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The trade war will not result in bringing more business back to American soil: Just 6% of our member companies say this current US-China trade dispute would make them consider relocating operations back home.

William Zarit, Chairman of The American Chamber of Commerce in China.

This is America’s third trade war on China: we held its head under water from 1949-1971 and from 1989-92. Inter alia, the US, the EU and the USSR embargoed all weapons technology to prevent China from independently developing the H-Bomb or launching satellites. She did both and kept her economy growing debt-free, twice as fast as ours. This time, embargoes will have even less effect, for several reasons:

I. LABOR

President Trump observed, “China’s leaders are much smarter than our leaders and we can’t sustain ourselves like that. It’s like, taking the New England Patriots and Tom Brady and having them play your high school football team”. Even Henry Kissinger agreed, “The Chinese are smarter than us so my approach was to tell the truth upfront because they’d figure it out anyway”. Trouble is, they’re smarter all the way down.

PISA tests show their high schoolers graduating three years ahead of ours in STEM subjects and add to that their five point IQ advantage and you get a labor force comfortable in the 21st century. A friend, a director-level employee with an engineering background who has worked with multiple multinational companies in various capacities, but has been primarily based in the US sees it this way (his emphasis):

Most people don’t realize that the Toyota factory churning out cars has only half of its staff on the manufacturing floor. The other half is engineers and supply chain guys, supervisors etc…. the engineers at these facilities are responsible for fixing daily technical issues and working with R & D. The vast majority of modern manufacturing is done by machines.

American manufacturing moved to China not because of dumb labor, but because you could hire high IQ people for dirt cheap. If your machine broke down, no problem; some Chinese guy (with basically a masters in EE) would pull out the circuit boards and using probes and other instrumentation determine what board needed replacing and he would work annually for a fraction of the salary of his equivalent in the US.

Manufacturing in the US is a nightmare: at our facility our only requirement for a assembler was a high school degree, US citizenship, passing a drug and criminal background check and then passing a simple assembly test: looking at an assembly engineering drawing and then putting the components together.

The vast majority of Americans were unable to complete the assembly test, while for our facility in China they completed it in half the time and 100% of the applicants passed. An assembler position in the US would average maybe 30 interviews a day and get 29 rejections, not to mention all the HR hassles of assemblers walking off shift, excessive lateness, stealing from work, slow work speed and poor attitudes.

The product line is highly specialized equipment, so it makes no sense to fully automate it, most of the components are assembled by hand and for certain steps we use custom engineered jigs. And for those saying that the position wasn’t paying enough, it paid $12 an hour starting in an area with an extremely low cost of living where property taxes for a 2000 square foot house would be $800-$1000 a year. Assemblers don’t make $150K. An assembler takes parts and puts them together. The position starts at $12 an hour in flyover country which is pretty reasonable compared to other jobs that only require a GED and no prior work experience. Offers medical, dental and annual raises with plenty of opportunity to move up in the company. The national average salary for a Production Assembler is $33,029 in United States, which is what you would be making if you stayed for 5+ years.

Finding a black or Hispanic capable of passing these simple requirements and passing the assembly test is merely impossible nevermind being competent, punctual and of good moral character (not stealing from company or starting conflicts with coworkers). And these are the main groups that apply for this position. The same exact product line has the same facility in China, and the same positions in China pays the same wages as other positions there with only a high school degree and no work experience. Yet the applicant quality is much higher, and this applies as well to the white collar professions that support the manufacturing: schedulers, quality inspectors, equipment testers and calibrators, engineers, supply chain managers, account managers, sales etc….their labor quality is simply higher. I suspect the blacks and Hispanics are probably too dumb to get affirmative action too dumb to go to college, so they probably average 75 IQ and their Chinese equivalents are probably 95 but the performance gap is massive.

The equivalent position, with the same requirements is present in all countries, with corresponding wages. There is no shortage of applicants in most countries, but in the US the younger candidates routinely fail the exam while in China they routinely pass. The US has a higher proportion of unfit workers than China. Statistically, people that don’t have college degrees apply to this job (and statistically blacks and Hispanics are less likely to have college degrees so the bulk of applicants are black and Hispanic). Likewise in China, the people who typically apply for these positions are high school grads who failed to score enough on the Gao Kao (China’s version of the SAT) and thus unable to gain acceptance into a university.

There’s a reason why all the tech CEO’s and high level management employees are convinced they can’t replace China and its not because they want to make more profits. At the end of the day, high-end and middling manufacturing is not moving to either the US or Mexico because the average person in flyover country and Mexico are dumb as rocks. And anyone praising Mexico is not upper management and there is a very good reason why Mexico’s economy stagnated until NAFTA which basically was nothing more than a scam to rebrand things manufactured in other countries ‘Made in Mexico’ and export them to the US to avoid tariffs. If Mexico was a competent country with quality workers the laws of economics would magically reroute supply chains without trade wars, tariffs or free trade agreements and likewise the same applies for every 3rd world sh1thole like India or Somalia.

Companies choose eastern Europe and China for high IQ, work ethic, competence combined with lower wages.

2. DEBT

As part of our media’s ‘extend and pretend’ approach, things are bad in China and debt is high on the list of looming catastrophes which a truly just God should have inflicted on the heathen country by now. But the facts say otherwise–and China’s debt is mostly between government departments in an economy growing three times faster than ours.

3. CURRENT ACCOUNT SURPLUS

Both countries’ current account are negative, America’s more so.

4. TRADE DEPENDENCY

Trade comprises 13% of our GDP, 18% of China’s and 43% of the EU’s. China’s balance of trade (imports vs exports) has remained between -2% and -3% since 2007 and is currently in almost perfect balance and trade with the US contributes 2.5% to her GDP. America’s balance of trade has remained between -1.5% and -0.5% since 2007 and trade with China contributes 1% to America’s GDP, suggesting that our deficit reflects our low rate of domestic saving and a high rate of federal borrowing. Ceteris paribus, if China-US trade falls by (an extreme) 20%, China’s GDP will drop by 0.5% and ours by 0.2%.

5. OPERATING ASSUMPTIONS

When we we deputized the Chinese to do our dirty manufacturing and recycle our trash decades ago our media hailed the move as inspired and, for a while, we felt like winners. Now that era is ending, we’re in denial and President Trump’s China man, Peter Navarro, reflects our media’s unwillingness to confront reality in his academic paper, The Economics of the ‘China Price’. He asks, “How has China been able to emerge as the world’s factory floor?” and answers, “ The answer lies in the eight major ‘economic drivers’ of the China price:

  1. Low wages,
  2. Counterfeiting and piracy,
  3. Minimal worker health and safety regulations,
  4. Lax environmental regulations and enforcement,
  5. Export industry subsidies,
  6. A highly efficient “industrial network clustering”,
  7. The catalytic role of foreign direct investment (FDI),
  8. An undervalued currency”.

Since his analysis informs the President’s policy, let’s look a little closer:

Low wages? Adjusted for productivity, benefits, etc., Chinese workers cost their employers as much as their American cousins and their wages are doubling every decade and 450,000,000 urban Chinese will have higher net worth and more disposable income than the average American by 2021.

Counterfeiting and piracy? Our media has long promoted this canard whereas in fact China is ahead of us in most areas. It is the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fieldscomputer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering (more than 70% of academic patent families published in quantum information technology since 2012 have been from Chinese universities. US universities are second with 12%). China also leads the world in research, development and deployment in all fields of clean energy and most fields of civil engineering, manufacturing, supercomputing, speech recognition, graphenics, thorium power, pebble bed reactors, genomics, thermal power generation, quantum communication networks, ASW missiles, in-orbit satellite refueling, passive array radar, metamaterials, hyperspectral imaging, nanotechnology, UHV electricity transmission, railway engineering, electric vehicles, radiotelescopy, hypersonic weapons, satellite quantum communications and quantum secure direct communications. Court records in the WTO’s TRIPS database, in San Jose, Shanghai and Beijing (where Apple is currently suing Qualcomm) record no theft of significant technologies. Buyouts, IP transfers, indigenous development and and $30 billion in annual licensing payments account for 99.9% of China’s IP.

Minimal worker health and safety regulations? Chinese labor unions, whose 130 million members outnumber the rest of the world’s combined, have thus far persuaded the government to ratify four of eight UN Labor Conventions (the US has ratified two), two of four Governance Conventions (the US, one) and twenty-two of 177 Technical Conventions (the US, eleven). The Labor Contract Law permits employers to unilaterally terminate employees, with severance, only if they remain incompetent after training or reassignment and, since labor courts interpret them strictly, employers who defy labor laws invariably suffer adversely. Even the Voice of America admitted, “In 1995 China enacted a labor law granting all workers the right to a wage, rest periods, no excessive overtime and the right to carry out group negotiations. Beijing, hoping to push local authorities to address the situation, issued a notice to local governments to make improving labor relations an ‘urgent task’ and work to ensure employees are paid on time and in full, launch programs to provide better labor protections for rural migrant workers and call on employers to improve workplace safety. Although many labor protesters have been detained, few have been criminally prosecuted”. Conditions in Chinese factories are generally better than those in equivalent factories Stateside.

Lax environmental regulations and enforcement? China’s environmentalregulations are as strong as America’s and enforcement will overtake ours within two years. If that sounds far fetched, compare the draconian powers of their new Environment Ministry and the number environmental offenders they have prosecuted and jailed.

Export industry subsidies? The public record shows China has honored far more of its WTO agreements than America.

A highly efficient “industrial network clustering”? Adding clustering to high quality employees makes manufacturing in China very sticky.

The catalytic role of foreign direct investment? A.T. Kearney says the US and China attract the same level of FDI.

An undervalued currency?Our trade deficits are caused not by an undervalued yuan but by a seriously overvalued dollar, caused primarily by excessive foreign demand for dollars and dollar-based assets.

China’s currency has been fairly valued for years against a weighted basket of its trading partners’ currencies and has stayed comfortably within its trading band. The value of the dollar fluctuates far more than the value of the basket.

If China were guilty of currency manipulation as defined by the IMF, it would run significant current account surpluses and it doesn’t. China runs large trade deficits with other countries to balance its exceptionally heavy dependence on trade surpluses with America. The overall trade balance demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that America’s trade deficits with China are not the result of an undervalued yuan but of an overvalued dollar. Recent work indicates that the dollar is currently overvalued by 20-25% with respect to the rate that would give America truly balanced external trade.

What about logic? Americans and Chinese are willing partners each of whom considers theirs the best deal in the world. Who will pay the additional 10% tariff? US consumers could lose, quite substantially, and Chinese firms would lose, too, as higher prices depress demand even if the tariff is mostly paid by American consumers. So fewer Chinese companies might survive and massive job losses would cause a severe economic downturn and the trade war could cause many companies to go bankrupt, thus removing redundant capacity from the market, leaving healthy companies earning healthy returns–and one of the key Chinese government objectives just before the outbreak of trade war was to shed low-margin, low-tech, inefficient manufacturers.

How About Killing “Made in China 2025? The US has not been generous in technology transfer in the past. In fact, China is still forbidden to acquire a host of technologies the US considers strategic and still blocked from participating in projects like the ISS. The US provided a storm warning by banning sales of Intel Xeon chips to China in 2015 because they were used to power supercomputers (China released a computer powered by indigenous chips in 2016 and regained the lead). And since the ban on ZTE (a world leader in 5G intellectual property) many chip startups whose founders have technological knowhow and industrial experience but were unable to enter the supply chains of companies like ZTE, have persuaded big manufacturers to try their product and show more patience. Chances are that Chinese companies will not be starved of technology: instead our tech giants will be gradually marginalized by their Chinese competitors who would not have had such opportunities prior to the ban.

Finance all this with billions China would have invested in American tech firms and staff it with returning Chinese expat researchers/engineers discriminated against and suspected of spying under reborn McCarthyism, and Beijing could hardly be happier because, in the end, their biggest defense against a trade war is China’s market size that doubles along with wages every decade.

Can China Play Offence? China is seeking an ever-closer union with the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, RCEP, between all ten ASEAN members, China, India, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand–half of the world’s population and forty percent of global GDP, thirty percent larger than NAFTA growing twice as fast. Expect to see it concluded this year. The Belt and Road Initiative already facilitates trade between seventy-three member countries that comprise two-thirds of world population and a third of the world’s nominal GDP–even without Japan and India. And BRI is negotiating to merge with the EAEU (183 million consumers and nominal GDP of $4 trillion) which Turkey and Iran have expressed interest in joining.

The world is well prepared for Washington’s withdrawal from the WTO which, given its record, will be something of a relief. Most of the tools for handling global trade without the US are in place making it likely that protectionism, unilateralism and self-imposed isolation will only demonstrate that the world can get by pretty well without us.

Reality Check. Sometime between 2020-2025, every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health and old age care. On that day there will be more homeless, poor, hungry and imprisoned people in America than in China and 450,000,000 urban Chinese will have higher net worth and more disposable income than the average American. Their mothers and infants will be less likely than ours to die in childbirth, their children will graduate from high school three years ahead of–and outlive–ours. If China wins the trade war and the world’s hearts and minds, it’s pretty much game over, almost by default.

 
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  1. Old Left says:

    For at least a couple of decades I’ve wondered how it is that the astonishing levels of stupidity and delusion rampant in workplaces, classrooms, and entertainment in America had somehow not diminished America’s standing in the world. In the last few years, and particularly since Trump took office with that inane MAGA slogan, I realized that the effect had merely been hidden by the sheer bulk of the American empire. In the last election, a contest between two of the vainest, empty, and corrupt figures in public life, the rot became visible. The meme that Trump is incompetent and plain crazy hides the uglier truth that the country has nothing better with which to replace him. The ruling class is shooting blanks. It has degenerated into a class of bird-brained twits insulated from reality and enervated by obscene wealth. American politics are now a Punch and Judy show for morons, Democrats and Republicans equally devoid of any vision beyond winning the next election so they and their cronies can retain a place at the trough. Meanwhile, the only thing the American media is good for is manufacturing hysterias about Russian collusion and victimized women and pet minorities.

    I’d say the real advantage that China (and Russia) have over the US is that their leadership is not insane.

  2. Yee says:

    This trade war thing is about who is the last man standing.

    It’s not about who is going to lose more but about who is better at handle the lose. If Navaro and Trump believe just because China’s exports to the US is much larger than the US exports to China, the war is easy to win, they’re naive.

    Anyway, I suspect the whole thing isn’t about trade deficit at all. Its real aim is to de-stabilized China. There’s serious money to make in the destruction of a country.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @unpc downunder
  3. Old Left, your analysis is factually irrefutable.

  4. Franz says:

    Amen!

    And predicted by every last (few) non-bought-off union committeeman two decades ago.

    They said, listen: “Give China the means of production and China will, in a few years, have the wherewithal to build a colossal and enduring middle class. Period. It works that way.”

    Whilst the USA will have overpopulation, a warring class of “enriching” aliens plundering the place like Norse Vikings plundered the Irish Coast, and no, repeat, NO chance of reversing the trend in anyway with overpopulation and a mismatch of ethnicities bound and determined to kill each other.

    Only enclaves will save us, some think, imagining our former enemies will allow that sort of thing to happen when we are broke, destitute and the hostiles against us are swarming to destroy what little will be left.

    Little wonder the War Party favors attacking as much as possible. They have a point. Conquest is at least a way out, no matter how wretched the odds may be.

  5. m___ says:

    The comparison implicitely supposes growth, production, dominance as the solution to a global human world of quality. This worldview preposition is not, China is way too conventional and human-historical to be an alternative to a world of quality of life.

    Rightful analysis (no false notes) of insignificant factors as to the future of humankind. A practical, myopic mindset as compared to overview. The “bee-hive” (machine like men, continuous, smarter leadership) model of China can be superior to the “cage of rats” model of the US, but does it matter?

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  6. Tulips says:

    I have a relative, an engineer with a German-owned machine company near Boston, who delivered custom-designed plastic extrusion machinery to a Chinese firm. The contract required his company to train the machine operators. He expected to be teaching 12 or 15 high school grads. Instead the operators had engineering degrees, were very attentive, and asked detailed questions. He was impressed. That was in the mid-1990s.

    • Replies: @Tom Welsh
  7. Paul Krugman (and the like) breezily brush aside concerns about our trade deficits while poopooing those who fear losing our technical preeminence to China.

    “All will be well” he says, (well, I’m putting the words in his mouth, but they embody the sentiment) “because, you see, productivity gains in our economy have averaged 2.5% for the last 100 years. And that means (by the rule of 72) that in 30 years we will all be twice as rich. So don’t worry about the trade deficit or government debt or whether there will be enough in the Social Security fund to pay out benefits when you retire or whether Medicare will be bankrupted by then either because we’ll all be twice as rich then and that will offset all those obligations! ” “Wheeeeeeeee!”

    Problem is, the anticipated productivity growth didn’t materialize. Instead we’ve been limping along at 1.3% so all the debt we incurred in the interim is a millstone around our necks. And now our drug-addled workforce is rusty, our factories in China and Mexico…..

    Nevertheless, I don’t entirely agree with Godfree Roberts, who seems to take a sadistic delight in the plight of the American worker.. At one time, Americans did build things well and we could again irrespective of anything China does. It’s just that there’s no will for that in high places. But it’s nothing a good world war wouldn’t fix, which is why the Globalists are always running down nationalism.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  8. Wally says:

    So how are these new & relatively low US Tariffs on Chinese goods bad for the US worker & US economy while the long standing & massive Chinese tariffs on US goods not bad for the Chinese workers & Chinese economy?

    • Replies: @Hu Mi Yu
    , @Anonymous
    , @map
  9. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Yee

    There’s serious money to make in the destruction of a country.

    Correct, the U.S., specifically its middle-class, has been decimated/destroyed and sold out by its 1% (many of whom are Jewish and feel no allegiance to the historic American nation and people (WASPs)), to the advantage of the Chinese et al. middle classes, even Godfree Roberts, indirectly, admits to that:

    Sometime between 2020-2025, every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health and old age care. On that day there will be more homeless, poor, hungry and imprisoned people in America than in China and 450,000,000 urban Chinese will have higher net worth and more disposable income than the average American.

    http://www.unz.com/article/trade-war-iii/#p_1_40

    China’s peaceful and win-win approach to bring humanity forward through commerce …

    Mr. Wong,

    the American/Western lower middle class has not benefited from this “win-win” approach
    [...]
    It is by now well-known that the period from the mid-1980s to today has been the period of the greatest reshuffle of personal incomes since the Industrial Revolution. It’s also the first time that global inequality has declined in the past two hundred years. The “winners” were the middle and upper classes of the relatively poor Asian countries and the global top 1%. The (relative) “losers” were the people in the lower and middle parts of rich countries’ income distributions, according to detailed household surveys data from more than 100 countries between 1988 and 2008, put together and analyzed by Christoph Lakner and myself, as well as my book Global Inequality: A New Approach for the Age of Globalization, which includes updated information to 2011.

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/china-and-the-us-rational-planning-and-lumpen-capitalism/#comment-2068535

    The Chinese are trying to influence and control the U.S. by influencing and controlling influential, elite U.S. Jews.
    [...]
    The Chinese Believe That the Jews Control America. Is That a Good Thing?
    [...]
    If China’s global clout does not yet match its status as one of the world’s fastest-growing economies, developing closer ties with Israel and the Jewish Diaspora may be a relatively easy way to widen China’s influence, or so some Chinese leaders seem to believe.

    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-yellow-peril-comes-to-washington/#comment-2454769

    How China “Captures” US Officials

    Source: https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-yellow-peril-comes-to-washington/#comment-2465085

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  10. Yee says:

    FKA Max,

    It’s pretty funny that, in China, we have the similar worry that the domestic and foreign capitalists (1% for you) are trying to take over every industry. All they want is privatization of everything.

    Well, we think we can solve the problem by resisting further privatization, and “ThreeCranes” thinks a world war can solve the problem, the vast majority of American people think tariffs can solve the problem…

    Not sure how this whole thing turn out. But I suspect those who are viewed as enemy by Chinese or Americans are the same people.

  11. FKA Max says: • Website
    @ThreeCranes

    Krugman is actually quite knowledgeable on these matters:

    Krugman Praises Paul Ryan’s Corporate Tax Reform Plan

    Border Adjustment Tax Out of Tax Reform Plan

    Establishmentarians Robert Reich and Larry Kudlow disagree with Paul Krugman:

    Former Secretary Of Labor: Border Adjustment Tax Makes Absolutely No Sense | Power Lunch | CNBC

    Border-adjustment tax (United States)
    [...]
    ” It would “protect the U.S. tax base by improving business incentives” by “changing the system from taxing companies based on where they produce to based on where they sell.”
    [...]
    Border-adjustment taxes would eliminate incentives that drive US corporations to “shift profit overseas and overcharge for purchases from subsidiaries abroad.”[5] For example, Apple Inc has been criticized for allegedly gaming the existing tax system.[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destination-based_cash_flow_tax#Advantages

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/the-other-new-revolutionary-russian-weapons-systems-asats/#comment-2421848

  12. Alfa158 says:
    @Old Left

    And one characteristic of their leadership not being insane is that they don’t despise their own native people and work for their subjugation and annihilation. Well, bird-brained twits can only coast so long on momentum.

    • Replies: @myself
  13. China’s debt is mostly between government departments in an economy growing three times faster than ours

    This is a completely misleading statement. How much faster they are growing than OECD is not the true measurement of their underlying liabilities.

    What matters is how much faster their own nominal debt growth is growing relatively to their nominal GDP growth. And it has grown far faster. That’s what matters for them.

    It is instructive that the author spends very little time on the most pressing issue, debt, likely because he knows that is where the defence of the Chinese model is the weakest. Maybe he should spend some time looking at total credit growth including shadow banking.

    In the history of financial crises, it is often the speed of the leverage which counts as much as the total amount. Since 2009, China has amassed huge liabilities in the financial sector, both on-balance and off-balance, and their total credit growth (including shadow banking) is still rising faster than nominal GDP, despite promises to the contrary.

    It will also likely have to grappe with household sector debt issues in the 2020s.

    Please note that while household debt has risen rapidly, its total share of bank debt has been growing far slower. This indicates that debt leverage has been broad-based in an economy and that vulnerabilities are widespread (including in the non-financial corporate sector).

    That said, I think that
    1. China’s vulnerability from trade tariffs is in fact quite limited
    2. The US will not shrink its current account deficit with the Chinese companies in any meaningful way, but what will happen is that plenty of Chinese companies will shift their operations to ASEAN and similar places and this deficit will thus increase through intermediaries. So these companies will still outcompete US companies but from different geographic locations, thereby masking the CAD. Additionally, as a country of the global reserve currency, the US has no choice in running a permanent CAD.
    3. China will continue to rise as a global power, but its over-reliance on heavy debt leverage at an early phase is a significant departure from previous East Asian success stories and thus any comparison with them is no longer valid past a certain threshold. This doesn’t even take into account that they(JP, Taiwan, SK) threw away their strategic autonomy in exchange of the US security umbrella in order to pursue mercantilist policies in a bargain that a large and powerful country like the Chinese obviously can never accept. This at the heart of the current conflict and friction.

  14. peterAUS says:

    ….Reality Check. Sometime between 2020-2025, every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health and old age care…..

    Hahahahaha…oh my God….

    Crazy.
    Just……crazy

    I’ve seen some ludicrous statements on this site, but the above is the champion.

    Impressive.

    Good thing, should that happen (as never…), is that all “our” Chinese will go back home.
    Yeah…..

  15. Interesting essay. I’d just share two thoughts:

    Becoming a competent worker is an ability that takes most people years of practice to learn. Hollowing out American industry and offering numerous welfare alternatives has allowed our talent base to degrade. It will take time to get back, but the only way to learn this is by doing. If it means we have less plastic garbage for a few years, we’ll survive. Large picture, there’s a moral quality to work and our current crazed college campuses can’t help but be exaggerated by the fact that our strong dollar and low-skill immigration mean that many don’t have to work in anything but FIRE industry paper pushing jobs that don’t produce anything or have consequences.

    Also, I’m sure things are better in China than 15 years ago, but I’ll believe they’ve hit parity with us when Chinese immigration dries up. By way of comparison, we see very little immigration from Japan and haven’t seen much for 40 years.

  16. @peterAUS

    You realise that with an OECD GDP/capita (take middlish UK at £28k/person), those goods and services cost no more than one third of GDP? It’s not Adam Smith’s 18th century anymore. Technological progress has lowered the costs of necessities to the level where ‘unlimited wants, limited resources’ must be rationally balanced with ‘limited needs, limited resources’, perhaps as the primary objective.

    £1400 (5%) for a food UBI
    5% of GDP for housing construction (with £200k build three bedroomers means for 2% you cover 210k additional yearly demand + 3% for 30-40 years to cover 10m undersupply since early 90s)
    10% health (6-7% NHS + 2% insurance now)
    10% education (5.5% now)
    2% defence (The socialist good)

    32% (29% in long run) of GDP to cover needs. Network industries making no sense privately, add some % to cover transport and bills. Maybe you’ll hit 37-40% in the long run.

    But then there is no hungry, no homeless, no unhealthy, no undereducated – and this is the point – human capital in the country. How and whether they participate in the labour force is the next question, but 60-65% of the economy remains regulated free market, so it’s not like there is nothing for the invisible hand to tinker with, and ‘unlimited wants’ is never trumped by ‘access to freedom from destitution’.

    Goal posts move, the solution to the problem of human misery must adjust accordingly. Sadly the West is filled with sophists, and practicality is trumped by ideology, at almost every decision point.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  17. WHAT says:
    @peterAUS

    It`s just that all those ethnic chineese with bad social score will be unpersoned and therefore no longer proper chineese that you have to count, lel.

    What is Roberts` take on social score, by the way?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  18. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    I just saw this article from AEI trying to debunk that the traditional American middle class (family) is being or has been destroyed:

    1. Middle-Class Shrinkage. If the middle class is shrinking, where are they going? There are only two places/directions they can go: Up or Down. And in fact, the middle class really is shrinking, but it’s because so many US households are moving up to higher income groups, not down to lower-income groups, as the chart below shows (thanks to AEI’s Olivier Ballou).http://www.aei.org/publication/yes-the-us-middle-class-is-shrinking-but-its-because-americans-are-moving-up-and-no-americans-are-not-struggling-to-afford-a-home/

    The article fails to mention the following:

    7. middle-class families are more fragile and more dependent on two incomes

    Though modest, the improvement in middle-class family incomes over the past several decades is entirely thanks to women’s added work hours and earnings. According to
    Heather Boushey and Kavya Vaghul at the Washington Center for Equitable Growth, were it not for women’s economic contributions, middle-income families would have experienced stark declines in income over the 1979 to 2013 period.
    The Council of Economic Advisers reported that the economy is 13.5 percent larger ($2 trillion) as a result of women’s increased participation and working hours since 1970. As they note, “Essentially all of the income gains that middle-class American families have experienced since 1970 are due to the rise in women’s earnings.”

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06/05/seven-reasons-to-worry-about-the-american-middle-class/

    Over the 60 years following WWII, women’s labor-force participation jumped from 35% to 75%. In the 70s alone it jumped from 50% to 65%.https://angrybearblog.com/2013/09/did-the-baby-boom-labor-force-surge-cause-the-great-inflation.html

  19. akokral says:
    @peterAUS

    I remember when they say it about former East blog. Some countries have better living standards then some Western countries. Reality is that China is growing. There are still some industries where they lack:
    - plane building ( large scale)
    - advanced jet production ( large scale)
    - design and production of microchips
    - operating system
    - advanced tooling and machinery
    China is committing serious resources in all of these fields. So we will see what future will bring.
    Also thanks to idiotic forgein policy, they force Russia to partnership with China. It give China energy stability, as they will have Siberian energy in really good prices. Plus they are working on the North shipping route to Europe. This controlled by Russia, which have dozens of military installations there.

  20. Yee says:

    peterAUS,

    “Crazy.
    Just……crazy”

    Not at all… Every Chinese probably already own a house now, in their hometown, that it. The problem is that we want another one in the city, especially top-tier cities.

    It will only be crazy if the goal was “every Chinese will own a house at wherever they want”.

    Same thing for the rest of the goal. There will be all those things, although pretty sure not as good as we want them.

    As for the Chinese in your countries, I’m quite sure they didn’t go there because they had no house, no food and no job in China.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Jeff Stryker
  21. It’s all good.

    This trade war will bring about the end of American hegemony over the global economy that much sooner.

    Then we won’t be able to do things like blackmail Iran at Israel’s behest.

  22. mog says:

    There are certainly plenty of contrary views out there. The UK gov recently issued a report suggesting that the US is ‘winning the trade war’. Maybe they are necessarily biased (?)
    The Shanghai Index has dropped 20% or there abouts since the beginning of the year and the Chinese currency has been hit hard by the US tariffs.
    There are longer term trends that point to a major downturn in China (and consequently, everywhere) sometime in the next 12 months. The unavoidable effect of diminishing resource quality (especially energy sources) means that the promise of half a billion heavily consuming middle class in China is disputable to say the least. Roberts’s article brushed over the debt problem without considering it in any depth.

    https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/the-next-financial-crash-is-imminent-and-chinas-resource-crisis-could-be-the-trigger-be108b2731e9

    • Replies: @myself
    , @Hbd investor
  23. Tyrion 2 says:

    Is it only white people who become sycophantic liars for other countries or do non-white people do it sometimes to?

    Regardedless, please get a clue with your endorsement of the claim that $12 an hour is a good wage for a skilled job (after 5 years).

    It isn’t. I got paid that aged 18 doing a summer job, for which I required a week’s training.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  24. Weaver1 says:

    I see the “IQ is everything” crowd is at it again. China suffers from corruption, atheism, and workfare inefficiency. It has significant problems, as does the US. US problems are 90% immigration related, but that’s another topic.

    China is wanting to make a very difficult transition. I expect China could come to replace the US as global ruler, but that won’t happen in the 2020s. A key word is “could”, because IQ is simply not everything. Polities are more complicated. There is much more complexity to political science.

  25. The term “trade war” is neoliberal MSM propaganda. We are simply moving out of an era of extreme, ideologically-driven free trade and back into a more pragmatic era where tariffs are a normal part of international commerce. Get over it WTO. And no, America won’t suffer from increasing tariffs. The benefits from tariffs will outweigh the negatives. Contrary to what neoliberal economists will tell you, working class Americans spend most of their income on rent, fuel, food, trade services and utility bills, not toasters and T-shirts from China. Wealthier Americans may have to pay more for a Lexus or a Rolex but who cares. Americans shouldn’t be buying so many imported goods anyway.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Philip Owen
  26. @Polish Perspective

    Stop thinking of tariffs as a weapon, you’re been drinking too much neoliberal kool-aid. They’re a useful revenue gathering tool that can also help to stimulate the local economy.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  27. Medvedev says:

    PISA tests show their high schoolers graduating three years ahead of ours in STEM subjects and add to that their five point IQ advantage and you get a labor force comfortable in the 21st century.

    This is manufactured lie sponsored by Chinese government.

    Hard to fathom that 1.4 billion Chinese have the same average IQ as Japanese and Koreans. And if you discount many lower-IQ Chinese prefectures the rest, supposedly, have even higher IQ than Japanese and Koreans.
    More likely explanation: Chinese cheat, cheating is fine as long as you get ahead and succeed.

    Look at Vietnam (94 IQ) or Russia (98 IQ).
    Vietnam exceeds in PISA and math/physics/programming competition over many higher IQ Western countries. Russia exceeds in math/programming competitions. Putting hard work and studying well can put 94 IQ Vietnam ahead of 100 IQ Sweden.
    Especially, when liberals take control of the education and praise dumbing down the population: do not encourage success and competition, no emphasis on hard work, giving homework is racist, everyone is “equal”, you may be punished for getting ahead etc.

    • Replies: @Deplorable
    , @Anon
  28. Sam J. says:

    It doesn’t matter how good the Chinese are or any of the rest of the things mentioned. The Chinese are following the same path of Mercantilism that the Japanese are and we did to the British. We can’t survive like this. The Japanese and Chinese business organization structure can not be fought with free trade. It a losing game from the beginning. That it will cause losses for all combined if we refuse to play this distorted game any more is their fault. So the only choice is to have some industry and lose a little or to have no industry at all and lose it all. I’d rather have some industry.

    This has all been gone over in detail by various watchers of trade and manufacturing many years ago and they have been proven right. There’s no point in any trade with Japan and China under the rules we have now. We’d be better of with zero trade with them. Europe will figure this out sooner or later themselves. [I'm sure they know]I think they are already grumbling about it.

    We should ask China and Japan for 15 years of free trade into their countries. When we have free trade the 15 years starts. The whole time we should either cut off trade of raise tariffs to better than 50% levels. After 15 years of free trade we will cut tariffs.

    I would like the US government to refuse to allow any technology funded by the US not be allowed to be used overseas but anyone be able to use it in the US. Maybe some arrangements could be made with countries without ruinous trade strictures on our country.

    • Replies: @Herald
  29. Anonymous[104] • Disclaimer says:
    @Old Left

    Old Leftist never had any children. The Leftist meme that Trump is incompetent and plain crazy hides the uglier truth that the degenerate Left lost the election to a fellow who spent half the money of Hillary, and will never beat him, as the Left fades away into nothing.

  30. Tom Welsh says:

    “China is still forbidden to acquire a host of technologies the US considers strategic and still blocked from participating in projects like the ISS”.

    Er, it’s surprising to learn that the US government is the gatekeeper for ISS participation. Last I heard, everyone who comes from and goes to the ISS does so on Russian vehicles.

    What is Washington going to do – refuse to let the Chinese use their trampolines?

    Russia should end its cooperation with the USA on the ISS, and cooperate with China instead.

  31. Tom Welsh says:
    @Old Left

    “I’d say the real advantage that China (and Russia) have over the US is that their leadership is not insane”.

    From the article itself, it seems that President Trump agrees with you.

    ‘President Trump observed, “China’s leaders are much smarter than our leaders…’

    • Replies: @Herald
  32. Tom Welsh says:
    @Tulips

    That reminds me of the old story – widespread in the world of computing – from the 1970s. An American company decided to try sourcing its microprocessor chips from a Japanese supplier, to find out how their quality and prices compared with the standard US suppliers.

    At the first meeting, after some discussion one of the American businessmen said, “In every batch of 100 chips we expect to have no more than 4 or at most 5 defective ones”.

    The Japanese went into an anxious huddle and talked in their own language for some time.

    Eventually the spokesman returned to the table and asked, “How would you like to have the defective chips delivered?”

    • Replies: @UnzReader
  33. myself says:
    @Alfa158

    And one characteristic of their leadership not being insane is that they don’t despise their own native people

    China’s leaders and members of its elite identify far more closely with their countrymen than ours (America’s) has since perhaps the late 1970s to early 1980s, when we had the first stirrings of production moving abroad.

    Not saying it’s 100% (of course not), but their being rooted in their national identity is deep and widespread. After all, the Chinese elite have arisen from out of the mass of their own people, and they recognize and acknowledge this.

  34. I’m flabbergasted how, what in the good old days was protectionism, now is a trade war.
    In 1973 I had a problem with my Saab while being on holiday in France.
    Went to a garage, they did not want to do anything ‘foreign cars, a catastrophe’, at the time in France one indeed just saw French cars.
    I found out there were two Saab dealers, one in Marseille, and one in Paris.
    I left wife and child with the house trailer on the camping, and with some trouble drove the 180 or so miles to Marseilles.
    BTW, in 1955 in Great Britain, just British cars.

  35. alexander says:

    One has to consider that belligerent war making, primarily throughout the middle east, has been , hands down, the number one priority of every successive US administration, since 2001.

    China, during that same time period , has spent exactly ZERO on belligerent war making , preferring instead to build its economy and its middle class.

    One has to recognize, too, that not only has our war budget quadrupled since 2000 , but the US has overspent what it has budgeted in, by a whopping 800 billion per year.

    China has not.

    This has created, virtually overnight, the greatest amount of taxpayer debt in US History (with no real way to pay for it).

    $ 21.5 trillion dollars.

    All of this catastrophic “overspending” has gone, like a bee line, directly towards “war making”, our “war profiteers”, and bailing out the big banks.

    None has gone to the US middle class .

    One has to recognize , too, that our pentagon has been audit-free for the entire duration.

    What this means is that Americans have been effectively “forbidden” from viewing how their tax dollars are spent.

    War profiteering, over the past two decades, may well account for the greatest migration of the nations wealth, into the hands of the one percent, in US history.

    In a mere eighteen years the entire US Government has been transformed into a grotesque version of its former self. Where once there was a budget surplus, fidelity to the constitution, and accountability to the American People…

    There is now… near infinite debt… from near infinite spending…. on near infinite wars …all for the “one percent” war profiteers..

    China has had no such problem.

    • Replies: @Biff
  36. myself says:
    @Chief Seattle

    By way of comparison, we see very little immigration from Japan and haven’t seen much for 40 years.

    Almost 50 years, I think. Emigration from Japan (to anywhere else in the world) was on the decline from the late 60s, and was only a trickle from the 70s onward.

    OTOH, there’s still quite a lot of emigration from South Korea, much of it to the rest of Asia, but significantly also to North America and Europe.

    And South Korean domestic living standards are roughly on par with Japan’s, in real world terms. I’m at a loss to explain this.

  37. Anonymous[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @Weaver1

    China suffers from atheism? A dose of reality:

    First, less religion in a nation correlates with more wealth. “Woe unto them who are rich!” See “Losing religion can be seriously good for your wealth” http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/losing-religion-can-be-seriously-good-for-your-wealth-hg6m6sfm8

    Second, Chinese are richer than devout nations.

    Graph source: “The Wealthiest Nations Are Also the Least Religious… Except for One”

    http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2018/08/03/the-wealthiest-nations-are-also-the-least-religious-except-for-one-2/

    • Replies: @Weaver1
  38. myself says:
    @mog

    The Shanghai Index has dropped 20% or there abouts since the beginning of the year and the Chinese currency has been hit hard by the US tariffs

    Mixed picture here, IMHO.

    Stock markets in China aren’t as tied or as crucial to the real economy as those in the West. They also are less of an indication of where the economy is going. There MIGHT be signs of the U.S. “winning” the trade war, but the stock market decline isn’t one of them.

    As for the Chinese currency being hit hard by the tariffs – yes, it has.

    • Replies: @mog
  39. UnzReader says:
    @Tom Welsh

    LOL!!!…LOLLOLLL!!!….LOLLLOLLLL!!!!

  40. mog says:
    @myself

    Have you read about, or do you ‘buy into’ the biophysical argument?

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  41. Deschutes says:
    @Chief Seattle

    You say-

    Hollowing out American industry and offering numerous welfare alternatives has allowed our talent base to degrade.

    ‘Numerous welfare alternatives’? Like what? Since at least 1980 there has been a nonstop war on social programs in USA (welfare payments, foodstamps, child support, medicaid, job retraining etc). It’s called austerity and/or neo-liberalism. If you are trying to say Americans who lost their jobs then applied for ‘numerous welfare alternatives’ I would call you delusional and seriously misinformed. Of all modern industrialized countries the U.S. ranks dead last in terms of social welfare programs.

    • Replies: @Neal
  42. @Weaver1

    I don’t think atheism has much to do with wealth accumulation, unless atheism is connected with low trust(transaction inefficiency). But highly religious South America is pretty low trust.

    • Replies: @Weaver1
  43. “Die Juden sind unser Unglück!” (“The Jews are our misfortune!”) They are the misfortune not only of Germany but also of Europe and the US.
    The jews and their collaborators have deliberately ruined our countries by having them overrun by low-IQ third-worlders. The end is near, well planned, and inevitable.
    We are not generally inferior to the Chinese or any other people; we have created far better art, music, and science than they…until we became ruled by the jews and their media.

  44. Herald says:
    @Tom Welsh

    That was Trump’s finest moment.

  45. Agent76 says:

    If only folks were really more informed

    May 4, 2012 General Motors is becoming China Motors

    General Motors is becoming China Motors. Forget the spin. The evidence is clear and convincing. Did U.S. taxpayers save GM for China? Listen to the candid comments of GM’s CEO.

  46. @mog

    >diminishing resources

    If resources were diminishing, why are mined commodities still dirt cheap?

    >The Shanghai Index has dropped 20% or there abouts since the beginning of the year and the Chinese currency has been hit hard by the US tariffs.

    Irrelevant since the chinese stock market is basically a state run casino. Only a tiny fraction of china’s companies are listed.

    When a us company need money they turn to the stock market.

    When a chinese company needs money they turn to the government.

    Just for comparison nasdaq has around 3300 companies, Shanghai stock exchange has around 100, 2800 companies on nyse

    >Roberts’s article brushed over the debt problem without considering it in any depth.

    No he didn’t, a country needs debt to grow. Debt and credit go hand in hand. When a countries debt increases it means chinese people are lending money to each other.

    When a new business is started the founder needs to borrow money.

    Now what level of debt is healthy is up for debate, but too much debt see the 2008 housing bubble can explode and tank the economy, likewise too little debt aka nobody lending other people money is bad for the economy because this means that current businesses are not expanding and new businesses aren’t being created

    China’s level of debt and type of debt is healthy for a growing economy

    Of note, the most important which is household debt is extremely low

    In general borrowing money to create a new tech company is “good debt”

    Borrowing money to buy a gucci bag is not

    • Replies: @mog
    , @Anon
  47. Agent76 says:

    Just in case anyone missed this huge annocement back in 2016

    Oct 1, 2016 RISE OF CHINA – China’s Yuan / RMB

    Joins Elite Global Reserve Currency Club Currency’s entry into IMF basket a milestone in long march to international acceptance Renminbi joins U.S. dollar, euro, yen, and British pound in SDR basket Change represents important milestone for IMF, SDR, and China Move recognizes and reinforces China’s continuing reform progress.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  48. Herald says:
    @Sam J.

    Right then, let’s do as you suggest. I’m sure Trump will go for it.

  49. Respect says:

    There was a wise northamerican saying : ” if you can not win them , join them ”

    I don`t know whether it is still in consideration in the US or not .

    • Replies: @hydro
  50. buckwheat says:

    Any country that has to support a black underclass is doomed when it comes to competing with the world. Anyone that has had to work with blacks knows the difficulty that comes with that burden. And on a national scale its impossible.

  51. Neal says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Ray Dalio has a free book on debt.

    https://www.amazon.com/Big-Debt-Crises-Ray-Dalio-ebook/dp/B07GLBHM48

    Basically he said that it matters whether the debt is in your currency or foreign currency.

  52. Hu Mi Yu says:
    @Wally

    So how are these new & relatively low US Tariffs on Chinese goods bad for the US worker & US economy while the long standing & massive Chinese tariffs on US goods not bad for the Chinese workers & Chinese economy?

    Because our workers are dependent on those low cost goods from China, whereas China’s workers are not affected. Our exports are luxury goods: not essentials.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  53. nsa says:

    The holy grail for rural white trash America is Social Security Disability. When the mill closed in Aberdeen WA, most of the layed off 430 employees got on it…..mostly for bad backs, but mental problems and goofy new ages diseases like fibromyalgia also qualify you. The legal outfit Binder & Binder place radio ads in rural areas almost guaranteeing they will get you on the Disability gravy train, or you owe them nothing. It only takes the signature of two MDs (supplied by the Binder Boys) and you are on board for the rest of your life, along with access to Medicaid, Food Stamps, preferential tax treatment, free medicinal pot (for the bad back), and other freebies. On average, it pays around $1000/ month tax free….which is more than you make after taxes stocking shelves at WalMart with no bennies at all.
    The solution to the “work ethic gap” is simple and obvious…….Trumpstein must insist the Chinese allow Binder & Binder and their ilk to operate freely and without hindrance in mainland China……..

    • Replies: @Jesse James
    , @Anon
    , @bjondo
  54. The point about ILO conventions is crucial. The US has neutralized all of its municipal-law labor protections so nothing matters but the ILO conventions. You poor downtrodden Americans got the short US end of the stick; China’s working class is better off than you.

    Another important point of comparison is UNCAC compliance. In China, the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection punishes corruption. When they find crooked oligarchs and politicians, they shoot them. The USA has nothing to compare, so US kleptocrats under pressure for looting simply bribe Congress to institutionalize existing corruption.

    Godfree’s objective recital of US deficiencies shows clearly why the US government is an international laughingstock. US apparatchiks are reduced to pathetic dinky-waving like Bolton’s sad nonsense about having the world’s best American justice. Bolton’s got shit for facts. His patriotic slogans are ridiculous and woeful as his flaccid willie flopping around on camera at Plato’s Retreat.

    There is nothing of the US government worth preserving. Except maybe a pyramid of their skulls for future generations to ponder.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  55. @Hu Mi Yu

    They export clothes, shoes handbags

    We slap a label on them, and sell it back to them for 10 times the price

    Branded clothing like gucci, Prada have always been nothing more than massive scams to siphon money off economically productive people

  56. Here’s what else you get in communist China, which I’m sure will not be far behind in the good ol’ USSA: “China’s communist government is implementing a “social credit” scorecard in order to control and coerce more than a billion people into compliance. This is accomplished by high-tech surveillance systems, including facial recognition, body scanning, and tracking. Smartphone apps monitor daily behavior. The score also depends on educational and medical records, state security assessments, and financial records. Already, about 10-million people with low scores have been punished with bans on travel, employment, and credit. A Communist Party document says the program will “allow the trustworthy to roam freely under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step”. Anyone who is critical of the government will be classified as discredited. This is the goal of all collectivist systems.”

    https://needtoknow.news/2018/09/china-built-worlds-first-digital-mark-beast-countries-not-far-behind/

  57. hydro says:
    @Respect

    President Xi has urged Trump to join the Belt and Road Initiative and Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba has promised to create 1 million jobs in the US. But Americans suffer from stage IV malignant Exceptionalism Cancer, the same type of hubris that brought down the Roman Empire.

  58. There are a couple of rather serious negatives that this article does not mention.

    The first one is demographics. China’s population pyramid is in terrible shape. Within 10 years, they will begin to feel the ravages of a retiring workforce and ballooning old age dependency ratios, just like every other developed nation in the world. And there really isn’t anything much that can be done about this. China has belatedly made some relaxations to its one child policy, but that is nowhere near enough to solve the problem. Unless the PRC institutes a 5 child policy (which would entail a draconian reorganization of society which would itself nullify every other claim made in the article), there is no way to avoid the impending depopulation. Having said that, there will inevitably be one or two idiots who like to pop their stupid heads into the comment threads and say something like, “I don’t see what would be so bad about a world with fewer people in it.” Let me preempt them by saying that fewer births, increasing dependency ratios, and shrinking populations wreak havoc on a country in myriad ways, from the economic to the social to the spiritual. It creates a downward spiral that is impossible to recover from until the society finally stabilizes at a much lower level of sophistication, whereupon begins the slow, barely-treading-water logarithmic growth curve that characterized much of human history.

    The second problem is the fact that the rest of the developed world is in the same demographic death trap as China is. There is no real, organic economic growth occurring anywhere on the globe, nor will there be for the foreseeable future. How is China supposed to get significantly better at everything when the world as a whole is entering a period of global economic decline that has no end in sight?

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @Anon
  59. peterAUS says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    Technological progress has lowered the costs of necessities to the level where ‘unlimited wants, limited resources’ must be rationally balanced with ‘limited needs, limited resources’, perhaps as the primary objective.

    Balanced…… you said.
    That’s something, I believe, we, humans, aren’t capable of.

    How and whether they participate in the labour force is the next question….

    Oh yes……..
    My take: they won’t.

    …he solution to the problem of human misery must adjust accordingly.

    Aha.
    My take: some mixture of Orwell and Huxley. Say…..40/60 %.

  60. peterAUS says:
    @WHAT

    It`s just that all those ethnic chineese with bad social score will be unpersoned and therefore no longer proper chineese that you have to count, lel.

    Possible.

    The thing is…”our” rulers could implement the same thing here.
    Or variation of it.

    Plenty of other options to keep the “bottom” in check too.
    Won’t be pretty.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  61. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wally

    Tariffs hurt Americans because we rely on low costs to offset our ridiculously high real estate, health care, and education costs.

    Also, Americans have almost no savings. So higher costs combined with a recession would be very bad for America.

    Higher tariffs in China would also be harmful to the Chinese, but I think less so because the majority of Chinese don’t have to face the extremely high costs that we do in America except for in places like Shanghai.

    Also, China is cutting tariffs for other countries while they are raising tariffs on us. This reduces the burden of US tariffs because they are getting goods cheaper from other countries.

    This is the opposite of what Trump is trying to do. The only way manufacturers will relocate to America is if Trump puts tariffs on the whole world, otherwise companies will just move to Vietnam.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @unpc downunder
  62. @Johnnie Walker Read

    Be sure to watch the video in the above post. It is a real eye opener and I would guess the future here in dystopian America.

  63. peterAUS says:
    @Yee

    I’m quite sure they didn’t go there because they had no house, no food and no job in China.

    Hehehe….I feel you missed a little point I am afraid.
    What kind” is the phrase.

    What kind of house. What kind of job. What kind of food.
    And, some other things too: what kind of social services. Like education, health…..police protection.
    Then, what kind of water and air…environment.
    What kind of beach…..haha….

    Anyway, it’s hilarious reading articles like this and watching, constantly, people from China literally dying to get and live here.
    And when they get here doing anything to stay, in any capacity.

    So…….I concede that one day it’s possible the things will improve there so China will be a better place to LIVE than my place. The same possibility I become a lead engineer in IoT enterprise in Sydney.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  64. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @unpc downunder

    You have this backwards. It is precisely because most Americans spend their money on rent, fuel, food etc etc that the US cannot stand a trade war and has the most to lose.

    Americans have no savings and live paycheck to paycheck. Higher cost for imported goods, with still higher rent and energy costs and education costs and healthcare costs is not sustainable.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  65. peterAUS says:
    @Johnnie Walker Read

    China’s communist government is implementing a “social credit” scorecard in order to control and coerce more than a billion people into compliance. This is accomplished by high-tech surveillance systems, including facial recognition, body scanning, and tracking. Smartphone apps monitor daily behavior. The score also depends on educational and medical records, state security assessments, and financial records. Already, about 10-million people with low scores have been punished with bans on travel, employment, and credit. A Communist Party document says the program will “allow the trustworthy to roam freely under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step”

    Well…at least that’s where Chinese got ahead of us.

    I am sure that our rulers are working, as we speak, to implement it around.
    Not long now, probably. Say…..5 years, tops?

  66. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @unpc downunder

    Tariffs are a tax on ordinary Americans. No thanks.

    Also, how are tariffs going to help the local economy? Why won’t a company just move their factory to Vietnam or Mexico?

  67. mog says:
    @Hbd investor

    I am not expert in any of this and don’t want to pose as one.
    I am interested in the significance or otherwise of the Shanghai fall. The SE is listed at a value of $4.46Trillion (with the Shenzhen at 3.4) in some figures from 2016. A 20% loss on this is no insignificant amount of money, or am I misunderstanding it?
    The article I originally linked to, itself linked to a UKgov report which showed figures of slowing Chinese growth – although the article hedged by saying that some opinions suggest this might be due to the transitional stage of the Chinese economy toward more domestic consumption.
    I think I grasp the significance of different kinds of debt, and the importance of relationships between these different kinds of debt, their rate of expansion and the rate of GDP growth. Is it not true that several researchers who have studied these variables in pre-2008 scenario see similar patterns emerging in China? i.e. an economy unsustainiably increasing its reliance on credit to expand and survive?
    The biophysical argument is often dismissed because it is misrepresented. The key aspect is not that materials and energy are ‘running out’, but that resource quality is declining as ‘the low hanging fruit’ are used up. This doesn’t always present as the most obvious movement in price (especially with regard to oil). The long term trend, it is argued, is toward greater reliance on asset bubbles, which can temporarily keep prices low. That, and the accompanying instability that comes with bubbles.
    It is a resources ‘affordability problem’ rather than a supply problem. Charles Hall is the key academic in the field to my knowledge.
    Another piece compiled by N Ahmed about a Chinese report into a looming energy crisis:

    https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/chinas-economic-boom-is-about-to-be-cut-short-by-peak-oil-warns-state-funded-study-exclusive-2533df2aeb6b

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  68. My take is that the Chinese, in recent memory, as with the Russians, are closer to having lived “in the dirt” than Americans. If we are all reduced by a trade war, or even a shooting war, to a state where we lose the past 100 years of development, it will hurt us far more than them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @MarkinLA
  69. Miro23 says:
    @Dong Feng DC

    Another important point of comparison is UNCAC compliance. In China, the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection punishes corruption. When they find crooked oligarchs and politicians, they shoot them. The USA has nothing to compare…

    If the US did have something to compare, there wouldn’t be any Congress or Administration left – not such a bad idea really – the replacements would be 100% MAGA and Special Interest free.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
  70. @mog

    >I am interested in the significance or otherwise of the Shanghai fall. The SE is listed at a value of $4.46Trillion (with the Shenzhen at 3.4) in some figures from 2016. A 20% loss on this is no insignificant amount of money, or am I misunderstanding it?

    Not significant

    You seem to be confused with basic definitions

    A stock is just a piece of paper that gives you ownership of a company, the more stocks you hold the bigger share of the profits and the more voting power you have.

    People that want to trade their stocks to each other trade them on a stock exchange.

    So you cited market capitalization, what does this term mean? Market cap is calculated by latest sale price times total shares of stock for the company.

    So if company A had 100 shares, and the bob sold alice a share of company A for $10, the total market cap would be $1000. Now if on the next day bob sold alice another share for $5, the total market cap has now crashed it is now worth $500 losing 50% value and $500 dollars worth of market cap.

    Now did anyone actually lose money? Nope in fact only $15 worth of transactions was made to tank the the market share by 50%.

    Now when you look at the biggest companies on the Shanghai stock exchange

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Stock_Exchange#SSE%27s_Top_10_Largest_Stocks

    SSE’s Top 10 Largest Stocks[edit]
    Source: MarketCapitalizations.com[17] (market values in RMB/Chinese Yuan). Data arranged by market value. Updated on Jan 1st 2015

    PetroChina (1,750.3 billion)
    Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (1,289.1 billion)
    Agricultural Bank of China (1,090.9 billion)
    Bank of China (813.0 billion)
    China Life (711.1 billion)
    China Petroleum & Chemical (592.4 billion)
    Ping An Insurance (357.5 billion)
    China Merchants Bank (342.2 billion)
    China Shenhua Energy Company (334.6 billion)
    Citic Securities (333.5 billion)

    Just from looking at the first 4, they are state owned companies. Which means the Government owns 51%+ over the shares and has no intention of ever putting the shares on the market.

    This is why the Shanghai stock exchange is a glorified casino, because the vast bulk of the largest companies on the exchange are state owned, in addition the majority of the companies in China are not on the exchange.

    It is the bitcoin issue all over again, very few people trading but these few people trading cause huge changes in market cap. Thus not allowing price discovery.

    If a company has a million shares and 999,999 are owned by the state and 1 share is owned by a trader. If the trader trades that 1 share whatever price he gets has no relation to how well the company is actually doing.

    Apple’s market cap is a trillion, but that doesn’t mean that it is really worth a trillion

    ———————————-

    >Is it not true that several researchers who have studied these variables in pre-2008 scenario see similar patterns emerging in China? i.e. an economy unsustainiably increasing its reliance on credit to expand and survive?

    Completely untrue, pre-2008 scenario had debt skyrocketing but it wasn’t translating into GDP growth

    2003-2007 saw US total debt (household, government, corporate) increase from around 6 trillion to 12 trillion. In 2017 our total debt is 13 trillion

    And we averaged less than 2% GDP growth during 2003-2007, When you factor in population growth and inflation. The US simply wasn’t growing

    So now what about China? Yes we see a similar run up in China, But China is growing at 6%

    So what does this mean? Both countries showed debt skyrocketing.

    So what caused the debt to skyrocket. People lending money to other people caused the debt to skyrocket.

    Now earlier I spoke about good debt vs bad debt.

    The US wrote a bunch of loans to give people to buy real estate. No surprise this did not result in GDP growth

    China on the other hand wrote a bunch of loans to give to people to start new businesses or expand their businesses

    See the difference the US was borrowing money primarily consumers so they could be real estate and other consumable goods.

    The Chinese on the other hand are borrowing money to start businesses, and these businesses are succeeding. Thus resulting in GDP growth, rising standards of living, higher wages etc…

    —————————————

    >It is a resources ‘affordability problem’ rather than a supply problem. Charles Hall is the key academic in the field to my knowledge.
    Another piece compiled by N Ahmed about a Chinese report into a looming energy crisis:

    If we were running out of oil, it would be reflected in the market

    http://cdn3.chartsbin.com/chartimages/l_oau_dff4ad5a049ca559d9105471f82bf873

    China will be able to afford oil today and tomorrow

    If we were running out, the companies that pump out oil would suddenly realize that they were running out and would demand higher prices, people and countries would start hoarding oil barrels.

    See Pre Hurricane supply hoarding, people quickly realize that a supply shortage will occur and all the walmarts get raided and people start selling things to each other for vastly inflated prices. This would occur on a countrywide global scale.

    • Replies: @bobbybobbob
  71. Respect says:

    http://www.amerika.org/politics/we-are-witnessing-the-collapse-of-global-leftism/

    chistian tradition vs revolutionary liberalism

    revolution won , western europe & US is reaping what it has sown:

  72. @Medvedev

    The fact that parents have to pay for their child’s schooling keeps the losers, latch-key kids, retards, and slow learners from taking the PISA tests. I don’t know how big of an effect this is, but it prevents an apples to apples comparison.

  73. @Hbd investor

    If we were running out of oil, it would be reflected in the market

    Energy mostly declines in price as it becomes more scarce because there is a feedback loop through the credit markets. Loans are based on the increased use of energy to pay interest. As supply dwindles, or energy costs increase, there is a deflationary effect as it becomes clear that few projects are credit worthy. There is less and less credit to bid on the remaining energy supply.

  74. DB Cooper says:
    @Weaver1

    “I see the “IQ is everything” crowd is at it again. China suffers from corruption, atheism, and workfare inefficiency.”

    What? China suffers from atheism? Atheism is one of the things that give China an advantage over other countries!

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Weaver1
  75. Joe Wong says:
    @anon

    You are so out of date, and you are still fighting a losing battle of gaining American consumer’s hearts and minds with decades old staled fake news and slogans. You should know the only way to win American consumers’ hearts and minds is to offer goods and services with better quality and value, bad mouthing with fake news will not do.

    America declines is because there are too many people full of negativity, they view everything zero-sum, and beggar-thy-neighbour is their default choice of action. Perhaps mud-slinging is American political culture, and it is American way of life, they cannot think and do otherwise.

  76. Joe Wong says:
    @m___

    Sorry to repudiate your self-righteous western worldview, East is East and West is West. We do not want to be one of yours or want you to be one of us. We just want to trade with you at or over the ‘fence’. Fence meaning you mind your own private affairs and I mind my own. I let you be. You let me be. We engage and meet only to trade.

    For beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. One man’s food is another man’s poison. A friend today is an enemy tomorrow. I make my bed I sleep in it. Nobody is superior or inferior to another. We are all entitled to our spot and space in the jungle and to share equally from the equanimous benevolence of the sunshine and the rainfall. All is relative and subjective. How the Indian cowherd, the cow and the cowdung beetle sees the cowpat has no impact on the object at all. The impact is in the eyes of the three different subject minds, The Indian cowherd sees kitchen fuel, the cow sees her own shit and the cowdung beetle sees food. So the Chinese see our “way too conventional and human-historical” as ‘freedom from’ want and need like starvation, poverty, homelessness and joblessness. You see democracy as ‘freedom to’ to bear arms, to have slaves, to have a superiority complex, proselytise your whiteman God, sorry I was thinking of your past, speak your truth, be a drug addict and dealer, to beggar your neighbour, to deny public health to your fellow citizens and all other acts of dishonesty. So stop your self illusions about being the final form of civilization in the Land.

    • Replies: @Anon
  77. Joe Wong says:
    @Polish Perspective

    It is always puzzling on how the West gets their data on the Chinese shadow banking, is it another production of “massive death toll” hypothesis from US Bureau of the Census, the researches of the big three rating agencies, Wall St. ‘s participation in the Chinese shadow banking, or CIA and NED’s WMD evidence factory?

  78. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:

    Latest on Kavanaugh

    Yale canceling classes so students can travel to DC to protest. Day of rage on campus. Yale Harvard etc used to be proud of eminent alums like Calhoun Woodrow Wilson researchers and Supreme Court judges. But because they’re destroying the monuments to those men they will lower their prestige.

    Deborah Martinez who claims Kavanaugh dropped trou and shoved his penis in her face worked for Soros’ Open Society Foundation

    Planned Parenthood claims he will repeal Roe vs Wade all by himself. Note to PP laws are repealed. Court rulings are overturned.

    Attorney Michael Aventitti claims that while in high school Kavanaugh was leader of a gang of rapists who roamed south east Maryland kid napping girls and gang raping them Note to Aventitti he went to boarding school and spent late afternoons nights and weekends at the school under supervision with check ins. It’s a tough school and to qualify for Yale he had a humongous amount of homework plus the myriad activities colleges require.

    How in the world did you stagger out of law school and pass the bar Aventitti?

    Saved the best for last. Amnesty International ordered the Senate not to confirm Kavanaugh because he violated human rights by involvement in torture and rendition after 9/11.

    Soros and Feinstein’s multi billionaire slave labor camp operator husband must have taken over Amnesty International.

    Using my powers of deduction I’ve figured the rational for the torture and rendition accusation is that Kavanaugh was a federal employee on and after 9/11 and as such was “ involved “ in the pursuit of 9/11 suspects and conspirators and accessories before the fact.

    If working for the feds means involvement in torture and rendition, then the mail carriers and every fed and federal contractor was involved

  79. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Medvedev

    Or cheating can put Vietnam ahead of Sweden.

  80. Joe Wong says:
    @peterAUS

    Australia belongs to the people of the First Nations of Australia, the White aliens from the old continent of Europe are squatters.

    • Replies: @Anon
  81. Point by point
    1. Labor – a few factors enter into solving this problem, and it will take another generation, or more to repair. I will only mention 2 areas
    A. Family – the American family has been under attack since the 60′s. currently 33% of U.S, marriages end in divorce, versus China’s 2.67%. Divorce leads to a decline in the moral and social fabric of society, mental health issues, higher crime etc.
    A huge difference between countries.
    B. Education – if anyone believes that our American society hasn’t been purposely dumbed down you haven’t taken a California DMV drivers license test. I took it 2013, and again 1 week ago. In 2013 the test was fairly comprehensive, but today it is designed for dummies. Not only are the questions written at the 3rd grade level, there fewer of them, and you can miss more of them and still pass. Maybe I’m naïve but if the DMV test is dumbed down there can only be 2 reasons. Either our students aren’t up to snuff, or the illegal immigrant population must be serviced too, or both.
    There are a host of subcategories under both A and B. The question to ask is why. I think the reason is a nefarious one.

    • Replies: @Anon
  82. Joe Wong says:
    @peterAUS

    The “bottom” from the old continent of Europe need to be sent back to where they came from and return Australia to Asian like the Muslims kicked the crusaders out of ME. Arming the Indonesians and Filipinos with proper weapons and blocking the American entering the Western Pacific will do the trick.

    • Replies: @Chinese New Zealander
  83. The maga believers will howl like harpies if they read this,,.-

  84. @nsa

    Rural white trash was the labor that built things at American factories and mined the coal that heated your house in the US until the country deindustrialized. Blacks, Latinos and Ivy League leeches did not build much of anything of any sort- ever.

  85. Joe Wong says:
    @peterAUS

    You become a lead engineer in IoT enterprise in Sydney is not likely to happen because you have a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by the zero-sum cold war mentality, but IoT enterprise in Sydney becomes a subsidiary of a Chinese company is entirely possible within a year of two if they are good enough.

  86. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @peterAUS

    If China has problems, I doubt we can destroy it, then Dianne Feinstien’s multi billionaire husband might lose some money. He started investing in China officially the day Kissinger opened to China unofficially before that through the Chinese construction firm , Tong & Tong.

    What’s not to like?

    If China has old age care why are they here in America taking up senior and other low cost government housing, receiving SSI, getting Medicare and medi caid, free bus passes free van transportation , free meals at senior centers, free food at food banks? And why do thousands of them arrive every year? Could it be that Chinese old care is non existent?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  87. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @the grand wazoo

    I took the California teachers certification exam. I remember the algebra part.

    1+x=2 What is x 2+x=3 what is x 3+x=4 what is x LOL

  88. Joe Wong says:
    @mog

    People have a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by the zero-sum cold war mentality cannot accept views different from theirs, because anything other than the Western model of economics, political systems and way of life there is no other possibility on this planet for them.

    Alfred Nobel considered western economics was pseudo science or Voodoo science more precisely, otherwise global financial meltdown in 2008 and other countless economic and financial crisis in the world since capitalism came to dominance would not happen unless all the economists and politicians in the West are heartless and psychopathic.

  89. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Wong

    China is so wonderful why are Chinese swarming to America from slaves locked in shipping containers to wealthy women who come here to have their babies to create an anchor baby citizen to hundreds of thousands of Chinese college students and eve high school kids sent here to go our high schools who live in group homes run by Chinese. Why are there thousands and thousands of 12oo sq ft homes in San Francisco filled with 25 Chinese living in crowded conditions just so they can escape China?

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  90. If everything Roberts said here is correct, and it may be, the administration’s stated reasons for these days of sanctions, and trade wars are just a grip of lies. The currant sad state of Western society, especially here in the US, is so bad that we are not in a position to compete with China on a level field. As it is we are a very corrupt nation at both the federal and state levels, and this fact forces the US to use the dollar, backed by our military, as a weapon of mass destruction. Today everything is hidden from the people, we are lied to by the media so much that when our so called civil servants lie we expect nothing less, and ignore it. It will take a complete overhaul of this government, and 2 generations to fix us. An impossible task for a nation whose leaders are so addicted to instant gratification, and a population that one can argue is so brainwashed we have become morally bankrupt. It can’t go on this way. Or can it?
    First step is the hardest. End the Fed.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  91. Biff says:
    @alexander

    And it’s called “The Project for the New American Century” PNAC. It is to synthesize the wants and needs of a small political class at the expense of everyone else.

  92. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    Is this an example of atheism? Cutting down trees in front of houses because devils live in the trees and the trees prevent good spirits from coming in the house? Kids bring home a stray dog begging to keep it. Parents refuse because the dog is white and a white dog is bad luck. Kids pass dog to White friends. For the next 10 years Chinese parents blame every problem from need for new car battery to breaking a glass on presence of white dog in house for a day.

    I’d call it belief in a supreme being with power over humans.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  93. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Wong

    When China takes over Australia, the Chinese will grind up the First Nation people up for fertilizer.

    • Replies: @myself
  94. A. D. says:

    The Belt and Road Initiative already facilitates trade between seventy-three member countries that comprise two-thirds of world population and a third of the world’s nominal GDP–even without Japan and India. And BRI is negotiating to merge with the EAEU (183 million consumers and nominal GDP of $4 trillion) which Turkey and Iran have expressed interest in joining.

    Very interesting. Can I add the following on the BRI from the EBRD site:

    Belt and Road Initiative (BRI)

    https://www.ebrd.com/what-we-do/belt-and-road/overview.html

  95. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Alarmist

    Yes This!

    Even as prosperous as we are right now, most Americans are barely making it and would not take a drop in living standards at all.

    We are already this close to wide spread riots.

  96. peterAUS says:
    @Anon

    If China has old age care why are they here in America taking up senior and other low cost government housing, receiving SSI, getting Medicare and medi caid, free bus passes free van transportation , free meals at senior centers, free food at food banks? And why do thousands of them arrive every year? Could it be that Chinese old care is non existent?

    Rhetorical question we both know.
    And it’s not just the care for old; plenty of other things suck so bad in China and won’t be getting better. That’s why we have constant influx of desperate Chinese here. Keyword “desperate”.
    And, that does work well with our masters. If we don’t want to work longer and longer hours on more and more demanding jobs, with no paid overtime, with ever decreasing pay and benefits,well, those Chinese will be more than happy to do it.
    As you say:

    What’s not to like?

    if you are senior management/shareholder.
    If there IS something you don’t like, well……..we can always vote for……something.
    Like Brexit, Trump or whatever.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  97. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:
    @nsa

    Good for Binder&Binder and the deplorable proles. What were they supposed to do, move to Seattle and live under the freeway?

    Protestant work ethic is for fools. I’d love to see every White American on welfare. Let the jews, blacks, Asians and immigrants support us for a change.

  98. bjondo says:
    @nsa

    SSD doesn’t make up the jobs the RepubDems sent to China, Mexico, Vietnam.

    Package the politicians, economists, tank scholars, send ‘em to a pulping mill.

    • Replies: @nsa
  99. DB Cooper says:
    @Anon

    The things you described I don’t think is prevalent in current Chinese society. But I have heard of a story of someone cutting a tree in front of his home, not because of devils living in the tree but because of bad feng shui. Anyway this is not atheism, this is called superstition, which is bad, but not as bad as theism, in my opinion.

  100. nsa says:
    @bjondo

    A doctor pal who knows the Social Security Disability racket well estimated the fraud rate at around 70%……but judging by the replies, there is little sympathy here at unz for the overtaxed working stiff. In this area, you see the legions of working age deadbeats out fishing the rivers during working hours on weekdays (bad back and all) while smoking their medicinal to ease the intense pain induced by casting.

    • Replies: @myself
    , @bjondo
  101. Yee says:

    peterAUS,

    “Anyway, it’s hilarious reading articles like this and watching, constantly, people from China literally dying to get and live here.
    And when they get here doing anything to stay, in any capacity.”

    All emigrated Chinese globally accounts for 0.69% of China’s population. They might be an indicator for you, but I doubt they make the Chinese government’s “problem to be solved list”.

    Even the world hegemony US has a percentage at 0.92%, Australia at 2.15%. So I guess Chinese will continue to emigrate even when we reach all standards of your country. Let’s just hope they won’t rise to the US level, or even worse, Australia level.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population#UN_2015_report:_emigrant_population

  102. @Old Left

    I realized that the effect had merely been hidden by the sheer bulk of the American empire

    Rather than the bulk of the American Empire, I suspect brandishing raw military power over most of the planet with 800 military bases in some 70 countries compared to China’s one military base outside its own borders. And the motive? Hegemony in the service of corporations and Zionist interests. All these data are an impressive indication of the diligence that went into comparing the two mega economies. In the end, when America senses its hegemony is threatened, all manner of economic arguments will be invoked by actions that essentially seek to destabilize China and maintain the Empire’s world domination. Recently more sanctions were slapped on China for what amounts to a retarded response :

    …for buying fighter jets and missile systems from Russia, in breach of a sweeping U.S. sanctions law punishing Moscow for meddling in the 2016 U.S. election.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-sanctions/u-s-sanctions-china-for-buying-russian-fighter-jets-missiles-idUSKCN1M02TP

    We are inching ever closer to a world war not because of Commie insanity but because the Empire will not have arrangements any other way.

    • Replies: @myself
    , @MarkinLA
  103. myself says:
    @Anon

    When China takes over Australia, the Chinese will grind up the First Nation people up for fertilizer.

    First Nation are Canadians

  104. myself says:
    @nsa

    In this area, you see the legions of working age deadbeats out fishing the rivers during working hours on weekdays (bad back and all) while smoking their medicinal to ease the intense pain induced by casting

    LOL

  105. myself says:
    @Justsaying

    We are inching ever closer to a world war not because of Commie insanity but because the Empire will not have arrangements any other way.

    Like I said on another thread; the United States might insanely end up instigating “preemptive war” against China. It’ll be America’s only tool left, if the trade war should falter.

    Thinking to replay the Opium War, but forgetting China’s 35 years of development. It isn’t 1842, after all.

    Pearl Harbor, but in reverse?.

  106. @peterAUS

    Are you familiar with China’s economy and wage growth?

    Which part of the statement–between 2020-2025, every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health and old age care–do you find difficult to believe?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @MarkinLA
  107. @Tyrion 2

    You misread the statement.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  108. @Johnnie Walker Read

    Do you know nothing about the OECD and PISA?

  109. Good article from Godfree Roberts.

    The point on China’s human capital is extremely important, and one that I myself have been stressing for years. That’s the key part even if some minor claims are questionable to say the least (e.g. better working conditions).

  110. Erebus says:
    @peterAUS

    And it’s not just the care for old; plenty of other things suck so bad in China and won’t be getting better.

    Peter, you need to get out from under Game of Thrones a little more. As someone who has been in both Australia and China a lot over the last decade, there is nothing in China that hasn’t gotten better over that time. Some of it immeasurably better. Australia is a great place, but it’s sitting still/going backward while China moves forward by the hour.
    As for the old, I happen to know 2 parents of colleagues, in 2 different towns (Tier 3/4) that entered old age homes this year. One with “nursing assistance” (parent is legally blind) and one is more of an old age community. Both govt owned and run. “Sparkling” is the only way to describe the homes, and almost free – for a fraction of their pensions. You’re talkin’ 20 yr old crap.

    If we don’t want to work longer and longer hours on more and more demanding jobs, with no paid overtime, with ever decreasing pay and benefits,well, those Chinese will be more than happy to do it.

    More crap. Just try to hire somebody in China without overtime and decreasing pay & benefits, demanding or not, and you’d know just how stupid your statement sounds. I doubt you’ve ever even been there, never mind hanging around long enough to learn something.

    From #68:

    So…….I concede that one day it’s possible the things will improve there so China will be a better place to LIVE than my place.

    That, Peter, is inevitable unless you get 20M Chinese there. Then it’ll be good for them, and probably less good for you, but at least you’d have an economy.

    The fact is nobody else is going to buy your iron and coal. Or milk and beef. If China stops buying for whatever reason, Australia goes down a whole bunch of notches. I’ll regret that almost as much as you, ’cause I do like the place, but hewers of wood and drawers of water don’t usually live as “well” as the people who contracted them.

    IOW, those younger than you can dream of:

    … becom(ing) a lead engineer in IoT enterprise in Sydney.

    … but that enterprise will most likely be Chinese, or won’t be there at all.

    Anecdotally, the main reason young people emigrate from China (and I know a few) is that China’s just too competitive, and they know their chances of success are higher overseas. Also, youthful exuberances such as travel and adventure also have their allure. The fact that they have the money and wherewithal to emigrate speaks to the matter as well. Poor people have fewer options, and tend to stay put.

    As for older emigrants, an “inherited” memory of when times were very tough plays a role. I know Chinese millionaire$ who literally, personally experienced starvation in their youth. Whatever success one has after that experience is likely to be seen as fragile – too good to be true. China is painfully aware of its 100 yrs of chaos and war.

    The West has been successful for a lot longer than post-Mao China, and that fosters a perception of stability that may in fact prove just as temporary. In fact, I believe that it will prove so sooner, rather than later in much of the West. Australia is in a unique position (along with NZ) to make the right choices, unlike (say) Canada & Mexico, but I don’t like Australia’s chances based on recent moves.

    Then, what kind of water and air…environment.
    What kind of beach…..haha….

    I’ll grant that point, but that’s one of the downsides of 1.4B living in a space not much bigger than Australia’s 25M live. Inevitably, things are dirtier. As Godfree points out, China is making great strides with cleaning that up, especially in Tier 1 cities, but there remain too many places where much remains to be done. BTW, it may surprise you to learn that many people in the world live where there are no beaches at all.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  111. Joe Wong says:
    @Anon

    Perhaps they have a mission to save the world from barbarism by spreading Chinese culture and values, suffering is part of the duty to spread gospel.

    • Replies: @WHAT
  112. bjondo says:
    @nsa

    what sort of work available?
    the overtaxed working stiffs are overtaxed because of those with money and corps and those mentioned in my previous comment 103.

    we have a rigged, crooked system. those deadbeats know it.

  113. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Fair enough. Sorry. Nonetheless $12 an hour is still below the proposed $15 minimum wage.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  114. WHAT says:
    @Joe Wong

    Even ants in their mound have more culture. Chinese locusts have only corruption and infanticide.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Joe Wong
  115. denk says:

    Trumps economic czar,
    Peter Nawarro. in a nutshell,.


    Basically blame every economic woe of fukus on China.
    Not only that, Nawarro tell us China has a master plan to destroy murikkan industries wholesale, [sic]

    whaddaya know, the asshole also double up as
    Trumps military advisor….
    Make way, Jim mad dog Mattis,.
    ‘War with China is inevitable’

    The coming war with China, where to fight and how to win.

    What Im sure is, any war with China will be started by fukus.

    The usual murikkan claptrap about the menacing Chinese ‘militarism’.

    In other words, more Bandits crying robbery stuff from fukus.

    ————–

    Enuff said.

  116. @WHAT

    China was the dominant cultural influence of almost all of East Asia.

  117. Joe Wong says:
    @Johnnie Walker Read

    Every sentence Matthew Carney speaks is laced with cold war propaganda theme and terminology. The video is a speculation based on something exists in London, New York, Sydney, and all other big cities around the world to combat crimes.

    Matthew Carney said at the beginning of the video that based on the Chinese leading AI technology and social credit system that what might happen in the future, but he and his team went on to portray China as the system has already existed and how it was abused by the CCP to restrict human rights on manufactured narratives without proof. It is typical western political campaigning mud sling technique mixing fake news with half baked truth. The video is same as the video “I am an Ukrainian” during the Maidan Riots to destabilize Ukraine.

    Social credit system, score cards, face recognition, finger prints, full body scanning, big data collection and endless laws, police intrusion, courts, prisons, spying and monitoring are all western inventions to restrict human rights and freedoms, Chinese is just following what the West did.

    Besides why does the West carry such intrusive acts it is considered necessary for protecting individual safety, national security, human rights, law and order, etc., but when China follows the West the same acts become all commie’s evil deeds?

    The Video and the article in the link you provided is a cold war style of propaganda blown out of proportion to smear China, because the Aussies have a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism and constrained by the zero-sum cold war mentality.

    The White Aussies are anxious about China rise, because they have done tremendous harm to Asians as the outpost of the British Anglo Empire, they are worried that chicken will come home to roost for their sin. Smearing China with fake news is the remaining straws they have to ease their anxiety.

  118. @Tyrion 2

    It’s $12 for high school grad with no experience, full time with bennies

    Far higher than what you would get at fast food or big retail, part time no benefits

    $15 min is only being proposed for high col areas like seattle, nyc, San Francisco

    Rent in flyover country is cheap

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  119. Joe Wong says:
    @WHAT

    The West does not have their own culture and value, they stole from the Jews, Romans and Greeks who in turn stole from the Middle Easterners. Changing Westerners’ culture should be no different from women changing clothes, is it not?

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  120. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Hbd investor

    Being unable to find quality labour when you’re only offering $12 an hour is not a problem I feel much sympathy for.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  121. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Joe Wong

    China equals Buddhist from India and Communist from Europe. Yet the whole world saw the problems with changing Chinese culture during their Maoist revolution. Lee Kuan Yew did it much better, but it took an exceptional individual.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @myself
  122. @Tyrion 2

    Confucius is neither from India nor Europe.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  123. @Tyrion 2

    By quality labor you mean a high school grad with no experience?

    Doing the equivalent of putting together Legos based on looking at the assembly drawings

    You do realize the position being discussed is assembler, you can google the salaries yourself

    You are literally a mindless grunt sitting on a assembly line, yet $12 an hour with full bennies is too little?

    You are absolutely delusional

    Literally this is the job that godfree was talking about

    https://www.google.com/search?q=assembler+job&client=ms-android-verizon&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif092z1dbdAhVthOAKHbRfCNIQ_AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=560

    Literally assembly line grunt putting parts together

  124. myself says:
    @Tyrion 2

    China equals Buddhist from India and Communist from Europe

    Is that really ALL there is to China? Does that even BEGIN to scratch the surface of Chinese civilization and culture?

    Could’ve fooled me – and professional historians throughout human history.

  125. peterAUS says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Are you familiar with China’s economy and wage growth?

    I am.

    Which part of the statement–between 2020-2025, every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health and old age care–do you find difficult to believe?

    Each and every part of that statement.

    I am not quite sure are you one of those people who have all the facts but are still clueless or simply working for …somebody.

    I’ll put it simple: distribution of wealth and power in a society. You know…1 % and the rest.
    Stuff like that.

    I’be been working with immigrants from China. Also have plenty of them living in my neighborhood. Actually, two houses next to mine are of Chinese, immigrant, families.

    Some of us actually speak with real people.
    You guys just keep reading your charts.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Jeff Stryker
  126. peterAUS says:
    @Erebus

    Comment 130.
    Moving on re “Great China now and even greater in close future”.

  127. gwynedd1 says:

    Too often I see debt aka the liability without getting into the asset side of the equation. Whose asset is it?

  128. Erebus says:
    @peterAUS

    Some of us actually speak with real people.
    You guys just keep reading your charts.

    No, you speak with expats, and you’ve all but confirmed you’ve never been there.

    I can tell you, knowing no less than 6 Australians living in China that they ain’t going back. Moreover, they are all professionals. 2 engineers (automotive), 1 IT, 1 teaches (comp sci), 2 are running factories. Why are they in China? Opportunity and lifestyle.

    So, when it comes to “talking with real people” ya gotta talk to more than your neighbours. They know who you are, and they tell you what they think will hit your hot buttons – they’ve got you pegged by the sound of it.

    BTW, I also know 4 Italians, 2 French, 4 Germans, 3 Russians, a Canadian or 2, a dozen (?) Americans, 3 S. Africans, at least 4/5 Brits, and the list goes on. None of them will tell you what you want to hear.

    Your proclivity for looking at the world through 10′ of 1″ pipe keeps you from being taken seriously here. That may be good enough for a middling career in the Aussie military, but it don’t make the cut here at UR.

  129. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Paul was from Europe too. I don’t meet many Chinese who are self-declared Confucians.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @myself
  130. @Tyrion 2

    Its so baked into the system that self-declaration is redundant. Confucianism is the single greatest influence on China: the reason why education/credentialism is so pervasive, why the gaokao is considered so important, and even involved in the legal system as of late which involves xiào. In practice it actually is also an accumulation of a variety of other thoughts from the Hundred Schools Era.

    At any rate, its more or less a “default viewpoint” modified by other ideologies.

    The idea that China is “buddhism plus communism” is pretty hilariously silly.

  131. Vidi says:
    @Polish Perspective

    How much faster they are growing than OECD is not the true measurement of their underlying liabilities.

    China’s liability, her total external debt, was very small, only 14% of GDP last year:

    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/china/external-debt–of-nominal-gdp

    External debt is the important figure; an internal debt is solvable inside the country and gives little leverage to foreigners. The U.S.’s corresponding figure is far worse, with an external debt of 94% of GDP:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

    As usual, Americans are projecting their worst fears on others.

    • Replies: @anon
  132. map says:

    This entire argument is bs, basically a warmed-over version of David Ritardo’s comparative advantage theory only applied to people. Yeah, the Chinese are where they are because of their innate brilliance…a brilliance that was somehow absent for 800 years while the Europeans and Americans were inventing the entire modern world.

    There were plenty of Chinese people in China…but there were no Chinese railroads. How come? Yet, somehow we are supposed to think they are masters at the things they never created.

    Then you have the usual anecdotes, usually by industry people, about how “brilliant” the Chinese are. They have guys with master’s degrees in EE changing out circuit boards? That’s a job for a technician, not an engineer. It’s like having mechanical engineers swap out your car engine.

    The whole argument completely ignores the role of public policy in shaping the outcome. Just like China demands partnerships, ownership, technology and skill transfer as a condition of doing business in China, so should the same apply to do business in the United States: if you want to sell it in the US, then you will make it in the US using American workers. If that is a problem for you, then I suggest you move your company, your family, your friends, and your employees to China or India and learn to sell to the Chinese or the Indians. But this system of labor and regulatory arbitrage needs to go.

  133. map says:
    @Wally

    Again, these comments are ridiculous.

    This idea of “low cost” is absurd…as if offshore outsourcing and all the other forms of labor and regulatory arbitrage were designed to somehow “pass the savings on to you.” Guess what? They were not.

    The purpose of offshore outsourcing was to raise profit margins, not to pass the savings onto consumers. On one end, profit margins are increased because the costs of production have gone down. On the other end, profit margins increase because prices for consumer goods have gone up or are prevented from going down. How? Globalization allows for multinationals to control supply chains of goods. Once you control the supply chain, you can prevent prices from going down by preventing independent suppliers from flooding markets where the prices are highest. This is very pronounced in, for example, food prices. Global supply chains controlled by a few multinationals are gouging consumers on food by preventing local bumper crops from lowering prices in local markets. Such bumper crops are exported to other countries.

    The complaining about tariffs has nothing to do with higher prices. By the logic of any profit-maximizing firm, prices are always at their highest possible point at any given time for each and every item you buy at the store…even the items on sale. No, the problem with the tariff is that there is no more room to raise prices to accommodate it. Tariffs will force companies to eat the cost because they simply cannot pass the tariff on as higher prices. After all, if they were able to raise prices in the first place, don’t you think they would have done so already?

    What’s worse, the demand for Chinese imports is highly elastic, meaning that the demand is highly sensitive to changes in price…meaning the companies that rely on Chinese imports are in even less of a position to pass those tariff costs onto consumers.

    That is why there is so much noise about tariffs. To believe otherwise, you would have to imagine that a Goldman Sachs banker is somehow concerned about price increases for consumers.

    Make no mistake…tariffs will lower the costs of everything we buy over time because it will break the monopolistic supply chains that control the stuff we consume.

  134. @map

    Keywords: arbitrage of labour and reg’ns.
    The most incisive comment yet.

    Cui bono?
    Capital.

  135. MarkinLA says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    It creates a downward spiral that is impossible to recover from until the society finally stabilizes at a much lower level of sophistication,

    This is nonsense. The physics doesn’t change because there are fewer people. All the advances in technology will still be there and there will still be plenty of people left to further enhance technology. There will simply be a problem of housing large numbers of unproductive people who have to be fed, clothed and cleaned. Society will make due. They may have to be warehoused like cattle but something will be done and it will not result in a lower level of sophistication. Warehousing will make it more efficient to use robotics to dole out medicines and take routine health checks. We have all sorts of robotics in the manufacture of large industrial products such as cars. A lot of that technology will be available for the handling of people that we now use a lot of orderlies for now in hospitals or old folks homes.

    There is no real, organic economic growth occurring anywhere on the globe, nor will there be for the foreseeable future.

    This is equally ridiculous unless you swallow the idiotic economist view that if the overall GDP is going down, it means the country is hurting. Yes, the overall GDP will go down but that doesn’t mean that the people doing the actual work that supports society aren’t better off.

    All this means is that we are going to have to go back to the system that existed prior to WWII almost everywhere and is standard in the developing world. There will be multigenerational households where the kids are reared by the grandparents. The parents are off doing the work that supports society. The grandfather had a garden and the grandmother canned the vegetables.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @peterAUS
  136. MarkinLA says:
    @Anonymous

    This is the opposite of what Trump is trying to do. The only way manufacturers will relocate to America is if Trump puts tariffs on the whole world, otherwise companies will just move to Vietnam.

    While Nike can move a tennis shoe factory for very little, it costs a lot to move an automobile factory. So much so that it makes more sense to expand the ones over here.

    • Replies: @denk
  137. MarkinLA says:
    @Anonymous

    They have no saving because they no longer have good jobs. What is not sustainable is a system where Americans make nothing and are dependent on imports for everything. If you want to see what that looks like, visit the third world.

  138. MarkinLA says:
    @The Alarmist

    How do we “lose” the past 100 years of development? The physics don’t change, the technology developed doesn’t just disappear. Even during the Depression new products and new technology was still being developed. it is just usually at a slower pace because there wasn’t as much seed money available and the government wasn’t as heavily involved in pushing technology.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  139. MarkinLA says:
    @the grand wazoo

    The idea that we need to compete in the world is a side issue. Just taking back our own market from the world, by any means necessary, will result in millions of American jobs. As for competing, we still have companies doing things at a very high level like Boeing and Caterpillar.

  140. MarkinLA says:
    @Justsaying

    You are right about the stupidity of sanctions based on trade with Russia. I support tariffs only to get American jobs back in the US. I do not support using trade for quasi military purposes.

  141. myself says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Well, the mainland Chinese I’ve been around seem to be a weird blend of Daoist, Confucian, and traditional pre-Bronze Age cosmology.

    This combo/hybridization/harmonization of the paradigms of Lao Zi, Kong Fuzi and ancient ways going back to (probably) pre-history is the distilled essence of Chinese identity, of course along with Han ethnicity.

    There are, at this point, very few actual Communists (in fact, I’ve met none, exactly ZERO), and it’s actually the Buddhists who have to declare themselves – Buddhism is by no means a default assumption in China.

  142. MarkinLA says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    every Chinese will have a home,

    You mean like in parts of Xinjiang where people live in mud huts, with water cisterns on their roofs, and no toilets where they cook over coal fires and if they are lucky have propane? Houses like that? Yeah, we could all have house like that. They also have them in Bolivia. I wouldn’t want to live in either place.

  143. Joe Wong says:
    @MarkinLA

    There’s nothing more grim and depressing than the cocaine and marijuana ridden sunflower cities running along the western coast of California from San Francisco to Los Angeles.

    Couple of things-

    A) The bad areas of the LA are far more dangerous than anywhere in Asia including Xinjiang for whites. If you are a white who was born into a working middle class ethnic community like Rancho Dominguez and your parents did not sell their house in time, your life is in far greater danger than in Manila or Saigon.

    B) In LA you can make disgusting porn with 18 year old girls but if you try to pay a woman for sex you go to jail, but this LA’s culture.

    C) White people in the LA apparently have nothing better to do than watch Sarah Silverman or other unpleasant Jewish comediennes and imitate their filthy-mouthed as fashionable and cool. But Xinjiang people are honest and faithful Muslim, they go to Mosque to pray and follow Quran, they are clean and neat, filthy-mouth is strictly forbidden.

    D) In LA, white girls being dragged into Boy’s toilets and black beasts sticking their heads in toilets after a Negro teen had taken a shit in it. You never heard of that sort of thing in Xinjiang schools. Kids in LA are pummeled trying to get to Calculus class, and they are also introduced to meth or coke at age 14.

    E) In LA, worthless Hood Rat or Whigger are the thing, cool and in demand by the chicks.

    Xinjiang is not the right place for you to live in, and LA is the home for you.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @MarkinLA
  144. FarGo says:

    The British Chamber of Commerce in Mexico is a non for profit organization that promotes bilateral trade and investment between Mexico and the United Kingdom through a series of events, seminars, and synergies.

    http://www.britchamexico.com/en/

    25-Sep-2018 Prensa Latina

    Sin señales favorables diálogo Mercosur-UE sobre acuerdo comercial

    25-Sep-2018 América Economía

    Mercosur sostendrá reunión de diálogo con China para retomar mecanismo desactivado en

    https://www.bilaterals.org/?lang=en

  145. Yee says:

    MarkinLA,

    “…where people live in mud huts,”

    No. “Mud huts” don’t count. Although Chinese “mud hut” IS a house. Mud being made into brick-shape cubes to build the house, a layer of smooth mud pasted over the wall and whitewash it.

    Below is a typical housing picture in rural China – a mud hut in front(the small one originally was for storing fire-wood), a new house next to it. They don’t live in the mud hut but still use it for harvest storage or something, so they don’t bother with maintenance anymore, you can see the mud bricks exposed.

    http://s2.sinaimg.cn/bmiddle/67946ab4tdadf6c2445c1&690

    • Replies: @Weaver1
    , @MarkinLA
  146. @MarkinLA

    No, I mean houses in Xinjiang like this: Professor Patrik Meyer[1] tells how one negative vision was disseminated:
    What China’s CCTV billed as “ Renovation Combining Tradition and Modernity,” The Washington Post headlined as “ n ncient Culture, Bulldozed way,” The New York Times as “To Protect an Ancient City, China Moves to Raze It” and Time, “Tearing Down Old Kashgar: Another Blow to the Uighurs.”

    As a tourist, these headlines resonate with me, too. I wish to keep the Kashgar Old Town untouched and to be able to wander along its narrow, shaded alleys lined by adobe houses. However, if I were responsible for the living conditions and safety of its residents, as well as for the modernization of Kashgar writ large, then I would see Beijing’s transformation in a more positive light. Given the almost unprecedented access I was granted between 2010 and 2013 to conduct ethno-political research in Xinjiang and my robust background in civil engineering, I consider myself well positioned to provide a broader perspective on the issues raised by Western journalists when criticizing the KOT renewal project. simple survey of Western media outlets shows that harsh criticism of Beijing’s renewal of the KOT is built on four central arguments: demolition of Uyghur’s historical heritage, destruction of Uyghur’s social fabric, absence of Uyghurs’ voices in the project, and the sufficient seismic performance of existing houses. Moreover, Western journalists often argue that the goal of Beijing’s works in Kashgar is to weaken, or even erase, Uyghur identity, not to improve their living conditions.

    KOT’s historical value is indisputable, but it is not as significant as assumed by the Western critics. While some houses are centennial, with charismatic courtyards and beautifully decorated wooden frames, the majority are a poorly built patchwork of old and new mud and masonry walls. Hence, while the old town as whole has significant historical value, many of its houses are not historically valuable. Kashgar is one of the few Chinese cities where the old town is being partly preserved and remodeled following traditional standards. There is indeed some damage being caused to the Uyghurs’ historical heritage, but it is far less significant than the Western critics claim and it is intended to modernize Kashgar, not to “Demolish the Uyghur History” as argued by the Smithsonian. The second dominant argument, the tearing apart the Uyghur identity, is also happening, but again, not to the extent or for the purpose that it is being reported in the West. China’s fast modernization results in numerous communities being reshaped and displaced, including the one in the KOT. However, when asked for their view about Beijing’s renewal of the KOT, most of its dwellers welcome it. nd for good reasons. Their houses are often very small, poorly ventilated, dusty and dark, have no toilets, and are unpractical. It is those who do not live in the old town–Uyghurs, tourist, and Western journalists–who are most critical of the renewal project. Hence, I believe that the KOT project is causing Uyghur identity change, not its destruction, as argued by the West.

    As for the third argument, that the Uyghurs have no say in the project, it is again only partially correct. Their voice is indeed absent from the upper levels of the project’s decision making process. However, the majority of homeowners decide whether to stay or leave the KOT and how to proceed with the repair of their houses. They are offered three options, the first being to permanently move to a free, new apartment larger their old house. Second, they can opt to let the government tear down the old house and replace it with a new structure for free, which does not included finishing works such as flooring, windows, and decoration. During the time that this work is being done, the families can rent an apartment subsidized by the government at about $900 per year. In case the house is deemed to be structurally sound, the homeowners are given a subsidy (about US$90/m2) to upgrade the house themselves. Additional subsidies are also offered for those willing to finish the façade using traditional Uyghur style. While there might be some irregularities within this system, most homeowners affected by the renewal of the KOT have the choice to stay or leave, which the Western critics seems to ignore.

    Finally, a fourth dominant argument against Beijing’s KOT project is that the old town must be seismically safe because it has survived hundreds of years without being destroyed. gain, this is only partly true. There are a number of houses that were built properly over a hundred years ago, but the majority have been either poorly built or structurally modified in the last 30-50 years, making them prone to structural damage in case of a significant seismic event. Based on my expertise in seismic performance of adobe structures and my countless visits to the KOT, I can confirm that it is not feasible to retrofit most of its houses because of their deficient structural condition.


    [1] Western Journalistic Confirmation Bias: Reporting on Kashgar’s Old Town Renewal Project. Sept 19, 2016

    https://thediplomat.com/2016/09/western-journalistic-confirmation-bias-reporting-on-kashgars-old-town-renewal-project/

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @MarkinLA
  147. denk says:
    @MarkinLA

    This is more, much more than ‘bringing jobs back to murikka’.

    More than ‘opening China’s market to murikkan banks and insurance ‘

    More than nipping ‘Made in China 2050′ in its bud…

    Its a strategy to cut China down to size by breaking its economy , escalating provocation in SCS and raising hell in the TW stratis, i.e., challenging China’s red line.

    It has asshole Nawarro’s finger print all over it.

    It might turn ugly soon.

    • Replies: @myself
    , @MarkinLA
  148. DB Cooper says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Those adobe structures are extremely earthquake prone. The 2003 Bam earthquake in Iran is a good example which results in over 26000 deaths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Bam_earthquake

    The Chinese government did the right thing of relocating the residents of the Kashgar Old Town and building a new one. Of course as expected Western critics accuse the Chinese government of using the rebuilding as a pretext to dilute Uyghur culture and communities. But then I learnt about two years ago the Chinese government subsidize Uyghur households in the rural area (not the Kashgar Old Town) of almost 26000 yuan to rebuild their brick houses to be earthquake proof. Now how are the Western critics going to spin this one?

    The new Kashgar ‘old’ town looks pretty good, gentrified of course.

  149. @Joe Wong

    JOE…you are sort of parroting the observations of a white expat. I already wrote these things. You’re not even paraphrasing, you’re just reediting my statements. But I’ll equivocate-

    1) White expats who get ripped off by a hooker or robbed by a pimp are usually drunk and using poor judgement to begin with. Most Filipino crimes are cons or thefts. Occasionally there is a deadly home invasion but this is nothing compared to be some white trash “Oakie” whose parents were too lazy or drunk to move out of a Southern California neighborhood when it became a barrio. Even middle-class areas of Phoenix or Los Angeles are more dangerous than Manila.

    2) If you and I have a camera and money we can pay 18 year old girls to do anything we want. Interracial gang bang? Perfectly legal and no problem. Hire a 30 year old call girl? You’re breaking the law and going to jail. No wonder porn makes so much money. They have no commercial competition. In China, where prostitution is accepted as long as it is discreet, there are less young men addicted porn.

    3) I always wanted to be Sylvester Stallone. However I am unlikely to run around with a gun telling people I am Rambo.

    4) Asian immigrants actually get it the worst. One Asian girl wrote a book about it. They naively immigrate to the US thinking that the entire country is nothing but white people and nice suburbs even for the poor. Their parents open businesses in the worst parts of the city and they soon discover that their sons are forming street gangs of their own like the Korean-Americans youth.

    5) Ask any pregnant unmarried white girl under 21 who the father of her child is and she will identify Tyrone from the Hood or Marshall the “Afro-Saxon” as the father. He will be nineteen or twenty and sitting around smoking weed all day.

    6) There are no blacks or Mexicans living in China save for Nigerian businessmen and the Mexican Ambassador.

  150. @peterAUS

    Chinese ARE the 1% in Sydney and other Australian cities.

    I’m not sure if wealth distribution applies to whites being pushed out of Sydney or New Zealanders sleeping in their cars.

    You’ll be unable to afford your neighborhood soon enough, Peter.

    The Asians are becoming the market-dominant minority in the antipodes.

    Democracy, even the welfare capitalism safety-net sort that Australia has as oppose to the raw sort of the US, allows market-dominant minorities to do this. Communism contains it.

    Australia is not Communist.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  151. @MarkinLA

    I’d argue that the number of homeless in the US exceeds that of China.

    In the United States you can go from owning a business, paying a mortgage and being upper middle-class to living in the road with your family within a year.

    Look at the Great Recession.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  152. Weaver1 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    South America is a good rebuttal. I suppose they lack nationalism, roots and also have other problems which are impolite to acknowledge.

    They additionally seem dominated by US businesses and US government meddling. South Americans are tempted by drugs, which the US doesn’t want them to produce. And they’re plagued by socialism as a quasi religion, which isn’t to suggest “capitalism” is the alternative. Also, the US imposes “democracy”. It’s a mess. Costa Rica (which, yes, is Central) is said to be doing relatively well, due I think to an excellent past president. A strong leader like Singapore’s LKY is necessary, especially since to actually build up a South American polity might require attracting foreign investment while preventing a US coup. The US would probably like success, but it also wants control. And America’s government is inept and ideological. (Lennie from Of Mice and Men)

    Polities are complex. Religion has been important to every civilisation to date. It provides a source of values, an ability to define progress, and it explains why man is not a disease of the dust. Socrates was made to drink poison when he threatened the foundation of his society.

    If you’re Chinese, you might be prevented from reading arguments in favour of religion; but with biotech and AI on the horizon, I struggle to understand how any could uphold atheism. (I’m more fearful of biotech than AI, but AI gets popularly mentioned, so I include it.)

    -

    If focusing on the simple and obvious, then, yes, trust and virtue are tied to religion. Religion is not the only facet to consider. Reduced transience and increased community ties would also improve virtue. Communities can conflict, reducing trust and creating division, but they can also provide for social needs. A fluid (transient) managerial machine could become dissociated within: The elites ruling over could lose empathy with/understanding of those they rule, and the rest of the population could lose attachment as well.

    My original argument is just that political science is more complicated. The IQ reductionists oversimplify complicated problems. This is why I go off topic in the second-to-last paragraph, to exemplify the complexity.

  153. Weaver1 says:
    @DB Cooper

    Simply, no. A healthy polity is religious; every past civilisation has been religious. Common argument: “The root of ‘culture’ is ‘cult’, and children are raised by culture as crops are raised by agriculture.”

    I don’t want to repeat the same counterarguments, but biotech and AI are on the horizon. And only a religion can provide values, define progress. Progress, and all ability to define values, falls to relativity otherwise.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  154. Weaver1 says:
    @Anonymous

    Religion is not the only variable, and it has a synergistic effect when established within a complete system. Every past civilisation has been religious. It provides value where value doesn’t otherwise exist. It defines progress, where progress would otherwise fall to relativity. *In an overpopulated, transient, atomised world approaching biotech and AI, man needs religion now more than ever.*

    The root of culture is “cult”; children are raised by culture as crops are raised by agriculture. It’s nonsense to say we can do without religion, because even you hold certain values which are properly labeled religious. A bit of cognitive dissonance might be requisite for a healthy psyche, but you undoubtably hold values. And no, your DNA does not compel you to be some benevolent person as is so popular to argue today. You could be conditioned by society to hold certain values, but only religion could provide a logical source for those values.

  155. Weaver1 says:
    @Yee

    Cob is a very nice medium for housing. It’s good to have ties to traditional ways, no need to rush into modernity. Sewage, water, and electricity are pleasant, however. I would love to have a cob house, Irish style.

  156. myself says:
    @denk

    Its a strategy to cut China down to size by breaking its economy , escalating provocation in SCS and raising hell in the TW stratis, i.e., challenging China’s red line.

    Yes, it is. And the Chinese absolutely know it.

    I don’t think the whole “economic war against China” was thought through. It won’t turn out like the White House hopes.

    • Replies: @denk
  157. Joe Wong says:

    The White hates China modernize Tibet, Uyghur, Xinjiang, and other minorities, because they no longer can satisfy their superiority complex by looking at the primitive Tibetan, Uyghur, and other minorities like zoo animals.

  158. Joe Wong says:
    @Weaver1

    Religions, particularly the Christianity and Islam, are regressive and violent, both of them bring to humanity not enlightenment but disasters, chaos, misery, destruction, suffering, war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace on the moral high ground; they are ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil cult inquisitors. History bears witness of their sins and crimes.

    Before Columbus the destruction of Christians and Muslims limited themselves in the rotten old continent of Europe and Middle East, but since then that dark plague has spread across the globe and leave no pristine land untouched.

    The end of the earth will be caused by the Christians’ intolerance of other ideals, crusades and forced conversion.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Weaver1
  159. Joe Wong says:
    @map

    for 800 years while the Europeans and Americans were inventing the entire modern world.

    USA did not exist 800 years ago, before WWII American was the major offender of stealing European technologies and environment pollution.

    Before 16th century, Europe was a superstitious medieval serfdom land. European started to take off in technology only in 18th century after they have stolen major inventions from Chinese and Middle Easterners.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  160. denk says:
    @myself

    Turns out that Pete Nawarro is the butt buddy of Gordon China collapsing Chang, who have made three predictions on ‘China collapsing’ in the past two decades .

    With Nawarro having potus’s ear, perhaps Chang will be making another prediction soon, ?

    hhhhh

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  161. MarkinLA says:
    @denk

    If China is that dependent on the US for it’s economy, then that is their problem to fix. Our economy is our problem and our first priority. Why am I supposed to care about China?

    • Replies: @denk
  162. MarkinLA says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Yeah, if you count as having a home, living in a hut. The areas outside the large cities where there is no industry are filled with villages that are pretty bleak. While that was in 2006, I doubt much progress has been made since they are too far away from anything to have a completely first world infrastructure.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  163. MarkinLA says:
    @Joe Wong

    And what has that got to do with people in Xinjiang living in mud brick huts?

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Joe Wong
  164. MarkinLA says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    There were plenty of dirt poor villages on the road from Urumqi to Kashgar that only had electricity at most. I doubt much of anything has changed in the last 12 years there. There are rich people everywhere and they are the minority. There is no way 1.4 billion people are going to live in a first world existence in any country on earth.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  165. MarkinLA says:
    @Yee

    You have one picture.

    Admittedly, it was 12 years ago but I was on a motorcycle tour from Urumqi to Kashgar and passed through plenty of dirt poor towns where donkey carts and mud huts were very common. Those areas were so remote and poor that I doubt much as changed for the majority of people living there. Of course there will be some improvement but to assume everybody will live like in the first world is ridiculous – there aren’t enough resources to maintain it.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  166. @Joe Wong

    Right and a primitive tribe from Siberia called Manchus came down and took over your country and proclaimed themselves your ruling elite.

    Besides, you did not do anything with the compass or gun. You may have invented them but the Europeans modernized them.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    , @myself
  167. @MarkinLA

    Read the news about the homeless whites killed by the illegal Salvadoran serial killer.

    As more and more whites end up on the road they’ll be preyed upon by blacks and Hispanics who rape homeless middle-aged women on the road.

    The only protection whites formerly had was a house to hide in.

  168. @MarkinLA

    He’s parroting me. He’s demonstrating that Chinese males can only imitate whites to a great degree by rewriting my posts.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  169. denk says:
    @MarkinLA

    You dont get my point.

    YOu’r fine with the cabal in Washington
    trying to destroy China’s economy , even provoke ww3 at China’s doorstep ……just so you can preserve your pax murikka ?

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  170. @MarkinLA

    When was the last time man humans walked on the moon? Hell, the US is still years away from capability for heavy-lift to low Earth orbit. We could easily regress 100 years, because most folks are completely oblivious to growing their own crops or foraging in the wild, much less machining tools and parts. It’s why the scaremongers tell us an EMP event will kill hundreds of millions of Americans (probably not, unless the country folk let the city folk starve, which they should, and fail to shoot them down if they venture out of the cities, which they surely should do).

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  171. MarkinLA says:
    @denk

    I get your point, continue to let China crap all over us in order to avoid some catastrophe that is in your head. If China’s economy collapses why should I care? Their government should be doing something to prevent it not ours. If they try to start a war to get out of it, that is their problem and they should be reduced to glass.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Joe Wong
  172. MarkinLA says:
    @The Alarmist

    Walk on the moon? Really? The space shuttle was light years ahead of the Apollo program in terms of space technology. We could go to the moon next year if we wanted to. There just isn’t any reason.

    The computers aren’t going away. CNC machines aren’t going away. Plenty of people have gardens, they just grow flowers instead of carrots. This is as bad a saying Trump is the end of America.

  173. denk says:
    @MarkinLA

    . If they try to start a war to get out of it, that is their problem and they should be reduced to glass.

    sheesh,

    When was the last time China pick a fight a your doorstep ?

    reduced to glass

    a neocon eh ?

  174. Someone says:

    Lol. The biggest beneficiaries of outsourcing to China have been…. the 1% of former US industrial class.

    People like MARKinLA and other historically and economically impaired hyper patriots fall for the latest agit prop. Unless you seal off imports from EVERY foreign nation, industry won’t come back to America, period. And well, why would anyone choose to actually pay for capital expenditures when they can just do stock buy backs or flip real estate?

    The US has artificially inflated costs for education, health care and housing. It also has inefficient and outmoded transportation. With the exception of airplanes, the only competitive American exports are subsidized agriculture, and monopoly protected software/pharmaceuticals, and of course, BS armaments.

    All these Trump aficionados fail to see what he is doing with the US ruling class of rent seeking FIRE industry, healthcare, education, assorted monopolists, etc.–Nothing. You could have a factory pumping out actual consumer goods, but even $25/hour really isn’t enough to cover the minimum cost of living.

    • Replies: @hydro
    , @MarkinLA
  175. Someone says:

    Lol Jeff.

    Not only are you a flaming racist who left cholo and hoodrat infested America, you also CHOSE to breed with some hated ethnicity, AND you CHOSE to live in the Philippines, the tropical Detroit of Asia. You think a Filipino bullet is less lethal than a domestic American one?

    You (and the morons like you) are blissfully unaware of actual history and political economy. Detroit did not crater because of its ethnic makeup. It went to hell because the Big 3 used their copious cash flow to buy back stocks/pay dividends/compensate their stockholders and executives.

    Thus I get a kick out of you idolizing Australia. Guess what? Their 2 domestic carmakers, Holden and Ford (which are subsidiaries of US corporations) did the same thing, and neglected their actual product. And they are now gone too. Their former factory sites in Geelong and Adelaide aren’t as run down as Detroit or St. Louis. You’d attribute this to their whiteness. It’s actually due to Australia still having some social welfare. Plus their decline has only just started.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  176. hydro says:
    @Someone

    Can’t agree with you more. All this whining about China cheating and stealing is purely a smoke screen to escape blame and further spoon feed MSM propaganda to opiate addicted American masses (which is also China’s fault and not big pharma). For decades, since Reagan in 1980, succeeding administrations have aided and abetted the deregulation and enrichment of Wall St. big business. It is the unfetter GREED of corporate capitalism that is responsible for the US exploding debt and empty factories. The trade inbalance with China profits American corporations HUUGLY, the ordinary bloke…well not so much.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  177. Manila is not as dangerous as Detroit or any other urban center in the United States. Except for drug dealers. Nor is Manila as dangerous as most Haiti or Venezuela, because these countries are black and Red Indian (There is no point in calling them Hispanics, they’re a bunch of Red Indian scalper primitives).

    I could not afford a white woman nor could I be bothered to meet their middle-class expectations and I had to have some sort of sex life. Besides, there is no divorce-rape in Asia.

    Detroit is a post-industrial ghost town. It would resemble the Old West ghost towns except that blacks lack the money or initiative to leave and in the old Gold Rush towns the inhabitants were white so they all left. That is the boom-bust of raw capitalism.

    I would attribute the lower crime rate of any other developed country in the G-8 to be a result of having no blacks or Mestizos.

    However, I agree with social welfare. It is the reason Australia does not have loads of homeless people. They also have a higher minimum wage.

    Do I idolize Australia? No? It has is its problems. Some were inevitable, like the aboriginals. And I would not walk around someplace like Adelaide at night in the poorest areas where local white yahoos might be drinking and feeling mean.

    To be honest, I don’t know why you focus on my racism. There are far more racist people on this site than myself.

    • Replies: @Someone
  178. @hydro

    Opiate addicted masses…

    Those Triad heroin czars in the middle of Eastern Kentucky.

    The good news is that Oxy will probably go the way of ludes.

    • Replies: @Someone
  179. Someone says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Jeffy boy, I focus on you because you’re glaringly hypocritical and stupid. At least the other racists dress it up with pseudo science. You bag on Mexicans and blacks and you have the temerity to throw fellow downtrodden whites under the bus. And you’re one of them. No idea why you don’t admit it. Thus your racism is overtly self-contradicting. You haven’t been to those downtrodden all-white former mill towns in Washington and Oregon that are melanin-challenged Detroit.

    Just what time is it in Manila? How the hell are you here 24/7? Are you on ice? Plenty of that in your locale, and it could give you the stamina to spew your idiocy. And LOL at comparing Manila to Detroit or Haiti or Venezuela. It isn’t the dumbest kid on the short bus. It’s still dangerous compared to most everywhere else. Cept you can’t be bothered with going somewhere better (even though you harp on personal safety and those sinister minorities.)

    And you can’t even get laid in the States. Complaints about overpriced healthcare, education, and real estate make sense; complaints about involuntary celibacy is the domain of LOSERS.
    Frankly I am surprised you are still alive.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  180. Someone says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Jeff really needs to look at:

    Air America’s role in the first heroin epidemic
    Gary Webb’s investigation into the CIA/Contras and Crack cocaine
    Purdue Pharma’s marketing of synthetic opiates.

    Unfortunately he’s into projecting his ire downwards toward Hispanics, blacks and poor whites. As if he isn’t seen as a deplorable too.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  181. MarkinLA says:
    @Someone

    Unless you seal off imports from EVERY foreign nation, industry won’t come back to America, period.

    You forgot the Fed in your nonsense. Our domestic content laws forced automakers to return some of our jobs back to the US. Tariffs are not the whole answer but we need to start and actually do something. Listening to morons in university economics departments and business schools hasn’t worked.

    but even $25/hour really isn’t enough to cover the minimum cost of living.

    But it is a lot better than 10 dollars an hour.

    • Replies: @Someone
  182. Joe Wong says:
    @MarkinLA

    It simply illustrates there is a lot worse situation in LA than some mud brick huts in Xinjiang. Not minding your own people’s suffering, but smearing China with fake news is simply compassionless to your courtry fellow.

  183. DB Cooper says:
    @Joe Wong

    Well said.

    Question : What is the difference between Christianity and Islam? Answer : Five hundred years.

  184. peterAUS says:
    @MarkinLA

    …There will simply be a problem of housing large numbers of unproductive people who have to be fed, clothed and cleaned. Society will make due. They may have to be warehoused like cattle but something will be done….

    Interestingly put.

    Defining “unproductive people” could be…..challenging.

    Then, more importantly, that “something” could, perhaps, be something those unproductive don’t much like. Or not at all. Enough to make them unhappy, even angry.
    Anger is a peculiar emotion.
    Sometimes leads to violence. Large scale even.

    There could be blood,then,I think.

    Whose blood, and how much of it, could be an interesting question, too.

  185. Joe Wong says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Manchu did not come from Siberia, is it the latest revisionist history manufactured by the NED?

    Without Chinese compass and gun to give the Europeans a head start, the Europeans are most likely still stuck in their miserable poverty ridden religion suppression medieval serfdom era.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  186. @MarkinLA

    China launched the “West Development Strategy” in January 2000 to help underdeveloped western regions catch up with the more prosperous eastern regions. In the last 10 years, the central government had provided more than 3.5 trillion yuan to support development of the western regions. GDP of the regions from 2000 to 2008 jumped from 1.66 trillion yuan to 5.82 trillion yuan, at an average annual growth rate of 11.7 percent.

    Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region saw more than 105 million tourists in the first eight months of this year, up 40.93 percent year-on-year, according to regional statistics.

    Tourists have spent more than 171 billion yuan (around 25.1 billion US dollars) in the region during the period, up 43.18 percent from last year.

    Although 1.72 million people have been lifted out of poverty from 2014 to 2017, there are still 1.63 million people living in extreme poverty in southern Xinjiang, he said. “We have the confidence and the methods to lift the remaining impoverished households out of poverty by 2020,” said Niu Xuexing, Party chief of Hotan, during the 19th National Congress of the Communist Party of China.

    Authorities in Northwest China’s Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region will make 15 years of education basically universal by 2020.

    According to a development plan released by the region’s education department, more than 98 percent of children will have access to three years of free preschool education.

    Ninety-five percent of children are expected to finish the compulsory nine years of primary and junior high school and 90 percent will attend senior high school, it said.

    The region also plans to speed up development of vocational and higher education to enroll 40 percent of students in universities.

    By 2020, all students attending kindergartens, primary and junior schools will have bilingual education, and students from ethnic minority groups will have a basic command of standard spoken and written Chinese.

    Additionally, people entering the labor market in the region will have received 13 years of education on average, it said.

  187. Joe Wong says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    It is called journalism, Western style.

  188. peterAUS says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    You got me. I don’t read your posts/comments but made an exception this time. We do talk about things close to home.

    So…..I had to read this a couple of times and, what to say……it’s even more crazy than the author statement about the bright future of Chinese proles in close future.

    I mean….it’s so…. wrong……. it stunned me for a couple of seconds.

    I am impressed. Congratulations. Whenever I think I can’t be surprised anymore on Internet (and I’ve been on it since its inception) somebody like you turns up and….bump.

    And you apparently thought that out. Put all that in paragraphs even.
    And each and every paragraph is just………yes….”impressive”…… comes to mind.

    Over and out.

    • Replies: @Someone
    , @Jeff Stryker
  189. Someone says:
    @MarkinLA

    Thing is, $25/hour also results in higher prices for the end consumer. Same thing with tariffs. From what I observe, the people who are already financially pressed can’t endure much more.

    And it still isn’t enough to actually live. Ditto with non out-sourced jobs in the service sector. Make Walmart and Amazon raise wages and provide benefits. Your hero the Donald and sewer rats like Bannon and Navarro don’t give a rat’s @ss about the plight of the American lower 99%. If they did, they would address the parasitic role of the FIRE, healthcare, education and other oligarchic entities who wield disproportionate financial power and who control the politicians, media, and academia.

    Hell, start by increasing wages and unionization in the RIGHT TO WORK *LOL* states. Car companies initially fled those pesky union wages and labor standards of the Midwest and Northeast and headed to Alabama.

    Then introduce the single payer healthcare, make higher education affordable like other countries, and tax capital gains/build affordable public housing. But your idol Donald and his D-tier oligarch cronies won’t do that. So it’s off to blame irrelevant scapegoats.

    • Replies: @Weaver1
  190. Joe Wong says:
    @denk

    Don’t you know Gordon Chang got his info about China collpasing from Peter Navarro through his wife on a pillow talk channel ?

    • Replies: @denk
  191. Someone says:

    MARKinLA, you do realize the biggest drain on expenses isn’t imported consumer goods, it’s student loan debt, healthcare insurance, housing? Basically all the costs that have been artificially inflated and the stuff the Donald, and the traditional, outwardly respectable politicians and pundits all conveniently choose to ignore.

    Unless these costs are brought down, the lower 99% will always live precariously, $25/hr wages or not. Then there is the nefarious role of stock-value maximization and regressive taxes. Why was GM plied with money, yet still invest precious little in their end product, and end up producing crappy cars that can only be sold with big incentives?

  192. Joe Wong says:
    @MarkinLA

    LA is in the top 10 hit list of Russian and Chinese nuclear bomb retailation if the American misbehave, and both Russian and Chinese nuclear bomb technology is 20 years ahead of the American in case you don’t know.

    • Replies: @Someone
  193. Weaver1 says:
    @Joe Wong

    You’re not even attempting to understand my arguments. What does “enlightenment” and “regressive” even mean? You don’t understand what is meant by, “progress falls to relativity in the absence of religion”.

    I can’t break through your cognitive dissonance and incuriosity.

    If the world “ends”, it’ll be by the hand of some dissociated, rational atheist who asks, “Why not?”

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  194. Someone says:
    @peterAUS

    I just knew someone would agree with Jeff, the loudest, dumbest know-nothing around. On this site, that is no mean feat.

    If Jeff is ONLY fixated on phenotype and ignores actual political economy, that is already a big red flag.

    Sure there are plenty of rich Chinese in Chatswood and Mosman. But the actual control of the Australian economy lies in the ownership of its banks, monopoly utilities, and natural resources. And so far, their ownership is still firmly in the grip of a few WASP elites. Mind you, their nationality is disproportionately American and the profits and capital gains are silently squirreled away in offshore tax havens, or in the case of mining entities, artificially lowered due to the depletion allowance.

    The ethnicity of the Australian 1% shouldn’t matter. You may find solace because you share the same phenotype as them. But based on their actions, they sure as hell have little empathy for you. You cite some ethnic homeowner in overpriced Mosman as your overlord, yet you are blissfully unaware of BHPBilliton, ANZ, et al.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Jeff Stryker
  195. Weaver1 says:
    @Someone

    Most of what you propose does not help the bottom 99%.

    Employers want to hire foreign workers, because they work for less. So, they import them or outsource to hire them. Trade tariffs and immigration/guest worker reduction reduce this supply, thus improving wages more than the increase in costs.

    Education and healthcare would become even more inefficient under your proposals. What oligarchs want is a helpless, dependent, vulnerable working class that cannot pose a threat. Your reforms, unbeknownst to you apparently, bring about such servitude.

    The ideal is for workers to own and earn more, for small businesses to have a chance to compete, and to generally decentralise wealth and power without direct government redistribution as you propose.

    What you want is a small managerial elite that crushes the rest of the population, tossing down crumbs and declaring society to be a utopia. Decentralised wealth and power would be better.

    • Replies: @Someone
  196. Someone says:
    @Joe Wong

    LOL. No one is dropping a nuke on anyone capable of actual retaliation. China between the Sino-Soviet split and its development of nukes couldn’t
    retaliate against the US, and still nothing happened.

    These guys don’t realize Trump isn’t any different from all these other slime ball billionaire/redneck sellout politicians. They don’t want to risk an actual damaging war, they just want to get rich, they want their cronies to get rich, and they want to keep the game going some more.

  197. Someone says:
    @Weaver1

    This is the site that keeps on giving. Weaver, aren’t you the one who said the lack of Jesus was a sin? I should just stop here, but your last post is hilariously bad.

    So let’s assume America shuts itself off from China, but also Canada, Mexico, Japan, Korea and Germany. Basically all these places that produce products more cheaply and efficiently. Well, these countries could very well retaliate on American exports of products, but also of services, and they could just stop buying American weapons.

    All while you STILL have the yoke of inflated living costs due to education, healthcare and housing.

    Weaver, just how does government subsidized/free healthcare, education and housing become more inefficient and more expensive? You ever experience public healthcare elsewhere and contrast this to the American system? You have a gander at the stock dividends and executive compensation of American banks and pharmaceuticals? Or are you basing this off a twisted reading of Hayek, who turned out to be a socialized medicine leech?

    Just boggled at your utter lack of knowledge. Go read the Bible and pray. At least you’ll console yourself.

    • Replies: @Weaver1
    , @MarkinLA
  198. Anon[215] • Disclaimer says:

    An undervalued currency?Our trade deficits are caused not by an undervalued yuan but by a seriously overvalued dollar, caused primarily by excessive foreign demand for dollars and dollar-based assets.

    “Quantitative Tightening” (QT) and the Coming Bubble Bust: Will the “Federal Reserve” Engineer the Next Financial Crash to Topple Donald Trump?

    Excerpt

    ”What is rarely mentioned in the mainstream media is the relation of those events to the deliberate withdrawal of dollars from the global financial system by the “creator” of dollars, the US Federal Reserve. Now that process threatens to detonate a dramatic fall in not only US stocks but also in high-risk junk bonds, in US real estate debt, auto debt, credit card debt. The Trump hopes for continued economic success into the 2020 elections or even into the November mid-term elections may be smashed by the will of the Fed.”

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/quantitative-tightening-qt-and-the-coming-bubble-bust-will-the-federal-reserve-engineer-the-next-financial-crash-to-topple-donald-trump/5655206

  199. peterAUS says:
    @Someone

    Ahm..khm…….are you sure you got your facts straight?
    Just curious.

    I mean, can’t recollect where I wrote anything re:

    You cite some ethnic homeowner in overpriced Mosman as your overlord, yet you are blissfully unaware of BHPBilliton, ANZ, et al.

    Could you please point me to that?

    And, if….IF….I read this right:

    I just knew someone would agree with Jeff, the loudest, dumbest know-nothing around. On this site, that is no mean feat.

    do you think I am that guy?
    If yes……..true, “Jeff” got me, but your perception and/or social intelligence is ….can’t find word…”stunning”!?

    You MUST tell me is that “yes” or “no”. I just have to know.
    Just one simple “yes” or “no”.
    Please.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Someone
  200. peterAUS says:
    @peterAUS

    Just to clarify my, sort of, pleading, question.

    Around 80 % of comments on this site (bless the owner and mods) are just noise.
    Around 15 % are O.K. to read.

    Now…there is around 5 % comments that truly add value here and are just great learning experience.

    Those could be divided into two groups.
    One is about the, say, world around us. Well, including methaphisical issues and such. Say….the world outside of us….people.

    Then…there are posts that reveal the truth about us. People.

    So, that post of yours, if answer is “yes”, belongs to that group.

    A great learning experience about people. True, sort of confirmation, but, still, very…very valuable. Well, for me.

    Hope it makes sense. If doesn’t, good too.

  201. Yee says:

    MarkinLA,

    “Of course there will be some improvement but to assume everybody will live like in the first world is ridiculous – there aren’t enough resources to maintain it.”

    Well, you have upgraded the goal for Chinese government, they didn’t say “first world standards”, they said we will have house, healthcare, retirement, plenty of food, ect.

    Building houses in remote areas isn’t much of challenge at all, if the government have a mind to do so.

    I remember reading a story about a tribe of Nepalis wandering for 200 years in Tibet, finally granted Chinese citizenships in 2003. The whole tribe (a few hundreds of them) all qualified for poverty welfare, so the government built the whole village for them, including everything from roads, electricity down to mobile phone and satellite TV service, in less than 3 years.

    They were also entitled to economic help like getting green-houses to grow vegetables and some of them get jobs as forest ranger. The tribe is called Da-Man or something, settle near the China-Nepal border.

    Getting labelled as “poverty” has so many goodies that a county even put a celebrating note on a billboard… Shameless, Chinese Netizens all agree.

    http://img.sogoucdn.com/net/a/01/link?appid=100520033&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ce.cn%2Fce%2Fxwzx%2Fgnsz%2Fgdxw%2F201201%2F31%2FW020120131352860935306.jpg&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ce.cn%2Fxwzx%2Fgnsz%2Fgdxw%2F201201%2F31%2Ft20120131_23030247.shtml

  202. @MarkinLA

    Of course there will be some improvement but to assume everybody will live like in the first world is ridiculous – there aren’t enough resources to maintain it.

    That’s making some assumptions about the future which are quite unfounded, both on rural/urban population composition as well as resource generation. And it quite underestimates the rate of change, which surprised me quite a bit in even only the eight years of difference between my visits.

    But you’ll see, I suppose.

  203. @peterAUS

    Chinese are already pricing “white Australians” out of Sydney.

    That sounds crazy to me to, but Australia is a part of Asia.

    I think it is because white Australians are so laid-back and egalitarian-minded like yourself.

    The US has always had a rawer brush of capitalism and if the Jews currently run it they will side with other whites against a Chinese market dominant minority.

    Your obsession with the United States is a typical of “country cousin” colonies but it is not the US that will really be turning Sydney into a colony where whites are economically purged by wealthy Chinese.

    However, when this happens, you will still be obsessing over the United States.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  204. Someone says:
    @peterAUS

    Peter, it would help if you actually typed in complete sentences.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/insights/081516/top-6-shareholders-bhp-billiton-bhp-bac.asp

    https://www.creditcardcompare.com.au/pages/blog/big-four-ownership/

    These were the first links that popped up for ownership of the Australian Big 4 banks and BHP Billiton. Shouting about a few Chinese homeowners is just a distraction from the fact that the wealthiest, most predatory and profitable Australian corporations are controlled by the oligarchs from elsewhere.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  205. @Joe Wong

    That’s no doubt the reason for they established the silk route with China when your country was unable to find Europe on a map-even though you stumbled upon the lodestone that Europeans would develop into a compass.

    And European serfs were never ordered to kill themselves at the behest of their Emperor or had their country run by one of his court prostitutes when he died like China did at one point.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  206. peterAUS says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Well, read this one too. It’s good. Amusing, sort of, contribution to that 5 % about people here I posted about above.

    May I ask you a question, please?

    You have real life friends? You debate this …ahm…topics of yours with them in real? You know, face to face.
    Who are they (say, race/ethnic type, working/middle/upper class, education level) ?
    How does it look like? Those debates I mean.

    Say: A couple of Whites, middle class, white collar processionals, Uni educated. we talk for hours, exchange ideas, thoughts….
    Say, I talk until I complete my point, then my mate does the same……. etc?
    Or not?

    Just curious.

  207. @Someone

    Blacks have been claiming that the CIA invented crack in order to keep blacks from constantly rioting since 1985 or so when Jamaicans first invented crack cocaine.

    But China is not in the heroin importation game any longer, which was the statement I was responding to.

    Hispanics have completely taken over the illegal drug rackets from the Sicilians and Chinese with their “Pizza connections” and “Golden Triangles”

    That’s simply logistics. Mexico is closer.

  208. peterAUS says:
    @Someone

    Thank you for coming back to me.
    I seem to have missed, somehow, somewhere in your comment, that “yes” or “no”.

    Could you, please, post another comment/reply to me?
    Use this one for your convenience.

    Just one word.
    “Yes” or “No” (excluding quotes, of course).

    Much appreciated.

    If not, well, I’ll understand. All good.

  209. denk says:
    @Joe Wong

    Dont play play with Pete Nawarro,
    this guy make Cheney looks like a nanny///

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/peter-navarro-trump-trade-china-214772

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  210. @Someone

    The real downtrodden whites cannot live overseas. If they could live where they chose to than black and Hispanic crime would not be such an issue for them.

    You’ll walk through a dying mill town in daytime and not be imperiled.

    If Manila were as dangerous as Los Angeles or Detroit then white retirees would not live there, just as few of them live in Detroit or Baltimore or the barrio.

    Most working middle-class Americans have no idea how difficult it is to immigrate to a “better” country. The last huge out-migration of Americans was air traffic controllers to Australia at a time when that country had a shortage. Good luck trying to immigrate to Switzerland.

    I know, I tried. Good luck trying to meet the point system. I doubt you’ll make it. So whites who can somehow get by overseas have to settle for somewhere there are not blacks, whigger or Cholos. And anywhere is better than nowhere.

    As for being a LOSER, it is more a matter of not being BOTHERED. As a young man who moved overseas I realized I could not be BOTHERED with the things that consume the lives of most down-trodden whites.

    Life is too short to be bothered with trying to figure out how to exist in a plutocracy where the 99% are squirming masses outside the castle walls whom the 1% could care less about. Since it makes zero difference to the oligarchs how bad things get for white proles, those that can leave might as well.

  211. @peterAUS

    My uncle got a job with Argyle mining and moved to Perth simply to get my cousins out of Detroit in 1981.

    Around the same time something like 50% of Atlanta’s air traffic controllers moved to Australia when a sudden shortage in local air traffic controllers led the Australia government to put them on a fast-track to citizenship at a time when Atlanta was collapsing in crime and race riots.

    What is my point?

    Australia in general does not want an entrenched underclass of white American proles but at times when working middle-class Americans could immigrate they did so simply for safer living conditions than the United States. Point blank.

    Since Australians know this already you are going to ask me what my point is.

    My point is that it is much easier for wealthy Chinese to create a plutocracy of indifferent alien oligarchs in Australia than the US.

    Your society was always a fundamentally egalitarian middle-class one in part due to the class/labor structure of the UK which many average whites emigrated to get away from.

    So you are sitting ducks for the sort of raw capitalist expansion of Chinese into Australia. You’re not prepared for it.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  212. @Yee

    No this “trade war” is about America’s unsustainable trade deficit. China, being an economically pragmatic country, engages in moderate protectionism for the benefit of Chinese industry. The US, as a country driven by romantic ideologues, engages in unsustainable free trade policies for the benefit of upper middle class urbanites.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  213. Weaver1 says:
    @Someone

    I don’t know that I’m whom you’re thinking of.

    Why would the US need to “shut itself off” from other polities? The ideal of protectionist trade is to trade where mutually beneficial. The EU, China, Japan, SK, India, and nearly all other of our trading partners use trade protections in the form of border adjusted VAT.

    Why shouldn’t the US use protectionist trade, which has built so many past societies, including the US? (The first tax passed in the US was a trade tariff.) Why must the US subsidise the rest of the world’s development? You have no understanding of trade.

    -

    Cost of living is inflated in the US in the sectors you mention, and that’s primarily because of government intervention and also due to the Federal Reserve. You’re repeating standard lines from the television, totally misunderstanding what I’m arguing.

    I’m no fan of Hayek. Try Belloc; I’m a distributist.

  214. peterAUS says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Got it.

    Not one.

    Don’t know what to tell you. Well, if all this helps, why not?
    Still, maybe some, say, more….structured….help would be better.

    Anyway.
    Free will and such.
    Good luck.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  215. @peterAUS

    SUGGESTION FOR PETER

    Go up to any retired American air traffic controller who moved his family from Atlanta to Perth or Sydney in 1981 when your government imported something like 30,000 Air Traffic Controllers and ask him why he hauled ass to Australia when a fast-track to immigration was on the table at a time when Atlanta was going down the tubes in race riots and crimes.

    …He’ll answer the question for you.

    “Debate this topic”

    I once knew a middle-aged American white male who was living in a beach hut in Cebu, Philippines who bummed cigarettes off me because he could not afford them. I asked him why he was living as badly as Filipino-a poor one-in the Philippines. Unemployed welder, 54 yrs.

    His wife had kept their condo in a divorce and he explained that on $200 a month in the US he would be homeless and not only was Connecticut freezing cold in the winters but that homeless in his local park would put him in mortal danger at night.

    He had stayed in a homeless shelter one night and a large nude drunk man had walked across the barracks to his cot and stood over him masturbating on his head as he lay there.

    At this point he sold his Harley and used the money to fly to the Philippines where he could rent a wooden hut and buy rice while he fished to feed himself.

    I was friendly too with an ex-military black postal worker from Flint and if you asked most retired working poor American males they would tell you it is simply because it is safer (Especially for black retired working-class men) in the Philippines on their meager pension.

    Australians in Philippines are usually there as sex tourists or on the run from child support (There are a great many of these) or simply businessmen. The conditions that would drive a white US working class man from the US to live cheaply in the Philippines are not present.

    “Debating the topic”

    Supposing I were to go to Darwin and debate domestic assault with Joe the aboriginal or ask him why he spends his money on booze. Provided he did not immediately assault me, I doubt he would string together any kind of response.

    So who to debate such a topic with?

    “Friends”

    Expats in vary from country to country. The American ones will generally be middle-class simply because they are wealthy and educated enough to leave the United States. In Dubai they will be families and in Southeast Asia they will be males.

    “Ethnic types”

    You would not meet a true US white prole living overseas like poorer Australian ones in Southeast Asia.

    And even a real “bogan” would be more or less as educated and affluent as your average US middle-class white. Bogans can afford to drink in hotel bars and are not as utterly deprived as white proles or at risk. Australia’s higher wages might cause a few inflation problems but a rising tide lifts all boats to some extent

  216. @Anonymous

    Yes, Trump should introduce a general tariff on imports from all countries. Hopefully by breaching the taboo of protectionism, Trumps crude measures will get the ball rolling on a more systematic form of protectionism. And by the way, a general tariff would help reduce housing costs for the working class. If more marginally competitive US companies stayed in the US, and more foreign manufacturing firms set up US factories, there would be more jobs in small provincial cities. Such cities are much more affordable to live in that FIRE cities like New York and would thus offer more affordable housing options for working class Americans.

  217. @Someone

    SOMEONE

    The CIA knew that a certain minority would be foolish enough to smoke crack cocaine if Nancy was splitting that gain with Ronnie in the White House.

    Probably scientists did studies on the human genome that determined that cocaine was to the inner-city what booze was to an Indian reservation-something in their DNA got them instantly and hopeless hooked and they would smoke it until it killed them like Whitney Houston.

  218. @unpc downunder

    Its actually the poor white prole who buys stuff made in China for cut-rates at some Wal-Mart.

    Trade protection will hit them worst.

    Similarly, China will go after Trump’s voter base who exports agriculture products to China.

  219. @Someone

    POLITICAL ECONOMY AND PHENOTYPE

    I’d say Trump’s political economy revolves around the stone-age Red Indian scalpers coming across the border.

    Yesterday an Indian from Salvador who’d been deported 6 times turned out to be a serial killer who was wandering around “robbing” homeless whites (For their loose cigarettes and returnable bottles apparently) after apparently doing in his own relatives in down in Texas.

    Needless to say this was why Trump wanted to enforce border security.

  220. @Yee

    Chinese invest in Australia because it makes sense and choose to live there because for the relatively wealthy Chinese it is nice regulation-free low-crime pleasant country to live with reasonably good investment opportunities.

    By now, most of the Chinese middle-class including you have heard of the horrors of being a Chinese immigrant in the United States who open a laundromat or small business and what their kids go through in these areas with blacks and Mexicans-the racism, sexual harassment (Sometimes of Chinese males by black or Mexican females), crime.

    Chinese business people know that Australia is still a white country. This is not to say that whites are angels but in terms of statistics you are better off moving to Sydney than San Francisco or Los Angeles.

    So why wouldn’t they invest in Australia.

    We both know some white Australians resent a wealthy alien over-class with no interest in integrating into their society simply showing up and pricing them out of their own beds.

    But it makes sense on the part of the Chinese emigrant.

    • Replies: @Anon
  221. @peterAUS

    You’ve got it wrong, Peter.

    I live overseas so I am NOT around millions of people with the same complaints.

    But most Western males abroad have the same mentality and if I hit any expat bar in Asia I’d here the same stuff…divorce rape, lousy pension that would not keep the electricity on, infuriating SJW culture, easy to have a relationship etc.

  222. Yee says:

    Someone,

    “Jeffy boy, I focus on you because you’re glaringly hypocritical and stupid. At least the other racists dress it up with pseudo science.”

    Jeff isn’t racist, he’s just cynical. He picks on all races of people equally.

    He is pretty good at observations, the problem is he picks out the un-desirable negative side of people first and mainly. I guess it’s a skill you need to survive in foreign countries – the ability to spot danger is very important. Good qualities in people don’t cause dangers to others.

    That said, Jeff doesn’t have much of an opinion on marco-economics that worth anything. I don’t think he’s interested in it, either.

    But I agree with many of your points on economics, financial capitalism IS the root problem of the US. Industrial capitalism is about creating wealth, financial capitalism is about getting a bigger share of wealth created by others, basically.

    The switch from industrial capitalism to financial capitalism in the US started at Reagan era – neo-liberalism.

    Finance is a important, even crucial tool in the era of mass-production. But let it run free, it will loot the producing economics bare eventually.

  223. Yee says:

    Jeff Stryker,

    Chinese go to foreign countries to make better money, pure and simple. Also true for most immigrants in the world, I guess.

    Chinese don’t exclusively go to white countries US, Canada and Australia, they go to South America and Africa too. White countries have better economics and higher income, so they’re more favorable.

    I found it truly unfortunate that hard working and enduring Chinese got laughed at, while aggressive, bullying and lazy people got worshipped in White countries. Perhaps White society is more of a jungle than Chinese one?

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  224. myself says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Why just focus on the Manchus?

    They’re no more alien to China than the Mongols and dozens of other nomad tribes from Asia, all of whom once upon a time had a piece of China.

    Mongols, Manchus, various Siberians, Tungus, Jurchens, Liao, even Tibetans, Huns and asiatic Turks and Japanese all, once upon a time, kicked Han butt. That was then.

    You might agree, that’s got f*ck-all to do with NOW.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  225. myself says:

    I will give one obvious observation regarding the author of the above article.

    A lot of people on this site, including me, offer a lot of personal observations of “the Chinese” and of China itself. Some have lived there, others worked there, studied there, done business with Chinese, married one, etc, etc.

    That’s fine, as far as it goes. Our opinions are completely valid in our own little worlds, our narrow views of China. They may even be of some use to others.

    But the author (Godfree Roberts) has worked the China angle and studied mainland China for DECADES. Plus, he’s got numbers and figures, so he’s not pulling stuff out of his behind.

    Of the handful of whites who may actually know whereof they speak regarding China (and indeed they are few), the article’s author probably merits some serious attention.

    At the very least, let’s credit the man’s study and experience. Nobody ever learned anything thinking he already knew everything.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  226. Joe Wong says:
    @denk

    The Chinese internet channels said China treated Donald Trump regime as Truman regime, the trade war as Korean War if not the Opium War, and they have set up a ten year plan to fight against the American aggression. Probably Chinese has seen the American hostility coming already, cancelling the term limitation of the presidency, chairmanship of the party and military commission were the preparation for the eventuality of the American assault.

    • Replies: @denk
  227. Joe Wong says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Stop believing the Orientalism fabricated by the Anglo and German in the 19th century in according to their ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil puritan’s imagination by demonizing other civilizations with fake news as the Europeans had always done in their eternal war against the Muslims; by claiming credit where credit is not due to gloss over their destruction of Roman civilization; and plunged Europe into thousand years of medieval dark age with cult superstition, civil regression, poverty, wars, feudal serfdom, …

    Europeans believed earth was flat, they would fall into hell if they sailed outside of the Mediterranean Sea until Columbus showed the Spanish Queen a map from the Ming dynasty showing lands outside Mediterranean Sea, that led to the European Renaissance, discovery of new continents and the global dark age of European colonialism.

    BTW all those European advancements were contributed by Spanish, Anglo, Portuguese, etc. not the Germans; German’s contribution to the world is the destruction of two world wars, their defeats and Holocaust.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  228. @Yee

    YEE

    Marco Polo through Donald Trump were all rogues, freebooters and pirates.

    These are the people that whites celebrate because whether at the expense of others or not, they advanced Western civilization.

    If you wanted to break down economics you could simply say that whites are chronic gamblers on the macro-level whose economies are always boom and bust.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @foolisholdman
  229. @Joe Wong

    Eratosthenes had determined that the Earth was round over two thousand years ago. It was common enough that St. Augustine had to write against it:

    But as to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say, men on the opposite side of the Earth, where the sun rises when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite ours that is on no ground credible. And, indeed, it is not affirmed that this has been learned by historical knowledge, but by scientific conjecture, on the ground that the Earth is suspended within the concavity of the sky, and that it has as much room on the one side of it as on the other: hence they say that the part that is beneath must also be inhabited. But they do not remark that, although it be supposed or scientifically demonstrated that the world is of a round and spherical form, yet it does not follow that the other side of the Earth is bare of water; nor even, though it be bare, does it immediately follow that it is peopled. For Scripture, which proves the truth of its historical statements by the accomplishment of its prophecies, gives no false information; and it is too absurd to say, that some men might have taken ship and traversed the whole wide ocean, and crossed from this side of the world to the other, and that thus even the inhabitants of that distant region are descended from that one first man.

    The Chinese were relatively lacking in vigor for exploration, some expeditions aside and the occasional Han effort to send emissaries to Rome(that one did not get further than modern-day Iran).

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Joe Wong
  230. Joe Wong says:
    @myself

    People like Jeff Stryker and Peter Navarro have a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism and constrained by the zero-sum Cold War mentality; they are deeply in nostalgia of past White master race glory and decadent life style provided by the blood of sweat of their enslaved people.

    They are jealous and resentful of Chinese achievements, and fearful that their forebear’s wrongdoing to the others will come back to hound them, as chicken coming home to roost. They will do their upmost best to drag the world back to their colonial imperialist forebear’s world. War or no war, if they cannot have it then nobody can have it is their motto. Denying and bad mouthing with fake news are part of their tool-set to achieve their goal to prevent peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit to become the trend of our times.

  231. @Daniel Chieh

    Theoretically the Huns were from Western China-albeit probably a Turkic subgroup-and they reached Switzerland.

    They also traded in Africa.

    But the Chinese had no desire to actually colonize other continents.

    • Replies: @myself
  232. Joe Wong says:
    @Weaver1

    History has proven religion, particular Christianity and Islam, is the major source of all the ills of the humanity. You are one of the typical cult religion fanatics like the inquisitors, nothing is possible outside your cult religion, anything outside your cult religion must be damned. Look around, how many people got wiped out, and war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peaces have been committed in the name of religion, yet you still claim religion, Christianity in your case, is the only hope for salvation, what a bunch of hypocrites and psychopaths.

    Which religion are you talking about? Islam definitely does not agree with Christianity, they have been at each other throat for thousands of years. If nuclear buttons were all in the hands of religion people, this little pale blue dot, the only place living creatures known to exist, would have been long blown into pieces and disappeared in this vast cold space.

    By the way, preserving one’s own existence is a rational decision that all rational beings will make, but blowing up the world, an irrational act, only irrational cult religion fanatics will do; just to point out the contradiction in your conclusion, a typical logic of religious fanatics.

    • Replies: @Weaver1
  233. denk says:
    @Joe Wong

    fukus is an existential threat to the Chinese and I dont mean only mainland Chinese…remember how they orchestrated the 1965 genocide on Indon Chinese ?

    It has never stopped assaulting the Chinese starting with the Opium war, eight nations alliance, covert wars…TAM, Tibet, Xinjiang, HK, Africa, Apak, overt wars…ECS, SCS, TW ,
    bio war…SARS, bird flu/swine flu…trade wars ….third is a charm. !

    Dumped down murikkans say Trump is better than Clinton, thats B.S., all potus are just puppets on a string, controlled by the shadowy deep states.

  234. Joe Wong says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Did European try to explore East like Chinese trying sending expeditions to Rome? Chinese has plenty of documentation about the West, did the European have anything close? You should point the European was lacking in vigor for exploration. Using modern event to stereotype and demonize the whole civilization is a typical Western obfuscation to build their wicked Orientalism, anyone asserts such bigotry must be exposed and rebutted.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  235. myself says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Theoretically the Huns were from Western China-albeit probably a Turkic subgroup

    The actual original Huns have kind of a murky origin. There were technically neither asiatic Turks or even Mongols at the time of the arising of the Huns, but their tribe seemed to incorporate elements of both proto-cultures.

    Even their geographic origins are unsure, although it’s been pretty convincingly “narrowed” down to “somewhere east of Xinjiang, north of the Yellow river” – that’s not a small region.

    These original Huns were not the exact same people who smashed into the Roman and Persian empires. By that point, they had already assimilated and inter-married with Iranic and Germanic tribes.

  236. @Joe Wong

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations

    Everyone had terrible documentation about each other: Chinese writings of Rome are vastly inaccurate, Rome conflated China(“Seres”) with multiple other countries. And yes, Roman merchants demonstrated interest in reaching the land of silks, but Parthia obviously did not want them to do so.

    • Replies: @anon
  237. peterAUS says:
    @MarkinLA

    Well….I was hoping for a least rudimentary reply/comment to my previous comment.
    This post of yours, or better, some elements of it is the only value I’ve found in this place (article and comments). Just me.
    Well, and a couple of “people” insights, but lets’ move on.

    I’ll try again, maybe even somebody else can chime in (sorry, Jeff, not you).

    Let’s say, for the sake of conversation, that I’ve had some exposure to automation, robotics and corporate senior management.
    That compelled me to believe that, fundamentally, will not be jobs for a lot of people. And, those people will be with lower 60 % of cognitive ability, less (structured) education and last, but not least, mostly from “minority” population.
    Add elderly too.

    So, if that’s likely (as I feel it is) this:

    There will simply be a problem of housing large numbers of unproductive people who have to be fed, clothed and cleaned. Society will make due. They may have to be warehoused like cattle but something will be done and it will not result in a lower level of sophistication.

    could pose some interesting questions:
    What is a productive/non productive person?
    Who decides that?
    And, the most important, what is to be done for, or with, them, in Western societies?
    Say, that “warehousing like cattle” does sound a bit….harsh. Not that TPTB wouldn’t like it; those people being treated as cattle could resent it and a lot..
    That COULD create problems for TPTB. It wouldn’t be M.E. but the same town/city……

    I know that this topic is boring for most of readers/posters on this site but, still, somebody could try.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @MarkinLA
  238. Weaver1 says:
    @Joe Wong

    I argued in defence of theism as opposed to atheism. Nowhere did I assert Christianity is the only religion.

    You’re too emotional to follow my arguments, sadly. You’re not replying to what I’m actually arguing.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Joe Wong
  239. @peterAUS

    PETER

    Your dull answer is that the 1% that owns the automated means of production will be wealthier and the 99% that does not have an hope of ever holding an sort of job will be poorer.

    We will have gone through late stage capitalism and returned to a feudal system of sorts.

    I suppose that we will all be like aboriginals. Except that the question will remain who is going to pay for any of this.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  240. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    I disagree Jeff. White people used to at least respect things like hard work and intelligence. Just look at Ben Franklin and his quotes such as the early bird gets the worm.

    White people, even 30-40 years ago were still closer to this than where they are today.

    Now white people respect blacks the most and mimic blacks because whites just want a leisurely life.

  241. Lin says:
    @Weaver1

    As a Christian(an admirer of Jesus as the greatest moral teacher ever lived) of alternative conviction, I’ve pondered the question for a long time:
    3 streams of thought:
    A)Afterlife traditionally is a pain killer/opiate to ease the pain of the present life. Unavoidable but often manipulated by clergy for their own theocratic ends. However if A.I. could advance fast enough, we might see cybernetic paradise coming into being that the mind and memory of the dying could be uploaded into a supercomputer network as a cybetnetic entity and live hopefully happily ever after in a virtual world. Now even the wicked could enjoy ever lasting life, great isn’t it?

    Jesus, Mohamed, Buddha… will all be welcome as residential guests of honour. Language(and other immigration)requirement will be waived as the ancient language software ‘Babel’ finally got a service pack upgrade.
    …..
    To the omnipotent GOD, ‘virtual’ or ‘real’ existence really make no difference. Just how do we know the world we live in is ‘real’?
    ……..
    B) I had a dream once: I met a majestic fatherly figure in the shape of a reptiloid who told me He was the Supreme being in the universe before the last Big Bang. His subjects, be them treeoids, quadrupedals, reptiloid elite…all led happy life under the benevolent rule of the reptiloid God. Space travel made easy as time-space could be warped after a short prayer to the Reptiloid God. The Reptiloid God had a powerful bipedal lieutenant by the title ‘Yahweh’. Evil brewed in Yahweh’s mind and he launched a cosmic war to usurp the throne of the Reptiloid God. In the fateful Night Fall war near Galaxy Boreas, Yahweh triggered a big Bang to wipe out the remnant Reptiloid Royal space fleet. The Reptiloid God was defeated and retreated into a remote corner of Time-space continuum Yahweh wouldn’t bother about. Hail Yahweh !! Yahweh be praised !!
    ………………………………….
    C)The notion of an omnipotent God is often potrayed as the creator of universe/lives, provider of sustenance of lives.. and what nots…and in human symbolism, the image of a benevolent fatherly figure or a king.

    During the End Time, the Gate of Heaven will be slided open for all living organism to see, by a majestic figure up in the sky. Humans will immediately they are like bacteria inside a giant petri dish called Earth created by a scientist from a higher dimension.The scientist God will say,” look, I’ve created and sustained you humans for a long time, now the experiment has concluded and the nutients inside the petri dish have fast exhausted..” The gate is then shut with a loud bang and petri dish Earth is then thrown into Hell the incinerator

  242. Joe Wong says:
    @Weaver1

    History has shown theism is the plague of humanity, what else need to argue for except white washing and glossing over their sins and crimes with obfuscation like the unrepentant war criminal Japanese, or the Americans who are bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated phantom WMD allegation as humanitarian intervention?

    BTW, you are not listening, like all ‘God-fearing’ sheeples, you cannot image there are better ways than theism to solve problems for humanity.

    • Replies: @Weaver1
    , @Weaver1
  243. Escher says:

    The author has some good points, but his Yellow fever makes it hard to swallow all the statistics he flings at us.
    The name “Godfree” is appropriate for a communist fanboy.

  244. MarkinLA says:
    @Someone

    Well, these countries could very well retaliate on American exports of products, but also of services, and they could just stop buying American weapons.

    First of all, that isn’t what anybody is suggesting. However, even if it was, the US is among a handful of countries that could be completely self-sufficient if it wanted to be.

  245. MarkinLA says:
    @peterAUS

    First of all, I am not here every day. So my non-response is due to that. I was really referring to what I thought were claims that all these elderly who no longer can work would have to be taken care of. I was pointing out that it would be easier to utilize robotics in a large community like setting rather than in smaller assisted living arrangements where robotics are uneconomical.

    Hospitals already utilize them for doling out medicines to each room. We have programmable automated chassis carriers in automobile plants. This could easily be added to hospital beds to take patients to test facilities – same as for the bed ridden elderly. I even think some robotic help could be developed for the bed ridden to help them move to avoid bed sores, help them dress, and even exoskeleton type robots to get them up and moving around.

    The issue of the general population being replaced by robots is an issue related to money as the primary means of exchange – something Fred Reed has written about. The problem with money is that it needs a reason to circulate and the primary reason right now is to make more money. This of course leads to accumulation and stagnation as the 1% run out of yachts, private planes, and vacation homes to buy.

    I don’t have an answer but there are millions of things that can be done but the problem is that in a money oriented society, they don’t make economic sense. You can put millions of people on huge research projects if you don’t really care how much they cost.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  246. peterAUS says:
    @MarkinLA

    I don’t have an answer…

    The thing is, nobody has.

    More importantly, apart from some fringe groups, nobody cares, especially current elites.

    I guess we’ll feel the repercussions for that (willful) oversight . Lower one is in the ladder, harder the feeling will be. “Precariat” in particular. Say…..half of society.

  247. Weaver1 says:
    @Joe Wong

    History reveals atheism to be the plague of humanity. Communist atheists killed over 100 million people, tortured and worked to death millions of others last century. No greater evil has been witnessed. Unbound, communist elites rationally pursue their power interests to the fullest, numb to how many die and suffer in the process.

    It is money, not religion, that drives Americans to bomb others. Many behind America’s wars are atheists, encouraging atheism and depravity in Muslim lands. US wars have harmed Christians greatly.

    You’re afraid of this truth: “Absent a religious foundation, progress falls to relativity.” You can’t face that truth; you fear the abyss, because you haven’t addressed it yet.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  248. Weaver1 says:
    @Joe Wong

    Particular examples might help you understand the issue:

    If China comes to power, with a head of state who is largely unbound by his Party and also unbound by Europe and the US (who will have fallen into decay and civil war):

    China’s leader then could do anything. It might look to Africa’s rich resources, decide it would be easier to obtain them if not for Africa’s disruptive tribal population. A virus might be engineered that targets only Africans, or perhaps birth control would be pumped throughout African water supplies. This mass genocide would in a sense be “rational”, because China desires resources, though most religions would find it immoral. I certainly don’t wish to wipe out Africa.

    Alternatively, China’s leader might realise it would be more efficient were China’s populace replaced by genetically engineered workers, bred to be compliant. GDP might improve, crime decline, thus all would be in a sense “rational”. Though again, most religions would find this immoral.

    You seem to believe what is “rational” is somehow clearly set. It is not.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  249. Miro23 says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    PETER

    Your dull answer is that the 1% that owns the automated means of production will be wealthier and the 99% that does not have an hope of ever holding an sort of job will be poorer.

    We will have gone through late stage capitalism and returned to a feudal system of sorts.

    I suppose that we will all be like aboriginals. Except that the question will remain who is going to pay for any of this.

    It may not even be feudal .

    Under feudalism, a feudal lord ran something like a mini-state, collecting taxes in produce, money or labor and providing protection, a system of local justice/arbitration and support of traditions, marriage, the church etc.

    Under neo-liberal market “feudalism” no one has any obligation to anybody – least of all community and tradition.

    If an individual can’t “compete” they’re a “loser” and their less than survival wage job is sent to Bangladesh. Maybe the government can help, but the end of the line is the Philippines where half the population of capital city Manila live in extreme poverty in the shanty towns lining the expressways, railroad tracks and waterways.

  250. @Miro23

    FUTURE PHILIPPINES

    Did you ever wonder what would happen when China takes of the WORLD economy. Go to the Philippines, owned by Chinese-born tycoons.

    Most of the squatters there DO work. But the Chinese pay what they want, which is less than children pay one another at a lemonade stand.

    This is one reason for the drug war because people have to sell meth made in China to make ends meet in the Philippines. China is essentially responsible for most of the Philippines woes.

    As for a world without jobs with some basic universal income one need only visit the black ghetto to see how people while away idle time.

    More white people might spend their time at the library, but you will still see social pathology as humans with nothing to do but drink and screw sink into depravity.

    There will be a touch of India as well because capitalism is as rigid as caste system. Those who own the means of production will arrange marriages and maintain old boys networks.

    There will be no middle-class, so the government and police won’t be held in check. The only middle-class job remaining will be the police and this will create a police state riddled with corruption…just like the Philippines.

  251. @Miro23

    COMMUNITY AND TRADITION

    Many of the people I knew as a middle-class white prole ended up the lowliest of peasants in Southeast Michigan or redneck Phoenix. No different than serfs under feudalism, albeit with higher standards of living.

    The surfeit of new communication technology seems to have obfuscated the fact that Gen Y cannot even afford to move out of their parents house, much less by their own.

    In the Philippines, Chinese-Filipinos own 90% of the businesses and the land is owned by a few rich Spanish-blooded families.

    Most of the squatters do work…at the wages that Chinese are willing to pay. Which are dog shit.

    When they resort to trying to sell drugs-no surprise when people are desperate and others are seeking a cheap vacation-they with a police state.

    We’ll get to that point in the US. A police state riddled with corruption that has to resort to street wars as people on some Universal Basic Income become like welfare blacks in South Chicago.

    There is some fanciful idea that the future will be a glory of technology and free from poverty…it will look like a cross between Brazil and Philippines.

  252. Yee says:

    Jeff Stryker,

    Please— would you stop blaming Philippines’ problems on China? Philippines is and has been US colony for over 100 years! She copy US system, takes order from the US. She’s your making.

    How is it China’s fault, or the Chinese-Filipinos’ fault, that Philippines runs a pure capitalism system, even if the capitalists happen to be ethnic Chinese? The Chinese didn’t set up their system, the Americans did. And capitalism is what the Filipinos want, too… Capitalism follows the supply and demand market rule, including labor market.

    Isn’t it funny that Philippines copy everything from US, even manage to copy some of the problems of the US, drugs and low pay jobs? Only the “China stealing technologies” part is missing…

    “Those who own the means of production will arrange marriages and maintain old boys networks.”

    Don’t you find it strange that the ruling class push hard the “individualism” to the masses, but tightly united among themselves?

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  253. peterAUS says:
    @Miro23

    ….but the end of the line is the Philippines where half the population of capital city Manila live in extreme poverty in the shanty towns lining the expressways, railroad tracks and waterways.

    Something like that.
    I tend to see Rio favelas as closer scenario for Western societies, US included.
    The same disparity, but much more of control and somewhat more breads and circuses.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  254. @myself

    Mongols, Manchus, various Siberians, Tungus, Jurchens, Liao, even Tibetans, Huns and asiatic Turks and Japanese all, once upon a time, kicked Han butt. That was then.
    You might agree, that’s got f*ck-all to do with NOW.

    You forgot the British and a good many other European powers, Japan and the USA (not to mention the USSR) carved up China, and who also “kicked Han butt”.

    You may think that is “That was then.” and “that’s got f*ck-all to do with NOW”; but I can assure you that to the Chinese it is NOT. Not merely did they kick Han butt but they did so in ways that hurt abominably, such as forcing Chinese to behave as 2nd class citizens in their own country, (“NO DOGS OR CHINESE ALLOWED”) and causing an epidemic of drug addiction, looting the country of its commercially valuable and historically important artifacts and preventing them from finishing off their revolution. Add to that a huge catalog of minor annoyances such as embargos and sanctions of one sort and another and I can but wonder at their patience and forbearance.

  255. @Jeff Stryker

    Booms and busts are, apart from a few due to freakish bad weather, engineered by banks and have been so since medieval times.

  256. @Weaver1

    Seems to me that what you are describing could just as well be done by the oh-so-religious rulers of the USA; and in fact, based on their history, it is much more likely to be done by them than by Xi Jinping or the CCP.

    • Replies: @Weaver1
  257. @Miro23

    Under neo-liberal market “feudalism” no one has any obligation to anybody – least of all community and tradition.
    If an individual can’t “compete” they’re a “loser” and their less than survival wage job is sent to Bangladesh. Maybe the government can help, but the end of the line is the Philippines where half the population of capital city Manila live in extreme poverty in the shanty towns lining the expressways, railroad tracks and waterways

    .

    This is the ideal, the dream situation for the capitalist. This is what you get when the capitalist system is given full power and any push back by the oppressed is put down by the military, with the help of the USA if needed.

    This, and far worse, was the situation that the Great Powers imposed on China and it was overthrown by Mao Zedong and the other heroes of the Chinese revolution, for doing which, the said heroes are still so viscerally hated and feared to this day, by TPTB in the West and I might add, so revered and loved in China.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  258. @Yee

    YEE

    I LIVED/WORKED in Cebu, Philippines for three years. But fine, we’ll forget about “Chinoys”.

    A president who calls the US president a son of a prostitute is not subject to any sort of colonialism.

    Germany was briefly a colony of Britain and the UK owned Canada at one point as well. When are are people going to get over “colonialism”? There ARE NO colonies anymore.

    The Philippines was a colony of Spain for 400 years and like Macau the mixed-blood descendants of the colonists left the land and governing to their concubines children who form the ruling elite.

    To the extent that the Philippines copies any country, it would be Latin America.

    You put too much stock in the US, Yee. It has a great capacity for CULTURAL COLONIALISM because whites (And Jews) have a great skill for creating market demand for things like Coca-Cola or coffee shops.

    Beyond that, the US is really not much of anything. It could not win a war against the Uighar of Western China or maintain their province as a colony. The US can barely afford the police state required to keep is own internal third world cities of Blacks and Hispanics from complete anarchy.

    When Duterte requested support against the Muslim insurgents the US did not respond and could not respond. They are too bankrupt and too disinclined to enter the Philippines problems of Muslim insurgency.

  259. @foolisholdman

    YEE

    Individualism is for Clint Eastwood films where some lone cowboy with an elitist personality rides off alone into the sunset.

    That only happens in movies, Yee.

    In real life various special interest groups determine whether or not the US government should be utilized to meet some mutual gain.

  260. @peterAUS

    The Philippines is not as dangerous as Brazil and I lived there for three years.

    Brazil is the US future-a small white elite who cope with a vast underclass of blacks and Mestizo Mulatto whom the white elite cannot possibly cope with through Affirmative Action or welfare.

    Detroit and South Chicago are more dangerous than the Philippines in point of fact.

    If I told you that you could parachute into Manila OR South Chicago in the dark of night…what would your choice be?

  261. @Weaver1

    Religion isn’t going to stop any of that, people can and have gamed religion like they can game anything else.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Weaver1
  262. @Daniel Chieh

    China will succeed the US as a Superpower for simple reasons.

    First, it is a relatively homogeneous population. Western China’s Muslims are a minor problem compared to the racial problems of the West.

    Second, it has a vast educated and capable population.

    Third, the police do not have to deal with constant crime.

    Most VILE Chinese crimes-hold-ups of gambling parlors that turn into shootouts or heroin czars or prostitution/human trafficking-take place in US/Canada.

    When you read that some Chinese heroin addicts shot a bunch of people in a majong game you know it took place in Vancouver or New York.

    China is probably happy to see Northeast Chinese unemployed homosexual transvestites and run-of-the-mill promiscuous female peasants go somewhere and make a living as prostitutes. And demand in the West will always be inelastic-it probably reduces rape and pedophile molestation in Dubai, for example.

    The West also gets infusions of cash from the wealthy business community. Trump is real estate mogul…he’d tell you that. He’s made millions off Chinese property investors.

    I come to this blog to repeat simple facts that are proven. There is no debating facts. They ex

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  263. @Yee

    YEE

    “Colonies”

    In the case of the Philippines they don’t know who to lean on-one minute they want to lean on the US, then China and then Russia and then back to the US again when China shrugs off overtures and Russia shows no interest.

    Philippines has found nobody who really ultimately wants much to do with them. Strategic importance aside they are a Latin America in Asia with all the pathology of Mexico or Brazil-a small elite pale-skinned land-owning class…a narco-economy…kleptomaniacs…

    Technological thefts…Filipinos are like the rats nibbling at the garbage outside two competing restaurants in trickle-down theory.

  264. Weaver1 says:
    @foolisholdman

    Those at the mercy of the powerful should be grateful when those powerful refrain from abuse, because often the strong do so exploit their position. And who is to say, outside of a religion, that the strong abusing the weak is somehow wrong?

    Peace arises from a balance of power that prevents the strong from abusing the weak. Religion, tradition, nationalism, community (meaning human-scale (small) social communities), etc. can help provide that balance, just as they can create imbalance. Atheism, however, is always imbalanced.

    When the US declines, another power structure will replace it. If that structure is balanced, then it might not meddle much in the affairs of others. If it is China alone, ruled by a single ruler, then we could likely see great abuse, just as we see abuse today. China is limited today in whom it may abuse, only because it is weak. The US abuses others, because it is strong and unrestrained. (Also, the US is barbaric, ruled by common voters and special interests.) Such is the way of power.

  265. Weaver1 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Religion is part of the solution, if those in power believe.*

    Power interests aren’t driven solely by a pursuit of power. Some are legitimate nationalists, some legitimately devout. I’m no fan of Nietzsche, but I believe he wrote, “the spirited triumph over the strong.” Something like that.

    I have other ideas on power relations. Religion is just a component, which isn’t to say I’m some expert.

    *CS Lewis loosely paraphrased, I want to say? He said the powerful can also believe, I think.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  266. @Jeff Stryker

    When you read that some Chinese heroin addicts shot a bunch of people in a majong game you know it took place in Vancouver or New York.

    Would you provide source please.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  267. @Weaver1

    The powerful usually believe only a fashion that enabled them to become powerful. For example – Catholicism, despite incredible authority, struggled to control the behavior of princes and sometimes enabled them.

    I understand the notion of religious morals as a “source of legitimacy” but its freely interpreted to justify just about anything. One could look at science, which is basically the modern “source of legitimacy” and which technically has much stronger constraints and see how much it has been blissfully mangled to support just about any view you wish politically. Just pick and choose the studies you wish to affirm, and the scientists who agree with you.

    By and large, religion seems broadly useful as social technology that controls the masses. Its effect on elite behavior is dubious, even to the devout, since they can largely use their same intelligence to make it justify anything they want(War as Joshua did? Forgive as Jesus did? A large canon allows for extensive interpretation).

    Voltaire, incidentally, talked about this.

    • Replies: @Weaver1
  268. @Daniel Chieh

    MAH WEE MASSACRE

    Seattle, 1983

    13 hog-tied and murdered (Chinese emigres, elderly)

    It was a perfect storm. Benjamin Ng and Tony Nig were Chinese-American petty hoodlums with records dating back to their childhood-both 2nd generation.

    “Willie” Mak was a Chinese Hong Kong immigrant who’d been hardened in seedy neighborhoods there who found his way to Seattle where he worked in illegal casinos and was a street level heroin dealer.

    He also found out that local police were paid to ignore the gambling and the response time by the police would be delayed.

    They hog-tied the 13 victims and executed all of them.

    It was the deadliest massacre in Washington history.

    Tony Ng managed to find his way to Vancouver and it was two years before he was tracked down and extradited.

    Willie Mak was given a death sentence. Both of the Ng’s got life but Tony Ng was later released on parole.

    There was a minor public outcry that because the victims were Chinese the authorities and public were indifferent. This is probably true. No school shooter accomplice could ever be released for such a crime.

    Most of the criminals were hardened in Hong Kong ghettos before making their way to the West.

    As Yee has noted, the Northeast bleak China-Russia border towns export some rough types. Mostly career prostitutes of all genders who just want a greater clientele. If you are selling your body, you’re going to make more money in Dubai (More true of homosexual prostitutes than female ones in fact).

    This is not a statement of any kind about China. It is simply a fact.

    I simply state facts. They are not insults or even attempts to create some bias.

    It is simply what is fact.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  269. A LESSER OF TWO EVILS: The relationship between Dubai and Northeast China

    Dubai’s rape rates were out of control and it was not always the locals. Indian construction workers gang-raped English women (In one case 50 of them) on beaches. English schoolteachers convinced Arab girls to perform oral sex on them. Filipino cross-dressers spread AIDS.

    Russian hookers brought pimps and the Russian mafia. South Asian prostitutes brought run-of-the-mill STD’s.

    Dubai relaxed a bit to allow visas to women from the Chinese-Russian border cities. Nice well-behaved career prostitutes-affordable and accessible.

    Of course I know this because I lived in Dubai for seven years and patronized their services every weekend for 7 years.

    At any rate, the rape rates fell. The authorities did not complain.

  270. anon[181] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    15th century Europe was very close to the nature . It was common sight in rural areas to see family bring their goats and cows tin winter o live with them in the one bed room shack they called home .

    That where they sprang from .

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Philip Owen
  271. @Jeff Stryker

    That was a long time ago. And I just wanted to know what you were referring to – thanks.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  272. Yee says:

    Jeff Stryker,

    No matter how long Philippines had been a Spain colony, the US setup the current super-structures, political, economics, justice, education, etc., before letting it go independence. The country is a US creation.

    The US influence isn’t just Coca-Cola, McDonald’s, Starbucks, movies, music, etc. Actually those hardly matter. But all their political and military elites, or anyone worth of anything, is educated in the US. The Philippines is a totally conquered country.

    Not that I blame them for subservient to the US. The country has little value other than militarily for an outside power. It’s not important for regional power.

    Unlike the rest of Southeast Asia, the Philippines is a lone country on the Pacific side to China, while the rest more or less squeezed on the other side. It hardly worth investing in. Duerter can’t change much. Too bad the US doesn’t treat their pet well.

  273. Yee says:

    As for the Muslims, they are just a geo-political tool used by the West. They don’t hold any real power – economics, technology, military, anywhere in the world.

    I hope the West decline soon so the Muslim world can start their version of Renaissance and Reformation. it’s about time, since Islam is about 600 years later than Christianity in the beginning.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  274. @anon

    That wasn’t true of most of Europe – places that struggled against the extreme cold like Finland did have a setup like that, but that’s because they were using the oven for warmth and thus a tiny enclosed setup was actually a plus despite the smoke. But the typical medieval peasant setup was one room for the oven to isolate the smoke(chimneys as we understand it, weren’t too common) and one room for the living area(including bedroom).

    In winter, animals would be brought in, yes. The alternative would be to let them freeze.

    This was in no means opulent and at times a table or bench could often be a bed, etc, but one should also note that people didn’t live in their homes much of the time. Most of life was spent either outdoors, or in common areas such as inns where a single large fire could efficiently provide warmth and light to a large group of people, as well as provide the social glue for society always helped by lots and lots of alcohol.

  275. Weaver1 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I disagree that science constrains anything really. It’s just a pursuit of knowledge. It’s popular to assert our genetics drive us towards some ethical valuation; but largely I disagree with that, because we’re not given objective values, only feelings.

    You make a good argument, but I believe it is only religion which could justify the values I hold. What I fear is the loss of that which gives life value. I fear the world becoming plastic and meaningless. If I go into a nature reserve, I don’t want to see trees growing neon advertisements in their bark for Monsanto. I instead wish to see trees that developed without the direct influence of man, perhaps being bred but never genetically altered. So, their source is with a sense of the Creator or at least beyond man. Pagans often saw nature as tied to the gods.

    I fear man replacing God, in a sense. And I fear the resulting moral relativity.

    And, to keep things brief, I’d prefer nations to be distinct, developing their own traditions, organically. Elites direct development somewhat, but I hope not to have direct genetic engineering, especially not in the creation of genes that weren’t preexisting.

    If you can follow my concerns there, that’s really all I have to say. It’s a simple concern. Wars and famines can take place, yet sources of meaning would still exist in the world. What I fear most I perceive as much worse than any hypothetical body count from another sort of disaster.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  276. @Yee

    YEE

    “Anyone worth anything is educated in the US”

    The people worth the most are educated in Hong Kong or Fuji Province. I know this personally.

    The Spanish land-owning elite will go to Spain because like the Macau Portuguese mixed-bloods they are dual citizens and speak the language.

    The military elites could be trained in the US. I never met any.

    As for the politicians, they are so inept and corrupt that I would not be surprised if they were educated in shoplifting in jail.

    “The country is a US creation”

    The Spanish mixed-bloods own the land and are political influential to this day.

    “Subservient to the US”

    The US would probably put a halt to drug executions if it could. It cannot. Duterte told the president he was a son of a prostitute.

    You know Yee, I’m sorry to be argumentative but I’ve lived in Cebu.

  277. @Yee

    YEE

    Dubai and other oil-rich countries will remain apolitical-they have to sell their product to the biggest markets. The biggest markets are developed countries.

    When women are kept barefoot and pregnant and have 6 kids each, a country will never be developed.

    If such a thing did happen then quite possibly Western China would be bankrolled by Turkey or Pakistan.

  278. @Yee

    “Subservience”

    Imelda Marcos could not be pulled from her dictatorship and got violent and had to be shot up with a sedative to be flown to Hawaii.

    We then had to put up this worthless glorified shoplifter-Filipino women in particular are Kleptomaniacs-until her husband died and she returned to the Philippines.

    All on the US taxpayer’s dime.

    So who is subservient to who, in the end.

  279. @Daniel Chieh

    It is hard to be a career criminal in China.

    You’ll get busted once for stealing cars or selling heroin and go away for 5 years instead 5 months in the US or Canada.

    Nor can I get that worked up over 40 year old homosexual “rent boys” from the Northeast provinces who can make 1,000 a night off Arabs in Dubai.

    • Replies: @myself
  280. Yee says:

    Jeff Stryker,

    Well, arguing about whether the US caused the Philippines’ problems is pointless, I guess. Ultimately, people is responsible for their own country.

    I guess the Filipinos cause their own problems foundamentally. But they certainly imitate the US political, economic, education etc. systems, just like India imitate Britain, believing those are the recipes for success for their countries. But it seems to prove that the US and Britain has some “secret recipes” other than their promoted systems.

    What I see in Philippines and India is that, a country with a large population can’t run a working economy without a significant producing base. You can’t run a large population mainly on service sector.

    You may opt for communism for state to invest in the producing sector, or capitalism for private capita to do that, but you must build a significant producing base.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Autochthon
  281. @Yee

    YEE

    It is cultural character. Singapore found itself in the same situation but by 1980 its cities were safer and more modern that the United States.

    You start off with rampant promiscuity which is celebrated among Filipinos and results in early parenthood.

    You throw in a Catholic ban on birth control with a ridiculous overpopulation.

    You include bad character traits like impulsiveness and thievery like Marcos so that the government is controlled by Kleptocrats.

    This in turn means lousy schools, police corruption, crime, bad infrastructure etc.

    Indians in Singapore have been wrestled into the 21st century by Chinese but not easily.

    In my opinion it is cultural.

  282. @Weaver1

    I fear man replacing God, in a sense. And I fear the resulting moral relativity.

    Its a pity, but I think we’re already there. And we make lousy gods.

  283. Yawn. I stopped reading save to skim the last bits after I encountered the arguments positing filings and grants for patents as a valid representation of innovation and scientific advancement (they are not at all) and the adoption of the United Nations’ corny conventions as evidence workers’ rights and environmental protections were advancing: for an apt illustration of how little such charades reflect reality, examine actual conditions in Foxconn’s facilities or take a stroll in the fresh air of Beijing.

    You know who had the most stalwart protections for civil rights like freedom and liberty to speak and assemble during most of the twentieth century?: the Russians…on paper.

    I’ll consider raising your grade from F to C- if you submit a rewritten essay without false premises as the argument’s foundation before the final exam. Hint: consider revisiting piracy, intellectual property’s theft, and trumped-up charges and convictions for restraint of trade against foreign corporations and in favour of governmentally owned Chinese enterprises. You can start by taking a look at China’s development and adoption of its own standards for cellular communications whose sole purpose was to preclude interoperability and extort licensing royalties from the firms in America and Europe (and, tp a lesser extent, Japan and Korea) that actually advance the the state of the art for wireless telecommunications.

    The first bit – about the F.U.S.A.’s being crippled by stupid mestizos, Negroes, and the like whilst simultaneously gutting a system which used to identify and educate brilliant white kids on farms in Nebraska – does, however, have much validity to it. And automation of manufacturing is indeed the future, but it must be done as the Germans and and Japanese do it (note their numbers in your graphs): by maintaining quality (not as the Chinese do it, with the nightmares of so-called quality-fade already cited).

  284. @Yee

    You can’t run a large population mainly on service sector.

    Hence the brilliance of rapidly overpopulating the F.U.S.A. to Chinese and Indian – nay, Nigerian! – proportions.

  285. myself says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    get busted once for stealing cars or selling heroin and go away for 5 years

    Several years for stealing a car sounds about right.

    The selling drugs part means you tell them who you’re working for (and you will tell them), and then probably gets you a bullet in the head – for which you will be thankful, as the suffering will be over.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  286. @myself

    That probably goes through the mind of the average Hong Kong would-be heroin pusher.

    Should I move to North America and be a millionaire or should I get a bullet in the head?

    It is probably not a difficult decision.

  287. The story of ZTE’s demise and humiliation exposed China as a paper tiger. China couldn’t do anything to the U.S. while the Uncle Sam practically destroyed one of its leading IT companies.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-zte/departing-zte-executive-describes-deep-humiliation-in-farewell-letter-idUSKBN1JX0FY

    ZTE, which relies on U.S. suppliers for core components, had to cease major operations in April after the U.S. government imposed the ban, saying the firm broke an agreement to discipline executives who conspired to evade U.S. sanctions on Iran and North Korea.

    As part of the settlement, ZTE agreed to pay a $1 billion fine, put $400 million in escrow, and hire a U.S.-appointed compliance monitor. It also agreed to replace its board, remove all members of its leadership at or above senior vice-president level along with any executives associated with the wrongdoing, within 30 days

    China better know its place from now on, otherwise Huawei will be the next one to go.

  288. US Tech Ban on ZTE Has Exposed China’s Achilles’ Heel

    China’s reliance on key technologies from the West shows it still needs the developed economies much more than they need China

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2143534/us-tech-ban-zte-has-exposed-chinas-achilles-heel

    China is easily the most overrated country in the world right now. It has so many critical weaknesses that are not talked about in the media, and is not even close to matching the U.S. in terms of comprehensive national power.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  289. anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @Vidi

    The US Gross External Debt is simply one side of the balance sheet. The net investment position is small. Americans and American companies own a lot of direct foreign investments, foreign equities and debt.

  290. @unpc downunder

    Underlying construction costs, food prices and utility provision are huge numbers of imports. The same fnor low cost automobiles. Without Japanese and Germa competition, car prices would still be high and the machines would be gas guzzlers needing even more imported energy.

  291. @China Exposed

    It is the American way. I remember being at a data storage conference in San Jose in the 1980′s when Japanese disk drive manufacturers were making inroads into the US market. There were racist cartoons in presentations about the Japanese and the Scots (also doing well at the time in the disk drive business). Then one of the Japanese arrived. The hall became pin drop quiet. That was when I understood that the US has a deep rooted problem with racism, not just the black-white issue.

    The current tariff stupidities are part of that.

    Imports are other people’s value added sent to you. They are a bonus. They improve living standards. Exports are your added value sent to others. They are a drain on your living standards. Exports are how weaker economies pay for imports. Stronger economies have other solutions.:
    Revenue from overseas investments. The US and UK have lots.
    Getting other people to use your currency. UK, EuroZone, UK and Japan do this.
    Sales of assets to foreigners.
    Borrowing. The UK has paid its debts since the Restoration (1660). Good risk.

    Economic growth means that good risks like the UK and US can borrow against future growth. High productivity countries can have overseas investments that outperform the locals and simultaneously attract investment into the productive country from less productive foreign countries.

    The resources released by increased imports allow faster growth.

    So, restricting Free Trade is to give up these benefits. A large part of the expansion of the world economy in the last 500 years has been brought about by freer trade than before.

  292. @Agent76

    In practical terms, it happened a month ago.

  293. @anon

    In England and Wales, it was better than a one room shack. I cam from an area where people still live in medieval stone long houses. They were built that well. In winter, the animals would live at one end of the long house and the people on a slightly raised boarded floor at the other. Sleeping quarters would be in a hayloft above the animals (the heat from the animals keeping all concerned warmer). Chimneys did not come into use until Tudor times so air pollution of all kinds was high.

    The longhouses I know usually have an 18th Century or later house next to them. So I guess they were in use well past 1750.

    Most long houses and similar contemporary buildings in lowland England were half timbered and have decayed. That said, there was often a separate cottage and cowshed as in lowland Wales, especially in arable farming areas where cattle were few and rustling infrequent. However, the big factor in arable areas was that people lived in villages so there were few large animals. Longhouses were for shepherds.

  294. @Chief Seattle

    Typical complete idiot on this idiot website blames “welfare.” Go back under your damp rock.

  295. @Joe Wong

    I judge by the quality of your English that you have lived in the West for many years. Regardless of which race has the most legitimate claim to the land of Australia, do you not realize that you were allowed to immigrate here by white people and effectively live here at their mercy?

  296. Anon[358] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    I will share my own experience of migrating to Oz.

    Decades ago, my little old public apartment worth half a million, but it can exchange for a new comfortable huge landed double storey house with private lawn & garage in Oz, even with private jetty for some outskirt area. My little old jap car residue value will exchange for a brand new Mercedes in Oz. This make me debt free, asset rich to retire by early 30s.

    Further, i can withdraw all retirement funds kept by gov upon giving up my citizenship, another few hundred thousands cash to spare.

    Uni Education is good which i can easily get some local master deg or Phd so to teach 3hrs/day for gd decent income to live by, or get social benefit if to fully lay back. Food is dirt cheap. Living standard is good. Asian migrants only live in upper class neighbourhood, which is pretty safe.

    That’s some reasons why Asians like HK, Spore, Msia, Korean, Indo…we moved down under, only bcos its a cheap & gd deal. Not that our country is bad, we rank higher than most OECD with plenty of gd pay jobs & opportunities, much lower crime rate & gd education, but just too expensive & stress to live for some wanted to retire comfortably.

    China cities are as expensive if not more than Asian cities, and many may have hidden wealth to splash only in overseas. They too have plenty of gd reasons to migrate, not that China is so bad as demonized by msm(similar for NK). Btw, we won’t able to migrate to China even we want to, they are very strict in immigration control & visa.

    The West & foolish Oz people who never been to China are brainwashed by msm to look down on Chinese to their own peril. Even Spore, HK have to learn from China now, after been its model & tutor for last few decades.

  297. Anon[384] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hbd investor

    China invested heavily in infrastructures & important areas like health & education that have multiplying effect to its economic growth, living standard & security. Such domestic debts tho very high, are positive & will repay itself in long term.

    On the other hand, US & the West borrowed heavily for wars & oligarchs interest, while cutting social needs esp education & leaving infrastructures dilapidated. The result is obvious from such bad debts.

    And one most critical pt is, China is one few countries still maintain its independent from Rothschild controlled central banking system. It prints money & controlled according to its national interest & needs for domestic development, without need to borrow foreign debts like others that exposed to West currency raiding & blackmail.

    US never has the sovereign right to printing $ but to borrow from private bankers’ FED at an interest, heaping unsustainable debts.

  298. Anon[384] • Disclaimer says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    China did make strategic wrong plan in birth control, as the limit was only placed on urban Hans population that are their best & most productive group, while allowing poor peasants & minorities unrestrained growth.

    This upset some China planners & hawkish army generals who think such move has degraded over Chinese IQ & best stocks(well still one of highest IQ), professing Chinese should dominate the world by sheer number(like Islam strategy).

    However, as Chinese leaders said, its a good intention to mankind, as China explosive uncontrolled population will be disastrous for both China & the world. The world should thks China for able to feed a billion people without giving any crisis & refugee avalanche.

    China will be able to continue its growth after population saturation pt reach globally without need to blindly follow the disastrous West immigrant policy:

    1) Adopt same West imperialism model by starting to plunder other countries, esp the declining West using its mighty military & economic dominant achieve by then. Lead Asian to reverse colonized the West, either enslave the whites or wipe them out like how they did to indigenous in past.

    2) Help the entire world to have sustainable grow by releasing all their untapped potential with necessary structures, maintain prosperity with peace, hence a growing stable global market for Chinese products.

    3) Innovation through technology, AI, Big Data, Automation, etc. to offset shrinking population, while serving mankind instead of capitalists & 1%.

    Appearancely, China under Prez Xi is wise to not fall for No.1 based on ancient wisdom. Chinese ancient strategists had all long warn their leaders against such move that will bound to make the country fall eventually.

    Option No.2 & 3 are adopted with BRI & 2025 plan, state controlled innovation. Hopefully future new Chinese leaders will all follow that ancient wisdom path down when Prez Xi retired.

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