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Triggered by Bach: Classical Music as Implicit White Supremacy
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“White supremacist” has long been the preferred Jewish epithet to throw at White people who have the temerity to do what Jews do routinely: openly advocate for their ethnic interests. This hackneyed label has always been utterly beside the point: whether Whites are superior to non-Whites has no logical bearing on the moral legitimacy of White people defending their collective interests. Having said this, everyone is well aware that the achievements of White people in countless cultural and scientific domains surpass those of other groups, and can objectively be regarded as “superior.” A conspicuous example is the Western musical tradition.

The superiority of Western classical music is so decisive one could almost rest the argument for the superiority of Western culture on it alone. There exists a hierarchy in the world of sound, as in other phenomena. Noise occupies the lowest rung in this hierarchy; it is an undifferentiated mass of sound in which no distinction exists. The lowest kind of music, say that of Australia’s Aborigines, most closely corresponds to noise. Western classical music, by contrast, exists on the highest rung because it apprehends sound in the most highly differentiated way possible. It is the farthest from noise and most fully exploits the inherent potential of the world of sound.

How well this potential is apprehended and developed can lead to Bach’s inimitable counterpoint, the extraordinary tonal architecture of Beethoven’s symphonies, Bruckner’s sonic cathedrals — or to banging on a hollow log with a stick. Besides stimulating pleasure in audiences, great classical music has an unrivalled capacity to shed light on our ontological predicament and connect aesthetic experience with the transcendental. Goethe once noted, with reference to Bach’s great fugues, where as many as five separate lines of musical argument are simultaneously sustained, that “it is as though the eternal harmony has a conversation with itself.” Only Western classical music, I would argue, can create this sublime impression.

To point out the foregoing is to trigger rage from anti-White commentators who huff that it has “long been an argument of white supremacists, Nazis, Neo-Nazis, and racial separatists that ‘classical music,’ the music of ‘white people,’ is inherently more sophisticated, complicated, and valuable than the musical traditions of Africa, Asia, South America, or the Middle East, thus proving the innate superiority of the ‘white race.’” The problem with this assessment, aside from denying the very existence of the White race, is the inability to demonstrate (or even attempt to demonstrate) that Western classical music is not inherently more sophisticated, complicated (and yes valuable) than other musical traditions.

That classical music stands as a glaring (and galling) testament to the preeminence of European high culture (and implicitly of the race overwhelmingly responsible for it), was evident in the reaction to a speech President Trump gave in Poland in 2017. The speech, praising Western civilization, included the line “we write symphonies.” Jonathan Capehart, a columnist at The Washington Post, fumed: “What on Earth does that have to do with anything? In that one line, taken in context with everything else Trump said, what I heard was the loudest of dog whistles. A familiar boast that swells the chests of white nationalists everywhere.” For Anthony Tommasini of The New York Times, Trump’s point, extolling the “richness, history and, indeed, the superiority of Western culture,” was “all too clear and dismaying,” Alex Ross, Jewish music critic for the New Yorker, found “ludicrous and sinister” Trump’s “implication that some cultures are incapable of creating symphonies,” a sentiment that, he maintained, should have “stirred bad memories.”

Classical Music as Insufficiently Diverse

As well as decrying as deeply offensive the invocation of classical music to praise Western civilization (and thus White people), commentators routinely bemoan the lack of “diversity” in the genre. According to Jewish music critic Greg Sandow, the “problem of racial diversity in classical music has long been the elephant in the room,” and he labels “ugly” the fact that classical music, “in practice pretty much a lily-white art,” claims “special privileges (lavish funding, school programs devoted to it) in an age of growing diversity.” Rather than simply reflecting the divergent preferences and aptitudes of different racial groups, the underrepresentation of Black and Brown people in Western orchestras (and their audiences) is inevitably ascribed to White racism. Black screenwriter Candace Allen, the ex-wife of conductor Sir Simon Rattle, branded the British classical music world “racist,” claiming a combination of discrimination and lack of exposure to classical music at an early age meant Blacks were unlikely to make it to the concert hall (in the audience or on stage), and when they did, “their sense of alienation made the experience not one to be repeated.”

According to this conception, an insidious White supremacist conspiracy keeps the classical repertoire dominated by the music of dead White men performed by living White men, and prevents Black and Brown people from succeeding in the genre. For the “White supremacist” social order to be maintained, Raymond Arsenault insists, “Blacks had to know their place, and the world of popular music was one of the places where they allegedly belonged.” While the “relativist revolution begun by anthropologist Franz Boas and others had already eroded the presumption of black inferiority,” in the Western world of public opinion and culture, “the time-honored shibboleths of white-supremacy held sway.”[1]Raymond Arsenault, The Sound of Freedom: Marian Anderson, the Lincoln Memorial, and the Concert That Awakened America (New York: Bloomsbury, 2009), 81 One of these “shibboleths” was that:

Mastery of classical technique required superior intelligence, discipline, and years of training. The world of classical music was the province not only of natural talent but of cultivated genius. Here the barriers to black achievement were thought to be both cultural and physiological. Conventional wisdom held that blacks did things naturally and impulsively without much thought or deliberation. Classical music, by contrast, was intellectual, highbrow, and European in origin. As such, it was deemed inappropriate for African Americans three or four generations removed from the jungles of Africa. Black success in the world of classical music would be tantamount to beating whites at their own game, something that could not be tolerated or even contemplated in white supremacist circles. It would represent an affront to white sensibilities, upsetting expectations based on multiple layers of observation and socialization.[2]Ibid., 75.
(Raymond Arsenault, The Sound of Freedom: Marian Anderson, the Lincoln Memorial, and the Concert That Awakened America (New York: Bloomsbury, 2009), 81)

The White supremacist conspiracy to thwart Black and Brown achievement in classical music purportedly extends to musical education where, in the most commonly used theory textbooks in the United States, only 1.63% of musical examples come from non-White composers. This is problematic for Linda Shaver-Gleason because studying a particular piece “reaffirms its canonical status; enshrining it in a textbook is deeming it worthy of study.” Constantly referencing White composers “reinforces the idea that they’re the ones who deserve the most respect, as if to say, ‘Marvel at the many techniques Mozart used so perfectly!” Ethan Hein, a (presumably Jewish) doctoral fellow in music education at NYU, decries the stubbornness of music teachers in teaching “European-descended” classical music over that of “music descending from the vernacular traditions of the African diaspora.” Orienting music education towards the European classical tradition, an “implicit racial ideology,” is, he declares, “insidious” in its “affirmations of Whiteness.”

While White people are chastised for “appropriating” the cultures of non-White groups, the notion they should be allowed to maintain cultural and artistic institutions reserved exclusively for their own racial group is considered anathema. The Vienna Philharmonic came under attack in the 1990s for its failure to embrace the new ideological and moral imperatives of increased racial and gender diversity. One commentator condemned the orchestra for “its consistently racist and sexist hiring practices,” dismissing as “clearly absurd” claims made by representatives of the orchestra that it performs an essentially European art-form and thus should be composed of White men. Dieter Flury, a flutist for the orchestra, opined at the time that:

From the beginning we have spoken of the special Viennese qualities, of the way music is made here. The way we make music here is not only a technical ability, but also something that has a lot to do with the soul. The soul does not let itself be separated from the cultural roots that we have here in central Europe. And it also doesn’t allow itself to be separated from gender. So if one thinks that the world should function by quota regulations, then it is naturally irritating that we are a group of white skinned male musicians that perform exclusively the music of white skinned male composers. … If one establishes superficial egalitarianism, one will lose something very significant. … [S]omething produced by a superficial understanding of human rights would not have the same standards.

Music writer Stefan Aune insists the European domination of classical music cannot be attributed to advantageous genetic endowments possessed on average by White people, and has “no patience for individuals or institutions harboring antiquated beliefs about the superiority of White-European performers or composers.” Ignoring all the data proving the existence of significant racial differences, he ascribes such beliefs to “racism and a fundamentally incorrect view of musical history.” The European domination of classical music has, he insists, everything to do with “cultural inequalities” and nothing to do with inborn characteristics:

In the last analysis, racial and gender inequalities throughout the history of classical music are a question of access rather than innate ability. Individuals like [mulatto composers] Chevalier de Saint George, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor and George Bridgetower erode the argument that classical music is an exclusively white-European cultural enterprise. They show that individuals from any background can succeed in the western musical tradition, and they also show that the western musical tradition is not nearly as culturally homogeneous as many would argue.

The composers identified here are remembered solely because they were non-White — not because of the excellence of their compositions. Rather than being excluded from the classical repertory because of their music’s relative lack of quality and popularity, Linda Shaver-Gleason believes they are victims of the aforementioned White supremacist conspiracy which has “intentionally suppressed” their music “in the service of a narrative of white — specifically German — cultural supremacy (because, alas, that too is part of Western culture).”

Constructing Beethoven as Black

Even the romantic idea of the composer-genius is regarded as an element of this conspiracy to keep Western classical music a Whites-only field. For Shaver-Gleason, “The conflation of ‘genius’ and ‘white man’ means that no minority will be viewed as a real genius, and hence not a real composer.” Given Beethoven’s status as the archetypal musical genius, it is unsurprising that aggrieved Blacks have, since the early twentieth century, attempted to propagate the myth that Beethoven had some African ancestry. The basis for this spurious claim was the composer’s somewhat swarthy complexion, and the fact a part of his family traced its roots to Flanders, which was for a period under Spanish monarchical rule. Because Spain had a longstanding historical connection to North Africa through the Moors, a degree of blackness supposedly trickled down to the great composer.

The myth was eagerly disseminated by Jamaican “historian” Joel Augustus Rogers (1880–1966) in works like Sex and Race (1941–44), the two-volume World’s Great Men of Color (1946–47), 100 Amazing Facts About the Negro (1934), Five Negro Presidents (1965), and Nature Knows No Color Line (1952). Rogers, whose intellectual rigor was basically nonexistent, claimed that Beethoven — in addition to Thomas Jefferson, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Robert Browning, and several popes, among others — was genealogically African and thus Black. Despite being thoroughly debunked, the myth still lingers in contemporary culture: in 2007 Nadine Gordimer published a short story collection called Beethoven Was One-Sixteenth Black: And Other Stories. The determination, contrary to all evidence, to make Beethoven Black is, of course, a desperate attempt to make the composer and his oeuvre a glorious symbol of Black accomplishment.

Shaver-Gleason warns such efforts are self-defeating, merely serving to treat the Western canon as fundamental and all other styles as deviations from this norm, thus reinforcing “the notion that of classical music as a universal standard and something that everyone should aspire to appreciate.” Trying to make Beethoven Black and desperately scouring the historical records for examples of non-Whites who wrote symphonies is to accept “a white-centric perspective that presents symphonies as the ultimate human achievement in the arts.” Black musicologist Philip Ewell agrees, and advocates “overthrowing the existing structure and building a new one that would accommodate non-white music a priori — no reaching for ‘inclusion’ necessary because non-white composers would already be there.” One Black music writer endorses this stance, and resents that the waltzes of Johann Strauss Jr. are regarded as part of the body of superior classical music, while the music of James Brown — “the Godfather of Soul” — is regarded as mere entertainment.

The East Asian Affinity for Western classical music

Curiously, the alleged White supremacist conspiracy that allegedly prevents Blacks and Browns from succeeding in classical music doesn’t have the same effect on East Asians – the one non-White group that likes performing and listening to classical music. A survey of Asian-Americans aged 18–24 found 14 percent attended a classical concert in the preceding year, more than any other demographic in that age group. Asian attendance rates match or surpass the national average up through the 45–54 age range. The younger the classical music audience gets, the more Asian it becomes.

Unlike non-White groups affronted by claims to the superiority for Western classical music, East Asians are under no illusion about the inferiority of their own musical tradition when compared to European art music. This acknowledgement lies at the heart of why East Asian parents are so enthusiastic for their children to play and appreciate the genre. As Amy Chua acknowledges in her widely publicized (and criticized) Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother:

That’s one of the reasons I insisted [my two daughters] do classical music. I knew that I couldn’t artificially make them feel like poor immigrant kids. … But I could make sure that [they] were deeper and more cultivated than my parents and I were. Classical music was the opposite of decline, the opposite of laziness, vulgarity, and spoiledness. It was a way for my children to achieve something I hadn’t. But it was also a tie-in to the high cultural tradition of my ancestors [Chua is proud to be descended in the direct male line from Chua Wu Neng, Imperial Astronomer to a 17th-century emperor]. … To me, the violin symbolized respect for hierarchy, standards, and expertise. For those who know better and can teach. For those who play better and can inspire. And for parents. It also symbolized history. The Chinese never achieved the heights of Western classical music – there is no Chinese equivalent of Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony – but high traditional music is deeply entwined with Chinese civilization.[3]Amy Chua, Battle Hymn of the Triger Mother (London: Bloomsbury, 2011), 22.

Chua is married to a Jew and recalls her stereotypically Jewish mother-in-law (a “progressive” art critic) being opposed to her grandchildren learning the violin — suggesting they learn Indonesian gamelan percussion instruments as more in keeping with the multicultural zeitgeist of the contemporary West. To back her case, she noted how French composer Claude Debussy had been captivated by gamelan music which helped inspire shimmering impressionistic masterpieces like L’apres midi d’un faun. Chua is distinctly unimpressed with this line of argument:

Personally, I think Debussy was just going through a phase, fetishizing the exotic. The same thing happened to Debussy’s fellow Frenchmen Henri Rousseau and Paul Gauguin who started painting Polynesian natives all the time. A particularly disgusting variation of this phenomenon can be found in modern-day California: men with Yellow Fever, who date only Asian women – sometimes dozens in a row – no matter how ugly or which kind of Asian. For the record, Jed [her husband] did not date any Asian women before me. Maybe the reason I can’t appreciate gamelan music, which I heard when we visited Indonesia in 1992, is that I fetishize difficulty and accomplishment. … Gamelan music is mesmerizing because it is so simple, unstructured, and repetitious. By contrast, Debussy’s brilliant compositions reflect complexity, ambition, ingenuity, design, conscious harmonic exploration — and yes, gamelan influences, at least in some of his works. It’s like the difference between a bamboo hut, which has its charm, and the Palace of Versailles.[4]Ibid., 40-41.
(Amy Chua, Battle Hymn of the Triger Mother (London: Bloomsbury, 2011), 22.)

Debussy first heard Indonesian gamelan music at the Paris Exhibition in 1889 and possibly again at the same event in 1900. In his biography of Debussy, musicologist Stephen Walsh notes that while it’s common to talk about the influence of the gamelan on Debussy’s compositions, it merely accentuated existing aspects of his style: “He did not need the gamelan to teach him pentatony, the whole-tone scale or modalism. They were already part of his language. Insofar as this contact with the oriental musical mind helped release him from the toils of Wagnerism and, worse, the [conservatively-inclined] Conservatoire, the truth is that it did so only in part and quite gradually.”[5]Stephen Walsh, Debussy: A Painter in Sound (London: Knoph Doubleday, 2018) 211.

East Asia has produced countless young technical virtuosos, but their nimble fingers and admirable work ethics are often not matched by the emotional depth required for the successful interpretation of nineteenth-century Romantic repertoire. Chinese film director, and classical music fan, Chen Kaige, hopes Western classical music can educate an intensely materialistic and collectivist Chinese people in spirituality and individualism. “One of the biggest differences between Chinese and Western culture,” he points out, “is that we don’t have religion. We don’t worship anything. Western classical music has elements of love and forgiveness that come from religion. Chinese music is very intellectual, very exotic, but there is no love. You don’t feel warm after you listen to it.”

Appreciation of Classical Music Correlated with Intelligence

The East Asian affinity with Western classical music is perhaps not surprising given that appreciation of the genre has been correlated with higher intelligence. Evolutionary psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa posits that more intelligent people populate concert halls because they’re more likely to respond to purely instrumental works. By contrast, people across the intelligence spectrum seem to enjoy vocal music. Kanazawa’s Savanna-IQ Interaction Hypothesis predicts highly intelligent people are more likely to adopt evolutionarily novel preferences and values. According to this theory, they are better able to comprehend, and thus enjoy, novel stimuli. Vocal music predated sonatas by many millennia, so, in evolutionary terms, purely instrumental music is a novelty — which, according to Kanazawa’s theory, means highly intelligent people are more likely to appreciate and enjoy it.

Studies support Kanazawa’s theory, finding clear preferences for instrumental musical genres among those who score higher on intelligence tests. Controlling for age, race, sex, education, family income, religion, current and past marital status and number of children, more intelligent people are more likely to prefer instrumental music than less-intelligent people. A 2019 Croatian study confirmed these findings, showing that people with lower intelligence preferred music with lyrics, rather than complex orchestrations. 467 teenagers performed a non-verbal intelligence test and were then asked to rank musical genres in order or preference. Those who recorded the highest IQ scores displayed a clear preference for instrumental music. On the other extreme, preference for rap music is significantly negatively correlated with intelligence.

The Savanna-IQ Interaction Hypothesis helps to explain why Black people (as a low-IQ group) are generally repulsed by classical music, and why it has been used successfully as a crime prevention mechanism in racially-diverse cities around the world. Neurologists note that certain types of music work as a crime deterrent because of people’s neurobiological responses to things they don’t enjoy or find unfamiliar. When people hear music they like, it stimulates dopamine production and puts them in a better mood. But when people dislike the music, their brains respond by suppressing dopamine production — souring their mood and making them avoid it.

Conclusion

Mass non-White immigration into Western nations has ensured that, for a growing percentage of their populations, classical music holds little or no appeal. Classical music audiences in the United States and other Western nations are contracting: according to a National Endowment for the Arts survey, in the early twenty-first century, the percentage of American adults who attended at least one classical music event dropped from 11.6 to 8.8 in just ten years.

Non-White immigration to the West was always unpopular with existing White populations who were assured it posed no long-term threat to their demographic and cultural dominance. This was always a lie: changing the demographics and culture of the West (in Jewish interests) was the core motivation for these policies. With the Great Replacement now well underway, even White people who enjoy a White art form – like classical music – are regarded by some as engaging in an activity that should make them feel “uncomfortable.” One White commentator, for example, laments that “we don’t seem uncomfortable enough” when “sitting in the concert halls of Europe and America’s cosmopolitan cities in a usually very white audience listening to a usually very white orchestra.”

African-American writer Teju Cole is similarly perplexed that White people who enjoy hearing White musicians playing White music don’t feel more uncomfortable: “It never ceases to surprise me” he notes, “how easy it is to leave the hybridity of the city, and enter into all-white spaces, the homogeneity of which, as far as I can tell, causes no discomfort to the whites in them.”[6]Teju Cole, Open City (New York: Random House, 2011) 252. Jewish music critic Greg Sandow likewise finds offensive that, “in a diverse culture, classical music stands out (on the whole) as strikingly white, and that even many white people, especially younger ones … look at classical music, and feel (whether they put it in words or not, or even if they don’t consciously know they think this) that something isn’t quite right, that this isn’t the country they live in.” The solution to this problem, according to Fred Bronstein, the Jewish former director of the St. Louis Symphony, is for future classical music audiences to be “much more diverse than we can even dream of today. And audiences will only become truly diverse when the performers on our stages are diverse.”

Classical music, like other aspects of Western culture, has been a casualty of the anti-White diversity mania that now infests Western intellectual life. The Cultural Marxist critique of classical music wallows in bad faith arguments and cognitive dissonance: Western classical music is nothing exceptional, yet cannot be invoked to praise White people because this necessarily implies the inferiority of other races; a White supremacist conspiracy thwarts Black and Brown achievement in the genre, but it utterly fails to prevent East Asian interest and success; Black composers have written symphonies (and, indeed, Beethoven himself was Black), yet the Western classical music tradition is inherently White supremacist and needs radical deconstruction.

Ultimately, the reason invoking classical music to laud White people is so keenly resented by anti-White intellectuals is because the gap in civilizational attainment it underscores is an embarrassing affront to regnant egalitarian assumptions. Classical music is one of the crowning glories of Western civilization, and White people have every right to take proud in their race’s achievements in the genre, and to cite these achievements as motivation for pro-White activism.

Notes

[1] Raymond Arsenault, The Sound of Freedom: Marian Anderson, the Lincoln Memorial, and the Concert That Awakened America (New York: Bloomsbury, 2009), 81

[2] Ibid., 75.

[3] Amy Chua, Battle Hymn of the Triger Mother (London: Bloomsbury, 2011), 22.

[4] Ibid., 40-41.

[5] Stephen Walsh, Debussy: A Painter in Sound (London: Knoph Doubleday, 2018) 211.

[6] Teju Cole, Open City (New York: Random House, 2011) 252.

(Republished from The Occidental Observer by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Rational says:

    GOD MADE WHITES THE SMARTEST AND BEST LOOKING. SO YES, WHITES ARE SUPREME. ACCEPT IT.

    Thanks, Sir. You make great points and you are obviously so right.

    These Judaists who are attacking classical music and conflating it with “white supremacy” are deranged. Classical music and other white scientific achievements prove beyond a shadow of doubt that whites are indeed the smartest people on earth. And they are the most beautiful people on earth, too. (Except white women who go with blacks).

    Supremacist means somebody inferior (say blacks) pretending to be supreme.

    So whites cannot be supremacists, because they are already supreme.

    So yes, whites are supreme. It is not their fault. God made them that way. Go argue with God.

    Hey Judaists, whites are supreme.

  2. As usual, all the attacks against Whites are launched by Jews, either directly or by proxy. We must simply get away from these people, and their sycophants, by any means necessary.

    • Agree: MAOWASAYALI
    • Replies: @anon
  3. You might have made the further point that it is was only Europeans who rationalized the study of music, starting with Pythagoras and the harmonic series. Although other peoples, most prominently early Chinese civilizations, developed systems of musical notation, it was entirely Europeans, starting even before the Renaissance, who evolved a system of musical notation, complex and complete enough to capture almost every nuance of a musical performance. Mastering this notation requires a level of cognitive ability that severely limits the proportions of non-Whites and non-Asians who can fully appreciate and utilize this invaluable musical tool. No matter what musical tradition is being studied it is ultimately analyzed and understood using European terminology, techniques and notation.

  4. @Jus' Sayin'...

    ” It is ultimately analyzed and understood using European terminology”

    Not “European terminology” rather Italian terminology.

    And naturally you could counter with the statement that Italy is part of Europe, which it is of course, however the societal and cultural aspect of Italian music terminology are destinctly native to Italy, and in particular the “Cantabile” element of Italian music execution, which is native to Italy.
    And for this reason musical notation, musical scores are not, in northern Europe translated to the native lingo, rather are always held in the Italian version, so as to maintain the all-important Italian-like “Cantabile” approach.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne traind US ary vet, and pro jazz artist.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
  5. Wow.

    I hate Rap music and enjoy most Classical.

    I guess I can say I self-identify as a racist white supremacist now. At last… clarity in my life.

    Thanx Unz! 🙂

    Rick

    • Replies: @Republic
    , @johan
    , @AnonFromTN
  6. @Rational

    racist is another made up word used a lot.
    be proud of yourself.
    we cant be bothered by these stone age fools as they are dragged into the 2oth century kicking and screaming all the way along.
    classical music drives away the street gangs when played at the corner store.

    • Replies: @Glock45
  7. @Authenticjazzman

    I disagree. So, I think, would Bach, http://iment.com/maida/familytree/henry/music/bachnotation.htm. Furthermore, the introduction of the well-tempered scale, by the same German, fundamentally changed the mapping of musical notation to frequency/tone/musical sound and hence the interpretation of Western musical notation.

    • Replies: @Parisian Guy
  8. Anon[380] • Disclaimer says:

    So that’s why rock music is “no longer relevant” in the world of garbage “pop” music and why garbage rap and garbage hip-hop have taken over–rock is “too white”! (ever mind rock’s greatest guitarist, Jimi Hendrix, was black).

    Folks, if it is white it will disappear (not really, but will just “narrative” that way). Here is the irony–aren’t most Jews (that is, Ashkenazim) white? (You know, Ashkenaz was the son of Gomer, son of Japheth, the so-called founder of the white race…supposedly. Why? Because most Jews stem from a line of Ashkenaz known as the Khazars. Eran ElHaik, Israeli geneticist and Shlomo Sand, Israeli historian, and Jewish writer Arthur Koestler, pretty much proved that one! Anti-semitic? And most Jews aren’t even Semites!)

  9. Anonymous[182] • Disclaimer says:

    The Wakanda Symphony Orchestra in Diversity Hall welcomes Beethoven back to his 1/16 homeland!

    Meanwhile, an article about someone white who tries to play music in Ghana and is just not succeeding because it’s not really music, it’s comms. It seems that sub-saharans are differently wired. If that’s the case, there is no common concept of “music” except similar syntax and the fact that it is perceived through the ears. We are talking about different things!

    http://nautil.us/issue/30/identity/drums-lies-and-audiotape

    But I couldn’t. Standing there in front of the assembled royals, the truth slowly dawned on me: The rhythms I was supposed to play in public in Aburi were not the same as the ones that Obeng had taught me in Toronto, and which he had repeated for Ingrid and me during a brief private lesson just the previous day. Instead, they included swathes of material that were radically different from anything he’d shown us thus far; so different that I couldn’t figure them out, let alone execute them, in the heat of the moment. But no one else seemed willing to admit it.

    By imitating the tones and rhythms of Twi, the Akan can “speak” with their musical instruments—their horns and trumpets, their drums and bells—almost as clearly as they do with their mouths. The atumpan, which produce two distinct pitches, are particularly well suited to this task; but the bommaa can do it, too. That was why the crowd at the palace had been so quiet: They were listening to what the drums had to say. The phenomenon, widespread in both West and Central Africa, is known as surrogate speech. It can add a layer of semantic depth to even the simplest music.

    The bommaa patterns that I was suddenly expected to play in Ghana, however, were in a league of their own. Bits of them weren’t just rhythmically ambiguous; they were rhythmically dysfunctional. A musicologist would say they were ametric, or lacked a clear relationship to any kind of steady pulse whatsoever. But there was definitely some kind of logic to them, because whenever two drummers who actually knew what they were doing took over at the bommaa, they not only managed to play in perfect unison; they also coordinated their entrances and exits against the matrix of the other drummers’ parts with flawless consistency. Clearly, they knew—and heard—something we didn’t.

    Back to listening to Sakuhachi.

    Also:

    [3] Amy Chua, Battle Hymn of the Triger Mother (London: Bloomsbury, 2011), 22.

    That is… Freudian.

    For Anthony Tommasini of The New York Times, Trump’s point, extolling the “richness, history and, indeed, the superiority of Western culture,” was “all too clear and dismaying,”

    We need more dismay. A lot more. Crying NYT reporters, too.

  10. Anonymous[182] • Disclaimer says:

    The myth was eagerly disseminated by Jamaican “historian” Joel Augustus Rogers (1880–1966) in works like Sex and Race (1941–44), the two-volume World’s Great Men of Color (1946–47), 100 Amazing Facts About the Negro (1934), Five Negro Presidents (1965), and Nature Knows No Color Line (1952). Rogers, whose intellectual rigor was basically nonexistent, claimed that Beethoven — in addition to Thomas Jefferson, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Robert Browning, and several popes, among others — was genealogically African and thus Black

    Yeah. When we finally encounter Aliens from Outer Space, someone will try find a black person who once got abducted and got forced to inseminate a alien pseudo-lady, thus leading to DNA transfer and obviously increased superiority.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  11. @Anonymous

    It never ceases to amuse me how they want to make an Affirmative Action American of Beethoven (yeah, right) but never once mention Franz Liszt (probably never heard of him) who actually WAS a quadroon (a kind of prehistoric Prince famously derided by Heinrich Heine 😛 ).

    • Replies: @anon
  12. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    “(ever mind rock’s greatest guitarist, Jimi Hendrix, was black)”

    Never understood why some people (Usually rock fans between 55 and 70) say this about Hendrix, to me all his music sounds like the product of a drug addled negro mind.

  13. anon[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @nokangaroos

    Franz Liszt was a Quadroon. Never hear that one. If by “Quadroon” you mean one/quarter negro, I would like to know where you got that information. He looked completely European, and considered himself to be a Hungarian.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  14. Nona says:
    @Rational

    Yes. Classical music is the highest Octave in this Universe; so much so, that it appeals to other cultures, including Japanese, and Chinese.

    • Replies: @95Theses
  15. Mass immigration pushed by Jews is the signal of war. Classical music is uniquely European and the greatest of all, it’s a fact, so deal with it.

  16. @anon

    The famous “Mohr von Wien” was his maternal grandfather, IIRC.

  17. anon[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Calvin Simms

    We must simply get away from these people,

    No.

    We are where we belong.

    They must get away from us.

    • Replies: @Realist
    , @Calvin Simms
  18. @anonymous

    Yes. I meself have enjoyed Roy Clark Glen Campbell , Rory Gallagher, Terry Kath , Van Halen,John MacLaughlin and a bunch more killer guitarists. I would probably say Gallagher is the best, but-!wait,Clapton! Who knows but there’s a lot of good ones!

    • Replies: @Cassowary
  19. @nokangaroos

    … the one the Habsburgs had taxidermied after his death as a curio (I mean, not Liszt 😛 ); it´s one of the less savoury little stories 😉

  20. Realist says:

    Without a doubt classical music is the most cerebral of all music. Literature and science of western civilization are peerless and all are the domain of White culture.

  21. Realist says:
    @anon

    That is correct….you stole my comment.

  22. What a great article! Such a delightful punch in the face of post modernism (PM)
    Like PM itself, criticism of classical music on the grounds of its undoubted “whiteness” is an exercise in the ugliest kind of resentment. Here we have a massive edifice of the highest cultural expression & it’s attacked on the absurd ground that it’s practitioners were of a particular race/enthnicity. Racism, of course, but entirely acceptable because it’s white Europeans being done down.
    Funny how women have never (per se) had a problem with classical music — look at the average orchestra, 50% or more women for years now.
    Of course, it’s classical music’s obvious greatness that provokes such resentment. It’s just “not fair” that white men did all that!
    The sad thing, is that by repudiating any kind of qualitative cultural hierarchy, critics can’t (unhypocritically) give due weight to the (basically) black genres of jazz, blues & gospel. No, they are not as great as classical, but they (esp’ jazz) certainly can be complex, sophisticated forms of music.

    • Agree: 95Theses
  23. the other shoe to drop will be condemnation of LANGUAGE – but not just English.

    Black, dark, demonic, devil

    White, light, angelic, heavenly…

    You get the idea… But the idea of black and dark with demonic and devils crosses cultural lines across time. It’s not just English that identifies BLACK AND DARK as the opposite of WHITE LIGHT AND ANGELIC.

    This page from an online thesaurus gently addresses the difference between black and white.

    https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/dark?s=t

    https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/prince%20of%20darkness?s=t

  24. Realist says:
    @anonymous

    Never understood why some people (Usually rock fans between 55 and 70) say this about Hendrix, to me all his music sounds like the product of a drug addled negro mind.

    Perhaps that’s because Hendrix was a drug addled negro.

    • Replies: @Mr. Wales
  25. When I hear rap being played, all I can think is, “the primitives are grunting again.”

    • Agree: turtle
    • Replies: @95Theses
    , @Republic
  26. @animalogic

    Ah, but there is no escape 😛

    Take the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra; their home, the Musikvereinssaal, is the oldest modern concert hall in the world, specifically designed with acoustics in mind. To even apply for them you already have to be a member of the Staatsopernorchester, not a mean feat by itself; the best of the already select constituted themselves as a private (male) club dedicated to the highest quality, and for well over a century no one batted an eye at them being “too male”. Mind you, whenever they were short an instrument they borrowed it from their home orchestra (there are no males playing the harp, mostly) so the dames were already performing but not formally members …

    … until someone (definitely not the dames in question) found this state of affairs “unbearable”.

    – To their credit, they seem not to have compromised on quality.
    (Their New Year´s Concerto is an institution, and broadcast far and wide. Enjoy 😀 )

    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  27. 95Theses says:
    @Realist

    Yes, yes, YES!

    Something else which also happens to be the case is that in the fields of Science and the Arts is this: not only are these the domain of White Western Civilization, they are also dominated by men.

    [Charles Murray’s] Human Accomplishment sheds fascinating light on identity-politics issues. Women, for instance, account for merely 2 percent of the 4,002 personages. They are strongest in Japanese literature, with 8 percent of the significant names, including the third-ranked Japanese writer, Lady Murasaki Shikibu, author of the thousand-year-old proto-novel The Tale of Genji. Women are particularly insignificant in composing classical music (0.2 percent) and inventing technology (0.0 percent). Is this changing much? Murray unofficially glanced at who “flourished” after 1950 (depressingly to me, he assumes careers peak at age 40) and found female accomplishment to be up sharply only in literature. In fact, the percentage of Nobel Prizes won by women fell from 4 percent in the first half of the 20th century to 3 percent in the second.

    — Steve Sailer, 2003, November 17

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cultures-bell-curve/


    • Replies: @Realist
    , @contrapunctus
  28. Realist says:
    @95Theses

    So we are racist, sexist….and to me Realist

    • Replies: @95Theses
  29. Of course, here in Seattle the Seattle Symphony is being taken over by east Asian and Russian players. And white women.

    It’s not quite to the point that white males need not apply, but getting there.

    For years, there was a black tympani player. Now there is a cute black woman cello player.

  30. 95Theses says:
    @Non PC Infidel

    Whenever I hear rap “music” my thoughts are along the lines of, “I’d rather be cleaning out dog kennels.”

  31. Classical music used to be adored by the lower classes. They followed it like they now do sports. They knew all the players and could comment on and compare different performances. They regularly filled the Heavens, the cheap upper balcony seats, to bursting, looking forward to new compositions, while still appreciating the old warhorses. And they were of a wide variety of nationalities if not races.

    Then, classical music didn’t need government support. It was like rock music.

    Then marketers turned it into an upper class thing. More money, I guess. Who knows how or why. They co-opt everything eventually. Now it’s just a wheezing government-supported museum exhibit. Just like jazz. I wonder if Miles Davis and Charlie Parker were hired by the CIA to alienate common people from jazz, just like they underwrote the abstract expressionists. Or David Bowie and Queen.

    And so, as with all arguments on here, it’s not about race. It’s about class.

  32. This is a highly ideologized & unfair text. Most ethnic Jews enjoy classical/concert music & it could be said the contrary: the best 20th C violin virtuosi have been overwhelmingly Jewish (Heifetz, Menuhin, Milstein, Stern, …). Also, although on a much smaller scale, there were great black opera singers (Marian Anderson, Leontyne Price,..).

    The author seems, well, eager to demonize blacks & Jews even in that department. He could have done better: expose anti- cultural, anti-white rhetoric of race peddlers, demagogues, crackpots & all anti-white racists. Instead, he denounces the entire ethnies & races.

    All I can say at the end is: sad! And depart with the melodious Mongol throat “singing”….

  33. SafeNow says:

    “Banging a stick on a hollow log” music reminded me of a phrase I heard to describe current rap music: “Boots drying in a clothes dryer” music. When I was in high school during the 60’s, a magnificent rock, folk, or other pop song would be released every week. I thought this would go on forever. I was wrong. It stopped. Historians and sociologists ask, How do you know when you are living in a dark age?

    • Replies: @turtle
    , @foolisholdman
  34. It is tho, just accept the compliment.

    Just because we think of everyone as being just like us, even our pets, doesn’t mean we should feel bad about how high of regard they hold us.

    Different races have different consciousness is all.

    Theirs is one of in-group/out-group ours is one of individuality and merit.

  35. turtle says:
    @SafeNow

    “Rap” is not music.
    Music, by definition, is required to have a) rhythm and b) melody.
    “Rap” has neither.
    “Boots drying in a clothes dryer” is a charitable description.
    Niggers* screaming obscenities” would be more accurate.

    *There are decent black folks, and there are niggers.
    There are decent Spanish speaking people, and there are worthless cholos.
    There are decent white folks, and there is white trash.
    There are decent Jewish people, and there are obnoxious kikes.
    etc.
    Verstehe?

  36. Judge the quality of the music by the likelihood of an Uzi drive-by after the show.

    • LOL: nokangaroos
    • Replies: @95Theses
  37. Here, yall, have a look at a couple of White Jungle-Drummers who just didn’t know any better, their deal was Big Band Music:

    Note the simple kits they have as opposed to the ridiculous kits the so-called Black modern greats sit behind.

    https://youtu.be/cwwm4yvYCoc

  38. @Rational

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

    Orwell 1984

    It’s almost over and the Jews have just about won…and most people are playing with their phones mentally masturbating.

  39. I’m interested in the genre known as “world music,” and some of it is worthwhile, even fascinating.

    But.

    Western classical music is absolutely supreme among the arts in ingenuity, emotional depth, and spiritual striving. Nothing else in the realm of creativity speaks so clearly of how close we mere mortals can approach divine Reality.

    Tyrants hate anything that they imagine competes with their claims to supremacy. Ask Shostakovich.

    The primitives out to destroy classical music are at war with the good, the true, and the beautiful.

    They must not be allowed their triumph of the animalistic over the human.

    • Agree: turtle
    • Troll: vinteuil
    • Replies: @95Theses
    , @annamaria
  40. Biff says:

    In my dumb ass opinion that nobody cares about music must have cadence(to fall). The resolution of the tri-tone, usually but not always, inside the dominant V7 chord(I use the flat five substitute a lot with the root resolving down one half step to the root of the Tonic chord). It can resolve outward by half steps or inward.
    Classical music is loaded with cadence, which gives it emotion and feeling.

    Movement is also a must. A lot of classical music moves in fifths, and is why(being invented in that era) the circles of fifths moves in that direction(I V7 ii vi) However, in today’s popular music a lot of the movement is in fourths(I vi ii V7 I). Just flip that circle around and jam on.

    Western music owes its biggest debt of gratitude to Johan Sebastian Bach. He introduced the tri-tone into the V chord, and standardized A440 tuning, among other outstanding achievements(the horny bastardized had twenty kids – some of which produced great musical works). The death of Bach(1750) ended the Baroque era, succeeding to the Classical era(1750-1820, Mozart, Beethoven). Followed by the Romantic era(1820-1900 Schubert, Chopin). To modern era – Stravinsky baby!

    Of contemporary musicians nobody performed movement and cadence better that Jimi Hendrix, and hats off to his Father who encouraged him and his gift.

    Rap music has neither cadence or movement and sucks monumentous ass. Boots in the dryer says it best.

    Hope that helps.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    , @95Theses
    , @Skeptikal
  41. Anonymous[345] • Disclaimer says:

    The article was spoiled by references to Amy Chua and the guy who said he hoped classical music would help educate the Chinese in the ways of spirituality. What nonsense!

    By the way, as an Asian I agree with the author that there’s nothing close to Western classical music. However, Western religion and philosophy are stinkers. The Indians and Chinese beat Europeans by spades.

    And self-identifying as “white” is what’s wrong with the whole “white” thing. It’s very regressive and primordial. Try identifying as an ethnicity instead.

  42. Anonymous[712] • Disclaimer says:

    Beethoven himself was Black

    (⊙_◎)

    Readeth thou this, Brenton:

  43. Mr. Wales says:
    @Realist

    Don’t go there. That drug addled negro was a guitar legend. Hendrix was an incredible musician. It’s one of the few spheres in America where whites and blacks not only learn from and copy each other, but thrive together.

    Blacks in America should be acknowledged for their musical contribution. To argue otherwise would prove you an ignorant fool.

    • Agree: MarkU
  44. If you still are so racist as not to believe that all races and all cultures and thus all forms of music are EQUAL, watch this video about the Aboriginal didgeridoo and mend your ways : https://youtu.be/Vyf7hxVpI-Y

  45. Anonymous[407] • Disclaimer says:
    @obwandiyag

    ‘Classical music used to be adored by the lower classes. They followed it like they now do sports’

    Opera. They used to follow Opera. Different from classical/chamber music. High culture comes from low culture.

    You are an absoloute moron.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  46. Anonymous[407] • Disclaimer says:
    @obwandiyag

    ‘And so, as with all arguments on here, it’s not about race. It’s about class’

    If one race is always found in the bottom strata of society in every place and time period where it was present what does that tell us about them?

    Where are all the the black civilisations?

    They never even invented the wheel.

    Social class my a*s

    • Replies: @WSG
  47. Anonymous[407] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    ‘virtuosi’

    Such people are only (albeit talented) imitators. Something which Jews have been accused of along with a lack of originality. Come back to me when they are anything but second rate composers.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  48. ‘The author seems, well, eager to demonize blacks & Jews even in that department’

    What a shame that Jews and blacks are eager to demonise Whites and their own indigenous music. If Jews want their own classical music they can jolly well invent it. Whites do not owe it to anyone to let them into institutions they founded dedicated to their own genre of music. Ditto for blacks.

  49. Alfred says:

    I think it is hilarious to read what Jewish music critics and newspapers have to say on this subject. A clear case of cognitive dissonance.

    It is no secret that many Jewish people are good at performing classical music and that they are over-represented in the audiences. 🙂

  50. tamo says:
    @Rational

    “Superior” european classical music or not, euro- whites are the stupidest MFs in the world because they are well on their way to committing racial suicide. That surely is not a sign of a smart people but of morons, LOL !!!

    • Replies: @WSG
    , @White Monkey
    , @Richard B
  51. More than 70% of (c)rap “music” buyers are white. I wouldn’t even get if more blacks were buying it, because this is a pointless vulgar noise. Platters & others seem to have belonged to a different universe….

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Skeptikal
  52. Seraphim says:

    It is interesting that it had to be the Chinese who recognized that classical music has ‘elements that come from religion’. Classical music is a product of the Helleno-Latin Christian civilization, not particularly of the ‘Whites’ (code name for the ‘Nordic’ peoples). It stems from the sacred chant of the Church and was a form of worship.

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  53. Wagner told the Jew, Mendelsoln to stop trying to write German music.

  54. Alexander Pushkin, the greatest Russian poet of all times, was of African origin. I think he may even have ascribed his proclivity for bedding other people’s wives and duelling to his fiery African temperament, which finally cost him his life.

  55. Once again the question is raised: Why should Jews ever be allowed in the West?

  56. @Bardon Kaldian

    So Jews are genetically predisposed to fiddling – good to know but hardly news 😛

    And you forgot Grace Bumbry, the most perfect Carmen of them all.

    – It is well never to forget the fine distinction between “rule” and “law” – of COURSE there are always exceptions (if this is what you meant 😀 )

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @Emslander
  57. @obwandiyag

    If I want “class”, I prefer metal. A bit jewish, a bit homo, but reasonably White, male and prole enough. And it also repels undesirables (which I think is the drift of the article 😛 ).

    • Replies: @White Guy In Japan
  58. @Jus' Sayin'...

    Some 30 years ago I asked the late Prof. Bob Dart, who it was that had invented the Western Musical notation and he replied that it was the grammarians of Alexandria in the 5th Century. Along, IIRC with the full stop, the comma and the other punctuation marks. Oh, and the space between words.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  59. vinteuil says:
    @obwandiyag

    Classical music used to be adored by the lower classes. They followed it like they now do sports. They knew all the players and could comment on and compare different performances. They regularly filled the Heavens, the cheap upper balcony seats, to bursting, looking forward to new compositions, while still appreciating the old warhorses. And they were of a wide variety of nationalities if not races.

    Then, classical music didn’t need government support. It was like rock music.

    Then marketers turned it into an upper class thing. More money, I guess. Who knows how or why. They co-opt everything eventually. Now it’s just a wheezing government-supported museum exhibit.

    Wow – obwandiyag says something that’s mostly true.

  60. @obwandiyag

    Interesting post. True too. And as in Science, technology, music and graphic art, women’s contributions are regularly downplayed or ignored by male writers and critics. I am not saying that there are as many or as good female scientists, artists and composers as male ones, but merely that there are more than one would think reading about them.

  61. vinteuil says:

    Bruckner’s sonic cathedrals

    (posted, by me, on YouTube, ten years ago)

    • Replies: @Vegan Shark
  62. @SafeNow

    Had you been born a few years earlier, you would have recognised the period you were in high school, as a sudden new wave of pop music that was interesting. The period I grew up in WW2 and the early 50s is characterised in my memory by extremely dull pop.

    • Replies: @Biff
  63. In California, some 200 schools now offer dinner. The sluggish races whose kids White Man is forced to feed might want to shut their yaps about Bach.

  64. Beibdnn says:

    It would appear from the comments of people critical of European Classical Music and of it’s artists and audiences that there is a new type of Intellectual.
    First there came the intellectual.
    Then came the Psuedo Intellectual
    And now at the dawn of multiculturalism, we have the :
    Ersatz Intellectual.
    My late mother was a solo pianist for one of the great London orchestras, regrettably although I should remember I am not certain and don’t wish to make a false claim as to which one.
    I remember her telling me of the years of training, study and practicing she had to do to attain the necessary skill and perception to be able to play the great composers.
    These people who make “ white racism “ comments really have no understanding of the depth of the human spirit.

    • Agree: Alfred
  65. @foolisholdman

    Correction! Not 30 years ago! More like 50.

  66. nickels says:
    @Jim Christian

    When is comes to drums white boy Havin Harrison is king:

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @John G.
  67. Truth3 says:
    @anonymous

    Rock’ greatest Guitarist?

    Long line in the candidates for that one…

    Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Frank Marino, etc. Could name 100+ more.

    But for instrumental (all forms of music) outstanding virtuosity on guitar, hard to beat George Benson.

  68. Parfois1 says:

    If I ever had any doubts about my European pedigree, now I’m absolutely sure of it, apart from the Neanderthal bits: I can’t stand any other musical genre but the classics, although in my younger years I tolerated pop as it was de rigueur to listen to Beatles, Bee Gees and Co.

    Life would be a dreadful hell on earth without classical music to bring harmony to a chaotic world and I am most grateful to the great geniuses who enriched my life. Whenever pain hurts I find solace with Beethoven’s Pastoral and peace returns with joy for being mingled with nature. Am I racist?

  69. @Anonymous

    By the way, as an Asian I agree with the author that there’s nothing close to Western classical music. However, Western religion and philosophy are stinkers. The Indians and Chinese beat Europeans by spades.

    I wouldn’t agree & this is not just a subjective opinion. As for religion, things are a bit messy: what is Western religion? It includes Greco-Roman heritage & Christianity, though some-many?- would include also the Egyptian & Persians (I wouldn’t, just….).

    I don’t see them inferior as cultural matrices: what greater Asia (China, India, Japan, Islam,…) has to offer in comparison with Rouen cathedral, the Parthenon, Michelangelo, Duerer, Bach, Dante, Milton, Beethoven, Dostoevsky, Rembrandt, El Greco, ..(I am talking only about religion inspired works)? Western spiritual tradition is certainly more conductive to monumental & dominant works in all arts.

    In philosophy, both Indian & Chinese traditions are much weaker if we follow the entire Western tradition from Thales, Pythagoras, Democritus, Plato, Plotinus, Epictetus, Augustine, Aquinas, Leibniz, Descartes, Holbach, Hegel, Marx, James, Nietzsche, Comte, Spengler, Jaspers, … We got here epistemology, ethics, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, proto-scientific philosophies (economy, psychology, politics, …), materialism & idealism, …

    With India & China- well, they don’t have one crucial idea: progress. Then, add individualism. Then…

  70. Biff says:
    @foolisholdman

    The period I grew up in WW2 and the early 50s is characterised in my memory by extremely dull pop.

    Eddie Cochran is not dull pop. By 1959, everything you needed for a Rock/Blues band was already invented making the 1950’s musically historic – throw in the musicians of the sixties, and the rest is history.

  71. Emslander says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Spectacular rejoinder to racist and anti Jewish conclusions this article forces. Classical music is wonderful, except when it’s not, same as any product of any culture. I can’t define quality, but I know it when I hear it.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  72. @Anonymous

    Well, they are a small people & you can’t expect them to be at the forefront of so many areas. For instance, Mahler, Milhaud & Schoenberg are not something negligible.

    But, this is not the point.

    The author claimed that “Jews” were trying to subvert or destroy or couldn’t understand …. Western classical/concert music. Having in mind they are so well established among violinists & pianists – that contention looks patently absurd.

  73. @Commentator Mike

    “…Abramovich Gannibal’s father, Pushkin’s great-grandfather, was Abram Petrovich Gannibal (1696–1781), an African page kidnapped to Constantinople as a gift to the Ottoman Sultan and later transferred to Russia as a gift for Peter the Great…”

    Source: Wikipedia, Alexander Pushkin.

    That would make Pushkin 1/8 black or an octoroon. If we would ascribe his talent to his genetic heritage, what would be more prominent : 1/8 or 7/8 ?

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  74. Music is there to express human emotions.And all glory belongs to Verdi.
    And Octavia was established by Greeks

  75. Biff says:

    I IV V Rock is one of the simplest progressions, but in the right hands it can produce endless amounts of tension and resolution(cadence).

    • Replies: @turtle
  76. Republic says:
    @Rick Costello

    In the future 1984 torture cells will feature rap music and speeches by Obama with CNN playing in the background

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  77. TropBlanc says:

    The entire “classical music is racist” nonsense is just part of the ongoing anti-white anti-Christian smear by Jews in media and academia: if it’s a white accomplishment, it must be destroyed. Except, of course, where it suits their purpose, consequently Wagner is decried and boycotted because of his alleged anti-semitism, but Bach (an arch Lutheran!) is dutifully recorded by every Jew in classical music.

    As for blacks, I think they have plenty to be proud about with their invention of jazz. Miles Davis was certainly no slouch, though I don’t think he is fully appreciated by the black community.

    Amy Chua’s comments on Yellow Fever, or fetishizing the exotic, goes both ways. During time I spent in San Francisco I found the Chinese to be surprisingly racist in a pro-white anti-Asian way, as a rule Chinese women seemed to have a clear preference for white men.

    For decades now they have declared the death of the novel, the theatre, and God, but they’re still here and thriving. Anyone who thinks classical music is on the decline hasn’t tried to get tickets to the LA Opera or a classical concert at the Hollywood Bowl. In thirty years of attending classical guitar concerts in LA and San Francisco every single event was standing room only.

    • Replies: @tamo
  78. Republic says:
    @Non PC Infidel

    That is why in many US subway/Metro systems classical music is played to keep the feral Blacks quiet

  79. @nokangaroos

    I didn’t forget her, I just wasn’t writing an encyclopedic comment. Now, a salute to great Grace:

  80. Seraphim says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Actually, Pushkin was the cuckold and his killer the womanizer.

  81. @Franklin Ryckaert

    Yes I agree. It’s just that I read somewhere long ago that he himself may have mentioned this but I don’t have the reference. Maybe the other aristocrats were also shagging each other’s wives, and anyway he died in a duel challenging a bloke he thought was having it off with his wife.

    And Alexander Dumas, another European of African origin, wasn’t bad with words either, though word is that he mostly employed ghost writers while he spent his time enjoying high society.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  82. @Bardon Kaldian

    Indian philosophy is mostly about salvation (i.e. liberation from the wheel of birth-and-death). As such it has no equivalent in Western philosophy.

    Chinese philosophy is mostly about harmony. Harmony with society in Confucianism and harmony with nature in Taoism.

    Arabic and Jewish (medieval) philosophy is mostly borrowed Greek philosophy to solve the problem which is more authoritative : reason or faith. For both the latter won out and both cultures remained mired in religious authoritarianism.

    Western philosophy is the attempt to understand the world (and man) by reason, but never to transcend the world (and the human condition) such as in Indian philosophy.

    For a good comparison, see : P.T. Raju, Introduction to Comparative Philosophy.

  83. Agent76 says:

    MAY 26, 2019 Reconstruction and Jim Crow Laws

    Historian Henry Louis Gates talked about Reconstruction, which lasted from the end of the Civil War until 1877, the amendments passed during this time to promote equality for African Americans, and thesubsequent Jim Crow laws and other measures used in southern states to re-establish white supremacy.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?460492-2/reconstruction-jim-crow-laws

    J.S. Bach – Prelude in C Major

  84. But come on man, how can Western classical music compare to this:

  85. Vojkan says:

    Classical music is indeed the white European Christian thing par excellence. As such, it is logical that it’ll be a prime target for all the haters of the white European Christian civilisation.
    I love classical music, I listen to it as much as I can, an hour and a half on average daily, and I am totally unapolegetic about it. I consider it to be the purest form of Art. Not only do I listen to it but when I sit at my digital piano, the sounds that come naturally under my fingers are classical sounds. I love to listen to jazz too, though less often, but I don’t have a jazz intuition, I have a classical intuition.
    As for the preference for instrumental vs vocal as indicative of higher or lower IQ, I beg to disagree. Listening to Rachmaninov’s Vespers just can’t be put on the same plane as listening to the nasal moans and groans of modern pop starlets that more befit brothels than concert halls.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  86. It is obvious that Europe has had the lead in music. It started with the school of Notre dame (Leonin, Perotin) and culminated 5 centuries later with J. S. Bach as claims Andras Schiff. This music is really the expression of a christian soul. Afterwards the european music starts dwindling by becoming court’s music then romantic, then at the end of the nineteenth century, non-sense.

    Painting has followed a similar course but its apogee came earlier as again Andras Schiff claims.

    In both cases the driving strength has been the faith afterwards, the composers and painters became courtisans, then later having lost faith, they became sick people.

    The strength of Europe has been its christian faith and the success of Europe was due to the faith of its people. The same is true for the muslim world if instead of music and painting, one is looking at architecture, garden, science and medecine.

    China, India and Japan also should not be forgotten.

    Europe has excelled in music, painting, but it does not mean that the european’s elite was superior to the chinese, indian or arab elite. All those elites were strong when they were moved by faith and the search of the truth and not when living in lies and lust, they adore the golden calph .

  87. Alfred says:
    @Seraphim

    Classical music is a product of the Helleno-Latin Christian civilization

    I am most grateful that you did not bring out that “Judeo-Christian” absurdity.

  88. I wonder if Louis Farrakhan has an opinion about all of this, being an accomplished classical violinist himself.

  89. @Jim Christian

    If you’re going to throw up some drum off’s, allow me to post up some of the classics:

    [MORE]

    For a great combination of skill and showmanship, Steve Moore is the guy:

    The most complete drummer I’ve found is Thomas Lang:

    For those into Japanese children’s anthem/speed metal fusion, I’ll leave this here:

    And by the way, Buddy Rich was Jewish.

  90. Seraphim says:
    @Commentator Mike

    The irony in all that hunt for the octoroons is that the papa of the racial theories, the uncertain ‘comte’ claiming a descendance from the conquerors of Normandy, Arthur de Gobineau, was very likely himself one!

  91. Mulegino1 says:

    Only a superior culture and spirituality could cultivate something like this:

    When deprived of its Euro-Christian roots and left to Jewry, “serious” music becomes kitsch or ugliness.

    • Replies: @contrapunctus
  92. Laughing. Whoa!

    I think it’s a tad myopic to contend white skin produces the most beautiful and intelligent people by myopia.

    One has to consider the following

    high art

    Debbie Does Dallas

    Let’s Just Get Drunk and . . .

    Hustler Magaizine

    Intelligence

    nuclear weapons

    chemical weapons

    immigration policy

    health care

    financial ingenuity financial crisis bankrupting the country 2008 is plenty of white genius

    what white genius thought it would helpful not to ensure a captive well educated slave population

    ohhh good grief most people don’t look like the celebrities we ogle. Since I am not very good looking I feel a tad bad about the following — as looks are no descriptor of character though many of us think so. And despite my temptation, I won’t post photos of whites that might be considered unattractive. Let’s just say whites as beautiful requires some serious blinders.

  93. @Vojkan

    I like classical music, too, but I must admit- I’m unapologetic barbarian. My ideas of good music time are, not exclusively, these ….

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Vojkan
    , @Anonymous
  94. vinteuil says:
    @Biff

    Hope that helps.

    You should have stopped at:

    In my dumb ass opinion that nobody cares about…

  95. @vinteuil

    Vinteuil, did you take your screen name from the composer whose musical phrase captivated Swann in Proust’s In Search of Lost Time?

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  96. @Commentator Mike

    Pushkin’s grandmother from father side was a black women. That’s all. Pushkin was part of Russian nobility.

  97. Vojkan says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Citing Menuhin and not citing Oistrakh, hmm…
    Perhaps there are so many Jews among the best performers of classical music because perhaps only the Jews could afford the best instruments. A Stradivari, a Guarneri, an Amati cost a lot, lot of money. And they just sound different than “low-cost” violins. Likewise, a Bösendorfer or a Steinway or a Bechstein not only sound completely different than “low-cost” pianos, they also sound different between them. Just as you don’t become a Formula One pilot driving a Lada, you don’t become a classical music virtuoso playing a low-cost imperfectly tuned instrument. Every note just has to be perfectly pitch adjusted. And the instrument’s timbre has to match your sensitivity. For instance, though I am far, real far from a virtuoso, I still have a preference for the Bösendorfer’s sound over the Steinway’s sound. To have an instrument that matches you and that is perfectly tuned costs. A lot. Perhaps this explains that.

    • Replies: @tac
    , @Skeptikal
  98. Vojkan says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Different music for different purposes. Some music is made to be experienced collectively. Classical music is like prayer, there can be a whole assembly experiencing it, but the experience to be genuine must be individual.

  99. Dmitry says:

    1. To contribute to classical music is extremely difficult (although to listen is easy), and requires hard work, dedication, talent and discipline – and all this, from a young age.

    2. On the other hand, to write an article which is essentially saying “Look at me, I have white skin – this is my motive for writing the article. And people who contributed to classical music have white skin. Therefore, this music is mine, and not yours (brown and yellow people). Look how special I am and how much I have achieved.”

    Then – “We are also being persecuted by Jews, because an article in NYT criticized classical music (which is my music, even though I cannot play a musical instrument). And even though NYT readers, are probably the main type of people in America who listen to classical music” – is extremely easy, and available to anyone without skill, practice sessions or hard work.

    However, usually, only people without own achievements, will try to boast by association about achievements of other people (famous composers/musicians).

    East Asia has produced countless young technical virtuosos, but their nimble fingers and admirable work ethics are often not matched by the emotional depth required fo

    Even worse, article presents position: “Although we have no musical talent or skill, we have access to classical music because I am white like Beethoven. Whereas for yellow musicians, like Yo-Yo Ma – who are infinitely more talented and musical than I am, it is not there’s. (Because they are yellow).”

    “Even though Yo-Yo Ma knows each note of Brahms’ Sonatas and expresses the music better than any living musician – he cannot access this music because he is Chinese. Whereas this music is my own achievement – I – an alienated American redneck”.

    Kind of article which supports the idea of promoting access to classical music to people of higher cultural level only, – so that we do not develop a bad smell – from association with people who want to convert support for something beautiful and spiritual, into a football game, and into their personal politics, and another conspiracy theory about Jews.

    Actually, here it would be useful to add some quotes from Schopenhauer, that music is the purest representation of the will itself.

    But we also need an explanation, for why – if Schopenhauer was correct – original production of classical music has fallen so past its former pinnacle.

  100. vinteuil says:
    @Vegan Shark

    Vinteuil, did you take your screen name from the composer whose musical phrase captivated Swann in Proust’s In Search of Lost Time?

    No way, no how. I totally deny that. I have never read À la recherche du temps perdu, and I simply can’t stand the violin sonatas of Franck, Saint-Saëns & Fauré.

    • Replies: @Vegan Shark
  101. Half-Jap says:

    This…this when my soul cries.

  102. Sparkon says:

    Over 100 comments now in a thread about Classical Music, and so the pleasure is mine to be the first to mention Austrian composer Franz Josef Haydn, whose output included 104 (107) symphonies, 83 string quartets, 45 piano trios, 62 piano sonatas, 14 masses and 26 operas, among other work.

    Haydn stands at the apex of composers of classical music. No composer I know has ever matched Haydn’s creative output in quality or quantity either one.

    Here his Symphony #39 written at the outset of his so-called “Sturm und Drang” period.

    L’Estro Armonico, dir. Derek Solomons

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @baythoven
  103. tamo says:
    @TropBlanc

    On white man-Asian woman parings, all you have to do is just watch white man-Asian woman couples on the street. If you are honest with yourself , you will come to the conclusion that BY AND LARGE, these WM-AW couples are physically rather UNATTRACTIVE.

    Most of these couples are made of BELOW AVERAGE LOOKING sissy white guys whom no decent looking white women would go out with and equally UNAPPEALING Asian women whom any decent looking Asian men would NOT date. Of course, there are some EXCEPTIONS and so once in awhile you will find good looking WM-AW couples. But they are FEW and FAR BETWEEN. So if I see a decent looking WM-AW couple, then I also see seven or eight UNATTRACTIVE WM-AW couples. On the other hand, I see more and more good looking white women going for BBCs, LOL !!!

  104. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    People in America who listen to classical music and go to classical music concerts (and have classical music lessons for their children), will be significantly correlated with New York Times readers, and even supporters of NYT politics. Whereas the conspiracy theory, is about New York Times being opposed to classical music.

    It’s even absurd on this level – as one of only good things about NYT is how it is promoting classical music.

    Anyway, claim in article about Chinese musicians, is a lighter version of the question whether you have to be Russian, to access Rachmaninov and Scriabin.* Or German to perform Brahms.

    However, historical time is even more determinant in our consciousnessness. Surely a 21st century person would not understand the music of the 19th century? And how could a 19th century person, read Plato?

    It’s absurd, as the whole point about great art (as opposed to local folk music) is that as its quality increases, it becomes increasingly universal by time and place. Because its criteria relates more to quality and complexity – it is universally binding and to some extent becomes “timeless”.

    And with music, above all arts, this is especially the case. Genetically enhanced spacemen in 25rd century, speaking an artificial language with no relation to current languages on earth, will still be streaming Mozart into their brains, if they don’t compose anything better by that era.

    * It’s true to some extent on a linguistic level for Scriabin and Rachmaninov, as they use certain patterns of Russian speech in their melodies. However, a non-Russian pianist, can be easily learn this, by learning a little Russian.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  105. turtle says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    And here is Martha playing some Bach:

  106. Ahoy says:

    @ niteranger

    “It’s almost over and the Jews have just about won…and most people are playing with their phones mentally masturbating”. Powerful. Tip my hat to you, sir.

    On a personal basis, I don’t believe they will cross the finish line. The venerable fathers of this great nation are already getting up from their graves to save their creation from the hands of the barbarians.

    Rubens, Botticelli, El Greco et. al, are indelibly written in the DNA of the white race. Where Andy Warhol and the Campbell soup nobody remembers. Except heavily paid media that are called to support phony artists and scientists.

  107. turtle says:

    My favorite radio station:
    https://www.veniceclassicradio.eu/en/
    No talk, just music.
    Mostly baroque.

    • Agree: Zumbuddi
  108. padre says:

    OK, now I am convinced that we the whites are superior so why don’t we live alone all those inferior non whites, I think they will be quite satisfied!

  109. turtle says:
    @Biff

    in the right hands

    These are the right hands:

  110. Saggy says: • Website

    Wait a minute. I’m a white supremacist along with the best of them. But ignoring the contribution of blacks to music is blockheaded. They have redefined modern music unless you’re a diehard Willie Nelson fan. There is, for example, only one Sarah Vaughn –

    Mahalia … ! …

    Freddie King and my current candidate for the best vid on the internet –

    Coltrane – if all that’s too ‘simple’ … let’s go to the limit…..

    Ray Charles – the High Priest –

  111. @anon

    True, but we must act to make that happen.

  112. THE PENALTY OF LEADERSHIP
    Cadillac ad in 1915

    “In every field of human endeavor, he that is first must perpetually live in the white light of publicity. Whether the leadership be vested in a man or in a manufactured product, emulation and envy are ever at work. In art, in literature, in music, in industry, the reward and the punishment are always the same. The reward is widespread recognition; the punishment, fierce denial and detraction. When a man’s work becomes a standard for the whole world, it also becomes a target for the shafts of the envious few. If his work be mediocre, he will be left severely alone – if he achieves a masterpiece, it will set a million tongues a-wagging. Jealousy does not protrude its forked tongue at the artist who produces a commonplace painting. Whatsoever you write, or paint, or play, or sing, or build, no one will strive to surpass or to slander you unless your work be stamped with the seal of genius. Long, long after a great work or a good work has been done, those who are disappointed or envious, continue to cry out that it cannot be done. Spiteful little voices in the domain of art were raised against our own Whistler as a mount back, long after the big world had acclaimed him its greatest artistic genius. Multitudes flocked to Bayreuth to worship at the musical shrine of Wagner, while the little group of those whom he had dethroned and displaced argued angrily that he was no musician at all. The little world continued to protest that Fulton could never build a steamboat, while the big world flocked to the river banks to see his boat steam by. The leader is assailed because he is a leader, and the effort to equal him is merely added proof of that leadership. Failing to equal or to excel, the follower seeks to depreciate and to destroy – but only confirms once more the superiority of that which he strives to supplant. There is nothing new in this. It is as old as the world and as old as human passions – envy, fear, greed, ambition, and the desire to surpass. And it all avails nothing. If the leader truly leads, he remains – the leader. Master-poet, master-painter, master-workman, each in his turn is assailed, and each holds his laurels through the ages. That which is good or great makes itself known, no matter how loud the clamor of denial. That which deserves to live – lives. “

    Apparently Elvis Presley was a big fan of “The Penalty of Leadership”; so much that he kept a framed copy in his office at Graceland.

    • Agree: Truth3
  113. @Dmitry

    Even without any contribution we were born and grew up, and our soul did become part of our culture. So we have a right to be proud of it. And no Jewish propaganda can take it away from us.

  114. @Dmitry

    You do not understand (or appreciate) how ethnic pride works. It is not claiming the achievements of others as one’s own merely because of ethnic kinship, it is about identifying with one’s own ethnic group, and yes that includes its great men and their achievements. That is normal for all ethnic groups. Without it ethnic groups would not even exist. In this way the masses of an ethnic group (who are by definition uncreative) are inspired by its greatest men and lifted above their own level. So both in creating ethnic identity and by sublimating the masses ethnic pride has a positive function.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Skeptikal
  115. MarkU says:

    Is nothing sacred? does everything have to be about race these days?

    Didn’t we recently read a piece with evidence to suggest that people of European descent are amongst the least ethnocentric people on the planet? That can change, and I am of the opinion that certain groups of people will regret pushing their luck with the anti-white agenda if the trend continues.

  116. vinteuil says:
    @Dmitry

    the whole point about great art (as opposed to local folk music) is that as its quality increases, it becomes increasingly universal by time and place. Because its criteria relates more to quality and complexity – it is universally binding and to some extent becomes “timeless”.

    And with music, above all arts, this is especially the case. Genetically enhanced spacemen in 25rd century, speaking an artificial language with no relation to current languages on earth, will still be streaming Mozart into their brains, if they don’t compose anything better by that era.

    …so now I find myself agreeing with Dmitry, of all people. Go figure.

  117. Dmitry says:
    @turtle

    Jewish women pianists included a lot of supporters of Bach in the 20th century: e.g. Maria Yudina (who makes Stalin cry, although with Mozart not Bach,), Wanda Landowska, Myra Hess, and even (for using more pedal than anyone else) Youra Guller

    Actually there seems a lot of promotion by that demographic (especially Landowska was promoting harpsichord as well).

    • Replies: @turtle
    , @vinteuil
  118. Chinese culture itself is incredibly rich and complex, so it would come as no surprise that a person like Ms. Chua would come to appreciate the richness and complexity of Western culture, in this case classical music.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  119. @Rational

    Well, not all whites are equal. I submit that the Germans are the cream of the crop.
    And Johann Sebastian Bach towers over all other composers.
    That’s why the Jews love to malign him. They claim that the St. John Passion is antisemitic. So what if it is? So what if the NT is antisemitic? Nobody cares except them.

  120. turtle says:

    President Trump gave in Poland in 2017. The speech, praising Western civilization, included the line “we write symphonies.”

    We also write marches.

    (many Americans know this tune with different, English, lyrics)

  121. @turtle

    Pianists should just leave Bach alone. They have no idea how to approach his harpsichord and organ music. Yes, the are many, many, many bad organists who butcher Bach because they started on the piano.
    Listen to Pierre Hantai do it the right way. BTW, he’s actually German. And not Jewish.

    http://allofbach.com/en/bwv/bwv-808/

    • Replies: @turtle
  122. @Mulegino1

    The greatest and the best!
    And yes, Christian spirituality is superior to all, because only it is rooted in Jesus Christ, Messiah, King of the Jews, and King of Kings!

  123. @95Theses

    Ain’t that the truth!
    Women mostly cannot even perform Western classical music correctly. Even in the deepest, darkest or most tender moments in classical music, there is a noble ~masculinity~ that pervades it. And the few women who play it well do so because they are able to project this manliness.

    • Replies: @authenticjazzman
  124. turtle says:
    @Dmitry

    This is also interesting:
    https://www.loc.gov/item/ihas.200156436/

    Johann Sebastian Bach’s stature as a composer of such extraordinary genius and widespread influence is so firmly established in Western culture that it is difficult to imagine that only a little over a century-and-a-half ago, his music and reputation languished in obscurity, virtually unknown to all but a few specialists. It was through Mendelssohn’s recognition of Bach’s genius and his efforts in making Bach’s works accessible to a wider public that these works are today recognized as summits of musical expression.

    And of course, in the 20th century we have all the “early music,” or “authentic performance” groups, e.g. Christopher Hogwood, Neville Mariner, et. al.

    Hooray for the “rescuers.”

    • Agree: 95Theses
    • Replies: @Wally
  125. Half-Jap says:
    @Saggy

    Supremacist is a misnomer, eh?
    We appreciate the great and beautiful, even of the ‘other.’ Hell, blacks are so much more American before being debauched by Eisenhower and following false friends.
    One just does not appreciate or tolerate what seems to be a forced imposition of all sorts of others that can only debase us as a culture, people, and civilization.

  126. turtle says:
    @contrapunctus

    Thanks for the link.
    Very nice.
    Does this version of Bwv 565 meet your approval, or perhaps not?

    • Replies: @contrapunctus
  127. @Anon

    A formerly staunch Identity Christian, my view is now “There’s religion and then there’s the real world”. Ask Alan Dershowitz if he’s white and let us know what he says.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s

  128. turtle says:
    @contrapunctus

    Johann Sebastian Bach towers over all other composers.
    That’s why [some] Jews love to malign him.

    Denigrating your superior is a loser’s strategy, and a poor one at that.
    Sort of like the garage band “lead” guitarist claiming he can do it better than Hendrix (or Clapton, etc., etc.).
    Great ones generally acknowledge greatness in others.

  129. Realist says:
    @Mr. Wales

    That drug addled negro was a guitar legend.

    There are thousands of legends….it means nothing, many aren’t worth a shit.

    To argue otherwise would prove you an ignorant fool.

    So those that disagree with you are fools??? You’re an asshole.

  130. WSG says:
    @Mr. Wales

    I’ll also acknowledge them for destroying our cities, and devolving our entire civilization to their primitive level. To argue otherwise would prove you an ignorant fool.

  131. WSG says:
    @Anonymous

    But…but…but…THEY WUZ KANGS AND SHEEIITT!!!

  132. vinteuil says:
    @Dmitry

    Maria Yudina was Jewish? I didn’t know that.

    Her recording of the Shostakovich 2nd Piano Sonata isn’t bad.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  133. WSG says:
    @tamo

    Sadly, I can’t argue with your logical.

  134. @contrapunctus

    ” Women cannot even perform Western classical music correctly”

    BULLSHIT , You are talking as someone who has no actual experience within the performance aspect of classical music or other musical idioms.

    Having completed four years classical flute performance studies in conservatory : JSB Mozart, Teleman, etc, I am saying to you that your viewpoint is malevolent garbage, basta.
    Add to this my fifty-plus years of pro jazz performance , and I would guess that I may viewmyself as a “Expert” in these fields ( And you as a Dummkopf )

    And regarding your theory of “Noble masculinity” inherent in classical music : this is the craziest shit I have ever heard pertaining to any field of art. Great art stands on it’s own without any added artificial gender elements.

    One could just as well claim that all of the marvelous Baroque churches, which I consider to be the ultimate of artistic manifestation, are an expression of “Feminine” energy.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet, and pro jazz artist.

    • Replies: @Anounder
  135. @turtle

    Thanks for the recommendation. He’s pretty good!

    Some giveaway signs that the organist doesn’t understand Bach
    1. using too many weird registrations to sectionalize the music and give the impression of increasing and decreasing volume
    2. increasing intensity and volume by adding stops and vice versa
    3. playing with a pulse that continually speeds up and slows down to feint expressiveness

    All these distracting artifices are not necessary because the true art is built into his music with metrical feet and clever use of rhetoric!

    You only need good articulation and phrasing, appropriate tempo, and registration that is appropriate (either to make the voice leading clear in heavily contrapuntal pieces, or for a dramatic effect in less complex textures), and of course, common sense and good taste as to the genre of the piece.

    Bach said, “You only need to place your finger on the right key at the right time, and the instrument will play itself.”

    The German organist Hans-Andre Stamm demonstrates very fine Bach organ playing. Few come near to his level of musicality.

  136. @contrapunctus

    ” Germans are the cream of the crop”

    Bach , as all of his German musical compatriots including first off Amadeus Mozart, derived his musical knowledge and aesthetic from the Italian school.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet, and pro jazz artist.

    • Replies: @contrapunctus
    , @Skeptikal
  137. @Saggy

    Amen Bro.

    The melodic excursions/improvisations of one Charlie Parker, or one Dizzy Gillespie, or One Clifford Brown, or one Wes Montgomery most certainly are on the same artistic level as the Baroque masters.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet and pro jazz artist.

    PS regarding my credentials so as to be forwarding such bold statements: having been in fact, decades ago, member of a band of which the drummer had on occasion performed with J Coltrane, T Monk, the (white) Chet Baker , etc.

  138. @turtle

    Thanks. Bagpipes are just awesome! (Except when I try.)
    I was pleasantly surprised that AG Barr plays them.

  139. @authenticjazzman

    … and left them far behind.

    Bach was a great synthesizer. He took the French, Italian and German styles, and elevated them in a way that only he could.

    • Replies: @authenticjazzman
  140. @contrapunctus

    “…Christian spirituality is superior to all, because only it is rooted in Jesus Christ..”

    Typical circular reasoning. Very common in religion BTW.

    • Replies: @contrapunctus
  141. L says:

    For some general edification~Into the universal truth concerning classical music in the tradition

    The first selection written by Dennis Speed, a black man, who is leading spokesman and champion of that work initiated by the discoveries and efforts of Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr. is entitled, “The Classical War Against Multiculturalism” is an extremely important offering that stops all of this race-baiting garbage in its tracks, based upon the universal human truths portrayed in artistic composition, where the work of Anton Dvorak and the recognition of the American Negro Spiritual as a breakthrough in demonstrating the very nature of such truths.

    https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fid_91-96/934_multiculturalism.html

    Some accompanying selections of relevance

    https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fid_97-01/fid_011_spirituals.html

    https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/programs/prog_rpt_warfield_may00.html

  142. @Anonymous

    You are the absolutely absolute moron. Classical, including opera, moron. Just because you make up things in your head doesn’t make you right.

  143. @animalogic

    This, to me, is the highest expression of human feeling of all of Beethoven’s symphonies:

  144. Cogitator says:

    Miles Davis said, “White musicians seem to lag behind the beat.” While he didn’t mind criticizing them, he never thought to thank them for inventing the instrument that he played. Besides their genius in composing, White-Europeans created the finest musical instruments.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  145. Dmitry says:
    @vinteuil

    There is a lot of overrepresentation of Jewish women in piano. I assume, Jewish parents forced piano very heavily on their daughters in that historical era as part of bourgeois ambitions. (For example Yudina was from a bourgeois family, so her parents hired famous piano teachers for her, who were students of Anton Rubinstein.)

    In the 20th century, I know of a lot of very talented Jewess pianists like Maria Grinberg, Roza Tamarkina, Clara Haskil.

    Maria Grinberg – one of the most underrated pianists of the 20th century, including in Bach? (And for the crazy guy above, saying Bach sounds worse on piano).

    • Replies: @turtle
  146. @Franklin Ryckaert

    I hesitate to: a) pontificate about something I know pretty much on, b) write a long & exhausting comment (I’m lazy), c) write on something that is basically OT.

    There is some truth in what you wrote, but these issues are immensely more complex. I would recommend Eliade’s “History of Religious Ideas”, 1-3, as well his other at least 5 works; a good overview, although a bit simplistic in some areas, is Joseph Campbell’s 4-volume magnum opus (generally looked down upon by specialist scholars because they are scholars, while he is, basically, a charismatic scholar-prophet whose mission was to impart wisdom).

    [MORE]

    The Chinese are best covered by Wing Tsit Chan:

    & their spiritual dimensions by many authors, too numerous to address. I’d recommend Charles Luk/Lee Kwan You’s translations & instructions on Ch’an & Taoist teachings (other, practical books are by new-ageish Mantak Chia & Thomas Cleary). Of course, nothing without Joseph Needham’s magnum opus; I would also recommend Nakamura:

    As for India, here is indispensable Dasgupta & many others. A very good text on Eliade & Dasgupta can be found here: http://crossasia-repository.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/149/1/Guggenbuehl_Eliade_DasGupta_Gesamt2.pdf
    Dasgupta dismantles virtually all Indian sacred cows (infallibility of the Vedas, karma, samsara, moksha).

    The best modern works are also written by a Westerner, David Gordon White:


    In short-East comes short.

    They (India, China, Tibet, japan, Korea, …) are not reducible to soteriology (as Needham & Dasgupta clearly show); they did have other schools of thought, but these are plainly inferior to the Western ones; their (India, China) ideas are basically Bronze Age world-view they remained stuck in; their philosophies are too narrow in most aspects, including soteriological.

    The West, ancient Greece & later variants of Christianity, has all it almost all (not Hatha Yoga with asanas, bit Western theoria/contemplation is basically the same) & more. Western soteriology is explicitly put forth first in Greek Orphic tradition (too many works), then in Hermetism & in Plotinus who followed Plato:

    For Christianity- too much of the Christian soteriological literature. I’d just stick to the old classic:

    and would add relatively newer serious work:

    The best spiritual psychology in the world, in my opinion, is also work of two Western philosophers & psychologists, both technically Catholics (one of them of Jewish extraction):

    So, we in the west are best: we have soteriology on par with Easterners (just we are not stuck in the muddle of being obsessed with it), we have better science & arts; we have better music; we look better.

    And have absolutely the best chicks.

  147. Wally says:
    @turtle

    I knew that it was just a matter of time before the flag of the mediocre, I never want to grow up, Jew Mendelssohn would be raised.

    Next we’ll no doubt see the ‘genius’ of that god awful dilettante, Leonard The Swish Bernstein, praised above everyone else.

    Not to mention copy cat Jew Mahler and the one hit wonder, Jew Samuel Barber.

    Jews: the bride at every wedding, the corpse at every funeral

    • Replies: @turtle
    , @vinteuil
    , @Skeptikal
  148. I don’t really agree with articles like this one. The comments always devolve into masturbatory stroke-fests over who knows and loves music the most. Such comments I can only regard as being somehow insincere. In all of my personal enjoyment of music from childhood up until the present, never has that experience contained within it the slightest desire to virtue-signal such enjoyment, which desire indeed would be antithetical to it. Nothing so quickly and thoroughly poisons aesthetic contemplation like pride and egotism. Please leave classical music alone.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  149. @turtle

    Well, perhaps a vulgarian’s remark: apart from her gift & accomplishment- she’s aged well.

    • Replies: @turtle
  150. @Franklin Ryckaert

    So let’s get pedantic and try to flesh out the enthymeme.

    1. Jesus Christ is the only God. (Go find out why.)
    2. Spirituality, as understood in this context, is creaturely.
    3. God is. All else was created by him.
    4. The Creator is superior to all his creatures.
    5. Only Christian spirituality is rooted in Jesus Christ and his revelation in the Old and New Testaments.

    Therefore Christian spirituality is superior to all other ‘spiritualities’.

    Christianity is the only true religion. This is the confession and claim of the church from the start.

    • Agree: 95Theses
  151. Let’s throw in a bit of provocation: isn’t music actually over-rated? All music? It acts on various levels: excites & “forces” you to dance; arouses your emotions; at the highest level, there is something we could call spiritual or transcendent infusion of our interior being & we are listening nothing vivacious or emotional, but some stuff that seems to touch the core of our essential selves (in my case, these are Monteverdi’s …you know what; Bach’s B-Minor, Matthaus & Fugue Art; Handel’s Messiah; Beethoven’s 5th & Solemnis (not his quartets which I don’t get); Mozart’s Requiem; Brahms’ Deutsches; Stravinsky’s Rites & Orff’s Carmina, although these two works speak more to my, say, subconscious than to the superconscious).

    It could be true Schopenhauer was right that music is bathhouse (not pre-AIDS gay) of the spirit.

    On the other hand- music does not say anything; we have no cognition by & through it; Dostoevsky & Faulkner were indifferent to it, while E.M. Forster was ecstatic- but he was a faqqot; we’re as dumb after listening to it as we have been before;it doesn’t impart vision & wisdom & deeper “knowing” of anything, but is close to prophecy, a state associated with a primitive mind…

    On the other hand- music may be, on any level, something essentially human.

    When we become cyborgs & terminators- we could get rid of it. Just- not before, imho…

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  152. @Cogitator

    he never thought to thank them for inventing the instrument that he played

    Now that you chose the trumpet, nobody can say for sure who invented it:

    “The first known metal trumpets can be traced back to around 1500BC. Silver and bronze trumpets were discovered in the grave of King Tut in Egypt, and other ancient versions of the instrument were found in China, South America, Scandinavia, and Asia.”

    https://www.wwbw.com/the-music-room/a-brief-history-of-the-trumpet

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
  153. @Jus' Sayin'...

    In any case, the most important point about musical notation is that Europeans had an effective way to store, accumulate and “broadcast” musical progress.

  154. turtle says:
    @Wally

    Next we’ll no doubt see the ‘genius’ of that god awful dilettante, Leonard The Swish Bernstein, praised above everyone else.

    Not by me, you won’t. Though highly regarded as an orchestra conductor (with which I agree), I never thought much of his compositions.

    And as far as Mendelssohn is concerned, you ought not let your well-known anti-Jewish prejudice color your every remark. The issue here is not a critique of Mendelssohn’s own music, but his evident contribution to resurrecting the works of J.S. Bach, at least according to the page which I found by Google search this AM.
    Personally, I do not care who or how, only that J.S. Bach was restored to his rightful preeminence, and that musicians the world over continue to perform his many works, as well as those of the plethora of other talented Baroque composers.

    • Agree: 95Theses
    • Replies: @Wally
    , @95Theses
  155. @contrapunctus

    The French style was also modeled after the Italian, and Italian was the court lingo in France.

    All (artistic) roads lead to Rome.

    AJM

  156. All of this name calling of White privilege, racism, and White supremacy IS JUST PLAIN ENVY AND JEALOUSY… NOTHING ELSE. They can’t have it, can’t create it, never will, so they steal lie, cheat and destroy because they are like toddler psychopath ‘Chuckie Dolls’.

    • Agree: WSG
  157. DCBillS says:
    @contrapunctus

    OK Bach is great. But the greatest? Handel (another German) occupies that spot. Handel made his living by producing marketable music. Bach by pleasing his patron. The free market wins again.

  158. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    what is Western religion? It includes Greco-Roman heritage & Christianity,

    Europe as it is conventionally defined.

    though some-many?- would include also the Egyptian & Persians (I wouldn’t, just….).

    If you start doing that, you’re going down a slippery slope of appropriating everything.

    I don’t see them inferior as cultural matrices: what greater Asia (China, India, Japan, Islam,…) has to offer in comparison with Rouen cathedral, the Parthenon, Michelangelo, Duerer, Bach, Dante, Milton, Beethoven, Dostoevsky, Rembrandt, El Greco, ..(I am talking only about religion inspired works)? Western spiritual tradition is certainly more conductive to monumental & dominant works in all arts.

    That point is moot. Greed and pride are also conducive to monumental works.

    The differences are in aesthetic taste informed by one’s spiritual worldview. The aim of Buddhism/Taoism/Confucianism are different from those of Christianity/Judaism/Islam. It’s more subtle and sublime.

    In philosophy, both Indian & Chinese traditions are much weaker if we follow the entire Western tradition from Thales, Pythagoras, Democritus, Plato, Plotinus, Epictetus, Augustine, Aquinas, Leibniz, Descartes, Holbach, Hegel, Marx, James, Nietzsche, Comte, Spengler, Jaspers, … We got here epistemology, ethics, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, proto-scientific philosophies (economy, psychology, politics, …), materialism & idealism, …

    No it’s not weaker. What you have in the West is a perennial struggle of dialectics that cannot be resolved because you can’t give up god and dualism. The history of Western thought is the oscillation from one extreme to another. You call that progress. But you’re really going in circles.

    With India & China- well, they don’t have one crucial idea: progress. Then, add individualism. Then…

    Don’t have progress? Don’t be silly. Of course they had progress. But progress is followed by decline, just as it is happening now in the West. Decline does not negate the progress that came before.

    The West invented individualism (and secularism) because it was oppressed by religious fundamentalism. The West bounces from extreme to extreme.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  159. turtle says:
    @Dmitry

    I assume, Jewish parents forced piano very heavily on their daughters in that historical era as part of bourgeois ambitions.

    “Bourgeois ambitions,” as you put it, were certainly not confined to Jews. nor confined to one era.
    In my own family, one of my great uncles (my grandfather’s older brother, the oldest of six brothers), born to German (not Jewish) immigrant parents in Brooklyn, NY in the 1890s, was disciplined in piano from an early age. In his autobiography, he laments not being able to go outside and play, as he was required to stay in and practice, which paid off. He made his performance debut at Carnegie Hall, studied in Europe, and became a professor of music at a well regarded school.

    In my own generation (born 1949), I in common with many peers, were “pushed” by our parent to be academic high achievers. Eventually, some of us rebelled (I think that was called “the 1960s”) but not before out brains were contaminated with knowledge of subjects such as mathematics, natural sciences, and engineering. (Joking about “contaminated,” of course.)

  160. Anonymous[144] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Your taste in literature sucks as well.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  161. turtle says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    aged well.

    Since we are being vulgarian,
    OT, but she as well:

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  162. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Indian philosophy is mostly about salvation (i.e. liberation from the wheel of birth-and-death). As such it has no equivalent in Western philosophy.

    The West has salvation, but it’s childish in comparison.

    Indian philosophy is about liberation, not salvation per se. Liberation is not necessarily being saved from anything but attaining ultimate realization.

    Chinese philosophy is mostly about harmony. Harmony with society in Confucianism and harmony with nature in Taoism.

    Harmony in the everyday world. And liberation from the everyday world by seeing it correctly.

    Arabic and Jewish (medieval) philosophy is mostly borrowed Greek philosophy to solve the problem which is more authoritative : reason or faith. For both the latter won out and both cultures remained mired in religious authoritarianism. Western philosophy is the attempt to understand the world (and man) by reason, but never to transcend the world (and the human condition) such as in Indian philosophy.

    The West sought refuge in reason because it was so mired in faith and religion. A quasi rejection of spiritual sentiment seemed to be the only means of escape. But even then, it didn’t completely escape.

    The West created a bifurcated system: Reason with which to interact with the physical world. Religion through which we saved our souls.

  163. Emslander says:
    @nokangaroos

    When isn’t excellence an exception. Grace Bumbry comes from this little town in Illinois where I was born and now live. Her brother just died. He was the leader of a little jazz band that played in the region up until a couple of years ago. There is no “rule” when it comes to race, relgion, national or ethnic exceptionalism. Trying to create one with a lot of claptrap will never get anybody anywhere. I’m white, Germanic and smart and I can’t make music of any kind. Where is the rule that I should, with no talent? C’mon, man!

  164. Bruno says:

    For playing the piano, Jewish are 50 times over-represented in the best (45%) to whites (48%) and 1000 times compared to East Asians (2%) and others (5% : the gypsy Cziffra or black Andre Watts)

    But for composer, whites non Jewish are almost alone.

    I think probably there is a peculiar form of spatial intelligence needed that both Jewish (there is Tchaikovsky, Schnabel and a few others, not much) and asian lack to be great composer.

    But classical music wouldn’t be what it is without the Jews : Josef Lhevine . Martha Argerich (who is an horrible person, the way she spoke about Cziffra in private I have been told , for example …). Vladimir Horowitz. Etc ….

    Thank you the jews for how you made the music magic.

    • Replies: @Truth3
  165. Voltara says:

    Yesterday I had my haircut by a Vietnamese/Chinese barber. A great fellow, we always have an interesting conversation including plenty of race-based teasing. We started talking music – the different structure of the Eastern vs. Western octave – and I wondered aloud what it would have been like for the first Chinese to witness a full orchestra of western instruments.

    “Shithouse”, was his reply.

    I was a little shocked and began listing the reasons I saw western music as so much richer, varied, emotionally and intellectually impactful. He cut me off.

    “We don’t like western music. It’s too loud and boring”

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @Anonymous
  166. @Anonymous

    The West invented individualism (and secularism) because it was oppressed by religious fundamentalism. The West bounces from extreme to extreme.

    Well, not true. You seem not to understand richness of Western heritage (Rembrandt & Bach & El Greco… immaterial? Sorry, you lost, by a long shot).

    “East” is a complex of stagnant grand old civilizations too parochial & too afraid to become global.

    And, William Blake was right:

    The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom…You never know what is enough until you know what is more than enough.

  167. @contrapunctus

    In the monotheistic frame of mind you can state :

    1) God is the creator of all (things and beings).

    2) True spirituality must be directed to God.

    3) Spirituality directed not to God, must therefore be inferior because it is directed to one of his creatures.

    So far so good. But then you state that only spirituality directed to Christ is true because Christ is identical with God. That is indeed the Christian dogma (not accepted by the other two monotheistic faths, Judaism and Islam), but by no means proven or self-evident. You assume it already as a fact and then you use that assumption to “prove” that spirituality directed to Christ is superior. That is classical circular reasoning (based on faith only). Your last sentence is indeed a statement of “faith only”. Jews and Muslims don’t accept Christ as identical with God. They see him as a creature and worship of him as a form of idolatry.
    Again, circular reasoning is very common in religion.

  168. Anonymous[144] • Disclaimer says:
    @Prester John

    Dude FFS have some self respect. Shes just a brown-nosing power worshipping oriental suck-up.

    Nonwhites do not admire the White man’s values they just admire what they have produced namely power and wealth. The flip side is an intense envy/hatred.

    Amy Chua had a good run playing the good immigrant but it is an act. Chinese are very inscrutable.

  169. Alfa158 says:
    @Anonymous

    Then why are you identifying as Asian, which is usually interpreted as a racial category. Why aren’t you identifying ethnically as well? Are you Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, Filipino or what?
    Or is identifying by ethnicity only for Whites in order to keep us atomized?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  170. @DCBillS

    Not everything can be valued monetarily.
    If the free market and financial success counts as the gold standard in music, then Richard Clayderman who is wildly more successful than any keyboardist or pianist that ever lived, is the greatest.

  171. @DCBillS

    The free market is no arbiter of quality. What a typical American idea!

  172. Saggy says: • Website

    Too good to pass up …. probably the consensus greatest pianist of the 20th century ……. if you don’t appreciate classical music check this out …. I didn’t understand classical music until I heard Horowitz ….

    • Replies: @turtle
  173. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    In short-East comes short.

    In what respect? In endless tautological arguments?

    What probably comes short is modern study and scholarship, which is arguably overrepresented by Westerners, including their bias.

    The West, ancient Greece & later variants of Christianity, has all it almost all (not Hatha Yoga with asanas, bit Western theoria/contemplation is basically the same) & more.

    If you say so. But having had a thought of something at one time doesn’t give you ownership of all such related thoughts or even to that thought if it is mostly forgotten/rejected subsequently.

    The Greeks were amazing. Ideas were coming out of their ears. But many peoples at some time have many thoughts and ideas. (The Chinese had all sorts of ideas too) So what? The question is what survived, influenced culture and became more than just a passing idea.

    So, we in the west are best: we have soteriology on par with Easterners (just we are not stuck in the muddle of being obsessed with it)

    But it is the West that is obsessed with it. There is no one more preoccupied with sin and salvation than Europeans and Muslims.

    we have better science & arts; we have better music; we look better.

    Science is a work in progress. I agree about the music.

    You ought to look better. You wake up to yourself every morning and see yourself on television. But it’s your tendency to turn the subjective into dogma that gets you into trouble.

    What gets me is how a people who could create such beautiful music at the same time be so murderous, belligerent and quarrelsome. There is not a people who have spilled as much blood in the name of God, religion and greed than the people of the symphony and concertos.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @vinteuil
  174. MEFOBILLS says:

    The great anthropologist Michael Bradley, who was half Jew, noted that a line can be drawn between east and west Europe.

    On the western side art, language, engineering invention. On the eastern side is science and mathematics.

    Great chess players are almost always from the eastern side as well. Bradley surmises it is admixture of neanderthalic genes. Chess and Science takes a mathematical mind and large memory. Apparently our neanderthal ancestors were great at counting, and had geometric art, such as tessellations. It is likely our neanderthal ancestors also had great memory, especially given the size of their brains. Semites, including peoples of the middle east, are heavily neanderthaloid and hence have geometric art, and no graven images. It could well be there are no graven images because they couldn’t carve.

    Engineering requires the ability to see things in your minds eye before creation of the device. You have to carve it in your mind before creating it.

    Classical music requires invention of instruments, which in turn is engineering.

    Japanese and Chinese are also great engineers, so it follows that the “Han” race is appreciative of classical music.

    • Replies: @turtle
  175. 95Theses says:
    @Realist

    Apparently so. It’s the burden we carry. ツ

    • Replies: @Realist
  176. @Anonymous

    Please- this is not beauty contest…

  177. Agent76 says:
    @turtle

    Nice selection choice and share Turtle!

    “The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.”
    Johann Sebastian Bach

  178. @turtle

    They don’t make them like that anymore…..

    • Replies: @turtle
  179. MEFOBILLS says:

    Bradley also noticed there was punctuated evolution, especially in Germany.

    The rich would recycle their gains back to the public in the form of art and concerts. Artists were supported and concerts were a gift to the public. Please note that any civilization cannot have a hostile elite, the elite has to be similar to the people, and come from the people.

    (The great replacement is due to a hostile oligarchy, that doesn’t give a damn because they are not from the people.)

    One can imagine the art and music scene of Germany in this renaissance era, as money flowed from the rich into music venues.

    The Church, especially the Catholic church under influence of Dominican monks, taught that hard work was god like. Hard work, evolution, money – all vectored together at this point in time.

    Inside of the church was music of course, and that music was often the province of church ladies.

    Several generations of church ladies and their musically inclined husbands created punctuated evolution of musical genius.

  180. @Voltara

    各自為他自己

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  181. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alfa158

    “Asian” is a terrible demonym as well, but it’s the ones you created and the one we’re stuck with for now.

    I don’t identify as “Asian” (as it’s pretty meaningless in itself). I just use it for lack of something better.

    White is not an ethnicity. It’s a racial category. You will not be atomized by going by another name, like “Western” or “European”.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
  182. joecbart says:

    Brenton Sanderson uses close to 3,900 words to get to the point.

    “… Classical music is one of the crowning glories of Western civilization, and White people have every right to take proud in their race’s achievements in the genre, and to cite these achievements as motivation for pro-White activism.”

    What’s with this white “BS”?

    As I see it: Classical music is one of the crowning glories of “Civilization” , and “All” of us who share this planet should be thankful.”

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @Anonymous
  183. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    You seem not to understand richness of Western heritage (Rembrandt & Bach & El Greco… immaterial?

    I didn’t dismiss them. I just said Western individualism/secularism emerged as a reaction to the oppressive church.

    “East” is a complex of stagnant grand old civilizations too parochial & too afraid to become global.

    Yeah… we know. It stagnated hundreds of years ago. So? And today, it’s your turn to stagnate and grow old. Let’s talk in 500 years and then you tell me who his old and parochial.

    But growing old doesn’t erase the flower of your youth. We’ll still remember the Industrial Revolution, the moon landing and the internet.

  184. @Mr. Wales

    Well, not trying do diminish anyone’s contribution, but…. Hendrix is not better (nor worse) than other acclaimed guitar player.

    They all suck. This is such a profession, like hookers. Or sprinting. Or gardening. Or Haiku. Or being Vegan. Or EU diplomat. Or …..

    They all…..well- suck.

  185. turtle says:
    @Saggy

    None better than the great Horowitz, for sure.
    But many others can play in his league, as well…
    Walter Gieseking, Emil Gilels, Artur Rubenstein, et. al.
    Everyone here likely has his own list, usually of the form:
    {Composition] as performed by [Artist]
    Thanks for sharing… 🙂

  186. johan says:

    The heights of Western culture, in literature, music, poetry, painting, etc. are the product of a very very small group though, they pushed the level of the arts to these heights, and they often were hardly appreciated by their contemporaries, to say the least. Same as the Greek culture, philosophy, architecture and sculpting where pushed to heights by a few, who were also persecuted and prosecuted (and sometimes executed..) by the war mongering democratic rulers and the dumb masses.
    The heights of culture in these times were reached in despite of the rest of the whites, say in despite of the ninety-five-plus percent. They forgot all about Bach until some select ones from a later historical elite brought his music back into the picture, these very few select also had to deal with great strife and effort encountering great resistance and stupidity in their attempts to raise the status of art, and the art itself… say that what whites nowadays, now the road has been paved.. pride themselves of…
    In the case of music, it is even the very select elite and closed Pythagorean school which set the basis for the western tonal system, they and the freemason circles which play’d a huge role had to work often in secret, or low profile in order to not get persecuted by the rest of society…
    Go figure..

  187. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    And, William Blake was right:

    The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom…You never know what is enough until you know what is more than enough.

    Was he right? Or just waxing poetic?

    If wisdom is best attained through excess, then perhaps we should all do everything to extreme? But that’s silly, isn’t it?

    Extreme and excess are synonyms for lies. The excess prove to be untrue in the end.

    The “-isms” and religious wars fought for in the West have almost all proven to be fiction.

    Maybe we should aim for balance, reasonableness and moderation. At least most of the time.

    “Moderation in all things, especially moderation.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson

    • Replies: @turtle
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  188. turtle says:
    @MEFOBILLS

    “great” anthropologist ?

    Hee hee hee.

    On the western side art, language, engineering invention. On the eastern side is science and mathematics

    .

    Rubbish.Exactly where is this “line” to be drawn?
    Somewhere west of Cambridge, England, apparently, in order to put Sir Isaac Newton on the science and mathematics side. One counterexample disproves a hypothesis, but if you really want more, there are plenty of them out there. Start with some French mathematicians, e.g. Laplace, Lagrange, and scientists, e.g. Lavoisier. Germany, Switzerland, and Italy are generally considered to be part of Western Europe, also Denmark. Does the name Galileo ring a bell? Neils Bohr? Werner Heisenberg?
    I’ll stop here, because the original assertion is just too stupid for words.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  189. @joecbart

    I absolutely agree with your point, with regard to “racial” angle. This is a universalist & humanist approach.

    But life leads us to ask uneasy questions: what if some- not all, but some – high culture achievements are culturally or “racially” restricted?

    Minorities interested in classical music are mostly East Asians (Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese,..). South Asians- Indians & Pakistanis, very rarely. Personally, I’ve been a mediator when a Japanese guy from the Netherlands bought a violin from an acquaintance of mine.
    It’s a relief to comment on an article free from Asian-IQ lame supremacists & their lapdogs (nomina sunt odiosa) & say a word or two on a non-negligible global cultural phenomenon: East Asians are fascinated by European (and American, which partly derives from Europe) “high culture”- ballet, classical music, even great literature (among the most influential writers in Japan have been/are Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Proust… especially Proust, with his gigantic work of illuminations through introspection). You got symphony orchestra in all major East Asian cities-and Indian, I think.

    Not so in Lagos or Nairobi.

    To draw a rough picture: Latin America is culturally European, even in countries emphatically anti-White. Muslim world isn’t, as a rule, much affected or interested in Western “high culture”. Blacks- Africa etc.- couldn’t care less. India- a mixed reaction, but not too enthusiastic. East Asia- crazy about Western “high culture” (music, literature, even philosophy (Heidegger), arts (Van Gogh, Michelangelo,..). Perhaps sensibilities of these old cultures have something to do with it.
    And Blacks ?

    Frankly, if I were Black, I would find all these folks, from DuPrez and Orlande de Lassus via Byrd and Bach and Elie Faure to Bruckner and Stravinsky- utterly alien. Even Gershwin’s “Porgy and Bess” wouldn’t change my mind. Who cares about counterpoint, polyphony, the fugue, chromatic modulation ….too alien, too “White”.

    Not all, of course, it is evident. I’ve given a few examples.

    But, statistically speaking….

  190. turtle says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    They didn’t always make them like that, even back then…
    Time has unfortunately not been kind to B.B.

    So I will not post a “now” photo..
    Best to remember her as she was….

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  191. johan says:
    @Rick Costello

    Black culture flourished at the first half of the twentieth century (in the area of music), but is has been unfortunately thoroughly debased and degraded, which has to do with white and Jew power mongering, besides all over gradual but steep decline, including the culture of whites.
    Rap is highly degrading, even when it is not the crude bling bling and aggressive stuff, melody and harmony are uplifting, music with a strong accent on beat and music without melody is primitive and degrading. You can hardly blame black culture though, when they live among whites, and the white culture goes down, they go down with it.

  192. Unvlam says:
    @anonymous

    “to me all his music sounds like the product of a drug addled negro mind.”

    I don’t know why you made that dig about “(Usually rock fans between 55 and 70)”, as most of the people in the comments seem to be precisely that- boomers. That and other haughty spergs who’s taste amounts to “if a nigger made it, it’s bad.”

    Waiting on the sequel to this article, on how Classic Rock is the 2nd greatest genre of music in history after Classical, written by a 65 year old with a stack of semen-stained copies of “The Rolling Stone Album Guide” by as his references.

  193. 95Theses says:
    @Vegan Shark

    Pretty much agree with about everything you said. Nicely done! I’m not familiar with how Shostakovich is connected, so I will be looking into that. (Personally, I never much cared for his stuff, at least of what I’ve had a chance to listen, so maybe I just haven’t heard his best material.)

    I’ve been immersing myself into Lawrence Auster’s thoughts daily at VFR since October, and your reference to the Transcendentals makes me wonder if you’re not also an Auster reader.

    As to World Music, I have a few favorites.

    As the World Sleeps (long version)
    2013, June 11 | Artisan

    Adiemus (Karl Jenkins and the Adiemus Singers)
    2008, June 07 | Tin Tilly

    Okay, not World but maybe redolent of it.

    Africa from Water Wind & Stone (Checkfield)
    2016, July 12 | Contemporary Jazz

    • Replies: @Vegan Shark
  194. annamaria says:
    @Vegan Shark

    • Troll: vinteuil
    — What has triggered your displeasure, vinteuil? — “Western classical music is absolutely supreme among the arts in ingenuity, emotional depth, and spiritual striving,” sounds right.
    Stalin’s “unfriendliness” towards D. D. Shostakovich is well documented.

    • Agree: 95Theses
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  195. turtle says:
    @Anonymous

    Do everything to excess.
    Moderation is for monks.
    -Robert A. Heinlein

    Fire all of your guns at once,
    And explode into space.
    -Steppenwolf

    Dionysian vs. Apollonian.
    Interestingly, Heinlein was trained as an engineer, at USNA.

  196. Cassowary says:
    @Father O'Hara

    “and a bunch more killer guitarists. I would probably say Gallagher is the best, but-!wait,Clapton! Who knows but there’s a lot of good ones!”

    I’m sure every other one would be someone who was most active in the late 60’s-70’s. Hendrix was a drug-addled, talentless nigger. The best guitarists though? White guitarists boomers grew up with and fetishize because they refuse to listen to anything else (that in reality often includes classical, here it’s largely just a self-congratulating cudgel.)

  197. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Voltara

    I’m Asian-American and I’ve wondered whether there’s an aesthetic to music which I’ve failed to appreciate in other cultures not Western. I think Western classical music is the apogee of the art form, but I couldn’t exactly tell you why. I just know what the ear/mind likes. However, music is an aesthetic that must grow on you. What was initially “loud and boring” became anything but over time.

    In other art forms like painting, calligraphy, clay and ceramics, I can clearly see the aesthetic aspect playing a part in the appreciation of the art. IMO, if you think Asian art is less than Western, you’re not getting the aesthetic. What you think is lacking is not a bug but a feature. The minimalism is intentional by design informed by a peculiar worldview and philosophy.

  198. The left has lost its collective mind. But I don’t see the relevance of blaming it on Jews. Can’t they be leftists first and Jewish second, third or fourth?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  199. @Anonymous

    We’ve strayed too much from the topic. I would end with this: ancient Greeks advised moderation, but their heart was always on the side of those who overreached.

    But there is no need to impose any universal ideal. In legal matters, yes (we can’t let muggers & rapists run around). But in individual life-follow your bliss, to quote Campbell. If your bliss is in moderation- then, follow it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  200. @turtle

    Yes, I had an unpleasant experience seeing photos of 10-15 “stars”, before & after.

    If we temporarily put aside cosmetic surgery question, it seems that some people- evidently old, retain certain dignity & nobility of countenance, to hell with wrinkles. Others, unfortunately- not.

    • Replies: @turtle
  201. @annamaria

    Hm….

    The Song of the Forests (Песнь о лесах), Op. 81, is an oratorio by Dmitri Shostakovich composed in the summer of 1949. It was written to celebrate the forestation of the Russian steppes following the end of World War II. Premiered by the Leningrad Philharmonic under Yevgeny Mravinsky on 15 November 1949, the work was well received by the government, earning the composer a Stalin Prize the following year.

    The oratorio is notorious for lines praising Joseph Stalin as the “great gardener”, although its later performances have normally omitted them.
    ……………………

    One has to admit that “forestation oratorio” is something of an oddity.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    , @annamaria
    , @95Theses
  202. AaronB says:

    I used to like classical music, but then I discovered the Icelandic band Sigur Ros – much more spiritual. Since then, classical music seems bombastic.

    • LOL: reiner Tor
  203. turtle says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    some people- evidently old, retain certain dignity & nobility of countenance,

    Yes.
    My honorary uncle, for one:
    https://www.pe.com/2011/07/12/corona-man-overcomes-loss-of-home-damaged-homeland/
    Still going strong at 91.
    He has been a real inspiration to me.
    I think it is usually called “character.”
    There may be other words for it…

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  204. Seraphim says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    No equivalent of salvation in Western philosophy?
    Why is then the Christ the ‘Saviour’, who came down from Heaven ‘for us men and our salvation’?
    Western philosophy was not always the school of atheistic evolutionism that is nowadays. Its aim was the acquisition of “Sophia”, the Wisdom, which is the Logos/Christ, “who gives the power to become the sons of God to them that believe on his name”.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  205. @nokangaroos

    The St Thomas Boys Choir of Leipzig, Germany has been in continuous existence for more than 800 years. When it was still only three centuries old, they gained a very famous choirmaster, who wrote the following for the very choir singing it here 500 years later.

    The most important thing to notice about that clip is how disgustingly white the boys are. And gut-wrenchingly male.

    We firebombed these people. Have mercy, mein Gott. Ebarme dich!

    • Replies: @95Theses
    , @annamaria
  206. 95Theses says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Bravo! What glorious music! Thanks, Craig.

    Without cheating, and based solely on my first impression, that sure has the flavor of Handel.

    I happen to have a couple Christmas carol CDs with recordings of the St Thomas Boys Choir of Leipzig.

    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  207. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Actually, my original point wasn’t really about being moderate or living moderately. I was just saying that the West tends to oscillate from extreme to extreme (ideas) because it can’t synthesize apparent philosophical paradoxes.

    It can give up God or material, but not both at the same time, for instance. So in order to work around the blindspot, volumes and volumes are written to explain how a world can exist that is not coherent. You call it great philosophy. I call it going around in circles.

    On individualism, I said that emerged as a result of the church. Without the oppression of religion on the individual, there is no need for the dialectic of the inviolate individual.

    On a separate but related note, the liberation of slaves also arose because the West practiced slavery on a massive scale. It was the logical dialectic to industrial slavery. It didn’t arise because the West was more virtuous as it often likes to think.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  208. AaronB says:
    @Anonymous

    This is a really intelligent comment.

    Much of the culture of the West in the modern period (500 years), is, in a sense, parochial – it is an attempt to heal a specific spiritual sickness, the inability to synthesize opposites.

    It will seem irrelevant to future generations, who have regained health.

    Dostoevsky’s Notes From Underground, for instance, will be incomprehensible to people living in a culture where the opposition between logic and feeling has been transcended. Or irrelevant.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  209. MEFOBILLS says:
    @turtle

    I’ll stop here, because the original assertion is just too stupid for words.

    I’m repeating Bradley’s thesis. For a thesis to be correct in the social sciences, especially anthropology, then it is big picture stuff. It becomes probabilities and distributions.

    Anybody can point out “exception makes the rule illogic.” Of course there are engineers and scientists on both side of the divide. There have been movements of populations in the thousands of years since the last ice ages. If there is a residual anthropological overhang, it will have a signal and show up in the data, despite “exceptions.”

    Bradley put the divide roughly where Poland is now. One can also overlay technical and engineering achievements over this area and the pattern repeats.

    Making comments like Hee Hee Hee is girlish and sophomoric.

  210. I don’t often listen to classical music, because it takes a certain mood, and it’s completely alien and incongruent with soulless scenes of sterile Western metropolises. There is nothing on this earth more cringy and pretentious than a yuppie in a post-modernist apartment listening to classical music. The two are so antithetical it’s almost sacrilige.

    Last time I listened to classical music it was with my friend in his tiny apartment in Vienna. It was nice, it was fitting and unforgettable. Remembering it through those long walks in Austrian and German parks really resonated deep in me. I just can’t get that feeling back here in my ugly Western big city. The two are worlds apart

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  211. Corvinus says:

    “The superiority of Western classical music is so decisive one could almost rest the argument for the superiority of Western culture on it alone. There exists a hierarchy in the world of sound, as in other phenomena. Noise occupies the lowest rung in this hierarchy; it is an undifferentiated mass of sound in which no distinction exists. The lowest kind of music, say that of Australia’s Aborigines, most closely corresponds to noise. Western classical music, by contrast, exists on the highest rung because it apprehends sound in the most highly differentiated way possible. It is the farthest from noise and most fully exploits the inherent potential of the world of sound.”

    The author of this piece is way off key. The fact of the matter is that a person’s musical tastes is subjective in nature. Certainly Western classical music is beautiful, as is non-Western forms of music. Furthermore, Australian aborginal music is not “noise”, it’s rhythms and sounds. In other words, music.

    • Agree: tamo
  212. The 1960s proved that black individuals and groups can produce good and even superior music as long as they are singing white music. As was the case with individuals such as Percy Sledge, Sam Cook, Johnny Mathis, Nat King Cole, and groups like The Platters, and The Supremes. The truth is, that no black person or group has produced or sung any music since that any normal white person in their right mind could listen to for more than 30 seconds without going crazy.

  213. Alfa158 says:
    @Anonymous

    Race is a scientifically valid and genetically traceable characteristic so it is just as valid or more valid than the other categorizations you suggest. And it is not mutually exclusive with those others. However, European is a geographical term and Western is a cultural term. There are Whites who don’t live in Europe and now there are non-Whites who do live there. Many n0n-Whites have adapted to Western civilization and thrive in it, so European and Western and race are all overlapping but different categorizations.
    White people are under attack specifically for being White so we must be real. We will continue to refer to ourselves as Whites or Western or Europeans or Irish or German etc., wherever that is an appropriate categorization.
    Please feel free to refer to yourself by whatever term you prefer, and we’ll do the same.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  214. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    各自為他自己

    Google Translate? Meaning (if any)? Looks like we’ll be safe from super-human AI for another while.

  215. @Realist

    Science was once completely dominated by Europeans. Of course, Ashkenazi Jews described themselves as European until recently. Now you should buy a New Scientist or Scientific American journal and look at the names of the scientists. In the USA, that’s mainly Chinese. Of course there are also Indian, Korean, Japanese and Iranian names. There are also European names when it was a joint project with a European institution. There are also some European names that may be of US citizens.

    Scimago magazine publishes a list of the world’s greatest research institutions.
    (1) Chinese Academy of Science
    (2) French National Research Centre
    (3) Chinese Ministry of Education
    (4) Harvard
    (5) Harvard Medical School
    (6) A German institution whose name I forget (I’m 80 and I’ll forget anything I like)
    (7-10) US institutions

    Still impressive for Europe and also for the US’s Asian researchers. Don’t forget that there’s more money in other careers and the competition in research is ferocious although not as bad as for elite sportsmen who want to be professionals. I don’t trust my memory completely but I think it’s only 6% of people who get PhDs who ever get tenure at a university.

    There are twice as many patents granted in China as in the USA but whose patents are either? It also makes more sense to lodge a patent application in the country where a manufactured product is produced.

    [email protected]

    • Replies: @Realist
  216. @nokangaroos

    If you run a bar, play classical or death metal to keep out the Blacks.

    I love both genres, by the way. Bombastic as hell.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  217. @Rick Costello

    As the saying has it, in naming rap music they forgot a “c” at the beginning.

  218. Parfois1 says:

    It is generally agreed that the European civilization brought forth the highest expressions of human artistic endeavours from cave paintings to classical music; therefore, like racial whiteness, everything associated with the white man must be demolished in order to create global man – the undifferentiated Homo Globalis. That is the gist of the Great Jewish Project enshrined in its spiritual and materialistic mission. Luckily for the designers of the GJP, they are being helped largely by the white man himself.

    Look at our history. Our greatest achievements (I’m writing while listening to the Pastoral) came to the fore on the world stage with the Age of Discoveries and Renaissance in all the fields of human achievement, from military conquest to religious fervour, from great cathedrals to great melodies, from poetry to science and beyond metaphysics.

    Yet, the apogee of European civilization was reached by the end of the XIX century; since then it has been a steep descent into a form of advanced barbarism culminating with the two great fratricidal slaughters of the last century.

    Look again at history. Is it a coincidence that European decline is inversely mirrored in Jewish ascendancy? True, not all statistical correlations lead to the cause-effect conclusion, but should not be lightly dismissed as a random event. The alternative may be suggested by Hegel’s dialectics (the European “supremacy” generated its own destruction) but they are not exclusive of each other.

    Meanwhile the Jewish onslaught leaves no stone unturned – even the great cathedrals are doomed. On the other hand let’s take refuge in the belief that Hegel’s curse will work the other way and a revival of European pride will emerge as a reaction to so much vilification. The least we could do is to go down with honour, not to become the Jews’ housenegro.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  219. Great article, absolutely true…but it does not give sufficient credit to Christianity. Hearing Gregorian Chants prepared us to produce the best secular music …and Bach’s religious music. It wasn’t just those good old white people’s genes.

  220. @Bardon Kaldian

    “East” is a complex of stagnant grand old civilizations too parochial & too afraid to become global.

    Damn globalisation! The greatest wisdom is still eastern as expressed in the penultimate verse of the Tao Te Ching:

    [MORE]

    “Imagine a small country with few people.
    They enjoy the labour of their hands
    and do not waste time inventing
    labour-saving machines.
    Since they dearly love their homes,
    they are not interested in travel.
    Although they have boats and carriages,
    they are rarely used.
    Although there may be weapons,
    nobody ever uses them.
    They are content with healthy food,
    pleased with simple clothing,
    satisfied in snug homes.
    People take pleasure in being with their families,
    spending weekends working in their gardens
    and delighting in the doings of the neighbourhood.
    Although the next country is close enough
    that they can hear their roosters crowing and dogs barking,
    they are content to leave each other in peace.”

    Such a philosophy of life would lead to a far better world than what we have now.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  221. @Sparkon

    Haydn is great, but he is not alone. In terms of quantity, J. S. Bach produced a lot of superior music. In terms of quality, Bach, Albinoni, and Vivaldy are certainly no lower than Haydn. And that’s just Baroque period, music did not stop there: Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and many others composed fantastic music in later centuries.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  222. 95Theses says:
    @Biff

    Thanks. (Now I’ll be spending the next week puzzling out what the first half of that meant.) ツ

  223. Anonymous[147] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    This will occur in the messianic age I presume? I’m not sure if I’m looking forward to that or not.

  224. @Seraphim

    This thread is about music. Stop bringing up perverted Jewish myth about a God who sacrificed his own son to himself (sado-maso?).

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  225. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alfa158

    White people are under attack specifically for being White so we must be real. We will continue to refer to ourselves as Whites or Western or Europeans or Irish or German etc., wherever that is an appropriate categorization.

    Do whatever you like. But as long as you use racial terms like “white”, you will be attacked by the left for being “racist” and/or “racialist”.

    Then they react with racial identity politics. Everyone joins in with identity politics. And it’s a race to the bottom. Of the sewer.

    If that can be avoided, why not do it? Unless you really do see yourself only in terms of RACE and nothing more. Then the race to the bottom of the sewer is inevitable.

    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  226. baythoven says:
    @Sparkon

    Good for you. One hears the symphonies frequently, even many earlier ones such as your highlight. But those glorious mature string quartets, the late masses, the oratorios…Wonderful!
    One wonders what unmined gold there is in some of those operas. Even more, I long to hear some of the many neglected Cherubini operas.

  227. Seraphim says:
    @Honor is Loyalty

    Had you listened to classical music in a live performance in a concert hall (like ‘Wiener Musikverein’ for instance, since you were in Vienna, or in the temple of opera which is the ‘Wiener Staatsoper’) your experience would have been tenfold more uplifting. That was the proper way to listen to classical music (when it was not ‘chamber music’ for wealthy sponsoring princes, but which managed to trickle down to the ‘people’ for a modest fee – those princes were quite democratic in this respect). Even of listening to ‘entertainment music’ – like Strauss’s waltzes – in the Heurigers of Grinzing. You would have enjoyed the ‘Gemütlichkeit’ of ‘Wein, Weib and Gesang’ which makes the ‘Wienerish’ experience so attaching. Now, the Austrians are not ‘echte Norse’, they knew that “The Balkans begin at the Rennweg”! BTW, Hitler was Austrian (and if you listen to gossip and ‘conspiracy theories’ a bit Jewish). He listened to Wagner at the Staatsoper, but he remained a fan of Lehar’s operettas (although he was married to a Jewess, or because of that? – wink, wink).
    You can get that experience even in an ‘ugly Western big city’, for instance at Carnegie Hall in the ‘ugliest Western big city’, New York. It is a redeeming feature for that city, like the Metropolitan Opera, or the Metropolitan Museum – entrance free-, or the Cloisters – well, forget the MOMA or the Guggenheim, or Broadway for sure – the domain of Irving Berlin aka Israel Moiseyevich Beilin (“God Bless America”), Oscar Hammerstein (I and II), George Gershwin aka Jacob Bruskin Gershowitz.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  228. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Parfois1

    It is generally agreed that the European civilization brought forth the highest expressions of human artistic endeavours from cave paintings to classical music;

    Even European cave paintings are the best? Jesus Christ. The endless ode to self.

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  229. tac says:
    @Vojkan

    Certainly Baldwin and Bösendorfer (latter of which was brought into fame after Franz List’s affinity of not being able to ‘wear-down’ this piano forte with the exception of this noteworthy holdout) is a quality piano especially to the over hyped Steinway, Bechstein, Blüthner, (figure the common denominator of those and their rise to ‘prominence’ and you’ll know why–aside from sole quality) etc., but one of the understated and wholly quality pianos are Fazioli (conceived by an Italian musician and a furniture maker) pianos. Once you’ve tried one you’ll cherish the experience.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
    , @Skeptikal
  230. @Anonymous

    As a German,I agree with that.Except for Schopenhauer.While he admitted to stealing from the Indian Upanisiads,what came up with was remarkably close to Buddhism.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  231. Anonymous[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    it is an attempt to heal a specific spiritual sickness, the inability to synthesize opposites.

    Yes… and it is both its Achilles’ heel as well as the irritant prodding it “forward” — accompanied by great pyrotechnics and collateral damage. Equanimity eludes the West.

    The question of race also continues to bedevil the West because it cannot reconcile racial paradoxes. It can embrace race and harmony among peoples, but just not both at the same time.

  232. One Black music writer endorses this stance, and resents that the waltzes of Johann Strauss Jr. are regarded as part of the body of superior classical music, while the music of James Brown — “the Godfather of Soul” — is regarded as mere entertainment.

    I don’t know the music of James Brown, but here there might be a point. The waltzes are basically entertainment.

    But they are built with tools from the toolkit of Western classical music, and they were and are part of the same musical world and tradition, so while they might not be superior, they will continue to be performed at classical concert halls and similar places with similar antics. It cannot really be changed.

  233. Well, it is not called “Blue Eyed Soul Music” for no reason.

  234. Anonymous[144] • Disclaimer says:
    @joecbart

    Whoopsie

    Somebody did not read the closing argument of the article. Stop trying to retcon history classical music belongs to white poeple.

    • Agree: 95Theses
  235. Anonymous[144] • Disclaimer says:
    @JumpingJoe

    ‘Can’t they be leftists first and Jewish second, third or fourth?’

    No they are always-in any context- Jews first. They are the most tribal ethnocentric group of people in history. I have learned this to my great cost. They are fantastic mimics and utterly two-faced. Never give them the benfit of the doubt.

  236. Realist says:
    @95Theses

    Apparently so. It’s the burden we carry. ツ

    I’m proud to carry it.

  237. Realist says:
    @Donald A Thomson

    Now you should buy a New Scientist or Scientific American journal and look at the names of the scientists.

    Those once honest journals have turned into leftist propaganda rags that deny science that doesn’t fit their narrative.

    Science was once completely dominated by Europeans. Of course, Ashkenazi Jews described themselves as European until recently. Now you should buy a New Scientist or Scientific American journal and look at the names of the scientists. In the USA, that’s mainly Chinese. Of course there are also Indian, Korean, Japanese and Iranian names. There are also European names when it was a joint project with a European institution. There are also some European names that may be of US citizens.

    There is no doubt that Europeans are losing the battle of science, mostly to Asians, China in particular.
    Europe and the US are having an ideological circle jerk. Wasting money on war matériel and internecine fighting over esoteric matters. Until this stops the US and Europeans will fall further behind in what matters…scientific advancement and the future.

  238. @turtle

    Yeah. Touches a man’s heart…..

  239. @95Theses

    Nope that was Master Johann himself–a bit from St Matthew’s Passion. But Bach would have been cool with your mistake. He once said Handel was the only person in the world he would want to be if he weren’t Bach.

    St Matthew’s Passion is something like three hours long. Can you imagine what it must have been like to be alive then and be in that cathedral when it was first performed? The full symphony, pipe organ, and choir? In those days, the music you heard was probably mostly people whistling while they worked, and so on, and then, one Easter Suday…that.

  240. @Seraphim

    Hitler was Austrian (and if you listen to gossip and ‘conspiracy theories’ a bit Jewish). He listened to Wagner at the Staatsoper, but he remained a fan of Lehar’s operettas (although he was married to a Jewess, or because of that? – wink, wink).

    Onkl Adi was not Jewish, this has been long since debunked.

    But yes to most other things. This is from Paul Johnson’s “Heroes”, part on Wittgenstein:

    He seems to have had little interest in literature as such. His culture was musical. His family had held regular concerts at their palace, frequented by all the leading musicians of prewar Vienna. One of his brothers became a professional pianist, and when he lost the use of his right hand, Maurice Ravel wrote his Concerto for the Left Hand for him. Wittgenstein was not a performer, but he was a superb whistler, especially of sonata-form music, a skill he may have learned from Gustav Mahler, a friend of his parents, when director of the Vienna opera. Mahler could whistle duets and trios with astonishing virtuosity. Classical whistling seems to have been a much-sought-after accomplishment in pre-1914 Vienna. Hitler was a superb whistler, especially of his favorite, The Merry Widow, by Lehár. Wittgenstein liked to whistle an entire symphony, by Schubert or Brahms, with descants and arpeggios, and digressions into the woodwind.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  241. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I am really sad to discover that you are a real imbecile and an aggressive one at that. But this is a proof of imbecility. Keep your distance from me.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  242. @Carroll Price

    That’s long been a debate–whether popular music is the Africanization of European melody or the Europeanization of African beats, but, whichever it is, it’s powerful, it’s conquered the world, and it’s not coming from either of those continents.

  243. @vinteuil

    Pardon, mon vieux. But for one who does not drink from the well of Proust, Franck, Saint-Saëns and Fauré, you are suspiciously adept with the spellings and accent marks.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    , @Old Palo Altan
  244. Seraphim says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Well, I gave that much credence to the Hitler’s Jewish ancestry as to the other fanciful story that the origin of WW2 was the school rivalry between the young Hitler and young Wittgenstein at the Realschule in Linz!
    All right, Hitler was not Jewish. But Ludwig Wittgenstein (the philosopher) was. He was not of the German-Russian-Polish princely family of the Zu Sayn-Wittgenstein (Vitgenshtein).
    He was the great-great grandson of a Moses Meier, a Jewish land agent in the Principality of Wittgenstein, Westphalia, who following the decree of Napoleon of 1808 that everyone, including Jews, must adopt an inheritable family surname, took the name of Moses Meier Wittgenstein. His son Hermann Christian Wittgenstein converted to Catholicism (but married a Jew). His spawn fared extremely well in Austria, Ludwig’s father Karl Otto Clemens Wittgenstein (1847–1913) becoming an industrial tycoon, and by the late 1880s one of the richest men in Europe (second to the Rothschilds), with an effective monopoly on Austria’s steel cartel. His mother, Leopoldine Maria Josefa Kalmus (Poldi) was the daughter of a Bohemian Jew. That’s not to diminish the exceptional contributions of the philosopher, far from that. His devotees liked to believe that he died as a Catholic.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  245. @DCBillS

    Handel did produce one fine piece of music. It was so good he wrote it over and over again.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @vinteuil
  246. vinteuil says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I’d actually really like to know what music you love the most. You’re one of the more interesting posters, here, and I’m curious.

    Nothing so quickly and thoroughly poisons aesthetic contemplation like pride and egotism.

    True, that. Stupid snobbery was the number one driving force behind the destruction of the arts in the twentieth century.

  247. vinteuil says:
    @Wally

    Jew Samuel Barber.

    America’s greatest composer.

    Not Jewish, so far as I can determine. Were you thinking of Copland?

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  248. vinteuil says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    …music may be, on any level, something essentially human.

    When we become cyborgs & terminators- we could get rid of it.

    Bingo.

  249. @Seraphim

    Well- he was of partially Jewish ancestry, but evidently not an identity. Spiritually, he was a quester & died, technically, as a Catholic.

    Also, I’ve heard rumors that Onkl Adi could whistle most of Wagner, but I doubt it ….

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  250. @95Theses

    95,

    Thanks. Shostakovich may not be easy to warm to but his music is very much worth getting to know. It helps to understand the environment in which he was writing: most of it in Stalinist and post-Stalinist Russia, featuring secret police, show trials, terror and executions. Add to that the horrors of World War II. Under terrible stress and threats, he continued to follow his own muse and produced compositions of brilliantly scored and humane artistry.

    Shostakovich was twice condemned by the authorities: in the mid-’30s following his unorthodox but powerful Fourth Symphony, which he had to suppress; and in 1948, when he and other Soviet composers including Prokofiev were condemned by a government functionary named Zhdanov. At both periods he had to fear losing access to performances of his music, and maybe worse.

    I used to read Lawrence Auster regularly and found him a strange mixture of insightful political and social thought, articulate writing, and fanatical defense of Judaism and Israel (although he often harshly criticized individual Jews and Israelis for being leftists).

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    , @Old Palo Altan
  251. @White Guy In Japan

    …or, if you’re staging an art show or other semi-public event, anywhere in the southeastern United States, charge an entrance fee of one dollar ($1.00) to prevent hoards of blacks from mobing and ruining it.

  252. Richard B says:
    @tamo

    What does that say about the predators and parasites who are depdendent on something that’s killing itself?

    What will happen with them when the source of their pathetic dependency has killed itself?

    They’ll kill each other. Obviously. In fact, they already are.

    The only thing holding them together is their mutual hatred of what is obviously superior to them – even while it’s killing itself.

    How smart is that?

    It’s not smart at all. Obviously.

    The word you’re looking for is – DUMB!

    • Replies: @tamo
  253. vinteuil says:
    @Anonymous

    There is not a people who have spilled as much blood in the name of God, religion and greed [as] the people of the symphony and concertos.

    And there is also no other people who have ever felt a moment’s regret about spilling blood in pursuit of their collective interests.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  254. Even when tastes turn toward the baser expressions, artists appear to try to make genius out of it. The latter half of the 20th Century was a constant struggle between music makers who wanted to use the current idiom to develop more sophisticated ideas, and crass marketers and outright saboteurs who pushed a new trend of ever more unsubtle and “authentic” forms – jazz va classical, rock vs jazz, punk vs rock, etc. The ultimate expression of this was rap, and they may have succeeded in creating a form that perfectly resists any attempts to elevate it. We may be stuck with it forever.

  255. macilrae says:

    An interesting effect of the general depreciation of musical value in, for example, the UK and the USA, is the inability of a majority of people to “carry a tune” – that is to say, to “hit the right notes” when singing (or whistling). 60 years ago, as a kid in England, my teacher was very concerned because I sang ‘flat’ and I was made to perform in front of the class as an example. Most children sang in tune back then and I quickly sharpened up. Now, you listen to a group of school kids doing a number and it actually sounds awful – yet they get a standing ovation from the doting audience. Then, how about, God help me, “Happy Birthday to You” as routinely sung in restaurants? Agonizing.

    Go to a tavern in Romania, just for example, and not only do they sing in tune; they take parts. Even in the West Indies I find that the school kids there sing much better.

    At the risk of repeating myself, and wholly agreeing with Brenton Sanderson, I am utterly sick of modern Western pop music because it almost all has to have African roots – gospel, soul, R&B, jazz, rock, blues and the unspeakable ‘rap’. The pop industry pumps this stuff into the heads of our kids, doubtless as part of their diversity thrust, and it is, maybe, 5% of all the music there is – while being 95% of what you hear everywhere.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  256. vinteuil says:
    @Vegan Shark

    Handel did produce one fine piece of music. It was so good he wrote it over and over again.

    No, that was Vivaldi. Or, rather, what Stravinsky is supposed to have said about Vivaldi: he didn’t write 500 concertos, he wrote the same concerto 500 times. (False, but funny.)

    Handel was the greatest tune-smith ever:

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  257. vinteuil says:
    @Vegan Shark

    Pardon, mon vieux.

    Извините я не понимаю французский.

  258. Seraphim says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Rossini said that “Wagner has lovely moments but awful quarter-hours”.

  259. vinteuil says:
    @Vegan Shark

    Shostakovich was twice condemned by the authorities: in the mid-’30s following his unorthodox but powerful Fourth Symphony, which he had to suppress; and in 1948, when he and other Soviet composers including Prokofiev were condemned by a government functionary named Zhdanov.

    VS, your heart may be in the right place, but you’re getting the details all wrong. It wasn’t the 4th Symphony that kicked up all the fuss. It was Леди Макбет Мценского уезда (“Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District.”) The 4th Symphony had to wait another 28 years for its first performance in 1962.

    • Replies: @Vegan Shark
  260. @Seraphim

    Don’t worry, this is not for you, it’s for the people capable of thinking.
    Christian faith claims that God is almighty. This means that there is no authority in the Universe higher than this God. Then, who did He sacrifice his son to, except himself?
    Religious myths hardly ever can withstand the application of logic. “Credo quia absurdum” is the norm. But the myth about God sacrificing his son to himself in its monstrous absurdity stands out even among other absurd myths. That’s quite an achievement. But hardly something to be proud of.

    • Replies: @AP
  261. Vojkan says:
    @tac

    I didn’t mention the Fazioli because it is a young brand compared to the three historical manufacturers I listed but I do love its sound. The Steinway and Bechstein, though technical marvels, sound somewhat dry to me whereas the Bösen sounds as if it had a soul. I don’t know the Baldwin so I can’t opine about it.

    • Replies: @Vegan Shark
    , @tac
  262. polistra says: • Website

    The Chinese connection goes beyond performance. For the last 90 years or so, nobody in Europe or America has written any classical music. But Korean and Chinese composers have been writing lots of properly formed music, sometimes with an Oriental harmonic flavor and sometimes plain western. It’s good work, carrying on the ‘nationalist romantic’ tradition from Dvorak .

    • Replies: @macilrae
  263. tamo says:
    @Richard B

    Another BS from a person suffering from the delusion of self-importance, LOL !!!!

    • Replies: @Richard B
  264. vinteuil says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    It’s kind of amazing how much good stuff DSCH managed to squeeze in between the cracks, here.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  265. More barking at the moon. Res ipsa loquitur. As the writer says at the beginning, classical music alone proves white superiority, just in case looking around the room or looking out the window at every important invention, all made by whites, doesn’t suffice. If the simple subject of IQ weren’t taboo, and whom do we thank for that censure, there would no longer be any mystery about who’s who and who’s not. But as long as whites cower in corners, we can expect much more of the same calumny. When we started apologizing instead of butt-kicking, we lost our way. I don’t know how we rediscover the path. It needs to be soon, or the Old Testament tales will regain a sudden familiarity.

    • Replies: @tamo
  266. tamo says:
    @harryslide

    It’s true that Euro whites’ contribution in science and technology are outstanding in the last 250 years. But before the Industrial Revolution, China was ahead of Europe in technology.

    I’m going to list some of Chinese inventions that were transmitted to and thus revolutionized Europe:

    paper, printing( block and movable type), compass, gun, cannon, rocket(including multi-stage ones), mines( both land and sea), bomb, hand grenade( can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions?), coking coal, cast iron, blast furnace,so called Bessemer Steel Process, Siemens Steel Process, drilling technologies for oil and gas, etc.

    According to Robert Temple, a noted sinologist, more than half of the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution, came from China. Also there is a good chance that China will be a technological superpower again by 2040.

  267. @Commentator Mike

    Well, I agree when I’m well-fed & clothed thanks to inventions of modern technology. Otherwise … if we speak of these old guys, Heraclitus seems to have been closer to reality than Lao Tzu …

    Homer was wrong in saying: “Would that strife might perish from among gods and humans!” He did not see that he was praying for the destruction of the universe; for, if his prayer were heard, all things would pass away.…

    We must know that war is common to all and strife is justice, and that all things come into being through strife…

    War is the father of all and the king of all; and some he has made gods and some humans, some bond and some free.

  268. @vinteuil

    One of the best and often only way to tell if a person is famous for good (honorable) reasons is consulting Wikipedia where, in the 1st paragraph of the article, the monitors of Wiki will tell you he was born of Jewish parents. Whereas if he or she are (or were) notorious spies like Junius & Ethel Rosenburg or Johnathon Pollard, or crooks like Berny Madoff and Mark Rich, their ethninticty (if mentioned at all) will be found at or near the end of the article.

  269. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Okay, you are clueless about many things but here you offer the arguments of a schoolchild.

    Christianity cannot be separated from classical music (or indeed, western civilization in general), despite what Sovoks taught you.

    BTW in Vienna I went to a wonderful High Mass by Haydn, performed by choir, strings, soloists, at the Augustinian Church. It was this one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_Sancti_Nicolai

    • Agree: 95Theses
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  270. @vinteuil

    I’d actually really like to know what music you love the most.

    Okay, cool.

    It’s really hard to say sometimes because I don’t listen to music in the same way that most people seem to these days, where it always on—in the car, in the grocery store, and the ear buds always in. I can’t stand wires and stuff poking into my ears, so I don’t ever wear ear buds; and if I’m driving around in the car I always listen to audio books rather than music.

    When I actually sit down to listen to a piece of music, I actually listen to it. That is, I give it my full attention and I don’t do anything else. Because the impression is so strong, a single song can stay stuck in my head for days. By getting rid of the extraneous elements of mood and personal experience, I can often go back to a song that I haven’t heard in years, by an artist I never really cared for, and still appreciate the musicality of it. For instance, I’ve recently done this with Ozzy Osbourne. I don’t care for the man or his musical subculture, but Crazy Train has some decent licks.

    So, I have to be very careful in judging favorites. I am almost tempted to say that any song I’m really listening to at the time is my favorite for that moment. But since that doesn’t explain much, I’ll try to penetrate the deeper levels of taste.

    Classical, of course. I guess I’m particularly inclined towards Vivaldi and Handel maybe.Winter is close enough to my heart to perhaps serve as a personal anthem.

    I like most classic rock and it’s later incarnations up through the early ’90s. Too many bands to name and discuss, really. Progressive rock and ’80s arena rock are definitely up my alley. I don’t much care for Elvis. I never got into heavy metal or grunge. Country I pretty much ignore. Oh, and of course I listen to a lot of film scores.

    One of the more perceptive comments I ever heard anyone make about music is that, the more balanced the personality, the heavier the musical preference. Thus, the guys who listen tho thrash metal, despite their long hair and spiked jackets, tend to be pretty well-adjusted, while those who carry around their own inner sturm und drang incline towards the softer stuff, Eagles and Jackson Browne.

    It definitely applies in my case (I’m in the latter group).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @vinteuil
  271. @AP

    Classical music is so much grander than Christianity that it’s ridiculous even to compare them. It does not matter what the composers thought (Bach and most Baroque composers were convinced that their music glorifies the Christian God), what matters is what the composers created. All religions are based on lies (they are, indeed, opium of the people), whereas great music is the human truth materialized. It’s the same in science: nature does not give a hoot what we think or hypothesize, it is what it is.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @AP
    , @Anonymous
  272. @AP

    here you offer the arguments of a schoolchild

    Wasn’t it a child who honestly said out loud that the king has no clothes? Liars and pretenders must be always wary of children.

  273. @Intelligent Dasein

    I am rather ignorant about rock beyond Beatles. Did Eagles produce anything else comparable to “Hotel California”?

  274. @Mr. Wales

    ” Hendrix was an incredible musician”

    If you take into consideration the legions of excellent jazz guitarists, Barney kessel, Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, Django, Jimmy Raney, Mundell lowe, and on and on, he was by no stretch of the imagination on their level.

    AJM

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @macilrae
  275. @macilrae

    Chapeau and dittos a thousand time over. I was beginning to think that I am the one who is aware of this sad phenomena, which can be traced in part to the idolization of such horrid off-key masters as Lou Reed, Leonard Cohen, Neal Young, and too many others which I do not have the gumption to list now.

    In Italy everyone, every single living and breathing human bean can to this day carry a tune and in quite an impressive manner, Germans can still sing, along with French and believe it or not UK folks.

    Whoever came up with the the auto-tune device should be banned to an Island for fifty years,with only a collection of Lou Reed for diversion.

    AJM

    • Replies: @turtle
  276. Dmitry says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Sure, if there is some meaningful connection (spiritually, culturally, etc).

    For example, Tchaikovsky is a pinnacle of Russian culture, and all who belong to the Russian music world and Russian culture sphere.

    Obviously Russian music world will include a lot of non-Russian ethnicities though, even the majority of the most famous musicians in Russian classical music from the second half of the 20th century: e.g. Sviatoslav Richter (German), Leonid Kogan (Jewish), Emil Gilels (Jewish), David Oistrakh (Jewish), Rostropovich (Pole), etc, etc (dozens more examples).

    So, for people part of the Russian world, to be proud of Tchaikovsky – this makes a lot of sense, and is part of ethnic (or superethnic) pride. This is a result of spiritual and cultural connection specific to this music world.

    However, for an American white redneck to be proud of Tchaikovsky? And for him to use Tchaikovsky in his conflict with American black rednecks? And to say that he has more connection to Tchaikovsky than Yo-Yo Ma, or that Yo-Yo Ma cannot access the music (even though Yo-Yo Ma plays Tchaikovsky better than any of us can dream of ever playing him).

    This is some kind of nihilism and idiocy.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @vinteuil
  277. @tamo

    You forgot one more thing: china was invented in China (surprise, surprise!), then the technology was stolen by the Brits.

    • Replies: @tamo
  278. Mr. Hack says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    I’d definitey place Pat Metheny and Al Dimeola on your pantheon of alltime great jazz guitarists too.

    Jimi Handrix, IMHO, also merits a spot on this platform too. Especially his first three albums with the ‘Experience’. I think very highy of his ‘Electric Ladyland’ album and place it right up there at the top of the most important and exciting pop albums of the 1960’s including the Beatles ‘Sargeant Peppers’ and Pink Floyd’s ‘Dark Side of the Moon’. Give it another listen…

  279. Bliss says:

    Classical music is one of the crowning glories of Western civilization, and White people have every right to take proud in their race’s achievements in the genre, and to cite these achievements as motivation for pro-White activism.

    But the biggest name in European classical music is Beethoven. Even the anthem of the European Union is his composition:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthem_of_Europe

    “Anthem of Europe” is the organisational anthem of the Council of Europe and the European Union. It is based on “Ode to Joy” from the final movement of Beethoven’s 9th Symphony composed in 1823, and is played on official occasions by both organisations…..Beethoven was generally seen as the natural choice for a European anthem.

    Unfortunately for your racial supremacist fantasies Beethoven was not white:

    Eyewitness testimonies of Beethoven’s physical appearance invariably describe him as non-white:

    The following are physical descriptions of Beethoven from various credible sources including, his lovers, students, teachers, anthropologists, historians, and authors. “Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose.” “ His face reveals no trace of the German…” “Coal-black hair… stood up around his head.” “His somewhat flat, broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small, piercing eyes and swarthy [dark] complexion, pockmarked into the bargain, gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto” “Complexion was brownish, his hair was thick, black, and bristly” “Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish-brown complexion

  280. @Carroll Price

    Allow me to offer a couple of exceptions (you’re mostly correct): Kool and the Gang, Lionel Richie, and dare I say even Michael Jackson’s early solo material. Not sure who wrote the tunes, though.

  281. Bliss says:

    http://www.gutenberg.org needs to share black Beethoven with the world. Anyway, there are other options:

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  282. turtle says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    It is sad that for so many people today, at least in the U.S., music is something to be passively listened to, not something to perform, whatever your tastes or level of ability. Something similar seems to have happened with sports. Not everyone has succumbed, of course, but too many Americans have reduced, nay, debased, themselves to being only passive consumers, as opposed to active participants, in many aspects of life. There seems to be a perception that if you cannot do something at a “professional” level, you should just give up.
    Needless to say, this was not always so.
    As to why it changed, I refuse to speculate.
    However, it is sad.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  283. Bliss says:

    Curiously, the alleged White supremacist conspiracy that allegedly prevents Blacks and Browns from succeeding in classical music

    This is just unforgivably, brazenly dishonest, and dumb to boot since anyone can google for a few minutes and prove you wrong. For example black Beethoven originally dedicated his famous Kreutzer Sonata to the young black classical music prodigy the violinist and composer George Bridgetower:

    Then there was the amazing all round master of many skills: sports, athletics, dancing, romancing, martial arts and classical music, the Black Mozart Chevalier de Saint-Georges of France:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_de_Saint-Georges

    Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges (December 25, 1745 – June 10, 1799)[1] was a champion fencer, classical composer, virtuoso violinist, and conductor of the leading symphony orchestra in Paris.

  284. tamo says:
    @AnonFromTN

    According to Wikipedia, ” In 1712, many of the elaborate Chinese porcelain manufacturing secrets were revealed throughout Europe by the French Jesuit father Francois Xavier d’Entrecolles and soon published in the Lettres édifiantes et curieuses de Chine par des missionnaires jésuites.[32] The secrets, which d’Entrecolles read about and witnessed in China, were now known and began seeing use in Europe.[32]”.

    Also according to Smithonian.com, “In 1848, the British East India Company sent Robert Fortune on a trip to China’s interior, an area forbidden to foreigners. Fortune’s mission was to steal the secrets of TEA horticulture and manufacturing. The Scotsman donned a disguise and headed into the Wu Si Shan hills in a bold act of corporate espionage”.

  285. Bliss says:

    https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/black-composers-who-made-classical-music-history/

    From Scott Joplin to Florence Price, the music of these brilliant composers has too long been neglected in Western classical music tradition.

    Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges (1745 – 1799):

    He also led one of the best orchestras in Europe – Le Concert des Amateurs – and former US president John Adams judged him “the most accomplished man in Europe”.

    Mozart, who at the time of Saint-Georges’ success was struggling to make his own music heard, envied him. There is a popular theory that Mozart, as well as swiping one of Saint-Georges’ ideas in his Sinfonia Concertante, used his jealousy to fuel the creation of the villainous black character Monostatos, who appears in his opera The Magic Flute.

    Florence Price (1887 – 1953)

  286. @AnonFromTN

    All religions are based on lies

    Childish. Just a quote from Paul Johnson’s brief biography of Wittgenstein (from “Heroes”):

    Hence it is not surprising that religion played a poignant part in his life, liable to erupt without warning into obsessive phases, then subside, but remaining always beneath the surface. There was always something monkish about him, practicing poverty, celibacy—but never obedience—and something of the preaching friar too, and the imperious prelate, laying down dogmatic theology ex cathedra. Wittgenstein was never more humble than when sitting barefoot in the bishop’s chair. It is not clear whether he ever believed in God, because God, or rather belief in God, raised propositional definitions of intractable complexity. But he once said: “My type of thinking is not wanted in this present age. I have to swim so strongly against the tide . . . I am not a religious man but I cannot help seeing every problem from a religious point of view.” When he went to his hut in Norway in 1931, he spent his entire time, or so he said on his return, praying—and did no philosophy. What sort of prayers? And for what intention? We do not know. It is possible to write an entire book about the presence of religion in his life, and its intrusion into his work; indeed, it has been done. But at the end of it all, Wittgenstein’s relation to God remains obscure, if indeed it existed at all. He certainly made two points. First, that the idea of God could make a person experience what he called “feeling absolutely safe;” the “state of mind” in which you can say “I am safe, nothing can injure me whatever happens.” Second, he enjoyed the experience summed up in the phrase, “I wonder at the existence of the world.” He relished the idea of “seeing the world as a miracle,” the primary miracle of God. However, Wittgenstein had read St. Augustine’s Confessions, or at least looked into it. He quoted from it, more than once. He thought that what mattered was not so much belief as conduct. The essence of Christianity, he said (as he had had a Catholic upbringing) was not dogma or even prayer but that “our manner of life is different.” He added: “Only if you try to be helpful to other people will you in the end find your way to God.” He did not, I think, find it easy to be helpful to people.

    And old quote from that old moron, C.G.Jung..

    I thank God every day that I have been permitted to experience the reality of the image of God in me. Had that not been so, I would be a bitter enemy of Christianity and of the church. Thanks to this act of grace, my life has meaning and my inner eye was opened to the beauty and grandeur of dogma. No matter what the world thinks of religious experience, the one who has it possesses a great treasure, a source of life, meaning, and beauty, and that has given a new splendor to the world and to mankind. He has a living faith.

    Or even older moron Socrates

    The end of life is to be like God, and the soul following God will be like Him.

    All men’s souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  287. Bliss says:

    https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/black-composers-who-made-classical-music-history/

    From Scott Joplin to Florence Price, the music of these brilliant composers has too long been neglected in Western classical music tradition.

    Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges (1745 – 1799):

    He also led one of the best orchestras in Europe – Le Concert des Amateurs – and former US president John Adams judged him “the most accomplished man in Europe”.

    Mozart, who at the time of Saint-Georges’ success was struggling to make his own music heard, envied him. There is a popular theory that Mozart, as well as swiping one of Saint-Georges’ ideas in his Sinfonia Concertante, used his jealousy to fuel the creation of the villainous black character Monostatos, who appears in his opera The Magic Flute.

    Florence Price (1887 – 1953):

    Florence Price was the first African-American woman to have her music performed by a major symphony orchestra – in 1933.

    Scott Joplin (1868 – 1917):

    Dubbed the ‘King of Ragtime’, Scott Joplin was one of the most important and influential composers at the turn of the 20th century. His ideas around harmony, as well as his complex bass patterns and sporadic syncopation, are still imitated by composers today.

    George Bridgetower (1778 – 1860):

    George Bridgetower was an Afro-European virtuoso violinist and composer whose name you might recognise from Immortal Beloved. He is described in the film as ‘the famous virtuoso from Africa’ – but his father was probably from the West Indes.

    In the scene, he plays Beethoven’s ‘Kreutzer’ Violin Sonata No. 9, a piece that Beethoven formally dedicated to Bridgetower. The scene recounts their real-life falling-out, which culminated in Beethoven withdrawing his dedication over an off-colour remark Bridgetower made about a lady Beethoven knew.

    William Grant Still (1895 – 1978):

    Still’s career is a story of firsts: dubbed ‘The Dean’ of African-American composers, he was the first African American to conduct a major American symphony orchestra, the first to have an opera produced by a major opera company (the New York City Opera), the first to have a symphony (his First Symphony) performed by a leading orchestra, and the first to have an opera performed on national TV.

    Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875 – 1912):

    Referred to by white New York musicians as the ‘African Mahler’, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor…..skilfully married African-American folk music with concert music, composing pieces like his African Suite, African Romances and Twenty-Four Negro Melodies. He is particularly known for his three cantatas based on the epic poem, Song of Hiawatha.

    George Walker (1922 – 2018):

    Walker died on 23 August 2018, and his most famous and performed work remains his Lyric for Strings (1946), a beautifully moving work for string orchestra. He also brought the Chevalier de Saint-Georges’ legacy to our attention in 2010, honouring him in his Foils for Orchestra (Homage à Saint George).

  288. macilrae says:
    @polistra

    Indeed, Koreans shouldn’t be forgotten – they are the musicians of the East: temperamental, hot-blooded and deeply passionate. Vast numbers of their kids can play an instrument – and, because this is a super status-conscious society where there is deep shame and social stigma in inadequacy, the standards of playing are remarkably high. I don’t set up as any sort of virtuoso but, trying out an instrument in a music shop in Seoul, I found myself quickly surrounded by youngsters who wanted to show off their playing – and they did – several putting me to shame.

    There is a tradition of Korean Lyrical Songs dating, I think, to the twenties and thirties, which are reminiscent of Schubert – almost pastiche one might say, but nonetheless elegant and enthralling.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  289. Skeptikal says:
    @contrapunctus

    Germans are the best!

    One reason, I believe, for the and one not mentioned by the author, is that the Germans are also great inventors and mechanics. I don’t think one can separate the development of what we call classical music from the technical developments that resulted in instruments that are used to play classical music.

    Bach played on a harpsichord. That required a knowledge of acoustics to build the box, metallurgy for the strings, and myriad other details.

    Then the pianoforte was invented. It is one of the most intricate machines on earth. Bach was an early proponent (and even agent for selling) the pianoforte, developed by an italian.

    To build, string, tune, and maintain a piano you need both mechanical ability and soul, and extremely acute hearing . Tuning a piano so that all octaves sound good together is an art and a skill (helped nowadays by electronic pitch indicators). And also some mathematical ability because of the complex mathematics of the musical scales. The existence of this instrument depends on technological advances in metallurgy (for the wound and unwound strings), for the elements that support the sound board and transfer vibrations from the strings to it—etc. You get the picture. Then add a beautifully crafted wooden case for both amplification and aesthetic appeal.

    My greatest respect is reserved for those who can sight-read on the piano. These are mental geniuses. of course, they train also for years and their ability rests on a thorough understanding of music theory, gained through years of nt only practice but reflections on the relationships of notes and intervals. Through years of training they have the ability to take in at lightning-quick speed multiple measures of printed music on a page, each instance consisting of multiple lines of notes in complex harmonic and rhythmic relationships (not single lines of notes, as on any other instrument), parse the harmonic relationships, and transfer this info to their hands and play the music. A notch further, and in the stratosphere of musical ability is the ability to transpose on the spot to other keys. Despite the extraordinary intellectual achievement that this represents, in the good old days when a lot of people took piano lessons, many people were trained to do this. That shifts the spotlight then to the realm of pedagogy.

    Of course any good jazz musician can do this, and a thought to the point of “instinct” grasp of music theory—the harmonic structure of and relationships between keys— is the essence of improvisation, the ability to move freely around this whole system at will. This is why—as I have read—the best jazz musicians come from a classical background. Most classically trained musicians—although they may be able to transpose written music to different keys—do not have the ability to improvise. This improvisational ability was one of the hallmarks of Mozart’s musical genius, which inspired awe and incredulity. Of course, Mozart had been trained in music on a virtually militaristic disciplinary model since about the age of two. By his father, also a professional musician. So, these “genius” abilities don’t come out of nowhere. Practice, practice, practice . . . Genius can only be expressed on an ultra-firm foundation of *chops.*

    As far as I can make out, other cultures’ instruments come down to various iterations of a stringed box, and some kind of percussion outfit. I do feel that the complexity of rhythms to be found in certain other cultures’ music deserves respect and is probably beyond the ability of most Western-trained musicians to “get.”

    However, the main point of this comment is that the development of the Western classical tradition was closely intertwined with the development of technology (and understanding of the math and the physics of sound production). It also seems that this advanced technology permitted the development of music of a complexity that engaged the emotions in ever less obvious, more mysterious ways.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  290. @Bardon Kaldian

    but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine

    That sounds Buddhist (or Mormonic, if you want to remain in semi-Christian world). Anyway, Socrates predates Christianity by centuries.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  291. Sparkon says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Yes, many great composers but none came close to matching Haydn’s output.

    Mozart – 40 symphonies
    Tchaikovsky – 7 symphonies
    Beethoven – 9 symphonies
    Bach – 19 concertos
    Brahms – 4 symphonies
    ——————————
    Total – 79

    Haydn – 107 symphonies, up from 104

    ~

    Now it is the 4th of July and time for a stirring march by John Philip Sousa:

    Stars and Stripes Forever
    National March of the United States of America
    Boston Pops Orchestra
    John Williams

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  292. Skeptikal says:
    @authenticjazzman

    “Bach , as all of his German musical compatriots including first off Amadeus Mozart, derived his musical knowledge and aesthetic from the Italian school. ‘

    That may be and I would never denigrate “the Italian school.” (not sure what it is: Vivaldi?) However, I do believe that “the Italian school” had the greatest influence on Mozart’s operas.

    Many of the movements of classical sonatas are based on minuets and other folk dances that were indigenous to Germany and Austria. In both form and melody. Italy, Austria, Bohemia, Hungary all kind of “ran together” at that time, so perhaps there is no firm line between, say, Austrian and Italian.

    It is beyond question that the great “classical” composers all drew heavily on folk music, also church music, much of which derived from folk music and folk songs. Never underestimate the native musical talent and invention of the common people of any culture. Where these musical folk traditions end up is probably largely a question of the social and technological profiles of the respective societies.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  293. Skeptikal says:
    @Republic

    Unfortunately that torture chamber already discribes much of modern life. CNN playing constantly, in terminals, on ferries . . .

  294. @vinteuil

    It wasn’t the 4th Symphony that kicked up all the fuss. It was Леди Макбет Мценского уезда (“Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District.”)

    Ah yes, point taken. It was the opera Леди Макбет Мценского уезда that triggered Stalin or one of his henchmen to call it “muddle instead of music.” Poor Dmitri knew what was good for him and, as you say, filed the Fourth Symphony in a desk drawer for decades. But one of the remarkable things about him is that while he turned to ostensibly patriotic pro-Soviet symphonies, they remained strongly conceived and original. Plus his chamber music, which I guess the authorities didn’t think worth bothering themselves about, continued to be musically if not politically subversive.

  295. Skeptikal says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    “I hesitate”

    Yes, please do. Your pedantry, patronizing tone, and have-to-be-right-ism are really quite tiresome.

  296. Anonymous[729] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bliss

    This is one of those dumb ideas that has been given new life by the Internet. No serious scholar or biographer of Beethoven (and there have been a lot of them) takes it seriously.

    What’s more, it’s been rejected explicitly by Dominique-Rene de Lerma, the leading expert on blacks/Africans in classical music:

    http://africlassical.blogspot.com/2007/12/dominique-ren-de-lerma-beethoven-as.html

    Here’s a comprehensive list of composers of African descent. Beethoven is not on it:

    http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/Others.html

    Your Classic FM link about black composers doesn’t list Beethoven either. Furthermore, the Ira Brilliant Center for Beethoven Studies at San Jose State (which has an authentic lock of Beethoven’s hair) doesn’t believe it either:

    http://www.sjsu.edu/beethoven/research/faq_beethoven/

  297. Skeptikal says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Wow, a whole reading list.
    What a joke.
    What a conceited ass.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  298. Skeptikal says:
    @Wally

    Someone here mentioned that phenomenon of putting down on your betters.

    So, stop flapping your untalented and untrained jaws re Mendelssohn.

    • Replies: @Wally
  299. @Vojkan

    The Steinway and Bechstein, though technical marvels, sound somewhat dry to me whereas the Bösen sounds as if it had a soul.

    Interesting. I believe the pianos I’ve heard played in concert halls have all been Steinways. I do read the technical notes for the recordings in my collection and will start paying attention to the type of instrument used. As of now I don’t think I can tell any difference among different pianos (except, of course, for pianofortes and other historical models).

    Pianophiles can rejoice that recording technology has now, at its best, gotten pretty close to reproducing the real sound of the instrument (if you have the playback equipment for it). The usual audiophile labels (Chandos, Hyperion, BIS, Channel Classics, Pentatone, etc.) stand out. The German label Audite may be the ultimate for honest piano tone.

  300. Skeptikal says:
    @DCBillS

    “Handel made his living by producing marketable music. Bach by pleasing his patron. The free market wins again.”

    I think this is wrong. Haendel also had to please his patrons.
    He had a series of them, in German cities and then in England.
    Bach’s patron was the St. Thomas church in Leipzig.
    Well, ultimately I think this meant that his patron was the Elector of Saxony.
    All of these composers had to figure out how to get paid.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  301. Skeptikal says:
    @Biff

    Vinteuil’s comment shows that he is an ignoramus, unable to understand what Biff is getting at (although Biff does make it too complicated). howver, IMO Biff shows that he grasps the basic features of Western music , what it actually consists of, what makes it different, and and what in the end is the source of its power. It is, finally, a very complex system, and tool. One of the greatest emotional tools in music composition is the movement from key to key and the charge that that creates. It is a mystery, yet it is a tool that is consciously manipulated by composers (along with others, of course—but I think it might be the most powerful).

    IMHO the greatest master of modulation and use of continual transformation of tonality was Franz Schubert. Just listen to any one of his sonatas—say, this one, played by Alfred Brendel (playing a Steinway, not a Bosendorfer, *the* Viennese mark):

    You will get the charge in the first two minutes.

    Brendel was a true child of the multicultural Austrian Empire. A fascinating background:
    http://alfredbrendel.com/lifeandcareer.php

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @tac
    , @vinteuil
  302. Skeptikal says:
    @Skeptikal

    Here is a wonderful description of an aspect of Brendel’s personality:

    He is fascinated with the grotesque and the fantastic, and collects kitsch, primitive masks and newspaper bloopers. “He and his wife really have a large circle of friends,” observes one of them, Professor Bernard Williams, “people who do lots of different things and one sees a lot of interesting people, and he gives everybody a lot not just by his playing but by his conversation and by the kind of friendship he offers. But I think he gets quite a lot out of it too. There’s a saying that he’s rather fond of, that ‘Humour is the sublime in reverse’. I think that does catch an aspect of his thought. He thinks that, as it were, certain kinds of jokes, certain kinds of paradox are actually the deepest way of representing important things.”* Listing “laughing” as his favourite occupation, his 1984 Darwin Lecture at Cambridge University dealt with the subject ***”Does classical music have to be entirely serious?” and his playing shows a rare talent for highlighting unexpected elements of humour, particularly in Haydn and Beethoven. ****

  303. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    What Bardon said. Plus:

    Classical music is so much grander than Christianity that it’s ridiculous even to compare them. It does not matter what the composers thought (Bach and most Baroque composers were convinced that their music glorifies the Christian God), what matters is what the composers created.

    This is like praising the flower but denigrating the seed. Very stupid.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  304. @Anonymous

    Wow, you are so wrong in so many ways. First, leftist group identity politics is hardly a response to right-wing racism. While group identity will always play some kind of a political role, “racism”(or anti-racism) as an ideology came out of the Jewish left in this country.

    Second, everyone joining in identity politics is not a race to the bottom. The race to the bottom occurs when everyone joins in group identity except one, which is not allowed. That’s when society goes off the rails.

    Third, “race” is, as Sailer says: a huge slightly inbred extended family. So, why avoid “racism”? We don’t avoid family-ism.

    Try the following thought experiment:

    You are a white guy walking down the street. You turn the corner and are confronted by a man beating a woman. The woman is pleading for help. What’s your first instinct? Go to the woman’s assistance, right?

    Now you are a white man walking down the street , you turn the corner and are confronted by two men beating two women. Both are pleading for help.One is white and one is black. All else being equal, what’s your first response.?

    Paralysis, right? Either choice can be reduced to a racial calculus.

    Now, you are a white guy walking down the street. You turn the corner and are confronted by two men beating two women. Both are pleading for help. One of them is your mother. What’s your first instinct? Help your mother, right? It doesn’t mean you hate the other woman. Or that you won’t help her too. But your mother takes precedence. And there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you would seem something like a monster if you DIDN’T help you mother first.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  305. @tamo

    Chinese inventions:

    Paper money
    China
    Silk
    Rudder
    Stirrups
    Pasta
    Compass
    Coal burning
    Paper
    Printing
    Gunpowder

    • Replies: @tamo
    , @anon
  306. The Europe of Beethoven and Debussy has nothing in common with the excrement called fEU.

    Contemporary Europeans are the most imbecilic people history has ever produced.

    For my part, Sweden is the most disgusting country in our time.

  307. @vinteuil

    Handel was indeed the greatest tunesmith ever.

    That he was the master of them all was the opinion of many of his peers; surely their opinion is weightier than that of anybody here.

  308. @Vegan Shark

    He defended Israel against Islam, and we should all agree with him about that.

    But his defence of his people had nothing to do with their religion. He became a Protestant of some sort early in life, and a Catholic just days (hours even) before his death.

    A sad loss; a great man.

    • Agree: vinteuil
  309. tamo says:
    @Thales the Milesian

    Yes, they are all Chinese inventions and there are a lot more Chinese inventions that changed the world before the Industrial Revolution.

    In the 17th century, Francis Bacon, an esteemed British scientist and statesmen stated that up to that moment, the most important inventions in the human history were gunpowder, compass. printing. All these are Chinese inventions. But Bacon didn’t know that.

  310. @Sparkon

    However, Haydn symphonies tended to be rather short (like most Baroque pieces), whereas later symphonies became much longer.
    Bach produced so much music that by productivity he can easily compare to Haydn.

    Happy 4th of July, anyway!

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  311. @Skeptikal

    Most, but not all. Albinoni was independently wealthy and composed whatever he liked. His music is just as beautiful and sophisticated as Bach’s. So, talent wins, whereas naked market produces warhols of Campbell soup fame.

  312. Parfois1 says:
    @Anonymous

    Yes, the oldest and best expressions of art were European. The “Sistine Chapels” of cave paintings at Lascaux and Northern Iberia are proof of it, the skill probably learned from further (partial) ancestors, the Neanderthals, in their last refugia before extinction. The artistic tradition of Europe is that old!

    • Replies: @tamo
    , @Anonymous
  313. @AP

    Sorry to point out an elementary thing, but music is human, not divine. Not a single piece of music composed by any of thousands of gods worshipped by men exists.

  314. Here is a version of Metallica’s power ballad Fade to Black performed as a classical piece on piano.

    Pretty impressive bit of song writing when you hear it presented this way:

  315. @Commentator Mike

    Of course the trumpet came from an animal horn,like the rams horn. On Rosh Hashanah ( Lot? Jack D?) the jews blow the rams horn,or shofar,which some cheekily refer to as blowing the chauffeur.
    But obv. it was white men who created the trumpet.

  316. tamo says:
    @Parfois1

    Hey, get off this euro-centric BS. According to Wikipedia, in November 2018, scientists reported the discovery of the oldest known figurative art painting, over 40,000 (perhaps as old as 52,000) years old, of an unknown animal, in the cave of Lubang Jeriji Saléh on the Indonesian island of Borneo.
    These Indonesian cave painting are older than the European ones found in France or Spain.

    • Replies: @Richard B
  317. @AnonFromTN

    That music is “divine” is a metaphoric expression, not a fact.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  318. @Old Palo Altan

    Beethoven said:

    “I bend my knee to Handel for he is the greatest composer than ever lived.”

  319. Skeptikal says:
    @Vojkan

    One obvious part of the explanation for the association between Jews and the violin:
    Violin is easy to carry around.
    It is central to in Central and Eastern European musical traditions (incorporating obviusly gypsy, Romanian, Hungarian, Slavic strains). Probably partly because it is so portable.

    Piano is expensive, heavy instrument that takes up a lot of space. Especially, obviously, a grand (as opposed to upright).
    It must be tuned and maintained by professional technician, etc. and can hardly be moved around.
    Of course it is easier to move a grand than an upright.
    Still it is amazing that Chopin had his Erard around with him.

    Violin is light, can be carried around in a small case, is tuned by the player himself, strings can be replaced by player himself, etc.

  320. Parfois1 says:
    @Bliss

    Unfortunately for your racial supremacist fantasies Beethoven was not white:

    I also heard Jesus Christ was also a negro, hence God himself must be negro as well and, since man was created an image of God, we are all negroes. Besides, since modern humans descend from African hominids, then it all fits together.

    Of course, nothing of the above is true, including the “out of Africa” tale, as new discoveries indicate that the first hominids (Graecopithecus) originated in … Europe, of all places!

    So, Ludwig was of European ancestry after all.

  321. Skeptikal says:
    @tac

    “figure the common denominator of those and their rise to ‘prominence’ and you’ll know why–aside from sole quality” Do you mean they were Jewish?
    Or do you mean that they were German?

    “I don’t think Carl Bechstein was Jewish, if that is what you mean.

    “Im Geburts- und Taufregister der **Kirche zu St. Margareten** lesen wir dazu: “Carl Friedrich Wilhelm, 3. Kind, erster Sohn des weiland Herrn Friedrich Wilhelm August Bechstein, Bürgers und Friseurs hier, und dessen Ehefrau, weiland Christiane Ernestine Auguste, geborenen Reißing, ist den ersten Juni, früh vier Uhr, …1826 geboren und am achten Juni desselben Jahres getauft.”

    re Bluethner, I see no evidence that Julius Bluethner was Jewish. The company appears not to have been aryanized during the Third Reich and the company name was not changed until it was taken over by the DDR (https://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/46/Julius-Bl-thner-Pianofortefabric-GmbH.html) and turned into a VEB.

    re Steinway, I see no evidence that the company was founded by a Jew. Heinrich Steinweg seems to have been a citizen of the Duchy of Brunswick and attended a public school and volunteered in the armed forces of the Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbuettel. Doesn’t look like a Jewish bio to me.

  322. Skeptikal says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    “dentifying with one’s own ethnic group”

    Erm, white is not an ethnic group.
    For heaven’s sake.
    German is an ethnic group. I am proud to associate myself with my German forebears whose achievements in music are unmatched.
    All of the mountain peaks rest on the foothills of music. In Germany a broad musical culture that included the common people, educated and aristocratic strata, the church (Lutheran in the case of Bach) nurtured the journeymen musicians and the geniuses and created the environment in which they could develop their talents and find payment for their work.

    French, Italian, Polish, Dutch, Swedish, etc. are all white but are not one ethnic group. Maybe you think that if you are white and speak English, then you are in an ethnic group defined by language.
    Only in America could someone come up with the stupid idea that white is an ethnic group.
    And you know what, black also is not an ethnic group. Blacks also speak Engish.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  323. tac says:
    @Vojkan

    Let me see if I can kill three birds with one stone (non-white pianist performing the classical work of a non-white composer on a Fazioli).

    A very understated and world-class pianist was Cuban/Spanish composer Ernesto Lecuoma. Although many of this pieces were of Cuban flavor there are many that stand out as Classical (inspired by the Romantic era). ‘Ante el Escorial’ and ‘Malagueña’ (composed by Lecuoma) are two such masterful works as performed by Cuban concert pianist Beatriz Boizan on a Fazioli concert grand:

    ‘Ante el Escorial’ (Ernesto Lecuona) performed by: Beatriz Boizan:

    ‘Malagueña’ (Ernesto Lecuona) performed by: Beatriz Boizan :

    ***Here is a rare treat–when a composer is recorded playing his own compositions)***
    Ernesto Lecuona plays Lecuona – Malaguena & Andalucia:

  324. Bliss says:

    Brenton Sanderson the megalomaniac:

    everyone is well aware that the achievements of White people in countless cultural and scientific domains surpass those of other groups, and can objectively be regarded as “superior.” A conspicuous example is the Western musical tradition.

    For your information ignoramus, the western musical tradition can be traced back to ancient Egypt, like much if not most of European culture. Ancient Greece is the Mother and Ancient Egypt is the Grandmother of Western Civilization:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheironomy

    Cheironomy (or Chironomy) is a form of music conducting, typically with choral music and choral groups (choirs), where the use of hand gestures directs musical performance.

    Early music (vocal church music), as far back as the 5th century, required some central direction from a leader in the coordination of singers in their delivery of melodic lines of mostly free rhythm. Traced back to early Egyptian performances through hieroglyphic documentation (etchings in stone depicting a leader employing hand signals to indicate pitch and rhythm details for wind instrument players), this form of conducting seems to predate Guido of Arezzo’s designation of joints of the fingers for indicating pitches, and seems to have offered more than limited pitch instruction.

    Cheironomy……is still in use in the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church (despite a decline of chant in the late twentieth century), of some Middle Eastern sects and in synagogues to direct the singing of liturgical songs (Hebrews probably learned cheironomy from Egyptians), and, more rarely, in some ancient Western religions.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  325. tac says:
    @Skeptikal

    Certainly Franz Schubert’s monumental Piano Sonatas speak to such achevments in his unique harmonic tones, sonority and modulation one must also hear his Impromptus–which are a shorted but which bring into light his unique mastery (on a smaller scale than his Piano Sonatas although similar to Chopin’s Nocturnes yet quite different). These are four each of D. 899 and D. 935. It is truly a shame that he died at a young age of almost 32.

    Impromptu No. 3 in G-Flat Major, Op. 90, D. 899:

    Impromptu No. 2 in E-Flat Major, Op. 90, D. 899:

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Skeptikal
  326. @turtle

    One reason home improvement shows have become so popular with lazy people who never get around to doing anything constructive is that simply by watching the show, they acquire a feeling of accomplishment as if they actually participated in the project. I suspect most sports fans watch sports on TV (particularly contact sports) for the same reason.

    • Replies: @turtle
  327. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080406120734/http://www.rakkav.com/biblemusic/pages/chironomy.htm

    Chironomy has more visual documentation in Egypt than anywhere else in the ancient world; some specialists believe the art was likely invented there. It is found portrayed on the mastabas (monuments) and in the tombs of many of the ancient Pharaohs. Evidently the system of chironomy used remained essentially the same across many centuries, beginning with the Old Kingdom.

    Chironomy in Egypt was not limited to the conducting of instrumental music. In the “Song of the Nile”, we are told, “men sing to you with the hand” (Hickmann, cited by Haïk-Vantoura, op. cit., pp. 71, 91). This may refer to the section leaders only; Manniche remarks that the ensemble leader (when he seems to be singing) may have been simply “miming the notes and willing the orchestra to produce a particular quality of sound” (op. cit., p. 30). She then adds this evocative comment: “The short texts written above the ensemble refer to the action of the players: ‘striking the harp’, ‘blowing the pipe’, and so on. The chironomist is said to be ‘singing’ to the harp, flute or clarinet. The word for ‘singing’ is qualified by a hieroglyph in the form of a human arm, not, as we would perhaps expect, with an ear or pair of lips. But to a deaf person today a gesture would immediately suggest a good substitute for sound, and as far as ancient music is concerned we must indeed use our eyes rather than our ears” (emphasis mine).

    Chironomy, like the music it conducted, found its way into all major contexts of Egyptian life: the priestly, the courtly and the popular, none of which were ever divided wholly from the religious. Chironomy even had a divine connection in the Egyptian mind. “On a rather intellectual level, a goddess called Merit was considered to be the personification of music, although she never became a goddess of the people with cult chapels of her own. It says something about the Egyptians’ desire to express their music visually that she was a ‘chironomist goddess’, whose major task was to establish cosmic order by means of her song and gestures” (op. cit., p. 57, emphasis mine). But Merit’s task also testifies of the precision of Egyptian chironomy, and to the nobility of the music which it conducted.

  328. Seraphim says:
    @Bliss

    Beethoven was called the ‘Spaniard’ on account of his dark complexion. Wouldn’t you rather think that he had Sephardi ancestry? Entirely plausible in view of the family relations with the Low Countries.

  329. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @Parfois1

    The artistic tradition of Europe is that old!

    No it’s not. You go back that far, it’s no longer “Europe”.

    And Spain and France are not cradles of civilization that gave birth to seminal cultures.

    This is like bragging that you used to make the best mud cakes when you were 3. The form, texture, density, symmetry — genius!

    Maybe these cave paintings are the “best” (from what we’ve discovered). But that’s absolutely meaningless insofar as it reflects on later European civilization.

    Western Europe was a LAGGARD and inherited the richness originally created ELSEWHERE. Interesting things happened first in other places.

    What’s more, what is the racial connection between people 20000 years ago and to what later came to be known as “Europe”? Aren’t “white” people the result of many waves of outside migrations?

    The oldest pottery was once thought to come from Japan about 15K years ago. Should modern Japanese take credit for that?

    Isn’t it a stretch to take credit for something that happened 20K years ago?

  330. @AnonFromTN

    You inferred that any type of strong religious impulse is something fake & at best a delusion (my interpretation). I happen to disagree.

    Johnson on Wittgenstein, again:

    Fourth, he developed a detestation of science, or rather, of scientism. As he put it in the Blue Book, great damage was done when philosophers “see the method of science before their eyes and are irresistibly tempted to ask and answer questions in the way that science does.” He thought scientific method particularly inappropriate in aesthetics and religion. He had harsh things to say about works of popular science, such as James Jeans’s The Mysterious Universe, which he categorized as “idol worship,” the idol being “science and the scientist.” What he would have said about the present university climate of scientism, promoted by TV dons such as Richard Dawkins, makes the mind reel. In this respect, as in others, he stood for the old high culture of taste and discernment which had been central to European civilization for a thousand years, and was now threatened by a horrific new kind of materialism.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  331. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @White Monkey

    While he admitted to stealing from the Indian Upanisiads,what came up with was remarkably close to Buddhism.

    Kant and Schopenhauer are facsimiles, but miss the mark.

    The “Great Will” reminds me of “Mind” in Buddhism. But it’s off. Malformed and misshapened.

  332. @AnonFromTN

    And, it is weird to evaluate worth of one’s work just by taking into account the sheer amount of it. That would make Barbara Cartland much greater author than, say, Emily Bronte.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  333. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @vinteuil

    And there is also no other people who have ever felt a moment’s regret about spilling blood in pursuit of their collective interests.

    Regret (later) accompanied by (ongoing) commission.

    How do you define “collective interest”? Is everything permissible in the pursuit of tribal interests? Should ethics temper collective interests? Or only power and threat of destruction/mutual destruction?

  334. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    All religions are based on lies

    You mean, based on truth and turned into lies.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  335. One of my favorite Classical pieces is Claire De Lune by Debussy.

    Maybe a tiny bit off topic but related: I recently saw the movie Mary Magdalene (played by Rooney Mara). Peter was played by a Black actor. One other Apostle was also Black. LOL – I wasn’t expecting it so it was pretty stunning to watch this politically correct version of Jesus and his Team.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  336. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Second, everyone joining in identity politics is not a race to the bottom. The race to the bottom occurs when everyone joins in group identity except one, which is not allowed. That’s when society goes off the rails.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right, as they say.

    Identity politics is a cancer. You don’t cure the cancer by adding more cancer.

    Instead, you should appeal to patriotism, native rights and sovereignty. Argue for our collective right to exist, as a nation and people, including some as black and some as white.

    Third, “race” is, as Sailer says: a huge slightly inbred extended family. So, why avoid “racism”? We don’t avoid family-ism.

    I agree. However, families are not defined entirely by blood but also marriage. It’s a closed and open-system based on agreement and invitation.

    Race is inherently closed and discriminating.

    Ethnicity is a better comparison to families. It is both shut and porous. It keeps aliens out and invites friends in.

    Now you are a white man walking down the street , you turn the corner and are confronted by two men beating two women. Both are pleading for help.One is white and one is black. All else being equal, what’s your first response.?

    In general, aid the woman in most need of help.

    Now, you are a white guy walking down the street. You turn the corner and are confronted by two men beating two women. Both are pleading for help. One of them is your mother. What’s your first instinct? Help your mother, right? It doesn’t mean you hate the other woman. Or that you won’t help her too. But your mother takes precedence. And there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you would seem something like a monster if you DIDN’T help you mother first.

    My mom takes precedence, but other factors could also come into play.

    It’s not that simple. What if the other woman is a young child? Or a very old woman? Can I save only 1 or possibly both? Do I know the other woman?

    There’s a difference between race and friends/family. We don’t live in tribal societies. We don’t make these decisions exclusively on phenotype.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  337. @Bliss

    Bliss:
    Maybe you’ve been over exposed to the media’s Black blitz?

    It’s become all the rage to have blacks everywhere. Blacks are on everything these days, from commercials, magazine ads, internet news clips, we see blacks, blacks, blacks and more blacks. They are everywhere. Businesses are using Black models to represent their companies. A city bus goes by with photos of Black faces. Currency is being re-designed with a black face. Pretty soon Every major King and Queen that ruled in Europe from the year 1 b.c. will be black. All legends must be rewritten as well. King Arthur was very Black and Guinevere had an Afro.

    I just recently saw the new movie out about Mary Magdalene with Roony Mara playing Mary. Amazingly, Peter and another Apostle are played by black men! It’s going way overboard…

  338. Biff says:

    It’s Italian

  339. Wally says:
    @Skeptikal

    Mendelssohn was a juvenile hack, a definite case of arrested development. Who, as I said, gets praise that he doesn’t deserve just because he was a Jew.

    Go take a nap.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  340. Wally says:
    @turtle

    – My ‘anti-Jewish prejudice? LOL
    Another hasbarist has spoken.

    You really mean my fighting back against the false version of history that is shoved down everyone’s throats by proven liars, Zionists.
    I also note you cannot, have not refuted what I have posted in that regard.

    – I remind you that you are http://www.unz.com where the truth about Jews is not banned, which of course is what you prefer.

    – And yes the issue is Mendelssohn’s falsely praised childish work, he is but one example of Jews being praised because they are Jews.

    – Slobbering, gushing Bernstein was laughed at as a conductor. Listen to him conducting just about anything and compare the same music when conducted by others; notice Bernstein’s clumsy, rushed, hyperventilating & awkward manner.

    • LOL: turtle
  341. @AnonFromTN

    It depends on how you define “human” & “divine”. If you have time to waste:

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  342. Richard B says:
    @tamo

    Another Triggered Troll suffering from Dunning-Kruger Effect.

    • Replies: @tamo
  343. Richard B says:
    @tamo

    What a silly troll. Your Euro-envy is pathetic – and obvious.

    • Replies: @tamo
  344. tamo says:
    @Richard B

    You are a low-iq moron with head in the butt disease, LOL !!!

  345. @Dmitry

    However, for an American white redneck to be proud of Tchaikovsky?

    Not a typical redneck, but a gay redneck ….. hmmm….

  346. @Bliss

    For your information ignoramus, the western musical tradition can be traced back to ancient Egypt, like much if not most of European culture.

    Hmmmmm….

    http://skepdic.com/afrocent.html

    Afrocentrism is a pseudohistorical political movement that erroneously claims that African-Americans should trace their roots back to ancient Egypt because it was dominated by a race of black Africans. Some of Afrocentrism’s other claims are: the ancient Greeks stole their main cultural achievements from black Egyptians; Jesus, Socrates and Cleopatra, among others, were black; and Jews created the slave trade of black Africans.

    https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/scientists-have-reconstructed-ancient-greek-music-and-you-can-listen-to-it/

    Scientists Have Reconstructed Ancient Greek Music And You Can Listen To It
    …………….

    Meanwhile, an exciting conclusion may be drawn. The Western tradition of classical music is often said to begin with the Gregorian plainsong of the 9th century AD. But the reconstruction and performance of Greek music has demonstrated that ancient Greek music should be recognised as the root of the European musical tradition.

  347. tamo says:
    @Richard B

    You are nothing but a delusional halfwit from a pathetic dying breed.

    • Replies: @Richard B
  348. vinteuil says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Thanks, ID, you’ve given me a lot to explore.

    I wonder what you’d think of my own favorite popular song ever:

  349. macilrae says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    Or if we open our ears and enter a different idiom (so seldom done these days); for sheer dazzling technique there are the flamenco players – who use all of the digits of their right hand – people such as Paco de Lucia or Sabicas who leave even most classical performers in the dust when it comes to physical command of the instrument.

  350. vinteuil says:
    @Dmitry

    Dmitry (if I may) – I’m not sure what you mean by “an American white redneck,” but I’d guess that, by any objective measure, I probably count as one of those awful guys.

    And yet, I feel a pretty close connection to Tchaikovsky, & Richter, & Oistrakh, & Rostropovich.

    Yeah, it’s strange.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  351. vinteuil says:
    @Old Palo Altan

    I think we need to come up with more things to disagree about!

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  352. turtle says:
    @Carroll Price

    Living vicariously through the achievements of others. Never could relate to that, myself.
    Personally? I think participation increases the appreciation of those who are complete masters of their field. If you’ve learned to bang out a few chords yourself, you quickly realize how much better the masters are, but it can inspire greater effort, even knowing you will never reach that level. Achievement is its own reward, in any field. But those who have never tried will never know that satisfaction, and for that, I feel sad for them.

  353. vinteuil says:
    @Skeptikal

    Vinteuil’s comment shows that he is an ignoramus, unable to understand what Biff is getting at (although Biff does make it too complicated).

    Yeah, right – after about fifty years of dealing with this crap.

    Whatever.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  354. @Bardon Kaldian

    My experience in the USSR taught me that any system of beliefs that claims to know the Truth with a capital T, whether it calls itself a religion, science, or ideology, is a pack of lies. Claiming that science knows all ultimate answers is just as false as claiming the same on behalf of any religion. The key difference of real science is that it’s always humble: it offers you the best hypothesis explaining available data, but it never claims that this is the final and 100% true explanation. In this it is the opposite of all religions, communism, liberalism, and their ilk. That’s the only reason why science deserves respect, while the others don’t.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  355. @Bardon Kaldian

    Now, here I have to agree. The quantity does not correlate with quality in any way. Many times more burgers are produced than filet mignons, yet the burger is crap made of “lips and assholes”, whereas filet mignon is really good.

  356. @Anonymous

    You can put it this way. In my book, for a person sincerely believing in all-powerful omniscient God, all organized religions and churches are abominations. You don’t need any intermediaries to communicate with such a being, so all those who claim to be intermediaries are frauds.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  357. @freedom-cat

    Yes, it’s ridiculous, but it is not unique for Christianity. There were monuments to Lenin all over the USSR. In Tatarstan he looked like a Tatar, in Uzbekistan – like an Uzbek, etc.

  358. @Bardon Kaldian

    Sorry, my work does not leave me enough time to read a bunch of books on a topic I am not much interested in. I understand full well that some people psychologically need a father-figure, and any God can serve this purpose, including Christian bearded old man in a night gown. I am just not one of them. I also appreciate that religions have an important social function: they help sheeple tolerate things in life that would have been intolerable otherwise. I just don’t need this.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  359. bookish1 says:
    @tamo

    m going to list some of Chinese inventions that were transmitted to and thus revolutionized Europe:

    paper, printing( block and movable type), compass, gun, cannon, rocket(including multi-stage ones), mines( both land and sea), bomb, hand grenade( can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions?), coking coal, cast iron, blast furnace,so called Bessemer Steel Process, Siemens Steel Process, drilling technologies for oil and gas, etc.

    who in China invented those things. You are assuming it was ethnic Chinese who did all that inventing. The truth is there were Aryan communities in China at the time those things were invented.

    • LOL: tamo
    • Replies: @tamo
  360. Skeptikal says:
    @Wally

    No, you go and take a nap, or something else that rhymes and might relieve your mental constipation.
    I have sung in choruses all of my life, and Mendelssohn’s Elijah is one of the most beautiful, powerful, and fun to learn and sing works that I have experienced.

    Here is a snippet (final section of the oratorio), the BSO at Tanglewood, in case anyone out there might not know this work and might be able to enjoy it without wondering whether he/she shoujld first dump on the composer for being a Jew.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    , @vinteuil
  361. @Skeptikal

    ” My German forebears whose achievements in music are unmatched”

    Yeah we know : “Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen”, and just this “Better than anyone non-German” attitude is what got you neurotic Teutonic “Besserwisser” into so much trouble over the last hundred years.

    Of course no one in their right mind could deny the marvelous creations of the great German masters, however moving forward to this day one can most certainly assert that the achievements of the American Jazz community were and are on a level with the German masters, period.

    Jazz music is and has always been misunderstood by the european art community, which does not realize that this music idiom is actually the manifestation of modern american “Classical” music,
    the title “Jazz” is a misnomer, and has no real meaning.

    The “Works” of one Charlie Parker, or one Stan getz, or one Dizzy Gillespie, or one Cannonball Adderly, or one Artie Shaw, can realistically be compared to the masterpieces of the German, and other european historical masters.

    The arrival of “new” great talent did not end with the Birth of LVB or WAM, or JSB.

    Authenticjazzman ” Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet, and pro jazz artist.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Skeptikal
  362. Skeptikal says:
    @vinteuil

    crap? 50 years spent dealing with crap.
    Huh.

  363. Anonymous[354] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You can put it this way. In my book, for a person sincerely believing in all-powerful omniscient God, all organized religions and churches are abominations.

    Even before “God”, there is something “else” that is “true”. One can say “God” is a lie based on THAT truth. Or a “useful” metaphor/idea to help us navigate the world.

    But remember that anything that we “think” can only be a quasi “truth” or “relative” truth.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  364. @Skeptikal

    ” Never underestimate the native musical talent derived from folk music and folk songs”

    Hey friend I have been performing Jazz music for fifty-plus years, music derived from folk music and folk songs : Tin Pan Alley, and you are telling me something I knew before you were born.

    AJM

  365. Skeptikal says:
    @tac

    “It is truly a shame that he died at a young age of almost 32.”

    Yes. But fortunately, he was incredibly prolific, truly a composition machine. He got up in the morning and started composing and often produced more than one work per day.

    I shall listen to the Impromptus (some of which I know).

    Meanwhile, I think Andras Schiff is also a real Schubert meister, and he has done a marvelous documentary on him (in English, with Hungarian subtitles). Great musical demos of how Schubert melded the three principle registers: a bass line, a melodic line, and various types of ornamentation in the high registers and also insights into the power of Schubert’s music.

    Also available a wonderful master class of maybe an Impromptu by Schiff with an extremely talented student in Vienna.

  366. Richard B says:
    @tamo

    Like I said, Triggered Troll.

    • Replies: @tamo
  367. @vinteuil

    We just have – that awful song you told ID you liked – I’m shocked.

    His list, I’m afraid, showed with embarrassing clarity that music is not his forte.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  368. Mr. Hack says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    Miles Davis once said, “You can tell the history of jazz in four words: Louis Armstrong. Charlie Parker.”

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  369. @Skeptikal

    Mendelssohn was an innocent, in the best sense of the word.

    He points to what a properly integrated (i. e. converted) Jewish race could have been within Christendom.

    The secularist Jews try to claim him as their own, but their hearts aren’t in it. Christ has made him one of ours, and they cannot forgive him that.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  370. Glock45 says:
    @NobodysaysBOO

    …classical music drives away the street gangs when played at the corner store….

    For the same reasons that bookstores remain unlooted during every chimp-out.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  371. @Anonymous

    But remember that anything that we “think” can only be a quasi “truth” or “relative” truth.

    You sound like a scientist (real one, not the one who claims to be a scientist).

  372. @Glock45

    For the same reasons that bookstores remain unlooted during every chimp-out.

    Here is much simpler explanation: chimps have no use for books, as they have trouble reading. So, they go for TVs and home appliances that even chimps can use.

  373. tamo says:
    @bookish1

    You are a lighter version of the black buttholes who claim blacks were the originators of Chinese first dynasty Shang. Hey doo she , go back to STORMFRONT.COM and share your Nobel Prize -winning FICTION with morons there, ,LOL !!!!

  374. @Mr. Hack

    Satchmo hated Parker’s Be-Bop style, called it Chinese music.

    AJM

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  375. tamo says:
    @Richard B

    Hey moron, get your stupid head out of your rear end, lol !!!

  376. Skeptikal says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    The topic of my comment was “ethnic identity,” not a competition between German classical music and jazz.
    Jeez.
    wrote somecomments of my own about jazz.
    So please, Mr. Mensa (yeah, we know about that, so why repeat it ad nauseum with every comment) take your hammer and look for a nail elsewhere.

  377. Skeptikal says:
    @tac

    Nice. And sexy.
    But I prefer Brendel’s playing.
    See also the Schiff master class of the last Impromptu video.

  378. my2cents says:
    @nokangaroos

    “Mohr von Wien” was a theater play!!!

  379. Dmitry says:
    @vinteuil

    It is not strange, as there is no barrier for anyone, to connection to musicians’ work – but that is one of unusual claims in the article, when author says East Asians don’t have the correct psychology (although the article claims they have the correct “IQ”) to play classical music with “emotional depth”.

    Music, especially, is the most universally accessible art across time and place, race and gender.

    Probably even aliens, will even appreciate our music. I would assume the higher quality the music (i.e. classical music), the more likely aliens would enjoy it – as musical quality seems to be positively correlated with universality.

    Aliens themselves, will still use the same mathematics, that we do, for example, so why would they not understand musical structures.

    But it’s some kind of comedy, that people are trying to use classical music in racial conflicts between white American rednecks, black American rednecks and Jewish American rednecks.

    (Also surely, the greatest American composers have been black? E.g. Duke Ellington?)

    Somehow, – if you want universal – we can enjoy the concerto of the German composer Beethoven (Beethoven – who could not count numbers past ten, so would score low on any contemporary IQ test that the author believes is necessary for classical music), played together by Russian German, Russian Pole, Russian Jew, and a narcissistic German Greek conductor of Berlin Philharmonic who formerly part of the Nazi party, and who hated the other three

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  380. @Anonymous

    There’s a difference between race and friends/family. We don’t live in tribal societies. We don’t make these decisions exclusively on phenotype.

    Not much. Race is an extended family.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  381. @AnonFromTN

    Sorry, my work does not leave me enough time to read a bunch of books on a topic I am not much interested in.

    Fair enough.

    I understand full well that some people psychologically need a father-figure, and any God can serve this purpose, including Christian bearded old man in a night gown.

    Sorry, but you don’t know the subject you’re talking about. It is perfectly correct & psychologically understandable to be completely indifferent to some areas of life or experience or knowledge (for instance, I don’t care about botany or football); yet, it is quite another thing to stick to schematic & shallow characterization of a huge area of life one basically nothing knows of, except the most absurd cartoons & infantile stereotypes.

    But, it seems that’s the way most humans operate.

  382. Mr. Hack says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    I rarely listen to Satchmo and think the most of the Byrd. His solos on the sax are pure sweetness, IMHO. 🙂

    Miles’ Quintet* output is pure gold!

    *I like both of the Quintets.

  383. @AnonFromTN

    My experience in the USSR taught me that any system of beliefs that claims to know the Truth with a capital T, whether it calls itself a religion, science, or ideology, is a pack of lies. Claiming that science knows all ultimate answers is just as false as claiming the same on behalf of any religion.

    You’re talking about religious fundamentalists & are certainly not acquainted with the philosophy of religion (which can be practiced by atheists, too).

    Also, there is no such thing as “real science”. Scientists, like all human beings, have their preferences. But- we’re wasting time here. You don’t care about the religious phenomenon & subscribe to something close to 18th/19th C old materialist view on religions.

    Good- but why bother to engage in exchange of opinions on the topic you’re clueless about? And why hold such a strong view on something you don’t know?

    Ahh, all too human…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  384. Anonymous[320] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Race is an extended family.

    I absolutely agree on that point. But why is it not possible to believe in extended families, race AND UNIVERSAL HUMANITY?

    Your point is well taken WHEN WE LIVED IN SMALL TRIBES. In that context, my tribesman definitely has priority over yours REGARDLESS.

    The world is composed of many hierarchal layers: The individual, family, extended family, community, ethnicity, nation-state, the world.

    The higher level should embrace the lower but without destroying it. (Ken Wilber speaks about this in respect to holons)

    The fact that I am part of a family doesn’t negate my individuality. I can be part of a family and a nation-state. I can embrace my race/ethnicity and the world as well as the community. They’re all parts/wholes, serving one another’s interests.

    The fact that I’m an individual doesn’t mean I only seek my SELF-INTEREST. The fact that I am part of a race shouldn’t mean I only seek the advantage of my race.

    Universal ethical values mean balancing all the INTERESTS so that each can thrive SEPARATELY and as a WHOLE.

    The mistake is when we embrace the higher at the expense of the lower. (Which ends in self destruction; organs can’t survive without cells.) Or we embrace the lower and reject the higher. (Evolutionary regression)

    The political left/right in the West today are trapped in that false dilemma. They can’t accept both ethnicity/race and universal values, the nation-state and an inter-connected world. It’s either/or. So the left (foolishly) tries to expunge race (while also at the same time asserting it, ironically). And the right (stereotypically) chooses race at the expense of universal humanity.

    As I said, the West seems to have a hard time embracing race and universal humanity at the same time.

    • Replies: @Poco
  385. @Bardon Kaldian

    Sorry to disappoint, I don’t fit your stereotype. I know quite a bit about religions (plural): Greek, Roman, Norse (did you know that Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday are named after Norse gods?), Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, as well as bits and pieces of religions of Navajo and some pueblo Indians. I even read parts of the Book of Mormon while staying in hotels in Utah. I am sure they only meant to imitate the Bible, but it reads like an angry parody of it. In fact, I found experimentally that I know more of Old and New Testament than a lot of people calling themselves Christians in the US. I read the whole Bible twice, in Russian (actually, in old Slavonic) and in English (King James version). I even enjoyed parts of it, although the talents of the writers varied widely. So, my opinion is based on knowledge, not ignorance. But it is based on knowledge of many different religions, not just the one that happens to be prevalent in a particular neck of woods. My conclusion: there are too many gods to take them seriously. But if someone does – that’s not my problem.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  386. @MEFOBILLS

    How Europe/Christendom became great:

    The rich would recycle their gains back to the public in the form of art and concerts. Artists were supported and concerts were a gift to the public.

    The Church, especially the Catholic church under influence of Dominican monks, taught that hard work was god like. Hard work, evolution, money – all vectored together at this point in time.

    Contrast that with our unpleasant present:

    Please note that any civilization cannot have a hostile elite, the elite has to be similar to the people, and come from the people.

    (The great replacement is due to a hostile oligarchy, that doesn’t give a damn because they are not from the people.)

    And the major reason for the difference/digression: there is no legitimate other, and she herself must restore her own legitimacy as her husband God Incarnate Jesus founded her:

    The Church, especially the Catholic church…

  387. Anonymous[312] • Disclaimer says:
    @Old Palo Altan

    Ever heard the one abouth the scorpion and the frog?

  388. vinteuil says:
    @Skeptikal

    Mendelssohn, like Beethoven, revered & learned a lot from Handel – as witness this wonderful chorus. He also played a leading role in the revival of interest in J.S. Bach in the early 19th century. Even Wagner, in his notorious article “Das Judenthum in der Musik,” had to recognize Mendelssohn’s remarkable natural gifts – though he concluded that, in the end, Mendelssohn lacked Beethoven’s depth – a fairly uncontroversial point, I guess.

  389. vinteuil says:
    @Old Palo Altan

    We just have – that awful song you told ID you liked – I’m shocked.

    Blush. I knew I shouldn’t admit to that! But, hey, I still like the tune, and I even find the lyrics interesting, for once, in a pop song:

    “Save me, save me…Leave a light on in heaven for me…If you want the fruit to fall/have to give the tree a shake/If you shake the tree too hard/bough is gonna’ break/If I can’t reach the top of the tree/Mary, you can hold me up there…”

    This is a sinner’s prayer for intercession to the Blessed Virgin, the Queen of Heaven, the Holy Mother of God, rather thinly disguised as a lament for lost love. I’m still curious what ID might think of it.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  390. vinteuil says:
    @Dmitry

    Greetings from Санкт-Петербу́рг, Dmitry!

    The Karajan/Richter/Oistrakh/Rostropovich recording of Beethoven’s triple concerto was, indeed, a bit of a train-wreck. So what’s your point?

    surely, the greatest American composers have been black? E.g. Duke Ellington?

    Do you think Duke Ellington was a greater composer than Sergei Prokofiev, or Dmitri Shostakovich? If you think that, then you might also think that he was greater composer than Samuel Barber or Aaron Copland.

    I, myself, do not think that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  391. Big John says:

    I regard myself as an impartial observer now as I won’t be around that much longer and I wonder if white people will realise in time who their enemies are. Jews are openly controlling speech in order to be able to destroy them using Muslims and other races to invade. All the while white people are so stupid that not only do they let it happen but encourage it. Perhaps they will retreat to Russia to regroup and return to force the invaders out in similar fashion to the crusades. Or perhaps they have become too decadent and privileged to realise in time and will go extinct. Alternatively perhaps fossil fuels will run out or be banned by fools and the whole world civilization crash. Another possibilty is that the global warmists will succeed and reduce CO2 levels to below 200ppm where plant death starts to occur on a massive scale. I think I’d prefer the second scenario as it provides the end human beings richly deserve. Whatever scenario occurs I can’t see things being peaceful for much longer.

  392. Skeptikal says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Cf. Norman Mailer, “White Negro.”

  393. Skeptikal says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Baldian is a conceited, patronizing pedant who I guess is a professor of something, or thinks he should be, and views UR commenters as the intellectually unwashed just awaiting enlightenment by Bald.
    What a pseud, is all I can say.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  394. @Skeptikal

    I guess you are right. By his tone, he is in theology, political science, or something else equally useless. His haughtiness suggests that he is way lower than a professor, a lecturer or an adjunct at best.

  395. @AnonFromTN

    You just said I was right: you don’t understand the religious phenomenon, its psychology & metaphysics (to call it that), and philosophy of religion is something alien to you. You are, from what you wrote well acquainted with, say, socio-cultural manifestations of religion(s) & their sacred texts- but that’s all-and not what I was talking about.

    Well, if you have a spare time for 1000+ pages, I’d recommend, then

    Although there are not few weaknesses there (too narrow a definition of atheism which stems from basically Christian point of view; absurd contentions that, say, Hitler’s life, for him, had not a “cosmic meaning”, just a “terrestrial one”- which is nonsense, because Hitler believed in his mission as the man of transcendent Destiny; the absence of “cruel gods” like many in antiquity & pre-Columbian Americas & in the more modern garb in Jung’s Septem Sermones; too nitpicking re definitions; too blind to see that many formal theists like, say, Aristotle, were more like atheists, because for them word “god” was just a necessary step in construction of their world-view & nothing truly alive or “real”; ..) this is still one of the best & most comprehensive books on atheist world-views.

    Anyway, we strayed from the topic of music & “race”, so this is my last take on that sideshow.

  396. Perhaps.

    I prefer this, a setting of the Salve Regina unique to the Abbey of Einsiedeln in deepest Schwyz:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF0r70MA680&frags=pl%2Cwn

  397. annamaria says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Perhaps you need to ponder the context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhdanov_Doctrine

    A decree on music was issued on 20 February 1948, “On Muradeli’s Opera The Great Friendship” and marked the beginning of the so-called “anti-formalism campaign”. (The term “formalism” referred to art for art’s sake which did not serve a larger social purpose.) … it signaled a sustained campaign of criticism and persecution against many of the Soviet Union’s foremost composers, notably Dmitri Shostakovich, Sergei Prokofiev, Aram Khachaturian and Dmitri Klebanov for allegedly writing “hermetic” music and misusing dissonance. The decree was followed in April by a special congress of the Composers’ Union, where many of those attacked were forced publicly to repent.

    As David Oïstrakh was recorded saying (in a documentary by Bruno Monsaingeon), he ceased to be a man after he became the only male in his building, who was not arrested by the Soviet secret police.

  398. annamaria says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Thank you for the link. And thank you for mentioning Ebarme dich:

    German:

    Erbarme dich, mein Gott,
    um meiner Zähren willen!
    Schaue hier, Herz und Auge
    weint vor dir bitterlich.
    Erbarme dich, mein Gott.

    English:

    Have mercy, my God,
    for the sake of my tears!
    See here, before you
    heart and eyes weep bitterly.
    Have mercy, my God.

    • Replies: @Iris
  399. annamaria says:
    @vinteuil

    “Stupid snobbery was the number one driving force behind the destruction of the arts in the twentieth century.”
    — Perhaps it was rather an amalgam of laziness and self-indulgence. Psychological studies gone awry thanks to the “progressive” moneyed patrons.

  400. anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @nickels

    Persian percussion —

    inspiration for Yo Yo Ma’s Silk Road Ensemble

  401. anon[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thales the Milesian

    do Chinese have disease due to inbreeding similar to those of jews?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  402. Iris says:
    @annamaria

    Mozart’s Laudate Dominum by the wonderful Slovakian soprano Lucia Popp:

    Praise him, all people
    Because it is confirmed
    His mercy is upon us
    Truth is, truth remains
    Remains forever

    • Replies: @annamaria
  403. @anon

    Geneticists say that China behaves like a large population, so there is no inbreeding. In fact, you can see it by the looks of younger Chinese: they are toll and handsome. In sharp contrast to India, which geneticists say behaves like numerous small populations (each tribe separate, and each of the five castes in each tribe separate).

  404. vinteuil says:
    @annamaria

    Thank you for the delicious abbreviation, DSCH.

    That was new to you?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  405. nick says:

    I just finished reading : Zen and Western Thought by Masao Abe.
    This book clearly documents the inferior of “White” western philosophy compared to Asian thoughts. Kant, Nietzche, Plato, Socrates, etc were clearly very shallow compared what Asian thinkers had come up with hundreds of years before.
    I invite all of you proud “Whites” to read this book and reply to me. Thanks.

    • Replies: @Bookish1
    , @Poco
  406. annamaria says:
    @vinteuil

    ‘That was new to you?” — No. But it was nice to see the DSCH in a non-musicological publication.

  407. annamaria says:
    @Iris

    Thank you.
    More Mozart:

    • Agree: Iris
  408. Bookish1 says:
    @nick

    Who were those Asian thinkers that you are gloating over? There wre many whites in Asia at the time of those supposed superior philosophers wrote their stuff. My guess is those great philosophers were white. Otherwise why did all those great thinkers suddenly stop their great thinking and not have given us anything since.

    • LOL: tamo
  409. turtle says:

    More Handel:

    • Replies: @annamaria
  410. annamaria says:
    @turtle

    The 19th century interpretation of Handel’s theme, by Brahms.
    Händel Variations, Op. 24.

    • Replies: @turtle
  411. turtle says:
    @annamaria

    Thanks for that.
    Lovely music. 🙂
    Hadn’t heard it before.
    Completely different genre:

  412. Poco says:
    @Anonymous

    Universal humanity does not exist.

  413. Poco says:
    @nick

    Piss on non-western philosophy.

    • Replies: @Poco
  414. Poco says:
    @Poco

    Marcus Aurelius is the final word on philosophy.

    • Replies: @Poco
  415. Poco says:
    @Poco

    Anything else is poison from the east. Eastern blathering and contrary unnecessary jibber jabber. Whether one wants to live by it is of no moment. It is correct.

  416. I’m a middle eastern none white race individual,and I’m lucky to be one of those who enjoys classical music tremendously,to me,classical music is the ultimate supreme achievement of human creativity,above all other artistic forms of expression,and more important than all other scientific or cultural achievements of mankind.
    Beethoven(and specially Beethoven),Bach,Mozart,Brahms,Wagner,Schubert,Sibelius and so many more of those,are icons and jewels of the supreme art that we call “Classical Music”.
    My response to Brenton Sanderson confused and confusing article is: why he tries to include those icons of classical music and their unique achievements into the category that depends on skin color,and use their legacy of beauty and spiritual inspired works to lift and claim credit and superior intelligence to the entire white race,which is full of horrendously criminal history since time immemorial? Did the white Beethoven have any thing in common with Winston Churchill or Tony Blair?Do you think,Mr. Sanderson, that Bach Mozart or Schubert will agree that they’ll be put in the same class with Hitler,Goering and Wernher von Braun ? What if the German rockets scientist happen to have more IQ level than Bach?,does that means that he’s more worthy and valuable than Bach?Where does this sort of analysis begins or ends? It’s acknowledged that Beethoven music is the most influential,most globally recognized and admired in the classical repertoire,then there are Mozart,Brahms and Schubert,Wagner,and others German composers,so,can we argue that the German classical composers are superior,and at higher genius IQ level than the rest of European composers,such as Verdi,Vivaldi,Saint Saens
    ,Sibelius,Tchaikovsky,therefore the Germans are more intelligent & superior to the rest of Europeans?! Where that kind of arguments have to stop?
    And what happens if we include the criminal & genocidal dark colonial legacy of the super intelligent European white race into this comparative contributions study”,will it inflict some sort of damage to the names of those great composers?!
    The author of the article did not mention the huge difference between the spiritually enlightened Renaissance Europe,and the declining & degenerating material-worshiping Europe of the present times.The European of the present are not entitled to inherit that wealth of musical,cultural and artistic achievement,that treasures belongs to humankind’s list of creative achievements,the author should not try to steal from the golden past, to give it to the worthless & soulless ruins of what was once existed,the white Christian European race.

    • Replies: @Bookish1
  417. Bookish1 says:
    @Wael Ahmad

    All those producers of great art works had to have an organic cultural society to be a part of in order to produce what they did. Their organic base was the German society of German people. So it is racial afterall and they belong to the white race.

    • LOL: tamo
    • Replies: @Wael Ahmad
  418. John G. says:

    This author makes a fundamental error when he attempts to conflate White European culture with the accomplishments of classical music. Why? Because the accomplishments of classical music are the accomplishments of individual composers and musicians, and nobody else. “The Egyptians” didn’t build the Great Pyramid. An Egyptian architect/engineer did so, with skilled laborers. Individual people. Not a single White person alive today can claim any credit or legitimate personal pride in the accomplishments of Bach, Beethoven or Mozart. Only Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart can. They are individual human beings, not “white culture.” In fact, most White people, like most other people, are a bunch of idiotic yahoos; always have been, always will be, because the level of intellectual prowess necessary to live a normal life is extremely low. The creative work of folks like Bach were exemplary, which is why we still remember it. The vast millions of European people who achieved precisely nothing beyond stuffing their yaps, drinking, and living long enough to procreate a few times are forgettable and worthless to us now. Any White person who feels actual pride in the work of Bach – music which is beyond stunning, to those with the ears for it – is a White person with an extreme inferiority complex, because their whiteness has literally nothing to do with Bach, and they have no connection to his brilliance. A White person taking pride in others accomplishments is like a fool who think that their superstitious practice of sitting in a certain seat at a bar helped their favorite sports team win. Moronic.

    • Replies: @Charles_Martel
  419. John G. says:
    @nickels

    Surely you must be joking. Porcupine Tree is what happens when you combine boredom with chords. Is the drummer really good? Yes. Does he have the fluidity of the most masterful jazz drummers? Not even close, at least not in this example. It also sounds like he is typically of White prog musicians, and sooooo unswingingly stilted. Billy Cobham, Max Roach, those are DRUMMERS. My god, listen to the late 1980s work of Trilok Gurtu with John McLaughlin, THAT is truly amazing drumming.

  420. Because the accomplishments of classical music are the accomplishments of individual composers and musicians, and nobody else.

    That is saying if Bach lived in central Africa he still would have created the music that he did. Baloney! All artistic works have a cultural base of a cultural community meaning the creator of the art has an organic connection to the society that he is a part of and his creation comes out of his personal organic connection with his racial brethren.

  421. Dmitry says:
    @vinteuil

    Sorry I forgot about this discussion

    Karajan/Richter/Oistrakh/Rostropovich recording of Beethoven’s triple concerto was, indeed, a bit of a train-wreck. So what’s your point?

    They all hated each other, some of them have the most extreme national differences that could exist in the 20th century (Nazi Party member, Russian Pole, Russian Jew)… yet, it’s a great recording (the music is not at all a train-wreck, even if the recording atmosphere was).

    I’m not sure it needs to said how easily music can overcome any divisions of national or personal background of people experiencing or playing it.

    Do you think Duke Ellington was a greater composer than Sergei Prokofiev, or Dmitri Shostakovich? If you think that, then you might also think that he was greater composer than Samuel Barber or Aaron Copland.

    I, myself, do not think that.

    It’s not easy to compare, and I’m not the person to answer, as I don’t know those composers (Barber, Copland) and also I don’t know how original Ellington is in his genre (Jazz music).

    (This is could be just my personal ignorance – I just read now that “Caravan” was not actually composed by Ellington, and also that Billy Strayhorn has composed Ellington music like “Take a train”).

    But if you have a list of at least “top American composers”, and then I think of Ellington and Gershwin. Or musicians like Miles Davis.

    Otherwise, I would nominate film composers like John Williams.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  422. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    I don’t know those composers (Barber, Copland)

    Ok checking now, I have heard their compositions before (Fanfare for Common Man; The Adagio for Strings) without knowing it was by these composers.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  423. 95Theses says:
    @turtle

    Hear, hear!

    I love Mendelssohn! and I Could. Not. Care. Less about his ethnic origins. What a pity that that anyone would allow that sort of bigotry to interfere with enjoying the melodies of Mendelssohn’s compositions.

    I wonder how many people would be surprised to know (in an ironic sort of way) that the music present in most Western weddings is provided to us by an ethnic Jew composer and a German composer known also for his anti-Semitism?

    Where we have the entrance music traditionally featuring Wagner’s Bridal Chorus (Lohengrin) and the ceremonial finale being Mendelssohn’s Wedding March (Midsummer Night’s Dream) .

    For the haters, I guess you could say that the scherzo’s on them. ツ

    • Replies: @turtle
    , @turtle
    , @turtle
  424. It is important to be aware of the knife in the back from RepubliCONS and CONservatives. Recently, the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra cancelled its summer programs and the musicians are now suffering financial hardships. The RepubliCON Governor Larry Hogan refused to release funds that the Legislature had appropriated for the Orchestra. CONservative commenters on Facebook were deriding the musicians as “an entitled class” and saying “Get a real job!” One even disrespectfully branded a conductor as a “nerd.”

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  425. Cricket says:
    @Rational

    I don’t know about the best looking. The most colorfool, yes. But I’d take a beautifool gentile over an ughlee white.

  426. turtle says:
    @95Theses

    Here is what the great Wilhelm Furtwängler
    had to say about Mendelssohn:

    Ultimately there is only one dividing line I recognize: that between good and bad art. However, while the dividing line between Jews and non-Jews is being drawn with a downright merciless theoretical precision, that other dividing line, the one which in the long run is so important for our music life, yes, the decisive dividing line between good and bad, seems to have far too little significance attributed to it […] If concerts offer nothing then people will not attend; that is why the QUALITY is not just an idea: it is of vital importance. If the fight against Judaism concentrates on those artists who are themselves rootless and destructive and who seek to succeed in kitsch, sterile virtuosity and the like, then it is quite acceptable; the fight against these people and the attitude they embody (as, unfortunately, do many non-Jews) cannot be pursued thoroughly or systematically enough. If, however, this campaign is also directed at truly great artists, then it ceases to be in the interests of Germany’s cultural life […] It must therefore be stated that men such as Walter, Klemperer, Reinhardt etc. must be allowed to exercise their talents in Germany in the future as well, in exactly the same way as Kreisler, Huberman, Schnabel and other great instrumentalists of the Jewish race. It is only just that we Germans should bear in mind that in the past we had Joseph Joachim one of the greatest violinists and teachers in the German classical tradition, and in Mendelssohn even a great German composer – for Mendelssohn is a part of Germany’s musical history”

    Note that Furtwängler caught it from both sides.
    On the one hand, Himmler wanted him thrown in a concentration camp (which, fortunately, did not happen).
    On the other hand, various Jewish musicians (Horowitz, et. al.) criticized him for “not leaving Germany,” which to me is ridiculous, particularly as Furtwängler was German, not Jewish, and he courageously went to bat for Jewish musicians, solely on the basis of artistic merit.

    I must, however, protest your use of the term “anti-Semitic” to mean “anti-Jewish.”
    If you mean “anti-Jewish,” please say so.
    As I have noted previously, all Semites are not Jews, nor are all Jews Semites.
    There is an intersection of those two sets, but they are not identical.

    Most non-Jewish Semites are known as Arabs, and as far as I know, there are more Arabs than there are Jews. Also, as far as I know, Arabs regard themselves as human beings.
    So, those who equate “Jewish” with “Semitic” necessarily fall into two categories:
    a) the purely ignorant and unreflective, who have not thought the matter through, or
    b) Jewish supremacists who do not consider Arabs (or anyone else) to be human beings.
    (I consider category b to be particularly vile. JMO)

    Which one are you?

  427. turtle says:
    @95Theses

    I never married (close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, or so they say), but had I done so, I would have wanted the ceremony to begin with this tune:

    I do, however, have a magnificent recording of the piece by this group:

    from long ago.
    Bringing it all Bach home…

  428. turtle says:
    @95Theses

    And since we are speaking of Bach:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Hahn

    On playing Bach
    In 1999 Hahn said that she played Bach more than any other composer and that she had played solo Bach pieces every day since she was eight.[3]

    Bach is, for me, the touchstone that keeps my playing honest. Keeping the intonation pure in double stops, bringing out the various voices where the phrasing requires it, crossing the strings so that there are not inadvertent accents, presenting the structure in such a way that it’s clear to the listener without being pedantic – one can’t fake things in Bach, and if one gets all of them to work, the music sings in the most wonderful way.

    But she also does Mozart:

    Too bad for His Holiness.
    The rest of us will have a great time. 🙂

  429. vinteuil says:
    @Dmitry

    Check out Copland’s Appalachian Spring, Billy the Kid, & Red Pony Suite. For Barber, try Knoxville, Summer of 1915, the Violin Concerto & the Piano Sonata he wrote for Horowitz.

  430. @Bookish1

    I don’t agree entirely with you.The German,Italians,French,Russians & others were great composers,and the entire humanity owes them so much gratitude,but they influenced and get influenced by each other,and their magnificent works were after all(apart from being commisioned by their aristocratic mentors) were dedicated to the human race as a whole,not to the their local or European fellow countrymen only,and I think if what you claim is true,I’m sure that they’ll be turning in agony in their graves now,because,in nowadays Europe,the gay discos are compacted with the youth,while the concert halls are starving for an audience of over 65 & +years old coughing men & women. Check if you’re still the same descendants of those great composers before you claim their legacy to you only.

  431. @LietenantChilsden

    ” Get a real job”

    Damn right,and myself, a pro jazz performer with fifty-plus years under my belt, I most adamently disapprove of tax funding for any classical or jazz or whatever performers.

    Just why the hell should a trucker, pounding the freeways for a living, just why the hell should he, someone who probably never witnessed a classical concert in his entire mundane existance, just why the hell should he bleed his hard-earned tax dollars in order to support these uppity classical performers, basta.

    An old buddy of mine, a (black) trapsman who had been on occasion on the bandstand, with such legendary figures as John Coltrane, and Chet Baker, he maintained that Jazz is a “paid hobby” nothing else, and I don’t believe in supporting people’s hobbies with tax-slave-dollars, and this inclues such non-sensical areas as “space exploration” and non-applicable physics. These parasites should finance their passions out of their own pockets, period.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet, and pro jazz artist.

    PS, and before anyone dares to define myself as an adversary of classical music: Nope, as I did in fact undertake classical flute studies in conservatory, over a period of four years, having gone through the Bach/Mozart/Teleman flute book.

    • Replies: @Charles_Martel
  432. Read the book and you will see, oh thou superior one.

    LMAO

  433. @John G.

    “[T]o those with the ears for it” pretty much says it all. There was a time when Mozart and Verdi were popular music for everybody in, respectively, Vienna and Milan–white people with ears. There was a time when classical music was taught by white people with ears for little white people with developing ears in the public schools–I happen to know this, because back in the 50’s, I was one of the students. That was back before the mongrels took over the public schools, ultimately bringing rap “music” (a contradiction in terms) to the classroom.

    If Negroes and mongrels can be proud of their rap “music”, then what’s wrong with me being proud of classical music, which is clearly superior to any other music ever written? So superior, indeed, that it has been adopted by cultivated and cultured Asians, who otherwise disdain the mongrelization of the world? Sure, I couldn’t ever write something as sublime as Bach could, but an artist needs an audience, and writes to his audience. Unlike a hiphop idiot, Bach wasn’t writing for a 21st century mongrel crowd.

    By the way, the Egyptians did build the Pyramids, just as Germans built the autobahn and the US built the space shuttle.

  434. @Authenticjazzman

    I can’t disagree with your comments about public support for private hobbies, but if just 2% of public money squandered on football and basketball were spent on opera and symphonic music (and yes, jazz, which, however, has earned and deserves its vanishingly small audience), then we would have a vibrant arts scene, indeed.

  435. It’s hard not to laugh at how, with each new aspect of civilizational achievement within which to detect and deplore White Supremacy, the Jews succeed in highlighting just how supreme Whites are in achieving civilization.
    So I do.

    Oh, and by the way, It’s all men.

    • LOL: tamo
  436. Truth3 says:
    @Bruno

    Tchaikovsky was not Jewish.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  437. Truth3 says:

    Jimmy Page. John Paul Jones. John Bonham. Robert Plant.

    Now those gentlemen… could make music.

  438. Rollmop says:

    Having the best music simply means we have the best music. It doesn’t follow that we white people are all-round superior at everything else as well. Anyone who makes such a claim provides a counter-example demonstrating that whites aren’t especially good at logic, at the very least.

  439. Bookish1 says:

    Ok, ok but how about putting a man on the moon? Isn’t that proof of some special talent. Why not just take a look at a list of inventions that comprise the modern world and see who the inventors were. If it wasn’t for whites the whole world would still be living in caves. Us whites certainly are something special.

  440. Markster says:

    I like Vivaldi especially the Four Seasons. I can listen to it a thousand times and still discover some nuance, some instrument, a new rift. I note that these fellows composed for the elite of the day and their reputation and livelihood depended on their genius. Its a cruel paradox of life that many of them had difficult times financially.

    It is also a paradox that rappers these days make a disc extolling violence, drug sales, running hoes, all laced with profanity and sexual filth and make millions. Some songs that have skyrocketed to the top have at times three chords and the singer repeats the same lyrics over and over for three plus minutes to the same monotonous beat. We then hear in interviews that they are like exploring new territory, keeping it real, like taking music in fresh new directions. Such rubbish and drivel !

    I also note these fellows compose for the ignorant rabble and are soon forgotten along with their trash music.

    Classical music needs no recommendation. It has survived for hundreds of years and will be around when the vulgarity and music of the homies, and the dreary melodies of all the other empty headed musicians have long been forgotten.

    • Replies: @John Irwin Reston
  441. @Truth3

    No, he wasn’t. He belonged to another interesting minority which was, in Proust’s mind, somehow similar.

    [MORE]

    For the two angels who were posted at the gates of Sodom to learn whether its inhabitants (according to Genesis) had indeed done all the things the report of which had ascended to the Eternal Throne must have been, and of this one can only be glad, exceedingly ill chosen by the Lord, Who ought not to have entrusted the task to any but a Sodomite. Such an one the excuses: “Father of six children-I keep two mistresses,” and so forth could never have persuaded benevolently to lower his flaming sword and to mitigate the punishment; he would have answered: “Yes, and your wife lives in a torment of jealousy. But even when these women have not been chosen by you from Gomorrah, you spend your nights with a watcher of flocks upon Hebron.” And he would at once have made him retrace his steps to the city which the rain of fire and brimstone was to destroy. On the contrary, they allowed to escape all the shame-faced Sodomites, even if these, on catching sight of a boy, turned their heads, like Lot’s wife, though without being on that account changed like her into pillars of salt. With the result that they engendered a numerous posterity with whom this gesture has continued to be habitual, like that of the dissolute women who, while apparently studying a row of shoes displayed in a shop window, turn their heads to keep track of a passing student.
    These descendants of the Sodomites, so numerous that we may apply to them that other verse of Genesis: “If a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered,” have established themselves throughout the entire world; they have had access to every profession and pass so easily into the most exclusive clubs that, whenever a Sodomite fails to secure election, the blackballs are, for the most part, cast by other Sodomites, who are anxious to penalise sodomy, having inherited the falsehood that enabled their ancestors to escape from the accursed city. It is possible that they may return there one day. Certainly they form in every land an Oriental colony, cultured, musical, malicious, which has certain charming qualities and intolerable defects. We shall study them with greater thoroughness in the course of the following pages; but I have thought it as well to utter here a provisional warning against the lamentable error of proposing (just as people have encouraged a Zionist movement) to create a Sodomist movement and to rebuild Sodom. For, themselves throughout the entire world; they have had access to every profession and pass so easily into the most exclusive clubs that, whenever a Sodomite fails to secure election, the blackballs are, for the most part, cast by other Sodomites, who are anxious to penalise sodomy, having inherited the falsehood that enabled their ancestors to escape from the accursed city. It is possible that they may return there one day.

    Certainly they form in every land an Oriental colony, cultured, musical, malicious, which has certain charming qualities and intolerable defects. We shall study them with greater thoroughness in the course of the following pages; but I have thought it as well to utter here a provisional warning against the lamentable error of proposing (just as people have encouraged a Zionist movement) to create a Sodomist movement and to rebuild Sodom. For, no sooner had they arrived there than the Sodomites would leave the town so as not to have the appearance of belonging to it, would take wives, keep mistresses in other cities where they would find, incidentally, every diversion that appealed to them. They would repair to Sodom only on days of supreme necessity, when their own town was empty, at those seasons when hunger drives the wolf from the woods; in other words, everything would go on very much as it does to-day in London, Berlin, Rome, Petrograd or Paris.

  442. @Anon

    Hate to bust your bubble but Hendrix was not the greatest rock guitarist. I grew up in his era and I listened to him and practically everything he ever played was wild, loud and limited to whatever was between his ears at the moment. Hendrix was popular in the Hippie era because he was a black guy playing to essentially a white audience, he did a lot of drugs (just like those who listened to him), because everything he played and his technique was unconventional for the time and because he died young and not for any great musical accomplishments.

    Had he lived time might have changed him but we will never know.

  443. @Markster

    Well put. Rappers, the crap they rap about (and let’s don’t call that slop singing) and the crowd they rap to are usually mental midget dead beats. It doesn’t even qualify as music…just made up rhymes by weird people for weirder peeps who thrive on filth, violence, degradation of women and hatred of anything that is not black.

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