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I recall, as probably most people don’t, that the Central Intelligence Agency, with assistance from some of China’s neighbors, put $30 million into the destabilization of Tibet and basically financed and trained the participants in the Khampa rebellion and ultimately sought to remove the Dalai Lama from Tibet–which they did. They escorted him out of Tibet to Dharamsala. There were similar efforts made with the Uyghurs during the Cold War that never really got off the ground. In both cases you had religion waved as a banner in support of a desire for independence or autonomy which, of course, is anathema to any state. US Ambassador Chas. H. Freeman.

Since our media have confined themselves to unsupported allegations, I’ve collected several first-hand accounts of happenings in Xinjiang, an area of China I myself have never visited.

Many Chinese consider Uyghurs the descendants of a marooned, white imperialist army living on land that was China’s long before they arrived. Edgar Snow[1]Red Star Over China. Edgar Snow. 1937. Atlantic Books. visited Xinjiang in 1937 and reported, “Especially in the ninth century, when vast hordes of Ouigour Turks (whose great leader Seljuk had not yet been born) were summoned to the aid of the T’ang Court to suppress rebellion, Islamism entrenched itself in China. Following their success, many of the Ouigours were rewarded with titles and great estates and settled in the Northwest and in Szechuan and Yunnan. Over a period of centuries the Mohammedans stoutly resisted Chinese absorption but gradually lost their Turkish culture, adopted much that was Chinese, and became more or less submissive to Chinese law. Yet in the nineteenth century they were still powerful enough to make two great bids for power: one when Tu Wei-hsiu for a time set up a kingdom in Yunnan and proclaimed himself Sultan Suleiman; and the last, in 1864, when Mohammedans seized control of all the Northwest and even invaded Hupeh.”

Islam is neither the Uyghurs’ native religion nor their only one but, in its Wahabbi form, it has caused problems around the world, for which we can thank to two fervent Christians, Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski,[2]The Grand Chessboard, 1990. who considered a united Eurasia, “The only possible challenge to American hegemony.”

In 1979, months before the Soviet entry into Afghanistan, Brzezinski drafted and Carter signed a top-secret Presidential Order authorizing the CIA to train fundamentalist Muslims to wage Jihad against the Soviet Communist infidels and all unbelievers of conservative Sunni Islam and the Mujahideen terror war against Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan became the largest covert action in CIA history.[2]The Grand Chessboard, 1990. Brzezinski’s ‘Arc of Crisis’ strategy inflamed Muslims in Central Asia to destabilize the USSR during its economic crisis and, when Le Nouvel Observateur later asked if he had any regrets, Brzezinski snapped, “What is most important to the history of the world? Some stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe?”

The Uyghurs had collaborated with the Japanese in WWII and Rebiya Kadeer, ‘Mother of the Uyghurs’ and a US Government client, after kissing the ground at Yasukuni Shrine, called Xinjiang’s postwar reversion to Chinese administration a ‘reconquest.’ Ms Kadeer’s connections are interesting. In the late 1990s Hasan Mahsum, founder of the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, ETIM, moved its headquarters to Kabul and met with Osama bin Laden and the CIA-trained Taliban to coordinate action across Central Asia. In 1995 Recep Tayyip Erdogan, then mayor of Istanbul declared, “Eastern Turkestan [Xinjiang] is not only the home of the Turkic peoples but also the cradle of Turkic history, civilization and culture. To forget that would lead to the ignorance of our own history, civilizati on and culture. The martyrs of Eastern Turkestan are our martyrs.” Under Erdogan Turkey became the transit point for international terrorists destined for Syria and Turkish airports were filled with Uyghurs traveling on Turkish passports.

Twenty years later, in 1999, the CIA’s Islam strategist, Graham E. Fuller, announced, “The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan against the Russians. The same doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian power, and especially to counter the Chinese influence in Central Asia.”[3]Richard Labeviere, Dollars for Terror: The United States and Islam, Algora Publishing, 2000, p. 6.

We will return to Mr. Fuller anon but, first, some background from F. William Engdahl, “Today the West–and especially Washington–is engaged in full-scale irregular war against the stability of China. In recent months Western media and the Washington Administration have begun to raise a hue and cry over alleged mass internment camps in China’s northwestern Xinjiang where supposedly up to one million ethnic Uyghur Chinese are being detained and submitted to various forms of ‘re-education.’ Several things about the charges are notable, not the least that all originate from Western media and ‘democracy’ NGOs like Human Rights Watch, whose record for veracity leaves something to be desired.”

Tarring China with the brush of intolerance will be hard work. The colophon of the earliest dated, printed book in existence–a ninth century Chinese translation of the Diamond Sutra–reads, ‘For universal free distribution.’ Though two-thirds of Chinese are atheists in the Western sense and one-fourth are non-religious Taoists, their Constitution guarantees freedom of worship in government-sanctioned religious organizations and their government supports seventy-four seminaries, one thousand seven hundred Tibetan monasteries, three thousand religious organizations, 85,000 religious sites and 300,000 full time Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Ancient Chinese, Taoist and Muslim clergy. The 2000 census recorded 20.3 million Muslims: 1.25 million Kazakhs, 8.4 million Uyghurs and 9.8 million Hui. Neither the Kazakh nor the Hui Muslims have caused trouble.

Mr. Fuller is on a first name basis with Uyghur leaders. Ruslan Tsarni, uncle of the Boston Marathon Tsarnaev brothers, was married to Fuller’s daughter Samantha in the 1990s and was an employee of the CIA-contracted RAND Corporation. In media interviews in the aftermath of the 2013 Boston bombing, ‘Uncle Ruslan’ gave an overdone performance condemning his two nephews while verifying the FBI’s portrayal of them. The media ignored the fact that Tsarni not only worked as a consultant for CIA fronts like RAND and USAID and as a contractor for Halliburton but even established an entity called the Congress of Chechen International Organizations which supported Islamic separatist militants in the Caucasus, using Fuller’s Maryland home as its registered address.

After deploying Islamists in Pakistan in the 2000s to disrupt Chinese infrastructure, in Myanmar to disrupt the China-Myanmar energy assets and across Sudan, Libya and Syria to choke off China’s oil and gas Fuller said, “Uyghurs are indeed in touch with Muslim groups outside Xinjiang, some of them have been radicalized into broader jihadist politics in the process, a handful were earlier involved in guerrilla or terrorist training in Afghanistan, and some are in touch with international Muslim mujahideen struggling for Muslim causes of independence worldwide.” Fuller assigned them to capitalize on the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics, weaken trust in China’s government and provoke repression that Western media could condemn as ‘human rights crimes.’ Three weeks before the Games he sponsored a conference, “East Turkestan: 60 Years under Communist Chinese Rule” and the National Endowment for Democracy, NED,[4]In 2017 the American government funded 48 anti-China groups and organizations through the National Endowment for Democracy, NED, to oppose and harm China’s reputation and to create social and ethnic tensions and conflicts within China. https://www.ned.org. handled PR for the World Uyghur Congress (WUC) the emigré group headed by billionaire Rebiya Kadeer[5]A Chinese friend provided her background: She had 11 children, which confirms that Uighurs were not subject to China’s One Child Policy.. She was born to a family with no background. She started her business with a roadside convenience store and worked her way to be THE richest person in the province of Xinjiang. This proved Uighurs can earn their business success through hard work. She was a senior member of the People’s Congress of Xinjiang, and a senior member of the National People’s Congress of China. This shows Uighurs were not excluded from political life in China. She was arrested because she provided funding to Eastern Turkestan Independence Movement, labeled as terrorist organization by the US. and her husband, Sidiq Rouzi, a Voice of America employee. Their ideology[6]“We have to conquer our own country and purify it of all infidels. Then we should conquer the infidels’ countries and spread Islam. The infidels who are usurping our countries have announced war against Islam and Muslims, forcing Muslims to abandon Islam and change their beliefs.” Abdullah Mansour, leader of the Uyghur ETIM. “The Duty of Faith and Support,” Voice of Islam/al-Fajr Media Center, August 26, 2009. is familiar.

On the eve of the Olympics an attempted suicide bombing on a China Southern Airlines flight was thwarted but terrorists in Kashgar, Southern Xinjiang, killed sixteen police officers four days before the opening. The next year Uighur extremists murdered another two hundred in Urumqi but Western media refused to characterize the attacks as acts of terrorism and the violence continued:

  • October 2013: ETIM attack at Tiananmen Square in Beijing killed five.
  • February 2014: A knife attack at a train station in Kunming killed 30.
  • April 2014: A knife and bomb attack in Urumqi killed three and wounded 79.
  • May 2014: Two cars crashed into a market in Urumqi and the attackers lobbed explosives, killing 31 people.
  • September 2014: Suicide bombers and clashes left 50 people dead and 50 injured.
  • October 2015: A knife attack on a coalmine killed 50.

Then came the Syrian War and, on the sidelines of a May 2017 meeting between Syrian and Chinese businessmen in Beijing, Syria’s ambassador[7]“ISIS militants from China’s Muslim minority group vow to return home and ‘shed blood like rivers’ in the terror group’s first video to target the country By GARETH DAVIES FOR Daily Mail Online PUBLISHED 08:39 BST, 1 March 2017. to China startled reporters with a surprising number, 5000, the number of Uighurs he claimed were fighting in Syria for various jihadist groups. Many have since returned to China and 12,900 (Uyghur families insist on traveling and staying together, even in prison) have been sentenced to up to two years, mostly for illegally entering the country and are held in re-education camps. The NED is not hiding its involvement:

NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY

China (Xinjiang/East Turkistan). ASIA China [Xinjiang/East Turkistan] Advocacy and Outreach for Uyghur Human Rights Project. $310,000.

To raise awareness about Uyghur human rights issues and to bring such issues to prominence globally. The grantee will research, document, and provide independent and accurate information about human rights violations affecting Uyghurs in China. It will also conduct outreach to Chinese citizens in an effort to improve the human rights conditions for Uyghurs. The grantee will organize leadership and advocacy training seminars for Uyghur youth; monitor, document, and highlight human rights violations in East Turkestan/Xinjiang; and strengthen advocacy on Uyghur issues at the United Nations and the European Parliament.

Today, NED money supports the World Uyghur Congress (WUC) which calls China’s Xinjiang Province ‘East Turkistan’ and China’s administration of Xinjiang as ‘Chinese occupation of East Turkistan,’ runs articles like, Op-ed: A Profile of Rebiya Kadeer, Fearless Uyghur Independence Activist,” and admits that Kadeer seeks Uyghur independence from China.

Faced with an armed insurrection, most states impose martial law or a state of emergency, as Britain did in Malaya from 1945 to 1957 and the US did with the Patriot Act, but China decided–despite popular outrage–to write off its losses and play the long game.

China founded The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO),[1]Red Star Over China. Edgar Snow. 1937. Atlantic Books. a political, economic, and security alliance, with Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan, who stopped funneling money and providing corridors for Uyghur terrorists to move into and out of China. The SCO has since expanded to include India and Pakistan and Iran has begun the accession process, making it world’s largest security pact in both area and population and the only one whose membership includes four nuclear powers.

Forming the SCO was easier than assuaging public outrage. An unheard-of lawsuit by victims’ relatives accused the government of reverse discrimination so they stepped up security and published their objectives:

  1. restore law and order
  2. prevent terrorists from inflicting more violence
  3. use ‘high-intensity regulation’
  4. contain the spread of terrorism beyond Xinjiang
  5. purge extremists and separatists from society.

Neighborhood community centres–labelled ‘concentration camps’ in the western press–educate rural Uyghurs about the perils of religious extremism and train them for urban jobs.

In 2013 President Xi toured Eurasia and proposed the Belt and Road Initiative for three billion people, designed to create the biggest market in the world with unparalleled development potential, and built a gas pipeline to China from Turkmenistan through Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan which, like China’s other western pipelines, power lines, and rail and road networks, runs through the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region.

Beijing then moved jobs to Xinjiang and opened vocational schools to train rural youth in literacy and job skills and swore to protect its neighbors from terrorism in exchange for their pledge to reciprocate. To create jobs in the province Xi directed investment from forty-five of China’s top companies and eighty Fortune 500 manufacturers to Urumqi. Corporate investment increased from $10 billion in 2015 to $15 billion in 2017 and infrastructure investments of $70 billion in both 2017 and 2018 lifted the annual goods shipments past 100 million tons with a goal of hourly departures to fifteen European capitals. Half a million Uyghurs have relocated from remote villages to cities and, as a reult, 600,000 Uighurs were lifted out of poverty in 2016, 312,000 in 2017 and 400,000 in 2018. The last poor Uyghurs will join the cash economy in mid-2020.

The real war is being fought in our media and an engineer encountered a classic example in the heartbreaking tale of savage destruction of historic Kashgar Old Town, which The Washington Post called, “An Ancient Culture, Bulldozed Away,” The New York Times, “To Protect an Ancient City, China Moves to Raze It,” TIME, “Tearing Down Old Kashgar: Another Blow to the Uighurs.” Professor Patrik Meyer⁠ takes up the story:

As a tourist, those headlines resonate with me, too. I wish to keep the Kashgar Old Town untouched and to be able to wander along its narrow, shaded alleys lined by adobe houses. However, if I were responsible for the living conditions and safety of its residents, as well as for the modernization of Kashgar writ large, then I would see Beijing’s transformation in a more positive light. Given the almost unprecedented access I was granted between 2010 and 2013 to conduct ethno-political research in Xinjiang and my robust background in civil engineering, I consider myself well positioned to provide a broader perspective on the issues raised by Western journalists when criticizing the KOT renewal project. A simple survey of Western media outlets shows that harsh criticism of Beijing’s renewal of the KOT is built on four central arguments: demolition of Uyghur’s historical heritage, destruction of Uyghur’s social fabric, absence of Uyghurs’ voices in the project, and the sufficient seismic performance of existing houses. Moreover, Western journalists often argue that the goal of Beijing’s works in Kashgar is to weaken, or even erase, Uyghur identity, not to improve their living conditions.

KOT’s historical value is indisputable, but it is not as significant as assumed by the Western critics. While some houses are centennial, with charismatic courtyards and beautifully decorated wooden frames, the majority are a poorly built patchwork of old and new mud and masonry walls. Hence, while the old town as whole has significant historical value, many of its houses are not historically valuable. Kashgar is one of the few Chinese cities where the old town is being partly preserved and remodeled following traditional standards. There is indeed some damage being caused to the Uyghurs’ historical heritage, but it is far less significant than the Western critics claim and it is intended to modernize Kashgar, not to “Demolish the Uyghur History” as argued by the Smithsonian. The second dominant argument, the tearing apart the Uyghur identity, is also happening, but again, not to the extent or for the purpose that it is being reported in the West. China’s fast modernization results in numerous communities being reshaped and displaced, including the one in the KOT. However, when asked for their view about Beijing’s renewal of the KOT, most of its dwellers welcome it. And for good reasons. Their houses are often very small, poorly ventilated, dusty and dark, have no toilets, and are unpractical. It is those who do not live in the old town–Uyghurs, tourist, and Western journalists–who are most critical of the renewal project. Hence, I believe that the KOT project is causing Uyghur identity change, not its destruction, as argued by the West.

As for the third argument, that the Uyghurs have no say in the project, it is again only partially correct. Their voice is indeed absent from the upper levels of the project’s decision making process. However, the majority of homeowners decide whether to stay or leave the KOT and how to proceed with the repair of their houses. They are offered three options, the first being to permanently move to a free, new apartment larger their old house. Second, they can opt to let the government tear down the old house and replace it with a new structure for free, which does not included finishing works such as flooring, windows, and decoration. During the time that this work is being done, the families can rent an apartment subsidized by the government at about $900 per year. In case the house is deemed to be structurally sound, the homeowners are given a subsidy (about US$90/m2) to upgrade the house themselves. Additional subsidies are also offered for those willing to finish the façade using traditional Uyghur style. While there might be some irregularities within this system, most homeowners affected by the renewal of the KOT have the choice to stay or leave, which the Western critics seems to ignore.

Finally, a fourth dominant argument against Beijing’s KOT project is that the old town must be seismically safe because it has survived hundreds of years without being destroyed. Again, this is only partly true. There are a number of houses that were built properly over a hundred years ago, but the majority have been either poorly built or structurally modified in the last 30-50 years, making them prone to structural damage in case of a significant seismic event. Based on my expertise in seismic performance of adobe structures and my countless visits to the KOT, I can confirm that it is not feasible to retrofit most of its houses because of their deficient structural condition.

But the destruction of KOT was small beer compared to the onslaught that began in August, 2018, at the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, then conducting its regular review of China’s compliance with the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. Gay McDougall, an American lay member of an independent UN body, claimed that China was interning one million Muslims. The OHCHR’s official news release showed that its sole American member made the only mention of alleged re-education camps and said she was “deeply concerned” about “credible reports” alleging mass detentions of millions of Uighurs Muslim minorities in “internment camps.” AP reported that McDougall ‘did not specify a source for that information in her remarks at the hearing’ and video from the session confirms that McDougall provided no source for her claim. Though she failed to name a single source Reuters reported, “UN SAYS IT HAS CREDIBLE REPORTS THAT CHINA HOLDS A MILLION UIGHURS IN SECRET CAMPS.”

China then invited the UN, the EU and the World Muslim Congress to send inspectors to for independent investigations. Eleven muslim nations accepted while the EU and Turkey declined. The Muslim Council’s report commended China for its treatment of Muslims and one inspector, Mumtaz Zahra Baloch, gave an interview to The Times of India:

“During this visit, I did not find any instances of forced labour or cultural and religious repression,” Mumtaz Zahra Baloch, the Charge d‘affaires, Pakistan‘s Embassy in China, told the state-run Global Times on Thursday.

“The imams we met at the mosques and the students and teachers at the Xinjiang Islamic Institute told us that they enjoy freedom in practicing Islam and that the Chinese government extends support for maintenance of mosques all over Xinjiang,” said Baloch, who visited Xinjiang as part of delegation of diplomats.

“Similarly, I did not see any sign of cultural repression. The Uighur culture as demonstrated by their language, music and dance is very much part of the life of the people of Xinjiang,” she said.

Asked about the security situation in Xinjiang, which has been “beset by terrorism”, Baloch said, “We learned that the recent measures have resulted in improvement of the security situation in Xinjiang and there have been no incidents of terrorism in recent months.”

“The counter-terrorism measures being taken are multidimensional and do not simply focus on law enforcement aspects. Education, poverty alleviation and development are key to the counter-terrorism strategy of the Chinese government,” she said.

Xinjiang‘s regional government invited diplomatic envoys as well as representatives from Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Afghanistan, Thailand, and Kuwait following reports about detention of thousands of Uighur and other Muslims in massive education camps.

The UN‘s Geneva-based Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination last year said that it was alarmed by “numerous reports of ethnic Uighurs and other Muslim minorities” being detained in Xinjiang region and called for their immediate release.

Estimates about them “range from tens of thousands to upwards of a million,” it had said.

China defended the camps, saying they are re-education camps aimed at de-radicalising sections of the Uighur population from extremism and separatism.

The US and several other countries besides UN officials have expressed concern over the camps.

China has been carrying out massive crackdown on the East Turkistan Islamic Movement (ETIM) in Xinjiang province, where Uyghurs who formed majority in the region were restive over the increasing settlements of Han community.

Pakistan and several other Muslim countries faced criticism about their silence over China‘s crackdown on Muslims in Xinjiang.

China has about 20 million Muslims who are mostly Uighurs, an ethnic group of Turkic origin, and Hui Muslims, who are of the Chinese ethnic origin. While Uighurs lived in Xinjiang, bordering Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, Hui Muslims resided in Ningxia province.

A recent report in the Global Times said China passed a five-year plan to ‘sinicize Islam‘ in a bid to make it compatible with its version of socialism.

“This is China‘s important act to explore ways of governing religion in modern countries,” the report said.

Baloch said the delegation was given full and open access to the three centres that they visited in Kashgar and Hotan.

“The training program includes teaching of national common language (Chinese), law and constitution and vocational skills. The students also participate in recreational activities like sports, music and dance. We witnessed several skill classes being offered in these centres,” she said.

“During the visits to these centres, we had the opportunity to interact with both the management and the students. We observed the students to be in good physical health. The living facilities are fairly modern and comfortable with separate dormitories for men and women. They are being served halal food,” she said.

She said the Uighur language is being used in official establishments, airports, subway stations, police stations or hotels.

“Even the copies of the Koran that we saw in the mosques and the Islamic centre were translated into the Uighur language. The most visible sign of protection of Uighur culture by the government is the government-run bilingual kindergarten schools where children learn Putonghua as well as Uighur language and culture from a very young age,” she said.

A Chinese friend, Xiao Zhang, writes,

“I have a friend who just came back from Xinjiang and he has visited some of the re-education camps and talked with people there. He told me that Uighurs really received vocational education inside, not kidding, and cannot get out until completion of courses. The government in Xinjiang simply kept all the potential “trouble makers” they could find in detention based on the reports they received from various sources, among which reports from communities make up a major part. The government has known for years that poorly-educated, unemployed people are more easily radicalized. Now they take actions to ensure they won’t make trouble. This is another example of Chinese style of government behaviour, just like one-child policy.”

Another wrote,

“I have personally been to Xinjiang for around 20 days this summer. I went totally on my own. I did not sign up in any travel agencies for any travel groups. I did not drive but took the train, the bus, or the car, or the horse. From my personal experience, firstly, the Uyghurs are not the only minority in Xinjiang. I saw Mongols, Kazakhs, Hui Muslims and many other minorities. Here I mean Xinjiang is not a place that is dominated by Uyghurs, even if we don’t take the Han Chinese into consideration. It is a far more diverse place. Secondly, Uyghurs keep their different habits, traditions, language, and religions that are exotic to most Chinese. But they also face westernisation in clothing and habits just like people in other areas of China. People worry about the preservation of their cultures across China.

Interestingly, people in Urumqi were hardly dressed in a very religious way, although there were a great number of Muslims. I was told that the local government regarded some of the religious clothing as extremism, for they were not consistent with the local tradition. Maybe what they meant was that the local Muslims should not be dressed like extremists following strict religious laws, since there was no such law in China. People were mostly dressed in a quite modern look, or in their traditional clothing, yet no women will cover their face with black silk.

Thirdly, there is distrust between different ethnic groups. I have to admit that, because I feel that even people of the same ethnicity do not trust each other, let alone the distrust between ethnic groups. In Urumqi, the security check is very strict and almost everywhere. At the gate of a park in the city, I passed the checkpoint within seconds, but a Uyghur-looking man after me took much longer time to pass. Even though the security guard herself also seems to be Uyghur, she still checked the man’s ID cards and computer profiles very carefully. In many other places, I also feel the ‘privilege’ of being a Han Chinese. In Ili, where the East Turkestan Republic is located, I was told that Uyghur police officers were killed in an ATM nearby a year ago by the Uyghur terrorists with long swords. The terrorists were hoping to acquire guns from the officer. So the city restricted all activity in late night. Anyone who are out after midnight will be considered suspicious and the police can check their ID in the street or in the office. Here I want to make further explanation, for in most Chinese cities, it is totally safe to hang out at night at any time you want, and the police won’t patrol in the street checking your ID unless someone complains about noise and etc.

Surely there is racism arising in the distrust. In Urumqi, I asked why ethnic minorities were treated in an unfriendly way and they tried to tell me that it was because of the very unique situations in Xinjiang. Sounds like the discrimination is natural but I cannot judge based on what I learnt. A taxi driver told me that it was the Islam belief that makes the Uyghur not in harmony with the recent society led by the Communist Party and that the religion was toxic. I thought he was referring to Islamic extremism but in a seemingly biased way.

Fourth, I tried to learn about people’s attitudes towards the 2009 riots and got similar responses from Uyghurs and Han. They both feared the riots and tried to tell me how horrible that day was. Some Uyghurs who were Urumqi locals claimed that all those terrorists were not local to the city and tried to kill all the citizens with regardless of ethnicity which made them dreadful. In my journey, most of the Uyghurs I met were friendly farmers, some of whom were even willing to accommodate me for free. On one time, I was taking a 6-hour bus, I talked with a Uyghur guy sitting next to me. We almost talked about everything, including our hometowns, our families and so on. The guy was very talkative and friendly, leaving me a very good impression towards the Uyghur.

Lastly, I mean, I never heard of the re-education camp. So I guess this was not related to normal people’s life. The minorities I met were usually very talkative and complained to me about many things including the policies, the government, the relation between the Han and the minorities, except the camp. I think most Chinese people just want to live a peaceful life no matter in Xinjiang or outside Xinjiang. I was so lucky to travel in Xinjiang, because the scenery I spotted was so great that I would probably pay another visit in the future.

Another visitor, Vadim Mikhailaov, visited,

“Xinjiang appears to have no criminality whatsoever and the police in the streets are unarmed. The checkpoints aren’t too time consuming if you have a Chinese ID card and know the security guards from daily contact. At the checkpoints we visited, on the other hand, annoyed police or security guards struggled with the protocol on how to handle foreigners. We all drank until late and went home without the slightest issue. Our group was coming from many places in the West where stumbling out of a bar late at night can often be quite dangerous. We had to admit that you feel safe at night in Xinjiang. Completely safe. Most places just asked for our passports, took a look, and let us through, sometimes asking which country we came from. A few guards didn’t want to deal with the hassle and just told us to bypass the metal scanner and get out of their sight. As everything in China, enforcement is sometimes spotty. But those were the exceptions; discipline in the surveillance apparatus was generally quite high. We walked leisurely through the city, and while we attracted some attention, we were neither stopped, nor stared at, nor (I think) followed. As I mentioned, there are police everywhere; standing, walking, and driving. They’re not aggressive, or intimidating, or stopping people at random. They’re just there making themselves present.

One big difference between Turpan and Urumqi was that, again, most people were Uyghur. But the police were Uyghur, too. The people manning the checkpoints and the “convenience police stations,” and driving the patrol cars were all Uyghur. It’s worth emphasizing that whatever is happening in Xinjiang is not just an invasion by a foreign army hell-bent on annoying the locals. The locals are quite annoyed, indeed, but it’s their fellow tribesmen doing the grunt work. Or most of it, anyway. I must say that the Uyghur police we saw were more easy-going than the Han police we saw in Urumqi. More chill. Less zealous, you could say. At any rate, they never gave us a hard time, and we got plenty of smiles and easy treatment. Meanwhile France has soldiers, not police, patrolling the streets of Paris. Considering his post-resignation declaration about radical Islam replacing the Republic, I have to wonder what the former French Minister of the Interior, Gérard Collomb, would make of Xinjiang?

China’s Ambassador to Kazakhstan talked to local journalists:

Since the 1990s, the three evil forces – terrorism, religious extremism and separatism– have been a scourge in China’s Xinjiang and implemented a series of appalling terrorist attacks, including the incident in Urumqi on July 5, 2009. What should we do? Aside from taking strong measures, we also need to remove the soil for the three evil forces. All these measures aim to help people who were instigated by the three evil forces or influenced by extremism to come back to reason and to return to society to live a normal life. In order to achieve this purpose, China set up the training centers in accordance with China’s Constitution, the Counterterrorism Law and the Regulations of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region on De-radicalization and by referring to the successful experience on counterterrorism from other countries.

The training centers in Xinjiang do not target any ethnic group or certain religion and all people there are treated equally without discrimination. There are two criteria for whether an individual should be in the centers – whether they participated in illegal activities of the three evil forces and whether they pose a threat to the society.

For example, some individuals used social media, such as WhatsApp to promote jihad online or spread videos on violence in circumstances that were not serious enough to constitute a crime. These people go to the training centers. Some people, who received prison sentence for participating in terrorist or extremist activities but refuse to abandon extremism and plan to take revenge, also need to go to the training centers.

To put it simply, people who obey laws and regulations and commit no wrong deeds do not need to worry about “going to the training centers” no matter which ethnic group they are from and whatever their religion is. The training center is not prison, but a school for the public. There is only one goal for the school – to educate people and to stop good people becoming bad. What do people learn in the center? They learn Putonghua to make sure that all Chinese citizens can understand, can speak and can write the national common language. This is the basic requirement and responsibility for a citizen from any civilized country.

Trainees learn knowledge on laws so that all Chinese citizens understand that they live in the 21st Century where laws are put in place and strictly enforced and anyone who violates the laws will be held accountable. The trainees should have the basic awareness of laws so they are not so easily tempted by extremism. They also learn vocational skills at the centers, including pastry making, weaving and textile printing, shoes-making and fixing machinery, hairdressing and make-up and e-commerce. Trainees can choose one to two skills to learn based on their interests. There will be more chance for them to get employment and less risk of becoming involving with the three evil forces.

With the work of these training centers being implemented in order, more and more trainees have graduated from the centers and returned to society and earned a better life. There is no torture in these training centers but only protection and respect for human rights. In contrast to the fake news, trainees’ religions and traditions are fully respected – all the centers offer various kinds of food, including halal food for them to choose. There are different entertainment activities, including singing songs, dancing, chanting or playing basketball for their physical health. Speaking of human rights, let me ask a question, if a modern person could not understand or write the country’s common language, has no idea about modern marriage or zero vocational skills and only enslaves his wife at home or is mistreated by her arranged husband and are used or brainwashed by the three evil forces, how could you say he or she understands human rights?

All the facts have told that the work of training centers has been effective and helpful. For now, the stability and situation in China’s Xinjiang has been improved and there have been no violent incidents in the region for more than two years. It is not only a positive influence on Xinjiang’s work on maintaining security but also makes a great contribution to safeguarding the stability of the adjacent Central Asia area.

Shohrat Zakir, Chairman of the Government of Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region:

Xinjiang has established a training model with professional vocational training institutions as the platform: learning the country’s common language, legal knowledge, vocational skills, along with de-extremization education as the main content, with achieving employment as the key direction. The vocational training institutions have set up departments of teaching, management, medical care, logistics and security, and allocated a corresponding number of faculty, class advisors, medical, catering, logistics and security staff. In the process of learning and training, the trainees will advance from learning the country’s common language to learning legal knowledge and vocational skills. Firstly, the trainees will take learning the country’s common language as the basis to improve their communication abilities, gain modern science knowledge and enhance their understanding of Chinese history, culture and national conditions. The teaching follows standardized plans, textbooks, materials and systems. The trainees are taught in various methods suited to their literacy to raise their abilities to use the country’s common language as soon as possible. Secondly, the learning of legal knowledge is taken as a key part of cultivating the trainees’ awareness of the nation, citizenship and rule of law. Legal experts are hired to lecture on the Constitution, the criminal law and the civil law, etc., and judges, prosecutors and lawyers are invited to teach the criminal law, the law on public security administration, the anti-terrorism law, the marriage law, the education law and Xinjiang’s de-extremization regulations. Thirdly, vocational learning is taken as a key way to help trainees find employment. Courses on clothing and footwear making, food processing, electronic product assembly, typesetting and printing, hairdressing and e-commerce have been set up to suit local social needs and job market. Multi-skill training is provided to trainees who have the desire and capability to learn, so that they acquire one to two vocational skills upon graduation. Businesses in garment making, mobile phone assembly and ethnic cuisine catering are arranged to offer trainees practical opportunities. In the meantime, they are paid basic incomes and a bonus. The mechanism has taken shape in which the trainees can ‘learn, practice and earn money.

In daily life, vocational institutions and schools strictly implement the spirit of laws and regulations, including the Constitution and religious affairs regulations, and respect and protect the customs and habits of various ethnic groups and their beliefs in diet and daily life. Faculties of the institutions and schools also try their best to ensure and meet the trainees’ needs in study, life, and entertainment on the basis of free education. The cafeteria prepares nutritious free diets, and the dormitories are fully equipped with radio, TV, air conditioning, bathroom and shower. Indoor and outdoor sports venues for basketball, volleyball and table tennis have been built, along with reading rooms, computer labs, film screening rooms, as well as performance venues such as small auditoriums and open-air stages. Various activities such as contests on speech, writing, dancing, singing and sports are organized. Many trainees have said that they were previously affected by extremist thought and had never participated in such kinds of art and sports activities, and now they have realized that life can be so colorful.

Moreover, the vocational institutions and schools pay high attention to the trainees’ mental health and helped them solve problems in life. They not only provide professional psychological counseling services, but also duly deal with complaints from the trainees and their families. All this shows that the management of the vocational institutions and schools are people-oriented.

China’s censor banned the use of ‘anti-Islamic’ words on social media after a clash that involved Muslims fighting at a toll booth went viral. Weibo blocked phrases disrespectful to Muslims and search engines block insults, mockery and defamatory terms, “It’s time to remove radical phrases that discriminate against Islam and are biased against Muslims to prevent worsening online hatred towards them. Those phrases severely undermine religious harmony and ethnic unity,” said Xiong Kunxin, a professor at Beijing’s Minzu University of China in Beijing. “China closes streets for Eid prayers, pays for Muslim Chinese to make the hajj and censors the internet and social media to prevent criticisms of Islam that might inflame social tensions. The idea that they should suddenly demand that the Muslims turn over their Qurans and Prayer mats is classic fake news and state propaganda. As a result, peace may break out and the recent deluge of fake news from Western corporate media paints the Chinese government as a gross violator of human rights while the Empire has droned, bombed, starved and killed millions of Muslim children, women from Afghanistan to Yemen and displaced millions more.”

FURTHER READING: Tony Cartalucci, Flying While Muslim;

15,000 children held in detention camps across the US.

Video: A Uyghur Re-Education Camp. Translation: “The center provides professional training in clothing making, food preparation and IT. The guy named Ailijiang Masaidi said he received RMB 2800/month and sending RM2600 home. His family is very happy. The 2nd guy named Ahbulaihaidi is now working in a shoe making factory. He said he has mastered most skills and would get RMB 4000-5000/month soon, that would means RMB 60-70k a year. His technical manager says his company fully supports the factory’s effort in Hetian. The 2nd guy says that clothing factory has been set up in Yutian. The lady named Humakuli says she now work in a factory near her home Kashgar. She is working and learning at the same time. Training includes cultural learning about history about Xinjiang and about Zhonghua civilization. The narratives then says the center provides cultural and sports activities including painting, dance and Peking opera etc. The guy who dress as consort Yang is Abdula. He said every one admires him now because he is the best singer. Before he attend the center he was told that all sort of entertainment including singing and dancing is sinful. He said his life used to be gray and now is colorful. Then Kashgar National Congress Deputy Chairman Mijidi said he wants the people to learn about the traditional culture of the Uighur people. Singing and dancing are all acceptable.” The program was implemented in 2014, and since then no terrorist attack has happened in China. So it was considered a major success and was expanded greatly.

Notes

[1] Red Star Over China. Edgar Snow. 1937. Atlantic Books.

[2] The Grand Chessboard, 1990.

[3] Richard Labeviere, Dollars for Terror: The United States and Islam, Algora Publishing, 2000, p. 6.

[4] In 2017 the American government funded 48 anti-China groups and organizations through the National Endowment for Democracy, NED, to oppose and harm China’s reputation and to create social and ethnic tensions and conflicts within China. https://www.ned.org.

[5] A Chinese friend provided her background: She had 11 children, which confirms that Uighurs were not subject to China’s One Child Policy.. She was born to a family with no background. She started her business with a roadside convenience store and worked her way to be THE richest person in the province of Xinjiang. This proved Uighurs can earn their business success through hard work. She was a senior member of the People’s Congress of Xinjiang, and a senior member of the National People’s Congress of China. This shows Uighurs were not excluded from political life in China. She was arrested because she provided funding to Eastern Turkestan Independence Movement, labeled as terrorist organization by the US.

[6] “We have to conquer our own country and purify it of all infidels. Then we should conquer the infidels’ countries and spread Islam. The infidels who are usurping our countries have announced war against Islam and Muslims, forcing Muslims to abandon Islam and change their beliefs.” Abdullah Mansour, leader of the Uyghur ETIM. “The Duty of Faith and Support,” Voice of Islam/al-Fajr Media Center, August 26, 2009.

[7] “ISIS militants from China’s Muslim minority group vow to return home and ‘shed blood like rivers’ in the terror group’s first video to target the country By GARETH DAVIES FOR Daily Mail Online PUBLISHED 08:39 BST, 1 March 2017.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: China, CIA, New Silk Road, Uyghurs 
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  1. anonymous[134] • Disclaimer says:

    This essay just affirms what I already knew… that most of the “Islamic” terrorists are simply compromised traitors to the Ummah. Any lickspittle of the avowed enemies of Islam cannot be true muslims, such as that Uyghur woman “leader.”

    If some terrorist is not even a true muslim, it would be incorrect to call him/her an Islamic terrorist, no? They are simply mercenaries, doing the bidding of their infidel masters, thus infidels themselves.

    That said, I find that this article also appears to be a bit of a whitewash in favour of the Chinese. It is very difficult to believe both sides (western media & Chinese apologists), and I would certainly take what the Pakistanis say with a cup of salt. They know which side of the bread is buttered.

    A taxi driver told me that it was the Islam belief that makes the Uyghur not in harmony with the recent society led by the Communist Party and that the religion was toxic

    Finally, in the off chance that some spiritual cipher from China should come across this thread, let me educate said cipher…

    There is nothing toxic about Islam. Islam simply means submission to the One God of all existence. It is the polar opposite of Paganism, Polytheism, Animism, Idolatry, Mangods-worship (Jesus, Vishnu, Shiva, Zoroaster, Buddha…), and so on.

    To follow Islam is to finally comprehend the Almighty One, about as much as a human can be expected to comprehend the Incomprehensible.

  2. Escher says:

    No denying the hypocrisy of the West; denouncing China while it bombs Muslim countries mercilessly in the service of big oil/Israeli interests.
    Still, where there is smoke there is likely to be some fire

    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48667221/inside-china-s-thought-transformation-camps

  3. What a sack of shite. Of course, muslims are welcome in China, so is everyone else who hates the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I’m certain the author is quite well pleased with having regurgitated such a wonderful piece of humanist tripe.

    The chinese can’t be negotiated with, they can only be beaten. And anti-god literature, and that’s what it is, made up crap, will be relegated to the dust bin of history. Thankfully, I only skimmed it, TLDR, although I’m sure the author is able to his anti-god bias sufficiently.

    Ha ha, I just saw the author’s name, Robert Godfree. You can’t make this stuff up, well, he can.

  4. Jason Liu says:

    Tarring China with the brush of intolerance will be hard work.

    No it isn’t. That’s the fucking problem.

    China has no international media to fight back against western accusations, and overreacting to things like Uighur terrorism is just handing western media extra bullets to shoot China with.

    If it was hard to portray China negatively, you wouldn’t have written this article to begin with.

    Being known internationally for running concentration camps is far worse than enduring a few terrorist attacks per year, even if the accusations are wildly exaggerated. If anything terrorist attacks without obvious provocation (i.e. Beijing’s heavy-handedness) would probably gain a lot of sympathy for China.
    Not to mention the risk of alienating many crucial Central Asian BRI-compliant states, who share both culture and religion with the Uighurs.

    The entire Uighur panic assumes that Central Asian Islam is anything like Arabian Islam, and failing to realize that their newfound Wahabbism is a reaction caused by China coming down too hard on them. It is not a natural development. The whole approach smells like some old fuck in Beijing read an article about Europe’s rapefugees and decided the exact same thing would happen here unless we sent in the
    military police.

    What China should do is something similar to what Russians did with the Chechnyans, which is an unspoken miracle as far as majority-minority relations go. Flip the population by promoting ethnocentric patriarchs that uphold their tribal identity but in allegiance to China’s majority tribal identity. Two tribal-nations under one flag satisfies the insecurities of both parties. Beijing’s mistake was promoting community leaders that agreed with the CCP but felt like race traitors to the average Uighur. They should’ve compromised.

    If the problem is purely religious, then time and development would’ve solved it. Most Central Asian states are nowhere as devout as MENA or even Southeast Asia, it’s a product of Soviet atheism that China could’ve subtly continued in Xinjiang.

    Or the ideal solution: Pressure the Uighurs like we are now but encourage them to emigrate out of China en masse. Right now there are too many barriers for Uighurs who want to leave because the CCP is afraid of them blabbing about their mistreatment. Fuck that. Better they leave now and we put up with a period of bad press, than endure a thorn in our side forever. We’ll both be happier in the end.

  5. Talha says:
    @Jason Liu

    handing western media extra bullets to shoot China with.

    Well yeah – it’s tough to deny satellite images of destruction of centuries-old mosques:
    https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-show-china-destroys-mosques-to-install-police-state-on-muslims-2019-4

    “By using a variety of tools, including subscription services, open sources and collaborative mapping applications, we can identify that these two mosques have undergone significant structural changes over the course of 2018. This changes translate into the loss of beautiful and historic buildings, such as the gatehouse at Keriya Mosque and a large portion of the Kargilik Mosque”
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/04/05/are-historic-mosques-in-xinjiang-being-destroyed/

    Bad move guys, really bad PR. The last guys trashing historical sites on the world stage were Daesh.

    The entire Uighur panic assumes that Central Asian Islam is anything like Arabian Islam, and failing to realize that their newfound Wahabbism is a reaction caused by China coming down too hard on them. It is not a natural development.

    Solid point given the nature of the Sufi-oriented traditional Hanafi Islam of that area.

    Flip the population by promoting ethnocentric patriarchs that uphold their tribal identity but in allegiance to China’s majority tribal identity.

    Thinking out of the box – I like this.

    Or the ideal solution: Pressure the Uighurs like we are now but encourage them to emigrate out of China en masse.

    Also a potential solution; work with neighboring members of the above Shanghai cooperative in order to engage them to take and settle Uyghurs in exchange for financial or development incentives.

    Peace.

  6. Lo says:
    @Jason Liu

    The entire Uighur panic assumes that Central Asian Islam is anything like Arabian Islam, and failing to realize that their newfound Wahabbism is a reaction caused by China coming down too hard on them. It is not a natural development.

    Yes, you are exactly right. Unfortunately, this article is too ignorant and full of factual errors. So it assumes Uighurs are just Wahhabis or became Wahhabis for no reason. Honestly, China’s handling of the Uighur issue couldn’t be more incompetent than it already is. Overreacting a minority that is barely around 1% of the population is just insane.

    If the problem is purely religious, then time and development would’ve solved it.

    It is not purely religious. Uighurs don’t like becoming a minority in their ancestral lands. They are a different people with a distinct culture, language, and religion. Instead of trying to solve the problem pragmatically the Chinese keep pushing heavy-handed policies, forced programs, demographic war. It is an Asian insecurity thing I guess. Otherwise, I see no reason why a nation of 1.4 billion would worry about a few million Uighurs with no army or advanced economy.

    Or the ideal solution: Pressure the Uighurs like we are now but encourage them to emigrate out of China en masse.

    Well, maybe the ideal solution is the US and Europe pressuring China until all Chinese leave the US, SEA, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, and Tibet en masse and go back to coastal China, where their ancestral land is. It is no less fair than your ideal solution for Uighurs. If the Chinese were sensible, they could have solved this simply by looking at how Russia deals with its minorities. Give people autonomy, security, and don’t keep applying bullshit pressure for no reason. The pressure is the exact reason why Wahhabism spread there in the first place. Xinjiang is a land that is under invasion, people might be rational and accept they cannot win a war against China and just try to live their lives. However, oppressive and genocidal policies of CCP is pushing them to react defensively with any possible means.

  7. Lo says:
    @Talha

    Also a potential solution; work with neighboring members of the above Shanghai cooperative in order to engage them to take and settle Uyghurs in exchange for financial or development incentives.

    I don’t understand any of these solutions. Why should Uighurs leave their ancestral lands because the Chinese are too insecure about a tiny minority? And China has no credibility when it comes to deals, just think WTO deal they are bending backward to not follow up with the terms THEY signed for. What makes you think they’d honor a deal they make with economically dependent SCO countries, even if Uighurs somehow accepted such deal?

    Also, just out of curiosity, do you support such a deal for Palestinians as well? Unlike China, Israel is surrounded by enemies and is tiny. Their population is also tiny. They have far more legit concerns about Palestine than Chinese can have about Uighurs. Should Arab countries take in Palestinians, given economic support provided?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Godfree Roberts
  8. Talha says:
    @Lo

    Why should Uighurs leave their ancestral lands because the Chinese are too insecure about a tiny minority?

    They shouldn’t unless a deal is worked out to the satisfaction of all involved.

    Chinese are simply too big to do much about. The communists in China had zero problems eliminating millions of Chinese to make the Great Leap Forward. They could easily wipe out the Uighurs and no one could do much about it. Now, if the rest of the Muslim world leadership had a backbone, they might actually pressure China through, say, oil embargo or something. But that’s not likely with these lot in charge.

    Also, just out of curiosity, do you support such a deal for Palestinians as well?

    That’s a tricky one. The reason being that the land is not just a Palestinian concern but one involving the inheritance of the whole Ummah. The Palestinians cannot simply make a deal unilaterally on behalf of everyone, for instance:
    So even if the Palestinians all took a deal and left, that would not solve the ultimate issue of sovereignty (especially when it comes to Jerusalem). Hope that makes sense.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  9. anon19 says:

    I admit I know little about this but this article seems biased in favour of China. From my experiences with Chinese people, I can easily see them being very harsh with minority groups.

  10. utu says:

    Many Chinese consider Uyghurs the descendants of a marooned, white imperialist army living on land that was China’s long before they arrived.

    Chines can easily be made to believe lots of nonsense. There was then no China and no Chinese there.

    DNA Reveals These Red-Haired Chinese Mummies Come From Europe And Asia
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/07/18/these-red-haired-chinese-mummies-come-from-all-over-eurasia-dna-reveals/#4efe6d9b3e2c

    Chinese History: The White Tribes of Ancient China
    https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-White-Tribes-of-Ancient-China

    At that time, Chinese tradition had always shown the fact that they believed China had developed independently from the rest of the world. Because of this, the government was reluctant to bring the finds to the public attention.

    There were two cartwheels found at the burial sites, very similar to what you might find in Russia, or nearby countries. These amazing people were probably Scandinavian or German; it is amazing to think that they trekked across China all the way from Europe, 4,000 years ago, taking their traditions and language with them.

    • Replies: @gT
  11. @Lo

    Oppressive and genocidal CCP should stick to its true calling.

    Kill them all.

    Problem solved. Called it like we do, operation freedom, they will be Free.

    Peace.

  12. @anonymous

    Buddha and arahats are not mangods:

    “And how is the bhikkhu a noble one whose banner is lowered, whose burden is lowered, who is unfettered? Here a bhikkhu has abandoned the conceit ‘I am,’ has cut it off at the root …so that it is no longer subject to future arising. That is how the bhikkhu is a noble one whose banner is lowered, whose burden is lowered, who is unfettered.

    Bhikkhus, when the gods with Indra, with Brahmā and with Pajāpati seek a bhikkhu who is thus liberated in mind, they do not find anything of which they could say: ‘The consciousness of one thus gone is supported by this.’ Why is that? One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now.”

    https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mn22

    (I see a similarity to Al-Hallaj’s “In my subsistence is my annihilation, in my annihilation is You.” with Buddhism, but without the duality)

    If you mean any later strand that reifies and infers permanence like the theists, then yes, most likely – every phenomenological thing is subject to decay, even the Buddha’s and the Prophet’s words..

    The Hindus say ‘Truth is One, the wise know it by different names’. For the most part, religion – the concern with the improvement of a human being’s internal state – agrees.. when it is religion. When it gets tainted by ideology – concern and attempt to control the external – then it generally gets closer to harm. This is why communism will fail – it gives no impetus for an individual to religiously change themselves towards socialism, just an ideology for changing others, and how do you know that you are changing someone for the good when you haven’t changed yourself?

    Islamic religion is very similar to Buddhist religion – both aim for the cessation of the human element, and so does the Jewish religion, Taoism, even Hinduism and Christianity to a degree, though they grasp at this reality more imo.. but whilst all religious philosophies give abstract verbal definitions to the Metaphysical (99 names, Trinity), Buddhism sees them as inherently conventional terms – man made, not worth clinging to. Not even dragging the Godly into the human realm, just remaining in the human realm full stop.

    “I prostrate to the Perfect Buddha,
    The best of teachers, who taught that Whatever is dependently arisen is Unceasing, unborn,
    Unannihilated, not permanent,
    Not coming, not going,
    Without distinction, without identity,
    And free from conceptual construction.”
    – Nagarjuna

    This isn’t too far from a start to an abstract definition of God, but without key properties, and you have to lose them (permanence, identity) because the world does not provide you with them in the direct, observed physical space, but only at the indirect, inferred limit of the mind.

    This will always be the case, because the scientific method depends on the duality of the observer and the observed, and One makes neither an observational experimental setup, nor a statistic possible. All will always remain outside of the realm of the scientific method, which is only an epistemological conviction that ‘truth’ is only gained through direct observation. Because of this, One – life’s drive for objectification into the abstract reached its terminus – will continue to remain within the sphere of inferred information until the burden is consciously laid aside.

    https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

  13. Alfred says:

    It is about time the Chinese and Russians put their own NGO’s in Western Europe and the USA – so as to come up with lots of complaints about racism, torture and so on. Per capita, the USA imprisons far more people. Deservedly or not, a vast proportion of Blacks spend time in prison. Just imagine what could be made of that!

    This is an information war, it is time to take the offensive. Playing a defensive game is not effective.

    • Replies: @Jason Liu
    , @frankie p
  14. Half-Jap says:

    Essentially, the PRC’s policy has been ‘if we possibly saw it or spit on it sometime in the past, then it’s rightfully ours.’ We here are half-expecting Okinawa to be claimed next, considering Tibet, an ancient tributary to many mostly Chinese dynasties, is under occupation and actively had ethnic Han settle there as a matter of policy. Even Taiwan has long been considered a barbarous island outside the middle kingdom, along with barbarous Japan. Too bad the backwards Uyghur nation is forcibly being ‘civilized’ or ‘modernized’ in the mainlander’s fashion. What productiveness would be contributed by a remote tribe out in nowhere who’d rather be left alone in their ways?
    (In passing…kinda reminds me of Japan in Korea, although their leaders wanted it and some guy even assassinated the foremost political heavyweight who was against annexation lol.)

    • Replies: @Jason Liu
  15. Anonymous [AKA "everything is related"] says:

    I don’t like to go to the details in this case, I like the big picture.
    Europe + Asia + Africa=big world/old world
    North & South America=small world/new world
    Australia = Island
    Unless you can change the continents positions and reprint the earth map, you can’t change the fact.

    What happens to the far away small world ppl if the big world is safe & peaceful (or just being simply as safe as the small world)? Big world would get better develops and become much more prosperous than small world (this is exactly what had happened to the small world ppl before the white ppl landed) .
    USA get its dominant status since world wars happens at the land of big world! USA will never forget that! People from the big world should also never forget it.
    So what would USA do to continue benefit itself since the world wars has ended? Keep the big world fighting with each other! Let the war continue!

    This is what the Anglo-Saxon ppl on the small island(Britain) had done to the ppl in Europe land hundreds years ago. Luckily nowadays it seems like the great ppl in Germany are good enough to unit Europe under its leading and kick the nasty Brits away from EU, finally, thank goodness.
    Unluckily, now the Anglo-Saxon ppl in small world of USA just inherited the tradition and continues the same old trick to the ppl in the big world.

    Mid-east, positions in the middle of Europe and Asia, the heart of the big world. Keep them fighting!
    Being poor, being religious, being different in nations and tribes, being cursed with oil, MID-EAST, what a blessing to USA! God does love America.
    Mid-Asia, you just can’t be separated from Mid-east.

    What does Europe and Asia get from a f*cked up mid-east and mid-Asia?
    Poor & religious immigrant for Europe. Chaotic and conflicts for Asia. We get a f*cked up world we living in.
    Without safety in the big world, USA become heaven for money and talents.
    F*cked up Europe and Asia = promise land USA

    Anyone who lives in the old world that curses China to fail to USA, you have no eye, no heart, no brain, no backbone, no loyal to your land and your people.
    USA can do all this shit to China, you think USA can’t do it to your land your ppl? You think it has not did it, not doing it, will not do it?
    Maybe you think you belong to no unity, no team, nowhere, so you don’t give a shit. OK, just don’t take side, any side.
    Maybe you think you belong to a very small/specific unity in this big world, that you can betray your land and take the USA side. Well, why don’t you and your people just immigrant to USA? Why don’t you shut up and leave for good?

    China is the only chance for the people of the big world to overthrow this evil manipulation of the USA from small world.
    Britain failed, German failed, Russian failed, Japanese failed, now they want Chinese fail.

    Well, barbarians don’t read history long enough since they are not interested in others history.
    Barbarians can’t keep record for any longer history, that’s why they are barbarians.
    Short sighted barbarian talk decades, record hundred years, fabricate all the rest thousands of years, and started to tarnish others, that’s the best they can do.

    If only you read and learn, you will know that, this time China won’t fail. China never fail at its rising period during the long history.
    The old world will be great again. MAGA is just a big ironic omen to what’s really going on.
    History is happening, be a witness. Keep alive, it won’t take too long, 30 years max.

  16. @Jason Liu

    Though all eye-witness accounts of Xinjiang are positive, you are assuming that our media are telling the truth about it.

    Why?

    • Replies: @Jason Liu
  17. @Talha

    “destruction of centuries-old mosques. Bad move guys, really bad PR.”

    Nonsense. Why do you think the Shaolin Temple has been razed fourteen times in the past 2,000 years? That’s how the government sends a message–harmless to living beings–not to be naughty.

    When you see a mosque or church being knocked down you know that it has been receiving (but not declaring) foreign money or acting as a terrorist center, or is just plain illegal, like this one in France:https://i.imgur.com/vv8af76.jpg

    It beats destroying the congregation, which is the preferred solution amongst Wahabbis.

    And as to another country accepting 9 million Chinese Uyghurs? What are you smoking? They don’t even want to leave! They want to stay there and do their thing, as they’ve done for centuries. It’s their home, for God’s sake.

    • Replies: @Talha
  18. @Lo

    Where are you getting your information? Fox News?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  19. @anonymous

    “To follow Islam is to finally comprehend the Almighty One, about as much as a human can be expected to comprehend the Incomprehensible.”

    To follow Islam, according to Islam, means the death penalty if you ever choose to leave Islam.

    There are thousands of element within Islam that I despise but that one salient rule – the death penalty for apostasy – above all the other violent, murderous, rules and laws of Islam emanating from its “holy book,” the Quran, tell me all that I need to know about Islam.

    • Replies: @Talha
  20. @Lo

    Did you see how many Chinese the Uyghurs have murdered?

    China hasn’t honored its deals? China?

    Name one.

    Name one deal that it has not honored–either with the Uyghurs, or another minority, or the WTO.

    Not an allegation. A fully worked out case with evidence.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @J. Zete
    , @Lo
  21. This article clearly shows that US intelligence agencies and US government policy is behind the organisation, activities, and actions of the Muslim terrorists in China so the conflict takes another dimension, even if the Muslims may have had some genuine grievance about their position in China, or if it their position was any worse than that of some other ethnic or religious minorities there. Since the US is happy to fund terrorists that will go about killing ordinary Chinese people going about their daily business I don’t think the response of the Chinese government is heavy-handed. All I can say is that it’s unfortunate but things are likely to get far worse as the US pulls out all the stops and mobilises everyone and everything it can to wreck the plans for the new Silk Road and the Eurasian socio-economic project. It’s a war out there and if the US and its proxies in the region won’t back down why should those they’re attacking?

  22. @anonymous

    “…There is nothing toxic about Islam. Islam simply means submission to the One God of all existence. It is the polar opposite of Paganism, Polytheism, Animism, Idolatry, Mangods-worship (Jesus, Vishnu, Shiva, Zoroaster, Buddha…), and so on…”

    Exactly because Islam is “the polar opposite” of all non-Muslim religions, IT IS AT WAR WITH THEM. And “submission to the One God” in concrete terms means SUBMISSION TO MUSLIMS. Hence aqggressive JIHAD and forced SHARIA. That my friend is the toxic of Islam. You Muslims are too stupid to understand WHY you are troublesome, always and everywhere.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  23. @Jason Liu

    Very interesting angle, within the logical sphere of today.
    Best effort. Better knowledge of existing situation.

  24. Talha says:
    @MartinAlaskan

    Death penalty for apostasy is not in the Quran, check your source.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  25. Godfree is trying to be more Chinese than Han themselves. It is always a good laugh to read him on Chinese matters. He is so “objective”.

    • Replies: @Lo
  26. Talha says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    When you see a mosque or church being knocked down you know that it has been receiving (but not declaring) foreign money or acting as a terrorist center

    Yes of course, why would anyone doubt when the Chinese government’s word when they give a reason to destroy a centuries old church or mosque (or temple)? That would be silly to question them, they would never lie!

    Well, I guess if destroying ancient places of worship is the de facto way of dealing with issues in China, carry on.

    It beats destroying the congregation, which is the preferred solution amongst Wahabbis.

    That’s your virtue signaling attempt? You aren’t as bad as the Wahhabis?

    “Well, we could have raped and burned them, but hey, we’re not the Mongol Horde!”

    And as to another country accepting 9 million Chinese Uyghurs?

    I wasn’t talking about forcing them out at gun point, I was talking about coming up with a deal that would be beneficial to all sides involved.

    Peace.

  27. Jason Liu says:
    @Talha

    Encouraging Uighurs to move out is a good idea but the CCP is so afraid of criticism (and Uighurs WILL badmouth China once they leave the country) that they’d rather destroy China’s reputation with to unsustainable repression. It’s short-term thinking, possibly caused by factional pressures within the CCP to “act tough” or lose legitimacy.

    • Replies: @Anon
  28. Jason Liu says:
    @Lo

    I am a Chinese nationalist and I will not give up established territory. And the Uighur homeland is a bit north of Xinjiang, actually. There are only three sustainable options:

    1. We live together in peace. That means less oppression from the government/Han majority, but also no SJW-style agitation from the Uighurs.

    2. They assimilate into the Zhonghua collective, becoming as sinicized as most other minority groups.

    3. They leave.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Lo
  29. Jason Liu says:
    @Alfred

    I completely agree with using moral and ideological pressure on the West, via NGOs and media and academia, putting them on the defensive.

    But the problem is China does not have the credibility or social structure to do this. Most Chinese don’t even know what a social structure is, including the government. It’s why nobody cares when China comes out with its annual white paper on “Human Rights in the USA”. Even Chinese don’t find it credible. It’s like a bad joke.

    Until Beijing wakes up and realizes soft power isn’t just about throwing money at stuff, we can’t pull off an ideological attack on the West.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  30. Jason Liu says:
    @Half-Jap

    There is no attempt to claim Okinawa, that’s just some dumb internet nationalist shit. There might be some attempt to foment Okinawan independence. Also dumb.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  31. @Talha

    Perhaps so but that’s the law in the Muslim theocracies and where not it is so practiced by the Muslim community itself. I suppose a lot of what Muslims do isn’t really “Muslim” but that’s what we have to go by. If all those causing trouble in the name of Islam didn’t consider themselves to be true Muslims they could declare themselves to be something else. But I guess they fear that death penalty. And if they have to get killed anyway better prospects thereafter getting killed in a jihad. Kind of like those junky, criminal, homosexual, alcoholic, rapist convicts who blow themselves up after getting radicalised in jail – sort of washes all their sins away.

    • Replies: @Talha
  32. Jason Liu says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I don’t assume western media is telling the truth about Xinjiang. They’re not allowed access for one, and are prone to hysterical sensationalism. It probably isn’t 3 million and mostly certainly isn’t “genocide”, unless you water down the term to be meaningless.

    But still, there’s too much smoke to be no fire. Chinese state media is obviously not transparent either, and their “nothing to see here!” stance is such crappy propaganda it wouldn’t fool a child.

    None of the testimonies from individual Uighurs are true? The satellite imagery don’t imply anything at all? The photos of Uighurs in uniforms at ‘school’? It can’t all be explained away as a western smear job.

    Not to mention that perception is what matters in soft power. Scandalous accusations like “concentration camps” will cling to China for decades, even if it’s only based on a grain of truth. Since China has no global media reach, it should refrain from heavy-handed actions that moves it closer to pariah status on the world stage.

    So there are four reasons why the CCP is acting this way, none of which are good.

    1. They think the Uighur threat is huge and overreacted, which is retarded.
    2. They think the world won’t find out/care, which is retarded.
    3. They think it China’s image doesn’t matter because we’re big and have money, which is retarded.
    4. They think China’s version of ‘truth’ will win out against negative perceptions, which is super retarded.

    Not all old men are tone deaf and socially inept autists. Pretty much everyone in the CCP is, though.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @Talha
    , @Lo
    , @last straw
  33. J. Zete says: • Website

    Are there any connections to the Saudis with Uyghurs? What about more broadly in China, have the Saudis been as brazen with their funding of destruction as in the West? Would the Chinese let them?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  34. Half-Jap says:
    @Jason Liu

    I am for Okinawan independence, however.
    They are, even after centuries of Japan, still distinct people.
    Yes, I am nationalistic, but I am for their nation too.

    • Replies: @Lo
  35. Half-Jap says:
    @Jason Liu

    Salient points…
    I would never trust anybody’s testimony if their circumstance would not allow for free and honest expression. Anybody within the PRC is unfortunately suspect under current circumstance. Not that Uyghur activists are also trustworthy.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  36. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    https://www.farmprogress.com/trade/wto-finds-china-violated-wto-commitments

    I could go directly to the WTO, as I did last time with the DOJ and FTC for you to find all sorts violations, but here is just one article as I am tired of this ‘name one thing’ game.

    What you are doing is legalistic, as in yes, someone may be in compliance with certain agreements and exceptions granted to it, but it does not mean they are violating the charter or spirit of the granting organization or constitution. Some would call it sophistry, others good lawyering.

    As a side-note, the US is the worst in violating the spirit of this allegedly free-trade promoting entity, but hey, who cares about rules if you’re at the center of a dollar denominated system eh?

  37. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    There is only one Muslim theocracy – where clerics run the state – and that is Iran.

    As far as the ruling itself – it is based on various hadith that have differing levels of interpretation; there is a difference of opinion on it (whether it is obligatory or not to execute simply apostates or only ones that apostate and are a threat to the state). The Ottomans themselves waived the penalty when they started the Tanzimat reforms – and even before that, they had started to exile apostates instead.

    Some countries still follow the ruling to execute them and some either penalize them another way and some absolutely nothing – depends on the country. Since we have no central religious or political authority, individual countries will continue to apply their own local flavor.

    Kind of like those junky, criminal, homosexual, alcoholic, rapist convicts who blow themselves up after getting radicalised in jail

    Yes, this actually happens unfortunately. Olivier Roy wrote an excellent article on this very dangerous phenomenon:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  38. onebornfree says: • Website

    It never ends.

    Yet another idiotic article from a state/government obsessed sycophantic twit intent on “proving” that Chinese totalitarianism is somehow “superior” to US/Western totalitarianism.

    Prisoners Tortured, Drugged, Killed by Injection in Xinjiang ‘Re-Education Camps,’ Ex-Inmate Reveals”

    “Uyghur women detained in China’s so-called “vocational training centers” are being psychologically and physically tortured, poisoned, and killed by injection, a former detainee has told The Epoch Times.

    Uyghur and Kazakhstan national Gulbakhar Jalilova, 54, said she witnessed the atrocities during her 15-month internment in an all-female camp in the Xinjiang capital of Urumqi before she was released in September.

    “There were girls from my room who passed out from being beaten so hard, and had nails put into their fingers to make blood pour out,” she told The Epoch Times in a phone interview from Istanbul, Turkey.

    Gulbakhar, a businesswoman who was detained in May 2017, was accused of transferring $17,000 to a company called Nur. She was released after being found innocent.

    While detained, her fellow inmate named Horiyat was “put to sleep … she was killed by injection.”

    “She was injected but her body was still warm, and other girls were ordered to wash her body. She just died like that in front of me,” Gulbakhar explained………..:

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/prisoners-tortured-drugged-killed-by-injection-in-xinjiang-re-education-camps-ex-inmate-reveals_2738106.html

    George Orwell’s Dystopian Nightmare In China:

    “It has become fairly cliché to call China’s surveillance state – its artificial intelligence-driven facial recognition, the new “social credit system,” its cultural policing and re-education camps for Uyghur minorities – “something right out of George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four.”But that doesn’t mean it’s not true……”:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-25/george-orwells-dystopian-nightmare-china

    China: The Perfect High-Tech Totalitarian State:

    ” In China, censorship, now largely automated, has reached “unprecedented levels of accuracy, aided by machine learning and voice and image recognition.”— Cate Cadell, Reuters, May 26, 2019.

    As in other Communist regimes, such as that of the former Soviet Union, the Communist ideology does not tolerate any competing narratives. “Religion is a source of authority, and an object of fidelity, that is greater than the state… This characteristic of religion has always been anathema to history’s totalitarian despots…” — Thomas F. Farr, President of the Religious Freedom Institute, in testimony before the Congressional-Executive Commission on China, November 28, 2018.

    In 2018, China had an estimated 200 million surveillance cameras, with plans for 626 million surveillance cameras by 2020. China’s aim is apparently an “Integrated Joint Operations Platform” which will integrate and coordinate data from surveillance cameras with facial recognition technology, citizen ID card numbers, biometric data, license plate numbers and information about vehicle ownership, health, family planning, banking, and legal records, “unusual activity”, and any other relevant data that can be gathered about citizens, such as religious practice, travels abroad, and so on, according to reports of local officials and police.

    At the moment, China is in the process of fulfilling what Stalin, Hitler and Mao could only dream about: The flawless totalitarian state, powered by digital technology, where the individual has nowhere to flee from the all-seeing eye of the Communist state…….”

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14365/china-totalitarian-technology

    Chinese Authorities Detain Netizens Who Express Support for Hong Kong Protests:

    “…Authorities in mainland China have begun to detain Chinese netizens who express any online support for Hong Kong protests against a government extradition proposal, as continuing demonstrations in the city have stoked worldwide interest.

    Many Hongkongers are worried that if the bill were to pass, Beijing could potentially pressure the city government to hand over citizens of any nationality to face trial in the Chinese regime’s courts under false pretenses. They also perceive the measure as further evidence of Beijing eroding Hong Kong’s autonomy since the territory reverted from British to Chinese rule in 1997…..”:

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/chinese-authorities-detain-netizens-who-express-support-for-hong-kong-protests_2977665.html

    No Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Godfree Roberts
    , @Zeb
  39. @Talha

    There is only one Muslim theocracy – where clerics run the state – and that is Iran.

    I am not familiar with the current structure of government in the Islamic Republic of Iran (they do have parliamentary elections nevertheless) but I would have included Saudi Arabia too since Islamic Sharia law is the state law there.

    Good article.

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @Talha
  40. Agent76 says:

    May 7, 2019 China’s secret internment camps

    China has been quietly detaining its population of Uighurs, the country’s Muslim minority, in internment camps.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  41. Anonymous [AKA "Ano3"] says:

    These “amazing people” you write about were not German or Scandinavian.

    (How did you come with such a bizarre idea anyway? Ethnocentrism much?)

    Their Y haplogroup was the Eurasian R1a currently massively found among the Slavic, Balt and Central Asian populations.

    Their kin built the Sintashta Arkaim civilization and transferred the Indo-European Vedic language and religion to the Indian subcontinent.

    They were the ancestors of the Tocharians, the Seres and the Asioi/Asii described by the ancient Greek and Roman historians in present-day Northern China and were also known as Saka and Scythians in the Caspian and Black Sea areas.

    Their kin were also the ancestors of the Zoroastrian Persians of Cyrus the Great.

    In fact, Zoroastrian religion was probably born in Central Asia, in the Aryan invaded BAMAC.

    Finally, their descendants helped a lot building the Mahayana Buddhism in the present day Afghanistan, Xinjiang and Tadjikistan.

    They transmitted the Buddhism to the Han Chinese and the Tibetans.

    Their direct descendants make up around 40% of the ethic Uyghur population today and around 20% of the Han Chinese in the Gansu province, probably connected with Majiayao culture ancestry.

  42. @Jason Liu

    “The entire Uighur panic assumes that Central Asian Islam is anything like Arabian Islam, and failing to realize that their newfound Wahabbism is a reaction caused by China coming down too hard on them. It is not a natural development.”

    Wahabbism was a natural development in the region. Wahabbism crept into MENA around the same time when Saudi Arabia gained control of its petroleum and oil prices skyrocketed. The Wahabis became well funded and started Wahabi schools all around MENA. Then it spread to SEA. The only reason it did not initially spread to Central Asia was because of the Soviets. After the fall of the Berlin wall, it started to spread into the region.

    “The whole approach smells like some old fuck in Beijing read an article about Europe’s rapefugees and decided the exact same thing would happen here unless we sent in the
    military police.”

    I can agree somewhat with this. The Chinese leadership is a bunch of stiff engineers. Their reactions are always calculated without taking into account the human side of things. It is like having a physicist running the HR department. That’s why the Western media has an easy time demonizing the Chinese government. Way too easy. Despite getting 800+ million people out of poverty and improving the living standards of more than a billion people within a few decades. Just those two accomplishments alone would have put any other country in a better standing with others.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  43. Yee says:

    Jason Liu,

    “Encouraging Uighurs to move out is a good idea but the CCP is so afraid of criticism (and Uighurs WILL badmouth China once they leave the country)”

    How strange… You seem to think there isn’t already a full-sphere media outside bad-mouthing China…

    I’ll love for the Uyghur to go to America, taking their Wahhabism with them. They can join the other CIA funded groups all they want.

  44. Yee says:

    everything is related ,

    “USA get its dominant status since world wars happens at the land of big world! USA will never forget that! People from the big world should also never forget it.
    So what would USA do to continue benefit itself since the world wars has ended? Keep the big world fighting with each other! Let the war continue!”

    Exactly…

    That’s what the US has been doing. Get the Slavs fighting Slavs; MiddleEast fighting MiddleEast; Asians fighting Asians; Africans fighting Africans…

    Anyway, the manipulating skills and brainwashing skills of the US are truly impressive, I must admit.

  45. Half-Jap says:

    I’m just wondering where all the Naga went, so I could ask them to recount the Adam and Eve story as they learned or told it, before we, too, are erased in the next terminus of the cycle, and figure out a story about our times to tell for the survivors.

  46. Yee says:

    Religion addicts of extremism are as harmful to a society as drug addicts…

    Drug addicts regularly got sent to rehabilitation, religion addicts would be treated the same. Hope the rehabilitation will help them.

  47. anon[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    Abrahamic cults all claim to be monotheistic, but actually worship a whole Pantheon of magical beings.

    The One God = Nature. Deus, sive Natura.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  48. Yee says:

    Xinjiang hasn’t had a terrorist attack in 3 years, of course the US is angry…

  49. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I would have included Saudi Arabia too since Islamic Sharia law is the state law there.

    Saudi Arabia is weird in that there is an understanding or power-sharing agreement between the monarchy and the religious clerics (mostly Wahhabi types*). Shariah law is actually technically the law in many Muslim countries (monarchies, republics and dictatorships) as enshrined in the constitutions. These are not theocracies since they are not run by clerics (like the RC Church used to actually run political affairs):
    “Theocracy, government by divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. In many theocracies, government leaders are members of the clergy, and the state’s legal system is based on religious law. ”
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/theocracy

    In these other countries, the government is run by normal people, but legislation must adhere to constitutional provisions that the people have chosen to be tied to Islam as the state religion.

    Good article.

    Olivier Roy is an absolute expert in the field and I would recommend any of the many books he has written.

    Peace.

    *And even this is not clear cut because the state will execute dissident clerics:
    “At least 80 respected scholars and teachers of the Muslim faith, from many countries but mostly Anglophone ones, have lent their names to a plea to the Saudi authorities. It urges the kingdom to spare the lives of three well-known figures in the world of Islam. The trio have been incarcerated on “terrorism” charges since 2017. They had refused to back the kingdom’s diplomatic and economic blockade of neighbouring Qatar, at a time when this was becoming a litmus-test of loyalty and securing the support of prominent and mildly independent-minded imams seemed to have become a high priority for the regime.”
    https://www.economist.com/erasmus/2019/06/02/a-muslim-appeal-for-saudi-arabia-to-show-mercy

  50. Yee says:

    ExistentialRealism,

    “That’s why the Western media has an easy time demonizing the Chinese government. Way too easy.”

    Actually, the Western Media can demonize anyone they want easily, no matter what you do. I seem to recall plenty of intellectuals or scholars got demonized even in America.

    Trying to pleased the US is stepping into their trap.

  51. Talha says:
    @Jason Liu

    Not all old men are tone deaf and socially inept autists. Pretty much everyone in the CCP is, though.

    The way they approach things seems to be a variation of how some Arab dictators approach things. However, these guys have a heck of a lot more resources and technology at their disposal so they can pull it off better or a lot longer.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  52. Half-Jap says:
    @Talha

    Indeed. Regardless, the dynastic cycle may nevertheless be arriving to an accelerated and rapid completion here. The fear of this I can understand, and the stronger they control must be to postpone the inevitable. At least, they are far from the Eternal Emperor’s rule by virtue.

  53. @Jason Liu

    While both han and Uighurs are comers to this place, I find your arguement pragmatic. Unless it is about as you said established territories currently within China, not any place some ancient Chinese temporary conquered or those who conquered China and later became Chinese lived in before moving to China.

  54. anon[264] • Disclaimer says:

    ” the Central Intelligence Agency, with assistance from some of China’s neighbors, put $30 million into the destabilization of Tibet”

    …what exactly is stopping the Chinese from doing the same to the US? Have you seen that empire’s demographics lately? One of their presidential candidates, Elizabeth Warren, just called for open borders. There would seem to be an opportunity there.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  55. gT says:
    @utu

    Even worse, horror of horrors, some of the ancient Chinese were pretty dark, even black. But apparently the last of them black mongoloid types disappeared during the Cultural Revolution thanks to Mao. Genghis Khan is often depicted as being very black, and he was from the north.

    https://medium.com/@PacoTaylor/ancient-chinese-secret-these-14-phenomenal-photos-reveal-there-were-indeed-black-chinese-6261468b4102

    There is also a bit of noise being made about the appearance of some of the Terracotta Soldiers.

  56. The article is not accurate when it comes to the history facts, it shows only a politicized view. Regardless, the author describes well the hypocrisy of the free world, such as democracy, liberalism or human rights to be for us only or even terrorism to be okay when we do it to others, ….. !
    My point here the root of the story to ruin this region and put it in turmoil goes way back in practice (not in idea or plan) to John Foster Dulles when he famously said: “Middle east is sitting on 2 seas, a sea of oil that is vital to turn the wheels of our economy and a sea of Islam that is vital to defeat Communism”. This strategy is being carried out until today with the difference that USA was using proxy states to execute the plan, but now from W Bush to currently, the US is being now the proxy state of others, performing wars on behalf of 1-2-3 states, remain nameless.
    Just count, based on what you call political Islam, the coup in Pakistan that brought hideous criminal Zia who was conducting attacks with the CIA help or assistance on USSR frontal posts with Afghanistan instigating the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, who pushed the House of Saudi and Mubarak’ Egypt to provide the ideology, the money, the recruitment, the brain washing to jobless youth to go fight US’ wars!
    Other than that Yes, there is a real Political Islam but it is not what you did defined above, it the liberation from Autocratic and Anthocratic regimes and dominance, in other words freedom from the dominance of the church (just remind what was the label given to Martin Luther, when put his 95 thesis on the church door) and the dominance of the Man (Money and ideology), those being on the US payroll most latest Field Marshal Assisi who never fought a war in his life expect against defenseless human being.

  57. @Talha

    “By using a variety of tools, including subscription services, open sources and collaborative mapping applications, we can identify that these two mosques have undergone significant structural changes over the course of 2018. This changes translate into the loss of beautiful and historic buildings, such as the gatehouse at Keriya Mosque and a large portion of the Kargilik Mosque”
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/04/05/are-historic-mosques-in-xinjiang-being-destroyed/

    You do realize, I suppose, (it is fairly generally known) that Bellingcat was founded by an “ex” MI6 man? And the BBC is about as reliable a source of news as VOA or DV? Pretty good on the sports news and the weather though. It hardly mentions Palestine from one year’s end to the next.

    • Replies: @Talha
  58. “Well yeah – it’s tough to deny satellite images of destruction of centuries-old mosques:
    https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-show-china-destroys-mosques-to-install-police-state-on-muslims-2019-4”.

    Just as a matter of interest, are these satellite images confirmed by anyone else? By Google Earth, for example? Call me cynical if you like but it is very easy to allege such destruction and much more work to check it. It is possible to find such images from elsewhere and most people would assume that they were where they were said to be, but as Sporting Life observed: “It ain’t necessarily so!” Most people would not bother. Also, I have in mind a BBC TV report of rioting in the “streets of Kiev” in which the shops’ names, the shouts and the banners were all in Greek!

    • Replies: @Talha
  59. Talha says:
    @foolisholdman

    Nope did not know that.

    Thanks!

    Peace.

  60. Talha says:
    @foolisholdman

    are these satellite images confirmed by anyone else?

    Actually, we had verification of the practice right here. Mr. Godfree is the most ardent supporter of the PRC I’ve ever come across.

    He didn’t deny the practice at all, he simply confirmed that it is modus operandi as far as the PRC is concerned; dissidents or suspects with foreign ties will have their houses of worship demolished as a lesson.

    Look, I honestly do not expect anything different from a secular ethno-nationalist communist government, it’s basically par for the course – in fact, it is less brutal than what other communist manifestations have done in the past in other places. I would just like transparency, not much to ask. Just come out and say; we destroyed this mosque because we found a group of Wahhabi-connected men attending Friday prayers there or we destroyed this church because it received funding from Italy.

    See for instance my post #37 – I’m not hiding anything, I’m laying it out as best and concise as I can even though it is an embarrassing topic to discuss in the modern world.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  61. @gT

    Genghis Khan isn’t depicted as black, he was depicted with light skin and blue eyes.

    https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2015/01/Merlin_5723730-1024×720.jpg&w=1484

    Rashid al Din said all the Mongols of the Borjigin clan were light skinned, blue eyed and red haired. He also painted them very light:

    • Replies: @Anounder
    , @gT
  62. Lo says:
    @Jason Liu

    1. We live together in peace. That means less oppression from the government/Han majority, but also no SJW-style agitation from the Uighurs.

    This is the only realistic solution. However, CCP is paranoid. So they can’t just let people be. I see no assimilation without continuing oppressive policies, and while small in China, Uighur population is still larger than populations of Sweden or Norway. So where are they supposed to leave for? Anyway, it is kinda ridiculous to see a giant country worry about issues like this and overreact like the way they do.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  63. Lo says:
    @Half-Jap

    Okinawans are very nice people, a distinct culture too. Though I don’t think they have issues with Japan. I am afraid if Japan gave independence to Okinawa, China would soon claim it too.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @denk
  64. Lo says:
    @Jason Liu

    1. They think the Uighur threat is huge and overreacted, which is retarded.
    2. They think the world won’t find out/care, which is retarded.
    3. They think it China’s image doesn’t matter because we’re big and have money, which is retarded.
    4. They think China’s version of ‘truth’ will win out against negative perceptions, which is super retarded.

    Refreshingly adult opinions from a Chinese. Usually, by this point, an average Chinese would start screaming about Opium Wars and foreign invaders instead of sensibly talking about the subject topic.

    Chinese state media is obviously not transparent either, and their “nothing to see here!” stance is such crappy propaganda it wouldn’t fool a child.

    Don’t say that, it fools Mr. Godfree Roberts every time.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  65. Lo says:
    @gT

    Genghis Khan was described as being blonde haired, and green-eyed. The photos you posted prove nothing. Working under the sun, especially on dry climates for a long time can make even whites appear black. It is just the skin color though.

  66. LondonBob says:
    @anon

    Do the Chinese need to, the left are doing a good enough job already.

  67. Lo says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I was going to refer WTO, Half-Jap was faster than me. You can address his comment if you wish.

  68. frankie p says:
    @Alfred

    It is tempting, I’m sure, for the Russians or Chinese, but cooler heads prevail and they will not do so. It would violate their principles concerning national interest and the non-interference in the affairs of other nations. I have often mused about the prospects of “African-American Slavery Museums”, “Native American Genocide Museums”, or any list of “memorial museums” dotting the landscape in major Chinese cities. It will never come to pass. The Chinese are good neighbors, and they have an attitude of getting on with one’s work and one’s life without nosing into and commenting on the affairs of others. In this respect, they follow the rule of “Do unto others as you would have them do to you” much more than the unhinged R2P western clowns.

    Frankie P

  69. @Jason Liu

    So there are four reasons why the CCP is acting this way, none of which are good.

    1. They think the Uighur threat is huge and overreacted, which is retarded.
    2. They think the world won’t find out/care, which is retarded.
    3. They think it China’s image doesn’t matter because we’re big and have money, which is retarded.
    4. They think China’s version of ‘truth’ will win out against negative perceptions, which is super retarded.

    Not all old men are tone deaf and socially inept autists. Pretty much everyone in the CCP is, though.

    Regarding 1, maybe the Chinese intelligence knows something that we don’t. But overall, it’s probably because Xi Jinging is blinded by his own power.

  70. DB Cooper says:
    @Lo

    Hey fucktard, if you have to be a minority of some country the best place on earth is to be a minority in China. Believe me.

    • LOL: Lo
    • Replies: @Lo
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
  71. Anounder says:
    @gT

    You’re unironically linking a Black We Wuz Kangz monkey. It’s no wonder that his site isn’t taken more seriously with the likes of you among them.

  72. Anon[287] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    https://pastebin.com/r7xnK9Mu

    Remember to spam this link and other sources against this poster.

  73. Anon[287] • Disclaimer says:
    @onebornfree

    All that babble, and you still don’t have an ideology that works in the Real World outside of small isolated tribes that aren’t at war with bigger neighbors.

    What happened to the Injuns again?

  74. Anounder says:
    @Sam Coulton

    You’re arguing wiht a man who unironically links Afrocentrics. Basketball Amerimutts don’t have a real identity so they cook up imaginary lineages linking them to lands like Egypt.

  75. @gT

    Here we go with this we wuz kangs bullshit…

  76. @DB Cooper

    Would you mind passing that secret along to about 5-6 million of your closest Hindu relatives? I have also heard that the Chinese are extremely tolerant of open defecation in the city streets.

  77. It became pretty clear early on the aim of this piece was to whitewash China and denigrate the Uighers.

    Well, the Islamophobes should lap it up.

    • Replies: @denk
  78. Yee says:

    “Refreshingly adult opinions from a Chinese.”

    Just a Chinese in America who gets dumb-downed too…

    Any clear-headed Chinese would have judged the leadership by how much they have improved our country, not by what Western Media say about us.

    Western Media is just dog trainning – do as they tell you, “good boy”… Why should China give such power to the West? At least dogs get a piece of meat as well getting trained, not just a “good boy”.

    • Replies: @Lo
  79. Good article, makes sense, I knew the minute I heard the concentration camp story it was CIA propaganda. They really need some smarter people, people have caught on to their old tricks. Its pretty sad how everyone here just buys all the propaganda. Same with all the sock puppets still pushing the Red Scare commie boogieman propaganda that was put to bed long ago. Its about as believable as the Russia-gate nonsense.

    This is just CIA/Wall St pissing in Chinas cornflakes over OBOR, same ol BS as always, I’m just going to assume from now on that everything they tell us about China is a fucking lie, because it is. Same with the terror attacks in Sri Lanka recently, blowing up Churches filled with Christians, but I’m supposed to believe its the communists that kill Christians, yeah fuck you you fucking terrorists… how much money are you knuckleheads wasting on this BS while America rots?

    https://www.mintpressnews.com/sri-lanka-how-saudi-backed-terror-isis-targeted-chinas-allies/258170/

    https://www.mintpressnews.com/leaked-memo-suggests-saudi-government-role-sri-lanka-easter-bombings/258524/

    https://www.mintpressnews.com/sri-lanka-easter-attacks-saudi-state-sponsored-extremism-strikes-again/257663/

    Sad that this started on JC’s watch, I think he’s done a lot of good since he left office. He still holds Sunday school every week at his church here in Ga. I reckon he knows he’s got a lot to answer for when he kicks the bucket. He’s one of the few that have spoken up for the Palestinians and against Israels crimes, I guess he’s trying to get right with God for not doing more to stop the CIA in Afghanistan and Nicaragua. He is one of the few Presidents in history that hasn’t taken us to war as a country though, so I guess he deserves a little praise for that.

    I think that the CIA/Wall St has pretty much taken over foreign policy/war as far as that is concerned, the President is pretty much powerless against these demons at this point. These agencies and their economic system need to be abolished/overthrown if there is ever to be any kind of peace, they’re totally out of control. Feels like this country is being run by the fucking mafia. Probably cause it is!

    Carter made these comments recently when he talked to Trump:

    US Most Warlike Nation in History of the World
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/

    “Since 1979, do you know how many times China has been at war with anybody?” Carter asked.
    “None, and we have stayed at war.” While it is true that China’s last major war — an invasion of Vietnam — occurred in 1979, its People’s Liberation Army pounded border regions of Vietnam with artillery and its navy battled its Vietnamese counterpart in the 1980s. Since then, however, China has been at peace with its neighbors and the world.

    Carter then said the US has been at peace for only 16 of its 242 years as a nation. Counting wars, military attacks and military occupations, there have actually only been five years of peace in US history — 1976, the last year of the Gerald Ford administration and 1977-80, the entirety of Carter’s presidency. Carter then referred to the US as “the most warlike nation in the history of the world,” a result, he said, of the US forcing other countries to “adopt our American principles.”

    It’s more than you can imagine,” Carter said of US war spending. “China has not wasted a single penny on war, and that’s why they’re ahead of us. In almost every way.”

    “And I think the difference is if you take $3 trillion and put it in American infrastructure you’d probably have $2 trillion leftover,” Carter told his congregation. “We’d have high-speed railroad. We’d have bridges that aren’t collapsing, we’d have roads that are maintained properly. Our education system would be as good as that of say South Korea or Hong Kong.”

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @RobinG
  80. Yee says:

    MikeatMikedotMike,

    “I have also heard that the Chinese are extremely tolerant of open defecation in the city streets.”

    Not as much as Westerners, I guess…

    Chinese tourists all comment on the smell of urinate in major Western cities, which is a big shock to many of them. For all the stories of babies shitting on the streets, they don’t shit enough to stink up the cities.

  81. MEFOBILLS says:
    @anon

    The One God = Nature. Deus, sive Natura.

    The logos is nature’s god. It is using the power of reason to find god in nature, and nature’s design.
    The logos also means finding the “law” for high civilization.

    For the most part, Islam has stultified its adherents into navel gazing and not inquiring into the real nature of things. They look inward into the corpus of Islam rather than looking outward. They confine themselves to limits.

    Islam religion also has deception at its core, especially with abrogation. Talmud is also a deception religion with sneaky Kol Niedre and usury concepts. Judaizer Christians (those who emphasize the old testament – especially Zionist Christians) also engage in deception.

    If I were China, I would use my State Banks and fund the removal of Islamic adherents. They can find a nice life in Turkey.

  82. I find it pretty amusing that when the CIA sock puppets talk about the Chinese economy that is killing ours in every way, they’re suddenly “capitalists”

    But when they’re pushing their concentration camp propaganda, all of a sudden Chinas back to being “communists”

    So which is it folks? Are the communist Chinese kicking capitalist Americas ass? Or is Capitalist China a horrible dictatorship that puts Muslims in concentration camps? Can’t have it both ways.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  83. Seraphim says:
    @Talha

    But isn’t that what makes the ‘Palestinian problem’ intractable? The pretension that Palestine belongs to the ‘ummah’? That Palestinians can not have a say, but Uyghurs can?

    • Agree: MartinAlaskan
    • Replies: @Talha
  84. @Yee

    “Not as much as Westerners, I guess… ”

    Well you almost detected my sarcasm.. almost, but it seems your hypersensitivity to a perceived slight against orientals prohibited you from seeing that I was referring to Indians.

    “Chinese tourists all comment on the smell of urinate in major Western cities, which is a big shock to many of them.”

    Well we haven’t quite elevated our society to recycling sewer grease or cooking dogs and fish alive for sport, but the Chinese birth tourism racket is just finding its stride, so I implore you to give us more time.

    As far as the smell of Western cities, well, we have our dindus, hindus, and Y tu’s that orientals are fortunate enough not to have. I did however live in Chicago’s Bridgeport neighborhood for some time, which borders Chinatown. I suppose the late summer aroma of rotting vegetation and fish might not be as bad as stale urine, but to each his own.

  85. Lo says:
    @MEFOBILLS

    If I were China, I would use my State Banks and fund the removal of Islamic adherents. They can find a nice life in Turkey.

    If you were China, you would claim you are a developing country and that everyone else must fund your removal of Uighurs because China built a watchtower somewhere in the middle of the desert 2000 years ago, invented gunpowder and the compass, and you will not buy soy from the USA if Western imperialist insists you must behave just like every other nation with regards to treating minorities and you built the longest bridge in the world and therefore you are right.

  86. Lo says:
    @Yee

    Here, there you go. The exact reason why I said “adult opinion” for Jason’s comments in the first place. Talk any topic and Chinese defense is “we built a long bridge, 800 million out of poverty, high-speed train…” But what does it have to do with the subject matter? It is like, when you listen to one Chinese you can assume you also listened to the other 1.35 billion. Are you all coming out from the same manufacturer? Always the same arguments for anything regardless of the topic.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  87. MEFOBILLS says:
    @redmudhooch

    So which is it folks? Are the communist Chinese kicking capitalist Americas ass? Or is Capitalist China a horrible dictatorship that puts Muslims in concentration camps?

    It is communist party rule over a industrial capitalism economy.

    Industrial capitalism injects state credit into industry and the commons. The U.S. used industrial capitalism from 1868 to 1913.

    Finance Capitalism uses international “credit” emitted from private banks. This private international credit is linked to international corporations. The U.S. Federal Reserve Note is not U.S. Dollars. The Yuan IS Chinese money, not international banking credit.

    OK? When CIA is talking capitalism noise, the next question is what kind of capitalism? U.S. finance capitalism, where money power is concentrated in wall street has morphed even further into a form of Oligarchy finance, or late state finance capitalism – which is eating itself.

    China used various techniques to steal america’s patrimony, and the U.S. finance sector helped. I call it the Wall Street China gambit. The U.S. needs to look into the mirror, China is using the American system of economy to great effect, and further – America was duped/cajoled/bribed/pushed into finance capitalism by (((banksters)), who in turn are internationalists.

    The CIA is no longer working for America, but is working for its paymasters – the international. Even the war in Syria recycled petrodollars out of Saudi, to then buy weapons from the MIC.

    Concentration camps are a place to concentrate people. They are not jails, nor are they death camps. There are intermediate places between civilization and jail.

    Yes, the Chinese are kicking america’s ass, and the ass kicking will continue in-perpetuity. Industrial capitalism always wins. Usury inherent in finance capital takes for its right to exist, and it causes inefficiencies – friction in the very money as a tax on the economy, to then pay finance rent seekers. US is permanently inefficient with its debt money finance capitalist system.

  88. Talha says:
    @Seraphim

    The pretension that Palestine belongs to the ‘ummah’?

    There is no pretense, that’s how it is; everyone from Arabs to Turks to Kurds to Persians to Circassians to Nubians, and everyone else I forgot, died conquering and defending that land. That was conquered by the blessed hands and swords of the Companions (ra) themselves as an inheritance for all the Muslims that followed them.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @AaronB
    , @Alden
  89. 1.5 billion Chinese can’t be wrong. Perhaps they’ll all convert to Judaism, like the Khazars, and solve this problem.

  90. @MEFOBILLS

    the Chinese are kicking america’s ass

    What? The Chinese just by getting on and trying to better themselves are somehow “kicking America’s ass”? This comment reveals something about your mindset. Like everything is competition everyone is competing, and if anybody anywhere is doing something better then they’re kicking America’s ass. Now if the whole world thought the same that because America has something bigger and better, like say the most aircraft carriers, the most military bases, etc. that it is kicking the world’s ass? Oh well maybe it is.

    China used various techniques to steal america’s patrimony, and the U.S. finance sector helped.

    Maybe China didn’t “steal” but Americans betrayed and sold out their own. Want to keep your own technology then don’t transfer it to others. Simple.

  91. denk says:

    uncle scam the professional arsonist,,

    ‘Fuller was tapped last year to head the study on potential Asian ethic “fracture zones.” The CIA’s Office of Transnational Issues, which contracted for the study, was interested in gauging whether China might ”pop its cork” any time soon, Fuller said in interviews with Reuters this week. Citing former colleagues at Langley, he said CIA in-house analysts, stung by lapses in predicting the Soviet and Yugoslav collapses, apparently had begun leaning toward a view that ethnic nationalism could split China with the right spark. `

    https://rense.com/political/uofhprof.htm

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  92. denk says:

    How long will the countries targeted by American/Islamist limited warfare continue to tolerate this bold assault? China, in particular, is presently bound by the economic chains that have been forged with the United States. How much longer will it continue to abide provocations in Xinjiang and other Chinese interests from Central Asia, to Pakistan, to Africa? It would be extremely unprofitable right now for China to haul the United States before the UN Security Council or to take military actions in retaliation for this low-intensity war that has been waged upon them. But that will not always be true. When the American house of cards finishes collapsing all bets will be off.

    https://countercurrents.org/chamberlin190809.htm

  93. @Lo

    Interesting observation about perception of different cultures and nations. I used to think that all orientals were just same same and that there was little individuality or variation in opinions, character, or personality between individuals, but then they have the same perception about whites, all same same to them. We’re of course both wrong, there are individual difference everywhere if you care to look. But sure a Chinese may think that talk any topic to an American and he’d be going on about “human rights, human rights”, but not in America with its largest prison population and whatever, but always somewhere else. I would have though that if you cared about human rights you’d roll up your sleeves and get to work on it in your local community and nation. As an oriental and an American you must have noticed this.

  94. denk says:

    One of the most visible manifestations of American policy in Central Asia was the creation of the Republic of East Turkestan on Capitol Hill in Washington DC in September 2004, under the aegis of ex-Deputy Director, CIA, Graham Fuller, who authored the Xinjiang Project for Rand Corporation in 1998, foreseeing that the Xinjiang Uighur autonomous region of China would break away, presumably under the leadership of the ETIM (East Turkestan Islamic Movement).

    Its president Enver Yusuf Turani, who is an American citizen, has become the new Prime Minister of this virtual state and is conducting sporadic guerilla actions and terrorist attacks in Xinjiang and other parts of China. In the weeks leading up to the Beijing Olympics of August 2008, ETIM announced a series of attacks on high-profile Chinese targets and as it turns out, a US supplied and manned arms and munitions depot was located in Kyrgyzstan, not far from the border with Chinese Xinjiang, by Kyrgyz security forces on tips reportedly provided by the Chinese authorities. During his visit to Seoul and Beijing , President Bush used the code words of religious and political freedom in China to show his support for the various insurrections and troubles instigated by Washington to challenge the PRC.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20100122122539/http://comecarpentier.com/afghan-variable.htm

  95. Seraphim says:
    @Talha

    They were going to conquer it from the Christians for the Jews who convinced the marauding bands that they are ‘cousins in Abraham’, but then they tricked the Jews and claimed it for themselves. Muslims are usurpers of the land on all accounts. Like it or not, Jews’ claim on the land overrides that of the Muslims.

    • Replies: @Talha
  96. Yee says:

    MikeatMikedotMike,

    “I suppose the late summer aroma of rotting vegetation and fish might not be as bad as stale urine,”

    May I suggest you select another mayor for your city? Even mayors in China wouldn’t be allowed do such a poor job at garbage collecting management… I thought you get to a pick one?

    As for the birth tourism, I think you should love them, they’re future patriotic Americans.

    By the way, criminals violating food laws get death sentence in China, so we’ll be fine when we shoot them all. Thanks for your concerns.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  97. Yee says:

    Lo,

    “The exact reason why I said “adult opinion” for Jason’s comments in the first place.”

    I don’t consider getting trained by Western Media as “adult opinion”.

  98. Half-Jap says:
    @Lo

    Yes, that’s quite likely.
    We mainlanders and esp. the central gov. ought to treat the Okinawans better in relation to the US bases, or the sentiment to secede will continue to grow.

  99. denk says:
    @Lo

    OKinawa independence

    hey kiddo,

    LOL

    YOu think Tokyo would grant independence to Okinawa ?

    more to the point….
    YOu think the mafiaso in Washington would allow the eunuchs in Tokyo to grant independence to Okinawa ?


    Dont make my toes laugh !

    • Replies: @Biff
  100. Biff says:
    @denk

    YOu think the mafiaso in Washington would allow the eunuchs in Tokyo to grant independence to Okinawa ?

    Hardy har har!

    • Replies: @denk
  101. Yee says:

    denk,

    “CIA in-house analysts, stung by lapses in predicting the Soviet and Yugoslav collapses, apparently had begun leaning toward a view that ethnic nationalism could split China with the right spark.”

    They’d be wrong, again… LOL
    Those CIA seem to be just evil, not smart.

    Countries do not break up when on the rise. Because economy is the foundation of a country.

    When economy is improving, people don’t want to risk their life in revolution, including the religious fanatics. Mao’s generation of Uyghurs and Tibetans love Mao because his land reform made their lives much better than before. That should be proof enough.

    Hey, CIA, a few “leaders” in Washington making noise isn’t going to break up China, because Beijing is stealing away your cannon fodders. No cannon fodders no revolution… Your budget is going to be wasted.

    Come to think of it, they can’t be this stupid. Perhaps they just don’t care. Let’s get some money out of this: “it’s doable, more budget, please.”

    • Replies: @denk
  102. @Jason Liu

    Nobody cares when China comes out with its annual white paper on “Human Rights in the USA”?

    In real life, China is far, far ahead of the US. Of the 30 rights enumerated in the UN Declaration, China leads the US 26-2-2.

    Read about it in Human Rights in China and America: http://www.unz.com/article/human-rights-in-china-and-america/

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  103. @J. Zete

    Most of the first wave of terrorist Uyghurs were radicalized when they went on the hajj to Mecca, were recruited by US/Saudi agents and came home telling everyone that they’d discovered the ‘real Islam.’

  104. @Half-Jap

    Are you suggesting that Chinese cannot express their opinions freely and honestly?

    Can you provide us with an example of a case that would, pari passu, be OK in America?

  105. @onebornfree

    Do you understand the difference between unsupported allegations, admissible evidence, and proof?

    Every eye-witness whose identity and access we can validate–including a dozens inspectors from Muslim countries–has said that Xinjiang’s Uyghurs are well treated (much better, it seems to me, than we treat our blacks).

    And, since we spend millions training terrorists in Xinjiang, it is likely that we spend millions more on hiring professional liars? Certain, in fact.

    So why do you give any credence whatever to the allegations?

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  106. @Agent76

    How secret can they be if they’re on Youtube? What would you do with thousands of US-trained terrorists? Put them up at the Ritz?

  107. @ExistentialRealism

    “The Chinese leadership is a bunch of stiff engineers. Their reactions are always calculated without taking into account the human side of things.”

    That would explain this:

  108. @J. Zete

    Those are allegations, completely unsupported, about WTO regulations.

    In the actual, existing WTO, there are currently 153 complaints against the US, 85 against the EU, and 43 WTO against China–the world’s largest trading nation.
    https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/di … ntry_e.htm

    The rules of the World Trade Organization, to which 164 countries are bound, were written by US and European corporations and its most significant achievement was to increase US-style patent protection throughout the world, leading to the deaths of millions of poor people who could not get access to essential medicines. The WTO’s rules on agriculture also greatly disadvantage developing countries and seek to prohibit governments from subsidizing domestic production for domestic consumption to feed people who are badly malnourished, e.g., in India. WTO rules also make it much more difficult for developing countries to employ the industrial policies that high-income countries like the US used to get where they are today.

    The West made China swallow some bitter pills before admitting her to join WTO, like accepting tariffs on industrial goods to an average rate of 8.9 % as compared to eg. India’s 32.4% or Indonesia’s 36.9%. China had to liberalize financial, telecommunications, distribution and legal services until they were even more liberal than Japan ( do you see Japan being bashed in the world’s media? China had to slash agriculture quotas and subsidies and lost 11.3 million jobs as a result. SOE subsidies were subject to countervailing duty actions from trade partners, too.

    Other WTO members could impose quotas and tariffs on Chinese goods upon a minimal showing of injury but China’s ability to retaliate was restricted–for at least 12 years! The ‘non market economy’ clause effectively allows the US, Japan or EU to severely limit anything they call dumping. In 2018, they reneged on their agreement to rescind China’s ‘non-market economy’ label 15 years after China joined.

    • Replies: @Alden
  109. @Talha

    A satellite image of America’s prisons would reveal four times more incarceration facilities than in China and, though the image would not reveal it, a quick search will reveal that, of the 2,000,000 souls entombed in those hell holes, 1,880,000 did not receive a trial.

    Oh, look! Over there! Uyghurs!!

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Half-Jap
  110. @Lo

    Chinese state media beats American state media every time.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  111. Pandour says: • Website

    Two days ago I watched an RTL documentary on refugeees in Greece which encapsules the Moslem mentality to a tee.A Syrian woman who obtained refugee status talking to her father on the phone who says-Remember,you are now in the land of the infidels.Ive had plenty of experience with Muslims-they smile in your face but the bottom line is that if they were in a position to do so,they would either convert you to Islam by force ,enslave you
    or kill you.

  112. @denk

    Grahame sounds like a charming fellow, precisely the kind of sociopath who does well in DC.

    • Replies: @denk
  113. @Yee

    “May I suggest you select another mayor for your city? Even mayors in China wouldn’t be allowed do such a poor job at garbage collecting management… I thought you get to a pick one? ”

    Chicago now has a lesbian negro female as mayor. China can only dream of being THIS powerfully diverse.

    And who said anything about garbage? That stench comes from the back yards and eateries of Chinatown, not the garbage cans.

    “By the way, criminals violating food laws get death sentence in China, so we’ll be fine when we shoot them all. Thanks for your concerns.”

    Careful pal, with straight talk like that you’re likely to give our Godfaring Roberts a conniption fit.

  114. Talha says:
    @Seraphim

    Ok, so you back the Zionist claims. Not surprising.

  115. Seraphim says:

    You think that the Zionists have no rights over the land? Why?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Commentator Mike
  116. Talha says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Who said the US doesn’t have issues with its legal system? I can also point out to prison abuse in Egypt and Saudi – doesn’t change anything happening in China.

    Look, just be open about it and don’t hide stuff if you believe what you are doing is correct.

    I personally would like to see an independent international commission that would review all these prisons for compliance with baseline standards, including China, US, Saudi and anyone else.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @Alden
  117. Talha says:
    @Seraphim

    Jews have always been able to live there and own land. And they should still be able to do so once we regain sovereignty.

  118. Mike P says:

    It is the U.S. that set the precedent of radicalising and arming Muslim rebels against a rival power; and both the U.S. and Israel have been using “Islamist” terror to “good” effect all over the world in the years since. It is perfectly appropriate for China to protect themselves from it, and to do so in a decisive fashion that discourages the usual tricksters from trying. I don’t suppose that the Chinese government indeed put all the Uighurs into labour camps; but even if they did, how would this be worse than the U.S. “proactively” putting all ethnic Japanese into camps in WW2?

    If the U.S. truly cares about the religious freedom of the Uighurs, they should start behaving responsibly and abstain from exploiting such local conflicts for their own ends. Until that happens, any and all of their complaints can be dismissed as crocodile tears.

  119. Seraphim says:
    @Talha

    You do realize that this will never happen.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Commentator Mike
  120. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I appreciate your honesty in this, Talha, as in everything.

    The land is yours by right of conquest – and many of those who participated in the conquest were foreign to the immediate region – and by right of Godsl’s word, who said what Muslims conquer is forever Muslim lands.

    This is refreshingly free of the hypocrisy and cant you see so often among white or European “defenders” of Palestinians, who claim they are motivated entirely by the “rights” of the Palestinians lol.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Seraphim
  121. Talha says:
    @Seraphim

    That attitude is why you guys lost the land every single time.

  122. @Talha

    Indeed there are such:

    https://icpa.org

    https://www.unodc.org/congress/en/previous/previous-ippc.html

    But if you think they do any good like any other of those UN or International bodies … you decide.

  123. Yee says:

    MikeatMikedotMike,

    “That stench comes from the back yards and eateries of Chinatown, not the garbage cans.”

    Well, they must have learned some really bad habits in America… I sure don’t find eateries in my city have bad smells. What have you been teaching them?

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  124. @Talha

    Hey Talha, you wrote:

    once we regain sovereignty

    I didn’t know you were a Palestinian. I know we’re all Palestinians now because they want the whole world to be Zion, but not to the extent to claim their Palestinian lands. I know you’re writing from a different, Islamic perspective, but if Palestinians ever regain their land, country, nation, and state I doubt they’d want other Muslims, especially Pakistanis, to pour in there. And not all Palestinians are Muslims anyway, some are Christians.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Talha
  125. @Seraphim

    Do you think that Jews have a right to set up state in large parts of SW Russia, E Ukraine, W Kazakhstan, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan? And even more so than in Palestine.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  126. AaronB says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Talha has the same claim to Palestine – and on exactly the same basis – as any Palestinian.

    According to Islam, Palestine belongs to the Umma, and all of the Umma participated in conquering it in the first place.

    Palestine belongs as much to a Pakistani Muslim like Talha as it does a Uyghur Turk.

    These are not secular claims, and cannot be framed in the language of modern secular “human rights”.

    The modern human rights argument is much weaker, and convinces no one – not even the Europeans who cynically pretend to find in Palestine the most urgent humanitarian crisis of our day lol.

    Talha’s religious conception of land rights can and has been a powerful motivating force for Muslims to try and retake the land – the rather “thin gruel” of secular humanitarianism, with its pretend concern and inability to craft a compelling moral narrative, motivates no one.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  127. @Seraphim

    And why? Can’t you see that unless Palestinians get their land back there will never be lasting peace in the Middle East, the most crucial geopolitical region of the world, and the project for the New World Order to enslave humanity will just carry on. It’s really simple: Israel off the map or a good likelihood of global nuclear Armageddon as a result of all the conflicts it generates that could eventually draw in the major superpowers. And with no stability in the region and all the trouble Israel and its minions cause will surely jeopardise prospects for the New Silk Road and Eurasian Prosperity Zone. Now it is for the Jews to see how they’ll survive given these prospects, the pressure should really be on them, and it’s of their own creation.

  128. AaronB says:

    “All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord’s”.

    In my view, the land belongs not to Jews, nor the mixed group of Muslims that settled in it after the conquest, or the Muslim Umma – but to God.

    Who can honestly claim any piece of land belongs to him? Who can point to an empty field near his home and say, this is mine. And who can point to a piece of unsettled wilderness far from his house, and say this is mine.

    There are no secular arguments whatsoever to support land ownership – secular theorists have come with convenient frameworks with which to adjudicate land issues, on the basis of reasonable compromise and avoidance of bloodshed.

    But it is impossible to establish a moral right to land ownership. Philosophers have tried, and failed.

    Land ownership can only be a theological idea.

    • Replies: @Talha
  129. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I’m not Palestinian, just part of the Ummah. One of the reasons why my family has contributed multiple times to help our brothers in Palestine.

    I doubt they’d want other Muslims, especially Pakistanis, to pour in there.

    Agreed. That’s not my intent and I doubt millions of Pakistanis want to move into Palestine anyway – they would however like to be able to visit without having to go through Israeli security restrictions. I wouldn’t even want millions of Punjabis to flood into Balochistan – and that’s in the same country!

    And not all Palestinians are Muslims anyway, some are Christians.

    Yup and those Christians have every right to be there and stick around.

    Peace.

  130. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Let’s begin by declaring that rights are a construct and application varies by such jurisdictions as recognized by other significant states. These are not inherent or universal, although the US framers were, I dare say, uniquely wonderful in declaring that such were inherent in an official document. China does not recognize any rights as inherent, but rather granted, and subject to being in their good grace. The federal USG was based upon limiting gov’t, while all others were on gov’t ceding their authority to the people. The USG const. has clearly failed, of course.

    The US citizens lost much of their rights over the years, and gov’t is tyrannical, but this is not a valid argument in stating that China is a state that respects certain rights, as inherently all those rights are contingent on good behavior. While I appreciate the PRC’s situation, and its peoples’, their statements cannot possibly be considered as disinterested.

    Dr Godfree, I always appreciate your presentation of views and information I would otherwise not be exposed to, but one must always consider the interests at stake, the circumstance of which the survey respondents are in, and so on, as one ought to consider when assessing data and statistics, as well as whether what is proffered as evidence would withstand certain standards of evidence.

  131. @Yee

    “Well, they must have learned some really bad habits in America… I sure don’t find eateries in my city have bad smells. ”

    Yeah, bad habits like English, bathing, and dental care. But I digress – perhaps you’re so used to those foul smells you don’t notice them anymore!

  132. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    You really should consider the interests at stake by the ones asking and answering.
    Similar to asking a NorK in my grandmother’s birthplace, heijyo, or pyonyang today, about how they feel about anything relative to their circumstance, their state, etc. What you are citing cannot be free of doubt as long as the state is empowered to deprive one of liberty at its convenience.
    Additionally, most have already given up or doesn’t care. Those I’ve interacted with know the consequence of making waves in the wrong way.

    How can your cited surveys be valid? Wrong=think is known to have consequences.

  133. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    See, this is what many of us consider as sophistry.
    We stipulate that the US is a massive prison state and has great many problems with its legal system. (See Paul Craig Roberts, “Tyrrany of Good Intentions: How Prosecutors and Law Enforcement Are Trampling the Constitution in the Name of Justice.” Random House 2008.)

    Just because one is unjust, does not make the other just, yet this is your implication. This is mere trolling. If such was your intent, then successful troll is successful.

    One must argue not that the other is bad or evil, but how one is just relative to the other. The referenced numbers are at best unhelpful, as each state has their own reason, agenda, and circumstance for doing what they do. Objectively, Cina and USSA are evil twins.

    Damn I wish Sun Yat Sen was better supported (by us, ofc.).

    • Replies: @denk
  134. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Good points. And then there is the component of challenging their credibility. That’s when they all fall. I haven’t seen any disinterested and objective report on the matter. Islam is not uniform, for example. Sunni Saudi would rather see Shia Iran die, and neither really care much for the Sufi, while the Shia are more tolerant. Why wouldn’t the rest be happy to receive Chinese funding for this and that, or promises of support, in exchange of mere words supporting their patron’s position?
    See, such is what one must consider when statements are made. What say thee?

  135. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    were foreign to the immediate region

    Even to this day, Muslims from all over participate in battles in the area. Did you know the pilot with the most kills against the Israeli Air Force is a retired Bengladeshi pilot:
    https://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/08/21/have-jet-will-travel-the-amazing-story-of-saiful-azam/

    what Muslims conquer is forever Muslim lands

    While other lands might be negotiable, the lands specifically conquered by the Companions (ra) reserve a very special place.

    I’d like to clarify, I’m really not interested in some grand climactic battle to return sovereignty to the Muslims. I am completely against some attempt to massacre Jews or push them into the sea or something murderously inane like that. We are dealing with the fallout of stupidity and treachery in the last stages of the Ottoman Empire. WE Muslims are the first to blame for the situation we find ourselves in; we fought each other over nonsense promises by European empires and helped bring down our own defense mechanisms. After that, we were vulnerable to the designs of the British, French, etc. and a cabal of atheist, secular, ethno-nationalist, European Jews (you should read how pissed off they were that Middle Eastern Jews were not on board with their pipe dream). Of course, our Arab secular ethno-nationalists played right into their hands by pressuring their own populations of Jews to move into and boost the strength of Israel (stupid move). Anyway, this is a giant cluster—-.

    What I would like to have happen is a negotiated integration of Israel proper into a wider economic-military cooperative in the Middle East (a bit like the EU without the nonsense). One in which Jews are able to move about and settle (as prior to Israel) into semi-autonomous zones in the Middle East. Israel can be divided into subdivisions and can also be granted a lot of local authority and the city of Jerusalem can become a shared city (between the three faiths) and have its own unique status. This would obviously take time and require security guarantees as well as a downward trend in the extremism we are currently witnessing in the Muslim world – my hope is that this will all go hand in hand. As political tensions are de-escalated, this will hopefully take the wind out of the sails of the extremists – on both sides.

    Part of this is dependent on the Muslim nations; if they get their act in gear and start cooperating and making it a better place, the Israelis will actually have more incentive to consider joining.

    Part of it also depends on whether or not the Israelis will ultimately decide whether their future is tied to Europe and the West* (in which case they will always be seen as outsiders and simply a variant on the Crusader states) or whether their future lies as sons of the wider Middle East. A lot of this question hinges on the attitude of those Jews of European background who seem to have a disproportionately higher influence in policies than, say, Yemeni or Iraqi Jews.

    Peace.

    *Especially with regards to being in cahoots with zealots whose biggest interest is to actively bring about the Second Coming and help end the world so that they can personally witness the Rapture.

    [MORE]

    Would we have lost with men like this at the helm?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  136. denk says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    There’r still many dumb fucks who think
    Trump is their ‘great white hope’, who’d ‘drain the swamp’, trouble is, Trump is the swamp !

  137. gT says:
    @Sam Coulton

    “Genghis Khan isn’t depicted as black, he was depicted with light skin and blue eyes”

    Oh dear, it seems the ancient Mongols were Nordic in origin, just like the ancient Greeks and ancient Romans. So this discussion is probably going to go the same route as the origins of the ancient Greeks and Romans discussions, yet all humanity supposedly came from Africa
    originally; well according to the most widely accepted version of the origin of humans that is.

    But first this “we wuz kangs” business. Those who went out of Africa in pre-recorded history became kings, those who were left behind, were really left behind, both figuratively and literally.

    Going back to ancient Chinese history. The first dynasty was the Shang Dynasty (1766-1027 BCE), the succeeding Zhou Dynasty (1046-256 BCE) described the Shang as having “Black and oily skin.” Indeed, some artefacts from the Shang Dynasty period, like the Le Tigresse bronze vessel, shows a humanoid of Africoid origin (look carefully at the dude in the tigers grasp).

    https://www.pinterest.com.mx/pin/354799276864904840/

    Hopping forward to the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368; the Mongol period), comes the famous Kublai Khan Hunting Scene, in which 2 Mongols appear very dark, especially the fat dude to the upper left of Kublai and his fair concubine. Kublai is Genghis’s grandson, just looks light brown / yellow.

    Click on the image for a better view. And the fat dude is rich, he definitely didn’t need to spend time in the fields.Then there is the “tribute bearers”, a copy of an image from the Tang period (618-907 CE)

    Seems some from ancient Asian times were really very, very, very sun tanned.

  138. Yee says:

    MikeatMikedotMike,

    “perhaps you’re so used to those foul smells you don’t notice them anymore!”

    I don’t think so… Plenty of tourists visit my city every year, I haven’t heard people mention about bad smell…

    Say, is the mayor your sister? Why you want to excuse an obvious city management problem? If my city had dirty streets, the mayor’s hot line would be ringing non-stop.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  139. Alden says:

    What about the United Kingdom of England and Scotland where the English sovereign with no clerical training whatsoever is the head of the official established Church like the Pope is the head of the Catholics?

    It’s the only religion on earth in which the head is not a cleric of some type.

    The Wahhabi sect began in the 1700s. The leadership married into not the Hashemite rulers of Medina, Mecca, Riyadh and what’s now Saudi Arabia, but to their rivals, the ancestors of the present rulers the El Saud family.

    The Muslims of the Soviet Union suffered the same official persecution as the Christians. It affected the Muslims somewhat less because the Muslims could hole up in the mountains. The Christians were in the cities and more settled areas.

    There were many factors in the overthrow of the Soviet Union and freeing if the satellites of E Europe. Religion was a big factor. In E Europe much of the organizing and communication was done in churches.

    The Protestants smuggled in bibles and fought the communist front the World Council of Churched as best they could. Vatican diplomats and intelligence organized and funded the Lech Walesa uprising in Poland. Why shouldn’t the Muslims do the same?

  140. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    but to God.

    Interestingly, this is the case with a mosque once it is dedicated as a mosque. The land it occupies (specifically the prayer space) can never be bought or sold or exchange ownership ever again – it belongs to God in a legal sense.

    Peace.

  141. Alden says:
    @gT

    I don’t want to argue with you, but. There are pictures on black supremacist websites of the Christian catacombs in which all those portraits of 100-300 AD Roman Christians have been given black skin and frizzy hair. There’s a portrait of St Paul allegedly made in his lifetime. He looks just like Jerry Seinfeld only with black instead of brown hair. The black supremacists haven’t discovered it and blackened and frizzled it yet.

    It could be true that those 1200-1300 AD portraits have black or dark skin. I’d have to see the originals not reproductions with politically correct coloring added in.

  142. denk says:
    @Yee

    CIA/MI6 have been trying to break up China ever since they ‘lost’ [sic] China to the CCP.

    In true blue robbery crying robbery mode,
    they’ve the cheek now to accuse the Chinese of espionage, infiltration, interference blah blah.
    With zero evidence,…. par for the course.

    uncle scam is one sickening asshole.

  143. denk says:
    @Biff

    The joke is on the jp of course.
    They’r so proud of their ‘honorable white man’ status , which conferred them the same privilege as the aparthied white guys in SA over the Negroes.

    UNknown to them, this is what their murikkan buddies see them behind their back….
    jp is our ATM, the wonderful part is, it doesnt’ require a pin number’

    hehehhehe

  144. Alden says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    So, you work for the Chinese government.

  145. Alden says:
    @Talha

    Feel free to pay the taxes to support the roaming tribe of very well paid Buttinskies and their bills in the best hotels and private planes.

    I sure won’t.

    Peace

    • Replies: @Talha
  146. denk says:
    @Colin Wright

    It became pretty clear early on the aim of this piece was to whitewash China and denigrate the Uighers.

    Here’r the facts at hand…..

    *US is the global terrorists state.

    *US has been sponsoring terrorism in Tibet, Xinjiang for decades.

    It’d seem you’r the one trying to whitewash US crimes against humanities ?

    • Replies: @Lo
  147. Alden says:
    @Yee

    I live in one of America’s biggest cities, Los Angeles part of the year. I’ve never smelled urine ever, anywhere.

    There’s some homeless in my neighborhood. I believe they use the bathrooms in the library, community center, little branch city&county office building, parks, swimming pool lobby and some restaurants and stores.

    I didn’t realize that Chinese tourists stayed in and toured the very worst skid row homeless encampments in America where they can smell urine.

    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
  148. Talha says:
    @Alden

    I good independent journalist would do.

    I’m wondering what someone like John Pilger has to say on the subject. I know he has already made a documentary about how the US wants to wage war on and is pushing China. I like his stuff, but I haven’t heard him say anything; oe way or the other on the subject of detention camps.

    Peace.

  149. Alden says:
    @Talha

    As a descendant of Phoenicians who migrated from Palestine to Britain 12,000 years ago to operate tin mines, I claim the whole of the ancient territory of Phoenicia for myself.

    We were there first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Replies: @Talha
  150. @Yee

    Round and round I go with another oriental last word obsessive. I have a mere two departing words for you:


    Reply Button.

  151. gT says:
    @gT

    Whoops, my first attempt to insert images ever didn’t work out so well. Here are links to the 2 Chinese silk paintings I tried to include

    hunt

    tribute bearers

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  152. @Yee

    Fair point. Here in downtown LA one can pay $3,000 to $5,000 per month in rent for the privilege of smelling the urine stench as soon as you step outside.

    And you get full tent cities — with piles of crap, drug needles, yet mire ruins, rats, and now TYPHUS — sprawling miles east of downtown, from little Tokyo and the “Toy District” heading east across alameda street between at least third and tenth streets.

    Large swathes of the USA’s major and midsized and small cities alike are unhealthy, unhygienic, intimidating, ugly, and generally a patchwork of civilized and uncivilized. We are in no position to lecture or mock Indians or Chinese anymore.

  153. Talha says:
    @Alden

    I claim the whole of the ancient territory of Phoenicia for myself.

    No sweat – you know where it is, come and get it.

    Peace.

  154. @AaronB

    We could play the same game, declare Palestine our Christian Holy Land (which it is), Christ’s tomb and all that, and set off on a new Crusade to clear all you semites, Jews and Muslims, out. Maybe that wouldn’t be such a bad idea but I don’t see modern day Christians mobilising for something like that; after all we don’t live in the Middle Ages any more.

    I’d be the first to want to see a peaceful solution to that problem over there but I don’t see how with so much bad blood and hate. Declaring Jerusalem an open city of faith of the three religions under some international jurisdiction, and not the capital of Israel, would be a start.

    Anyway, let’s see. Maybe things will change and there may come a time when the big superpowers will work together to bring stability and prosperity to the world instead of all this constant fighting, and then they may pressure Israel into changing tact but for now that seems unlikely. I thought that was the idea of the promised Trump-Putin cooperation before the US election, to find solutions to the world’s trouble-spots but nothing came of that. So it’s just going to be more war.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  155. Anounder says:
    @gT

    We already have DNA from the Far East dating into the Paleothic. It’s similar enough to modern Far Eastern to Amerindian populations.

    You’re going to spam more links and babble about something not even prog historians who make peer reviewed books take seriously.

  156. AaronB says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Well, Christians actually having sovereignty of the Holy Land is not part of your religion. The Crusades were because Muslims were denying Christians access and molesting pilgrims (at least at first, then it mutated). Israel grants Christians full religious rights and ownership of their holy places.

    In addition, the Jews return to the land of Israel occurred at a fortuitous moment in history. If the land was heavily settled, flourishing, and under a stable and competent sovereignty, it would have been unethical to simply conquer it amid much bloodshed.

    However, the land was thinly settled, derelict, with sovereignty having been passed between different powers for generations and no strong local organized community capable of claiming sovereignty, and with much available wasteland.

    Under such unusual conditions, Jews began to peacefully buy up wasteland, as well as private land, and in 1948, when the sovereign power was once again changing hands in this unstable region, were content to have a tiny state based on this legally acquired portion. All subsequent land was acquired in wars of self defense.

    And the local community, btw, was composed of the descendents of Muslims from around the world who conquered it, and a substantial proportion are economic migrants from Egypt and Syria responding to the better economic opportunities created by the Jewish community.

    Such a local community cannot be said to have inalienable rights to the land.

    Anyways, it would indeed be nice to have peace – one way forward would be for Palestinians to be realistic and give up their dream of retaking the whole land. They should also be honest about their national character – they are Arabs, Jordainians, Egyptians, etc, and do do have rights to self determination in Israel. Just as Egyptians are not having their rights to self determination violated if America does not grant their community independent political rights.

    While I respect their courage and will, at a certain point, intransigence that continues conflict beyond any realistic chance of success simply becomes unethical, and no longer admirable.

    As for Jerusalem, it can only remain in Jewish hands – with full rights being granted to Muslims and Christians, and full ownership of their holy places.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  157. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I thought a Pakistani pilot was the one with most kills. Maybe when Bangladesh was East Pakistan?

    Yes, in all the wars against Israel contingents from many Muslim nations contributed – this too is part of Israeli folklore.

    Your description of the classic Muslim position on this is very good, and it certainly isn’t a horrible arrangement. Naturally, you want Muslim overeignty over the land. This is understandable.

    But you must realize that from my pov, that isn’t something I can acquiesce in. If it happens it happens, but it isn’t a vision I could willingly participate in. It would not be catastrophic, but no normal person willingly chooses inferior status. Unless he’s a white post-Enlightenment European 🙂

    No, Israel must remain under Jewish sovereignty, and Jerusalem must be the capital – with full rights granted to all religions, and ownership of their holy places. However, the Temple Mount should be made fully available for Jewish prayer, of course.

    Minorities in Israel also must be protected and treated well, but cannot participate in the political or national life to the full extent.

    Furthermore, while I accept that classic Muslim attitudes towards Jews living among them are to protect them and afford them a level of freedom, attitudes can change, and cruel regimes come into power.

    For this reason it is important that Jews rely only in themselves for defense., quite aside from the fact that no normal person will willingly choose inferior status.

    What I can heartily agree with you about is Israel becoming sons of the Middle East, which I think is a good development and there are signs that it is already happening.

    This would be an important and positive development, and I appreciate that you agree Muslim societies would have to become a bit more attractive to facilitate this.

    Even if Islam cannot acquiesce ultimately to the existence of a Jewish state in theory, a peaceful modus vivendi could be established for a long time, based on mutual respect and a sense of growing cultural connection.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Franklin Ryckaert
  158. Anounder says:
    @gT

    Oh dear, it seems the ancient Mongols were Nordic in origin, just like the ancient Greeks and ancient Romans.

    We already have Roman and Greek DNA. They were at their respective peaks not at all Germans. The Greeks were similar to modern Ashkenazi Jews. Romans Spaniards and South French.

    So this discussion is probably going to go the same route as the origins of the ancient Greeks and Romans discussions, yet all humanity supposedly came from Africa
    originally; well according to the most widely accepted version of the origin of humans that is.

    The inhabitants of Africa who left it have no legit racial connection with Africa’s inhabitants south of the Sahara. We know this from North Africa’s DNA from the Paleolithic to Moor Spain (Moors in Spain had just about no connection to Basketball Americans).

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  159. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Maybe when Bangladesh was East Pakistan?

    Yup. I think he holds the record for flying under the most air forces as well.

    But you must realize that from my pov, that isn’t something I can acquiesce in.

    Totally understand especially based on the reasons you outlined. It’s one of those things that both sides make a cost/benefit analysis and decide what they have to gain or lose in the situation. Is the ability to move about and settle in the greater Middle East worth compromising on full sovereignty in a small bunker-state? These are questions people will have to ask themselves.

    cruel regimes come into power.

    Well that’s definitely something we’d have to improve to even make the idea I proposed more attractive.

    the existence of a Jewish state in theory

    To be honest, we’d have no problems if it was carved out of parts of Poland, Germany, Austria, etc. – you know, the places where this trouble started in the first place. The location is ultimately the problem. Europe seemed to have had a “Jewish problem” which they unceremoniously dumped on us to deal with and screwed up our Jewish relations going back centuries.

    I’d actually not have a problem with (and actually welcome) the idea of local Jewish forces and garrisons to help pull the weight in defense of that area as part of a wider military cooperative.

    Peace.

  160. @AaronB

    All subsequent land was acquired in wars of self defense.

    I like how you phrased that, as one expects to acquire land in wars of conquest. Presumably you need an ever greater buffer zone to protect you from your ever-multiplying enemies, like perhaps from the Nile to the Euphrates would be nice.

    You forget to mention in that brief outline the terrorism used to create Israel. The Brits didn’t put up a stiff enough resistance and get blamed for handing Israel to the Jews, having already promised it in WWI.

    Jews began to peacefully buy up wasteland

    Well I suppose they could have bought wasteland anywhere, even in the Florida swamps, but I know, Palestine has that biblical charm.

    And the hate your enemies have for you they also have for the rest of us white Europeans and Americans for having supported and propped you up but still many of us do not side with you as you can gather from reading UR.

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  161. @AaronB

    As a typical Muslim Talha can accept Jewish presence in the Middle East only as dhimmis and that is the natural expression of Islam’s ruler’s complex. “Allah” is conceived as the Supreme Ruler to whose rule the whole world must be subjugated. As long as Islam retains this characteristic, no real coexistence with Islam is possible, only a (temporal) armistice. The best service Islam can render the world is to disappear all together.

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Seraphim
  162. @Commentator Mike

    When Israel was created in 1948 (indeed by much terrorism), there were only 1,4 million Arabs in Palestine. If those people would have been resettled in for example Libya (very underpopulated at that time) and “the land without a people” would have been given to “the people without a land”, that would have been a nice solution to an age old problem. The Jews have far more stronger and older historical claims to the land than the so-called “Palestinians”. Besides, about the same number of Jews from the Arab world were expelled from their homes (and resettled in Israel), as “Palestinians” from their homes. This could be considered as a people’s exchange. To complicate matters, the Palestinians have procreated from 1,4 million in 1948 to 11 million now and they all want to “return”. Accepting reality is not the strongest part of the Arab character.

    • Replies: @Lo
  163. @gT

    Inveterate ethnocentrists as the ancient Chinese were, they considered themselves not only as the sole civilized people in the world (and all other peoples as “barbarians”), but also as the sole rulers in the world. Therefore foreign envoys could only visit the Chinese court as “tribute bearers”. The dark skinned people in your picture are undoubtedly not Africans but Indians. Here is a picture of Bodhidharma,the famous Zen teacher from Sri Lanka as depicted in Chinese art :

    • Replies: @Anounder
  164. Lo says:
    @denk

    There are plenty of articles about US interference or crimes, on this site and other English sites. People comment about them online (how about Chinese web, can you publish articles claiming Taiwan is its own state or challenge other CCP claims for example?). This is a China-related topic, of course, people will comment about China. Chinese paranoia and victim psyche are really ridiculous. You are hypersensitive, grow some skin. Or just go to some playground and don’t come back until you’re an adult.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @denk
  165. Lo says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Look, all of this is being a side. If Israel can maintain its status by itself, then fine. If not, then it is also fine. Why are you coming up with nonsensical arguments about Arabs (and thus implicitly forcing to side with Jews) while you could simply say it is their problem? I don’t remember owing anything to Israel. Sick of seeing wars for the sake of Semites. Some countries defend Israel, others defend Arabs, why should anyone involve in the ethnic disputes of Semites? They are the same people following different religions. They should handle their own issues.

  166. Lo says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    And what are you? A Zionist tool Evangelical Christian? People other than Jews or Arabs have no obligation to care about their little disputes, got that? No wars for Israel. Do your Zionist propaganda elsewhere.

  167. Anounder says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    You’re talking to an Amerimutt. They’re the ones who have a fixation with Kunta Kintes.

  168. Seraphim says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Answering a question by a question is not the right way to answer the question. Especially if you compare apples with oranges.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  169. @Commentator Mike

    MEFOBILLS’ comments give insight on finance/usury/ optimal methodology for macroeconomic development / fiscal policy beyond anything this reader’s ever seen. Plus he’s accurate to #NAMEtheJEW which in necessary yet unknown to have been done by mainstream economic experts.

    His specific comment to which you have responded here is particularly potent in its multifaceted edifying value.

    Please don’t miss or devalue the worth of his input due to quipping about word choice or style.

  170. @MEFOBILLS

    The mere reading of this to comprehension should constitute credit toward a Ph.D. in Macroeconomics.

    It’s a clinic unsurpassed.

    I’ve indicated “Agree” not because I’m wise enough to have know all this before reading it but because it persuades completely as it enlightens.

    The U.S. used industrial capitalism from 1868 to 1913.

    Has America ever seen as disgusting a Jew tool, as shabby a shabbat goy, as Woodrow Wilson. His immoral lack of self control is still killing us.

  171. @MEFOBILLS

    Exactly the truth western man must recognize, embrace and defend in order to survive and thrive in the face of the semitic-led onslaught against him, his culture and his worship of the one true God disclosed to us by God Incarnate Jesus.

  172. Seraphim says:
    @AaronB

    The problem with the ‘right of conquest’ is that it necessarily implies a ‘right of re-conquest’. But in Muslims view only THEIR right of conquest is eternal and irreversible. No matter that even the ‘right of conquest’ has been proscribed in international law subsequent to WW2.

  173. Seraphim says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    You are right. Unfortunately insanity is the hardest illness to cure.

  174. Yee says:

    MikeatMikedotMike,

    “I have a mere two departing words for you:


    Reply Button.”

    There seem to be some software problems on this website, so I don’t have a Reply Button to use. But I’ll give up my Freedom of Speech on commenting the abilities of US programmers…

    Have a nice day.

  175. Yee says:

    denk,

    “CIA/MI6 have been trying to break up China ever since they ‘lost’ [sic] China to the CCP.”

    I especially hate how they use the mass of clueless people for their evil plan. I guess those people aren’t even human just a tool in their eye.

    • Replies: @denk
  176. @Seraphim

    But my question is the answer. I was saying that Russian and East European Khazarian Zionists have absolutely no right to the land of Palestine and more right to their original homelands. Now I’m not saying they should actually go ahead and set up their homeland there but makes you wonder about the trouble in the Ukraine – Jews looking for a reserve country should their Israeli project fail, perhaps? Or trouble in Georgia whose troublesome ex-president moved to become a troublesome politician in Ukraine. Now who could be behind all these troubles and with what purpose? And it was mostly they who were being shipped to Palestine by Hitler under the Zio-Nazi Haavara agreement and later those Holocaust survivors who poured into Israel to take up the terrorist struggle for the creation of Israel. It still leaves those original Sefardic Jews there. I suppose they have some rights to some lands they once owned but all of Israel?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  177. @Lo

    There are limits to our freedom of expression too and no wonder so many have to use pseudonym handles. And even Israel Shamir has to be guarded in his statements although he posts under a real identity but has more names than that Tommy Robinson aka Lennon aka whatever. It’s just that in China different topics are sensitive and off limits, but I suppose you could go and deny the Holocaust there and expose Jewish infiltration of the West. Different strokes for different folks.

  178. denk says:
    @Lo

    Jeeze,

    kiddo,
    This is about UIghurs in China you bet,

    Still,
    People are talking about Palestine,

    lol and jap are talking about OKinawa and TW,

    yet Im the one who’s OT , when talking about murikkan sponsored terrorism in Xinjiang ?

    Such exquisite exceptionalism, !
    Lol has gotta be murikkan ,
    elementary Watson.

    Lol

    There are plenty of articles about US interference or crimes, on this site and other English sites.

    Your absence there is very revealing,
    BUt trust Lol to pop up whenever there’s a chance to diss China,,,…..
    Hmmm, a typical murikkan hypocrite and sinophobe !

    Back to your fav topics again…

    Lol

    The Okinawans are fine people.

    YOu bet.

    But they’r being defiled daily by those social misfits you dump on their ancestral land.

    The Rev. Taira says the islanders have had enough.
    The soldiers get drunk and crash their cars. There are four accidents a day; two rapes a month. Almost every person on Okinawa has a family member who has been assaulted. Then the soldiers go off to kill poor people in Iraq and Afghanistan. It makes my blood boil.

    https://apjjf.org/-David-McNeill/1768/article.html

    If you really care, do something about it instead of poking your nose where you dont belong.

    The Chinese have a saying….
    Charity starts at home,

    You are sorely in need of some good manner kiddo

  179. Yee says:

    Lo,

    “how about Chinese web, can you publish articles claiming Taiwan is its own state or challenge other CCP claims for example?”

    You could, I guess, but no Chinese is so history ignorant to do that. Because all the CCP claims are also the predecessor KMT claims, and was ruled by the Qing monarchy prior to the republics.

    I don’t know anything about International Laws, but I have checked and was assured that all CCP’s claims are legit under International Laws.

    But of course, for the Western Media trained – CCP bad guy, Chinese people ridiculous. What’s even better, is that very few people ever practice the “critical thinking” they’re so proud of and ask if it really so. Now — that’s what I call top- notch propaganda unmatched by anyone in the world.

    PS. Paul Craig Roberts has just up a post about the “the Free Press”. Seems it not only the Chinese are paranoid and ridiculous.

  180. Seraphim says:
    @Commentator Mike

    The question was about the rights of the Jews over Palestine versus the rights of the ‘ummah’ over the same place. The waffling over Jews/’Khazarians’/Zionists only confuses the problem.
    The Khazars who were converted to Judaism (by ‘echte’ Jews) disappeared as Khazars and became Jews. Adopted children have the same rights as their adoptive parents.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  181. @Seraphim

    Seraphim,

    After conversions Khazars became Jews in faith but still remained Khazars by ethnicity and remainsso even after Russians destroyed there empire. And apparently rightly so, as I read that they were a nasty bunch, looting and pillaging all around.

    As far as I know Islam wants the whole world. And apparently the Jews too. And the Yanks. And the bankers own it. So sick of them all.

  182. This just in:

    Another story on a so-called victim of the vocational training centers in Northwest China’s Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region made up by a Canadian media outlet was verified as “fake” on Wednesday.

    The Globe and Mail reported on June 25 that Tohti had been detained and taken to an indoctrination camp in Xinjiang in November 2018.

    “It has been verified that Nurmuhemmet Tohti, as reported by The Globe and Mail, had never been in Xinjiang’s vocational education and training center and had never been arrested,” the Chinese Embassy in Canada said in a statement on its website on Wednesday.

    The Chinese Embassy in Canada said that “by fabricating stories and adopting a double standard, some international anti-China forces wantonly hype and distort the Xinjiang related issue with sinister intentions.”

    The Globe and Mail’s report on Tohti is the latest report from Western media on the “victims” of the training centers in Xinjiang, which were later verified as “fake” by the Chinese side.

    At a regular news conference on June 18, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Lu Kang said that the ministry has made efforts to obtain more information and offered responsible feedback to journalists who asked about individual cases related to Xinjiang, but “those same journalists failed to give it open and accurate coverage.

    Some Western media do not practice professional ethics, which made fake news on Xinjiang policies, and it seems they will not stop fabricating similar stories on the 10th anniversary of the riots in Urumqi on July 5, 2009, experts said. The riots left 197 people dead and more than 1,700 injured. Terrorists from the “East Turkistan” forces engineered the riots, according to a white paper on Xinjiang released by the State Council Information Office in March.

    Although China has reiterated on many occasions that the purpose of its policies in Xinjiang is to fight terrorism and extremism, but some Western media insist on telling unreliable stories of so-called victims of the training center, Li Wei, a counter-terrorism expert at the China Institute of Contemporary International Relations in Beijing, told the Global Times.

    Li said that due to their long-term bias and political stance, some Western media would rather spread rumors than make fair points of view on Xinjiang.

    Erkin Öncan, a Turkish journalist who focuses on China’s Xinjiang reports, told the Global Times on Wednesday that “Western media is ideologically motivated and ‘forgets’ journalism ethics when it comes to China.”

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Half-Jap
  183. Talha says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Who reported this? I see this here:
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1155877.shtml

    It’s from some publication in China citing government officials.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  184. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    well la’di’da.
    well done on refuting all the other points everybody brought up for your consideration, more or less reasonably. this is exactly the kind of scholarship we’re expecting of you.

    • Replies: @Talha
  185. Half-Jap says:

    We Japs followed so many damn rules, stuck with suicidal ethics. Nobody will defend us for any allegations which were mostly based upon Nationalist propaganda, modeled after the British ones against Germany… Alas.
    I bet Dr. Roberts cannot stand against a hardcore scholar who is dispassionate and disinterested about the politics of the day but rather cares about what really happened. This is how even I can turn the interesting to doubt nanjing while validating other real horrors.

    • Replies: @Lo
  186. Lo says:

    Well, from the comments that I have seen in China-related articles, I conclude Trump is being too nice, and so was I, giving Chinese too much credit in their ability to think like adults. The US should tighten the noose and put tariffs on the remaining $300 billion of goods. Chinese are not negotiable and only understand force, not only that but they think we believe their bs that wouldn’t fool a kid. Either they will accept to follow up with their promises, and won’t expect to be treated as an exception or they will return back to their isolated days. SEA is more than eager to accept the investment and industries China will lose.

  187. Lo says:
    @Half-Jap

    I like Japanese but Asians don’t seem to know what moderation is. This is why they should be kept away from any dangerous ideas it turns out. They take them too seriously. Look at the Chinese, they appear to have already forgotten how it was before they received investment and know-how from the rest of the world. Thanks to their ultra-nationalist propaganda, already they are expecting the whole world to bow down to them, and they are not even on S. Korea level as far as GDPPPP goes. All indications I see points that Chinese imperialism would be far worse than the US imperialism. At least Americans don’t think that they are smarter than everyone else and that they are their own original, pure race people. Not to mention that the Chinese also believe money rules everything and nothing else matters.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Half-Jap
  188. denk says:
    @Yee

    ‘The CIA has developed great expertise in undermining the governments of other countries. They use a great variety of methods, including propaganda, disinformation, fabricated incidents,

    They use agent provocateurs in demonstrations to create incidents and sometimes deaths that reflect unfavorably on the government’

    http://web.archive.org/web/20040306073835/http://japan.indymedia.org/newswire/display/1181/index.php

    Same M.O. in TAM, Tibet, Xinjiang….

    ‘I especially hate how they use the mass of clueless people for their evil plan. I guess those people aren’t even human just a tool in their eye.’

    and now in HK,
    notice how the agent provocateurs amongst the protestors seem bent on provoking a bloodbath ?

    sobs !
    [I mean CIA./MI6 of course]

  189. Talha says:
    @Half-Jap

    Found the Turkish journalist cited in the article. Really? The dude is one of those Communist Party lovers you find in Turkey – look at that fat banner of Lenin across his profile:
    https://twitter.com/erknoncn?lang=en

    I want you to think about this tweet he did on his English profile:

    Note what he says. The implication is to take kids and have them put into these re-education camps.

    See, the problem is not that those kids are holding guns – it’s that they are not holding guns at camps run by the Communist party:

    Also, note that veiling girls is considered radicalization and grounds to suggest the state send them to camps for re-education.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  190. denk says:
    @Lo

    The kiddo lol is throwing a massive tantrum and getting delirious….

    All indications I see points that Chinese imperialism would be far worse than the US imperialism. At least Americans don’t think that they are smarter than everyone else and that they are their own original, pure race people.

    hey sweetheart,
    YOu must be smoking some serious stuff…

    Tell that to the jp

    https://dissidentvoice.org/2013/02/japans-abe-kowtows-to-u-s-imperial-elite/

    The koreans…
    https://www.sott.net/article/399287-Trump-on-South-Korea-They-do-nothing-without-our-approval

    Ever heard of the KIssinger/NIxon doctrine….
    ‘ I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.”

    So they arranged for a coup to install their man PInoche, the rest is history…except from what I gather so far, you dont seem to know jack shit about anything sonny.

    Recently they tried to appoint their man in Venezuela thru another violent coup., its the Kissinger doctine in its 1001 irteration,.

    tip of an iceberg.

    Im tired of giving free education to dickheads who dont show appreciation, so I suggest you stick to Harry and Potter, this is an adult site, parental guidance required.

    hehehhehe

    • Replies: @Lo
  191. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Keep in mind – I am not about to propose I believe the US/UK are being honest in this whole thing. If they are fomenting rebellion among the Uighurs, they should stop and not be hypocritical in helping to create a problem and then also complaining when a communist government then responds with a heavy hand (I mean, what the hell else do they expect).

    Uighurs should know better than to cozy up to the US for this kind of thing – look at the Kurds – since they will be dropped the minute they are no longer useful to US foreign policy goals.

    Good news is Erdogan will visit China in a few days:

    I’d like to see what his delegation has to say on the subject.

    • Replies: @Lo
  192. Lo says:
    @denk

    Lol, no one is throwing tantrums. The thing is posts of Wumaos are so repetitive and boring that I don’t even read them. Once you read one of them, it counts as you read all of them. Yeah yeah, without even reading I know stuff you will write, US imperialists (that you gladly accept money from) interfering in other countries, China being wonderful (China can do no wrong after all), China is a victim, Americans being fat and stupid, Chinese built HSR, Uighurs are terrorist, Dalai Lama is a traitor and so on. You really need not repeat yourself. We understand that according to you everything China does is right, and everything everyone else does is wrong. It appears your collective mental age is no more than 7, which makes you a child. I have all the good intentions, but you cannot be helped. Which is tragic, but patience has its own limits. Look at yourself, your country is being robbed by CCP elites, and here you are defending the same elites who steal from all of you.

    At this point, I firmly believe that the only right way for the US at this point is to isolate China all the way back to the 60s level and let CCP collapse. Unless they learn to respect the freedoms and rights of their minorities and start being a normal country, which we all know won’t happen since they are all so brainwashed to believe in their victim narratives.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @denk
  193. Talha says:
    @Lo

    Wumao

    Wow – I had no clue what that term was. I looked it up and watched a few videos on the institution.

    Crazy.

    Peace.

  194. @gT

    Ancient DNA has proven that the Borjigin Mongol clan which Genghis Khan was a descendanf of had European roots.

    http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/765155.html

    We do not have any DNA from Republican-era Rome or the Greek classical period.

    • Replies: @Anounder
  195. Lo says:
    @Talha

    Good news is Erdogan will visit China in a few days:

    I’d like to see what his delegation has to say on the subject.

    He will not say anything. Turkish foreign policy is no less mentally ill than the US foreign policy. Rather than focusing on culturally close people, Turkey focuses and involves the issues of Arabs. Just like the US involvement, Turkish involvement in Semitic matters brings nothing to their country other than terrorist attacks and millions of refugees. Erdogan is not capable enough to understand the problems he caused for Turkey.

    • Replies: @Talha
  196. Talha says:
    @Lo

    I guess we’ll find out in a few days.

    I don’t know if it’s him simply involving the country in Semetic matters rather than his decidedly neo-Ottoman policies; all that area is, after all, old Ottoman stomping grounds.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lo
  197. Lo says:
    @Talha

    There is a reason why they are “old” Ottoman stomping grounds. He and his fellows, on the other hand, are not people capable of being Ottomans. His kind would not even be allowed in Istanbul without sponsorship, but does he know that? Of course not. He doesn’t even seem to be aware of the fact that he owes his position to the republic Ataturk established, not to Ottomans. Ignorant of any science and history other than the one they imagine, they think they can just involve in internal matters of Arabs and would be welcomed for that. They should get a clue, you’d think 5 million refugees would be enough of a clue, but I guess they are bigger idiots than they appear.

    • Replies: @Talha
  198. Talha says:
    @Lo

    If that’s a long way of saying that politicians and delusions are camping buddies then, yeah – I agree.

    Peace.

  199. denk says:
    @Lo

    China can do no wrong

    You think so ?
    Dont be daft,
    nobody is perfect.

    USA the aggressor, China the victim

    Now you’r talking

    disrepect of minorities

    back to your nonsense again…
    I once suggested China deserved a NObel peace prize for its exemplary policies on minorities….

    AA in education, economy subsidization, exemption from one child rule….thelot.

    Those brainwashed sobs at Guardian nearly blew their top, like you, lol.

    accepting money

    another B.S.
    YOu mean murikkan investments surely,

    UIGHURS ARE terrorist

    , dont tar the whole tribe.

    Besides, its not up to you to decide,
    The murikkans call those head chopping militants ‘freedom fighters’,
    whereas Iraqis and others who killed murikkan invaders are ‘terrorists’.

    Oh, also the moslems in Kashmir who fight murikkan buddy mOdi are also ‘terrorist’ of course.
    See, thats exceptionalism for you,

    murikkan fat and stupid

    again, dont tar the whole tribe,

    everything China does is right, and everything everyone else does is wrong.

    told you nobody is perfect , silly kid,

    mental age < 7

    jason liu

    1. They think the Uighur threat is huge and overreacted, which is retarded.
    2. They think the world won’t find out/care, which is retarded.
    3. They think it China’s image doesn’t matter because we’re big and have money, which is retarded.
    4. They think China’s version of ‘truth’ will win out against negative perceptions, which is super retarded.

    Not all old men are tone deaf and socially inept autists. Pretty much everyone in the CCP is, though.

    Where’s jason ?
    If not for those ‘retards’ in CCP,
    China would’ve become Libya/Syria/Iraq x 10000 in no time.

    BUt here’s lol the fucktard2

    Refreshingly adult opinions from a Chinese. Usually, by this point, an average Chinese would start screaming about Opium Wars and foreign invaders instead of sensibly talking about the subject topic.

    what could be the mental age of these two fucktards, any suggestion ?

    I dont read your posts

    so far you seem to be an ardent fan

    wumao

    Ad hominem , the last resort, never fail

    I dont think you’r CIA tho, those creeps are more sophiscated /cunning.

    You’r just plain dumb and ….brainwashed.

    I come here with good intentions

    lol
    You and those murikkan dumbfucks come here with your mind already set in stone, China guilty until proven innocent,
    evidence be damned.

    Thats why the only ‘adult’ response approved by you comes from that fucktard jason liu.

    roflamo

    • Replies: @Lo
  200. denk says:
    @Half-Jap

    Objectively, Cina and USSA are evil twins.

    Im giving you the benefit of doubt that its a typo, in that case, explain why
    China = USSA.

    If thats intentional,
    FUCK YOU. !

    for the uninitiated,
    cina is a very insulting jap term .

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  201. Half-Jap says:
    @Lo

    The cultural revolution destroyed their culture. My wife’s parents had been through reeducation and humiliation. Seems money and status is the measure of value. The Chinese do have some kind of inferiority complex, perhaps as a reaction to that ‘revolution’ and also perhaps from all those single children all grown up, and articles and commentaries abound comparing themselves to us and the US.
    Their aggressiveness is eerily familiar, like we’ve seen that movie already, although our aggressiveness was out of necessity (not to deny the mukden false flagging and all that followed).
    In passing, I’d mention that at least many high officials, including my grandfather, took the ‘co-prosperity sphere’ literally and seriously, and outside China and Korea, we are still liked (Except Philippines…they hate everybody lol). I don’t think anybody really likes China except for their market, actual and/or potential.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Lo
  202. Lo says:
    @denk

    I don’t think you are dishonest, I think you are a genuine idiot, so we are cool I am not angry.

    • Replies: @Biff
  203. Half-Jap says:
    @denk

    Typo, but not sorry. Should get a better name than China.
    We don’t even call ourselves Japan and -ese in our language but it stuck. Change it if you hate the near-identical term. How about simply chunguo or chunhua? I prefer the latter. Also, Chinese don’t even seem to need much of a reason to hate us as it is educated into them, the war notwithstanding. They become quite emotional when faced with cognitive dissonance-inducing evidence and arguments, but this is unrelated.

    As for the comparison, consider they both have pretenses to the people having rights. They effectively do not. They are both imperialist, the US merely being the front-runner. They both act like they own the damn place, and China’s named as such, it’s absolutely hilarious. While judge/jury is waiting for objective evidence on Uygurs, US still has those mostly shithole reservations with their pampered inhabitants mostly drinking themselves into oblivion. Etc.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
    , @denk
    , @denk
  204. Anounder says:
    @Sam Coulton

    We do have DNA from Classic Greece and Republican Rome.

    Classic Greece:

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_Supplement.pdf

    The Greek samples from Empúries date well within the Classical Era of Greece. They cluster in the Mycenaean’s area.

    Republican Rome:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16487-The-Italian-Peninsula-through-Ancient-DNA&p=545807&viewfull=1#post545807

    IRON AGE TO REPUBLICAN PERIOD (700-20BC)
    Note: Separated from previous period by 1000 year gap.
    Fewer samples, of those that exist 60% overlap with North Italy, 40% overlap with South Italy and Sicily, centroid of overall cluster in central Italy but no samples occur there, very wide spread.
    EHG appears, Levant N Appears for the first time, sporadic and inhomogeneous distribution, Iran_N increases further.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16487-The-Italian-Peninsula-through-Ancient-DNA/page10

  205. Talha says:

    For the record, the Chinese people (and even government) should be commended in their preservation of the tomb/mausoleum of the blessed Companion, Sa’ad Ibn Abi Waqqaas (ra). He was one of the ten promised Paradise and the brilliant military commander most responsible for the downfall of the Sassanids, breaking their back at the battle of Qadisiyyah.

    https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/tomb-of-sa-d-ibn-abi-waqqas

    Much respect to the Chinese for leaving that site undisturbed and accessible to Muslim pilgrims.

    Peace.

  206. Bigbeef says:

    Isn’t the ‘the three evils’ more like ‘the three stupids’ in today’s world. The only real question the Uighurs should ask themselves is, if Uighurs are independent, how are we going to survive? Go back to the traditional life and become sustenance farmers? ‘Well, Islam will save us.’ But I don’t know any thriving muslim country. All of them based on oil. ‘Well, we will become traders.’ With who, your enemy China? And what can you possibly have to trade? ‘But Islam, Islam it’s the most important thing to every Muslim, forget the rest.’ Is that a responsible thing to say to the young generation of muslims? I feel like the older generation of Muslims should forget Islam and focus on the younger generations of muslims. Even if the younger generation of muslims abandons their belief, the older generation should have the courage to accept them. Every society went through this. Christian parents, atheist sons and daughters, Communist parents, liberal kids, even Radical hippy parents and their conservative sons. All religions today smell musty, and it’s usually elderly who are afraid of change that force it on the community.

  207. Talha says:
    @Half-Jap

    I don’t think anybody really likes China except for their market, actual and/or potential.

    Well it depends. I think a lot of people have a great respect for classical Chinese civilization and its place in world history – I certainly do. But as you said, they seemed to have left that culture behind in a great bloody trail of inconvenient Chinese peasant bodies in order to progress.

    Now? Sure it’s impressive if you are impressed by a dystopian hyper-security ethno-nationalist state – probably the most successful around. Also impressive for raw economic and technological capability.

    Peace.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  208. APilgrim says:

    Certainly I support expulsion of Turks & other Muhammadans from: Europe, Constantinople, China, Asia, India, Africa & the Americas.

    To enhance modern civilization.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  209. Biff says:
    @Lo

    Man, denk hit you with two right hooks, a left jab, and an uppercut from South Alabama, and all you got is a love tap in return.

    Loser!

    • Replies: @Lo
  210. Half-Jap says:
    @Talha

    I love visiting Taiwan. Wife says it’s probably an enclave of Chinese culture, not representing all, but at least one that evaded the ‘revolution.’ It also feels like Japan, except they are more considerate.
    Why can’t we just let nations rule themselves?

  211. Lo says:
    @Biff

    Lol, not gonna work buddy. Denk is a Chinese kid who is locked out of his favorite online game because CCP banned it. Since he cannot criticize CCP without risking the lives of his extended family, he is venting off about evil foreigners here. What do you want me to do, beat a kid?

    • Replies: @denk
  212. @APilgrim

    LOL. Where would you send them all to? Australia, the only continent not on your list? And send all the Jews there too so we don’t have to bother with their troubles. And teach their newborns there that Australia is the world and that there’s nothing outside but an endless sea, so let them get on with conquering it.

    • Replies: @Talha
  213. Lo says:
    @Half-Jap

    The cultural revolution destroyed their culture. My wife’s parents had been through reeducation and humiliation. Seems money and status is the measure of value.

    That’s the key to understand China. Everyone assumes that it is 3000 years of culture that we are dealing with, while in reality the Chinese might be a nation younger than the US as their cultural heritage has been largely destroyed. Hence, they are acting like a bunch of kids. Mao indeed managed to floor the society to the point everyone became starving equals, without religion, culture or morality. As it is not possible to create a moral code and culture in a short time, money became the differentiator and virtue. This fact, and also the inferiority complex is also related to the fact that when China allowed Western investment, a lot of people who have been farmers/urban poor (bottom of society, even without a cultural revolution) became filthy rich, especially when development created a real estate bubble.

    The Chinese do have some kind of inferiority complex, perhaps as a reaction to that ‘revolution’ and also perhaps from all those single children all grown up, and articles and commentaries abound comparing themselves to us and the US.

    Previous factors, add in the ultra-nationalistic education and the fact that it creates cognitive dissonance when they realize they are poorer than the West, you have a perfect breeding ground for idiots with inferiority complex who think they can buy respect and friendship through money.

    I don’t think anybody really likes China except for their market, actual and/or potential.

    If you are not even liked by Chinese outside mainland China, you have no one the blame but yourself. Really, not blaming the Chinese as well. Average Chinese is living in a bubble created by the CCP. They have no idea what is actually going on in the world. Once they are out, they gradually realize that they’ve been lied to all their lives and often end up hating CCP for it.

  214. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I actually don’t mind that kind of attitude displayed against Muslims. What I have found is, most guys who talk tough like that on the internet are like pissy neocon cowards. Ask them; heck yeah, you want Constantinople back, why don’t you make sure that you or your son sign up to be part of the first force that lands on the beaches?

    Nope, they’d rather send someone else’s son to do the job for them because…muh excuses.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  215. Anonymous [AKA "LibertyCat71"] says: • Website

    Oy vey! Someone’s always giving @Godfree Roberts a hard time when he debunks the lies about the Uyghurs in concentration camps! I’ve been lurking but thought I would add some evidence, as well.

    Jim Jatras had this to say, in September 2018:

    “Whenever you see western governments and the legacy media wailing about the plight of “persecuted Muslims” somewhere (in a way they never do for Christians anywhere) it should be a tipoff the boys and girls over at Langley are pushing the start button on a jihad against someone for geopolitical reasons having nothing to do with human rights, religious freedom, or other ostensible bleeding heart concerns. That appears to be what we’re seeing today in the strident chorus of alarm from Congress calling for sanctions against Chinese officials.”

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/09/15/is-langley-unleashing-jihad-against-china-in-xinjiang/

    Do you really think that the White House Administration cares about Muslims, in another country, when they want to ban their entry into the United States?!

    This article is from earlier this year and it’s a conversation a few people have about the Uyghurs and the terrorism problem that they had in Xinjiang. One is an American, Nathan Rich, who’s lived in China a while, and he’s already debunked quite a few mainstream media lies on his YouTube channel.

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1142868.shtml

    He hasn’t done anything on the Uyghurs on his channel, though.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaSlyjhR4WC7QhYuaivxb6g

    CaptainCool07 has done a video on them, though:

    Corporate media has an agenda that they are hiding when it comes to China. Xinjiang is only an integral part of China’s Silk Road connections and I believe that they have oil in that region.

    Not to mention that this looks highly suspicious (someone who’s been in the news a lot talking about how Trump’s trade war, with China, isn’t going to end soon):

    🤔

  216. @Talha

    Talking about Istanbul or is it Constantinople, Churchill was a fool landing those Anzac troops at Gallipoli to get massacred. Anyway just after WWI, Greece singlehandedly got as far as within a hundred miles of Ankara on its own, with no help at all from its former allies, and if the Soviets hadn’t armed the Turks they could have very well lost that war. And then there was the revenge, expulsion and massacres of the Greeks, and Armenians (of the Armenians started long before but surely adding some more), and Greek’s war allies all just watching. Now if the allies of WWI had helped, they could have easily taken Constantinople and Ankara. Oh well, who knows, there may come another time yet. What a world, eh? Everyone always looking for an edge, but can’t blame them either, as if not, the other lot will take advantage and swat.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919–1922)

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Seraphim
    , @Lo
  217. denk says:
    @Half-Jap

    no sorry..


    No Punishment, Little Remorse…

    ‘By conventional standards, few people were more cruel than the farmer who as a Unit 731 member carved up a Chinese prisoner without anesthetic, and who also acknowledged that he had helped poison rivers and wells. Yet his main intention in agreeing to an interview seemed to be to explain that Unit 731 was not really so brutal after all.

    Asked why he had not anesthetized the prisoner before dissecting him, the farmer explained: “Vivisection should be done under normal circumstances. If we’d used anesthesia, that might have affected the body organs and blood vessels that we were examining. So we couldn’t have used anesthetic.”

    When the topic of children came up, the farmer offered another justification: “Of course there were experiments on children. But probably their fathers were spies.”

    There’s a possibility this could happen again,” the old man said, smiling genially. “Because in a war, you have to win.”

    Jp culture in a nutshell, thats why jp and USSA are such a congenial pair.
    Birds of the same feather.

    http://www.toddlertime.com/bobbystringer/unit-731.htm#noremorse

  218. denk says:
    @Half-Jap

    Chinese don’t even seem to need much of a reason to hate us as it is educated into them,

    Same mindset with murikkans,,,,….
    They hate us for our way of life.

    With a record like this, who needs propaganda ?

    Ming dynasty, jp pirates invasions

    1898
    Robbed of TW

    Eight nations alliance,

    WW2

    Once a pirate, always a pirate…

    http://space4peace.blogspot.com/2013/06/loose-ends-from-berkeley-conference.html

  219. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    This is likely true about a potential retaking of Constantinople. It could have possibly been pulled off, though the Turks put up one hell of a resistance in their core territory.

    There are many instances of history like this. One the lesser known to most people is that the Ottoman juggernaut was well on pace to swallow up half or two thirds of Europe in the early 15th century. They had recently smashed (I mean smashed; very few survived and I believe many who did were executed) a combined Crusader force at Nicopolis (at the end of the previous century) and the Ottoman field army under Sultan Bayezid was one of the largest in the world. Had the Sultan pressed forward, there was not going to be much serious resistance.

    Europe was actually saved from
    the precipice from the East. Tamerlane made a bid for the leadership of the Muslim world and threatened the Ottoman’s eastern front. They not only had to divert resources; 1) they lost the Battle of Ankara, 2) the Sultan was captured and 3) the Ottomans went into a period of a bloody civil war lasting over a decade. It seems just when things are about to go one way, they change – such is history.

    “If a wound has touched you, be sure a similar wound has touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) We give to men by turns…” (3:140)

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  220. denk says:
    @Half-Jap

    They are both imperialist, the US merely being the front-runner

    with the proud samurai ‘warriors’ meekly tagging along….

    https://sputniknews.com/asia/201906121075813882-usa-south-china-sea-drills-japan/

    YOu’r damn right about jp/USSA,
    a leopard never change its spots.

  221. denk says:
    @Half-Jap

    They both act like they own the damn place,

    Brigadier General William Looney, head of the U.S. Central Command’s Airborne Expeditionary Force, which directs operations south of the 32nd parallel in Iraq:

    “They know we own their country. We own their airspace. We dictate the way they live and talk. And that’s what’s great about America right now. It’s a good thinking, especially when there is a lot of oil out there we need.”

    They own Okinawa of course,

    Even in main land jp, USAF own a large chunk of air space, out of bound to civil flights.

    poor dear,
    Your samrai forebears must be turning in their grave !

  222. denk says:
    @Lo

    Summary of lol the kiddo,

    China is guilty until proven innocent,

    Anyone who disagree must be wumao,

    If all else fail,

    Resort to Ad hominen,

    Attack the straw man….

    Ergo,
    A gawd damn blowhard.

  223. @Talha

    Forces generally seem to work in such a way as to maintain some “balance of power”, not allowing anyone to get too big for their boots, and maybe it is good that it should be so. And there is always the unexpected. At the time US marched into Iraq and toppled Saddam, I don’t think many considered that this would only strengthen Iran’s position and that the Shiites would take over disproportionately more power, and now US wants to go and fight another war to correct what it caused, the vacuum they created by toppling Saddam and the Baath Party, so that the Shiites could fill it with Iran’s backing. And if they repeat in Iran, then who’ll benefit most filling in the new vacuum they’ll create by toppling the mullahs? And so it goes.

    • Replies: @Talha
  224. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    And there is always the unexpected. At the time US marched into Iraq and toppled Saddam, I don’t think many considered that this would only strengthen Iran’s position a

    Yup, fog of war. Strange world, remember this guy’s guarantee:

    So many “positive reverberations” I can’t count them all!!!!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  225. @Talha

    Correctamento! Chinese government publications are the most trustworthy on earth.

    By contrast, an alarmingly low number of Americans say they trust the media. Over the last two decades, research shows the public has grown increasingly skeptical of the news industry. Designed for today’s saturated media environment, this new study from The Media Insight Project, a collaboration of the American Press Institute and the Associated Press‑NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, helps establish that trust is an important differentiator for building an audience.By late 2018, says the American Press Institute, ”Just six percent of Americans say they have a lot of confidence in the media, putting the news industry about equal to Congress and well below the public’s view of other institutions.” As Carl Sagan noted sadly, ”The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.” https://www.americanpressinstitute.org/publications/reports/survey-research/trust-news/

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Erebus
    , @Half-Jap
    , @Lo
  226. Talha says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    (Sigh) So your evidence is that Chinese people are conditioned to trust their government’s publications?

    So if I like my mom’s cooking more than your mom’s cooking, does that make my mom a better cook?

    Peace.

    • LOL: AaronB
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  227. Anonymous[134] • Disclaimer says:

    BEIJING (Reuters) – China and the United Nations have reached a “broad consensus” about counter-terror work, China’s Foreign Ministry said on Sunday after a controversial visit by a senior U.N. official to the restive far western Chinese region of Xinjiang this week.

    The United States and other western countries objected to a visit by the U.N. counterterrorism chief to Xinjiang, where U.N. experts say some one million ethnic Uighurs and other Muslims are held in detention centers.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/china-says-reached-broad-consensus-with-un-after-xinjiang-visit-idUSKCN1TH00T

    It looks like the US really didn’t like the visit. That makes you wonder. Lol

    • Replies: @Talha
  228. Erebus says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Correctamento! Chinese government publications are the most trustworthy on earth…
    By contrast, an alarmingly low number of Americans say they trust the media.

    Godfree, that’s disingenuous. I’m sure you know that “trust” is only tangentially correlated to veracity.

    It’s correlation to credulity and adroit information management is surely stronger.

    I posted this on the other thread, with no response to date. If the Chinese public believes this (and for the vast majority, they have no reason not to), then credulity and the absence of alternate views are largely responsible for the “trust”.

    BTW, at the time of the recent Tienanmen Sq anniversary, China basically shut down the international internet. Even “official” VPNs didn’t work reliably.

    • Replies: @Anon
  229. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    I trust the UN way over the US’s objections. This is good news indeed.

    Thanks for the link!

    Peace.

  230. Anon[134] • Disclaimer says:
    @Erebus

    I don’t know what the China’s government is doing. It probably has one of the worst and incompetent propaganda ministry in the world. June 4th TianAnmen, just let the truth come out. Why censors it? There were a lot of witnesses for the Tiananmen incident, and most of them are on their side. It would destroy the West’s narrative of it pretty quickly if the Chinese people freely talk and read about it.

    Regarding to Bass’s clip, it is an obviously intended mis-translation. This is what the guy said in Chinese — ” over 800,000 HK citizens participated in ” pro-extradition activities”.

    He said 活动(Huódòng) = activity. He didn’t say ” over 800,000 HK citizens participated in ” pro-extradition demonstration” You can confirm with anyone who can speak mandarin, or simply use “google translate” for 活动(Huódòng).

    If you watch the whole exchange, not just this short clip, you would get a better picture. The guy was answering a reporter’s question. The guy was comparing the numbers of the pro and anti extradition bill supporters. He was giving the number of pro extradition bill supporters. He was saying the number of demonstrators was controversial. (the HK police estimate and the organizer’s estimate are very different)

    He was telling the truth. There are a lot of more supporters for the extradition bill, expressed through various activities than the anti bill demonstrators. Incidentally, there will be a pro-extradition bill demonstration today in HK.

    As you can see, how a little alteration/edit can change the original meaning and people’s perception of it.

    Kyle Bass, the guy who posted the clip, and Steve Bannon are in the same think tank. They are buddy-buddy. And you probably have heard of Guo Wengui, a Chinese billionaire fugitive. (a real estate developer who secured over a billion dollars loan from Chinese banks through forged documents) Steve Bannon is the CEO of Guo’s newly funded “free China” organization. Not sure if you have heard of Baggio Leung. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baggio_Leung. He is one of the organizers of the demonstration.

    I introduced all these names for the video below.

    The video is in both Cantonese and Mandarin.

    Fastforward to 7:40 , it is a video call between Guo and Leung. Guo is talking about all kind supports from the US to Leung. Bannon name is mentioned. Money is mentioned.

    My hat off to the US. Well play.

    By they way, Erebus. You are one of the most intelligent and erudite people here in UNZ. I enjoy reading your comments.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Erebus
  231. Anon[134] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Wanna add a couple things

    The think tank Bass and Bannon belong to is called “The Center for Security Policy “

    Chinese nouns don’t have plural.

  232. Erebus says:
    @Anon

    Thanks first for your kind thoughts. Alas, I can’t return them as I have no idea which “Anonymous” you are.

    It probably has one of the worst and incompetent propaganda ministry in the world. June 4th TianAnmen, just let the truth come out. Why censors it?

    Hear! Hear! Not long ago, I was sure the Russians were the worst, but they’ve recently taken a straight ahead approach that’s starting to work for them. The Chinese would do well to copy it. Slowly but surely, the Russians are making a difference and the best thing about it is that the truth is free while a good spin doctor isn’t.

    Both Tienanmen Sq and the BoXiLai affair were pivotal moments for the CCP, and much of what happened is not only unknown to the public, but the fact it’s unknown leads to a “We’ll never know the truth of it” attitude that unnecessarily undermines the otherwise undeniably good work the CCP is doing. Or worse, I know a few Chinese who think TS was an actual massacre.

    As you can see, how a little alteration/edit can change the original meaning and people’s perception of it.

    And even greater thanks for setting it straight. I guess Kyle Bass’ credibility is sinking lower and faster than I thought.
    If you have a Twitter account, I encourage you to set him and his audience straight.

    • Replies: @Anon
  233. @Talha

    Positive only for Israel. But whether what I wrote about Iran’s influence growing in Iraq was truly unexpected is correct, I’m not now so sure. Maybe it was expected that what happened in the meantime would happen, and events so manipulated, so that they could now go after the bigger fish – Iran. Some say Israel needs enemies to keep its people in a state of fear and permanently mobilised, and to be able to garner Western support, but whether it needs them or not it certainly has them. Maybe they didn’t expect Russia to get involved in Syria, or maybe they did, or once Russia got involved they thought how best to make use of that to further some other of their strategic geopolitical plans. I can’t really add much to this other than speculate. We just have to see how it unravels. But I wish millions would turn out for anti-war demos instead of the Pride parades.

    • Replies: @Lo
  234. Seraphim says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Actually, Constantinople was occupied by British, French and Italian troops in accordance with the Armistice of Mudros (30 October 1918) from 13 November 1918 to 4 October 1923, when it handed it back to the newly formed Republic of Turkey.
    Normally it should have been occupied by the Russians as the Sykes-Picot-Sazonov agreement of 1915 stipulated, had Russia not withdrawn from the war, signing the peace of Brest-Litovsk, by which it renounced all claims to Ottoman territories. In actual fact, the non-participation of Russia in the general peace settlements, especially in regards to the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire, contributed to the mess that is the Middle East even today.

    Let’s remind that the Treaty of Sevres (1920), besides recognizing the independence of Armenia, required the Ottoman Empire to “hand over to the Allied Powers [of] the persons whose surrender may be required by the latter as being responsible for the massacres committed during the continuance of the state of war on territory which formed part of the Ottoman Empire on August 1, 1914.” i.e the Armenian massacres in accordance with the Allies warning to the Ottomans in 1915 that: “In the view of these … crimes of Turkey against humanity and civilization … the Allied governments announce publicly … that they will hold personally responsible … all members of the Ottoman Government and those of their agents who are implicated in such massacres”. Had they been prosecuted at the time, the problem of the ‘Armenian Genocide’ would have been solved.

    • Replies: @Lo
  235. @Talha

    We’ve been conditioned to distrust our government’s publications, statements and promises because our government has lied to us to often and failed to keep its promises.

    Given that most Western governments do the same, it’s natural that you would think that all governments lie and break their promises.

    But some don’t. Singapore’s government doesn’t, nor does Switzerland’s (neither is in the same category as ours, anyway). And nor does China’s

    Chinese people are conditioned to trust their government’s publications because their government’s publications and promises (like Singapore’s and Switzerland’s) match their government’s deeds.

    It’s that simple and you can verify it for yourself. Here are all the promises that the PRC government has made to its people since 1953: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_of_China. Check ’em out. Did they lie, deceive, mislead or fail to deliver anything they promised? Here’s a recent one:

    Did they earn everyone’s trust?

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @Talha
  236. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Just one name: Edward Bernays.

  237. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    No doubt such is a contributory factor, but how would you establish that it is the definitive or dispositive one?

  238. Yee says:

    Erebus,

    “but the fact it’s unknown leads to a “We’ll never know the truth of it” attitude that unnecessarily undermines the otherwise undeniably good work the CCP is doing. ”

    The incident is not unknown. After all, it’s only 30 years, everybody knows it. What’s unknown is just what the Western media said about it.

    I think it’s unwise to provide an opening for the CIA to launch a propaganda war at China. You can be sure if it was open for discussion, it wouldn’t be about the truth, it would be a propaganda war.

    Well, the discrepancy in propaganda capability between China and USA is way bigger than navy capability. There’s no way China can win.

    Sun-Tzu said: “first, make sure you won’t be defeated.(先为不可胜)”

    • Replies: @Erebus
  239. Talha says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I’m 100% sure the Communist Party in China is able to make the trains run on time more efficiently than a fractious democracy like the US. Little doubt about this.

    Frankly, when the Party also states to their public; “we will solve the Uighur problem” – I don’t doubt they won’t deliver. They can put a target percentage of Uighurs that will be loyal to the Communist Party by, say, 2025 and will likely deliver on promise.

    Peace.

  240. Lo says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Iraq is and was a Shia majority country, right next to Iran. Saddam was a Sunni and a ruthless ruler. Only morons wouldn’t be able to predict that Iran would grow its influence over Iraq after a destructive war. Turns out those morons were (are?) running the ME policy of the US government.

  241. Lo says:
    @Seraphim

    Had they been prosecuted at the time, the problem of the ‘Armenian Genocide’ would have been solved.

    This shit again? Don’t you even read the stuff you post? It says Armenian massacres, that is the definition of the adversaries of Ottomans after a war the Ottomans lost, and Malta Tribunals already prosecuted high ranking Ottoman officials they couldn’t find any evidence for a planned genocide.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Half-Jap
  242. Lo says:
    @Commentator Mike

    You forgot to mention (or don’t know) that the Ottoman army was practically disbanded after WW1. Also, Greece had been fighting as a proxy for the British. British were “watching” because the British public did not support further fighting, but Lloyd George had everything he could to support the Greeks (it is dubious that they themselves could afford further fighting as they’d already been exhausted by that time, in fact Turks located their forces near straits and close to Istanbul after they defeated Greeks and were ready for more fighting, British sued for peace). It is true that Soviets sent the Turks arms, however, throughout the war Greeks were better-supplied & equipped. I mean, it is not a great success to invade a country without an army and then lose against basically a poorly equipped militia led by professional officers. You should read a bit about it, in some cases, Turkish units would be ordered to take the rifle of an enemy soldier as soon as they managed to kill one as they were really short on supplies and equipment.

    Greeks were mostly not massacred in the aftermath. Numbers of populations exchanged are there. There have been revenge cases locally, but the majority of Anatolian Greeks either escaped with the Greek army or were exchanged after the peace treaty. It is expected, given that they celebrated an invading army. Just ask yourself, if China invaded California and the Chinese Americans there welcomed an invading army that killed whites & other Americans, and then were defeated and left. Would you feel sorry for the same Chinese Americans if they were kicked out afterward? The same scenario, just one is real the other is hypothetical.

  243. Talha says:
    @Lo

    I thought at least a few were put to death (or at least their execution was ordered even though they may have left Ottoman territory) by orders of the Sultan for crimes against the non-Muslim populace and the decree was signed by the Shaykh ul-Islam, no?

    The rest of the main architects got a bullet in the head or heart from Armenian assassins in (the, honestly, brilliantly executed) Operation Nemesis.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lo
  244. Lo says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    This is normal and desired. The government should not be trusted any more than any other organizations. If the trust is too high and government officials basically have lifelong jobs, then they will be more corrupted inevitably. The difference is that when there are different political opinions that are exact opposites of each other, people will be more cautious of things they hear from organizations. In China, such a thing does not exist. It is a monoculture, with a > 90% single ethnicity, ruled by a single party whose decisions are law. Add in the Asian neoteny and you have the perfect mix for a people who believe in their own BS. Moreover, even if you are educated, mature and smart, and distrust CCP, you would be cautious to be open with your ideas as your opposition could mean confinement or worse. Just look at Ai Wei Wei or Liu Xiaobo.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  245. Lo says:
    @Talha

    You have to consider that at that point the Ottomans had lost the war and Istanbul was basically following the orders of the British invaders. However, during the forced relocation of Armenians, some local officials did involve in atrocities against Armenians and they were punished (just another proof that there wasn’t a state policy of killing Armenians). This was before the war ended. My point is that tribunals did not find evidence of genocide as a state policy & prisoners were released by the invading side.

    • Replies: @Talha
  246. Talha says:
    @Lo

    My point is that tribunals did not find evidence of genocide as a state policy & prisoners were released by the invading side.

    Do you have a good source for further reading on this?

    Thanks!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lo
  247. @Lo

    Your analogy is wrong. Chinese are newcomers in California. Greeks lived in Anatolia long before Turks even appeared in the region as anyone who has read any classical literature knows.

    • Replies: @Lo
  248. @Lo

    It seems you need to read more:

    https://www.historynet.com/greco-turkish-war-1919-22.htm

    Greeks “mostly not massacred in the aftermath”, 100,000 Greeks and Armenians massacred just in Smyrna. And not to mention that the genocide of Greeks during WWI by the Turks was on the level of that of the Armenians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

    • Replies: @Lo
  249. Lo says:
    @Commentator Mike

    It is not a wrong analogy. As for your points, Greeks also were invaders at some point. First inhabitants and first states of Anatolia were definitely not Greek. Regardless, my point stands, Ottoman Greeks were the citizens of the Ottoman Empire. They made a choice and sided with an invading army of another state. Invaders lost, Turks won, Greece and Turkey had their Muslim and Christian populations exchanged. I don’t see how else they could be treated given the history.

  250. Lo says:
    @Commentator Mike

    First of all, Wikipedia is not a good resource as it favors those who are most politically active and those who know English. Though even in Wikipedia just clicking a couple links deeper will show inconsistencies in these politically charged articles. If you had clicked the population exchange link on the page you sent, you’d see after the war 1.22 million Greeks were sent to Greece, in 1914 the Greek population was 1.8 million. When you consider Greeks who escaped before the exchange, Greeks who remained in Istanbul (excluded from the exchange) and Greeks who died during WW1 (battles & gang fights) it is not difficult to see there wasn’t a “genocide.” There was basically a civil war along with the WW1 for sure, but it wasn’t Turkish government targeting Christians. Encouraged by invaders and hoping to establish their states, Christians started massacring their neighbors, and Turks defended themselves. Greeks & Armenians whine because they are sore losers. Yet you never hear Turks whining about pogroms in Balkans and Greece, do you?

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Commentator Mike
  251. Lo says:
    @Talha

    I don’t really remember where I read most things I know. I just have a good memory, select good resources, but I don’t pay too much attention to titles as I don’t really have a reason to.

  252. Avery says:
    @Lo

    {there wasn’t a “genocide.” }

    There was a Genocide .
    It was a Genocide.

    {There was basically a civil war along with the WW1 for sure, but it wasn’t Turkish government targeting Christians. Encouraged by invaders and hoping to establish their states, Christians started massacring their neighbors, and Turks defended themselves.}

    The standard Turk denialist lie and disinformation.

    Muslim Turks are invaders into Asia Minor from Central and East Asia, and the Balkans.
    They have been massacring indigenous Christians for centuries – Armenians, Assyrian, Pontic Greeks (latecomers) – since the cursed day the nomad hordes arrived at the Eastern edge of Asia Minor.

    In 1894-1895 Sultan Hamid massacred 300,000 Armenian civilians: was there WW1 then also?
    Were there invaders, quote, ‘encouraging’ anyone?

    {Greeks & Armenians whine because they are sore losers}

    Nobody is, quote, ‘whining’: publicizing the Genocides committed by Turks and keeping at it, is one of the the ways we are pursuing our goal – justice. Amongst many others.
    We have won battles against Turks and we have lost. You lose a battle, you lose a battle: that’s how it goes.

    But planning, organizing, and carrying out a Genocide of civilian populations is not losing in war: its a war crime, with consequences.

  253. @Lo

    I was using wikipedia because it’s handy. What do you want, sources in Greek and Armenian languages?

    • Replies: @Lo
  254. Erebus says:
    @Yee

    The incident is not unknown. After all, it’s only 30 years, everybody knows it. What’s unknown is just what the Western media said about it.

    Obviously.

    I think it’s unwise to provide an opening for the CIA to launch a propaganda war at China.

    Probably so, but why provide an opening? Why not just tell the tale as it actually happened, to the extent that the chaos of those days can be known? The core truths of the matter don’t reflect badly on the govt.

    I think that it’s the CCP’s reluctance to expose the internal factional infighting that occurred in both affairs that lies at the heart of their silence.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  255. Lo says:
    @Commentator Mike

    That’s fine, Wikipedia is a good source for some things, not so good for others. For politicized topics, it is not, maybe for purposes other than picking up resources to learn from.

  256. Seraphim says:
    @Avery

    The sore losers were the Turks. They have started the war, allied with the Germans, against Russia, Britain and France. They attacked Russian ports in the Black Sea and declared Jihad on 14 November 1914, exhorting the Muslims all over the world to take arms against the ‘enemies of Islam’ (excepting the Central Powers), with all the promises of the delights of Paradise for the ‘martyrs’.

    • Replies: @Lo
  257. @Lo

    ‘The government should not be trusted any more than any other organizations. ‘

    That’s a Roman assumption that has been borne out in 2000 years of our experience with Roman governments.

    The Confucian assumption is the precise opposite and it has been borne out in 2000 years of their experience with Confucian governments.

    Ditto ‘different political opinions’. That’s a Roman thing.

    Confucians have the same goals for society and any disagreements about how to reach them are settled pragmatically, by trial and error.

    • Replies: @Lo
  258. @Erebus

    “I think that it’s the CCP’s reluctance to expose the internal factional infighting that occurred in both affairs that lies at the heart of their silence.”

    What????

    Far from being reluctant to expose the internal factional infighting, the CCP discussed exhaustively internally and published its findings in White Papers.It also discussed it with foreign media.

    A few months after Tiananmen Deng discussed it publicly with Chinese-American academic Li Zhengdao, “In suppressing the turmoil we were at pains to avoid hurting people, especially the students; that was our guiding principle” and criticized his colleague Zhao Ziyang whom, he said, “Was clearly exposed as siding with the agitators and attempting to split the Party.”

    Deng told West Germany’s Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, “The students should not be blamed too much. The roots of the problem lay within the leadership of the Party.”

    James Miles[1], the BBC’s Beijing correspondent from 1988 to 1994, writes, “A year after Tiananmen, Deng elaborated on his fears of civil war during a meeting with former Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau. ‘You can imagine,’ Deng said, ‘what China in turmoil would be like. If turmoil erupts in China, it wouldn’t just be a Cultural Revolution-type problem. During the Cultural Revolution you still had the prestige of the elder generation of leaders such as Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai. Even though it was described as ‘all-out civil war,’ actually there wasn’t any major fighting. It wasn’t a proper civil war. Now it’s not at all the same. If turmoil erupts again, to the extent that the party is no longer effective and state power is no longer effective and one faction grabs one part of the army and another faction grabs another part of the army–that would be civil war. If some so-called democratic fighters seize power, they’ll start fighting among themselves. As soon as civil war breaks out there’ll be rivers of blood. What would be the point then of talking about ‘human rights’? As soon as civil war breaks out, local warlords will spring up everywhere, production will plummet, communications will be severed, and it won’t be a matter of a few million or even tens of millions of refugees. There’d be well over a hundred million people fleeing the country and the first to be affected would be Asia, now the most promising part of the world. It would be a global disaster.’”

    A decade later, in 1998, President Clinton discussed the incident with President Jiang Zemin, as John Border[2] reported, “The drama of the meeting came in a remarkable 70-minute news conference, carried live on nationwide Chinese television, in which the two Presidents differed sharply on the nature of personal freedom, the role of the state and the meaning of the Tiananmen Square demonstrations that were violently suppressed by the Chinese Government in July 1989…Mr. Clinton flatly told the Chinese leader that his Government had been ‘wrong’ to use force to end the peaceful demonstrations of the spring of 1989 and that broad personal freedom and political expression were the price of admission to the world community of the twenty-first century. ‘For all of our agreements, we still disagree about the meaning of what happened then,’ Mr. Clinton said in his opening statement, referring to the violent crackdown on Tiananmen Square the night of July 3-4, 1989, that left hundreds of protesters dead.”

    [1] The Legacy of Tiananmen, James A. R. Miles

    [2] CLINTON IN CHINA: THE OVERVIEW; Clinton and Jiang Debate Views Live on TV, Clashing on Rights. By JOHN M. BRODER. JUNE 28, 1998

    • Replies: @Erebus
  259. Lo says:

    I don’t want to further comment on an irrelevant topic, but since it started will continue a little.

    The standard Turk denialist lie and disinformation.

    First of all, it isn’t a valid argument to call someone denialist. Guilty may deny a crime, both so will the innocent. There are no disinformations in the part you quoted. It is not a lie or disinformation that Ottoman Christians, heartened by Balkans and imperial powers wanted to create their own states in Anatolia. In fact, the strong reaction they faced in Anatolia proper is partially because of Muslim massacres in Caucasia and Balkans, many Turks (and Circassians) from these areas had already seen the same scenario when they barely saved their lives by escaping to Anatolia. In the weakest time of a collapsing empire, Armenians & Greeks tried to kill their Turkish compatriots. How else could Turks respond?

    Muslim Turks are invaders into Asia Minor from Central and East Asia, and the Balkans.
    They have been massacring indigenous Christians for centuries – Armenians, Assyrian, Pontic Greeks

    Actually, Armenians are the last people to complain about something like this. They were being treated very well, surely better than how previous conquerors Eastern Roman Empire treated them.

    In 1894-1895 Sultan Hamid massacred 300,000 Armenian civilians: was there WW1 then also?
    Were there invaders, quote, ‘encouraging’ anyone?

    I don’t know details of such massacres, 300,000 is a suspiciously high number. It is true, however, that Kurds were organized to resist against Armenian revolutionaries and it seems that they acted autonomously (in hope of loot most likely). They didn’t just attack Armenians though, they also killed Alawite Turks. As for encouraging part, both Armenian revolutionary parties were established before Hamidian horseman. A bid for an independent Armenia was made in 1878 as well. Moreover, before even 19th century imperial powers were provoking Christian minorities of the Ottoman Empire. French & Russia particularly played a huge role in Armenian uprisings. By early 19th century, Armenians had zero interest in a rebellion. Research General Sebastiani’s report to Napoleon. He says Turks trust Armenians tremendously and Armenians are very content. Fun fact: Hamid’s mother’s last name is Dadian. Which might mean he is half Armenian by blood.

    Nobody is, quote, ‘whining’: publicizing the Genocides committed by Turks and keeping at it, is one of the the ways we are pursuing our goal – justice.

    Why is your justice cutting only one way though? In multiple cities in Eastern Anatolia, Armenians had all but wiped urban populations. Because revolutionaries knew that they were a minority. Sure, many Armenians had nothing to do with revolts or rebellions, they didn’t deserve to be forced out of Anatolia but don’t tell me that Armenians as a group did nothing wrong.

    We have won battles against Turks and we have lost. You lose a battle, you lose a battle: that’s how it goes.

    Well, at least you accept that there were battles. True, Armenians won and lost. Ultimately they lost. Same for Turks in Bulgaria or Greece. They lost, and got massacred and had to escape.

    But planning, organizing, and carrying out a Genocide of civilian populations is not losing in war: its a war crime, with consequences.

    There were no plans to destroy Armenian population. The Ottomans were not a modern European imperial power. In many ways, they were still a medieval country. Relocating populations en masse had been a solution that they used in the past, rebelling Turks were also relocated to Bulgaria and elsewhere in Balkans. They could not provide and protect people sufficiently. Kurdish gangs did kill many Armenians, and diseases also killed many. But, for their failure to protect Armenians, Ottoman governor of Adana was executed along with other officials. This was long before the war was lost. A government intending to genocide a people do not execute its own officials for their failure to protect the said population. Not to forget Union and Progress had Armenian ministers, Armenians in Western regions (away from Russian front) were exempt from relocations, and the migration path was right next to River Tigris including the final destination. If they were most competent people the empire would not collapse, the same people also lost 90,000 of their own troops without any wars in Eastern front due to spectacularly poor planning.

    Bottom line is, you cannot show any historical Armenian hatred among Turks. From about ~1000 to mid-1800s Armenians had no issues and there are no signs of friction. If Armenians didn’t believe in Russian and French promises and didn’t revolt they would most likely remain in Anatolia as they’d been in the previous 800 years. Armenian revolutionaries brought their own people calamity, and their grandsons are now blaming Turks for it. What would they have done if they’d won the war in a land they were a minority anyway?

    • Replies: @Talha
  260. Lo says:
    @Seraphim

    Lol, it is more complex than that. You forgot the oil. Britain, France, and Russia had already agreed to divide the Ottoman Empire. Which is why they rejected an alliance with the Ottomans before they are allied with Germans. That is real history, it is more complex than the third rate blogs tell you. No one goes to war to get 72 virgins and paradise. You forgot that the same people were also allied with Germans, who, to my knowledge weren’t exactly Muslims.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  261. Lo says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Chinese do get a lot of undeserved bad press. But it is true that Dr. Roberts defends China more than Mao himself. Which actually makes someone like me look anti-Chinese even though I’d normally give support in some topics (not the tariffs, Uighurs, Tibetans and especially Taiwan though lol).

    • Replies: @denk
  262. Lo says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    A comparative essay of the two could be a very interesting read, don’t know if it is already written? As far as I know, China hasn’t been any more stable than the West in the past, and still today their government officials are no less corrupt which is why Xi is leading an anti-corruption campaign. Maybe corruption is embedded in governance.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  263. Talha says:
    @Lo

    You are making some good points. I do remember reading that the Armenians were so pissed off at the way the Byzantines has messed around in their territory, there were Armenians joining Seljuks in cross border raids into Byzantine territory even before Manzikert.

    many Armenians had nothing to do with revolts or rebellions, they didn’t deserve to be forced out of Anatolia

    This right here is key and where the Turks dropped the ball. They knew not everyone was involved but they approached the problem as if guilt or innocence didn’t matter. If they would have been more surgical in their approach, they may have been able to avert a tragedy in the huge loss of life and potentially have saved part of their territory in the long run. As it was, their actions dashed any hope that Armenia would have rejoined a reconstituted “Republic of Anatolia” after they beat back the foreign powers.

    Yes, people like the Circassians had something similar happen to them not too many years prior, but the crimes of others do not excuse one’s own crimes and policy failures.

    Peace.

  264. Anon[588] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jason Liu

    Can we get the whites Christian out of USA ?
    They have been only here for 400 years . Uyghur has been here in China for 1400 years .

    What do you think ? Will you badmouth the Latinos and Blacks?

  265. Erebus says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    White papers are for policy/history wonks, not for the general public. The general Chinese public knows little of what happened. The people I talked to around June 4, especially the younger ones, have no idea that the main clashes were between workers and the army with the army getting the worst of it, and absolutely no idea that the Party was in crisis. They just know that their VPNs stopped working and assume the govt is hiding something nasty. In HK, they’ve held a TSM vigil on every anniversary since 1990 that mainlanders attend.

    That is what I meant by “silence”.

    Similarly with the relatively recent BoXiLai affair. There’s a vague notion of an internal power struggle, but how close the Party came to a coup is utterly unknown to the man on the street.

    That’s what Anon[134] meant by “incompetent”.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  266. Seraphim says:
    @Lo

    The partition of the Ottoman Empire (actually the liberation of Christian lands and peoples from the Ottoman yoke) was a project of Russia and the Hapsburg Empire which started to take shape after the failure of the last Ottoman jihad before the Gates of Vienna. It met with the opposition of France and Britain which saw in the keeping on life support the ‘Sick man of Europe’ a preservation of their huge commercial interests in the Ottoman Empire and a mean to ‘stop Russia’. The wobbling of Austria who had its own ambitions in the Balkans, in following through with the project delayed the inevitable outcome. Had the Ottoman Empire fully implemented the Tanzimat reforms and remained neutral in WW1 it could have survived for some time, perhaps better off because it would have retained the newly discovered oil fields in Mesopotamia.
    Oil played a major role in the redistribution of the mandates of the League of Nations after the end of the war (when Americans also began to interfere in the region), it’s not only you who knew that.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  267. @Lo

    China hasn’t been any more stable than the West in the past?

    China didn’t have a 1000-year Dark Ages, and its written language and form of government haven’t changed in 2,000 years. That’s pretty stable.

    ‘today their government officials are no less corrupt’?

    There is simply no comparison between corruption in China and corruption in the US. Vide

  268. @Erebus

    The general Chinese public knows little of what happened. ???

    If the general public reads the local newspapers they know the body count and if they watch TV they know America’s side of the story.

    How much more attention should be devoted to an unsuccessful CIA operation?http://www.unz.com/article/tiananmen-square-1989-revisited/

    • Replies: @Erebus
  269. @Seraphim

    Yes, during the Crimean war period. But by the time of WWI didn’t Britain and France back Serbia so as to derail the German project for the Baghdad railway to link central Europe to the Middle East? Something similar could be going on now to derail the Eurasian Silk Road project that China and Russia are pushing for. One more reason they don’t want peace in the Middle East and want to destabilise the central Asian republics using muslim terrorisms. And likewise western China using the same Islamic terrorism MO.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  270. denk says:
    @Lo

    Chinese even though I’d normally give support in some topics (not the tariffs, Uighurs, Tibetans and especially Taiwan though lol)

    YOu are still clueless,
    At least half jap nails it…..

    jap

    While judge/jury is waiting for objective evidence on Uygurs,

    You and your ilks , especially colin wright and onebornfree [sic], all presume China
    guilty as charged.

    • Replies: @Lo
  271. Lo says:
    @denk

    You have anger issues. I prescribe you crushed fermented lemur tails and rhino testicles infused in soy sauce for a month. By the good luck of celestial Chinese medicine, you will be healed in no time.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Half-Jap
  272. Seraphim says:
    @Commentator Mike

    That’s to turn the things on their heads. The Serbian question had nothing to do with the Berlin-Baghdad Railway. British and Russian objections to the railway have been generally settled by 1913 as well as the prospects of opening the oil fields in Mesopotamia. In 1911 the Turkish Petroleum Company was founded with the aim to exploit Mosul oil with joint British and German participation.
    The Anglo-German partnership was ended by the outbreak of the war.
    It is clear that the national problems in the Balkans and their mishandling by Austro-Hungary and Germany have played a more important role in the lead to the war. Both of them were unhappy with the outcomes of the Balkan Wars and they rushed to block Russia gaining too much influence in the region.
    It is no less true that the ambitions of Germany to push out the Russians and the British from the Middle East were not viewed with equanimity by both the Russians and British, who agreed to suspend their ‘Great Game’ in Persia, Afghanistan and Tibet and conclude the Anglo-Russian Entente in 1907. The support of Germany for Pan-Islamism, with the clear intention to destabilize the British, Russian and French Empires, could not have been viewed without suspicion by the Russian, British and French. Actually the Germans were trying to derail the emerging Eurasian Entante using the Muslim terrorists. It didn’t serve her well in the end.

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Commentator Mike
  273. Lo says:
    @Seraphim

    He is correct, you are not with regards to attitude towards the Ottomans. As I said, Union and Progress already wanted to ally with Britain. They were rejected. Knowing Ally goals, they sided with Germany hoping if Axis won the war, the Ottoman Empire would be better positioned. Long before WW1, the British and French had imperial plans for Ottoman ME. Do you actually think they’d let the Ottomans control almost all the oil supply of the world?

  274. @Seraphim

    British and Russian objections to the railway have been generally settled by 1913 as well as the prospects of opening the oil fields in Mesopotamia.

    Some would beg to differ. R.G.D. Laffan, a senior British military adviser attached to the Serbian Army, stated:

    “If Berlin–Baghdad were achieved, a huge block of territory producing every kind of economic wealth, and unassailable by sea-power would be united under German authority …. Russia would be cut off by this barrier from her western friends, Great Britain and France”

    “German and Turkish armies would be within easy striking distance of our Egyptian interests, and from the Persian Gulf, our Indian Empire would be threatened. The port of Alexandretta and the control of the Dardanelles would soon give Germany enormous naval power in the Mediterranean.”

    “A glance at the map of the world will show how the chain of states stretched from Berlin to Baghdad. The German Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Bulgaria, Turkey. One little strip of territory alone blocked the way and prevented the two ends of the chain from being linked together. That little strip was Serbia. Serbia stood small but defiant between Germany and the great ports of Constantinople and Salonika, holding the Gate of the East… Serbia was really the first line of defense of our eastern possessions. If she were crushed or enticed into the ‘Berlin–Baghdad’ system, then our vast but slightly defended empire would soon have felt the shock of Germany’s eastward thrust.”

    I wouldn’t say there was an Anglo-German partnership, more like Britain using every device known to obstruct and delay progress of the railway, while pretending to hold out the hope of ultimate agreement so as to keep the German side off balance, as pointed out by William Engdahl.

  275. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Erebus

    If you have a Twitter account, I encourage you to set him and his audience straight.

    I don’t have a Twitter account but appreciate the power and influence it could generate. In a smearing arena it could take “have you stopped hitting your wife” to the nth degree. Many people have certainly mastered the tool to their great advantage.

    I don’t know if you noticed or not. ‘AP’ appears on the left top corner of the video clip. The question is: is it an Associated Press produced video? or someone else forged an AP video?

    A couple eventful days in HK. On the same day a huge crowd turned out to support the HK police , the NYT has this piece ..

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/30/world/asia/did-hong-kong-police-abuse-protesters-what-videos-show.html

    Of course , videos like this aren’t shown in AP or the NYT.

    The day after, counter-protesters broke into the HK parliament building and trashed it.

    HK has become a battle ground for China and the US.

  276. Erebus says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    If the general public reads the local newspapers they know the body count and if they watch TV they know America’s side of the story.

    20 years ago, one saw people reading newspapers. Today, I can’t remember the last time I even saw a newspaper, never mind somebody reading one. Hong Kong is a different matter altogether, of course.

    As for television, every time I go to a restaurant, barber or somebody’s home where a TV is on, I see 1 of 2 programs. An unimaginably silly variety/game show, or one of the historical soap operas. For a while, one saw a lot of old war films, but that seems to have died down. News? Never. Not once.

    From where I sit, it looks like my previous complaint about your work remains outstanding. Namely, downloading CCP White Papers and WTO docs from Thailand doesn’t yield a nuanced view of China, or of anywhere else. They are relevant, of course, but they’re a super-macro view, and the devils reside in the details. Or, at least the gremlins do.

    There’s an on-the-ground reality they and you are missing. I’d submit that so substantial a chunk is missing that the picture that emerges from your work appears almost as skewed as that produced by the less honest. The reaction from those commentors crying Propaganda! should be as unsurprising as it is unwarranted.

    That reality includes the double-degree’d young chap I work with who believes the TSM was all about rioters and hooligans. He was quite surprised to hear what I told him during an after work dinner a couple of days from the anniversary.

    How much more attention should be devoted to an unsuccessful CIA operation?

    The CCP drew a lot of attention to it in exactly the wrong way by shutting down the international internet in the weeks before and after June 4. That’s what Anon[134] was referring to, and that’s what people noticed.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  277. denk says:
    @Lo

    thats quite a round about way to admit
    your’r a fool.

    May be you’ve ‘verified, objective evidence’,
    show us by all means. ?

    Hmm, not holding my breath.

    hehhehehe

  278. Seraphim says:

    The ‘imperial’ plans of the French, British, Russians, were the efforts of the Great Powers to induce the Ottomans to address the problem of the Christian populations, especially the Armenians, which became acute after the Berlin Congress.
    But there were no partition plans until the Ottoman Empire entered the war on the wrong side. The war was not imposed on the Ottoman Empire with the view to steal its oil. On the contrary it went to war with the hope to regain the territories lost in the Balkan Wars.

    • Replies: @Lo
  279. @Erebus

    Vague ad hominems don’t cut it. What specific points of mine do you want to contend?

    Quote them and give your reasons.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  280. Erebus says:

    You continue, apparently blithely, to miss the point.
    I don’t contend any of your points. I contend your implicit claim that they tell the whole story.

    As for ad hominems, they must be vague indeed as I don’t detect any.

  281. Half-Jap says:
    @Lo

    And a trial by the victor, too, if I remember right. Britain, yes?

    • Replies: @Lo
  282. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Destroying easy targets. Reminds me of Ben Shapiro.

  283. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    This thing about stability is patently false. With each turn of dynasty, there has been a rewriting of history and language. It has been the right of the conqueror to do so. China has a disjointed history. There is a great current of what is Chinese, but the Zhou is not the Ming, and definitely not the current state referred to as China. I doubt the Ming would recognize it at all.

    As for trust, if you know you are in a country where the gov’t can and will prosecute those that are not accepting of the governance, and is loud enough, one gets in trouble, then yes, you will get a great review. This shite sandwich is wonderful, thank you very much.
    You love these charts, but if you are a scientist, then why do you never challenge these? Garbage in, garbage out. Every one of my Chinese friends and my wife and extended family would admit that there is no point challenging the authority. I will not ask more, even if I wished to. Friends abroud would state that there is no gain in challenging, and would not help them at all in life, to dissent and criticize.

  284. Half-Jap says:
    @Lo

    There are plenty of good research published and recorded in the US medical database to support many ancient medical practices, though not those rhino or whatever stuff you refer to.
    But Denk is an angry mofo. Strangely antiquated, as many of us here get along famously with the mainlanders, and we do have our own agenda while we are still a satrapy of the USSA.
    Some kind of inferiority complex out to prove points on everything, eh?

    • Replies: @Lo
  285. Lo says:
    @Half-Jap

    Yes, that is correct.

  286. Lo says:
    @Half-Jap

    Yeah haha, I am just messing with him. Some traditional medicine works to some extent, most of it is useless. In the case of Chinese medicine though, some of the most useless beliefs persist. They think just about everything is a cure for some health issues.

    • Replies: @denk
  287. Talha says:
    @Half-Jap

    China has a disjointed history.

    One thing I have noticed about Chinese history is that when it has failures and corrections, they are extraordinarily bloody affairs. Nothing compares to the level of bloodshed within the borders of China historically during civil wars – not until the 20th century when Europe took the crown.

    Peace.

  288. Seraphim says:
    @Half-Jap

    Is there any country where the government cannot and would not prosecute those who are not accepting of the governance?

    • Replies: @Biff
  289. Lo says:
    @Seraphim

    You do realize in most cases issues of Christian population was just an excuse to involve and weaken the Ottoman internal affairs right? It is no different than suddenly caring about Uighurs today. I don’t think West has a lot of credibility with regards to caring for humanitarian causes. If you know some history you’d known that most of the time it is just a convenient excuse to interfere in other countries internal matters. Which is why I’d recommend Uighurs to be careful and not get radicalized, as much as I’d recommend Chinese to avoid heavy-handed policies. If the Ottomans were genocidal through their history as some persist on this site with no evidence, there wouldn’t have been millions of Christians within their borders after 500 years (800+ years if you include the precursors to the Ottomans). It took French or Britain less than a century to impose their languages in their colonies, even shorter for Spanish to convert/exile/massacre ALL Muslims and Jews out of Spain. Had Ottomans acted the same as Europe, there wouldn’t be Christian populations that could have problems, to begin with. Now, forgetting your initial claim, you will follow with straw man “they allowed Christians because Christians paid extra tax,” which is irrelevant (as it was to compensate for not serving in the military, they had the option to not pay tax and serve in the army, they overwhelmingly chose to pay tax and not go to war).

  290. Biff says:
    @Seraphim

    Is there any country where the government cannot and would not prosecute those who are not accepting of the governance?

    Agree

  291. denk says:
    @Half-Jap

    OOps,
    I see the half breed is even nastier than the original article !

    Look honey,
    YOu bitch about murikkan imperialism all day,
    yet you let them rape your sisters at will, …….
    all expense paid by the jp govn.

    Talking about Chinese med,
    May i recommend Tiger’s dick ?
    They say it do wonders to eunuchs, it might even help you guys grow some backbone and cojones.

    hehehhe

  292. denk says:
    @Lo

    Like I say, you’ve no evidence on so-called Uighurs torture camps.

    Why dont you just man up and admit it, ?

    I guess you also need a dose of tiger’s dick like half-jap, ?

  293. @Avery

    1894-1895 Sultan Hamid massacred 300,000 Armenian civilians

    Ill wait for credible sources lol

  294. @Godfree Roberts

    The graph with India with 70 percent is just patently false…I don’t know why anyone would even bother that….that information becomes void when India is second….

  295. Seraphim says:

    You talk as if the Ottoman Empire (and Islam in general) was not itself the result of a multi-secular war against the world of Christianity, which supposedly gave it an eternal right to do as they please with the subjugated populations and the resistance against it a proof of Christian malevolence and hypocrisy, an act of rebellion against God’s will (and Mahomed’s). But Christians were reclaiming their stolen lands.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @Lo
  296. @Half-Jap

    Look at the present circumstances of those who have challenged, on sound Constitutional grounds–the authority of the US Government.

    Where is Manning, who was true to his military oath? Where is Assange who, by revealing war crimes, saved thousands of lives?

    Where are all the heroes of ‘free speech’ in America.

    Don’t be naive.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  297. @Seraphim

    I suppose you were replying to Lo. Yes, but there’s always an element of big powers fighting over resources and geo-strategic dominance when it comes to these wars.

  298. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Elsewhere I have compared China as an evil twin the of US, and later elaborated that both purport to protect rights (although the US and China (and rest of the world for that matter) are different in that the US rights were originally recognized as inherent as being Man, as opposed to others where rights are a concession by the Sovereign state) but they do not when it is not in the interest of the state.
    Manning and Assange are heroes.
    I am sympathetic to the CPC considering the tragic cycle of their history and their surveillance state is a mere extension of securing continuity, and not out of assumed malice on the part of the populace. It’s actually not too bad there, to their credit. But it’s not a free country, just as the US is not, when matters of state are concerned. Even more unfree in the US in certain regards, and in others China, but they govern in their own way.
    In any event, I hope you’d provide analyses on the weaknesses of studies you present, because as a scientist and attorney, that’s how it works. Broad public may be mystified, but such is sophistry.
    I will always appreciate your presentation and perspective on my beloved neighbor and wife’s motherland, China, though!

  299. Lo says:
    @Seraphim

    I don’t care much about religious perspective. However, no, they weren’t given eternal right to do as they pleased by their own laws. Religion or not, Turks would eventually invade Anatolia. Contrary to the claims here, Turks’ arrival to Anatolia had little to do with religion and everything with perceived weakness when scouts returned with their reports. There is no right that comes from the heavens. People took what they could, and left what they couldn’t.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  300. Seraphim says:
    @Lo

    Then there is no reason to accuse the ‘imperials’ that they took what they wanted, and the evicted owners to want to take back their properties (the more that they were so valuable).
    You may not care about ‘religious perspective’ (and therefore to reamain clueless about what was going on in the Ottoman Empire from start to end), but people then cared enough to go to war for it.
    I am sure that you won’t be so flippant about ‘transfer of ownership’ if a ‘niggah’ took your home just because he “took what he could”.

    • Replies: @Lo
  301. Lo says:
    @Seraphim

    I already explained my case, it is a myth that there was a huge Christian genocide policy in the Ottoman Empire. One look at the constituents of the Ottomans and Europe by the 19th century shows that if there was a religious genocide that would be by Europeans. I mean Europe didn’t even tolerate Christians of other denominations until very late in its history, Irish was genocided by the English for their faith. Not to mention that an empire that is just based on subjugation and killing cannot last 600 years. Relative to their historical counterparts, the Ottomans were far more tolerant of different faiths and minorities, and they didn’t care about “Turkishness,” as some fools here keep claiming. You are taking little what you know about European history and applying it to a different culture, and concluding that there must have been genocides for a great Turkish cause.

    As for imperials, yes, from an objective point of view they took what they could and they cannot be blamed for taking advantage of the weakness of others. However, you are the one who keeps trying to bring in religion and moral arguments. And more often than not, they are either outright false or misrepresentations. As I said, whether Turks were Muslim or not, Armenians and Greeks would have lost Anatolia. They didn’t lose it because Turks were Muslim, they lost it because they were weak. When they were strong, they also took it from other people. Their pleas of Christianity vs. Islam is just empty whining, especially given religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

  302. Zeb says:
    @onebornfree

    Epoch Times is anti China propaganda organisation owned by a Falon Gong follower, they also run NTD Australia on FB, even though MediaBias/Fact Check says otherwise. I checked on FB and they are connected. They always publish staged photos showing reenactments of torture.

  303. Seraphim says:

    Attacking the straw man (‘bring in religious and moral arguments’) and whataboutism (‘the English genocided the Irish for their faith’) are not proofs that the Turks did not do that or that they were not among the aggressors and initiators of the conflict. The same with the ‘argument’ that ‘religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant’, because it was not at the time we are speaking about.
    Your sophomoric adolescent illusion that you know more about European history that anyone else is laughable. I wonder whether you know anything at all. Americans have difficulties in placing countries on the map (Austria=Australia!).

    • Replies: @Lo
  304. Lo says:
    @Seraphim

    My arguments are laid clearly, I also presented support for each one of them. It is not like anything I say is secret anyway, you can open any expert books on these topics that you talk about and find everything I say there as well. It is not a straw man if you bring something into your argument, and it is not whataboutism to give other examples, I am giving a simple example to show that Europe (Christianity) itself would not guarantee the existence of Armenians or Greeks as Christians regularly destroyed Christians of different denominations, and Armenians were already being oppressed by Greeks at the time Turks came. You claimed that Christians were genocided by the Ottomans and it was a policy, there is simply zero evidence for a targeted genocide of Christians or any other religions. Ottomans were a lot like Romans with regards to religion and ethnicities, in fact, they considered themselves as the continuation of Rome.

    • Replies: @Anounder
  305. RobinG says:
    @redmudhooch

    ….on JC’s watch, I think he’s done a lot of good since he left office.

    For sure, which is why it’s disappointing that he’s joined the ‘Russian-Meddling’ chorus, to the extent that he credits them with Trump’s election.

  306. Jazman says:

    Your articles are amazing , thank you so much for helping me to learn more about China in more honest way

  307. Anounder says:
    @Lo

    Would you be proud to have a half-Black grandson or gay son? Just wondering.

    • Replies: @Lo
  308. Lo says:
    @Anounder

    If you were my daughter or son, then yes.

    • Replies: @Anounder
  309. Anounder says:
    @Lo

    So that’s a no, you don’t care about your lineage. How liberal/bugman.

    I’m sure you think “multicultualism” without a police state in law ala Singapore or segregation ala the Muslim empires and South Asia works too.

    • Replies: @Lo
  310. Lo says:
    @Anounder

    I said if you were my child I wouldn’t care because judging by your questions you’re not the brightest bulb, so I’d be pretty certain there was a mix up at the hospital.

    • Replies: @Anounder
  311. Anounder says:
    @Lo

    Just letting you know, there have been no remotely accomplished multicultural societies that didn’t either depend on threats of ultraviolence to ensure the compliance of foreign populations, use segregation, or collapse into civil war as the Romans did.

  312. @Lo

    Where do you people come up with this stuff?? Literally the only Muslim nation who was upset was Turkey – because they are part of NATO they had to make a little noise about their ethnic brethren. Literally the acentral Asian nations give China intelligence on the Uighur jihadist movements. That is part of what the SCO is all about. You all are pretending as if there werent many jihad attacks. As to “ancestral lands” Han people were there in BC days. Just ask the Parthians… The west knows about them because of China interacting with them. But I see a lot of people post on here who live in a country where aboriginies were basically wiped out. You can easily visit that region and see Uighurs. In fact Muslim leaders do… Which is why they – through ambassadors to the UN – wrote letters in support of the camps. No question there are wrong things done – that is true of law enforcement in every nation. But the talk of culutural genocide and of colonization is bogus and the Muslim world knows it. Even Turkey recently rescinded its criticism.

  313. @Anounder

    You people and your desire to separate from blacks…. Guess what – any of your female relatives can be impregnated by a black male if she is fertile. Why? The same reason a timber wolf and a coyote can mate. The same way a australian dingo and your pet dog can mate. Your pet dog can also mate with a wolf or a coyote. Your pet cant mate with a lion or a gorilla because they are not related. So sorry – you cant separate from Sub Saharans no matter how much you hate it. God put us all here. You can accept a blood donation from a sub saharan african and you will live. You cant get one from a polar bear. Get it now???

  314. @Godfree Roberts

    I once thought you had honest accurate information to impart despite a sceptical disposition and many years sussing out propagandists but I now see you as a shamedul shill, rewarded in some way for your distortions, and the contrast I make is with well made BBC and ABC documentaries and this piece with the hallmarks of truth about it:

    Fear and oppression in Xinjiang: China’s war on Uighur culture – https://on.ft.com/2LQG7tn via @FT

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