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What Really Happened in San Bernardino?
Eyewitnesses: “Three Tall White Men”
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The CBS Evening News ran this interview.

This has been dropped down the memory hole.

So has this.

Note: he spoke of a black SUV. Note also that he got verbal confirmation from off-camera. This indicates that there were other eyewitnesses.

The only eyewitness identifications that I can find speak of three white men.

I looked at several published timelines of the shootings. You can, too. Search for “timeline,” “Farook,” “San Bernardino.” No victim identified the two suspects immediately after the shootings, which had ended by the time the police and firefighters arrived at 11:05 a.m. The police had no clues regarding Farook and his wife. The two were shot in a firefight at 3 p.m. They were in a black SUV . . . four hours after the attack.

Four hours. What were they doing during this time? Where were they?

The New York Daily News reported this: “The suspects had escaped the blood-spattered murder scene without swapping a single gunshot with the horde of law enforcement descending on the center, a social services facility for people with developmental disabilities.”

The SUV was spotted four hours later, two miles from the crime scene. How did the police find this SUV? The Daily News says only this: “a tip.”

Think about this. Two people shoot 35 people, and escape unnoticed the police. They then disappear for four hours. Then “a tip” informs the police of their whereabouts: two miles away from the crime scene.

Here is what the London Daily Mail reported.

As the police close in on the vehicle, which is traveling surprisingly slowly, it is not clear whether the gunshots heard are being fired by cops or by the suspects.

‘They’re killing that guy,’ the man taking the video shouts as he ducks for cover.

Just moments later, after the recording ended, police stopped the SUV and killed the two suspected shooters in a gun battle that left an officer injured.

Note: the report does not say that a policeman was shot, only injured.

Watch this video. There is an introduction by a reporter, then the video. As the SUV drives slowly down the street, the driver is turning the headlights off and on. Why? There is no shooting at this point. The SUV passes by. Then the shooting starts.

The post-shootout photo of the SUV shows the windshield riddled with bullet holes. These bullet holes came from in front of the SUV. The media report says this: they fired 76 rounds, while police fired 380.

Who did the counting? When? Who verified this?

How did they shoot at police from inside the SUV? For how long? How long would it take to fire 76 rounds with semi-automatics? This time includes replacing empty clips. We are supposed to believe that it took 380 rounds to kill them. If so, these are not sharpshooters.

The two are dead. So, there is no legal liability for naming them the killers. There is no “alleged” visible in the media. This ends all discussion. Of course they acted alone. Everyone knows this.

“What are you, a conspiracy theorist?” Yes, I am. We conspiracy theorists — revisionist historians — have a highly developed sense of smell, developed over years of sniffing around. We know when official accounts do not pass the smell test. This story does not pass it.

Here is what I have been waiting for: a forensics report that identifies some of the estimated 100 spent bullets at the massacre with at least one of the rifles recovered in the SUV. I have searched the Web for this report. I have not found it. Is this too much to ask of the authorities? You bet it is.

We need more unofficial investigations. We are not going to get any further official investigation. Case closed. “Move along. There’s nothing to see here.”

My advice: Don’t believe the first official government report. Suspend judgment. Keep snooping. Things are not always what they seem.

(Republished from LewRockwell by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    It sounds like Operation Gladio, where armed commandos would shoot up grocery stores and other public places:

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  2. Here we go again. Tower 7 was imploded by Halliburton and a hand held rocket launcher brought down that TWA flight. It’s kind of hard to peddle conspiracy theories when we have 2 dead killers, armed to the teeth with a digital trail of hatred. And just why would the SB cops and the Obama FBI protect “3 white men?” Loretta Lynch would give her firstborn (if she had a firstborn) for the chance to prosecute a trio of white devils.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    not that I know what happened in Cali

    but let me ask you Bragadocious.. what did bring down building seven?

    Office fires?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mamvq7LWqRU
    , @Ft
    I don't have any reason to suspect the braod general official narrative on Bernadino and the official descrpition of how towers ,and Pentagon and were attacked by the planes . Beyond that I don't believe anything governments says about 911 because bunch of people with clear motive had ignored the warnings before and used the shock to advance the mission that they were ideologically ,religiouly,culturally, and professionally trained to fight for and to exeute it at any cost for decades - redrawing the Middle East to sustain secure,and nurture Israel. Their job is remains unfinished according to their subsequent behavioral pattern in and out of power .
    . This is why the umbrage and hatred against Obama ,call for his death,insinuation that he might be killed because he is an apostate to Muslim as spread by some of their lying heavyweights among the Islamophobic neocon and visceral antagonism by neocon cum Netanyahu against Iran deal and visceral organic violent impulses to get whole Sunni hyped up against Shia through use of deceit,deception,fear tactics,and plain bribings with threat by Israel neocon,and left wing interventionist .

    TWA also belongs to that realm of unexplored cloud of uncertainty . The aviation industry has question - a lot and the NTSB investigators challenged the official version from day one . NTSB 's dissenting opinions were gagged under threat of discharge from duties and loss of benefit .
    , @Sojourner Truth
    The digital trail of hatred has now been disavowed by the FBI Director. Obviously what the facts really are is in flux. Weird about the apartment overrun by the media as well.
    , @WorkingClass

    And just why would the SB cops and the Obama FBI protect “3 white men?”
     
    You have inadvertently asked exactly the right question.
    , @Clyde
    Posters have mentioned false flag operations here eleven times. Hooray for conspiracy theories!! With the usual Unz.com posters running a few false flag operations themselves. The more states that legalize marijuana the more conspiracy theories we will get.
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  3. Vendetta says:

    This is trash. The paragraphs on the numbers of bullets fired are particularly revealing of their author’s ignorance. Yes, that many bullets is perfectly plausible. 167 bullets were fired to kill Bonnie and Clyde. Over 9,000 rounds were fired in the Symbionese Liberation Army shootout with the police. Look up the North Hollywood shootout. 1,100 rounds fired by the robbers, 650 by the police.

    How long does it take to fire 76 rounds from semi-automatic rifles? Under thirty seconds, if you have two people firing rifles. Particularly if they’re spraying bullets like fools, which the fact that no police officers were hit suggests.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert
    If both people in the SUV were firing the semi-automatic rifles, who was driving? Wouldn't it be easier to shoot at the tires?
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  4. Rurik says:
    @Bragadocious
    Here we go again. Tower 7 was imploded by Halliburton and a hand held rocket launcher brought down that TWA flight. It's kind of hard to peddle conspiracy theories when we have 2 dead killers, armed to the teeth with a digital trail of hatred. And just why would the SB cops and the Obama FBI protect "3 white men?" Loretta Lynch would give her firstborn (if she had a firstborn) for the chance to prosecute a trio of white devils.

    not that I know what happened in Cali

    but let me ask you Bragadocious.. what did bring down building seven?

    Office fires?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Also, the use of cell phones on 9/11 by passengers on the hijacked planes has been discovered to be untrue:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WJ9Lg7Zaw30#t=611
    , @Mr. Anon
    Metabunk WTC7

    "This is what a firefighter, who was there on that day, had to say:

    "Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan

    "A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good."

    Scroll down about halfway down the page to see pictures of the structural damage to WTC7 and the raging fire that "truthers" never bother to consider. So called "truthers" never look for any information (which information is readily found) that contradicts their narrative.

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  5. MEexpert says:
    @Vendetta
    This is trash. The paragraphs on the numbers of bullets fired are particularly revealing of their author's ignorance. Yes, that many bullets is perfectly plausible. 167 bullets were fired to kill Bonnie and Clyde. Over 9,000 rounds were fired in the Symbionese Liberation Army shootout with the police. Look up the North Hollywood shootout. 1,100 rounds fired by the robbers, 650 by the police.

    How long does it take to fire 76 rounds from semi-automatic rifles? Under thirty seconds, if you have two people firing rifles. Particularly if they're spraying bullets like fools, which the fact that no police officers were hit suggests.

    If both people in the SUV were firing the semi-automatic rifles, who was driving? Wouldn’t it be easier to shoot at the tires?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    No, it is not "easier" to shoot out the tires. That's a question almost as stupid as asking, "Wouldn't it be easier to just shoot them in the head instead of the chest?" No, it's not. A tire is one small part of a moving vehicle, and it is not easy to hit, particularly when the officers are firing from a moving vehicle of their own and when they themselves are under return fire from the suspects.

    Your other question? Either the car came to stop and the driver attempted to engage, or the passenger used both rifles, emptying one before grabbing the other and firing it as well.

    Yeah, how could they have fired 76 rounds that fast with a mere semi-auto?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9sNcq5jHFY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkZlO7hVTfw

    This writer is an idiot and depending on the people who listen to him to be just as ignorant as he is about firearms and shootouts.
    , @Anonymous
    Actually in the original report a 3rd suspect was detained. But then poof, they disappeared.
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  6. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Rurik
    not that I know what happened in Cali

    but let me ask you Bragadocious.. what did bring down building seven?

    Office fires?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mamvq7LWqRU

    Also, the use of cell phones on 9/11 by passengers on the hijacked planes has been discovered to be untrue:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    yes but that is all really a distraction at this point

    there is plenty of proof that 911 was orchestrated by Israel with complicity at the highest levels of our government and media

    the cell phone calls like the "let's roll" hero Mark Bingham calling his mom and saying 'hi mom, this is Mark Bingham, you believe me don't you?' are superficial chafe

    that they reported building seven falling before it did is proof of advance knowledge, and that is proof that it was orchestrated by elements inside the US government. Of course not your local post office worker and possibly not even president chimp at the time, who they probably figured was way too stupid to trust with anything more salient than which golf course he'd be on the next day. But Cheney knew and was involved. That's all the false flags we should need.

    Boston bombing

    Sandy hook

    911

    all while the feds were running drills for exactly such scenarios. All just a coincidence.

    but 911 was the biggie that they've used to trash our Constitutional rights and wage Eternal WarⓊ

    and we have proof that they lied and that the American people did not get their guy when the SEALs went in and shot "Osama". That too was an obvious lie.

    So if the American people are unable to wrap their heads around the fact that modern steel frame buildings don't just plop into their basements like a house of cards as soon as there's an office fire, then no amount of untangling 'conspiracy theories' are going to do a nickel's bit of good.

    we don't need to speculate about 911

    we have the proof

    the people who handed the BBC the script describing how building seven fell, knew it was going to fall

    the only ones who could have possible have known that are the people who wired it to implode

    this is not rocket science, it is obvious to a child

    the only reason people resist the obvious is because it's just too terrible for them to accept

    because it means that our country is run by straight-out traitorous psychopaths and mass-murdering criminals

    and they have been using that singularly unprecedented crime to commit exponentially more crimes because they counted on the American people being too bovine and 'good' to even comprehend that their leaders could be that bad

    but they are

    and it's glaringly obvious for those who have the moral courage and intellectual honesty to look at it all with open eyes and hard reason

    I know it's easier for them to put their heads in the sand, and when you consider what was done and why and how we've all been used as fools and dupes and gotten thousands of young American soldiers killed while slaughtering and maiming millions of innocents.. the consequences of accepting the evidence in front of your eyes is heavy duty. Transformational even. It means the scales must drop from your eyes and you must do a Neo and leave the Matrix behind.

    But the alternative is far, far worse. Because as we toss away our sacred and hard won rights to the federal government (who specifically those rights were intended to protect us from) who perpetrated that crime and are writing new laws (NDAA) that give them the power to black bag any American for any reason they want and rendition you off shore never to be heard from again, they aren't doing that to protect you from Osama. They're doing that to "protect" you from people like me and others who are speaking the truth (with no donate button on a website or reason to lie). People who want you to think, and stop chewing cud and tossing away all our rights and the rights of our children and grandchildren and handing them over to the tender mercies of psychopaths who plot crimes like 911.

    Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe building seven fell in some anomaly and they shipped off all the evidence to be melted down in China because it would just be too hurtful to figure out what really happened to that building. Maybe it was Osama after all and they just didn't want to show any videos of his death or pictures of his body because it would just be too hurtful. Maybe so. But if they're lying, the stakes are just too high to simply take their world for it, no?

    We already know they lied about taking us to war in Viet Nam. We know they lied about taking us to war in both world wars. They lie in fact about everything, don't they? Why should we believe them now as they're on the brink of imposing an Orwellian nightmare on your children and grandchildren?

    would not a tiny bit of skepticism be warranted?

    lies about Benghazi

    lies about WMD

    lies, lies, lies. All day long every day- lies

    but the most significant and disastrous atrocity committed on our soil with red flags everywhere, but we should all accept that on this one, they're certainly telling us the whole truth on this one! They would never lie about something like this!
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  7. jon says:

    I see that this is a reprint, is there any chance the author will actually see comments made on this site? In any event, these are my thoughts:

    1. The only eyewitness identifications that I can find speak of three white men.

    Eyewitness accounts are notoriously bad, so I don’t put much stock that they thought a couple of Middle Easterners, dressed head to toe in black, were actually white (in fact, they technically are under current Census classification). Likewise, I am not surprised that they thought a woman shooting up a holiday party was a man. That’s just where the mind naturally goes, and these people had few visual cues to go on given how the shooters were dressed.

    On the other hand, the fact that they claimed to see three people is troubling. Even as bad as eyewitness testimony can be, I don’t think these two witnesses would conjure up a non-existent third shooter in their minds. This is your best point, in my opinion.

    2. They fired 76 rounds, while police fired 380. Who did the counting? When? Who verified this?

    The police would presumably keep a close count on their own ammo, so figuring out how many rounds were fired is simple math – amount issued minus amount remaining. For the newlyweds, I would guess it’s just a matter of counting shell casings. May undercount slightly, but also pretty simple.

    3. We are supposed to believe that it took 380 rounds to kill them. If so, these are not sharpshooters.

    If around five times as many cops were involved (that’s just 5×2=10), then we would expect that they might fire around five times as many rounds. And would you stop shooting at someone who was shooting at you, just to check if they were dead yet? Also, if they are faking some part of this, but the number of rounds used is somehow unbelievable, why wouldn’t they also fake the count?

    As I said above, your best point is the missing third shooter. Focus on that, the rest of these points make you sound a little unhinged and leave you open to dismissals like that by Bragadocious above.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    They were Pakistani i.e. South Asian, not Middle Eastern. South Asians tend to be darker than Middle Easterners, and their photographs reveal them to be 2 darkly complexioned South Asians who would not be confused for 3 tall athletic white men.
    , @The Alarmist
    Reminds me of the old joke,

    Q: Who fired the shot that killed Musollini?
    A: 4,000 Italian marksmen.

    The average cop has not been in a firefight ... letting hundreds of bullets fly in the hopes that one will strike the target is plausible.
    , @ltlee
    I find it odd that at first all reports said three gunmen. But after the couple were killed, no one talked about the third gunman.

    Also:
    http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/12/eyewitness-to-san-bernardino-says-it-wasnt-couple/

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  8. Vendetta says:
    @MEexpert
    If both people in the SUV were firing the semi-automatic rifles, who was driving? Wouldn't it be easier to shoot at the tires?

    No, it is not “easier” to shoot out the tires. That’s a question almost as stupid as asking, “Wouldn’t it be easier to just shoot them in the head instead of the chest?” No, it’s not. A tire is one small part of a moving vehicle, and it is not easy to hit, particularly when the officers are firing from a moving vehicle of their own and when they themselves are under return fire from the suspects.

    Your other question? Either the car came to stop and the driver attempted to engage, or the passenger used both rifles, emptying one before grabbing the other and firing it as well.

    Yeah, how could they have fired 76 rounds that fast with a mere semi-auto?

    This writer is an idiot and depending on the people who listen to him to be just as ignorant as he is about firearms and shootouts.

    Read More
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  9. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @jon
    I see that this is a reprint, is there any chance the author will actually see comments made on this site? In any event, these are my thoughts:

    1. The only eyewitness identifications that I can find speak of three white men.

    Eyewitness accounts are notoriously bad, so I don't put much stock that they thought a couple of Middle Easterners, dressed head to toe in black, were actually white (in fact, they technically are under current Census classification). Likewise, I am not surprised that they thought a woman shooting up a holiday party was a man. That's just where the mind naturally goes, and these people had few visual cues to go on given how the shooters were dressed.

    On the other hand, the fact that they claimed to see three people is troubling. Even as bad as eyewitness testimony can be, I don't think these two witnesses would conjure up a non-existent third shooter in their minds. This is your best point, in my opinion.

    2. They fired 76 rounds, while police fired 380. Who did the counting? When? Who verified this?

    The police would presumably keep a close count on their own ammo, so figuring out how many rounds were fired is simple math - amount issued minus amount remaining. For the newlyweds, I would guess it's just a matter of counting shell casings. May undercount slightly, but also pretty simple.

    3. We are supposed to believe that it took 380 rounds to kill them. If so, these are not sharpshooters.

    If around five times as many cops were involved (that's just 5x2=10), then we would expect that they might fire around five times as many rounds. And would you stop shooting at someone who was shooting at you, just to check if they were dead yet? Also, if they are faking some part of this, but the number of rounds used is somehow unbelievable, why wouldn't they also fake the count?

    As I said above, your best point is the missing third shooter. Focus on that, the rest of these points make you sound a little unhinged and leave you open to dismissals like that by Bragadocious above.

    They were Pakistani i.e. South Asian, not Middle Eastern. South Asians tend to be darker than Middle Easterners, and their photographs reveal them to be 2 darkly complexioned South Asians who would not be confused for 3 tall athletic white men.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jon

    They were Pakistani i.e. South Asian, not Middle Eastern. South Asians tend to be darker than Middle Easterners
     
    Mea culpa - you are right that they are South Asian, and that South Asians are generally darker than Middle Easterners. But I still think that, given how the shooters were dressed, it's not improbable for the witnesses to have mis-guessed their race.

    The focus should be on that missing third shooter.
    , @jackson
    Farook was probably a Pakistani Arab. There are plenty of Arabs in Pakistan, Farook and Saeed are Arab names, and the daughter was also given an Arab rather than Pakistani name.
    , @bomag
    Most people, when they say "white", mean "not black". Unless someone is distinctly African American, the default is to see them as white.

    The number discrepancy is interesting, but if a conspiracy is so complete that it has totally co-opted local and fed law enforcement, they could easily have piled up the proper number of bullet riddled bodies to allay such suspicions; and if the conspirators are so secret and all powerful that they let this number discrepancy stand just to mock us, why even run the event in the first place? The conspirators can evidently get and do whatever they want, so these events must just be for their entertainment.
    , @Alden
    Look at the pictures of the couple. They had fair, not dark skin. Anyway, since they are neither East Asian or African the natural assumption is White or White or Hispanic . In situations like that it's impossible for witnesses to be accurate.
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  10. jon says:
    @Anonymous
    They were Pakistani i.e. South Asian, not Middle Eastern. South Asians tend to be darker than Middle Easterners, and their photographs reveal them to be 2 darkly complexioned South Asians who would not be confused for 3 tall athletic white men.

    They were Pakistani i.e. South Asian, not Middle Eastern. South Asians tend to be darker than Middle Easterners

    Mea culpa – you are right that they are South Asian, and that South Asians are generally darker than Middle Easterners. But I still think that, given how the shooters were dressed, it’s not improbable for the witnesses to have mis-guessed their race.

    The focus should be on that missing third shooter.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Karl
    >>>>> South Asians are generally darker than Middle Easterners

    Did you never see a picture of Egyptian President Sadat?

    Did you never shoot the shit with Saudi guys in a strip bar in Bahrain, or at a Saudi Navy exercise?

    Arabs are often VERY dark skinned.


    On the other hand, Huma Abedin's skin color is quite common of real ethnic Pakistanis.

    How do I know? Well, Pakistani frigates in the Gulf don't have water-makers; they have to receive potable water from allied nations. And (in real life) the Pakistani Navy Officers trust Israeli-operated distillers rather more than they do Saudi-operated ones......
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  11. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    If other people did the shootings, how did Farook and Malik end up being found with semi-automatic weapons in their SUV? What were those thousands of rounds for those weapons doing in their apartment? How did that pledge to the leader of ISIL end up on their Facebook page?

    They look guilty as hell to me. Go google Occam’s Razor and start applying it. It’ll save you strain and hassle.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sojourner Truth
    FBI now says no pledge on Facebook.
    , @boogerbently
    The media lies.
    The media spreads the manure the govt dictates.
    The media has it's own liberal agenda.
    Who's to say the pics we saw on TV are the two shot ?
    WHO said there were 3 white men ? (Forget the "white" concentrate on the "3")
    Maybe they are down playing the 3 while the 3rd is being sought.

    Did you see the smoke from the grassy knoll ???
    , @musings
    I guess the question has to be what happened in the intervening four hours - perhaps enough harassment and threats to people already in radar to get them to act like they needed to get away, and take lots of weapons with them. Thus, the actual killers themselves, if insiders in the police could do what has been done a lot in the Mideast wars: poke the people with a stick and get them to break cover so they could be killed.

    But I don't believe any of it. I am just proposing an explanatory scenario. I have no basis for belief in any of it, no basis, that is, of solid fact. It's all hearsay.
    , @ron
    Anon. You are going on the official explanation that are not substantiated by independent sources. How can a 90 lb female carry weapons and a large amount of ammunition while wearing heavy body armour? not credible. All witnesses said the gunmen wore military clothing. One of the deceased was wearing shorts. Anyone can post on Facebook on behalf of another person. That is not a strong argument. Where were they for four hours? They should have been a 100 miles from the crime scene? I am not offering a conspiracy theory. You are offering a ''coincidence'' theory which is just as bad.You need to be more critical
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  12. Nico says:

    from LewRockwell.com

    One more illustration of why our parents paid such close attention to the company we kept.

    Moving on with my life now.

    Read More
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  13. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    The original police ‘BOLO’–Be On the Lookout–for the suspects named three WHITE guys.

    #BREAKING: Reports of an active shooter in San Bernardino. Police looking for 3 white males dressed in military gear. At least 20 injured

    Wintnesses to the attack saw three white guys shooting. Yet several hours later, the MSM goes into full scream mode and says it was Farook. BTW, a Muslim would spell Farook with a ‘Q’ as in Farooq.

    As for the people screaming that they don’t want the truth, let them scream.

    Read More
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  14. Karl says:
    @jon

    They were Pakistani i.e. South Asian, not Middle Eastern. South Asians tend to be darker than Middle Easterners
     
    Mea culpa - you are right that they are South Asian, and that South Asians are generally darker than Middle Easterners. But I still think that, given how the shooters were dressed, it's not improbable for the witnesses to have mis-guessed their race.

    The focus should be on that missing third shooter.

    >>>>> South Asians are generally darker than Middle Easterners

    Did you never see a picture of Egyptian President Sadat?

    Did you never shoot the shit with Saudi guys in a strip bar in Bahrain, or at a Saudi Navy exercise?

    Arabs are often VERY dark skinned.

    On the other hand, Huma Abedin’s skin color is quite common of real ethnic Pakistanis.

    How do I know? Well, Pakistani frigates in the Gulf don’t have water-makers; they have to receive potable water from allied nations. And (in real life) the Pakistani Navy Officers trust Israeli-operated distillers rather more than they do Saudi-operated ones……

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes, I'm familiar with Anwar Sadat, who incidentally was of Nubian descent:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_sadat#Early_life_and_revolutionary_activities

    Anwar Sadat was born on 25 December 1918 in Mit Abu al-Kum, al-Minufiyah, Egypt to a poor Nubian family, one of 13 brothers and sisters.[6] One of his brothers, Atef Sadat, later became a pilot and was killed in action during the October War of 1973.[7] His father, Anwar Mohammed El Sadat was an Upper Egyptian, and his mother, Sit Al-Berain, was a Sudanese from her father.[8][9] Thus, he faced insults by his Arab opponents in Egypt for not looking "Egyptian enough" and "Nasser's black poodle."[10]
     
    And yes, I'm familiar with lighter skinned Pakistanis, and darker skinned Arabs, who often have African ancestry like Anwar Sadat and Bandar "Bush" bin Sultan, whose mother was Ethiopian.

    In general, Pakistanis tend to be darker than Arabs.
    , @Kristen
    Color of skin in Arab world is, in part, a function of social class. So, yes, light-skinned Pakis abound in their own little social bubble, one from which Huma obviously comes.
    , @jon

    Did you never shoot the shit with Saudi guys in a strip bar in Bahrain, or at a Saudi Navy exercise?
     
    Hahaha, no I never did. Do you just assume that most people have had this experience?

    In any event, we have gotten sidetracked from my original point, which is simply this: if you are under attack from shooters dressed head-to-toe in black, misidentifying their race is not an unexpected occurrence, and should not be the basis for a conspiracy theory.
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  15. Is there any conspiracy theory where the official report says they were white men but the theorists say they were something else?

    Are there any conspiracy theories that don’t move up the totem pole of special victimhood status?

    Now this is a tremendous coincidence which needs explaining. Don’t truth the first revionist ‘historian.’ Lol

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alfa158
    Not a coincidence. I am old enough to have been around during the first Kennedy assassination and have spent 50 years watching the conspiracy nuttiness bloom and develop. A large proportion have one thing in common, diverting the blame from favored groups to one particular group of bogeymen:

    JFK: Murdered by Cuba and Soviet sympathizing Communist. Conspiracy fantasy; murdered by Evil Right Wing White Men in CIA, Mafia, FBI etc.

    RFK: Murdered by pro PLO Arab. Conspiracy fantasy: murdered by Evil Right Wing White Men in Chief Parker's LAPD.

    9/11: Mass murder by Arab Muslims. Conspiracy Fantasy: Mass murder by Evil Right Wing White Men in CIA and Mossad.

    San Berdoo massacre: Mass shooting by two Pakistani Muslim terrorists. Conspiracy Fantasy: Mass shooting by three Evil Right Wing White Men.

    Another thing that is interesting is the speed with which these get propagated and sustained. It is like there are rapid response PR teams poised to spring into concerted action as soon as one of these atrocities happen and a alarm bell is rung, but that would be another conspiracy. The Left is simply well indoctrinated, on the same page, and everyone knows what to do without coordination.
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  16. Ft says:
    @Bragadocious
    Here we go again. Tower 7 was imploded by Halliburton and a hand held rocket launcher brought down that TWA flight. It's kind of hard to peddle conspiracy theories when we have 2 dead killers, armed to the teeth with a digital trail of hatred. And just why would the SB cops and the Obama FBI protect "3 white men?" Loretta Lynch would give her firstborn (if she had a firstborn) for the chance to prosecute a trio of white devils.

    I don’t have any reason to suspect the braod general official narrative on Bernadino and the official descrpition of how towers ,and Pentagon and were attacked by the planes . Beyond that I don’t believe anything governments says about 911 because bunch of people with clear motive had ignored the warnings before and used the shock to advance the mission that they were ideologically ,religiouly,culturally, and professionally trained to fight for and to exeute it at any cost for decades – redrawing the Middle East to sustain secure,and nurture Israel. Their job is remains unfinished according to their subsequent behavioral pattern in and out of power .
    . This is why the umbrage and hatred against Obama ,call for his death,insinuation that he might be killed because he is an apostate to Muslim as spread by some of their lying heavyweights among the Islamophobic neocon and visceral antagonism by neocon cum Netanyahu against Iran deal and visceral organic violent impulses to get whole Sunni hyped up against Shia through use of deceit,deception,fear tactics,and plain bribings with threat by Israel neocon,and left wing interventionist .

    TWA also belongs to that realm of unexplored cloud of uncertainty . The aviation industry has question – a lot and the NTSB investigators challenged the official version from day one . NTSB ‘s dissenting opinions were gagged under threat of discharge from duties and loss of benefit .

    Read More
    • Replies: @International Jew
    Well said; that makes at least as much sense as the article itself.
    Could San Berdoo have been a Mossad false flag operation? You should explore that angle.
    , @Pontius
    I often thought the TWA story was fishy.

    Wouldn't the vapor inside an airplane's fuel tank be way above the UEL for a spark to cause an explosion?

    Makes you wonder about all the fuel pumps and fuel level senders inside millions of automobiles wouldn't it?

    As far as jet fuel and collapsing building goes, I have far less concern about the truth of that. I remember a mutli-level office building fire that occurred when I was a kid, and the heavy I-beams in that structure were bent and twisted like spaghetti from a run of the mill building materials fire.

    , @TJ2
    Published on Feb 25, 2015

    DRONE A-3 Skywarrior 9/11 PENTAGON ATTACK (Slow Motion) One can see a Small White Raytheon Jet ( Douglas A-3 Skywarrior ) as it comes in low to the earth ! Fires a Missile Blasting a Hole in the Wall, right before the A-3 Impacts against the Pentagon' Notice the Smoke Trail from the Missile hits the Pentagon .........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gCcfvAzGzo
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  17. @Bragadocious
    Here we go again. Tower 7 was imploded by Halliburton and a hand held rocket launcher brought down that TWA flight. It's kind of hard to peddle conspiracy theories when we have 2 dead killers, armed to the teeth with a digital trail of hatred. And just why would the SB cops and the Obama FBI protect "3 white men?" Loretta Lynch would give her firstborn (if she had a firstborn) for the chance to prosecute a trio of white devils.

    The digital trail of hatred has now been disavowed by the FBI Director. Obviously what the facts really are is in flux. Weird about the apartment overrun by the media as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bragadocious
    Nope, not disavowed. Read the stories again. What he said was she didn't publicly pledge allegiance to ISIS. But she and the Pakistani incel loser were sending all sorts of private FB love notes involving jihad. They should release the full contents of these messages.
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  18. @Anon
    If other people did the shootings, how did Farook and Malik end up being found with semi-automatic weapons in their SUV? What were those thousands of rounds for those weapons doing in their apartment? How did that pledge to the leader of ISIL end up on their Facebook page?

    They look guilty as hell to me. Go google Occam's Razor and start applying it. It'll save you strain and hassle.

    FBI now says no pledge on Facebook.

    Read More
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  19. It’s guys like this who give conspiracy theory a bad name. His “arguments” suggest that he doesn’t know squat about (1) the many studies on the unreliability of eyewitness testimony, (2) the types of errors that tend to characterize such testimony, (3) standard police techniques, i.e., inventorying police ammo and counting shell casings after a shooting, (4) the characteristics of semi-automatic weapons, and (5) the dynamics of a firefight. I’ll give credit where credit is due, however: He’s a master at ignoring/obfuscating anything that might lead him to rethink his hypothesis. OTOH, I’m not sure whether this is a result of his cleverness, his ignorance, or his obstinate indifference to reality.

    Read More
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  20. I first heard of Gary North before the Y2K catastrophe. I read an interview with some “historian” named North who was predicting, with near certainty, widespread collapse, starvation, basically the end of our civilization. He left his web pages up after the Great Y2K Collapse, I don’t know if they’re still there.

    Then I googled (Google was new then) and found that North had years earlier confidently predicted the spread of AIDS to heterosexuals, an epidemic so widespread it would be the end of our civilization.

    Bottom line, the guy’s a joke.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ft
    Again one can hype up. This is not qualitative but quanta give.
    Y2 K was tackled by government and private resources and the resources used were not small in magnitude.
    AIDS had the potential but for the education and th treatment
    , @Anonymous
    And you're a Jew.
    , @International Jew

    Bottom line, the guy’s a joke.
     
    His resume is perfect for unz.com though.
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  21. Wally says: • Website

    Remember this guy? Another man who was described as ‘white’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    He wasn't described as "white" by eyewitnesses. He was described as "white" by the media after the event. Just as the suspects in San Bernardino weren't described as a Pakistani man and woman by eyewitnesses, but as 3 tall athletic white men.
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  22. Ft says:
    @Aaron Gross
    I first heard of Gary North before the Y2K catastrophe. I read an interview with some "historian" named North who was predicting, with near certainty, widespread collapse, starvation, basically the end of our civilization. He left his web pages up after the Great Y2K Collapse, I don't know if they're still there.

    Then I googled (Google was new then) and found that North had years earlier confidently predicted the spread of AIDS to heterosexuals, an epidemic so widespread it would be the end of our civilization.

    Bottom line, the guy's a joke.

    Again one can hype up. This is not qualitative but quanta give.
    Y2 K was tackled by government and private resources and the resources used were not small in magnitude.
    AIDS had the potential but for the education and th treatment

    Read More
    • Replies: @ben tillman

    AIDS had the potential but for the education and th treatment
     
    I can't believe I am taking Aaron Gross's side of an argument, but he is right, and you are wrong about heterosexual AIDS. Transmission from woman to man is simply to inefficient to allow the HIV to spread.
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  23. @Sojourner Truth
    The digital trail of hatred has now been disavowed by the FBI Director. Obviously what the facts really are is in flux. Weird about the apartment overrun by the media as well.

    Nope, not disavowed. Read the stories again. What he said was she didn’t publicly pledge allegiance to ISIS. But she and the Pakistani incel loser were sending all sorts of private FB love notes involving jihad. They should release the full contents of these messages.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    But she and the Pakistani incel loser were sending all sorts of private FB love notes involving jihad. They should release the full contents of these messages.

     

    They can just say anything at all and you'll just accept it as a fact, right?
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  24. @Bragadocious
    Here we go again. Tower 7 was imploded by Halliburton and a hand held rocket launcher brought down that TWA flight. It's kind of hard to peddle conspiracy theories when we have 2 dead killers, armed to the teeth with a digital trail of hatred. And just why would the SB cops and the Obama FBI protect "3 white men?" Loretta Lynch would give her firstborn (if she had a firstborn) for the chance to prosecute a trio of white devils.

    And just why would the SB cops and the Obama FBI protect “3 white men?”

    You have inadvertently asked exactly the right question.

    Read More
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  25. Rurik says:
    @Anonymous
    Also, the use of cell phones on 9/11 by passengers on the hijacked planes has been discovered to be untrue:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WJ9Lg7Zaw30#t=611

    yes but that is all really a distraction at this point

    there is plenty of proof that 911 was orchestrated by Israel with complicity at the highest levels of our government and media

    the cell phone calls like the “let’s roll” hero Mark Bingham calling his mom and saying ‘hi mom, this is Mark Bingham, you believe me don’t you?’ are superficial chafe

    that they reported building seven falling before it did is proof of advance knowledge, and that is proof that it was orchestrated by elements inside the US government. Of course not your local post office worker and possibly not even president chimp at the time, who they probably figured was way too stupid to trust with anything more salient than which golf course he’d be on the next day. But Cheney knew and was involved. That’s all the false flags we should need.

    Boston bombing

    Sandy hook

    911

    all while the feds were running drills for exactly such scenarios. All just a coincidence.

    but 911 was the biggie that they’ve used to trash our Constitutional rights and wage Eternal WarⓊ

    and we have proof that they lied and that the American people did not get their guy when the SEALs went in and shot “Osama”. That too was an obvious lie.

    So if the American people are unable to wrap their heads around the fact that modern steel frame buildings don’t just plop into their basements like a house of cards as soon as there’s an office fire, then no amount of untangling ‘conspiracy theories’ are going to do a nickel’s bit of good.

    we don’t need to speculate about 911

    we have the proof

    the people who handed the BBC the script describing how building seven fell, knew it was going to fall

    the only ones who could have possible have known that are the people who wired it to implode

    this is not rocket science, it is obvious to a child

    the only reason people resist the obvious is because it’s just too terrible for them to accept

    because it means that our country is run by straight-out traitorous psychopaths and mass-murdering criminals

    and they have been using that singularly unprecedented crime to commit exponentially more crimes because they counted on the American people being too bovine and ‘good’ to even comprehend that their leaders could be that bad

    but they are

    and it’s glaringly obvious for those who have the moral courage and intellectual honesty to look at it all with open eyes and hard reason

    I know it’s easier for them to put their heads in the sand, and when you consider what was done and why and how we’ve all been used as fools and dupes and gotten thousands of young American soldiers killed while slaughtering and maiming millions of innocents.. the consequences of accepting the evidence in front of your eyes is heavy duty. Transformational even. It means the scales must drop from your eyes and you must do a Neo and leave the Matrix behind.

    But the alternative is far, far worse. Because as we toss away our sacred and hard won rights to the federal government (who specifically those rights were intended to protect us from) who perpetrated that crime and are writing new laws (NDAA) that give them the power to black bag any American for any reason they want and rendition you off shore never to be heard from again, they aren’t doing that to protect you from Osama. They’re doing that to “protect” you from people like me and others who are speaking the truth (with no donate button on a website or reason to lie). People who want you to think, and stop chewing cud and tossing away all our rights and the rights of our children and grandchildren and handing them over to the tender mercies of psychopaths who plot crimes like 911.

    Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe building seven fell in some anomaly and they shipped off all the evidence to be melted down in China because it would just be too hurtful to figure out what really happened to that building. Maybe it was Osama after all and they just didn’t want to show any videos of his death or pictures of his body because it would just be too hurtful. Maybe so. But if they’re lying, the stakes are just too high to simply take their world for it, no?

    We already know they lied about taking us to war in Viet Nam. We know they lied about taking us to war in both world wars. They lie in fact about everything, don’t they? Why should we believe them now as they’re on the brink of imposing an Orwellian nightmare on your children and grandchildren?

    would not a tiny bit of skepticism be warranted?

    lies about Benghazi

    lies about WMD

    lies, lies, lies. All day long every day- lies

    but the most significant and disastrous atrocity committed on our soil with red flags everywhere, but we should all accept that on this one, they’re certainly telling us the whole truth on this one! They would never lie about something like this!

    Read More
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  26. Alfa158 says:
    @This Is Our Home
    Is there any conspiracy theory where the official report says they were white men but the theorists say they were something else?

    Are there any conspiracy theories that don't move up the totem pole of special victimhood status?

    Now this is a tremendous coincidence which needs explaining. Don't truth the first revionist 'historian.' Lol

    Not a coincidence. I am old enough to have been around during the first Kennedy assassination and have spent 50 years watching the conspiracy nuttiness bloom and develop. A large proportion have one thing in common, diverting the blame from favored groups to one particular group of bogeymen:

    JFK: Murdered by Cuba and Soviet sympathizing Communist. Conspiracy fantasy; murdered by Evil Right Wing White Men in CIA, Mafia, FBI etc.

    RFK: Murdered by pro PLO Arab. Conspiracy fantasy: murdered by Evil Right Wing White Men in Chief Parker’s LAPD.

    9/11: Mass murder by Arab Muslims. Conspiracy Fantasy: Mass murder by Evil Right Wing White Men in CIA and Mossad.

    San Berdoo massacre: Mass shooting by two Pakistani Muslim terrorists. Conspiracy Fantasy: Mass shooting by three Evil Right Wing White Men.

    Another thing that is interesting is the speed with which these get propagated and sustained. It is like there are rapid response PR teams poised to spring into concerted action as soon as one of these atrocities happen and a alarm bell is rung, but that would be another conspiracy. The Left is simply well indoctrinated, on the same page, and everyone knows what to do without coordination.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    "...well indoctrinated, on the same page, and everyone knows what to do without coordination"

    Kind of like the sayanim, eh?
    , @Anonymous
    How is this different from the views of right-wingers at the Unz Review and elsewhere? They tend to believe for example that the Iraq War was a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, that leftism is a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, that immigration is a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, etc.
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  27. @Ft
    I don't have any reason to suspect the braod general official narrative on Bernadino and the official descrpition of how towers ,and Pentagon and were attacked by the planes . Beyond that I don't believe anything governments says about 911 because bunch of people with clear motive had ignored the warnings before and used the shock to advance the mission that they were ideologically ,religiouly,culturally, and professionally trained to fight for and to exeute it at any cost for decades - redrawing the Middle East to sustain secure,and nurture Israel. Their job is remains unfinished according to their subsequent behavioral pattern in and out of power .
    . This is why the umbrage and hatred against Obama ,call for his death,insinuation that he might be killed because he is an apostate to Muslim as spread by some of their lying heavyweights among the Islamophobic neocon and visceral antagonism by neocon cum Netanyahu against Iran deal and visceral organic violent impulses to get whole Sunni hyped up against Shia through use of deceit,deception,fear tactics,and plain bribings with threat by Israel neocon,and left wing interventionist .

    TWA also belongs to that realm of unexplored cloud of uncertainty . The aviation industry has question - a lot and the NTSB investigators challenged the official version from day one . NTSB 's dissenting opinions were gagged under threat of discharge from duties and loss of benefit .

    Well said; that makes at least as much sense as the article itself.
    Could San Berdoo have been a Mossad false flag operation? You should explore that angle.

    Read More
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  28. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Karl
    >>>>> South Asians are generally darker than Middle Easterners

    Did you never see a picture of Egyptian President Sadat?

    Did you never shoot the shit with Saudi guys in a strip bar in Bahrain, or at a Saudi Navy exercise?

    Arabs are often VERY dark skinned.


    On the other hand, Huma Abedin's skin color is quite common of real ethnic Pakistanis.

    How do I know? Well, Pakistani frigates in the Gulf don't have water-makers; they have to receive potable water from allied nations. And (in real life) the Pakistani Navy Officers trust Israeli-operated distillers rather more than they do Saudi-operated ones......

    Yes, I’m familiar with Anwar Sadat, who incidentally was of Nubian descent:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_sadat#Early_life_and_revolutionary_activities

    Anwar Sadat was born on 25 December 1918 in Mit Abu al-Kum, al-Minufiyah, Egypt to a poor Nubian family, one of 13 brothers and sisters.[6] One of his brothers, Atef Sadat, later became a pilot and was killed in action during the October War of 1973.[7] His father, Anwar Mohammed El Sadat was an Upper Egyptian, and his mother, Sit Al-Berain, was a Sudanese from her father.[8][9] Thus, he faced insults by his Arab opponents in Egypt for not looking “Egyptian enough” and “Nasser’s black poodle.”[10]

    And yes, I’m familiar with lighter skinned Pakistanis, and darker skinned Arabs, who often have African ancestry like Anwar Sadat and Bandar “Bush” bin Sultan, whose mother was Ethiopian.

    In general, Pakistanis tend to be darker than Arabs.

    Read More
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  29. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    Remember this guy? Another man who was described as 'white'.

    https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/files/2012/12/ZimmermanBloodyNose-224x300.jpg

    He wasn’t described as “white” by eyewitnesses. He was described as “white” by the media after the event. Just as the suspects in San Bernardino weren’t described as a Pakistani man and woman by eyewitnesses, but as 3 tall athletic white men.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    As if there's a difference.

    Zimmerman was called a 'white' man by those who wish he was. Same as San Bernardino.
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  30. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Aaron Gross
    I first heard of Gary North before the Y2K catastrophe. I read an interview with some "historian" named North who was predicting, with near certainty, widespread collapse, starvation, basically the end of our civilization. He left his web pages up after the Great Y2K Collapse, I don't know if they're still there.

    Then I googled (Google was new then) and found that North had years earlier confidently predicted the spread of AIDS to heterosexuals, an epidemic so widespread it would be the end of our civilization.

    Bottom line, the guy's a joke.

    And you’re a Jew.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Aaron Gross
    And you’re a Jew.

    You'd better watch it, boy, or you'll be one of the first that we put in the FEMA camps.
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  31. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @MEexpert
    If both people in the SUV were firing the semi-automatic rifles, who was driving? Wouldn't it be easier to shoot at the tires?

    Actually in the original report a 3rd suspect was detained. But then poof, they disappeared.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    Released, not disappeared.
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  32. Kristen says:
    @Karl
    >>>>> South Asians are generally darker than Middle Easterners

    Did you never see a picture of Egyptian President Sadat?

    Did you never shoot the shit with Saudi guys in a strip bar in Bahrain, or at a Saudi Navy exercise?

    Arabs are often VERY dark skinned.


    On the other hand, Huma Abedin's skin color is quite common of real ethnic Pakistanis.

    How do I know? Well, Pakistani frigates in the Gulf don't have water-makers; they have to receive potable water from allied nations. And (in real life) the Pakistani Navy Officers trust Israeli-operated distillers rather more than they do Saudi-operated ones......

    Color of skin in Arab world is, in part, a function of social class. So, yes, light-skinned Pakis abound in their own little social bubble, one from which Huma obviously comes.

    Read More
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  33. RobinG says:
    @Alfa158
    Not a coincidence. I am old enough to have been around during the first Kennedy assassination and have spent 50 years watching the conspiracy nuttiness bloom and develop. A large proportion have one thing in common, diverting the blame from favored groups to one particular group of bogeymen:

    JFK: Murdered by Cuba and Soviet sympathizing Communist. Conspiracy fantasy; murdered by Evil Right Wing White Men in CIA, Mafia, FBI etc.

    RFK: Murdered by pro PLO Arab. Conspiracy fantasy: murdered by Evil Right Wing White Men in Chief Parker's LAPD.

    9/11: Mass murder by Arab Muslims. Conspiracy Fantasy: Mass murder by Evil Right Wing White Men in CIA and Mossad.

    San Berdoo massacre: Mass shooting by two Pakistani Muslim terrorists. Conspiracy Fantasy: Mass shooting by three Evil Right Wing White Men.

    Another thing that is interesting is the speed with which these get propagated and sustained. It is like there are rapid response PR teams poised to spring into concerted action as soon as one of these atrocities happen and a alarm bell is rung, but that would be another conspiracy. The Left is simply well indoctrinated, on the same page, and everyone knows what to do without coordination.

    “…well indoctrinated, on the same page, and everyone knows what to do without coordination”

    Kind of like the sayanim, eh?

    Read More
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  34. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:

    The US Government did not organize, and carry out 9/11, and all other post-9/11 terrorists attacks..All of these terrorists were carried out by Muslim Male Yoots…And these terrorist attacks was quite easy to pull off in a Nation of emasculated White Male ESPN-Fantasy Football jocksniffers who weren’t paying attention to the fact that the Democratic Party was importing its highly racialized nonwhite voting block from the Muslim World.

    9/11, and the terrorist attacks that came afterwards, were a direct consequence of the Democratic Party importing its voting bloc with the very open intent of having high fertility highly racialized Muslim Breeding pairs voting fucking Whitey into a violently persecuted racial minority on Nov 3 20116…think current NYS Governor Andew Cuomo.

    The 9/11 conspiracy nuttery attracts two types of White Males1)psychotic delusional White Males on psychotropics with enlarged breasts…and 2)Treasonous White Males such as Paul Craig Roberts who desire the racial death of The Historic Native Born White American Majority.

    The real mortal existential threat of the very rapidly expanding Muslim “American” population is that they can legally and constitutionally…enthusiastically, vote Native Born White Americans into a racial minority on Nov 3 2016..8pm…9/11 is an insignificant event compared to this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    The US Government did not organize, and carry out 9/11, and all other post-9/11 terrorists attacks..All of these terrorists were carried out by Muslim Male Yoots…
     
    Of course, because the government and the mainstream media would never lie about anything, right?

    Just out of curiosity, these "Muslim Male Yoots" -- what was their motive for the crime again?
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  35. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Alfa158
    Not a coincidence. I am old enough to have been around during the first Kennedy assassination and have spent 50 years watching the conspiracy nuttiness bloom and develop. A large proportion have one thing in common, diverting the blame from favored groups to one particular group of bogeymen:

    JFK: Murdered by Cuba and Soviet sympathizing Communist. Conspiracy fantasy; murdered by Evil Right Wing White Men in CIA, Mafia, FBI etc.

    RFK: Murdered by pro PLO Arab. Conspiracy fantasy: murdered by Evil Right Wing White Men in Chief Parker's LAPD.

    9/11: Mass murder by Arab Muslims. Conspiracy Fantasy: Mass murder by Evil Right Wing White Men in CIA and Mossad.

    San Berdoo massacre: Mass shooting by two Pakistani Muslim terrorists. Conspiracy Fantasy: Mass shooting by three Evil Right Wing White Men.

    Another thing that is interesting is the speed with which these get propagated and sustained. It is like there are rapid response PR teams poised to spring into concerted action as soon as one of these atrocities happen and a alarm bell is rung, but that would be another conspiracy. The Left is simply well indoctrinated, on the same page, and everyone knows what to do without coordination.

    How is this different from the views of right-wingers at the Unz Review and elsewhere? They tend to believe for example that the Iraq War was a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, that leftism is a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, that immigration is a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @rod1963
    Lots different, the PNAC crowd operated in the open and still do. No conspiracy. When you have power you don't need to operate in the dark.

    If there is a conspiracy, it is the silence of the MSM refusing to report on them.

    Immigration/globalism isn't a conspiracy, it's plainly driven by short term profit seeking or trying to get money out a turnip by a wide array of businesses and super wealthy individuals who openly state what they are trying to do. You find that in the major business periodicals.
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  36. @Anon
    If other people did the shootings, how did Farook and Malik end up being found with semi-automatic weapons in their SUV? What were those thousands of rounds for those weapons doing in their apartment? How did that pledge to the leader of ISIL end up on their Facebook page?

    They look guilty as hell to me. Go google Occam's Razor and start applying it. It'll save you strain and hassle.

    The media lies.
    The media spreads the manure the govt dictates.
    The media has it’s own liberal agenda.
    Who’s to say the pics we saw on TV are the two shot ?
    WHO said there were 3 white men ? (Forget the “white” concentrate on the “3″)
    Maybe they are down playing the 3 while the 3rd is being sought.

    Did you see the smoke from the grassy knoll ???

    Read More
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  37. joe webb says:

    Like the jewyorktimes which does not have a funnies page…does not need it, since the funnies are everywhere, especially on the Opinion page.

    I see Ron puts up a funnies page here too.

    Joe Webb

    don’t forget to go after the apparent mexer who allegedly helped the perps buy guns…just arrested. The selection of a mexer is more White Racism! by the cops. He has been set up for sure.

    Read More
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  38. Mr. Anon says:

    Is this site becoming Infowars? We already have Infowars for the “Everything is a false flag” demographic.

    Read More
    • Agree: Vendetta
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  39. Mr. Anon says:
    @Rurik
    not that I know what happened in Cali

    but let me ask you Bragadocious.. what did bring down building seven?

    Office fires?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mamvq7LWqRU

    Metabunk WTC7

    “This is what a firefighter, who was there on that day, had to say:

    “Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy…. The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed…. Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess.” – Lieutenant William Ryan

    “A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.”

    Scroll down about halfway down the page to see pictures of the structural damage to WTC7 and the raging fire that “truthers” never bother to consider. So called “truthers” never look for any information (which information is readily found) that contradicts their narrative.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    the reason alot of the theories regarding those building having alot of followers is because those buildings just collapsed waaaaay too neatly. about as good as controlled demolitions.

    don't blame people from having doubts. never relegate them to conspiracy nuts, it is completely reasonable from all the available videos.
    , @Rurik
    oh lord, really?

    you're trying to make a case that building seven fell at free-fall speed directly into its basement because of some office fires?

    these building burned like infernos for hours without plopping into their basements

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

    if you want to know what firefighters said on 911, google "keep an eye on that building it's coming down ..."

    here's one, I did it for you

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHtvN26yPvY

    if you work in an office building and a room catches on fire and spreads to another room, how many people are going to run out of the building immediately in fear that the entire building is going to implode?

    if there were any fear of such a thing ever happening, as it's never happened in the history of steel frame buildings, either before or since 911, there would be massive efforts to reinforce all the steel frame sky scrapers and insure that all the steel doesn't magically vaporize into nice lengths for easy transport to waiting ships to China. - To be melted down without forensic studies to determine just how this impossible engineering miracle of physics transpired. But how many building have been thus checked out?

    None?

    But surely they're all unsafe!

    If they can all just plop like a rock into their footprint at some superficial damage to their facade, then surly efforts are being made in every city in the world to re-engineer these building, no? Why not?

    Was 911 a magical day when news agencies and fire dept.'s were all magically able to predict an impossible event before it happened but it we can all rest assured that it will never happen again, because 911 was just a magical day?

    Eh?
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  40. Rehmat says:

    The ANTI-MUSLIM agenda had been achieved. So, the whining of Israeli propaganda mouthpiece NYT or even eye witnesses cannot stop the GOP and Democrat traitor candidate blaming Muslims for the benefit of the neo-Nazis in Israel.

    David Steele, a 20-year Marine Corps intelligence officer, has claimed that almost every terrorist attack on US soil was committed by the CIA, FBI, and local law-enforcement agencies.

    Now, only Zionist thugs believe in the 9/11 official story, as it has been proven beyond any doubt that it was an IN-HOUSE job carried out by the Zioconservatives with the help of Israeli Mossad.

    On June 28, 2001, American radio show host, and author, Milton William Cooper (1943-2001) predicted that a huge terror attack would happen on American soil that would be blamed on Osama Bin Laden. Cooper was murdered in front of his house on November 5, 2001.

    http://rehmat1.com/2015/11/10/bill-cooper-predicted-911-false-flag-operation/

    Read More
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  41. rod1963 says:
    @Anonymous
    How is this different from the views of right-wingers at the Unz Review and elsewhere? They tend to believe for example that the Iraq War was a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, that leftism is a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, that immigration is a conspiracy by evil white men and or Jews, etc.

    Lots different, the PNAC crowd operated in the open and still do. No conspiracy. When you have power you don’t need to operate in the dark.

    If there is a conspiracy, it is the silence of the MSM refusing to report on them.

    Immigration/globalism isn’t a conspiracy, it’s plainly driven by short term profit seeking or trying to get money out a turnip by a wide array of businesses and super wealthy individuals who openly state what they are trying to do. You find that in the major business periodicals.

    Read More
    • Replies: @This Is Our Home
    Yes, immigrationism is plainly stated. It is passionately argued for all over the media and has millions of proud true believers. One would have to be truly locked-in not to notice it.

    On the other hand, all of these crackpot conspiracy theories are alleging that secret forces with barely knowable aims are behind every world event.

    There is as much comparison between the two as between science and Scientology.
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  42. @Mr. Anon
    Metabunk WTC7

    "This is what a firefighter, who was there on that day, had to say:

    "Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan

    "A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good."

    Scroll down about halfway down the page to see pictures of the structural damage to WTC7 and the raging fire that "truthers" never bother to consider. So called "truthers" never look for any information (which information is readily found) that contradicts their narrative.

    the reason alot of the theories regarding those building having alot of followers is because those buildings just collapsed waaaaay too neatly. about as good as controlled demolitions.

    don’t blame people from having doubts. never relegate them to conspiracy nuts, it is completely reasonable from all the available videos.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "the reason alot of the theories regarding those building having alot of followers is because those buildings just collapsed waaaaay too neatly. about as good as controlled demolitions."

    No, they didn't. People base thier (ignorant and baseless) opinion on one YouTube video taken from one side. You know why buildings mostly fall straight down? Becuase that's the way the force due to gravity points.

    "don’t blame people from having doubts. never relegate them to conspiracy nuts, it is completely reasonable from all the available videos."

    They are conspiracy nuts. What else am I to make of them?
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  43. Rurik says:
    @Mr. Anon
    Metabunk WTC7

    "This is what a firefighter, who was there on that day, had to say:

    "Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan

    "A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good."

    Scroll down about halfway down the page to see pictures of the structural damage to WTC7 and the raging fire that "truthers" never bother to consider. So called "truthers" never look for any information (which information is readily found) that contradicts their narrative.

    oh lord, really?

    you’re trying to make a case that building seven fell at free-fall speed directly into its basement because of some office fires?

    these building burned like infernos for hours without plopping into their basements

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

    if you want to know what firefighters said on 911, google “keep an eye on that building it’s coming down …”

    here’s one, I did it for you

    if you work in an office building and a room catches on fire and spreads to another room, how many people are going to run out of the building immediately in fear that the entire building is going to implode?

    if there were any fear of such a thing ever happening, as it’s never happened in the history of steel frame buildings, either before or since 911, there would be massive efforts to reinforce all the steel frame sky scrapers and insure that all the steel doesn’t magically vaporize into nice lengths for easy transport to waiting ships to China. – To be melted down without forensic studies to determine just how this impossible engineering miracle of physics transpired. But how many building have been thus checked out?

    None?

    But surely they’re all unsafe!

    If they can all just plop like a rock into their footprint at some superficial damage to their facade, then surly efforts are being made in every city in the world to re-engineer these building, no? Why not?

    Was 911 a magical day when news agencies and fire dept.’s were all magically able to predict an impossible event before it happened but it we can all rest assured that it will never happen again, because 911 was just a magical day?

    Eh?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    "oh lord, really?
    you’re trying to make a case that building seven fell at free-fall speed directly into its basement because of some office fires?"

    You have to understand, Bro, Mr. Anon is obsessed with driving a water-powered car.
    , @Mr. Anon
    You have "Truth" as a follower, so - congratulaitons! - you've really arrived as a gullible nitwit.
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  44. Sam J. says:

    The single most important act about false flags is building #7. Building #7 was not hit by a plane. The third skyscraper to fall on 9-11. The North and South tower shouldn’t have fallen like they did either. After all the whole building is built to hold up the top. If the top falls a floor or two from airplane crashes the strength of the bottom doesn’t magically disappear. These building were designed to face hurricane force winds pushing them sideways. Stick a 12″ x 12″, one square foot, board out of your car window at 70 MPH and see how it pushes on your arm. Now imagine double that force for 140 MPH winds and then add up ALL the square feet on the side of the building and multiply times that force you felt. The force of the top falling a few floors onto the bottom floors, designed to take this force, is trivial compared to hurricane force winds.

    Back to building #7. They say it fell from fire. Here’s direct evidence it didn’t. They said the North tower fell on it causing massive damage. There was some damage but not enough to bring the building down “symmetrically”. Meaning all four sides fell at roughly the same rate. Even though it had damage to only one side and some sides seemed to have little to no damage. So a building with no damage or very little to some sides and no fire engulfing the building fell the same speed as a rock dropped next to it in the air, with nothing supporting the rock, for roughly 108 feet. No matter how big the fires there is resistance to the building falling from the concrete, from columns that haven’t been melted by fire and by the columns themselves. Have you ever seen molten steel? Do you imagine that even molten steel has no resistance to being moved or crushed? (Not that I’m saying the steel was molten, it wasn’t. I’m just comparing the most absurd example.) Here’s a video of reporters going into building #7 AFTER the North tower supposedly fell on it and destroyed it sufficiently enough for it to collapse completely. Look at :54 you see the #7 for the building on the door.

    Now you’ve seen video of the inside where there is NO massive damage to make all four sides of the building fall. You want pictures of the back? Here’s a picture of the South side of building #7, facing the North tower, after it had fallen. There is no huge gaping hole. There is no massive fire going all the way up the building. So you can’t say it’s the other side and we have plenty of video and pictures of the North side of build #7 pictures with no damage at all. NIST has had to release a lot of video due the FOIA.

    Here’ another NIST FOIA released video taken between one and two hours before building #7 fell. There’s around three floors on fire.

    (Watch the reporter pan up at 2:54. You can clearly see the whole building is not on fire. This side shown is the North side of building #7. Later you can see the fires mostly around three or four floors only and in isolated spots.)
    If the fires were hot enough to melt steel then why isn’t the glass in the windows melted? Glass melts at an extremely lower temperature that steel. Ever put a metal can and a glass bottle in a campfire? The glass bottle melts but the steel can will still be intact. These fires were no hotter than a campfire. One last video of all sides from 23 angles also showing the miraculous collapse.

    Fireman retired so now he can talk. He was right next to the damn building. Says,”…there was an explosion and the building came down…”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQrpLp-X0ws

    For more info look at a site by some engineers that lay out the evidence.

    http://www.ae911truth.org/

    Every since I learned the facts about building #7 I’ve never been able to look at any of these attacks the same. It’s logical to assume that it’s false flags if the facts don’t fit what we’re being told. Building #7 is confirmation that these go on. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a building to fall as fast as a rock dropped in mid air no mater how big the fires are. It can’t happen. You can call us truthers, Wiki Whacks, nug nuggs or whatever and it doesn’t change the fact that buildings can’t fall with no resistance unless all support is removed beneath them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Why'd the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?

    As for your board out the window, take that 2x4 and clock yourself over the head with it. Your entire statement is sophistry. We are talking about a 200 ton aircraft hitting the face of a building at 500 mph, 50 tons or so of that weight being jet fuel. 'Hurricane force winds' simply do not compare.

    You act as though it's all common sense, "just stick a board out the window and imagine."

    If it were a 2,000 lbs. bomb that hit the tower, no one's common sense would be telling them that that impact merely created "some superficial damage to the facade."

    Armchair engineers find the physics of it impossible because they go to Wikipedia and look up the temperature at which jet fuel burns. They don't account for the fact that impact threw up dense clouds of particulate matter, which burns at much higher temperatures. Same sort of phenomenon that creates dust explosions in grain silos.
    , @Thirdeye
    The wind load argument is irrelevant to the cascading failure of the diaphragm floors. The forces act perpendicular to one another. The design loads of floors are much smaller than the design wind loads acting on the whole building.

    The Building 7 argument does not support the case for "false flag" sabotage for the simple reason that the supposed demolition of 1 and 2 was supposedly disguised by the aircraft hits. There was nothing "disguising" the collapse of 7. Let's see, the saboteurs had some leftover demo charges from the demo job on 1 and 2, which would be cleverly disguised by aircraft hits, so they decided to take down 7 just for jollies even though it would blow their cover because it wasn't disguised, right? Calling the collapse of 7 evidence for demo on 1 and 2 doesn't stand under the weight of its own logical contradictions.
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  45. Abbie Hoffman famously wrote a book called Revolution for the Hell of It. Mr. North and Mr. Roberts seem to believe that our government practices false flags for the hell of it. In Sandy Hook, in Boston, and now in San Bernardino, terrible massacres occur, conspiracy theorists hint darkly at false flags or outright fakery, and yet the supposed government plot that the murders were meant to advance never comes. The major proposals from the left (gun control) and from the right (ban on Muslim immigrants) are both unlikely to actually happen. At least 9/11 as an excuse to go to war in Iraq was a coherent storyline – these junior varsity truthers do not even have that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Mr. North and Mr. Roberts seem to believe that our government practices false flags for the hell of it.
     
    No, they don't believe that. The false flag terrorist attacks are not "just for the hell of it". They advance an agenda.
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  46. Wally says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    He wasn't described as "white" by eyewitnesses. He was described as "white" by the media after the event. Just as the suspects in San Bernardino weren't described as a Pakistani man and woman by eyewitnesses, but as 3 tall athletic white men.

    As if there’s a difference.

    Zimmerman was called a ‘white’ man by those who wish he was. Same as San Bernardino.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    There is a difference: eyewitness testimony vs. media presentation.
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  47. Max Payne says:

    What hippy communist shit is this? One of the videos says “The uploader has not made this video available in your country.”

    Since when did that start happening?

    Read More
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  48. Vendetta says:
    @Sam J.
    The single most important act about false flags is building #7. Building #7 was not hit by a plane. The third skyscraper to fall on 9-11. The North and South tower shouldn’t have fallen like they did either. After all the whole building is built to hold up the top. If the top falls a floor or two from airplane crashes the strength of the bottom doesn’t magically disappear. These building were designed to face hurricane force winds pushing them sideways. Stick a 12" x 12", one square foot, board out of your car window at 70 MPH and see how it pushes on your arm. Now imagine double that force for 140 MPH winds and then add up ALL the square feet on the side of the building and multiply times that force you felt. The force of the top falling a few floors onto the bottom floors, designed to take this force, is trivial compared to hurricane force winds.

    Back to building #7. They say it fell from fire. Here’s direct evidence it didn’t. They said the North tower fell on it causing massive damage. There was some damage but not enough to bring the building down “symmetrically”. Meaning all four sides fell at roughly the same rate. Even though it had damage to only one side and some sides seemed to have little to no damage. So a building with no damage or very little to some sides and no fire engulfing the building fell the same speed as a rock dropped next to it in the air, with nothing supporting the rock, for roughly 108 feet. No matter how big the fires there is resistance to the building falling from the concrete, from columns that haven’t been melted by fire and by the columns themselves. Have you ever seen molten steel? Do you imagine that even molten steel has no resistance to being moved or crushed? (Not that I’m saying the steel was molten, it wasn’t. I’m just comparing the most absurd example.) Here’s a video of reporters going into building #7 AFTER the North tower supposedly fell on it and destroyed it sufficiently enough for it to collapse completely. Look at :54 you see the #7 for the building on the door.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLqGRv7CQlc

    Now you’ve seen video of the inside where there is NO massive damage to make all four sides of the building fall. You want pictures of the back? Here’s a picture of the South side of building #7, facing the North tower, after it had fallen. There is no huge gaping hole. There is no massive fire going all the way up the building. So you can’t say it’s the other side and we have plenty of video and pictures of the North side of build #7 pictures with no damage at all. NIST has had to release a lot of video due the FOIA.

    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/docs/b7_nofire.jpg

    Here’ another NIST FOIA released video taken between one and two hours before building #7 fell. There’s around three floors on fire.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IssGRpcB_ms

    (Watch the reporter pan up at 2:54. You can clearly see the whole building is not on fire. This side shown is the North side of building #7. Later you can see the fires mostly around three or four floors only and in isolated spots.)
    If the fires were hot enough to melt steel then why isn’t the glass in the windows melted? Glass melts at an extremely lower temperature that steel. Ever put a metal can and a glass bottle in a campfire? The glass bottle melts but the steel can will still be intact. These fires were no hotter than a campfire. One last video of all sides from 23 angles also showing the miraculous collapse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnLcUxV1dPo

    Fireman retired so now he can talk. He was right next to the damn building. Says,”…there was an explosion and the building came down…”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQrpLp-X0ws

    For more info look at a site by some engineers that lay out the evidence.

    http://www.ae911truth.org/

    Every since I learned the facts about building #7 I've never been able to look at any of these attacks the same. It's logical to assume that it's false flags if the facts don't fit what we're being told. Building #7 is confirmation that these go on. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a building to fall as fast as a rock dropped in mid air no mater how big the fires are. It can't happen. You can call us truthers, Wiki Whacks, nug nuggs or whatever and it doesn't change the fact that buildings can't fall with no resistance unless all support is removed beneath them.

    Why’d the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?

    As for your board out the window, take that 2×4 and clock yourself over the head with it. Your entire statement is sophistry. We are talking about a 200 ton aircraft hitting the face of a building at 500 mph, 50 tons or so of that weight being jet fuel. ‘Hurricane force winds’ simply do not compare.

    You act as though it’s all common sense, “just stick a board out the window and imagine.”

    If it were a 2,000 lbs. bomb that hit the tower, no one’s common sense would be telling them that that impact merely created “some superficial damage to the facade.”

    Armchair engineers find the physics of it impossible because they go to Wikipedia and look up the temperature at which jet fuel burns. They don’t account for the fact that impact threw up dense clouds of particulate matter, which burns at much higher temperatures. Same sort of phenomenon that creates dust explosions in grain silos.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Why’d the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?
     
    Why were there alleged cell phone calls by passengers on the hijacked planes, including recordings of such alleged calls, when that's been proven to have been impossible?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WJ9Lg7Zaw30#t=610
    , @Rurik

    Why’d the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?
     
    in all probability the plane that was shot down over Shankville PA was intended to hit building seven. When it didn't make it, they decided to "pull it" anyways

    We are talking about a 200 ton aircraft hitting the face of a building at 500 mph,
     
    um, building seven was not hit by a plane. It suffered some superficial damage to its façade and there were a few office fires. But even if it were hit by a jet, it still wouldn't turn the whole building to powder and twisted steel beams that were obviously cut with thermite

    http://www.debunking911.com/angcut.jpg
    , @L.K
    Vendetta goes: "Armchair engineers find the physics of it impossible because they go to Wikipedia and look up the temperature at which jet fuel burns."

    That is an extraordinarily IDIOTIC statement;

    The hundreds of engineers with http://www.ae911truth.org/ are no ''armchair engineers' looking up stuff on wikipedia, they have actually investigated the evidence in painstaking detail, covering all the angles.

    At this point, people like u have no reason to be unfamiliar with their work... u r either lazy or worse.

    Vendetta then offers us this pearl!
    "Stuart Slade’s essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis."

    Sure, sure, how convenient eh, 'vendetta'?? You seem to cover a lot for the zionists/israelis, don't you?
    The alternative to it is even worse and would suggest that the following German saying fits u like a glove: "Gegen Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens."

    Israel's Deliberate and Brutal Attack on the USS Liberty - Ernest Gallo, CIA Retired
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Cd59dbZtw
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  49. Pontius says:
    @Ft
    I don't have any reason to suspect the braod general official narrative on Bernadino and the official descrpition of how towers ,and Pentagon and were attacked by the planes . Beyond that I don't believe anything governments says about 911 because bunch of people with clear motive had ignored the warnings before and used the shock to advance the mission that they were ideologically ,religiouly,culturally, and professionally trained to fight for and to exeute it at any cost for decades - redrawing the Middle East to sustain secure,and nurture Israel. Their job is remains unfinished according to their subsequent behavioral pattern in and out of power .
    . This is why the umbrage and hatred against Obama ,call for his death,insinuation that he might be killed because he is an apostate to Muslim as spread by some of their lying heavyweights among the Islamophobic neocon and visceral antagonism by neocon cum Netanyahu against Iran deal and visceral organic violent impulses to get whole Sunni hyped up against Shia through use of deceit,deception,fear tactics,and plain bribings with threat by Israel neocon,and left wing interventionist .

    TWA also belongs to that realm of unexplored cloud of uncertainty . The aviation industry has question - a lot and the NTSB investigators challenged the official version from day one . NTSB 's dissenting opinions were gagged under threat of discharge from duties and loss of benefit .

    I often thought the TWA story was fishy.

    Wouldn’t the vapor inside an airplane’s fuel tank be way above the UEL for a spark to cause an explosion?

    Makes you wonder about all the fuel pumps and fuel level senders inside millions of automobiles wouldn’t it?

    As far as jet fuel and collapsing building goes, I have far less concern about the truth of that. I remember a mutli-level office building fire that occurred when I was a kid, and the heavy I-beams in that structure were bent and twisted like spaghetti from a run of the mill building materials fire.

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  50. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:

    9/11 trutherism is a codeword for flooding Native Born White American Living and Breeding Space with high fertility highly racialized Young Muslim Legal Immigrant Breeding Pairs.

    Just go read the 9/11 Truther Movement Spiritual Leader David Ray Griffith’s book.

    I have violent violent hatred of 9/11 Truthers……..

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    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Would you believe Israeli Jewish Truther Amos Biderman who claims Benjamin Netanyahu was behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/11/01/israeli-cartoonist-nethanyahu-behind-911/
    , @L.K
    "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain", you have earned the PCR( a true American patriot, unlike u ) award!

    You r a Dumbshit American! Ain't that great!

    "I have violent violent hatred of 9/11 Truthers…"

    Boo hoo... you need professional help.
    , @alexander
    Wow Groovy,

    You sound like a Jewish Extremist Settler whose borrowed a little white supremacist language and is co-mingling that with your desire to exterminate all the little "Palestinian Snakes " that seem to breed like rabbits.......

    Are you ?

    Perhaps you are taking the "demographic time bomb" threat of an eventual Palestinian majority in" Judea and Samaria"and grafting it onto the non-existent "'Muslim"demographic threat in the US...

    Is that the case ?

    And why is your "Hatred "for 9-11 truthers......so" Violent, Violent"....?.....You sound like an "unhinged" Jewish Terrorist" time bomb" waiting to go off....

    As though the proponents who make a case for 9-11 as an" inside" job, have made their arguments too thorough , well reasoned, and self-evident...that it is causing you to bust a gasket ?

    .
    Easy boy... I hope that is not the case.


    But in allowing us all to see your "intemperate" side perhaps you should consider changing your name from " Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain "to....

    "Moody Cattle for Mt Hermon"


    It seems a bit more "apropos".

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  51. abner says:

    Wouldn’t you have to get a bunch of highschool graduates working as LA cops on the same page for the rest of their lives to make this conspiracy work? If the story was that one FBI agent had plugged both of them I could see it.

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    • Replies: @Penelope
    Abner, I guess if your commanding officer tells you it's confirmed these are the killers and that they have refused to stop the car you would participate.
    However, a few things lead me to believe that this is a hoax:
    --In other footage you can see that the front windows, altho they have large holes in them were rolled up. Did the perps shoot thru their closed windows?
    --Since no one identified them at the scene of the "massacre", shouldn't there be dash-cam footage when the police kill them?
    --The footage above of the female shooter looks more like a stage dummy than a woman.

    --The newsman whom you just saw interviewed David, the man who took the cell phone video where you could hear the police shooting at the SUV.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcqdinBLxDI At 12:10 on this video the newsman becomes concerned that his "witness" is lacking credibility cuz he keeps putting his hands in his pockets. So the newsman, not knowing that the camera is now picking up below his waist, puts his hand out and sort of pinches his witness's wrist to make him take his hand out of his pocket. To me that's a dead giveaway! Would he do that w a real witness-- be concerned about enhancing his credibility? This witness is David, the one who filmed w his cell phone while we heard the cops shooting at the SUV.

    But Abner, if you really want to know if there are hoaxes put on by the govt, I have a sequential set of still photos taken at the Boston Bombing.
    Boston Bombing photos taken from an office overlooking where the crisis actors waited their turn for the photographer. Two did not even lie down until the photographer was ready for them, at which time one "became dead." We actually see one woman put on her "blood makeup." We see Cowboy Hat, lounging & waiting for the final event. Looked at carefully these are conclusive proof that the Boston Marathon bombing was a hoax. http://deepinsidetherabbithole.com/The_Boston_Bombing_Hoax.html http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/
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  52. Rehmat says:
    @War for Blair Mountain
    9/11 trutherism is a codeword for flooding Native Born White American Living and Breeding Space with high fertility highly racialized Young Muslim Legal Immigrant Breeding Pairs.

    Just go read the 9/11 Truther Movement Spiritual Leader David Ray Griffith's book.

    I have violent violent hatred of 9/11 Truthers........

    Would you believe Israeli Jewish Truther Amos Biderman who claims Benjamin Netanyahu was behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/11/01/israeli-cartoonist-nethanyahu-behind-911/

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  53. L.K says:
    @War for Blair Mountain
    9/11 trutherism is a codeword for flooding Native Born White American Living and Breeding Space with high fertility highly racialized Young Muslim Legal Immigrant Breeding Pairs.

    Just go read the 9/11 Truther Movement Spiritual Leader David Ray Griffith's book.

    I have violent violent hatred of 9/11 Truthers........

    “Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain”, you have earned the PCR( a true American patriot, unlike u ) award!

    You r a Dumbshit American! Ain’t that great!

    “I have violent violent hatred of 9/11 Truthers…”

    Boo hoo… you need professional help.

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  54. @James Kabala
    Abbie Hoffman famously wrote a book called Revolution for the Hell of It. Mr. North and Mr. Roberts seem to believe that our government practices false flags for the hell of it. In Sandy Hook, in Boston, and now in San Bernardino, terrible massacres occur, conspiracy theorists hint darkly at false flags or outright fakery, and yet the supposed government plot that the murders were meant to advance never comes. The major proposals from the left (gun control) and from the right (ban on Muslim immigrants) are both unlikely to actually happen. At least 9/11 as an excuse to go to war in Iraq was a coherent storyline - these junior varsity truthers do not even have that.

    Mr. North and Mr. Roberts seem to believe that our government practices false flags for the hell of it.

    No, they don’t believe that. The false flag terrorist attacks are not “just for the hell of it”. They advance an agenda.

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    • Replies: @James Kabala
    My point is that the dreaded agenda never comes. I don't care for Obama or most of our other government leaders, but I don't think that they are evil masterminds smart enough to plan these things yet at the same time dumb enough to keep saying to themselves "By golly, just one more fake massacre and the common folk will finally support gun confiscation!" You would think that after the first several failures they would realize that it was a failed idea and give up.
    , @ben tillman

    No, they don’t believe that. The false flag terrorist attacks are not “just for the hell of it”. They advance an agenda.
     
    And what would that be? With 9/11, it was obvious -- so, obvious that an intelligent person's default belief wold be that the PNACkers were involved in some way. But San Bernardino?
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  55. Ms. North, good luck with further snooping. This thing is closed DOWN. The whole thing stinks, Marquez was charged with a laundry list of charges, case closed. That kid will never see the light of day. What law enforcement, especially the Feds, cover up is their own incompetencies. And they cover for the Muslim interest. If we could get to Marquez, we’d find out about affiliations with the Mosques, a weapons network, all of it funded from who knows where. You know more happened than what they tell, but not the what. Or whom. What they’re covering for is the inability, in spite of all the intel, all the money spent, to stop these folks. They’re covering up the imported threat via Syrian “refugees” and they’re covering up for the Mosques who are up to their hand-sewn silk bur-quas in this.

    Get close to the truth Mr. North, it becomes a tar pit. I worry about reporters, Andrew Breitbart, there have been others that just went away. Raising the questions is enough. People don’t care what you dig up on this thing, they’re already on to the next event. San Bernardino is SO last month. So why risk their ire? Happy hunting, but it ain’t worth it, Hoss.

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  56. Thanks, Unz, now I can’t link to this site until this inanity disappears from the front page. There’s a big thick fence between “alternative news” and “lol.”

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If you don't like it, go make your own website, you poor loser.
    , @Jim Christian
    No kidding. The 9/11 truthers hadda come out. Laughable. The only conspiracy with San Bernardino is the cover-up for Mosques. Political correctness is the conspiracy. Doesn't hurt that immigrants vote Democrat. If immigrants voted Republican, the Syrians could go screw in Syria and the Mexican Wall would be to the moon and coast-to-coast. Democrats, to stay in "power" however temporarily, are willing to sell our children's (and their own, eventually) birthright down the road. They're THAT confident of their relative safety. There IS no safety when you import the lower order into the First World. Fools.
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  57. @War for Blair Mountain
    The US Government did not organize, and carry out 9/11, and all other post-9/11 terrorists attacks..All of these terrorists were carried out by Muslim Male Yoots...And these terrorist attacks was quite easy to pull off in a Nation of emasculated White Male ESPN-Fantasy Football jocksniffers who weren't paying attention to the fact that the Democratic Party was importing its highly racialized nonwhite voting block from the Muslim World.

    9/11, and the terrorist attacks that came afterwards, were a direct consequence of the Democratic Party importing its voting bloc with the very open intent of having high fertility highly racialized Muslim Breeding pairs voting fucking Whitey into a violently persecuted racial minority on Nov 3 20116...think current NYS Governor Andew Cuomo.

    The 9/11 conspiracy nuttery attracts two types of White Males1)psychotic delusional White Males on psychotropics with enlarged breasts...and 2)Treasonous White Males such as Paul Craig Roberts who desire the racial death of The Historic Native Born White American Majority.

    The real mortal existential threat of the very rapidly expanding Muslim "American" population is that they can legally and constitutionally...enthusiastically, vote Native Born White Americans into a racial minority on Nov 3 2016..8pm...9/11 is an insignificant event compared to this.

    The US Government did not organize, and carry out 9/11, and all other post-9/11 terrorists attacks..All of these terrorists were carried out by Muslim Male Yoots…

    Of course, because the government and the mainstream media would never lie about anything, right?

    Just out of curiosity, these “Muslim Male Yoots” — what was their motive for the crime again?

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  58. Clyde says:
    @Bragadocious
    Here we go again. Tower 7 was imploded by Halliburton and a hand held rocket launcher brought down that TWA flight. It's kind of hard to peddle conspiracy theories when we have 2 dead killers, armed to the teeth with a digital trail of hatred. And just why would the SB cops and the Obama FBI protect "3 white men?" Loretta Lynch would give her firstborn (if she had a firstborn) for the chance to prosecute a trio of white devils.

    Posters have mentioned false flag operations here eleven times. Hooray for conspiracy theories!! With the usual Unz.com posters running a few false flag operations themselves. The more states that legalize marijuana the more conspiracy theories we will get.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    Posters have mentioned false flag operations here eleven times.
     
    wasn't it neat how Israel committed that false flag attack on the USS Liberty and slaughtered or maimed over two hundred US crew members?

    aren't you glad that some 60 thousand young American men lost their lives in vain due to the lies that our government told about the Golf of Tonkin event?

    when our government lies, like about WMD or something to mass murder people and get our young men and women killed or worse, we should not complain

    it's unpatriotic

    huh?
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  59. musings says:
    @Anon
    If other people did the shootings, how did Farook and Malik end up being found with semi-automatic weapons in their SUV? What were those thousands of rounds for those weapons doing in their apartment? How did that pledge to the leader of ISIL end up on their Facebook page?

    They look guilty as hell to me. Go google Occam's Razor and start applying it. It'll save you strain and hassle.

    I guess the question has to be what happened in the intervening four hours – perhaps enough harassment and threats to people already in radar to get them to act like they needed to get away, and take lots of weapons with them. Thus, the actual killers themselves, if insiders in the police could do what has been done a lot in the Mideast wars: poke the people with a stick and get them to break cover so they could be killed.

    But I don’t believe any of it. I am just proposing an explanatory scenario. I have no basis for belief in any of it, no basis, that is, of solid fact. It’s all hearsay.

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  60. alexander says:
    @War for Blair Mountain
    9/11 trutherism is a codeword for flooding Native Born White American Living and Breeding Space with high fertility highly racialized Young Muslim Legal Immigrant Breeding Pairs.

    Just go read the 9/11 Truther Movement Spiritual Leader David Ray Griffith's book.

    I have violent violent hatred of 9/11 Truthers........

    Wow Groovy,

    You sound like a Jewish Extremist Settler whose borrowed a little white supremacist language and is co-mingling that with your desire to exterminate all the little “Palestinian Snakes ” that seem to breed like rabbits…….

    Are you ?

    Perhaps you are taking the “demographic time bomb” threat of an eventual Palestinian majority in” Judea and Samaria”and grafting it onto the non-existent “‘Muslim”demographic threat in the US…

    Is that the case ?

    And why is your “Hatred “for 9-11 truthers……so” Violent, Violent”….?…..You sound like an “unhinged” Jewish Terrorist” time bomb” waiting to go off….

    As though the proponents who make a case for 9-11 as an” inside” job, have made their arguments too thorough , well reasoned, and self-evident…that it is causing you to bust a gasket ?

    .
    Easy boy… I hope that is not the case.

    But in allowing us all to see your “intemperate” side perhaps you should consider changing your name from ” Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain “to….

    “Moody Cattle for Mt Hermon”

    It seems a bit more “apropos”.

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  61. @Bragadocious
    Nope, not disavowed. Read the stories again. What he said was she didn't publicly pledge allegiance to ISIS. But she and the Pakistani incel loser were sending all sorts of private FB love notes involving jihad. They should release the full contents of these messages.

    But she and the Pakistani incel loser were sending all sorts of private FB love notes involving jihad. They should release the full contents of these messages.

    They can just say anything at all and you’ll just accept it as a fact, right?

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  62. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:

    9/11 Trutherism Religion:Either you believe in 9/11 Trutherism or you are a terrorist like the Bush Family-responsible for the mass murder on 9/11!!!!…9/11 Trutherism has 9/11 Truther scripture on HERESY!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The MASTERMINDS OF 9/11…THE PRESCOTT BUSH FAMILY!!!!….whose favorite, and only reading material at their Maine Keneebunkport Estate, is “250 Fart Jokes”….

    The Muslim Yoots did 9/11…If the 1965 Immigration Reform Act had not been passed…and if a National Origins Immigration Policy had been in place that completely excluded all Muslims….9/11 would have 0 probability of ever occurring!!!

    And there would be 0 Pakistani Muslim “Americans” enthusiastically voting fucking Whitey into a violently persecuted racial minority in ecoli infested stinking reeking filthy post-white Toilet Bowl “America”(NYS Governor Andrew Cuomo’s favorite kind of toilet bowl!!!!) on Nov 3…2016……8PM announcement!!!!

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  63. Assuming the account give here is accurate, its pretty obvious we’ve been duped. I’m not entirely sure by whom, or to what purpose, but the intelligence community (both those of our nation, as well as those of several others) are quite good at obscuring such salient details.

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  64. The fact the suspects were encountered (and swiftly killed) four hours later, just two miles from the crime scene, seems very strange to me.

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  65. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    As if there's a difference.

    Zimmerman was called a 'white' man by those who wish he was. Same as San Bernardino.

    There is a difference: eyewitness testimony vs. media presentation.

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  66. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Vendetta
    Why'd the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?

    As for your board out the window, take that 2x4 and clock yourself over the head with it. Your entire statement is sophistry. We are talking about a 200 ton aircraft hitting the face of a building at 500 mph, 50 tons or so of that weight being jet fuel. 'Hurricane force winds' simply do not compare.

    You act as though it's all common sense, "just stick a board out the window and imagine."

    If it were a 2,000 lbs. bomb that hit the tower, no one's common sense would be telling them that that impact merely created "some superficial damage to the facade."

    Armchair engineers find the physics of it impossible because they go to Wikipedia and look up the temperature at which jet fuel burns. They don't account for the fact that impact threw up dense clouds of particulate matter, which burns at much higher temperatures. Same sort of phenomenon that creates dust explosions in grain silos.

    Why’d the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?

    Why were there alleged cell phone calls by passengers on the hijacked planes, including recordings of such alleged calls, when that’s been proven to have been impossible?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WJ9Lg7Zaw30#t=610

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  67. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Seth Largo
    Thanks, Unz, now I can't link to this site until this inanity disappears from the front page. There's a big thick fence between "alternative news" and "lol."

    If you don’t like it, go make your own website, you poor loser.

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  68. @jon
    I see that this is a reprint, is there any chance the author will actually see comments made on this site? In any event, these are my thoughts:

    1. The only eyewitness identifications that I can find speak of three white men.

    Eyewitness accounts are notoriously bad, so I don't put much stock that they thought a couple of Middle Easterners, dressed head to toe in black, were actually white (in fact, they technically are under current Census classification). Likewise, I am not surprised that they thought a woman shooting up a holiday party was a man. That's just where the mind naturally goes, and these people had few visual cues to go on given how the shooters were dressed.

    On the other hand, the fact that they claimed to see three people is troubling. Even as bad as eyewitness testimony can be, I don't think these two witnesses would conjure up a non-existent third shooter in their minds. This is your best point, in my opinion.

    2. They fired 76 rounds, while police fired 380. Who did the counting? When? Who verified this?

    The police would presumably keep a close count on their own ammo, so figuring out how many rounds were fired is simple math - amount issued minus amount remaining. For the newlyweds, I would guess it's just a matter of counting shell casings. May undercount slightly, but also pretty simple.

    3. We are supposed to believe that it took 380 rounds to kill them. If so, these are not sharpshooters.

    If around five times as many cops were involved (that's just 5x2=10), then we would expect that they might fire around five times as many rounds. And would you stop shooting at someone who was shooting at you, just to check if they were dead yet? Also, if they are faking some part of this, but the number of rounds used is somehow unbelievable, why wouldn't they also fake the count?

    As I said above, your best point is the missing third shooter. Focus on that, the rest of these points make you sound a little unhinged and leave you open to dismissals like that by Bragadocious above.

    Reminds me of the old joke,

    Q: Who fired the shot that killed Musollini?
    A: 4,000 Italian marksmen.

    The average cop has not been in a firefight … letting hundreds of bullets fly in the hopes that one will strike the target is plausible.

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    • Agree: Vendetta
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  69. Rurik says:
    @Vendetta
    Why'd the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?

    As for your board out the window, take that 2x4 and clock yourself over the head with it. Your entire statement is sophistry. We are talking about a 200 ton aircraft hitting the face of a building at 500 mph, 50 tons or so of that weight being jet fuel. 'Hurricane force winds' simply do not compare.

    You act as though it's all common sense, "just stick a board out the window and imagine."

    If it were a 2,000 lbs. bomb that hit the tower, no one's common sense would be telling them that that impact merely created "some superficial damage to the facade."

    Armchair engineers find the physics of it impossible because they go to Wikipedia and look up the temperature at which jet fuel burns. They don't account for the fact that impact threw up dense clouds of particulate matter, which burns at much higher temperatures. Same sort of phenomenon that creates dust explosions in grain silos.

    Why’d the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?

    in all probability the plane that was shot down over Shankville PA was intended to hit building seven. When it didn’t make it, they decided to “pull it” anyways

    We are talking about a 200 ton aircraft hitting the face of a building at 500 mph,

    um, building seven was not hit by a plane. It suffered some superficial damage to its façade and there were a few office fires. But even if it were hit by a jet, it still wouldn’t turn the whole building to powder and twisted steel beams that were obviously cut with thermite

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    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    Rurik, you're SUCH a Muslim. Are you STILL around? I would have thought the Saudi Arabians would have fired you for ineffectiveness in spreading the Islamic Company Line by now. Any day, if I'm wise to you, they must be too. You're a lousy propagandist.

    How's that investigation into the U.S.S. Liberty coming?
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  70. Rurik says:
    @Clyde
    Posters have mentioned false flag operations here eleven times. Hooray for conspiracy theories!! With the usual Unz.com posters running a few false flag operations themselves. The more states that legalize marijuana the more conspiracy theories we will get.

    Posters have mentioned false flag operations here eleven times.

    wasn’t it neat how Israel committed that false flag attack on the USS Liberty and slaughtered or maimed over two hundred US crew members?

    aren’t you glad that some 60 thousand young American men lost their lives in vain due to the lies that our government told about the Golf of Tonkin event?

    when our government lies, like about WMD or something to mass murder people and get our young men and women killed or worse, we should not complain

    it’s unpatriotic

    huh?

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Stuart Slade's essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.

    One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty's track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay "outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said." This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt's territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were uninterceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS' orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty's skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the "Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters ... and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation." (National Archives) That's glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy's attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel's fears. There was a very real fear inthe Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelies of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that "if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet." The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty's arrival in the area. Thats glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o'clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft ("gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships") 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking "GTR-5," which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. Its worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o'clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn't need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge - which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source - which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you'll find it even if it isn't there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire - a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn't. Another grievious fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: "The coast is being shelled and you - the navy - have done nothing." Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named "Pagoda," to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots - which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic - and reckless. This commander interpreted "don't shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots" as "fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots". Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don't really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don't. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target's speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref - D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 - putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a "Z" or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn't have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck - good or ill - that they didn't shoot up the Israeli FAC - they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty's crew in "stand-down" mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelies were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attackw as deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn't jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The "jamming" was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots - lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots - meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 - 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 - 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning - in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn't seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled "AA" - "identify yourself." Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence - Udi Erell's father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle's order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that "the Israelies must have known that". Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir - but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty's Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard - especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 - he wasn't trying to find out "which ship is this" he was looking for "which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me"

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw "GTR-5" on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as "obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable". By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn't do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at "60-100 miles north of Egypt." If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals - cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak - Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP's son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell's chops. If it was a conspiracy they'd have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a - Documents relating to the Liberty incident - papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn't realize the impact of the matters he's relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 - 67. 3 of Israel's FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle's statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld's sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking - but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events - his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.

     

    , @Clyde
    OK you have one and half false flag ops. Have any more? How about building seven? That one is a hardy perennial. How about when Floyd Patterson lost to Sonny Liston? False flags are high overrated. You have any others?
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  71. My money is on a disciple of this evil creature.

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  72. Vendetta says:
    @Rurik

    Posters have mentioned false flag operations here eleven times.
     
    wasn't it neat how Israel committed that false flag attack on the USS Liberty and slaughtered or maimed over two hundred US crew members?

    aren't you glad that some 60 thousand young American men lost their lives in vain due to the lies that our government told about the Golf of Tonkin event?

    when our government lies, like about WMD or something to mass murder people and get our young men and women killed or worse, we should not complain

    it's unpatriotic

    huh?

    Stuart Slade’s essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.

    [MORE]

    One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty’s track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay “outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said.” This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt’s territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were uninterceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS’ orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty’s skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the “Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters … and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation.” (National Archives) That’s glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy’s attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel’s fears. There was a very real fear inthe Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelies of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that “if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet.” The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty’s arrival in the area. Thats glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o’clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft (“gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships”) 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking “GTR-5,” which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. Its worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o’clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn’t need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge – which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source – which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you’ll find it even if it isn’t there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire – a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn’t. Another grievious fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: “The coast is being shelled and you – the navy – have done nothing.” Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named “Pagoda,” to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots – which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic – and reckless. This commander interpreted “don’t shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots” as “fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots”. Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don’t really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don’t. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target’s speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref – D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 – putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a “Z” or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn’t have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck – good or ill – that they didn’t shoot up the Israeli FAC – they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty’s crew in “stand-down” mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelies were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attackw as deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn’t jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The “jamming” was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots – lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots – meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 – 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 – 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning – in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn’t seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled “AA” – “identify yourself.” Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence – Udi Erell’s father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle’s order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that “the Israelies must have known that”. Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir – but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty’s Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard – especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 – he wasn’t trying to find out “which ship is this” he was looking for “which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me”

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw “GTR-5″ on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as “obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable”. By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn’t do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60-100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals – cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak – Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP’s son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell’s chops. If it was a conspiracy they’d have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a – Documents relating to the Liberty incident – papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn’t realize the impact of the matters he’s relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 – 67. 3 of Israel’s FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle’s statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld’s sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking – but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events – his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    just ask yourself why the jets that were scrambled to assist the Liberty while it was under cowardly attack were recalled by president Johnson by way of Defense Secretary Robert McNamara .. twice?

    why did the Israelis machine gun the life boats?

    why was the commander given a congressional medal of honor, in secret?

    why was the crew ordered not to talk about it on pain of court martial?

    why isn't there a crew member alive that says it might have been an accident?

    just some question off the top of my head. There are many more...




    here's the USS Liberty's official site

    http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

    The War Crimes Report we filed lists allegations of acts committed during the attack on our ship, including:
    •The jamming of our radios on both US Navy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies;
    •The use of unmarked aircraft by the forces attacking the USS Liberty;
    •The deliberate machine gunning of life rafts we had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship; and
    •The recall of two flights of rescue aircraft that had been launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers. After those flights were recalled, Sixth Fleet personnel listened to our calls for help as the attack continued knowing they were forbidden to come to our assistance.


    The Department of Defense has unilaterally waived its obligation under the Department of Defense Law of War Program by refusing to investigate the allegations contained in the War Crimes Report. The Department of Defense has also refused to provide a speaker to address the crew of the USS Liberty and explain their actions with regard to the War Crimes Report.


    here is a statement

    On June 8, 1967 the USS Liberty was cruising in the Mediterranean in International waters ordered to monitor the Israeli-Arab war. In the morning the ship was circled a dozen times by low flying Nord propeller "boxcars" at mast height with Israeli designation. The planes flew at mast height; the men on the ship could see the teeth of the pilots as they smiled. They waved at them. The ship was flying a 4’ x 7’ American flag; it stood straight out on a clear, breezy day. The ship had large letter designation on the bow GTR-5. The attack by unmarked Israeli planes (Israel says the attack was an accident – the ship was an Egyptian horse carrier – less than 1/2 the size of the USS Liberty) commenced in the afternoon in International waters. After the attack with cannon, rockets, napalm and torpedo fire; the torpedo boats came back and machine gunned the life rafts as they were thrown overboard (a war crime according to International Law). 34 men were killed and 171wounded (out of a crew of 291) this day by the Israelis. The men on board the ship call it murder. Captain Ward Boston was given one week to conduct an investigation of the attack. Before he died Ward Boston signed an affidavit stating that the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate.
    Many American intelligence servicemen have come forward stating they overheard the Israelis identifying the ship as American. I do not believe the Israeli government – I believe it is lying.
    , @Jim Christian
    Rurik is an Islamic, Vendetta. He ignores the Stark, the Cole, World Trade Center, all the murder Muslims have committed since and he ingloriously concentrates on the Liberty, 50 years ago. He's a Muslim. Rurik is a foil, he's an implant and he's all over the web. Waste no time on him. His story on the Liberty and hatred for Israel is Old-Hat Islam.
    , @Ron Unz

    Stuart Slade’s essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.
     
    Well, I don't have much to contribute on the San Bernardino Massacre, except to note the total disagreement between the explicit eyewitness testimonty of the attacking commando-terrorists being "three tall white men" and the current claims that they were two dark-skinned Pakistanis, one of them a very short woman. Unless Islamicists can split into two and morph their physical appearances, the whole thing seems rather suspicious to me.

    However, regarding the USS Liberty Incident, the historical case is absolutely open-and-shut. I've never heard of Stuart Slade, but his essay seems totally worthless "squid ink," i.e. disinformation. So I might as well take the liberty of reprinting my previous comment from last month:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/was-this-the-911-new-jersey-celebration-trump-remembered/#comment-1240650

    Regarding the Liberty Incident, here’s a nice tidbit that I may or may not have previously mentioned somewhere on this website…

    The NSA naturally has all the radio intercepts between the Israeli pilots and their military commanders, repeatedly ordering them to destroy the U.S.S. Liberty and leave no survivors (I suspect there’s actually a chance that their failure was partly due to their considerable reluctance to follow such seemingly astonishing orders). Since those radio intercepts were presumably swept up along with everything in the entire region, it presumably took them at least a few weeks to separate those out and get them translated from the Hebrew. Since some of the dead on the ship were NSA people, I’d assume the NSA people back home were *quite* unhappy about what they discovered, but there wasn’t much that they or their later successors could do once LBJ and their other political masters had made their decision to totally suppress and whitewash the incident.

    However, one of my old friends was Bill Odom, the three-star general who ran the NSA for Reagan, and Bill was a sharp fellow. The story I heard is that he arranged for those particular Israeli radio intercepts to be used each year in the official NSA training process given to all entering officers, in which they are given real-life examples demonstrating the effectiveness of NSA technology and techniques. I don’t know the exact details, but it wouldn’t surprise me if hundreds or even thousands of mid- or high-ranking NSA officials there days are therefore certainly aware of the exact details of the Liberty Incident, although it probably remains unknown to 99.5% of the American public.

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  73. @Jonathan Revusky

    Mr. North and Mr. Roberts seem to believe that our government practices false flags for the hell of it.
     
    No, they don't believe that. The false flag terrorist attacks are not "just for the hell of it". They advance an agenda.

    My point is that the dreaded agenda never comes. I don’t care for Obama or most of our other government leaders, but I don’t think that they are evil masterminds smart enough to plan these things yet at the same time dumb enough to keep saying to themselves “By golly, just one more fake massacre and the common folk will finally support gun confiscation!” You would think that after the first several failures they would realize that it was a failed idea and give up.

    Read More
    • Agree: Vendetta
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    “By golly, just one more fake massacre and the common folk will finally support gun confiscation!”

     

    Well, who said that that is the sole agenda being served by the string of false flag attacks? France already has strict gun control, so that is not the agenda of the people behind these events in Paris. What the events in France have in common with this one is the framing of Arab patsies, as well as the very tenuous claims that there is some link to ISIS, i.e. to Syria.

    In general, if you can foment this fear and loathing of Arabs, and Muslims generally, in the population, it makes all these brutal wars in the Middle East that much more politically possible. If people thought of these people as just ordinary folks like you and me, how much more politically difficult would it be to get all these wars going?
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  74. Rurik says:
    @Vendetta
    Stuart Slade's essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.

    One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty's track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay "outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said." This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt's territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were uninterceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS' orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty's skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the "Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters ... and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation." (National Archives) That's glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy's attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel's fears. There was a very real fear inthe Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelies of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that "if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet." The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty's arrival in the area. Thats glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o'clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft ("gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships") 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking "GTR-5," which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. Its worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o'clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn't need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge - which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source - which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you'll find it even if it isn't there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire - a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn't. Another grievious fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: "The coast is being shelled and you - the navy - have done nothing." Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named "Pagoda," to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots - which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic - and reckless. This commander interpreted "don't shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots" as "fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots". Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don't really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don't. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target's speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref - D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 - putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a "Z" or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn't have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck - good or ill - that they didn't shoot up the Israeli FAC - they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty's crew in "stand-down" mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelies were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attackw as deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn't jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The "jamming" was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots - lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots - meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 - 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 - 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning - in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn't seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled "AA" - "identify yourself." Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence - Udi Erell's father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle's order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that "the Israelies must have known that". Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir - but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty's Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard - especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 - he wasn't trying to find out "which ship is this" he was looking for "which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me"

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw "GTR-5" on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as "obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable". By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn't do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at "60-100 miles north of Egypt." If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals - cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak - Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP's son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell's chops. If it was a conspiracy they'd have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a - Documents relating to the Liberty incident - papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn't realize the impact of the matters he's relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 - 67. 3 of Israel's FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle's statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld's sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking - but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events - his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.

     

    just ask yourself why the jets that were scrambled to assist the Liberty while it was under cowardly attack were recalled by president Johnson by way of Defense Secretary Robert McNamara .. twice?

    why did the Israelis machine gun the life boats?

    why was the commander given a congressional medal of honor, in secret?

    why was the crew ordered not to talk about it on pain of court martial?

    why isn’t there a crew member alive that says it might have been an accident?

    just some question off the top of my head. There are many more…

    here’s the USS Liberty’s official site

    http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/


    The War Crimes Report we filed lists allegations of acts committed during the attack on our ship, including:
    •The jamming of our radios on both US Navy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies;
    •The use of unmarked aircraft by the forces attacking the USS Liberty;
    •The deliberate machine gunning of life rafts we had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship; and
    •The recall of two flights of rescue aircraft that had been launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers. After those flights were recalled, Sixth Fleet personnel listened to our calls for help as the attack continued knowing they were forbidden to come to our assistance.

    The Department of Defense has unilaterally waived its obligation under the Department of Defense Law of War Program by refusing to investigate the allegations contained in the War Crimes Report. The Department of Defense has also refused to provide a speaker to address the crew of the USS Liberty and explain their actions with regard to the War Crimes Report.

    here is a statement

    On June 8, 1967 the USS Liberty was cruising in the Mediterranean in International waters ordered to monitor the Israeli-Arab war. In the morning the ship was circled a dozen times by low flying Nord propeller “boxcars” at mast height with Israeli designation. The planes flew at mast height; the men on the ship could see the teeth of the pilots as they smiled. They waved at them. The ship was flying a 4’ x 7’ American flag; it stood straight out on a clear, breezy day. The ship had large letter designation on the bow GTR-5. The attack by unmarked Israeli planes (Israel says the attack was an accident – the ship was an Egyptian horse carrier – less than 1/2 the size of the USS Liberty) commenced in the afternoon in International waters. After the attack with cannon, rockets, napalm and torpedo fire; the torpedo boats came back and machine gunned the life rafts as they were thrown overboard (a war crime according to International Law). 34 men were killed and 171wounded (out of a crew of 291) this day by the Israelis. The men on board the ship call it murder. Captain Ward Boston was given one week to conduct an investigation of the attack. Before he died Ward Boston signed an affidavit stating that the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate.
    Many American intelligence servicemen have come forward stating they overheard the Israelis identifying the ship as American. I do not believe the Israeli government – I believe it is lying.

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    All right, Rurik the Raghead, since Slade's essay might be a little above your reading comprehension level, I'll try to make things real simple for you:

    "Many American intelligence servicemen have come forward saying they overheard the Israelis identifying the ship as American."

    That's because it was initially identified as American. Then when their staff officers changed shifts, the Israelis cleared it off their tracking board, assuming it must have kept on going and left the area without bothering to call through and confirm it.

    That happened because Israeli staff officers were arrogant, sloppy, and lazy.

    The flag was clearly visible, the hull markings were visible, the ship was supposedly "mistaken" for one half its size

    The pilots who arrived at the scene had no training in naval operations or ship recognition and failed to spot any of this. Someone with no training is not even going to know what part of a ship to look at to find the flag or the markings and will spot it only by luck when they're soaring past in a jet fighter. No luck for anyone that day.

    "Why the machine gunning of the lifeboats?"

    Because the Israelis are cutthroat bastards and they thought it was the Egyptians they were shooting at. They'd be happy to gun down Egyptians in lifeboats.

    "Why the jamming of communications?"

    There was no jamming. Neither the Israeli aircraft nor their torpedo boats had any electronic jamming capabilities. The radio was put out of commission by battle damage in all likelihood, which the crew probably mistook for jamming.

    "Why all this cover-up shit afterwards?"

    Sleazy politics to suppress an embarrassing accident and shut everyone up about it.


    The attack was deliberate and brutal because the Israelis thought that it was an Egyptian ship they were hitting. They arrived at the conclusion only after a clown-show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure.
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  75. @Seth Largo
    Thanks, Unz, now I can't link to this site until this inanity disappears from the front page. There's a big thick fence between "alternative news" and "lol."

    No kidding. The 9/11 truthers hadda come out. Laughable. The only conspiracy with San Bernardino is the cover-up for Mosques. Political correctness is the conspiracy. Doesn’t hurt that immigrants vote Democrat. If immigrants voted Republican, the Syrians could go screw in Syria and the Mexican Wall would be to the moon and coast-to-coast. Democrats, to stay in “power” however temporarily, are willing to sell our children’s (and their own, eventually) birthright down the road. They’re THAT confident of their relative safety. There IS no safety when you import the lower order into the First World. Fools.

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  76. @Vendetta
    Stuart Slade's essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.

    One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty's track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay "outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said." This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt's territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were uninterceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS' orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty's skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the "Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters ... and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation." (National Archives) That's glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy's attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel's fears. There was a very real fear inthe Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelies of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that "if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet." The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty's arrival in the area. Thats glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o'clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft ("gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships") 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking "GTR-5," which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. Its worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o'clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn't need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge - which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source - which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you'll find it even if it isn't there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire - a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn't. Another grievious fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: "The coast is being shelled and you - the navy - have done nothing." Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named "Pagoda," to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots - which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic - and reckless. This commander interpreted "don't shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots" as "fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots". Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don't really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don't. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target's speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref - D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 - putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a "Z" or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn't have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck - good or ill - that they didn't shoot up the Israeli FAC - they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty's crew in "stand-down" mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelies were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attackw as deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn't jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The "jamming" was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots - lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots - meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 - 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 - 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning - in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn't seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled "AA" - "identify yourself." Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence - Udi Erell's father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle's order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that "the Israelies must have known that". Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir - but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty's Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard - especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 - he wasn't trying to find out "which ship is this" he was looking for "which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me"

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw "GTR-5" on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as "obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable". By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn't do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at "60-100 miles north of Egypt." If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals - cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak - Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP's son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell's chops. If it was a conspiracy they'd have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a - Documents relating to the Liberty incident - papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn't realize the impact of the matters he's relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 - 67. 3 of Israel's FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle's statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld's sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking - but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events - his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.

     

    Rurik is an Islamic, Vendetta. He ignores the Stark, the Cole, World Trade Center, all the murder Muslims have committed since and he ingloriously concentrates on the Liberty, 50 years ago. He’s a Muslim. Rurik is a foil, he’s an implant and he’s all over the web. Waste no time on him. His story on the Liberty and hatred for Israel is Old-Hat Islam.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    Rurik wrote factual information about USSLiberty tragedy, when the perfidious Israel had attacked the US ship and then the cowardly Congress allowed a disgraceful treatment of the survived US servicemen. Judging from your obvious irritation with Rurik's story, it is doubtful that are a US army veteran (as you claimed to be).
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  77. @Rurik

    Why’d the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?
     
    in all probability the plane that was shot down over Shankville PA was intended to hit building seven. When it didn't make it, they decided to "pull it" anyways

    We are talking about a 200 ton aircraft hitting the face of a building at 500 mph,
     
    um, building seven was not hit by a plane. It suffered some superficial damage to its façade and there were a few office fires. But even if it were hit by a jet, it still wouldn't turn the whole building to powder and twisted steel beams that were obviously cut with thermite

    http://www.debunking911.com/angcut.jpg

    Rurik, you’re SUCH a Muslim. Are you STILL around? I would have thought the Saudi Arabians would have fired you for ineffectiveness in spreading the Islamic Company Line by now. Any day, if I’m wise to you, they must be too. You’re a lousy propagandist.

    How’s that investigation into the U.S.S. Liberty coming?

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  78. L.K says:
    @Vendetta
    Why'd the masterminds of this plot decide to blow Building #7 for no reason but to leave an obvious clue for truthers?

    As for your board out the window, take that 2x4 and clock yourself over the head with it. Your entire statement is sophistry. We are talking about a 200 ton aircraft hitting the face of a building at 500 mph, 50 tons or so of that weight being jet fuel. 'Hurricane force winds' simply do not compare.

    You act as though it's all common sense, "just stick a board out the window and imagine."

    If it were a 2,000 lbs. bomb that hit the tower, no one's common sense would be telling them that that impact merely created "some superficial damage to the facade."

    Armchair engineers find the physics of it impossible because they go to Wikipedia and look up the temperature at which jet fuel burns. They don't account for the fact that impact threw up dense clouds of particulate matter, which burns at much higher temperatures. Same sort of phenomenon that creates dust explosions in grain silos.

    Vendetta goes: “Armchair engineers find the physics of it impossible because they go to Wikipedia and look up the temperature at which jet fuel burns.”

    That is an extraordinarily IDIOTIC statement;

    The hundreds of engineers with http://www.ae911truth.org/ are no ”armchair engineers’ looking up stuff on wikipedia, they have actually investigated the evidence in painstaking detail, covering all the angles.

    At this point, people like u have no reason to be unfamiliar with their work… u r either lazy or worse.

    Vendetta then offers us this pearl!
    “Stuart Slade’s essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.”

    Sure, sure, how convenient eh, ‘vendetta’?? You seem to cover a lot for the zionists/israelis, don’t you?
    The alternative to it is even worse and would suggest that the following German saying fits u like a glove: “Gegen Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.”

    Israel’s Deliberate and Brutal Attack on the USS Liberty – Ernest Gallo, CIA Retired

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Fuck you and fuck Israel too, twat.

    My apologies for not providing this essay for you in your preferred form of video, as your illiterate ass clearly didn't take the time to read beyond the first paragraph.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn’t do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. It's right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60-100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.
     
    If that's your idea of hasbara, you're an idiot.
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  79. Rurik says:

    Ahh, the shitstain himself !

    heh, heh

    it would take a shitstain to besmirch the memory of the US sailors who were murdered by your cowardly IDF now wouldn’t it?

    and then to heap umbrage upon their memory you go around shilling yourself off as a Navy boy. That’s rich. I’d love to see you at one of the Liberty’s Yearly memorial get-togethers and try to tell them it was Muslims who did it, or laugh at their loss.

    but then that’s you isn’t it shitstain?

    your shtick is tired and by now transparent. You go around and try to get sympathy from American conservative types by pretending to be anti-Muslim and against Muslim immigration, which isn’t a hard sell. And then like all shitstains, you segue into your ‘all Palestinians are evil terrorist and must be killed!’ hysterics and make a giant asshole of yourself. It’s really become a rather comical routine by now. I look forward to eviscerating you in the futures shitstain. It’ll be fun! Perhaps provide some comic relief here at the Unz.

    ; )

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    • Replies: @L.K
    Hey Rurik,

    You know, one thing that I've noticed looking into 9-11, is that there are all these disinfo agents, opportunists and kooks, u know, people like Judy Wood, Alex jones, gordon duff, etc, who attach themselves to the 9-11 Truth movement and, by virtue of all the crazy nonsense they push, end up discrediting all the hard work done by hundreds of serious researchers.
    It is intentional and It pisses me off.

    Take care.
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  80. Jefferson says:

    Have the racial demographics of San Bernardino gotten so dark that Pakistanis now look White there when compared to the majority of the city’s population? No way would Pakistanis be mistaken for being White in that city back when San Bernardino was still majority Northern European English, German, and Irish descent.

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  81. L.K says:

    The first post in the thread, by Anonymous, re the Gladio networks in Europe during the cold war, is key to understand the whole synthetic/phony ‘war on terror’.
    The concept is to create a ‘Strategy of tension”, which can then be used to advance agendas.

    A former Italian Prime Minister, an Italian judge, and the former head of Italian counterintelligence admitted that NATO, with the help of the Pentagon and CIA, carried out terror bombings in Italy and other European countries during the cold war and blamed the communists, in order to rally people’s support for their governments in Europe in their fight against communism.
    Listen to what one operative in this formerly-secret program stated:
    Gladio Veteran Tells the Truth about False Flag Terrorism

    “You had to attack civilians, people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security”

    Terror attacks were also carried out in France, Spain, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Turkey, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the UK, etc.

    Regarding the strategy of tension initiated by the 9-11 false flag attacks( in fact even before 9-11);

    Ted Gunderson Former FBI Chief – Most Terror Attacks Are Committed By Our CIA And FBI

    Robert David Steele – a 20-year Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer, the second-ranking civilian in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence, and former CIA clandestine services case officer, had this to say about most terrorist attacks in America, @ about 15:08

    “Most terrorists are false flag terrorists or are created by our own security services.
    [***]
    In the United States, every single terrorist incident we have had has been a false flag, or has been an informant pushed on by the FBI.
    In fact, we now have citizens taking out restraining orders against FBI informants that are trying to incite terrorism. We’ve become a lunatic asylum.”

    The FBI Creates, Then “Foils” Terror Plots – False Flags Exposed By Judge Napolitano

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  82. L.K says:
    @Rurik
    Ahh, the shitstain himself !

    heh, heh

    it would take a shitstain to besmirch the memory of the US sailors who were murdered by your cowardly IDF now wouldn't it?

    and then to heap umbrage upon their memory you go around shilling yourself off as a Navy boy. That's rich. I'd love to see you at one of the Liberty's Yearly memorial get-togethers and try to tell them it was Muslims who did it, or laugh at their loss.

    but then that's you isn't it shitstain?

    your shtick is tired and by now transparent. You go around and try to get sympathy from American conservative types by pretending to be anti-Muslim and against Muslim immigration, which isn't a hard sell. And then like all shitstains, you segue into your 'all Palestinians are evil terrorist and must be killed!' hysterics and make a giant asshole of yourself. It's really become a rather comical routine by now. I look forward to eviscerating you in the futures shitstain. It'll be fun! Perhaps provide some comic relief here at the Unz.

    ; )

    Hey Rurik,

    You know, one thing that I’ve noticed looking into 9-11, is that there are all these disinfo agents, opportunists and kooks, u know, people like Judy Wood, Alex jones, gordon duff, etc, who attach themselves to the 9-11 Truth movement and, by virtue of all the crazy nonsense they push, end up discrediting all the hard work done by hundreds of serious researchers.
    It is intentional and It pisses me off.

    Take care.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    LK, Rurik is an agent of Saudi Arabia. No mention of the Cole, the Starke, WTC, the murders committed by his people.

    He concentrates on Israel, on USS Liberty. Fifty years ago. He could not care less about the Liberty or her crew. USS Liberty is something he pulls from the distant past to push the Saudi-Arabian political line.

    Rurik is All-Islam, all the time. And, he's a vile and profane man when he runs out of arguments. Disagree and shitstain is his favorite word. He lives in a Mosque. Fecal matter runs in rivers in Mosques, at least, the ones Rurik hangs out in.
    , @Rurik
    Hey LK,

    yes, there is a cacophony surrounding these acts of war and perfidious treachery because the men who committed those crimes are still entrenched in power. And there's a lot of hangers-on; GOP and DNC establishment, msm, assorted Zionists and worried Jews, the bovine cud-chewers and assorted sheep who'd rather die than think.

    And I have visited sites like Rense where they talk about aliens and I just wince.

    Gordon Duff has admitted publically that he lies when it's prudent, so we have to take things where we can find them.

    What no one can change is the videos of building seven coming down. Any child can see that a building doesn't fall like that on its own. In fact I think especially child, because too many adults have killed off their brains by a lifetime of fear and loathing of saying the obvious if it's frowned upon. It's no accident that it was a boy that noticed that the emperor had no clothes. Adults have learned to shut out uncomfortable truths, no matter how obvious. They've learned how to become skilled liars when it might benefit them to do so. They've learned how to 'see' things that aren't there, if it pays to 'see' them. And so we get a lot of the manure being spread around to stink up a discussion and obfuscate the truth. But you can't obfuscate what's obvious, at least to young and open minds still capable of thinking and reasoning without filters.

    It is those minds we are speaking to, and that eventual army of truthers who will rain down justice upon this earth.
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  83. L.K says:

    The above article on the san bernadino shooting is indeed flawed.

    Vendetta hysterically points out the author does not understand firearms and shootouts.
    He is right.

    But, but, there is still a LOT that stinks up to high heavens about the story we are being told.

    For example, how bizarre is this;

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-county-employees-return-20151207-story.html

    San Bernardino shooting happened in same room as earlier ‘active-shooter training’

    “About a year ago, employees of San Bernardino County’s Environmental Health Services division underwent an “active-shooter training.”
    “It was held at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino — in the very same room that would one day be a site of bloodshed and horror.”
    “It was not clear if gunman Syed Rizwan Farook, an environmental health specialist for the county, attended the earlier training, but some of the victims of Wednesday’s mass shooting were likely to have participated, said a county spokeswoman.”

    What r the odds, eh? Probably nuthing, just one of those pesky coincidences… or not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Vendetta hysterically points out the author does not understand firearms and shootouts.
    He is right.
     
    You don't need to understand the technical details of firearms to know that a young newlywed woman with a newborn baby does not abandon her baby and go off and be a terrorist commando.

    Seriously, WTF is wrong with people who cannot see that?
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  84. @L.K
    Hey Rurik,

    You know, one thing that I've noticed looking into 9-11, is that there are all these disinfo agents, opportunists and kooks, u know, people like Judy Wood, Alex jones, gordon duff, etc, who attach themselves to the 9-11 Truth movement and, by virtue of all the crazy nonsense they push, end up discrediting all the hard work done by hundreds of serious researchers.
    It is intentional and It pisses me off.

    Take care.

    LK, Rurik is an agent of Saudi Arabia. No mention of the Cole, the Starke, WTC, the murders committed by his people.

    He concentrates on Israel, on USS Liberty. Fifty years ago. He could not care less about the Liberty or her crew. USS Liberty is something he pulls from the distant past to push the Saudi-Arabian political line.

    Rurik is All-Islam, all the time. And, he’s a vile and profane man when he runs out of arguments. Disagree and shitstain is his favorite word. He lives in a Mosque. Fecal matter runs in rivers in Mosques, at least, the ones Rurik hangs out in.

    Read More
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  85. Truth says:
    @Rurik
    oh lord, really?

    you're trying to make a case that building seven fell at free-fall speed directly into its basement because of some office fires?

    these building burned like infernos for hours without plopping into their basements

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

    if you want to know what firefighters said on 911, google "keep an eye on that building it's coming down ..."

    here's one, I did it for you

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHtvN26yPvY

    if you work in an office building and a room catches on fire and spreads to another room, how many people are going to run out of the building immediately in fear that the entire building is going to implode?

    if there were any fear of such a thing ever happening, as it's never happened in the history of steel frame buildings, either before or since 911, there would be massive efforts to reinforce all the steel frame sky scrapers and insure that all the steel doesn't magically vaporize into nice lengths for easy transport to waiting ships to China. - To be melted down without forensic studies to determine just how this impossible engineering miracle of physics transpired. But how many building have been thus checked out?

    None?

    But surely they're all unsafe!

    If they can all just plop like a rock into their footprint at some superficial damage to their facade, then surly efforts are being made in every city in the world to re-engineer these building, no? Why not?

    Was 911 a magical day when news agencies and fire dept.'s were all magically able to predict an impossible event before it happened but it we can all rest assured that it will never happen again, because 911 was just a magical day?

    Eh?

    “oh lord, really?
    you’re trying to make a case that building seven fell at free-fall speed directly into its basement because of some office fires?”

    You have to understand, Bro, Mr. Anon is obsessed with driving a water-powered car.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "You have to understand, Bro, Mr. Anon is obsessed with driving a water-powered car."

    You are the guy who thinks there is such a thing as a water-fueled car, shit-for-brains.
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  86. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian
    Rurik is an Islamic, Vendetta. He ignores the Stark, the Cole, World Trade Center, all the murder Muslims have committed since and he ingloriously concentrates on the Liberty, 50 years ago. He's a Muslim. Rurik is a foil, he's an implant and he's all over the web. Waste no time on him. His story on the Liberty and hatred for Israel is Old-Hat Islam.

    Rurik wrote factual information about USSLiberty tragedy, when the perfidious Israel had attacked the US ship and then the cowardly Congress allowed a disgraceful treatment of the survived US servicemen. Judging from your obvious irritation with Rurik’s story, it is doubtful that are a US army veteran (as you claimed to be).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    If you're interested in factual information, take a read through that essay by Stuart Slade. At the very least, you have to be able to refute it as wrong if you're going to defend the idea that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship and did it on purpose.
    , @Jim Christian
    50 years ago. Lot of water under the bridge since then, and a lot of attacks by Islam since, which you and Rurik ignore. Annamarina, you and Kurik are the San Bernardino shooters to me. Soul mates, mutual admiration society. You both hate the U.S. and wish the same failed strategy YOUR President Obama wished for us. YOU, little girrrrrl, are SO transparent. Well, when you aren't submitting to YouPorn.
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  87. Vendetta says:
    @Rurik
    just ask yourself why the jets that were scrambled to assist the Liberty while it was under cowardly attack were recalled by president Johnson by way of Defense Secretary Robert McNamara .. twice?

    why did the Israelis machine gun the life boats?

    why was the commander given a congressional medal of honor, in secret?

    why was the crew ordered not to talk about it on pain of court martial?

    why isn't there a crew member alive that says it might have been an accident?

    just some question off the top of my head. There are many more...




    here's the USS Liberty's official site

    http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

    The War Crimes Report we filed lists allegations of acts committed during the attack on our ship, including:
    •The jamming of our radios on both US Navy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies;
    •The use of unmarked aircraft by the forces attacking the USS Liberty;
    •The deliberate machine gunning of life rafts we had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship; and
    •The recall of two flights of rescue aircraft that had been launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers. After those flights were recalled, Sixth Fleet personnel listened to our calls for help as the attack continued knowing they were forbidden to come to our assistance.


    The Department of Defense has unilaterally waived its obligation under the Department of Defense Law of War Program by refusing to investigate the allegations contained in the War Crimes Report. The Department of Defense has also refused to provide a speaker to address the crew of the USS Liberty and explain their actions with regard to the War Crimes Report.


    here is a statement

    On June 8, 1967 the USS Liberty was cruising in the Mediterranean in International waters ordered to monitor the Israeli-Arab war. In the morning the ship was circled a dozen times by low flying Nord propeller "boxcars" at mast height with Israeli designation. The planes flew at mast height; the men on the ship could see the teeth of the pilots as they smiled. They waved at them. The ship was flying a 4’ x 7’ American flag; it stood straight out on a clear, breezy day. The ship had large letter designation on the bow GTR-5. The attack by unmarked Israeli planes (Israel says the attack was an accident – the ship was an Egyptian horse carrier – less than 1/2 the size of the USS Liberty) commenced in the afternoon in International waters. After the attack with cannon, rockets, napalm and torpedo fire; the torpedo boats came back and machine gunned the life rafts as they were thrown overboard (a war crime according to International Law). 34 men were killed and 171wounded (out of a crew of 291) this day by the Israelis. The men on board the ship call it murder. Captain Ward Boston was given one week to conduct an investigation of the attack. Before he died Ward Boston signed an affidavit stating that the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate.
    Many American intelligence servicemen have come forward stating they overheard the Israelis identifying the ship as American. I do not believe the Israeli government – I believe it is lying.

    All right, Rurik the Raghead, since Slade’s essay might be a little above your reading comprehension level, I’ll try to make things real simple for you:

    “Many American intelligence servicemen have come forward saying they overheard the Israelis identifying the ship as American.”

    That’s because it was initially identified as American. Then when their staff officers changed shifts, the Israelis cleared it off their tracking board, assuming it must have kept on going and left the area without bothering to call through and confirm it.

    That happened because Israeli staff officers were arrogant, sloppy, and lazy.

    The flag was clearly visible, the hull markings were visible, the ship was supposedly “mistaken” for one half its size

    The pilots who arrived at the scene had no training in naval operations or ship recognition and failed to spot any of this. Someone with no training is not even going to know what part of a ship to look at to find the flag or the markings and will spot it only by luck when they’re soaring past in a jet fighter. No luck for anyone that day.

    “Why the machine gunning of the lifeboats?”

    Because the Israelis are cutthroat bastards and they thought it was the Egyptians they were shooting at. They’d be happy to gun down Egyptians in lifeboats.

    “Why the jamming of communications?”

    There was no jamming. Neither the Israeli aircraft nor their torpedo boats had any electronic jamming capabilities. The radio was put out of commission by battle damage in all likelihood, which the crew probably mistook for jamming.

    “Why all this cover-up shit afterwards?”

    Sleazy politics to suppress an embarrassing accident and shut everyone up about it.

    The attack was deliberate and brutal because the Israelis thought that it was an Egyptian ship they were hitting. They arrived at the conclusion only after a clown-show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Dear Vendetta,

    I must say those are the lamest, most pathetic excuses for Israeli state sponsored terrorism against the United States, I have ever seen.

    Truly pathetic.

    About as pathetic as the 19 trillion dollar national debt our nation has accrued by engaging in 15 years of wars of aggression based on Neocon fraud.

    But I suppose that has all just been an "accident" too ?

    as in ......The Neocon" Office of Special Plans" arrived at the conclusion that Iraq was an" imminent threat" to the United States....only after a "clown- show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure."......


    I think you may have "flubbed" on this one, Vendetta....

    Perhaps you should just walk away ?
    , @geokat62
    Here's one of my previous posts on this topic:

    Those who deny the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate, I invite you to watch this BBC documentary:

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

    The highlight of the video is a quote by Research Officer, Dave Lewis, at 21:01

    “If it was an accident, it was the best planned accident I’ve ever heard of.”
     
    , @Rurik

    All right, Rurik the Raghead,
     
    poor Vendetta doesn't like getting bitch slapped in public. Sometime when it's necessary to bitch slap a fool in public its for their own good. You're trying to do them a favor and help them to stop making an ass of themselves. But being a fool, they sometimes still don't learn.

    That’s because it was initially identified as American. Then when their staff officers changed shifts, the Israelis cleared it off their tracking board, assuming it must have kept on going and left the area without bothering to call through and confirm it
     
    what are you doing here?

    this is site is for grown ups and people with a shred of cognitive tools. Even most of the dis-info trolls at least make an effort. This is childish. Any adolescent boy could distinguish between an old Egyptian rust bucket and a state of the art US Navy intelligence ship flying the flag.

    so the question becomes.. are you that fucking stupid? Or are you just some lazy jerkoff who's bored and gets his kicks by being an apologist for rotten, cowardly, murderous scum who treacherously attacked a friendly vessel full of men who considered Israel a friend. A cowardly and dishonorable act of war.

    Every single cowardly rat-bastard who was responsible for that crime should have been immediately (and none too gently) handed over to US authorities with the shame and humiliation that would be appropriate for a country who's enjoyed so much benevolence and good will from the American people and who returned that largess and good will by ambushing our sailors and trying to murder them all to the last man- these scum need to be brought to these shores and tried and hanged by the neck until their dancing shoes stopped kicking.

    That's what should have happened. And that's what needs to happen now sooner than later. As long as the possibility exists that some of those cockroaches are hiding in the crevices of that "shitty little country", it is an abomination to the memory of those murdered sailors. And a stain on our military's honor.

    But those cowards and murderers are not coming here, unless it's to piss on those sailors graves and mockingly laugh in the face of the survivors.

    And the reason for that is because of people like you. People who would hold those Israeli's cocks while they're pissing on those graves. And if some of the piss gets on your hands, well it's very, very clear to all what you would be willing to do to show your craven obeisance to men who've slaughtered your fellow country men like they were so many useless cows, huh?

    the rest of your idiotic blather isn't even worth responding to

    The pilots who arrived at the scene had no training in naval operations or ship recognition
     
    again, WTF are you doing here?

    but we all know, don't we

    you're here to spread lies and figuratively hold the cocks of the men who murdered our sailors.

    you're here to take a massive dump on the memory of the men who lost their lives on that day

    war is war. Men (and women) lose their lives in war. It's part of it. But one thing that you don't do is stab your comrade in the back. One thing about war is you want to know that the other men in the foxhole with you are at least on your side. It's enough that the enemy is trying to kill you. You don't need to be looking at your fellow soldiers and wondering if the next bullet flying your way will be coming from them if you turn your back.

    But that is the Israeli way. Cowards and treacherous lying assassins who shoot when your back is turned, because they want to blame the murder on someone else, and get others to do their fighting for them. Because they're cowards. Just like with 911. Cowards. Plotting and scheming and looking at you in the eye while their thinking of how to back-stab you without getting caught. Well.. bitch, this time they got caught. Red handed. That's why they had to cough up some of those precious shekels didn't they?

    Anyways keep posting. You idiots are useful as foils to bounce the truth off of and see it reverberate into the ether. When enough of it is in the air, perhaps they'll think twice before they plan their next cowardly atrocity.

    The things I'm saying need to be said. Men like Pollard and those scum who ordered the attack on the Liberty, (and most of all the traitorous bitches and two bit imbeciles who try to make excuses for them) need to be held to account.
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  88. Vendetta says:
    @annamaria
    Rurik wrote factual information about USSLiberty tragedy, when the perfidious Israel had attacked the US ship and then the cowardly Congress allowed a disgraceful treatment of the survived US servicemen. Judging from your obvious irritation with Rurik's story, it is doubtful that are a US army veteran (as you claimed to be).

    If you’re interested in factual information, take a read through that essay by Stuart Slade. At the very least, you have to be able to refute it as wrong if you’re going to defend the idea that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship and did it on purpose.

    Read More
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  89. Vendetta says:
    @L.K
    Vendetta goes: "Armchair engineers find the physics of it impossible because they go to Wikipedia and look up the temperature at which jet fuel burns."

    That is an extraordinarily IDIOTIC statement;

    The hundreds of engineers with http://www.ae911truth.org/ are no ''armchair engineers' looking up stuff on wikipedia, they have actually investigated the evidence in painstaking detail, covering all the angles.

    At this point, people like u have no reason to be unfamiliar with their work... u r either lazy or worse.

    Vendetta then offers us this pearl!
    "Stuart Slade’s essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis."

    Sure, sure, how convenient eh, 'vendetta'?? You seem to cover a lot for the zionists/israelis, don't you?
    The alternative to it is even worse and would suggest that the following German saying fits u like a glove: "Gegen Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens."

    Israel's Deliberate and Brutal Attack on the USS Liberty - Ernest Gallo, CIA Retired
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Cd59dbZtw

    Fuck you and fuck Israel too, twat.

    My apologies for not providing this essay for you in your preferred form of video, as your illiterate ass clearly didn’t take the time to read beyond the first paragraph.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn’t do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. It’s right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60-100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    If that’s your idea of hasbara, you’re an idiot.

    Read More
    • Agree: This Is Our Home
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  90. @annamaria
    Rurik wrote factual information about USSLiberty tragedy, when the perfidious Israel had attacked the US ship and then the cowardly Congress allowed a disgraceful treatment of the survived US servicemen. Judging from your obvious irritation with Rurik's story, it is doubtful that are a US army veteran (as you claimed to be).

    50 years ago. Lot of water under the bridge since then, and a lot of attacks by Islam since, which you and Rurik ignore. Annamarina, you and Kurik are the San Bernardino shooters to me. Soul mates, mutual admiration society. You both hate the U.S. and wish the same failed strategy YOUR President Obama wished for us. YOU, little girrrrrl, are SO transparent. Well, when you aren’t submitting to YouPorn.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    50 years ago.
     
    It's the most notorious example, but the modus operandi of those people has not changed meanwhile.

    The JFK assassination was 50 years ago too. But the modus operandi on these Deep State operations has not changed too much. There are typically patsies who get framed. Then it was a white boy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Lot of water under the bridge since then, and a lot of attacks by Islam
     
    Those of us who have a clue about these issues know that the Muslims being framed are patsies, like the aforementioned Oswald.

    But there is the point that, even if they were Muslims, how does that constitute attacks by Islam? If some guy named John Smith goes and shoots some people, does anybody ever say that is an attack by Christianity? In fact, nobody will even mention whether that person was a Catholic or a Lutheran or what, because it's not considered relevant.

    So all this stuff about how we are being "attacked by Islam", this is just revealing yourself as a weak-minded fool who cannot think for himself, and thus, accepts any absurd framing of any issue that they put out there.
    , @annamaria
    You mean that we find the role of Israel detrimental for the US? Yes. Agree. There are power games by people that are not interested in their countrymen but only in money and power, whatever cost for the countrymen.
    But why you have pretended to be a US serviceman while you had not served in the US army?
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  91. @Anonymous
    And you're a Jew.

    And you’re a Jew.

    You’d better watch it, boy, or you’ll be one of the first that we put in the FEMA camps.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I just can't wait to see all of the video surveillance footage that is surely available. That should put to rest whether they were two or three shooters; white or black.
    Wait....
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  92. Thirdeye says:
    @Anonymous
    Actually in the original report a 3rd suspect was detained. But then poof, they disappeared.

    Released, not disappeared.

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  93. jackson says:
    @Anonymous
    They were Pakistani i.e. South Asian, not Middle Eastern. South Asians tend to be darker than Middle Easterners, and their photographs reveal them to be 2 darkly complexioned South Asians who would not be confused for 3 tall athletic white men.

    Farook was probably a Pakistani Arab. There are plenty of Arabs in Pakistan, Farook and Saeed are Arab names, and the daughter was also given an Arab rather than Pakistani name.

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  94. Thirdeye says:
    @Sam J.
    The single most important act about false flags is building #7. Building #7 was not hit by a plane. The third skyscraper to fall on 9-11. The North and South tower shouldn’t have fallen like they did either. After all the whole building is built to hold up the top. If the top falls a floor or two from airplane crashes the strength of the bottom doesn’t magically disappear. These building were designed to face hurricane force winds pushing them sideways. Stick a 12" x 12", one square foot, board out of your car window at 70 MPH and see how it pushes on your arm. Now imagine double that force for 140 MPH winds and then add up ALL the square feet on the side of the building and multiply times that force you felt. The force of the top falling a few floors onto the bottom floors, designed to take this force, is trivial compared to hurricane force winds.

    Back to building #7. They say it fell from fire. Here’s direct evidence it didn’t. They said the North tower fell on it causing massive damage. There was some damage but not enough to bring the building down “symmetrically”. Meaning all four sides fell at roughly the same rate. Even though it had damage to only one side and some sides seemed to have little to no damage. So a building with no damage or very little to some sides and no fire engulfing the building fell the same speed as a rock dropped next to it in the air, with nothing supporting the rock, for roughly 108 feet. No matter how big the fires there is resistance to the building falling from the concrete, from columns that haven’t been melted by fire and by the columns themselves. Have you ever seen molten steel? Do you imagine that even molten steel has no resistance to being moved or crushed? (Not that I’m saying the steel was molten, it wasn’t. I’m just comparing the most absurd example.) Here’s a video of reporters going into building #7 AFTER the North tower supposedly fell on it and destroyed it sufficiently enough for it to collapse completely. Look at :54 you see the #7 for the building on the door.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLqGRv7CQlc

    Now you’ve seen video of the inside where there is NO massive damage to make all four sides of the building fall. You want pictures of the back? Here’s a picture of the South side of building #7, facing the North tower, after it had fallen. There is no huge gaping hole. There is no massive fire going all the way up the building. So you can’t say it’s the other side and we have plenty of video and pictures of the North side of build #7 pictures with no damage at all. NIST has had to release a lot of video due the FOIA.

    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/docs/b7_nofire.jpg

    Here’ another NIST FOIA released video taken between one and two hours before building #7 fell. There’s around three floors on fire.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IssGRpcB_ms

    (Watch the reporter pan up at 2:54. You can clearly see the whole building is not on fire. This side shown is the North side of building #7. Later you can see the fires mostly around three or four floors only and in isolated spots.)
    If the fires were hot enough to melt steel then why isn’t the glass in the windows melted? Glass melts at an extremely lower temperature that steel. Ever put a metal can and a glass bottle in a campfire? The glass bottle melts but the steel can will still be intact. These fires were no hotter than a campfire. One last video of all sides from 23 angles also showing the miraculous collapse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnLcUxV1dPo

    Fireman retired so now he can talk. He was right next to the damn building. Says,”…there was an explosion and the building came down…”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQrpLp-X0ws

    For more info look at a site by some engineers that lay out the evidence.

    http://www.ae911truth.org/

    Every since I learned the facts about building #7 I've never been able to look at any of these attacks the same. It's logical to assume that it's false flags if the facts don't fit what we're being told. Building #7 is confirmation that these go on. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a building to fall as fast as a rock dropped in mid air no mater how big the fires are. It can't happen. You can call us truthers, Wiki Whacks, nug nuggs or whatever and it doesn't change the fact that buildings can't fall with no resistance unless all support is removed beneath them.

    The wind load argument is irrelevant to the cascading failure of the diaphragm floors. The forces act perpendicular to one another. The design loads of floors are much smaller than the design wind loads acting on the whole building.

    The Building 7 argument does not support the case for “false flag” sabotage for the simple reason that the supposed demolition of 1 and 2 was supposedly disguised by the aircraft hits. There was nothing “disguising” the collapse of 7. Let’s see, the saboteurs had some leftover demo charges from the demo job on 1 and 2, which would be cleverly disguised by aircraft hits, so they decided to take down 7 just for jollies even though it would blow their cover because it wasn’t disguised, right? Calling the collapse of 7 evidence for demo on 1 and 2 doesn’t stand under the weight of its own logical contradictions.

    Read More
    • Agree: Vendetta
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  95. Thirdeye says:

    It’s bad enough that comment threads so often get hijacked by conspiracy theory fruitcakes without having articles by conspiracy theory fruitcakes.

    Read More
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  96. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Aaron Gross
    And you’re a Jew.

    You'd better watch it, boy, or you'll be one of the first that we put in the FEMA camps.

    I just can’t wait to see all of the video surveillance footage that is surely available. That should put to rest whether they were two or three shooters; white or black.
    Wait….

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  97. @James Kabala
    My point is that the dreaded agenda never comes. I don't care for Obama or most of our other government leaders, but I don't think that they are evil masterminds smart enough to plan these things yet at the same time dumb enough to keep saying to themselves "By golly, just one more fake massacre and the common folk will finally support gun confiscation!" You would think that after the first several failures they would realize that it was a failed idea and give up.

    “By golly, just one more fake massacre and the common folk will finally support gun confiscation!”

    Well, who said that that is the sole agenda being served by the string of false flag attacks? France already has strict gun control, so that is not the agenda of the people behind these events in Paris. What the events in France have in common with this one is the framing of Arab patsies, as well as the very tenuous claims that there is some link to ISIS, i.e. to Syria.

    In general, if you can foment this fear and loathing of Arabs, and Muslims generally, in the population, it makes all these brutal wars in the Middle East that much more politically possible. If people thought of these people as just ordinary folks like you and me, how much more politically difficult would it be to get all these wars going?

    Read More
    • Replies: @James Kabala
    And yet most of our politicians fall over themselves to defend the average Muslim and to explicitly sell our foreign wars as not anti-Muslim wars. This was as true of Bush and Cheney as it is of Obama and Hillary Clinton. Is the real killer Donald Trump?

    (And there are also truthers for non-Muslim Sandy Hook.)

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  98. @L.K
    The above article on the san bernadino shooting is indeed flawed.

    Vendetta hysterically points out the author does not understand firearms and shootouts.
    He is right.

    But, but, there is still a LOT that stinks up to high heavens about the story we are being told.

    For example, how bizarre is this;
    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-county-employees-return-20151207-story.html
    San Bernardino shooting happened in same room as earlier 'active-shooter training'

    “About a year ago, employees of San Bernardino County’s Environmental Health Services division underwent an “active-shooter training.”
    “It was held at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino — in the very same room that would one day be a site of bloodshed and horror.”
    “It was not clear if gunman Syed Rizwan Farook, an environmental health specialist for the county, attended the earlier training, but some of the victims of Wednesday’s mass shooting were likely to have participated, said a county spokeswoman.”

    What r the odds, eh? Probably nuthing, just one of those pesky coincidences... or not.

    Vendetta hysterically points out the author does not understand firearms and shootouts.
    He is right.

    You don’t need to understand the technical details of firearms to know that a young newlywed woman with a newborn baby does not abandon her baby and go off and be a terrorist commando.

    Seriously, WTF is wrong with people who cannot see that?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Bonnie and Clyde don't ring any bells? Or you don't even except 1 in 3.5 billion odds that a woman with a child can turn out to be a murderous psychopath?
    , @James Kabala
    I will never trust the gold box again.
    , @L.K
    J.Revusky,

    I agree with you. But my point was that when people looking into these odd terror attacks/mass shootings, such as the author of the above article, advance weak notions out of ignorance, they, even if well meaning, open themselves up to sharp criticism by cretins like vendetta.
    The likes of vendetta will then focus on these peripheral issues and then throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Regards
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  99. @Jim Christian
    50 years ago. Lot of water under the bridge since then, and a lot of attacks by Islam since, which you and Rurik ignore. Annamarina, you and Kurik are the San Bernardino shooters to me. Soul mates, mutual admiration society. You both hate the U.S. and wish the same failed strategy YOUR President Obama wished for us. YOU, little girrrrrl, are SO transparent. Well, when you aren't submitting to YouPorn.

    50 years ago.

    It’s the most notorious example, but the modus operandi of those people has not changed meanwhile.

    The JFK assassination was 50 years ago too. But the modus operandi on these Deep State operations has not changed too much. There are typically patsies who get framed. Then it was a white boy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Lot of water under the bridge since then, and a lot of attacks by Islam

    Those of us who have a clue about these issues know that the Muslims being framed are patsies, like the aforementioned Oswald.

    But there is the point that, even if they were Muslims, how does that constitute attacks by Islam? If some guy named John Smith goes and shoots some people, does anybody ever say that is an attack by Christianity? In fact, nobody will even mention whether that person was a Catholic or a Lutheran or what, because it’s not considered relevant.

    So all this stuff about how we are being “attacked by Islam”, this is just revealing yourself as a weak-minded fool who cannot think for himself, and thus, accepts any absurd framing of any issue that they put out there.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hey JR,

    'Jim Christian' is a IDF type snake.

    but even when I was a child I liked to play with snakes. Sometimes I'd grab one and scare my brother with it (he was afraid of snakes). Or just sort of let them slither in my hand, scared and trying to get away. I never really hurt them, but I know they didn't like 'playing' with me.

    Anyways he's as far from being a Christen as you can get and he goes around with that moniker as a joke he thinks he playing while he belches anti-Muslim hysterics, pretending that anyone who doesn't consider all Muslims as terrorists are shitlibs with mush for brains. The only thing he has going for him is that shitlibs do have mush for brains, and do want to import all Muslims (and everyone else) into America and everywhere else. So he uses that obvious insanity to impugn all Muslims as head-slicers because a few of them are.

    Like I said, he's a snake. But unlike peoples phobias and fears, snakes can be fun to play with.
    , @Jim Christian
    Sure, sure. You dream up anything you care to put out there, blame the United States and when I call bullshit on your conspiracy, I am a weak-minded fool. Meanwhile, you have a Muslim ax to grind in these forums. You too hate the Jews. And when your arguments get the customary holes poked into them, everyone but you is a weak minded fool.

    Let me tell you something about conspiracies, Revuski. There were hundreds of federal, state and local cops and investigators in on this and God only knows how many spooks. But in every conspiracy, there is an exposure of the plot to a whistle blower. Now maybe that pops up sometime, my mind is open, it certainly did in the Kennedy assassinations, Jack AND Bob. But San Bernardino? That was Muslims, radical Islam at work. Hang the ISIS tag, hang whatever label you want on it, hate-filled Islamic Terror did that.

    If it's something else, other than your hatred for the United States, name the source that has exposed this conspiracy? We need to get them into court and get them testifying. In the meantime, your ravings and dreams that it was something else mean nothing. Only the weak-of-mind listen to your ravings, or read them I should say and think you could be on to something. Blame the Jews, blame the government, blame everyone and everything else but the fact that Islam has hateful intentions. Allah Akbar, baby!

    And a Merry Christmas to you sir.
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  100. alexander says:
    @Vendetta
    All right, Rurik the Raghead, since Slade's essay might be a little above your reading comprehension level, I'll try to make things real simple for you:

    "Many American intelligence servicemen have come forward saying they overheard the Israelis identifying the ship as American."

    That's because it was initially identified as American. Then when their staff officers changed shifts, the Israelis cleared it off their tracking board, assuming it must have kept on going and left the area without bothering to call through and confirm it.

    That happened because Israeli staff officers were arrogant, sloppy, and lazy.

    The flag was clearly visible, the hull markings were visible, the ship was supposedly "mistaken" for one half its size

    The pilots who arrived at the scene had no training in naval operations or ship recognition and failed to spot any of this. Someone with no training is not even going to know what part of a ship to look at to find the flag or the markings and will spot it only by luck when they're soaring past in a jet fighter. No luck for anyone that day.

    "Why the machine gunning of the lifeboats?"

    Because the Israelis are cutthroat bastards and they thought it was the Egyptians they were shooting at. They'd be happy to gun down Egyptians in lifeboats.

    "Why the jamming of communications?"

    There was no jamming. Neither the Israeli aircraft nor their torpedo boats had any electronic jamming capabilities. The radio was put out of commission by battle damage in all likelihood, which the crew probably mistook for jamming.

    "Why all this cover-up shit afterwards?"

    Sleazy politics to suppress an embarrassing accident and shut everyone up about it.


    The attack was deliberate and brutal because the Israelis thought that it was an Egyptian ship they were hitting. They arrived at the conclusion only after a clown-show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure.

    Dear Vendetta,

    I must say those are the lamest, most pathetic excuses for Israeli state sponsored terrorism against the United States, I have ever seen.

    Truly pathetic.

    About as pathetic as the 19 trillion dollar national debt our nation has accrued by engaging in 15 years of wars of aggression based on Neocon fraud.

    But I suppose that has all just been an “accident” too ?

    as in ……The Neocon” Office of Special Plans” arrived at the conclusion that Iraq was an” imminent threat” to the United States….only after a “clown- show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure.”……

    I think you may have “flubbed” on this one, Vendetta….

    Perhaps you should just walk away ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    ...clown- show of errors...
     
    I disagree. There was nothing erroneous about it. They deliberately intended to deceive the public that Iraq constituted a real and imminent threat to the US.
    , @Vendetta
    Dear Alexander,

    Read the article in its entirety and debunk the argument on its merits, or else fuck off because you are clearly out of your element.
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  101. @rod1963
    Lots different, the PNAC crowd operated in the open and still do. No conspiracy. When you have power you don't need to operate in the dark.

    If there is a conspiracy, it is the silence of the MSM refusing to report on them.

    Immigration/globalism isn't a conspiracy, it's plainly driven by short term profit seeking or trying to get money out a turnip by a wide array of businesses and super wealthy individuals who openly state what they are trying to do. You find that in the major business periodicals.

    Yes, immigrationism is plainly stated. It is passionately argued for all over the media and has millions of proud true believers. One would have to be truly locked-in not to notice it.

    On the other hand, all of these crackpot conspiracy theories are alleging that secret forces with barely knowable aims are behind every world event.

    There is as much comparison between the two as between science and Scientology.

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  102. geokat62 says:
    @Vendetta
    All right, Rurik the Raghead, since Slade's essay might be a little above your reading comprehension level, I'll try to make things real simple for you:

    "Many American intelligence servicemen have come forward saying they overheard the Israelis identifying the ship as American."

    That's because it was initially identified as American. Then when their staff officers changed shifts, the Israelis cleared it off their tracking board, assuming it must have kept on going and left the area without bothering to call through and confirm it.

    That happened because Israeli staff officers were arrogant, sloppy, and lazy.

    The flag was clearly visible, the hull markings were visible, the ship was supposedly "mistaken" for one half its size

    The pilots who arrived at the scene had no training in naval operations or ship recognition and failed to spot any of this. Someone with no training is not even going to know what part of a ship to look at to find the flag or the markings and will spot it only by luck when they're soaring past in a jet fighter. No luck for anyone that day.

    "Why the machine gunning of the lifeboats?"

    Because the Israelis are cutthroat bastards and they thought it was the Egyptians they were shooting at. They'd be happy to gun down Egyptians in lifeboats.

    "Why the jamming of communications?"

    There was no jamming. Neither the Israeli aircraft nor their torpedo boats had any electronic jamming capabilities. The radio was put out of commission by battle damage in all likelihood, which the crew probably mistook for jamming.

    "Why all this cover-up shit afterwards?"

    Sleazy politics to suppress an embarrassing accident and shut everyone up about it.


    The attack was deliberate and brutal because the Israelis thought that it was an Egyptian ship they were hitting. They arrived at the conclusion only after a clown-show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure.

    Here’s one of my previous posts on this topic:

    Those who deny the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate, I invite you to watch this BBC documentary:

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

    The highlight of the video is a quote by Research Officer, Dave Lewis, at 21:01

    “If it was an accident, it was the best planned accident I’ve ever heard of.”

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Asinine statement on his part, as if it was "well planned" the ship would have been sunk with all hands and Israeli involvement would never have been discovered. If it was well planned, those planes would have been carrying weapons like torpedoes or 2000 lb. bombs that could actually have sunk the ship.

    Is it too much to ask for even one person to read the whole essay before they start copy pasting?
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  103. geokat62 says:
    @alexander
    Dear Vendetta,

    I must say those are the lamest, most pathetic excuses for Israeli state sponsored terrorism against the United States, I have ever seen.

    Truly pathetic.

    About as pathetic as the 19 trillion dollar national debt our nation has accrued by engaging in 15 years of wars of aggression based on Neocon fraud.

    But I suppose that has all just been an "accident" too ?

    as in ......The Neocon" Office of Special Plans" arrived at the conclusion that Iraq was an" imminent threat" to the United States....only after a "clown- show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure."......


    I think you may have "flubbed" on this one, Vendetta....

    Perhaps you should just walk away ?

    …clown- show of errors…

    I disagree. There was nothing erroneous about it. They deliberately intended to deceive the public that Iraq constituted a real and imminent threat to the US.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Donnie, you are out of your element!


    Alexander happened to be mocking the argument I offered on the USS Liberty attack.

    In fact he's on your side of it, so you've comittes a little friendly fire error of your own.

    Or perhaps it was a deliberately planned false flag?
    , @alexander
    I think you may have missed my point.Geo.....

    The quote was 'grafted off Vendetta's" excuse" for the terrorist assault on the Liberty....comment 87. last paragraph.

    Check it.

    The gist is that nearly every deliberate attempt to 'deceive" , once it is exposed and blows up in their face, becomes a grand excursion of shameless excuses into 'accidental mishap"...


    You assumed my statement was 'accepting the "clown-show of errors excuse ", not critiquing it.
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  104. Vendetta says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    Vendetta hysterically points out the author does not understand firearms and shootouts.
    He is right.
     
    You don't need to understand the technical details of firearms to know that a young newlywed woman with a newborn baby does not abandon her baby and go off and be a terrorist commando.

    Seriously, WTF is wrong with people who cannot see that?

    Bonnie and Clyde don’t ring any bells? Or you don’t even except 1 in 3.5 billion odds that a woman with a child can turn out to be a murderous psychopath?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Bonnie and Clyde don’t ring any bells?
     
    Sure it does. But I still looked it up to refresh my memory. Actually, my memory didn't fail me that much. Bonnie Parker did not have a newborn baby. Clyde Barrow did not have a stable job in the government. What Bonnie and Clyde did have that this couple in San Bernardino lacks is an extensive criminal record. Bonnie and Clyde were 23 and 24 years old respectively and had criminal records dating back to their teen years. Mostly small robberies but also a dozen bank robberies by the time they were gunned down.

    Bonnie and Clyde also had a clear motive for their crimes. They were both professional criminals and they committed the crimes for monetary gain. It is not clear what you think they have in common with this couple in San Bernardino -- aside from being a man and a woman.


    Or you don’t even except 1 in 3.5 billion odds that a woman with a child can turn out to be a murderous psychopath?
     
    It is very hard to understand your point. I guess what you are saying is that no matter how implausible the government story is, as long as there is the slightest possibility that it is true, you will continue to defend it.

    In other words, so long as it doesn't involve pigs flying or leprechauns or time travel, or something like that, then you'll believe it. Actually, the 9/11 story, which I would infer you believe, does involve violations of the laws of physics. So, come to think of it, even if the government story really is completely impossible, maybe you'll believe it anyway.
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  105. Vendetta says:
    @alexander
    Dear Vendetta,

    I must say those are the lamest, most pathetic excuses for Israeli state sponsored terrorism against the United States, I have ever seen.

    Truly pathetic.

    About as pathetic as the 19 trillion dollar national debt our nation has accrued by engaging in 15 years of wars of aggression based on Neocon fraud.

    But I suppose that has all just been an "accident" too ?

    as in ......The Neocon" Office of Special Plans" arrived at the conclusion that Iraq was an" imminent threat" to the United States....only after a "clown- show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure."......


    I think you may have "flubbed" on this one, Vendetta....

    Perhaps you should just walk away ?

    Dear Alexander,

    Read the article in its entirety and debunk the argument on its merits, or else fuck off because you are clearly out of your element.

    Read More
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  106. Vendetta says:
    @geokat62
    Here's one of my previous posts on this topic:

    Those who deny the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate, I invite you to watch this BBC documentary:

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html

    The highlight of the video is a quote by Research Officer, Dave Lewis, at 21:01

    “If it was an accident, it was the best planned accident I’ve ever heard of.”
     

    Asinine statement on his part, as if it was “well planned” the ship would have been sunk with all hands and Israeli involvement would never have been discovered. If it was well planned, those planes would have been carrying weapons like torpedoes or 2000 lb. bombs that could actually have sunk the ship.

    Is it too much to ask for even one person to read the whole essay before they start copy pasting?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    the ship would have been sunk with all hands and Israeli involvement would never have been discovered.
     
    aren't you also the one who is crying that they fucked up and imploded building seven in such a way that made it obvious that the whole scheme was a false flag ruse?

    doesn't it kill you that your crew are so f'n incompetent?

    and now you have to go out there and try all this damage control because those idiots didn't plan this thing well enough. Huh?

    and then as we all see through your pathetic attempt as lies and damage control, you have to be the one to suffer all the well-earned and well-deserved contempt from the rest of us here

    it must sting, huh?
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  107. Vendetta says:
    @geokat62

    ...clown- show of errors...
     
    I disagree. There was nothing erroneous about it. They deliberately intended to deceive the public that Iraq constituted a real and imminent threat to the US.

    Donnie, you are out of your element!

    Alexander happened to be mocking the argument I offered on the USS Liberty attack.

    In fact he’s on your side of it, so you’ve comittes a little friendly fire error of your own.

    Or perhaps it was a deliberately planned false flag?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Hahahaha...


    Methinks Geo has sunk my" Liberty".....

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  108. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian
    50 years ago. Lot of water under the bridge since then, and a lot of attacks by Islam since, which you and Rurik ignore. Annamarina, you and Kurik are the San Bernardino shooters to me. Soul mates, mutual admiration society. You both hate the U.S. and wish the same failed strategy YOUR President Obama wished for us. YOU, little girrrrrl, are SO transparent. Well, when you aren't submitting to YouPorn.

    You mean that we find the role of Israel detrimental for the US? Yes. Agree. There are power games by people that are not interested in their countrymen but only in money and power, whatever cost for the countrymen.
    But why you have pretended to be a US serviceman while you had not served in the US army?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    I am a decorated Veteran, United States Navy. From 1975-1981 I served 5 years 7 months aboard the flight deck of USS Nimitz, Sixth Fleet, Attack Squadron 35, Carrier Airwing 8. We sailed the Mediterranean, Europe in The North Sea, the Arctic Circle. My tasks at the time of course are none of your business. In December 1979 we departed the Med for the Indian Ocean and from USS Nimitz was launched the ill-fated Iranian Hostage Crisis, April 1980. Look it up.

    Now, I spent many a liberty in Israel and for various reasons, aircraft maintenance, let us say, had many occasions to work with IAF personel in Israel. These are people I know and that you do not. Your middle eastern English and speech patterns betray you, AnnaMaria. You hate Jews. We're not idiots. Israel is not the problem. Iran is the problem. Whatever, No one here is convincing anyone of anything. You hate Jews and that's that. Of course, you'll come back with "Some of my best friends are Jews!". Sure they are.

    In any case, I departed service aboard USS Nimitz a few weeks after a crash on board in May, 1981 which killed 11 and wounded many more. Look it up.

    And where did you serve, Sweetheart?

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  109. @Jonathan Revusky

    Vendetta hysterically points out the author does not understand firearms and shootouts.
    He is right.
     
    You don't need to understand the technical details of firearms to know that a young newlywed woman with a newborn baby does not abandon her baby and go off and be a terrorist commando.

    Seriously, WTF is wrong with people who cannot see that?

    I will never trust the gold box again.

    Read More
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  110. @Jonathan Revusky

    “By golly, just one more fake massacre and the common folk will finally support gun confiscation!”

     

    Well, who said that that is the sole agenda being served by the string of false flag attacks? France already has strict gun control, so that is not the agenda of the people behind these events in Paris. What the events in France have in common with this one is the framing of Arab patsies, as well as the very tenuous claims that there is some link to ISIS, i.e. to Syria.

    In general, if you can foment this fear and loathing of Arabs, and Muslims generally, in the population, it makes all these brutal wars in the Middle East that much more politically possible. If people thought of these people as just ordinary folks like you and me, how much more politically difficult would it be to get all these wars going?

    And yet most of our politicians fall over themselves to defend the average Muslim and to explicitly sell our foreign wars as not anti-Muslim wars. This was as true of Bush and Cheney as it is of Obama and Hillary Clinton. Is the real killer Donald Trump?

    (And there are also truthers for non-Muslim Sandy Hook.)

    Read More
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  111. Ron Unz says:
    @Vendetta
    Stuart Slade's essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.

    One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty's track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay "outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said." This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt's territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were uninterceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS' orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty's skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the "Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters ... and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation." (National Archives) That's glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy's attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel's fears. There was a very real fear inthe Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelies of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that "if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet." The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty's arrival in the area. Thats glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o'clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft ("gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships") 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking "GTR-5," which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. Its worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o'clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn't need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge - which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source - which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you'll find it even if it isn't there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire - a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn't. Another grievious fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: "The coast is being shelled and you - the navy - have done nothing." Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named "Pagoda," to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots - which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic - and reckless. This commander interpreted "don't shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots" as "fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots". Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don't really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don't. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target's speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref - D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 - putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a "Z" or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn't have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck - good or ill - that they didn't shoot up the Israeli FAC - they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty's crew in "stand-down" mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelies were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attackw as deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn't jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The "jamming" was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots - lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots - meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 - 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 - 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning - in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn't seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled "AA" - "identify yourself." Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence - Udi Erell's father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle's order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that "the Israelies must have known that". Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir - but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty's Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard - especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 - he wasn't trying to find out "which ship is this" he was looking for "which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me"

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw "GTR-5" on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as "obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable". By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn't do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at "60-100 miles north of Egypt." If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals - cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak - Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP's son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell's chops. If it was a conspiracy they'd have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a - Documents relating to the Liberty incident - papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn't realize the impact of the matters he's relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 - 67. 3 of Israel's FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle's statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld's sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking - but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events - his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.

     

    Stuart Slade’s essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.

    Well, I don’t have much to contribute on the San Bernardino Massacre, except to note the total disagreement between the explicit eyewitness testimonty of the attacking commando-terrorists being “three tall white men” and the current claims that they were two dark-skinned Pakistanis, one of them a very short woman. Unless Islamicists can split into two and morph their physical appearances, the whole thing seems rather suspicious to me.

    However, regarding the USS Liberty Incident, the historical case is absolutely open-and-shut. I’ve never heard of Stuart Slade, but his essay seems totally worthless “squid ink,” i.e. disinformation. So I might as well take the liberty of reprinting my previous comment from last month:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/was-this-the-911-new-jersey-celebration-trump-remembered/#comment-1240650

    Regarding the Liberty Incident, here’s a nice tidbit that I may or may not have previously mentioned somewhere on this website…

    The NSA naturally has all the radio intercepts between the Israeli pilots and their military commanders, repeatedly ordering them to destroy the U.S.S. Liberty and leave no survivors (I suspect there’s actually a chance that their failure was partly due to their considerable reluctance to follow such seemingly astonishing orders). Since those radio intercepts were presumably swept up along with everything in the entire region, it presumably took them at least a few weeks to separate those out and get them translated from the Hebrew. Since some of the dead on the ship were NSA people, I’d assume the NSA people back home were *quite* unhappy about what they discovered, but there wasn’t much that they or their later successors could do once LBJ and their other political masters had made their decision to totally suppress and whitewash the incident.

    However, one of my old friends was Bill Odom, the three-star general who ran the NSA for Reagan, and Bill was a sharp fellow. The story I heard is that he arranged for those particular Israeli radio intercepts to be used each year in the official NSA training process given to all entering officers, in which they are given real-life examples demonstrating the effectiveness of NSA technology and techniques. I don’t know the exact details, but it wouldn’t surprise me if hundreds or even thousands of mid- or high-ranking NSA officials there days are therefore certainly aware of the exact details of the Liberty Incident, although it probably remains unknown to 99.5% of the American public.

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    What do you think the Israeli motive was? The Liberty attack fails the usual conspiracists' question of "cui bono?" Following the usual line of logic would lead to people claiming that it was a false flag attack launched by the Egyptians to destroy the US-Israeli alliance. Why would the Israelis take such an insane gamble with their country's greatest strategic asset? This took placing during the Six-Day War; it wasn't 1973 where they were actually desperate and panicking. Why do something so stupid?

    There's no question that the political aftermath of this incident was dirty politics and that the sailors were treated disgracefully. But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.
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  112. alexander says:
    @geokat62

    ...clown- show of errors...
     
    I disagree. There was nothing erroneous about it. They deliberately intended to deceive the public that Iraq constituted a real and imminent threat to the US.

    I think you may have missed my point.Geo…..

    The quote was ‘grafted off Vendetta’s” excuse” for the terrorist assault on the Liberty….comment 87. last paragraph.

    Check it.

    The gist is that nearly every deliberate attempt to ‘deceive” , once it is exposed and blows up in their face, becomes a grand excursion of shameless excuses into ‘accidental mishap”…

    You assumed my statement was ‘accepting the “clown-show of errors excuse “, not critiquing it.

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    mea culpa
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  113. geokat62 says:

    Donnie, you are out of your element!

    Forgive me. I didn’t realize that you’ve clocked at an IQ above +7σ.

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  114. alexander says:
    @Vendetta
    Donnie, you are out of your element!


    Alexander happened to be mocking the argument I offered on the USS Liberty attack.

    In fact he's on your side of it, so you've comittes a little friendly fire error of your own.

    Or perhaps it was a deliberately planned false flag?

    Hahahaha…

    Methinks Geo has sunk my” Liberty”…..

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  115. geokat62 says:
    @alexander
    I think you may have missed my point.Geo.....

    The quote was 'grafted off Vendetta's" excuse" for the terrorist assault on the Liberty....comment 87. last paragraph.

    Check it.

    The gist is that nearly every deliberate attempt to 'deceive" , once it is exposed and blows up in their face, becomes a grand excursion of shameless excuses into 'accidental mishap"...


    You assumed my statement was 'accepting the "clown-show of errors excuse ", not critiquing it.

    mea culpa

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    • Replies: @alexander
    No worries.
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  116. bomag says:
    @Anonymous
    They were Pakistani i.e. South Asian, not Middle Eastern. South Asians tend to be darker than Middle Easterners, and their photographs reveal them to be 2 darkly complexioned South Asians who would not be confused for 3 tall athletic white men.

    Most people, when they say “white”, mean “not black”. Unless someone is distinctly African American, the default is to see them as white.

    The number discrepancy is interesting, but if a conspiracy is so complete that it has totally co-opted local and fed law enforcement, they could easily have piled up the proper number of bullet riddled bodies to allay such suspicions; and if the conspirators are so secret and all powerful that they let this number discrepancy stand just to mock us, why even run the event in the first place? The conspirators can evidently get and do whatever they want, so these events must just be for their entertainment.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Most people, when they say “white”, mean “not black”. Unless someone is distinctly African American, the default is to see them as white."

    There is a scene in the film Street Kings where a gang beats up Keanu Reeves in the parking lot and they refer to him as a White boy while attacking him. Keanu is Mixed Race in real life.

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  117. Vendetta says:
    @Ron Unz

    Stuart Slade’s essay on the USS Liberty offers the explanation I subscribe to. Long story short, the attack was an accident that took place to gross incompetence on the part of the Israelis.
     
    Well, I don't have much to contribute on the San Bernardino Massacre, except to note the total disagreement between the explicit eyewitness testimonty of the attacking commando-terrorists being "three tall white men" and the current claims that they were two dark-skinned Pakistanis, one of them a very short woman. Unless Islamicists can split into two and morph their physical appearances, the whole thing seems rather suspicious to me.

    However, regarding the USS Liberty Incident, the historical case is absolutely open-and-shut. I've never heard of Stuart Slade, but his essay seems totally worthless "squid ink," i.e. disinformation. So I might as well take the liberty of reprinting my previous comment from last month:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/was-this-the-911-new-jersey-celebration-trump-remembered/#comment-1240650

    Regarding the Liberty Incident, here’s a nice tidbit that I may or may not have previously mentioned somewhere on this website…

    The NSA naturally has all the radio intercepts between the Israeli pilots and their military commanders, repeatedly ordering them to destroy the U.S.S. Liberty and leave no survivors (I suspect there’s actually a chance that their failure was partly due to their considerable reluctance to follow such seemingly astonishing orders). Since those radio intercepts were presumably swept up along with everything in the entire region, it presumably took them at least a few weeks to separate those out and get them translated from the Hebrew. Since some of the dead on the ship were NSA people, I’d assume the NSA people back home were *quite* unhappy about what they discovered, but there wasn’t much that they or their later successors could do once LBJ and their other political masters had made their decision to totally suppress and whitewash the incident.

    However, one of my old friends was Bill Odom, the three-star general who ran the NSA for Reagan, and Bill was a sharp fellow. The story I heard is that he arranged for those particular Israeli radio intercepts to be used each year in the official NSA training process given to all entering officers, in which they are given real-life examples demonstrating the effectiveness of NSA technology and techniques. I don’t know the exact details, but it wouldn’t surprise me if hundreds or even thousands of mid- or high-ranking NSA officials there days are therefore certainly aware of the exact details of the Liberty Incident, although it probably remains unknown to 99.5% of the American public.

    What do you think the Israeli motive was? The Liberty attack fails the usual conspiracists’ question of “cui bono?” Following the usual line of logic would lead to people claiming that it was a false flag attack launched by the Egyptians to destroy the US-Israeli alliance. Why would the Israelis take such an insane gamble with their country’s greatest strategic asset? This took placing during the Six-Day War; it wasn’t 1973 where they were actually desperate and panicking. Why do something so stupid?

    There’s no question that the political aftermath of this incident was dirty politics and that the sailors were treated disgracefully. But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.
     
    God you are dumb

    they do the false flags because they are notorious cowards and want others to fight their wars for them!

    really?

    You're that clueless?

    why did they do the Lavon affair, idiot?

    why did they do 911?

    let me help you with this..

    because they are cowards,

    notorious cowards

    and because it historically has been very, very easy to use corrupt politicians and lies to get Americans to fight their wars for them. OK?

    they're sniveling little cockroaches and assassins who plot in the dark

    but they're also too stupid to do it right, so they have to use their corrupt politicians and Jewish owned media and useless idiots like yourself to run cover for them. But people are catching on.
    , @Ron Unz

    What do you think the Israeli motive was? The Liberty attack fails the usual conspiracists’ question of “cui bono?”...But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.
     
    Sure, that's a very reasonable question, and exactly why I'd originally been very doubtful it was a deliberate attack until I learned about the explicit NSA intercepts and all the other massive evidence. Over the last couple of decades there have been a scattering of major articles published in the NYT and other MSM outlets suggesting particular explanations, all of them somewhat reasonable but none of them especially compelling, so I honestly can't say the reason. However, here's my own speculative suggestion, which differs a bit from all of them.

    Supposedly LBJ had sent the Liberty, America's most advanced intelligence ship, to the area to keep an eye on things and make sure the Israelis abided by the military restrictions he'd given them for their planned attack, basically he wanted to show them who was boss. So they decided to sink the American naval ship and leave no survivors in order to show him who was *really* boss, and the outcome proved that they were correct...
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  118. Rurik says:
    @Vendetta
    All right, Rurik the Raghead, since Slade's essay might be a little above your reading comprehension level, I'll try to make things real simple for you:

    "Many American intelligence servicemen have come forward saying they overheard the Israelis identifying the ship as American."

    That's because it was initially identified as American. Then when their staff officers changed shifts, the Israelis cleared it off their tracking board, assuming it must have kept on going and left the area without bothering to call through and confirm it.

    That happened because Israeli staff officers were arrogant, sloppy, and lazy.

    The flag was clearly visible, the hull markings were visible, the ship was supposedly "mistaken" for one half its size

    The pilots who arrived at the scene had no training in naval operations or ship recognition and failed to spot any of this. Someone with no training is not even going to know what part of a ship to look at to find the flag or the markings and will spot it only by luck when they're soaring past in a jet fighter. No luck for anyone that day.

    "Why the machine gunning of the lifeboats?"

    Because the Israelis are cutthroat bastards and they thought it was the Egyptians they were shooting at. They'd be happy to gun down Egyptians in lifeboats.

    "Why the jamming of communications?"

    There was no jamming. Neither the Israeli aircraft nor their torpedo boats had any electronic jamming capabilities. The radio was put out of commission by battle damage in all likelihood, which the crew probably mistook for jamming.

    "Why all this cover-up shit afterwards?"

    Sleazy politics to suppress an embarrassing accident and shut everyone up about it.


    The attack was deliberate and brutal because the Israelis thought that it was an Egyptian ship they were hitting. They arrived at the conclusion only after a clown-show of errors brought about by their own stupidity, unwarranted assumptions, and cavalier attitude towards routine and procedure.

    All right, Rurik the Raghead,

    poor Vendetta doesn’t like getting bitch slapped in public. Sometime when it’s necessary to bitch slap a fool in public its for their own good. You’re trying to do them a favor and help them to stop making an ass of themselves. But being a fool, they sometimes still don’t learn.

    That’s because it was initially identified as American. Then when their staff officers changed shifts, the Israelis cleared it off their tracking board, assuming it must have kept on going and left the area without bothering to call through and confirm it

    what are you doing here?

    this is site is for grown ups and people with a shred of cognitive tools. Even most of the dis-info trolls at least make an effort. This is childish. Any adolescent boy could distinguish between an old Egyptian rust bucket and a state of the art US Navy intelligence ship flying the flag.

    so the question becomes.. are you that fucking stupid? Or are you just some lazy jerkoff who’s bored and gets his kicks by being an apologist for rotten, cowardly, murderous scum who treacherously attacked a friendly vessel full of men who considered Israel a friend. A cowardly and dishonorable act of war.

    Every single cowardly rat-bastard who was responsible for that crime should have been immediately (and none too gently) handed over to US authorities with the shame and humiliation that would be appropriate for a country who’s enjoyed so much benevolence and good will from the American people and who returned that largess and good will by ambushing our sailors and trying to murder them all to the last man- these scum need to be brought to these shores and tried and hanged by the neck until their dancing shoes stopped kicking.

    That’s what should have happened. And that’s what needs to happen now sooner than later. As long as the possibility exists that some of those cockroaches are hiding in the crevices of that “shitty little country”, it is an abomination to the memory of those murdered sailors. And a stain on our military’s honor.

    But those cowards and murderers are not coming here, unless it’s to piss on those sailors graves and mockingly laugh in the face of the survivors.

    And the reason for that is because of people like you. People who would hold those Israeli’s cocks while they’re pissing on those graves. And if some of the piss gets on your hands, well it’s very, very clear to all what you would be willing to do to show your craven obeisance to men who’ve slaughtered your fellow country men like they were so many useless cows, huh?

    the rest of your idiotic blather isn’t even worth responding to

    The pilots who arrived at the scene had no training in naval operations or ship recognition

    again, WTF are you doing here?

    but we all know, don’t we

    you’re here to spread lies and figuratively hold the cocks of the men who murdered our sailors.

    you’re here to take a massive dump on the memory of the men who lost their lives on that day

    war is war. Men (and women) lose their lives in war. It’s part of it. But one thing that you don’t do is stab your comrade in the back. One thing about war is you want to know that the other men in the foxhole with you are at least on your side. It’s enough that the enemy is trying to kill you. You don’t need to be looking at your fellow soldiers and wondering if the next bullet flying your way will be coming from them if you turn your back.

    But that is the Israeli way. Cowards and treacherous lying assassins who shoot when your back is turned, because they want to blame the murder on someone else, and get others to do their fighting for them. Because they’re cowards. Just like with 911. Cowards. Plotting and scheming and looking at you in the eye while their thinking of how to back-stab you without getting caught. Well.. bitch, this time they got caught. Red handed. That’s why they had to cough up some of those precious shekels didn’t they?

    Anyways keep posting. You idiots are useful as foils to bounce the truth off of and see it reverberate into the ether. When enough of it is in the air, perhaps they’ll think twice before they plan their next cowardly atrocity.

    The things I’m saying need to be said. Men like Pollard and those scum who ordered the attack on the Liberty, (and most of all the traitorous bitches and two bit imbeciles who try to make excuses for them) need to be held to account.

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    • Agree: Mark Green
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Dear Rurik the Cuckspiracist,

    Is this site for grownups, or people who like to talk about Israeli cocks?

    Let's see what someone with a "cursory shred of cognitive tools" could have done. He could have taken a look at a certain commenter's history:

    Vendetta says:
    November 18, 2015 at 12:21 am GMT
    I just want my country out of this mess for good. Dump Israel, cut the welfare check, and don’t look back.
     

    Vendetta says:
    November 15, 2015 at 5:59 pm GMT
    Israel has been too afraid to even fight Hezbollah a second time. They were too afraid to launch air strikes against Iran on their own.

    No way they’re starting a war with Russia. They will seize any little opportunities they can take advantage of, but being evil does not necessarily make you insane.

    They’ve always been very cold, rational actors who’ve placed self-preservation above all else. Know thy enemy.
     

    Vendetta says:
    May 22, 2015 at 3:29 pm GMT
    I say Israel is the biggest welfare queen on our entitlements budget and we should stop sending them checks. I say our commander-in-chief should tell the Israelis to turn around and have their planes shot down if Bibi ever tries launching a strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities on his own. I say the West Bank settlements should be vacated and turned over to the Palestinians as compensation. I say Israel is a strategic liability, not an asset.
     
    You are a clown, and you need to stop trying to include other people in your profane cuckoldry fantasies. You are still an illiterate who can't take ten minutes to read an opposing argument before offering response to it. And you apparently cannot even be shamed into doing so by having it offered to you an idiot's level. Did you think it sounded idiotic when I put it to you that way? That's because I took you for an idiot after you clearly responded without reading the first time. Go back and read the original if you would like to prove that you're a grown-up who belongs on this site, and take your Israeli cock fantasies with you.
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  119. alexander says:
    @geokat62
    mea culpa

    No worries.

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  120. Rurik says:
    @L.K
    Hey Rurik,

    You know, one thing that I've noticed looking into 9-11, is that there are all these disinfo agents, opportunists and kooks, u know, people like Judy Wood, Alex jones, gordon duff, etc, who attach themselves to the 9-11 Truth movement and, by virtue of all the crazy nonsense they push, end up discrediting all the hard work done by hundreds of serious researchers.
    It is intentional and It pisses me off.

    Take care.

    Hey LK,

    yes, there is a cacophony surrounding these acts of war and perfidious treachery because the men who committed those crimes are still entrenched in power. And there’s a lot of hangers-on; GOP and DNC establishment, msm, assorted Zionists and worried Jews, the bovine cud-chewers and assorted sheep who’d rather die than think.

    And I have visited sites like Rense where they talk about aliens and I just wince.

    Gordon Duff has admitted publically that he lies when it’s prudent, so we have to take things where we can find them.

    What no one can change is the videos of building seven coming down. Any child can see that a building doesn’t fall like that on its own. In fact I think especially child, because too many adults have killed off their brains by a lifetime of fear and loathing of saying the obvious if it’s frowned upon. It’s no accident that it was a boy that noticed that the emperor had no clothes. Adults have learned to shut out uncomfortable truths, no matter how obvious. They’ve learned how to become skilled liars when it might benefit them to do so. They’ve learned how to ‘see’ things that aren’t there, if it pays to ‘see’ them. And so we get a lot of the manure being spread around to stink up a discussion and obfuscate the truth. But you can’t obfuscate what’s obvious, at least to young and open minds still capable of thinking and reasoning without filters.

    It is those minds we are speaking to, and that eventual army of truthers who will rain down justice upon this earth.

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  121. Rurik says:
    @Vendetta
    Asinine statement on his part, as if it was "well planned" the ship would have been sunk with all hands and Israeli involvement would never have been discovered. If it was well planned, those planes would have been carrying weapons like torpedoes or 2000 lb. bombs that could actually have sunk the ship.

    Is it too much to ask for even one person to read the whole essay before they start copy pasting?

    the ship would have been sunk with all hands and Israeli involvement would never have been discovered.

    aren’t you also the one who is crying that they fucked up and imploded building seven in such a way that made it obvious that the whole scheme was a false flag ruse?

    doesn’t it kill you that your crew are so f’n incompetent?

    and now you have to go out there and try all this damage control because those idiots didn’t plan this thing well enough. Huh?

    and then as we all see through your pathetic attempt as lies and damage control, you have to be the one to suffer all the well-earned and well-deserved contempt from the rest of us here

    it must sting, huh?

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  122. @Vendetta
    Bonnie and Clyde don't ring any bells? Or you don't even except 1 in 3.5 billion odds that a woman with a child can turn out to be a murderous psychopath?

    Bonnie and Clyde don’t ring any bells?

    Sure it does. But I still looked it up to refresh my memory. Actually, my memory didn’t fail me that much. Bonnie Parker did not have a newborn baby. Clyde Barrow did not have a stable job in the government. What Bonnie and Clyde did have that this couple in San Bernardino lacks is an extensive criminal record. Bonnie and Clyde were 23 and 24 years old respectively and had criminal records dating back to their teen years. Mostly small robberies but also a dozen bank robberies by the time they were gunned down.

    Bonnie and Clyde also had a clear motive for their crimes. They were both professional criminals and they committed the crimes for monetary gain. It is not clear what you think they have in common with this couple in San Bernardino — aside from being a man and a woman.

    Or you don’t even except 1 in 3.5 billion odds that a woman with a child can turn out to be a murderous psychopath?

    It is very hard to understand your point. I guess what you are saying is that no matter how implausible the government story is, as long as there is the slightest possibility that it is true, you will continue to defend it.

    In other words, so long as it doesn’t involve pigs flying or leprechauns or time travel, or something like that, then you’ll believe it. Actually, the 9/11 story, which I would infer you believe, does involve violations of the laws of physics. So, come to think of it, even if the government story really is completely impossible, maybe you’ll believe it anyway.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    My point is, this simply is not all that implausible. There are hundreds of mothers who have actually murdered their own children, and there are hundreds of Muslim women who've taken part in suicide bombings in the Middle East, Russia, and Nigeria. How exactly do you place the idea of of this woman taking part in a murder spree into the realm of flying pigs and leprechauns?

    And an entire book could be (and probably has been) filled with accounts of eyewitness testimony that were completely at odds with events that have taken place in dozens and dozens of cases. Occam's Razor points to the eyewitnesses who say "three white men" simply having been mistaken in what they saw, rather than some elaborate cover-up and frame-job having taken place.

    If you were the agent in charge of framing some innocent Muslim suspect, why would you choose this mother of a newborn, if it was so unbelievable?

    As for the Twin Towers, I'm not convinced that the laws of physics were violated, as there are thousands of engineers and experts who have said otherwise. What frustrates me most of all is that none of that whole argument really matters.

    I don't need to prove that they were the ones who masterminded 9/11 to despise Israel and the neocons, or to recognize what a catastrophe the war on Iraq was. I already do so, for various reasons that are not subject to interminable debates about angels dancing on pinheads. I already believe the U.S. needs to dump Israel and that the neocons belong in a gulag in Alaska.

    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me, the neocons' opposition crawling up its own collective ass and making fools of themselves in the eyes of the public instead of actually achieving anything productive against them.
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  123. Rurik says:
    @Vendetta
    What do you think the Israeli motive was? The Liberty attack fails the usual conspiracists' question of "cui bono?" Following the usual line of logic would lead to people claiming that it was a false flag attack launched by the Egyptians to destroy the US-Israeli alliance. Why would the Israelis take such an insane gamble with their country's greatest strategic asset? This took placing during the Six-Day War; it wasn't 1973 where they were actually desperate and panicking. Why do something so stupid?

    There's no question that the political aftermath of this incident was dirty politics and that the sailors were treated disgracefully. But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.

    But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.

    God you are dumb

    they do the false flags because they are notorious cowards and want others to fight their wars for them!

    really?

    You’re that clueless?

    why did they do the Lavon affair, idiot?

    why did they do 911?

    let me help you with this..

    because they are cowards,

    notorious cowards

    and because it historically has been very, very easy to use corrupt politicians and lies to get Americans to fight their wars for them. OK?

    they’re sniveling little cockroaches and assassins who plot in the dark

    but they’re also too stupid to do it right, so they have to use their corrupt politicians and Jewish owned media and useless idiots like yourself to run cover for them. But people are catching on.

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  124. Rurik says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    50 years ago.
     
    It's the most notorious example, but the modus operandi of those people has not changed meanwhile.

    The JFK assassination was 50 years ago too. But the modus operandi on these Deep State operations has not changed too much. There are typically patsies who get framed. Then it was a white boy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Lot of water under the bridge since then, and a lot of attacks by Islam
     
    Those of us who have a clue about these issues know that the Muslims being framed are patsies, like the aforementioned Oswald.

    But there is the point that, even if they were Muslims, how does that constitute attacks by Islam? If some guy named John Smith goes and shoots some people, does anybody ever say that is an attack by Christianity? In fact, nobody will even mention whether that person was a Catholic or a Lutheran or what, because it's not considered relevant.

    So all this stuff about how we are being "attacked by Islam", this is just revealing yourself as a weak-minded fool who cannot think for himself, and thus, accepts any absurd framing of any issue that they put out there.

    Hey JR,

    ‘Jim Christian’ is a IDF type snake.

    but even when I was a child I liked to play with snakes. Sometimes I’d grab one and scare my brother with it (he was afraid of snakes). Or just sort of let them slither in my hand, scared and trying to get away. I never really hurt them, but I know they didn’t like ‘playing’ with me.

    Anyways he’s as far from being a Christen as you can get and he goes around with that moniker as a joke he thinks he playing while he belches anti-Muslim hysterics, pretending that anyone who doesn’t consider all Muslims as terrorists are shitlibs with mush for brains. The only thing he has going for him is that shitlibs do have mush for brains, and do want to import all Muslims (and everyone else) into America and everywhere else. So he uses that obvious insanity to impugn all Muslims as head-slicers because a few of them are.

    Like I said, he’s a snake. But unlike peoples phobias and fears, snakes can be fun to play with.

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  125. Vendetta says:
    @Rurik

    All right, Rurik the Raghead,
     
    poor Vendetta doesn't like getting bitch slapped in public. Sometime when it's necessary to bitch slap a fool in public its for their own good. You're trying to do them a favor and help them to stop making an ass of themselves. But being a fool, they sometimes still don't learn.

    That’s because it was initially identified as American. Then when their staff officers changed shifts, the Israelis cleared it off their tracking board, assuming it must have kept on going and left the area without bothering to call through and confirm it
     
    what are you doing here?

    this is site is for grown ups and people with a shred of cognitive tools. Even most of the dis-info trolls at least make an effort. This is childish. Any adolescent boy could distinguish between an old Egyptian rust bucket and a state of the art US Navy intelligence ship flying the flag.

    so the question becomes.. are you that fucking stupid? Or are you just some lazy jerkoff who's bored and gets his kicks by being an apologist for rotten, cowardly, murderous scum who treacherously attacked a friendly vessel full of men who considered Israel a friend. A cowardly and dishonorable act of war.

    Every single cowardly rat-bastard who was responsible for that crime should have been immediately (and none too gently) handed over to US authorities with the shame and humiliation that would be appropriate for a country who's enjoyed so much benevolence and good will from the American people and who returned that largess and good will by ambushing our sailors and trying to murder them all to the last man- these scum need to be brought to these shores and tried and hanged by the neck until their dancing shoes stopped kicking.

    That's what should have happened. And that's what needs to happen now sooner than later. As long as the possibility exists that some of those cockroaches are hiding in the crevices of that "shitty little country", it is an abomination to the memory of those murdered sailors. And a stain on our military's honor.

    But those cowards and murderers are not coming here, unless it's to piss on those sailors graves and mockingly laugh in the face of the survivors.

    And the reason for that is because of people like you. People who would hold those Israeli's cocks while they're pissing on those graves. And if some of the piss gets on your hands, well it's very, very clear to all what you would be willing to do to show your craven obeisance to men who've slaughtered your fellow country men like they were so many useless cows, huh?

    the rest of your idiotic blather isn't even worth responding to

    The pilots who arrived at the scene had no training in naval operations or ship recognition
     
    again, WTF are you doing here?

    but we all know, don't we

    you're here to spread lies and figuratively hold the cocks of the men who murdered our sailors.

    you're here to take a massive dump on the memory of the men who lost their lives on that day

    war is war. Men (and women) lose their lives in war. It's part of it. But one thing that you don't do is stab your comrade in the back. One thing about war is you want to know that the other men in the foxhole with you are at least on your side. It's enough that the enemy is trying to kill you. You don't need to be looking at your fellow soldiers and wondering if the next bullet flying your way will be coming from them if you turn your back.

    But that is the Israeli way. Cowards and treacherous lying assassins who shoot when your back is turned, because they want to blame the murder on someone else, and get others to do their fighting for them. Because they're cowards. Just like with 911. Cowards. Plotting and scheming and looking at you in the eye while their thinking of how to back-stab you without getting caught. Well.. bitch, this time they got caught. Red handed. That's why they had to cough up some of those precious shekels didn't they?

    Anyways keep posting. You idiots are useful as foils to bounce the truth off of and see it reverberate into the ether. When enough of it is in the air, perhaps they'll think twice before they plan their next cowardly atrocity.

    The things I'm saying need to be said. Men like Pollard and those scum who ordered the attack on the Liberty, (and most of all the traitorous bitches and two bit imbeciles who try to make excuses for them) need to be held to account.

    Dear Rurik the Cuckspiracist,

    Is this site for grownups, or people who like to talk about Israeli cocks?

    Let’s see what someone with a “cursory shred of cognitive tools” could have done. He could have taken a look at a certain commenter’s history:

    Vendetta says:
    November 18, 2015 at 12:21 am GMT
    I just want my country out of this mess for good. Dump Israel, cut the welfare check, and don’t look back.

    Vendetta says:
    November 15, 2015 at 5:59 pm GMT
    Israel has been too afraid to even fight Hezbollah a second time. They were too afraid to launch air strikes against Iran on their own.

    No way they’re starting a war with Russia. They will seize any little opportunities they can take advantage of, but being evil does not necessarily make you insane.

    They’ve always been very cold, rational actors who’ve placed self-preservation above all else. Know thy enemy.

    Vendetta says:
    May 22, 2015 at 3:29 pm GMT
    I say Israel is the biggest welfare queen on our entitlements budget and we should stop sending them checks. I say our commander-in-chief should tell the Israelis to turn around and have their planes shot down if Bibi ever tries launching a strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities on his own. I say the West Bank settlements should be vacated and turned over to the Palestinians as compensation. I say Israel is a strategic liability, not an asset.

    You are a clown, and you need to stop trying to include other people in your profane cuckoldry fantasies. You are still an illiterate who can’t take ten minutes to read an opposing argument before offering response to it. And you apparently cannot even be shamed into doing so by having it offered to you an idiot’s level. Did you think it sounded idiotic when I put it to you that way? That’s because I took you for an idiot after you clearly responded without reading the first time. Go back and read the original if you would like to prove that you’re a grown-up who belongs on this site, and take your Israeli cock fantasies with you.

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  126. Vendetta says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    Bonnie and Clyde don’t ring any bells?
     
    Sure it does. But I still looked it up to refresh my memory. Actually, my memory didn't fail me that much. Bonnie Parker did not have a newborn baby. Clyde Barrow did not have a stable job in the government. What Bonnie and Clyde did have that this couple in San Bernardino lacks is an extensive criminal record. Bonnie and Clyde were 23 and 24 years old respectively and had criminal records dating back to their teen years. Mostly small robberies but also a dozen bank robberies by the time they were gunned down.

    Bonnie and Clyde also had a clear motive for their crimes. They were both professional criminals and they committed the crimes for monetary gain. It is not clear what you think they have in common with this couple in San Bernardino -- aside from being a man and a woman.


    Or you don’t even except 1 in 3.5 billion odds that a woman with a child can turn out to be a murderous psychopath?
     
    It is very hard to understand your point. I guess what you are saying is that no matter how implausible the government story is, as long as there is the slightest possibility that it is true, you will continue to defend it.

    In other words, so long as it doesn't involve pigs flying or leprechauns or time travel, or something like that, then you'll believe it. Actually, the 9/11 story, which I would infer you believe, does involve violations of the laws of physics. So, come to think of it, even if the government story really is completely impossible, maybe you'll believe it anyway.

    My point is, this simply is not all that implausible. There are hundreds of mothers who have actually murdered their own children, and there are hundreds of Muslim women who’ve taken part in suicide bombings in the Middle East, Russia, and Nigeria. How exactly do you place the idea of of this woman taking part in a murder spree into the realm of flying pigs and leprechauns?

    And an entire book could be (and probably has been) filled with accounts of eyewitness testimony that were completely at odds with events that have taken place in dozens and dozens of cases. Occam’s Razor points to the eyewitnesses who say “three white men” simply having been mistaken in what they saw, rather than some elaborate cover-up and frame-job having taken place.

    If you were the agent in charge of framing some innocent Muslim suspect, why would you choose this mother of a newborn, if it was so unbelievable?

    As for the Twin Towers, I’m not convinced that the laws of physics were violated, as there are thousands of engineers and experts who have said otherwise. What frustrates me most of all is that none of that whole argument really matters.

    I don’t need to prove that they were the ones who masterminded 9/11 to despise Israel and the neocons, or to recognize what a catastrophe the war on Iraq was. I already do so, for various reasons that are not subject to interminable debates about angels dancing on pinheads. I already believe the U.S. needs to dump Israel and that the neocons belong in a gulag in Alaska.

    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me, the neocons’ opposition crawling up its own collective ass and making fools of themselves in the eyes of the public instead of actually achieving anything productive against them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Vendetta,

    I think it may be important to spill a little ink on the" eyewitness testimony".....

    .You have one eyewitness who saw three large muscular "white" males "going in"....

    and you have another eyewitness who saw three large white males "coming out".

    There is a chance" one" witness could be mistaken....but both?

    It would help (your argument) if there were a raft of "other" eyewitnesses who were there,who said they saw the (now dead) Muslim couple, at the scene,or firing shots,or escaping...or something.

    It would help if there were eyewitnesses who said they heard a woman's voice, or saw the couple arguing or were unsure of what they saw altogether...

    But I have not heard anything like that.

    Your argument is contingent on your" belief" the eyewitnesses "misread" what they saw.

    But you don't "know" that to be true, Vendetta.

    What happens if the eyewitnesses were exactly accurate in what they witnessed ?

    What happens then?
    , @Jonathan Revusky

    If you were the agent in charge of framing some innocent Muslim suspect, why would you choose this mother of a newborn, if it was so unbelievable?
     
    Oh, I see, a variant on the old Morton's fork argument. The implausibility of the government's story is actually proof that it is true, because if the government was going to lie, they would make up a more plausible story.

    So basically, if the government's story is plausible, you believe it, and if it is implausible, then you believe it, because the government would make up a better story. (And under what conditions do you ever disbelieve the government narrative then?)

    As for the Twin Towers, I’m not convinced that the laws of physics were violated, as there are thousands of engineers and experts who have said otherwise.
     
    You mean, that don't work for NIST or some other organ of the State? I don't think so.

    It's an open secret that building 7 was a controlled demolition. There is no other way to get a steel framed skyscraper to fall straight down like that. The claim that such a symmetrical straight down collapse occurred from randomly spreading office fires defies basic natural laws, yes.

    What frustrates me most of all is that none of that whole argument really matters.
     
    TRANSLATION of shill-speak: It really matters. It's central.

    I already believe the U.S. needs to dump Israel and that the neocons belong in a gulag in Alaska.
     
    You're a shill. You're posing as someone who is anti-Israel in order to try to present yourself as someone credible here. No dice. People surely can see through this. (Well, I can only speak for myself. It's obvious.) If you were genuinely anti-Israel, you wouldn't be trying to spread this nonsense that the U.S.S. Liberty attack was some sort of "honest mistake".

    Not only are you not anti-Israel, you probably work for them and are writing this from somewhere in or around Tel Aviv.


    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me,
     
    TRANSLATION: I work for the people who did 9/11 and am blowing smoke here on their behalf.


    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me, the neocons’ opposition crawling up its own collective ass and making fools of themselves in the eyes of the public instead of actually achieving anything productive against them.
     
    Oh, "achieving anything productive". This must be one of the current Hasbara talking points....

    Look, this here is a discussion forum. All you can do on a discussion forum is have a discussion. If the result of a discussion is to expose the truth, to help people figure out the truth, then it is productive because that is all that a discussion forum can produce.

    When you say that the topic is "unproductive" all that really means is that you (actually your masters) do not want this topic discussed. That alone is enough to suggest that the topic is well worth discussing!
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  127. Rurik says:

    your profane cuckoldry fantasies.

    “cuckholdry” ?

    I said you sound like the kind of person who would hold a murderers’ dick while he’s pissing on the grave of his murdered American sailor victims. What has that to do with “cuckholdry”?

    don’t ask me to read bullshit when I can see if for bullshit a mile away

    [MORE]

    that atrocity happened in 1967. I’ve read all I need to about the details and all the lies and obfuscations that the Israelis could muster

    anyone who still claims that they just couldn’t distinguish it from an old Egyptian horse boat is full of shit. OK?

    just like the imbeciles who claim building seven fell down because of an office fire or two. Either they’re lying, or they’re so breathtakingly stupid that it actually hurts to contemplate it.

    I have tried to learn to be more lenient to those who really are that, um .. challenged.

    I have no patience for the liars or shills, but for those who are children of a lesser god, I’ve found that some leeway is in order

    it is very hard for me to listen to someone watch a video of building seven falling down and say ‘it could have just sort of fallen down, you know. There was some damage after all’

    my mind races, and I’m struck by incredulity. It hits me like a bus. There just is no way anyone can be that dumb!

    But I have to learned to be less critical. There really are people who really are that .. uninformed.

    it’s very hard for me to accept, but then there’s people who believe that Saddam did 911

    there’s people who believe what ever you tell them

    it just causes me cognitive dissonance to try to reconcile my mind to the fact that those people really are out there, but they are. And they are legion.

    so my challenge is to distinguish between those who are liars and those who are, just um .. credulous

    if you’re in the latter, then don’t copy/paste some lengthy bullshit and tell others to read it

    apparently the Mr. Unz suffered through it, and was not impressed

    he’s got more patience with bullshit than I do.

    if you have something compelling to offer in the way of insights of rational observation, then by all means! Please do edify us all!

    otherwise, take your own advise and fuck off

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Cuckoldry, not "cuckholdry." This is a country where we speak English.
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  128. @annamaria
    You mean that we find the role of Israel detrimental for the US? Yes. Agree. There are power games by people that are not interested in their countrymen but only in money and power, whatever cost for the countrymen.
    But why you have pretended to be a US serviceman while you had not served in the US army?

    I am a decorated Veteran, United States Navy. From 1975-1981 I served 5 years 7 months aboard the flight deck of USS Nimitz, Sixth Fleet, Attack Squadron 35, Carrier Airwing 8. We sailed the Mediterranean, Europe in The North Sea, the Arctic Circle. My tasks at the time of course are none of your business. In December 1979 we departed the Med for the Indian Ocean and from USS Nimitz was launched the ill-fated Iranian Hostage Crisis, April 1980. Look it up.

    Now, I spent many a liberty in Israel and for various reasons, aircraft maintenance, let us say, had many occasions to work with IAF personel in Israel. These are people I know and that you do not. Your middle eastern English and speech patterns betray you, AnnaMaria. You hate Jews. We’re not idiots. Israel is not the problem. Iran is the problem. Whatever, No one here is convincing anyone of anything. You hate Jews and that’s that. Of course, you’ll come back with “Some of my best friends are Jews!”. Sure they are.

    In any case, I departed service aboard USS Nimitz a few weeks after a crash on board in May, 1981 which killed 11 and wounded many more. Look it up.

    And where did you serve, Sweetheart?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    I am a decorated Veteran, United States Navy. From 1975-1981 I served 5 years 7 months aboard the flight deck of USS Nimitz, Sixth Fleet, Attack Squadron 35, Carrier Airwing 8. We sailed the Mediterranean, Europe in The North Sea, the Arctic Circle.(blah blah blah blah snip blah blah)
     
    Even if all of that were true (which I seriously doubt).... dude, so f***ing what!!?? What does it have to do with anything?

    Oh, c'mon. You're a pimple faced kid, most likely sitting in some cubicle in some nondescript office building in a suburb of Tel Aviv. At the time of the above incidents, you were not even born. (Granted, I have no proof of this conjecture, but it seems far more likely than what you are claiming. And, in any case, it doesn't matter anyway.... who cares anyway?)
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  129. Rurik says:

    What frustrates me most of all is that none of that whole argument really matters.

    crawling up its own collective ass and making fools of themselves in the eyes of the public instead of actually achieving anything productive

    what a POS

    ‘what does it matter if Larry Silverstien is sitting there counting his billions while the waitress who brought him his breakfast every morning at the Windows on the World restaurant was cynically slaughtered off in that little act of Jewish lightning + false flag act of war. They needed as many casualties as they could get! That’s why they told the people in the second tower to go back to their offices and cubicles after the first plane hit. Sure, they did so knowing a second plane was coming and that all thse people were going to die horribly, but that was the point! They needed all those people to die! How else to get Americans to fight Israelis wars for them!’

    [MORE]

    what a low life POS

    they had it coming! The American people would not fight Israel’s wars on their own! They had to think that it was Muslims who did it in order to get the stupid Americans to fight for Israel! If the American people would have sent their sons and daughters to die for Israel (as they should) then it would never have been necessary to do that false flag! But they wouldn’t! We looked at it all and the American people were just too damn anti-Semitic to die for Israel! So we needed a “new Pearl Harbor”!

    all your bullshit about not liking Israel is just that, bullshit

    I thought maybe you were just retarded, but no one can be this dumb

    Read More
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  130. alexander says:
    @Vendetta
    My point is, this simply is not all that implausible. There are hundreds of mothers who have actually murdered their own children, and there are hundreds of Muslim women who've taken part in suicide bombings in the Middle East, Russia, and Nigeria. How exactly do you place the idea of of this woman taking part in a murder spree into the realm of flying pigs and leprechauns?

    And an entire book could be (and probably has been) filled with accounts of eyewitness testimony that were completely at odds with events that have taken place in dozens and dozens of cases. Occam's Razor points to the eyewitnesses who say "three white men" simply having been mistaken in what they saw, rather than some elaborate cover-up and frame-job having taken place.

    If you were the agent in charge of framing some innocent Muslim suspect, why would you choose this mother of a newborn, if it was so unbelievable?

    As for the Twin Towers, I'm not convinced that the laws of physics were violated, as there are thousands of engineers and experts who have said otherwise. What frustrates me most of all is that none of that whole argument really matters.

    I don't need to prove that they were the ones who masterminded 9/11 to despise Israel and the neocons, or to recognize what a catastrophe the war on Iraq was. I already do so, for various reasons that are not subject to interminable debates about angels dancing on pinheads. I already believe the U.S. needs to dump Israel and that the neocons belong in a gulag in Alaska.

    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me, the neocons' opposition crawling up its own collective ass and making fools of themselves in the eyes of the public instead of actually achieving anything productive against them.

    Vendetta,

    I think it may be important to spill a little ink on the” eyewitness testimony”…..

    .You have one eyewitness who saw three large muscular “white” males “going in”….

    and you have another eyewitness who saw three large white males “coming out”.

    There is a chance” one” witness could be mistaken….but both?

    It would help (your argument) if there were a raft of “other” eyewitnesses who were there,who said they saw the (now dead) Muslim couple, at the scene,or firing shots,or escaping…or something.

    It would help if there were eyewitnesses who said they heard a woman’s voice, or saw the couple arguing or were unsure of what they saw altogether…

    But I have not heard anything like that.

    Your argument is contingent on your” belief” the eyewitnesses “misread” what they saw.

    But you don’t “know” that to be true, Vendetta.

    What happens if the eyewitnesses were exactly accurate in what they witnessed ?

    What happens then?

    Read More
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  131. @Jonathan Revusky

    50 years ago.
     
    It's the most notorious example, but the modus operandi of those people has not changed meanwhile.

    The JFK assassination was 50 years ago too. But the modus operandi on these Deep State operations has not changed too much. There are typically patsies who get framed. Then it was a white boy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Lot of water under the bridge since then, and a lot of attacks by Islam
     
    Those of us who have a clue about these issues know that the Muslims being framed are patsies, like the aforementioned Oswald.

    But there is the point that, even if they were Muslims, how does that constitute attacks by Islam? If some guy named John Smith goes and shoots some people, does anybody ever say that is an attack by Christianity? In fact, nobody will even mention whether that person was a Catholic or a Lutheran or what, because it's not considered relevant.

    So all this stuff about how we are being "attacked by Islam", this is just revealing yourself as a weak-minded fool who cannot think for himself, and thus, accepts any absurd framing of any issue that they put out there.

    Sure, sure. You dream up anything you care to put out there, blame the United States and when I call bullshit on your conspiracy, I am a weak-minded fool. Meanwhile, you have a Muslim ax to grind in these forums. You too hate the Jews. And when your arguments get the customary holes poked into them, everyone but you is a weak minded fool.

    Let me tell you something about conspiracies, Revuski. There were hundreds of federal, state and local cops and investigators in on this and God only knows how many spooks. But in every conspiracy, there is an exposure of the plot to a whistle blower. Now maybe that pops up sometime, my mind is open, it certainly did in the Kennedy assassinations, Jack AND Bob. But San Bernardino? That was Muslims, radical Islam at work. Hang the ISIS tag, hang whatever label you want on it, hate-filled Islamic Terror did that.

    If it’s something else, other than your hatred for the United States, name the source that has exposed this conspiracy? We need to get them into court and get them testifying. In the meantime, your ravings and dreams that it was something else mean nothing. Only the weak-of-mind listen to your ravings, or read them I should say and think you could be on to something. Blame the Jews, blame the government, blame everyone and everything else but the fact that Islam has hateful intentions. Allah Akbar, baby!

    And a Merry Christmas to you sir.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    For you information:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOagQ_nfCes

    "Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, explains that US foreign policy is driven by the desire for war profits. Vast numbers of people die and debts multiply for no other reason except the profits of a few armaments manufacturers. Washington and its presstitutes call this “freedom and democracy.”

    But of course, the only reason for the illegal wars of aggression, depleted US treasury, obscene rise in wealth and power of the .00001% should be some distant lands that happen to be filled with mineral resources. Right. And PNAC is great.
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  132. @Jim Christian
    I am a decorated Veteran, United States Navy. From 1975-1981 I served 5 years 7 months aboard the flight deck of USS Nimitz, Sixth Fleet, Attack Squadron 35, Carrier Airwing 8. We sailed the Mediterranean, Europe in The North Sea, the Arctic Circle. My tasks at the time of course are none of your business. In December 1979 we departed the Med for the Indian Ocean and from USS Nimitz was launched the ill-fated Iranian Hostage Crisis, April 1980. Look it up.

    Now, I spent many a liberty in Israel and for various reasons, aircraft maintenance, let us say, had many occasions to work with IAF personel in Israel. These are people I know and that you do not. Your middle eastern English and speech patterns betray you, AnnaMaria. You hate Jews. We're not idiots. Israel is not the problem. Iran is the problem. Whatever, No one here is convincing anyone of anything. You hate Jews and that's that. Of course, you'll come back with "Some of my best friends are Jews!". Sure they are.

    In any case, I departed service aboard USS Nimitz a few weeks after a crash on board in May, 1981 which killed 11 and wounded many more. Look it up.

    And where did you serve, Sweetheart?

    I am a decorated Veteran, United States Navy. From 1975-1981 I served 5 years 7 months aboard the flight deck of USS Nimitz, Sixth Fleet, Attack Squadron 35, Carrier Airwing 8. We sailed the Mediterranean, Europe in The North Sea, the Arctic Circle.(blah blah blah blah snip blah blah)

    Even if all of that were true (which I seriously doubt)…. dude, so f***ing what!!?? What does it have to do with anything?

    Oh, c’mon. You’re a pimple faced kid, most likely sitting in some cubicle in some nondescript office building in a suburb of Tel Aviv. At the time of the above incidents, you were not even born. (Granted, I have no proof of this conjecture, but it seems far more likely than what you are claiming. And, in any case, it doesn’t matter anyway…. who cares anyway?)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    Anna Marie asked, I replied. My service is as described, I'm 58 years old and have my own home North of Boston. I spent thirty years in telecom in DC and moved here in 2009. Who could make all that up?

    Hey, Abdul-Allah Akbar-Revusky, no one was talking to you. But you certainly have the tingles for me. I clearly inspire you. That's good.

    Wonder why/how Unz has attracted the hateful, deranged filth of the radical Muslim Middle East to this site? Disgusting comments sections these days, profane, personal, with the clinically insane enraged and confused at perfect logic. It was good while it lasted. Unz really has the Radical Islamic community in a perfect state of crybaby.

    Ted, I know you hate to moderate, but Jeez, huh?
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  133. @Vendetta
    My point is, this simply is not all that implausible. There are hundreds of mothers who have actually murdered their own children, and there are hundreds of Muslim women who've taken part in suicide bombings in the Middle East, Russia, and Nigeria. How exactly do you place the idea of of this woman taking part in a murder spree into the realm of flying pigs and leprechauns?

    And an entire book could be (and probably has been) filled with accounts of eyewitness testimony that were completely at odds with events that have taken place in dozens and dozens of cases. Occam's Razor points to the eyewitnesses who say "three white men" simply having been mistaken in what they saw, rather than some elaborate cover-up and frame-job having taken place.

    If you were the agent in charge of framing some innocent Muslim suspect, why would you choose this mother of a newborn, if it was so unbelievable?

    As for the Twin Towers, I'm not convinced that the laws of physics were violated, as there are thousands of engineers and experts who have said otherwise. What frustrates me most of all is that none of that whole argument really matters.

    I don't need to prove that they were the ones who masterminded 9/11 to despise Israel and the neocons, or to recognize what a catastrophe the war on Iraq was. I already do so, for various reasons that are not subject to interminable debates about angels dancing on pinheads. I already believe the U.S. needs to dump Israel and that the neocons belong in a gulag in Alaska.

    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me, the neocons' opposition crawling up its own collective ass and making fools of themselves in the eyes of the public instead of actually achieving anything productive against them.

    If you were the agent in charge of framing some innocent Muslim suspect, why would you choose this mother of a newborn, if it was so unbelievable?

    Oh, I see, a variant on the old Morton’s fork argument. The implausibility of the government’s story is actually proof that it is true, because if the government was going to lie, they would make up a more plausible story.

    So basically, if the government’s story is plausible, you believe it, and if it is implausible, then you believe it, because the government would make up a better story. (And under what conditions do you ever disbelieve the government narrative then?)

    As for the Twin Towers, I’m not convinced that the laws of physics were violated, as there are thousands of engineers and experts who have said otherwise.

    You mean, that don’t work for NIST or some other organ of the State? I don’t think so.

    It’s an open secret that building 7 was a controlled demolition. There is no other way to get a steel framed skyscraper to fall straight down like that. The claim that such a symmetrical straight down collapse occurred from randomly spreading office fires defies basic natural laws, yes.

    What frustrates me most of all is that none of that whole argument really matters.

    TRANSLATION of shill-speak: It really matters. It’s central.

    I already believe the U.S. needs to dump Israel and that the neocons belong in a gulag in Alaska.

    You’re a shill. You’re posing as someone who is anti-Israel in order to try to present yourself as someone credible here. No dice. People surely can see through this. (Well, I can only speak for myself. It’s obvious.) If you were genuinely anti-Israel, you wouldn’t be trying to spread this nonsense that the U.S.S. Liberty attack was some sort of “honest mistake”.

    Not only are you not anti-Israel, you probably work for them and are writing this from somewhere in or around Tel Aviv.

    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me,

    TRANSLATION: I work for the people who did 9/11 and am blowing smoke here on their behalf.

    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me, the neocons’ opposition crawling up its own collective ass and making fools of themselves in the eyes of the public instead of actually achieving anything productive against them.

    Oh, “achieving anything productive”. This must be one of the current Hasbara talking points….

    Look, this here is a discussion forum. All you can do on a discussion forum is have a discussion. If the result of a discussion is to expose the truth, to help people figure out the truth, then it is productive because that is all that a discussion forum can produce.

    When you say that the topic is “unproductive” all that really means is that you (actually your masters) do not want this topic discussed. That alone is enough to suggest that the topic is well worth discussing!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Sorry Jonathan, on this subject you simply are not rational, and neither is Rurik. This is a religion to you. This isn't a conclusion either of you have reached through skeptical, rational inquiry and research, nor is it one you are capable of debating in a rational manner.

    This is something you've arrived at through revelation, and which you intend to pass on as revelation. An unquestionable truth, a sacred narrative. You are not independent thinkers, you are cultists.

    If you weren't a cultist, you'd be offering counter-arguments to dispute the specific claims of Slade's analysis, not accusing me of being a secret Israeli agent. Now Rurik's a lost cause, hopeless embarrassment to your own side of the argument, but can you do any better? Can you contest some of the specific claims of the article?
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  134. @Jonathan Revusky

    I am a decorated Veteran, United States Navy. From 1975-1981 I served 5 years 7 months aboard the flight deck of USS Nimitz, Sixth Fleet, Attack Squadron 35, Carrier Airwing 8. We sailed the Mediterranean, Europe in The North Sea, the Arctic Circle.(blah blah blah blah snip blah blah)
     
    Even if all of that were true (which I seriously doubt).... dude, so f***ing what!!?? What does it have to do with anything?

    Oh, c'mon. You're a pimple faced kid, most likely sitting in some cubicle in some nondescript office building in a suburb of Tel Aviv. At the time of the above incidents, you were not even born. (Granted, I have no proof of this conjecture, but it seems far more likely than what you are claiming. And, in any case, it doesn't matter anyway.... who cares anyway?)

    Anna Marie asked, I replied. My service is as described, I’m 58 years old and have my own home North of Boston. I spent thirty years in telecom in DC and moved here in 2009. Who could make all that up?

    Hey, Abdul-Allah Akbar-Revusky, no one was talking to you. But you certainly have the tingles for me. I clearly inspire you. That’s good.

    Wonder why/how Unz has attracted the hateful, deranged filth of the radical Muslim Middle East to this site? Disgusting comments sections these days, profane, personal, with the clinically insane enraged and confused at perfect logic. It was good while it lasted. Unz really has the Radical Islamic community in a perfect state of crybaby.

    Ted, I know you hate to moderate, but Jeez, huh?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Anna Marie asked, I replied.
     
    LOL. You could have left out the first three letters of "replied" in the above!


    My service is as described, I’m 58 years old and have my own home North of Boston. I spent thirty years in telecom in DC and moved here in 2009. Who could make all that up?
     
    Who could make all that up? Well, to answer your question, anybody could make that up! Of course! Anybody!


    Hey, Abdul-Allah Akbar-Revusky, no one was talking to you. But you certainly have the tingles for me. I clearly inspire you. That’s good.
     
    I'm pretty sure you're Israeli. The way you think that accusing somebody of being an Arab is some kind of grave insult. And then you accuse everybody of being an anti-semite. All this is very typical of Israeli culture.

    That you think calling somebody an Arab is such an insult says quite a bit about you and nothing about me. I am, of course, not an Arab or a Muslim, but I don't consider somebody calling me that to be some sort of vile insult.


    Wonder why/how Unz has attracted the hateful, deranged filth of the radical Muslim Middle East to this site?
     
    There are a wide variety of people on this site. It's hard to know who they are, of course. But I think it's safe to say that very few are Muslims. There are far more Israelis spreading Zionist propaganda talking points. Earlier, you also hit the "the big problem is Iran" talking point.

    You are not who you represent that you are. I'm quite sure of that.

    Ted, I know you hate to moderate, but Jeez, huh?

     

    WTF? Who is Ted? Are you working your hasbara on various sites and confusing which one you're on maybe? LOL.
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  135. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian
    Sure, sure. You dream up anything you care to put out there, blame the United States and when I call bullshit on your conspiracy, I am a weak-minded fool. Meanwhile, you have a Muslim ax to grind in these forums. You too hate the Jews. And when your arguments get the customary holes poked into them, everyone but you is a weak minded fool.

    Let me tell you something about conspiracies, Revuski. There were hundreds of federal, state and local cops and investigators in on this and God only knows how many spooks. But in every conspiracy, there is an exposure of the plot to a whistle blower. Now maybe that pops up sometime, my mind is open, it certainly did in the Kennedy assassinations, Jack AND Bob. But San Bernardino? That was Muslims, radical Islam at work. Hang the ISIS tag, hang whatever label you want on it, hate-filled Islamic Terror did that.

    If it's something else, other than your hatred for the United States, name the source that has exposed this conspiracy? We need to get them into court and get them testifying. In the meantime, your ravings and dreams that it was something else mean nothing. Only the weak-of-mind listen to your ravings, or read them I should say and think you could be on to something. Blame the Jews, blame the government, blame everyone and everything else but the fact that Islam has hateful intentions. Allah Akbar, baby!

    And a Merry Christmas to you sir.

    For you information:

    “Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, explains that US foreign policy is driven by the desire for war profits. Vast numbers of people die and debts multiply for no other reason except the profits of a few armaments manufacturers. Washington and its presstitutes call this “freedom and democracy.”

    But of course, the only reason for the illegal wars of aggression, depleted US treasury, obscene rise in wealth and power of the .00001% should be some distant lands that happen to be filled with mineral resources. Right. And PNAC is great.

    Read More
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  136. Rurik says:

    You’re a shill. You’re posing as someone who is anti-Israel in order to try to present yourself as someone credible here. No dice. People surely can see through this. (Well, I can only speak for myself. It’s obvious.)

    ‘USS Liberty was just an honest mistake’

    ‘Osama did 911, and if there’s any anomalies to the story, it’s no big deal, nothing to worry about’

    yea JR, you’ve got his number

    The implausibility of the government’s story is actually proof that it is true,

    : )

    Read More
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  137. @Jim Christian
    Anna Marie asked, I replied. My service is as described, I'm 58 years old and have my own home North of Boston. I spent thirty years in telecom in DC and moved here in 2009. Who could make all that up?

    Hey, Abdul-Allah Akbar-Revusky, no one was talking to you. But you certainly have the tingles for me. I clearly inspire you. That's good.

    Wonder why/how Unz has attracted the hateful, deranged filth of the radical Muslim Middle East to this site? Disgusting comments sections these days, profane, personal, with the clinically insane enraged and confused at perfect logic. It was good while it lasted. Unz really has the Radical Islamic community in a perfect state of crybaby.

    Ted, I know you hate to moderate, but Jeez, huh?

    Anna Marie asked, I replied.

    LOL. You could have left out the first three letters of “replied” in the above!

    My service is as described, I’m 58 years old and have my own home North of Boston. I spent thirty years in telecom in DC and moved here in 2009. Who could make all that up?

    Who could make all that up? Well, to answer your question, anybody could make that up! Of course! Anybody!

    Hey, Abdul-Allah Akbar-Revusky, no one was talking to you. But you certainly have the tingles for me. I clearly inspire you. That’s good.

    I’m pretty sure you’re Israeli. The way you think that accusing somebody of being an Arab is some kind of grave insult. And then you accuse everybody of being an anti-semite. All this is very typical of Israeli culture.

    That you think calling somebody an Arab is such an insult says quite a bit about you and nothing about me. I am, of course, not an Arab or a Muslim, but I don’t consider somebody calling me that to be some sort of vile insult.

    Wonder why/how Unz has attracted the hateful, deranged filth of the radical Muslim Middle East to this site?

    There are a wide variety of people on this site. It’s hard to know who they are, of course. But I think it’s safe to say that very few are Muslims. There are far more Israelis spreading Zionist propaganda talking points. Earlier, you also hit the “the big problem is Iran” talking point.

    You are not who you represent that you are. I’m quite sure of that.

    Ted, I know you hate to moderate, but Jeez, huh?

    WTF? Who is Ted? Are you working your hasbara on various sites and confusing which one you’re on maybe? LOL.

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  138. I’m not arguing for these wars. My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.

    I’ve never once sat here and argued anything in support of the psychopathic NeoCons. Those men were evil. But we need a breather in the United States from the immigration so we can get caught up. That’s all. I’ve said all along since I engaged Unz that not one more bomb be dropped in the supposed U.S. interest. Our problems are here. Too much Middle Eastern immigration, too much involvement of the Mosques. Mosques are the cells and supporting infrastructure for Islamic Terror in the U.S.. They were in the case of 9/11, they were in the case of San Bernardino. And all those in between.

    And for the answer to that: Saudi Arabia.

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    • Replies: @geokat62

    I’m not arguing for these wars. My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.
     
    If you are truly concerned with feeding Americans, you should be calling for an end to the GWOT - i.e., the neocon policy of remaking the ME by regime-changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionst project to enhance the security of the jungle in the villa. These wars are draining the treasury of trillions, that's trillions with a T, which dwarfs the costs of bringing in more Muslims.
    , @Rurik

    My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.

    I’ve never once sat here and argued anything in support of the psychopathic NeoCons. Those men were evil.
     
    hmm

    yet here we have...

    Israel gets fed up and starts killing Palestinians at ratios far greater than 500:1. Maybe 1000:1. Maybe more sometimes. Of course, given that said Palestinians maintain the breeding habits of rodents, such a kill ratio becomes necessary to maintain safety in the region. And Iran is always good enough to provide reason and cover. What does Iran care?

    Israel performs a service to the greater Middle East. They kill Palestinians.

     

    http://www.unz.com/article/beyond-isis/#comment-1252795

    just an American patriot worried about uncontrolled Muslim immigration?

    or a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?

    hmm
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  139. Sure, sure. I’ll post a copy of my DD-214. Hows the weather in Dubai, AnnaMarie?

    I thought you were merely disturbed, but no, you’re deranged also.

    Merry Christmas!

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  140. Vendetta says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    If you were the agent in charge of framing some innocent Muslim suspect, why would you choose this mother of a newborn, if it was so unbelievable?
     
    Oh, I see, a variant on the old Morton's fork argument. The implausibility of the government's story is actually proof that it is true, because if the government was going to lie, they would make up a more plausible story.

    So basically, if the government's story is plausible, you believe it, and if it is implausible, then you believe it, because the government would make up a better story. (And under what conditions do you ever disbelieve the government narrative then?)

    As for the Twin Towers, I’m not convinced that the laws of physics were violated, as there are thousands of engineers and experts who have said otherwise.
     
    You mean, that don't work for NIST or some other organ of the State? I don't think so.

    It's an open secret that building 7 was a controlled demolition. There is no other way to get a steel framed skyscraper to fall straight down like that. The claim that such a symmetrical straight down collapse occurred from randomly spreading office fires defies basic natural laws, yes.

    What frustrates me most of all is that none of that whole argument really matters.
     
    TRANSLATION of shill-speak: It really matters. It's central.

    I already believe the U.S. needs to dump Israel and that the neocons belong in a gulag in Alaska.
     
    You're a shill. You're posing as someone who is anti-Israel in order to try to present yourself as someone credible here. No dice. People surely can see through this. (Well, I can only speak for myself. It's obvious.) If you were genuinely anti-Israel, you wouldn't be trying to spread this nonsense that the U.S.S. Liberty attack was some sort of "honest mistake".

    Not only are you not anti-Israel, you probably work for them and are writing this from somewhere in or around Tel Aviv.


    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me,
     
    TRANSLATION: I work for the people who did 9/11 and am blowing smoke here on their behalf.


    The whole Truther movement looks like a useful idiocy trap to me, the neocons’ opposition crawling up its own collective ass and making fools of themselves in the eyes of the public instead of actually achieving anything productive against them.
     
    Oh, "achieving anything productive". This must be one of the current Hasbara talking points....

    Look, this here is a discussion forum. All you can do on a discussion forum is have a discussion. If the result of a discussion is to expose the truth, to help people figure out the truth, then it is productive because that is all that a discussion forum can produce.

    When you say that the topic is "unproductive" all that really means is that you (actually your masters) do not want this topic discussed. That alone is enough to suggest that the topic is well worth discussing!

    Sorry Jonathan, on this subject you simply are not rational, and neither is Rurik. This is a religion to you. This isn’t a conclusion either of you have reached through skeptical, rational inquiry and research, nor is it one you are capable of debating in a rational manner.

    This is something you’ve arrived at through revelation, and which you intend to pass on as revelation. An unquestionable truth, a sacred narrative. You are not independent thinkers, you are cultists.

    If you weren’t a cultist, you’d be offering counter-arguments to dispute the specific claims of Slade’s analysis, not accusing me of being a secret Israeli agent. Now Rurik’s a lost cause, hopeless embarrassment to your own side of the argument, but can you do any better? Can you contest some of the specific claims of the article?

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  141. Vendetta says:
    @Rurik

    your profane cuckoldry fantasies.
     
    "cuckholdry" ?

    I said you sound like the kind of person who would hold a murderers' dick while he's pissing on the grave of his murdered American sailor victims. What has that to do with "cuckholdry"?

    don't ask me to read bullshit when I can see if for bullshit a mile away

    that atrocity happened in 1967. I've read all I need to about the details and all the lies and obfuscations that the Israelis could muster

    anyone who still claims that they just couldn't distinguish it from an old Egyptian horse boat is full of shit. OK?

    just like the imbeciles who claim building seven fell down because of an office fire or two. Either they're lying, or they're so breathtakingly stupid that it actually hurts to contemplate it.

    I have tried to learn to be more lenient to those who really are that, um .. challenged.

    I have no patience for the liars or shills, but for those who are children of a lesser god, I've found that some leeway is in order

    it is very hard for me to listen to someone watch a video of building seven falling down and say 'it could have just sort of fallen down, you know. There was some damage after all'

    my mind races, and I'm struck by incredulity. It hits me like a bus. There just is no way anyone can be that dumb!

    But I have to learned to be less critical. There really are people who really are that .. uninformed.

    it's very hard for me to accept, but then there's people who believe that Saddam did 911

    there's people who believe what ever you tell them

    it just causes me cognitive dissonance to try to reconcile my mind to the fact that those people really are out there, but they are. And they are legion.

    so my challenge is to distinguish between those who are liars and those who are, just um .. credulous

    if you're in the latter, then don't copy/paste some lengthy bullshit and tell others to read it

    apparently the Mr. Unz suffered through it, and was not impressed

    he's got more patience with bullshit than I do.

    if you have something compelling to offer in the way of insights of rational observation, then by all means! Please do edify us all!

    otherwise, take your own advise and fuck off

    Cuckoldry, not “cuckholdry.” This is a country where we speak English.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    whatever

    it's not your spelling that I'm questioning, it's your motivations in trying at long last to justify what Israel did to the USS Liberty and those men

    machine gunning the life rafts is very telling, because you see they couldn't tolerate any survivors now could they?

    what was the reason for that? I just checked your little copy/paste and they seemed to have overlooked that little part. Sort of the way the 911 commission overlooked building seven, huh?

    what was that you said? The Israelis thought they were Egyptians? Oh, but then you changed that didn't you, and said you were just joking or something. Anyways, we still don't know why they machine gunned the life boats.

    the really significant thing about the USS Liberty massacre is how people today say that they could never keep a handle on something like 911 if it were an inside job. But look at the way they've kept a handle on the cowardly act of war Israel committed? That should have been front page news. There should have been a diplomatic catastrophe and trials and prison time and even some men should have hanged for that crime. But instead there was nothing.

    Proof that the PTB can keep a handle on anything, no matter how outrageous or treacherous. Actually the more outrageous the better, because if it's so beyond the pale that people's minds can't even comprehend the evil, that's the way to do it, huh Vendetta?

    Anyways, I hope there are some readers out there that will take the time to research what happened on that infamous day. It is telling when you're trying to understand and come to grips with what happened on 911.
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  142. geokat62 says:
    @Jim Christian
    I'm not arguing for these wars. My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can't afford to feed our own and we're bringing in more.

    I've never once sat here and argued anything in support of the psychopathic NeoCons. Those men were evil. But we need a breather in the United States from the immigration so we can get caught up. That's all. I've said all along since I engaged Unz that not one more bomb be dropped in the supposed U.S. interest. Our problems are here. Too much Middle Eastern immigration, too much involvement of the Mosques. Mosques are the cells and supporting infrastructure for Islamic Terror in the U.S.. They were in the case of 9/11, they were in the case of San Bernardino. And all those in between.

    And for the answer to that: Saudi Arabia.

    I’m not arguing for these wars. My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.

    If you are truly concerned with feeding Americans, you should be calling for an end to the GWOT – i.e., the neocon policy of remaking the ME by regime-changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionst project to enhance the security of the jungle in the villa. These wars are draining the treasury of trillions, that’s trillions with a T, which dwarfs the costs of bringing in more Muslims.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    I couldn't care less about whatever policy YOU want us to follow. Your agenda is not mine. GWOT, ME, all your little talking points bore me. They aren't relevant. I've already stated my objections to these wars, from Saddam, through Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, many of these I visited years ago in the service, decades after Vietnam hammering out peace treaties, economies, technology shares and in one damned year, the entire Mediterranean coast of the African continent is wiped out and in chaos. Obama and company encouraged and supported and dabbled in the Arab Spring and God only knows the truth about Libya and Egypt. It was a disaster and it was a cherry on top of the Iraq disaster. And now we're headed for a Syrian disaster and some measure of disaster with Russia. I wasn't for ANY of it. Nor am I now. They traded one tyranny for another. Frankly, Arabs and Muslims are INCAPABLE of living in peace. You MUST have a brutal dictator where you have Muslims. It's the way it is. Sorry. That's the facts.

    So stick the Neocon stuff somewhere, wouldja? If you think Obama has his own Neocons, take it up with HIM. The world wanted a reset with Obama, they really got one. How's that working for us all at this point? Everyone at each others' throats, and we have infants running foreign policy, or likely being led by the nose.

    Frankly, screw it. Doesn't affect ME.

    , @geokat62

    ... the jungle in the villa.
     
    I just realized that I wrote this a little differently than I normally do. I guess rather than providing the Israeli viewpoint, I was subconsciously channeling the Palestinian perspective.
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  143. Rurik says:
    @Jim Christian
    I'm not arguing for these wars. My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can't afford to feed our own and we're bringing in more.

    I've never once sat here and argued anything in support of the psychopathic NeoCons. Those men were evil. But we need a breather in the United States from the immigration so we can get caught up. That's all. I've said all along since I engaged Unz that not one more bomb be dropped in the supposed U.S. interest. Our problems are here. Too much Middle Eastern immigration, too much involvement of the Mosques. Mosques are the cells and supporting infrastructure for Islamic Terror in the U.S.. They were in the case of 9/11, they were in the case of San Bernardino. And all those in between.

    And for the answer to that: Saudi Arabia.

    My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.

    I’ve never once sat here and argued anything in support of the psychopathic NeoCons. Those men were evil.

    hmm

    yet here we have…

    Israel gets fed up and starts killing Palestinians at ratios far greater than 500:1. Maybe 1000:1. Maybe more sometimes. Of course, given that said Palestinians maintain the breeding habits of rodents, such a kill ratio becomes necessary to maintain safety in the region. And Iran is always good enough to provide reason and cover. What does Iran care?

    Israel performs a service to the greater Middle East. They kill Palestinians.

    http://www.unz.com/article/beyond-isis/#comment-1252795

    just an American patriot worried about uncontrolled Muslim immigration?

    or a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?

    hmm

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    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    Israel does what it does to exist. They can do what they want, and yeah, if they achieve high kill ratios, what do I care? Muslims shouldn't poke the Israeli lion with rockets if they don't like watching the rubble bounce. Again, why do I care? I am all in on Israeli self defense. It gets ugly. Behave, Muslims, or you will pay.

    But the U.S. isn't dropping bombs in support of the United States' existence. It's dropping bombs for...what is it we drop bombs in Syria and Iraq for? Ask Obama, he may have an answer. You certainly do not. And I'm not for THAT. You people raise Hell about NeoCons and Bush. What the Hell is driving Obama in this disaster? He's no different.
    , @RobinG
    Is J.C. "a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?" Perhaps. But the thing is, Rurik, he doesn't care what anyone else says. He's a mean old bastard, and he doesn't care who knows it.

    J.C.'s idea that, "We can’t afford to feed our own..." is absurd. We can afford not only to feed our own, but to clothe and care for them as well.
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  144. @geokat62

    I’m not arguing for these wars. My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.
     
    If you are truly concerned with feeding Americans, you should be calling for an end to the GWOT - i.e., the neocon policy of remaking the ME by regime-changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionst project to enhance the security of the jungle in the villa. These wars are draining the treasury of trillions, that's trillions with a T, which dwarfs the costs of bringing in more Muslims.

    I couldn’t care less about whatever policy YOU want us to follow. Your agenda is not mine. GWOT, ME, all your little talking points bore me. They aren’t relevant. I’ve already stated my objections to these wars, from Saddam, through Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, many of these I visited years ago in the service, decades after Vietnam hammering out peace treaties, economies, technology shares and in one damned year, the entire Mediterranean coast of the African continent is wiped out and in chaos. Obama and company encouraged and supported and dabbled in the Arab Spring and God only knows the truth about Libya and Egypt. It was a disaster and it was a cherry on top of the Iraq disaster. And now we’re headed for a Syrian disaster and some measure of disaster with Russia. I wasn’t for ANY of it. Nor am I now. They traded one tyranny for another. Frankly, Arabs and Muslims are INCAPABLE of living in peace. You MUST have a brutal dictator where you have Muslims. It’s the way it is. Sorry. That’s the facts.

    So stick the Neocon stuff somewhere, wouldja? If you think Obama has his own Neocons, take it up with HIM. The world wanted a reset with Obama, they really got one. How’s that working for us all at this point? Everyone at each others’ throats, and we have infants running foreign policy, or likely being led by the nose.

    Frankly, screw it. Doesn’t affect ME.

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    • Replies: @geokat62

    Frankly, Arabs and Muslims are INCAPABLE of living in peace. You MUST have a brutal dictator where you have Muslims. It’s the way it is. Sorry. That’s the facts.
     
    Oh, those are the facts, are they? What about the former Yugoslavia, where you had multi-ethnic, multi-sectarian communities - Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Kosovars, Slovenians - living together within common borders? How long did that "nation" last when the strongman Tito died and the red army pulled out?

    Well, the same principle applies to these Muslims you admire so much.

    Here's a comment I made previously to the argument that the neocons are interested in promoting democracy in the ME:

    As I asserted in a previous post, it is very important to remember the source of the Bush Doctrine of promoting democracy at the point of a gun. It was a book (The Case for Democracy) by Natan Sharansky who was a refusnik and former Interior Minister of Israel. Rather than having a genuine desire to liberate the peoples of the ME, Sharansky devised an ingenious scheme that would destabilize Israel’s remaining enemies. These countries were targeted because they were supporting the Palestinians in their struggle against Israeli oppression. The common trait among these countries was that they were led by autocrats – Hussein in Iraq, Assad in Syria, Gaddafi in Libya – or autocratic regimes – the theocracy in Iran. Since these regimes proved difficult to subvert from without, Sharansky’s brilliant idea was to topple them from within. And this would require little effort thanks to how most of these countries were artificially constructed on the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. The Sykes-Picot Agreement was based on the principle of “Divide and Rule.” So Shia, Sunni, and Kurd were placed within a common border. Good luck trying to establish a functioning democracy under these circumstances. So next time someone talks about the virtue of “spreading democracy,” remember these are really code words for spreading instability and ultimately, bringing about regime change.
     
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  145. Clyde says:
    @Rurik

    Posters have mentioned false flag operations here eleven times.
     
    wasn't it neat how Israel committed that false flag attack on the USS Liberty and slaughtered or maimed over two hundred US crew members?

    aren't you glad that some 60 thousand young American men lost their lives in vain due to the lies that our government told about the Golf of Tonkin event?

    when our government lies, like about WMD or something to mass murder people and get our young men and women killed or worse, we should not complain

    it's unpatriotic

    huh?

    OK you have one and half false flag ops. Have any more? How about building seven? That one is a hardy perennial. How about when Floyd Patterson lost to Sonny Liston? False flags are high overrated. You have any others?

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    How about building seven?
     
    y0u haven't read the thread, quite a lot about building seven

    False flags are high overrated.
     
    I know guys who were in the theater when the Liberty was attacked. One of the geopolitical sea changes that have occurred recently was a little while ago, after a false flag chemical weapon attack in Syria was supposed to be that 'red line' that Assad had crossed as the pretext to bomb Syria into the stone age a al Libya. But it was amazing. First the British Parliament said no, which was incomprehensible, and then the US congress said no. This was momentous. And in both cases the motivation for telling the Fiend that they simply could not go along with its latest enormity was overwhelming popular resistance. We the people had stopped that planned adventure of the psychopaths. It was a sea change. This is why we don't have boots on the ground in Syria. It's why we don't have boots on the ground, (or at least very few) in Ukraine. It's why so far in this century they haven't been able to foment major wars other than Syria so far and some other minor dust ups.

    There is a nascent, burgeoning awakening. Slow, bovine to be sure. But like a sleeping giant that's been hibernating for generations, the proles of the West are coming out of their collective catatonia. Lies about WMD and trillions of dollars down the drain while our vets go without care. Lies about 911 that are increasingly becoming widely known. Lies about Benghazi and lies about ISIS and lies about just about everything. And so the American people are not so eager to fight the Zionist's wars for them, are they?

    This is what I'm taking about. Do I expect to change your mind or some of the other shills and stooges? Of course not. But if there are thoughtful people who might stumble onto the truth, here or there or wherever they might increasingly find it, an awakening might just transpire. The proverbial 100th monkey's eye's just might light up, and then who knows where this might lead.

    Already the GOP can't foist one of war stooges on the Republican base, who used to be known for their militaristic belligerence. But no more. Today the man who they're rallying around is saying we should talk to Putin. This is not what the ziocons want. No.

    So something is happening and it's good. We all need to keep plugging away. Pointing out that 911 was a false flag. That the lies about WMD have allowed our criminal government to send our country spinning into ruin for the benefit of the MIC and Israel. And the more people know about what Israel has done, both with the attack on the USS Liberty and the subsequent cover up, and all the American blood Israel has on its hands vis-a- vis 911, the better.

    When more people know they speak out to others they know and trust. Soon people are shamed from agitating for more war. People know it's all bullshit. But we have to keep at it. We have to keep telling the truth because there are a lot of war mongering minions of the Fiend who want us to fight their wars for them. We could be near the apex of Zio-influence in the West due to the Internet. Maybe not. Who knows. But if so, that could only be a good thing, no?

    Look at Bibi, all marginalized and Iran building nuclear bombs like so many Toyotas off the assembly line. Look at Putin grabbing up Crimea and soon Ukraine too and killing ZOGs terrorists in the Levant. Who'd a thunk it five years ago?

    We are entering a new time. A glorious time of nascent human freedom and a renaissance of enlightened consciousness. There is a light that's growing in the collective human spirit. It is saying no to tyranny and yes to understanding. It is broadening our capacity for love and a general transformational exaltation of the human spirit!

    Why just look at how someone like me is able to froth all of these truths at someone other than my dogs who just look at me with a cocked head and bemused expression. We're on a run, son, and the truth is coming out with guns blazing!
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  146. Rurik says:
    @Vendetta
    Cuckoldry, not "cuckholdry." This is a country where we speak English.

    whatever

    it’s not your spelling that I’m questioning, it’s your motivations in trying at long last to justify what Israel did to the USS Liberty and those men

    machine gunning the life rafts is very telling, because you see they couldn’t tolerate any survivors now could they?

    what was the reason for that? I just checked your little copy/paste and they seemed to have overlooked that little part. Sort of the way the 911 commission overlooked building seven, huh?

    what was that you said? The Israelis thought they were Egyptians? Oh, but then you changed that didn’t you, and said you were just joking or something. Anyways, we still don’t know why they machine gunned the life boats.

    the really significant thing about the USS Liberty massacre is how people today say that they could never keep a handle on something like 911 if it were an inside job. But look at the way they’ve kept a handle on the cowardly act of war Israel committed? That should have been front page news. There should have been a diplomatic catastrophe and trials and prison time and even some men should have hanged for that crime. But instead there was nothing.

    Proof that the PTB can keep a handle on anything, no matter how outrageous or treacherous. Actually the more outrageous the better, because if it’s so beyond the pale that people’s minds can’t even comprehend the evil, that’s the way to do it, huh Vendetta?

    Anyways, I hope there are some readers out there that will take the time to research what happened on that infamous day. It is telling when you’re trying to understand and come to grips with what happened on 911.

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Rurik, I am not attempting to justify, only to understand how and why it happened. In my book, this was not a friendly fire incident that can be excused as a normal "fog of war" mistake, but one brought about by extreme recklessness, incompetence, and unprofessionalism on the part of the Israeli armed forces. For which Israel should have faced a much harsher reprimand from the United States than it got. But I see no rational motive to explain why they'd have it done it intentionally. Cui Bono? They didn't.

    And there is no inconsistency when it comes to the lifeboats. As I said, that kind of pointless, malicious cruelty is hardly surprising from the Israeli armed forces if believed they were attacking Arabs.

    Are you telling me you'd be shocked at the idea that Israeli gunboats would massacre Egyptian sailors in their lifeboats? If so, I'd have to be the one now who tells you to stop being naive.
    , @alexander
    Rurik,

    I have researched that day. pretty well....I wrote a comment (#17) in a response to" Fnn" under one of Mr. Petras' earlier November articles " Wars, US military factions in command." that addresses the idea of a "template" or "precedent" for terror.as in the case of the USS Liberty.......I am interested in your response...


    Check it out...and let me know.

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  147. @Rurik

    My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.

    I’ve never once sat here and argued anything in support of the psychopathic NeoCons. Those men were evil.
     
    hmm

    yet here we have...

    Israel gets fed up and starts killing Palestinians at ratios far greater than 500:1. Maybe 1000:1. Maybe more sometimes. Of course, given that said Palestinians maintain the breeding habits of rodents, such a kill ratio becomes necessary to maintain safety in the region. And Iran is always good enough to provide reason and cover. What does Iran care?

    Israel performs a service to the greater Middle East. They kill Palestinians.

     

    http://www.unz.com/article/beyond-isis/#comment-1252795

    just an American patriot worried about uncontrolled Muslim immigration?

    or a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?

    hmm

    Israel does what it does to exist. They can do what they want, and yeah, if they achieve high kill ratios, what do I care? Muslims shouldn’t poke the Israeli lion with rockets if they don’t like watching the rubble bounce. Again, why do I care? I am all in on Israeli self defense. It gets ugly. Behave, Muslims, or you will pay.

    But the U.S. isn’t dropping bombs in support of the United States’ existence. It’s dropping bombs for…what is it we drop bombs in Syria and Iraq for? Ask Obama, he may have an answer. You certainly do not. And I’m not for THAT. You people raise Hell about NeoCons and Bush. What the Hell is driving Obama in this disaster? He’s no different.

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    • Replies: @geokat62

    You people raise Hell about NeoCons and Bush. What the Hell is driving Obama in this disaster? He’s no different.
     
    We people raise Hell about both sides of the Zionist coin: the neocon Republican side and the liberal interventionist Democrat side. There isn't a dime's worth of difference between them.
    , @Rurik

    But the U.S. isn’t dropping bombs in support of the United States’ existence. It’s dropping bombs for…what is it we drop bombs in Syria and Iraq for? Ask Obama, he may have an answer. You certainly do not.
     
    they are doing to Syria what they did to Libya and for the same reason. It serves Israel's interest to do so. Especially as Israel is drilling in the Golan Heights today but it isn't their land yet until Assad falls and then they lay claim to it.

    as I'm sure you're well aware

    your shtick of acting like an American is rather well polished, I'll give you that

    but there simply are no Americans that hate Palestinian's or Muslims that much. Your bile betrays you, and you can't keep from tossing in little clues to your identity because your ego requires you to pretend to yourself that you're so much more clever than the rest of us. But you're not. ; )
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  148. Vendetta says:
    @Rurik
    whatever

    it's not your spelling that I'm questioning, it's your motivations in trying at long last to justify what Israel did to the USS Liberty and those men

    machine gunning the life rafts is very telling, because you see they couldn't tolerate any survivors now could they?

    what was the reason for that? I just checked your little copy/paste and they seemed to have overlooked that little part. Sort of the way the 911 commission overlooked building seven, huh?

    what was that you said? The Israelis thought they were Egyptians? Oh, but then you changed that didn't you, and said you were just joking or something. Anyways, we still don't know why they machine gunned the life boats.

    the really significant thing about the USS Liberty massacre is how people today say that they could never keep a handle on something like 911 if it were an inside job. But look at the way they've kept a handle on the cowardly act of war Israel committed? That should have been front page news. There should have been a diplomatic catastrophe and trials and prison time and even some men should have hanged for that crime. But instead there was nothing.

    Proof that the PTB can keep a handle on anything, no matter how outrageous or treacherous. Actually the more outrageous the better, because if it's so beyond the pale that people's minds can't even comprehend the evil, that's the way to do it, huh Vendetta?

    Anyways, I hope there are some readers out there that will take the time to research what happened on that infamous day. It is telling when you're trying to understand and come to grips with what happened on 911.

    Rurik, I am not attempting to justify, only to understand how and why it happened. In my book, this was not a friendly fire incident that can be excused as a normal “fog of war” mistake, but one brought about by extreme recklessness, incompetence, and unprofessionalism on the part of the Israeli armed forces. For which Israel should have faced a much harsher reprimand from the United States than it got. But I see no rational motive to explain why they’d have it done it intentionally. Cui Bono? They didn’t.

    And there is no inconsistency when it comes to the lifeboats. As I said, that kind of pointless, malicious cruelty is hardly surprising from the Israeli armed forces if believed they were attacking Arabs.

    Are you telling me you’d be shocked at the idea that Israeli gunboats would massacre Egyptian sailors in their lifeboats? If so, I’d have to be the one now who tells you to stop being naive.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    But I see no rational motive to explain why they’d have it done it intentionally. Cui Bono? They didn’t.
     
    they wanted to make it look like the attack was done by Egypt. They were at war with Egypt and they wanted the US to think that Egypt had attacked the Liberty and thereby cause the US to stomp Egypt into the ground.

    Is that such a leap?

    That's what all false flags are for. To make people go to war against an enemy who never did anything but who can be blamed for some terrible attack that can be used as a cassus belli for war and rouse an enraged public al la Pearl Harbor, or Gulf of Tonkin, or Sinking of the Maine, or Burring of the Reichstag, or if you're a student of history, there are tones of them going back centuries. That's simply how it's done.
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  149. Jason says:

    Anyone notice these “conspiracy theories” always blame ONLY one group: Evil White Men.

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  150. Rurik says:
    @Clyde
    OK you have one and half false flag ops. Have any more? How about building seven? That one is a hardy perennial. How about when Floyd Patterson lost to Sonny Liston? False flags are high overrated. You have any others?

    How about building seven?

    y0u haven’t read the thread, quite a lot about building seven

    False flags are high overrated.

    I know guys who were in the theater when the Liberty was attacked. One of the geopolitical sea changes that have occurred recently was a little while ago, after a false flag chemical weapon attack in Syria was supposed to be that ‘red line’ that Assad had crossed as the pretext to bomb Syria into the stone age a al Libya. But it was amazing. First the British Parliament said no, which was incomprehensible, and then the US congress said no. This was momentous. And in both cases the motivation for telling the Fiend that they simply could not go along with its latest enormity was overwhelming popular resistance. We the people had stopped that planned adventure of the psychopaths. It was a sea change. This is why we don’t have boots on the ground in Syria. It’s why we don’t have boots on the ground, (or at least very few) in Ukraine. It’s why so far in this century they haven’t been able to foment major wars other than Syria so far and some other minor dust ups.

    There is a nascent, burgeoning awakening. Slow, bovine to be sure. But like a sleeping giant that’s been hibernating for generations, the proles of the West are coming out of their collective catatonia. Lies about WMD and trillions of dollars down the drain while our vets go without care. Lies about 911 that are increasingly becoming widely known. Lies about Benghazi and lies about ISIS and lies about just about everything. And so the American people are not so eager to fight the Zionist’s wars for them, are they?

    This is what I’m taking about. Do I expect to change your mind or some of the other shills and stooges? Of course not. But if there are thoughtful people who might stumble onto the truth, here or there or wherever they might increasingly find it, an awakening might just transpire. The proverbial 100th monkey’s eye’s just might light up, and then who knows where this might lead.

    Already the GOP can’t foist one of war stooges on the Republican base, who used to be known for their militaristic belligerence. But no more. Today the man who they’re rallying around is saying we should talk to Putin. This is not what the ziocons want. No.

    So something is happening and it’s good. We all need to keep plugging away. Pointing out that 911 was a false flag. That the lies about WMD have allowed our criminal government to send our country spinning into ruin for the benefit of the MIC and Israel. And the more people know about what Israel has done, both with the attack on the USS Liberty and the subsequent cover up, and all the American blood Israel has on its hands vis-a- vis 911, the better.

    When more people know they speak out to others they know and trust. Soon people are shamed from agitating for more war. People know it’s all bullshit. But we have to keep at it. We have to keep telling the truth because there are a lot of war mongering minions of the Fiend who want us to fight their wars for them. We could be near the apex of Zio-influence in the West due to the Internet. Maybe not. Who knows. But if so, that could only be a good thing, no?

    Look at Bibi, all marginalized and Iran building nuclear bombs like so many Toyotas off the assembly line. Look at Putin grabbing up Crimea and soon Ukraine too and killing ZOGs terrorists in the Levant. Who’d a thunk it five years ago?

    We are entering a new time. A glorious time of nascent human freedom and a renaissance of enlightened consciousness. There is a light that’s growing in the collective human spirit. It is saying no to tyranny and yes to understanding. It is broadening our capacity for love and a general transformational exaltation of the human spirit!

    Why just look at how someone like me is able to froth all of these truths at someone other than my dogs who just look at me with a cocked head and bemused expression. We’re on a run, son, and the truth is coming out with guns blazing!

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    Thank you. We do need optimism, at least as a defense against the parasitoids that have no hearts and ultimately no brains.
    , @RobinG
    RURIK, YOU'VE RUN RIGHT OFF THE RAILS AGAIN!

    Why do you write this crazy stuff? Not to mention it's wildly counter-productive. Just so you won't sidle back with any passive-aggressive BS, I'll be real clear.

    1. You said, "Look at Putin grabbing up Crimea and soon Ukraine too..."

    Nonsense. First, no grabbing. Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to petition Russia to accept them, and they did. This was peaceful, justified, and voluntary.

    Second, Russia does not want the Donbas, much less the whole Ukraine. Since before the Kiev coup, they've wanted Ukraine to be an independent, non-aligned bridge nation between Russia and Europe, and they're sticking to it.

    2. You said, "...Iran building nuclear bombs like so many Toyotas off the assembly line."

    More nonsense. Iran isn't building nuclear bombs, and just this week the investigation into any history of nuclear weapons manufacture was finished, giving Iran a clean 'bill of health'. (If you want to allege that they have a secret nuclear weapons program, you certainly can't state that they're cranking them out on a assembly line.)

    The whole claim that Iran ever had a nuclear weapons program was based on a laptop - passed to CIA thru German intelligence (who warned it was not credible) from the MEK (you know, the terrorist group that hates Iran) and probably originally from the Mossad. Read Gareth Porter's book, Manufactured Crisis.

    The real question is, Rurik, what motivates you to stick this malicious garbage into the tail end of one of your long rants? (Would I find this kind of crap often if I read all your stuff?) Just when I was feeling conciliatory. As J.C. would say, Merry Christmas.
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  151. alexander says:
    @Rurik
    whatever

    it's not your spelling that I'm questioning, it's your motivations in trying at long last to justify what Israel did to the USS Liberty and those men

    machine gunning the life rafts is very telling, because you see they couldn't tolerate any survivors now could they?

    what was the reason for that? I just checked your little copy/paste and they seemed to have overlooked that little part. Sort of the way the 911 commission overlooked building seven, huh?

    what was that you said? The Israelis thought they were Egyptians? Oh, but then you changed that didn't you, and said you were just joking or something. Anyways, we still don't know why they machine gunned the life boats.

    the really significant thing about the USS Liberty massacre is how people today say that they could never keep a handle on something like 911 if it were an inside job. But look at the way they've kept a handle on the cowardly act of war Israel committed? That should have been front page news. There should have been a diplomatic catastrophe and trials and prison time and even some men should have hanged for that crime. But instead there was nothing.

    Proof that the PTB can keep a handle on anything, no matter how outrageous or treacherous. Actually the more outrageous the better, because if it's so beyond the pale that people's minds can't even comprehend the evil, that's the way to do it, huh Vendetta?

    Anyways, I hope there are some readers out there that will take the time to research what happened on that infamous day. It is telling when you're trying to understand and come to grips with what happened on 911.

    Rurik,

    I have researched that day. pretty well….I wrote a comment (#17) in a response to” Fnn” under one of Mr. Petras’ earlier November articles ” Wars, US military factions in command.” that addresses the idea of a “template” or “precedent” for terror.as in the case of the USS Liberty…….I am interested in your response…

    Check it out…and let me know.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hey Alexander,

    you hit the nail on the head

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/wars-us-militarist-factions-in-command/#comment-1243380


    had Israel succeeded in sinking the Liberty quickly and then successfully blamed it on Egypt, the United States may well have launched a war against Egypt.
     


    the trillions upon trillions of dollars the United States has spent fighting it…this form of “staged attacks” and “terror fraud” has gone completely ignored ,unnoticed , unrecognized and un-investigated .

    Does anyone know why ?
     
    because owning the Fed has given some Jews unprecedented power in our society. They've been able to use all that moolah to further their interests as they see them by buying up all the media and controlling the narrative. There are things we're not even allowed to discuss if it borders on tweaking Jewish sensitivities. And those whom the Jews hate are eternally excoriated as evil; like Palestinians and Germans for perpetuity, while Jewish crimes get hushed up. The biggest one being the existence of the uber-criminality of the Fed itself, and others like the Liberty and 911 respectively.

    At least in my humble opinion. ; )
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  152. CTD says:

    You know you’re on to something when people try this hard to slide the topic.

    Besides the excellent questions here, one should ask where the facility’s security camera footage and the police dashcam footage are. And why camera footage wasn’t pulled from every business in a mile radius around the facility. And generally, why the police are so incurious. You’d think if there’s any chance of a third psycho running around that you’d want to be extremely careful to interview all eyewitnesses and keep up a dragnet.

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    • Replies: @Penelope
    CTD, I thought the footage of the Loma Linda doctors' press conference looked awfully tense-- especially when the press asked to speak w the Iranian doctor who was only supposed to be there to fill the photo. The guy in charge was visibly nervous when this happpened. Looked like the Iranian hadn't been prepped. He said something about "curiosity".

    At the end even the headman fluffed his lines about how many massacre patients Loma Linda had.

    However, my overall impression is that in all of these hoaxes, the technique is to quickly involve you in controversy: Hence you take a position on WHICH shooters and forget to ask WHETHER there were shooters. You participate in the controversy over HOW the plane in the Sinai was brought down and forget to notice WHETHER it's a real crash. Odd that aircraft parts weighing tons fell from the sky w/o making contact craters-- especially the heavy engine shown. Same question about MH17 where the heavy parts landed on farmland-- conveniently located near roads where they could have been trucked in. Here's what real crash sites look like. http://killtown.911review.org/flight93/crash-comparisons.html

    Remember: Controversy is meant to focus your mind on the wrong question.

    Do you know how realistic dummies have become?
    Control of our response to what is happening to the world is exercised via deception. We must become more adept at piercing deception. Here are stunt dummies; their clothed bodies, but not their heads, look real. http://www.dappercadaver.com/categories/stunt-dummies/ http://www.dappercadaver.com/categories/poseable-dummies/

    Here is a totally lifelike head. http://www.waldomason.com/#!about2/cvq7

    Please remember that these are not real. http://www.waldomason.com/#!gallery/cox7 For the movies & for hoaxes. http://www.waldomason.com/
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  153. RobinG says:
    @Rurik

    My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.

    I’ve never once sat here and argued anything in support of the psychopathic NeoCons. Those men were evil.
     
    hmm

    yet here we have...

    Israel gets fed up and starts killing Palestinians at ratios far greater than 500:1. Maybe 1000:1. Maybe more sometimes. Of course, given that said Palestinians maintain the breeding habits of rodents, such a kill ratio becomes necessary to maintain safety in the region. And Iran is always good enough to provide reason and cover. What does Iran care?

    Israel performs a service to the greater Middle East. They kill Palestinians.

     

    http://www.unz.com/article/beyond-isis/#comment-1252795

    just an American patriot worried about uncontrolled Muslim immigration?

    or a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?

    hmm

    Is J.C. “a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?” Perhaps. But the thing is, Rurik, he doesn’t care what anyone else says. He’s a mean old bastard, and he doesn’t care who knows it.

    J.C.’s idea that, “We can’t afford to feed our own…” is absurd. We can afford not only to feed our own, but to clothe and care for them as well.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hello Robin,

    Is J.C.Is J.C. “a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?” Perhaps. Perhaps.
     
    I prefer to refer to him a ss Robin, as his "name" is a deliberate provocation as well as "his' initials.

    So as far as I can tell ss is definitely a "rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist" - to the core. Absolutely. It positively seeps out of his posts. But he also has enough experience with Americana to pull off a pretty good impersonation up to a point. It's all part of his little shtick.

    He pretends not to be able to see any connection between the atrocities Israel commits on Palestinians every day and the historic and egregious war crimes and the US is committing on Muslim countries ~with~ subsequent problems with Islam.

    he'd like us all to believe that all Muslims hate us all because we're 'white' and 'free' and exceptional Americans

    he knows it's all a lie, but there again, that's his shtick, tiresome as it is
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  154. Ron Unz says:
    @Vendetta
    What do you think the Israeli motive was? The Liberty attack fails the usual conspiracists' question of "cui bono?" Following the usual line of logic would lead to people claiming that it was a false flag attack launched by the Egyptians to destroy the US-Israeli alliance. Why would the Israelis take such an insane gamble with their country's greatest strategic asset? This took placing during the Six-Day War; it wasn't 1973 where they were actually desperate and panicking. Why do something so stupid?

    There's no question that the political aftermath of this incident was dirty politics and that the sailors were treated disgracefully. But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.

    What do you think the Israeli motive was? The Liberty attack fails the usual conspiracists’ question of “cui bono?”…But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.

    Sure, that’s a very reasonable question, and exactly why I’d originally been very doubtful it was a deliberate attack until I learned about the explicit NSA intercepts and all the other massive evidence. Over the last couple of decades there have been a scattering of major articles published in the NYT and other MSM outlets suggesting particular explanations, all of them somewhat reasonable but none of them especially compelling, so I honestly can’t say the reason. However, here’s my own speculative suggestion, which differs a bit from all of them.

    Supposedly LBJ had sent the Liberty, America’s most advanced intelligence ship, to the area to keep an eye on things and make sure the Israelis abided by the military restrictions he’d given them for their planned attack, basically he wanted to show them who was boss. So they decided to sink the American naval ship and leave no survivors in order to show him who was *really* boss, and the outcome proved that they were correct…

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hello Mr. Unz,

    I suppose if we weren't in the room when they were talking about doing it, it's a little hard to know their motive. But I've spelled out what I think it was rather exhaustively. - To get the US to crush Egypt by blaming the attack on them.

    BTW, one rather 'out there' speculation I've heard is that Johnson deliberately sent the vessel so unusually close to the coast to make it easy for Israel to sink it. (I know, I know ; )

    but when you consider how he had the jets that were scrambled and in the air on their way to assist the Liberty recalled twice and forbidden from assisting .. (this from the USS Liberty website):

    •The recall of two flights of rescue aircraft that had been launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers. After those flights were recalled, Sixth Fleet personnel listened to our calls for help as the attack continued knowing they were forbidden to come to our assistance.

    http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

    it doesn't seem so far out there does it?

    I've read that the reason for recalling the jets was to prevent from embarrassing our bestest buddy to preventing a wider war with the Soviet Union at the time.

    Anyways, it's very nice to see that you're convinced the attack was deliberate, because that is how I understand it as well. And if so, there is rather a lot of significance in that, and the following cover up.
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  155. geokat62 says:
    @Jim Christian
    Israel does what it does to exist. They can do what they want, and yeah, if they achieve high kill ratios, what do I care? Muslims shouldn't poke the Israeli lion with rockets if they don't like watching the rubble bounce. Again, why do I care? I am all in on Israeli self defense. It gets ugly. Behave, Muslims, or you will pay.

    But the U.S. isn't dropping bombs in support of the United States' existence. It's dropping bombs for...what is it we drop bombs in Syria and Iraq for? Ask Obama, he may have an answer. You certainly do not. And I'm not for THAT. You people raise Hell about NeoCons and Bush. What the Hell is driving Obama in this disaster? He's no different.

    You people raise Hell about NeoCons and Bush. What the Hell is driving Obama in this disaster? He’s no different.

    We people raise Hell about both sides of the Zionist coin: the neocon Republican side and the liberal interventionist Democrat side. There isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between them.

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  156. L.K says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    Vendetta hysterically points out the author does not understand firearms and shootouts.
    He is right.
     
    You don't need to understand the technical details of firearms to know that a young newlywed woman with a newborn baby does not abandon her baby and go off and be a terrorist commando.

    Seriously, WTF is wrong with people who cannot see that?

    J.Revusky,

    I agree with you. But my point was that when people looking into these odd terror attacks/mass shootings, such as the author of the above article, advance weak notions out of ignorance, they, even if well meaning, open themselves up to sharp criticism by cretins like vendetta.
    The likes of vendetta will then focus on these peripheral issues and then throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Regards

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  157. Rurik says:
    @Jim Christian
    Israel does what it does to exist. They can do what they want, and yeah, if they achieve high kill ratios, what do I care? Muslims shouldn't poke the Israeli lion with rockets if they don't like watching the rubble bounce. Again, why do I care? I am all in on Israeli self defense. It gets ugly. Behave, Muslims, or you will pay.

    But the U.S. isn't dropping bombs in support of the United States' existence. It's dropping bombs for...what is it we drop bombs in Syria and Iraq for? Ask Obama, he may have an answer. You certainly do not. And I'm not for THAT. You people raise Hell about NeoCons and Bush. What the Hell is driving Obama in this disaster? He's no different.

    But the U.S. isn’t dropping bombs in support of the United States’ existence. It’s dropping bombs for…what is it we drop bombs in Syria and Iraq for? Ask Obama, he may have an answer. You certainly do not.

    they are doing to Syria what they did to Libya and for the same reason. It serves Israel’s interest to do so. Especially as Israel is drilling in the Golan Heights today but it isn’t their land yet until Assad falls and then they lay claim to it.

    as I’m sure you’re well aware

    your shtick of acting like an American is rather well polished, I’ll give you that

    but there simply are no Americans that hate Palestinian’s or Muslims that much. Your bile betrays you, and you can’t keep from tossing in little clues to your identity because your ego requires you to pretend to yourself that you’re so much more clever than the rest of us. But you’re not. ; )

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    On point.
    What if J.C. is actually a self-hating Arab? By the way, there has been a very curious commotion about a special blood relationships between Kurds and Israelis in the context of creating a buffer state, Kurdistan, to allow Israel continue stealing other nations' resources:
    "The logic at play is that a Kurdish state north of Iraq will be the nucleus for a bigger Kurdish state that can later annex the Kurdish areas in Syria, Turkey and Iran."
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/20748-strategic-dimensions-of-the-relationship-between-israel-and-iraqi-kurdistan
    About Kurds: they "are culturally and linguistically closely related to the Iranian peoples and, as a result, are often themselves classified as an Iranian people.... The Kurdish languages form a subgroup of the Northwestern Iranian languages." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds
    And yet here we are, "The Genetic Bonds Between Kurds and Jews," http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts
    Here is an info on Israel's cooperation with ISIS: "... up to 800 IDF forces are operating in support of al Nusra and ISIS inside Syria, coordinating operations including artillery and air support for al Qaeda and other terrorist" groups.
    http://theinternationalreporter.org/2015/09/29/real-war-news-israeli-commandos-fight-alongside-isis-in-syria-militants-launch-major-offensive-on-syrian-forces-in-golan-heights-with-help-of-israeli-ground-forces
    Israel shows how to support ISIS and profit from it: "...most of the oil would pass between Iraq, Syria and Turkey... but even these three countries would not buy all the oil, if Israel would not buy it.” http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/55127/report-israel-biggest-buyer-oil-smuggled-from-isis-controlled-territories-middle-east/#qsj430bLLBQW1kmw.97
    In short, all that fuss about "inherently bad Arabs" and "inherently morally superior Jews" stops at a baseline.
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  158. Rurik says:
    @Vendetta
    Rurik, I am not attempting to justify, only to understand how and why it happened. In my book, this was not a friendly fire incident that can be excused as a normal "fog of war" mistake, but one brought about by extreme recklessness, incompetence, and unprofessionalism on the part of the Israeli armed forces. For which Israel should have faced a much harsher reprimand from the United States than it got. But I see no rational motive to explain why they'd have it done it intentionally. Cui Bono? They didn't.

    And there is no inconsistency when it comes to the lifeboats. As I said, that kind of pointless, malicious cruelty is hardly surprising from the Israeli armed forces if believed they were attacking Arabs.

    Are you telling me you'd be shocked at the idea that Israeli gunboats would massacre Egyptian sailors in their lifeboats? If so, I'd have to be the one now who tells you to stop being naive.

    But I see no rational motive to explain why they’d have it done it intentionally. Cui Bono? They didn’t.

    they wanted to make it look like the attack was done by Egypt. They were at war with Egypt and they wanted the US to think that Egypt had attacked the Liberty and thereby cause the US to stomp Egypt into the ground.

    Is that such a leap?

    That’s what all false flags are for. To make people go to war against an enemy who never did anything but who can be blamed for some terrible attack that can be used as a cassus belli for war and rouse an enraged public al la Pearl Harbor, or Gulf of Tonkin, or Sinking of the Maine, or Burring of the Reichstag, or if you’re a student of history, there are tones of them going back centuries. That’s simply how it’s done.

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    Were that the case, and the Israelis intending to sink the ship quickly, why send fighters armed with napalm and rockets? These are ground attack weapons that cannot sink a ship. They could have sent the same aircraft out with bombs that could have put the Liberty underwater in minutes.

    Just days before, they'd launched a massive, supremely well-coordinated air assault that wiped out the Egyptian Air Force on the ground.

    Why would they have half-assed the planning for such a risky, insane mission as attacking an American ship after all the deliberation they'd put into the larger air war?
    , @James Kabala
    Some people think that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. But to call it a false flag would mean that the Japanese never attacked Pearl Harbor at all - that actually it was done by the Americans to themselves. I think it is pretty safe to say that that is not what happened.

    The second Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened, it is true - but again, to call it a false flag would mean that the Maddox was attacked by a fellow American ship - not a theory I have ever heard advanced by anyone.
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  159. Rurik says:
    @alexander
    Rurik,

    I have researched that day. pretty well....I wrote a comment (#17) in a response to" Fnn" under one of Mr. Petras' earlier November articles " Wars, US military factions in command." that addresses the idea of a "template" or "precedent" for terror.as in the case of the USS Liberty.......I am interested in your response...


    Check it out...and let me know.

    Hey Alexander,

    you hit the nail on the head

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/wars-us-militarist-factions-in-command/#comment-1243380

    had Israel succeeded in sinking the Liberty quickly and then successfully blamed it on Egypt, the United States may well have launched a war against Egypt.

    the trillions upon trillions of dollars the United States has spent fighting it…this form of “staged attacks” and “terror fraud” has gone completely ignored ,unnoticed , unrecognized and un-investigated .

    Does anyone know why ?

    because owning the Fed has given some Jews unprecedented power in our society. They’ve been able to use all that moolah to further their interests as they see them by buying up all the media and controlling the narrative. There are things we’re not even allowed to discuss if it borders on tweaking Jewish sensitivities. And those whom the Jews hate are eternally excoriated as evil; like Palestinians and Germans for perpetuity, while Jewish crimes get hushed up. The biggest one being the existence of the uber-criminality of the Fed itself, and others like the Liberty and 911 respectively.

    At least in my humble opinion. ; )

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    • Replies: @alexander
    Dear Rurik,

    Hmmmm...

    Let's step back for a moment and discuss the Federal Reserve...or what you refer to as the Fed...and more importantly why it is there...i.e...why we have it to begin with.

    During the course of our history as a Nation (especially the last hundred years) there have been instances where the federal government has had to "spend " more money then it takes in...during such times our government creates a" deficit". The Federal Reserve was created to enable our government to continue functioning by supplying it with the" liquidity" needed to do so, and not shut down because it has "no more money."

    Whatever money our government "borrows" to pay for this "overage" in spending , we are borrowing from "our selves" at some future point in time.
    the result of this "borrowing from our future" is what we all understand as our "National Debt"
    The Federal Reserve is the vehicle through which that borrowing occurs.

    The Federal Reserve is also able to control our "monetary policy" by either raising or lowering "interest rates" to all the banks that lend us money.

    During times of extraordinary slow growth in our economy, our government will usually direct the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates, which reduces "borrowing costs" to individuals and businesses thereby stimulating spending by the consumer and by businesses that wish to expand.

    During times of extraordinary rapid growth the Federal Reserve may be directed to do the opposite, raise interest rates to increase the cost of borrowing, and tighten the liquidity into the system, thereby "slowing " the economy down.

    So Rurik, to recap,

    You need to understand that the Federal Reserve is a vehicle ( or tool ) that allows our government to continue to function in the event it spends more money than it takes in, "and" as a regulator to" help" our economy stay on a "relative" even keel , through increasing or decreasing the amount and ease of" liquidity" within the system.

    A few things you may "also" need to know....When various pundits or politicians refer to "China buying our debt"...what they are referring to is China's purchasing of our" treasury bonds".
    People often think when this occurs, our "debt" some how "magically"disappears because it is "bought" by China.

    This is not the case at all.

    If China purchases a trillion dollars worth of US treasury bonds... we do not "subtract a trillion dollars from our national debt...No ,no, not at all....the national debt stays" exactly" the same.

    What China is purchasing is more like "stock "in the United States", in the faith that we will , at some point, pay down our debt and the treasuries will hold their value.

    Getting "clarity" on these institutions, why they exist and what they do....will help you to navigate through your various "synopses" without sounding ...err....at times, ...a little foolish.

    I hope it helps.

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  160. Rurik says:
    @Ron Unz

    What do you think the Israeli motive was? The Liberty attack fails the usual conspiracists’ question of “cui bono?”...But I simply have not seen anyone offer a plausible motive for the Israelis to have launched a deliberate attack on a known U.S. vessel.
     
    Sure, that's a very reasonable question, and exactly why I'd originally been very doubtful it was a deliberate attack until I learned about the explicit NSA intercepts and all the other massive evidence. Over the last couple of decades there have been a scattering of major articles published in the NYT and other MSM outlets suggesting particular explanations, all of them somewhat reasonable but none of them especially compelling, so I honestly can't say the reason. However, here's my own speculative suggestion, which differs a bit from all of them.

    Supposedly LBJ had sent the Liberty, America's most advanced intelligence ship, to the area to keep an eye on things and make sure the Israelis abided by the military restrictions he'd given them for their planned attack, basically he wanted to show them who was boss. So they decided to sink the American naval ship and leave no survivors in order to show him who was *really* boss, and the outcome proved that they were correct...

    Hello Mr. Unz,

    I suppose if we weren’t in the room when they were talking about doing it, it’s a little hard to know their motive. But I’ve spelled out what I think it was rather exhaustively. – To get the US to crush Egypt by blaming the attack on them.

    BTW, one rather ‘out there’ speculation I’ve heard is that Johnson deliberately sent the vessel so unusually close to the coast to make it easy for Israel to sink it. (I know, I know ; )

    but when you consider how he had the jets that were scrambled and in the air on their way to assist the Liberty recalled twice and forbidden from assisting .. (this from the USS Liberty website):

    •The recall of two flights of rescue aircraft that had been launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers. After those flights were recalled, Sixth Fleet personnel listened to our calls for help as the attack continued knowing they were forbidden to come to our assistance.

    http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

    it doesn’t seem so far out there does it?

    I’ve read that the reason for recalling the jets was to prevent from embarrassing our bestest buddy to preventing a wider war with the Soviet Union at the time.

    Anyways, it’s very nice to see that you’re convinced the attack was deliberate, because that is how I understand it as well. And if so, there is rather a lot of significance in that, and the following cover up.

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  161. geokat62 says:
    @Jim Christian
    I couldn't care less about whatever policy YOU want us to follow. Your agenda is not mine. GWOT, ME, all your little talking points bore me. They aren't relevant. I've already stated my objections to these wars, from Saddam, through Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, many of these I visited years ago in the service, decades after Vietnam hammering out peace treaties, economies, technology shares and in one damned year, the entire Mediterranean coast of the African continent is wiped out and in chaos. Obama and company encouraged and supported and dabbled in the Arab Spring and God only knows the truth about Libya and Egypt. It was a disaster and it was a cherry on top of the Iraq disaster. And now we're headed for a Syrian disaster and some measure of disaster with Russia. I wasn't for ANY of it. Nor am I now. They traded one tyranny for another. Frankly, Arabs and Muslims are INCAPABLE of living in peace. You MUST have a brutal dictator where you have Muslims. It's the way it is. Sorry. That's the facts.

    So stick the Neocon stuff somewhere, wouldja? If you think Obama has his own Neocons, take it up with HIM. The world wanted a reset with Obama, they really got one. How's that working for us all at this point? Everyone at each others' throats, and we have infants running foreign policy, or likely being led by the nose.

    Frankly, screw it. Doesn't affect ME.

    Frankly, Arabs and Muslims are INCAPABLE of living in peace. You MUST have a brutal dictator where you have Muslims. It’s the way it is. Sorry. That’s the facts.

    Oh, those are the facts, are they? What about the former Yugoslavia, where you had multi-ethnic, multi-sectarian communities – Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Kosovars, Slovenians – living together within common borders? How long did that “nation” last when the strongman Tito died and the red army pulled out?

    Well, the same principle applies to these Muslims you admire so much.

    Here’s a comment I made previously to the argument that the neocons are interested in promoting democracy in the ME:

    As I asserted in a previous post, it is very important to remember the source of the Bush Doctrine of promoting democracy at the point of a gun. It was a book (The Case for Democracy) by Natan Sharansky who was a refusnik and former Interior Minister of Israel. Rather than having a genuine desire to liberate the peoples of the ME, Sharansky devised an ingenious scheme that would destabilize Israel’s remaining enemies. These countries were targeted because they were supporting the Palestinians in their struggle against Israeli oppression. The common trait among these countries was that they were led by autocrats – Hussein in Iraq, Assad in Syria, Gaddafi in Libya – or autocratic regimes – the theocracy in Iran. Since these regimes proved difficult to subvert from without, Sharansky’s brilliant idea was to topple them from within. And this would require little effort thanks to how most of these countries were artificially constructed on the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. The Sykes-Picot Agreement was based on the principle of “Divide and Rule.” So Shia, Sunni, and Kurd were placed within a common border. Good luck trying to establish a functioning democracy under these circumstances. So next time someone talks about the virtue of “spreading democracy,” remember these are really code words for spreading instability and ultimately, bringing about regime change.

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  162. Rurik says:
    @RobinG
    Is J.C. "a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?" Perhaps. But the thing is, Rurik, he doesn't care what anyone else says. He's a mean old bastard, and he doesn't care who knows it.

    J.C.'s idea that, "We can’t afford to feed our own..." is absurd. We can afford not only to feed our own, but to clothe and care for them as well.

    Hello Robin,

    Is J.C.Is J.C. “a rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist?” Perhaps. Perhaps.

    I prefer to refer to him a ss Robin, as his “name” is a deliberate provocation as well as “his’ initials.

    So as far as I can tell ss is definitely a “rabid Israeli Zionist Jewish supremacist” – to the core. Absolutely. It positively seeps out of his posts. But he also has enough experience with Americana to pull off a pretty good impersonation up to a point. It’s all part of his little shtick.

    He pretends not to be able to see any connection between the atrocities Israel commits on Palestinians every day and the historic and egregious war crimes and the US is committing on Muslim countries ~with~ subsequent problems with Islam.

    he’d like us all to believe that all Muslims hate us all because we’re ‘white’ and ‘free’ and exceptional Americans

    he knows it’s all a lie, but there again, that’s his shtick, tiresome as it is

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  163. annamaria says:
    @Rurik

    How about building seven?
     
    y0u haven't read the thread, quite a lot about building seven

    False flags are high overrated.
     
    I know guys who were in the theater when the Liberty was attacked. One of the geopolitical sea changes that have occurred recently was a little while ago, after a false flag chemical weapon attack in Syria was supposed to be that 'red line' that Assad had crossed as the pretext to bomb Syria into the stone age a al Libya. But it was amazing. First the British Parliament said no, which was incomprehensible, and then the US congress said no. This was momentous. And in both cases the motivation for telling the Fiend that they simply could not go along with its latest enormity was overwhelming popular resistance. We the people had stopped that planned adventure of the psychopaths. It was a sea change. This is why we don't have boots on the ground in Syria. It's why we don't have boots on the ground, (or at least very few) in Ukraine. It's why so far in this century they haven't been able to foment major wars other than Syria so far and some other minor dust ups.

    There is a nascent, burgeoning awakening. Slow, bovine to be sure. But like a sleeping giant that's been hibernating for generations, the proles of the West are coming out of their collective catatonia. Lies about WMD and trillions of dollars down the drain while our vets go without care. Lies about 911 that are increasingly becoming widely known. Lies about Benghazi and lies about ISIS and lies about just about everything. And so the American people are not so eager to fight the Zionist's wars for them, are they?

    This is what I'm taking about. Do I expect to change your mind or some of the other shills and stooges? Of course not. But if there are thoughtful people who might stumble onto the truth, here or there or wherever they might increasingly find it, an awakening might just transpire. The proverbial 100th monkey's eye's just might light up, and then who knows where this might lead.

    Already the GOP can't foist one of war stooges on the Republican base, who used to be known for their militaristic belligerence. But no more. Today the man who they're rallying around is saying we should talk to Putin. This is not what the ziocons want. No.

    So something is happening and it's good. We all need to keep plugging away. Pointing out that 911 was a false flag. That the lies about WMD have allowed our criminal government to send our country spinning into ruin for the benefit of the MIC and Israel. And the more people know about what Israel has done, both with the attack on the USS Liberty and the subsequent cover up, and all the American blood Israel has on its hands vis-a- vis 911, the better.

    When more people know they speak out to others they know and trust. Soon people are shamed from agitating for more war. People know it's all bullshit. But we have to keep at it. We have to keep telling the truth because there are a lot of war mongering minions of the Fiend who want us to fight their wars for them. We could be near the apex of Zio-influence in the West due to the Internet. Maybe not. Who knows. But if so, that could only be a good thing, no?

    Look at Bibi, all marginalized and Iran building nuclear bombs like so many Toyotas off the assembly line. Look at Putin grabbing up Crimea and soon Ukraine too and killing ZOGs terrorists in the Levant. Who'd a thunk it five years ago?

    We are entering a new time. A glorious time of nascent human freedom and a renaissance of enlightened consciousness. There is a light that's growing in the collective human spirit. It is saying no to tyranny and yes to understanding. It is broadening our capacity for love and a general transformational exaltation of the human spirit!

    Why just look at how someone like me is able to froth all of these truths at someone other than my dogs who just look at me with a cocked head and bemused expression. We're on a run, son, and the truth is coming out with guns blazing!

    Thank you. We do need optimism, at least as a defense against the parasitoids that have no hearts and ultimately no brains.

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  164. annamaria says:
    @Rurik

    But the U.S. isn’t dropping bombs in support of the United States’ existence. It’s dropping bombs for…what is it we drop bombs in Syria and Iraq for? Ask Obama, he may have an answer. You certainly do not.
     
    they are doing to Syria what they did to Libya and for the same reason. It serves Israel's interest to do so. Especially as Israel is drilling in the Golan Heights today but it isn't their land yet until Assad falls and then they lay claim to it.

    as I'm sure you're well aware

    your shtick of acting like an American is rather well polished, I'll give you that

    but there simply are no Americans that hate Palestinian's or Muslims that much. Your bile betrays you, and you can't keep from tossing in little clues to your identity because your ego requires you to pretend to yourself that you're so much more clever than the rest of us. But you're not. ; )

    On point.
    What if J.C. is actually a self-hating Arab? By the way, there has been a very curious commotion about a special blood relationships between Kurds and Israelis in the context of creating a buffer state, Kurdistan, to allow Israel continue stealing other nations’ resources:
    “The logic at play is that a Kurdish state north of Iraq will be the nucleus for a bigger Kurdish state that can later annex the Kurdish areas in Syria, Turkey and Iran.”

    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/20748-strategic-dimensions-of-the-relationship-between-israel-and-iraqi-kurdistan

    About Kurds: they “are culturally and linguistically closely related to the Iranian peoples and, as a result, are often themselves classified as an Iranian people…. The Kurdish languages form a subgroup of the Northwestern Iranian languages.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds
    And yet here we are, “The Genetic Bonds Between Kurds and Jews,” http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts
    Here is an info on Israel’s cooperation with ISIS: “… up to 800 IDF forces are operating in support of al Nusra and ISIS inside Syria, coordinating operations including artillery and air support for al Qaeda and other terrorist” groups.

    http://theinternationalreporter.org/2015/09/29/real-war-news-israeli-commandos-fight-alongside-isis-in-syria-militants-launch-major-offensive-on-syrian-forces-in-golan-heights-with-help-of-israeli-ground-forces

    Israel shows how to support ISIS and profit from it: “…most of the oil would pass between Iraq, Syria and Turkey… but even these three countries would not buy all the oil, if Israel would not buy it.” http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/55127/report-israel-biggest-buyer-oil-smuggled-from-isis-controlled-territories-middle-east/#qsj430bLLBQW1kmw.97
    In short, all that fuss about “inherently bad Arabs” and “inherently morally superior Jews” stops at a baseline.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    On point.
    What if J.C.
     
    well, if you say so annamarina,

    is actually a self-hating Arab?
     
    naw. I've actually known one Anna. He was Israeli, and he was the most anti-Arab I've ever met. Even more so than the Israeli Jews. He called them cockroaches. His own people! I'll never forget. But this is not ss. ss is definitely a member of the tribe.

    relationships between Kurds and Israelis in the context of creating a buffer state, Kurdistan
     
    I suspect Israel is using the Kurds as their stooges. Arming them and providing support only insofar as they advance the Israeli agenda. Once they've outlived their usefulness, Israel will toss them under the bus like a candy wrapper on a Tel Aviv street.

    I don't think the PTB will ever allow a Kurdish state because it would be too anethama to Turkey. And I don't think the PTB would allow Turkey to be carved up because Turkey is always useful as the West's reliable bitch. Just look at how they were able to get Turkey to shoot down the Russian jet. I'm reminded of that scene in Braveheart when Gibson tells the commander of the British forces to "present himself before this army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse."

    If the West told Erdogan to do this, he would literally do this. Believe me. It's a certainty.

    Turkey is so pliant to the west, that they'll never give her up. That's why there's never any talk about rebuilding the church in a new Constantinople. Why bother when the regime in Istanbul is far more dutiful to the west than any Christian could ever be.
    , @Jim Christian
    Anna Marie? You and Rurik need to go get a room. Ted Unz didn't figure on beating hearts getting together here. I figure you and Rurik are good for Motel 6, $21.95. They'll leave the light on for you. You two crazy kids.

    I had no idea you were sliming your thong over me. Of course, that is going to be a problem for Rurik. He's going to question your loyalty. Annnd, he'll be impotent. Your husband will likely prefer THAT.
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  165. Vendetta says:
    @Rurik

    But I see no rational motive to explain why they’d have it done it intentionally. Cui Bono? They didn’t.
     
    they wanted to make it look like the attack was done by Egypt. They were at war with Egypt and they wanted the US to think that Egypt had attacked the Liberty and thereby cause the US to stomp Egypt into the ground.

    Is that such a leap?

    That's what all false flags are for. To make people go to war against an enemy who never did anything but who can be blamed for some terrible attack that can be used as a cassus belli for war and rouse an enraged public al la Pearl Harbor, or Gulf of Tonkin, or Sinking of the Maine, or Burring of the Reichstag, or if you're a student of history, there are tones of them going back centuries. That's simply how it's done.

    Were that the case, and the Israelis intending to sink the ship quickly, why send fighters armed with napalm and rockets? These are ground attack weapons that cannot sink a ship. They could have sent the same aircraft out with bombs that could have put the Liberty underwater in minutes.

    Just days before, they’d launched a massive, supremely well-coordinated air assault that wiped out the Egyptian Air Force on the ground.

    Why would they have half-assed the planning for such a risky, insane mission as attacking an American ship after all the deliberation they’d put into the larger air war?

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    • Replies: @bondo
    well,

    assuming what you say is somewhat accurate,
    just shows jews must be idiots and continue to occupy palestine because of welfare and protection from uncle braying donkey.

    actually,

    the fake hebrews used what they had
    and since the uss liberty wasnt a caged 4 yr old throwing a rock,
    the fakers werent successful in their attempt to sink the ship and murder the nearly 300 crew members.

    so many govt agents and jews out tonight trying to protect lies by spreading more lies.

    dont cash those checks. already too much taxpayer's money wasted on jew projects.

    damn,

    wasnt it one-eye dayan who gave the order to "sink the liberty".

    sure was
    , @Rurik

    the Israelis intending to sink the ship quickly, why send fighters armed with napalm
     
    why indeed

    as has been established, Israeli knew this was an American ship. Why were they using napalm on Americans? Napalm is a horrific weapon. It's what they used on Dresden to burn those people alive. It's a sort of gelled gasoline that sticks to everything (everyone) and sets them ablaze. Why did the Israelis think such a weapon would be appropriate for use on American sailors? They were planning on machine gunning any survivors left in the water anyways, what's with the napalm unless just to be sadistic? And on Americans no less.

    These are ground attack weapons that cannot sink a ship.
     
    that's clearly what was intended. Here's a nice photo of the torpedo hole they shot into Liberty's hull

    http://jfktruth.com/LBJ/USSLiberty/USSLiberty.jpg

    one of the reasons they gave the commander of the Liberty a Congressional Medal of Honor (in a secret ceremony, the only of its kind before or since) is due to the heroics he and his crew displayed in keeping the ship afloat.


    Why would they have half-assed the planning for such a risky, insane mission as attacking an American ship
     
    they planned it fine. But the IDF was incompetent. They fired five torpedoes and only one hit. This from Wiki

    The torpedo boats then launched five torpedoes at the Liberty.[45] At 1235Z (2:35 local time)[43] a torpedo hit Liberty on the starboard side forward of the superstructure, creating a 40 ft (12 m) wide hole in what had been a former cargo hold converted to the ship's research spaces and killing 25 servicemen, almost all of them from the intelligence section, and wounding dozens.[23][46] It has been said the torpedo hit a major hull frame that absorbed much of the energy; crew members reported that if the torpedo had missed the frame the Liberty would have split in two. Russian linguist and U.S. Marine Corps Staff Sergeant Bryce Lockwood later commented: "I would never deny that it was God that kept the Liberty afloat!".[7] The other four torpedoes missed the ship.

    Captain McGonagle's quick thinking and defensive maneuvers were able to thwart the Israeli's treachery, but clearly they had planned for sinking the ship in minutes, as you say. If just that one torpedo would have hit somewhere else, the ship would have sunk like a rock.

    Here's a photo someone made and clearly the motivation was to blame Egypt.

    http://asheepnomore.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/uss-liberty_remember_w-texblk_lg.png
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  166. ron says: • Website
    @Anon
    If other people did the shootings, how did Farook and Malik end up being found with semi-automatic weapons in their SUV? What were those thousands of rounds for those weapons doing in their apartment? How did that pledge to the leader of ISIL end up on their Facebook page?

    They look guilty as hell to me. Go google Occam's Razor and start applying it. It'll save you strain and hassle.

    Anon. You are going on the official explanation that are not substantiated by independent sources. How can a 90 lb female carry weapons and a large amount of ammunition while wearing heavy body armour? not credible. All witnesses said the gunmen wore military clothing. One of the deceased was wearing shorts. Anyone can post on Facebook on behalf of another person. That is not a strong argument. Where were they for four hours? They should have been a 100 miles from the crime scene? I am not offering a conspiracy theory. You are offering a ”coincidence” theory which is just as bad.You need to be more critical

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  167. bondo says:
    @Vendetta
    Were that the case, and the Israelis intending to sink the ship quickly, why send fighters armed with napalm and rockets? These are ground attack weapons that cannot sink a ship. They could have sent the same aircraft out with bombs that could have put the Liberty underwater in minutes.

    Just days before, they'd launched a massive, supremely well-coordinated air assault that wiped out the Egyptian Air Force on the ground.

    Why would they have half-assed the planning for such a risky, insane mission as attacking an American ship after all the deliberation they'd put into the larger air war?

    well,

    assuming what you say is somewhat accurate,
    just shows jews must be idiots and continue to occupy palestine because of welfare and protection from uncle braying donkey.

    actually,

    the fake hebrews used what they had
    and since the uss liberty wasnt a caged 4 yr old throwing a rock,
    the fakers werent successful in their attempt to sink the ship and murder the nearly 300 crew members.

    so many govt agents and jews out tonight trying to protect lies by spreading more lies.

    dont cash those checks. already too much taxpayer’s money wasted on jew projects.

    damn,

    wasnt it one-eye dayan who gave the order to “sink the liberty”.

    sure was

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  168. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Regarding eye witness accounts, they are usually very reliable when they are general in nature. Such as three white men. Eye witness accounts are usually less reliable when you need a high level of detail. Such as telling the difference between two white men who have a similar general appearance. So I tend to believe the eyewitness accounts here.

    Keep in mind the iSteve crowd here who desperately wants the shooters to be Arab so they can advance their narrative of Arabs being terrorists so they can stop Arab immigration. And also the need to get the Dylan Roof shooter out of people’s memories. So these people are hardly unbiased.

    Regarding false flags, I can’t believe there is even any doubt that they occur. Golf Golf of Tonkin anyone? The people who yell conspiracy theorist are just shills trying to ram their version of the truth down the throats of people who are mentally weak.

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  169. jon says:
    @Karl
    >>>>> South Asians are generally darker than Middle Easterners

    Did you never see a picture of Egyptian President Sadat?

    Did you never shoot the shit with Saudi guys in a strip bar in Bahrain, or at a Saudi Navy exercise?

    Arabs are often VERY dark skinned.


    On the other hand, Huma Abedin's skin color is quite common of real ethnic Pakistanis.

    How do I know? Well, Pakistani frigates in the Gulf don't have water-makers; they have to receive potable water from allied nations. And (in real life) the Pakistani Navy Officers trust Israeli-operated distillers rather more than they do Saudi-operated ones......

    Did you never shoot the shit with Saudi guys in a strip bar in Bahrain, or at a Saudi Navy exercise?

    Hahaha, no I never did. Do you just assume that most people have had this experience?

    In any event, we have gotten sidetracked from my original point, which is simply this: if you are under attack from shooters dressed head-to-toe in black, misidentifying their race is not an unexpected occurrence, and should not be the basis for a conspiracy theory.

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  170. RobinG says:
    @Rurik

    How about building seven?
     
    y0u haven't read the thread, quite a lot about building seven

    False flags are high overrated.
     
    I know guys who were in the theater when the Liberty was attacked. One of the geopolitical sea changes that have occurred recently was a little while ago, after a false flag chemical weapon attack in Syria was supposed to be that 'red line' that Assad had crossed as the pretext to bomb Syria into the stone age a al Libya. But it was amazing. First the British Parliament said no, which was incomprehensible, and then the US congress said no. This was momentous. And in both cases the motivation for telling the Fiend that they simply could not go along with its latest enormity was overwhelming popular resistance. We the people had stopped that planned adventure of the psychopaths. It was a sea change. This is why we don't have boots on the ground in Syria. It's why we don't have boots on the ground, (or at least very few) in Ukraine. It's why so far in this century they haven't been able to foment major wars other than Syria so far and some other minor dust ups.

    There is a nascent, burgeoning awakening. Slow, bovine to be sure. But like a sleeping giant that's been hibernating for generations, the proles of the West are coming out of their collective catatonia. Lies about WMD and trillions of dollars down the drain while our vets go without care. Lies about 911 that are increasingly becoming widely known. Lies about Benghazi and lies about ISIS and lies about just about everything. And so the American people are not so eager to fight the Zionist's wars for them, are they?

    This is what I'm taking about. Do I expect to change your mind or some of the other shills and stooges? Of course not. But if there are thoughtful people who might stumble onto the truth, here or there or wherever they might increasingly find it, an awakening might just transpire. The proverbial 100th monkey's eye's just might light up, and then who knows where this might lead.

    Already the GOP can't foist one of war stooges on the Republican base, who used to be known for their militaristic belligerence. But no more. Today the man who they're rallying around is saying we should talk to Putin. This is not what the ziocons want. No.

    So something is happening and it's good. We all need to keep plugging away. Pointing out that 911 was a false flag. That the lies about WMD have allowed our criminal government to send our country spinning into ruin for the benefit of the MIC and Israel. And the more people know about what Israel has done, both with the attack on the USS Liberty and the subsequent cover up, and all the American blood Israel has on its hands vis-a- vis 911, the better.

    When more people know they speak out to others they know and trust. Soon people are shamed from agitating for more war. People know it's all bullshit. But we have to keep at it. We have to keep telling the truth because there are a lot of war mongering minions of the Fiend who want us to fight their wars for them. We could be near the apex of Zio-influence in the West due to the Internet. Maybe not. Who knows. But if so, that could only be a good thing, no?

    Look at Bibi, all marginalized and Iran building nuclear bombs like so many Toyotas off the assembly line. Look at Putin grabbing up Crimea and soon Ukraine too and killing ZOGs terrorists in the Levant. Who'd a thunk it five years ago?

    We are entering a new time. A glorious time of nascent human freedom and a renaissance of enlightened consciousness. There is a light that's growing in the collective human spirit. It is saying no to tyranny and yes to understanding. It is broadening our capacity for love and a general transformational exaltation of the human spirit!

    Why just look at how someone like me is able to froth all of these truths at someone other than my dogs who just look at me with a cocked head and bemused expression. We're on a run, son, and the truth is coming out with guns blazing!

    RURIK, YOU’VE RUN RIGHT OFF THE RAILS AGAIN!

    Why do you write this crazy stuff? Not to mention it’s wildly counter-productive. Just so you won’t sidle back with any passive-aggressive BS, I’ll be real clear.

    1. You said, “Look at Putin grabbing up Crimea and soon Ukraine too…”

    Nonsense. First, no grabbing. Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to petition Russia to accept them, and they did. This was peaceful, justified, and voluntary.

    Second, Russia does not want the Donbas, much less the whole Ukraine. Since before the Kiev coup, they’ve wanted Ukraine to be an independent, non-aligned bridge nation between Russia and Europe, and they’re sticking to it.

    2. You said, “…Iran building nuclear bombs like so many Toyotas off the assembly line.”

    More nonsense. Iran isn’t building nuclear bombs, and just this week the investigation into any history of nuclear weapons manufacture was finished, giving Iran a clean ‘bill of health’. (If you want to allege that they have a secret nuclear weapons program, you certainly can’t state that they’re cranking them out on a assembly line.)

    The whole claim that Iran ever had a nuclear weapons program was based on a laptop – passed to CIA thru German intelligence (who warned it was not credible) from the MEK (you know, the terrorist group that hates Iran) and probably originally from the Mossad. Read Gareth Porter’s book, Manufactured Crisis.

    The real question is, Rurik, what motivates you to stick this malicious garbage into the tail end of one of your long rants? (Would I find this kind of crap often if I read all your stuff?) Just when I was feeling conciliatory. As J.C. would say, Merry Christmas.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    RURIK, YOU’VE RUN RIGHT OFF THE RAILS AGAIN!
     
    It was completely obvious to me that Rurik was being ironic.
    , @Rurik

    Why do you write this crazy stuff?
     
    I was trying to be "funny" Robin

    perhaps with emphasis on 'trying'

    it was just my little way of mocking Bibi and his hysterical antics and all the other red-faced ziocons like Willy Kristol and the rest of the zio-war-pigs shouting at us all that Iran is inches from bombing us all unless we bomb them first!!!! Remember Saddam's WMD and Bibi at the UN with his idiotic cartoon?

    Sorry if that wasn't a little more obvious.
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  171. @RobinG
    RURIK, YOU'VE RUN RIGHT OFF THE RAILS AGAIN!

    Why do you write this crazy stuff? Not to mention it's wildly counter-productive. Just so you won't sidle back with any passive-aggressive BS, I'll be real clear.

    1. You said, "Look at Putin grabbing up Crimea and soon Ukraine too..."

    Nonsense. First, no grabbing. Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to petition Russia to accept them, and they did. This was peaceful, justified, and voluntary.

    Second, Russia does not want the Donbas, much less the whole Ukraine. Since before the Kiev coup, they've wanted Ukraine to be an independent, non-aligned bridge nation between Russia and Europe, and they're sticking to it.

    2. You said, "...Iran building nuclear bombs like so many Toyotas off the assembly line."

    More nonsense. Iran isn't building nuclear bombs, and just this week the investigation into any history of nuclear weapons manufacture was finished, giving Iran a clean 'bill of health'. (If you want to allege that they have a secret nuclear weapons program, you certainly can't state that they're cranking them out on a assembly line.)

    The whole claim that Iran ever had a nuclear weapons program was based on a laptop - passed to CIA thru German intelligence (who warned it was not credible) from the MEK (you know, the terrorist group that hates Iran) and probably originally from the Mossad. Read Gareth Porter's book, Manufactured Crisis.

    The real question is, Rurik, what motivates you to stick this malicious garbage into the tail end of one of your long rants? (Would I find this kind of crap often if I read all your stuff?) Just when I was feeling conciliatory. As J.C. would say, Merry Christmas.

    RURIK, YOU’VE RUN RIGHT OFF THE RAILS AGAIN!

    It was completely obvious to me that Rurik was being ironic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    More friendly fire...
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  172. alexander says:
    @Rurik
    Hey Alexander,

    you hit the nail on the head

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/wars-us-militarist-factions-in-command/#comment-1243380


    had Israel succeeded in sinking the Liberty quickly and then successfully blamed it on Egypt, the United States may well have launched a war against Egypt.
     


    the trillions upon trillions of dollars the United States has spent fighting it…this form of “staged attacks” and “terror fraud” has gone completely ignored ,unnoticed , unrecognized and un-investigated .

    Does anyone know why ?
     
    because owning the Fed has given some Jews unprecedented power in our society. They've been able to use all that moolah to further their interests as they see them by buying up all the media and controlling the narrative. There are things we're not even allowed to discuss if it borders on tweaking Jewish sensitivities. And those whom the Jews hate are eternally excoriated as evil; like Palestinians and Germans for perpetuity, while Jewish crimes get hushed up. The biggest one being the existence of the uber-criminality of the Fed itself, and others like the Liberty and 911 respectively.

    At least in my humble opinion. ; )

    Dear Rurik,

    Hmmmm…

    Let’s step back for a moment and discuss the Federal Reserve…or what you refer to as the Fed…and more importantly why it is there…i.e…why we have it to begin with.

    During the course of our history as a Nation (especially the last hundred years) there have been instances where the federal government has had to “spend ” more money then it takes in…during such times our government creates a” deficit”. The Federal Reserve was created to enable our government to continue functioning by supplying it with the” liquidity” needed to do so, and not shut down because it has “no more money.”

    Whatever money our government “borrows” to pay for this “overage” in spending , we are borrowing from “our selves” at some future point in time.
    the result of this “borrowing from our future” is what we all understand as our “National Debt”
    The Federal Reserve is the vehicle through which that borrowing occurs.

    The Federal Reserve is also able to control our “monetary policy” by either raising or lowering “interest rates” to all the banks that lend us money.

    During times of extraordinary slow growth in our economy, our government will usually direct the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates, which reduces “borrowing costs” to individuals and businesses thereby stimulating spending by the consumer and by businesses that wish to expand.

    During times of extraordinary rapid growth the Federal Reserve may be directed to do the opposite, raise interest rates to increase the cost of borrowing, and tighten the liquidity into the system, thereby “slowing ” the economy down.

    So Rurik, to recap,

    You need to understand that the Federal Reserve is a vehicle ( or tool ) that allows our government to continue to function in the event it spends more money than it takes in, “and” as a regulator to” help” our economy stay on a “relative” even keel , through increasing or decreasing the amount and ease of” liquidity” within the system.

    A few things you may “also” need to know….When various pundits or politicians refer to “China buying our debt”…what they are referring to is China’s purchasing of our” treasury bonds”.
    People often think when this occurs, our “debt” some how “magically”disappears because it is “bought” by China.

    This is not the case at all.

    If China purchases a trillion dollars worth of US treasury bonds… we do not “subtract a trillion dollars from our national debt…No ,no, not at all….the national debt stays” exactly” the same.

    What China is purchasing is more like “stock “in the United States”, in the faith that we will , at some point, pay down our debt and the treasuries will hold their value.

    Getting “clarity” on these institutions, why they exist and what they do….will help you to navigate through your various “synopses” without sounding …err….at times, …a little foolish.

    I hope it helps.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    Dear Alexander,

    Since I know you're sincere, I'm going to try to help out. Perhaps we can both learn something.

    As I see it and understand it the founders of this nation went to war with England because they didn't want to be slaves to the whims and authority of a far removed monarch whose rule was capricious and often even cruel. But that monarch was not the king of England, but rather the Bank of England.

    You see the colonies were printing their own currency, and this was anathema to the power hungry and greedy fiends at the central Bank of England - Rothschild and his evil mechanism to control and enslave the people of the world. A central bank that loans out money to governments that the people through taxes then have to pay that money back with interest.

    So that every dollar in circulation is not whole, but has a debt assigned to it, that can never be paid off, because when the dollar is issued, it's issued with debt. It's the eleventh marble that Michael Rivero talks about.

    So, anyways the colonists said we'd rather kill every last British soldier and sacrifice our lives in the process than agree to being slaves. I sympathize.

    They won, and that's why for a hundred years these United States was the greatest country the world had ever known. Because the people were free to live without a master.

    Then the Rothschild's Bank of England tried again in 1812, and again they were tossed out. Then later, when a temporary private central bank had been authorized, it was Andrew Jackson that put a dagger into the heart of that snake and kept the US free for a while longer.

    But in 1913 the fiend was resurrected. And Wilson signed our freedom and our prosperity away.

    The Fed was authorized to protect the value of the dollar and prevent the kind of massive swings in the economy that destroy people's lives. It has done the exact opposite of what it was empowered to do. It has printed so much lucre to enrich the banks and Wall Street that it has looted the value of the dollar to a tiny fraction of what it was when the Fed was authorized. It also was responsible for the Great Depression and even was directly responsible for the crash of 2008.

    Our Fed is not federal, it is privately owned and operated for the benefit of the banksters who own and profit by the usury and theft at the direct expense of all the rest of us debt slaves.

    -sigh-

    this one needs its own thread.

    I'd be happy to do this on a thread for that purpose.

    I don't want to take this one so far off the rails.

    navigate through your various “synopses”

     

    I think you mean "synapsis"

    these are the little things that people need more of

    they get lazy and weak from nonuse and grow dormant

    we all need to re-energize our synapsis from time to time

    you know I symbolically consider these conversations to be sort of like synapsis on a different scale. Just as they communicate on a small and biochemical/electrical level in our cortexes, so too these forums are like the firing of synapses of a different kind as information is passed from one dendrite (writer) to another dendrite (reader) in a kind of massive, collective consciousness.

    hmm
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  173. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    I’m not arguing for these wars. My only interest is here in the States. Our borders, and I want a stop to new immigration from the Middle East. We can’t afford to feed our own and we’re bringing in more.
     
    If you are truly concerned with feeding Americans, you should be calling for an end to the GWOT - i.e., the neocon policy of remaking the ME by regime-changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionst project to enhance the security of the jungle in the villa. These wars are draining the treasury of trillions, that's trillions with a T, which dwarfs the costs of bringing in more Muslims.

    … the jungle in the villa.

    I just realized that I wrote this a little differently than I normally do. I guess rather than providing the Israeli viewpoint, I was subconsciously channeling the Palestinian perspective.

    Read More
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  174. Rurik says:
    @Vendetta
    Were that the case, and the Israelis intending to sink the ship quickly, why send fighters armed with napalm and rockets? These are ground attack weapons that cannot sink a ship. They could have sent the same aircraft out with bombs that could have put the Liberty underwater in minutes.

    Just days before, they'd launched a massive, supremely well-coordinated air assault that wiped out the Egyptian Air Force on the ground.

    Why would they have half-assed the planning for such a risky, insane mission as attacking an American ship after all the deliberation they'd put into the larger air war?

    the Israelis intending to sink the ship quickly, why send fighters armed with napalm

    why indeed

    as has been established, Israeli knew this was an American ship. Why were they using napalm on Americans? Napalm is a horrific weapon. It’s what they used on Dresden to burn those people alive. It’s a sort of gelled gasoline that sticks to everything (everyone) and sets them ablaze. Why did the Israelis think such a weapon would be appropriate for use on American sailors? They were planning on machine gunning any survivors left in the water anyways, what’s with the napalm unless just to be sadistic? And on Americans no less.

    These are ground attack weapons that cannot sink a ship.

    that’s clearly what was intended. Here’s a nice photo of the torpedo hole they shot into Liberty’s hull

    one of the reasons they gave the commander of the Liberty a Congressional Medal of Honor (in a secret ceremony, the only of its kind before or since) is due to the heroics he and his crew displayed in keeping the ship afloat.

    Why would they have half-assed the planning for such a risky, insane mission as attacking an American ship

    they planned it fine. But the IDF was incompetent. They fired five torpedoes and only one hit. This from Wiki

    The torpedo boats then launched five torpedoes at the Liberty.[45] At 1235Z (2:35 local time)[43] a torpedo hit Liberty on the starboard side forward of the superstructure, creating a 40 ft (12 m) wide hole in what had been a former cargo hold converted to the ship’s research spaces and killing 25 servicemen, almost all of them from the intelligence section, and wounding dozens.[23][46] It has been said the torpedo hit a major hull frame that absorbed much of the energy; crew members reported that if the torpedo had missed the frame the Liberty would have split in two. Russian linguist and U.S. Marine Corps Staff Sergeant Bryce Lockwood later commented: “I would never deny that it was God that kept the Liberty afloat!”.[7] The other four torpedoes missed the ship.

    Captain McGonagle’s quick thinking and defensive maneuvers were able to thwart the Israeli’s treachery, but clearly they had planned for sinking the ship in minutes, as you say. If just that one torpedo would have hit somewhere else, the ship would have sunk like a rock.

    Here’s a photo someone made and clearly the motivation was to blame Egypt.

    Read More
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  175. Rurik says:
    @RobinG
    RURIK, YOU'VE RUN RIGHT OFF THE RAILS AGAIN!

    Why do you write this crazy stuff? Not to mention it's wildly counter-productive. Just so you won't sidle back with any passive-aggressive BS, I'll be real clear.

    1. You said, "Look at Putin grabbing up Crimea and soon Ukraine too..."

    Nonsense. First, no grabbing. Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to petition Russia to accept them, and they did. This was peaceful, justified, and voluntary.

    Second, Russia does not want the Donbas, much less the whole Ukraine. Since before the Kiev coup, they've wanted Ukraine to be an independent, non-aligned bridge nation between Russia and Europe, and they're sticking to it.

    2. You said, "...Iran building nuclear bombs like so many Toyotas off the assembly line."

    More nonsense. Iran isn't building nuclear bombs, and just this week the investigation into any history of nuclear weapons manufacture was finished, giving Iran a clean 'bill of health'. (If you want to allege that they have a secret nuclear weapons program, you certainly can't state that they're cranking them out on a assembly line.)

    The whole claim that Iran ever had a nuclear weapons program was based on a laptop - passed to CIA thru German intelligence (who warned it was not credible) from the MEK (you know, the terrorist group that hates Iran) and probably originally from the Mossad. Read Gareth Porter's book, Manufactured Crisis.

    The real question is, Rurik, what motivates you to stick this malicious garbage into the tail end of one of your long rants? (Would I find this kind of crap often if I read all your stuff?) Just when I was feeling conciliatory. As J.C. would say, Merry Christmas.

    Why do you write this crazy stuff?

    I was trying to be “funny” Robin

    perhaps with emphasis on ‘trying’

    it was just my little way of mocking Bibi and his hysterical antics and all the other red-faced ziocons like Willy Kristol and the rest of the zio-war-pigs shouting at us all that Iran is inches from bombing us all unless we bomb them first!!!! Remember Saddam’s WMD and Bibi at the UN with his idiotic cartoon?

    Sorry if that wasn’t a little more obvious.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    Psycho.
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  176. Rurik says:
    @annamaria
    On point.
    What if J.C. is actually a self-hating Arab? By the way, there has been a very curious commotion about a special blood relationships between Kurds and Israelis in the context of creating a buffer state, Kurdistan, to allow Israel continue stealing other nations' resources:
    "The logic at play is that a Kurdish state north of Iraq will be the nucleus for a bigger Kurdish state that can later annex the Kurdish areas in Syria, Turkey and Iran."
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/20748-strategic-dimensions-of-the-relationship-between-israel-and-iraqi-kurdistan
    About Kurds: they "are culturally and linguistically closely related to the Iranian peoples and, as a result, are often themselves classified as an Iranian people.... The Kurdish languages form a subgroup of the Northwestern Iranian languages." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds
    And yet here we are, "The Genetic Bonds Between Kurds and Jews," http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts
    Here is an info on Israel's cooperation with ISIS: "... up to 800 IDF forces are operating in support of al Nusra and ISIS inside Syria, coordinating operations including artillery and air support for al Qaeda and other terrorist" groups.
    http://theinternationalreporter.org/2015/09/29/real-war-news-israeli-commandos-fight-alongside-isis-in-syria-militants-launch-major-offensive-on-syrian-forces-in-golan-heights-with-help-of-israeli-ground-forces
    Israel shows how to support ISIS and profit from it: "...most of the oil would pass between Iraq, Syria and Turkey... but even these three countries would not buy all the oil, if Israel would not buy it.” http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/55127/report-israel-biggest-buyer-oil-smuggled-from-isis-controlled-territories-middle-east/#qsj430bLLBQW1kmw.97
    In short, all that fuss about "inherently bad Arabs" and "inherently morally superior Jews" stops at a baseline.

    On point.
    What if J.C.

    well, if you say so annamarina,

    is actually a self-hating Arab?

    naw. I’ve actually known one Anna. He was Israeli, and he was the most anti-Arab I’ve ever met. Even more so than the Israeli Jews. He called them cockroaches. His own people! I’ll never forget. But this is not ss. ss is definitely a member of the tribe.

    relationships between Kurds and Israelis in the context of creating a buffer state, Kurdistan

    I suspect Israel is using the Kurds as their stooges. Arming them and providing support only insofar as they advance the Israeli agenda. Once they’ve outlived their usefulness, Israel will toss them under the bus like a candy wrapper on a Tel Aviv street.

    I don’t think the PTB will ever allow a Kurdish state because it would be too anethama to Turkey. And I don’t think the PTB would allow Turkey to be carved up because Turkey is always useful as the West’s reliable bitch. Just look at how they were able to get Turkey to shoot down the Russian jet. I’m reminded of that scene in Braveheart when Gibson tells the commander of the British forces to “present himself before this army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse.”

    If the West told Erdogan to do this, he would literally do this. Believe me. It’s a certainty.

    Turkey is so pliant to the west, that they’ll never give her up. That’s why there’s never any talk about rebuilding the church in a new Constantinople. Why bother when the regime in Istanbul is far more dutiful to the west than any Christian could ever be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Turkey is so pliant to the west, that they’ll never give her up.
     
    You're still not looking at things through the proper lens... the Zionist lens, that is. It is not so much that Turkey is "so pliant to the west," as you put it, as it is Turkey's close proximity to the villa in the jungle. With a population of just under 80 million Muslims, the Zionists are determined that Turkey look west, not east. That's why they were and are the staunchest advocates for integrating Turkey into the EU.

    Exhibit A:

    In short, Turkey is heading in a good direction. It remains a shining (and rare) example in the Muslim world of a vibrant democracy with the rule of law and a thriving free-market economy. Much though Western leaders would like to turn the argument into one about Turkey, the real question is for them. Are Americans and Europeans prepared to accept Turkey for what it is: a Muslim democracy, with a different culture and diplomatic posture, but committed to economic and political liberalism? This newspaper hopes the answer is yes.

    http://www.economist.com/node/17309065?zid=307&ah=5e80419d1bc9821ebe173f4f0f060a07
     
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  177. Rurik says:
    @alexander
    Dear Rurik,

    Hmmmm...

    Let's step back for a moment and discuss the Federal Reserve...or what you refer to as the Fed...and more importantly why it is there...i.e...why we have it to begin with.

    During the course of our history as a Nation (especially the last hundred years) there have been instances where the federal government has had to "spend " more money then it takes in...during such times our government creates a" deficit". The Federal Reserve was created to enable our government to continue functioning by supplying it with the" liquidity" needed to do so, and not shut down because it has "no more money."

    Whatever money our government "borrows" to pay for this "overage" in spending , we are borrowing from "our selves" at some future point in time.
    the result of this "borrowing from our future" is what we all understand as our "National Debt"
    The Federal Reserve is the vehicle through which that borrowing occurs.

    The Federal Reserve is also able to control our "monetary policy" by either raising or lowering "interest rates" to all the banks that lend us money.

    During times of extraordinary slow growth in our economy, our government will usually direct the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates, which reduces "borrowing costs" to individuals and businesses thereby stimulating spending by the consumer and by businesses that wish to expand.

    During times of extraordinary rapid growth the Federal Reserve may be directed to do the opposite, raise interest rates to increase the cost of borrowing, and tighten the liquidity into the system, thereby "slowing " the economy down.

    So Rurik, to recap,

    You need to understand that the Federal Reserve is a vehicle ( or tool ) that allows our government to continue to function in the event it spends more money than it takes in, "and" as a regulator to" help" our economy stay on a "relative" even keel , through increasing or decreasing the amount and ease of" liquidity" within the system.

    A few things you may "also" need to know....When various pundits or politicians refer to "China buying our debt"...what they are referring to is China's purchasing of our" treasury bonds".
    People often think when this occurs, our "debt" some how "magically"disappears because it is "bought" by China.

    This is not the case at all.

    If China purchases a trillion dollars worth of US treasury bonds... we do not "subtract a trillion dollars from our national debt...No ,no, not at all....the national debt stays" exactly" the same.

    What China is purchasing is more like "stock "in the United States", in the faith that we will , at some point, pay down our debt and the treasuries will hold their value.

    Getting "clarity" on these institutions, why they exist and what they do....will help you to navigate through your various "synopses" without sounding ...err....at times, ...a little foolish.

    I hope it helps.

    Dear Alexander,

    Since I know you’re sincere, I’m going to try to help out. Perhaps we can both learn something.

    As I see it and understand it the founders of this nation went to war with England because they didn’t want to be slaves to the whims and authority of a far removed monarch whose rule was capricious and often even cruel. But that monarch was not the king of England, but rather the Bank of England.

    You see the colonies were printing their own currency, and this was anathema to the power hungry and greedy fiends at the central Bank of England – Rothschild and his evil mechanism to control and enslave the people of the world. A central bank that loans out money to governments that the people through taxes then have to pay that money back with interest.

    So that every dollar in circulation is not whole, but has a debt assigned to it, that can never be paid off, because when the dollar is issued, it’s issued with debt. It’s the eleventh marble that Michael Rivero talks about.

    So, anyways the colonists said we’d rather kill every last British soldier and sacrifice our lives in the process than agree to being slaves. I sympathize.

    They won, and that’s why for a hundred years these United States was the greatest country the world had ever known. Because the people were free to live without a master.

    Then the Rothschild’s Bank of England tried again in 1812, and again they were tossed out. Then later, when a temporary private central bank had been authorized, it was Andrew Jackson that put a dagger into the heart of that snake and kept the US free for a while longer.

    But in 1913 the fiend was resurrected. And Wilson signed our freedom and our prosperity away.

    The Fed was authorized to protect the value of the dollar and prevent the kind of massive swings in the economy that destroy people’s lives. It has done the exact opposite of what it was empowered to do. It has printed so much lucre to enrich the banks and Wall Street that it has looted the value of the dollar to a tiny fraction of what it was when the Fed was authorized. It also was responsible for the Great Depression and even was directly responsible for the crash of 2008.

    Our Fed is not federal, it is privately owned and operated for the benefit of the banksters who own and profit by the usury and theft at the direct expense of all the rest of us debt slaves.

    -sigh-

    this one needs its own thread.

    I’d be happy to do this on a thread for that purpose.

    I don’t want to take this one so far off the rails.

    navigate through your various “synopses”

    I think you mean “synapsis”

    these are the little things that people need more of

    they get lazy and weak from nonuse and grow dormant

    we all need to re-energize our synapsis from time to time

    you know I symbolically consider these conversations to be sort of like synapsis on a different scale. Just as they communicate on a small and biochemical/electrical level in our cortexes, so too these forums are like the firing of synapses of a different kind as information is passed from one dendrite (writer) to another dendrite (reader) in a kind of massive, collective consciousness.

    hmm

    Read More
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  178. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    On point.
    What if J.C.
     
    well, if you say so annamarina,

    is actually a self-hating Arab?
     
    naw. I've actually known one Anna. He was Israeli, and he was the most anti-Arab I've ever met. Even more so than the Israeli Jews. He called them cockroaches. His own people! I'll never forget. But this is not ss. ss is definitely a member of the tribe.

    relationships between Kurds and Israelis in the context of creating a buffer state, Kurdistan
     
    I suspect Israel is using the Kurds as their stooges. Arming them and providing support only insofar as they advance the Israeli agenda. Once they've outlived their usefulness, Israel will toss them under the bus like a candy wrapper on a Tel Aviv street.

    I don't think the PTB will ever allow a Kurdish state because it would be too anethama to Turkey. And I don't think the PTB would allow Turkey to be carved up because Turkey is always useful as the West's reliable bitch. Just look at how they were able to get Turkey to shoot down the Russian jet. I'm reminded of that scene in Braveheart when Gibson tells the commander of the British forces to "present himself before this army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse."

    If the West told Erdogan to do this, he would literally do this. Believe me. It's a certainty.

    Turkey is so pliant to the west, that they'll never give her up. That's why there's never any talk about rebuilding the church in a new Constantinople. Why bother when the regime in Istanbul is far more dutiful to the west than any Christian could ever be.

    Turkey is so pliant to the west, that they’ll never give her up.

    You’re still not looking at things through the proper lens… the Zionist lens, that is. It is not so much that Turkey is “so pliant to the west,” as you put it, as it is Turkey’s close proximity to the villa in the jungle. With a population of just under 80 million Muslims, the Zionists are determined that Turkey look west, not east. That’s why they were and are the staunchest advocates for integrating Turkey into the EU.

    Exhibit A:

    In short, Turkey is heading in a good direction. It remains a shining (and rare) example in the Muslim world of a vibrant democracy with the rule of law and a thriving free-market economy. Much though Western leaders would like to turn the argument into one about Turkey, the real question is for them. Are Americans and Europeans prepared to accept Turkey for what it is: a Muslim democracy, with a different culture and diplomatic posture, but committed to economic and political liberalism? This newspaper hopes the answer is yes.

    http://www.economist.com/node/17309065?zid=307&ah=5e80419d1bc9821ebe173f4f0f060a07

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    Exhibit B:

    It is to be hoped that an Ankara spurned by the EU would continue down the path of democratic, secular development -as well as alignment with the West, the US, and Israel-for the greater good those policies can bring its own people. Prodding and increased support from Washington will be important to keeping Turkey on that path. In a country where growing numbers see themselves as non-European and favor Islamism, trying to be "European without Europe" may be too difficult a task for the beleaguered Turkish establishment to sustain on its own.

    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/turkeys-fading-european-dream

     

    , @Rurik

    That’s why they were and are the staunchest advocates for integrating Turkey into the EU.
     
    the Zionists don't just want Turkey in the EU, they want every non-Western man, woman and child to flood into Europe and especially Germany as fast as it's humanly possible to achieve the final solution to the problem of Nazis. For the zionists, Germans will always be Nazis, even if they're temporally dormant Nazis. Same for all white people. We're all just Nazis waiting for someone like Trump/Hitler to close the border and slow down the final solution.

    if you check them out, all uber-zionists who're rabidly demanding the ethinic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs are also out of the other side of their hypocritical faces demanding open borders for the West. Sheldon Adelson for instance. The neocons. It is a two step program. Racial purity for Jews, racial assimilation into a brown morass for the mongrel slave race.

    Race is everything, and every race that does not keep its blood from being mixed will perish. . . Language and religion do not determine a race–blood determines it.”
    —British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli

    their intention is for the white race to perish and for the chosen to lord it over the slaves races for perpetuity

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_rj_HmrBL8

    if we're 'worthy' that is

    it is written
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  179. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    Turkey is so pliant to the west, that they’ll never give her up.
     
    You're still not looking at things through the proper lens... the Zionist lens, that is. It is not so much that Turkey is "so pliant to the west," as you put it, as it is Turkey's close proximity to the villa in the jungle. With a population of just under 80 million Muslims, the Zionists are determined that Turkey look west, not east. That's why they were and are the staunchest advocates for integrating Turkey into the EU.

    Exhibit A:

    In short, Turkey is heading in a good direction. It remains a shining (and rare) example in the Muslim world of a vibrant democracy with the rule of law and a thriving free-market economy. Much though Western leaders would like to turn the argument into one about Turkey, the real question is for them. Are Americans and Europeans prepared to accept Turkey for what it is: a Muslim democracy, with a different culture and diplomatic posture, but committed to economic and political liberalism? This newspaper hopes the answer is yes.

    http://www.economist.com/node/17309065?zid=307&ah=5e80419d1bc9821ebe173f4f0f060a07
     

    Exhibit B:

    It is to be hoped that an Ankara spurned by the EU would continue down the path of democratic, secular development -as well as alignment with the West, the US, and Israel-for the greater good those policies can bring its own people. Prodding and increased support from Washington will be important to keeping Turkey on that path. In a country where growing numbers see themselves as non-European and favor Islamism, trying to be “European without Europe” may be too difficult a task for the beleaguered Turkish establishment to sustain on its own.

    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/turkeys-fading-european-dream

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  180. @Rurik

    But I see no rational motive to explain why they’d have it done it intentionally. Cui Bono? They didn’t.
     
    they wanted to make it look like the attack was done by Egypt. They were at war with Egypt and they wanted the US to think that Egypt had attacked the Liberty and thereby cause the US to stomp Egypt into the ground.

    Is that such a leap?

    That's what all false flags are for. To make people go to war against an enemy who never did anything but who can be blamed for some terrible attack that can be used as a cassus belli for war and rouse an enraged public al la Pearl Harbor, or Gulf of Tonkin, or Sinking of the Maine, or Burring of the Reichstag, or if you're a student of history, there are tones of them going back centuries. That's simply how it's done.

    Some people think that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. But to call it a false flag would mean that the Japanese never attacked Pearl Harbor at all – that actually it was done by the Americans to themselves. I think it is pretty safe to say that that is not what happened.

    The second Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened, it is true – but again, to call it a false flag would mean that the Maddox was attacked by a fellow American ship – not a theory I have ever heard advanced by anyone.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. But to call it a false flag
     
    I can see how I wasn't clear about that

    a cassus belli for war and rouse an enraged public al la Pearl Harbor, or Gulf of Tonkin, or Sinking of the Maine, or Burring of the Reichstag, or if you’re a student of history, there are tones of them going back centuries.
     
    I was referring to Pearl Harbor more specifically as a cassus belli for war per se

    not as a false flag, which it obviously wasn't

    but as you mention, FDR knew the attack was going to happen, and didn't warn Hawaii's commanders because these evil men always want war. Even when they're elected to keep us out of war, like Wilson and FDR and even George W. Bush who I voted for in his first election because he said specifically that he wasn't a nation builder, and I was pissed at Clinton for illegally bombing Serbia.

    But these scum always want war.

    that was the point I was trying to convey, but I see how I wasn't clear on that

    however, for what it's worth, the "new Pearl Harbor" type of "catalyzing event" was absolutely a false flag

    for the record
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  181. @Rurik

    Why do you write this crazy stuff?
     
    I was trying to be "funny" Robin

    perhaps with emphasis on 'trying'

    it was just my little way of mocking Bibi and his hysterical antics and all the other red-faced ziocons like Willy Kristol and the rest of the zio-war-pigs shouting at us all that Iran is inches from bombing us all unless we bomb them first!!!! Remember Saddam's WMD and Bibi at the UN with his idiotic cartoon?

    Sorry if that wasn't a little more obvious.

    Psycho.

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    "Psycho."

    Who, Bibi or Kristol?
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  182. @annamaria
    On point.
    What if J.C. is actually a self-hating Arab? By the way, there has been a very curious commotion about a special blood relationships between Kurds and Israelis in the context of creating a buffer state, Kurdistan, to allow Israel continue stealing other nations' resources:
    "The logic at play is that a Kurdish state north of Iraq will be the nucleus for a bigger Kurdish state that can later annex the Kurdish areas in Syria, Turkey and Iran."
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/20748-strategic-dimensions-of-the-relationship-between-israel-and-iraqi-kurdistan
    About Kurds: they "are culturally and linguistically closely related to the Iranian peoples and, as a result, are often themselves classified as an Iranian people.... The Kurdish languages form a subgroup of the Northwestern Iranian languages." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds
    And yet here we are, "The Genetic Bonds Between Kurds and Jews," http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts
    Here is an info on Israel's cooperation with ISIS: "... up to 800 IDF forces are operating in support of al Nusra and ISIS inside Syria, coordinating operations including artillery and air support for al Qaeda and other terrorist" groups.
    http://theinternationalreporter.org/2015/09/29/real-war-news-israeli-commandos-fight-alongside-isis-in-syria-militants-launch-major-offensive-on-syrian-forces-in-golan-heights-with-help-of-israeli-ground-forces
    Israel shows how to support ISIS and profit from it: "...most of the oil would pass between Iraq, Syria and Turkey... but even these three countries would not buy all the oil, if Israel would not buy it.” http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/55127/report-israel-biggest-buyer-oil-smuggled-from-isis-controlled-territories-middle-east/#qsj430bLLBQW1kmw.97
    In short, all that fuss about "inherently bad Arabs" and "inherently morally superior Jews" stops at a baseline.

    Anna Marie? You and Rurik need to go get a room. Ted Unz didn’t figure on beating hearts getting together here. I figure you and Rurik are good for Motel 6, $21.95. They’ll leave the light on for you. You two crazy kids.

    I had no idea you were sliming your thong over me. Of course, that is going to be a problem for Rurik. He’s going to question your loyalty. Annnd, he’ll be impotent. Your husband will likely prefer THAT.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    Ted Unz
     
    hey ss,

    the gentleman's name who provides this wonderful site and oasis from the wastelands of mind numbing mendacity is Ron Unz
    , @annamaria
    No more questions and no more comments.
    , @Mark Green
    'Jim Christian' (is that really your name?). 'Christian'. How ironic. Your rhetoric sounds like it was scripted in Israel.

    Why do you hate Muslims so? After all, it's Zio-Washington that has initiated most of the violence in that region. When you count the bodies in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan (and even tally the American victims of 911) the kill-ratio favors us 'good guys' by about 1000 to one. Isn't that enough?

    Why aren't you just a little bit cynical about (and a bit more critical) of Zio-Washington's trigger-happy policies in the Middle East? After all, our glorious plans haven't gone very well. Might not negotiated, political solutions suit America's interests best?

    Why are you so hell-bent on supporting Zionist-friendly wars of aggression?

    And why are you committed to rejecting the evidence-rich hypothesis of a deliberate, Israeli sneak attack on the USS Liberty?

    After all, the surviving crew members of the Liberty are convinced that Israel's assault was no accident. Does that not give you pause?--or are all the Liberty survivors all just a bunch of pathetic Jew haters?

    It's not as if Israel doesn't (1) commit espionage against the US and (2) still get virtually everything that it wants from Washington. Is this so-called 'special relationship' not lopsided and unhealthy?

    Does not a relationship of this kind provide Israel with a virtual 'license to kill'? The evidence suggests so.

    So again: why do you love the Zionists so blindly and detest Muslims so intensely? Your political emotions seem unbalanced.

    Until Zio-Washington wiped out Libya and Iraq (and destabilized Syria), there was not only no Muslim 'refugee crisis' whatsoever, but Iraq and Libya were both intact, stable and rising powers. Now they're disaster zones. And one million people are dead. Any regrets?

    Of equal importance: we Christians are implored to seek peace and show compassion. So what fills your heart with such venom? Why have you no compassion for all the innocents who have suffered at our hands?

    Why do you seek more destruction, more enmity--not less?

    After all, no Arab state could harm the US even if it wanted to. Yet you still favor political violence.

    Are you channeling Israel's anxieties and aspirations? You seem to be.

    Why do you have such hatred for Rurik and critics of America's militant, pro-Zionist status quo? Have not Zio-Washington's policies and wars been a disaster for millions?

    Therefore, I wonder why you do you not show any interest in cutting a deal (between Israel and Palestine), deescalating regional Mideast tensions, and achieving 'peace and prosperity' without bloodshed?

    Shouldn't that humane objective be standard US policy?

    You, 'Mr. Christian', have the odor of an Israeli troll. But even if you're not an Israeli, you are still a violence-loving scumbag.

    Why should Americans care one way or another if Israel gets to keep ALL of Jerusalem or maintain its nuclear monopoly? BFD. That's their problem.

    Most Americans couldn't care less about Israel. Let the Jewish supremacists fight their own stinking wars.

    In a normal (Zionist-free) world, Iran's acquisition of a nuclear deterrent should hold about as much interest to the average American as does Pakistan's ongoing nuclear 'balance of terror' with India.

    But undue Zionist influence in America and Europe has cemented an artificial 'alliance' that serves one party only. This is a colossal 'top-down' fraud. America and the West are being used. I recommend Alison Weir's brilliant book, 'Against our Better Judgement', for those out there who want to better understand how militant Israel embedded itself into the Western world. Israel's plan and execution was nothing short of diabolical.

    So let's be clear: this unnatural condition is the product of corrupt scheming combined with wholesale duplicity at the very highest levels. Zionism has hardened into an abject expression of racial fanaticism and uncompromising political ruthlessness. This unconditional 'alliance' has caused immeasurable harm.

    We Americans actually have no dog in this fight. But you, Mr. Christian, seem to. You openly favor a policy of Muslim eradication. Thanks for sharing. Again, you come across like a hardcore Israeli.

    What if Americans refuse to care about your shitty little country way over yonder? Should it be a crime? You act as if it should be. But why shouldn't America be neutral?

    Have not the Israelis and their lobbyists drained our treasury and compromised America's long-term interests in the Middle East?

    Have they also not undermined our nation's sovereignty?

    Undeniably, YES. Zionism has become a plague.

    It's also well-known that no other country commits as much espionage against the US as does 'friendly' Israel. Curious, no? Even Reagan complained about this. And conditions in Washington have only since 'improved' for Israel in recent decades. This is more bad news.

    Indeed, the Israelis have totally penetrated our government and even our intelligence services.

    How about Zio-Washington's war on Iraq? Israel's numerous US-based lobbies uniformly supported (and pushed for) Washington's 2003 annihilation of that secular country. Do you think it was a smart move and a wise investment? So far it's cost America nearly two trillion dollars.

    Why do you detest the victims of Zio-American aggression, but not the architects?

    Lastly, if a compelling case could be made that invading Israel and killing one million Jews was in America's long-term political interest, would you support such a war?

    Your presence on this site is a small-scale abomination; not unlike the larger, parasitic relationship enjoyed by your favorite country inside of Washington. Please slither away.

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  183. Rurik says:
    @James Kabala
    Some people think that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. But to call it a false flag would mean that the Japanese never attacked Pearl Harbor at all - that actually it was done by the Americans to themselves. I think it is pretty safe to say that that is not what happened.

    The second Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened, it is true - but again, to call it a false flag would mean that the Maddox was attacked by a fellow American ship - not a theory I have ever heard advanced by anyone.

    FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. But to call it a false flag

    I can see how I wasn’t clear about that

    a cassus belli for war and rouse an enraged public al la Pearl Harbor, or Gulf of Tonkin, or Sinking of the Maine, or Burring of the Reichstag, or if you’re a student of history, there are tones of them going back centuries.

    I was referring to Pearl Harbor more specifically as a cassus belli for war per se

    not as a false flag, which it obviously wasn’t

    but as you mention, FDR knew the attack was going to happen, and didn’t warn Hawaii’s commanders because these evil men always want war. Even when they’re elected to keep us out of war, like Wilson and FDR and even George W. Bush who I voted for in his first election because he said specifically that he wasn’t a nation builder, and I was pissed at Clinton for illegally bombing Serbia.

    But these scum always want war.

    that was the point I was trying to convey, but I see how I wasn’t clear on that

    however, for what it’s worth, the “new Pearl Harbor” type of “catalyzing event” was absolutely a false flag

    for the record

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  184. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    Turkey is so pliant to the west, that they’ll never give her up.
     
    You're still not looking at things through the proper lens... the Zionist lens, that is. It is not so much that Turkey is "so pliant to the west," as you put it, as it is Turkey's close proximity to the villa in the jungle. With a population of just under 80 million Muslims, the Zionists are determined that Turkey look west, not east. That's why they were and are the staunchest advocates for integrating Turkey into the EU.

    Exhibit A:

    In short, Turkey is heading in a good direction. It remains a shining (and rare) example in the Muslim world of a vibrant democracy with the rule of law and a thriving free-market economy. Much though Western leaders would like to turn the argument into one about Turkey, the real question is for them. Are Americans and Europeans prepared to accept Turkey for what it is: a Muslim democracy, with a different culture and diplomatic posture, but committed to economic and political liberalism? This newspaper hopes the answer is yes.

    http://www.economist.com/node/17309065?zid=307&ah=5e80419d1bc9821ebe173f4f0f060a07
     

    That’s why they were and are the staunchest advocates for integrating Turkey into the EU.

    the Zionists don’t just want Turkey in the EU, they want every non-Western man, woman and child to flood into Europe and especially Germany as fast as it’s humanly possible to achieve the final solution to the problem of Nazis. For the zionists, Germans will always be Nazis, even if they’re temporally dormant Nazis. Same for all white people. We’re all just Nazis waiting for someone like Trump/Hitler to close the border and slow down the final solution.

    if you check them out, all uber-zionists who’re rabidly demanding the ethinic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs are also out of the other side of their hypocritical faces demanding open borders for the West. Sheldon Adelson for instance. The neocons. It is a two step program. Racial purity for Jews, racial assimilation into a brown morass for the mongrel slave race.

    Race is everything, and every race that does not keep its blood from being mixed will perish. . . Language and religion do not determine a race–blood determines it.”
    —British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli

    their intention is for the white race to perish and for the chosen to lord it over the slaves races for perpetuity

    if we’re ‘worthy’ that is

    it is written

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  185. Rurik says:
    @Jim Christian
    Anna Marie? You and Rurik need to go get a room. Ted Unz didn't figure on beating hearts getting together here. I figure you and Rurik are good for Motel 6, $21.95. They'll leave the light on for you. You two crazy kids.

    I had no idea you were sliming your thong over me. Of course, that is going to be a problem for Rurik. He's going to question your loyalty. Annnd, he'll be impotent. Your husband will likely prefer THAT.

    Ted Unz

    hey ss,

    the gentleman’s name who provides this wonderful site and oasis from the wastelands of mind numbing mendacity is Ron Unz

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  186. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Wow. Can’t believe how completely saturated this comment section is with Hasbara.

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  187. RobinG says:
    @Jim Christian
    Psycho.

    “Psycho.”

    Who, Bibi or Kristol?

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    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    That was addressed to you, Robin. You silly bitch.
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  188. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian
    Anna Marie? You and Rurik need to go get a room. Ted Unz didn't figure on beating hearts getting together here. I figure you and Rurik are good for Motel 6, $21.95. They'll leave the light on for you. You two crazy kids.

    I had no idea you were sliming your thong over me. Of course, that is going to be a problem for Rurik. He's going to question your loyalty. Annnd, he'll be impotent. Your husband will likely prefer THAT.

    No more questions and no more comments.

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    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    You aren't rational, so where peanuts and bananas don't feed the monkeys and yard apes, I tend to leave the Zoo.

    Or insane asylum. That's your contribution to Unz, AnnaMarie.
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  189. Vendetta says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    RURIK, YOU’VE RUN RIGHT OFF THE RAILS AGAIN!
     
    It was completely obvious to me that Rurik was being ironic.

    More friendly fire…

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  190. vinteuil says:

    Can we look forward to a front page post by Lyndon Larouche, sometime soon?

    Or, better yet, David Icke?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I'd rather be a Larouchite or an Icke follower than be gay.
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  191. Mr. Anon says:
    @Truth
    "oh lord, really?
    you’re trying to make a case that building seven fell at free-fall speed directly into its basement because of some office fires?"

    You have to understand, Bro, Mr. Anon is obsessed with driving a water-powered car.

    “You have to understand, Bro, Mr. Anon is obsessed with driving a water-powered car.”

    You are the guy who thinks there is such a thing as a water-fueled car, shit-for-brains.

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  192. Mr. Anon says:
    @Rurik
    oh lord, really?

    you're trying to make a case that building seven fell at free-fall speed directly into its basement because of some office fires?

    these building burned like infernos for hours without plopping into their basements

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

    if you want to know what firefighters said on 911, google "keep an eye on that building it's coming down ..."

    here's one, I did it for you

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHtvN26yPvY

    if you work in an office building and a room catches on fire and spreads to another room, how many people are going to run out of the building immediately in fear that the entire building is going to implode?

    if there were any fear of such a thing ever happening, as it's never happened in the history of steel frame buildings, either before or since 911, there would be massive efforts to reinforce all the steel frame sky scrapers and insure that all the steel doesn't magically vaporize into nice lengths for easy transport to waiting ships to China. - To be melted down without forensic studies to determine just how this impossible engineering miracle of physics transpired. But how many building have been thus checked out?

    None?

    But surely they're all unsafe!

    If they can all just plop like a rock into their footprint at some superficial damage to their facade, then surly efforts are being made in every city in the world to re-engineer these building, no? Why not?

    Was 911 a magical day when news agencies and fire dept.'s were all magically able to predict an impossible event before it happened but it we can all rest assured that it will never happen again, because 911 was just a magical day?

    Eh?

    You have “Truth” as a follower, so – congratulaitons! – you’ve really arrived as a gullible nitwit.

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  193. Mr. Anon says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    the reason alot of the theories regarding those building having alot of followers is because those buildings just collapsed waaaaay too neatly. about as good as controlled demolitions.

    don't blame people from having doubts. never relegate them to conspiracy nuts, it is completely reasonable from all the available videos.

    “the reason alot of the theories regarding those building having alot of followers is because those buildings just collapsed waaaaay too neatly. about as good as controlled demolitions.”

    No, they didn’t. People base thier (ignorant and baseless) opinion on one YouTube video taken from one side. You know why buildings mostly fall straight down? Becuase that’s the way the force due to gravity points.

    “don’t blame people from having doubts. never relegate them to conspiracy nuts, it is completely reasonable from all the available videos.”

    They are conspiracy nuts. What else am I to make of them?

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    after snowden? I believe the so called conspiracy nuts more than our govt.
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  194. Mark Green says: • Website
    @Jim Christian
    Anna Marie? You and Rurik need to go get a room. Ted Unz didn't figure on beating hearts getting together here. I figure you and Rurik are good for Motel 6, $21.95. They'll leave the light on for you. You two crazy kids.

    I had no idea you were sliming your thong over me. Of course, that is going to be a problem for Rurik. He's going to question your loyalty. Annnd, he'll be impotent. Your husband will likely prefer THAT.

    ‘Jim Christian’ (is that really your name?). ‘Christian’. How ironic. Your rhetoric sounds like it was scripted in Israel.

    Why do you hate Muslims so? After all, it’s Zio-Washington that has initiated most of the violence in that region. When you count the bodies in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan (and even tally the American victims of 911) the kill-ratio favors us ‘good guys’ by about 1000 to one. Isn’t that enough?

    Why aren’t you just a little bit cynical about (and a bit more critical) of Zio-Washington’s trigger-happy policies in the Middle East? After all, our glorious plans haven’t gone very well. Might not negotiated, political solutions suit America’s interests best?

    Why are you so hell-bent on supporting Zionist-friendly wars of aggression?

    And why are you committed to rejecting the evidence-rich hypothesis of a deliberate, Israeli sneak attack on the USS Liberty?

    After all, the surviving crew members of the Liberty are convinced that Israel’s assault was no accident. Does that not give you pause?–or are all the Liberty survivors all just a bunch of pathetic Jew haters?

    It’s not as if Israel doesn’t (1) commit espionage against the US and (2) still get virtually everything that it wants from Washington. Is this so-called ‘special relationship’ not lopsided and unhealthy?

    Does not a relationship of this kind provide Israel with a virtual ‘license to kill’? The evidence suggests so.

    So again: why do you love the Zionists so blindly and detest Muslims so intensely? Your political emotions seem unbalanced.

    Until Zio-Washington wiped out Libya and Iraq (and destabilized Syria), there was not only no Muslim ‘refugee crisis’ whatsoever, but Iraq and Libya were both intact, stable and rising powers. Now they’re disaster zones. And one million people are dead. Any regrets?

    Of equal importance: we Christians are implored to seek peace and show compassion. So what fills your heart with such venom? Why have you no compassion for all the innocents who have suffered at our hands?

    Why do you seek more destruction, more enmity–not less?

    After all, no Arab state could harm the US even if it wanted to. Yet you still favor political violence.

    Are you channeling Israel’s anxieties and aspirations? You seem to be.

    Why do you have such hatred for Rurik and critics of America’s militant, pro-Zionist status quo? Have not Zio-Washington’s policies and wars been a disaster for millions?

    Therefore, I wonder why you do you not show any interest in cutting a deal (between Israel and Palestine), deescalating regional Mideast tensions, and achieving ‘peace and prosperity’ without bloodshed?

    Shouldn’t that humane objective be standard US policy?

    You, ‘Mr. Christian’, have the odor of an Israeli troll. But even if you’re not an Israeli, you are still a violence-loving scumbag.

    Why should Americans care one way or another if Israel gets to keep ALL of Jerusalem or maintain its nuclear monopoly? BFD. That’s their problem.

    Most Americans couldn’t care less about Israel. Let the Jewish supremacists fight their own stinking wars.

    In a normal (Zionist-free) world, Iran’s acquisition of a nuclear deterrent should hold about as much interest to the average American as does Pakistan’s ongoing nuclear ‘balance of terror’ with India.

    But undue Zionist influence in America and Europe has cemented an artificial ‘alliance’ that serves one party only. This is a colossal ‘top-down’ fraud. America and the West are being used. I recommend Alison Weir’s brilliant book, ‘Against our Better Judgement’, for those out there who want to better understand how militant Israel embedded itself into the Western world. Israel’s plan and execution was nothing short of diabolical.

    So let’s be clear: this unnatural condition is the product of corrupt scheming combined with wholesale duplicity at the very highest levels. Zionism has hardened into an abject expression of racial fanaticism and uncompromising political ruthlessness. This unconditional ‘alliance’ has caused immeasurable harm.

    We Americans actually have no dog in this fight. But you, Mr. Christian, seem to. You openly favor a policy of Muslim eradication. Thanks for sharing. Again, you come across like a hardcore Israeli.

    What if Americans refuse to care about your shitty little country way over yonder? Should it be a crime? You act as if it should be. But why shouldn’t America be neutral?

    Have not the Israelis and their lobbyists drained our treasury and compromised America’s long-term interests in the Middle East?

    Have they also not undermined our nation’s sovereignty?

    Undeniably, YES. Zionism has become a plague.

    It’s also well-known that no other country commits as much espionage against the US as does ‘friendly’ Israel. Curious, no? Even Reagan complained about this. And conditions in Washington have only since ‘improved’ for Israel in recent decades. This is more bad news.

    Indeed, the Israelis have totally penetrated our government and even our intelligence services.

    How about Zio-Washington’s war on Iraq? Israel’s numerous US-based lobbies uniformly supported (and pushed for) Washington’s 2003 annihilation of that secular country. Do you think it was a smart move and a wise investment? So far it’s cost America nearly two trillion dollars.

    Why do you detest the victims of Zio-American aggression, but not the architects?

    Lastly, if a compelling case could be made that invading Israel and killing one million Jews was in America’s long-term political interest, would you support such a war?

    Your presence on this site is a small-scale abomination; not unlike the larger, parasitic relationship enjoyed by your favorite country inside of Washington. Please slither away.

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    Once again, extremely well put.

    btw - if you keep this up, Mark, I'll have no choice but to add you to my free coffee list in DC, as a spot has recently been vacated... sorry, Fran.
    , @alexander
    Perhaps we should consider where we will be, by the year 2018 ?


    Will our governments profligate spending on Wars of aggression against nations that never attacked us...thrust our (already) obscene national debt over the 20 trillion dollar mark.?

    Will Israel have finally succeeded in exterminating Palestine and the Palestinian people,in much the same way Hitler exterminated the Jewish people ?

    Will the New York Times , The Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal all unanimously support an AIPAC sponsored bill before congress making it a" criminal offense" to be an "honest eyewitness"at any "Terror event attributed to Muslims "?

    Will the US government spend 200 billion dollars to build a "giant wall" around the United States ?
    Will it be named ......... "The Wall of Heroes" ?

    Will the no-bid contract to build it , mysteriously go to the Israeli construction companies that built the "apartheid wall/ separation fence" in Israel ?...

    Will the "actual" cost to build it be 50 billion dollars, resulting in a "150 billion" dollar net profit for Israel, and 150 billion dollars in additional debt for the USA ?

    Will the Office of Accountability that points out what a big rip off this is, be mysteriously shut down due to "budget tightening '?

    Will there be another bizarre"terrorist event on US shores sometime in 2017 ....this time attributed to Hezbollah?

    Will that be the catalyst for the US spending another 3 to 4 trillion dollars on a new " Heroic "War with the "terror sponsor "Iran ?

    After the war ensues,will the Israeli company that built" the Wall of Heroes" be re- contracted to build it even higher ?

    At twice the cost,....... because its so high ?

    Will all good Americans who believe that " fraud is evil' become really really poor and destitute ?

    Will all those who believe" Fraud is good" become really rich and powerful?


    Will the last known survivor of the USS Liberty be "finally" granted a "prime time interview" with Barbara Walters......

    Only to be mysteriously run over by a "white van owned by a moving company" while crossing the street on the way to the station ?


    I guess only time will tell.
    , @Jim Christian
    Conspiracies, conspiracies. Muslim lobby all over the editorials/articles and reports' comments sections. Or, in the case of articles critical of the Muslim POTUS (His Father was Muslim, HE is Muslim, I believe in respecting tradition), White House Communications interns, slanting, stirring, trolling in the Post, the NYT, the Chicago Tribune, here, I suspect. I especially love the Jew Haters and their long, rambling and insane diatribes against Israel, their Muslim bent showing in their lousy writing, grammar and accented sentence structure. All to silence, obfuscate and obscure and defend exactly what it is that Muslims do, all of it evil, nothing beneficial to mankind. From Muslims, no great inventions, no feats of agriculture, a complete inability to make use of modern technology of the basest sort except tools of murder and destruction, dependent on Americans and Jews and Germans and Europeans for their every necessity and luxury alike.

    Hate the Muslims? Nah, I feel sorry for most of them. Low IQ, incapable of life in the first world and so they hate. They do murder. Even with no infidels around, they murder each other. Equipped with the finest weaponry, they drop and surrender, but at least they're pragmatic. Nonetheless, they murder their daughters over "honor" (Muslims have no honor, the Koran gives them permission to lie after all), they murder their sisters, their wives, they castrate and mutilate their own daughters. Muslims have MAJOR sexual issues with their women, young children and animals. Hell, most of the Koran (or whatever you want to call the comic book of Islam) is about all the ways Muslim men get to rape women and young girls with permission of Allah. The beheading, the depravity, the destruction, dishonor between even Muslim men is despicable and none of it can be denied. This is not propaganda, this is life in the Muslim world and even better, they wish to infect the rest of the world.

    And I really love the Fatwa which makes everything really flexible so evils may be instituted to fit the scenario. There's more, a lot more, but nothing that changes the basic picture. The above is modern Muslim culture. And I'm told that it used to be worse five centuries back. Hope it all works out somehow, but in all this time, they still wish to go back to the stone age. Suits me, go. Be. Enjoy.

    You may now return to your regularly scheduled propaganda. profanity and anti-Semitic rants and rage..
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  195. ltlee says:
    @jon
    I see that this is a reprint, is there any chance the author will actually see comments made on this site? In any event, these are my thoughts:

    1. The only eyewitness identifications that I can find speak of three white men.

    Eyewitness accounts are notoriously bad, so I don't put much stock that they thought a couple of Middle Easterners, dressed head to toe in black, were actually white (in fact, they technically are under current Census classification). Likewise, I am not surprised that they thought a woman shooting up a holiday party was a man. That's just where the mind naturally goes, and these people had few visual cues to go on given how the shooters were dressed.

    On the other hand, the fact that they claimed to see three people is troubling. Even as bad as eyewitness testimony can be, I don't think these two witnesses would conjure up a non-existent third shooter in their minds. This is your best point, in my opinion.

    2. They fired 76 rounds, while police fired 380. Who did the counting? When? Who verified this?

    The police would presumably keep a close count on their own ammo, so figuring out how many rounds were fired is simple math - amount issued minus amount remaining. For the newlyweds, I would guess it's just a matter of counting shell casings. May undercount slightly, but also pretty simple.

    3. We are supposed to believe that it took 380 rounds to kill them. If so, these are not sharpshooters.

    If around five times as many cops were involved (that's just 5x2=10), then we would expect that they might fire around five times as many rounds. And would you stop shooting at someone who was shooting at you, just to check if they were dead yet? Also, if they are faking some part of this, but the number of rounds used is somehow unbelievable, why wouldn't they also fake the count?

    As I said above, your best point is the missing third shooter. Focus on that, the rest of these points make you sound a little unhinged and leave you open to dismissals like that by Bragadocious above.

    I find it odd that at first all reports said three gunmen. But after the couple were killed, no one talked about the third gunman.

    Also:

    http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/12/eyewitness-to-san-bernardino-says-it-wasnt-couple/

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