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The WTO and China
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In 2003 I congratulated a young Chinese banker on his country’s accession to the WTO, cautioning that the trade body was a Western ideological post-Cold War creation designed not merely to enshrine export-oriented development models but to advance neoliberal trade norms. After a moment’s reflection he responded, “I agree with your view of the WTO’s history but this is a game we can win”.

‘Free trade’ has always been an imperial project and withdrawal from free trade pacts–whether formal or informal always occurs when the imperial trading power wanes and its losses begin to outweigh gains. British governments practised free trade imperialism throughout the 19th century, forcing dependent members of the empire, like India, to accept free trade by using their naval power to cajole weaker nations into signing treaties which involved no concessions by Britain herself–a strategy that remained an important element in British imperial expansion until the early 20th century.

When the WTO came into existence in 1994, the U.S. and E.U. owned 56% of global GDP and, because of the their huge markets, controlled the Uruguay Round negotiations that led to the WTO’s creation, which they viewed as a victory, in constitutional terms, for economic liberalism. In a memorable moment of triumphalism the US–never reluctant to claim victory prematurely– promised that China’s membership would transform it into a market economy and move it towards liberal democracy.

China had requested membership of GATT in 1986 but it was not until 2001 that WTO members approved her accession (in Doha) after forcing her to accept reduced rights against other members compared to standard WTO rules, to open her markets, eliminate state monopolies on imports and exports and to significantly change her domestic laws, regulations, and practices. China was forced to agree to open its economy to competition and to overhaul its domestic laws, regulations, procedures, and administrative and judicial institutions across all levels of government, to make deep tariff commitments for imports, to significantly liberalize services and to agree that all regulations affecting trade would be nondiscriminatory and that government standard-setting would be transparent and based on international standards. China further committed to stringent IP protection and independent review of all trade-related administrative actions by judicial or administrative tribunals.

The country had started revising its laws before it joined the WTO when, as gatekeeper to China’s accession, the U.S. pressed China to agree to China-specific rules that granted other WTO members greater rights against China than China had against them–thus violating the core nondiscrimination norm in WTO law–particularly galling provisions given China’s legacy of ‘unequal treaties’ with imperialist powers. China was also forced to accept market access tariff commitments far deeper than any comparable economy: the imposition of tariffs on trade goods reduced to 10% by 2008, for example, while richer Brazil agreed to 31% and India, 48%. China was also required to make broader and deeper commitments on services liberalization in key sectors like financial, telecommunication, professional, and distribution services than any comparable economy.

But by 2009 her rising economic power and strengthened legal capacity had changed the situation dramatically and, in 2010, China became the world’s largest economy and Nobelist Robert Fogel predicting that, by 2040, its GDP would be twice America’s and Europe’s combined. In 2013 it became the world’s largest trader in goods and international legal scholars began talking of a “Beijing consensus” displacing the neoliberal “Washington consensus.”

How did this reversal come about?

In 2001, Western negotiators were probably unaware that they were dealing with a nation so skilled in national trading that it had actually made profits on the ‘gifts’ that powerful barbarian tribes extorted from it for centuries so there was huge enthusiasm in China for the move. The government sponsored WTO centers around the country, staged thousands of seminars and published more of books on WTO law than the WTO itself. It organized a ‘WTO Knowledge Contest’ in which five million people participated and broadcast the final session on CCTV like a game show and the winner was feted and flown to Geneva to meet WTO Director-General Supachai Panitchpakdi. Hundreds of Chinese officials, judges, and scholars visited the U.S. for WTO law training and even more traveled to China to teach it.

Fast forward to 2018 and American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain and, as a result, appear less committed to upholding the regime it created and its complaints now focus on how the rules it imposed asymmetrically help China. While China has learned to use the WTO legal regime to effectively challenge U.S. trade remedy measures, the U.S. has found it increasingly difficult to use WTO rules to address China’s trade barriers. When China required Internet companies to use local servers and software companies to hand over source code, the U.S. found WTO rules unavailing. The US has been unable to make headway in modifying or introducing WTO rules to constrain China and has began seeking alternative arrangements in which China does not participate in negotiations. The Obama administration tried but failed to thwart existing WTO jurisprudence through the TPP in Asia and the TTIP in Europe but, since the Trump administration abandoned the TPP, China has taken the lead in negotiating trade agreements governing Asian economic integration by excluding the United States.

This apparent victory did not come easily. Chinese exports have faced close regulatory and legal scrutiny and have triggered far more anti-dumping, countervailing duty and import relief measures than products from any other country. By 2009, China was the object of forty percent of al anti-dumping investigations and seventy-five percent of countervailing duties in the world. For the first few years, China had tried to avoid litigation by settling every complaint brought against it while formally proposing to limit to two the number of complaints that a developed country could bring against a developing-country member in a calendar year, since ‘the lack of human and financial resources as well as capacities and experiences of developing-country Members results in de facto imbalance in the participation in the dispute settlement mechanism’. But in the meantime the government invested in studying the dispute settlement process by attending every WTO panel proceeding as a third party and learning from the example of the United States and E.U. Then, after learning how the system operated, China became active as a litigant, first as a respondent and then as a complainant.

Beginning with the China-Auto Parts case in 2006, she began to raise strong defenses in almost every case through substantive and procedural arguments. Its litigation strategy became even more aggressive and it advanced creative interpretations of its accession protocol commitments to reduce asymmetries, a change that represented a ‘transformation for China from the perspective that litigation is not the goal’ to one where ‘we now accept that multilateral dispute settlement process is an appropriate channel for resolving disputes. Although many in government feel shocked that we are a defendant in an international court, and still think that litigation is not good, which is a reflection of our heritage, our culture, we now accept it’. One official thought ‘highly of the system’ because it ultimately makes it ‘easier to settle’ disputes thanks to the third-party rulings.

The U.S. and the E.U. have lost four important WTO cases to China since 2010 involving billions of dollars of imports. The pneumatic tires case (DS379) against the U.S., involved $18 billion in imports while a case against the E.U. involving steel fasteners (DS397) involved almost $5 billion and created precedent regarding the legality of U.S. and E.U. anti-dumping and countervailing duty methodologies that affect China trade totaling $463 billion in imports to the U.S. and $368 billion in imports to Europe.

How did a Confucian, anti-legalist country fare so well in an organization where English is the governing language and build such trade law capability? Largely thanks to the Ministry of Justice’s 2001 “Accelerating the Reform and Development of the Legal Profession after China’s Accession to the WTO,” which it noted, “Chinese lawyers are weak in handling international legal business, and China lack talents who can comfortably handle foreign legal services, and the lawyers’ competitive capacity in the international legal service market are weak.” Today most Chinese WTO scholars have graduated from elite law schools and the have overseas experience. Zhang Naigen at Fudan University studied WTO law for a year under Professor John Jackson at the UMichigan and was a visiting scholar at Columbia, George Washington and the Max Planck Institute of Comparative Public Law and International Law in Heidelberg. Zhang founded and directs the Center for Intellectual Property Study of international, domestic, and comparative intellectual property law and is Vice President of the Shanghai Society for Intellectual Property Law–which helped Shanghai to become a favored venue for international litigation.

Since WTO accession required China to participate in the The Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS), Chinese law firms have developed strong intellectual property practices and Chinese domestic courts often apply TRIPS in private cases. Although the Supreme People’s Court has vigorously rejected proposals that WTO law should be directly applicable before domestic courts it does suggest that, where possible, Chinese law should be interpreted to comply with WTO requirements and Chinese courts now reference WTO law in important decisions.

China has also made clever use of foreign lawyers to facilitate legal technology transfer. Huawei, with more than a hundred in-house counsel, hired famed international trade lawyer James Lockett, as its Vice-President and Head of Trade Facilitation and Market Access, for example. Lockett came from the U.S. Department of Commerce, had served as the Chairman of the American Chamber of Commerce in Brussels and been a lawyer for U.S. law firms in Brussels and Vietnam and was highly familiar with U.S. and E.U. regulatory systems. So strong is Huawei’s legal team that it has filed briefs at odds with the Chinese Government’s stated positions. China is a critical player in the WTO system–indeed, its strongest supporter–and a formidable and tenacious opponent of the U.S. and the E.U. It knows how the WTO works and does not hesitate to threaten litigation.

As China has begun shaping WTO jurisprudence to constrain the U.S. and E.U., U.S. and European perceptions of the WTO have changed but, since their proposed alternatives like the TPP and the TTIP have proven unattractive, they may be forced to retreat into bilateralism or participate in a world order shaped by China and designed to even the playing field for the majority of the world’s nations.

For those of the legal persuasion, I warmly recommend China’s Rise: How it Took On the U.S. at the WTO by Gregory Shaffer and Henry Gao, from which much of this post is derived. Their clearly written, generously footnoted legal howdunnit makes captivating reading.

 
• Category: Economics • Tags: China, Free Trade, WTO 
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  1. Issac says:

    China and the US/EU are entirely different entities. The former is a nation state, the latter are global market zones with porous and increasingly meaningless borders. The Chinese weaponized capital to the ends of the state. The West allowed capital to dictate the ends of the state.

    Read More
    • Replies: @animalogic
    "The Chinese weaponized capital to the ends of the state. The West allowed capital to dictate the ends of the state."
    You have put your finger on the essential difference between China (& to some extent Russia) & the West.
    China is a Nation, unified under a government which LEADS, PLANS & EXECUTES.
    The West on the other hand are entities, riven by Oligarchic factions, Deep State actors & cultural anarchy.
    To the extent that Western nations act in purposeful ways, is limited to the fundamentals of neoliberalism & neo-concervatisim. Such fundamentals are easy to spot: they're the silent elephant in the room.
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  2. Wow. What a well written, concise, informative article. Thought provoking.

    Thanks.

    One could just see by the way the Chines came out of nowhere to achieve first rank status in say, Olympic gymnastics, that they are capable of taking on the challenge of learning specifically Western standards of judging and mastering the requisite skills.

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    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    They call it 'mass mobilization'. Pretty formidable when you see it in action...
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  3. @ThreeCranes
    Wow. What a well written, concise, informative article. Thought provoking.

    Thanks.

    One could just see by the way the Chines came out of nowhere to achieve first rank status in say, Olympic gymnastics, that they are capable of taking on the challenge of learning specifically Western standards of judging and mastering the requisite skills.

    They call it ‘mass mobilization’. Pretty formidable when you see it in action…

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  4. chan sm says:

    Wow, this is explosive. China was forced to join the WTO under very restrictive conditions, alway played by the rules. The US, when it cannot compete, either change the rules or break the rules, or pulls out from the agreement.

    This also happened in sports. Table tennis where China was too dominant for too long, the European controlled ITTF changed the balls and the ranking system in 2018 relegating the Chinese world no 1 to world no 9. And in march 2018, the no 9 beat the German world no1.

    And all these while, US media, and idealogues like Navarro, and the politicians have been spreading fake news that China trade practices are ” unfair.”

    For example, always that China benefitted from the west opening up for China and never the other way round, that China opened up for western investment. And that China forced ” technology transfer.” If US companies do not like the domestic rules, just do not enter the Chinese market. China is not pointing a gun at their heads. But they are too greedy and drools at the huge chinese market.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CalDre
    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government. China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren't banned.

    This article is full of absurdities.


    American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain
     
    What official is that? The Orangutan? Please. He dances to the NutAndYahoo and the rest of the Tribe. His "heresy" is to amuse and befuddle the deplorables. Political theater, at its most spectacular.

    Even despite China constantly violating the WTO in every material respect, the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China, even though, as someone who was working with businesses making the move, everyone was well aware of China's blatant piracy. The ((bankers)) basically effected a massive wealth and capital (including technology, including know-how, blueprints and everything else needed to take over and continue the technological development) transfer from the West to China.

    It is these same ((bankers)) who have been behind Communism since its inception, in 1776, with Adam Weishaupt and the Order of the Illuminati.

    The ((bankers)) probably assumed that they had the ultimate power in China, as the Illuminati have generally been quite successful in maintaining their grasp on power in former British colonies. UK was always careful to set up effective control networks prior to withdrawing the troops.

    There is some sign that China has broken free from the grasp of the Illuminati, but, if it were actually true, China would be demonized as heavily as Russian and Iran, two countries that are far freer and democratic than China, and much less of a "threat".

    There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. These bankers have become successful over centuries, even an idiot knows not to do something so foolish and rash as to empower a real enemy. Theoretically, as a Communist Dictatorship, China should have been the enemy. But, again, the ((bankers)) never treated it as such, nor do they now.

    , @Vidi

    The US, when it cannot compete, either change the rules or break the rules, or pulls out from the agreement.

    This also happened in sports. Table tennis where China was too dominant for too long, the European controlled ITTF changed the balls and the ranking system in 2018 relegating the Chinese world no 1 to world no 9. And in march 2018, the no 9 beat the German world no1.
     
    The rigging of the rules at China's expense: remember how Yang Chang-Kwan was robbed of his decathlon title by a change in the scoring system only weeks before the 1964 Olympics? Yang was undoubtedly the most likely winner, having nearly won in the previous Olympics, and having just set a world record a few months before, in mid 1963. So the rigging of the scoring rules was aimed at him, without a doubt.

    The U.S. will probably try to steal the World Cup from Russia, but it's too late.
    , @Joe Wong
    In badminton too, when China took all medals in all categories, the gweilo controlled BWF changed rules and restricted Chinese players can compete in the Olympics.
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  5. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:

    “I agree with your view of the WTO’s history but this is a game we can win”.

    Not every Chinese as optimistic and confident as he was. There were many naysayers in the Chinese government and academia as they truly believed China wasn’t ready to compete. The transition certainly wasn’t painless – many state owned enterprises were forced to close or downsize; millions lost their jobs.

    I know a couple who lost their jobs at about the same time from state owned businesses. Their employment options were limited. At that time their local government offered small business startup loan for those who lost their jobs, so they decided to open a small eatery in which they served hand-made dumplings and noodle with their small savings and a low interest loan from the government. For the first two years they worked 16 hours a day and 7 days a week just to survive. Now they own four restaurants and made enough money to send their only child to study in the US.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    Oh God. That makes the Chinese even more formidable...
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  6. @Anonymous

    “I agree with your view of the WTO’s history but this is a game we can win”.
     
    Not every Chinese as optimistic and confident as he was. There were many naysayers in the Chinese government and academia as they truly believed China wasn't ready to compete. The transition certainly wasn't painless - many state owned enterprises were forced to close or downsize; millions lost their jobs.

    I know a couple who lost their jobs at about the same time from state owned businesses. Their employment options were limited. At that time their local government offered small business startup loan for those who lost their jobs, so they decided to open a small eatery in which they served hand-made dumplings and noodle with their small savings and a low interest loan from the government. For the first two years they worked 16 hours a day and 7 days a week just to survive. Now they own four restaurants and made enough money to send their only child to study in the US.

    Oh God. That makes the Chinese even more formidable…

    Read More
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  7. “Confucian, anti-legalist”?

    You should mix around more. The people giving you info are giving you a rather incomplete picture.

    They seem to have left out the Han Fei “groups” contributions if the result is that you would describe China as such.

    Han Fei ranks up there with the Qin Emperor in laying down the foundations that no suceeding government has in practise repudiated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    No one except Qin wants to admit to using Legalism, but just about every government in China uses it. But I guarantee that except for a few fringe people, you'll never get a government official who happily says "I am a Legalist!" like the way many would agree with "I am a Confucian!"

    Han Fei, though, truly a great man. And appropriate, perhaps, for the originator of such a bitter philosophy had a bitter life. I've heard him called the first realist politician, and I think its arguable that he deserves the title.

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  8. CalDre says:
    @chan sm
    Wow, this is explosive. China was forced to join the WTO under very restrictive conditions, alway played by the rules. The US, when it cannot compete, either change the rules or break the rules, or pulls out from the agreement.

    This also happened in sports. Table tennis where China was too dominant for too long, the European controlled ITTF changed the balls and the ranking system in 2018 relegating the Chinese world no 1 to world no 9. And in march 2018, the no 9 beat the German world no1.

    And all these while, US media, and idealogues like Navarro, and the politicians have been spreading fake news that China trade practices are " unfair."

    For example, always that China benefitted from the west opening up for China and never the other way round, that China opened up for western investment. And that China forced " technology transfer." If US companies do not like the domestic rules, just do not enter the Chinese market. China is not pointing a gun at their heads. But they are too greedy and drools at the huge chinese market.

    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government. China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren’t banned.

    This article is full of absurdities.

    American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain

    What official is that? The Orangutan? Please. He dances to the NutAndYahoo and the rest of the Tribe. His “heresy” is to amuse and befuddle the deplorables. Political theater, at its most spectacular.

    Even despite China constantly violating the WTO in every material respect, the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China, even though, as someone who was working with businesses making the move, everyone was well aware of China’s blatant piracy. The ((bankers)) basically effected a massive wealth and capital (including technology, including know-how, blueprints and everything else needed to take over and continue the technological development) transfer from the West to China.

    It is these same ((bankers)) who have been behind Communism since its inception, in 1776, with Adam Weishaupt and the Order of the Illuminati.

    The ((bankers)) probably assumed that they had the ultimate power in China, as the Illuminati have generally been quite successful in maintaining their grasp on power in former British colonies. UK was always careful to set up effective control networks prior to withdrawing the troops.

    There is some sign that China has broken free from the grasp of the Illuminati, but, if it were actually true, China would be demonized as heavily as Russian and Iran, two countries that are far freer and democratic than China, and much less of a “threat”.

    There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. These bankers have become successful over centuries, even an idiot knows not to do something so foolish and rash as to empower a real enemy. Theoretically, as a Communist Dictatorship, China should have been the enemy. But, again, the ((bankers)) never treated it as such, nor do they now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @animalogic
    "There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. "
    Tempting as your hypothesis is, have my doubt's. Why ?
    Banks, - & the FIRE sector generally are hoisted on their own petard of short term profits & share price inflation.
    Any kind of attack on US labor by Co's usually results in immediate stock price rises (purely coincidentally, upper executive renumeration is closely linked to such increases).
    And - let's face it - large Co's have been borrowing money for years now at ridiculously low rates.
    China (& other nations) have been an absolute bonanza for most US / Western Co's.
    All the problems mentioned above ....? A cost of doing business many have been happy to "wear" so long as it suited them.
    , @gT
    Yep, China is part and parcel of the NeoCon One World Government agenda. China has definitely delivered on the first part of the NeoCon plan, the Western nations, especially America, are weakened and ready to crash. Once they crash then the various Western nation states will be no more and the One World Government will arise.

    But what about the second part of the NeoCon plan: Russia? Certainly the One World Government can't arise with Russia still being there. I think China is also supposed to sort out Russia, after all, China has attacked Russia with the Sino Soviet border dispute in 1969 already. And it was only after that border clash that Kissinger visited China in 1971 and then the transfer of technology and production from the West to China started.

    Certainly the NeoCons will be ecstatic if China and Russia sort each other out just when the West crashes, then they will be able to rule the whole planet unopposed.

    Meanwhile your average cocky Chinaman cannot see that China has been faithfully following the (((NeoCon))) plan to a tee. But leaving Russia intact while the long planned for Western (especially American) crash happens will not suit the NeoCon agenda.
    , @Vidi

    China never, ever played by the rules.
     
    If China's always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn't she lose more cases in the tribunal?

    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn't robbed blind. I would call that poetic justice.

    , @Anonymous


    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government.
     
    This is incorrect in its whole - wholly foreign owned companies are allowed for export goods and much more generally so in special economic regions. Joint ventures do generally encourage technology transfer, but its usually a matter of negotiation more than anything else.

    China certainly games the system - and for that matter so does everyone else, but the idea that it just ignores the rules is silly. Given that the rules were setup more or less to exploit China, its pretty interesting that they were turned on its head.
    , @Joe Wong
    Whose rule are you talking about? Your rule or WTO's rule. American rule is bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated allegation as humanitarian intervention. The American has only one rule that is making up on the go and claiming credit where credit is not due.

    This article shows the American and EU are losing in the courts based on the WTO's rules they set up themselves.

    If the American does not ban Chinese merges and acquisitions in the USA, then China will not retaliate against the USA by restricting USA certain businesses in China. All other nations have their equal treatments in China and own businesses in China. You should know the unequal treaty era is over, USA must respect international laws and rules like everybody else. USA needs to allow China access the USA market freely and fairly in order to get equal treatment in China, yelling fake news like a spoil kid will not get the USA exempt for Chinese laws and rules as well as international laws and rules.

    You should know trolling old days of colonialism slogans and spewing out zero-sum cold war rhetoric do not work in this globalized free trade market, following WTO rules is the only way to gain markets successfully. USA needs to learn obey laws and rules, its mafia behavior is harmful not only to itself but also to the international law and order.
    , @TT
    It seem you are utterly ignorant in business trade that you are ranting so much with unsubstantiated facts. I truly doubt you ever visited China, let alone been in trade line or ever trade with China.

    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government.
     
    WTO is a English based rules body writen by West all to Anglo-American advantage, what rule do you still want, in Chinese? Its US & EU refusing to play by rule now to give China economy market as agreed.

    Every country can imposed its own domestic rules, its different from trade & tariff import/export fairness. Didn't US blocked most acquisition of China on security reason?

    Malaysia also required majority Malays ownership, so are many countries, all setting limitation on various sector for protection. WTO allowed different countries to adjust within a time frame. But China got the worst restriction by WTO unfair rules as this article rightly pointed out.

    How is IP stolen wholesale frequently by gov? Give example & evidence. Every developing country also embarked on similar path, Jp, Korea, Taiwan & Asean too, by copying first, then developing, finally innovate. Only when China find protecting IP is to its advantage like the developed countries with plenty of patents will it find incentive to prosecute infringement diligently, which is happening now.

    China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren’t banned.
     
    Give example what China has banned entire categories of goods?

    Do you understand what is currency manipulating for trade advantage & tariff? You simply has no basic knowledge.

    When a currency is weaken, it helps their export cheaper and competitive. This also help local companies report higher profits in domestic currency. But import become expensive in USD exch rate term, such as raw materials & oil importing. Every country is doing that to their best advantage.

    Only US hedgmon mantra is do what i say, not what i do. US is the apex in currency manipulating with UK, Oz. If they go to war required much procurement, it simply raise its value to buy cheap, swinging up to 30% or more by their financial dominating role. When it wants to compete, it drop free fall. IMF has been long complaining Japan is manipulating Yen.

    Pls enlighten me how weakening a currency can erect large tariffs for China import to get advantage?

    the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China
     
    You are talking without slightest basic knowledge. US has been in bottom of FDI to China for past few decades, blocking most investment in both ways and erect embargo on technology strictly. Top few FDI has always been consistently HK, Spore, Taiwan, Asia.... making the lion share of over 60~80%. Pls get yourself educate.

    In 1990's, i had a few inches thick booklet from US trade Ministry to comply for exporting to China, from obsolete 286 PC to cell phone and anything with slight modern technology were banned. This embargo applied globally, any company caught exporting to a long list of banned countries(incl China, Iran, India,...) will be denied US market access. Till today, US is still all way out to block China access to every high technology.

    It is your capitalists greed that hollow out US manufacturing to exploit China cheap labour & slack pollution control hence low energy cost with coal power. Cheaper cost hence higher profits when imported back for US market, thus the high trade deficit that Trumps is blaming stupidly.

    US has always collaborated with EU & Japan from start to block China access to all technoloy. But China market is so huge with its rapid growth, EU & Jp have been unable to resist to sell whatever they could to prop their sluggish economy.

    Still China is blocked from accessing the higher technology, such as high end semiconductor & fab. That's why China decided to produce the entire supply & manufacturing chain themselves to be independent from US threat(eg. Blockage of Intel CPU, Quadcom chip use by all smart phone).

    The momentum of China rise has already reach a level of no turning back. Don't whine & blame foolishly.

    India is now getting all the West & Jp FDI, free technology transfer, even nuclear, military, steel industry, car industry, everything India wish so to counter China, but have you see a successful India like China? No, why?

    So are many countries like EU, Mexico, Latin America, ME & Asia getting complete free access to capital, technology & market are doing badly, eg Greece, Spain, Italy,...only Germany is stella. There are more factors than you imagine.
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  9. America as a country is one big idiot. American elites which were supposed to be USA brain were thinking they can win trading game with one of the history greatest trading nations and now they think they can win hot war against one of the history best fighting nation Russia. It is what being protected by geographical location and very weak neighbors and never suffering form real interstate competition leads to.
    The funniest thing is that without USA transferring technologies and investments and most favorable status to China, China would have never reached this level as Chinese are traders not industries builders which their failed attempts at industrialization under Mao showed . They needed something to base their abilities on and they got it for a song.

    Read More
    • Replies: @myself

    China would have never reached this level as Chinese are traders not industries builders.
     
    Americans were considered hunters and farmers, not industry-builders until 1830. Europeans (British, French, Dutch) always looked down on us.

    But then we took Europe's knowledge, money and guidance and caught up with them, then later surpassed them. It took a long time, but the American race improved.

    You cannot say a race is not a "natural" something. "Not naturally good at trading, not naturally good at fighting, not naturally good at science and technology, not good at industry." Races and countries evolve and change over time.

    If you can fight, then you are a fighter. If you can build industry, then you are a builder of industry.

    It does not matter how you get there. The important thing is - you get there. Chinese and also Russians know this.
    , @Joe Wong
    Your jealousy, resentment and fear of Chinese achievements is glaring. If Chinese is not industry builder then no matter what you give them they will not be able to build industries because the aptitude and gene need to build industry are simply not there, does it make sense to you? Your bigotry put a lot of doubt into the perception that German people is logical and rational.

    Even look at the West, they got started ahead by stealing technologies from the East without paying IP fees, then expanded their technology lead by looting, plundering, wars, selling Opium, and all kind of beggar-thy-neighbour methodologies; how can they are falling behind when Chinese found its footing and starts out competing the West if Chinese is not industrialistic as well as prudent in commerce?

    You should know British could not sell anything they made to China after the industrial revolution, because their products were too coarse and limited in quantity, British could not match Chinese industries before Opium Wars. The British resorted to use Opium and wars to destroy Chinese industries so they could build their empire by flooding Chinese market with their inferior products.
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  10. Aren’t you a white man?

    Why don’t you take your own side?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Colleen Pater
    If you're asking serge my guess would be because all the other whites men have been treating russia like niggers at least since crimea siding with actual niggers against them in that war, a few ago a jungle nigger we elected president decided to push russia a white christian nation into the arms of what ought to have been its mortal enemy china. so the real question is why are white nations not siding with russia.could it be white nations are not run by whites?
    , @gT
    These days so many whites seem so ashamed of their own race that they truly believe that salvation emanates forth from the rear end of a Chinaman. Like its any different from the stuff which comes out of their own rear end.
    , @Joe Wong
    The White is doomed, even someone is courage enough to bring in the bad news as a wake up call, the White demonizes him blindly. The White is behaving like the society during the dying days of Manchu Qing dynasty.
    , @neutral

    Aren’t you a white man?

    Why don’t you take your own side?
     
    I am pro white, however the US and EU are not pro white, they are in fact virulently anti white regimes. The Chinese regime have never called for the demise of my race, the US and EU are now openly practicing this ideology. Tell me again why I should support China over the anti white regimes?
    , @Vidi

    Aren’t you a white man?

    Why don’t you take your own side?
     
    I'm not Godfree, whom you are probably addressing, but I'll take a stab at answering your frankly racist question.

    Godfree might be a white man, but perhaps he wants fairness and justice done. These two qualities are important if the human race is to last much longer.
    , @TT
    You should be grateful that there are still sane whites like Godfrey around to tell you the Hard Truths.

    If you still yearn to live in all sinophobe nonsense & lies your msm sewage feed you that backward China is gonna collapse in its debt, then be prepared for your real sorry state(well, its already happened in West, too late). But at least you can still prepare yourself or children to learn Mandarine for better job in Chinese era.

    Its the same deluded hubris that make mighty USM fall behind Russia military now.

    Buried your head in the sand, your ass is guaranteed exposed.
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  11. @Issac
    China and the US/EU are entirely different entities. The former is a nation state, the latter are global market zones with porous and increasingly meaningless borders. The Chinese weaponized capital to the ends of the state. The West allowed capital to dictate the ends of the state.

    “The Chinese weaponized capital to the ends of the state. The West allowed capital to dictate the ends of the state.”
    You have put your finger on the essential difference between China (& to some extent Russia) & the West.
    China is a Nation, unified under a government which LEADS, PLANS & EXECUTES.
    The West on the other hand are entities, riven by Oligarchic factions, Deep State actors & cultural anarchy.
    To the extent that Western nations act in purposeful ways, is limited to the fundamentals of neoliberalism & neo-concervatisim. Such fundamentals are easy to spot: they’re the silent elephant in the room.

    Read More
    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh


    China is a Nation, unified under a government which LEADS, PLANS & EXECUTES.
    The West on the other hand are entities, riven by Oligarchic factions, Deep State actors & cultural anarchy.
     
    Incorrect.

    China is a nation of mostly semi-competent technocrats who manage a morass of "plans" which somehow manage to add value, after a lot of duct-taping and stumbling.*

    The West these days has basically turned into constant autistic screeching.

    In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. But he's still one-eyed.

    *The ghost cities really are a great example of that - the truth is that they were the result of overproduction, made by local officials who needed to paid GDP numbers. But what was done was done, and afterward the government found a way to make them useful. The idea that it was all a harmonious perfect plan is hilarious, though. Its still better than wasting the money to bomb camels and donkeys.
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  12. @CalDre
    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government. China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren't banned.

    This article is full of absurdities.


    American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain
     
    What official is that? The Orangutan? Please. He dances to the NutAndYahoo and the rest of the Tribe. His "heresy" is to amuse and befuddle the deplorables. Political theater, at its most spectacular.

    Even despite China constantly violating the WTO in every material respect, the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China, even though, as someone who was working with businesses making the move, everyone was well aware of China's blatant piracy. The ((bankers)) basically effected a massive wealth and capital (including technology, including know-how, blueprints and everything else needed to take over and continue the technological development) transfer from the West to China.

    It is these same ((bankers)) who have been behind Communism since its inception, in 1776, with Adam Weishaupt and the Order of the Illuminati.

    The ((bankers)) probably assumed that they had the ultimate power in China, as the Illuminati have generally been quite successful in maintaining their grasp on power in former British colonies. UK was always careful to set up effective control networks prior to withdrawing the troops.

    There is some sign that China has broken free from the grasp of the Illuminati, but, if it were actually true, China would be demonized as heavily as Russian and Iran, two countries that are far freer and democratic than China, and much less of a "threat".

    There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. These bankers have become successful over centuries, even an idiot knows not to do something so foolish and rash as to empower a real enemy. Theoretically, as a Communist Dictatorship, China should have been the enemy. But, again, the ((bankers)) never treated it as such, nor do they now.

    “There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. ”
    Tempting as your hypothesis is, have my doubt’s. Why ?
    Banks, – & the FIRE sector generally are hoisted on their own petard of short term profits & share price inflation.
    Any kind of attack on US labor by Co’s usually results in immediate stock price rises (purely coincidentally, upper executive renumeration is closely linked to such increases).
    And – let’s face it – large Co’s have been borrowing money for years now at ridiculously low rates.
    China (& other nations) have been an absolute bonanza for most US / Western Co’s.
    All the problems mentioned above ….? A cost of doing business many have been happy to “wear” so long as it suited them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CalDre
    No, the ((bankers)) I'm talking about don't work that way. They think much more long term. Centuries even. They are the actual chess players.

    But nonetheless, assume the banksters were short-sighted greedy. Why did the US government allow them to move US technology overseas? Do you think they would allow all the top-tech US companies to move their technology to Russia, for example? No, of course not, they put sanctions instead. Even though lots of money could be made in Russia, or Iran even. Not only did US permit US corporations moving high tech to China, they gave huge tax breaks for it, i.e., encouraged it.
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  13. @Thorfinnsson
    Aren't you a white man?

    Why don't you take your own side?

    If you’re asking serge my guess would be because all the other whites men have been treating russia like niggers at least since crimea siding with actual niggers against them in that war, a few ago a jungle nigger we elected president decided to push russia a white christian nation into the arms of what ought to have been its mortal enemy china. so the real question is why are white nations not siding with russia.could it be white nations are not run by whites?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I don't disagree with you.

    But Godfree Roberts' hero worship of the Chinese is weird and disturbing.

    It's likely too late to stop China now, but we don't need to pretend to like the fact that they're en route to #1.
    , @anonymous
    Argh!! Can't you deplorables get yourselves some education?
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  14. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:

    What is the story on how the. Chinese profited on barbarian tributes? What did they gain from this arrangement?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    After they received their bribes, the barbarians insisted on year-round trading rights w China which, after weakly protesting, the Chinese granted. They then proceeded to win back, in profit, more than the value of the tribute they'd paid.

    Sound familiar?
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  15. Excellent and informative article but I’m not sure there’s any “even[ing] the playing field” about international trade. The participants. if they’re smart, seek to extract the most value from negotiations like any negotiations. The “developed” nations (US/EU) agree to lower tariffs because they need cheap imports to maintain the value of their debts. It’s a bizarre and probably unsustainable dynamic.

    China’s right-side distribution is smart, understands math, and is loyal to the Chinese nation-state. What other country on earth arranges small business purchases for lowly citizen-employees displaced by international trade? This is a game they will win.

    Read More
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  16. CalDre says:
    @animalogic
    "There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. "
    Tempting as your hypothesis is, have my doubt's. Why ?
    Banks, - & the FIRE sector generally are hoisted on their own petard of short term profits & share price inflation.
    Any kind of attack on US labor by Co's usually results in immediate stock price rises (purely coincidentally, upper executive renumeration is closely linked to such increases).
    And - let's face it - large Co's have been borrowing money for years now at ridiculously low rates.
    China (& other nations) have been an absolute bonanza for most US / Western Co's.
    All the problems mentioned above ....? A cost of doing business many have been happy to "wear" so long as it suited them.

    No, the ((bankers)) I’m talking about don’t work that way. They think much more long term. Centuries even. They are the actual chess players.

    But nonetheless, assume the banksters were short-sighted greedy. Why did the US government allow them to move US technology overseas? Do you think they would allow all the top-tech US companies to move their technology to Russia, for example? No, of course not, they put sanctions instead. Even though lots of money could be made in Russia, or Iran even. Not only did US permit US corporations moving high tech to China, they gave huge tax breaks for it, i.e., encouraged it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bluedog
    Of course they moved it to China(American business) and the reason was nothing but greed, and as far as the bankers or American business interest they are very short sited when the profits at stake that's why Japan and now China is arising while we are circling the drain ,waiting for only one more flush....
    , @Joe Wong
    Your rant is getting out of hand; the American banned every Chinese investment in the US on the ground of national security, and the American imposed most severe sanctions and embargo on China. The Americans even ban their inferior technology to China while import superior technology from China shamelessly. In addition the United States is a minor player in Chinese foreign trade. The only thing American is good at is big mouth loose cannon that always claims credit where credit is not due.
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  17. @Colleen Pater
    If you're asking serge my guess would be because all the other whites men have been treating russia like niggers at least since crimea siding with actual niggers against them in that war, a few ago a jungle nigger we elected president decided to push russia a white christian nation into the arms of what ought to have been its mortal enemy china. so the real question is why are white nations not siding with russia.could it be white nations are not run by whites?

    I don’t disagree with you.

    But Godfree Roberts’ hero worship of the Chinese is weird and disturbing.

    It’s likely too late to stop China now, but we don’t need to pretend to like the fact that they’re en route to #1.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Colleen Pater
    It is disturbing the chinese are going to be a million times a bigger problem than the jews. because they have the same IQ edge and the same natural tribalism as the rest of the races, but they are a million times bigger than the jews and are operating from a real nation state.But i took the article as more of a warning than anything
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  18. fnn says:
    Read More
    • Replies: @TT
    From what i read if correct, under Pres Xi & his team seem to recognize & have good vision for some global problems, with aggressive state policies on:

    1. Organic farming with state subsidy to encourage farmers switching from unsustainable commercial farming that pollute land & water. (50% of global pesticides & Monsanto weed killers are sprayed in China. 60% of their staple food is Monsanto GMO or foreign imported. Chemical Fertilizers abusing is ruined agri land.)

    2. Reforestation in massive scale under state program.

    3. Greenify deserts with plantation using newly innovated methods. They pour some sticky gel on desert sands to make it like soil, so water can retain & plants grown successfully.

    4. Pollution reduction program at most impressive rate according to some articles, achieving what US took 10yrs with economy declination to get.

    5. World most aggressive renewal green energy policies, world largest hydropower, solar, wind energy, natural burning coal pits thermal tapping, EV, largest dev of pebble nuclear power plants(green?)..

    6. Extensive protection of extinct risk animals & creatures. Even preventing hunters from setting nets to catch migrating birds in recent news i read.
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  19. I have instinctive sympathy for those whose informed approach to a subject might be characterised as a product of eccentric individualism. But now that I have found out a bit more about the author online, including in Quora, i suspect that the Sage of Chiang Mai suffers from too few people around to contradict him and a tendency to shout so everyone knows that this chap waggling his ears to grab the visitor’s attention really has a lot of interesting and important inside knowledge to purvey. Which may be true, but….. He is an Australian (or was brought up in Oz) , living in Thailand (because he went broke in the US) which surprises me only because it is his apparent ignorance of the nuts and bolts of Australian politics that made me assume he was American when criticising his overstatements on a subject I know a lot more about than he. Still, not all bad, he picked up on Kevin Rudd’s defects of character and as PM. On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    What a load of ad hominem crap that an ex-convict can spew.
    , @Escher
    Interesting that he lives in Thailand and not in the land that he idolizes.
    , @Godfree Roberts
    Profoundly insightful, an almost invaluable contribution to this discussion on the WTO.
    , @TT

    On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.
     
    While we don't know what happens between your encounter with Mr Roberts that make you commented on his credibility as doubtful, do you have any to share on what he has writen so far in unz about China that you think is not factual or doubtful to say he has starry eye?

    So far i have find his articles & comments are quite factual with reference sources without putting in too much personal judgement. That make him one of most credible writer in unz.
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  20. myself says:
    @Sergey Krieger
    America as a country is one big idiot. American elites which were supposed to be USA brain were thinking they can win trading game with one of the history greatest trading nations and now they think they can win hot war against one of the history best fighting nation Russia. It is what being protected by geographical location and very weak neighbors and never suffering form real interstate competition leads to.
    The funniest thing is that without USA transferring technologies and investments and most favorable status to China, China would have never reached this level as Chinese are traders not industries builders which their failed attempts at industrialization under Mao showed . They needed something to base their abilities on and they got it for a song.

    China would have never reached this level as Chinese are traders not industries builders.

    Americans were considered hunters and farmers, not industry-builders until 1830. Europeans (British, French, Dutch) always looked down on us.

    But then we took Europe’s knowledge, money and guidance and caught up with them, then later surpassed them. It took a long time, but the American race improved.

    You cannot say a race is not a “natural” something. “Not naturally good at trading, not naturally good at fighting, not naturally good at science and technology, not good at industry.” Races and countries evolve and change over time.

    If you can fight, then you are a fighter. If you can build industry, then you are a builder of industry.

    It does not matter how you get there. The important thing is – you get there. Chinese and also Russians know this.

    Read More
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  21. Anonymous[408] • Disclaimer says:

    Wow, “Godfree Roberts” must have earned a really high “social credit” score with this one. The Beijing Borg must love this guy.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-02/welcome-xi-jinpings-orwellian-dystopia

    Read More
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  22. bluedog says:
    @CalDre
    No, the ((bankers)) I'm talking about don't work that way. They think much more long term. Centuries even. They are the actual chess players.

    But nonetheless, assume the banksters were short-sighted greedy. Why did the US government allow them to move US technology overseas? Do you think they would allow all the top-tech US companies to move their technology to Russia, for example? No, of course not, they put sanctions instead. Even though lots of money could be made in Russia, or Iran even. Not only did US permit US corporations moving high tech to China, they gave huge tax breaks for it, i.e., encouraged it.

    Of course they moved it to China(American business) and the reason was nothing but greed, and as far as the bankers or American business interest they are very short sited when the profits at stake that’s why Japan and now China is arising while we are circling the drain ,waiting for only one more flush….

    Read More
    • Replies: @CalDre
    Yes you can call it short-sighted greed all you want, but you have not refuted my points. Having a simplistic assumption and refusing to consider alternatives leaves you simply with a simplistic assumption.

    Having been involved "behind the scenes" in these decisions at least from my experience simple greed is not the explanation. Just as a simple thought experiment, the US could have not permitted China to join the WTO in the first place. Thereafter, the US could have sanctioned China at any time, could do so now.
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  23. Sean says:

    http://www.unz.com/efingleton/north-korea-why-trump-should-kims-feet-to-the-fire/

    Repeatedly since the Clinton era, it has cramped Washington’s style on international trade, for instance. And trade, of course, is absolutely central to the new administration’s program.

    It is fair to say that all the more important East Asian nations have a vested interest in exaggerating the North Korean threat. The more terrifying North Korea is made to appear, the more desperately Washington will seek out advice and help from China, Japan, and South Korea. That tends to ensure that trade talks with these mercantilist nations are consigned to the backburner.

    Moreover at times of tension, Pentagon officials inevitably take charge. As the East Asians have gleefully realized for generations, the Pentagon is a remarkably soft touch on trade, and in return for the merest hortatory support for its military objectives will pull the rug from under the most carefully conceived plans drawn up elsewhere in Washington to get East Asia to open up.

    The key to Trump’s strategy is China – or at least it should be. By propping up North Korea, China is heavily complicit in the present standoff. It is past time China was called to account.

    People scoffed when I suggested that North Korea was being used as a cat’s paw by merchantilist China against the West especially the US. Even though China is known to have given missile technology to Pakistan (which also managed to produce a nuke). ‘Oh that can’t be true China is an enemy of Kim’, everyone said.

    http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2139925/kim-jong-un-and-xi-jinping-take-centre-stage-diplomatic

    In the long term, the Chinese defeat of the US in Korea has paid huge dividends, now they can use their tame bad boy to hollow out the US and the rest of the West economically.

    Read More
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  24. Joe Wong says:
    @Sergey Krieger
    America as a country is one big idiot. American elites which were supposed to be USA brain were thinking they can win trading game with one of the history greatest trading nations and now they think they can win hot war against one of the history best fighting nation Russia. It is what being protected by geographical location and very weak neighbors and never suffering form real interstate competition leads to.
    The funniest thing is that without USA transferring technologies and investments and most favorable status to China, China would have never reached this level as Chinese are traders not industries builders which their failed attempts at industrialization under Mao showed . They needed something to base their abilities on and they got it for a song.

    Your jealousy, resentment and fear of Chinese achievements is glaring. If Chinese is not industry builder then no matter what you give them they will not be able to build industries because the aptitude and gene need to build industry are simply not there, does it make sense to you? Your bigotry put a lot of doubt into the perception that German people is logical and rational.

    Even look at the West, they got started ahead by stealing technologies from the East without paying IP fees, then expanded their technology lead by looting, plundering, wars, selling Opium, and all kind of beggar-thy-neighbour methodologies; how can they are falling behind when Chinese found its footing and starts out competing the West if Chinese is not industrialistic as well as prudent in commerce?

    You should know British could not sell anything they made to China after the industrial revolution, because their products were too coarse and limited in quantity, British could not match Chinese industries before Opium Wars. The British resorted to use Opium and wars to destroy Chinese industries so they could build their empire by flooding Chinese market with their inferior products.

    Read More
    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @ThatDamnGood
    Go look up on why Russian jet engines smoked in the past and why they stopped emitting smoke, hehehe
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  25. gT says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Aren't you a white man?

    Why don't you take your own side?

    These days so many whites seem so ashamed of their own race that they truly believe that salvation emanates forth from the rear end of a Chinaman. Like its any different from the stuff which comes out of their own rear end.

    Read More
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  26. Joe Wong says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Aren't you a white man?

    Why don't you take your own side?

    The White is doomed, even someone is courage enough to bring in the bad news as a wake up call, the White demonizes him blindly. The White is behaving like the society during the dying days of Manchu Qing dynasty.

    Read More
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  27. gT says:
    @CalDre
    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government. China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren't banned.

    This article is full of absurdities.


    American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain
     
    What official is that? The Orangutan? Please. He dances to the NutAndYahoo and the rest of the Tribe. His "heresy" is to amuse and befuddle the deplorables. Political theater, at its most spectacular.

    Even despite China constantly violating the WTO in every material respect, the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China, even though, as someone who was working with businesses making the move, everyone was well aware of China's blatant piracy. The ((bankers)) basically effected a massive wealth and capital (including technology, including know-how, blueprints and everything else needed to take over and continue the technological development) transfer from the West to China.

    It is these same ((bankers)) who have been behind Communism since its inception, in 1776, with Adam Weishaupt and the Order of the Illuminati.

    The ((bankers)) probably assumed that they had the ultimate power in China, as the Illuminati have generally been quite successful in maintaining their grasp on power in former British colonies. UK was always careful to set up effective control networks prior to withdrawing the troops.

    There is some sign that China has broken free from the grasp of the Illuminati, but, if it were actually true, China would be demonized as heavily as Russian and Iran, two countries that are far freer and democratic than China, and much less of a "threat".

    There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. These bankers have become successful over centuries, even an idiot knows not to do something so foolish and rash as to empower a real enemy. Theoretically, as a Communist Dictatorship, China should have been the enemy. But, again, the ((bankers)) never treated it as such, nor do they now.

    Yep, China is part and parcel of the NeoCon One World Government agenda. China has definitely delivered on the first part of the NeoCon plan, the Western nations, especially America, are weakened and ready to crash. Once they crash then the various Western nation states will be no more and the One World Government will arise.

    But what about the second part of the NeoCon plan: Russia? Certainly the One World Government can’t arise with Russia still being there. I think China is also supposed to sort out Russia, after all, China has attacked Russia with the Sino Soviet border dispute in 1969 already. And it was only after that border clash that Kissinger visited China in 1971 and then the transfer of technology and production from the West to China started.

    Certainly the NeoCons will be ecstatic if China and Russia sort each other out just when the West crashes, then they will be able to rule the whole planet unopposed.

    Meanwhile your average cocky Chinaman cannot see that China has been faithfully following the (((NeoCon))) plan to a tee. But leaving Russia intact while the long planned for Western (especially American) crash happens will not suit the NeoCon agenda.

    Read More
    • Agree: CalDre
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  28. anonymous[232] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colleen Pater
    If you're asking serge my guess would be because all the other whites men have been treating russia like niggers at least since crimea siding with actual niggers against them in that war, a few ago a jungle nigger we elected president decided to push russia a white christian nation into the arms of what ought to have been its mortal enemy china. so the real question is why are white nations not siding with russia.could it be white nations are not run by whites?

    Argh!! Can’t you deplorables get yourselves some education?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Colleen Pater
    educate me because i have family photos from my english uncles of dead turks in trenches along side englishmen from crimea and who were they trying to kill white men.Just like when they went aftewr the germans just like when clinton bombed christian on easter sunday to keep muslims in europe and a thousand other examples.
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  29. neutral says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Aren't you a white man?

    Why don't you take your own side?

    Aren’t you a white man?

    Why don’t you take your own side?

    I am pro white, however the US and EU are not pro white, they are in fact virulently anti white regimes. The Chinese regime have never called for the demise of my race, the US and EU are now openly practicing this ideology. Tell me again why I should support China over the anti white regimes?

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  30. neutral says:

    The White is behaving like the society during the dying days of Manchu Qing dynasty.

    Oh its much MUCH worse than that, I am not an expert on the late Qing dynasty, but I am pretty sure that all the various factions fighting each other were not trying to end the Chinese people.

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  31. 1.4 Billion, intelligent, hard-working people are now growing into a modern, hi-tech nation.

    They will lead the world.

    Good luck to them

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    • Replies: @VolInPdx
    Well said.
    Good luck to them.
    I hope they lead better than US. The US shoulda taught them everything they need to know to not do.
    I wish them well and hope the world is a better place.
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  32. Joe Wong says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I have instinctive sympathy for those whose informed approach to a subject might be characterised as a product of eccentric individualism. But now that I have found out a bit more about the author online, including in Quora, i suspect that the Sage of Chiang Mai suffers from too few people around to contradict him and a tendency to shout so everyone knows that this chap waggling his ears to grab the visitor's attention really has a lot of interesting and important inside knowledge to purvey. Which may be true, but..... He is an Australian (or was brought up in Oz) , living in Thailand (because he went broke in the US) which surprises me only because it is his apparent ignorance of the nuts and bolts of Australian politics that made me assume he was American when criticising his overstatements on a subject I know a lot more about than he. Still, not all bad, he picked up on Kevin Rudd's defects of character and as PM. On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.

    What a load of ad hominem crap that an ex-convict can spew.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    As usual you missed the point. (No wonder you lost your paid trolling contract. The Chinese employers you look to are of course very smart). My only point against him, and that only tentatively, was that I noticed he was Australian but fidn't know nearly as much about Australian politics as he claimed to. Thus some doubt was cast on his credibility.
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  33. Vidi says:
    @chan sm
    Wow, this is explosive. China was forced to join the WTO under very restrictive conditions, alway played by the rules. The US, when it cannot compete, either change the rules or break the rules, or pulls out from the agreement.

    This also happened in sports. Table tennis where China was too dominant for too long, the European controlled ITTF changed the balls and the ranking system in 2018 relegating the Chinese world no 1 to world no 9. And in march 2018, the no 9 beat the German world no1.

    And all these while, US media, and idealogues like Navarro, and the politicians have been spreading fake news that China trade practices are " unfair."

    For example, always that China benefitted from the west opening up for China and never the other way round, that China opened up for western investment. And that China forced " technology transfer." If US companies do not like the domestic rules, just do not enter the Chinese market. China is not pointing a gun at their heads. But they are too greedy and drools at the huge chinese market.

    The US, when it cannot compete, either change the rules or break the rules, or pulls out from the agreement.

    This also happened in sports. Table tennis where China was too dominant for too long, the European controlled ITTF changed the balls and the ranking system in 2018 relegating the Chinese world no 1 to world no 9. And in march 2018, the no 9 beat the German world no1.

    The rigging of the rules at China’s expense: remember how Yang Chang-Kwan was robbed of his decathlon title by a change in the scoring system only weeks before the 1964 Olympics? Yang was undoubtedly the most likely winner, having nearly won in the previous Olympics, and having just set a world record a few months before, in mid 1963. So the rigging of the scoring rules was aimed at him, without a doubt.

    The U.S. will probably try to steal the World Cup from Russia, but it’s too late.

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  34. Escher says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I have instinctive sympathy for those whose informed approach to a subject might be characterised as a product of eccentric individualism. But now that I have found out a bit more about the author online, including in Quora, i suspect that the Sage of Chiang Mai suffers from too few people around to contradict him and a tendency to shout so everyone knows that this chap waggling his ears to grab the visitor's attention really has a lot of interesting and important inside knowledge to purvey. Which may be true, but..... He is an Australian (or was brought up in Oz) , living in Thailand (because he went broke in the US) which surprises me only because it is his apparent ignorance of the nuts and bolts of Australian politics that made me assume he was American when criticising his overstatements on a subject I know a lot more about than he. Still, not all bad, he picked up on Kevin Rudd's defects of character and as PM. On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.

    Interesting that he lives in Thailand and not in the land that he idolizes.

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  35. Vidi says:
    @CalDre
    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government. China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren't banned.

    This article is full of absurdities.


    American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain
     
    What official is that? The Orangutan? Please. He dances to the NutAndYahoo and the rest of the Tribe. His "heresy" is to amuse and befuddle the deplorables. Political theater, at its most spectacular.

    Even despite China constantly violating the WTO in every material respect, the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China, even though, as someone who was working with businesses making the move, everyone was well aware of China's blatant piracy. The ((bankers)) basically effected a massive wealth and capital (including technology, including know-how, blueprints and everything else needed to take over and continue the technological development) transfer from the West to China.

    It is these same ((bankers)) who have been behind Communism since its inception, in 1776, with Adam Weishaupt and the Order of the Illuminati.

    The ((bankers)) probably assumed that they had the ultimate power in China, as the Illuminati have generally been quite successful in maintaining their grasp on power in former British colonies. UK was always careful to set up effective control networks prior to withdrawing the troops.

    There is some sign that China has broken free from the grasp of the Illuminati, but, if it were actually true, China would be demonized as heavily as Russian and Iran, two countries that are far freer and democratic than China, and much less of a "threat".

    There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. These bankers have become successful over centuries, even an idiot knows not to do something so foolish and rash as to empower a real enemy. Theoretically, as a Communist Dictatorship, China should have been the enemy. But, again, the ((bankers)) never treated it as such, nor do they now.

    China never, ever played by the rules.

    If China’s always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn’t she lose more cases in the tribunal?

    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn’t robbed blind. I would call that poetic justice.

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    • Replies: @CalDre

    If China’s always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn’t she lose more cases in the tribunal?
     
    For the precise reason I noted at the outset: it is all part of the Master Bankster Plan. Hence the cases are not brought. For example for many years the US could have invoked its currency manipulation rules, which is a major cause of the trade imbalance. Yet each ((Goldman Sachs)) banker, one after another, that ran the US treasury, refused to do so. (If it's not obvious from my parenthesis, ((Goldman Sachs)) bankers don't serve the US, but some other power, and aren't loyal to Americans, but to some other group.)

    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn’t robbed blind.
     
    Hugely unfair rules, really? Well let's think about that. And the best way to measure whether rules are fair is whether one side is better off under the rules than the other side. And mainly looking at the average person.

    On the one hand we have China in 1971 which could barely feed itself, had no cars or industry, had no tall buildings, was basically like India, and now is one of the richest countries on the planet. Compare pictures of Shangai or Beijing in 1971, 2001 and now. What is abundantly clear is that under the WTO arrangement, China has benefited magnificently. Now, compare the US, with its loss of jobs, hollowed out industry, and massive annual trade deficit, which has suffered massively as a result.

    So, the average Chinaman greatly benefited from the rules, and the average American greatly suffered. And these rules are "unfair to China"? You know sometimes just a simple reality check can help you wade through all the b.s. propaganda that fills the "news".
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  36. VolInPdx says:
    @John Kirby
    1.4 Billion, intelligent, hard-working people are now growing into a modern, hi-tech nation.

    They will lead the world.

    Good luck to them

    Well said.
    Good luck to them.
    I hope they lead better than US. The US shoulda taught them everything they need to know to not do.
    I wish them well and hope the world is a better place.

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  37. @animalogic
    "The Chinese weaponized capital to the ends of the state. The West allowed capital to dictate the ends of the state."
    You have put your finger on the essential difference between China (& to some extent Russia) & the West.
    China is a Nation, unified under a government which LEADS, PLANS & EXECUTES.
    The West on the other hand are entities, riven by Oligarchic factions, Deep State actors & cultural anarchy.
    To the extent that Western nations act in purposeful ways, is limited to the fundamentals of neoliberalism & neo-concervatisim. Such fundamentals are easy to spot: they're the silent elephant in the room.

    China is a Nation, unified under a government which LEADS, PLANS & EXECUTES.
    The West on the other hand are entities, riven by Oligarchic factions, Deep State actors & cultural anarchy.

    Incorrect.

    China is a nation of mostly semi-competent technocrats who manage a morass of “plans” which somehow manage to add value, after a lot of duct-taping and stumbling.*

    The West these days has basically turned into constant autistic screeching.

    In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. But he’s still one-eyed.

    *The ghost cities really are a great example of that – the truth is that they were the result of overproduction, made by local officials who needed to paid GDP numbers. But what was done was done, and afterward the government found a way to make them useful. The idea that it was all a harmonious perfect plan is hilarious, though. Its still better than wasting the money to bomb camels and donkeys.

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    • Agree: TT
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  38. @ThatDamnGood
    "Confucian, anti-legalist"?

    You should mix around more. The people giving you info are giving you a rather incomplete picture.

    They seem to have left out the Han Fei "groups" contributions if the result is that you would describe China as such.

    Han Fei ranks up there with the Qin Emperor in laying down the foundations that no suceeding government has in practise repudiated.

    No one except Qin wants to admit to using Legalism, but just about every government in China uses it. But I guarantee that except for a few fringe people, you’ll never get a government official who happily says “I am a Legalist!” like the way many would agree with “I am a Confucian!”

    Han Fei, though, truly a great man. And appropriate, perhaps, for the originator of such a bitter philosophy had a bitter life. I’ve heard him called the first realist politician, and I think its arguable that he deserves the title.

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    • Replies: @ThatDamnGood
    And to add, this from wiki,

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Fei

    "Despite its outcast status throughout the history of imperial China, his political theory continued to heavily influence every dynasty thereafter, and the Confucian ideal of a rule without laws was never again realised. Shu Han's chancellor Zhuge Liang demanded emperor Liu Shan read the Han Feizi for learning the way of ruling."

    Not all scholar types were Confucian or Rujia and in those non Rujia circles, Hanfei is not a pariah. So how much an outcast can he be when someone like Zhuge Liang gives him the nod? It all depends on the"circle" in question.
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  39. Anonymous[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @CalDre
    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government. China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren't banned.

    This article is full of absurdities.


    American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain
     
    What official is that? The Orangutan? Please. He dances to the NutAndYahoo and the rest of the Tribe. His "heresy" is to amuse and befuddle the deplorables. Political theater, at its most spectacular.

    Even despite China constantly violating the WTO in every material respect, the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China, even though, as someone who was working with businesses making the move, everyone was well aware of China's blatant piracy. The ((bankers)) basically effected a massive wealth and capital (including technology, including know-how, blueprints and everything else needed to take over and continue the technological development) transfer from the West to China.

    It is these same ((bankers)) who have been behind Communism since its inception, in 1776, with Adam Weishaupt and the Order of the Illuminati.

    The ((bankers)) probably assumed that they had the ultimate power in China, as the Illuminati have generally been quite successful in maintaining their grasp on power in former British colonies. UK was always careful to set up effective control networks prior to withdrawing the troops.

    There is some sign that China has broken free from the grasp of the Illuminati, but, if it were actually true, China would be demonized as heavily as Russian and Iran, two countries that are far freer and democratic than China, and much less of a "threat".

    There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. These bankers have become successful over centuries, even an idiot knows not to do something so foolish and rash as to empower a real enemy. Theoretically, as a Communist Dictatorship, China should have been the enemy. But, again, the ((bankers)) never treated it as such, nor do they now.

    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government.

    This is incorrect in its whole – wholly foreign owned companies are allowed for export goods and much more generally so in special economic regions. Joint ventures do generally encourage technology transfer, but its usually a matter of negotiation more than anything else.

    China certainly games the system – and for that matter so does everyone else, but the idea that it just ignores the rules is silly. Given that the rules were setup more or less to exploit China, its pretty interesting that they were turned on its head.

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    • Replies: @CalDre

    Joint ventures do generally encourage technology transfer, but its usually a matter of negotiation more than anything else.
     
    First of all, the "forced tech transfers" are a more recent development, and have been implemented because China has already stolen all it can without having access to the underlying technology documents (i.e., blueprints, CAD files, etc.). Before that China would just steal the technology outright, but was limited to what could be reverse engineered or taken from that portion of the blue prints necessary for production, which does impose some significant limitations on technology theft.

    I can give you an anecdote about "traditional" Chinese technology theft (while this is ubiquitous, but I am using an anecdote). In second- and third-world countries you can buy so-called "gray market" Samsung Galaxies. In my case I purchased an S5 in an East European country some years ago. Everything looked official. All the parts were the exact same as the official ones. All the apps were the exact same as for a real S5. The phone claimed to be a Samsung. But the cost was much lower, about one-third of a real S5. The merchant told me it was cheaper because it was meant to be sold in the third-world but was just illegally imported into that country (so-called "gray market goods").

    So I took it home but, lo and behold, it would not work with Samsung's desktop application. After some calls to Samsung support, I learned that this phone was not actually a Samsung phone..

    But let's be clear about this: aside from being unauthorized, it was an exact duplicate of an S5. All of the parts were exactly the same. Do you know how much money it costs to design and assemble the touch-screen, the memory chips, the processor, the video card, the Bluetooth chips, etc., etc.? Literally there are hundreds of billions of dollars invested in this. And if someone was going to invest this kind of money, they would not make illegal phones and sell them for 1-34d the price for which Samsung makes them (and even at Samsung's price, they make a very small profit, so selling at 2/3rd discount means huge losses).

    So it is obvious what they did. The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a "third shift", at night, where they would produce these "gray market" goods, and sell them, at a huge profit to them, because of course they paid none of the development costs of these devices.

    Yes this is an anecdote but it is also true that this is a very widespread phenomenon. This so-called "theft" of intellectual property.

    But the theft goes much further than that, the Chinese reverse engineer all of the diagrams and devices, despite agreements with manufacturers not to do so, and then make their own copies, having saved countless billions in R&D costs. For example when China wanted to build high-speed rail, it asked for proposals, including sample locomotive, from all the world's leading train manufacturers. When they supplied them, China quickly reverse engineered them (despite agreements not to) and stole all the technology, then built their own high-speed train.

    The currency manipulation - a PPP analysis indicates that China's currency is undervalued by a factor of 4 (i.e., if China did not manipulate its currency, its exports would cost 4 times as much as they do now). This is equivalent to a 75% tariff on all foreign goods.

    These of course are the two by far largest rules violations by China. Each violation is of massive, massive proportions and affects virtually every category of goods.

    These examples go on forever. It is China's modus operandi.


    China certainly games the system – and for that matter so does everyone else, but the idea that it just ignores the rules is silly.
     
    It doesn't just ignore them, it actively violates them. The currency manipulation is a centralized planning tool used by the Communist Party. The IP theft is also a centralized tool as Chinese courts refuse to enforce the IP rules and let Chinese companies "steal" (I put this in quotes only because it is well-known that China steals IP so in a way the foreign manufacturers consent to this taking, making it not theft, more on that in another post in this thread) IP.
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  40. @Joe Wong
    Your jealousy, resentment and fear of Chinese achievements is glaring. If Chinese is not industry builder then no matter what you give them they will not be able to build industries because the aptitude and gene need to build industry are simply not there, does it make sense to you? Your bigotry put a lot of doubt into the perception that German people is logical and rational.

    Even look at the West, they got started ahead by stealing technologies from the East without paying IP fees, then expanded their technology lead by looting, plundering, wars, selling Opium, and all kind of beggar-thy-neighbour methodologies; how can they are falling behind when Chinese found its footing and starts out competing the West if Chinese is not industrialistic as well as prudent in commerce?

    You should know British could not sell anything they made to China after the industrial revolution, because their products were too coarse and limited in quantity, British could not match Chinese industries before Opium Wars. The British resorted to use Opium and wars to destroy Chinese industries so they could build their empire by flooding Chinese market with their inferior products.

    Go look up on why Russian jet engines smoked in the past and why they stopped emitting smoke, hehehe

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  41. @Daniel Chieh
    No one except Qin wants to admit to using Legalism, but just about every government in China uses it. But I guarantee that except for a few fringe people, you'll never get a government official who happily says "I am a Legalist!" like the way many would agree with "I am a Confucian!"

    Han Fei, though, truly a great man. And appropriate, perhaps, for the originator of such a bitter philosophy had a bitter life. I've heard him called the first realist politician, and I think its arguable that he deserves the title.

    And to add, this from wiki,

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Fei

    “Despite its outcast status throughout the history of imperial China, his political theory continued to heavily influence every dynasty thereafter, and the Confucian ideal of a rule without laws was never again realised. Shu Han’s chancellor Zhuge Liang demanded emperor Liu Shan read the Han Feizi for learning the way of ruling.”

    Not all scholar types were Confucian or Rujia and in those non Rujia circles, Hanfei is not a pariah. So how much an outcast can he be when someone like Zhuge Liang gives him the nod? It all depends on the”circle” in question.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I mean, his cheerful philosophy is that men are at the very least, without virtue, if not innately selfish and evil; therefore the only way to function society is to build incentives that encourage desired behavior and discourage unwanted behavior through punishment without mercy.

    It has proven its utility but who wants to be the one advocating that? It is fundamentally misanthropic, and doesn't even really suggest that humanity can ever change.
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  42. @Joe Wong
    What a load of ad hominem crap that an ex-convict can spew.

    As usual you missed the point. (No wonder you lost your paid trolling contract. The Chinese employers you look to are of course very smart). My only point against him, and that only tentatively, was that I noticed he was Australian but fidn’t know nearly as much about Australian politics as he claimed to. Thus some doubt was cast on his credibility.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    So anyone who says something you deem as pro China must be paid by the gov?

    How bout trying to debate ideas and not the person instead of ad hominem attacks when you can't think of something.

    Oh, by the way. It is common knowledge that the west pays for content and news all the time via CNN, Hollywood, and online content. So maybe you are a paid troll too.
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  43. CalDre says:
    @bluedog
    Of course they moved it to China(American business) and the reason was nothing but greed, and as far as the bankers or American business interest they are very short sited when the profits at stake that's why Japan and now China is arising while we are circling the drain ,waiting for only one more flush....

    Yes you can call it short-sighted greed all you want, but you have not refuted my points. Having a simplistic assumption and refusing to consider alternatives leaves you simply with a simplistic assumption.

    Having been involved “behind the scenes” in these decisions at least from my experience simple greed is not the explanation. Just as a simple thought experiment, the US could have not permitted China to join the WTO in the first place. Thereafter, the US could have sanctioned China at any time, could do so now.

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    • Replies: @TT

    US could have not permitted China to join the WTO in the first place. Thereafter, the US could have sanctioned China at any time, could do so now.
     
    Come on, don't be such silly to still dream on your Opium War era about sanction China anytime.

    US loved to have China in WTO so that it can rape China outright with unequal terms. That's common fact, US is never a charitable or merciful country but lead by vultures bankers & greedy MIC.

    Premier Zhu Rongji took the bait, and open up China without much preparation as it needed quick economic growth. More than 40Mil people lost their job in States Owned Enterprises within few years.

    How China turn around the table eventually, that's what Mr Roberts is trying to explain here. China pay its painful dues to learn.

    When US find WTO has outlived its exploiting purpose, FTA was initiated to strong arm twisting each weaker country separately.

    When China grow too strong to be arm twisted, TTP was initiated to exclude China, which work as another new round of WTO with new name, new membership to rape China again. When TTP outlive itself, another FYT with be launched. But Trumps is a godsend for China & Asia to cancel it.
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  44. CalDre says:
    @Vidi

    China never, ever played by the rules.
     
    If China's always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn't she lose more cases in the tribunal?

    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn't robbed blind. I would call that poetic justice.

    If China’s always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn’t she lose more cases in the tribunal?

    For the precise reason I noted at the outset: it is all part of the Master Bankster Plan. Hence the cases are not brought. For example for many years the US could have invoked its currency manipulation rules, which is a major cause of the trade imbalance. Yet each ((Goldman Sachs)) banker, one after another, that ran the US treasury, refused to do so. (If it’s not obvious from my parenthesis, ((Goldman Sachs)) bankers don’t serve the US, but some other power, and aren’t loyal to Americans, but to some other group.)

    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn’t robbed blind.

    Hugely unfair rules, really? Well let’s think about that. And the best way to measure whether rules are fair is whether one side is better off under the rules than the other side. And mainly looking at the average person.

    On the one hand we have China in 1971 which could barely feed itself, had no cars or industry, had no tall buildings, was basically like India, and now is one of the richest countries on the planet. Compare pictures of Shangai or Beijing in 1971, 2001 and now. What is abundantly clear is that under the WTO arrangement, China has benefited magnificently. Now, compare the US, with its loss of jobs, hollowed out industry, and massive annual trade deficit, which has suffered massively as a result.

    So, the average Chinaman greatly benefited from the rules, and the average American greatly suffered. And these rules are “unfair to China”? You know sometimes just a simple reality check can help you wade through all the b.s. propaganda that fills the “news”.

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    • Replies: @Vidi


    If China’s always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn’t she lose more cases in the tribunal?
     
    For the precise reason I noted at the outset: it is all part of the Master Bankster Plan. Hence the cases are not brought. For example for many years the US could have invoked its currency manipulation rules, which is a major cause of the trade imbalance. Yet each ((Goldman Sachs)) banker, one after another, that ran the US treasury, refused to do so. (If it’s not obvious from my parenthesis, ((Goldman Sachs)) bankers don’t serve the US, but some other power, and aren’t loyal to Americans, but to some other group.)
     
    In other words, you don't know, and you are just making something up to "explain" why China doesn't lose more cases in the WTO tribunal, in spite of "never, ever playing by the rules" (a paraphrase of your words). I realize that no facts are usually necessary for China- and Russia-bashing, but you should know better than to try that here, where you'll be called on it.


    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn’t robbed blind.
     
    Hugely unfair rules, really? Well let’s think about that. And the best way to measure whether rules are fair is whether one side is better off under the rules than the other side.
     
    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone. In "China's Embrace of Globalization" by Lee Branstetter and Nicholas Lardy, NBER Working Paper 12373, July 2006, http://www.nber.org/papers/w12373 :

    In [the process of WTO accession] China agreed to a set of conditions that were far more stringent than the terms under which other developing countries had acceded. Indeed, in certain respects China’s liberalization commitments exceed those of advanced industrial countries.
     
    (Emphasis added.) In other words, the U.S. stacked the deck on China -- and people like you are whining that the Chinese haven't been totally robbed. As I said, that is poetic justice.
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  45. The latest Economist has more than one interesting piece on China. It makes Xi sound a bit like Oliver Cromwell. Don’t bother to quibble: I refer mostly to the fact that he has something of a puritan streak. Nonetheless that is consistent with his having used the anti corruption drive which leaves a lot of bureaucrats and businessman feeling uncomfortable about the changes in the world they have been living in to single out potential rivals and their hangers on. And that leads me to what I find most disconcerting about that civilised country, and that is the legal system and the principles on which it is run. The Economist quotes a conviction rate of about 99.9 per cent. And the most senior judge describing independence of the judiciary as an unwanted Western idea. On top of that there is a lot of harassing and sometimes kidnapping people from foreign countries who are wanted for alleged crimes (an ancient driving offence in one absurd case!). It seems to be worse than anything the US gets up to except in cases of alleged terrorism and raises the question when extradition treaties and law everywhere is going to be reformed…. But on the Chinese approach to rule of law it would be interesting to know whether Godfree Roberts has an informed and considered view.

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    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    the Chinese approach to rule of laws that it must always degenerate into tricksterism unless it is subject to rule of virtue. That's what the CCP is supposed to provide and Xi is expected to exemplify.

    Does he?

    “I would put him in the Nelson Mandela’s class of persons. A person with enormous emotional stability who does not allow his personal misfortunes or sufferings affect his judgment. In other words, he is impressive.” Lee Kwan Yew, Founder of Singapore.
    http://world.time.com/2007/11/19/chinas_nelson_mandela/
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  46. CalDre says:
    @Anonymous


    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government.
     
    This is incorrect in its whole - wholly foreign owned companies are allowed for export goods and much more generally so in special economic regions. Joint ventures do generally encourage technology transfer, but its usually a matter of negotiation more than anything else.

    China certainly games the system - and for that matter so does everyone else, but the idea that it just ignores the rules is silly. Given that the rules were setup more or less to exploit China, its pretty interesting that they were turned on its head.

    Joint ventures do generally encourage technology transfer, but its usually a matter of negotiation more than anything else.

    First of all, the “forced tech transfers” are a more recent development, and have been implemented because China has already stolen all it can without having access to the underlying technology documents (i.e., blueprints, CAD files, etc.). Before that China would just steal the technology outright, but was limited to what could be reverse engineered or taken from that portion of the blue prints necessary for production, which does impose some significant limitations on technology theft.

    I can give you an anecdote about “traditional” Chinese technology theft (while this is ubiquitous, but I am using an anecdote). In second- and third-world countries you can buy so-called “gray market” Samsung Galaxies. In my case I purchased an S5 in an East European country some years ago. Everything looked official. All the parts were the exact same as the official ones. All the apps were the exact same as for a real S5. The phone claimed to be a Samsung. But the cost was much lower, about one-third of a real S5. The merchant told me it was cheaper because it was meant to be sold in the third-world but was just illegally imported into that country (so-called “gray market goods”).

    So I took it home but, lo and behold, it would not work with Samsung’s desktop application. After some calls to Samsung support, I learned that this phone was not actually a Samsung phone..

    But let’s be clear about this: aside from being unauthorized, it was an exact duplicate of an S5. All of the parts were exactly the same. Do you know how much money it costs to design and assemble the touch-screen, the memory chips, the processor, the video card, the Bluetooth chips, etc., etc.? Literally there are hundreds of billions of dollars invested in this. And if someone was going to invest this kind of money, they would not make illegal phones and sell them for 1-34d the price for which Samsung makes them (and even at Samsung’s price, they make a very small profit, so selling at 2/3rd discount means huge losses).

    So it is obvious what they did. The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a “third shift”, at night, where they would produce these “gray market” goods, and sell them, at a huge profit to them, because of course they paid none of the development costs of these devices.

    Yes this is an anecdote but it is also true that this is a very widespread phenomenon. This so-called “theft” of intellectual property.

    But the theft goes much further than that, the Chinese reverse engineer all of the diagrams and devices, despite agreements with manufacturers not to do so, and then make their own copies, having saved countless billions in R&D costs. For example when China wanted to build high-speed rail, it asked for proposals, including sample locomotive, from all the world’s leading train manufacturers. When they supplied them, China quickly reverse engineered them (despite agreements not to) and stole all the technology, then built their own high-speed train.

    The currency manipulation – a PPP analysis indicates that China’s currency is undervalued by a factor of 4 (i.e., if China did not manipulate its currency, its exports would cost 4 times as much as they do now). This is equivalent to a 75% tariff on all foreign goods.

    These of course are the two by far largest rules violations by China. Each violation is of massive, massive proportions and affects virtually every category of goods.

    These examples go on forever. It is China’s modus operandi.

    China certainly games the system – and for that matter so does everyone else, but the idea that it just ignores the rules is silly.

    It doesn’t just ignore them, it actively violates them. The currency manipulation is a centralized planning tool used by the Communist Party. The IP theft is also a centralized tool as Chinese courts refuse to enforce the IP rules and let Chinese companies “steal” (I put this in quotes only because it is well-known that China steals IP so in a way the foreign manufacturers consent to this taking, making it not theft, more on that in another post in this thread) IP.

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    "Technology Transfer" is the West and Japanese invention in the 60s to gloss over their rip-off the developing nations with their obsolete technologies and production facilities. One of the common practice of technology transfer is altering the spec of working process to lower standard in the transfer, such as lowering the finishing requirements of critical parts so the end products produced by the transferree will never work as smoothly and as long as the originals.

    The other trick is to increase the requirements of uncritical parts, so the transferree will always have higher production costs but inferior products. The technology transfer is a disguised plot to hinder and delay the technology development in the recipient nations.

    It is known practice that the pro sports in the West scalping their own tickets. It is also well known the foreign companies selling their products on grey markets to avoid taxes then blame China for IP thief. If the Samsung you got was identical from the real one it must be made by Samsung and scalping its own products to avoid taxes or someone was pocketing money unethically. Because all major brands control their parts' quantities from source with onsite monitoring, it is not possible for third parties to acquire their parts.

    You are practicing "inquisition" and burning Chinese reputation on the stake. The American and their lackeys are losing technologies competition, it is pathetic they are also losing their integrity and sportsmanship. What you are trolling here is an utterly disgusting display of uneducated red neck colonial trait.

    , @TT

    First of all, the “forced tech transfers” are a more recent development, ....could be reverse engineered … some significant limitations on technology theft.
     
    Smart Chinese, they are robbing the bandits blind... hehehehe

    For long time China has been reversed engineering whatever they could, in very innovative ways i found. Even in semiconductor, they could slice the die layer by layer to duplicate the design. They even duplicated SU-27 to Russia dismay.

    In second- and third-world countries… “gray market” Samsung Galaxies. …exact same as for a real S5. The phone claimed to be a Samsung...
     
    Its a Samsung genuine, but produce in China for lower markets & China domestic. Its different in quality & specs compare to make in Korea, its lighter with lower quality screen, slower response & no OTG USB feature, come with 2SIM slots sometimes. Its common now selling by importer even in higher market. You are speculating & misguided.

    The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a “third shift”, at night, where they would produce these “gray market” goods
     
    These factories are very tightly audited & competitive, like foxcomm, producing iphone, Xiaomi, HP, lot of big US brands. They run 3 shifts, no time for such risk.

    But its not too difficult to OEM these phone, usually they are exported under no brand or some funny brand to avoid export problem, selling at $100~200.

    Some factories producing low tech goods eg Nike shoes, they might do that in 3rd shifts with house brand using same quality materials & design which i find quite good. The fake brand quality is usually quite poor at 10% price.

    For example when China wanted to build high-speed rail, … stole all the technology, then built their own high-speed train.
     
    China indigenous FSR is best now. To able to digest a high tech & innovate from there is not theft as you kept shrieking.

    Jp & Korea, Taiwan & everyone are all doing the same things. Some are so afraid to sell high tech equipment to Korea bcos they perfected their ability to come out a competitive one very fast. That's how the world work, the Americans & Europeans are doing the same, but they are already in highest level so few to copy but to innovate.

    When China surpass West & Jp in technology like Huawei, you will see the reverse.

    In fact the west are also violating many Asia small companies IP blatantly, but they are too powerful to be sued, eg Trek2000 flash technology, Creative MP3 & sound A/D IP,...

    The currency manipulation – a PPP analysis indicates that China’s currency is undervalued by a factor of 4 (i.e., if China did not manipulate its currency, its exports would cost 4 times as much as they do now). This is equivalent to a 75% tariff on all foreign goods.
     
    Every countries are manipulating their currency to best serve their nation interest. You should shout at everyone, starting from the biggest G7 bandits, the West. 4x is foolish estimation, so China GDP should be 11T x4=44T now?

    China imported most energy & parts for production, and export is only 19% of GDP. How you derive 75% tariff? To weaken own currency to buy at 4x price is ridiculous . Tariffs is charged on selected imported goods to artificially inflate their price so to protect own domestic high production cost like US. This don't work vice versa by undervalued one currency.

    Only when China economy is matured, Yuan may strengthen 4x, then its reverse role of what US hedgmon enjoy, buying spree by printing $.

    Chinese courts refuse to enforce the IP rules and let Chinese companies “steal”
     
    It would be foolish for China court to enforce foreign IP diligently before reaching parity with West, like my country did costing our development dearly. Its better for foreign companies to strike a royalty deals with Chinese for using their IP to get as some profit.

    The poors are robbing the biggest bandits... hehehehe still the Chinese don't rob globally by gunboats & financial raid like your country, blood for oil.
    , @Anonymous

    I can give you an anecdote about “traditional” Chinese technology theft (while this is ubiquitous, but I am using an anecdote). In second- and third-world countries you can buy so-called “gray market” Samsung Galaxies.
     
    Interesting story, but you really don't know how phones are made.

    Samsung phones are made in several countries. Those made in China are made by Foxconn, the same Taiwanese company - not Chinese - that makes iphone, ipad, and Playstation 4. Foxconn is a huge public trade company that acquired Japanese "Sharp" a couple years ago, and is the process of building a giant factory in Wisconsin with initial $10 billion investment. Strictly speaking, high-end smart phones like Samsung Galaxies or iphones are not "made"in China; they are assembled in China, as most parts are imported from Japan, Korea and Taiwan. And Samsung makes many of those parts.

    If you think Foxconn or other companies are able to churn out Samsung phones using the exact parts without getting caught (making money is even harder), then you are really out of touch with reality.

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  47. Joe Wong says:
    @chan sm
    Wow, this is explosive. China was forced to join the WTO under very restrictive conditions, alway played by the rules. The US, when it cannot compete, either change the rules or break the rules, or pulls out from the agreement.

    This also happened in sports. Table tennis where China was too dominant for too long, the European controlled ITTF changed the balls and the ranking system in 2018 relegating the Chinese world no 1 to world no 9. And in march 2018, the no 9 beat the German world no1.

    And all these while, US media, and idealogues like Navarro, and the politicians have been spreading fake news that China trade practices are " unfair."

    For example, always that China benefitted from the west opening up for China and never the other way round, that China opened up for western investment. And that China forced " technology transfer." If US companies do not like the domestic rules, just do not enter the Chinese market. China is not pointing a gun at their heads. But they are too greedy and drools at the huge chinese market.

    In badminton too, when China took all medals in all categories, the gweilo controlled BWF changed rules and restricted Chinese players can compete in the Olympics.

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  48. Vidi says:
    @CalDre

    If China’s always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn’t she lose more cases in the tribunal?
     
    For the precise reason I noted at the outset: it is all part of the Master Bankster Plan. Hence the cases are not brought. For example for many years the US could have invoked its currency manipulation rules, which is a major cause of the trade imbalance. Yet each ((Goldman Sachs)) banker, one after another, that ran the US treasury, refused to do so. (If it's not obvious from my parenthesis, ((Goldman Sachs)) bankers don't serve the US, but some other power, and aren't loyal to Americans, but to some other group.)

    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn’t robbed blind.
     
    Hugely unfair rules, really? Well let's think about that. And the best way to measure whether rules are fair is whether one side is better off under the rules than the other side. And mainly looking at the average person.

    On the one hand we have China in 1971 which could barely feed itself, had no cars or industry, had no tall buildings, was basically like India, and now is one of the richest countries on the planet. Compare pictures of Shangai or Beijing in 1971, 2001 and now. What is abundantly clear is that under the WTO arrangement, China has benefited magnificently. Now, compare the US, with its loss of jobs, hollowed out industry, and massive annual trade deficit, which has suffered massively as a result.

    So, the average Chinaman greatly benefited from the rules, and the average American greatly suffered. And these rules are "unfair to China"? You know sometimes just a simple reality check can help you wade through all the b.s. propaganda that fills the "news".

    If China’s always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn’t she lose more cases in the tribunal?

    For the precise reason I noted at the outset: it is all part of the Master Bankster Plan. Hence the cases are not brought. For example for many years the US could have invoked its currency manipulation rules, which is a major cause of the trade imbalance. Yet each ((Goldman Sachs)) banker, one after another, that ran the US treasury, refused to do so. (If it’s not obvious from my parenthesis, ((Goldman Sachs)) bankers don’t serve the US, but some other power, and aren’t loyal to Americans, but to some other group.)

    In other words, you don’t know, and you are just making something up to “explain” why China doesn’t lose more cases in the WTO tribunal, in spite of “never, ever playing by the rules” (a paraphrase of your words). I realize that no facts are usually necessary for China- and Russia-bashing, but you should know better than to try that here, where you’ll be called on it.

    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn’t robbed blind.

    Hugely unfair rules, really? Well let’s think about that. And the best way to measure whether rules are fair is whether one side is better off under the rules than the other side.

    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone. In “China’s Embrace of Globalization” by Lee Branstetter and Nicholas Lardy, NBER Working Paper 12373, July 2006, http://www.nber.org/papers/w12373 :

    In [the process of WTO accession] China agreed to a set of conditions that were far more stringent than the terms under which other developing countries had acceded. Indeed, in certain respects China’s liberalization commitments exceed those of advanced industrial countries.

    (Emphasis added.) In other words, the U.S. stacked the deck on China — and people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been totally robbed. As I said, that is poetic justice.

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    • Replies: @CalDre

    In other words, you don’t know, and you are just making something up to “explain” why China doesn’t lose more cases in the WTO tribunal
     
    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn't. That itself is determinative.

    For example, in the US today, there are millions of people smoking marijuana and buying it in stores, even though it is illegal under federal law. Now you will tell me these users are not breaking the rules, just because they are not prosecuted? And what about the ten million illegals working in jobs in the US, illegally. They are not breaking the rules, because they are not put in prison?

    Really your argument makes no sense. China doesn't lose cases for the simple reason that US does not bring cases. Your assumption that because US does not bring cases, there are no violations, is absolutely stupid. American corporations have brought IP theft cases in China, but as a matter of policy, the judges, who are all Communist Party members, rule against the foreign corporations. It is systemic, organized theft.


    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone.
     
    As I have already noted, you are bringing up trivialities. There are two major drivers of US-China trade/investment that absolutely dwarf everything else: Chinese currency manipulation (by pegging to the dollar and imposing strict capital flow controls), and rampant Chinese theft of intellectual property. Those massive and continuous rules violations are thousands of times more important in real life then the minor stuff you whine on about.

    people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been totally robbed.
     
    Anyone with half a brain, which apparently excludes you, can see that China has made out like bandits, literally, from the trade agreements.
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  49. Joe Wong says:

    The quality of the article is the ruler to judge his credibility, not his knowledge on Australian politics or his nationality. Besides his knowledge on Australian politics is your personal opinion not a gauge to judge anything, also the author is not talking about Australian politics here.

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  50. Vidi says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Aren't you a white man?

    Why don't you take your own side?

    Aren’t you a white man?

    Why don’t you take your own side?

    I’m not Godfree, whom you are probably addressing, but I’ll take a stab at answering your frankly racist question.

    Godfree might be a white man, but perhaps he wants fairness and justice done. These two qualities are important if the human race is to last much longer.

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  51. Joe Wong says:
    @CalDre
    No, the ((bankers)) I'm talking about don't work that way. They think much more long term. Centuries even. They are the actual chess players.

    But nonetheless, assume the banksters were short-sighted greedy. Why did the US government allow them to move US technology overseas? Do you think they would allow all the top-tech US companies to move their technology to Russia, for example? No, of course not, they put sanctions instead. Even though lots of money could be made in Russia, or Iran even. Not only did US permit US corporations moving high tech to China, they gave huge tax breaks for it, i.e., encouraged it.

    Your rant is getting out of hand; the American banned every Chinese investment in the US on the ground of national security, and the American imposed most severe sanctions and embargo on China. The Americans even ban their inferior technology to China while import superior technology from China shamelessly. In addition the United States is a minor player in Chinese foreign trade. The only thing American is good at is big mouth loose cannon that always claims credit where credit is not due.

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    • Replies: @CalDre
    LOL, the resident Chinese troll. Why not try using facts and logic instead of insults and fantasy for a change?

    the American banned every Chinese investment in the US on the ground of national security
     
    Gee, that's interesting, because in 2016 Chinese invested over $51 billion in the US. Yes some proposed investments were properly blocked on national security grounds. Which one do you think was so unreasonable?

    Of course China does not make investments in US to build things or to bring technology to the US, like US does with investments in China. Without US investments, Chinese would still be impoverished rice farmers. On the other hand, in return, China tries to buy strategic assets, that already exist, in the US, like ports and critical military technology. Why not try making an investment helpful for the other country?


    The Americans even ban their inferior technology to China while import superior technology from China shamelessly.
     
    Please provide a concrete example.

    In addition the United States is a minor player in Chinese foreign trade.
     
    In fact, the US is China's largest export market. Again, as always, you lie, because you are a habitual liar.

    Try learning a little bit before writing. You are just a foul-mouthed ignoramus.

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  52. @Thorfinnsson
    I don't disagree with you.

    But Godfree Roberts' hero worship of the Chinese is weird and disturbing.

    It's likely too late to stop China now, but we don't need to pretend to like the fact that they're en route to #1.

    It is disturbing the chinese are going to be a million times a bigger problem than the jews. because they have the same IQ edge and the same natural tribalism as the rest of the races, but they are a million times bigger than the jews and are operating from a real nation state.But i took the article as more of a warning than anything

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  53. @anonymous
    Argh!! Can't you deplorables get yourselves some education?

    educate me because i have family photos from my english uncles of dead turks in trenches along side englishmen from crimea and who were they trying to kill white men.Just like when they went aftewr the germans just like when clinton bombed christian on easter sunday to keep muslims in europe and a thousand other examples.

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  54. CalDre says:
    @Joe Wong
    Your rant is getting out of hand; the American banned every Chinese investment in the US on the ground of national security, and the American imposed most severe sanctions and embargo on China. The Americans even ban their inferior technology to China while import superior technology from China shamelessly. In addition the United States is a minor player in Chinese foreign trade. The only thing American is good at is big mouth loose cannon that always claims credit where credit is not due.

    LOL, the resident Chinese troll. Why not try using facts and logic instead of insults and fantasy for a change?

    the American banned every Chinese investment in the US on the ground of national security

    Gee, that’s interesting, because in 2016 Chinese invested over $51 billion in the US. Yes some proposed investments were properly blocked on national security grounds. Which one do you think was so unreasonable?

    Of course China does not make investments in US to build things or to bring technology to the US, like US does with investments in China. Without US investments, Chinese would still be impoverished rice farmers. On the other hand, in return, China tries to buy strategic assets, that already exist, in the US, like ports and critical military technology. Why not try making an investment helpful for the other country?

    The Americans even ban their inferior technology to China while import superior technology from China shamelessly.

    Please provide a concrete example.

    In addition the United States is a minor player in Chinese foreign trade.

    In fact, the US is China’s largest export market. Again, as always, you lie, because you are a habitual liar.

    Try learning a little bit before writing. You are just a foul-mouthed ignoramus.

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    USA FDI in China 1990-2016: $242.57bn, while China FDI in 1990-2016: $110.08bn, China allows USA have more control of businesses in China than the USA, why are you lying that China does not play by the rules? Why do you lie that China does not allow foreign ownership?

    EU and SE Asia are the Chinese biggest trading partners not the USA. USA is a minor player in China economy, that's why China does not afraid the USA provoking a trade war, because China does not need the headache from the USA while the American depends on Chinese goods and money. Chinese future is in SE Asia, Africa, EU and Latin America not in the USA. USA is hissing and pissing because it is afraid it will be relegated to the fringe on the international stage.

    USA bans 2 ton electric vibration table to China for national security reason, but it imports 8 ton electric vibration table from China. In addition the American imports a lot of gas turbine blades and drones from China that forced Pentagon to issue restrictions on the use of them among the US military. American yelling IP thief is typical an Anglo miser trait.
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  55. TT says:
    @CalDre
    Yes you can call it short-sighted greed all you want, but you have not refuted my points. Having a simplistic assumption and refusing to consider alternatives leaves you simply with a simplistic assumption.

    Having been involved "behind the scenes" in these decisions at least from my experience simple greed is not the explanation. Just as a simple thought experiment, the US could have not permitted China to join the WTO in the first place. Thereafter, the US could have sanctioned China at any time, could do so now.

    US could have not permitted China to join the WTO in the first place. Thereafter, the US could have sanctioned China at any time, could do so now.

    Come on, don’t be such silly to still dream on your Opium War era about sanction China anytime.

    US loved to have China in WTO so that it can rape China outright with unequal terms. That’s common fact, US is never a charitable or merciful country but lead by vultures bankers & greedy MIC.

    Premier Zhu Rongji took the bait, and open up China without much preparation as it needed quick economic growth. More than 40Mil people lost their job in States Owned Enterprises within few years.

    How China turn around the table eventually, that’s what Mr Roberts is trying to explain here. China pay its painful dues to learn.

    When US find WTO has outlived its exploiting purpose, FTA was initiated to strong arm twisting each weaker country separately.

    When China grow too strong to be arm twisted, TTP was initiated to exclude China, which work as another new round of WTO with new name, new membership to rape China again. When TTP outlive itself, another FYT with be launched. But Trumps is a godsend for China & Asia to cancel it.

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    • Replies: @CalDre

    US loved to have China in WTO so that it can rape China outright with unequal terms.
     
    The only ones getting raped are American workers. Those who benefit: the globalist oligarchs, the Chinese Communist Party, and the Chinese worker.

    Again, you are trying to make propaganda about pointless things. Try to look at the forest, with objectivity. How have Chinese living standards changed since 2001, and how have American? This alone answers all the questions. Now again if you want to go into details, the two primary mechanisms that have been used to accomplish this is Chinese currency manipulation and Chinese intellectual property theft.

    But also there are constant WTO rules violations. I have had many clients who have tried to do business in China and I know how China constantly violates rules. Anybody doing business with China knows this, regardless of you writing utter nonsense about "Opium wars".


    US is never a charitable or merciful country but lead by vultures bankers & greedy MIC
     
    Agreed, but these bankers and MIC are not Americans, they are globalist oligarchs. They don't care one iota about Americans. I agree that they are evil, just look at my post history on Unz, I am constantly critiquing them harshly as I believe they are traitors to America and Americans.

    But that does not make your claims about trade true.

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  56. CalDre says:
    @Vidi


    If China’s always breaking the WTO rules, why doesn’t she lose more cases in the tribunal?
     
    For the precise reason I noted at the outset: it is all part of the Master Bankster Plan. Hence the cases are not brought. For example for many years the US could have invoked its currency manipulation rules, which is a major cause of the trade imbalance. Yet each ((Goldman Sachs)) banker, one after another, that ran the US treasury, refused to do so. (If it’s not obvious from my parenthesis, ((Goldman Sachs)) bankers don’t serve the US, but some other power, and aren’t loyal to Americans, but to some other group.)
     
    In other words, you don't know, and you are just making something up to "explain" why China doesn't lose more cases in the WTO tribunal, in spite of "never, ever playing by the rules" (a paraphrase of your words). I realize that no facts are usually necessary for China- and Russia-bashing, but you should know better than to try that here, where you'll be called on it.


    The U.S. imposes some hugely unfair rules on China, and then whines that China isn’t robbed blind.
     
    Hugely unfair rules, really? Well let’s think about that. And the best way to measure whether rules are fair is whether one side is better off under the rules than the other side.
     
    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone. In "China's Embrace of Globalization" by Lee Branstetter and Nicholas Lardy, NBER Working Paper 12373, July 2006, http://www.nber.org/papers/w12373 :

    In [the process of WTO accession] China agreed to a set of conditions that were far more stringent than the terms under which other developing countries had acceded. Indeed, in certain respects China’s liberalization commitments exceed those of advanced industrial countries.
     
    (Emphasis added.) In other words, the U.S. stacked the deck on China -- and people like you are whining that the Chinese haven't been totally robbed. As I said, that is poetic justice.

    In other words, you don’t know, and you are just making something up to “explain” why China doesn’t lose more cases in the WTO tribunal

    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn’t. That itself is determinative.

    For example, in the US today, there are millions of people smoking marijuana and buying it in stores, even though it is illegal under federal law. Now you will tell me these users are not breaking the rules, just because they are not prosecuted? And what about the ten million illegals working in jobs in the US, illegally. They are not breaking the rules, because they are not put in prison?

    Really your argument makes no sense. China doesn’t lose cases for the simple reason that US does not bring cases. Your assumption that because US does not bring cases, there are no violations, is absolutely stupid. American corporations have brought IP theft cases in China, but as a matter of policy, the judges, who are all Communist Party members, rule against the foreign corporations. It is systemic, organized theft.

    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone.

    As I have already noted, you are bringing up trivialities. There are two major drivers of US-China trade/investment that absolutely dwarf everything else: Chinese currency manipulation (by pegging to the dollar and imposing strict capital flow controls), and rampant Chinese theft of intellectual property. Those massive and continuous rules violations are thousands of times more important in real life then the minor stuff you whine on about.

    people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been totally robbed.

    Anyone with half a brain, which apparently excludes you, can see that China has made out like bandits, literally, from the trade agreements.

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    If China violates the rules set up by the USA and EU, why are the USA and EU losing cases in the WTO courts presided by the third parties?

    Do you actually understand "people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been TOTALLY robbed," or you are the one is "bandit yelling robbery?"

    American is sore loser, a trait the British call those uneducated red neck colonials.

    , @denk

    China has made out like bandits,
     
    [sic]


    That'd be fukusI[ndia] M.O. down to a T...

    fukusI have been stalking Chinese investments all over the world, sabotaging it with Arm twisting, disinfo, FF, terrorism, you name it,
    every dirty tricks in CIA's book.

    Gawd knows Chinese companies must have been hemorrhaging monies in these past decades ; courtesy of fukusI shenanigans.

    Exhibit Libya,

    'US-led military adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and across sub-Saharan Africa are aimed at thwarting China’s economic expansion, especially because Chinese partnerships have been welcomed in such countries. The NATO-induced regime change last year in Libya alone is reckoned to have cost China billions of dollars in oil and infrastructure investments. The same US game plan is unfolding covertly in Syria and Iran, with the Western powers and their Arab, Turk and Israeli allies waging a criminal war of state-sponsored terrorism and destabilisation.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-wired-for-war-why-syria-could-spell-world-catastrophe/32150
    , @Vidi

    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn’t. That itself is determinative.
     
    The US doesn't take more action in the WTO tribunal because it knows it will lose.

    The extract I quoted from the Branstetter and Lardy paper makes it clear that the US did all it could to rig the WTO against the Chinese. The conditions imposed were those the U.S. wanted, so it has no right to whine about them now.

    (By the way, the WTO does not govern exchange rates. If it did, the rest of the world would be suing the U.S. for devaluing the dollar.)
    , @Vidi


    The US doesn’t take more action in the WTO tribunal because it knows it will lose.
     
    We’ll agree to disagree.
     
    The U.S. could, of course, exploit its dominance of the WTO to make the whole tribunal a mere kangaroo court, but that would destroy the WTO.

    Why would I care what Branstetter and Lardy say?
     
    You should care because the NBER is the National Bureau of Economic Research, the largest economic research organization in the U.S. Its current president is Professor James Poterba of MIT. It is far more credible than most American organizations are these days.

    If the NBER says the U.S. basically rigged the WTO against the Chinese, that is almost certainly true. So you've no right to whine about it now, as the terms were the ones the U.S. forced on China, and the U.S. signed the deal of its own free will.

    Those massive and continuous rules violations are thousands of times more important in real life then the minor stuff you whine on about.
     
    First, what violations of WTO rules are these? And second, what credible evidence do you have that those violations occurred? Or are you behaving like a typical neocon, spewing evidence-free (and probably fact-free) allegations?
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  57. Joe Wong says:
    @CalDre
    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government. China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren't banned.

    This article is full of absurdities.


    American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain
     
    What official is that? The Orangutan? Please. He dances to the NutAndYahoo and the rest of the Tribe. His "heresy" is to amuse and befuddle the deplorables. Political theater, at its most spectacular.

    Even despite China constantly violating the WTO in every material respect, the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China, even though, as someone who was working with businesses making the move, everyone was well aware of China's blatant piracy. The ((bankers)) basically effected a massive wealth and capital (including technology, including know-how, blueprints and everything else needed to take over and continue the technological development) transfer from the West to China.

    It is these same ((bankers)) who have been behind Communism since its inception, in 1776, with Adam Weishaupt and the Order of the Illuminati.

    The ((bankers)) probably assumed that they had the ultimate power in China, as the Illuminati have generally been quite successful in maintaining their grasp on power in former British colonies. UK was always careful to set up effective control networks prior to withdrawing the troops.

    There is some sign that China has broken free from the grasp of the Illuminati, but, if it were actually true, China would be demonized as heavily as Russian and Iran, two countries that are far freer and democratic than China, and much less of a "threat".

    There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. These bankers have become successful over centuries, even an idiot knows not to do something so foolish and rash as to empower a real enemy. Theoretically, as a Communist Dictatorship, China should have been the enemy. But, again, the ((bankers)) never treated it as such, nor do they now.

    Whose rule are you talking about? Your rule or WTO’s rule. American rule is bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated allegation as humanitarian intervention. The American has only one rule that is making up on the go and claiming credit where credit is not due.

    This article shows the American and EU are losing in the courts based on the WTO’s rules they set up themselves.

    If the American does not ban Chinese merges and acquisitions in the USA, then China will not retaliate against the USA by restricting USA certain businesses in China. All other nations have their equal treatments in China and own businesses in China. You should know the unequal treaty era is over, USA must respect international laws and rules like everybody else. USA needs to allow China access the USA market freely and fairly in order to get equal treatment in China, yelling fake news like a spoil kid will not get the USA exempt for Chinese laws and rules as well as international laws and rules.

    You should know trolling old days of colonialism slogans and spewing out zero-sum cold war rhetoric do not work in this globalized free trade market, following WTO rules is the only way to gain markets successfully. USA needs to learn obey laws and rules, its mafia behavior is harmful not only to itself but also to the international law and order.

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  58. CalDre says:
    @TT

    US could have not permitted China to join the WTO in the first place. Thereafter, the US could have sanctioned China at any time, could do so now.
     
    Come on, don't be such silly to still dream on your Opium War era about sanction China anytime.

    US loved to have China in WTO so that it can rape China outright with unequal terms. That's common fact, US is never a charitable or merciful country but lead by vultures bankers & greedy MIC.

    Premier Zhu Rongji took the bait, and open up China without much preparation as it needed quick economic growth. More than 40Mil people lost their job in States Owned Enterprises within few years.

    How China turn around the table eventually, that's what Mr Roberts is trying to explain here. China pay its painful dues to learn.

    When US find WTO has outlived its exploiting purpose, FTA was initiated to strong arm twisting each weaker country separately.

    When China grow too strong to be arm twisted, TTP was initiated to exclude China, which work as another new round of WTO with new name, new membership to rape China again. When TTP outlive itself, another FYT with be launched. But Trumps is a godsend for China & Asia to cancel it.

    US loved to have China in WTO so that it can rape China outright with unequal terms.

    The only ones getting raped are American workers. Those who benefit: the globalist oligarchs, the Chinese Communist Party, and the Chinese worker.

    Again, you are trying to make propaganda about pointless things. Try to look at the forest, with objectivity. How have Chinese living standards changed since 2001, and how have American? This alone answers all the questions. Now again if you want to go into details, the two primary mechanisms that have been used to accomplish this is Chinese currency manipulation and Chinese intellectual property theft.

    But also there are constant WTO rules violations. I have had many clients who have tried to do business in China and I know how China constantly violates rules. Anybody doing business with China knows this, regardless of you writing utter nonsense about “Opium wars”.

    US is never a charitable or merciful country but lead by vultures bankers & greedy MIC

    Agreed, but these bankers and MIC are not Americans, they are globalist oligarchs. They don’t care one iota about Americans. I agree that they are evil, just look at my post history on Unz, I am constantly critiquing them harshly as I believe they are traitors to America and Americans.

    But that does not make your claims about trade true.

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    • Replies: @TT
    Sorry, you are confusing US (political leaders you elected that charted US fate) with average Americans(welfare).

    US raped China with WTO. Its your capitalist, bankers, MIC & politicians that raped Americans by hollowing out manufacturing and flooding of cheap migrants labour, throwing $T in endless wars instead of rebuild aging infra structures.

    While i find most average Americans lovely( i got one white American in my family), but US foreign policies & way of conducting business are evil to core to my detest.

    Is China to be blamed for US declination? Well at least your one stupid congressman is complaining that to me, how Asia cheap labour robbed US blind. But its just capitalism working in magic, max profit at min cost, at expense of US national interest. Without China, Asia will still get the job transfer but slower.

    But also there are constant WTO rules violations. I have had many clients who have tried to do business in China and I know how China constantly violates rules. Anybody doing business with China knows this, regardless of you writing utter nonsense about “Opium wars”.
     
    That's reality of life, whether in China or elsewhere you invest, high return = high risk,.. my country got so many bankruptcy and national projects cheated in China during Jiang's corrupted era. But in Pres Xi time, seem working well.

    It seems Germans, Jp, Koreans, Asians are doing well in China. But arrogant country like US, UK & Fr are not, lot of reflection required.

    China is very attractive huge market, only if you get the right partner. The beauty of Oriental... hehehehe
    , @myself

    How have Chinese living standards changed since 2001, and how have American? This alone answers all the questions.
     
    I have to disagree that it serves to clarify issues.

    I know someone who will never enter into business and so, never be rich. His reason? He feels exploited and cheated if/when his prospective partner in business stands to make more money than him. In fact, he feels cheated when his prospective partner makes ANY MONEY AT ALL.

    In any business transaction, the profits to be gained are rarely, if ever, shared equally, down to the last cent. One partner will make money, and the other one may make more, or make less.

    I tried to make the point that the key consideration was this: If you enter into business together, do both of you HAVE MORE individually as a result, than you would both otherwise have if you had not entered? As the party who stands to, for example, make somewhat less money, would you rather not enter into business and thereby make ZERO money?

    Back to the general economic relationship between developed (United States) and developing (China) economies: Of course the profits will not accrue equally - in high-tech collaboration, the United States benefited from China's low-cost educated labor, and so reaped greater rewards than China. In low-tech exports, China in turn sold to America's richer middle class, so profiting more than America.

    In all honesty, it cannot be said that America as whole is not richer and better-off having traded with China. We are, in objective absolute terms, much better off than if we had not.

    The real problem is how the profits and wealth have been distributed in America - meaning largely to the upper corporate ranks, with almost nothing for the middle management and employees.

    THAT is a problem with America's business structure, for which we cannot blame China.
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  59. Joe Wong says:
    @CalDre
    LOL, the resident Chinese troll. Why not try using facts and logic instead of insults and fantasy for a change?

    the American banned every Chinese investment in the US on the ground of national security
     
    Gee, that's interesting, because in 2016 Chinese invested over $51 billion in the US. Yes some proposed investments were properly blocked on national security grounds. Which one do you think was so unreasonable?

    Of course China does not make investments in US to build things or to bring technology to the US, like US does with investments in China. Without US investments, Chinese would still be impoverished rice farmers. On the other hand, in return, China tries to buy strategic assets, that already exist, in the US, like ports and critical military technology. Why not try making an investment helpful for the other country?


    The Americans even ban their inferior technology to China while import superior technology from China shamelessly.
     
    Please provide a concrete example.

    In addition the United States is a minor player in Chinese foreign trade.
     
    In fact, the US is China's largest export market. Again, as always, you lie, because you are a habitual liar.

    Try learning a little bit before writing. You are just a foul-mouthed ignoramus.

    USA FDI in China 1990-2016: $242.57bn, while China FDI in 1990-2016: $110.08bn, China allows USA have more control of businesses in China than the USA, why are you lying that China does not play by the rules? Why do you lie that China does not allow foreign ownership?

    EU and SE Asia are the Chinese biggest trading partners not the USA. USA is a minor player in China economy, that’s why China does not afraid the USA provoking a trade war, because China does not need the headache from the USA while the American depends on Chinese goods and money. Chinese future is in SE Asia, Africa, EU and Latin America not in the USA. USA is hissing and pissing because it is afraid it will be relegated to the fringe on the international stage.

    USA bans 2 ton electric vibration table to China for national security reason, but it imports 8 ton electric vibration table from China. In addition the American imports a lot of gas turbine blades and drones from China that forced Pentagon to issue restrictions on the use of them among the US military. American yelling IP thief is typical an Anglo miser trait.

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  60. @ThatDamnGood
    And to add, this from wiki,

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Fei

    "Despite its outcast status throughout the history of imperial China, his political theory continued to heavily influence every dynasty thereafter, and the Confucian ideal of a rule without laws was never again realised. Shu Han's chancellor Zhuge Liang demanded emperor Liu Shan read the Han Feizi for learning the way of ruling."

    Not all scholar types were Confucian or Rujia and in those non Rujia circles, Hanfei is not a pariah. So how much an outcast can he be when someone like Zhuge Liang gives him the nod? It all depends on the"circle" in question.

    I mean, his cheerful philosophy is that men are at the very least, without virtue, if not innately selfish and evil; therefore the only way to function society is to build incentives that encourage desired behavior and discourage unwanted behavior through punishment without mercy.

    It has proven its utility but who wants to be the one advocating that? It is fundamentally misanthropic, and doesn’t even really suggest that humanity can ever change.

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  61. Joe Wong says:
    @CalDre

    In other words, you don’t know, and you are just making something up to “explain” why China doesn’t lose more cases in the WTO tribunal
     
    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn't. That itself is determinative.

    For example, in the US today, there are millions of people smoking marijuana and buying it in stores, even though it is illegal under federal law. Now you will tell me these users are not breaking the rules, just because they are not prosecuted? And what about the ten million illegals working in jobs in the US, illegally. They are not breaking the rules, because they are not put in prison?

    Really your argument makes no sense. China doesn't lose cases for the simple reason that US does not bring cases. Your assumption that because US does not bring cases, there are no violations, is absolutely stupid. American corporations have brought IP theft cases in China, but as a matter of policy, the judges, who are all Communist Party members, rule against the foreign corporations. It is systemic, organized theft.


    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone.
     
    As I have already noted, you are bringing up trivialities. There are two major drivers of US-China trade/investment that absolutely dwarf everything else: Chinese currency manipulation (by pegging to the dollar and imposing strict capital flow controls), and rampant Chinese theft of intellectual property. Those massive and continuous rules violations are thousands of times more important in real life then the minor stuff you whine on about.

    people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been totally robbed.
     
    Anyone with half a brain, which apparently excludes you, can see that China has made out like bandits, literally, from the trade agreements.

    If China violates the rules set up by the USA and EU, why are the USA and EU losing cases in the WTO courts presided by the third parties?

    Do you actually understand “people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been TOTALLY robbed,” or you are the one is “bandit yelling robbery?”

    American is sore loser, a trait the British call those uneducated red neck colonials.

    Read More
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  62. TT says:
    @CalDre
    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government. China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren't banned.

    This article is full of absurdities.


    American officials increasingly view China’s joining the WTO as a bad bargain
     
    What official is that? The Orangutan? Please. He dances to the NutAndYahoo and the rest of the Tribe. His "heresy" is to amuse and befuddle the deplorables. Political theater, at its most spectacular.

    Even despite China constantly violating the WTO in every material respect, the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China, even though, as someone who was working with businesses making the move, everyone was well aware of China's blatant piracy. The ((bankers)) basically effected a massive wealth and capital (including technology, including know-how, blueprints and everything else needed to take over and continue the technological development) transfer from the West to China.

    It is these same ((bankers)) who have been behind Communism since its inception, in 1776, with Adam Weishaupt and the Order of the Illuminati.

    The ((bankers)) probably assumed that they had the ultimate power in China, as the Illuminati have generally been quite successful in maintaining their grasp on power in former British colonies. UK was always careful to set up effective control networks prior to withdrawing the troops.

    There is some sign that China has broken free from the grasp of the Illuminati, but, if it were actually true, China would be demonized as heavily as Russian and Iran, two countries that are far freer and democratic than China, and much less of a "threat".

    There is no way in hell the ((bankers)) would have transferred all that tech and wealth and power to China unless they felt they had control there. These bankers have become successful over centuries, even an idiot knows not to do something so foolish and rash as to empower a real enemy. Theoretically, as a Communist Dictatorship, China should have been the enemy. But, again, the ((bankers)) never treated it as such, nor do they now.

    It seem you are utterly ignorant in business trade that you are ranting so much with unsubstantiated facts. I truly doubt you ever visited China, let alone been in trade line or ever trade with China.

    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government.

    WTO is a English based rules body writen by West all to Anglo-American advantage, what rule do you still want, in Chinese? Its US & EU refusing to play by rule now to give China economy market as agreed.

    Every country can imposed its own domestic rules, its different from trade & tariff import/export fairness. Didn’t US blocked most acquisition of China on security reason?

    Malaysia also required majority Malays ownership, so are many countries, all setting limitation on various sector for protection. WTO allowed different countries to adjust within a time frame. But China got the worst restriction by WTO unfair rules as this article rightly pointed out.

    How is IP stolen wholesale frequently by gov? Give example & evidence. Every developing country also embarked on similar path, Jp, Korea, Taiwan & Asean too, by copying first, then developing, finally innovate. Only when China find protecting IP is to its advantage like the developed countries with plenty of patents will it find incentive to prosecute infringement diligently, which is happening now.

    China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren’t banned.

    Give example what China has banned entire categories of goods?

    Do you understand what is currency manipulating for trade advantage & tariff? You simply has no basic knowledge.

    When a currency is weaken, it helps their export cheaper and competitive. This also help local companies report higher profits in domestic currency. But import become expensive in USD exch rate term, such as raw materials & oil importing. Every country is doing that to their best advantage.

    Only US hedgmon mantra is do what i say, not what i do. US is the apex in currency manipulating with UK, Oz. If they go to war required much procurement, it simply raise its value to buy cheap, swinging up to 30% or more by their financial dominating role. When it wants to compete, it drop free fall. IMF has been long complaining Japan is manipulating Yen.

    Pls enlighten me how weakening a currency can erect large tariffs for China import to get advantage?

    the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China

    You are talking without slightest basic knowledge. US has been in bottom of FDI to China for past few decades, blocking most investment in both ways and erect embargo on technology strictly. Top few FDI has always been consistently HK, Spore, Taiwan, Asia…. making the lion share of over 60~80%. Pls get yourself educate.

    In 1990′s, i had a few inches thick booklet from US trade Ministry to comply for exporting to China, from obsolete 286 PC to cell phone and anything with slight modern technology were banned. This embargo applied globally, any company caught exporting to a long list of banned countries(incl China, Iran, India,…) will be denied US market access. Till today, US is still all way out to block China access to every high technology.

    It is your capitalists greed that hollow out US manufacturing to exploit China cheap labour & slack pollution control hence low energy cost with coal power. Cheaper cost hence higher profits when imported back for US market, thus the high trade deficit that Trumps is blaming stupidly.

    US has always collaborated with EU & Japan from start to block China access to all technoloy. But China market is so huge with its rapid growth, EU & Jp have been unable to resist to sell whatever they could to prop their sluggish economy.

    Still China is blocked from accessing the higher technology, such as high end semiconductor & fab. That’s why China decided to produce the entire supply & manufacturing chain themselves to be independent from US threat(eg. Blockage of Intel CPU, Quadcom chip use by all smart phone).

    The momentum of China rise has already reach a level of no turning back. Don’t whine & blame foolishly.

    India is now getting all the West & Jp FDI, free technology transfer, even nuclear, military, steel industry, car industry, everything India wish so to counter China, but have you see a successful India like China? No, why?

    So are many countries like EU, Mexico, Latin America, ME & Asia getting complete free access to capital, technology & market are doing badly, eg Greece, Spain, Italy,…only Germany is stella. There are more factors than you imagine.

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    • Replies: @denk

    Still China is blocked from accessing the higher technology, such as high end semiconductor & fab. That’s why China decided to produce the entire supply & manufacturing chain themselves to be independent from US threat(eg. Blockage of Intel CPU, Quadcom chip use by all smart phone).

    The momentum of China rise has already reach a level of no turning back. Don’t whine & blame foolishly.

    India is now getting all the West & Jp FDI, free technology transfer, even nuclear, military, steel industry, car industry, everything India wish so to counter China
     
    But according to cadre, China is the TPTB's chosen one !

    hehehehe
    , @CalDre

    It seem you are utterly ignorant in business trade that you are ranting so much with unsubstantiated facts.
     
    You've substantiated nothing. You just make absurd statements.

    Pls enlighten me how weakening a currency can erect large tariffs for China import to get advantage?
     
    It's obvious to anyone with any understanding of economics. Because China devalues the remnimbi, to 1/4th its actual value, a Chinese employer pays its employees $3 / hour instead of $12 / hour. For example if Chinese salary is 18 yuan/hour, at exchange rate of 6 yuan/dollar, the wage is $3/hr. But if exchange rate were properly at 1.5 yuan / dollar, the wage would be $12 / hr. Can you follow that, or did I lose you in the complexity of it all? You don't seem too bright.

    Now, let's see how that plays out. Let's say American company wants to compete with Chinese company. Due to currency manipulation, Chinese company pays $3/hr to employees, but US company has to pay $12/hr. So how can US company compete with Chinese company? It obviously can't.

    Same is true with Chinese exports. China can export the same product for much cheaper, because labor costs are cheaper.

    You know what, this is all so basic, I wish I had time to respond to your comments, but, I tire of debating two ignorant China trolls.
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  63. Joe Wong says:
    @CalDre

    Joint ventures do generally encourage technology transfer, but its usually a matter of negotiation more than anything else.
     
    First of all, the "forced tech transfers" are a more recent development, and have been implemented because China has already stolen all it can without having access to the underlying technology documents (i.e., blueprints, CAD files, etc.). Before that China would just steal the technology outright, but was limited to what could be reverse engineered or taken from that portion of the blue prints necessary for production, which does impose some significant limitations on technology theft.

    I can give you an anecdote about "traditional" Chinese technology theft (while this is ubiquitous, but I am using an anecdote). In second- and third-world countries you can buy so-called "gray market" Samsung Galaxies. In my case I purchased an S5 in an East European country some years ago. Everything looked official. All the parts were the exact same as the official ones. All the apps were the exact same as for a real S5. The phone claimed to be a Samsung. But the cost was much lower, about one-third of a real S5. The merchant told me it was cheaper because it was meant to be sold in the third-world but was just illegally imported into that country (so-called "gray market goods").

    So I took it home but, lo and behold, it would not work with Samsung's desktop application. After some calls to Samsung support, I learned that this phone was not actually a Samsung phone..

    But let's be clear about this: aside from being unauthorized, it was an exact duplicate of an S5. All of the parts were exactly the same. Do you know how much money it costs to design and assemble the touch-screen, the memory chips, the processor, the video card, the Bluetooth chips, etc., etc.? Literally there are hundreds of billions of dollars invested in this. And if someone was going to invest this kind of money, they would not make illegal phones and sell them for 1-34d the price for which Samsung makes them (and even at Samsung's price, they make a very small profit, so selling at 2/3rd discount means huge losses).

    So it is obvious what they did. The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a "third shift", at night, where they would produce these "gray market" goods, and sell them, at a huge profit to them, because of course they paid none of the development costs of these devices.

    Yes this is an anecdote but it is also true that this is a very widespread phenomenon. This so-called "theft" of intellectual property.

    But the theft goes much further than that, the Chinese reverse engineer all of the diagrams and devices, despite agreements with manufacturers not to do so, and then make their own copies, having saved countless billions in R&D costs. For example when China wanted to build high-speed rail, it asked for proposals, including sample locomotive, from all the world's leading train manufacturers. When they supplied them, China quickly reverse engineered them (despite agreements not to) and stole all the technology, then built their own high-speed train.

    The currency manipulation - a PPP analysis indicates that China's currency is undervalued by a factor of 4 (i.e., if China did not manipulate its currency, its exports would cost 4 times as much as they do now). This is equivalent to a 75% tariff on all foreign goods.

    These of course are the two by far largest rules violations by China. Each violation is of massive, massive proportions and affects virtually every category of goods.

    These examples go on forever. It is China's modus operandi.


    China certainly games the system – and for that matter so does everyone else, but the idea that it just ignores the rules is silly.
     
    It doesn't just ignore them, it actively violates them. The currency manipulation is a centralized planning tool used by the Communist Party. The IP theft is also a centralized tool as Chinese courts refuse to enforce the IP rules and let Chinese companies "steal" (I put this in quotes only because it is well-known that China steals IP so in a way the foreign manufacturers consent to this taking, making it not theft, more on that in another post in this thread) IP.

    “Technology Transfer” is the West and Japanese invention in the 60s to gloss over their rip-off the developing nations with their obsolete technologies and production facilities. One of the common practice of technology transfer is altering the spec of working process to lower standard in the transfer, such as lowering the finishing requirements of critical parts so the end products produced by the transferree will never work as smoothly and as long as the originals.

    The other trick is to increase the requirements of uncritical parts, so the transferree will always have higher production costs but inferior products. The technology transfer is a disguised plot to hinder and delay the technology development in the recipient nations.

    It is known practice that the pro sports in the West scalping their own tickets. It is also well known the foreign companies selling their products on grey markets to avoid taxes then blame China for IP thief. If the Samsung you got was identical from the real one it must be made by Samsung and scalping its own products to avoid taxes or someone was pocketing money unethically. Because all major brands control their parts’ quantities from source with onsite monitoring, it is not possible for third parties to acquire their parts.

    You are practicing “inquisition” and burning Chinese reputation on the stake. The American and their lackeys are losing technologies competition, it is pathetic they are also losing their integrity and sportsmanship. What you are trolling here is an utterly disgusting display of uneducated red neck colonial trait.

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  64. TT says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Aren't you a white man?

    Why don't you take your own side?

    You should be grateful that there are still sane whites like Godfrey around to tell you the Hard Truths.

    If you still yearn to live in all sinophobe nonsense & lies your msm sewage feed you that backward China is gonna collapse in its debt, then be prepared for your real sorry state(well, its already happened in West, too late). But at least you can still prepare yourself or children to learn Mandarine for better job in Chinese era.

    Its the same deluded hubris that make mighty USM fall behind Russia military now.

    Buried your head in the sand, your ass is guaranteed exposed.

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  65. denk says:
    @CalDre

    In other words, you don’t know, and you are just making something up to “explain” why China doesn’t lose more cases in the WTO tribunal
     
    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn't. That itself is determinative.

    For example, in the US today, there are millions of people smoking marijuana and buying it in stores, even though it is illegal under federal law. Now you will tell me these users are not breaking the rules, just because they are not prosecuted? And what about the ten million illegals working in jobs in the US, illegally. They are not breaking the rules, because they are not put in prison?

    Really your argument makes no sense. China doesn't lose cases for the simple reason that US does not bring cases. Your assumption that because US does not bring cases, there are no violations, is absolutely stupid. American corporations have brought IP theft cases in China, but as a matter of policy, the judges, who are all Communist Party members, rule against the foreign corporations. It is systemic, organized theft.


    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone.
     
    As I have already noted, you are bringing up trivialities. There are two major drivers of US-China trade/investment that absolutely dwarf everything else: Chinese currency manipulation (by pegging to the dollar and imposing strict capital flow controls), and rampant Chinese theft of intellectual property. Those massive and continuous rules violations are thousands of times more important in real life then the minor stuff you whine on about.

    people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been totally robbed.
     
    Anyone with half a brain, which apparently excludes you, can see that China has made out like bandits, literally, from the trade agreements.

    China has made out like bandits,

    [sic]

    That’d be fukusI[ndia] M.O. down to a T…

    fukusI have been stalking Chinese investments all over the world, sabotaging it with Arm twisting, disinfo, FF, terrorism, you name it,
    every dirty tricks in CIA’s book.

    Gawd knows Chinese companies must have been hemorrhaging monies in these past decades ; courtesy of fukusI shenanigans.

    Exhibit Libya,

    ‘US-led military adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and across sub-Saharan Africa are aimed at thwarting China’s economic expansion, especially because Chinese partnerships have been welcomed in such countries. The NATO-induced regime change last year in Libya alone is reckoned to have cost China billions of dollars in oil and infrastructure investments. The same US game plan is unfolding covertly in Syria and Iran, with the Western powers and their Arab, Turk and Israeli allies waging a criminal war of state-sponsored terrorism and destabilisation.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-wired-for-war-why-syria-could-spell-world-catastrophe/32150

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  66. denk says:
    @TT
    It seem you are utterly ignorant in business trade that you are ranting so much with unsubstantiated facts. I truly doubt you ever visited China, let alone been in trade line or ever trade with China.

    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government.
     
    WTO is a English based rules body writen by West all to Anglo-American advantage, what rule do you still want, in Chinese? Its US & EU refusing to play by rule now to give China economy market as agreed.

    Every country can imposed its own domestic rules, its different from trade & tariff import/export fairness. Didn't US blocked most acquisition of China on security reason?

    Malaysia also required majority Malays ownership, so are many countries, all setting limitation on various sector for protection. WTO allowed different countries to adjust within a time frame. But China got the worst restriction by WTO unfair rules as this article rightly pointed out.

    How is IP stolen wholesale frequently by gov? Give example & evidence. Every developing country also embarked on similar path, Jp, Korea, Taiwan & Asean too, by copying first, then developing, finally innovate. Only when China find protecting IP is to its advantage like the developed countries with plenty of patents will it find incentive to prosecute infringement diligently, which is happening now.

    China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren’t banned.
     
    Give example what China has banned entire categories of goods?

    Do you understand what is currency manipulating for trade advantage & tariff? You simply has no basic knowledge.

    When a currency is weaken, it helps their export cheaper and competitive. This also help local companies report higher profits in domestic currency. But import become expensive in USD exch rate term, such as raw materials & oil importing. Every country is doing that to their best advantage.

    Only US hedgmon mantra is do what i say, not what i do. US is the apex in currency manipulating with UK, Oz. If they go to war required much procurement, it simply raise its value to buy cheap, swinging up to 30% or more by their financial dominating role. When it wants to compete, it drop free fall. IMF has been long complaining Japan is manipulating Yen.

    Pls enlighten me how weakening a currency can erect large tariffs for China import to get advantage?

    the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China
     
    You are talking without slightest basic knowledge. US has been in bottom of FDI to China for past few decades, blocking most investment in both ways and erect embargo on technology strictly. Top few FDI has always been consistently HK, Spore, Taiwan, Asia.... making the lion share of over 60~80%. Pls get yourself educate.

    In 1990's, i had a few inches thick booklet from US trade Ministry to comply for exporting to China, from obsolete 286 PC to cell phone and anything with slight modern technology were banned. This embargo applied globally, any company caught exporting to a long list of banned countries(incl China, Iran, India,...) will be denied US market access. Till today, US is still all way out to block China access to every high technology.

    It is your capitalists greed that hollow out US manufacturing to exploit China cheap labour & slack pollution control hence low energy cost with coal power. Cheaper cost hence higher profits when imported back for US market, thus the high trade deficit that Trumps is blaming stupidly.

    US has always collaborated with EU & Japan from start to block China access to all technoloy. But China market is so huge with its rapid growth, EU & Jp have been unable to resist to sell whatever they could to prop their sluggish economy.

    Still China is blocked from accessing the higher technology, such as high end semiconductor & fab. That's why China decided to produce the entire supply & manufacturing chain themselves to be independent from US threat(eg. Blockage of Intel CPU, Quadcom chip use by all smart phone).

    The momentum of China rise has already reach a level of no turning back. Don't whine & blame foolishly.

    India is now getting all the West & Jp FDI, free technology transfer, even nuclear, military, steel industry, car industry, everything India wish so to counter China, but have you see a successful India like China? No, why?

    So are many countries like EU, Mexico, Latin America, ME & Asia getting complete free access to capital, technology & market are doing badly, eg Greece, Spain, Italy,...only Germany is stella. There are more factors than you imagine.

    Still China is blocked from accessing the higher technology, such as high end semiconductor & fab. That’s why China decided to produce the entire supply & manufacturing chain themselves to be independent from US threat(eg. Blockage of Intel CPU, Quadcom chip use by all smart phone).

    The momentum of China rise has already reach a level of no turning back. Don’t whine & blame foolishly.

    India is now getting all the West & Jp FDI, free technology transfer, even nuclear, military, steel industry, car industry, everything India wish so to counter China

    But according to cadre, China is the TPTB’s chosen one !

    hehehehe

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    • Replies: @TT
    Cadre is whining bcos he is seeing how the vultures of bankers & MIC are screwing his country up but feel helpless like many good Americans. Blame China & Russia.

    But Americans elected their own Potus & representative, congressmen, they have themselves to answer for it.

    TPTB = ?

    Btw I think Malla has really got hold by RAW...you know where he is locked up? hehehehe
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  67. TT says:
    @CalDre

    US loved to have China in WTO so that it can rape China outright with unequal terms.
     
    The only ones getting raped are American workers. Those who benefit: the globalist oligarchs, the Chinese Communist Party, and the Chinese worker.

    Again, you are trying to make propaganda about pointless things. Try to look at the forest, with objectivity. How have Chinese living standards changed since 2001, and how have American? This alone answers all the questions. Now again if you want to go into details, the two primary mechanisms that have been used to accomplish this is Chinese currency manipulation and Chinese intellectual property theft.

    But also there are constant WTO rules violations. I have had many clients who have tried to do business in China and I know how China constantly violates rules. Anybody doing business with China knows this, regardless of you writing utter nonsense about "Opium wars".


    US is never a charitable or merciful country but lead by vultures bankers & greedy MIC
     
    Agreed, but these bankers and MIC are not Americans, they are globalist oligarchs. They don't care one iota about Americans. I agree that they are evil, just look at my post history on Unz, I am constantly critiquing them harshly as I believe they are traitors to America and Americans.

    But that does not make your claims about trade true.

    Sorry, you are confusing US (political leaders you elected that charted US fate) with average Americans(welfare).

    US raped China with WTO. Its your capitalist, bankers, MIC & politicians that raped Americans by hollowing out manufacturing and flooding of cheap migrants labour, throwing $T in endless wars instead of rebuild aging infra structures.

    While i find most average Americans lovely( i got one white American in my family), but US foreign policies & way of conducting business are evil to core to my detest.

    Is China to be blamed for US declination? Well at least your one stupid congressman is complaining that to me, how Asia cheap labour robbed US blind. But its just capitalism working in magic, max profit at min cost, at expense of US national interest. Without China, Asia will still get the job transfer but slower.

    But also there are constant WTO rules violations. I have had many clients who have tried to do business in China and I know how China constantly violates rules. Anybody doing business with China knows this, regardless of you writing utter nonsense about “Opium wars”.

    That’s reality of life, whether in China or elsewhere you invest, high return = high risk,.. my country got so many bankruptcy and national projects cheated in China during Jiang’s corrupted era. But in Pres Xi time, seem working well.

    It seems Germans, Jp, Koreans, Asians are doing well in China. But arrogant country like US, UK & Fr are not, lot of reflection required.

    China is very attractive huge market, only if you get the right partner. The beauty of Oriental… hehehehe

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  68. TT says:
    @fnn
    What do our Chinese masters plan to do about the more-or-less impending destruction of the planet?:

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pesticides-have-led-catastrophic-decline-frances-bird-populations-180968562/
    http://sustyvibes.com/insect-bird-populations-declining-dramatically-germany/
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/where-have-all-insects-gone
    https://e360.yale.edu/digest/three-decade-survey-shows-drastic-decline-in-insect-populations

    Humans and livestock are now 97% of land-air vertebrate biomass.
    ► Our crop and pasture lands caused 80% of all land vertebrate species extinctions. https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/311m7d/collapse_data_cheat_sheet/
    EUROPE GETS 60% OF ITS "RENEWABLE ENERGY" BY BURNING TREES https://www.newscientist.com/article/2114993-europes-green-energy-policy-is-a-disaster-for-the-environment/

    From what i read if correct, under Pres Xi & his team seem to recognize & have good vision for some global problems, with aggressive state policies on:

    1. Organic farming with state subsidy to encourage farmers switching from unsustainable commercial farming that pollute land & water. (50% of global pesticides & Monsanto weed killers are sprayed in China. 60% of their staple food is Monsanto GMO or foreign imported. Chemical Fertilizers abusing is ruined agri land.)

    2. Reforestation in massive scale under state program.

    3. Greenify deserts with plantation using newly innovated methods. They pour some sticky gel on desert sands to make it like soil, so water can retain & plants grown successfully.

    4. Pollution reduction program at most impressive rate according to some articles, achieving what US took 10yrs with economy declination to get.

    5. World most aggressive renewal green energy policies, world largest hydropower, solar, wind energy, natural burning coal pits thermal tapping, EV, largest dev of pebble nuclear power plants(green?)..

    6. Extensive protection of extinct risk animals & creatures. Even preventing hunters from setting nets to catch migrating birds in recent news i read.

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  69. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/89ones/trump_we_are_not_in_a_trade_war_with_china_we/dwst3bt/

    I just read this on reddit about what china had to do to gain entry to the WTO. and the delusional guy he was talking to.

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  70. TT says:
    @denk

    Still China is blocked from accessing the higher technology, such as high end semiconductor & fab. That’s why China decided to produce the entire supply & manufacturing chain themselves to be independent from US threat(eg. Blockage of Intel CPU, Quadcom chip use by all smart phone).

    The momentum of China rise has already reach a level of no turning back. Don’t whine & blame foolishly.

    India is now getting all the West & Jp FDI, free technology transfer, even nuclear, military, steel industry, car industry, everything India wish so to counter China
     
    But according to cadre, China is the TPTB's chosen one !

    hehehehe

    Cadre is whining bcos he is seeing how the vultures of bankers & MIC are screwing his country up but feel helpless like many good Americans. Blame China & Russia.

    But Americans elected their own Potus & representative, congressmen, they have themselves to answer for it.

    TPTB = ?

    Btw I think Malla has really got hold by RAW…you know where he is locked up? hehehehe

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Isn't CalDre = Malla?
    , @CalDre
    I'm not whining, you're just posting garbage.

    Bad as US government is, it's much better than China's totalitarian police state. I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China's case, you have no say whatsoever.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country! You have no room to talk, and Joe Wong is a particular reprehensible Communist worm.
    , @denk
    Back from zhougong.

    TPTB = The power that be = the deep state
    = master of universe.....

    Caldre and his ilks blame it all on the Jews, but
    its really a wasp/zio/Indian cabal, aka fukusI.

    Malla might be rotting in some Indian cell now,
    It did cross my mind Caldre = Malla, but his rant on Tibet, flg , Mao reeks of an Indian troll.

    hehehhe
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  71. Vidi says:
    @CalDre

    In other words, you don’t know, and you are just making something up to “explain” why China doesn’t lose more cases in the WTO tribunal
     
    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn't. That itself is determinative.

    For example, in the US today, there are millions of people smoking marijuana and buying it in stores, even though it is illegal under federal law. Now you will tell me these users are not breaking the rules, just because they are not prosecuted? And what about the ten million illegals working in jobs in the US, illegally. They are not breaking the rules, because they are not put in prison?

    Really your argument makes no sense. China doesn't lose cases for the simple reason that US does not bring cases. Your assumption that because US does not bring cases, there are no violations, is absolutely stupid. American corporations have brought IP theft cases in China, but as a matter of policy, the judges, who are all Communist Party members, rule against the foreign corporations. It is systemic, organized theft.


    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone.
     
    As I have already noted, you are bringing up trivialities. There are two major drivers of US-China trade/investment that absolutely dwarf everything else: Chinese currency manipulation (by pegging to the dollar and imposing strict capital flow controls), and rampant Chinese theft of intellectual property. Those massive and continuous rules violations are thousands of times more important in real life then the minor stuff you whine on about.

    people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been totally robbed.
     
    Anyone with half a brain, which apparently excludes you, can see that China has made out like bandits, literally, from the trade agreements.

    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn’t. That itself is determinative.

    The US doesn’t take more action in the WTO tribunal because it knows it will lose.

    The extract I quoted from the Branstetter and Lardy paper makes it clear that the US did all it could to rig the WTO against the Chinese. The conditions imposed were those the U.S. wanted, so it has no right to whine about them now.

    (By the way, the WTO does not govern exchange rates. If it did, the rest of the world would be suing the U.S. for devaluing the dollar.)

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    • Replies: @CalDre

    The US doesn’t take more action in the WTO tribunal because it knows it will lose.
     
    We'll agree to disagree.

    The extract I quoted from the Branstetter and Lardy paper makes it clear that the US did all it could to rig the WTO against the Chinese.
     
    Why would I care what Branstetter and Lardy say? In any event it is a very generalized statement, it does not give specific instances of which conditions were more stringent or commitments more liberal, or how so. Hence there is no basis to judge their conclusions without comparing every country's accession stipulations word for word. In short, their research is, at best, shoddy.

    (By the way, the WTO does not govern exchange rates. If it did, the rest of the world would be suing the U.S. for devaluing the dollar.)
     
    But it does have currency manipulation rules, though there is debate about whether China's particular manipulation violates them. However the US can unilaterally respond to the currency manipulation, it just has chosen not to.

    The conditions imposed were those the U.S. wanted, so it has no right to whine about them now.
     
    False, they were negotiated. And as I've mentioned numerous times, China massively violates the agreements with currency manipulation and IP theft (including through bribery and cyber crimes, among other methods).
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  72. Joe Wong says:
    @TT
    Cadre is whining bcos he is seeing how the vultures of bankers & MIC are screwing his country up but feel helpless like many good Americans. Blame China & Russia.

    But Americans elected their own Potus & representative, congressmen, they have themselves to answer for it.

    TPTB = ?

    Btw I think Malla has really got hold by RAW...you know where he is locked up? hehehehe

    Isn’t CalDre = Malla?

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    • Replies: @TT
    Like Denk said, Malla is much brighter & factual than CalDre. To equate them is an insult to Malla... it will be fun to have Malla in debate. He is White nationalist Hindu high caste Indian who admire China & West, a weird combination... hehehehe
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  73. TT says:
    @CalDre

    Joint ventures do generally encourage technology transfer, but its usually a matter of negotiation more than anything else.
     
    First of all, the "forced tech transfers" are a more recent development, and have been implemented because China has already stolen all it can without having access to the underlying technology documents (i.e., blueprints, CAD files, etc.). Before that China would just steal the technology outright, but was limited to what could be reverse engineered or taken from that portion of the blue prints necessary for production, which does impose some significant limitations on technology theft.

    I can give you an anecdote about "traditional" Chinese technology theft (while this is ubiquitous, but I am using an anecdote). In second- and third-world countries you can buy so-called "gray market" Samsung Galaxies. In my case I purchased an S5 in an East European country some years ago. Everything looked official. All the parts were the exact same as the official ones. All the apps were the exact same as for a real S5. The phone claimed to be a Samsung. But the cost was much lower, about one-third of a real S5. The merchant told me it was cheaper because it was meant to be sold in the third-world but was just illegally imported into that country (so-called "gray market goods").

    So I took it home but, lo and behold, it would not work with Samsung's desktop application. After some calls to Samsung support, I learned that this phone was not actually a Samsung phone..

    But let's be clear about this: aside from being unauthorized, it was an exact duplicate of an S5. All of the parts were exactly the same. Do you know how much money it costs to design and assemble the touch-screen, the memory chips, the processor, the video card, the Bluetooth chips, etc., etc.? Literally there are hundreds of billions of dollars invested in this. And if someone was going to invest this kind of money, they would not make illegal phones and sell them for 1-34d the price for which Samsung makes them (and even at Samsung's price, they make a very small profit, so selling at 2/3rd discount means huge losses).

    So it is obvious what they did. The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a "third shift", at night, where they would produce these "gray market" goods, and sell them, at a huge profit to them, because of course they paid none of the development costs of these devices.

    Yes this is an anecdote but it is also true that this is a very widespread phenomenon. This so-called "theft" of intellectual property.

    But the theft goes much further than that, the Chinese reverse engineer all of the diagrams and devices, despite agreements with manufacturers not to do so, and then make their own copies, having saved countless billions in R&D costs. For example when China wanted to build high-speed rail, it asked for proposals, including sample locomotive, from all the world's leading train manufacturers. When they supplied them, China quickly reverse engineered them (despite agreements not to) and stole all the technology, then built their own high-speed train.

    The currency manipulation - a PPP analysis indicates that China's currency is undervalued by a factor of 4 (i.e., if China did not manipulate its currency, its exports would cost 4 times as much as they do now). This is equivalent to a 75% tariff on all foreign goods.

    These of course are the two by far largest rules violations by China. Each violation is of massive, massive proportions and affects virtually every category of goods.

    These examples go on forever. It is China's modus operandi.


    China certainly games the system – and for that matter so does everyone else, but the idea that it just ignores the rules is silly.
     
    It doesn't just ignore them, it actively violates them. The currency manipulation is a centralized planning tool used by the Communist Party. The IP theft is also a centralized tool as Chinese courts refuse to enforce the IP rules and let Chinese companies "steal" (I put this in quotes only because it is well-known that China steals IP so in a way the foreign manufacturers consent to this taking, making it not theft, more on that in another post in this thread) IP.

    First of all, the “forced tech transfers” are a more recent development, ….could be reverse engineered … some significant limitations on technology theft.

    Smart Chinese, they are robbing the bandits blind… hehehehe

    For long time China has been reversed engineering whatever they could, in very innovative ways i found. Even in semiconductor, they could slice the die layer by layer to duplicate the design. They even duplicated SU-27 to Russia dismay.

    In second- and third-world countries… “gray market” Samsung Galaxies. …exact same as for a real S5. The phone claimed to be a Samsung…

    Its a Samsung genuine, but produce in China for lower markets & China domestic. Its different in quality & specs compare to make in Korea, its lighter with lower quality screen, slower response & no OTG USB feature, come with 2SIM slots sometimes. Its common now selling by importer even in higher market. You are speculating & misguided.

    The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a “third shift”, at night, where they would produce these “gray market” goods

    These factories are very tightly audited & competitive, like foxcomm, producing iphone, Xiaomi, HP, lot of big US brands. They run 3 shifts, no time for such risk.

    But its not too difficult to OEM these phone, usually they are exported under no brand or some funny brand to avoid export problem, selling at $100~200.

    Some factories producing low tech goods eg Nike shoes, they might do that in 3rd shifts with house brand using same quality materials & design which i find quite good. The fake brand quality is usually quite poor at 10% price.

    For example when China wanted to build high-speed rail, … stole all the technology, then built their own high-speed train.

    China indigenous FSR is best now. To able to digest a high tech & innovate from there is not theft as you kept shrieking.

    Jp & Korea, Taiwan & everyone are all doing the same things. Some are so afraid to sell high tech equipment to Korea bcos they perfected their ability to come out a competitive one very fast. That’s how the world work, the Americans & Europeans are doing the same, but they are already in highest level so few to copy but to innovate.

    When China surpass West & Jp in technology like Huawei, you will see the reverse.

    In fact the west are also violating many Asia small companies IP blatantly, but they are too powerful to be sued, eg Trek2000 flash technology, Creative MP3 & sound A/D IP,…

    The currency manipulation – a PPP analysis indicates that China’s currency is undervalued by a factor of 4 (i.e., if China did not manipulate its currency, its exports would cost 4 times as much as they do now). This is equivalent to a 75% tariff on all foreign goods.

    Every countries are manipulating their currency to best serve their nation interest. You should shout at everyone, starting from the biggest G7 bandits, the West. 4x is foolish estimation, so China GDP should be 11T x4=44T now?

    China imported most energy & parts for production, and export is only 19% of GDP. How you derive 75% tariff? To weaken own currency to buy at 4x price is ridiculous . Tariffs is charged on selected imported goods to artificially inflate their price so to protect own domestic high production cost like US. This don’t work vice versa by undervalued one currency.

    Only when China economy is matured, Yuan may strengthen 4x, then its reverse role of what US hedgmon enjoy, buying spree by printing $.

    Chinese courts refuse to enforce the IP rules and let Chinese companies “steal”

    It would be foolish for China court to enforce foreign IP diligently before reaching parity with West, like my country did costing our development dearly. Its better for foreign companies to strike a royalty deals with Chinese for using their IP to get as some profit.

    The poors are robbing the biggest bandits… hehehehe still the Chinese don’t rob globally by gunboats & financial raid like your country, blood for oil.

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  74. CalDre says:
    @TT
    Cadre is whining bcos he is seeing how the vultures of bankers & MIC are screwing his country up but feel helpless like many good Americans. Blame China & Russia.

    But Americans elected their own Potus & representative, congressmen, they have themselves to answer for it.

    TPTB = ?

    Btw I think Malla has really got hold by RAW...you know where he is locked up? hehehehe

    I’m not whining, you’re just posting garbage.

    Bad as US government is, it’s much better than China’s totalitarian police state. I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China’s case, you have no say whatsoever.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country! You have no room to talk, and Joe Wong is a particular reprehensible Communist worm.

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    • Replies: @TT
    Wow, where my posting has hurt you?

    Im merely telling Denk i feel for the pain of gd Americans that their once great country is badly screwed by their greedy gov. Read again, pal. Im not alone to say you are whining in your posts.

    im not from China to category reply your vehement attack to China. But i will chose China over US leaders at any means. Pls keep your great gov, less the malignant cancer spread.

    Btw, my country has just sent a team to learn from China AI cashless digital system. I think open face recognition system is great for crime & terrorism control you might afraid, but be assured its better than illegal Prism & 5eyes exposed by Snowden.

    Falungong seems bad, they are lying to undermine China just like you in my country with US embassy support. It look like a CIA asset to subvert, likely my gov has banned it as i don't see their activity much.

    And northern Tibet free from CIA subversion now was very prosperous & beautiful under China boot, hope to visit it using their new FSR. Southern Tibet is still under India rape with CIA humanity effort.

    I started to find curiosity in Mao after reading Mr Robert postings, why would ten of millions Chinese pay respect to Mao annually if he is such evil painted by pathogenic lying West, so i might try to read more about him.

    And US is massacring many millions innocents everywhere till now, spending all their time in endless aggression wars and is rated No1 Threat by the world. I am very convince it had slaughtered more than 30M innocents globally. You must be so proud of your country No1 killing achievements to raise it here. You are also No1 in violent, crimes, Opiods abusing, 1000 military bases, most wars,...long list of great achievements. Sure your elected Trumps will add more to those records to make America great.
    , @denk

    Bad as US government is, it’s much better than China’s totalitarian police state.
     
    So you'r MSM addict !

    Coming from murikka thats a bit rich !
    Chinese cops didnt even have to carry sidearms like in USA, . All that changed after the US sponsored Uighur militants [1]launched a torrent of deadly attacks all over China in 2015/6.

    Thank you USA for exporting your 'democracy' to China !

    Police state !
     
    There are so many murikkans who went to China and got their MSM fed prejudice blown away within a week !
    They marvel at the friendliness of the Chinese cops in contrast with the armed to the teeth, shoot first and ask later goons that passes for cops back home.
    dont take my words for it, you can look it up or better still go there and find out yourself,

    I had wanted to ask that utu kid to make a trip to China instead of holing up in the basement ,watching dubious youtube videos all day and thought he knows China !
    May be you should try the same.


    I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. ]
     
    Whats wrong with a more efficient way to apprehend traffic offenders ?
    its not as if their cops would pull a gun and make you spread eagle on the floor for some minor transgressions like in the USA.

    And you should complain....!

    'Big Brother must probe our crotches because Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab had 80 grams of PETN explosive in his underwear.

    Heading for Detroit, he could board an airliner in Amsterdam even without a passport. Unless there was intervention from higher up, from inside, this would not have been possible. Strange, but many 9/11 “terrorists” also managed to get into the U.S. with improperly handled paperwork

    http://www.unz.com/ldinh/i-feel-you/

    [1]
    unlike the murikkans who branded moslems fighting for independence in Kashmir 'terrorists' while East Turkistan separatists in Xinjiang 'freedom fighters',
    Im a fair man, they'r all militants.
    , @Joe Wong
    You are jealous, resentful and fear of Chinese achievements, in addition you are worrying China’s rise will bring chicken coming home to roost for you guys after all the sickening work your beastly forebears have done to the world not just to the Chinese.

    You should blame your forebears, not the others who have taken the short end of your forebears’ barbarism, or you can blame the ones who brought you to this world too late for you to miss the boat of high time.

    You can have your fucking government,
     
    You too, only you, the White is bombing, killing and waterboarding around the world recklessly and ruthlessly on the fake news since 1642 uninvited, unwanted, and white washing and glossing over their crimes like the ‘god-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘inquisitors’.

    Falun Gong, ISIS, Al-Qaida, slave owner Dalai Lama, cocaine barons and death squads in Latin America, … are all American and Brits creations. Guantanamo Bay proves torture is American forte and they are still the same as their wicked inquisition forebears.

    The West (Europeans and their offshoots like the American, Aussie, etc.) is where is now, because of those hundreds of millions of people all over the world who were robbed and murdered, those who become victims of their very madness of colonialism and orientalism, of the crusades and the slave and Opium trades. Cathedrals and palaces, museums and theatres, train stations – all had been constructed on horrid foundations of bones and blood, and amalgamated by tears.

    The West squandered all the wealth they obtained thru stealing, looting and murdering hundreds of millions of people all over the world in the scrabbling of a dog-eat-dog play rough over the monopoly to plunder the rest of the world through two World Wars, one on the edge of Armageddon, and on the verge of another Armageddon. It proves the West is incapable of bringing peace and prosperity to the mankind because of their flawed culture, civilization and religion. The chaos and suffering of the world in the last few hundreds of years under the dominance the West proves they are a failure.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    How is Falun Gong doing these days?
     
    Last I heard, raising funds for ISIS is illegal in the US too. In fact, compliance with any trade actions against Israel is illegal.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/720?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22S.+720%22%5D%7D&r=1&elqTrackId=B52A0D0F8D779CEEE7C23F40CC76457F&elq=4b2a3945cac54cf78621b84002d5abd4&elqaid=31834&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=

    The bill amends the Export Administration Act of 1979 to declare that it shall be U.S. policy to oppose:

    1)requests by foreign countries to impose restrictive practices or boycotts against other countries friendly to the United States or against U.S. persons; and

    2)restrictive trade practices or boycotts fostered or imposed by an international governmental organization, or requests to impose such practices or boycotts, against Israel.

    The bill prohibits any U.S. person engaged interstate or foreign commerce from supporting:

    1)any request by a foreign country to impose any boycott against a country that is friendly to the United States and that is not itself the object of any form of boycott pursuant to United States law or regulation, or

    2)any boycott fostered or imposed by any international governmental organization against Israel or any request by any international governmental organization to impose such a boycott.
     
    , @Vidi

    Bad as US government is, it’s much better than China’s totalitarian police state.
     
    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_China

    The difference is even more impressive when you consider how many more people live in China, and how much poorer they are. I don't think Americans have any right to accuse any other country of having a "police state".

    I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now.
     
    Sigh. It's a scandal what Americans don't know about their own country:

    21 states, the District of Columbia and the U.S. Virgin Islands have enacted laws permitting some form of red light camera use, with 9 states and the District of Columbia fully permitting use, and 12 states and the Virgin Islands allowing limited use.
     
    https://www.ghsa.org/state-laws/issues/speed-and-red-light-cameras

    Of course, the ignorance of Americans doesn't prevent them from hurling abuse at other countries.
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  75. CalDre says:
    @TT
    It seem you are utterly ignorant in business trade that you are ranting so much with unsubstantiated facts. I truly doubt you ever visited China, let alone been in trade line or ever trade with China.

    China never, ever played by the rules. Foreign ownership is not permitted. Intellectual property is stolen wholesale, quite frequently by the government.
     
    WTO is a English based rules body writen by West all to Anglo-American advantage, what rule do you still want, in Chinese? Its US & EU refusing to play by rule now to give China economy market as agreed.

    Every country can imposed its own domestic rules, its different from trade & tariff import/export fairness. Didn't US blocked most acquisition of China on security reason?

    Malaysia also required majority Malays ownership, so are many countries, all setting limitation on various sector for protection. WTO allowed different countries to adjust within a time frame. But China got the worst restriction by WTO unfair rules as this article rightly pointed out.

    How is IP stolen wholesale frequently by gov? Give example & evidence. Every developing country also embarked on similar path, Jp, Korea, Taiwan & Asean too, by copying first, then developing, finally innovate. Only when China find protecting IP is to its advantage like the developed countries with plenty of patents will it find incentive to prosecute infringement diligently, which is happening now.

    China gamed the lack of ability to impose tariffs by banning entire categories of goods, and manipulating its currency to effectively erect a large tariff on all goods that weren’t banned.
     
    Give example what China has banned entire categories of goods?

    Do you understand what is currency manipulating for trade advantage & tariff? You simply has no basic knowledge.

    When a currency is weaken, it helps their export cheaper and competitive. This also help local companies report higher profits in domestic currency. But import become expensive in USD exch rate term, such as raw materials & oil importing. Every country is doing that to their best advantage.

    Only US hedgmon mantra is do what i say, not what i do. US is the apex in currency manipulating with UK, Oz. If they go to war required much procurement, it simply raise its value to buy cheap, swinging up to 30% or more by their financial dominating role. When it wants to compete, it drop free fall. IMF has been long complaining Japan is manipulating Yen.

    Pls enlighten me how weakening a currency can erect large tariffs for China import to get advantage?

    the only reason China succeeded is because the Western oligarchs, instigated by the ((bankers)), moved massive amounts of US capital and technology to China
     
    You are talking without slightest basic knowledge. US has been in bottom of FDI to China for past few decades, blocking most investment in both ways and erect embargo on technology strictly. Top few FDI has always been consistently HK, Spore, Taiwan, Asia.... making the lion share of over 60~80%. Pls get yourself educate.

    In 1990's, i had a few inches thick booklet from US trade Ministry to comply for exporting to China, from obsolete 286 PC to cell phone and anything with slight modern technology were banned. This embargo applied globally, any company caught exporting to a long list of banned countries(incl China, Iran, India,...) will be denied US market access. Till today, US is still all way out to block China access to every high technology.

    It is your capitalists greed that hollow out US manufacturing to exploit China cheap labour & slack pollution control hence low energy cost with coal power. Cheaper cost hence higher profits when imported back for US market, thus the high trade deficit that Trumps is blaming stupidly.

    US has always collaborated with EU & Japan from start to block China access to all technoloy. But China market is so huge with its rapid growth, EU & Jp have been unable to resist to sell whatever they could to prop their sluggish economy.

    Still China is blocked from accessing the higher technology, such as high end semiconductor & fab. That's why China decided to produce the entire supply & manufacturing chain themselves to be independent from US threat(eg. Blockage of Intel CPU, Quadcom chip use by all smart phone).

    The momentum of China rise has already reach a level of no turning back. Don't whine & blame foolishly.

    India is now getting all the West & Jp FDI, free technology transfer, even nuclear, military, steel industry, car industry, everything India wish so to counter China, but have you see a successful India like China? No, why?

    So are many countries like EU, Mexico, Latin America, ME & Asia getting complete free access to capital, technology & market are doing badly, eg Greece, Spain, Italy,...only Germany is stella. There are more factors than you imagine.

    It seem you are utterly ignorant in business trade that you are ranting so much with unsubstantiated facts.

    You’ve substantiated nothing. You just make absurd statements.

    Pls enlighten me how weakening a currency can erect large tariffs for China import to get advantage?

    It’s obvious to anyone with any understanding of economics. Because China devalues the remnimbi, to 1/4th its actual value, a Chinese employer pays its employees $3 / hour instead of $12 / hour. For example if Chinese salary is 18 yuan/hour, at exchange rate of 6 yuan/dollar, the wage is $3/hr. But if exchange rate were properly at 1.5 yuan / dollar, the wage would be $12 / hr. Can you follow that, or did I lose you in the complexity of it all? You don’t seem too bright.

    Now, let’s see how that plays out. Let’s say American company wants to compete with Chinese company. Due to currency manipulation, Chinese company pays $3/hr to employees, but US company has to pay $12/hr. So how can US company compete with Chinese company? It obviously can’t.

    Same is true with Chinese exports. China can export the same product for much cheaper, because labor costs are cheaper.

    You know what, this is all so basic, I wish I had time to respond to your comments, but, I tire of debating two ignorant China trolls.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT

    China devalues the remnimbi, to 1/4th its actual value, a Chinese employer pays its employees $3 / hour instead of $12 / hour. …Can you follow that, or did I lose you in the complexity of it all? You don’t seem too bright.
     
    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.

    When ask how devaluating currency help to put 75% tariffs across all import goods to help China has advantage as you claimed repeatedly, you rant on how to calculate labour cost, how it make export cheaper.

    What a idiot reply you can come out with. How could your clients not lost their business with your stupidity consultation.

    A simplified eg. When UK raised 30% tariff on China steel, it only increased China import steel price by 30% to make it closer to UK high production cost with extra tax revenue.

    If pound devalue 30%, it make every import from every country 30% more expensive without adding tax revenue. It promote export, boost FDI & jobs with cheaper cost, but reduce purchasing power & USD debt repayment ability by 30%. Import energy & material cost go up 30% hence increasing production cost.

    It may cause mild inflation desirable to artificial improve GDP growth for developed country like UK, but a hyper inflation disaster for poor country like Indonesia with high USD foreign debts. Its one tool use by every country to best serve its interest in macro level.

    You have wasted everyone time with your ranting about China & criticism on Mr Robert who do us great service to better understand China.

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  76. CalDre says:
    @Vidi

    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn’t. That itself is determinative.
     
    The US doesn't take more action in the WTO tribunal because it knows it will lose.

    The extract I quoted from the Branstetter and Lardy paper makes it clear that the US did all it could to rig the WTO against the Chinese. The conditions imposed were those the U.S. wanted, so it has no right to whine about them now.

    (By the way, the WTO does not govern exchange rates. If it did, the rest of the world would be suing the U.S. for devaluing the dollar.)

    The US doesn’t take more action in the WTO tribunal because it knows it will lose.

    We’ll agree to disagree.

    The extract I quoted from the Branstetter and Lardy paper makes it clear that the US did all it could to rig the WTO against the Chinese.

    Why would I care what Branstetter and Lardy say? In any event it is a very generalized statement, it does not give specific instances of which conditions were more stringent or commitments more liberal, or how so. Hence there is no basis to judge their conclusions without comparing every country’s accession stipulations word for word. In short, their research is, at best, shoddy.

    (By the way, the WTO does not govern exchange rates. If it did, the rest of the world would be suing the U.S. for devaluing the dollar.)

    But it does have currency manipulation rules, though there is debate about whether China’s particular manipulation violates them. However the US can unilaterally respond to the currency manipulation, it just has chosen not to.

    The conditions imposed were those the U.S. wanted, so it has no right to whine about them now.

    False, they were negotiated. And as I’ve mentioned numerous times, China massively violates the agreements with currency manipulation and IP theft (including through bribery and cyber crimes, among other methods).

    Read More
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  77. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @CalDre

    Joint ventures do generally encourage technology transfer, but its usually a matter of negotiation more than anything else.
     
    First of all, the "forced tech transfers" are a more recent development, and have been implemented because China has already stolen all it can without having access to the underlying technology documents (i.e., blueprints, CAD files, etc.). Before that China would just steal the technology outright, but was limited to what could be reverse engineered or taken from that portion of the blue prints necessary for production, which does impose some significant limitations on technology theft.

    I can give you an anecdote about "traditional" Chinese technology theft (while this is ubiquitous, but I am using an anecdote). In second- and third-world countries you can buy so-called "gray market" Samsung Galaxies. In my case I purchased an S5 in an East European country some years ago. Everything looked official. All the parts were the exact same as the official ones. All the apps were the exact same as for a real S5. The phone claimed to be a Samsung. But the cost was much lower, about one-third of a real S5. The merchant told me it was cheaper because it was meant to be sold in the third-world but was just illegally imported into that country (so-called "gray market goods").

    So I took it home but, lo and behold, it would not work with Samsung's desktop application. After some calls to Samsung support, I learned that this phone was not actually a Samsung phone..

    But let's be clear about this: aside from being unauthorized, it was an exact duplicate of an S5. All of the parts were exactly the same. Do you know how much money it costs to design and assemble the touch-screen, the memory chips, the processor, the video card, the Bluetooth chips, etc., etc.? Literally there are hundreds of billions of dollars invested in this. And if someone was going to invest this kind of money, they would not make illegal phones and sell them for 1-34d the price for which Samsung makes them (and even at Samsung's price, they make a very small profit, so selling at 2/3rd discount means huge losses).

    So it is obvious what they did. The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a "third shift", at night, where they would produce these "gray market" goods, and sell them, at a huge profit to them, because of course they paid none of the development costs of these devices.

    Yes this is an anecdote but it is also true that this is a very widespread phenomenon. This so-called "theft" of intellectual property.

    But the theft goes much further than that, the Chinese reverse engineer all of the diagrams and devices, despite agreements with manufacturers not to do so, and then make their own copies, having saved countless billions in R&D costs. For example when China wanted to build high-speed rail, it asked for proposals, including sample locomotive, from all the world's leading train manufacturers. When they supplied them, China quickly reverse engineered them (despite agreements not to) and stole all the technology, then built their own high-speed train.

    The currency manipulation - a PPP analysis indicates that China's currency is undervalued by a factor of 4 (i.e., if China did not manipulate its currency, its exports would cost 4 times as much as they do now). This is equivalent to a 75% tariff on all foreign goods.

    These of course are the two by far largest rules violations by China. Each violation is of massive, massive proportions and affects virtually every category of goods.

    These examples go on forever. It is China's modus operandi.


    China certainly games the system – and for that matter so does everyone else, but the idea that it just ignores the rules is silly.
     
    It doesn't just ignore them, it actively violates them. The currency manipulation is a centralized planning tool used by the Communist Party. The IP theft is also a centralized tool as Chinese courts refuse to enforce the IP rules and let Chinese companies "steal" (I put this in quotes only because it is well-known that China steals IP so in a way the foreign manufacturers consent to this taking, making it not theft, more on that in another post in this thread) IP.

    I can give you an anecdote about “traditional” Chinese technology theft (while this is ubiquitous, but I am using an anecdote). In second- and third-world countries you can buy so-called “gray market” Samsung Galaxies.

    Interesting story, but you really don’t know how phones are made.

    Samsung phones are made in several countries. Those made in China are made by Foxconn, the same Taiwanese company – not Chinese – that makes iphone, ipad, and Playstation 4. Foxconn is a huge public trade company that acquired Japanese “Sharp” a couple years ago, and is the process of building a giant factory in Wisconsin with initial $10 billion investment. Strictly speaking, high-end smart phones like Samsung Galaxies or iphones are not “made”in China; they are assembled in China, as most parts are imported from Japan, Korea and Taiwan. And Samsung makes many of those parts.

    If you think Foxconn or other companies are able to churn out Samsung phones using the exact parts without getting caught (making money is even harder), then you are really out of touch with reality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CalDre

    Interesting story, but you really don’t know how phones are made.

    Samsung phones are made in several countries. Those made in China are made by Foxconn, the same Taiwanese company – not Chinese – that makes iphone, ipad, and Playstation 4.
     

    First, Foxcom does not have Samsung as a client. "Foxconn’s CEO Terry Gou is no fan of Samsung," it is reported.

    Second, Samsung uses other companies to assemble in China (Tianjin).

    Third, "Antutu, a mobile security app firm in China, said 43.6 percent of counterfeited phones in China were disguised as Samsung phones."

    Fourth, "Counterfeit smartphones abound in China, and over half are pirated versions of models by South Korean electronics giant Samsung and China's Xiaomi, according to a new report. "

    Fifth, read about shanzhai phones.

    Sixth, general research article about China counterfeiting and "third shifts".

    Also, I have real life basis for knowing that "third shifts" are a pervasive problem in China. The auditing is not nearly as stringent as one would imagine.

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  78. CalDre says:
    @Anonymous

    I can give you an anecdote about “traditional” Chinese technology theft (while this is ubiquitous, but I am using an anecdote). In second- and third-world countries you can buy so-called “gray market” Samsung Galaxies.
     
    Interesting story, but you really don't know how phones are made.

    Samsung phones are made in several countries. Those made in China are made by Foxconn, the same Taiwanese company - not Chinese - that makes iphone, ipad, and Playstation 4. Foxconn is a huge public trade company that acquired Japanese "Sharp" a couple years ago, and is the process of building a giant factory in Wisconsin with initial $10 billion investment. Strictly speaking, high-end smart phones like Samsung Galaxies or iphones are not "made"in China; they are assembled in China, as most parts are imported from Japan, Korea and Taiwan. And Samsung makes many of those parts.

    If you think Foxconn or other companies are able to churn out Samsung phones using the exact parts without getting caught (making money is even harder), then you are really out of touch with reality.

    Interesting story, but you really don’t know how phones are made.

    Samsung phones are made in several countries. Those made in China are made by Foxconn, the same Taiwanese company – not Chinese – that makes iphone, ipad, and Playstation 4.

    First, Foxcom does not have Samsung as a client. “Foxconn’s CEO Terry Gou is no fan of Samsung,” it is reported.

    Second, Samsung uses other companies to assemble in China (Tianjin).

    Third, “Antutu, a mobile security app firm in China, said 43.6 percent of counterfeited phones in China were disguised as Samsung phones.”

    Fourth, “Counterfeit smartphones abound in China, and over half are pirated versions of models by South Korean electronics giant Samsung and China’s Xiaomi, according to a new report. ”

    Fifth, read about shanzhai phones.

    Sixth, general research article about China counterfeiting and “third shifts”.

    Also, I have real life basis for knowing that “third shifts” are a pervasive problem in China. The auditing is not nearly as stringent as one would imagine.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Anyone can edit Wiki. If you don't think Foxconn is the manufacturer, then tell me who the manufacturer is. Korean, Taiwanese, Chinese? That is something you can find out, no?


    https://www.theverge.com/2016/5/25/11772222/foxconn-automation-robots-apple-samsung-smartphones


    "Foxconn, the largest contract electronics manufacturer in the world, says it has automated away 60,000 jobs in one of its factories, according to the BBC. The cuts are part of an ongoing process to replace humans responsible for "many of the manufacturing tasks associated with our operations" with robots, the company said in a statement. Foxconn helps manufacture Apple's iPhone and iPad, Samsung's Galaxy phone line, and Sony's PlayStation 4, as well as other devices from many of the world's biggest tech brands. "
     
    As for the rest, none of your links prove your point that counterfeit Samsung Galaxy phones use the exact parts as the legitimate Samsung phones, and your conclusion stated below.

    "The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a “third shift”, at night, where they would produce these “gray market” goods, and sell them, at a huge profit to them, because of course they paid none of the development costs of these devices."
     
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  79. anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @CalDre

    Interesting story, but you really don’t know how phones are made.

    Samsung phones are made in several countries. Those made in China are made by Foxconn, the same Taiwanese company – not Chinese – that makes iphone, ipad, and Playstation 4.
     

    First, Foxcom does not have Samsung as a client. "Foxconn’s CEO Terry Gou is no fan of Samsung," it is reported.

    Second, Samsung uses other companies to assemble in China (Tianjin).

    Third, "Antutu, a mobile security app firm in China, said 43.6 percent of counterfeited phones in China were disguised as Samsung phones."

    Fourth, "Counterfeit smartphones abound in China, and over half are pirated versions of models by South Korean electronics giant Samsung and China's Xiaomi, according to a new report. "

    Fifth, read about shanzhai phones.

    Sixth, general research article about China counterfeiting and "third shifts".

    Also, I have real life basis for knowing that "third shifts" are a pervasive problem in China. The auditing is not nearly as stringent as one would imagine.

    Anyone can edit Wiki. If you don’t think Foxconn is the manufacturer, then tell me who the manufacturer is. Korean, Taiwanese, Chinese? That is something you can find out, no?

    https://www.theverge.com/2016/5/25/11772222/foxconn-automation-robots-apple-samsung-smartphones

    “Foxconn, the largest contract electronics manufacturer in the world, says it has automated away 60,000 jobs in one of its factories, according to the BBC. The cuts are part of an ongoing process to replace humans responsible for “many of the manufacturing tasks associated with our operations” with robots, the company said in a statement. Foxconn helps manufacture Apple’s iPhone and iPad, Samsung’s Galaxy phone line, and Sony’s PlayStation 4, as well as other devices from many of the world’s biggest tech brands. “

    As for the rest, none of your links prove your point that counterfeit Samsung Galaxy phones use the exact parts as the legitimate Samsung phones, and your conclusion stated below.

    “The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a “third shift”, at night, where they would produce these “gray market” goods, and sell them, at a huge profit to them, because of course they paid none of the development costs of these devices.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @CalDre

    Anyone can edit Wiki. If you don’t think Foxconn is the manufacturer, then tell me who the manufacturer is.
     
    And what makes The Verge such a reliable source of info? Why would FoxConn CEO insult Samsung if it is a client? And even if it supplies parts to Samsung, what parts are those? As to where Samsung manufactures in China, read the link in "Second", which references the products made in those factories (hint: "producing Samsung’s semi-finished and finished mobile phones").

    As for the rest, none of your links prove your point that counterfeit Samsung Galaxy phones use the exact parts as the legitimate Samsung phones
     
    Yes, you are right, there is no link that is going to prove that the precise phone I bought satisfies that criteria. In fact, there is not going to be any link about the exact phone I bought. I guess that means I know nothing about it, you should question even whether it was a phone or not, just to be thorough.

    I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was a "third shift" phone, but I probably could that whoever made it had at least the cooperation of that plant. The similarities were just too great (I ended up taking it apart and comparing to a real Samsung S5).

    The other links do prove however that China is the worlds largest manufacturer of counterfeit smartphones. Whether or not the one I purchased was made by the legitimate Samsung factory, there's no doubt that it this illegal counterfeit product was made in China.
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  80. TT says:
    @CalDre
    I'm not whining, you're just posting garbage.

    Bad as US government is, it's much better than China's totalitarian police state. I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China's case, you have no say whatsoever.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country! You have no room to talk, and Joe Wong is a particular reprehensible Communist worm.

    Wow, where my posting has hurt you?

    Im merely telling Denk i feel for the pain of gd Americans that their once great country is badly screwed by their greedy gov. Read again, pal. Im not alone to say you are whining in your posts.

    im not from China to category reply your vehement attack to China. But i will chose China over US leaders at any means. Pls keep your great gov, less the malignant cancer spread.

    Btw, my country has just sent a team to learn from China AI cashless digital system. I think open face recognition system is great for crime & terrorism control you might afraid, but be assured its better than illegal Prism & 5eyes exposed by Snowden.

    Falungong seems bad, they are lying to undermine China just like you in my country with US embassy support. It look like a CIA asset to subvert, likely my gov has banned it as i don’t see their activity much.

    And northern Tibet free from CIA subversion now was very prosperous & beautiful under China boot, hope to visit it using their new FSR. Southern Tibet is still under India rape with CIA humanity effort.

    I started to find curiosity in Mao after reading Mr Robert postings, why would ten of millions Chinese pay respect to Mao annually if he is such evil painted by pathogenic lying West, so i might try to read more about him.

    And US is massacring many millions innocents everywhere till now, spending all their time in endless aggression wars and is rated No1 Threat by the world. I am very convince it had slaughtered more than 30M innocents globally. You must be so proud of your country No1 killing achievements to raise it here. You are also No1 in violent, crimes, Opiods abusing, 1000 military bases, most wars,…long list of great achievements. Sure your elected Trumps will add more to those records to make America great.

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  81. denk says:
    @CalDre
    I'm not whining, you're just posting garbage.

    Bad as US government is, it's much better than China's totalitarian police state. I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China's case, you have no say whatsoever.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country! You have no room to talk, and Joe Wong is a particular reprehensible Communist worm.

    Bad as US government is, it’s much better than China’s totalitarian police state.

    So you’r MSM addict !

    Coming from murikka thats a bit rich !
    Chinese cops didnt even have to carry sidearms like in USA, . All that changed after the US sponsored Uighur militants [1]launched a torrent of deadly attacks all over China in 2015/6.

    Thank you USA for exporting your ‘democracy’ to China !

    Police state !

    There are so many murikkans who went to China and got their MSM fed prejudice blown away within a week !
    They marvel at the friendliness of the Chinese cops in contrast with the armed to the teeth, shoot first and ask later goons that passes for cops back home.
    dont take my words for it, you can look it up or better still go there and find out yourself,

    I had wanted to ask that utu kid to make a trip to China instead of holing up in the basement ,watching dubious youtube videos all day and thought he knows China !
    May be you should try the same.

    I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. ]

    Whats wrong with a more efficient way to apprehend traffic offenders ?
    its not as if their cops would pull a gun and make you spread eagle on the floor for some minor transgressions like in the USA.

    And you should complain….!

    Big Brother must probe our crotches because Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab had 80 grams of PETN explosive in his underwear.

    Heading for Detroit, he could board an airliner in Amsterdam even without a passport. Unless there was intervention from higher up, from inside, this would not have been possible. Strange, but many 9/11 “terrorists” also managed to get into the U.S. with improperly handled paperwork

    http://www.unz.com/ldinh/i-feel-you/

    [1]
    unlike the murikkans who branded moslems fighting for independence in Kashmir ‘terrorists’ while East Turkistan separatists in Xinjiang ‘freedom fighters’,
    Im a fair man, they’r all militants.

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  82. denk says:
    @TT
    Cadre is whining bcos he is seeing how the vultures of bankers & MIC are screwing his country up but feel helpless like many good Americans. Blame China & Russia.

    But Americans elected their own Potus & representative, congressmen, they have themselves to answer for it.

    TPTB = ?

    Btw I think Malla has really got hold by RAW...you know where he is locked up? hehehehe

    Back from zhougong.

    TPTB = The power that be = the deep state
    = master of universe…..

    Caldre and his ilks blame it all on the Jews, but
    its really a wasp/zio/Indian cabal, aka fukusI.

    Malla might be rotting in some Indian cell now,
    It did cross my mind Caldre = Malla, but his rant on Tibet, flg , Mao reeks of an Indian troll.

    hehehhe

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  83. TT says:
    @CalDre

    It seem you are utterly ignorant in business trade that you are ranting so much with unsubstantiated facts.
     
    You've substantiated nothing. You just make absurd statements.

    Pls enlighten me how weakening a currency can erect large tariffs for China import to get advantage?
     
    It's obvious to anyone with any understanding of economics. Because China devalues the remnimbi, to 1/4th its actual value, a Chinese employer pays its employees $3 / hour instead of $12 / hour. For example if Chinese salary is 18 yuan/hour, at exchange rate of 6 yuan/dollar, the wage is $3/hr. But if exchange rate were properly at 1.5 yuan / dollar, the wage would be $12 / hr. Can you follow that, or did I lose you in the complexity of it all? You don't seem too bright.

    Now, let's see how that plays out. Let's say American company wants to compete with Chinese company. Due to currency manipulation, Chinese company pays $3/hr to employees, but US company has to pay $12/hr. So how can US company compete with Chinese company? It obviously can't.

    Same is true with Chinese exports. China can export the same product for much cheaper, because labor costs are cheaper.

    You know what, this is all so basic, I wish I had time to respond to your comments, but, I tire of debating two ignorant China trolls.

    China devalues the remnimbi, to 1/4th its actual value, a Chinese employer pays its employees $3 / hour instead of $12 / hour. …Can you follow that, or did I lose you in the complexity of it all? You don’t seem too bright.

    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.

    When ask how devaluating currency help to put 75% tariffs across all import goods to help China has advantage as you claimed repeatedly, you rant on how to calculate labour cost, how it make export cheaper.

    What a idiot reply you can come out with. How could your clients not lost their business with your stupidity consultation.

    A simplified eg. When UK raised 30% tariff on China steel, it only increased China import steel price by 30% to make it closer to UK high production cost with extra tax revenue.

    If pound devalue 30%, it make every import from every country 30% more expensive without adding tax revenue. It promote export, boost FDI & jobs with cheaper cost, but reduce purchasing power & USD debt repayment ability by 30%. Import energy & material cost go up 30% hence increasing production cost.

    It may cause mild inflation desirable to artificial improve GDP growth for developed country like UK, but a hyper inflation disaster for poor country like Indonesia with high USD foreign debts. Its one tool use by every country to best serve its interest in macro level.

    You have wasted everyone time with your ranting about China & criticism on Mr Robert who do us great service to better understand China.

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    • Replies: @CalDre

    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.
     
    Oh my God, you and Joe Wong and Denk are fucking imbeciles. Not worth wasting another second of my time. I'm involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.
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  84. TT says:
    @Joe Wong
    Isn't CalDre = Malla?

    Like Denk said, Malla is much brighter & factual than CalDre. To equate them is an insult to Malla… it will be fun to have Malla in debate. He is White nationalist Hindu high caste Indian who admire China & West, a weird combination… hehehehe

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  85. Joe Wong says:
    @CalDre
    I'm not whining, you're just posting garbage.

    Bad as US government is, it's much better than China's totalitarian police state. I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China's case, you have no say whatsoever.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country! You have no room to talk, and Joe Wong is a particular reprehensible Communist worm.

    You are jealous, resentful and fear of Chinese achievements, in addition you are worrying China’s rise will bring chicken coming home to roost for you guys after all the sickening work your beastly forebears have done to the world not just to the Chinese.

    You should blame your forebears, not the others who have taken the short end of your forebears’ barbarism, or you can blame the ones who brought you to this world too late for you to miss the boat of high time.

    You can have your fucking government,

    You too, only you, the White is bombing, killing and waterboarding around the world recklessly and ruthlessly on the fake news since 1642 uninvited, unwanted, and white washing and glossing over their crimes like the ‘god-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘inquisitors’.

    Falun Gong, ISIS, Al-Qaida, slave owner Dalai Lama, cocaine barons and death squads in Latin America, … are all American and Brits creations. Guantanamo Bay proves torture is American forte and they are still the same as their wicked inquisition forebears.

    The West (Europeans and their offshoots like the American, Aussie, etc.) is where is now, because of those hundreds of millions of people all over the world who were robbed and murdered, those who become victims of their very madness of colonialism and orientalism, of the crusades and the slave and Opium trades. Cathedrals and palaces, museums and theatres, train stations – all had been constructed on horrid foundations of bones and blood, and amalgamated by tears.

    The West squandered all the wealth they obtained thru stealing, looting and murdering hundreds of millions of people all over the world in the scrabbling of a dog-eat-dog play rough over the monopoly to plunder the rest of the world through two World Wars, one on the edge of Armageddon, and on the verge of another Armageddon. It proves the West is incapable of bringing peace and prosperity to the mankind because of their flawed culture, civilization and religion. The chaos and suffering of the world in the last few hundreds of years under the dominance the West proves they are a failure.

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    • Replies: @renfro
    Some of that is true...but China is not lily white, you helped communist N Korea invade S Korea and you have had your share of civil wars.

    However we can call it even and consider you civilized when you quit having dog killing festivals and eating them. That would get you killed in this country by Americans like me.
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  86. Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    The link asks money to read the article, unless you can provide altnative access, otherwise we don't know why it is interesting. The explosive tension in the UNSC plus the trade war, we are living in a dangerous time, it is not funny at all.
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  87. CalDre says:
    @anonymous
    Anyone can edit Wiki. If you don't think Foxconn is the manufacturer, then tell me who the manufacturer is. Korean, Taiwanese, Chinese? That is something you can find out, no?


    https://www.theverge.com/2016/5/25/11772222/foxconn-automation-robots-apple-samsung-smartphones


    "Foxconn, the largest contract electronics manufacturer in the world, says it has automated away 60,000 jobs in one of its factories, according to the BBC. The cuts are part of an ongoing process to replace humans responsible for "many of the manufacturing tasks associated with our operations" with robots, the company said in a statement. Foxconn helps manufacture Apple's iPhone and iPad, Samsung's Galaxy phone line, and Sony's PlayStation 4, as well as other devices from many of the world's biggest tech brands. "
     
    As for the rest, none of your links prove your point that counterfeit Samsung Galaxy phones use the exact parts as the legitimate Samsung phones, and your conclusion stated below.

    "The very factories that were producing legitimate Samsung phones, would have a “third shift”, at night, where they would produce these “gray market” goods, and sell them, at a huge profit to them, because of course they paid none of the development costs of these devices."
     

    Anyone can edit Wiki. If you don’t think Foxconn is the manufacturer, then tell me who the manufacturer is.

    And what makes The Verge such a reliable source of info? Why would FoxConn CEO insult Samsung if it is a client? And even if it supplies parts to Samsung, what parts are those? As to where Samsung manufactures in China, read the link in “Second”, which references the products made in those factories (hint: “producing Samsung’s semi-finished and finished mobile phones”).

    As for the rest, none of your links prove your point that counterfeit Samsung Galaxy phones use the exact parts as the legitimate Samsung phones

    Yes, you are right, there is no link that is going to prove that the precise phone I bought satisfies that criteria. In fact, there is not going to be any link about the exact phone I bought. I guess that means I know nothing about it, you should question even whether it was a phone or not, just to be thorough.

    I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was a “third shift” phone, but I probably could that whoever made it had at least the cooperation of that plant. The similarities were just too great (I ended up taking it apart and comparing to a real Samsung S5).

    The other links do prove however that China is the worlds largest manufacturer of counterfeit smartphones. Whether or not the one I purchased was made by the legitimate Samsung factory, there’s no doubt that it this illegal counterfeit product was made in China.

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  88. CalDre says:
    @TT

    China devalues the remnimbi, to 1/4th its actual value, a Chinese employer pays its employees $3 / hour instead of $12 / hour. …Can you follow that, or did I lose you in the complexity of it all? You don’t seem too bright.
     
    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.

    When ask how devaluating currency help to put 75% tariffs across all import goods to help China has advantage as you claimed repeatedly, you rant on how to calculate labour cost, how it make export cheaper.

    What a idiot reply you can come out with. How could your clients not lost their business with your stupidity consultation.

    A simplified eg. When UK raised 30% tariff on China steel, it only increased China import steel price by 30% to make it closer to UK high production cost with extra tax revenue.

    If pound devalue 30%, it make every import from every country 30% more expensive without adding tax revenue. It promote export, boost FDI & jobs with cheaper cost, but reduce purchasing power & USD debt repayment ability by 30%. Import energy & material cost go up 30% hence increasing production cost.

    It may cause mild inflation desirable to artificial improve GDP growth for developed country like UK, but a hyper inflation disaster for poor country like Indonesia with high USD foreign debts. Its one tool use by every country to best serve its interest in macro level.

    You have wasted everyone time with your ranting about China & criticism on Mr Robert who do us great service to better understand China.

    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.

    Oh my God, you and Joe Wong and Denk are fucking imbeciles. Not worth wasting another second of my time. I’m involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT

    I’m involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.
     
    Give an example that i make a hateful or foolish remark.

    You are quite a good thinker elsewhere i can see, but not here when your ranting is simply not well substantiated, and absolute moronic when come to accusing China currency manipulating of 4x to erect 75% tariffs.

    Wtf with US failed education to produce such imbecile like you unable to understand simple term - tariff, in telling me how hourly pay is calculated.

    While i don't pretend China is not violating IP & rules like everyone, its absurd you rant on unfairness when WTO is a openly known rape to China. And US is a known biggest abuser of every international rules.

    Even been told Samsung produced different grade for various market based on my direct experience, and others giving you many sources, you are persistent with your false accusation.

    You even go so low to attack China like your msm presstitute after mistaken me from China. And your criticism to Mr Robert well writen article is simply unwarranted.

    Joe Wong might be right to say your deep jealousy of China rise against US declination is blinding you into harbouring foolish sinophobia hatred.
    , @gT
    Its their tactic, you yourself said that China has no rules, so the Chinese commentators just go on and on repeating the same lies in different ways bringing in different "facts" in a slightly distorted manner, the truth is immaterial. We've got a great future to look forward to if they achieve any sort of permanent global dominance.
    , @denk

    Oh my God, you and Joe Wong and Denk are fucking imbeciles. Not worth wasting another second of my time. I’m involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.
     
    A very 'insightful' reply to my posts.


    kinda expecting it, typical murikkans, never fail,.....

    Ad hominem is the last refuge of a loser
    , @Joe Wong
    We do not swear, and we present our views based on historical facts. UNZ Review is a rare case that supports freedom of speech in the West, we treasure it and appreciate very much it provides a tiny crack for us to present our view, the Chinese view not the CCP view, to the West based on our historical experience in the hope that we can resolve our differences through dialogue instead of bullets and blood. We hope we can work together to keep this lonely tiny globe continue to exist in this vast empty cold universe; we not only have the responsibility to keep ourselves survive and prosper as long as possible we also have the responsibility to keep all other living creatures on this planet to survive and prosper together with us as long as possible.
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  89. @CalDre
    I'm not whining, you're just posting garbage.

    Bad as US government is, it's much better than China's totalitarian police state. I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China's case, you have no say whatsoever.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country! You have no room to talk, and Joe Wong is a particular reprehensible Communist worm.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days?

    Last I heard, raising funds for ISIS is illegal in the US too. In fact, compliance with any trade actions against Israel is illegal.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/720?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22S.+720%22%5D%7D&r=1&elqTrackId=B52A0D0F8D779CEEE7C23F40CC76457F&elq=4b2a3945cac54cf78621b84002d5abd4&elqaid=31834&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=

    The bill amends the Export Administration Act of 1979 to declare that it shall be U.S. policy to oppose:

    1)requests by foreign countries to impose restrictive practices or boycotts against other countries friendly to the United States or against U.S. persons; and

    2)restrictive trade practices or boycotts fostered or imposed by an international governmental organization, or requests to impose such practices or boycotts, against Israel.

    The bill prohibits any U.S. person engaged interstate or foreign commerce from supporting:

    1)any request by a foreign country to impose any boycott against a country that is friendly to the United States and that is not itself the object of any form of boycott pursuant to United States law or regulation, or

    2)any boycott fostered or imposed by any international governmental organization against Israel or any request by any international governmental organization to impose such a boycott.

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  90. Vidi says:
    @CalDre

    In other words, you don’t know, and you are just making something up to “explain” why China doesn’t lose more cases in the WTO tribunal
     
    I know the US could have taken action thousands of times but didn't. That itself is determinative.

    For example, in the US today, there are millions of people smoking marijuana and buying it in stores, even though it is illegal under federal law. Now you will tell me these users are not breaking the rules, just because they are not prosecuted? And what about the ten million illegals working in jobs in the US, illegally. They are not breaking the rules, because they are not put in prison?

    Really your argument makes no sense. China doesn't lose cases for the simple reason that US does not bring cases. Your assumption that because US does not bring cases, there are no violations, is absolutely stupid. American corporations have brought IP theft cases in China, but as a matter of policy, the judges, who are all Communist Party members, rule against the foreign corporations. It is systemic, organized theft.


    No, the best way to measure fairness is whether the same rules apply to everyone.
     
    As I have already noted, you are bringing up trivialities. There are two major drivers of US-China trade/investment that absolutely dwarf everything else: Chinese currency manipulation (by pegging to the dollar and imposing strict capital flow controls), and rampant Chinese theft of intellectual property. Those massive and continuous rules violations are thousands of times more important in real life then the minor stuff you whine on about.

    people like you are whining that the Chinese haven’t been totally robbed.
     
    Anyone with half a brain, which apparently excludes you, can see that China has made out like bandits, literally, from the trade agreements.

    The US doesn’t take more action in the WTO tribunal because it knows it will lose.

    We’ll agree to disagree.

    The U.S. could, of course, exploit its dominance of the WTO to make the whole tribunal a mere kangaroo court, but that would destroy the WTO.

    Why would I care what Branstetter and Lardy say?

    You should care because the NBER is the National Bureau of Economic Research, the largest economic research organization in the U.S. Its current president is Professor James Poterba of MIT. It is far more credible than most American organizations are these days.

    If the NBER says the U.S. basically rigged the WTO against the Chinese, that is almost certainly true. So you’ve no right to whine about it now, as the terms were the ones the U.S. forced on China, and the U.S. signed the deal of its own free will.

    Those massive and continuous rules violations are thousands of times more important in real life then the minor stuff you whine on about.

    First, what violations of WTO rules are these? And second, what credible evidence do you have that those violations occurred? Or are you behaving like a typical neocon, spewing evidence-free (and probably fact-free) allegations?

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  91. Vidi says:

    By the way, here’s a quote from the NBER’s website:

    The NBER is the nation’s leading nonprofit economic research organization. Twenty-seven Nobel Prize winners in Economics and thirteen past chairs of the President’s Council of Economic Advisers have held NBER affiliations. The more than 1,400 professors of economics and business now teaching at colleges and universities in North America who are NBER researchers are the leading scholars in their fields.

    http://www.nber.org/info.html

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  92. Vidi says:
    @CalDre
    I'm not whining, you're just posting garbage.

    Bad as US government is, it's much better than China's totalitarian police state. I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now. You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China's case, you have no say whatsoever.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country! You have no room to talk, and Joe Wong is a particular reprehensible Communist worm.

    Bad as US government is, it’s much better than China’s totalitarian police state.

    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_China

    The difference is even more impressive when you consider how many more people live in China, and how much poorer they are. I don’t think Americans have any right to accuse any other country of having a “police state”.

    I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now.

    Sigh. It’s a scandal what Americans don’t know about their own country:

    21 states, the District of Columbia and the U.S. Virgin Islands have enacted laws permitting some form of red light camera use, with 9 states and the District of Columbia fully permitting use, and 12 states and the Virgin Islands allowing limited use.

    https://www.ghsa.org/state-laws/issues/speed-and-red-light-cameras

    Of course, the ignorance of Americans doesn’t prevent them from hurling abuse at other countries.

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    • Replies: @CalDre

    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.
     
    Yes this is a big problem in US, but vast majority of these killed people are armed criminals, whom you would call "terrorists". But let's compare how China acts: "the Chinese Communist Party has engaged the state in the mass killings of innocents, primarily practitioners of the spiritually based set of exercises, Falun Gong, but also Uyghurs, Tibetans, and select House Christians, in order to obtain organs for transplants."

    And here we have: "Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday."

    In Xinjiang: "at least 2,000 ethnic minority Uyghurs may have been killed by Chinese security forces following riots last week in a restive county in China’s western Xinjiang region, far more than reported by the state media".

    I don’t think Americans have any right to accuse any other country of having a “police state”.
     
    Police state isn't based on number of police killings of armed criminals. In fact that fact is entirely irrelevant to the concept.

    It’s a scandal what Americans don’t know about their own country
     
    Sigh. It’s a scandal what you don't know about reading. The red light cameras (and in some countries speeding cameras) read license plates and ticket a CAR. Chinese new police state scans people's faces and tickets the person. Right now it is only jaywalking, maybe, but soon those 200 MILLION (yes, that's 200 MILLION) surveillance cameras in China will watch every single thing you do, face-scan you and ticket you/call the police if you do something the government doesn't like. It's actually a massive difference.

    Also there is new policy, these cameras and other computers will monitor you and if you are guilty of "social misdeeds" will get a low "social credit" rating and can't, for example, travel.

    the ignorance of Americans doesn’t prevent them from hurling abuse at other countries.
     
    That's funny, you are projecting. You and your CCCP buddy "Wong" do nothing but hurl abuse, whining and yammering about this and that totally off topic. My point all along was that China is a massive WTO cheater and thief and has benefited massively from the WTO at the expense of Americans. These are just indisputable facts no matter how much foul-mouthed venom or irrelevant distractions you try to throw out there.

    So have a good life, I am done with you too.
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  93. TT says:
    @CalDre

    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.
     
    Oh my God, you and Joe Wong and Denk are fucking imbeciles. Not worth wasting another second of my time. I'm involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.

    I’m involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.

    Give an example that i make a hateful or foolish remark.

    You are quite a good thinker elsewhere i can see, but not here when your ranting is simply not well substantiated, and absolute moronic when come to accusing China currency manipulating of 4x to erect 75% tariffs.

    Wtf with US failed education to produce such imbecile like you unable to understand simple term – tariff, in telling me how hourly pay is calculated.

    While i don’t pretend China is not violating IP & rules like everyone, its absurd you rant on unfairness when WTO is a openly known rape to China. And US is a known biggest abuser of every international rules.

    Even been told Samsung produced different grade for various market based on my direct experience, and others giving you many sources, you are persistent with your false accusation.

    You even go so low to attack China like your msm presstitute after mistaken me from China. And your criticism to Mr Robert well writen article is simply unwarranted.

    Joe Wong might be right to say your deep jealousy of China rise against US declination is blinding you into harbouring foolish sinophobia hatred.

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  94. CalDre says:
    @Vidi

    Bad as US government is, it’s much better than China’s totalitarian police state.
     
    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_China

    The difference is even more impressive when you consider how many more people live in China, and how much poorer they are. I don't think Americans have any right to accuse any other country of having a "police state".

    I hear you have cameras issuing you tickets now.
     
    Sigh. It's a scandal what Americans don't know about their own country:

    21 states, the District of Columbia and the U.S. Virgin Islands have enacted laws permitting some form of red light camera use, with 9 states and the District of Columbia fully permitting use, and 12 states and the Virgin Islands allowing limited use.
     
    https://www.ghsa.org/state-laws/issues/speed-and-red-light-cameras

    Of course, the ignorance of Americans doesn't prevent them from hurling abuse at other countries.

    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.

    Yes this is a big problem in US, but vast majority of these killed people are armed criminals, whom you would call “terrorists”. But let’s compare how China acts: “the Chinese Communist Party has engaged the state in the mass killings of innocents, primarily practitioners of the spiritually based set of exercises, Falun Gong, but also Uyghurs, Tibetans, and select House Christians, in order to obtain organs for transplants.”

    And here we have: “Mao Zedong, founder of the People’s Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.”

    In Xinjiang: “at least 2,000 ethnic minority Uyghurs may have been killed by Chinese security forces following riots last week in a restive county in China’s western Xinjiang region, far more than reported by the state media”.

    I don’t think Americans have any right to accuse any other country of having a “police state”.

    Police state isn’t based on number of police killings of armed criminals. In fact that fact is entirely irrelevant to the concept.

    It’s a scandal what Americans don’t know about their own country

    Sigh. It’s a scandal what you don’t know about reading. The red light cameras (and in some countries speeding cameras) read license plates and ticket a CAR. Chinese new police state scans people’s faces and tickets the person. Right now it is only jaywalking, maybe, but soon those 200 MILLION (yes, that’s 200 MILLION) surveillance cameras in China will watch every single thing you do, face-scan you and ticket you/call the police if you do something the government doesn’t like. It’s actually a massive difference.

    Also there is new policy, these cameras and other computers will monitor you and if you are guilty of “social misdeeds” will get a low “social credit” rating and can’t, for example, travel.

    the ignorance of Americans doesn’t prevent them from hurling abuse at other countries.

    That’s funny, you are projecting. You and your CCCP buddy “Wong” do nothing but hurl abuse, whining and yammering about this and that totally off topic. My point all along was that China is a massive WTO cheater and thief and has benefited massively from the WTO at the expense of Americans. These are just indisputable facts no matter how much foul-mouthed venom or irrelevant distractions you try to throw out there.

    So have a good life, I am done with you too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That’s funny, you are projecting. You and your CCCP buddy “Wong” do nothing but hurl abuse, whining and yammering about this and that totally off topic.

    Vidi is Russian, you know. You might want to wonder why your country has gotten such a stellar reputation.
    , @denk
    news.com.au, theindependent.uk
    [aka the five lies MSM]

    AND......that CIA front RFA !

    That's your idea of credible source ???

    ---------------------
    journo 101 on basic rigor,

    I've documented here several times how fukusI
    fingered Chinese Indonesians as Beijing's fifth columns, thus provoking a genocide that killed at least 3M.
    [sources from CIA whistle blower and UK govn archive, you cant be more authentic than that]

    If you think thats bad enough, here's how fukusI fingered their own citizens for murder ,,,,cuz they offended Washington/London's friendly tyrants.

    'In 1992, a Guatemalan guerrilla leader, Efraín Bámaca Velásquez, married to an American woman, Jennifer Harbury, was captured by the Army, tortured, and killed.

    It took three years and the intervention of Rep. Robert Torricelli to learn the truth - that a guatemalan colonel on the American payroll had ordered the killing.

    .............................

    A 1976 internal report of the State Department said the Chilean government "might have believed this American [Horman] could be killed without negative fallout from the US government." And, "US intelligence may have played an unfortunate part in Horman's death."

    The report suggests that he was fingered for the Pinochet regime by a CIA officer undercover as a consular official.'
     
    https://archive.commondreams.org/view/022500-104.htm

    What a lovely country,
    The world's oldest democracy !
    hehehhehe
    , @Vidi


    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.
     
    Yes this is a big problem in US, but vast majority of these killed people are armed criminals, whom you would call “terrorists”.
     
    Correction, the 991 people murdered by the American cops were what the fake news media calls terrorists. Oddly, most of these "terrorists" were black.

    But let’s compare how China acts: “the Chinese Communist Party has engaged the state in the mass killings of innocents, primarily practitioners of the spiritually based set of exercises, Falun Gong, but also Uyghurs, Tibetans, and select House Christians, in order to obtain organs for transplants.”
     
    Yes, this is probably more fake news. What credible evidence have you for these allegations?

    Police state isn’t based on number of police killings of armed criminals. In fact that fact is entirely irrelevant to the concept.
     
    There are, of course, a range of definitions for "police state". But 991 murders by cop in the U.S. versus 5 in China certainly indicates which country's police forces are more vicious -- and therefore which country is more likely to be seen as a police state by most people in the world.
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  95. Anonymous[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @CalDre

    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.
     
    Yes this is a big problem in US, but vast majority of these killed people are armed criminals, whom you would call "terrorists". But let's compare how China acts: "the Chinese Communist Party has engaged the state in the mass killings of innocents, primarily practitioners of the spiritually based set of exercises, Falun Gong, but also Uyghurs, Tibetans, and select House Christians, in order to obtain organs for transplants."

    And here we have: "Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday."

    In Xinjiang: "at least 2,000 ethnic minority Uyghurs may have been killed by Chinese security forces following riots last week in a restive county in China’s western Xinjiang region, far more than reported by the state media".

    I don’t think Americans have any right to accuse any other country of having a “police state”.
     
    Police state isn't based on number of police killings of armed criminals. In fact that fact is entirely irrelevant to the concept.

    It’s a scandal what Americans don’t know about their own country
     
    Sigh. It’s a scandal what you don't know about reading. The red light cameras (and in some countries speeding cameras) read license plates and ticket a CAR. Chinese new police state scans people's faces and tickets the person. Right now it is only jaywalking, maybe, but soon those 200 MILLION (yes, that's 200 MILLION) surveillance cameras in China will watch every single thing you do, face-scan you and ticket you/call the police if you do something the government doesn't like. It's actually a massive difference.

    Also there is new policy, these cameras and other computers will monitor you and if you are guilty of "social misdeeds" will get a low "social credit" rating and can't, for example, travel.

    the ignorance of Americans doesn’t prevent them from hurling abuse at other countries.
     
    That's funny, you are projecting. You and your CCCP buddy "Wong" do nothing but hurl abuse, whining and yammering about this and that totally off topic. My point all along was that China is a massive WTO cheater and thief and has benefited massively from the WTO at the expense of Americans. These are just indisputable facts no matter how much foul-mouthed venom or irrelevant distractions you try to throw out there.

    So have a good life, I am done with you too.

    That’s funny, you are projecting. You and your CCCP buddy “Wong” do nothing but hurl abuse, whining and yammering about this and that totally off topic.

    Vidi is Russian, you know. You might want to wonder why your country has gotten such a stellar reputation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CalDre
    I know why US has its reputation, sometimes I am surprised it is not worse.

    But Russia and China have a worse international reputation (Pew Aug. 2017), maybe you should wonder about that?


    http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/08/23101703/FT_17.08.11_china_us_russia_line_featured.png

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  96. CalDre says:
    @Anonymous
    That’s funny, you are projecting. You and your CCCP buddy “Wong” do nothing but hurl abuse, whining and yammering about this and that totally off topic.

    Vidi is Russian, you know. You might want to wonder why your country has gotten such a stellar reputation.

    I know why US has its reputation, sometimes I am surprised it is not worse.

    But Russia and China have a worse international reputation (Pew Aug. 2017), maybe you should wonder about that?

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk

    You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China’s case, you have no say whatsoever.]
     
    Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton..........
    300 years of warfare, 45 war pigs in a row couldnt be a bug, it must be a feature, my dear. !

    news flash, the election is rigged !

    If you still believe in changing murikka with your votes [sic]
    then i've given you more credits than you deserve.

    Doing the same thing every time and expect a different result is the sign of insanity.

    utu the kid sniffs that murikka would be ruined if governed by the CCP,
    ROTFLMAO !

    Another news flash, China is progressing with each new day,
    yes, including 'human rights'.

    whereas murikka is rotting in all departments, heading towards a banana republic, if its not already there !

    The way murkkans are blaming it all on China while their dear leaders rob them clean is truly pathetic.

    fukus is doomed.
    I only hope when it goes down, they dont drag us all with it.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country!]
     
    This only serve to illustrate how brainwashed murikkans are, even for those who thought they know better.

    But then guilty until proven innocent is the murikkan mantra innit ?

    'Putin murdered his agent in UK , CASE CLOSED.'
    cuz fukusI dear leaders , everyone of which is a serial lying scumbag, say so !

    Mind you, they reserve the right to kill terrorists suspects, their families, friends, in any country they fancy.
    To make sure the kill,
    they obliterate all other houses in the vicinity of the suspect hideout .

    What a lovely country !


    hehehhehe



    In any case,
    kid,
    Tibet has been 'under Chinese boot' since 15C, courtesy of the Mongols !
    Yet you manage to outdone genghis Khan in 21C, the entire planet under murikkans jackboot, no mean feat that .
    hehehhe

    A friendly advice to fukusI,
    dont ever lecture anybody on human rights and imperialism...you'r simply asking for it !

    For example,
    if I challenge you 'how many women and kids have the USA killed today ?' , you and I know thats a undisputable fact, as opposed to the kind of craps about flg, Mao the murderer , you spill above.

    fukusI[ndia] banditry 3

    AI
    'Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed or "disappeared", at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame. '
     
    -----------------

    fukusI[ndia] banditry 4

    exhibit Sudan....

    Thanks to Wikileaks we know that the CIA began paying the salaries of what is today the South Sudanese “rebel army” led by Reik Machar in 2009. And the CIA is still paying them today.

    We are talking about an army of at least 20,000 professionals with at least an equal amount of “militia”, little more than ethnic death squads, who have been actively waging combat for 18 months now in an attempt to overthrow the existing South Sudanese government.

    The bill for salaries, food, fuel, equipment and ammunition runs upwards of $100 million with the source of these funds a best kept secret.

    “Show me the money”. On the CIA payroll beginning in 2009, secret until Wikileaks broke the story, and on the CIA payroll still. It’s the CIA’s M.O. clear as day.

    When it comes time to start looking for answers for the causes of the murder and mayhem in Africa its best to follow the money trail, in this case right back to the Obama Mafia White House and its African expert, BHO’s “Quiet Consigliere”, Gayle Smith.

    Why would the Obama regime pay for this terrible crime ravaging South Sudan?

    Its all about oil. The USA wants China out of its only oil field in Africa and will pay what it takes to get whomever to do its dirty work, whether the Contra “rebel army” in Nicaragua 30 years ago (back then it was Reagan’s War) or Riek Machar’s “rebel army” fighting “Obama’s War” in South Sudan today.

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/16/obamas-war-in-south-sudan/

    What a lovely country !


    So much for China as the chosen one ,
    hehehehhe
    , @Anonymous
    Soros.
    , @denk
    You'r not stupid and you seem well informed.
    You ought to know what kind of shit fukusI has done in this past century alone.........

    "Exposing Western hypocrisy - how much more exposed can they be? Which decent human being on Earth harbours any illusions about it? These are people whose histories are spongy with the blood of others.

    Colonialism, apartheid, slavery, ethnic cleansing, germ warfare, chemical weapons - they virtually invented it all. They have plundered nations, snuffed out civilisations, exterminated entire populations. They stand on the world's stage stark naked but entirely unembarrassed, because they know that they have more money, more food and bigger bombs than anybody else" ("The Cost of Living" by Arundhati Roy,
     
    which begs the question,
    How could the great satan enjoys a higher popurality rating than Russia/China ?

    I know why US has its reputation, sometimes I am surprised it is not worse.
     
    Good thinking ,
    You gotta thanks CIA'S mighty wurlitzer,......

    CIA

    We can play on the world's media like a giant Wurlitzer
     
    http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/prsp25.htm
    , @TT
    Come on, you have in many postings rationally pointed out the evil US Empire, and a few left over independent countries like Russia, China, Iran, NK, Venezuela, Cuba, Syria are now resisting it bravely.

    Why do you want to go so low to continuously smear China here, who is now a high standard the world can look up for peace & prosperity with equal term?

    You are fighting against the global current to defend the greatest evil empire out of pride. Even imagine anyone speaking out for China must be Chinese & started insulting with blatant lies like CIA propagandist.

    There are tonnes of evidences you have already feasted on, yet wanted to whine how a smart China turn the table against the hedgmon that enforced unequal rules globally. There is no rules to observe in resisting evil US Empire which break every rules. The trade war will showcase how China gonna teach tyranny hedgmon US a painful lesson.

    See what even Murkans think about who is the biggest threats.
    China 1/10 lowest.
    US & UK institutions eroding 9/10 highest.
    https://www.shortlist.com/news/biggest-threats-world-2018-trump-north-korea-war/339390/amp

    2013 Gallop polls
    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4531824

    There’s really no way to sugarcoat it: The rest of world believes that the United States is the country that poses the greatest threat to world peace, beating out all challengers by a wide margin.
     
    The world is afraid of Americans
    https://www.good.is/articles/the-world-is-afraid-of-americans/amp

    Why US is biggest threat
    https://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Why-the-US-is-the-Biggest-Threat-to-World-Peace-20150117-0024.html


    the U.S. was exceptional, a beacon of liberty and justice in the world. But after considering the trail of blood, coups and bombs that continue to follow the U.S. flag wherever it flies, it’s safe to say that the U.S. is exceptional in many things; liberty and justice are not among them.

    The U.S. leads the world in military spending, with more than US$7.6 trillion spent on the military and homeland security since 9/11. Washington is also a major threat to its own citizens: the U.S. is the world’s largest incarcerator of people, both in numbers and in proportion to its population, with 2.3 million in prison, 1 million of whom are African American.
     
    In 2017, a rigged polling was done with US allies only, still US is Greatest Threats!
    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/08/07/polls-us-greatest-threat-to-peace-world-today.html

    However, now, on August 1st of 2017, Pew Research Center has issued results of their polling of 30 nations in which they had surveyed, first in 2013, and then again in 2017, posing a less-clear but similar question (vague perhaps because they were fearing a similar type of finding — embarrassing to their own country, the US), in which respondents had been asked «Do you think that the United States’ power and influence is a major threat, a minor threat, or not a threat to (survey country)?» and which also asked this same question but regarding «China,» and then again but regarding «Russia,» as a possible threat instead of «United States». (This wasn’t an open-ended question; only those three nations were named as possible responses.)

    On page 3 of their 32-page pdf is shown that the «major threat» category was selected by 35% of respondents worldwide for «US power and influence», 31% worldwide selected that for «Russia’s power and influence,» and also 31% worldwide said it for «China’s power and influence». However, on pages 23 and 24 of the pdf is shown the 30 countries that had been surveyed in this poll, in both 2013 and 2017, and most of these 30 nations were US allies; only Venezuela clearly was not. None of the 30 countries was an ally of either Russia or China (the other two countries offered as possibly being «a major threat»). And, yet, nonetheless, more respondents among the 30 sampled countries saw the US as «a major threat», than saw either Russia or China that way.

     

    https://youtu.be/CxHMeWfKdHk
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  97. denk says:
    @CalDre
    I know why US has its reputation, sometimes I am surprised it is not worse.

    But Russia and China have a worse international reputation (Pew Aug. 2017), maybe you should wonder about that?


    http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/08/23101703/FT_17.08.11_china_us_russia_line_featured.png

    You can have your fucking government, at least we have the possibility of changing ours, hard as it may be, in China’s case, you have no say whatsoever.]

    Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton……….
    300 years of warfare, 45 war pigs in a row couldnt be a bug, it must be a feature, my dear. !

    news flash, the election is rigged !

    If you still believe in changing murikka with your votes [sic]
    then i’ve given you more credits than you deserve.

    Doing the same thing every time and expect a different result is the sign of insanity.

    utu the kid sniffs that murikka would be ruined if governed by the CCP,
    ROTFLMAO !

    Another news flash, China is progressing with each new day,
    yes, including ‘human rights’.

    whereas murikka is rotting in all departments, heading towards a banana republic, if its not already there !

    The way murkkans are blaming it all on China while their dear leaders rob them clean is truly pathetic.

    fukus is doomed.
    I only hope when it goes down, they dont drag us all with it.

    How is Falun Gong doing these days? Still tortured in prison with organs cut out and sold to Communist officials? Tibet still under the Chinese boot? Oh, yeah, you still worship Mao, the murderer of 30 million Chinese. What a lovely country!]

    This only serve to illustrate how brainwashed murikkans are, even for those who thought they know better.

    But then guilty until proven innocent is the murikkan mantra innit ?

    ‘Putin murdered his agent in UK , CASE CLOSED.’
    cuz fukusI dear leaders , everyone of which is a serial lying scumbag, say so !

    Mind you, they reserve the right to kill terrorists suspects, their families, friends, in any country they fancy.
    To make sure the kill,
    they obliterate all other houses in the vicinity of the suspect hideout .

    What a lovely country !

    hehehhehe

    In any case,
    kid,
    Tibet has been ‘under Chinese boot’ since 15C, courtesy of the Mongols !
    Yet you manage to outdone genghis Khan in 21C, the entire planet under murikkans jackboot, no mean feat that .
    hehehhe

    A friendly advice to fukusI,
    dont ever lecture anybody on human rights and imperialism…you’r simply asking for it !

    For example,
    if I challenge you ‘how many women and kids have the USA killed today ?’ , you and I know thats a undisputable fact, as opposed to the kind of craps about flg, Mao the murderer , you spill above.

    fukusI[ndia] banditry 3

    AI
    ‘Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed or “disappeared”, at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame.

    —————–

    fukusI[ndia] banditry 4

    exhibit Sudan….

    Thanks to Wikileaks we know that the CIA began paying the salaries of what is today the South Sudanese “rebel army” led by Reik Machar in 2009. And the CIA is still paying them today.

    We are talking about an army of at least 20,000 professionals with at least an equal amount of “militia”, little more than ethnic death squads, who have been actively waging combat for 18 months now in an attempt to overthrow the existing South Sudanese government.

    The bill for salaries, food, fuel, equipment and ammunition runs upwards of $100 million with the source of these funds a best kept secret.

    “Show me the money”. On the CIA payroll beginning in 2009, secret until Wikileaks broke the story, and on the CIA payroll still. It’s the CIA’s M.O. clear as day.

    When it comes time to start looking for answers for the causes of the murder and mayhem in Africa its best to follow the money trail, in this case right back to the Obama Mafia White House and its African expert, BHO’s “Quiet Consigliere”, Gayle Smith.

    Why would the Obama regime pay for this terrible crime ravaging South Sudan?

    Its all about oil. The USA wants China out of its only oil field in Africa and will pay what it takes to get whomever to do its dirty work, whether the Contra “rebel army” in Nicaragua 30 years ago (back then it was Reagan’s War) or Riek Machar’s “rebel army” fighting “Obama’s War” in South Sudan today.

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/16/obamas-war-in-south-sudan/

    What a lovely country !

    So much for China as the chosen one ,
    hehehehhe

    Read More
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  98. Anonymous[204] • Disclaimer says:
    @CalDre
    I know why US has its reputation, sometimes I am surprised it is not worse.

    But Russia and China have a worse international reputation (Pew Aug. 2017), maybe you should wonder about that?


    http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/08/23101703/FT_17.08.11_china_us_russia_line_featured.png

    Soros.

    Read More
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  99. gT says:
    @CalDre

    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.
     
    Oh my God, you and Joe Wong and Denk are fucking imbeciles. Not worth wasting another second of my time. I'm involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.

    Its their tactic, you yourself said that China has no rules, so the Chinese commentators just go on and on repeating the same lies in different ways bringing in different “facts” in a slightly distorted manner, the truth is immaterial. We’ve got a great future to look forward to if they achieve any sort of permanent global dominance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    We are now living in a rapidly changing world...Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.

    Let go your jealousy, resentment and fear; trust us, we will work together to change the world where peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit is the norm and the trend of our times.
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  100. denk says:
    @CalDre

    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.
     
    Yes this is a big problem in US, but vast majority of these killed people are armed criminals, whom you would call "terrorists". But let's compare how China acts: "the Chinese Communist Party has engaged the state in the mass killings of innocents, primarily practitioners of the spiritually based set of exercises, Falun Gong, but also Uyghurs, Tibetans, and select House Christians, in order to obtain organs for transplants."

    And here we have: "Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday."

    In Xinjiang: "at least 2,000 ethnic minority Uyghurs may have been killed by Chinese security forces following riots last week in a restive county in China’s western Xinjiang region, far more than reported by the state media".

    I don’t think Americans have any right to accuse any other country of having a “police state”.
     
    Police state isn't based on number of police killings of armed criminals. In fact that fact is entirely irrelevant to the concept.

    It’s a scandal what Americans don’t know about their own country
     
    Sigh. It’s a scandal what you don't know about reading. The red light cameras (and in some countries speeding cameras) read license plates and ticket a CAR. Chinese new police state scans people's faces and tickets the person. Right now it is only jaywalking, maybe, but soon those 200 MILLION (yes, that's 200 MILLION) surveillance cameras in China will watch every single thing you do, face-scan you and ticket you/call the police if you do something the government doesn't like. It's actually a massive difference.

    Also there is new policy, these cameras and other computers will monitor you and if you are guilty of "social misdeeds" will get a low "social credit" rating and can't, for example, travel.

    the ignorance of Americans doesn’t prevent them from hurling abuse at other countries.
     
    That's funny, you are projecting. You and your CCCP buddy "Wong" do nothing but hurl abuse, whining and yammering about this and that totally off topic. My point all along was that China is a massive WTO cheater and thief and has benefited massively from the WTO at the expense of Americans. These are just indisputable facts no matter how much foul-mouthed venom or irrelevant distractions you try to throw out there.

    So have a good life, I am done with you too.

    news.com.au, theindependent.uk
    [aka the five lies MSM]

    AND……that CIA front RFA !

    That’s your idea of credible source ???

    ———————
    journo 101 on basic rigor,

    I’ve documented here several times how fukusI
    fingered Chinese Indonesians as Beijing’s fifth columns, thus provoking a genocide that killed at least 3M.
    [sources from CIA whistle blower and UK govn archive, you cant be more authentic than that]

    If you think thats bad enough, here’s how fukusI fingered their own citizens for murder ,,,,cuz they offended Washington/London’s friendly tyrants.

    ‘In 1992, a Guatemalan guerrilla leader, Efraín Bámaca Velásquez, married to an American woman, Jennifer Harbury, was captured by the Army, tortured, and killed.

    It took three years and the intervention of Rep. Robert Torricelli to learn the truth – that a guatemalan colonel on the American payroll had ordered the killing.

    ………………………..

    A 1976 internal report of the State Department said the Chilean government “might have believed this American [Horman] could be killed without negative fallout from the US government.” And, “US intelligence may have played an unfortunate part in Horman’s death.”

    The report suggests that he was fingered for the Pinochet regime by a CIA officer undercover as a consular official.’

    https://archive.commondreams.org/view/022500-104.htm

    What a lovely country,
    The world’s oldest democracy !
    hehehhehe

    Read More
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  101. denk says:
    @CalDre
    I know why US has its reputation, sometimes I am surprised it is not worse.

    But Russia and China have a worse international reputation (Pew Aug. 2017), maybe you should wonder about that?


    http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/08/23101703/FT_17.08.11_china_us_russia_line_featured.png

    You’r not stupid and you seem well informed.
    You ought to know what kind of shit fukusI has done in this past century alone………

    “Exposing Western hypocrisy – how much more exposed can they be? Which decent human being on Earth harbours any illusions about it? These are people whose histories are spongy with the blood of others.

    Colonialism, apartheid, slavery, ethnic cleansing, germ warfare, chemical weapons – they virtually invented it all. They have plundered nations, snuffed out civilisations, exterminated entire populations. They stand on the world’s stage stark naked but entirely unembarrassed, because they know that they have more money, more food and bigger bombs than anybody else” (“The Cost of Living” by Arundhati Roy,

    which begs the question,
    How could the great satan enjoys a higher popurality rating than Russia/China ?

    I know why US has its reputation, sometimes I am surprised it is not worse.

    Good thinking ,
    You gotta thanks CIA’S mighty wurlitzer,……

    CIA

    We can play on the world’s media like a giant Wurlitzer

    http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/prsp25.htm

    Read More
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  102. denk says:
    @CalDre

    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.
     
    Oh my God, you and Joe Wong and Denk are fucking imbeciles. Not worth wasting another second of my time. I'm involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.

    Oh my God, you and Joe Wong and Denk are fucking imbeciles. Not worth wasting another second of my time. I’m involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.

    A very ‘insightful’ reply to my posts.

    kinda expecting it, typical murikkans, never fail,…..

    Ad hominem is the last refuge of a loser

    Read More
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  103. Joe Wong says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    This MSM take on the threatened trade war may be of interest:

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/trumps-tariffs-miss-the-mark-as-china-changes/news-story/b3fca9507eaeac22dfa35df6cd19d628

    The link asks money to read the article, unless you can provide altnative access, otherwise we don’t know why it is interesting. The explosive tension in the UNSC plus the trade war, we are living in a dangerous time, it is not funny at all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Here's a copy and paste version

    The Australian



    OPINION

    Trump’s tariffs miss the mark as China changes
    GLENDA KORPORAAL
    The Australian12:00AM April 5, 2018
    Share on Facebook
    Share on Twitter..
    40 Comments

    While US President Donald Trump is turning up the heat on Beijing with escalating tariffs against Chinese exports to the US, the long-term result may be the opposite of what he intended.

    The changing structure of the Chinese economy — from manufacturing to consumption, from cheap production to more sophisticated value-adding — means that the Chinese economy is now rooted in expanding trade ties with the rest of the world.

    “Made in China” and its image of the factories of Guangdong province over the border from Hong Kong is being replaced by an new policy of “Made by China”, where China increasingly outsources the production of its own brands to lower-cost counties in Asia, while its own increasingly sophisticated consumers have become a key market for locally made products.

    Increased pressure from the US will only accelerate Chinese economic ties with the rest of the world, further validating President Xi Jinping’s Belt and Road trade and infrastructure initiatives, from China west to Europe and south and west to the rest of Asia.


    The Trump tariffs may cause short-term pain for exports of Chinese hi-tech products and machinery to the US, but they will only fuel China’s determination to push its own production up the value chain.

    The US trade war will hurt US consumers — who will pay more for the products they buy in local stores such as Walmart and Costco — and US manufacturers using Chinese-made capital equipment.

    A report just produced by economists at the ANZ Bank, Raymond Yeung and Betty Wang, admits that a trade war between the US and China will hurt China.

    But it shows the changing nature of the Chinese economy means that its growing domestic sector is an increasingly important source of demand for Chinese-made products, including electronics.

    And, as global supply chains become more complex, any impact on demand for Chinese goods will flow through to demand for inputs sourced from the region, including Australia.

    Offsetting that will be a determination by China to look elsewhere for its markets of increasingly sophisticated goods.

    The report shows that US imports from China are worth $US505 billion ($656bn) a year, while US exports to China are worth $US130bn a year — leaving a trade deficit of $US375bn in China’s “favour”.

    But behind that is the changing nature of the Chinese economy.

    “China was a net importer of raw materials and exporter of consumer goods,” it notes.

    “But the last decade has seen a rapid rise in net exports of capital goods, such as machinery.

    “The local manufacturing sector is growing increasingly sophisticated to challenge developed countries.”

    If the US tariffs bite, it could encourage Chinese manufacturers to look to Europe for new markets for their capital goods. In this context, Xi’s proactive Belt and Road initiative looks increasingly prudent — a diversification by China from its reliance on trade with the US.

    The ANZ economists point out that while China is moving up the value-added chain in terms of production, China’s exports of hi-tech products as a percentage of its total exports have actually eased, from around 32 per cent in 2011 to around 28 per cent today.

    “China has benefited from vibrant global supply chains in the last decade,” it says, “mainly by providing assembly services to foreign tech companies.

    “Contrary to common perceptions, the share of hi-tech components in China’s exports has stagnated.”

    This could be because more tech products are being produced and exported from cheaper countries in Asia. At the same time an increasing amount of the market for tech products is now in China itself.

    The report homes in on the smartphone industry, which it notes is witnessing a shift from “Made in China” to “Made by China”.

    “Chinese brands like Oppo and Huawei have joined the competition in recent years, supported by a national 4G (soon to be 5G) network. The size of the domestic network allows for rapid expansion.

    “China has been the world’s factory for a long time. But by developing its own brands, the country can optimise the economic benefits from finished products such as research and development and marketing.”

    The report argues that China’s goal is to become like Japan and Germany, producing increasingly high-quality products and allowing its citizens to consume high-quality foreign goods.

    It points out that the Chinese government has actually been cutting tariffs on imported consumer products from baby formula to wine, to help its consumers access products not produced in China.

    “Trade tensions with the US will not undermine China’s determination to be a champion of globalisation,” the ANZ report argues. “China will continue to champion globalisation just as the US and Japan did decades ago,” it adds.

    As President Trump ramps up the protectionist rhetoric from Washington, Chinese president Xi Jinping is expected to use his speech to the opening of the Boao forum next week to confirm China’s view of the virtues of a more open global trading system — along the lines of his message delivered to the Davos forum in January of 2017.

    GLENDA KORPORAAL
    Associate Editor (Business)@GlendaKorporaal
    Glenda Korporaal has been covering business and finance in Australia and around the world for more than thirty years. She has worked in Sydney, Canberra, Washington, New York, London, Hong Kong and Singapore and has interviewed many of Australia's top business executives. Her career has included stints as deputy editor of the Australian Financial Review and business editor for The Bulletin magazine.








    How a sports-mad kid from Albury became a social sensation in China
    How a sports-mad kid from Albury became a social sensation in China
    The Middle Kingdom's growing wealth is creating new opportunities for innovative Australian businesses.


    The Australian

    Chinese Site


    The Australian app

    Copyright The Australian. All times AEST (GMT +10:00)
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  104. Joe Wong says:
    @gT
    Its their tactic, you yourself said that China has no rules, so the Chinese commentators just go on and on repeating the same lies in different ways bringing in different "facts" in a slightly distorted manner, the truth is immaterial. We've got a great future to look forward to if they achieve any sort of permanent global dominance.

    We are now living in a rapidly changing world…Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.

    Let go your jealousy, resentment and fear; trust us, we will work together to change the world where peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit is the norm and the trend of our times.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    gT & Caldre are those fucking scumbag that China should round up with a great wall. There is no friendship btw peaceful lambs with these white wolves. They will pound at you mercilessly whenever they gain upper hand, that's why Opium War is always in their day dream.
    , @gT
    blah blah blah blah and still more blahs

    So sorry, but I'm still youngish and my testosterone levels are still high so its not possible for me to kowtow, until many of the older folks, so very sorry.
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  105. Vidi says:
    @CalDre

    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.
     
    Yes this is a big problem in US, but vast majority of these killed people are armed criminals, whom you would call "terrorists". But let's compare how China acts: "the Chinese Communist Party has engaged the state in the mass killings of innocents, primarily practitioners of the spiritually based set of exercises, Falun Gong, but also Uyghurs, Tibetans, and select House Christians, in order to obtain organs for transplants."

    And here we have: "Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday."

    In Xinjiang: "at least 2,000 ethnic minority Uyghurs may have been killed by Chinese security forces following riots last week in a restive county in China’s western Xinjiang region, far more than reported by the state media".

    I don’t think Americans have any right to accuse any other country of having a “police state”.
     
    Police state isn't based on number of police killings of armed criminals. In fact that fact is entirely irrelevant to the concept.

    It’s a scandal what Americans don’t know about their own country
     
    Sigh. It’s a scandal what you don't know about reading. The red light cameras (and in some countries speeding cameras) read license plates and ticket a CAR. Chinese new police state scans people's faces and tickets the person. Right now it is only jaywalking, maybe, but soon those 200 MILLION (yes, that's 200 MILLION) surveillance cameras in China will watch every single thing you do, face-scan you and ticket you/call the police if you do something the government doesn't like. It's actually a massive difference.

    Also there is new policy, these cameras and other computers will monitor you and if you are guilty of "social misdeeds" will get a low "social credit" rating and can't, for example, travel.

    the ignorance of Americans doesn’t prevent them from hurling abuse at other countries.
     
    That's funny, you are projecting. You and your CCCP buddy "Wong" do nothing but hurl abuse, whining and yammering about this and that totally off topic. My point all along was that China is a massive WTO cheater and thief and has benefited massively from the WTO at the expense of Americans. These are just indisputable facts no matter how much foul-mouthed venom or irrelevant distractions you try to throw out there.

    So have a good life, I am done with you too.

    In 2015, police killed 991 people in the U.S. In the same year, five (5) people were killed by police in China.

    Yes this is a big problem in US, but vast majority of these killed people are armed criminals, whom you would call “terrorists”.

    Correction, the 991 people murdered by the American cops were what the fake news media calls terrorists. Oddly, most of these “terrorists” were black.

    But let’s compare how China acts: “the Chinese Communist Party has engaged the state in the mass killings of innocents, primarily practitioners of the spiritually based set of exercises, Falun Gong, but also Uyghurs, Tibetans, and select House Christians, in order to obtain organs for transplants.”

    Yes, this is probably more fake news. What credible evidence have you for these allegations?

    Police state isn’t based on number of police killings of armed criminals. In fact that fact is entirely irrelevant to the concept.

    There are, of course, a range of definitions for “police state”. But 991 murders by cop in the U.S. versus 5 in China certainly indicates which country’s police forces are more vicious — and therefore which country is more likely to be seen as a police state by most people in the world.

    Read More
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  106. Joe Wong says:
    @CalDre

    You just convince me im not bright to ask you a simple qn beyond your complex ability to comprehend.
     
    Oh my God, you and Joe Wong and Denk are fucking imbeciles. Not worth wasting another second of my time. I'm involved in a lot of online discussions and you three are the biggest hateful and unhinged morons I can recall in a long long time.

    We do not swear, and we present our views based on historical facts. UNZ Review is a rare case that supports freedom of speech in the West, we treasure it and appreciate very much it provides a tiny crack for us to present our view, the Chinese view not the CCP view, to the West based on our historical experience in the hope that we can resolve our differences through dialogue instead of bullets and blood. We hope we can work together to keep this lonely tiny globe continue to exist in this vast empty cold universe; we not only have the responsibility to keep ourselves survive and prosper as long as possible we also have the responsibility to keep all other living creatures on this planet to survive and prosper together with us as long as possible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT
    Joe, if you are from China, i wanted to say im very proud of your country & great leaders. They are great strategists, patriotic & work tirelessly with clear mission to miraculously transform China from a poor war ravaged country under West sanction, back to a powerful civilization with people interest in their heart, that will weed out povety in 2yrs time.

    This great trade war if go full swing will change the entire world power - US Empire economy spine (on Ponzi Finance) will be broken. China will emerge as the hyperpower with Petrol Yuan, & 1.4B of IQ105 diligent people leading in every aspects, including unmatch 3,000yrs civilization soft power.

    Here's my posting in another article.

    Mao had sum up everything neatly: “power emerge from gun barrel.” He let Chinese stand up. Deng let Chinese filled their belly. Xi is now letting Chinese fulfil their dream.

    If a good guy hospitable to friends has no guns when surrounded by wolves, he is doomed.

    So goes the Chinese old saying: ” When friends come, we have good wines. When wolves come, we have hunting rifles.”

    China just teach US what is trade war like. “We decide the rule of engagement”. Love it.

    Now Trumps has shot his own foot. China won’t let him off the hook easily without him giving the concession: leave Russia & Syria alone, or we will tighten the screw with $3T war chess and 60% saving rate that can last more than 10yrs without any trade with US.

    A nation united to fight VS US capitalists all now screaming “No Trade War idiot Trumps”. The Dow jones index just wipe out more money than Trumps targeted tariff. With only 15% export goes to US, China can easily live as usual with high savings for next 10yrs, quicken domestic market rebalance, and expand trade with Latin America & Africa. But US is doomed, civil riot awaiting when Walmart goes empty.

    Its a good show time for China to demonstrate its might to the world without firing single shot. The only country dare & powerful enough to confront US openly.

    Really admire China strategists.
     
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  107. Anon[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Wong
    We are now living in a rapidly changing world...Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.

    Let go your jealousy, resentment and fear; trust us, we will work together to change the world where peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit is the norm and the trend of our times.

    gT & Caldre are those fucking scumbag that China should round up with a great wall. There is no friendship btw peaceful lambs with these white wolves. They will pound at you mercilessly whenever they gain upper hand, that’s why Opium War is always in their day dream.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gT
    By gum, you short dicks certainly do yap incessantly.
    , @Anon
    i am russian and you have to understand that people like gt are not normal, or in influence, they are "vatniks" who don't really care for the people or the country, usually drink too much and want to keep a place where they can act in despicable ways. in vladisvostok i've grown up around japanese and chinese all the time and i've never really had much problem with them(much more from vatniks who bully me because I like japanese culture), so please don't think that he's the usual russian.

    -vavalika
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  108. TT says:
    @CalDre
    I know why US has its reputation, sometimes I am surprised it is not worse.

    But Russia and China have a worse international reputation (Pew Aug. 2017), maybe you should wonder about that?


    http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/08/23101703/FT_17.08.11_china_us_russia_line_featured.png

    Come on, you have in many postings rationally pointed out the evil US Empire, and a few left over independent countries like Russia, China, Iran, NK, Venezuela, Cuba, Syria are now resisting it bravely.

    Why do you want to go so low to continuously smear China here, who is now a high standard the world can look up for peace & prosperity with equal term?

    You are fighting against the global current to defend the greatest evil empire out of pride. Even imagine anyone speaking out for China must be Chinese & started insulting with blatant lies like CIA propagandist.

    There are tonnes of evidences you have already feasted on, yet wanted to whine how a smart China turn the table against the hedgmon that enforced unequal rules globally. There is no rules to observe in resisting evil US Empire which break every rules. The trade war will showcase how China gonna teach tyranny hedgmon US a painful lesson.

    See what even Murkans think about who is the biggest threats.
    China 1/10 lowest.
    US & UK institutions eroding 9/10 highest.

    https://www.shortlist.com/news/biggest-threats-world-2018-trump-north-korea-war/339390/amp

    2013 Gallop polls

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4531824

    There’s really no way to sugarcoat it: The rest of world believes that the United States is the country that poses the greatest threat to world peace, beating out all challengers by a wide margin.

    The world is afraid of Americans

    https://www.good.is/articles/the-world-is-afraid-of-americans/amp

    Why US is biggest threat

    https://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Why-the-US-is-the-Biggest-Threat-to-World-Peace-20150117-0024.html

    the U.S. was exceptional, a beacon of liberty and justice in the world. But after considering the trail of blood, coups and bombs that continue to follow the U.S. flag wherever it flies, it’s safe to say that the U.S. is exceptional in many things; liberty and justice are not among them.

    The U.S. leads the world in military spending, with more than US$7.6 trillion spent on the military and homeland security since 9/11. Washington is also a major threat to its own citizens: the U.S. is the world’s largest incarcerator of people, both in numbers and in proportion to its population, with 2.3 million in prison, 1 million of whom are African American.

    In 2017, a rigged polling was done with US allies only, still US is Greatest Threats!

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/08/07/polls-us-greatest-threat-to-peace-world-today.html

    However, now, on August 1st of 2017, Pew Research Center has issued results of their polling of 30 nations in which they had surveyed, first in 2013, and then again in 2017, posing a less-clear but similar question (vague perhaps because they were fearing a similar type of finding — embarrassing to their own country, the US), in which respondents had been asked «Do you think that the United States’ power and influence is a major threat, a minor threat, or not a threat to (survey country)?» and which also asked this same question but regarding «China,» and then again but regarding «Russia,» as a possible threat instead of «United States». (This wasn’t an open-ended question; only those three nations were named as possible responses.)

    On page 3 of their 32-page pdf is shown that the «major threat» category was selected by 35% of respondents worldwide for «US power and influence», 31% worldwide selected that for «Russia’s power and influence,» and also 31% worldwide said it for «China’s power and influence». However, on pages 23 and 24 of the pdf is shown the 30 countries that had been surveyed in this poll, in both 2013 and 2017, and most of these 30 nations were US allies; only Venezuela clearly was not. None of the 30 countries was an ally of either Russia or China (the other two countries offered as possibly being «a major threat»). And, yet, nonetheless, more respondents among the 30 sampled countries saw the US as «a major threat», than saw either Russia or China that way.

    Read More
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  109. TT says:
    @Joe Wong
    We do not swear, and we present our views based on historical facts. UNZ Review is a rare case that supports freedom of speech in the West, we treasure it and appreciate very much it provides a tiny crack for us to present our view, the Chinese view not the CCP view, to the West based on our historical experience in the hope that we can resolve our differences through dialogue instead of bullets and blood. We hope we can work together to keep this lonely tiny globe continue to exist in this vast empty cold universe; we not only have the responsibility to keep ourselves survive and prosper as long as possible we also have the responsibility to keep all other living creatures on this planet to survive and prosper together with us as long as possible.

    Joe, if you are from China, i wanted to say im very proud of your country & great leaders. They are great strategists, patriotic & work tirelessly with clear mission to miraculously transform China from a poor war ravaged country under West sanction, back to a powerful civilization with people interest in their heart, that will weed out povety in 2yrs time.

    This great trade war if go full swing will change the entire world power – US Empire economy spine (on Ponzi Finance) will be broken. China will emerge as the hyperpower with Petrol Yuan, & 1.4B of IQ105 diligent people leading in every aspects, including unmatch 3,000yrs civilization soft power.

    Here’s my posting in another article.

    Mao had sum up everything neatly: “power emerge from gun barrel.” He let Chinese stand up. Deng let Chinese filled their belly. Xi is now letting Chinese fulfil their dream.

    If a good guy hospitable to friends has no guns when surrounded by wolves, he is doomed.

    So goes the Chinese old saying: ” When friends come, we have good wines. When wolves come, we have hunting rifles.”

    China just teach US what is trade war like. “We decide the rule of engagement”. Love it.

    Now Trumps has shot his own foot. China won’t let him off the hook easily without him giving the concession: leave Russia & Syria alone, or we will tighten the screw with $3T war chess and 60% saving rate that can last more than 10yrs without any trade with US.

    A nation united to fight VS US capitalists all now screaming “No Trade War idiot Trumps”. The Dow jones index just wipe out more money than Trumps targeted tariff. With only 15% export goes to US, China can easily live as usual with high savings for next 10yrs, quicken domestic market rebalance, and expand trade with Latin America & Africa. But US is doomed, civil riot awaiting when Walmart goes empty.

    Its a good show time for China to demonstrate its might to the world without firing single shot. The only country dare & powerful enough to confront US openly.

    Really admire China strategists.

    Read More
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  110. gT says:
    @Joe Wong
    We are now living in a rapidly changing world...Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.

    Let go your jealousy, resentment and fear; trust us, we will work together to change the world where peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit is the norm and the trend of our times.

    blah blah blah blah and still more blahs

    So sorry, but I’m still youngish and my testosterone levels are still high so its not possible for me to kowtow, until many of the older folks, so very sorry.

    Read More
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  111. gT says:
    @Anon
    gT & Caldre are those fucking scumbag that China should round up with a great wall. There is no friendship btw peaceful lambs with these white wolves. They will pound at you mercilessly whenever they gain upper hand, that's why Opium War is always in their day dream.

    By gum, you short dicks certainly do yap incessantly.

    Read More
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  112. Anon[147] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    gT & Caldre are those fucking scumbag that China should round up with a great wall. There is no friendship btw peaceful lambs with these white wolves. They will pound at you mercilessly whenever they gain upper hand, that's why Opium War is always in their day dream.

    i am russian and you have to understand that people like gt are not normal, or in influence, they are “vatniks” who don’t really care for the people or the country, usually drink too much and want to keep a place where they can act in despicable ways. in vladisvostok i’ve grown up around japanese and chinese all the time and i’ve never really had much problem with them(much more from vatniks who bully me because I like japanese culture), so please don’t think that he’s the usual russian.

    -vavalika

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Thanks for pointing out. Indeed gT has strange attitude towards China, hence Chinese should segregate such sino hater from good Russians, just as Russia should for diehard russophobia West Europeans. There can be no negotiation between sheeps & wolves how to share food.
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  113. @Joe Wong
    The link asks money to read the article, unless you can provide altnative access, otherwise we don't know why it is interesting. The explosive tension in the UNSC plus the trade war, we are living in a dangerous time, it is not funny at all.

    Here’s a copy and paste version

    The Australian

    OPINION

    Trump’s tariffs miss the mark as China changes
    GLENDA KORPORAAL
    The Australian12:00AM April 5, 2018
    Share on Facebook
    Share on Twitter..
    40 Comments

    [MORE]

    While US President Donald Trump is turning up the heat on Beijing with escalating tariffs against Chinese exports to the US, the long-term result may be the opposite of what he intended.

    The changing structure of the Chinese economy — from manufacturing to consumption, from cheap production to more sophisticated value-adding — means that the Chinese economy is now rooted in expanding trade ties with the rest of the world.

    “Made in China” and its image of the factories of Guangdong province over the border from Hong Kong is being replaced by an new policy of “Made by China”, where China increasingly outsources the production of its own brands to lower-cost counties in Asia, while its own increasingly sophisticated consumers have become a key market for locally made products.

    Increased pressure from the US will only accelerate Chinese economic ties with the rest of the world, further validating President Xi Jinping’s Belt and Road trade and infrastructure initiatives, from China west to Europe and south and west to the rest of Asia.

    The Trump tariffs may cause short-term pain for exports of Chinese hi-tech products and machinery to the US, but they will only fuel China’s determination to push its own production up the value chain.

    The US trade war will hurt US consumers — who will pay more for the products they buy in local stores such as Walmart and Costco — and US manufacturers using Chinese-made capital equipment.

    A report just produced by economists at the ANZ Bank, Raymond Yeung and Betty Wang, admits that a trade war between the US and China will hurt China.

    But it shows the changing nature of the Chinese economy means that its growing domestic sector is an increasingly important source of demand for Chinese-made products, including electronics.

    And, as global supply chains become more complex, any impact on demand for Chinese goods will flow through to demand for inputs sourced from the region, including Australia.

    Offsetting that will be a determination by China to look elsewhere for its markets of increasingly sophisticated goods.

    The report shows that US imports from China are worth $US505 billion ($656bn) a year, while US exports to China are worth $US130bn a year — leaving a trade deficit of $US375bn in China’s “favour”.

    But behind that is the changing nature of the Chinese economy.

    “China was a net importer of raw materials and exporter of consumer goods,” it notes.

    “But the last decade has seen a rapid rise in net exports of capital goods, such as machinery.

    “The local manufacturing sector is growing increasingly sophisticated to challenge developed countries.”

    If the US tariffs bite, it could encourage Chinese manufacturers to look to Europe for new markets for their capital goods. In this context, Xi’s proactive Belt and Road initiative looks increasingly prudent — a diversification by China from its reliance on trade with the US.

    The ANZ economists point out that while China is moving up the value-added chain in terms of production, China’s exports of hi-tech products as a percentage of its total exports have actually eased, from around 32 per cent in 2011 to around 28 per cent today.

    “China has benefited from vibrant global supply chains in the last decade,” it says, “mainly by providing assembly services to foreign tech companies.

    “Contrary to common perceptions, the share of hi-tech components in China’s exports has stagnated.”

    This could be because more tech products are being produced and exported from cheaper countries in Asia. At the same time an increasing amount of the market for tech products is now in China itself.

    The report homes in on the smartphone industry, which it notes is witnessing a shift from “Made in China” to “Made by China”.

    “Chinese brands like Oppo and Huawei have joined the competition in recent years, supported by a national 4G (soon to be 5G) network. The size of the domestic network allows for rapid expansion.

    “China has been the world’s factory for a long time. But by developing its own brands, the country can optimise the economic benefits from finished products such as research and development and marketing.”

    The report argues that China’s goal is to become like Japan and Germany, producing increasingly high-quality products and allowing its citizens to consume high-quality foreign goods.

    It points out that the Chinese government has actually been cutting tariffs on imported consumer products from baby formula to wine, to help its consumers access products not produced in China.

    “Trade tensions with the US will not undermine China’s determination to be a champion of globalisation,” the ANZ report argues. “China will continue to champion globalisation just as the US and Japan did decades ago,” it adds.

    As President Trump ramps up the protectionist rhetoric from Washington, Chinese president Xi Jinping is expected to use his speech to the opening of the Boao forum next week to confirm China’s view of the virtues of a more open global trading system — along the lines of his message delivered to the Davos forum in January of 2017.

    GLENDA KORPORAAL
    Associate Editor (Business)@GlendaKorporaal
    Glenda Korporaal has been covering business and finance in Australia and around the world for more than thirty years. She has worked in Sydney, Canberra, Washington, New York, London, Hong Kong and Singapore and has interviewed many of Australia’s top business executives. Her career has included stints as deputy editor of the Australian Financial Review and business editor for The Bulletin magazine.

    How a sports-mad kid from Albury became a social sensation in China
    How a sports-mad kid from Albury became a social sensation in China
    The Middle Kingdom’s growing wealth is creating new opportunities for innovative Australian businesses.

    The Australian

    Chinese Site

    The Australian app

    Copyright The Australian. All times AEST (GMT +10:00)

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT
    Your posted subscription links is always not accessible, pls take note.

    While US President Donald Trump is turning up the heat on Beijing with escalating tariffs against Chinese exports to the US, the long-term result may be the opposite of what he intended.
     
    This writer has missed some important deeper points. The entire trade war is not just serving Trumps' gimmick for year end election only, it also serve to block Made by China 2025 plan & aspiration to move up supply chain to high tech innovation. This is China core interest, not to be negotiated.

    All high tech products like aerospace, flat TV, medical, semicon, telecomm, robotics, etc are targeted purposefully to deny China development like 5G & AI, access to US market, and West technology sharing.

    US plan to keep China at bottom supply chain with meagre margins while US continue to reap high profit at top end, with dominant control to entire high tech supply.

    China knows, its a trade blockage to its 2025 plan, like 70% self sufficient target in semicon. West & Japan have been blocking China access to semicon technology since 1950's, refused high tech equipments sales, with sprawling IP filing to sue late comer. Only simpleton like Caldre believe US has been generously transferring technology & FDI to make China successful.

    Trumps steel & alu tariffs is catalyst aimed to split EU & others to block China trade, as it exempted some countries while China accounted for merely 4% is targeted. Its to blackmail China into accepting unequal terms in later trade negotiation, and to obsolete WTO after it has finished serving China Squeezing purpose. China well seasoned technocrat leaders see through what a little biz man Trumps' team is up to.

    After China countered with Trumps $3B steel & alu tariffs targeting his agri redneck voting bank, Trumps arrogantly list out $50B tariffs as bigger threat, while tweeting no trade war with his trade minister seeking visit to Beijing. China slap back $50B list on cars, aerospace, agri, etc. within 12hrs, very impressive speed to deny Trumps chance to back down.

    Without China expanding largest market, US car industry will relegate to 2nd tier, surpass by Germany & Jp. Boeing will have less orders. Such market unable to meet certain production qty can turn profit to loss as overhead is high.

    China export only account for 19% of its GDP, with US accounted for 15%. So China can live without US trade, unlike other country. With its strong production base & policy, $3T reserves, it can expedite restructuring to emerge stronger.

    US will miss the world largest market, while China continue its trade expansion into the world enabled by BRI to generate wealth to more countries, hence new market for China.

    And Petrol Yuan will be expanded into all tradings at faster pace since a prosperous US market no longer a bonus, hence a quicken death to US dollar.

    Now Trumps unable to retract unless China let him climb down by concession, has up his bet to $100B, China vowed to follow suit at any cost. Also China file complaint to WTO.

    So trade war will be retaliated in full force. China just warn that it will not just trading be targeted, asymmetric war will be applied to stop many strategic cooperations.

    Most Chinese trade bodies & Chinese are supporting their gov to fight all out as they perceived that as US bully, vs all murkans jumping angrily over what's gonna hit their livelihood.

    Also many US companies are producing in China to import back cheap, tariffs only hurt them & US consumers, together with EU & Jp, Korea losing export to China, as China is only the assembly line making up small value.

    There is another huge service sector, oil & gas import, & financial market that US has big trade surplus, which China will target at its discretion. US FDI is also reaping huge profit in China, like car joint venture, which will be screwed when trade war escalate. Plenty of buttons for China to press, since China is more open to US investment than US to China.

    China will now control the game play by its own rule in scaling up or down, as Trumps can't show weakness to back down even US can ill afford a full trade war with its weak economy, jobless & high debts.

    And its people simply aren't keen in trade war hardship as there isn't cheaper replacement to vast China products stocking all shelves nor any manufacturing capacity to boost jobs.

    Trumps has dig a big hole for himself, deeper as he up ante with fantasy thinking that he can hold China ransom in new trade nego(cheap developer technique, talk tough threaten to walk away to squeeze supplier), while getting some extra tax revenue from new tariffs.

    He has more self mined IED in new Taiwan Relationship law, coming NK nego, Diayu Island, SCS FON, all touching China core interest, awaiting his foolish detonation as bargain chip to China which will flare up at his face. His grand daughter Mandarin poems singing at Chinese Embassy won't work anymore.

    Its amazing US allowed their country to rule over by idiots in a row run with team of inexperienced banker & generals. How are these clowns gonna compete with China best elite technocrat leaders carefully proven & elected over few decades.

    It will be a interesting year to watch how it shape geopolitics, with Petro Yuan, Trade war & Syria war as Trumps tweeted to exit while alarming heavy assets are flown into their Syria & Jordan new bases. Taking on rivalry best strength simultaneously, Russia military & China economy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  114. Anon[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    i am russian and you have to understand that people like gt are not normal, or in influence, they are "vatniks" who don't really care for the people or the country, usually drink too much and want to keep a place where they can act in despicable ways. in vladisvostok i've grown up around japanese and chinese all the time and i've never really had much problem with them(much more from vatniks who bully me because I like japanese culture), so please don't think that he's the usual russian.

    -vavalika

    Thanks for pointing out. Indeed gT has strange attitude towards China, hence Chinese should segregate such sino hater from good Russians, just as Russia should for diehard russophobia West Europeans. There can be no negotiation between sheeps & wolves how to share food.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gT
    Oh dear, so now I'm Russian again. But this vatnik business actually doesn't sound too bad

    "vatnik

    A Russian jingoist and a supporter of Putin's politics. Exhibits stereotypical traits of a Russian jingoist: alcoholism, slovenliness, poverty and unconditional support of any decision of the Russian government.

    – Crimea is ours!
    – You are such a vatnik! "

    "The word "vatnik" can be used by Russians both in negative manner, to describe those of Russians who show forms of patriotism that are too jingoistic or foolish,[28] and sometimes in positive manner – to express speaker's support for some aspects of Russian culture/values/politics."

    It really sounds like I'm in the majority there in Russia, especially with regards to the alcohol and Putin, traditional values and conservatism, self-sufficiency. Yes, screw globalization / integration, man must make his own vodka, Chinaman will put industrial solvents into the vodka to give it kick and sell it to you at a cheaper price instead of taking the time and effort to ferment and distill it properly.
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  115. TT says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Here's a copy and paste version

    The Australian



    OPINION

    Trump’s tariffs miss the mark as China changes
    GLENDA KORPORAAL
    The Australian12:00AM April 5, 2018
    Share on Facebook
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    40 Comments

    While US President Donald Trump is turning up the heat on Beijing with escalating tariffs against Chinese exports to the US, the long-term result may be the opposite of what he intended.

    The changing structure of the Chinese economy — from manufacturing to consumption, from cheap production to more sophisticated value-adding — means that the Chinese economy is now rooted in expanding trade ties with the rest of the world.

    “Made in China” and its image of the factories of Guangdong province over the border from Hong Kong is being replaced by an new policy of “Made by China”, where China increasingly outsources the production of its own brands to lower-cost counties in Asia, while its own increasingly sophisticated consumers have become a key market for locally made products.

    Increased pressure from the US will only accelerate Chinese economic ties with the rest of the world, further validating President Xi Jinping’s Belt and Road trade and infrastructure initiatives, from China west to Europe and south and west to the rest of Asia.


    The Trump tariffs may cause short-term pain for exports of Chinese hi-tech products and machinery to the US, but they will only fuel China’s determination to push its own production up the value chain.

    The US trade war will hurt US consumers — who will pay more for the products they buy in local stores such as Walmart and Costco — and US manufacturers using Chinese-made capital equipment.

    A report just produced by economists at the ANZ Bank, Raymond Yeung and Betty Wang, admits that a trade war between the US and China will hurt China.

    But it shows the changing nature of the Chinese economy means that its growing domestic sector is an increasingly important source of demand for Chinese-made products, including electronics.

    And, as global supply chains become more complex, any impact on demand for Chinese goods will flow through to demand for inputs sourced from the region, including Australia.

    Offsetting that will be a determination by China to look elsewhere for its markets of increasingly sophisticated goods.

    The report shows that US imports from China are worth $US505 billion ($656bn) a year, while US exports to China are worth $US130bn a year — leaving a trade deficit of $US375bn in China’s “favour”.

    But behind that is the changing nature of the Chinese economy.

    “China was a net importer of raw materials and exporter of consumer goods,” it notes.

    “But the last decade has seen a rapid rise in net exports of capital goods, such as machinery.

    “The local manufacturing sector is growing increasingly sophisticated to challenge developed countries.”

    If the US tariffs bite, it could encourage Chinese manufacturers to look to Europe for new markets for their capital goods. In this context, Xi’s proactive Belt and Road initiative looks increasingly prudent — a diversification by China from its reliance on trade with the US.

    The ANZ economists point out that while China is moving up the value-added chain in terms of production, China’s exports of hi-tech products as a percentage of its total exports have actually eased, from around 32 per cent in 2011 to around 28 per cent today.

    “China has benefited from vibrant global supply chains in the last decade,” it says, “mainly by providing assembly services to foreign tech companies.

    “Contrary to common perceptions, the share of hi-tech components in China’s exports has stagnated.”

    This could be because more tech products are being produced and exported from cheaper countries in Asia. At the same time an increasing amount of the market for tech products is now in China itself.

    The report homes in on the smartphone industry, which it notes is witnessing a shift from “Made in China” to “Made by China”.

    “Chinese brands like Oppo and Huawei have joined the competition in recent years, supported by a national 4G (soon to be 5G) network. The size of the domestic network allows for rapid expansion.

    “China has been the world’s factory for a long time. But by developing its own brands, the country can optimise the economic benefits from finished products such as research and development and marketing.”

    The report argues that China’s goal is to become like Japan and Germany, producing increasingly high-quality products and allowing its citizens to consume high-quality foreign goods.

    It points out that the Chinese government has actually been cutting tariffs on imported consumer products from baby formula to wine, to help its consumers access products not produced in China.

    “Trade tensions with the US will not undermine China’s determination to be a champion of globalisation,” the ANZ report argues. “China will continue to champion globalisation just as the US and Japan did decades ago,” it adds.

    As President Trump ramps up the protectionist rhetoric from Washington, Chinese president Xi Jinping is expected to use his speech to the opening of the Boao forum next week to confirm China’s view of the virtues of a more open global trading system — along the lines of his message delivered to the Davos forum in January of 2017.

    GLENDA KORPORAAL
    Associate Editor (Business)@GlendaKorporaal
    Glenda Korporaal has been covering business and finance in Australia and around the world for more than thirty years. She has worked in Sydney, Canberra, Washington, New York, London, Hong Kong and Singapore and has interviewed many of Australia's top business executives. Her career has included stints as deputy editor of the Australian Financial Review and business editor for The Bulletin magazine.








    How a sports-mad kid from Albury became a social sensation in China
    How a sports-mad kid from Albury became a social sensation in China
    The Middle Kingdom's growing wealth is creating new opportunities for innovative Australian businesses.


    The Australian

    Chinese Site


    The Australian app

    Copyright The Australian. All times AEST (GMT +10:00)

    Your posted subscription links is always not accessible, pls take note.

    While US President Donald Trump is turning up the heat on Beijing with escalating tariffs against Chinese exports to the US, the long-term result may be the opposite of what he intended.

    This writer has missed some important deeper points. The entire trade war is not just serving Trumps’ gimmick for year end election only, it also serve to block Made by China 2025 plan & aspiration to move up supply chain to high tech innovation. This is China core interest, not to be negotiated.

    All high tech products like aerospace, flat TV, medical, semicon, telecomm, robotics, etc are targeted purposefully to deny China development like 5G & AI, access to US market, and West technology sharing.

    US plan to keep China at bottom supply chain with meagre margins while US continue to reap high profit at top end, with dominant control to entire high tech supply.

    China knows, its a trade blockage to its 2025 plan, like 70% self sufficient target in semicon. West & Japan have been blocking China access to semicon technology since 1950′s, refused high tech equipments sales, with sprawling IP filing to sue late comer. Only simpleton like Caldre believe US has been generously transferring technology & FDI to make China successful.

    Trumps steel & alu tariffs is catalyst aimed to split EU & others to block China trade, as it exempted some countries while China accounted for merely 4% is targeted. Its to blackmail China into accepting unequal terms in later trade negotiation, and to obsolete WTO after it has finished serving China Squeezing purpose. China well seasoned technocrat leaders see through what a little biz man Trumps’ team is up to.

    After China countered with Trumps $3B steel & alu tariffs targeting his agri redneck voting bank, Trumps arrogantly list out $50B tariffs as bigger threat, while tweeting no trade war with his trade minister seeking visit to Beijing. China slap back $50B list on cars, aerospace, agri, etc. within 12hrs, very impressive speed to deny Trumps chance to back down.

    Without China expanding largest market, US car industry will relegate to 2nd tier, surpass by Germany & Jp. Boeing will have less orders. Such market unable to meet certain production qty can turn profit to loss as overhead is high.

    China export only account for 19% of its GDP, with US accounted for 15%. So China can live without US trade, unlike other country. With its strong production base & policy, $3T reserves, it can expedite restructuring to emerge stronger.

    US will miss the world largest market, while China continue its trade expansion into the world enabled by BRI to generate wealth to more countries, hence new market for China.

    And Petrol Yuan will be expanded into all tradings at faster pace since a prosperous US market no longer a bonus, hence a quicken death to US dollar.

    Now Trumps unable to retract unless China let him climb down by concession, has up his bet to $100B, China vowed to follow suit at any cost. Also China file complaint to WTO.

    So trade war will be retaliated in full force. China just warn that it will not just trading be targeted, asymmetric war will be applied to stop many strategic cooperations.

    Most Chinese trade bodies & Chinese are supporting their gov to fight all out as they perceived that as US bully, vs all murkans jumping angrily over what’s gonna hit their livelihood.

    Also many US companies are producing in China to import back cheap, tariffs only hurt them & US consumers, together with EU & Jp, Korea losing export to China, as China is only the assembly line making up small value.

    There is another huge service sector, oil & gas import, & financial market that US has big trade surplus, which China will target at its discretion. US FDI is also reaping huge profit in China, like car joint venture, which will be screwed when trade war escalate. Plenty of buttons for China to press, since China is more open to US investment than US to China.

    China will now control the game play by its own rule in scaling up or down, as Trumps can’t show weakness to back down even US can ill afford a full trade war with its weak economy, jobless & high debts.

    And its people simply aren’t keen in trade war hardship as there isn’t cheaper replacement to vast China products stocking all shelves nor any manufacturing capacity to boost jobs.

    Trumps has dig a big hole for himself, deeper as he up ante with fantasy thinking that he can hold China ransom in new trade nego(cheap developer technique, talk tough threaten to walk away to squeeze supplier), while getting some extra tax revenue from new tariffs.

    He has more self mined IED in new Taiwan Relationship law, coming NK nego, Diayu Island, SCS FON, all touching China core interest, awaiting his foolish detonation as bargain chip to China which will flare up at his face. His grand daughter Mandarin poems singing at Chinese Embassy won’t work anymore.

    Its amazing US allowed their country to rule over by idiots in a row run with team of inexperienced banker & generals. How are these clowns gonna compete with China best elite technocrat leaders carefully proven & elected over few decades.

    It will be a interesting year to watch how it shape geopolitics, with Petro Yuan, Trade war & Syria war as Trumps tweeted to exit while alarming heavy assets are flown into their Syria & Jordan new bases. Taking on rivalry best strength simultaneously, Russia military & China economy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    Disagree, China exports a lot more to America than vice versa. Tariffs will hit some US companies hard, but overall China will suffer more than the US. Also, remember that many Chinese exports to US are products produced for European and Japanese companies. Germany and Japan will probably be hit harder than the US, which is why they're getting alarmed. If the US had a tariff war with Latin America it might be a different story, as the US has an export surplus with Latin America, but you can't loose a trade war with a country you have a big trade deficit with.

    You're making the western mistake of looking at this from the perspective of individual actors rather than nations.
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  116. @Anonymous
    What is the story on how the. Chinese profited on barbarian tributes? What did they gain from this arrangement?

    After they received their bribes, the barbarians insisted on year-round trading rights w China which, after weakly protesting, the Chinese granted. They then proceeded to win back, in profit, more than the value of the tribute they’d paid.

    Sound familiar?

    Read More
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  117. @Wizard of Oz
    I have instinctive sympathy for those whose informed approach to a subject might be characterised as a product of eccentric individualism. But now that I have found out a bit more about the author online, including in Quora, i suspect that the Sage of Chiang Mai suffers from too few people around to contradict him and a tendency to shout so everyone knows that this chap waggling his ears to grab the visitor's attention really has a lot of interesting and important inside knowledge to purvey. Which may be true, but..... He is an Australian (or was brought up in Oz) , living in Thailand (because he went broke in the US) which surprises me only because it is his apparent ignorance of the nuts and bolts of Australian politics that made me assume he was American when criticising his overstatements on a subject I know a lot more about than he. Still, not all bad, he picked up on Kevin Rudd's defects of character and as PM. On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.

    Profoundly insightful, an almost invaluable contribution to this discussion on the WTO.

    Read More
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  118. @Wizard of Oz
    The latest Economist has more than one interesting piece on China. It makes Xi sound a bit like Oliver Cromwell. Don't bother to quibble: I refer mostly to the fact that he has something of a puritan streak. Nonetheless that is consistent with his having used the anti corruption drive which leaves a lot of bureaucrats and businessman feeling uncomfortable about the changes in the world they have been living in to single out potential rivals and their hangers on. And that leads me to what I find most disconcerting about that civilised country, and that is the legal system and the principles on which it is run. The Economist quotes a conviction rate of about 99.9 per cent. And the most senior judge describing independence of the judiciary as an unwanted Western idea. On top of that there is a lot of harassing and sometimes kidnapping people from foreign countries who are wanted for alleged crimes (an ancient driving offence in one absurd case!). It seems to be worse than anything the US gets up to except in cases of alleged terrorism and raises the question when extradition treaties and law everywhere is going to be reformed.... But on the Chinese approach to rule of law it would be interesting to know whether Godfree Roberts has an informed and considered view.

    the Chinese approach to rule of laws that it must always degenerate into tricksterism unless it is subject to rule of virtue. That’s what the CCP is supposed to provide and Xi is expected to exemplify.

    Does he?

    “I would put him in the Nelson Mandela’s class of persons. A person with enormous emotional stability who does not allow his personal misfortunes or sufferings affect his judgment. In other words, he is impressive.” Lee Kwan Yew, Founder of Singapore.

    http://world.time.com/2007/11/19/chinas_nelson_mandela/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    We ate perhaps not talking quite the same language unless your "rule of laws [sic]" is a typing error.

    [Too many typos]

    The Westrrn, especislly Common Law tradition is Rule of Law [singular] as agsinst the Rule of Men. Of course case law developed the Common Law but the theory largely adhered to was that the principles on which previous cases had neen decided determined what the applicable rules were and a judge's personal prefrrences had to give way to any established principles which could intellectually, by proper judicial method, be applied to the instant case. I daresay the Continent of Europe was more influenced by Nstural Law doctrines but with a similar striving to remove the person of the judge, including his personal virtue or otherwise, from the adjudicating process. To my mind the proof beyond ressonable doubt rule in criminal cases is a similar attempt to avoid having the law damsge people by inflicting on them the results of fallible human judgment. From what I understand about the Mandarin traditions and respect for elders and authority in Chinese culture I wouldn't fancy my chsnces as an innocent defendant in s criminsl case. That is consistent with what I was told by a Chinese speaking English businessman who had been born in Tianjin and grew up in China. He had served on a Hong Kong jury of 7 with six ethnic Chinese and said they all were for simply accepting what the prosecution alleged despite what he thought were real doubts that had been raised.
    , @TT
    If we observed carefully, every world leaders are vocal in their every major events or policies, except China Prez Xi.

    In most tense moment of South China Seas nuke confrontation with USN strike groups, to India Donglan confrontation last year, and current trade war, Prez Xi remained unusually silent to go about his domestic affairs as usual. Only relevant office spoke persons make announcement.

    But he will spoke at length in various international events with well crafted speech promoting on peace, shared destiny, fair terms multipolar world, go green & globalization. And he spent more times in addressing domestic issues & inspiring his people than foreign affairs.

    Such is Prez Xi exuding great confident & stable emotion, revealing he has everything in his control with his very capable team, to focus only on his domestic restructuring & global grand plan.

    LKY didn't live to see these, to exclaim Prez Xi is more than Nelson Mandela, may be half way of Deng XP, a class that required multiple unusual crisis and wars to attain.
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  119. @Godfree Roberts
    the Chinese approach to rule of laws that it must always degenerate into tricksterism unless it is subject to rule of virtue. That's what the CCP is supposed to provide and Xi is expected to exemplify.

    Does he?

    “I would put him in the Nelson Mandela’s class of persons. A person with enormous emotional stability who does not allow his personal misfortunes or sufferings affect his judgment. In other words, he is impressive.” Lee Kwan Yew, Founder of Singapore.
    http://world.time.com/2007/11/19/chinas_nelson_mandela/

    We ate perhaps not talking quite the same language unless your “rule of laws [sic]” is a typing error.

    [Too many typos]

    The Westrrn, especislly Common Law tradition is Rule of Law [singular] as agsinst the Rule of Men. Of course case law developed the Common Law but the theory largely adhered to was that the principles on which previous cases had neen decided determined what the applicable rules were and a judge’s personal prefrrences had to give way to any established principles which could intellectually, by proper judicial method, be applied to the instant case. I daresay the Continent of Europe was more influenced by Nstural Law doctrines but with a similar striving to remove the person of the judge, including his personal virtue or otherwise, from the adjudicating process. To my mind the proof beyond ressonable doubt rule in criminal cases is a similar attempt to avoid having the law damsge people by inflicting on them the results of fallible human judgment. From what I understand about the Mandarin traditions and respect for elders and authority in Chinese culture I wouldn’t fancy my chsnces as an innocent defendant in s criminsl case. That is consistent with what I was told by a Chinese speaking English businessman who had been born in Tianjin and grew up in China. He had served on a Hong Kong jury of 7 with six ethnic Chinese and said they all were for simply accepting what the prosecution alleged despite what he thought were real doubts that had been raised.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Nice anecdote. I could just as easily come up with an example in the west about a black man on trial and sitting on a jury with 6 other southerners.
    , @Godfree Roberts
    This is not a topic that lends itself to anecdotes. China's well-documented experience with rule of law goes back 3000 years and is ongoing.

    Briefly, Between 2012-2016, violent crime fell forty-three percent (road fatalities dropped fifty-six percent) and satisfaction with public security rose from eighty-seven percent to ninety-two percent making China one of the most trusting, law-biding societies on earth.

    When Harvard’s Tony Saich asked the public to prioritize their concerns, they ranked ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ highest and, when he asked which government service they were most satisfied with they again placed ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ first.

    Today, after the most lawless century in Chinese history, death penalties are declining and the Social Credit campaign promises to create a smooth transition to a just, xiaokang society.
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  120. TT says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I have instinctive sympathy for those whose informed approach to a subject might be characterised as a product of eccentric individualism. But now that I have found out a bit more about the author online, including in Quora, i suspect that the Sage of Chiang Mai suffers from too few people around to contradict him and a tendency to shout so everyone knows that this chap waggling his ears to grab the visitor's attention really has a lot of interesting and important inside knowledge to purvey. Which may be true, but..... He is an Australian (or was brought up in Oz) , living in Thailand (because he went broke in the US) which surprises me only because it is his apparent ignorance of the nuts and bolts of Australian politics that made me assume he was American when criticising his overstatements on a subject I know a lot more about than he. Still, not all bad, he picked up on Kevin Rudd's defects of character and as PM. On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.

    On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.

    While we don’t know what happens between your encounter with Mr Roberts that make you commented on his credibility as doubtful, do you have any to share on what he has writen so far in unz about China that you think is not factual or doubtful to say he has starry eye?

    So far i have find his articles & comments are quite factual with reference sources without putting in too much personal judgement. That make him one of most credible writer in unz.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I think I have been quite respectful by UR comment standards of Mr Roberts, of whom I had never heard when I first read or skimmed his interesting paean to Mao. It took me back to early days when I had been reading Felix Greene and Edgar Snow (though I have a guilty suspicion that "Red Star Over China" mostly sat accusingly on the bedside table) and I made some observation about China not historically bding expansionist and anyway not threatening us whatever it had inflicted on India over borders before leaving. An elderly judge noted the similar starry eyed views being spread around at the time of the Spanish Civil War snd helped to reinforce my natural scepticism and tolerance of uncrrtainty.

    If I have seemed to be rude to Mr Godfree (whom I add to my quite long list of people I admire for coming back enterprisingly from financial disaster: I remember my own bad times and shudder at the thought they could have been as bad as others have suffeted) please note that my princcipal activity wrt UR is to decide, when I have woken earlier than I wish to rise, to find some bad/sloppy/carelessly expressed arguments to criticise - especially pathological certainties, if not ssneer at. I have very few certainties or even strongly held views that I want ti blow fruitlessly into the blogosphere. So....

    I warned Mr Godfree and other readers that I had detected one symptom of unreluability that lifelong experience has taught me should fortify my scepticism and nit picking. He's quite a salesman - good luck to him - he reminds me of a friend in another Asian country who has similarly staged something of a recovery from a failed business at home - but overblown assertions about politics which I absolutely know to be wrong fortify the irritated sceptic in me - irritated in part because I have to restrain my pleasure at coming across a novel perspective. Having just decided on investigation that L. Fletcher Prouty was at best a Walter Mitty character rather than source of important information I am sensitised to these matters.

    , @foolisholdman
    I take it that you are Chinese. I am glad you said that, as it confirms what I thought.
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  121. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    As usual you missed the point. (No wonder you lost your paid trolling contract. The Chinese employers you look to are of course very smart). My only point against him, and that only tentatively, was that I noticed he was Australian but fidn't know nearly as much about Australian politics as he claimed to. Thus some doubt was cast on his credibility.

    So anyone who says something you deem as pro China must be paid by the gov?

    How bout trying to debate ideas and not the person instead of ad hominem attacks when you can’t think of something.

    Oh, by the way. It is common knowledge that the west pays for content and news all the time via CNN, Hollywood, and online content. So maybe you are a paid troll too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    What a lot of words with which to prove you have a tin ear. I was just jeering at a low IQ performsnce.
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  122. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    We ate perhaps not talking quite the same language unless your "rule of laws [sic]" is a typing error.

    [Too many typos]

    The Westrrn, especislly Common Law tradition is Rule of Law [singular] as agsinst the Rule of Men. Of course case law developed the Common Law but the theory largely adhered to was that the principles on which previous cases had neen decided determined what the applicable rules were and a judge's personal prefrrences had to give way to any established principles which could intellectually, by proper judicial method, be applied to the instant case. I daresay the Continent of Europe was more influenced by Nstural Law doctrines but with a similar striving to remove the person of the judge, including his personal virtue or otherwise, from the adjudicating process. To my mind the proof beyond ressonable doubt rule in criminal cases is a similar attempt to avoid having the law damsge people by inflicting on them the results of fallible human judgment. From what I understand about the Mandarin traditions and respect for elders and authority in Chinese culture I wouldn't fancy my chsnces as an innocent defendant in s criminsl case. That is consistent with what I was told by a Chinese speaking English businessman who had been born in Tianjin and grew up in China. He had served on a Hong Kong jury of 7 with six ethnic Chinese and said they all were for simply accepting what the prosecution alleged despite what he thought were real doubts that had been raised.

    Nice anecdote. I could just as easily come up with an example in the west about a black man on trial and sitting on a jury with 6 other southerners.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Quite.
    Unfortunately that barbarian tradition is even worse. However....

    My point is about a cultural tradition which defers to authority rather than one which cobdones injustice because of racial prejudice. Gottit?

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  123. @Wizard of Oz
    We ate perhaps not talking quite the same language unless your "rule of laws [sic]" is a typing error.

    [Too many typos]

    The Westrrn, especislly Common Law tradition is Rule of Law [singular] as agsinst the Rule of Men. Of course case law developed the Common Law but the theory largely adhered to was that the principles on which previous cases had neen decided determined what the applicable rules were and a judge's personal prefrrences had to give way to any established principles which could intellectually, by proper judicial method, be applied to the instant case. I daresay the Continent of Europe was more influenced by Nstural Law doctrines but with a similar striving to remove the person of the judge, including his personal virtue or otherwise, from the adjudicating process. To my mind the proof beyond ressonable doubt rule in criminal cases is a similar attempt to avoid having the law damsge people by inflicting on them the results of fallible human judgment. From what I understand about the Mandarin traditions and respect for elders and authority in Chinese culture I wouldn't fancy my chsnces as an innocent defendant in s criminsl case. That is consistent with what I was told by a Chinese speaking English businessman who had been born in Tianjin and grew up in China. He had served on a Hong Kong jury of 7 with six ethnic Chinese and said they all were for simply accepting what the prosecution alleged despite what he thought were real doubts that had been raised.

    This is not a topic that lends itself to anecdotes. China’s well-documented experience with rule of law goes back 3000 years and is ongoing.

    Briefly, Between 2012-2016, violent crime fell forty-three percent (road fatalities dropped fifty-six percent) and satisfaction with public security rose from eighty-seven percent to ninety-two percent making China one of the most trusting, law-biding societies on earth.

    When Harvard’s Tony Saich asked the public to prioritize their concerns, they ranked ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ highest and, when he asked which government service they were most satisfied with they again placed ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ first.

    Today, after the most lawless century in Chinese history, death penalties are declining and the Social Credit campaign promises to create a smooth transition to a just, xiaokang society.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting and good news in its way but I am not sure you get the distinction I point to between the different traditions. I don't understand the "Legalists" of centuries BC as having a philosophical/jurisprudential base in common with Western rule-of-law-not-of-men lawyers and legal philosophers. You are pretty good at winging it but I don't expect you to expound that Chinese Legalism esppecially when you pause to consider your rash attribution of rule of law to China back 3000
    years unless you choose to ignore, for example, the first emperor and his son...

    Mind you I deplore the US criminal justice system with its noxious combination of public slander (protected by the First Amendment), threats, overcharging and plea deals. I also deplore the rise of law-and-order-and-victims-free-kicks populism in other Anglophone countries. However....

    The Chinese control of law (including illegal) enforcement and adjudication by the CCP is in another universe. In legal historical terms it goes back to huge populsr approval rates when royal or feudal or any authority's forces gave the people burning of witches and heretics and hanging drawing and quartering of alleged traitors of a dissident religion to enormous enthusiasm of the crowd. And that's without considering those incorroptible French models of rectitude in the 1790s who briefly set the pace for successors like the CCP.

    But I admire the old Bar traditions in my country where "the liberty of the subject comes first" meant that a bail appeal conducted by junior counsel was heard before the QC was allowed to seek an injunction over a $25 million property. Now of course the right to bail everywhere is attenuated, and most often - when not because of ideology or malice - for lack of imagination as to what could be done to secure competing interests without incarceration. That doesn't mean that a system which allows the CCP to snatch, lock up and convict at 99 per cent rates is accepttable on any view of human nature that I would regard as realistic. (No rule of the saints ever, anywhere, past, present or future. Good doctrine and principles can help. China is probably hurt by having a tradition of civilisation which they like to take pride in however much it failed them when modernity emerged elsewhere. Nelson Mandela with no such historical burden had no problem understanding and valuing the Wesyern concept of rule of law**)

    **Don't you find it depressing that, absent this footnote, some idiotic comment would probably ignore the word "concrpt" in what I have just written?
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  124. @TT

    On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.
     
    While we don't know what happens between your encounter with Mr Roberts that make you commented on his credibility as doubtful, do you have any to share on what he has writen so far in unz about China that you think is not factual or doubtful to say he has starry eye?

    So far i have find his articles & comments are quite factual with reference sources without putting in too much personal judgement. That make him one of most credible writer in unz.

    I think I have been quite respectful by UR comment standards of Mr Roberts, of whom I had never heard when I first read or skimmed his interesting paean to Mao. It took me back to early days when I had been reading Felix Greene and Edgar Snow (though I have a guilty suspicion that “Red Star Over China” mostly sat accusingly on the bedside table) and I made some observation about China not historically bding expansionist and anyway not threatening us whatever it had inflicted on India over borders before leaving. An elderly judge noted the similar starry eyed views being spread around at the time of the Spanish Civil War snd helped to reinforce my natural scepticism and tolerance of uncrrtainty.

    If I have seemed to be rude to Mr Godfree (whom I add to my quite long list of people I admire for coming back enterprisingly from financial disaster: I remember my own bad times and shudder at the thought they could have been as bad as others have suffeted) please note that my princcipal activity wrt UR is to decide, when I have woken earlier than I wish to rise, to find some bad/sloppy/carelessly expressed arguments to criticise – especially pathological certainties, if not ssneer at. I have very few certainties or even strongly held views that I want ti blow fruitlessly into the blogosphere. So….

    I warned Mr Godfree and other readers that I had detected one symptom of unreluability that lifelong experience has taught me should fortify my scepticism and nit picking. He’s quite a salesman – good luck to him – he reminds me of a friend in another Asian country who has similarly staged something of a recovery from a failed business at home – but overblown assertions about politics which I absolutely know to be wrong fortify the irritated sceptic in me – irritated in part because I have to restrain my pleasure at coming across a novel perspective. Having just decided on investigation that L. Fletcher Prouty was at best a Walter Mitty character rather than source of important information I am sensitised to these matters.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT
    While i respect your life long experience, still im awaiting to hear your specific sharing on where Mr Roberts is making untrue starry eyes proclamation of China matter in his various articles & comments that i find very refreshing and unbiased for a westerner(or Down under if he is a Oz).

    Mr Roberts even arouse my interest to rethink about Mao again, as West leaders & their msm echoed by staunch lackey Oz msm has absolutely reveal their presstitute ugliness of blatant fake news over last few years without slightest modesty. If im to read any West msm, its to see what's biggest lies of the day. Independent sites, China & Russia msm are only news source i go to nowsaday.

    Now, pls enlightened all readers with facts where Mr Robert's writing is deemed doubtful & wanting, not some heresy from a senior judge nobody know or your feelings due to some unpleasant encounter.

    You are highly intellectual writing with sophisticated old English, you should have no excuse to know your judge friend or solicitor will advise you its tantamount to defamation less you can produce solid facts to substantiate your "respectful comment" in casting doubts on someone credibility in public forum.

    If he indeed is proven as you commented of wanting credibility & a starry eyed chicom troll, then we should view his writings with more scrutiny & care.
    , @TT

    I made some observation about China not historically bding expansionist and anyway not threatening us whatever it had inflicted on India over borders before leaving.
     
    This gave a very good hint of what you have been reading & indoctrined. Your PM Turnbull & msm are still hysterical running 24/7 yellow perils, sinophobe threats & meddling to control Oz, as though US & UK with other countries are so Lily Pure. US even removed your PM who opposed to join Vietnam war.(unclassified)

    Its open known facts that 1962 Sino-Indi border war, India PM Nehru as a pathological liar & expansionist, had ordered to invade China under US&UK and Soviet blessings, believing he had superior outnumbered force so well prepared & equipped over poor China, but soundly defeated by a small PLA lead by military genius Ling Piao in surprisingly swift counter attack reaching near Delhi. China was so humane to pull back, return all POW captured with dead buried in honor way.

    Unable to swallow his own self inflicted humiliation, Nehru lied to his own people shamelessly that China had back stabbed India. Soon he died for his bad kamma in killing many innocents for his quest of expansion after independent, for all his lies & atrocities that poison India-China relationship till now. Last year Donglan border crisis is another repeated Indian shameless lies stunt, awaiting kind Oz help to reveal.

    Since India gain independent, China South Tibet, Sikhim, 7sisters akar Naga land, 50 princely states, were gobbled up. Bhutan lost its entire sovereignty, without India approval it cant has any foreign diplomatic relationship till today. Nepal, Sri Lanka & Mauritius are still continuously under subversion with military & terrorism thrrats or Weapon of Mass Migration. Kashmir is still under military attacked. Bangladesh been splitted from Pakistan by India invasion backed by US, was too poor & muslimized that India refused to take in.

    Its attempt at Oz was a backlashed by whites attacked. But it got excellent result in US, with Indian Nikki Harley as UN ambassador & Raj Khan as WH spoke person now, and Indian CEO over 30% of US corps. I was told Spore has literally turn to Little Delhi now, under Unequal Treaty forced into Spore throat. Its parliament, judicial, financial, IT, banking…are overwhelming stack with suspicious "Indians" honcho of low quality now, with a Indian DPM of criminal record in leaking state secret.

    Now let some rare good honest Australian whites speak out the Truth of India attacked China in 1962 with facts.
    https://m.timesofindia.com/india/It-wasnt-China-but-Nehru-who-declared-1962-war-Australian-journalist-Neville-Maxwell/amp_articleshow/33094229.cms

    http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2011/08/02/china-s-india-war-how-the-chinese-saw-the-1962-conflict/

    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/maos-return-to-power-passed-through-india/

    And now read all the long history of lies written by shameless Indians & West liars till today. Juz google, its voluminous.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs/story/india-china-war-of-1962-839077-2016-11-21

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/CJB.htm

    Google under Indian Pichai seem to has carefully scrubbed all search results to throw up Indians & US/UK lying propaganda. You need to specific in search term trying repeatedly to bring up anything negative about India nowsaday.
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  125. @Anonymous
    Nice anecdote. I could just as easily come up with an example in the west about a black man on trial and sitting on a jury with 6 other southerners.

    Quite.
    Unfortunately that barbarian tradition is even worse. However….

    My point is about a cultural tradition which defers to authority rather than one which cobdones injustice because of racial prejudice. Gottit?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Your anecdote is still worthless and adds nothing to the conversation. I think you used it because that's all you have.

    Regarding authoritarianism, this should not be reduced to a something simple or universal since there are different circumstances and cultures at play here.

    Having spent time in the west and the east, I feel much freer almost everywhere in Asia. The west being some bastion of freedom is so 90's I can't believe you are trying to pass that off here. You must be an old man.

    Our rights here in the west have eroded so much I find it unbearable. I'm sure there are things in China that can land you in jail when it should not, but so what?

    No country is really free, so you have to pick and choose what is important to you.

    I trust my money more in the west, but that's about it.
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  126. @Godfree Roberts
    This is not a topic that lends itself to anecdotes. China's well-documented experience with rule of law goes back 3000 years and is ongoing.

    Briefly, Between 2012-2016, violent crime fell forty-three percent (road fatalities dropped fifty-six percent) and satisfaction with public security rose from eighty-seven percent to ninety-two percent making China one of the most trusting, law-biding societies on earth.

    When Harvard’s Tony Saich asked the public to prioritize their concerns, they ranked ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ highest and, when he asked which government service they were most satisfied with they again placed ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ first.

    Today, after the most lawless century in Chinese history, death penalties are declining and the Social Credit campaign promises to create a smooth transition to a just, xiaokang society.

    Interesting and good news in its way but I am not sure you get the distinction I point to between the different traditions. I don’t understand the “Legalists” of centuries BC as having a philosophical/jurisprudential base in common with Western rule-of-law-not-of-men lawyers and legal philosophers. You are pretty good at winging it but I don’t expect you to expound that Chinese Legalism esppecially when you pause to consider your rash attribution of rule of law to China back 3000
    years unless you choose to ignore, for example, the first emperor and his son…

    Mind you I deplore the US criminal justice system with its noxious combination of public slander (protected by the First Amendment), threats, overcharging and plea deals. I also deplore the rise of law-and-order-and-victims-free-kicks populism in other Anglophone countries. However….

    The Chinese control of law (including illegal) enforcement and adjudication by the CCP is in another universe. In legal historical terms it goes back to huge populsr approval rates when royal or feudal or any authority’s forces gave the people burning of witches and heretics and hanging drawing and quartering of alleged traitors of a dissident religion to enormous enthusiasm of the crowd. And that’s without considering those incorroptible French models of rectitude in the 1790s who briefly set the pace for successors like the CCP.

    But I admire the old Bar traditions in my country where “the liberty of the subject comes first” meant that a bail appeal conducted by junior counsel was heard before the QC was allowed to seek an injunction over a $25 million property. Now of course the right to bail everywhere is attenuated, and most often – when not because of ideology or malice – for lack of imagination as to what could be done to secure competing interests without incarceration. That doesn’t mean that a system which allows the CCP to snatch, lock up and convict at 99 per cent rates is accepttable on any view of human nature that I would regard as realistic. (No rule of the saints ever, anywhere, past, present or future. Good doctrine and principles can help. China is probably hurt by having a tradition of civilisation which they like to take pride in however much it failed them when modernity emerged elsewhere. Nelson Mandela with no such historical burden had no problem understanding and valuing the Wesyern concept of rule of law**)

    **Don’t you find it depressing that, absent this footnote, some idiotic comment would probably ignore the word “concrpt” in what I have just written?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    If one should propose to all men a choice, bidding them select the best customs from all the customs that there are, each race of men, after examining them all, would select those of his own people; thus all think that their own customs are by far the best. Herodotus, The Histories
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  127. @Anonymous
    So anyone who says something you deem as pro China must be paid by the gov?

    How bout trying to debate ideas and not the person instead of ad hominem attacks when you can't think of something.

    Oh, by the way. It is common knowledge that the west pays for content and news all the time via CNN, Hollywood, and online content. So maybe you are a paid troll too.

    What a lot of words with which to prove you have a tin ear. I was just jeering at a low IQ performsnce.

    Read More
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  128. gT says:
    @Anon
    Thanks for pointing out. Indeed gT has strange attitude towards China, hence Chinese should segregate such sino hater from good Russians, just as Russia should for diehard russophobia West Europeans. There can be no negotiation between sheeps & wolves how to share food.

    Oh dear, so now I’m Russian again. But this vatnik business actually doesn’t sound too bad

    “vatnik

    A Russian jingoist and a supporter of Putin’s politics. Exhibits stereotypical traits of a Russian jingoist: alcoholism, slovenliness, poverty and unconditional support of any decision of the Russian government.

    – Crimea is ours!
    – You are such a vatnik! ”

    “The word “vatnik” can be used by Russians both in negative manner, to describe those of Russians who show forms of patriotism that are too jingoistic or foolish,[28] and sometimes in positive manner – to express speaker’s support for some aspects of Russian culture/values/politics.”

    It really sounds like I’m in the majority there in Russia, especially with regards to the alcohol and Putin, traditional values and conservatism, self-sufficiency. Yes, screw globalization / integration, man must make his own vodka, Chinaman will put industrial solvents into the vodka to give it kick and sell it to you at a cheaper price instead of taking the time and effort to ferment and distill it properly.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    i thought you shameful "redneck" of country but it seems you even dumber, sack of shit that speak only one language. Иди́ к чёрту! you robber hurt us more....shameful hiding words blame others...anglo.

    -vavalika
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  129. renfro says:
    @Joe Wong
    You are jealous, resentful and fear of Chinese achievements, in addition you are worrying China’s rise will bring chicken coming home to roost for you guys after all the sickening work your beastly forebears have done to the world not just to the Chinese.

    You should blame your forebears, not the others who have taken the short end of your forebears’ barbarism, or you can blame the ones who brought you to this world too late for you to miss the boat of high time.

    You can have your fucking government,
     
    You too, only you, the White is bombing, killing and waterboarding around the world recklessly and ruthlessly on the fake news since 1642 uninvited, unwanted, and white washing and glossing over their crimes like the ‘god-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘inquisitors’.

    Falun Gong, ISIS, Al-Qaida, slave owner Dalai Lama, cocaine barons and death squads in Latin America, … are all American and Brits creations. Guantanamo Bay proves torture is American forte and they are still the same as their wicked inquisition forebears.

    The West (Europeans and their offshoots like the American, Aussie, etc.) is where is now, because of those hundreds of millions of people all over the world who were robbed and murdered, those who become victims of their very madness of colonialism and orientalism, of the crusades and the slave and Opium trades. Cathedrals and palaces, museums and theatres, train stations – all had been constructed on horrid foundations of bones and blood, and amalgamated by tears.

    The West squandered all the wealth they obtained thru stealing, looting and murdering hundreds of millions of people all over the world in the scrabbling of a dog-eat-dog play rough over the monopoly to plunder the rest of the world through two World Wars, one on the edge of Armageddon, and on the verge of another Armageddon. It proves the West is incapable of bringing peace and prosperity to the mankind because of their flawed culture, civilization and religion. The chaos and suffering of the world in the last few hundreds of years under the dominance the West proves they are a failure.

    Some of that is true…but China is not lily white, you helped communist N Korea invade S Korea and you have had your share of civil wars.

    However we can call it even and consider you civilized when you quit having dog killing festivals and eating them. That would get you killed in this country by Americans like me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT

    you helped communist N Korea invade S Korea and you have had your share of civil wars.
     
    You should go Globalresearch.ca to read up Korea War to know what's your msm are lying to you, its your evil empire US invading war. China is the savior of North Koreans that US wanted to exterminate, even now after 50yrs war end in stalemate.

    Who is the real evil demon? NK or US?
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-versus-the-united-states-who-are-the-demons/28342

    Achievement of NK in healthcare that WHO Secretary said its an envy murkans can dream about, free quality education…
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-their-health-system-sucks-do-they-have-schools-and-hospitals-in-america-weve-got-medicare/5604293

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-social-and-economic-achievements-of-north-korea/5594234

    Go take a look of real North Korea by google some images, you will be surprise how US msm propaganda has been brainwashing us. Its a clean neat nice country with impressive growing GDP economic even under crushing west sanction for last 50yrs. They simply refused to die, with China humane help.

    However we can call it even and consider you civilized when you quit having dog killing festivals and eating them. That would get you killed in this country by Americans like me.
     
    No, not even the slightest chance to equate US tyranny civilization built on atrocities & wars(how many yrs US isn't on war?) with opiods & LBGT to China 5,000 yrs of Confucianism civilization.

    Dog eating has been thousands year of history in Chinese traditional medical believing that its a great tonic for winter. Korean has long street of dog eating shops with dog carcasses stripped of skin hanging when i visited, but i refused to try. They simply loved it. So are Thailand, Taiwan, and some Asian countries. But only China is to be singled out, bcos Uncle Scam said so.

    And my country, yours likely too, are systematically slaughtering stray & expensive unwanted pet dogs in humanity hypocrite reason instead of food reason, when no one is asking our gov to feed them. Aren't we more blamable than Chinese? And our gov punished animal abuser more seriously than human rights abuser, don't we?

    Also USM UK Nato endless wars, creating proxy ISIS terrorists to massacre Syrians & Iraqis in millions, what a joke we are here talking animal rights to Chinese who has not wage a single war in last many decades.

    And what's different between massive slaughtering of pigs(known to be higher intelligent than dog), cattles & fishes for food? Isn't Dolphins & some whales are highest intelligent among animals, that Japanese & Swedish(?) are slaughtering in mass for ritual fun annually, not food.

    Dogs & monkeys, orangutans, chimpanzees, etc. are also routinely subjected to more cruel torturing clinical tests by West & developed countries. A suffering many fold well surpassing what Chinese done to their medical food with one chop(as National Geography said humane killing in least pain).

    So are we all should be killed by Chinese for more cruelty to animals, some more adorable & intelligent than dogs? That's our hypocrite double standard of rights & civilization on anyone refuse to subjugate by US..

    arsonist calling others lighting candle for light as criminal……hehehehe
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  130. @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting and good news in its way but I am not sure you get the distinction I point to between the different traditions. I don't understand the "Legalists" of centuries BC as having a philosophical/jurisprudential base in common with Western rule-of-law-not-of-men lawyers and legal philosophers. You are pretty good at winging it but I don't expect you to expound that Chinese Legalism esppecially when you pause to consider your rash attribution of rule of law to China back 3000
    years unless you choose to ignore, for example, the first emperor and his son...

    Mind you I deplore the US criminal justice system with its noxious combination of public slander (protected by the First Amendment), threats, overcharging and plea deals. I also deplore the rise of law-and-order-and-victims-free-kicks populism in other Anglophone countries. However....

    The Chinese control of law (including illegal) enforcement and adjudication by the CCP is in another universe. In legal historical terms it goes back to huge populsr approval rates when royal or feudal or any authority's forces gave the people burning of witches and heretics and hanging drawing and quartering of alleged traitors of a dissident religion to enormous enthusiasm of the crowd. And that's without considering those incorroptible French models of rectitude in the 1790s who briefly set the pace for successors like the CCP.

    But I admire the old Bar traditions in my country where "the liberty of the subject comes first" meant that a bail appeal conducted by junior counsel was heard before the QC was allowed to seek an injunction over a $25 million property. Now of course the right to bail everywhere is attenuated, and most often - when not because of ideology or malice - for lack of imagination as to what could be done to secure competing interests without incarceration. That doesn't mean that a system which allows the CCP to snatch, lock up and convict at 99 per cent rates is accepttable on any view of human nature that I would regard as realistic. (No rule of the saints ever, anywhere, past, present or future. Good doctrine and principles can help. China is probably hurt by having a tradition of civilisation which they like to take pride in however much it failed them when modernity emerged elsewhere. Nelson Mandela with no such historical burden had no problem understanding and valuing the Wesyern concept of rule of law**)

    **Don't you find it depressing that, absent this footnote, some idiotic comment would probably ignore the word "concrpt" in what I have just written?

    If one should propose to all men a choice, bidding them select the best customs from all the customs that there are, each race of men, after examining them all, would select those of his own people; thus all think that their own customs are by far the best. Herodotus, The Histories

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I had splendid confirmation of the truth of that observation (admittedly a truth with many exceptions) when leading an inquiry into juries which we used as reason to circumnavigate the world asking questions and listening. Actually I put down the high prevalence of approval of the lical system to avoidance of cognitive dissonance - which I suspecct Herodotus would have had noo trouble with.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    How would the equivalent to this excellent piece read in a Chinese opinion mag?

    http://takimag.com/article/trial_by_fury_theodore_dalrymple/page_2#axzz5C3RBoJbt

    It by a Jewish psychiatrist with much experience of criminals and prisons.
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  131. @Godfree Roberts
    If one should propose to all men a choice, bidding them select the best customs from all the customs that there are, each race of men, after examining them all, would select those of his own people; thus all think that their own customs are by far the best. Herodotus, The Histories

    I had splendid confirmation of the truth of that observation (admittedly a truth with many exceptions) when leading an inquiry into juries which we used as reason to circumnavigate the world asking questions and listening. Actually I put down the high prevalence of approval of the lical system to avoidance of cognitive dissonance – which I suspecct Herodotus would have had noo trouble with.

    Read More
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  132. Anon[861] • Disclaimer says:
    @gT
    Oh dear, so now I'm Russian again. But this vatnik business actually doesn't sound too bad

    "vatnik

    A Russian jingoist and a supporter of Putin's politics. Exhibits stereotypical traits of a Russian jingoist: alcoholism, slovenliness, poverty and unconditional support of any decision of the Russian government.

    – Crimea is ours!
    – You are such a vatnik! "

    "The word "vatnik" can be used by Russians both in negative manner, to describe those of Russians who show forms of patriotism that are too jingoistic or foolish,[28] and sometimes in positive manner – to express speaker's support for some aspects of Russian culture/values/politics."

    It really sounds like I'm in the majority there in Russia, especially with regards to the alcohol and Putin, traditional values and conservatism, self-sufficiency. Yes, screw globalization / integration, man must make his own vodka, Chinaman will put industrial solvents into the vodka to give it kick and sell it to you at a cheaper price instead of taking the time and effort to ferment and distill it properly.

    i thought you shameful “redneck” of country but it seems you even dumber, sack of shit that speak only one language. Иди́ к чёрту! you robber hurt us more….shameful hiding words blame others…anglo.

    -vavalika

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    • Replies: @gT
    Oh dear, so now I’m Redneck Anglo again ...
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  133. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Quite.
    Unfortunately that barbarian tradition is even worse. However....

    My point is about a cultural tradition which defers to authority rather than one which cobdones injustice because of racial prejudice. Gottit?

    Your anecdote is still worthless and adds nothing to the conversation. I think you used it because that’s all you have.

    Regarding authoritarianism, this should not be reduced to a something simple or universal since there are different circumstances and cultures at play here.

    Having spent time in the west and the east, I feel much freer almost everywhere in Asia. The west being some bastion of freedom is so 90′s I can’t believe you are trying to pass that off here. You must be an old man.

    Our rights here in the west have eroded so much I find it unbearable. I’m sure there are things in China that can land you in jail when it should not, but so what?

    No country is really free, so you have to pick and choose what is important to you.

    I trust my money more in the west, but that’s about it.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    What adds nothing to the conversation is amateurish waffling which pays no attention to the words and concepts of educated people.

    One example will do if you are capable of shame. I said nothing about "authoritarianism" but referred to the culture of deferring to elders and thos with formal authority - of which my anecdote was merely a bit of illustrative colour to help those who respond to that kind of presentation (most people any teacher of public speaking would tell you).
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  134. @Anonymous
    Your anecdote is still worthless and adds nothing to the conversation. I think you used it because that's all you have.

    Regarding authoritarianism, this should not be reduced to a something simple or universal since there are different circumstances and cultures at play here.

    Having spent time in the west and the east, I feel much freer almost everywhere in Asia. The west being some bastion of freedom is so 90's I can't believe you are trying to pass that off here. You must be an old man.

    Our rights here in the west have eroded so much I find it unbearable. I'm sure there are things in China that can land you in jail when it should not, but so what?

    No country is really free, so you have to pick and choose what is important to you.

    I trust my money more in the west, but that's about it.

    What adds nothing to the conversation is amateurish waffling which pays no attention to the words and concepts of educated people.

    One example will do if you are capable of shame. I said nothing about “authoritarianism” but referred to the culture of deferring to elders and thos with formal authority – of which my anecdote was merely a bit of illustrative colour to help those who respond to that kind of presentation (most people any teacher of public speaking would tell you).

    Read More
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  135. @Godfree Roberts
    If one should propose to all men a choice, bidding them select the best customs from all the customs that there are, each race of men, after examining them all, would select those of his own people; thus all think that their own customs are by far the best. Herodotus, The Histories

    How would the equivalent to this excellent piece read in a Chinese opinion mag?

    http://takimag.com/article/trial_by_fury_theodore_dalrymple/page_2#axzz5C3RBoJbt

    It by a Jewish psychiatrist with much experience of criminals and prisons.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    Substantively similar, but not as boastful.
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  136. TT says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I think I have been quite respectful by UR comment standards of Mr Roberts, of whom I had never heard when I first read or skimmed his interesting paean to Mao. It took me back to early days when I had been reading Felix Greene and Edgar Snow (though I have a guilty suspicion that "Red Star Over China" mostly sat accusingly on the bedside table) and I made some observation about China not historically bding expansionist and anyway not threatening us whatever it had inflicted on India over borders before leaving. An elderly judge noted the similar starry eyed views being spread around at the time of the Spanish Civil War snd helped to reinforce my natural scepticism and tolerance of uncrrtainty.

    If I have seemed to be rude to Mr Godfree (whom I add to my quite long list of people I admire for coming back enterprisingly from financial disaster: I remember my own bad times and shudder at the thought they could have been as bad as others have suffeted) please note that my princcipal activity wrt UR is to decide, when I have woken earlier than I wish to rise, to find some bad/sloppy/carelessly expressed arguments to criticise - especially pathological certainties, if not ssneer at. I have very few certainties or even strongly held views that I want ti blow fruitlessly into the blogosphere. So....

    I warned Mr Godfree and other readers that I had detected one symptom of unreluability that lifelong experience has taught me should fortify my scepticism and nit picking. He's quite a salesman - good luck to him - he reminds me of a friend in another Asian country who has similarly staged something of a recovery from a failed business at home - but overblown assertions about politics which I absolutely know to be wrong fortify the irritated sceptic in me - irritated in part because I have to restrain my pleasure at coming across a novel perspective. Having just decided on investigation that L. Fletcher Prouty was at best a Walter Mitty character rather than source of important information I am sensitised to these matters.

    While i respect your life long experience, still im awaiting to hear your specific sharing on where Mr Roberts is making untrue starry eyes proclamation of China matter in his various articles & comments that i find very refreshing and unbiased for a westerner(or Down under if he is a Oz).

    Mr Roberts even arouse my interest to rethink about Mao again, as West leaders & their msm echoed by staunch lackey Oz msm has absolutely reveal their presstitute ugliness of blatant fake news over last few years without slightest modesty. If im to read any West msm, its to see what’s biggest lies of the day. Independent sites, China & Russia msm are only news source i go to nowsaday.

    Now, pls enlightened all readers with facts where Mr Robert’s writing is deemed doubtful & wanting, not some heresy from a senior judge nobody know or your feelings due to some unpleasant encounter.

    You are highly intellectual writing with sophisticated old English, you should have no excuse to know your judge friend or solicitor will advise you its tantamount to defamation less you can produce solid facts to substantiate your “respectful comment” in casting doubts on someone credibility in public forum.

    If he indeed is proven as you commented of wanting credibility & a starry eyed chicom troll, then we should view his writings with more scrutiny & care.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Your premises are wrong so I shall not attempt to make a case for what *you* say my case is wrt GR's interesting writings.

    It is a little disconcerting that you can't see the logic of my having at least tentative reservations about the expert on Eurasian dogs who tosses in "by the way all cats in Australia are black".

    But then you put yourself in another universe to which I fear there is not even a worm hole connection with mine when you say that the only msm news sources you go to are Russian and Chinese while you reject anything from, presumably, everything from NYT, WSJ, FT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, The Economist, South China Morning Post etc to BBC, Deutsche Welle etc. How would you assess anything I say? Agreement with RT radio or the Global Times?

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  137. TT says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I think I have been quite respectful by UR comment standards of Mr Roberts, of whom I had never heard when I first read or skimmed his interesting paean to Mao. It took me back to early days when I had been reading Felix Greene and Edgar Snow (though I have a guilty suspicion that "Red Star Over China" mostly sat accusingly on the bedside table) and I made some observation about China not historically bding expansionist and anyway not threatening us whatever it had inflicted on India over borders before leaving. An elderly judge noted the similar starry eyed views being spread around at the time of the Spanish Civil War snd helped to reinforce my natural scepticism and tolerance of uncrrtainty.

    If I have seemed to be rude to Mr Godfree (whom I add to my quite long list of people I admire for coming back enterprisingly from financial disaster: I remember my own bad times and shudder at the thought they could have been as bad as others have suffeted) please note that my princcipal activity wrt UR is to decide, when I have woken earlier than I wish to rise, to find some bad/sloppy/carelessly expressed arguments to criticise - especially pathological certainties, if not ssneer at. I have very few certainties or even strongly held views that I want ti blow fruitlessly into the blogosphere. So....

    I warned Mr Godfree and other readers that I had detected one symptom of unreluability that lifelong experience has taught me should fortify my scepticism and nit picking. He's quite a salesman - good luck to him - he reminds me of a friend in another Asian country who has similarly staged something of a recovery from a failed business at home - but overblown assertions about politics which I absolutely know to be wrong fortify the irritated sceptic in me - irritated in part because I have to restrain my pleasure at coming across a novel perspective. Having just decided on investigation that L. Fletcher Prouty was at best a Walter Mitty character rather than source of important information I am sensitised to these matters.

    I made some observation about China not historically bding expansionist and anyway not threatening us whatever it had inflicted on India over borders before leaving.

    This gave a very good hint of what you have been reading & indoctrined. Your PM Turnbull & msm are still hysterical running 24/7 yellow perils, sinophobe threats & meddling to control Oz, as though US & UK with other countries are so Lily Pure. US even removed your PM who opposed to join Vietnam war.(unclassified)

    Its open known facts that 1962 Sino-Indi border war, India PM Nehru as a pathological liar & expansionist, had ordered to invade China under US&UK and Soviet blessings, believing he had superior outnumbered force so well prepared & equipped over poor China, but soundly defeated by a small PLA lead by military genius Ling Piao in surprisingly swift counter attack reaching near Delhi. China was so humane to pull back, return all POW captured with dead buried in honor way.

    Unable to swallow his own self inflicted humiliation, Nehru lied to his own people shamelessly that China had back stabbed India. Soon he died for his bad kamma in killing many innocents for his quest of expansion after independent, for all his lies & atrocities that poison India-China relationship till now. Last year Donglan border crisis is another repeated Indian shameless lies stunt, awaiting kind Oz help to reveal.

    Since India gain independent, China South Tibet, Sikhim, 7sisters akar Naga land, 50 princely states, were gobbled up. Bhutan lost its entire sovereignty, without India approval it cant has any foreign diplomatic relationship till today. Nepal, Sri Lanka & Mauritius are still continuously under subversion with military & terrorism thrrats or Weapon of Mass Migration. Kashmir is still under military attacked. Bangladesh been splitted from Pakistan by India invasion backed by US, was too poor & muslimized that India refused to take in.

    Its attempt at Oz was a backlashed by whites attacked. But it got excellent result in US, with Indian Nikki Harley as UN ambassador & Raj Khan as WH spoke person now, and Indian CEO over 30% of US corps. I was told Spore has literally turn to Little Delhi now, under Unequal Treaty forced into Spore throat. Its parliament, judicial, financial, IT, banking…are overwhelming stack with suspicious “Indians” honcho of low quality now, with a Indian DPM of criminal record in leaking state secret.

    Now let some rare good honest Australian whites speak out the Truth of India attacked China in 1962 with facts.

    https://m.timesofindia.com/india/It-wasnt-China-but-Nehru-who-declared-1962-war-Australian-journalist-Neville-Maxwell/amp_articleshow/33094229.cms

    http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2011/08/02/china-s-india-war-how-the-chinese-saw-the-1962-conflict/

    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/maos-return-to-power-passed-through-india/

    And now read all the long history of lies written by shameless Indians & West liars till today. Juz google, its voluminous.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs/story/india-china-war-of-1962-839077-2016-11-21

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/CJB.htm

    Google under Indian Pichai seem to has carefully scrubbed all search results to throw up Indians & US/UK lying propaganda. You need to specific in search term trying repeatedly to bring up anything negative about India nowsaday.

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  138. TT says:
    @renfro
    Some of that is true...but China is not lily white, you helped communist N Korea invade S Korea and you have had your share of civil wars.

    However we can call it even and consider you civilized when you quit having dog killing festivals and eating them. That would get you killed in this country by Americans like me.

    you helped communist N Korea invade S Korea and you have had your share of civil wars.

    You should go Globalresearch.ca to read up Korea War to know what’s your msm are lying to you, its your evil empire US invading war. China is the savior of North Koreans that US wanted to exterminate, even now after 50yrs war end in stalemate.

    Who is the real evil demon? NK or US?

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-versus-the-united-states-who-are-the-demons/28342

    Achievement of NK in healthcare that WHO Secretary said its an envy murkans can dream about, free quality education…

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-their-health-system-sucks-do-they-have-schools-and-hospitals-in-america-weve-got-medicare/5604293

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-social-and-economic-achievements-of-north-korea/5594234

    Go take a look of real North Korea by google some images, you will be surprise how US msm propaganda has been brainwashing us. Its a clean neat nice country with impressive growing GDP economic even under crushing west sanction for last 50yrs. They simply refused to die, with China humane help.

    However we can call it even and consider you civilized when you quit having dog killing festivals and eating them. That would get you killed in this country by Americans like me.

    No, not even the slightest chance to equate US tyranny civilization built on atrocities & wars(how many yrs US isn’t on war?) with opiods & LBGT to China 5,000 yrs of Confucianism civilization.

    Dog eating has been thousands year of history in Chinese traditional medical believing that its a great tonic for winter. Korean has long street of dog eating shops with dog carcasses stripped of skin hanging when i visited, but i refused to try. They simply loved it. So are Thailand, Taiwan, and some Asian countries. But only China is to be singled out, bcos Uncle Scam said so.

    And my country, yours likely too, are systematically slaughtering stray & expensive unwanted pet dogs in humanity hypocrite reason instead of food reason, when no one is asking our gov to feed them. Aren’t we more blamable than Chinese? And our gov punished animal abuser more seriously than human rights abuser, don’t we?

    Also USM UK Nato endless wars, creating proxy ISIS terrorists to massacre Syrians & Iraqis in millions, what a joke we are here talking animal rights to Chinese who has not wage a single war in last many decades.

    And what’s different between massive slaughtering of pigs(known to be higher intelligent than dog), cattles & fishes for food? Isn’t Dolphins & some whales are highest intelligent among animals, that Japanese & Swedish(?) are slaughtering in mass for ritual fun annually, not food.

    Dogs & monkeys, orangutans, chimpanzees, etc. are also routinely subjected to more cruel torturing clinical tests by West & developed countries. A suffering many fold well surpassing what Chinese done to their medical food with one chop(as National Geography said humane killing in least pain).

    So are we all should be killed by Chinese for more cruelty to animals, some more adorable & intelligent than dogs? That’s our hypocrite double standard of rights & civilization on anyone refuse to subjugate by US..

    arsonist calling others lighting candle for light as criminal……hehehehe

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    • Agree: GammaRay
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I'm perfectly happy for you to eat dogs and even spend an inordinate proportion of your word count defending it but you can hardly expect people to accept your pretence of wanting civilised discourse when you go into bat head over heels for North Korea whose leader has had his uncle and half brother murdered, refuses to allow emigration, and has so distorted the use of and access to resources that his underfed people are on average several centimetres shorter than those in South Korea.
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  139. @Wizard of Oz
    How would the equivalent to this excellent piece read in a Chinese opinion mag?

    http://takimag.com/article/trial_by_fury_theodore_dalrymple/page_2#axzz5C3RBoJbt

    It by a Jewish psychiatrist with much experience of criminals and prisons.

    Substantively similar, but not as boastful.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    "Boastful". Please explain. Have you read his paragraph beginning "We are never more than a veneer away from lynching"?
    , @Wizard of Oz
    I have just read two articles touching on rule of law ideals aspirations and actualities that I think you would find rewarding. Both are in the April 5 - 18 issue of the NYRB Volume LXV, Number 6.

    One is by NY Federal District Judge Jed Rakoff and paints a sad picture of the American judiciary's systematic failure to hold the Executive (especially the military and "national security" related) to account. That of course is a big blemish on America's reputation as a Rule of Law country though it doesn't affect the nature or validity of objections made against the legal systems of countries which don't even aspire to be Rule of Law countries.

    The other article is even more relevant to considering why one might not wish to be at the mercy of Communist police, prosecutors and judges in China. It is "God is a Russian" by Timothy Snyder, Levin Professor of History at Yale. He writes of the extraordinary philosopher Ivan Ilyin [yes, by partly fortunate coincidence for him, a nom de guerre of Lenin]. Ilyin started out as one of the young educated Russians who wanted above all the rule of law in the Czar's empire, though puzzled about how you could sell the idea to the vast peasantry.

    He was inspired by German philosopers, including Kant and Hegel, though not necessarily consistently. But by the time he had been helped out of trouble by Lenin (though, unlike Lenin he believed in God in an idiosyncratic way) and escaped the Soviet Union to form part of the cheer squad for White fascist revanchism against the Bolsheviks he became an enthusiast for Mussolini.

    Should we be surprised that Putin and many others including the ex KGB man heading the Russian Orthodox Church have taken to quoting him favourably as supporting Putin's type of supposedly nationalistic autocracy.
    In 1925 he wrote "fascism is a redemptive excess of patriotic arbitrariness" in praise of forms of government which were clearly not conventionally Christian or in favour of rule of law. No doubt Mr Xi would approve the sentiment if it could be sobered up a bit for the technocrats. There are too many good quotes for me to load this up with now, but do look out for the word "virtue" about three quarters of the way through and consider what humbug a traditional Chinese mandarin might think it coming from a barbarian - and opportunistic - Slav, even though they also disdain the individualistic Western idea of Rule of Law.
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  140. @TT
    While i respect your life long experience, still im awaiting to hear your specific sharing on where Mr Roberts is making untrue starry eyes proclamation of China matter in his various articles & comments that i find very refreshing and unbiased for a westerner(or Down under if he is a Oz).

    Mr Roberts even arouse my interest to rethink about Mao again, as West leaders & their msm echoed by staunch lackey Oz msm has absolutely reveal their presstitute ugliness of blatant fake news over last few years without slightest modesty. If im to read any West msm, its to see what's biggest lies of the day. Independent sites, China & Russia msm are only news source i go to nowsaday.

    Now, pls enlightened all readers with facts where Mr Robert's writing is deemed doubtful & wanting, not some heresy from a senior judge nobody know or your feelings due to some unpleasant encounter.

    You are highly intellectual writing with sophisticated old English, you should have no excuse to know your judge friend or solicitor will advise you its tantamount to defamation less you can produce solid facts to substantiate your "respectful comment" in casting doubts on someone credibility in public forum.

    If he indeed is proven as you commented of wanting credibility & a starry eyed chicom troll, then we should view his writings with more scrutiny & care.

    Your premises are wrong so I shall not attempt to make a case for what *you* say my case is wrt GR’s interesting writings.

    It is a little disconcerting that you can’t see the logic of my having at least tentative reservations about the expert on Eurasian dogs who tosses in “by the way all cats in Australia are black”.

    But then you put yourself in another universe to which I fear there is not even a worm hole connection with mine when you say that the only msm news sources you go to are Russian and Chinese while you reject anything from, presumably, everything from NYT, WSJ, FT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, The Economist, South China Morning Post etc to BBC, Deutsche Welle etc. How would you assess anything I say? Agreement with RT radio or the Global Times?

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    • Replies: @TT
    Sincerely I truly can't figure out what you tried to say so far, besides proclaiming you find GR credibility wanting due to his Oz background & his discussion with you over Oz politics, coupled with some of your personal unpleasant experience here & there....with puzzling abstract "hinting".

    Since there is nothing you can factually pointed out, im concluding based on Mr Robert factual writings as a more credible source of information than your very confusing replies going round the bush. Case closed. Thanks.

    you say that the only msm news sources you go to are Russian and Chinese while you reject anything from, presumably, everything from NYT, WSJ, FT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, The Economist, South China Morning Post etc to BBC, Deutsche Welle etc. How would you assess anything I say? Agreement with RT radio or the Global Times?

    Independent sites, China & Russia msm are only news source i go to nowsaday.
     

     
    I hope you could find the word "independent sites" you truncated that i access, like Globalresearch, PCR, ICH, Consortium news, MoonofAlabama, Veterans, Unz… and also RT & Global Times, Xinhuanet,…with that i could compare rich info that West msm are faking or not reporting, like US Nato atrocities in Syria war with collaboration of moderate terrorists & Noble Peace Prize nominated white helmets terrorists.

    Indeed those Western presstitute msm you listed out, which were once my daily news sources, have zero credibility filled with fake news, a pure obscene low grade propaganda tool with no slightest modesty to hide, from Iraq has WMD to Russia did it.

    Since we are world apart in our news source & goal here, l shall stop now. Thks for kindly responding.
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  141. @TT

    you helped communist N Korea invade S Korea and you have had your share of civil wars.
     
    You should go Globalresearch.ca to read up Korea War to know what's your msm are lying to you, its your evil empire US invading war. China is the savior of North Koreans that US wanted to exterminate, even now after 50yrs war end in stalemate.

    Who is the real evil demon? NK or US?
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-versus-the-united-states-who-are-the-demons/28342

    Achievement of NK in healthcare that WHO Secretary said its an envy murkans can dream about, free quality education…
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-their-health-system-sucks-do-they-have-schools-and-hospitals-in-america-weve-got-medicare/5604293

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-social-and-economic-achievements-of-north-korea/5594234

    Go take a look of real North Korea by google some images, you will be surprise how US msm propaganda has been brainwashing us. Its a clean neat nice country with impressive growing GDP economic even under crushing west sanction for last 50yrs. They simply refused to die, with China humane help.

    However we can call it even and consider you civilized when you quit having dog killing festivals and eating them. That would get you killed in this country by Americans like me.
     
    No, not even the slightest chance to equate US tyranny civilization built on atrocities & wars(how many yrs US isn't on war?) with opiods & LBGT to China 5,000 yrs of Confucianism civilization.

    Dog eating has been thousands year of history in Chinese traditional medical believing that its a great tonic for winter. Korean has long street of dog eating shops with dog carcasses stripped of skin hanging when i visited, but i refused to try. They simply loved it. So are Thailand, Taiwan, and some Asian countries. But only China is to be singled out, bcos Uncle Scam said so.

    And my country, yours likely too, are systematically slaughtering stray & expensive unwanted pet dogs in humanity hypocrite reason instead of food reason, when no one is asking our gov to feed them. Aren't we more blamable than Chinese? And our gov punished animal abuser more seriously than human rights abuser, don't we?

    Also USM UK Nato endless wars, creating proxy ISIS terrorists to massacre Syrians & Iraqis in millions, what a joke we are here talking animal rights to Chinese who has not wage a single war in last many decades.

    And what's different between massive slaughtering of pigs(known to be higher intelligent than dog), cattles & fishes for food? Isn't Dolphins & some whales are highest intelligent among animals, that Japanese & Swedish(?) are slaughtering in mass for ritual fun annually, not food.

    Dogs & monkeys, orangutans, chimpanzees, etc. are also routinely subjected to more cruel torturing clinical tests by West & developed countries. A suffering many fold well surpassing what Chinese done to their medical food with one chop(as National Geography said humane killing in least pain).

    So are we all should be killed by Chinese for more cruelty to animals, some more adorable & intelligent than dogs? That's our hypocrite double standard of rights & civilization on anyone refuse to subjugate by US..

    arsonist calling others lighting candle for light as criminal……hehehehe

    I’m perfectly happy for you to eat dogs and even spend an inordinate proportion of your word count defending it but you can hardly expect people to accept your pretence of wanting civilised discourse when you go into bat head over heels for North Korea whose leader has had his uncle and half brother murdered, refuses to allow emigration, and has so distorted the use of and access to resources that his underfed people are on average several centimetres shorter than those in South Korea.

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    • Replies: @TT
    As i clearly mentioned i never will eat dog, even my hospitable Korean colleagues invited, neither do i pretend to be morally superior to China people or Koreans.

    They are morally better than those who do cruel game hunting for fun, certainly wolves & fox(Oz exterminate with poison baits) are more intelligent than dogs. And some Oz like ramping down Kangaroos for fun, also slaughtering them for dog food.

    Your persistent regurgitation of West msm propaganda sewage without bother to even read what others tried to provide a reliable alternative independent info on NK has clearly reflect on your credibility.

    A country under such unprecedented destruction with bombs more than whole ww2 add up dropped in a tiny land, flattening every civilian cities with anything that moved, under 50yrs of crushing embargo, could rebuild with such stella performance nation that even WHO Secretary after visited, exclaimed "a healthcare that is of US envy".

    We are world apart in our desire for truth, so we should stop here.

    , @Vidi

    North Korea whose leader has had his uncle and half brother murdered
     
    What evidence have you that Kim Jong Un had his uncle and half brother killed? As opposed to them being killed by the CIA, an American organization with a very long record of assassinations?

    Last year, the NK Ministry of State Security accused the CIA of trying to kill the leader (Kim) :

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/05/cia-long-history-kill-leaders-around-the-world-north-korea

    Of course, the Guardian is no longer that reliable, and the North Korean government may also have reasons to be flexible with the truth. But I am not dismissing the accusation out of hand, because the CIA has such a long, unsavory history.
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  142. @Godfree Roberts
    Substantively similar, but not as boastful.

    “Boastful”. Please explain. Have you read his paragraph beginning “We are never more than a veneer away from lynching”?

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  143. TT says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Your premises are wrong so I shall not attempt to make a case for what *you* say my case is wrt GR's interesting writings.

    It is a little disconcerting that you can't see the logic of my having at least tentative reservations about the expert on Eurasian dogs who tosses in "by the way all cats in Australia are black".

    But then you put yourself in another universe to which I fear there is not even a worm hole connection with mine when you say that the only msm news sources you go to are Russian and Chinese while you reject anything from, presumably, everything from NYT, WSJ, FT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, The Economist, South China Morning Post etc to BBC, Deutsche Welle etc. How would you assess anything I say? Agreement with RT radio or the Global Times?

    Sincerely I truly can’t figure out what you tried to say so far, besides proclaiming you find GR credibility wanting due to his Oz background & his discussion with you over Oz politics, coupled with some of your personal unpleasant experience here & there….with puzzling abstract “hinting”.

    Since there is nothing you can factually pointed out, im concluding based on Mr Robert factual writings as a more credible source of information than your very confusing replies going round the bush. Case closed. Thanks.

    you say that the only msm news sources you go to are Russian and Chinese while you reject anything from, presumably, everything from NYT, WSJ, FT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, The Economist, South China Morning Post etc to BBC, Deutsche Welle etc. How would you assess anything I say? Agreement with RT radio or the Global Times?

    Independent sites, China & Russia msm are only news source i go to nowsaday.

    I hope you could find the word “independent sites” you truncated that i access, like Globalresearch, PCR, ICH, Consortium news, MoonofAlabama, Veterans, Unz… and also RT & Global Times, Xinhuanet,…with that i could compare rich info that West msm are faking or not reporting, like US Nato atrocities in Syria war with collaboration of moderate terrorists & Noble Peace Prize nominated white helmets terrorists.

    Indeed those Western presstitute msm you listed out, which were once my daily news sources, have zero credibility filled with fake news, a pure obscene low grade propaganda tool with no slightest modesty to hide, from Iraq has WMD to Russia did it.

    Since we are world apart in our news source & goal here, l shall stop now. Thks for kindly responding.

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  144. TT says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I'm perfectly happy for you to eat dogs and even spend an inordinate proportion of your word count defending it but you can hardly expect people to accept your pretence of wanting civilised discourse when you go into bat head over heels for North Korea whose leader has had his uncle and half brother murdered, refuses to allow emigration, and has so distorted the use of and access to resources that his underfed people are on average several centimetres shorter than those in South Korea.

    As i clearly mentioned i never will eat dog, even my hospitable Korean colleagues invited, neither do i pretend to be morally superior to China people or Koreans.

    They are morally better than those who do cruel game hunting for fun, certainly wolves & fox(Oz exterminate with poison baits) are more intelligent than dogs. And some Oz like ramping down Kangaroos for fun, also slaughtering them for dog food.

    Your persistent regurgitation of West msm propaganda sewage without bother to even read what others tried to provide a reliable alternative independent info on NK has clearly reflect on your credibility.

    A country under such unprecedented destruction with bombs more than whole ww2 add up dropped in a tiny land, flattening every civilian cities with anything that moved, under 50yrs of crushing embargo, could rebuild with such stella performance nation that even WHO Secretary after visited, exclaimed “a healthcare that is of US envy”.

    We are world apart in our desire for truth, so we should stop here.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Whether you eat or don't eat dogs is and was of no interest to me which is why I did not acknowledge the trivial detail that you didn't yourself do what caused you to write so many words.

    On important matters which you have evaded... Do you deny that Kim Jong-un is an autocrat dependent above all on military support? Do you deny that he had his uncle murdered (and one of his popular projects obliterated)? Do you deny that his half brother was murdered in Malaysia by North Korean agents? Fo you deny the figures showing North Korean malnutition which could have been relieved by expenditure diverted from armaments including the nuclear program as well as luxuries available to officials and senior military officers? Do you deny the abduction of Japanese nationals and the denial of their right to return or indeed of their existence over several decades dedpite North Korea not being at war with Japan? And, as to sanctions, what has that mattered while China and Russia have been their close neighbours and defenders/supporters?

    , @Wizard of Oz
    Oh yes: And why don't they let their citizens emigrate like other countries?

    And, by the way, do you actually know any journalists or editors? Or are you just a hermit dependent on electronic communications for your simulation of interaction with the eorld and its media?

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  145. @TT
    As i clearly mentioned i never will eat dog, even my hospitable Korean colleagues invited, neither do i pretend to be morally superior to China people or Koreans.

    They are morally better than those who do cruel game hunting for fun, certainly wolves & fox(Oz exterminate with poison baits) are more intelligent than dogs. And some Oz like ramping down Kangaroos for fun, also slaughtering them for dog food.

    Your persistent regurgitation of West msm propaganda sewage without bother to even read what others tried to provide a reliable alternative independent info on NK has clearly reflect on your credibility.

    A country under such unprecedented destruction with bombs more than whole ww2 add up dropped in a tiny land, flattening every civilian cities with anything that moved, under 50yrs of crushing embargo, could rebuild with such stella performance nation that even WHO Secretary after visited, exclaimed "a healthcare that is of US envy".

    We are world apart in our desire for truth, so we should stop here.

    Whether you eat or don’t eat dogs is and was of no interest to me which is why I did not acknowledge the trivial detail that you didn’t yourself do what caused you to write so many words.

    On important matters which you have evaded… Do you deny that Kim Jong-un is an autocrat dependent above all on military support? Do you deny that he had his uncle murdered (and one of his popular projects obliterated)? Do you deny that his half brother was murdered in Malaysia by North Korean agents? Fo you deny the figures showing North Korean malnutition which could have been relieved by expenditure diverted from armaments including the nuclear program as well as luxuries available to officials and senior military officers? Do you deny the abduction of Japanese nationals and the denial of their right to return or indeed of their existence over several decades dedpite North Korea not being at war with Japan? And, as to sanctions, what has that mattered while China and Russia have been their close neighbours and defenders/supporters?

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  146. @TT
    As i clearly mentioned i never will eat dog, even my hospitable Korean colleagues invited, neither do i pretend to be morally superior to China people or Koreans.

    They are morally better than those who do cruel game hunting for fun, certainly wolves & fox(Oz exterminate with poison baits) are more intelligent than dogs. And some Oz like ramping down Kangaroos for fun, also slaughtering them for dog food.

    Your persistent regurgitation of West msm propaganda sewage without bother to even read what others tried to provide a reliable alternative independent info on NK has clearly reflect on your credibility.

    A country under such unprecedented destruction with bombs more than whole ww2 add up dropped in a tiny land, flattening every civilian cities with anything that moved, under 50yrs of crushing embargo, could rebuild with such stella performance nation that even WHO Secretary after visited, exclaimed "a healthcare that is of US envy".

    We are world apart in our desire for truth, so we should stop here.

    Oh yes: And why don’t they let their citizens emigrate like other countries?

    And, by the way, do you actually know any journalists or editors? Or are you just a hermit dependent on electronic communications for your simulation of interaction with the eorld and its media?

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    • Replies: @TT
    I don't write for you to read, but for some who can benefits from independent sources that i find worthy.

    You are making yourself a laughing stock by asking those questions that you should answer yourself, what your Wapo & BBC feed you since born.

    Your comments everywhere have almost no substance, ranting on very obscured hinting & abstract delusional stories, quoting obvious West msm nonsense as usual. Even one word of you is a waste of time & resource, sorry to say.

    I engaged you simply to support Mr Roberts, who do us great favour in sharing some good insights of China. My goal completed, readers can judge themselves who has better credibility & talk sense.
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  147. Vidi says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I'm perfectly happy for you to eat dogs and even spend an inordinate proportion of your word count defending it but you can hardly expect people to accept your pretence of wanting civilised discourse when you go into bat head over heels for North Korea whose leader has had his uncle and half brother murdered, refuses to allow emigration, and has so distorted the use of and access to resources that his underfed people are on average several centimetres shorter than those in South Korea.

    North Korea whose leader has had his uncle and half brother murdered

    What evidence have you that Kim Jong Un had his uncle and half brother killed? As opposed to them being killed by the CIA, an American organization with a very long record of assassinations?

    Last year, the NK Ministry of State Security accused the CIA of trying to kill the leader (Kim) :

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/05/cia-long-history-kill-leaders-around-the-world-north-korea

    Of course, the Guardian is no longer that reliable, and the North Korean government may also have reasons to be flexible with the truth. But I am not dismissing the accusation out of hand, because the CIA has such a long, unsavory history.

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  148. TT says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Oh yes: And why don't they let their citizens emigrate like other countries?

    And, by the way, do you actually know any journalists or editors? Or are you just a hermit dependent on electronic communications for your simulation of interaction with the eorld and its media?

    I don’t write for you to read, but for some who can benefits from independent sources that i find worthy.

    You are making yourself a laughing stock by asking those questions that you should answer yourself, what your Wapo & BBC feed you since born.

    Your comments everywhere have almost no substance, ranting on very obscured hinting & abstract delusional stories, quoting obvious West msm nonsense as usual. Even one word of you is a waste of time & resource, sorry to say.

    I engaged you simply to support Mr Roberts, who do us great favour in sharing some good insights of China. My goal completed, readers can judge themselves who has better credibility & talk sense.

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  149. I see you turned up on UR as Vidi (not Vici I am glad to note) in September last year and I still haven’t worked out why. (You are far superior to TT and I don’t think you are an alter ego of Godfee Roberts though I haven’t totally and finally excluded that possibility. A plural person? I don’t think so. They tend to go out of control like the unlamented “Rehmat”).

    The reason I remain interested is that your last comment, presumably tossed off quite carelessly, contained the rather odd “as opposed to them being killed by the CIA” which presupposes a rewriting of an awful lot of what passes for contemporary history, and, above all, finding motive. I suppose a mate of Oswald Mosley might have suggested in the 1930s that the “Night of the Long Knives ” was not Hitler’s wickedness against his former leading supporters but the work of the NKVD or French or British intelligence. But I don’t see you as in that company or class.

    Indeed, i have a lot of respect for your usual judicious balanced style which conforms with my preference for witholding overstatement and over certainty. I not only welcome the direction my already multi-racial, (actively integrating) multi-cultural country is likely to go with the right kind of immigration policy, I could see myself living comfortably in many non Islamic Asian countries, including China, without wishing them more democratic by theoretical Western standards. Still you aren’t really going to go into bat for North Korea as an acceptable way to run a country are you?!?
    I guess you might be a quite polymathic person with a scientific background – if only senior level teaching physics and chemistry at high school on what you have so far disclosed – and one who has at least a serious interest in, and, probably, experience of East Asia. Possibly of East Asian parentage but I guess not.

    Aha! It has taken me some time to find that it was indeed you who said “China has changed the world already with the Four Great Inventions”. It didn’t strike me as necessarily meeting your intellectual standards. Did European’s use of those inventions depend on acquiring them from China as implied? Not so it seems as for a long time the Three Great Inventions were assumed to be European and traced to their German “inventors”. (See the good Wiki article on “Four Great Inventions”) So what? Your point about contemporary China being able to learn from others and innovate to great effect (my paraphrase) is perfectly valid.

    Clearly institutions and related culture played a dominant part in the rise of Europe and relative decline of China. Combined with further rapid innovation such as the internet and 5G change becomes an accelerating phenomenon in some areas, posing challenges in others which China seems determined to meet, albeit within some Chinese specific constraints (fear of China’s history of internal chaos and warlordism amongst them???). Not so most Islamic countries. Big ellipsis…..
    [Note that on the first definition searching will produce that is complimentry to you.....]

    Demography is the elephant in the room we haven’t given enough attention to. Cf. John Detbyshire’s recent UR article. Cf. also the fact that Malthus would have continued to be right everywhere but for “The European Miracle” (Eric Jones’s book title).

    I once said, about 1999 in a formal interview, that nothing we were talking about would look in 25 years time as important as China’s One Child Policy. Thank G (if there were one) that countries which didn’t need to catch up were spared such hard measures! Now btw one has to ask whether it hasn’t been dysgenic. At least China still has millions more bright minds to invent a healthy future for us in the undoubtedly dysgenically breeding West. Demographics should also cast an explanatory light on the past to make rabid nationalists and chauvinists of all persuasions understand why so many changes occurred or were frustrated. How come there are so many poor Africans and subcontinentals multiplying and surviving still today when they were all so happy 200 years ago? Some of those who rightly deplore some of the results of having welfare states should consider how much better the world would nonetheless be for our greatgrandchildren if African families were given pensions for restraining their fertlity snd educating the girls…..

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  150. TT says:

    Blame Kim for their poverty, courtesy of axis of evils embargo by US Nato UK, Canada, Oz & Nz.

    Some beautiful photos of NK.

    Mansudae Grand Monument

    Sunset view overlooking
    the Grand People’s Study House

    The city of Pyongyang

    A Farmer and his Child at Chonsam Cooperative Farm

    Koryo Museum Entrance

    Wonsan City

    Pyongyang City

    The city with the unique architecture building, along a straight Highway

    Blame these countries gov for not giving them Australia living standard. Nikki Harley shrieking in UN, we must support economic angry protestors to subvert Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Africa, Palestinian, Lebanon, Vietnam, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia, Philippine, Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Brazil, Agentina, South America, Mexico,…China 40yrs ago, endless list of West & Oz sabotage job.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Why are only a limited class of North Koreans able to enjoy the good things available there? Good hospitals you say - but for whom?
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  151. gT says:
    @Anon
    i thought you shameful "redneck" of country but it seems you even dumber, sack of shit that speak only one language. Иди́ к чёрту! you robber hurt us more....shameful hiding words blame others...anglo.

    -vavalika

    Oh dear, so now I’m Redneck Anglo again …

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  152. TT says:

    Juz google Beautiful North Korea to see for yourself those photos taken by visitors, compare with what West is lying with down under Oz gov. There were some old articles in Globalresearch showing photo of its medical care, schools, libraries, underground tubes, gymnastics, museums, etc. They are of truly amazing high standard, far from the msm propaganda.

    Majon beach

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Just like the Moscow underground (?Metro) was such a great proof of the superior performance of the USSR and its economy!

    BTW if so much money can be spent on what you admire why are so many North Koreans of stunted growth from poor nutrition and treated as an under class?
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  153. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @TT
    Juz google Beautiful North Korea to see for yourself those photos taken by visitors, compare with what West is lying with down under Oz gov. There were some old articles in Globalresearch showing photo of its medical care, schools, libraries, underground tubes, gymnastics, museums, etc. They are of truly amazing high standard, far from the msm propaganda.

    http://2northkorea.com/sites/default/files/field/image/13-north-korea.jpg

    http://2northkorea.com/sites/default/files/field/image/13-north-korea.jpg

    https://www.bradtguides.com/media/wysiwyg/destinations/asia/North-Korea/International_Friendship_Exhibition_Uwe-Brodrecht_wikicommons.jpg

    Majon beach
    https://www.bradtguides.com/media/wysiwyg/destinations/asia/North-Korea/P-North-Korea-Majon-Beach-HilaryBradt.jpg

    Just like the Moscow underground (?Metro) was such a great proof of the superior performance of the USSR and its economy!

    BTW if so much money can be spent on what you admire why are so many North Koreans of stunted growth from poor nutrition and treated as an under class?

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  154. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @TT
    Blame Kim for their poverty, courtesy of axis of evils embargo by US Nato UK, Canada, Oz & Nz.

    Some beautiful photos of NK.

    Mansudae Grand Monument
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8749/16649315544_191425092c_b.jpg

    Sunset view overlooking
    the Grand People's Study House
    https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7665/16651540723_5289a0b900_b.jpg

    The city of Pyongyang
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8818/17064350307_68240fd478_b.jpg

    A Farmer and his Child at Chonsam Cooperative Farm
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8782/17084227210_c6ab2f0ffa_b.jpg

    Koryo Museum Entrance
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8767/16649314244_6b0777744b_b.jpg

    Wonsan City
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8743/17085561229_f72bcf36f6_b.jpg

    Pyongyang City
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8757/16649315904_3dab014a61_b.jpg

    http://www.todaynews24h.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/If-North-Korea-does-not-suffer-the-worlds-embargo-then-North-Korea-will-likely-be-the-power.jpg

    http://www.todaynews24h.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/If-North-Korea-does-not-suffer-the-worlds-embargo-then-North-Korea-will-likely-be-the-power-1.jpg

    The city with the unique architecture building, along a straight Highway
    http://www.todaynews24h.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/If-North-Korea-does-not-suffer-the-worlds-embargo-then-North-Korea-will-likely-be-the-power-4.jpg

    http://www.todaynews24h.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/If-North-Korea-does-not-suffer-the-worlds-embargo-then-North-Korea-will-likely-be-the-power-5.jpg

    Blame these countries gov for not giving them Australia living standard. Nikki Harley shrieking in UN, we must support economic angry protestors to subvert Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Africa, Palestinian, Lebanon, Vietnam, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia, Philippine, Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Brazil, Agentina, South America, Mexico,…China 40yrs ago, endless list of West & Oz sabotage job.

    Why are only a limited class of North Koreans able to enjoy the good things available there? Good hospitals you say – but for whom?

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    • Replies: @TT
    Good question, how do we know what's happening inside NK as we are fed with Western msm fake news since birth, that contradicted with everyone who visited those countries personally, incl a WHO Secretary. I believe those individual visitors are more reliable than Western mouthpiece msm.

    Visit yourself to find out like i did for some, such as China which has been foretold to collapse under own debts with failed debt fueled bubble economic over 30yrs by numerous lying West & Indian shameless scholars.

    A constant propaganda hyping on next superpower prosperous demoncraptic India that becoming more Hindustan shithole with time. If you read my comment history, im very critical on India corrupted ruling class & its millions of shameless cheating Indians, but very much loving the country rich civilization that surpass China history, & their beautiful rural people.

    A very peaceful Myanmar is been smeared with fake news of forced labour, rampant rapes & killing & Rohingya crisis just because its so resource rich and pro-China.

    Similarly, peaceful Sri Lanka is been sabotaged with West & India supported Tamil TTE terrorism & Muslim riots, etc.

    In some articles, Cuba was found to has the best sustainable Western medical care & free training for global doctors, and flourishing organic farming under crushing embargo.

    Iran is one of tech powerhouse & secular country subverted by West for not willing to be subjugated. And blame their econmic hardship on their gov instead of west sanction.

    So is Venezuela with world largest proven oil gas is been told so bad people are eating their pets & riot over loaf of bread. Africa most prosperous Libya, oil rich Iraq, all oil resource rich countries are under attacked, incl Russia. Afghanistan has the highest ore resources for lithium battery, and CIA's world largest opium agri plantation.

    A secular Syria where Christian & non Muslims get to live harmony with Muslims has become Assad must go terrorist proxy war, after Assad refused to accept a US Israel bad deal of pipe across Syria to link Israel(stolen offshore gas field) & Saudi gas fields to EU, and a discovery ofpotential super oil gas field) ... long list of fake news smeared & sabotaged countries.

    Globalresearch.ca has some quite interesting articles on all above, you can search by keywords. Im in slow internet data plan over phone, living in 3rd world now, take too much time to list for you.

    It seem always turn out to be a propaganda lies in my personal visits, and those countries make so poor/disorder by West oil & military vultures embargo on humanity ground, that these countries leaders are either trying to preserve their little resources for their elites, or under uncontrollable corruption breed by poverty & Western sabotaging.

    In our country, high level healthcare is basic for even every poor, but the wealthy still get super private hospital care, isn't it. Similarly, in these poor countries, basic healthcare are only affordable by the rich mostly, except NK which is very remarkable to provide high level healthcare for all according to WHO.
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  155. @Godfree Roberts
    Substantively similar, but not as boastful.

    I have just read two articles touching on rule of law ideals aspirations and actualities that I think you would find rewarding. Both are in the April 5 – 18 issue of the NYRB Volume LXV, Number 6.

    One is by NY Federal District Judge Jed Rakoff and paints a sad picture of the American judiciary’s systematic failure to hold the Executive (especially the military and “national security” related) to account. That of course is a big blemish on America’s reputation as a Rule of Law country though it doesn’t affect the nature or validity of objections made against the legal systems of countries which don’t even aspire to be Rule of Law countries.

    The other article is even more relevant to considering why one might not wish to be at the mercy of Communist police, prosecutors and judges in China. It is “God is a Russian” by Timothy Snyder, Levin Professor of History at Yale. He writes of the extraordinary philosopher Ivan Ilyin [yes, by partly fortunate coincidence for him, a nom de guerre of Lenin]. Ilyin started out as one of the young educated Russians who wanted above all the rule of law in the Czar’s empire, though puzzled about how you could sell the idea to the vast peasantry.

    He was inspired by German philosopers, including Kant and Hegel, though not necessarily consistently. But by the time he had been helped out of trouble by Lenin (though, unlike Lenin he believed in God in an idiosyncratic way) and escaped the Soviet Union to form part of the cheer squad for White fascist revanchism against the Bolsheviks he became an enthusiast for Mussolini.

    Should we be surprised that Putin and many others including the ex KGB man heading the Russian Orthodox Church have taken to quoting him favourably as supporting Putin’s type of supposedly nationalistic autocracy.
    In 1925 he wrote “fascism is a redemptive excess of patriotic arbitrariness” in praise of forms of government which were clearly not conventionally Christian or in favour of rule of law. No doubt Mr Xi would approve the sentiment if it could be sobered up a bit for the technocrats. There are too many good quotes for me to load this up with now, but do look out for the word “virtue” about three quarters of the way through and consider what humbug a traditional Chinese mandarin might think it coming from a barbarian – and opportunistic – Slav, even though they also disdain the individualistic Western idea of Rule of Law.

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    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    In all times and places, the legal process is subordinate to the political and it is hypocritical of our oligarchs to claim otherwise. There is no such thing as an independent legal system, anywhere.

    Unless rule of law is subordinate to rule of virtue, the result will be what we have in the US today: thousands executed and millions incarcerated without trial and public confidence in the courts at an all time low.

    China's balance between virtue and law works much better. When Harvard’s Tony Saich asked the public to prioritize their concerns, they ranked ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ highest and, when he asked which government service they were most satisfied with they again placed ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ first. www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/23812346.2016.1138690.

    Would they swap their system for ours?
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  156. @TT
    Your posted subscription links is always not accessible, pls take note.

    While US President Donald Trump is turning up the heat on Beijing with escalating tariffs against Chinese exports to the US, the long-term result may be the opposite of what he intended.
     
    This writer has missed some important deeper points. The entire trade war is not just serving Trumps' gimmick for year end election only, it also serve to block Made by China 2025 plan & aspiration to move up supply chain to high tech innovation. This is China core interest, not to be negotiated.

    All high tech products like aerospace, flat TV, medical, semicon, telecomm, robotics, etc are targeted purposefully to deny China development like 5G & AI, access to US market, and West technology sharing.

    US plan to keep China at bottom supply chain with meagre margins while US continue to reap high profit at top end, with dominant control to entire high tech supply.

    China knows, its a trade blockage to its 2025 plan, like 70% self sufficient target in semicon. West & Japan have been blocking China access to semicon technology since 1950's, refused high tech equipments sales, with sprawling IP filing to sue late comer. Only simpleton like Caldre believe US has been generously transferring technology & FDI to make China successful.

    Trumps steel & alu tariffs is catalyst aimed to split EU & others to block China trade, as it exempted some countries while China accounted for merely 4% is targeted. Its to blackmail China into accepting unequal terms in later trade negotiation, and to obsolete WTO after it has finished serving China Squeezing purpose. China well seasoned technocrat leaders see through what a little biz man Trumps' team is up to.

    After China countered with Trumps $3B steel & alu tariffs targeting his agri redneck voting bank, Trumps arrogantly list out $50B tariffs as bigger threat, while tweeting no trade war with his trade minister seeking visit to Beijing. China slap back $50B list on cars, aerospace, agri, etc. within 12hrs, very impressive speed to deny Trumps chance to back down.

    Without China expanding largest market, US car industry will relegate to 2nd tier, surpass by Germany & Jp. Boeing will have less orders. Such market unable to meet certain production qty can turn profit to loss as overhead is high.

    China export only account for 19% of its GDP, with US accounted for 15%. So China can live without US trade, unlike other country. With its strong production base & policy, $3T reserves, it can expedite restructuring to emerge stronger.

    US will miss the world largest market, while China continue its trade expansion into the world enabled by BRI to generate wealth to more countries, hence new market for China.

    And Petrol Yuan will be expanded into all tradings at faster pace since a prosperous US market no longer a bonus, hence a quicken death to US dollar.

    Now Trumps unable to retract unless China let him climb down by concession, has up his bet to $100B, China vowed to follow suit at any cost. Also China file complaint to WTO.

    So trade war will be retaliated in full force. China just warn that it will not just trading be targeted, asymmetric war will be applied to stop many strategic cooperations.

    Most Chinese trade bodies & Chinese are supporting their gov to fight all out as they perceived that as US bully, vs all murkans jumping angrily over what's gonna hit their livelihood.

    Also many US companies are producing in China to import back cheap, tariffs only hurt them & US consumers, together with EU & Jp, Korea losing export to China, as China is only the assembly line making up small value.

    There is another huge service sector, oil & gas import, & financial market that US has big trade surplus, which China will target at its discretion. US FDI is also reaping huge profit in China, like car joint venture, which will be screwed when trade war escalate. Plenty of buttons for China to press, since China is more open to US investment than US to China.

    China will now control the game play by its own rule in scaling up or down, as Trumps can't show weakness to back down even US can ill afford a full trade war with its weak economy, jobless & high debts.

    And its people simply aren't keen in trade war hardship as there isn't cheaper replacement to vast China products stocking all shelves nor any manufacturing capacity to boost jobs.

    Trumps has dig a big hole for himself, deeper as he up ante with fantasy thinking that he can hold China ransom in new trade nego(cheap developer technique, talk tough threaten to walk away to squeeze supplier), while getting some extra tax revenue from new tariffs.

    He has more self mined IED in new Taiwan Relationship law, coming NK nego, Diayu Island, SCS FON, all touching China core interest, awaiting his foolish detonation as bargain chip to China which will flare up at his face. His grand daughter Mandarin poems singing at Chinese Embassy won't work anymore.

    Its amazing US allowed their country to rule over by idiots in a row run with team of inexperienced banker & generals. How are these clowns gonna compete with China best elite technocrat leaders carefully proven & elected over few decades.

    It will be a interesting year to watch how it shape geopolitics, with Petro Yuan, Trade war & Syria war as Trumps tweeted to exit while alarming heavy assets are flown into their Syria & Jordan new bases. Taking on rivalry best strength simultaneously, Russia military & China economy.

    Disagree, China exports a lot more to America than vice versa. Tariffs will hit some US companies hard, but overall China will suffer more than the US. Also, remember that many Chinese exports to US are products produced for European and Japanese companies. Germany and Japan will probably be hit harder than the US, which is why they’re getting alarmed. If the US had a tariff war with Latin America it might be a different story, as the US has an export surplus with Latin America, but you can’t loose a trade war with a country you have a big trade deficit with.

    You’re making the western mistake of looking at this from the perspective of individual actors rather than nations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    Actually, America's balance of trade has nothing to do with China or anyone else. It's an entirely domestic matter, as former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, Harvard professor Martin Feldstein, has written, “every student of economics knows or should know that the current account balance of each country is determined within its own borders and not by its trading partners.” Basic accounting principles tell us that the United States’ overall trade deficit is the result of a shortage in national savings relative to spending due to excessive government budget deficits and households consuming beyond their means. The countries that show up as being the source of the offsetting trade surpluses are coincidental".

    [End the currency manipulation debate - Financial Times.
    https://www.ft.com/content/527f9d0a-b97b-3cd1-9fd6-2c6e75f3824f
    , @Wizard of Oz
    I don't think he's making a "Western mistake". Count TT as a junior or middling officer in a Chinese Consulate, probably in the US. He's received some of his education in an English speaking country.
    , @TT

    but you can’t loose a trade war with a country you have a big trade deficit with.

    You’re making the western mistake of looking at this from the perspective of individual actors rather than nations.

     

    We can always agree to disagree. But you are blinded by US msm & simple algebra. Why Trumps is trying to soften down after Down jones wiped out more than tariff can get, while China is in unusual high posture, determined to teach tyranny US a very painful lesson, as its said a war at all cost like Korean war to stop future tyranny blackmail & geopolitical harassment.

    According to China trade figures, actual China exports to US is only high 200+B, vs US inflated trade figure 500+B. The different come from US is using arrived shore figure that include all US export parts & freight/insurance gross cost. China is working on actual local value added, ie leaving shore less imported US components. So actual deficit is not as wide, and EU, Jp, Korea will take most of blunt in high tech goods tariff.

    Take iphone as eg in a article i read, you have most parts imported eg from US(Qualcomm Snapdragon Cpu), Jp ICs, Korea memory & screen, etc. Taiwan Foxconn simply assembled, added value is meagre less than $1, add other China local parts $5... total cost say $300. Apple is said to make 70% gross margin out of $1000 price tag selling in China too, while china get less than 1~5%. And China is largest market next to US if you lose it.

    In a simplified eg of 2way 20% tariff, means imported US components get hit & inflated iphone cost to say $330. Arriving US 20% tariff, iphone bcom say $400, selling at $1100. US consumer pay extra $100, Trumps get extra tax revenue $66, so do China get $30 to offset other loss. Who lost in iphone tariff?

    You simply have no alternative consider China is having world entire low-mid level supply chains, go Walmart do a stock check.

    It will take US at least 5~10yrs to reestablish its manufacturing capacity even murkans willing to bite dust by accepting China salary, but still lack China economic of scale & hyper efficiency, which as Steve Jobs said, jobs aren't returning to US.
    http://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20120123/apples-jobs-to-obama-jobs-arent-coming-back-to-us

    Sure EU & Jp, Korea will get hit badly as i highlighted too, as they contributed much components in this globalization supply chain. And they will be next target after China trade war. They are all in slow economic crisis with high unemployment if you research abit.

    China is providing 30% global growth, if it stalled, everyone goes down. These people are smart enough to know, Trumps or Xi is better bet for future.

    And China has yet to pull its lever on financial, service sector, FDI that US has vast surplus with China. China plan to make bigger cake, US think zero sum, its a trade war US will lost, very miserable & catastrophe, consider every parameters & China war chess of $4T reserve with 60% saving rate that immune it from worst case US zero trade for decade.

    But this trade war & Petrol Yuan are more than struggle between China & US people as Chinese rational leaders have no hate to their customers-US people, its a existential fight between China-Russia alliance with Warstreet Bankers owned Fed who uses Anglozionist controlled US as mightiest machine to control global money (free Petrol USD printing) & resources under unipolar. If China win, benevolent Prez Xi will save the world & roll out a fair term multipolar world, otherwise all ended as slave.

    If i have time will translate one interesting article: who is actually behind all these sudden hysteria war against Russia & China, that in history every Potus who dare resist get either killed or impeached.

    And US is having deficit trade with hundred of countries not out of coincident, it is to export out its Fed free printing USD while import cheap products to keep hyper inflation off, with excess USD flow back to US treasury & investment to finance endless lavish life live on debts. Your budget deficit will soon reach $1T p. a., piling up on $21T debts with astronomical interest payment, living beyond a means to pay back.

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  157. @Wizard of Oz
    I have just read two articles touching on rule of law ideals aspirations and actualities that I think you would find rewarding. Both are in the April 5 - 18 issue of the NYRB Volume LXV, Number 6.

    One is by NY Federal District Judge Jed Rakoff and paints a sad picture of the American judiciary's systematic failure to hold the Executive (especially the military and "national security" related) to account. That of course is a big blemish on America's reputation as a Rule of Law country though it doesn't affect the nature or validity of objections made against the legal systems of countries which don't even aspire to be Rule of Law countries.

    The other article is even more relevant to considering why one might not wish to be at the mercy of Communist police, prosecutors and judges in China. It is "God is a Russian" by Timothy Snyder, Levin Professor of History at Yale. He writes of the extraordinary philosopher Ivan Ilyin [yes, by partly fortunate coincidence for him, a nom de guerre of Lenin]. Ilyin started out as one of the young educated Russians who wanted above all the rule of law in the Czar's empire, though puzzled about how you could sell the idea to the vast peasantry.

    He was inspired by German philosopers, including Kant and Hegel, though not necessarily consistently. But by the time he had been helped out of trouble by Lenin (though, unlike Lenin he believed in God in an idiosyncratic way) and escaped the Soviet Union to form part of the cheer squad for White fascist revanchism against the Bolsheviks he became an enthusiast for Mussolini.

    Should we be surprised that Putin and many others including the ex KGB man heading the Russian Orthodox Church have taken to quoting him favourably as supporting Putin's type of supposedly nationalistic autocracy.
    In 1925 he wrote "fascism is a redemptive excess of patriotic arbitrariness" in praise of forms of government which were clearly not conventionally Christian or in favour of rule of law. No doubt Mr Xi would approve the sentiment if it could be sobered up a bit for the technocrats. There are too many good quotes for me to load this up with now, but do look out for the word "virtue" about three quarters of the way through and consider what humbug a traditional Chinese mandarin might think it coming from a barbarian - and opportunistic - Slav, even though they also disdain the individualistic Western idea of Rule of Law.

    In all times and places, the legal process is subordinate to the political and it is hypocritical of our oligarchs to claim otherwise. There is no such thing as an independent legal system, anywhere.

    Unless rule of law is subordinate to rule of virtue, the result will be what we have in the US today: thousands executed and millions incarcerated without trial and public confidence in the courts at an all time low.

    China’s balance between virtue and law works much better. When Harvard’s Tony Saich asked the public to prioritize their concerns, they ranked ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ highest and, when he asked which government service they were most satisfied with they again placed ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ first. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/23812346.2016.1138690.

    Would they swap their system for ours?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Please don't spoil your good stuff by asserting so positively more than you know. Your "in all times and places the legal process is subordinate to the political and it is hypocritical [sic, I think you probably meant 'self-deceiving'] for the oligarchs to claim otherwise. There is no such thing as an independent legal system [I think you mean judiciary, don't you, although an ethical legal profession is vital too] anywhere" is rhetorical overkill that conveys very little truth of any value.

    I can assure you that lawyers in your country of origin, particularly the independent Bars, take great pride in collegiality and boring it up governments in their many manifestations, and big business and unions. I recall well the pride felt when the government was determined on a hanging (it got one last one four years later) and successive judges had refused applications for injunctions, eventually at 9.30 pm on the Tuesday before the 8 am Thursday hanging, after which three judges of the High Court of Australia fitted in a Wednesday morning Melbourne hearing before departure for the Sydney sittings of the court and the Chief Justice requested of the Solicitor-General an undertaking to the court that the hanging would not take place before the matter could be considered properly on the following Tuesday. The Solicitor-General knew his political masters too well to give that undertaking at his own discretion so the Chief Justice said " We make this order solely to uphold the inherent authority of this court [NB. not in any statute or constitution but "inherent" and the CJ was privately rather contemptuous of the senior judge who had sat until late the night before] to preserve the subject matter of an appeal" and he pronounced the injunctive order.

    Then you would also be aware of the failures of governments before the courts in the vital matter of taxes. Of course you can say as a trite truism that there is no pure independent judicial or legal system any more than there can be anything close to pure free trade but that is to prefer trivia to substance. As with most of our virtues we have to put up with aspirations and striving for the ideal.

    And again you have brought in the word "virtue" again that seems to me to show that we are engaged in a dialogue where our arguments are never destined to meet on the same ground. Assuming a judge is not bribable and - a problem here for Chinese judges - not going to be influenced in his decision by anything communicated outside the court hearing or by the authority or status of counsel, where does "virtue" come in?

    The law says A is in the right but I judge that he is a bad man so I shall find against him!?!

    A and B have a dispute over whether building work complied with specs and should be paid for or whether it is so defective that only rebuilding will suffice. Scope for "virtue"??!!!

    A is quite right that no tax is legally payable on his large windfall gain but we think a virtuous man would have given up half the gain to the state if not to a charity - which he has not claimed....

    If you really know the connotations of "virtue" in the Chinese legal context can you say how it affects outcomes in practice? How does it differ from traditions of judges having to hear both/all parties and sllow them to develop their cases fully, that judges must have no personal interest in tbe outcome, that they follow carefully worked out sentencing guidelines etc? It does seem that they effectively take orders from the party.

    I ask about the concept because I can imagine the explosive derision of the average Australian barrister if he went to the swearing in of the new CJ and heard him/her say that if he wanted anything to be remembered of his tenure he would like it to be that it was marked by Virtue's elevation as a judicial principle and as a concept whose time had come for deep embedding in our traditions. After all what would you make of that? Humbug surely? So why not also the Chinese version that you favour?

    BTW did you know that the several Australian Bars were so keen on independence of the judiciary that they staunchly opposed promotion of judges within one jurisdiction where it could be seen as a reward for siding with the State as litigant? True, though sadly not observed now.

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  158. @unpc downunder
    Disagree, China exports a lot more to America than vice versa. Tariffs will hit some US companies hard, but overall China will suffer more than the US. Also, remember that many Chinese exports to US are products produced for European and Japanese companies. Germany and Japan will probably be hit harder than the US, which is why they're getting alarmed. If the US had a tariff war with Latin America it might be a different story, as the US has an export surplus with Latin America, but you can't loose a trade war with a country you have a big trade deficit with.

    You're making the western mistake of looking at this from the perspective of individual actors rather than nations.

    Actually, America’s balance of trade has nothing to do with China or anyone else. It’s an entirely domestic matter, as former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, Harvard professor Martin Feldstein, has written, “every student of economics knows or should know that the current account balance of each country is determined within its own borders and not by its trading partners.” Basic accounting principles tell us that the United States’ overall trade deficit is the result of a shortage in national savings relative to spending due to excessive government budget deficits and households consuming beyond their means. The countries that show up as being the source of the offsetting trade surpluses are coincidental”.

    [End the currency manipulation debate – Financial Times.

    https://www.ft.com/content/527f9d0a-b97b-3cd1-9fd6-2c6e75f3824f

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You are conflating balance of payments with balance of trade. I don't blame you being confused by that Martin Feldstein article which wouldn't open on the FT site but I got in pdf form elsewhere. I think Feldstein should have reread ot and self-edited it to remove some, to put it politely, opaque statements.

    To deny the possibility of currrncy manipulation - or equivalent protective measures - can cause damage to or in the non- manipulator (but also maybe the manipulator) is plain wrong. It's not just a case of American workers losing their jobs or being paid less because their employers can't compete with Chinese imports (that many of their employed countrymen enjoy) the same is true of Germany's currency being undervalued and putting Greeks out of jobs because it is the one size fits all Euro and the Germans are so much more efficient that they have much the same cost advantage as China vis a vis America.

    It seems inevitable that lower paid Americans are going to do worse than the high skill-high paid as their smarter compatriots decide not to give up the advantages of global freeish trade. And, as good Christians, although age and geographical location may make adjusting a bit hard, are they going to begrudge higher incomes for poor people in developing countries? :-)
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  159. @unpc downunder
    Disagree, China exports a lot more to America than vice versa. Tariffs will hit some US companies hard, but overall China will suffer more than the US. Also, remember that many Chinese exports to US are products produced for European and Japanese companies. Germany and Japan will probably be hit harder than the US, which is why they're getting alarmed. If the US had a tariff war with Latin America it might be a different story, as the US has an export surplus with Latin America, but you can't loose a trade war with a country you have a big trade deficit with.

    You're making the western mistake of looking at this from the perspective of individual actors rather than nations.

    I don’t think he’s making a “Western mistake”. Count TT as a junior or middling officer in a Chinese Consulate, probably in the US. He’s received some of his education in an English speaking country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT
    Im not from China, which make my views & comment more objective on China, West, Jp, Korea & India. But my interest in current affairs & wide traveling in global business & works provide me a slightly better perspective than average worker. And internet is the wonderful key to access abundant independent info.

    I can never be qualified in China Imperial Exam, its too competitive with talents from 1.4B, let alone becoming their consulate official de creame of crops.

    Although after graduating, my country gov official did offered me a foreign affair job after interviewing me for a technical post, as they found lacking in such candidates. But i turned down, didn't realize it was one of most profitable job simply by a middle man for illicit deals like weapon & banned goods utilizing wide contacts & diplomat privilege.

    And i prefered to live a lay back life in down under Oz where property & cars are dirt cheap, with good welfare & nice people under sunny beach front house with my own yatch, not as gloomy cold in UK or crime infested US. But after getting my residency & living for some time, i found itch to move on, otherwise we are Oz mate...so im on 3rd world exploring...oh those damn shitholes juz so interesting.... hehehehe
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  160. @Godfree Roberts
    Actually, America's balance of trade has nothing to do with China or anyone else. It's an entirely domestic matter, as former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, Harvard professor Martin Feldstein, has written, “every student of economics knows or should know that the current account balance of each country is determined within its own borders and not by its trading partners.” Basic accounting principles tell us that the United States’ overall trade deficit is the result of a shortage in national savings relative to spending due to excessive government budget deficits and households consuming beyond their means. The countries that show up as being the source of the offsetting trade surpluses are coincidental".

    [End the currency manipulation debate - Financial Times.
    https://www.ft.com/content/527f9d0a-b97b-3cd1-9fd6-2c6e75f3824f

    You are conflating balance of payments with balance of trade. I don’t blame you being confused by that Martin Feldstein article which wouldn’t open on the FT site but I got in pdf form elsewhere. I think Feldstein should have reread ot and self-edited it to remove some, to put it politely, opaque statements.

    To deny the possibility of currrncy manipulation – or equivalent protective measures – can cause damage to or in the non- manipulator (but also maybe the manipulator) is plain wrong. It’s not just a case of American workers losing their jobs or being paid less because their employers can’t compete with Chinese imports (that many of their employed countrymen enjoy) the same is true of Germany’s currency being undervalued and putting Greeks out of jobs because it is the one size fits all Euro and the Germans are so much more efficient that they have much the same cost advantage as China vis a vis America.

    It seems inevitable that lower paid Americans are going to do worse than the high skill-high paid as their smarter compatriots decide not to give up the advantages of global freeish trade. And, as good Christians, although age and geographical location may make adjusting a bit hard, are they going to begrudge higher incomes for poor people in developing countries? :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    Thanks for picking that up. I've wondered about it ever since I first read it.

    Could you correct it along the lines you suggest, so that it reads as clearly as it should? I don't have the background to do that.
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  161. @Godfree Roberts
    In all times and places, the legal process is subordinate to the political and it is hypocritical of our oligarchs to claim otherwise. There is no such thing as an independent legal system, anywhere.

    Unless rule of law is subordinate to rule of virtue, the result will be what we have in the US today: thousands executed and millions incarcerated without trial and public confidence in the courts at an all time low.

    China's balance between virtue and law works much better. When Harvard’s Tony Saich asked the public to prioritize their concerns, they ranked ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ highest and, when he asked which government service they were most satisfied with they again placed ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ first. www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/23812346.2016.1138690.

    Would they swap their system for ours?

    Please don’t spoil your good stuff by asserting so positively more than you know. Your “in all times and places the legal process is subordinate to the political and it is hypocritical [sic, I think you probably meant 'self-deceiving'] for the oligarchs to claim otherwise. There is no such thing as an independent legal system [I think you mean judiciary, don't you, although an ethical legal profession is vital too] anywhere” is rhetorical overkill that conveys very little truth of any value.

    I can assure you that lawyers in your country of origin, particularly the independent Bars, take great pride in collegiality and boring it up governments in their many manifestations, and big business and unions. I recall well the pride felt when the government was determined on a hanging (it got one last one four years later) and successive judges had refused applications for injunctions, eventually at 9.30 pm on the Tuesday before the 8 am Thursday hanging, after which three judges of the High Court of Australia fitted in a Wednesday morning Melbourne hearing before departure for the Sydney sittings of the court and the Chief Justice requested of the Solicitor-General an undertaking to the court that the hanging would not take place before the matter could be considered properly on the following Tuesday. The Solicitor-General knew his political masters too well to give that undertaking at his own discretion so the Chief Justice said ” We make this order solely to uphold the inherent authority of this court [NB. not in any statute or constitution but "inherent" and the CJ was privately rather contemptuous of the senior judge who had sat until late the night before] to preserve the subject matter of an appeal” and he pronounced the injunctive order.

    Then you would also be aware of the failures of governments before the courts in the vital matter of taxes. Of course you can say as a trite truism that there is no pure independent judicial or legal system any more than there can be anything close to pure free trade but that is to prefer trivia to substance. As with most of our virtues we have to put up with aspirations and striving for the ideal.

    And again you have brought in the word “virtue” again that seems to me to show that we are engaged in a dialogue where our arguments are never destined to meet on the same ground. Assuming a judge is not bribable and – a problem here for Chinese judges – not going to be influenced in his decision by anything communicated outside the court hearing or by the authority or status of counsel, where does “virtue” come in?

    The law says A is in the right but I judge that he is a bad man so I shall find against him!?!

    A and B have a dispute over whether building work complied with specs and should be paid for or whether it is so defective that only rebuilding will suffice. Scope for “virtue”??!!!

    A is quite right that no tax is legally payable on his large windfall gain but we think a virtuous man would have given up half the gain to the state if not to a charity – which he has not claimed….

    If you really know the connotations of “virtue” in the Chinese legal context can you say how it affects outcomes in practice? How does it differ from traditions of judges having to hear both/all parties and sllow them to develop their cases fully, that judges must have no personal interest in tbe outcome, that they follow carefully worked out sentencing guidelines etc? It does seem that they effectively take orders from the party.

    I ask about the concept because I can imagine the explosive derision of the average Australian barrister if he went to the swearing in of the new CJ and heard him/her say that if he wanted anything to be remembered of his tenure he would like it to be that it was marked by Virtue’s elevation as a judicial principle and as a concept whose time had come for deep embedding in our traditions. After all what would you make of that? Humbug surely? So why not also the Chinese version that you favour?

    BTW did you know that the several Australian Bars were so keen on independence of the judiciary that they staunchly opposed promotion of judges within one jurisdiction where it could be seen as a reward for siding with the State as litigant? True, though sadly not observed now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    My family, for three generations, are almost all lawyers–corporate, family and government law–and I have seen amongst them the collegial antipathy of which you speak and their delight when they manage to get the (especially Commonwealth) government to back down.

    But none of their cases impinged upon core government interests, like winning elections or pleasing powerful hegemons. At that level, cases are shunted to safe hands and the required verdict is returned. Always.
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  162. @TT

    On GR v. Rudd on China, however, I suspect both should be found wanting as GR seems to be starry eyed about China, ignoring the well proven status of Chinese, including their leaders not least, as fallible human beings.
     
    While we don't know what happens between your encounter with Mr Roberts that make you commented on his credibility as doubtful, do you have any to share on what he has writen so far in unz about China that you think is not factual or doubtful to say he has starry eye?

    So far i have find his articles & comments are quite factual with reference sources without putting in too much personal judgement. That make him one of most credible writer in unz.

    I take it that you are Chinese. I am glad you said that, as it confirms what I thought.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT
    You are wise old man to judge thing according to facts, & who benefits behind. So your handle is deceiving ;)

    If the West msm said a enemy bad, i very much doubtful. If they said a enemy good, its very much trustable. But one wise Chinese commenter in unz taught me to be better, look who is benefiting when West msm are praising widely in well orchestrated effort(for Zhu Rongji bold joining of WTO under most Unequal Terms).

    Yes, West msm used to praise Venezuela when they give all oil biz to them, even make Venezuelan winner of World Beauty Pageants frequently to blind them with pride. When oil is nationalized, its a national threat to be invaded & embargo.…a shithole of food shortage when its proven offshore oil & gas is larger than Saudi & Russia.

    So are much West praising of Gorbachev & Yeltsin for Russia 1990's disaster, Libya Gaddafi as UK best trusted ally, Iraq Saddam as best check to Iran tyranny,…and India Modi is now drunken in American lovely praising of next No1 Superpower demoncrap country, awaiting to be slaughtered when fatten enough.
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  163. @Wizard of Oz
    You are conflating balance of payments with balance of trade. I don't blame you being confused by that Martin Feldstein article which wouldn't open on the FT site but I got in pdf form elsewhere. I think Feldstein should have reread ot and self-edited it to remove some, to put it politely, opaque statements.

    To deny the possibility of currrncy manipulation - or equivalent protective measures - can cause damage to or in the non- manipulator (but also maybe the manipulator) is plain wrong. It's not just a case of American workers losing their jobs or being paid less because their employers can't compete with Chinese imports (that many of their employed countrymen enjoy) the same is true of Germany's currency being undervalued and putting Greeks out of jobs because it is the one size fits all Euro and the Germans are so much more efficient that they have much the same cost advantage as China vis a vis America.

    It seems inevitable that lower paid Americans are going to do worse than the high skill-high paid as their smarter compatriots decide not to give up the advantages of global freeish trade. And, as good Christians, although age and geographical location may make adjusting a bit hard, are they going to begrudge higher incomes for poor people in developing countries? :-)

    Thanks for picking that up. I’ve wondered about it ever since I first read it.

    Could you correct it along the lines you suggest, so that it reads as clearly as it should? I don’t have the background to do that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Very flattering. You remind me of the time a junior member of my extended family, beginning on his PhD research, asked me for help with differential equations.... All shall be done when I reliably access parallel universes for parallel lives (or should I bank on reincarnation for a more traditional miltiplication of experiences?) :-)
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  164. @Wizard of Oz
    Please don't spoil your good stuff by asserting so positively more than you know. Your "in all times and places the legal process is subordinate to the political and it is hypocritical [sic, I think you probably meant 'self-deceiving'] for the oligarchs to claim otherwise. There is no such thing as an independent legal system [I think you mean judiciary, don't you, although an ethical legal profession is vital too] anywhere" is rhetorical overkill that conveys very little truth of any value.

    I can assure you that lawyers in your country of origin, particularly the independent Bars, take great pride in collegiality and boring it up governments in their many manifestations, and big business and unions. I recall well the pride felt when the government was determined on a hanging (it got one last one four years later) and successive judges had refused applications for injunctions, eventually at 9.30 pm on the Tuesday before the 8 am Thursday hanging, after which three judges of the High Court of Australia fitted in a Wednesday morning Melbourne hearing before departure for the Sydney sittings of the court and the Chief Justice requested of the Solicitor-General an undertaking to the court that the hanging would not take place before the matter could be considered properly on the following Tuesday. The Solicitor-General knew his political masters too well to give that undertaking at his own discretion so the Chief Justice said " We make this order solely to uphold the inherent authority of this court [NB. not in any statute or constitution but "inherent" and the CJ was privately rather contemptuous of the senior judge who had sat until late the night before] to preserve the subject matter of an appeal" and he pronounced the injunctive order.

    Then you would also be aware of the failures of governments before the courts in the vital matter of taxes. Of course you can say as a trite truism that there is no pure independent judicial or legal system any more than there can be anything close to pure free trade but that is to prefer trivia to substance. As with most of our virtues we have to put up with aspirations and striving for the ideal.

    And again you have brought in the word "virtue" again that seems to me to show that we are engaged in a dialogue where our arguments are never destined to meet on the same ground. Assuming a judge is not bribable and - a problem here for Chinese judges - not going to be influenced in his decision by anything communicated outside the court hearing or by the authority or status of counsel, where does "virtue" come in?

    The law says A is in the right but I judge that he is a bad man so I shall find against him!?!

    A and B have a dispute over whether building work complied with specs and should be paid for or whether it is so defective that only rebuilding will suffice. Scope for "virtue"??!!!

    A is quite right that no tax is legally payable on his large windfall gain but we think a virtuous man would have given up half the gain to the state if not to a charity - which he has not claimed....

    If you really know the connotations of "virtue" in the Chinese legal context can you say how it affects outcomes in practice? How does it differ from traditions of judges having to hear both/all parties and sllow them to develop their cases fully, that judges must have no personal interest in tbe outcome, that they follow carefully worked out sentencing guidelines etc? It does seem that they effectively take orders from the party.

    I ask about the concept because I can imagine the explosive derision of the average Australian barrister if he went to the swearing in of the new CJ and heard him/her say that if he wanted anything to be remembered of his tenure he would like it to be that it was marked by Virtue's elevation as a judicial principle and as a concept whose time had come for deep embedding in our traditions. After all what would you make of that? Humbug surely? So why not also the Chinese version that you favour?

    BTW did you know that the several Australian Bars were so keen on independence of the judiciary that they staunchly opposed promotion of judges within one jurisdiction where it could be seen as a reward for siding with the State as litigant? True, though sadly not observed now.

    My family, for three generations, are almost all lawyers–corporate, family and government law–and I have seen amongst them the collegial antipathy of which you speak and their delight when they manage to get the (especially Commonwealth) government to back down.

    But none of their cases impinged upon core government interests, like winning elections or pleasing powerful hegemons. At that level, cases are shunted to safe hands and the required verdict is returned. Always.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I think you could be thinking of the appointment of Royal Commissioners and heads of judicial inquiries, though I can recall partisans saying in substance "what on earth did they think appointing someone with his ego meant that the inquiry was in safe hands?".

    The Costigan Inquiry appointed by the Fraser government into, from memory, thuggish waterfront unions, destroyed the government when Frank Costigan QC, of known Labor background pursued rabbits down a hole to where he found "bottom of the harbour" tax schemes.

    It is worth remarking that the Bar and judiciary have been do anti-political that it was early made a rule by several superior courts no that no sitting (as opposed to retired) judges would accept appointment to government inquiries. I think one of the earlier such decisions occurred in Victoria after the very senior judge, Sir Charles Lowe, had been Royal Commissioner inquiring into something about the Communist Party. I suppose it led to publuc abuse of a judge without it being punishable (then anyway) as contempt of court.
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  165. @Godfree Roberts
    Thanks for picking that up. I've wondered about it ever since I first read it.

    Could you correct it along the lines you suggest, so that it reads as clearly as it should? I don't have the background to do that.

    Very flattering. You remind me of the time a junior member of my extended family, beginning on his PhD research, asked me for help with differential equations…. All shall be done when I reliably access parallel universes for parallel lives (or should I bank on reincarnation for a more traditional miltiplication of experiences?) :-)

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    I love the framing of government's charges to Royal Commissions. That's where the artfulness comes in!
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  166. @Godfree Roberts
    My family, for three generations, are almost all lawyers–corporate, family and government law–and I have seen amongst them the collegial antipathy of which you speak and their delight when they manage to get the (especially Commonwealth) government to back down.

    But none of their cases impinged upon core government interests, like winning elections or pleasing powerful hegemons. At that level, cases are shunted to safe hands and the required verdict is returned. Always.

    I think you could be thinking of the appointment of Royal Commissioners and heads of judicial inquiries, though I can recall partisans saying in substance “what on earth did they think appointing someone with his ego meant that the inquiry was in safe hands?”.

    The Costigan Inquiry appointed by the Fraser government into, from memory, thuggish waterfront unions, destroyed the government when Frank Costigan QC, of known Labor background pursued rabbits down a hole to where he found “bottom of the harbour” tax schemes.

    It is worth remarking that the Bar and judiciary have been do anti-political that it was early made a rule by several superior courts no that no sitting (as opposed to retired) judges would accept appointment to government inquiries. I think one of the earlier such decisions occurred in Victoria after the very senior judge, Sir Charles Lowe, had been Royal Commissioner inquiring into something about the Communist Party. I suppose it led to publuc abuse of a judge without it being punishable (then anyway) as contempt of court.

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  167. @Wizard of Oz
    Very flattering. You remind me of the time a junior member of my extended family, beginning on his PhD research, asked me for help with differential equations.... All shall be done when I reliably access parallel universes for parallel lives (or should I bank on reincarnation for a more traditional miltiplication of experiences?) :-)

    I love the framing of government’s charges to Royal Commissions. That’s where the artfulness comes in!

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  168. myself says:
    @CalDre

    US loved to have China in WTO so that it can rape China outright with unequal terms.
     
    The only ones getting raped are American workers. Those who benefit: the globalist oligarchs, the Chinese Communist Party, and the Chinese worker.

    Again, you are trying to make propaganda about pointless things. Try to look at the forest, with objectivity. How have Chinese living standards changed since 2001, and how have American? This alone answers all the questions. Now again if you want to go into details, the two primary mechanisms that have been used to accomplish this is Chinese currency manipulation and Chinese intellectual property theft.

    But also there are constant WTO rules violations. I have had many clients who have tried to do business in China and I know how China constantly violates rules. Anybody doing business with China knows this, regardless of you writing utter nonsense about "Opium wars".


    US is never a charitable or merciful country but lead by vultures bankers & greedy MIC
     
    Agreed, but these bankers and MIC are not Americans, they are globalist oligarchs. They don't care one iota about Americans. I agree that they are evil, just look at my post history on Unz, I am constantly critiquing them harshly as I believe they are traitors to America and Americans.

    But that does not make your claims about trade true.

    How have Chinese living standards changed since 2001, and how have American? This alone answers all the questions.

    I have to disagree that it serves to clarify issues.

    I know someone who will never enter into business and so, never be rich. His reason? He feels exploited and cheated if/when his prospective partner in business stands to make more money than him. In fact, he feels cheated when his prospective partner makes ANY MONEY AT ALL.

    In any business transaction, the profits to be gained are rarely, if ever, shared equally, down to the last cent. One partner will make money, and the other one may make more, or make less.

    I tried to make the point that the key consideration was this: If you enter into business together, do both of you HAVE MORE individually as a result, than you would both otherwise have if you had not entered? As the party who stands to, for example, make somewhat less money, would you rather not enter into business and thereby make ZERO money?

    Back to the general economic relationship between developed (United States) and developing (China) economies: Of course the profits will not accrue equally – in high-tech collaboration, the United States benefited from China’s low-cost educated labor, and so reaped greater rewards than China. In low-tech exports, China in turn sold to America’s richer middle class, so profiting more than America.

    In all honesty, it cannot be said that America as whole is not richer and better-off having traded with China. We are, in objective absolute terms, much better off than if we had not.

    The real problem is how the profits and wealth have been distributed in America – meaning largely to the upper corporate ranks, with almost nothing for the middle management and employees.

    THAT is a problem with America’s business structure, for which we cannot blame China.

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  169. TT says:
    @Anon
    Why are only a limited class of North Koreans able to enjoy the good things available there? Good hospitals you say - but for whom?

    Good question, how do we know what’s happening inside NK as we are fed with Western msm fake news since birth, that contradicted with everyone who visited those countries personally, incl a WHO Secretary. I believe those individual visitors are more reliable than Western mouthpiece msm.

    Visit yourself to find out like i did for some, such as China which has been foretold to collapse under own debts with failed debt fueled bubble economic over 30yrs by numerous lying West & Indian shameless scholars.

    A constant propaganda hyping on next superpower prosperous demoncraptic India that becoming more Hindustan shithole with time. If you read my comment history, im very critical on India corrupted ruling class & its millions of shameless cheating Indians, but very much loving the country rich civilization that surpass China history, & their beautiful rural people.

    A very peaceful Myanmar is been smeared with fake news of forced labour, rampant rapes & killing & Rohingya crisis just because its so resource rich and pro-China.

    Similarly, peaceful Sri Lanka is been sabotaged with West & India supported Tamil TTE terrorism & Muslim riots, etc.

    In some articles, Cuba was found to has the best sustainable Western medical care & free training for global doctors, and flourishing organic farming under crushing embargo.

    Iran is one of tech powerhouse & secular country subverted by West for not willing to be subjugated. And blame their econmic hardship on their gov instead of west sanction.

    So is Venezuela with world largest proven oil gas is been told so bad people are eating their pets & riot over loaf of bread. Africa most prosperous Libya, oil rich Iraq, all oil resource rich countries are under attacked, incl Russia. Afghanistan has the highest ore resources for lithium battery, and CIA’s world largest opium agri plantation.

    A secular Syria where Christian & non Muslims get to live harmony with Muslims has become Assad must go terrorist proxy war, after Assad refused to accept a US Israel bad deal of pipe across Syria to link Israel(stolen offshore gas field) & Saudi gas fields to EU, and a discovery ofpotential super oil gas field) … long list of fake news smeared & sabotaged countries.

    Globalresearch.ca has some quite interesting articles on all above, you can search by keywords. Im in slow internet data plan over phone, living in 3rd world now, take too much time to list for you.

    It seem always turn out to be a propaganda lies in my personal visits, and those countries make so poor/disorder by West oil & military vultures embargo on humanity ground, that these countries leaders are either trying to preserve their little resources for their elites, or under uncontrollable corruption breed by poverty & Western sabotaging.

    In our country, high level healthcare is basic for even every poor, but the wealthy still get super private hospital care, isn’t it. Similarly, in these poor countries, basic healthcare are only affordable by the rich mostly, except NK which is very remarkable to provide high level healthcare for all according to WHO.

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  170. TT says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I don't think he's making a "Western mistake". Count TT as a junior or middling officer in a Chinese Consulate, probably in the US. He's received some of his education in an English speaking country.

    Im not from China, which make my views & comment more objective on China, West, Jp, Korea & India. But my interest in current affairs & wide traveling in global business & works provide me a slightly better perspective than average worker. And internet is the wonderful key to access abundant independent info.

    I can never be qualified in China Imperial Exam, its too competitive with talents from 1.4B, let alone becoming their consulate official de creame of crops.

    Although after graduating, my country gov official did offered me a foreign affair job after interviewing me for a technical post, as they found lacking in such candidates. But i turned down, didn’t realize it was one of most profitable job simply by a middle man for illicit deals like weapon & banned goods utilizing wide contacts & diplomat privilege.

    And i prefered to live a lay back life in down under Oz where property & cars are dirt cheap, with good welfare & nice people under sunny beach front house with my own yatch, not as gloomy cold in UK or crime infested US. But after getting my residency & living for some time, i found itch to move on, otherwise we are Oz mate…so im on 3rd world exploring…oh those damn shitholes juz so interesting…. hehehehe

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  171. TT says:
    @unpc downunder
    Disagree, China exports a lot more to America than vice versa. Tariffs will hit some US companies hard, but overall China will suffer more than the US. Also, remember that many Chinese exports to US are products produced for European and Japanese companies. Germany and Japan will probably be hit harder than the US, which is why they're getting alarmed. If the US had a tariff war with Latin America it might be a different story, as the US has an export surplus with Latin America, but you can't loose a trade war with a country you have a big trade deficit with.

    You're making the western mistake of looking at this from the perspective of individual actors rather than nations.

    but you can’t loose a trade war with a country you have a big trade deficit with.

    You’re making the western mistake of looking at this from the perspective of individual actors rather than nations.

    We can always agree to disagree. But you are blinded by US msm & simple algebra. Why Trumps is trying to soften down after Down jones wiped out more than tariff can get, while China is in unusual high posture, determined to teach tyranny US a very painful lesson, as its said a war at all cost like Korean war to stop future tyranny blackmail & geopolitical harassment.

    According to China trade figures, actual China exports to US is only high 200+B, vs US inflated trade figure 500+B. The different come from US is using arrived shore figure that include all US export parts & freight/insurance gross cost. China is working on actual local value added, ie leaving shore less imported US components. So actual deficit is not as wide, and EU, Jp, Korea will take most of blunt in high tech goods tariff.

    Take iphone as eg in a article i read, you have most parts imported eg from US(Qualcomm Snapdragon Cpu), Jp ICs, Korea memory & screen, etc. Taiwan Foxconn simply assembled, added value is meagre less than $1, add other China local parts $5… total cost say $300. Apple is said to make 70% gross margin out of $1000 price tag selling in China too, while china get less than 1~5%. And China is largest market next to US if you lose it.

    In a simplified eg of 2way 20% tariff, means imported US components get hit & inflated iphone cost to say $330. Arriving US 20% tariff, iphone bcom say $400, selling at $1100. US consumer pay extra $100, Trumps get extra tax revenue $66, so do China get $30 to offset other loss. Who lost in iphone tariff?

    You simply have no alternative consider China is having world entire low-mid level supply chains, go Walmart do a stock check.

    It will take US at least 5~10yrs to reestablish its manufacturing capacity even murkans willing to bite dust by accepting China salary, but still lack China economic of scale & hyper efficiency, which as Steve Jobs said, jobs aren’t returning to US.

    http://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20120123/apples-jobs-to-obama-jobs-arent-coming-back-to-us

    Sure EU & Jp, Korea will get hit badly as i highlighted too, as they contributed much components in this globalization supply chain. And they will be next target after China trade war. They are all in slow economic crisis with high unemployment if you research abit.

    China is providing 30% global growth, if it stalled, everyone goes down. These people are smart enough to know, Trumps or Xi is better bet for future.

    And China has yet to pull its lever on financial, service sector, FDI that US has vast surplus with China. China plan to make bigger cake, US think zero sum, its a trade war US will lost, very miserable & catastrophe, consider every parameters & China war chess of $4T reserve with 60% saving rate that immune it from worst case US zero trade for decade.

    But this trade war & Petrol Yuan are more than struggle between China & US people as Chinese rational leaders have no hate to their customers-US people, its a existential fight between China-Russia alliance with Warstreet Bankers owned Fed who uses Anglozionist controlled US as mightiest machine to control global money (free Petrol USD printing) & resources under unipolar. If China win, benevolent Prez Xi will save the world & roll out a fair term multipolar world, otherwise all ended as slave.

    If i have time will translate one interesting article: who is actually behind all these sudden hysteria war against Russia & China, that in history every Potus who dare resist get either killed or impeached.

    And US is having deficit trade with hundred of countries not out of coincident, it is to export out its Fed free printing USD while import cheap products to keep hyper inflation off, with excess USD flow back to US treasury & investment to finance endless lavish life live on debts. Your budget deficit will soon reach $1T p. a., piling up on $21T debts with astronomical interest payment, living beyond a means to pay back.

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  172. TT says:
    @foolisholdman
    I take it that you are Chinese. I am glad you said that, as it confirms what I thought.

    You are wise old man to judge thing according to facts, & who benefits behind. So your handle is deceiving ;)

    If the West msm said a enemy bad, i very much doubtful. If they said a enemy good, its very much trustable. But one wise Chinese commenter in unz taught me to be better, look who is benefiting when West msm are praising widely in well orchestrated effort(for Zhu Rongji bold joining of WTO under most Unequal Terms).

    Yes, West msm used to praise Venezuela when they give all oil biz to them, even make Venezuelan winner of World Beauty Pageants frequently to blind them with pride. When oil is nationalized, its a national threat to be invaded & embargo.…a shithole of food shortage when its proven offshore oil & gas is larger than Saudi & Russia.

    So are much West praising of Gorbachev & Yeltsin for Russia 1990′s disaster, Libya Gaddafi as UK best trusted ally, Iraq Saddam as best check to Iran tyranny,…and India Modi is now drunken in American lovely praising of next No1 Superpower demoncrap country, awaiting to be slaughtered when fatten enough.

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  173. Anonymous[295] • Disclaimer says:

    ”That’d be fukusI[ndia] M.O. down to a T…

    fukusI have been stalking Chinese investments all over the world, sabotaging it with Arm twisting, disinfo, FF, terrorism, you name it,
    every dirty tricks in CIA’s book.”

    You mean indians have been doing all that? Where did you get this disinfo from? Just curious.

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  174. Anonymous[295] • Disclaimer says:

    denk,

    by ‘fukusI’ you mean indians?. I think you are deliberately trying to create more and more enmity between indians and chinese.

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  175. TT says:
    @Godfree Roberts
    the Chinese approach to rule of laws that it must always degenerate into tricksterism unless it is subject to rule of virtue. That's what the CCP is supposed to provide and Xi is expected to exemplify.

    Does he?

    “I would put him in the Nelson Mandela’s class of persons. A person with enormous emotional stability who does not allow his personal misfortunes or sufferings affect his judgment. In other words, he is impressive.” Lee Kwan Yew, Founder of Singapore.
    http://world.time.com/2007/11/19/chinas_nelson_mandela/

    If we observed carefully, every world leaders are vocal in their every major events or policies, except China Prez Xi.

    In most tense moment of South China Seas nuke confrontation with USN strike groups, to India Donglan confrontation last year, and current trade war, Prez Xi remained unusually silent to go about his domestic affairs as usual. Only relevant office spoke persons make announcement.

    But he will spoke at length in various international events with well crafted speech promoting on peace, shared destiny, fair terms multipolar world, go green & globalization. And he spent more times in addressing domestic issues & inspiring his people than foreign affairs.

    Such is Prez Xi exuding great confident & stable emotion, revealing he has everything in his control with his very capable team, to focus only on his domestic restructuring & global grand plan.

    LKY didn’t live to see these, to exclaim Prez Xi is more than Nelson Mandela, may be half way of Deng XP, a class that required multiple unusual crisis and wars to attain.

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