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Democracy has only existed for about 200 years. It started with the American Declaration of Independence. The Americans got their ideas from the Europeans, mostly from the French, the Dutch and the British. But democracy has a number of serious failures. For instance, you have to be elected every four years and you have to be re-elected the next four years. So you try to tell the people what they would like to hear. The multi-party system is not the crown of progress, but it is the best we have right now. I would fight for maintaining it, but I would not sell it to the Chinese.

Helmut Schmidt, Chancellor, Federal Republic of Germany.

In 2005, Germany transferred her high speed rail technology to China. Today, China’s HSR is bigger, faster, safer and cheaper than Germany’s, runs entirely on Chinese intellectual property and Chinese trains are displacing Germany’s in the world market.

Coincidentally, in 2005, The Carter Center began transferringAmerica’s democracy knowhow to China. Today, China’s democracy is bigger, faster, safer and cheaper than ours and runs entirely on Chinese intellectual property. There’s a potentially huge market for an improved version. Might Chinese democracy displace America’s? Should we be surprised if the Chinese model becomes competitive? For three thousand years no subject has preoccupied their elite more than governance. From their perspective, Deng’s 1977 comment about Western democracy, “It’s too soon to tell,” was simple common sense.

Barely forty years later, perhaps we can tell. Only twenty percent of citizens in newly-democratic Hungary, Czech Republic, Romania, Latvia, Poland and Bulgaria, trust their governments. Even fewer Britons trust Parliament and less than ten percent of us trust Congress. Western democracy is losing legitimacy because governments’ agenda have remained at odds with their citizens’ agenda for decades but, as Margaret Thatcher would have said, there was no alternative.

ChinaTrust

Now there is an alternative and, if we compare American democracy to China’s on seven axes–constitutional, elective, popular, procedural, operational, substantive and financial–we can at least begin the conversation.

Constitutionally, China’s constitution stipulates, “The State organs of the People’s Republic of China apply the principle of democratic centralism. The National People’s Congress and the local people’s congresses at various levels are constituted through democratic elections. They are responsible to the people and subject to their supervision. All administrative, judicial and procuratorial organs of the State are created by the people’s congresses to which they are responsible and by which they are supervised”. America’s founders carefully omitted the word ‘democracy’ from all Constitutional documents. For at least paying lip service to democracy, we must award a point to China.

Electively, China’s bigger, more transparent elections were designed and supervised by The Carter Centerwhich continues to expand the franchise at the behest of Premier Wen Jiabao, who told them in 2012, “The experience of many villages shows farmers can succeed in directly electing village committees. If people can manage a village well they can manage a township and a county. We must encourage people to experiment boldly and test democracy in practice”. Today, 3,200 democratically elected Congressional representatives must vote, almost unanimously, to approve all senior appointments and all legislation. In the U.S., wealthy, unelected people propose and fund candidates for election. An unelected Electoral College chooses the chief executive. China 2–USA 0.

Popularly, the Chinese, who still bear scars of recent governance mistakes, will tell you that it was when Mao, Deng and the Qing Emperor ignored experts that they got the country into trouble. Today, Chinese democracy resembles Proctor and Gamble more than Pericles. There are more than a thousand polling firms in China and its government spends prolifically on surveys, as authorJeff J. Brownsays, “My Beijing neighborhood committee and town hall are constantly putting up announcements, inviting groups of people–renters, homeowners, over seventies, women under forty, those with or without medical insurance, retirees–to answer surveys. The CPC is the world’s biggest pollster for a reason: China’s democratic ‘dictatorship of the people’ is highly engaged at the day-to-day, citizen-on-the-street level. I know, because I live in a middle class Chinese community and I question them all the time. I find their government much more responsive and democratic than the dog-and-pony shows back home, and I mean that seriously”. Even the imperious Mao would remind colleagues, “If we don’t investigate public opinion we have no right to voice our own opinion. Public opinion is our guideline for action,” which is why Five Year Plans are the results of intensive polling. Citizens’ sixty-two percent voter participation suggests that they think their votes count. Princeton’s Gilens and Page, on the other hand, examining the causes of Americans’ fifty-two percent voter participation, found ‘the preferences of the average American appear to have a near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy’. China 3–USA 0.

ChinaSatisfaction

Procedurally, The Chinese engineers, economists, statisticians and sociologists who develop policies practice democracy among themselves and the top seven decision makers–appointed independently of each other and with a collective 200 years governing experience–require at least six votes to send legislation to Congress. If President Xi claimed that global warming is a hoax he would be regarded as autocratic, not democratic. If he wants a new climate policy and persuades five colleagues to support it, he can push it into the trials pipeline but, without solid trial data, he can’t propose legislation and the popularly elected, unpaid congress has proven willing to delay leaders’ pet projects for decades. Data-driven democracy has steadily narrowed the gap between public expectations and government capacity, which is why Chinese support for government policies stands at 96 percent, higher than evenSwitzerland’s or Singapore’s and far higher than our twenty percent. China 4–USA 0.

Operationally, American presidents resemble the medieval monarchs upon whom their office was modeled, as Abraham Lincoln’s Secretary of State, William Henry Seward, observed, “We elect a king for four years and give him absolute power within certain limits which, after all, he can interpret for himself”. Our presidents hire and fire all senior officials, secretly ban fifty thousand citizens from flying, order people kidnapped, tortured, imprisoned and assassinated and take the country to war. No Chinese leader, not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things. The president cannot even choose his prime minister (always his strongest rival for the presidency), can only make decisions with 6–1 or 7–0 support from colleagues and can’t hire or fire officials, elect, assign or suspend members of Congress.

President Obama’s healthcare initiative relied on his popularity and promises whereas, as Stanford VC Robin Daverman explains, China’s initiatives rely on math: “China is a giant trial portfolio with millions of trials going on everywhere. Today, innovations in everything from healthcare to poverty reduction, education, energy, trade and transportation are being trialled in different communities. Every one of China’s 662 cities is experimenting: Shanghai with free trade zones, Guizhou with poverty reduction, twenty-three cities with education reforms, Northeastern provinces with SOE reform: pilot schools, pilot cities, pilot hospitals, pilot markets, pilot everything. Mayors and governors, the Primary Investigators, share their ‘lab results’ at the Central Party School and publish them in ‘scientific journals,’ the State-owned newspapers. Major policies undergo ‘clinical trials,’ beginning in small towns that generate and analyze test data. If the stats look good, they’ll add test sites and do long-term follow-ups. They test and tweak for 10-30 years then ask the 3,000-member People’s Congress to review the data and authorize national trials in three major provinces. If a national trial is successful the State Council [China’s Brains Trust] polishes the plan and takes it back to the 3,000 Congresspeople for a final vote. It’s very transparent and, if you have good data and I don’t, your bill gets passed and mine doesn’t. People’s Congress votes are nearly unanimous because the legislation is backed by reams of data. This allows China to accomplish a great deal in a short time: your winning solution will be quickly propagated throughout the country, you’ll be a front page hero and you’ll be invited to high-level meetings in Beijing and promoted. As you can imagine, the competition to find solutions is intense”. Operationally, data-driven legislation wins hands down. China 5–USA 0.

Substantively, China has won her battle for survival and is now militarily and economically impregnable, so authoritarian giants like Mao and Deng are no longer needed. Today, researchers, experts, media, academics, stakeholders and obstreperous citizens set the agenda. Since 2000, China has allowed foreigners to conduct surveys and publish apolitical results without submitting their questionnaires and Harvard’s Tony Saich, who’s been polling there for over a decade reports, inGoverning China, that ninety-six per cent of Chinese are satisfied with their national government and, according to Edelman’s 2016 Report, almost ninety percent of Chinese trust it. World Values Surveys found that eighty-three percent say China is run for their benefit rather than for the benefit of special groups–compared to thirty-eight percent of Americans. China 6–USA 0.

Financially (we exclude financial democracy from polite conversation but the Chinese don’t), ninety-five percent of poor Chinese own their homes and land and the Chinese own, in common, the commanding heights of their economy– banks, insurers and utilities. And Inequality is being effectively addressed. In its 2017 study, Global Inequality Dynamics, America’s National Bureau of Economic Research reports that, though the bottom half of Chinese saw their share of national income fall from twenty-seven percent to fifteen percent after 1980, Americans’ share collapsed from twenty percent to twelve percent. Simultaneously, China’s top one percent captured thirteen percent of all personal income, but America’s elite grabbed twenty percent. Since those figures were compiled, China has eliminated urban poverty and, the World Bank adds, “We can reasonably expect the virtual elimination of extreme poverty in [rural] China by 2022”. Every Chinese–not just the poor–has doubled her income every ten years for the past 40 years, an extraordinary improvement in income mobility and the inverse of our experience. In the U.S., says Stanford’s Raj Chetty, “rates of absolute mobility have fallen from approximately 90% for children born in 1940 to 50% for children born in the 1980s. Absolute income mobility has fallen across the entire income distribution, with the largest declines for families in the middle class”. China 7–USA 0.

Whether or not we’re willing to call China’s 20th century system democratic, it’s clear that they’ve improved on our quaint, eighteenth century model. How long before they start selling the new, improved version?

From CHINA 2020: Everything You Know is Wrong. Forthcoming.

* * *

 
• Category: Foreign Policy, Ideology • Tags: China, China/America, Democracy 
The China/America Series
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  1. DB Cooper says:

    “How long before they start selling the new, improved version?”

    I am sure China couldn’t care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don’t have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I am sure China couldn’t care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don’t have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.
     
    Agree and disagree. For the most part, the CCP really doesn't seem to largely care if others wish to adopt it - but that said, bits and parts of it are being adopted by various governments because it seems to work and China hasn't been opposed to supporting formulation to advise governments(some African governments come to mind) which wish to mimic it further although always with the caveats that government is always going to be different with different people. In that sense, it does feel a bit like Confucianism or past Sinoculture exports; not a great effort to evangelize, but it does seem to spread somehow.

    If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.
     
    The main issue is incentives. The spoils system in "liberal democracy" creates an ultimately unsustainable system where basically everyone seeks to vote themselves to get the most goodies, and is obviously going to lead to massive debts. "Chinese democracy" has a different spoils system where Party functionaries try to represent themselves as successful, verdict is still out whether it works that much better but it has a different dynamic.

    For example, in the US, you might have black students feel that they are discriminated against and agitate for more representation or resources. In China, if Muslim students felt discriminated against and complained enough that it was noticed by the panopticon, a Party member responsible for the university might argue with others in a meeting to give them more halal foods, prayer rooms, etc. If it all works out, and the happy Muslims now provide greater value, the Party member gets rewarded in the future.

    It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how this can go wrong(every province competes against each other in a hostile manner), but it does divorce the spoils system one step away from the mass beneficiaries, hopefully being a moderating effect.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen’s three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people.
     

    One cannot deny that Sun Yat's China has been accomplished by the Communist Party: the rails, the ports, and industry. At the end of his life, he did say that the future of China was tied with the future of the CCP. For better or worse, he knew the reality of things to come.

    If he is the nominal Father of China, the CCP has been dutiful and has fulfilled his demands.


    I doubt that they ask “informed public” in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question.
     
    Depends on what you mean. They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn't an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo.

    There's a range of political views and an Overton Window in China as well, for what it is worth. Complaining about the government is a pastime, not too different from here.


    83% feel the government is run for their benefit. 92% of the population is Han. Probably not a coincidence.
     
    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.

    The sense that anyone can prove himself through virtue is a hallmark of this thinking.

    What you can't be is Dr. Daniel A Bell, a white resident of China who constantly demands that China increase gay rights, female participation in government, etc and then complains about being excluded even though he wears Confucian garb. Ah, well, you see, trying to pozz a culture isn't eagerly welcomed. He's probably being treated nicer than if he was born Han.

    And yet in typical Confucian deference, despite how annoying he is, they still let him do what he wants and give him respect because he is a Tsinghua professor. That's supposed to mean something. Unfortunately, you can see how this can be a vector for pozz.

    , @jilles dykstra
    The west, controlled by the USA, tries to impose what the USA sees as democracy, anywhere, in order to control the whole world.
    I like Trump for openly acknowledging that that the USA was unable to install a puppet regime in Afghanistan, and now will openly use any brutal force the USA thinks is necessary.
    , @Joe Wong
    “The New Chinese World Order” produced by VPRO documentary has the following comparative analysis about the Western(Christian based) civilization and Chinese (Confucianism based) civilization.

    There’s a difference between Christianity and Confucianism. Christianity has a mission. It’s always trying to convert non-believers into Christians. People with other habits should take on the Christian ones. In China we do the opposite. Why do we say that America strives for supremacy? Because it imposes its will. American exports its own range of ideas. For example: they liberate Libya, they liberate Iraq... because they disagree with those governments. We liberate you so you can be just like us. Confucianism says that is totally wrong. Its says: You may learn from me, but I won’t force you. If you want to learn from me, I’ll teach you. If not, I’m not going to come after you. I won’t send an army to change you. Supremacy means forcing your ideas onto others. The classical Chinese model tells you to accept others as they are. That’s the difference. The US want to make other countries just like the US.

    Europeans including their offshoots are vindictive. That’s the main difference with Asians. Confucianism doesn’t allow revenge. Such vengeful feelings are very rare in Chinese culture. Many European plays, like Shakespeare’s, are about revenge. European novels are often about revenge. Like The Count of Monte Cristo. Revenge is a natural thing ... but in Chinese culture you’re taught to repress that feeling. So if there’s anything that Europe can learn from China... it’s to let go of their strong culture of vindictiveness.

    It seems there is no difference in substance between the Christianity and Islam, the only difference between Christianity and Islam is superficial terms and rituals.
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  2. DB Cooper says:

    I read somewhere that to be a Chinese Communist party member at the very least you have to be at a certain top percentage in your class. So Sarah Palin type will never happen in China.

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    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    So much the worse for the Chinese.
    , @Erebus
    I have no idea of "certain top percentage(s)" and Communist Party membership, but I can tell you that the nice young man that worked with me when I first started in China graduated from a 2nd tier Univ with a BA in English Lit (placing 4th in class), and minor in Int'l Commercial Law, and failed the Civil Service exam 3x. Memory fails me, but I seem to recall he may been have shooting for the Foreign Service, which sets a higher bar than the domestic version, but his failure is indicative of the standards candidates are expected to meet.
    Anyhow, the Civil Service is a prestige job in China that attracts talented people, so the govt can afford to be picky and they take full advantage of it. Where I come from, the Civil Service apparently serves primarily as a social safety net for a rabble that lacked the wit to collect enough rags, hooch and cardboard to make a go of sleeping in parks.
    The "international community" had no idea what they unleashed when they welcomed China into the international system. I'm not sure they get it now, or that they ever will, but one day they'll wake up to find China running it and wonder how it came to be so.
    , @godfree Roberts
    A million graduates take the Government Service exam, guokuo, each year. The pass rate is .03%.

    No wonder Kissinger said 'the Chinese are smarter than us': he'd only met the .03%!
    , @Joe Wong

    to be a Chinese Communist party member at the very least you have to be at a certain top percentage in your class.
     
    this is one of many fake news the American or those die hard cold war ideology warriors has manufactured without blinking an eye; it is just like the 100 millions of Chinese starved to death during the Great leap Forward, mind you China only had around 400 million during that time, the tanks crashed the students in the Tienanmen Square Massacre or Sadden Hussein has Weapon of Mass Destruction.

    One thing the CCP scares the most is it is hijacked by a special interest group and detached from the masses, particular its root, the peasants and workers. "a certain top percentage in your class" is a quickest way to form a special interest group and repeat the steps of all previous failed dynasties. Smart people get corrupted easiest and fastest, USA is such an example, an negative example on how not to trust smart people completely.

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  3. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I predict this article to trigger many people at Unz.

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  4. Realist says:

    Our democracy isn’t even 100 years old and it has failed miserably. Democracy is the most corrupt form of government. If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.

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    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    There is no corruption in the US because corruption has been institutionalized called lobbying. Lobbying, either by domestic groups or foreign entities/governments is probably a unique American feature among the democracies in the world.
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  5. Now, suppose that you would run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I mean, really, by comparing with USA, as we have become, sets a very low bar, does it not? Or compare the DPRK with the ROK?

    A problem in the methodology is that the government of the PRC may often be a reason why other nations do not have any chance to score well against China. E.g., I believe that the New China (PRC) took over the old China lobby after Kissinger’s trip to Beijing in 1971. Now, about half a century later, agents of the PRC undoubtedly control “our” neocons. Of course, China has to share that control/influence with Isreali/Zionist lobby. In any case, our problem with bribery in renminbi is really entirely our problem. China has their corruption problem, that’s for sure. And we have our corruption problem … and that is our problem, not theirs

    It’s like this: we (US) is like the Chinese Empire was in its decline and fall. Corruption is everywhere, and it’s all for sale. We know that, but then we excuse it as “globalism” … which is necessary or even “good” or anyway it’s too late to turn it around.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen’s three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people. (Note that it isn’t “globalism, democracy, etc.”!) According to Wikipedia: Sun Yat-sen believed that the economic livelihood of the people depended on adopting the teachings of the American economist Henry George, writing that “The teachings of your single-taxer, Henry George, will be the basis of our program of reform.” It’s reported that Taiwan today has a single-tax land tax as the basis of its system of taxation. Many believe that that is the only way to prevent cyclic real estate crashes, and it’s interesting that the PRC (mainland China) has experienced real estate bubbles and crashes, although the worst aspects of the crashes may have been avoided by government banking interventions.

    The problem with all of this is: what about Hong Kong? I have it from Chinese people in this country (USA) that there is at this time no chance of actual effective reunification of Taiwan into the PRC for just one reason: the experience of the freedom-loving people of Hong Kong. So, the people of Taiwan look at Hong Kong and see that Beijing could never be trusted to keep its word in regards to honoring the now-traditional ways of democracy that have developed in Taiwan (at heavy cost to freedom-loving Chinese over the years). Carter Center and all, I wonder about these polls and how accurate they really are. True, I don’t live in China and never have …. but what I hear is nobody trusts the elite. The “Edelman Trust barometer”? I doubt that they ask “informed public” in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question. But maybe I’m wrong about that. As an octogenarian, I certainly do remember many years when the American people trusted their government over 90%, for sure – except probably for African-Americans or, as they were known back then, “colored people.” And that brings us to one final quibble: did Edelman do their survey throughout all of China, like in Tibet?

    For sure, we are now enduring our cultural revolution much more than we did even in the hay days of the 60s. And, for sure, we are, in many ways, at our nadir. But who knows? Maybe we have a long ways to fall yet.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    Now, suppose that you would run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)!
     
    by this statement I take it you have some thoughts on the matter? care to share it? or was it all just hot air?
    , @Joe Wong
    You should know God creates human beings with a cautious mind by limiting how long they can live, so the old rotten and diehard ones can die off and let the new ones have a chance to grow and rejuvenate the species.

    People with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by the zero-sum cold war mentality are definitely belonging to those old rotten and diehard ones that need to die off, so they won't drag us in the dark age of old days of colonialism and zero-sum cold war with endless fake news and wars forever.

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  6. I am pretty outdated on China, but I think the author is idealizing. Regarding USA it has never been democracy. It is republic which I’d different.the whole democracy thing is just a wool continuously pulled to keep people preoccupied. Democratic government heeds and cares for majority and I n this regard USA government is not democracy. On the other hand Soviet government was democratic. Elections mean nothing. I guess in this regard China is also more democratic than USA. However, long term I am not optimistic about China future mostly due to population size and resources ecology limits.

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    • Replies: @Китайский дурак
    Tom Friedman of New York Times beat this ridiculous author by several years in terms of becoming an obsequious fan of China . Oh yes way over-the-top in idealizing .
    , @Realist
    " It is republic which I’d different.the whole democracy thing is just a wool continuously pulled to keep people preoccupied. Democratic government heeds and cares for majority and I n this regard USA government is not democracy."

    There is no functional difference between a democracy and a republic. Our democracy/republic failed decades ago and we now live in an oligarchy, referred to as the Deep State.
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  7. We have once last shot to keep the US viable in the world economy. China has linked almost all of Eurasia and parts of Africa in the Belt and Road system. If the US has the vision we can be part of it. Without the effort both Americas, North and South, will dwindle into obscurity and chaos. 2017 is the last chance. see

    https://robertmagill.wordpress.com/2017/05/02/the-art-of-the-deal/

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    • Replies: @godfree Roberts
    Precisely. That's why I wrote this piece. We need to saddle up and ride fast or, by 2049 at the latest, the USA will be irrelevant.
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  8. Very interesting artiWhen I read In the jaws of the dragon 6 years ago and I found that book by accident, I just couldn’t believe it. It was a little bit too much. After that, I read other books from same author and read all columns written here on unz.com. I am always amazed by people who understood it much earlier than others, so much that Mr. Fingleton was perceived as eccentric for much of his career.

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  9. This kind of people are like some sort of modern Galileo’s. For a long time,people couldn’t accept many of his attitudes, but as the time passes by,it is becoming obvious how well he explained chinese system and international trade. Unfortunately, I haven’t read anything from him for some time and the problems he was talking about for years are only now becoming “mainstream”. It would be nice to see what he has to say about current standoff between China and USA. He was talking about that in the past,again before all others,but does he has something new?

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  10. World Values Surveys found that eighty-three percent say China is run for their benefit rather than for the benefit of special groups–compared to thirty-eight percent of Americans.

    83% feel the government is run for their benefit. 92% of the population is Han. Probably not a coincidence.

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  11. There’s no doubt that China will be the dominant power in the world by 2050. That’s just the normal march of human civilisation. By 2150, some other country will probably be replacing China, possibly India.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    India will never be a superpower. National iq of 82.

    India is more likely to divide into several more countries as India is more like the EU than America.
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  12. Ok,you can take ethno-nationalistic approach. But I think it is still more patriotic approach. In USA there is no approach,that is your problem. Or, oligarch supranational elite approach

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  13. Joe Hide says:

    To Godfrey Roberts,
    … Just a great article. You presented a topic I had never thought about (Comparative success / failure) of Chinese governing system vs. U.S. government. The criteria You laid out were well supported with logic and facts, over and over.
    … the conclusion I drew was that the Chinese leaders are using population opinion based mathematical and scientific analysis in determining goals and methods to improve their people’s lives.
    …. I would also like to point out that a scientifically based fairly easily implemented in the West method to reverse it’s destruction, would be to demand MRI, psychological, and technologically driven identifiers of traits of psychopathy, sociopathic behavior, narcissism, sadism, and insanity in sitting and potential candidates for public office and positions of power. Even cell phone aps doing this could eventually work.
    Also, Godfrey, the article was an appropriate length. Thank You for that too.

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    • Replies: @godfree Roberts
    Thanks. I'm trying to get a real conversation going about America's direction and China is a useful mirror...
    , @YW
    The person who wrote this article failed to mention that China censors its people. If people complain about how the government is behaving or say that the leaders are doing badly,etc., they can be sent to jail. The Chinese do not hide this. They are censoring their internet, they are censoring WeChat.

    We can talk about how bad the United States is - openly and freely here on the internet. And maybe, that is why we are all so disgruntled. We complain complain complain and read each other's complaints and get even more unhappy.

    IN China, the average work day is 9am-9pm and they work 6 days per week. Our elites gave them all of our tech and then gave them the right to trade with free economies even though Chinese companies are constantly loaned money by Chinese state banks to shore them up as needed. We couldn't compete with that. Our elites have what they want - as do China's. They now have a downtrodden group of laborers who will work for low wages, have no unions to protect them, and, I am sure our elites are salivating over China's new credit system that includes your chat comments etc in your credit rating...which determines if you can have a job, travel within and without the country, and whether you should be able to get loans.

    Invite that here with your glowing admiration. Why not? We have allowed our leaders (by not voting - most of us - by not caring - by not being active locally in politics) to do this to us - so now, I guess you all hope that if we adopt Communism a la China we will all be super happy just like the Chinese - who work 12 hours a day 6 days a week. We are all such idiots.
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  14. @DB Cooper
    "How long before they start selling the new, improved version?"

    I am sure China couldn't care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don't have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.

    I am sure China couldn’t care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don’t have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.

    Agree and disagree. For the most part, the CCP really doesn’t seem to largely care if others wish to adopt it – but that said, bits and parts of it are being adopted by various governments because it seems to work and China hasn’t been opposed to supporting formulation to advise governments(some African governments come to mind) which wish to mimic it further although always with the caveats that government is always going to be different with different people. In that sense, it does feel a bit like Confucianism or past Sinoculture exports; not a great effort to evangelize, but it does seem to spread somehow.

    If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.

    The main issue is incentives. The spoils system in “liberal democracy” creates an ultimately unsustainable system where basically everyone seeks to vote themselves to get the most goodies, and is obviously going to lead to massive debts. “Chinese democracy” has a different spoils system where Party functionaries try to represent themselves as successful, verdict is still out whether it works that much better but it has a different dynamic.

    For example, in the US, you might have black students feel that they are discriminated against and agitate for more representation or resources. In China, if Muslim students felt discriminated against and complained enough that it was noticed by the panopticon, a Party member responsible for the university might argue with others in a meeting to give them more halal foods, prayer rooms, etc. If it all works out, and the happy Muslims now provide greater value, the Party member gets rewarded in the future.

    It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see how this can go wrong(every province competes against each other in a hostile manner), but it does divorce the spoils system one step away from the mass beneficiaries, hopefully being a moderating effect.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen’s three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people.

    One cannot deny that Sun Yat’s China has been accomplished by the Communist Party: the rails, the ports, and industry. At the end of his life, he did say that the future of China was tied with the future of the CCP. For better or worse, he knew the reality of things to come.

    If he is the nominal Father of China, the CCP has been dutiful and has fulfilled his demands.

    I doubt that they ask “informed public” in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question.

    Depends on what you mean. They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn’t an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo.

    There’s a range of political views and an Overton Window in China as well, for what it is worth. Complaining about the government is a pastime, not too different from here.

    83% feel the government is run for their benefit. 92% of the population is Han. Probably not a coincidence.

    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.

    The sense that anyone can prove himself through virtue is a hallmark of this thinking.

    What you can’t be is Dr. Daniel A Bell, a white resident of China who constantly demands that China increase gay rights, female participation in government, etc and then complains about being excluded even though he wears Confucian garb. Ah, well, you see, trying to pozz a culture isn’t eagerly welcomed. He’s probably being treated nicer than if he was born Han.

    And yet in typical Confucian deference, despite how annoying he is, they still let him do what he wants and give him respect because he is a Tsinghua professor. That’s supposed to mean something. Unfortunately, you can see how this can be a vector for pozz.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Thought I'll add something to the ethnonationalist angle which I find amusing and consistent: early European visitors to China tended to comment positively to the quality of its government(scholars, education, etc), while early European visitors to Japan tended to comment positively to the quality of its people(courage, patience, etc).

    One could see it as a typical issue of institutions vs demographics. The latter, to be honest, is probably a better material to build from but reality being what it is, you work with what you have.
    , @Astuteobservor II
    very well written.
    , @Grandpa Charlie
    Thanks, Daniel, for responding to a couple of my points (in your response to DB Cooper). I questioned the accuracy of the "Edelman Trust Barometer" (for measuring trust of the people in the government), and you respond, as follows:

    "They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn’t an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo." -- Daniel Chieh
     
    You see, that certainly is very different from what is proclaimed by the "Trust Barometer" with its methodological quirks (basing conclusions on surveys of persons Edelman identifies as "informed" citizens, etc.), What you say makes a lot of sense. I am an octogenarian and so, while I cannot really say that I experienced the Great Depression and the New Deal as an adult, I definitely remember it as a child. And I remember how adults (even those with some Republican leanings) really did love FDR. (I refer you to Arthur Godfrey's radio coverage of the state funeral of FDR.) I believe what you say, Daniel, and not what the Edelman survey purports to be the case - 90% trust in "the government" - trust to do what? being the operative question.

    Of course, there can't be made too much of my comparison of Xi with FDR, since FDR was a war-time president in the time that I remember, but I have some understanding of how the great mass of Americans more-or-less venerated FDR even before the War, during the Great Depression. (Because we still had so much liberty back then, it was FDR's popularity that evoked big-money Republicans to attempt to vilify him in the corporate press.)

    I wish, Daniel, that you or someone would comment on what I have heard about how people in Hong Kong have experienced rule by Beijing (destruction of Hong Kong's democratic "traditions" or aspirations) .... how that has strongly influenced the people in Taiwan in becoming adamantly opposed to effective absorption into Beijing's government. Also, I would like to know if you find that the Republic of China has fulfilled Sun Yat-sen's instructions as well as has Beijing (or Xi)? It's rather astounding how little anyone in USA seems to know of the political writings of Sun Yat-sen ... we are still so Eurocentric in our thinking, even now in this new millennium.

    Generally, about the democracy question, I would quote what is attributed to Sir Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried." What we here in USA have become aware of (those of us who still can think in the midst of our Cultural Revolution) is that the PRC is something new, something that has not been tried.

    I think that we need to recall the great truth of conservatism, that the equating of democracy with liberty is nonsense. Democracy is one thing. Liberty (or freedom) is something else. We here in USA have lost so much of our liberty in recent years that it's seldom that anyone talks about freedom any more, except to bolster their particular economic theories. What a shame!
    , @anonymous

    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.
     
    Very interesting point. Most Han Chinese live in the east of the country, with some areas being nearly 100% Han. Many deal almost exclusively with other Han on a daily basis. My experience with Chinese people has been that many of them view the PRC as an extension and a representation of the Han nation. They are very proud to have a government that has been able to unify the entirety of Han Chinese in a way that it has probably never been unified before. I think part of the reason so many Chinese believe the government is run to their benefit is because China's strength relative to the rest of the world has increased so much under the Party's watch; although they also acknowledge that the Party has major shortcomings, as well. While it is technically not ethno-nationalist, I believe that, among Han, the image of China/PRC as being a nation-state that serves to benefit Han Chinese people may be more prevalent now than at any other point in history.
    , @Joe Wong
    Sun Yat-sen is his full name, Sun is his surname or family name, Yat-sen is his (first) name, you can call him Mr. Sun or Yat-sen, calling him Sun Yat is simply showing you are uneducated.
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  15. polistra says:

    Well, it would certainly be fair. China has been selling us poorly made crap for 30 years, we should sell them our poorly made crap.

    Trouble is, they’re smarter than we are. They aren’t fooled by nonsensical theories about “equality”, so they won’t buy our crap.

    Read More
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  16. @Daniel Chieh

    I am sure China couldn’t care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don’t have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.
     
    Agree and disagree. For the most part, the CCP really doesn't seem to largely care if others wish to adopt it - but that said, bits and parts of it are being adopted by various governments because it seems to work and China hasn't been opposed to supporting formulation to advise governments(some African governments come to mind) which wish to mimic it further although always with the caveats that government is always going to be different with different people. In that sense, it does feel a bit like Confucianism or past Sinoculture exports; not a great effort to evangelize, but it does seem to spread somehow.

    If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.
     
    The main issue is incentives. The spoils system in "liberal democracy" creates an ultimately unsustainable system where basically everyone seeks to vote themselves to get the most goodies, and is obviously going to lead to massive debts. "Chinese democracy" has a different spoils system where Party functionaries try to represent themselves as successful, verdict is still out whether it works that much better but it has a different dynamic.

    For example, in the US, you might have black students feel that they are discriminated against and agitate for more representation or resources. In China, if Muslim students felt discriminated against and complained enough that it was noticed by the panopticon, a Party member responsible for the university might argue with others in a meeting to give them more halal foods, prayer rooms, etc. If it all works out, and the happy Muslims now provide greater value, the Party member gets rewarded in the future.

    It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how this can go wrong(every province competes against each other in a hostile manner), but it does divorce the spoils system one step away from the mass beneficiaries, hopefully being a moderating effect.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen’s three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people.
     

    One cannot deny that Sun Yat's China has been accomplished by the Communist Party: the rails, the ports, and industry. At the end of his life, he did say that the future of China was tied with the future of the CCP. For better or worse, he knew the reality of things to come.

    If he is the nominal Father of China, the CCP has been dutiful and has fulfilled his demands.


    I doubt that they ask “informed public” in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question.
     
    Depends on what you mean. They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn't an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo.

    There's a range of political views and an Overton Window in China as well, for what it is worth. Complaining about the government is a pastime, not too different from here.


    83% feel the government is run for their benefit. 92% of the population is Han. Probably not a coincidence.
     
    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.

    The sense that anyone can prove himself through virtue is a hallmark of this thinking.

    What you can't be is Dr. Daniel A Bell, a white resident of China who constantly demands that China increase gay rights, female participation in government, etc and then complains about being excluded even though he wears Confucian garb. Ah, well, you see, trying to pozz a culture isn't eagerly welcomed. He's probably being treated nicer than if he was born Han.

    And yet in typical Confucian deference, despite how annoying he is, they still let him do what he wants and give him respect because he is a Tsinghua professor. That's supposed to mean something. Unfortunately, you can see how this can be a vector for pozz.

    Thought I’ll add something to the ethnonationalist angle which I find amusing and consistent: early European visitors to China tended to comment positively to the quality of its government(scholars, education, etc), while early European visitors to Japan tended to comment positively to the quality of its people(courage, patience, etc).

    One could see it as a typical issue of institutions vs demographics. The latter, to be honest, is probably a better material to build from but reality being what it is, you work with what you have.

    Read More
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  17. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Michael Kenny
    There's no doubt that China will be the dominant power in the world by 2050. That's just the normal march of human civilisation. By 2150, some other country will probably be replacing China, possibly India.

    India will never be a superpower. National iq of 82.

    India is more likely to divide into several more countries as India is more like the EU than America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Who knows what will happen in 100 years. India might even be able to have a competent military by then.
    , @Wally
    Hellooo. The US / America is becoming that of India and the EU. Where you been?
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  18. @Anonymous
    India will never be a superpower. National iq of 82.

    India is more likely to divide into several more countries as India is more like the EU than America.

    Who knows what will happen in 100 years. India might even be able to have a competent military by then.

    Read More
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  19. MBlanc46 says:

    “Democratic centralism”, i.e., dictatorship by the Communist Party. Leftist destroyers still peddling this evil a hundred years on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    The Chinese like it.

    It serves Chinese interests.
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  20. MBlanc46 says:
    @DB Cooper
    I read somewhere that to be a Chinese Communist party member at the very least you have to be at a certain top percentage in your class. So Sarah Palin type will never happen in China.

    So much the worse for the Chinese.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The Cultural Revolution had many experiments to the otherwise. They were lacking.
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  21. @MBlanc46
    So much the worse for the Chinese.

    The Cultural Revolution had many experiments to the otherwise. They were lacking.

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  22. Wally says: • Website

    China is an excellent example of what ethnic / racial solidarity can achieve.

    Such solidarity is now banned in The West if it involves Euro white gentiles.

    The West has done China an enormous favor.

    This fraud is the main cause of our demise:

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:

    http://codoh.com

    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    The ‘holocaust’ narrative doesn’t hold up to scrutiny so the usual enemies of free speech call for more censorship, more oppression, more violence.

    Read More
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  23. Wally says:
    @MBlanc46
    "Democratic centralism", i.e., dictatorship by the Communist Party. Leftist destroyers still peddling this evil a hundred years on.

    The Chinese like it.

    It serves Chinese interests.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    "The Chinese" who like it would be limited to the ruling elite of the CCP. Everyone else hates it because they don't enjoy any personal freedoms.
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  24. TheJester says:

    I can accept that the Chinese and Vietnamese have higher average IQs than northern Europeans … and that includes me. However, by analogy, my perception of Chinese society is that it functions like a bunch of ants efficiently running their ant hill with little individual creativity and strictly defined social roles. Individual happiness be damned, the focus is on the common good for the hill regardless of the amount of individual pain that might entail. This cultural predisposition follows Chinese immigrants to the United States. I find Asian restaurants, for example, to be coldly efficient and without ambiance. I feel like I’m eating at a factory farm.

    Valuing individualism more than group dynamics, I don’t think I would be comfortable living in an Oriental ant hill regardless of its virtues. I prefer Pericles to Mao.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Biff
    Very interesting(common) observation, and for the most part wrong. As a white cracker married to an Asian Chinese woman, it takes quite a while before you can see the forest through the trees. Asians are very tied to old cultures and traditions, and it is here in the west where we feel the need to social engineer behavior, and much of that through litigation.
    , @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    Han Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans do have higher average IQs than white Americans. Vietnamese do not.

    Southeast Asians are not particularly smart. Northeast Asians are.
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  25. Wally says:
    @Anonymous
    India will never be a superpower. National iq of 82.

    India is more likely to divide into several more countries as India is more like the EU than America.

    Hellooo. The US / America is becoming that of India and the EU. Where you been?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    China is an excellent example of a majority (Han Chinese) slowly but surely imposing their language and culture on ethnic minorities, notably Uyghurs and Tibetans but also Cantonese and others.

    You should read J.S. Mill on China. For most of human history, China was the wealthiest country in the world by far. Beginning around 1700, that changed and it hasn't gone back. There's a reason for that.
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  26. neutral says:

    Democracy basically means being ruled by the mass media (I include Facebook and Google as also in this group). If China wants to commit suicide then they should adopt “democracy”, if they want their nation to survive then the people must absolutely do everything in their power to never have the blight of democracy in their land.

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  27. @Grandpa Charlie
    Now, suppose that you would run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I mean, really, by comparing with USA, as we have become, sets a very low bar, does it not? Or compare the DPRK with the ROK?

    A problem in the methodology is that the government of the PRC may often be a reason why other nations do not have any chance to score well against China. E.g., I believe that the New China (PRC) took over the old China lobby after Kissinger's trip to Beijing in 1971. Now, about half a century later, agents of the PRC undoubtedly control "our" neocons. Of course, China has to share that control/influence with Isreali/Zionist lobby. In any case, our problem with bribery in renminbi is really entirely our problem. China has their corruption problem, that's for sure. And we have our corruption problem ... and that is our problem, not theirs

    It's like this: we (US) is like the Chinese Empire was in its decline and fall. Corruption is everywhere, and it's all for sale. We know that, but then we excuse it as "globalism" ... which is necessary or even "good" or anyway it's too late to turn it around.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen's three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people. (Note that it isn't "globalism, democracy, etc."!) According to Wikipedia: Sun Yat-sen believed that the economic livelihood of the people depended on adopting the teachings of the American economist Henry George, writing that "The teachings of your single-taxer, Henry George, will be the basis of our program of reform." It's reported that Taiwan today has a single-tax land tax as the basis of its system of taxation. Many believe that that is the only way to prevent cyclic real estate crashes, and it's interesting that the PRC (mainland China) has experienced real estate bubbles and crashes, although the worst aspects of the crashes may have been avoided by government banking interventions.

    The problem with all of this is: what about Hong Kong? I have it from Chinese people in this country (USA) that there is at this time no chance of actual effective reunification of Taiwan into the PRC for just one reason: the experience of the freedom-loving people of Hong Kong. So, the people of Taiwan look at Hong Kong and see that Beijing could never be trusted to keep its word in regards to honoring the now-traditional ways of democracy that have developed in Taiwan (at heavy cost to freedom-loving Chinese over the years). Carter Center and all, I wonder about these polls and how accurate they really are. True, I don't live in China and never have .... but what I hear is nobody trusts the elite. The "Edelman Trust barometer"? I doubt that they ask "informed public" in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question. But maybe I'm wrong about that. As an octogenarian, I certainly do remember many years when the American people trusted their government over 90%, for sure - except probably for African-Americans or, as they were known back then, "colored people." And that brings us to one final quibble: did Edelman do their survey throughout all of China, like in Tibet?

    For sure, we are now enduring our cultural revolution much more than we did even in the hay days of the 60s. And, for sure, we are, in many ways, at our nadir. But who knows? Maybe we have a long ways to fall yet.

    Now, suppose that you would run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)!

    by this statement I take it you have some thoughts on the matter? care to share it? or was it all just hot air?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Same sex marriage: Taiwan 1, China 0.

    Winning!
    , @Erebus
    It was all just hot air.
    Taiwan doesn't know whether to shit, go blind or skip rope. It's in a Samuel Beck-ian spot - it can't move, and it can't stay where it is. So it bides time until something, somebody, somewhere changes. It's been treading water for 2 decades now, unable to define itself, waiting for a current to take it somewhere.
    , @Grandpa Charlie
    No, AstuteObserver II, I have no preconception of what the results would be if the authors of the article would "run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)" I just think the results would be interesting. I believe that the people of Taiwan went though many pitched battles with the KMT to establish their version of democratic institutions. The only thing like that in history of the PRC would, I believe, be Tiananmen Suuare in 1989 - so no prolonged struggle to establish democratic institutions. Imo, democracy requires a continuing struggle between the people and the government.
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  28. @Daniel Chieh

    I am sure China couldn’t care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don’t have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.
     
    Agree and disagree. For the most part, the CCP really doesn't seem to largely care if others wish to adopt it - but that said, bits and parts of it are being adopted by various governments because it seems to work and China hasn't been opposed to supporting formulation to advise governments(some African governments come to mind) which wish to mimic it further although always with the caveats that government is always going to be different with different people. In that sense, it does feel a bit like Confucianism or past Sinoculture exports; not a great effort to evangelize, but it does seem to spread somehow.

    If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.
     
    The main issue is incentives. The spoils system in "liberal democracy" creates an ultimately unsustainable system where basically everyone seeks to vote themselves to get the most goodies, and is obviously going to lead to massive debts. "Chinese democracy" has a different spoils system where Party functionaries try to represent themselves as successful, verdict is still out whether it works that much better but it has a different dynamic.

    For example, in the US, you might have black students feel that they are discriminated against and agitate for more representation or resources. In China, if Muslim students felt discriminated against and complained enough that it was noticed by the panopticon, a Party member responsible for the university might argue with others in a meeting to give them more halal foods, prayer rooms, etc. If it all works out, and the happy Muslims now provide greater value, the Party member gets rewarded in the future.

    It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how this can go wrong(every province competes against each other in a hostile manner), but it does divorce the spoils system one step away from the mass beneficiaries, hopefully being a moderating effect.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen’s three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people.
     

    One cannot deny that Sun Yat's China has been accomplished by the Communist Party: the rails, the ports, and industry. At the end of his life, he did say that the future of China was tied with the future of the CCP. For better or worse, he knew the reality of things to come.

    If he is the nominal Father of China, the CCP has been dutiful and has fulfilled his demands.


    I doubt that they ask “informed public” in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question.
     
    Depends on what you mean. They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn't an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo.

    There's a range of political views and an Overton Window in China as well, for what it is worth. Complaining about the government is a pastime, not too different from here.


    83% feel the government is run for their benefit. 92% of the population is Han. Probably not a coincidence.
     
    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.

    The sense that anyone can prove himself through virtue is a hallmark of this thinking.

    What you can't be is Dr. Daniel A Bell, a white resident of China who constantly demands that China increase gay rights, female participation in government, etc and then complains about being excluded even though he wears Confucian garb. Ah, well, you see, trying to pozz a culture isn't eagerly welcomed. He's probably being treated nicer than if he was born Han.

    And yet in typical Confucian deference, despite how annoying he is, they still let him do what he wants and give him respect because he is a Tsinghua professor. That's supposed to mean something. Unfortunately, you can see how this can be a vector for pozz.

    very well written.

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  29. @Sergey Krieger
    I am pretty outdated on China, but I think the author is idealizing. Regarding USA it has never been democracy. It is republic which I'd different.the whole democracy thing is just a wool continuously pulled to keep people preoccupied. Democratic government heeds and cares for majority and I n this regard USA government is not democracy. On the other hand Soviet government was democratic. Elections mean nothing. I guess in this regard China is also more democratic than USA. However, long term I am not optimistic about China future mostly due to population size and resources ecology limits.

    Tom Friedman of New York Times beat this ridiculous author by several years in terms of becoming an obsequious fan of China . Oh yes way over-the-top in idealizing .

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    Tom Friedman has been a fan of India too. Look at where India is now, still a third world hell-hole. Tom Friedman may be right on China but definitely wrong on India.
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  30. Realist says:
    @Sergey Krieger
    I am pretty outdated on China, but I think the author is idealizing. Regarding USA it has never been democracy. It is republic which I'd different.the whole democracy thing is just a wool continuously pulled to keep people preoccupied. Democratic government heeds and cares for majority and I n this regard USA government is not democracy. On the other hand Soviet government was democratic. Elections mean nothing. I guess in this regard China is also more democratic than USA. However, long term I am not optimistic about China future mostly due to population size and resources ecology limits.

    ” It is republic which I’d different.the whole democracy thing is just a wool continuously pulled to keep people preoccupied. Democratic government heeds and cares for majority and I n this regard USA government is not democracy.”

    There is no functional difference between a democracy and a republic. Our democracy/republic failed decades ago and we now live in an oligarchy, referred to as the Deep State.

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  31. Excellent article. The Chinese have always been a naturally meritocratic people, believing that a man’s actions and accomplishments define him rather than believing in the degenerate idea that merely being born the right skin color makes one superior.

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  32. DB Cooper says:
    @Realist
    Our democracy isn't even 100 years old and it has failed miserably. Democracy is the most corrupt form of government. If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.

    There is no corruption in the US because corruption has been institutionalized called lobbying. Lobbying, either by domestic groups or foreign entities/governments is probably a unique American feature among the democracies in the world.

    Read More
    • Agree: Escher
    • Replies: @Escher
    Lobbying and the revolving door between government and private company boards.
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  33. @Daniel Chieh

    I am sure China couldn’t care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don’t have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.
     
    Agree and disagree. For the most part, the CCP really doesn't seem to largely care if others wish to adopt it - but that said, bits and parts of it are being adopted by various governments because it seems to work and China hasn't been opposed to supporting formulation to advise governments(some African governments come to mind) which wish to mimic it further although always with the caveats that government is always going to be different with different people. In that sense, it does feel a bit like Confucianism or past Sinoculture exports; not a great effort to evangelize, but it does seem to spread somehow.

    If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.
     
    The main issue is incentives. The spoils system in "liberal democracy" creates an ultimately unsustainable system where basically everyone seeks to vote themselves to get the most goodies, and is obviously going to lead to massive debts. "Chinese democracy" has a different spoils system where Party functionaries try to represent themselves as successful, verdict is still out whether it works that much better but it has a different dynamic.

    For example, in the US, you might have black students feel that they are discriminated against and agitate for more representation or resources. In China, if Muslim students felt discriminated against and complained enough that it was noticed by the panopticon, a Party member responsible for the university might argue with others in a meeting to give them more halal foods, prayer rooms, etc. If it all works out, and the happy Muslims now provide greater value, the Party member gets rewarded in the future.

    It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how this can go wrong(every province competes against each other in a hostile manner), but it does divorce the spoils system one step away from the mass beneficiaries, hopefully being a moderating effect.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen’s three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people.
     

    One cannot deny that Sun Yat's China has been accomplished by the Communist Party: the rails, the ports, and industry. At the end of his life, he did say that the future of China was tied with the future of the CCP. For better or worse, he knew the reality of things to come.

    If he is the nominal Father of China, the CCP has been dutiful and has fulfilled his demands.


    I doubt that they ask “informed public” in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question.
     
    Depends on what you mean. They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn't an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo.

    There's a range of political views and an Overton Window in China as well, for what it is worth. Complaining about the government is a pastime, not too different from here.


    83% feel the government is run for their benefit. 92% of the population is Han. Probably not a coincidence.
     
    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.

    The sense that anyone can prove himself through virtue is a hallmark of this thinking.

    What you can't be is Dr. Daniel A Bell, a white resident of China who constantly demands that China increase gay rights, female participation in government, etc and then complains about being excluded even though he wears Confucian garb. Ah, well, you see, trying to pozz a culture isn't eagerly welcomed. He's probably being treated nicer than if he was born Han.

    And yet in typical Confucian deference, despite how annoying he is, they still let him do what he wants and give him respect because he is a Tsinghua professor. That's supposed to mean something. Unfortunately, you can see how this can be a vector for pozz.

    Thanks, Daniel, for responding to a couple of my points (in your response to DB Cooper). I questioned the accuracy of the “Edelman Trust Barometer” (for measuring trust of the people in the government), and you respond, as follows:

    “They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn’t an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo.” — Daniel Chieh

    You see, that certainly is very different from what is proclaimed by the “Trust Barometer” with its methodological quirks (basing conclusions on surveys of persons Edelman identifies as “informed” citizens, etc.), What you say makes a lot of sense. I am an octogenarian and so, while I cannot really say that I experienced the Great Depression and the New Deal as an adult, I definitely remember it as a child. And I remember how adults (even those with some Republican leanings) really did love FDR. (I refer you to Arthur Godfrey’s radio coverage of the state funeral of FDR.) I believe what you say, Daniel, and not what the Edelman survey purports to be the case – 90% trust in “the government” – trust to do what? being the operative question.

    Of course, there can’t be made too much of my comparison of Xi with FDR, since FDR was a war-time president in the time that I remember, but I have some understanding of how the great mass of Americans more-or-less venerated FDR even before the War, during the Great Depression. (Because we still had so much liberty back then, it was FDR’s popularity that evoked big-money Republicans to attempt to vilify him in the corporate press.)

    I wish, Daniel, that you or someone would comment on what I have heard about how people in Hong Kong have experienced rule by Beijing (destruction of Hong Kong’s democratic “traditions” or aspirations) …. how that has strongly influenced the people in Taiwan in becoming adamantly opposed to effective absorption into Beijing’s government. Also, I would like to know if you find that the Republic of China has fulfilled Sun Yat-sen’s instructions as well as has Beijing (or Xi)? It’s rather astounding how little anyone in USA seems to know of the political writings of Sun Yat-sen … we are still so Eurocentric in our thinking, even now in this new millennium.

    Generally, about the democracy question, I would quote what is attributed to Sir Winston Churchill: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.” What we here in USA have become aware of (those of us who still can think in the midst of our Cultural Revolution) is that the PRC is something new, something that has not been tried.

    I think that we need to recall the great truth of conservatism, that the equating of democracy with liberty is nonsense. Democracy is one thing. Liberty (or freedom) is something else. We here in USA have lost so much of our liberty in recent years that it’s seldom that anyone talks about freedom any more, except to bolster their particular economic theories. What a shame!

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore. They were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die.

    What resistance? Its all dead men walking.

    The spirit is dead. The body will catch up shortly.

    , @Facts are the new lies
    "Generally, about the democracy question, I would quote what is attributed to Sir Winston Churchill: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.” "

    Winston Churchill died before the rise of Singapore. Today he would probably say the best form of government is that of a benevolent autocrat, like Lee Kuan Yew.

    Throughout history dynasties in China had always been undone by decadence and corruption. It's ingrained in their culture. China today remains one of the most corrupt countries in the world, not much better than India. The only difference is, in China the officials steal from the people while they get things done, in India they steal and get nothing done.

    Lee Kuan Yew was able to stem out corruption in his government because a) it's a small country of 5m as opposed to a country of 1.3Billion, and b) he paid his cabinet members very well (close to a $1million a year in salary) so they have no incentive to be corrupt. He also made all government employees wear name tags and urge all citizens to report all cases of corruption.

    The president of China makes only $26,000 a year. The rank and file make even less. And China being so huge the government trust busters have limited reach. There's corruption up and down every level of government in China. One city official was so corrupt he actually had a money box in his office. Anyone who came in to ask for anything first needed to deposit 10,000 Yuan in the box before they asked for any favor.

    Where are most of these rich corrupt officials these days? Probably somewhere in CA, or Seattle, NYC, Sydney, Vancouver, Miami, living the good life. The Economist has written about the phenomenon of the "naked official" in China, where the corrupt official moves his wife and kid overseas, with all their money, while he still lives and puts up the pretense of work in China, ready to flee on a moment's notice, usually in the middle of the night. There are also factory owners who leave in the middle of the night, leaving behind months of unpaid wages to their employees. Every business in China keeps 3 sets of books, one set for the government auditors, one set for the foreign partners, and one set for in house consumption. When the government comes knocking probing for tax fraud, they hang the accountant out to dry.

    China is an even bigger house of cards than the US. That's why anyone who can afford to is looking to leave, not much better than India. Only once they get here they start talking up the greatness of the motherland, like the Indians. What a joke. We should send them all packing. 90% of those here are probably wanted in China for some form of corruption. Americans are idiots for letting them colonize us like this, that's why they insist on keeping their rotten culture believing it to be superior to ours. As more and more of them immigrate here they'll transform us into another China in no time.

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  34. Erebus says:
    @DB Cooper
    I read somewhere that to be a Chinese Communist party member at the very least you have to be at a certain top percentage in your class. So Sarah Palin type will never happen in China.

    I have no idea of “certain top percentage(s)” and Communist Party membership, but I can tell you that the nice young man that worked with me when I first started in China graduated from a 2nd tier Univ with a BA in English Lit (placing 4th in class), and minor in Int’l Commercial Law, and failed the Civil Service exam 3x. Memory fails me, but I seem to recall he may been have shooting for the Foreign Service, which sets a higher bar than the domestic version, but his failure is indicative of the standards candidates are expected to meet.
    Anyhow, the Civil Service is a prestige job in China that attracts talented people, so the govt can afford to be picky and they take full advantage of it. Where I come from, the Civil Service apparently serves primarily as a social safety net for a rabble that lacked the wit to collect enough rags, hooch and cardboard to make a go of sleeping in parks.
    The “international community” had no idea what they unleashed when they welcomed China into the international system. I’m not sure they get it now, or that they ever will, but one day they’ll wake up to find China running it and wonder how it came to be so.

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  35. @Astuteobservor II

    Now, suppose that you would run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)!
     
    by this statement I take it you have some thoughts on the matter? care to share it? or was it all just hot air?

    Same sex marriage: Taiwan 1, China 0.

    Winning!

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  36. DB Cooper says:
    @Китайский дурак
    Tom Friedman of New York Times beat this ridiculous author by several years in terms of becoming an obsequious fan of China . Oh yes way over-the-top in idealizing .

    Tom Friedman has been a fan of India too. Look at where India is now, still a third world hell-hole. Tom Friedman may be right on China but definitely wrong on India.

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  37. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Now, suppose that you would run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)!
     
    by this statement I take it you have some thoughts on the matter? care to share it? or was it all just hot air?

    It was all just hot air.
    Taiwan doesn’t know whether to shit, go blind or skip rope. It’s in a Samuel Beck-ian spot – it can’t move, and it can’t stay where it is. So it bides time until something, somebody, somewhere changes. It’s been treading water for 2 decades now, unable to define itself, waiting for a current to take it somewhere.

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  38. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    Hellooo. The US / America is becoming that of India and the EU. Where you been?

    China is an excellent example of a majority (Han Chinese) slowly but surely imposing their language and culture on ethnic minorities, notably Uyghurs and Tibetans but also Cantonese and others.

    You should read J.S. Mill on China. For most of human history, China was the wealthiest country in the world by far. Beginning around 1700, that changed and it hasn’t gone back. There’s a reason for that.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    His beliefs should be taken with a grain of salt; while Song China was immensely "freer" than for example, the Qing dynasty, it was also immeasurably weaker. At the end of the day, per capita income only means so much when someone can just invade you and take your nice things.
    , @Wally
    It appears Mr. Chieh has set you straight.
    , @Anonymous
    Actually, the best example of this I can think of is India.

    Since its existence India has mainly been a wide open territory. Different cultures with different languages could exist.

    But ever since the British Raj created India, Indians have tried to imitate their colonial rulers by usurping other people and cultures to consolidate control.

    This is Modi and his Hindutava, and you can see it best with the heavy hand Indians weird again the Nepalese and the Bhutanese. At least China has a pretense of a meritocracy where the people being usurped get some participation. In India it is straight up colonialization.
    , @denk
    Every province is free to speak its own dialect.
    Mandarin is the common lingo for all.
    Simple as that.
    Cantonese are also Hans, moron !


    Everybody thought murkka pioneered the
    'weapon of mass migration', a tool Washington use to destabilise and weaken the Euros.
    Well, Here's a dirty little secret......
    The mother of WMM is......India. !

    Nepalese and Sri Lankans talk alot about 'Sikkimisation', 'Bhutanisation',
    'Fijisation'.

    Fijians are a minority in their own country, being overwhelmed by illegal immigrants from India.
    Bhutan is effectively run by Indian immigrants .
    Sikkim was first 'Bhutanised' , then gobbled up wholesale.
    Many Nepalese and Sri LaNkans lament they are already de facto Bhutanised, on the way to being 'Sikkimised' !

    Same in the Indian NorthEast, Tibetan/Burma people swarmed by Indian immigrants from the heartland.

    Tip of an iceberg.
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  39. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    The Chinese like it.

    It serves Chinese interests.

    “The Chinese” who like it would be limited to the ruling elite of the CCP. Everyone else hates it because they don’t enjoy any personal freedoms.

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    • Replies: @Wally
    Proof of this "hate" by Chinese is where exactly?
    , @Anonymous
    I don't think you read the article.

    It seems like the Chinese actually do like it. Their leaders aren't importing loads of 3rd worlders after all.
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  40. @Grandpa Charlie
    Thanks, Daniel, for responding to a couple of my points (in your response to DB Cooper). I questioned the accuracy of the "Edelman Trust Barometer" (for measuring trust of the people in the government), and you respond, as follows:

    "They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn’t an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo." -- Daniel Chieh
     
    You see, that certainly is very different from what is proclaimed by the "Trust Barometer" with its methodological quirks (basing conclusions on surveys of persons Edelman identifies as "informed" citizens, etc.), What you say makes a lot of sense. I am an octogenarian and so, while I cannot really say that I experienced the Great Depression and the New Deal as an adult, I definitely remember it as a child. And I remember how adults (even those with some Republican leanings) really did love FDR. (I refer you to Arthur Godfrey's radio coverage of the state funeral of FDR.) I believe what you say, Daniel, and not what the Edelman survey purports to be the case - 90% trust in "the government" - trust to do what? being the operative question.

    Of course, there can't be made too much of my comparison of Xi with FDR, since FDR was a war-time president in the time that I remember, but I have some understanding of how the great mass of Americans more-or-less venerated FDR even before the War, during the Great Depression. (Because we still had so much liberty back then, it was FDR's popularity that evoked big-money Republicans to attempt to vilify him in the corporate press.)

    I wish, Daniel, that you or someone would comment on what I have heard about how people in Hong Kong have experienced rule by Beijing (destruction of Hong Kong's democratic "traditions" or aspirations) .... how that has strongly influenced the people in Taiwan in becoming adamantly opposed to effective absorption into Beijing's government. Also, I would like to know if you find that the Republic of China has fulfilled Sun Yat-sen's instructions as well as has Beijing (or Xi)? It's rather astounding how little anyone in USA seems to know of the political writings of Sun Yat-sen ... we are still so Eurocentric in our thinking, even now in this new millennium.

    Generally, about the democracy question, I would quote what is attributed to Sir Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried." What we here in USA have become aware of (those of us who still can think in the midst of our Cultural Revolution) is that the PRC is something new, something that has not been tried.

    I think that we need to recall the great truth of conservatism, that the equating of democracy with liberty is nonsense. Democracy is one thing. Liberty (or freedom) is something else. We here in USA have lost so much of our liberty in recent years that it's seldom that anyone talks about freedom any more, except to bolster their particular economic theories. What a shame!

    Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore. They were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die.

    What resistance? Its all dead men walking.

    The spirit is dead. The body will catch up shortly.

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    • Replies: @Grandpa Charlie

    "Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore [in terms of the legacy of Sun Yat-sen]. They [the KMT?] were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die." -- Daniel Chieh
     
    Thank you for concise view of what's going on with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I guess that's why we hear almost nothing out of there anymore. Very buttoned up. But, you know:

    "According to governmental statistics, over 95% of the Republic of China's population is now made up of Han Chinese" -- wikipedia article Demographics of Taiwan
     
    ... so what I would think is that the people are desperately trying to find a way out of Kissinger's 1971 bargain that gave Taiwan to the PRC, along with China's permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Also, they appear to be trying to attract some loyalty to the Taipei government, from whatever source. Also, they probably miscalculated that Hillary would win in 2016. All-in-all, I get the picture: the people of Taiwan are f*cked - just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. C'est la guerre!
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  41. This again? Similar things were heard during the Cold war: “look at Soviet, what they can do, how good they are compared to capitalist USA”
    Embarassing, and frankly disgusting, to see self-proclaimed UNZ patriots and nationalists, so eagerly jump the China band-wagon. Just move there, the West needs no more self-hating fools.

    Tell me, what is the POINT of all this? To have a machinery of 1.3 billion people smoothly operating – to the benefit of whom? Certainly not the individual Chinese citizen.
    That was the whole point of liberal democracy — it wasn’t as if previous models lacked organization and ambitions. But once people reach a certain level of material wealth, other things tend to become important to them — like self-fulfillment, freedom and well… potable tap water maybe. This is called individualism, and it’s what made the United States such a fantastic place in comparison. In the US, individualism was not just an idea, it was the very foundation. That’s remarkable, and will go down in history as a turning point, whereas China will at best go down as another Soviet Union: large, powerful, but in the end just another authoritarian regime.

    I suppose it all boils down to preferrence. In my mind, China is already hell: overpopulated, money-obsessed, polluted, full of dumb, obedient collectivists, and a place where you just work, work is the meaning of life there.
    Those are the exact things I fear Europe becoming when importing people who don’t know any better — not something I long for it to become.

    It’s still too soon to say what will happen, China is still very poor per capita, and their entire economy revolves around us spending money there, so portraying it as if they already won is borderline treasonous.
    Also, using these joke polls to back your claim is laughable.

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  42. @Anon
    China is an excellent example of a majority (Han Chinese) slowly but surely imposing their language and culture on ethnic minorities, notably Uyghurs and Tibetans but also Cantonese and others.

    You should read J.S. Mill on China. For most of human history, China was the wealthiest country in the world by far. Beginning around 1700, that changed and it hasn't gone back. There's a reason for that.

    His beliefs should be taken with a grain of salt; while Song China was immensely “freer” than for example, the Qing dynasty, it was also immeasurably weaker. At the end of the day, per capita income only means so much when someone can just invade you and take your nice things.

    Read More
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  43. China is facing a huge problem with automation for example. Hundreds of millions people there rely on manufacturing for their salary. Let’s say you make plastic toys sold in the US. If an American, automated toy factory opens, that Chinese person will suffer two-fold. First, he will lose his job. Second, none of that toy money ends up in Chinese public domain.

    This death of factory labour happened in just decades in the US, and if it happens in China the consequences would be far more devastating. I can’t see how high population serves as an advantage then. And the age of states is long gone: the kind of unconditional loyalty to one’s state doesn’t exist anymore – private interests run this world. The CCP just happens to function like a conglomerate. But if things go south, Chinese society will start cracking just like the American and European have.

    No country needs 1 billion engineers, so what exactly are these people supposed to do? I think China is a ticking time bomb, but everyone is riding a gravy train now, so nobody really cares.

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    • Replies: @Hbd investor
    Classic ludite fallacy

    If you invent a machine that screws in screws, the unemployed screw screwers will get new jobs doing something else.

    When the automation hits, robots will do all the manual labor while new jobs will spring up

    New jobs have already sprung up, the rich have full time people that work planning their vacations, activities and instagram shoots and full time photographers following them around for instagram, they are buying mega weddings which requires massive staffs and years of planning.

    China is actually set to weather this storm because of a high average iq and cultral attitudes towards work
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  44. Very ignorant man, Schmidt.
    Ceasar fought democratic German tribes.
    The Dutch republic prospered in the 17th century.
    Until the end of the 1çth century Britainn was ruled by landowners.
    Why should our democracy, or the semblance thereof, be sold to other peoples ?
    Cannot Chinese, or any people, decide for themselves what kind of government they want ?

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  45. @DB Cooper
    "How long before they start selling the new, improved version?"

    I am sure China couldn't care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don't have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.

    The west, controlled by the USA, tries to impose what the USA sees as democracy, anywhere, in order to control the whole world.
    I like Trump for openly acknowledging that that the USA was unable to install a puppet regime in Afghanistan, and now will openly use any brutal force the USA thinks is necessary.

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  46. Biff says:
    @TheJester
    I can accept that the Chinese and Vietnamese have higher average IQs than northern Europeans ... and that includes me. However, by analogy, my perception of Chinese society is that it functions like a bunch of ants efficiently running their ant hill with little individual creativity and strictly defined social roles. Individual happiness be damned, the focus is on the common good for the hill regardless of the amount of individual pain that might entail. This cultural predisposition follows Chinese immigrants to the United States. I find Asian restaurants, for example, to be coldly efficient and without ambiance. I feel like I'm eating at a factory farm.

    Valuing individualism more than group dynamics, I don't think I would be comfortable living in an Oriental ant hill regardless of its virtues. I prefer Pericles to Mao.

    Very interesting(common) observation, and for the most part wrong. As a white cracker married to an Asian Chinese woman, it takes quite a while before you can see the forest through the trees. Asians are very tied to old cultures and traditions, and it is here in the west where we feel the need to social engineer behavior, and much of that through litigation.

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    • Replies: @TheJester
    Please reread the article we are commenting on. It describes ants living in an ant hill ... you know, the Mandate from Heaven thing paired with the felt need for perfect social harmony. Only ants would understand this.
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  47. EdwardM says:

    How do you explain that Chinese people have no individual liberty? No freedom of speech or association, no independent media or civic groups, minimal freedom of religion. No protection from search and seizure or property rights or right to due process. Obviously no right to bear arms.

    You can rightly complain about erosion of these rights in the U.S., but can’t compare us to China.

    Either the author’s thesis is wrong because Chinese “democracy” doesn’t deliver these benefits to the people in spite of their desires (which, according to the neo-cons, are universal) or else the Chinese people really don’t, for the most part, value them.

    It could well be the latter. But then the premise of this article makes less sense, because the values of collectivist people like the Chinese are so different than those of the West that it’s hard to meaningfully compare what each would consider democratic values.

    For another example, I lived in Qatar, which is a semi-totalitarian semi-police state in which citizens have virtually no individual rights and even less participation in governance than those in China. Yet the government line is that Qatar is “democratic” because the emir consults with the heads of the key families, who in turn consult with their members, etc., which isn’t really necessary anyway since everyone would agree on what’s in their best interest anyway. And they actually believe it.

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    • Replies: @Wally
    "How do you explain that Chinese people have no individual liberty? No freedom of speech or association, no independent media or civic groups, minimal freedom of religion. No protection from search and seizure or property rights or right to due process. Obviously no right to bear arms."

    As if the US is hanging on tight to it's liberties. Get real.

    All the Totalitarian Leftists / Zionist liars use the 'holocau$t' fraud as a cover.


    The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
     
    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com
    , @Daniel Chieh
    What an interesting fantasy you have of China: are you sure that you haven't confused it with North Korea?

    What's Caixin, I wonder?Pearl River Economic Radio? And how independent is US media? They seem to have all turned together to promote trannies together. How amazingly coordinated.
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  48. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am sure China couldn’t care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don’t have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.
     
    Agree and disagree. For the most part, the CCP really doesn't seem to largely care if others wish to adopt it - but that said, bits and parts of it are being adopted by various governments because it seems to work and China hasn't been opposed to supporting formulation to advise governments(some African governments come to mind) which wish to mimic it further although always with the caveats that government is always going to be different with different people. In that sense, it does feel a bit like Confucianism or past Sinoculture exports; not a great effort to evangelize, but it does seem to spread somehow.

    If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.
     
    The main issue is incentives. The spoils system in "liberal democracy" creates an ultimately unsustainable system where basically everyone seeks to vote themselves to get the most goodies, and is obviously going to lead to massive debts. "Chinese democracy" has a different spoils system where Party functionaries try to represent themselves as successful, verdict is still out whether it works that much better but it has a different dynamic.

    For example, in the US, you might have black students feel that they are discriminated against and agitate for more representation or resources. In China, if Muslim students felt discriminated against and complained enough that it was noticed by the panopticon, a Party member responsible for the university might argue with others in a meeting to give them more halal foods, prayer rooms, etc. If it all works out, and the happy Muslims now provide greater value, the Party member gets rewarded in the future.

    It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how this can go wrong(every province competes against each other in a hostile manner), but it does divorce the spoils system one step away from the mass beneficiaries, hopefully being a moderating effect.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen’s three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people.
     

    One cannot deny that Sun Yat's China has been accomplished by the Communist Party: the rails, the ports, and industry. At the end of his life, he did say that the future of China was tied with the future of the CCP. For better or worse, he knew the reality of things to come.

    If he is the nominal Father of China, the CCP has been dutiful and has fulfilled his demands.


    I doubt that they ask “informed public” in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question.
     
    Depends on what you mean. They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn't an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo.

    There's a range of political views and an Overton Window in China as well, for what it is worth. Complaining about the government is a pastime, not too different from here.


    83% feel the government is run for their benefit. 92% of the population is Han. Probably not a coincidence.
     
    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.

    The sense that anyone can prove himself through virtue is a hallmark of this thinking.

    What you can't be is Dr. Daniel A Bell, a white resident of China who constantly demands that China increase gay rights, female participation in government, etc and then complains about being excluded even though he wears Confucian garb. Ah, well, you see, trying to pozz a culture isn't eagerly welcomed. He's probably being treated nicer than if he was born Han.

    And yet in typical Confucian deference, despite how annoying he is, they still let him do what he wants and give him respect because he is a Tsinghua professor. That's supposed to mean something. Unfortunately, you can see how this can be a vector for pozz.

    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.

    Very interesting point. Most Han Chinese live in the east of the country, with some areas being nearly 100% Han. Many deal almost exclusively with other Han on a daily basis. My experience with Chinese people has been that many of them view the PRC as an extension and a representation of the Han nation. They are very proud to have a government that has been able to unify the entirety of Han Chinese in a way that it has probably never been unified before. I think part of the reason so many Chinese believe the government is run to their benefit is because China’s strength relative to the rest of the world has increased so much under the Party’s watch; although they also acknowledge that the Party has major shortcomings, as well. While it is technically not ethno-nationalist, I believe that, among Han, the image of China/PRC as being a nation-state that serves to benefit Han Chinese people may be more prevalent now than at any other point in history.

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  49. Carpenter says:

    “Our presidents hire and fire all senior officials, secretly ban fifty thousand citizens from flying, order people kidnapped, tortured, imprisoned and assassinated and take the country to war. No Chinese leader, not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things.”

    This is ridiculous BS. Mao killed millions. He sent Han Chinese to populate the western-most provinces to displace the people there. He destroyed ancient temples and mansions and monuments, and tortured people for having built businesses. He forced the country to destroy all metal tools and pots and pans to create useless steel, so that twenty millions starved to death while harvests rotted. After that he lost some power, so he sicked the Red Guardists on the realists in the party, and put millions in prison camps.

    Mao had his soldiers bring him young girls from the villages around Beijing, and raped them. He raped thousands of girls. Because he had syphilis, and thought sex with virgin girls would help him. And because he was a psychopath.

    And of course, he also ordered that families could have no more than one child each. “not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things”? Surely not! Only kill tens of millions of people, destroy the economy by decree, have tens of millions put in prison camps without a trial, and force people to only have one child!

    In other words, Godfree Roberts is again full of shit. And those polls, saying 90 percent of the people support the government’s policies? Laughable, just what you’d expect in a totalitarian state. Most Chinese HATE the party. Everything said here about the party being responsive to the people is a lie. It is an extremely corrupt machine. The “candidates” are picked by the party and elected because they want it.

    If the people had their way the first thing they’d do would be to prosecute the party officials, and to finally remove the communist label from government.

    Maybe Godfree can answer why the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    You have actually answer your own question already. Godfree is talking about the current state of affairs in China and you are citing things happened in China fifty years ago. China has been changing at a breakneck speed continuously for the past thirty years. The mood of a country can change rapidly, and thirty years is a long time. Imagine you are talking about the US of today and someone insist you are spewing nonsense citing things in the US fifty years ago.

    Consider that during Mao's years food has to be rationed and bicycle is a luxury goods few can afford and last year 133 million Chinese travel overseas as tourists. With that kind of changes in such a short period of time don't you think it is only natural that people should be pretty content and happy with their government? Here is one more statistics. Last year Chinese tourists spent a whopping $221 billions US dollars overseas, more than twice the US. More than the US, Germany and UK tourists combined.

    https://fronteranews.com/news/asia/chinese-international-tourists-now-spend-as-much-as-us-germany-and-uk-tourists-combined/
    , @godfree Roberts
    It's true that the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy–until the CCP took over and implemented democracy there for the first time in its history. Last time I was there democracy was flourishing, even as HK was falling behind Guangzhou...
    , @denk

    'Mao had his soldiers bring him young girls from the villages around Beijing, and raped them. He raped thousands of girls. Because he had syphilis, and thought sex with virgin girls would help him. And because he was a psychopath.'
     
    '
    This is the result of 70 years of brain washing....nuthin left between your ears.
    I've come across so many dumb fuck in my time, but you take the cake !

    Mao sent Han Chinese to populate the western-most provinces to displace the people there
     
    Hans moving west, Tibetans, Uighurs moving East, all in the faMily.

    Hans dont go 3000 miles away from home to evict Okinawans from their ancestral lands, to make way for a gawd damned military base....and raping their grand daughters for bonus.

    They dont go to SK to destroy a fishing comunity , to ursurp their land for another gawd damned navy base,

    They certainly didnt go 3000 miles away from home to 'cleanse' Diego Garcia of its inhabitants ....to build another fucking military base.

    They bloody hell never went 3000 miles away from home to rob the American Indians, the Australian aborigines, the NZ indigenuous of their land.

    An anglo of all people chastising Chinese on 'ethnic cleansing',
    Gimme a fucking break !

    To be continued.....barring unforseen circumstances.
    , @denk

    Mao was a psychopath.....

    It is an extremely corrupt machine. The “candidates” are picked by the party and elected because they want it.'
     
    Whereas, murkka is a 'democracy' where you pick the leaders right ?
    After picking 55 psychopaths in a row and you should worry about Mao ?

    'If the people had their way the first thing they’d do would be to prosecute the party officials, and to finally remove the communist label from government.'
     
    Genius,
    may be, just maby be, the Chinese are in no hurry to dump the CCP,
    which managed to transform a 4th world dump to the world's 2nd largest economy in 70 years and lifted more people out of poverty than the world combined ?

    Presumably, YOu DO have the mean to remove your dear leaders tho ?
    When'r you gonna kick out those sobs in Washington, get someone at least half decent , someone who actually wants to improve murkkan living instead of spending all his working hours wondering which country to screw next ?

    'one child policy'.
     
    Presumbly the Chinese should ask for permission from those gawd chosen people, thats you sonny, before they could implement their population control. ?

    Do you know that it doesnt apply to minorities like Tibetans, Uighurs etc, ?
    What a strange way to 'cleanse' the Tibetans eh, those nasty Hans ?

    Did the VN, Iraqis, Cambodians, Indonesians, Yemenis ......request your help for population control by exteme means ?
    Thirty millions civilian wiped out since ww2 courtesy of the USA, thats just a very conservative estimate !

    Get real !
    Unlike that 'Mao murdered millions' canard, murkkan's holocausts on the world were well documented, verifiable and ON GOING AT THIS VERY MIN.

    Do you know, or even care how many civilians are 'wasted' by the USAF, USN, USMC just today ???

    carpenter
    'Maybe Godfree can answer why the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy.'

    grandpa charlie
    'the people of Taiwan are f*cked – just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. '
     
    Hmmm,
    USA has been murdering Yemenese, Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians .....on a daily basis.
    Your soul mates the Indians are busy shooting, raping 'insurgents' in Kashmir and Tibet, aka 'The NE'.

    But if your daily diet is the Guardian/Wapo/WarSJ etc,
    Its all about how the CCP 'persecutes' Nobel laureate Liu Xiao Bo, [what they missed out is Liu had blood on his hand as one of the ring leader in TAM, the mother of all 'color rev;] or
    How the accursed CCP oppressed 'democracy activists' in HK [of cause they never tell you those are useful idiots doing the bidding of the notorious NED'']

    You and your ilks are so proud of your 'free press', blissfully unaware that you are the captive victims of the world's most sophiscated , manipulative brain washing machine.

    hehehehehe
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  50. Wally says:
    @Anon
    "The Chinese" who like it would be limited to the ruling elite of the CCP. Everyone else hates it because they don't enjoy any personal freedoms.

    Proof of this “hate” by Chinese is where exactly?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Um, Tianenman Square.
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  51. Wally says:
    @Anon
    China is an excellent example of a majority (Han Chinese) slowly but surely imposing their language and culture on ethnic minorities, notably Uyghurs and Tibetans but also Cantonese and others.

    You should read J.S. Mill on China. For most of human history, China was the wealthiest country in the world by far. Beginning around 1700, that changed and it hasn't gone back. There's a reason for that.

    It appears Mr. Chieh has set you straight.

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  52. Wally says:
    @EdwardM
    How do you explain that Chinese people have no individual liberty? No freedom of speech or association, no independent media or civic groups, minimal freedom of religion. No protection from search and seizure or property rights or right to due process. Obviously no right to bear arms.

    You can rightly complain about erosion of these rights in the U.S., but can't compare us to China.

    Either the author's thesis is wrong because Chinese "democracy" doesn't deliver these benefits to the people in spite of their desires (which, according to the neo-cons, are universal) or else the Chinese people really don't, for the most part, value them.

    It could well be the latter. But then the premise of this article makes less sense, because the values of collectivist people like the Chinese are so different than those of the West that it's hard to meaningfully compare what each would consider democratic values.

    For another example, I lived in Qatar, which is a semi-totalitarian semi-police state in which citizens have virtually no individual rights and even less participation in governance than those in China. Yet the government line is that Qatar is "democratic" because the emir consults with the heads of the key families, who in turn consult with their members, etc., which isn't really necessary anyway since everyone would agree on what's in their best interest anyway. And they actually believe it.

    “How do you explain that Chinese people have no individual liberty? No freedom of speech or association, no independent media or civic groups, minimal freedom of religion. No protection from search and seizure or property rights or right to due process. Obviously no right to bear arms.”

    As if the US is hanging on tight to it’s liberties. Get real.

    All the Totalitarian Leftists / Zionist liars use the ‘holocau$t’ fraud as a cover.

    The ‘holocaust’ storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:

    http://codoh.com

    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

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  53. @EdwardM
    How do you explain that Chinese people have no individual liberty? No freedom of speech or association, no independent media or civic groups, minimal freedom of religion. No protection from search and seizure or property rights or right to due process. Obviously no right to bear arms.

    You can rightly complain about erosion of these rights in the U.S., but can't compare us to China.

    Either the author's thesis is wrong because Chinese "democracy" doesn't deliver these benefits to the people in spite of their desires (which, according to the neo-cons, are universal) or else the Chinese people really don't, for the most part, value them.

    It could well be the latter. But then the premise of this article makes less sense, because the values of collectivist people like the Chinese are so different than those of the West that it's hard to meaningfully compare what each would consider democratic values.

    For another example, I lived in Qatar, which is a semi-totalitarian semi-police state in which citizens have virtually no individual rights and even less participation in governance than those in China. Yet the government line is that Qatar is "democratic" because the emir consults with the heads of the key families, who in turn consult with their members, etc., which isn't really necessary anyway since everyone would agree on what's in their best interest anyway. And they actually believe it.

    What an interesting fantasy you have of China: are you sure that you haven’t confused it with North Korea?

    What’s Caixin, I wonder?Pearl River Economic Radio? And how independent is US media? They seem to have all turned together to promote trannies together. How amazingly coordinated.

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  54. @TheJester
    I can accept that the Chinese and Vietnamese have higher average IQs than northern Europeans ... and that includes me. However, by analogy, my perception of Chinese society is that it functions like a bunch of ants efficiently running their ant hill with little individual creativity and strictly defined social roles. Individual happiness be damned, the focus is on the common good for the hill regardless of the amount of individual pain that might entail. This cultural predisposition follows Chinese immigrants to the United States. I find Asian restaurants, for example, to be coldly efficient and without ambiance. I feel like I'm eating at a factory farm.

    Valuing individualism more than group dynamics, I don't think I would be comfortable living in an Oriental ant hill regardless of its virtues. I prefer Pericles to Mao.

    Han Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans do have higher average IQs than white Americans. Vietnamese do not.

    Southeast Asians are not particularly smart. Northeast Asians are.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    White Americans did outscore Vietnam in the last two PISA tests, although not by very much in 2012 (518-516). However, Vietnam still performs at about the same level as European countries.

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2015-pisa-mean-scores-in-perspective/

    Also, Southeast Asian countries like Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, and the Philippines have been doing fairly well in the International Math Olympiad in recent years.

    https://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

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  55. RodW says:

    It’s telling that there’s no poll on informational freedom.

    In Japan where I live, the media delights in showing how Chinese TV channels go black whenever a forbidden topic is touched on (typically in rebroadcasts of foreign news for example).

    My HK Chinese customers wryly tell me about the ’3 warnings’ you get if you discuss forbidden topics on Chinese social media, and what happens if you ignore the warnings (you disappear for a while). My customers also complain that they have little freedom to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

    Inside a system like this, it’s hard to take the results of any poll seriously, whether out of concern for direct coercion of respondents, or respondents’ lack of the necessary information due to censorship and propaganda. To be sure, Western media is self-censoring and propagandistic too, but the difference in degree between the West and China is nevertheless stark.

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    • Agree: Grandpa Charlie
    • Replies: @godfree Roberts
    There's no poll on informational freedom anywhere. How would you construct one?
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  56. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    "The Chinese" who like it would be limited to the ruling elite of the CCP. Everyone else hates it because they don't enjoy any personal freedoms.

    I don’t think you read the article.

    It seems like the Chinese actually do like it. Their leaders aren’t importing loads of 3rd worlders after all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    The people who have benefited enormously from capitalist reforms like it. The rest don't.
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  57. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    China is an excellent example of a majority (Han Chinese) slowly but surely imposing their language and culture on ethnic minorities, notably Uyghurs and Tibetans but also Cantonese and others.

    You should read J.S. Mill on China. For most of human history, China was the wealthiest country in the world by far. Beginning around 1700, that changed and it hasn't gone back. There's a reason for that.

    Actually, the best example of this I can think of is India.

    Since its existence India has mainly been a wide open territory. Different cultures with different languages could exist.

    But ever since the British Raj created India, Indians have tried to imitate their colonial rulers by usurping other people and cultures to consolidate control.

    This is Modi and his Hindutava, and you can see it best with the heavy hand Indians weird again the Nepalese and the Bhutanese. At least China has a pretense of a meritocracy where the people being usurped get some participation. In India it is straight up colonialization.

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  58. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    Proof of this "hate" by Chinese is where exactly?

    Um, Tianenman Square.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk

    Um, Tianenman Square.
     
    Moron,

    Have your kool aid yet ?
    Cant even spell properly,
    Tiananmen was Debunked twenty years ago !

    Try some real ones,
    GUjarag 2001 [Indian genocide on Muslims]
    Massacre of Sikhs by Hindus 1984.

    Genocide on Nagas, Manipurs, Assamese, Kashmiris...
    https://www.quora.com/Will-Nagaland-and-Manipur-get-freedom-from-India
    [Warning] XXX rating.

    Tip of an iceberg,
    Gotta go now.
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  59. @DB Cooper
    I read somewhere that to be a Chinese Communist party member at the very least you have to be at a certain top percentage in your class. So Sarah Palin type will never happen in China.

    A million graduates take the Government Service exam, guokuo, each year. The pass rate is .03%.

    No wonder Kissinger said ‘the Chinese are smarter than us’: he’d only met the .03%!

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  60. DB Cooper says:
    @Carpenter
    "Our presidents hire and fire all senior officials, secretly ban fifty thousand citizens from flying, order people kidnapped, tortured, imprisoned and assassinated and take the country to war. No Chinese leader, not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things."

    This is ridiculous BS. Mao killed millions. He sent Han Chinese to populate the western-most provinces to displace the people there. He destroyed ancient temples and mansions and monuments, and tortured people for having built businesses. He forced the country to destroy all metal tools and pots and pans to create useless steel, so that twenty millions starved to death while harvests rotted. After that he lost some power, so he sicked the Red Guardists on the realists in the party, and put millions in prison camps.

    Mao had his soldiers bring him young girls from the villages around Beijing, and raped them. He raped thousands of girls. Because he had syphilis, and thought sex with virgin girls would help him. And because he was a psychopath.

    And of course, he also ordered that families could have no more than one child each. "not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things"? Surely not! Only kill tens of millions of people, destroy the economy by decree, have tens of millions put in prison camps without a trial, and force people to only have one child!

    In other words, Godfree Roberts is again full of shit. And those polls, saying 90 percent of the people support the government's policies? Laughable, just what you'd expect in a totalitarian state. Most Chinese HATE the party. Everything said here about the party being responsive to the people is a lie. It is an extremely corrupt machine. The "candidates" are picked by the party and elected because they want it.

    If the people had their way the first thing they'd do would be to prosecute the party officials, and to finally remove the communist label from government.

    Maybe Godfree can answer why the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy.

    You have actually answer your own question already. Godfree is talking about the current state of affairs in China and you are citing things happened in China fifty years ago. China has been changing at a breakneck speed continuously for the past thirty years. The mood of a country can change rapidly, and thirty years is a long time. Imagine you are talking about the US of today and someone insist you are spewing nonsense citing things in the US fifty years ago.

    Consider that during Mao’s years food has to be rationed and bicycle is a luxury goods few can afford and last year 133 million Chinese travel overseas as tourists. With that kind of changes in such a short period of time don’t you think it is only natural that people should be pretty content and happy with their government? Here is one more statistics. Last year Chinese tourists spent a whopping $221 billions US dollars overseas, more than twice the US. More than the US, Germany and UK tourists combined.

    https://fronteranews.com/news/asia/chinese-international-tourists-now-spend-as-much-as-us-germany-and-uk-tourists-combined/

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    List this sink in a little bit. Many of the current generations are living a middle class lifestyle while their parents were living in third world poor when they were their age. Godfree's statistics seems to be right on the money.
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  61. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    I don't think you read the article.

    It seems like the Chinese actually do like it. Their leaders aren't importing loads of 3rd worlders after all.

    The people who have benefited enormously from capitalist reforms like it. The rest don’t.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    The people who have benefited enormously from capitalist reforms like it. The rest don’t.
     
    Absolutely true! Real median per-capita incomes in China have been more than doubling every decade for nearly the last forty years. During that same period, they've been almost entirely stagnant or declining in the U.S.

    https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/ChinaAmerica-GDP.jpg

    http://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    If ordinary Americans saw their incomes doubling every decade, maybe they wouldn't be complaining so much about the One Percent...
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  62. @Robert Magill
    We have once last shot to keep the US viable in the world economy. China has linked almost all of Eurasia and parts of Africa in the Belt and Road system. If the US has the vision we can be part of it. Without the effort both Americas, North and South, will dwindle into obscurity and chaos. 2017 is the last chance. see
    https://robertmagill.wordpress.com/2017/05/02/the-art-of-the-deal/

    Precisely. That’s why I wrote this piece. We need to saddle up and ride fast or, by 2049 at the latest, the USA will be irrelevant.

    Read More
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  63. @Joe Hide
    To Godfrey Roberts,
    ... Just a great article. You presented a topic I had never thought about (Comparative success / failure) of Chinese governing system vs. U.S. government. The criteria You laid out were well supported with logic and facts, over and over.
    ... the conclusion I drew was that the Chinese leaders are using population opinion based mathematical and scientific analysis in determining goals and methods to improve their people's lives.
    .... I would also like to point out that a scientifically based fairly easily implemented in the West method to reverse it's destruction, would be to demand MRI, psychological, and technologically driven identifiers of traits of psychopathy, sociopathic behavior, narcissism, sadism, and insanity in sitting and potential candidates for public office and positions of power. Even cell phone aps doing this could eventually work.
    Also, Godfrey, the article was an appropriate length. Thank You for that too.

    Thanks. I’m trying to get a real conversation going about America’s direction and China is a useful mirror…

    Read More
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  64. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper
    You have actually answer your own question already. Godfree is talking about the current state of affairs in China and you are citing things happened in China fifty years ago. China has been changing at a breakneck speed continuously for the past thirty years. The mood of a country can change rapidly, and thirty years is a long time. Imagine you are talking about the US of today and someone insist you are spewing nonsense citing things in the US fifty years ago.

    Consider that during Mao's years food has to be rationed and bicycle is a luxury goods few can afford and last year 133 million Chinese travel overseas as tourists. With that kind of changes in such a short period of time don't you think it is only natural that people should be pretty content and happy with their government? Here is one more statistics. Last year Chinese tourists spent a whopping $221 billions US dollars overseas, more than twice the US. More than the US, Germany and UK tourists combined.

    https://fronteranews.com/news/asia/chinese-international-tourists-now-spend-as-much-as-us-germany-and-uk-tourists-combined/

    List this sink in a little bit. Many of the current generations are living a middle class lifestyle while their parents were living in third world poor when they were their age. Godfree’s statistics seems to be right on the money.

    Read More
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  65. @Carpenter
    "Our presidents hire and fire all senior officials, secretly ban fifty thousand citizens from flying, order people kidnapped, tortured, imprisoned and assassinated and take the country to war. No Chinese leader, not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things."

    This is ridiculous BS. Mao killed millions. He sent Han Chinese to populate the western-most provinces to displace the people there. He destroyed ancient temples and mansions and monuments, and tortured people for having built businesses. He forced the country to destroy all metal tools and pots and pans to create useless steel, so that twenty millions starved to death while harvests rotted. After that he lost some power, so he sicked the Red Guardists on the realists in the party, and put millions in prison camps.

    Mao had his soldiers bring him young girls from the villages around Beijing, and raped them. He raped thousands of girls. Because he had syphilis, and thought sex with virgin girls would help him. And because he was a psychopath.

    And of course, he also ordered that families could have no more than one child each. "not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things"? Surely not! Only kill tens of millions of people, destroy the economy by decree, have tens of millions put in prison camps without a trial, and force people to only have one child!

    In other words, Godfree Roberts is again full of shit. And those polls, saying 90 percent of the people support the government's policies? Laughable, just what you'd expect in a totalitarian state. Most Chinese HATE the party. Everything said here about the party being responsive to the people is a lie. It is an extremely corrupt machine. The "candidates" are picked by the party and elected because they want it.

    If the people had their way the first thing they'd do would be to prosecute the party officials, and to finally remove the communist label from government.

    Maybe Godfree can answer why the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy.

    It’s true that the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy–until the CCP took over and implemented democracy there for the first time in its history. Last time I was there democracy was flourishing, even as HK was falling behind Guangzhou…

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    • Replies: @Grandpa Charlie
    Says who? Says you!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/26/hong-kong-chooses-new-leader-amid-accusations-of-china-meddling
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  66. @RodW
    It's telling that there's no poll on informational freedom.

    In Japan where I live, the media delights in showing how Chinese TV channels go black whenever a forbidden topic is touched on (typically in rebroadcasts of foreign news for example).

    My HK Chinese customers wryly tell me about the '3 warnings' you get if you discuss forbidden topics on Chinese social media, and what happens if you ignore the warnings (you disappear for a while). My customers also complain that they have little freedom to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

    Inside a system like this, it's hard to take the results of any poll seriously, whether out of concern for direct coercion of respondents, or respondents' lack of the necessary information due to censorship and propaganda. To be sure, Western media is self-censoring and propagandistic too, but the difference in degree between the West and China is nevertheless stark.

    There’s no poll on informational freedom anywhere. How would you construct one?

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    • Replies: @RodW
    How difficult would it be?
    I haven't thought very long or hard about it, but I figure that the following questions would reveal something about the state of affairs in any given country.

    Ask people what media they consume (press, TV, radio, internet, zines, social media).
    Ask what parts of it are censored or inaccessible in some way.
    Ask how closely it reflects their knowledge and view of the world.
    Ask if there are formal and informal mechanisms for suppressing information in place.
    Ask people if they know the provisions of the Regulations of the People's Republic of China on Open Government Information, and how far the provisions are applied in practice.

    Despite the growing restrictions on U.S. freedom of information, I feel certain that it would still beat China.

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  67. Ron Unz says:
    @Anon
    The people who have benefited enormously from capitalist reforms like it. The rest don't.

    The people who have benefited enormously from capitalist reforms like it. The rest don’t.

    Absolutely true! Real median per-capita incomes in China have been more than doubling every decade for nearly the last forty years. During that same period, they’ve been almost entirely stagnant or declining in the U.S.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    If ordinary Americans saw their incomes doubling every decade, maybe they wouldn’t be complaining so much about the One Percent…

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  68. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    What is the author talking about? Does he sincerely believe that the system where you get to choose between Hillary and Trump is democracy? Then he needs to see a psychiatrist.

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  69. Joe Wong says:
    @DB Cooper
    "How long before they start selling the new, improved version?"

    I am sure China couldn't care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don't have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.

    “The New Chinese World Order” produced by VPRO documentary has the following comparative analysis about the Western(Christian based) civilization and Chinese (Confucianism based) civilization.

    There’s a difference between Christianity and Confucianism. Christianity has a mission. It’s always trying to convert non-believers into Christians. People with other habits should take on the Christian ones. In China we do the opposite. Why do we say that America strives for supremacy? Because it imposes its will. American exports its own range of ideas. For example: they liberate Libya, they liberate Iraq… because they disagree with those governments. We liberate you so you can be just like us. Confucianism says that is totally wrong. Its says: You may learn from me, but I won’t force you. If you want to learn from me, I’ll teach you. If not, I’m not going to come after you. I won’t send an army to change you. Supremacy means forcing your ideas onto others. The classical Chinese model tells you to accept others as they are. That’s the difference. The US want to make other countries just like the US.

    Europeans including their offshoots are vindictive. That’s the main difference with Asians. Confucianism doesn’t allow revenge. Such vengeful feelings are very rare in Chinese culture. Many European plays, like Shakespeare’s, are about revenge. European novels are often about revenge. Like The Count of Monte Cristo. Revenge is a natural thing … but in Chinese culture you’re taught to repress that feeling. So if there’s anything that Europe can learn from China… it’s to let go of their strong culture of vindictiveness.

    It seems there is no difference in substance between the Christianity and Islam, the only difference between Christianity and Islam is superficial terms and rituals.

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    • Replies: @Escher

    Revenge is a natural thing … but in Chinese culture you’re taught to repress that feeling. So if there’s anything that Europe can learn from China… it’s to let go of their strong culture of vindictiveness.

     

    So all the massacres we read about in Chinese history never happened?
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  70. Democracy as a constitution must have a sound foundation. Sadly, this foundation is ideal in imagination but unrealistic in practice.

    Refer to https://xinchunliblog.quora.com/The-Multiple-Implications-Behind-Democracy?srid=6YnV

    Today I read an article in an article of Wall Street Journal: A World Unsafe for Democracy. A few lines:

    “The striking finding in the Freedom House Report is that the global erosion of political liberty is largely taking place in the democracies. People are losing faith in the freedoms that no longer seem to deliver on the promise of a safer, richer, fuller, fairer life.

    In some cases, long-term political polarization leads to ineffectual governance, which in turn whets the public appetite for leaders promising fast results irrespective of legal niceties. In others, a stale form of consensus politics leads to ideological polarization as mainstream parties fail to address mainstream concerns. And sometimes people fall under the sway of charismatic demagogues, discovering only too late the direction in which they are being steered.”

    I have always been wondering about why democracy doesn’t seem to work well nowadays. After reading and thinking for a while, I might have some unsolicited thoughts, which are open to any comment. It’s not to suggest that democracy is not a good social form or that problems of democracy don’t exist in communist societies.

    The premise of a well-functioning democracy is to have a well-informed and rational public base (relative, not absolute). Here I assume democracy is the one-person-one-vote type. But it’s getting extremely difficult for any country to ensure such a premise given the mess going on out there and the increasingly divisive atmosphere. Therefore, impetuous populist rage would likely overshadow coolhead national layout.
    Supplementary systems/constitutions/statutes should be carried out to prevent various democratic pitfalls, such as political deadlock, increased civil conflicts, management inefficiency, self-interest and irresponsibility towards family and society, etc. Democracy offers people more rights to pursue freedom, so at the same time people should assume more obligations accordingly. Freedom with insufficient discipline will spin out of control and is way more dangerous than no freedom at all. Things like Bombings, gun violence, money politics, racism, abortions, high divorce rate, single mothers, unemployment, poverty exist for a reason. Clearly, democracy has been doing a better job spoiling its people than teaching them responsibility and resilience.
    Crooked politicians and ruling classes covertly manipulate or lie for self-interests irrespective of general public’s needs or aspirations. Only in the name of democracy, they are essentially not different from or even worse than autocrats.
    Different parties or groups automatically assume “we”, “they”, which means that freedom of choices, in some cases, might actually give people more reasons to divide and discriminate against each other. The reason is that although democracy is well-intended for purposes such as “embracing diversity”, “eliminating differences”, in reality it’s extremely hard to realize with people getting too much freedom but little empathy and motive of compromise for the common good of all. Therefore, this could end up with unexpected political and social backfire.
    Freedom and equality are not the same word. In fact, they are often the opposite. You can’t have them both. You can just strike a balance in between. Is democracy giving people more freedom of choices or the equality of results? This is a fundamental question that deserves serious thinking because obviously there has been a lot of confusion.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Very well stated, I quite like the overall sense of humility. Very proper to us.
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  71. Joe Wong says:
    @DB Cooper
    I read somewhere that to be a Chinese Communist party member at the very least you have to be at a certain top percentage in your class. So Sarah Palin type will never happen in China.

    to be a Chinese Communist party member at the very least you have to be at a certain top percentage in your class.

    this is one of many fake news the American or those die hard cold war ideology warriors has manufactured without blinking an eye; it is just like the 100 millions of Chinese starved to death during the Great leap Forward, mind you China only had around 400 million during that time, the tanks crashed the students in the Tienanmen Square Massacre or Sadden Hussein has Weapon of Mass Destruction.

    One thing the CCP scares the most is it is hijacked by a special interest group and detached from the masses, particular its root, the peasants and workers. “a certain top percentage in your class” is a quickest way to form a special interest group and repeat the steps of all previous failed dynasties. Smart people get corrupted easiest and fastest, USA is such an example, an negative example on how not to trust smart people completely.

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  72. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    Han Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans do have higher average IQs than white Americans. Vietnamese do not.

    Southeast Asians are not particularly smart. Northeast Asians are.

    White Americans did outscore Vietnam in the last two PISA tests, although not by very much in 2012 (518-516). However, Vietnam still performs at about the same level as European countries.

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2015-pisa-mean-scores-in-perspective/

    Also, Southeast Asian countries like Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, and the Philippines have been doing fairly well in the International Math Olympiad in recent years.

    https://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

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    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    I went to the link and look at the IMO ranking this year and got Thailand ranked at 7, Vietnam ranked at 3, Singapore ranked at 7, the Philippines ranked at 17. Pretty respectable results for these countries. What stood out is India. India ranked at 52. This should explain why India is India.
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  73. Joe Wong says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am sure China couldn’t care less whether their new and improved version is adopted by other countries. They just don’t have this proselytizing culture whether religiously or politically. The West on the other hand see their political system as a religion, the democracy god.
     
    Agree and disagree. For the most part, the CCP really doesn't seem to largely care if others wish to adopt it - but that said, bits and parts of it are being adopted by various governments because it seems to work and China hasn't been opposed to supporting formulation to advise governments(some African governments come to mind) which wish to mimic it further although always with the caveats that government is always going to be different with different people. In that sense, it does feel a bit like Confucianism or past Sinoculture exports; not a great effort to evangelize, but it does seem to spread somehow.

    If the Chinese are stupid enough to subscribe to democracy then theirs will fail too. As all democracies have.
     
    The main issue is incentives. The spoils system in "liberal democracy" creates an ultimately unsustainable system where basically everyone seeks to vote themselves to get the most goodies, and is obviously going to lead to massive debts. "Chinese democracy" has a different spoils system where Party functionaries try to represent themselves as successful, verdict is still out whether it works that much better but it has a different dynamic.

    For example, in the US, you might have black students feel that they are discriminated against and agitate for more representation or resources. In China, if Muslim students felt discriminated against and complained enough that it was noticed by the panopticon, a Party member responsible for the university might argue with others in a meeting to give them more halal foods, prayer rooms, etc. If it all works out, and the happy Muslims now provide greater value, the Party member gets rewarded in the future.

    It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how this can go wrong(every province competes against each other in a hostile manner), but it does divorce the spoils system one step away from the mass beneficiaries, hopefully being a moderating effect.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen’s three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people.
     

    One cannot deny that Sun Yat's China has been accomplished by the Communist Party: the rails, the ports, and industry. At the end of his life, he did say that the future of China was tied with the future of the CCP. For better or worse, he knew the reality of things to come.

    If he is the nominal Father of China, the CCP has been dutiful and has fulfilled his demands.


    I doubt that they ask “informed public” in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question.
     
    Depends on what you mean. They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn't an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo.

    There's a range of political views and an Overton Window in China as well, for what it is worth. Complaining about the government is a pastime, not too different from here.


    83% feel the government is run for their benefit. 92% of the population is Han. Probably not a coincidence.
     
    China is not ethno-nationalist, it is an empire with land borders and is not Japan. It does have more freedom of association but thousands of years of Confucianism has always been about meritocracy, and less about ethnicity.

    The sense that anyone can prove himself through virtue is a hallmark of this thinking.

    What you can't be is Dr. Daniel A Bell, a white resident of China who constantly demands that China increase gay rights, female participation in government, etc and then complains about being excluded even though he wears Confucian garb. Ah, well, you see, trying to pozz a culture isn't eagerly welcomed. He's probably being treated nicer than if he was born Han.

    And yet in typical Confucian deference, despite how annoying he is, they still let him do what he wants and give him respect because he is a Tsinghua professor. That's supposed to mean something. Unfortunately, you can see how this can be a vector for pozz.

    Sun Yat-sen is his full name, Sun is his surname or family name, Yat-sen is his (first) name, you can call him Mr. Sun or Yat-sen, calling him Sun Yat is simply showing you are uneducated.

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  74. @Daniel Chieh
    Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore. They were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die.

    What resistance? Its all dead men walking.

    The spirit is dead. The body will catch up shortly.

    “Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore [in terms of the legacy of Sun Yat-sen]. They [the KMT?] were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die.” — Daniel Chieh

    Thank you for concise view of what’s going on with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I guess that’s why we hear almost nothing out of there anymore. Very buttoned up. But, you know:

    “According to governmental statistics, over 95% of the Republic of China’s population is now made up of Han Chinese” — wikipedia article Demographics of Taiwan

    … so what I would think is that the people are desperately trying to find a way out of Kissinger’s 1971 bargain that gave Taiwan to the PRC, along with China’s permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Also, they appear to be trying to attract some loyalty to the Taipei government, from whatever source. Also, they probably miscalculated that Hillary would win in 2016. All-in-all, I get the picture: the people of Taiwan are f*cked – just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. C’est la guerre!

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Its understandable why they were frustrated with the KMT but they really have no other vision of their own. If you visit Taiwan, the decline in infrastructure is pretty obvious - they've been struggling. Hong Kong would have a better argument for independence in some ways: they can imagine themselves as a Singapore.

    Taiwan is just in a terrible spot these days and the politics, from my perspective, is very weird. Its akin to observing university politics: a lot of fire and energy for matters of amazingly little importance.

    One ancedote: there's a friend of my family who keeps trying to get his daughter to stay in Taiwan(or go to the US), but she chooses to work instead in China. While it might be politically safer by some imaginary margin to be in freer states, she would rather take the 90k and perhaps there's something about the culture that appeals to her. Taiwan is seen as place where you can go and retire, a boring place.
    , @Joe Wong
    The people of Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Cuba, and another 140 nations/places are f'*cked by the do-no-good Americans and their thuggish minions who call bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated phantom WMD allegation not war crimes, crimes against humanity or crimes against peace but humanitarian intervention, and it is necessary good.

    C’est la guerre! what else does the American know? They are f*cked up.
    , @denk

    '. All-in-all, I get the picture: the people of Taiwan are f*cked – just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. C’est la guerre!'
     
    No way honey .!
    There aint no PLA barracks in TW !
    Try Okinawa, it has been fucked, literally, for over 70 years by uncle sham.

    You should see how HKers gaped at the Liaoning with awe. !
    For the majority, Those NED sponsored 'freedom fighters' are just a bunch of dumb fucks still wet behind their ears, puppets dancing to the tunes from fukus. .[0]

    You got it right on Tibet tho, bingo. !
    It has been fucked, literally for over 70 years by.....your Indian soul mates !

    Ladies and gentlemen.....
    Welcome to the other Tibet,

    THE TIBET THAT NOBODY WANNA TALK ABOUT !
    [1]


    Does she look like Indian ?

    'Manorama was a 32 year old Manipuri woman, who was picked up from her house in early July by soldiers for being a ‘suspected insurgent’ and later found dead. Autopsy reports showed she had been shot at close range and that too several times through her genitals- an obvious attempt to fudge any investigation of rape'

    [0]
    fukus = fuck uk +us.

    [1]
    No kidding !
    most of so-callled INdia's 'NorthEast' was carved out from Southern Tibet proper, courtesy of the Brits.
    Now you know why they dont look like Indians !
    India, aka 'the world's largest democracy' has been raping it with random, no,
    sadism.
    , @denk

    the people of the DPRK are fucked, C’est la guerre!
     
    And the rapists is......the UsualSuspect

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-versus-the-united-states-who-are-the-demons/28342
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  75. @Astuteobservor II

    Now, suppose that you would run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)!
     
    by this statement I take it you have some thoughts on the matter? care to share it? or was it all just hot air?

    No, AstuteObserver II, I have no preconception of what the results would be if the authors of the article would “run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)” I just think the results would be interesting. I believe that the people of Taiwan went though many pitched battles with the KMT to establish their version of democratic institutions. The only thing like that in history of the PRC would, I believe, be Tiananmen Suuare in 1989 – so no prolonged struggle to establish democratic institutions. Imo, democracy requires a continuing struggle between the people and the government.

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  76. DB Cooper says:
    @anonymous
    White Americans did outscore Vietnam in the last two PISA tests, although not by very much in 2012 (518-516). However, Vietnam still performs at about the same level as European countries.

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2015-pisa-mean-scores-in-perspective/

    Also, Southeast Asian countries like Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, and the Philippines have been doing fairly well in the International Math Olympiad in recent years.

    https://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

    I went to the link and look at the IMO ranking this year and got Thailand ranked at 7, Vietnam ranked at 3, Singapore ranked at 7, the Philippines ranked at 17. Pretty respectable results for these countries. What stood out is India. India ranked at 52. This should explain why India is India.

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  77. @godfree Roberts
    It's true that the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy–until the CCP took over and implemented democracy there for the first time in its history. Last time I was there democracy was flourishing, even as HK was falling behind Guangzhou...
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  78. RodW says:
    @godfree Roberts
    There's no poll on informational freedom anywhere. How would you construct one?

    How difficult would it be?
    I haven’t thought very long or hard about it, but I figure that the following questions would reveal something about the state of affairs in any given country.

    Ask people what media they consume (press, TV, radio, internet, zines, social media).
    Ask what parts of it are censored or inaccessible in some way.
    Ask how closely it reflects their knowledge and view of the world.
    Ask if there are formal and informal mechanisms for suppressing information in place.
    Ask people if they know the provisions of the Regulations of the People’s Republic of China on Open Government Information, and how far the provisions are applied in practice.

    Despite the growing restrictions on U.S. freedom of information, I feel certain that it would still beat China.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Pretty much there is not that much of a difference between censorship in America and China.

    There is more freedom and transparency in America, but we are not talking about much.

    The big difference is that China is more open about censorship, while America is more sly.
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  79. Escher says:
    @Joe Wong
    “The New Chinese World Order” produced by VPRO documentary has the following comparative analysis about the Western(Christian based) civilization and Chinese (Confucianism based) civilization.

    There’s a difference between Christianity and Confucianism. Christianity has a mission. It’s always trying to convert non-believers into Christians. People with other habits should take on the Christian ones. In China we do the opposite. Why do we say that America strives for supremacy? Because it imposes its will. American exports its own range of ideas. For example: they liberate Libya, they liberate Iraq... because they disagree with those governments. We liberate you so you can be just like us. Confucianism says that is totally wrong. Its says: You may learn from me, but I won’t force you. If you want to learn from me, I’ll teach you. If not, I’m not going to come after you. I won’t send an army to change you. Supremacy means forcing your ideas onto others. The classical Chinese model tells you to accept others as they are. That’s the difference. The US want to make other countries just like the US.

    Europeans including their offshoots are vindictive. That’s the main difference with Asians. Confucianism doesn’t allow revenge. Such vengeful feelings are very rare in Chinese culture. Many European plays, like Shakespeare’s, are about revenge. European novels are often about revenge. Like The Count of Monte Cristo. Revenge is a natural thing ... but in Chinese culture you’re taught to repress that feeling. So if there’s anything that Europe can learn from China... it’s to let go of their strong culture of vindictiveness.

    It seems there is no difference in substance between the Christianity and Islam, the only difference between Christianity and Islam is superficial terms and rituals.

    Revenge is a natural thing … but in Chinese culture you’re taught to repress that feeling. So if there’s anything that Europe can learn from China… it’s to let go of their strong culture of vindictiveness.

    So all the massacres we read about in Chinese history never happened?

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Burning people on the stick on the allegations of twisted facts should be a thing in the past of dark age of Inquisition not nowadays of scientific reasoning. Perhaps I misunderstood the European and their offshoots completely.

    Please let go your strong culture of vindictiveness, then you can find the truth in the passage.

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  80. Escher says:
    @DB Cooper
    There is no corruption in the US because corruption has been institutionalized called lobbying. Lobbying, either by domestic groups or foreign entities/governments is probably a unique American feature among the democracies in the world.

    Lobbying and the revolving door between government and private company boards.

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  81. John Pilger says: • Website

    Thanks, Godfree Roberts, for your bracing, provocative, important piece. Returning to China after many years, I was struck by our willful ignorance of China in the West.

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  82. Joe Wong says:
    @Escher

    Revenge is a natural thing … but in Chinese culture you’re taught to repress that feeling. So if there’s anything that Europe can learn from China… it’s to let go of their strong culture of vindictiveness.

     

    So all the massacres we read about in Chinese history never happened?

    Burning people on the stick on the allegations of twisted facts should be a thing in the past of dark age of Inquisition not nowadays of scientific reasoning. Perhaps I misunderstood the European and their offshoots completely.

    Please let go your strong culture of vindictiveness, then you can find the truth in the passage.

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  83. Joe Wong says:
    @Grandpa Charlie
    Now, suppose that you would run score cards comparing the PRC with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I mean, really, by comparing with USA, as we have become, sets a very low bar, does it not? Or compare the DPRK with the ROK?

    A problem in the methodology is that the government of the PRC may often be a reason why other nations do not have any chance to score well against China. E.g., I believe that the New China (PRC) took over the old China lobby after Kissinger's trip to Beijing in 1971. Now, about half a century later, agents of the PRC undoubtedly control "our" neocons. Of course, China has to share that control/influence with Isreali/Zionist lobby. In any case, our problem with bribery in renminbi is really entirely our problem. China has their corruption problem, that's for sure. And we have our corruption problem ... and that is our problem, not theirs

    It's like this: we (US) is like the Chinese Empire was in its decline and fall. Corruption is everywhere, and it's all for sale. We know that, but then we excuse it as "globalism" ... which is necessary or even "good" or anyway it's too late to turn it around.

    Democracy is one of Sun Yat-sen's three principles of the people: nationalism, democracy and the welfare (or livelihood) of the people. (Note that it isn't "globalism, democracy, etc."!) According to Wikipedia: Sun Yat-sen believed that the economic livelihood of the people depended on adopting the teachings of the American economist Henry George, writing that "The teachings of your single-taxer, Henry George, will be the basis of our program of reform." It's reported that Taiwan today has a single-tax land tax as the basis of its system of taxation. Many believe that that is the only way to prevent cyclic real estate crashes, and it's interesting that the PRC (mainland China) has experienced real estate bubbles and crashes, although the worst aspects of the crashes may have been avoided by government banking interventions.

    The problem with all of this is: what about Hong Kong? I have it from Chinese people in this country (USA) that there is at this time no chance of actual effective reunification of Taiwan into the PRC for just one reason: the experience of the freedom-loving people of Hong Kong. So, the people of Taiwan look at Hong Kong and see that Beijing could never be trusted to keep its word in regards to honoring the now-traditional ways of democracy that have developed in Taiwan (at heavy cost to freedom-loving Chinese over the years). Carter Center and all, I wonder about these polls and how accurate they really are. True, I don't live in China and never have .... but what I hear is nobody trusts the elite. The "Edelman Trust barometer"? I doubt that they ask "informed public" in China if they trust the ruling elite of the CCP. Most likely, nobody in China would appreciate being asked that question. But maybe I'm wrong about that. As an octogenarian, I certainly do remember many years when the American people trusted their government over 90%, for sure - except probably for African-Americans or, as they were known back then, "colored people." And that brings us to one final quibble: did Edelman do their survey throughout all of China, like in Tibet?

    For sure, we are now enduring our cultural revolution much more than we did even in the hay days of the 60s. And, for sure, we are, in many ways, at our nadir. But who knows? Maybe we have a long ways to fall yet.

    You should know God creates human beings with a cautious mind by limiting how long they can live, so the old rotten and diehard ones can die off and let the new ones have a chance to grow and rejuvenate the species.

    People with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by the zero-sum cold war mentality are definitely belonging to those old rotten and diehard ones that need to die off, so they won’t drag us in the dark age of old days of colonialism and zero-sum cold war with endless fake news and wars forever.

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  84. @Grandpa Charlie

    "Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore [in terms of the legacy of Sun Yat-sen]. They [the KMT?] were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die." -- Daniel Chieh
     
    Thank you for concise view of what's going on with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I guess that's why we hear almost nothing out of there anymore. Very buttoned up. But, you know:

    "According to governmental statistics, over 95% of the Republic of China's population is now made up of Han Chinese" -- wikipedia article Demographics of Taiwan
     
    ... so what I would think is that the people are desperately trying to find a way out of Kissinger's 1971 bargain that gave Taiwan to the PRC, along with China's permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Also, they appear to be trying to attract some loyalty to the Taipei government, from whatever source. Also, they probably miscalculated that Hillary would win in 2016. All-in-all, I get the picture: the people of Taiwan are f*cked - just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. C'est la guerre!

    Its understandable why they were frustrated with the KMT but they really have no other vision of their own. If you visit Taiwan, the decline in infrastructure is pretty obvious – they’ve been struggling. Hong Kong would have a better argument for independence in some ways: they can imagine themselves as a Singapore.

    Taiwan is just in a terrible spot these days and the politics, from my perspective, is very weird. Its akin to observing university politics: a lot of fire and energy for matters of amazingly little importance.

    One ancedote: there’s a friend of my family who keeps trying to get his daughter to stay in Taiwan(or go to the US), but she chooses to work instead in China. While it might be politically safer by some imaginary margin to be in freer states, she would rather take the 90k and perhaps there’s something about the culture that appeals to her. Taiwan is seen as place where you can go and retire, a boring place.

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    HK pro-democracy activists/separatists are no Singaporean by a far margin. Singaporean at least is sensible enough to know they should not hate Malaysian blindly like the hostility those HK pro-democracy activists/separatists shown towards China. Singaporean knows their survival and prosperity depends on having a good relationship with Malaysia otherwise they won't even have enough water to drink not to mention they would be in a hell of fire within a couple of hours if Malaysia was as military powerful as China, but HK pro-democracy activists/separatists are completely void of Singaporean basic sensibility.

    HK pro-democracy activists/separatists are mentally colonized WASP wannabes, they miss the superior feeling when they were under the British colonial rule despite the British colonial rule was an iron fist, non-democratic authoritative, feudal and corrupted political system; they are completely brain washed by the CIA, MI6 and NED sponsored NGOs, they believe that undermining and destabilizing HK under the order of foreign political interest cabals is their honor and duty.

    HK pro-democracy activists/separatists lied relentlessly, they took grafts shamelessly, they broke laws irresponsibly, destroyed social orders with violent riots, and they undermined HK's existing democratic system and institutions using mob and thug politics.

    HK pro-democracy activists/separatists are the destroyers of HK's path to real democracy under the guidance of CIA, MI6 and NED sponsored NGOs because those foreign political interest cabals cannot let China demonstrate there is an alternative to the Western way of life and world order.
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  85. @Xinchun Li
    Democracy as a constitution must have a sound foundation. Sadly, this foundation is ideal in imagination but unrealistic in practice.

    Refer to https://xinchunliblog.quora.com/The-Multiple-Implications-Behind-Democracy?srid=6YnV

    Today I read an article in an article of Wall Street Journal: A World Unsafe for Democracy. A few lines:

    "The striking finding in the Freedom House Report is that the global erosion of political liberty is largely taking place in the democracies. People are losing faith in the freedoms that no longer seem to deliver on the promise of a safer, richer, fuller, fairer life.

    In some cases, long-term political polarization leads to ineffectual governance, which in turn whets the public appetite for leaders promising fast results irrespective of legal niceties. In others, a stale form of consensus politics leads to ideological polarization as mainstream parties fail to address mainstream concerns. And sometimes people fall under the sway of charismatic demagogues, discovering only too late the direction in which they are being steered."

    I have always been wondering about why democracy doesn’t seem to work well nowadays. After reading and thinking for a while, I might have some unsolicited thoughts, which are open to any comment. It’s not to suggest that democracy is not a good social form or that problems of democracy don’t exist in communist societies.

    The premise of a well-functioning democracy is to have a well-informed and rational public base (relative, not absolute). Here I assume democracy is the one-person-one-vote type. But it’s getting extremely difficult for any country to ensure such a premise given the mess going on out there and the increasingly divisive atmosphere. Therefore, impetuous populist rage would likely overshadow coolhead national layout.
    Supplementary systems/constitutions/statutes should be carried out to prevent various democratic pitfalls, such as political deadlock, increased civil conflicts, management inefficiency, self-interest and irresponsibility towards family and society, etc. Democracy offers people more rights to pursue freedom, so at the same time people should assume more obligations accordingly. Freedom with insufficient discipline will spin out of control and is way more dangerous than no freedom at all. Things like Bombings, gun violence, money politics, racism, abortions, high divorce rate, single mothers, unemployment, poverty exist for a reason. Clearly, democracy has been doing a better job spoiling its people than teaching them responsibility and resilience.
    Crooked politicians and ruling classes covertly manipulate or lie for self-interests irrespective of general public’s needs or aspirations. Only in the name of democracy, they are essentially not different from or even worse than autocrats.
    Different parties or groups automatically assume “we”, “they”, which means that freedom of choices, in some cases, might actually give people more reasons to divide and discriminate against each other. The reason is that although democracy is well-intended for purposes such as “embracing diversity”, “eliminating differences”, in reality it’s extremely hard to realize with people getting too much freedom but little empathy and motive of compromise for the common good of all. Therefore, this could end up with unexpected political and social backfire.
    Freedom and equality are not the same word. In fact, they are often the opposite. You can’t have them both. You can just strike a balance in between. Is democracy giving people more freedom of choices or the equality of results? This is a fundamental question that deserves serious thinking because obviously there has been a lot of confusion.

    Very well stated, I quite like the overall sense of humility. Very proper to us.

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  86. @Westernerer
    China is facing a huge problem with automation for example. Hundreds of millions people there rely on manufacturing for their salary. Let's say you make plastic toys sold in the US. If an American, automated toy factory opens, that Chinese person will suffer two-fold. First, he will lose his job. Second, none of that toy money ends up in Chinese public domain.

    This death of factory labour happened in just decades in the US, and if it happens in China the consequences would be far more devastating. I can't see how high population serves as an advantage then. And the age of states is long gone: the kind of unconditional loyalty to one's state doesn't exist anymore - private interests run this world. The CCP just happens to function like a conglomerate. But if things go south, Chinese society will start cracking just like the American and European have.

    No country needs 1 billion engineers, so what exactly are these people supposed to do? I think China is a ticking time bomb, but everyone is riding a gravy train now, so nobody really cares.

    Classic ludite fallacy

    If you invent a machine that screws in screws, the unemployed screw screwers will get new jobs doing something else.

    When the automation hits, robots will do all the manual labor while new jobs will spring up

    New jobs have already sprung up, the rich have full time people that work planning their vacations, activities and instagram shoots and full time photographers following them around for instagram, they are buying mega weddings which requires massive staffs and years of planning.

    China is actually set to weather this storm because of a high average iq and cultral attitudes towards work

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes. This is key.

    Having a high iq plus cultural attitude towards work.

    I would also add that not having a welfare state and not having blacks who think they are owed reparations is a huge plus for them too.

    You can go on and on here. Being an export oriented country, automation will only help them.
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  87. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @RodW
    How difficult would it be?
    I haven't thought very long or hard about it, but I figure that the following questions would reveal something about the state of affairs in any given country.

    Ask people what media they consume (press, TV, radio, internet, zines, social media).
    Ask what parts of it are censored or inaccessible in some way.
    Ask how closely it reflects their knowledge and view of the world.
    Ask if there are formal and informal mechanisms for suppressing information in place.
    Ask people if they know the provisions of the Regulations of the People's Republic of China on Open Government Information, and how far the provisions are applied in practice.

    Despite the growing restrictions on U.S. freedom of information, I feel certain that it would still beat China.

    Pretty much there is not that much of a difference between censorship in America and China.

    There is more freedom and transparency in America, but we are not talking about much.

    The big difference is that China is more open about censorship, while America is more sly.

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  88. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Hbd investor
    Classic ludite fallacy

    If you invent a machine that screws in screws, the unemployed screw screwers will get new jobs doing something else.

    When the automation hits, robots will do all the manual labor while new jobs will spring up

    New jobs have already sprung up, the rich have full time people that work planning their vacations, activities and instagram shoots and full time photographers following them around for instagram, they are buying mega weddings which requires massive staffs and years of planning.

    China is actually set to weather this storm because of a high average iq and cultral attitudes towards work

    Yes. This is key.

    Having a high iq plus cultural attitude towards work.

    I would also add that not having a welfare state and not having blacks who think they are owed reparations is a huge plus for them too.

    You can go on and on here. Being an export oriented country, automation will only help them.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    actually, with automation, every country will need to become a welfare state of sorts. there will be no new jobs to replace the old. it is why UBI has such strong arguments in the automation community. as a very strong, positive side affect, UBI will also give people who wants to get out of the current welfare trap, the ability to do so.
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  89. @Anonymous
    Yes. This is key.

    Having a high iq plus cultural attitude towards work.

    I would also add that not having a welfare state and not having blacks who think they are owed reparations is a huge plus for them too.

    You can go on and on here. Being an export oriented country, automation will only help them.

    actually, with automation, every country will need to become a welfare state of sorts. there will be no new jobs to replace the old. it is why UBI has such strong arguments in the automation community. as a very strong, positive side affect, UBI will also give people who wants to get out of the current welfare trap, the ability to do so.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Hopes and fears of automation are both overblown. Automation will replace some jobs but it seems that a hybrid involving human brains will remain with us for some time; for example, it was found that chess players aided by an machine learning database outperformed both chess playing AI as well as human grandmasters.
    , @Hbd investor
    Humans will always strive for status

    We are already seeing it with the wealthy elite spending truckloads of cash for experiences

    Spending rises as income rises.

    The wealthy are spending their money on more and more glamorous theme parties weddings with professional actors, professional performers, professionally made costumes

    They are spending it on personalized indie movies that will never turn a profit.

    There will be no UBI, as the wealthy gets rich from automation, they will spend their money on more personalized stuff.

    In the far future we could see the rich dropping 100 million to make a movie that they want to see and will be surefire box office loss.

    In the end everyone will be better off we will have more stuff due to automation, and we would have more media
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  90. @Astuteobservor II
    actually, with automation, every country will need to become a welfare state of sorts. there will be no new jobs to replace the old. it is why UBI has such strong arguments in the automation community. as a very strong, positive side affect, UBI will also give people who wants to get out of the current welfare trap, the ability to do so.

    Hopes and fears of automation are both overblown. Automation will replace some jobs but it seems that a hybrid involving human brains will remain with us for some time; for example, it was found that chess players aided by an machine learning database outperformed both chess playing AI as well as human grandmasters.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    no need for hopes or fears. I am just looking at data. the moment a self driving truck becomes a reality that is 3 million jobs gone in the usa alone. once it matures from all the data from self driving trucks, taxi drivers will be next. than you have ships, later on planes. automated drones doing deliveries for online shopping. yea, I can see it now. that is just a single segment of the job market. prepare for the future, or it will kill any country/economy.
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  91. @Astuteobservor II
    actually, with automation, every country will need to become a welfare state of sorts. there will be no new jobs to replace the old. it is why UBI has such strong arguments in the automation community. as a very strong, positive side affect, UBI will also give people who wants to get out of the current welfare trap, the ability to do so.

    Humans will always strive for status

    We are already seeing it with the wealthy elite spending truckloads of cash for experiences

    Spending rises as income rises.

    The wealthy are spending their money on more and more glamorous theme parties weddings with professional actors, professional performers, professionally made costumes

    They are spending it on personalized indie movies that will never turn a profit.

    There will be no UBI, as the wealthy gets rich from automation, they will spend their money on more personalized stuff.

    In the far future we could see the rich dropping 100 million to make a movie that they want to see and will be surefire box office loss.

    In the end everyone will be better off we will have more stuff due to automation, and we would have more media

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    your comment read like a fantasy, another version of the much hated 1980s "trickle down crap" boasted by economists of the reagan presidency.

    it didn't work, it will not work.
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  92. @Daniel Chieh
    Hopes and fears of automation are both overblown. Automation will replace some jobs but it seems that a hybrid involving human brains will remain with us for some time; for example, it was found that chess players aided by an machine learning database outperformed both chess playing AI as well as human grandmasters.

    no need for hopes or fears. I am just looking at data. the moment a self driving truck becomes a reality that is 3 million jobs gone in the usa alone. once it matures from all the data from self driving trucks, taxi drivers will be next. than you have ships, later on planes. automated drones doing deliveries for online shopping. yea, I can see it now. that is just a single segment of the job market. prepare for the future, or it will kill any country/economy.

    Read More
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  93. @Hbd investor
    Humans will always strive for status

    We are already seeing it with the wealthy elite spending truckloads of cash for experiences

    Spending rises as income rises.

    The wealthy are spending their money on more and more glamorous theme parties weddings with professional actors, professional performers, professionally made costumes

    They are spending it on personalized indie movies that will never turn a profit.

    There will be no UBI, as the wealthy gets rich from automation, they will spend their money on more personalized stuff.

    In the far future we could see the rich dropping 100 million to make a movie that they want to see and will be surefire box office loss.

    In the end everyone will be better off we will have more stuff due to automation, and we would have more media

    your comment read like a fantasy, another version of the much hated 1980s “trickle down crap” boasted by economists of the reagan presidency.

    it didn’t work, it will not work.

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  94. TheJester says:
    @Biff
    Very interesting(common) observation, and for the most part wrong. As a white cracker married to an Asian Chinese woman, it takes quite a while before you can see the forest through the trees. Asians are very tied to old cultures and traditions, and it is here in the west where we feel the need to social engineer behavior, and much of that through litigation.

    Please reread the article we are commenting on. It describes ants living in an ant hill … you know, the Mandate from Heaven thing paired with the felt need for perfect social harmony. Only ants would understand this.

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    China is the world largest outbound tourist nation, China is the largest luxury goods import nation, China is the world largest trading nation, China is one of the largest outbound FDI nations, China is the world's engine moving humanity into next phase of prosperity,...

    It seems you are very jealous, resentful and fearful of Chinese achievements which will render the West as a sidebar in the world stage, and make the last few centuries as another dark age of exploitation, ideological suppression, disrespect of human lives by industrial scale mass murderering wars and lethal killing machines, global wide inequality, toxic GMO that will distort or exterminate not only human beings but all living creatures for good,.. In the history.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    This is not how the Mandate of Heaven works.

    Biff's quite correct. Its much more complex than it seems. Appearance and reality are distinct.
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  95. utu says:

    Europeans including their offshoots are vindictive. That’s the main difference with Asians. Confucianism doesn’t allow revenge.

    Clearly there are differences between the cultures. But when they meet and go into the conflict the friction will occur on the lowest common denominator where the alleged lack of vindictiveness might be a disadvantage. I am pretty sure that China is doing everything to reduce the friction and put off the potential conflict further into the future. And I do not think that West wants the conflict either. The greatest chance for the Western elites, the ones that rule the Western world in “defeating” China, is to co-opt the Chinese elites and make them betray the interests of common Chinese people. Who will benefit more from the mixed marriages? Who will infiltrate whom? Chinese pose the greatest threat to Jewish supremacy over the Western world. Will they become Chinese or will Chinese become Jewish?

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  96. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    China tried democracy. It was short-lived and didn’t work out too well. The democratic-elected president Yuan, sick and tired of all of the political bickering, infighting, and impasses and drunk from his own ambition, declared himself emperor. Anti-Yuan revolutionaries immediately started. War broke out and the warlords ruled different parts of China. More wars followed, with the KMT and the Communist party(CPC) left being the major players. Japan invaded. the KMT and the CPC declared truce with each other and fought the Japanese. 8-year war with Japan. Over 20 million Chinese died. WWII ended; Japan surrendered. 4 more years of civil war between KMT and CPC. Millions more died.

    Mao adopted the Soviet’s political and economic system. In the economic collectivism reform, the great Leap Forward, and the Culture Revolution, millions more people died. Basically from 1913 to 1979, the year Deng Xiaoping started the economic reform, China didn’t have any resemblance of political stability. If Chinese learned anything from the modern history, they would have to walk their own path. They couldn’t simply copy what the US or the USSR was doing. They would have to come up with a system that would work for them.

    The Chinese model (political and economic system) is not exportable. Maybe the only country can adopt it is Vietnam. (because of the Confucianism and Communism influence and other similarities). Vietnam has been sending its officials to China to study how the Chinese run their government. Maybe Vietnam can make it work as well.

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Yuan Shikai was never a democratically elected president. You have learnt too much fake news about China, now you are spewing out fake news Chinese history like a matter fact, it shows how much the American/West knows about China.
    , @Daniel Chieh


    The Chinese model (political and economic system) is not exportable. Maybe the only country can adopt it is Vietnam.

     

    Mostly agreed, and it should be noted, Vietnam hasn't had a lot of success trying to copy it. As Mr. Karlin might say, its very cargo culty - it often feels like they try to imitate parts of it without fully understanding it: i.e. the examinations are only going to work if you are actually going to takes it seriously, not use it as an excuse to promote your friends and family. A lot of countries seem to just stumble into kleptocracies no matter what they appear to be trying to do.

    I think that some parts of the Sino model certainly seem exportable, even in the 1700s Voltaire was writing admiring of the civil service examinations.
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  97. Joe Wong says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Its understandable why they were frustrated with the KMT but they really have no other vision of their own. If you visit Taiwan, the decline in infrastructure is pretty obvious - they've been struggling. Hong Kong would have a better argument for independence in some ways: they can imagine themselves as a Singapore.

    Taiwan is just in a terrible spot these days and the politics, from my perspective, is very weird. Its akin to observing university politics: a lot of fire and energy for matters of amazingly little importance.

    One ancedote: there's a friend of my family who keeps trying to get his daughter to stay in Taiwan(or go to the US), but she chooses to work instead in China. While it might be politically safer by some imaginary margin to be in freer states, she would rather take the 90k and perhaps there's something about the culture that appeals to her. Taiwan is seen as place where you can go and retire, a boring place.

    HK pro-democracy activists/separatists are no Singaporean by a far margin. Singaporean at least is sensible enough to know they should not hate Malaysian blindly like the hostility those HK pro-democracy activists/separatists shown towards China. Singaporean knows their survival and prosperity depends on having a good relationship with Malaysia otherwise they won’t even have enough water to drink not to mention they would be in a hell of fire within a couple of hours if Malaysia was as military powerful as China, but HK pro-democracy activists/separatists are completely void of Singaporean basic sensibility.

    HK pro-democracy activists/separatists are mentally colonized WASP wannabes, they miss the superior feeling when they were under the British colonial rule despite the British colonial rule was an iron fist, non-democratic authoritative, feudal and corrupted political system; they are completely brain washed by the CIA, MI6 and NED sponsored NGOs, they believe that undermining and destabilizing HK under the order of foreign political interest cabals is their honor and duty.

    HK pro-democracy activists/separatists lied relentlessly, they took grafts shamelessly, they broke laws irresponsibly, destroyed social orders with violent riots, and they undermined HK’s existing democratic system and institutions using mob and thug politics.

    HK pro-democracy activists/separatists are the destroyers of HK’s path to real democracy under the guidance of CIA, MI6 and NED sponsored NGOs because those foreign political interest cabals cannot let China demonstrate there is an alternative to the Western way of life and world order.

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  98. Joe Wong says:
    @Anon
    China tried democracy. It was short-lived and didn't work out too well. The democratic-elected president Yuan, sick and tired of all of the political bickering, infighting, and impasses and drunk from his own ambition, declared himself emperor. Anti-Yuan revolutionaries immediately started. War broke out and the warlords ruled different parts of China. More wars followed, with the KMT and the Communist party(CPC) left being the major players. Japan invaded. the KMT and the CPC declared truce with each other and fought the Japanese. 8-year war with Japan. Over 20 million Chinese died. WWII ended; Japan surrendered. 4 more years of civil war between KMT and CPC. Millions more died.

    Mao adopted the Soviet's political and economic system. In the economic collectivism reform, the great Leap Forward, and the Culture Revolution, millions more people died. Basically from 1913 to 1979, the year Deng Xiaoping started the economic reform, China didn't have any resemblance of political stability. If Chinese learned anything from the modern history, they would have to walk their own path. They couldn't simply copy what the US or the USSR was doing. They would have to come up with a system that would work for them.

    The Chinese model (political and economic system) is not exportable. Maybe the only country can adopt it is Vietnam. (because of the Confucianism and Communism influence and other similarities). Vietnam has been sending its officials to China to study how the Chinese run their government. Maybe Vietnam can make it work as well.

    Yuan Shikai was never a democratically elected president. You have learnt too much fake news about China, now you are spewing out fake news Chinese history like a matter fact, it shows how much the American/West knows about China.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Sure he was. Yuan Shikai was elected by the Nanjing Provisional Senate on 14 February 1912, and the KMT, Yuan's main political opponent, won many seats in the elections. Song Jiaoren of the KMT was about to becoming the Prime Minister before he was assassinated.
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  99. Joe Wong says:
    @Grandpa Charlie

    "Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore [in terms of the legacy of Sun Yat-sen]. They [the KMT?] were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die." -- Daniel Chieh
     
    Thank you for concise view of what's going on with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I guess that's why we hear almost nothing out of there anymore. Very buttoned up. But, you know:

    "According to governmental statistics, over 95% of the Republic of China's population is now made up of Han Chinese" -- wikipedia article Demographics of Taiwan
     
    ... so what I would think is that the people are desperately trying to find a way out of Kissinger's 1971 bargain that gave Taiwan to the PRC, along with China's permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Also, they appear to be trying to attract some loyalty to the Taipei government, from whatever source. Also, they probably miscalculated that Hillary would win in 2016. All-in-all, I get the picture: the people of Taiwan are f*cked - just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. C'est la guerre!

    The people of Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Cuba, and another 140 nations/places are f’*cked by the do-no-good Americans and their thuggish minions who call bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated phantom WMD allegation not war crimes, crimes against humanity or crimes against peace but humanitarian intervention, and it is necessary good.

    C’est la guerre! what else does the American know? They are f*cked up.

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  100. denk says:
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  101. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Joe Wong
    Yuan Shikai was never a democratically elected president. You have learnt too much fake news about China, now you are spewing out fake news Chinese history like a matter fact, it shows how much the American/West knows about China.

    Sure he was. Yuan Shikai was elected by the Nanjing Provisional Senate on 14 February 1912, and the KMT, Yuan’s main political opponent, won many seats in the elections. Song Jiaoren of the KMT was about to becoming the Prime Minister before he was assassinated.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Interesting tidbit re Yuan's descendants. The “the First Lady of Physics" was married to Luke Chia-Liu Yuan, a Chinese American physicist and grandson of Yuan Shikai. Their son Vincent Yuan was born in the US in 1947 and would grow up to become a physicist like his parents.

    Chien-Shiung Wu (May 31, 1912 – February 16, 1997) was a Chinese-American experimental physicist who made significant contributions in the field of nuclear physics. Wu worked on the Manhattan Project, where she helped develop the process for separating uranium metal into uranium-235 and uranium-238 isotopes by gaseous diffusion. She is best known for conducting the Wu experiment, which contradicted the hypothetical law of conservation of parity. This discovery resulted in her colleagues Tsung-Dao Lee and Chen-Ning Yang winning the 1957 Nobel Prize in physics, and also earned Wu the inaugural Wolf Prize in Physics a mere two decades later in 1978. Her expertise in experimental physics evoked comparisons to Marie Curie. Her nicknames include "the First Lady of Physics", "the Chinese Madame Curie", and the "Queen of Nuclear Research".[1]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chien-Shiung_Wu
     
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  102. Escher says:

    If China is where the future lies, then why are so many of its richest citizens escaping to or sending their kids to their declining West, buying overpriced properties in the Bay Area, London and Vancouver in the process?
    Doesn’t look like a vote of confidence to me.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    vacation homes and investment :) your comment reads just like those comments about "ghost cities" in china.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    They're not "escaping", no, not really.

    But there's something to be said for capital stability; if you have a lot of money in China, especially if you have gotten the money in less than legal means, you want that capital outside of China. And a rich person in the United States can be confident that he can keep his money more so than a rich person in China.

    As such, the capital outflows are expected. Without a doubt, this is a concern but its also worth wondering if its ideal to have a system that caters to the richest segment of the population.
    , @Hbd investor
    They aren't they are buying up us property because they are flush with cash and don't want to buy us treasuries

    When chinese corporations sell things to the US, they get reimbursed in dollars. Due to the chinese governments currency manipulation they can't exchange their dollars for rmb.

    So instead they seek to invest it in the us in either real estate, buying up us companies, or buying up us treasuries. They need to do this to fight inflation from destroyingtheir wealth

    If this keeps up, in the future the majority of Americans will work for a Chinese boss, and have a Chinese landlord.

    They send rich students to the US because they can't buy their way into chinese schools, the chinese universities grant admission solely on SAT like test scores

    So dumb rich kids with low sat scores (George w bush, Jared Kushner) can buy their way into the US

    But not in China, China is also very academically competitive. The lower class strives as hard as the upper class in test prepping and studying unlike the lower class in the US.
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  103. denk says:
    @Anon
    China is an excellent example of a majority (Han Chinese) slowly but surely imposing their language and culture on ethnic minorities, notably Uyghurs and Tibetans but also Cantonese and others.

    You should read J.S. Mill on China. For most of human history, China was the wealthiest country in the world by far. Beginning around 1700, that changed and it hasn't gone back. There's a reason for that.

    Every province is free to speak its own dialect.
    Mandarin is the common lingo for all.
    Simple as that.
    Cantonese are also Hans, moron !

    Everybody thought murkka pioneered the
    weapon of mass migration‘, a tool Washington use to destabilise and weaken the Euros.
    Well, Here’s a dirty little secret……
    The mother of WMM is……India. !

    Nepalese and Sri Lankans talk alot about ‘Sikkimisation’, ‘Bhutanisation’,
    ‘Fijisation’.

    Fijians are a minority in their own country, being overwhelmed by illegal immigrants from India.
    Bhutan is effectively run by Indian immigrants .
    Sikkim was first ‘Bhutanised’ , then gobbled up wholesale.
    Many Nepalese and Sri LaNkans lament they are already de facto Bhutanised, on the way to being ‘Sikkimised’ !

    Same in the Indian NorthEast, Tibetan/Burma people swarmed by Indian immigrants from the heartland.

    Tip of an iceberg.

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  104. denk says:
    @Anon
    Um, Tianenman Square.

    Um, Tianenman Square.

    Moron,

    Have your kool aid yet ?
    Cant even spell properly,
    Tiananmen was Debunked twenty years ago !

    Try some real ones,
    GUjarag 2001 [Indian genocide on Muslims]
    Massacre of Sikhs by Hindus 1984.

    Genocide on Nagas, Manipurs, Assamese, Kashmiris…

    https://www.quora.com/Will-Nagaland-and-Manipur-get-freedom-from-India

    [Warning] XXX rating.

    Tip of an iceberg,
    Gotta go now.

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  105. @Escher
    If China is where the future lies, then why are so many of its richest citizens escaping to or sending their kids to their declining West, buying overpriced properties in the Bay Area, London and Vancouver in the process?
    Doesn't look like a vote of confidence to me.

    vacation homes and investment :) your comment reads just like those comments about “ghost cities” in china.

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  106. Joe Wong says:
    @TheJester
    Please reread the article we are commenting on. It describes ants living in an ant hill ... you know, the Mandate from Heaven thing paired with the felt need for perfect social harmony. Only ants would understand this.

    China is the world largest outbound tourist nation, China is the largest luxury goods import nation, China is the world largest trading nation, China is one of the largest outbound FDI nations, China is the world’s engine moving humanity into next phase of prosperity,…

    It seems you are very jealous, resentful and fearful of Chinese achievements which will render the West as a sidebar in the world stage, and make the last few centuries as another dark age of exploitation, ideological suppression, disrespect of human lives by industrial scale mass murderering wars and lethal killing machines, global wide inequality, toxic GMO that will distort or exterminate not only human beings but all living creatures for good,.. In the history.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Government is like sewer management, trying to brag about how your waste stinks less is just embarrassing.
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  107. @Escher
    If China is where the future lies, then why are so many of its richest citizens escaping to or sending their kids to their declining West, buying overpriced properties in the Bay Area, London and Vancouver in the process?
    Doesn't look like a vote of confidence to me.

    They’re not “escaping”, no, not really.

    But there’s something to be said for capital stability; if you have a lot of money in China, especially if you have gotten the money in less than legal means, you want that capital outside of China. And a rich person in the United States can be confident that he can keep his money more so than a rich person in China.

    As such, the capital outflows are expected. Without a doubt, this is a concern but its also worth wondering if its ideal to have a system that caters to the richest segment of the population.

    Read More
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  108. @TheJester
    Please reread the article we are commenting on. It describes ants living in an ant hill ... you know, the Mandate from Heaven thing paired with the felt need for perfect social harmony. Only ants would understand this.

    This is not how the Mandate of Heaven works.

    Biff’s quite correct. Its much more complex than it seems. Appearance and reality are distinct.

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  109. @Anon
    China tried democracy. It was short-lived and didn't work out too well. The democratic-elected president Yuan, sick and tired of all of the political bickering, infighting, and impasses and drunk from his own ambition, declared himself emperor. Anti-Yuan revolutionaries immediately started. War broke out and the warlords ruled different parts of China. More wars followed, with the KMT and the Communist party(CPC) left being the major players. Japan invaded. the KMT and the CPC declared truce with each other and fought the Japanese. 8-year war with Japan. Over 20 million Chinese died. WWII ended; Japan surrendered. 4 more years of civil war between KMT and CPC. Millions more died.

    Mao adopted the Soviet's political and economic system. In the economic collectivism reform, the great Leap Forward, and the Culture Revolution, millions more people died. Basically from 1913 to 1979, the year Deng Xiaoping started the economic reform, China didn't have any resemblance of political stability. If Chinese learned anything from the modern history, they would have to walk their own path. They couldn't simply copy what the US or the USSR was doing. They would have to come up with a system that would work for them.

    The Chinese model (political and economic system) is not exportable. Maybe the only country can adopt it is Vietnam. (because of the Confucianism and Communism influence and other similarities). Vietnam has been sending its officials to China to study how the Chinese run their government. Maybe Vietnam can make it work as well.

    The Chinese model (political and economic system) is not exportable. Maybe the only country can adopt it is Vietnam.

    Mostly agreed, and it should be noted, Vietnam hasn’t had a lot of success trying to copy it. As Mr. Karlin might say, its very cargo culty – it often feels like they try to imitate parts of it without fully understanding it: i.e. the examinations are only going to work if you are actually going to takes it seriously, not use it as an excuse to promote your friends and family. A lot of countries seem to just stumble into kleptocracies no matter what they appear to be trying to do.

    I think that some parts of the Sino model certainly seem exportable, even in the 1700s Voltaire was writing admiring of the civil service examinations.

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  110. @Joe Wong
    China is the world largest outbound tourist nation, China is the largest luxury goods import nation, China is the world largest trading nation, China is one of the largest outbound FDI nations, China is the world's engine moving humanity into next phase of prosperity,...

    It seems you are very jealous, resentful and fearful of Chinese achievements which will render the West as a sidebar in the world stage, and make the last few centuries as another dark age of exploitation, ideological suppression, disrespect of human lives by industrial scale mass murderering wars and lethal killing machines, global wide inequality, toxic GMO that will distort or exterminate not only human beings but all living creatures for good,.. In the history.

    Government is like sewer management, trying to brag about how your waste stinks less is just embarrassing.

    Read More
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  111. @Escher
    If China is where the future lies, then why are so many of its richest citizens escaping to or sending their kids to their declining West, buying overpriced properties in the Bay Area, London and Vancouver in the process?
    Doesn't look like a vote of confidence to me.

    They aren’t they are buying up us property because they are flush with cash and don’t want to buy us treasuries

    When chinese corporations sell things to the US, they get reimbursed in dollars. Due to the chinese governments currency manipulation they can’t exchange their dollars for rmb.

    So instead they seek to invest it in the us in either real estate, buying up us companies, or buying up us treasuries. They need to do this to fight inflation from destroyingtheir wealth

    If this keeps up, in the future the majority of Americans will work for a Chinese boss, and have a Chinese landlord.

    They send rich students to the US because they can’t buy their way into chinese schools, the chinese universities grant admission solely on SAT like test scores

    So dumb rich kids with low sat scores (George w bush, Jared Kushner) can buy their way into the US

    But not in China, China is also very academically competitive. The lower class strives as hard as the upper class in test prepping and studying unlike the lower class in the US.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    They send rich students to the US because they can’t buy their way into chinese schools, the chinese universities grant admission solely on SAT like test scores
     
    Its always an interesting thing of cultural mismatch when you hear white nationalists ramble about "the Chinese wouldn't let their universities be overrun by other race even thought they had higher scores!"

    No, we would. The obsession with meritocracy(metric-to-cracy?) is a fundamental part of Chinese culture. It may be debatable how good it is, but it is very much part and parcel of Confucianism.

    There are exceptions, but its very fundamental to the culture. Confucianism is a philosophy, but it does approach, at times, something akin to a religious status. And tests are thus, virtually sacred.

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  112. @Hbd investor
    They aren't they are buying up us property because they are flush with cash and don't want to buy us treasuries

    When chinese corporations sell things to the US, they get reimbursed in dollars. Due to the chinese governments currency manipulation they can't exchange their dollars for rmb.

    So instead they seek to invest it in the us in either real estate, buying up us companies, or buying up us treasuries. They need to do this to fight inflation from destroyingtheir wealth

    If this keeps up, in the future the majority of Americans will work for a Chinese boss, and have a Chinese landlord.

    They send rich students to the US because they can't buy their way into chinese schools, the chinese universities grant admission solely on SAT like test scores

    So dumb rich kids with low sat scores (George w bush, Jared Kushner) can buy their way into the US

    But not in China, China is also very academically competitive. The lower class strives as hard as the upper class in test prepping and studying unlike the lower class in the US.

    They send rich students to the US because they can’t buy their way into chinese schools, the chinese universities grant admission solely on SAT like test scores

    Its always an interesting thing of cultural mismatch when you hear white nationalists ramble about “the Chinese wouldn’t let their universities be overrun by other race even thought they had higher scores!”

    No, we would. The obsession with meritocracy(metric-to-cracy?) is a fundamental part of Chinese culture. It may be debatable how good it is, but it is very much part and parcel of Confucianism.

    There are exceptions, but its very fundamental to the culture. Confucianism is a philosophy, but it does approach, at times, something akin to a religious status. And tests are thus, virtually sacred.

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  113. denk says:
    @Grandpa Charlie

    "Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore [in terms of the legacy of Sun Yat-sen]. They [the KMT?] were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die." -- Daniel Chieh
     
    Thank you for concise view of what's going on with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I guess that's why we hear almost nothing out of there anymore. Very buttoned up. But, you know:

    "According to governmental statistics, over 95% of the Republic of China's population is now made up of Han Chinese" -- wikipedia article Demographics of Taiwan
     
    ... so what I would think is that the people are desperately trying to find a way out of Kissinger's 1971 bargain that gave Taiwan to the PRC, along with China's permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Also, they appear to be trying to attract some loyalty to the Taipei government, from whatever source. Also, they probably miscalculated that Hillary would win in 2016. All-in-all, I get the picture: the people of Taiwan are f*cked - just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. C'est la guerre!

    ‘. All-in-all, I get the picture: the people of Taiwan are f*cked – just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. C’est la guerre!’

    No way honey .!
    There aint no PLA barracks in TW !
    Try Okinawa, it has been fucked, literally, for over 70 years by uncle sham.

    You should see how HKers gaped at the Liaoning with awe. !
    For the majority, Those NED sponsored ‘freedom fighters’ are just a bunch of dumb fucks still wet behind their ears, puppets dancing to the tunes from fukus. .[0]

    You got it right on Tibet tho, bingo. !
    It has been fucked, literally for over 70 years by…..your Indian soul mates !

    Ladies and gentlemen…..
    Welcome to the other Tibet,

    THE TIBET THAT NOBODY WANNA TALK ABOUT !
    [1]


    Does she look like Indian ?

    ‘Manorama was a 32 year old Manipuri woman, who was picked up from her house in early July by soldiers for being a ‘suspected insurgent’ and later found dead. Autopsy reports showed she had been shot at close range and that too several times through her genitals- an obvious attempt to fudge any investigation of rape’

    [0]
    fukus = fuck uk +us.

    [1]
    No kidding !
    most of so-callled INdia’s ‘NorthEast’ was carved out from Southern Tibet proper, courtesy of the Brits.
    Now you know why they dont look like Indians !
    India, aka ‘the world’s largest democracy’ has been raping it with random, no,
    sadism.

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  114. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    Sure he was. Yuan Shikai was elected by the Nanjing Provisional Senate on 14 February 1912, and the KMT, Yuan's main political opponent, won many seats in the elections. Song Jiaoren of the KMT was about to becoming the Prime Minister before he was assassinated.

    Interesting tidbit re Yuan’s descendants. The “the First Lady of Physics” was married to Luke Chia-Liu Yuan, a Chinese American physicist and grandson of Yuan Shikai. Their son Vincent Yuan was born in the US in 1947 and would grow up to become a physicist like his parents.

    Chien-Shiung Wu (May 31, 1912 – February 16, 1997) was a Chinese-American experimental physicist who made significant contributions in the field of nuclear physics. Wu worked on the Manhattan Project, where she helped develop the process for separating uranium metal into uranium-235 and uranium-238 isotopes by gaseous diffusion. She is best known for conducting the Wu experiment, which contradicted the hypothetical law of conservation of parity. This discovery resulted in her colleagues Tsung-Dao Lee and Chen-Ning Yang winning the 1957 Nobel Prize in physics, and also earned Wu the inaugural Wolf Prize in Physics a mere two decades later in 1978. Her expertise in experimental physics evoked comparisons to Marie Curie. Her nicknames include “the First Lady of Physics”, “the Chinese Madame Curie”, and the “Queen of Nuclear Research”.[1]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chien-Shiung_Wu

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  115. denk says:
    @Grandpa Charlie

    "Its immaterial if the ROC could have fulfilled anything anymore [in terms of the legacy of Sun Yat-sen]. They [the KMT?] were routed by the native Taiwanese, and the government taken over by idiots who spend their time debating about gay rights, feminism, and how much they should signal independence while completely lacking the ability to do anything but slowly die." -- Daniel Chieh
     
    Thank you for concise view of what's going on with the Republic of China (Taiwan)! I guess that's why we hear almost nothing out of there anymore. Very buttoned up. But, you know:

    "According to governmental statistics, over 95% of the Republic of China's population is now made up of Han Chinese" -- wikipedia article Demographics of Taiwan
     
    ... so what I would think is that the people are desperately trying to find a way out of Kissinger's 1971 bargain that gave Taiwan to the PRC, along with China's permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Also, they appear to be trying to attract some loyalty to the Taipei government, from whatever source. Also, they probably miscalculated that Hillary would win in 2016. All-in-all, I get the picture: the people of Taiwan are f*cked - just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. C'est la guerre!

    the people of the DPRK are fucked, C’est la guerre!

    And the rapists is……the UsualSuspect

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-versus-the-united-states-who-are-the-demons/28342

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  116. denk says:
    @Carpenter
    "Our presidents hire and fire all senior officials, secretly ban fifty thousand citizens from flying, order people kidnapped, tortured, imprisoned and assassinated and take the country to war. No Chinese leader, not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things."

    This is ridiculous BS. Mao killed millions. He sent Han Chinese to populate the western-most provinces to displace the people there. He destroyed ancient temples and mansions and monuments, and tortured people for having built businesses. He forced the country to destroy all metal tools and pots and pans to create useless steel, so that twenty millions starved to death while harvests rotted. After that he lost some power, so he sicked the Red Guardists on the realists in the party, and put millions in prison camps.

    Mao had his soldiers bring him young girls from the villages around Beijing, and raped them. He raped thousands of girls. Because he had syphilis, and thought sex with virgin girls would help him. And because he was a psychopath.

    And of course, he also ordered that families could have no more than one child each. "not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things"? Surely not! Only kill tens of millions of people, destroy the economy by decree, have tens of millions put in prison camps without a trial, and force people to only have one child!

    In other words, Godfree Roberts is again full of shit. And those polls, saying 90 percent of the people support the government's policies? Laughable, just what you'd expect in a totalitarian state. Most Chinese HATE the party. Everything said here about the party being responsive to the people is a lie. It is an extremely corrupt machine. The "candidates" are picked by the party and elected because they want it.

    If the people had their way the first thing they'd do would be to prosecute the party officials, and to finally remove the communist label from government.

    Maybe Godfree can answer why the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy.

    ‘Mao had his soldiers bring him young girls from the villages around Beijing, and raped them. He raped thousands of girls. Because he had syphilis, and thought sex with virgin girls would help him. And because he was a psychopath.’


    This is the result of 70 years of brain washing….nuthin left between your ears.
    I’ve come across so many dumb fuck in my time, but you take the cake !

    Mao sent Han Chinese to populate the western-most provinces to displace the people there

    Hans moving west, Tibetans, Uighurs moving East, all in the faMily.

    Hans dont go 3000 miles away from home to evict Okinawans from their ancestral lands, to make way for a gawd damned military base….and raping their grand daughters for bonus.

    They dont go to SK to destroy a fishing comunity , to ursurp their land for another gawd damned navy base,

    They certainly didnt go 3000 miles away from home to ‘cleanse’ Diego Garcia of its inhabitants ….to build another fucking military base.

    They bloody hell never went 3000 miles away from home to rob the American Indians, the Australian aborigines, the NZ indigenuous of their land.

    An anglo of all people chastising Chinese on ‘ethnic cleansing’,
    Gimme a fucking break !

    To be continued…..barring unforseen circumstances.

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  117. “ninety-five percent of poor Chinese own their homes and land and the Chinese own, in common, the commanding heights of their economy– banks, insurers and utilities. And Inequality is being effectively addressed.”

    Sounds like CPC propaganda. Per The Economist there is no such thing as land ownership in China. Nobody owns the land they live or work on due to the legacy of communism. Even home owners technically only has a 30 year lease on the land they live on. Farmers definitely do not own the land that they farm, that’s why so many corrupt government officials were able to seize the land and sold it to well connected developers on the cheap, pocketed the money and moved to the west.

    If the survey is actually right that 90% of Chinese are happy with their government, it’s because the Chinese president does a good job giving the impression that his corruption purge is working. He nailed a number of high profile political opponents like Bo Xi Lai and the end result is, corrupt officials flee the country on a never before seen scale, with all their ill gotten gains.

    For the last decade demand for the 10,000 per year limit EB-5 visa has been soaring and almost all from wealthy Chinese. Property prices surged from HK to Singapore, Sydney to Vancouver, and from coast to coast in the US. At least 1/3 to 1/2 of all $million+ property buyers are from mainland China, all are cash buyers through shell companies in the Cayman Islands. Honest people do not need shell companies and do not buy in cash. The President of China makes only $26,000 a year, where does an ordinary Joe get $500k plus another couple of million to buy property in the west? Only the very wealthy can emigrate, and the country is so corrupt, no one can get rich without being corrupt, either by taking bribes or giving them.

    This article is hogwash. If China were that great, why is pratically the entire US west coast being transformed into a Chinese colony? Rich Chinese are fleeing China on a never before seen scale, that’s why the CPC is imposing stricter capital control, to no avail. Homes in my neighborhood have become a favorite money laundering ground for the mainland Chinese. This article is a propaganda piece for the CPC and nothing more. China sucks. Even those who said it’s great can’t wait to leave, just like India.

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    • Replies: @godfree Roberts
    Before dismissing information as 'hogwash', check the source. A strange idea, I know, but it might save you looking like a fool.
    Many American millionaires are happy to own homes without owning the underlying land rights. Why shouldn't poor Chinese be equally happy?
    'If the survey is actually right that 90% of Chinese are happy with their government, it’s because the Chinese president does a good job giving the impression that his corruption purge is working'. Or, it could be that their real, take-home wages keep doubling every ten years, their streets are safe, jails empty and their kids go to the best schools in the world. I dunno. What do you think?
    'For the last decade demand for the 10,000 per year limit EB-5 visa has been soaring and almost all from wealthy Chinese. ' Yet more billionaires choose to live in Beijing than anywhere on earth and China's (resident) middle class is much bigger than America's. Go figure.
    'Honest people do not need shell companies and do not buy in cash. ' Outside Beijing and Shanghai and, throughout Asia, Africa and the Middle East, most transactions–including auto and home purchases–are transacted in cash.
    'and the country is so corrupt, no one can get rich without being corrupt, either by taking bribes or giving them.' Nonsense. There are no signs of corruption in China that remotely resemble the obvious corruption we see in the USA.
    'Even those who said it’s great can’t wait to leave, just like India.'. Which is why Chinese students choose Chinese universities over American ones and those who can't get into Chinese universities and study abroad...return to China.
    You need to cut back on your Kool-Aid.
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  118. @Grandpa Charlie
    Thanks, Daniel, for responding to a couple of my points (in your response to DB Cooper). I questioned the accuracy of the "Edelman Trust Barometer" (for measuring trust of the people in the government), and you respond, as follows:

    "They really do love Xi Dada, and this isn’t an affectation. Most people in China would rate the competence of the CCP as fair to good, but not everyone would agree that the bureaucrats are out to benefit the average person as opposed to themselves. That is the correct, realistic view, imo." -- Daniel Chieh
     
    You see, that certainly is very different from what is proclaimed by the "Trust Barometer" with its methodological quirks (basing conclusions on surveys of persons Edelman identifies as "informed" citizens, etc.), What you say makes a lot of sense. I am an octogenarian and so, while I cannot really say that I experienced the Great Depression and the New Deal as an adult, I definitely remember it as a child. And I remember how adults (even those with some Republican leanings) really did love FDR. (I refer you to Arthur Godfrey's radio coverage of the state funeral of FDR.) I believe what you say, Daniel, and not what the Edelman survey purports to be the case - 90% trust in "the government" - trust to do what? being the operative question.

    Of course, there can't be made too much of my comparison of Xi with FDR, since FDR was a war-time president in the time that I remember, but I have some understanding of how the great mass of Americans more-or-less venerated FDR even before the War, during the Great Depression. (Because we still had so much liberty back then, it was FDR's popularity that evoked big-money Republicans to attempt to vilify him in the corporate press.)

    I wish, Daniel, that you or someone would comment on what I have heard about how people in Hong Kong have experienced rule by Beijing (destruction of Hong Kong's democratic "traditions" or aspirations) .... how that has strongly influenced the people in Taiwan in becoming adamantly opposed to effective absorption into Beijing's government. Also, I would like to know if you find that the Republic of China has fulfilled Sun Yat-sen's instructions as well as has Beijing (or Xi)? It's rather astounding how little anyone in USA seems to know of the political writings of Sun Yat-sen ... we are still so Eurocentric in our thinking, even now in this new millennium.

    Generally, about the democracy question, I would quote what is attributed to Sir Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried." What we here in USA have become aware of (those of us who still can think in the midst of our Cultural Revolution) is that the PRC is something new, something that has not been tried.

    I think that we need to recall the great truth of conservatism, that the equating of democracy with liberty is nonsense. Democracy is one thing. Liberty (or freedom) is something else. We here in USA have lost so much of our liberty in recent years that it's seldom that anyone talks about freedom any more, except to bolster their particular economic theories. What a shame!

    “Generally, about the democracy question, I would quote what is attributed to Sir Winston Churchill: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.” ”

    Winston Churchill died before the rise of Singapore. Today he would probably say the best form of government is that of a benevolent autocrat, like Lee Kuan Yew.

    Throughout history dynasties in China had always been undone by decadence and corruption. It’s ingrained in their culture. China today remains one of the most corrupt countries in the world, not much better than India. The only difference is, in China the officials steal from the people while they get things done, in India they steal and get nothing done.

    Lee Kuan Yew was able to stem out corruption in his government because a) it’s a small country of 5m as opposed to a country of 1.3Billion, and b) he paid his cabinet members very well (close to a $1million a year in salary) so they have no incentive to be corrupt. He also made all government employees wear name tags and urge all citizens to report all cases of corruption.

    The president of China makes only $26,000 a year. The rank and file make even less. And China being so huge the government trust busters have limited reach. There’s corruption up and down every level of government in China. One city official was so corrupt he actually had a money box in his office. Anyone who came in to ask for anything first needed to deposit 10,000 Yuan in the box before they asked for any favor.

    Where are most of these rich corrupt officials these days? Probably somewhere in CA, or Seattle, NYC, Sydney, Vancouver, Miami, living the good life. The Economist has written about the phenomenon of the “naked official” in China, where the corrupt official moves his wife and kid overseas, with all their money, while he still lives and puts up the pretense of work in China, ready to flee on a moment’s notice, usually in the middle of the night. There are also factory owners who leave in the middle of the night, leaving behind months of unpaid wages to their employees. Every business in China keeps 3 sets of books, one set for the government auditors, one set for the foreign partners, and one set for in house consumption. When the government comes knocking probing for tax fraud, they hang the accountant out to dry.

    China is an even bigger house of cards than the US. That’s why anyone who can afford to is looking to leave, not much better than India. Only once they get here they start talking up the greatness of the motherland, like the Indians. What a joke. We should send them all packing. 90% of those here are probably wanted in China for some form of corruption. Americans are idiots for letting them colonize us like this, that’s why they insist on keeping their rotten culture believing it to be superior to ours. As more and more of them immigrate here they’ll transform us into another China in no time.

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  119. fps27 says: • Website

    china is better than the usa…but polio is better than cancer, as a less serious disease…little if any mention here of the private-profit-as-source-and-meaning-of-all-human-endeavor aspect of capitalism which china may regulate – in the fashion of the FDR New Deal – in ways that benefit forms of governing that seem democratic, but anywhere that unelected, unchosen by the people individuals possess millions and/or billions of dollars and are a small minority of the populace that calls it self a democracy is operating according to the laws of what westerners are taught were the ancient greek origins of the form…greece was a slave society which afforded its upper class members leisure time to invent western philosophy, a profession still available only to an upper financial class in which folks can wonder about things instead of having to just do them or not survive…greek society was also an early lgbt type gathering with many if not most upper class men having wives to procreate with and young boys to have sex with, though there may not be a connection with alleged democracy depending on same sex unions, just saying…further, a comparison in improvements of living standards can be confusing when a predominantly peasant rural society is compared to a reasonably developed urban environment…if chinese life hadn’t improved more than american, there ought to have been a second revolution, violent or peaceful…if i had one dollar last year and this year i have two, i’ve improved my financial status by 100% ! this kind of consumer mental manipulation goes on all the time under the rule of market forces, said forces still under the control of small and getting smaller minorities which get richer every day the majority of humanity is more jeopardized by political,economic and environmental dangers mostly all the fault of doing business as usual , according to the dictates of a market under minority control which makes some people richer and most people poorer..am convinced that even with juggled books and surveys of questionable science (?) and idealized notions, china is doing some wondrous things with communists at least trying to control capitalism..long term it won’t work and i hope china – and the rest of the world – realizes that before it’s too late.

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  120. YW says:
    @Joe Hide
    To Godfrey Roberts,
    ... Just a great article. You presented a topic I had never thought about (Comparative success / failure) of Chinese governing system vs. U.S. government. The criteria You laid out were well supported with logic and facts, over and over.
    ... the conclusion I drew was that the Chinese leaders are using population opinion based mathematical and scientific analysis in determining goals and methods to improve their people's lives.
    .... I would also like to point out that a scientifically based fairly easily implemented in the West method to reverse it's destruction, would be to demand MRI, psychological, and technologically driven identifiers of traits of psychopathy, sociopathic behavior, narcissism, sadism, and insanity in sitting and potential candidates for public office and positions of power. Even cell phone aps doing this could eventually work.
    Also, Godfrey, the article was an appropriate length. Thank You for that too.

    The person who wrote this article failed to mention that China censors its people. If people complain about how the government is behaving or say that the leaders are doing badly,etc., they can be sent to jail. The Chinese do not hide this. They are censoring their internet, they are censoring WeChat.

    We can talk about how bad the United States is – openly and freely here on the internet. And maybe, that is why we are all so disgruntled. We complain complain complain and read each other’s complaints and get even more unhappy.

    IN China, the average work day is 9am-9pm and they work 6 days per week. Our elites gave them all of our tech and then gave them the right to trade with free economies even though Chinese companies are constantly loaned money by Chinese state banks to shore them up as needed. We couldn’t compete with that. Our elites have what they want – as do China’s. They now have a downtrodden group of laborers who will work for low wages, have no unions to protect them, and, I am sure our elites are salivating over China’s new credit system that includes your chat comments etc in your credit rating…which determines if you can have a job, travel within and without the country, and whether you should be able to get loans.

    Invite that here with your glowing admiration. Why not? We have allowed our leaders (by not voting – most of us – by not caring – by not being active locally in politics) to do this to us – so now, I guess you all hope that if we adopt Communism a la China we will all be super happy just like the Chinese – who work 12 hours a day 6 days a week. We are all such idiots.

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  121. @Facts are the new lies
    "ninety-five percent of poor Chinese own their homes and land and the Chinese own, in common, the commanding heights of their economy– banks, insurers and utilities. And Inequality is being effectively addressed."

    Sounds like CPC propaganda. Per The Economist there is no such thing as land ownership in China. Nobody owns the land they live or work on due to the legacy of communism. Even home owners technically only has a 30 year lease on the land they live on. Farmers definitely do not own the land that they farm, that's why so many corrupt government officials were able to seize the land and sold it to well connected developers on the cheap, pocketed the money and moved to the west.

    If the survey is actually right that 90% of Chinese are happy with their government, it's because the Chinese president does a good job giving the impression that his corruption purge is working. He nailed a number of high profile political opponents like Bo Xi Lai and the end result is, corrupt officials flee the country on a never before seen scale, with all their ill gotten gains.

    For the last decade demand for the 10,000 per year limit EB-5 visa has been soaring and almost all from wealthy Chinese. Property prices surged from HK to Singapore, Sydney to Vancouver, and from coast to coast in the US. At least 1/3 to 1/2 of all $million+ property buyers are from mainland China, all are cash buyers through shell companies in the Cayman Islands. Honest people do not need shell companies and do not buy in cash. The President of China makes only $26,000 a year, where does an ordinary Joe get $500k plus another couple of million to buy property in the west? Only the very wealthy can emigrate, and the country is so corrupt, no one can get rich without being corrupt, either by taking bribes or giving them.

    This article is hogwash. If China were that great, why is pratically the entire US west coast being transformed into a Chinese colony? Rich Chinese are fleeing China on a never before seen scale, that's why the CPC is imposing stricter capital control, to no avail. Homes in my neighborhood have become a favorite money laundering ground for the mainland Chinese. This article is a propaganda piece for the CPC and nothing more. China sucks. Even those who said it's great can't wait to leave, just like India.

    Before dismissing information as ‘hogwash’, check the source. A strange idea, I know, but it might save you looking like a fool.
    Many American millionaires are happy to own homes without owning the underlying land rights. Why shouldn’t poor Chinese be equally happy?
    ‘If the survey is actually right that 90% of Chinese are happy with their government, it’s because the Chinese president does a good job giving the impression that his corruption purge is working’. Or, it could be that their real, take-home wages keep doubling every ten years, their streets are safe, jails empty and their kids go to the best schools in the world. I dunno. What do you think?
    ‘For the last decade demand for the 10,000 per year limit EB-5 visa has been soaring and almost all from wealthy Chinese. ‘ Yet more billionaires choose to live in Beijing than anywhere on earth and China’s (resident) middle class is much bigger than America’s. Go figure.
    ‘Honest people do not need shell companies and do not buy in cash. ‘ Outside Beijing and Shanghai and, throughout Asia, Africa and the Middle East, most transactions–including auto and home purchases–are transacted in cash.
    ‘and the country is so corrupt, no one can get rich without being corrupt, either by taking bribes or giving them.’ Nonsense. There are no signs of corruption in China that remotely resemble the obvious corruption we see in the USA.
    ‘Even those who said it’s great can’t wait to leave, just like India.’. Which is why Chinese students choose Chinese universities over American ones and those who can’t get into Chinese universities and study abroad…return to China.
    You need to cut back on your Kool-Aid.

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    He's just another self-hating Asian, in good company with the likes of Gordan Chang.

    That said, the weirdness of the land law has done no favors for the sense of capital stability, but its also debatable if the government system should always be designed in order to make billionaires happy.

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  122. @godfree Roberts
    Before dismissing information as 'hogwash', check the source. A strange idea, I know, but it might save you looking like a fool.
    Many American millionaires are happy to own homes without owning the underlying land rights. Why shouldn't poor Chinese be equally happy?
    'If the survey is actually right that 90% of Chinese are happy with their government, it’s because the Chinese president does a good job giving the impression that his corruption purge is working'. Or, it could be that their real, take-home wages keep doubling every ten years, their streets are safe, jails empty and their kids go to the best schools in the world. I dunno. What do you think?
    'For the last decade demand for the 10,000 per year limit EB-5 visa has been soaring and almost all from wealthy Chinese. ' Yet more billionaires choose to live in Beijing than anywhere on earth and China's (resident) middle class is much bigger than America's. Go figure.
    'Honest people do not need shell companies and do not buy in cash. ' Outside Beijing and Shanghai and, throughout Asia, Africa and the Middle East, most transactions–including auto and home purchases–are transacted in cash.
    'and the country is so corrupt, no one can get rich without being corrupt, either by taking bribes or giving them.' Nonsense. There are no signs of corruption in China that remotely resemble the obvious corruption we see in the USA.
    'Even those who said it’s great can’t wait to leave, just like India.'. Which is why Chinese students choose Chinese universities over American ones and those who can't get into Chinese universities and study abroad...return to China.
    You need to cut back on your Kool-Aid.

    He’s just another self-hating Asian, in good company with the likes of Gordan Chang.

    That said, the weirdness of the land law has done no favors for the sense of capital stability, but its also debatable if the government system should always be designed in order to make billionaires happy.

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  123. denk says:
    @Carpenter
    "Our presidents hire and fire all senior officials, secretly ban fifty thousand citizens from flying, order people kidnapped, tortured, imprisoned and assassinated and take the country to war. No Chinese leader, not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things."

    This is ridiculous BS. Mao killed millions. He sent Han Chinese to populate the western-most provinces to displace the people there. He destroyed ancient temples and mansions and monuments, and tortured people for having built businesses. He forced the country to destroy all metal tools and pots and pans to create useless steel, so that twenty millions starved to death while harvests rotted. After that he lost some power, so he sicked the Red Guardists on the realists in the party, and put millions in prison camps.

    Mao had his soldiers bring him young girls from the villages around Beijing, and raped them. He raped thousands of girls. Because he had syphilis, and thought sex with virgin girls would help him. And because he was a psychopath.

    And of course, he also ordered that families could have no more than one child each. "not even Mao at his peak, could do any of those things"? Surely not! Only kill tens of millions of people, destroy the economy by decree, have tens of millions put in prison camps without a trial, and force people to only have one child!

    In other words, Godfree Roberts is again full of shit. And those polls, saying 90 percent of the people support the government's policies? Laughable, just what you'd expect in a totalitarian state. Most Chinese HATE the party. Everything said here about the party being responsive to the people is a lie. It is an extremely corrupt machine. The "candidates" are picked by the party and elected because they want it.

    If the people had their way the first thing they'd do would be to prosecute the party officials, and to finally remove the communist label from government.

    Maybe Godfree can answer why the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy.

    Mao was a psychopath…..

    It is an extremely corrupt machine. The “candidates” are picked by the party and elected because they want it.’

    Whereas, murkka is a ‘democracy’ where you pick the leaders right ?
    After picking 55 psychopaths in a row and you should worry about Mao ?

    ‘If the people had their way the first thing they’d do would be to prosecute the party officials, and to finally remove the communist label from government.’

    Genius,
    may be, just maby be, the Chinese are in no hurry to dump the CCP,
    which managed to transform a 4th world dump to the world’s 2nd largest economy in 70 years and lifted more people out of poverty than the world combined ?

    Presumably, YOu DO have the mean to remove your dear leaders tho ?
    When’r you gonna kick out those sobs in Washington, get someone at least half decent , someone who actually wants to improve murkkan living instead of spending all his working hours wondering which country to screw next ?

    ‘one child policy’.

    Presumbly the Chinese should ask for permission from those gawd chosen people, thats you sonny, before they could implement their population control. ?

    Do you know that it doesnt apply to minorities like Tibetans, Uighurs etc, ?
    What a strange way to ‘cleanse’ the Tibetans eh, those nasty Hans ?

    Did the VN, Iraqis, Cambodians, Indonesians, Yemenis ……request your help for population control by exteme means ?
    Thirty millions civilian wiped out since ww2 courtesy of the USA, thats just a very conservative estimate !

    Get real !
    Unlike that ‘Mao murdered millions’ canard, murkkan’s holocausts on the world were well documented, verifiable and ON GOING AT THIS VERY MIN.

    Do you know, or even care how many civilians are ‘wasted’ by the USAF, USN, USMC just today ???

    carpenter
    ‘Maybe Godfree can answer why the captive people in Hong Kong were deprived of democracy.’

    grandpa charlie
    ‘the people of Taiwan are f*cked – just like the people of Hong Kong or the people of Tibet or the people of the DPRK. ‘

    Hmmm,
    USA has been murdering Yemenese, Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians …..on a daily basis.
    Your soul mates the Indians are busy shooting, raping ‘insurgents’ in Kashmir and Tibet, aka ‘The NE’.

    But if your daily diet is the Guardian/Wapo/WarSJ etc,
    Its all about how the CCP ‘persecutes’ Nobel laureate Liu Xiao Bo, [what they missed out is Liu had blood on his hand as one of the ring leader in TAM, the mother of all 'color rev;] or
    How the accursed CCP oppressed ‘democracy activists’ in HK [of cause they never tell you those are useful idiots doing the bidding of the notorious NED'']

    You and your ilks are so proud of your ‘free press’, blissfully unaware that you are the captive victims of the world’s most sophiscated , manipulative brain washing machine.

    hehehehehe

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  124. CPH says:

    Very interesting article. I didn’t know that internal polling was as extensive as it apparently is. The joke at the end is excellent too.

    My belief and that of most of my colleagues who I know think about the question, is that China will develop its own form of government for the 21st century, one based on its own cultural and political traditions.

    It may not be one that would appear attractive to people who have grown up in liberal democracies but we have to face the fact that we are, increasingly, no longer a model for anyone. In the United States, the governing class is openly for sale courtesy of the Supreme Court ruling and in Britain, where the political class now rank beneath used car salesmen in public esteem, and apparently don’t care, our faith in an attractive future is dwindling. The future belongs to those who now own the government.

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  125. bradac says:

    Distinguish the constitution of the CPC (statute) from the constitution of the PRC, please! See here http://china.usc.edu/constitution-peoples-republic-china-1982, or better (consolidated) here http://english.gov.cn/archive/laws_regulations/2014/08/23/content_281474982987458.htm.

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  126. Tirius99 says:

    After reading your article and learning about the Chinese government’s process and how it makes it’s decisions based on experimentation and data, it certainly sounds like China is really the world’s first Socialist Technocracy.

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