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America’s greatest strategic mind of global recognition, Alfred Thayer Mahan, in his seminal work The Influence of Sea Power upon History saw the World Ocean and activity in it as the foundation for national greatness and power. The pivot of this greatness was a powerful navy. Through Mahan, the Theory of Navalism reached American elites late in 19th Century. As Byron King noted:

Mahan’s book struck the highest levels of the governing classes like a bolt of lightning and created a tempest of intellectual upheaval not just within the U.S. Navy, but throughout the broader American (and overseas) political, economic, and industrial system.

It was, however, not Navalism as a theory which contributed to both intellectual and, eventually, social upheaval—it was the industrial revolution and the technological paradigm that revolution created, which propelled ideas of naval blockades and of the decisive battles of large fleets to the forefront of global strategic thought. The confirmation of the correctness of Mahan’s vision didn’t have to wait for too long—on 28 May 1905, in the straits of Tsushima, Russia’s Baltic Sea Squadron of Admiral Zinovyi Rozhesvensky was almost completely obliterated by the Japanese naval force of Admiral Togo in what amounted to one of the most lop-sided battles in history. Russia’s de jure defeat in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05 became inevitable in the wake of Tsushima, which became in Russia a euphemism for a catastrophe. Recriminations and, eventually the First Russian Revolution followed as the result of this military-political humiliation. This outcome also cemented a central postulate of Navalism—large, expensive fleets became the main force which embodied both national prestige and safety for the trade of the nation which possessed them. The era of battleships and cruisers unfolded but so did the era of submarines.

The explosive technological and doctrinal development of fleets, both naval and commercial, followed. Also Mahan’s ideas that the old concept of Guerre’ de Course, of commerce raiding, simultaneously matured and reached industrial proportions, which would see massive naval battles on the Shipping Lanes of Communications (SLOC) during WW I and, especially so, during WW II. The Safety of SLOCs and maritime Choke Points became defining factors in Western strategic thinking of the 20th Century. Nowhere was this more so than in Great Britain and, especially, in the newly emerging superpower of the United States. The World Island is how Admiral Elmo Zumwalt defined the United States of the 20th Century. The post WW II US Navy became more than just a concentrated material expression of American national pride and of industrial-technological prowess; it became the guarantor of the safety of those numerous SLOCs and Choke Points on which American prosperity depended then and continues to depend even more so today.

Enter the 21st Century. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US Navy lost its only modern peer—the Soviet Navy. Today, the US Navy reigns supreme over the vast spaces of the World Ocean, thus making American maritime trade secure. For now it also controls the world’s maritime trade which amounts to almost 90 percent of all global trade. A fleet of more than 62 000 commercial vessels every day carries millions tons of cargo, ranging from crude oil and ore to washing machines and cars, between hundreds of ports, thus generating trillions of dollars in capital movement every month. It seems that the United States with her magnificent navy is living proof of the old geopolitical truism that the one who controls the World Ocean controls the world’s trade, and thus controls the World. This was true with the United States being the most productive and largest industrial economy in the post-World War Two world. This is not the case anymore. To be sure, the United States still hugely depends on and still controls most SLOCs, but this time the pattern is different and is changing constantly.

China’s ever-growing manufacturing capacity entered the game—the times when the United States was shipping massive amounts of finished goods and of materiel both to Europe and elsewhere around the world are over. Of course, the United States still produces many finished goods, some of them of a world-class quality, such as commercial aircraft, processors, generators, and engines, to name just a few; but in 2017 the United States posted an astonishing 344 billion dollars trade deficit with China. Today, the US controlled SLOCs in the Asia-Pacific area operate as supply lines for the US internal market, shipping monthly tens of billions of dollars’ worth of the finished consumer goods to the United States, filling the shelves of American Walmarts, Targets and Costcos with mostly Chinese-manufactured TVs, home appliances, computers, Smart phones, furniture, and articles of clothing. The United States today depends on China for its own everyday consumer needs. This dependence is unprecedented historically and is a powerful reason for questioning both America’s internal and international trade policies. Today, trade deficits of such a scale are among the most important drivers behind contemporary geopolitical upheaval.

The United States is in a trade hole and that hole is extremely deep. Yet, while the US-Chinese trade is the talk of the town and is extremely important in explaining contemporary geopolitical dynamics, and an inevitable US-Chinese trade war, a much larger but less talked about global scenario is beginning to emerge and it has everything to do with the fact of China’s (One) Belt and Road initiative aka the New Silk Road. A lot has been said about this massive project, most of it is positive and it is derived from the fact of the seemingly much fairer and beneficial, for all parties involved, nature of it. This is true, especially against the background of the mayhem and destruction the United States has unleashed around the world. Yet, the Chinese project is far more than just an exercise in charity which it certainly is not. China, with her excessive industrial capacity, is in it for a much bigger prize than the United States, with its sluggish consumer market and declining standard of living. Nor are Africa or Eurasian subcontinent the targets, although often placed in the center of Chinese considerations. The name of the Chinese game is Europe. Without Europe, the One Belt and Road initiative becomes merely an expansion into large but mostly poor markets in Asia. The Philippines or Indonesia cannot compare to the advanced economies of Germany or France. Europe, not just the EU, is a different game. With her almost 750 million population and a GDP larger than that of China or the US, Europe is the only truly wealthy market left in the world. China desperately needs access to this market both through the land bridge and SLOCs and it is here where the geopolitical dance of the century becomes extremely intricate. Several important facts must be considered before drawing any conclusions on the mid to long-term developments:

1. The United Stated posts huge trade deficits not only with China. The US is in a deep 56 billion dollars trade hole with Germany in 2017. It consistently posts trade deficits with most European nations from France to Finland and Russia. With the EU alone, the US trade deficit is more than 135 billion dollars. With the exception of military hardware, commercial aircraft and some electronics, the US is simply not competitive in Europe. China is and precisely in that sector where the United States produces next to nothing—consumer goods. The Europeans are aware of this, as they are apprehensive of China’s One Belt and Road. Speaking on January 10, 2018 France’s President Macron was explicit in his description of the Silk Road:

“We must come up with a common position at the European level…We can’t disregard this initiative. It would mean dealing with its consequences and would be a profound strategic mistake.”

Europe does feel a need to protect her strategic sectors and those are the ones where China still lags considerably—the high-tech machine building sectors.

2. With China securing the safety of her strategic rear and crucial resources by entering into all but an full-fledged military-political alliance with Russia, China seems poised to complete the Silk Road’s land-bridge, a small part of which will go through Russia. Modern transportation technologies, including high-speed rail—the exact field in which China is one of the global leaders—may significantly change the matrix of goods’ flow and, indeed, interconnect Eurasia with a highly developed railroad network. In fact, the work is already in progress. But here is the catch.

3. Commercial marine transport still remains the most efficient way of delivering large quantities of goods—a term “Road” stands for SLOCs in a One Belt and Road initiative. China needs this Road which connects her ports with the Mediterranean and it is here where all illusions about this Chinese initiative must be dispelled.

There is a lot of talk about the Russia-Chinese alliance, as well as about Russia being a junior partner in such an alliance. All this is a result of not seeing the very serious real factors behind the new Silk Road. First, China’s initiative is not that beneficial to Russia. In fact, it goes contrary to Russia’s own plans for creating a new Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU). Russia has its own designs on large portions of the markets China sees as her own. Russia, dominating Eurasia’s heartland, has a shot at a serious upgrade of its own role in this plan and that is what Russia is doing already. One of the major reasons is the fact that the US Navy and the Chinese Navy (PLAN) are simply in different leagues. One may say, and justly so, a lot of negative things about the US Navy, which does face a whole host of large technological and operational problems, but there can be no denial that it still remains the most powerful naval force in history. It is precisely this force which can, if push comes to shove, stop any maritime trade in almost any part of the world. The “almost” qualifier is extremely important here.

One also may say that this is an unrealistic scenario, while in reality it is anything but. The Chinese Navy (PLAN) was in construction overdrive for a decade now and it built a large number of surface combat ships, some of which on paper look impressive. By 2030 it also plans to have four aircraft carriers in its order of battle. China is also building naval bases in Pakistan, which is prudent once one considers that a large portion of this “Road” passing through the Indian Ocean. But the question remains—in the case of an inevitable US-China trade war, which may go hot on “neutral” territory, will the Chinese Navy (PLAN) be able to defend its SLOCs from the interdiction by the US Navy?

The answer is an unequivocal no. China may already have a very serious A2/AD (Anti-Access/Area Denial) capability which would deters the US Navy and make its life difficult in the South China Sea, but blue water operations are a completely different game. The US Navy today and in the foreseeable future has an ace up its sleeve, and that is a world-class, massive nuclear attack submarine force which, considering the US Navy’s powerful surface element, will not allow PLAN to defend its SLOCs. While Mahan’s ideas seem to be moribund, they may yet see their resurrection in the form of a large fleet standoff with global implications.Neither now nor in the foreseeable future will China be able to overcome the US Navy’s technological underwater superiority, and eventually the Chinese will also need to contend with India’s view of the Indian Ocean as her own internal lake. India also sees the Chinese naval presence in the Indian Ocean as a threat to herself. It is not surprising therefore to see increased cooperation between the US and Indian Navies. The PLAN is not ready to face such odds, especially when one considers the rather unimpressive technological reality of PLAN’s submarine force—this inferiority in technology and numbers will not be overcome any time soon. In plain language, in the open ocean the US Navy can and, most likely, will sink the Chinese Navy and that will mean the end of the Road, leaving onl the Belt to China.

In the end, the United States also needs Europe in a desperate attempt to revitalize own economy by utilizing the subjugated and split EU as the main market for US hydrocarbons and goods. The US doesn’t need Chinese competition in what has now become a struggle with enormously high stakes for the United States. After all, the memories of America as a global industrial powerhouse are still fresh among many. This, eventually, may move the United States into full confrontational mode with China and it is here where Russia will have her own very appealing strategic fork in the road, with some preparations for this fork now being made. The most important sign of this was Vladimir Putin’s rather startling revelation, during his October 2017 Valdai Forum conversation with youth, of his concern for the fate of white European Christian Civilization and his desire to preserve it.

The importance of this statement is difficult to overstate—much more is at stake than mere economic issues, however important. The Russian-Chinese alliance today seems unshakable and it will remain so for a while, but, contrary to some opinions, this is not because Russia needs China—certainly no more than China needs Russia. It is a situational global alliance, but it is also the economically natural alliance of two very close neighbors. China needs Russia’s resources, which Russia gladly sells to China, but China also needs Russia’s technology and she needs it desperately. Europe is also not just a market for China; it provides access to very advanced technologies, from nuclear power to transportation. But Europe and Russia are effectively the same culture, while China and Russia are not.

Putin at Valdai confirmed Russia as primarily a European nation and stressed the necessity to preserve it as such while preserving European, which is Western, culture as a whole—this is without doubt a most startling and profound political statement from a major global statesman in the 21st century. Preserving European culture is impossible without extremely advanced technology and advanced military systems, but that is what Russia has been building for the last decade. With Europe slowly coming to some understanding of the dead end of its cultural and economic policies, it is becoming clear that Europe sees neither China nor the United States as friends. Yet, even despite sanctions on Russia, the Q3 2017 reports saw a very significant, double digit, growth in trade between Russia and Germany, Netherlands, Italy, and Austria—hardly a sign of an isolated nation. The trade with China also grew tremendously by more than 20% and reached 84 billion dollars, with a target of 200 billion to be reached in the nearest future. There will be no cohesion to any Eurasian economic plans without Russia. The Russians know this, and so do the Chinese and the Americans.

More importantly, while it is primarily Russian or Russia-derived military technology which has already firmly secured the Chinese and Russian littorals and their near sea zones from any aggression, Russia holds yet another joker up her sleeve. It is the Northern Sea Route, which China supports enthusiastically. She has sound reasons for doing that. Unlike the Indian Ocean where PLAN would have to face the immensely powerful US Navy, Russia controls the Arctic and possesses a world-class A2/AD capability there, from advanced nuclear submarines, patrol and missile carrying aviation to a system of surveillance and reconnaissance sensors and coastal weapons, which make this route a desirable trade artery, also being much shorter than other maritime routes. The pace of Russian construction of ice-breakers for year-round operation of this ice route, now greatly mitigated by climate change, testifies to the fact that this route is already becoming an important economic and geopolitical factor.

The strategic implications are enormous—neither the US Navy, nor, for that matter any other navy, would be able to interdict Arctic SLOCs. Russia already has enough fire-power in the Arctic to ensure that passage is peaceful under any geopolitical conditions, while retaining, if need be, the capacity to shut it down. China has no such capabilities. But that is why China knows how to behave with Russia, which is also, together with Finland, a source of advanced technology for China not only militarily but for the use of this route. As The Diplomat noted:

In short, as long as solid Russia-China relations exist, the future of the Ice Silk Road is bright.

There are no reasons for China or Russia to spoil their relations, especially now when the agreement has been signed and a JV established for developing and building Russian-Chinese long-range wide-body CR 929 aircraft, which gives China access to world-class Russia’s commercial aircraft design and technologies. Russian-Chinese energy and infrastructure projects are also impressive and have huge potential for growth. In general, after all of these factors are considered, one can easily see that no matter how one plays with numbers or geography, Russia long ago secured both continental and maritime pivot positions for any major Eurasian project. She did that by playing to her many strengths. Then, by openly stating her European cultural roots, Russia has asserted her claim to be the very real bridge between Asia and Europe and she has all the necessary economic, technological and military wherewithal to support such a claim.

Will Europe get the signal? There are certainly many there who got it already but so did the United States, whose neocon cabal is going apoplectic when facing an unfolding geopolitical reality in which the United States may be simply bypassed as a player in Eurasia or, under highly desirable yet unattainable conditions, see herself reinventing herself as a major global productive player. How to do this? Alfred Thayer Mahan left no instructions and that could be a big problem. But if we all manage to avoid Mahan’s vision of large fleets blowing each-other out of the water with modern conventional let alone nuclear weapons, in their desperate fight to control shipping lanes of communications—this, I think, will fit the common sense of most people in Russia, the US, China and Europe. These four players must sort their problems out in a peaceful and civilized way—there is no other viable option. The only alternative is a bloody destructive triumph of Navalism.

 
• Category: Economics, Foreign Policy • Tags: American Military, China, Russia 
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  1. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I’m not sure what the authors point is, in this incredibly long and rambling post. Maybe it is just Russia Stronk!

    But it seems like the OP is just reiterating what a lot of people already know. Russia is a legitimate super power on its own. It does not need China to exist, but it needs China to defend itself from the West just as China needs Russia to defend itself against the West too. Only people who spend too much time on the internet care about who is considered a junior member or not when it comes to survival. Even Iran, who is not near as powerful as either Russia or China, is not a junior member because if any of the 3 nations fall the surviving 2 nations will be in big trouble.

    I don’t think China sees Europe as THE prize, as Europe also has economic issues as well. China and Russia see an integrated Eurasia as THE prize, as this will ensue a multi-polar world which benefits both nations.

    No doubt prying Europe and especially Germany away from the West is a big goal for both nations, but the real goal is controlling the “Heartland” a la Mackinder. As Mackinder noted, he who controls the “Heartland” controls the world.

    If the West loses control of the “Heartland”, controlling the sea lanes will have little value, as it would not be able to stymie trade to Russia or China, just to make it more expensive. So the OBOR is not meant to be a replacement against ocean trade, just insurance that if one artery is cut, another remains open.

    If China-Russia, or sorry Russia – China, is successful in making this connection; the West has no way of controlling either nation.

    Also, lol at quoting Macron with his Grannie wife. He is a total stooge for the West. So of course he is not going to like OBOR.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    , @Wally
  2. Beckow says:

    Russia might see itself as a part of Europe, but most Western Europeans have never seen it that way. So it is like knocking on a door that will never open. West has very publicly given up on its ‘white, Christian, European civilisation’ – we are at a tipping point when pure demographics will determine this. What common ‘culture’ can there be with massive population replacement? Maybe a new culture, but not what one would call ‘white, Christian, European’.

    An alternative is to save what can be saved, and find allies who will help. China, Central Asia and parts of Middle East can do that. Can multi-cultural and rapidly devolving Germany or France? By 2050, most of Western Europe will be a different culture than today. Will the ‘high-tech machine sector‘ will still be viable?

    Central Eastern Europe is caught in the middle – as they have been throughout most of history. They cannot on their own keep Europe European. Eventually for a number of reasons (including their own confused identities) they would succumb to what is ailing the West. The fish rots from its head, and if the rot is to stop, it would have to be done there. Looking at London, Paris, Berlin leaders and their hapless populations, I don’t see any will to do it. End of liners display very specific characteristics: moronic relativism, hedonism, absurdity, inability to understand that some rules of the game – or constraints – cannot be changed, and, of course, no children. Looking at Western Europe that behaviour is dominant, so what there to save?

  3. Transport by ships is more economical for large quantities of merchandise.
    Transport by train is more efficient for smaller quantities of merchandise.
    It is quicker and more efficient. This fact is particularly significant for merchandise like agricultural products with limited shelf life.
    That is very important in this case. Quick delivery from source to market plays very important role.

    • Replies: @CK
    , @Pisa2016
  4. ” These four players must sort their problems out in a peaceful and civilized way—there is no other viable option. The only alternative is a bloody destructive triumph of Navalism. ”
    They must, alas reality is otherwise.

    EU and NATO incorporated Ukraine, EU has a military paragraph in the association treaty with Ukraine.
    We, Dutch, voted by referendum against the treaty, it was ignored.

    The Brussels bureaucracy often mentions ‘soft power’, economic power, sanctions that the ordinary citizens of the EU member states and Russia pay for.
    Alas, for Brussels, NATO, neocons, Russia, as Iran, does not seem to be brought on its knees by soft power.
    And then, the usual solution, hard power.

    The situation now reminds me of that prior to WWI, Germany building the Berlin Baghdad railway, to be extended to Basra.
    The British felt threatened, ruling the waves might become ineffective for ruling the world.
    The Peking Petersburg railway, four days travel, I do hope it does not have the same effect as the Berlin Basra railway.

  5. polistra says:

    A less military way of seeing it: In 1500, Columbus and Magellan were looking for a maritime shortcut because the original Silk Road was long and dangerous from the Euro end. The result was 500 years of dominance for the sealanes, and dominance for the Americas. Now the new Silk Road is eliminating the need for a maritime shortcut by rebuilding a fast land route from Europe to the Orient. The Arctic route is basically a Russian coast-hugging route, hard for America to break.

    The new Silk Road is undoing Columbus and factoring out the Americas. When you have routes entirely within the Eurasian side of the world, there’s no need to cross the Atlantic and Pacific.

  6. Randal says:

    Fascinating stuff, thanks.

    The US regime’s record on foreign and military policy over the past three decades suggests that if there is a really stupid way to cock everything up for the US and for the world, they will find and enact it.

    The growth in importance of the northern sea route will make the Bering Strait ever more important. Presumably that’s where the US would look to interdict Chinese/Russian trade with Europe by this route in a war situation. Russia for sure could close it, but could it keep it open for trade against determined US opposition? Seems unlikely to me.

    However, that does mean going to war with Russia in order to strangle China, which ups the ante considerably for the kind of war with China US militarists would like to see. Though by the time the northern route is carrying enough traffic to make it significant, China’s military tech and strategic nuclear deterrent will likely be much more capable relative to the US than it is today anyway.

    [Typo in final para by the way - United Sates.]

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  7. The US response to OBOR is to pull at “loose threads” in various places along its paths. For example, the Rohingya in Myanmar have recently become an issue that requires “humanitarian” action, much like Syria years ago (when the gas attacks didn’t play in Peoria, suddenly ISIS became a thing), and recent flare-up in Iran, which seemingly also needed the world’s attention, unlike Ferguson or Baltimore. Pakistan is also on the radar. Having spent this much on a navy, the US will probably want to keep it relevant by any means possible.

  8. Nexus321 says:

    Personally I don’t think the US navy is as all powerful as the article suggests. Many weapons systems are dated, hulls are aging and new concepts like the Zumwalt do not seem to address any coherent strategic objective.

    Russian and Chinese missile technologies of all types underpinned by an symmetrical strategy are increasingly potent. Chinese subs are improving and their quality is rising. If they incorporate Russian technology that will be a game changer when allied to China’s industrial capacity. They will simply out build the US. You don’t have to be quite as good if you have a 5 or 10 to 1 advantage.

    No one has provided a sensible technical description as to how you would defeat a hypersonic Mach 8 missile. Not just one but two or three.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  9. WHAT says:

    Andrey, I wouldn`t call russian commercial airliner design world-class, not yet anyway. There is a strong claim to with the Yak-242(or however it will be called), including new engines, avionics, sertifications and host of other things you need to have a proper airliner, but so was SSJ, and where is it now?
    It can be argued that undeveloped support and logistics network was a reason for its failure, but then this problem endangers the new plane as well. Russians certainly understood at least some of the complexities, that is why Yakovlev is far more reserved when it comes to international market and goes for the home field advantage first.
    And then there is Airbus and/or Bombardier, which will probably jump into development partnership with chinese just as quickly as russians did for the right price.

    By the way, what do you think about the fresh LM claim that they now have some kind of hypersonic which was “impossible five years ago” because “computers”? I smell bullshit, considering how main impediment at such speeds is not control(otherwise nothing would ever return from orbit in one piece), but materials.

  10. Chinese one belt one road plan is all about China internal long term stability and maintaining order. Size of Chinese pòulation and lack of resources and internal market capacity require for China to go beyond her borders to find it all. Chinese are self centered people and whatever they are doing is for their own benefit. In recent decades they have managed to achieve large progress but inevitably without doing what they are doing now China is facing serious troubles at home. I believe they desperately need this plan to succeed, but I doubt and always stated so as Andrei also pointed that it is not on Russia long term interests to go along and just become China supplier. Russia strength lies within own development and return to improved Soviet experiment which proved to be great success. The dynamics of the past 25 years clearly show it is the case and liberal capitalism is not Russian way especially when it is clearly lost it. Putin thought of preserving white civilization also depends upon first and foremost internal success, strong population moral and confidence in future which would allow to reverse demographic down trend caused by liberal experiments. I also wonder if peaceful resolution of the problems stated by Andrei is possible. The issue lies within great divide in psychology between Anglo Saxon civilization and the rest. While Russia and China are clearly are rational players capable of compromise USA is not. It is zero SIM game and always was. The cause of this is national psych stemming from all of historical experiences that the rest share. Thus I wonder about possibility of any detente and whether Russia has learned Soviet experience of dealing with partners.Basically if detente is impossible then the only way is to set goals of cutting USA to her size. Considering USA no longer being what it used to be, her massive weaknesses and dependence upon financial arm and dollar status I see that aim can be achieved through cooperative way between China, Russia and other same minded countries to undermine USA dollar status and financial system via every way possible while keeping USA pinned and unable to act agressivly in military realm. Without this USA will no longer be a threat neither militarily nor economically. What is necessary is understanding that detente with USA is impossible and it is zero sum game. Btw, I would point at Tillerson statement that us military is going to stay in Syria as long as necessary until Assad gone. This the case of Russia achieving and declaring victory but USA just doing whatever USA wants and long term who knows Russian victory might prove hollow if USA allowed to act in this way. It is just who Russia is dealing with and I hope they realize it in Moscow and act accordingly.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  11. Excellent article.. I wish it had pointed out by name the corporate players:
    1. which Russian vs Chinese corporations stand to gain/lose from the OBOR initiative..
    2. which Western vs Chinese corporations stand to gain/lose from the OBOR initiative
    3. which Western vs Russian corporations stand to gain/lose as the OBOR initiative

    nearly all trade is done by corporations. but never are the data presented that allow to see that the corporate economic power far surpasses the governmental economic power. Grouping corporate activity by nation name no longer works..

    Anyway thanks for the article

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  12. Poor Vlad, don’t you know that the West will never truly accept Russia? The kind of Russophobic neo-Mcarthyism I see in America precludes the possibilty of reproachment in the long term.

  13. Z-man says:

    Yes too long of an article.
    Bottom line, the NEOCON/Globalist Cabal has pushed Russia away from the West and into the arms of China, more so than would be naturally done. It has pulled Russia and America farther apart which is sad because they are natural allies. Fortunately Germany, France and other European countries will buck this Anglo/Zionist plan by needing and wanting to deal with Russia.
    These nefarious deeds are mostly due to the hatred the ZioJudeo controlled Anglosphere has for Putin for reinforcing Russia’s Christian heritage.
    Putin Da!

    • Replies: @windwaves
  14. The name of the Chinese game is Europe. Without Europe, the One Belt and Road initiative becomes merely an expansion into large but mostly poor markets in Asia

    Game over! A shipment now sent from London goes to Beijing directly by rail.

     China is also building naval bases in Pakistan, which is prudent once one considers that a large portion of this “Road” passing through the Indian Ocean.

    Overlooked is the Chinese base at Djibouti now under construction. Very strategic indeed.

     In plain language, in the open ocean the US Navy can and, most likely, will sink the Chinese Navy and that will mean the end of the Road, leaving only the Belt to China.

    With all the sats following the carriers second by second, odds are the ss missles would take less than an hour to sink Mahan’s theory for good.

  15. Very instructive and fascinating paper !
    I was impressed by Putin’s statement concerning the fate of white European Christian Civilization; but it may be too late to save it.
    I am afraid that the Zionist Empire is after the destruction of the European Christian Civilization. They are motivated by a revenge feeling agaisnt the countries where they have been living for centuries.
    The New World Order, they are selling, is calling for the destruction of the Christian Civilization: the family, the traditional values and the many cultures of the various European people. They are behind these great invasions that Europe, today, is subject to. They expect these invasions to have on Europe a similar effect to what happened to the Roman Empire.
    Everyday, Europe is walking further down into hell.

    • Agree: Z-man, RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @gT
    , @Corvinus
  16. WHAT says:
    @George Orwell

    There is a distinction between european continental west and anglos. Continent totally can and wishes to have a proper deal with the Russia, while anglos are concerned only with their srategic safety through european controlled turmoil.

  17. @Nexus321

    Personally I don’t think the US navy is as all powerful as the article suggests. Many weapons systems are dated, hulls are aging and new concepts like the Zumwalt do not seem to address any coherent strategic objective.

    It is powerful enough to completely shutdown Indian Ocean SLOCs for China, especially due to US Navy’s submarine force–China has nothing comparable and will not have anything comparable for a very long time. The only way for China to have safe passage in Indian Ocean is to wait for the US to completely implode and from India to refuse to have a viable navy.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  18. Russia and China can hang together or hang separately. Western Europe can get with the New Silk Road and prosper or stick with the Anglo/Zio Empire and become a shit hole. Same can be said of the United States. Is it ironic that only Putin wants to preserve Western Christian culture? Americans could help by teaching their children it’s Okay to be white. Is it ironic that America made China great again? Thanks Bill Clinton. De-dollarization will ultimately bring down the evil empire. But with Israel in charge of American foreign policy it is possible that Washington will become the dog in the manger and just blow up the world so nobody else can have it.

    Thanks for the good read. I had thought Russian activity in the Arctic was just about the oil.

  19. @WHAT

    Andrey, I wouldn`t call russian commercial airliner design world-class, not yet anyway. There is a strong claim to with the Yak-242(or however it will be called), including new engines, avionics, sertifications and host of other things you need to have a proper airliner, but so was SSJ, and where is it now?

    1. SSJ and MC-21 are two completely different aircraft;
    2. SSJ is doing, actually, very well and is already testing new long-version. More than 130 of them are flying. So, it is by no means a failure, especially once the issue of post-sale service will be fully addressed.

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/102840/

    3. MC-21 is state-of-the-art with already 175 firm orders prepaid. It is the only aircraft of this class with a “black wing” and MC-21 from the inception was created as primarily domestic aircraft. PD-14 is a superb engine.

    And then there is Airbus and/or Bombardier, which will probably jump into development partnership with chinese just as quickly as russians did for the right price.

    Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Old story–Bombardier is not in the same league of long-range aircraft as this very Airbus and while they may try, Russia and China already have a JV and PD-35 is being in initial (design, technical task and requirements etc.) phase. China will develop fuselage, the hardest part–design and manufacturing of the wing and WTB went, obviously, to Russia.

    By the way, what do you think about the fresh LM claim that they now have some kind of hypersonic which was “impossible five years ago” because “computers”? I smell bullshit, considering how main impediment at such speeds is not control(otherwise nothing would ever return from orbit in one piece), but materials.

    The United States shot herself in the foot in terms of high speed (anti-shipping) cruise missiles in 1960s, first killing Regulus program for SLAM and then by continuing to develop carrier-based navy. Like in roulette, this weapons’ activity requires right bets from the get go–wrong bet, one loses. It is a well-known fact that the United States currently lags behind Russia in this field and this lag will continue for some time for both:

    1. Technological reasons–materials, fuels (very high impulse fuels are required) etc. required for M>5 missiles;
    2. Internal political squabble between US naval realists and massively influential and detrimental to naval development “trade union” of the carrier aviators and shipbuilders. Newport News is, certainly, not interested in losing CVN contracts, nor is the lobby in Congress.

  20. Beckow says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Chinese are self centered people and whatever they are doing is for their own benefit

    That can be said about almost any people. We all do what is for our own benefit.

    I agree that Anglo culture is incapable of compromise. They see ‘diplomacy’ as a continuation of war by other means and don’t see any deals as permanent or binding. One can see it in their constant projection of this behaviour on others. Since they see any agreement as valid only as long as it benefits them, they project this treachery on others. In the 19th century, native Americans were always described as ‘treacherous’, and the British colonials had a whole set of projected values on their subject populations, none good. The assumption and accusation was always that the other side cannot be trusted.

    The same projection of ‘treachery’ happens today. In the modern world it has made dealing with the West impossible. And yes, in situations like that the others learn that the only realistic way is to isolate the unreliable party. We are heading there.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  21. The U.S. is under Zionist control and this control has led America down the path to destruction via perpetual wars and sponsorship of terrorism and regime change via ISIS aka AL CIADA and thus the U.S. has been setup by her Zionist masters for takeover by the NWO.

    Like the Romans , the U.S. destruction is from within and without and this plus unlimited illegal immigration forced upon us by our Zionist masters and the unpayable debt, all of which are part and parcel of the Zionist NWO plan, have left America as a captive nation who would lose and all out war with Russia and or China or both.

    If anyone doubts this, read THE PROTOCOLS OF ZION.

  22. @Beckow

    Russia might see itself as a part of Europe, but most Western Europeans have never seen it that way. So it is like knocking on a door that will never open.

    “Door knockers” in Russia are actually a small minority. This is not how it works today. As much as I treat Limonov with a degree of irony, he wrote last year a very short and precise piece with a title “The Europe Now is Us (Russia)”, how Europeans (or whatever the populace it is today which used to be known as Europeans) is going to be dealing with this fact–it is strictly European affair. What’s left there culturally today can hardly be called Europe anymore. The real Europe which survives today is the one from the Western borders of Poland to Vladivostok. So, the point is that it may (and most likely will) become a completely 180 degrees turn in terms of who will be knocking on whose doors. E.g. many Western Europeans are already migrating to Hungary, Czechia, some to Russia–the migration will only increase. In fighting illness it is always a matter of a union between doctor and a patient. If a sick patient doesn’t want to fight deadly decease, well–it is patient’s loss. I think the picture will become much clearer in the next 7-8 years is Europe’s cancer is treatable at all. After that it wouldn’t matter anyway who buys Russia’s hydrocarbons in Europe–white “Christian” population or EU ran by mullahs and Islamic councils.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @polskijoe
  23. @WorkingClass

    Western Europe can get with the New Silk Road and prosper

    You mean turn itself into a huge Walmart? I don’t think that Europeans are very enthusiastic about it. In fact, I know so.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  24. Beckow says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The ‘door knockers’ might be a small minority, but they are noisy :)…

    I agree that what people have understood as ‘Europe’ for thousands of years today starts somewhere in eastern Germany and spreads eastward. The precise boundaries are fluid and there are strong enclaves left in parts of the West (Bretagne, rural Norway, etc…), but as a simplification it is true.

    The next 10-20 years will determine which way this goes – if West tips into a multi-cultural mess they will become increasingly unviable. By the way, ‘multi-cultural‘ just means ‘Third World‘, for some reason people are reluctant to call spade a spade.

    I am not as optimistic on the currently European central-east, it is after all the traditional home of the comprador class (‘the door knockers’), and the pressures are and will be incredible. Oasis never spreads, the desert does. I see the Western Europeans migrants to the Central-East every day, but it is a trickle. And when it grows there is no reason why the pathologies and the ‘recently arrived’ would not come with it. One of the more amusing things is to see a ‘British’ person coming east with their Indian-Pakistani attitudes and get furiously angry because they are treated like Indians. Often it is sad, because many are good people, fully assimilated. This is a cultural clash about to happen.

    My original point was that Russia and the European east in general need to forget about the West as the only panacea, or as something that will last, and find a way forward with any allies they can find (China seems like one). Or they can collapse into ‘multi-culturalism’ and learn to like it…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  25. @smellyoilandgas

    1. which Russian vs Chinese corporations stand to gain/lose from the OBOR initiative..

    Good question. And here is the issue: Russian-Chinese interaction can not be viewed merely through OBOR, albeit it is a very important part of it. I’ll try:

    1. It is clear that China is very interested in Northern Sea Route (NSR)–this is an axiom now. This means a dramatic growth of Russia’s infrastructure in Arctic, which automatically affects in the most positive way a whole host of corporations. Rostec, I am sure, is delighted with such a trend.

    2. China is very interested in hydrocarbons from Arctic, Gazprom is delighted, I am sure, but so are other corporations involved in extraction, including a very significant portion in machine building sector–a lot of extraction machinery was being import substituted in Russia as of lately.

    3. RZhD.

    So, it is a very positive net effect in some sense for Russians, but there is a much longer term consideration here and this one, once one sees Europe remaining a viable economic entity, is not as favorable for Russia. But we are getting here into a completely new discussion on a very different and very large subject. I’ll give you a hint, China does see herself as a substitute for the United States as a core of new Pax Sinica and there is a huge problem with that. Putin’s statement on White European Christendom was a first warning shot.

  26. @Andrei Martyanov

    One way or another somebody will have to suffer. Either Chinese if they do not turn Europe into Wal-Mart or Europeans if Chinese succeed. For long stability China needs all markets and resources it can get hands on.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @Vidi
  27. Mr. Hack says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The real Europe which survives today is the one from the Western borders of Poland to Vladivostok.

    Everything east of the Urals? Really? For all of your alleged prowess in being a mastermind of the sciences, it looks like you slept through your geography and history courses? Europe in Siberia and the Far East?… Seriously?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Joe Wong
  28. @Beckow

    Actually Soviet Russia was doing a lot of charity towards China and many other countries with many of those helped not paying debts back and actually backstabbing Russia. Those money would have been better spent for the benefit of Soviet people. China is incapable of doing charity for any reason. It is not in Chinese natìnal code. I guess China is right as inside stability and unity widths more than so called friends.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  29. @Beckow

    My original point was that Russia and the European east in general need to forget about the West as the only panacea, or as something that will last, and find a way forward with any allies they can find (China seems like one). Or they can collapse into ‘multi-culturalism’ and learn to like it…

    This already happened in Russia. It is pronounced, noticeable and irrefutable–never in my life did I see so much contempt to the contemporary West from majority of Russian people. It is, indeed, a revolutionary change.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  30. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Europe has never been bound by its geography. Is Novosibirsk more or less European than Brussels or large parts of London and Paris? Visit both and tell us…

    There are ‘European’ like parts of the rest of the world, in South America, Australia,… do you also object when someone refers to their European character?

  31. @Sergey Krieger

    Somebody will–and this is a long game. A lot in it depends on the fate of the United States, what it eventually becomes. A huge, huge question mark. I wrote for years now that Russia and US are natural allies, it is too bad that American “elites” are, for the most part, dumb as a stump.

  32. Beckow says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Soviet Russia was doing a lot of charity

    Yes, they were. I suppose they thought that it was to their ‘benefit’. It didn’t turn out that way. I think working to one’s benefit is a larger concept than just charity. But you are right that some nations have a propensity to define self-interest more broadly and China is not one of them.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  33. Kimppis says:

    Well, what the hell, this article is actually pretty good.

    But I’ll repeat this again:

    You underestimate the Chinese submarine fleet and technologies.

    They already have more than 40 modern diesel submarines (Improved Kilos, Type 039s and Type 041s), which already makes it by far the largest modern SSK fleet in the world.

    Yeah, sure, you have a point when it comes to far away SLOCs, which require nuclear subs… I mean you’re sort of correct, until 2025-30. But there are some major issues with the narrative:

    1. AFAK, the infamous “ONI chart” was published before the first Type 093 was even launched

    2. The most recent Type 093 variants look outwardly quite different and they are likely to be considerable improvements

    3. Lately there have been many reports about China’s recent and upcoming breakthroughs in nuclear sub tech and the construction of new submarine factory/factories

    4. And most importantly: the new SSN-class: Type 096, should logically already be competitive

    There is a gap of around 15 years, if not more, between the Type 093 and 096, which is absolutely massive when it comes to China and especially its nuclear subs. That means it will be a huge jump in technology.

    If the original variant of Type 093, even according to ONI’s “chart” was somewhat comparable to some of the oldest Russian and American boats still in service, the newer Type 093 variants even better, then the 096 should atleast be reasonably close to Yashens and Virginias, and for example certainly quieter than all the other Russian nuclear attack subs that are older than the Yashen-class. Why on earth would you predict anything else?

    The Type 096 will be the Type 052C/D of SSNs, as simple as that. The first one is probably already under construction, or atleast very close. And its competitiveness will be proven if and when the Chinese start ordering them in large numbers. Just like with their Type 052D destroyers, or even the Cs.

    It is the same thing with aircraft engines: China will inevitably be competitive in both by the mid 20s. Considering your overall expertise on the Chinese military, you probably haven’t heard, but China has recently tested J-20s with Chinese engines (not to mention, again, that there are hundreds of modern Chinese Flanker variants operational with… CHINESE engines). Yeah, they really are sooo far behind…

    So overall, by 2030 China will likely have ATLEAST four carriers, maybe even 5 or 6, 60 modern destroyers and atleast 50 modern frigates, more than 60 modern SSKs and atleast 20 more or less modern nuclear attack subs.

    Russia will have a similar number of SSN (and SSGNs) in 2030… I mean how many Yashens and upcoming Huskys do you think they will have by that time? Maybe they are veeery stronk and they’ll have 200? But no seriously… maybe 12? Plus the older, albeit upgraded, boats. (Which is of course still a good number, especially when you include the 20 or so SSKs, but Russia AHEAD of China in 2030? No, just no. That’s just not how any of this works.).

    Also, when it comes to Chinese ASW: probably 20-30 of those frigates will be a new class that heavily focuses on ASW and China will also have atleast 4 helicopter carriers…

    That should be enough to control more than the First Island Chain, to say the least.

    That all is almost inevitable at this point. You should expect nothing else from a country that will be the undeniable number 1 economy in the world by 2030 and that a mere decade ago had very few modern destroyers or… supercomputers (just one example).

    You won’t accept it. The “China can’t into nuclear subs” meme will live on for some time, doesn’t matter. We’ll see.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  34. @George Orwell

    You moron! Vlad closes the valves and Europe changes to wasteland.

  35. gT says:
    @Jean de Peyrelongue

    Agree, brilliant article. The Russian and Chinese motivations are clear; survive, prosper and grow fat. But what is the Empires’, the Anglo-Zionists’ motive? It is not to survive, prosper and grow fat.

    Currently they are destroying Europe. Ok, that prevents either Russia or China from benefiting from Europe. So bye-bye Europe. But they are destroying the USA also. With Europe and the USA gone as prosperous trading countries, that means China goes down also (China needs to trade to survive, lots of trade). That leaves just Russia sitting comfortably because Russia has everything it needs already.

    Bringing down Europe can lead to a single marshal law government there, bringing down the North American continent can lead to a single marshal law government there. Maybe the 2 marshal law governments across the Atlantic will merge into one government, that leaves a single marshal law government in control of both North America and Europe. And all along Russia is just sitting comfortably and will grow even stronger while Europe and North America go through their purposefully induced multi cultural marshal law merging spasms.

    But how does this fit in with the elite wanting a smaller global population to control? So the worlds’ population needs to be made smaller. The only way is by instigating a global nuclear and biological war at the right time, and then later the elite emerge from their bomb shelters with sufficient resources (doomsday vaults) at hand to control whatever remains. And that is the only way to get rid of the stubborn Russian problem. The coming mini ice age might be the right time for the ‘elites’ to try their luck.

  36. @Beckow

    There are ‘European’ like parts of the rest of the world, in South America, Australia,… do you also object when someone refers to their European character?

    He probably never heard about US and Canada having a predominantly European culture. He also never heard about Northern Belt.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  37. @Andrei Martyanov

    I guess the only way USA and Russia becomes natural allies is when USA becomes regional power. It looks like current and previous conditions tend to create extremely anti Russian elites. American status and psychology should change imho for this to happen.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  38. CK says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Quick delivery over internal lines of communication that are not easy to interdict.
    It wasn’t just Mahan it was also Mackinder.
    Rail delivery from Xian to London has already been done. Now it is merely a matter of speeding it up and simplifying the paperwork. And as with the internet, the one belt one road can be routed around impediments ( political ). Secure passage of goods and peoples from Seoul to Lisbon From Singapore to Narvik, when the heartland is economically welded the peripheral nations become much less puissant.

  39. @Beckow

    I think die to this and overall China lack of appeal and national character I think Pax Sinica highly unlikely. China most probably does not have a lot what it takes to be the One. At the heart china has nothing to offer but walmart all over the place. Hardly a vision others want to participate.

  40. Mitleser says:
    @WHAT

    And then there is Airbus and/or Bombardier, which will probably jump into development partnership with chinese just as quickly as russians did for the right price.

    Bombardier has sold their commercial aircraft business to Airbus and the Chinese.

  41. @Andrei Martyanov

    Culture is white but it is getting hard to find whites in Toronto.

  42. @Sergey Krieger

    I guess the only way USA and Russia becomes natural allies is when USA becomes regional power. It looks like current and previous conditions tend to create extremely anti Russian elites. American status and psychology should change imho for this to happen.

    You are spot on here. This is also the trend now. Trump’s victory is a first major sign of the split in American elites and this fragmentation is a strong symptom of inability to sustain anymore global, grossly exaggerated at that, status. The US will retain some of its true strengths from commercial aviation and electronics, among some, through strong navy but it will be forced to “settle” at some point with most likely China or Russia. Who is it going to be? I don’t think the US as a culture wants China–it automatically means the third world. At some point neocons will be removed, even if for a reasons of completely running the US into the ground. Hopefully, we’ll see this transition which is already in progress come to some sensible end.

  43. Many good points but, in a general way, I think the author seriously underestimates the role of airpower in modern warfare. Mahan’s book dates from 1890, at a time when aviation didn’t even exist, to say nothing of radio, radar, spy satellites, or GPS. In Mahan’s day, and even down to WWII, once a fleet disappeared over the horizon, its whereabouts remained unknown until it popped up somewhere. That was the origin of the “fleet in being” theory: countries always had to allow for the possibility that an enemy fleet, that they knew was at sea, would suddenly pop up over the horizon. That’s no longer the case and today, control of the airspace over the battlefield is the essential element. Russia’s Arctic coast, which the author seems to regard as its best card, is extremely vulnerable to attack by land-based planes from North America, which avoids the current debate about the future usefulness of aircraft carriers. Any US – Russian war would almost certainly be mainly an air war over the Arctic, given the string of “resource sites” (oil, gas, coal etc.) stretching from just west of the Urals all the way to the Pacific coast.
    “The name of the Chinese game is Europe”. “China’s initiative is not that beneficial to Russia. In fact, it goes contrary to Russia’s own plans for creating a new Eurasian Economic Union”. That needed to be said. The Chinese plan has been presented in the US as being designed to prop up Putin but it is actually undermining him both by reaching out to the EU, in regard to which Putin has reduced Russia to being Washington’s stooge, and by disenclaving the Central Asian republics, breaking Russia’s stranglehold on their communications by providing them with rail links to seaports. I think the author’s assessment of the “alliance” with China is thus a bit exaggerated. It is, as he says, merely designed to secure China’s rear. I would doubt if it could properly be called a fully-fledged military alliance.
    “In the end, the United States also needs Europe in a desperate attempt to revitalize own economy by utilizing the subjugated and split EU as the main market for US hydrocarbons and goods”. The idea that the US is trying to subjugate and split the EU also needed to be said and Putin’s mistake was to make himself part of that operation. Putin has told so many lies that nobody now knows what to believe but concerns for the fate of white European Christian Civilization and the desire to preserve it will be music to the ears of EU leaders. Russia is a European country and the Russians are the most numerous European ethnic group. The claim that they are not is part of the abovementioned US campaign to destroy the EU. Europe gets the signal loud and clear but does Putin? He must realise that there can be no deal with the EU until he removes himself from Ukraine and, probably, until he himself leaves power. If the US leaves Europe in the lurch, then it will destroy itself, be simply bypassed as a player in Eurasia, as the author puts it. By making himself an American stooge, Putin has become a liability to the gangsters who put him into power and, indeed, to the American groups that want to use him as a battering ram to destroy the EU. Do they get the signal?

    • Replies: @WHAT
    , @V
  44. Beckow says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    … so much contempt to the contemporary West from majority of Russian people

    This is matched by an outright hatred and fear by large majorities in the West. What we have is polarisation and escalation. That is a dead end and only benefits third parties.

    When a sensible country like Netherlands has 90% people say that they fear and dislike Russia, there is a problem. We can blame it on the media campaigns, politicians, or even lost Malaysian airlines, it still doesn’t account for the emotion. The same is true about other previously more normal countries like Canada, Sweden or Finland. Something is going on, and on both sides. In Central Europe the numbers are much better, but the polarisation is palpable – the NGO Atlanticist types in big cities openly hate anything Russian, most nationalist leaning groups (not all) take a militant pro-Putin positions. There is no discussion, just name-calling.

    It is heading towards a confrontation. The first step of dehumanising and demonising the ‘enemy’ has been done – in the West almost totally, I don’t know about Russia. Next crisis could be fatal for all of us. The constraints (definitely in the West) are off. They have talked for so long about the dreadful Russian enemy, they might talk themselves into another war.

  45. @George Orwell

    The russophobia is a media construct, and “a mile wide and an inch deep” is how it should be viewed. All of it would disappear overnight with a change in the media’s messages. The extent to which a person would believe that it is real is proportional to that person’s reliance on the msm for his worldview.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @yurivku
  46. WHAT says:
    @Michael Kenny

    >muh jewkraine

    Your fixation on this particular rump state is truly fascinating.

  47. @WorkingClass

    “Americans could help by teaching their children it’s Okay to be white”

    I think that most Americans do teach their children this. It’s the msm (and mostly TV) that carries the meme that white people are outnumbered and powerless.

    ” Is it ironic that America made China great again? Thanks Bill Clinton.”

    You can’t blame Clinton alone. Nixon paved the way by obeying his handlers’ urgings to give the old WASP power brokers their access to the China market that they had slavered over for 150+ years. After Nixon went to China, the process was continued by the presidents who followed him, picking up steam under GHW Bush, Clinton, W, and Obama.

    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
  48. @Kimppis

    You underestimate the Chinese submarine fleet and technologies.

    Sorry, but I don’t.

    They already have more than 40 modern diesel submarines (Improved Kilos, Type 039s and Type 041s), which already makes it by far the largest modern SSK fleet in the world.

    SSKs, even with AIP ARE not designed for a sustained blue water operations on SLOCs. To “win” Indian Ocean, PLAN will need a very large fleet of state-of-the-art SS(G)Ns. China simply doesn’t have such fleet. You agree with me below:

    Yeah, sure, you have a point when it comes to far away SLOCs, which require nuclear subs… I mean you’re sort of correct, until 2025-30. But there are some major issues with the narrative:

    Creating advanced nuclear power sub, especially admitted by peers as a world-class weapon system, is enormously difficult and is not only based on getting some acceptable noise levels, however important this task is. Obviously PLAN was improving but most of its statements about its SSNs are, at best exaggerations, at worst suffer from detachment from reality. China is nowhere near still with such designs and, actual, subs as Project 885 or Virginia-class.

    It is the same thing with aircraft engines: China will inevitably be competitive in both by the mid 20s. Considering your overall expertise on the Chinese military, you probably haven’t heard, but China has recently tested J-20s with Chinese engines (not to mention, again, that there are hundreds of modern Chinese Flanker variants operational with… CHINESE engines). Yeah, they really are sooo far behind…

    They are behind, nor J-20 is realistically a 5th generation fighter. Nor overblown in mostly US media DF-21 is real carrier-killer, nor many other things that China proclaims to be ready any minute now and be competitive.

    Russia will have a similar number of SSN (and SSGNs) in 2030… I mean how many Yashens and upcoming Huskys do you think they will have by that time? Maybe they are veeery stronk and they’ll have 200? But no seriously… maybe 12? Plus the older, albeit upgraded, boats. (Which is of course still a good number, especially when you include the 20 or so SSKs, but Russia AHEAD of China in 2030? No, just no. That’s just not how any of this works.).

    Russia’s naval interests and necessities and Chinese ones are really quite different–Russia HAS an option of NOT fighting on SLOCs and having both strategic containment and, if necessary, power projection capabilities quite easily addressed. China doesn’t have such an option unless she goes Full Monty to NSR, under the cover of Russia’s A2/AD bubble there. Per Chinese Aircraft Carriers–get acquainted with this, could be a good supplement in understanding that just the technology, while important, has much more to it than a hardware, which still must be top-notch.

    http://www.airuniversity.af.mil/Portals/10/CASI/documents/Research/PLAN_Aviation/PLA%20Naval%20Aviation%20Web%20PDF%20v2.pdf?ver=2017-12-20-093117-563

    Also, when it comes to Chinese ASW: probably 20-30 of those frigates will be a new class that heavily focuses on ASW and China will also have atleast 4 helicopter carriers…

    Get to Google maps and take a look at 2000 miles which separate Guam from the major Choke Point and main deployment route into the Indian Ocean from China and ask yourself a question on how many P-8 Poseidons and how many Virginias will be hanging in and around this Gap waiting for PLAN to deploy? Do not forget that the US Navy can deploy (if push comes to shove) minimum of 2 CBGs, whose number of the attack fighter aircraft will surpass, and by far, all number of theoretical aircraft on all 4 Chinese carriers. So, there is a colossal number of technological, operational and strategic questions China needs to answer before we all may say that, sure–here is the preeminent military power of our time. China is not there yet, not by a long shot.

    3. Lately there have been many reports about China’s recent and upcoming breakthroughs in nuclear sub tech and the construction of new submarine factory/factories

    When it happens, will talk. I am not saying that it will not–but I have some vague (wink, wink) ideas on what it takes to develop and build a state-of-the-art Navy (and Armed Forces), so I will reserve my opinions for now.

    • Replies: @bluedog
  49. @Beckow

    It is heading towards a confrontation.

    It depends what type of “confrontation”. If we are talking military one–Europe and US have no chance. If it is a cultural clash, what can I say–sad, but then again, is current Europe even worth fighting for? Is it even Europe anymore? That is the main question. As long as Europe buys Russia’s affordable energy and washing machines, among many other things, it is fine with Russians. After 2019 it might not be that crucial altogether. Putin effectively staked Russia as Europe in his speech at Valdai. So, in some cynical sense, it is Europe’s problems not Russia’s. In fact, the number of people in Russia demanding new Iron Curtain is growing. Russia is certainly not intent to “attack” Europe (what for) and she is entirely capable now to defeat any attempt on herself. We’ll see how it plays out in Ukraine and then we will have a larger “data set” to play with.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  50. @Beckow

    Russia might see itself as a part of Europe, but most Western Europeans have never seen it that way. So it is like knocking on a door that will never open.

    I haven’t read the post (later, it’s long). But, your comment is only partially right. True, most Western Europeans had not, until the 19th C, considered Russia to be a part of the “West”- but the majority of thinking women & men do consider it now (and have been in past 100-150 years).

    What is West?

    It is a combination of three elements:

    1. Greco-Roman heritage
    2. Christianity
    3. rational & scientific spirit going back to 18th C Enlightenment

    If we include the Renaissance as the prerequisite, Russia would not pass the check. But nor would Norway, Sweden or Greece. Not persuasive, no …

    If it is because of a regional variant of Christianity, then we should also dispense with Greece, something hardly imaginable- they’re the cradle of the Western civilization.

    Looking at Russian history, identity & culture in past, say, 3 centuries, it definitely belongs to Europe. Moreover, there is not a single specifically Russian cultural trait that is alien or incomprehensible to the “core” West of France, Italy or Switzerland.

    Unlike Arab world, east Asia, India,…among civilizations. And I even won’t mention shitholes.

  51. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    In this discussion as well as in countless others the common thread is a tone of anti-Americanism. This is an unfortunate turn of events but is self-inflicted. At the end of the last war America had a lot of political capital, people looked to it as an example, the economy was providing a good life to many people and slogans of freedom and democracy fell on receptive ears everywhere. This has been squandered by the greed and shortsightedness of the ‘elites’, such as they are, as the US has become more openly predatory as it’s capabilities to do so have grown. I don’t even know if the US can continue to be considered to be ‘west’ as it seems to have morphed into some mongrelized hybrid offshoot. There’s no real culture you know, just some commercial junk-mind-rot. Let me point out that most of the anti-American comments here and elsewhere come from Americans themselves, can you believe it?

    • Replies: @bluedog
  52. In the 19th century the Brits wanted to create a Cape-to-Cairo railway, the Germans a Berlin-to-Baghdad railway. Both of these far smaller and simpler projects failed.

    We’ll see.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @jilles dykstra
  53. Beckow says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    We could have a military confrontation if an unexpected event is escalated – anywhere in the world. In that case, nobody has a ‘chance’, we would all be losers. From Ukraine, Korea, Syria, Iran, to an overly enthusiastic Danish F16 pilot, given the lack of good will and furious hatred in the West, how would anyone stop it? Most Western media is in a full yellow journalism mode yelling for a war (‘but not really’, right?). At some point perceptions become reality. It is hard to walk back crazy talk in a crisis. What politician would take a chance?

    Culturally, I more or less agree with you. The West has shot itself in the foot. Out of either hubris or desperation, the West has gradually politicised every institution; from Hollywood to the Olympics, from travel advisories to media campaigns and ‘truth agencies’. (By the way, how does a ‘truth agency’ as setup by EU or Nato differ from a simple censorship? Has there ever been a censor who didn’t claim that they were doing it to ‘suppress lies or heresies’?)

    Even cynicism has to have a rational goal. If Western Europe becomes a harder working, colder version of the Third World, it is not good for either Central Europe or Russia. Central Europe due to its size and proximity would eventually follow the West. An isolated Russia is a vulnerable Russia. As many have pointed out, during times of isolation something in the Russian psyche kicks in and starts the mad yearning for the ‘West’, to be like ‘Paris’, to sell it all for a nice smile. It would happen again. And the fact that by then Paris might as well be an Oudagoudou with Metro (decrepit anyway), will not stop the Russian yearning – it is in the soul.

    We would all be better off if rationality would prevail and people would go back to mature behaviour and some sense of normalcy. On all sides.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  54. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    “…Russia, the US, China and Europe. These four players must sort their problems out in a peaceful and civilized way—there is no other viable option.”

    All four are controlled to an unimaginable degree (MSM never reports it) by banksters, Ziomedia, neocons et al, who are willing to trash the world to rule as masters what’s left of it. They make money by war, not peace. This world problem must be addressed, just as drug kingpins need taken down to solve that problem. This series should be required viewing in all universities and by all governments, but may not even be online much longer. Please see Part 1 (the alternate link just above the video is best): https://europathelastbattle.wordpress.com/watch/

    • Replies: @Anon
  55. @Beckow

    If Europe indeed turns into the Zoo ran by monkeys it will not be able to afford any sort of modem military thus potentially becoming easy picking for Russia if she is provoked and in this case she will most certainly will be. I believe europe is too valuable real estate to Leave hér to savages. In this case Reconquista comes to mind. And Russia might finally resolve the issue you described. Russian mood will certainly be different in the future from now. Looks like destiny. After so many visits by partners …

    • Replies: @Beckow
  56. Che Guava says:

    Great article Andrei.

    I have two poimts to add.

    Although we are never to hearimg of it, a Jew in the USA, name of Jacob Schiff, was placimg the govt. of Japan in debt to himself to win the Russo-Japan war of 1904 to 05.

    Russian PoWs were also subjected to Jewish Conmunist brainwashing at that thme.

    Japanese navy, best in east, also pathetic ship designs are dictated by the occupying power,

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  57. Mitleser says:
    @anony-mouse

    The Eurasian railway is already reality.
    Last year, a train moved from China to London and back.

  58. bluedog says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    One thing you should bear in mind is that we have always underestimated China and what they could do,where we stated that it would take them 10 years to go from point A to point B it took them 5 and that’s always the way its been…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  59. peterAUS says:

    Good article.
    Some good comments too.

    Speaking of confrontation, a good point from one of comments about “air power” which was, partially, missing from the article. Partially, because it is, obviously, assumed that any confrontation at sea/on land would include that element.

    What is missing, though, is that element of internal unrest here.

    I don’t believe in intentional direct confrontation between the main players as in the article and most of comments. It is possible, of course but, should it happen it would go fast into nuclear and then…..

    What is much more likely is US/West/whatever simply initiating some sort of internal unrest in either Russia (more likely) or China.

    Any of those would work just fine.
    If that unrest can be created somewhere along those trade routes mentioned in the article, even better.

  60. bluedog says:
    @anonymous

    Yes I can for many if not most Americans are sick of what we have become,the endless wars the endless greed the endless killing, while America sinks ever deeper into the cesspool it created…

  61. Brilliant explanation of the Geopolcies right now.

    OBOR is China’s FU to the US, in the sense that is almost impossible to block. Rusia’s role in this is evident. EU has , or is about, to sign a treaty with China and Japan too. EU sees the US as spent, not militarily, but commercially, the market for high tech EU produce in China is huge and growing. And let us not forget That there several other nations in OBOR, which gladly would by EU produce, because it is high quality. OBOR is a typical chinese brainchild, very long term, involving many and not exploiting any but trading. The US is like a sullen child, but it can only blame itself, it allowed shamelessly everything offshored and is now harvesting the fruits of mega-money. As a socialist, the EU was hard to swallow in the start, but it is obvious that Europe would have been robbed blind by the US if we coud not stand together in the EU. Surprisingly few people dont understand this.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  62. @anony-mouse

    Britain engineered WWI because of the Berlin Basra railway.
    Edward Mead Earle, Ph.D., ‘Turkey, The Great Powers and The Bagdad Railway, A study in Imperialism’, 1923, 1924, New York
    The line was to go through Mosul, with a German concession of ten miles at both sides, through the richest then known oilfields.
    Lawrence (of Arabia), archeologist, spied on the progress.
    The connection to Basra was also feared, the British might lose their monopoly on exporting goods to India, smuggling from Basra to India could not be prevented.
    When I visited Aleppo in 1986 the railway station still existed, until the Syrian war tourist trains travelled from Istanbul to Aleppo, or Damascus, forgot which.
    In the thirties the British again feared Germany because of economic expansion to the south east:
    Lawrence R. Pratt, ‘East of Malta, West of Suez’, London, 1975

  63. @Bardon Kaldian

    Petersburg was full of western merchants in 1917, when Lenin grabbed power.
    They were expelled.
    How long Dutch merchants lived there, I suppose in any case from the 17th century.

  64. @Che Guava

    Japanese navy, best in east, also pathetic ship designs are dictated by the occupying power,

    Japanese “version” of US DDG Arleigh Burke-class “Congo” and Atago-class, its Japanese “pumped” version of SPY-1 radar and CICS are considered superior to US Navy’s. Japanese submarine force is world-class in technology and personnel. Simply, world-class–despite being non-nuclear. It is a complex picture.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  65. @Beckow

    ” When a sensible country like Netherlands has 90% people say that they fear and dislike Russia, there is a problem. ”
    Who says so ?
    Our politicians and media ?
    We voted by referendum against the EU association treaty with Ukraine, largely because of the military cooperation paragraph, we do not want war with Russia.
    For me Putin is the man who saves the world from USA dominance.
    What I fear is NATO, and USA generals who talk about tactical hydrogen bombs.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Beckow
  66. Beckow says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    I think a lesson from history is that it is a self-defeating madness to ‘conquer’ and occupy any Zoo run by recently arrived simians, or a poor shit-hole of any kind. It is stupid. Expanding into a gutter, makes your country into a gutter, your own it.

    Reconquista had inquisition and slightly more permissive ‘population’ policies. That is not available today. If Western Europe goes down over the next 25-50 years into Third World squalor, nobody will come to save them. My concern is that before they slide down the garbage shoot into the Third-World multicultural nirvana they will manage to spread it into Central-Eastern Europe. They are certainly trying. And if that happens it is only a question of time before an isolated Russia – with its own internal issues – follows the pattern.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  67. windwaves says:
    @Z-man

    Fully agree that this is a main factor in this type of analysis.

  68. AaronB says:

    A very subtle and intelligent analysis. I’m not particularly interested in the topic but I enjoyed reading the ins and outs of a well thought out strategic analysis, when well done.

    Russia functions to a certain extent as western Europe’s “shadow side” – the side that got gradually swallowed up by modernization.

    Russia retains a significant connection to pre-modern European cultural traditions, which give it a somewhat “Asiatic character”, as the pre-modern West was essentially similar to Asia, a fact often obscured by attempts to locate the roots of Western modernity in a distinctive pre-modern Western sensibility, when what made the modern West distinctive is largely its rejection of earlier sensibilities.

    So western Europeans are necessarily ambivalent about Russia, attracted and repelled, even as they are ambivalent about their own modern identities.

    For Russia to stress its modern European side may reassure Europeans while simultaneously providing them with an opportunity to reconnect with their repressed “shadow side” and view it more favourably.

    That’s good fantasy, at any rate.

    In reality….

    These four players must sort their problems out in a peaceful and civilized way—there is no other viable option. The only alternative is a bloody destructive triumph of Navalism.

    That’s precisely why we’re probably headed to some kind of war…

    Humans being what they are.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  69. anon • Disclaimer says:

    A very long rambling article for the author to basically say the following:

    1. Russia is a white country
    2. Europe is white, China is not
    3. White countries need to stick together

    Got it!

    Too bad the enlightened Western Europeans have never considered Russia part of Europe, and no longer even give a shit about being white.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anon
  70. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    I just checked the alternate link I recommended above Part 1 of the ‘Europa – The Last Battle’ series and find it’s been compromised. Here is a link to Part 1 that’s still working – you have to choose to see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcH00ZC3Df0

  71. @bluedog

    One thing you should bear in mind is that we have always underestimated China and what they could do,where we stated that it would take them 10 years to go from point A to point B it took them 5 and that’s always the way its been…

    Manufacturing iPhones and developing indigenous space program, world-class aerospace or naval engineering school are two very different “point A to point B” journeys. Dramatically different.

    • Replies: @bluedog
  72. @Beckow

    I do not think Europe will go that far. But I did mention Reconquesta. Invaders were evicted then. I do not see why it is not possible in the future.

  73. Beckow says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Who says so ?

    Based on the last research survey Netherlands has the lowest Russia Approval rating. It is 85% negative, 4% neutral, 11% positive. Beats even fanatically anti-Russia Denmark and Sweden, at 83 and 81 negative views.

    I was surprised. A few years ago I did some graduate studies in Rotterdam and the place was sanity central. People were generally skeptical. I agree that the Ukraine-EU referendum showed Dutch as thoughtful people.

    In all EU countries the media is in a silly Russia is a threat and ‘everything Russian is evil’ phase. Nobody does it better than UK or Germany. And yet, both British and Germans are slightly less anti-Russia than the small northern countries. What is going on?

    • Replies: @polskijoe
    , @V
    , @jilles dykstra
  74. Joe Wong says:
    @Anonymous

    Neither do I sure what the author’s point is. It seems the author is making a lot self assertions to assure the American still matters in the world events. On the other hand, if the American is contented with its world number one class navy title and keep their navy away from causing mayhem to the global SLOCs i.e. not driving their warships into commercial ships like drunken sailors so often, the world should caste a brass hat, a big trophy, some kind of fancy medals or certificates to pacify the American Navy. Perhaps even pay the American Navy stay at home moored at piers.

    • Replies: @Anon
  75. Pisa2016 says:

    Oh boy, what a dumb post.

    Any idiot knows that land based platforms far out range sea platforms

    Any battle between modern countries would just be land based sea denial battles.

    The US or whatever navy ventures past Hawaii and their entire fleet gets annihilated by carrier killers and mach 7-10 ramjets, that can skim, move erratically, or strike from high altitude

    Navy’s are by and far obsolete

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  76. Beckow says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, you are right and still most people in Western Europe (and some in the east, all the way to Ukraine) do not consider Russia to be a part of Europe. It is an emotional position. Occasionally they will drop it when convenient, but the dislike of Russia eventually prevails.

    Use some basic criteria for inclusion:
    - Is Russia treated by the same standards as Europe treats itself? Obviously not, the rules are applied completely differently from Kosovo-Crimea, ethnic minority questions, to applying due process in institutions (last example being the Olympic doping).

    What is West?

    It is a combination of three elements:

    1. Greco-Roman heritage
    2. Christianity
    3. rational & scientific spirit going back to 18th C Enlightenment

    I would add that Europe (what you refer to as ‘West’) is also infrastructure, engineering competence, society norms, etc…

    Greece-Rome is too ancient, Christianity has been almost explicitly abandoned in the West, and rational spirit requires consistent critical thinking – that is in short supply in official Europe these days.

    Russia will be accepted by Western Europeans as ‘Europe’ when nobody will any longer want to be thought off as ‘Western Europe’. The multi-culti nirvana with dirty streets, gangs and PC authoritarianism will then say to Russia: ‘come in, you are one of us, can we move to your territory?, we have messed up our homes, please save us from our past indulgence’.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @V
  77. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Its largely for a Western audience. Within Russia, the opinions vary greatly.

    The commentary and posting on Unz is largely a distortion from the mainstream as written by expats, like Moscow Times is within Russia is a distortion as written by expats on Russia. The last AP opinion poll found that the future elite of young, high income and high educated Russians tended to be highly bullish on China with almost half expressing that “great efforts should be made to increase relationships with China.”

  78. With Europe slowly coming to some understanding of the dead end of its cultural and economic policies

    Unfortunately it’s far from clear imo that this is indeed happening. But very interesting piece, thanks.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  79. @Pisa2016

    Any idiot knows that land based platforms far out range sea platforms

    I think you are right, only idiots know that, educated people know that actual weapons of war, that is by implications non-nuclear (plus nuclear tipped), are regulated by still alive, however barely, INF Treaty which specifically forbids land-based weapons (platforms, in your lingo?) thus making range between 500 to 5,500 kilometers verboten for land-based “platforms”. Yet, currently, the most long range both anti-shipping and TLAM weapons which are not only actual weapons but are constantly used in the conflicts are precisely NON-land based and which are most long range are carried by ships, submarines and aircraft. Is that what you meant to say? ;-)) Just FYI, the range of 3M14 is officially 2500 kilometers, of X-101 5,500 kilometers. Yes, I also never heard of any conventional war being fought with strategic ballistic missiles.

    Navy’s are by and far obsolete

    LOL, sure and the cars will become obsolete and go out of business any minute now. Let me show you something:

    This is “obsolete” SSBN of Project 955, which is in the “obsolete” Russian Navy and it is one of the major factors which prevents this current world from going completely mad–it is called MAD.

    • Replies: @Pisa2016
  80. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Beckow

    End of liners display very specific characteristics: moronic relativism, hedonism, absurdity, inability to understand that some rules of the game – or constraints – cannot be changed, and, of course, no children. Looking at Western Europe that behaviour is dominant, so what there to save?

    What is there to save?

    A civilization. The greatest civilization the world has yet seen.

    How to save it?

    1) Stop talking and acting like a wimp.

    2) Boot the globalist treasonite leadership.

    3) Boot the “refugees” and criminal immigrants, incentivize repatriation of legal and law-abiding immigrants, with large cash grants, certain rights, e.g., to Euro passports but without residency rights.

    4) Reimpose the traditional values through education, law reform, and legal restrictions on recruitment by non-Christian religious groups.

    5) Criminalize sex “education”.

    6) Outlaw abortion.

    7) Restore meritocracy in education, slash university entrance to 10% or less of school graduates, terminate the PC indoctrination courses in the university, restore academic freedom in the university, slash academic salaries, eliminate corporate control of academic research.

    8) Restore freedom of speach:

    Break up the media monopolies. Institute a one person/company one media outlet policy.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Kiza
  81. Pisa2016 says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Completely untrue, since most cities don’t have coastal access, so they would have to truck -> sea ->truck instead of just rail with no transfers between two cities

  82. @CanSpeccy

    Yes, but how do you even get close to implementing such a programme? And the problem is, given current trends time is running out fast, a long march through the institutions bearing fruit only 20-30 years in the future will be too late, and it looks like most Western Europeans still don’t get the gravity of the situation and are unwilling to do anything about it. Even voting for a patriotic party in the secrecy of a voting booth is apparently too much for them.

  83. bluedog says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    That as with all things take time but they have been remarkable in what they have accomplished up to this point, and the short span of time that required them to do so.Give them another 20 years and then judge, as they become the number one economic power in the world…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  84. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “world-class Russia’s commercial aircraft design and technologies”

    Sounds like hype. What is Russia’s current contribution to the worldwide commercial aircraft industry in terms of market share? Are there any components of a commercial aircraft where Russia has more than a few percentage points of market share?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  85. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    Well, its nice to have an 8-step plan. Of course, then you need to be able to execute it.

    #2 needs one weird trick.

  86. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    Your country is the most beloved now, though.

    Germany is now the top-rated global power in the world, with an approval rating of 41%, according to the survey.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/18/world/us-slips-behind-china-in-gallup-global-leadership-poll-intl/index.html?sr=fbCNN011818us-slips-behind-china-in-gallup-global-leadership-poll-intl0802AMVODtop

    • LOL: German_reader
  87. @bluedog

    Give them another 20 years and then judge, as they become the number one economic power in the world…

    China IS already the first economy in the world. It has realistically the largest GDP in the world, especially when one talks about industrial capacity. The United States, a huge portion of whose GDP are virtual non-productive financial operations and books’ cooking, is not the first economy in the world anymore. So, in this respect China is already number one economic power in the world. There are, however, hugely important economic qualifiers for economy other than just the size of GDP and its structure, however important they are. There is NO economy without geopolitics (or rather what came to be defined as geopolitics today) and vice-versa. It is especially true when one MUST consider global military-political trends. War and economics are inseparable. Well, with the exception of the Wall Street and London “economists”.

    • Agree: bluedog
  88. @Anonymous

    Sounds like hype

    Nope, sounds like ignorance on your part and a typical CNN-money or Wall Street economic “education”.

    https://www.rbth.com/business/2017/08/24/how-boeing-and-airbus-use-russias-expertise-to-develop-their-airplanes_827604

    Here is just a little taste. But ask yourself a question what is common (and crucially a lot) between B-787 and MC-21? And why it is so?

    Now, in terms of modern combat aviation, which is very closely related in many manufacturing and even some design aspects to commercial–yeah, sure try to impress Russia with F-22 or F-35. In conclusion, MC-21 is going into production next year primarily for one reason–to remove obsolete second-hand junk from Boeing and Airbus (737s and 320s) Russia was forced to buy in 1990s-early 2000s. It is primarily domestic aircraft and its international prospects are secondary considerations. Yet, MC-21 is a state-of-the-art aircraft which continues Soviet/Russian very long tradition of some excellent commercial aircraft.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Pisa2016
  89. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    Using your method of analogy and attribution, most of the western world is an American subset, due to the preponderance of cultural symbols and views that emanate from the US. Granted, the closer the metropolitan area is to the traditional Russian ethnic homeland, the greater the process of Russian cultural accretion. But to refer to Vladivostok as a part of Europe (as Martyanov does in his statement) seems to be a stretch, in my way of thinking. Vladivostok’s history and development was influenced as much by an Asian imprint as any other. China, Japan, Korea and even the U.S. have all left indelible imprints on the Primorsky krai, and indigenous Asians such as the Udege and Taz peoples still abound in the related countryside. The area is nominally Russian at best and is truly a cosmopolitan area not to be subject to simple and inaccurate characterizations, certainly not ‘European’.

  90. Alfred says:

    A fantastic article. Thank you. Will spread the word.

  91. @Den Lille Abe

    Yeah, Europeans are standing together alright — in favor of sharia and subjugation by non-European Muslims. Good thing they stood together and didn’t get ripped off by the US.

    Agree with the rest of your observatons, though ;)

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  92. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I love it! Thank you for linking to tbat, Daniel.

    According to the law of dialectic, as China’s frenetic Westernization gathers momentum, it must generate these countervailing forces which resist that.

    My cautious hope is that ultimately the good side of China will prevail, as that tradition has such a long history and is so deeply embedded. The current turn to power politics is surely a crisis response and historically conditioned, and as such deserving of sympathy and understanding, if not enthusiasm.

    We shall see – tnanks!

    • Replies: @utu
  93. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @German_reader

    but how do you even get close to implementing such a programme?

    Someone has to come out of nowhere to take the lead. Whatever Trump achieves or fails to achieve, it is the case that his election campaign demonstrated that the bipartisan globalist elite can be trashed. How? Simply by effectively representing the wishes of the working class, who have long opposed mass immigration and who obviously oppose off-shoring of jobs.

    Such leaders have not emerged in Europe almost certainly because populist movements were run by agents of the pro-globalist establishment. The German Nazi movement, for example, was headed by an MI6 agent (Not because anyone feared a resurgence of Nazism, but to keep the specter of Nazism in the public eye, to be universally loathed and despised and thus to intimidate wannabe populists who would speak for the people). Both in America and Canada there have been Nazi leaders of Jewish origin. The former British National Party leader, Nick Griffin, behaved more like a stooge of the intelligence services than a patriot, throwing the party’s chances in the 2010 election by a ridiculous display of stupid and thuggish behavior. Tony Blair was funded largely by Jewish interests. And one could give endless additional examples of elite influence over populist movements.

    Trump beat the establishment by virtue of at least six things (1) his grasp of the American vernacular language that enables him to speak directly with the blue collar class, (2) his exceptional energy, (3) his money, (4) his support for Jewish nationalism which won him Jewish support for his American nationalism, (5) his opportunistic exploitation of Twitter, (6) a weak opponent blinded by a sense of entitlement and demonstrably corrupt.

    In Europe, no identical constellation of factors will come together to upset the establishement. But there are many countries in Europe, each with its own fate yet to be determined. The election in Austria, the imminent fall of Merkel, the Brexit decision, all reveal a crumbling system of control, that will embolden renewed efforts by many people in many different ways to destroy the project for the genocide of the European people, as racial and cultural entities.

  94. why does Andrei hate China so much?

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    , @JL
  95. Yes, Russia appears to be the pivot around which the future will unfold. See: MacKinder. The question is who gets to claim their friendship and fidelity? Who’s interests most align with Russia’s? Decades ago, this point came up, and the answer then commonly given was that Russian’s were of the same racial stock as Europeans, and hence culture, and the Chinese were not.

  96. polskijoe says:

    Europe is still heavily dependant on USA. Thats why a large portion of EU elites
    side with either neoliberalism or neoconservativism.

    Certain European countries have massive debt. What happens if this “relationship” is stopped?

    UK debt: 7.8 trillion
    France: 5.4 trillion
    Germany: 5.1 trillion
    Netherlands: 4.3 trillion
    Luxembourg (lol): 4 trillion debt!

    If the EU breaks, I see the Visegrad countries siding more with US then Russia.
    They might think the US will protect them from EU and Russia.
    Boy I dont want allies like Estonia or West Ukraine.

    Visegrad group is split, anyway:
    Czechs are more liberal, pro Zionist, less religious, national minded
    Slovakia: they are so quiet I cant comment.
    Poland: proEU or proNATO thing going. No talking with Russia, just spread the Applebaum, Soros, or Mccain type propaganda. Most religious.
    Hungary: seems the most balanced between them.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  97. polskijoe says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Several problems:

    a)Falling morals heavily, which usually lead to mass immigration
    b)Low fertility rates
    c)Huge Atlantic friendships between US and EU elites.

    I will just focus on the fertility rates.

    Russias fertility rate is 1.7 (and I suspect less for European Slavics)
    Poland is 1.3
    All the Slavic lands, Romania, Hungary, Baltics have also tiny rates.

    Russia is massive and should do anything necessary to increase ferlirty rates (yes investigations into chemicals, vaccines, health to check if they play any role).

    Poland needs to at least raise back to 2 children. Or it will become slowly empty (sorry not a fan of cloning if thats ever possible for humans).

    Countries like Romania, Ukraine will become more empty.
    Baltics may seize to exist with their tiny population.

    Not looking good.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  98. polskijoe says:
    @Beckow

    Sorry more multiple posts (I hope they get through).

    Wow Poland is at 27. There is hope lol!

    I dont believe the marks from Germany and France.
    I saw another poll and many Germans want to improve relations with Russia.
    Was surprised by Croatia.

  99. Joe Wong says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    The three elements you defined West is contradictory to each other and problematic. If point 3 stands, you are saying the West has never exist before 18th century Enlightenment, and you are condemning your ancestors as stupid, uneducated, superstitious, imitative, ignorant, passive, irrational, ritualistic, lazy, chaotic, spontaneous, insane, emotional, dysfunctional, enslaved, despotic, intolerant, corrupt, savage, barbaric, morally regressive and economically stagnant.

    Looking back to history, during the medieval Euopre Dark Age, i.e. before the Renaissance, Europe was indeed an ignorant, superstitious, enslaved, ritualistic, regressive, and barbaric place. Linking such shithole place to highly developed Greek and Roman civilizations required a leap of faith beyond the imagination of make believe Hollywood. If the West claims Greco-Roman heritage, probably the history of the highly develop Greek and Roman civilizations are fake news, hearsays, or manufactured consents in order to have a transition from a degenerated Greco-Roman civilization to degenerated medieval Dark Age Europe possible.

    Christianity is about love, equality, sharing, peace and forgiving. Yet since the European could sail outside of the Mediterranean Sea, the West’s real contribution to human civilisation is Land/Resource grab, colonisation of the entire planet. Genocide, massacres of natives of Americas, Australia/New Zealand. Inhuman, despicable Slave trade to sustain those colonies. Perpetration of extreme violence to retain & extract resources from colonies all over the world. And unprecedented mass killings AMONG WHITES THEMSELVES masqueraded as WORLD WARS over spoils of the entire world.

    Then we have HOLLOWCAST as small sideshow, Total Human killings of just last 100 years …. Staggering 180 million human. The West also invented the way to blow up the earth and exterminate all of us into radioactive ashes, making all our existence and civilizations to void and null. It is a total betrayal of Christianity.

    None of the three elements you mentioned fits the West in according to what they behave and what they are, such concept construct is a fraud by masters of delusions, who mistakenly think we don’t know nothing …

    • Replies: @1rw
    , @Sergey Krieger
    , @Malla
  100. denk says:

    It is not surprising therefore to see increased cooperation between the US and Indian Navies.

    Once a slave, always a slave.

    • LOL: TT
  101. denk says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I wrote for years now that Russia and US are natural allies, it is too bad that American “elites” are, for the most part, dumb as a stump

    Too bad !
    The anglos dont really consider slavs real whiteys.

    murikka has a G2 partner now.
    In case you havent noticed, its no more Asia-Pacific,
    The emperor has decree that from now on its the Indo-Pacific.
    The Indians are in cloud nine at the moment. !

    hhhh

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Andrei Martyanov
  102. Joe Wong says:
    @Randal

    Now or never, isn’t it? I guess the American should nip the bud before China grows more. NK crisis surely is a remake of Lusitania to launch a first strike against Russia and China I reckon. BTW have you build you bunker yet? You should know USA is a safe heaven and it is immune from war is a fallacy, a fool’s wishful thinking.

  103. Joe Wong says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Chinese submarines are driven by electromagnetic induction propulsion system, no propellers and no vibration from engines or steam turbines. Chinese submarines routinely trial US submarines weeks a time. PLAN said there were sexual abuse screams on the US nuclear submarines all the time, it is really inhuman for the life on US submarines.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  104. Joe Wong says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Perhaps Andrei Martyanov knows deep in his heart that Siberia and the Far East are never part of Russia, they are stolen land just like the North America and Australia are stolen lands.

  105. utu says:
    @AaronB

    My cautious hope is that ultimately the good side of China will prevail

    Chinese might be in long run more cautious than Jews because they have a lot of their own people and they play with them unlike the Jews who use other people as pawns so they are more reckless. However if their influence and power will grow they will develop the sense of impunity and will get arrogant and corrupted. Their moral inhibitions work differently than in the West and they will become superfluous once they get all powerful.

    Why drivers in China intentionally kill the pedestrians they hit

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.html

  106. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    Siberia and the Far East are never part of Russia, they are stolen land just like the North America and Australia are stolen lands

    You mean like Tibet, Xinjiang, and Formosa?

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    , @denk
  107. Joe Wong says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Yes, Russia can be Anglo’s natural allies, it only needs Russian to beg hard enough, Boris Yeltsin hasn’t begged hard enough, bent low enough and licked the boots bright enough.

  108. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    Yes, Russia can be Anglo’s natural allies, it only needs Russian to beg hard enough

    The US doesn’t want Russia as an ally. The US wishes to take Russia apart, divide it into Corruptionistans headed by Poroshenkite puppets, who will take a commission on whatever the US and allies loot.

    Once Russia has been dismantled, NATO will move to the Chinese border. Once China has been strangled, or its elite bought off, it’ll be game over for the democratic nation state, in a world united under the Money Power.

    To deter the megalomaniac US, is why the Russians have developed a drone torpedo with a 100 megaton warhead salted with cobalt to totally destroy the United States East coast. A hundred megatons is 6 thousand times bigger than the Hiroshima bomb.

    The globalist psychopaths are leading the world to Hell.

  109. @Joe Wong

    The concept of property of the natives in Australia and the Americas was on par with that of animals in nature and was treated as such.

    Sad to say, much of the so-called civilized world is currently moving in that direction.

  110. Joe Wong says:
    @Greasy William

    Histroy and current reality caused Andrei having a emotional inferiority complex.

  111. AaronB says:
    @utu

    Utu, you’ve become incredibly cynical since I’ve known you on this site. I understand the temptation, and I hope it is just a phase, because I know you are better than this nonsense, and on the side of the angels ultimately, whether you admit it or not. Your incredibly smart comments on IQ are a help to us all.

    The Chinese now have taken a bad path, and I’m not naive about tnat, but there is an incredible amount of good in Chinese culture , and we can all hope that that ultimately prevails, and it’s stupid not to realise that the current Chinese path is largely a result of their traumatic encounter with the West .

    Whether the Chinese can overcome that is open to doubt, but we can all hope that they can, and rejoice in any indications that they are.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  112. Malla says:
    @denk

    That is not a slave, it is a servant being paid a salary, you fool.

    • Replies: @denk
  113. Joe Wong says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan, Vietnam, and many other places have long history tangled with China culturally and economically in a normal process of building a country; unlike the White invaded and stole the North America and Australia uninvited, unwanted and with atrocity and organized violence. You should know there is a big difference between incorporating with partners and occupying thru stealing and robbing with organized violence.

  114. V says:
    @Beckow

    [It's extremely bad practice to essentially repeat the same very long comment on multiple different threads. If you continue behaving in this manner, all your future comments may get trashed.]

    It is heading towards a confrontation. The first step of dehumanising and demonising the ‘enemy’ has been done – in the West almost totally, I don’t know about Russia.

    The meme of a future war between the US and Russia has been out there for a long time, since at least 1853. The below are excerpts from an at the time widely reviewed geo-political book published in the United States called The New Rome; or, the United States of the World. The gist of the book is that a future newly created US/UK bloc is to first conquer the center of power upon continental Europe, Germany, and then immediately after that proceed to go after Russia. It’s all to conclude with the US having a global empire, the ‘New Rome’. What I wonder though is if in some Russian library somewhere there is a long forgotten dust covered book from the 19th century that says almost exactly the same thing, but with Russia being the one that creates a global empire for itself.

  115. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    You should know there is a big difference between incorporating with partners and occupying thru stealing and robbing with organized violence.

    Yes, tell that to the Tibetans, the Uyghurs, and countless others presently or in the past subject to Chinese ethnic cleansing, or oppression, e.g.:

    The Destruction of Ethnic Identity: The Uyghur People Fight for Freedom in the Shadow of Chinese Oppression

    and

    Uyghur Muslims: Victims of the World’s Largest Ethnic Cleansing.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @denk
    , @Joe Wong
  116. V says:
    @Michael Kenny

    Many good points but, in a general way, I think the author seriously underestimates the role of airpower in modern warfare…Any US – Russian war would almost certainly be mainly an air war..

    The almost exact same point you’ve made was made in an 1853 geo-political book published in the United States entitled The New Rome. What I don’t understand is why almost no one knows of this book…though I have my suspicions.

    pg.155-156

    ‘It [air power] will give us the victory over Russian continentalism. American air-privateers will be down upon the Russian garrisons, to use our own expressive slang, ‘like a parcel of bricks’…

    The New Rome; or, the United States of the World – 1853

    We are on the eve of aerial navigation…

    The first four acts already past,
    A fifth shall close the drama with the day;
    Time’s noblest offspring is the last.

    The sea is less confined than the river, the ocean more ubiquitous than the sea, but the air alone is fitted for a universal civilization. Its shores are every where; it can penetrate the poles ; it will settle the wilds of Tartary and the valleys of Central Africa. It will know no harbors and no ports, no depots and no entrepots. It will make all parts of the earth alike passable and alike accessible. It will give us the victory over Russian continentalism. Freedom is now limited to the oceanic world, to England and America ; Russia, with its continental dependencies, is despotic ; it has no ships, and therefore no freedom ; no freedom, and therefore no navy; having no navy, it can never do great injury to the seafaring world. But its despotism gives it an army, and its army will protect its despotism. The seafaring nations, on the other hand, have their navy to protect their freedom, but they will never have a large standing army to extend their system. To suppose this, would be to deny every leading characteristic of Americanism. This would keep the two halves of the world in a state of perpetual isolation, did not the navigation of the air restore them to a common element. American air-privateers will be down upon the Russian garrisons — to use our own expressive slang — ” like a parcel of bricks ;” and the Russian serfs will fasten to their skirts, and be elevated to a share in their liberties.

    Compare the above excerpt from pg 155-156 of the 1853 New Rome book referencing US/UK domination of the sea and air with something written about the modern Russian Alexander Dugin below. A person might begin to think that these things were being manipulated between the US and Russia. Dugin’s theories foresee an eternal world conflict between land and sea, and hence, Dugin believes, the U.S. and Russia.

    Are the peoples of the world being played on a mass scale?

    Dugin’s theories foresee an eternal world conflict between land and sea, and hence, Dugin believes, the U.S. and Russia. He says, “In principle, Eurasia and our space, the heartland Russia, remain the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution.” According to his 1997 book, The Basics of Geopolitics, “The new Eurasian empire will be constructed on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal [anarchic] values to dominate us. This common civilizational impulse will be the basis of a political and strategic union.”

    https://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/the_new_rome_or_the_united_states_of_the_world_1853

    https://archive.org/details/newrome00poes

    https://archive.org/details/politicalprophec00goe

  117. WHAT says:
    @Joe Wong

    Gotta love how zipperheads readily adopt SJW bullshit when it suits their purpose. You know what, come and get it. Last time you tried, your losses were what, 800 hundred dead gooks to 60 white people wounded? It will be far worse(or should I say better) next time around: Steel Belt is there, waiting, if you catch my drift.

  118. @AaronB

    Utu, you’ve become incredibly cynical since I’ve known you on this site.

    Spend more time at Unz, you’ll also gain the Misanthropy achivement.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Joe Wong
  119. V says:
    @Beckow

    In all EU countries the media is in a silly Russia is a threat and ‘everything Russian is evil’ phase.

    Everyone’s being conditioned. And of course in the US the hysteria regarding Russia has been going on much longer than in Europe.

  120. 1rw says:
    @Joe Wong

    Maybe you misunderstand Christianity?

  121. denk says:
    @utu

    Chinese might be in long run more cautious than Jews because they have a lot of their own people and they play with them unlike the Jews who use other people as pawns

    Elaborate. !

    so they are more reckless. However if their influence and power will grow they will develop the sense of impunity and will get arrogant and corrupted. Their moral inhibitions work differently than in the West and they will become superfluous once they get all powerful.

    Anglos/Indians believe in Might Is Right.
    Worse still, they always project their own mind set onto others, therein lies the trouble, they always imagine someone is here to usurp their throne so they’ve to strike out first !

    hhhhhh

    P.S.
    1] Are you saying that some drivers allegedly killed their victims prove that China would be the next evil empire. :?

    2] How credible is that link ?
    hint] see my reply to canspacey.

  122. Wally says:
    @Anonymous

    was stated:
    “The pace of Russian construction of ice-breakers for year-round operation of this ice route, now greatly mitigated by climate change

    Seriously, is the author really a True Believer in the left’s fake ‘climate change’?

    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe
  123. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    FFS
    TW was part of China before the jp robbed it in 1898 .

    Get this into your thick skull,
    Even tho China claims rightful sovereignty over TW there aint no PLA troops occupying the island and raping TW lass like what the illegit murkkans do in Okinawa./Jeju/Ph.. etc etc/

    BTW,
    Are You saying that cuz the Mongols/Manchus took Tibet/Xinjiang in the 15c so the Czar was entitiled to take Siberia and the anglos to take
    USA/Canada/Hawaii/Puerto Rico/Guam./Diego Garcia/ Okinawa./Jeju/ Oz/NZ……ETC ETC ?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  124. denk says:
    @Malla

    When the entire India was under British rule,
    Every Indian was a slave, moron.

    May be the Indians think clipping the whitey’s toe nails was an honorable
    profession,’

    hhhhhhh

    • Replies: @Malla
  125. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Any imbecile can post a link but that proves nuthin my dear !

    Be educated,
    this is what I call real evidence,
    insider info on murkkan sponsored terrorism,

    https://truthandshadows.wordpress.com/2017/06/19/manufactured-migrants/

  126. @Beckow

    No idea where these figures come from.
    Of course, the contiuing anti Russia propaganda has effect, such as accusing Putin of the MH370 disaster, without ever proving anything.
    Many here no longer believe anything our politicians say.
    Nevertheless, I think the Ukraine referendum is more dependable than any poll.
    I never meet anyone who sees Russia as a military threat.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  127. @RadicalCenter

    This shows that not all of us approve of Islamisation

    http://nieuws.tpo.nl/2018/01/18/terroristisch-rechts-verzet-laat-onthoofde-pop-moskee-amsterdam-noord/

    A decapitated puppet posed at an Amsterdam mosque

  128. Che Guava says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Thanks for reply. Your analysis of ships and boats seems accurate, as for the ships, when I see them, clear reliance on US designs is annoying to me.

  129. JL says:
    @Greasy William

    All Russian military personnel, past and current, that I have ever known are like this. For some reasons I know, and many others I don’t, there is a strong cultural Sinophobia that runs through the Russian armed forces. They seem to have much more respect for, and trust of, their American counterparts. Perhaps this is a good thing (for Russia) as it will provide a counterbalance to the political leadership as it increasingly orients itself towards China economically. On the other hand, it could also serve as an impediment in the event that a true military crisis emerges and the two must fully align to survive.

  130. @polskijoe

    The killer is liberal capitalism. Growing children had become too expensive. population was growing every year since 1946 then suddenly starting 1992 it started collapsing along with birth rates. Coincidence?

  131. @Joe Wong

    It is capitalism. Didn’t Marx tell that for 300% return there is no crime capitalist won’t hesitate to commit.There certainly was far higher rates of return than 300% hence crimes were in line to returns. Note that the time what you have described Europe was in early stages of capital accumulation. Note that Romans for example would never hurt civilians if those surrendered and offered no resistance. Also note that ancient Greeks and Romans basically considered all humans equal.

  132. @Joe Wong

    Wrong, Russia and USA can be natural allies when USA is cut to regional status… It will be also interesting to see who will be doing the begging part.

  133. @Joe Wong

    I suppose most of what constitutes China now is a stolen land too. And Europe most of it. Life is life. Weak who cannot defend own land from strangers lose it. Deep in your heart you know that Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjian , heck even Sichuan and Guangzhou are not really China. Chinese stole most of what constitutes China now from aboriginal populations.

  134. @Joe Wong

    You are a total idiot. Siberia is a stolen land? From whom? Siberia was always virgin land.
    And most of Siberia is still a virgin land where human still do not have a footprint.
    Russians were the least aggressive Slavic tribe who were pushed to utmost north, but they never new that it will be to their benefit, Now they are reaping the benefit of their mild character. The largest area of surface of the earth full of immense riches of natural resources extent of which is still not determined. For Russians it is like gift from God being docile and accommodating.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  135. Yee says:

    CanSpeccy,

    “Yes, tell that to the Tibetans, the Uyghurs, ”

    Tibet and Xinjiang has been Chinese territory for hundreds of years, thousands on and off in Xinjiang’s case.

    For every separatist, there’re far more patriotic Tibetans and Uyghurs to out number them. Lies of the West changes nothing.

    You wouldn’t believe how many Tibetans still have Mao’s picture on their walls.

    Tibetan children salute passing by army vehicles.

    http://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_png/roTTReeZzKUCRWWJQDrDmo8dNk2fJqe1aicG4ZHTI8dUmsJ6g5kmiakltIlYtDwFSuKx6yXM7UVKLVribhGfsPpibA/640?wx_fmt=png&tp=webp&wxfrom=5&wx_lazy=1

    Uyghur villagers helping police hunt down terrorists.

    Elderly Uyghur lady visit Mao’s
    Memorial hall with family.

    http://img.sogoucdn.com/net/a/05/link?appid=100520033&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.china.cn%2Fattachement%2Fjpg%2Fsite1000%2F20160121%2Fb8aeed9904ac180a780942.jpg&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.china.com.cn%2Fnewphoto%2Fnews%2F2016-01%2F21%2Fcontent_37627894_3.htm

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  136. @Joe Wong

    You are a child. Those are simply synchronous motors driven by batteries, certainly not invented by Chinese.
    These are regular diesel powered submarines certainly not invented by Chinese. Germans did have them in WW2 Batteries have to be regularly charged by Diesel motors.
    How come people on this site swallow your idiotic nonsense.
    I do realize that people on this site are not really technical people but even thous should recognize that you are spewing total nonsense.
    Objects in water can be driven by propeller, water stream, or air stream.
    Some Russian torpedoes are driven by airstream

  137. Yee says:

    Birds, bears, hares and fish, give Russia her fondest wish…

    The whole world knows, Russians’ fondest wish is to be accepted by the West. But until Russia become Canada of Europe, that’s not happening. The author’s prided Russian military is precisely what stands in the way.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  138. Mr. Hack says:
    @Joe Wong

    You should know there is a big difference between incorporating with partners and occupying thru stealing and robbing with organized violence.

    Other than being an easier proposition for the co-opting invading ‘partner’, I don’t see much of a difference. Local Ukrainian elites were eliminated, cajoled, bribed and even coddled by Russian imperial forces for centuries to become a part of a future Russian empire, and look where that dream is today?…

  139. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    Europe was indeed an ignorant, superstitious, enslaved, ritualistic, regressive, and barbaric place.

    So was most of the world. Indeed many other parts of the world was even worse. In many ways Medieval Europe was more advanced then other parts of the world.

    Yet since the European could sail outside of the Mediterranean Sea, the West’s real contribution to human civilisation is Land/Resource grab, colonisation of the entire planet. Genocide, massacres of natives of Americas, Australia/New Zealand. Inhuman, despicable Slave trade to sustain those colonies. Perpetration of extreme violence to retain & extract resources from colonies all over the world.

    Take you communist propaganda elsewhere. Yes bad things were done but a lot more good things done as well by European colonization.

    Then we have HOLLOWCAST as small sideshow, Total Human killings of just last 100 years …. Staggering 180 million human.

    The holocaust is disputed. Let us talk about how many millions Communism killed.

    The West also invented the way to blow up the earth and exterminate all of us into radioactive ashes, making all our existence and civilizations to void and null. It is a total betrayal of Christianity.

    And the rest of the world wants that technology too. The rest of the world shameless uses the technology of the west but will keep on hating on the west. Such shameless behaviour is beyond disgust.

  140. Joe Wong says:

    You have forgotten to mention Dalai Lama and Tibetan self-immolation stories too. Uyghur ISIS and Dalai Lama clique are CIA and MI6 creations for their eternal ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘imperialist’ conquest. They are the evidence why the Anglo is the dark side of humanity.

    Fabricating narrative in accordance with their evil minds is Anglo’s Forte, racism is their creation, no one is surprised they are creating fake news to cause chaos around the world.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @CanSpeccy
  141. @denk

    Too bad ! The anglos dont really consider slavs real whiteys.

    I think those “Anglos” who do not consider Slavs as “whiteys” better check their current “whitey” status–doesn’t look white to me. But that is beyond the point, the issue at hand is could “Anglos” remain European in essence, if not–they are done. So far, I see very few redeeming factors in all that.

    • Replies: @denk
  142. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    It seems you have two arguments to support the claim that commercial aviation technology in Russia is world class.

    1) Russian military aviation technology is world class and since there are similarities between military and civilian aviation, Russia’s commercial aviation tech should also be world class.

    2) In the near future, Russia will manufacture a narrow body airliner that is world class. Even though it may not sell abroad, it’s still world class. Besides, exports were a secondary consideration.

    My response to 1): Just because there are some similarities between a military plane and commercial airliner doesn’t lend much credence to your claim about commercial aviation in Russia as cutting edge.

    To 2): Just because you declare repeatedly that the industry is world class doesn’t mean it is. A poor showing in export markets for the MC-21 (which you seem to already anticipate) is evidence that Russia’s commercial aviation technology is inferior to counterparts.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Andrei Martyanov
  143. @Pisa2016

    In a way you are correct. But I was speaking conceptually about long distances.
    I did not consider loading and unloading. I also did not talk about influence of type and volume of transferred material. (Sometime I am lazy and I do not like to write a long comment)
    Naturally loading and unloading is a complex process and cost of it is a significant part of cost of the product.

    Bulk materials, liquids. and liquefied, gases will probably stay in Ship transfer domain for a long time.
    But gods, non perishable and perishable will be more economically transferred by trains.

    Long long time ago I was working on feasibility study of containerization of transfer of Goods.
    The idea was that to make a wagons flatbed with attachment fitting the container.
    Also to design trailers for trucks to fit the same container. In this case unloading of wagons would one simple move by train, The cost savings would be immense.

    I am quite confident that this idea will be implemented here on silk road.

  144. @German_reader

    Unfortunately it’s far from clear imo that this is indeed happening.

    I’ll give you one example: IIRC in 2007 Bundestag passed the law which forbade any German industrial plant which is in any way connected to Germany’s military-industrial complex (and that is rather a large number) to have less than 51% of German capital. No matter how one looks at it, but that pretty much covers most of metallurgy, machine-building complex and ship-building. Smart move. Now, if a treasonous force such as Greens could be thrown out of Germany’s political life… but…

    • Replies: @German_reader
  145. @Pisa2016

    I am quite confident that this idea will be implemented here on Silk Road.
    I am also imagining that each participating country will have its own trains,

    Continuation.

    Two gas turbines drive today’s modern trains. These types are also used for helicopters. I was working at Pratt & Whitney redesigning prototype of this engine for testing purposes. Shaft of this engine is running at 30 thousand RPM. Specifications for bearings of this engine are several pages. Nobody else can make these bearing than SKF.
    Lubrication and cooling apparatus is twice as large as turbine itself.

    Anyway I do envisage that each participating country will have its own trains with its own wagons, and will have its own loading and unloading system.
    But there also must be some standardization also.
    I also presume that will be two line system. I do also presume that this system will have a ground priority. This means that in every existing crossing by road or rail must be on bridge.
    There will be lots of work to be done in Europe.

    BTW. I did walk on stairs of Pisa straight to the top.
    You cant do it anymore

  146. @polskijoe

    If the EU breaks, I see the Visegrad countries siding more with US then Russia.

    Debatable at best, although by all means not impossible. But if Visegrad Group formalizes itself as military-political-economic alliance, which is definitely possible at some point of time, let’s remember one teeny-weeny fact, which is usually completely omitted in any “Western” considerations. Since the collapse of the Warsaw Pact Visegrad nations, especially Poland, were literally pumped with cheap or highly privileged credit and some aid from NATO. It was to make from them a shiny facade for new “democracies”. 2020 is the time, however, when a lot of that credit is due to be paid back. We are talking here about very not-trivial sums. This is a major geopolitical factor. Russia, on the other hand, doesn’t really care that much about Visegrad affiliation, since Russia’s main economic interest in Europe are Germany and Netherlands. Once Nord Stream II is ready, well, as events with Ust-Luga Port and bypassing of Baltic States demonstrates beautifully–Russians are not interested, and act in a very healthy economically selfish manner. So, it is not up to Russians what affiliation Visegrad Group will choose and Russians are content with that.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  147. Yee says:

    OBOR hasn’t started for real yet, and it won’t in any hurry. It’s just a seed planted at the moment. Because, like a commenter above said, the US will be pulling “loose threads” along the way, and China is not strong enough to stable the far away loose threads. Trying to do the impossible will bring down the whole game.

    Most realistic part is Southeast Asia, that’s where China is putting most efforts. Europe is waaaay down on the list, because not only the US, but also Russia will be pulling loose threads.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    , @TT
  148. Avery says:
    @Anonymous

    {A poor showing in export markets for the MC-21 (which you seem to already anticipate) is evidence that Russia’s commercial aviation technology is inferior to counterparts.}

    Not necessarily, because technological parity, inferiority, or superiority does not necessarily predict or guarantee commercial success. I don’t know about aviation technology, but I know of lots of examples in computer industries where a better technology just did not gain commercial traction.

    Boeing and Airbus have been in the commercial aviation business for a long time.
    They have a solid reputation of producing excellent, cutting edge aircraft.
    And they are not sitting on their laurels.
    Russians and Chinese have no experience in commercial/consumer markets.
    Their own internal markets also have tremendous (bad) influence on their mindset.

    West has had stiff competition for consumer products for decades: customers expect price&quality.
    Russia has the legacy of USSR, where people had to buy whatever (junk) was produced by the State: there was no choice.

    So Russia will probably find some niche markets for its commercial aircraft, but it will find it very tough to compete with Boeing or Airbus head-to-head. Same with the China.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  149. @Andrei Martyanov

    You are absolutely correct. In a plain language Russia does not give a shit.
    But Russia reciprocates if it is approached like as in case of Hungary.
    No country likes dictates from other country or institution like it was under Soviet rule or like it is now under Brussels rule.
    Euro and Nato inevitably will fall apart. It is only question of time.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  150. @Yee

    OBOR in some Slavic languages means Giant.

    Subnote.
    Austrians have rail making trains and developed process to lay down rails totally without any labor participation. Few systems of this kind can lay down all silk road in no time.

  151. @Anonymous

    Just because you declare repeatedly that the industry is world class doesn’t mean it is.

    Well, it does. Especially when one considers a very simple fact that I am US commercial aerospace industry insider and am well acquainted with ins and outs of it. So, how to put–you may pretend to rationalize whatever you want but unless you deals with what drives commercial aviation, you cannot have any competent opinion on any of this issues other that reading it from crappy “economic” magazines. And that is why:

    A poor showing in export markets for the MC-21 (which you seem to already anticipate) is evidence that Russia’s commercial aviation technology is inferior to counterparts.

    This phrase, which is a distilled BS, shows how detached you are from anything professional, here are the reasons why:

    1. MC-21 can not have any “showing” in markets precisely for it being right now in a third phase of flight testing for 001, other 5 test flight aircraft, including continuous testing of static air frame, are either ready or getting ready.

    2. If you think that 175 firm prepaid orders plus another around 180 options (so, around 350 aircraft for starters–not too shabby), many of them in transition to firm, by Russian carriers are not “market” then you are obviously have no idea what are you talking about, but that was clear from the get go.

    3. Again, educate yourself on Soviet commercial aviation before trying to pretend that you have a clue. That is not to mention that you didn’t answer my question about specific similarity between B-787 and MC-21. I will disclose this now: it is a “black wing”, which is a carbon-fiber vacuum infused wing, which, in the class of narrow body mid-range aircraft class exists only on MC-21. B-787 is the other one, albeit in a long range category.

    I am not going to waste anymore time explaining to you what it means to design a wing, its complex mechanics and then produce it out composites, including wing-to-body , including composite empennage. But if you didn’t know, much of the wing–the most complex integral part of aircraft–for B 787 was developed in… Moscow. Get educated and don’t try to impress anyone here with “market” BS. Russian airspace industry is one of the leaders in commercial aviation and is the leader in military one. I am not going to talk here about titanium and what it takes to work on it. But in general, have a nice life.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  152. Pisa2016 says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    [Quote]https://www.rbth.com/business/2017/08/24/how-boeing-and-airbus-use-russias-expertise-to-develop-their-airplanes_827604

    Here is just a little taste. But ask yourself a question what is common (and crucially a lot) between B-787 and MC-21? And why it is so?[/quote]

    This is meaningless since boeing has research and development centers in china, india etc…

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2010-10/21/content_11440455.htm

    Just because boeing has r&d in Russia doesn’t mean the mc-21 is as good as a boeing 787

    The mc-21 hasn’t even passed FAA certifications and has no overseas orders, they don’t even have verified specs

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  153. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Agree. But majority of people are absolutely not in sync with a gigantic and rather fast change in MOs of major geopolitical players. Well, some US law-makers call Russia Soviet Union still.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  154. Pisa2016 says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Your entire reply is meaningless rhetoric, Inf is irrelevant because Russia has broken the treaty, and it never applied to countries other than the us and Russia

    You have never addressed how surface ships are supposed to deal with land launched intermediate range ramjets or ICBMs

    Numerous military strategists have already said that a naval war between the us and china would lead to sea denial for both sides google “A2/AD”

    Likewise nuclear war mentions are meaningless rhetoric.

    Any US ship would be blown away before they can get in range to strike china land targets.

  155. The gradually escalating ratio of noise to signal comments is making me wonder if Unz comments have finally merited astroturfing from the usual actors. If so, hello there, Correct The Record!

  156. @Twodees Partain

    Agreed.

    “I ain’t got nuthin against them Russians. No Russian ever called me deplorable”.

  157. @Robert Magill

    Also remember they’ve taken over a big container port in Sri Lanka (99 year lease), bang on the Cape of Good Hope route, and bought control of Piraeus, main port in Greece.

  158. @Pisa2016

    Just because boeing has r&d in Russia doesn’t mean the mc-21 is as good as a boeing 787

    Boeing’s engineering office in Moscow is the largest Boeing’s operation abroad. But that is beyond the point:

    This is meaningless since boeing has research and development centers in china, india etc…

    No it is not, once one have a professional opinion of Chinese commercial and military aviation–it is grossly sub par. At best–it is mediocre.

    The mc-21 hasn’t even passed FAA certifications and has no overseas orders, they don’t even have verified specs

    Again, you want to tell fairy tales about “overseas orders”, try college girls from your neighborhood. Just to illustrate to you all this “markets” BS. Educate yourself for warmup with this:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2011/02/28/how-boeing-won-the-tanker-war/#285079263d49

    I know what was happening in the State of Washington and how Congress got involved in a rather scandalous reversal of contract with EADS.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/business/25tanker.html

    Really, it is becoming tiresome with you and other anonymous fanboys trying to preach here “markets” gospel not understanding even basics. So, in order for me not to waste time answering utterly ignorant questions and statements:

    Airspace is one of those very few enclosed technological cycles which defines national power. Currently, there are only three nations and one conglomerate (EU) which can, completely out of own resources, R&D, design and built modern commercial and combat aircraft. These nations are:

    1. USA
    2. Russia
    3. China, which is not in the same league. When it will get there–I will inform everyone here.

    In general, any nation defends its aerospace market and rightly so. Except, of course, Russia of 1990s (for obvious reasons) and China which does not and cannot produce competitive commercial aircraft design. But that is another matter altogether.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @Joe Wong
    , @FB
  159. @Andrei Martyanov

    What about France, India and Sweden ?
    Moreover, the USA JSF still is unable to fly.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  160. @Robert Magill

    Game over! A shipment now sent from London goes to Beijing directly by rail.

    Since it is difficult to answer such broad and uneducated statements, let’s do a simplest calculation (which also will explain why China builds a massive cargo fleet).

    Say, crude (just for the sake of argument). A single train–three pullers and about, say 100 cisterns.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-oil-train-new-data-met-20150403-story.html

    They give us an average 700 barrels per car. That is 70 000 barrels per train. It is very roughly 8000 tons of crude. Well, now we can compare. An LR-1 (Long Range) tanker can haul up to 610 000 barrels of crude. That is almost 9 times (or nine full trains of crude) in usually well protected waters of NSR (it also cuts the time by 9 days compared to “southern” route). Containers:

    Longest (up to 200 cars) trains can haul up to 400 containers, container ship can carry up to 7500 40 foot and 15 000 20 foot containers. So, here it is. Sea routes will remain as importnat as ever, in fact–even more so in the future.

  161. @Andrei Martyanov

    Correct! But here is a fact. Russians always remembered and always will remember their 26 million dead in WW3. Their attention to military and weapons progress have never wavered, and it will never waiver..
    So maybe of couple of years under Yeltsin it moved slightly behind in sequence of priorities , but that was quickly re- compensated under Putin.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    , @Joe Wong
  162. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    I beg everybody’s pardon. Typo WW2

  163. Joe Wong says:
    @Avery

    Please refrain from comparing Russia or USA to China, Russia and USA are declining while China is rising. Russian and American like to claim they are the world class or the world best by bad mouthing China, but has no substance to support their claim as demonstrated by the Russian bloggers here, who have a lot rhetoric.

    Even China is surpassing Russian and American in aerospace technologies, the Russian and American are still dwelling in the 50s to claim their superiority.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Avery
  164. @jilles dykstra

    What about France, India and Sweden ?

    Neither of them, with the exception of France who is a very big shot in Airbus, which is EU project, have viable commercial aviation program. Gripen is a superb fighter but that is the extent of current Swedish aerospace capability. India, IIRC, recently ran into the, yet again, troubles with their Tejas. India flies mostly Soviet/Russian combat jets and will likely fly in addition Rafale. Commercially, it is all two big ones. Many people mention Embraer (just to illustrate)–but in essence it is an air frame manufacturer, everything else, from avionics to engines is foreign. It cannot be otherwise–Brazil doesn’t produce these crucial elements and instead of developing them (doubtful, but still) it allows foreign players to equip Embraers primarily to make its entrance into international market easier. Very much along the lines of SSJ idea, with a major exception for a Saturn-Snecma engines.

    • Replies: @Den Lille Abe
  165. @Andrei Martyanov

    One container of say car parts is quite another matter, or two cars per container.
    There was just the choice between water and air.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  166. Joe Wong says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Get rid of Putin, and get the Goldman Sachs and Co. back in again to give Russia another shock therapy modernization treatment, they will help Russian to get MC-21 pass FAA certification. American and Russian are natural allies, aren’t they? The American won’t screw the Russian, right?

  167. @Andrei Martyanov

    Say, crude (just for the sake of argument). A single train–three pullers and about, say 100 cisterns.

    I didn’t realize that much crude was being shipped out of London. Thanks for the heads up.

    What’s the tonnage comparisons of bed pillows and mattresses?

  168. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Do you mean aaron or utu?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  169. Joe Wong says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Yes, the Russian will never waver on their military and weapons development, so thus the great USSR patriots. Please carry on with teh great Tsar or USSR tradition. BTW there are a lot cutbacks in military aerospace programs in Russia due to financial constrains lately.

  170. @Joe Wong

    50 cents has been deposited into your account.

    • Replies: @anon
  171. @jilles dykstra

    There was just the choice between water and air.

    There is–cargo ships haul enormous quantities of goods to hubs. From there–there are trains and trucks. This is a pretty stable configuration now for at least 50 years. So, not only the game is “not over” for sea routs (yeah, right, almost 90% of the global trade is moved by the sea) but, as it is the case with LNG–they become even more important. In the end, in the case of China and Russia, and Russia and Europe, all pipe-lines are a form of transportation. So, in general, transport infrastructure is a very complex thing and there is also no denial of China’s colossal commercial shipping construction and acquisition.

    http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/china-owned-ships-fleet-expansion-accelerates/

    So, no signs of any “game over”.

    One container of say car parts is quite another matter, or two cars per container.

    Reasonable question but let’s calculate:

    200 rail cars (this is maximum possible), 400 containers x 2 cars=800 cars per train. Up to 8500 cars per ship:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/automobiles/around-the-world-with-5500-cars.html

    Math, speaks for itself. Factor of 10. It is an order of magnitude per shipment.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  172. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Yee

    Tibetan children salute passing by [Chinese] army [of occupation] vehicles.

    LOL

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  173. Joe Wong says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Funny, Russians always say “I am not going to waste anymore time explaining to you” my words is final, and I have no patience for debate. It seems the Russian and the Anglo are alike, both of them insist “my words must be taken as given truth.” If you don’t then bombing, killing and waterboarding is the treatment until you do, by the way bombing, killing and waterboarding is with good intention the Russian and the American said.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  174. @Robert Magill

    What’s the tonnage comparisons of bed pillows and mattresses?

    I am not into the business of procurement of pillows and mattresses–I merely use them–but I am sure there is some formula for that too.

  175. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @denk

    Get this into your thick skull

    A thick skull is probably an asset, since there clearly something more solid than an idea that you would like to put through my skull.

    Having, in the course of a long life, worked for Chinese, worked with Chinese, taught Chinese, employed Chinese, I can say that, at their best, the Chinese display the best of that which humanity is capable.

    But it is remarkable and sad to see representatives of China, the world’s oldest intact empire, hypocritically raging against the atrocities committed by European empires, while defending the ongoing atrocities of the Communist bully boys in Beijing.

    • Replies: @ThatDamnGood
  176. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    It seems the Russian and the Anglo are alike…

    What do you know about the “Anglo,” Joe? Indeed, what is the Anglo? I guess I’m an Anglo, since I was born in England of English descent since at least the eleventh century. But in what way does that make me “like a Russian,” or in your estimate, “a person with not patience for debate”?

    Or is it that when you say “Anglo,”you mean “American”? If so, you should say what you mean. Americans, in the vast majority, are not Anglos. There are more Irish in America than English, and there are more Germans in America than Irish, and there are more colored people in America, yourself included probably, than people of pure European, let alone English, descent in America.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  177. Kiza says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I know that you had noble intentions yet I had great chuckles reading your plan point by point. But would it not have been easier to say – we need to turn all our policies by 180 degrees – that is turn them into the opposite direction? Then the next naive question is how did we end up with all our policies in the wrong direction? Are there any vested interests which drove them to be such? How strong are those interests?

    Simply, it would be so easy to make the World right if the vested interests could be overcome.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  178. @CanSpeccy

    But there is a difference between being made a colony at gunpoint vs being made an autonomous region at gunpoint. :p

    At least to me.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  179. Beckow says:
    @jilles dykstra

    the Ukraine referendum is more dependable than any poll

    I agree, but that was a more complex issue. I think the round-the-clock propaganda in the West is working. As if they are trying to get people ready for something big. Otherwise, why do it?

  180. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:

    Anon from TN
    My two cents: interesting analysis, but too narrow and way too Europe-centric. Large chunks of Western Europe are in the process of committing suicide by “multi-culturalism”, so the value of Europe and its market 20 years from now is far from certain. The US is committing suicide in a different way, by overextending itself militarily, wasting huge resources, and getting deeper in debt. The author should look at other centers of power that will be important in 20-30 years. And I don’t mean Australia: it has small population, stupidly allies itself with the sinking US militarily, while becoming totally dependent on China economically. Culturally, Russia (likely with parts of Eastern Europe) and Latin America are becoming new Europe, and both will gain in strength. It is questionable whether Germany joins them and remains Europe, or sinks along with Britain, France, and the US. Another center is India, but it is hard to bet on it: a lot of potential, because of economic growth and non-Islamic culture, but many ways to miss the train, especially if it allies itself with the US to counter China. More certain current and future power center is Japan + Korea: both are culturally non-European, but both are anti-Chinese and strong technologically. I think this explains Putin’s overtures to them: discussions of gas/oil pipelines and bridges/tunnels to Hokkaido via Sakhalin, huge orders to South Korean shipbuilders for liquefied gas tankers, etc. However, the trade with Latin America still requires control of maritime lines, so the navy remains a factor.
    What does the equation look like with these players included?

  181. Yee says:

    CanSpeccy,

    Laugh all you want. Tibet has been occupyed since the Qing dynasty. If you think the Tibetans aren’t glad to rid off their serfdom under Dalai just because the Manchus has been replaced by Han, you’re gravely mistakened.

    Tibetans burning their serfdom papers.

  182. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @ThatDamnGood

    But there is a difference between being made a colony at gunpoint vs being made an autonomous region at gunpoint.

    Don’t know what you mean by “a difference.” Obviously there is a difference in the form of words, but what difference does it make on the ground in Tibet when there is a massive flood of Han Chinese settlers, in your autonomous region under the guns of the Chinese Commie bully boys in Beijing?

    • Replies: @ThatDamnGood
  183. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Kiza

    it would be so easy to make the World right if the vested interests could be overcome.

    Well, yes. And to do that, you first have to understand that the bastards are intent on destroying you.

    At present, most of the people of the Western nations haven’t a clue, either that they’ve been targeted for extinction, or that their pathetic PC virtue signalling proves how well they’ve been brainwashed to self-destruct. They are like Jews docilely lining up for the gas chambers.

    But nothing last forever, particularly in the political sphere. Americans may believe fake news today, but like the Russians under the Soviet tyranny, they will soon see the error of believing anything the elite have to say. Then the trouble starts — for the elite.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  184. Malla says:
    @denk

    Indians under British rule were a million times more free than Chinese under Mao.
    Under British rule there were Indian millionaires owning big mills and hiring British managers. Time to leave commie school and get back to reality.

  185. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    Uyghur ISIS and Dalai Lama clique are CIA and MI6 creations

    Just like black ‘revolutionaries’ in Angola, Rhodesia and Mozambique were communist creations supported by Communist Chinese and the Soviets with weapons and training.

    • Replies: @denk
  186. Joe Wong says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Uyghur Eastern Turkestan’s headquarters is in Washington, the “Uyghur” freedom fighters caught in China are Al-Quad affiliates and served in ISIS which is an CIA creation, a lot of those get caught in China are not Uyghurs but ME Islam extremist mercenaries who want to kill all infidels including the Americans.

    Dalai Lama was kidnapped by CIA and MI6 to exile, and the Tibetan exiles lived on CIA and NED funding.

    Apart from using the Uyghur and Tibetan outlaws as a weapons to continue their Anglo Empire expansion conquest, it is also serve the purpose in the new cold war against China to prevent a different idea emerged to show how bad the world under the hypocritical and regressive Anglo dominance in the last few hundred years.

    The American and their Western partners want to keep both Uyghur and Tibetan proxies going because they are good tools to divert attention from their own failure in dealing with multi-racial problems in their backyards due to their own flawed culture and civilization, i.e. the West and particular the Anglo is racist, xenophobia, selfish, feudal and zero-sum. Image how are you going to defend your people for all the wrong doings and crimes committed against peace and humanity in the last few hundreds of years without the Uyghur and Tibetan proxies.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  187. Yee says:

    Daniel,

    How come people of different nationalities can defend their own countries, but when Chinese do it, they must have been paid to do so?

    And who the hell would waste 50 cents on a non-mainstream website? No offense to Mr. Unz.

  188. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Thought so. Agree.

  189. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    Uyghur … are CIA and MI6

    Yeah, 11 million of them invented by the CIA and MI6. And they look like this, which is why the Commie imperialists in Beijing are flooding NW China with Han settlers.

    Joe, your doing a great job deconstructing Chinese Communist Imperialist propaganda.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  190. @Wally

    “The pace of Russian construction of ice-breakers for year-round operation of this ice route, now greatly mitigated by climate change”

    Seriously, is the author really a True Believer in the left’s fake ‘climate change’?

    Ships are passing through northerly routes, where they were once unable to pass (albeit mainly on a seasonal basis). This is simply a fact, irrespective of one’s opinion on the veracity of the whole Global Climate Change narrative.

  191. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    Laugh all you want:

    Thank you. I do laugh at the proposition that Tibetans prefer rule by foreign settlers who destroy their religious institutions and shrines, ruthless suppress dissent, and who ban the use of the Tibetan language in court, etc., than rule by their own people.

    Most Tibetans, I bet, would join with me if they weren’t to discouraged to laugh at their occupiers.

    But if you think the Tibetans like mass Han immigration, why doesn’t China conduct an internationally supervised referendum on the issue to reassure the world that the Tibetans love Chinese occupation.

  192. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    The American and their Western partners want to keep both Uyghur and Tibetan proxies going …

    Well obviously. The West doesn’t wish to see the world’s most populous nation, with arguably the world’s largest economy, continually expanding its empire, so the West joins with those whom the Chinese have occupied and ruthlessly oppress.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  193. Joe Wong says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I know about “Anglo” more than Edward Harper Parker knew about Chinese, or any China pundits on the internet as well as China Hands in the West know about China.

    Perhaps you define Anglo by blood linkage, but others may define Anglo differently, like based on their behavior, e.g. someone my appear non-Anglo, but they behave like Anglo, then they are Anglo in other people’s eyes. Mind you such arrogant and self-righteous attitude was created by the Anglo in the 18th and 19th centuries, and it is precedent for others to follow.

    BTW Tsar Nicholas II was Queen Victoria’s grandson, and Russians and Anglo are the royal subjects of their Monarchs, it is not too far to generalize the Russian and the Anglo are alike based on E H Parker’s standard of judgement.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  194. @Andrei Martyanov

    Now, if a treasonous force such as Greens could be thrown out of Germany’s political life… but…

    Unfortunately that’s a very large but, much of the German bourgeoisie is in thrall to postnational delusions. Hard power calculations (e.g. as in your example above measures to preserve the country’s industrial base, keeping energy supplies stable, or, very important imo, keeping out unassimilable foreigners) are alien to their way of thought, they take their security and relative prosperity for granted and think it’s a natural state of affairs, so they’re unable to even imagine the potential consequences of their deluded virtue-signaling. Real decadence imo, and I doubt people can be shocked out of it before it’s too late.

  195. Avery says:
    @Joe Wong

    I will kindly refrain from comparing, if you please refrain from fantasizing about China.
    You know, as in engaging in mythology?

    And as soon as China lands a human being on the Moon, I will stop comparing USA to China.
    And as soon as China produces something in the class of Sukhoi Su-57, I will stop comparing Russia to China.

    China mass-produces junk copied from others.
    All its aerospace and military technologies are minor improvements of Soviet era designs that Soviets freely gave to China in the communist honeymoon era.
    Or copies of US technology stolen from US or bought from Israel* **, our “ally” which has access to the best and most valuable of US military tech.
    What innovations has China come up with?
    Oh yeah, I forgot: ‘electromagnetic induction propulsion system’.
    Riiiight.

    This post of yours is proof that you have no clue about anything:

    [Chinese submarines are driven by electromagnetic induction propulsion system, no propellers and no vibration from engines or steam turbines. Chinese submarines routinely trial US submarines weeks a time. PLAN said there were sexual abuse screams on the US nuclear submarines all the time, it is really inhuman for the life on US submarines.]

    btw: US population in 1970 was 205 million.
    China’s population today is 1.4 BILLION.
    You have 5X the population, and presumably 5X the scientists/engineers.
    Still waiting for a Chinese man or woman to land on the moon.

    ______________________________
    *
    [ISRAEL SELLS ARMS TO CHINA, U.S. SAYS]

    http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/13/world/israel-sells-arms-to-china-us-says.html

    **
    [Israel accused of selling US secrets to China]

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-accused-of-selling-us-secrets-to-china-1510406.html

  196. Kiza says:
    @JL

    Even if we (other commenters) take your biased and trollish comment seriously, we have to note that Russia/Russian Military find themselves between the rock of Chinese love and the hard place of US love. Yet, we do have confidence that the Russians are big boys and girls and will successfully navigate between those two springs of ethereal love. This may be, if for no other reason then because, the Chinese are the allies (whilst US are choosing to make themselves the enemy) and the Russians do not need to be in love with their allies, only to find a common interest. Therefore, since you reside on the side of the self-declared enemy, you are obliged to perceive the healthy allied scepticism as Sinophobia. As if US trusts all its own “allies” unquestionably and unconditionally.

  197. Kiza says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Let us hope so.

    But let me pretend that I am smart and let me posit Kiza’s Second Law of Human Nature: whenever things are going in the wrong direction, first find out whose interest is pushing them in that direction, and only then try to change the direction.

    In other words, things never go in the wrong direction on their own.

    Pretty elementary I know.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  198. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    BTW Tsar Nicholas II was Queen Victoria’s grandson, and Russians and Anglo are the royal subjects of their Monarchs, it is not too far to generalize the Russian and the Anglo are alike

    So the Russian Tsar, who had hardly a drop of Russian blood, married a grandson of the English Queen, who had hardly a drop of English blood, which proves that an Englishman is the same as a Russian.

    Does this make sense to anyone? Maybe your aggressive co-propagandists for Chinese supremacy, Dunk, agrees.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  199. @Malla

    Colonialism in general is not black-and-white picture. There were horrors associated with it, there were also many positive effects, including not least such things as introduction of basic medical care, sanitary norms, education and modern administration to very many places, which otherwise would remain even today a back-water shitholes. Even Marxists (real ones, not this perverted Frankfurt School modern deviants) viewed colonialism in much more realistic terms. Just one example: as Friedrich Engels, hardly a Russophile, noted: “Despite her Slavic dirt and baseness, Russia still provides civilizing influence on her Middle Asia subjects.”(c) So, were Belgians committing atrocities in Kongo? Hell, yes. Did most India’s military top brass graduate Sandhurst? Hell, yes. I personally have no feeling of any guilt for, say, Russian colonialism. Albeit Russian colonialism always had this interesting flavor of developing subjects it conquered on a massive scale–enough to read late Hector Chevigny’s (a founder of University in Fairbanks, Alaska) “Russian America”. But then again, modern political system of India today is effectively a British one. Some African countries would still be utter mayhem if not for British or Dutch. OK, Afrikaners. Rhodesia used to be not necessarily a bad place, including for its black population. What happened to RSA, of course, is another example. The picture is complex and with many shades of… whatever;-))

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Malla
  200. @Yee

    This should be so obvious that it seems almost pointless to reply, but since you appear to be in good faith – because whataboutism and chest-pounding isn’t an epistemic virtue. It reduces dialogue to the equivalent of yelling at each other for real or perceived injustices largely stemming from emotions, a form of activity which chimpanzees have already mastered, I believe.

    Essentially it reduces dialogue into the equivalent of rivaling mental masturbation, which while rather fun for those actively engaging in it, does absolutely nothing to foster knowledge, understanding or learning and is embarrassing to watch. Nothing is gained from it, its just feeding an addiction for dopamine kicks.

    That “others do it” is a terrible justification. We aren’t lemmings(which, incidentally, do not actually actively commit suicide by mimicry).

  201. Joe Wong says:
    @CanSpeccy

    11 millions of them are not what the Anglo constructs and reconstructs them to be, they are more than equal partners in China, they enjoy more privileges than the Han Chinese in China. It is a good step for the Anglo to redeem their crimes against other people by following Chinese treating that 11 millions of them.

    • Replies: @Antox
  202. @Daniel Chieh

    You might like this, in your discussions about spirituality, etc.

    Very interesting piece. Thank you for making me aware of this trend. Definitely important.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  203. @Andrei Martyanov

    I wonder if things were so bad how come there are so many blacks in Africa and Uzbeks in Uzbekistan? These places never were quite populous until they got conquered.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  204. polskijoe says:
    @Joe Wong

    Central Asia, and some parts of North Asia (Siberia).
    were populated by IndoEuropeans, 2000-3000 years ago. Of course their were areas with Mongoloids too.
    then the Huns, and Mongols and Turks took over the land, and either killed or mixed with them.

    Instead to resorting to “who stole which land” focus on today.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  205. Joe Wong says:
    @Malla

    Quoting Indian compradors as the representative of Indian freedom under the British overlord rule? The depth of mental colonization of Indians by the British is astonishing, Indians indeed are “best slaves,” no wonder the British can rule hundreds of millions Indians with only few thousands of them.

    All the massacres the British thrust upon Indians must be for the benefits of Indians in your eyes, those bad Indians deserved to be butchered you must hailed. I guess you profoundly disapprove Mahatma Gandhi who wanted to worked with Nazi and unrepentant war criminal Japanese to kick the British out.

    It make sense now that the Indians see no contradiction in proclaiming they are largest democracy while maintaining inhumane caste system intact so they can abuse human beings by birth. Indians is funky double think, double talk morally defunct creatures, having toilets are not important buy spending billions to buy foreign weapons is.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
  206. Antox says:
    @Joe Wong

    what a bunch of bullshit

  207. @Sergey Krieger

    These places never were quite populous until they got conquered.

    Some self-hating lefties will say that it is because of the lack of contraception and will be only marginally right. Reality is, many of those places in Africa even in the end of 19th century were practicing this BS voodoo “medicine”, until those damn colonialists for a whole set of reasons started to teach those “cultures” how to wash hands, how to bathe, how to eat right, started to commit other atrocities such as opening hospitals, opening schools, oh goody–converting many to Christianity (we all know that tribal beliefs are the most advanced religious forms since..ever) and even educating and training locals in administrative, engineering, medical and even scientific fields. This is pure evil. Can you imagine how would those heirs of Timbuktu and of the African bush would have developed and surpassed those evil whiteys, if they wouldn’t colonize them. By now they surely would have built Moon settlements and landed on Mars. But then again, I can sense accusations of me being a rayciss coming;-)) As per Middle Asia–they are slowly turning back to their natural state.

  208. Malla says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Totally Agree. In addition, in India, British rule helped in the emancipation of lower caste Hindus from tyrannical Brahmanist rule and Hindus from tyrannical Islamic rule. In Africa European Empires put an end to slavery.

  209. @Joe Wong

    Ghandi supported the British against the Nazis and the Japanese.

  210. Joe Wong says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Come on, be a sport, Roman is not built in one day, you cannot change the Westerners’ stereotyping based on the Eurocentrism and Orientalism by just few lines of blogs or even few millions lines of blogs. The West took a couple of hundred years to plant their fabricated Eurocentrism and Orientalism deep in their culture as matter of fact, history, unquestionable believe and subconscious. It is long way to go to put wrong back to right, to expose the lies in their Eurocentrism and Orientalism, and the crimes they committed as humanitarian intervention, it is the only beginning of this long march struggle.

  211. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    [It would be much better not to have many different comment-threads devolve into very long disputes over India despite having only slight connection to the original articles.]

    Mental colonisation? Commie brain washing is astounding. The life of an average Indian was just as normal as it is in today’s free India. The British Raj never sent us to labour camps for ‘reeducation’
    nor restricted our movement within British India. There were more freedoms within British India for Indians than under any Communist government on earth. People lived their lives as they saw fit.

    It make sense now that the Indians see no contradiction in proclaiming they are largest democracy while maintaining inhumane caste system intact so they can abuse human beings by birth.

    You fool, the British Empire emancipated the lower castes against tyrannical rule of upper caste Hindus as well as all Hindus from brutal Islamic rule.

    Jyoti Rao Phule

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotirao_Phule

    Jyotirao Govindrao Phule[a] (11 April 1827 – 28 November 1890) was an Indian social activist, a thinker, anti-caste social reformer and writer from Maharashtra.[2][3]

    His work extended to many fields including eradication of untouchability and the caste system, women’s emancipation and the reform of Hindu family life. On September 1873, Phule, along with his followers, formed the Satyashodhak Samaj (Society of Seekers of Truth) to attain equal rights for people from lower castes. Phule is regarded as an important figure of the social reform movement in Maharashtra He and his wife, Savitribai Phule, were pioneers of women’s education in India.

    [MORE]

    http://egyankosh.ac.in/bitstream/123456789/20647/1/Unit-12.pdf

    British rule had brought to an end the tyranny and chaos of the regime of the last Peshwa in Maharashtra. The colonial rulers had not only established law and order but also the principle of equality before law. The earlier regime of Brahmin Peshwas had imposed strict limitations on education, occupation arid living standards of the lower castes and women. The new rulers opened the 1 opportunities in education and mobility in occupation for the members of all castes. Missionary schools and government colleges were ready to admit any student irrespective of caste origins. New ideas of equality and liberty could reach the moderately educated sections of the lower caste. Phule was probably the best product of this process. High caste reformers and leaders also had welcomed the colonial rule. It is not surprising that Phule who was concerned with the slavery of the lower castes also favoured British Rule He hoped that the new government which believes in equality between man and man would emancipate lower castes, from the domination of the Brahmins.
    The British rule opened up new employment opportunities in the administration. The political power at local level was also being given to the Indians. Phule who had worked as a member of the Poona Municipality could visualise how lower castes wouid be able to acquire power at local level during the period of British rule and also enter the colonial bureaucracy. He believed in Colonialism, Cast Order and the Tribal Societies the benevolent attitude of the British rulers towards the lower castes and therefore asked for a number of things from them. He was not sure how long the British rule would continue. Therefore, he wanted lower castes to exploit the opportunity and get rid of the tyranny of Brahmins. Brahmin rulers used to collect huge wealth out of taxes levied on poor lower castes population, but never used to spend even a paisa (penny, cent) for their welfare. On the contrary, the new regime was showing the signs of doing good things for the deprived people. Phule assured the colonial rulers that if the Shudras were made happy and contented, they need not worry about the loyalty of the subjects. He wanted the British government to abolish Brahmin Kulkarni’s position, and a post of village headman (Patil) filled on the basis of merit. In fact, Phule would have liked the British government to put an end to the balutedary system which was connected with caste specific occupations in the villages. He asked the government to make laws prohibiting customs and practices which gave subordinate status to women and untouchables. Phule wanted Brahmin bureaucracy to be replaced by non-Brahmin bureaucracy. But if the non-Brahmins were not available, the government should appoint, he thought, the British men to these posts. He believed that the British officers would take impartial view and were likely to side with lower castes.
    He knew that education had not yet percolated to the lower castes. The masses had not yet become politically conscious. The high caste elites were claiming that they were the true representatives of the people and therefore weie demanding political rights. This process, Phule thought, would reestablish the political supremacy of the high castes. Phule advised his followers from the lower castes not to participate the-movement for political rights. He argued that
    the Indian National Congress or other political associations were not national in the true sense of the term because they represented only high castes. Phule warned his followers against the selfish and cunning motives of the Brahmins in forming these associations and advised them to keep themselves away from such associations. In his Satya Shodhak Samaj, he had made it a rule not to discuss politics. In fact, we find that he had expressed more than once a complete and total loyalty towards the new government. He firmly believed that the almighty God had dethroned the tyrannical rulers and had established in their place a just, enlightened and peaceful British rule for the welfare of the masses.

    Also

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy

    “The Jews are only interested in themselves, and nobody else. They somehow contrive to have the rulers in their pocket, participate in governance and conspire to torture and suck the lives out of other citizens in order that they live (in comfort).” These blatantly anti-Jewish lines were penned on March 20, 1938.
    These are the next lines: “Are they not comparable to the Brahmins who too have no responsibility but have the rulers in their pocket, have entered the ruling dispensation and been lording over (all of us)?”

    This is Periyar E.V. Ramasamy writing in his magazine Kudiyarasu, and he is being unusually mild here. (Naan Sonnal Unakku Yen Kopam Vara Vendum, vol. 4, p. 532, compiled by Pasu. Gowthaman)

    In all his agitations – and he had many – the lowest common denominator was the Brahmin. Even while criticising non-Brahmin national leaders like Gandhi, Subhash Chandra Bose and Sardar Vallabhai Patel, Periyar said that they were all victims of a Brahmin conspiracy. He said, that Gandhi was killed by Brahmins because Gandhi was turning into a Periyar himself! Periyar and his disciples attributed grand conspiracies and clever manipulations by Brahmins for the plight of the non-Brahmins.

    Periyar’s was an attack on brahminical ideas of ‘philosophy’. For him philosophy was not a specific intellectual activity of the Brahmins and nor were they considered to be specialists or professionals above the masses. He forced the subalterns to understand that the Brahmanical conception of the world is something external to the organic intellectual world of the masses. His refusal to take part in Brahmanical discourses of language and his dismissal of epics like the Ramayana or Mahabharata
    has to be seen in this context.

    Periyar’s conviction was that after the end of British rule , independent India, under what he believed would be Brahmin rule, would be worse if there were not adequate checks and balances to curtail the dominance of the Brahmin castes. He gave credit to the agency of the native elite castes for using colonial institutions and bureaucracy to their own advantage. Anti-colonialist theorists like Frantz Fanon and Amilcar Cabral too have taken similar approaches to the native elites, of
    course in their own contexts.

    He wanted the British to continue to remain in power – while simultaneously complaining that they were succumbing to the machinations of the Brahmins.

    He once said
    “Hindu society as such does not exist. It is only a collection of castes. […] Indeed the ideal Hindu must be like a rat living in his own hole refusing to have any contact with others. […] There is no Hindu consciousness of kind. In every Hindu the consciousness that exists is the consciousness of his caste. That is the reason why the Hindus cannot be said to form a society or a nation. There are however many Indians whose patriotism does not permit them to admit that Indians are not a
    nation, that they are only an amorphous mass of people.”

    At times, Periyar issued blood-curdling threats to Brahmins, but in action he did not believe in violence. Many of his black-shirted followers were fine individuals personally. At the same time, Periyar was also paranoid that democracy would result in Brahmins completely taking over the reins of the government. His words: “India should never go anywhere near democratic principles. The reason is 90% of our population are fools and 97% of them are persons of low birth. How will their rule set right our country?” (Periyar’s writings compiled by Pasu. Gowthaman, vol. 4, 2017, p. 432)

    Another case in point followed in 1968, when, in Tanjore district, 44 Dalits were butchered by the goons of a landlord. Periyar commented on the murders thus: “So long as democracy exists, the honest will have no other option except to fade away, giving the dishonest room to dance around. The people of India are barbarians. The dharma of India is the dharma of criminal tribes. As long as the ones who follow Manu dharma exist, the nation will never have discipline, integrity, honesty and justice. India has gone into the hands of scoundrels after the departure of the British.”

    • Replies: @Malla
  212. @Yee

    How come people of different nationalities can defend their own countries, but when Chinese do it, they must have been paid to do so?

    China has every reason to be proud of her achievements, and many of them are spectacular. What is happening here, at least on my part–is an attempt to give a realistic perspective on things and point out those aspects of Chinese development which she is yet to address. Those are precise aspects which are in the foundation of real superpowers. Just one example, when China stops buying SU-35, S-400s, cruise missiles etc. from Russia–sure, we may say that something clicked. But for now it didn’t, especially in aerospace and some crucial issues of naval engineering and weapons’ design. Some of those issues can not be rushed to be addressed and require painstaking growing and honing of a number of engineering, design and manufacturing schools. It is like in space exploration, just one example: Chinese man/days in space–165.35, Soviet Union/Russia–27, 031.16. See the difference–163 times more in USSR/Russia? China only now begins to get pass some newcomer status in several key human activities, in others–it remains such and will remain such for a while. It is a process. So, pointing out weaknesses is not an attempt to insult or humiliate–it is merely to give food for thought. China is only emerging now.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  213. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    Indians indeed are “best slaves,” no wonder the British can rule hundreds of millions Indians with only few thousands of them.

    Again lack of understanding of Indian history a country far far more complicated than China ever was. In India we had Hindus and Muslims, who mostly hated each other. There were massive genocides done by Islamic hordes and Hindus armies fighting back devastated the land. At the same time, there were millions of lower caste dalits who were treated like shit by upper caste Hindus. The British were accepted because they were seen as neutral outsiders in a subcontinent which is the most complex in the world and brought peace in the subcontinent. There was no political unit called India but a collection of many Kingdoms.
    Besides that, the government was more or less incorruptible. Poor Indians would bribe court officials to have their case infront of a British judge rather than an Indian judge. not because they were awed by White skin and blue eyes but because the British had a reputation of being incorruptible and fair.

    And who got your Mao into power? Was it not the Rockefellars who funded/supported him. Even Stalin was against China going Communist, he was talking about breaking China up into Northern and Southern China at best but the Americans insisted that they want Mao towards the end of WW2.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  214. Joe Wong says:
    @polskijoe

    Are you saying it is wrong to tell what the real history is? And we must take the West’s words as given truth? Aren’t you kind of authoritarian?

    BTW Himalaya contains Indians in India that small pot of land, Indian has never moved out of that barrier. The Europeans do not consider the White Russian is European, then definitely the European has never lived East of Ural, in addition even the White Russian does not live east of Ural by themselves, so don’t claim credit where credit is not due like Europeans claiming North America and Australia as their god sent gift, Terra nullius, there was no IndoEuropean east of Ural and north of Himalaya.

    • Replies: @Malla
  215. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    Indians is funky double think, double talk morally defunct creatures

    And the Chinese are paragons of morality? LOL

    buy spending billions to buy foreign weapons is

    That is for the Indian government to decide. If they want to buy weapons, they will and a billion plus Indians will support them. If they want to develop missiles to reach China, they will.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/entire-china-could-soon-be-within-indias-n-strike-zone/articleshow/62561943.cms

    Entire China could soon be within India’s Nuclear Strike Zone
    India is a sovereign country, it will do what it wants. The Chinese do not decide our policies, never will. India is no Zimbabwe.

    Though I personally am not anti Chinese at all and would want India to be friendlier to China, I admire Chinese culture a lot, listen to Chinese classical music etc…. Am not happy with India going on the U.S. side as I distrust the U.S. government. Personally I have even challenged the anti Chinese attitudes of my Indian friends (who are rabidly anti Chinese thanks to crazy media propaganda) and have posted on Indian newspaper websites taking the Chinese point of view (which I felt was more right) on some issues. But the arrogance of some the Chinese I see on this page makes me want to reconsider everything. If most people in China are like you guys, I think the world is in danger of a rising China.

  216. Malla says:
    @Malla

    [It would be much better not to have many different comment-threads devolve into very long disputes over India despite having only slight connection to the original articles.]

    I understand the moderator’s concern, however it was denk who dragged us into this topic on Russia China relationships.

  217. Joe Wong says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Don’t take us wrong, Chinese bloggers have no intention to upset everybody here, Chinese bloggers are here to expose the lies told about China, clear the smear painted on China and correct the distorted facts with truth about China.

    The Westerners including the Russian have been misguided by their evil imperialist forebear far too long and the majority of them are totally living in a world with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, constrained by the zero-sum cold war mentality and detached from from reality.

    Indeed it is harmful to believe one’s own reality based on the past, out of date and obsolete records, such nostalgia outlook is a sign of falling behind and feeling helplessness. So please do not take Chinese bloggers frankness as insult, rebuttal or lecturing.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @Sergey Krieger
  218. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    And who were these peoples

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

    In artworks, the Scythians are portrayed exhibiting European traits.[117] In Histories, the 5th-century Greek historian Herodotus describes the Budini of Scythia as red-haired and grey-eyed.[117] In the 5th century BC, Greek physician Hippocrates argued that the Scythians have purron (ruddy) skin.[117][118] In the 3rd century BC, the Greek poet Callimachus described the Arismapes (Arimaspi) of Scythia as fair-haired.[117][119] The 2nd century BC Han Chinese envoy Zhang Qian described the Sai (Scythians) as having yellow (probably meaning hazel or green), and blue eyes.[117] In Natural History, the 1st century AD Roman author Pliny the Elder characterises the Seres, sometimes identified as Iranians (Scythians) or Tocharians, as red-haired and blue-eyed.[117][120] In the late 2nd century AD, the Christian theologian Clement of Alexandria says that the Scythians are fair-haired.[117][121] The 2nd century Greek philosopher Polemon includes the Scythians among the northern peoples characterised by red hair and blue-grey eyes.[117] In the late 2nd or early 3rd century AD, the Greek physician Galen declares that Sarmatians, Scythians and other northern peoples have reddish hair.[117][122] The fourth-century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus wrote that the Alans, a people closely related to the Scythians, were tall, blond and light-eyed.[123] The 4th century bishop of Nyssa Gregory of Nyssa wrote that the Scythians were fair skinned and blond haired.[124] The 5th-century physician Adamantius, who often follow Polemon, describes the Scythians are fair-haired.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

    The name Alan is an Iranian dialectical form of Aryan, a common self-designation of the Indo-Iranians.

    Physical appearance
    The fourth-century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus wrote that the Alans were tall, and blond:

    Nearly all the Alani are men of great stature and beauty; their hair is somewhat yellow, their eyes are terribly fierce.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans

  219. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    And yet Elizabeth ordered the Genocide of the Chukchis.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  220. Joe Wong says:
    @Malla

    [Too many comment-threads have recently become endless arguments about India, even if like this one the articles have very little to do with the topic. Additional comments along those lines may not be published.]

    It is amazing to see how a best slave view himself and his master, you surely open a lot eyes. Are you saying it is not true that Indian were adoring the British like living God, so that just few thousand of White British could rule hundreds of millions of Indians with ease?

    [MORE]

    Indian claimed they won the 1962 war, Indian also claimed they gave UNSC seat to China, I am not surprised Indian is trying out doing their Anglo master with fake news in order to please their Anglo masters.

    Anyhow the White said India is in the form of radical militant Hinduism which is the world’s most Degenerated, Duplicitous, and Debauched nation to have ever existed – carnage is happening today in India the likes of which has not been seen in thousands of years. When India and Pakistan were born and in its aftermath 100 million were killed and many more were displaced by the fascist Hindutva fanatics. India is the only caste system nation in the world that abuses human beings by birth, e.g. the higher caste can gang rape lower caste and lynch the victim afterwards as one of the caste privileges.

    Modi’s mentor, Bal Thackeray (died 2012) was a great admirer of Hitler. In fact, the basic philosophy of both Hindutva and Zionism is based on Hitler and Mussolini Fascism hidden under the so-called “Nationalism”. The principle agenda of Hindutva is to turn India into a “Hindu only” state, same as the occupied Muslim-majority is being turned into a “Jewish only” state by the Zionist Jews.

    The White says the British has a responsibility to go back to India to install some sanity back into Indian society by ruling it as a British Raj.

    • Replies: @Malla
  221. @Robert Magill

    Trans European freight trains are limited to 2000 tonnes. And the channel tunnel costs as much as the journey from Voronezh to Calais. I’ve checked.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  222. Joe Wong says:
    @CanSpeccy

    You should know bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated phantom WMD allegation as humanitarian intervention is a fallacy, the West particular the American lies, they lie about the present, about the past, even about future. They lie day and night, relentlessly.

    Their founding dogmas are based on deception, their history on false pathos and insincere heroism. The West has lied enough, and their credibility has bankrupted; nobody believes the West, it is the cause of their decline.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  223. Yee says:

    CanSpeccy,

    “why doesn’t China conduct an internationally supervised referendum on the issue to reassure the world that the Tibetans love Chinese occupation.”

    There’re 5.5 million Tibetans in China, 52% of them live in Tibet, the rest 48% live in Sichuan, Yunnan, Gansu, Qinghai etc., I’m not sure who have been mass migrating to whose land. Tibet is 92% Tibetan.

    Why should China need to reassure the world on the issue? I havn’t seen the US conduct “internationally supervised referendum” to reassure the world on anything.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  224. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    Oops! Some confusion there about generations and gender. But the point I was trying to make was that neither Russia’s Romanov dynasty, nor Britain’s Hanoverian royal family were of mainly indigenous stock. Both were largely German.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  225. @Philip Owen

    Ha! Kudos to you–you just answered the most important question.

  226. @CanSpeccy

    Some confusion there about generations and gender

    This sounds disturbing on so many levels, LOL.

    • LOL: CanSpeccy
  227. CanSpeccy says:
    @Kiza

    Things never go in the wrong direction on their own…

    Not sure what you mean, by “on their own”. Elites seem to lose control on a fairly regular basis. The French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the popular overthrow of Poland’s puppet Communist regime, which made clear to all and sundry that Communism is not a dictatorship of the proletariat, but a tyranny over the proletariat, a realization that made the collapse of the Soviet Union inevitable.

    The thing is, elites become inbred, nepotistic, decadent, lazy and stupid. We see that now in the US, Europe and probably also China, a country ruled by corrupt “Communist” billionaire descendants of the revolutionary generation.

    The interesting question, it seems to me, is not whether another revolution is on its way, but where and when the next revolution will occur. Trump may stave off American decay and disintegration and set the country on a more viable course, or he may prove simply a momentary distraction, possibly eve a creature of the deep state.

    • Agree: bluedog
  228. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    the American lies, they lie about the present, about the past, even about future.

    Well of course. What you’re missing is that everyone lies. The only difference between the Americans and the Chinese is that the Americans have more to lie about. But the Chinese are working to close the gap. Meantime, they lie through their teeth about ethnic cleansing of Tibetans and the Uyghurs.

  229. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Yee

    Why should China need to reassure the world on the issue?

    Oh, I assure no one gives a damn about the Tibetans.

    The reason for a referendum would be to see what the Tibetans actually want: their independence back, or ethnic cleansing by Commie Chinese.

    But then I suppose to state the question states the answer too.

  230. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    Chinese bloggers have no intention to upset everybody here, Chinese bloggers are here to expose the lies told about China, clear the smear painted on China and correct the distorted facts with truth about China.

    Perhaps China needs to open a school for bloggers so they don’t all sound like hasbarists without a clue how anyone but a brainwashed ChiCom thinks.

    • Replies: @utu
  231. I do not understand: why do we use a standard rail distance of 1.42m, which hasn’t been changed since the Roman Empire, or even before? Knowing that a standard train carries about 1000t, it is easy to calculate that a 3x bigger train would carry 30.000 tons, like a very good ship. And I am sure it could run 300-400km/h with no problems.

    A net of such railways may be established over all continents. Trains would be “earth-ships”, but 10x faster, and they would end their journeys in the existing harbors, which are equipped to reload the goods to the trucks and standard trains.

    Just imagine rail-to-rail distance 4.5m, width and height of a wagon: 7.5/7.5m, and the length of 45m. That would allow establishing cruiser-hotel-trains finally ))

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  232. It is obvious Russians are trying hard to reestablish their Empire. In this plan, they make great efforts to return Central Asian republics into Russian reign, and it is true that OBOR can interrupt them in their activities.

    • LOL: Andrei Martyanov
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  233. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I am not sure whether Joe Wong knows it but he does an excellent job for the other side. After reading his posts even the most naive idealist who entertains an idea that life under Chinese masters would offer an improvement over the current ones will have a moment of refection. I am also sure that Andrei Martyanov works as writer of articles and notes extolling Russia’s military prowess is appreciated by the MIC. After reading his articles and comments about advantages of Russian weaponry even the most staunch pacifist will be willing to tax himself and send more money to Pentagon. The missile gap, the submarine gap,…

  234. Yee says:

    CanSpeccy,

    The great king of Tibet gave up his independence when he married a princess from the Tang emperor family in 7th century and recognized himself a junior relative to the emperor.

    Which period of Tibet “independence” you want to get back? Mongols? Manchus? Sun Yat-sen? Chiang Kai-Skeh? They all considered Tibet part of China. So did the colonist Brits, because they signed the Sikkim-Tibet border agreement with the Qing emperor in 1890, when they colonized Sikkim.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  235. @Joe Wong

    You are very gifted man. You can write a lot about nothing.

    Just one friendly advice. Stop moralizing and patronizing. Chinese have a lot skeletons in the closet as well. You happen to be just more inept at what Europeans have been doing since ancient Greece times.

    China tried to expand many times alas without much success. Hence so much anguish.

  236. peterAUS says:
    @utu

    Yup.

    I’ve been wondering, actually, about this “Joe Wong” handle here.
    Feels as, almost, some “Chinese hater” pushing his perception of the “true Chinese”.

    But, then, that’s what free speech is all about. Give people to express their true selves and some just jump on it.

    Not bad to see that other/real side of a Chinese here.

    Reminds me of a …….colored…..fighters against racism. The rage, the hatred…..the desire to smash the “whitey”.

    Or a feminist. Starts with male oppression of females in past….and then, again, the pure hatred spills out.

    Good.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  237. @utu

    After reading his articles and comments about advantages of Russian weaponry

    You see, Peter AUS is your level, so reconcile yourself with your pathetic ignorance (and most likely some inferiority complex) and try to stop posting platitudes. Nobody is responsible but you for you being no good at anything but some pretentious crap. Learn something of value in this life. You wouldn’t know any single metric which defines “advantage” or otherwise of any weapon system, be it Russian, Chinese or American. Why don’t you try your “expertise” at proctologists’ forums, I am sure your opinions will have about the same weight there;-)

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @anon
  238. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Yes. But then as PeterAUS notes, I may have been had.

  239. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @дулебг

    Knowing that a standard train carries about 1000t, it is easy to calculate that a 3x bigger train would carry 30.000 tons

    The main issue, surely, is cost per ton mile. If rail is cheap enough, just run more trains and it’s a faster alternative to ocean transport — provided that there’s some land to run the trains on.

    The problem, though, with oil trains is their tendency to derail and burn.

    As for your 300,000 ton mega-oil-train rocketing by at 400 kph, a derailment would cause the environmental disaster of the century — til the next derailment.

    • Replies: @дулебг
  240. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Yee

    The great king of Tibet gave up his independence when he married a princess from the Tang emperor family in 7th century and recognized himself a junior relative to the emperor.

    You should let Wikipedia know about this, as they have it all wrong, reporting that:

    From the 7th to the 11th century a series of emperors ruled Tibet – see List of emperors of Tibet – of whom the three most important in later religious tradition were Songtsen Gampo, Trisong Detsen and Ralpacan, “the three religious kings” (mes-dbon gsum), who were assimilated to the three protectors (rigs-gsum mgon-po), respectively Avalokiteśvara, Mañjuśrī and Vajrapāni. Songtsen Gampo (c. 604 – 650) was the first great emperor who expanded Tibet’s power beyond Lhasa and the Yarlung Valley, and is traditionally credited with introducing Buddhism to Tibet.

    Throughout the centuries from the time of the emperor the power of the empire gradually increased over a diverse terrain so that by the reign of the emperor in the opening years of the 9th century, its influence extended as far south as Bengal and as far north as Mongolia.

    Later, apparently, the Tibetans were in cahoots with Kublai Khan at the time he conquered China. Or at least, so Wikipedia says.

  241. denk says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The anglos keep electing globalist who orchestrate white genocide abroad and at home, well, they get the govn they deserve.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  242. denk says:

    Canspeccy

    But it is remarkable and sad to see representatives of China, the world’s oldest intact empire, hypocritically raging against the atrocities committed by European empires, while defending the ongoing atrocities of the Communist bully boys in Beijing.
    —————-

    I have irrefutable evidence on atrocities committed by fukus, dutifully recorded by their own MSM,
    NO B.S.

    ‘The LA Times reported that “the US military” assaulted the city of Fallujah with the full “understanding” that “civilians…would be killed.” As a result, the Christian Science Monitor reported, “The sickening odor of rotting flesh” permeated the air circulating through the smoke filled and blood drenched streets of Fallujah.
    …………
    On November 21st, we were told in the newspaper of record “whole buildings, minarets and human beings were vaporized in barrages of exploding shells…” and read of the “summary justice of the casual head shot [where] marines decided to be judge, jury and executioner” of an unarmed Iraqi prisoner of war. “Waste the motherfuckers,” echoed in the streets of Fallujah. And a day earlier we imbibe,
    “the levels of destruction in Falluja were not a by-product of the campaign, but the product itself. The rubblizing of whole neighborhoods was meant….the loosing of air power against urban Iraq has now gone on for almost a year with increasing ferocity…these are surely the gates of hell…”

    http://www.uruknet.info/?p=18007

    [MORE]

    Tip of an iceberg,

    Now show me ‘ongoing atrocities of the Communist bully boys
    Again I dont wanna go thru long rambling links written by gawd knows who,
    highlight the ‘smoking gun’ like what i did,
    Is this beyond your understanding ?

    Well obviously. The West doesn’t wish to see the world’s most populous nation, with arguably the world’s largest economy, continually expanding its empire,
    ———————–

    Like how ?

    the West joins with those whom the Chinese have occupied
    ————————-

    Classic anglo hypocrisy ! [see I dont tar the entire 'west']

    So when’ll the anglos joins with those whom the anglos have occupied,
    Viz,
    USA/CANADA/HAWAII/PUERTO RICO/GUAM./MARSHALL ISLAND/OZ/NZ/DIEGO ARCIA/OKINAWA/JEJU/IRAQ/SYRIA/NAGALAND/MANIPUR../KASHMIR…

    The English are notorious for not doing what they preach,
    Whatever happens to
    Charity starts at home, old chap !

    ruthlessly oppress.
    ———————–

    Evidence, evidence.
    dont just paste bloody stupid links,

    But if you think the Tibetans like mass Han immigration, why doesn’t China conduct an internationally supervised referendum on the issue to reassure the world that the Tibetans love Chinese occupation.
    —————–

    Again, why only China should hold an internationally supervised ref, why only
    Tibet, but not Nagaland or Kashmir or West Puapa , for example ?

    Oops , I guess they did….
    ‘The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.” Nazi Propaganda Minister, Josef Goebbels, 1941

    For nearly 40 years, a succession of Generals in Jakarta, from Suharto to Yudhoyono, together with their fellow conspirators in London, Washington, Canberra and the Hague, have told a very big lie; that the people of West Papua chose feely to join Indonesia in the 1969 “Act of Free Choice”. And by repeating the lie over and over again they’ve hoped that people would eventually come to believe it.

    The truth is Indonesia’s greatest enemy. The Indonesian, British, American, Australian and Dutch governments all know the truth; In 1969 Suharto’s henchmen put their rifles to the heads of 1,026 West Papuan elders and threatened to blow their brains out if they voted for independence

    https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/10/383820.html

    [Xinjiang]
    Yeah, 11 million of them invented by the CIA and MI6
    —————–

    If you still dunno what CIA , MI6 do in Tibet/Xinjiang ,
    I suggest you stick to your Harry Potter book, this site is for adults .

    ‘How long will the countries targeted by American/Islamist limited warfare continue to tolerate this bold assault? China, in particular, is presently bound by the economic chains that have been forged with the United States. How much longer will it continue to abide provocations in Xinjiang and other Chinese interests from Central Asia, to Pakistan, to Africa? It would be extremely unprofitable right now for China to haul the United States before the UN Security Council or to take military actions in retaliation for this low-intensity war that has been waged upon them. But that will not always be true. When the American house of cards finishes collapsing all bets will be off.’

    https://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/are-we-really-cattle/

    Does this make sense to anyone? Maybe your aggressive co-propagandists for Chinese supremacy, Dunk, agrees.
    ———————-

    Ha, it never fails, whenever you thought you’ve found a reasonable anglo,
    they show their true color !

    I wont stoop to your sewerage level,
    I’d even offer you a prize,
    if you can show me one, just one example of me cheerleading for ‘Chinese supremacy’, I’d disappear from this site. !

    [hint]
    Lots of whiteys like you accuse me of stuffs that I never did,
    I challenge them to substantiate their claim but none came back,
    Ergo,
    Im not holding my breath,
    hhhhhhh

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @Malla
  243. denk says:
    @Malla

    Just like black ‘revolutionaries’ in Angola, Rhodesia and Mozambique were communist creations supported by Communist Chinese and the Soviets with weapons and training.

    Evidence ?
    [see my reply to canspeccy about what constitute an evidence ]

    Indians under British rule were a million times more free than Chinese under Mao.
    Under British rule there were Indian millionaires owning big mills and hiring British managers. Time to leave commie school and get back to reality

    Im not surprised , this coming from an ‘Indian’ ;-) who brown nose everything about the West.

    hhhh

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
  244. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    And the Chinese are sure smart to follow a Rockefellar Yale agent Mao using a foreign concept like Communism to kill tens of millions of their own people and destroying loads of their own cultural monuments. Sure smart.

    Joseph Stalin’s reluctance to create Communist China

    Communist China was nothing more than an experiment by the Western banker elites to create a slave society for future capitalists which it has become today.

    “Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded, not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in fostering a high morale and community propose. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao’s leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history.”

    – David Rockefeller, New York Times, 1973

  245. peterAUS says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Peter AUS is your level,

    Well……well…

    I thought that we agreed to disagree on plenty of issues and don’t, again, waste our time in debating them. Unless you’d like that re number of comments/popularity of an article. I’ll probably pass.

    I was wrong about you then, thinking you were older than me and coming from Cold War. Actually, you are coming from that period a bit but I am a bit older and remember that period better.

    So, knowing that there are less and less of us, relics of Cold War, around I give to you that you’d win, here, any debate about weapons, numbers, technicalities, specifications and such.
    Been there done that.
    Most of posters, let alone readers here haven’t had a command experience from that period. I have…..and I do still remember it.

    I remember how we were fed all that data and believing all that BS about the strength of Soviet Union and its armed forces. And then……..blop……..

    So, because we, relics, do learn from history I don’t buy the same game from Russia for a second.
    Having said that I am aware that most of posters/readers here will. That’s fine. The problem is that every now and then there is that surprise as what’s really going on.

    The core issue in Russia is similar to that of Soviet Union: intellectually very good top,weak/confused middle and mess at bottom, where tires meet the road.
    In practical terms: exceptional well thought out weapons design ->not so great production, both quality and quantity wise->even less great maintenance->and even less deployment of all that.
    And when it is deployed in some quality and numbers the issue of quality of troops, their training etc.
    Armed forces are as the society they come from. Enough said.

    I know that people here desperately need somebody to challenge The Empire. Fine.
    The problem is ..Russia isn’t that somebody. Let alone its armed forces.

    The only problem Russia presents to The Empire is its nuclear arsenal. Without it we would’ve had major regional war in Europe as soon as Putin got into power.

    That is when there is a spark between those two Russia always steps back, steps down, deescalates etc.
    Putin playing that chess of his…. great stratagems we mere mortals simply can’t comprehend…yeah..sure.

    Anyway, we’ll be watching how the thing in Syria goes.
    Or Ukraine, most likely some time around the World Cup.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Sergey Krieger
  246. @peterAUS

    I’m pretty certain he’s just an authentic troll. His views are obviously not mainstream, but a great thing I’ve come to learn is that idiots seem to successfully use volume to make up for their lack of knowledge.

    That said, there are some really weird formulations from his writing style that make me doubt things, such as “be a sport,” which is extremely weird for someone who presumably has a poor grasp of English. Its just not an idiom that I would envision someone actually from China using; its completely inconsistent with the “language-thought” pattern.

    Incidentally, if there was an effort at astroturfing, I do think this is what it’ll look like. Essentially an effort to derail conversation into nonsense.

    But meh. Its usually safe to always attribute things to human stupidity before any conspiracy.

  247. Malla says:
    @denk

    From

    https://archive.org/stream/TheSiegeOfSouthernAfrica/siege_djvu.txt

    A prominent Black leader in, South Africa, Chief Kaizer Matanzima of the Transkei, also warned African States supporting terrorism to “mind their own business”, and all responsible Black men in Southern Africa, knowing well that they are the potential victims of “liberation”, feel like this, and often say so. Chief Gatsha Buthelezi even made himself highly unpopular in Communist quarters
    by his remark and was the object of organized hostile student demonstrations when he visited Dar es Salaam, the Chinese headquarters in Africa and the base of Chinese arms supply.

    …snip….

    One was the regrouping of the tribespeople in protected villages, and I saw many of them along this road and later in the east and southeast, where other Chinese-motivated and Soviet-motivated groups of terrorists still made desultory forays across the border. The aldeamentos, or protected villages, were a good answer to the menace in one way: they did guard the people from the arsonists and abductors who plagued them when they lived in isolated groups. A disadvantage is
    that the Black tribesman clings tenaciously to the soil he knows, however perilous, and dislikes to be separated by distance from his land.

    …snip….

    In Angola they are engaged, as they well know, in a war which they cannot militarily win because it is not a war at all, in any sense in which the word was ever used in history. It is an international conspiracy in which half the governments of the world join, wearing the mocking mask of moral indignation: Russian and Chinese Communists, American Quakers, British Socialists, Norwegian,
    Swedish and German Socialists. It can go on as long as hireling murderers can be enlisted by the promise of loot, women, private vengeance and political appointments. It can go on as long as America, Russia, China, “the satellite States”, Cuba and Algeria flood Africa with arms for these hirelings, and as long as the Socialist party in England and the Roosevelt school in America lavish
    money on them.

    …snip….

    I was able to travel through and to fly over the area called Centenary (I never learned which centenary: Rhodesia is not a hundred years old) on the north-western border where the hired killers with their landmines and weapons were galvanized into sudden activity by their Chinese masters in far-off, safe Lusaka and Dar-es-Salaam in late 1973 and early 1974.

    …snip….

    I
    wondered too whether any Chinese ever asked themselves why their country was killing people, unknown to them, thousands of miles away. If any do so, they presumably find the answer in the Thoughts of Chairman Mao. Around this hospital, on the bare ground, lay the families of these amputees. They dared not return to their villages, if anything remained of them, so they came to Tete and lay down on the ground around the hospital, hoping, I supposed, that food and shelter might some day, somehow, reach them.

    Thus the weapons, the worldwide clamour of chiefs and elders and the slavish mob, the troops (not the wretched Bakongo and Maconde killers but the thirty thousand Chinese so far assembled as railway workers, technical advisers and the like) in Zambia and Tanzania, the whole machine of the liberalist world revolution has been set up for the purposes of destroying Mozambique and extending the territory of the world revolution in Africa. But what of the other essential: money!

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @denk
    , @polskijoe
  248. Malla says:
    @Malla

    More

    https://archive.org/stream/TheSiegeOfSouthernAfrica/siege_djvu.txt

    On Mozambique

    Above all, they have calmly gone ahead with the Cabora Bassa project, one of the greatest hydro-electric undertakings in the world. This place, when I was there, was already one of the wonders of the world, with machines like prehistoric monsters crawling along miles of lit streets burrowed through the mountain. Work was ahead of schedule and is due to be completed in 1975, when Mozambique hopes to supply services to its African neighbours.

    Cabora Bassa is only a few miles from Tete, the most dangerous area of Mozambique, but work went on there as if all the world were at peace. Cabora Bassa is said to be strongly guarded, though no open signs of this meet the traveller’s eyes. It has never yet been attacked by the murder gangs: whether from fear or by order of their Chinese masters, who might hope to take it over intact when world revolution day strikes, is anybody’s guess. The lake, when full, will stretch 155 miles to the Zambian border. Some with whom I spoke thought that this great stretch of water would prove to be a great hindrance to the murder gangs in their activities. Others, nearer to the menace, were less optimistic.

    …snip….

    His public exhortations to violence and revolutionary methods caused him to remove himself to Dar-es-Salaam, the Chinese-Russian invasion port in East Africa, where he found himself in congenial company with those whom one writer calls “the cream of Africa’s revolutionaries”, and whom I would call the scum of Africa.

    …snip….

    These emissaries infiltrate into the Ovambo villages by night and disturb and incite the tribespeople, particularly the young men, with tales of coming invasions patronized by the House of Helots in New York (U.N.) and limitlessly supplied with Chinese and Russian arms. The leftist-liberal world conspiracy has reached into this remote and peaceful pastoral community.

    …snip…

    The mighty gun-power of China and Russia is trained against them, and so is the vast moneypower of America (which paid for Russian and Chinese armaments in the first place and seems itself to be drifting toward a Communist takeover). In the operations room at the House of Helots (U.N.) the attack on South West (namibia) is next on the drawing board.

  249. Yee says:

    CanSpeccy,

    Tibet king Songzain Gambo married Princess Wen Cheng is kindergarten level history. I don’t need to ask Wiki.

    A statue of her is still kept in Jokhang Temple of Lhasa, 1300 year old now.

    Chinese history writing gives the exact words of the original record, so anyone with an interest can check for himself.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @ThatDamnGood
  250. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @denk

    I have irrefutable evidence on atrocities committed by fukus, dutifully recorded by their own MSM,
    NO B.S.

    Ah, you can read the newspaper. Congratulations.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @denk
  251. Malla says:
    @denk

    Hey denk some info for you

    http://lorddreadnought.livejournal.com/37272.html

    Communist China was created by the Jews and serves their interests

    https://lipstick-and-war-crimes.org/mao-yale-man-rothschilds-create-peoples-republic-china/

    Mao Was a Yale Man – Rothschilds Create People’s Republic of China

    https://wideawakegentile.wordpress.com/2013/12/18/jews-in-china-mao-era/

    CHINAS “REVOLUTIONARY” JEWS

    https://wideawakegentile.wordpress.com/2014/06/07/chinese-communism-yes-but-it-was-jewish-when-it-started/

    CHINESE COMMUNISM? YES BUT IT WAS JEWISH WHEN IT STARTED

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @ThatDamnGood
    , @Lin
  252. Cratylus says:

    Early on the author writes: “With her almost 750 million population and a GDP larger than that of China or the US, Europe is the only truly wealthy market left in the world.”
    Stop right there. Not true.
    The ranking of the gross GDP (PPP) of the world’s economies in 2017 were, starting with number one: China, EU, US, India, Japan, Russia, Germany etc.
    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
    So the author is dead wrong on this fundamental fact.
    How much credence should we give to the remainder of this article?

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Philip Owen
  253. utu says:
    @peterAUS

    With “Peter AUS is your level” Martyanov managed to offend both you and me. I did not intend to make much out of it but since you objected I felt I should let you know that my feeling were hurt as well.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  254. Jakate jak!
    I did check the comments. Nobody bothered to mention, or did bring up, so we were not able to analyze the most important point. Why China wants to build the Silk road.
    So I am here to give you a response.
    ……………………………………………………………….
    China wants to build the Silk road because they know that sooner or later they will loose the US market.
    So they want to be ready.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @дулебг
  255. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Yee

    Tibet king Songzain Gambo married Princess Wen Cheng is kindergarten level history

    That’s why I said, why don’t you tell Wikipedia, and well, everyone, since only you and Chinese kindergarteners apparently know this important fact.

  256. Bliss says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    What is West?

    It is a combination of three elements:

    1. Greco-Roman heritage
    2. Christianity
    3. rational & scientific spirit going back to 18th C Enlightenment

    There are fundamental problems with this definition:

    1. Greco-Roman heritage was pagan in it’s origins. Christianity, which originated outside Europe, was adopted by the West many centuries after Athens and Rome at their prime.

    2. Christianity is not exclusive to the West.

    3. The rational and scientific spirit of the Enlightenment is utterly incompatible with Christian dogma.

    4. Rationalism and Science are not exclusive to the West.

  257. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    Or to be more explicit, if what is detrimental to America’s moral standing is nevertheless published in the US newspapers, then no one is disputing it. So yapping on about Fallujah tells us nothing we didn’t know, and in no way exculpates China for crimes against humanity in Tibet and Xinjiang.

    All empires commit atrocities, the Chinese empire, being the oldest in existence, having committed more than most. If the US is running ahead of China in the atrocity stakes just now, it means only that the US is still rather more powerful than China.

    • Replies: @denk
  258. Bliss says:
    @Cratylus

    Actually it is you who lacks credence, for using PPP instead of nominal GDP to compare the international competitiveness of economies:

    The ranking of the gross GDP (PPP) of the world’s economies in 2017 were

  259. peterAUS says:
    @utu

    Haha…that’s a good one, especially taking into account that we disagreed a lot before (to put it mildly).

    It’s not about hurt feelings but a weird assertion because the only comment I put on this article has nothing to do with Russian weaponry and such. Just a simple fact that, should The Empire want to threaten those trading inland routes the best way would be to encourage some internal dissent somewhere along those.

    At the same time I do like to read Anatoly’s stuff. I guess his methodology is familiar. Not quite the manner but that’s expected from a feisty Russian.

    At the end of the day he is legit in military matters. There are not many guys here having military experience and he is one of rare specimens of officer level here.
    So far I’ve been able to recognize not more than 3, tops, of that type.
    Several civilians of heavy hobbyist type, a couple of civilians involved in military, quite a few soldier/NCO types but that’s pretty much it.

    So, his input is good, just, I mostly object to the angle he presents here. I had plenty of that angle during Cold War and, well, not impressed by it.

    But, when all is said and done, his material is good to take a look at.

    When military matters are concerned if one wants to have, as outsider, a grasp of what’s going on, he/she has to read a lot of material and try to pick what’s good.

    He has good high level approach; I just think that’s not good enough. One has to appreciate the full picture.

    Like….that weapon system is amazing. ….etc..etc….and, then, crew manning it hasn’t had their basic life issue resolved (pay, housing etc…). They are not focused on job, maintenance in particular, don’t pay much attention to training/learning…discipline is lacking etc…

    So, that weapon system is not as efficient as its data suggest because the underlying structure is weak.

    We learnt that lesson during the dissolution of Soviet Union.
    And I don’t think that modern Russia is that much different in that regard.

  260. @CanSpeccy

    Beats just having a couple of expatriated governors. Citizenship vs serfdom. Integration into the empire until they become one of us, as imperial as it gets. We don’t want just the land, we want you, your children and their children to become one of us. Unless you were a serf lord in the case of Tibet.

    Do you know what the downsides of colonialism?

  261. @Yee

    That princess was the starting point for Buddhism in Tibet.

  262. @Malla

    Ideas of communism, and it’s attractiveness to Jews came from the operations of the kibbutz. It was a religious ideal, you see various communist societies in religious orders. Back in the USA, you have a secular one, the Amish. The religion aspect for dropped for expediency of expansion.

    If you understand this, well, would you still want to bet against China?

    • Replies: @Malla
  263. gT says:
    @Malla

    But the arrogance of some the Chinese I see on this page makes me want to reconsider everything. If most people in China are like you guys, I think the world is in danger of a rising China.

    100% Correct. Chinese are arrogant peasants, they now have for the first time, seen a little $$$$, and now they think they know and own and are superior to everything. And they all think the same way, I’ve never seen diverged views with regards to Tibet or the Uyghurs from a Chinese. It seems just as we are about to get rid of one problem, the NeoCon Anglo American Zionist bunch, another problem comes to the fore, the ‘Chinese peasants with their big heads’ (to quote another commentator). Thank goodness that right next to China there are a billion shit in the open’ers to help contain this menace :-). We just weren’t meant to live in relaxed mode on this planet.

    • LOL: polskijoe
    • Replies: @Malla
    , @denk
  264. Malla says:
    @denk

    Again, why only China should hold an internationally supervised ref, why only
    Tibet, but not Nagaland or Kashmir or West Puapa , for example ?

    Very true, if China is forced to hold referendum in it’s disputed territories, so should India in Kashmir, Nagaland, Mizoram, Tripura, Arunachal Pradesh (which is actually Southern Tibet) basically the North Eastern region,
    Bangladesh in the Chitagong Hill tracts, Pakistan in Baluchistan, Burma/Myanmar in Naga, Karen territories, Indonesia in Aceh, Irian Jaya etc…, Kenya in Somali territories, Spain in Catalonia, Belgium in both the Flemish and Waloon parts, Italy in it’s Northern regions, Denmark in Greenland, Brazil in it’s Southern regions, West Sahara under Moroccan rule etc….. China should not be singled out when there are many other such cases in the world. Did not Woodrow Wilson promise self determination to all peoples? What happened to that? Or was it only applied selectively in those places which suited the globalist agendas.

  265. Malla says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Also because the U.S Navy is very powerful and might try to starve trade with the PRC via a siege policy at sea in case of future confrontation. The land in Eurasia, large parts of it are Russia and Central Asia, where the U.S. elites has limited control while the USA is Queen of the Seas (like the British navy once upon a time). China may be able to protect her interests close to home in nearby waters but in the oceans of the world, she has limited power right now to confront the U.S. navy, even in the foreseeable future.

    CPEC with Pakistan means oil can be brought to the PRC from Pakistani ports like Gwadar which is much closer to the gulf states and the reducing the Malacca choke-point trump card the US navy and their allies had in a confrontation with the PRC. At the same time, manufactured goods can be sent out via this route. The Pakistani Navy can protect this region form the Indian Navy in case of a war. That is why India (like the U.S.) is so pissed with CPEC. CPEC reduces India’s ability to choke PRC’s fuel supply in the Indian Ocean in case of a war/ diplomatic confrontation, it was a trump card which India lost with CPEC. And India is a US ally w.r.t China along with Australia, Japan and Vietnam building up an unnecessary anti China cabal. Australia was pushed/ arm twisted into this alliance by the U.S. no doubt as Australia has no border dispute with China.

    Unfortunately for India and the USA, even Russia is now showing interest in CPEC as they have the chance to get safe warm water access into the Indian ocean something which the Russians always desired and hence the great game in between the Russian Empire and British Empire last century.

    The silk route reduces the ability of the U.S. navy and their allied navies to disrupt China’s external trade.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  266. DB Cooper says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I am sure you are from a people that ethnic and religious oppressions are part of the historic experience of your culture (whether your people were the one doing the oppression or at the receiving end of the oppression is immaterial). From the perspective of your culture, ethnic and religious oppressions are just normal human behavior, as natural as eating and sleeping. This is why you cannot accept the fact that Tibetans and Uighurs in China are not oppressed.

    Let me put it simply this way. Ethnic and religious oppression is simply not a thing in Chinese culture. It never has been. And this features has manifested itself in many ways, including the organic coalescing of different ethnic groups to form the ‘Han’ people throughout thousands years of nation building to the non-existence of religious war in Chinese history. On the other hand from the Sino-centric (as opposed to the usual Euro-centric) point of view, that there are cultures in the world that do ethnic and religious oppression is actually an eccentricity of humankind.

    What happen if you tell a Brit that people in London riot over the lost of a ping pong match of their national ping pong team to another country? The Brit will immediately dismiss this as nonsense because ping pong hooliganism is not a thing in British culture. In the same manner a Chinese will immediately dismiss change of ethnic and religious oppression of the Tibetans and Uighurs as nonsense.

  267. Vidi says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    For long stability China needs all markets and resources it can get hands on.

    China needs resources, that is clear. But not necessarily markets in the West, as China’s own internal market will be far larger than Europe’s. In the long run, any minor fraction of Europe’s market that China will have will be almost irrelevant to China.

    One way or another somebody will have to suffer. Either Chinese if they do not turn Europe into Wal-Mart or Europeans if Chinese succeed.

    No, political economy is not a zero-sum game. Clearly, both sides win, as China gets insurance against a sea lane cutoff; Europe gets more access to China’s vast and rapidly growing market. (As Europe itself is not growing much, it’s clear why European businesses are eager for the new Silk Road to open.)

  268. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    200 rail cars (this is maximum possible), 400 containers x 2 cars=800 cars per train. Up to 8500 cars per ship:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/automobiles/around-the-world-with-5500-cars.html

    Math, speaks for itself. Factor of 10. It is an order of magnitude per shipment.

    Shipping by boat is cheaper, but strategically important traffic can go by train in an emergency. The latter advantage is the main import of the new Silk Road.

  269. Lin says:
    @Malla

    “That is for the Indian government to decide. If they want to buy weapons, they will and a billion plus Indians will support them. If they want to develop missiles to reach China, they will..”
    “..Entire China could soon be within India’s Nuclear Strike Zone
    India is a sovereign country, it will do what it wants. The Chinese do not decide our policies, never will. India is no Zimbabwe..”
    ………
    If india with 1/5th of china’s GDP wants to spend 2.5-2.6% of GDP on military(as against china’s 1.9-2.0%), go ahead (nos. from Sipri). Let me rephrase it:
    “That is for the Pak government to decide. If they want to buy weapons, they will and 180 millions plus Paks will support them. If they want to develop missiles to reach India, they will..”
    “..Entire India could soon be within Pakistan’s Nuclear Strike Zone
    Pakistan is a sovereign country, it will do what it wants. The Indians do not decide our policies, never will. Pakistan is no Sikkim..”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-luce/in-sri-lanka-explaining-t_b_211249.html

    • Replies: @Malla
  270. Lin says:
    @Malla

    Let me join your BS parade:

    1 rupee = US$45

    http://www.citehr.com/320805-what-happens-if-1-rupee-45-dollars.html

    When authorities in New Delhi notified him about the rising piles of dead bodies in Bengal, his reply was “If food is so scarce, why hasn’t Gandhi died yet?” He is also reported to have said: “Famine or no famine, Indians will breed like rabbits.”

    https://thelogicalindian.com/story-feed/opinion/winston-churchill-death-anniversary/

    Head transplant in Vedic period

    https://truthabouthinduism.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/head-transplant-in-vedic-period/

    Ancient hindus invented flying saucers

    http://www.mysteryofindia.com/2014/06/mystery-of-vimana-ancient-flying-machine.html

    • Replies: @Malla
  271. @CanSpeccy

    Oh, firstly I meant: how come everything changes and grows, tankers have reached 300.000 tons, but we do not dare extending the measures of trains, which were invented as a horse carriage on rails.

    The ecology comes to be an obscure science, much more devoted to the political, than a rational purposes.

  272. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    My dear fellow! Well said! You confirm every single European prejudice about Russians being coarse and uncouth. Putin is a fake Russian. As to you yourself, so savant, a little sense of humor would do wonders for your credibility. But to each his path..

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  273. @peterAUS

    Well Well, I will leave most of what you wrote to more qualified, but will address only the blop.
    You are indeed a very lucky man and USA is indeed a very lucky country so far because you did not have to test your theories in real life. i mean facing Soviet military. Considering the posture of NATO forces in Europe at the time with lots of tactical nukes and that would betray different picture from what you are describing and that posture was adopted by far more qualified men than you are.
    The matter of the fact and subsequent track record of US land forces after and including WW2 is not exactly encouraging. I agree about military being reflection of society , hence you gotta have a hard look at what US society is now. I also agree about later Soviet and modern Russian elites quality. Pretty bad. This is what actually saved you and resulted in blop. But looking at USA now I think that you are not far behind now. Don’t you think the blop cannot happen to you? USA position and reputation now is not exactly what it used to be and it indeed played a big role during what happened in 80′s. USA looked very attractive and had credit card to max. Not anymore and reputation ruined.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @peterAUS
  274. Mr. Hack says:
    @дулебг

    Behind the context of Chinese/Russian relations is of course the discourse about Chinese and Russian empire building projects. For the time being, both Russia and China are content with maintaining a status quo, perhaps even a deepening of their relations, but sooner or later their interests will clash, most assuredly in the Central Asian Republics, as you point out. The Silk Road project is just the precursor to this confrontation, perhaps a Chinese Trojan horse disguised as a boon to Eurasian commerce and cultural relations. Then of course, there’s always the threat of Chinese/Russian confrontations over border issues in the Far East of ‘Russia’, lands that must count heavily in any true definition of China’s ambitions to return to the status of an expanding empire, as it already is reclaiming these lands daily, slowly but surely, by increasing its ethnic composition there, to the detriment of the ethnic Russian presence. But it’s not only in the Far East and Central Asia that China is making strides to increase its economic and cultural presence.

    While Moscow’s inept policy making and foreign policy wonks have managed to totally screw up relations with neighboring Ukraine, China has steadily been increasing its presence there. The article that I’m citing’s title is a bit misleading, as the content within clearly indicates, and should be retitled: ‘As China Invests in Ukraine – Ukraine Stands to Gain’:

    Also known as the “New Silk Road,” the One Belt, One Road initiative is Chinese President Xi Jinping’s foreign policy mantelpiece. Accordingly, Beijing wants Ukraine to become a stable, reliable partner through which Chinese goods can flow into Europe…To that end, during his visit to Kyiv, Kai announced plans for $7 billion in joint projects between China and Ukraine. In turn, Groysman announced that 2019 would be the “year of China” in Ukraine…Over the first nine months of 2017, trade between Ukraine and China increased by 14.5 percent—reaching about $5.6 billion. Ukrainian agriculture exports have contributed to the boost in trade. Ukraine has taken over from the U.S. as China’s top supplier of corn. Five years ago, the U.S. supplied about 97 percent of corn imported by China. Today, roughly 95 percent of it comes from Ukraine. China is now the top purchaser of military equipment from Ukraine, totaling $90 million in sales in 2016. China has already had a hand in rebuilding Ukraine’s transportation infrastructure, underscoring the importance of Ukraine to the One Belt, One Road initiative. Kyiv has awarded multiple contracts worth tens of millions of euros for Chinese companies to upgrade Ukrainian highways. Beyond roadwork, Beijing has plans for a $400 million passenger railway connecting Kyiv Boryspil International Airport and Kyiv. And a Chinese company has been dredging Ukraine’s Yuzhny port, the country’s busiest. China is also investing in other sectors of Ukraine’s economy. Ivan Miroshnichenko, a Ukrainian member of parliament, told Ukrainian media that China could invest $8 to $12 billion in Ukraine over the next five years. Last week, Chinese officials expressed interest in purchasing aircraft from Ukraine’s Antonov aircraft manufacturing company, as well as licensing Chinese companies to produce spare parts for any aircraft China buys. (Antonov recently cut itself off from all Russian part suppliers.)

    China may want to set a historical precedent in Ukraine by nudging the country back into Russia’s orbit, as Cheng suggested. Although, Beijing may not ultimately see Ukraine’s fate as an either-or choice between Russia and the West, as Moscow does. “I think Beijing looks at this from a different prism,” Tsang, the Chatham House fellow, said. “It does not want Ukraine back in Russia’s orbit, but it does not want to see Ukraine in Western Europe’s orbit either. It prefers Ukraine put a higher priority in developing its relationship with China.”

    http://dailysignal.com/2017/12/08/as-china-invests-in-ukraine-russia-stands-to-gain/?utm_source=TDS_Email

  275. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    .. also The Silk Road is out of a reach of The US Navy.

  276. It is funny that Russia & China waited 70 years to unite against common enemy. They could have done this in 1949, but it seems that long British fingers have done a great job separating these possible allies to different sides?

    • Replies: @polskijoe
    , @TT
  277. Malla says:
    @denk

    More for you denk

    http://new.euro-med.dk/20160422-china-and-its-new-aiib-bank-showing-the-flag-capitalism-and-communsm-mergeing-into-nwo-under-rothschild-banking.php

    China and Its New AIIB Bank Showing the Flag: Capitalism and Communism Mergeing into New World Order under Rothschild Banking

    hehehehe

  278. Malla says:
    @ThatDamnGood

    No I do not bet against China. I prefer China and Russia to the US government any day.

  279. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Sure, Pakistan has the right to do what it wants. It really is a sovereign country.
    Listen I want the Indian government to have good relations with China and give up it’s childish behaviour w.r.t China. Because, that is what I see. The way India presents it’s nuclear build up to it’s own people as a protective defensive measure. All governments in the world use propaganda on it’s own people, always have, always will. In Indo-China relationships I feel it is China who tends to act more mature, but the truth is Indian Government can do what it wants, if it wants to be part of the US, Japan, Vietnam alliance, it has the right to as wrong it may be from my point of view. It does not makes us slaves as denk always alludes to.

  280. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Head transplant in Vedic period

    Ancient hindus invented flying saucers

    They are Hindu Brahminist fundamentalist nonsense and I do not approve of this crap.

    https://thelogicalindian.com/story-feed/opinion/winston-churchill-death-anniversary/

    Well yes Churchill did say that but things are much more complicated. I cannot explain it here as the post will go to Indian history which is not the main article is all about. As far as the Bengal famine let me keep it short India and thus Bengal was at war (WW2) being a part of the British Empire at that time, Burma which was a supplier of rice in case of famines earlier and was part of British Empire too was now a part of the Japanese Empire which was at active war with the British Empire at that time (there was armed confrontation in the Burma Bengal border regions between the forces of both the Empires), Churchill’s harsh reaction was rebuked by the Viceroy of British India, Governor General etc… who were all Brits, they used their own quota on ships to get as much food as possible into Bengal, The British Indian government had passed a law (Government of India act 1935) which gave more powers to the Indian provinces ten years earlier in nearly all domestic matters and the Punjab, a bread basket province refused to give food to Bengal, to their fellow Indians, the Central British Indian govt in Delhi had to force them to send food to Bengal (by breaking the government of India act 1935) due to which the Punjabis cried foul and anti British feelings there increased there with riots and revolutions, the mayor of Calcutta (Bengal) was an Indian as due to the law I mentioned earlier, Churchill had a change of heart and did sent food from other parts of the empire (mostly Australia) even though allied forces needed those resources, when Churchill asked U.S. president Roosevelt for some aid for the starving peoples of Bengal, the same Roosevelt who was arm twisting the British to give independence to India, flatly refused.

    There you go. That is how things happened but the leftist narrative hide these facts to build up a narrative of evul Brits.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    , @CanSpeccy
    , @Malla
  281. denk says:
    @Malla

    If this is the best you can offer Im really disappointed. !
    Anecdotal, unverifiable accounts from person of unknown veracity is inadmissible in court .
    Case dismissed !

    Matter of fact,
    The above narrative sounds suspiciously like classic fukus M.O.,
    Dissemination of fake news and fabrication of fake evidence,

    Exhibit A
    Indonesia 1965,
    Impeccable evidence…..from the horse mouth, declassified fukus documents.

    ‘The third means of support was propaganda operations, mainly involving the distribution of false anti-Sukarno messages and stories through the media. This was organised from Britain’s MI6 Phoenix Park intelligence base in Singapore.

    The head of these operations, Norman Reddaway, told the BBC’s Southeast Asia correspondent to “do anything you can think of to get rid of Sukarno”. On 5 October Reddaway reported to the Foreign Office in London that: “We should not miss the present opportunity to use the situation to our advantage… I recommend that we should have no hesitation in doing what we can surreptitiously to blacken the PKI in the eyes of the army and the people of Indonesia”.

    The Foreign Office replied: “We certainly do not exclude any unattributable propaganda or psywar [psychological warfare] activities which would contribute to weakening the PKI permanently. We therefore agree with the [above] recommendation… Suitable propaganda themes might be… Chinese interference in particular arms shipments; PKI subverting Indonesia as agents of foreign communists”. It continued: “We want to act quickly while the Indonesians are still off balance but treatment will need to be subtle… Please let us know of any suggestions you may have on these lines where we could be helpful at this end”.

    http://markcurtis.info/2007/02/12/the-slaughters-in-indonesia-1965/

    SJW like Canspeccy might wanna read the gory details, like the Royal Navy dispatching warships to ferry the death squads to the killing fields, final death toll was at least 3m innocent peasants,. ….if he can find time away from his fixation with that ‘brutal suppression in Tibet./Xinjiang’ B.S.

    ‘It was not only PKI activists who were the targets of this terror. As the British files show, many of the victims were the “merest rank and file“ of the PKI who were “often no more than bewildered peasants who give the wrong answer on a dark night to bloodthirsty hooligans bent on violence”, with the connivance of the army, eagerly supported by Washington/London/Canberra/Hague.

    Communist China was created by the Jews and serves their interests
    ————————————

    I dont even bother to read the content.
    The only ones serving the Zionists interest , fighting all their wars in the Middle East is none other than that inglorious FIVE EYES entity.
    hhhhhhh

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  282. Malla says:
    @gT

    Chinese are arrogant peasants

    You have not come across hardcore Indian nationalist peasants, they are even worse, far far worse and much dumber. I have seen brainwashed arrogant Chinese peasants fight it out with equally brainwashed arrogant Indian peasants on many a Internet sites. It is like a puppy attacking a mirror.

    • Replies: @gT
  283. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    ———
    Like I say,
    I aint holding my breath !

    hhhhhh

    P.S.

    Your hypocrisy is so stunning I’d repeat that gem here for those who miss it,

    Well obviously. The West doesn’t wish to see the world’s most populous nation, with arguably the world’s largest economy, continually expanding its empire,
    —————–

    I see,

    FUKUS,
    the most rapacious land grabbers in human history, who managed to corner most of the world’s premium real estates,

    Viz,
    USA/CANADA/HAWAII/PUERTO RICO/GUAM./MARSHALL ISLAND/OZ/NZ/DIEGO ARCIA/OKINAWA/JEJU/IRAQ/SYRIA/NAGALAND/MANIPUR../KASHMIR…
    /WEST PAPUA/….LIBYA/KOSOVO…and counting

    doesnt wish to see China continually expanding its empire, [like what ] ?
    —————–

    Christ,
    Why are you wasting your time here, the US state dept or the Brit foreign ministry can use talent like you !
    BUT Then you and your ilks are like a dime a dozen in the ‘West’ , no wonder they seem to have an inexhaustible supply of the bushes, clintons, mccains, Trumps, Turnbulls, Howards., Blairs , Bishops……..

    hhhhhhh

  284. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    So yapping on about Fallujah tells us nothing we didn’t know, and in no way exculpates China for crimes against humanity in Tibet and Xinjiang.

    Dude,

    Fallujah is my example of impeccable evidence.

    I’d expect the same rigor when you bleat about ‘Chinese crimes against humanity in Tibet and Xinjiang’

    You’ve offered none,
    Why do I even need to exculpate China, for what ?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @peterAUS
  285. Dmitry says:

    China’s leadership is prioritizing their economy for now – their per capita GDP is still at least a decade or two decades of fast growth, from reaching the OECD average. They have few external threats, so it is a wise decision for them.

    When they’ve fully become a developed country, probably in the 2030s or so, their foreign policy may sharply change (although in what directions, who can yet know). If they can manage to pull it off (getting their per capita GDP to OECD levels), they will be a super-power with by far and away the world’s largest economy.

  286. Dmitry says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    I agree about military being reflection of society

    Largely it is the reflection of investment in military technology. More so in conventional warfare (which we hope the world has seen an end of, at least between large countries), than in asymmetric warfare.

  287. denk says:
    @gT

    100% Correct. Chinese are arrogant peasants, they now have for the first time, seen a little $$$$, and now they think they know and own and are superior to everything.

    Example ?

    And they all think the same way, I’ve never seen diverged views with regards to Tibet or the Uyghurs from a Chinese.

    YOu mean that ‘brutal suppression’ in Tibet/Xinjiang ?
    how so ?

    Or do the Chinese have to concur with your B.S. simply to show
    diversity of opinions ?

    It seems just as we are about to get rid of one problem, the NeoCon Anglo American Zionist bunch,

    In your hallucination perhaps ?
    war drums in SCS, ECS, Korean Peninsula, Iran, Syria, Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Afghan……

    another problem comes to the fore, the ‘Chinese peasants with their big heads’ (to quote another commentator). Thank goodness that right next to China there are a billion shit in the open’ers to help contain this menace :-). We just weren’t meant to live in relaxed mode on this planet.

    How does China menace this planet ?

    • Replies: @gT
  288. @WHAT

    Your just a biologically compromised race of weak willed pleasure loving race of people with pig skin

  289. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Malla

    The silk route reduces the ability of the U.S. navy and their allied navies to disrupt China’s external trade.

    Meantime, it provides the economic stimulus of infrastructure investment and, since the work involves expenditure abroad, helps keep the Yuan exchange rate low, and hence Chinese exports competitive, even if, as rumored, China ceases to purchase US Treasuries.

  290. Malla says:
    @denk

    If this is the best you can offer Im really disappointed. !
    Anecdotal, unverifiable accounts from person of unknown veracity is inadmissible in court .

    More like ‘I do not like it so not admissible in court’. None of your links are any better.
    The truth is an evil marriage of US/British money and Chinese/ Soviet weapons, propaganda and training was used to destabilize Africa to put crackpot socialist dictators in power.

    I dont even bother to read the content.

    Not for the weak hearted, I know.

    The truth is Communist China was just an experiment of Wall street bankers (true for all communist movements including the Bolsheviks as well), to create a slave population for future capitalism, which we see now.

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
  291. @JL

    It seems russians are still having nigtmares after centuries of mongol invasian, seems to me they should be sitting pretty after getting their revenge by taking all of siberia.Russians must think chinese are mongols only with a billion more this might explain the russian phobia.

  292. Malla says:
    @denk

    Dissemination of fake news and fabrication of fake evidence,

    Not true at all. Douglas Reed is a brilliant author, man of repute. He also blames the USA and Britain. It seems USA, Britain, Soviet Union, China were in bed with each other to destroy Portuguese Empire, Rhodesia, South West Africa and South Africa. All that communism vs capitalism is fake. Communists are agents of wall street banker master, always were, always will be.

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
  293. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @denk

    Fallujah is my example of impeccable evidence.

    Impeccable evidence of what?

    That empires commit atrocities?

    I’ve already stated that the do.

    I’d expect the same rigor when you bleat about ‘Chinese crimes against humanity in Tibet and Xinjiang’

    Rigor?

    You say your proof is rigorous?

    All the proof you provided is a newspaper article. LOL.

    And why do you write in such a stupidly aggressive, expletive-laden manner? You sound like a member of the Red Guards denouncing a fellow villager with a view to expropriating his property, once the wretch has been sufficiently humiliated and dragged away for incarceration or execution, if not to be torn limb from limb on the spot.

    One commenter has suggested that some Chinese bloggers here are trolls aiming to bring discredit on China. Certainly you vicious, expletive laden and generally stupid mode of debate is consistent with that view.

    • Replies: @denk
  294. @Malla

    Take it as a sign of respect chinese fear your business acumen and ability to save money, in many ways chinese and indians are very much alike but your ability to bullshit doublespeak and make it sound like the truth like whites, is what the chinese would like to be able to do but is just not able to hence the jealously.

    • Replies: @Malla
  295. @Andrei Martyanov

    Glad you liked it. I generally agree with a notion that I heard that in the long run, a country needs to sell more than crass materialism. As much as the US is often associated with materialism, I think the ability to exert soft power through blue jeans and rock and roll wasn’t merely the presence of easily access to denim but what it represented: individual freedom, opportunity to thrive, and general relaxation of standards.

    Obviously an individual may have different opinions on whether those are civilizationally positive things, but it is certainly very appealing to a large section of the population. From a psychological point of view, “autonomy” is a very strong driver for individual action even though “interrelatedness” appears to be much more helpful against, for example, mental illness.

    As in many things, I often wonder if its due to drivers that were much more helpful for us in a different environment, much as a craving for sweets and high fat foods were more adaptive in an environment when such sources were rare, and maladaptive as obesity in the present day.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @Ivan K.
  296. peterAUS says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Well, I actually agree, up to a point, with most of what you said.

    Let’s just touch the military matters here.

    You are indeed a very lucky man and USA is indeed a very lucky country so far because you did not have to test your theories in real life. i mean facing Soviet military. Considering the posture of NATO forces in Europe at the time with lots of tactical nukes and that would betray different picture from what you are describing and that posture was adopted by far more qualified men than you are.

    Keywords “tactical nukes”. I know exactly what that was all about. Lived through that time. Had that fact calculated into each and every exercise.
    One word, really….M.A.D.

    The matter of the fact and subsequent track record of US land forces after and including WW2 is not exactly encouraging.

    Depends on what part of society you are talking about.
    As far as the rulers of a society are concerned armed forces delivered much more in US than in Russia. Was that better for lower strata of society is different matter.
    I know that the most popular angle in “alt” Universe is that “U.S didn’t win the war since blah…blah…”.
    And whenever I feel like it I just point to a simple fact that the war is extension of politics by other means. And the politics is….well….let’s not go there.

    And now we are getting into the heart of the matter. And, to make my point clear, I believe you are wrong.
    Now, I know no way in Hell either of us will change our position there for a milometer.

    I agree about military being reflection of society , hence you gotta have a hard look at what US society is now.

    Yup.
    That’s the primary reason we all “blather” here. Both you and I aren’t happy how our societies operate. Some people here too. Emphasize on “some”.

    I also agree about later Soviet and modern Russian elites quality. Pretty bad.

    Yup.

    This is what actually saved you and resulted in blop.

    This. No.
    You believe that if only elites had been/were different things would’ve been/would be different.
    How about the question: how come you had those elites then, and even more importantly, how come you have these elites now? THAT is the question.
    And when one starts digging there things start looking very interesting. A bit depressing too.

    But looking at USA now I think that you are not far behind now. Don’t you think the blop cannot happen to you? USA position and reputation now is not exactly what it used to be and it indeed played a big role during what happened in 80′s. USA looked very attractive and had credit card to max. Not anymore and reputation ruined.

    Agree.
    Doesn’t change the fact that Russia is even worse. Which isn’t actually very important, save the possibility that “blop” in Russia could create a very dangerous situation.
    What is important is that the “blop” in USA could create much bigger mess. And, I don’t think it’s likely.
    What I think it’s more likely is The Empire going full force: open oppression at home, regional wars abroad.

    And, yes, the core question there is again: how come that we have ruling elites as we have now? We, living within The Empire?

  297. peterAUS says:
    @denk

    Fallujah is my example of impeccable evidence.

    “Fallujah” caught my eye in posts.
    You are wrong.
    That operation was a school primer how to execute a major urban attack against determined opponent.

    No military of this world could’ve done it better.

    Now, should that attack have been ordered is another matter. Goes back to should that war have happened. Etc. And, of course the answers are “no”.

    But, from a purely military execution point of view, that operation was very good.

    To point to The Empire atrocities you should’ve found better example. Plenty of them around.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @denk
    , @denk
  298. peterAUS says:
    @peterAUS

    Just two elements:
    Plenty of time and enough wide corridor were given to civilians to leave Fallujah before the attack.
    The attack itself was executed by, in essence, infantry; decisions on how to attack/clear a building were done by squad/platoon leaders on the ground who had eyes on the target.

    Simply, that type of operation could not have been done better re civilian protection.

    It’s actually a blueprint.
    I’d suggest studying it.

  299. Malla says:
    @britishbrainsize1325cclol

    Take it as a sign of respect chinese fear your business acumen and ability to save money,

    Chinese are as good as us in this and in some ways probably better.

    but your ability to bullshit doublespeak and make it sound like the truth like whites, is what the chinese would like to be able to do but is just not able to hence the jealously.

    You are one bullshitting here. Chinese are not bad in this art but are we Indians better than them, maybe. And show me one people who are not good at bullshitting doublespeak. Blacks are experts in this and most blacks I know are habitual liars. Arabs the same. In this trait, Jews are Gods. Who are exceptions? Armenians, Greeks, Turks, Thai, Italiano? This is a human trait if you ask me. To bullshit doublespeak is to be human, it seems.

    • LOL: TT
  300. gT says:
    @Malla

    Agreed, the war on the internet between the Chinese and the Indians is not pleasant to observe. Both groups are equally obnoxious. But I’m betting my money on those who shit in the open, not on the peasants with the very big heads.

    • Replies: @denk
  301. @denk

    The anglos keep electing globalist who orchestrate white genocide abroad and at home,

    Granted that contemporary US is not “Anglo” ethnically, culturally it certainly is, for now, the Trump victory testifies to the opposite. Trump is just the first sign of a major race-ethno-cultural split with whites trying to assert themselves. It is not that simple.

    • Replies: @denk
  302. gT says:
    @denk

    How does China menace this planet? Easy, follow the link below and thousands like them on the internet.

    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1251239/why-are-chinese-tourists-so-rude

    Fix up this issue and then I’ll tell you about all the other ways China menaces this planet.

  303. @Daniel Chieh

    I think the ability to exert soft power through blue jeans and rock and roll wasn’t merely the presence of easily access to denim but what it represented: individual freedom, opportunity to thrive, and general relaxation of standards.

    Very true. It was very culturally symbolic. In some sense it was “progressive” in the communist nations insofar as the actual individual freedom goes. Today, however, things changed dramatically with consumer cultural symbols, such as “beloved” by me iPhone, among many, being symbols of cultural imprisonment and degradation. Yet, here lies a trick, cultured (still completely not emerged) new Conservatism and its symbols will (not may) become as powerful as the denim and R’n’R once were. Military tech is one such symbol, so is modern industry–things iPhone generations (for the most part) are simply detached from but many still crave unconsciously this Promethean flavor, which was completely purged from contemporary post-modernist so called “culture”. In fact, the process has started.

  304. @Cratylus

    PPP is the wrong comparator for trade. It is mostly useful for living standards. However, the last major review of prices dates back to 2011 so PPP calculations are outdated anyway.

  305. @Malla

    Thanks. I knew there was a lot of grain in Punjab. I didn’t know why it wasn’t used.

  306. Ivan K. says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Behind the fetishes there also glowed the, already dying, world of articulate and generally amicable people. That was a world that prompted my sensible Irish friend to say, “I’ve never met an American I didn’t like.” It was a culture that enabled an ordinary GI, a lad, to approach a Chief of Staff at a dinner and get a 15-minute )hearing. Such values radiated and added to the effects of propaganda, the presentation of material wealth, and the mere freedom which in itself is, at best, like Rollerball, or passing through a desert.

  307. @Andrei Martyanov

    Yes the Jas Gripen is Swedish designed and is a whole domestically made produce except —tada the engines which are American Pratt& Whitneys if I remmeber correct.
    Part from that good article.

  308. @utu

    Why drivers in China intentionally kill the pedestrians they hit

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.html

    Maybe the reason why is that they are in such a hurry to get to the zoophilia brothel to copulate with a donkey. (That’s a little in-joke…)

    Utu, you’ve really got to stop falling for this kind of fake bullshit. This story about people intentionally killing the people they run over is an urban legend that has been floated about other southeast Asian countries and also other countries, including Russia. Now, sure, there may have been a handful of known incidents, but it is not something that generally happens anywhere, as far as I can tell. Certainly, the people in China are not such rat bastards as that Slate article would portray them as. Frankly, I don’t think the bulk of the population are such rat bastards anywhere.

    Anyway, I remember somebody passed me that Slate link some while back and I was incredulous and I looked into it and found some fairly convincing rebuttals. I dug them up again for your benefit.

    https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-tell-us-about-Chinese-culture-and-society-that-according-to-an-article-on-Slate-drivers-in-China-ensure-that-they-kill-people-who-they-hit/answer/Greg-Blandino

    Well, here’s a shorter one, since you may suffer from a short attention span:

    https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-tell-us-about-Chinese-culture-and-society-that-according-to-an-article-on-Slate-drivers-in-China-ensure-that-they-kill-people-who-they-hit/answer/Terry-Newman

    Snopes, which is pretty useless for somethings, is pretty good for debunking something like this and I just saw that they have a treatment of it: https://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/

    But anyway, utu, you’ve got to work on your BDQ. I gave you (not just you) a fairly powerful tool that I called Revusky’s Razor, the basic concept that nothing of a large scale can happen in a wide-open public place full of people without resulting in a fair bit of visual evidence. You (and some others) claimed that you were incapable of understanding this.

    Or maybe, given a number of months, you have finally figured out that hundreds of women cannot be sexually assaulted in a main city train station without a single incident being caught on camera, so therefore it didn’t happen. I’m not optimistic that you have figured it out. Willful obtuseness seems to be incurable. I still post the above links for anybody wants to look into this particular fake story.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @utu
  309. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Malla

    Re: the ambivalence of Churchill and others.

    It needs to be remembered that famine is as old as mankind. In times past, during a famine, those with either stocks of grain, etc. or money to buy from those with stocked granaries lived, the rest died. Since there was not enough food for all, this outcome was presumably accepted fatalistically.

    Only in the modern age did it become possible to move large quantities of food over huge distances, thus making it possible to largely eliminate famine by moving food from distant surplus regions to famine zones.

    This seemingly obvious fact was not clearly understood as a basis of government action until quite recently. Indeed the Indian economist Amartya Sen received a Nobel prize for, in essence, pointing out that if the government gave money to those in without food in regions where crops had failed, food would materialize through the spontaneous working of the market.

    This realization greatly simplified the the problem of famine relief. All that governments need do is distribute money, which is much easier than distributing food on a non-market basis, a process liable to corruption and incompetence.

    We should not, therefore, judge hard decisions about past famines as we would judge similar decisions today. Solutions based on long distance transportation of food did not exist until quite recently. Prior to the railway and the steamship, regional-scale mass starvation was thus often unavoidable.

    • Replies: @Malla
  310. FB says:
    @Beckow

    ‘…End of liners display very specific characteristics: moronic relativism, hedonism, absurdity, inability to understand that some rules of the game – or constraints – cannot be changed, and, of course, no children. Looking at Western Europe that behaviour is dominant, so what there to save?..’

    What a very precise definition of characteristics…bravo for this articulation…

    • Replies: @Beckow
  311. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    ‘…Airspace is one of those very few enclosed technological cycles which defines national power…’

    You meant to say aerospace…but nevertheless this point is true…

    Today military power hinges largely on aviation and space capability…Here Russia is on a par with the US and pulling ahead due to a degradation of US higher education in technical fields…

    In the commercial sector, aviation is also a huge and growing aspect of economic power…now dominated by the US and Europe…with Russia trying to make a comeback…

    ‘…In general, any nation defends its aerospace market and rightly so…’

    This is a very important point also…

    The Western market for passenger jets has been a slammed door for Russia since day one…for strictly political reasons…not for any objective measure of quality or value…

    This was the case of course even during the cold war…but then Russia had a huge presence in civil aviation in the world due to its client states…

    Post USSR this market does not exist for Russian aviation…the global market for passenger jets has been dominated by the duopoly of Boeing and Airbus for the simple reason that the customers have been airlines from the West and Western client states around the world…

    The West has up until recently accounted for the dominant share of air travel…but people in poor countries are beginning to fly too…

    This means a whole new world is opening up in the civilian aviation sector…What happens when five billion Chinese, Indians and Africans are all flying around as much as Europeans and Americans…?

    The days of the West’s ownership of global air transport are clearly numbered…

    The Western media is full of clown ‘analysts’ who say things like the new Russian-Chinese widebody airplane are going to flop…and they point to Russia’s Ilyushin Il96 as having ‘failed’ against the Airbus A340…

    But the reality is that the Il96 is just as good, if not better, than any Boeing or Airbus widebody…and the only reason no one has been buying it [except Cuba] is for the fact that the airline industry is not some ‘free’ market…

    It is a market held in the iron grip of politics…no Western country is going to buy Russian airplanes…that is like saying that the president of Ford is going to drive a Chevrolet…

    But like I said…the billions of future air passengers is a different story…even China itself is a huge market…at one point Africa with its 1.5 billion people today…and probably 3 billion in 20 years…is not going to mind buying Russian airplanes…in fact they may prefer to do just that…

    We recall that Russia has a long and proud aviation history…the first successful passenger jet in the world was the Russian Tupolev Tu104…and the only passenger jet in the world’s skies between the years 1956 to 1958…

    • Agree: Kiza, Den Lille Abe
  312. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Impeccable evidence of what?

    That empires commit atrocities?

    I’ve already stated that the do.

    ———–

    How could you even deny when the west own MSM, recorded it ?

    All the proof you provided is a newspaper article. LOL.
    ————

    Are you suggesting the likes of NYT and other media psychophants of Washington fabricated war crimes stories to slander their paymasters ?

    And why do you write in such a stupidly aggressive, expletive-laden manner?
    ——-

    Hmm,
    Coming from the one who call me names and malign me a ‘Chinese supremacists’.
    [still waiting for your proof]

    If you’r talking about that four letter word , blame it on the murkkans, I used to watch lots of movies and comics and paperbacks.

    But you aint seen nuthin yet,

    The greatest speech of the century,
    FUCK THE WEST,

    http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_65346.shtml

    A man should call a spade a spade.
    I’d take this guy over those war pigs who have no qualm cheer leading mass murder, but are so politically correct in speech they have to mince words like so, fxxk !

    You sound like a member of the Red Guards denouncing a fellow villager with a view to expropriating his property, once the wretch has been sufficiently humiliated and dragged away for incarceration or execution, if not to be torn limb from limb on the spot.

    ——————-

    Sure, keep looking other way, how Mao ‘murdered millions’ while your gawd’s army bombing away, whats the ‘collateral damages’ in Yemen today ?

    One commenter has suggested that some Chinese bloggers here are trolls aiming to bring discredit on China. Certainly you vicious, expletive laden and generally stupid mode of debate is consistent with that view.

    —–

    See, All ad homein stuffs eh ?
    Try rebutting my points for once ?

  313. denk says:
    @gT

    Agreed, the war on the internet between the Chinese and the Indians is not pleasant to observe.
    ——–

    Not as entertaining as war porn I guess,

    ‘”Waste the motherfuckers!” screamed across the screen in the outrageous and hateful film “Rules of Engagement” (2000), and into the streets and neighborhoods of Fallujah in November 2004. The film is a Samuel L. Jackson military vehicle that celebrates US war crimes from Vietnam to the Middle East, the US slaughter of Muslim civilians, young children included, and Arab bloodletting in general. It is, of course, one film, among many, that prepares US audiences for real manifestations of US aggression and war crimes: torture, slaughter of civilians, children included, and Iraqi bloodletting, as was the case in the “wasting” of Fallujah.’

    Both groups are equally obnoxious.
    —————-

    Do you know why all the pundits in Washington/Delhi keep telling us
    ‘anglos and Indians share the same values’ ?

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48608.htm

    Both stinks thats why,
    hhhhhh

    But I’m betting my money on those who shit in the open, not on the peasants with the very big heads.
    ——–

    I bet you do, I keep hearing they’r your natural soul mates !

    The last time the Indians were foolish enuff to do your bidding, poking the dragons eyes didnt turn out too well tho,
    hhhhh

    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1251239/why-are-chinese-tourists-so-rude

    Fix up this issue and then I’ll tell you about all the other ways China menaces this planet.
    ——————-

    From 1995 Amnesty report,

    Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed or “disappeared”, at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the FIVE EYES are the perpetrators or shares the blame.
    Amnesty International,
    1996′

    I heard you’r ‘just about to get rid of the neocons’ ?
    wake me up after you do that may be we talk about this ‘Chinese menace’

    What an asshole !

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @gT
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
  314. polskijoe says:
    @дулебг

    How do you think China got so rich?

    Connections to Rothschilds and later Rockefellers.
    Kissingers.
    National Committe on US-China Relations

    Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” – Napoleon Bonaparte

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  315. polskijoe says:
    @Malla

    Often socialists (“communists”) and neonazis tend to down play or completely reject
    ideas that the West financed their movements.
    Whether it be the Eastern Establishment, or someone else.

    The amount of connections between financiers, industrialists and bankers to Nazi Germany,
    Communists in China, and also the Chinese Nationalists was large.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    , @Malla
  316. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Jonathan Revusky

    This story about people intentionally killing the people they run over is an urban legend that has been floated about other southeast Asian countries and also other countries, including Russia. Now, sure, there may have been a handful of known incidents, but it is not something that generally happens anywhere, as far as I can tell. Certainly, the people in China are not such rat bastards as that Slate article would portray them as. Frankly, I don’t think the bulk of the population are such rat bastards anywhere.

    My experience of the Chinese in North America leaves me with no reason to suppose that they differ noticeably in moral sensibility from other North Americans. However, there may be, or there may have been, cultural factors distinguishing the Chinese in China from Westerners of whatever racial origin, or so Bertrand Russell suggested in his book, The Problem of China (1922). The sentences in boldface in the excerpt below, remind one of reports that the Chinese troops who gunned down protesters during the Tiananmen Square demonstration laughed about the carnage:

    So far, I have spoken chiefly of the good sides of the Chinese character; but of course China, like every other nation, has its bad sides also. It is disagreeable to me to speak of these, as I experienced so much courtesy and real kindness from the Chinese, that I should prefer to say only nice things about them. But for the sake of China, as well as for the sake of truth, it would be a mistake to conceal what is less admirable. I will only ask the reader to remember that, on the balance, I think the Chinese one of the best nations I have come across, and am prepared to draw up a graver indictment against every one of the Great Powers. Shortly before I left China, an eminent Chinese writer pressed me to say what I considered the chief defects of the Chinese. With some reluctance, I mentioned three: avarice, cowardice and callousness. Strange to say, my interlocutor, instead of getting angry, admitted the justice of my criticism, and proceeded to discuss possible remedies. This is a sample of the intellectual integrity which is one of China’s greatest virtues.

    The callousness of the Chinese is bound to strike every Anglo-Saxon. They have none of that humanitarian impulse which leads us to devote one per cent. of our energy to mitigating the evils wrought by the other ninety-nine per cent. For instance, we have been forbidding the Austrians to join with Germany, to emigrate, or to obtain the raw materials of industry. Therefore the Viennese have starved, except those whom it has pleased us to keep alive from philanthropy. The Chinese would not have had the energy to starve the Viennese, or the philanthropy to keep some of them alive. While I was in China, millions were dying of famine; men sold their children into slavery for a few dollars, and killed them if this sum was unobtainable. Much was done by white men to relieve the famine, but very little by the Chinese, and that little vitiated by corruption. It must be said, however, that the efforts of the white men were more effective in soothing their own consciences than in helping the Chinese. So long as the present birth-rate and the present methods of agriculture persist, famines are bound to occur periodically; and those whom philanthropy keeps alive through one famine are only too likely to perish in the next.

    Famines in China can be permanently cured only by better methods of agriculture combined with emigration or birth-control on a large scale. Educated Chinese realize this, and it makes them indifferent to efforts to keep the present victims alive. A great deal of Chinese callousness has a similar explanation, and is due to perception of the vastness of the problems involved. But there remains a residue which cannot be so explained. If a dog is run over by an automobile and seriously hurt, nine out of ten passers-by will stop to laugh at the poor brute’s howls. The spectacle of suffering does not of itself rouse any sympathetic pain in the average Chinaman; in fact, he seems to find it mildly agreeable. Their history, and their penal code before the revolution of 1911, show that they are by no means destitute of the impulse of active cruelty; but of this I did not myself come across any instances. And it must be said that active cruelty is practised by all the great nations, to an extent concealed from us only by our hypocrisy.

  317. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @denk

    Since I am neither an American nor an Indian it seems rather pointless for you to spew your obscenely expressed racial hatred of both in my direction.

    • Replies: @denk
  318. gT says:
    @denk

    Ok shithead, since you don’t want to catch the message in the link I submitted and are trying to dodge, I guess I have to explain matters properly.

    1) The peasants with the very big heads go to other peoples’ countries and ignore the other peoples’ laws, norms and customs, and instead want to argue that their own laws and norms apply in the other peoples’ countries. So wherever a Chinese person goes, that is China, so to speak, they don’t understand the caveman concept of ‘my roof my rules’, they think that their rules apply to everyone’s’ roofs. So much for 2000 years of civilization.

    2) China has a demographic problem the likes of which no other country has ever seen, 1.4 billion people or something like that.

    3) China is highly dependent on the trade that globalization engenders for its continued success.

    4) The USA, the champion of globalization, constitutes around 50% of the world’s market. But the US is also the biggest debtor nation in the world and its borrowing is becoming increasingly unsustainable, so the global economy is increasingly unstable and at risk of recession.

    At first the US was shipping its manufacturing and industrial duties to China, and in return China was propping up the US by buying US treasuries with its surplus capital. Much like Saudi Arabia and OPEC were only selling their crude oil in US dollars and then investing the dollars back into the US economy. Also the US was busy with its regime changes everywhere, securing access and raw materials for its multinationals, while at the same time destroying or dismantling the manufacturing and industrial concerns in those regions in the name of globalization but actually to make those regions less self-reliant and so easy to control.

    So China was very much an integral part of the NeoCon Anglo American Zionist agenda – destroy manufacturing and industry everywhere, even in the States, and move it to China, though they don’t seem to be so very friendly anymore. Somehow China was supposed to assist with making all countries less self-reliant and so promote globalization and the New Economic Order, yet China somehow escaped the leash maybe and the plan backfired. Blowback is a bitch.

    Going back to points 4 & 3. The global economy is increasingly unstable because around 50% of the global economy, the US economy, is over borrowed, they have been living it up too nicely with other peoples’ money. (Which was part of the NeoCon plan also, because the more you borrow the more control they have over you.) So if the US collapses there will be a global recession. Global recession means less trade, and during a global recession countries generally adopt protectionist measures to safe guard their economies. So China, which is highly dependent on trade, will experience less trade.

    The Chinese market is not self-sustaining yet, it still needs another decade or 2 to become self-sustaining. China still needs lots of trade now, were a global recession to hit now, China would find itself in an uncomfortable situation.

    And China’s uncomfortable position would be made increasingly untenable by point 2, its 1.4 billion people. It could end up with Chinese eating Chinese, so to survive more or less comfortably China would have no choice but to invade other countries to steal their resources and to resettle their people. And because of point 1, there would be no problem with this solution at all.

    So right now the US is taking increasing strain, therefore the global economy is increasingly moving towards recession, and therefore China is increasingly likely to become a menace to the planet. The recession is imminent.

    China was an integral part of the NeoCon Anglo American Zionist agenda before, so its an accessory to the deaths in that Amnesty report.

    • Replies: @gT
    , @denk
  319. Malla says:
    @denk

    I bet you do, I keep hearing they’r your natural soul mates !

    But in Africa, The Chinese commies, the Soviet commies, the US government/ Wall street banker slimeballs and British Government/City of London banker slimeballs became secret soulmateys. What a slimy love fest you guys had before going all out to destroy Rhodesia and the Portuguese Empire in Angola/Mozambique.

    Amnesty International

    Amnesty International and the ‘globalist bankercontrolled corporate communist one world government precursor’, sorry I mean the U.N. were part of the same slimy mega lovefest too.

    hehehehehe

  320. denk says:
    @Malla

    China in bed with the empire ?

    1959 CIA/RAW orchestrated Tibet ‘uprising’
    1962 fukus instigated Indo/Sino war,
    1989 CIA engineered TAM unrest,
    1999 bombing of Chinese embassy, ex Yugo,
    2001. , murkkan spy plane over Hainan, one Chinese pilot killed,
    2008 CIA Tibet bloody riots
    2009 CIA Xinjiang bloodbath,
    2013 ‘Asia pivot’
    2017 the QUAD, aka new eight nations alliance,
    mh 370.
    CIA terrorism targeting Chinese in Africa. , Afpak, SEA,

    This are just the biggies, there were thousands of covert ops, destabilisations over the years .

    The record speaks for itself.

    • Replies: @Malla
  321. Malla says:
    @Malla

    I forgot to add that Marwari baniya traders (mercantile slimeballs who dominate business in India, who dominated trade in Mughal Bengal even before the British became rulers in Bengal, who have a long reputation of looting poor Indian peasants as moneylenders) stocked up grain in their warehouses for profit while their fellow Indians, the Bengalis were dying around them like flies. These same traders have always played a major part in the anti British Indian Independence Swarajist movement.
    But lefties can only see the evul British.

  322. denk says:
    @Malla

    None of your links are any better.

    Markus quoted exclusively from murkkan./Brit declassified doc,

    Are you saying the Brits planted disinfo to frame themselves ?

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @Malla
  323. gT says:
    @gT

    I’m wondering now, China was offered the opportunity to manufacture everything and spend the money earned on the US to help bankrupt your average Joe citizen on the street, and in return China was supposed to get what? Why would China with US assistance get to manufacturing everything at great environmental cost and then spend most of its earnings buying US treasuries? What was China promised in return? Was it Siberia???

    Tough, a resurgent Russia sabotaged that plan so now China is pissed off with its former NeoCon allies. Got to make new buddies.

  324. Malla says:
    @denk

    I am with denk on this one. The West is more of a menace to this planet right now than China. Why can’t the West just leave China and even Russia alone and focus on their own crumbling societies?

  325. Malla says:
    @denk

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48608.htm

    All I see is a frustrated commie, angry that some commie revolutions did not succeed. Before the commie scum could set up their gulags, they themselves got the treatment, they themselves would have given to others (actually worse). Snifff….tears in my eyes.

  326. @polskijoe

    You are a little bit overenthusiastic with your ideas.
    Only initial investment is risky.

  327. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Sorry but how the hell do I know you’r posting as GT as well ?

    • Troll: CanSpeccy
    • Replies: @Malla
    , @denk
  328. denk says:
    @gT

    ‘We’r about to get rid of the neocons’

    Bombs are dropping , war drums are beating all over the planet/ !

    ‘The Chinese tourists are a menace to the world,
    China is the new evil empire’

    Yeah sure, they’r so ‘menacing’ that,
    From Rome to Tunisia to Korea to even hostile Jp, Oz, VN…they’r so panic that visa rules are loosened, Chinese signboards are erected, Chinese speaking staffs are much sought after to lure more of these ‘yellow peril’ to their lands !

    hehehehe

    ‘China’s econ is tanking, they’ll soon be starting wars to grab resources…
    just like us’

    Speak for yourself dickhead !

    No historical precedence of China aping five eyes ‘blood for oil’ style adventures,
    none, nada, zero, zip.
    totally different DNA, those damned Chicoms !

    Absolutely no incentive for them to start it now, recession or otherwise,
    Do you know why kiddie ?
    The Chinese dont have this tradition like the five eyes , who keep electing war pigs into office. !

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @Malla
  329. denk says:
    @peterAUS

    Its a very profound epic, I’m still studying their tactics,
    hope to get back soon. !

  330. denk says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Bushes, Clintons, Obama, Trump., Howards, Blair, Turnbull, Bishops,
    Mccains, ………….

    A people that keep electing corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims… but accomplices

    ― George Orwell

    • Replies: @Malla
  331. AaronB says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Russell’s book on China is one of my favs.

    People should read it to get a sense of how nations change over time. Russell describes the Chinese as magnificently lazy and indifferent to accomplishing anything as compared with “energetic” Westerners (!), and suggests that was responsible for the strikingly higher levels of happinness he found among the Chinese.

    The book is partially an inquiry into the psychological motivations of accomplishment and it’s relationship to happiness and contentment – why the West seemed so unhappy but driven to Russell, and China so happy but lazy.

    Of course, why would anyone read history? We simply “know” that the way nations are today is the way they’ve always been and will be. Things don’t change, we know “essences” are timeless.

    As for Anglo Saxon cruelty, the Elizabethans delighted in bear baiting – but no doubt that has nothing to do with time and place but is just the essence of the Anglo Saxon , or not his essence because by Russell’s time he behaved differently, or both his essence and not his essence. It’s confusing.

    But one thing we know for sure – whatever the Anglo Saxon is now, that he has always been, and will be. It’s his timeless essence.

  332. Malla says:
    @denk

    Markus quoted exclusively from murkkan./Brit declassified doc,

    Are you saying the Brits planted disinfo to frame themselves ?

    And the Brits and muricans keep all these documents around only to be picked up by Mr. Markus? And Mr. Markus spills the beans and the CIA/MI6 crowd are cool with that? And how is Mr. Markus still alive?

    Have you thought about this?

    hehehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
  333. Malla says:
    @denk

    OSS (daddy of the CIA) spy on USSR and NKVD (daddy of KGB) spy on USA. But they both came together like magic against Third Reich Germany and Imperial Japan. And magically the USA gave USSR land lease largess during WW2. Then magically they become Cold War enemies again.

    CIA do trouble in China, but magically American/Japanese/ European companies come to invest in communist China, set up factories, make patented products with high IQ Chinese staff, now America depends on Communist China for many products, Capitalist superpower America in debt to Communist China in billions. What magic!!!!

    USA attack Uncle Saddam’s huge tank army thousands of miles away but magically does nothing to Cuba even after no Soviet Union to protect Cuba and magically have top secret naval base of Guantanamo Bay on Communist enemy Cuban soil. Castro, communist leader magically gets great welcome by Washington in 1959. Bay of Pigs ‘fake attack’ on Cuba but Guantanamo Bay US base very quite during American attack on Cuba. CIA try to kill Castro and Castro escape 200 times, even exploding Cuban cigar not work. Very magic. (Only an idiot will believe this shit and unfortunately many do believe this shit)

    All happen by the magic.
    Relationships between Capitalist devils and Communist heroes very magical (and very very fishy).

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
  334. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Baby Gets Hit BY Two Cars China Hit Run-Ignites Global Anger 2012

    Vehicular homicide? Elderly man in China run over three times by truck driver

  335. denk says:
    @Malla

    I’ll sleep over it ,

    hehehehe

  336. Malla says:
    @denk

    Chinese signboards are erected, Chinese speaking staffs are much sought after to lure more of these ‘yellow peril’ to their lands !

    When you can spend a lot of $$$, people more accepting of menacing, but criticize the patrons amongst themselves in staff room downstairs.
    No worries, Indians also a big menace, so are Israelis. Brown peril & Kosher peril go hand in hand with the Yellow Peril to reach new heights in menacing hapless hosts who want the $$$$.

    hehehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
  337. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    How can I be proud of my China if we are a nation of 1.4bn cold hearts?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/oct/22/china-nation-cold-hearts

    China’s bystander problem: Another death after crowd ignores woman in peril

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/24/chinas-bystander-problem-another-death-after-crowd-ignores-woman-in-peril/?utm_term=.27f76d1e4f03

    The indifference in China

    http://www.esdaw.eu/the-indifference-in-china.html

    Callousness in China
    Chinese Couple Bury Woman Alive, Sparking Outrage
    Two-Year Girl Ignored by 18 Passers-By After Being Run-Over by a Van
    Callousness of People Connected to the Two-Year Girl Ignored by 18 Passers-By
    Gawking Rather than Helping and Don’t Get Involved If It’s Not Your Business

    http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat4/sub18/item2233.html

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @CanSpeccy
  338. Malla says:
    @denk

    A people that keep electing corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims… but accomplices”

    Even hypnotised people? Hypnotized by media & press?

    George Orwell also wrote animal farm which explain Communism far better than Marx, Lenin & Mao could in wildest dreams.

    hehehehe

  339. @AaronB

    A belief in the static nature of people is one of the cognitive biases which I think is difficult for many to escape from. I have definitely been guilty of it myself, and I’ve mused somewhat on why it seems that consideration that dynamic change to a population, especially after disasters – which is often a norm especially one stretches it across a reasonable amount of time, is nonetheless so little considered.

    My conclusion is that it serves as a kind of simplification which helps create a sense of stability that becomes tied to the identity of the holder. For such individuals, to alter perspective or to be refuted equates to an actual attack on his mental integrity, and therefore must be violently defended against. We see this,I think, in a specific element of theater in certain individuals who form arguments largely to further convince themselves rather than anyone else. Its essentially confirmation bias but with the added kick of increasing polarization in order to maintain the stable viewpoint:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_polarization#Attitude_polarization

    Incidentally, I also have very much been fond of B. Russell in general and it should be noted that he was also an immigration skeptic in his own right, and overall he seemed to espouse a sane and coherent mindset.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  340. @utu

    It rarely seems profitable to respond to such obvious trollbait; however, it should be noted that such is largely an evolution of modernity, and most specifically, the result of the Cultural Revolution that among other things, would further encourage ruthlessness – often, the less ruthless didn’t survive. In some ways, this is the encapsulation of what a Western observe in the early 1900s worried about: “What if the Chinese lose their own Eastern morals and simultaneously reject Western morals?”

    Combine that with vast changes due to internal migration and an overall low-trust culture, if anything, its surprising that such isn’t more common. Nonetheless, the fact that it was publicized and noted in the state media of all things, shows that it is something that as a population, they are hardly proud of and at any rate, has been improving along with overall levels of civility. Note that most of those were very early 2010s, where the culture of “anything goes corruption” was pretty common especially in Shanghai & Guangdong. This has been gakked pretty totally by Xi for better or worse.

    Of course, I only lived there during the worst in 2010-2011. What would I know?

    • Replies: @TT
  341. @polskijoe

    There is very little doubt that what transpired between China and the West since mid-1970s and, especially, since Clinton Admin extending the Most Favored (now NTR, IIRC) status for China is the single largest transfer of technology and know-how in human history. Simply unprecedented. The United States (primarily) literally grew and honed own worst enemy–this, pretty much, answers the question on the nature of a contemporary American state. United States literally sold to China the rope on which China will hang the US. In fact, the noose is tightening as I type this. Who will kick the chair from under the American feet? That is 64 million dollar question.

  342. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @AaronB

    As I said, whatever exceptional traits that may be attributed to the Chinese, it is likely a consequence of culture, and culture as we know evolves or may be radically transformed, as in China under the brutal Communist regime of Mao.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  343. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Hey, direct this to Revusky, not me.

    But, incidentally, don’t you think there must be just about as many reports of grotesquely callous behavior by Americans, Muslims, Indians or whoever, as by Chinese?

    • Replies: @utu
  344. @AaronB

    Actually the industrial part of China is a strip of land near the seashore.
    Relatively tiny part of land in comparison to the peasant countryside.
    So in China are two distinct and markedly different separated cultures.

    • Replies: @Malla
  345. Malla says:
    @polskijoe

    You forgot to mention the Soviet Union itself, thanks to Mr. Jacob Shiff the banker of New York. Rothschild’s agents (all from the chosen of yahweh the mighty) were attacking the Tsars long before the October revolution. It seems the Romanovs wisely blocked a Rothschild plan to build a League of Nations/ U.N. of it’s day. From that time onwards, the Romanovs have been strangely facing terror threats after terror threats from the Chosen of yahweh the mighty.

    Also all anti colonial (independence) movements after the 1900 were financed by the bankers.

    • Replies: @polskijoe
  346. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yeah, I’ve also fallen into that mindset. We all have at some point, it’s just one of those basic human temptations.

    My conclusion is that it serves as a kind of simplification which helps create a sense of stability that becomes tied to the identity of the holder

    Very well said. We fear chaos and uncertainty, and impose simplified patterns on reality to create the illusion of control. So much of science has its basis in anxiety, it seems to me. The West is surely the culture of anxiety, to have needed so much control.

    Our own identities are in flux, as you observe, and we secretly doubt our own significance. By making the outside world solid, we “pin it down”, and solidify our own significance (which derives, we think, from our relationship to an unchanging world).

    It’s all an attempt to keep nihilism at bay, the search for unchanging “essences”. It’s why Buddhism tells us to give up our futile search for an underlying essential substance – it’s the source of suffering.

    The “alternative” approach is to recognize that nihilism isn’t the problem – running from nihilism is. We are all nothings, and we can embrace our nothingness and exult in our cosmic liberation from the burden of “significance”, rather than desperately seek to become “somethings” through all our grand and grandiose projects.

    In fact, we already are “everything”, and nothing needs to be done.

    We see this,I think, in a specific element of theater in certain individuals who form arguments largely to further convince themselves rather than anyone else. Its essentially confirmation bias but with the added kick of increasing polarization in order to maintain the stable viewpoint:

    It seems to me that’s a very important insight, that polarization helps stabilize identity. “War is a force that gives us meaning” – there is a reason America , the country founded on fleeing human nothingness through constant “achievement”, finds it necessary to be at constant war in order for Americans to convince themselves they are, in the end, “somethings”.

    Otherwise, they would have to confront the human condition in all its starkness.

    Well, I apologize for my meandering reply! But the “spirit bloweth where it listeth”, and each thought suggests new angles and connections. And I know you don’t fully agree with much that I say here, Daniel :)

    As for Russell, yeah, he’s pretty fantastic overall. Often seen as overly dry and logical, but he had a deep humanistic strain that was sensitive to mysticiism.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @utu
  347. AaronB says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Ok cool, that seems sensible.

    My remarks on “essences” were not so much against you as against a very strong tendency among people here on unz.

    And it’s stupid, although Daniel has given a good explanation for why it’s so tempting.

  348. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @AaronB

    As for Russell, yeah, he’s pretty fantastic overall. Often seen as overly dry and logical, but he had a deep humanistic strain that was sensitive to mysticiism.

    But remember, he was for world government and for nuking the Soviets.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  349. utu says:
    @AaronB

    he had a deep humanistic strain

    Bertrand Russell’s Advocacy of Preemptive War, 1945-1949

    http://www.academia.edu/9452633/Bertrand_Russells_Advocacy_of_Preemptive_War_1945-1949

    Once the Soviet attitude was clear, some prominent Europeans proposed using the American atomic monopoly to maintain the monopoly. Best known among these is Winston Churchill. But far less remembered is the fact that Bertrand Russell, perhaps the greatest British pacifist of the 20
    the Century, loudly advocated for preemptive war up to the time when Soviet Russia finally acquired the Bomb

    “If America were more imperialistic (…) it would be possible for Americans to use their position of temporary superiority to insist upon disarmament, not only in Germany and in Japan, but everywhere except in the United States, or at any rate in every country not prepared to enter into a close military alliance with the United States, involving compulsory sharing of military secrets. During the next few years this policy could be enforced; if one or two wars were necessary, they would be brief, and would soon end in decisive American victory. In this way a new League of Nations could be formed under American leadership, and the peace of the world could surely be established. But I fear that respect for international justice will prevent
    Washington from adopting this policy.”

    • Replies: @polskijoe
    , @AaronB
  350. Malla says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    That is true but the cities in the interior of China are pretty impressive.

    This is Lanzhaou city which is really interior in Gansu province, a province which borders the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region.

    Chengdu, a city in Sichuan Province, a Province which borders Tibet, so it is quite interior China

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  351. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    don’t you think there must be just about as many reports of grotesquely callous behavior by Americans, Muslims, Indians or whoever, as by Chinese?

    Probably, but it depends on the type of the callous behavior. The cases I cited are striking only because they are so pragmatic which is an essence of Chinese Confucian value system. They make a perfect sense from the Chinese point of view. That’s why they may indicate something bigger, a tip of an iceberg.

    Keep also in mind that I brought up this issue irritated by the phony AaronB who likes to pontificate on spirituality and the lack of it in the West in alleged contrast to harmonious and spiritual East and China in particular.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  352. AaronB says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Lol, yes, Russel had his issues, and he never really integrated the lessons of his encounter with traditional Chinese culture and it’s emphasis on “laziness” into his world view – he still thought the world could be saved by more “doing”.

  353. AaronB says:
    @utu

    utu, you must realize that I am talking about traditional Eastern culture, not modern Asia.

    I am a very harsh critic of modern Asia. You know that.

    I’m also only critical of the modern West, and have said that the traditional West was as spiritual as Asia.

    You’re being unnecessarily stupid.

    Being a White Nationalist rots the brain. You used to be capable of nuance. A pity.

    • Replies: @utu
  354. @Andrei Martyanov

    The reason of all this is simple. America had it very easy. Despite all the pathos no other great power in the history had it so good both in America’s and then in Europe where the real Victor of ww2 was so exhausted that was unable to enjoy spoils of the war to the fullest. Obviously, easy comes easy goes. Add to this the upper hand financial parasitic sector gained by that time and this is it.

  355. @Andrei Martyanov

    Another thought is that the whole one road one belt iOS substitute for American markets to allow China to do just that. Kick the chair. For now China and USA are in dual DEPENDENCY, but introduction of the gold yuan based oil futures look like first tenderising blows to American stake.

  356. utu says:
    @AaronB

    You know that I know your schtick. You are phony.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  357. AaronB says:
    @utu

    Ah, well, you got me figured out.

    I should have known I could not fool you by criticizing ego wherever I find it.

    Now that I’m unmasked, I’ll have to openly pursue my secret agenda of criticizing ego wherever I find it.

    It’ll be tough.

    • Replies: @utu
  358. polskijoe says:
    @Malla

    Indeed I forgot to add that… I am very familiar with that. They fund both sides at various periods.

    Schiff was the 2nd most influenctial banker in the US after Morgan. Another name was Warburg (one side came from Germany to USA).

    They hated the Czar (possibly for the Pale of Settlement, possibly Jewish tribalism and antiRussian sentiment, or simply because he was a Christian).

  359. polskijoe says:
    @utu

    You are talking about Russel (the Fabian Socialist)?
    He was similar to HG Wells. They didnt like Stalin apparently.

    It was Shaw and Webbs who were more authoritiarian and aggressive.

    But its possible what you said.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  360. denk says:
    @peterAUS

    But, from a purely military execution point of view, that operation was very good.
    —————

    They have in fact bragged about it as a text book case study for West Point,

    ‘ We learned this week, November, 2005 the US used naplalm and white phosphorus in Fallujah, leaving children, women and men burnt to the bone. The US Army journal “Field Artillery” reported how, during the US attack on Fallujah in November 2004, “White Phosphorous…proved to be an effective and versatile munition [and…] a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents” when high explosives were ineffective in routing people from “spider holes.” White phosphorus was used “to flush them out and [high explosives] to take them out.”

    “High explosives” included “AC-130 Specter gunship support.” “Tactics, techniques and procedures” we are told “were effective and lethal.”

    To point to The Empire atrocities you should’ve found better example. Plenty of them around.
    ———-

    Like I say this is just the tip of an iceberg.

    But other than its technical perfection [sic],
    its also a text book case of US barbarism.

    Alexander Cockburn

    “If there is anything that should fuel the outrage of the antiwar movement [in the US] it is surely the destruction of Fallujah and the war crimes…inflicted by US commanders on its civilian population.”

    Except there were none !

    Yet when China launched its rail way into Tibet, Indian/Canucks/murkkan/Brit [1]
    SJW felt so outraged by that ‘cultural genocide’ they flew 3000 miles all the way to Beijing to stage a protest !

    Go figure !

    No military of this world could’ve done it better.
    ———————-

    Nobody except the West who has the biggest gun could’ve done this better, get away with it and gloats on its brilliance.

    [1]
    whose countries have a human rights record 1000 times worse than what they accuse China of .

  361. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    the Chinese troops who gunned down protesters during the Tiananmen Square demonstration laughed about the carnage:
    —————

    Citation ?

    In case you havent noticed , that TAM ‘massacre of unarmed protestors’ [1] B.S. had been debunked long time ago,

    http://www.gregoryclark.net/jt/page85/page85.html

    [1]
    Rings a bell ?
    ‘massacre of unarmed protestors’ in
    TAM/Tibet/Xinjiang/Kosovo/Libya/Syria/Myanma………

    • Replies: @denk
  362. denk says:
    @Malla

    Actually some guys brag about such ‘transparency’ to me once in guardian,
    ‘yes we’ve skeletons in the cupboard but we dont hide it’

    Trouble is, there’r one too many such skeletons, runs in the thousands perhaps ?

    To paraphrase Ian Flaming ,
    Once might be transparency, twice looks like cruelty , thrice……… hypocrisy.

    Like flaunting their trophies, the way top guns etched their kills on their killing machines.

    • Replies: @Malla
  363. denk says:
    @Malla

    No mention on the whiteys, brutes who beat up cabbies in Singapore, drunkards who wallop total strangers in the streets, asshole who ordered a guy to get off a subway train cuz he didnt like the shirt the victim worn, paedophiles who flocked to Thailand./Cambodia …..?
    [tip of an iceberg]

    $$$$, yes but only up to a point .

    In OKinawa many depend their livelihood on the murkkan bases, yet when those univited guests inflicted too much damage on its land and unbearable pain on the people, all bets are off….!

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @Malla
  364. denk says:
    @Malla

    Hmm,

    Food for thought !

  365. denk says:
    @denk

    Canspeccy,

    Havent you replied to a post I directed at GT ?

  366. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @polskijoe

    He was similar to HG Wells. They didnt like Stalin apparently.

    On the contrary, Wells had the greatest respect for Stalin saying at the end of an interview that he conducted with Stalin in 1934:

    I am very grateful to you for this talk, which has meant a great deal to me. …

    I cannot yet appreciate what has been done in your country; I only arrived yesterday. But I have already seen the happy faces of healthy men and women and I know that something very considerable is being done here. The contrast with 1920 is astounding.

    Following that interview, Wells wrote:

    “I have never met a man more fair, candid, and honest”

    • Replies: @polskijoe
  367. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    There is very little doubt that what transpired between China and the West since mid-1970s and, especially, since Clinton Admin extending the Most Favored (now NTR, IIRC) status for China is the single largest transfer of technology and know-how in human history. Simply unprecedented.

    Somewhat true. But China would likely have caught up anyway, with or without U.S. help, because technology spreads rapidly. For example, the West (and Russia) adopted China’s Four Great Inventions (printing, paper, gunpowder, compass) very quickly. Another example: Britain easily won the first Opium War, but it took the combined strength of the West (including the U.S.) to narrrowly win the second Opium War. So even with no help, China would have caught up eventually. Just knowing that something is possible is half the battle.

    So the U.S. was only hastening the inevitable. They might as well have profited from it, and they did.

  368. Malla says:
    @denk

    Much more complicated than that. Nations like Britain or Murrica are tools used by the banker elites to attain their objectives throughout the world. The leftoid press controlled by the same banking elites spill the beans to make Whitey look bad to increase our hatred for their Whitey tools (for the eventual planned extermination of Whitey using us non Whites as tools in that grizzly deed) . Banking elites take advantage of British Empire then fund fake independence struggles against it!!!! Zio elites loot behind the shield of British Empire/ Dutch Empire/ French Empire and then the agents of the same Zio elites come to darkie and tell darkie how evul Whitey is for doing bad to them (while it is the short Zio elite sum doing so hiding behind tall White Aryan man) and to revolt and create mayhem.
    Zios use Whiteys as weapons against the rest of the world in a mega scale (Invasion of Iraq being an example) by lying to naive Whitey masses about spreading democracy and then use non Whiteys as weapons in a smaller scale (allow darkie immigrants into Whitey countries and encourage immigrants to hate and attack Whitey and his society). Nice trick of making goyim fight amongst themselves. As Yahweh the mighty said ‘I will make brother fight against brother, Egyptians against Egyptians’ or something of that sort. That is give away to one of their many ancient tricks.

    hehehehehehe

  369. Malla says:
    @denk

    Ofcourse there is the ‘White Peril’ too. Britshits, arrogant Krauts, murricans (shouting USA USA USA in odd places) and arrogant rough Ruskies for example. Ibitza in Spain is full of such crazy Britshits and even some towns in Bulgaria. But Bulgarians and Spanish keep quite and accept everything to get the ££££.

    But for every single Britshit, arrogant Kraut, Yankee or Ruskie you get many Whiteys (including British, Germans, Americans and Russians) who are quite civilized, clean, tip well, make the good guests/tourists, so gets balanced out. For every single arrogant cheap smelly Indian desi tourist you get 0.01 civilized desi tourist to balance that out. So overall impression stay negative, it stay in the red.

    In OKinawa many depend their livelihood on the murkkan bases, yet when those univited guests inflicted too much damage on its land and unbearable pain on the people, all bets are off….!

    There is limit to how much hosts can take. Therefore Okinawans angry with Muriccan soldiers and Muriccans/Europeans/Australians/Singaporeans angry with immigrants. If Indian or Israeli tourist stay for too long in same hotel, hotel boss and staff too will behave like Okinawans in the picture with placards (before burning down he hotel).

    BTW hotels in Thailand put up ‘No Israeli’ signs outside doors.

    https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/236776-whats-it-like-to-be-israeli-in-thailand/

    hehehehe

    And also Japanese make best tourists

    https://www.internations.org/world-forum/worst-tourists-in-the-world-37748

    Hey I never knew French cheezies had such a bad reputation too.

    This website below sez that Chinese tourists are soulmates of Britshits, Germans, Murricans and Israhelli tourists. We Indians are off the hook according to this website at least.

    http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/travel/article/2102308/who-are-worlds-worst-tourists-six-nations-stand-out

    hehehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
  370. @Vidi

    “But China would likely have caught up anyway, with or without U.S. help,”

    No. China was mightily struggling before Clinton. Compass, paper and gunpowder is very simple things… Not exactly technologies and science of later times. Great leap forward as attempt to follow Soviet example. How did it go?

    • Replies: @Vidi
  371. Erebus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    … the single largest transfer of technology and know-how in human history. Simply unprecedented.

    China’s great leap forward came when it joined the WTO in 2001. America’s sponsorship was instrumental in China gaining membership despite not meeting many of the de jure requirements. In a clear case of betrayal by its elite, they not only bestowed an undeserved MFN status, they kick-started the hollowing out of American manufacturing by allowing closing factories’ relocation costs to be tax deductible.

    In doing so, they saved the USD/UST complex, and so their own wealth to the detriment of the nation. My read of it is that the deal was essentially a Saudi Arabian -American petro-dollar redux. China demanded, and got access to the American automotive parts market and started accumulating UST paper by the boxcar load.

    Triffen’s Dilemma demands that the issuer of the reserve currency must run ever increasing trade deficits that increase at an accelerating rate if it is maintain reserve status. By the turn of the century, the US had run out of places it could send the dollars. China mopped them up with a vengeance, reaching ~$3T at one point. Once there, however, they started getting ideas….

    In return, the Chinese promised to open their financial system to American, and American controlled financial institutions. Unfortunately, and despite all manner of rulings, demands and entreaties, the Chinese never quite got to the point where they were ready to deliver their end of the deal. Despite the fact that 4 of the world’s 5 top banks are Chinese, and 18 of the top 100, somehow, their financial system was never quite “ready”… too “immature”, too fragile, the regulations hadn’t all been written, blah, blah, blah… to allow foreigners to participate.

    Anyway, a decade and a half later they hold the Sword of Damocles over the USD and its Empire. They’ll let slip when the time suits them, but in the meantime will extract whatever concessions they can.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  372. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Look like another lengthy Andrei’s Russia Great, China Bad. Best keep to your familiar RUSSIA military writing or translate some Russian military sources that we have interest, not BS something not in your domain.

    In my close observations, in China-Russia, sorry its RUSSIA-china alliance to counter hegemonic US, Chinese has been consistently very positive & supportive about Russia, but Russians seem holding Chinese in contempt regardless how much China help it against US sanctioned strangle. Such Russian’s inferrior complex induced arrogant & ingratitude is likely felt by its much poorer neighbors like Ukrainian, Poles, Georgian too, which may be why they also dislike Russia?

    This has reinforced my view that Russian is not a trustable ally to my country compared to Chinese, as historically Russians have been aggressor gobbling neighbors land whenever it becomes strong, million of km2 from Northern China. And they don’t keep their words, so Napoleon got so pissed off to march his army to the untrustworthy Czar. I am glad my country is not next to Russia to worry when it feels its strong enough to roll it’s tanks over us.

    Because this article is flawed, i would like to point out some obvious lengthy nonsensical points:

    [[Enter the 21st Century. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US Navy lost its only modern peer—the Soviet Navy.]]

    SU had never been a modern peer of USN before its collapsing, as its defensive strategy was different from global power projection rich US, that’s why SU never owned or can afford a fleet of 10,000tons caircraft carriers. Before collapsing, SU Navy is already in dilapidated state, nothing close to peer.

    Huge USN is more than for controlling SLOC, its also for Western colonists imperial power expansion/projection since last few centuries, particularly for hegemonic US now. China is quite unique, its the only Permanent UN Security Member without such projection power until very recent, simply for SLOC purpose as its trades balloon globally, as well as defending against US threat and defending its territories. When it had greatest Navy lead by Zhen He in ancient time, it only did peaceful exploration without going around attacking and plundering others like Europeans, Japanese or Russians. Obviously Chinese have a different DNA & civilization.

    [[Today, trade deficits of such a scale are among the most important drivers behind contemporary geopolitical upheaval.]]

    Nonsense, its about similar Anglosaxon greed that they want to buy best China teas with opium. US has Trade deficit with nearly all its trade partners, did US attacking all? All those countries facing US & Nato aggression have no trade deficit, not even a peanut. These are US parasitic lifestyle enabled through Petrol dollars coerced by military intervention policy to control whole world with its proxy governments. Germany, Korea & Japan have big trade surplus globally too. Are the world having upheaval with them? No, because they are US allies, its all about US, EU, Japan team up to contain China & Russia uprising, to keep their cheese. Russia is very sore in been kick out of G7+1, similar to historical eight alliance that once raped China Qing Dynasty. And Russians like Andrei may be still dreaming to joint that old alliance Russian once plunder China, no matter how much China has help Russia now?

    [China is and precisely in that sector where the United States produces next to nothing—consumer goods.]

    China produce not just consumer goods stocking up your walmart. We can brag in comments, but responsible columnist should do study before writing.

    China produces a wide range of products, many are in leading, Industrial(all kinds), Agricultural(No.1 in many food producing, fertilizer, tractor, tools), Telecommunications(Huawei & ZTC are leaders in Telcom Equipments, not just mobile phone), Machineries & Tools, Shipbuilding, Oil Rigs, Transportation, Infrastructures, Pharmaceutical, aerospace, electronics, computers, nuclear plants, military wares, solar panels, green energies…long list to go. Even Boeing planes have some parts make in China. China will continue its vertical growth until it will sell you everything in complete eventually, including commercial planes, satellites, spaceship…you name it. This is what make US, EU, Japan wake up midnight in cold sweating, not trade deficit. China is ready to give US a long list of items it can purchase or invest to offset, but US is afraid to do. So another opium war?

    [[Chinese project is far more than just an exercise in charity which it certainly is not. China, with her excessive industrial capacity, is in it for a much bigger prize than the United States, with its sluggish consumer market and declining standard of living. Nor are Africa or Eurasian subcontinent the targets, although often placed in the center of Chinese considerations. The name of the Chinese game is Europe. Without Europe, the One Belt and Road initiative becomes merely an expansion into large but mostly poor markets in Asia. The Philippines or Indonesia cannot compare to the advanced economies of Germany or France. Europe, not just the EU, is a different game. With her almost 750 million population and a GDP larger than that of China or the US, Europe is the only truly wealthy market left in the world. China desperately needs access to this market both through the land bridge and SLOCs and it is here where the geopolitical dance of the century becomes extremely intricate.]]

    Obor is more than charity for sure, no country will throw trillions to build infrastructures for nothing. But its basis is more than your simple understanding. First, its not simply about exporting its huge excessive manufacturing capacity, but also to liberate a huge untapped potential global market by providing very efficient supply chain infrastructure & cost for 2ways trading. Secondly, its about facilitating resources import it needs at best efficiency & cost. Thirdly, infrastructures is a strategic long term investment for China with its know how & experience gained through its vast development. Think of its gigantic steels & cements industries.

    When Obor is completed, it will entirely revolutionize global supply chain. Many countries will able to trade efficiently by land & seas, removing transportation constraints & cost that make what not possible today for trade become profitable tomorrow.

    Its more about growing huge potential markets in developing countries, esp Asia, Eurasia & Africa. Obor will help these poorer esp land locked countries to build critical infrastructures, thus enable them to trade efficiently in exporting their ex-colonial exploited natural resources for better price, supercharging their economy along Obor hence growing its domestic market for more consumption, forming a positive cycle for global prosperity.

    “Europe is Chinese Obor game, without, its expansion to nowhere like poor Asia Indonesia?” OMG, how foolish can one think with a yesterday mindset in this new era, still wet dreaming White US & Europe is superior rich, Brown Yellow Asia is forever poor. The future is now shifting to these developing Asia. Anything Asian China, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan had achieved, there will be billions of Asians to duplicate given right condition. These Asians are scoring better than Japanese & Russian, Europeans in many international ratings when their education get improved, like Vietnam & Thailand.

    Even Putin has waken up to this truth after decades of humiliating rejection by its so dearly called partners: US & EU, declaring its future is with Eurasia not EU, yet Andrei is still finding fantasy in it.

    The biggest markets of Obor game are these huge untapped developing countries like South Asians, Aseans esp Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam landlocked Eurasia & Africa, ME, SAmerica, fuel with billions of growing young vibrant population who will buy anything China can sell. Not those overspending bankrupted Europe or US, that have no growth potential but decaying on money printing, and already saturated with everything that China can’t force them to watch 5 TV with one pair of eyes or carry 10 cell phones in exchange for their fiat paper.

    Interestingly India & Japan think they should boycott Obor with US, but also jump into this infrastructure bleeding competition, so they will invest heavily in African route, India-Myanmar-Thailand-Vietnam-Japan route, Iran seaport, Sri Lanka airport, Myanmar seaport…but for who to use? For China to export and import of course. Only a fool like India(Japan to some extend) is squandering its domestically badly needed investment for stupid pride bloated by US toxic sweet words, but has nothing to sell, nothing to import. It will help China save the first decade cost of obor layout. When India bleed to death, its about time China has enmassed enough economic of scale to start making profit to take over.

    [[There is a lot of talk about the Russia-Chinese alliance, as well as about Russia being a junior partner in such an alliance.]]

    Andrei is still whining this junior partner thing in groaning pain till this day. No one in this world talk about who is senior now but equal partner, except US. But in true fact, the whole world today can live without Russia overnight, not without China! That speaks volume for itself how Andrei wish of Russia been SENIOR to China is just a wet dream.

    [[But the question remains—in the case of an inevitable US-China trade war, which may go hot on “neutral” territory, will the Chinese Navy (PLAN) be able to defend its SLOCs from the interdiction by the US Navy?]]

    Today’s war is fought in multi levels including asymmetric weapons, economic & financial tools all closely intertwined, not just warships. Try sink a PLAN aircraft carrier or do a blockage, see what happen? China can retaliate with, say its supersonic missiles(oh, only Russia has all these toys that make it great and US will wet its pants on seeing Russians coming?). Many fighting are now done by precision missiles now, a 3G warplane can win a 5G with top missile system(or by brute force 3 exchange for 1), a simple warship missiles can sink an aircraft carrier. Even North Korea can threaten US now without any capable Navy.

    What about China sell down treasury & dispose all USD? US stop trading with China, whose people goes into hysteria first? Try risk escalate to full war involving nuclear? Or go devastating trade war crashing global economy? Can US or EU stomach it without self destruction or uprising in this interwoven globalization world? Pls stop thinking in one dimension. These are China massive asymmetric power it has enmassed that Russia can only dream of.

    [[India also sees the Chinese naval presence in the Indian Ocean as a threat to herself. It is not surprising therefore to see increased cooperation between the US and Indian Navies.]]

    India sees & acts everything from its petty narrow domestic Hinduelitism views to the pain in ass for everyone, including US & Russia, even my country. But China does not even view 2nd tier India as its peer, only US fit the role, and EU to lesser role. Moldy is opportunist playing game using US to contain China, so it gets all the massive tech transfer & economic booster, but still perform badly as a US shithole.

    [[China needs Russia’s resources, which Russia gladly sells to China, but China also needs Russia’s technology and she needs it desperately.]]

    Russia never gladly sells its resources to China, but for no better choice. When China offer to link its oil & gas pipelines years ago as strategic partnership, Japan Abei sabotaged by offering to finance a pipeline to the shores which Putin happily forsaken Beijing. When Putin found it got tricked by US, Nato & Japan and in existential threat, then it make a U-Turn to woo China back. Russia also hold Ukraine & EU ransom with its gas. This is why Russia cannot be an trusted ally to China. So China has make a policy to purchase large part of its oil from multiple sources, and ensured Russia paid for most piping investment as collateral.

    China needs Russia technology desperately? Name me some pls? What kind of nonsense you can still dream of to this extend. Other than some military tech that China required to shorten its catch up, there is nothing China needs from completely Outdated Russia(well outdated doesn’t means bad). Russia is lucky to have Putin leading it to reinvigorate now, still its far from been able to make such boasting.

    [[Russia has been building for the last decade. With Europe slowly coming to some understanding of the dead end of its cultural and economic policies, it is becoming clear that Europe sees neither China nor the United States as friends.]]

    By keep asserting Russian’s European roots, even start self indulge in worries on Whites Christian European civilization…. no amount of humiliation and rejection plus sanction from EU is enough to wake Russians like Andrei up. EU don’t see Russia as friend or equal Whites European, nor its Eastern Orthodox as their Christian peers but another propaganda soft tool. They see Russians as only some distant poor, inferrior, corrupted fair skin Siberian who cannot be trusted with long history of aggression, trying to stick up with rich EU. European has valid historical worry that whenever Russia become strong, it will start to expand into its neighbors land.

    US is forever European natural ally as its still largely a European colony, never Russian. Change a right US government, EU will embrace US again. If someone like Gorbachev, Boris & Putin can’t woo US/EU with their back bend so backward, then what can Andrei suggest to all Russians, bend further forward and backward swinging hips exposing genitals & asses will do the job? Stop that self humiliation to try becoming a rejected outcast White European, and befriend your Eurasians that treat you respectfully as equal.

    Whereas for China, EU trusted China more than Russia as they know clearly, China is no security threat to them for thousands of years, there will never be China red armies rolling to them, only red goods flooding their supermarkets and Christmas to their delights. Germany know where the future belong, so it collaborate closely with China. UK knew too, so it jump into AIIB against US threat. France is doing some catch up now under Macron, but it has nothing much to offer. Japan is in own dig in shit hole, dying to have good sex with rich neighbour(China market) but afraid of pregnancy(afraid China takes revenge for its war unrepentant). EU is still uneasy with China rising, but it will eventually accept it like another US.

    [[Russian-Chinese long-range wide-body CR 929 aircraft, which gives China access to world-class Russia’s commercial aircraft design and technologies.]]

    Another brainless bragging of Russian might. Since when in history Russia has world class commercial aircraft design & tech besides all infamous fatal crash? China don’t need Russia involvement to develop, except it may take her longer time to reach its goal. China newspaper widely published that its government had accepted Putin request in this JV for strategic reason, such as utilizing Russia’s existing commercial plane qualification scheme.

    Recently Airbus just declared if it don’t get new order from Emirate(only airline still can afford), it will close down its A340 superjet line. Bombardier unable to survive, already sold to Airbus. With market moving so dynamic, who know EU may figure out like Germany did, instead of waiting to rot itself while waiting for China to develop its planes to out sell everyone, it might as well collaborate with China JV to keep half the global market, or at least a share of China huge market. If a country can send human up to do space walk, jumbo jet is not something an incredible task, just about priority and time frame. China’s domestic market alone can support this pricely product, not Russia. China know too well it must have own commercial jets now, so it will not be held hostage like Iran crippled aviation, or having thousands of planes controlled by USM into flying missiles. And there are countries awaiting such alternative too.

    [[Then, by openly stating her European cultural roots, Russia has asserted her claim to be the very real bridge between Asia and Europe and she has all the necessary economic, technological and military wherewithal to support such a claim.]]

    Andrei is still living in his commie Soviet Union era, dreaming of its mighty glory but sorrowful ruin state, and admire everything of US or European as superior, deeply DESPERATE to seek love & recognization from its dearest Europe who had flatly rejected her pursuing & begging. Russia has no necessary economy & technology to support such claim. No one in the world needs Russia in between besides ME, but a small link from Obor courtesy of China is all its small markets worth. Russia only export Energy is best serve by piping, not rails…may be some wheats.

    So sore about been rejected by their dream groom European, Andrei needed someone he can play down to boost its hurting pride, hyping old drama of 1950′s backward war weakened China that “desperately” needs everything from Vodka Stronk Russia.

    [[Russia, the US, China and Europe. These four players must sort their problems out in a peaceful and civilized way—there is no other viable option. The only alternative is a bloody destructive triumph of Navalism.]]

    Navalism is only part of the Geopolitical game. Economy is the real core when on par, to support the development of everything including new technology & huge military machine. That’s how US surpassing Soviet. Only US & China are in this Duo Polar game League. Fragmented Europe is not yet a credible player. India at most 2nd tier. Russia simply not in this league, keep dreaming.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  373. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    And Andrei hint its a warning shot by V. Putin to China: that Russian is White, European, Christian. China is not, don’t dream of becoming another US.

  374. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Wong

    When come to China, its always 3rd developing world to associate with, all their technologies are not worthy 3rd class just putting some IC together, US and Japan are world class superior. But come to Russia, then its has all the economy, technologies and superior military might that US and Japan should cry for mommy.

    So the only real SUPER Power today is RUSSIA high on vodka. But irony, its leaders are always kowtow to seek recognition from its dearest Western partners that Russians do belong to their White Christian European class, though they don’t give a damn but more military aggression and sanctions.

    It reminds me of some type of people, they look down on those who treated them well, but so keen to close up wagging tails licking boots with those who are capable to keep smashing their face.

  375. @Vidi

    But China would likely have caught up anyway, with or without U.S. help, because technology spreads rapidly.

    Making refrigerators and TVs? Sure. Dual use and purely military ones–good luck “spreading” them, this is precisely the field in which China lags. Again, count how many times COMAC C919 flew since May 1, 2017? This, mind you, while flying on US-French LEAP engines. Three flights.

    So even with no help, China would have caught up eventually.

    I doubt it very much.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @PandaAtWar
  376. @Erebus

    China demanded, and got access to the American automotive parts market and started accumulating UST paper by the boxcar load.

    She has gotten more than that, she obtained the access to the American consumer market which was and still remains the main commodity of American economy, with manufacturing being a very distant third, after the second–financial operations.

    their financial system was never quite “ready”… too “immature”, too fragile, the regulations hadn’t all been written, blah, blah, blah… to allow foreigners to participate.

    Classic American “elites” hubris and, as a consequence, loss of any situational awareness–a defining characteristic of the modern American state and “elites” who run it.

    Anyway, a decade and a half later they hold the Sword of Damocles over the USD and its Empire. They’ll let slip when the time suits them, but in the meantime will extract whatever concessions they can.

    That seems to be the trend, unless some major internal political rearrangement happens in the US, which is still not completely out of the realm of possibilities. If this happens in some form, the clash for Indian Ocean SLOCs will happen.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  377. @Anon

    SU had never been a modern peer of USN

    I understand that you are a disgruntled Chinese troll, and judging by your verbose hysterical diatribe, not a very confident one. But since other people read this thread, here is a good primer on how to view Soviet Navy in the words of the US Navy. Namely from US Naval War College in Newport, RI.

    https://usnwc2.usnwc.edu/Research—Gaming/War-Gaming/Documents/Publications/Newport-Papers.aspx

    and this:

    https://www.amazon.com/One-Hundred-Years-Sea-Power/dp/0804727945/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1516630188&sr=1-1&keywords=George+Baer+One+Hundred+Years

    Good start on educating oneself on serious geopolitical matters.

    • Replies: @Anon
  378. TT says:
    @Yee

    OBOR is too much uncertainty for Russia backyards that are mostly land locked and highly relied or controlled by Russia. Now these neighbors resources will flow out directly at better price, or become competitors, and goods more competitive are coming in replacing Russia’s. That’s bad news for Russia. A too strong China is a bigger threat than further away US to Russia, who have taken so much lands from China during Soviet time.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  379. TT says:
    @дулебг

    If China & Soviet had not split, communism will swept across entire Asia after US allied was defeated in Vietnam war, and expand unstoppable all the way to who know where. But somehow Mao decided to split with SU after Stalin’s death, when SU was helping to build up China industry including nuclear capability.

    Something went wrong, one China friend told probably Mao believed he should be next most senior communist leader after Stalin death, not Nikita, and SU likely post a larger threat to Mao leadership than US? Or British really did that? We are reading what others told us, who know which is fake or truth.

    That split had change the entire world history and fate. Otherwise SU including China as part of it will become sole hyper power, for good or bad no one know.

  380. denk says:
    @denk

    HK, a major base for CIA/MI6 op to destabilise China,

    Brit disinfo on TAM planted in HK newspaper,

    Mathews traces much of the problem to a Hong Kong newspaper that immediately, after the 1989 disturbance, ran a long story under the name of an alleged student protester. He claimed he was at the square when troops arrived with machine guns to mow down students in the hundreds.

    Distributed around the globe, the article was seen as final proof that the original BBC and other massacre reports were accurate. But the alleged author of that report was never located, and for good reason: The article was almost certainly planted — one of the many black information operations organized by British intelligence over the years.

    MI6 disinfo to frame ethnic Chinese in Indonesia, in the 1965 genocide, also
    originated from HK,

    ‘The army’s anxiety was increased by rumors, throughout 1965, that mainland China was smuggling arms to the PKI for an imminent revolt. Two weeks before Gestapu, a story to this effect also appeared in a Malaysian newspaper, citing Bangkok sources which relied in turn on Hong Kong sources.106 Such international untraceability is the stylistic hallmark of stories emanating in this period from what CIA insiders called their “mighty Wurlitzer,” the world-wide network of press “assets” through which the CIA, or sister agencies such as Britain’s MI-6, could plant unattributable disinformation.’

    http://www.namebase.net/scott.html

  381. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I also share such similar concerns for long time, that those Chinese could survive cultural revolution either are very tough like Deng XP & Xi JP, or some devil who will do anything to survive by accusing own parents if not been tortured to some psychopath. And those red CR armies are at late middle age now. These group are now forming the ruling class of China, rather scary.

    We are fortunate so far China leaders are all very sane till now after Deng XP, much more than the West. Their leadership selection system seems to be working, at least corruption has not reach the President level like the West to endanger the world.

    And the communist era that destroyed much of Confucianism, coupled with break neck development uplifting millions of poor rural peasants has produced many uncivilized Chinese that have shocking behavior which some already debating here.

    But there are also many China Chinese i know who are very highly cultured and intelligent, very eloquent. Some are farmers turn millionaires, they are rough but have very impressive intelligence & capability.

    China is such vast country with 1.4B people going through unprecedented dynamic changes, we gonna find all kind of people. But its not good to stereotype all China Chinese are rude & uncivilized. In Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, I also find similar mix of Chinese, except they are exposed to universal social norm much earlier than China Chinese. And US certainly has its own share of good and disgraceful people.

  382. AaronB says:
    @utu

    Thanks for pointing that out, utu. I should point out that my admiration for the man is heavily qualified. I see now that I misspoke when I said he was “overall” allright.

    Russell was deeply problematic in many ways. His peculiar skepticism is actually dogmatic materialism, the dogmatic philosophy that has destroyed the West.

    True skepticism liberates the mind – it tells you not to think you know, when you dont. It’s the enemy of all dogmatism.

    Russel tells you to dogmatically assert the nonexistence of what you cannot verify through physical instruments and the methodology of science.

    Under the guise of skepticism, Russell sells you a metaphysical dogma, one that has destroyed us.

    So, he is a deeply problematic figure and heavily implicated in our modern malaise.

    His book on China was brilliant in singling out those aspects of its civilization that could serve as an antidote to Western unhappiness and excess, but he was ultimately incapable of integrating these insights into his thinking and continually succumbed to the Western belief that the Millenium could be ushered in through vigorous and focused action.

    Despite all this, Russell was no mere obtuse technocrat in the modern style and never quite lost contact with the mystical and emotional side of human life.

    Clearly in later life his worse tendencies predominated.

    So a qualified and measured admiration for a brilliant but problematic man who saw clearly many of our modern problems and their source while crafting a philosophy that contributed to them.

    • Replies: @utu
  383. Vidi says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    No. China was mightily struggling before Clinton.

    China’s economy was growing 6.4% a year under Mao, consistently, whereas a 3% increase was considered a very good year for the U.S. China would have caught up economically.

    Compass, paper and gunpowder is very simple things…

    China’s four Great Inventions totally changed the world. That is not my opinion; Francis Bacon, one of the first Western scientists, said:

    Printing, gunpowder and the compass: These three have changed the whole face and state of things throughout the world; the first in literature, the second in warfare, the third in navigation; whence have followed innumerable changes, in so much that no empire, no sect, no star seems to have exerted greater power and influence in human affairs than these mechanical discoveries.” — Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620)

    If the inventions were so simple, why did they have such profound effect on the West? And why didn’t the West invent them first?

    Not exactly technologies and science of later times.

    The hydrogen bomb isn’t enough for you? The Soviets gave China some help on the atomic bomb, and then withdrew long before the project was done, predicting that China would not be competent enough to finish it. China finished it. The subsequent far more powerful H-bomb was totally China’s work.

    My point about the Opium Wars is that in the 50 years after the first of these wars, China was able to develop something (the cannon) that the West needed centuries to develop. And then the combined strength of the West — including America, France, and Britain — was barely enough to win the second war.

    As a common saying goes, just knowing something is possible is half the battle. So even without the U.S. technology transfers — at extortionate prices, I might add — I’m confident that China would eventually have caught up to the U.S. — in everything. So in selling China much technology, the U.S. was only hastening the inevitable.

  384. TT says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Regarding Tiananmen massacre, you should try to find and watch the documentary show make by History channel on this. I was quite shocked to view this documentary accidentally 10yrs ago after many years of believing such massacre propaganda that my government had allowed.

    In the show, the student leader that China President Li Peng met to understand their requests was a pure hooligan. And many rioters are not students but hooligans from outside cities. There wasn’t any mass shooting or tanks going over peaceful students to mince their body as published all over msm newspapers with colourful photo in my country.

    Its probably a color revolution instigated by US/UK, with fake news to demonize China and to impose sanction on China. Same for Ukraine, Libya, Syria and now Iran.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  385. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    But China would likely have caught up anyway, with or without U.S. help, because technology spreads rapidly.

    Making refrigerators and TVs? Sure. Dual use and purely military ones–good luck “spreading” them

    And hydrogen bombs, and (recently) the world’s fastest supercomputers, and the world’s first (and only) quantum satellite.

  386. @Andrei Martyanov

    “Making refrigerators and TVs? Sure. …”

    Sure. http://en.yibada.com/articles/129358/20160606/haier-haier-russian-plant-haier-refrigerator-plant-haier-refrigerators.htm

    China’s Haier Invests $55 Million in Russian Refrigerator Plant …Aside from the refrigerator factory, Haier has also begun setting up a TV assembly unit and an R&D center in Russia.

    Need a job other than trash-talking, Andrei? Panda may introduce one to you, for free, if you ask nicely. :)

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  387. Vidi says:
    @TT

    OBOR is too much uncertainty for Russia backyards that are mostly land locked and highly relied or controlled by Russia. Now these neighbors resources will flow out directly at better price, or become competitors, and goods more competitive are coming in replacing Russia’s. That’s bad news for Russia. A too strong China is a bigger threat than further away US to Russia, who have taken so much lands from China during Soviet time.

    Actually, OBOR will be great for Russia. China’s internal market is vast already, and will be vaster. Russia will have the best access to that rapidly growing market. My expectation is that Putin’s legacy will be a country several times richer than it is now.

    • Replies: @TT
  388. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Just spontaneous reaction to your articles that I felt is biased, but that isn’t a valid excuse for any attack you had rightly pointed out. So my sincere apology. When someone write bluntly against you, you counter offer how I can start seriously educate myself, that’s a right compose reaction deserving respect. I am also a Russia troll if you know. Sometimes I switch sides. LOL. That US Navy war game link page can’t be opened, permission denied. Thanks anyway.

  389. TT says:
    @Vidi

    No leader like uncertainty especially at its backyard. Russia strategy appears to be self sufficient? Global trading carry risk of external influence like sanction. But China market is safe since Russia is its main energy export partner. EU couldn’t cut off Russia gas no matter how they scream about sanction.

  390. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @CanSpeccy

    If a dog is run over by an automobile and seriously hurt, nine out of ten passers-by will stop to laugh at the poor brute’s howls. The spectacle of suffering does not of itself rouse any sympathetic pain in the average Chinaman; in fact, he seems to find it mildly agreeable.

    I’ve always found East Asian cultural views on dogs rather interesting. In Japan, for instance, there was a sharp contrast between the culture of the Jomon inhabitants and that of the Yayoi period immigrants from mainland Asia.

    Such evidence suggests that in the Yayoi period a new type of dog came to Japan, along with the new wave of people from the continent. The care and devotion accorded to the burial of dogs in Jomon is no longer evident in sites dating from the Yayoi period (2300–1700 B.P.). Most dog skeletons are partial and the bone are scattered; the remains show cuts and seem to have had the flesh torn off. This suggests that in the Yayoi period dogs were eaten as food, and this habit would have been unthinkable among the Jomon.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4338834/

    https://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/ways-of-the-jomon-world-2/akita-dog-one-of-the-earliest-breeds-to-be-domesticated/the-origin-of-dog-domestication-and-dog-breeds-of-japan/

  391. History teaches there is nothing inevitable. China got a lot of help from USSR not only with atomic bomb. The whole generation of Chinese engineers and scientists studied in the Soviet Union. However until USA transferred all those technologies and factories China was not doing the way you predict.
    Without transfer of Western technologies, manufacturing capacity, Soviet help and free access to Western markets China would have been a shadow of what it is now. A bit better than before but long way to go if ever. You should not also forget that Romans invented concrete, soap and so forth so on and Greeks invented even more so especially in math science fields and I am not aware of anything math related coming from China on the same level. So, safe Dark Ages, China always was lagging.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  392. utu says:
    @AaronB

    Something good in China:

    China cracks down on hip-hop and ‘artists with tattoos’ after popular rapper was pulled from reality TV show

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5296551/Bad-rap-Chinese-fans-fear-crackdown-hip-

  393. @PandaAtWar

    Need a job other than trash-talking

    So, if your argumentation reaches this “level” than I would expect you to explain billions of dollars in hardware China buys from Russia.

    http://tass.com/defense/932131

    I am not being facetious, I really am interested. I also cannot find a rational (of course, I can and actually I know some details;-)) explanation of:

    1. Why COMAC C919 hailed as super-pooper aircraft conducted only 3 test flights in 8 months, just for comparison–MC-21 in 7 months concluded 33 flights and is going into production in 2018. Is this a reasonable question?
    2. Please explain, why China went into the JV with Russia on CR-929? Hey, China, if to read some local commenters, and some Chinese media is about to land man on Mars and is about to surpass everyone in everything there is good and nice in this universe?

    Isn’t it reasonable to ask questions? Isn’t it reasonable to ask a question why today Chinese Military Attache in Moscow calls on Moscow “to together counter Washington’s pressure”. In Russian:

    https://ria.ru/world/20180122/1513063057.html?referrer_block=index_most_popular_1

    It is rather peculiar how asking very reasonable, nay highly warranted, questions creates such a reaction from some Chinese commenters. I will omit here in general anything related to weapon systems in depth.

    P.S. As per washing machines, even in Soviet times there were several major plants producing all kinds of appliances opened in Soviet Union, including those proverbial washing machines, such as Vyatka, which were of Italian origin. So, there are many Europeans who played a role in developing those technological cycles together with Russians. A normal international practice. Now, if you want to tell me that washing machines and modern Netcentric Warfare are things of comparable complexity, I will be really fascinated;-)

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  394. Vidi says:

    No leader like uncertainty especially at its backyard. Russia strategy appears to be self sufficient? Global trading carry risk of external influence like sanction. But China market is safe since Russia is its main energy export partner. EU couldn’t cut off Russia gas no matter how they scream about sanction.

    No intelligent leader would want more trouble on his borders, that is true. Anatoly Karlin’s recent kissing of the U.S. will not help Russia much, as an alliance with the AngloZionists will greatly multiply the border problems that Russia will have.

    Russia strategy appears to be self sufficient?

    That appears to be the case. Russia can do fairly well with a strategy of self-sufficiency. But with access to China’s huge and rapidly growing market, a self-sufficient Russia would do far better.

    • Replies: @TT
  395. Vidi says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    History teaches there is nothing inevitable.

    Nothing is inevitable, that is true, but some things are much more probable than others. China has changed the world once already with her Four Great Inventions, as I have noted. And I have already demonstrated that China was able to catch up rapidly in the past. With far more resources in the modern era, intellectually and economically, the probability is that China would be able to catch up to the U.S. even without technology transfer.

    China got a lot of help from USSR not only with atomic bomb. The whole generation of Chinese engineers and scientists studied in the Soviet Union.

    That is true. But Yang Chen Ning won the Nobel Prize in physics in 1957. China had deep intellectual resources even then, and would probably have developed the nuclear bomb eventually — with no Soviet help.

    However until USA transferred all those technologies and factories China was not doing the way you predict.
    Without transfer of Western technologies, manufacturing capacity, Soviet help and free access to Western markets China would have been a shadow of what it is now.

    Without help, China would probably be poorer that it is now, but still reasonably well off. Remember that the country was growing 6.4% a year in the ’50s and ’60s, far faster than the U.S. With the comprehensive education that China had even under Mao, eventually the country’s intellectual depth would start to tell.

    A bit better than before but long way to go if ever. You should not also forget that Romans invented concrete, soap and so forth so on and Greeks invented even more so especially in math science fields and I am not aware of anything math related coming from China on the same level. So, safe Dark Ages, China always was lagging.

    Perhaps a study of the many volumes in Science and Civilization in China by Joseph Needham will fix your lack of knowledge about Chinese science and technology. By the way, when will Russia have the world’s fastest supercomputer?

  396. @CanSpeccy

    If a dog is run over by an automobile and seriously hurt, nine out of ten passers-by will stop to laugh at the poor brute’s howls. The spectacle of suffering does not of itself rouse any sympathetic pain in the average Chinaman; in fact, he seems to find it mildly agreeable.

    What a stupid idiotic thing to say!

    Chinamen will stop and fight about who will take the dog home for supper.

    You are such an idiot!

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  397. TT says:
    @Vidi

    It would be interesting to see Russian rolling out some quality product using China huge market as launch pad. Beside helping economy, its also a global soft power.

    The only product i last saw was the Lada car 20yrs ago selling in Singapore, which was really bad.

  398. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @TT

    TT, you sound like Dank. You know what happened at Tianenman Square on June 4, 1989, or at least you claim to know what didn’t happen at Tianenman Square on June 4, 1989.

    And what is your claim based on?

    Um, a History Channel Documentary, which shocked you. LOL

    You weren’t there, and if you had been there, you would have seen very little in the crush and panic.

    All you know is what you have read, or been told, or have seen on TV, or imagine you have read, or been told, or have seen on TV.

    That is true for just about everyone. And the reports diverge widely.

    The British Ambassador reported in a recently declassified cable to the Foreign Office that ten thousand had been killed (you can find that reported by the BBC, the Telegraph and other sources).

    Recently declassified US documents reported a thousand killed.

    CNN reported that:

    Soldiers from outside Beijing called to the Chinese capital to boost troop numbers “were laughing” as they shot randomly at protesters in Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989, according to declassified U.S. documents.

    The Los Angeles Times, which Denk told me the other day is an “impeccable source,” estimated that “at least 100 were killed and 400 were hurt.

    The Independent reported that early on the morning of 4 June, the Chinese Red Cross estimated that 2,700 people had been killed.

    Recently released US National Security Agency documents report that:

    The Secretary of State’s intelligence summary for the following morning (Document 13) reports that “deaths from the military assault on Tiananmen Square range from 180 to 500; thousands more have been injured.”

    So what’s the truth. I don’t know. Neither do your, nor does Dank.

    If you wanted to form a useful opinion, you’d have to look at the circumstances. That Li Peng, the Chinese Premier, imposed martial law days before the Tiananmen “event” is clearly relevant. You would also need to take account of Paramount Leader Deng Xiaoping’s call for a hard line. Did he not say that even a million deaths would have been justified as the price to saving the state?

    But instead of doing some useful work, you engage in Denk’s childish game of “”tis” “’tisn’t” “’tis” …

    • Replies: @denk
    , @DB Cooper
    , @TT
    , @TT
    , @TT
  399. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Chinamen will stop and fight about who will take the dog home for supper.

    Yes of course. In Russell’s day they would have been laughing in glee at the prospect of a square meal.

  400. Erebus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    She has gotten more than that, she obtained the access to the American consumer market which was and still remains the main commodity of American economy…

    Not really. China’s penetration of the US consumer market would be limited to low value added items like plastic toys and cups & plates. China wanted access to the American automotive parts sector so she could build the industrial infrastructure that would support not only an indigenous car industry but higher value added consumer goods.

    Cars are the pinnacle of the consumer goods market, placing high demands on almost all other types of industry, from metallurgy, to chemicals, to plastics and machine tools. Not to mention design/engineering, complex logistical systems and high level assembly of complex final products. If you can design & build a decent car profitably, almost all other categories of consumer goods are enhanced thereby.

    Indigenous Chinese cars, with very few exceptions, were crap even 5 years ago. Think of the Hyundai Pony of 1975. Today, they’re just 1 or 2 levels below international brands and catching up fast. In public transport vehicles such as city buses, they’re arguably ahead. In the all-electric city bus field, they’re almost alone. It’s simply stunning what is being done there.

    All other consumer product categories were enhanced thereby.

    Classic American “elites” hubris and, as a consequence, loss of any situational awareness…

    Yes. I think they were simply caught unaware of how fast China could move, and what the end-consequences were. They were also blinded by greed. China kept dangling that carrot of access to their financial system and the West’s financial oligarchy couldn’t take their eyes off it long enough to see that they (the donkey) had wandered up to their ass into a swamp.

  401. polskijoe says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Did some more reading… apparently his views were mixed on Stalin.

    During his final trip, Wells interviewed Joseph Stalin. He challenged the leader, informing him that many people “regard your simple class-war antagonism as nonsense.” But after being so shocked by the state of St. Petersburg and Moscow in 1920, Wells also admitted grudging respect for the improvement in living conditions he found under Stalin’s rule.

    (I have no clue how to write a word and link it to another website). This was from rbth website

    He disliked what he saw as a narrow orthodoxy and intransigence in Stalin. He did give him some praise (see your comment). Nevertheless he judged Stalin’s rule to be far too rigid, restrictive of independent thought, and blinkered to lead toward the Cosmopolis he hoped for.[29] In the course of his visit to the Soviet Union in 1934, he debated the merits of reformist socialism over Marxism-Leninism with Stalin.[30]

    And then Stalin did the Purges and other murdering.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  402. @Erebus

    Not really. China’s penetration of the US consumer market would be limited to low value added items like plastic toys and cups & plates.

    Yet, somehow we have to explain an overwhelming manifest dominance of Chinese-produced consumer electronics–accidentally a high value added segment–of the US market?

    Cars are the pinnacle of the consumer goods market, placing high demands on almost all other types of industry, from metallurgy, to chemicals, to plastics and machine tools. Not to mention design/engineering, complex logistical systems and high level assembly of complex final products.

    True, it is a trillion+ dollar industry, but aerospace is second. I hope we understand a huge difference in complexity (I will omit here tolerances and QA demands) between even a very good car and an aircraft?

    • Replies: @KA
    , @Erebus
  403. @Erebus

    China kept dangling that carrot of access to their financial system and the West’s financial oligarchy couldn’t take their eyes off it long enough to see that they (the donkey) had wandered up to their ass into a swamp.

    Sorry, forgot to respond to that–financial oligarchy and an army of the so called “economists” who service it, by definition has no grasp of modern manufacturing and technological “filling” of the process, despite allegedly learning all this BS of “technological cycles” and other crap in their madrasas. Very few of them, if any, ever worked in real manufacturing and have no clue on human-machine interactions, let alone technology which goes into those machines. They know accounting and how to “make money”, which is not how things really work.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  404. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Canspeccy,

    Do you know the concept of ‘hostile witness’, ‘independent witness’, ‘favorable witness’ ?

    As a example,
    If in a court case, the prosecutor brought in your neighbor who’s a long feud with you to testify against you, this neighbor would be deemed a ‘hostile witness’, his testimony questionable.

    Your wife or your best friend would be considered your ‘favorable witness’,
    If Im not wrong a wife would be disallowed to testify for his hubby.

    a passerby who happened to be at the scene would be deemed an ‘independent or impartial witness’ thus more credible.

    For China, FUKUS and its mouthpiece CNN, NYT, LAT, Guardian, Independent,,,,are definitely ‘hostile witness’

    Gregory Clark

    ‘The recent WikiLeaks release of cables from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing has helped finally to kill the myth of an alleged massacre in Beijing’s Tiananmen Square on the night of June 3-4, 1989.’

    a Reuters correspondent and a Spanish TV crew, have long insisted, and written, that they saw no sign of any alleged massacre.’

    Wikileaks sources from US embassy internal communications, which has absolutely no reason to cover up for CCP in the TAM case.

    The same goes for Reuter which is another fukus mouthpiece,
    and the Spanish TV crew who’s at the scene , Spanish media is definitely not pro CCP, its coverage of China often drew protest from Beijing.

    ‘The Los Angeles Times, which Denk told me the other day is an “impeccable source,” estimated that “at least 100 were killed and 400 were hurt. ‘

    LAT , NYT was impeccable source in the Fallujah case, cuz
    ‘Are you suggesting this murkkan presstitutes would fabricate war crimes stories to malign their master’
    [You didnt answer that question]

    BUt when these ‘hostile witness’ go against China, one should at the very take its statement with a pint a salt !

    In fact in this case their figure is closer to CCP’S own admission, whereas other Western sources claim casualties in the thousands.

    But murkkan embassy cables at the time , Spanish TV crew and a TW singer Hou De Jian who went to Beijing to lend solidarity to the students all testified no ‘massacre of unarmed students’ at TAM, so where did this casualties come from ?

    Gregory Clark

    ‘Recently the massacre believers have begun to tell us that while maybe the “massacre” did not occur in the square, it certainly did occur in the streets and alleys leading to the square. But here, too, the Embassy cables tell a very different story. Relevant details include:
    • Beijing sent in unarmed troops in its bid to clear the square of remaining students as the demonstrations wound down. When those troops were mocked and blocked by protesting crowds, Beijing hurriedly decided to send in armed troops, whose vehicles were also blocked.
    The vehicles were also fire-bombed with their crews incinerated inside. (Reuters has yet to release a photo of an incinerated soldier being strung up under an overhead bridge.)
    • Wild shooting then broke out, mainly from an out-of-control unit, which other units sought to restrain sometimes by force. Chaos reigned and casualties, on both sides, were heavy in the streets leading to the square.
    • There were also disturbances near the square entrance, after students attacked and killed a soldier trying to enter.
    • The remaining 3,000 students in the square left peacefully when requested by the troop commander early on the morning of June 4.’

    The casualties included many soldiers who’r attacked by agent provoteurs
    in the crowd and the rioters. sorry to disappoint, no unarmed students exept may be some who were hit by cross fire in the melee.

    Dont you think you should at least question that ‘TAM MASSACRE OF UNARMED STUDENTS’ narrative ?

    P.S.
    Do you believe the following ?

    Gadaffi troops ‘massacred unarmed protestors’ ,
    Assad ‘massacred unarmed protestors’.,
    ‘tens of thousands’ were massacred in Kosovo
    China attacked india in 1962
    CCP’s brutal crackdown on Tibetan protestors in 2008

    [hint] all have been debunked.

    [just for starters]

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @RadicalCenter
  405. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @polskijoe

    And then Stalin did the Purges and other murdering.

    Oh, I’m sure the Fabians didn’t care about the murdering. Listen to Bernard Shaw, a founding member of the Fabians, urging scientists to develop a painless lethal gas to be used in the murder of useless eaters.

    There’s an interesting account here of the close connection between liberal globalists, Fabians like Bertrand Russell and H.G. Wells, the Communists, the bankers, and Bilderbergers, which sums up by saying:

    the identity of the objectives of the Fabian Society represented by the Socialist International and parties like Labour (i.e., in the UK), on one hand, and the objectives of international financial interests represented by the UN and Bilderberg, on the other hand, becomes indisputable.

    To turn text into a hyperlink, you do this:

    *a href-””>#####*/A>

    where the asterisks are opening angle brackets, and the ##### is whatever you like, for example, “go here to read about such and such.” I cannot put in the opening angle brackets, otherwise the blog software will turn my text string into a hyperlink, concealing the code.

    • Replies: @utu
  406. KA says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    what is the barrier or are the barriers to successful civilian aerospace industries? Is it the engineering ? Is it the material? Is it copyright? Can you spend some time explaining please ?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  407. Erebus says:

    Yet, somehow we have to explain an overwhelming manifest dominance of Chinese-produced consumer electronics…

    Almost all of it is still simply assembly of foreign components and/or sourced from foreign invested factories. The Foxconns (TW), Flextronics (SG) and Jabils (US) who do much of the final assembly are often foreign owned as well.

    My point is that China’s indigenous consumer electronics supply chain is quite short compared to its automotive industry, so not nearly as “high value added” for China itself. China is, of course working on that, but they ain’t there yet.

  408. DB Cooper says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Regarding what happened in Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989 I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that what is reported in the MSM is nonsense. I followed the event leading up to June 4 since April of 1989 way before it evolved into a major crisis.

    Here is what I am sure are the facts:

    1) No causalities in Tiananmen Square
    2) Causalities were the major artery leading to the city. That is, Changan Avenue.
    3) Initially the troops sent in were unarmed. Somehow somebody in the crowd threw Molotov cocktails to the troops, killing many unarmed PLA soldiers trapped in armor personnel carriers.
    4) This leads the authority called in armed troops to quell the uprising which leads to many deaths.

    In short the narrative that the government sent in troops to kill peaceful protesters are just nonsense. The protesters were peaceful for months until the late night of June 3rd when at least one person in the crowd threw Molotov cocktails and firebombed the unarmed troops. In response the government sent in armed troops.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  409. Erebus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    They know accounting and how to “make money”, which is not how things really work.

    I could fill a large sized volume with stories about that very point. It’s a phenomena endemic to the entire American elite in many fields. Not least, as you’ve said, in the military who’ve been measuring success using “body counts” since McNamara introduced so-called accounting principles to the Vietnam war.
    An old mentor of mine said to me long ago: “Having an accountant as a business advisor is like having a coroner for a doctor. He can only tell you what numbers killed you.” It took me too long to let that sink in.

    PS: If you’re interested in how accountants and economistas succeeded in bamboozling themselves regarding the collapse of American manufacturing, have a quick look at my discussion with Astuteobserver II starting here:

    http://www.unz.com/article/how-can-western-capitalism-beat-this/#comment-2062865

    I suggest paying particular attention to #319. The “Big Lie” is embedded in the Fed’s own statistics.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  410. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @DB Cooper

    Regarding what happened in Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989 I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that what is reported in the MSM is nonsense.

    Well that’s just great. Next time I need to convince you or anyone else of anything, all I need do is say

    I can tell you with a high degree of certainty

    and

    what is reported in the MSM is nonsense.

    Trouble is, even if correct, no one will believe me because I provide no references or other kind of evidence. Can’t you see that? And if so, can’t you see the futility of saying what you just said?

  411. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Taking Tea With Stalin by Ronald Harwood

    Harwood presented the fascination of European intellectuals with Soviet Union. George Bernard Shaw with Nancy Astor and Waldorf Astor visit Stalin in Moscow.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  412. @Andrei Martyanov

    But don’t get Panda wrong, my man. Panda has never overestimated your raw charm of intellectual inferiority complex (along with that of your Sergey, Utu, and Canspeccy pals here). Indeed you’re all quite entertaining to say the least. :)

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  413. TT says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Canspeccy, you don’t sound like Denk because he is factual. You know what happened at Tianenman Square on June 4, 1989, or at least you claim to know what didn’t happen at Tianenman Square on June 4, 1989.

    And what is your claim based on?

    Um, because the sentences in boldface in the excerpt remind one of reports that the Chinese troops who gunned down protesters during the Tiananmen Square demonstration laughed about the carnage. Your fond memory. LOL

    You weren’t there, and if you had been there, you would have seen very little in the crush and panic.

    All you know is what you have read, or been told, or have seen on TV, or imagine you have read, or been told, or have seen on TV.

    That is true for just about everyone. And the reports diverge widely.

    All about Western pressitute reportings are your basis, Denk has answered you. Look at who is behind and benefit from these reports you can judge which is more reliable.

    If I do read Western presstitute like BBC, CNN, Telegraph, LA Times, Wapo, Guardians, The Independent,… all US pathogenic liars NSA/CIA/Secretary of States, my own country msm..is to see what is the lies of the day, then I check out some other independent sites….even RT & Globaltimes give more neutral news.

    “If you wanted to form a useful opinion, you’d have to look at the circumstances. That Li Peng, the Chinese Premier, imposed martial law days before the Tiananmen “event” is clearly relevant.”

    Is this your basis of claiming a mass shooting killing? Any responsible government leaders should do so during unrest time. But I am not fan of Li Peng.

    “You would also need to take account of Paramount Leader Deng Xiaoping’s call for a hard line. Did he not say that even a million deaths would have been justified as the price to saving the state?”

    Fyi, the most respectable Asian leader that US Kissinger with many US Prez keenly sought his great advices, first PM of Singapore, Mr Lee Kuan Yew, in his memoir too declared, if it was him, he will make the same decision of Mr Deng XP as a responsible leader. Its better to sacrifice a few thousands of unrest students to save millions of innocent lives, as many cities were then engulfed in unrest, any uncontrollable outbreak will cost more innocent lives.

    “But instead of doing some useful work, you engage in Denk’s childish game of “”tis” “’tis””

    Thank you for the compliment, I think Denk is much more intelligent for my comparison. May be his level is beyond your ability to comprehend. You are regurgitating your msm sewage without bother to reflect on others alternative views. We are NOT CHINA people to gain anything from any argument, only share our source of info & views. Wapo, CNN, BBC…is what you need, not UNZ.

  414. TT says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Now I will explain why Im shock by the History channel TAM documentary. Why its a more reliable basis than Canspeccy trusted presstitute.

    In 4Jun 1989, still no internet or altnews access yet. Our main newspp were splashing full pages for many days about TAM gruesome massacre, echoing West controlled msm leaving deep shock to us with vivid memory till now.

    It was reported that PLA had plotted & suddenly blocked off all exits to no escape, rounded up thousands of peaceful sit-in students in TAM to gun them down mercilessly. Tanks are rolling over sitting students still alive to grind them into minced meat. Then helicopters fly in to carry away these packed minced meats. Soldiers washed up TAM square to destroy all evidences. By 6am, the square is clean, no blood, no evidence, but many thousands disappeared.

    There are many different version of stories surfacing later. But China demonized is done globally. US, UK with its lackeys quickly condemned & embargo China on trade & military till this day.

    20 years later, a History Channel revealed TAM myths. There is no massacre as Western gov and msm insisted till this day. Im shock how these open video & info was able to be hidden from us for so long, with shameless FUSUK leaders blatantly lying to achieve their motives, how supposed most trustable western msm like Reuters, AFP… are nothing but propaganda tool. And how my country msm become their mouthpiece to brainwash us.

    So Canspeccy grew up with these msm sewage, happily regurgitate everywhere and will not tolerate any alt views.

    In that docu, it showed Primer Li Peng met up with the student leaders. Their chief rep, Wu’er Kaixi, with his one leg shaking on top another, pointed his finger on Premier Li Peng, spoken something like:”你是谁,你算什么…?” literally means “Who are you, what you counted for..?”. That hooligan started and ended the meeting this way with a Premier. This is not a peaceful student seeking to resolve their requests, but a obvious unrest instigator bent to subservient a country that no leaders can ever tolerate.

    There are interviews with independent witnesses which largely in line with wikipedia, soldiers move in to clear TAM at final notice after impasse, some riots outside the square, but no massacre. Many rioters killed and burnt many innocent guarding soldiers alive in their carriers…

    Students sympathizers told they were supportive at beginning but withdrawn after finding they have gone overboard, requesting leaders incl Deng XP to step down, hooligans and workers from elsewhere started coming in. Student leaders had lost controlled over protestors. Hundreds of cities had started unrest, leading to China leaders decision to clear the square by army.

    Now who is History, why its a more reliable basis than presstitute? Google:
    History is an American digital cable and satellite television network that is owned by A&E Networks, a joint venture between the Hearst Corporation and the Disney–ABC Television Group division of the Walt Disney Company.

    Disney ABC TV group aren’t paid Chinese agents. These Americans have no goodwill to cover for China.

    Some abstract of TAM from Wikipedia:
    The national press, then still relatively free to cover ongoing events without propagating the party line, aired the talks between Premier Li Peng and student leaders on the evening of 18 May. During the talks Wu’er Kaixi, Wang Dan, and others openly accused the government for being too slow to react and rebuked Li Peng personally for lacking the “sincerity to conduct real discussions”. The discussion did not yield much results, but gained student leaders prominent airtime on China’s national television.[18] Li Peng and other leaders, however, maintained the government was only trying to “maintain order”, but alluded to the students actions as “patriotic”.

    [MORE]

    The news was spread quickly across the land. According to Chinese news media’s report, students and workers in over 400 cities, including cities in Inner Mongolia, also organized and started to protest.[21] People also traveled to the capital to join the protest in the Square.

    In Hong Kong, on 27 May 1989, over 300,000 people gathered at Happy Valley Racecourse for a gathering called “Democratic songs dedicated for China.” Many Hong Kong celebrities sang songs and expressed their support for the students in Beijing. The following day, a procession of 1.5 million people, one fourth of Hong Kong’s population, led by Martin Lee, Szeto Wah and other organization leaders, paraded through Hong Kong Island. Across the world, especially where Chinese lived, people gathered and protested.

    Although the government declared martial law on 20 May, the military’s entry into Beijing was blocked by throngs of protesters, and the army was eventually ordered to withdraw, which it did on 24 May.

    In a press conference, US President George H. W. Bush announced sanctions on the People’s Republic of China, following calls to action from members of Congress such as US Senator Jesse Helms. The President suggested intelligence he had received indicated some disunity in China’s military ranks, and even the possibility of clashes within the military during those days.

    Protesters threw Molotov cocktails and burned vehicles. At about 10:30 pm, near the Muxidi apartment buildings (home to high-level Party officials and their families), protesters threw rocks and Molotov cocktails at police and army vehicles. As can be seen in numerous photographs many vehicles were set on fire in the streets all around Tiananmen some with their occupants still inside them. There were reports of soldiers being burned alive in their armoured personnel carriers while others were beaten to death. Then the soldiers started firing live ammunition at some of the protesters. Some people in nearby apartment blocks were hit.[24]

    The battle raged in the streets surrounding the Square, with protesters repeatedly advancing toward the PLA and constructing barricades with vehicles, while the PLA attempted to clear the streets using tear gas, rifles, and tanks.

    At about 1:00 am, the army finally reached Tiananmen Square and waited for orders from the government. The soldiers had been told not to open fire, but they had also been told that they must clear the square by 6:00 am – with no exceptions or delays. They made a final offer of amnesty if the few thousand remaining students would leave. About 4:00 am, student leaders put the matter to a vote: Leave the square, or stay and face the consequences.[25]
    APCs (Armoured Personnel Carriers) rolled on up the roads, firing ahead and off to the sides, perhaps killing or wounding their own soldiers in the process. BBC reporter Kate Adie spoke of “indiscriminate fire” within the square. Eyewitness reporter Charlie Cole also saw Chinese soldiers firing Type 56 assault rifles into the crowd near an APC which had just been torched and its crew killed; many were killed and wounded that night.

    Around 4 or 5 am the following morning, 4 June, Cole reports to have seen tanks smashing into the square, crushing vehicles and people with their treads.[26] By 5:40 am 4 June, the Square had been cleared.
    BBC 2 June 2009[27] James Miles, who was the BBC’s Beijing correspondent at the time, stated:
    I and others conveyed the wrong impression. There was no massacre on Tiananmen Square… Protesters who were still in the square when the army reached it were allowed to leave after negotiations with martial law troops (Only a handful of journalists were on hand to witness this moment [...]). [...] There was no Tiananmen Square massacre, but there was a Beijing massacre.
    Sinomania maintain that there was a Spanish film crew in the square which filmed the last 5000 students leaving the square just before dawn on 4 June after negotiating safe passage with the military.[28] Richard Roth of CBS reported that he and a colleague were on the south portico of the Great Hall of the People (which forms one of the borders of the Square) led by Richard Roth. In the words of eyewitness CBS news correspondent Richard Roth:[29]
    Derek Williams and I were driven in a pair of army jeeps right through the square, almost along its full length, and into the Forbidden City. Dawn was just breaking. There were hundreds of troops in the square … But we saw no bodies, injured people, ambulances or medical personnel—in short, nothing to even suggest, let alone prove, that a “massacre” had recently occurred in that place… some have found it uncomfortable that all this conforms with what the Chinese government has always claimed, perhaps with a bit of sophistry: that there was no “massacre in Tiananmen Square.” But there’s no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing. Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  415. TT says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Now, who is the chief benefitors of this TAM Massacre lies? Who is most motivated to instigate this color revolution, with such enormous resources, diplomatic coverage protection to operate globally? Who took lead and insisted to trade and military embargo China till this day? Guess?

    6Mil dollars qn, most suspicious is……………: FUSUK. Margaret Thatcher was dreaming of keeping HK perpetual when she bluntly demanded that from Deng XP, after humilating China with Opium war for a century. Deng replied it will took back including military option if need to. But US didn’t want to support another opium war, while declining UK unable to do itself. So HK was return reluctantly with sabotage.

    Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder publicly added his voice to that of former French President Jacques Chirac to have the embargo lifted. but FUSUK make it impossible. So these two statesmen who incidentally also strongly against Bush’s WMD Iraq war, got their pink slip.

    Wikipedia:

    [MORE]

    The PRC has been calling for a lifting of the ban for many years and has had a varying amount of support from members of the Council of the European Union. In early 2004, France spearheaded a movement within the EU to lift the ban. Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder publicly added his voice to that of former French President Jacques Chirac to have the embargo lifted.
    The arms embargo was discussed at a PRC-EU summit in the Netherlands between 7 and 9 December 2004. In the run-up to the summit, the PRC had attempted to increase pressure on the EU Council to lift the ban by warning that the ban could hurt PRC-EU relations. PRC Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Yesui had called the ban “outdated”, and he told reporters, “If the ban is maintained, bilateral relations will definitely be affected.” In the end, the EU Council did not lift the ban. EU spokeswoman Françoise le Bail said there were still concerns about the PRC’s commitment to human rights. But at the time, the EU did state a commitment to work towards lifting the ban.
    The PRC continued to press for the embargo to be lifted, and some member states began to drop their opposition. Jacques Chirac pledged to have the ban lifted by mid-2005. However, the Anti-Secession Law of the People’s Republic of China passing in March 2005 increased cross-strait tensions, damaging attempts to lift the ban, and several EU Council members changed their minds. Members of the U.S. Congress had also proposed restrictions on the transfer of military technology to the EU if they lifted the ban. Thus the EU Council failed to reach a consensus, and although France and Germany pushed to have the embargo lifted, the embargo was maintained.
    Britain took charge of the EU Presidency in July 2005, making the lifting of the embargo all but impossible for the duration of that period. Britain had always had some reservations on lifting the ban and wished to put it to the side, rather than sour EU-US relations further. Other issues such as the failure of the European Constitution and the ensuing disagreement over the European Budget and Common Agricultural Policy superseded the matter of the embargo in importance. Britain wanted to use its presidency to push for wholesale reform of the EU, so the lifting of the ban became even more unlikely. The election of José Manuel Barroso as European Commission President also made a lifting of the ban more difficult. At a meeting with Chinese leaders in mid-July 2005, he said that China’s poor record on human rights would slow any changes to the EU’s ban on arms sales to China.[128]
    Political will also changed in countries that had previously been more in favor of lifting the embargo. On 22 November 2005, Schröder, who supported lifting, lost the 2005 German federal election to Angela Merkel, who was strongly against lifting the ban; Outgoing French President Jacques Chirac was succeeded by Nicolas Sarkozy. As both were in favour of lifting the embargo, the French foreign policy on this matter remained unchanged.
    In addition, the European Parliament has consistently opposed the lifting of the arms embargo to the PRC. Though its agreement is not necessary for lifting the ban, many argue it reflects the will of the European people better as it is the only directly elected European body–the EU Council is appointed by member states. The European Parliament has repeatedly opposed any lifting of the arms embargo on the PRC:
    The resolution of 28 April 2005, on the Annual Report on Human Rights in the World 2004 and the EU’s policy on the matter,
    The resolution of 23 October 2003, on the annual report from the Council to the European Parliament on the main aspects and basic choices of CFSP, it insisted on a peaceful resolution of the Taiwan issue through dialogue across the Taiwan Straits and called on China to withdraw missiles in the coastal provinces adjacent to the Taiwan Straits, and
    The resolution on relations between the EU, China and Taiwan and security in the Far East of 7 July 2005. The EP has noted several times that the current human rights situation in China, with regards to fundamental civil, cultural and political freedoms does not meet even the international standards recognized by China.
    The arms embargo has limited China’s options from where it may seek military hardware. Among the sources that were sought included the former Soviet bloc that it had a strained relationship with as a result of the Sino-Soviet split. Other willing suppliers have previously included Israel and South Africa, but American pressure has restricted future co-operation.[129]

  416. @KA

    Is it the engineering ? Is it the material?

    This too. It is a combination of things which start, as strange as it may sound, from the public school and go into the both higher learning engineering institutions and research establishment–a precise place where a national aerospace and, in a larger sense-industrial, experience is summarized and analyzed, thus creating what is known a national, in our particular case, aerospace school. Apart from expertise add here massive arrays of information which designing, building, testing and using aircraft and missile technology produces. Scale matters a great deal too. Just to give you one example–by the end of WWII Red Air Force was the largest and most experienced tactical-operational air force in the world. Can you imagine what a treasure trove of combat, engineering and design experience was that? And so it goes, you need:

    1. Outstanding materials (a huge issue in itself), especially metallurgy and composites.
    2. Extremely high manufacturing culture–metrology, tolerances, uncertainties, and on, and on, and on.
    3. Extremely high level of general industrial development, which does have a cultural element to it;
    4. Brains, brains and again–Brains;
    5. Engines and systems–oh boy, this alone requires a separate thesis.

    So, in general–something like this. All of it immensely complex technologies and processes.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  417. @Erebus

    I suggest paying particular attention to #319. The “Big Lie” is embedded in the Fed’s own statistics.

    I remember this–excellent point you’ve made! Monetarism is a lunacy.

  418. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Will take a look at Harwood.

    Among the Fabian crowd, one has to give Bertrand Russell credit for not being a Commie, cf. Why I Am Not a Communist.

    In fact, Russell’s association with the Fabians was brief. According to Wikipedia “Bertrand Russell … resigned after he expressed his belief that the Society’s principle of entente (in this case, between countries allying themselves against Germany) could lead to war” which was astute, and proved to be correct.

    Today’s successors to the Fabians, the Bilderbergers, and Democrats, and all the other globalist trash have for years been working to create a new entente for war against Russia and China, which are the last barrier to their goal of global governance — a disaster in the making that will make the corruption and stupidity of the Obamas, Clintons, Blairs and Merkels of this world look truthful, intelligent, and altruistic even.

  419. @PandaAtWar

    Yes and no.
    But it certainly has a great camouflage value.

  420. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @denk

    What I find ridiculous about the remarks you address to me, Denk, is your assumption that I believe whatever the bullshit media, say.

    Then you tell me I should believe Wikileaks, although Julain Assange established a high degree of non-credibility at the outset of his public career by stating that those who question the MSM story on 9/11 “annoy me.”

    When you make so many false assumptions and insulting implications at the outset, what is to be gained from talking with you? Nothing, that I can see.

    • Replies: @denk
  421. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @TT

    TT, when you begin your comments with:

    Why its a more reliable basis than Canspeccy trusted presstitute.

    and:

    Now, who is the chief benefitors of this TAM Massacre lies?

    what is the purpose of pursuing the discussion with you? Your approach is as childish as that of D.B. Cooper, above, and in his case, one has to bear in mind that his comments may have been intended as irony.

    You believe that Li Peng, the Chinese Premier in 1989, under the direction of supreme leader Deng Xiaoping, did not order troops to clear Tiananmen Square with all necessary force on June 4th, 1989, as reported in the Western media, Wikipedia, etc., and as confirmed, so the Western media report, in secret cables from the UK Ambassador to China to the Foreign Office, and in various declassified NSA reports, and also various Chinese sources.

    OK. As I’ve said, no one here actually knows. How could they? So the challenge is, not to idiotically assert this or that, but to attempt to construct a logical argument for denying the generally accepted belief that the massacre, whether of a hundred or ten thousand occurred. And in doing so, you need to refute the validity of the photographic evidence, some of which can be seen in the Independent article I linked to above.

    So instead of insulting me with accusation of regurgitating sewage, etc. (typical of the Red Guards hate speech which incited many atrocities by Chinese against other Chinese during the cultural revolution) why not try developing a sensible argument.

    • Replies: @TT
  422. Corvinus says:
    @Jean de Peyrelongue

    “I was impressed by Putin’s statement concerning the fate of white European Christian Civilization; but it may be too late to save it.”

    Putin is a thug, the anthesis of Christian ideals. He promotes Christianity only to serve as a vehicle to ensure his domination in Russian politics and society.

    “The New World Order, they are selling, is calling for the destruction of the Christian Civilization: the family, the traditional values and the many cultures of the various European people. They are behind these great invasions that Europe, today, is subject to. They expect these invasions to have on Europe a similar effect to what happened to the Roman Empire.”

    Let us assume, for a moment, that the NWO is indeed engaging in these diabolical machinations. So, what are you physically doing to confront this situation? If there is such a dire plot against Christian civilization, how are you trying to save it? Please be specific.

    • Replies: @TT
    , @Daniel Chieh
  423. @Andrei Martyanov

    I used to consult with BAe labs in Sowerby. Production runs are never large. I was told more than once that Aerospace needs numbers of middle scale advanced manufacturers, nevertheless capable of making a profit. It was challenging to find all of them in the UK.

    I was also in Saratov as YAK 42 manufacturing died. Other things like 400 Hz electrical design skills died with it.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  424. TT says:
    @CanSpeccy

    You do have your point, but appearancely you didn’t want read my comments objectively. You rather presume how i should think.

    I started merely suggesting view a non China influenced History Channel make documentary as it carried contrast info from my country msm(echo of west). You proceed to qn me in all kinds of childish way, you there, you know…so i return your unwanted rubbish.

    You believe that Li Peng, the Chinese Premier in 1989, under the direction of supreme leader Deng Xiaoping, did not order troops to clear Tiananmen Square with all necessary force on June 4th, 1989, as reported in the Western media, Wikipedia, etc., and as confirmed, so the Western media report, in secret cables from the UK Ambassador to China to the Foreign Office, and in various declassified NSA reports, and also various Chinese sources.

    Since when has I ever mention such naive thoughts you harbour? They ordered in army, students in TAM Sq left. No massacre in sq as msm propaganda of gruesome tanks rolling minced meat. Story end. Casualties, yes, number differ.

    Do you understand what is “Massacre in SQ” vs “Casualties of rioters fighting soldiers entering SQ”? Btw, do you know Massacre mean?

    So you still believe US controlled UN/NGO/MSM sources, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine,…massacre of peaceful protestors justifying US humanity bombing to many orders of massacres, genocide is better word.

    validity of the photographic evidence, some of which can be seen in the Independent article I linked to above.

    How i know, you should ask them how they got it or Photoshop? Think of Syria war & Ukraine maidan blockblaster Horrifyingwood. Russian is excellent at exposing & counter propaganda war.

    Even independent sites are infiltrated with fake propaganda of West. Some are countries i lived in long time, so i have ground knowledge. When USUK msm repeatedly said something, think what’s their motive. If they kindly said no TAM massacre, its bloody sure. If they hyper said Yes with hysteria actions, then its more bloody doubtful.

    So instead of insulting me with accusation of regurgitating sewage, etc. (typical of the Red Guards hate speec

    Mirror reflection. You started first. Don’t be like Uncle Sam, only he can set fires everywhere but whining others light up a candle deserving his shock & awe.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @Ron Unz
  425. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @TT

    So you still believe US controlled UN/NGO/MSM sources, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine…

    That’s just a lie, TT. Or a delusion. Either way it is in no way justified by anything I have said here or anywhere else. Which is why it’s a waste of time talking with the purveyors of Chinese agitprop. You just make stuff up, or have such poor English comprehension that it is impossible to engage in a reasonable discussion with you.

    • Replies: @TT
  426. DB Cooper says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Here are some references. Note that I can personally attest to the authenticities of the pictures because those pictures seared into my memory when I first saw them on Taiwanese newspaper. Had I saved those newspaper clips those pictures (soldiers burnt to a crisp and prop up in front of burnt out vehicles and hang under an overpass) would be in the clips.

    These pictures were never show in the MSM although it were widely available in Taiwanese/Hong Kong media.

    https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2012/05/30/lets-talk-about-tiananmen-square-1989/

  427. DB Cooper says:
    @CanSpeccy

    On a side note there WAS a massacre in an Asian country when the troops gunned down hundreds of peaceful protesters demonstrating for democracy. Do you know which country?

  428. DB Cooper says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Here is one more reference, from somebody who was actually there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hou_Dejian

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  429. Ron Unz says:
    @TT

    Since when has I ever mention such naive thoughts you harbour? They ordered in army, students in TAM Sq left. No massacre in sq as msm propaganda of gruesome tanks rolling minced meat. Story end. Casualties, yes, number differ.

    Well, I happened to notice this divergent discussion thread about Tiananmen, and although I’m very busy with my software work, I thought I might as well provide my own perspective…

    For decades, I’d casually assumed that the “Tiananmen Square Massacre” had indeed happened just as the MSM described, but over the last few years I’ve become about 80% convinced that it was all just the hoax that several commenters here have suggested. Moreover, my careful subsequent reading of the NYT and other MSM outlets leads me to believe that most of the elite MSM has long since recognized that fact, but is simply much too embarrassed to admit it since it would make them look so totally ridiculous to their readers.

    Here’s a link to column I wrote a few years back briefly discussing some of this:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-liberal-bias/

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @DB Cooper
    , @TT
  430. TT says:
    @Corvinus

    Putin is a thug, the anthesis of Christian ideals. He promotes Christianity only to serve as a vehicle to ensure his domination in Russian politics and society.

    Putin is not a thug, he is patriotic creame of Russian crop, KGB psy-war trained realist. He knew too well how cooked up religion is used to control not only one’s subjects, but also nations with no boundaries. He had already built one Orthodox church in Paris not out of charity. Given enough resources & insufficient USUK resistance, he might spread them into Europe or better make a Russian Pope, also kind of countering Muslimism Weapon of Mass Migration?

    From communism to christianism. Just a more acceptable dominating tool. That also make up for what Russia lack to be real super power, huge population like US, EU, China, India.

    China switches from communism to Social-Capitalism, next is Confucianism. This model is better as its not tied to corrupted church leaders, but base on universal humanity value with virtues.

    Its imperfect immoral people that failed perfectionist communism.

    I prefer Putin & Xi JP to rule the world using Peaceful tools than psychopathic USUKI using Terrorism.

  431. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @DB Cooper

    You refer me to a wikipedia article about Hou Dejian. In that article it is stated that Hou Dejian is, or was, a popular singer who:

    urged Chinese people to uphold their “duty as responsible citizens” by sustaining a “peaceful democratization process.

    In other words, Hou incited those who challenged the Government’s authority, and was thus in part responsible for the government introducing martial law and using violence in ending the protests. Hou was thus, in part, responsible for that violence.

    The article confirms this, stating:

    Hou Dejian and the others troubled high-ranking officials within the party, playing a definitive role in the government’s decision on June 3 to approve a violent crackdown

    The article continues:

    Amidst the chaos in the morning of June 4 …

    from which we can infer that there was indeed violence between the declaration of martial law on June 3 and the morning of June 4. Therefore, the question that seems to be at issue is not whether troops were used against the protesters, but whether the violence took place in Tiananmen Square itself, or elsewhere in Beijing.

    You say it took place elsewhere, which is consistent with the Wikipedia article on the “Tiananmen Square protests of 1989,” which states:

    The protests were forcibly suppressed after the government declared martial law. In what became known in the West as the Tiananmen Square Massacre, troops with automatic rifles and tanks killed at least several hundred demonstrators trying to block the military’s advance towards Tiananmen Square. The number of civilian deaths has been estimated variously from 180 to 10,454.

    The photographs to which you link, at least some of which I have seen elsewhere, clearly indicate that there was severe and deadly violence, in some cases at least, by the protesters against the troops. Therefore, we can safely assume that the troops responded with violence of their own and that the numbers that Wikipedia gives for the casualties among the protesters, i.e., between 180 to 10,454, are entirely plausible.

    The exact location of the killings, whether in Tiananmen Square, or on the approach to the Square, seems of no great moral or political significance.

  432. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    For decades, I’d casually assumed that the “Tiananmen Square Massacre” had indeed happened just as the MSM described

    LOL

    When was anything “just as the MSM described.”

    But as far as the “Tiananmen Square Massacre” is concerned, the chief error, if there was one, seems to have been over whether the violence occurred in the Square itself or on the approach to the square, an issue of rather trivial importance to most consumers of news in the West.

    What has not been refuted by anything stated in this discussion (if you can call it a discussion) is that the Chinese Government decided to crack down on the protests and did so, declaring martial law on June 3rd, bringing troops into the city the same night, precipitating a bloody clash that appears from photographs to have cost the lives of many soldiers, and which must surely have cost the lives of protesters too, as the troops responded to the attacks upon them.

    It may be noted also, that insofar as the media has access to inside information, it would most probably have been told by both British and US Government sources, themselves advised by the UK Ambassador in Beijng, and the NSA, that troops had killed protesters in the Square, not the approach to the Square. So if there is blame for an error in the reported location of the violence, that blame may well lie not with the media but with misleading information provided by government sources.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Vidi
  433. Erebus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Sorry, for reasons now unclear my reply to this post (@#418) is not addressed to you.

  434. TT says:
    @CanSpeccy

    That’s just a lie, TT. Or a delusion. Either way it is in no way justified by anything I have said here or anywhere else. Which is why it’s a waste of time talking with the purveyors of Chinese agitprop. You just make stuff up, or have such poor English comprehension that it is impossible to engage in a reasonable discussion with you.

    You are always shifting goal post quoting various things randomly ram into my throat. That’s not a lie nor delusion, its what you unwisely projected yourself during discussion, not just me alone got that. I know you are too sophisticated smart for msm lies, that’s why we come to read UNZ for alt views across broad spectrum of people in diff countries, not info that we can access better elsewhere.

    But you need to debate with clearer points.

    My country is infamous for anti communism pro capitalism suck up to West, anti China(foolish leaders), putting any politicians into indefinite jail without trial under communist mask. Not sure this constitute a larger scale of slow massacre many times of TAM that get zero msm coverage when so many really dissappeared.

    How can i become what you accused of, starting from childish to liar then now Chinese agitprop purveyor? I defended much for Myanmar Rohingya case, NK war, does that make me Burmese or Little Rocket stooge?

    Poor English…. yes I admit because it isn’t my mother tongue. But our gov force us to use naggy Shakespeare Cambridge English as first language since birth that we had forgotten all other languages. I have totally stop writing after retirement 15yrs ago, only picking up again recently because of UNZ got me so interested. Need much polishing, but not that poor yet. Let’s stop here as I enjoy your intelligence more than your hollow debating skill.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  435. @Corvinus

    Wow, this thread really does draw all of the trolls.

  436. DB Cooper says:
    @Ron Unz

    Here are some background information. The whole thing started out as an outpouring of grief of the untimely death of a beloved and disgraced Communist party secretary Hu YaoBang in April and gradually evolved into an organized demonstrations against widespread corruption of the Communist party members. In those days China’s economy has yet to take off and the country was still reeling from the aftermath of the Mao’s years. China was just opened up not so many years ago and many people in China were acutely aware of the wide gap between China and other developed economies. Hong Kong was much more advanced and developed than China in those days and everybody in China knows that. If ever there were a time when China was vulnerable to Jasmine revolution, it was those days. I am sure the leadership in those days were very sensitive to any sentiment that the Communist party has failed the Chinese people.

    Anyway the demonstration drags on for months and by the beginning of June the whole movement has basically petered out. Most of the squatters in the square has left with only a few diehards left behind. The government’s patience has clearly pay off. If things kept going that way the whole incidents would have been concluded peacefully in a few more weeks, probably by end of June the latest. The government would probably made some concessions but they would have avoid the worst case scenario, that is things turn ugly (violent) resulting in a violent crackdown. But this was precisely what has happened.

    So here is the context behind the Tiananmen incident and it is easy to see that it is simply not in the interest of the Chinese government to suddenly violently suppress the demonstrators when they already have the situation under controlled.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  437. DB Cooper says:
    @CanSpeccy

    “But as far as the “Tiananmen Square Massacre” is concerned, the chief error, if there was one, seems to have been over whether the violence occurred in the Square itself or on the approach to the square, an issue of rather trivial importance to most consumers of news in the West.”

    That was one error, but that was not the chief. The chief error is that unarmed troops were firebombed first unprovoked resulting in many killed. The government responded by calling in armed troops to violently suppress the mob resulting in many civilians killed also.

    This is one important point that the MSM omitted.

    Ironically there is one Asian country that has an incident that fits the MSM’s narrative. Guess which country?

  438. Ron Unz says:
    @DB Cooper

    Here are some background information. The whole thing started out as an outpouring of grief of the untimely death of a beloved and disgraced Communist party secretary Hu YaoBang in April…

    Sure, I knew all those issues very well at the time, and had been following China’s situation with interest for decades, certainly including the prior 1989 events. And I’d always been somewhat skeptical of the scale of the supposed “massacre” and had known perfectly well that the PRC government had been working very hard to defuse the situation non-violently.

    But given that I was living in the West in those pre-Internet days, I can’t really be too hard on myself for having afterward generally gone along with the MSM Narrative more than I should have.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @nebulafox
  439. utu says:
    @AaronB

    I’ll have to openly pursue my secret agenda of criticizing ego wherever I find it.

    Uncovering egos in others is a favorite ego trip for an ego.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  440. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    *What I find ridiculous about the remarks you address to me, Denk, is your assumption that I believe whatever the bullshit media, say.

    ref 409

    CNN reported that:

    [CNN, are you serious ?]

    The Los Angeles Times………

    The Independent…………

    [worse than guardian which at least published some of my comments]

    US National Security Agency documents report that:

    [hmm
    NSA the evil twin to CIA, the father of google.....
    enuff said]

    The British Ambassador reported in a recently declassified cable to the Foreign Office that ten thousand had been killed (you can find that reported by the BBC, the Telegraph and other sources).

    Now this one takes the cake !

    The Brit govn who, in cahoot with CIA, diseminate disinfo in 1965 and fabricated evidence to frame the Indon leftists and ethnic Chinese as ‘fifth columnists’ of Beijing, resulting in the greatest genocide of the century, stikes again !

    To recap,

    Those serial lying scumbags in Washingtoh/London first claimed
    ‘CCP brutal crackdown in TAM killed thousands of unarmed students’

    After whistleblower like Gregory Clark shot it down and later confirmed by WIKILEAKS , they shifted the goal post,
    altho there’s no one killed in TAM itself , thousands died in the surrounding alleys’

    FFW to 2018, THREE DECADES AFTER TAM, they throw a ‘bombshell’ [sic]
    ‘Hey the casualties were actually much higher, it ran into tens of thousands’ !

    Look,

    A witness , a known serial liar [Im talking about Washington/london in case you'r wondering], shifted his goal post twice and changed his story when the previous version was no longer credible.

    In any court of good standing the sob would be thrown out right away , or prolly charged with presenting false evidence to subvert the course of justice !

    *Then you tell me I should believe Wikileaks, although Julain Assange established a high degree of non-credibility at the outset of his public career by stating that those who question the MSM story on 9/11 “annoy me.”

    Read carefully,
    Wikileaks sources from US embassy internal communications, which has absolutely no reason to cover up for CCP in the TAM case.

    WIKILEAKS was just a conduit.

    Now whada ya know ,
    I was suspicious of WIKI right from the start !

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-is-behind-wikileaks-2/22389

    *When you make so many false assumptions and insulting implications at the outset, what is to be gained from talking with you? Nothing, that I can see.

    No you’r the one making false assumptions and Calling me names, maligning me a ‘Chinese propagandist, supremacist’.
    [Examples ??]

    BTW what do you mean by ‘denks childish game of ’tis’, ’tis’ , [424] Im still scratching my head over it ?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  441. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @TT

    Poor English…. yes I admit because it isn’t my mother tongue.

    Your English is vastly better than my command of any language other than English, and it is perfectly clear.

    My last comment failed to identify what you had said that I objected to. But I forget now what it was, and anyway you suggest a truce, which I readily agree to. Although, the issue under discussion is interesting. In particular, it would be interesting to know (though probably impossible to conclusively determine) whether Western agents had a role stirring the trouble in 1989.

    But our gov force us to use naggy Shakespeare Cambridge English as first language since birth that we had forgotten all other languages.

    It seems to be the fate of great empires, that after a day in the sun, all that remains is their language. That was true of Rome, and now appears increasingly likely to be the fate of the Anglo-US Empire. But China, empire or not, is unlikely to fade away.

    As for Shakespeare, his language is beyond the comprehension of almost every Englishman, so it is difficult to understand why it is taught abroad.

    I have totally stop writing after retirement 15yrs ago

    We must be about the same age — but like Confucius, we should keep writing and learning in old age.

  442. utu says:
    @Ron Unz

    And I’d always been somewhat skeptical of the scale of the supposed “massacre” and had known perfectly well that the PRC government had been working very hard to defuse the situation non-violently.

    Interesting. But here is The Independent,23 December 2017

    At least 10,000 people died in Tiananmen Square massacre, secret British cable from the time alleged

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/tiananmen-square-massacre-death-toll-secret-cable-british-ambassador-1989-alan-donald-a8126461.html

    The death toll from the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre was at least 10,000 people, killed by a Chinese army unit whose troops were likened to “primitives”, a secret British diplomatic cable alleged.

    The newly declassified document, written little more than 24 hours after the massacre, gives a much higher death toll than the most commonly used estimates which only go up to about 3,000.

    It also provides horrific detail of the massacre, alleging that wounded female students were bayoneted as they begged for their lives, human remains were “hosed down the drains”, and a mother was shot as she tried to go to the aid of her injured three-year-old daughter.

    Written on 5 June 1989 by Sir Alan Donald, the then-British ambassador to China, the hitherto secret cable has now been placed in the UK National Archives at Kew, where it was found by the news website HK01.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @denk
  443. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @denk

    You’re the one who started the name calling.

    You called me an arsehole. So naturally, after that, I assumed we were to be as rude as we pleased.

    And now you pitifully complain because I call you childish, dishonest and generally not worth talking to. Pathetic.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @denk
  444. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    The UK Ambassador’s report has been noted above, but many say it was false. Here for example, is a Columbia Journalism Review article by Washington Post journalist, Jay Matthews, which rejects the Ambassador’s report entirely.

    And here’s an argument for viewing the Tiananmen Square “Massacre” as a failed US color revolution.

    And it appears to be a fact that many of the student protest leaders ended up in America, despite the difficulty at the time for Chinese to obtain US visas, which is interesting.

    • Replies: @TT
  445. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    This guy’s (Bill P) comments are frequently very good. And here are several about China.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/extremist-open-border-lunacy-as-the-new-conventional-wisdom/#comment-2165820

    China is not a terrible place, mostly because ordinary Chinese are pretty good people, but it has a long way to go and a lot of catching up to do. Putting CCP officials in charge of Western societies would be a disaster, as they would ruin them in short order. The idea that we have anything to learn from Mainland China in terms of governance could only come about because our elites have engaged in a multi-decade ripoff of the American people with the PRC as their main accomplice; in order to hide the magnitude of their crime, our own elites have softened China’s image considerably. This way the truth about their irresponsibility in enriching what is turning out to be a hostile, authoritarian regime at the expense of the American working and middle class doesn’t look quite so bad.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/u-s-warned-jared-kushner-about-wendi-deng-murdoch/#comment-2162103

    Imagine if you went to another country as an American, say as a student, and you protested some US policy abroad. Like, suppose you’re in Bolivia and you join some protest march or get quoted opposing US anti-drug policies in S. America, and somebody reports you. In our world it would be no big deal, but if we were like the Chinese this would cause major problems for you and likely your family as well. That’s the stick. But there are carrots, too. Even simple Chinese merchants who run nothing more than a convenience store are smart enough to navigate these straightforward rules, which are designed to promote the interests of the PRC, but Americans, never having lived in a country like China, can’t even conceive of them.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
  446. denk says:

    You called me an arsehole.

    Where please ?

  447. denk says:
    @CanSpeccy

    You still havent enlightened me what do you mean by
    ‘denks childish games of ’tis’ ’tis’ ,

    just like you havent shown me any examples when I peddle
    “propaganda’ and ‘supremcism’

    Whats more,
    UNtil now you havent actually rebutted any of my points,

    And now you pitifully complain because I call you childish, dishonest and generally not worth talking to. Pathetic.

    Let the readers judge for themselves shall we ?

  448. TT says:
    @Ron Unz

    Thanks Ron for that link, its a good one even few years back. It could save me much time & mobile data to painstakingly feed info to Canspeccy if i know earlier.

    For a quarter-century, the official Chinese media has always claimed that the student protests had ended peacefully without any deaths and for a quarter century informed Americans have always ridiculed such ridiculous claims as proof that Chinese Communist propaganda remained as dishonest as ever. Certainly that was always my own opinion.

    Canspeccy is good example. Now he is dogmatically fighting his case with all, claiming we are commie.

    But what if the official Chinese media has been telling the truth for decades and it is the American media that has always been deceptive?

    Now it happen, msm trustworthiness is damaged like Bush, Colin Power & Blair’s blatant lies about Iraq WMD war. It has degraded so much that i gave up most msm i frequented. That probably is the over dose side effect, losing many readership hence its propaganda effect.

    But the grave damage to China is done. Many of us harbour very negative view of China till now. HK & Twn pp probably got scared like hell. Many HK pp left before 1997. Twn & HK gained many hardcore independent activists. I still remb been given a thick USGov booklet on what can’t be exported to China as sanction many years back, even outdated 386PC.

    It’s a sad situation when you begin to weigh the words of an anonymous Internet commenter almost as highly as you do the published accounts of the top journalists of the august New York Times.

    I weigh these journalist below liars nowsaday. Conscientious one if not self left, already get booted out for not writing fake news.

    There seem a concerted effort by US allies to roll out anti fake news law to further curtail independent websites across the world. Already my country msm and independent sites are tightly gov controlled, this new law may just block off access to alt news?

    Even independent sites like Globalresearch is infiltrated with fake propaganda. Eg. Many are posting in to smear Myanmar gov for Rohingya crisis make by USUKSaudi terrorists.

  449. @Philip Owen

    I was told more than once that Aerospace needs numbers of middle scale advanced manufacturers, nevertheless capable of making a profit. It was challenging to find all of them in the UK.

    That is why enclosed technological cycle in aerospace especially is so critical. Only the US, Russia and EU (as entity) have those cycles covering a whole spectrum of activity which goes into modern world-class military or civilian aircraft. It is an immense task–from having design and engineering school to metallurgy, to composite materials industry to electronics etc. As I said–engines are the whole other universe altogether. There is more to it–in all above-mentioned cases the State does play a huge role, no matter how all this role is misconstrued by all kind of BS so called “economic” publications.

    I was also in Saratov as YAK 42 manufacturing died. Other things like 400 Hz electrical design skills died with it.

    More than that dies once nation stops building aircraft. Aerospace requires an immense set of skills top-bottom of the labor force, majority of those skills are very complex since require adherence to very strict tolerances and quality standards. They are easily lost and are extremely difficult to regain, as Russia learned it the hard way by throwing her commercial aviation in 1990s as a bone to the Western beneficiaries. It took an immense effort to revitalize Russian aerospace sector, with some problems still lingering, albeit they are being addressed.

    • Replies: @A22
    , @Philip Owen
  450. A22 says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Since we are talking about the aerospace industry, one of the things that kept me wondering is why do Russia depend on foreign-made turbines for power generation. I was quite surprised when the whole Siemens scandal of Russia moving Siemens-made turbines to Crimea surfaced as I thought the Russian were already self-sufficient in this field since they make their own jet engines which I suppose are a great deal similar to power generation turbines. Honestly, even self-sufficiency for the domestic market, in my opinion, is not enough in this field since the know-how could constitute a great exporting potential that should be exploited.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  451. @A22

    Since we are talking about the aerospace industry, one of the things that kept me wondering is why do Russia depend on foreign-made turbines for power generation. I was quite surprised when the whole Siemens scandal of Russia moving Siemens-made turbines to Crimea surfaced as I thought the Russian were already self-sufficient in this field since they make their own jet engines which I suppose are a great deal similar to power generation turbines. Honestly, even self-sufficiency for the domestic market, in my opinion, is not enough in this field since the know-how could constitute a great exporting potential that should be exploited.

    Siemens turbines are of a very high power specifically for industrial civilian power generation. Also do not forget Russia’s reliance on Ukrainian-made turbines for surface ships–a mistake which was finally corrected with Saturn getting ready for production of substitutes. Siemens case is different, especially against the background of Siemens’ JV with Russians specifically for this type of turbines and very high localization (that is made in Russia) of this JV product. In essence, the whole snafu (or FUBAR) with Siemens, now completely resolved, let alone real FUBAR with MTU or Ukraine–all were the “rich” heritage of the Yeltsin and his “reformers” atrocity of 1990s when whole industries in Russia, especially in machine-building complex, were deliberately bankrupted in order to clear the road for foreign companies. Here is the result of learning from the mistakes: 110M, the work on which was “shut” during…. Medvedev’s “reign”. Today it is in the final stages of its trials and will hit series production this year. USSR/ Russia always had a very strong turbine industry when it wasn’t sabotaged.

  452. denk says:
    @utu

    in order to hide the magnitude of their crime, our own elites have softened China’s image considerably.

    Lets see,

    FUKUS….

    Instigated the 1962 indo/sino war, then maligned China as the aggressor.

    Orchestrated the 1989 color revolution and perpetrated the ‘TAM massacre’ demonisation campaign until this day.

    Engineered the 2008 Tibet and 2009 Xinjiang pogroms on the Hans,
    then turned the facts over its head , demonised the CCP for ‘brutal crackdown on unarmed protestors’
    [ala TAM, Libya, Syria, Kosovo, Myanmar, ........]

    Sabotaged the China/Asean dialogue on the SCS, scuttle the jp/China reconcilation process, plodded these countries to confront China, then branded Beijing a ‘bully’.

    Fomented color revolutions in HK, then slandered China’s suppression as
    ‘oppressing democratic movement’

    Tip of an iceberg !

    So this is how fukus ‘soften‘ China’s image ?

    As comparison,

    India has committed genocides on practically all her minorities,
    the Muslims, Sikhs, Dalits, Nagas, Manipuris, Assamis, ….you name it,
    without a peep from fukus.

    For example, while China was punished with sanction/embargo for TAM
    until this very day,
    India the serial genocidist was rewarded with economic/military/technical collaboration. !

    In fact, not only is India given a free hand in its genocidal wars ,
    Delhi even get a helping hand from Washington via arms sales/military intelligence sharing/joint ops !

    You might call it professional courtesy from a fellow serial genocidist !

    But China is the one ‘getting kid gloved treatment’ ???

    Thank you for the head up for this satire from Bill P,
    May I have some of what you’r smoking, Bill ?

    hehehehehe

  453. Vidi says:
    @CanSpeccy

    But as far as the “Tiananmen Square Massacre” is concerned, the chief error, if there was one, seems to have been over whether the violence occurred in the Square itself or on the approach to the square, an issue of rather trivial importance to most consumers of news in the West.

    Another question is whether the photograph of bloodstains under a tank was true. The total dishonesty of the Western media on Iraq, Libya, and Russia makes me think the photo was doctored.

  454. @Andrei Martyanov

    Yes. The 400 Hz example was meant as an illustration of the process in all components. The SJ100 uses many foreign components because it is better to have a end product to which components can be added later than to support components without local buyers (civilian planes & engines are very different from war planes).

    By the way, a Russian aerospace group bought the British share of Airbus (222%) at one time. Then Putin decided he needed useful enemies for the 2004 election. He picked the British, his biggest inward investors at the time. That was the end of Russian access to Airbus. (UK makes the wings, #1 piece of the airframe – engines too but that is another story). Russia did not have the capacity to join Airbus. For example, there was only one small carbon fibre plant in Balakovo. So the SJ100 with many foreign components became the strategy.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  455. After independence, the Dominion of India invaded 600 independent states the British left untouched. Many were tiny but some like Hyderabad, Mysore and Jammu and Kashmir were big. Compared with India or Indonesia, Post war Chinese expansionism has been modest.

  456. @Philip Owen

    Then Putin decided he needed useful enemies for the 2004 election.

    It had nothing to do with “useful” enemies–Great Britain was and remains on the forefront of anti-Russian rhetoric, sometimes insane, and actual policies for a long time. Plus, let’s be honest–having shares and having technology are two very different things. As the Opel plant experience showed–it is nothing more than some financial pose. Same “investment” could have been used much better in Russia and that is exactly how it happened.

    That was the end of Russian access to Airbus. (UK makes the wings, #1 piece of the airframe – engines too but that is another story). Russia did not have the capacity to join Airbus. For example, there was only one small carbon fibre plant in Balakovo

    Russia, however, had serious capacity to “join” Boeing–a rather equal “exchange”, not to mention that Airbus DID have contracts with Avisma (4 billion dollars) which, considering that Avisma covered 60% of Airbus titanium both material and parts needs, can hardly be qualified as not “joining”. So, you have to update a little bit your info.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/vsmpo-airbus-sanctions/russias-vsmpo-says-airbus-to-face-fines-if-quits-4-bln-titanium-contract-idUSL6N0O91HK20140523

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  457. AaronB says:
    @utu

    That’s a good point. In fact, fighting your ego only builds it! Something I realized in my personal life.

    The only real “solution” is to not care too much one way or the other, to see life as kind of a dream, ourselves, and the world, as not very important, as illusions.

    Trying very hard to be moral only builds your ego and makes you self righteous. As Russell says, how much evil has been done in the name of good. To fight evil, you become evil.

    This brings to mind Chinese “callousness” that Russell mentioned – it’s a profound recognition that at bottom, nothing really matters that much, and we can’t dramatically change the world.

    As a philosophy of life, this certainly leads to less evil than fighting for good. Look at the history of the West and it’s long bloody fight for “good”. And when did the West finally become somewhat peaceful? Only when it stopped caring, when it began seeing things as not really important. Only during our current “malaise”.

    When I criticize our malaise, I don’t really want us to return to our great days of motivation when we accomplished so much. That would be retrogression. We have a unique opportunity to reach the other side of our malaise.

    After centuries of taking the world and humanity seriously, we have finally realized we are nothing, and the world is nothing, and all our frantic activity was meaningless. But we don’t yet have the courage to embrace this new condition. We waver, and still search for “meaning”, and we try and find it in grand projects like feminism and flooding Europe with refugees. They are attempts to delay the final reckoning with our nothingness.

    But that will come, and the burden of the meaning will ease for a time, and we will become like ancient Asia just as Asia has acquired our stupidity. But that too will pass, and the West will become “great” again, and Asia once more “decadent”. Nothing is permanent.

    Well, thanks for providing me with that very stimulating rematk, utu. You are a more profound philosopher than you know.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  458. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @TT

    Yes, your first link, I had already included in my comment at #455.

    But I reiterate what I have said above that neither I nor you nor anyone else here knows what happened in Tiananmen Square in the early hours of June 3, 1989. All we know is what we have read, seen on TV, or heard others say. And what we have read, seen on TV or heard others say is contradictory. Specifically:

    (1) The Western MSM has mainly asserted that after Li Peng imposed martial law in China there was a violent crackdown by the Army on student protesters in Tiananmen Square, resulting in many deaths and injuries.

    (2) Alternatively, it has been argued that there was a crackdown on what were said to have been countrywide protests against the government, but that the carnage in Beijing did not occur in Tiananmen Square but on an approach to the square.

    (3) Another contention is that the violence was in some way instigated by the CIA in an attempt to overthrow the Chinese Government, as spelled out in the other link I provided at #455 above.

    The difference between (1) and (2) does not seem to me to make much moral or political difference. In either case the story is basically the same: the Chinese state was challenged and did what all states must do: it used all necessary force to eliminate the perceived threat.

    Alternative (3) is interesting and quite plausible to me. At the time the US had a more or less senile President thus providing considerable scope for action by his Vice President, the former CIA Director, George H. W. Bush, who could well, it seems to me, have orchestrated an attempted coup in Beijing.

    But again, we have no way of knowing what happened for certain and can only speculate, supporting such speculation with what arguments we are able to muster. At the end of the day, however, we will, if we are honest and clear thinking, still be unsure of what happened.

    As for the journalists who initially reported that a massacre occurred in Tiananmen Square, one wonders about their sources of information. Were they there, to report in person? It’s hard to tell. The CNN story that I linked to at #409 is dated not June 1989, but June 2014, and the author, Hilary Whiteman was not with CNN in 1989. In that 2014 article, the claim that elements of the 27 Army were responsible for the killing of students, that they did not speak the Beijing dialect and that they were laughing about the slaughter is attributed to the National Security Agency, and there is a link to the relevant NSA document.

    This raises the question of journalistic responsibility and ethics. If a reporter uses what constitutes the contents of a secret government document provided by one of the government’s own spy agencies, is that unethical. I would have thought not. The assumption has to be that a country’s spy agency is competent at spying and is not lying to its own government. Therefore, even if the CNN story was entirely false, if it were based on a leak of a classified NSA document, it represents a reasonable attempt to report what happened (presumably CNN had no one on the ground in Beijing at the time, which is a pity.)

    And just as CNN appears to have based it’s report on classified but leaked government information, it seems likely that this was true of British news reports. In that case, the cable by Britain’s ambassador to China, which utu quotes at #453, may well have been the basis of the British reports.

    That both the UK and US press may have had access to classified documents about the alleged Tiananmen massacre, suggests that such documents were disinformation deliberately disseminated to j0urnalists by the UK and US Governments. In that case, alternative (3) above, that the “Massacre,” real or otherwise, was a US organized attempt to overthrow the Communist Government of China seems plausible. Such a scheme would certainly have won the enthusiastic support of Britain’s then Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher.

    • Replies: @ThatDamnGood
    , @TT
  459. @Andrei Martyanov

    The Soviet Union had outstanding technology in titanium. The US engineering community didn’t think it could be reliably welded. Airbus was already using composites.

    A very large fraction of modern Russophobia in the UK is PR generated by exiled Russian oligarchs. One half of the Tory party right wing, with the political perceptions of John McCain, is very keen to repeat them. (The other end of the right wing is very pro Russian. I am in the Westminster Russian Forum where a lot of this fighting is focused).

    • Replies: @Avery
  460. Avery says:
    @Philip Owen

    {… by exiled Russian oligarchs……}

    Well, it is not exactly ethnic (Christian) Russians: as far as I know, mostly Soviet Jewish oligarchs.
    Such as the infamous Berezovsky.
    In US, we have the likes of Max Boot, born in SU/Russia, but virulently, hysterically anti-Russian.

    This anti-Russian hysteria by ex-Soviet Jews is beyond my comprehension, given that if not for Soviet victory over Nazi Germany, at the cost of millions of overwhelmingly Slavic/Russian fighters, there would hardly be any European Jews in existence today. The hostility is even more bizarre, given that a healthy chunk of these Soviet Jews are most likely descendants of the 1.75 million Jews SU saved* during WW2.

    ______________________________
    *
    [Russia Helped 1,750,000 Jews to Escape Nazis, Says James N. Rosenberg]

    https://www.jta.org/1943/07/02/archive/russia-helped-1750000-jews-to-escape-nazis-says-james-n-rosenberg

    {“Russia has saved over ten times as many Jews from Nazi extermination as all the rest of the world put together,” James N. Rosenberg, American Jewish leader, declared here today……} (1943)

  461. denk says:
    @utu

    China is hostile

    Yeah,

    ‘China is our enemy’
    ‘They stole all our secrets, including that wunderbar F35 blueprint’
    ‘They’r hacking into every facet of our life’
    ‘They’s a Chicoms under your pillow’

    Mad dog Mattis
    The Russkies/Chicoms are bigger threats than the Moslem terrorists

    ……………
    Ergo,
    We need another 21 trillions to upgrade our MICC !

    hehehehehe

    Who says you cant fool all the people all the time, with the murkkans its a piece of cake !
    Fool me once , shame on you, fool me since 1785………???

    Such Robber crying robbery bulldust,
    They’ve perfected it into a fine art, the murkkans lap it up with relish,
    every single time !
    I really dunno whether to laugh or cry babe !

    Fukus assault on the Chinese are so copious, dunno where to start and Im knackered,
    countering such B.S…..since 1999, the day NATO bombed the Chinese embassy in Ex Yugo. [1]

    Why not let the more eloquent speak,

    https://journal-neo.org/2018/01/20/continuity-of-agenda-us-encirclement-of-china-continues-under-trump/

    One link is worth a thousands words.

    [1]
    Which brings me to another amazing discovery, actual photos of the CIA’s “students” in their “democracy protest” activities, again disappeared from reality content and shortly thereafter the magazine that printed the photos, China Review, vanishing from the print world altogether. The July 1989 issue contained a number of photographs of violent activity undertaken by the “peaceful” participants – Tanks, personnel carriers, and army trucks demolished and lying in ruins; “students” carrying assault rifles etc. Apparently their CIA training involved more than facsimile machines.

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article177116.html

    • Replies: @denk
  462. @CanSpeccy

    TAM would have been less bloody (for both sides) if there were riot police units. There was none at that time. None because there wasn’t a need before that.
    And this is the interesting point.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @CanSpeccy
  463. TT says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Good to see that you has come to see thing without dogmatic. But to says (1)&(2) make no diff is not I can agreed on no matter how many times you repeat:

    (1)&(2) are absolutely morally & politically different.

    (1)”Massacre” means killing large number of innocents indiscrimately, if you still can’t figure out what it means. Like western msm propagated: armed troops sealed off all escape routes, gunning down & tanks rolling every students in TAM Sq to minced meat is a massacre absolutely immoral & politically wrong deserving world wide censor.

    (2) No one can blame China for been a responsible gov protecting innocents(incl guarding troop who are also human beings doing their job with family awaiting their safe return) from violent rioters.

    (3) With purposeful leaked of malign classified cables as fake evidences within days of event, follow by immediate embargo, UK & USNSA advance planning & motives are clear. Msm are just conduits. HK is one of the biggest loot in history if China leaderships Mr DengXP is overthrown. Still, 1Mil HK pp flee with huge capital.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_sovereignty_over_Hong_Kong

    Yes, everything we perceived now are only make up by our 5 sense doors and mind, that’s how our perceived world come to be. But the invention of multi Media allows us to see further than physical senses, hence it’s powerful influence to our daily lives. UKUS powers are psychologically controlling the world with their forward deployed gigantic multimedia propaganda machines.

    Here’s a interesting comment by an anonymous:

    The media, particularly the New York/DC media, has a Goldilocks bias–the one in the middle is always best whether it makes any sense or not. For example, the following quote by super-centrist William S. Cohen betrays an absurd, arrogant, imperialist misunderstanding of human nature:

    *We have to be forward deployed in Europe and in Asia in order to shape people’s opinions about us in ways that are favorable to us. To shape events that will affect our livelihood and our security. And we can do that when people see us, they see our power, they see our professionalism, they see our patriotism, and they say that’s a country we want to be with. So we are shaping events on a daily basis in ways that are favorable to our interests. You can only do that if you’re forward deployed.*

    (See Andrew Bacevich, Washington Rules, page 148)

    But the Washington scribes don’t call out our emperors for having no clothes because that would require calling themselves out.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @denk
  464. TT says:

    Mr Andrei,

    The most important sign of this was Vladimir Putin’s rather startling revelation, during his October 2017 Valdai Forum conversation with youth, of his concern for the fate of white European Christian Civilization and his desire to preserve it.

    The importance of this statement is difficult to overstate—much more is at stake than mere economic issues, however important.
    …..

    But Europe and Russia are effectively the same culture, while China and Russia are not.

    Putin at Valdai confirmed Russia as primarily a European nation and stressed the necessity to preserve it as such while preserving European, which is Western, culture as a whole—this is without doubt a most startling and profound political statement from a major global statesman in the 21st century.

    This declaration is indeed startling consider Russia under Mr Putin & his predecessors have already bended much to try gaining US&EU acceptance as equal/junior partner to no avail, only to be richly rewarded by more humiliation, sanction and military threat up to its border. This is a 180deg turn from his previous declaration that Russia future is with Eurasia, no longer with EU. What is this profound political statement goal?

    Is Russia seeing that a rising power China of Asian culture at its door step too much menace? What kind of result will such warning shot serve for its alliance with China to resist US?

    Does Russia see that the only way for it to be real multi polar big player (US, China, EU) of comparable bulk size is to become a White, Christian, European of Western culture, aiming for a Russiaton of United Europe?

    With Europe slowly coming to some understanding of the dead end of its cultural and economic policies, it is becoming clear that Europe sees neither China nor the United States as friends.

    Why Europe sees neither China & US as friends? China may have many differences, but US is largely a historical natural ally & leader of EU, a country mainly composed of European migrants.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  465. yurivku says:
    @Twodees Partain

    The russophobia is a media construct, and “a mile wide and an inch deep” is how it should be viewed.

    I’m afraid not. I’m sure it’s not the case.
    West got it with mothers milk. Many generations grown up with the hate to Russia.
    And currently we, Russians, have feelings like something between hate and contempt to common “West”.
    Dirty games with sport, santions, fake news did theirs work.

    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
  466. @TT

    This is a 180deg turn from his previous declaration that Russia future is with Eurasia, no longer with EU.

    EU and Western Civilization, as most normal people understand it, as such are not necessarily identical things anymore. In fact, EU is antithesis to Western Civilization, which by now exists only as a subculture, however large. Read what Lavrov said yesterday at XXVI International Christmas Readings in Moscow.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @TT
  467. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @TT

    With purposeful leaked of malign classified cables as fake evidences

    That’s only a hypothesis. But it seems likely.

    Re: (1) versus (2). I understand the meaning of the word “massacre,” but the meaning of the word is not the relevant issue.

    The relevant issue is whether it makes any difference whether a massacre occurred, if it occurred, in the Square or on the approach to the Square.

    That is what makes no moral or political difference.

    Moreover, faced by an insurrection, any government will resort to a massacre of rebels, including a massacre of “innocents,” if it believes that that is the only effective means to maintain the security of the state.

    I believe that that is essentially what Deng Ziaoping is reported to have said following the event, i.e., something to the effect that it (i.e., the violence) would have been worth it (i.e., to maintain the security of the state), even if a million had died. But the quote seems not to have been captured on the Web.

  468. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Surely the underlying issue is security not culture. Nixon went to Beijing to counter the vast power of the Russian dominated Soviet Union. Putin as the leader of a greatly diminished Russia, now seeks collaboration with the West to counter the rising power of China. It is balance of power politics. It is a natural and essentially automatic response to the changing relative power of nations.

    But, the NeoCon thieves and loons have a different plan, which is to smash Russia, subordinate the pieces to Poroshenkite puppets, who will (a) take a percentage while selling out the assets to globalist billionaire scum and (b) granting NATO the right to put its forces on the borders of China.

    In pointing out that the European people are being suicided by their own neocon puppet rulers, the Blairs, Mays, Merkels and other rubbish, Putin is attempting to dislodge the Treason Party in Europe, so that not only a collaboration for the preservation of the Russian and European peoples is achieved, but that the West remains strong in the face of growing Chinese (and potentially Indian) power.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  469. yurivku says:
    @Yee

    Chinese troll is something new to me, Go on buddy

    • Replies: @TT
  470. @CanSpeccy

    Putin is attempting to dislodge the Treason Party in Europe, so that not only a collaboration for the preservation of the Russian and European peoples is achieved, but that the West remains strong in the face of growing Chinese (and potentially Indian) power.

    You obviously are not very well acquainted with Russia’s realities.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  471. TT says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Now i catch what you mean in your article. The west culture & European values are already totally perverted. The world is fortunate to still having some sanes leaders around in Russia & China.

    Putin was good in taking a dig on US & EU over LGBT in last Socci Olympic: “even a dog know how to differentiate its mate”…

    For those who want to read:
    Lavrov’s remarks at the opening ceremony of the 26th International Educational Christmas Readings, Moscow, January 24, 2018

    http://www.mid.ru/en/press_service/minister_speeches/-/asset_publisher/7OvQR5KJWVmR/content/id/3033884

  472. denk says:
    @denk

    Actually CIA culpability had long been confirmed by whistle blower Ralph Megehee,

    ‘China, 88-94 Prior to the Tiananmen Square incident, NED had two offices in China that gave regular seminars on democracy. NED sponsored various Chinese writers and publications. Probably NED or CIA recruited numerous Chinese students studying in U S. When Tiananmen Square erupted, NED or CIA probably sent or helped FAX thousands letters to recipients in China, inflamed opinion via Voice of America and sheltered a leading dissident in US Embassy — which also arranged for many dissidents to flee.’

    http://www.friendsoftibet.org/databank/usdefence/usd4.html

  473. denk says:
    @ThatDamnGood

    Yes .

    Unlike their counter parts in ‘democratic west’, Beijing cops never carried side arms. But following the spates of CIA engineered brutal attacks in 2014/5 they
    had no choice but to arm themselves as well, courtesy of fukus !

  474. TT says:
    @yurivku

    I think Yee does has a good point.

    If Russia is as weak as Canada or other EU countries to be subjugated, US would be more than happy to have Russia as ally for exploitation and obedient lackey.

    But Russia prided military & nationalism are too serious challenge to its unipolar hegemony. Syria interference just proven too much, so the hysteria response.

    China is of similar case. After two down, India next.

  475. denk says:
    @TT

    Of course the fact that casualties was confirmed to occur outside of TAM makes a hell lot of difference, it shows that fukus had lied thru its teeth from the outset, propagating the ‘thousands of unarmed students massacred at the TAM’ canard until this very day.

    The key word here is ‘casualties‘ , which has been verified to include many unarmed soldiers beaten to death or incinerated in their vehicles by molotov fire bombs, contrary to the fukus promoted one way ‘massacre of unarmed students’

    Canspeccy insist on using the loaded word ‘massacre‘ in other words he already presumes CCP guilty as charged ‘

    In that case of course whether the ‘crime’ occured within TAM or outside is utterly irrelevant.

    • Replies: @TT
  476. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    You obviously are not very well acquainted with Russia’s realities.

    Would you care to elaborate?

    Does Russia wish to stand alone against the Chinese giant rising on its disputed Eastern border?

    Does Russia wish to have an Islamified, Africanized Europe on its Western border?

    Does Russia reject the possibility of a balance of power in Eurasia?

    Please tell us what are the realities that dictate Russia’s foreign policy.

    • Replies: @gT
  477. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @ThatDamnGood

    TAM would have been less bloody (for both sides) if there were riot police units. There was none at that time. None because there wasn’t a need before that.

    Right. After Mao had slaughtered how many million was it of his own citizens, 10, 20, 30, 40 million, Chinese people weren’t much inclined to protest publicly, and only got their nerve back in 1989.

    But now they have riot police because Chinese people protest all the time despite brutal repression, such as