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Should We Compete with China? Can We?
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The size of China’s displacement of the world balance is such that the world must find a new balance. It is not possible to pretend that this is just another big player. This is the biggest player in the history of the world. Lee Kwan Yew.

In 2003 I published a book charting America’s decline in thirty-six social and economic indicators. I mailed copies to the Administration, Congress and department heads and received one reply, from the Director General of the Central Intelligence Agency, saying that the Agency had been providing almost identical information to the government for decades. Since then our decline and China’s rise have both accelerated and momentum has carried us so far so quickly that competition is unrealistic.

* * *

If China resembled the caricature our media has drawn for the last seven decades then yes, we should compete with her repressive, extractive, authoritarianism and invest our bounty in advanced technologies to ensure that we remain the envy of the world.

But what if China is neither repressive, extractive nor authoritarian? What if we have no bounty left to invest? What if Chinese leaders are more popular, respected and competent than ours? What if her economy is thirty percent bigger and growing three times faster, with one-third the debt burden? What if she is already ahead of us scientifically technologically, is militarily impregnable, and possesses more–and more powerful–allies than we do? What should we do then? Here’s an inventory:

Government: Confucius, the supreme political scientist said, “If people have no faith in their rulers then the state cannot exist.” Our trust in government is at its lowest ebb in history. Gallup says most of us rank government as our most pressing problem and just 54 percent of us even ‘consistently express a pro-democratic position.’ China’s system of professional, non-factional government has returned it to its role as the Central Kingdom. Compared to ours, China’s government is forward-looking, decentralized, efficient and thrifty. The Government Entrance Examination selects the top 2% of graduates each year and success is the only avenue to power, responsibility. The 200 members of the State Council–all promoted on their ability to work cooperatively–have collectively governed billions of people for a combined 5,000 years and their publicly available stats are jaw-dropping. Most have a PhD and an IQ over 140. All began their careers in the country’s poorest villages and left only after raising incomes by 50%. They repeated that performance at every level, including the presidency, as Xi is doing.

Leadership. We choose leaders by acclamation–a Greco-Roman custom favoring eloquent rascals–and that is exactly what we have while, as President Trump observed, “China’s leaders are much smarter than ours. It’s like taking the New England Patriots and Tom Brady and having them play your high school football team.”

Economies. Today, China generates 20% of global GDP vs. our 15%, its imports and exports are in balance, its trading relationships are excellent, its currency fairly valued, its economy one third larger and growing three times faster, its manufacturing wages at parity with ours and its plans for 2025 are breathtaking.

Infrastructure: New highways, railways, subways and ports and, next year, the fastest, most advanced Internet and entire cities built around 5G.

Geopolitics. In 2018 China’s 34% world approval rating beat America’s 31% and Gallup says, “As the global balance of soft power continues to shift, it may prove even more difficult for the US to counter this influence.” They are focusing their attention on Eurasia and, Zbigniew Brzezinski[1]The Grand Chessboard warned, “Control over Eurasia would almost automatically entail Africa’s subordination, rendering the Western Hemisphere and Oceania (Australia) geopolitically peripheral to the world’s central continent. Seventy-five percent of the world’s people live in Eurasia and most of the world’s physical wealth is there too, both in its enterprises and underneath its soil. Eurasia accounts for about three-fourths of the world’s known energy resources.”

We ceded control of Crimea and the Black Sea to Russia and, increasingly, the Middle East, too. With the Belt and Road, China and Russia are amalgamating The Eurasian Economic Union (Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, the Kyrgyz Republic and Russia with Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Moldova in consideration); The Shanghai Cooperative Organization, SCO (Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, India, China, and Pakistan; with Afghanistan, Iran, Mongolia and Belarus as observers and Armenia, Azerbaijan, Cambodia, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Turkey as dialog partners); and the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, RCEP (Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Japan, India, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand). Once the Nord Stream II and South Stream pipelines are completed in December, how can the EU resist joining them

Finances. The Financial Times says, “America will need to sell $12 Trillion of bonds in the coming decade..Who on earth–or in global finance–will buy this looming mountain of Treasuries, the US borrowing requirement even before Trump’s major upgrade of America’s weapons systems? ..These borrowing needs [will all] have to be financed in the context of already high global dollar debt exposure. One of America’s biggest hedge funds privately concluded that in five years’ time the Treasury will need to sell bonds equivalent to 25 percent of gross domestic product, up from 15 per cent now. This level of debt has occurred just twice in the past 120 years, first during the second world war and then again during the 2008 financial crisis”. Russia and China have no foreign debt, and China has abundant savings and carries a debt burden one-third America’s or the EU’s.

Science. Their five IQ point advantage over us means that they have 300,000 people with 160 IQ, compared to 30,000 in the West. China has overtaken the US to become the world’s largest producer of scientific research papers, making up almost a fifth of the total global output, according to a major new report. China dominates a global ranking of the most-cited research papers published in the 30 hottest technology fields. Though the U.S. accounted for 3.9 million research papers overall compared with 2.9 million from China, the Asian country produced the largest share in 23 of the 30 fields that drew the most interest, while America took the crown for the remaining seven.

As we can infer from the chart, the social groups controlling our surplus used it for non-productive, ego-satisfying purposes which distributed the surpluses to consumption but did not provide more effective methods of production. China is the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields, ranking first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering and is rapidly catching up in physics. The U.S. led in physics, environmental and earth sciences, basic life science and clinical medicine. Twenty years ago Samuel Huntington[2]Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order, Samuel Huntington said, “Civilizations grow because they have an instrument of expansion, a military, religious, political, or economic organization that accumulates surplus and invests it in productive innovations and they decline when they stop the application of surplus to new ways of doing things. In modern terms we say that the rate of investment decreases. This happens because the social groups controlling the surplus have a vested interest in using it for non-productive but ego-satisfying purposes which distribute the surpluses to consumption but do not provide more effective methods of production.”

Technology. Two thirds of the world’s fastest computers are Chinese but nothing reveals the emptiness of our IP closet more than Chinese dominance of enhanced mobile broadband. We will take twice as long and spend twice as much integrating a less affordable, functional, compatible, upgradeable system. Yet our feckless media derided President Trump when he called for America to dominate 6G, despite the publicly known fact that Huawei has had 600 mathematicians, physicists and engineers working on 6G for over a year. China leads the world in most of the top ten ‘hot’ fields like battery research and accounted for more than seventy percent of all papers on photocatalysts and nucleic-acid-targeted cancer treatment, which ranked 12th and 14th. The US led in three biotechnology fields, including #7 genome editing and #10 immunotherapy. China leads the world in basic research and in most technologies, especially hot areas.

China also leads in all fields of civil engineering and of sustainable and renewable energy, in manufacturing, supercomputing, speech recognition, graphenics, thorium power, pebble bed reactors, genomics, thermal power, ASW missiles, drones, in-orbit satellite refueling, passive array radar, metamaterials, hyperspectral imaging, nanotechnology, UHV electricity transmission, HSR, speech recognition, radio-telescopy, hypersonic weapons, satellite quantum communications, quantum secure direct communications and quantum controls. “Approximately 72% of the academic patent families published in QIT since 2012 have been from Chinese universities. US universities are a distant second with 12%.” China will overtake the US in the most-cited 50% of Artificial Intelligence research papers this year, the top 10% of research papers next year, and the top 1% by 2025. Six of the eleven AI unicorns are Chinese. We have no entrants in quantum encryption or face recognition, nor 100 mph maglev subways, nor lossless power transmission.

  • Aerospace: China launched more space missions in 2018 than Russia or America and its first indigenous airliner will take to the air this year, despite FAA foot-dragging. It is the world’s leading provider of UAVs and the largest manufacturer and exporter of light combat aircraft. Now that its WS-15 fighter jet engine is in production, its J-20 will outcarry and outspeed our fighters.
  • Ocean engineering. China is the go-to builder for LNG transporters and naval vessels that require technical expertise (the USN approached it about building a floating dock) It designs, builds and operates the most powerful surface combatants afloat, the Type 55 cruiser, ensuring that its claims in the South China Sea and the East China Sea will not be contested.
  • Advanced railway equipment: China leads in all aspects of railway engineering and wins the bulk of global rail contracts. The first of five low speed maglev lines has completed testing and two more will open this year.
  • Energy-saving and new energy vehicles: China leads the world in batteries and electric cars and has more than 20 manufacturers competing to survive.
  • Power equipment: China leads the world in basic research and manufacturing of renewable energy and nuclear energy and installed more renewable and nuclear power last year than the rest of the world combined. It owns the market for long distance UHV transmission.
  • Materials Science. China’s share of the most cited nanoscience papers grows 22% annually and overtook the US in 2014. Its contribution–in quantity and quality–is now greater than the rest of the world’s combined. Most of the world’s graphene is manufactured in China, home to most graphene startups and the country is even with us in nanomaterial development.
  • Biomedicine and high-performance medical devices. Judged by papers in 82 high-quality research journals, China is the second leading contributor to biomedical engineering articles after the US and will overtake us in three years.

Trade. Midway in the sixteenth century China became the great repository of the early modern world’s newly discovered wealth in silver. Long a participant in international maritime trade, China experienced the consequences of the greatly enlarged patterns in world trade. In that commerce China was essentially a seller of high-quality craft manufactures. Other countries could not compete either in quality or price. The colonies of the New World and the entire Mediterranean sphere of trade, from Portugal and Spain to the Ottoman Empire, began to complain that the influx of Chinese goods undermined their economies. F.W. Mote, Imperial China 900-1800. China’s most significant trade relationships are with Asia and Europe, with the US third. As Parag Khanna[3]The Future is Asian: Commerce, Conflict, and Culture in the 21st Century says, Beijing must wonder why #3 would launch a trade war against #1. Though we are self-sufficient in many things,we may be more dispensable than we imagine. ‘America first’ sounds great except when it actually means ‘America alone’.

Social Indicators: Rulers who led their people to the Realm of Lesser Prosperity, a xiaokang[4] lifestyle, were themselves pillars of courtesy, sincerity, justice and virtue while those who did not lost power and everyone regarded them as pests. China’s GINI, which never reached our nosebleed levels, is dropping like a stone and extreme poverty will be gone next year, when every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health and old age care (there will then be more drug addicts, suicides and executions, more homeless, poor, hungry and imprisoned people in America than in China). 500,000,000 urban Chinese will have more net worth and disposable income than the average American, their mothers and infants will be less likely to die in childbirth, their children will graduate from high school three years ahead of–and outlive–our kids. Ninety-eight percent of Chinese listed as ‘poor’ already own their homes and Xi has scheduled 2021-2035 to bringing GINI below Finland’s.

Education: No country has so many intelligent, well trained, devoted engineers. One-fourth of the world’s STEM workers are Chinese, an intellectual workforce eight times larger, growing six times faster and graduating high school students three years ahead of ours. By 2025, China will have more technologically skilled workers than the entire OECD–the US, EU, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Israel, Japan, Korea, New Zealand, and Turkey–combined.

Low crime, no religious nonsense or Islamic violence. Companies can invest safely without fear of religious unrest, violence or robbery.

Faith in the future, nationalism, a belief in building a better China: the Chinese have a strong belief in the future and willingly sacrifice time and effort for the next generation. The Chinese are feeling as we did in the 60s, except that their wages and wealth have doubled every decade for seventy years.

Their Market: There are twice as many people in China than in the US and Europe combined and domestic consumption of China is growing 7% annually thanks to 200 million rural people moving into new cities. China will have abundant low salary workers in its western provinces for the next 15 years. Chinese companies are flexible beyond imagination. They can change products, management, focus or whatever literally overnight. The Chinese are incredibly flexible and their culture has already outlived the Egyptians, the Greeks and the Romans. Western companies are hierarchically organised whereas in Chinese companies decisions are made fast, often on the phone.

Politics. China is the world’s leading democracy. Though this claim enrages many Westerners, regardless of the metric employed, electively, popularly, procedurally, operationally, substantively, financially, and technologically, China is a thriving democracy and America is not.

Defense. The PLA fields some of the most modern weapon systems in the world at half the cost of America’s defense budget. Its more modern missiles outrange ours in every weight and class thanks to the tight coupling between their world leading chemists and rocket propellent manufacturers. Russian weapons systems fill any gaps.

Morale. A highly cohesive society, 95% support their government’s policies and most are willing to fight for their country.

The Future. By 2025, nine provinces will enjoy higher average incomes than the US. By 2040, all will.

Notes

[1] The Grand Chessboard

[2] Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order, Samuel Huntington

[3] The Future is Asian: Commerce, Conflict, and Culture in the 21st Century

 
• Category: Economics, Foreign Policy • Tags: China, China/America 
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  1. Biff says:

    Their Market: There are twice as many people in China than in the US and Europe combined and domestic consumption of China is growing 7% annually thanks to 200 million rural people moving into new cities.

    The NBA took notice with a foot in their mouth.

    • Replies: @Rich
    , @follyofwar
    , @Moi
  2. Biff says:

    Western companies are hierarchically organised

    Micro managed from the top. This is not just how business is done; the whole culture rolls this way(government/business/education/healthcare/war/retirement). A society of drones and not a single one of them can make a decision. If you want an example of how it works, just get on the phone with one of America’s lovely corporations, or government institution, and try to make contact with a real person, and then try to make contact with a real person on the same continent as you, and then try to get them to make a real decision. Good luck!

    • Replies: @George F. Held
    , @CanSpeccy
  3. Kronos says:

    Now that’s a really nice map!

    • Disagree: Hail
  4. Asia in general, esp China is a culture of society/country before self, whereas the West esp. USA is more self before country. (Nothing with patriotism).

  5. Trade. Midway in the sixteenth century China became the great repository of the early modern world’s newly discovered wealth in silver

    Yes, when the Portugese ships could sail around the tip of Africa and siezed control of trade on the Indian Ocean and first visited Chinese ports.

    • Replies: @Kouros
  6. I shall read the article with some interest but I am already pretty clear about the answer. In amy of the kinds of competition that might be conceived by America’s recent leaders, political class and major influencers would aim for America desn’t stand a chance.by 2030 that will be clear to even the most deluded.

  7. Paul54 says:

    Well thats what decades of marxism in the west leads to.

    It will only get worse for us, the best you can do is plan now where you going to go to when it eventually all goes to shit

    • Replies: @Moi
  8. That all sounds very nice, Mr. Roberts, but you are ignoring the most important statistic of all: Birthrate. China’s birthrate is astonishingly low, and unless serious and drastic measures are taken to address that, China has no future.

    In addition, the Chinese government’s weak, soft-handed approach to the CIA terrorists in Hong Kong and the Muslim terrorists in their Northwest has been deeply troubling. (((Western))) media will paint them as monsters no matter what, so why not go with a much firmer approach?

    And if this is how timidly they deal with the terrorists in these areas, how can we expect them to do better when the (((West))) inevitably strikes much greater terror and violence deep into the heart of China?

  9. slorter says:

    Good article will keep that for reference !

  10. Diggs says:

    Make chums with China!

  11. China and chinese people are finding out that Kissinger’s “opening” was a TRAP or a Trojan Horse.
    Russian civilization OFFERED you hand of friendship, PEACE and PROSPERITY.
    Addiction to TERROR, PIRACY, and THEFT of others prevented you from accepting it, fueled by psychopathic desire to DOMINATE and enslave ALL non anglo-saxon or nazism in WASPs DNA .
    There isn’t ONE single agreement that 5 headed beast has EVER honoured with anyONE.
    Consequences of that are maturing and getting ready for harvest.

  12. Beijinger says:

    For the content, sir you are repeating yourself a lot.
    Normally I find a parallel universe of hell version of China through the west world narration.
    But you, sir, you give me the parallel universe of heaven version of China.

    For the title, that’s not a question. Yes you should, yes you can, yes you are, yes you will.

    Calm down.
    At our best, we may just play our traditional role again: lead the east Asia and trade with the world, while keep focus on our internal problems, which is a lot.
    Why are you so paranoid? It’s not like we are planning some end of world thing at home secretly.

    Human being learns and shares, on macro time axis, no one is fundamentally superior than others.

  13. Tom Welsh says:

    “We ceded control of Crimea and the Black Sea to Russia…”

    Pity about that. Happened some time after “we” “lost” China, didn’t it?

  14. Whitewolf says:

    It’s a good thing the Chinese haven’t yet discovered the benefits of diversity. They’d be unstoppable.

  15. Ber says:

    Healthy competition is good for everyone. People should really try.

    Competition should strive to uplift rather than to pull the other competitor down.

    • Agree: Iris, Mr McKenna
  16. Anonymous[155] • Disclaimer says:

    The US is a black and Mexican infested shithole whose biggest export is gangsta rap and is determined to alienate even the last of its most staunch allies such as the UK and Trump’s refusal to extradite the diplomat’s wife who killed British person in hit and run.

    Americans are such arrogant, deluded shits that most of the world would be happy to see China take over as the superpower.

    • Replies: @Moi
  17. GeeBee says:

    ‘We choose leaders by acclamation–a Greco-Roman custom favouring eloquent rascals’

    What a marvellous summation of the perils of ‘democracy’. I shall file that one away for sure.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  18. What do you mean by “we”, Kemosabe Godfree? You’re an expat selling retirement advice about, and living, in Thailand. Both your parents were Commies. What do you know about America, and what do you know about China, and how?

    You never answered my questions on whether you’ve been there or not. Do you have a visa? I’ve been just under a dozen times. I’m no expert, but I am one of those “noticers”, like Steve Sailer.

    And, D.B. Cooper, what’d you do with the 200 large?

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  19. onebornfree says: • Website

    The”Chinese Economic Miracle”Scam:

    The Chinese “miracle”economy is largely an illusion, a fake boom creation of its own central banks continual, massive creation of fake money[See article linked below] .

    It’s the exact same scam as the Fed perpetuates here in the US, but on an even larger scale .

    However, because the $US is still the primary reserve currency for most of the world, the Fed can get away with its fraudulent money creation to a larger degree and for a longer time period than can other countries, including China.

    Bottom line:”Mr Market” Will Speak – LOUDLY! :

    Sooner or later the Chinese fake miracle economy is heading for a huge collapse caused directly by the central banks creation of massive amounts of fake money to falsely “stimulate” economic growth and the so-called “Chinese miracle” , when “Mr Market” finally gets to have his say and readjusts everything back to the mean average[ and beyond].

    The Chinese bank engineered economic collapse is slowly happening right now, in real time [as in the US and elsewhere- Chinese government economic statistics are all lies], and will only further further accelerate as the commies inevitable response will be even more centralization of the Chinese economy, and even more printing of fake money/ fake credit.

    The then further accelerating Chinese economic collapse will make the Chinese commie elite insider megalomaniacs and control freaks even more desperate to create major distractions for its increasingly impoverished slaves, as its fraudulent currencies value tanks relative to the equally fraudulent $US [and others.]Which means, [if history is any guide] : major distraction – WAR!

    And so it goes…

    The Real “Helicopter Money”: Since 2009, China Has Created $21 Trillion Of New Money, More Than Double The US:”….Chinese banks have been on a credit and money creation binge, and have created RMB144Tn ($21Tn) of new money since 2009, more than twice the amount of money supply created in the US, the eurozone and Japan combined over the same period. In total, China’s money supply stands at Rmb192tn, equivalent to $28 TRILLION. Why does this matter? Because Chine money’s supply is the size of broad money supply in the US and the eurozone put together, yet China’s nominal GDP is only two-thirds that of the US….”:
    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/real-helicopter-money-2009-china-has-created-21-trillion-new-money-more-then-double-us

    Regards, onebornfree

  20. Nava Nova says:

    It seems true China is heading to rule the world in everything , but the question is Will America sit and watch China’s millitary global domination, in the economic sphere it is almost impossible to compete and win China. What about in millitary , I think the time is approching the Americans drag China into regional conflict be it with Japan or Korea or even India.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  21. onebornfree says: • Website

    China is killing ethnic minorities in order to harvest their organs, but globalists say America is bad for using plastic straws
    https://fascism.news/2019-10-09-china-killing-minorities-harvesting-organs-america-bad-plastic-straws.html

    What Was China’s Cultural Revolution and Why Was It So Violent?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G0UXnXpABw

    So You Want a Cultural Revolution?
    Remember the one that put Mao on the map.:

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/so-you-want-a-cultural-revolution/

    Concentration Camp Survivors: China Using Forced Sterilization, Abortion for Genocide:

    https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2019/10/07/concentration-camp-survivors-china-using-forced-sterilization-abortion-for-genocide/

    Chinese Citizens Will Be Required To Scan Their Faces To Use The Internet:

    “The Chinese government continues its Orwellian practices with the announcement that citizens will have to use facial recognition technology to access the internet (which is already highly fire-walled.)…”:

    https://www.activistpost.com/2019/10/chinese-citizens-will-be-required-to-scan-their-faces-to-use-the-internet.html

    “China footage reveals hundreds of blindfolded and shackled prisoners
    Video shows what appear to be Uighur or other minority prisoners “:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/23/china-footage-reveals-hundreds-of-blindfolded-and-shackled-prisoners-uighur

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
    • Replies: @klc tan
  22. The real question is, can any nation outside the “Western alliance” freely compete with the US? The rules of engagement, free trade competition are refashioned by US might and rules are bent and rewritten at will. They have the same credibility as the countless treaties breached and trashed by our country from the nation’s founding to this day.

  23. I don’t care for these insectoid yellow people. There are now so many Chinese that life would be cheap there even without communism.

    The chopstick reds really do have plenty of advantages:

    “Allowed” to have ethnostate.

    No “Lothschireds” pulling strings.

    No large and growing populations of orcs and other third worlders to feed.

    No ‘most important ally’ selling them out as they fight all the ‘ally’s’ wars.
    SHAROM!

    Any tech they couldn’t steal Cigar clinton simply sold or gave them.

    Their sheer numbers as a marketplace dictate approved entertainment even more than their fraudsident-for-life.

    No propaganda encouraging Chinese women to lie with orcs or other non-Chinese.

    Inscrutable writing system.

    No human rights to worry about violating. Nor compassion for animals.

    China First Chinese spread throughout the rest of world as colonizers.

    But fear not, Men of The West! An AI like Skynet, aliens or Eldritch Gods will take over by 2100.

  24. Kal says:

    The west doesn’t have a choice, but to try and compete with China. The Chinese are one of the most antiwhite powers that exist today and they are extremely friendly with Jews. They have been nursing a grudge against white people for 300 years they aren’t gonna be peace loving when they gain power. They call us 绑匪 among other racial epithets and despise us. If whites ever get control of their countries again kicking out nonwhites and Jews, China will still be a problem.
    Also, I need to mention how Saker and others always shit on racialism like Chinese people aren’t the most racialist people on earth and that has contributed to their success because they make it impossible for actual foreign peoples to immigrate to China and they put pressure on unwanted to groups like blacks to leave quickly.

    • Agree: Sick of Orcs
    • Replies: @TKK
    , @Anon
  25. Another day, another “how do you do fellow gwailo”-tier Unz propaganda piece straight from the Chinese government. I’ve read some articles on this site that I thought were good, but now I can only suspect that they, too, were full of shit.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  26. mike k says:
    @Ghan-buri-Ghan

    Ever watch cats fighting? The one lying on it’s back, belly exposed, and seemingly futilely trying to protect itself, is often the stronger cat daring the other one to attack it, and meet it’s defeat. Russia strikes a similar pose towards it’s enemies. Hitler found out too late what was in store for those foolish enough to invade Russia. Quiet strength has no need to bluster.

    • Replies: @FB
  27. onebornfree says: • Website

    “It’s Not A Game When It’s Real-Life” – China’s Social Credit System”

    “……The Digital Dang’an

    The social credit system may not be an entirely new initiative in China. The dang’an (English: record) is a paper file containing an individual’s school reports, information on physical characteristics, employment records, and photographs.

    These dossiers, which were first used in the Maoist years, helped the government in maintaining control of its citizens. This gathering of citizen’s data for China’s social credit system may in fact be seen as a revival of the principle of dang’an in the digital era, with the system providing a powerful tool to monitor citizens whose data is more difficult to capture…………….”:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/its-not-game-when-its-real-life-chinas-social-credit-system

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  28. The New Silk Road led by Communist China, Bolshevik Russia, and Bolshevik Israel with the help of Iran will be the economic end of the United States.

    https://www.opdeepstate.com/2019/03/26/the-tel-aviv-moscow-new-york-axis-israeli-russian-spying/

  29. Anonymous[291] • Disclaimer says:

    Confucius was a 6’2” blue eyed aryan.

  30. Don’t get your hopes up.
    China’s Investment in Africa: The New Colonialism?
    China formally opens first overseas military base in Djibouti

    Wolf Warrior 2
    Chinese action film…Chinese soldier named Leng Feng…finds himself in an African country protecting medical aid workers from local rebels and vicious arms dealers

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  31. Jess says:

    This article seems well researched and it’s all very interesting. But if it’s really accurate, especially the part about democracy, why didn’t we read anything about facial recognition and social credit scores? And whatever happened to that dissident, Ai Wei Wei?

    The way this article describes it, most all Chinese are happy, prosperous and overall content with their government. I don’t claim to know what’s really going on there, having never been there or done any serious research. But based on what I have read informally, it’s hard to believe.

  32. Anonymous[291] • Disclaimer says:

    I find your contention about right-tail IQ people very dubious. First, the US attracts “160 IQ” or equivalent contribution people from all over the world. Second, isn’t NE Asian IQ distributed with a smaller sigma?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  33. Rich says:
    @Biff

    The NBA threatened a boycott of N Carolina because of it’s refusal to allow men to use the ladies room. Why don’t they care about the Chicoms refusal to do so?

  34. onebornfree says: • Website

    G.Roberts says: “Should We Compete with China? Can We?

    Food for thought: “We”? “WE”?????

    Exactly who is Marxist “comrade” Roberts self-identifying with here? The US?

    “regards” onebornfree

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  35. nsa says:

    Godflee velly velly smalt and know Chinee weak not have gay plide palade and pelvelsion and polnoglaphy and kiddee poln and heblew tlibe cut end baby plick off and give away flee stuff evelyone like in gleat stlong Amelika.

  36. David Rockefeller sent his batman Kissinger over to China in the 1970’s to open up China’s slave labor to the US corporations and thus began the deindustrialization of America, as corporation after corporation moved their factories to China leaving behind unemployment and devastation in America.

    Everything that modern China has in the way of technology and industries was provided by the West and the leader in this transfer of wealth and industry was the zionist controlled ZUS, communists helping communists!

    • Agree: John Regan
    • Replies: @sally
  37. A 1000% tariff on all Chinese goods imported to the US would be a good start. Cripple the Chinese ability to export goods to the US.

    • Replies: @Biff
  38. Anonymous[127] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jess

    I understand it’s hard for u to believe. As a Chinese studied in America, I am Happy and overall content with the government. Most people here think I am brainwashed by the government. They don’t believe. But it’s fine. I was born in a humble family, even couldn’t afford the tuition for university 10 years ago. I worked hard for 10 years. Now I am study in the U. S. I don’t want to change anyone. what I am trying to say is China is not the worst as BBC or CNN describes. It’s also not the best, a lot of problems like bureaucracy, corruption, no freedom speach… Overall I am happy because my life changed dramatically. I don’t need to worry about my parents because of the medical insurance covered the costs.

  39. China is being very wise during the Hong Cong episodes to stand aside and allow the mainland people to see the result of residual Western values in action. Shanghai stands to reap the financial benefits Hong Kong forfeits.

    • Agree: Moi
  40. The author leaves out that America is politically unstable. You can to get that tidbit from ex CIA chief Brennen and Chuck Todd. Brennen tells us he is the real victim and Trump is a bully. You gotta love it when the former head of the CIA is complaining about disinformation.

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
    , @Ber
  41. Tina says:
    @Jess

    I understand it’s hard to believe. As a Chinese studied in America, I am Happy and overall content with the government. Most people here think I am brainwashed by the government. They don’t believe what I said. But it’s fine. I was born in a humble family, even couldn’t afford the tuition for university 10 years ago. I worked hard for 10 years. Now I am study in the U. S. I don’t want to change aanyone’s idea. Just telling you how I feel. China is not the worst as BBC or CNN describes. It’s also not the best, a lot of problems like bureaucracy, corruption, no freedom speach… Overall I am happy because my life changed dramatically. I don’t need to worry about my parents because of the medical insurance covered the costs. My Chinese friends pay more attention to work hard and change their lives. In national day post pictures as a proud citizen. It’s all voluntary. No one forces us to do so. But I noticed many people did it. According to the West, we are pretending we actually happy. Fixed mindset is scary. If I were America and curious about the world, I would go there to see by myself. How I feel people have little knowledge about the outside world. After I read the book “The West and the rest” I understand why people think like that. It’s great to learn from different perspectives.

  42. melpol says:

    Competition between nations has become obsolete. Investors now compete for the highest return on their money. Americans that have invested in China have been extremely successful. High volume of deadbeats in the US has made it a bad choice for investors. Middle class Americans have been cornered by deadbeats. Investors are looking elsewhere to park their bucks. The best investments are in a nation with smart people who require low wages not the reverse.

  43. @Hippopotamusdrome

    I was watching the latest “Godzilla: King of the Monsters” movie and it is quite clear that Chinese money has bought off Hollywood to the detriment of cowtowing to PRC sensibilities. Another movie with a Brit being the bad guy; must be delicious getting back at the Brits.

    But the thing that got me was an obvious sure fire reference that any Hollywood writer would have made where the Japanese male character volunteers for a suicide mission. ANY American writer worth their salt would have made some words about a Jap Kamikaze attack and maybe thrown in a Raising Sun headband.

    But No, can’t have that.

    PRC money has corrupted America.

  44. @Si1ver1ock

    The 17 so called intelligence agencies are all controlled by the zionists and the CIA and the Mossad are in bed together and are controlled by ZBritain and MI6, and all are working for a zionist NWO.

  45. @Biff

    “try to make contact with a real person on the same continent as you”
    50 years ago…no problem
    today…impossible

  46. Sean says:

    What should we do then?

    Get back from the future and attack them through proxies. Get Russia to fight them. India can help. Japan cannot be trusted so it will be the Asians on one side and the Europeans on the other. Countries like Russia don’t give in without a fight. India hates China. Actual war is not going to happen but the Chinese economy can be overheated by massive military spending by the US that China will have to try and match.

    Education: No country has so many intelligent, well trained, devoted engineers

    True, but the associative mating in China’s educational and research institutions is even more worrying. A generation of extra intelligent termite-like Chinese has already SWARMED OUT OF THESE BREEDING GROUNDS..

    • LOL: follyofwar
    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  47. Goddard says:

    The World Continent (Eurasia) is strengthening while the Island Continent (the Americas) is receding back to its more accustomed position historically, the periphery.

    Americans should not only accept, but welcome, this state of affairs.

    For 17 years I lived on either end of Eurasia: Netherlands 7 years, China 10 years. Every time I came back to the USA, I was struck by America’s enviable circumstances. Foremost among those enviable circumstances was our isolation between two vast oceans.

    Our forefathers, far from lamenting their inability to orchestrate affairs on the World Continent, rejoiced in their isolation on the Island Continent. Splendid isolation was the theme until only a hundred years ago, and persisted right up to Pearl Harbor.

    The post World-War II order is however fading away. A return to isolationism is in order. Americans should be less concerned about orchestrating world affairs and more concerned about preserving their way of life. We should be looking within, not without.

    China may say checkmate to America’s imperial ambitions, but China needn’t rob the United States of its independence.

    Americans should realize their enviable position on the Island Continent, cherish it, and defend it. We should implement a 100-year moratorium on immigration, deport forthwith freeloader immigrants and illegals (“Dreamers” first), withdraw from Afghanistan, wash our hands of the Middle East, and get out of Korea and NATO.

    We should build a mighty Wall to defend our way of life from Pauper America and allow the oceans to buffer us from the maelstrom of the World Continent.

    We should build a might city on a hill that will last a thousand years and that the nations of the World Continent will envy but not replicate.

  48. CONFUSE-IOUS ALSO SAYS: when going gets rough, the roughnecks get going, i.e. China ain’t got a chinaman’s chance against the eventual punishment that is forth coming from the white, Judeo-christian boys. Good luck!

  49. TKK says:
    @Kal

    Yes- the lunacy, absolute insanity, the jaw drooping stupidity of ” woke ” NBA coons groveling and licking Chinese boots, but Obama and Co. had to pitch a hissy fit just to get the Chinese to allow blacks to teach English there. Where there are thousands and thousands of openings, no blacks could get hired.

    Chinese recruiters would demand a Skype or WeChat session for new hires before the teaching session interview. As soon as they saw a black face, they would disconnect. Or they would demand a photo (still do) and if there was a black face- crickets. Haha!

    Now, you have a handful the have been hired to teach there, and they post YouTube clips about how racist the Chinese are and they are miserable.

    My sister teaches for the actual public school system in China, and said the few blacks hired do a runner- abandon their contracts and free apartments in the middle of the night, forfeit their pay packets and return tickets and run like cowards back to the USA.

    They don’t do ATL time. If you have a scheduled class, you are actually expected to show up and teach. Engage. Not wear bedroom shoes and a doo rag to work. Those high bars.

    And- highly aggressive head rollin’, finger shaking Negresses don’t minimally grasp the super important “saving face” prime directive in boss/ employee dynamics in China.

  50. Bill says:
    @FvS

    Sure that’s not England? France? Germany?

    • Replies: @Liberty Mike
  51. Bill says:
    @onebornfree

    The Chinese “miracle”economy is largely an illusion, a fake boom creation of its own central banks continual, massive creation of fake money[See article linked below]

    There are buildings and roads and railroads and factories. Hard to fake.

  52. The problem with Europe, is that it has no ideology other than Christianity, historically. And this ideology – as much as the moral spiel is excellent for the most part – is domineering, statist, and uncompromising. In a multicultural world, the Great Commission is only antagonism. Europe must get off its high horse. So a few centuries of excellent progress can be (mostly) put squarely on the shoulders of Europeans. So?

    The Chinese have millennia of progress. They may be a bit more Borg Identity, but personally – having swung from an uncaring non-observer of events – I see the West’s thinking as very Borg too.. the whole Chomsky ‘accepted range of debate’ is not much different from what China has really.

    And what is the benefit of being free to discuss politics when no thing you say or believe in will ever materialize into actual policy? In this respect, the Chinese do better with their polling, which substituted for a more direct democracy.

    I have hope their Communists could become Anarcho-Socialists/Anarcho-Capitalists when they are truly well provided for. They have given up power during Deng Xiaoping’s reforms once, so why not again? No Western political group has ever shown this flexibility.. the changes of 1848, 1918, were all committed to under the duress of the proletariat.

    ‘As it is for the individual, so it is for the collective’, to paraphrase Marcus Aurelis. Europe will only get off its high horse after a great fall, and it is coming soon, one way or another.

    Can Europe compete though? Sure. 100 IQ average is not insignificant. Being a bit less Borg is not insignificant. But only after an honest appraisal.

  53. @some passerby

    No, Godfree Roberts gets his paycheck from The Nose. The Chinese are too stupid for this operation. The Nose also bankrolls Pepe Escobar, and Tony Cartalucci(if I got that name right) and all three live in Thailand, and likely Andrei The Faker Raevsky. The Nose wants The United States and China to go to war, and for both to be crippled by it so The Nose can go in and pick up the pieces. The Nose started all this by moving US/CAN/AUS etc domestic industrial production to China in the 1990’s, this impoverished the common man in The West, and built China’s wealth we see today on their unemployed backs[and yes Godfree, that’s exactly what happened]. The new wealth of China has made their people arrogant and greedy, and now they are ready to act out their Imperial Fantasies. The Imperial Fantasies can be seen in current Chinese movies, really coldly arrogant stuff. Even cookie tins from China sold to Chinese here have pictures of weird ass gigantic palaces on their lids. All it will take is a provocative initial incident. The Chinese male is a really mentally ill arrogant atrocity prone to berserk freakouts over nothing. You kick that hornets nest once and its a Bugman Apocalypse. The Nose Master Plan is 1, build up Chinese wealth while impoverishing America; 2, The 9/11 attack gets The United States further impoverished, involved in pointless antiterror wars that cause US defense dollars to be wasted in counterinsurgency to the neglect of heavy maneuver and naval forces, and make the US look like an insane monster; 3, constant anti American propaganda and constant pro Chinese propaganda to glue a black hat on America and a White hat on China. Further pro China propaganda that China is the peaceful “Way Of The Future”, like the bogus New Silk Road nonsense. The New Silk Road only makes sense if you see it as a MILITARY CORRIDOR, its perfect for that, as an ” economic corridor” it is nonsensical. The Nose has been building its ties to China by providing China with United States developed military technology for decades(eg the Chinese J10 fighter is merely a knockoff of the Lavi jet fighter, and every significant piece of tech on the Lavi was gifted to The Nose by traitorous US jooooz infesting our government). All current events are pushing China and America to war against each other, Americans cannot benefit from such a war, and the Chinese have been led to believe they will but it is a Nose fostered delusion. Timetable calls for the war about 2030-2035. The current Bull Market Cycle will be over end of 2034. It is ruinous to conduct total war during a Bull Market Cycle, it produces a Great Depression(eg WWI was conducted during a Bull Market). The opposite effect is achieved by conducting total war during a Bear Market Cycle, it produces a boom(eg WWII was conducted during a Bear Market). The Nose greedily expects to pick up ALL the pieces in the Great Depression that will follow a war between China and The United States. Unfortunately, I will live long enough to see this come to pass. And no Mr. Unz is not a mouthpiece for the Chinese Government, and he is not a Nose Agent, he made his own money himself that gives him freedom of operation. He IS very interested in the way multiple viewpoints interact, which makes The Unz Review about the only tolerable site on The Web. BTW, it is fuckin heavy work finding and publishing two fresh articles per day 365 days a year, plus the Archive, plus he writes his own software, all this FREE for us when he can afford build a mansion and stock it with a dozen babes whose sole job is hang around the pool naked “talking to Ron”. Show some gratitude and work on writing some entertaining comments…..

  54. @Biff

    I normally like Tucker Carlson. But he’s gone way off the mark in ridiculing the NBA for not backing up that General Manager, who said we should stand with the Hong Kong rioters. China is a huge and growing market for the NBA. They are not going to give that up for the sake of some Western oligarch financed Color Revolution in Hong Kong. Nor should they.

    • Replies: @d dan
  55. Chinese people have bad breath. A race of people with bad breath cannot become world leaders.

  56. melpol says:

    Chinese workers are half the size and twice as smart. Eats less and needs a cot and small room. Importing 200 million Chinese technicians will make America great. There is no use for deadbeats except as dog meat.

  57. @Sean

    “Sean” disappears and “The Dark Night” appears, “The Dark Night” disappears and “Sean” reappears. Ah yes, the endlessly fascinating behaviors of Mosca Judaica. “Let’s You And Him Fight”.

    • Replies: @Poco
  58. Anon[398] • Disclaimer says:

    This reads like another Chinese Communist Party brochure, like everything else written by Godfree Roberts. Is that even a real name?

    China will never overtake the US for three simple reasons:

    1) The richest and smartest in China continue to emigrate to the US in droves. The most coveted document in China is an American green card, or even better, passport. Not even a Nobel prize can compete with that. When money and talent continue to flow out of that country at such a high number, it could never really develop. Go to the West and Northeast coasts of the US, we are practically blanketed by the Chinese locusts.

    2) Chinese youth continue to worship America through our pop culture – Hollywood, rap music, NBA, NFL, Gap, Nike. America’s soft power is too irresistible. In no time they too will become a nation of dim witted SJW shitlib degenerates who are addicted to videogames, pornography, pot, YouTube, narcissism, homosexuality and transgenderism. The Chinese I’ve seen in the US are even more addicted to their American engineered smartphones than Americans. Not so smart after all, are they?

    3) Meanwhile, we have millions of “best and brightest”, “highly skilled” from India who continue to flock in like cockroaches to keep us atop the tech sector and all scientific research. We will begin to look as advanced as India in no time. The China trash who flocked here came to work for their Indian bosses, who routinely pass them over for promotion to promote their own tribe. Again, not so smart after all, are they?

    • Replies: @melpol
    , @follyofwar
    , @Whitewolf
  59. @Ghan-buri-Ghan

    Following the revolution in 49, the PRC made great strides in improving the health of it’s people.
    China became the first and only country to conquer Shistosomiasis, which afflicted the great majority of it’s riee farmers, and made other improvements in rural health.
    In consequence, the population doubled. The population is actually beyond the carrying capacity of the land they live on.
    So, China developed it’s one child policy, which the west, particularly the christian fundamentalists, denigrates. Your comment, to me, reeks of this narcissism.

    China is automating it’s industries, including it’s agriculture. As it does so, the number of workers needed drops. China is developing it’s services sector, which the west seeks to dominate. Demands made by the US always attack China’s 51% rule, because the US banks want to use USD to dominate Chinese financial services, and therby control the Chinese economy. As the services sector grows, additional people will shift from manufacturing to it, further reducing employment in manufacturing.
    The Chinese believe the reduction in supply of labor and the reduction in the need for manufacturing labor will balance, and it is PRC policy to ensure they balance, despite 200 million leaving village agriculture for city manufacturing employment.
    China is graduating millions from it’s universities, and they will lead the services sector into the future.
    Huawei is but one example of this.
    INDY

  60. @Joe Stalin

    Re: Wolf Warrior 2

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Warrior_2#Background

    A promotional poster showed Leng Feng giving the middle finger with the slogan “Anyone who offends China, no matter how remote, must be exterminated.”

    Alrighty, then!

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
    , @Anonymous
  61. @Tina

    Where did you get the idea that CNN describes China as “the worst”? That’s not what I’ve gotten out of the American TV-infotainment in the few times I’ve watched over the last years.

    I don’t know why you think we don’t wouldn’t believe you here, Tina. I personally hear the truth about China from lots of Chinese people.

    The question I have for you is, if everything is so great over there, why in the hell did you come to the US to study? You are not planning on overstaying your visa, are you, or getting a work visa next and then a green card?

    I’m asking this because I’ve been told that the Chinese universities are doing pretty well. Instead of the best and brightest coming to study at the great learning environments of, say 1990, you have many Chinese people coming to study here because they couldn’t get into a good school in China. Though you can get away from a lot of it in the engineering/science schools, American universities are rife with the cntrl-left political correctness and stupidity that are not that far away from your own country’s “Cultural Revolution” of 5 decades back.

    Why are you here?

  62. @Tina

    “Tina” AND “anon[127]” replying to Jess and BOTH cutting and pasting identical crap? I’ve heard the Chinese Way is cheating and doing as little work as possible, now I believe it. You tiddlywinks are piss poor at propaganda, better take China Air to Tel Aviv for at least a basic course.

  63. @Bombercommand

    What makes you think that Ron doesn’t hang around the pool in his mansion surrounded by a couple of dozens naked Russian voluptuous blondes while doing all the other shit? Just because the man is somewhat nebbishy looking doesn’t mean he doesn’t appreciate cavorting with gorgeous women!

  64. “By 2040, all will”
    Are you seriously claiming that China’s gdp per capita in its 40 provinces will suprass America’s by 2040? You can’t be this stupid you know.
    China’s economic success is down as Anatoly Karlin would say, demographics and IQ. China’s population is 4 times that of the US, but its workforce is 5 times that of US workforce. US’s workforce today is the least White in history, so this makes the matchup even less favorable to US. China’s workforce to population ratio is 20% bigger than US, so it has a much easier time climbing the ranks than a country like the US would, even disregarding policy. It’s workers are even younger than the US, and that matters for the innovations that spur per-capita income.
    So if China had the productivity of the average US worker, then its economy would be something like $105 trillion dollars(US GDP=21 Trillion time 5) , making it big as the entire world economy. If its productivity was as good as the average White US worker, then it would be even monumentally larger- probably in the $130+ trillion range.
    If we take your claims seriously, then the explosion in growth in China would be astonishing beyond all in history. As it stands right now, China’s economy is 28% larger in PPP terms, and its Net Wealth is only half of the US. In addition, its population is aging fast. If Godfree Roberts predictions come to light, then you are predicting a geopolitical shock of growth unlike any seen before.
    The fact is that China will be a great power, and it will play a major role in this century. But unlike Godfree Roberts and Ron Unz might claim, I am highly skeptical this will because of any good policies put in place by the CCP. This will be because China’s demographic advantage is the best that any country has seen in all of human history, and will probably never be recreated in another country again. Its young, monumentally large, high IQ population came to age as all its competitiors experienced mass aging and shrinking populations. This isn’t due to any special planning, but due to Mao’s stupidity coming to an end at the exact right time.

  65. Anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kal

    Chinese hatred of whites must be why every Chinese aspires to emigrate to white country the first chance they get.

    Wake up. Chinese worship whites. All the hatred comes from the West towards China, engineered by Jew run msm and neocon media like Breitbart, and evil evangelical Christians like Mike Pence who see it as part of their Christian duty to take down the godless heathen communist government. They are egged on by the globalist thugs who want to take down the Chinese government so they can loot and plunder from China the way they looted and plundered from the US.

    • Replies: @Goddard
  66. One more tidbit in favor of the US. We are a 13% black nation, and their high homicide rates and high rates of dysfunctionalism have severely impacted US growth. Our success is inspite of this sorry fact. Imagine what China’s growth would have been with a 13% black population…
    So this even impacts the US numbers further.
    This is one more major advantage that China possess, yet once again is only 28% bigger in PPP terms and has only half our net wealth.
    Yet, I’m told that the US is the stupid and foolish nation, and China is the really well run country…
    I know we are supposed to be contrarian on this website, but lets use our thinking caps once in a while…
    Considering that China is Goliath and we are David, we are doing really, really well…

  67. melpol says:
    @Anon

    English speaking computer programmers from India have the advantage over Mandarin speakers from China. But both are more valuable than American born technicians who spend more time in the toilet then at the desk. English speaking Chinese from Hong Kong or Taiwan are in demand. They are the brightest and smartest on the Planet. Most White males take Gender Studies or Urban History and are lost to national needs.

    • Replies: @Anon
  68. Interesting. However, concerning the 5 point IQ gap, which I accept, is it true that China has more geniuses than whites? I am thinking of Charles Murray’s “Human Accomplishment” which shows that an overwhelming percentage of important discoveries were discovered by white men. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought that while China does have a 5 point IQ lead over us, their Bell Curve is also very narrow so that on the outer right tale of the two Bell Curves, we have more geniuses than they do.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  69. Anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @Goddard

    Thank you. Could not agree more. We should also deport all Chinese, Indian nationals, dual citizens, Jews, Muslims, all anchor babies and their parents. They will never be loyal to the US.

    The US needs a complete decoupling from China, the sooner the better. We need to produce more of what we consume, they need to consume more of what they produce. Milton Friedman and his fellow globalism neoconism multiculturalism leftism preaching Jews destroyed America.

    • Replies: @Goddard
  70. Goddard says:
    @Anon

    Agree. Chinese don’t hate whites. I lived in China 10 years and never felt looked down upon. Chinese consider whites their equals or superiors.

  71. Anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @melpol

    Why don’t you all leave and see how worthless native born Americans are? No one wants you here except the greedy employers who are looking for cheap code coolies. It wasn’t the Chinese or Indians who started Silicon Valley, nor the Jews. Now these blood sucking leeches are changing the cool culture of SV into one of money oriented soulless garbage “app” producing cesspit rifed with homeless trash.

    English speaking programmers from HK and Taiwan? Don’t make me laugh.

  72. d dan says:
    @follyofwar

    “I normally like Tucker Carlson. But he’s gone way off the mark…”

    There are many smart and intelligent people in America. They make great decisions and strategic moves. But unfortunately, when come to issues about China, most of them can’t manage a competent assessment or sound judgement. This is because they are invariably handicapped by incomplete or outright false info about China, ideological stratification, cultural biases or even racism. They sometimes even confuse their own propaganda meant for mass consumption, with the actual fact that they need for their tasks and policy making.

    Exhibit A: “Trade war is easy to win” – so let’s start one now, and decide later how to win, what to win, and when to win. It is the direct demonstration of “shoot, lift your gun, and aim”.

    This is sad. Yes, China is an economic competitor, but it is also a potentially great (in fact, indispensable) partner to solving the many mutually common problems (e.g terrorism, arm race, regional wars, global warming, wealth inequality,…) the world is facing.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @melpol
  73. @Jud Jackson

    Jud: I agree, all the Nobel Prizes tend to be White. One point that people don’t talk about is Caltech’s faculty. While people talk about the undergraduate Asian population, another interesting point is the faculty being overwhelmingly White and actually quite a bit Hispanic. My guess is that affirmative action depresses White performance by quite a lot, which makes people to think that they are significantly less intelligent than Asians. But later in life, the differences in skill become evident, and Whites start dominating again.
    Actually Ron Unz had a very good point on this a while back. East Asians are 5pts more intelligent, but are less innovative than Whites, probably due to social norms in those communities. Interesting to see what the future holds for innovations from China as their culture gets changed from Globalization and becomes more Westernized

  74. @onebornfree

    So then there’s no difference between China and Zimbabwe. They both employ massive monetary inflation and that’s that?

    I’m not disagreeing that monetary inflation is a huge issue globally and very likely will end in a disaster of some kind, but claiming that everything China has accomplished is “largely” fake way overstates the case.

  75. @Anon

    With the Indians and Chinese having taken over the continental US, where does that leave dispossessed American whites and blacks in your scenario? Andrew Yang, afraid of angry gun-toting mobs of unemployed lumpenproles, automated out of their jobs, has a plan for that: UBI! But will a mere thousand bucks a month be enough to support their drug habits, not to mention their housing and food costs? I think he’ll have to do better than that.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @PSBindy
    , @RadicalCenter
  76. The US has never really competed it has looted, mostly with wars that benefit the rich. China is in competition with ideas too – their equivalent of the American conservative is a huge threat. Just as it happened in the US a privileged oligarchy is beginning to build their own dishonest version of reality with resilient myths about intelligence, fairness and the usual bullshit to justify tyranny. The CIA of course simultaneously started to wage internal war with this primitive political revival, i.e crack epidemic and more recently the financial crisis.

    • Agree: Agent76
  77. Agent76 says:

    October 14, 2019 China begins preparations for crucial Long March 5 rocket launch

    HELSINKI — China is set to attempt a return-to-flight of its Long March 5 rocket at the end of the year, with success required for the country to proceed with its major space ambitions.

    https://spacenews.com/china-begins-preparations-for-crucial-long-march-5-rocket-launch/

    Aug 26, 2015 How the West Re-colonized China

    The “Chinese dragon” of the last two decades may be faltering but it is still hailed by many as an economic miracle. Far from a great advance for Chinese workers, however, it is the direct result of a consolidation of power in the hands of a small clique of powerful families, families that have actively collaborated with Western financial oligarchs.

    May 4, 2012 General Motors is becoming China Motors

    Forget the spin. The evidence is clear and convincing. Did U.S. taxpayers save GM for China? Listen to the candid comments of GM’s CEO.

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  78. @Bill

    Why cuck for chairman Mao?

    Why cuck for his successors?

    Why cuck for those who revere him?

    It would appear that we have a cadre of adherents to the Two Whatevers Policy.

    • Replies: @Bill
  79. Anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @d dan

    Jews do not understand “sharing”. They only understand Total Domination.

  80. Anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @follyofwar

    Andrew Yang is a treasonous rat who wants mass importation of Chindians. The UBI is just red herring unfortunately many idiots are falling for it.

  81. willem1 says:

    “Is my country headed in the right direction?”

    1) Propaganda works much better when the government can muzzle or censor all opposing opinions.

    2) Give the ubiquitous public cameras, informants, and now the social credit system, how many people in China would have the guts to answer this question in the negative?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  82. sally says:
    @DESERT FOX

    Yes, Truman started the ball rolling, he claimed all of the land worldwide under the sea and 20 miles inland belonged to the USA PO 46092. then the Scranton Commission, then the continental Shelf act in 1954 these were lobbied for prizes, the powerful global in nature corporations that provisioned and financed WWII wanted. i believe Japan was before China in cheap labor.. there reconstruction money (US taxpayer $s) taught the global s how to use slave labor in a foreign host market. .

    The Commission study <=discovered the environment could be sold to humanity as a necessary reason to accelerate blocking USA companies from competing with Japn, China and the Middle East. That 1954 act and the 1974 EPA act established the necessary propaganda on College campi. It taught policy background, which allowed to shut down and transfer American production and competition much like global warming today and it produced the technology that allowed to find the oil. Instead of taxpayer money on research to get the industries to clean up (that would have raised costs more) the industries were urged to vacate to countries that had slave labor able to produce in USA corporation owned business, what was once produced in America, the advantage was the cost of labor and the insulation the globe trotters enjoyed that prevent domestic USA corporations from competing Goods so cheap even the most efficient could not compete <=provided the monopoly the domestic corporations doing business in a foreign host company needed. .

    Economic Zionism, takes no prisoners, allows no competition, destroys all it cannot control or own. And EZ is not capitalism as capitalism requires a government to prevent the formation of monopolies, not create them by rule of law and make grants of them to corporate lords.

    Policy<= Deny competition, make sure you have a monopoly over everything (copyright, patents, privatization, and government contracts) get the host nation to pass laws that prevent any upstart competition.. start wars, sanction. or starve those who don't allow or bow to big daddy corporate demands, after all they must deliver their profits to their organized crime owners.

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  83. SafeNow says:

    Chinese-Americans tend to be decent, industrious, intelligent, fastidious, conscientious, phlegmatic, and self-segregating. Overall, not a bad constellation of traits, especially from the viewpoint of someone who has just endured a perfunctory medical appointment or a power shutoff or a knockout punch.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  84. Cyrano says:

    I am not impressed at all with all the statistics that the author throws at us in this article – all of them favoring China. For the record, all those statistics were compiled BEFORE Joe Biden’s son quit the Chinese firm that he was “working” for.

    Let’s see how China will be able to cope after losing such a brilliant, brilliant mind. I expect that all those statistics will tumble, once the loss of Biden’s son starts to bite.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/13/joe-bidens-son-hunter-announces-resignation-chinese-firm-amid/

    • LOL: Escher
  85. As I read all this about the wonderfulness of China, there was some theme music playing in the back of my mind.

    On that train, all graphite and glitter
    Undersea by rail
    Ninety minutes from New York to Paris
    Well, by ‘76 we‘ll be A-OK

    Not that I begrudge the Chinese all this bliss and Better Living Through Chemistry. Sounds kind of like Fred Reed’s Mexico. Still, I find myself a bit … skeptical.

    • Replies: @Liberty Mike
  86. FB says: • Website

    Well…Mr Roberts is right about a lot of things regarding China, especially its capable and professional system of governance…there is no question that the CCP definitely has as a priority the well-being of its citizens…

    However…when it comes to science and technology he shows once again that he is simply not equipped to understand this area…

    Consider for instance that Russia is now going to help China establish its own early-warning system for the launch of ballistic missiles…this technology is possessed only by the US and Russia and involves both space-based sensors and ground radars…

    He trumpets the fact that China is bringing into service the C919 passenger jet, which is a narrow-body jet in the class of the B737 or A320…but this airplane will be powered by GE engines and will use western avionics…

    China is still not able to produce good jet engines…the Russian civil aviation sector, despite being crushed by the implosion of the Soviet Union still has the capability to make world class engines avionics etc…the Russian narrow-body MC21 already has Russian PD14 engines…

    The domestic avionics are ready and so is the domestic carbon fiber production for aircraft wings and other airframe structures…within two or three years Russian content in their new civil aircraft will be 97 percent…making US sanctions meaningless in terms of sales to countries like Iran and others…

    The new wide-body CRAIC 929 wide body airliner that is now in development is a 50 50 joint venture between China and Russia…but crucially the main design center is in Moscow, while the assembly will be in China…this is a good analogy for the overall state of China’s technical capability…it’s great at production, but still second tier in the brain power…

    We saw also for the first time China’s DF17 hypersonic glide weapon…but this has much shorter range than the Russian Avangard, which is truly intercontinental…the DF17 only has a fraction of that range…the two cannot be compared…

    China may be launching satellites at a good clip, but they bought from the Russians the technology for manned space flight, including the Soyuz spacecraft technology, life support systems, space suits etc…China has put a man in space only because of this technology transfer…

    Developing these kinds of advanced capabilities takes time as I have explained before…the development of a broad and deep scientific-technical establishment does not happen just like that…it takes several generations to build up…

    Also Mr Roberts keeps on harping about the non-existent quantum technology which is still years away…I have covered this topic in depth already in another thread…there are still so many obstacles to be overcome, that in the end it may amount to nothing…

    I won’t even mention ‘AI’ which is a joke…there can be no real ‘artificial intelligence’…we don’t have any clue in fact how human or other animal intelligence even works…which is also why IQ is a ridiculous notion that has been perverted from its original idea of simply identifying people who are retarded…

    Publishing ‘scientific’ papers includes all kinds of garbage in non-sciences or pseudosciences like sociology, political ‘science’…psychology etc…this is complete fluff which is leading to ZERO progress for mankind…

    I can count on my fingers the truly groundbreaking papers in physics and math that have been published over the last century…

    Same goes for patents…Mr Roberts has no idea that any stupidity can be patented…it has been only recently that the US patent office has refused to accept patent applications for perpetual motion machines…which violate fundamental laws of physics…but that has not stopped many patents being granted for such in the past…

    Again only a handful of patents have been truly epochal…Frank Whittle’s patent for the turbojet engine…Arkhip Lyulka’s patent for the turbofan engine etc…besides most truly significant patents are secret because they have military applications…

    This ‘counting beans’ stuff is just nonsense and reflects poorly on the overall scholarship [or lack thereof] of Mr Roberts’ articles…

    China has made a lot of progress in its scientific and technical capability, and at some point it will be on a par with Russia [the US seems to have reached its peak several decades ago and is now on a downhill trajectory]…

    That is the reality…

    The other thing I have a beef with is this 5G technology in general…these very high frequency radio signals beaming at us ubiquitously every few feet could have very serious consequences for the human body and brain…electromagnetic radiation is already a problem…

    I think the Chinese are making a big mistake in building out this 5G in their cities…there is no need for these super high microwave frequencies…a phone when all is said and done is just a phone…it’s much more important that you actually have something intelligent to say into that phone…

    All the rest of the crap that comes with a smartphone is mostly a waste of perfectly good time…and humans are for sure getting dumber in direct proportion to using these stupid things…

  87. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @John Arthur

    ?? China has a comparable median age to Western countries. It is aged and has horrible demographics.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  88. Goddard says:
    @Anon

    The Chinese, Indian nationals, etc. are not the core problem. They’re just opportunists. The deeper problem is that the White people in America are divided. Whites in America are like a husband and wife arguing in the living room and both of them forgetting that they left the back door open, allowing interlopers to sidle in. White people in America will be united again, one way or another, either while they are still the core ethne in the society or after they cease to be the driving force. If Whites can learn to understand their specialness and the specialness of the nation their forebears created, and can cherish and preserve that nation, then ridding our nation of the interlopers and opportunists will be a simple matter.

    • Replies: @Anon
  89. One Belt Road is a baboondoggle, a white elephant project. At least for now. It links China with lots of second-rate or third-rate economies that will just be a drain on China.

    China is better off spending money to clean its environment.

  90. FB says: • Website
    @mike k

    The reason cats lie down in a fight is because it’s a very powerful tactic…for physical reasons…

    Number one, the cat on the ground can now use its front legs and claws to hold and clamp onto the opponents head and inflict dangerous bites…it can also bring its hind legs into play by delivering strong kicks [with claws tearing] to the head of the opponent that he is holding onto…

    If you actually watch two tomcats in a fight they will both end up on the ground, with each holding onto the other…until they tire out if they are evenly matched…it’s a grappling match…

    It is similar to having a ‘ground game’ in martial arts…an extremely dangerous skill…and makes possible submission of a much stronger opponent…in actual combat where there is no quarter given, grappling is the only way to kill a human with your bare hands…striking is futile and will not do anything, especially if the guy can take a punch…

  91. melpol says:
    @d dan

    Chinese eat/need less and produce more.Slanted eyes and usefulness seem to be correlated. Europeans/Africans are bloated and exist from a disappearing age.Round eyed people made their mark in the age of Colonialism. Most live on big pensions or food stamps, and are despised in Asia. The Western brand is outdated. Three billion smart Asians cannot be swept under the carpet or thrown under the bus. China will grant all Americans two thousand a month if they will all retire and quit annoying them.

  92. @Sam Coulton

    China’s median age is 36
    Us median age for Whites is 46
    China’s workforce is significantly younger than US’s
    Since the younger Latinos are still assimilating and the Black population totally dysfunctional, and Asians still not yet a substantial size of workforce, then one could conclude that the high-IQ, educated share of the US workforce is much older than the high-IQ,educated share of the Chinese workforce.
    Anyways, when China began its remarkable growth, Western countries had just finished the last burst of the baby boomer populations, so I think the picture of demographics still holds up.

  93. @Reactionary Utopian

    China 2030 for 1,000:

    What a Beautiful World this will be?

  94. Svevlad says:

    Of course you should – everyone should. It’s just that we’re all used to the main power deliberately keeping everyone else down. China isn’t interested in that, seems more interested in everyone reaching their max potential. If everyone cleans their house everyone will be better off mentality.

  95. Any article that shows what China has accomplished and that the West is deluded to think it can defeat or subdue China brings out the ‘fear and hate’ China narrative pushers.

    No matter. Reality will march on. The coalescing multifarious East is rising and will not bend its knee to the West. For Russia, China, Iran, and others defeat is not an option and is now impossible. The West has been checkmated. It’s days of plowing and plundering the rest of the world is ending. Its rich and powerful elites are grinding their teeth and spewing lunacy that is a sure sign of where they are headed.

  96. Anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @Goddard

    Whites are divided because of Jews. Neocon Jews on the right united with the evangelical Christian right to bring in Muslim refugees and shill for Israel, while leftist Jews shill for social justice, open borders, homosexuality, transgenderism, pornography etc. So we end up with the same (((deep state))) run government no matter who we vote for, who give us endless wars, endless immigration, and endless moral degeneracy.

  97. Poco says:
    @Bombercommand

    Sagi Harari and dark night are definitely the same person.

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
  98. melpol says:
    @John Arthur

    No nation can be first world with an average IQ of less then 88. Airline maintenance workers need a high IQ or cracks will occur in the aircraft. The recent Boeing crashes were due to faulty maintenance and low comprehension of workers. Its goodbye to the US aircraft industry unless they import Asians with a high forehead.

  99. d dan says:
    @FB

    “I think the Chinese are making a big mistake in building out this 5G in their cities…there is no need for these super high microwave frequencies…”

    I am old enough to remember they said the same thing about Internet: why did you need email when postal service was so cheap. And then with Google: why did you need to search in Internet when local library was free and convenient. I am not old enough to hear about automobile, but I read that when it first came out, people was asking why did they need a car when horses only needed to eat grass and not the toxic/expensive gasoline.

    Luckily, the experts’ consensus in this country disagree with you on 5G, for else there won’t be any need to ban Huawei, or going all over the world to convince countries not to use Huawei.

    It will be too time-consuming for me to go through the rest of your post, because it contains too many:

    1. misconception e.g. “there can be no real ‘artificial intelligence’…we don’t have any clue in fact how human or other animal intelligence even works” – (AI does not need to mimic human/animal intelligence),

    2. sweeping dismissal e.g. “non-existent quantum technology” – (duh, it is in research phase), or

    3. inaccuracy e.g. “CRAIC … crucially the main design center is in Moscow, while the assembly will be in China…” – (they have design centers in BOTH Moscow and Shanghai),

    4. etc.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FB
  100. I have no doubt that we can easily compete with China and win. But our country is run by those who care more for foreign interests and their own pockets than their own country. From senators to congressmen & congresswomen, from academics to media, from retired military officers to the executive office – all trying to protect the interests of foreign countries and their own bank accounts. And while unz depicts Trump as either some rebel leader who wants to MAGA but is being sidelined by the deep state or as some retarded, immature, innocent child who is being manipulated by Kushner and co., the unfortunate reality is that the foreign power has solidified more in the Trump era (and with his approval) than at any other time. Our structural integrity is compromised. When the likes of Epstein become our role model philanthropists and his girlfriend disappears and walks away free – it’s a sad day for America. It shows that the true American awareness and power are now confined to a bunch of complainers (like myself) leaving messages on websites. We are like zombies – sort of alive but with no brains.
    Concerned citizens express their concerns from voting, media, academic inquiry, legal system, protest, and free speech. Imagine if all of them are controlled – and the last resort left is protest but you can’t even do that because you’re carrying all that sweet debt you must keep to pay for your toys and hence you can’t take off from work like the Hong Kong protestors. There is no hope. The sad part is that the Chinese are not good. It’s us. We have declined.

  101. @Nava Nova

    IMO, China will never try to dominate the world militarily, it saw what it did to the USA.

    China learned from the collapse of the USSR, it is learning from the American overreach.

    My take on this.

    • Replies: @Sean
  102. FB says: • Website
    @d dan

    I usually don’t reply to obvious retards…but everything you squirted out your ass here is bullshit…

    • Replies: @d dan
  103. AaronB says:
    @FB

    it’s great at production, but still second tier in the brain power…

    The amusing thing about China is that the reality is opposite of the popular perception.

    It is precisely in brain power that China is not first rate.

    Its advantages lie in social organization.

    But popular perception often lags reality. In 30 years from now I think we’ll no longer be hearing about superior Asian intelligence. It will be one of the curious myths of the early 21st century.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Mj
    , @last straw
  104. https://news.yahoo.com/1-dead-19-injured-hard-095956818.html?guccounter=1

    Hotel falls down.

    Immigrant owner employed unqualified coloured coolies.

    Whites are simply burdened by diversity and Jews. If whites could just get free of the endless subversion of diversity, it wouldn’t even be a competition.

    And stop the binary thinking. The Chinese are just the Jews of Asia.

    It isn’t either/or. It’s neither.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Anon
  105. melpol says:

    Dozens of ICBMs with nuclear warheads is in China’s possession. They can turn the US to ashes if attacked. The arms race is over and exists only for more profits to the arms industry. News wars will be between bankers trying to get the best returns on investments.

  106. FB says: • Website
    @d dan

    Btw moron…

    Russia and China to agree on location of the CR929 design center

    There was a disagreement between the two countries about the location of the design and engineering center of the aircraft.

    After long debates, Russian officials have finally convinced their Chinese counterparts in Beijing that the center should be headquartered in Russia.

    The CR929 engineering and design center will be a separate legal body that will be responsible for obtaining and maintaining the aircraft’s type certificate.

    This is crucial…the Chinese have never actually built and certified passenger jets…as an aerospace engineer who has worked in this field for decades, I consider your comment to be incredibly stupid and uninformed…

    Aerospace was a well-developed industry in the Soviet Union. In late 1980s, the Soviet Union accounted for 25% of the worldwide civilian and 40% of the worldwide military aircraft production.

    The Russians have been building jet aircraft for decades…the widebody IL96 is being produced today with all Russian content…

    The FIRST successful passenger jet in the world was the Tupolev 104, which entered service in 1956…and was the ONLY passenger jet flying in the world until 1958…when the Boeing 707 was introduced…

    Like I said, you know zilch about anything having to do with aviation…or any technical subject for that matter…to try to put China’s fledgling aviation industry on the same footing as the Russian aerospace industry is insane…

    As for 5G, you obviously have ZERO idea about the effects of high frequency microwaves on the human body…you talk about ‘experts’…what a fool…there are plenty of ethical experts who are sounding the alarm about exposure to this radiation…

  107. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:

    After reading this propaganda piece from the main journal of the People’s Liberation Army I think I’ll move to China because everything there sounds so heavenly. If I was having a face to face conversation with him, I would like to ask: If everything is so wonderful in China, why do so many people emigrate to North America and Australia? I live in a large city in Canada and it’s no secret that it has been invaded by Chinese, very rich Chinese but also ones with lower incomes. I know many of them and while they go back visiting family and take care of their businesses, nobody wants to go back permanently. Their kids go to North American universities and try to get jobs in government and big companies. The older Chinese are competing with other ethnic groups for scarce low-level government jobs like school janitors and you see Chinese who don’t speak English take jobs that require no English like cooks in senior’s homes. Now with the instability in Hong Kong, I estimate that another million or two million Hong Kong Chinese will move to Canada because the only requirement Chinese need to move to Canada is a beating heart. If your heart is still beating after two years you can apply for citizenship, which is automatically given if you show up and smile. I’m sure that China has made a lot of progress in many fields but nobody seems to want to live there. I would like Mr. Roberts to answer that one.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  108. d dan says:
    @FB

    “I usually don’t reply to obvious retards…but everything you squirted out your ass here is bullshit…”

    My “bullshit” is meant for other neutral viewers to read also, not just for your reply only. There are readers who can benefit from the exchange and other knowledgeable ones who can decide which comment is more fair.

    Anyway, thanks for your reply of further confirmation of your non-objectivity.

  109. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @FvS

    A lot of our politicians and law enforcement officers would get orgasmic over that video (not over the girl) but by the use of raw power that the Chinese police have.

  110. d dan says:
    @FB

    I don’t know why an innocuous comment that there is ALSO a CR929 design center in China would elicit such strong reaction from you. See:

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-09/23/content_32369893.htm
    or: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAIC_CR929

    Even your quote states that the design center is “headquartered in Russia”. It never contradicts the existence of another center in Shanghai. My understanding is that the design of fuselage and some electronic will be done in China. (Some tasks may have changed since.) Furthermore, it is only natural that China would want to have a design center since it is putting up lots of money. Neither did I hint on anything like “put China’s fledgling aviation industry on the same footing as the Russian aerospace industry…”, etc.

    BTW, Russia also is going big on 5G. Putin is inviting (OK, calm down first) Huawei to play major role in their projects.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  111. So much seems wrong with America that it’s hard to pinpoint where to start my complaints. At the top is as good a place as any. But, how do we do it? Our elections are rigged, and our opinions are guided by a totally corrupt media. To fix one you have to over come the other. The only way out of this mess is with a strong leader in charge. Where do we get one? Well, maybe he’s already here. That’s right. The Donald. He can start with making sure the military leaders, and police chiefs are with him and order nationalizing all media, the arrest of every House member, to be held until their loyalty and honesty are proven. Sounds terrible, but is it? What benefits are we gathering from the current programming? Not any that I can tell. Unless you believe that promoting war, emasculating men, and praising homosexuality is positive stuff and is your cup of tea. At the same time he must seize the FED, and end the system called fractional reserve banking. While all this is happening he must broadcast live from the WH and ensure the public what he is doing is a temporary thing, and encourage everyone to stay calm and continue working. I believe the people are ready for this insanity to end, and will support him 100%.
    This is a rich nation, and the people hold the keys.

  112. Ruprecht says:

    ” China dominates a global ranking of the most-cited research papers published in the 30 hottest technology fields.”

    Well, the author conveniently fails to mention the USA’s dominance in papers in such critical fields as Gender Studies, Black Studies, Women’s Studies, and Aboriginal Studies, not to mention Continental Europe’s complete domination in such critical fields as Marxist Interpretations of 14th Century Nordic Literature, or Gender-Fluidism in an Age of Consumerism.

    Clearly the author is a doomsayer…. teerheehee. It took a lot work to type this with a straight face.

    Yeah, we’re screwed.

  113. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    A lot of good truths there.

  114. Sean says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    China wants to be secure, but cannot become so without making Russia, America, India and even Europe insecure. They will react defensively and make China insecure again, and so it will spiral on with everyone getting more and more suspicious of the others intentions as things escalate. That is always the way.

  115. Ber says:
    @Si1ver1ock

    Can someone confirm that the CIA was set up by the Vatican?

  116. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @Flint Clint

    Ah! The joys of diversity!

  117. @GeeBee

    Thanks. I fiddled for a long time to shrink it to that. The Roman/Confucian divergence fascinates me (and dooms us, I suspect)

  118. @onebornfree

    Uh huh.

    1990. China’s economy has come to a halt. The Economist
    1996. China’s economy will face a hard landing. The Economist
    1998. China’s economy’s dangerous period of sluggish growth. The Economist
    1999. Likelihood of a hard landing for the Chinese economy. Bank of Canada
    2000. China currency move nails hard landing risk coffin. Chicago Tribune
    2001. A hard landing in China. Wilbanks, Smith & Thomas
    2002. China Seeks a Soft Economic Landing. Westchester University
    2003. Banking crisis imperils China. New York Times
    2004. The great fall of China? The Economist
    2005. The Risk of a Hard Landing in China. Nouriel Roubini
    2006. Can China Achieve a Soft Landing? International Economy
    2007. Can China avoid a hard landing? TIME
    2008. Hard Landing In China? Forbes
    2009. China’s hard landing. China must find a way to recover. Fortune
    2010: Hard landing coming in China. Nouriel Roubini
    2011: Chinese Hard Landing Closer Than You Think. Business Insider
    2012: Economic News from China: Hard Landing. American Interest 
    2013: A Hard Landing In China. Zero Hedge 
    2014. A hard landing in China. CNBC
    2015. Congratulations, You Got Yourself A Chinese Hard Landing. Forbes 
    2016. Hard landing looms for China. The Economist
    2017. Is China’s Economy Going To Crash? National Interest
    2018. China’s Coming Financial Meltdown. The Daily Reckoning.
    2019 China’s Economic Slowdown: How worried should we be? BBC

    • LOL: FB, Ron Unz
    • Troll: Tusk
    • Replies: @Rdm
    , @onebornfree
  119. Galan says:
    @FB

    very interesting and enlightening comment.

  120. @Jess

    The way this article describes it, most all Chinese are happy, prosperous and overall content with their government. I don’t claim to know what’s really going on there, having never been there or done any serious research. But based on what I have read informally, it’s hard to believe. That’s why we have The Unz Review.

    why didn’t we read anything about facial recognition and social credit scores? And whatever happened to that dissident, Ai Wei Wei? Mr. Ai, who was raised and educated in the most privileged circumstances is today a millionaire who jets back and forth between Germany and China.

    Face recognition and social credit scores are wildly popular in China, whose levels of interpersonal and governmental trust are incomparably higher than ours. (The second question a stranger will ask you there is, “How much do you make a year?”). In When China Rules the World, Martin Jacques explains their relationship to government better than I can:

    The reason the State enjoys a formidable legitimacy in the eyes of the Chinese has nothing to do with democracy but can be found in the relationship between the State and Chinese civilization. The State is seen as the embodiment, guardian and defender of Chinese civilization. Maintaining the unity, cohesion and integrity of the Chinese civilization-state is perceived as the highest political priority, the sacrosanct task of the Chinese State. Unlike in the West, where the State is viewed with varying degrees of suspicion, even hostility and regarded, as a consequence, as an outsider, in China the state is seen as an intimate, as part of the family, indeed as the head of the family.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  121. @Anonymous

    Those are Steve Hsu’s figures but I took the precaution of having another statistician check them and he said they’re fine. Here’s the original:

    ‘Assuming a normal distribution, there are only about 10,000 people in the US who perform at +4SD and a similar number in Europe, so this is quite a select population (roughly, the top few hundred high school seniors each year in the US). If you extrapolate the NE Asian numbers to the 1.3 billion population of China you get something like 300,000 individuals at this level, which is pretty overwhelming’. Asian-White IQ variance from PISA results

  122. @Ber

    I can authoritatively confirm that the CIA is the Vatican and the pope is on the Treasury payroll… where do you think your taxes go?

  123. @willem1

    From personal experience I can assure you that censorship is worse in the US than in China.

    Public cameras are more ubiquitous in the UK than in China.

    Informants are unnecessary if you monitor everyone’s communications 24×7, as we do in the US.

    Social credit is aimed primarily at making government officials and corporations more publicly accountable, and putting an end to deadbeats (because Chinese police refuse to act as debt collectors) and loutishness. 90% of Chinese like the idea but they won’t have to decide until 2021 when it will be rolled out.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  124. Say, why isn’t Turkmenistan participating in this alliance? Perhaps Mr. Derbyshire, currently (or, at least, recently) in China, and intimately familiar with the peccadillos of President Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow can illuminate the matter….

  125. @anonymous

    I’ve answered that one a dozen times, but here it is again: competition.

    Here’s one of those millions of Chinese emigrants explaining it in detail:

    It was the summer of 2000. I was 15, and I had just finished my high school entrance exam in China. I had made considerable improvements from where I started in first grade, when I had the second- worst grades in the class and had to sit at a desk perpendicular to the blackboard so that the teacher could keep a close eye on me. I had managed to become an average student in an average school. My parents by then had reached the conclusion that I was not going anywhere promising in China and were ready to send me abroad for high school. Contrary to all expectations, however, I got the best mark in my class and my school. The exam scores were so good that I ranked within the top ten among more than 100,000 students in the whole city. My teacher and I both assumed the score was wrong when we first heard it.
    As a consequence, I got into the best class in the best school in my city, and thus began the most painful year of my life. My newfound confidence was quickly crushed when I saw how talented my new classmates were. In the first class, our math teacher announced that she would start from chapter four of the textbook, as she assumed, correctly, that most of us were familiar with the first three chapters and would find it boring to go through them again. Most of the class had been participating in various competitions in middle school and had become familiar with a large part of the high school syllabus already. Furthermore, they had also grown to know each other from those years of competitions together. And here I was, someone who didn’t know anything or anyone, surrounded by people who knew more to begin with, who were much smarter, and who worked just as hard as I did. What chance did I have?
    During that year, I tried very hard to catch up: I gave up everything else and even moved somewhere close to the school to save time on the commute, but to no avail. Over time, going to school and competing while knowing I was sure to lose became torture. Yet I had to do it every day. At the end-of-year exam, I scored second from the bottom of the class—the same place where I began in first grade. But this time it was much harder to accept, after the glory I had enjoyed just one year earlier and the huge amount of effort I had put into studying this year. Finally, I threw in the towel, and asked my parents to send me abroad. Anywhere else on this earth would surely be better.
    So I came to the UK in 2001, when I was 16 years old. Much to my surprise, I found the UK’s exam-focused educational system very similar to the one in China. What is more, in both countries, going to the “right schools” and getting the “right job” are seen as very important by a large group of eager parents. As a result, scoring well on exams and doing well in school interviews—or even the play session for the nursery or pre-prep school—become the most important things in the world. Even at the university level, the undergraduate degree from the University of Cambridge depends on nothing else but an exam at the end of the last year.
    On the other hand, although the UK’s university system is considered superior to China’s, with a population that is only one-twentieth the size of my native country, competition, while tough, is less intimidating. For example, about one in ten applicants gets into Oxbridge in the UK, and Stanford and Harvard accept about one in twenty-five applicants. But in Hebei province in China, where I am from, only one in fifteen hundred applicants gets into Peking or Qinghua University.
    Still, I found it hard to believe how much easier everything became. I scored first nationwide in the GCSE (high school) math exam, and my photo was printed in a national newspaper. I was admitted into Trinity College, University of Cambridge, once the home of Sir Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon, and Prince Charles.
    I studied economics at Cambridge, a field which has become more and more mathematical since the 1970s. The goal is always to use a mathematical model to find a closed-form solution to a real-world problem. Looking back, I’m not sure why my professors were so focused on these models. I have since found that the mistake of blindly relying on models is quite widespread in both trading and investing—often with disastrous results, such as the infamous collapse of the hedge fund Long-Term Capital Management. Years later, I discovered the teaching of Warren Buffett: it is better to be approximately right than precisely wrong. But our professors taught us to think of the real world as a math problem.
    The culture of Cambridge followed the dogmas of the classroom: a fervent adherence to rules and models established by tradition. For example, at Cambridge, students are forbidden to walk on grass. This right is reserved for professors only. The only exception is for those who achieve first class honors in exams; they are allowed to walk on one area of grass on one day of the year.
    The behavior of my British classmates demonstrated an even greater herd mentality than what is often mocked in American MBAs. For example, out of the thirteen economists in my year at Trinity, twelve would go on to join investment banks, and five of us went to work for Goldman Sachs.
    Goldman Sachs and My Brilliant Inflation Trade
    Three years later, I graduated with first class honors and got a job offer from Goldman’s Fixed Income, Currency and Commodity division, the division founded by my hero Rubin. It seemed like whatever I wished would simply come true. But inside, I feared that one day these glories would pass. After all, not long ago, I was at the bottom of my class in China. And if I could not even catch up with my classmates in a city few people have even heard of, how am I now qualified to go to Cambridge University or Goldman? Have I gotten smarter? Or is it just that British people are stupider than the Chinese?
    With these mixed thoughts, I began working as a trader at Goldman in 2007. Goldman’s unofficial motto is “be long-term greedy.” I found that my Goldman colleagues were very smart and competitive. However, I actually didn’t see much of the “long-term” part of the “long-term greedy” culture. Goldman Sachs, even with its reputation as the top investment bank, has been involved in scandals in mortgage products, trades with the Greek government, its links with Malaysia’s corrupt 1MDB, and so on. Maybe this is due to the fact that Goldman is now a public company with a quarterly earnings call. Maybe it is because the position of the trading desk where I worked was marked to market in real time. When you see the number change in front of you from second to second—and especially when that number is not going in the right direction—even one day can feel like eternity. That tells you how long-term oriented traders are in general.
    My job at Goldman was a mixture of making markets to facilitate client trades and finding trades for the bank’s own book. In early 2009, I believed it was an excellent trade to go long UK inflation. In fact, I thought it was such a good trade that my biggest worry was that there wouldn’t be anyone who would want to be on the other side of it. Yet we managed to put this trade on versus a British bank. In the following year, the trade worked wonders, with UK inflation steadily rising, making the bank tens of millions in profits.
    I thought I was an amazing trader. But there was a slight problem: I wanted to do the trade because I thought the market was pricing UK interest rates to go up. And when interest rates go up, UK inflation would rise mechanically due to the way it is defined and calculated. But in that year, the Bank of England didn’t raise interest rates at all. Rather, the increase in inflation was due to things like tax increases, exchange rate fluctuations, oil price moves, etc.—things I didn’t anticipate at all. It was pure luck that I made money, and I made it for the wrong reason.
    When I was an intern, in one of the training presentations, a senior banker told us to distinguish between the process and the results. He said that we should focus on the process, which we can control, rather than the result, which is subject to luck. And here at Goldman, he said, we don’t punish people for losing money for the right reason. I have always loved asking questions, so I asked him, was anyone ever punished for making money for the wrong reason? After giving it some thought, he said that he had not heard of any such thing. And he was right. In fact, no one seemed to remember the reason I did the inflation trade at all. They only remembered that I did this trade and that it worked well.
    When I met with my manager for a performance review after this, I was expecting to be berated for my poor judgment. Instead, I got promoted! I told my manager that it was a mistake, but he merely said, “Puzhong, tell no one.” He too was promoted on the basis of managing my “brilliant” trade. In fact, my manager was so proud of my work he recommended me to Stanford’s prestigious Graduate School of Business (GSB), and I soon set off for America.
    One thing that I learned at Goldman was that, to rise through the ranks, it was not enough to just be a good trader. It was also essential to be able to manage one’s boss, other colleagues, and those who report to them. I never paid any attention to those things. I hoped to learn about them in business school.
    Coming to America
    To me, Costco represents the best of American capitalism. It is a corporation known for having its customers and employees in mind, while at the same time it has compensated its shareholders handsomely over the years. To the customers, it offers the best combination of quality and low cost. Whenever it manages to reduce costs, it passes the savings on to customers immediately. Achieving a 10 percent gross margin with prices below Amazon’s is truly incredible. After I had been there once, I found it hard to shop elsewhere.
    Meanwhile, its salaries are much higher than similar retail jobs. When the recession hit in 2008, the company increased salaries to help employees cope with the difficult environment. From the name tags the staff wear, I have seen that frontline employees work there for decades, something hard to imagine elsewhere.
    Stanford was for me a distant second to Costco in terms of the American capitalist experience. Overall, I enjoyed the curriculum at the GSB. Inevitably I found some classes less interesting, but the professors all seemed to be quite understanding, even when they saw me reading my kindle during class.
    One class was about strategy. It focused on how corporate mottos and logos could inspire employees. Many of the students had worked for nonprofits or health care or tech companies, all of which had mottos about changing the world, saving lives, saving the planet, etc. The professor seemed to like these mottos. I told him that at Goldman our motto was “be long-term greedy.” The professor couldn’t understand this motto or why it was inspiring. I explained to him that everyone else in the market was short-term greedy and, as a result, we took all their money. Since traders like money, this was inspiring. He asked if perhaps there was another motto or logo that my other classmates might connect with. I told him about the black swan I kept on my desk as a reminder that low probability events happen with high frequency. He didn’t like that motto either and decided to call on another student, who had worked at Pfizer. Their motto was “all people deserve to live healthy lives.” The professor thought this was much better. I didn’t understand how it would motivate employees, but this was exactly why I had come to Stanford: to learn the key lessons of interpersonal communication and leadership.
    On the communication and leadership front, I came to the GSB knowing I was not good and hoped to get better. My favorite class was called “Interpersonal Dynamics” or, as students referred to it, “Touchy Feely.” In “Touchy Feely,” students get very candid feedback on how their words and actions affect others in a small group that meets several hours per week for a whole quarter.
    We talked about microaggressions and feelings and empathy and listening. Sometimes in class the professor would say things to me like “Puzhong, when Mary said that, I could see you were really feeling something,” or “Puzhong, I could see in your eyes that Peter’s story affected you.” And I would tell them I didn’t feel anything. I was quite confused.
    One of the papers we studied mentioned that subjects are often not conscious of their own feelings when fully immersed in a situation. But body indicators such as heart rate would show whether the person is experiencing strong emotions. I thought that I generally didn’t have a lot of emotions and decided that this might be a good way for me to discover my hidden emotions that the professor kept asking about.
    So I bought a heart rate monitor and checked my resting heart rate. Right around 78. And when the professor said to me in class “Puzhong, I can see that story brought up some emotions in you,” I rolled up my sleeve and checked my heart rate. It was about 77. And so I said, “nope, no emotion.” The experiment seemed to confirm my prior belief: my heart rate hardly moved, even when I was criticized, though it did jump when I became excited or laughed.
    This didn’t land well on some of my classmates. They felt I was not treating these matters with the seriousness that they deserved. The professor was very angry. My takeaway was that my interpersonal skills were so bad that I could easily offend people unintentionally, so I concluded that after graduation I should do something that involved as little human interaction as possible.
    Therefore, I decided I needed to return to work in financial markets rather than attempting something else. I went to the career service office and told them that my primary goal after the MBA was to make money. I told them that $500,000 sounded like a good number. They were very confused, though, as they said their goal was to help me find my passion and my calling. I told them that my calling was to make money for my family. They were trying to be helpful, but in my case, their advice didn’t turn out to be very helpful.
    Eventually I was able to meet the chief financial officer of my favorite company, Costco. He told me that they don’t hire any MBAs. Everyone starts by pushing trolleys. (I have seriously thought about doing just that. But my wife is strongly against it.) Maybe, I thought, that is why the company is so successful—no MBAs!
    An Uncertain World
    In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be. A few years ago, I was reading an autobiography of a Chinese girl named Nian, who went to study in the UK when she was young. (Someone once said that it is necessary to know English in order to learn about China. Important perspectives on China are only available in English and are generally not accessible on the mainland.) She studied at the London School of Economics and met her husband. After graduation, Nian, her husband, and all their friends went back to China.
    Her life, up to that point, was very similar to the life that I have been living. And I am sure that, at the time, she was as optimistic about her life as we are today about ours. But she went to the UK in 1935, and she went back to China around the founding of the People’s Republic of China. Her education abroad, in a capitalist country, and her belief in individual rights and freedom often placed her on the wrong side of various political campaigns and the Cultural Revolution. She lost numerous friends and family members, including her husband and daughter during these years. She barely survived a long period of imprisonment herself. It was not until the 1980s when she managed to get a passport and could move to live with her relatives abroad. On the ship to Hong Kong, she kept thinking about her decision to return to China all those years ago.
    As I finished her story, I kept thinking about the similarities and differences between Nian’s life and my own. What would have happened to her if she was living in the present time, or what would happen to me if I had been born seventy years earlier? What I realized is that if we look at one individual’s life in isolation, it is very tempting to come to the conclusion that one’s particular actions lead to whatever happens next. But if we look at the society as a whole or look across generations, we can see that people with very similar backgrounds can take similar actions and end up with vastly different results.
    Warren Buffett has said that the moment one was born in the United States or another Western country, that person has essentially won a lottery. If someone is born a U.S. citizen, he or she enjoys a huge advantage in almost every aspect of life, including expected wealth, education, health care, environment, safety, etc., when compared to someone born in developing countries. For someone foreign to “purchase” these privileges, the price tag at the moment is $1 million dollars (the rough value of the EB-5 investment visa). Even at this price level, the demand from certain countries routinely exceeds the annual allocated quota, resulting in long waiting times. In that sense, American citizens were born millionaires!
    Yet one wonders how long such luck will last. This brings me back to the title of Rubin’s book, his “uncertain world.” In such a world, the vast majority things are outside our control, determined by God or luck. After we have given our best and once the final card is drawn, we should neither become too excited by what we have achieved nor too depressed by what we failed to achieve. We should simply acknowledge the result and move on. Maybe this is the key to a happy life.
    On the other hand, it seems odd that this should be the principal lesson of a Western education. In Communist China, I was taught that hard work would bring success. In the land of the American dream, I learned that success comes through good luck, the right slogans, and monitoring your own—and others’—emotions.
    The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective
    By Puzhong Yao. American Affairs.
    https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/11/western-elite-chinese-perspective/
    This article originally appeared in American Affairs Volume I, Number 4 (Winter 2017): 77–86.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  126. melpol says:

    Open US borders for Asian women will lower Chinese birthrate and contribute to US sexual pleasures.
    Caucasian women in the US will become better partners because of the competition. Millions of half breed Asians will be born because of open borders and boost US IQ levels. Its win-win for Asian women and US men.

  127. Rdm says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    For the last 30 years, even if Western countries broke itself by funding those journalists and propping up the MSM mouthpiece, they will do so.

    Of course, once the juice runs out, they borrow from the said country, China.

  128. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @John Arthur

    The median age for Han Chinese is also higher than the Chinese national average, and in any case a median age of 36 is severely aged. China’s fertility has been below repplacement since the 1980s; white Americans actually had a small baby boom in the 1990s.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  129. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @John Arthur

    Also, China’s workforce is not significantly younger than the USA’s, you pipe smoking freak.

  130. Anon[147] • Disclaimer says:
    @Flint Clint

    Indian scam artists are now building their crappy buildings that collapse in America. In India, brand new bridges, highways and buildings routinely collapse. A brand new terminal at the New Delhi airport leaked like crazy at the first monsoon rain, short circuiting all the electrical system. A few years back The Economist actually had an article praising this Indian ingenuity a.k.a. corner cutting. It’s called “Jugaad”, i.e. why put in 5 screws when 3 would do? I guess America is now the lucky recipient of this Indian ingenuity.

    Diversity – the gift that keeps on giving.

  131. Erebus says:
    @Goddard

    A return to isolationism is in order. Americans should be less concerned about orchestrating world affairs and more concerned about preserving their way of life.

    A return to isolationism may be inevitable, and will probably result in an overshoot, but after that what America ultimately needs to do is become a normal great power. That’s what the world, and perhaps especially the other two great powers want.

    For that to happen, the American people must wrest control from that fraction of their rulers that are hell bent on using America’s Island Continent as a springboard to Global Hegemony. From what I can ascertain, the American people aren’t all that interested in world affairs, much less orchestrating them and are very much interested in their way of life. What they are only now starting to dawn on then that their rulers couldn’t care less about America and its people beyond their utility as a springboard. That is why Americans will soon be coming face to face with an existential question.

    Unfortunately, they remain by ‘n large oblivious to the Either/Or now looming in front of them, much less what it’ll take to swing the current vectors and trajectories away from Hegemony and towards their own well-being. Even as a sense of impending disaster looms, they’re apparently in denial. Every American I talk to is absolutely convinced that America will somehow muddle through its crises. Not a statistically important sample, but still disheartening.

    Historically, it’s…
    “Not through speeches and majority decisions will the great questions of the day be decided – but by blood and iron.” (Bismarck)

    Bismarck knew a thing or two about great questions. They, like those facing America, when left to solve themselves inevitably devolve into smaller ones – how much blood, and whose?

    • Replies: @Goddard
  132. MEFOBILLS says:
    @onebornfree

    China has state banks, and they issue their new bank credit into productivity channels. Even the ghost cities were a way of front loading the economy with Yuans to then kick start production. Later the cities were infrastructure already in place and ready to be occupied by farmers moving in from the countryside.

    This sovereign “path” Chinese money takes, leaves behind improved infrastructure and productivity. The U.S. path is into finance paper called assets, which then makes usurious demands on the real economy.

    In fact, it was American’s who invented China’s type of economy, specifically Henry Carey – and it was implemented post civil war by Peshine Smith and Henry Clay.

    America even created new economic programs administered in agricultural colleges, in order to bypass the standard economic (and wrong) English/Jewish style econ curriculum in mainline colleges.

    One worry is that China sends students to the U.S. to learn neo-liberal economics, and that could poison China’s ascent. One born is not free, and is steeped in false lolbertarian doctrine, which assumes that all debt is bad.

    Debt can be good if it is administered by high IQ people, who know what they are doing. For example, if Russia and China mutually issue new debt instruments to each other, then simultaneously each has Rubbles and Yuans. Russia has new Yuans, and China has new Rubles, and they commence to trade. When you have State banks, the debt instrument is located in said bank, and hence it can be jubileed if/when said debt begins to make unnatural exponential demands. In finance capitalism, the debt instrument is created by private corporate banks, and on-sold into markets, to be held by privateer bond-holders. This is a form of slavery, a sophisticated (((construct))) evolved over time, and has an accompanying religion and secret societies. This construct has the west in a death grip, and most westerners are gas-lighted with false thinking. China is a good reminder of reality for those who have eyes that see.

    The real problem with America is that the (((parasite))) infested, and this parasite issues hypnosis to allow the takings of rents and usury. If a host is healthy, it can shake off the parasite; a unhealthy host will succumb.

    If you have a country that is ruled by rulers who look like the public, and who have the public interest at heart, then bad things will tend to not happen. Bad ideology has seized the minds of Chinese in the past, so they are not immune. But, China is lucky they are not immigrating hostile in- groups intent on taking rents for themselves at the expense of others.

    Plutocrats KNOW in their heart of hearts, that they have stolen from the public, or stolen from the mouth of labor, and they then seek out religions or advocate to change laws to feather bed, and give sanction to their thefts. The deep state is a good example of this in action, whereby said deep state wanted Hillary in power to provide cover for them.

    In the west, democracy is a failed system, whereby monied individuals maneuver the polity to their in-group or self interest.

    No doubt, there are some bent individuals in Chinese government who get away with thefts, but for the most part they are found out and executed, or jailed.

    China has an industrial capitalist economy, with sovereign money. This type of system can not be beat. It will always out-perform finance capitalism, which is extractive and usurious. There are different kinds of Capitalism, and finance capital is the worst type.

    The U.S. adopted Zionist finance capitalism in full after WW2. WW2 was a bitter harvest, as finance capitalism won. China kept their state banks after Tienanmen square incident, a lucky turn of affairs for them.

  133. Biff says:
    @Chris Mallory

    A 1000% tariff on all Chinese goods imported to the US would be a good start. Cripple the Chinese ability to export goods to the US.

    At 5% of the worlds population, and an ocean away, do you think China is going to be worried about the american market?

    • Replies: @Escher
  134. MEFOBILLS says:
    @MEFOBILLS

    Correction: Clay influenced Carey.

  135. PSBindy says: • Website
    @follyofwar

    UBI is a shiny distraction for the Antifa/BLM level disruptors. When it comes down to maintaining several hundred million ‘usless mouths’ the spigot will be shut and the ovens, or a more modern/efficient method will process the redundant.

    The onion skin thin layer of uber elites have no need or tolerance for billions of humans of any ethnic description.

  136. FB says: • Website
    @MEFOBILLS

    That’s a great comment about our sad state of finance capitalism and rule by financial parasites…you have explained the mechanism quite well.

    I would only add that China’s success is essentially SOCIALIST since socialism requires the government in control of the money…and also the major means of production…which are to be run for the people’s benefit, not for plutocrats.

    Seventy percent of China’s economy is in state hands, and that’s a good balance they have achieved by fine tuning the socialist system.

    The ‘capitalism’ part is mostly at street level mom and pop shops, which is great because it gives people an opportunity to have their own business if they are inclined to that type of occupation.

    Yes there are some very large private enterprises [very few as a proportion of the national economy], but they are not allowed to assume the political powers of a plutocracy.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  137. @FB

    Consider for instance that Russia is now going to help China establish its own early-warning system for the launch of ballistic missiles…this technology is possessed only by the US and Russia and involves both space-based sensors and ground radars…

    So? China has some of the world’s most powerful supercomputers. Now Russia gets access to unprecedented computational power for their early warning system by cooperating with China: win-win.

    China is still not able to produce good jet engines…the Russian civil aviation sector, despite being crushed by the implosion of the Soviet Union still has the capability to make world class engines avionics etc…the Russian narrow-body MC21 already has Russian PD14 engines…

    The domestic avionics are ready and so is the domestic carbon fiber production for aircraft wings and other airframe structures…within two or three years Russian content in their new civil aircraft will be 97 percent…making US sanctions meaningless in terms of sales to countries like Iran and others…

    There are only a handful of engine and avionics companies in the world that can produce aviation engines and avionics that are competitive on the international market. Just like China, Russia can neither produce commercially competitive airliners nor avionics and engines for the international market at the moment.

    The new wide-body CRAIC 929 wide body airliner that is now in development is a 50 50 joint venture between China and Russia…but crucially the main design center is in Moscow, while the assembly will be in China…this is a good analogy for the overall state of China’s technical capability…it’s great at production, but still second tier in the brain power…

    Everything is done on computer and through internet nowadays, where the design center located physically is not as important as it seems.

    We saw also for the first time China’s DF17 hypersonic glide weapon…but this has much shorter range than the Russian Avangard, which is truly intercontinental…the DF17 only has a fraction of that range…the two cannot be compared…

    Nobody knows how Avangard looks like. It’s just vaporware so far, unlike DF-17. How many years do you think the Chinese will need to develop a long range HGV now that they already have one with an intermediate range?

    China may be launching satellites at a good clip, but they bought from the Russians the technology for manned space flight, including the Soyuz spacecraft technology, life support systems, space suits etc…China has put a man in space only because of this technology transfer…

    Let’s wait and see who will put a man on the moon next.

    Also Mr Roberts keeps on harping about the non-existent quantum technology which is still years away…I have covered this topic in depth already in another thread…there are still so many obstacles to be overcome, that in the end it may amount to nothing…

    China is building ultra-secure (probably unbreakable) quantum communication networks. You just do not know better.

    I won’t even mention ‘AI’ which is a joke…there can be no real ‘artificial intelligence’…we don’t have any clue in fact how human or other animal intelligence even works…which is also why IQ is a ridiculous notion that has been perverted from its original idea of simply identifying people who are retarded…

    Just because you do not have a clue personally does not mean it’s a joke.

    China has made a lot of progress in its scientific and technical capability, and at some point it will be on a par with Russia [the US seems to have reached its peak several decades ago and is now on a downhill trajectory]…

    You do not have the slightest idea about what you are talking about. On par with Russia? Are you serious?

    The other thing I have a beef with is this 5G technology in general…these very high frequency radio signals beaming at us ubiquitously every few feet could have very serious consequences for the human body and brain…electromagnetic radiation is already a problem…

    What problem? Why don’t you do a little research yourself before spewing nonsense?

    • Replies: @FB
  138. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Thank you for this excellent overview. I was mentioning to my wife that China could arrive to a point where it doesn’t really need the rest of the world, if it comes to it, or at least the West, which may be soon. They could develop on their own terms, and trade if they wish. However, my concern would be that China would probably fall back into its great cycle, as mentioned below, without the competitive impetus to continue to improve the country and people’s lives relative to ‘the others.’ Hopefully competing on less resource-intensive stuff as we don’t need another USA consumerist pigsty.

    I agree with you and Jacques to an extent. I haven’t met a happy Chinese with regard to their govt, but they are content with it as long as it doesn’t get involved in their lives, and they are content with leaving the govt to govern. They do rely on it for resolving trouble, and there seems a greater level of respect for the govt to work on improving their country, far higher than how we regard ours in Tokyo or near infinitely higher than for DC. However, tis far from being a part, let alone head, of the family.

    Having been in both places numerous times, my mainlander wife found that Taiwanese represent Chinese culture while PRC represents something like post-Chinese culture. In our first visit there at a book store, she was shocked by the range of ideas and subjects on offer. The only concrete difference she mentioned was that they have a respect for the past, both good and bad. Some things about custom, as well.

    Things have become considerably professional ever since the old guard has died off and replaced by those outstanding graduates from sophisticated schools. However, China’s always suffered from the great cycle of founding, purging, prosperity, corruption, invasion/civil war, and collapse, broadly speaking, and not always in that order ofc. In this regard the current govt is doing a good job in keeping stability and ostensibly, at least, reducing overt corruption (not like any could find a govt free of it anyways). I also view the social credit system as part of enforcing better behavior, and suppressing plausible threats to govt. I tend to believe there is a strong effort to convert Uyghurs by force (for the incorrigible/radical) and development (for the rest) as long as they are a plausible source of instability, just as improving the rest of inner China is a priority.

    Regarding finances, one could also mention that the PBoC is foundationally different from most other central banks. Also, while the US is in ridiculous red, China also has its massive unperforming debt issue, the need to maintain property prices, tame shadow banking, and other issues to contend with. The predictions of China’s imminent demise is rather ludicrous considering the system they have.

    PS Thanks for the response elsewhere but I didn’t have the ‘replied to my comment’ ticked so I didn’t notice. Sorry!

  139. Whitewolf says:
    @Anon

    If the US is full of Chinese and Indians plus half of Africa then what difference does it make if it can or can’t compete with China? At that point it has already been colonized.

  140. @Poco

    Thanks for the heads up, Poco. It appears that a few weeks ago a new writer was assigned to the “Sean” handle as the writing style changed radically. The “old Sean” was clearly young and stupid and out of his depth here, so he was replaced by an older more experienced writer.

    • Agree: Poco
  141. @Godfree Roberts

    What will they “decide” in 2021? It sounds as though what they can then decide is whether they choose to say theu are pleased about something that others have decided they will enjoybor be subjected to without their having any say in it.

  142. @Achmed E. Newman

    What is the “200 large”? And can you expand on Godfree Roberts’s provenanc? Two Communist parents might or not be worth following up. I had three aunts who were Communists which happily didn’t infect my parents 🙂

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  143. Half-Jap says:

    Infrastructure: New highways, railways, subways and ports and, next year, the fastest, most advanced Internet and entire cities built around 5G.

    Certainly can’t be so bright if they’re actually going to deploy 5G towers, if they haven’t bothered doing a little research to find volumes of concerning research even from the days of the first gen. wireless tech. I wonder how they’ll feel about being microwaved way ahead of the rest of us. Hopefully I can get a booklet published here on this.

    Here’s a handy website to some research papers, filed with the FCC.
    https://www.saferemr.com/2014/08/why-we-need-stronger-cell-phone_43.html

  144. Sean says:

    According to a recent article by Professor Simms, “China — one of the most protectionist economies in the world — is now celebrated at Davos as the avatar of free trade … an apparent poster boy of political stability and governability. […] By the time the easily diverted West finds itself in open conflict with Beijing, we will have lost our relative advantage.”

  145. Escher says:
    @Biff

    No matter what the long term trajectory, right now America is China’s #1 market, and that does give Trump some leverage.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  146. zogborg [AKA "mousie dung"] says:

    The Han Chinese are one of the biggest useless eaters on the planet. I advocate genocide of Han Chinese, preferably by bioweapons targeting their food supply, much less messier than nuking them. The world doesn’t need these ugly, soulless, greedy insectoid people who do nothing but pollute the atmosphere of Western countries they emigrate to.

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @denk
  147. @Wizard of Oz

    The decide everything by consensus. Isn’t that the smart, cheap way to run things?

    In 2021 they’ll start working on getting their GINI coefficient below Finland’s, just as Deng promised they would: some got rich first, now the others are catching up.

  148. @Sam Coulton

    What are you talking about? Han Chinese are 91.5% of the population and are a probably higher share of the workforce. It’s not like the Hmong are working in great numbers. If you think that China will let the lower IQ Hmong and other mass reproduce faster than the Han, and have significantly lower median ages- then you are delusional.
    There’s quite a difference between a median age of 46 for US whites and 36 for Han China.
    Even if we contest your silly claim to be true, then the US is still competing with a country with 5x their workforce while dealing with internal substantially sized Black population, who are even more dysfunctional compared to their brethren in Africa.
    My argument is that in order for China to have a larger economy than US, all they need is 1/5th the productivity of the avg US worker- and not even the average White worker- which is much, much higher than just avg US worker productivity. And while China has much more favorable demographic headwinds(Can you imagine if China’s population was 13% black-170 million Blacks?!)
    So I highly doubt that China is particulary well run, since every other high IQ country reached this milestone decades ago, many of which had even worse demographic situations than China

    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Sam Coulton
  149. @FB

    The FIRST successful passenger jet in the world was the Tupolev 104, which entered service in 1956…and was the ONLY passenger jet flying in the world until 1958…when the Boeing 707 was introduced…

    I know you want to get your pro-Russia digs in here, while your opposing Comm-in-tards want to get their pro-China bits. However, this paragraph, whether purposely or not, is disingenuous in 2 ways:

    1) I know about the De Havilland Comet, and was sure it was built very soon after WWII. I just checked. It first flew passengers in May of 1952, four years before the Tupolev 104. After the series of accidents of 2 types, the takeoff-rotation problems, and the structural failures at altitude, the type was taken out of service in 1956. That’s where the line, from your very wiki link comes from, about the Tupolev being the ONLY passenger jet flying in the world between 1956 and 1958. The Comet 4s and 4Bs flew again by 1958, but the Douglas DC-8 and Boeing 707 made them commerically obsolete by that time.

    I figure that your error could just be bad reading comprehension, but than, as a follower of aerospace history and engineer(?), you should be the one to know that the story of the Comet is the BIGGEST story of the science/technology of stress concentration/metal fatigue/fracture mechanics that there ever was.*

    2) The Comet had its problems and was taken out of service in 1956. (Some still flew, but I believe that was the end for the airlines’ use of it.) Your 2nd mistake is this “FIRST successful” part. Though the Comet could not be called a success, I don’t think that T-104 could be called that either, with 16 of 96 aircraft lost – that’s 1/6 of the fleet! Maybe in the old USSR, that WAS considered successful, after all, who was gonna complain? I can’t get a good number on how many Comets were flown in commercial service, just that 114 were built, including prototypes. There were 26 hull-loss accidents, even worse than that Tupolev (maybe 25% after subtraction out 10 or a dozen prototypes), but neither could be called “successful”.

    Here, from your link – right at the top:

    The Tupolev Tu-104 (NATO reporting name: Camel) was a twinjet medium-range narrow-body turbojet-powered Soviet airliner. It was the second to enter in regular service, behind the British de Havilland Comet, and was the only jetliner operating in the world from 1956 to 1958, when the British jetliner was grounded due to safety matters.[1]

    * BTW, I was very surprised to learn of how thoroughly the fuselage of this plane WAS TESTED, using water pressure over 10’s of thousands of cycles, during the development of this bird. However, there was, tragically, more to be learned.

    • Replies: @FB
  150. Goddard says:
    @Erebus

    Every American I talk to is absolutely convinced that America will somehow muddle through its crises.

    This attitude is less the classic American can-do optimism and more the bury-one’s-head-in-the-sand, it-can’t-happen-to-me entitlement mentality born of decades of luxury.

    Americans are courting Nemesis. The fatuities Americans have come to believe may well one day be drowned in blood. Instead of a Normative White country proud of its Western traditions, we’ll have roving White Supremacist warlords performing summary executions on the last few unrepentant leftists.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  151. @FB

    Now, before your BP hits 200 mmHg (just the diastolic!), think how you want to reply, FB. I don’t expect “thanks for the correction”, as that’d be a bridge comment too far for you. However, is it really necessary to go dig up some humorous insulting cartoon off the web to embed, and than follow it with all the internet-tough-guy “gonna shit down your neck…” stuff?

    Just calm down, take two of your various types of medication, and write me in your morning. Serenity Now, FB!

  152. @John Arthur

    By the way, all of this is assuming that your claim about the workforces between Whites and Han Chinese is true, and assuming that other non-Whites/non-Blacks aren’t a drain on productivity of Whites like Africans are. I don’t think they are, but I assume that many of the readers on this website would agree with the above statement.
    So China’s advantages are as summed:
    1. 5 times the workforce of the US, with most of that workforce being 90+% Han, who have an IQ around 105
    2. 13% of the US population, and a equal % of the workforce are African Americans, some of the most dysfunctional people on the planet, and monumentally large crime rates and fundamentally weak persistant earnings. In addition, Blacks as well as other non-Whites are significantly younger than Whites, who have a median age in their late 40s.
    3. Whites, who have a comparable IQ to Han Chinese(still a measured 4-5ish point gap in favor of Han), are significantly older as their median age is the late 40s, compared to the Han Chinese median age of around 36 years. Younger workforces tend to produce the innovations that push GDP-per-Capita forward
    4. This is assuming that other non-White groups have other assorted costs in crime and dysfunctionalism that Whites have to pay for(though I personally don’t really believe this), but I’m sure many of you do.
    So if China’s workers had the productivity of the average US worker, then its economy would be 21.345(US’s economy)*5= $106.725 trillion dollars
    Since the productivity of the average White worker is much higher than the productivity of the average US worker(Whites are only 60% of America), then we can assume an even larger Chinese economy. I wouldn’t be suprised if that was an economy of $130+ Trillion Dollars. China’s PPP of $28 Trillion is paltry compared to that, and its slowdown is already occuring.
    This isn’t even taking into consideration Net Wealth, which all private sector banks estimate at being around $100 trillion in American and around $50 Trillion in China.
    https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us/en/reports-research/global-wealth-report.html
    So China is underperforming even worse in that respect, not even being bigger than America. China should have a Net Wealth of $500 trillion if it matched average US wealth, and even higher if it matched per-capita white Net Wealth in USA.
    So I am very skeptical that China is exceptionally governed, but think demographically it is exceptionally lucky. If China was as economically adept as the US on a per-capita Basis, it would be a bigger economy than the entire world combined today.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  153. klc tan says:
    @onebornfree

    Hahaha. You displayed the link to the Guardian article : ‘ Chinese footage revealed blindfolded and

    shackled prisoners. Who are you and the Guardian trying to deceive. These are not Chinese police or

    security forces. The word ” SWAT ” is clearly displayed on their backs. Chinese do m=not use english

    words on their uniforms. It would be forbidden.

    As for organ harvesting it has been proven to be a fakenews lie created by the banned FahLun Gong

    cult. https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harvesting-cult-falun-gong/

  154. Mj says:
    @AaronB

    Precisely which nations, in your view, possess this first-rate brain power?

  155. Sam J. says:
    @Goddard

    Excellent comment. I agree as an American. We don’t have to trade with China at all and if they continue Mercantilism against us we shouldn’t.

    Those that say they hate Americans and want the Chinese to be the new hegemons, HAHAHHAHAHHAA are you going to be fucked. Be careful what you wish for.

  156. Sam J. says:
    @Bombercommand

    “…The Nose has been building its ties to China by providing China with United States developed military technology for decades…”

    Sigh so true and we know it and still do nothing about it.

    This is why the only way to deal with the Jews is to get rid of them. Move them completely out of your territory. This has been tried and has been proven a super satisfactorily 100% guaranteed boost for the residents of any country that have tried it.

    The effect of Jews moving into your territory is exactly the same as a tribe of psychopaths moving in. I’m not saying all Jews are psychopaths but the effect is the same as psychopaths moving in.

    The Jews must go. Peacefully if we can get it but by any mean necessary they must. Let them move to China it would give me great pleasure to see them try t tell the Chinese how they should run their affairs and how they need Jews to run their banking system.).

  157. @Poco

    Took me overnight to realize what you meant. I wasn’t implying that “Sean” and ” The Dark Night” are the same person, they are clearly two different writers, but both are part of the same hasbara office. I didnt get that dark night and sagggi are the same, but it seems Mr Unz caught that as well.

  158. @Wizard of Oz

    WoO: I am going by Mr. Roberts’ words on his own website, as to who his parents were. No, sometimes it skips a generation, haha!

    As for “D.B. Cooper”, it’s kind of a cultural thing that I was waiting for this commenter to answer me on. If he gets my reference, then he could possibly be an American, as the handle suggests, but if not, it is probably more like I suspect, that he is one of these Chinese commenters that doesn’t know squat.

  159. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    “But there shall be poor always.” Such is the law of nature. Goal of China is to break it?
    Price’s Law, as observed: “50% of the work is done by the square root of the total number of people who participate in the work.” And from the older parables of Jesus, no doubt originally babylonian”
    For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
    — Matthew 25:29, RSV.

    I tell you, that to every one who has will more be given; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
    — Luke 19:26, RSV.

    Such has been, and shall be, although utopian ideologies always try to break free of this while leaving quite a lot of dead bodies along the way. Ehem….metaphorically. Whatever Mao said is right….

  160. FB says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Hey MORON…

    Maybe you should learn to read…before blowing massive streams of diarrhea out your lardass…

    The FIRST successful passenger jet in the world was the Tupolev 104

    The de Havilland was NOT the first SUCCESSFUL passenger jet…

    …within a year of entering airline service, problems started to emerge, with three Comets lost within twelve months in highly publicised accidents, after suffering catastrophic in-flight break-ups.

    I suppose in your mushroom eating fantasy world, that’s a SUCCESSFUL FUCKING AIRPLANE…

    Btw…the fact that you were full of shit on that 737 MAX debate back in the spring [and visibly proven to be full of shit] doesn’t seem to stop you now from blowing even more diarrhea out your nose…

    We recall how you [a clown who has never had a jet type rating of any sort, nor any kind of military or commercial aviation background] was trying to argue with me about how those Ethiopian pilots were at fault…

    Tell you what asshat…why don’t you go and tell Captain Sully Sullenberger how wrong he is…

    In “What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 MAX?” William Langewiesche draws the conclusion that the pilots are primarily to blame for the fatal crashes of Lion Air 610 and Ethiopian 302.

    In resurrecting this age-old aviation canard, Langewiesche minimizes the fatal design flaws and certification failures that precipitated those tragedies, and still pose a threat to the flying public.

    I have long stated, as he does note, that pilots must be capable of absolute mastery of the aircraft and the situation at all times, a concept pilots call airmanship. Inadequate pilot training and insufficient pilot experience are problems worldwide, but they do not excuse the fatally flawed design of the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) that was a death trap.

    As one of the few pilots who have lived to tell about being in the left seat of an airliner when things went horribly wrong, with seconds to react, I know a thing or two about overcoming an unimagined crisis.

    I am also one of the few who have flown a Boeing 737 MAX Level D full motion simulator, replicating both accident flights multiple times. I know firsthand the challenges the pilots on the doomed accident flights faced, and how wrong it is to blame them for not being able to compensate for such a pernicious and deadly design.

    Letter Published By New York Times Magazine on October 13, 2019

    There is a ‘contact’ page on Sully’s blog…why don’t you go there and set him straight…?

    What a fucking clown…

    There’s also a ‘contact’ page on my own blog…

    Why don’t you stop on by and give me some pointers about ‘aeronautical engineering’…?

    You’ll note that my technical analysis of the Houthi cruise missile has been joined by MIT physics professor Ted Postol and has been picked up by media as here…

    As for the capabilities of the Yemeni Quds-1 cruise missile, here is a superb technical analysis, which comes with a crucial insight in view of the UK, German and French claims that Iran is behind the Saudi oil attacks:

    “Notably, the Pentagon has not accused Iran of the strike and is keeping quiet, knowing full well that the Quds cruise missile came from Houthi territory.

    Why don’t you come on over and straighten out Prof Postol and myself who are putting together a paper for a prestigious journal…?

    Maybe you can critique my thermodynamic cycle analysis on the missile jet engine…?

    You’re a fucking joke in every possible sense of the word…an crotchety old goofball in late-stage dementia who sits all day on this forum blowing massive amounts of bullshit that nobody cares about…get the fuck real…

  161. @FB

    17% hull losses in crashes is not a successful aircraft type, unless you are a skydiver who “doesn’t do landings”. That was my point, “aero engineer” FB.

    Secondly, you seem to have deliberately left out wording from the very Wiki page you linked to on the bit between 1956 and 1958. The Comet had flown BEFORE that time.

    Do you remember, FB, the formula for hoop stress in a thin-walled pressure vessel? It’s in my head: σ = Pr/t. Besides that being important in aircraft design, keep that in mind as your blood pressure hits the low 200’s. The walls are not very thick on the vessels in your brain. As the people on the internet always say: DO THE MATH!

  162. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Biff

    If you want an example of how it works, just get on the phone with one of America’s lovely corporations, or government institution, and try to make contact with a real person, and then try to make contact with a real person on the same continent as you, and then try to get them to make a real decision.

    Yes. Winston Churchill maintained that to get something done, “go to the top.” In the innocence of my now long past youth, I adopted that rule and found it worked.

    I had the Vice-President for Public Relations of Canadian Pacific corporation resolve a billing issue for me, I had a Vice-President of Canada Post Corporation handle a screw-up over a magazine mailing for me, and I had a friendly e-mail response from Sergey Bryn about Google cashing my Web pages. And I have even had helpful and friendly service from politicians and their senior staff.

    But now, if an organization’s Web site doesn’t work for you, you’re likely in trouble. It should be said, though that, to their credit, Fed Ex, among others one hopes, now has a Web site that enables rapid access to an actual competent and pleasant spoken person, so perhaps the tide is turning once again. This is a trend to be encouraged. We should all strive to punish companies that fail to provide decent service by refusing them further business.

  163. MEFOBILLS says:
    @FB

    FB,

    Thanks and good comment.

    The 70% number is interesting, but certain iron rules of economics apply and cannot be abrogated:

    Seventy percent of China’s economy is in state hands, and that’s a good balance they have achieved by fine tuning the socialist system.

    A proper mixed economy has inelastic sectors REGULATED or OWNED by the government.

    Inelastic sectors do NOT have ready competition and hence are not price elastic. Government in these sectors drives prices DOWN, to then give people economic freedom.

    I know the above comment drives lolbertarians and free-dumb lovers nuts, because it gives lie to everything they hold dear. I didn’t invent reality, only observe.

    So, we can debate the 70% number, where the optimum point is I don’t know. Elastic sectors have ready competition and hence prices are driven low by competition mechanism. However, even elastic sectors have predators. For example, the melamine baby formula disaster in China was in an elastic pricing sector, yet some people still tried to take rents by cheating and lying.

    All successful economies in modern history are mixed, and that implies socialism. Government must be involved in inelastic market sectors.

    Ronald Reagan was ignorant when he said government is the problem. Improperly formed government run by predators or plutocrats is the problem.

    Hungary had a constitutional kingdom that lasted nearly 1000 years, so proper governments can come in many forms. China has a system that suits them, and PROPERLY uses mixed economy methods with sovereign money.

    Sorry about shouting with caps, it is for others not you FB. In an age of mass deception, speaking truth sometimes needs to be shouted.

    • Agree: FB
  164. @FB

    Yes, I’ve got type ratings, but no military background. I did read some of your analysis on the missile strikes, and have no problem with what I’d read. You seem to have a handle on the industry, but I’m still not sure you’re any kind of engineer. I haven’t done thermo in many years, so I won’t try to critique you. It’s not something I couldn’t get back into, but the mechanics is my area.

    Good luck on your papers. I was glad to correct you on this issue of which commercial airliner flew first, and, as I wrote, didn’t expect a thanks.

    You had told us you were a test pilot, FB, and that is now far, far beyond belief. No AME in his right mind would sign off a medical certificate for someone with your mental instability. I hope you Russian aren’t all so touchy. We should be able to all get along… alas …

    • Replies: @FB
  165. @MEFOBILLS

    Agreed: Indeed Singapore used this model to become 50% richer than the US on a per capita basis. Its funny how America had already figured out these answers centuries ago, but our stupid leaders seem incapable to administring it today.
    Instead of using the government to administer welfare, use it to build infrastructure and invest in science. You don’t even need a big government to accomplish this. China’s government is only 25% of GDP, whereas America’s parasitic government is 36% of GDP. Changing our government to the China model, we can build more and cut government by around 50%.
    Texas, where I live, is a good example of this. Our state government refuses to spend any money on transfer payments, instead using our funds to build roads and cities with ease, and spending the rest on schooling for our kids.
    Our infrastructure is the best in the country, and we have long suprassed California as the leading technological exporting state in the country. Our semiconductor industry is superior to China’s(essentially 90%+ market share), and probably the only field in manufacturing and design that we are still superior to China.
    I disagree with the notion that China is adapting this model properly. They are still very far from their potential, but even mid-quality adoptions of this model lead to explosive growth. I thought Trump would be like a Rockerfeller Republican, but I guess he is no different than the mainstream “cucked” Republican party.

  166. FB says: • Website
    @last straw

    There are only a handful of engine and avionics companies in the world that can produce aviation engines and avionics that are competitive on the international market. Just like China, Russia can neither produce commercially competitive airliners nor avionics and engines for the international market at the moment.

    And you have what qualifications in aeronautical engineering jackass…?

    If you did know anything about the subject you would realize that Russian engines are in fact the world standard…nobody makes better engines…they are achieving higher turbine inlet temps than equivalent western engines…higher thrust to weight…better fuel efficiency etc…

    Your idiotic fantasy is based on nothing except MSM bullshit…written by asshats like yourself who have ZERO credentials in any technical subjects relating to aerospace technology…

    The US has been buying Russian advanced rocket engine technology for 20 years now because they can’t build it themselves…and has been likewise relying on Russian spacecraft to get US and European astronauts to the space station…which itself is Russian technology for the core command and control module Zvezda…

    [Zvezda] provides all of the station’s life support systems, some of which are supplemented in the USOS…

    Zvezda provided early living quarters, a life support system, a communication system (Zvezda introduced a 10 Mbit/s Ethernet network to the ISS), electrical power distribution, a data processing system, a flight control system, and a propulsion system. These quarters and some, but not all, systems have since been supplemented by additional ISS components.

    In other words the Russian Zvezda module is what makes the space station a space station…I worked at Nasa Ames in the ’90s when the ISS work was going on…US had ZERO space station technology…all the real engineering work was done by the Russians…

    As for advanced Rocket Engines…here is the 2015 statement of Aerodyne Rocketjet’s vice president of advanced space and launch systems to the house Armed Service Committee…

    Since the end of the Cold War the U.S.rocket propulsion industrial base has shrunk significantly and a troubling technology gap has widened…the country is woefully behind in the area of liquid oxygen –hydrocarbon rocketengines.

    Russia is the world leader in hydrocarbon engines and a Russian produced engine,the RD-180 powers America’s most versatile U.S.launch vehicle,the Atlas V.

    The Russian RD-180 uses an advanced staged combustion cycle that provides significant launch vehicle performance benefit; thus it is not surprising that it was selected during the EELV competition to power the Atlas.

    There were no equivalent engines in the U.S.inventory at that time and, sadly, that situation still exists today.

    Russian RD180 engine on the Atlas V assembly area

    Along with the sale of the engines, which continues to this day, there was a massive technology transfer that the US side demanded, as told by Jim Sackett, an engineer who’d been working for Lockheed at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston, and then moved to Moscow.

    The US Air Force, Lockheed’s main customer, demanded access to 10 key technologies needed to produce the RD-180, in case relations with Russia ever foundered and America had to make the engines itself.

    It was a big ask. The US was after a crown jewel of Soviet space technology, and the Russian government was not thrilled.

    I could go on about more aerospace technology transfer from Russia to the US…including scramjet engine technology…Russia today being the ONLY country to field a production scramjet engine for the hypersonic Zircon missile…

    Also the ONLY country to field a hypersonic boost glide vehicle, the Avangard, which travels at Mach 27 and skips along the top of the atmosphere…an epochal breakthrough that scientists have been working on for more than 70 years…since German scientist Eugene Sanger first proposed the concept of an atmosphere skimming spaceplane in the 1940s…

    Meanwhile, the US which has not been able to put humans into space for 10 years is supposed to make better jet engines…?

    How the fuck does a layman clown like yourself think he can start lecturing an actual aerospace professional about known facts regarding advanced propulsion…?

    • Replies: @last straw
  167. FB says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Yes, I’ve got type ratings…

    LOLOLOL

    Please tell me more…I’m all ears…what jet types have you been typed in…?

    Regarding the Tu104

    …17% hull losses in crashes is not a successful aircraft type…

    And the B707 hull loss rate is 20 percent…

    173 hull-loss accidents…out of a total of 865 aircraft produced…

    I did read some of your analysis on the missile strikes, and have no problem with what I’d read.

    Well golly…isn’t that a relief…the most ridiculous whackadoodle and biggest fucking bullshitter on UNZ has ‘approved’ my engineering analysis…

    That’s pretty fucking rich…why don’t you show us some of your ‘engineering’ work goombah…?

    BTW MORON…the hull loss rate in CRASHES of the Tu104 is only 8 percent…

    LOLOLOL

  168. @John Arthur

    Yes and no. If you are talking GDP you also have to look at the real economy. Much of the US economy is generated on spreadsheets nowadays – not anything physically tangible… So productivity based on that number alone is not totally accurate. But policy absolutely has a lot to do with it. All you have to do is compare China to India next door — which for a variety of reasons is the best comparison.
    That said none of knows yet what Artificial Intelligence will do to the workforce so predicting is a fools game. But we do know China is pulling ahead of the US in AI and Robotics (though Germany and Japan lead China still in robotics).

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  169. @John Arthur

    Yes it is true what you say about blacks underachieving in the US. But migrant blacks from the Caribbean and Africa actually do better than the average white American. You can look it up. In any event – how could the US and the Europeans gained so much wealth without the insane profits made from all the free black slave labor throughout the Americas. The fortunes would have been much less.
    Oh and for the record China has minorities. Minorities in China do better compared to the overall population than minorities in the US and Australia (studies have been done on that also). They get many preferential policies. Singapore is another good example. In Singapore when the Malays were falling behind in math and sciences the government got them extra help – through community led initiatives. Not just schools – but neighborhoods are proportionally regulated so that there is no normalization of ghettos in Singapore. US policy was pretty much the exact opposite throughout history….. Hence the results.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  170. @FB

    Well, you could read the wiki page that you linked to, which I’d have done, had I linked to it (that’s just me…):

    Whilst the Tu-104 continued to be used by Aeroflot throughout the 1960s and 1970s, the safety record of the aircraft was poor, in comparison to other jet airliners of its day (16 out of 96 aircraft were lost in crashes). The Tu-104 was unreliable, heavy, very unstable with poor control response, with an inclination to Dutch roll. Poor design aerodynamics of the wings resulted in a propensity to stall with little or no warning and a dangerous tendency to pitch-up violently before stalling and entering an irrecoverable dive.

    Crashes are bad … mkkay?

    Boeing realized the the average airline pilot would not be able to reliably handle the Dutch Roll characteristics of the B-47, hence same with the B-707. They developed the electronic (analog, of course) “Little Herbie” yaw damper to fix this problem. It was possibly the first time resorting to electronics to fix a flying characteristic (shades of the 737-MAX 6 decades later?), but they all have got em.

    I didn’t read enough to know if that Tupolev had a yaw damper, or just not a good one.

    Nope, I don’t give out personal information. Rather than try to stalk me, just thank me for the correction on the first commercial jetliner in service. Yeah, they both had major problems. The Comet 4’s and 4B’s were OK, but, again, they were made relics by the American-built bigger 707s and DC-8s.

  171. Interesting and well though tout questions. I only have two points to make;

    Most Chinese, just as most people in the world, albeit less nowadays, still heavily buy into this notion of a superior political system, liberal democratic system. More and more Chinese are suspicious of its fatal flaws and feel that it is not yet the right time to have, thanks to problematic developments of every where in the west, including Taiwan and Hong KOng. Hence many are fine with the current system, but yearning for that ideal system to come in the future.

    As for more range of books available in the market seems to imply something better. IMHO, we in the west often believe that the more options, the closer we are to the truth, or the freer or more open we become. but reality does point to the other way. Case in point, we have everything available to us on the internet, do people in the west really know more in general than the people in China? Do people on Taiwan really have better understanding of issues than the people in China? The sad truth is both are just as ignorant. It is mostly due to our human nature, nothing to do with the availability of information. Otherwise, with trillion bits of information on any given subject, we should already become the smartest generation ever!

    We can theoretically set up an ideal system, but if humans don’t comply, it is not going to work. People just prefer spending times with family and friends to reading something that has no relevance to their day to day lives. Other than news junkies like you and me, who else is reading anything like what we are doing now? Not too many.

    As a matter of fact when we are confronted with a load of information, we will resign completely to become headline readers, which is exactly what most modern people are. Worst of all, we start developing a sense of superiority complex to those in other places like in China or third world countries thinking that we know more, even though we are just as ignorant as they are.

  172. @Showmethereal

    True. Steve Sailer makes a point about how the conscious attempts to not emulate African American culture has led to success in the Black immigrant community, but we would need to see regression to the mean over a few generations to make a final conclusion. No policy has bridged the gap between ADOS and White Americans.
    My point was that if China had an equivalent Black population like our own Descent of Slaves(170 million Blacks), they would have completely collapsed. In contrast despite this powerful headwind, the US has done much better than expected.
    People often mistake China’s fast growth as a reflection of good policy making, when really it is a reflection of extreme demographic luck. Though, China is avoiding the foreign policy mistakes that plague the US

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  173. @FB

    Nope, 16 out of 96 is 16.7%. READ THE PAGE/DO THE MATH

    Again, you have to read thoroughly through your linked-to sites, if you want to argue. There were 1010 deliveries of 707s – that’s slightly less than the number produced, which could not be 865 obviously. That IS about the same as the Tupolev, right at 17%, so I”ll give you that.

    The thing is, 1010 is an order of magnitude larger than the 96 Tupolevs, and I don’t know how long the aircraft of each type were in service. Many 707s saw service down in S. America for many years after they quit flying in the US. Crashes per flight hour would be the best measure, IMO.

    “Accidents” are not the same as “crashes”, being a bigger number to include ground movement accidents, vehicle-airplane ones, etc., but obviously hull-loss accidents were pretty serious. Again, anything on the ground, involving taxiing or no movement of the A/C is obviously not a problem with the A/C.

    • Replies: @FB
  174. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    That guy sounds like the most boring guy in the world which is very typical of highly educated Chinese. They are so focused on the one thing that they have learned, they don’t know anything else. Before the Chinese invasion, larger Canadian cities were lots of fun, with lots of variety in restaurants European cultural events and nightlife. Since the invasion of the Chinese accountants and economists, the cities shut down at 9:00 pm and the only celebrations that are allowed are dragon boat races and gay parades. The real estate prices driven up by the expatriate Chinese have driven out all the mom and pop restaurants and stores that used to make cities interesting. My impression of the Chinese over the past 30 years of invasions is that they are a two-dimensional, money-obsessed, gray people with very little imagination, who have adopted the worst features of western capitalism and incorporated it into their own culture. The finer points of their own culture have been forgotten. This is manifested at its worst in the Hong Kong Chinese culture. Soon I am going to move as far away away as possible from them.

  175. Martin is right about the feelings of Chinese people toward the gvmt.

    Some scholars even said: China is a civilization that pretend to be a nation/country.

    To get the logic here, we need to go through some old history:
    The ancient tales (also probably the true history) tells the origin of China: Yu the Great lead the people(primitive peasants) to fight against the flood by dredge the Yellow River.
    So China is firstly a civilization/organization to dredge the river.
    Those who don’t do farming, don’t join this flood managing engineering thing, they are uncivilized.
    So Middle Kingdom actually means ‘world of the civilized’.
    That’s why in Chinese history, whenever the Middle Kingdom break into pieces, people fight to unit the ‘world’ again.
    It means:
    Whatever price it takes, ‘civilized world’ should be united and organized so people can fight against the floods (equals to all kinds of disasters).
    Whenever it is united and organized, it becomes the Middle Kingdom that has no fear, no rival.
    That’s why, China is always there. It’s not a country, it’s a world system of its own.

    Be united and organized to fight against the flood for the civilized people. That’s the basic logic of China.China will prevail, because this logic prevail.
    What’s your basic logic? Be ready for the chosen ones with the only ark for the doom day?
    How can you be ready for that? Why is he chosen? How about others? Who makes the choice?Why is there a doom day? Only one ark? Why is this decision? We don’t like this logic.

    As for the notion of Han Chinese people:
    Han=Han dynasty
    Han people=people live in the Middle Kingdom=people of the ‘civilized world’
    Originally it’s has nothing to do with nation, nothing to do with ethnic.
    It’s more like the word: citizen.
    That’s why there are more than 1 billion Han people today.
    Descendant of Xianbei, Xiongnu, Qidan…the ancient nomadism tribes, is now Han Chinese.
    Descendant of ancient Jew businessman travels to China, is now Han living in Hebei, China. Descendant of Yuan(part of Mongol Empire) royal house , is now Han living in Gansu, China.
    Descendant of Manchu royals and nobles, is now equate with Han living in Beijing mostly.
    Surprise!
    China was the biggest melting pot of nations and cultures, and Han the product of this pot.
    Even today, if you move to China and live here hence and manage to get a citizen’s ID, your grandson will highly possibly becomes a Han Chinese, no matter he is black or white or brown.

    That’s nearly impossible for you guys to understand, right?

    If China means anything serious to you, you firstly try to understand her past. As the oldest living continuous civilization on Earth, that’s what China was before industry revolution, before China meet the west.

    Did the industry revolution and the new world encounter erase your connections with Roman/Christianity heritage? No?

    Neither for us.

    But if China is just a joke to you, keep your jokes to yourself, we won’t laugh.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  176. @FB

    Russia is ahead in some military tech – but not all. Even in space tech – absolutely China learned from Russia. But it has passed Russia in space tech already. Not 10 years from now – but already. There is no shame to say they learned from Russia… And both Russia and the US based their space programs on German tech. Everyone buikds off of those before them… Going all the way back to the first rocket – which was invented in China.
    You are correct though that for zome reason China cant seem to mass produce jet engines (and car engines either really)… Not sure why… That said you downplay China’s development of the CR 929. Development is much more evenly split than you let on.

    But lets be real… This is no knock on Russia – but please name one applied technology that is not derived from direct military use (jet engines are) where Russia is ahead of China? Almost none. Even civilian nuclear power – China learned from Russia and France in recent times… Most would say they now have passed both. Life is not static.

    • Replies: @FB
  177. @Showmethereal

    Great points. I am not so sure that China is leading the US in robotics or AI, though the gap has been completely narrowed. They seem much better at integrating AI into the everyday, practical side of things. This seems more valuable than the stuff the US focuses on.
    Now, I disagree on the India vs China comparison. While India’s IQ is not what most people think(it’s in the very high 90s), it suffers from extreme cretinism, and so cannot be used against a 105 IQ China. That’s why I compare using White workers, who have an IQ that is 5 pts less than their Chinese counterparts.
    Here’s my thinking
    The productivity per worker per year of the US economy is just take their GDP divide by their workforce.
    Since’s Whites are 60% of the country and are thought to earn about 75% of the income in the economy, that makes them 90 million or so workers(probably less since they are older) of the workforce, and responsible for around $16 trillion dollars.
    China’s workforce is 800 million
    800/90=8.8888889
    16*8.8888889=142.22222
    So if the average Chinese worker was as productive as the average White American worker, then China’s ecnomy would be $142-ish trillion.
    Considering that China is very far from that number, and is already slowing down to 5% level growth, and will continue to slow down from there, I am very skeptical that China is as governed well in economic terms as the US.
    No doubt their massive numbers and IQ will make them #1, but the Chinese did not reinvent the economic wheel.

  178. FB says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    …96 Tupolevs…

    More bullshit from the Bullshit King…

    There were a total of 201 Tu104s produced not 96…says so right there moron…

    The 1,010 figure for the 707 you cited includes the 720 variant, which was produced later…163 airframes and 23 hull losses [separate from the 707 numbers]…

    As for production…the Tu104 was built for only four years, 1956 to ’60…during which time 201 were built and put into service…50 airframes a year…not counting variants…

    The 707 was built for 22 years…from 1957 to 1979…with a total of 865 produced, again not counting variants…for just under 40 airframes per year…

    The Tu104 was succeeded by the Tu134 in 1963, of which 854 were built…the world’s most-produced twinjet of its class.

    Some 69 Tu-134 have been destroyed in accidents and wars, of which 35 were non-fatal incidents (in one of the remaining 34 fatal incidents no one on the plane died).

    So 33 fatal incidents…and one third of the hull losses of the 707, produced in similar numbers…

    As for this…

    Nope, I don’t give out personal information. Rather than try to stalk me…

    Wow…if there is any doubt left as to your complete mental instability, I’m sure we would all love to see it…

    Since when is asking a purported fellow pilot what jets he’s typed in considered ‘personal’ information…?

    That’s called ‘hangar talk’…LOL

    As for anyone stalking you…what a complete fucking mental patient…get a grip bozo…

    Anyway…try not to waste any more of time here…I’ve never seen one intelligent comment from you on this discussion forum…and you are as usual contributing zilch to any real discussion…

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  179. FB says: • Website
    @Showmethereal

    [China] has passed Russia in space tech already. Not 10 years from now – but already.

    Is that right Einstein…?

    Let’s see now…there’s Russia in the number one spot with 28,000 total person-days in space…

    And China seems to be ‘right up there’ too…holding down a solid 12’th place overall…just behind Belgium and the Netherlands, and just ahead of massive space power Switzerland…with a grand total of 165 days in space…[Using Russian Soyuz tech…]

    LOLOLOL

    Anyway…besides the fact that you are profoundly retarded…I would be interested in hearing those specific areas where China is ‘ahead’ of Russia in space tech…

    Please feel free to bullshit freely here…we will be delighted to hear about this amazing ‘secret’ space tech that nobody has ever heard about…

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  180. Kouros says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    They did that indeed, with a level of violence unprecedented for the area. Worst than the worst pirates. But being highly indebted, European monarchies tried to extract as much profit from their investments, at all costs. However, Japan for instance, due to their samurais, was impossible to crack for another 250 years, and even then, the Japanese controlled their destiny.

    Now that the technological genie is out of the bottle, we might reach a certain balance…

  181. Kouros says:
    @FvS

    Looks very bad indeed. China is, very inelegantly, taking “care” of internal dissent. But I do wonder if she will get 35 years sentence as Manning, for showing US military killing civilians in Iraq from helicopter, or even charging non-US citizens…

    • Replies: @Ber
  182. @FB

    And you have what qualifications in aeronautical engineering jackass…?

    If you did know anything about the subject you would realize that Russian engines are in fact the world standard…nobody makes better engines…they are achieving higher turbine inlet temps than equivalent western engines…higher thrust to weight…better fuel efficiency etc…

    Your idiotic fantasy is based on nothing except MSM bullshit…written by asshats like yourself who have ZERO credentials in any technical subjects relating to aerospace technology…

    The fact speaks for itself. I’m talking about the international civilian market, not Russia’s domestic market. Russian commercial engines are simply not competitive on the international market at the moment. Period.

    The US has been buying Russian advanced rocket engine technology for 20 years now because they can’t build it themselves…and has been likewise relying on Russian spacecraft to get US and European astronauts to the space station…which itself is Russian technology for the core command and control module Zvezda…

    Did I argue about rocket engines and space technology? Too bad the Soviet Union could not figure out how to build a proper heavy-lifting rocket and lost the moon race to the U.S. They could not deliver when it counted.

  183. @Ber

    No. It was created by Allen Dulles, his brother Foster Dulles and the New York Bankster law firms like Brown Bros. Harriman and Sullivan-Cromwell. America was WASP in those days. Most of the young recruits came from Ivy Leagues, older recruits came from WWII OSS, Office of Strategic Services.

    They snookered Harry Truman into signing the National Security Act of 1947.

    It created the National Security Council (NSC) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

    • Replies: @Ber
  184. @d dan

    Yeah FB obviously has a chip on his shoulder. There are indeed dtwo design centers – one in each country. Truth be told it was politics. Production is majority going to be done in China – so to make it really a JOINT venture – Russia had to convince (as the article he posted claimed) China to let the design headquarters be in Russia. Russia was always going to design the engines because they are better than China at that – but yeah Russia’s civil aviation isnt that great. If it was it would compete with Airbus and Boeing today. Those companies are afraid Russia will take market share… Its China they became afraid of. Seems Boeing and Airbus know more than FB.

    • Replies: @d dan
  185. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @John Arthur

    What are you talking about? Han Chinese are 91.5% of the population and are a probably higher share of the workforce

    Cbina is 91% “Han” – kind of a misnomer since Han is af this point a catchall like “Amsrican” and includes regional populations that are quite different from the Han nucleus in the north. However the median age of “Han” is way higher than the median age of ethnic minorities in China. China’s workforce is way less than 91% Han.

    https://www.economist.com/china/2017/09/21/chinas-demographic-divisions-are-getting-deeper

    There’s quite a difference between a median age of 46 for US whites and 36 for Han China.

    Except the median age od Han China is nowhere near 36.

    Even if we contest your silly claim to be true, then the US is still competing with a country with 5x their workforce while dealing with internal substantially sized Black population, who are even more dysfunctional compared to their brethren in Africa.

    But way less dangerous than the Turks in NW China, and the Mongols in NE China, and the masses of even more dangerous Mongols and Turks just outside of China. Also, blacks are less dysfunctional than they were 40 years ago, and crime in America has been on the decline for years.

    • Replies: @zogborg
  186. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @John Arthur

    1. 5 times the workforce of the US, with most of that workforce being 90+% Han, who have an IQ around 105

    Why keep reiterating this lie? China’s workforce is probably less than 70% Han. The Han are older than white Americans. The average Han does not have an average IQ of 105.

    13% of the US population, and a equal % of the workforce are African Americans, some of the most dysfunctional people on the planet, and monumentally large crime rates and fundamentally weak persistant earnings.

    Not even close. America has a negligibld homicide rate, and even Detroit’s homicide rate ia lower than South Africa’s.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  187. Harbinger says:

    Of course we can compete against China. We could start the ball rolling here in Scotland. Just get every one of the 5million or so, put them into factories, pay them £0.00000000000002 an hour, they will all sleep in communal halls below the company, where the products they make are bought by the rich and famous, who already own 99% of the land, with the majority not even from Scotland.
    Just use this same method around the rest of the west.
    18 hour work days, no days off, no families…..
    Maggot and ‘Soylent’ Green burgers all round!

    Really, what a stupid article headline.
    We could never compete with China, because they’ve got loads more people than us, whom they pay a pittance. This is why almost all products are made there today, as it’s exploitation of the workforce.

    Sir Bertrand Russell, was an original member of the Frankfurt School. He went to China and taught them about revolution, essentially kicking it all off. He viewed the Chinese as the future of humanity because they were ‘good, obedient, workers’ – slaves.

    This is what the west should do:

    1. Hang the bankers and smash their empire completely.
    2. Stop importing foreign goods and instead make everything in their own lands. This will give people jobs.
    3. Remove immigrants, thus increasing the wage due to a reduction in the workforce.
    4. Pay all staff a percentage of profits for that month, after costs are taken into consideration. End the CEO, Boards and managerial positions who like to play golf and have luncheon, earning hundreds time more than the factory worker, doing absolutely no work at all.
    5. Remove the Jews, thus removing usury and give the country and the land back to the people of it.

    This of course will never happen.
    Your future is 1984 and Brave New World.
    The elites will rule because you’re already slave and happily accepting your slavery.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  188. FB says: • Website

    Russian commercial engines are simply not competitive on the international market at the moment. Period.

    Look Moron…like I said you have ZERO qualifications to be talking about aircraft engines…

    Yet you insist on making these kinds of idiotic statements…what the fuck do you actually know about how the civilian aircraft market operates…?

    Do you happen to know anything about this…other than some bullshit you may have read in the corporate media…?

    The civil aircraft industry is intensely political…it’s not a matter of competing on technical merits…it’s a simple matter that western countries are not going to buy Russian airplanes or engines no matter how good they are…

    But plenty of countries are buying Russian military aircraft, which are considered the best in the world…and if y0u knew anything about aviation at all you would know that military technologies are way ahead of civilian…the advances made in military jet engines and airframes trickles down eventually to the civil sector…

    Btw…China has been trying to reverse engineer the Russian jet engines for 20 years without success…well known fact…

    Even Ukraine is ahead of China in aircraft engine technology, which is why China is trying to buy Motor Sich the Soviet era company…the US is trying to block this acquisition…

    As for rocket engines and how the science is related to aircraft engines…again you show what a complete know-nothing you are…do you have any engineering credentials…?

    Of course not…you are a goofy Han peasant who is proving to everyone here how stupid Chinks actually are…

    Poor Godfree Roberts…he keeps trying to prop you fools up…but there is no help for retarded Chinks…

    Your buddy Joshua Wong…no wonder they call retards ‘mongoloids’…

    • Replies: @last straw
  189. @Half-Jap

    History goes in cycles. If the world is still standing in 200 years the question will probably which part of the cycle China is in. They are on the ascendacy and growing closer to being top again. Then they will crest for a long time and then decline again. They even have a saying for it in Chinese because they have been through it before. They reached the economic and technology top during the Han – Song – Tang – Ming dynasties. Even during the beginning of the Qing they were the largest economy. History doesnt lie (though people do) and neither does the bible. While the earth stands nations will rise and fall. China has the most experiences in that.

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @Half-Jap
  190. @The Wild Geese Howard

    You put everything together in one sentence, TWGH, I really really wish I hadn’t seen your comment. The future is gonna be evil.

  191. @Escher

    Thats the problem in Trumpland… Too many false facts. ASEAN is China’s largest market. The EU is their second. The US is 3rd. Now if you want to talk actual Chinese companies (versus foreign companies producing in China for their own home markets) – the difference is even more.

  192. @FB

    Just going by your wiki links, FB. The 727 number incl. variants built (practically-speaking, 727s) were 1010.

    We are not in a hangar, and you don’t seem like someone I’d ever hang out with in that manner. Yes, your insistence on knowing details about me is different on-line than if we did know each other.

    Again, the De Havilland Comet was flying commercially well before ANY of the Tupolev jets. If you’d admit your reading comprehension problems from the get-go, and not include links that don’t support your argument, you wouldn’t get so many replies from me. I’m not gonna let your stupidity stand, though I probably would ignore it if you weren’t such a dick.

  193. @John Arthur

    You keep missing the point. You reap what you sow. The US chose to enslave and then segregate a portion of the population for centuries. What did you think would be the result? China is “forcing” the Uighurs to get educated or learn a trade whther they like it or not… The west calls foul. Conversely wise there are more African college students in Africa than anywhere else. They arent meant to stay but to go back and build their own countries. So if you think blacks are the problem – simply educate them to university level and then send them back to Africa. Its cheaper than prisons and welfare. But just so you know – in terms of total nu.bers in poverty and on welfare – whites still have more total numbers.

    In any event – you keep think it was luck of demographics but its simply not true. Again – compare India and China’s development in the last 40 years.
    Sorry – no nation.

  194. zogborg [AKA "mousie dung"] says:
    @Sam Coulton

    How exactly are Mongols and Turks, both Asian populations, more dangerous than American Negros? Are you trolling?

    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Sam Coulton
  195. @FB

    Nice graph… But what does it have to do with today? Jaguar is an older car company than Toyota but guess who is more advanced now…? In any event to answer your question – China is now ahead in a majority of space related tech/practice. Dont believe me – simply look up any publications that track space travel and tech. Russia is now going to be a guest in China’s space station.
    One area Russia is still ahead is in propulsion of the largest rockets. For some reason – just like turbo fan engines – China struggles to catch Russia.
    In reality though – in spite of the chip on your shoulder – China and Russia are collaborating in many things and not just CR 929. Russia is helping China build an early warning system and apparently they are negotiating in the areas of China’s weaknesses woth propulsion.
    Oj the flip side – China is helping Russia with many applied fields – such as someone mention before – 5G.
    Name one thing that you can buy right now – whether a tv or a phone or a computer or refrigerator or a car by a Russian company or a Chinese company and tell me which has better homegrown tech in any of the above. Russia knows its own strength and weakness.

  196. d dan says:
    @Showmethereal

    “There are indeed dtwo design centers – one in each country…”

    I knew that, but was having hard time trying to convince @FB. Thanks for the confirmation.

    “Russia was always going to design the engines because they are better than China at that – but yeah Russia’s civil aviation isnt that great.”

    Agree. It is one of the few areas that Russia is still ahead. I think the cooperation will certainly help each other to learn a lot of things.

    “Its China they became afraid of. Seems Boeing and Airbus know more than FB.”

    China has the market, Russia doesn’t. That will drive a lot of decisions. Also China has the track record of manufacturing good price/quality products that takes market share from western companies. That is why Boeing and Airbus are afraid of China.

  197. d dan says:
    @Showmethereal

    “They reached the economic and technology top during the Han – Song – Tang – Ming dynasties. ”

    It is very hard for some people to accept that Chinese society was once the most innovative civilization in the world. Because if they accept that, it will implicitly admitting that Godfree’s thesis may have some possibility of truth.

    For example, some guy in another thread was arguing that paper making, gunpowder, compass, porcelain, silk etc were all “invented” by white people. LOL.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  198. @Joe Stalin

    O God, no, nooo, noooooo!!!! You do not show movies like this to Chinese males, it is like feeding cocaine to a giant colony of psychotic insects then stirring it with a stick!!! Nobody here has any idea how mentally ill the Chinese male is, the cold, dead arrogance mixed with hair trigger rage. They really really hate “whiteman” because their girls like us, and don’t like them. As a Chinese lady once told me “In China, 90% of marriages are without love”. I’ve seen a Chinese Dad coldly ragging on his 12 year old daughter in front of a grocery store, and she standing fixed, face like a frozen mask, but her eyes told her story, twenty minutes later I see them IN the store, and he’s still doing it. Don’t be fooled by Godfree Roberts and his ” Confucian Governance” craperoo, that is not who these people are. Its not like an episode of Kung Fu and the “grasshopper” nonsense, with their new wealth it is more like Ming The Merciless, heavily armed, hammered on rice wine and driving a Ferrari the size of a house…. Its gonna be bad, real bad…..oh well, I guess I’ll have a chance at a heroic death….I’m old but in excellent shape. I can see a future, standing on a beach, rifle at port arms, light wind ruffling my white hair, watching as a giant swarm of landing craft surge in. If I can take 3 or 4 bugmen with me to the grave I will have died well.

  199. @zogborg

    He is well intentioned, so I doubt he is a troll, but what he says is completely incorrect. All evidence available points to African Americans having some of the highest crime rates of any people in the world for a country in complete peace.
    China being 13% Black would have destroyed the country.
    Obviously there may be policies that may mitigate this, but no one has done them yet

    • Replies: @zogborg
    , @Sam Coulton
  200. onebornfree says: • Website

    China, the NBA, and the massive face of Globalism-Support the Hong Kong protestors against the brutal mainland Chinese regime

    “Let’s get one thing straight. The Chinese people, whether they appear happy or sad, support their government because they’re controlled. After generations of being beaten down, the population bows the head and bends the knee to slave masters. Call that freedom if you want to.

    And if you really believe the situation in America is no better than the system in China, even with the amount of censorship alive and well in America, even with the rigging of this economy, try an experiment. Move to China and start publishing articles relentlessly critical of the government there. See what happens. Be sure to leave a copy of your last Will and Testament at home….”:

    https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2019/10/14/china-the-nba-and-the-massive-face-of-globalism/

    Regards, onebornfree

  201. We could never compete with China, because they’ve got loads more people than us, whom they pay a pittance. This is why almost all products are made there today, as it’s exploitation of the workforce.

    Not any more. e.g. Huawei:

    https://twnews.co.uk/gb-news/inside-huawei-s-factory-where-robots-and-humans-work-together-to-build-smartphones

    While each line was previously overseen by 86 human workers, they now only require 17 workers – thanks to the addition of robots.

    While this process sounds pretty intense, amazingly, Huawei is able to produce 2,400 smartphones on each production line every day!

    https://www.paysa.com/salaries/huawei–china,-tx–cl

    Huawei’s China, TX location pay it’s employees an average of $105,554, ranging from $82,741 at the 25th percentile to $123,357 at the 75th percentile, with top earners (the top 10%) earning more than $147,644.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  202. zogborg [AKA "mousie dung"] says:
    @John Arthur

    Have you noticed American blacks look more similar to Melanesians in the South Pacific than Africans? Look up Papuan people, or people from Fiji or Vanuatu. These people look exactly like American Negroes while Africans are much darker and can rarely grow a beard.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  203. @AaronB

    The amusing thing about China is that the reality is opposite of the popular perception.

    It is precisely in brain power that China is not first rate.

    Its advantages lie in social organization.

    But popular perception often lags reality. In 30 years from now I think we’ll no longer be hearing about superior Asian intelligence. It will be one of the curious myths of the early 21st century.

    You just cannot stop repeating your total BS, can you? China’s brain power is not only indicated by the sheer number of high quality research papers they publish,, it’s also demonstrated by the top notch academic institutions they have established. Rest assured, the 21st century belongs to China.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    , @AaronB
  204. Moi says:
    @Biff

    China is, and will continue, to clean our clock. While we do invasions and bombings and overthrow of governments, China focuses on business. We had a great country once, but it’s over.

  205. Moi says:
    @Paul54

    No, that’s what decades and an irrational belief in rapacious capitalism leads to.

  206. Moi says:
    @Anonymous

    Let’s welcome the niggerization and immigration takeover of America.

  207. @FB

    The civil aircraft industry is intensely political…it’s not a matter of competing on technical merits…it’s a simple matter that western countries are not going to buy Russian airplanes or engines no matter how good they are…

    Such idiotic statement exposes that you are a fake “expert”. The civilian commercial aviation industry is intensely competitive because your products have to be safe, reliable, and efficient. Politics has nothing to do with it.

    Btw…China has been trying to reverse engineer the Russian jet engines for 20 years without success…well known fact…

    Even Ukraine is ahead of China in aircraft engine technology, which is why China is trying to buy Motor Sich the Soviet era company…the US is trying to block this acquisition…

    So what? I anticipate success for China in the next 5-10 years.

    As for rocket engines and how the science is related to aircraft engines…again you show what a complete know-nothing you are…do you have any engineering credentials…?

    So genius, let me ask you some questions: who will build the next space station in 5 years, China or Russia? Who will build a 3,500-4,000 ton class moon rocket to sent a human to the moon in the next 10-15 years, China or Russia?

    BTW, the treasonous a-hole Joshua Wong is not my buddy.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FB
  208. @Commentator Mike

    If those salaries referred to Huawei Texas, here they are for PR China location:

    https://www.glassdoor.sg/Salary/Huawei-Technologies-China-Salaries-EI_IE9304.0,19_IL.20,25_IN48.htm

    Still respectable for PR China conditions.

  209. The USA was roaring along great despite Mao’s Communist China, locked in yet another 5 year plan disaster and on bicycles no less.

    Then corporate America bribed Congress to write the laws making it legal to screw over America.

  210. @zogborg

    Interesting, I wouldn’t know much about it though

  211. Anonymous[358] • Disclaimer says:

    >>But what if China is neither repressive, extractive nor authoritarian?

    Yeah, what IF.

  212. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @last straw

    The 21st century is about one quarter finished already, and still strongly Anglo-American.
    China is an old, worn out country with no clear objective.

    • Replies: @Ber
  213. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @John Arthur

    If the evidence is there, go ahead and post it. African Americans aren’t preventing America’s crime rates to falling to record lows. Crime is falling in most black cities.

  214. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @zogborg

    You may want to consult Chinese history. Thousands of years spent dominated by Turks and Mongols, who are Eurasians.

    Turks and Mongols = historically, some of tbe world’s most dangerous people ever, and they hate Chinese with a fervor!!!

    • Replies: @zogborg
  215. You left the most important factor : The pernicious destructive force of ZIONISM upon the American Republic (political/economic/CULTURAL) etc. Pursuing a ZIO centered foreign policy as well as a Zio jewish counter culture has dilapidated the American political/economic standards. A bankrupted US treasury, failed educational, infrastructure, Debase industrial, manufacturing cities al in favor of Jewish socio engineering. This actually part of a greater plan that seeks to move the USA from a leading role to a mercenary, military, nation as part of a New Global Order based outside of the USA. The ZIO establishment has been responsible for the FREE Trade policies, endless WARS in the Middle East, massive commercial deficits, the collapse of the dollar, and a decaying American Middle Class along with its Civic, political, moral values. Open borders had meant massive admission of LOW IQ , poor, Unskilled, illiterate, populations often times admittedly ANTIamerican, with NO intentions of cultural assimilation into main stream America. While Israel had been the direct beneficiary of USA Trillions in Foreign assistance, military support, and Techno/economic corporate development often times obtain with ILLEGAL israeli spying, outright stealing USA Corporate, military R&D. China was a 3th wolrd giant , but after 1973 with the infusion of massisve USA Corporate investment,consumption, IT has become an industrial, technological World behemoth which means the new leading UNrival worlds Super hegemonic Power…

  216. @Harbinger

    “We could never compete with China, because they’ve got loads more people than us, whom they pay a pittance. This is why almost all products are made there today, as it’s exploitation of the workforce.”?

    Read the article. Or just look at the spreadsheet at the end. Does that suggest they’re paid a pittance? In fact, Chinese manufacturing wages, adjusted for benefits and productivity, passed ours in 2018.

    • Replies: @Harbinger
  217. @follyofwar

    You’re right, of course, that UBI $1,000 per month won’t be enough after a further increase in automation and AI quickly eliminates millions of Americans’ Jobs.

    But If we stop the wars and occupations, we will have much of the money to find a UBI without adding to the Fed gov debt.

    Then, what if we actually require people to choose between the UBI and other federal and state gov transfer payments other than Social Security and Medicaid (such as food stamps, cash assistance, home heating subsidies, etc).l? We can afford a big UBI in time, without more debt.

    Moreover, to minimize both the budgetary hit and the potential inflationary effect of a UBI — and to make sure that offsetting spending cuts and tax hikes supply the needed revenue in advance — we can start the UBI very Low (say, $200 per month) and increase it by $100/month per year for a decade or more.

    • Replies: @zogborg
  218. AaronB says:
    @last straw

    Elite Chinese computer science grads cannot match average US cs grads. US grads dramatically outperformed their Chinese counterparts.

    So much for the best Chinese students choosing to stay home because their education is so much better lol.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inverse.com/amp/article/54133-computer-science-grads-competitiveness-by-country

    • Replies: @last straw
  219. Bill says:
    @Liberty Mike

    I know you’re bitter that Murray Rothbard is dead. You’ll just have to find someone else who will let you suck their toes.

  220. zogborg [AKA "mousie dung"] says:
    @Sam Coulton

    Historically yes, but do the majority Han Chinese need to fear getting conquered again by these nomadic folks? I don’t think so. Although I would love to see the Han population drastically cut down to size. Japan needs to remilitarize like yesterday.

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @Sam Coulton
  221. zogborg [AKA "mousie dung"] says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Its hilarious to me that there are cucks, calling themselves conservative, who oppose UBI but have no issue with financially supporting domestic and (((foreign))) parasites. You gotta love the American political spectrum, where the most idiotic and degenerate opinions make up the mainstream debate…

  222. FB says: • Website
    @last straw

    [Too many profanities and racial slurs may reduce the likelihood of your comment being published.]

    The civilian commercial aviation industry is intensely competitive because your products have to be safe, reliable, and efficient. Politics has nothing to do with it.

    What a fucking laughable Chink retard…

    Ever hear of the Bombardier C-Series…now the Airbus A220…

    Why don’t you educate your illiterate Chink ass and read up on it…everybody in the aviation industry knows this…

    [MORE]

    Boeing and Airbus, the new ‘super duopoly’

    Having failed to prevent Bombardier from finding a “launch customer,” Boeing did what it has always done — wrapped itself in the American flag and demanded help from Washington.

    Over the years, no American company has proved more adept than Boeing at using its political and legal muscle to boost its commercial fortunes.

    …the Commerce Department agreed and recommended the independent International Trade Commission impose a 300 percent tariff on the C Series planes…

    And that’s from the Washington Post…

    That’s how the game is played idiot…not to mention that the Bombardier aircraft is from friend and neighbor Canada…

    Look it’s clear to me that talking to you is like going to the zoo and trying to talk to a fucking tree monkey…you simply have zero knowledge…

    This is the proof right here how fucking stupid you are…you proved it yourself with your own words…

    As for your idiot friend and his talk of refrigerators and phones…wow…like I said you Chinks are incredibly fucking stupid…why didn’t he also mention cheap clothes and shoes made in China…that has to count for something…LOLOLOL

    And oh yeah…I love that non-existent Chinese ‘space station’…

    Let me know when that ‘space station’ vaporware is up and flying…[of course the Chinks might have to buy or steal the plans from people with real brains…]

    Btw…about the Moscow based design center…Boeing has one in Moscow also…

    Russian engineers at the Boeing Design Center in Moscow also will participate in the 777X detailed design, Boeing says….

    The Moscow design centre heavily contributed to the design of the 747-8…

    In fact that Boeing Moscow design center has been there for more than 20 years…

    So I guess that means that Boeing planes are now EQUALLY designed in Moscow…?

    Like I said you’re a fucking tree monkey who knows zilch about the aerospace industry…the HEADQUARTERS of the CR929 Design Center will be in Moscow…

    The CR929 engineering and design center will be a separate legal body that will be responsible for obtaining and maintaining the aircraft’s type certificate.

    Do you understand the ramifications of that…?

    CHINA HAS NEVER CERTIFIED A CIVIL AIRCRAFT…

    Do you even know what a type certificate is…?

    Obviously not…being a retarded fucking tree monkey…

    Oh and btw…the C919 was supposed to have a carbon fiber wing, but they gave up on that…meanwhile the Russians are making their own carbon fiber wing on the MC21 USING DOMESTIC CARBON FIBER…

    What a fucking joke…you fucking Chinks need to learn a lesson…

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  223. d dan says:
    @zogborg

    “Although I would love to see the Han population drastically cut down to size. Japan needs to remilitarize like yesterday.”

    LOL. Are you sure the Pearl Harbor is better defended this time?

    • Replies: @zogborg
  224. zogborg [AKA "mousie dung"] says:
    @d dan

    Japanese respect strength, and since America defeated them overwhelmingly, they are a loyal ally. However, they will never regard you filthy Chinese with respect.

  225. Erebus says:
    @Goddard

    This attitude is less the classic American can-do optimism and more the bury-one’s-head-in-the-sand, it-can’t-happen-to-me entitlement mentality born of decades of luxury.

    Absolutely, though I also get the sense that deeper down lurks an awareness that the issues are intractable and the consequences too awful to contemplate.

  226. FB says: • Website
    @last straw

    Total retard ‘last strawman’ squawked this from his tree monkey perch…

    …who will build the next space station in 5 years, China or Russia?

    First of all Russia already has a space station…it’s called the ISS…

    Before that, Russia had the Mir space station in orbit for more than 10 years…

    Mir was the first continuously inhabited long-term research station in orbit and held the record for the longest continuous human presence in space at 3,644 days, until it was surpassed by the ISS on 23 October 2010.

    The functional core of the ISS, the Zvezda module was built as the Mir 2…

    November 1993: International Space Station built around Mir-2

    But let us look at China’s plans for a space station…

    The assembly method of the station can be compared with the Soviet-Russian Mir space station and the Russian orbital segment of the International Space Station, if the station is constructed, China will be the second nation to develop and use automatic rendezvous and docking for modular space station construction. [After Russia]

    Gee I wonder where that technology came from…?

    Like Mir and the Russian orbital segment of the ISS, the CSS modules will be fully assembled in orbit, in contrast to the US Orbital Segment of the ISS, which required spacewalking to interconnect cables, piping, and structural elements manually.

    The axial port of the LCMs will be fitted with rendezvous equipment and will first dock to the axial port of the CCM.

    A mechanical arm similar to the Russian Lyappa arm used on the Mir space station will then move the module to a radial port of the CCM.

    Gee…we’re starting to see a pattern here…but there’s more…for instance the docking mechanism…

    …the docking mechanism strongly resembles APAS-89/APAS-95, with one American source going as far as to call it a clone.

    APAS being short for the RUSSIAN Androgynous Peripheral Attach System

    But the Russian help to the Chinese goes much further back…

    During the cordial Sino-Soviet relations of the 1950s, the USSR engaged in a cooperative technology transfer program with the PRC under which they taught Chinese students and provided the fledgling program with a sample R-2 rocket.

    In 1994, Russia sold some of its advanced aviation and space technology to the Chinese. In 1995 a deal was signed between the two countries for the transfer of Russian Soyuz spacecraft technology to China.

    Included in the agreement was training, provision of Soyuz capsules, life support systems, docking systems, and space suits.

    In 1996 two Chinese astronauts, Wu Jie and Li Qinglong, began training at the Yuri Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Centre in Russia.

    After training, these men returned to China and proceeded to train other Chinese astronauts at sites near Beijing and Jiuquan.

    Let’s look at rocket engines now…the Russians have had the most advanced and most powerful rocket engine for decades…the RD170…

    This engine with over 1.6 million pounds of thrust is the most powerful ever built…it has flown hundreds of missions as part of the Zenit rocket launch system [and its smaller derivative the RD180 is the main launch vehicle for the US]…the RD170 will be the core of the Russian super heavy rockets…

    RD180 and 171 engines

    The Chinese Long March 7 rocket is powered by the YF-100 engine…

    It puts out less than ONE-SIXTH the power of the RD170 at 270,000 pounds of thrust…

    The engine is the heart of the rocket…the rest being basically fuel tanks and of course a payload…so that big rocket the Chinese are planning is going to need a hell of a lot of those little Chinaman engines…all working their little guts out…

    As for a Chinese crewed lunar landing [LOLOLOL]…there are no concrete plans, never mind any actual hardware…

    As of 2019, China was reviewing preliminary studies for a crewed lunar landing mission in the 2030s…

    Now I actually am very pro-China as I have made clear here on many occasions…I consider Mao a great man, as I do Stalin…but it is idiots like you that give everyone a bad name and turn people against you…

    Here is a quote from Mao…

    Unless you have investigated a problem you will be deprived of the right to speak on it.

    Is that too harsh? Not at all! When you have not probed a problem and know nothing of its essentials, or looked into the present facts and their history, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense.

    Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense? It won’t do! It won’t do! You must investigate!

    You must not talk nonsense!”

    That describes you, as I have proved beyond a doubt…talking nonsense here like there is no tomorrow…

    Btw, as a closing thought…from that same WaPo article about the aviation industry dirty politics…

    …Boeing officials already are peddling the idea that government-subsidized competitors from China, Japan and Russia are the real competitive threat looming on the horizon…

    …and strong anti-Russia and anti-China sentiment among voters, it will be many years before a Russian or Chinese airplane is sold into the U.S. market.

    So much for all the nonsense you have spouted here…take a tip from Chairman Mao and keep your mouth shut, if you do not know the essentials of a subject…

    • Replies: @LiveFree
    , @last straw
  227. LiveFree says:

    This guy is a massive Chinese troll. Well-written article but cherry-picked to the max. Sophistic garbage.

  228. @Sam Coulton

    A quick internet search gives me a US homicide rate aboute 5 times that of Australia (1 in 100,000 in 2013-14 v.5 in 100,000). Maybe that would be “negligible” if confined to blacks killing each other in ghettoes but then you hsve the huge US costs of incarceration too.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  229. LiveFree says:
    @FB

    Just another anti-American clown. Your website is a conspiracy theorists wet dream. Lol.

    • Replies: @FB
  230. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @zogborg

    Small numbers of Turks and Mongols achieved amazing things using horses, carrier pigeons, gunpowder, trebuchets, and bows and arrows.
    Today, they have off road vehicles, automatic firearms, modern explosives, and soon, drones.
    There is a lot of anger toward China in Mongolia. But Japan can never remilitarize.

    • Replies: @zogborg
  231. @Wizard of Oz

    Follow up question. Who decides/ officially declares what the consensus is and by what criteria? How is it different from the system in Nazi Germany say 1934-39 whenHitler would have had no problem in winning elections even if genuine opponents had been able to run full campaigns?

  232. FB says: • Website
    @LiveFree

    Great sentence…looked at your commenting history…17 comments totaling 300 words

    That’s about 17 words per comment…I’m sure the entire UNZ community is grateful for your massive contribution here…

    LOLOLOL

    On the positive side…it’s great to see that profoundly retarded individuals now have access to the Internet…

  233. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    1 in 100,000 is comparable to 5 in 100,000, and the US homicide rate was oved 10 per 100,000 40 years ago. For comparison, South Africa’s murder rate is about 50 in 100,000. Venezuela is around 70 per 100,000.

    Minorities aren’t making America violent. On the contrary, our minorities are killing fewer people than white Baby Boomers were in the 1970s-1980s. And we are incarcerating fewer and fewer people with every passing year.

    White nationalists lost the crime bet. Turns out blacks and hispanix will never be as violent in America as Boomers were.

  234. Anonymous[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    I wonder if the China threat you mention is any different from the threat to bomb Iraq into the stone age or the recent one from Trump that the US could annihilate Afghanistan in one week and also obliterate Iran.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/did-trump-just-threaten-to-attack-iran-with-nukes/

    The main difference is that the threat to Iraq was made good leaving the country in tatters to this day, not to mention Libya and Syria although the criminal actions by the US and NATO invoked different lies/pretexts for these latter two countries. Considering the events that unfolded in the ME, China’s threat still remains largely hyperbole.

  235. Half-Jap says:
    @d dan

    Yeah that was hilarious ignorance and/or hubris. The great advancement probably would be the ability to mass produce books, although I’d have to see if maybe the Islamics got to doing that earlier in some form, or in the patent law parlance, whether there were any ‘prior art.’ If true, the europeans were good at improving upon the prior art, particularly for blowing shit up.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  236. Half-Jap says:
    @Showmethereal

    I do find that in this cycle, the pace has been upped significantly.
    As for history, it’s most often recorded by the victors, and their interest is not in recording the facts, or even what might approximate facts, but what justifies all they did in the course of winning, especially on how barbarous/evil/etc the vanquished were, and was deserving of what came.

    • Replies: @d dan
  237. @Godfree Roberts

    Second time lucky…

    Wizard of Oz says:

    Follow up question. Who decides/ officially declares what the consensus is and by what criteria? How is it different from the system in Nazi Germany say 1934-39 whenHitler would have had no problem in winning elections even if genuine opponents had been able to run full campaigns?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  238. @Half-Jap

    IMO, the cycle already ended with modern mass transit and communication.

    Kinda hard to start an insurrection when you are dead/exiled before you even started. With all the high tech surveillance, nothing like it will ever born fruit.

    What barbarian can topple a nuclear armed modern China? As long as CCP does elect a chinese version of Gorbachev, they are 100% safe.

    Modernity is hugely beneficial for China in this regard.

  239. It is remarkable how many commenters, Americans I suppose, are blind to China’s huge net afvantages in becoming the economically and militarily strongest power within 10 or 15 years.

    To start with a much higher quality population in terms of IQ, orderliness and STEM education plus far less waste (counting military and heslthcare spending alone).

    Then, which the boosters of America seem to miss, very able secular technocrats who have been able to learn from the West’s positives and negatives over the last 250 years or so. They would have known how China blew its civilisational lead by an inward looking Imperial sustem, foreign conquest (the Manchus crotically because they brought no civilisational advance) and a tendency to warlordism or “Warring States”. So this time they are not goung to blow it but the test cimes when they do modern civilisation better than everyone else and many people begin to dispute that the CCP has all the answers. Will wise leaders manage a transition to more input from those who dissent from CCP conformity? Or will they soup up the nationalism of the masses (cp. Hitler Youth grown up, Mao’s Red Guards, and a hundred other examplea)?

  240. d dan says:
    @Half-Jap

    “As for history, it’s most often recorded by the victors, and their interest is not in recording the facts, or even what might approximate facts, but what justifies all they did in the course of winning…”

    I agree that is generally the case. But you may be interested to know some of the exemplary tradition..

    1. Historian was a very honorable profession in ancient China. The official positions were usually held by very esteem family through generations. For example, the “Record of Grand History” was written by the combined lifetime efforts of Sima Qian and his father.

    2. There were many stories of courageous historians who defied the rulers’ wish. In the Spring-Autumn period, the king of Chu (I think) had to successively execute three brothers because they each refused to alter the record according to his wish. The king finally gave up and let the fourth brother to record the truth.

    3. Each dynasty was traditionally responsible to compile and edit the official history of the previous dynasty, presumably to inject additional degree of objectivity.

    4. Since the Tang dynasty, emperors were not allowed to view the historical records of his own reign. (Of course, I am sure there were lots of violations)

    5. Historian was considered as a “check” to the misbehavior of the emperor.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  241. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You just described Japan, and we had this conversation 25 and 75 years ago about them.

    Besides, I’ve been hearing this “China will be the next superpower in 10 years!!!” mantra for over 10 years now.

    In reality, China is an aged, tired old nation like the rest of the developed world with no ambition to speak of.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  242. @Wizard of Oz

    Your questions require some unpacking, since China’s political universe has little in common with ours:

    Who decides/ officially declares what the consensus is and by what criteria?

    One of the most significant differences between us and China is that they have civilizational goals and we don’t.

    Perhaps more significantly, they have shared those goals for 2,500 years and by now, they’re almost genetically imprinted. Ninety-nine percent of Chinese willingly forego present indulgences–a cultural characteristic we find puzzling–so that future generations will achieve the goals.

    The goals are sequenced according the Confucius’ Instruction to Rulers in The Analects: “First enrich the people, then educate them.”

    Mao adopted them as national strategic goals in 1950 and everything consequent to that is what they call ‘Mao Thought,’ thus honoring his visionary courage in challenging a then-destitute nation.

    Confucius first, enriching, stage xiaokang, is usually translated as ‘moderate prosperity.’

    In 1978 Deng Xiaoping called on the Party to achieve xiaokang by the centenary of Mao’s founding of the Party, June 1, 2021.

    In 2011 Prime Minister Wen Jiabao defined xiaokang as ‘a society in which no one is poor and everyone receives an education, has paid employment, more than enough food and clothing, access to medical services, old-age support, a home and a comfortable life’.

    China will reach that goal on June 1, 2021.

    Confucius’ next goal is much more ambitious because his idea of educating people was really emancipating them from egoic bondage (all Chinese goals, including liberation, are collective!) into a state he called dàtóng.

    Mao’s favorite definition of dàtóng, which he quoted often, is from Kang Youwei’s Liyun zhu (Commentary on Liyun), here abridged:

    Now to have states, families, and selves is to allow each individual to maintain a sphere of selfishness. This infracts utterly the Universal Principle (gongli) and impedes progress. …Therefore, not only states should be abolished, so that there would be no more struggle between the strong and the weak; families should also be done away with, so that there would no longer be inequality of love and affection [among men]; and, finally, selfishness itself should be banished, so that goods and services would not be used for private ends. … The only [true way] is sharing the world in common by all (tienxia weigong) … To share in common is to treat each and every one alike. There should be no distinction between high and low, no discrepancy between rich and poor, no segregation of human races, no inequal- ity between sexes. … All should be educated and supported with the common property; none should depend on private possession. … This is the way of the Great Community, dàtóng which prevailed in the Age of Universal Peace.

    In his public apology after he was dropped from the ticket following the failure of the Great Leap Forward–which he hoped would achieve dàtóng in one generation–Mao said, “We rushed into a great catastrophe. The communes were organized too quickly. The Great Leap has been a partial failure for which we have paid a high price. The chaos was on a grand scale and I take responsibility for it..The transition to a dàtóng society might take longer than I had envisaged, perhaps as many as twenty Five Year Plans, but the drive to attain it should never be abandoned.”

    Every leader since Mao has reiterated Mao’s dàtóng pledge (Taiwan’s national anthem does, too) but the Party has not set a deadline for it because they are still crossing the river by feeling the stones. But they have set some intermediate goals.

    Xi announced that, between 2021-2035, China will focus on becoming more egalitarian–in both wealth and income–than Finland, the world’s current leader. In 2012 Xi began promoting provincial officials based on their GINI stats and progress has been rapid, so that the 2035 GINI goal seems doable.

    The second goal, another necessary precondition for dàtóng, is more ambitious and is set for 2049: “Making China a great, modern socialist country, prosperous, strong, democratic, culturally advanced, harmonious and beautiful, and building a world without conflicts, with equal development opportunities for everyone and all peoples be blessed with happiness.”

    Beyond that, only visionaries and planners have a clue, I suspect.

    I hope that this explanation obviates answering your question about Hitler who, despite the bad press he has received, was a normal, charismatic, democratically elected, Western leader who was scapegoated for the failures of two generations of similar, immature, bellicose, selfish leaders like him.

    There are no ‘opponents’ to Xi and his successors in that Western sense. Everyone knows where they’re going, everyone wants to get there and, by definition, they know they won’t be there until they’re all there together.

    Very Confucian. Very Chinese.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  243. denk says:

    George Kennan,,,,,

    We dont need no stinking competition.
    We got the C I A,
    If you cant beat them, waste the [email protected]#$%^!

    ———————————————
    Exhibit 1
    Chinese workers murdered in …Afghan,

    “Chinese workers become the victims of economic rivalry among various companies as many foreign firms including Turkish and US ones try to monopolize rebuilding projects in Afghanistan,” said an analyst on condition of anonymity.

    “Chinese laborers are cheap and their work is best known for their high standard. That is why rival companies want to get them out of biding for rebuilding projects in post-war Afghanistan,” he stressed.

    http://en.people.cn/200406/21/eng20040621_147032.html

    Exhibit 2
    Sudan…
    The UsualSuspects playing both sides.

    *If one asks the question “who benefits from the South Sudanese civil war?” the answer is clear. The USA is presently the only beneficiary of the ongoing horrors in South Sudan, for this latest round of conflict has once again shut down the Chinese run oil fields in the country.

    The USA has determined that it’s in its “national interests” to deprive China of access to Africa’s oil fields and has succeeded in its goal of again shutting down Chinese oil production in Sudan, the only majority Chinese owned oil field in Africa.

    What other evidence links the USA to the South Sudanese civil war?

    Thanks to Wikileaks, we know that the USA via the CIA has been paying the salaries of the South Sudanese Army (SPLA) since 2009. In other words, both the soldiers (“rebels”) supporting Riek Machar and the soldier supporting President Salva Kiir are being paid by the USA, paid to kill each other?

    https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2014/01/23/usa-vs-china-in-south-sudan/

    And more…..

    Stalking Chinese in….
    Pak,
    Mali,
    MH370,
    Indonesia,
    Nepal,
    Bangladesh,
    Sri Lanka,
    Huawei,
    Kidnapping of ms Meng,
    Soloman Isle…

    Tip of an iceberg,

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  244. @Bombercommand

    If the USA falls, who is going fight The Nose’s wars? Not Uncle Chang.

  245. @China PPL and Country

    Very good points. People have no clue what constitutes Han. A Hokkien and a Hakka are both “Han Chinese” but are as different as a Serbian is from an Austrian – including language. Or an Akan and a Yoruba. Live in the region of a continent but very different. They dont get Chinese is a civilation – not an ethnicity. A Miao or Zhang or Hmong could call themselves Han if they want to and keep their customs and local language (even while everyone learns Mandarin). They just choose not too – so are considered a “minority”.

  246. @Wizard of Oz

    Agred with your comment… But the blame isnt all on the Manchu Qing…. It was the Ming who gave up China’s military lead. Zheng He’s ships were about 100 years ahead of European tech and the navigational skills were ahead as well (but not as much). So when the British came knocking China was now 100 years behind in naval technology. That is how they got invaded. Had they kept trading they would have learned of the changes going on. They would have industrialized before even Japan. In actuality the country probably would have turned to communism in the 1st place. History would be a lot different in many ways. One being western nations would never have had colonies in East and South East Asia. There would be no South China Sea dispute right now. But hey its all what if’s… History is what it is. But i think the blame is on the Ming more than the Qing.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  247. zogborg [AKA "mousie dung"] says:
    @Sam Coulton

    Do you really see a Mongolian military resurgence coming? Hard to believe when their technology is most likely primitive, unless they get Russian backing or something. I think Japan is still doing their best to keep China in check. Japan and Vietnam have stepped up their naval cooperation over the past 2 years, not to mention Japan’s friendly ties with India.

    • Replies: @denk
  248. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Godfree Roberts

    Panic Behind The Scenes: China’s Capital Outflows Are Soaring
    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/panic-behind-scenes-chinas-capital-outflows-are-soaring

    Shanghai Housing Sales Plunge 86% In Golden Week
    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/shanghai-housing-sales-plunge-86-golden-week

    “Worst Slump In A Generation”: China Auto Sales Continue Historic Collapse
    https://www.zerohedge.com/personal-finance/worst-slump-generation-china-auto-sales-continue-historic-collapse

    “Regards” onebornfree

  249. @Sam Coulton

    I suspect that your broad brush approach is a bit superficial. Your dates for Japan are certainly way out. It was from about 1965 to 1990 that the Japan enthusiasts went over the top with their extrapolations of Japanese economic growth and fortunes to be made out of Japanese shares.

    After years of vety rspid population growth and then the one child policy Chinese demohraphics are certainly unusual but another vommenter had given figures which suggest the China has a considerably younger population than the US. My emphasis would be simoly on the absolute size of China”s population being 4 times that of the US.

    • Agree: John Arthur
    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Sam Coulton
  250. @Showmethereal

    Well yes, much as Mrs. Clinton is responsible for not defeating Mr. Trump 🙂

  251. @Half-Jap

    Have you considered that the invention of printing may have been a turning point, possibly combined with Protestantism’s enthusiasm for Bible Christianity and the vernacular Bible? An English carpenter’s bright 8 year old boy could be expected to learn to read in 6 months and then be sent off to live with the apprentice master. For most Chinese boys the task of learning to read and write would take too long for it to suit the family economy.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  252. @Wizard of Oz

    Like I have been saying, even when you adjust for differences in population, China’s workforce to population ratio is 20% larger than the United States. If the average Chinese was as productive as the average American, then their per-capita GDP would be 20% larger than ours.
    They only need to be as 80% as productive as the median American worker to have an equal Per-Capita GDP at PPP.
    Japan never had that advantage

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  253. @denk

    I went to lectures by the famous George Kennan and the words you purport to quote were not likely io be uttered by that George Kennan. Where do get them from?

    • Replies: @denk
  254. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ???

    Nobody said China was considerably younger than the USA; China is OLDER. Median age in China is 37 vs. 36.

    What you referred to was a racist who said White Americans were older than Chinese Han, something that is also demonstratably false.

    The size of a country has nothing to do with its age. China has an inverted age pyramid.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  255. What should we do then?

    “We” (US) should drop the Global Domination Project and instead promote multipolar balance in Eurasia. China will inevitably become the strongest pole. The key US imperative will be to limit China’s dominance of Eurasia (and by extension the world). How? By helping strengthen non-Chinese entities.

    Where to start? Strengthen the weakest entity, Dar al-Islam. Expose the 9/11 false flag that launched a phony counterproductive war on Islam for Israel. Use sympathy for the 27 million Muslims killed in the $7 trillion 9/11 wars to turn public opinion 180 degrees. Get out of the way and let the Muslim-majority lands unify into one or more Muslim superstates, as a strong majority of the population in those lands desires. Then support the new Muslim superstate(s) as a strategic counterweight to China (and Russia, Europe, and India).

    China’s persecution of Muslims could help open the door to a US-Islamic alliance promoting a peaceful, balanced multipolar world.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @denk
  256. @AaronB

    Elite Chinese computer science grads cannot match average US cs grads. US grads dramatically outperformed their Chinese counterparts.

    Did you even read the article yourself to which you linked?

    Correction: A previous version stated that the average US students performed better than their elite peers from China, India and Russia; the two factions in fact perform essentially the same.

    Average American students do NOT outperform Chinese and other foreign elites. With the laughable math skills of American students, I anticipate parity in the near future between Chinese and America’s elite programmers.

    On the other hand, China and U.S. are in intense competition in computer technology.

    So much for the best Chinese students choosing to stay home because their education is so much better lol.

    You are obvious clueless about China. First rate Chinese students indeed stay home. For example, the chief designer of China’s J-20 fifth gen. fighter, who skipped high school and went to college at 16, never studied overseas.

    Nowadays, Chinese companies prefer Chinese college graduates over those studied overseas, because they know that Chinese academic programs are more rigorous.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  257. @FB

    Why don’t you just admit the obvious that Russia does not have a competent civil aviation industry internationally currently? It will actually demonstrate your rationality and boost your credibility.

    I will readily admit the following:

    – China received tremendous help in military aviation, missile, and air-dense technologies from Russia in the past 30 years, when China has been under western arms-embargo since 1989.
    – China owes its manned space-technology to Russia.
    – Russia will help China to build up missile defense, and I hope they will integrate the two, because a joint Russia-China missile defense system probably works better than 2 independent ones.

    I think most Chinese in their right mind are thankful for Russia’s help.

    As for rocket technology, I think China is making great strides nowadays. Just look at the CZ-5 rocket system and the future 4,000 ton class rocket system.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @FB
    , @d dan
    , @FB
  258. MEFOBILLS says:
    @John Arthur

    They only need to be as 80% as productive as the median American worker to have an equal Per-Capita GDP at PPP.
    Japan never had that advantage

    Economics used to be called political economy. Sociology was created by Simon Patten, an American economist. Thorstein Vleben, a Swedish American economist had much to say on Social aspects as well.

    In other words, it all boils down to economy, and then money, and if you leave that variable out of account, you become confused.

    Yes, population statistics matter, especially working age males, but it is knock on effect, not a primary variable.

    Japan ran an industrial capitalism economy during the war years, and post war up until plaza accord in 1985. You may also recall that the bubble economics of the west, especially (((Stanley Fishcher)) was imposed on Japan starting around then.

    Japan took raw materials as inputs by ship, and then exported finished goods. Japan then took the increment of production as profits. Some call this the asian export model.

    Japan used CREDIT GUIDANCE WINDOWS to channel new bank credit into INDUSTRIAL SECTORS. OK?

    See “princes of the yen” by Werner for an in-depth explanation of the credit guidance windows that Japan secretly used to run their industrial economy.

    China does exactly the same thing with their industrial capitalism. China brings in raw materials by ship on their Eastern Coast, and then exports finished goods and takes the increment of production as profit. China uses their state banks to channel bank credit into productivity and industrial sectors.

    Even a small island nation, if it has access to raw materials, and also uses industrial capitalism, will out-perform western finance capitalism.

    The U.S. could easily out-perform Japan or China, or most any country. How? Simple, go back to the American system of economy, whereby the money power is reconstituted under political control, as the founders intended.

    The U.S. is a continental country with natural tributaries and plenty of natural resources.

    You only need a smart fraction to engineer and create…. you do not need an overall high IQ population, although that is desirable.

    From a very small population base (40 million) Canada did amazing things when they ran industrial capitalism economy from 1938 to 1974. Likewise, America did well when she ran her industrial capitalism economy from 1868 to 1912. Germany did well under Frederick Lists methods during the Kaiser years, and Hitler resurrected the system starting in 1933.

    People that don’t understand money or economy get all wound up about population statistics and culture and the like, when the overwhelming dominant variable is the money.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  259. AaronB says:
    @last straw

    Ah, my apologies, average US students only perform as well as elite Chinese students 🙂

    And elite US students “surge ahead…”, according to the article. Elite Chinese students aren’t even in the same ballpark.

    So, obviously, Chinese education isn’t even close to what’s available in the US, and if the smartest Chinese students stay at home, then Chinese intelligence is a myth.

    Thank you for proving my point.

    And yes, I do believe you that the best Chinese students stay at home. Or at least, the most ambitious, conformist, and loyal.

    Attending an elite Chinese institution is a test of loyalty and conformity. Any seriously ambitious Chinese will seek to attend these local schools, because there will be certain social penalties to going overseas. It’s the same in Japan.

    Whether these are the best and most creative of Chinese students I don’t know. Maybe they are.

    Either way, Chinese students staying in China appear to significantly lag behind America, especially at the elite level. If they are the best, this proves my point even more lol.

    Face it – China has a huge number of people of ok intelligence, but few highly intelligent people. This fits perfectly with Chinese history and with Chinese performance in the US. Large numbers in the middle, few at the top. Competence, but no brilliance. China has always struggled at elite performance.

    China was not called the Middle Kingdom for nothing.

    And you will just destroy yourselves through the strain of trying to be what you cannot he, brilliant. Give up and do what you do best.

  260. MEFOBILLS says:
    @onebornfree

    Panic Behind The Scenes: China’s Capital Outflows Are Soaring

    China has created a mid-tier of private banks. This middle tier of banks borrows large amounts from the State Banks, and then turns around and arbitrages new loans for housing.

    This causes a run up in pricing on housing, and also puts additional private Yuan derived credit into the economy.

    China is making a mistake using Lolbertarian and neo-liberal economics in this case. Fortunately, China’s elites are putting the brakes on this privateer mechanism.

    China could also put capital controls in place and stop the outflows anytime they wanted.

    Shanghai Housing Sales Plunge 86% In Golden Week

    Many Chinese have taken to speculation by buying extra homes and not living in them. The laws are being changed in this regard, so you have to look at the big picture rather than post meaningless statistics. Lolbertarian and neo-liberal economics is false, junk economy.

    Worst Slump In A Generation”: China Auto Sales Continue Historic Collapse

    From a historic high. You could look at this as a correction. Again, lying with numbers and not putting things into context.

    One thing that China does is that they channel new credit into new industry, say electric car manufacture. Then later the laggard competitors are pruned, and their loans are dismissed.

    This then leaves behind a lean mean competitor and new industrial capacity.

    Lolbertarians do not have the answers, and are part of the problem.

  261. MEFOBILLS says:
    @AaronB

    Competence, but no brilliance. China has always struggled at elite performance.

    China was not called the Middle Kingdom for nothing.

    And you will just destroy yourselves through the strain of trying to be what you cannot he, brilliant. Give up and do what you do best.

    Read my earlier comment about why you only need a smart fraction. China does have a smart fraction of genius.

    At the very high range of genius, it tends to be white men. It is a percentage issue, where the white race produces more extreme genius and more retards than is the north-east asian case.

    North East Asians have a tighter distribution, but they still produce a smart fraction. And, if you have a large population base then the total number could exceed the white smart fraction total.

    Don’t worry about China, they will do fine. They are running an industrial capitalist economy, and they will get new additional inputs of raw materials and energy from the new silk road. They can pivot any time now, away from the mercantilist atlantacist export model and turn on internal consumption, while also exporting goods along the silk road.

    There are enough Chinese of middling intelligence to man bureaucracy and run civil society. China does not have the Jew problem, nor are they importing a permanent underclass.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  262. AaronB says:
    @MEFOBILLS

    Of course China will do fine. I like China and the Chinese, although I do not like the current Chinese system.

    I’m just correcting the silly nonsense we’re hearing these days about the superior Asians etc. Whenever I hear silliness that goes to an extreme I feel a need to correct it. In the 19th century I would have been on the side of China against the West, when everyone thought Westerners were more intelligent and superior.

    I also get annoyed when real world facts are considered less important than abstractions – like Chinese have higher math IQ supposedly, but all the genius mathematicians have been white and continue to be white. At a certain point you just have to see the emperor has no clothes.

    The Chinese are a perfectly intelligent people who will do just fine. But they are also not especially intelligent or capable, that’s all.

    As for the current Chinese system, it has its source in the least interesting and least attractive aspect of Chinese culture, Legalism. Occasionally, China lapses into its stupidest traditions, and the resulting system becomes horrifically oppressive but then collapses soon after.

    The Chinese nightmare of total oppression will never come to fruition – in a few decades, the whole system will collapse.

    • Replies: @d dan
  263. @MEFOBILLS

    This is very interesting. I always knew that Henry Clay’s ideas were integral to growth post civil war.
    Ill look into it, I suspect you may be onto something.
    I agree that population can be overrated, a small population obviously dont hinder Bermuda and Singapore, both with the highest living standards in the world.

  264. Winston says:
    @AaronB

    You keep bragging about elite US students as if they comprise your idea of supreme people (i.e. Jews). Have you not noticed that the majority of those elite US students are of Chinese descent? Just look at the finalists of the USA Computing Olympiad from 2014-2018:

    http://www.usaco.org/

    And if you truly believe your own words that “the best Chinese students stay at home”, you would naturally agree that even those Chinese students that dominate the US elite students are only second-rate (because the smartest stay in China). No wonder that 6 out of the top 10 students in this year’s International Olympiad in Informatics are of Chinese descent. https://ranking.ioi2019.az/

    Unlike most Westners, Jews, and Indians, Chinese culture values humbleness and doesn’t consider cockiness/chutzpah a positive trait, which is why Chinese foreign policy emphasizes 韬光养晦 (hiding one’s talent and keeping a low profile). One of the advantages of such attitude is that, as AI scientist Andrew Ng pointed out, “China has a fairly deep awareness of what’s happening in the English-speaking world, but the opposite is not true.”

    Heck. China even restricted its information security researchers from participating in global hacking competitions, despite the fact that “China’s hackers routinely win, sweeping the board.”

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/16/chinese-hackers-pwn2own-no-go/

  265. onebornfree says: • Website

    Rap: Marx vs. Mises [Communism vs. Capitalism]:

    “Is history marching inevitably towards centrally planned socialism, as Karl Marx proclaimed? Or is the best path to continued progress and expanding prosperity liberal, democratic capitalism as recommended by Ludwig von Mises? ”

    Regards, onebornfree

  266. Harbinger says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    If the spreadsheet at the end is true, tell me, how on earth does one make a profit on selling goods well below the minimum wage? Here is the UK, I can buy a T-shirt online for a couple of pounds. They’ll also be selling them and making a profit, obviously.

    China and India are renowned for sweat shops.
    I assume you’ve obviously missed articles like this?
    And I presume you also missed articles like this?

    China’s economy is booming, or should I state it’s a world behemoth in production, BECAUSE they pay low wages.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  267. @AaronB

    Ah, my apologies, average US students only perform as well as elite Chinese students

    How would the average American students do if the exam is administered in Chinese or Russian?

    And elite US students “surge ahead…”, according to the article. Elite Chinese students aren’t even in the same ballpark.

    Do they really surge ahead in real life? For example, what did the Boeing fiasco tell us? Furthermore, computer programmers are only a very small part of STEM. They are very disciplined, like performing musicians, but not necessarily the most creative ones. You need many many more other types of scientists and scholars to create and develop cutting edge R&D programs.

    So, obviously, Chinese education isn’t even close to what’s available in the US, and if the smartest Chinese students stay at home, then Chinese intelligence is a myth.

    You just made some blind assertions. Did you even read the links I provided?
    Chinese academic institutions are top notch.
    Chinese high quality research papers surged 16% last year.

    Attending an elite Chinese institution is a test of loyalty and conformity. Any seriously ambitious Chinese will seek to attend these local schools, because there will be certain social penalties to going overseas. It’s the same in Japan.

    I don’t know Japan. But competition into China’s top colleges is cut-throat fierce, ACADEMICALLY. Your claim again exposed your lack of knowledge about China.

    Either way, Chinese students staying in China appear to significantly lag behind America, especially at the elite level. If they are the best, this proves my point even more lol.

    Stop repeating your conjecture. You proved nothing. On the contrary, the two links above already proved that your claim is totally false.

  268. @FvS

    I agree that it looks very bad indeed, but I doubt that it is legal in China. I would like to know how that played out in the end, if it is a real case. Interesting that it was all recorded! How does FvS know that it is genuine and not a scene from a play or propaganda?

  269. FB says: • Website
    @last straw

    Why don’t you just admit the obvious that Russia does not have a competent civil aviation industry internationally currently? It will actually demonstrate your rationality and boost your credibility.

    Wow…what a mouthy little punk…

    My credibility is just fine with people that count…top scientists, some of whom are in fact household names…

    As for this site, maybe you should ‘investigate’ before talking nonsense, as Mao advised…you will find that many readers here appreciate my contributions regarding real technical knowledge about aerospace topics…

    For instance here, where I discuss in detail the aerodynamics of modern fighter aircraft…something I’m actually qualified to do…

    @FB

    I really appreciate your detailed technical insight into the variety of weapons systems that you have commented on (this site and others). You have a knack of being able to explain complicated concepts in a manner that non-specialists can easily understand.

    So really I’m not too concerned what a little pissant like you has to say about my ‘credibility’…

    For the benefit of those readers here who I just mentioned [not for tree monkeys] I will proceed to give some insights into the real state of Chinese aerospace technology…which is making progress but still has a long way to go in order to approach anything resembling ‘world class…’

    Let’s start with the Long March 5 [aka CZ-5]…little pissant claims…

    As for rocket technology, I think China is making great strides nowadays. Just look at the CZ-5 rocket system and the future 4,000 ton class rocket system.

    Yeah…let’s look at that shall we…2 July 2017

    The second launch of China’s new-generation Long March-5 carrier rocket failed Sunday — dealing a blow to the country’s ambitious space aspirations.

    Two launches…one failure…

    As of right now, two years have passed and no attempt has been made at a third launch…the YF-77 engine has been undergoing design changes, but there is no date yet for when it’s going to fly again…

    But just for some perspective let’s compare this Long March 5 science project with established launch systems of the same class…

    The French Ariane 5 [with input from other Euro countries] has made 105 launches…with 100 successes…

    The Russian Proton family has made over 420 flights…375 full successes, since its introduction in 1965, nearly 55 years ago…most of those failures were in the early days…

    The contemporary Proton M has had 9 failures out of 108 flights since its first flight in 2001…

    So as an actual aerospace engineer [with plenty of actual credibility] I would say to the layman that this data speaks for itself…the Chinese heavy-lift capability is presently where Russia was 55 years ago…and where the French program was about 20 years ago…

    We should also mention the US here…The Atlas V [which is powered by Russian RD180 engines] has made 79 successful flights out of 80 launches since 2002…

    Now all of the above rockets are in the 20 ton payload class and have a launchpad mass of about 600 to 800 tons.

    Yet we are here presented by a pissant punk talking about a Chinese 4,000 ton rocket…far bigger than anything that has ever flown…[and we remind that even the 800 ton Long March 5 is off to a very rocky start in its first two launch attempts…]

    Now folks…I don’t think you all need to be a rocket scientist to understand that a big rocket needs big engines…do you expect to put a Honda Civic engine in a tractor-trailer…?

    Where are those Chinese big engines…?

    Answer…they don’t actually exist…

    But let’s look at the engine issue in a little more detail…

    The Long March 5 uses four strap on boosters, each with two YF100 engines…

    Now I had already mentioned those briefly in a previous post, but let’s take a little deeper dive…

    A high efficiency/high thrust environmentally-friendly rocket engine was always an objective within Programme 863 in the 1980s; however, Chinese industry was not mature enough at that time to produce such a rocket until they obtained RD-120 in the early 1990s from Russia following the collapse of the USSR.

    It is the first Chinese rocket engine to adopt the staged-combustion cycle and the most powerful to date.

    So once again we see the vaunted Chinese ‘brainpower’ at work here…getting key aerospace technology from elsewhere…we will get into this in more detail once we start discussing passenger jets more thoroughly…

    Now I had already mentioned that the YF100 has just 270,000 lbs of thrust…one-sixth that of the Russian RD170, and less than a third of the RD180 that the US uses…

    It also has not been able to achieve the specific impulse of the Russian engine it is copying…specific impulse being the cardinal parameter of rocket engine performance…

    So let’s count the engines…each of the four boosters uses two YF100 engines…that’s eight engines for the boosters…

    Now the core stage of the Long March 5 [two flights…one failure] uses a hydrogen engine called the YF77…two of those are used, and these are even smaller at 160,000 lbs thrust each…

    So that is ten engines total for an 800 ton total mass rocket that [it is hoped] can at some point in the future loft about 20 tons into low earth orbit…

    In order to lift 100 tons, as with the super heavy launchers like the Russian Energiya [using those huge RD170 engines] or the US space shuttle…this big future Chinese rocket will then require 50 engines…

    How feasible is that…?

    But the Chinese are already talking about a Long March 9, that will, it is hoped, be able to lift a massive 140 tons to LEO…

    Its first flight is expected in 2030 in preparation for a lunar landing sometime in the 2030s…

    Mm hmm…you gotta love the Chinese chutzpah…they are the LAST major power to even field just a 20-ton heavy lift rocket [based on engine technology bought from Russia]…

    And after only two flights [ONE FAILURE]…they are going to put I guess 70 fucking Chinaman engines on this 140 ton payload super heavy…?

    Talk about a pipe dream…

    The one thing I can see where the Han excel is in BIG FUCKING HEADS…

    …based on very little actual accomplishment…if they are able to build a rocket engine to match the size of their inflated heads then we will all sit up and take notice, I’m sure…

    Until that time, I think Mr Roberts needs to cool his ‘jets’ a little bit…it’s quite clear that he is puffing up quite ridiculous notions about ‘Chinese technology’ that have ZERO BASIS IN REALITY…

    I will continue with this discussion of Chinese aerospace capabilities in subsequent posts…it seems quite necessary in the face the complete nonsense we are seeing here from various pissants who have zero actual knowledge about the subject…

  270. @John Arthur

    This is one more major advantage that China possess, yet once again is only 28% bigger in PPP terms and has only half our net wealth.

    Considering that a mere 70 years ago China was one of the poorest countries on earth and was attacked militarily by NATO in 1950-1953 and was embargoed and boycotted and attacked by the Western powers for the next 17 or so years and was sabotaged by the Soviet leadership in the ’60s and all this 70 years the USA has been robbing the rest of the world I think you are being a bit (How shall I put it?) smug, complacent and unfair. Fatuously so, if you don’t mind my saying so!

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @John Arthur
  271. d dan says:
    @AaronB

    “… Chinese have higher math IQ supposedly, but all the genius mathematicians have been white and continue to be white….”

    I am not fan of IQ, but really, you can’t see both of these statements can be true? If not, you have a very rigid mind.

    For example, if China has 10,000 math genius, and US has only 100, it is still perfectly possible that US gets more Field Medals and other top awards, and achieves more breakthroughs. Why? Because the math genius in China might prefer to run his family business, or was recruited by PLA to build their aircraft carrier.

    Many people don’t follow the life laid down and predicted by the silly stratification of the IQ bands, especially if you are comparing two culturally and politically vastly different countries.

    “But they are also not especially intelligent or capable, that’s all.”

    You have no basis for this statement, other than your own stereotyping (or wish, or racism?) [Disclaimer: I am not claiming they are.]

    • Replies: @AaronB
  272. @Sam Coulton

    What do you say are the respective figures for medoan age of Han and (a) White American (b) Non Hispanic White American? Sources?

    Don’t you think the huge advantage in “smart fraction” (still ,not fully trained up) and the enormous disparity both in absolute terms and proportion between American and Han STEM students and graduates – quite apart from average IQ and culture – is going to overwhelm American (not least PNAC subscribers) pretensions?

  273. @foolisholdman

    NATO? I like to know whose off-the-top-of-the-head statements of fact I can rely on.

    • Agree: John Arthur
  274. d dan says:
    @last straw

    Russia is obviously falling behind China in science and engineering (as measured by objective figures like the number of patents, published papers, cited papers…) But they are still sitting on pile of very advanced military-related achievements inherited from the Soviet era.

    The difficult problem for them is how to utilize those technologies to drive their civilian economy, and reinvest the proceed in R&D to maintain their competitive edge. In that sense, China seems to be the perfect partner to Russia.

    @FB clearly doesn’t like Chinese, but that is his personal problem. Fortunately, Russian leader seems to be ok with China.

    • Replies: @last straw
  275. @Harbinger

    T-shirts costs run 5¢ in materials, 0.5¢ in automatic cutting, 10¢ in sewing, 5¢ for screening, 2¢ for packing, 3¢ shipping to the UK. They sell for two quid. Plenty for everyone.

    China may be ‘renowned’ for sweatshops in our media, but not in real life. The Foxconn stories began as a scam which Tim Cook addressed here https://youtu.be/dTX2Cv-bkmI.

    Foxconn is like WalMart: it’s a Taiwanese company that employs huge numbers of poorly educated youngsters for minimum wages but makes it up with overtime, free meals and cheap accommodation. They’ve fought unionization for years and local governments tolerate them because…they employ huge numbers of poorly educated youngsters.

    Countless interviews with the kids who work there make it clear that they’re able to live better than they did in their home village and send money home and even buy iPhones.

    Even though they’re in the bottom income quartile, their take home wages have doubled every ten years for the past 40 years and are on track to do so again.

  276. @onebornfree

    1990. China’s economy has come to a halt. The Economist
    1996. China’s economy will face a hard landing. The Economist
    1998. China’s economy’s dangerous period of sluggish growth. The Economist
    1999. Likelihood of a hard landing for the Chinese economy. Bank of Canada
    2000. China currency move nails hard landing risk coffin. Chicago Tribune
    2001. A hard landing in China. Wilbanks, Smith & Thomas
    2002. China Seeks a Soft Economic Landing. Westchester University
    2003. Banking crisis imperils China. New York Times
    2004. The great fall of China? The Economist
    2005. The Risk of a Hard Landing in China. Nouriel Roubini
    2006. Can China Achieve a Soft Landing? International Economy
    2007. Can China avoid a hard landing? TIME
    2008. Hard Landing In China? Forbes
    2009. China’s hard landing. China must find a way to recover. Fortune
    2010: Hard landing coming in China. Nouriel Roubini
    2011: Chinese Hard Landing Closer Than You Think. Business Insider
    2012: Economic News from China: Hard Landing. American Interest 
    2013: A Hard Landing In China. Zero Hedge 
    2014. A hard landing in China. CNBC
    2015. Congratulations, You Got Yourself A Chinese Hard Landing. Forbes 
    2016. Hard landing looms for China. The Economist
    2017. Is China’s Economy Going To Crash? National Interest
    2018. China’s Coming Financial Meltdown. The Daily Reckoning.
    2019 China’s Economic Slowdown: How worried should we be? BBC

    • Replies: @denk
  277. @Kevin Barrett

    The only people who accuse China of persecuting Muslims and the people who are currently bombing Muslims: NATO.

    Actual Muslims–dozens of whom have inspected Xinjiang and the facilities in question, praise them.

    That is why you hear zero criticism of China’s Xinjiang policies from actual Muslims.

    Gökhan Karakaş, a reporter for Turkish daily Milliyet who visited Xinjiang in person last July, “Walking in the streets in Xinjiang, we can feel local residents live a stable and happy life. What impressed me most is that many Uighur dance in the streets at night and they were happy as they like.”

    “The vocational education and training centers in Xinjiang are not ‘concentration camps’ as described by some Western media, but schools to help those influenced by extreme thoughts to eliminate the harmful thoughts and learn vocational skills,” said Leela Mani Paudyal, the Nepalese ambassador to China, during the visit.

    “Every student I saw here is happy. They learn not only laws and regulations, Standard Chinese, but also professional skills, which I believe will give them an edge to adapt to the society after graduation and become a strong competitor in the job market,” said the ambassador.

    Karunasena Kodituwakku, Sri Lanka’s ambassador to China, said the education and training centers provide a “platform to eradicate extremism,” which is beneficial to the trainees and the stability and development of the society as a whole. “This anti-terrorism example is worthy of learning by many countries,” he said.

    Here’s a full report from one of the most prominent Muslim women in the world: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/pakistan/no-cultural-religious-repression-of-uighur-muslims-in-xinjiang-pakistan-diplomat/articleshow/67675590.cms

    • Agree: Iris
    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Biff
    , @Iris
  278. @foolisholdman

    Not at all. I am aware how quickly geopolitical fortunes can change. My point is given China’s enourmous potential, one which it has had for centuries, needs to be acknowledged to place China’s current growth in context.
    No one says that France should change its model when India suprassed it in GDP, because people understand that India’s population and workforce is ginormous compared to France.
    China’s demographic potential today is the best any country has had in all of human history. If it attains even a fraction of that potential, that would make it dramatically bigger than the US economy and number 1.
    So China becoming #1 does not necessarily mean that its policies are something we must emulate. They could be something worth emulating, but you can’t conclusively say that looking at its growth, since China becoming 1/5 as productive as the average US worker gives it a larger economy.
    As I showcased upthread if China’s productivity was as good as the average White American worker, then its economy would be around 140 TRILLION DOLLARS !!!
    The commentators on this thread are saying because China is bigger than the US, and it is growing faster, that must mean the policy in the US is bad. That could be true, but this sort of argument is inummerate.
    Malaysia is growing faster than Singapore and has a dramatically larger economy, but no one in their right mind would say that Singapore is worse run than Malaysia. Everyone knows which country is the objectively better one for their citizens.
    In this case, China is like Malaysia but with a high IQ, so the differences are even starker.
    Anyways the Net Wealth comparison is supposed to put things in context. If China’s workforce is 5 times as big as the US, and has a higher IQ, how hard would it be to just obtain 1/5(!!!) of US wealth per capita and match the US’s net wealth? That hardly showcases any particular competency on the behalf of the Chinese leaders to be only halfway there to this simple goal…

  279. AaronB says:
    @d dan

    Of course, anything is possible.

    However, China and Chinese have placed special emphasis on “catching up with” – really overtaking – the West, and excelling in technology and science.

    And winning Fields medals and the like requires incredible devotion and effort. I suppose it’s possible that every Chinese person who makes this effort, will then suddenly decide on a non math related career.

    And I suppose it’s possible that out of a billion plus people, over the past 100 years, despite trying so hard to match the West in science, all genius level Chinese mathematicians simply opted for different careers.

    And I suppose its possible that the race that is said to have special aptitude for math, and who have been heavily focusing on math and science, simply had had their most talented people choose different careers for the past 100 years.

    Of course, what area of science or technology does China really excel at then? Where did all this exceptional talent go? Into PLA carriers? Which are worse than Western carriers?

    Into Huwaei? Into 5G?

    This is the summit of technological achievement? Or, I suppose, all the exceptional science talent in China just decided to go into gardening and painting perhaps…

    At what point are we allowed to declare the emperor has no clothes?

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @d dan
  280. @Godfree Roberts

    Yep, China’s policies toward the Uighers is not optimal, but the goal of trying to integrate them into a modernizing country needs to be appluaded.
    Unlike the UK, where underadvantaged Muslims get spun off into Ghettos and begin raping and grooming girls, China’s attempt to help the Muslims integrate into what will soon be a 1st world country is the superior solution
    Of course, some of the human rights abuses are real, and they are to be condemmed, but in the long run I feel like this will work out for the Uighers

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  281. Two launches…one failure…

    Again, you do not sound like a real “expert”. A real expert understands that such complex programs may encounter failures and delays. CZ-5 will succeed, and China will build a 4,000 ton class rocket that Russia could only dream of. Wait and see.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  282. @John Arthur

    It worked for the Tibetans, who were in worse shape, so it should work for the Uyghurs.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Erebus
    , @Galan
  283. @d dan

    @FB clearly doesn’t like Chinese, but that is his personal problem. Fortunately, Russian leader seems to be ok with China.

    I don’t know why he is so hung up on the issue of Russia’s civil aviation industry. Also, he seems unaware that China has overtaken Russia in scientific and technology R&D in general, except in a few areas.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  284. Biff says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    The only people who accuse China of persecuting Muslims and the people who are currently bombing Muslims: NATO.

    People only have fealty for other groups(they know nothing about) when it is politically expedient to do so.
    My personal favorite is when the Obama administration had a sudden concern for brown Muslim people in North Africa when they could be used as an ruse to overthrow the Libyan government – all the while he continued to bomb brown Muslim people across multiple Muslim countries. The liberals bought it, and the right wingers didn’t care.

    We now have a congress passing laws for groups that have a made-by-the-media perception of persecution from political adversaries such as the bought and paid for Hong Kong rioters. I’m not sure what the law states but I’m sure it has something to do with money .

    • Replies: @Biff
  285. denk says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    “China is going to collapse soon!”
    “China is going to take over the world!”

    ‘China is a third word shithole’
    ‘China is the greatest threat to our national security’

    When will those murikkanos make up their gawd damned mind ???

    https://www.sott.net/article/421882-Yellow-Peril-Sinophobia-and-Red-Scare-USA-is-on-a-Dangerous-Path

    • Replies: @AaronB
  286. @Godfree Roberts

    Agreed, and China’s ability to keep tight labor markets and fend off Pro-Immigration Business interests will ensure that the wages of Tibetans and Uyghurs will continue to rise fast…
    By the way Godfree, I rather liked your post, despite the fact that I am very skeptical about the skill of Chinese leaders(see comments upthread), I am happy that somebody is having a moment of self-reflection on whether the US is on the right track or not. Our inept Media’s inability to have these discussions is the main reason for America’s current problems today…
    Anyways, these posts are much better than the passive-agressive snark-fests that so infestate this website, at least you cite numbers, which places you in the top echelon of writers here.
    Keep it up!

  287. denk says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Bear in mind that you’r in my bozo file, but Im granting you a one day reprieve…

    George KennaN advocated,

    ‘We should bode no competitior

    Couldnt find that quote now.

    Anyway…..
    That’s the murikkan mantra ever since…..

    U.S. imperialism does not sustain itself by competitive trade, but by force of arms. It is a predatory system maintained by military coercion.

    Exhibit 3
    Africom, stalking China in Africa

    https://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/08/02/obama-summons-africa-washington-talk-trade-and-how-cut-out-china

    • Replies: @anonymous
  288. @last straw

    Agreed: This “FB” character seems quite delusional.
    First of all, he is right that Russia is superior in innovations and scientific output in per capita terms, and will certainly do so for generations to follow
    But, China has 100x the number of engineers that Russia currently possess, and actually has an economy where such innovations can be utilized.
    China’s economy is today $27 trillion at PPP terms
    Russia’s economy is today $3 trillion at PPP terms.
    Is it really implusable that China will in some respects converge to Russia and suprass in a few critical industries of rocketry and aviation?

    • Replies: @FB
  289. AaronB says:
    @denk

    I agree. China is neither this menacing evil genius nor this basket case that will fall apart.

    Both those silly theories deserve each other.

    China is the Middle Kingdom – neither exceptional nor inferior. In the middle. Neither full of math and science and engineering geniuses, nor incapable of competent engineering and worthwhile contributions to science.

    All the hyperbole needs to stop.

    • Replies: @denk
  290. d dan says:
    @AaronB

    “Of course, anything is possible.”

    1. It is not just possible, I am asserting that was what happened. You are dismissive of the suggestion that Chinese talents don’t always follow western career path because this is an idea that is foreign to you. Because you know too little of how the Chinese think, the sacrifice they are willing to give for the sake of their country or their leaders’ calling. (You may think that is silly or stupid, but that is not the point here.)

    Yes, the entire generation of genius did give up state of the art research, e.g. during cultural revolution. Some did it voluntarily, others being forced to. I also can illustrate this with specific examples, the contrasting lives of two contemporary math genius, Hua Loo-Keng and his school-mate S.S.Chern. The former didn’t even finish high school and the later became the world renounced “father” of modern differential geometry. But the stories will take up too much time for me.

    2. You have also grossly underestimated the backwardness they were at the beginning of last century and the difficulties that they needed to overcome. Finally, like many people in the west, you don’t want to recognize their great achievements. Godfree lists some of them, but there are more.

    Of course, you can still say the emperor has no clothes, but any objective person will conclude that as a nation, they have surprised western experts by achieving a lots within a short period of time. It is in great part due to the personal sacrifices of their genius class.

    p/s: As further example, they have almost a century of late start in carrier, but I predict they will soon have electromagnetic launch system, surpassing the entire US carriers fleet (less the Ford-class)

    • Replies: @AaronB
  291. FB says: • Website
    @John Arthur

    China has 100x the number of engineers that Russia currently possess

    Is that right, Einstein…?

    Russia’s economy is today $3 trillion at PPP terms.

    More ‘facts’ from fantasy island…?

    Russia’s GDP per capita at over $29,000 is more than 50 percent higher than China’s at $18,000…

    I guess squirting diarrhea out your nose comes naturally…?

    Or is it an acquired skill…?

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  292. @last straw

    China has overtaken Russia in scientific and technology R&D in general, except in a few areas.

    A few areas that count the most. Russia is concentrating on advanced weapons technologies and that is all that counts in a world of war and turmoil. After all they have enormous wealth to protect from those who would plunder their country, including the Chinese. What’s the point of consumer products? Like you’re going to throw a washing machine at your enemy when he invades you? And do what with your Rolex watch? Trade it for a passage through enemy lines to live like some refugee in a foreign land? So far the Russians seem to be doing the right thing and getting the most blasts for their rubles. Of course there are problems with the oligarch class obsessed with luxuries and decadence and the masses with consumerism and western liberal propaganda and entertainment. They could do with being even leaner and meaner still.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @last straw
    , @foolisholdman
  293. denk says:
    @AaronB

    It works like so….

    The default mode, China sucks !

    “China is going to collapse soon!”

    When time comes for MIC lobbying for largess, hey presto , China suddenly becomes that 200 lb gorilla ‘threatening our national
    security’ !

    hehehhe

  294. AaronB says:
    @d dan

    I think you are the first person to suggest that a genius helps his nation most by not making genius level contributions and not living up to his unique potential (by “sacrificing” his genius) 🙂

    I would have thought the whole point of a genius is he has unique genius level contributions to make to his country’s ability to compete.

    Truly, I now see why the Chinese are so superior. Chinese geniuses refrain from living up to their potential and making genius level contributions, while Western geniuses try their utmost to contribute to their country’s competitive edge.

    Godfree is right – against such Oriental cunning we do not stand a chance.

    China is full of geniuses who will crush the West by refusing to make top contributions in their field of genius.

    We should fold now, while we have a chance.

    • LOL: John Arthur
    • Replies: @d dan
  295. @FB

    Ok, so I was off by a trillion. Still then China’s economy is still $22.5 trillion bigger than Russia’s economy. This does not change the broader point. You really think that an economy of such larger size will not converge in aviation and rocketry, two essential industries.
    China almost certainly has a vast amount of talent that Russia does not possess, even if Russia is vastly more generative than China in per capita terms.
    I will admit a mistake here, 100x is a typo, 10x is what I meant.
    According to the sources you cited, Russia is indeed 50% richer in PPP per capita terms, but is growing 1/6th-1/8th the rate of China’s. How much longer will Russia remain richer than China in PPP per capita terms? If anything, Russia looks like a declining power to me…

    • Replies: @FB
  296. Ber says:
    @Kouros

    Don’t know. The video seems a little bit “convenient”. The moment the video recording is on, she answers the door. looks more like a psyop.

  297. denk says:
    @zogborg

    I think Japan is still doing their best to keep China in check. Japan and Vietnam have stepped up their naval cooperation over the past 2 years, not to mention Japan’s friendly ties with India.

    Indians like to boast how they are ‘friends’ to all the major ‘democracies’ blah blah blah…

    Fact is, India is very adept at whoring itself to whoever has the biggest dick !

    BUt I judge a man by how he treats the small guys around him….

    ‘Bhutan and Nepal are also facing the same problem; the problem of Indian interference in their very personal type of matters. Be it Bhutan, Nepal or Sri Lanka, India always exploits its geographical presence by doing every kind of interference in these countries.

    ……………………………

    R&AW pressures neighbouring countries to strike unequal bilateral treaties as in Nepal. With over 18,000 agents spread all over the world, RAW is believed to have around 12,000 agents just in the neighbouring countries, lending support to non-state actors, secessionists, and pressure groups.”

    jEEze !
    They dont call India the ‘USA of South Asia‘ for nuthin eh ,…no wonder Indian/fukus are such congenial pair,..
    birds of the same feather !

    hehheheh

    P.S.
    For the uninitiated, RAW = Indian intel.
    You never know how many murikkan dummies have never
    heard of this name.

    [MORE]

    Bhutan is a country which shares borders with China and India. The Indian state of Sikkim separates Bhutan from Nepal whereas the Indian states of West Bengal and Assam separate Bhutan from Bangladesh. It is an independent country but India doesn’t seem willing to accept its independence and always treats it as if it were an Indian colony. The people of Bhutan are continuously in a state of agony at the hands of India. In the recent elections in Bhutan, Indian interference was harshly and severely criticized by the local people. During the elections, Bhutanese media and the society gave a strong impression that India is an Elephant in the Room” and Bhutan must get rid of it.

    Same is the state of affairs with Nepal which is a country landlocked by India on its southern, eastern and western borders and with China’s Autonomous Region Tibet to the north. Because of its geographical situation; Nepal has to depend large on India even for transportation of goods imported from China. India knows well this helplessness of Nepal and exploits it to the full extent. The worst example of this exploitation was observed on 23rd September 2015 when India imposed an undeclared blockade along the boundaries with Nepal. This blockade severely affected Nepal and its economy. This brutal blockade continued for many days and choked imports of not only petroleum, but also medicines and earthquake relief material. The people of Nepal could never forget that cruelty. Last year, a book was published with the title, ‘Machination of RAW in Transitional Nepal.’ The author of the book is Nepalese scholar Dr Shastra Dutta Pant. The author has provided so many details regarding RAW’s covert and overt operations against the strategically important Nepal. The R&AW wants to compel Nepal to surrender its sovereignty in favour of Indian hegemonic designs in South Asia. The author has tried to make his readers realize that through micro-management of the Nepalese affairs, the R&AW is trying to make Nepal an exclusively India dependent country. A conflict-ridden, poverty-stricken, and politically weaker Nepal is a strength for RAW in pursuit of its Great Game Plan in Nepal. The book refers to the statement of a renowned Indian journalist Ashok Raina who once said, R&AW pressurizes neighbouring countries to strike unequal bilateral treaties as in Nepal. With over 18,000 agents spread all over the world, RAW is believed to have around 12,000 agents just in the neighbouring countries, lending support to non-state actors, secessionists, and pressure groups.”

    http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items/2018/11/22/nations-exploited-by-the-raw/

    • Replies: @zogborg
  298. FB says: • Website
    @John Arthur

    China almost certainly has a vast amount of talent that Russia does not possess…

    I would suggest you start by trying to make yourself appear less hopelessly stupid than you really are…

    You know zilch about aviation, space technologies, engineering or how much ‘talent’ in these areas is generated by various countries…or how that talent is generated and what is required to generate it…

    [Although I do think you know quite a bit about generating ‘gas’…]

  299. Ber says:
    @Sam Coulton

    Looks like Anglo-Americans have nothing to worry about. Why even waste time on China.

  300. d dan says:
    @AaronB

    “Chinese geniuses refrain from living up to their potential and making genius level contributions,… China is full of geniuses who will crush the West by refusing to make top contributions in their field of genius.”

    You know you are twisting my words and meaning. It is fine if you really have no further interest on this topic.

    And when did I say or even imply US should fold?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  301. Biff says:
    @Biff

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-house-passes-bill-aimed-201938965.html

    Also passed was the Protect Hong Kong Act, H.R. 4270, which would halt the export to Hong Kong of crowd-control devices such as tear gas and rubber bullets.

    Because only in the west are those allowed the use of crowd-control devices to beat, maim, and injure protestors, and sometimes just kill them dead:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

  302. zogborg [AKA "mousie dung"] says:
    @denk

    How does China treat the small countries around it then? Vietnam? Philippines? You are full of shit Chinaman.

    • Replies: @denk
  303. Erebus says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    It worked for the Tibetans…

    Tibetans aren’t Wahhabis. Too many Uyghurs are, and too many of those are battle hardened, Captagon addicted fanatics. An entirely different kettle of fish.

    • Replies: @Galan
  304. FB says: • Website
    @last straw

    A lot of ridiculous stuff being bandied about here by people who know nothing…for instance this…

    The civilian commercial aviation industry is intensely competitive because your products have to be safe, reliable, and efficient. Politics has nothing to do with it.

    To which is added…

    Why don’t you just admit the obvious that Russia does not have a competent civil aviation industry internationally currently?

    Note the authoritative tone this pissant assumes in talking about the commercial aviation industry…while possessing zero qualifications in this field…

    But actual experts say something quite different…

    New Russian MC-21 Aircraft Can Compete With Boeing And Airbus Models, Analysts Say

    A new report says the Russian narrow body Irkut MC-21 “appears to be an excellent aircraft” that can compete with similar models from Airbus and Boeing, but sales outside Russia will be hampered by concerns over maintenance and geopolitics.

    A closer look at both the Chinese C919 and the Russian MC21 is provided in a series of insightful articles by aeronautical engineer and former Swedish air force fighter pilot Bjorn Fehrm…

    The MC-21 is not a copy of a Western design.

    It advances the state of art in cabin standards and structures.

    The MC-21 is also the only civil airliner with a Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymer (CFRP) wing-box which has been produced with Resin infused dry fibre…

    By contrast…the Chinese C919 appears to be yet one more Chinese knockoff…of the A320 some of which have been assembled in China for quite some time…

    It’s closely modeled after Airbus A320 with similar technology…the C919 is similar to the 30 years older base design of the A320neo.

    The author points out that the Russian airplane uses DOMESTIC avionics and fly-by-wire…while ‘the C919 technology has Western origin…’

    The Russian aircraft also has its own engines now…the PD14…the aviation press reports that the MC21 will be flying with the Russian engines by the end of this year…

    Program leaders expect that by 2022, the level of local content will reach 97 percent, thereby rendering MC-21 production “practically nondependent” on foreign suppliers.


    Bjorn Fehrm looks at the new PD14 engine in detail and surmises…

    The technology and performance of the PD-14 engine is approaching its Western counterparts, Pratt & Whitney PW1400G and LEAP-1A, but not quite reaching their level.

    However, as much as I respect Bjorn as a competent colleague, his report is dated 2016 while development work on the PD14 was still ongoing…crucial information recently published by the manufacturer suggests that the PD14 engine has in fact surpassed Western engine technology in a key jet engine parameter…turbine inlet temperature, or TIT…

    …monocrystal turbine blades of high pressure with the perspective cooling system capable of operating at a gas temperature up to 2000 °K…

    That temperature is a milestone for civil aircraft engines…in degrees Celsius it is 1727 C…about 100 C higher than the current state of the art of about 1626 C [1900 K]…

    Since 1995, gas turbines have seen a great rise in firing temperatures, which in turn requires a large improvement in material and cooling technologies.

    The temperatures of turbine inlet, by 2015, will approach 3000 °F (1650 °C) at maximum power for the latest large commercial turbofan engines, resulting in high fuel efficiency and thrust levels…

    Why is high gas temperature important…this is basic thermodynamics…a gas turbine engine’s power and efficiency is directly proportional to the maximum temperature it can achieve…due to the physical property of air, which becomes much more energetic at higher temperatures…

    Rocket engines burning pure oxygen instead of air [which is only about 20 percent oxygen, the rest being nitrogen]…achieve flame temperatures of up to 3,500 K [3227 C]…which is one reason why they put out so much thrust…and why space flight is even possible…

    Now the challenge in reaching these very high temperatures in aircraft engines is because the melting temperature of even the most advanced stainless and nickel-based superalloys is only about 1,400 C…

    From Aircraft Propulsion, Farokhi

    The solution is in cooling the turbine blades by diverting air from the compressor section at the front of the engine, by means of internal passages…and channeling that cooler air through hollow turbine blades as seen here…

    Now this is an example of the expertise and innovation that is involved in state of the art aerospace technology…

    The same kind of cooling challenge is faced in rocket engines, where fuel is circulated through the bell shaped engine nozzle in order to keep it from melting…

    Now there is no question that the Russian rocket engines are the most advanced in the world…the nozzle cooling technology pioneered by the Russians is now used on every modern rocket engine…

    In the wiki entry on rocket engine cooling we find this…

    A key innovation in regenerative cooling was the Soviet U-1250 engine designed by Aleksei Mihailovich Isaev in 1945.

    Its combustion chamber was lined with a thin copper sheet supported by the corrugated steel wall of the chamber. Fuel flowed through the corrugations and absorbed heat very efficiently.

    This permitted more energetic fuels and higher chamber pressures, and it is the basic plan used in all Russian engines since.

    Modern American engines solve this problem by lining the combustion chamber with brazed copper or nickel alloy tubes although recent engines like in the RS-68 have started to use the Russian technique…

    So we see how rocket engine technology is directly related to aircraft engine technology…the huge importance of these technical details are well known to aerospace engineers…but here on this forum we have pissants who claim to know more than seasoned aerospace engineers and don’t mind presuming they are actually qualified to argue these points…

    We also have total ignoramuses who know nothing of these aerospace technologies, but who posit that a nation’s economy somehow determines its engineering and scientific ‘talent’…

    Well…the fact is that it is a nation’s technical-scientific base, including academia and specialized research centers, like the Air Force Research Laboratory in the US and Russia’s Central Institute of Aerodynamics [TsAGI] and Central Institute of Aviation Motors [CIAM]…

    This is a complete unknown world to goofballs here on UNZ…throwing around ridiculous one-liners backed up by nothing but their complete ignorance…

    I have drawn attention numerous times to Godfree Roberts that he is NOT QUALIFIED to make sweeping judgements about China’s position in the world of state of the art technology…the most important of which is aerospace…where China is still basically a non-entity…being even behind the Europeans in terms of both rocket propulsion and military and civil aviation…

    He is fond of throwing up reams of meaningless bullshit like the number of ‘scientific’ papers published…the fact is that there are nearly TWO MILLION so-called ‘papers’ published each year…

    The Smithsonian notes…

    Who actually reads those papers? According to one 2007 study, not many people: half of academic papers are read only by their authors and journal editors…

    Likewise the US Patent Office grants about 350,000 patents a year…that’s about 1,000 patents a day…

    Now I’m sure Mr. Roberts has not actually thought this through…but here is a question…

    How many of those two million ‘papers’ and hundreds of thousands of ‘patents’ actually end up having any kind of impact on anything…?

    For instance like building a state of the art aircraft engine or rocket engine…on which the forward march of progress actually depends…?

    The answer is maybe a handful…I can say from personal experience that a new generation aircraft engine will have about as many significant patents as you can count on the fingers of one hand…the key is quality, not quantity…

    I have also stated that becoming a high technology power requires TIME…building that academic base and the research establishments like NASA or its Russian counterparts is not done overnight…

    That’s one of the reasons China has been partnering with foreign universities that have agreed to set up campuses in China…there are nine such institutions today…

    In 2016, in light of China’s goal of improving the global competitiveness of its higher education institutions, the Chinese MOE along with the Ministry of Finance and the National Development and Reform Commission announced the World First-Class University Project…

    …a goal of which is to significantly increase the number of highly ranked Chinese universities in the global market by the year 2050.

    I repeat here…THE YEAR 2050…

    The most significant of these is the Shenzhen MSU-BIT University

    It is a partnership between Lomonosov Moscow State University…which has produced 13 Nobel laureates, 6 Fields Medal winners and 1 Turing Award winner…

    …and the Beijing Institute of Technology…a Class A Double First Class University…

    We note that Lomonosov was established in 1755…named after the academic Mikhail Lomonosov who contributed much to the advance of science during the age of enlightenment…

    Even more important is to DISTINGUISH technologies that really count, such as aerospace…

    As ‘Commentator Mike’ noted above…not all ‘technology’ is equal…there is a PECKING ORDER…

    What’s the point of consumer products? Like you’re going to throw a washing machine at your enemy when he invades you?

    That is why specialized institutions like the aforementioned Air Force Research Laboratory in in Dayton, Ohio…home of the Wright Brothers…

    …and Zhukovsky in Russia…home of TsAGI, CIAM and the Gromov Flight Research Center…and named after a founding father of aerodynamics, Nikolai Zhukovsky…are so important…

    This is what is required to produce intellectual power…which in turn, creates national power…

    China is nowhere in this aerospace playing field…simply looking at the heritage of these institutions and what they have contributed to human progress speaks for itself…you don’t build this capability overnight…and the Chinese themselves realize that…which is why they are trying to learn from others…

    But to really get a sense of how things stand in the world of aerospace capabilities, one has to see up close and personal these meccas of aeronautical science…

    How can people who have no experience here [especially pundits that have no actual kinowledge of these things] possibly have anything intelligent to say on these matters…?

    These commentators and pundits only make a lot of useless noise that serves only to muddle real understanding of how things really work in our world…they are well advised to follow Mao’s advice…

    You must investigate!

    You must not talk nonsense!

    PS…there has been talk here of China’s ambitions to send a man to the moon…The US and Russia have recently expressed similar ambitions…

    Why is this important…?

    In an upcoming post I will detail why any nation that succeeds single-handedly in establishing a permanent human presence on the moon will wield ultimate geopolitical power…

  305. denk says:
    @zogborg

    Cow dung

    ‘What about China’

    Poor dear, since when has China becomes the moral compass for ‘democratic’ India ?

    Lets see,
    China has settled all its land/sea demarcation …

    China’s land border negotiations with neighbouring countries offer a startling revelation. Portions of the total disputed territories that China received as part of its boundary negotiations with 12 of its 14 neighbours are as follows:

    Afghanistan – 0%
    Tajikistan – 4%
    Nepal – 6%
    Burma – 18%
    Kazakhstan – 22%
    Mongolia – 29%
    Kyrgyzstan – 32%
    North Korea – 40%
    Laos – 50%
    Vietnam – 50%
    Russia – 50%
    Pakistan – 54%

    http://indiaschinablog.blogspot.com/2010/03/you-scratch-my-back-but-i-wont-scratch.html

    iN stark contrast….
    Since independence, iNdia has gobbled up …
    Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, and Tripura., Sikkim, Goa, terrorised BHutan, Nepal, Sri Lanka.

    When it comes to ‘collecting’ real estates,
    YOu guys can teach your anglo cousins a thing or two’ 😉

    full of shit

    \

    Thats what you get wallowing all day in the Ganges,

    hehehhe

  306. @FB

    What do you mean Chin has never certified an aircraft. Do you know what the ARJ 21 is?? You realize they are currently doing it with the C919. Look at the recent mockup of the CR 929 cockpit… It is based on the C919. The Chinese side is designing the fuselage and cockpit while the Russian side is focusing on wing – tail – engines. Your obvious racial hatred blinds you to reality.
    To touch on certification… You might want to study the agreement between the European and Chinese agencies.

    • Replies: @FB
  307. Galan says:
    @Erebus

    Fighting for your rights doesn’t make you a wahabi. Uyghurs have been fighting for their rights before the wahabies came into existence. Your hatred is blinding you.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @foolisholdman
  308. Galan says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    How do you know? Who are you to judge on behalf of Uyghurs and Tibetans? You speak like god, while pretending to be non religious and scientific. Stop worshiping China, or if you cannot stop worshiping China stop sacrificing other humans for your worship.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  309. Godfree Roberts, in a recent article published on UR, claimed that China has an operational and DEPLOYED Quantum Radar System. Godfree Roberts would make a hilarious character on an episode of South Park, he could be called Gutteroil Roberts. Roberts is merely one operative in a network if propaganda shills for China. Two years ago I read one of these guys claiming China already had “Quantum Sattelites” in earth orbit.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Iris
  310. AaronB says:
    @d dan

    No, I just pointed out the silliness of what you are saying. But I have to admit it was original 🙂 And rather daring in flipping the usual script.

    And yes, I don’t want to get into a long conversation “proving” the hype over Chinese intelligence is nonsense. That is obvious to anyone who has an eye for bullshit.

    I wish the Chinese well and I’m sure they’ll be fine in the long run. The current system will give way in time to something much better, rooted in China’s Taoist past – its more interesting and creative side.

    Then the whole world can rejoice together with China.

    • Replies: @d dan
  311. FB says: • Website
    @Showmethereal

    You might want to study the fact that the ARJ21 has never been certified…by either the FAA or EASA…

    Even the Chinese air regulator CAAC took 12 years to certify the ARJ21 for the domestic market…it can’t fly anywhere outside of China…

    Amazing that you would tout the ARJ21…which is a knockoff of the MD90 that was produced in China under license…and for which production tooling was never returned to Douglas…only 18 have been built so far…another Chinese science project…the aviation press even talks about the few domestic carriers that are using this ‘airplane’ as ‘guinea pigs’…

    As for the EASA agreement with China…please feel free to go ahead and show it…so I can ‘study’ it…

    And now you are trying to push the nonsense here that the Chinese will have an equal role in the design of the CR929…please go ahead and provide some specific information to that effect…

    That’s not the case…the Chinese are using this as an opportunity to learn…nothing wrong with that…as I mentioned earlier, the US similarly used the ISS program to learn from Russia…

    The problem is that you are trying to deny this obvious fact…China can in no way be considered anything more than a pupil in this venture…

    I’m not going to keep arguing nonsense with a moron…I have nothing against any race of people on earth…other than the race known as IDIOTS…of which you and your know-nothing buddies are charter members…

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  312. d dan says:
    @AaronB

    “No, I just pointed out the silliness of what you are saying”

    You can NOT prove others’ “silliness” by twisting people’s words and meaning. You can simply state that my claim is “ridiculous”, “silly”, “unbelievable” or even “stupid”. Those are all reasonable ways to end the conversation, in my opinion.

    As I told you, I am not crazy about IQ, and the so-called “high intelligent” Chinese theory. I wish Godfree could have present Chinese achievements without mentioning IQ. My comment is not meant to advance those theory, but to rebut your allusion that there is lack of genius in China, and to offer what I think an insight into early PRC development in science and engineering, an insight that is not well-known even among the young generation of Chinese.

    As a parting note (hopefully well-received by you), I think you are over-sensitive about those claims like “China is number 1”, “China century”, or “China is overtaking US”, etc. Those statements may or may not be true, but declaring them is not outrageous given that, China had been number 1 before (although long ago), China is the most populous country, and the current trend seem to be in that direction. They are not meant to be racist statement against white or other races. And they should not be discouraging US from working harder to compete.

    • Replies: @last straw
  313. Iris says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    The only people who accuse China of persecuting Muslims and the people who are currently bombing Muslims: NATO.

    Exactly.
    Just like the only people who accuse China of exploiting Africa are the domineering class within these countries who have ripped off, enslaved and colonised this continent for five centuries.

  314. Ron Unz says:

    I haven’t read through this 45,000 word comment thread, but I did notice there was some dispute over China’s economic success. Here’s a per capita PPP graph from an article of mine I published a few years ago:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    My strong impression is that those trendlines have pretty much continued during the seven or eight subsequent years.

    Furthermore, from the late 1970s onward—40-odd years—I’ve been telling all my friends that China would be reasonably likely to dominate the world economically, and all my predictions turned out to be significant under-estimates, so I think I feel pretty confident that this is exactly what will happen.

  315. @Galan

    US Ambassador Chas. H. Freeman, Director for Chinese Affairs at the U.S. Department of State from 1979-1981: “I don’t see any reason why Tibet being part of China should be any more controversial than Wales being part of the United Kingdom. The periods when they were put into that position were about the same. I recall, as probably most people don’t, that the the Central Intelligence Agency, with assistance from some of China’s neighbors, put $30 million into the destabilization of Tibet and basically financed and trained the participants in the Khampa rebellion and ultimately sought to remove the Dalai Lama from Tibet–which they did. They escorted him out of Tibet to Dharamsala. ..”The CIA programs in Tibet, which were very effective in destabilizing it, did not succeed in Xinjiang.” 8/31/18
    https://supchina.com/podcast/legendary-diplomat-chas-w-freeman-jr-on-u-s-china-strategy-and-history-part-3/

    [MORE]

    Most Tibetans live in rural areas and few speak Chinese but there is a substantial urban middle class in government, tourism, commerce, light manufacturing and transportation. As thousands of Internet-savvy youngsters graduate, they fill existing niches and create new ones. The fear of ‘invasion’ by millions of ethnic Han has receded after locals saw that most Han immigrants are poor and, being ineligible for state subsidies, most find it difficult to compete with locals and fail within three years. Survivors must contend with Tibetan entrepreneurs who, thanks to massive subsidies, are prospering: three million Tibetans share a state budget bigger than the Oregon State’s.

    GDP, growing thirteen percent annually, reached $110 billion in 2019 while annual urban incomes rose from $200 to $4,500. Fourteen thousand miles of new highways, three new airports and the world’s highest railway, connecting Tibetans to the outside world, lifted per capita urban income from $200 in 1978 to $14,000 in 2019–an annual compounded growth rate of twelve percent. Optical cables have reached every county, everyone has a cell phone and a motor cycle (to which Tibetans are addicted) and, thanks to hydropower, geothermal, wind and solar energy, electricity production has risen seventeen percent annually and brought power to three quarters of the population.

    The population, barely one million in 1952, reached three million in 2019 (ninety-five percent Tibetan and ethnic minorities). Grain output rose from one-hundred eighty-three thousand tonnes to a million and hoop houses now provide fruit and vegetables, a previously undreamed of luxury year round. Poverty, twenty-eight percent in 2015, fell to eight percent in 2018, with the remnants scheduled to be freed from poverty in 2019.

    Smallpox, cholera, venereal diseases, typhoid and scarlet fever and tetanus were endemic in 1959. There were no hospitals and barely four medical workers for every ten-thousand residents. By 2018 there were fourteen hundred medical facilities, eight thousand hospital beds and ten thousand medical workers and the average life expectancy had risen from thirty-six to sixty-seven years and the region boasted sixty-two centenarians. Investigators found that maternal mortality fell from five percent in 1951 to 0.175 percent today, infant mortality from forty-three percent to 0.66 percent while life expectancy rose from thirty-five to sixty-eight years–besting neighboring India, Nepal and Sikkim. The College of Ethnic Tibetan medicine has graduated a thousand medical professionals who now staff fifty specialist hospitals and the first Tibetan commercial pharmaceutical manufacturer, founded in 1992, listed on the stock exchange in 2017.

    Though overseas Tibetans accuse China of ‘demographic aggression,’ the 2000 census recorded a declining Han population and a US Government[1] report concluded, “Family planning policies permitted Tibetans, like members of other minority groups, to have more children than Han Chinese. Urban Tibetans, including Communist Party members, were generally permitted to have two children. Rural Tibetans were encouraged, but not required, to limit births to three children. These guidelines were not strictly enforced.”

    Tibet’s sixty languages, six ethnic groups and five religions are thriving. By 2000, more than 120,000 titles of ethnic minorities’ ancient books had been collected, 120,000 edited and 5,000 published. Zhonghua Dazang Jing, the one-hundred fifty volume encyclopedia of Tibetan studies, was published in two languages. The country’s great epic, Gesar, has been published in Tibetan, Mandarin and foreign languages. Tibetan mural art, thangka (scroll) painting and restoration are flourishing and traditional Tibetan opera is part of August’s Shoton Festival. The Tibetan script was the first ethnic-minority script in China with an international standard and it’s used in fourteen Tibetan-language periodicals and ten newspapers. Tibet has two publishing houses for books and two for audio-visual products, thirty-five printing houses, twenty-three newspapers and thirty-four periodicals. There are two-hundred sixty public art and cultural centers, ten professional art performance troupes, eighteen folk art performance troupes and seven hundred amateur performance teams. Each prefecture and city has newspapers in Tibetan and Han Chinese, Tibetan People’s Radio broadcasts forty programs in Tibetan and Khampa dialect daily and Tibet TV has been broadcasting around the clock since 2007.

    The government spent billions renovating the Drepung, Sera and Gandan monasteries and restoring, reinforcing and re-gilding (with a ton of gold from the national Treasury) the thousand-room Potala Palace which welcomes four-million annual visitors. Directly below the Potala Palace, on the corner of Norbulingkha Road, stands the magnificent Tibet Museum, the region’s first large, modern museum, with more than 520,000 artifacts, that attracts millions of visitors. A thousand artifacts on permanent display tell Tibet’s cultural history and features its many religions.

    International law allows governments to regulate religions to prevent their use as vehicles for violence or separatism and China’s Constitution forbids public religious activities. But since public religious displays are integral to their culture, Tibetans continue to worship publicly. (And exception is state employees and university students in Western Tibet which still, as Ambassador Freeman put it, “Wave religion as a banner in support of a desire for independence or autonomy”). In 2019, forty living Buddhas and one-hundred fifty-thousand monks and nuns were engaged in scriptural study and debate, degree promotion, initiation, abhisheka empowerment and self-cultivation and the Living Buddha reincarnation system was thriving. Shrines in private homes show divided loyalties: some are dedicated to the Dalai Lama, some to the Panchen Lama and some to Mao Zedong revered, like Lincoln, as the Great Emancipator.

    What are their opinions about the Chinese government?

    The answer is “mixed”. In 2000 professor Goldstein asked a sample of Tibetans from across the TAR “Do You Have a Better Life Now Than Your Parents Did?” One of the cohorts of that was aged 60-79, meaning they were born 1920-1940 and their parents lived almost entirely before Chinese policies kicked in. 90% of that cohort answered, “Yes”.

    What about independence? Goldstein didn’t question them on that thorny subject but, shortly after the 2008 riots, the Tibetan Government in Exile secretly conducted a survey and learned that only 29% (5,000 out of 17,000) of Tibetans living in Tibet want renzig, independence, while 47% (8,000) preferred to remain part of China with limited ‘true autonomy’. The remaining 4,000 either wanted the status quo or had no opinion. So the TGIE went with the Middle Way approach because, if only 29% wanted independence so soon after the after the ’08 riots, that figure was probably never going to rise, because Tibetans’ real incomes have risen 300% in the interim and, while some people (including Californians and Hawaiians) like the idea of independence, everybody likes a 300% wage rise.

    Sadly, the Chinese government had offered the Dalai Lama the Middle Way approach in the 1980s but, because he demanded that parts of Gansu, Sichuan, and other multi-ethnic provinces in China be included in his ‘Tibet’, the deal fell through.

    What would you find if you polled Native Hawaiians, Lakota Indians or Australian Aborigines on whether they want their territories to be independent states? Of course, our ‘democratic’ media are not interested in the opinions of Native Hawaiians, Lakota Indians or Australian Aborigines who are actually part of the issue. Only rich white people’s opinions matter.


    [1] 44. U.S. Department of State, “Human Rights Practices in Tibet-2003,” http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/1934.html.

  316. @Bombercommand

    I said that the manufacturer was taking orders for them at the last airshow.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  317. anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    Much as I would like the compliment of being in your bozo file I feel compelled to limit my correspondence to those with a habit of using civil educated English. Your problem with finding *any* George Kennan quote is that he spoke English. The author of “We should bode [sic] no competitior [sic]” is definitely not Kennan.

  318. @Commentator Mike

    A few areas that count the most. Russia is concentrating on advanced weapons technologies and that is all that counts in a world of war and turmoil.

    But how long can they maintain their advantage in these few areas?

    After all they have enormous wealth to protect from those who would plunder their country, including the Chinese.

    Who in their right mind, China included, would contemplate plundering a nuclear superpower that Russia? I hope Russia learned their cold-war lessons and watch their military budget carefully.

    What’s the point of consumer products? Like you’re going to throw a washing machine at your enemy when he invades you? And do what with your Rolex watch? Trade it for a passage through enemy lines to live like some refugee in a foreign land?

    The point is to develop your economy and get rich. Otherwise where can you get sufficient research and military budgets? Every developed country developed and got rich by industrialization/developing their manufacturing sectors. China is no exception.

    So far the Russians seem to be doing the right thing and getting the most blasts for their rubles.

    This is an extremely short-sighted view. As China develops further, they will surpass Russia in all aspects eventually. The Russian leadership is fully aware of the problem. Just the other day Putin was asking Russia’s military-industry-complex to produce more civilian products.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  319. Iris says:
    @Bombercommand

    Two years ago I read one of these guys claiming China already had “Quantum Sattelites” in earth orbit.

    Your information is outdated.

    The Chinese launched their first quantum satellite (Mozi/Micius) in August 2016. By September 2017, they had already succeeded in organising the first ever quantum-encrypted intercontinental satellite teleconference, held between Beijing and Vienna.

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610106/chinese-satellite-uses-quantum-cryptography-for-secure-video-conference-between-continents/

    They have mastered all aspect of quantum communication: through satellite, in daytime, and through water. They have been using for years a quantum-encrypted communication backbone serving their main cities.

    China is the world leader in quantum technology: by 2018, it had filed 517 related patents, the USA, her closest competitors, only 117.

    Lockheed Martin pretend not to believe that China has made a breakthrough and developed a quantum radar system, but are in the same time heavily investing in the same research.
    They are just lagging behind, and cannot acknowledge a Chinese technical prowess which renders obsolete US MIC’s stealth planes.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Bombercommand
  320. @d dan

    Don’t bother wasting your time with him. He likes peddling his pet theory, that “China lacks elite brain power” or something like that, repeatedly in almost every China related comment, while totally oblivious to the fact that what China really lacked was first rate research institutions and R&D programs in the past. Now that China has established the worlds finest research institutions and created cutting edge R&D programs, it’s just a matter of time the rest of the world will feel the impact of China’s contribution to the developments of science and technology.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  321. Lin says:
    @Ron Unz

    Let me repost some data from Chinese gov stats bureau
    2014 report: http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjsj/zxfb/201502/t20150226_685799.html
    ….初步核算,全年国内生产总值[5]636463亿元,比上年增长7.4%….
    ….全年人民币平均汇率为1美元兑6.1428元人民币,比上年升值0.8%。
    2014 GDP = 63.6463 trillion Yuan US $: Yuan = 6.1428

    1999 report: http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjsj/tjgb/ndtjgb/qgndtjgb/200203/t20020331_30013.html
    …..1999年国内生产总值为82054亿元,比上年增长7.1%
    …..年末汇率8.2793元人民币兑1美元
    1999 GDP= 8.2045 trillion Yuan US $: Yuan = 8.2793
    ……..
    Without 15 years, Chinese GDP in nominal US$ increase more than 10 times, due to fast growth rate, some inflation, currency appreciation and 2 GDP calculation adjustment at 16% and 6 % if I remember right.
    If one doubts the validity of such fast growth rate, 2 ways to look at it: Either the 1999 figure was an underestimate OR the 2014 figure was an over-estimate. Over a wide range of data, per-capita Chinese figures are quite similar to those of countries at a similar GDP/capita like mexico, brazil, turkey..
    –Chinese electricity generation/capita has exceeded that of UK.
    (BTW, electricity generation can be estimated by satellite measures on the EM radiation from power transmission lines.)
    –Car sales 2018: china 27.38 millions (popn: 1395 million)
    Brazil 2.47 millions (popn _209 million)
    https://focus2move.com/world-car-market/
    (American car manufacturers have substantial investment in china, go ask them for the figures if you doubt the above)

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  322. @Ron Unz

    I think you are absolutely correct Ron about China’s general advantage and its future trajectory, but I am skeptical of some of the content in your articles, namely China’s rise and America’s fall. I made some comments on this earlier in the thread, but I feel rehashing them in a more concise manner is a good idea.

    I highly doubt that China’s present success is due to intelligent policies on their part, and more down to the fact that China has the best demographic position of any country in all of human history- and this is more due to dumb luck than conscious policy making.

    Lets start with a basic comparison. Conservative estimates for China’s workforce(people working) is around 776 million people, more normal estimates have it around 800 million people. The workforce of the US is around 160 million people, and this estimate is considered to be very accurate. So the Chinese workforce is 4.85-5 times bigger than America’s.

    Now, the size of the US economy is $21.345 trillion dollars at PPP, and the size of the Chinese Economy is $27.3 trillion dollars at PPP. Given China’s higher rate of growth, it would seem that the Chinese have a better government than the American people, but we need to adjust for demographics.

    If China was as productive as the average US worker, it economy would be (21.345*4.85)-(21.345*5)= $103.5-$106.725 trillion dollars. That is a far cry from $27.3 trillion dollars, and it seems that the slowdown is already occuring in China far from this juncture.

    Now this does not take into consideration the fact that China’s IQ is higher than the US’s by a good 6-7 pt gap. This does not take into consideration that Whites, the most produtive workers in the US, are an aging and shrinking part of the workforce, which extends the advantange toward China.

    According to most estimates, Whites in America are 60% of the population today, and earn something like 75% of the income generated. So if we were to assume a relative equality in the workforce, that means something like 96 million Whites in the workforce generating some $16 trillion dollars.

    Now 95%+ of the workforce in China is estimated to be Han Chinese. That means at least 740-760 million workers in China are of Han Chinese origin. Since the Whites are broadly the largest and most intelligent workers in the US, and the same for the Han Chinese in China, this can make a good point of reference.

    (740~760)/(96)=(7.708~7.91)*(21.345)= $(164.527 ~168.98125) trillion dollars!!!. If the average Chinese worker was as productive as the average White worker, such an economy would be larger than the entire global economy. This analysis does not even take into fact that Whites, being much older than Asians, Blacks, and Hispanics, may be an even smaller share of the workforce. So this estimate might be an understatement. Another adjustment in China’s favor is that the Han Chinese have a measued 5pt IQ gap in favor of themselves vs the White Europeans in America.

    Another adjustment can occur as well. Now, the Black population in the United States is the most dysfunctional in the entire country, with homicide rates 800% higher than the White homicide rate. Blacks in America make up 13% of the population, and without them, the United States would almost certainly be richer due to dramatically less Welfare and Crime burdens, allowing for resources to be placed in more useful investments.
    If China has a 13% black population(1.4*.13= 182 million Blacks), it almost certainly would not be as wealthy as today, perhaps even collapsing.

    So in the end, all of these estimates are surely conservatives ones, and probably far from China’s actual potential. In reality, I’m sure China’s potential is dramatically higher than the numbers described above.

    While I agree with you that China will be #1 in the world, this is in my opinion, inspite of its government and almost entirely due to the fact that China’s demographic position is the best of any country in all of human history.

    The only reason people are shocked about China is because they have no clue about the power of Demographics, and get shocked when high IQ countries with strong advantages grow in a naturally strong manner.

    I actually think when all is said and done, and we look back through the rearview mirror, China’s underperformance relative to its potential will be seen as the biggest blunder in all of human history. Let’s hope the CCP figures this out.

    *This is not to say that I agree with how the US is governed. I think it is a disgrace how we are governed, and am not defending the US at all!

    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Ron Unz
  323. @John Arthur

    Actually, there is another point that I feel benefits my ideas.
    Net Wealth is largely considered to be the best proxy for national power, as it is what is left over from production after costs.

    Now, according to all private sector estimates, who have big stakes in getting these things right, China’s total Net Wealth is only 51.02% of that of the United States. US is estimated around $98 trillion in Net Wealth, and China is estimated around $50 Trillion. So, even with all of these aformentioned advantages China possess, including the hinderences that America possess(Blacks being 13% of the population and having no wealth, and with Latinos struggling to save money(though this one is probably due to bad US policy, I dont really know)), it is astonishing that the China isn’t ahead by a substantial amount.

    https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us/en/reports-research/global-wealth-report.html

    Now, I am somewhat critical of these views of China’s wealth, and much prefer PPP since we are comparing living standards, not National Power. Still, I think this is another critical piece of evidence that strongly endorses my view of these things, and explains why China has been very cautious in confronting the US(though this could be the wise anti-interventionalism that China possesses).

    I really think that once it is all said and done, it will be not just American Pravda, but also Chinese Pravda, as the Chinese State has failed to capitalize on its extreme advantages.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  324. AaronB says:
    @last straw

    What do fancy research and r and d institutions have to do with producing theoretical mathematicians?

    Einstein came up with his theories while a postal clerk.

    All you need is a first rate brain….

    • Replies: @last straw
    , @foolisholdman
  325. Ron Unz says:
    @John Arthur

    I think you are absolutely correct Ron about China’s general advantage and its future trajectory, but I am skeptical of some of the content in your articles, namely China’s rise and America’s fall….If China was as productive as the average US worker, it economy would be (21.345*4.85)-(21.345*5)= $103.5-$106.725 trillion dollars. That is a far cry from $27.3 trillion dollars, and it seems that the slowdown is already occuring in China far from this juncture.

    Sure, I think almost everyone would agree that *today* America is still far richer than China, but the latter’s sustained economic trajectory over the last 40 years has been utterly astonishing, and is set to soon overtake our own country.

    Basically, forty years ago China was just about the poorest country in the world, far below Haiti by some measures, and it’s now close to catching up with the industrialized West and already ahead of it in some important technologies. If Haiti had now become the #1 telecom equipment manufacturer in the world, I’d be pretty impressed.

    Moreover, I’m quite skeptical of much of America’s current economy, which is pretty heavily based on fuzzy elements such as financial services and real estate. If the latter collapse, so does much of our GDP.

    Also, another big fraction of our GDP and employment from our health care sector, largely because it’s one of the world’s most inefficient.

    And our gigantic budget and trade deficits suggest that the dollar is grossly overvalued. If it drops, Americans suddenly become much poorer.

    Supposedly, something like half of all Americans have less than $500 in available savings, and household debt has returned to dangerously high levels. Except for autos, nearly all our consumer goods are imported, and if a dollar collapse causes a spike in prices, I’m not sure what people will do.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz, dfordoom
    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Lin
    , @John Arthur
  326. @Lin

    Agreed, the Chinese figures put out are indisputable, and it would be very hard to fake.

  327. Erebus says:
    @Galan

    Fighting for your rights doesn’t make you a wahabi.

    No, but spending your schooling years in a Wahhabi madrassa being indoctrinated in a whacko theology often does.

    Uyghurs have been fighting for their rights before the wahabies came into existence.

    Rubbish.
    Here’s a bit of history in a nutshell. The word “Uyghur” was coined in 1921, by the Soviets, and the people are an amalgam of various Turkic tribes that had been fighting amongst themselves for dominance for centuries until some petitioned China to come to their assistance. China did, in 1748 and took over whole lot.

    In any case, everybody’s been “fighting for their rights” since the dawn of time.

  328. @Ron Unz

    I agree with you Ron that China’s momentum is unstoppable. But I disagree with the Haiti comparison. Haiti is a fairly low IQ country will a small population, China is the exact opposite. China is still be far less productive than the US and have top technological firms, which it most certainly has.

    Economic growth is based on distance from the productivity frontier, and this frontier largely moves in changes to the Global economy, not much to do with internal policy of a certain country. China having a great workforce and IQ advantage can easily catch up to other similar countries on the frontier, but after that it is different. Japan grew in a slower fashion, but still dramatic. Once it caught up to the relative difference from the frontier as other high IQ countries, its growth fell dramatically behind the US’s. I don’t think China will be different.

    Now I believe that China’s economy will be twice the US economy, maybe slightly bigger. But I think here is a good point of reference. Whites in the US are something like more than twice as productive as East Asians in Japan, and 50% more productive as East Asians in Taiwan, and are slightly less productive than people in Singapore. Our own relative measures in GDP per capita are dragged down by the Black population.

    I think it is reasonable for China to catch up to Korea, and in doing so will be 2.5X larger than the US economy. But I am highly skeptical that they will catch up to US workers in productivity, much less than US white workers.

    Though if the collapse you are predicting for the US occurs, then I would think the calculus changes. However, we seem remarkable resillent from such a catastrophic event in any case. If anything I would think Japan and Europe are closer to the edge than we are.

    One more point, our low savings is due to our tax structure, change that and our savings problem disappears.

    • Replies: @Biff
  329. Lin says:
    @Ron Unz

    Personally I don’t believe in PPP GDP because consumer pattern differs widely.
    Some 3rd worlders love to quote PPP GDP out of insecurity like it cost much less to have a hair cut in his/her home country..but look at some basic fact: The poorer a country, the bigger share of household budget is spent on food items; and it so happens that developed countries like US have lower unsubsidized production cost of bulk food due to mechanization and more advanced tech. (Developing Brazil and developed Japan are the exception I guess)The agriculture of both india and china are more heavily subsidized. Some indians love to quote that big mac are cheaper in india but they didn’t mention big mac in india are chicken burgers which worldwide are cheaper than beef burger and the average Indians can’t afford chicken big mac regularly. Lets say one can hire a live-in domestic servant in S. Asia at US$80/month; great for the employer but what can that domestic servant do with $80? Spend the $80 on haircuts or cell-phone or plane tickets?

    • Agree: John Arthur
    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Ron Unz
  330. Biff says:
    @John Arthur

    One more point, our low savings is due to our tax structure,

    I’m all ears…

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  331. FB says: • Website
    @Iris

    They are just lagging behind, and cannot acknowledge a Chinese technical prowess which renders obsolete US MIC’s stealth planes.

    If you actually knew anything about ‘stealth’ planes you would know that it doesn’t work anyway…no ‘quantum radar’ hokus pokus required…

    Also quantum encryption is NOT quantum computing…quantum encryption has been around for decades…in fact the BB84 scheme has been around since 1984…and there are all kinds of commercial products available…

    The satellites are a goofy idea…but since you don’t actually know anything about orbital mechanics [like the clown ‘article’ you linked to]…you fail to notice that a satellite in polar orbit is only going to be available for a certain short time window over any given place on the surface of the earth…thus making the practical utility of such a scheme worthless…

    Also the basic physical challenge with transmitting photons over long distance [which is implicit in encryption] is only partially helped by using a sat…just like laser going through the medium of the atmosphere is degraded…so is the photon transmission for this encryption scheme…

    This also does not take into account the fact that cloud cover will render it useless, even for those short period when the sat is on station over a certain location…

    Basically a science project…and not a very interesting one…

    There is no breakthrough of any kind here…and even if quantum computing is someday realized…you know what…a computer at the end of the day is simply a computer…it’s not going to get you to the moon…

    In fact in space you need very thick circuits to withstand cosmic radiation…that’s why even passenger jets are still using the 286 processor…

    The whole thing is a nothing burger cooked up by a retarded media that has zero knowledge about anything…these clowns that crank out this crapola should be required by law to have some basic knowledge of physics and math at a minimum…

    But of course it doesn’t matter, since the getting-dumber-all-the-time homo ‘sapiens’ would not actually be able to make use of any meaningful and insightful information anyway…thus he prefers a good daily dose of crapola…

    Thanks for contributing your share…

    • Replies: @Iris
  332. @Biff

    I would add one correction to the above, its our tax system and our healthcare system
    Essentially when you are below a certain income in this country, it makes more finanical sense to simply stop saving and start spending, and any future shortfalls of revenue will be recompensated by the government.
    If we reform the healthcare system, and stop taxing income so much(start taxing consumption), then the savings rate will rise.

    • Replies: @Biff
  333. @Lin

    PPP does not take into account quality of goods, but nominal does to a larger extent. I would use Net Wealth as a more accurate measure, as poorer countries generate production less efficiently than wealthier countries.
    Net wealth showcases the differences better than Nominal or PPP does. But for easy purposes, we use PPP

    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Lin
  334. Ron Unz says:
    @Lin

    Personally I don’t believe in PPP GDP because consumer pattern differs widely.
    Some 3rd worlders love to quote PPP GDP out of insecurity like it cost much less to have a hair cut in his/her home country..but look at some basic fact: The poorer a country, the bigger share of household budget is spent on food items

    Sure, PPP has serious problems for exactly the reasons you mention. But we have to use something, and I think it’s superior to using nominal exchange rates, which can be effected by all sorts of artificial distortions.

    Admittedly, I’ve never really looked into the issue, but I have the impression that’s what most experts in the field would tend to believe.

  335. Biff says:
    @John Arthur

    and our healthcare system

    They now employ an army of lawyers to separate you from your savings and property if you can’t pay your heavily inflated\bloated hospital bill. They got you by the balls – figuratively and literally.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  336. @John Arthur

    I didn’t mean “easy”, but living standard purposes

  337. @Godfree Roberts

    Perhaps you ALSO wrote that in another article, and would be a real howler in its own right. I am referring to your article When China Leads The World published by The Unz Review and available in The Archive. In that article, under the heady heading “Hard Power”(which would make even Tom Clancy wince in embarrassment) you write “On the ground, passive and quantum radars emit no detectable signals while tracking objects for Russia’s S-400 antiaircraft/antimissile batteries.” Sounds like “operational and deployed” to me.

  338. @Ron Unz

    Just another illustration of how long it can
    take for fact based rationality to
    prevail today where it matters. I can recall first saying to my young relations about 12 years ago that anyone who didn’t speak Chinese in 2035 would be like someone who didn’t speak English today (not that Chinese will take over as the world’s lingua franca – but, 1.3 billion with a high smart fraction!!). Before that it was only 1999 when I said in an interview that X didn’t matter because the 21st century woild be the Chinese century. You were way too far ahead 🙂

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  339. @Ron Unz

    My last comment should have added the context that these UR threads still show many still don’t get it.

  340. @Ron Unz

    One final point I’ll make is those estimates are still the *conservative* estimates.
    China has further advantages in a higher IQ
    No substantial Black population
    Han Chinese are somewhat younger than White European
    So on and so forth…
    I think that China’s demographic advantage is simply astonishing, and reminds me of a video game player playing a real time strategy game and using cheat codes to give his civilization the best stats. Whatever he could have come up with is very much like what China’s advantages are…

    • Replies: @AaronB
  341. AaronB says:
    @John Arthur

    You are absolutely correct. “On paper” China’s advantages are so absolutely astonishing that it should have been absolutely crushing everyone intellectually and technologically for some time now.

    Yet it can’t build a good commercial jet engine. It can’t produce top level mathematicians. Its elite graduating engineers are only as good as our average ones. It dominates in no intellectual field. It produces geniuses in no intellectual field.

    At a certain point, one must admit the emperor had no clothes.

    Steve Hsu in particular presents such an overwhelming case for Chinese intellectual superiority of an absolutely crushing nature that he actually succeeds in completely undermining his case, which is unintentionally hilarious.

    After reading his case, you expect rivers and torrents and gushing streams of genius level Chinese talent that should have been absolutely dominating everything intellectually for the last 100 years lol.

    But what you actually get is real world China 🙂 A country that can’t even compete with the US, a third of its size and suffering all sorts of social problems.

  342. Cyrano says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Thirty years ago everybody was talking about the New Ice age coming and about Japan buying US – that’s how powerful supposedly the Japanese economy was. Today, everybody is talking about global warming and how China is the next number one economy.

    It could also turn out to be one of the fleeting phobias fashionable in the west. Because it’s one thing to put impressive numbers in GDP growth while catching up to the west, it’s another thing putting impressive numbers while already ahead of the west.

    I also think that there are 2 different types of intelligence (at least). Intelligence type 1 – ability to learn things that are already known. Intelligence type 2 – ability to create things that don’t even exist or were not known before. So far the Chinese have demonstrated that they possess only intelligence type 1 – which is also pretty impressive, but still not as impressive as type 2.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  343. @AaronB

    What do fancy research and r and d institutions have to do with producing theoretical mathematicians?

    Einstein came up with his theories while a postal clerk.

    All you need is a first rate brain….

    Theoretical mathematicians are the exception, not the rule. And how much practical contributions do theoretical mathematicians make to the fields of science and technology? As for Einstein, you need good institutions to develop sophisticated tests to confirm the theory. That’s true for all physical theories. There are no more big scientific breakthroughs in today’s world anymore. Nowadays you can only obtain small, incremental breakthroughs through good research and development programs. Good institutions are more likely to create good R&D programs. That’s why they are so important.

    • Replies: @d dan
  344. @AaronB

    Indeed,
    One of the weirdest geopolitical trends is that East Asians significantly underperform their economic potential
    Here is a very interesting, and thought provoking point.
    There are 127 million East Asians in Japan with an economy of $5 trillion
    There are 51 million East Asians in Korea with an economy of $2 trillion.
    There are 180 million Whites in America with a production of $16 trillion.
    In essence there are as many East Asians in Japan and Korea as there are Whites in the USA, yet the combined production of Japan and Korea is *less than half* what Whites produce in the USA.
    Remember, East Asians still have an so called 5 pt advantage in IQ.
    Yet, Whites in the US, hardly a well governed nation, have more than double the productivity of East Asians in Korea and Japan.
    And China’s Han population have a fraction of the productivity of East Asians in Japan and Korea.
    It’s all quite weird…

    Remember, China’s Net Wealth is still roughly *half* of the US’s, despite its overwhelming advantages. The differences between China and the US are like US vs France or Germany vs Czech Republic. Normally, there shouldn’t even be a competition. Surely if US media started to refer to France as a “serious competitor”, or a country we should strive for, or if German media said the same about the Czech Republic, we would conclude something had gone very, very wrong…

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @AaronB
  345. Lin says:
    @John Arthur

    PPP does not take into account quality of goods, but nominal does to a larger extent. I would use Net Wealth as a more accurate measure

    Problem is how ‘net’ is ‘net wealth’? A substantial % of ‘net wealth’ are in the form of real estates and could be insanely inflated like in Hongkong and some parts of US. Bottom line is there’s no single all encompassing measurement of total economic activities;(being said, nominal GDP is still the most valid at least for larger economies).Some examples:
    –Thai PPP GDP seems to be relatively high; could it be due to the sex/’hospitability’ industry there? Mind you such industry is very high valued added. How would one compare a ‘job’ done by a thai tranny to ‘jobs’ elsewhere?
    –China PPP GDP is said to be higher than that of US(or US$1.o worth much less than 7.07 yuans, today’s rate) but it seems computers in china are not priced lower than those in US in US$.
    –India nominal/PPP GDP is about 20%/40% of china, it means india has great wage cost advantage over china but yet lots of (low tech)india household items, pots and pans…I read are imported from china.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @John Arthur
  346. I wish I could bet half my net worth on your being completely wrong. Come to think of it I should try to find some surrogate investments which weren’t already overpriced.

  347. @AaronB

    Have you factored in the extraordinary disruption of the Red Guard eruption?

  348. denk says:
    @zogborg

    The world doesn’t need these ugly, soulless, greedy insectoid people who do nothing but pollute the atmosphere of Western countries they emigrate to.

    Coming from an Indian, some cheek !

    INdia is the undisputed superpower of WMM, [1]
    All output, 0 input.
    Thats the reason why INdians dont need those silly one child rule like China,….
    hell, they simply export their surplus….taking over the world BY stealth, one nation at a time,.

    The facts speak for itself….

    Annexed by Outright invasion….
    Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland, and Tripura., Sikkim, Goa,

    Overrun by legit/illegit immigrations
    BHutan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Fiji, Singapore, Myanmar

    Welcomed with open arms…

    fukus, Oz, Canada, NZ, AKA the [[[five liars]]]

    All of the above except Nepal, Fiji, Sri Lanka are MOngoloid ,
    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-954b97cec06113fae673e1e526e5b6ee-c
    DO WE LOOK LIKE INDIANS ???

    iNdian travel brochures tout their cultural diversities and NationalGraphic grade scenery in the NE, but did they bother to ask the Nagas, Manipouris etc etc, whether they wanna be a part of this ‘amazing diversities’ ?

    Out of sight, OUt of mind….

    The greatest dirty secret of our time,

    They didnt broadcast these genocides,

    THE TIBET THAT NO INDIANS OR ANGLOS DARE TO TALK ABOUT,.

    https://newint.org/features/1994/06/05/keynote

    whiteys who whine about diversity aint seen nuthin yet, there’s been a gawd damned yellow genocide going on for seventy years, zapped by Indian WMM, aided and abetted by their anglos cousins.

    [1]
    fOR the uninitiated,
    WMM = Weapon of mass migration.
    With the yanks, you never know how dumped down they are.

    Exhibit A
    https://www.gearoidocolmain.org/rohingya-psyops-us-covert-war-myanmar/

    • Replies: @Lin
  349. Biff says:
    @John Arthur

    There are 180 million Whites in America with a production of $16 trillion.

    Keep in mind in the litigious U.S.A. they count lawyers and their earnings as GDP, and so there is likely other superfluous items being counted..

  350. @Cyrano

    They demonstrated it for 3000 years then we invaded and destroyed their country now they’re ahead of us in type 2 thinking in engineering, chemistry, math and computer science and closing fast in physics, biology and medical science.

  351. @Bombercommand

    Yes. I cut and pasted that from a manuscript for a book that will be published in the Fall of 2020. If it’s not true by June of next year it will be deleted.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  352. @AaronB

    “ But what you actually get is real world China 🙂 A country that can’t even compete with the US,”

    China’s economy is 30% bigger and growing 300% faster, it’s ahead of us in science and technology, it’s wealth and income are far more equitably distributed, trust and support for its government is 3x ours, it’s kids graduate high school three years ahead of ours and live longer, healthier lives, it’s cops are unarmed and it’s prisons are—compared to our—empty.

    In what universe can China not compete with us?

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  353. @FB

    FB it is quite simple. China partneri png with foreign universities is smart. You are the silly one if you don’t think that is wise. But again you act as if the Russians or the US didnt start all their rocket and missile technology from the Nazi scientists they kidnapped or gave clemency to. Everyone builds from something else. Fact is China chose to focus on other applications of its brain power. Now it is focusing more on things like space and aviation. Your hatred and bias shows to much. Only to the hardcore racists would they not see the folly.

    But stop the folly of airline politics. If you were honest you would know why the ARJ 21 is not certified in the US. Doesnt change the fact that China has a good air line safety record… Better than Russia. Europe has acknowledged that China’s air certification standards are as rigorous as theirs. That is a fact of reality. The US wont – but so what. After the last Boeing incident no ome takes US regulators seriously.
    Doesnt change the fact that yeah China relied on German tech to start its High Speed Trains. Now they have their own tech and their trains run faster than anyone else and has a safety record better than Europe and is bested only Japan (who never had a fatal accident).

    Again as to the CR 929 – I gave you the SPECIFIC detail of which party is designing what. since you have comprehension issues I will explain again. Russia is focusing on engines – wings – tail. China is focusing om fueselage – cockpit – flight controls. Again your hatred is blinding you.
    Russia is no doubt better at China at engines and jet/rocket propulsion. But there is way more to technological advancemnt than those. Claiming that overall – Russia is ahead of technology in China overall is silly. You can look at most metrics to see it is folly. Being that China now dominates the top 500 supercomputers – with more and more homegrown technology – I wouldnt be the least bit surprised if it catches up in engines in the near term either. Laugh if you want. The Germans thought it would take 20 years for them to catch up in high speed rail. It took 10 for them to pass Germany. In the CR 929 part of the agreement is that China will eventually start to be able to use their own engines as well. Again – China didnt beg Russia to join the project. Russia knows why it is colloboratimg with China in many facets. You seem to think kts the 1950’s still.

    • Replies: @FB
  354. @John Arthur

    Much of American “wealth” is on paper assets whose value is tied to propping up financiall markets. Germany and China have a much lower percentage of their wealth in financial chicanery. People can hate Wall St. But that is what makes America look so big economically.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  355. @Biff

    Its not just the lawyers. Look at Germany. Doctors in Germany make much less than US doctors. But they also dont graduate flooded with debt. Yet Germany also gets better healthcare results than the US – even if you just control for the white population (which in the US has serious opioid and obesity issues). So the healthcare and univeristies in the US have serious pricing issues. The univiersities can at least argue they are the best. The healthcare results for a 1st world country are relatively abysmal. The WHO even notes that a child born today in China will live more “healthy” years than a child born in the US.
    But yeah its not just lawyers why the cost of an MRI is many times more in the US than in Japan.

  356. @Showmethereal

    Nah. A vast chunk of US net wealth comes from our tech exporting powerhouses and our retail giants. Financial services do matter, but again not a bad thing for US to accumulate assets in investing.

  357. @Lin

    Actually one of the factors for the dramatic rise in Net Wealth in US is due to our companies high performance following the Great Recession, and our ability to perform better in per-capita terms and aggregate terms than Western Europe and Japan post recession. This led to global capital investing heavily in United States

  358. Lin says:
    @denk

    You probably misunderstood hindutwadi attitude on family size. How many kids enough? 1 kid? 2 kids? 4 kids? …I understand india fertility rate is slowly declining but might not be fast enough.
    Outwardly, they just don’t admit they have serious demography related employment problem.
    http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/after-sakshi-maharajs-4-kids-remark-a-bjp-leader-now-asks-hindu-women-to-bear-five-children/
    ……..
    Honestly not my biz as long as they keep to their veggie diet and don’t push up prices of fodder commodities like soy.
    The following link is even more interesting: Basically a hindutwadis manifesto on demography. A gem

    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-now-shankaracharya-vasudevanand-says-hindus-must-produce-10-kids-for-narendra-modi-to-become-pm-again-2053573

    “We should have 10 children. One child each for for Agriculture, IAS, Military, Internal security and social work and give the rest of them to us, we will teach them and will make them Sadhus like us.”
    (I checked that IAS =India Administrative Service.) Not surprisingly that he didn’t mention kids for manufacturing or industry; could be those are jobs for low caste hindus. Interesting enough that 5 out of 10 kids are to be sadhus which are social parasites:
    http://my.yoga-vidya.org/profiles/blogs/there-are-70-lakhs-of-sadhus

    • Replies: @denk
  359. @Bombercommand

    Sounds like ‘marketing department’ to me. And it happened.

  360. @Godfree Roberts

    Thank you, Sir. Best wishes for the success of your new book.

  361. @Godfree Roberts

    This whole misunderstanding between you and AaronB seem to be over what metric is more important: Aggregate vs Per Capita.
    As he and I pointed up thread, China’s demographic advantages are so big that it will be bigger than the US substantially even with 1/6 the productivity of the Average US White worker.
    Remember still, Chinas Net Wealth, the best indicator for National Power, is still *half* of the US.
    As AaronB pointed out, China has had these advantages for centuries now, and it never extended power beyond it’s own borders.
    In terms of total innovations, Europe(including Ruddia) and US still lead, and in per capita terms, the gap isn’t close.
    China is #1, but as Aaron and I have pointed out, it never should have been close in the first place-they should have been steamrolling us from the start…

    • Replies: @last straw
  362. @Lin

    I do agree that nominal takes into account quality is a better reflector of National Power.
    I agree that Thailand and India are dramatically poorer than what their PPP numbers would indicate.
    But I still think PPP is a fairly useful way of looking at things

  363. FB says: • Website
    @Showmethereal

    Excuse me punk…do you have any aerospace engineering qualifications…?

    No…?

    Then how the fuck do you think you can assume a mouthy tone with me…?

    I don’t have unlimited time to waste on tree monkeys…you have made all kinds of wild claims here without backing any of that up…do you know what a LINK is…go ahead and show me some links to back up your horseshit…otherwise shut your tree monkey beak…

    From Bjorn Fehrm…

    CRAIC, which is based in Shanghai, was formed on 22 May 2017.

    Development will predominately be done in Russia and assembly in China. Entry into service is projected for 2027.

    Both the Chinese and the Russians realize the limitations of China’s design and engineering contribution to this sate of the art aircraft…I know for a fact the Russians aren’t going to let the Chinese ruin this project by giving them more responsibility than they can handle…

    They will be responsible for MANUFACTURING the fuselage and tail…their role in designing it will be commensurate with their actual capabilities…ie SECONDARY…

    As for German technology after world war 2…it was the Russians that defeated the Germans…who did the Chinese defeat in order to claim technology…

    Also comparing China to where the US and Russia were in comparison to Germany is completely LUDICROUS…

    The Germans were INCREMENTALLY ahead in some important aerospace technologies…notably the V2 rocket, which was the brainchild of one very talented individual, Werner von Braun…

    Proving once again, how just one genius can have a huge effect…

    However…the Russians quickly improved on that technology and within 15 years of the end of WW2 put the first man in space with rocket technology that had advanced by huge leaps over what they got fro Germany…

    China has not been able to advance any of the technology it has bought…

    China’s little YF100 rocket engine [their most powerful rocket engine] was bought from the Russians as the RD120…they have not even been able to match the performance of the engine they bought…never mind improve it…

    The Long March 5 has made two flights total with ONE FAILURE OUT OF TWO…while similar Russian heavy lift rockets [Proton] has flown over 400 times…since 1965…

    The European Ariane 5 has flown over 100 times…

    All Chinese human spaceflight technology was bought from Russia lock stock and barrel…

    You claimed China was ahead of Russia in space technology right now…not 10 years from now…

    So much for your incredible diarrhea about China being ahead of Russia RIGHT NOW…

    Yet even in the face of being proved a complete fucking moron…you have the nerve to fly at me like a persistent house fly trying to get stuck in my hair…

    That’s one Chinese character trait I have noticed…they are incredibly cheeky…which shows they have no self-respect…

    Any self-respecting person recognizes his own limitations and would naturally respect those with superior knowledge and qualifications…that’s the intelligent way to proceed…

    But you have not shown that you posses that bare minimum of self-respect…you don’t mind making a total jackass of yourself here…

    Over on the other thread the conversation shifted to combat aircraft…and as usual Godfree Roberts continues to make an ass of himself…so I had to point out…

    The Chinese bought ONE Su33 from the Ukrainians and proceeded to build a knockoff for the Varyag [renamed Liaoning] carrier which they also bought from Ukraine…their knockoff of the Su33 is a DISASTER…even the Chinese military people are pissed…

    In September 2013, the Beijing-based Sina Military Network (SMN) criticized the capabilities of the J-15 as nothing more than a “flopping fish” incapable of flying from the Liaoning with heavy weapons, “effectively crippling its attack range and firepower,” an unusual move as it contradicted state-owned media reports praising the fighter.

    You and your fellow tree monkeys have unloaded quite a bit of diarrhea here…which I have DISMANTLED…for the benefit of all readers here…

    But I really can’t waste any more time on a tree monkey…you go ahead now and show me LINKS to where the Chinese are responsible for DESIGNING what exactly on the CR929…

    Also show me the LINKS to the certification deal with EASA…

    Until you do that…don’t bother me anymore…I simply don’t have the time to waste…

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  364. Smith says:

    What? NOT compete with China and let them manufacture tanks and planes for us too?

    What? Is Godfree really fucking retarded?

    I don’t want chink tanks and planes, I want my own tanks and planes.

  365. denk says:
    @Lin

    Honestly not my biz*

    Neither is it mine,

    BUt not when the world’s greatest exporter of WMM come online and spit gratuitous venom…

    Here’s another one,

    *Derbyshire” then feels entitled to talk about race matters in any way. Maybe some deep seated knowledge of being a utter failure and trying his best to prove otherwise. Maybe that’s why he speaks in glowing terms of his insect-bride*

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/september-diary-my-return-to-china-after-18-years/#comment-3490797

    There’r lots more where they come from…

    INdian WMM already genocided almost a dozen of Mongoloid countries, abetted by fukus.

    anglos invited Indian WMM into their lot cuz its an aryan thingee,

    The seven sisters , tho,
    certainly didnt deserve these sex crazed vermin running amok in their pristine homeland,

    How did the seven sisters end up as INdia’s sex slaves.

    *Thereafter Indian government launched large scale operations in Naga territory branding the Nagas as ‘hostiles’, ‘insurgents’, ‘misguided elements’ ‘extremists’, ‘miscreants’, ‘terrorists’, ‘treacherously blood-thirsty’ and the like. Indian Army’s Reign of Terror started and the endless stretch of agony began all over
    …………………..
    Assaults on women were such that Indian troops were in no way better than the irrational animals. Forced practices of sodomy upon men were strange to the Nagas. It was a new civilization introduced in Nagalim by the Indian soldiers. Torturing to death through rude less beating, thrusting stick into the rectum of private parts of men and women, hanging upside down were daily phenomena. Mutilation of the bodies of women and men who had been raped or tortured or shot, to death displayed to the public in some towns and villages with the warning that the same fate awaited those who refused to accept the constitution of India. Some people were even forced to eat their flesh before they were killed

    Tip of an iceberg….

    These genocides were not televised.

    https://www.quora.com/Will-Nagaland-and-Manipur-get-freedom-from-India

  366. @John Arthur

    China hasn’t started steamrolling for historical reasons. It’s possible that China would have evolved to capitalism from a feudal society and started development 500 years earlier if they had not been conquered by the Manchus.

    BTW, compared to GDP, net worth estimates are not very accurate.

    Regarding PPP vs nominal GDP, the distortion caused by exchange rate is far greater than other factors, such as quality and consumer habits, combined. That’s the reason why PPP was created in the first place to compare GDP between countries.

    This whole misunderstanding between you and AaronB seem to be over what metric is more important: Aggregate vs Per Capita.

    But The European share of world population was actually greater than 20% from 1500-1950. The share of European population only started to decrease below 20% in the 1960s because of the dramatic increase of population in the rest of the world.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  367. @last straw

    Indeed, as I mentioned I utilized PPP in all of my comments upthread as I liked it for living standard purposes.
    Net Wealth estimates have some level of inaccuracy, but they tend to be pretty reliable. People make big money getting this stuff right.
    Even if you use PPP, it doesn’t really change anything much that I described above
    Thanks for the pointer on European populations
    One thing that is in favor of China, that Europe did not have, was that China was united and had relatively stable governments.
    Today, China is a continuation of a 2000 year old civilization.
    Remember,
    China has no massive internal, dysfunctional minority population like Black Americans(who constitute 13% of US population)
    Their Han Chinese(who compromise the productive part of their workforce) are 95% of the workforce, and 95% of the population. In contrast, productive White Europeans compromise only 60% of US workforce.
    I think all the evidence leads to China having *massive advantages* that the US does not.

  368. denk says:
    @Kevin Barrett

    *The key US imperative will be to limit China’s dominance of Eurasia (and by extension the world). How? By helping strengthen non-Chinese entities.

    Where to start? Strengthen the weakest entity, Dar al-Islam.*

    Been there, done that.
    What do you think BUsh, Clintons, obama, Trump have been doing all these years ?

    If you cant beat them, send in the jackals…

    Exhibit 6
    Terror in Afpak…

    *An anti-American Islamic fanatic is arrested in Afghanistan, flown to Guantanamo Bay and then released back to Afghan authorities. He’s supposedly seething with anti-Americanism. But after crossing the border and returning to Pakistan, his first mission is to kidnap and kill a Chinese engineer.In doing so, Abdullah Mehsud also becomes the first Pakistani to kill a Chinese citizen on Pakistani soil in a high profile case, creating an unfortunate precedent in the sixty-year long history of close Sino-Pak ties.Mehsud was anti-American. Or was he? We haven’t seen him target any high or low profile American assets since the famous 2004 kidnappings*

    http://advocateyousuf.blogspot.com/2007/07/sino-american-turf-battle-in-pakistan.html

  369. AaronB says:
    @John Arthur

    These facts are indeed remarkable, and should remind us that “paper facts” don’t necessarily translate into the real world.

    That is why I cannot stress enough the need to look at reality and history and not “numbers”. Time and again the numbers don’t translate well into reality.

    Based on my reading of history, I believe China has peaked. The promised “genius wave” will obviously not materialize. Genius emerges after the first shock of encounter with a foreign culture – like Europe in the Renaissance – not centuries after, with the building of fancy r and d centers.

    China, with four times the population of the US, will certainly continue to be an enormously important economic center. And the West is obviously going through a relative short-term decline – a period of social break up and reorganization along new lines, of political and social instability that weakens it in the short term but is the necessary precondition for a new creative synthesis of the kind that characterizes Western history – that will make China even more important in relative terms, temporarily.

    But in a very real sense, this late in the game, China has peaked. What you see is what you get more or less. This is the China we will have for the next few centuries. Important but not dominant, with no great genius wave, with stability but no genius.

    People forget – and this point can’t be stressed enough – that genius necessarily goes together with instability. You can’t pursue stability and at the same time expect genius. That China is primarily pursuing stability pretty much closes the door to genius.

    That is why you have silly Chinese people talking about the need for fancy expensive r and d centers before Chinese genius can manifest – before they understand stability, not genius. Genius thrived in Europe’s period of chaos – the age of fancy research centers is the age of dullness.

    • Agree: John Arthur
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @John Arthur
  370. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    To me, the fascinating and truly important phase of modern Chinese history will begin when it will give up its crude, vulgar, and futile quest for dominance and reconnect with its chaotic Taoist side.

    That is the true world-historical role of China, its true task in the modern world. China will never match the technological genius of the past 500 years of Western history, now winding down anyways all over the world. That task was given uniquely to Europeans, and it is over and done with.

    The next phase in history is to consolidate our technological gains and go beyond the technological outlook – to give up control, and work with nature rather than against it, submit to it rather than dominate it.

    And for this, Chinese history is uniquely suited. But first China has to feel confident and security, so economic development etc is necessary.

    But if the meaning of Chinese history was merely to become another of history’s temporary economic powerhouses – what a waste!

  371. That is why you have silly Chinese people talking about the need for fancy expensive r and d centers before Chinese genius can manifest – before they understand stability, not genius. Genius thrived in Europe’s period of chaos – the age of fancy research centers is the age of dullness.

    So MIT, Stanford University etc are just signs of dullness? This is one of the silliest comments I have seen so far on this site.

  372. @MEFOBILLS

    The U.S. adopted Zionist finance capitalism in full after WW2. WW2 was a bitter harvest, as finance capitalism won. China kept their state banks after Tienanmen square incident, a lucky turn of affairs for them.

    Here’s some facts for you:
    1-The zionist private Banking cabal took over the control of money completely in the US in 1913, with the Federal reserve act. Not after WW2
    2- The People’s Bank of China (PBC) is a member of the BIS (The Bank of International Settlements), A GLOBALIST institution. The BIS is a central bank of central banks, a Secretive Group That Runs The World and is part of the Globalist elite to establish one digital currency and ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT.
    Any of the countries that is a member of that Unholy private cabal that is controlled by INTERNATIONAL PRIVATE FINANCE having complete immunity from anything, cannot be called “Democracy” or “sovereign” as far as I am concerned.
    https://www.bis.org/about/member_cb.htm

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  373. d dan says:
    @last straw

    “Good institutions are more likely to create good R&D programs. That’s why they are so important.”

    Yes, and I heard Jack Ma and other billionaires are also funding some of these institutions, and more research grants, scholarships, award money,…

    Those are good trends. I am sure they will provide the researchers with more freedom to choose their areas and less political interference.

    • Replies: @last straw
  374. @AaronB

    I disagree with the R&D comments, but agree with your comments on chaotic, dynamic change that we see in Western Society.
    Of course, any system has a non-zero change of complete collapse, and the West is no different.
    But, its ability to reinvent itself is something that is truely special, and is probably why the West as been more innovative than the equally(if not slightly more) intelligent East.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  375. AaronB says:
    @John Arthur

    Used up my agree button. But I agree with you here.

  376. Ron Unz says:

    One ironic aspect is that one hundred or more years ago, during the peak of “European scientific racism,” it was widely believed that China would fairly soon regain her traditional position as one of the world’s leading economic and perhaps political powers. For example, here’s an excellent 1911 book on Chinese society by A.E. Ross, one of America’s greatest early sociologists:

    http://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-changing-chinese/

    I also discussed various other prominent figures taking a similar position in an article I published a few years ago:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    Obviously, the various national disasters of the early and middle decades of the 20th century, including WWII and Maoism, considerably delayed this whole process. But if you’d shown the place of China in today’s world to the leading American intellectuals of 100 years ago, I don’t think any of them would have been all that much surprised.

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @AaronB
    , @John Arthur
  377. d dan says:
    @Ron Unz

    “…. if you’d shown the place of China in today’s world to the leading American intellectuals of 100 years ago, I don’t think any of them would have been all that much surprised.”

    Neither would Napoleon. 🙂

  378. @AaronB

    Einstein came up with his theories while a postal clerk.

    All you need is a first rate brain….

    Einstein was working in the Patent Office of Switzerland, not a Post Office and it seems that his real achievement and it was a real achievement, was to put together the work of three other mathematicians, to realize IOW, HOW the three works fitted together. See Linh Dinh’s article Jewish Genius in this site.

    Anyway, research institutes help produce ideas, merely because they cause bright people to spark ideas off each other. Rutherford understood this when he was leading the world class Cavendish Laboratory in Cambridge; he instituted a daily tea time, (which was almost compulsory) with cups of tea, small cakes and sandwiches and the only rule was that you had to sit next to people who were working in a different field to your own.

  379. AaronB says:
    @Ron Unz

    It’s fascinating how the same set of facts can be interpreted so differently.

    To me, the fact that for the past 300 years various eminent Western thinkers have been saying China’s dominance is imminent, and it hasn’t happened, suggests that these predictions are more reflections of an individual’s state of mind and mood rather than objective fact.

    It seems periodically, Westerners who are fed up with their own civilization project their hopes and fears onto China.

    I would place Ron in a long line of Westerners, starting with the French philosophes, whose attitude to China reflect a personal mood. This happens regularly enough that we should clearly define at as a Western trope and invent a name for it. It is a real cultural phenomenon and will be with us as long as there is a West and there is a China.

    Likewise, the fact that China seems so great on paper but so poor in real life suggests to me the unreliability of paper facts. But for those who wish to see otherwise, it merely predicts the imminent dominance of China, just around the corner.

    Anyways, in the last quarter of the 19th century the West suffered a loss of civilizations self confidence that was spiritual and cultural in origin, and any statement by Western thinkers must be seen in this context.

    In truth I am sympathetic to Ron – I too am fed up with contemporary Western civ, and would love to place my hopes on China. It’s just contemporary China is as bad and getting worse.

    In my own way I think China will save us all in the “imminent” future lol – just through a Taoist revival 🙂

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  380. @Ron Unz

    Agree Ron, I don’t think anyone is shocked that China is now #1, given the demographic advantages. The politically correct media, which sees no difference between the culture of the Chinese and the Somalians, was shocked, as was most Americans who did not take off the restrictive blinkers of political correctess.
    However, I think the way that China eventually came to its current position was totally unexpected.
    If you had told Stoddard and Ross that a future Chinese leader would starve his people so much that the population would increase by a factor of a billion people, they would have been completely shocked.
    And if you mentioned that such people would gain the world power once again with only slightly more than 1/5th the productivity of the average American they would have also been totally shocked as well.
    Funny enough, I would think they would be more interested in the success of the Japanese and the Koreans than the Chinese, who are much closer to the West in Per capita terms than China.
    Anyways, I don’t think people are denying that China will be big. The debate is how much of China’s success is due to demographics or policy.

  381. @Commentator Mike

    What’s the point of consumer products?

    The point of consumer products is that they provide finance for the industrialization, research and also satisfy peoples’ wants. This is one area where the USSR’s planned economy fell down. They thought like you. The Chinese did not make that mistake, they called their policy “walking on two legs”.

    Of course, the most important consumer goods of all are foodstuffs. Without food, nothing can be done. Therefore it is necessary to have farmers, and to get farmers to work well and enthusiastically and economically, it is necessary to give them things that they want. I.e. consumer goods. To grow the economy rapidly and to keep the population, working hard and happy at the same time,it is necessary to develop consumer goods, services and heavy industry simultaneously.

    As “consumer goods” is a very wide field containing an almost innumerable number of items, it is impossible to plan adequately and this is where small and not-so-small capitalist enterprises fit. It also provided a market for the machine building industry. The taxation of the consumer goods industries and services can pay for the investment in basic things like infrastructure and heavy industry.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
  382. @Galan

    Fighting for your rights doesn’t make you a wahabi. Uyghurs have been fighting for their rights before the wahabies came into existence. Your hatred is blinding you.

    “Fighting for your rights” is one thing stabbing random passers-by at railway stations and blowing up buses full of civilians are two different activities. Anyway, what rights were they fighting for? The right to have four wives? The right to throw queers off rooftops? The right to behead Christians, or people of other religions or the wrong sort of Muslims? Do tell!

  383. @last straw

    last straw,

    Do you really think that a nation that has consistently produced the best tanks, fighter planes, and rockets for so many years couldn’t produce motor cars to rival Mercs and Beamos? I have no doubt that Russians could produce the best consumers products of all sorts if they wanted to but they have decided to take a different route from the short sighted short timers looking to turn a quick buck like those elsewhere. I am not saying that such a course isn’t fraught with dangers and it could have partly contributed to them losing the Cold War, but then did they really lose much considering the state of the West today? Sure China is no threat to Russia in a military confrontation but China does represent a threat to Russia’s immense natural resources wealth in Siberia since invasions and occupations can be accomplished by different means than military ones, such as immigration as we are witnessing in the West, or via investment projects. Also do you think that a nations with such enormous natural wealth as Russia couldn’t be the richest in the world if it wished to exploit those resources to its fullest potential? But then what would be left for its future generations? For its children and grandchildren? That enormous wealth is the heritage that it hopes to protect from greedy bastards today so that it can pass onto its future generations tomorrow. At least that’s how I see it and I hope that this is the course that Russia will pursue while watching all you others fight like scavengers over whatever else is left in the world as your populations explode (or at least some of the world’s populations are exploding but Russia’s is not, and lets hope that they don’t buy into that UN policy that they need replacing because they’re not procreating at African or Indian population rates). Do you get it? I think that’s what’s called intelligence. Think about the future and not just for today or tomorrow, flashing a few trinkets to impress whoever idiots you come across.

    • Agree: FB
  384. Iris says:
    @FB

    Quantum-based communication is the future of the Internet.

    Quantum networks will provide a level of security, of privacy and of computational power that is impossible to achieve with the technologies supporting today’s Internet.

    The first, straightforward superiority feature of quantum technology is its encoding application, Quantum Key Distribution (QKD), which makes it “unhackable”. While the West is barely experimenting it, it has already been in use for several years in China, over a 2000 km-long fibre optics backbone serving Beijing, Shanghai and other major cities. It is used by all major institutions, banks, research laboratories and the military.

    The security problems using a 5G network in particular cannot be successfully faced with current encryption technologies, so QKD already appears indispensable.
    5G will have a large transformational role in people’s life, as it will further enable operation of a growing number of utilities within the “Internet of things”: smart health monitoring, driverless cars, smart energy monitoring, smart factories, smart agriculture and farming, etc… So QKD clearly has a bright future ahead.

    Other applications of quantum networks are scientific research itself, with the ability to synchronise a large number of computers and make them work as one, collaborative research, collaborative activities such as elections, creation, issuance and exchange of crypto-currencies, and the list goes on…

    The West is aware that it is lagging behind China in the critical field of quantum networks. The EU has set its Quantum Internet Alliance, managed from the Delft U of Tech.
    The USA has, in December 2018, enacted the National Quantum Initiative Act, which lavishly funds a number of quantum technology research hubs. Canada collaborates with Japan on the subject.

    But all these Western actors are badly lagging behind China in a technology domain that will greatly shape our future. And none of them can catch up, because they simply cannot match the exponential planning, support, funding and quality of human resource that China deploys. Best.

  385. Ron Unz says:
    @AaronB

    To me, the fact that for the past 300 years various eminent Western thinkers have been saying China’s dominance is imminent, and it hasn’t happened, suggests that these predictions are more reflections of an individual’s state of mind and mood rather than objective fact…I would place Ron in a long line of Westerners, starting with the French philosophes, whose attitude to China reflect a personal mood…Likewise, the fact that China seems so great on paper but so poor in real life suggests to me the unreliability of paper facts…In truth I am sympathetic to Ron – I too am fed up with contemporary Western civ, and would love to place my hopes on China. It’s just contemporary China is as bad and getting worse.

    Well, I’d be the last person in the world to deny that many things are indeed currently bad in China and that the CCP has made many, many serious policy mistakes over the last generation or two.

    But I do think one could make a pretty strong case that over the last four decades China has achieved the most rapid economic and technological progress in the entire history of the human species. And although setting the all-time #1 record doesn’t make you perfect, it does suggest you’re really doing pretty well, all things considered.

    Here’s an analogy. Suppose you’re writing a candid appraisal of Babe Ruth’s early baseball career, highlighting all his serious mistakes, his numerous strikeouts, his occasional errors. That’s all perfectly true. But I do think it’s also only fair to mention that despite those serious flaws he was still considered the world’s greatest baseball player at that time.

    Historically, activist-types like (((AaronB)) have spent all their time and effort harshly critiquing white Gentile society. But since that traditional target has now largely been destroyed and the Han Chinese are doing so well these days, the latter have naturally become the new target.

    However, since the Chinese weren’t idiotic enough to allow (((AaronB))) and his (((friends))) to gain control over their media and financial systems, I doubt they really have much to worry about…although the foolish Hongkongers have not been so lucky…

    • LOL: Biff, Flint Clint
    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @AaronB
    , @Seraphim
  386. @Ron Unz

    Sure I agree with you Ron, but like I said, I’m highly skeptical that China’s success is due to any specific policy.
    Japan went from 6% of US per capita income at PPP after WW2 in 1946 and was over 100% of US per capita income by 1990s.
    Then it caught up to the frontier, and stagnated extraordinarly afterwards for decades, with productivity per worker falling to 60% of the US numbers, and less than half of US whites.
    In a sense, this has happened to almost every East Asian nation, dramatic convergence with the West and then a protracted slowdown, with the Western European nations driving ahead.
    Recently, Korea has slowed down to Western European growth levels, despite being once again, less than half as productive as the US Whites.
    I just don’t see how China is any differently governed than those nations, but then again, China may prove me wrong.

    You mentioned that China’s development was the fastest in history, and that is certainly true. But, as you wrote all those years ago, the East Asians have developed innoculation against poverty and the cognitive deficiencies that plague poor nations, and all of this is on top of having a very high IQ.
    Good policy or not, wouldn’t any sort of capitalist kind of China have that same kind of explosive growth? Anyways, it’s not like anyone told China to self-immolate in the 1960s. Every high IQ coutnry has roughly half the produtivity of the US. Why should China get commendation for getting slightly more than 1/5th the way there?

    One of the things that stand out to me is that the Chinese model has not been replicated anywhere else. India tried to do what China did and massively build cities before people were ready to live in them, but they didnt have the social capital just yet to make it work. The Chinese model is being replicated by many African nations, with a range of middling success. Bangladesh and Ethopia look promising, but they are still very poor and time will tell. China’s success to me looks more like a typical East Asian country at 10x the size than some new model tried out, a 105 IQ nation opening up and trying basic capitalism.

    While it is certainly true that certain types of people have hijacked our democracy, and caused all sorts of nasty problems, that is not true for the rest of the world. There is nothing stopping Latin America, the Middle East, Turkey, or Southeast Asia from copying the Chinese model, yet none have done so.

    Anyways, your analysis of the US economy seems to be mistaken. While Jews have hijacked our foreign policy in great respect, especially folks like Shedlon Adelson with their idiotic and wasteful pro-Isreal hysteria, our economic problems are almost entirely due to Nimby Boomers. Virtually our entire deficit is due to the high cost of entitlements, which are fiercely protected by our overwhelmingly White Gentile Baby Boomer population. Our inability to build rapid infrastructure has gone back to the 1970s and the environmentalist movement, and this has prevented our Manufacturing sector from rising in value like Germany’s and allowed it to get wiped out by China’s, leading to our trade deficit. Our inability to build Houses is due for elderly people to artifically maintain their net wealth, since many of them stupidly didn’t save when they were working. Our tax system, which taxes income and not consumption is essentially hardcore protected by Baby Boomers on fixed incomes, and this prevents the kind of savings that you see in the rest of the Developed World.

    So Baby boomers extracting rents from the rest of the country ruined our economy, and that is what happens when one voting demographic have extremely powerfully aligned interests and have a strong demographic voting advantage. Even so, didn’t Mao’s generation in China nearly destroy a 2000 year old civilization? In contrast, this kind of event caused relative economic stagnation, not collapse, no different than Western Europe, Japan, and Korea, all of which we are still overperforming.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
    , @Ron Unz
  387. @John Arthur

    Forgot to mention, you are absolutely right that China’s ability to avoid interest politics from rootless cosmopolticans has been their greatest strength, and the US would be wise to try and emulate aspects of this policy.
    I guess this thread is getting long, so I’ll try not to swamp you with any more my idiotic ramblings. I would love to hear a response from you got one, but I think I’ve bothered you enough.

  388. AaronB says:
    @Ron Unz

    Actually, it is clear that I am championing traditional gentile white and traditional Chinese society, against tradition-destroying Enlightenment thinking in both societies.

    So I am the exact opposite of a (((“critic”))) of traditional society, according to the theory.

    I also clearly wished China a prosperous and orderly future, and am sure they can achieve it.

    What I am attacking is the absurd hyperbole about Chinise racial superiority, and the notion that this Legalist- Enlightenment hybrid that is contemporary China, combining the worst elements of both cultures, represents some kind of salvation.

    You seem to be quite the critic of contemporary Western society, and to be championing a foreign civilization, China. One wonders why exactly you aren’t a (((critic))) of white gentile society.

    I, on the other hand, am giving comfort and succor to the white West, and telling not to believe the dispiriting hyperbole about China.

    • Replies: @Flint Clint
  389. @d dan

    Yes, good R&D programs are more likely to produce good results. Anyone who does not understand this simple fact really lacks common sense. I’m not surprised that the same person does not understand that competition, not chaos, is the main driver of innovation either. After all, the relatively peaceful post-WW2 period is by far the most productive one in terms of scientific and technological advances. It’s more productive than all the previous eras in human history combined.

    • Agree: d dan
  390. Half-Jap says:
    @d dan

    I was under the impression that history was rewritten upon new dynasty being installed, and your charactarization of ‘edit’ makes any integrity doubtful about the records, even if the other points held true on an individual basis.

    In any event, with the 4 Olds having been attacked, the current mainland China is alien to their ancestors’. Perhaps a good rival of the Mongul invasion and rule. I am unsure how sure you two (Roberts being the other) are about this tradition of having history be so sacrosanct an unalterable. Even the #2 story could be a story recorded later to legitimize the dignity of the profession.

    The cynic is only surprised by being proven wrong, as often one is right about the nature of people.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @Godfree Roberts
  391. Half-Jap says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    It definitively was a turning point in history. I don’t meant to throw shade on this, or subsequent inventions and advancements in all that contributed to our collective advancement. Nowadays, they all seem to glorify the rest, but without that spark of innovation, perhaps, there’d be much slower progress, if any at all.

  392. Half-Jap says:
    @Half-Jap

    I may be wrong about the Monguls as my memory is hazy about what I studied long ago. Sorry about that in advance. In any event, even the most recent history re Japan and RoC, it’s just so wrong and without respect to all those that were involved, from Xibei San Ma to the spoiled Last Emperor, to the Guanxi mafioso, and other warlords in that great civil war. Also probably disrespecting some genius plotting by Mao.

  393. Seraphim says:
    @Ron Unz

    Sometimes ‘personal moods’ reflect a deeper ‘situational awareness’ of what is going on in the world than . It was a French ‘practical philosopher’, who understood it better and epitomized it in a few words. Napoleon, certainly in a bad personal mood, exiled at Saint Helena, uttered this warning which went unheeded:
    « Laissez donc la Chine dormir, car lorsque la Chine s’éveillera le monde entier tremblera/Let China sleep, because when she will wake up the whole world will tremble».
    The ‘Westies’ try to hide their trembling under a flippant attitude: Oh, no, China is a paper tiger! All it can really do is a ‘Taoist revival’. If…

  394. Ron Unz says:
    @John Arthur

    I just don’t see how China is any differently governed than those nations, but then again, China may prove me wrong.

    First, I should emphasize that one reason I thought China’s rapid rise was pretty likely back in the late 1970s was that smaller Chinese states such as Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan had already followed that exact trajectory, as had mid-size East Asian countries such as Japan and South Korea. Since all those places had a variety of different governmental systems, I’m obviously not saying that all of the credit goes to PRC governmental policies.

    Still, I do think that such extraordinarily rapid growth in a gigantic country like China is much more difficult to achieve than in tiny places like Singapore or Hong Kong, or even mid-size countries. Moreover, when I’ve looked into the numbers, China’s rise has actually been even more rapid than in those other places, which really is quite astonishing. So I do think that the PRC government and its policies deserve a good share of the credit, and people can argue about how much.

    With regard to America’s current income and economic standing, I’m far more pessimistic than you are. I think a great deal of our current PPP income is artificially inflated by the dollar’s reserve-currency status, which (among other things) our crazy sanctioning and foreign policies policies are persuading the rest of the world to abandon. Once that happens, I think American income will collapse, and we’ll realize just how poor we’ve actually become.

    Also, don’t forget that the top 1% of Americans have far more net wealth than the bottom 95%, and much of that wealth is in assets that might very well collapse, especially once the Dot Com 2.0 Bubble finally bursts. For example, Theranos was worth $9 billion, making Elizabeth Holmes the wealthiest woman in America, but it was just a fraud and a hoax, and $45 billion WeWork startup seems in the same category. The WSJ had a nice article a few months ago suggesting that maybe Amazon should really be worth $100B instead of $1 trillion, so maybe another $900B disappears. By contrast, I think much more of the Chinese corporate wealth is actually “real.”

    I remember during the early/mid 2000s, I kept on thinking and saying that the mortgage market had gotten totally crazy and was sure to collapse. But then a year went by and another and another, and there wasn’t any collapse, so I started thinking that maybe I was just wrong. However, sure enough, it eventually did collapse, even worse than I expected. Timing is always difficult to get right.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/averting-world-conflict-with-china/?display=showcomments#comment-2698393

    • Agree: d dan, Wizard of Oz
  395. @Half-Jap

    Mao’s Four Olds campaigns, like almost everything he did, was deliberately misinterpreted and mis-reported.

    As someone who had seen the decline and fall of the Qing Dynasty, Mao rightly saw that the accretion of centuries of foreign–including Manchu–customs, culture, habits and ideas needed to be swept away.

    Mao’s enemies, foreign and domestic, claimed he wished to destroy Chinese culture, mostly because they lost status thereby (an allegation made by all emigre elites).

    In fact, Mao wanted to return society to its radical Confucian roots, which he did, and successors will, at his behest, become the first dynasty in history to achieve Confucius’ first societal goal, the establishment of a xiaokang society in 2021, when every Chinese will own a home and have a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health insurance and old age care.

    After that, it’s on to Socialism with Chinese characteristics (his phrase):

    Now to have states, families, and selves is to allow each individual to maintain a sphere of selfishness. This infracts utterly the Universal Principle (gongli) and impedes progress. …Therefore, not only states should be abolished, so that there would be no more struggle between the strong and the weak; families should also be done away with, so that there would no longer be inequality of love and affection [among men]; and, finally, selfishness itself should be banished, so that goods and services would not be used for private ends. … The only [true way] is sharing the world in common by all (tienxia weigong) … To share in common is to treat each and every one alike. There should be no distinction between high and low, no discrepancy between rich and poor, no segregation of human races, no inequal- ity between sexes. … All should be educated and supported with the common property; none should depend on private possession. … This is the way of the Great Community [dàtóng] which prevailed in the Age of Universal Peace
    (From Kang Youwei’s Liyun zhu (Commentary on Liyun)

    It doesn’t get more Confucian (or socialist) than that.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  396. Arioch says:

    Greta might be most recent desperate attempt of TNCs at preventing their fragmentation.

    In russian: http://worldcrisis.ru/crisis/3468059

    But probably futile one, as it already was in Ancient and Middle Ages.

    Rich West can close their markets from competition using Gretagate. But it can not police emerging markets that way, so will loose them and go into historic sunset

    ————-

    Coming back to the question of the title, no you can not.

    > invest our bounty in advanced technologies t

    Ice age is coming and dynosaurs (giant TNCs) are bound to extinction.
    They could step aside and facilitate domestic mammals (small to medium enterprises) growth. But they won’t. Until they crash and burn with all western economy

  397. @Ron Unz

    Yeah, I understand your pessissism about the US. I think that the examples listed above are really an example of creative destruction in the US economy, and the investments that went into Elizabeth Holmes and WeWork will go somewhere else.
    I actually used to believe what you say about bigger countries having more difficulty developing than smaller countries, but I am no longer convinced that is the case. The economic divergence between the US and Canada, and Australia and New Zealand, and Germany and Poland, despite all each group’s countries sharing similar policies.
    https://www.econlib.org/is-the-uk-about-to-become-canada/#comments
    In fact, I am convinced that the powers of scale in larger countries entirely overcome the problems of developing large countries, all else held equal
    I think this is the main reason for immigration in the minds of elites, as they have quietly become aware of these trends in the last few years.
    John

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  398. denk says:

    Should We Compete with China? Can We?

    No worry, if we cant beat them, send in the jackals !
    Exhibit 200

    Imagine if you’r a jihadist joe in Mali, hounded and bombed, droned by murikkan jsoc ever since 911.

    YOu just took over a five star hotel , found a bunch of murikkans, Indians, Chinese, Russians tourists cowering in the lounge , perhaps you’d wanna go for that big juicy group of murikkans, prolly their Indians associates as well , to avenge your bro killed by the great satan ?

    well, the jihadist who took over a five star hotel in Mali, nov 2015, went straight for the Chinese and their Russian associates and execute them, totally uninterested in the murikkans .

    What stuff were those jihadists smoking ?

    It might even look like the jihadists staged that siege specifically to bump off the Chinese, who happened to be senior executives from the China rail Corp , on big assignment in Mali .?

    This wot stuff is getting curiouser and curioser these days,
    heheheheh

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/terror-in-mali-an-attack-on-china-and-russia-one-third-of-the-victims-were-russians-and-chinese/5491869

  399. @Ron Unz

    Mr. Unz, first of all, I agree with you on the hollowness of America’s economy. I had started reading a site about the housing bubble on the west coast back in ’05 or so, and I DID believe it. Sure enough 2 years later … boom. GDP, BTW, can include all sorts of things. While in China, it may include thousands of miles of high-speed rail, in America, it may include 100’s of thousands of billable hours of high-priced lawyers’ suing everyone and everything in sight.

    Now, let me say that I respect very much your hosting of this site and your inclusion of all kinds of opinions. Though I am very anti-Communist, perhaps you’ve got a hundreds of thousands of Commie readers who read a few of the authors here, just as maybe the same amount or more of American race-realists who read Steve Sailer, Paul Kersey, and John Derbyhire. (I’d include Fred Reed, but he’s mostly just a walking stumbling billboard for Ole Mexico – “come for the Senoritas, stay for the cheap Tequila!”)

    OK, that written, you’ve got this Godfree Roberts here. Being a realist about the rising of super-power China, or a China promoter is one thing. As I’ve written, I’ve been to China near a dozen times, and am pretty impressed (and with some things, pretty depressed). However, when it comes to the Communism in China, Mr. Roberts sounds like he’s plagiarizing a 1975 copy of the CCP newsletter.

    My question to you, Ron Unz, is not “why have this guy writing here?” No, it’s fine, and I don’t have to read it. My question is “do you think Godfree Roberts is full of shit?”

    • Replies: @Iris
    , @Ron Unz
  400. @FB

    Not sure why i bother with someone who is obviously rabidly filled with hate but I will give it one last shot.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-2650_en.htm&ved=2ahUKEwiQi43t4qjlAhXjRd8KHS26CeMQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1XbM2bnRXIqlifthJ-9NaK&cshid=1571503912582

    Read the link above. You could have easily looked it up yourself but chose not too – as if I have time to waste. It is as clear as day from the European press release that they have finalized a deal for both aircraft and airlines to reduce duplication in their certification processes between both to help bring down costs – increase safety – and increase travel between the 2 regions. Again both aircraft produced and airlines themselves.

    To aircraft… Again anyone with sense knows the Chinese saying “cross the river while feeling the stones” is how they tackle problems. The ARJ21 is for the domestic market. They started with a small regional jet to build a program before they take the next step forward. The FACT is that it has carried hundreds of thousands of passengers and has a great safety record. you can try – but those are facts. The C919 is the next step up. Again I tried to use high speed rail as the example – but your brain can only seem to perceive rocket and jet engines. As to the CR 929 – You link one source who makes a claim that most of the CR929 will be developed in Russia and only manufactured in China. That goes completely against any mainstream news and any official acknowledgement by both parties. Anyone with a modicum of sense can type in CR929 and find SUNDRY articles detailing the joint efforts on design and the fact thay China actually currently has more engineers working on it as the Russian side ramps up. There is also the agreement that engineers will go between Moscow and Shanghai to ensure the independent teams are in sync. I dont have more time to waste posting links. As i said these are nomsecret knowledge like your source claims – anyone can search the official sources.
    Lastly – you keep talking about propulsion. Anyone including the Chinese knows Russia is ahead in that. It was an open secret they bought the SU 35 solely for studying its engines. There are WAY more things involved than just propulsion. That is also true of space. In any event – time will show who is right and who is wrong.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FB
  401. Iris says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    My question is “do you think Godfree Roberts is full of shit?”

    Your question should be instead: does American mainstream media live in a bubble?

    The answer is: yes. Mr Roberts is not the only intelligent, insightful and well-informed person highlighting the widening civilizational gap between the US and China.

    Legendary financial strategist Ray Dalio, who manages Bridgewater, the largest investment fund in the world, illustrates China’s irresistible rise to power and the tensions created by her ascent:

    Fund manager Donald Amstad predicts that the current Western economic decline will materialise in terrible social unrest, going to the extent of, sadly, predicting a quasi civil war in the USA in particular.

    Don’t shoot the messenger; accept reality so you can at least influence it in your interest.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  402. FB says: • Website
    @Showmethereal

    Wow…

    Again little punk…what aviation qualifications do you actually hold that you think you can argue with an aeronautical engineer and test pilot with decades of high level experience…?

    That ‘agreement’ does NOT change the fact that China has NEVER certified an aircraft to legally fly outside China…

    In order to do so any Chinese built aircraft MUST be certified by the air regulator to which it is flying…EASA in the EU and FAA in the US…many other countries simply piggyback on those two…ie if you have their certifications [both for aircraft and for pilots] then they recognize that…

    China is a non-entity in civil aviation…

    This agreement states only that the EU will REDUCE ‘duplications in certification and evaluation activities…’

    There are no details given OR ANY DOCUMENTS ISSUED…and even though I work in the industry, nobody actually knows how much Chinese domestic certification [either pilot or aircraft] will be recognized…IF ANY…it’s all politics and no substance…

    But here is some actual inside information for you punk…the certifications that EASA may possibly ease up on are what are called supplemental type certificates or STCs…these are modifications to already type-certificated aircraft…

    STCs are peanuts…there are literally tens of thousands of them…as opposed to just a handful of airline transport aircraft type certificates…

    The pilot certification obtained in China is NOT recognized by the EASA or the FAA…and the CAAP [chinese aviation authority] likewise demands a ‘conversion’ process for FAA or EASA licensed pilots..

    Even though the FAA and EASA have ‘harmonized’ a lot of both pilot and aircraft certification, you still need need to convert your airline transport pilot license to EASA…although this is quite minimal…

    Likewise in type certification of new aircraft…it is NOT automatic…and the rules between the two are being constantly revisited…here’s what the FAA says…

    Typically, the FAA and EASA do not completely duplicate each other’s certification of aircraft products, instead each entity performs a “validation” of certification activities.

    The new TIP revision will permit increased acceptance of approvals without technical involvement by the authority conducting the validation.

    In certain cases, the revised TIP also will allow a streamlined validation process to expedite issuance of a type certificate without technical review.

    Are you starting to learn a few things bonehead…aviation is a complicated and exacting field…it’s not for tree monkeys…

    This ‘agreement’ with China is nothing of this kind as you had falsely claimed…

    There is no such thing as AUTOMATIC RECIPROCAL CERTIFICATION anywhere in the world…even between close partners like the EASA and FAA…

    This phantom ‘deal’ you are touting is just window dressing…no actual procedures have been published on how exactly the EASA is going to ‘reduce’ duplication in the certification processd…

    And again I challenge you to produce such documents…since you remarked that I should ‘study’ that…

    How do you ‘study’ a zero…?

    China insisted on getting something from the EU and it was holding the EU hostage because it would only allow countries with which it had BILATERAL aviation deals to even fly into China…

    Since lots of people fly to China from Europe this was a useful political weapon, because it worked to increase costs for air travelers…

    With this so-called ‘deal’ the EU now gets to fly into China without having to have separate deals for each country…

    This in no way changes the fact that you have been spraying diarrhea here, because you simply lack any actual aviation knowledge…IDIOT…

    And don’t accuse me of race hate punk…you’re an absolute zero who thinks he knows something when he doesn’t actually know anything…

    You need to learn respect…that’s a very basic thing…

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  403. @Iris

    I think you’re barking up the wrong tree, Iris, when you warn me about the American media bubble. I have not had cable TV connected in 20 years and don’t watch if over the air either. I’m the last person to ever click on the NY Times, Yahoo, etc. headlines, and am not on FB, twitter, and any of that crap.

    I have no problem with messengers with new insights, but Godfree Roberts spreads nothing but flat-out lies about Communism and China under Communism. Listen, Iris, I was there. Not in China, then, but I was around during much of that era, and thousands of historians and personal Chinese contacts don’t all lie about this history. On current China issues, Mr. Godfree will only publish the bright side but never the down side. I have been to China a lot, and I’ve seen both. I’ll take Mr. Derbyshire’s words, and even Mr. Fred Reed’s (though he was writing just as a tourist, while Mr. Derbyshire knows some Chinese and LIVED in the place before) over this Commie Roberts.

    Both the Russians and the Chinese were very lucky to have gotten out of the yoke of hard-core Communism. America won the external Cold War, but has been all but defeated in the internal one that we didn’t all know we were even involved in till recently. It’d really be nice if the world didn’t fall for this evil ideology yet again, but it is that time when Commies start crawling out of the woodwork again …”.

    Fund manager Donald Amstad predicts that the current Western economic decline will materialise in terrible social unrest, going to the extent of, sadly, predicting a quasi civil war in the USA in particular.

    I have no argument with that – I think it’s very likely. Sure enough, problems in society will be blamed on free-market capitalism, something that hasn’t been seen so much in America in recent times, and will be proposed to be “solved” by Communism.. OR ELSE!

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @Godfree Roberts
  404. FB says: • Website
    @Showmethereal

    And one more thing bonehead…

    The certification of the CR929 will be handled in Russia…as I already pointed out…

    The CR929 engineering and design center will be a separate legal body that will be responsible for obtaining and maintaining the aircraft’s type certificate.

    That reflects the fact that China’s nascent civil aviation industry and expertise is limited and they are simply not up to the task of handling the design and certification of a world class aircraft…

    A surgeon likewise needs to be certified to perform operations…you don’t just walk into a hospital and start performing surgeries on people just because you think you can…

    That sums up your level of stupidity…

  405. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    No need for misrepresentation or misinterpretation, as that is what we ironically refer to as destroying the village to save it. And this fetish with 孔子, who I consider one of the earliest utopians, and as such, fits in nicely with Communism. Beautiful, such as it is; What I see in practice is the extension of 韓非子’s philosophy, of the most practical early security state, currently at maximum strength, with my sympathy to the CCP. One could live quite happily and society would appear in harmony, but only under threat of grave consequences for bad behavior or illegal actions.

    It is great sloganeering to blame the failings of a thoroughly decayed dynasty, fine path to gain popular support, but itself does not seem to go beyond the earlier dynastic cycles. This time is probably not more or less special than before, except modern technology. But for every perfectly utopian society, there shall be then the Underground Man, whose ranks shall swell and eventually tear it all down, through commission or omission. Otherwise, there’s always the internal threats, for when the time comes, the righteous Chinese general will rise once again, as before. CCP may try to break the cycle, and I do wish them luck. We here won’t want to get sucked into that quagmire again.

  406. Half-Jap says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Agreed about Roberts been the guy showing us the bright side of China, and that itself is valuable in the present media/educational environment. However, as a stern skeptic myself, much of his assertions have issues with their foundation, such as the respondents’ awareness of the consequence of being negative about their government. Being there often myself, and being a fan of history and philosophy, I have sympathy for the course the CCP is taking, but everybody I’ve engaged are interested in getting out of the way of the govt, and if govt does good, they’re glad, but priority is not have them involved in their lives. These people know the deal.

  407. @Achmed E. Newman

    Godfree Roberts spreads nothing but flat-out lies about Communism and China under Communism.?

    Can you provide us with three direct quotes of my ‘flat-out lies about Communism and China under Communism’ with links and explain precisely why they are lies?

    Many thanks.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Iris
  408. @Godfree Roberts

    Nope. I’ve done this before, probably a year or so ago. Just the premises that your BS is based on have to be explained first, and it goes one and on. It’s just your whole view of what happened in China under the Communism of Mao ZeDong. Your whole world-view is a lie.

    I ask you again – have you been to China? When? (I don’t need exact dates, just within a coupla years.)

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  409. Ron Unz says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    OK, that written, you’ve got this Godfree Roberts here. Being a realist about the rising of super-power China, or a China promoter is one thing…My question to you, Ron Unz, is not “why have this guy writing here?” No, it’s fine, and I don’t have to read it. My question is “do you think Godfree Roberts is full of shit?”

    Well, I do think he somewhat exaggerates how absolutely wonderful everything is in China now and will be in the near future. But our MSM is far more ridiculous in the opposite direction, so I’d probably be much closer to him. I also think he’s generally correct about certain major historical events such as the Tiananmen Square “massacre.”

    However, I’m very skeptical of his claims about the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, which he seems to largely whitewash. Personally, I think they were exactly the gigantic disasters that the PRC government has claimed for decades and that virtually all Western scholars believe.

    I also believe that China’s enormous success has been due to its abandonment of Maoism around 40 years ago, which is exactly when its economic and technological growth curves suddenly became exponential. As I recall some of his earliest articles seemed to strongly dispute this and argued that Mao’s economic policies were better than those of Deng and his successors.

    So in the matters where I most sharply disagree with Godfree, I think my views are shared by the current PRC leadership.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Showmethereal
  410. I also believe that China’s enormous success has been due to its abandonment of Maoism around 40 years ago, which is exactly when its economic and technological growth curves suddenly became exponential.

    Absolutely. I tried to explain this to the guy and his sycophants a few times to no avail. I read your Tiananmen Square article and am somewhat skeptical of what I read. I do agree that the Lyin’ Press has had an agenda for a long time. I wish I had personal info. on that 30-year ago event from the Chinese people I know.

    As I recall some of his earliest articles seemed to strongly dispute this and argued that Mao’s economic policies were better than those of Deng and his successors.

    I remember this, but I don’t think it was long ago – it’s his current story.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @Godfree Roberts
  411. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    I also believe that China’s enormous success has been due to its abandonment of Maoism around 40 years ago, which is exactly when its economic and technological growth curves suddenly became exponential. As I recall some of his earliest articles seemed to strongly dispute this and argued that Mao’s economic policies were better than those of Deng and his successors.

    When you consider just how poor and backward China was in 1949 the economic achievements of the Mao era were not inconsiderable. You could argue that Mao provided the launching pad that Deng was then able to utilise.

    You have to remember that Deng and his crowd were Mao’s bitter political enemies so they had an enormous vested interest in discrediting Mao. It’s not in the interests of the current PRC leadership to say anything positive about Mao.

    Deng’s embrace of capitalism may have been the correct decision of course.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Half-Jap
  412. @FB

    You are actual both sad and comedic in both your hatred and arrogance. You can try to spin things however you want. The Russian civilian aircraft market is nothing to brag about so your assertions are simply nonsense. The Sukhoi Super Jet struggles and yet you disparage the ARJ21. It is simply nonsensical. Neither the MC 21 nor the C919 programs are complete – but you cast aspirations. You cited an “expert” article stating the MC 21 is innovative when the information pointing to thefact that the MC 21 has a substantial portion of its suppliers from the west as well. The fact they are COLLABORATING on the CR 929 is the admission on both sides that Airbus and Boeing are far ahead. Even the article you cited about the engineering and design center doesnt fit your narrative. It stated clearly the main headquarters in in Shanghai and that it took a lot of wrangling from the Russian to get the Chinese to allow the engineering side to be headquartered in Russia. Your narratives simply do not match up. Again – Russian civil aviation is not a model for anyone at this time either. Mitsubishi is also struggling. It is currently a 2 horse race.
    You ahould calm down… Or maybe a long vacation would do.

    • Replies: @FB
  413. Biff says:
    @dfordoom

    You could argue that Mao provided the launching pad that Deng was then able to utilise.

    I tend to believe this as well. I think that Mao applied some organization skills to the lessor governments across the board that helped unify a once haphazard disorganized rural countryside – this in turn helped provide the cities the resources they needed to develop. Didn’t come without a cost, but the labor pains make the baby.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  414. Half-Jap says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    And here I thought abandonment of Maoism was a given to current success 😛
    Mao had great speeches, his little red book of jazzy confucianism, and a cult of personality.
    All my mainlainder friends would rather not discuss the past and rather talk about how we can work towards the future…. except when they are outside. Awesome people.

  415. Half-Jap says:
    @dfordoom

    Any half-competent leader would have done as much, more or less. Probably would have done better under the relatively more professional RoC, but neither here nor there now.

  416. @Ron Unz

    I agree Mr. Unz. Mr. Roberts I do believe exaggerates somewhat – but I also agree he is much much closer to the truth than mainstream western media. I know non-Chinese people who have lived and continue to love in China. I know non-Chinese people who visit for business and vacations. None of them have a negative tone toward China – even when acknowleging they have challenges – just like everywhere else.

    • Replies: @Ber
  417. @Biff

    Inded Mao did go crazy in his last 20 years… But there is a reason people were drawn to him and not Chiang Kai Shek and the KMT. That said – people forget that as noted by declassidied documents and writers that were “old China hands”… Even before the Nationalists fled the mainland for Taiwan – Mao sent messages to Truman stating that China wanted to be friends with the US and not be tied soley to the Soviet Union. Truman never responded and history became what it became.

  418. denk says:

    Shall we compete with China……can we ???

    If you can beat them, send in the jackals ,
    Exhibit 300

    Why did the Mali ‘terrorists’ bumped off Russians./Chinese,instead of murikkans , who killed milliions of their comrades since 911, during the Nov 2015 hotel siege, ?

    We’d never know,

    BUt when a bunch of Pak Talibans stalked and slaughtered Chinese tourists in Mar 2012, they actually declared ,
    ‘This is to avenge our bro killed by murikkan drones’ !!!

    OMFG !

    To avenge their bros killed by murikkan drones, they stalked and slaughter Russians/Chinese in Afpkak !!

    Remember Mohamad Mehsud, the Taliban chief released from giTMO, who immediately kidnapped and killed some Chinese engineers ?

    Now we really know the Pak Taliabans are nuts.

    OTOH, when dozens of Chinese workerts were slain during their sleep, pumped full of bullets fired from AK47, in Afghan, JUn 2004, The murikkans puppet regime immediately blamed the Afghan talibans, who vehemently denied,…
    ‘We’ve no issue with the Chinese, we only target fukus and its puppet regime’.

    No wonder in Afpak, they say Afghan TTB are good Talibans, they target the great satan, whereas Pak Taliban are BADdies , who target Russians/Chinese,
    the enemies of great satan !!!

    https://www.news.com.au/world/breaking-news/gunmen-kill-11-climbers-in-north-pakistan/news-story/7407ef057cdbb931afb22adbd8ba1685

    WarOFterror, Indeed.

  419. FB says: • Website
    @Showmethereal

    Look clown…you have now exhausted all your bullshit, which I have carefully debunked…so there is no point in carrying on this conversation…

    I will sum up here, but will not be responding to any more comments from you or other fools here…

    Like I said, your main problem is that you seem unaware of your limitations…having absolutely no knowledge or experience in the field of aviation…

    Now you are calling into question Bjorn Fehrm’s expertise…so I guess his degree in aeronautical engineering and many flight hours as a fighter pilot counts for less than some little shovelhead on an internet board…?

    That right there tells the reader everything he needs to know about your attitude…

    But let us recap…you claimed, absurdly, that China was AHEAD of Russia in space technology ‘right now, not 10 years from now’…

    But we see that China is actually not even where Russia was 55 years ago…they have not been able to develop a good indigenous rocket engine…their workhorse engine is based on a Russian design they bought in the ’90s at firesale prices due to Russia’s weak leadership at the time…

    Similarly with their human spaceflight technology…when it comes to space technology almost nothing has been INVENTED in China…

    The exact same thing is true in both military and civil aviation…earlier you remarked that it’s a good thing that Putin is OK with China illegally copying Russian fighter aircraft and engines etc…yeah I guess that’s a good thing for a burglar when he comes across a household that doesn’t mind you carting off their television set…

    After being shown to be completely delusional in all these fantastic statements you made touting China’s nonexistent aerospace technology…you then started another attack vector about aircraft certification and the supposed European recognition of Chinese airworthiness certificates…which I quickly showed to be bullshit…

    So with your legs choppped off you are left standing on what…your ass…?

    This appears to be the case, because now you are making comments about Russia’s aviation ‘market’…when in fact the discussion was about technology…

    As for comparing the ARJ21 to the SSJ100, we note that they both had their first flight in 2008…since then 172 SSJs have been built, compared to 18 for the ARJ21, and has taken years longer to achieve even Chinese certification…

    The SSJ received certification from the FAA and EASA and flows regularly for both European and North American airlines [Mexican airline flies into US southwest regularly]…

    It’s true that they have had serious issues with maintenance and spare parts and absolutely need to move ahead much further in this respect…this just shows how demanding a business civil aviation really is…it’s not enough to roll very good airplanes off the assembly line [passengers love the SSJ100 for its extra room…lots of reviews on youtube]…

    China has zero experience in this…at least Russia has had the opportunity to have a trial by fire with its SSJ going up against the western competition…

    As for comparing the design of the SSJ and ARJ again we see that the ARJ is pretty much a straight knockoff of the Mcdonnel Douglas MD90…

    The SSJ is a very good original design that does use some foreign content…the engines are a 50-50 venture between France’s Snecma and Russia’s Saturn…

    But now with the new state of the art Russian PD14 engine entering service, this will be replaced by a downsized version of that new engine…which is expected to spawn an entire family of engines right up to the PD35 for the CR929…

    So the simple fact is that Russia has the capability to make civil aircraft with zero foreign content…they have been doing this for more than 60 years…how can you possibly compare China’s capabilities here when they have never actually built a real civil aircraft…[again the ARJ 21 can only fly in China, and eve there it is mostly a science project]…

    You sniggered with sarcasm when I presented a chart showing the amount of flight days logged in space by country…showing China with 165 days total…less than Belgium or the Netherlands…

    Nice Graph…

    …you cracked…that right there tells people how ridiculous you are…

    Experience and ACHIEVEMENT do count for something in this world…or perhaps you think they are irrelevant…because China doesn’t actually have very many achievements in the aerospace field…?

    The same is true for civil aviation…China has logged zero hours in internationally certified civil aircraft…but of course this doesn’t mean anything because…‘wait and see’…

    Well you now what…those of us who actually work in the aerospace field have been waiting and watching for quite some time…and we see very very slow progress…

    China has advanced impressively in many fields, but aerospace is definitely not one of them…

    And now that I think about it [thanks for destroying my previously high opinion of Chinese character as being mostly prudent and circumspect]…and also considering the incredibly slow progress the Chinese are making in aerospace [despite massive technology transfers and copying opportunities]…one has to really wonder why…

    The simple fact is that the Chinese should be way ahead of where they are right now in aerospace…

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  420. Iris says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    As an illustration to the OBOR map illustrating your article, here is an interesting interview of very respected financial analyst Alasdair McLeod (From 15:00).

    He touches at the creation of a new major geopolitical alliance (China-Russia-Iran) which will de facto control Asia and Eastern Europe, and will finally materialise Mackinder’s Heartland, 120 years after the concept was drawn out.

    He also comments on how Chine is secretly stocking up large quantities of gold, to cater for the US dollar being increasingly used for coercive pressure, which is likely to hasten the collapse of the current monetary system. Best.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  421. Ber says:
    @Showmethereal

    I believe Mao had said that events will swing like a pendulum every XX years? Deng’s -“capitalist roader” has swung too far? … and now the current PRC leaders’ pendulum seem to be swinging in the other direction again, but ever in a smaller arc. So in all probability, Godfree Roberts is ahead of the curve and his take may not be exaggeration after all.

  422. @Achmed E. Newman

    Can you provide us with three direct quotes of my ‘flat-out lies about Communism and China under Communism’ with links and explain precisely why they are lies?

    You haven’t done it before.

  423. @Achmed E. Newman

    Address the stats, not the statistician.

    I’ve given you abundant stats to demonstrate that, despite a massive drought and our truly fiendish embargo on grain shipments, China built more infrastructure in the three years of the Great Leap than India built in 30. Of course it was a disaster, as Mao very publicly acknowledged and for which he was disciplined. But, had harvests maintained their post-1951 trend, it would have been no more than a failed experiment that left a legacy of superb infrastructure. A wash, in other words.

    The Cultural Revolution achieved, at very little cost (the economy continued growing twice as fast as ours and there was little bloodshed) the political emancipation of 400,000,000 peasants.

    But–like the current achievement of lifting the entire population out of poverty–emancipating peasants isn’t sexy. Few people are sufficiently emotionally mature to care about those below them, let alone sacrifice their lives to set them free. That included most of China’s elite, including its government.

    Mao was sufficiently mature and he did risk everything to free them, and the PRC is beginning to admit it.

    In the new edition of eighth grade Chinese history textbooks from the People’s Education Press, the word “erroneously” disappeared from the description of the Cultural Revolution.

    In the old edition, the relevant part read: “In the 1960s, Mao Zedong erroneously believed that there was Revisionism in the party’s Central Committee and that the party and the country were facing the danger of capitalist restoration. In order to prevent the restoration of capitalism, he decided to launch the ‘Cultural Revolution.’”

    In the new textbook, the wording became: “In the mid-1960s, Mao Zedong believed that the party and the country were facing the danger of capitalist restoration. To this end, he emphasized ‘taking class struggle as the key’ and trying to prevent it by launching the ‘Cultural Revolution.’ In the summer of 1966, the ‘Cultural Revolution’ was in full play.”

    Deng, whose family was perhaps the most corrupt in China, failed to completely restore capitalism because–despite violent suppression and mass executions–the peasantry wouldn’t stand for it and the students turned out in Tiananmen Square carrying banners, “It doesn’t matter whether the cat is black or white, as long as the cat (Deng) resigns.”

    The Cultural Revolution was the only 60s revolution that succeeded.

  424. @Iris

    I’m working on a piece about how existing alliances on the Eurasian continent are being knit together–while our media remain completely oblivious to the process. I’ll include the video. Many thanks.

  425. Lin says:

    But we see that China is actually not even where Russia was 55 years ago…they have not been able to develop a good indigenous rocket engine…their workhorse engine is based on a Russian design they bought in the ’90s at firesale prices due to Russia’s weak leadership at the time…

    Honestly I found the above hilarious or you’re emotionally f**ked up
    The russ launched sputnik 1 in 1957 and sino-russ relation turned sour in 1958/59 and you tell me they transferred their jewel of crown tech to china in 1958? The R-7 rocket that launched Sputnik 1 used LO2-kerosene as fuel while the Chinese CZ-1 that launched china’s 1st satellite used storable nitro fuel

  426. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Socratic Truth

    1-The zionist private Banking cabal took over the control of money completely in the US in 1913, with the Federal reserve act. Not after WW2

    Yes, everybody with a pulse knows that the Federal Reserve act was in 1913, along with other machinery, like the 17’th.

    Post WW2 British Atlantacism methods passed to the U.S.

    That includes Rim theory, and other Zionist constructs.

    POST WW2 is therefore a more important date than 1913. There was also Bretton Woods, then IMF/World bank and other mechanisms installed.

    In 1913, world war 1 had not been completed yet, and the banksters had not gained full control.

  427. @Godfree Roberts

    Address the stats, not the statistician.

    What statistician? You’re not a statistician, you’re a bullshit artist. You seem proud, in fact, that the Chinese government Ministry of Truth or Education has changed a paragraph in the 8th-graders’ books to reflect what is the current narrative. You may be forgetting that many these 8th graders could just ask their grand- and great-grand- parents what went on during the Great Leap Backwards and the Cultural Revolution.

    Both destroyed millions of lives, though the latter more via psychological means than physical. Now, you say that students protested in Tiananmen Square because they thought there was too much Capitalism in China? Haha, that’s a new one.

    I’ve really never run into a hard-core Commie before, even on-line. It’s downright sickening. How will you face your Maker after all these lies?

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  428. anon19 says:

    All I know is I see tons of Chinese inviting themselves to western countries, not the reverse….

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  429. @anon19

    Thats why education is important. 1) taxes in the US – Australia – Canada provide them with many many exemptions so that their wealthis taxed at a much lower rate. Thats why not many go to France. Taxes on wealth are high in France. 2) China doesnt have fully open investment asset classes to invest. They are going slowly so that they dont end up with the financial chicanery of financial crises. So Real estate is the go to investment in China. After people buy 3 houses in China they need other places to invest their money in. 3) another tier are just corrupt and are trying to sneak their money out.
    But really its not that much. Read the “wealth migration report”. Only 2% of China’s wealthy people leave each year. Thats really nothing. Russia is 6%. You can also read reports in wealth creation. The UK is losing more wealthy than it is creating right now. China and India as well are still creating many more wealthy than those that leave. I am not talking about news reports with political bias. Read the actual research reports which are available online.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  430. @Achmed E. Newman

    Actually what Mr Roberts said about Tiananmen is not “new” at all. If you even search back to the i itial reports of the protests that spring the western media did start by reporting as it was. Students were upset that the Party was turning from egalitarianism to wealth and corruption. Even the great Lee Kuan Yew in his memoirs noted that even though he was anti communism – he admitted they ran a tight ship. Very orderly and conservative. When Deng opened up the party became utterly corrupt as they found how “nice” (my word) making money was. Lee locked up people just on suspicion of being a communist – so he had no reason to flatter. I digress. So thats why if you go back and watch videos those students at the beginning were singing Communist songs from Mao’s era. Thats not secret info – the videos still exist. All thhat western style democracy talk didnt happen until many weeks in. Those radio broadcasts from Radio Free Asia and certain “journalists” no question had plemty to do with that. The media narrative that fhanged in the west won you over. Just as the fact is it wasnt the students who were mostly killed. It was mostly factory workers that were rioting. They were mostly killed (well them and the crowd around them). Unlike the students many of them were real tough guys. They were angry because there was a lot of jon security and loss of benefits as China turned towards capitalism. Thats not Godfree Roberts spin. Thats a fact. Even the first few days after the killings the NY Times reported that those workers started killing soldiers. Then I guess “Operation Mockingbird” took over in the media – while “operation yellowbird” was taking place on the ground scurrying the students to Hong Kong and then to Taiwan and the west. I bet you believe that was just spontaneous – right? Lol.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  431. @Showmethereal

    I read Mr. Unz’s article on this, SMTR. I don’t dismiss all that he and you say here. However, this equivalence between “capitalism” and “corruption” is wrong. There is corruption in all government systems, the bigger the government the more types of corruption. It doesn’t help when your people are Chinese, meaning there is not a natural trust between anyone who is not a fairly immediate family member or one of your guanxi buddies.

    I will elaborate more, but I have stuff to do right now. I’ll write back much later in the day.

    I don’t wanna be a dick or nothin’, but could you write back in paragraph form after I write more? Please?

    • Replies: @Biff
  432. Biff says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I don’t wanna be a dick or nothin’

    The ship has sailed.

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
  433. Jazman says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I recently had argument with one book publisher owner of Booknook.biz
    Any thoughts about her claims against China . For my point of view look ridiculous . I would like if you can comment your opinion is very respected
    ” do you know what GINI ratings are? The system that measures inequality? Since 1978, China’s GINI ratings have gone from highly egalitarian to being more unequal than Mexico, Brazil, and Kenya, as well as the US and all of Europe. So, this Chinese Utopia of which you speak—the vast majority of the Chinese people damn sure aren’t feeling it. Only 12% of Chinese population remotely rates as “Middle Class.” Overall, more than 66% are lavorers, peasants, industrial workers or agricultural laborers. None of them will make it into Chinese “middle class.” The migrant labor force is 250Million people, by the way, in China. They have over 400million—400 million!—rural residents.

    The worker-made economy? 60 hours a week for barely $64/week. Basically, they are modern-day peasants. Union membership is worthless.

    I think, instead of looking at Chinese propaganda, you should take another look at what’s really going on there. I find it really humorous, too, that you write about all this on a site that you couldn’t freely visit, were you living in China. Is the USA perfect? No—but as I noted elsewhere in this thread, more people in the world want to come to the USA than any other country. By a VAST margin. For that matter, more people want to come to the US than the next 5 countries, combined. So, say what you will—we can’t be all bad here, or 750M people wouldn’t be trying to get here. And oddly enough, almost nobody seems to be dying to relocate to China.

  434. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I wish you were right there with my parents-in-law for that Cultural Revolution. Soul and body in service of the Party…or else. All is worth it to realize the utopia, Confucian or Communist or whatever. It is always us small minded ones who never understand the value of the greater picture.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  435. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    You never addressed my statistical criticisms before, except ask me how to deal with them. And such is the conundrum with gauging the Cinese population. As stated elsewhere, I propose that they are not dumb and understand the deal with their governate. One proxy, out of other possible proxies that any reasonable statistician would attempt, could always survey the pop about their understanding of such security state instead of how happy they are about being under such state. Your surveys are as surprising as result of majority support for the NorK govt. Of course they are always so happy. Or else the state could get in their business, though not necessarily.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  436. denk says:

    *Shall we compete with China*

    Trump……

    What for, ?
    simply slap a global ‘Chinese exclusion Act’ on Huawei, the Chinese would crawl to us and cry for mercy !

    A sample of headlines

    Washington order allies to ban Huawei,

    Nepal pressured by the murikkan embassy to ditch Huawei in favor for another Co recommended by the murikkans

    NZ, the spooks overrode minister’s decision on Huawei,

    NZ, pressured by Washington, ban Huawei,

    Efforts to discredit Huawei highly succesful,

    JOint US/OZ bid to block Huawei in PNG,

    nsa began a covert program against Huawai in 2007

    Oz blocks Huawei’s bid to lay undersea fibre cable for Solomon island.

    Oz pressure Solomon island to drop Huawei,

    Oz, Cannada put pressure on Solomon island to drop Huawei,

    SK caved to US presswure to ban Huawei,

    Tip of an iceberg,..

    p.s.
    It pays to be the biggest and meanest mofo in town.

    hehhehe

    • Replies: @denk
  437. Lin says:
    @Jazman

    Either your data are wrong or outdated.
    Regarding Gini coefficients, I checked a no. of sources, China’s GINI rating is not worse than Mexico, Brazil, US…
    http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/gini-coefficient-by-country/
    (a note:the world bank measurement are different from CIA’s)
    While china is still classified as a developing country, the average chinese workers definitely definitely don’t work 60 hours a week for barely $64/week.
    According to Chinese gov stat bureau, about 140 million Chinese families(lets assume family of 3, so about 420 million people)are ‘middle class’ which is definitely as 1)Can afford vacation 2)own car 3)Can buy home. If you want to tell me the Chinese gov lied on such numbers, there’s a number of sources to check, like china’s car production, number of chinese tourists, flight volume..
    ……
    I usually don’t bother to comment on such issues except when some people got excessively emotional or brain washed

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Showmethereal
  438. Iris says:
    @Jazman

    Since 1978, China’s GINI ratings have gone from highly egalitarian to being more unequal than Mexico, Brazil, and Kenya

    Oh, come on, give us a break.

    Over the last 40 years, China has lifted over 850 million people out of the poverty. It is the biggest developmental effort in the history of humankind, as stated by the United Nations and the World Bank, not just by Mr Roberts.

    Instead of acknowledging the increasing poverty that is crippling the West, thanks to our so-called “market-driven” political system which serves only the oligarchy, it is much easier to blame Chinese patriotic governance, the lazy White “deplorables”, the low-IQ Blacks, and any analyst who points at the flaws in our “wonderful” democracies. Truly pathetic.

  439. Lin says:
    @Lin

    Typo: Should be” which is defined as 1)Can afford vacation 2)own car 3)Can buy home”

  440. @Half-Jap

    Soul and body in service of the Party…or else.

    What was their status? What was their service? What was their role in the CR?

    And…or else what?

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  441. @Half-Jap

    Regardless of time, place, or culture, in my experience 90% of people trust and support governments that improve their lives and the prospects of their offspring.

    90% of people don’t care, or even know, about fellow-citizens being suppressed, mistreated, or even enslaved if they are doing well.

    Since their government has consistently improved Chinese lives and the prospects of their offspring for 70 years, that is sufficient explanation for their support in public opinion polls.

    You and I, who are interested in such refinements, can argue about comparative degrees of suppression, etc., bu 90% of people will simply fall asleep listening to us.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  442. @Showmethereal

    This just in:

    A new report by Credit Suisse shows that the number of rich Chinese people has surpassed the number of wealthy Americans for the first time as both countries continue to produce millionaires at fast rates. “This year, for the first time, China recorded more members of the global top 10 percent (100 million) than the United States (99 million),” the Swiss bank reported in its annual wealth survey released on Monday.

    And, btw, the overwhelming choice of residence for the world’s billionaires is not London or New York, it’s Beijing.

  443. @Jazman

    do you know what GINI ratings are? The system that measures inequality? Since 1978, China’s GINI ratings have gone from highly egalitarian to being more unequal than Mexico, Brazil, and Kenya, as well as the US and all of Europe. So, this Chinese Utopia of which you speak—the vast majority of the Chinese people damn sure aren’t feeling it.

    Only 12% of Chinese population remotely rates as “Middle Class.” Overall, more than 66% are lavorers, peasants, industrial workers or agricultural laborers. None of them will make it into Chinese “middle class.” The migrant labor force is 250Million people, by the way, in China. They have over 400million—400 million!—rural residents. Where are you getting your statistics? Can you provide links?

    The worker-made economy? 60 hours a week for barely $64/week. Basically, they are modern-day peasants. Union membership is worthless.

    I think, instead of looking at Chinese propaganda, you should take another look at what’s really going on there. I find it really humorous, too, that you write about all this on a site that you couldn’t freely visit, were you living in China. Is the USA perfect? No—but as I noted elsewhere in this thread, more people in the world want to come to the USA than any other country. By a VAST margin. They come here for the same reason I did: the competition is weak. To see what I mean, read The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective By Puzhong Yao. American Affairs. https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/11/western-elite-chinese-perspective/

  444. Erebus says:
    @Jazman

    The worker-made economy? 60 hours a week for barely $64/week.

    Maybe decades ago, but today that’s rubbish.

    The minimum you can employ an unskilled, able-bodied labourer for in a major city like Shenzhen, Guangzhou etc is ¥3.5-4k/mo, which translates to ~U$115-130/wk. That’s for 40hrs, and beyond that it’s 1.5x rate and 2x rate on Sundays & Holidays. Casual labour can be had cheaper, but that’s another issue. Salaries for skilled labour ramp pretty quickly from there. The restaurant down the street from my office is advertising for an English speaking waitress. Now, that is likely to be for a 60hr week but they’re offering ¥8-9k/mo depending on experience and English speaking ability.

    You can certainly live on that.

    I find it really humorous, too, that you write about all this on a site that you couldn’t freely visit, were you living in China.

    UR is slow because of it tends to hang for a while at ajax.googleapis.com and Google’s blocked, but UR itself isn’t. I read it daily when I’m in China. No VPN required.

    And oddly enough, almost nobody seems to be dying to relocate to China.

    There are approx 1M foreigners with resident status in China, and my guess would be that there’s at least 10x more than that on various non-resident visas and work permits. Yes, there are more people wanting to go to the US than China. More people would succeed there. What would a Mexican labourer/Honduran peasant/Haitian or an Indian do in China? What use would China have for them, or their extended families? Furthermore, China isn’t on the diversity bandwagon and doesn’t welcome the world. If you aren’t bringing business and/or don’t have skills that are in demand, you have little chance of getting anything beyond a 30 day tourist visa.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  445. @Showmethereal

    OK, chief, here’s the reply. Life under the Chinese hard-core Communism was hard, but when you are nothing but a draft horse that feeds out of a trough, perhaps any change to the arrangements of the troughs is something to get upset about. Freedom and choice are beyond the imagination. What I mean is, that I can fully understand that many of the old Chinamen under Communism didn’t want the changes under Deng.

    The cries of corruption go on in China over and over again. Some people get thrown in jail, others executed, and others go scot free due to more corruption. I’ll get back to this in a minute. Perhaps Chairman Deng was more corrupt than Mao. I don’t know. It doesn’t mean that Mao wasn’t, though. As I wrote in my quick reply, corruption is present whenever government is big, whether ostensibly Democratic (like ours, note the ostensibly) or Communist.

    In its early days, most Americans had ZERO dealings with the Feral Gov’t, other than during war time, as it was small. You had your corruption regarding the railroads and railroad land back in the 1800s, as, sure enough, government was involved. Maybe it’s the multi-century period (from first major colonization to, say the 1930s) of America’s past or it’s just inherent in the people, but the nation was a VERY trusting society in the past.

    China cannot have this, and corruption is inherent at every level of life down until the family level. Is it a genetic thing, or that the Chinese have lived with big government for 5,000 years?

    I don’t know, but then we can come to an example of a high-trust society that did have* a Socialist (meaning big) government. That is Sweden. Steve Sailer would say that because there was such a unified population of people that came from the same ancestry, they acted like one big family, and strangers acted with a lot of trust.

    Hell, I guess this comment is getting far away from the events of Tiananmen Square, so I’ll just reiterate that corruption is all over China, because

    a) They are Chinese, and it’s just kinda what they do
    b) Their government is big and overpowering.

    It’s not a matter of the ideology of the government whether there will be corruption or not. People in a place like that want to be on the side that gets the goodies, that’s all.

    .

    * Still does, but massive immigration is changing the high-trust part.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  446. Vidi says:
    @Jazman

    do you know what GINI ratings are? The system that measures inequality? Since 1978, China’s GINI ratings have gone from highly egalitarian to being more unequal than Mexico, Brazil, and Kenya, as well as the US and all of Europe.

    A country’s GINI can depend on how you count. Did you include the State Owned Enterprises (SOEs), which are an enormous part of China’s economy?

  447. Erebus says:

    It’s not a matter of the ideology of the government whether there will be corruption or not. People in a place like that want to be on the side that gets the goodies, that’s all.

    Yes, corruption is endemic to govt. Doubtless out of total ignorance, but you speak of China as if its govt was a world leader in corruption. The US is not only not immune, it’s probably the world leader, and the higher you are in govt the more you can expect to skim.

    The difference is impunity.

    China’s penalties for official corruption include the death penalty, and plenty of officials have met that fate. How many American officials have met that fate? Will the Clintons? Will the Bidens? Will any one of the corrupt Presidents, Secretaries, USM Officers, Congress critters, Senators, their assistants and adjutants? No, they’ll never even be tried.

    See the difference?

    Since Xi came to power, literally 10s of 1,000s of CCP officials have been sanctioned for corruption. China is doing something about it, and not just about official corruption. Economic crimes and criminal negligence are also punishable by death. When the tainted milk scandal broke, several executives were either executed or are (still) languishing in jail. Need a Dennis Muilenburg fear a similar fate? Nope. A golden parachute is much more likely, followed by a seat on another corporate board. Do the Sacklers have anything to fear? Nope.

    When was the last time you heard a POTUS say, as Premier Zhu Rongji announced at the start of his anti-corruption drive: “I’ve acquired 99 coffins, plus one for myself”. Zhu went on to fill them, and survived (thankfully). Can you imagine a Clinton/Bush/Obama/Trump even saying something like that, much less than then actually executing?

    Do you see that difference?

    Do you see the difference in governance those two differences indicate?

    • Agree: Ron Unz, Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  448. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Point well taken about how people are lol. And yes, the CCP has done a tremendous degree of good improving lives.

    But tacitly you do not deny, then, that there is an awareness of the social/security apparatus in place which ‘encourages’ supportive behavior of the State? Not that I find anything wrong with how one culture governs their own if it produces good results, like cleaner streets and ending homelessness. And as you say, the Party itself is not monolithic and they have their own democratic ways, but I worry that the strong-arm approach itself would be a liability when good things stop happening.

    I could say the same, and actually more scared about such situation in the US, when the market and govt cannot deliver any longer. Not so much here in Tokyo. Sorry about the scattered thoughts.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  449. @Lin

    I agree with you… But the funniest thing is the fact that China still does have hundreds of millions of rural development. So that makes it still a developing country. That means by WTO rules it can still get favorable conditions. The China haters who point out that there are still so relatively poor are the same ones who turn around and claim China cheats on trade. The hypocrisy is so laughable.

  450. @Godfree Roberts

    Mr Roberts I agree with a lot of what you say but the Cultural Revvolution was a horror show. The arrsst of the Gang of Four shows even the Chinese government knew it was wrong. They knew a cult formed around Mao (similar to the riotous democracy cult in Hong Kong right now) and neecex to be stopped.

  451. @Achmed E. Newman

    You read me wrong. Go read Lee Kwan Yew and his memoirs. He was a staunch ANTI communist. he was comparing Chinese and Soviet communism. He was saying while Soviet leaders had luxuries the Chinese leaders did not. He did not say Deng was corrupt. He calls Deng one of the greatest leaders he met. The point he made was that the Chinese had no sense of money anymore – so when the country opened up economically many in government took advantage. That is what the 1989 protests were about. That and the loss of jobs and benefits.

    Now back to the coverage. Forget what Mr Roberts wrote. Look at the hypocrisy of the news coverage. The Washington Post put this video together. They interview the photographer of “tank man”. The hypocrisy is what he says happened. He notes on June 3rd he took pictures of a murdered soldier. He sees also a burned out armored truck (there are many more). Those were the rioting workers who then began to accost him. They even hit him in the head with a rock. Why would they attack him? Westerner equals capitalism. The workers wanted to remain comminists. Even the stude ts who wanted “democracy” wanted communism still – which is why they sang Mao songs. Democracy and capitalism are too different things. But again my point of the hypocrisy is that this western journalists ADMITS and SHOWS murdered soliders and burned out vehicles and then LATER the mass shooting started. Why is it strange??? Show me one cou try that would allow such open murder to take place and not shoot.
    Talk to some US national guard who were at Hurrican Katrina. They will tell you when they felt in danger they fired. Tell me with a strange face any country would allow what that journalist witnesssed. The sad reality is he himself still condems the Chinese government while he himself witnessed murder by protesters and himself was knocked out by them. It is simply ludicrous.

  452. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Erebus

    Yes, corruption is endemic to govt. Doubtless out of total ignorance, but you speak of China as if its govt was a world leader in corruption. The US is not only not immune, it’s probably the world leader, and the higher you are in govt the more you can expect to skim.

    The difference is impunity.

    There’s also the difference between legal and illegal corruption. If a cop takes a bribe to overlook the fact that you were speeding that’s illegal corruption. If a globalist politician or bureaucrat is rewarded for faithful service by being given a cosy sinecure at the UN or as a consultant to a mega-corporation, or gets paid vast amounts of money for making speeches to bankers, that is mostly legal but it’s definitely corrupt.

    The old-style corruption, with brown paper bags filled with banknotes being handed over in dark alleys, has been replaced by more sophisticated modern methods.

    The new-style corruption is endemic in the West but because it’s technically legal we preen ourselves on our imagined lack of corruption.

    • Agree: Erebus
  453. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Showmethereal

    Mr Roberts I agree with a lot of what you say but the Cultural Revvolution was a horror show.

    By the standards of the past hundred years it was a small-scale horror show. The list of governments that have been responsible for crimes against humanity is a very long one.

    More people were killed by the People’s Liberation Army in its suppression of the Cultural Revolution than in the Cultural Revolution itself.

    The western cultural revolution that began at about the same as the Chinese one, and continues to this day, may well end up inflicting more misery. Especially if you factor in the huge increases in crime rates (including murder) which have been the direct result of the western cultural revolution. And drug deaths, the drug culture having been another by-product of our own cultural revolution.

    The number of people killed in the Chinese Cultural Revolution was roughly comparable to the death toll resulting from US sanctions on Iraq.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  454. denk says:
    @denk

    Headlines contiuines…

    Oz warns Vanuatu over non existent ‘Chinese naval base’..

    Washington/Delhi pressures Bangladesh to ditch China for Japan, to build a mega port.

    Washington/Delhi removed pro Beijing Sir Lankan prez,

    CIA/RAW bumped off entire family of pro Beijing Nepalese KIng Birendra

    ………………………..
    jeeze,

    This is more than Huawei, larger than the trade war, its a veritable
    global Chinese exclusion act .

    [[[ five liars ]]] practically run the entire planet like their private fief.

    What a cozy setup, this ‘rule based international order’ !
    No wonder [[[they]]] are so hostile to the multi polar world represented by Russia/China. !

  455. denk says:

    Achmed the spoiler has succeeded in turning another China thread into a CR/GLF/MAO debate.

    Well done achmed., !

  456. Cyrano says:
    @Showmethereal

    Similarities vs. differences between the Cultural vs. Multicultural revolution.

    Both were implemented in order to protect the system. The idea behind the Cultural revolution was that if you admire decadent western bourgeois culture – you can’t be a friend of the domestic socialist system.

    The idea behind the Multicultural Revolution – on the other hand – was that the domestic system is so great, that the domestic admirers might not be enough (or cannot be completely trusted that they might not secretly harbor some sinful socialist thoughts), so the whole world needs to be invited in order to really, truly appreciate the greatness of capitalism – otherwise known as democracy.

    • Replies: @Lin
  457. @dfordoom

    I dont mean just death toll. I mean what it did to the society itself. It brought about an utter disregard for even Chinese culture. That is why the government nowadays keeps emphasizing “Chinese characterisitcs”. They are saying the Red Guards went way too far. So now the government spends money reviving the legacy of Confucianism. It has spent money restoring historical places destroyed by the Red Guards. Respect for elders had to be restored. Intellectuals were abused – whcich set China back socially and scientifically.
    t was way more than simply the deaths. I am not comparing atrocities in different socities. I am simply talking about the damage it did in fact do to Chinese society – even if the west exaggerated the death toll. It was a cult and cults are damaging. Again the Hong Kong rioters are very similar.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Godfree Roberts
  458. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Showmethereal

    I dont mean just death toll. I mean what it did to the society itself.

    That’s fair enough, but really it’s exactly like our own cultural revolution, which has devastated the social order, destroyed both high and low culture and created an atmosphere of despair, alienation and nihilism. The only difference is that our cultural revolution has lasted a lot longer and is much more complete so the long-term social costs will be much much greater.

    China had its Cultural Revolution, it burnt out quickly and they’ve recovered. But in the West I don’t think there’s enough left on which to rebuild a civilised society.

    But the good news is that our cultural revolution has been great for the rich.

  459. @Showmethereal

    Yes, the Cultural Revolution was a horror show. It was a real revolution and revolutions, however noble in intent, are awful things for some–perhaps many–people.

    But for whom was it a horror show?

    Certainly a horror show for the 1%, the top 5,000,000, people like the Xis, who lost a daughter, did not see their son until he was fully grown nor their father until, released from prison, he could not recognize his surviving children.

    But it was a dream, a liberation from 4,000 years of oppression, for the 450,000,000 people at the bottom of the social order.

    It was a complete success for them and, eventually, for China.

    They thwarted Deng’s vicious neoliberal program in 1989 and Xi, having seen the reality of their lives pre-CR, is now completing the work of the CR–which is why he has 95% popular support.

  460. @Half-Jap

    If you worry that the strong-arm approach itself would be a liability when good things stop happening, consider what happened when good things stopped happening during the Great Leap Forward and bad things happened instead.

    At the time, the peasants were heavily armed, for the first time in Chinese history, yet there was no unrest in the countryside. Everybody just pulled together and mounted the biggest, most sustained and successful food relief programs in history.

    So long as a citizenry believe that their government is acting out of sincere concern for their wellbeing, they will endure almost anything.

    Remember this?:

    One of his disciple asked about the essence of good government and Confucius replied, “The requisites of government are that there be a sufficiency of food, enough military equipment, and the confidence of the people in their ruler.”

    The disciple asked: “If it were necessary to dispense with one of these, which of the three should be done without?”

    Confucius answered: “The military equipment.”

    “If it were necessary to dispense with one of the remaining two, which one should be foregone?”

    Confucius replied, “Part with the food. Death has always been the lot of men; but if the people have no faith in their rulers, then the state cannot exist.”

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  461. @Showmethereal

    Our media have spared no effort, and our governments spare no expense, to obscure what goes on in China.

    This has been so for 80 years and our misunderstanding of the CR has been assiduously created and nurtured. I suggest you read this as an antidote: http://www.unz.com/article/the-great-proletarian-cultural-revolution/

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  462. Lin says:
    @Cyrano

    Both were implemented in order to protect the system. The idea behind the Cultural revolution was that if you admire decadent western bourgeois culture – you can’t be a friend of the domestic socialist system.

    That’s a superficial view.
    A big part of the CR is to get rid of traditional ‘elitism’. For example, much of the Chinese operatic themes/stories are about exploits of kings, queens, nobles,..much like those of other civilizations, and Mao wanted to change that. A good parallel is Swan lake which is fairy tale of a prince and a swan princess while the opera Carmen is about the sexual exploits of a gypsy slut.
    Be reminded that Chinese had emperors, nobles..until 1911 and polygamy still lingered on until 1949.

  463. @Godfree Roberts

    I just read the Credit Suisse report. Not that surprising. Things are changing rapidly. Fortune announced that this year in their Global 500 report – Chinese now has the most companies on the list. So there are plenty of non governmental sources that document the rapid rise of China. Only the conspiracy theorists still doubt.
    Even Peter Navarro was just outed for having fake sources in his book Death By China. And this is who Trump hired. One can only shake their head

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  464. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I thank you for the reference. However, it pisses me off to no end when a legendary story is applied to modern times in exact parallel, and related to us as the exact fact. This is bullshit at its finest, ignoring the real hardships, the struggle, the deaths and hard decisions and serious threats made to make people do things. There is no overnight transformation, unless mao happened upon enlightened but temporarily dispossessed wise men and women that somehow didn’t exist or live anywhere else but where mao happened to stagger upon.
    Or, of course, suddenly people got superhuman strength, forgot about self preservation and it’s all about collective efforts that somehow bore great success. I’ve read worse legends, but the CCPs’ really give them the run for their money.
    Would you like to hear glorious Japanese bullshit that may have been truth if we won? If we even cared to conquer China, as a strategic objective, we’d easily have been done much sooner, and guess what kind of stories would be employed? Yes, easily blending Confucianism for its statism, and the people would love us as much as they do the CCP, as we fed them crap like mushrooms in the basement.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  465. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    “Our” including China, of course. Then, it is a fair statement.
    Are you really devoid of any critical analytical capacity?
    Day in and day out with your articles are only sunshine and unicorns from CCP.
    I can read that stuff myself from China Daily, instead of here, and even they are more critical.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  466. @Half-Jap

    I don’t critically analyze Chinese politics because a thousand professionals do so in our media every day, while few do what I do.

    I would also observe that those thousand professionals have been completely wrong for 60 years. None of their predictions have come true, while all of mine have.

    That such a counterfactual narrative has been sustained for so long, and is still propagated and vigorously supported (as you see in our national policies and in these comments) is a tribute to the power of cognitive dissonance.

    Frankly, I boggle.

    As to your point about the Chinese state’s coercive measures, sure. Coercion, for better or worse, is one of the functions of states. I would argue that the PRC has maintained Mao’s record of doing more good for more people and less harm to fewer people than any state in history.

    • Agree: Ber, Iris, d dan, Vidi
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  467. @AaronB

    There is no ‘we’. You aren’t of the West. You’re as bad as David Spengler and Jonah Goldberg.

    Everyone here is opposed to the “”Jewish”” led West in which we reside. Which is leading to total political and economic collapse due to Jewish policies and preferences, opposed by general polities. It’s not ‘the Enlightenment’, primarily.

    It is nice to see that you support traditional gentile communities, but that is completely worthless if you refuse to cite the reason why they are no longer traditional.

    Here is another example, David Goldberg saying the US was a proposition nation founded to support Israel. Instead of, a Christian, Anglo-American nation formed on the basis of the Rights of Englishmen.

    “Israel is not only America’s key ally in a dodgy part of the world, but the cornerstone on which the edifice of the American republic was founded in the first place. In a July 2015 essay for the Jewish media, I asked, “Will Israel Save America?” The destiny of Americans — the “almost chosen people,” in Lincoln’s words — is bound up with the destiny of Israel.”

    These are the elites of the West – stating open retardation. Really? The American colony was founded for Israel? Centuries before it existed? It’s just insane. This is why China is rising and we are falling. We are ruled by imbeciles.

    We’ve already established you don’t know what the Enlightenment is. The Alt-Right is exactly ‘the’ reactionary rejection of the Enlightenment. Not merely ‘a’ version of it. It is the logical response. And you don’t support the Alt-Right. So you are a classic weasel.

    The core fact and virtue, perhaps the only one in my view, of China is that it is Chinese. It’s that simple. The Chinese government actually supports the Chinese nation overall. It’s clear to everyone here that Jewish led governments in the West are seeking to destroy, to eradicate and obliterate the actual racial nations of the West, just as fast as they can get away with it.

    All one has to do is listen to Nancy Pelosi and most senior Republicans to see who rules the United States, and what policies benefit who.

    But the future is neither Chinese nor Jewish imperialism.

    It is a Christian Nationalist West, comprised of the historical white nations of the West.

    The Jewish Enlightenment is going to fail, and is already in the process of failing.

    It’s quite suspicious to see Jews so wary of China now, when they were all supposed to be moving there. Also, when they have been arranging for the sale of US interests to China on record since at least Lyndon Johnson.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  468. Aaron should see this.

    It’s already started – Jews being arrested for defending themselves from assault from Nogs. Welcome to white reality Aaron. And now, no conservative can afford to care, thanks to Jews. Because Jews in New York have made it a crime now not to lie prone while Nogs and Mudslimes and Asias rape your wife and burn your house down. So enjoy, bon appetite. Delicious Jewish diversity and proposition served raw.

    Because an NYPD full of Nogs and Mexicas isn’t going to do a thing for white skin, even if it’s wearing a Yarmulke.

    As for Mr Godfree. Han Minzu Zhuyi isn’t of any use unless you are Han. Chinese will do exactly the same – if you get assaulted by some bugman in Sydney, in a Chinese neighbourhood – YOU are the one who will be arrested, for daring to defend yourself.

    It’s pure idiocy to white-wash Mao, and pretend that Bolshevism in China wasn’t fomented by Jews the same as Bolshevism in Russia.

    Mao, by Jung Chang, similar to the Robert Caro series on Lyndon Johnson, explodes this carefree Godfree hagiography of Mao.

    The book ignores the presence of the Jews in China, covered elsewhere. But reading this material on the ‘success’ of the cultural revolution, compared to the witness testimonies of those who experienced it, is pretty hilarious.

    If Godfree’s opinion is that you can’t make an omelette without cracking a few eggs, he clearly believes that he will be the cook, not the egg. As always, with anyone who says the deaths of a few million people are just a necessary byproduct of industrialisation.

    Yes, Mao, so brilliant, he declared war on pigeons, which led to decimation of farmland by insects and varmints.
    Yes, Mao, so brilliant, he had almost all the metal in China broiled in totally worthless pig-iron home-smelts which only led to the total destruction of heirlooms and domestic infrastructure.
    Yes, Mao Godfree, so brilliant, who treated his family like sub-humans, just like every other ofay ersatz intellectual who purports to love ‘humanity’ but who hates actual individual humans – he should have been in ‘Intellectuals’ by Paul Johnson.
    Mao, so brilliant, the most conservative estimate of casualties from his grain exports for weapons imports scheme was 38million.

    Chinese have thrived ‘in spite’ of Mao. And Deng Xiaoping’s reforms are the basis for China’s prosperity. Anyone who dismisses Deng Xiaoping’s influence on China’s economic status has pretty questionable judgement.

    Jewish and Chinese tyranny can both be damned. As can their respective idiot distortions.

    ‘America was founded for Israel’ says David Golberg.

    ‘Mao dindu nuffin’ says Godfree Roberts.

    Yes, China can produce lots of things. And they all want to live in Australia. That’s weird. Why would actual Chinese, like in Jung Chang’s book, not want to live in this Utopian China?

    The accomplishments’ of China deserve appreciation – but not at the expense of falsification of history and self-abasement.

    Eff social credit, Godfree, of both the Jewish proxy variety and the Chinese official variety.

    You will be the egg that goes in the omelette, not the omelette chef Godfree – unless you’re actually Han, which I presume you are not.

    How wonderful for you if you’d been one of the 38 million liquidated so that China could have some pig-iron and jet fuel.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  469. I find it repugnant that Godfree calls Mao ‘Confucian’ when his imbecile and monstrous cultural revolution actually destroyed almost all Confucian artifacts and architecture – according to Jung Chang.

    But why trust eye witnesses – China good, West bad.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Godfree Roberts
  470. Lin says:
    @Flint Clint

    destroyed almost all Confucian artifacts and architecture

    I’m not sure the % of Confucius artifacts and architecture destroyed. Most of the old wooden architectures all over the world were regularly burned down by fire and rebuilt. Why not take it as an archeological issue? The greatest artifacts are his sayings recorded by his students.
    Most importantly Confucism is NOT a religion. Confucius was a secular man and he asked his students to stay away from ‘deities’ and ‘spirits’. It’s also difficult to define what Confucism is. One can definitely criticize him while under his influence. The worst pseudo confucists are those who take his teachings as infallible or ‘divine’.
    A good example:In a bigger Chinese city, one can find a confucist temple(not sure if any Chinese city has 2) while a big US city has 100s of churches.
    As ancient Chinese record says, Confucius was a bastard.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  471. @Half-Jap

    Well hey truth is some Japanese military leaders did advise that it was lunacy to try to take all of mainlamd China. Japan took Taiwan and small islands in the East and South China sea. Then it took Manchuria. It thought it could keep taking more and more which was hubris. Japan expended too much man and material power in China and depleted itself. Same disease Hitler suffered from trying to take Russia. But gladly both Tojo and Hitler lost.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  472. @Flint Clint

    Do you know who Jung Chang is? Or why her books have been so widely praised by our media?

    Her father was a senior government officials and she was raised by a wet nurse with a nanny, maid, gardener and chauffeur in a walled compound, and educated in a special school for officials’ children.

    In her books she assumes that the Cultural Revolution’s peasant students are ‘semi-literate’ with ‘little aptitude’ for scholarship while she deserved the best.

    Horrified by a brief stint in the countryside, “Mao intended me to live the rest of my life as a peasant!” and years before her father was rehabilitated, she received a generous scholarship to study at a British university, still a distant dream for millions.

    Western reviewers shared her terror of being reduced, even briefly, to the level of ordinary people and universally greeted her books as personal accounts of great suffering though she clearly never came close to being a victim of a brutal regime.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @Half-Jap
    , @dfordoom
  473. @Lin

    Yeah Confucianism is definitely a philosophy and not a religion. But yeah Mao was definitely not Confucianist in my view. So while I disagree with Mr Roberts about Mao – he did make the good point that all revolutions are messy. But now the government realized they had to rwstore some Chinese to their brand of new social order. Hence the new tagline. Hopefully as China continues to develop it will hold closer to a modernized Confucianism like Singapore and NOT adopt western liberalism like Taiwan has (Hong Kong was British for a lomg time so I dont even count them). Deng was wise to seek counsel from Lee Kuan Yew. He even tried to get Lee to reconcile the mainland – but Chiang ignorex the overtures. But even in Singapore they sense the creep of liberalism. If you check the news this week they are reviving the “Speak Mandarin” campaign. They realize you are influenced most by the language you use most. Lee Kwan Yew always wanted Hong Kong to adopt western business mores while keeping Asian/Confucian social mores. The leaders in Singapore today are trying to carry that legacy. English has become too dominant in Singapore. They want to firmly maintain the duality. Though that makes Taiwan even more peculiar since they speak only Chinese (Mandarin and Hokkien) yet they have become very liberal.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  474. Half-Jap says:
    @Showmethereal

    True and untrue. For one thing, Tojo was only one amongst a series of leaders, and there never was a coherent strategy from mainland Japan. We even had a pro-Chinese leader, who was sabotaged and later hung together with Tojo, one of his political saboteurs, and legend has it that when the prisoners were to be put to death, they were cheering their “Banzai” but he shouted “Manzai” instead, which is Japanese for comedy. Yes, it really was a tragi-comedy for Kouki Hirota.
    The Manchurain affair was also a unilateral affair by the army in Korea, which the Emperor or govt couldn’t criticize or contain, due also to internal instability and the popular support to take rich lands during the warm period back then (yay democracy). We had the Last Emperor Pu Yi, giving us cover for Manchuria. We’d still have it around if the Japanese leadership weren’t stubborn dolts, but that is another story.
    The war with mainland China, which was not the CCP, but the nationalists of the RoC, was a huge mistake, and many of our scholars consider the Marco Polo bridge incident to now be at the instigation by the communists, to get us and the RoC to clash, which we did. Ironic that Japan had powerful and rich supporters for RoC and did not wish any conflict, including the alleged war criminal presiding over the alleged Rape of Nanking, Gen. Iwane Matsui, who personally funded Sun Yat Sen among others, and even built a buddha statue for peace in asia.
    Ah, details. But of course we are so pure evil.

    • Disagree: d dan, Vidi
    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  475. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Do you know who Iris Chang is? Or why her book has been so widely praised by our media?
    Yeah, and other sources are just as strong about establishing what has allegedly happened.
    It used to serve a great purpose, but the west has dropped it as we are their dog now. the CCP will exploit the RoC propaganda as long as it serves.

  476. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Yeah, so such silly tale makes alright and light of all of the forced relocation, re-education, and the starvation and violence wrought to the other unfortunates, eh?
    I am sure it is a great reward to live with PTSD from such wonderful experience.

  477. Half-Jap says:
    @Showmethereal

    An interesting mix, and perhaps viable.
    Strange that Dr. G. Roberts seem to imply that all this just sprung out of the virtuous bleatings of Mao, which no middle aged or young person of any import would recognize as a contributor to modern China.

  478. @Half-Jap

    People who make excuses for Japan’s imperialism and attempt at Asian domination are worse than Mao supporters. Next you will try to justify Unit 731 as having some authentic scientific value so it was ok to butcher people…. This is why “democratic and westernized” South Korea can’t reconcile with Japan yet. Too many excuses for atrocities.
    If Japan had received the punishment for her crimes that Germany did – her relationship with South Korea and China would be much better. Nazis are still hunted down TODAY. Even now there is a trial going on (may be done right now). Meanwhile the overwhelming majority of Japanese war criminals walked… And Japan didnt have to pay reaparations like Germany did (where did all the loot go taken from Northeast China and South Korea…???). This is why more Japanese make excuses – than Germans do. Only extreme Nazis still try to play down German atrocities and make excuses for them. Japan is a different story. Sadly you are not unique in trying to soften up that ugly history. Cant really blame Japan either. She wasnt the appointex party to administer justice. Because the communists in China got the upper hand – Japan had her sins washed away from public conscious to make her the “good Asian” in order to try to encircle China. Only the Dalai Lama got as good a public relations makeover.

    I digress… Point is that you shouldn’t even mention Mao or complain about Mr Roberts taking a soft tone with him while trying to soften Imperial Japans image.

  479. Half-Jap says:

    Go ahead, prove it by preponderance of evidence of Japan’s alleged crimes, not even beyond reasonable doubt. That medical unit I do not deny or defend, and ignorant people like you always bring it out as proof of all other allegations. I generally don’t care as it doesn’t matter much now.
    Only your propaganda that you call education makes you believe in magical killing machines that help you feel better about how amazingly strong and proud Korean people were as part of Japan, while Japan did damage to the Chinese hinterlands, though less so than the Nationalists under Chiang.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  480. Half-Jap says:
    @Half-Jap

    not “better” but substitute it as “guilty” but then who cares, eh? Angry people will be so.

  481. @Godfree Roberts

    Coercion, for better or worse, is one of the functions of states.

    THANK YOU! With that succinct piece of stupidity, you’ve just illustrated the true nature of the mind of a Communist, on display here for all the readers.

    Some few lucky people in the world, mostly in the West, with the majority in what used to be the Constitutional Republic of the US, remember what freedom meant. The rest of you wouldn’t know it if it came up and bit you on the ass. I hope your chains weigh heavily on you.

    Go ahead, Godfree. Go telling your stories of Chairman Mao. You ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Erebus
    , @Biff
  482. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Flint Clint

    But the future is neither Chinese nor Jewish imperialism.

    It is a Christian Nationalist West, comprised of the historical white nations of the West.

    A nice daydream. The problem is that the remnant of Christianity has become more of a destructive force than a positive force. And nationalism remains a fringe ideology. And the historical white nations of the West are motivated purely by greed and virtue-signalling. A Christian Nationalist West seems very very unlikely.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  483. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Flint Clint

    and pretend that Bolshevism in China wasn’t fomented by Jews the same as Bolshevism in Russia.

    So it was the Jews who were responsible for the Chinese Revolution? You’re serious, aren’t you? You believe this.

    Maybe in future we should refer to (((Mao Zedong))).

  484. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Godfree Roberts

    Horrified by a brief stint in the countryside, “Mao intended me to live the rest of my life as a peasant!”

    You know what my dream is? A world in which all intellectuals have to live the rest of their lives as peasants.

  485. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Coercion, for better or worse, is one of the functions of states.

    THANK YOU! With that succinct piece of stupidity, you’ve just illustrated the true nature of the mind of a Communist, on display here for all the readers.

    So explain to me exactly how you can have a functional state without some degree of coercion? If you have a police force (or a sheriff or whatever) you have some degree of coercion. Do you think that back in the pioneer days there were no laws or that obeying the law was optional?

    In the real world there’s always some degree of coercion. That’s the difference between civilisation and barbarism. So what matters is how much coercion you want, how honestly it is implemented, and whether the benefits outweigh the costs.

    If you’re trying to transform one of the poorest and most backward nations on Earth, as China was in 1949, into a strong nation state capable of surviving in the modern world, you’re not going to be able to do that without some coercion. That’s assuming you live in reality.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  486. Erebus says:
    @dfordoom

    Coercion, for better or worse, is one of the functions of states.

    THANK YOU! With that succinct piece of stupidity, you’ve just illustrated the true nature of the mind of a Communist, on display here for all the readers.

    And with that succinct piece of stupidity, you’ve just illustrated the certainty of mind available only to ideologues and madmen.

  487. @John Arthur

    I don’t think your updated views about growth and size of economies are entirely well founded. Obviously the time period over which you make the judgment matters and a smaller more specialised economy is liable to run into *relatively* big problems which it may or may not recover well from depending on what might broadly be called cultural factors. Cp. Australia and Argentina, two of the richest countries per capita c.1880-1910 with entirely different levels of resilience. As to size Brazil and Russia (even more the USSR) disappoint. Norway is the richest country in the world per capita and, to include another country with a potentially worrying dependemce on natural resources, namely, Australia, the latter has, depending on exchange rate, been close to the richeat country per capita ove much of the last ten years.

    If I may offer my own general observations I see that Australia has been rated down with Senegal and Uganda for lack of complexity in its economy by some Harvard academics. Bypassing the criticism of that study and its methodology (and the consequential headlines about a dumber country) it does of coursr draw attention to the possible consequences of having an economy dependent heavily on one major customer (China) which will presumably pay lower prices for commodities when it has Russia and Africa geared up for supply. It is unlikely too that the huge presnce of fee paying Chinese students in Australi would be quickly matched by Indians. Clearly Australia has to develop diversified skills against a likely change in the balance of exports. Equally it should be providing a fiscal cushion not needed or practicable for a very large economy by way of a soveeign fund or funds – of which Norway’s is the most notable.

    As to China itself, it is possible to see it as having learned from its own, and others’, disastrous mistakes and taken full advantage of that (including a cavalier attitude to IP like 19th century America). The crunch will come when reformers want to change the CCP’s way of doing things for which there will be no compelling foreign precedents. That struggle could last ftom 2050 to 2150 without China being reduced to a feckless Argentina. America will be in a lot more trouble as it copes – just to name its biggest fiscal problem – with unsustainable promises of social security and other welfare.

  488. @Godfree Roberts

    You might consider whatcis migh be learned from this

    How a social network could save democracy from deadlock – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50127713

    That is about Taiwan

    As you know I am not really sold on China’s 2500 years of continuous civilisation which your broad brush covers and it is not obvious that Confucius, any more than Buddha, Jesus or Mahomet provides much more than familiar rhetoric to provide guidance in 2019. Real wisdom might allow President Xi to learn from the Taiwanese experimental way of doing Chinese things differently.

    I do not BTW resile at all from the logic of saying that a conformist consensus created amongst a population that is not fully at liberty to learn about and explore different ways and its own history cannot claim to be meritorious *on the basis of widespread support* whatever objective merits might be clsimed for it.

  489. @Wizard of Oz

    You are showing great ignorance. There is NOTHING innovative about what Taiwan is doing in that BBC article. Mainland China conducts on and offline policy surveys to conduct critique of almost all policy. That social network in Taiwan is behind the mainland. But if you rely on biased media like the BBC you wouldnt know. Fact is the best and brightest on Taiwan have been moving to the mainland in increasing numbers over the past decade (whereas before it used to be just investors and factory owners). When the psychos invaded the legislature the trend accelerated. In fact the Sunflower Movement got mocked because a fair number of those young and foolish protesters themselves had to go seek work in Mainland China. No wonder that President Tsai supports what is going on in Hong Kong. The foolish Sunflower protests got her elected. But it hasnt improved a thing in Taiwan. In some ways they have regressed. Same with Hong Kong. Meanwhile the puppet masters are scratching their head on what to try next to destabilize China.

    • Agree: d dan
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  490. @Wizard of Oz

    “The crunch will come when reformers want to change the CCP’s way of doing things for which there will be no compelling foreign precedents.??

    Reformers changed the CCP’s way of doing things in 1950 (land reform), in 1951 (universal suffrage), in 1959 (Great Leap Forward), in 1961 (Cultural Revolution), in 1980 (Capitalism), and will change it again in 2021 (equality).

    All of those were major changes, several were unique to China, none reduced China to a feckless Argentina.

    Would you like something to reduce China to a feckless Argentina?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  491. @Wizard of Oz

    Taiwan is a client state of the USA run by a corrupt comprador class. It is culturally and economically stagnant.

    What is attractive about such a model?

    Why would China need to follow its Westernized model when it gets results like these:

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  492. @Showmethereal

    I didn’t say “innovative” though, quite literally, as something new in Taiwan’s democracy, it is exactly that. My point was difference as in perhaps “Let a thousand flowers bloom” which unfortunately has a tainted record of bad faith in CCP’s China. Why shouldn’t a confident great power like China regard it as positive to have regions experimenting right up to and including the Taiwanese experiment? Is there any reason why China shoild seek to incorprate Taiwan and even threaten to take it by force apart from sadly confirming that, despite its coming dominance it means to play the great power game where, in the end, might is right? When I say “is there any reason” I am asking a utilitarian questiin about something truly likely to increase the sum of human happiness which does not include a dogmatic “CCP knows best” answer.

    I’m not sure what you think any of the rest proves though it does cause me to ask Godfree Roberts about why he calls Taiwan (not Hong Kong this time at least) “a client state of the USA run by a corrupt comprador class. It is culturally and economically stagnant.”

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  493. @Godfree Roberts

    Taiwan, despite economically damaging pressure from China is still considerably richer I believe and, despite all the movement between China and Taiwan to allow comparisons to be made, votes in a way which indicates that the attractions of CCP rule are far from capturing the Taiwanese voter. (You seem to think your charts showing approval of CCP government mean something so perhaps you will allow ignorant Taiwanese voters to have a say too).

    China, objectively, has no security need which demands any different status for Taiwan than now exists so what, in a utilitarian sense, is the justification for China, totally impregnable with its 1.3 billion talented people, insisting on reunification, by force if necessary? It is really unbecoming the dignity of the Middle Kingdom. Why not give it a referendum on nationhood as for Scotland? I can discern, if faintly, a desire to avoid appearing to set a precedent which might create difficulties in Tibet and Xinjiang, for example until their native populations are swamped by Han (manifest destiny of course except that modern people have contraception now). But…. why does China have to continue falsifying history? Again, is it consistent with its status of Middle Kingdom revived?

    I suppose it really should be the preliminary question to ask you about your statement
    “Taiwan is a client state of the USA run by a corrupt comprador class. It is culturally and economically stagnant. ”
    There’s a hell of a lot to unpack there but if you can justify that would you care to cite facts and figures which justify that surprising claim about a country and economy which has big investments in China and clearly doesn’t have the bought and paid for two sides of the same coin politics as the US?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  494. @Godfree Roberts

    I don’t know how you can misread me. I say that China can probably maintain its great forward momentum for a very long time bur, eventually, precisely because it is the most prosperous and most powerful country again it will have disputes within a now highly educated and self confident population about values and priorities for which it won’t help much to look to precedents elsewhere or to the Philosophy or Political Science Departments of great Western universities. I do not, if you read what I said, anticipate catastrophic problems – no Argentina thank G. (I think you would find in Claudio Véliz’s “The Centralist Tradition of Latin Americz” some of his shrewd observations about why the Anglo culture succeeded for hundreds of years after the late 16th16th century and the Hispanic/Latin did not. I’m afraid that, at 89 it is perhaps too late for him to make equally eell informed observations about the path of the coming Han supremacy).

    I am truly astonished at your examoles of “reform” of which the two which originated in China were disastrous, the others, in conceptiin, good old stuff for modern society.

    Do I detect a touch of quasi religious faith in your belief that all will be well? Or maybe just Dr Pangloss. As it happens I am optimistic about the rise of and future of China. Of course Australia hss got some interesting wriggling to do. I think my hopes are for a short term dance with our American ally but with one precedent in mind. Australia was one of the more significant members of the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq but managed to extricate itsrlf with only one soldier dead. He accidentally shot himsrlf in his bunkroom.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  495. @Wizard of Oz

    I agree with your points, but I believe that the powers of scale allow for more economic complexity and allow for more reduced costs for big businesses. American companies have incredible scale at home because the American economy is so big and the population so vast, same with China.
    Speaking to your point about China and Argentina, I somewhat disagree. China will continue reforming its economy and liberalizing it like the Washington concensus says. The original reforms allowed it to grow so fast after all.
    I think we need to place things in perspective though:
    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?end=2018&locations=CN-JP-US-GB-FR-KR-DE-CL-PL-HU&most_recent_value_desc=false&start=1990
    While China has converged in absolute terms with other developing countries and some developed countries, it has actually *diverged* with the most capitalistic and westernized economy of them all: the United States. The average American is richer than the average Chinese today than they were back in 1990!.
    So China has a lot of room to keep on reforming like the Western model would allow for. No need for Argentina anytime soon.
    People have been talking about the Credit Suisse model upthread, but fail to mention that the same paper showcases that US’s Net Wealth is almost twice that of China’s, and US Net Wealth(referred to Total Wealth in the paper) actually grew *faster* than China in absolute and percentage terms. In fact, I mentioned it in my comments upthread.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Showmethereal
  496. @Wizard of Oz

    so what, in a utilitarian sense, is the justification for China, totally impregnable with its 1.3 billion talented people, insisting on reunification, by force if necessary?

    Think of Taiwan as a giant, unsinkable aircraft carrier and you see why insisting on reunification, by force if necessary, is important.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  497. @Wizard of Oz

    “precisely because it is the most prosperous and most powerful country again it will have disputes within a now highly educated and self confident population about values and priorities for which it won’t help much to look to precedents elsewhere.” All countries in all times have had disputes within their populations, as has China. But its civilization has survived intact for so long precisely because everyone agree on its values and priorities 2200 years ago and are busily trying to incarnate them.

    “I am truly astonished at your examples of “reform” of which the two which originated in China were disastrous..” I maintain that the disaster of the Great Leap was exogenous and was deliberately exacerbated by the USA, and that the Cultural Revolution was the only successful social revolution of the 1960s, of far great moment and at far lower cost, than the French Revolution.

    GREAT LEAP http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/

    CULTURAL REVOLUION: http://www.unz.com/article/the-great-proletarian-cultural-revolution/

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  498. @Godfree Roberts

    Indeed, if you look at Taiwan that way I suppose you can make a good case because China may be effectively impregnable but it makes sense to guard against even low probability madness in others. It is consistent with that view that it requires attentiom but no rush to achieve takeover.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  499. Vidi says:
    @John Arthur

    While China has converged in absolute terms with other developing countries and some developed countries, it has actually *diverged* with the most capitalistic and westernized economy of them all: the United States. The average American is richer than the average Chinese today than they were back in 1990!.

    Not according to the World Bank (link). Per capita GDP (in PPP terms, converted to “current international $”, presumably to 2018 USD):

    China: 1990=$988 2018=$18,210
    USA: 1990=$23,888 2018=$62,641

    Thus in 1990, the average American was 24.2 times richer than the average Chinese; in 2018, the ratio had shrunk to 3.4 times. China has been catching up to the U.S. — very rapidly — not falling behind.

    China will continue reforming its economy and liberalizing it like the Washington concensus says.

    Why would China want to slow down to the American level?

    • Agree: Showmethereal
  500. Erebus says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    … it makes sense to guard against even low probability madness in others.

    Yes, but the probability in this case is actually quite high.

    Furthermore, that it hasn’t definitively disavowed Chiang’s claim to be the only legitimate govt of all China makes it all too vulnerable to manipulation by foreign powers.