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The same people who assured you that Saddam Hussein had WMD’s now assure you Russian “novochok” nerve agents are being wielded by Vladimir Putin to attack people on British soil. As with the Iraqi WMD dossier, it is essential to comb the evidence very finely. A vital missing word from Theresa May’s statement yesterday was “only”. She did not state that the nerve agent used was manufactured ONLY by Russia. She rather stated this group of nerve agents had been “developed by” Russia. Antibiotics were first developed by a Scotsman, but that is not evidence that all antibiotics are today administered by Scots.

The “novochok” group of nerve agents – a very loose term simply for a collection of new nerve agents the Soviet Union were developing fifty years ago – will almost certainly have been analysed and reproduced by Porton Down. That is entirely what Porton Down is there for. It used to make chemical and biological weapons as weapons, and today it still does make them in small quantities in order to research defences and antidotes. After the fall of the Soviet Union Russian chemists made a lot of information available on these nerve agents. And one country which has always manufactured very similar persistent nerve agents is Israel. This Foreign Policy magazine (a very establishment US publication) article on Israel‘s chemical and biological weapon capability is very interesting indeed. I will return to Israel later in this article.

Incidentally, novachok is not a specific substance but a class of new nerve agents. Sources agree they were designed to be persistent, and of an order of magnitude stronger than sarin or VX. That is rather hard to square with the fact that thankfully nobody has died and those possibly in contact just have to wash their clothes.

From Putin’s point of view, to assassinate Skripal now seems to have very little motivation. If the Russians have waited eight years to do this, they could have waited until after their World Cup. The Russians have never killed a swapped spy before. Just as diplomats, British and otherwise, are the most ardent upholders of the principle of diplomatic immunity, so security service personnel everywhere are the least likely to wish to destroy a system which can be a key aspect of their own personal security; quite literally spy swaps are their “Get Out of Jail Free” card. You don’t undermine that system – probably terminally – without very good reason.

It is worth noting that the “wicked” Russians gave Skripal a far lighter jail sentence than an American equivalent would have received. If a member of US Military Intelligence had sold, for cash to the Russians, the names of hundreds of US agents and officers operating abroad, the Americans would at the very least jail the person for life, and I strongly suspect would execute them. Skripal just received a jail sentence of 18 years, which is hard to square with the narrative of implacable vindictiveness against him. If the Russians had wanted to make an example, that was the time.

It is much more probable that the reason for this assassination attempt refers to something recent or current, than to spying twenty years ago. Were I the British police, I would inquire very closely into Orbis Intelligence.

There is no doubt that Skripal was feeding secrets to MI6 at the time that Christopher Steele was an MI6 officer in Moscow, and at the the time that Pablo Miller, another member of Orbis Intelligence, was also an MI6 officer in Russia and directly recruiting agents. It is widely reported on the web and in US media that it was Miller who first recruited Skripal. My own ex-MI6 sources tell me that is not quite true as Skripal was “walk-in”, but that Miller certainly was involved in running Skripal for a while. Sadly Pablo Miller’s LinkedIn profile has recently been deleted, but it is again widely alleged on the web that it showed him as a consultant for Orbis Intelligence and a consultant to the FCO and – wait for it – with an address in Salisbury. If anyone can recover that Linkedin entry do get in touch, though British Government agencies will have been active in the internet scrubbing.

It was of course Christopher Steele and Orbis Intelligence who produced for the Clinton camp the sensationalist dossier on Trump links with Russia – including the story of Trump paying to be urinated on by Russian prostitutes – that is a key part of the “Russiagate” affair gripping the US political classes. The extraordinary thing about this is that the Orbis dossier is obvious nonsense which anybody with a professional background can completely demolish, as I did here. Steele’s motive was, like Skripal’s in selling his secrets, cash pure and simple. Steele is a charlatan who knocked up a series of allegations that are either wildly improbable, or would need a high level source access he could not possibly get in today’s Russia, or both. He told the Democrats what they wish to hear and his audience – who had and still have no motivation to look at it critically – paid him highly for it.

I do not know for certain that Pablo Miller helped knock together the Steele dossier on Trump, but it seems very probable given he also served for MI6 in Russia and was working for Orbis. And it seems to me even more probable that Sergei Skripal contributed to the Orbis Intelligence dossier on Trump. Steele and Miller cannot go into Russia and run sources any more, and never would have had access as good as their dossier claims, even in their MI6 days. The dossier was knocked up for huge wodges of cash from whatever they could cobble together. Who better to lend a little corroborative verisimilitude in these circumstances than their old source Skripal?

Skripal was at hand in the UK, and allegedly even close to Miller in Salisbury. He could add in the proper acronym for a Russian committee here or the name of a Russian official there, to make it seem like Steele was providing hard intelligence. Indeed, Skripal’s outdated knowledge might explain some of the dossier’s more glaring errors.

But the problem with double agents like Skripal, who give intelligence for money, is that they can easily become triple agents and you never know when a better offer is going to come along. When Steele produced his dodgy dossier, he had no idea it would ever become so prominent and subject to so much scrutiny. Steele is fortunate in that the US Establishment is strongly motivated not to scrutinise his work closely as their one aim is to “get” Trump. But with the stakes very high, having a very loose cannon as one of the dossier’s authors might be most inconvenient both for Orbis and for the Clinton camp.

If I was the police, I would look closely at Orbis Intelligence.

To return to Israel. Israel has the nerve agents. Israel has Mossad which is extremely skilled at foreign assassinations. Theresa May claimed Russian propensity to assassinate abroad as a specific reason to believe Russia did it. Well Mossad has an even greater propensity to assassinate abroad. And while I am struggling to see a Russian motive for damaging its own international reputation so grieviously, Israel has a clear motivation for damaging the Russian reputation so grieviously. Russian action in Syria has undermined the Israeli position in Syria and Lebanon in a fundamental way, and Israel has every motive for damaging Russia’s international position by an attack aiming to leave the blame on Russia.

Both the Orbis and Israeli theories are speculations. But they are no more a speculation, and no more a conspiracy theory, than the idea that Vladimir Putin secretly sent agents to Salisbury to attack Skripal with a secret nerve agent. I can see absolutely no reason to believe that is a more valid speculation than the others at this point.

I am alarmed by the security, spying and armaments industries’ frenetic efforts to stoke Russophobia and heat up the new cold war. I am especially alarmed at the stream of cold war warrior “experts” dominating the news cycles. I write as someone who believes that agents of the Russian state did assassinate Litvinenko, and that the Russian security services carried out at least some of the apartment bombings that provided the pretext for the brutal assault on Chechnya. I believe the Russian occupation of Crimea and parts of Georgia is illegal. On the other hand, in Syria Russia has saved the Middle East from domination by a new wave of US and Saudi sponsored extreme jihadists.

The naive view of the world as “goodies” and “baddies”, with our own ruling class as the good guys, is for the birds. I witnessed personally in Uzbekistan the willingness of the UK and US security services to accept and validate intelligence they knew to be false in order to pursue their policy objectives. We should be extremely sceptical of their current anti-Russian narrative. There are many possible suspects in this attack.

Craig Murray is an author, broadcaster and human rights activist. He was British Ambassador to Uzbekistan from August 2002 to October 2004 and Rector of the University of Dundee from 2007 to 2010.

March 14th: The Novichok Story Is Indeed Another Iraqi WMD Scam • 1,000 Words

As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant and their composition unknown.

In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published. (Black, 2016)

Robin Black. (2016) Development, Historical Use and Properties of Chemical Warfare Agents. Royal Society of Chemistry

Yet now, the British Government is claiming to be able instantly to identify a substance which its only biological weapons research centre has never seen before and was unsure of its existence. Worse, it claims to be able not only to identify it, but to pinpoint its origin. Given Dr Black’s publication, it is plain that claim cannot be true.

The world’s international chemical weapons experts share Dr Black’s opinion. The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) is a UN body based in the Hague. In 2013 this was the report of its Scientific Advisory Board, which included US, French, German and Russian government representatives and on which Dr Black was the UK representative:

[The SAB] emphasised that the definition of toxic chemicals in the Convention would cover all potential candidate chemicals that might be utilised as chemical weapons. Regarding new toxic chemicals not listed in the Annex on Chemicals but which may nevertheless pose a risk to the Convention, the SAB makes reference to “Novichoks”. The name “Novichok” is used in a publication of a former Soviet scientist who reported investigating a new class of nerve agents suitable for use as binary chemical weapons. The SAB states that it has insufficient information to comment on the existence or properties of “Novichoks”. (OPCW, 2013)

OPCW: Report of the Scientific Advisory Board on developments in science and technology for the Third Review Conference 27 March 2013

Indeed the OPCW was so sceptical of the viability of “novichoks” that it decided – with US and UK agreement – not to add them nor their alleged precursors to its banned list. In short, the scientific community broadly accepts Mirzayanov was working on “novichoks” but doubts he succeeded.

Given that the OPCW has taken the view the evidence for the existence of “Novichoks” is dubious, if the UK actually has a sample of one it is extremely important the UK presents that sample to the OPCW. Indeed the UK has a binding treaty obligation to present that sample to OPCW. Russa has – unreported by the corporate media – entered a demand at the OPCW that Britain submit a sample of the Salisbury material for international analysis.

Yet Britain refuses to submit it to the OPCW.

Why?

A second part of May’s accusation is that “Novichoks” could only be made in certain military installations. But that is also demonstrably untrue. If they exist at all, Novichoks were allegedly designed to be able to be made at bench level in any commercial chemical facility – that was a major point of them. The only real evidence for the existence of Novichoks was the testimony of the ex-Soviet scientist Mizayanov. And this is what Mirzayanov actually wrote.

One should be mindful that the chemical components or precursors of A-232 or its binary version novichok-5 are ordinary organophosphates that can be made at commercial chemical companies that manufacture such products as fertilizers and pesticides.

Vil S. Mirzayanov, “Dismantling the Soviet/Russian Chemical Weapons Complex: An Insider’s View,” in Amy E. Smithson, Dr. Vil S. Mirzayanov, Gen Roland Lajoie, and Michael Krepon, Chemical Weapons Disarmament in Russia: Problems and Prospects, Stimson Report No. 17, October 1995, p. 21.

It is a scientific impossibility for Porton Down to have been able to test for Russian novichoks if they have never possessed a Russian sample to compare them to. They can analyse a sample as conforming to a Mirzayanov formula, but as he published those to the world twenty years ago, that is no proof of Russian origin. If Porton Down can synthesise it, so can many others, not just the Russians.

And finally – Mirzayanov is an Uzbek name and the novichok programme, assuming it existed, was in the Soviet Union but far away from modern Russia, at Nukus in modern Uzbekistan. I have visited the Nukus chemical weapons site myself. It was dismantled and made safe and all the stocks destroyed and the equipment removed by the American government, as I recall finishing while I was Ambassador there. There has in fact never been any evidence that any “novichok” ever existed in Russia itself.

To summarise:

1) Porton Down has acknowledged in publications it has never seen any Russian “novichoks”. The UK government has absolutely no “fingerprint” information such as impurities that can safely attribute this substance to Russia.
2) Until now, neither Porton Down nor the world’s experts at the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were convinced “Novichoks” even exist.
3) The UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW.
4) “Novichoks” were specifically designed to be able to be manufactured from common ingredients on any scientific bench. The Americans dismantled and studied the facility that allegedly developed them. It is completely untrue only the Russians could make them, if anybody can.
5) The “Novichok” programme was in Uzbekistan not in Russia. Its legacy was inherited by the Americans during their alliance with Karimov, not by the Russians.

With a great many thanks to sources who cannot be named at this moment.

March 15th: Bothered by Midges • 300 Words

In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack. The abuse has mostly been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from corporate and state media “journalists”. I suppose I am a standing rebuke to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited.

Today they are all terrifically happy and sharing amongst themselves a lengthy twitter thread by a Blairite and chemist called Clyde Davis in which they all say I am “owned” and my article disproven. There are two remarkable things about this thread.

The first remarkable thing is the remarkably high percentage of those who are sharing it with commendations who are mainstream media journalists. Last I saw was George Monbiot five minutes ago, but there are dozens. I suppose it is important to them as validating their decision to support uncritically the government line without doing any actual journalism.

The second remarkable thing is that the thread they are all sharing misses out almost all my side of the conversation. An objective observer might think that made it hard to say who “won” the argument. To be fair, that is probably not deliberate but appears to be a result of how twitter does threading. Here I reconstruct by paste the thread with my responses. It may give a better idea of whether Mr Davis completely “destroys” my article, as the “professional” journalists are all claiming. And as Mr Davies is critiquing my article, perhaps you might refresh yourself on that first here.

[MORE]

March 16th: Of a Type Developed By Liars • 700 Words

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve agent as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days. The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday:

This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.

UPDATE

This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

Erratum – I originally typed “nerve gas” and not “nerve agent” in the first line – purely my error.

March 17th: On Not Being Refuted • 500 Words

Several million people have now read my articles on the lack of evidence of Russian government guilt for the Salisbury attack. That’s over 300,000 unique visitors on this little blog alone so far, and it has been repeated on hundreds of sites all over the internet. My own tweets on the subject have been retweeted over 12,500 times and received 8 million impressions. I know that journalists from every mainstream media outlet you can mention have seen the material, because of numerous tweets from them none of which address any of the facts, but instead call me a “Conspiracy nutter” or variants of that, some very rude.

Yet what I wrote has not been refuted. It would be very easy to refute were it not true. The government would just have to say “Porton Down have stated that they have definitely identified the nerve agent as made in Russia”. They have not said that. Most extraordinarily, not one mainstream media “journalist” has asked a minister the question: “You keep using this phrase the nerve agent is “of a type developed by Russia”. Are you able to confirm it was actually made in Russia?” .

There is no excuse for this. Literally hundreds of mainstream media “journalists” have slavishly reproduced the propaganda phrase “of a type developed by Russia” without a single one of them every querying this rather odd wording, or why it is the government always uses that precise wording again and again and again.

It goes without saying that not a single mainstream media “journalist” has reported that fact either that until recently Porton Down believed that “novichoks” had probably never actually been synthesised successfully and that the OPCW has never banned them on the grounds that there was no evidence of their physical existence.

Finally I wish to repeat these important facts:

1) Israel has major undeclared stocks of chemical weapons
2) Israel is one of a handful of countries, including North Korea, not to ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention and commit to destroy its chemical weapons
3) Israel is not a member of the OPCW and refuses to declare its chemical weapon stocks to the OPCW.

These are also facts you will never, ever see reported in mainstream media and entirely predictably the corporate lickspittles of the mainstream media have been out in force on socal media justifying their refusal to act on any of the information I have given on the grounds I am an “anti-semite”. A more extreme example of using any criticism of Israel to allege anti-semitism is hard to conceive.

The contribution of Jewish people to human development in fields including science, literature, music, art and commerce has been simply magnificent and utterly disproportionate to their numbers. The genocidal policy of Israel towards the Palestinians these last seventy years, and its rogue state status as regard chemical and nuclear wmds is a completely different question, for which I in no way blame the generality of Jewish people. In fact my position on this is the opposite of a BDS position. I actually want Israel to join OPCW, be a full member and cooperate in the destruction of its chemical weapon stocks.

I think I might now have a vodka. Of a type developed by Russia. Made in Warrington.

March 17th: First Recorded Successful Novichok Synthesis was in 2016 – By Iran, in Cooperation with the OPCW • 400 Words

The line that novichoks can only be produced by Russia is now proven to be a complete lie. As I previously proved by referencing their publications, in 2013 the OPCW scientific advisory committee note the evidence was sparse that novichoks had ever been successfully produced, and that was still the line being published by Porton Down in 2016. You can find the hard evidence of all that here.

I have now been sent the vital information that in late 2016, Iranian scientists set out to study whether novichoks really could be produced from commercially available ingredients. Iran succeeded in synthesising a number of novichoks. Iran did this in full cooperation with the OPCW and immediately reported the results to the OPCW so they could be added to the chemical weapons database.

This makes complete nonsense of the Theresa May’s “of a type developed by Russia” line, used to parliament and the UN Security Council. This explains why Porton Down have refused to cave in to governmental pressure to say the nerve agent was Russian. If Iran can make a novichok, so can a significant number of states.

While Iran acted absolutely responsibly in cooperating with the OPCW, there are a handful of rogue states operating outwith the rule of international law, like Israel and North Korea, which refuse to ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention, join the OPCW or destroy their chemical weapons stocks. Russia has cooperated in the OPCW destruction of all its chemical weapons stocks, completed last year, which included regular OPCW inspection of all the sites alleged to have been in the original “novichok” programme. Why nobody is even looking at the rogue states outwith the OPCW is a genuine puzzle.

Extraordinarily, only yesterday the Guardian was still carrying an article which claimed “only the Russian state” could make a novichok. Despite the lying propaganda regurgitated by virtually every corporate and state “journalist”, in truth is it is now proven beyond dispute that “of a type developed by Russia” has zero evidential value and is a politician’s weasel phrase designed deliberately to mislead the public. The public should ask why.

March 18th: Boris Johnson Attempt to Refute My Sources on Porton Down the Most Hilarious Fail • 400 Words

he Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has issued a statement to refute my report from well-placed FCO sources that the British government continually re-uses the phrase “of a type developed by Russia” because its own scientists refused government pressure to say the nerve agent was made by Russia, and as getting even agreement to “of a type developed by” was bloody, the government has to stick to precisely that rather odd choice of phrase.

This is the official British Government statement:

“We have no idea what Mr Murray is referring to. The Prime Minister told MP’s on Monday that world leading experts at Porton Down had positively identified this chemical agent. It is clear that it is a military grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia. None of that is in any doubt”.

Which is perhaps the most hilarious fail in the history of refutation.

The BBC sprung that statement on me during a live interview on Radio 5 last night. They also sprung on me a statement by the Israeli Embassy and were attempting to lead me into accusing Israel of the attack. But even the BBC interviewer, Stephen Nolan, was flummoxed by the rubbish he had been given from the FCO. Here is an extract from that part of the interview:

Stephen Nolan: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office have said to us tonight: “We have no idea what Mr Murray is referring to. The Prime Minister told MP’s on Monday that world leading experts at Porton Down had positively identified this chemical agent. It is clear that it is a military grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia. None of that is in any doubt”. Well, you’ve already covered that Craig and you are zoning in on the fact that they are saying “developed by Russia”, they are unable to say whether it’s made – well they are not saying whether it was actually manufactured in Russia or the source of it or whether it was from Russia, right?”

Craig Murray Yes, exactly. No-one doubts that the Russians had the idea of making these things first, and worked on developing the idea. It has always been doubted up till now that they really succeeded. The Iranians succeeded under OPCW supervision some time ago and the chemical formulae were published to the whole world twenty years ago. So many states could have done it. The “of a type developed by Russia” thing means nothing, undoubtedly.

You can hear the whole interview here beginning about 5 minutes in.

March 18th: Craig Murray Radio 5 Interview on Skripal Attack

March 18th: Boris Johnson Issues Completely New Story on “Russian Novichoks” • 1,000 Words

Boris Johnson has attempted to renew the faltering case for blaming Russia ahead of the investigation into the Skripal attack, by issuing a fundamentally new story that completely changes – and very radically strengthens – the government line on what it knows. You can see the long Foreign and Commonwealth Office Statement here.

This is the sensational new claim which all the propaganda sheets are running with:

The Foreign Secretary revealed this morning that we have information indicating that within the last decade, Russia has investigated ways of delivering nerve agents likely for assassination. And part of this programme has involved producing and stockpiling quantities of novichok. This is a violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention.

This is an astonishing claim and requires close investigation. If this information comes from MI5 or MI6, there is a process of inter-departmental clearance that has to be gone through before it can be put in the public domain – even by a Minister – which is known as “Action-on”. I have been through the process personally many times when working as head of the FCO Section of the Embargo Surveillance Centre, monitoring Iraqi arms acquisitions. It is not, unless actually at war, a Saturday night process – it would have had to have been done on Friday.

So why is this essential information being released not to Parliament on Friday, but on Andrew Marr’s sofa early on a Sunday morning, backed up with a Sunday morning official statement? This is very unusual. Furthermore, it is absolutely incompatible with what I was told last week by FCO sources – they did not know this information, and one of them certainly would have if it was based on MI6 or GCHQ reporting.

I can see only two possible explanations. One – and the most likely – depends on looking yet again extremely carefully at what the statement says. It says “we have information indicating that within the last decade”. If does not say how long we have held that information. And “within the last decade” can mean any period of time between a second and ten years ago, Very tellingly it says “within the last decade”, it does not say “for the last decade”.

“Within the last decade” is in fact the exact same semantic trick as “sale price – up to 50% off”. That can mean no more than 0.1% off and its only actual meaning is “never better than half price”.

The most likely explanation of this sentence is therefore that they have – since last week when they didn’t know this – just been given this alleged information. And not from a regular ally with whom we have an intelligence sharing agreement. It could have come from another state, or from a private source of dodgy intelligence – Orbis, for example.

The FCO are again deliberately twisting words to convey the impression that we have known for a decade, whereas in fact the statement does not say this at all.

There is a second possible explanation. MI6 officers in the field get intelligence from agents who, by and large, they pay for it. In my experience of seeing thousands of MI6 intelligence reports, a fair proportion of this “Humint” is unreliable. Graham Greene, a former MI6 officer, was writing a true picture in the brilliant “our Man in Havana”, which I cannot strongly recommend enough to you.

The intelligence received arrives in Vauxhall Cross and there is a filter. A country desk officer will assess the intelligence and see if it is worth issuing as a Report; they judge accuracy against how good access the source has and how trustworthy they are deemed to be, and whether the content squares with known facts. If passed, the intelligence then becomes a Report and is given a serial number. This is not a very good filter, because it still lets through a lot of rubbish, but it does eliminate the complete dregs. One possible source of new information that has suddenly changed the government’s state of knowledge this weekend is a search of these dregs for anything that can be cobbled together. As I have written in Murder in Samarkand, it was the deliberate removal of filters which twisted the Iraqi WMD intelligence.

In short, we should be extremely sceptical of this sudden new information that Boris Johnson has produced out of a hat. If the UK was in possession of intelligence about a secret Russian chemical weapons programme, it was not under a legal obligation to tell Andrew Marr, but it was under a legal obligation to tell the OPCW. Not only did the UK fail to do that, the UK Ambassador Sir Geoffrey Adams was last year fulsomely congratulating the OPCW on the completion of the destruction of Russia’s chemical weapons stocks, without a single hint or reservation entered that Russia may have undeclared or secret stocks.

On the Andrew Marr programme, Boris Johnson appeared to say for the first time that the nerve agent in Salisbury was actually made in Russia. But this is a major divergence from the published FCO statement, which very markedly does not say this. Boris Johnson was therefore almost certainly reverting to his reflex lying. In fact the FCO statement gives an extremely strong hint the FCO is not at all confident it was made in Russia and is seeking to widen its bases. Look at this paragraph:

Russia is the official successor state to the USSR. As such, Russia legally took responsibility for ensuring the CWC applies to all former Soviet Chemical Weapons stocks and facilities.

It does not need me to point out, that if Porton Down had identified the nerve agent as made in Russia, the FCO would not have added that paragraph. Plainly they cannot say it was made in Russia.

The Soviet Chemical Weapons programme was based in Nukus in Uzbekistan. It was the Americans who dismantled and studied it and destroyed and removed the equipment. I visited it as Ambassador to Uzbekistan shortly after they had finished – I recall it as desolate, tiled and very cold, nothing to look at really. The above paragraph seeks to hold the Russians responsible for anything that came out of Nukus, when it was the Americans who actually took it.

March 19th: Portonblimp Down – A Tale By Boris Johnson • 100 Words

“Comrade Putin, we have successfully stockpiled novichoks in secret for ten years, and kept them hidden from the OPCW inspectors. We have also trained our agents in secret novichok assassination techniques. The programme has cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but now we are ready. Naturally, the first time we use it we will expose our secret and suffer massive international blowback. So who should be our first target? The head of a foreign intelligence agency? A leading jihadist rebel in Syria? A key nuclear scientist? Even a Head of State?”

“No, Tovarich. There is this old retired guy I know living in Salisbury. We released him from jail years ago…”

WARNING If you harbour any doubts at all about the plausibility of Mr Johnson’s story, you are a crazed conspiracy theorist and a traitor. Plus you will never, ever get employed in the BBC or corporate media.

March 20th: D’un Type Développé par des Menteurs • 600 Words

Those who have so kindly followed my analysis of the Skripal case so far will not have been surprised by this formulation appearing yet again in today’s European Union statement:

The European Union strongly condemns the attack that took place against Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury, UK on 4 March 2018, that also left a police officer seriously ill. The lives of many citizens were threatened by this reckless and illegal act. The European Union takes extremely seriously the UK government’s assessment that it is highly likely that the Russian Federation is responsible.
The European Union is shocked at the offensive use of any military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, for the first time on European soil in over 70 years. The use of chemical weapons by anyone under any circumstances is completely unacceptable and constitutes a security threat to us all. Any such use is a clear violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention, a breach of international law and undermines the rules-based international order. The EU welcomes the commitment of the UK to work closely with the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) in supporting the investigation into the attack. The union calls on Russia to address urgently the questions raised by the UK and the international community and to provide immediate, full and complete disclosure of its novichok programme to the OPCW.
The European Union expresses its unqualified solidarity with the UK and its support, including for the UK’s efforts to bring those responsible for this crime to justice.
The EU will remain closely focussed on this issue and its implications.

While Boris Johnson may spout off the cuff lies while giving TV interviews, when it comes to any formal document or statement – in parliament, the Security Council, NATO and now the EU – the British government always reverts to this precise formulation “of a type developed by Russia” which attempts to disguise the fact that they have no evidence the material is made in Russia. Many laboratories can produce “novichoks”.

The EU statement very obviously eschews the British government line that Russia is evidently to blame. “The European Union takes extremely seriously the UK government’s assessment” is a double edged statement. Of course such a profound accusation must be taken seriously – whether the accusation redounds eventually to the discredit of the accused and accuser is a different question. There is something patronising about the “takes extremely seriously” line.

As in “we take the views of our customers extremely seriously. Unfortunately none of our agents is available right now, please continue to hold…” followed by thirty minutes of jingle then cuts off. I am told the French text sounds still more disdainful.

Apparently the BBC’s Eddie Mair on the PM programme on BBC Radio 4 today did take up the subject of the peculiar wording “of a type developed by Russia”, though without reaching any conclusion. He mentioned me by name. Now both the UK’s main political radio programmes – PM and Today – have mentioned me by name and discussed my ideas, but neither has given me a chance to reply. Mair is interesting – he first interviewed me on Radio Tay in 1984. He was then a brilliant young school-leaver who looked 12 years old, and came from the Whitfield housing scheme in Dundee, then one of the most deprived and toughest estates in the entire UK. It is a shame that his talent and energy have been wasted in the BBC, but his background does perhaps lead him to go outside the Establishment consensus sometimes.

As it is, here I am on some “fringe” media outlets today, which there are increasing calls from MPs of all major parties to close down, so that non-Establishment views can be completely suppressed.

March 20th: On Being a Dissenting Voice in 2018 • 1,000 Words

I just thought I might give you a little taste of what it means to your personal life to express dissent from the government line in the UK in 2018. Let me start with this combined effort from the UK’s most popular website, Guido Fawkes, which fanatically supports the government, and the Blairite crew at “The Guardian”.

The red ink is original.

Now it is true that, when I was sacked as Ambassador by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for blowing the whistle on extraordinary rendition and the Blair government’s misuse of intelligence from torture, I went into a terrible depression and voluntarily spent ten days or so in St Thomas Hospital (not a mental illness facility) for treatment. I have never tried to keep this secret, indeed it is a major part of my memoir “Murder in Samarkand”. It is also true, as I have always acknowledged, that I have had other less serious depressive episodes treated at home and been diagnosed as bipolar since I was 20.

That we stigmatise anybody who has ever had a mental illness, write them off and view their views, on anything, as invalid, is an attitude I had hoped we had moved past last century. Indeed, if this hatchet job was done on anybody writing within the Overton window, then the Guardian would be dedicating editorials to condemning it. We have in fact moved to the old Soviet position, where disagreement with the official line equals mental illness. I quite confess this sort of thing does in fact hurt me – if you cut me, do I not bleed?

The use of the term “conspiracy theorist” has been used to denigrate my views, ever since Jack Straw as Foreign Secretary lied to Parliament denying that the UK ever obtained intelligence from torture and denying the existence of the extraordinary rendition programme, which I was supposed to have fantasised. Anyone interested in this history can watch this series of videos of my evidence to a Parliamentary Committee on the subject. It explains why I start nowadays from a position of being so hated by the British state and its acolytes, and also of course enables you to judge for yourself whether I should be ignored as insane.

https://youtu.be/LF9spgagSHI

Ever since then, the state and corporate media have described me as a “conspiracy theorist”. Even though there is now acceptance that extraordinary renditiion did happen and presumably they, somewhere inside, know I was telling the truth. I find people are taken aback to discover, for example, that I broadly accept that there was no US government involvement in 9/11 (other than minimising the Saudi role) and 9/11 discussion is banned on this blog – [warning it still is].

I cannot in fact conceive of a more outlandish conspiracy theory than that the Russian government secretly manufactured and stockpiled novichoks, hidden from the OPCW, and secretly trained assassins, only to blow the whole operation on a retired spy they let out of jail ages ago. Yet nobody calls Boris Johnson a “conspiracy theorist” for positing that.

But the abuse is not confined to what people publish about me. I receive some extremely unpleasant emails of which this is an example:

I do hope Mr Temis can get money back on his anger management sessions. But there has been rather a lot of this, including some by old fashioned mail. which I find myself prodding suspiciously before opening :-).

There is of course an open effort to extend the term “anti-semitic” to embrace any criticism of Israel. It is also particularly used by Blairites to attack anybody taking any position seen as supportive of Jeremy Corbyn. I am not in the least anti-semitic. Jewish people have made a disproportionate, indeed magnificent, contribution to the world in the fields of science, music, literature, commerce and others. That does not alter the fact that Israel is a rogue state when it comes to chemical weapons, the subject currently under discussion. It refuses to ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention and destroy its chemical weapons stocks, and refuses to join the OPCW.

Plainly someone attacked the Skripals. In stating that it is not the case that Russia was the only state who could have done it, I have included Israel amongst other possibilities. Israel might wish to frame Russia for the deed, as Russian actions in Syria have severely conflicted with Israeli ambitions in Syria and Lebanon. But I have never said it was, or was most likely to be, Israel – it could be the CIA framing Russia, it could be a non-state actor entirely (which I am inclined to think most likely – this could come from those close to a victim of Skripal’s treachery, though I still think the Orbis intelligence connection has been overlooked).

Some of the most vitriolic abuse has come from state and corporate media journalists. Falsely categorising me as an insane racist allows them to ignore any challenge to the establishment line on Salisbury and absolves them, in their own minds, from any dereliction of duty in not questioning it.

In a chilling example of the way they move to crush dissent, here a prominent Blairite corporate media journalist, James Bloodworth, attempts to ensure that consideration of other possibilities than the government line is not carried even in the private domain. He harasses and bullies an individual attempting to force him to accept Mr Bloodworth’s version of what I had said, rather than what I had actually said. When Mr Law (who as a lecturer in philosophy presumably has an attachment to intellectual honesty) refuses, Bloodworth sanctions him by pulling out of his literary festival.

It is very difficult to understand what is happening in the UK today, but when the BBC on its flagship news programme holds a discussion of the Salisbury attack under a huge photo-shopped picture of the leader of the opposition in a Russian hat standing outside the Kremlin, it is plain a fundamental shift has happened in society. The Salisbury attack has perhaps taught us something massively more important than any of the stuff about chemical weapons, and that is that Britain is further along the road to becoming an authoritarian state than we had realised.

(Republished from CraigMurray.org.uk by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Purpose of this affair to put the blame on Russia. To point and convince the world that Russia is the only one evil in the world. But than it is only a flee bite.
    Unfortunately flee bites will not defeat Russia. Results of this will be that they will convince some people who do not have in reality any influence on the future events.
    But the negative side will be that it eliminate the option of surprise attack because it will convince Russia about necessity develop more defensive and even offensive measures.

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  2. Seraphim says:

    The scam must be so obvious and damaging that even a ‘believer’ in the other obvious scams (Litvinenko) and the ‘illegal’ occupation of Crimea and ‘parts of Georgia’ must disassociate from it. I think that he might know more than simple conjectures about the role of the third party he alludes cautiously to, the party which has not only the motives to do it, but also the means and opportunities to operate freely under the radar which never sees it.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    The believers -- and particularly the opportunistic scum-in-charge (Theresa May and Boris Johnson) -- will never disassociate from the stupid story because it was hatched by "deciders" and their incompetent advisors.
    Here is a "letter published in the Times on the 16th March, from Dr. Stephen Davies (Consultant in Emergency Medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust):" https://robinwestenra.blogspot.com/2018/03/developments-in-scripal-caseno-patients.html
    “Sir, further to your report (Poison Exposure Leaves Nearly 40 needing Treatment), may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    -- Should Boris, Theresa, Diaper-Boy Williamson, Clair Perry and other "experts" be immediately tarred and feathered for their criminal lies and insults inflicted on Russain Federation, a nuclear power?
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  3. Alan Reid says:

    Here is one thing i noted about this meme… In the American film ‘The sum of all fears’ the term novochok is used…”novochok binary nerve agent” … Now if you are going to lie, coat tailing on a BS yank movie is going to have advantages is it not? How many millions saw that movie? How many other movies are used to pre-imbed this type of predictive programming? More than a few is my guess…. The instant i heard the ‘novochok’ claim i immediately recalled that movie and the terror it had gathered into it’s celluloid.

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    • Replies: @RobinG

    "How many other movies are used to pre-imbed this type of predictive programming? "
     
    The virally popular TV series "24" was commissioned by the CIA to psychologically imbed the "justifiable" use of torture.

    That show premiered on November 6, 2001. Wasn't it conceived, written, cast and (at least the pilot probably filmed) prior to 911...? Coincidence, or more circumstantial evidence of an inside job.
    , @El Dato
    Reminder that "The Rock" produced a fantasy depiction of binary nerve agent transport container ("hollow glass balls") that was used as "Saddam fact" a bit later.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rock_(film)#Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program
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  4. A great series of articles, strongly recommend.

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  5. In my opinion there is not a shred of evidence that Russia did it, and there is no motive.
    The motive is the other way round, it fits in the climate of demonising Russia.
    Maybe the prelude to war, the last one, not a human being will survive.

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  6. Renoman says:

    Just the usual suspects telling the usual lies so they can start another war. It’s what they do.

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  7. Randal says:

    Great to see this promoted at Unz. It’s a vital story at the moment, which shines a very unflattering light on the UK government and should make anyone foolish enough to think the problems that were exposed over the manipulation of the country into the Iraq war in 2003 were particular to the government of Tony Blair or to that issue, think again. The truth is that the misrepresentation of intelligence, the blustering suppression of dissent by bombastic pseudo-patriotism, and the lockstep mainstream media support for it, are all endemic to the UK (and US, mutatis mutandis).

    Murray stands at the opposite end of the political spectrum from me, and we would agree about very little outside of this kind of thing. But I salute his courage and persistence in standing up to the inevitable bullying and pressures that are brought to bear on people raising this kind of thing. Not as perniciously thuggish as the pressures placed upon race realist and English nationalist dissidents, but perhaps more menacing in some ways.

    It is interesting to note that Murray – a longstanding UK dissident who has been making trouble for the authorities publicly since at least 2004, states (see Bothered by Midgies, linked above) that: “In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack“. That partly reflects the shame he has brought upon the few members of our mainstream media (so called journalists working for the BBC, Sky, Guardian, Telegraph, Times, Independent (sic!), etc) still able to feel it, by doing their job when they had notably failed. It also reflects the importance of the work he is doing.

    The idea that Russia is behind this attack is implausible, but that did not prevent the UK government from launching into an aggressively impertinent confrontation of Russia, and then using the Russian government’s understandably annoyed response as supposed further evidence of supposed Russian guilt. After an initial scepticism the usual US sphere suspects (the US, France, Germany) lined up behind the British government’s spurious feigned outrage, presumably having been reassured that the UK government would not seek to invoke NATO’s Article 5). The confrontation they have initiated will be far more costly to us all in the long run than the crime itself (grim though that has surely been for the individuals affected), and so it is vital for those few who can see through the blizzard of propaganda to continue to rip holes in the UK government’s increasingly threadbare case.

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  8. Randal says:

    The UK government’s case, such as it was, when it issued its disgraceful “ultimatum” to Russia was basically fourfold, as set out in this BBC piece:

    Poisoned ex-spy: Why does UK think it was Russia?

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    2 There is a motive for Russia to have carried out the attack – killing a traitor.

    3 There is supposedly a “track record” of Russia committing such crimes.

    4 There’s no other hypothesis.

    These points are all bunk, as set out below, and the information obtained by Murray has helped hugely in establishing that fact. But none of the refutations is remotely complicated or hard to spot, and any honest journalist should have been confronting the government with them from day one.

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    As Murray has highlighted, the most the British government can say is that the substance they allege was used was “of a type developed by Russia”, and in fact it could have been produced in any other country over the past ten years and was in fact produced in Iran in 2016 under OPCW supervision. So the fact that it was originally developed in Russia decades ago is evidence of nothing.

    2 There is a motive for Russia to have carried out the attack – killing a traitor.

    In fact Skipal was a spy who was unmasked by the Russians, tried, convicted and imprisoned. His offence was clearly not considered particularly serious, as treasons go, because he was only given 13 years in prison, and he was clearly considered no longer a threat because he was subsequently exchanged for some Russian spies.

    3 There is supposedly a “track record” of Russia committing such crimes.

    There is no track record of the Russians killing exchanged former spies. Indeed British intelligence effectively admitted that because they were quite happy for Skripal to live openly under his own name, with his address in the public domain and no protection given to him, unlike for instance organised crime witnesses who do actually face enemies with a track record of killing them.

    4 There’s no other hypothesis.

    Of course there are plenty of other hypotheses with at least as much plausibility as the dubious case against Russia. Any of the governments seeking to promote and foment confrontation of Russia, over Ukraine or Syria, or just for internal political benefits, had a motive for committing this crime, and doing it in the method (a “wmd” attack on British soil) guaranteed to create the maximum hysteria and propaganda value. That brings the US, Israel, the Ukraine and the UK into the frame, all of whom would certainly have had the capability to manufacture the substance. Then there are issues around the shadowy criminal and political elements with whom Skripal was potentially involved, from Russian mafia to the US security state figures currently mixed up with British intelligence in the ongoing anti-Russian/anti-Trump nonsense.

    In reality there is no shortage of alternative hypotheses. It’s just that the BBC like the rest of the mainstream media failed to mention any of them. As usual, acting as stenographers for the powerful, rather than agents of truth.

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    • Agree: for-the-record
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    There is one 'track record', Litvinov, killed by polonium.
    What secret service would be so dumb as to use this, pointing immediately to state murder ?
    Accidents, and suicides are quiet methods for keeping people silent for all times.

    The Ukrainian pilot that, according to Russia, by accident shot down MH17, just committed suicide.
    I wonder if he was suicided.

    Sensational murders, or attempted murders, have quite different purposes.
    Blaming someone.

    Who believes that Arafat was not murdered, does anyone believe that the Diana accident was an accident, who believes the Hess and Kelly suicides ?
    Why was Palme murdered, who indeed thinks that Anna Lyndh was killed accidentally, that Barschel committed suicide, that Mölleman died accidentally ?
    And so on, and so forth.
    , @Verymuchalive

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    As Murray has highlighted, the most the British government can say is that the substance they allege was used was “of a type developed by Russia”, and in fact it could have been produced in any other country over the past ten years and was in fact produced in Iran in 2016 under OPCW supervision. So the fact that it was originally developed in Russia decades ago is evidence of nothing.

     

    I agree with you very strongly apart from the above. Novichok was developed in the late 1970s and 80s in the Soviet Union. In particular, it is highly likely it was developed in the Nukus Institute, Uzbekhistan. After a period of chaos in the early 1990s - when an indeterminately large amount of the material may have been sold or dispersed - the Institute was taken over by the US Government, who were still involved in 1999, according to Dr Richard North.
    This presupposes that Novichok exists at all. It may be a KGB propaganda operation whose aim was to convince the West that the Soviet Union had developed a new wonder weapon.
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  9. Considering the Brits dragged us into two World Wars and a bunch of lesser but nevertheless costly messes, why the f*** do we listen to, much less believe, anything they say that points even in the general direction of conflict with Russia?

    Does anyone in American leadership even fathom that the UK have a big chip on their shoulder for us knocking them off the top of the list of great empires and adding insult to injury by essentially forcing them to dismantle their empire, and then pushing them into a vassal state of the EU so we could better manage them as but one of many vassals?

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    • Replies: @Tommo
    I thought the Japs dragged you into ww2. And a bunch of lesser messes? Are you serious?

    https://popularresistance.org/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-in-37-nations-since-wwii/
    , @Twodees Partain
    It appears to me that the UK's influence on US policy comes from Rothschild banking interests rather than from the UK's government. UK politicians are every bit as absurdly vapid as their US colleagues. In cases like this one (the chemical weapon accusation by May and Johnson) the Brit politicians look exactly like McCain or Pelosi, throwing a tantrum instead of presenting a case for the agenda they have been instructed to push.

    The same hand is inside both sock puppets, UK and US.
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  10. skrik says:

    For what it’s worth and if I may, a copy of a comment found on craigmurray.org.uk

    « Arnie Saccnuson
    March 19, 2018 at 09:37

    Plot Twist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_Back:_Retribution
    Word search Novichok and look at the dates it aired Our Rupert has such wonderful insight.
    In case you missed it https://youtu.be/g9MBh1oM2Jo »

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  11. n230099 says:

    So who, since both have titled pieces using it pertaining to this subject, first came up with the phrase “Russian to Judgement” …Craig Murray or Justin Raimondo?

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    • Replies: @Randal
    Most likely both came up with it independently, surely? It's not particularly sophisticated or hard to come up with.

    Why does it matter?
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  12. CF says:

    Am I wrong in thinking that there are thousands of Russians living in Germany, USA, Italy, Cyprus and so on but they are only poisoned in the UK?

    If I am mistaken on this then I apologies.

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  13. This is an Oligarch/Miller/Steele/Orbis carry on. All trails lead to HRC.

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  14. Randal says:
    @n230099
    So who, since both have titled pieces using it pertaining to this subject, first came up with the phrase "Russian to Judgement" ...Craig Murray or Justin Raimondo?

    Most likely both came up with it independently, surely? It’s not particularly sophisticated or hard to come up with.

    Why does it matter?

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  15. @Randal
    The UK government's case, such as it was, when it issued its disgraceful "ultimatum" to Russia was basically fourfold, as set out in this BBC piece:

    Poisoned ex-spy: Why does UK think it was Russia?

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    2 There is a motive for Russia to have carried out the attack - killing a traitor.

    3 There is supposedly a "track record" of Russia committing such crimes.

    4 There's no other hypothesis.

    These points are all bunk, as set out below, and the information obtained by Murray has helped hugely in establishing that fact. But none of the refutations is remotely complicated or hard to spot, and any honest journalist should have been confronting the government with them from day one.

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    As Murray has highlighted, the most the British government can say is that the substance they allege was used was "of a type developed by Russia", and in fact it could have been produced in any other country over the past ten years and was in fact produced in Iran in 2016 under OPCW supervision. So the fact that it was originally developed in Russia decades ago is evidence of nothing.

    2 There is a motive for Russia to have carried out the attack - killing a traitor.

    In fact Skipal was a spy who was unmasked by the Russians, tried, convicted and imprisoned. His offence was clearly not considered particularly serious, as treasons go, because he was only given 13 years in prison, and he was clearly considered no longer a threat because he was subsequently exchanged for some Russian spies.

    3 There is supposedly a "track record" of Russia committing such crimes.

    There is no track record of the Russians killing exchanged former spies. Indeed British intelligence effectively admitted that because they were quite happy for Skripal to live openly under his own name, with his address in the public domain and no protection given to him, unlike for instance organised crime witnesses who do actually face enemies with a track record of killing them.

    4 There's no other hypothesis.

    Of course there are plenty of other hypotheses with at least as much plausibility as the dubious case against Russia. Any of the governments seeking to promote and foment confrontation of Russia, over Ukraine or Syria, or just for internal political benefits, had a motive for committing this crime, and doing it in the method (a "wmd" attack on British soil) guaranteed to create the maximum hysteria and propaganda value. That brings the US, Israel, the Ukraine and the UK into the frame, all of whom would certainly have had the capability to manufacture the substance. Then there are issues around the shadowy criminal and political elements with whom Skripal was potentially involved, from Russian mafia to the US security state figures currently mixed up with British intelligence in the ongoing anti-Russian/anti-Trump nonsense.

    In reality there is no shortage of alternative hypotheses. It's just that the BBC like the rest of the mainstream media failed to mention any of them. As usual, acting as stenographers for the powerful, rather than agents of truth.

    There is one ‘track record’, Litvinov, killed by polonium.
    What secret service would be so dumb as to use this, pointing immediately to state murder ?
    Accidents, and suicides are quiet methods for keeping people silent for all times.

    The Ukrainian pilot that, according to Russia, by accident shot down MH17, just committed suicide.
    I wonder if he was suicided.

    Sensational murders, or attempted murders, have quite different purposes.
    Blaming someone.

    Who believes that Arafat was not murdered, does anyone believe that the Diana accident was an accident, who believes the Hess and Kelly suicides ?
    Why was Palme murdered, who indeed thinks that Anna Lyndh was killed accidentally, that Barschel committed suicide, that Mölleman died accidentally ?
    And so on, and so forth.

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    • Replies: @Randal

    There is one ‘track record’, Litvinov, killed by polonium.
     
    Even if one chooses to believe the pretty dubious story concocted to blame that event on the Russian government, it doesn't represent any "track record" relevant to the Skripal case. Litvinenko was a former KGB/FSB thug who had found himself on the wrong side of a Kremlin power struggle and fled justice. He was not, like Skripal, a previously unmasked, tried, convicted, jailed and exchanged former spy.

    Apples and oranges.
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  16. The Zionist drive for a Zionist controlled one world government is in overdrive and to see just how far down the road the U.S. is to a one world dictatorship, just read the 10 planks of the communist manifesto, we are almost there.

    The Zionist war plans always start with demonizing the target nation and this is accomplished via the Zionist dominated MSM and the Zionist controlled U.S. gov and with lies being the currency of the transaction , soon black is white, up is down, and wrong is right in the Zionist playbook and in this case Russia is the target.

    The lies being told about Russia by the Zionists knows no bounds and in fact is beyond the pale as lie after lie is spewed out on the Zionist controlled MSM. The Zionist dual citizen neocon warmongers have a goal of war with Russia and it looks like the goal is within reach with all the signs that it will truly be Armageddon.

    The proof that zionists control the U.S. gov is the fact that Israel and the deep state did 911 and got away with it, that is control in spades.

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    • Agree: Z-man
    • Replies: @Z-man
    Here here, bravo Desert Fox.
    Like I've said before the 'Neocons wet dream' is to have a new war between the 'West' and Russia.
    , @annamaria
    The ziocons in their hubris are not able to factor in the Russians' memory for Jewish Bolsheviks' stupendous (a)moral flexibility. Ziocons (the Lobby and Friends of Israel) still have an illusion that Russians do not understand their modus operandi. Fools. The fables of "eternal victimhood," "choseness," and "superior morality" work fine for Texan fundamentalists and congressional whores but not for Russians, who expect the worst form the tribe and are not surprised by Ziocons' acts of monumental stupidy, including the stupidity of Skripal affair. Theresa and Boris are just doormats for the "eternal victims."
    , @Kolo
    Well said as always
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  17. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    How do we know the Russians didn’t pay someone in the “British Police” to add another layer to the false flag-media paradigm by pulling the ultimate inside job?

    We can suspect this from the media’s strategic propaganda divide, either the ‘Russia did it’ or the ‘Russia didn’t do it’ camps. Let’s face the facts, there is no James Bond style hit possible without the all important media playing up the James Bond style hit – otherwise you’d never know or care.

    Russia may come out ahead in the all important public popularity contest which is entirely up to the media. Each new incident evokes a great deal of sympathy for the underdog – ‘Poor Russia, blamed by the usual morons everytime’.

    Agitprop requires a few bodies now and again for maximum realism. The credulous sheep are herded in the direction of what the masters want them to feel is important with a false divide thrown in to make it more sporting.

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    • Troll: RobinG
    • Replies: @Kolo
    Moron alert
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  18. Randal says:

    Here’s an interesting related piece that was linked to in Craig Murray’s comments page. It deals with the quote by the UK government, in support of their accusation of Russia, of Putin’s words in 2010, when he said: “Traitors will kick the bucket, believe me. Those other folks betrayed their friends, their brother in arms, whatever they got in exchange for it, those 30 pieces of silver they were given, they will choke on them.” The context as stated by the UK government was “when we think about who benefits” [from the attack on the Skripals], and the clear intention was to try to create the impression that Putin had threatened to kill traitors, which is of course exactly how this quote was subsequently misrepresented.

    There is of course a familiar “track record”, or “pattern of behaviour” here, when one considers how Israel lobbies of various kinds intentionally misrepresented Iranian words about the Zionist regime “vanishing from the pages of history” as a threat to attack Israel.

    The piece is long, and I’ve posted it below for reference because I do not know if the website in question will necessarily be around for long. Hopefully the moderators will put it under a [More] tag so it remains, but does not clog up the thread. There are embedded reference links in the text at the source.

    https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/40900/did-putin-threaten-to-have-traitors-assassinated

    [MORE]

    No, on the occasion in question Putin did not say that traitors would be killed. The quote in your question comes from a March 5, 2018 broadcast of BBC Newsnight. It is a concatenation of three soundbites from a three-minute statement in which Putin says that Russia no longer kills traitors. The soundbites come from the last paragraph of his statement in which Putin paints a melodramatic picture of traitors as broken men living out their remaining days in abject misery leading to an early death.

    The actual fate of enemies of the Russian state is beyond the scope of the question and this answer. Instead we will discuss the beliefs on this subject which Putin was attempting to instill. He was inviting the Russian people to picture traitors dying friendless and alone Men Without a Country in apartments strewn with empty vodka bottles.

    The translation in the BBC broadcast alters the tone of Putin’s statement and broadens the meaning of his words to the point that, when they are read in the style used by Western comedians portraying Putin, they seem to convey veiled threats of violence.

    The Story Spreads

    The next day (March 6th) the composite soundbite from the BBC broadcast appeared at the head of article on the website of The Sun, now shorn of all even the context provided in the BBC broadcast. The article describes the statement as a “threat to ‘choke traitors’”, thereby changing the BBC’s poor translation into an unambiguously false one.

    The day after that (March 7th) the Independent put up an article with its own version of the BBC video. The article incorrectly identifies it as a video which “re-emerged online” and describes Putin’s words as “apparent death threats”.

    Also on March 7th the Telegraph described Putin’s words unambiguously as a “death threat”. This despite the fact that in 2010 they had reported on the very same statement and found exactly the opposite meaning in it. What is more, now Putin’s words were not simply spoken close to the time of Sergei Skripal’s release, they are now actually about him.

    On March 7th on Good Morning Britain Piers Morgan asked Alexander Nekrassov (former Kremlin adviser) what Putin had meant by “kick the bucket”. They each considered the other’s interpretation of the phrase ridiculous. (Not surprising since Mr. Morgan was interpreting the Putin’s words in the BBC’s poor translation while Mr. Nekrassov was presumably interpreting Mr. Putin’s actual words which, at least for this phrase, can be heard in the BBC broadcast.) Neither one of them seemed to know the context of the quote.

    On March 12th the video was mentioned in an editorial in the New York Times. The editorial links to the March 7th article in the Independent and quotes the translation from the video. The editors seem to have obtained some information about the TV show during which the statement was made, but this is a bit garbled too. In particular their description of the question is incorrect and they make no mention of the overall import of Putin’s answer.

    Earlier Western Press Coverage of Putin’s Statement

    Putin’s statement attracted some press coverage in the West at the time he made it. At the time the press had the full text of the statement and did not interpret it as a threat against traitors:

    •Vladimir Putin: Russian secret services don’t kill traitors (The Telegraph)

    •Vladimir Putin says Russian secret service no longer kills traitors (Mirror)

    •Putin: Russia’s Secret Services Don’t Kill Traitors (NBC News)

    •Putin: We Don’t Kill Traitors Anymore (CBS News)

    Background of the Statement

    Putin refers to the exposure and arrest of agents of the Illegals Program on June 27, 2010. The Illegals Program (which is the name given it by the US Department of Justice) planted Russian sleeper agents in the United States under cover as private citizens.

    In July of 2010 the ten spies arrested in the United States were exchanged for three Russian nationals who had been convicted of high treason for espionage one of whom was Sergei Skripal. (This appears to be his only connection to the affair.) In August the deported Russian spies were “warmly greeted” by Vladimir Putin who “led them in singing patriotic songs”.

    After the program was exposed, the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service began an investigation in an attempt to determine whether the agents had been betrayed. Suspicion fell on one Colonel Aleksander Poteyev who was in charge of undercover spying in the US. He is thought to have fled Russia a few days before the arrest of the undercover agents. Where he is now is unclear, but the opinion in the Russian press is that he went to the US, that his children are also in the US, and that he may or may not have died in 2016.

    The Statement

    In the quote in question Putin is commenting on this affair. He is speaking during the program Direct Line: A Conversation with Vladimir Putin in December 2010. Direct Line is a marathon ask-me-anything-style show which he does once a year. The broadcast is on Youtube (the question is asked at about 3:12:15 and Putin concludes his answer at about 3:15:15) and there is a written transcript. Here is an English translation. The parts included in some form in the quote from your question are in bold:

    M. Sittel: Vladimir Vladimirovich, I’m taking a question from the website, this time it is a personal one. It is clearly written by someone who loves memoirs. “When you spoke of the recent spy scandal, you noted: traitors do not live long. The leaders of many countries, as know from recollections, have signed orders for the the liquidation of the enemies of the homeland oversees. The French have done so, the Israelis. Have you, as the head of state, had occasion to make such a decision in the past?”

    V.Putin: I do not think that the leaders of state signed such orders personally even in the past. That is the work of the special services. And during Soviet times, in Stalin’s time, it is no secret, there were special subunits which carried out, including (these were military subunits, it was not all they did), which when necessary carried out such assignments: the liquidation of traitors. Such subunits were themselves liquidated long ago.

    It is known that actual many, say the Israeli special services used such methods, yes, all things considered, as for today, far from all have given this up even now. The Russian special services do not use such means.

    With regard to traitors, they will curl up on their own, I assure you. That’s because…Here we have this latest instance of betrayal in which they exposed a group of our illegals. And these are officers! Do you get it? Officers. A man betrayed his friends, his comrades in arms. These are people who laid their entire lives on the altar of patriotism. What is it like to learn a language at native level, leave behind one’s relatives, not to be able to bury one’s loved ones? Think about that for a minute! Someone has given his entire life to serve his homeland and now this brute comes along who betrays people like that. How is he going to live with that for the rest of his life? How will he look his children in the eye, the swine?! Whatever went on there, whatever 30 pieces of silver those people may have gotten, they will stick in their throat, I assure you. To spend your whole life trying to keep out of view, to be unable to talk with your loved ones, it means that someone who chooses such a fate will be regretting it a thousand times over.

    So the quotation in the form you cite is garbled and has been interpreted in a manner which is at odds with the original context which is a specific denial that Russia assassinates traitors.

    Notes on Translation

    The word “загнуться” famously translated “kick the bucket” literally means “to curl up” or “to curl down”. What it means here is open to interpretation. The translation “kick the bucket” can be found in Wiktionary as a possible translation of a very informal use of the word. @bashbino’s assertion that such use refers to decline and death rather than sudden death is probably correct. I suspect it is an allusion to the way plants whither and die. In 2010 the phrase was translated “they will croak all by themselves” (The Telegraph, NBC News)

    In translating “прятаться” as “trying to keep out of view” I am trying to leave the question of whether the traitor is hiding from assassins or simply from people he cannot look in the eye up to the reader’s interpretation. This word can refer to social avoidance such as the behavior of a child who hides behind his mother’s skirt.

    The phrase “колом станут у них в горле” refers to difficulty swallowing due to revulsion, not difficulty breathing. To make this clear I have translated it “will stick in their throat”.

    Russian Press References

    Articles on the Illegals affair:

    •https://lenta.ru/articles/2011/06/28/poteev/

    •https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1536406

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  19. Randal says:
    @jilles dykstra
    There is one 'track record', Litvinov, killed by polonium.
    What secret service would be so dumb as to use this, pointing immediately to state murder ?
    Accidents, and suicides are quiet methods for keeping people silent for all times.

    The Ukrainian pilot that, according to Russia, by accident shot down MH17, just committed suicide.
    I wonder if he was suicided.

    Sensational murders, or attempted murders, have quite different purposes.
    Blaming someone.

    Who believes that Arafat was not murdered, does anyone believe that the Diana accident was an accident, who believes the Hess and Kelly suicides ?
    Why was Palme murdered, who indeed thinks that Anna Lyndh was killed accidentally, that Barschel committed suicide, that Mölleman died accidentally ?
    And so on, and so forth.

    There is one ‘track record’, Litvinov, killed by polonium.

    Even if one chooses to believe the pretty dubious story concocted to blame that event on the Russian government, it doesn’t represent any “track record” relevant to the Skripal case. Litvinenko was a former KGB/FSB thug who had found himself on the wrong side of a Kremlin power struggle and fled justice. He was not, like Skripal, a previously unmasked, tried, convicted, jailed and exchanged former spy.

    Apples and oranges.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    The words were not for nothing between ' '.
    In the Netherlands this means that one does not believe the 'fact'.
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  20. Kiza says:

    Who says that there is no proof that Putin did it?

    Boris Johnson personally found a ripped off shirt next to the bench of Scripals and “Vlad WOS HIER” spray painted on the nearest wall.

    Seriously, there was apparently an interesting letter from the Salisbury hospital to The Times:
    Sir, Further to your report (“Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment”, March 14),******may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning.******Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    Stephen Davies
    Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust

    If this letter is genuine then there has never been any nerve agent in Salisbury.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    According to the official story (which transpired only today, at least to me), it was administered through Skripal's car's ventilation system. Apparently the Skripals left the car after they started noticing the effects of the poison. Only someone who opened the car door may have been exposed to it, and I suspect that's what might have happened to the policeman.
    , @Curmudgeon
    Here's the rub.
    A hospital clinical laboratory would produce a toxicology report that listed chemicals and their concentrations in a sample. No test, in a clinical laboratory, would identify Novochock, only compounds and elements. The results of the test would be used to treat the patient.

    So, it is possible for the letter to be both accurate, and inaccurate. The physician may not have known if there was a "nerve agent", as no test would tell him that it was a "nerve agent". That raises other questions:
    - If the alleged drug was "military grade", how did Skripal survive long enough to make it to hospital?
    - Weapons such as "Novochok" almost always have a specific antidote. Where would a hospital physician get it?
    - How is it that no hospital staff have been "sources" to confirm or deny that the Skripals are actually in the hospital?

    This narrative has more holes than a Swiss cheese.
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  21. Obviously, it is Germany that is responsible for the chemical weapons attacks in Syria.

    After all, we could correctly say that ‘chlorine gas, a type of chemical weapon developed in Germany’ was used in Syria.

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  22. …hence Moscow’s diplomatic jab – thanking ‘West Jerusalem’ for not jumping UK’s bandwagon.

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  23. This is quite a climbdown from what Mr Murray has been claiming for the last few days on his own website and also from the claims of other authors that the nerve agent actually came from Porton Down. Mr Murray claimed that he had “received confirmation from a well-placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve agent as being of Russian manufacture”. Does anybody really believe that a Foreign Office official would violate the Official Secrets Act, risking both his career and a prison sentence, just to leak top secret information to someone who has a grudge against the FCO? And if he actually had such a source, why would Mr Murray blow his cover by revealing the source’s existence? I’m not surprised that those absurd claims have now been removed but the fact that they were made at all undermines Mr Murray’s credibility. That he then rambles off into (yet another!), wholly absurd, attempt to discredit Russiagate simply reinforces his lack of credibility.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    This is quite a climbdown from what Mr Murray has been claiming for the last few days on his own website and also from the claims of other authors that the nerve agent actually came from Porton Down.
     
    I think you are a liar. I have followed Murray's blog closely during recent days and and have never read there the statement that that you allege Murray made and then deleted as to the source of the agent responsible for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and others.
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  24. https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/1806392/akkoord-eu-en-londen-over-overgangsperiode

    And all of a sudden there is a GB EU agreement over a trade transition period.
    I wondered why May set up the poison gas murder show.
    I now wonder if this show was the price she was asked to pay, making GB the enemy of Russia, preventing GB trade with Russia.
    It reminds me of a new maffia member, asked to commit a crime, to show that he’s real criminal.

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  25. @Randal

    There is one ‘track record’, Litvinov, killed by polonium.
     
    Even if one chooses to believe the pretty dubious story concocted to blame that event on the Russian government, it doesn't represent any "track record" relevant to the Skripal case. Litvinenko was a former KGB/FSB thug who had found himself on the wrong side of a Kremlin power struggle and fled justice. He was not, like Skripal, a previously unmasked, tried, convicted, jailed and exchanged former spy.

    Apples and oranges.

    The words were not for nothing between ‘ ‘.
    In the Netherlands this means that one does not believe the ‘fact’.

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  26. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Michael Kenny
    This is quite a climbdown from what Mr Murray has been claiming for the last few days on his own website and also from the claims of other authors that the nerve agent actually came from Porton Down. Mr Murray claimed that he had “received confirmation from a well-placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve agent as being of Russian manufacture”. Does anybody really believe that a Foreign Office official would violate the Official Secrets Act, risking both his career and a prison sentence, just to leak top secret information to someone who has a grudge against the FCO? And if he actually had such a source, why would Mr Murray blow his cover by revealing the source’s existence? I’m not surprised that those absurd claims have now been removed but the fact that they were made at all undermines Mr Murray’s credibility. That he then rambles off into (yet another!), wholly absurd, attempt to discredit Russiagate simply reinforces his lack of credibility.

    This is quite a climbdown from what Mr Murray has been claiming for the last few days on his own website and also from the claims of other authors that the nerve agent actually came from Porton Down.

    I think you are a liar. I have followed Murray’s blog closely during recent days and and have never read there the statement that that you allege Murray made and then deleted as to the source of the agent responsible for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and others.

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Michael Kenny is a well known liar and troll.
    , @Kiza
    I followed Mr Murray’s blog and comments by the hour and I vouch that this troll is lying. And, BTW, by his warped logic there should be no whistleblowers at all - they would all be too scared of jail. All scumbags self-project.
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  27. Read More
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  28. TT says:

    Whatever UK gov are splurging out in outright stupidity, what does UK gov actually trying to achieve in this sudden high profile false flag?

    1. Precursor to start another WW3 to weaken USNato & Russia, so that it can rise up from their bodies to become another empire again without sink into irrelevant entity after Brexit? Conspiracy theory like WW1 & 2.

    2. To push UK parliament support in joining imminent Syria confrontation with Russia. Most likely factor.

    3. To further the case for US plan attack of Syria SAA with chemical false flag, that Russia actually is the culprit behind Assad chemical warfare, and invoking Nato treaty as UK is under WMD attack.

    4. Some suggest its to ensure UK cannot has any FTA with Russia after Brexit. But this seem unnecessary.

    5. To get approval on higher budget for MIC, esp its nuke & submarines renewal program.

    6. Part of UK ongoing clowns circus show. So just get entertained.

    What else?

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  29. Z-man says:
    @DESERT FOX
    The Zionist drive for a Zionist controlled one world government is in overdrive and to see just how far down the road the U.S. is to a one world dictatorship, just read the 10 planks of the communist manifesto, we are almost there.

    The Zionist war plans always start with demonizing the target nation and this is accomplished via the Zionist dominated MSM and the Zionist controlled U.S. gov and with lies being the currency of the transaction , soon black is white, up is down, and wrong is right in the Zionist playbook and in this case Russia is the target.

    The lies being told about Russia by the Zionists knows no bounds and in fact is beyond the pale as lie after lie is spewed out on the Zionist controlled MSM. The Zionist dual citizen neocon warmongers have a goal of war with Russia and it looks like the goal is within reach with all the signs that it will truly be Armageddon.

    The proof that zionists control the U.S. gov is the fact that Israel and the deep state did 911 and got away with it, that is control in spades.

    Here here, bravo Desert Fox.
    Like I’ve said before the ‘Neocons wet dream’ is to have a new war between the ‘West’ and Russia.

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  30. evidence.

    That would be nice.

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  31. @Kiza
    Who says that there is no proof that Putin did it?

    Boris Johnson personally found a ripped off shirt next to the bench of Scripals and “Vlad WOS HIER” spray painted on the nearest wall.

    Seriously, there was apparently an interesting letter from the Salisbury hospital to The Times:
    Sir, Further to your report (“Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment”, March 14),******may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning.******Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    Stephen Davies
    Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust

    If this letter is genuine then there has never been any nerve agent in Salisbury.

    According to the official story (which transpired only today, at least to me), it was administered through Skripal’s car’s ventilation system. Apparently the Skripals left the car after they started noticing the effects of the poison. Only someone who opened the car door may have been exposed to it, and I suspect that’s what might have happened to the policeman.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    Dust in the car's ventilation system is old hat now. That's what was announced that "intelligence services now believe" several days ago.

    Now what the intelligence services "now believe," is that the poison was administered by a drone operated from the Kremlin by Vlad the Poisoner, in person.

    But intelligence services seem to "now believe" six impossible things every day before breakfast. Remember the suitcase theory — that the victim, Yulia Skripal brought the stuff with her from Moscow and somehow did herself and her dad in herself. My bet is it won't be long before they "now believe" that someone slipped something into their drinks, which is the normal way poison someone.

    , @Beckow

    through Skripal’s car’s ventilation system
     
    That opens up a few questions:
    - there had to be a physical person who did it and that means that person can be found - the beauty of the luggage story was that it could be written off as a clever remote attack
    - BMW has a good security system; this would require a risky break-in with a non-zero chance of getting caught
    - the release of the substance in a car cannot be controlled - it could happen in a crowded place, there could be an accident, Skripal could loan the car, etc...

    So I am skeptical, no 'intelligence' agency is this un-intelligent. Someone is releasing more scenarios (luggage, car, drinks,...) to confuse the narrative and let it linger in the media as in 'well, it was possible...and if not that, maybe this was possible'. I don't know who that 'someone' is, but it is not Boris Johnson or Teresa May. They clearly know nothing.
    , @Kiza
    You did not address my main point - there may have been no nerve agent involved at all, then some form of poison. It is true that A&E doctors are not fully qualified to diagnose nerve agent effects, but things become really suspicious when this is followed by the British own nerve agent production lab identifing the “nerve agent” but disallowing OPCW from doing its own checks.

    If OPCW was the same as IOC, not following the procedures that the UK Government signed under would be unnecessary. The problem for the British is that they do not control OPCW as much as they control WADA and IOC. OPCW procedures are crystal clear and it is very hard to cheat.

    , @annamaria
    "...I suspect that's what might have happened to the policeman."
    You need to re-read the following line from a letter by Stephen Davies, Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust: "Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    And, just in case, one more time, for you, reiner Tor, to improve your reading comprehension: "...no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    Stephen Davies, Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust
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  32. This embarrassingly lame nerve-gas stunt serves a very specific purpose. It is propaganda for domestic justification of banned US weapons. Not chemical weapons – biological weapons.

    The US government, having finally experienced a real missile gap, a qualitative and unbridgeable one, is flouting the BWC in a panicky attempt to regain some coercive capacity.

    https://southfront.org/pentagon-bio-weapons/

    This compounds the criminal culpability of a command structure that is formally implicated in crimes against humanity and crimes against peace, but the NCS, the SIS, and its dotted-line reports have nothing to lose by breaching jus cogens some more. A Russian nuclear umbrella for rule of law has reduced US government criminals to desperation.

    Last time Russia took care of an enemy, a lot of well-meaning Germans got their nuts crushed. At this point, wringing your hands over US state crime isn’t going to get you off the hook. People better decide: Are you with CIA or against them?

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  33. RobinG says:
    @Alan Reid
    Here is one thing i noted about this meme... In the American film 'The sum of all fears' the term novochok is used..."novochok binary nerve agent" ... Now if you are going to lie, coat tailing on a BS yank movie is going to have advantages is it not? How many millions saw that movie? How many other movies are used to pre-imbed this type of predictive programming? More than a few is my guess.... The instant i heard the 'novochok' claim i immediately recalled that movie and the terror it had gathered into it's celluloid.

    “How many other movies are used to pre-imbed this type of predictive programming? “

    The virally popular TV series “24″ was commissioned by the CIA to psychologically imbed the “justifiable” use of torture.

    That show premiered on November 6, 2001. Wasn’t it conceived, written, cast and (at least the pilot probably filmed) prior to 911…? Coincidence, or more circumstantial evidence of an inside job.

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    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    “That show premiered on November 6, 2001. Wasn’t it conceived, written, cast and (at least the pilot probably filmed) prior to 911…? Coincidence, or more circumstantial evidence of an inside job.“

    Not as coincidental as you might think. Muslim terrorists were nowhere to be found in the first season of 24. Instead, the villains were from Serbia - as of the time of filming the most recent country we had attacked.

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  34. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    According to the official story (which transpired only today, at least to me), it was administered through Skripal's car's ventilation system. Apparently the Skripals left the car after they started noticing the effects of the poison. Only someone who opened the car door may have been exposed to it, and I suspect that's what might have happened to the policeman.

    Dust in the car’s ventilation system is old hat now. That’s what was announced that “intelligence services now believe” several days ago.

    Now what the intelligence services “now believe,” is that the poison was administered by a drone operated from the Kremlin by Vlad the Poisoner, in person.

    But intelligence services seem to “now believe” six impossible things every day before breakfast. Remember the suitcase theory — that the victim, Yulia Skripal brought the stuff with her from Moscow and somehow did herself and her dad in herself. My bet is it won’t be long before they “now believe” that someone slipped something into their drinks, which is the normal way poison someone.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    So, they have no evidence whatsoever other than that the poison is “of a type developed by Russia.” I thought at least they have some trail of the actual murderers. But apparently nothing.
    , @El Dato
    What happened to the BBC story of the first responder performing reanimation not getting particularly ill?

    It may have been wrong data, or she may be in hospital now.
    , @Seraphim
    Now, we know that VVP personally ordered that Russia developed nano-technology. Therefore it is highly likely that the drone was the size of a fly, or maybe a mosquito, proof that it couldn't be seen - highly likely that it disabled all CCTV cameras) and the poison was injected.
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  35. RobinG says:
    @CanSpeccy

    This is quite a climbdown from what Mr Murray has been claiming for the last few days on his own website and also from the claims of other authors that the nerve agent actually came from Porton Down.
     
    I think you are a liar. I have followed Murray's blog closely during recent days and and have never read there the statement that that you allege Murray made and then deleted as to the source of the agent responsible for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and others.

    Michael Kenny is a well known liar and troll.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Fake comments section. Trump announces he wants to kill drug dealers (not the filthy rich corporate drug dealers) just the little fish. The slaves barely show interest in a massive escalation of a war against them. Police states serve the rich.

    That’s what Russia-gate is about, distract the credulous zombies while the elites unleash hell.
    You have two flavors in two comments - Huffington Post and Brietbart. See? The slaves have choices for their propaganda. That must be what democracy means.
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  36. It is reported that the OPCW is already carrying out tests on “samples taken from Salisbury”. This will presumably take some time, but eventually (2 weeks?) there will be an announcement that it is indeed Novichok.

    The vast majority of people have already had drummed into them the fact (sic) that novichok could only be produced in Russia, so this will of course be interpreted as conclusive proof that “Putin did it”. The real push for dramatic measures (e.g., World Cup) will begin at that point.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    More likely that Nordstream 2, the gas pipeline from Russia to Northern Europe is the target.

    Senators Push to Stop Russia’s Nord Stream II Natural Gas Pipeline.

    The Senators' argument is that dependence on Russian gas undermines European security.

    Whereas to the Russians, it is obvious that the Americans wish to replace cheap Rusian piped gas with expensive liquefied American gas, which is a bi-product of fracking for oil and currently in surplus. Some frackers in Canada are even having to pay someone to take their gas.

    Surprisingly, no one has yet pointed out that Russia could deliver Novichok to the whole of Europe via Nordstream 2.
    , @Randal
    This sounds like a pretty plausible prediction.
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  37. @CanSpeccy
    Dust in the car's ventilation system is old hat now. That's what was announced that "intelligence services now believe" several days ago.

    Now what the intelligence services "now believe," is that the poison was administered by a drone operated from the Kremlin by Vlad the Poisoner, in person.

    But intelligence services seem to "now believe" six impossible things every day before breakfast. Remember the suitcase theory — that the victim, Yulia Skripal brought the stuff with her from Moscow and somehow did herself and her dad in herself. My bet is it won't be long before they "now believe" that someone slipped something into their drinks, which is the normal way poison someone.

    So, they have no evidence whatsoever other than that the poison is “of a type developed by Russia.” I thought at least they have some trail of the actual murderers. But apparently nothing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    I thought at least they have some trail of the actual murderers. But apparently nothing.
     
    That's it. The perfect murder (attempted). No evidence at all. And since Putin left no evidence the Brits obviously consider themselves free to lay the blame at his door without citing a scrap of real evidence. In fact, it's not clear if anyone was actually poisoned with a nerve agent. Maybe the Skripal's just had some contaminated oyster with they pub lunch.

    Thus, in a letter to the Times, a consultant at the local hospital wrote:


    The Times, 16 Mar 2018

    Sir, Further to your report (“Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment”, Mar 14), may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.

    Stephen Davies
    Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust

     

    And note the italicized section, which seems to say there is no evidence that anyone at all was poisoned with Novichok, although the bit about three people being poisoned makes the entire sentence slightly obscure. One might even suppose that the Times had edited the letter for greater obscurity. And if they didn't edit the letter, the should have done, to make it clearer.

    So the Skripal affair may be a false flag about nothing — nobody killed, no nerve agent actually deployed, no fingerprints, no nothing: Britain's latest contribution to the art of brainwashing sheep.

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  38. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @RobinG
    Michael Kenny is a well known liar and troll.

    Fake comments section. Trump announces he wants to kill drug dealers (not the filthy rich corporate drug dealers) just the little fish. The slaves barely show interest in a massive escalation of a war against them. Police states serve the rich.

    That’s what Russia-gate is about, distract the credulous zombies while the elites unleash hell.
    You have two flavors in two comments – Huffington Post and Brietbart. See? The slaves have choices for their propaganda. That must be what democracy means.

    Read More
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  39. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor
    According to the official story (which transpired only today, at least to me), it was administered through Skripal's car's ventilation system. Apparently the Skripals left the car after they started noticing the effects of the poison. Only someone who opened the car door may have been exposed to it, and I suspect that's what might have happened to the policeman.

    through Skripal’s car’s ventilation system

    That opens up a few questions:
    - there had to be a physical person who did it and that means that person can be found – the beauty of the luggage story was that it could be written off as a clever remote attack
    - BMW has a good security system; this would require a risky break-in with a non-zero chance of getting caught
    - the release of the substance in a car cannot be controlled – it could happen in a crowded place, there could be an accident, Skripal could loan the car, etc…

    So I am skeptical, no ‘intelligence’ agency is this un-intelligent. Someone is releasing more scenarios (luggage, car, drinks,…) to confuse the narrative and let it linger in the media as in ‘well, it was possible…and if not that, maybe this was possible’. I don’t know who that ‘someone’ is, but it is not Boris Johnson or Teresa May. They clearly know nothing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    It looks murkier and murkier.
    , @annamaria
    "Someone is releasing more scenarios to confuse the narrative ... I don’t know who that ‘someone’ is, but it is not Boris Johnson or Teresa May. They clearly know nothing."
    -- The brazen stupidity points towards Mossad. A sample: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4098082/Astonishing-undercover-video-captures-diplomat-conspiring-rival-MP-s-aide-smear-Deputy-Foreign-Secretary.html
    The video exposes the "way that the Israeli government has ‘infiltrated’ both the Conservative and Labour parties via its embassy in the UK, using secret cash and covert support. Further footage shows the Israeli diplomat, intelligence expert Shai Masot, telling senior Labour MP Joan Ryan that he has obtained ‘more than £1 million’ to pay for sympathetic Labour MPs to visit Israel. Mr Masot also mocks ‘crazy’Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and his ‘weirdo’ supporters. Footage shows pro-Israel Labour activists discussing the Jerusalem government’s secret role in backing their activities."
    -- Nothing changed. Boris Johnson kisses ziocons' ring ("I am a passionate Zionist," declares Boris Johnson). The opportunistic Theresa May' and Claire Perry' attack Corbin for being an honest man. A former salesperson of pots and ceramic tabletops, Gavin Williamson is selected as the UK Sec. of Def. to humiliate the UK and to use the fool and ignoramus for poking a bear.
    Kaganat of Nuland in former Ukraine. Zionists in charge of the UK government. Israel-occupied US Congress. In each case, the results of zionization are catastrophic for the ordinary people. Lies, deceit, indignity, corruption -- these are the ziocons' gifts to humanity. The deterioration of Oded Yinon plan for Eretz Israel makes the "chosen" literally mad.
    http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/boris-johnson-zionist/
    Claire Perry: "Please be assured that the UK Government does not support the singling out of Israel, nor the politicisation of UN institutions by the Palestinians. As such, the UK has already warned the UN Human Rights Council over its disproportionate bias against Israel." https://www.claireperry.org.uk/un-and-israel
    Claire Perry is a dishonest and opportunistic shill for Israel.
    Theresa May: "THERESA MAY, A ‘LONG-STANDING FRIEND OF ISRAEL", The parliamentary chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel issued a statement saying that “Israel can rest assured that the UK led by Theresa May will be there in its moments of need." http://www.jpost.com/International/Theresa-May-a-long-standing-friend-of-Israel-460145
    , @annamaria
    The deterioration of Oded Yinon Plan for Eretz Israel makes ziocons mad. The unbounded hatred towards Russain Federation obliterates any vestiges of the reason in the ziocons heads. Hence the apparent silliness of the "nerve gas" affair.
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  40. El Dato says:
    @Alan Reid
    Here is one thing i noted about this meme... In the American film 'The sum of all fears' the term novochok is used..."novochok binary nerve agent" ... Now if you are going to lie, coat tailing on a BS yank movie is going to have advantages is it not? How many millions saw that movie? How many other movies are used to pre-imbed this type of predictive programming? More than a few is my guess.... The instant i heard the 'novochok' claim i immediately recalled that movie and the terror it had gathered into it's celluloid.

    Reminder that “The Rock” produced a fantasy depiction of binary nerve agent transport container (“hollow glass balls”) that was used as “Saddam fact” a bit later.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rock_(film)#Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program

    Read More
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  41. El Dato says:
    @CanSpeccy
    Dust in the car's ventilation system is old hat now. That's what was announced that "intelligence services now believe" several days ago.

    Now what the intelligence services "now believe," is that the poison was administered by a drone operated from the Kremlin by Vlad the Poisoner, in person.

    But intelligence services seem to "now believe" six impossible things every day before breakfast. Remember the suitcase theory — that the victim, Yulia Skripal brought the stuff with her from Moscow and somehow did herself and her dad in herself. My bet is it won't be long before they "now believe" that someone slipped something into their drinks, which is the normal way poison someone.

    What happened to the BBC story of the first responder performing reanimation not getting particularly ill?

    It may have been wrong data, or she may be in hospital now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    What happened to the BBC story of the first responder performing reanimation not getting particularly ill?
     
    Ha! El Dato, you may just have cracked this case wide open. Don't you see?

    Here's what the BBC reported:


    Meanwhile, a doctor who was one of the first people at the scene has described how she found Ms Skripal slumped unconscious on a bench, vomiting and fitting. She had also lost control of her bodily functions.

    The woman, who asked not to be named, told the BBC she moved Ms Skripal into the recovery position and opened her airway, as others tended to her father.

    She said she treated her for almost 30 minutes, saying there was no sign of any chemical agent on Ms Skripal's face or body.

    The doctor said she had been worried she would be affected by the nerve agent, but added that she "feels fine".
     

    So that mystery woman, an alleged doctor, who asked not to be named, who was the first person to see the Skripals stricken, has disappeared. Obviously, she's the prime suspect. But the BBC and the British "intelligence services" are just too dumb to see it.
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  42. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @for-the-record
    It is reported that the OPCW is already carrying out tests on "samples taken from Salisbury". This will presumably take some time, but eventually (2 weeks?) there will be an announcement that it is indeed Novichok.

    The vast majority of people have already had drummed into them the fact (sic) that novichok could only be produced in Russia, so this will of course be interpreted as conclusive proof that "Putin did it". The real push for dramatic measures (e.g., World Cup) will begin at that point.

    More likely that Nordstream 2, the gas pipeline from Russia to Northern Europe is the target.

    Senators Push to Stop Russia’s Nord Stream II Natural Gas Pipeline.

    The Senators’ argument is that dependence on Russian gas undermines European security.

    Whereas to the Russians, it is obvious that the Americans wish to replace cheap Rusian piped gas with expensive liquefied American gas, which is a bi-product of fracking for oil and currently in surplus. Some frackers in Canada are even having to pay someone to take their gas.

    Surprisingly, no one has yet pointed out that Russia could deliver Novichok to the whole of Europe via Nordstream 2.

    Read More
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  43. Randal says:
    @for-the-record
    It is reported that the OPCW is already carrying out tests on "samples taken from Salisbury". This will presumably take some time, but eventually (2 weeks?) there will be an announcement that it is indeed Novichok.

    The vast majority of people have already had drummed into them the fact (sic) that novichok could only be produced in Russia, so this will of course be interpreted as conclusive proof that "Putin did it". The real push for dramatic measures (e.g., World Cup) will begin at that point.

    This sounds like a pretty plausible prediction.

    Read More
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  44. @Beckow

    through Skripal’s car’s ventilation system
     
    That opens up a few questions:
    - there had to be a physical person who did it and that means that person can be found - the beauty of the luggage story was that it could be written off as a clever remote attack
    - BMW has a good security system; this would require a risky break-in with a non-zero chance of getting caught
    - the release of the substance in a car cannot be controlled - it could happen in a crowded place, there could be an accident, Skripal could loan the car, etc...

    So I am skeptical, no 'intelligence' agency is this un-intelligent. Someone is releasing more scenarios (luggage, car, drinks,...) to confuse the narrative and let it linger in the media as in 'well, it was possible...and if not that, maybe this was possible'. I don't know who that 'someone' is, but it is not Boris Johnson or Teresa May. They clearly know nothing.

    It looks murkier and murkier.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    It looks murkier and murkier.

    On the contrary, it is now all very clear:

    OTTAWA (March 19) — The House of Commons has unanimously adopted a motion blaming Russia for what it calls a despicable nerve gas attack in Britain.

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.
     
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  45. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    So, they have no evidence whatsoever other than that the poison is “of a type developed by Russia.” I thought at least they have some trail of the actual murderers. But apparently nothing.

    I thought at least they have some trail of the actual murderers. But apparently nothing.

    That’s it. The perfect murder (attempted). No evidence at all. And since Putin left no evidence the Brits obviously consider themselves free to lay the blame at his door without citing a scrap of real evidence. In fact, it’s not clear if anyone was actually poisoned with a nerve agent. Maybe the Skripal’s just had some contaminated oyster with they pub lunch.

    Thus, in a letter to the Times, a consultant at the local hospital wrote:

    The Times, 16 Mar 2018

    Sir, Further to your report (“Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment”, Mar 14), may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.

    Stephen Davies
    Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust

    And note the italicized section, which seems to say there is no evidence that anyone at all was poisoned with Novichok, although the bit about three people being poisoned makes the entire sentence slightly obscure. One might even suppose that the Times had edited the letter for greater obscurity. And if they didn’t edit the letter, the should have done, to make it clearer.

    So the Skripal affair may be a false flag about nothing — nobody killed, no nerve agent actually deployed, no fingerprints, no nothing: Britain’s latest contribution to the art of brainwashing sheep.

    Read More
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  46. @reiner Tor
    It looks murkier and murkier.

    It looks murkier and murkier.

    On the contrary, it is now all very clear:

    OTTAWA (March 19) — The House of Commons has unanimously adopted a motion blaming Russia for what it calls a despicable nerve gas attack in Britain.

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.
     
    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland is showing a total disregard for the rules of logic, evidence and the respect that politicians pretend to have for the intelligence of the electorate.
    , @reiner Tor
    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice. Am I mad, or is everyone else..?
    , @AnonFromTN
    Anon from TN
    As clear as Iraq WMD. How many parliaments bought that story?
    , @annamaria
    This Canada's Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/chrystia-freelands-granddad-was-indeed-a-nazi-collaborator-so-much-for-russian-disinformation
    Christya used to tell stories about her grandpa being a victim of Soviet regime. But there are irrefutable facts about her grandpa being an active Nazi collaborator famous for enjoying the confiscated property of Nazi' victims. The grandpa was an editor of a Nazi newspaper Krakivski Visti.
    "Here is what the Los Angeles Holocaust Museum has to say about Krakivski Visti: “The editorial boards carried out a policy of soliciting Ukrainian support for the German cause ...It was typical, within these publications, to not to give any accounts of the German genocidal policy, and largely, the editions resorted to silencing the mass killing of Jews in Galicia. Ukrainian newspapers presented the Jewish Question in light of the official Nazi propaganda... In 1943 and 1944, both Lvivski Visti and Krakivski Visti hailed the German-approved formation of the 14th Waffen SS Division Halychyna, composed of Ukrainian volunteers."
    “Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland knew for more than two decades that her maternal Ukrainian grandfather was the chief editor of a Nazi newspaper.” ...
    They should have added that her grandfather was the chief beneficiary of murdered Polish Jews.
    "Chrystia Freeland’s Family Record for Nazi War Profiteering, and Murder of the Cracow Jews:" https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/01/27/chrystia-freeland-family-record-nazi-war-murder-cracow-jews.html
    Chrystia Freeland is, of course, a darling of the US ziocons and Canadian neo-Nazis.
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  47. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @El Dato
    What happened to the BBC story of the first responder performing reanimation not getting particularly ill?

    It may have been wrong data, or she may be in hospital now.

    What happened to the BBC story of the first responder performing reanimation not getting particularly ill?

    Ha! El Dato, you may just have cracked this case wide open. Don’t you see?

    Here’s what the BBC reported:

    Meanwhile, a doctor who was one of the first people at the scene has described how she found Ms Skripal slumped unconscious on a bench, vomiting and fitting. She had also lost control of her bodily functions.

    The woman, who asked not to be named, told the BBC she moved Ms Skripal into the recovery position and opened her airway, as others tended to her father.

    She said she treated her for almost 30 minutes, saying there was no sign of any chemical agent on Ms Skripal’s face or body.

    The doctor said she had been worried she would be affected by the nerve agent, but added that she “feels fine”.

    So that mystery woman, an alleged doctor, who asked not to be named, who was the first person to see the Skripals stricken, has disappeared. Obviously, she’s the prime suspect. But the BBC and the British “intelligence services” are just too dumb to see it.

    Read More
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  48. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @for-the-record
    It looks murkier and murkier.

    On the contrary, it is now all very clear:

    OTTAWA (March 19) — The House of Commons has unanimously adopted a motion blaming Russia for what it calls a despicable nerve gas attack in Britain.

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.
     

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland is showing a total disregard for the rules of logic, evidence and the respect that politicians pretend to have for the intelligence of the electorate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kolo
    Just another pathetic bought politician
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  49. @for-the-record
    It looks murkier and murkier.

    On the contrary, it is now all very clear:

    OTTAWA (March 19) — The House of Commons has unanimously adopted a motion blaming Russia for what it calls a despicable nerve gas attack in Britain.

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.
     

    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice. Am I mad, or is everyone else..?

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice.
     

    The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.
    J. Goebbels
     
    , @for-the-record
    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four.

    In the end he also saw the light. So be patient, your time will surely come.
    , @Randal

    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice. Am I mad, or is everyone else..?
     
    What's the worst thing in the world for you, rT?

    No biggie, just asking for someone else who wanted to know.
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  50. Beckow says:

    The perfect murder (attempted). No evidence at all…

    To me it actually looks very imperfect. Something definitely happened, but the reaction and political management suggest chaos. The term ‘murky’ is very appropriate.

    The way it has been set-up requires follow-ups: clarify the fate of Skripals, ‘nerve agent’ specifics, and the ‘Russia-did-it’ accusations. If it is not addressed it will be embarrassing. If there was a script, or conflicting scripts, it has gone beyond that. Both Russia and UK are in a bind, a mutually destructive embrace, one will have to let go.

    My theory is that it has more to do with Skripals and less with geo-politics. Crimes tend to happen among people who know each other. And Julia just flew in the day before. If Skripals talk, it could get interesting (so they probably will not be allowed to talk).

    In most scenarios it leaves a major boo-boo on Boris’s face, but given his face we might not notice…

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I think the Skripals won’t be able to talk at all. They are in a coma, and either they will stay there, or they will wake up with massive brain damage, unable to think much, let alone tell us what happened to them.

    If they even know. For all we know they might have just as little idea why they were almost killed as the rest of us. If it was Russia killing a traitor - then it must have come out of the blue. If it was a false flag - ditto. So even if they woke up in full possession of their mental faculties, they might know nothing more than anyone else.

    Apparently the murderer(s) struck them without any personal contacts. So they won’t even know how they were poisoned. Just suddenly felt ill, and then lost consciousness. Or something similar.
    , @Kiza
    Beckow, my complaint from the start has been the expensive car that Skripal was driving. I know that Her Majesty’s Government (HMG) gives generous pensions especially to Russian double agents (LOL) who actually brought very low value information to MI6, reflected by a relatively short prison sentence in Russia. Apparently, for 10 years of spying for the British, Skripal got paid about $100,000 (official court documents in Russia). During those years of chaos in Soviet Union, like many other enterprising Soviet Government employees on worthless salaries, he already had fingers in many “business” pies. Spying for UK was like a night job. He must have continued on such risky businesses in UK, where he needed even more money.

    In other words, the expensive BMW probably came from some risky businesses that most Soviet and Russian ex-giverment employees engage in to cover the very expensive cost of living in UK. Such risky ventures tend to increase personal risks. One of the most suspicious things about the whole Skripal affair is that neither HMG nor the UK presstitute media explore what Skripal has been doing/selling whilst “in retirement”. Furthermore, it is not easy for a Russian to get HMG permanent pension, as Litvinenko for exam0ke did not get it. Either the Russians are not aware of everything Skripal has delivered, or the Skripal’s handlers and business partners, as part of UK Deep State (Miller, Steele), have secured him such pension and additional income.

    As usual when a crime is politicised, a thick smokescreen is erected in front of the crime.

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  51. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:

    Anon from TN
    The author has a point, but… I would like to point out that at the moment we do not know not only what Skripal was poisoned with or by whom, we can’t even be sure that anyone was poisoned with anything. All we have is hot air, just like with Iraq WMD. From the same very “reliable” sources: British intelligence services and British PM. Neither ever lies, just ask Tony Blair. Not to mention that we are currently on version #5 (poisoned in the car, where apparently a British cop and more than 30 other people rode with him, if we are to believe previous statements). I can just say that only a hopeless moron can stage a provocation without inventing a coherent set of plausible lies beforehand. As we see, he did.

    Read More
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  52. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @for-the-record
    It looks murkier and murkier.

    On the contrary, it is now all very clear:

    OTTAWA (March 19) — The House of Commons has unanimously adopted a motion blaming Russia for what it calls a despicable nerve gas attack in Britain.

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.
     

    Anon from TN
    As clear as Iraq WMD. How many parliaments bought that story?

    Read More
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  53. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice. Am I mad, or is everyone else..?

    Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice.

    The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.
    J. Goebbels

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Indeed
    Philip M. Taylor, 'Munitions of the Mind, A History of Propaganda from the Ancient World to the Present Day', 1995, Manchester
    Sir Campbell Stuart K.B.E., 'Secrets of Crewe House, The Story of a Famous Campaign', 1920, London
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  54. @Beckow

    The perfect murder (attempted). No evidence at all...
     
    To me it actually looks very imperfect. Something definitely happened, but the reaction and political management suggest chaos. The term 'murky' is very appropriate.

    The way it has been set-up requires follow-ups: clarify the fate of Skripals, 'nerve agent' specifics, and the 'Russia-did-it' accusations. If it is not addressed it will be embarrassing. If there was a script, or conflicting scripts, it has gone beyond that. Both Russia and UK are in a bind, a mutually destructive embrace, one will have to let go.

    My theory is that it has more to do with Skripals and less with geo-politics. Crimes tend to happen among people who know each other. And Julia just flew in the day before. If Skripals talk, it could get interesting (so they probably will not be allowed to talk).

    In most scenarios it leaves a major boo-boo on Boris's face, but given his face we might not notice...

    I think the Skripals won’t be able to talk at all. They are in a coma, and either they will stay there, or they will wake up with massive brain damage, unable to think much, let alone tell us what happened to them.

    If they even know. For all we know they might have just as little idea why they were almost killed as the rest of us. If it was Russia killing a traitor – then it must have come out of the blue. If it was a false flag – ditto. So even if they woke up in full possession of their mental faculties, they might know nothing more than anyone else.

    Apparently the murderer(s) struck them without any personal contacts. So they won’t even know how they were poisoned. Just suddenly felt ill, and then lost consciousness. Or something similar.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    For all we know they might have just as little idea why they were almost killed as the rest of us.

    It would nonetheless be interesting to know why they (or at least he) was so upset in the restaurant immediately before, another story (along with the doctor who treated them for 30 minutes with no subsequent ill effects) that has disappeared down the memory hole.

    How the 'poisoned' spy plot unfolded: Sergei Skripal and his daughter left Zizzi after arguing over a risotto before being found collapsed on a bench

    The restaurant, in Castle Street, was busy when they arrived, but they declined the seats offered to them at the front, instead selecting ones at the back, close to the kitchen.

    They began with a starter of garlic bread to share followed by two glasses of white wine. . .

    But within minutes Mr Skripal had become angry, a witness said. ‘I think he was swearing in Russian,’ said the man, who did not want to be named.

    ‘She was just sitting there quietly, and didn’t really say anything. They were both smartly dressed, she was in a black coat.

    ‘They were speaking to each other in Russian.’

    He said Mr Skripal appeared annoyed that their main course had taken 20 minutes to arrive – and appeared in a hurry to leave.

    He was going absolutely crazy, I didn’t understand it and I couldn’t understand him.

    ‘They had not been seen for a little while by the front of house staff, but I think it was more than that. He just wanted his food and to go. He was just shouting and losing his temper. I would have asked him to leave. He just said “I want my food and my bill”.

    'The waiter took him the bill at the same time as the main course, which was unusual.

    'I don’t think they paid all of the bill. I think they were given a discount because he was so angry and agitated. He had to wait about 20 minutes for his main course.

    ‘I think it was easier for the staff just to give him money to leave as he was so angry.

    ‘They were sitting by themselves at the back of the restaurant but I think people were pleased when they left.

    'They were only there for about 45 minutes. It was a quick lunch. He just wanted to get out of there. She was silent, perhaps embarrassed.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5470455/How-poisoned-spy-plot-unfolded-Salisbury.html

     

    , @CanSpeccy

    I think the Skripals won’t be able to talk at all. They are in a coma
     
    How do you know that?

    Has there been any public report on the medical condition of the Skripals?

    I haven't been able to find one. If you know of such a report, will you please provide a link.

    In the meantime, one should keep in mind the statement of the Salisbury hospital consultant, Steohen Davies, that:


    no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury
     
    So either (1) the Skripal's were not exposed to Novichok or any other nerve agent, or (2) though exposed to a nerve agent, they were not treated at the hospital, which would be odd, though not impossible. Perhaps they were taken to the British chemical weapons lab at Porton Down, just seven miles from Salisbury, where, presumably, there are specialists in detoxification of those exposed to nerve agents.

    But unless you adhere to (1) or (2), it would seem that you have to conclude that the Skripal's were not exposed to a nerve agent. In other words, that the whole story is probably a sham, a fake terror attack, a story concocted to befuddle the plebs and justify some new imperial aggression.

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  55. Tommo says:
    @The Alarmist
    Considering the Brits dragged us into two World Wars and a bunch of lesser but nevertheless costly messes, why the f*** do we listen to, much less believe, anything they say that points even in the general direction of conflict with Russia?

    Does anyone in American leadership even fathom that the UK have a big chip on their shoulder for us knocking them off the top of the list of great empires and adding insult to injury by essentially forcing them to dismantle their empire, and then pushing them into a vassal state of the EU so we could better manage them as but one of many vassals?

    I thought the Japs dragged you into ww2. And a bunch of lesser messes? Are you serious?

    https://popularresistance.org/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-in-37-nations-since-wwii/

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    The Japs were just a necessary excuse to formalise what had been going on for some time. And remember that a lot of what the Japs took or threatened in the Pacific was part of the British Empire.
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  56. @reiner Tor
    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice. Am I mad, or is everyone else..?

    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four.

    In the end he also saw the light. So be patient, your time will surely come.

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  57. Kiza says:
    @CanSpeccy

    This is quite a climbdown from what Mr Murray has been claiming for the last few days on his own website and also from the claims of other authors that the nerve agent actually came from Porton Down.
     
    I think you are a liar. I have followed Murray's blog closely during recent days and and have never read there the statement that that you allege Murray made and then deleted as to the source of the agent responsible for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and others.

    I followed Mr Murray’s blog and comments by the hour and I vouch that this troll is lying. And, BTW, by his warped logic there should be no whistleblowers at all – they would all be too scared of jail. All scumbags self-project.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    I followed Mr Murray’s blog and comments by the hour and I vouch that this troll is lying.
     
    Thanks for the confirmation. I hesitated to be absolutely definite because of the possible fallibility of memory. But I should have been more confident in the logical coherence of Craig Murray's analysis. Politically, I am generally in disagreement with Murray, but I am in awed by his analytical skills, his breadth of knowledge of diplomatic affairs, and his deft handling of tricky BBC interviewers (about 5 minutes into this vid.).
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  58. @reiner Tor
    I think the Skripals won’t be able to talk at all. They are in a coma, and either they will stay there, or they will wake up with massive brain damage, unable to think much, let alone tell us what happened to them.

    If they even know. For all we know they might have just as little idea why they were almost killed as the rest of us. If it was Russia killing a traitor - then it must have come out of the blue. If it was a false flag - ditto. So even if they woke up in full possession of their mental faculties, they might know nothing more than anyone else.

    Apparently the murderer(s) struck them without any personal contacts. So they won’t even know how they were poisoned. Just suddenly felt ill, and then lost consciousness. Or something similar.

    For all we know they might have just as little idea why they were almost killed as the rest of us.

    It would nonetheless be interesting to know why they (or at least he) was so upset in the restaurant immediately before, another story (along with the doctor who treated them for 30 minutes with no subsequent ill effects) that has disappeared down the memory hole.

    How the ‘poisoned’ spy plot unfolded: Sergei Skripal and his daughter left Zizzi after arguing over a risotto before being found collapsed on a bench

    The restaurant, in Castle Street, was busy when they arrived, but they declined the seats offered to them at the front, instead selecting ones at the back, close to the kitchen.

    They began with a starter of garlic bread to share followed by two glasses of white wine. . .

    But within minutes Mr Skripal had become angry, a witness said. ‘I think he was swearing in Russian,’ said the man, who did not want to be named.

    ‘She was just sitting there quietly, and didn’t really say anything. They were both smartly dressed, she was in a black coat.

    ‘They were speaking to each other in Russian.’

    He said Mr Skripal appeared annoyed that their main course had taken 20 minutes to arrive – and appeared in a hurry to leave.

    He was going absolutely crazy, I didn’t understand it and I couldn’t understand him.

    ‘They had not been seen for a little while by the front of house staff, but I think it was more than that. He just wanted his food and to go. He was just shouting and losing his temper. I would have asked him to leave. He just said “I want my food and my bill”.

    ‘The waiter took him the bill at the same time as the main course, which was unusual.

    ‘I don’t think they paid all of the bill. I think they were given a discount because he was so angry and agitated. He had to wait about 20 minutes for his main course.

    ‘I think it was easier for the staff just to give him money to leave as he was so angry.

    ‘They were sitting by themselves at the back of the restaurant but I think people were pleased when they left.

    ‘They were only there for about 45 minutes. It was a quick lunch. He just wanted to get out of there. She was silent, perhaps embarrassed.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5470455/How-poisoned-spy-plot-unfolded-Salisbury.html

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    This story reads like crap. Since when is 45min. a quick lunch, when you haven't even gotten your entee?
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  59. Kiza says:
    @Beckow

    The perfect murder (attempted). No evidence at all...
     
    To me it actually looks very imperfect. Something definitely happened, but the reaction and political management suggest chaos. The term 'murky' is very appropriate.

    The way it has been set-up requires follow-ups: clarify the fate of Skripals, 'nerve agent' specifics, and the 'Russia-did-it' accusations. If it is not addressed it will be embarrassing. If there was a script, or conflicting scripts, it has gone beyond that. Both Russia and UK are in a bind, a mutually destructive embrace, one will have to let go.

    My theory is that it has more to do with Skripals and less with geo-politics. Crimes tend to happen among people who know each other. And Julia just flew in the day before. If Skripals talk, it could get interesting (so they probably will not be allowed to talk).

    In most scenarios it leaves a major boo-boo on Boris's face, but given his face we might not notice...

    Beckow, my complaint from the start has been the expensive car that Skripal was driving. I know that Her Majesty’s Government (HMG) gives generous pensions especially to Russian double agents (LOL) who actually brought very low value information to MI6, reflected by a relatively short prison sentence in Russia. Apparently, for 10 years of spying for the British, Skripal got paid about $100,000 (official court documents in Russia). During those years of chaos in Soviet Union, like many other enterprising Soviet Government employees on worthless salaries, he already had fingers in many “business” pies. Spying for UK was like a night job. He must have continued on such risky businesses in UK, where he needed even more money.

    In other words, the expensive BMW probably came from some risky businesses that most Soviet and Russian ex-giverment employees engage in to cover the very expensive cost of living in UK. Such risky ventures tend to increase personal risks. One of the most suspicious things about the whole Skripal affair is that neither HMG nor the UK presstitute media explore what Skripal has been doing/selling whilst “in retirement”. Furthermore, it is not easy for a Russian to get HMG permanent pension, as Litvinenko for exam0ke did not get it. Either the Russians are not aware of everything Skripal has delivered, or the Skripal’s handlers and business partners, as part of UK Deep State (Miller, Steele), have secured him such pension and additional income.

    As usual when a crime is politicised, a thick smokescreen is erected in front of the crime.

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  60. Kiza says:
    @reiner Tor
    According to the official story (which transpired only today, at least to me), it was administered through Skripal's car's ventilation system. Apparently the Skripals left the car after they started noticing the effects of the poison. Only someone who opened the car door may have been exposed to it, and I suspect that's what might have happened to the policeman.

    You did not address my main point – there may have been no nerve agent involved at all, then some form of poison. It is true that A&E doctors are not fully qualified to diagnose nerve agent effects, but things become really suspicious when this is followed by the British own nerve agent production lab identifing the “nerve agent” but disallowing OPCW from doing its own checks.

    If OPCW was the same as IOC, not following the procedures that the UK Government signed under would be unnecessary. The problem for the British is that they do not control OPCW as much as they control WADA and IOC. OPCW procedures are crystal clear and it is very hard to cheat.

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  61. Seraphim says:
    @CanSpeccy
    Dust in the car's ventilation system is old hat now. That's what was announced that "intelligence services now believe" several days ago.

    Now what the intelligence services "now believe," is that the poison was administered by a drone operated from the Kremlin by Vlad the Poisoner, in person.

    But intelligence services seem to "now believe" six impossible things every day before breakfast. Remember the suitcase theory — that the victim, Yulia Skripal brought the stuff with her from Moscow and somehow did herself and her dad in herself. My bet is it won't be long before they "now believe" that someone slipped something into their drinks, which is the normal way poison someone.

    Now, we know that VVP personally ordered that Russia developed nano-technology. Therefore it is highly likely that the drone was the size of a fly, or maybe a mosquito, proof that it couldn’t be seen – highly likely that it disabled all CCTV cameras) and the poison was injected.

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  62. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    I think the Skripals won’t be able to talk at all. They are in a coma, and either they will stay there, or they will wake up with massive brain damage, unable to think much, let alone tell us what happened to them.

    If they even know. For all we know they might have just as little idea why they were almost killed as the rest of us. If it was Russia killing a traitor - then it must have come out of the blue. If it was a false flag - ditto. So even if they woke up in full possession of their mental faculties, they might know nothing more than anyone else.

    Apparently the murderer(s) struck them without any personal contacts. So they won’t even know how they were poisoned. Just suddenly felt ill, and then lost consciousness. Or something similar.

    I think the Skripals won’t be able to talk at all. They are in a coma

    How do you know that?

    Has there been any public report on the medical condition of the Skripals?

    I haven’t been able to find one. If you know of such a report, will you please provide a link.

    In the meantime, one should keep in mind the statement of the Salisbury hospital consultant, Steohen Davies, that:

    no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury

    So either (1) the Skripal’s were not exposed to Novichok or any other nerve agent, or (2) though exposed to a nerve agent, they were not treated at the hospital, which would be odd, though not impossible. Perhaps they were taken to the British chemical weapons lab at Porton Down, just seven miles from Salisbury, where, presumably, there are specialists in detoxification of those exposed to nerve agents.

    But unless you adhere to (1) or (2), it would seem that you have to conclude that the Skripal’s were not exposed to a nerve agent. In other words, that the whole story is probably a sham, a fake terror attack, a story concocted to befuddle the plebs and justify some new imperial aggression.

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  63. Beckow says:

    Skripal was so upset in the restaurant…

    Sugar imbalance? Skripal was a 66-year guy waiting for his risotto, with an unmarried ageing daughter gaining weight, she probably grabbed the bigger piece of garlic bread. So he blew up.

    But the key is that he stiffed the Italian waiter. ‘Not very smart’, as Trump says. There is your motif right there. I am surprised they made it out of the restaurant.

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  64. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Kiza
    I followed Mr Murray’s blog and comments by the hour and I vouch that this troll is lying. And, BTW, by his warped logic there should be no whistleblowers at all - they would all be too scared of jail. All scumbags self-project.

    I followed Mr Murray’s blog and comments by the hour and I vouch that this troll is lying.

    Thanks for the confirmation. I hesitated to be absolutely definite because of the possible fallibility of memory. But I should have been more confident in the logical coherence of Craig Murray’s analysis. Politically, I am generally in disagreement with Murray, but I am in awed by his analytical skills, his breadth of knowledge of diplomatic affairs, and his deft handling of tricky BBC interviewers (about 5 minutes into this vid.).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    Thanks for the link. Don’t you get suck of thieve media presstitutes defending their septic tanks propaganda houses whilst putting words into the mouths of their guests. The septic tank lizard who interviews Craig Murray confronts the interviewee with questions such as: Why do you think Russia did not do it? which is a lie on its own. Mr Murray never claimed that it was not Russia, he only claimed that there is no proof that it was Russia.

    One important thing is that a dumb member of the public, when listening to both sides, one which interprets lack of facts as certainty that it was Russia and the other side which says that we do not have facts and it may have as well been Russia (among many other), then such dumb member of the public would be inclined to say - well then it was Russia. We the public are not lawyers to make the fine distinction, one side is saying that it is Russia, the other side is saying it could have been Russia, the probably it is Russia.

    This is how the nasty Western regimes operate.

    Ultimately, it comes down to two things:
    1) will there be a war, and
    2) will the liars (those certain that it was Russia when there are no facts) ever be punished for lying, even if/when they start hiding behind faulty intelligence and “scientists” of Porton Down?
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  65. likbez says:

    My impression is that the nerve agent was introduced to the scene after Skripals were hospitalized as a doctor attended the daughter for 30 min before the ambulance came. She did not develop any symptoms. So at this moment they lost conscience at the bench there was no nerve gas on the scene. It might well be something else.

    IMHO this looks like an opening salvo in multi-step combination. Clumsy first step. It might well be designed to confiscate a part of Russian money in London banks and thus create the motive for Russian oligarchs to remove Putin. Kind of color revolution launched by disgruntled oligarchs.

    That’s probably why the UK government does not really care, if that is told to people true or not. Officials produce crazy statements and generally behave quite carelessly, as if they completely despise public and truth dos not matter for them one bit. The support of the USA is all that matter. Look for example at the most recent statement of Boris Johnson. But they needed the pretext for further actions, be it another witch hunt or something more serious and they succeeded.

    Their actions look completely logical if the resulting hysteria is needed just for a few weeks to start the next round of sanctions against Russia. It might well be that the real goal is confiscation of “ill gotten” money of Russian oligarchs both to push them to act against Putin and to compensate for Brexit losses

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  66. Randal says:
    @reiner Tor
    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice. Am I mad, or is everyone else..?

    I often feel like Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice. Am I mad, or is everyone else..?

    What’s the worst thing in the world for you, rT?

    No biggie, just asking for someone else who wanted to know.

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  67. @Randal
    The UK government's case, such as it was, when it issued its disgraceful "ultimatum" to Russia was basically fourfold, as set out in this BBC piece:

    Poisoned ex-spy: Why does UK think it was Russia?

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    2 There is a motive for Russia to have carried out the attack - killing a traitor.

    3 There is supposedly a "track record" of Russia committing such crimes.

    4 There's no other hypothesis.

    These points are all bunk, as set out below, and the information obtained by Murray has helped hugely in establishing that fact. But none of the refutations is remotely complicated or hard to spot, and any honest journalist should have been confronting the government with them from day one.

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    As Murray has highlighted, the most the British government can say is that the substance they allege was used was "of a type developed by Russia", and in fact it could have been produced in any other country over the past ten years and was in fact produced in Iran in 2016 under OPCW supervision. So the fact that it was originally developed in Russia decades ago is evidence of nothing.

    2 There is a motive for Russia to have carried out the attack - killing a traitor.

    In fact Skipal was a spy who was unmasked by the Russians, tried, convicted and imprisoned. His offence was clearly not considered particularly serious, as treasons go, because he was only given 13 years in prison, and he was clearly considered no longer a threat because he was subsequently exchanged for some Russian spies.

    3 There is supposedly a "track record" of Russia committing such crimes.

    There is no track record of the Russians killing exchanged former spies. Indeed British intelligence effectively admitted that because they were quite happy for Skripal to live openly under his own name, with his address in the public domain and no protection given to him, unlike for instance organised crime witnesses who do actually face enemies with a track record of killing them.

    4 There's no other hypothesis.

    Of course there are plenty of other hypotheses with at least as much plausibility as the dubious case against Russia. Any of the governments seeking to promote and foment confrontation of Russia, over Ukraine or Syria, or just for internal political benefits, had a motive for committing this crime, and doing it in the method (a "wmd" attack on British soil) guaranteed to create the maximum hysteria and propaganda value. That brings the US, Israel, the Ukraine and the UK into the frame, all of whom would certainly have had the capability to manufacture the substance. Then there are issues around the shadowy criminal and political elements with whom Skripal was potentially involved, from Russian mafia to the US security state figures currently mixed up with British intelligence in the ongoing anti-Russian/anti-Trump nonsense.

    In reality there is no shortage of alternative hypotheses. It's just that the BBC like the rest of the mainstream media failed to mention any of them. As usual, acting as stenographers for the powerful, rather than agents of truth.

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    As Murray has highlighted, the most the British government can say is that the substance they allege was used was “of a type developed by Russia”, and in fact it could have been produced in any other country over the past ten years and was in fact produced in Iran in 2016 under OPCW supervision. So the fact that it was originally developed in Russia decades ago is evidence of nothing.

    I agree with you very strongly apart from the above. Novichok was developed in the late 1970s and 80s in the Soviet Union. In particular, it is highly likely it was developed in the Nukus Institute, Uzbekhistan. After a period of chaos in the early 1990s – when an indeterminately large amount of the material may have been sold or dispersed – the Institute was taken over by the US Government, who were still involved in 1999, according to Dr Richard North.
    This presupposes that Novichok exists at all. It may be a KGB propaganda operation whose aim was to convince the West that the Soviet Union had developed a new wonder weapon.

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    • Replies: @Randal
    Yes, I should have written Soviet Union (although it was geographically in Russia, and the received opinion seems to be that the program continued in the early post-Soviet years).

    Here's an interesting further piece of info about Novichok just coming out, that puts the final nail in the coffin of the UK government's allegation that it must have come from Russia. Craig Murray, interviewed by George Galloway for his radio talk show, said:

    "In fact I was just getting information today that the professor of organo-chemistry at Cornell University has today published that "given the information available on the formulae, any of his third year students could do it in his university"."

    That's pretty much what I suspected, but I wasn't willing to suggest it beforehand because I'm not a chemist.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/dun-type-developpe-par-des-menteurs
    Just after 4:00 on the linked radio interview.

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  68. RobinG says:
    @for-the-record
    For all we know they might have just as little idea why they were almost killed as the rest of us.

    It would nonetheless be interesting to know why they (or at least he) was so upset in the restaurant immediately before, another story (along with the doctor who treated them for 30 minutes with no subsequent ill effects) that has disappeared down the memory hole.

    How the 'poisoned' spy plot unfolded: Sergei Skripal and his daughter left Zizzi after arguing over a risotto before being found collapsed on a bench

    The restaurant, in Castle Street, was busy when they arrived, but they declined the seats offered to them at the front, instead selecting ones at the back, close to the kitchen.

    They began with a starter of garlic bread to share followed by two glasses of white wine. . .

    But within minutes Mr Skripal had become angry, a witness said. ‘I think he was swearing in Russian,’ said the man, who did not want to be named.

    ‘She was just sitting there quietly, and didn’t really say anything. They were both smartly dressed, she was in a black coat.

    ‘They were speaking to each other in Russian.’

    He said Mr Skripal appeared annoyed that their main course had taken 20 minutes to arrive – and appeared in a hurry to leave.

    He was going absolutely crazy, I didn’t understand it and I couldn’t understand him.

    ‘They had not been seen for a little while by the front of house staff, but I think it was more than that. He just wanted his food and to go. He was just shouting and losing his temper. I would have asked him to leave. He just said “I want my food and my bill”.

    'The waiter took him the bill at the same time as the main course, which was unusual.

    'I don’t think they paid all of the bill. I think they were given a discount because he was so angry and agitated. He had to wait about 20 minutes for his main course.

    ‘I think it was easier for the staff just to give him money to leave as he was so angry.

    ‘They were sitting by themselves at the back of the restaurant but I think people were pleased when they left.

    'They were only there for about 45 minutes. It was a quick lunch. He just wanted to get out of there. She was silent, perhaps embarrassed.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5470455/How-poisoned-spy-plot-unfolded-Salisbury.html

     

    This story reads like crap. Since when is 45min. a quick lunch, when you haven’t even gotten your entee?

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  69. Randal says:
    @Verymuchalive

    1 The substance they claim was used is of Russian origin.

    As Murray has highlighted, the most the British government can say is that the substance they allege was used was “of a type developed by Russia”, and in fact it could have been produced in any other country over the past ten years and was in fact produced in Iran in 2016 under OPCW supervision. So the fact that it was originally developed in Russia decades ago is evidence of nothing.

     

    I agree with you very strongly apart from the above. Novichok was developed in the late 1970s and 80s in the Soviet Union. In particular, it is highly likely it was developed in the Nukus Institute, Uzbekhistan. After a period of chaos in the early 1990s - when an indeterminately large amount of the material may have been sold or dispersed - the Institute was taken over by the US Government, who were still involved in 1999, according to Dr Richard North.
    This presupposes that Novichok exists at all. It may be a KGB propaganda operation whose aim was to convince the West that the Soviet Union had developed a new wonder weapon.

    Yes, I should have written Soviet Union (although it was geographically in Russia, and the received opinion seems to be that the program continued in the early post-Soviet years).

    Here’s an interesting further piece of info about Novichok just coming out, that puts the final nail in the coffin of the UK government’s allegation that it must have come from Russia. Craig Murray, interviewed by George Galloway for his radio talk show, said:

    “In fact I was just getting information today that the professor of organo-chemistry at Cornell University has today published that “given the information available on the formulae, any of his third year students could do it in his university”.”

    That’s pretty much what I suspected, but I wasn’t willing to suggest it beforehand because I’m not a chemist.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/dun-type-developpe-par-des-menteurs

    Just after 4:00 on the linked radio interview.

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    • Replies: @Randal

    although it was geographically in Russia
     
    * I should have noted here I suppose that this was the case assuming the original dissident's story is correct and it was developed in Russia and only tested in Uzbekistan.
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  70. Randal says:
    @Randal
    Yes, I should have written Soviet Union (although it was geographically in Russia, and the received opinion seems to be that the program continued in the early post-Soviet years).

    Here's an interesting further piece of info about Novichok just coming out, that puts the final nail in the coffin of the UK government's allegation that it must have come from Russia. Craig Murray, interviewed by George Galloway for his radio talk show, said:

    "In fact I was just getting information today that the professor of organo-chemistry at Cornell University has today published that "given the information available on the formulae, any of his third year students could do it in his university"."

    That's pretty much what I suspected, but I wasn't willing to suggest it beforehand because I'm not a chemist.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/dun-type-developpe-par-des-menteurs
    Just after 4:00 on the linked radio interview.

    although it was geographically in Russia

    * I should have noted here I suppose that this was the case assuming the original dissident’s story is correct and it was developed in Russia and only tested in Uzbekistan.

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    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    I take your point that Novichok, if it exists, was probably developed in Russia, then tested and manufactured at the Nukus Institute in Uzbekhistan. Of course, the MSM have totally failed to say anything about the agent being dispersed or sold in the early 1990s or the Institute being under US Govt control for most of that decade.

    “In fact I was just getting information today that the professor of organo-chemistry at Cornell University has today published that “given the information available on the formulae, any of his third year students could do it in his university”.”

     
    This makes it less likely that Novichok is a 4th Generation Nerve Agent and more likely it was a KGB propaganda op.
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  71. @RobinG

    "How many other movies are used to pre-imbed this type of predictive programming? "
     
    The virally popular TV series "24" was commissioned by the CIA to psychologically imbed the "justifiable" use of torture.

    That show premiered on November 6, 2001. Wasn't it conceived, written, cast and (at least the pilot probably filmed) prior to 911...? Coincidence, or more circumstantial evidence of an inside job.

    “That show premiered on November 6, 2001. Wasn’t it conceived, written, cast and (at least the pilot probably filmed) prior to 911…? Coincidence, or more circumstantial evidence of an inside job.“

    Not as coincidental as you might think. Muslim terrorists were nowhere to be found in the first season of 24. Instead, the villains were from Serbia – as of the time of filming the most recent country we had attacked.

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  72. Kiza says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I followed Mr Murray’s blog and comments by the hour and I vouch that this troll is lying.
     
    Thanks for the confirmation. I hesitated to be absolutely definite because of the possible fallibility of memory. But I should have been more confident in the logical coherence of Craig Murray's analysis. Politically, I am generally in disagreement with Murray, but I am in awed by his analytical skills, his breadth of knowledge of diplomatic affairs, and his deft handling of tricky BBC interviewers (about 5 minutes into this vid.).

    Thanks for the link. Don’t you get suck of thieve media presstitutes defending their septic tanks propaganda houses whilst putting words into the mouths of their guests. The septic tank lizard who interviews Craig Murray confronts the interviewee with questions such as: Why do you think Russia did not do it? which is a lie on its own. Mr Murray never claimed that it was not Russia, he only claimed that there is no proof that it was Russia.

    One important thing is that a dumb member of the public, when listening to both sides, one which interprets lack of facts as certainty that it was Russia and the other side which says that we do not have facts and it may have as well been Russia (among many other), then such dumb member of the public would be inclined to say – well then it was Russia. We the public are not lawyers to make the fine distinction, one side is saying that it is Russia, the other side is saying it could have been Russia, the probably it is Russia.

    This is how the nasty Western regimes operate.

    Ultimately, it comes down to two things:
    1) will there be a war, and
    2) will the liars (those certain that it was Russia when there are no facts) ever be punished for lying, even if/when they start hiding behind faulty intelligence and “scientists” of Porton Down?

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  73. Kiza says:

    How many Porton Down scientists will need to be suicided a few weeks before their daughters’ or sons’ weddings to prevent the truth from coming out? David Kelley did that for the non-existent Iraqi WMD.

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  74. Silva says:

    Happy to see Murray here – his book Catholic Orangemen of Togo is excellent.

    Read More
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  75. annamaria says:
    @Seraphim
    The scam must be so obvious and damaging that even a 'believer' in the other obvious scams (Litvinenko) and the 'illegal' occupation of Crimea and 'parts of Georgia' must disassociate from it. I think that he might know more than simple conjectures about the role of the third party he alludes cautiously to, the party which has not only the motives to do it, but also the means and opportunities to operate freely under the radar which never sees it.

    The believers — and particularly the opportunistic scum-in-charge (Theresa May and Boris Johnson) — will never disassociate from the stupid story because it was hatched by “deciders” and their incompetent advisors.
    Here is a “letter published in the Times on the 16th March, from Dr. Stephen Davies (Consultant in Emergency Medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust):” https://robinwestenra.blogspot.com/2018/03/developments-in-scripal-caseno-patients.html
    “Sir, further to your report (Poison Exposure Leaves Nearly 40 needing Treatment), may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    – Should Boris, Theresa, Diaper-Boy Williamson, Clair Perry and other “experts” be immediately tarred and feathered for their criminal lies and insults inflicted on Russain Federation, a nuclear power?

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  76. Kiza says:

    The EU today requested from Mr Putin to prove that he stopped beating his wife (although he is divorced).

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Anon from TN
    The best I’ve seen is that Putin personally killed Kennedy, burned Giordano Bruno, crucified Christ, poisoned Socrates, and killed all dinosaurs.
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  77. annamaria says:
    @DESERT FOX
    The Zionist drive for a Zionist controlled one world government is in overdrive and to see just how far down the road the U.S. is to a one world dictatorship, just read the 10 planks of the communist manifesto, we are almost there.

    The Zionist war plans always start with demonizing the target nation and this is accomplished via the Zionist dominated MSM and the Zionist controlled U.S. gov and with lies being the currency of the transaction , soon black is white, up is down, and wrong is right in the Zionist playbook and in this case Russia is the target.

    The lies being told about Russia by the Zionists knows no bounds and in fact is beyond the pale as lie after lie is spewed out on the Zionist controlled MSM. The Zionist dual citizen neocon warmongers have a goal of war with Russia and it looks like the goal is within reach with all the signs that it will truly be Armageddon.

    The proof that zionists control the U.S. gov is the fact that Israel and the deep state did 911 and got away with it, that is control in spades.

    The ziocons in their hubris are not able to factor in the Russians’ memory for Jewish Bolsheviks’ stupendous (a)moral flexibility. Ziocons (the Lobby and Friends of Israel) still have an illusion that Russians do not understand their modus operandi. Fools. The fables of “eternal victimhood,” “choseness,” and “superior morality” work fine for Texan fundamentalists and congressional whores but not for Russians, who expect the worst form the tribe and are not surprised by Ziocons’ acts of monumental stupidy, including the stupidity of Skripal affair. Theresa and Boris are just doormats for the “eternal victims.”

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    • Replies: @Kolo
    So true
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  78. annamaria says:
    @reiner Tor
    According to the official story (which transpired only today, at least to me), it was administered through Skripal's car's ventilation system. Apparently the Skripals left the car after they started noticing the effects of the poison. Only someone who opened the car door may have been exposed to it, and I suspect that's what might have happened to the policeman.

    “…I suspect that’s what might have happened to the policeman.”
    You need to re-read the following line from a letter by Stephen Davies, Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust: “Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    And, just in case, one more time, for you, reiner Tor, to improve your reading comprehension: “…no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    Stephen Davies, Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    The Stephen Davies letter doesn't tell us as much as you suggest. A policeman isn't normally considered a "member of the public," and by the same token, Davies may be distinguishing between Skripal and his daughter and general passers by.

    Right in this thread, there are confusing or conflicting statements. Was there really a restaurant incident? Was it relevant? Did Skripal leave the restaurant by his car? Somebody claims there were other people in "the car." A lot of people. Like it was a bus or something. But it was a BMW?

    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real? Someone claiming to be in the emergency room with Seth Rich wrote a lot of garbage, signifying nothing.
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  79. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @Kiza
    The EU today requested from Mr Putin to prove that he stopped beating his wife (although he is divorced).

    Anon from TN
    The best I’ve seen is that Putin personally killed Kennedy, burned Giordano Bruno, crucified Christ, poisoned Socrates, and killed all dinosaurs.

    Read More
    • LOL: geokat62
    • Replies: @Kiza
    Nah you jumped to conclusion. All those horrible things have been done by the men of the type developed by Russia.
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  80. Kiza says:
    @AnonFromTN
    Anon from TN
    The best I’ve seen is that Putin personally killed Kennedy, burned Giordano Bruno, crucified Christ, poisoned Socrates, and killed all dinosaurs.

    Nah you jumped to conclusion. All those horrible things have been done by the men of the type developed by Russia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Anon from TN
    Yea, you are right: men of the type developed by Russia are the culprits. We all know that highly suspicious type that unambiguously points to Russia: two legs, two hands, one head, two eyes. Gotcha!
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  81. annamaria says:
    @Beckow

    through Skripal’s car’s ventilation system
     
    That opens up a few questions:
    - there had to be a physical person who did it and that means that person can be found - the beauty of the luggage story was that it could be written off as a clever remote attack
    - BMW has a good security system; this would require a risky break-in with a non-zero chance of getting caught
    - the release of the substance in a car cannot be controlled - it could happen in a crowded place, there could be an accident, Skripal could loan the car, etc...

    So I am skeptical, no 'intelligence' agency is this un-intelligent. Someone is releasing more scenarios (luggage, car, drinks,...) to confuse the narrative and let it linger in the media as in 'well, it was possible...and if not that, maybe this was possible'. I don't know who that 'someone' is, but it is not Boris Johnson or Teresa May. They clearly know nothing.

    “Someone is releasing more scenarios to confuse the narrative … I don’t know who that ‘someone’ is, but it is not Boris Johnson or Teresa May. They clearly know nothing.”
    – The brazen stupidity points towards Mossad. A sample: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4098082/Astonishing-undercover-video-captures-diplomat-conspiring-rival-MP-s-aide-smear-Deputy-Foreign-Secretary.html
    The video exposes the “way that the Israeli government has ‘infiltrated’ both the Conservative and Labour parties via its embassy in the UK, using secret cash and covert support. Further footage shows the Israeli diplomat, intelligence expert Shai Masot, telling senior Labour MP Joan Ryan that he has obtained ‘more than £1 million’ to pay for sympathetic Labour MPs to visit Israel. Mr Masot also mocks ‘crazy’Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and his ‘weirdo’ supporters. Footage shows pro-Israel Labour activists discussing the Jerusalem government’s secret role in backing their activities.”
    – Nothing changed. Boris Johnson kisses ziocons’ ring (“I am a passionate Zionist,” declares Boris Johnson). The opportunistic Theresa May’ and Claire Perry’ attack Corbin for being an honest man. A former salesperson of pots and ceramic tabletops, Gavin Williamson is selected as the UK Sec. of Def. to humiliate the UK and to use the fool and ignoramus for poking a bear.
    Kaganat of Nuland in former Ukraine. Zionists in charge of the UK government. Israel-occupied US Congress. In each case, the results of zionization are catastrophic for the ordinary people. Lies, deceit, indignity, corruption — these are the ziocons’ gifts to humanity. The deterioration of Oded Yinon plan for Eretz Israel makes the “chosen” literally mad.

    http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/boris-johnson-zionist/

    Claire Perry: “Please be assured that the UK Government does not support the singling out of Israel, nor the politicisation of UN institutions by the Palestinians. As such, the UK has already warned the UN Human Rights Council over its disproportionate bias against Israel.” https://www.claireperry.org.uk/un-and-israel
    Claire Perry is a dishonest and opportunistic shill for Israel.
    Theresa May: “THERESA MAY, A ‘LONG-STANDING FRIEND OF ISRAEL”, The parliamentary chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel issued a statement saying that “Israel can rest assured that the UK led by Theresa May will be there in its moments of need.” http://www.jpost.com/International/Theresa-May-a-long-standing-friend-of-Israel-460145

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    I have reached the same conclusions. Only a third party could have done it. A party who had the motive (souring British-Russian relations by planting false evidence that the Russians did it and linking them to the 'imminent chemical attacks in Syria'), means (who had the poison and could introduce it unobserved in Britain), opportunity (agents who can entry and exit Britain without being surveiled, a network of logistical support above suspicion and assured of impunity if caught). Only one secret service satisfy these conditions.
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  82. annamaria says:
    @Beckow

    through Skripal’s car’s ventilation system
     
    That opens up a few questions:
    - there had to be a physical person who did it and that means that person can be found - the beauty of the luggage story was that it could be written off as a clever remote attack
    - BMW has a good security system; this would require a risky break-in with a non-zero chance of getting caught
    - the release of the substance in a car cannot be controlled - it could happen in a crowded place, there could be an accident, Skripal could loan the car, etc...

    So I am skeptical, no 'intelligence' agency is this un-intelligent. Someone is releasing more scenarios (luggage, car, drinks,...) to confuse the narrative and let it linger in the media as in 'well, it was possible...and if not that, maybe this was possible'. I don't know who that 'someone' is, but it is not Boris Johnson or Teresa May. They clearly know nothing.

    The deterioration of Oded Yinon Plan for Eretz Israel makes ziocons mad. The unbounded hatred towards Russain Federation obliterates any vestiges of the reason in the ziocons heads. Hence the apparent silliness of the “nerve gas” affair.

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  83. annamaria says:
    @for-the-record
    It looks murkier and murkier.

    On the contrary, it is now all very clear:

    OTTAWA (March 19) — The House of Commons has unanimously adopted a motion blaming Russia for what it calls a despicable nerve gas attack in Britain.

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.
     

    This Canada’s Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/chrystia-freelands-granddad-was-indeed-a-nazi-collaborator-so-much-for-russian-disinformation
    Christya used to tell stories about her grandpa being a victim of Soviet regime. But there are irrefutable facts about her grandpa being an active Nazi collaborator famous for enjoying the confiscated property of Nazi’ victims. The grandpa was an editor of a Nazi newspaper Krakivski Visti.
    “Here is what the Los Angeles Holocaust Museum has to say about Krakivski Visti: “The editorial boards carried out a policy of soliciting Ukrainian support for the German cause …It was typical, within these publications, to not to give any accounts of the German genocidal policy, and largely, the editions resorted to silencing the mass killing of Jews in Galicia. Ukrainian newspapers presented the Jewish Question in light of the official Nazi propaganda… In 1943 and 1944, both Lvivski Visti and Krakivski Visti hailed the German-approved formation of the 14th Waffen SS Division Halychyna, composed of Ukrainian volunteers.”
    “Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland knew for more than two decades that her maternal Ukrainian grandfather was the chief editor of a Nazi newspaper.” …
    They should have added that her grandfather was the chief beneficiary of murdered Polish Jews.
    “Chrystia Freeland’s Family Record for Nazi War Profiteering, and Murder of the Cracow Jews:” https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/01/27/chrystia-freeland-family-record-nazi-war-murder-cracow-jews.html
    Chrystia Freeland is, of course, a darling of the US ziocons and Canadian neo-Nazis.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Anon from TN
    I did not know this about that particular personage, but the pattern is pretty usual. Donald Tusk’s grandfather served parteigenosse Hitler as a volunteer. Latvia and Estonia annually hold parades of Waffen SS veterans and their admirers. “Hero of Ukraine” Shukhevich was Waffen SS Hauptmann. Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol Hitler.
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  84. RobinG says:
    @annamaria
    "...I suspect that's what might have happened to the policeman."
    You need to re-read the following line from a letter by Stephen Davies, Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust: "Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    And, just in case, one more time, for you, reiner Tor, to improve your reading comprehension: "...no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    Stephen Davies, Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust

    The Stephen Davies letter doesn’t tell us as much as you suggest. A policeman isn’t normally considered a “member of the public,” and by the same token, Davies may be distinguishing between Skripal and his daughter and general passers by.

    Right in this thread, there are confusing or conflicting statements. Was there really a restaurant incident? Was it relevant? Did Skripal leave the restaurant by his car? Somebody claims there were other people in “the car.” A lot of people. Like it was a bus or something. But it was a BMW?

    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real? Someone claiming to be in the emergency room with Seth Rich wrote a lot of garbage, signifying nothing.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real?
     
    Why didn't you?

    But here you are:


    Stephen Davies
    Male

    GMC membership number: 4122151

    Specialises in:

    Accident and emergency services
    Accident and emergency services
    Locations
    Salisbury District Hospital

    Odstock Road, Salisbury, Wiltshire, SP2 8BJ
    View Accident and emergency services data

    Source
     

    , @for-the-record
    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real? Someone claiming to be in the emergency room with Seth Rich wrote a lot of garbage, signifying nothing.

    Stephen Davies is definitely real:

    https://www.nhs.uk/profiles/consultant/4122151

    That being said, I agree with you that far too much significance is being attached to his letter. The simplest, and most logical, explanation is that the letter was carelessly worded. What he almost certainly intended to say is that:

    1. none (of the other 40 people who were said to have been hospitalized) was poisoned by a nerve agent.

    2. only the 3 (Skripals + policeman) were poisoned (by a nerve agent).

    There are a huge number of problems with the official story, as Craig Murray has so thoroughly pointed out. Latching on to this ambiguously-written letter is counter-productive.
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  85. Seraphim says:
    @annamaria
    "Someone is releasing more scenarios to confuse the narrative ... I don’t know who that ‘someone’ is, but it is not Boris Johnson or Teresa May. They clearly know nothing."
    -- The brazen stupidity points towards Mossad. A sample: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4098082/Astonishing-undercover-video-captures-diplomat-conspiring-rival-MP-s-aide-smear-Deputy-Foreign-Secretary.html
    The video exposes the "way that the Israeli government has ‘infiltrated’ both the Conservative and Labour parties via its embassy in the UK, using secret cash and covert support. Further footage shows the Israeli diplomat, intelligence expert Shai Masot, telling senior Labour MP Joan Ryan that he has obtained ‘more than £1 million’ to pay for sympathetic Labour MPs to visit Israel. Mr Masot also mocks ‘crazy’Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and his ‘weirdo’ supporters. Footage shows pro-Israel Labour activists discussing the Jerusalem government’s secret role in backing their activities."
    -- Nothing changed. Boris Johnson kisses ziocons' ring ("I am a passionate Zionist," declares Boris Johnson). The opportunistic Theresa May' and Claire Perry' attack Corbin for being an honest man. A former salesperson of pots and ceramic tabletops, Gavin Williamson is selected as the UK Sec. of Def. to humiliate the UK and to use the fool and ignoramus for poking a bear.
    Kaganat of Nuland in former Ukraine. Zionists in charge of the UK government. Israel-occupied US Congress. In each case, the results of zionization are catastrophic for the ordinary people. Lies, deceit, indignity, corruption -- these are the ziocons' gifts to humanity. The deterioration of Oded Yinon plan for Eretz Israel makes the "chosen" literally mad.
    http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/boris-johnson-zionist/
    Claire Perry: "Please be assured that the UK Government does not support the singling out of Israel, nor the politicisation of UN institutions by the Palestinians. As such, the UK has already warned the UN Human Rights Council over its disproportionate bias against Israel." https://www.claireperry.org.uk/un-and-israel
    Claire Perry is a dishonest and opportunistic shill for Israel.
    Theresa May: "THERESA MAY, A ‘LONG-STANDING FRIEND OF ISRAEL", The parliamentary chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel issued a statement saying that “Israel can rest assured that the UK led by Theresa May will be there in its moments of need." http://www.jpost.com/International/Theresa-May-a-long-standing-friend-of-Israel-460145

    I have reached the same conclusions. Only a third party could have done it. A party who had the motive (souring British-Russian relations by planting false evidence that the Russians did it and linking them to the ‘imminent chemical attacks in Syria’), means (who had the poison and could introduce it unobserved in Britain), opportunity (agents who can entry and exit Britain without being surveiled, a network of logistical support above suspicion and assured of impunity if caught). Only one secret service satisfy these conditions.

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  86. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @RobinG
    The Stephen Davies letter doesn't tell us as much as you suggest. A policeman isn't normally considered a "member of the public," and by the same token, Davies may be distinguishing between Skripal and his daughter and general passers by.

    Right in this thread, there are confusing or conflicting statements. Was there really a restaurant incident? Was it relevant? Did Skripal leave the restaurant by his car? Somebody claims there were other people in "the car." A lot of people. Like it was a bus or something. But it was a BMW?

    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real? Someone claiming to be in the emergency room with Seth Rich wrote a lot of garbage, signifying nothing.

    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real?

    Why didn’t you?

    But here you are:

    Stephen Davies
    Male

    GMC membership number: 4122151

    Specialises in:

    Accident and emergency services
    Accident and emergency services
    Locations
    Salisbury District Hospital

    Odstock Road, Salisbury, Wiltshire, SP2 8BJ
    View Accident and emergency services data

    Source

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Thanks, that’s good.

    However, the other points made by RobinG still stand, probably the letter means that no one, other than the Skripals and the policeman, suffered poisoning.

    I would tend to think that the three really were poisoned, and the poison used was probably some type of nerve agent, similar to the one described by Vil Mirzayanov. It would take too big a conspiracy to just invent such a big story out of whole cloth.

    The rest of the story is interpretation: the “of a type developed by Russia” claim, and the claim that it (together with the obvious fact that it’s a former Russian spy who sold his country’s secrets to the British) in itself proves that it was the Russians, and that if so, then it’s overwhelmingly likely to have been personally ordered by Putin. All of these claims are a bit dubious, to put it mildly.
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  87. Brewer says:

    Probably food poisoning – very dodgy those I-talian restaurants in Salisbury.

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  88. @CanSpeccy

    Sure others should notice that the story makes no sense. There’s no evidence, after all. But they don’t seem to notice.
     

    The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.
    J. Goebbels
     

    Indeed
    Philip M. Taylor, ‘Munitions of the Mind, A History of Propaganda from the Ancient World to the Present Day’, 1995, Manchester
    Sir Campbell Stuart K.B.E., ‘Secrets of Crewe House, The Story of a Famous Campaign’, 1920, London

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  89. @CanSpeccy

    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real?
     
    Why didn't you?

    But here you are:


    Stephen Davies
    Male

    GMC membership number: 4122151

    Specialises in:

    Accident and emergency services
    Accident and emergency services
    Locations
    Salisbury District Hospital

    Odstock Road, Salisbury, Wiltshire, SP2 8BJ
    View Accident and emergency services data

    Source
     

    Thanks, that’s good.

    However, the other points made by RobinG still stand, probably the letter means that no one, other than the Skripals and the policeman, suffered poisoning.

    I would tend to think that the three really were poisoned, and the poison used was probably some type of nerve agent, similar to the one described by Vil Mirzayanov. It would take too big a conspiracy to just invent such a big story out of whole cloth.

    The rest of the story is interpretation: the “of a type developed by Russia” claim, and the claim that it (together with the obvious fact that it’s a former Russian spy who sold his country’s secrets to the British) in itself proves that it was the Russians, and that if so, then it’s overwhelmingly likely to have been personally ordered by Putin. All of these claims are a bit dubious, to put it mildly.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    Agreed, "All of these claims are a bit dubious, to put it mildly." That is putting it mildly, indeed. The hysterical presentation of the claims by May should be enough to tip anyone hearing them to the fact that they are obviously nonsense.

    Johnson's assertion that the Russians should shut up and go away is further proof that the UK's two clowns in charge of pushing these claims are full of shit.
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  90. @RobinG
    The Stephen Davies letter doesn't tell us as much as you suggest. A policeman isn't normally considered a "member of the public," and by the same token, Davies may be distinguishing between Skripal and his daughter and general passers by.

    Right in this thread, there are confusing or conflicting statements. Was there really a restaurant incident? Was it relevant? Did Skripal leave the restaurant by his car? Somebody claims there were other people in "the car." A lot of people. Like it was a bus or something. But it was a BMW?

    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real? Someone claiming to be in the emergency room with Seth Rich wrote a lot of garbage, signifying nothing.

    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real? Someone claiming to be in the emergency room with Seth Rich wrote a lot of garbage, signifying nothing.

    Stephen Davies is definitely real:

    https://www.nhs.uk/profiles/consultant/4122151

    That being said, I agree with you that far too much significance is being attached to his letter. The simplest, and most logical, explanation is that the letter was carelessly worded. What he almost certainly intended to say is that:

    1. none (of the other 40 people who were said to have been hospitalized) was poisoned by a nerve agent.

    2. only the 3 (Skripals + policeman) were poisoned (by a nerve agent).

    There are a huge number of problems with the official story, as Craig Murray has so thoroughly pointed out. Latching on to this ambiguously-written letter is counter-productive.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    That being said, I agree with you that far too much significance is being attached to his letter. The simplest, and most logical, explanation is that the letter was carelessly worded. What he almost certainly intended to say
     
    If he intended to say what you say he intended to say, why didn't the Times edit the letter to make sure that it said what the author meant. That's why newspapers employ editors, to make sure that what they publish makes sense.

    But in this case, you say, the Times didn't bother. I suppose they didn't think the subject was important enough to get the facts straight.

    Or was it that the Times edited the letter to obscure the author's exact meaning?

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  91. @Tommo
    I thought the Japs dragged you into ww2. And a bunch of lesser messes? Are you serious?

    https://popularresistance.org/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-in-37-nations-since-wwii/

    The Japs were just a necessary excuse to formalise what had been going on for some time. And remember that a lot of what the Japs took or threatened in the Pacific was part of the British Empire.

    Read More
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  92. @Randal

    although it was geographically in Russia
     
    * I should have noted here I suppose that this was the case assuming the original dissident's story is correct and it was developed in Russia and only tested in Uzbekistan.

    I take your point that Novichok, if it exists, was probably developed in Russia, then tested and manufactured at the Nukus Institute in Uzbekhistan. Of course, the MSM have totally failed to say anything about the agent being dispersed or sold in the early 1990s or the Institute being under US Govt control for most of that decade.

    “In fact I was just getting information today that the professor of organo-chemistry at Cornell University has today published that “given the information available on the formulae, any of his third year students could do it in his university”.”

    This makes it less likely that Novichok is a 4th Generation Nerve Agent and more likely it was a KGB propaganda op.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Randal

    This makes it less likely that Novichok is a 4th Generation Nerve Agent and more likely it was a KGB propaganda op.
     
    It just confirms what I've heard from a couple of university chemists who told me that they'd be surprised if they couldn't synthesise it in their university labs, based on the general descriptions, if they had the formulae for it which are apparently in the book. As they point out, they routinely deal with extremely poisonous and corrosive substances anyway.

    I tend to think there's too much noise about it to make the idea that there's no substance at the bottom convincing. Plus the substances in question are both highly poisonous anyway and very complex and numerous. The idea that you could find a whole bunch of very dangerous chemicals with all kinds of useful properties if you spent time looking just doesn't surprise me at all. Though as I said, I'm not a chemist - my degree was maths/physics.
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  93. @The Alarmist
    Considering the Brits dragged us into two World Wars and a bunch of lesser but nevertheless costly messes, why the f*** do we listen to, much less believe, anything they say that points even in the general direction of conflict with Russia?

    Does anyone in American leadership even fathom that the UK have a big chip on their shoulder for us knocking them off the top of the list of great empires and adding insult to injury by essentially forcing them to dismantle their empire, and then pushing them into a vassal state of the EU so we could better manage them as but one of many vassals?

    It appears to me that the UK’s influence on US policy comes from Rothschild banking interests rather than from the UK’s government. UK politicians are every bit as absurdly vapid as their US colleagues. In cases like this one (the chemical weapon accusation by May and Johnson) the Brit politicians look exactly like McCain or Pelosi, throwing a tantrum instead of presenting a case for the agenda they have been instructed to push.

    The same hand is inside both sock puppets, UK and US.

    Read More
    • Agree: The Alarmist
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    Re:

    Rothschild banking interests
     
    Could you, as a service to all readers, provide a list of the main Rothschild banking interests, their market cap., or total value privately held, and relate these values to the the value of, say, Goldman Sachs, Apple Inc., Facebook, etc. We'd then know what kind of a monster the Rothschild banking interests really are.

    Or are the Rothschild bankin interests perhaps no longer monstrous? Are they in fact very largely a figment of the imagination of the followers of the likes of Alex Jones and Henry Makow, a financial counterpart of the long defunct Illuminati, the evil influence of which the alt right so often warn.

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  94. Randal says:
    @Verymuchalive
    I take your point that Novichok, if it exists, was probably developed in Russia, then tested and manufactured at the Nukus Institute in Uzbekhistan. Of course, the MSM have totally failed to say anything about the agent being dispersed or sold in the early 1990s or the Institute being under US Govt control for most of that decade.

    “In fact I was just getting information today that the professor of organo-chemistry at Cornell University has today published that “given the information available on the formulae, any of his third year students could do it in his university”.”

     
    This makes it less likely that Novichok is a 4th Generation Nerve Agent and more likely it was a KGB propaganda op.

    This makes it less likely that Novichok is a 4th Generation Nerve Agent and more likely it was a KGB propaganda op.

    It just confirms what I’ve heard from a couple of university chemists who told me that they’d be surprised if they couldn’t synthesise it in their university labs, based on the general descriptions, if they had the formulae for it which are apparently in the book. As they point out, they routinely deal with extremely poisonous and corrosive substances anyway.

    I tend to think there’s too much noise about it to make the idea that there’s no substance at the bottom convincing. Plus the substances in question are both highly poisonous anyway and very complex and numerous. The idea that you could find a whole bunch of very dangerous chemicals with all kinds of useful properties if you spent time looking just doesn’t surprise me at all. Though as I said, I’m not a chemist – my degree was maths/physics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    Israel Shamir, quotes Andrey Lazarchuk, No 3 response to Philip Giraldi's article, who seems to think that it may be a KGB disinformation exercise and the West spent $10 billion in efforts to counteract this non-existent nerve agent. He also thinks that the Skripals may have been poisoned by some other, weaker neurotoxin. It's the sort of thing the MSM should be looking into but aren't.

    Israel Shamir says:

    March 20, 2018 at 6:24 am GMT • 400 Words


    Another View of Salisbury Accident
    This brief note by Andrey Lazarchuk has been published in the social networks. It is interesting, and it agrees with revealed facts. Whether it is true or not – remains to be seen. Here is his text in verbatim translation:
    Do not ask for the source of the information, I will not give it up. Everything written below is very different from what you can find on the web.
    1. Already in the early 1980s, the Soviet Army ceased to treat CW (Chemical Weapons) as a weapon that could be used in real war conditions: approximately in 1983-84 it was decided to cease CW supplies to the army, reduce operational reserves and take out CW from the troops to long-term storage warehouses and landfills for destruction. At the same time and until 1996, there were no new CW products supplied to the army, neither new instructions for use and protection.
    2. Mirzoyanov, majoring in chemistry and analytics, never worked at theoretical developments or practical synthesis. All 1980s he worked in the administration (First Department).
    3. In the second half of the 1980s, the KGB carried out a large-scale operation to dis-inform the enemy, which also had the side-line task of identifying information leakage channels. Twenty “fake” but very detailed projects were developed for “a new chemical super-weapon that is not detected by existing NATO detectors and from which there is no protection” (NOVA with indices, “Novichok” with indices, ASD and others). The Novichok passed through the hands of Mirzoyanov.
    4. The factory-laboratory in Kantyubek in the late 70′s was re-profiled from the creation and testing of CW and BW for the production and testing of herbicides and defoliants – mainly for the needs of the cotton industry.
    5. Mirzoyanov as a source of leakage was identified immediately. In the 1990, he was removed from all real work, through he remained a conduit of disinformation. In 1992, he revealed himself voluntarily by publishing the well-known article. From that moment, the Novichok attracted media interests. In the 1995, NYT wrote about the “new Russian super-weapon”.
    6. NATO had spent more than $ 10 billion on defence against this fake weapon.
    7. What actually happened in Salisbury is unclear; nor the behavior of the poisoned, nor the actions of the police, doctors, special services do not add up to the whole picture. More or less plausible is the poisoning with a synthetic neurotoxin, similar to the toxin of fugu fish.
    Brief summary: “Novichok” is not the name of the CW, but the code of the KGB operation carried out to identify the mole (the information leakage channel), as well as the supply of disinformation. End of Lazarchuk’s note.

    , @reiner Tor
    I think most chemical weapons are used as some kind of binary agents, where two different chemicals are stored separately, and are only mixed together before usage (ideally inside the warhead or bomb). I guess even if you know the formula, you need to spend some time looking to create the two precursor chemicals, which need to be both more stable than the actual poison and at the same time less poisonous (ideally, not poisonous at all). So maybe the thing which chemists could produce at a university lab is probably the end product, but it’s not so easy to use it effectively as a weapon, especially if you want to kill two people (but preferably no one else). It also usually requires some tricks to disperse it over a large area (if you want to use it as a regular chemical weapon), though that was not an issue here.

    I’m not a chemist, so others with more knowledge of the issue might correct me later on.
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  95. @reiner Tor
    Thanks, that’s good.

    However, the other points made by RobinG still stand, probably the letter means that no one, other than the Skripals and the policeman, suffered poisoning.

    I would tend to think that the three really were poisoned, and the poison used was probably some type of nerve agent, similar to the one described by Vil Mirzayanov. It would take too big a conspiracy to just invent such a big story out of whole cloth.

    The rest of the story is interpretation: the “of a type developed by Russia” claim, and the claim that it (together with the obvious fact that it’s a former Russian spy who sold his country’s secrets to the British) in itself proves that it was the Russians, and that if so, then it’s overwhelmingly likely to have been personally ordered by Putin. All of these claims are a bit dubious, to put it mildly.

    Agreed, “All of these claims are a bit dubious, to put it mildly.” That is putting it mildly, indeed. The hysterical presentation of the claims by May should be enough to tip anyone hearing them to the fact that they are obviously nonsense.

    Johnson’s assertion that the Russians should shut up and go away is further proof that the UK’s two clowns in charge of pushing these claims are full of shit.

    Read More
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  96. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @Kiza
    Nah you jumped to conclusion. All those horrible things have been done by the men of the type developed by Russia.

    Anon from TN
    Yea, you are right: men of the type developed by Russia are the culprits. We all know that highly suspicious type that unambiguously points to Russia: two legs, two hands, one head, two eyes. Gotcha!

    Read More
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  97. @Randal

    This makes it less likely that Novichok is a 4th Generation Nerve Agent and more likely it was a KGB propaganda op.
     
    It just confirms what I've heard from a couple of university chemists who told me that they'd be surprised if they couldn't synthesise it in their university labs, based on the general descriptions, if they had the formulae for it which are apparently in the book. As they point out, they routinely deal with extremely poisonous and corrosive substances anyway.

    I tend to think there's too much noise about it to make the idea that there's no substance at the bottom convincing. Plus the substances in question are both highly poisonous anyway and very complex and numerous. The idea that you could find a whole bunch of very dangerous chemicals with all kinds of useful properties if you spent time looking just doesn't surprise me at all. Though as I said, I'm not a chemist - my degree was maths/physics.

    Israel Shamir, quotes Andrey Lazarchuk, No 3 response to Philip Giraldi’s article, who seems to think that it may be a KGB disinformation exercise and the West spent $10 billion in efforts to counteract this non-existent nerve agent. He also thinks that the Skripals may have been poisoned by some other, weaker neurotoxin. It’s the sort of thing the MSM should be looking into but aren’t.

    Israel Shamir says:

    March 20, 2018 at 6:24 am GMT • 400 Words

    Another View of Salisbury Accident
    This brief note by Andrey Lazarchuk has been published in the social networks. It is interesting, and it agrees with revealed facts. Whether it is true or not – remains to be seen. Here is his text in verbatim translation:
    Do not ask for the source of the information, I will not give it up. Everything written below is very different from what you can find on the web.
    1. Already in the early 1980s, the Soviet Army ceased to treat CW (Chemical Weapons) as a weapon that could be used in real war conditions: approximately in 1983-84 it was decided to cease CW supplies to the army, reduce operational reserves and take out CW from the troops to long-term storage warehouses and landfills for destruction. At the same time and until 1996, there were no new CW products supplied to the army, neither new instructions for use and protection.
    2. Mirzoyanov, majoring in chemistry and analytics, never worked at theoretical developments or practical synthesis. All 1980s he worked in the administration (First Department).
    3. In the second half of the 1980s, the KGB carried out a large-scale operation to dis-inform the enemy, which also had the side-line task of identifying information leakage channels. Twenty “fake” but very detailed projects were developed for “a new chemical super-weapon that is not detected by existing NATO detectors and from which there is no protection” (NOVA with indices, “Novichok” with indices, ASD and others). The Novichok passed through the hands of Mirzoyanov.
    4. The factory-laboratory in Kantyubek in the late 70′s was re-profiled from the creation and testing of CW and BW for the production and testing of herbicides and defoliants – mainly for the needs of the cotton industry.
    5. Mirzoyanov as a source of leakage was identified immediately. In the 1990, he was removed from all real work, through he remained a conduit of disinformation. In 1992, he revealed himself voluntarily by publishing the well-known article. From that moment, the Novichok attracted media interests. In the 1995, NYT wrote about the “new Russian super-weapon”.
    6. NATO had spent more than $ 10 billion on defence against this fake weapon.
    7. What actually happened in Salisbury is unclear; nor the behavior of the poisoned, nor the actions of the police, doctors, special services do not add up to the whole picture. More or less plausible is the poisoning with a synthetic neurotoxin, similar to the toxin of fugu fish.
    Brief summary: “Novichok” is not the name of the CW, but the code of the KGB operation carried out to identify the mole (the information leakage channel), as well as the supply of disinformation. End of Lazarchuk’s note.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Randal
    I have no idea how reliable Andrey Lazarchuk is, nor how reliable his unnamed source might be, so it's impossible to assess what degree of confidence should be given to this info. At the moment, I'd hold it in the background as a possibility while waiting to see what else emerges as the various string ends are pulled and the players try to defend and promote their positions.
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  98. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @annamaria
    This Canada's Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/chrystia-freelands-granddad-was-indeed-a-nazi-collaborator-so-much-for-russian-disinformation
    Christya used to tell stories about her grandpa being a victim of Soviet regime. But there are irrefutable facts about her grandpa being an active Nazi collaborator famous for enjoying the confiscated property of Nazi' victims. The grandpa was an editor of a Nazi newspaper Krakivski Visti.
    "Here is what the Los Angeles Holocaust Museum has to say about Krakivski Visti: “The editorial boards carried out a policy of soliciting Ukrainian support for the German cause ...It was typical, within these publications, to not to give any accounts of the German genocidal policy, and largely, the editions resorted to silencing the mass killing of Jews in Galicia. Ukrainian newspapers presented the Jewish Question in light of the official Nazi propaganda... In 1943 and 1944, both Lvivski Visti and Krakivski Visti hailed the German-approved formation of the 14th Waffen SS Division Halychyna, composed of Ukrainian volunteers."
    “Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland knew for more than two decades that her maternal Ukrainian grandfather was the chief editor of a Nazi newspaper.” ...
    They should have added that her grandfather was the chief beneficiary of murdered Polish Jews.
    "Chrystia Freeland’s Family Record for Nazi War Profiteering, and Murder of the Cracow Jews:" https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/01/27/chrystia-freeland-family-record-nazi-war-murder-cracow-jews.html
    Chrystia Freeland is, of course, a darling of the US ziocons and Canadian neo-Nazis.

    Anon from TN
    I did not know this about that particular personage, but the pattern is pretty usual. Donald Tusk’s grandfather served parteigenosse Hitler as a volunteer. Latvia and Estonia annually hold parades of Waffen SS veterans and their admirers. “Hero of Ukraine” Shukhevich was Waffen SS Hauptmann. Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol Hitler.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol, Hitler."
    -- And look who is in the vanguard of the Russophobia – the ziocons. The pillars of the Jewish community, from the Kagans to Kolomojsky, have joined their hands with neo-Nazis. Not a peep from the Holocaust biz. The ADL, the Lobby at large, and the Israelis are happy to see the neo-Nazis as partners in a fight for "the democracy on the march" in the Middle East and Ukraine. The next step should be an introduction of the neo-Nazis to the halls of fame of Holocaust museums. Along with the "freedom fighters" of ISIS.
    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/13/the-mess-that-nuland-made/
    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/20/a-family-business-of-perpetual-war/
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665
    https://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/13/ignoring-ukraines-neo-nazi-storm-troopers/
    https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/27/a-nazi-skeleton-in-the-family-closet/
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  99. annamaria says:

    The real butcher of Lybia is arrested: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-20/former-french-president-sarkozy-arrested-over-campaign-financing\
    “Former French president Nicolas Sarkozy was arrested on Tuesday morning in connection with a probe into the financing of his successful 2007 presidential run which allegedly included funding from late Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi.”
    – The next Q: Where is Libyan gold?
    – Another Q: Why Clinton, Powers, and Rice are still roaming free?

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    What did he butcher ?
    That Sarko is a criminal we know for a long time.
    In 2005 he was in France Minister of the Interior, the allegation is that he deliberately let the rebellions in the Muslims ghetto escalate, so that he could show himself capable of restoring order.
    The Ghadaffi financing has been known for a long time, hard evidence however was never produced.
    His first wife, who left him, said about him 'he just loves himself'.
    France speculates that real evidence now has surfaced.
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  100. @Randal

    This makes it less likely that Novichok is a 4th Generation Nerve Agent and more likely it was a KGB propaganda op.
     
    It just confirms what I've heard from a couple of university chemists who told me that they'd be surprised if they couldn't synthesise it in their university labs, based on the general descriptions, if they had the formulae for it which are apparently in the book. As they point out, they routinely deal with extremely poisonous and corrosive substances anyway.

    I tend to think there's too much noise about it to make the idea that there's no substance at the bottom convincing. Plus the substances in question are both highly poisonous anyway and very complex and numerous. The idea that you could find a whole bunch of very dangerous chemicals with all kinds of useful properties if you spent time looking just doesn't surprise me at all. Though as I said, I'm not a chemist - my degree was maths/physics.

    I think most chemical weapons are used as some kind of binary agents, where two different chemicals are stored separately, and are only mixed together before usage (ideally inside the warhead or bomb). I guess even if you know the formula, you need to spend some time looking to create the two precursor chemicals, which need to be both more stable than the actual poison and at the same time less poisonous (ideally, not poisonous at all). So maybe the thing which chemists could produce at a university lab is probably the end product, but it’s not so easy to use it effectively as a weapon, especially if you want to kill two people (but preferably no one else). It also usually requires some tricks to disperse it over a large area (if you want to use it as a regular chemical weapon), though that was not an issue here.

    I’m not a chemist, so others with more knowledge of the issue might correct me later on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Randal
    Clearly there are engineering issues to be resolved as well, but that's a separate matter really. And equally clearly it might take some time to isolate the various useful forms (precursors, etc).

    The point based upon the quote given by Murray, which accords with speculation made by qualified friends of mine, is that there is nothing evident in the chemistry which is, in principle, beyond the capabilities of ordinary albeit reasonably well funded university research facilities.
    , @RobinG
    "...two different chemicals are stored separately, and are only mixed together before usage (ideally inside the warhead or bomb)."

    Or, in the toilet. True story: clean-o-holic roommate overcome by fumes of Clorox-ammonia cocktail. LOL.
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  101. @annamaria
    The real butcher of Lybia is arrested: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-20/former-french-president-sarkozy-arrested-over-campaign-financing\
    "Former French president Nicolas Sarkozy was arrested on Tuesday morning in connection with a probe into the financing of his successful 2007 presidential run which allegedly included funding from late Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi."
    -- The next Q: Where is Libyan gold?
    -- Another Q: Why Clinton, Powers, and Rice are still roaming free?

    What did he butcher ?
    That Sarko is a criminal we know for a long time.
    In 2005 he was in France Minister of the Interior, the allegation is that he deliberately let the rebellions in the Muslims ghetto escalate, so that he could show himself capable of restoring order.
    The Ghadaffi financing has been known for a long time, hard evidence however was never produced.
    His first wife, who left him, said about him ‘he just loves himself’.
    France speculates that real evidence now has surfaced.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "What did he butcher?"
    You are right, Sarkozy the Butcher was in a company of other Butchers (war criminals) -- Obama, Cameron, and Harper.
    https://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/09/15/cameron-and-sarkozy-to-carry-on-bombing-libya/ "Cameron and Sarkozy to carry on bombing Libya"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya "On 19 March 2011, a multi-state NATO-led coalition began a military intervention in Libya, ostensibly to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. ... The resolution was taken in response to events during the Libyan Civil War, and military operations began, with American and British naval forces firing over 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles, the French Air Force, British Royal Air Force, and Royal Canadian Air Force undertaking sorties across Libya and a naval blockade by Coalition forces. French jets launched air strikes against Libyan Army tanks and vehicles."
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  102. Randal says:
    @reiner Tor
    I think most chemical weapons are used as some kind of binary agents, where two different chemicals are stored separately, and are only mixed together before usage (ideally inside the warhead or bomb). I guess even if you know the formula, you need to spend some time looking to create the two precursor chemicals, which need to be both more stable than the actual poison and at the same time less poisonous (ideally, not poisonous at all). So maybe the thing which chemists could produce at a university lab is probably the end product, but it’s not so easy to use it effectively as a weapon, especially if you want to kill two people (but preferably no one else). It also usually requires some tricks to disperse it over a large area (if you want to use it as a regular chemical weapon), though that was not an issue here.

    I’m not a chemist, so others with more knowledge of the issue might correct me later on.

    Clearly there are engineering issues to be resolved as well, but that’s a separate matter really. And equally clearly it might take some time to isolate the various useful forms (precursors, etc).

    The point based upon the quote given by Murray, which accords with speculation made by qualified friends of mine, is that there is nothing evident in the chemistry which is, in principle, beyond the capabilities of ordinary albeit reasonably well funded university research facilities.

    Read More
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  103. Randal says:
    @Verymuchalive
    Israel Shamir, quotes Andrey Lazarchuk, No 3 response to Philip Giraldi's article, who seems to think that it may be a KGB disinformation exercise and the West spent $10 billion in efforts to counteract this non-existent nerve agent. He also thinks that the Skripals may have been poisoned by some other, weaker neurotoxin. It's the sort of thing the MSM should be looking into but aren't.

    Israel Shamir says:

    March 20, 2018 at 6:24 am GMT • 400 Words


    Another View of Salisbury Accident
    This brief note by Andrey Lazarchuk has been published in the social networks. It is interesting, and it agrees with revealed facts. Whether it is true or not – remains to be seen. Here is his text in verbatim translation:
    Do not ask for the source of the information, I will not give it up. Everything written below is very different from what you can find on the web.
    1. Already in the early 1980s, the Soviet Army ceased to treat CW (Chemical Weapons) as a weapon that could be used in real war conditions: approximately in 1983-84 it was decided to cease CW supplies to the army, reduce operational reserves and take out CW from the troops to long-term storage warehouses and landfills for destruction. At the same time and until 1996, there were no new CW products supplied to the army, neither new instructions for use and protection.
    2. Mirzoyanov, majoring in chemistry and analytics, never worked at theoretical developments or practical synthesis. All 1980s he worked in the administration (First Department).
    3. In the second half of the 1980s, the KGB carried out a large-scale operation to dis-inform the enemy, which also had the side-line task of identifying information leakage channels. Twenty “fake” but very detailed projects were developed for “a new chemical super-weapon that is not detected by existing NATO detectors and from which there is no protection” (NOVA with indices, “Novichok” with indices, ASD and others). The Novichok passed through the hands of Mirzoyanov.
    4. The factory-laboratory in Kantyubek in the late 70′s was re-profiled from the creation and testing of CW and BW for the production and testing of herbicides and defoliants – mainly for the needs of the cotton industry.
    5. Mirzoyanov as a source of leakage was identified immediately. In the 1990, he was removed from all real work, through he remained a conduit of disinformation. In 1992, he revealed himself voluntarily by publishing the well-known article. From that moment, the Novichok attracted media interests. In the 1995, NYT wrote about the “new Russian super-weapon”.
    6. NATO had spent more than $ 10 billion on defence against this fake weapon.
    7. What actually happened in Salisbury is unclear; nor the behavior of the poisoned, nor the actions of the police, doctors, special services do not add up to the whole picture. More or less plausible is the poisoning with a synthetic neurotoxin, similar to the toxin of fugu fish.
    Brief summary: “Novichok” is not the name of the CW, but the code of the KGB operation carried out to identify the mole (the information leakage channel), as well as the supply of disinformation. End of Lazarchuk’s note.

    I have no idea how reliable Andrey Lazarchuk is, nor how reliable his unnamed source might be, so it’s impossible to assess what degree of confidence should be given to this info. At the moment, I’d hold it in the background as a possibility while waiting to see what else emerges as the various string ends are pulled and the players try to defend and promote their positions.

    Read More
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  104. annamaria says:
    @AnonFromTN
    Anon from TN
    I did not know this about that particular personage, but the pattern is pretty usual. Donald Tusk’s grandfather served parteigenosse Hitler as a volunteer. Latvia and Estonia annually hold parades of Waffen SS veterans and their admirers. “Hero of Ukraine” Shukhevich was Waffen SS Hauptmann. Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol Hitler.

    “Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol, Hitler.”
    – And look who is in the vanguard of the Russophobia – the ziocons. The pillars of the Jewish community, from the Kagans to Kolomojsky, have joined their hands with neo-Nazis. Not a peep from the Holocaust biz. The ADL, the Lobby at large, and the Israelis are happy to see the neo-Nazis as partners in a fight for “the democracy on the march” in the Middle East and Ukraine. The next step should be an introduction of the neo-Nazis to the halls of fame of Holocaust museums. Along with the “freedom fighters” of ISIS.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/13/the-mess-that-nuland-made/

    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/20/a-family-business-of-perpetual-war/

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665

    https://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/13/ignoring-ukraines-neo-nazi-storm-troopers/

    https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/27/a-nazi-skeleton-in-the-family-closet/

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    “Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol, Hitler.”
     
    There were plenty of Canadians who fought and suffered in the war against Hitler, so it is quite unfair to brand Canadians as Nazi-lovers.

    However, it is true that many Nazi collaborators from the Ukraine and elsewhere migrated to Canada after WWII. These include the grandfather of Canada's present Minister of External Affairs, Chrystia Freeland, who like her grandfather, is a Ukrainian nationalist.

    It has also been claimed that during WWII, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, father of Canada's present Prime Minister, rode around Montreal on a motorbike wearing a helmet decorated with a swastika. But then there seemed to be no tyrant that Pierre Elliot Trudeau did not admire. He had great respect for Mao Tse Tung, and was a close personal friend of the Cuban dictator, Castro. In that respect Justin Trudeau seems to follow in his father's footsteps, pandering to the Canada's Nazi backing Ukrainian nationalists and expressing his great admiration for the Cuban dictator.

    In any case, Trudeau is clearly not a committed democrat, having declared the abolition of the Canadian nation, and his preference for immigrants over the native born.
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  105. annamaria says:
    @jilles dykstra
    What did he butcher ?
    That Sarko is a criminal we know for a long time.
    In 2005 he was in France Minister of the Interior, the allegation is that he deliberately let the rebellions in the Muslims ghetto escalate, so that he could show himself capable of restoring order.
    The Ghadaffi financing has been known for a long time, hard evidence however was never produced.
    His first wife, who left him, said about him 'he just loves himself'.
    France speculates that real evidence now has surfaced.

    “What did he butcher?”
    You are right, Sarkozy the Butcher was in a company of other Butchers (war criminals) — Obama, Cameron, and Harper.
    https://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/09/15/cameron-and-sarkozy-to-carry-on-bombing-libya/ “Cameron and Sarkozy to carry on bombing Libya”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya “On 19 March 2011, a multi-state NATO-led coalition began a military intervention in Libya, ostensibly to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. … The resolution was taken in response to events during the Libyan Civil War, and military operations began, with American and British naval forces firing over 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles, the French Air Force, British Royal Air Force, and Royal Canadian Air Force undertaking sorties across Libya and a naval blockade by Coalition forces. French jets launched air strikes against Libyan Army tanks and vehicles.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    I have so become accustomed to western bombing that I do not even see it as butchering.
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  106. annamaria says:

    The deafening silence of the ziocon-owned MSM: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/03/votel-mattis-and-dunford-must-be-on-the-same-page.html#comments
    “The top U.S. general in the Middle East testified before Congress this week and dropped several bombshells.
    U.S. Army General Joseph Votel said the best way to deter Russia, which backs Assad, was through political and diplomatic channels.
    Republican Senator Lindsey Graham asked whether it was too strong to say that with Russia and Iran’s help, Assad had “won” the civil war in Syria. “I do not think that is too strong of a statement,” Votel said. Graham also asked if the United States’ policy on Syria was still to seek the removal of Assad from power. “I don’t know that that’s our particular policy at this particular point. Our focus remains on the defeat of ISIS,” Votel said, using an acronym for Islamic State. ”
    Comment section:
    1. “the MSM has said zero about what Votel, Mattis and Dunford have said or thought about Iran and Syria. … The fact that the MSM is so silent makes me think the MSM wants Votel’s statements to die in silence under the MSM Cone of Silence. Meaning the MSM and its masters reject these statements but can only hope to starve them of attention because the MSM couldn’t prevent Votel from making them.”
    2. “I suggest that the community get busy and post this information and links to as many comment pages in the MSM pages as possible. Time to fight for the Republic.”
    Summary: The US brass shows patriotism by refusing to bend before the Lobby and send American boys and girls to die for Oded Yinon Plan of Eretz Israel in Syria and Iran. The MSM is dead-silent about the testimony of the brave and patriotic American military before the US Congress. The MSM wants to talk about the false flag in the UK to jazz up the hysterics against Russians.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-18/us-centcom-chief-comes-clean-generals-three-stunning-admissions-mid-east

    – The ziocon parasitoid must be pushed back hard. “Time to fight for the Republic!” indeed.

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  107. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @for-the-record
    Has anybody checked if Stephen Davies is real? Someone claiming to be in the emergency room with Seth Rich wrote a lot of garbage, signifying nothing.

    Stephen Davies is definitely real:

    https://www.nhs.uk/profiles/consultant/4122151

    That being said, I agree with you that far too much significance is being attached to his letter. The simplest, and most logical, explanation is that the letter was carelessly worded. What he almost certainly intended to say is that:

    1. none (of the other 40 people who were said to have been hospitalized) was poisoned by a nerve agent.

    2. only the 3 (Skripals + policeman) were poisoned (by a nerve agent).

    There are a huge number of problems with the official story, as Craig Murray has so thoroughly pointed out. Latching on to this ambiguously-written letter is counter-productive.

    That being said, I agree with you that far too much significance is being attached to his letter. The simplest, and most logical, explanation is that the letter was carelessly worded. What he almost certainly intended to say

    If he intended to say what you say he intended to say, why didn’t the Times edit the letter to make sure that it said what the author meant. That’s why newspapers employ editors, to make sure that what they publish makes sense.

    But in this case, you say, the Times didn’t bother. I suppose they didn’t think the subject was important enough to get the facts straight.

    Or was it that the Times edited the letter to obscure the author’s exact meaning?

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  108. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Twodees Partain
    It appears to me that the UK's influence on US policy comes from Rothschild banking interests rather than from the UK's government. UK politicians are every bit as absurdly vapid as their US colleagues. In cases like this one (the chemical weapon accusation by May and Johnson) the Brit politicians look exactly like McCain or Pelosi, throwing a tantrum instead of presenting a case for the agenda they have been instructed to push.

    The same hand is inside both sock puppets, UK and US.

    Re:

    Rothschild banking interests

    Could you, as a service to all readers, provide a list of the main Rothschild banking interests, their market cap., or total value privately held, and relate these values to the the value of, say, Goldman Sachs, Apple Inc., Facebook, etc. We’d then know what kind of a monster the Rothschild banking interests really are.

    Or are the Rothschild bankin interests perhaps no longer monstrous? Are they in fact very largely a figment of the imagination of the followers of the likes of Alex Jones and Henry Makow, a financial counterpart of the long defunct Illuminati, the evil influence of which the alt right so often warn.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    It's actually The Vampire Squid, but why quibble ... he was on the right track.
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  109. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @annamaria
    "Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol, Hitler."
    -- And look who is in the vanguard of the Russophobia – the ziocons. The pillars of the Jewish community, from the Kagans to Kolomojsky, have joined their hands with neo-Nazis. Not a peep from the Holocaust biz. The ADL, the Lobby at large, and the Israelis are happy to see the neo-Nazis as partners in a fight for "the democracy on the march" in the Middle East and Ukraine. The next step should be an introduction of the neo-Nazis to the halls of fame of Holocaust museums. Along with the "freedom fighters" of ISIS.
    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/13/the-mess-that-nuland-made/
    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/20/a-family-business-of-perpetual-war/
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665
    https://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/13/ignoring-ukraines-neo-nazi-storm-troopers/
    https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/27/a-nazi-skeleton-in-the-family-closet/

    “Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol, Hitler.”

    There were plenty of Canadians who fought and suffered in the war against Hitler, so it is quite unfair to brand Canadians as Nazi-lovers.

    However, it is true that many Nazi collaborators from the Ukraine and elsewhere migrated to Canada after WWII. These include the grandfather of Canada’s present Minister of External Affairs, Chrystia Freeland, who like her grandfather, is a Ukrainian nationalist.

    It has also been claimed that during WWII, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, father of Canada’s present Prime Minister, rode around Montreal on a motorbike wearing a helmet decorated with a swastika. But then there seemed to be no tyrant that Pierre Elliot Trudeau did not admire. He had great respect for Mao Tse Tung, and was a close personal friend of the Cuban dictator, Castro. In that respect Justin Trudeau seems to follow in his father’s footsteps, pandering to the Canada’s Nazi backing Ukrainian nationalists and expressing his great admiration for the Cuban dictator.

    In any case, Trudeau is clearly not a committed democrat, having declared the abolition of the Canadian nation, and his preference for immigrants over the native born.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Just after the Baltic states became EU member states I was in Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania.
    Quite close to the parliament building was written on a street sign 'Americans, go home'.
    A foreigner who had lived long there, and spoke lithuanian, told me that when Bush visited Lithuania, 30.000 Lithuanian were selected to cheer him, waving USA flags.
    , @Anonymous
    And can you maybe think of any reasons the Ukrainians might have taken the German NS side against the Soviets?

    Any reasons at all?

    Maybe like because the Soviets starved ~ 1/3 of the Ukrainian Christian Peasant population in the Holodomor?

    Jees
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  110. RobinG says:
    @reiner Tor
    I think most chemical weapons are used as some kind of binary agents, where two different chemicals are stored separately, and are only mixed together before usage (ideally inside the warhead or bomb). I guess even if you know the formula, you need to spend some time looking to create the two precursor chemicals, which need to be both more stable than the actual poison and at the same time less poisonous (ideally, not poisonous at all). So maybe the thing which chemists could produce at a university lab is probably the end product, but it’s not so easy to use it effectively as a weapon, especially if you want to kill two people (but preferably no one else). It also usually requires some tricks to disperse it over a large area (if you want to use it as a regular chemical weapon), though that was not an issue here.

    I’m not a chemist, so others with more knowledge of the issue might correct me later on.

    “…two different chemicals are stored separately, and are only mixed together before usage (ideally inside the warhead or bomb).”

    Or, in the toilet. True story: clean-o-holic roommate overcome by fumes of Clorox-ammonia cocktail. LOL.

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  111. @CanSpeccy
    Re:

    Rothschild banking interests
     
    Could you, as a service to all readers, provide a list of the main Rothschild banking interests, their market cap., or total value privately held, and relate these values to the the value of, say, Goldman Sachs, Apple Inc., Facebook, etc. We'd then know what kind of a monster the Rothschild banking interests really are.

    Or are the Rothschild bankin interests perhaps no longer monstrous? Are they in fact very largely a figment of the imagination of the followers of the likes of Alex Jones and Henry Makow, a financial counterpart of the long defunct Illuminati, the evil influence of which the alt right so often warn.

    It’s actually The Vampire Squid, but why quibble … he was on the right track.

    Read More
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  112. israel shamir was right, this was done so the old money of yeltsin era oligarchs can be seized.

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  113. Erebus says:

    Thierry Meyssan’s article places the Skripals, Tillerson’s firing, Gerasimov’s warnings, and the chemical labs found in Ghouta in a matrix of skulduggery.
    Light on evidence, but heavy on the plausible interconnectedness of these apparently unconnected events. Certainly much more worth reading than most equally speculative accounts.

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article200232.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    your link was a good read, but it will instantly be dismissed as pro russian propaganda on places like reddit.

    kinda sad that is the state of reality we live in.
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  114. @Erebus
    Thierry Meyssan's article places the Skripals, Tillerson's firing, Gerasimov's warnings, and the chemical labs found in Ghouta in a matrix of skulduggery.
    Light on evidence, but heavy on the plausible interconnectedness of these apparently unconnected events. Certainly much more worth reading than most equally speculative accounts.

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article200232.html

    your link was a good read, but it will instantly be dismissed as pro russian propaganda on places like reddit.

    kinda sad that is the state of reality we live in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Randal
    If only the brainless jingoists were so quick to recognise the real propaganda they are bathed in every day from their own supposed side.
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  115. Erebus says:

    … it will instantly be dismissed as pro russian propaganda…

    Of course, but UR ain’t Reddit and so may be of interest to the readers here. There’s a lot of moving parts in play right now, and Meyssan pulls many of them into a coherent narrative that strikes one as plausible. Plausible narratives are rather thin on the ground nowadays.

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  116. @annamaria
    "What did he butcher?"
    You are right, Sarkozy the Butcher was in a company of other Butchers (war criminals) -- Obama, Cameron, and Harper.
    https://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/09/15/cameron-and-sarkozy-to-carry-on-bombing-libya/ "Cameron and Sarkozy to carry on bombing Libya"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya "On 19 March 2011, a multi-state NATO-led coalition began a military intervention in Libya, ostensibly to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. ... The resolution was taken in response to events during the Libyan Civil War, and military operations began, with American and British naval forces firing over 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles, the French Air Force, British Royal Air Force, and Royal Canadian Air Force undertaking sorties across Libya and a naval blockade by Coalition forces. French jets launched air strikes against Libyan Army tanks and vehicles."

    I have so become accustomed to western bombing that I do not even see it as butchering.

    Read More
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  117. @CanSpeccy

    “Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol, Hitler.”
     
    There were plenty of Canadians who fought and suffered in the war against Hitler, so it is quite unfair to brand Canadians as Nazi-lovers.

    However, it is true that many Nazi collaborators from the Ukraine and elsewhere migrated to Canada after WWII. These include the grandfather of Canada's present Minister of External Affairs, Chrystia Freeland, who like her grandfather, is a Ukrainian nationalist.

    It has also been claimed that during WWII, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, father of Canada's present Prime Minister, rode around Montreal on a motorbike wearing a helmet decorated with a swastika. But then there seemed to be no tyrant that Pierre Elliot Trudeau did not admire. He had great respect for Mao Tse Tung, and was a close personal friend of the Cuban dictator, Castro. In that respect Justin Trudeau seems to follow in his father's footsteps, pandering to the Canada's Nazi backing Ukrainian nationalists and expressing his great admiration for the Cuban dictator.

    In any case, Trudeau is clearly not a committed democrat, having declared the abolition of the Canadian nation, and his preference for immigrants over the native born.

    Just after the Baltic states became EU member states I was in Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania.
    Quite close to the parliament building was written on a street sign ‘Americans, go home’.
    A foreigner who had lived long there, and spoke lithuanian, told me that when Bush visited Lithuania, 30.000 Lithuanian were selected to cheer him, waving USA flags.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Just after the Baltic states became EU member states I was in Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania. Quite close to the parliament building was written on a street sign ‘Americans, go home’.
     
    Yes, there is a powerful strain of nationalism among those small nations under constant threat of destruction. Understandably, therefore, they preferred Nazis to Commies of Americans. When I worked in Ottawa briefly about 50 years ago, I had a Latvian colleague and a Jewish Colleague. The former would sometimes salute the latter with a Heil Hitler salute.
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  118. Randal says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    your link was a good read, but it will instantly be dismissed as pro russian propaganda on places like reddit.

    kinda sad that is the state of reality we live in.

    If only the brainless jingoists were so quick to recognise the real propaganda they are bathed in every day from their own supposed side.

    Read More
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  119. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @jilles dykstra
    Just after the Baltic states became EU member states I was in Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania.
    Quite close to the parliament building was written on a street sign 'Americans, go home'.
    A foreigner who had lived long there, and spoke lithuanian, told me that when Bush visited Lithuania, 30.000 Lithuanian were selected to cheer him, waving USA flags.

    Just after the Baltic states became EU member states I was in Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania. Quite close to the parliament building was written on a street sign ‘Americans, go home’.

    Yes, there is a powerful strain of nationalism among those small nations under constant threat of destruction. Understandably, therefore, they preferred Nazis to Commies of Americans. When I worked in Ottawa briefly about 50 years ago, I had a Latvian colleague and a Jewish Colleague. The former would sometimes salute the latter with a Heil Hitler salute.

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  120. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Oh those evil, deceitful Russians!

    The Russians stole the election from Hillary.

    Trump and Trump supporers are….

    In bed with the Russians.

    (would that I was in bed with sexy Russian tennis players like Anna Kournikova!)

    The Russians are putting fluoride in our toothpaste!

    The Russians are trying to pump in Russian classical music to oppose American Hip Hop Rap Music.

    The Russians…..

    (editors note any American/Brit pushing these 24/7 Russian conspiracy theories in 1962 would be dismissed as a Jack Web Right wing paranoid nut case. But today it’s just standard libs and deep state intelligence hacks protecting their jobs)

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  121. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @CanSpeccy

    “Who is at the forefront of anti-Russian hysteria? Not surprisingly, Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, and Canada. They still cannot forgive Russia for beating their idol, Hitler.”
     
    There were plenty of Canadians who fought and suffered in the war against Hitler, so it is quite unfair to brand Canadians as Nazi-lovers.

    However, it is true that many Nazi collaborators from the Ukraine and elsewhere migrated to Canada after WWII. These include the grandfather of Canada's present Minister of External Affairs, Chrystia Freeland, who like her grandfather, is a Ukrainian nationalist.

    It has also been claimed that during WWII, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, father of Canada's present Prime Minister, rode around Montreal on a motorbike wearing a helmet decorated with a swastika. But then there seemed to be no tyrant that Pierre Elliot Trudeau did not admire. He had great respect for Mao Tse Tung, and was a close personal friend of the Cuban dictator, Castro. In that respect Justin Trudeau seems to follow in his father's footsteps, pandering to the Canada's Nazi backing Ukrainian nationalists and expressing his great admiration for the Cuban dictator.

    In any case, Trudeau is clearly not a committed democrat, having declared the abolition of the Canadian nation, and his preference for immigrants over the native born.

    And can you maybe think of any reasons the Ukrainians might have taken the German NS side against the Soviets?

    Any reasons at all?

    Maybe like because the Soviets starved ~ 1/3 of the Ukrainian Christian Peasant population in the Holodomor?

    Jees

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Google Lazar Kaganovitch. And then Naftali Frankel, for good measure. You are shooting yourself in your proverbial foot.
    , @Kolo
    Soviets?
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  122. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    And can you maybe think of any reasons the Ukrainians might have taken the German NS side against the Soviets?

    Any reasons at all?

    Yes, I can.

    But I am not obliged to respond to interrogation, especially not from an anonymous.

    Why not tell us what you think, then we’ll see what shots we may have at it. Certainly, if you think the only conflict in the Ukraine during the war was between Christians and Russians, you don’t know much.

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    • Replies: @Kolo
    Correction
    Xtians and jews

    Oh but its the bad Nazis of course
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  123. annamaria says:
    @Anonymous
    And can you maybe think of any reasons the Ukrainians might have taken the German NS side against the Soviets?

    Any reasons at all?

    Maybe like because the Soviets starved ~ 1/3 of the Ukrainian Christian Peasant population in the Holodomor?

    Jees

    Google Lazar Kaganovitch. And then Naftali Frankel, for good measure. You are shooting yourself in your proverbial foot.

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  124. annamaria says:

    Brennan’s accusations are tantamount to high treason: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/03/sue-him-sue-brennan.html#comments
    ” … later in the day on Wednesday, Mr. Brennan explained that his comments were speculation based on Mr. Trump’s words and deeds, as well as how Mr. Putin’s government has operated at home and abroad — but not on any inside knowledge.
    I do not know if the Russians have something on Donald Trump that they could use as blackmail,” he said in a written response to questions from The New York Times.
    “When asked the question, I have pointed out the perplexing submissiveness of Mr. Trump toward Mr. Putin — despite continued evidence of malign Russian activities,” Mr. Brennan added. “I do not know why he refuses to call out Russia; that is a question that can only be answered by Mr. Trump.”
    Obama is coming into focus: “How does he [Brennan] have “inside information” to support his implications? Is his “inside information” derived from classified information? If that is so then he should be held accountable as the Obama Administration held so many accountable under the Espionage Act.”– Right.

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  125. Kolo says:
    @DESERT FOX
    The Zionist drive for a Zionist controlled one world government is in overdrive and to see just how far down the road the U.S. is to a one world dictatorship, just read the 10 planks of the communist manifesto, we are almost there.

    The Zionist war plans always start with demonizing the target nation and this is accomplished via the Zionist dominated MSM and the Zionist controlled U.S. gov and with lies being the currency of the transaction , soon black is white, up is down, and wrong is right in the Zionist playbook and in this case Russia is the target.

    The lies being told about Russia by the Zionists knows no bounds and in fact is beyond the pale as lie after lie is spewed out on the Zionist controlled MSM. The Zionist dual citizen neocon warmongers have a goal of war with Russia and it looks like the goal is within reach with all the signs that it will truly be Armageddon.

    The proof that zionists control the U.S. gov is the fact that Israel and the deep state did 911 and got away with it, that is control in spades.

    Well said as always

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  126. Kolo says:
    @Anonymous
    How do we know the Russians didn't pay someone in the "British Police" to add another layer to the false flag-media paradigm by pulling the ultimate inside job?

    We can suspect this from the media's strategic propaganda divide, either the 'Russia did it' or the 'Russia didn't do it' camps. Let's face the facts, there is no James Bond style hit possible without the all important media playing up the James Bond style hit - otherwise you'd never know or care.

    Russia may come out ahead in the all important public popularity contest which is entirely up to the media. Each new incident evokes a great deal of sympathy for the underdog - 'Poor Russia, blamed by the usual morons everytime'.

    Agitprop requires a few bodies now and again for maximum realism. The credulous sheep are herded in the direction of what the masters want them to feel is important with a false divide thrown in to make it more sporting.

    Moron alert

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  127. Kolo says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia’s Freeland’s motion says Russia is showing a total disregard for the rules of the international order.
     
    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland is showing a total disregard for the rules of logic, evidence and the respect that politicians pretend to have for the intelligence of the electorate.

    Just another pathetic bought politician

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  128. Kolo says:
    @annamaria
    The ziocons in their hubris are not able to factor in the Russians' memory for Jewish Bolsheviks' stupendous (a)moral flexibility. Ziocons (the Lobby and Friends of Israel) still have an illusion that Russians do not understand their modus operandi. Fools. The fables of "eternal victimhood," "choseness," and "superior morality" work fine for Texan fundamentalists and congressional whores but not for Russians, who expect the worst form the tribe and are not surprised by Ziocons' acts of monumental stupidy, including the stupidity of Skripal affair. Theresa and Boris are just doormats for the "eternal victims."

    So true

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  129. Kolo says:
    @CanSpeccy

    And can you maybe think of any reasons the Ukrainians might have taken the German NS side against the Soviets?

    Any reasons at all?
     
    Yes, I can.

    But I am not obliged to respond to interrogation, especially not from an anonymous.

    Why not tell us what you think, then we'll see what shots we may have at it. Certainly, if you think the only conflict in the Ukraine during the war was between Christians and Russians, you don't know much.

    Correction
    Xtians and jews

    Oh but its the bad Nazis of course

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  130. Kolo says:
    @Anonymous
    And can you maybe think of any reasons the Ukrainians might have taken the German NS side against the Soviets?

    Any reasons at all?

    Maybe like because the Soviets starved ~ 1/3 of the Ukrainian Christian Peasant population in the Holodomor?

    Jees

    Soviets?

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  131. Dear Mr. Millar,

    I’m afraid you just have to put up with it,
    as an effective proof that what you’re saying IS correct,
    and they’re all the more frightened of you,
    for saying it.

    And I’m sorry to learn that your original ‘Federalist Papers’ devotion to the truth
    —surely an unusual character train in HMG’s diplomatic corps—
    caused you such a battering,
    that you needed some solace and quiet.

    I’m also sorry that meretricious hacks took advantage of this.

    Again I’m afraid it’s par for the course. When I finally realised
    —when the penny finally dropped–
    that I was being prosecuted by HMG in order to appease Mubarak and his venal sons
    (whom we later adandoned),
    and that a High Court judge had effectively been tasked to ensure my conviction,
    even though it required the law to be blatantly manipulated.
    I walked away, on similar grounds to yourself,
    and then drank hemlock,
    because I wasn’t prepared to be manipulated by shits.
    I survived, only to see this act also being traduced.

    As you conclude, we are much closer to an authoritarian regime than we realise,
    and it’s very much easier to achieve the sort of mass hysteria that’s useful,
    and our politicians behave much worse than we could ever imagine,
    unless we’d had first-hand experience of them in action.

    Oh dear, oh dear. Something is rotten in the state of Albion.

    Please keep on providing us with the information we need to understand

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Who is Mr. Millar?
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  132. RobinG says:
    @Jonathan Tokeley Parry
    Dear Mr. Millar,

    I'm afraid you just have to put up with it,
    as an effective proof that what you're saying IS correct,
    and they're all the more frightened of you,
    for saying it.

    And I'm sorry to learn that your original 'Federalist Papers' devotion to the truth
    ---surely an unusual character train in HMG's diplomatic corps---
    caused you such a battering,
    that you needed some solace and quiet.

    I'm also sorry that meretricious hacks took advantage of this.

    Again I'm afraid it's par for the course. When I finally realised
    ---when the penny finally dropped--
    that I was being prosecuted by HMG in order to appease Mubarak and his venal sons
    (whom we later adandoned),
    and that a High Court judge had effectively been tasked to ensure my conviction,
    even though it required the law to be blatantly manipulated.
    I walked away, on similar grounds to yourself,
    and then drank hemlock,
    because I wasn't prepared to be manipulated by shits.
    I survived, only to see this act also being traduced.

    As you conclude, we are much closer to an authoritarian regime than we realise,
    and it's very much easier to achieve the sort of mass hysteria that's useful,
    and our politicians behave much worse than we could ever imagine,
    unless we'd had first-hand experience of them in action.

    Oh dear, oh dear. Something is rotten in the state of Albion.

    Please keep on providing us with the information we need to understand

    Who is Mr. Millar?

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  133. @Kiza
    Who says that there is no proof that Putin did it?

    Boris Johnson personally found a ripped off shirt next to the bench of Scripals and “Vlad WOS HIER” spray painted on the nearest wall.

    Seriously, there was apparently an interesting letter from the Salisbury hospital to The Times:
    Sir, Further to your report (“Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment”, March 14),******may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning.******Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.
    Stephen Davies
    Consultant in emergency medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust

    If this letter is genuine then there has never been any nerve agent in Salisbury.

    Here’s the rub.
    A hospital clinical laboratory would produce a toxicology report that listed chemicals and their concentrations in a sample. No test, in a clinical laboratory, would identify Novochock, only compounds and elements. The results of the test would be used to treat the patient.

    So, it is possible for the letter to be both accurate, and inaccurate. The physician may not have known if there was a “nerve agent”, as no test would tell him that it was a “nerve agent”. That raises other questions:
    - If the alleged drug was “military grade”, how did Skripal survive long enough to make it to hospital?
    - Weapons such as “Novochok” almost always have a specific antidote. Where would a hospital physician get it?
    - How is it that no hospital staff have been “sources” to confirm or deny that the Skripals are actually in the hospital?

    This narrative has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    The police say they likely won't know what happened until the summer. Meantime, let's all piss on the Russians.

    What we're witnessing in the diplomat expulsions is the pathetic groveling compliance of the NATO members to global bully, the United States of Aggression, which kills people on foreign soil with drones every day of the week, as do the Brits.
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  134. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Curmudgeon
    Here's the rub.
    A hospital clinical laboratory would produce a toxicology report that listed chemicals and their concentrations in a sample. No test, in a clinical laboratory, would identify Novochock, only compounds and elements. The results of the test would be used to treat the patient.

    So, it is possible for the letter to be both accurate, and inaccurate. The physician may not have known if there was a "nerve agent", as no test would tell him that it was a "nerve agent". That raises other questions:
    - If the alleged drug was "military grade", how did Skripal survive long enough to make it to hospital?
    - Weapons such as "Novochok" almost always have a specific antidote. Where would a hospital physician get it?
    - How is it that no hospital staff have been "sources" to confirm or deny that the Skripals are actually in the hospital?

    This narrative has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

    The police say they likely won’t know what happened until the summer. Meantime, let’s all piss on the Russians.

    What we’re witnessing in the diplomat expulsions is the pathetic groveling compliance of the NATO members to global bully, the United States of Aggression, which kills people on foreign soil with drones every day of the week, as do the Brits.

    Read More
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  135. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    Good follow up to this at Craig Murray’s blog:

    The Poison in our Body Politic

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  136. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    And more today:

    Knobs and Knockers

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  137. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    With a further post promised later today.

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  138. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    The Salisbury, Russia-did-it, WMD horror attack on British soil looks increasingly like an incredibly dumbly executed piece of fake news. as a prelude to war, one may fear.

    NoviJoke: To Russia With Hate

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