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Veterans’ Day and One-Hundred Years of the Suicide of the West
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Veterans’ Day, November 11, 2018, passed with appropriate ceremony and commemoration: it was one hundred years ago, at the eleventh hour, of the eleventh day, of the eleventh month, that an armistice effectively ending World War I went into effect in the battle-scarred French countryside. Anyone who has had the opportunity to view the classic film, “All Quiet on the Western Front” (1930), starring Lew Ayres, based on a classic novel by German World War I veteran Erich Maria Remarque, will begin—but only begin—to fathom the barbarity of that conflict, the suffering, the slaughter, the mangled bodies, a whole generation of young Englishmen and Frenchmen, forcibly wrenched out their societies, lives extinguished. And in Germany: a nation and an historic and noble culture, with millions dead and maimed, held up as guilty of the ineradicable sin of “war guilt.”

But Austria-Hungary and Russia suffered even more severely. Austria, once one of Europe’s great empires and the center of much of Western culture, the land of Beethoven and Mozart, was literally castrated, huge swathes of its historic fatherland sliced away arbitrarily and turned overnight into quarrelsome petty states, none of which was satisfied with the treaties and boundaries that followed the Armistice: a powder keg for future war. The ancient and revered Habsburg dynasty, the inheritor of the old Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne, was summarily dispossessed, and Austria was left as a small rump state. As English Lord Curzon described it: “A major European capital [Vienna] ruling over a minor state, like Constantinople in the latter days of the Byzantine Empire.”

And the effects on and in Russia were even more incalculable. The world’s largest country, the seat of the 300 year old Romanov dynasty, the land of Peter the Great, of Dostoyevsky, of Tchaikovsky, of Tolstoy, the shield and buckler against the Mongols and the Tartar hordes, in eight short months fell to a fanatical clique, a monstrous cabal of violent Marxists intent of remaking that country, subjugating the Russian Orthodox Church, and spreading the Communist virus across Europe and the world. The vicious and criminal execution of Tsar Nicholas II and his family at Yekaterinburg (July 17, 1918) and of the sainted Grand Duchess Elizabeth and several other Romanovs (July 18, 1918) in Alapayevsk brought home in chilling detail the unparalleled brutality that the war had unleashed. Elizabeth, who years prior to war had become a nun and who had engaged in numerous charitable activities for the poor (and later for Russian soldiers), was taken and, with her companions, cast down a dank and deep mine shaft.

The description of her martyrdom deserves to be told and repeated, for how many of us could meet impending death as she did? Here, in part, is how Wikipedia describes it:

That night the prisoners were awakened and driven in carts on a road leading to the village of Siniachikha, near Alapayevsk where there was an abandoned iron mine with a pit 66 feet deep. Here they halted. The Cheka severely beat all the prisoners before throwing their victims into this pit, Elisabeth being the first. Hand grenades were then hurled down the shaft, but only one victim, Fyodor Remez, died as a result of the grenades.

According to the personal account of Vasily Ryabov, one of the killers, Elisabeth and the others survived the initial fall into the mine, prompting Ryabov to toss in another grenade after them. Following the explosion, he claimed to have heard Elisabeth and the others singing an Orthodox hymn from the bottom of the shaft. Unnerved, Ryabov threw down a second grenade, but the singing continued. Finally a large quantity of brushwood was shoved into the opening and set alight, upon which Ryabov posted a guard over the site and departed [for fear that local peasants would come to save them].

Early on 18 July 1918, the leader of the Alapayevsk Cheka, Abramov, and the head of the Yekaterinburg Regional Soviet, Beloborodov, who had been involved in the execution of the Imperial Family, exchanged a number of telegrams in a pre-arranged plan saying that the school had been attacked by an “unidentified gang”. Lenin welcomed Elisabeth’s death, remarking that “virtue with the crown on it is a greater enemy to the world revolution than a hundred tyrant tsars.”

It is no wonder that the Russian Orthodox Church has canonized Elizabeth as a “New Martyr” who gave her life unselfishly for the Christian faith (and indeed, more recently Tsar Nicholas and his family have been sainted as martyrs as well).

After the conclusion of World War I various historians began to examine and sift through the records, the correspondence, and the documents regarding the war and its origins. And what became evident, if contested, was that perhaps unlike World War II, the First World War was a conflict that did not have to happen, indeed, it should not have happened. And that both the French and English foreign offices had just as much blame for its initiation as the Germans or Austrians, perhaps even more.

More recently, historians such as Bard College professor Sean McMeekin (in July 1914: Countdown to War, Basic Books, 2013) and Cambridge University’s Christopher Clark (in The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914; Harper, 2013) have overwhelmingly confirmed that earlier, if once hotly debated revisionist view. In the words of reviewer Eric Margolis:

`The Sleepwalkers’ shows how officials and politicians in Britain and France conspired to transform Serbia’s murder of Austro-Hungary’s Crown Prince into a continent-wide conflict. France burned for revenge for its defeat in the 1870 Franco-Prussian War and loss of Alsace-Lorraine. Britain feared German commercial and naval competition. At the time, the British Empire controlled one quarter of the world’s surface. Italy longed to conquer Austria-Hungary’s South Tyrol. Turkey feared Russia’s desire for the Straits. Austria-Hungary feared Russian expansion.

Prof Clark clearly shows how the French and British maneuvered poorly-led Germany into the war. The Germans were petrified of being crushed between two hostile powers, France and Russia. The longer the Germans waited, the more the military odds turned against them….Britain kept stirring the pot, determined to defeat commercial and colonial rival, Germany. The rush to war became a gigantic clockwork that no one could stop. [Eric Margolis, “Are We Headed for Another Tragedy Like World War I?”, November 10, 2018, at: ]

Back in 2014 the late Dr. Ralph Raico (professor at Buffalo State College), authored an excellent summary on the origins of the war [“And the War Came,” June 30, 2014, at: ].In his conclusion Raico rightly concludes: “Britain’s entry into the war was crucial. In more ways than one, it sealed the fate of the Central Powers. Without Britain in the war, the United States would never have gone in.”

The German historian Ernst Nolte [d. 2016] has made the case [in his yet untranslated volume, Der Europaische Burgerkrieg (1987) – The European Civil War] that in a certain manner the Second World War was a continuation of the First, that it was, in some ways, a justifiable reaction to the extreme injustice and unresolved issues produced by the imposed “peace” of 1919. While in no way legitimating the concentration camps or executions committed by the Nazis, Nolte has argued that the German reaction in the 1930s was both predictable and understandable, and that the crimes perpetrated were comparable, perhaps even pale in comparison, to those that can be laid at the door of Josef Stalin.

Be that as it may, over 117,000 American “dough boys” died during the First World War and another 204,000 were wounded (figures that pale, however, in comparison to losses suffered by Russia: nearly four million dead, another five million wounded; and the United Kingdom, over one million dead, with another 1.7 million wounded).

Europe—and the world—would never be the same, and in so many ways historic European, Western Christian culture, would never really recover. After surviving the French Revolution and the various violent upheavals of the nineteenth century—after the assaults of scientific and social Darwinism—after the challenges of industrialism and tremendous social dislocation—after absorbing the effects of triumphant political liberalism—after all these hurdles, in a real sense, World War I effectively dismantled the fragile remaining scaffolding, the structures in those nations, those empires, where something of the older framework of what had been “Christendom” still remained.

The “total war” devastation of the Second World War completed that process, smashing to smithereens the remnants of the old order, and more ominously, freeing triumphant and victorious the unfettered spirit of universalized Progress. Sure, the Communists participated in this triumph, but their interpretation of victory was at odds with that of what became known as “the West.” For forty-five years the forces of NATO looked wearily across the demarcation lines, across the Iron Curtain at the forces of the Warsaw Pact.

We had defeated one form of ferocious tyranny, but had replaced it with another just as bad, and maybe even worse. Yet, both the West and the Soviet Bloc proclaimed their progressivism and their belief in equality and democracy, albeit with vastly different interpretations of that progressivism.

The fall of the Berlin Wall and the virtual defenestration and final defeat of the KGB commissars in August 1991 (for which Vladimir Putin, then vice-mayor of Leningrad, deserves our eternal thanks, but won’t get it from American mainstream media) should have signaled the real end of the Second World War, but it only opened a new phase of world turmoil in which the forces of global progressivism now proclaimed their inevitable triumph: the Communists, you see, had become “old fashioned,” “reactionary,” “too stodgy and not revolutionary enough.” But international progressivism, with its handmaidens of “world democracy” and “global equality,” was only emboldened by the whimpering disappearance of the Communist bureaucracy.

Neoconservative writer, Francis Fukyama, in his book The End of History and the Last Man (1992) argued that the worldwide spread of liberal democracies and free market capitalism of the West could signal the terminus of humanity’s sociocultural evolution and become the final form of human government. Fellow Neoconservative Allan Bloom, in his The Closing of the American Mind (1987), counselled the “imposition” of “American democratic and egalitarian values” on the rest of the world; after all, we had won the war, so it was for us to dictate the universal peace, indeed, “to force those who do not accept these principles to do so.”

But is this what the millions of American men went off to battle for in 1941-1945, and why over 400,000 died in remote places like the beaches of Anzio or in the Hurtgen Forest? To impose American-style democracy and values over the far-off desert oases in Libya or in the jungles of South Sudan, for what in effect has become “perpetual war for unobtainable peace”?

I don’t think so. Whether American intelligence or even Franklin Roosevelt knew about the impending Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor, or not, once it occurred America was in World War II, and nearly everyone, from pre-war anti-interventionists like Charles Lindbergh to the most rabid Anglophile pulled together for the war effort.

I can recall numerous conversations with my own father, a veteran, who served in the 101st Cavalry, a light tank reconnaissance unit, and who was wounded in the Saar basin in 1945. Normally a gunner in his tank, he had just traded positions with his close buddy, Dale Lackey, and piloted the tank which then was hit by a Wehrmacht projectile, killing Lackey then in the gunner’s position. If my dad had occupied that role, it would have been he who was killed.

After the war my father and mother both made a kind of pilgrimage to the site of Dale Lackey’s grave in Granite Falls, North Carolina, to pay respects to my dad’s fallen comrade and his family.

And when I was born a few years later, I was given the middle name “Dale” to honor that comradeship and that memory.

Like hundreds of thousands of soldiers who fought and died in World War II, or in Korea, or in Vietnam, my father fought for his country when his country called him to do so. He asked few questions, he did his duty, like millions of other soldiers from time immemorial have always done.

Frenzied visions of imposing global democracy did not figure in his thinking; he did his duty for love of country, he fought for his homeland, for his family, for honor, and, also, for his comrades at arms…for Dale Lackey, and so many more like him.

And, so, for this Veterans’ Day I honored my father’s service and the service of millions of other Americans who went off to war, wars not of their making and sometimes highly questionable in both origin and objectives. Yet they did their duty before God. Some never came back and now rest in faraway cemeteries, some in unmarked graves. We honor them and show them our respect and our appreciation for their unforgettable sacrifice.

Boyd D. Cathey holds a doctorate in history from the University of Navarra (as a Richard Weaver Fellow), in Pamplona. Spain, and an MA from the University of Virginia (where he was a Thomas Jefferson Fellow). He is also former assistant to Dr. Russell Kirk. His anthology of essays about the South, The Land We Love , will be published later in November.

• Category: History • Tags: American Military, World War I 
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  1. Here is something that I wrote 16 years ago about the irony of our Veterans Day:

    Veterans Day has become just another holiday for most Americans, and little is done to honor vets. It’s time to make Veterans Day meaningful by limiting this federal holiday only to current and former military servicemen. Why should our government provide a paid Veterans Day holiday to people who never served in our military? We already have Memorial Day as a paid holiday to honor those who died in the nation’s service. The best way to honor living veterans is to give them the day off while everyone else works.

    There are millions of honorably discharged vets who must work on Veterans Day in the private sector, and millions of others with no jobs at all. Our government gives nothing to these vets, but draft dodgers and dishonorably discharged vets who work for the federal government get a paid day off. Why should Veterans Administration offices with a backlog of work close on this day to “honor” vets by going fishing. In addition, servicemen cannot go to the exchange, commissary, or bank on Veterans Day because employees who never served are home watching TV. Many military people do not get the day off as they must participate in a public relations event to entertain non-veterans. Most veterans working in the private sector do not get a paid holiday for Veterans Day and become angry as they work to serve non-vets enjoying a paid day off.

    We already have another federal holiday in November (Thanksgiving). Limiting the Veterans Day holiday to veterans will save our nation over a billion dollars a year. However, the Federal bureaucracy is a powerful political force and will oppose a loss of any holiday. Fortunately, a holiday is needed for the day after Thanksgiving. That Friday is awkward for all government workers since it’s a regular work day. While many properly take a vacation day or show up for a full eight hours, they resent those who show up for an hour and disappear, or just skip the day. In recent years, some Presidents abused their authority and cost taxpayers billions of dollars by announcing federal workers can take the day off at full pay. Making the Friday after Thanksgiving a federal holiday is the perfect solution.

    Ideally, private businesses that do not pay employees for the Veterans Day holiday will follow this example and give their few veterans the day off with pay. It will become common in America for someone to ask, “Where’s John today?” and for someone to respond “He’s got the day off, he’s a vet.” Serving in our military will finally mean something to most civilians, and a honorable discharge will gain value as well.

    This idea is extremely popular with veterans, for whom Veterans Day was established. Cutting out an official federal holiday will also be supported by the great majority of taxpayers who do not get this day off with pay. Hopefully, Congress will make a meaningful show of support for America’s military veterans by limiting this federal holiday to military personnel and honorably discharged veterans.

    Carlton Meyer [email protected]

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @renfro
  2. As a veteran, I like your IDEA; however, since I only ever flew a typewriter it STILL seems unjust, since what the hell did I do to spread “freedom” or make the world safe for democracy? Do we draw lines within the ranks? Fighting veterans get the day off, whilst 71Ls and HR people work?

    Also, considering Third World shitholes get more vacation days than US Americans do, which kind of makes everybody either drop their collective jaws in astonishment or laff their asses off at us, don’t you think we should get more days off a year than BELIZE??? How ’bout sick leave? Everybody else gets that–Mexico, Belize, Guatemala.

    I do agree tho’–Show the DD214 and get the paid day–otherwise work.

    Then throw on top about eight more paid hollidays, a shitload of paid vacation, and reasonable paid sick days that account for sick children and spouses as well.

    Oh, and on top of the wish-list, did the freedom I flew a desk for entitle me to raise a couple of chickens in my back yard? Thought not. Freedom my ass. What a waste of time my “service” was.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
  3. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    I disagree if for no other reason than that American culture has become even more militarized since you floated your idea. The last thing we need in this country is more celebration and exaltation of the Washington Empire and its wars.

    From the Wikipedia article (sans citations) on Armistice Day:

    “In the U.S. today, Veterans Day honors American veterans, both living and dead. The official national remembrance of those killed in action is Memorial Day, originally called ‘Decoration Day’, from the practice of decorating the graves of war dead in the years immediately following the American Civil War; Decoration/Memorial Day already existed at the time of the armistice.

    Some, including American novelist Kurt Vonnegut, and more recently, American Veteran For Peace Rory Fanning, have urged Americans to resume observation of 11 November as Armistice Day, a day to reflect on how we can achieve peace as it was originally observed.”

    In 2018 America, even this sounds dissident, doesn’t it?

    • Agree: chris
  4. @Pissedoffalese

    The only reason you can’t raise a couple of chickens in your backyard is because illegal alien Mexican cockfighters screwed your pooch on that one

  5. From my blog:

    Jun 8, 2017 – Patriotic Nonsense

    Do you become angry when you hear nonsense that our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting for our freedoms? Do you become enraged when the death of soldiers is explained by claiming they protected us? This is nothing new, as shown in this short movie clip with Korean War vet James Garner. Most blame the Generals and politicians, but he also blames the people back home for glorifying wars, thus allowing the deadly ruse to continue. He stated: “It is always the war widows who lead the Memorial Day parade” as though their husbands died by accident.

    • Replies: @Z-man
  6. chris says:

    I don’t want to take anything away from Mr Cathey’s article, but this type sweeping view of history has the disadvantage of stirring up passive feelings like: ”the flower of European civilizations was lost,’ or, ‘boy are people dumb!’

    Especially nowadays, I prefer to review the actions which lead to those wars and place the blame directly on the specific people and forces who actively stirred to create the slaughter. The bloody corpses must be placed at their feet.

  7. anon[355] • Disclaimer says:

    One thing cannot be denied. For America WW1 was 100% a war of choice. And America’s involvement both prolonged the war and prevented a negotiated peace.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  8. anon[932] • Disclaimer says:

    “The last thing we need in this country is more celebration and exaltation of the Washington Empire and its wars.”

    Hear, hear.

  9. PeterMX says:

    It’s also interesting that the Austro-Hungarian Empire, as the article says, one of the great (and I’ve heard it said, the greatest) empires of Europe was the most multi-cultural empire in Europe and probably the world. It was a very rare example of multi-culturalism being a success, a smashing success. And what did the victorious allies do? They tore it apart and broke it up into many countries and invented the once very popular term “self determination”, which meant every ethnic group had a right to their own country, even if they didn’t always apply that formula. It just shows that their motives for what they did had nothing to do with what they claimed and they wanted to weaken the strongest and most advanced countries in the world, Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Today of course, the powers claim Austria, Germany and none of the European countries have a right to their own country for their ethnic group and they must accept tens of millions of Africans and middle easterners.

    Did Austria-Hungary have ethnic conflict? I think they did, just as every country did. Was it blown out of proportion to justify what the allies did. I think, most definitely. And the complete turnaround in thinking by those in power shows what lying filth they were / are. What was condemned (and this condemnation and the resulting policies made it certain there would be a second big war in Europe) after WW I is now hailed as the key to creating a great country, but the ethnic groups brought together must be totally different, have nothing in common and one group must be among the most undereducated and backward people in the world.

    I also can’t help thinking Jews were a major force behind “self determination”, aka known as “separatism” in Europe 100 years ago, as they are in multiculturalism today. I remember reading what Albert Einstein supposedly once said when he visited Prague, commenting on the ethnic prejudice there. Anything is said to justify policies.

    • Agree: chris
  10. ” First World War was a conflict that did not have to happen, indeed, it should not have happened. And that both the French and English foreign offices had just as much blame for its initiation as the Germans or Austrians, perhaps even more. ”

    The British just continued their 19th century behaviour, despite that GB had had to lower the two fleet standard to one
    They did not understand that they were not fighting a war against primitive people
    Ian Hernon, ‘Britain’s Forgotten Wars, Colonial Campaigns of the 19th Century’, 2003, 2007, Chalford – Stroud
    Edward Mead Earle, Ph.D., ‘Turkey, The Great Powers and The Bagdad Railway, A study in Imperialism’, 1923, 1924, New York
    The same British mistake in the thirties
    Lawrence R. Pratt, ‘East of Malta, West of Suez’, London, 1975

  11. Beethoven was born in the German city of Bonn as a German citizen, not Austrian. He did, however, live and reach musical his climax in Vienna. Vienna is also where he died and is buried.

    • Replies: @Anon
  12. “For which Vladimir Putin … deserves our eternal thanks”. What thanks oes the author think Putin should get?

  13. Anonymous[364] • Disclaimer says:

    Suicide of the West, set to music:

    ♫ I don’t think you trust in my self-righteous suicide.
    Father! Father!! Father!!! Father!!!!
    Father, into your hands, I commend my spirit.
    Father, into your hands–
    Why have you forsaken me?
    In your eyes, forsaken me?
    In your thought, forsaken me?
    In your heart, forsaken me?
    Trust in my self-righteous suicide!
    I cry, when angels deserve to die. ♪

    System Of A Down
    Chop Suey! (2001)
    767,000,000+ views

  14. Alfred says:

    Suggested reading:

    “Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War.”

    The reader of this book will learn that WW1 was planned by the British ruling elites more than 10 years before 1914.

    Contrary to the official version, the Germans did everything possible to try and avoid it. They were the last to mobilise.

    The fact that all the pre-war files of the German Foreign Ministry were removed to the USA and never released to researchers is ample proof that they contradict the official story of the “winners”

    • Replies: @Anon
  15. Yes, fair article but it seems that I have read it several times this week on alone. I had a bit of a stop with ” in August 1991.. the virtual defenestration and final defeat of the KGB commissars… Putin deserves our eternal thanks..” Huh?

    Putin was the mayor of Lenigrad, Sobchak’s fart catcher when the Berlin wall went down not even a vice mayor if such a thing existed. He was no player though luminaries such as Mogilovich (boss of bosses) and other mafiosi were in his acquaintance.

    To be fair, unravelling the hows and whys of how Russia rejuvenated itself after the defilements by the ‘West’ under ‘Bobo the Bottle’ Yeltsin is/was not an easy riddle to unravel at least for me.

    After much online reading and at least a dozen books I finally came to understand, at least in my mind on what had transpired.

    The major book I would recommend to anybody would be Misha Glenny’s McMafia: A Journey Through the Global Criminal Underworld (2008).

    A lesser book, but one that finally put the last jigsaw piece in place for me was Comrade Criminal, The Theft of the Second Russian revolution by Stephen Handleman (1994). The first 100 pages are mandatory reading.

    In brief, the criminal class and their captains (Vor) were an indispensable component in making a command economy work. When the USSR collapsed they still had an existing hierarchy and power to prevent total chaos. The KGB, due to how they work was also more or less left intact but it alone could not run the state. The government was the weak sister putting on a face of normality for public and international consumption. Significantly Yeltsin made Putin FSB boss in 1998.

    Biding their time the two power groups observed the good works of the ‘big brains’ from Harvard and the emergence of the oligarchs and others buying state assets for kopecks on the ruble until they finally joined forces and gave Yeltsin a bottle he could not refuse. Putin became the face of the new Russia.

    In plain English, it was the organic emergence of mafia state, able to run the economy and deal with foreign and domestic elements. Witness the relatively swift demise of the oligarchs.

    Of course we can now see why they are the number one enemy of the US. Nobody likes to be interrupted while in the midst of a fondly anticipated and enjoyable rape.

    Another point for Mr. Cathey to note, FDR knew of the impending strike on Pearl Harbour. To me It is beyond question. Look up Day of Deceit by Robert Stinnett. I have the hardcover book. It is a hard read because of the technical and archival methodology. It was probably published because the author supported FDR and endorsed the subsequent war.

    Sorry for veering off topic but I felt that the correction required somewhat of an elucidation.

    My dos centavos-

    • Replies: @chris
  16. “And the effects on and in Russia were even more incalculable. The world’s largest country, the seat of the 300 year old Romanov dynasty, the land of Peter the Great, of Dostoyevsky, of Tchaikovsky, of Tolstoy, the shield and buckler against the Mongols and the Tartar hordes, in eight short months fell to a fanatical clique, a monstrous cabal of violent Marxists intent of remaking that country, subjugating the Russian Orthodox Church, and spreading the Communist virus across Europe and the world. ”

    What a piece of utter BS yet again. The author should have checked what those Romanov had been doing over the 300 years of their rule turning Russian peasant population into effective slaves. Also, under Peter the Great Russia probably lost up to 25% of her population. I do not hear no protests from the author who posted this garbage. Another point would be that the fanatical clique made Dostoevsky, Tchaikovsky and all other grand masters of Russia culture available to all, created the best in the world educational system that propelled Russia from status of shithole towards world superpower and modern Russia owes everything to what that fanatical clique did , not Alexander III or especially Nikolai II who managed to have 5+ millions of his countrymen die for nothing.

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @chris
  17. Alfred says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “Also, under Peter the Great Russia probably lost up to 25% of her population.”

    Perhaps the invasion of Sweden had something to do with it?

    One Swedish army went all the way across Russia and was welcomed by the Turks who let them go home by ship!

    Peter the Great finally put an end to Swedish adventures at Poltava – and Sweden rapidaly declined as a great power.

    Let us not forget that the population of Sweden was not much less than that of Russia at the time. Furthermore, the population of Russia was greatly dispersed. What is today called “Ukraine” was largely empty.

  18. And here is the endgame:

    I was watching American Pickers last night on the History Channel. Commercial time:a History Channel promo about a young Hindu “American” interviewing the last WW2 American Vets for a History Channel special thanking these White Vets for their sacrfices…..which includes handing America over to the Hindu “Americans” on Nov 3 2020 when HINDU-JAMAICAN POTUS KAMALA HARRIS IS ELECTED POTUS…….PREET BHARARA her ATTORNEY GENERAL…….

  19. WWI and all the following wars that the U.S. was involved in right down to the Mideast wars were instigated by and for the profit of the Zionist banking kabal and their privately own debt creation machine the FED and their debt collection machine their privately owned IRS and with their created wars and debt they have conquered America.

    With this Zionist control the wars and deaths and debt will never end and neither will the profits for the Satanist Zionist banking kabal and this is Americas future.

    • Agree: Zumbuddi
    • Replies: @Zumbuddi
  20. I shall have never forgive Peter Brimelow and Pat Buchanan for being cheerleaders for skilled Asian Legal Immigrants.

    Yes, I know Peter and Pat don’t believe in this policy wonk sewage anymore…..but permanent damage has been done…And it is for this reason, that I shall never forgive Peter and Pat…..An opportunity was blown….big time……still very pissed about it….

  21. anastasia says:

    This is unbelievable, truly outrageous. The leaders had no conscience at all.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  22. Austria, once one of Europe’s great empires and the center of much of Western culture, . . . The ancient and revered Habsburg dynasty, the inheritor of the old Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne, was summarily dispossessed, and Austria was left as a small rump state.

    Would have been much appreciated if the author had sounded a single note in recognition of the Revolutions of 1848 and the efforts of so many states to free themselves from domination by the “ancient and revered Habsburg dynasty.”

    Verdi composed an entire opera (and launched his long career) to energize and memorialize the passion of Italians to liberate themselves from “the revered . . .Austrians.”

    “O mia patria, si bella et perduta!”

  23. L says:

    Back when W was Warmonger in Chief, a fellow in Burlington Vermont would protest on Church Street, the crowded pedestrian mall, with huge homemade signs. The classic he got beat up for a few times was:


    • Replies: @anon
    , @follyofwar
  24. Bill H says: • Website

    CBS News was doing a piece on delays in providing the GI Bill to veterans and interviewed one such victim, who had been waiting a horrendous 90 days to receive her benefits. She said it was unfair that she had so much trouble and had to wait so long to “get the benefits that I fought for and risked my life for.” And so now we know why she, at least, served. It wasn’t for democracy and to protect her country, it was for the benefits.

  25. EugeneGur says:

    Nolte has argued that the German reaction in the 1930s was both predictable and understandable, and that the crimes perpetrated were comparable, perhaps even pale in comparison, to those that can be laid at the door of Josef Stalin.

    Even assuming the crime “laid at the door of Josef Stalin” are anywhere near the truth, so what? Let us come and kill some more people, all 27 million of them, and destroy half of the country, and it’s all justified, because somebody else allegedly did something bad. What kind of logic is that?

    I’ll tell you what kind of logic that is – the logic of Untermenschen. The Russians aren’t quite human, so whatever was done to them isn’t good, of course, but is basically OK. You see, Germany was mistreated in 1919, so we can understand its behavior and sympathize. That Nolte personage would’ve never uttered anything that idiotic if he had been talking about his own country, and if it had been his own family sitting in his ow Stalingrad under those “justified” bombs.

    Whether American intelligence or even Franklin Roosevelt knew about the impending Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor,

    Of course, they hadn’t a foggiest idea, except they essentially pushed Japan into a war by a blockade that deprived the country of essential resources and threatened its survival. But that attack on Pearl Harbor wasn’t in any way ” both predictable and understandable”, of course, not.

    • Replies: @byrresheim
  26. anonymous[333] • Disclaimer says:

    The various leaderships in 1914 apparently had no clue what 1918 would end up looking like or else they might have been a bit more cautious in their lust for war. The people doing the actual fighting and dying get no benefit from all this and so must be bamboozled into thinking their country is calling them as well as being coerced outright. One portion of the population owns the lives of the others and can force them to fight and die according to the plans of those running things. You are their property and the value they place on your life is zero. Nowadays with nuclear weapons hanging over our heads the potential for destroying the planet is real yet they keep cranking them out along with their plans of how to use them and under what circumstances. Part of the appeal of the communists was that imperialism would be curtailed and such wars would no longer be possible in a world ruled in the interests of the mass of people. Lenin had it right when he said the imperialists had no qualms about sweeping ten million people off the face of the earth for one group to grasp control over territory from another. Sure, the Austro-Hungarian empire had great culture within it but it’s rulers were aggressive and expansionist, moving eastwards and bringing it into conflict with the eastern Slavs. The French and British all had their aims as well. What’s changed since then? The current rulers could recklessly initiate a nuclear exchange taking the rest of us down the hole with them.

  27. An absurd statement:

    “And what became evident, if contested, was that perhaps unlike World War II, the First World War was a conflict that did not have to happen, indeed, it should not have happened. “

    If WWI had not happened, WWII would not have happened; ergo, if A should not have happened, neither should B.

    Both were made to happen by the same forces that DESERT FOX mentions in #19, and in both instances, USA was involved in them in direct contravention of the wishes of the democratic citizenry whose blood and treasure were lost for them, after the leaders of the US Constitutional republic lied to and heavily propagandized its citizens and worked around or subverted congressional processes. In other words, the leaders (presidents) who drew USA into WWI and WWII did so as the sole decision-makers, i.e. tyrants.

    In an August, 2018 interview, Brian Lamb asked Michael Gerhardt, professor of Constitutional law, to comment on Franklin Roosevelt’s “vulnerabilities.”
    Gerhardt said:

    Well, he might have lied to Congress or been a little bit – uh, let’s say quick – uh, uh maybe didn’t – didn’t disclose certain things to Congress on how he was going to try and help some of our allies who were under siege from Nazi Germany at that time.

    So in taking some of those liberties, Roosevelt might have been using his judgment to try and do what he thought was best but wasn’t necessarily communicating with all candor with Congress. Maybe we could look back on that and say, “Oh, that was not a great thing.” Maybe we look back on that and say it was a bad thing.

    But if we think of it in terms of what the benefits were, he was trying to protect the world against a force that was about to try and come after other countries and a force for evil.

    iow, FDR took it upon himself to make the decision for war, contrary to the demands of the Constitution that he swore to uphold and defend; he lied to the people and the Congress in so doing; and he did so for the benefit and under the direct influence of (among others) Zionist Jews including Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Felix Frankfurter, Bernard Baruch, Rabbi Stephen Wise; and contrary to the persistent informed advise of former president Herbert Hoover and numerous American diplomats, congressmen, Supreme Court justices, and patriots who had direct knowledge of the situation in Europe as well as of the machinations of some of the zionist leaders.

  28. Anon[340] • Disclaimer says:

    When Beethoven was born Bonn was administered by the Habsburg Archduke Maximilian.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  29. Z-man says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    Yeah one of my favorite movies, Garner’s the best. Andrews looked great. Coburn was a hoot in that movie.

  30. While I appreciate the multiple variations of who and what started WWI. I live in the US. Veteran’s day for my stead is to the honoring or remembrances of my fellow citizens who served the US in the armed forces.

    For our stead we had little to do with the any of these narratives regarding European competition, jealousies, intrigues and political machinations, save to come in at the end and help resolve the matter.

    • Replies: @chris
    , @anon
  31. anon[107] • Disclaimer says:

    Former President George W. Bush and former first lady Laura Bush received the Liberty Medal on Sunday at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia for their work with veterans, reports CBS Philly. The award, in its 30th year, honors people for their commitment to veterans.

  32. @L

    He deserved to get beat up.

    • Agree: Rich
    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  33. chris says:

    Sadly, ‘to resolve the matter’ in such a way as to create the conditions for the start of the next war, 20 years later.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  34. Wally says:

    author Cathey said:

    “While in no way legitimating the concentration camps or executions committed by the Nazis … ”

    The Allies also had concentration camps.

    What “executions”? The ones that are absurdly claimed, are easily debunked, and cannot be proven, no doubt.

    In fact the Germans did nothing that wasn’t also done by the Allies and wasn’t the norm worldwide at the time. The only true ‘holocaust’ was the one inflicted upon civilians by the Allies.

  35. jim jones says:

    There is a new film out soon about WW1, looks interesting:

    • Agree: Z-man
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  36. “The German historian Ernst Nolte [d. 2016] has made the case [in his yet untranslated volume, Der Europaische Burgerkrieg (1987) – The European Civil War] that in a certain manner the Second World War was a continuation of the First, that it was, in some ways, a justifiable reaction to the extreme injustice and unresolved issues produced by the imposed “peace” of 1919. While in no way legitimating the concentration camps or executions committed by the Nazis, Nolte has argued that the German reaction in the 1930s was both predictable and understandable, and that the crimes perpetrated were comparable, perhaps even pale in comparison, to those that can be laid at the door of Josef Stalin.”

    Ernst Nolte’s very compelling argument that the atrocities of German National Socialism were modeled after Bolshevik (Russian) experiments in mass-murder in large part led to the Historikerstreit in the mid-1980s over the nature of Germany guilt and the interpretation of the “Holocaust.”

    The guardian of Holocaust, Deborah Lipstadt weighs in on Nolte with lies and non-sequiturs. Anyone who declines to make Germany and Hitler the epitome of evil for Lipstadt is “dangerous.”

    “Historians such as the German Ernst Nolte are, in some ways, even more dangerous than the deniers. Nolte is an anti-Semite of the first order, who attempts to rehabilitate Hitler by saying that he was no worse than Stalin; but he is careful not to deny the Holocaust. Holocaust-deniers make Nolte’s life more comfortable. They have, with their radical argumentation, pulled the center a little more to their side. Consequently, a less radical extremist, such as Nolte, finds himself closer to the middle ground, which makes him more dangerous.”

  37. The West committed suicide not in WWI, but when it decided that it won the Cold War after 1991 demise of the Soviet Union. The quality of Western elites went down precipitously after that. In their hubris they did a lot to destroy the world order based on Western domination, and keep doing it like there is no tomorrow. There is tomorrow, but it won’t belong to the US Empire and its sidekicks.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  38. JLK says:

    The guardian of Holocaust, Deborah Lipstadt weighs in on Nolte with lies and non-sequiturs. Anyone who declines to make Germany and Hitler the epitome of evil for Lipstadt is “dangerous.”

    Ideally, an academic historian wouldn’t decry inquiry into any historical topic or critique the work of others accordingly to what best serves his or her political agenda. It’s bad scholarship and probably the reason that Goldhagen wasn’t awarded tenure at Harvard. Lipstadt is one of the most brazen of the so-called academics engaging in this activity. The best she can offer on the work of this author (whom she was quick to label as “German” in her effort to discredit) seems to be that is that it is “dangerous” and that it helps the wrong people. Emory University, a school striving for respectability after being gifted a huge sum of Pepsi-Cola stock in the 1980s, should be embarrassed that it is being used as a platform for her activities.

    Finkelstein’s assessment of her as a “know-nothing” seems pretty on target.

    • Replies: @PeterMX
  39. @jim jones

    Recall that TRUE story about German and British soldiers refusing to fight on Christmas and actually singing familiar Christmas carols to each other.

    I wish that both sides had dropped their weapons and walked home en masse.

  40. @AnonFromTN

    Perhaps, but without WW1 there would be TENS of millions more Englishmen, Irishmen, Scots, Germans, and French people alive today, probably more than 100 million more. More White European-Americans as well. Demographically tragic and disastrous.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  41. @RadicalCenter

    Possibly, but we have no way of knowing that. Even in hard sciences (physics, chemistry, biochemistry) linear extrapolation is usually wrong. In history it’s likely even more misleading. For example, without disastrous WWI there likely won’t be Russian revolution of 1917 and German revolution of 1918, so the whole course of European history would have been different. BTW, in WWII even more white people were lost than in WWI. Most were murdered by other white people. Ironically, mostly by those who firmly believed in white supremacy. Besides, the export of health care and agricultural technology, including drugs, seeds, and fertilizers, from the first world to the third, as well as copy-cat production of all of these things in the third world, played even greater role in current demographic trends than world wars.

    • Replies: @chris
  42. The best way for all of us, including Cathey, to honor the victims of past wars is to expose the criminals today that seek to implement new wars and chaos. These criminals are exactly who JFK said they were. They are “secret societies.” Two examples are the B’nai B’rith and the Council on Foreign Relations. The CFR, a direct byproduct of the “Round Table,” is currently responsible for weaponized migration and identity politics. It’s all written down by Bill Clinton’s mentor Carroll Quigley. Corbett has compiled a great 20 min. video.

    • Agree: Agent76
  43. bookish1 says:

    Let us not forget that WW1 and its tragic aftermath brought us a man named Hitler. Most people don’t realize it now but Hitler has changed the future of the world forever much like Jesus’s revolution changed the world and just as Jesus’s revolution wasn’t recognized for what it was to become for a long time after his death so is Hitler’s world is for the most part hidden from our view, for now. Like it or not we are in ‘The Age of Hitler’ and at the very beginning of that age that will last thousands of years. If one has even the slightest grasp of the significance of Hitler’s great success in making Germany the most successful political, social, and economic system in the history of the world one can understand that Hitlerism is the future. One day National Socialism will be as natural to us as democracy is to us now and Hitler’s words will be the words of a prophet. And when Hitler’s revolution becomes a common way of living the subject of the importance of racial purity being the primary and most important thing will be accepted and be so obvious that people will think it weird that people in the past didn’t see its importance for what it was. This easy going time that we are presently living in with all its race mixing will be seen as being just ignorant uniformed people of another age that we finally evolved out of and people will be thankful that it is in the past forever.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  44. renfro says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    We should have Veterans Day ,,,BUT… should be Days Of Mourning .
    All stores, companies, restaurants should be ordered Closed …with black wreaths hung on their doors and buildings and the US Flag lowered to half mast every where it is flown. All TV channels should be ordered to have no programs running except documentaries on the Full story on every war.

    • Agree: Z-man
  45. @bookish1

    You shouldn’t have switched from grass to hard drugs. Don’t try acid: you’d think that you are a tree. Others might notice.

  46. Cyrano says:

    WW1 was initiated by a patriotic Serb who thought that after centuries of Ottoman rule, Bosnia should be free. Austro-Hungarians on the other hand had different ideas.

    The other great powers of Europe had colonies in Africa, Asia, or earlier in the Americas. The clever Austrians (Germans really) thought why bother to travel that far, when you can have colonies right there – in Europe, especially if they are populated with untermensch Slavs.

    Thank God that Serbs are not like Polaks, Ukrainians, Croats, or other real untermensch Slavs of Catholic persuasion for whom it’s a real honor to be ruled by western masters. For the Serbs the idea of being a colony of Austria-Hungary was an insult – as it should be, and they did something about it.

    Good riddance to the European empires, the degeneracy that is prevalent over there now didn’t came as a result of the demise of those empires, it came as a result of the former empires submitting to a new, even more clueless empire than they used to be. It looks like in Europe you can either be a nation of domination, or a nation of subordination. Unfortunately, the Europeans suck in the second role even more than they used to suck in the first one.

    • Disagree: Ilyana_Rozumova
  47. Much like the Forty Years War in which the Defenestration of Prague and the defeat of the Winter Queen by the Hapsburgs was the first of four phases in the end leaving France for a short time as the preeminent power, WWI was the first Imperial Phase of the Seventy Five Years War 1918-1989 which has left the the preeminent power too for a short time.

  48. PeterMX says:

    Nolte is a towering figure, as is David Irving. Lipstadt is a pygmy, not even a historian. Her degree is in religion. David Irving doesn’t have a degree in history either, but he is an expert German speaker, has written many international bestsellers, was widely praised as a leading historian before organized Jewry made a concentrated effort to destroy his career and has done more than anyone else to uncover the history of WW II. Lipstadt doesn’t even speak German, but the mainstream media and Hollywood portray her as a “Holocaust” expert. She could never even do any original research, since all of the original source material is in German. She can only regurgitate what was written in English by others. The only reason Lipstadt is even known is because she has viciously attacked revisionists but the Jewish media would build up anyone else in the same way for attacking Irving. It’s not that they know anything or have contributed anything to the field of study.

  49. chris says:

    Regarding RadicalCenter’s comment that: “TENS of millions more Englishmen, Irishmen, Scots, Germans, and French people alive today,” it’s hard to dispute that. Sure, they might indeed have found even more efficient ways of killing each other a couple of years later, but how likely is it that there were many scenarios which could have topped the savage killings which WWI has triggered into this day, including the spread of Communism into Russia and China with its 100 million peace time deaths, WWII, and down to the Middle East to include the Syrian borders and of course the creation of Israel. Ask Madeline Albright if ‘that price was worth it.’

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  50. @anon

    To their own advantage.
    They helped sow the seeds, and now their descendants are reaping the whirlwind

    • Replies: @HallParvey
  51. renfro says:

    Wars should all be hand to hand combat…no planes, tanks, bombs, guns, etc……only weapon allowed would be a knife.

  52. @chris

    You are mixing apples and oranges. In addition, you are buying blatant lies of some propagandists.

    WWI was a futile exercise of imperial powers at the time, which resulted in millions dying for nothing. Especially considering that many empires crumbled as the result (that was good riddance, if you ask me; too bad not all empires existing at the time got their deserts).

    The spread of communism, warts and all, did not result in “100 million peace time deaths”. The number of those executed under Stalin was below 700,000 (some of them actually deserved that, such as Central Asian bandits or Nazi collaborators). Several million Chinese likely died as the result of Mao’s cultural revolution (we don’t know the exact numbers), but nowhere near 100 million. In fact, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the US each murdered more people than all communists of the world put together.

    Current events in the ME and elsewhere are largely the result of the imperial policies of the US and its sidekicks. They destroyed Yugoslavia, Somalia, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine, Yemen, and tried to destroy Syria, but Russian imperial policy got in the way in the latter case. That made the propaganda machine of the US and its vassals to go into overdrive, telling blatant lies about numerous hospitals allegedly bombed by Assad and Russia (many times more than ever existed in the ME, even if we count Israel in), etc., and saying nothing about indiscriminate destruction of Raqqa and Mosul with thousands of murdered civilians and no reconstruction effort (in sharp contrast to Aleppo).

    The creation of Israel was probably a mistake. It was shared by the US and USSR empires, each having its own nefarious ends in sight.

    As to Albright (and similarly guilty personages, like both Clintons, Bush Jr, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Blair, Rice, Obama, etc.), I believe that they should be tried for their crimes and hanged, like Nazi war criminals.

    • Agree: Stan d Mute, bluedog
    • Replies: @Wally
    , @Rich
  53. tac says:

    Interesting to note is that the author of this piece fails to mention one of the biggest massacres of WWII–the deliberate murders of German civilians inflicted by allies.

    Here is a view of the other side few will see:

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
    • Replies: @Alfred
  54. chris says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    … the fanatical clique made Dostoevsky, Tchaikovsky and all other grand masters of Russia culture available to all, created the best in the world educational system that propelled Russia from status of shithole towards world superpower and modern Russia owes everything to what that fanatical clique did…

    Don’t you realize that if you can justify killing millions of people in order to create a “superpower” out of a “shithole” then you can justify any crime for any reason? Because every criminal can always claim he was just interrupted while trying to make superpowers out of shitholes! Given enough time and victims he will surely succeed.

    You may indeed make such claims, but how can you then claim the country had: “the best in the world educational system” when you’re running around regurgitating the obvious self-serving propaganda that system created in order to hide its crimes ? (assuming you, yourself are a victim of that educational system and didn’t just adopt such claims from afar).

    Let me give you another example of how you got royally screwed by “the best in the world educational system.”

    Do you know how the US, Western Europe and China since the 1980s, became the greatest economies the world has ever seen? They just let everyone be freer than before, that’s all! Those millions of dead victims of your “clique of fanatics” weren’t necessary after all! Hell, China tried it both ways, but they achieved more in the last 30 years with a little more freedom than they ever did in the previous 30 years with the gun. You might want to consider some of these things.

  55. Agent76 says:

    Apr 6, 2017 Woodrow Wilson | The Great War

    For President Woodrow Wilson, the Great War was a crusade “to make the world safe for democracy” — a chance to transform the international order in America’s image. “No one had articulated a kind of vision of America as a global citizen,” says filmmaker Stephen Ives. But at the close of the war, Wilson’s arrogance and inflexibility ultimately undermined his own lofty goals.

  56. Alfred says:

    The American public resisted involvement in the war until German provocations — including submarine attacks on U.S. ships and an idiotic attempt to get Mexico to attack Texas — got out of hand. The U.S. finally declared war on Germany on April 6, 1917.

    The article is conventional rubbish. The Americans were using civilian ships – such as RMS Lusitania – to ship weapons to the UK. The Germans even published warnings in the newspapers of New York to tell passengers not to take this ship.

    The whole of WW1 was planned long in advance. The British managed to dismember and weaken both Germany and Russia. France, the UK’s traditional enemy, was poleaxed and has not recovered to this day.

    • Replies: @anon
  57. Alfred says:

    Another thing they never mention – and Hollywood never make movies of it – is the fact that the Germans lost 3 million people after the end of hostilities – from starvation and cold. The Gestapo was quickly given similar jobs by the Americans while the Wermacht soldiers perished in exposed concentration camps.

    The Marshall Plan did not even start until 4 years after the end of hostilities. It was only passed because they realised that the Germans might turn Communist.

  58. @chris

    The only role that the US had in WWII was from the depression that resulted in doling out loans to Germany they knew could not be repaid — or should have known.

    Other than that — nothing. The League of nations was not what was envisioned by Pres Wilson and Congress bailed on the idea altogether. The penalties on Germany were largely the efforts of the Europeans victors.

    The forthcoming Chancellor Hitler was a wild card, created and made in Germany by Germans. The speed of whose ambitions fortunately, entropied.

    • Replies: @chris
  59. Wally says:

    “In fact, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the US each murdered more people than all communists of the world put together.
    I believe that they should be tried for their crimes and hanged, like Nazi war criminals.”

    – Please provide proof for such a sweeping statement concerning Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the US.

    – And always interesting in lieu of the fake & debunked ‘holocaust’ claims, how many do you think ‘the Nazis’ “murdered”? How do you think they were “murdered”? Your proof is?

    – What “Nazi war criminals” are you talking about? Please be specific, names, charges, evidence against them.


    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  60. @chris

    Are you talking about 5 millions killed by germans and Nikki II in wwI? Or 27 million killed again by germans during great patriotic war? Or are you referring to millions dead due to white insurrection backed and funded by western partners? May be thes millions dead due to contre revolution and market reforms of 90s backed by same partners? Archives are opened and number of executed under Soviet power is between 600-700 thousand. Population was growing all years under Soviet power despite wide urbanization and look at Russia right from the very first year of so called market reforms and now. Population is in downfall.

  61. @Wally

    Ah, what about Nurnberg ? You are funny man. Vietnam war count, Iraqi war count, Korean war and so forth?

    • Replies: @Bukowski
  62. @chris

    China achievement = American manufacturing based moved across the pond. Nothing else.

  63. anon[355] • Disclaimer says:

    “help resolve the matter”.

    Are you for real buddy? What color is the sky in your world sport?

    Had America just minded its own business the war would have been resolved sooner without US intervention. And it would have been resolved by a negotiated peace involving give and take on both sides, thus making a more secure and stable peace. America’s “resolving” led to a dysfunctional dictated peace that caused a far worse war just two decades later.

  64. Anon[340] • Disclaimer says:

    Elegy in a Country Churchyard
    by G.K. Chesterton

    The men that worked for England
    They have their graves at home:
    And bees and birds of England
    About the cross can roam.

    But they that fought for England,
    Following a falling star,
    Alas, alas for England
    They have their graves afar.

    And they that rule in England,
    In stately conclave met,
    Alas, alas for England,
    They have no graves as yet.

  65. anon[355] • Disclaimer says:

    “attacks on U.S. ships”…

    Lets correct that to attacks on U.S. ships in British territorial waters. Which was a war zone by the way. Why would Americans be divinely ordained with the right to travel freely and at will in a war zone during hostilities without risking the possibility of suffering the consequences of those actions? It is also worth noting the German government went to great efforts to give fair warning about the dangers, publishing full page ads in American newspapers. What the U.S. government SHOULD HAVE DONE is warned its citizens that the waters around the British Isles were dangerous and should be avoided and that any citizens who ventured in them did so at their own risk. Instead that imbecile Wilson took the ridiculous view Americans could go anywhere and do whatever they wanted without concern.

    “get Mexico to attack Texas”

    WRONG! The Zimmerman telegram merely proposed that if America declared war on Germany that Mexico and Germany become allies. Mexico’s motivation for such an alliance would be to acquire territory in the southwest lost in 1848. Of course none of this would have ever even have been suggested had America maintained a real neutrality throughout the war. See the book THE ILLUSION OF VICTORY for what the writer describes as America’s sham neutrality before April 1917.

  66. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:

    People who only read one book should beware of spouting BS and exposing their naive ignorance.

  67. It is odd to treat Hitler’s geopolitical ambitions, and willingness to use force, as natural and justifiable ones for Germany without mentioning that none of the 1933- 1945 disasters would have occurred but for the economic meltdown which started in 1929 and was close to the bottom in 1933.

    • Replies: @JLK
  68. JLK says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Germany had hyperinflation earlier than that. Most of the middle class lost their entire savings. There were a lot of angry people.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  69. Rich says:

    I wonder why you would go with the lowest possible estimates and carefully use the word “executed”? Sympathy for the psychopath, maybe? Are you familiar with what’s known today as the “Holodomor”? Estimates vary, but this forced starvation is said to have caused 7.5 million deaths. Stephane Coutois, the French historian, counted 100 million murdered by the Reds. It has been estimated that 18 million people were imprisoned in the Soviet Gulag and that at least 1.5 million of them died while imprisoned. The rapes, murders, false arrests, torture and general thuggishness of the Soviets alone, not including other murderous Reds throughout the world, may make them most monstrous of any regime in history.

    There was no Katyn massacre carried out by Western troops in the Middle East, no rape of every female 8-80 by Western troops like that carried out by the Soviets in Eastern Germany. Prisoners of War weren’t starved and tortured in Raqqa or Mosul by the Americans like the Axis prisoners were by the Red Army. There is no comparison between the actions of the West and the brutality of the communists. None.

    • Agree: chris
  70. tac says:

    There are a few point of contention to what this author attributed in the historical sense (mostly which will be ignored in this presentation), but one that stands out quite clearly is this assertion:

    Austria, once one of Europe’s great empires and the center of much of Western culture, the land of Beethoven and Mozart,

    No, Beethoven was born in and practiced in Germany, like Bach, Handel (although he practiced in England for most of his adult life), Mendelssohn (German Jew), Schumann, Brahms, Wagner…

    Austrians were: Mozart, Schubert, Haydn, Stauss II ….

  71. @JLK

    You reinforce my point. After the great hyper inflation of 1923 the Nazis got nowhere until 1930 – 1933. In other words decent, hardworking, proud middle class Germans weren’t converted to Nazism (and a majority never really were but other parties were banned) until struck by the Depression. Perhaps the main difference between 1923 and 1933 was the unemployment and loss of hope.

  72. @Rich

    He states real numbers derived from real archives and real data. You go for fantastic estimates by some FRENCH historian. There was between 600-700 000 execution from 1921 till 1953. Most of executed were criminals and true enemies of people. We’re policy of cleaning and punishing criminals continue after stalin there would be no coup of 1991 with subsequent very real deaths of millions and demographic catastrophe which is very real and data on which is easily derived from demographic statistics. For obvious reasons this is not discussed under current Russian regime for which it is still about losses in great patriotic war. Note that population of all of the Soviet republics was growing all years under Soviet power right until 1992 and immediately after Soviet union was gone population started shrinking, birth rates fell of the cliff and mortality greatly increased. Any ideas? Regarding so called Holodomor, you should read Elena Prudnikova on this matter. There was not forced starvation period. The case of starvation of 30s was the last one safe case of 1946 while before revolution starvation in Russian empire was rolling across her territory various governorships and was never ending. Murderous reds resolved this terrible issue once and for all. There seems no matter how many times lies and fantastic numbers about invented victims of the Soviet power debunked someone crawls like you from under the rock and start repeating this stale BS again.

    • Replies: @Rich
  73. @chris

    French Field Marshall Foch said immediately after Versailles, “Nothing is settled. War will break out again within 20 years”. His estimate was off by just 3 months.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  74. Rich says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    This new attempt to rehabilitate the murderous communists is starting to get amusing. Some “FRENCH historian” is an odd thing to write, Courtois, a former Red, is the preeminent expert on the subject of commie murders. But he’s not alone, Lemkin, Bilinsky, Mace, Kulchytsky, Naimark, Solzhenitsyn, Conquest, and on and on and on. Those who have written about the terrorism inflicted on innocent human beings by the psychopathic ideologues of the Communist Party would fill a library.

    Why do you people feel you must lie about a dead ideology? Move on, find some new idol to worship, maybe Justin Bieber can fulfill your need to worship something, instead of a bankrupt ideology that probably caused more deaths in its short span than any other group of murderers.

    Arrested because they were “enemies of the people” as a throw away line is very disturbing. Do you know who was considered an “enemy of the people”? Anyone who disagreed with the communist religion. Anyone who angered a communist official, anyone who told an offhand joke, or raised their head up for too long. Start with Solzhenitsyn, then move on to all the other truth tellers of that era, wash this ruinous faith out of your mind.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  75. Just for the record , martyrs do not get “sainted” they get canonized.

  76. The name of our secretary of defence should be changed back to the secretary of war like it used to be.
    We’re never defending anything, we’re always the aggressors!

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
    • Replies: @anon
  77. Zumbuddi says:

    Cathay’s title is wrong.
    It’s not the SUICIDE of the West.

    It’s the GENOCIDE of the West by

    Zionists and their Willing Executioners.

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  78. @anon

    Laughing — I am not sure that has anything to do with my comments.

    By the time the US entered the war – both sides were exhausted. And I if i read the battlefield scenarios correctly, Germany might have prevailed in the end. There is some confusion over whether Berlin understood just how close they were. But regardless, the entry of the US fresh troops gave new life to the allied effort and neither Austria or Germany could withstand the new infusion of energy and effort.

    Your comments are speculative at best. Europe has never managed to develop stable scenarios for peace in all of their history. Blaming the US for what occurred is very weak tea. The US was not the primary source of the settlements or the penalties placed on Germany.

    The US is responsible for European economic choices of loans they could not generate incomes to repay. The US is not responsible for European famines. The ultimate crash in 1929, in process since 1927. The US should have known that Germany was in no condition to ROI the stock buying and loans they engaged in. But again Germany and Europe are responsible for creating conditions making it near impossible for Germany to recover —

    Germany (the Allied powers, less so) is responsible the cultural environment that gave rise to Chancellor Hitler. Despite calmer, more reasonable heads in leadership and among the population, Germany chose Hitler — that was a conscious choice. Germany alone is responsible for the choices regarding expansion beyond agreements. German aggression instigated conflict, even when the Allied powers gave way to the push back to their extreme restrictions. It was Germany that was unsatisfied —

    The cracks in European polity would have remained with or without US intervention.

    The sky I live under is so colored by the refraction of light as it passes through our atmospheric membrane. and said refraction varies in color from dark blue (almost black) – to black at night against a backdrop of visible stars) and light blue even grey or white depending on the level of moisture in the air.

    Details matter, and the details, minus and while we have yet to deliberate and effectively control control the color of the sky. The choices made by Europeans were their own.

    • Replies: @anon
  79. @follyofwar

    He deserved to get beat up.

    I don’t think he did, but that only precludes me from giving him the beating. I’d say he should have fully expected getting his ass beaten (which if you think about it kinda does mean he deserved it).

    There ought to be a whole lot more ass whipping in our society. Many of our social ills would vanish if we had the 19th Century manner of dealing with loudmouth freaks. Men in dresses wouldn’t be demanding to use restrooms built for women and girls if good old ass beatings were still liberally administered. And for the women now empowered to inflict their neuroses on society at large, the same holds – not for the ass whippings (although spankings make sense when women act like spoiled children + many women seem to enjoy a good spanking) – but for the confidence of men in telling them to shut the fuck up and go make a ham sandwich.

    As for the actual topic here, I don’t venerate veterans (and I am one) but rather pity the fools suckered into losing themselves in service of a State that hates them. As volunteers, well paid at that, they deserve nothing from me. I’ll honor and revere every veteran who actually did something to protect my family and community. Our last true heroes fought in the 18th Century when they kicked out the faggot in womenswear they still adulate in England.

  80. @anon

    “Your comments are speculative at best. Europe has never managed to develop stable scenarios for peace in all of their history.”

    I need to amend this to make exception for the advent of the cold war era. However, it’s clear that after the cold war shift, WWII allied powers were quick to begin upping tensions, with the help of the US via NATO and the EU with Russia.

    The evidence indicates US involvement

  81. @Rich

    said to have caused 7.5 million deaths

    Said by who? Does someone saying something constitute proof? I know people in Russia still saying that not a single innocent person was punished by Stalin’s regime. There are also people in China saying that everyone who suffered in Mao’s cultural revolution was guilty. Am I to believe it just because someone says it? I am not that stupid.

    Stalin’s repressions were pretty massive and certainly criminal. However, there is a memo to Khruschev (secret back then, open now) with precise numbers. The number of those repressed from 1921 through 1953 was fewer than 4 million, out of which fewer that 700,000 were shot, and several hundred thousand died in the camps. A lot fewer than died in German concentration camps during WWII. A lot fewer than Chinese and Koreans brutally murdered by the Imperial Japan (or treated in the way that caused their death, like “comfort women”). If you add up the victims of the US involvement in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other places, the numbers would dwarf what the commies of the world are guilty of.

    So-called “Holodomor” is a myth used by stillborn Ukrainian state to justify its existence. There was hunger at the time throughout Southern USSR, including Ukraine, Kuban, lower Volga region, and Kazakhstan. Nothing special in Ukraine. What’s more, at exactly the same time there was widespread hunger in the West of today’s Ukraine that was part of Poland back then. Smarter Ukies studiously avoid talking about it, whereas hopelessly dumb ones say that even that was Stalin’s fault. Thousands of people died of hunger at that time, but not millions.

    Mass rapes by the Red Army in Germany is yet another myth. They were no more prevalent than rapes perpetrated by the Allies in France and Germany (described in many books by people who also call themselves historians). Moreover, in Stalin’s Red (later Soviet) army STDs were an offence punishable by a firing squad. That was not conducive to rapes of unknown women.

    There are lots of books where people say that several million German POWs were starved to death by the Allies in Western Germany. I don’t know whether it’s true, because I do not take every word I read or hear at face value.

    There were virtually no POWs in Raqqa and Mosul, just thousands of dead people, mostly non-combatants. There were no POWs at weddings and in hospitals bombed by the US in Afghanistan, just murder victims.

    However, it is said (this I believe) that nobody is as blind as someone who refuses to see. Check whether this kind of blindness entitles you to any benefits.

    • Replies: @Rich
    , @tac
  82. M Edward says:

    Evidence seems to indicate that it’s been 200 years of infiltration, subversion and genocide of the west by sociopathic Jews.

    I could go on and on, but I’ve grown weary from this genocide.

  83. Rich says:

    I don’t even know how to respond. A “memo to Khrushchev”? Really? Is that the best you can do? Some bitter old commies in Russia, angry that they can’t abuse their power anymore? Holodomor a lie, no sanctioned rape in Eastern Germany, wow, I guess the Soviets were just a grand bunch of guys.

    Adding up the deaths that occurred in every military conflict the US participated in is nonsensical as a comparison to what the filthy Bolsheviks did. To claim that the Red Army didn’t commit mass rapes of every German woman between the ages of 8 and 80 is to deny reality, to deny eyewitness testimony and to deny the confessions of the soldiers themselves, but that’s what you Reds do, you have to deny reality in order to believe in your religion.

    You are obviously beyond redemption, but I urge anyone reading this who wants to know the truth, to read Robert Conquest and Aleksander Solzhenitsyn as a start. The evils of the Soviets should never be forgotten.

  84. bluedog says:

    Nor should the evils of the U.S. and its subjects ever be forgotten for they still continue, while the other ones fade into history…

    • Replies: @Rich
  85. Rich says:

    The US, unfortunately for you anti-American swine, has been the greatest force for good in the history of the world. It has its blemishes, of course, denying the people of the South the right to secede was, no doubt, wrong, forced integration, abandoning its South Vietnamese ally, affirmative action, are all among its sins, but the US also helped spread the gospel of Capitalism, which lead to the greatest expansion of wealth and freedom mankind has ever known. Sadly, the fat, spoiled, upper classes of the US have forgotten the lessons their ancestors learned and are drifting into some kind of Randian, dystopian future, but there are forces standing up to the Reds of today, and hopefully, will see to it that they are condemned to that same dustbin of history so many other tyrannical regimes and ideologies have ended up.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Cyrano
  86. Cyrano says:

    I can see that you are retarded, so I’ll probably be wasting my time, but I’ll try to get through to your peanut sized brain.

    The only difference between US and their favorite “ally” in the middle east Saudi Arabia is that SA has tendency toward religion based jihad, while US has been on a capitalist jihad since WW2. Both the religious and the capitalist jihad are wrong because they are waged against people that don’t want them.

    Capitalist jihad has the same objective as Islamic jihad – to convert infidels to a doctrine that is alien to their beliefs. By expanding their base, capitalism and Islam want to ensure their survivability. Needles to say, Capitalism has been more aggressive.

    Where main adversary of Islam is Christianity, the main adversary of Capitalism has been Socialism. Most of US wars of aggression since WW2 have been against Socialist countries. Once they (if they) succeed erasing socialism (currently Venezuela is the target), they’ll declare an official amnesia – George Orwell style – and pretend that socialism never existed and capitalism is all that there ever was and it will be free to last forever and ever (not going to happen, but nice try).

    I also noticed that you are blabbering a lot about the gulag. Obviously, this is another instance where US capitalism has advantage. Because in US, instead of one gulag, you have 2. One is the prison-industrial complex – state owned and private, and the homelessness.

    The prison system is the most extensive in the world and together with the homelessness the number is at least 3 million members. Multiply by about 100 years of existence and you’ll figure whose gulag has produced more suffering – US or communist ones. Although you have to give them credit for the homeless gulag, this is the capitalist attempt at humanism.

    You see, homelessness is a free range gulag , tries to be more humane, like free range raised chicken instead of caged ones. The free range gulag lets the inmates wander around, they even allow them to engage in entrepreneurial activities such as pushing shopping cards full of empty cans collected on the streets, so they can make few cents, but even with that, a free range gulager in US has about as much hope as a communist one.

    Since you are such a great believer in capitalist jihad, why don’t you sign up and join the melee in the Middle East, where the lines between capitalist jihad and the Islamic one are really blurred at the moment. Maybe you can bring some clarity to the situation.

    • Agree: JLK
    • Replies: @Rich
  87. @Rich

    Communists while in power in Russia, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, etc., did commit crimes, many crimes. However, if someone committed theft, that person is a thief, not burglar, rapist, or murderer.

    Conquest wrote what his paymasters wanted. He, who pays the musicians, calls the tune, nothing new in it. Solzh was much worse: a liar and a coward . Some say he was NKVD agent, which is consistent with him always being in VIP camps, not where normal repressed people were kept. I don’t know, but as he was certainly scum, I wouldn’t be surprised if he were an informer of other scum. If someone wants the truth about Stalin’s camps, read Shalamov.
    You are, indeed, beyond redemption, so I give up.

    • Replies: @tac
  88. @Sergey Krieger

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. I think even psychiatrists can’t help this person, so let’s let him/her/it be.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  89. @AnonFromTN

    Agree. I have not even finished his ravings. The greatest force for good. Lol . I wonder do Vietnamese, koreans and Iraqis agree.

  90. Rich says:

    From the way you write, I can tell English isn’t your first language, but just to let you know, here in America it’s considered very uncouth to use the word “retarded”. It’s mostly something used by the uneducated and the ignorant. Unfortunately, you probably learned English watching the Maury Povitch Show or the Jerry Springer Show so you haven’t mastered the language yet. Try reading Evelyn Waugh, then get back to me.

  91. @Rich

    FYI: There are more than 6,400 languages spoken by men. Here is the list of the world’s most spoken languages by numbers:
    • CHINESE: 1197 million native speakers (MANDARIN: 848 million) …
    • SPANISH: 399 million. …
    • ENGLISH: 335 million. …
    • HINDI: 260 million. …
    • ARABIC: 242 million. …
    • PORTUGUESE: 203 million. …
    • BENGALI: 189 million. …
    • RUSSIAN: 166 million.
    As you can see (if you use elementary school math), English is not a mother tongue for more than 95% of the world population. So, your point is?

  92. @Rich

    My English is far better than your Russian if you speak any. What’s the point? Cannot respond intelligently to man’s post?

    • Replies: @Rich
  93. Bukowski says:

    The administration of Woodrow Wilson supported Britain from day one of the war despite its claims to being neutral. They lied through their teeth about the Lusitania. A large part of its cargo was contraband. Churchill, as First Lord of the Admiralty and Roosvelt as assistant secretary of the navy were co conspirators. The British had broken the German naval code and knew their were enemy submarines in the area where the Lusitania was sailing. Despite this the captain was ordered not to change course and an escort was not provided. The Lusitania was a sitting duck.

  94. Rich says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    The point, Comrade, is that the word “retarded” is particularly ugly and vulgar. It’s not the type of word decent folk use in conversation and when they do, it reveals an odious personality. Out of kindness, I tried to attribute the use of so unkind an adjective to the writer’s unfamiliarity with the English language. As you also aren’t a native speaker of English, it’s probably difficult for you to understand my point as well.

    Although I speak several foreign languages, my specialty is the Romance languages and I only spent a small amount of time on Russian back before the fall of the Soviet Union. Of course, since the US is the preeminent world power, one need only speak English to be successful, don’t you agree? Kind of like the Romans probably got by with just Latin back in their day.

    • Replies: @JLK
    , @EugeneGur
  95. JLK says:

    Cyrano shouldn’t have called you retarded and pea-brained, but I thought the rest of the post was interesting and worthy of follow-up.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @tac
    , @Cyrano
  96. @JLK

    Agree, personal insults aren’t a good substitute for arguments. However, some people simply provoke personal insults, as they repeat the same things, like a broken record, and are totally immune to arguments, logic, or evidence.

    • Replies: @Rich
  97. Hibernian says:

    Was this in his capacity as Holy Roman Emperor?

    • Replies: @Anon
  98. @NoseytheDuke

    Again, that had very little to do with US involvement.

  99. Rich says:

    And some, like yourself, for instance, are unable to make arguments that have logic or evidence and think jumping up and down, calling people names, wins the argument. Where I grew up, that didn’t even work in kindergarten, but have at it, you only reveal your real face.

    Well, at least you’ve got your “memo to Khrushchev” and that’s all you really need, right? Hilarious.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  100. tac says:

    I see that you agree with Cyrano, yet you seem receptive to information (claiming that you are objective in all things) when presented. May I offer words that were never uttered by me, but by others?

    If you are truly objective in your assertions then do examine the material (also note that publication houses do seem to have a vested interest in promoting material sufficiently in-line with their prior belief/agenda …. so I would not SOLELY rely on their decisions to PUBLISH material consistent with the prevalent AGENDA, unless you want to disregard competing POV without first investigating them …. your choice really but at least take the time to examine them and make up your own mind):

    If you speak Hebrew, even better as you can verify for yourself:

    Michel Hoffman:,7340,L-3527410,00.html

    • Replies: @JLK
  101. Anon[372] • Disclaimer says:

    No, as Archbishop-Elector of Cologne.

  102. tac says:

    You seem to ONLY consider the PUBLISHED POV. Have you EVER EVER EVER entertained the idea that books most favorable to the status quo, the ‘accepted’ version of said events were the ONLY ones made available by said authoritative principals of said ‘versions of events’?

    Certainly many books were banned and/or burned throughout History? What was that EXACTLY–most of the time that was the CAUSE for such repression? Is it because these studies contradicted the popular narrative, were considered heresy, or simply challenged the prevailing POV? What is it EXACTLY that caused the authorities of those ideas to have been banned, burned or made obscure? Any ideas you care to put forward?

    Have you EVER for once, considered the semi-plausible idea that these forbidden testaments COULD have some REVEALING information? Otherwise, why this over-the-top effort to discredit/repress the POV–EXACTLY LIKE SOME ON THIS VERY FORUM (you know exactly who you are who would like nothing more than or oppress and ban certain POV unfavorable to theirs)

  103. tac says:

    Solzh[henitsyn] was much worse: a liar and a coward

    What evidence do you propose for such wild accusations? Simply, you have NONE! Where was your outrage at his seminal work: Gulag Archipelago espoused during its publication??? There simply was NONE because it did FIT with your preconceived ideas of the world in that time! NOW that Two Hundred Years Together comes to the forefront of discussion does your ‘OUTRAGE’ directed at the deceased Solzhenitsyn come to the forefront. Shame on you!!!!

    NO, it is YOU who is the LIAR and a COWARD!!! Have you ever been in a prison camp like the GULAG? Of course not American Coward so-called ‘warrior’?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  104. JLK says:

    Cyrano’s post was about the USA exporting capitalism, and you’re changing the topic to Talmudic Judaism. This makes it look like you have a single-minded agenda. Just saying.

    Dual loyalties and ethnocentric nepotism can be a serious problem in society and no group should be above scrutiny in that regard. If the mainstream press or public officials shy away from investigating cases of these, we have a big problem that ought to be addressed.

    Can you identify problematic people you have known in real life, or are your views based mostly on what you have read in the media or on the internet?

    • Replies: @tac
  105. @tac

    I’ll try to answer you and that “Rich” person, although I know that “true believers” cannot be swayed by evidence, so I am writing this for the people open to arguments, not for the “true believers”.

    Nothing is ever banned unless it contains elements of the truth. That equally applies to things (books, videos, etc.) banned in Nazi Germany, Stalin’s USSR, or today’s US and Europe. At the time of Solzh writing, there were two authorities, the USSR and the US (both with their sidekicks), promoting exactly opposite narratives. So, whatever was banned by one side, was promoted by the other. Very few things told the truth about both, and therefore were frowned upon by both propaganda machines.

    Solzh liked to say that he wanted to get to the front and fight Nazis. Everyone who lived at that time said that there was nothing easier: even 17-year old kids pretended to be 18-year olds, and the authorities looked the other way and let them join the army. Yet Solzh moved further and further away from the front lines. This shows that, first, he lied; second, he was a coward who did not want to risk his life fighting Nazis. After his arrest he spent his time exclusively in VIP camps, which were quite different from places where normal prisoners were incarcerated (you can compare his description of the camps with that of Shalamov and many others who actually were in regular camps and described them fairly accurately).

    Solzh’a Archipelago provides lots of his opinions and no supporting evidence. Since that time numerous historians worked with archives and collected real evidence, which contradicts most of Solzh claims. Thing is, Stalin’s system, same as Hitler’s, was an ultimate bureaucracy: everything was counted, documented, and reported. Feeding prisoners, their guarding, and eventually their burials required allocation of money and resources, which were painstakingly recorded and reported to higher-ups. Solzh’s numbers are way out of whack with the reality revealed by the documents.
    Khruschev demanded a total tally of all those repressed under Stalin for his own ends, and he clearly indicated that he wants the numbers as high as possible. The memo he received did not quite meet his expectations: “ From 1921 until today 3,777,380 persons were convicted for counter-revolutionary crimes, including executed – 642,980 people, sent to prison camps for 25 years or less – 2,369,220 people, and sent to remote regions – 765,180.” These numbers also included Central Asian bandits (ISIS/Al Qaida of that time) and Nazi collaborators, so not all of those repressed were innocent. Khruschev had to exaggerate in his famous speech to the XXth congress of the Communist Party, as he needed much greater numbers to be used as tools for his struggle for the supreme power he coveted. The analysis of the archives by many historians in recent years yielded essentially the same numbers as that memo, nowhere near what the anti-communist propagandists wanted. So, they keep ignoring the uncomfortable evidence and keep peddling their tales. Pretty much like you both. The crimes were committed, but if someone murdered one person and is accused of murdering ten, the person is a criminal, but the accusation is a lie. That’s all there is to it.

    As to “Two hundred years together”, I did not read it because I read a lot of Solzh writings before and found them wanting. Life is too short to read lies, it’s not even long enough to read all existing true accounts. It is important to remember who exactly were “together” and who was not allowed anywhere near the trough. In tsarist Russia there was a Pale: Jews were prohibited from living in both capitals (Moscow and St Petersburg) and within thousands of miles of them. Only those who converted to Orthodox Christianity were allowed to be “together”. Needless to say, those were the worst scum of the Russian Jews. Bolsheviks abolished the Pale, and it should be clear even to you guys that the people who got near the trough (including those who served in Cheka/NKVD/MGB/KGB) were also the worst scum imaginable. Current Russian oligarchs, including Jewish ones, who are thieves and murderers without exception, are also scum. So, for all of these 200 years Russian authorities were “together” with the worst scum the Jews ever produced, whereas people with any decency were always excluded. Looks like the same applies to the US and all its vassals today. End of story.

    • Replies: @tac
    , @Ron Unz
  106. @Rich

    Well. cirano seemed to be spot on describing your analytical abilities. Any idea why Krushev asked for numbers? Most probably imho to smear stalin name as much as possible and after all that digging they came up with mere 600-700 000 over 32 years which included wars, insurrections and tectonic shift in Russian history. Information is coming t j.g ey Krushev actually was blaming stalin for what he himself was guilty of. That bald stupid motherfucker managed singlehandadly over the period of his rule to destroy momentum that stalin built and ruin ideology that was behind russian great leap into the future.
    Now back to you. I see you as being typical ignorant and arrogant American that sticks nose where it does not belong , expressing worthless not backed by anything opinions and views. I have not seen Russian yet who would start talking about certain aspects of American history giving advice or blaming or expressing outrage against something t j.g at happened in American or any other country history. But you guys are all over the place. But have no worries. You are being cut to your real size which in near future will see USA as a very local power.

    • Replies: @Rich
  107. I am truly amazed at the knowledge level of mostly US readers concerning the state of things in the USSR. its fascinating, and their repertoire of “useful idiots” is tremendous. And hardly any probably know any foreign language, how do they amass such insight. Are they mind readers ?
    Back in the seventies and eighties, everything was not fine and dandy in the USSR, but everything was not a mess either, their educational system was enviable, and healthcare better than the US today, but a Sony trinitron color TV was only available to few people as was other western stuff. And people did eat, although not as much crap as we do today in the west.
    I think the problem for Americans is it is obvious Russia is on the rise and the US in in decline.
    The Us has squandered everything, the only remaining tool it has got is war.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  108. @Den Lille Abe

    I would say f***k Sony trinitron. Whatever we had was a lot better but many did not value what they had. Now when one reads Russian blogs there is lots of nostalgia for real values that Soviet people used to have and which Russian citizens,clearly do not have anymore. Pushkin Golden fish fairy tale comes to mind immideatelly.

  109. Rich says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    The problem with many of you foreigners is that you assume that there weren’t many Americans paying attention to the Soviet Union during the Cold War. I realize that the Communist authorities kept most of the people as ignorant as they could to the great disparities between East and West, but many of us were doing all we could to support the freedom loving peoples of Eastern Europe and trying to help them escape the horror of communism. And here, you admit, without even perhaps realizing it, that even Khrushchev had reason to cover up the number of murders committed by the Communist Party of which he was a proud member.

    You make false assumptions about me, perhaps basing them on your own ignorance of history, projecting it on those of us who have spent a lot of time studying history, and paying attention to foreign affairs. I’m sure there are many Russians who have spent a lot of time studying American history and could probably come up with some point that many of us real Americans are unaware. Just because you don’t know something, doesn’t mean others don’t. Or, perhaps, you do know the truth, but have reasons for telling lies about communist murders.

    Remember, if America is “cut to real size” (the American expression is actually “cut down to size”, but I forgive your ignorance since you are a foreign speaker), many of you may come to regret it. If not for the US standing up to communist expansionism, we’d all be living under the horrible conditions of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact nations.

  110. Cyrano says:

    Thank you for your approval – despite my colorful language.

  111. @Rich

    Lol. You are being cut to real size alive. Hence your and your elites psychosis. I am writing exactly what I mean and need no input from you know who.

    • Replies: @Rich
  112. Rich says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “Cut to real size alive”? Come on, now I’m starting to think you’re just one of those spaghetti armed American pinkos trying to sound like an ignorant immigrant. You have to stop now. “Elites psychosis”? I’ve known a lot of Russian emigres and none of them sounded that ridiculous.

  113. Bukowski says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    I presume you mean the Nuremberg Tribunal 1945-46 ? This was nothing but a show trial for political and propaganda purposes. Even US Supreme Court Justice Harlan Fiske Stone referred to them as a “lynching party” and a “sanctimonious fraud”. The Soviet prosecutors tried to blame the German defendants for the Katyn massacre of Polish officers. In case you don’t know Gorbachev admitted in 1989 that the USSR committed this crime.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  114. chris says:

    Other than that — nothing. The League of nations was not what was envisioned by Pres Wilson and Congress bailed on the idea altogether. The penalties on Germany were largely the efforts of the Europeans victors.

    Really ?
    The Germans had surrendered to a great extent based on the promise of the promise of American fairness and Wilson’s 14 Points, only to find that the Americans had acquiesced to place the English and French in the catbird seat at the Versailles Peace Conference.

    Whether through design or incompetence, placing the fox in charge of the chicken coop, in no way exonerates the US from its role in the outcome of that peace treaty any more than driving robbers to a bank would make the diver blameless.

  115. @Rich

    First, Khruschev did not cover anything up, he actually exaggerated Stalin’s repressions for his nefarious purposes. He and his propaganda lied through their teeth about that, to make him look better than he actually was.

    As to the living standards, I lived for 33 years in the USSR and then 28 years in the US, so I can compare directly. Most Americans have totally false impression about living standards in the Soviet Union. They were lower than the US maybe by half, somewhat lower than in parts of Western Europe (say, Germany or the UK), but about the same as in Italy or Spain, and higher than in Greece.

    The structure of what was available differed. Education was free. Now I know that the education I’ve got for free from Moscow State University, with essentially free dorm in Moscow and a monthly stipend that was enough for food, but nothing else, was the same quality that Americans (myself included) pay more than $200,000 for in most decent Universities. I know that experimentally, as only very few of our grad students, mostly those who attended Ivies, have something comparable. The rest are woefully undereducated, so the whole first year of our grad program is essentially remedial: we teach them things they should have learned in college, but didn’t.

    School education in the USSR was many times better than in the US (my daughter went to school here, so I know first-hand), but that’s not too hard: there are virtually no first-world countries where school education is more pathetic than in the US. Even many third-world countries are way ahead of the US in this regard.

    Healthcare also was free, so if you got seriously sick, this didn’t bankrupt you, like in the US.

    Food was adequate, and if you had money to buy in the markets, rather than in state stores, it was better than in the US. Again, that is not hard: I don’t know any country with crappier food than the US. Even the UK comes ahead.

    Housing was incredibly cheap: I paid ~6% of my relatively low entry-level scientist salary for a one-bedroom apartment that people in the same income bracket here pay 25-40% of their salary for. Childcare was also fairly cheap: I paid another 6-7% of my salary for my daughter’s kindergarten, and nobody fined you extra if you were a few minutes late.

    Bottom line is, the quality of life in the USSR was not that different, and somewhat lower affluence than in several Western countries was amply compensated by the availability of basics, like healthcare, childcare, housing, and education, to all.

    The myth of huge difference in living standards was pushed by Western propaganda, and then by the Communist bosses who desperately wanted to steal a lot more than the Soviet system allowed. They achieved their goal, as the number of mega-rich mega-thieves (called oligarchs) in today’s Russia and other post-Soviet republics shows. A lot of people in the former USSR and Eastern Europe now see that they were duped, but it’s too late: as Russian saying puts it, the train has already left the station.

  116. @Bukowski

    Yes, Gorbi admitted this, and produced totally fake alleged memo from Beria to Stalin about it, which did not conform to the rules that existed in the USSR at the time. The very fact that Polish officers were shot with their documents on them, as well as total lack of NKVD documents regarding the massacre (which required significant resources that would have been painstakingly documented in NKVD archives, now open) shows that Katyn was a German crime. BTW, it was Nazi propaganda that launched the myth that it was done by NKVD.

    • Replies: @tac
    , @jilles dykstra
  117. @AnonFromTN

    Could not put it any better. My dad was making 450 a month and mother mother 240 were paying 22 for large one bed room apartment. My grandfather was earning 330 and grandmother 220 and were paying 25 for two bedrooms. I got one bed room free right upon graduation along with job in customs in Kazakhstan. I would only add that not everything is measured in material terms and we had a plenty of what was not material but worth a lot. Considering how those thieves are managing Russia thectime will come they will share destiny with their predecessors. I am reading various Russian blogs and divisiveness and anger is definitely there. It is growing. Putin and his team have been doing nice job in suppressing decent but I believe his policies are creating long term problems t hff at will lead to this regime getting overthrown.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  118. Rich says:

    Very odd. Millions of Soviet citizens fled this wonderful “paradise ” you remember from your youth. Every single Russian I’ve known, and I’ve known a lot, has told me a different story. Of course, like many poor people, they recall their youth with fondness, but to a person they’ve told me of poverty, shortages and mistreatment at the hands of a tyrannical government. If you lived well you wouldn’t have left or perhaps you had to leave for fear of reprisals after the fall of the evil communists.

    One way or another, your tale doesn’t ring true.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  119. @Sergey Krieger

    I am sure you remember, but most readers here never knew that, so I am giving these numbers for them.

    My entry-level salary was 143 in 1980 (fairly low, junior scientist with a PhD was paid 220, factory workers made even more). I paid 7.49 a month for my one-bedroom apartment (which I got the day I showed up for work in Pushchino). I paid 8 something per month for the kindergarten. Bread was 16-18 kopecks for 1 kg loaf, milk was 16 kopecks for 0.5 L packet. Meat was 1.90 per 1 kg in state store, 5-6 per kg at the market. Butter was 3.50 per kg, sour cream and cottage cheese much cheaper, hard cheese (real one, like in Europe, not the Kraft crap) was 3.50 to 4.50 per kg. Eggs ranged (depending on size) from 80 kopecks to 1.30 for 10. Fruits and veggies were seasonal, ridiculously cheap in August-September, but in winter you had to buy them canned at a higher price. A can continue, but it should be clear to any unbiased person that basic foods, housing, and childcare were quite affordable, whereas healthcare and education were free. Blue jeans or brand name sneakers were ~100, but you could buy normal pants and boots for 8-12. You won’t look chick, but you’d be adequately clothed.

  120. @AnonFromTN

    And happiness. Being confident in tomorrow.
    Being taken care of when sick and not getting bankrupted another one. I got severe case complication after pneumonia not healed properly. Basically immune reaction resulting in Rheumatism of the first degree, chorea, arrhythmia and a whole lot more. The moment parents took me to the hospital, doctor saw me even before making through check told that I must be hospitalized immediately. I spent the whole 1979-1980 at hospitals and children sanatorium. I got much better and eventually after few more years of ambulatory treatment I was finally cured. Then I got “lucky” in 1984 with Hepatitis with further complications, spent the whole year again hospital and home . My family would have been bankrupted were it to happen in Northern America. Soviet healthcare in both cases treated and cured me for free.
    Now I see lots of pics of poor sick kids in Odnoklassniki site. They need money to get treatment. Nice progress. But they sure wear blue jeans.

  121. @Rich

    It could only appear a paradise if you look from the jungle. It was not. However, many Russians moving to the West, particularly to the US, were playing whatever games it took to get freebies. So, they told gullible Americans about poverty, oppression, and suffering. If you swallowed their stories line, hook, and sinker, serves you right – after all, their freebies were paid for by your tax dollars. Unlike those liars, I never got a penny unearned, in the USSR or in the US.

    Soviet society had lots of drawbacks. First, equality was pushed beyond reason: those who contributed little to nothing still got free education, healthcare, cheap housing, etc. Second, you basically predetermined your whole career path by graduating with any major (which you actually had to choose when you entered college). There was little flexibility. As far as research (which I know best) goes, when I graduated I had a feeling that they taught me to swim but did not put any water into the pool. Besides, planned economy was also taken way beyond reason: we had to order reagents a year ahead. If I knew what reagents I am going to need a year from now, I’d be writing papers, not doing experiments. The US is still the best place in the world to do scientific research, although Congress is doing its level best to ruin the US science, so it may not last even until I retire.

    There were shortages (say, to get oranges or bananas for my daughter I had to stand in line for 1-1.5 h). The worst shortages started under Gorbi, when the elite decided to ruin the system to steal more.

    As far as freedom goes, I did not live in Stalin’s times. In the 1970-s and 80-s you could say pretty much whatever you wanted. I am pretty sure KGB had a file on me, but they never moved beyond that. In fact, they saw it as their duty to report to the higher-ups that everything is hunky-dory. So, it took a lot of effort to get arrested for political reasons (I know some people who did, took several years in each case). Even Western propaganda claimed in the 1980-s that there are ~10,000 political prisoners in the USSR (that had a population of ~300 million). There are more political prisoners in the US today.

    So, like any real society, it was not a Paradise. Neither it was Hell painted by paid propagandist for gullible ignoramuses. Every coin has two sides. There were good things and bad things, it was just life. Life ain’t fair, as you should know, if you really are an American.

    • Replies: @Rich
  122. @AnonFromTN

    The whole vedro of sweet cherries could be bought under 3. same 3 for 3 liters of honey. Pears, apples, vedro for 2-3-4. We canned our own fruit and vegetables. My dad was especially professional at salting everything . We had the while mixes of vegetables salted. The taste was to die for. This cannot be found anywhere here.

  123. Rich says:

    People don’t leave a free, prosperous country. Especially not in the numbers that fled the backward, poverty stricken Soviet Union. As soon as Gorby opened the doors, anyone who could gather up the rubles to pay off the government and get a ticket out, ran as fast as they could. I guess every Russkie I worked with over the years , had a drink with or whose kid played soccer with one of my kids was a liar, because they were looking for “freebies” from me? Don’t think so. I think you’re lying. I think you either had to leave, or you came here with big hopes and ended up a failure, so it’s made you bitter against the great nation that allowed you to immigrate. You’re a disgrace not only to yourself, but to your fellow countrymen who’ve come here and made an honest living and are capable of admitting why they left their homeland.

    Bottom line, you’re a foreigner, if you don’t like it here, you know where the door is, don’t let it hit you on the ass on the way out. Otherwise, shut up and salute the flag.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  124. @Sergey Krieger

    I am beginning to think that Putin calls his Western counterparts “partners” for a reason. His popularity rose when he restored the country after the depredations of Yeltsin years, but it was steadily declining until 2014, because he kept most of the thieves from the 1990-s near the trough. Then, just in time, the US and its vassals organized a coup in Ukraine, giving him a chance to take Crimea back where it belongs, and – lo and behold – his approval doubles, from low forties to mid-eighties. Discontent keeps growing, but now his propaganda has a trump card. They say: “look at Ukraine, do you want that?” Anyone with a brain greater than a peanut answers: “no way, we are not crazy”. Indeed, in Ukraine a bunch of thieves was overthrown only to bring an even worse bunch of thieves, who are also murderers, to power. Now the living standards there are plummeting, political repressions are reaching Hitler’s proportions, with no end in sight. Western hysterics play right into Putin’s hands: the country is in danger, sane people do not change horses during river crossing.

    It looks pretty much like Cuba: Castro regime would have never lasted this long without US aggression, embargo, and hysterics.

    There are two possible explanations: either Putin and the US with its sidekicks are playing a coordinated show for the gullible public, or Western elites are a lot dumber than they look.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  125. @Rich

    FYI, in terms of scientific success I achieved more than most, in terms of income I am in the top 3% in your country. However, I work in natural sciences, where you have to remain clear-headed and unbiased, and where you don’t buy the story that 2×2=5. I will be here as long as the US remains the best place to do research. If gullible ignoramuses ruin the US science, like they are now ruining the economy and the dollar, I’d have to move elsewhere. This would be much greater loss for the US than for me.

    • Replies: @Rich
  126. Rich says:

    You’re an ingrate. A decent person, taken in by a foreign country, allowed to prosper and enjoy all the rights of real citizens, would be thankful and appreciative of his hosts. Instead, you spit and whine and defame those who took you in. The good Russians I’ve known over the years were salt of the earth and would never be so ungrateful. Well, the good thing is, you’ve got to live with yourself, and that can’t be pleasant.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  127. @Rich

    Nobody took me in out of charity. I’ve never received an unearned penny in this or any other country. The US is using the services of many foreigners (more than half of the faculty in our Department are foreign-born) because it needs us to do research and teach graduate students. The US needs us because locals don’t want to or can’t do that. Should your plumber be grateful to you for the fact that he fixes your sink because you can’t do it yourself? Should the physician be grateful to you for the fact that s/he treats your illness because you can’t do it yourself? Or should you be grateful for services rendered?

    • Replies: @Rich
  128. tac says:

    Let me preface this, by apologizing for what some may view as a combative response to you previous comment. Thank you for a measured response. Having said that, your figures cannot be correct. I am not sure for your source material (Khruschev? Care to provide a link for our examination of this claim, otherwise this is merely an assertion on your part?) of the aforementioned deaths. Every source I’ve seen suggests to me that your figures are incorrect. Here is a source with empirical data that suggests your conclusions are off–way off!:

    To get some idea of the numbers involved, I surveyed the extent of genocide and mass killing by governments since 1900. The results were shocking: according to these first figures, independent of war and other kinds of conflict, governments probably have murdered 119,400,000 people, Marxist governments about 95,200,000 of them. By comparison, the battle-killed in all foreign and domestic wars in this century total 35,700,000.3
    For these reasons, with a grant from the United States Peace Institute, I undertook in 1988 a project to refine and elaborate my findings, to determine empirically the conditions and causes of government genocide and mass killing, and to assess the role of democratic versus autocratic institutions. The aim was to provide a comprehensive overview of such governmental murder, to test further whether the more democratic a nation, the more secure its citizens from such killing, and to publish the results in a major monograph.

    Among the first studies undertaken was that of Soviet genocide and mass murder. This was a very difficult task, for while widely different estimates were available on such Soviet institutions as the labor camp, such polices as collectivization or the Red Terror, or such events as the deportation of Poles in 1939-1941, few experts had tried to systematically accumulate and total them over Soviet history. To my knowledge, there are only two major works in English attempting to tally the toll in some systematic manner.6 Robert Conquest gives a carefully accumulated total for the Stalin years (at least 20,000,000 killed)7; and in his samizdat translated into English, Dyadkin, a Soviet geophysicist, did a demographic analysis of excess Soviet deaths, 1926 to 1954, and concluded that Soviet repression killed 23,100,000 to 32,000,000 Soviet citizens over this 29-year period.8

    Scattered here and there in one book or another are estimates of the number murdered. For example, Panin claims that 57,000,000 to 69,500,000 were killed, and says that estimates of authors in the West vary from 45,000,000 to 80,000,000 9; Solzhenitsyn mentions a 66,000,000 figure calculated by an ŽmigrŽ professor of statistics 10; and Stewart-Smith gives an estimate of 31,000,000 killed in repression 11. Like Dyadkin’s, some estimates have been based on demographic analyses, as Medvedev’s 22,000,000 to 23,000,000 total (1918-1953), or Dyadkin’s aforementioned figures.12

    For lack of a thorough statistical accumulation and analysis of Soviet genocides and mass murder from 1917 to recent years, I had to undertake at least a first effort in this direction. Initially, the result was to be a chapter in a monograph on 20th century genocide and mass killing. But it soon became clear that the Soviets themselves are responsible for so many genocides, and that so many different kinds of mass killings had occurred, that to unravel and present the detailed events and institutions involved and the related statistics would require a monograph itself. Thus this book.

    To best present the historical details, statistical analyses, and various figures and sources, and yet to make the book readable and useful to various publics, I have divided the book in the following way. First, the statistical data, sources, and analyses have been separated from the historical when, what, and why of the estimates. This provides an explanation and understanding of the deaths being reported, and historical narrative for those uninterested in the statistical details, while also making available the statistical material for specialists. Second, rather than put all the statistics in one, huge appendix at the end of the book, an appendix has been prepared for each historical period, thus keeping the historical narrative and related statistical material together. Third, each historical period has been treated as a chapter, with the associated statistical appendix at the end. Finally, an historical overview and analysis and presentation of the final results was made the first chapter, which constitutes an executive summary. Its appendices sum up the statistical data, compares these to estimates in the literature, and simulates the result of altering some important assumptions.
    However, in the narrative I have been less than dry and disinterested. I am clearly horrified by the nature and extent of mass killings being recorded; as a pacifist, I have been so overcome with emotion that at times I have had to put this work aside many times. Therefore, I did not restrain myself from peppering the narrative with adjectives like “monstrous”, “horrible”, and “evil”, and liberally used irony and sarcasm as rhetorical weapons against this inhumanity. The style of Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag seemed also appropriate here. But he wrote with a mission, and from the perspective of his own experience, and I am no Solzhenitsyn. Once I was able to unload myself onto a preliminary draft, I then thoroughly revised it, eliminating the more “egregious” adjectives and phrases. Nonetheless, a style remains which is more assertive, less “balanced”, than some specialists and historians might desire. If this be so, then I can only say that it is to others I must leave writing with dispassion about the murder of tens of millions of human beings.

    One final comment on the term murder. If anything may appear to display an anti-Soviet, less than professional bias, it may be the consistent accusation that the Soviets have murdered all these millions; and to use the term in the title of this book. I am doing this, however, because I believe the technical meaning of murder fits what the Soviets did.

    There is no doubt in my mind that your attempts to de-legitimatize Solzhenitsyn are intentional, blinded by personal beliefs and disingenuous. One may reasonably conclude that your defamatory attempts are indicative of a group effort consistent with smearing a persona as to deflect from his message.

  129. tac says:

    The very fact that Polish officers were shot with their documents on them, as well as total lack of NKVD documents regarding the massacre (which required significant resources that would have been painstakingly documented in NKVD archives, now open) shows that Katyn was a German crime.

    Now there can be no doubt whatsoever that you’re either in imbecile or a knowning liar; I tend to lean towards the latter.

    • Replies: @EugeneGur
  130. tac says:

    and you’re changing the topic to Talmudic Judaism. This makes it look like you have a single-minded agenda. Just saying.

    Fair criticism. I’ve only took this opportunity to presented it here–perhaps not the subject matter for such an argument–so with all humility I regret posting it here. Nonetheless, I was simply guided by your recent response to me: (just paraphrasing from memory) ‘This does not help to convince people still on the fence’.

    Having said that, did you at least try to examine all of the links (if not just some before giving up)? I am not trying to turn you, nor anybody else to think any differently than they have prior; I merely hope that you simply take the time and review a good-faith-effort to present information that would otherwise never see the light of day. Your choice really of what to do with it.

    Good day to you Sir; you appear, at the very least, to be able to examine such information and make do with it what you will; and for that I thank you for being receptive. Peace be upon you.

  131. Rich says:

    This is getting tiresome. You were brought in because by increasing the number of workers in your field, your paymasters were able to keep salaries lower. It’s called the Theory of Diminishing Returns as applied to labor. That you believe you,as an individual were necessary and couldn’t be replaced by a native, is comical, but obviously over your head.

    And again, you are a foreigner and a guest in this country, if you don’t like it,beat it. We really don’t need you.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  132. @AnonFromTN

    I believe Putin and current regime in Russia is deeply anti people and with this regime and people as elites Russia has no worthy future if any considering demographic situation which actually is getting worse. Economy rise of 2000’s was most probably result of growing energy prices and as soon as potential of that growth was used there is nothing they have been able to do. Regarding Russia restoration by Putin. He clearly needed to do something to be taken seriously by others. Without the country they are nothing. Hence they have been doing steps to increase state power. But all projects look like around various schemes to sell resources. Meanwhile population is being gradually squeezed and turned into slaves yet again. Considering population is now urban, it is effectively being squeezed out of existence and no amount of maternal capital will resolve this trouble, because it is tip into the ocean, compared to what was offered and given to people under Soviet power. Russia seemed to take very bad turn back in 90’s and continuing going along wrong path will only makes things worse. There is no solution there. Capitalism basically is killing everything it is touching now and Russia jumped on the bandwagon when she had system far more advanced but still in infancy. I liked one comparison which stated that while western capitalism of 80s was like fancy Ferrari, Soviet socialism was rusty and not perfectly built but still spaceship.
    BTW, did you read Vasserman regarding planned economy and computing power?

  133. @tac

    Solzhenitsyn is not only a liar but cretin too. Check demographic of the Soviet Russia and think how it could have been possible to kill so much of population and still win the Great Patriotic war and still have population left to have 300 million by the end of 80’s. Then you could ponder as to what was really done to Russian and Soviet people starting since 1991. That’s where killing off of the nation started.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  134. @tac

    Answering both your polite and impolite post. I hope you are aware that all your sources contain guesstimates and none supports them by real documents (or even fake documents, for that matter).
    Several sources on the numbers of those repressed from 1921 through 1953 in Russsian:

    Here are some numbers in English:
    Quote : “As a result, 960,000 people were recognized as innocent and rehabilitated — a third of the number of politically repressed as estimated at the time”

    For obvious reasons, very few documents were ever translated into English, as the propagandists wanted to perpetuate the myth they created and were not interested in any facts that debunked that myth.

    Here is the info that on some memos sent by Khruschev himself to Stalin with lists of people he proposed to repress, on which Stalin wrote: “Stop it, you idiot!”

    It was well known that the first thing NKVD did was take away documents of anyone arrested. No one was ever executed with the documents on him/her. Pretty much like German concentration camps: no inmate had any document, they were identified by numbers on their robes. If someone tells me that they found German camp inmates shot with documents on them, I would know that it is a fake.

    There are conflicting accounts (e.g., compare with

    Again, no documents or studies questioning the guilt of NKVD were translated into English, for the same reason as above: the propagandists wanted to perpetuate the myth they created and were not interested in any facts that debunked that myth.

    I am not saying that I know the Truth with a capital T about these things. I am only saying that neither do you.

    • Replies: @tac
  135. @Rich

    No answer on substance? Why am I not surprised?

    I regret to inform you that people who hired me, who invite me to join Editorial Boards of various scientific journals, who ask me to review other people’s papers and grants, have a different opinion.

    Or is yours a royal “we”? FYI, last time I checked the US Constitution, it said that the US is a Republic, so royal pronouns are inappropriate.

    • Replies: @Rich
  136. @Sergey Krieger

    I don’t think that Solzh was really stupid. He simply always remembered on which side his bread was buttered: in Stalin’s time, Kruschev’s time, Brezhnev’s time, in the US, and upon return to Russia. While that fully characterizes his morals, it does not necessarily characterize his intellectual abilities.

  137. EugeneGur says:

    I don’t even know how to respond.

    Then don’t. If you no nothing of the matter, why add your useless opinion?

    A “memo to Khrushchev”? Really? Is that the best you can do? Some bitter old commies in Russia,

    Yes, that was an official report requested by Khrushchev and provided to him by the Attorney General, Minister of Interior and Minister of Justice. It was quite detailed giving the numbers of all convicted and sentenced to various prison terms as well as to death. These numbers have been since supported by every investigation based on archival documents. Your wet fantasies about millions killed are supported by nothing and are, in fact, contradicted by many facts including simple arithmetics. But you don’t know arithmetics, do you?

    the Red Army didn’t commit mass rapes of every German woman between the ages of 8 and 80

    Every single one? Germany must be experienced a baby boom after the war, then, and is today populated by the Russian progeny. I don’t think the rapists would’ve bothered to use birth control. A good thing those of 80 didn’t need to worry about that, though.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @JLK
  138. @AnonFromTN

    German crime, unbelievable that even today this is asserted

  139. EugeneGur says:

    Of course, since the US is the preeminent world power, one need only speak English to be successful, don’t you agree?

    No. Surprise? I don’t agree with either of the two parts of your statement – neither with the premise, nor with the conclusion. The US is no longer the pre-eminent world power, and whatever power it has left is rapidly slipping away. Successful is a relative term. To be successful in what capacity? As an American lawyer? A tax accountant? Then, perhaps, you are right. But there are many other ways of life, of which you are likely not aware, and places where other people live and other languages are spoken. Your US-centered world is a lot smaller than you believe.

    • Replies: @JLK
  140. @AnonFromTN

    ” The myth of huge difference in living standards was pushed by Western propaganda, ”
    I still well remember the poverty in Prague in 1965, empty shop windows, nothing for sale, except gramophone records, the two I bought I still have.
    What possibly even was worse was how nobody seemed to be happy.
    Very few spoke english or german, an old man showed me with a sad smile how the roof of his pre WWII car had holes from rust.
    Hardly any new cars on the road.
    We visited the Skoda factory, where cars with bad road holding, rear engine, were produced for export in a primitive way.
    Food in our hotel, bad.
    Bathroom: dirty.
    The 1968 insurrection was quite understandble, in my opinion.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  141. @EugeneGur

    Read Charles A. Lindbergh, ´The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh’, New York, 1970 about Russian rapes.
    Or Cajus Bekker, ‘Flucht übers Meer, Ostsee Deutsches Schicksal 1945’, 1964, 1999, Augsburg how the Red Army and Air Force tried to kill refugees.

    • Replies: @EugeneGur
  142. @AnonFromTN

    ” Healthcare also was free, so if you got seriously sick, this didn’t bankrupt you, like in the US. ”
    Unless in the USSR you wanted decent healthcare, then you had to pay for yourself, if you could get it.
    Separate hospitals for party members, and those from the military.
    These privileged people could buy any western product in shops just for them, though, if I remember well, if one had got western money, illegal of course,one could also buy there.
    The problem with an economy with central control is that it cannot deliver the consumer goods the consumer wants, just the profit motive can do this.
    But of course, the profit motive would have meant that party members had to give up their functions.
    And so the USSR went on to collapse.
    Tv was an important contributor, a former inhabitant of Tsjechoslovakia told me, inside the USSR could be seen how people outside lived.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  143. JLK says:

    I did some more reading on the rape issue, and now think you may be right about the lack of state sponsorship.

  144. Ron Unz says:

    This shows that, first, he lied; second, he was a coward who did not want to risk his life fighting Nazis. After his arrest he spent his time exclusively in VIP camps, which were quite different from places where normal prisoners were incarcerated…Solzh’a Archipelago provides lots of his opinions and no supporting evidence. Since that time numerous historians worked with archives and collected real evidence, which contradicts most of Solzh claims.

    I know that you’ve frequently expressed your views that Solzh was a total scoundrel and liar, and all his work is rubbish.

    Frankly, back in the 1980s, I read all of his works and was extremely impressed by them, certainly including his novels, though admittedly that was in translation.

    Now it’s very possible that I was just hoodwinked by the anti-Soviet propaganda of that era, but it also seems possible that you were hoodwinked by the pro-Soviet propaganda, obviously extremely hostile to Solzh.

    But here’s my question. When Solzh died about a decade ago, Putin apparently gave him lavish praise, and declared that his Gulag would be made a required part of the standard Russian H.S. curriculum. If Solzh were such a liar and traitor and Gulag so dishonest and worthless, why would Putin have done that? Obviously Putin has better access to the true history of both the USSR and Solzh than any of us do.

    By that time, America’s ruling elites had spent decades being increasingly hostile to Solzh, and he’d almost become an un-person in the American MSM. So Putin certainly wasn’t currying any favor with the West, or I’d assume with the powerful Russian Oligarchs allied with it. In fact, since the MSM regarded Solzh as such a nasty (anti-Semitic?) Russian nationalist-reactionary, it probably hurt Putin’s image much more than it helped.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Tyrion 2
  145. ” I don’t think so. Whether American intelligence or even Franklin Roosevelt knew about the impending Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor, or not, once it occurred America was in World War II, and nearly everyone, from pre-war anti-interventionists like Charles Lindbergh to the most rabid Anglophile pulled together for the war effort.”

    Indeed, provoking Japan to attack was well calculated by FDR.
    Under 3000 deliberate deaths, and losing some scrap iron, to bring a nation in war mood, maybe a small price to pay.
    As to Lindbergh, he knew he had lost in preventing the war and accepted the unacceptible.
    I wonder what the writer wants to say, maybe just that FDR was an excellent war monger, even admired to this day by most people, despite the dozens of books that show FDR was one of the worst criminals ever on this world ?
    With no regret whatsoever.
    As Sol Bloom writes ‘the great accomplishment of Roosevelt was that he slowly prepared the USA people for war.
    Beard writes just the same, and shows how FDR did it.
    Sol Bloom, ‘The Autobiography of Sol Bloom’, New York 1948
    Charles A. Beard, ‘American Foreign Policy in the Making, 1932 – 1940, A study in responsibilities’, New Haven, 1946
    Churchill in old age seems to have had second thoughts.

  146. JLK says:

    The US is no longer the pre-eminent world power, and whatever power it has left is rapidly slipping away.

    We’re still the pre-eminent world power, but corrupt leadership and national myopia as the result of a co-opted media is probably going to bring that to a premature end.

    We’ve burned our goodwill around the world with our insistence on isolating Russia and Iran, and with unconditional support of Israel. We have a problematic national debt, and we’ll be burning more goodwill if we try to bully our European and Asian vassal states and use them as a piggy bank to bail ourselves out.

  147. @Ron Unz

    Let’s put things into context. A lot of literary works were highly praised in Nazi Germany or Stalin’s Russia, or in today’s US/Europe for that matter, but that does not make them true or their authors great. In this regard Putin’s regime is no different. For example, he praised Yeltsin and built a huge Yeltsin center in Yekaterinburg, even though many people in Russia have very negative views on Yeltsin, considering what he and Gorby did to the country as high treason. You’d think Putin should worry about the opinions of Russians more than about the opinions of him in the West, but his interests (or his view of his interests) apparently trumped popular opinions. The fact that he and his clique want to elevate Solzh just means that he sees it as being in his interests. It does not mean anything about Solzh.

    Putin is a politician first and foremost, so what he knows or believes does not affect what he says or does. He pursues his perceived interests, not the truth. Solzh’s Russian nationalism probably plays well into his hands, as current state propaganda in Russia pushes the narrative that the country is in danger, that the US and other vultures want to devour it. In my view, this is partially true, but he abuses this truth for his own ends (and the ends of allied oligarchs, who are all just as criminal as those who got out of favor with him, like Berezovsky or Khodorkovsky).

    Having no personal or even second-hand info, when I was very young and read “One day in life of Ivan Denisovich” I was also impressed. Then I read true accounts of the camps where the majority of prisoners were held in Stalin’s times (e.g., Shalamov’s “Kolyma tales”) and figured that Solzh also did not have personal experience. Later I learned that he spent his time exclusively in VIP camps. In fact, Soviet propaganda never mentioned that fact. Solzh was elevated by Khruschev’s and then demonized by Brezhnev’s regime, but neither told his true biography, as it did not reflect well on the Soviet system. The fact that such a self-serving person did well first in the USSR (under Khruschev) and then in post-Soviet Russia is a blemish on the image of the country.

    I read his other things (not all, but I read the Archipelago and the August of 1914) and found that he lies more often than tells the truth, and even when he does tell the truth, he always twists it. This is compounded by his obvious (and ludicrous) attempts to look like Leo Tolstoy. Maybe in some culture-poor place he could count as a great writer, but in Russian literature he is a midget, not big enough to be even the third-tier writer. If Tolstoy is an elephant, as a writer Solzh is smaller than a gnat. His ridiculous airs along with propensity to lie determine my view of him.

  148. EugeneGur says:
    @jilles dykstra

    You can fill the entire site with references like that. Quite a few people made their careers telling stories like that – just like many do today with their effusions about the Russian “military grade” super-poison or Russian interference in everybody’s pristine democracy.

    As to the rapes and bombing the refugees as well as killing POWs, executing wounded in hospitals or medical personnel, bombing hospital and sinking medical ships – there ample evidence that the German Nazis did all that. I doubt very much the Red Army would waste ammunition or time on refugees – after all, it had business to conclude, which was defeating the German Army, since there was nobody else to do that.

    But if some refugees did get in the line of fire, as I am sure some did, you’ll forgive me, I hope, that my heart doesn’t bleed for them. In Russia, the German Nazis practiced a non-discrimination policy: they bombed civilians including refugees with the same zeal as the military. I think it’s only fair if they got to taste a tiny portion of their own medicine.

  149. @jilles dykstra

    Yes, some were more “equal” than others. Party gurus and military brass had their separate healthcare system. They did have fancier gizmos, but not necessarily better doctors, as positions in those privileged hospitals were also reserved for the privileged, mostly children of those same gurus and brass who chose medical school. Normal non-privileged people had free basic healthcare, including vaccinations, and it worked pretty well. For example, there were no epidemics of infectious diseases (like now in Ukraine), and the mortality due to breast cancer among women in the USSR was lower than it is now in the US.

    Central planning has a lot of drawbacks, as it reflects the intellectual level of those who plan, which was pretty dismal. Yet the market is no panacea, just snake oil: it works best with things that you buy repeatedly, like socks or nails, and does not work for the consumer with things that you get maybe once in your lifetime, like higher education or heart surgery. It works well for the providers, though: they will cheat you out of all your money. Another drawback of the system driven by pure greed (market) is obvious today in the effects of MIC in the US and Europe: it’s a voracious parasite that is killing the host.

    In fact, as many Russians and Eastern Europeans learned the hard way after moving to the West, TV and movies largely created a myth. There is a joke about a Russian immigrant in New York in a poor dilapidated apartment. His kid asks: “Are you sure we got to the right place? I’ve heard that New York is a very rich city”.

  150. @jilles dykstra

    I was in Prague in 1989, and it looked pretty good (comparing to the US and Europe that I travelled extensively later). Then I was in Prague 4-5 years ago, and it did not look much better. What surprised us was very cheap (by the US standards) concerts of classical music. I can count just one advantage: all waiters in all cafes and restaurants spoke English, German, and Russian. I was in Budapest and Zagreb just a few years ago, and both cities looked pathetic, worse than provincial Russian cities, with very poor populace and even few high-quality food items in grocery stores (I guess, too few buyers of those).

    Cars are a mixed blessing. Whereas in Europe (including Russia) and in several US cities (e.g., New York or Boston) you have them by choice, as you can use public transportation, in most places in the US you just must have the car. Public transportation is pathetic or non-existent, so you need a car even to get to the charity soup kitchen.

    As far as bad food goes, nobody beats the US. Even the UK, with the worst food in Europe, has better food. It is hard to find a tomato that tastes like tomato, or a cuke that tastes like a cuke. Not to mention that many Americans sincerely believe that the crap Kraft sells is cheese and that Budweiser is beer. Nobody who tried the real thing can possibly think that.

    • Agree: byrresheim
  151. @EugeneGur

    Utter rubbish.

    At least half of the fallen red army soldiers could have survived the war had rational military tactics been employed.

    The treatment of liberated Russian prisoners of war by their own countrymen was and is beyond contempt.

    This is not an excuse for German crimes, but don’t blame Germans for the utter lack of responsibility and basic decency of the then ruling class in Russia.

    • Replies: @EugeneGur
  152. Considering the numbers of victims of the wall he used it was not really clever. What however amazing is how many people willingly believed this sort of outrageous numbers which are in conflict with demographic reality of the time.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  153. @Sergey Krieger

    In the course of human history people believed all sorts of improbable, impossible, and simply ridiculous things. Nothing new here.

  154. Rich says:

    The “we” I refer to are the real Americans, the people who love this country and treasure what it stands for. You’re nothing but a mercenary, if your story about yourself is true. You abandoned your native country, you say, in 1990, just when Russia needed its best people to help pull it out of years of poverty and degradation under the evils of totalitarian communism. You’ll never be an American, and you, who abandoned your motherland when it needed you, can never really be a Russian again. A stateless man, you rant and rave against the nation that took you in, because you either couldn’t succeed in your homeland, or were no longer wanted there. Must be tough being you.

    No one leaves their homeland if they are successful. You can tell all the lies you want, but most of the folks reading this know the truth. You should be on your knees every night thanking God that this great nation was kind enough to let you partake in our great wealth. Stop biting the hand that feeds you, cur.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  155. tac says:

    Thanks for the links, I’ll examine them when I have some free time.

    Re: Katyn:

    If you are genuinely unsure as to who bears responsibility, then I hope you’ll accept my sincere apology for my impoliteness.

    I am not sure if you ever heard of the Madden report which conducted a investigation into the Katyn massacre and concluded that the NKVD was responsible. The records can be found in the national archives:

    Later, on September 18, 1951, the United States House of Representatives established the Select Committee to Conduct an Investigation and Study of the Facts, Evidence, and Circumstances of the Katyn Forest Massacre, known as the Madden Committee after its chairman, Rep. Ray J. Madden of Indiana. The committee assembled records relating to the massacre and its aftermath, including records from the files of the State and War Departments, in addition to hearing extensive witness testimony. Their purpose was to determine which nation was responsible for the atrocities and whether any American officials had engaged in covering up the massacre.

    The Madden Committee determined unanimously that the NKVD was responsible for the executions, and recommended a trial before the International World Court of Justice. The question of an American cover-up was less clear cut. In its final report, the committee concluded that American officials failed to properly evaluate and act upon clear danger signals in Russian behavior evident as early as 1942. In addition, the committee found that American policy toward the Soviet Union might have been different if information deliberately withheld from the public had been made available sooner.

    In September 2011, the National Archives responded to a letter to President Barack Obama by Representative Marcy Kaptur and Representative Daniel Lipinski requesting the identification, declassification and public release of all records of permanent value in the custody of the US Government relating to the events at Katyn. The National Archives via the National Declassification Center subsequently made it a priority to process and declassify all known documents related not only to the initial events of the 1940s but also to the Madden Committee and the ongoing American response. This special effort has led to the declassification of over a thousand pages not previously released to the public, and the launch of a project to highlight Katyn material declassified by the National Archives over the previous few decades.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @JLK
  156. @Rich

    I thought that in any self-respecting country clinically deluded people were confined. You proved that this assumption is wrong. So, I am not writing this for you, but for the sane non-deluded people who can appreciate facts.

    I left in 1991, when Russia was destroyed by traitors, when relatively normal life was replaced by daily struggle for survival, which millions of people in the 1990-s lost. The population of Russia kept growing until 1991 (some evil totalitarianism and poverty) and then dropped precipitously in the 1990-s (great democratic prosperity). I left when the country was robbed blind by the vultures, domestic and foreign (one of the latter was Browder, now hiding from justice in the US). Today, when Russia is reviving, the same greedy vultures (those that America stands for) are gnashing their teeth because they weren’t allowed to steal even more.

    America would have been a great country if it did not become an Empire, trying to dictate to the whole world what to do and having tantrums when any country disobeys. As it is, it’s gone too far to turn around: the influence is slipping, the Empire is gripped by an impotent rage, and in its insanity it is speeding up its own demise, ruining the economy, running up an impossible debt, and destroying the last vestiges of its power: the dollar, WTO, SWIFT, etc. Even pathetic European vassals started murmuring.

    I do hope that the US still finds the strength and the will to hang its globalist elites, stops wasting its treasure in the insatiable maw of its MIC, and becomes a normal country that can exist along others without plunging the world into suicidal WWIII. With that kind of country I can identify, but not with the Empire that blatantly interferes in everyone’s affairs, lies incessantly, supports the worst scum imaginable all over the world, and murders millions of people in foreign lands for the profits of its MIC and other greedy vultures.

    • Replies: @Rich
  157. @tac

    If memory serves, 1951 was the McCarty era. It suggests to me that any findings of any congressional body of that time should be taken with a grain of salt (likely with a bag of salt). As an example, let me remind you of the Warren commission, which came to the conclusions about the murder of President Kennedy so odiously false that now even the US propaganda studiously avoids this topic.

    • Replies: @tac
  158. JLK says:

    The Germans invited international observers to Katyn when they exhumed the site, and it was obvious from the state of decomposition of the bodies that the Soviets were responsible.

    • Replies: @tac
    , @EugeneGur
  159. tac says:

    The Soviets themselves, under Gorbachev ADMITTED their responsibility for the massacres:

    According to minutes , from the March 5, 1940, session of the Politburo, the N.K.V.D., the Soviet secret police organization that was the forerunner of the K.G.B., was instructed to carry out “the supreme punishment — execution by a firing squad” against “14,700 former Polish officers, officials, landowners, policmen and gendarmes, held in camps for prisoners of war,” as well as another 11,000 “members of different subversion and espionage organizations, former land- and factory owners, former Polish officers, former officials and former clergymen, arrested and held in jails in the western regions of Ukraine and Byelorussia,” the republic now known as Belarus.

    The minutes from the Politburo meeting, presumably headed by Stalin, were contained in two folders of top-secret papers from the party’s archives, copies of which were produced today in Moscow by Mr. Kostikov.

    “These files contain documents that clearly demonstrate that the Communist Party was the direct organizer of the annihilation from the face of the earth of the Polish officer corps,” said Mr. Kostikov, who showed a copy of an order directing the execution of 295 generals and colonels, and 2,080 majors and captains.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  160. tac says:

    That is correct and furthermore the CIA also determined the NKVD were responsible:

    Stalin was anxious to settle with Finland so he could turn his attention to Poland and the Baltic countries, which the Red Army would soon occupy and the NKVD would “pacify” using terror, deportations, and executions. Militarily, the war was over by late February, though a peace agreement was not signed until March. NKVD interrogations were completed about the same time. The Poles were encouraged to believe they would be released, but the interviews were in effect a selection process to determine who would live and who would die. On 5 March 1940, Stalin signed their death warrant–an NKVD order condemning 21,857 prisoners to “the supreme penalty: shooting.” They had been condemned as “hardened and uncompromising enemies of Soviet authority.” 6

    The Killing Field
    During April-May 1940, the Polish prisoners were moved from their internment camps and taken to three execution sites. The place most identified with the Soviet atrocity is Katyn Forest, located 12 miles west of Smolensk, Russia. For years historians assumed that the grounds of an NKVD rest and recreation facility were both an execution and burial site for nearly a fifth of the unfortunate Poles who found themselves in Soviet captivity. Post-Cold War revelations, however, suggest that the victims were shot in the basement of the NKVD headquarters in Smolensk and at an abattoir in the same city, although some may have been executed at a site in the forest itself. In any event, the Katyn Forest is–and will probably long remain–the main symbol of the atrocity, even if it was not the actual killing field.

    Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to “Comrade Stalin” proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin’s handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kaganovich, both favoring execution.

    The Katyn Forest massacre was a criminal act of historic proportions and enduring political implications. When Nazi occupation forces in April 1943 announced the discovery of several mass graves, propaganda minister Josef Goebbels hoped that international revulsion over the Soviet atrocity would drive a wedge into the Big Three coalition and buy Germany a breathing space, if not a victory, in its war against Russia. (A headline in the May 1943 Newsweek read: “Poles vs. Reds: Allied Unity Put to Test Over Officer Dead.”) But Goebbels miscalculated. Despite overwhelming evidence of Soviet responsibility, Moscow blamed the Germans, and for the rest of the war Washington and London officially accepted the Soviet countercharge. When the Polish government-in-exile in London demanded an international inquiry, Stalin used this as a pretext to break relations. The Western allies objected but eventually acquiesced. Soon thereafter, the Soviet dictator assembled a group of Polish Communists that returned to Poland with the Red Army in 1944 and formed the nucleus of the postwar government. Stalin’s experience with the Katyn affair may have convinced him that the West, grateful for the Red Army’s contribution to the Allied military effort, would find it hard to confront him over Poland after the war.

    Professor Stanislaw Swianiewicz was the sole survivor of Katyn. He was waiting to board a bus to the forest area when an NKVD colonel arrived and pulled him out of line. Swianiewicz was an internationally recognized expert on forced labor in Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany, who had been born in Poland when it was still part of the Russian empire, and had studied in Moscow. He ended up in Siberia, and after the war emigrated to the United States, where he taught economics at the University of Notre Dame. At least one CIA analyst remembers the professor from his days in South Bend.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  161. anon[355] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ben Klockner

    There is absolutely nothing defensive about America’s defense policy.

  162. anon[355] • Disclaimer says:

    America’s involvement was disastrous.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  163. Rich says:

    Well,at least you admit you deserted your motherland when she was in her greatest need. That’s a step in the right direction. Compare your running away like a mongrel dog to that of the great Solzhenitsyn who returned when his nation needed him.

    This great man,who received the Order of the Red Star for his service in WWII, then spent 8 years in prison for criticizing Stalin,had the courage to fight to rebuild Russia, while runners like you echo the communist pamphlets the KGB published against him.

    Free countries, unlike communist dictatorships, don’t try to imprison people in asylums for disagreeing with them. That sentiment reveals you as a true communist.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  164. @tac

    Problem is, that document did not conform to the rules of that time. Stalin’s bureaucracy was very rigid, innovations were severely discouraged. Besides, all those in Stalin’s retinue (Politburo was no more than the group of the closest courtiers) were the ultimate scum. They were cowards (they would call themselves prudent, I am sure). They would never stick their necks out with their support of anything until Stalin made the decision. Then they’d voice their unanimous agreement. Collective expression of opinions would be viewed by Stalin as a plot. Heads would roll.

    So, whoever faked the document did a sloppy job. Khruschev would have faked that document better: he knew exactly how Stalin’s court operated.

    • Replies: @tac
  165. @tac

    Man, you spun such a plausible tale, and then ruined it all by the last paragraph. That could have never happened in real life.

    If NKVD got an order to execute prisoners, in Stalin’s time no NKVD colonel (or a general, for that matter) would pull a prisoner aside and spare him. Not only he wouldn’t have saved anyone, he’d sign his own death warrant. NKVD officers snitched on each other all the time, because in that period the most efficient way of moving up the ladder was to have your commanding officer shot as a “spy”, “traitor”, “counter-revolutionary”, or some other “enemy of the people”. Thus, even if some of them felt like doing something human, they couldn’t afford to do it in full view of others. So, sorry to disappoint, but that account is a pure lie.

  166. @Rich

    The first rule of psychiatry: never argue with a patient. So, I won’t argue with you.

    • Replies: @Rich
    , @Sergey Krieger
  167. EugeneGur says:

    Now there can be no doubt whatsoever that you’re either in imbecile or a knowning liar; I tend to lean towards the latter.

    Yes, go right ahead and attack a person instead of dealing with his argument – this is the way an intelligent and truthful person is to behave.

    You can call Katyn whatever you want – genocide, massacre, gulag, any epithet you can come up with, if it makes you feel better. You can also list all the references, Polish, in particular, they’ll all tell the same thing – the Soviet are evil, murderers, etc. No one will ever mention inconsistencies, doubts, possible alternative explanations – that’s how your “freedom of press” works. They aren’t interested in the truth.

    However, the fact remains: the picture of that burial in entirely inconsistent with the NKVD practices. Not only the corpses of the Polish prisoners were found with their personal documents but also in uniforms, which was against the rules in the Soviet POW camps. Furthermore, they had some of their personal belonging with them, which is again a no-no. They were shot with the German weapons. German bullets were found that weren’t even manufactured at the supposed time of the execution. These are just examples of inconsistencies and questions – there are many more.

    I’d accept any answers supported by the facts whether I like it or not. I’ll be damned if I accept a slander based on nothing but a prejudice and political designs of Poland or someone else.

    • Replies: @tac
  168. EugeneGur says:

    The Germans invited international observers to Katyn when they exhumed the site, and it was obvious from the state of decomposition of the bodies that the Soviets were responsible.

    This is the most ridiculous statement imaginable – like every corpse had it written on it “I was shot by the Soviets”?
    Nothing like that can possibly be obvious from the state of decomposition of the bodies. It could only be obvious if the answer was pre-determined, which it probably was.

  169. @anon

    I guess if you are the losing side, in this case Germany, one might assess, the introduction US forces a disaster.

    But based on the data — there is little evidence that the US is responsible for European choices, including the choice to embrace Chancellor Hitler. There were plenty or reasoned and cool heads that countered communism and made it clear that the Jews in Germany had been every much German as non-Jewish citizens. I think the then Chancellor called Chancellor Hitler a “mere bounder” or words to that effect.

    Th public decided otherwise.

  170. EugeneGur says:

    You are completely right – what you wrote is utter rubbish. You are one of those armchair generals, aren’t you?

    The military tactics employed was rational enough to defeat the army that subjugated the entire Europe. And the entire Europe either collaborated with or worked for that army. That army also kicked your British and American boys in the balls so hard they begged the irrational Stalin to save their pretty Western asses.

    The ruling class of Russia at that time was responsible enough to defend its country from the invading enemy instead of surrendering it to the enemy without a fight as the French did or running away to London abandoning its army as did the Polish.

  171. tac says:

    Shortly after invading Poland from the east on 17.09.1939 NKVD organizes the arrests, transport, and interment of Polish officers/nobility/clergy in the territory of West Ukraine/Belarus or else transports them to other Soviet occupied camps while separating out the most hardened/resistant elements for ‘special’ treatment.

    Now let me get this straight ….

    Let’s put aside both the German and Soviet investigations of the time, despite the independent Red Cross investigation, a separate US Congressional investigation, Gorbachev and Soviet parliment, at the time, ADMITTING their complicity (along with official Soviet signed orders of killings (which you claim are somehow fake–WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE to the contrary to back up your wild accusations–, and the CIA investigation ALL pointing to the NKVD as the perpetrators of these heinous executions, we should just brush all of this aside to simply take YOUR word for it ….. HAHAHA…!!!!!

    You people are simple grasping at straws …. pathetic!

    [pdf pg 4 (actual pg 221)]:
    Based on the forestry investigation, dates found in some of the personal documents, and the condition of the individuals that were examined, it was estimated by the investigating committee that the executions were carried out three years prior to the investigation commencing. Under this finding, it also was pointed out that Germany had not invaded the Soviet Union until 1941, and that the German ammunition in question had been sold to the Soviets several years previously. It was stated that the available evidence indicated that the Russians had committed the crime. The Polish Red Cross independently arrived at the same conclusions [5,12,13]
    In 1950, ten years after the killings had occurred, the 82nd Congress of the United States appointed a Select Committee to address the Katyn massacre and their findings indicated that the People’s Commissariat for Foreign Affairs had conducted the killings [14]. Since then, the Russian government has acknowledged their involvement and responsibility in the Katyn massacre. Although the investigation of the Katyn massacre is far removed from the work carried out by modern forensic teams, it can be considered to be one of the first examples of the utilization of international experts in order to investigate a serious breach of human rights and arrive at an impartial verdict of the events.


    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  172. Rich says:

    Geez, you’re a physicist, a psychiatrist, an editor, you’re really something else…

    I gladly accept your surrender. Hopefully, you’ve learned your lesson, when you’re a guest in someone else’s house, or country, don’t start squawking.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  173. tac says:

    Examine the plethora of documents I presented than come back and try to refute it.

    Just because German-made bullets/pistols were used does not equate to Germans being the ones pulling the triggers. Prior to the invasion of Poland by both Germany AND the Soviets they both signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to which military sales/trade was common. The German-made weapons were probably more efficient at these mass-killings, but it does not mean Germans were responsible nor had the motive, were not in that part of Western Ukraine/Belarus at the time of the atrocities, nor has there any single document/order originating from the German third reich ever been discovered to implicate the Germans–whereas there exist SIGNED orders bearing the top NKVD officials signatories.

    Detailed information on the executions in the Kalinin NKVD prison was provided during a hearing by Dmitry Tokarev, former head of the Board of the District NKVD in Kalinin. According to Tokarev, the shooting started in the evening and ended at dawn. The first transport, on 4 April 1940, carried 390 people, and the executioners had difficulty killing so many people in one night. The following transports held no more than 250 people. The executions were usually performed with German-made .25 ACP Walther Model 2 pistols supplied by Moscow, but Soviet-made 7.62×38mmR Nagant M1895 revolvers were also used. The executioners used German weapons rather than the standard Soviet revolvers, as the latter were said to offer too much recoil, which made shooting painful after the first dozen executions. Vasily Mikhailovich Blokhin, chief executioner for the NKVD—and quite possibly the most prolific executioner in history—is reported to have personally shot and killed 7,000 of the condemned, some as young as 18, from the Ostashkov camp at Kalinin prison, over 28 days in April 1940.

  174. @tac

    Nobody arrested by NKVD had his/her documents with them. This was the rule: documents, uniforms, or any personal items were taken away from prisoners, pretty much like Nazis took these things away from concentration camp inmates. Whoever was found with documents, or in a uniform, or with any personal items on them was not arrested by NKVD. These are plain facts. FYI, these facts do not reflect well on NKVD, actually put it in the same league as Gestapo. But NKVD had strict rules and they obeyed those rules, otherwise NKVD officers would be shot as “spies”, “traitors”, “counter-revolutionaries”, or some such thing. If these dehumanizing rules get in the way of myth creation, I am not responsible for that. In consolation, I can only tell you that in the course of human history people believed all sorts of improbable, impossible, and downright ridiculous things. Enjoy the company.

    • Replies: @tac
  175. @Rich

    Wow! I am a physicist. That’s news to me. Another delusion? In fact, I am only a lowly biochemist and I never stated otherwise. Not a psychiatrist, but I know a few at our University. They didn’t teach me their craft (not that I ever wanted to learn it), but they taught everyone willing to listen how to deal with their patients (see #169).

  176. @AnonFromTN

    It looks like the whole mad house is on picnic. It is better to be quiet.

  177. tac says:

    It looks like AnonFromTN and his accompanying cadre will never admit when they have been so thoroughly defeated in a debate regarding the Katyn massacre case and its respective perpetrators. This becomes more apparent by their cognitive dissonance when faced with undeniable evidence on NKVD guilt accompanied by Soviet admission. One can come to their own conclusion as to the real motivations for these individuals–who against mountains of evidence refuse to give even a inch. One should, and in fact, one would be wholly justified to extend their ‘motivations’ when it comes to portaying/defaming one Alexandr Solzhenitsyn.

    Having said that, any interested, objective reader is free to examine of links I’ve provided and, will, most likely be left with a similar conclusion.

  178. @tac

    Listen imbecile, sane people do not argue with such as you because it is useless. No matter what amount of facts presented you will continue doing same. You know, it is sign of insanity. Get help and get better.

    • Replies: @tac
  179. @tac

    Reminds me of “mountains of evidence” produced by Stalin’s system to convict his competitors in “open” trials in the 1930-s. Quantity is no substitute for quality. For example, a ton of Kraft crap does not substitute for a pound of real cheese.

    • Replies: @tac
  180. EugeneGur says:

    The German-made weapons were probably more efficient at these mass-killings, but it does not mean Germans were responsible

    But does it mean otherwise, that they didn’t do it? I don’t think so. Besides, high caliber German bullets were found that were never ever used in the Soviet Union.

    (the Germans) nor had the motive, were not in that part of Western Ukraine/Belarus at the time of the atrocities

    Of course not. The Germans were little pussycats white and fluffy and never have a slightest motive to kill anyone – but somehow they did kill million. This is a ridiculous argument, and you know it.

    As to the time of the event, you don’t know precisely when it happened. There was a very narrow window when the NKVD could have theoretically done this: from May 1941 to July 1941. No one, but no one established the time with such precision.

    whereas there exist SIGNED orders bearing the top NKVD officials signatories.

    No, it does not. The document you are probably referring to is NOT an order, so no such thing exists, but a memo from Beria to Stalin, and it is such a clumsy forgery that its authenticity has not been recognized by anyone – expect for those who desperately want to believe this tale.

    My friend, you’d do better not believing everything you are told that easily. Hopefully, the Russia people will convince our government to restart the investigation in the matter, taking advantage of the new available forensic technologies, and make it a real investigation and not some propaganda stunt. Until then, hold your horses.

    • Replies: @JLK
    , @tac
  181. @tac

    P.S. Stalin’s “evidence” included “confessions”, just like yours. Are you saying that we should conclude that his trials were fair and the defendants were convicted rightly? I, for one, wouldn’t agree with that.

    • Replies: @tac
  182. JLK says:

    What is your opinion of the veracity of the broader operation of the NKVD against the Polish people, dating back to the 1930s?

    • Replies: @tac
    , @EugeneGur
    , @tac
  183. tac says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    IMBECILE??? NO, it is you who is a compelete hasbaRAT imbecile … what FACTS have you or your other agents produced to refute the FACTS I’ve preseneted? NONE!!!

    Therefore it is YOU and your CADRE, lead by your hasbaRAT leader AnonFromTN who is utterly clueless and has NO material WHATSOEVER to refute what I’ve presented.

    HaHa … you people are simple out-of-touch and clueless … do continue, however as you expose your ignorance for the reader to see!

  184. tac says:

    WHAT have you produces in this ‘debate’??? NOTHING … your assertions are simply WORTHLESS without corroborating ‘evidence’ …. I pegged you right in the outset: a hasbaRAT! You’ve refuted nothing less than your animus to truth tellers ….

  185. tac says:

    Another member of the cadre exposes him/her self without ANY SHRED of evidence to counter my posts …. you people are simply pathetic in your quixotic assertions (LIARS in every sense of the word).

    No evidence exists because YOU simply deem so …. a worthless tripe indeed–absent of any reason!

    • Replies: @EugeneGur
  186. tac says:

    Here let me spell it out for you: SOVIETS ADMITTED THEIR OWN GUILT –when confronted with mountains of evidence of their involvement.

    When you throw wild accusations–with NO PROOF WHATSOEVER corroborating YOUR claims–we should somehow believe you on your account …. how exactly? HaHaHa! …. you even said it yourself that someones’ word–in-and-of-itself–is no proof at all …. sage advice (except you do not abide by what you preach for others) …. where is this kind of BEHAVIOR prevalent in others’ …. hmmmm?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  187. tac says:

    Perhaps you are just at the beginning of your journey, yet you might want to learn–and learn quickly–that these agents that you submit inquiries to are simply unconcerned by you. In fact, they spend the bulk of their time trying to LIE and demean what truthers speak of …. good luck …. will you ever learn this valuable lesson???

  188. @Rich

    Do you know who was considered an “enemy of the people”?

    Nikolai Vavilov, victim of Lysenkoism.

    Although his sentence was commuted to twenty years’ imprisonment, he died of starvation in prison in 1943.

    Not technically executed, so not amongst the “600-700 000 execution” number.

  189. @tac

    The very fact the Katyn site was excavated and the bodies identified proves the Germans didn’t do it. The Germans are the top experts at destroying any trace of bodies at execution sites and of their operational security of concealing the locations of where such executions occured.

  190. @tac

    “Jupiter, you are angry, therefore you are wrong.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

  191. EugeneGur says:

    What is your opinion of the veracity of the broader operation of the NKVD against the Polish people, dating back to the 1930s?

    NKVD issues a number of orders in 1936-37 aimed at counteracting espionage and “anti-revolutionary” activity by various elements. The order #00485 known as “Polish order” aimed at combatting the activity of specifically Polish espionage and diversion groups and of Polish Army Organization. There was also a similar “German” order. I have no doubt that the Polish nationals could’ve been targeted, since at the time Poland was one of the most anti-Soviet countries in Europe and was considered by the Soviet leadership as a probable ally of the Nazi Germany and our adversary in the upcoming war. And no one has the slightest doubt that the war was coming.

    However, the authenticity of the published text of the Polish order is doubtful (the original hasn’t been located), since it doesn’t conform to the rules of the time and differ in that from orders known to be authentic. At this point, it’s impossible to be sure whether the Poles were specifically targeted based on their nationality (but as I said, it’s probable) or just as a part of the general population. I do not know of any unbiased investigation into the number of Polish victims – all the numbers I’ve seen came from very politically engaged sources and, thus, don’t appear trustworthy.

  192. EugeneGur says:

    My dear Polish friend,

    I have answered your post – with facts explaining to you what my opinion is based on – although you post contained nothing of substance to begin with. Your fond belief in the Germans’ good intentions is touching but hardly constitutes proof.

    In response to my calm and reasoned post, you start spatting insults. This is a sure sign of a hysteric, and hysterics usually come when a person has nothing sensible to say on the matter in hand. You could start climbing the walls, but things are what they are, and they aren’t gonna change just because you wish it. Prepare yourself, my friend, for the truth is going to come out sooner or later.

    • Replies: @tac
  193. @Verymuchalive

    Those who were in charge of “sowing the seeds” have descendants who really are reaping the rewards. Not the whirlwind.

    The descendants of the people who encouraged involvement, financed arms production (on both sides in some cases), and were political advisers in the government of the day have inherited enormous wealth. They are today’s admired movers and shakers. The people who run things.

    Those who died in those wars, on the front lines, were largely children of the deplorables of the time. Expendables.

    I have read that for every front line soldier there were ten or more in support positions. All equal veterans of “service”. All entitled to special privilege.

    And it’s all continuing today in various places.

  194. tac says:

    What makes you think that I am Polish? I’ve never stated this here nor anywhere else, nontheless I was born in the European continent …. where exactly, I would NEVER tell you nor anybody else. I simply hold a special place for innocent and repressed peoples anywhere (even the innocent Jews who were persecuted) … by the same token pertaning to my posts you can claim that I am Palestinian, Black, Syrian, Russian, German, etc.

    As a side note, being an American–and fightinging as an AMERICAN–how so does that speak to my loyalty–UNLIKE THE MANY AMERICAN-BORN ISRAELI-FIRSTERS???? Traitors perhaps????

    You have answered but not with ascertainable facts, but with simply more assertions, baseless and opposed to the available evidence at hand.

  195. tac says:

    Did you ‘happen’–AS IT ALWAYS APPEARS BY THESE SAME FORCES–to notice that this poster from whom you’ve aquired an answer to of your previous inqiry–in the midst of my anwser to you simply (without any calculations) FINALLY decided to answer your inquiries???’ Coincedence????

    Is this behavior natural or simply contrived? Think long and hard before you answer … Good luck …

  196. The vicious and criminal execution of Tsar Nicholas II and his family at Yekaterinburg (July 17, 1918)…

    Every single person involved in the planning and execution of the Tsar and his family, from Lenin on down to those who actually carried out the gruesome murder, was a member of a certain tribe.

    Just a cohencidence, I’m sure.

  197. The meaning of this holiday, like the meaning of many US holidays, has evaporated over the years, probably due to a general lack of respect in the society. But in this era of rent-insufficient wages, scam jobs, churn jobs, the scaling of mass underemployment of US citizens, a homelessness explosion and historical levels of labor-force abandonment by US citizens, it seems like a real job would be a better reward for many veterans. We already have a basketful of vacation time for the keeper employees in America’s many Family First / Family Friendly corporate & government workplaces, made possible by increased automation.

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