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Bill Clinton with Hillary in Hebrew

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The mass migration of apparently hundreds of nominally GOP neocon apparatchiks to the Hillary Clinton camp has moved Democratic Party foreign policy farther to the right, not that the presidential nominee herself needed much persuading. The Democratic convention platform is a template of the hardline foreign policy positions espoused by Clinton and the convention itself concluded with a prolonged bout of Russian bashing that could have been orchestrated by Hillary protégé Victoria Nuland.

The inside the beltway crowd has realized that when in doubt it is always a safe bet to blame Vladimir Putin based on the assumption that Russia is and always will be an enemy of the United States. Wikileaks recently published some thousands of emails that painted the Democratic National Committee, then headed by Hillary loyalist Debbie Wasserman Schultz, in a very bad light. Needing a scapegoat, Russia was blamed for the original hack that obtained the information, even though there is no hard evidence that Moscow had anything to do with it.

Those in the media and around Hillary who were baying the loudest about how outraged they were over the hack curiously appear to have no knowledge of the existence of the National Security Agency, located at Fort Meade Maryland, which routinely breaks into the government computers of friends and foes alike worldwide. Apparently what is fair game for American codebreakers is no longer seen so positively when there is any suggestion that the tables might have been turned.

Republican nominee Donald Trump noted that if the Russians were in truth behind the hack he would like them to search for the 30,000 emails that Hillary Clinton reportedly deleted from her home server. The comment, which to my mind was sarcastically making a point about Clinton’s mendacity, brought down the wrath of the media, with the New York Times reporting that “foreign policy experts,” also sometimes known as “carefully selected ‘Trump haters,’” were shocked by The Donald. The paper quoted one William Inboden, allegedly a University of Texas professor who served on President George W. Bush’s National Security Council. Inboden complained that the comments were “an assault on the Constitution” and “tantamount to treason.” Now I have never heard of Inboden, which might be sheer ignorance on my part, but he really should refresh himself on what the Constitution actually says about treason, tantamount or otherwise. According to Article III of the Constitution of the United States one can only commit treason if there is a declared war going on and one is actively aiding an enemy, which as far as I know is not currently the case as applied to the U.S. relationship with Russia.

Another interesting aspect of the Russian scandal is the widespread assertion that Moscow is attempting to interfere in U.S. politics and is both clandestinely and openly supporting Donald Trump. This is presumably a bad thing, if true, because Putin would, according to the pundits, be able to steamroll “Manchurian Candidate” President Trump and subvert U.S. foreign policy in Russia’s favor. Alternatively, as the narrative continues, the stalwart Hillary would presumably defend American values and the right to intervene militarily anywhere in the world at any time against all comers including Putin and those rascals in China and North Korea. Professor Inboden might no doubt be able to provide a reference to the part of the Constitution that grants Washington that right as he and his former boss George W. Bush were also partial to that interpretation.

And the alleged Russian involvement leads inevitably to some thoughts about interference by other governments in our electoral system. Israel and its Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did so in a rather heavy handed fashion in 2012 on behalf of candidate Mitt Romney but I don’t recall even a squeak coming out of Hillary and her friends when that took place. That just might be due to the fact that Netanyahu owns Bill and Hillary, which leads inevitably to consideration of the other big winner now that the two conventions are concluded. The team that one sees doing the victory lap is the state of Israel, which dodged a bigtime bullet when it managed to exploit its bought and paid for friends to eliminate any criticism of its military occupation and settlements policies. Indeed, Israel emerged from the two party platforms as America’s best friend and number one ally, a position it has occupied since its Lobby took control of the Congress, White House and the mainstream media around thirty years ago.

Donald Trump, who has perversely promised to be an honest broker in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, has also described himself as the best friend in the White House that Tel Aviv is ever likely to have. In addition to Trump speaking for himself, Israel was mentioned fourteen times in GOP convention speeches, always being described as the greatest ally and friend to the U.S., never as the pain in the ass and drain on the treasury that it actually represents.

No other foreign country was mentioned as often as Israel apart from Iran, which was regularly cited as an enemy of both the U.S. and – you guessed it – Israel. Indeed, the constant thumping of Iran is a reflection of the overweening affection for Netanyahu and his right wing government. Regarding Iran, the GOP foreign policy platform states “We consider the Administration’s deal with Iran, to lift international sanctions and make hundreds of billions of dollars available to the Mullahs, a personal agreement between the President and his negotiat­ing partners and non-binding on the next president. Without a two-thirds endorsement by the Senate, it does not have treaty status. Because of it, the de­fiant and emboldened regime in Tehran continues to sponsor terrorism across the region, develop a nuclear weapon, test-fire ballistic missiles inscribed with ‘Death to Israel,’ and abuse the basic human rights of its citizens.”

The final written Republican platform for 2016 as relating to the Middle East, drawn up with the input of two Trump advisors Jason Greenblatt and David Friedman, rather supports the suggestion that Trump would be pro-Israel rather than the claim of impartiality. The plank entitled “Our Unequivocal Support of Israel and Jerusalem,” promises to move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem, praises Israel in five different sections, eulogizing it as a “beacon of democracy and humanity” brimming over with freedom of speech and religion while concluding that “support for Israel is an expression of Americanism.” It pledges “no daylight” between the two countries, denies that Israel is an “occupier,” and slams the peaceful Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS), which it describes as anti-Semitic and seeking to destroy Israel. It calls for legal action to “thwart” BDS. There is no mention of a Palestinian state or of any Palestinian rights to anything at all.

The Democratic plank on the Middle East gives lip service to a two state solution for Israel-Palestine but is mostly notable for what it chose to address. Two Bernie Sanders supporters on the platform drafting committee James Zogby and Cornel West wanted to remove any illegal under international law affirmation that Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel and also sought to eliminated any condemnation of BDS. They failed on both issues and then tried to have included mild language criticizing Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and its settlement building. They were outvoted by Hillary supporters on all the issues they considered important. Indeed, there is no language at all critical in any way of Israel, instead asserting that “a strong and secure Israel is vital to the United States because we share overarching strategic interests and the common values of democracy, equality, tolerance, and pluralism.” That none of that was or is true apparently bothered no one in the Hillary camp.

The Democratic platform document explicitly condemns any support for BDS. Hillary Clinton, who has promised to take the relationship with Israel to a whole new level, has reportedly agreed to an anti-BDS pledge to appease her principal financial supporter Haim Saban, an Israeli-American film producer. Clinton also directly and personally intervened through her surrogate on the committee Wendy Sherman to make sure that the party platform would remain pro-Israel.

But many Democrats on the floor of the convention hall have, to their credit, promoted a somewhat different perspective, displaying signs and stickers while calling for support of Palestinian rights. One demonstrator outside the convention center burned an Israeli flag, producing a sharp response from Hillary’s spokeswoman for Jewish outreach Sarah Bard, “Hillary Clinton has always stood against efforts to marginalize Israel and incitement, and she strongly condemns this kind of hatred. Burning the Israeli flag is a reckless act that undermines peace and our values.” Bill meanwhile was seen in the hall wearing a Hillary button written in Hebrew. It was a full court press pander and one has to wonder how Hillary would have felt about someone burning a Russian flag or seeing Bill sport a button in Cyrillic.

Team Hillary also ignored chants from the convention floor demanding “No More War” and there are separate reports suggesting that one of her first priorities as president will be to initiate a “full review” of the “murderous” al-Assad regime in Syria with the intention of taking care of him once and for all. “No More War” coming from the Democratic base somehow became “More War Please” for the elites that run the party.

The Democratic platform also beats down on Iran, declaring only tepid support for the nuclear deal while focusing more on draconian enforcement, asserting that they would “not hesitate to take military action if Iran violates the agreement.” It also cited Iran as “the leading state sponsor of terrorism” and claimed that Tehran “has its fingerprints on almost every conflict in the Middle East.” For what it’s worth, neither assertion about Iran’s regional role is true and Tehran reportedly has complied completely with the multilateral nuclear agreement. It is the U.S. government that is failing to live up to its commitments by refusing to allow Iranian access to financial markets while the Congress has even blocked an Iranian bid to buy Made-in-the-U.S.A. civilian jetliners.

So those of us who had hoped for at least a partial abandonment of the hitherto dominant foreign policy consensus have to be disappointed as they in the pro-war crowd in their various guises as liberal interventionists or global supremacy warriors continue to control much of the discourse from left to right. Russia continues to be a popular target to vent Administration frustration over its inept posturing overseas, though there is some hope that Donald Trump might actually reverse that tendency. Iran serves as a useful punchline whenever a politician on the make runs out of other things to vilify. And then there is always Israel, ever the victim, perpetually the greatest ally and friend. And invariably needing some extra cash, a warplane or two or a little political protection in venues like the United Nations.

If you read through the two party platforms on foreign policy, admittedly a brutal and thankless task, you will rarely find any explanation of actual American interests at play in terms of the involvement of the U.S. in what are essentially other people’s quarrels. That is as it should be as our political class has almost nothing to do with reality but instead is consumed with delusions linked solely to acquisition of power and money. That realization on the part of the public has driven both the Trump and Sanders movements and, even if they predictably flame out, there is always the hope that the dissidents will grow stronger with rejection and something might actually happen in 2020.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton 
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  1. When you stop to think about it, it is truly astonishing that the fate of this little make-believe country on the Mediterranean coast could come to occupy such a prominent place in the minds of America’s political elite.

    What is going on here? What is Israel, really? An international crime syndicate? A nuclear-armed flash mob? Yes it is these things, but to Western elites it is something more besides. It is the clearest vision yet glimpsed of their hearts’ desire. In its internationalism, its “freedom” from all constraints of place, from any rules not of its own making; in its boundless faith in the power of money, its contempt for labor, its insouciant declaration that all the world’s spoil rightly belongs to it; in its bellicosity, its hubris, its ruthless self-assurance rooted in a religious ideal that has long since banished God to the attic—in all these things, it is exactly what our elites aspire to be.

    The upper strata of European-American society is grafting itself heart and soul into the same Jewish-sprung cosmopolitanism that produced Bolshevism and crony capitalism. There is no need any longer to posit a secret cabal of Jewish schemers bent on world domination. Our elites, at heart, are already Jews.

    Perfidious Jews.

  2. The hosannahs to Israel never cease. In fact, they keep expanding.

    Cross-Party tribute to the Zionist State is a startling indicator of Jewish power. And it rises still. Can it even be challenged? Even Trump must pay tribute to this unrelenting force. No exceptions shall be tolerated.

    Zionists have captured both political parties and all mainstream media. And they have no intention of ever leaving the corridors of power. It’s theirs. All dissidents shall be dealt with unsparingly.

    As for the rest of us, we are spectators observing the greatest democracy and war-making machine that the world has ever known. All hail Israel! Democracy is great!

  3. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Unless US weans itself off Jewish globalist supremacism, it will be the same old song.

    Just follow the money, talent, and media.

    Boomer generation going senile in the worst way.

    What they made of America is downright disgusting.

  4. Realist says:

    As I have said before Trump is no panacea but a panacea could never get elected by an electorate dominated by idiots.

  5. You suggest that Trump was being sarcastic in his expressing hope the Russians would turn up Clinton’s deleted emails but clearly he would be delighted to see her embarrassed by them and would not be saying that it was dreadful that someone in Russia had hacked her emails and truly execrable taste for any American to publish or even read that provate correspondence. And why should he? As you point out America and its allies regularly spy on foreign leaders including friendly ones so why shouldn’t Americans know what the Russians know about Clinton?

  6. The longer version got wiped by UR software or something. But, in short, what dirt does Netanyahu have on the Clintons so as to “own” them? Evidence? And could they not resent it so much that they will kick him in the teeth when Hillary is elected.

  7. Aside from the important question of the US fulfilling its part of the deal with Iran what’s wrong with threatening the use of (massive) force if Iran tests or claims to have a functioning nuclear weapon? BTW PG I don’t think you have commented on the point that the US alone couldn’t have maintained the status quo against Iran, especially sanctions. Your view?

    • Replies: @Rehmat
    , @Reality Check
  8. Even as the US rapidly morphs into a country that more and more resembles Venezuela one thing never changes, the domination of American politics by israel’s friends and supporters. Although there is nothing individual citizens can do to break the israel firsters crowd’s domination of US foreign policy we can and should support the goals of the BDS movement and refuse to purchase products made in israel and goods and services provided by US and foreign companies supportive of Zionist apartheid.

    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
  9. LondonBob says:

    Trump thought sucking up to the Israelis and LGBLT would get the media to relent somewhat, no chance, only going to step up their attacks.

    What is interesting is that US Presidents are becoming increasingly subservient to Israel, LBJ servility is now the norm and has been since Clinton, despite Obama being portrayed as not subservient enough.

  10. alexander says:

    Is there anyone surprised by this ?

    Perpetual war,…. Eternal terror…..,Heinous debt,…. the final cleaving of the Golan(fully cauterized) unto Israel …….and the complete dissolution of Palestine…….are the gifts we bring to thee …

    Yes, Mr Giraldi, you may ask where did our nations ” 21 trillion” go ?

    Why it went right into the hands of our one-percent “war on terror” profiteers, and as our nations ” uber-citizens united” imbued with trillions in new found wealth…they knew exactly what to do…..

    Double down …..and go all in….

    Circling the wagons around the entire political process of both parties, so tightly, that justice, peace, and accountability (for the sake of the common man) may not , nor ever, pass.

    Do the remaining 320 million Americans even matter anymore ?

    As (I suppose) they say on the floor of the DNC………….They all got “berned” !

  11. Durruti says:

    Philip Giraldi,

    Nice writing.

    The people’s Brooklyn Dodgers are playing the imperialist Yankees. The score is 10 – 0 Yankees; it is 2 outs, 2 strikes, the bottom of the 9th, Sandy Koufax is batting and Whitey Ford is pitching.

    We must restore the Republic, perhaps with a little help from the Decembrists, (our Nation’s own Decembrists).

    Durruti

    • Replies: @dahoit
  12. Good column as usual. The yids rule.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  13. iffen says:

    So those of us who had hoped for at least

    Hope springs eternal.

  14. Rehmat says:

    David Duke, PhD, has announce his candidacy for the Senate to fight the ZioCons, aka the “NeoCons”.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/08/02/david-duke-announces-for-us-senate/

  15. Kiza says:

    I live in Australia. To gain a reference point, I have turned on the TV and visited a few printed media web sites. I never do this because MSM in Australia are just as pro-regime bad as in the US and the rest of the Anglo world. Here is a brief report.

    The most important piece of news is that the Reserve Bank of Australia has dropped the interest rates down to the lowest level in history. In other words, the Australian economy is in deep, deep, deep hole, although the MSM do not explain the drop. This official interest rate is the only reliable number because all other “measurements” are simply lies: growth, employment, inflation/deflation etc. The escaping Chinese money has been pumping up the Sydney real-estate market to unprecedented heights (just like in Canada, Washington state and California) and this is the only growth that this country will see for a while.

    After the drop in interest rates, the second most important “news” is absolutely relentless bashing of candidate Trump. It is a mono-diet of US-regime produced pieces (ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS) and a few locally produced anti-Trump pieces. Even the ticker tape at the bottom of TV screen keeps repeating the anti-Trump “news”. The printed media are exactly the same. In the main national newspaper today, I counted three Trump-bashing pieces, but the comments to these articles are even worse than the articles: they smell strongly of being written by the professionals. My non-negative comments about Trump was not accepted, of course. My friends say that MSM Trump bashing is regular and unavoidable.

    Today’s MSM watching experiment left me wondering: what are all these MSM cockroaches and the regime behind them so afraid of to be so persistently and proactively anti-Trump? The only similar boiling temperature propaganda was the anti-Putin propaganda during the US coup in Ukraine. It is clear that there is no theoretical possibility of a truthful Presidential election in the US. If they cannot brainwash enough, then they will start stealing. I believe that the US regime will push Hillary through to POTUS, but Trump will be the cockroach expozer – there will be far fewer naive people after this “election”.

  16. @Kiza

    Kiza, all that you describe in Australia is a reflection of what is happening in the US: low interest rates, MSM lies, Trump bashing, and Hillary love. Oh, and the censoring of comments that don’t fit the yid plan.

  17. I just checked the TV schedule for this evening in prime time. The first hour of my local PBS channel is about the Munich Olympics (poor poor innocent Israelis and the terrible terrorists), followed by a program on the 1936 Olympic games in Germany. Turns out that “new research” has revealed that the current, scandal-ridden Olympics is a result of–BINGO–the 1936 Olympics and Nazis!!! Here’s the description:

    New, Profile, Sports, History, Olympic Sports
    Archival footage and new research reveal how the Olympics of today – characterized by architectural grandiosity, budget overruns, corruption and collusion with authoritarian regimes – were shaped by collaboration between the IOC and Nazi Germany.

  18. LarryS says:

    What Will the Mashiach Do? http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
    Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
    The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

    Genesis 15:18

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  19. dahoit says:

    How is Trumps statement of being neutral and being Israels best friend perverse?Wouldn’t someone who made peace for them over the objection of their overweening pride of place be a hero?
    The issue has to be addressed,and if anyone thinks that evil woman has any intention of making her handlers do what they won’t wish to do,they are on zoloft,or some other psycho big pharma crap.

  20. dahoit says:
    @Durruti

    Oh,yeah,the stinking Dodgers,who left millions of fans in the lurch for the big dough.
    They belong in the land of fruits and nuts.

    • Replies: @Durruti
  21. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:

    Phil

    I completely agree with you. Trump is absolutely awfull on Iran. Trump is an enthusiast for war. If Trump bombs Iran….it would mean nuclear war with Conservative Orthodox Christian Russia.

    Without doubt…Trump is AIPAC KOSHER. During the POTUS debates, Trump will demand that Russia stop giving Iran the s-300…s-400 missile systems, for without a doubt, Hillary Clinton will be baiting Trump about the s-300s…s-400s being retrofitted nuke capable.

    • Replies: @Rehmat
  22. Marcus says:

    At least Trump only called Israel “our greatest ally” in the region

  23. bunga says:

    How Paul Manafort Wielded Power in Ukraine Before Advising Donald Trump
    New York Times‎ –

    NYT has never written of Dennis Ross, Indyk, and of whole PNAC gang who worked for Israeli PM and later came to occupy Bush cabinet . Or am I missing something ?

  24. Trump backs the Jews.

    Back in 2015, Trump said of Israel attacks Iran first “we will protect them 100 percent”.

    The Jews will force us to fight Iran for them with their shady, underhanded tactics.

    The next 8 years doesn’t look good for us, no matter who wins, the Jews win and we lose.

    Trump is for the Jews and Israel first, not us lowly prole goyim.

  25. Durruti says:
    @dahoit

    Dahoit,

    Friend,

    Please read my comment. I mean READ my comment. For dogs sake!

    I did write, “The people’s Brooklyn Dodgers.” You did see that???

    Yes, you are correct, that they (the capitalist) professional sports system betrayed 2 million Brooklyn citizens by abandonment – for the true home of Hollywood Obomber (its not Kenya).

    Lighten up! I have it on good authority, that Ron Unz permits laughter on his website.

    The Betrayal by the Dodger’s management is symbolic of the betrayal of America by our bought (by the Rothschilds & other Zionist Oligarchs) political leaders.

    The Betrayal by my favorite team of my favorite sport (except for Women’s Beach Vollyball), broke my heart – as current betrayals break humans’ bodies and spirit.

    You fail to comment on the:

    We must restore the Republic, perhaps with a little help from the Decembrists, (our Nation’s own Decembrists).”

    Now that’s the heavy part that begs attention.

    Durruti

  26. LondonBob says:
    @Kiza

    My source, an ex spook who is unhealthily close to the Israelis, said a few days ago that the attacks on Trump would increase, with the focus being attacks by Republicans on him. Seems right so far.

    • Agree: Kiza
  27. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Priss Factor

    Thanks, Priss … I always enjoy your perspective.

  28. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Look who’s talking. Didn’t Erdogon try to have Assad ousted?

    http://www.worldbulletin.net/headlines/175721/erdogan-west-supporting-terror-coups

  29. Rurik says:

    “I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.” -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

    as soon as he signed over that power to control our money over to these Jewish banksters, we’ve had nothing but world wars until Israel founded on the smoking ashes of Europe and Russia- with untold tens of millions slaughtered and the Palestinian people butchered in their villages.

    if it were a handful of Arabs that owned and controlled the Federal Reserve Bank, then there’d be no sunlight between the US government and the Muslim, Arab world

    if it were a handful of Mexicans that owned and controlled the Federal Reserve Bank, then we’d all watch our government bray its eternal fealty to Mexico

    as long as these international Jewish banksters can hit some keys on their computer keyboard, and create a few trillion dollars out of thin air to pass around, our politicians will eat the shit right out of their ***

    money = power

    and the Fed = unlimited money

    therefor ownership of the Fed = absolute power

    if the planet is ever to be free, then it will only come from an agent who doesn’t need their money in order to wield power. A nationalist like Putin, or a populist like Trump.

    We don’t know what Trump will do, be we all do know what the war sow hag will do; more war for Israel. Total war for Israel

    • Replies: @alexander
  30. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    http://www.worldbulletin.net/headlines/175697/fbi-technician-pleads-guilty-to-acting-as-china-agent

    Uh shucks, just let him go.

    He was just being a global citizen. Nationalism is so passe. We are all part of one humanity.

    If we welcome illegals, we should allow spies. Loyalty to one nation is atavistic.

    What they did to Pollard long ago was wrong.

  31. FLgeezer says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Thank you ID. You are truly Intelligent.

  32. TJM says:

    Living in America today and knowing the Zionist Jewish parasite that is everywhere, yet seen by no one, is quite challenging. In our elections its either Jews or Zionist that get elected, and yet no one dare mention that fact.

    They control information, the media, entertainment and even web sites and comment sections, using paid commentators to post lies and bully honest questions.

    I am not anti Jewish, I am anti Zionist Jewish, and not because of who they are, but what they do.

    But even with all their lies and manipulation, the truth is still getting out. More and more people are seeing through the lies, and are understanding the crisis America is in.

    When the tide turns it will turn fast, so much animosity and frustration has built up over the centuries. We just need a catalyst, Trump may be it.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  33. joef says:

    There is less and less of a difference between the two political parties for the working man. They both promote a neocon foreign policy, and they cooperate behind closed doors at the detriment of the rest of us. The Democrats caters to voter envy, and the republicans cater to voter greed. One side is ideologically leftist, and the other is corporatist. And even the opposition millennial response to them is equally dysfunctional: Socialism or Anarcho Capitalism, which both rely on unrealistic utopian outlooks.
    Lets face it: the one most important unifying goal, of the elites, is to just remain the elites; they are just disagreeing on the best method to implement that goal. And while they remain the elites, the rest of us will eventually live in a Soylent Green type world. If that is true (I’m not exactly sure on this) then what is the vested interest for the rest of us in maintaining such a society that would eventually end up this way? Thus the elites must pretend that they are looking out for our interest, with further political lies. Otherwise if we loose our interest in the maintenance of society, the elites will suffer too!
    At least the feudal lords provided land to farm and protection, but our current elites are just concerned in maintaining their positions, while they bribe/seduce us with bread & circuses. And unfortunately most of us are buying into it. They do not recognize how dysfunctional our political situation has become; and what will become of us when the resources for bread & circuses runs out?. Ever since the baby boom generation took over the reigns of management, from the WW2 generation, we have been on a steady decline.
    The narcissist rule the roost.

  34. mtn cur says:

    Funny how actions on Twitlers part were transubstantiated into treason on Trumps part, due to his sarcasm on what was already last years headlines.

  35. “… there is always the hope that the dissidents will grow stronger with rejection and something might actually happen in 2020.”

    No. If the Repubes lose this year, the floodgates will be opened to thoroughly dilute the current electorate with the peoples of the south, who will surely propel the Dems to a century of one party rule just like the PRI of Mexico.

  36. Rehmat says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatullah Khamenei said on Monday repeated his earlier comments that the US was never sincere in signing the so-called P5+1 and Iran nuclear agreement. The Zionist lawmakers are now threatening international banking institutions not to honor billions of dollars trade agreements between Iran and France, Italy, and other European countries.

    In June, Khamenei while addressing a ceremony to mark the 27th anniversary of the sad demise of the leader of the Islamic Revolution Imam Khomeini at his Mausoleum southern Tehran, said that trusting Washington is a big mistake as most hostilities against Iran comes from the “US and the evil Britain”.

    Khamenei said that Washington was never sincere about implementing the so-called P5+1 and Iran nuclear agreement (JCPOA). Therefore, Tehran has no intention of cooperating with the US and UK on regional issues.

    “This is an experience that even if we give up, the US will never stop its destructive role,” Ayatollah Khamenei said, noting that despite the fact that Iran has fulfilled its commitments based on the nuclear deal, the US broke its promises …..

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/06/05/khamenei-tehran-dont-trust-the-us-and-evil-uk/

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  37. Rehmat says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    When it comes to Iran, Syria and Hizbullah – both Hillary and Trump would act like Israeli ‘lapdogs’. Russia is more closer to Israel than Iran. If the USrael ever dared to attack Iran – Putin will most probably sit on the sideline as he did more than 3-1/2 year in Syrian destruction by Israeli poodles.

    Russia dragged its feet for over eight years on delivery of S-300 surface-to-air-defense system to Iran as result of Netanyahu and Lieberman (a friend of Putin) objections. The deal was signed in 2007 with Tehran paying more than 70% of its cost in front.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/08/24/russia-drags-its-feet-over-s-300-delivery-to-iran/

  38. @Rehmat

    How much will it matter to Iran if the US alone fails to honour the agreement?

  39. @ISmellBagels

    Given the proprietor’s strict injunction against sock-puppetry am I right to infer from your moniker that you only go online with signed, albeit pseudonymous, comment when there is something you want to say in criticism of Jews?

    • Replies: @ISmellBagels
  40. @Kiza

    I don’t know why that might interest UR readers but in case it does I suggest that those interested check what is reported for themselves.

    I have been on the subcontinent for some weeks but not confining myself in disdain to a brief sampling of Australia’s MSM.

    On a couple of selected matters I differ from Kiza.

    There was a broadside against it the day before the Reserve Bank cut the interest rate by Alan Kohler, a former broadsheet editor and perhaps Australia’s leading economic commentator. Immediately afterwards there was no lack of explanation in terms of getting inflation off the floor and countering the likely upwards effect of poor US GDP figures on the Australian dollar’s exchange rate with the US dollar. It has nothing to do with the economy being in a deep hole which is a considerable exaggeration despite the great Chinese commodity boom being unlikely to revive (or be replaced soon by India). Despite the 2007-2013 Labor governments having squandered the surplus they inherited on debt financed trivia Australia still has relatively great firepower in reserve, though a 1.75 per cent official bank rate is almost heading into the QE territory which Australia has avoided. The Turnbull government and some of the states seem to be about to spend up on infrastructure in the low interest rate, slowing growth, economy. Long oveedue of course but still ahead of the rabid Republican obstructionists in the US.

    As to all those “lies” there is something wrong with the head of someone who uses that word in reference to “growth, employment, inflation/deflation etc.”

    There are sometimes corrections in later months, there are imperfect methods of estimation or sampling and there are inherently problems in achieving precise accuracy (even if it mattered) in what Kiza seems to think are statistics claimed (by some unnamed bureaucrat??) as measurements as if with a tape measure. But the notion inplied by the word “lies” of a mens rea which is a motive for systematic deception is plain barmy. I don’t think recent Australian governments have even been up to the short term trick of changing definitions of unemployment. And you can’t get much mileage out of pushing the Bureau of Statistics to change its baskets of goods to fiddle inflation figures when there is virtually no inflation and the changes could easily rebound on you next quarter.

    There is something worrying about the state of mind disclosed. Ron Unz makes the most cogent objections to MSM but does so after reading the leading newspapers closely for hours. Kiza it seems, if he is not evolving his views and impressions of reality from the workings of his own brain, must be stewing unhealthily and almost exclusively on the www. Not a good way or place to be.

    (In fairness I recall being told by a famous judge who was born in the 1880s that, while at the Bar and still living at home with his retired lawyer father he went a year without reading newspapers – the Law Lists excepted perhaps – and that he was just as well informed about the important affairs of the day as any of his peers. No doubt he cross-examined his father and everyone else about the news).

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @NoseytheDuke
    , @iffen
  41. @LarryS

    Where does that darkmoon stuff come from? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

    • Replies: @LarryS
  42. @Intelligent Dasein

    While it is said that an urbane French diplomat described Israel as a “shitty little country” I wonder if you haver been to Israel, know any Israelis or read their news media and opinion media???? Or does such invective come from the imagination?

    • Replies: @bunga
    , @Art
  43. bunga says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    shitty little country”
    The description apples to the ideas that shape the policies and the orientation of the country . It is an apt description of the ruling class of Israel who uphold those polices and the orientation .

    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  44. LarryS says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Read Genesis 15:18 then Google: map Greater Israel, Your Slowness.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  45. @TJM

    I am not anti Jewish, I am anti Zionist Jewish, and not because of who they are, but what they do.

    hbdears like to say

    ”people are what they do”

    =)

  46. RJJCDA says:

    For Constitutionalists, members of the traditional demographic, and believers in Western Civilization, it has come to this: ITS TRUMP OR ITS GONE!

    Failing a Trump success, America will disintegrate as devolution then takes place. And it won’t be pretty.

  47. @bunga

    Presumably you are judging it only on policies which relate to security?

    I appreciate that you might want to deny the reality of the Israelis concerns – but I don’t suppose they are just pretending to the fears they profess, do you?

    Their scientific research and venture capital are pretty impressive are yhey not?

  48. @LarryS

    As I susppected. You should follow your own advice but that would result in your looking at many more and different passages apart from Genesis 15:18.

    More important: your choice of one of many maps of “Geatter Israel” is irrelevant without showing that it has a place in Israrli policy.

  49. Kiza says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    A few of your comments on Ron’s article were almost funny, which I commend (for example, you called yourself the President of the Hypochondriac Association of Australia or something similar), you still remain one of the principal polluters of this website with your prolific and extremely shelow commentary. I simply ignore (most of) your comments the same as I ignore ads on the commercial.

    About this one, I can only say, Australian MSM have a devout follower in you, or closer to home, if there were no sheep there would be no shearers.

    I really do not want to waste time on you, no more than before. Let it just be mentioned that a recent Australian labor growth figure was a laugh of the World (not that any US figure is any better), with extensive funny commentary about it online, where bull does not fly so well as in MSM.

    When on Australian economy, it is true that Australia is not a disaster zone of the US, Japan or UK kind (Australia is the best of the worst), but it is also true that Australia is a one-trick-pony and the pony’s name is Resources. If the manufacturing countries do not buy resources, Australia is in trouble and this is why it is heading for the negative interest rates like all other countries of the same block. Now on QE and negative interest rates, there is well known effect of giving a debt junky limitless supply of the drug he is dependent on.

    To make things even worse than they are, deputy sheriff Australia is confronting China in the SCS as if it were not China which saved Australia so far from the economic disaster zone by buying Australian resources. Ahhh, the wisdom of fighting war on your principal customer!!!

    It is sad if I have to explain the point of my comment, but it was that whilst the Australian economy is sinking, the Australians are told to be happy about lower interest rates on their home mortgages and told to worry about Trump. The current Prime Minister’s surname is so appropriate for the situation – Turn Bull.

    Finally, I would not mind reading an update from other countries on how their regimes are scaring domestics by The Trump. This is a good indicator of how much their country’s regime depends on the US regime.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  50. Art says:

    Bill Clinton insulted people with is over the top exaggerated body language and facial expression at the convention. Only a total brainstemer would be influenced.

    He also insulted people with “I met a girl” BS about Hillary – people know better – they knew it was all a big lie.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  51. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    While it is said that an urbane French diplomat described Israel as a “shitty little country” I wonder if you haver been to Israel, know any Israelis or read their news media and opinion media????

    Here is why Israel is a “shitty little country” — it is stealing Palestine by the day.

    The Stain of Palestine swirls all around Israel.

    47 Israeli violations against journalists in July

    GAZA – The Journalist Support Committee (JSC) said that Israel’s military and security forces committed 47 violations against journalists and media workers during July 2016.

    In a recent report, the JSC said that the Israeli army and police arrested eight Palestinian journalists from Jerusalem, Qalqilya and Ramallah, and released most of them later during the month.

    https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2016/08/02/47-israeli-violations-against-journalists-in-july/

  52. KenH says:

    I really wanna believe that Trump will chart a new course, but he’s surrounded by Jews and when Jews have influence that means America and Americans (especially white Americans) will NOT come first. The author of Trump’s convention speech, Stephen Miller, is Jewish so it’s no surprise that Israel was mentioned so many times. It’s also no surprise that the welfare of blacks and Latinos was mentioned but not one word about the trials and tribulations of white people in Hussein Obama’s America.

    Part of me fears Trump will become Dubya 2.0. GW Bush Jr. was non-interventionist and spoke of protecting America’s workers on the campaign trail and even attempted to protect America steel workers shortly after taking office. But it proved short lived and after 9/11 it was invade the world, invite the world which paved the way for Obama and the emergence of ISIS.

    If Trump manages to win in spite of all the forces arrayed against him including the possibility of election fraud, it will only take one major false flag terrorist attack to make him into a war president in service to Israel’s whims and foreign policy goals.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @utu
    , @schmenz
  53. Kiza says:
    @Art

    Do not you think that Bill’s behavior and words were appropriate for the intellectual level of the audience at the Convention? At the least that part of the audience that the theater lights were shining on – they cut the lights off on the Sanders supporters chanting “no-more-war”.

  54. MarkinLA says:
    @KenH

    Just hope Ginsberg has a heart attack the when the election is called for Trump, then it will all be worth it.

  55. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Right, both parties suck up to Jews.

    But Trump is obviously the better choice.

    US is really messed up crazy.

    Consider all the nuttiness this spring and summer.

    Democrat thugs mess up Trump rallies and physically attack Americans. A rally in Chicago was even shut down due to thuggery.
    Media see no problem.

    Muslim crazies carry out all sorts of attacks in the West.

    Many Muslims have been uprooted by Wars for Israel pushed by Neocons, Cucks, and Democrats like Obama/Hillary. That’s why there is a ‘refugee crisis’.

    Obama and Hillary push for open borders and amnesty for illegals. Millions of them. No rule of law.

    BLM is a crazy movement, but it has blessing of Democrats. Cops got gunned down in bunch of cities.

    [MORE]

    Obama’s SC appointees have no use for Constitution and make up stuff as they go along. Like ‘gay marriage’.

    Colleges are overrun with PC lunacy and nutty hoaxes.

    Journalism is in total LIE mode, what with stuff like UVA hysteria. And most Americans say they don’t trust media.

    Black crime is way up due to Ferguson effect.

    Blacks burned down Baltimore.

    Obama is gonna send dangerous city blacks to suburbs and small towns.

    Cold War was over long ago, and we can have peace, but Hillary wants new cold war at behest of globalist Jews who date-raped Russia in the 90s and instigated crazy coup in Ukraine.

    Hillary and Obama’s actions in Libya and Syria are war crimes. They destroyed a nation and then aided alqaeda terrorists in the other and created chaos that led to ISIS.

    US actions have led to total invasion of EU by ‘refugees’ and ‘migrants’.

    In all this, Hillary calls for more reckless globalism while Trump calls for security and nationalism.

    But Hillary still leads.

    But then,this is a nation where majority have been won over to ‘gay marriage’, which is now a religious cult that is now even entering into churches as a matter of ‘pride’.
    This is a nation where Americans think 25% of the population is homo.
    This is a nation where full grown adults get tattoos and their kids follow, to top it with piercing.

    It’s like PROGLOB — progo-glob0-ism — is the default position of the US due to yrs and yrs of the 2PC’s: Political Correctness and Pop Culture, both dominated by progs, Jews, homos, blacks, and skanks. (Sadly, even the success of Trump owes to the sheer celebrity-ization of culture. Look at Justin Trudeau and the new pope or poop. They are celebrity queens.)

    So, Trump’s star rises only in times of shock. When there is an attack on police or a terrorist attack. But as the story fades — with media spinning it toward more celeb trivia and globalist propaganda —, it’s like the reset button is pushed and we are back to default position of supporting the PROGLOB.

    So, the norm is pro-Hillary, and shock is pro-Trump. So, if norm prevails, Hillary wins, and if shock jolts and jolts, Trump may win.

    But what a crazy world. Hillary is pushing a mad agenda of globalism, but that is seen as the NORM.

    But if ‘gay marriage’ is real marriage and if illegals are ‘undocumented immigrants’(what this country is all about), I guess we live in a world of the New Normal.

    PS. Where Trump really did fail is in his needless overstatements. Such style was fun on TV show like the Apprentice. And it was even tolerated when Trump was attacking other Republicans. But when he’s up against Hillary, the darling of the GLOB, his style will be attacked and denounced for being ‘extreme’.
    And I must say he was too extreme in some areas, and needlessly so.

    He could have owned the terrorism and Muslim threat issue WITHOUT calling for total ban on Muslims.

    He could have dealt strongly with issue of illegal immigration without being so nasty about Mexicans. He could have worded things more carefully. Mexers have huge chip on their shoulders, a real inferiority complex vis-a-vis gringos or gabachos. Consider how Mexers acted when Greg Haugen made a joke about Julio Caesar Chavez.

    Coulter only need to sell books. To win elections, you have to either win over the other side or not antagonize them too much. Trump went too far in some areas.
    He also went too hard against Cruz, which is why Cruz couldn’t endorse Trump.

    Trump needs to find a way to be firm and strong without sounding over-the-top and hysterical, esp as the media will spin everything he says and does as ‘extreme’.

    • Replies: @mr. meener
    , @schmenz
  56. utu says:
    @KenH

    If Trump is allowed or made to win it will mean that the true powers have decided to do a major refurbishment of the world. A true war. Not just some bombing of Libya, Syria or even Iran. The worst of it is that Trump does not know it just like Bush Jr. did not know and was talking about isolationism during his campaign. If Hillary wins there will be more of the same Bush/Obama stuff – maximum 2 little wars per 4 years.

  57. @Kiza

    OK on the interest one might have in what other countries are saying about Trump but it is silly to suggest you have done so after your vain I-never-bother-with-the-MSN-but-held-my-nose-and-did-so-once-for-y’all riff. Very big of you Squire as your unimpressed worldwide readership might think.

    And you say nothing to justify your use of the Internet nutter’s favourite “lies” save to make the vague and grandiose assertion that a recent “labor growth figure was a laugh of the World [sic- your Cap]“. Ah, so I shall find it in the FT, WSJ, Correre della Sera, Naked News…??? And was it corrected/adjusted the following month like a lot of ABD statistics?

    As you don’t resort to MSM where do you learn that Australia is “confronting China in the South China Sea”? Not a source apparently that allows you to know that Australia has merely – so far – noted that the international panel of judges exercising a jurisdiction that China signed up for by treaty has supported the Philippines case that China cannot turn rocks within the Philippines 200 mile economic zone into Chinese Islands which give it rights over the surrounding sea and seabed. Of course you could be frightened by the Global Times rants (the Global Times is a bit like Times owner News Limited’s Sun in relation to The People’s Daily which doesn’t tend to engage in bullying bombast) which no self-respecting country would allow to intimidate – or provoke – them. And what has China’s once great coal and iron ore purchases got to do with that? You assert or imply a connection.

    Instead of pontificating grandly from your armchair like a prentice Colonel Blimp (though admittedly not a patriotic blowhard) why not argue, with precise reasons, why Australia should or should not be intimidated out of exercising right of lawful passage through international waters in the South China Sea where Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Bruneiamd Vietnam would all support it in doing so? Do you see any sign of less Chinese money flooding into Australia for coal, iron ore, real estate including primary production, education and tourism?

    As to debt you fail to make the important distinction (though both matter) between publuc and private sector debt. As anyone interested would find for themselves it is private sector debt which is historically high in Australia. Unprecedentedly low interest rates make it a no brainer if you are not an elderly individual and can get a long enough fixed rate loan that you should borrow to invest in a country with a high rate of good quality population growth and no real prospect of serious deflation. As I said, Australia has a lot of firepower left to fund infrastructure now that we have a PM who is not irrationally debt phobic as long as the Senate doesn’t continue to be destructive which it probably won’t be on the expenditure side though its help in curbing outrageous union inflated building costs is not guaramteed.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @Kiza
  58. @Kiza

    Australians thrice elected the Lying Rodent Howard who took the nation to war against nations and peoples who had done it no harm nor were ever likely to therefore it is only right and just that the people of Australia suffer loss of wealth and liberty. This is happening. Sun Tsu warned that war can be the death of a nation. The same holds true for the British and American people.

    Were these righteous nations Bush, Blair and Howard would be arrested and hanged in the manner Saddam Hussain was, yet they roam free as privileged pillars of society.

    Australians recently re-elected the same political party who lied their way into power at the previous election too. Stupid is as stupid does. Australians deserve good sports and recreation since that’s what they care most about, they certainly don’t deserve good government.

    I wish it were not so but how could it be any other way?

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  59. @Wizard of Oz

    The Labor government didn’t really squander the “surplus” at all. The Howard government created a structural deficit so the surplus that you mention was temporary and thus illusory and only obtained in the first place by selling Australia’s gold bullion at record low prices, around $350 or thereabouts and by selling off the telecommunications infrastructure thus preventing Australians from having the best of the one technology that ends the tyranny of distance and would have enabled Australia to better diversify its economy. Who offloads gold bullion at record low prices? The party Wiz favours, that’s who.

    I’m not a Labor voter (nor LNP) but Labor’s rapid disbursement of funds to stimulate the economy prevented the real estate crash that saw prices in parts of the US and UK fall by 40% and more hitting working people and families the hardest. Since regaining power, your party has doubled the deficit with nothing to show for it.

    I keep waiting for you to get something right, at least once.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @5371
  60. @Wizard of Oz

    Australia’s PM Turnbull is just an empty egotist who cannot even control his own party. Imagine a nation having as its leader a man who invests his own multiples of millions in offshore tax havens whilst increasing taxes on the working population. That’s your guy.

    The petty partisan politics saw the LNP refuse to back former PM Rudd’s bid for the UN Sec Gen even though Rudd is immensely popular with the Chinese and an experienced diplomat, he even speaks Chinese.

    The empty-headed clothing mannequin flinty Julie Bishop cancelled an $850 million deal to supply dairy products to Russia based on zero evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of MH17, still! The trade was promptly snapped up by close friends New Zealand.

    Probing the right of passage in the South China Sea makes no sense given that China is Australia’s number one trading partner, is allowed to even buy port facilities and farmland in Australia and is unlikely to deny access to Australian shipping. Why wouldn’t they want to protect their shipping lanes? Doesn’t the US do that?

    Seriously Wiz, have you considered getting a checkup from the neck up?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  61. RobinG says:
    @Kiza

    I’d love to see a copy-cat of this here in DC. Note the $$$bucks in her thong.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/02/asia/australia-clinton-mural-artist-burqa/

    Melbourne graffiti artist sprays burqa over provocative Hillary Clinton mural

    • Replies: @Kiza
  62. Kiza says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Writing about infrastructure, your “non-debt phobic PM” (a former director of Goldman Sucks Australia and the biggest crook amongst politicians I have ever seen) has already totally stuffed up the National Broadband Network, what else remains to be stuffed up now? Roads, railways, ports?

    As would be expected, you have no idea what the private or public debt is, you just babble on. Together with Canadians, the Australians are the second highest private debt junkies in the World. When not spending beyond their means, their “investment” is in the mentioned speculative real-estate bubble.

    I finish my final post in our OT “debate” about a f’ed up country worrying about Trump being elected with a link: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-02/d-day-australias-real-estate-bubble

  63. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The strength n the weakness of any point here is same, money. Supply n demand. That’s answer of the big puzzle.
    So if they think can buy USA with money, they completely pretty nice wrong.
    Bet u full stop

  64. alexander says:
    @Rurik

    Rurik,

    It seems like its a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.

    Obviously, passing a law requiring the Federal Government to balance the books each year would eliminate the need for our country to have a federal reserve.

    If our government cannot OVERSPEND what it takes in ( in taxes) then there would be no need to borrow money from anyone.

    For example: If the Federal government generates 3.8 trillion in revenues(taxes) and spends 3.8 trillion in running the country….the books are balanced…there is no debt created and no need to borrow money.

    This is the way the country should be run….period.

    But the point of the US having a lending facility such as the federal reserve,is to allow us for the possibility we might need to spend more in a given year than we take in.

    This kind of overspending is sometimes justified as in the event of a natural disaster or a foreign invasion.

    So having a federal reserve banking system is not all bad.

    But I think you have to understand that our federal reserve bank does not just “create money out of thin air”,…..it borrows that money from our future.

    Whatever dollars we “print” to pay for our overspending ,today, gets rolled into the national debt.

    Step back for a minute and imagine a scenario where the entire eastern seaboard is battered by a mega tsunami , there are thousands of lives lost, millions of homes and buildings destroyed and the amount of damage runs in the 100′s of billions of dollars.

    the federal government might need to step in and help out , right?

    But what if it can’t because its already spent every penny its taken in in taxes to pay its expenses and it cannot run a deficit to borrow the money ?

    Is this a good thing ?

    For arguments sake, lets say it isn’t.

    So that fiscal year our government takes in 3.8 trillion, but now has to spend an extra 200 billion in emergency assistance to help rebuild the eastern seaboard.

    Where do we find the money ? we borrow it, from our future tax rolls …..and the federal reserve facilitates that lending . We have just added 200 billion to our national debt.

    However, it still has to be paid for, Rurik, but rather than hit the citizens with an 8% tax increase the following year….we can disperse the brunt of the 200 billion expense over a ten or twenty year period and run an extra deficit in the process.

    The federal reserve is the tool we use to facilitate the process.

    This is not evil ,Rurik, its actually okay.

    But the Neocon way of doing business, defrauding the american taxpayer out of trillions in future revenues to lie us into wars of aggression today,is an absolute abomination.

    Its the most furious and sustained assault against our country and our way of life,we can imagine.

    They are a 21 trillion national debt train wreck.

    It should be stopped right away….but unfortunately, it looks like its just going to get a lot worse.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  65. @Priss Factor

    trump was so successful because he did what you are telling him not to do. his style got him here and if he changes it like you want he will lose a lot of votes

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  66. @NoseytheDuke

    I conxede an elision that you are well informed enough to notice. The tax cuts and other giveaways that Howard gave and Labor promised to keep were going to require some bracing restraint to maintain the surpluses after the prices of iron ore and coal crashed but the fact is that Rudd and Swan, with Turnbull’s support, followed Ken Henry’s stock standard Treasury advice to “go early, go hard, go households” and to prop up the banks’ borrowing power, when Lehman went under in September 2008. That was for $8 billion, peanuts, and it worked reasonably efficiently. Then the squandering really started (not saved surplus funds but borrowed money). $42 billion was promised and, ultimately, completely unnecessarily spent on school halls that economically produced only ongoing costs and on the disastrous and deadly pink batt program designed to appeal to climate change catastrophists (just as the school halls were, in the absence of defensible infrastructure plans, at least appealing to a couple of Labor constituencies). But not only did Labor have no shovel ready worthwhile plans they had no plan to stop the money wasting stimulus when it became apparent by mid 2009 that China was saving Australia’s bacon and there would be no recession.

    There was never a threat to Australian house prices pace Steve Keen because of several factors such as Australia’s major urban concentrations, high immigration and a housing shortage.

    Equally from memory I dont think the selling of gold bullion was either large scale or recent. It was in the late 90s I think when Gordon Brown really did hit the bottom of the market with UK gold sales but I wonder whether you are serious. Do you really think it better to pay the cost (even after some fees for lending to shortsellers) of holding it rather than earn interest on US Treasuries atonce healthy rates of interest? As for Telstra! I had occasion to address a lot of their middling to senior managers and engineers in the early 90s and decent not stupid people though they were it was clear that only fantasists would have maintained the state monopoly in the hope they would do something marvellous with it. Having closely followed Telstra and the NBN (with side glances to Optus, iinet, Primus et al( for over 20 years I am glad you eeren’t managing money for me – or I hope tsxayers’ money.

  67. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    There is something worrying about the state of mind disclosed.

    I thought the same thing when I read your comment on the genocide of Gypsies vis-a-vis Jews.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  68. @NoseytheDuke

    You sound like the ghost of Malcolm Fraser in your execration of Howard and his wars! But Howard was only a hanger on which has been Australia’s gesture to prudence, reality and low defence spending for 70 -75 years. I don’t agree with Howard’s justification of Bush but from an Australian point of view you have to take note of one remarkable fact. Despite the prominent part and major responsibilities accorded by the US command to Australians like General Jim Molan only one Australian serviceman was killed in Iraq (yes ONE) and he shot himself accidentally in his own quarters.

    How widely and consistently btw do you extend your rule that all the people of a country may justly be made to suffer if whatever counts as the necessary plurality in their constitutional setup votes in a government which hurts other people when it stuffs up. Which Russians deserve no mercy from the Chechens? Etc and many etcs.

  69. @NoseytheDuke

    I’ll take a little more notice of your requests for answers when I learn that, despite appearances you are scrupulous about getting your facts right.

    1. What is your evidence that Turnbull is using tax havens to avoid tax? My recollection is that he prudently handed management of hos portfolio, on the income of which he pays tax to offshore managers to minomise appearances of conflict of interest, and the reality. Of course many fund managers operate out of low tax polities but that doesn’t automatically affect their clients’ tax liabilities. You expoose yourself as knowing about as much of investing and managing money as the average Green politics teacher.

    2. As for Rudd being popular in China!!! Have you had a complete memory blackout about all the Wikileaks disclosures. They like him about as much as his Labor colleagues who only intermittently stopped loathig him when he won them votes. And do you think Malcolm Turnbull should have nominated a candidate who couldn’t possibly win when his own party collesgues vigorous denigrations of him were widely circulated or just found by casual Googling. Mind you, he was urbane and pleasant in my one meeting with him but that, as Ĺabor MPs knew wasn’t the essential Kevin.

  70. 5371 says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    [selling Australia’s gold bullion at record low prices, around $350 or thereabouts]

    I thought only Gordon “Sell Low, Buy High” Brown did things like that.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  71. @Kiza

    I think projection is the fancy term for the pot caling the kettle black. In your case aren’t you afraid that some of the sane commenters on UR might notice your self-exposed condition?

    (You are obviously depressed. It drips from every weary phrase. And I should feel generously sorry as I have had a successful business trip to the subcontinent and sm now enjoying a tropical holiday with lots of gorgeous people around, and great seafood).

    8For example I point out that it is important to notice that Australia’s high private debt is where the excesses are to be found (I paraphrase) and not the public debt. And that leads you to burble in the most general windy way that it supports your view that I know nothing about debt! No more than that. You really must get yourself out of bed and have a shower.

  72. @iffen

    Remind me where. I take it that you are referring to some moral premises that you infer from what I said. I wouldn”t like to think I used loose language so please help me find it.

    • Replies: @iffen
  73. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    If someone quibbled with “what about the gypsies” I would answer first that the numbers were much less. Second that they were not, like the Jews, the creators of much of the best of German culture and the bearers of it throughout Eastern Europe.

  74. schmenz says:
    @KenH

    ” It’s also no surprise that the welfare of blacks and Latinos was mentioned but not one word about the trials and tribulations of white people in Hussein Obama’s America.”

    His shedding of tears over the Poofs was also not very encouraging. Apparently Big Buggery and their media/judicial/corporate supporters will continue to come down hard on anyone who objects to sex perversion under a Trump Administration.

    He said in his speech “I am your protector”, or words to that effect. Apparently with his slobbering over the fairies and his pushing Peter Thiel in our faces he will not be the “protector” of those who simply want to be left alone from the predations of the Homo Class.

    I’ll be delighted if I am wrong.

    • Replies: @KenH
  75. schmenz says:
    @Priss Factor

    Very well observed. Trump needs to get some solid, serious and honest advisers. Fast.

  76. Kiza says:
    @RobinG

    Dear Robin, a good proof that many Australians are not as dumb as their regime and MSM take them for, plus a wonderful laugh. There will be more and more anti-regime artistic action, I am sure.

    I actually call what is going on now “desperate brainwashing” because among the intelligent it creates resistance instead of compliance.

  77. Kiza says:
    @5371

    Johny “The Rat” Howard is most famos for his lie that Boat People were throwing their children into the sea, which the Australian shameless MSM ran with as God given truth, spiced up with a few ambiguous photos of boat people in water. Most Australians believed this ruthless lie, which was the last straw which appears to have won him a re-election.

    I am against wars of choice, but I am also against illegal immigration that they cause. Definitely not a Labor Party (“opposition”) voter. But I did not believe this lie for a moment.

    Simply, both major parties in Australia are crooks competing for primacy.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  78. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website
    @mr. meener

    It worked among patriots and conservatives.

    Now, he has to win over Independents and some Democrats.

    Reagan won with Reagan-Democrats.

    Trump needs Trump Democrats.

    Carter lost because he was seen as weak in the cold war.

    Dukakis lost because he was seen as weak in the crime war.

    One thing about Hillary is she projects strength by her new cold war talk. Libs don’t seem to mind.

    • Replies: @mr. meener
  79. @Wizard of Oz

    Am I right to infer from your posting profile that you are a zionazi on a hasbara mission?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  80. @Priss Factor

    I say trump will win a lot of sanders people and he was always leading big with independents

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  81. @iffen

    Second that they [Gypsies] were not, like the Jews, the creators of much of the best of German culture and the bearers of it throughout Eastern Europe.

    iffen, the ghost of Sam Untermyer — In a radio address in August 1933 (the date is important), Untermyer said:

    When the tale is told, as it will be some day if the impotent League of Nations ever sufficiently awakens from its Rip Van Winkle slumbers to the realization of its power and duty to prosecute an investigation into the facts, the world will confront a picture so fearful in its barbarous cruelty that the hell of war and the alleged Belgian atrocities will pale into insignificance as compared to this devilishly, deliberately, cold-bloodedly planned and already partially executed campaign for the extermination of a proud, gentle, loyal, law-abiding people – a people who love and have shed their blood for their Fatherland, and to whom Germany owes in large part its prosperity and its great scientists, educators, lawyers, physicians, poets, musicians, diplomats and philosophers, who are the backbone of its past cultural life.

    Back to Dark Ages

    But why dwell longer upon this revolting picture of the ravages wrought by these ingrates and beasts of prey, animated by the loathsome motives of race hatred, bigotry and envy. For the Jews are the aristocrats of the world.

    Several problems with Untermyer’s assertions:

    I. From Jacob Raisin’s History of the Haskalah Movement in Russia we can learn that in the mid- to late-1800s, as Russian Jews became “enlightened” — attuned to the (and permitted to) pursue secular education, they flocked to German and Austrian universities to quench their pent-up thirst for scholarship.

    The next question becomes, who created those institutions of higher learning that Russian Jews took advantage of?

    Here’s wikipedia’s list of Germany’s universities:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Germany

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Heidelberg_University

    Heidelberg U, was founded 1386 with support of Pope Urban VI. It was modeled on the University of Paris, which itself was “Chartered in 1200 by King Philip II (Philippe-Auguste) of France and recognised in 1215 by Pope Innocent III.”

    U of Leipzig was founded consequent to a decree of Pope Alexander V. It was modeled on the university at Prague, which was founded by Holy Roman Emperor Charles IV and his friend, Pope Clement VI.

    The University of Rostock “was founded in 1419 by confirmation of Pope Martin V and thus is the oldest university in Northern Europe.”

    That’s the three oldest universities in Germany; it doesn’t take much effort to research the origins of Germany’s other universities where, Raisin tells us, Russian Jews flocked to take advantage of educational opportunities

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Wizard of Oz
  82. This is a well written article and I am going to print it out and deliver a copy of it to my Congressman today. It’s nice to know there is a small remnant who understand the Ziocon threat to the world with their never ending wars of aggression based on lie after lie after lie.

  83. iffen says:

    Thanks. I don’t know enough about the movement of Jewish students in this time frame to make many comments. Taking what you quote at face value, it makes sense to me that a literate people would go to the best educational institutions available if they were allowed to do so. I’m guessing that German and Austrian institutions were in a class beyond Russian ones.

    As to the other question raised by WOZ, I am not prepared to do any kind of scorecard of Jews vs. non-Jews as to cultural and scientific contributions for this time period.

    My point was that if genocide is morally wrong, how can you decide the genocide of one group is “more” wrong than another?

  84. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    See#84, I failed to get my reply attached to your tag.

  85. @ISmellBagels

    As you seem to be a newcomer to UR and obviously haven’t read much of what I have written i have to ask what precisely you mean or are referring to when you write of my “posting profile”.

  86. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website
    @mr. meener

    The media are portraying Trump as ‘erratic’, and Trump is taking the bait.

    In his contest with GOP featherweights, the erratic stuff made for good showbiz and circus.

    But when it comes to the big prize, people want someone who seems stable and authoritative.

    Trump needs to ignore the gnats and flies. He needs to focus on the big whale. Go after Hillary, Hillary, Hillary. Thar She Blows Up the World.

    He must not seem petty by fixating on gnats like Khan. Leave that up to his supporters. He should go for the big fish. Trump is in the big battle for the top prize. He carries a club. He shouldn’t go after mice. A big man with a big club going after mice looks silly. A big man with big club must go for big game, big trophy.
    With a net, you catch minnows. With a harpoon, you go for whales.
    Trump is in a whale game. He must hunt buffalo, not rabbits.

    Trump needs to show that it is Hillary and the Globalists who are the real Hitlers, the real Nazis. They are the instigators of wars and mayhem around the world. Hillary and Media call Trump and Putin ‘Hitler’. But who messed up Ukraine? Who messed up Iraq, Syria, and Libya? It wasn’t Putin. It wasn’t Trump. It was the neocons and Obama/Hillary. Most of great wars since end of Cold War had neocon or zio-lib fingerprints. And to understand Russia, Trump should say something about what the globalists did to that country in the 90s.

    Trump should also say Merkel is like Hitler. What was Hitler’s great crime? Hitler violated national borders. He imposed his vision of internationalism on other nations. In Hitler’s New World Order, his forces could trample into any nation and force its agenda on others. Merkel is acting the same way, though to destroy Germany. But destroying her own nation isn’t enough. She is trying to force other nations to be destroyed too. She is attacking Hungary and Poland for not welcoming invasion. It is like reverse-Hitlerism. Hitler told Poland, ‘you have no right to be resist German invasion’. Merkel says to Poles, ‘you have no right to be resist Muslim and African invasion.’

    Trump should avoid gnats like Khan. Let his supporters dig up dirt on him.
    He should focus on Hillary, Big Money, Big Money, the collusion of Wall Street and Washington, globalist favoring of open borders and aliens over national citizens, globalism’s favoritism of cities over suburbs and small towns.

    Trump should also use Lib words against Libs. After all, even NYT said Obama locked up more whistleblowers than all previous administrators combined. And even NYT admitted Obama’s administration has been the least transparent. (But media went along with this because both media and state are controlled by Jews. But stuff about Jews cannot be said because we live in Ziocracy.)

    I don’t think many people are voting FOR Hillary. Even her supporters must force themselves to feel excited about her. Many will vote AGAINST Trump because the media portray him as a crazy nut.

    If voters are made to see Trump as a madman, they will vote AGAINST him.

    It’s like even Alt Right guys will vote for Jeb Bush if he were running against Stalin.

    Since Hillary isn’t very likable or credible, the media will play on anti-Trumpiness. Obama had a certain celebrity-appeal, so the media could play up his image and persona. Such is missing in Hillary. And Sanders supporters really don’t like her.

    So, the media will make Trump out to be so ‘crazy’ that even Sanders voters will feel they must vote for Hillary as the lesser evil against the great nutty evil that is Trump.

  87. Rurik says:
    @alexander

    So having a federal reserve banking system is not all bad.

    But I think you have to understand that our federal reserve bank does not just “create money out of thin air”,…..it borrows that money from our future.

    it, Alexander, is a consortium of private bankers that loans that money to our government and then charges interest on the money that yes, they create out of thin air.

    if we need money for some catastrophe, we can simply have the Treasury print it

    we don’t need some Jewish bankers to loan it to us. This is a recipe for slavery, and indeed, eternal debt slavery because the money loaned out will never be enough to pay it back, plus interest

    we did it right for the first hundred years of the republic, when for that first hundred years the value of our money didn’t change

    then when we handed over control of our money to the world’s greediest men, suddenly we’re involved in world wars all over the place and our money today is worth about two pennies of what it was when the Fed was created.

    it’s a royal scam and it’s empowering the worst psychopaths on the planet who’re looting this country dry and using their power of the printing press to buy our politicians and foist endless war (for Israel)

    • Replies: @alexander
  88. @Priss Factor

    cant argue with a well written well thought out piece that you wrote

  89. alexander says:
    @Rurik

    “if we need money for a catastrophe we can simply have our treasury print it.”

    Which is exactly what we do, Rurik,

    but every dollar we print to use to pay for government “overspending” becomes debt we have to pay for in some future time, it just doesn’t come out of thin air…and it doesn’t vanish into thin air either ..it is borrowed from future tax rolls.

    This is why the heinous Neocon war debt is so catastrophic to our country …because its so humongous nobody knows where the money will come from to pay it down…….

    This is why Queen Hillary never discusses it.

    This is why Congress never discusses it.

    This is why our soaring national debt from heaving, unconscionable wars of choice are never mentioned in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal.

    because they know they have no clue how to pay for it.

    NO CLUE.

    Where are we going to get the trillions to pay for this obscene , pathetic , and largely fabricated “war on terror” ?

    Where is it going to come from?

    Is a candidate going to propose a TAX HIKE for 320 million Americans….because they defrauded us into war ?

    I DON’T THINK SO.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @NoseytheDuke
  90. When I look at the election this year, I see the possibility of it boiling down to a single issue: War or Peace. Hillary is the war party today and Trump, hopefully, is the peace candidate. Does the USA keep following the Ziocon war mongers toward war or do we follow Trump toward peace? Today we see the Republican leaders who support the war party attacking Trump and threatening to vote for Hillary and we see many Democrats and Independents who are sick and tired of war swinging to Trump. In the end, the demarcation line will be between war and peace. As for me, I am a man of peace and it is my prayer we’ll have peace on the earth and reject the Ziocons.

  91. @Intelligent Dasein

    Wow .. well said with the exception of calling them Jews. They called themselves Jews when Jesus Christ walked the earth too; but, He called the the sons of Satan, the tares of the parable of the Tares of the Field as Jesus Christ explained to His disciples starting at Matthew 13:36 … https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/13/36/s_942036 … Today we know them by their fruits, death and destruction and evil deeds. Call them Ziocons (conflation of Zionist and Neocon. Many of these individuals are responsible pushing the US & Britain to invade Iraq. They do the bidding of AIPAC and hence Israel), not Jews because real Jews don’t support Zionism.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  92. @iffen

    iffen, as I understand the facts, it was not Jews who were “genocided” but Germans — and Russians.

    Can’t complete the critique of Untermeyer’s statement right now — vinegar-&-oil dressing impacted keyboard; touchpad crazy.

    later

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @helena
  93. Rurik says:
    @alexander

    Where are we going to get the trillions to pay for this obscene , pathetic , and largely fabricated “war on terror” ?

    where do you think the Federal Reserve gets it Alexander?

    they just f’n print it. Or, more precisely, they hit a few keys on their computer keyboard. What do you think Quantitative Easing is Alexander?

    it’s the Fed hitting some keys on their computer and **poof**, there another trillion or two!

    sure, some of the debt that we owe is legitimate treasury bonds bought by individuals and funds and foreign governments, and we’re on the hook for those. But the rest of it is just made up numbers that these guys from the big banks tell us they loaned us, and we need to pay them back, plus interest. But it’s our money. They didn’t loan us anything but our own money, that now they want to charge us all interest on.

    It’s a pure scam. And all we need to do it tell them to fuck off, and we don’t owe them anything. In fact, if they go quietly, we might not prosecute them and toss their criminal arses in prison. That’s the deal of it. They’re crooks, and scammers, and they’ve been allowed to run this scam because our entire congress are rotten and corrupt. Except Ron Paul and maybe a few others.

    The history of the Fed is a little more complicated, but it’s all there.

    all we need to do is close it down, and pay off the bond holders, and we’d be free of these super criminals who have their greedy hands in our Treasury and in our wallets

    they tell us we can’t just print the money because that’d cause inflation, but that’s exactly what they’ve been causing ever since they created the scam.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  94. alexander says:

    I see what you are saying, but you still don’t quite understand my point.

    The money we printed to pay for the OVERSPENDING our government is guilty of….is rolled into the NATIONAL DEBT..

    This is exactly why our debt has BALLOONED from 5.7 trillion in 2000 to 21 trillion today.

    This kind of fiscal carnage is absolutely unprecedented in American history .

    It has to be the greatest and most sustained Neocon TERRORIST ASSAULT on the solvency and credit worthiness of our Nation …….in history.

    But the debt for these stupid, stupid wars still has to be paid for, Rurik …..and nobody knows where the money is going to come from, to pay for it ?

    Are you going to pay for it?

    The fact that our federal government has the power to run a deficit has been hijacked and exploited by these goons to the tune of 15 TRILLION DOLLARS and they have been pocketing hundreds of billions in pure profit on these bogus wars at the expense of all of us and every future generation of Americans…….. for the next 200 years.

    It is an absolute fiasco, a train wreck, a total fiscal nightmare.

    And they know it too….oh boy….. do they know it.

  95. @Priss Factor

    Sound advice, you should be offering to DT and getting paid for it. Perhaps you, the Priss factory and DFS could form a consultancy.

  96. @alexander

    Sorry but Rurik is correct, the government prints bonds not dollars and then uses the bonds as security on loans which must be repaid to the (private) Fed with interest requiring more loans. It’s the fed that prints the dollars in a never ending debt cycle.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  97. @TellTheTruth-2

    Interesting that Iran has the largest population of Jews in the ME outside of Israel and they don’t support zionism.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  98. @SolontoCroesus

    I hope it was a great salad anyway and that you’re able to rejoin us soon ;0).

  99. @alexander

    More than likely the money will be used to buy up strategic assets and property on the cheap after a great financial crash and then what will remain is a modern version of feudalism.

    • Replies: @alexander
  100. @Kiza

    Now you want to pull on the cheap shoddy guise of the tabloid journo who invents nicknames that no one uses. Or is it ignorance or memory trouble (common in the depressed)? No excuse for misinforming foreigners with (appropriately) little knowledge of Oz whatever the cause.

    John Howard was never “The Rat” but a number of his colleagues, including George Brandis, used to refer to him as The Rodent” allegedly and plausibly because of his determined gnawing away at the Labor government when in Opposition. In 2004 it was alleged that Brandis referred to PM Howard as a or the Lying Rodent. He denied it in a stat dec and Howard cited that stat dec as closing the matter. (OK I’m as sceptical as anyone: I know GB and like lots of other barristers I am sure he is wittily or snarkily indiscreet with his mates).

    The children overboard “lie” didn’t start as a lie, and only became one for a time when Peter Reith, the responsible senior minister and effective hatchet man, delayed clearing up what really happened. Reith was right up to Labor standards of “ruthlessness”.

    It is of course beyond silly to say that John Howard, Australia’s longest serving PM, is/was most famous for this incident of the 2004 election campaign. What about the gun buyback, pushing the then Indonesian President to hold an independence referendum for East Timor and then sending troops to protect the new state, the poorly legislated WorkChoices which worked so well but cost him the 2007 election, going to war in solidarity with his new mate GWB and only losing one soldier killed (accidentally by his own hand as it happens)?

  101. @iffen

    You still haven’t told me where I can find my full context to see exactly what I was probably assuming and thinking (using one thumb on a smartphone is bad for speed as well as spelling) but I presume that I had affirmed something about it being the Holocaust of Jews being the greatest crime against German civilisation and culture. I may have had at the back of my mind a Spectator article of about 26 years ago which said “Hitler wasn’t a nationalist: he was a racist” because he destroyed the educated Jewish bearers of German/Western-modern culture throughout Eastern Europe. I suppose that only adds intellectual derangement to the primitive pre-Christian tribalism savagery of the Nazis…. But I have no doubt that Ashkenazi Jews were a resource for the betterment of our lot to be treasured by Westerners (especially after the creators of modernity stopped having large families) in a way that wasn’t applicable to gypsies or peasant Slav soldiers for that matter. I am astonished that you do not seem to have taken notice of the abundant proofs of significantly higher than German or English or Fench or Dutch average IQ amongst Ashkenazim (and probably many true ex-Iberian Sephardim) AND that this has been important for the furthering of what started in NW Europe, especially Britain south of Aberdeen, about 500 years ago. While I have enjoyed a Stefan Grapelli jazz violin concert enormously (as I did an Oscar Peterson jazz piano concert in Charleston) I couldn’t pretend that such phenomena made the contributions of gypsies of African-Americans to civilisation and culture even remotely comparable to that of Jews.

    There are of course fascinating by-ways to traverse (which I understand could give some who don’t share my particular mental data base and preconceptions a sense of moral blindness to the truly important – though they may in fact be taken as obvious givens). For example Paul Johnson’s** marvellous History of the Jews notes how disdainful established German Jews were about the highly visible Ost Juden flocking into the Hapsburg and Hohenstaufen domains. (And that reminds me of the disdain expressed for the long black coat of a distinguished Jewish barrister, educated in non-Jewish institutions before the post WW2 creation of them, who later became a superior court judge, by an equally distinguished scholar and lawyer whose poor mother was Jewish. I think the latter was expressing objection to the idea of the former becoming a member of the old Anglo gentleman’s club to which he himself had belonged for many years – and which, contrary to popular media and Jewish community myth actually had some real Jewish members – though I do remember going to the Anglican funeral of one of them!).

    One of the by-ways emerges from the Jews of Eastern Europe outbreeding (their welcome and) the availability of jobs and business opportunities which had presumably till about 1650 contributed to their being selected for whatever IQ measures. Many of the Jewish inmigrants to the US from about the 1870s to 1925 were illiterate though no doubt respectful of book learning in a way not true of gypsies or any but by and large Protestant Christians. Their children and grandchildren, even if they could only get into City College of NY, became distinguished scientists to the point where the 2 per cent of Americans who are Jews have won 25 per cent of the Nobel Prizes.

    And so on…. More to say below.

    **PJ, né Cassidy, is staunchly Catholic.

    • Replies: @iffen
  102. @Priss Factor

    “Trump needs to show that it is Hillary and the Globalists who are the real Hitlers, the real Nazis. They are the instigators of wars and mayhem around the world. Hillary and Media call Trump and Putin ‘Hitler.’ But who messed up Ukraine? Who messed up Iraq, Syria, and Libya? It wasn’t Putin. It wasn’t Trump. It was the neocons and Obama/Hillary. . . .”

    Perfectly true, of course.

    To be blunt about it, Trump’s been fucking up as of late. He’s allowed himself to be put on the defensive by the The Pantsuited One. He’s fighting the battle on her terms–a bad mistake. He should–he’s got to–get the focus back on her degenerate warmongering, her subservience to big interests, her lack of integrity–and never let up.

  103. @alexander

    I confess to not having thought through to my satisfaction the likely consequences of the recent unprecedented money creation by QE. But note that it is not by any means confined to the US or central banks which fantasy could suppose controlled by Jews (actually only the Fed gives some superficial support to that bogeyman). But I am very clear that it is entirely the politicians who are to blame because they have failed to embrace the valid commonsense aspects of Keynesianism. Imagine how much healthier America’s economic path since 2007 would have been if the low interest botrowings used for war in the ME had been used on American infrastructure of all kinds. You don’t have to believe in governments “picking winners” to suppose they could find productive ways to spend money borrowed at 1 per cent real interest for 30 years.

  104. @iffen

    “not prepared to” is fair enough given the moral point you are seeking to make but what if you did? Without adopting utilitarian modes of judgment (though I see no alternative in pluralistic societies if you want internal peace despite the logical difficulty inherent in “the greatest happiness of the greatest number”) can you not interest yourself in the relative contributions made and to be expected from people of various different ethnicities and/or belief systems?

  105. @SolontoCroesus

    Fascinating to be introduced to Sam Untermayer (1858-1940) of whom I had never heard – so much for the speculation by retards in these threads that I could even qualify to be hasbara!

    But you really are extraordinary narrow in you selection of premises. Amongst what seems to be some overblown choice of words by Untermayer in his should-be-famous August 1933 speech you pick on Jews being “aristocrats”. (I have some recollection that the Christian Disraeli may have used the same word). Presumably he would have justified it by reference to the survival with continuity and shared descent of people who gave the Western world a large part of its cultural foundation – which, to give point by contrast, couldn’t be said of Greeks as ethnic Greeks. But aristocrats *rule* so it is ridiculous to apply that to Jews as a generality since 70AD. However, whatever he meant metaphorically, it is hard to make much of his rousing rhetoric to a presumably largely Jewish audience whom he was effectually enjoining to behave like confident upper class people instead of the craven self seekers he mentioned and criticised.

    I am not sure what point of any importance you seek to make by pointing out that the old universities that helped the emancipated Jews come leaping into and beyond the Enlightenment were Christian or otherwise pre Enlightenment foundations. Is there a point?

    I am also at a loss to know why you draw attention to Untermayer’s 600,000. It was, after all, a pretty well known ballpark figure for the number of Jews in Germany.

    I hope that, if I had been a highminded English or WASP Yankee student listening to Untermayer in August 1933 after only 7 months of Nazi excess I would have avoided confusion by Communists and realised that action to halt the Nazis was vital. Would I start by lamenting that the hope of civilisation lay with a wordy elderly failed drunkard of extravagant habits and hopeless money management called Winston?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  106. KenH says:
    @schmenz

    Trump’s pro-poofter posturing is disappointing as his support for the continuation of affirmative action policies that favor every racial group and women at the expense of white males.

  107. @Kiza

    Thanks for the reference to the ZeroHedge piece which has counteracted my scepticism about ZH from earlier reading to the point of leading me to read the related February piece on the housing bubble. Even so there is a lot missing in relevant figures including population growth and potential housing demand. And nothing is said about possible government and market responses. Australia mightn’t house more bright ideas than the US but it wouldn’t be politically hamstrung into neglecting mortgagees in favour only of bank liquidity.

    And suppose an important segment of the housing market like Melbourne and Sydney high rise apartments tanked with a few distress sales at 75 per cent of last year’s purchase price. I would agree that the potential effect on bank profits and dividends in the Australian context would be the big concern and potentially mean that the self funded retired would be spending less – but especially on foreign holidays. But one has to factor in the very different consequences for the Australian currency in such circumstances compared with the $US. If the $AUS plunged from 76 cents to 60 cents then Singapore and Hong Kong money – if not newly restricted investment from China – would be bound to go for bargains in the real estate market regardless of whether governments decided to pick up cheap student accommodation.
    Add a 20 per cent price decline to the currency advantage and a $500,000 apartment is picked up for $315,000 effectually. And the banks aren’t too fussed because a 20 per cent cut in the value of their security in the currency in which they deal is msnageable. The cost of imports ensures there is the level of inflation (as CPI change anyway) that the Reserve Bank likes so interest rates fon’t have to be cut further.

    Now back to your wild accusations against Turnbull. Evidence please if you are calling him a crook at all, let alone a superlative one in your memory and perception. The worst I have heard is from a lawyer friend and early Internet buccaneer who sold his website and email business to MT’s and Trevor Kennedy’s Ozemail when, not then having met Malcolm Turnbull, I asked what he was like to do business with. The sardonic joking reply was “well I counted my fingers after shaking hands”. Evidence? No.

    As for stuffing up the NBN. What’s your case?

    Don’t you remember that Rudd promised a <$5 billion scheme at the 2007 election and then, being accused of failure and not knowing what he was doing, had his Minister of Communications Stephen Conroy join him on the flight he was making to Brisbane and, in less than hour, they came out with an arbitrarily and grossly erroneous estimated cost of $43 (or 42) billion for a nationwide Fibre-to-the-Premises rollout by a new government body which sent every tech head who'd never even considered budgeting or the cost-benefit (let alone the time value of money) into orgasmic celebration and endless breathless blogging. Despite rollouts in some country electorates promised as bribes for votes to their independent members the NBN was so far behind schedule and over cost by the time Labor lost office that it might as well never have begun. Please note if you live in a compact country with compact cities that comparisons sometimes made between South Korea's gee whiz fibre network and what is appropriate for efficient and economically justified speeding up of the internet in Australia are ludicrously irrelevant to reality. Anyone who wants much faster than copper wire ADSL2+ speeds in Australia can get them with only a little ingenuity.

  108. alexander says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Lets be crystal clear on the Nosey,

    If someone informs me a foreign country is an absolute imminent threat to our nation, that said country has deposited ANTHRAX spores in our capitol and in our news rooms, then we proceed to war against it at a cost of several TRILLION DOLLARS……

    And then we find out, after the fact, it was all LIES…..

    This is not OKAY.

    Not okay ..AT ALL !

    I want my MONEY BACK, Nosey,

    EVERY….. DAMN …….PENNY !.

    Don’t you ?

    And I will vote for the guy who will go out and get it for me !

    Put em all in jail, seize all their assets, clean house and claw it back.

    be swift and merciless….and you got my VOTE !

    Send in the f#cking marines,….but GET IT DONE !

  109. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    •Wizard of Oz
    July 29, 2016 at 6:08 pm GMT • 100 Words
    @Anonymous

    If you consider that Germany shared the leading edge of our Western civilisation and yet succumbed to the Nazis’ mad wickedness is it not easy to see the near destruction of European Jewry as the great crime of more than just the 20th century?

    If someone quibbled with “what about the gypsies” I would answer first that the numbers were much less. Second that they were not, like the Jews, the creators of much of the best of German culture and the bearers of it throughout Eastern Europe. I would emphasise that Hitler was putting pure racism ahead of German nationalism. The Holocaust was not only a grotesque reversion to the ways of primitive humanity but a ghastly offence against German culture.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  110. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    [But the rest of it is just made up numbers that these guys from the big banks tell us they loaned us]

    That statement is all one needs know to dismiss your habitual rants on the Fed [and much else].

    Spend a bit [or a great deal] of effort to learn accounting. Look up the definition of Excess Reserves held at the Fed, and then we can have a meaningful debate; all else is just plain a-Paul-ing.

    https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h3/current/

  111. Gabriel M says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You are a fantasist loon. Israel occupies a very high profile in United States politics because it funds huge advocacy organisations in a way that often amounts to simple bribery and because of evangelicals. European elites are overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian precisely because they cherish the internationalism you are raving about. The European left is stridently anti-Israel. Israel is a reasonably successful, mildly conservative and increasingly religious nation state in a shitty neighborhood; it’s about the worst candidate for icon of globalist atheism that you can imagine. Get a grip.

  112. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    alexander,
    Your position is approaching a sensible construct, something which you and I discussed some months ago [and I perhaps failed to impress on account of the combative turn the discussion took]. So here I shall start by making a number of simple points:

    (1) You are exactly correct regarding the wasteful nature of debt financed wars. The spending on these generally benefit defence contractors and arms manufacturers, with little or nothing trickling to the middle classes.

    (2) Debt financed spending is beneficial as ‘automatic stabilisers’ when an economy suffers an unforeseen headwind in the form of a natural disaster, war destruction etc.

    (3) Debt financed spending is also indicated in circumstances such as in our present condition, where interest rates are at historic lows and high return infrastructure investments are clearly available.

    (4) Rurik and NosytheDuke are, as usual, entirely wrong. Federal Reserve purchases do not necessarily lead to greater future deficits for the federal balance sheet, as has been the case in recent years for the reason of seignorage, where the interest sent to the central bank is returned to the Treasury. (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFSGDA188S Notice that the deficit reduced harmonically from about -9.8% at the depths of the recession to -2.5% in 2015 and it continues to drop or stabilise there.

    (5) The Fed does not ‘give’ money to the banks, which then stuff Jewish pockets [it goes 'poof' in Rurik's magic kingdom]. The banks hope ordinary small business borrowing and consumer borrowing results following QE, thereby resetting the economy. Now this has not happened at any appreciable level, since consumers and businesses have retracted on account of a lack of visibility regarding good, permanent jobs in the future. Thus all this credit [money] is SITTING as Excess Reserves held at the Fed, for the accounts of the commercial banks.

    (6) While the Federal Debt level had indeed risen from $6 tr to $21tr, during the same period private debt [both comsumer and small business] has fallen (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HDTGPDUSQ163N from about 100% of GDP to around 79.7%. This tells you that in many ways the economy is a ‘closed system’, where the contraction in the household balance sheet is simply offset by an expansion in our federal balance sheet debt. Debt levels in many other smaller portions of the economic jigsaw have also reduced as the Federal debt has risen.

    (7) All that matters, can be encapsulated in agreeing that we (a) spend the federal debt not for wars but for infrastructure (b) reduce the increasing inequality in wealth and income [a separate discussion required as to why this in needed not for efficiency but for levels]

    ** On a related matter I spotted in another thread yesterday, NosytheDuke and Wiz [and others] were engaged on the topic of Australia’s fiscal/monetary policies during the 1996-2016 period I believe, and the subject of sale of Gold was being debated. In that discussion NtD made the point that Gold was sold at the ‘low’ thereby resulting in an opportunity loss. But this is flawed thinking. For one, central banks are lenders of the last resort and not market-to-market like hedge funds. The Aussie CB/Treasury complex did the correct thing. U.S. bonds at that time had a duration weighted yield of about 6% , which from the current perspective is an incredible return [not that the Aussie CB was particularly basing its operation with an eye to this, but rather that it needed the gold sales to boost surplus and earn a coupon from the world's premier reserve bonds rather than incur storage costs]. Furthermore even if the gold bullion was not sold but held ,and then sold at the highs in 2012-13 [a ridiculous notion that would equate the CB operating as a hedge fund with perfect foresight, of which there are none!] the capital gains would have been comparable [not that CBs account for cap gains] to holding the same sums in the US 10-yr bond through 2016. Check the numbers NtD.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  113. helena says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    How is genocide measured – is it the intent, i.e. to remove a specific ethnic group – or is it the outcome, i.e. numbers or percentage deaths?

    I don’t know what your understanding is but if you subscribe to the theory that Jewish people were rounded up into camps ready for transfer to Israel but that many died of typhus whilst waiting, then wouldn’t the deaths by typhus still be eligible for genocide?

    Who is Untermeyer, why did he make that speech?

    Do you eat salad while typing?

    • LOL: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  114. Sam Shama says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Nonsense. Bonds and dollars are the same, the former with longer maturities and the latter instantaneously maturing. Private loans are made by banks for which interest is charged. The Fed returns interest charged on bonds to the treasury.

    • Replies: @helena
  115. @iffen

    OK not very Christian of me but I can’t help tossing into my set of Sentencing Guidelines the setting back of humanity on what used to be regarded favourably as the progressive post Enlightenment post Scientific and Industrial Revolutions course. I suppose that prejudice places me on the whole of the spectrum from regarding the Taliban’s destruction of the Biddhas as aggravating their wickedness to lamenting the loss of great science which may have flowed from Nazi killing of Jews in a way that simply couldn’t have been expected of gypsies (any more than tribal Iraqis). The wording may have been inflenced as previously noted by the point made about Hitler not being a nationalist but just a racist because, in killing Jews, he was not infrequently killing representatives of the highest German culture.

    • Replies: @iffen
  116. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    OK not very Christian of me

    It strikes me as being akin to how I think the Nazis thought.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Wizard of Oz
  117. Sam Shama says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Agree;

    [Would I start by lamenting that the hope of civilisation lay with a wordy elderly failed drunkard of extravagant habits and hopeless money management called Winston?]
    LOL

  118. @NoseytheDuke

    Whether or not you are correct in saying that Iran has the second largest Jewish populaton in the ME – and I accept that you probably are – are you not being very naive in saying that thosr Jews don’t support Zionism? Even if it was just a statement in a synagogue that of course Israel had the right to exist as any kind of sovereign, let alone Jewish, state would be dealt with by the police or Revolutionary Guard, or judiciary…. well, how, do you think?

    I have, by the way, heard a Bedouin mayor of an Israeli town tell a group of foreigners, including Jews, that he didn’t recognise Israel’s right to exist. This was in Israel.

  119. @iffen

    iffen, this is a serious question, not one of my not-infrequent elbow pokes –

    Where do you get your information?

    I looked over your comments, did a random sample– specifically, looked over the first page of entries (approx 200 comments per) in each of your July & December 2015, then May and Aug 2016, in all, about 750 comments (Aug = only 50). I noticed that you posted only ONE link to an information source — an education journal, iirc, and one other cut-and-paste of information — it was from wikipedia, about 1830.

    You commented here –
    “People can just make up shit. How would we know?”

    I have posted some pretty controversial information in support of my hypotheses and opinions, but I try to support most of the information with links to books, videos, etc.

    You’ve posted pretty dogmatic (orthodoxly so) views re Germany in WWII. Where do you get your information? Have you ever questioned it?

    After all, “People can just make up shit. How would we know?”

    • Replies: @iffen
  120. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Any one of us, at any particular point in time have for one reason or another, thought of destroying someone [an internet anonymous for that purpose is handy :) ] . I am sure Wiz would in real life, not make that value judgement re: a Jew over a gypsy. [sayeth I, a Jew who on one occasion, was relieved of his wallet, passport and protein bar, by a group of gyp-critters at Gare St. Lazare in the Paris Metro]

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  121. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    iffen, this is a serious question, not one of my not-infrequent elbow pokes –
    Where do you get your information?

    Serious answer.

    It is the culmination of my reading over the years. I currently have many books in my reading queue and I really should devote more time to the reading list rather than UR articles and comments, even though the selection of many of the titles are inspired by information seen here, or questions raised here, perhaps even by your some or your comments.

    I have posted some pretty controversial information in support of my hypotheses and opinions, but I try to support most of the information with links to books, videos, etc.

    I work full time and have many other time consuming interests. I do not have the time to cite facts that support my opinions. I think that it is quite clear that I mostly give opinion and I am not masquerading as some sort of teacher or history guru. As I told Helena, people with preconceived ideas have little trouble picking and choosing facts that support their ideas.

    After all, “People can just make up shit. How would we know?”

    I would be delighted if someone would point out something that I made up. I would love to be challenged on some mistaken belief or incorrect fact.

    You’ve posted pretty dogmatic (orthodoxly so) views re Germany in WWII. Where do you get your information? Have you ever questioned it?

    Conventional history books. No.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @helena
  122. @helena

    Do you eat salad while typing?

    Nah.
    Preparing our contribution to neighborhood block party for “National Light Up Night,” aka social-engineering-to-normalize-over-policing-of-the-American-body-politic celebration.

    I was looking online for something I could add to salad dressing that would reverse the effects of years of brainwashing (see SEtNOPotABP).

    The good news is there are great videos on repairing the damage wrought by spilt wine. It took more time to find the right screwdriver than to remove, clean and replace the trackpad. Works great. (btw, the Best Buy computer tool kit does not include the necessary triwing driver).

  123. @iffen

    Where do you get your information? Have you ever questioned it?

    Conventional history books. No.

    Does “conventional history books” include, for example, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by Wm. Shirer; The Transfer Agreement, by Edwin Black, and FDR and the Jews, by Richard Breitman & Allen Lichtman?

    • Replies: @iffen
  124. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I think that I read some excerpts and reviews of the Rise & Fall in the late 60’s, but did not read the book. Looking at the descriptions of the other two, they both look like topics that could be covered in a good extra length essay.

    Have you read the Trilogy by Evans? The presentation at Amazon appealed to me. I might consider it. I really have a lot of other history that I am concerned about, although I am intrigued by questions about the run-up to both World Wars.

  125. helena says:
    @Sam Shama

    I hope you weren’t laughing at typhus!

    How’ve you been? I’ve been on a whirlwind of party politics. People keep complaining about the chaos but I’ve learned more about how government works in the last month than I did in the rest of my life. I’ve even got a vote in the upcoming leadership election. What to do? Support Corbyn and send the country down the road to Cuba Remix or support Smith, trigger a second referendum and send the markets into spasms of Uncertainty they may never recover from.

    Regarding economics, Fed etc. I have no idea what you are on about but I am sure you’re right.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  126. helena says:
    @iffen

    “I would love to be challenged on some mistaken belief or incorrect fact. ”

    I do it all the time by it’s like water off a duck’s back. What for instance is a Jewspiracy? The spiracy is just the sum of the different streams of power. The Old Boy Network was a spiracy but now it’s been deconstructed.

    • Replies: @iffen
  127. Rurik says:
    @alexander

    The money we printed to pay for the OVERSPENDING our government is guilty of….is rolled into the NATIONAL DEBT..

    debt to whom Alexander?

    to whom is that money owed?

    it’s owed to us! It’s our money!

    Yes, we owe and have to pay back the bond holders, that’s true, but what we can do- what is always done- is you simply print money to pay back these debts. When this is overdone, like Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe, you have a catastrophe, and so that’s why they call it Quantitative **Easing**, because they’re just ‘easing’ the debt-based fiat currency into the global market. And sure, it’s causing inflation, and sure your groceries are more expensive, but most people don’t notice it. But they’re not using the money to pay off the debts the American people “owe”, they’re using the money to prop up corrupt regimes and foist wars and consolidate their power and enrich their cronies, as usual.

    But the rub is that we’re allowing these scumbag bankers to ease our money over to other central bankers in Europe and Asia and we’re not getting the benefits, but rather other banksters are getting the benefits, and we’re getting the wars and rust belts. It’s a fucking scam!

    Wall Street is getting the benefits, because the Fed is busy buying up their fraudulent debts, created with assorted ‘Credit Default Swaps’ and ‘Collateralized Debt Obligations’, and other assorted convoluted scams and frauds that are wayyy too complicated for even the banksters themselves to really understand.

    It takes super-criminals like Robert Rubin and Lawrence Summers to come up with this stuff. But at its core, it’s all a rotten swindle, that we only need to tell them is over. And put the cuffs on them all.

    I see Sam laughably posted a link to the official Federal Reserve site. What a joke!

    you know what they tell us? They tell us that sure, they’re tossing around many trillions of dollars all over the place, and collecting interest and controlling all the big banks, but this is the thing Alex, they’re doing it all for our own good! They’re just trying to make sure we all prosper and thrive! That’s why the Federal Reserve Banksters caused the Great Depression, and looted the entire economy, to help us all!!! That’s why the blew up the housing bubble, and then popped it, to help us all!!!

    and this is the kicker.. after it’s all said and done, at the end of each year, they look at all the trillions and billions and hundreds of billions in interest rates, and they decide what’s the tiniest fair amount that they deserve for protecting our money and protecting the economy, and then they selflessly return to the Treasury what they don’t need! Isn’t that amazing!

    So the main thing is that all this debt is our money, and the US dollar is our money. We can print it ourselves. We can hit our own keys on our own computer and send how ever many trillions of dollars to Saudi Arabia and China that we want to. They may say, ‘hey, we worked hard for that money, and you paid us off by hitting some keys on your computer, and just created trillion$ out of thin air!’ And we could say ‘yep, we sure did’. And that’s how it works. Only instead of China being the dupe, it’s the American people that have been playing the dupe.

    “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered…. I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”

    ~ Jefferson

    Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves.

    ~ Jackson

    in fact, the American revolutionary war was fought in main part because the Bank of England wanted to force the colonies to use its debt based currency, and the founders rightly understood that to mean perpetual slavery. And then again, with the war of 1812, Rothschild was again trying to foist his London based central bank on the nation. They never relent.

    the fist thing these fiends did when they overthrew Gadaffi was impose a central bank on that ravaged nation. They’re the epitome of evil, because they use their power for more power and to impose their will on everyone. Both world wars were horror-shows were of their doing. The Eternal War is their doing. And it will never, ever end unless we end the Fed. Or the rest of the world does it for us by stop using the US dollar as their reserve currency. Because the whole thing is a gigantic fraud, all based on illusion.

    look at Gecko talking about the value of his painting, ‘the illusion has become real’

    that’s the same thing with the dollar

    its a fiat currency. We can print all we want of it and hand it to anyone who we owe, and that’d be the end of it. Since it was removed from the gold standard it’s simply a piece of paper whose value is determined not by any market, but by what we say it is. And if there’s a problems, well then they just send in the Plunge Protection Team, and put pressure on OPEC or the ECB.

    It’s all a scam, and it’s all being run by a tiny handful of international central bankers who all answer to the house of Rothschild.

    did you know that at some point some journalist or someone called some of the Jewish “Russian” oligarchs that looted Russia under Yeltsin; Rothschild agents- and then those stupid oligarchs sued in court, the journalists won, because it came out that they were indeed Rothschld agents!

    The rot all points to one festering, stinking rat hole. And all we need to do is clean out that rat hole, and free mankind. And all the wars for Zionism and destabilizations in Syria and Ukraine and all this manufactured strife and monopolization of the corporate world and all the cultural degeneracy will end like **that**. Poof.

    well, maybe not like that. But give it a year or two, and you’d see what I’m talking about. ;)

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Carroll Price
  128. iffen says:
    @helena

    I do it all the time by it’s like water off a duck’s back.

    Well, quack, quack and right back atcha. :)

    I have written along the following lines to you more than once:

    “I don’t dispute the success of Ashkenazi Jews. I don’t dispute the disproportionate influence of the Jewish lobby/Lobby.”

    I guess I don’t do a good job of discriminating among the Holocaust deniers and Hitler fanboys and I end up lumping them altogether. Many of them write like Jews are some sort of extraterrestrial being that has created a Jew matrix and we all live in it.

    • Replies: @helena
  129. […] think of myself as a political liberal, but if you are opposed to needless wars and law-breaking in high places, I think of you as a kindred spirit, regardless of where you put […]

  130. helena says:
    @iffen

    Well, they’ve fenced off the area I grew up in!

  131. Sam Shama says:
    @helena

    Hello Helena,

    No, I wasn’t laughing at the typhus. I couldn’t help bursting out at your short and witty question regarding salad and typing [oil and vinegar, they never mix, like Nazis and Jews].

    How government works – sausage making or fine art – is a question of taste I suppose, either one of which I find passably interesting, although I hasten to add that the present leadership elections hold the potential to be more transformative than many in recent decades. I am instinctively wary of Labour. Smith I cannot suffer [didn't he say something to the effect that Labour had not taken the steps to smack Theresa "back on her heels" or something?].

    I looked at the outline of Corbyn’s economic plan: a million jobs and a £500bn investment programme covering infrastructure, industry and the construction of a million new homes, half of them council-owned. Now that is something I can wholeheartedly get behind.

    Has he said anything about labour movements related to immigration?

    Well, hope you have a bit of fun along the way to the votes. Meanwhile here we battle with the penny-dreadfuls splattering the front pages with enough material on Trump to make the editors of The Sun go green with envy!

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @RobinG
  132. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Ok champ; its debt that you owe to yourself in the future, so if the U.S. economy as a whole keeps growing faster what is the problem? Please be pithy.

    [When this is overdone, like Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe, you have a catastrophe, and so that’s why they call it Quantitative **Easing**, because they’re just ‘easing’ the debt-based fiat currency into the global market. And sure, it’s causing inflation, and sure your groceries are more expensive, but most people don’t notice it. ]

    LOL. Any evidence that we are like Weimar? Is our productive capacity destroyed such that it takes a barrow of cash to buy a roll of gum?

    Also, is there any limit to your cognitive dissonance? I have pointed this out previously, If you are unhappy with the measure of Core Inflation as provided by the BLS, no one in possession of their senses could dispute MIT’s Billion Price Project, which as the name suggest is an index of a billion prices and updated daily. Scroll down on the 1st link and look at the 2nd graph for annual inflation. Any suggestion of Weimar there?

    Billion Price Index Inflation:

    http://bpp.mit.edu/usa/

    Interesting related differences between online-offline prices

    http://bpp.mit.edu/blog-2/

    and finally what about energy prices? Here we show Rurik in wonderland:

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DCOILWTICO

    [But give it a year or two, and you’d see what I’m talking about. ;) ]

    Yes let’s do that shall we. How about a firmer date? In any case I shall mark my organiser for a reminder on Aug 4th 2018 as “Here cometh Rurik’s Doomsday!”

    • Replies: @helena
    , @Rurik
  133. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    they never mix, like Nazis and Jews].

    Interesting, SC just gave an implicit recommendation to me for The Transfer Agreement, by Edwin Black.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @SolontoCroesus
  134. Glenn says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    How many of YOUR America’s $4+BILLION in WELFARE given to Israel every year comes back to America in the form of BRIBES to “american” politicians? Traitors voting to give Israel MORE, so they can get bigger BRIBES. https://youtu.be/z6UNufFaino

  135. @Rurik

    For an earlier commenter who asked someone to explain the “Jewish conspiracy”, you just explained it as well as it’s ever been explained

  136. RobinG says:
    @iffen

    Are you sure those were all recommendations? Or was S2C citing orthodox texts? Or some of both?
    I’ve read “Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich” word for word, and Shirer leaves no inch for revisionist theories. If anyone disagrees, give chapter and verse, please, or say where you’re reading between the lines, and I’ll review.

    • Replies: @iffen
  137. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    Hi Sam,
    Not all the splatterings are dreadful:

    “He [Trump] said he would create an infrastructure fund that would be supported by government bonds that investors and citizens could purchase.

    “We’re going to go out with a fund,” he said. “We’ll get a fund, make a phenomenal deal with low interest rates and rebuild our infrastructure.”

    He added, “We’d do infrastructure bonds from the country, from the United States.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/03/us/politics/trump-clinton-infrastructure.html?_r=1

    Donald Trump Proposes to Double Hillary Clinton’s Spending on Infrastructure

    • Agree: Sam Shama
  138. @iffen

    and @ RobinG

    What the three books/authors mentioned have in common is their reliance on documentation that Allies acquired (ahem) from Germany in the closing days of the war. Shirer explains in the opening pages of Rise and Fall that the amount of enemy archives taken by the adversary (Allies) from the vanquished (Germany) is unprecedented in human history. Shirer’s version of the history of the Nazis, based on his perusal of some of those documents, sold many hundreds of thousands of copies and became the basis for an entire generation’s understanding of the war. It is relied upon to this day: Eric Larson wrote in the introductory material to “In the Garden of Beasts” that he relied on Shirer’s work to produce his own best-selling work of creative non-fiction (Larson concedes that he is a failed novelist who finally found success with creative non-fiction genre.)

    What is even more interesting is that a man named Robert Wolfe, raised in a Jewish (Yiddish-speaking) household in Vermont; enlisted in 1942; instrumental in obtaining a set of microfilm that was created, contrary to orders, by a man who worked as a translator in the Third Reich and was a dual-British-German national. Wolfe came across the gent in the last days of the war when the dual-national tried to get in touch with an old school chum from Britain, a chum who happened to be Winston Churchill’s son-in-law. The dual-national led an Allied team to the place where he had hidden film of files he was supposed to have destroyed.

    Wolfe went on to use that material and much additional material from documents Allies recovered from German hiding places, in his role as assistant to prosecutors at the Nuremberg trials.

    And then — Wolfe was put in charge of archiving and copying the tons of documents that the Allies obtained from Germany and had shipped to England and to Alexandria, Virginia. This would have been in the early to late 1950s, when Shirer was writing Rise and Fall.

    And then — In the early 1960s Wolfe was employed by the US government as archivist in charge of the German documents not stored at US National Archives. Wolfe held that post for over 30 years. In that capacity, Wolfe kept the documents under lock and key in heavily secured cells, admitting searchers at his discretion and assigning to himself the sole authority to select documents to be viewed by researchers.

    When Wolfe died at age 93, Edwin Black wrote an effusive tribute, thanking Wolfe for leading him to information about the zionist collaboration with Nazis that is known as the Transfer Agreement. As Black observed in his book, the details of that Jewish-Nazi collaboration were unknown until 1979. (What else remains unknown? Incidentally — 70-years on, Israel is keeping a tight lid on documents in its archives. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-archive-idUSKCN0XH1OZ )

    Richard Breitman also wrote, as a representative of an entire community of holocaust historians, in praise of Wolfe’s contributions to “knowledge of the holocaust” through the latter’s efforts at maintaining control over the German archive.


    Let me tell you a little story. Some years ago a water line in a second floor bathroom burst, resulting in damage to walls and ceilings, etc. An insurance adjuster arrived the day after the incident, together with a plumber that the insurance company hired. In my presence alongside the adjuster, the plumber removed the burst pipe from the fixture, asked me to identify it, put it in a bag sealed under the adjuster’s, the plumber’s, and my signature. I was asked to sign an affidavit about who had installed the pipe, etc. The pipe in its signed and sealed bag was sent to the insurance company’s lab. The purpose was to determine who was responsible for the $2000 in damages. The chain of custody was explicit and subscribed to a system of checks-and-balances; an audit trail.

    No such chain of custody exists with respect to the German documents that, unique in all of history, are in the custody of the United States, and that had been controlled by an individual who can scarcely be thought to be objective, and upon which documents the entire narrative of the holocaust has been based.

    Jewish people used those documents to condemn hundreds of German leaders and warriors to death; Jewish people used those documents to extract billions of dollars from Germany and from the United States.

    There is absolutely no assurance or system of assurances that highly significant documents of an exculpatory nature wrt to Germany; or of a nature that would have cast a negative light upon Jewish activities in Germany or elsewhere in the war, were not destroyed or removed from the files.

    A complete, true, and objective understanding of Allied and German — and Jewish — activities leading to- and in the war and post-war is impossible to be known because the chain of custody of the German archives is irreparably breached.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
  139. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Is it safe to assume that you will question the value of the soon to be published “lost” Himmler diaries?

    Thanks for placing the books in context. What about the Trilogy by Evans?

    I was correct about an essay vs. a book. Ed Black has an article in the Jewish Virtual Library that gives the essential details.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  140. @iffen

    What little I know about Himmler is that he was a puny, evil man who ran his own show outside the awareness of Hitler, and that he murdered a lot of Jewish people. Don’t know anything about his diary — who is publishing?

    I don’t understand what you are saying about Edwin Black, essay vs book. Black has developed a kind of franchise operation, a network of researchers who contribute to his numerous books on aspects of holocaustism.

    What about the Trilogy by Evans?

    I read a few Amazon reviews of the Trilogy; also read reviews of Evans’s “Lying About Hitler,” — his book about his work on Deborah Lipstadt’s defense team, which hired Evans to testify against David Irving:

    (From the Amazon review):

    As an expert witness for the defense in last year’s Irving-Lipstadt trial, Evans (history, Cambridge Univ.) was charged with determining whether David Irving was, as Deborah Lipstadt asserted, a Holocaust denier. Evans spent two years researching Irving’s work, tracing his sources, and then evaluating his publications and public speeches. Moving easily from analysis of Irving’s abuse of primary documents to a discussion of what constitutes legitimate historical methodology, Evans presents compelling proof that Irving is a Holocaust denier and why he should not be considered a legitimate member of the historical profession.

    Evans’s depiction of the trial and of Irving’s behavior in court is followed by an assessment of the implications of the judgment in Lipstadt’s favor.

    Evans’s point that some commentators seemed to forget that it was Irving who was attempting to silence Lipstadt, rather than academic historians and “Jewish interest groups” attempting to stifle free speech, is well worth remembering. Evans eloquently argues that what was really on trial was history itself. Fortunately, history won.

    Ironically, Evans’s carefully documented book has not yet been published in the U.K., as Irving’s threats to bring a libel suit have already caused one company to drop publication.

    An even grander irony is in Lipstadt’s subsequent behavior, when C Span prepared to host Lipstadt to discuss her book about the trial. C Span producer Connie Doebele invited Irving to appear to tell his side of the story. Lipstadt pulled the pillars down: she called upon an army of “Jewish interest groups” to besiege Doebele/C Span; she arranged for editorials in major newspapers decrying C Span’s plan. Lipstadt ultimately cancelled the appearance; Doebele was made to appear at the knee of C Span manager Richard Weinstein and make her mea culpas for the sin seeking to tell both sides of the story.

    The most obvious take-away is that hewing to the Jewish line on holocaust can make one a wealthy person — Evans was paid handsomely by Lipstadt’s team. OTOH offering information contrary to the Jewish doxology can ruin a person, even land them in jail — Irving has been fined, imprisoned, had his records taken by the British government, been the victim of arson and other attacks on his person and property, for the crime of presenting evidence about history with which Jewish people do not agree. Recall that it was Irving who was among the first to bring the enormous tragedy of the firebombing of Dresden to the attention of the American public.

    Evans declared that Irving, untrained as an historian, does not belong among historians, but Max Hastings is not trained as an historian yet the British monarchy made him a knight and honors him as Britain’s preeminent historian. Hastings strokes British and Jewish feathers the right way and is rewarded for so doing.

    I suppose what I’m tending toward is extreme skepticism wrt to the objectivity of any history of WWII and Germany that Evans may produce.

    btw, the late R H S Stolfi, who taught at Naval War College I believe, wrote an acclaimed book on Panzer warfare. In his later years Stolfi wrote “Hitler: Beyond Evil and Tyranny,” a critique of the the one-dimensional depictions of Hitler produced by Kershaw, Bullock and the like.

    The first bio of Hitler that I recall reading, many years ago, was titled “Psychopathic God.” This Stanza from W H Auden’s September 1939 formed the epigraph:

    Accurate scholarship can
    Unearth the whole offence
    From Luther until now
    That has driven a culture mad,
    Find what occurred at Linz,
    What huge imago made
    A psychopathic god:
    I and the public know
    What all schoolchildren learn,
    Those to whom evil is done
    Do evil in return.

    By its very nature the concept of holocaust denial undermines the possibility of Accurate Scholarship. It’s bunkum; no American should allow himself to be painted into that anti-intellectual corner.

    PS the more I learn the more it seems that such characters as Sam Untermyer and Vladimir Jabotinsky, Rabbi Wise and Henry Morgenthau, Jr.; the Netanyahus, father and son, fit the description of “psychopathic gods” evolved from “huge imago s.”

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  141. helena says:
    @Sam Shama

    “its debt that you owe to yourself in the future, so if the U.S. economy as a whole keeps growing faster what is the problem?”

    Back to my problem (!) – is the above why you think Corbyn’s policies are interesting? You don’t think that the UK would end up with massive unpayable debt and either go the way of Greece or Cuba? I don’t see any escape from the global financial network so i think countries basically have to elect governments that can work with the global system rather than trying to start something new – or is that hopelessly naive?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  142. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    Ok champ; its debt that you owe to yourself in the future, so if the U.S. economy as a whole keeps growing faster what is the problem? Please be pithy.

    ahh, you’ve just hit on the holy grail

    growth

    because the leaches latched firmly to the skin of the working man in this country, are greedily slurping out the shekels from his efforts- and are always growing, (like the ticks that they are), they always need more and more. Because the fake debt that we’re all paying interest on always keeps growing too. So that’s why we always have to import more immigrants, to keep the economy growing and the demand for housing and all the other scams they’re running.

    Tick juice is what we need. We just drop some tick juice on these ticks, tell the Fed we’ll print our own money thankyouverymuch, and then lock them all up in pound-ass prison for a few decades.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216

    LOL. Any evidence that we are like Weimar? Is our productive capacity destroyed such that it takes a barrow of cash to buy a roll of gum?

    you’re usually not such an imbecile Sam. If you’d have bothered to read what I wrote, you’d know why I’m saying that. ;)

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  143. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Don’t know anything about his diary — who is publishing?

    Newly discovered diaries of Heinrich Himmler, the head of the Nazi Gestapo and the SS, have highlighted the daily routine of one of the most powerful men in Nazi Germany.
    The diaries, which were discovered in the archives of the Russian Defense Ministry in Podolsk 2013, covers the years 1937, 1938, 1947, and 1948, according to DW. Entries in the 1,000-page document, indicating Himmler’s daily schedule, were reportedly typed by an adjutant daily.
    The German Historical Institute (DHI) is set to publish the lost Himmler diaries in 2017. However, German newspaper Bild has published excerpts of the document.
    Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/3378091/lost-himmler-diaries-sheds-light-on-daily-life-of-powerful-nazi-officer/#RJAi1Gdgg1xMtioR.99

    Recall that it was Irving who was among the first to bring the enormous tragedy of the firebombing of Dresden to the attention of the American public.

    I copied the following from Wiki which to my mind contradicts this statement.

    On 16 February, the Propaganda Ministry issued a press release that stated that Dresden had no war industries; it was a city of culture.[91]
    On 25 February, a new leaflet with photographs of two burned children was released under the title “Dresden—Massacre of Refugees,” stating that 200,000 had died. Frederick Taylor states that “there is good reason to believe that later in March copies of—or extracts from—[an official police report] were leaked to the neutral press by Goebbels’s Propaganda Ministry … doctored with an extra zero to make [the total dead from the raid] 202,040″.[12] On 4 March, Das Reich, a weekly newspaper founded by Goebbels, published a lengthy article emphasizing the suffering and destruction of a cultural icon,
    The unease was made worse by an Associated Press story that the Allies had resorted to terror bombing. At a press briefing held by the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force two days after the raids, British Air Commodore Colin McKay Grierson told journalists:
    First of all they (Dresden and similar towns) are the centres…

    I don’t understand what you are saying about Edwin Black, essay vs book.

    You asked if I had read his book, The Transfer Agreement, and I said no. I said that I thought a subject like that could be covered in a good essay. He, Ed Black, has such an essay at The Jewish Virtual Library.

    On the topic of books, and re: RobinG’s comment, were you wanting me to say that I had read one or more of those books so that you could say that I had read the “wrong” books? Gullible me assumed that forthrightness was a part of a “serious” discussion.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  144. iffen says:
    @RobinG

    Is revisionist the PC term for Holocaust denier? If so, I think that I will start using it. Is the term widely accepted in your community? I am working on reducing my ad hominem remarks and calling people by their preferred label will be part of it.

    • Replies: @helena
  145. Sam Shama says:
    @helena

    Hi Helena:

    There is little likelihood of Britain going the way of Cuba or Greece, were it to issue £500bn or even £1tr in infrastructure bonds to finance the projects proposed by Corbyn [quite another matter whether Labour can actually execute it well, refrain from pork-barrel waste or a surfeit of grift]. The British Pound is a reserve currency, backed by British assets, British productivity, British manufacturing and above all, human capital that the Island and it’s territories continue to enjoy.

    Don’t fret over the “global financial network”; it is there and it has contributed to the inequality of income that plagues much of the world; yet it has also made the global economic system far more resilient to headwinds. Global central banks can work in co-ordination to absorb shocks produced in any part of the system. Comparing U.K’s position to Greece, let alone Cuba, is the game of charlatans. It issues in it’s own currency which is also a constituent of the basket of premier reserves: U.S dollar, Euro, Pound, Yen, Renminbi and perhaps Swiss Franc. The only concern, a really really remote one, is if accelerating inflation takes over. I would put the probability of that at 0.01% :-) and even if it occurred, BoE can extinguish it rapidly. I reckon the £500bn will produce a 2.5-3%% growth in the U.K, if properly executed. With sustained [meaning 5yr +] fiscal investments, the jobs are going to be permanent and go a long way to reduce the numbers of the precariat (http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2013/04/04/jenny-diski/the-duchess-and-the-dustman-meet-the-elite-and-the-precariat/ ].

    Servicing the new debt is not a difficult task at all. I haven’t done the maths for the UK, only for the U.S. [$3tr], which turns out to be not just manageable, but in fact trivial. Look at RobinG’s link above in #139 for Trump’s plan.

    • Replies: @helena
  146. @iffen

    You are speaking from gut instinct – a fine traditional one in our civilisation it is true – as evidenced by your failing to explain what on the face of it is the direct opposite of the fact. I.e. the Nazis did not discriminate between Jews and gypsies and, if anything, treated the Jews worse because of their dangerous abilities.

    • Replies: @iffen
  147. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    When considering which group of people deserve to get genocided more than another, it is my opinion that whether one group exceeds another in cultural and educational accomplishments does not qualify as a valid criterion.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  148. @Sam Shama

    There is certainly a big difference between theorising and acting and all sorts of factors come into it.

    For example, if I was demented without hope of remission I would want to be knocked off in the way which would give maximum financial relief of not benefit to the family. But I don’t think I would like the younger members of my family to be the sort of person who could do it.

    If it was a matter of only being able to hide one person threatened with certain desth and the choice was between a learned old rabbi with many children and a brilliant young gypsy violinist I have no trouble supposing that I would choose the gypsy.

    But in 1000 hypothetical cases which depended on my abstract values and sense of probable outcomes I can easily imagine Jews being saved ahead of gypsies. OK no problem you may say. “I can see you are makinga utilitarian judgment** after looking at individuals as individuals”. But what about group judgments? Same utilitarian criteria but likely to be on less precise evidence and more subject tobideological or H-bd generalisations/prejudices. Yes I would divert the SS to the gypsy camp and rush off to tell the Jews tonleave the stetl in all probability rather than the other way round if one couldn’t somehow save both. Of course I like to think I cpuld have sent the SS put on to a freshly frozen lake…
    **hard questions, even harder questions, would arise when preserving those who might for a time look after children could be a choice. But “women and children first” hss its limits if none of them could stop the lifeboat from sinking and in the endeating the cabin boy might be defensible!

  149. @iffen

    I fall back on precision – that’s my description anyway. I don’t accept the logical implications of the way you frame the question. That is that some groups might “deserve” to be wiped out [genocided as you put it] more than others, or at all.

    • Replies: @iffen
  150. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Allright, so do explain to this imbecile, where you spot a lack of growth in the U.S.

    Here is real [meaning inflation adjusted] disposable personal Income

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0

    Rurik, you are grasping at straws with a great deal of hand-waving to grasp said straws.

    [because the leaches latched firmly to the skin of the working man in this country, are greedily slurping out the shekels from his efforts- and are always growing, (like the ticks that they are), they always need more and more. Because the fake debt that we’re all paying interest on always keeps growing too. So that’s why we always have to import more immigrants, to keep the economy growing and the demand for housing and all the other scams they’re running.]

    Far too many metaphors. You are speaking of Jews=banksters= Fed=Debt=ticks right? Well come out and say it without resorting to subterfuge. Again if you actually had any information regarding personal tax rates in the U.S. you would have known that this country has the lowest rate amongst developed countries:

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate

    So again wtf are you talking about? If you hate Jews so much, just come out and say it clearly. At the risk of subject drift, I say to you, the Jews you hate are not going anywhere and for whatever reason we are reasonably successful in the country and in many other nations. Do we network? Yes. Why don’t you? Do we control the media ? Not exclusively, and even if we do, what of it? Compete with us man! Do we control finance? We are influential sure, but did we stop you from competing? Do you understand the meaning of competition mate? [btw Trump likes kosher style as well, didn't you notice?]

    Immigrants. Yes they are receiving a great many from Mexico, but that has very little to do with our unemployed Whites. You are an unapologetic 88 I realise, but I should expect you to say that you hate the mexxers just on account of their …..whatever, and not conflate it with any imagined economic condition of Whites, which if anything is squarely explained by our China policy:

    http://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/decline-us-manufacturing-jobs-tied-shift-china-trade-policy

    When you say “If you’d have bothered to read what I wrote, you’d know why I’m saying that.” you are depositing the steaming stuff; nothing to be so chuffed about, with the smileys etc., mate. If your point is that we aren’t conducting monetary policy of the Weimar such that we won’t see hyperinflation, then you basically just propped up a straw man when you even mentioned the Weimar. If there was a deeper point, please indulge me and explain. And spare me Matt Taibbi’s dated articles. I read this one back in 2011, buh-leeeve me. We are talking about growth in the U.S. which is manifestly here [even as I write this, the payroll numbers came in at 255k, that is 255k new jobs produced in the last month].

    What the fuck are you talking about ?

    • Replies: @5371
    , @Rurik
    , @Wizard of Oz
    , @iffen
  151. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    you frame the question.

    I didn’t make it Sophie’s choice, you did.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  152. @iffen

    I, too, need to work to earn my daily bread, iffen, and today there’s a full menu of dough to be kneaded & I don’t have time to fully respond.
    Beyond that, it would be almost cruel to fully respond to what I assume you offered up as a refutation of my statement about Irving’s history of the bombing of Dresden.

    OBVIOUSLY the German people and the people of Dresden knew they had been bombed, and OBVIOUSLY Germany’s propaganda ministry would work to explain it and to turn the OBVIOUS bombing in a way that would inspirit the German people: would you have expected Goebbels to publish posters encouraging the German people to turn lights on to make Allied targeting easier?

    Even today many–but not all or even most– Americans are aware that the US, or was it the British?– bombed Dresden. But how many Americans are aware that the USA in concert with the British planned to terror bomb Germany — that is, to bomb civilians in a deliberate attempt to break their morale — even before 1938? (You won’t find that information on wikipedia, iffen). It’s for damn sure most Americans, actually, not even a slender minority of Americans, are aware that the USA, with the collaboration of “the Jewish architect,” Erich Mendelsohn, and Hollywood studio set designers (Hollywood studios were run almost exclusively by Jewish people in the 1930s and 1940s) built and furnished precise replicas of German (and Japanese) workers housing and practiced firebombing them to develop the “most efficient way” of creating a firestorm to incinerate the maximum number of people and civilian infrastructure. The furnishings in German Village included cribs, anticipating that the people intended to be burned alive included infants.

    Kurt Vonnegut published Slaughterhouse Five in 1969. Vonnegut acknowledged Irving’s work on Dresden (1963) on the very first page of the book. In the text of his novel, Vonnegut wrote:

    “I wrote the Air Force back then, asking for details about the raid on Dresden, who ordered it, how many planes did it, why they did it, what desirable results there had been
    and so on. I was answered by a man who, like myself, was in public relations. He said that he was sorry, but that the information was top secret still.
    I read the letter out loud to my wife, and I said, ‘Secret? My God-from whom?’
    . . .
    That must have been in 1964 or so.”


    No, I wasn’t wanting you to say XYZ so that I could say you had read the wrong books; the argument is far more devastating.

    First, as noted above, the authors of the listed books acknowledge that they made use of the German archives, that were then under the control of Robert Wolfe, for significant material in their respective books.

    Second, this conversation started with mention of Sam Untermyer’s speech in August 1933. I noted that the date is important. Parts of Untermyer’s speech were in boldface type:

    the world will confront a picture so fearful in its barbarous cruelty that the hell of war and the alleged Belgian atrocities will pale into insignificance as compared to this devilishly, deliberately, cold-bloodedly planned and already partially executed campaign for the extermination of a proud, gentle, loyal, law-abiding people.

    In “FDR and the Jews,” Richard Breitman wrote, on the first page:

    “[Adolf Hitler came to power January 30, 1933.] Yet before the war Nazi oppression of German Jews followed a jagged trajectory. Some Nazi activists physically assaulted Jews in the early exuberant days of Hitler’s semi legal revolution. Once secure in their authority, Nazi officials curbed personal violence . . . against Jews. Only in late 1938 did central authorities . . .for the first time . . .imprison tens of thousands of German Jews in concentration camps that also held other alleged enemies of Hitler’s new Reich.”

    If Breitman got his information from German documents; and Breitman said that “Nazis curbed violence against Jews,” what was Untermyer talking about? What was he up to?

    In “The Transfer Agreement,” Edwin Black quoted an incident that Rabbi Stephen Wise recorded in his autobiography (The Challenging Years); namely, a conversation between Wise and Louis Brandeis that took place on or before Feb. 14, 1933. Brandeis directed that “All Jews must leave Germany . . . I urge that no Jew remain in Germany.” Wise replied, “How shall 587,000 Jewish people be removed from Germany?” Brandeis waved aside Wise’s complaint: “I urge that no Jew remain in Germany.”
    Black then explained that German Jews were needed to migrate to Palestine because only German Jews had sufficient wealth to satisfy British regulations, and the zionist project was in great financial peril and would fail if it did not receive an infusion of German Jewish wealth.

    It should be noted that Untermyer’s speech occurred upon his return from a meeting in Europe of Jewish leaders from around the world. “International Jewry” had already “declared war on Germany” and initiated an boycott of German export and trade intended to “destroy the trade upon which Germany’s existence depends.”
    It should also be noted that that speech or subsequent speeches by Untermyer (I forget which) was before a Jewish audience assembled for fundraising purposes, to finance construction of Hebrew University in Rehovath. By 1937-38 Erich Mendelsohn, “the Jewish architect,” completed a phase of that construction as well as luxury residences for Chaim Weizmann and for the Schocken family, both in Rehovath.

    Cycle back to Rabbi Wise and his autobiography, where he noted that he received many, many notes and letters from Jews in Germany who pleaded with him to cease the provocations of Germany’s government. German Jews were in many instances in accord with German policies that spelled out clearly the rules of engagement, and Jews were not opposed to those rules. Moreover, German Jews were not willing to give up their comfortable lives in Germany for the uncertainties of life in not-yet-developed Palestine. Wise wrote that he “stopped opening the letters” from German Jews.

    It seems fair to surmise that Untermyer’s bombastic speech and statements about “planned extermination of German Jews,” statements totally divorced from reality, according to Breitman’s report, fits that commonest of all categories, an attempt to evoke fear in order to induce German Jews to do that which they were otherwise unwilling to do.

    gotta go now …. too bad: I’d like to expand a bit more on Brandeis and his concern for German Jews at a time when it was Polish and Russian Jews who were under mortal threat …

    • Replies: @iffen
  153. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    So a pithy summary might be: The Allies confiscated the methodical documents of the Nazi Third Reich, locked them away from public scrutiny, followed by indiscriminate falsification by Jews [and Anglos] to erect an entirely spurious account of the Holocaust for posterity and the eternal benefit of world Jewry.

    [full disclosure: I haven't read Shirer's Rise and Fall even as it resides in my father's library, prominently neighbouring Churchill's History of the English Speaking Peoples and The Second World War, both of which I have read ]

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  154. 5371 says:
    @Sam Shama

    [We are talking about growth in the U.S. which is manifestly here]

    I beg to differ, Sam; precious little of a solid kind:

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  155. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    OBVIOUSLY Germany’s propaganda ministry would work to explain it and to turn the OBVIOUS bombing in a way that would inspirit the German people:

    Obviously the propaganda was directed toward world opinion. You did notice the Associated Press in bold, didn’t you?

    Even today many–but not all or even most– Americans are aware

    If one of my hurdles is going to be defending the historical ignorance of most Americans, I forfeit it all to you.

    Kurt Vonnegut published Slaughterhouse Five in 1969.

    I read Slaughterhouse Five, likely in 1970, but did not remember the shout-out to Irving. The essence I retained, so I have been aware of the fire-bombing of Dresden all these years; the fire-bombing of Tokyo too.

    First, as noted above, the authors of the listed books acknowledge that they made use of the German archives, that were then under the control of Robert Wolfe, for significant material in their respective books.

    This is just one source. There are literally thousands of source materials.

    My impression is that your revisionist history is a rabbit hole inside a rabbit hole.

    Anyway, I want to thank you for all the names and information.

    I am going to leave you off the CTI list for now. Helena keeps badgering me to “listen” to all the evidence.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  156. @Sam Shama

    Lose the loaded language and over-generalizations; add some essential details, and yeah, the first paragraph is about right.

  157. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    What the fuck are you talking about ?

    I’m saying the Federal Reserve Bank is a scam and a swindle and a fraud Sam

    I’m saying that it loots the value of every dollar saved by hard-working people who’ve sweated and struggled to put some cash away only to have their savings turned into a pile of manure by the criminals running the Fed. That’s what I’m saying Sam. The charter of the Fed says it’s purpose for existence is to maintain the value of the dollar, and then like that doctor who poisoned his patience for profit, the banksters at the Fed do exactly the opposite of what they’re trusted to do, by inflating the currency and handing out billions to their buddies. That’s what I’m saying Sam.

    this fraudulent swindle has been responsible for the rise of the .0001% to stratospheric wealth while the rest of the people languish or worse. Now you can gloat all you want to about how these Jews have been able to trick the stupid goyim and loot them use them as cannon fodder for wars for Israel, if that amuses you. But it seems a little crass to me Sam.

    What we should be doing is looking at these institutions that are being used by the .0001% and central banksters to loot and destroy so many people’s lives Sam. Not gloating about how well you Jews network and such. That’s all very fine and well. I have no problem personally with anyone networking or seeking prosperity, unless it’s done by less than honorable means, and more to the point, is causing the world to be driven to the brink by the uber-corruption of Wall Street and the governments of the West, that are busy slaughtering and destroying the lives of millions of people all over the globe for the greater glory of that shitty little Nazi state. Wouldn’t you agree Sam?

    Don’t you think it would be beneficial if the people of the world could rein in these out of control .001%s who’re causing so much suffering and misery as they stuff their pockets with so much ill-gotten lucre?

    Surely you agree with that Sam!

    and that, btw, is what the fuck I’m talking about ;)

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Wizard of Oz
  158. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    What little I know about Himmler is that he was a puny, evil man who ran his own show outside the awareness of Hitler, and that he murdered a lot of Jewish people.

    The implication of this sentence just dawned upon me. Are you agreeing that there was a Holocaust, but that Hitler didn’t know about it?

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  159. @iffen

    This is just one source. There are literally thousands of source materials.

    True.
    Much of it is bogus, i.e. the Jewish woman who crapped diamonds; or the Jewish woman who was in the doorway of the gas chamber but Mengele pulled her aside, or the Jewish woman who, as a child, was in a German hospital where Mengele said she would die but those bastard German doctors and nurses nursed her back to life so that she was alive and kicking at 80+ and able to testify against a 90-year old German man who handled baggage at a train station in Poland or some damn thing.

    You alluded above to Sophie’s choice and apparently think it’s history. Have you ever thought about the choices French women had to make about which of their children to save when the Allies bombed France, killing 70,000 French civilians? How many books have been written and movies produced about German women who saw their babies reduced to smudges on a wall by Allied firebombing? Erich Mendelsohn was instrumental in planning that incineration. Today there are numerous synagogues and other Jewish-related buildings built by Erich Mendelsohn where Jewish people acclaim him. Jules Streicher was killed for writing nasty things about Jews; Mendelsohn, instrumental in the deliberate incineration of German babies, is venerated by Jews in the synagogues he designed.

    There are very few books from- and by- the German point of view; Americans and British were able to cull and censor a massive amount of that information before German historians or leaders had access to it. Maj. General Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof is one of very few Germans who have examined the Anglo-Jewish record from which his own children and all German school children are taught; compared it with other German documents, and exposed the distortions in the Anglo-Jewish version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBLgZAv_Iqo

    You, iffen, stated ( @ #147 ) your special animus toward holocaust deniers or revisionists. What’s your problem? What is your goal, iffen — Accurate Scholarship, or affirmation of what I am forced to judge is a narcissistic point of view?

    My concern — and I should think every American legislator and policy maker’s concern– is not to attend to Jewish sensitivities at the expense of an authentic understanding of historical events, but to arrive at the most accurate assessment possible of the reality of a situation.

    Have we learned nothing from what we are told was “mistakes” in assessing information about Iraq?

    If information used for the analysis is wrong, the solution to the problem cannot be correct. The condition of the world today demonstrate to us that solutions to world problems are seriously out of whack; we must re-examine every factor and variable in the analysis and figure out where the mistakes were made. The sanctions against a full examination of the historical record re an alleged holocaust are the height of anti-Americanism; it follows that so-called holocaust deniers or revisionists are the penultimate USAian patriots.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @L.K
  160. Sam Shama says:
    @5371

    Hi 5371, I don’t dispute IP and man. orders have been tepid at best, and those are precisely the important factors of growth I worry about.

    I am going to succumb to the temptation of inserting a few more graphs on the other indicators [ leading, coincident and lagging: housing starts, retail sales, %change in inventories, OECD produced U.S gdp growth rate, real wages, leaving out the stock market which is of course legitimately vulnerable to the charge of leveraged buybacks propelling growth]

    H Starts

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST#0

    Retail:

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RSXFS#0

    % change Inventories:

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/UMTMTI#0

    OECD US gdp growth rate:

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LORSGPORUSQ661S#0

    Real Wages:

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

    All of these indicate varying levels of forward, current and immediately preceding growth. So Industrial Production and durable goods orders are weak and there isn’t a way to dance around those indicators. It is my hope that high-value-added middle stage and early stage manufacturing re-emerge in the U.S. at appreciable levels, an outcome dependent on the tricky business of essentially wresting these away from our trade “partners” without triggering a trade war. I am unreservedly in favour of maintaining a solid manufacturing base, even if it leads to comparative disadvantage, a sound trade-off in the interests of long-term demographic equity and stability. As you might reckon, this is exactly what I hope for, under a Trump administration.

    [P.S.: my somewhat agitated post to Rurik was largely provoked by the Weimar straw-man and the bewildering metaphors which prompted me to dispense with these more nuanced points]

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  161. @iffen

    a Holocaust,

    Which holocaust are you talking about?

    One of the holocausts Stephen Wise wrote about beginning in about 1900?

    (Wise, you may recall, is the same rabbi who promulgated the report that “Nazis are making soap and lampshades from Jewish flesh.” Rabbi Wise is also the individual who promulgated the so-called Riegner telegram. )

    • Replies: @iffen
  162. helena says:
    @iffen

    Better make that Revisionist – you wouldn’t want to get confused with devotees of David Samuel “Sam” Peckinpah*, now would you?

    *The Peckinpahs originated from the Frisian Islands in the northwest of Europe. Both sides of Peckinpah’s family migrated to the American West by covered wagon in the mid-19th century.

    • Replies: @iffen
  163. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    What is your goal, iffen — Accurate Scholarship, or affirmation of what I am forced to judge is a narcissistic point of view?

    My goal is the pursuit of accurate scholarship to facilitate the successful pursuit of political goals. In this instance, it would be to separate support for rational and nationalist liberal democracy from racism and WWII revisionist ideas. Any competent reading of the current presidential race will instruct one in the manner in which the MSM uses propaganda and innuendo to damage Trump by trying to connect him to all manner of racism and fascism. Ergo if there was a clean separation from and denunciation of racism and anti-Semitism, the American people might be able to take advantage of this last chance.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  164. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Which holocaust are you talking about?

    Note the capital H.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  165. iffen says:
    @helena

    One at a time, Helena. I still haven’t been able to sort out whether I should use lobby or Lobby.

    • Replies: @helena
  166. Sam Shama says:
    @Sam Shama

    The percentage changes did not show as intended, but using the edit function allows various rates etc. to be viewed

  167. helena says:
    @iffen

    Depends whether you’re staying in a 2-star or 5-star hotel.

    • Replies: @iffen
  168. @iffen

    I don’t accept that I *made* anything Sophie’s choice but I do acknowledge that I raised Sophie’s choice questions in replying to Sam Shama.

  169. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    [I’m saying that it loots the value of every dollar saved by hard-working people who’ve sweated and struggled to put some cash away only to have their savings turned into a pile of manure by the criminals running the Fed. That’s what I’m saying Sam. The charter of the Fed says it’s purpose for existence is to maintain the value of the dollar, and then like that doctor who poisoned his patience for profit, the banksters at the Fed do exactly the opposite of what they’re trusted to do, by inflating the currency and handing out billions to their buddies. That’s what I’m saying Sam.]\

    The penny dropped for me as to why I missed your imperviousness to data and reason: you have a gift for grandstanding that Jesse Jackson would envy. You are missing your true calling Rurik; skip the merely local elections and head straight for one of the 24 U.S. congressional seats to be vacated by retiring GoP congressmen.

    [The charter of the Fed says it’s purpose for existence is to maintain the value of the dollar,]

    Wrong. The Fed has the dual mandate of price stability and non-inflationary unemployment level maintenance. I have pointed this out to you ad nauseam, the trope “92% of value lost in the dollar since …” is the equivalent of medieval incantations to raise the spirits. What can median real earnings purchase today as compared to any arbitrary date in the modern era past is the logical question.

    In the end I suspect you are looking to time-travel to Rome of the emperor Diocletian, circa 285; a fine enough ambition, and seeing as relentless repetition is you forte, I would pick you as a professional scribe, earning 31,00 Sestertii per year [equivalent of about $50,000 current dollars]. Mind you, your consumables would be limited to:

    [2 bedroom dwelling without a bath, wheat, olive oil, grapes, beans, sesame, flax, millet, oats, peas, barley, occasional beef, salt, sandals and vin ordinaire]

    No iPhone, cars, internet and certainly no time to post on the UR.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  170. iffen says:
    @helena

    At a 2-star run by the Patels, it would be a lobby.
    At a 5-star run by Steins, it would be Lobby.

  171. @Rurik

    There’s a lot of assertion and rhetoric but I don’t see any reasoned case.

  172. helena says:
    @Sam Shama

    Thanks. I’m taking it all in.

  173. @iffen

    Note the capital H

    .

    tee hee.
    you make things so easy.

    (I typed the information, below, in the original response but decided to wait until you stepped into my parlor.)

    David Engel presented a series of lectures titled Understanding the holocaust (actually, he uses a capital H, but I think that’s a bit pretentious, don’t you agree?). In the first lecture he explained that the holocaust was not given much importance until about 1961; he said the trial of Eichmann brought to the fore the full scope of “Hitler’s plan to exterminate every Jew in the world,” a phrase Engel repeated at least a dozen times in the course of six or eight lectures.

    I think it’s interesting that Robert Wolfe became director of the German documents at US National Archives just at the time that, as Engel says, the Holocaust was elevated to the most unique and egregious act of evil in the whole world if not the planetary system (Timothy Snyder is reviving the Borscht Belt with an expanded version of the evilness of Hitler; quoth Snyder:

    “Hitler did not see the Jews as a race, but as parahuman beings who had to be removed somehow from the planet.”

    For Amis and Rosenbaum Hitler is a “common thug, barely literate;” for Snyder, Hitler “thinks planetary, acts local/regional.” As they say in the Borscht Belt, oy vey.

    Back to Engel — his core argument is that it is essential that the Holocaust (or must it be The Holocaust) be a proper noun, with a capital Haich (as my Irish boss used to say) because it is an event unique in all of world — or planetary — history. “Never before had a state set out to slaughter its own citizens,” says Engel (except. of course that little situation just before Hitler came to power wherein Stalin killed 10- or 12- or 30-million Ukrainian and Russian peasants, but as Susan Wertheim Butler explained, Stalin’s killings were okey-dokey because “Stalin killed kulaks.” )

    In a conversation with Norman Mezvinsky about his book, The Wandering Who, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKN8toqMAK8 Gilad Atzmon explained his concept of “Pre-traumatic stress disorder,” suffered by so many Jewish people. His explanation might explain how/why the holocaust was elevated to The Holocaust in the early 1960s. Atzmon said that people who actually experienced the trauma of war in Europe 1939 – 1945 — that is, holocaust survivors (itself an oxymoron) — knew at a visceral level how they dealt with threats and their fears, and that they endured them and survived.

    [MORE]

    The next generation — the children of actual survivors who came of age in the 1960s — had been told very scary stories about the war (something that was not a prominent feature among non-Jewish American children of WWII warriors, a large number of whom, like my father, kept their memories to themselves). Those Jewish children internalized the fears and the visceral hatred that was communicated to them (i.e. Sam Schama wrote that his grandmother retains a hatred of Germans), but did not have a psychological experience of having overcome the threats and fears; they are stuck in a loop of repeating a threat that is NOT real but that pushes all the psychological buttons that require a fight-or-flight response. Israel’s government, and Jewish institutions in the USA and elsewhere, have created and deployed programs specifically tailored to push those buttons and keep the fear alive (heh; that oughta be a brand: Keep Fear Alive!)

    Avigail Abarbanel, born and raised in Israel and trained as a psychologist, has made pretty much the same assessment. Israel’s Trauma Psychology.

    Apparently, Jewish children in Israel’s schools are inculcated with a version of Keep Fear Alive!; as well, according to Dana Karon, they are also lied to about the character of the Jewish colonization of Palestine. Karon was near tears when she told a panel led by Peter Beinart that “We were lied to” in our Jewish schools in Israel — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmkmwuDAy90
    (at around 50 min, then go to the end of the video and watch as Dana is disabused of her apostasy).

    A core concept of zionism was to create the New Jew; Jewish children are bathed in an atmosphere of affirmation of their specialness and their intelligence. Dr. Sam Vaknin http://samvak.tripod.com/journal43.html argues (or rationalizes) that such excessive mother-love produces a narcissistic personality, with its key feature being the incapacity to empathize with the perspective of another, or sometimes, even with reality.

    All of these forces — Pre-traumatic Stress Disorder; societally-conditioned psychosis; the consistently affirmed sense of specialness, and unique victim status — converge to create a rather freakish belief that one, as a Jew, is indeed “parahuman,” and unique in all the planet. Any refutation or contradiction of that sense of specialness, or of unique suffering, is necessarily perceived as a threat to one’s identity or sense of self. As Vaknin explains, the narcissist has a battery of techniques to preserve his world view in the face of assaults upon it: in the battle between reality and the over-trained capital Haich-Holocaust world view, capital H must prevail, evidence and facts be damned. http://samvak.tripod.com/journal43.html

    Did some, even a lot, of Jews die in Europe in the war? Yes, of course they did. Who killed them and why are questions that the doctrine of the holocaust does not permit to be answered in any way other than a prescribed narrative.

    Michael Ledeen has made a few comments that let the cat — or at least its tail — out of the bag about why the prescribed answers to Who Killed so many Jews and Why. Over ten years ago Ledeen and his wife appeared on C Span’s Washington Journal, where Ledeen made the curious statement, “We really ought to stop talking about the holocaust (or The Holocaust).
    Wow.
    Rank apostasy.
    Some years later, Ledeen was talking about his book on Machiavelli and mentioned that Machiavelli was a big fan of Moses, and that a crucial scene in the whole Moses story is when Moses deploys the Levites to kill Jews. Jews killing Jews. Holy Moses.

    Let’s take another look at Tim Snyder, and at Louis Brandeis’s directive that “All Jews leave Germany,” and also at a dude named Arthur Ruppin, who “Produced Hebrew Culture in Palestine” in the pre-Balfour years.
    In reverse order: Ruppin was an award-winning scholar and practitioner of eugenics; as Etan Bloom explains in his dissertation-book about Ruppin, he applied eugenic principles to the selection of “human material” for the creation of the “new Jew.” Eastern Europeans were in the least desirable category of that “human material.” In fact, one group of East European Jews who had migrated to Palestine was sent back because they could not meet expectations.

    As noted elsewhere, Brandeis directed that “all Jews must leave Germany.”
    Russian and Polish Jews — those about whom Stephen Wise had been kvetching since 1900 that Russian Jews were being holocausted — fend for yourselves.

    Timothy Snyder affirms that situation: he tells his audiences that “German Jews were the smallest group of those killed in WWII; the largest numbers of Jews who were killed were from Poland and Hungary.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfgQWc4q2Bo These folks were not Ruppin’s favorite peeps. Susan Wertheim Butler also thought they were dispensable. Or is that disposable.

    David Engel, as well as Snyder and another Jewish author, Jeffrey Herf, of course blame all those
    deaths on Hitler, because Hitler had only one testicle; or Hitler didn’t get into art school; or Hitler harbored a planetary hatred of Jews; or Hitler was the embodiment of evil. (The thing about excess is that after a while one smells a rat; the protests too much phenomenon kicks in.)

    When one cranks into the equation the arguments that Pat Buchanan has made, that the British guarantees to Poland made no sense — but that Churchill insisted upon them and also rebuffed numerous of Hitler’s overtures to make peace; and when one acknowledges the research of Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof, that Hitler and the Nazis made numerous and strenuous efforts to negotiate with Poland, up until the very last minute, but that Polish leaders were made truculent by British guarantees; and when one observes that Jewish partisans deliberately stirred up the Polish people — Jewish as well as non-Jews — to hate Germans; then it begins to appear that what Atzmon explains as some unique phenomena “pre-traumatic stress” that only Jews experience and nobody else is really a guilty conscience: that as Michael Ledeen knows, Jews killed Jews, or set up circumstances so that Jews of less-desireable “human material” would be killed. That’s why Ledeen does not want to talk about a holocaust much less The Holocaust, and it’s equally why people like Bibi Netanyahu and Abe Foxman, and David Engel and the entire out-of-control network of holocaust high priests and priestesses have created an entire weltanschauung to insist upon psychological conditioning in a Holocaust psychosis, lest Jews discover the reality of what their leaders and the leaders of zionism did to create the zionist project in Palestine.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  174. @Sam Shama

    Very interesting Sam, just after I have made a tentative comparison between high IQ educated Jews and the English and American upper and upper middle classes of say 100 years ago that you should write of “we” (Jews) and your networking.

    How does it work? Who does it exclude/discriminate against? Why is it necessary/justified as an exclusive Jewish thing?

    I have Jewish friends and acquaintances whom I would not hesitate to tap for advice to or reference for a young relative or a donation to or work for a cause including ones who tell me e.g. “my mother would have been very upset if I had married outside the community”. Barristers are usually more tribally barristers upholding Bar traditions than tribally anything else but would never be surprised to find publicans having theirliquor license appeals handled by counsel of Irish Catholic background and rich Jewish businessmen would be expected to give retainers to Jewish counsel more often than to gentiles. But I think you are meaning something more close knit than this? Would the Freemasons perhaps be or have been comparable networkers – except that Masons aren’t an ethnic group?

    By the way I had the impression you were English and lived and work in the UK. Have you moved, or moved back to the US?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
    , @iffen
  175. @iffen

    In this rational scenario, would l/Lobbiests for Israel be required to register as foreign agents, like every other foreign agent with whom the USA deals?

    Would the USA continue to pay over to Israel — with one of the highest GDPs in the region — tens of billions of dollars that Israel routinely uses to kill Palestinians?

    Would Israel lobbyists continue to distort and propagandize information and communications to the American people in a way that will propel the USA into further harm to Russia and Iran?

    Would Jewish agents continue in their positions of dominance and control over major and taxpayer funded institutions where information crucial to the policy-making is secreted in furtherance of Israeli or Jewish preferences?

    Would the constraints of full-throated and multi-lateral explorations of the foreign policy activities of the US military, i.e. in WWII, remain in place, or would free and robust research, discussion and dissemination of all points of view and bodies of evidence be assessed on their merits, not on their quality of satisfying one minority constituency?

    Would the dominance of Jewish-authored and enforced so-called holocaust education in US public schools cease and desist, as it is a violation of free speech rights and of freedom of religion?

    • Replies: @iffen
  176. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Jabberwocky par excellence.

    I told Helena that I would read it; not lap it up.

  177. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    The rational question is whether the Jewish/Israeli lobby should be rendered as Lobby. And if it is decided that it should be Lobby, what is the rationale for doing so. Does use of Lobby imply anti-Semitism?

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  178. Sam Shama says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    [But I think you are meaning something more close knit than this? Would the Freemasons perhaps be or have been comparable networkers]

    No I am not; also, your description of Jewish networking and your own interactions with Jews, quite adequately covers my own comportment.

    I suppose were I to tally a frequency table of my friends, colleagues and acquaintances by age and religion, I would find it fairly uniform, with perhaps a slight bias to Jewish and Christian 35-50 year olds. I call upon them as they call upon me for help and advice, with an eye only to topical or professional relevance.

    I was raised and educated [the better years :-) ] in England, worked in London and the ME for a period, and now reside in the New York metro area; so I suppose culturally I am an anglo-jewish mutt seeking glory and redemption in the New World.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  179. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Sorry WOZ, #179 should be attached to #176.

  180. @Sam Shama

    So you were tweaking his tail with your challenge to him to network and compete :-)

    • LOL: Sam Shama
  181. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    [The next generation — the children of actual survivors who came of age in the 1960s — had been told very scary stories about the war (something that was not a prominent feature among non-Jewish American children of WWII warriors, a large number of whom, like my father, kept their memories to themselves). Those Jewish children internalized the fears and the visceral hatred that was communicated to them (i.e. Sam Schama wrote that his grandmother retains a hatred of Germans), but did not have a psychological experience of having overcome the threats and fears;]

    S2C, while I admire your indefatigable industry, you are misrepresenting my dear Granny; she bears no grudge towards Germans, only Nazis. In fact what I wrote last year:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-iranian-threat/#comment-1081051

    I really have never actually met a jew with deep hatred of non-jews in this country or in Europe. In fact my Austrian grandmother who is survivor, (therefore with every reason to utterly despise Germans), embraces a practical approach to the matter and goes on with life as if nothing really terrible transpired (in fact to this day she keeps in close touch with her German friends). She sees it as one example of the many lamentable episodes of Man’s history, when we are seized by demonic hatred.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  182. @iffen

    why in the world should any American care one fig about antisemitism © ® ?

    Isn’t it racist for Jews to demand special treatment?

    The question is, is one anti-American?

    • Replies: @iffen
  183. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    it’s purpose for existence is to maintain the value of the dollar,]

    Wrong. The Fed has the dual mandate of price stability and non-inflationary unemployment level maintenance.

    I know of it’s other mandates, but it’s the one concerning the value of the dollar that I;m mostly interested, not that it doesn’t betray and subvert all of it’s mandates. It does ; )

    What can median real earnings purchase today as compared to any arbitrary date in the modern era past is the logical question.

    we’ve been through this Sam

    The dollar has seen its value plunge, even in just my lifetime. My dad raised a large family on a school administrators salary of like three or four thousand dollars a year. That was when I was very young. That was enough to raise a family and pay a mortgage and own a car. When my dad was a young man, he told us you could go to a movie on Saturday night for a nickel. You could take a date for a dime. How does all that compare to today Sam? How much can you get for a dime today?

    here’s a little chart showing the value of some foodstuffs at the time the Fed was created vs. today

    January 1913 ____ January 2013_______________% Increase

    Bread
    $ 0.056 _________$ 1.422 ____________________2439%

    Fresh milk, per gallon(1)
    $0.089/quart _____(or $0.356/gallon) $3.526_______ 890%

    Cheese
    $0.222__________ $5.832_____________________ 2527%

    Butter
    $0.409__________ $3.501_____________________ 756%

    Coffee
    $0.299 $5.902 1874%

    Potatoes
    $0.016 $0.627 3819%

    Rice
    $0.086 $0.715 731%

    Sirloin steak
    $0.238 $5.705 2297%

    Round steak
    $0.205 $5.074 2375%

    Chuck roast
    $0.149 $3.696 2381%

    Pork chops
    $0.187 $3.465 1753%

    Bacon
    $0.254 $4.407 1635%

    Ham
    $0.251 $2.693 973%

    Eggs, per dozen
    $0.373 $1.933 418%

    Sugar
    $0.058 $0.683 1078%

    anyways, you get the idea

    since the dawn of the Fed, the value of our money has been looted, as the banksters simply printed and printed and printed, without oversight or controls

    as we’ve witnessed, Alan Greenspan explaining that the Fed is unaccountable to either the president or congress

    I have to go, but we can continue with this later, OK?

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Sam Shama
  184. @Sam Shama

    Apologies to your grandmother.

    I knew I should have fact-checked that reference.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  185. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    why in the world should any American care one fig about antisemitism © ® ?

    to separate support for rational and nationalist liberal democracy from racism and WWII revisionist ideas. Any competent reading of the current presidential race will instruct one in the manner in which the MSM uses propaganda and innuendo to damage Trump by trying to connect him to all manner of racism and fascism. Ergo if there was a clean separation from and denunciation of racism and anti-Semitism, the American people might be able to take advantage of this last chance.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @helena
  186. L.K says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Hey Solonto,

    you wrote: “You, iffen, stated ( @ #147 ) your special animus toward holocaust deniers or revisionists. What’s your problem? What is your goal, iffen…”

    Well, iffen’s goal is propaganda, of course, this vermin is one of the main zio/jew supremacist shills on this site. He/she does not give a damn about exactitute, historical truth, none of that.
    “history” is just a tool, as in a bludgeon, to be used by these maggots to promote their agendas.

    There were 1,092,000 holohoax survivors still alive in 2003, according to Israeli demographer Dr. Sergio DellaPergola.
    This means there were millions of ‘survivors’ at the end of the war. These survivors are all evidence that the “Holocaust” really is a monstrous Jewish/Allied hoax & a blood libel against the German people.

    Obviously, had the National Socialists really desired to exterminate the European Jews, they had at their disposal ample means to reach such an objective, and there would have been hardly any Jews left alive in Europe at the war’s end.
    Yet, as we know, this is NOT what happened.

    Take care

  187. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Immigrants. Yes they are receiving a great many from Mexico, but that has very little to do with our unemployed Whites.

    Sam, I just now started reading some of your posts on finance and economics and found this. It can’t be correct.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  188. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik!

    Does it surprise you that zionist shill and Jewish activist, sam sham, defends the FED so fiercely?
    ;-)

    These motherf*ckers are so predictable…

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  189. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    The little chart, and this statement of yours,
    [since the dawn of the Fed, the value of our money has been looted]

    reminded me of this lovely Arab lady I know in Teverya, Israel. She sells olive based products, and never tires telling her customers how much olive oil the old Palestinian Pound purchased. When I pointed out to her what I am about to tell you, she simply dismissed me with a wave of her hand, “don’t interrupt my musings!”

    So, let’s see what happened to per capita income:

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A792RC0Q052SBEA

    it went from $1320 in 1947 [presumably much lower in 1913] to $49,000 in 2016, a rise of 3700%. Are you with me? Also, food occupied a much larger share of income in those days, to further bolster the contention that the Paulite trope is wrong-headed. Naturally, to my amusement and chagrin- you deliberately ignored the logic.

  190. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Could’ve stated it better, meant to say that it isn’t so much owing to low-skill illegals coming here, rather than deliberate industrial policy shifting production to China and Mexico.

    • Replies: @iffen
  191. Sam Shama says:
    @L.K

    Hello L.K.
    Projection of your acts on your own mother [and pets], display even greater predictability.

  192. @iffen

    I read it the first time, iffen. It was abstract and self-rservomg then and is now.

    You are insisting that one and only one version of WWII is correct and acceptable, iow you are behaving in exactly the way predicted in the long and industrious rant posted earlier.

    No other history is accepted as handed down in the first cut. David Engel’s lectures were remarkable in that he insisted that as new material becomes available –as, per his example, in the Eichmann trial — history must be revised. Of course he would insist, as you seem to do, that any revisions must only enhance the images Narcissus views in the pond; never must Narcissus turn his gaze elsewhere or incorporate the perspective of the Other; that would demand empathy, the ability to see the point of view of another person/group.

    Some people are so wedded to what they perceive to be, or have been indoctrinated to accept as, the one and only, self-serving version of reality that they are incapable of comprehending how that perception flies in the face of the situation they are in and the loyalties that situation quite rightly demands. The David Engel lectures intrigue in one other way: Engel finds himself repeatedly required to back-track and say that although “Hitler planned to exterminate every Jew in the world,” in this case, that case and the other case, i.e. in Poland, or in France, or in Hungary, or in Austria, it was not Germans but the natives — Poles, Frenchmen, Hungarians, Austrians who killed Jews. Engel does not permit himself to draw the obvious conclusion: Poles, etc. had been pushed around by supremacist Jews for generations; when they found themselves in a situation of chaos they took advantage of the situation for some payback. Karma’s a baetch.

    Tim Snyder’s Borscht belt schtick harbors a similar observation — it was not Germans but the natives who killed Jews — but Snyder concocts a planetary theory about Hitler being responsible for destroying the cohesion of the state, which enabled the restless natives to rampage. (The problem with this thesis is that Snyder — and the audience to whom he sells it like an orgasm — fail to make the appropriate application: if destabilizing the State opens the gates to such instability that it might happen that Jews will be harmed, then why did “International Jewry” intentionally seek to ruin Germany’s economy? Why have Jews and US Congress been working overtime for the past 20 years to destabilize Iran’s economy with the expressed intention that the Iranian people will become so restive that they will “overthrow their government?” )

    In short, iffen, and please try to allow this thought to percolate in your hi-IQ cerebellum: in the United States, the only necessary loyalty is to the USA, not to Jews. Antisemitism may matter to you but it is not a concept enshrined in the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights actually endorses the opposite proposition, that no man or group or creed or ethnicity is of greater importance, or entitled to greater respect than any other group.

    Verstehen Sie?

    • Replies: @iffen
  193. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    No need to apologise. One of these days I resolve to read Shirer and the other titles you referenced. My vague sense this instant, possibly subject to error, is that you are concatenating the words of various Jewish personalities from different points on the timeline, apparently spotting grave inconsistencies in their positions, thereby concluding the existence of an epochal Jewish conspiracy, accidentally unearthed on account of these faux pas.

    If that is a somewhat correct interpretation, I shall keep it in mind when reading those works.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @helena
    , @iffen
  194. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    This is BS. My peeps are up against illegals who live 6 houses away. That is not the same as competing with Asians in factories that have been relocated from the US.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  195. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Yes. I am not fond of illegals and the social turbulence that results from indiscriminate entry, but loss of manufacturing and Industrial jobs are better explained by Industrial policy written in NAFTA and Chinese agreements.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  196. helena says:
    @iffen

    It’s a valid point. The same old argument about reform vs. revolution. On the other hand, having the calibre of research supplied by SalsatoCeasar is an opportunity worth embracing. I don’t think Trump’s campaign will be too much affected.

    • Replies: @iffen
  197. @Sam Shama

    and @ iffen

    from The Taste of Ashes, by Marci Shore

    “The conference to commemorate the Bund’s anniversary was held in the Hotel Europejski, . . .Warsaw’s oldest hotel . . . The lobby conveyed an aging grandiosity: the entrance opened to swirled marble floors, marble walls, a marble staircase with faded carpet. A blend of nineteenth-century and communist-era luxury had now become a dated opulence. The hotel was home to an elegant cafe and a large conference hall where time now collapsed: the Bundists and the Zionists, the Yiddishists and the Hebraists all accused one another. The battles of the 1920s and ‘30s again consumed them—and us.

    For the elderly Bundists had not forgotten that the new Jewish state had been ashamed of the old Jewish world. Had Yiddish not been persecuted in the newly independent Israel? Had there not been laws banning Yiddish publications there? A bombing of a Tel Aviv kiosk selling Yiddish newspapers? A handful of the very las Bundists, old men in their eighties, shouted at the young Israeli professors who had come to give papers on the history of the Bund.

    “You persecuted our language, you killed our culture!” an elderly man yelled.

    One of the young Israeli professors stood up and answered him, “The Zionists didn’t kill the Bund, the Holocaust killed the Bund!” ”

    p 166

  198. helena says:
    @Sam Shama

    “concatenating”

    Cheeky! I haven’t heard that one for a while; I always use ‘conflate’, which seems rather one-dimensional by comparison.

    “from different points on the timeline”

    Do expand, please. I’m easily impressed by dates and documentary evidence.

    Re: incoming immigrants vs. export of jobs abroad – surely it’s a question of volume, do you have any knowledge of relative volumes of incoming vs. outsourced?

  199. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I am replying to some of your comments.

    I wish to put down some rules or a framework.

    I am not a historian; I read the works of historians. Actual historians have refuted and debunked most, if not all, of what you write. I am not going to try to cut and paste and refute each of your claims. There is a lot of information out there, for example, the text of the Irving trial is very informative. Thank you for informing me about the archives and Robert Wolfe, and providing the link to Irving, Lipstadt and Evans.

    You and I do not think alike. If we look at the back of an upright $1 bill, we can see a pyramid with an eye at the top. I think like the pyramid sits. I build my pyramid and then look out through the eye; you think like the pyramid with the bill turned upside down. You look out through the eye and then you build your pyramid. Now, I am not saying that my way is correct or better than yours. It may be that sometimes you way is better and sometimes mine is better. My point is that the intersections between our ways of thinking are almost non-existent, so it is difficult for me to “debate” with you. It is almost, if not entirely, beyond my mental abilities.

    What else remains unknown?

    You make many references to what we don’t know, what could be hidden. You take this fact as a jumping off point to fill in the blanks as you see fit. This is directly contradictory to your statements that we don’t know what is missing, what is hidden, what has been covered up, etc. We only know what we know.

    You construct detailed and complex scenarios based upon one fact or what one Jew said or did without regard to time frame or context. You want to overturn the validity of the Nuremburg trials because some evidence from the seized documents was used. You either ignore hundreds of other pieces of evidence or claim that they are Jewish forgeries. It may be that some evidence was forged or fabricated or has shaky credentials, but not by the thousands.

    A complete, true, and objective understanding of Allied and German — and Jewish — activities leading to- and in the war and post-war is impossible to be known because the chain of custody of the German archives is irreparably breached….

    No. This is the nature historiography.

    What little I know about Himmler is that he was a puny, evil man who ran his own show outside the awareness of Hitler…

    No. Any objective reading of the history will lead to no other conclusion other than Hitler meant to exterminate the Jews, and other peoples, and that he was fully aware that his ideas on extermination were being carried out.

    Who killed them and why are questions that the doctrine of the holocaust does not permit to be answered in any way other than a prescribed narrative.
    You are insisting that one and only one version of WWII is correct and acceptable …
    No other history is accepted as handed down in the first cut.

    All of this is inaccurate.

    I have read a little on the history of the Civil War and Reconstruction. There are thousands of books on the subject; some even call it the War Between the States. There are thousands of points of view from historians and many disagreements. However, they all agree that there was a war.

    In short, iffen, and please try to allow this thought to percolate in your hi-IQ cerebellum

    If it is okay with you I would like to try and use my cerebral cortex. I started with a deficiency because I was one of the idiots who thought God said rain instead of brains and I took off running for shelter which of course caused me to end up at the back of the line. On top of beginning with an insufficient supply, I have apparently burned out some of the cells and connections through old age and too much of the Nectar of the Gods.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  200. @iffen

    Any objective reading of the history will lead to no other conclusion other than Hitler meant to exterminate the Jews, and other peoples, and that he was fully aware that his ideas on extermination were being carried out.

    I got a parking ticket once. I appeared before a magistrate to protest it: “I have a permit to park there, ” I asserted.

    The magistrate said, “Show me.”

    Show the evidence that “Hitler meant to exterminate the Jews, and other peoples, and that he was fully aware that his ideas on extermination were being carried out.”

    Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs.

    • Replies: @iffen
  201. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I have a reasonable layman’s understanding of the structural changes. However, competition from illegals for the remaining blue collar jobs is devastating which does not take away from the fact that the total of the blue collar opportunities are dwindling. Neither should be minimized. In fact, it is a political canard to deflect attention from the illegals by emphasizing the structural changes.

  202. iffen says:
    @helena

    We will have to disagree on the caliber of the research.

    Also, if you were in the US you could see first hand what is going on.

    It is a full court press, no holds barred campaign against Trump.

    It is working. It is directed at educated white women. They are frightened of and do not like to think about Nazis and racists.

    Excellent focal point to see who is on which “side.” The only point in my lifetime that comes close is the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights Movement.

    • Replies: @helena
  203. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    In closing I will say that you will have to read your history and I will read mine.

    I challenge you and the “official” history.

    Hitler and the Holocaust were not extraordinary, both were ordinary.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  204. helena says:
    @iffen

    “We will have to disagree on the caliber of the research.”

    Why so?

    #202

    “I am not going to try to cut and paste and refute each of your claims.”

    Ay, there’s the rub.

    Re. SC’s comment ” A complete, true, and objective understanding”,
    I’d argue that a minimum standard is the teasing-out of rational evidence-based, and if neccessary competing or alternative, interpretations. Many episodes in history are revisited by new generations of scholars, in light of new methodologies/evidence/academic focus.

    btw, who runs the 3 and 4 star hotels? :)

    • Replies: @RobinG
  205. @iffen

    You don’t get to weasel out of the argument, iffen.

    “Extraordinary” applies to the claim, not to the alleged event, which, incidentally, you yourself implied was extraordinary, else why the Capital H?

    Hitler and the Holocaust were not extraordinary, both were ordinary.

    Which holocaust are you talking about?

    Note the capital H.

    History is not something pulled out of thin air; it requires proof, based on soundly sourced facts analyzed logically.

    You can’t offer such proof despite the fact that you and a gaggle of Jews and their bought-off or blackmailed gentile toadies killed and tortured and defrauded thousands of good people who DID have the proof, the facts and the logic to support their case.

    Jews punish anyone who tells a story that differs from the story that Jews decree but cannot prove; you are the evidence.
    They kill and impoverish and torture and blackmail and ruin lives, careers and reputations to sustain the lies they concocted to cover up the foulest acts the world has known that they committed in service to the zionist project.

    It is requiring great restraint to not damn you and other psychopaths like you to the foulest pits. You and your kind brought about misery and death to millions.

    You don’t get to shuffle away with a little bit of self-deprecating humor, iffen; you’re a disgusting excuse for a human being and a danger to civilized society.

    You can’t prove your claim, so you weasel; you bobble like brain-damaged Hillary. Your statements are lies. Lies like yours have cost the German people, the Palestinian people, the Russian and Polish people and the American and Iranian people hundreds of thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

    What do you get out of it, iffen? What huge imago made your psychopathic god?

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @iffen
    , @iffen
  206. @SolontoCroesus

    Phil — please delete my comment @ 208, as well as this one.

    anger got the best of me. apologies

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @Sam Shama
  207. Reading this comment thread inspires me to pen a new hypothesis regarding the evolution of threads. To wit:

    For any comment thread on Unz.com that runs longer than 100 comments, no reader beginning at the 101st comment will be able to determine therefrom what the original post was about. If the OP mentions x, the 101st comment will be part of an argument about the holocaust (for all real values of x).

    The theory can be construed as a modified Turing Test for tribal activity. Holocaust debates are political, not scholarly, in nature. They are invariably begun by easily baited revisionists and perpetuated by pro-narrative shills.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @helena
    , @iffen
  208. @Intelligent Dasein

    They are invariably begun by easily baited revisionists and perpetuated by pro-narrative shills.

    out of the box the theory is topsy-turvy:

    “Pro-narrative shills” initiated mention of holocaust (that is, used the word holocaust, referring to the new religion of Jews, in a comment) — specifically, Wiz of Oz at #102.

    Not until #140 did “easily baited revisionists” enter the fray.

    Points for trying but no soup for you.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  209. @SolontoCroesus

    PS Should you have a spare moment after refining your Turing Test, perhaps you can devise a database of books, movies, essays, conferences, institutions and government spending to reinforce the “pro-narrative”, vs. the same on the revisionist side.

    Then you might theorize why the “pro-narrative” cohort feels compelled to perpetually reinforce a 70+ year old historic event when, after all, we know with a metaphysical certainty that

    ” Any objective reading of the history will lead to no other conclusion other than Hitler meant to exterminate the Jews, and other peoples, and that he was fully aware that his ideas on extermination were being carried out.” (per iffen @ 202 http://www.unz.com/article/neocon-like-groupthink-dominates-both-conventions/#comment-1519789

    Finally, perhaps you will find it useful to speculate whether the overwhelming amount of material produced by the “pro-narrative” camp should remain unanswered by “baited revisionists,” and the implications for an accurate understanding of history upon which to make policy decisions should “revisionists” fail to- or refuse to- — or be frightened off from- taking the “bait.”

  210. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I shouldn’t worry about losing one’s temper; if you recall I unleashed on your post back in March [I believe generous imbibement from the previous evening had something to do with it] . Shit happens, to use an Americanism I quite like.

    P.S. started Shirer

  211. helena says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    and then there’s the one about how after 200 comments some internet nerd wades in with some whacky internet nerdy theory

    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @iffen
  212. RobinG says:
    @helena

    My dear Miss Helena,

    We will have to disagree on more than that. I submit to you that There is NO RESEARCH going on here, whatsoever. This, of course, depends on your definition of ‘research.’ In the strictest sense, internet search does not equal research. Books aren’t much better. Are they peer reviewed? And if S2C thinks all the peers are corrupted, there’s no end to it. Just swirling arguments.

    Since S2C likes stories, here’s one.
    Two years ago, some of my neighbors discovered the presence of Black Snakes in the hood. (Newcomers, apparently. The neighbors, that is.) One woman asked, was it possible that the snake in her yard was the same snake visiting her friend, some blocks away. So I said, yes, and posted info and links to studies on the range of Black Snakes. She thanked me for my ‘research’. I replied (as politely as necessary) that the actual research was carried out by a university team who tagged and observed a group of Black Snakes over a period of months. I had merely reported it. I hope the woman understood the difference.

    About the trial, insinuations were made (by S2C) about the character of Evans. It would be interesting to know whether other scholars have confirmed Evans opinion. Is this just Evans-said v. Irving-said, or did anyone else go to the original papers cited by Evans and verify that Irving mistranslated or misrepresented them? And how significant were these misrepresentations?

    I don’t follow this stuff, but maybe someone can tell us if it came out at the trial.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @helena
  213. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    It is requiring great restraint to not damn you and other psychopaths like you to the foulest pits. You and your kind brought about misery and death to millions.

    You don’t get to shuffle away with a little bit of self-deprecating humor, iffen; you’re a disgusting excuse for a human being and a danger to civilized society.

    Don’t sugar coat it; tell me what you really think.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  214. iffen says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    For any comment thread on Unz.com

    Regardless of the article’s subject matter, at some point, sometimes with the first comment as with this article, The Jews What Done It will be the comment.

  215. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    [Two years ago, some of my neighbors discovered the presence of Black Snakes in the hood.]

    I had to smile from ear to ear!

  216. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Christian Americans are too afraid to defy Jews.
    This applies to both Democrats and Republicans.
    99% of Christians are thus cowards.

    • Replies: @helena
  217. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I am not fond of illegals and the social turbulence that results from indiscriminate entry

    What does this mean, Sam? Are you opposed to massive illegal immigration or not?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  218. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Priss Factor

    Christians are afraid of Jews. This is astounding when one thinks of it.
    Our dear USA has been taken over due to Christian cowardice.

  219. iffen says:
    @helena

    Helena,

    I have another comment that I am working on directed to you.

    In the interim, I think I have realized something of importance, the recognition of a shibboleth, as it were.

    Nazis do not have a sense of humor.

  220. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Without a doubt; I think the wall should be built, a physical and iconic reminder that our borders and laws are not to be trifled with.

    • Replies: @iffen
  221. @iffen

    Don’t sugar coat it; tell me what you really think.

    A friend and I attended an event where Milton Viorst discussed his book on the history of zionism. Viorst was quite critical of Jabotinsky and revisionist zionism, which is the version of zionism practiced by Netanyahu and much of Israel’s governing body; through their heavy-handed influence over Israeli society, many Israelis reflexively view Jabotinsky zionism as the prevailing ideology that defines the Jewish state.

    It’s fair to say that the majority of the SRO audience at Viorst’s talk was Jewish. It’s equally fair to say that most of the members of the audience agreed that Israel is out of control and that they are opposed to the Jabotinsky-inflected actions that Israel has been taking for so many years. Most members agreed with the statement my friend made from the floor, that cutting off USA financial support to Israel is one important way to change Israel’s behavior.

    Viorst summed up the evening’s conversation and included this statement: “Of course the Jewish psyche is affected by the experience of persecution and the holocaust.”

    And with that get-out-of-jail-free card in play, nothing will change. The good people in the audience are appalled at Israel’s behavior; are eager for that behavior to change; were concerned enough to attend the event and voice their agreement and concern. But nothing will change because of The Capital Haich Holocaust.

    Afterwards, as my friend and I discussed the event, Friend told me, as others have before (and likely will ad infinitum) that attacking the holocaust narrative is a losing proposition; it’s too sensitive; it only makes enemies and raises hackles. And of course that’s all true, and valid.

    My counter-argument is that the pillar that props up the Jabotinskyite ideology is holocaustism. No change will come about until the foundations are quaked. Someone’s gotta do it.

    I firmly believe that most Jewish people, like the good Jewish people at Viorst’s talk, have been psychologically abused in much the same way as non-Jews are browbeaten with accusations of antisemitism or of holocaust denial. We have all been lied to — Dana Karon, the young girl in the Peter Beinart video linked earlier, is an eye-opener, a crack in the foundation.

    One major difference is that Jewish people are free to speak, write, publish, and generate income, sometimes very large amounts of income, by publishing etc. what I consider to be bogus and tendentious renderings of the history of WWII etc., while “revisionists” are shut out of major publishing houses, major media and platforms of influence; or are ostracized, such as Walt and Mearsheimer, who wrote knowing that their careers would be truncated; or who are actually fined and imprisoned for doing what they believe is a patriotic duty. This is a form of terrorism, and if it does not stop through forceful arguments such as this forum allows, and through other political and legislative means, it will be ended by violence. The status quo is not sustainable.

    The American people, especially my generation, Baby Boomers who did not endure the suffering and hard times our parents did but who lived well on their efforts — for good or ill — have an obligation to their parents, themselves, their children, and their nation to tell the truth, to quake the foundations that obscure the truth of how, and at what cost, their era of prosperity came about.

    Just as surely as Jewish people must confront the reality of what Jewish leaders did to create the zionist-Jewish state, we non-Jewish Americans have got to confront the actions our government took and is taking, that were crimes against humanity, like the firebombing of Germany and Japan, and the continued destruction of other people’s economies, political systems, cultures and lives.

    As for you, iffen, too much sugar is bad for your teeth.
    Leave the gun AND the cannoli.

    • Replies: @Art
  222. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I, as well, although I worry about the ocelots.

    • Replies: @helena
  223. Just read a few reviews of Alon Gratch’s “The Israeli Mind: How the Israeli National Character Shapes our World,” then the introductory chapter.

    After recounting tales from his (non-religious) son’s Bar Mitzvah, Gratch then introduces himself as an Israel-born clinical psychologist who practices in USA, where he married and raised his children. He recounts a

    “most vivid childhood memory” — he was in fourth grade in Jerusalem in 1967 when ” a loud siren sounded. It was . . . the continuous ascending and descending siren signaling war. I . . .looked around and [with others around me] decided it was a false alarm or just another drill. . . . But when I arrived at school, it turned out to have been the real thing. War was coming . . . kids were picked up by their parents . . . We started hearing explosions. Loud booms of mortar rounds were punctuated by more distant echoes from semiautomatic guns. My father . . .picked me up and . . .we [went] to the corner grocery store [and] bought food for several days. Only then did my father and I join our neighbors in the small shelter of our five-story apartment building . . . whose entrance had only recently been secured . . .with a wall of sandbags.”

    Gratch writes about spending the night in the shelter, then reviews the discussion that took place the next morning as the family was deciding on their next move. Young Alon suggested,

    ” “Why don’t we just stay here?” I asked.
    “What, are you scared?” replied my mother.”

    Here’s what’s so amusing about Gratch’s tale:

    Jeff Gates is a lawyer who worked for the US Senate through much of the 1980s. He worked with and practiced law with Russell Long and was an advisor to the Ronald Reagan administration. Through a curious series of events, Gates committed over 12 years of his life to studying what he calls a “multi-generational criminal network” that runs Israel. In this RedIce Radio interview Gates recounts how Lyndon Johnson’s speechwriter, Harry MacPherson, was also in Israel on that day in June, 1967 when a “war broke out.”

    “MacPherson flew into Tel Aviv, and the airport lights were off. He thought it curious. . . . He got a call from the [US] ambassador at 4:00 am the next morning and he said the war had started. . . .The ambassador said, “I’m going to pick you up,” and they immediately went to see Abba Eban . . . the ambassador, and then went to see the head of Israeli intelligence.

    MacPherson asked, “What — did the Egyptians come across the border?” And the guy changed the subject. He asked again and again they changed the subject.
    Then air raid sirens began to wail, and he said, “Do you think we should go into the air raid shelter?”
    And this head of Israeli intelligence looked at his watch and he said, “That won’t be necessary.”

    Harry and the ambassador looked at each other and they said, my god, this was a put-up job. They set up this attack on Egypt and took out their air force in about an hour-and-a-half. There was no attack on Israel.

    I tell you that story because [the incident] was meant to inject fear and insecurity into the Israeli population itself.”

    My quick overview of Alon Gratch’s book brought to mind one of the key pieces of information from Occupation of the American Mind

    In 1982, Israel’s leadership gathered leading public relations experts from around the world to create a process for dealing with the negative press such as the criticisms that pummeled Israel regarding Israel’s assault and atrocities in Lebanon. The methods developed in 1982 are much the same today; Frank Luntz defines many of the guidelines in a system of “displacing facts with what the Mark can be induced to believe is true.”

    I think Gratch is a tool of that same Israeli ministry. His book is pure propaganda — shaping of the cognitive map to suit the needs of a criminal gang that masquerades as the Jewish state.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  224. RobinG says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    You are very harsh. I know you don’t want to be anybody’s dupe, but “pure propaganda” is a little severe. I haven’t read the book, but I’ve met Gratch, at a talk he gave. He acknowledges the Nakba and Deir Yassin, and deplores Israel’s recent behavior. That’s what prompted him to write the book. He does try to explain the Israeli psychosis, largely, as you say, a product of being terrorized by their own government.

    The audience, 99% Jewish, asked how we (the US) could improve Israeli policy, etc. He opined that trying to tell them what to do was pointless because their oppositional natures would reject any advice and resist any pressure. He suggested that advocates of ending all US aid to Israel were on the right track, because standing alone might compel them to deal honestly with their neighbors.

    I know, you want more. So do I, but he’s not a complete bastard liar like Mark Regev. His talk left me somewhat optimistic.

    Tonight C-SPAN re-aired a (very objective, imo) discussion between serious scholars of Louis Brandeis. The whole thing is excellent, both his great contributions and deplorable failings. The part about Zionism begins at 52:57.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?410220-1/book-discussion-louis-d-brandeis

    Brandeis was a champion of free speech, saying it was not only the right to speak, but the RIGHT to HEAR. This is the tradition being nobly carried on by our generous benefactor, Ron Unz. Best of luck to him with his campaign!

  225. helena says:
    @Anonymous

    Thus ? Come on, my ancestors deserve better!

    From Middle English thus, thous, thos, from Old English þus ‎(“thus, in this way, as follows, in this manner, to this extent”), from Proto-Germanic *þus ‎(“so, thus”), perhaps originally from a variant of the instrumental form of this, related to Old English þȳs ‎(“by this, with this”), Old Saxon thius ‎(“by this, with this”). Cognate with Scots thus ‎(“thus”), North Frisian aldoz ‎(“thus”), West Frisian dus ‎(“thus”), Dutch dus ‎(“thus, so”), Low German sus ‎(“thus, hence”).

  226. helena says:
    @iffen

    I think we may have synchronised our brain cycles; I realised at the very same time that no one has found me amusing since I left GG in 1980!

    Are you worried about lumberjacks and Maasai warriors applying for Green Cards?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
    , @Wizard of Oz
  227. alexander says:
    @RobinG

    Great comment, Robin.

    Truly first rate.

    And, YES, a toast to the venerable RON UNZ for providing us with the insightful writers, thinkers,and scholars whose essays have been published in his review.

    And, like the fine Louis Brandeis, before him, and others, who understood the importance of “free speech”, has allowed for us all to engage in the conversation so that we may, each of us, have a chance to speak our mind, uncensored and without prejudice.

    Thank you, Mr. Unz, for reminding us , WE ARE A NATION OF FREE MEN , who will not all go down quietly into the night……

  228. iffen says:
    @helena

    Since most of my understanding of history comes from Hollywood, I will admit that my knowledge of the Maasai comes via PBS and Out of Africa. Based on this, my worry about the Maasai would be whether they would accept us as an ally.

  229. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I give you points and unlimited trips to the soup bar for pouncing on this faulty construction by me; you are fully justified.

    FWIW, in that I have the impression that you do not take what I write at face value, I will correct my comment.

    Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs.

    The statement that Hitler was the master behind the Holocaust is not extraordinary and does not require extraordinary proofs. The statement is ordinary and only requires ordinary proofs.
    The claim that the Holocaust is entitled to its designation as the Holocaust is extraordinary and does require extraordinary proofs to make the case that it is unique among all the other genocides, past and present.

    Hitler was an ordinary politician. The particular confluence of technology, German military prowess, geo-political machinations of the European nations, plus all other factors known and unknown, gave rise to Hitler. He was the right man at the right time.

    Germans were ordinary, as were all of the other ethnic groups that succumbed to Nazism. I do not set the Nazis apart from ordinary people; it could have happened, and does happen, to any ethnic group, including Americans.

    As to weaseling and shuffling, you should read the trial transcripts of the Irving trial. I didn’t know that there were that many ways to say, “I wrote (said) that, but that’s not what I meant.” I can’t fault him though, if someone was trying to put me in jail I would wiggle like a one-legged salamander on July asphalt. I do not care for those European and Canadian “hate” speech laws. Great to live where we have the First Amendment; although some say we will get there in the future.

    You seem to have a lot of anger. I do as well. I just think you are making a mistake in making Jews the target.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  230. @RobinG

    oh my dear dear RobinG.
    You are breaking my heart.

    I agree on one aspect of your comment: Ron Unz is generous in hosting this platform celebrating the right to speak and to hear freely.

    I fear you have been deluded if you think Louis Brandeis supported those positions in practice.

    As Gilad Atzmon explained in The Wandering Who, and as Benjamin Netanyahu has affirmed several times from a podium in the capital of the American people, the Esther story is the template for zionism. Louis Brandeis is Mordechai.

    A major project involving expensive rented equipment must be completed today which precludes me from sucking up far more of the pixels that Mr. Unz provides than I am entitled to, but hero worship of Louis Brandeis must be nipped in the bud, and the dissonances between Jeffrey Rosen’s hagiography of Brandeis and the contents of Alon Gratch’s work of hasbara — yes, RobinG, I insist: see The Occupation of the American Mind ) — apparently need to made manifest in simple words and primary colors. Will do, but later.

    (geokat62, wherever you are: is there space in your sabbatical hideaway? It’s getting harder and harder to function when one’s colleagues in advocacy for Baseball, Motherhood and Apple Pie are distracted by 76 shiny trombones (ram’s horns?) and sounding cymbals.)

    PS. Listening to our brave and bold CiC inform the exceptional American people, presumably from a platform in a city on a hill, of the numbers of people our brave nation’s trained killers are killing. YEAH America! KILL! KILL! KILL!

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  231. @iffen

    You seem to have a lot of anger. I do as well.

    Damn right I have a lot of anger. There’s a lot to be angry about.
    I learned from Harriet Goldhor Lerner that anger is an essential motivating force that requires wise management and deployment.

    I just think you are making a mistake in making Jews the target.

    I’ll stop making Jews the target when Jews stop making Palestinians and Iranians the target. Deal?

    nb. Jews is in italics because I think that I — or at least I try to — identify specific Jewish (and non-Jewish) leaders and agents who, in my view, have exploited and debased the American Constitutional system for their own nefarious purposes.
    To RobinG: Louis Brandeis was chief among those evildoers.

    • Replies: @iffen
  232. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    nb. Jews is in italics because I think that I — or at least I try to — identify specific Jewish

    Commendable! A journey of a thousands steps …

  233. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    [.....It’s getting harder and harder to function when one’s colleagues in advocacy for Baseball, Motherhood and Apple Pie are distracted by 76 shiny trombones (ram’s horns?) and sounding cymbals.]

    geokat62 is missed on these pages while he’s on sabbatical; but surely you jest about the trombones disturbing your peace, when all I hear are the rousing waves of the Horst-Wessel-Lied in these parts.

  234. helena says:
    @iffen

    His insults were uncalled for. I’d love to chat but I’m guessing the orange box may mean I shouldn’t. I see it more like a lecture and when the lecturer leaves, some of the audience hang around discussing the lecture and stuff. But that’s just me. But answer me this – someone calls into a radio discussion about ‘Jeremy Corbyn appointing Shami Chakrabhati (sp) to the House of Lords is an act of gross anti-Semitism – discuss’, and says, ‘It’s ridiculous, no one can mention Israel without being called anti-Semitic’. Then another person calls and says, ‘I’m not Jewish but I live in a Jewish area and I felt I had to call in to say that the previous caller has just offended millions of Jews all round the world’. Do you understand why millions of Jews all round the world should be offended if British people discuss Israel?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @iffen
  235. Sam Shama says:
    @helena

    Quid pro quo and outright purchase has been working splendidly for the Right Honourable Peers hasn’t it? So the 2nd caller’s attitude won’t do at all.

    And millions of Jews weren’t offended, only the tossers.

    • Replies: @helena
  236. Art says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    It’s fair to say that the majority of the SRO audience at Viorst’s talk was Jewish. It’s equally fair to say that most of the members of the audience agreed that Israel is out of control and that they are opposed to the Jabotinsky-inflected actions that Israel has been taking for so many years.

    Back to the facts. Let’s face it – 95% of US Jews would love to see Palestine disappear. Some at high noon – most at midnight.

    Hmm – let’s see – how many elected Jews did NOT show up for Netanyahu’s congress speech?

    p.s. When it happens it will be ugly. What these Jews are edgy about is what will happen to them when it transpires.

  237. iffen says:
    @helena

    I’d love to chat but I’m guessing the orange box may mean I shouldn’t. I see it more like a lecture and when the lecturer leaves, some of the audience hang around discussing the lecture and stuff.

    Don’t always follow the rules, Helena. Let your inner Yamnaya out sometimes; make the rules.

    • Replies: @helena
  238. iffen says:

    This is a most awkward sichayshun.

    Motherhood check 

    Baseball check

    Apple Pie check

    Reliance on trusted comrade check

    Love and patriotism for America check

    Hate for elites that are destroying America check

    Oh my. I am conflicted enough already without having to deal with this.

    • LOL: Sam Shama
  239. Art says:
    @RobinG

    You are very harsh. I know you don’t want to be anybody’s dupe, but “pure propaganda” is a little severe. I haven’t read the book, but I’ve met Gratch, at a talk he gave. He acknowledges the Nakba and Deir Yassin, and deplores Israel’s recent behavior.

    RobinG,

    By all means let’s not get “severe.” I am so grateful that Gratch acknowledges the Nakba and Deir Yassin. We must be impressed by his generosity towards the unmentionables.

    If we get too “server” – our nice little debating society may not function so well. Little Sammie, Iffy, and Wizy may get mad at us and pick up their marbles and not play.

    Just stay away from the unmentionable words like Palestine, apartheid, summery killing, Palestinian chairs, bulldozers, starvation diet of Gaza, extra – and we can quite pleasantly argue.

    After all, those words make good people mad – and we cannot have that in our upper level polite courteous debating society can we?

    Art

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  240. helena says:
    @Sam Shama

    Glad you think so but I do worry that our ‘leaders’ are engaging in 2-finger politics between themselves. Has anyone really taken any notice of what the 17million are saying?

  241. helena says:
    @iffen

    You certainly know where my funny bone is. But seriously, you were right first time, humour isn’t very widespread in the north. I could spend a whole day opening and closing a scandinavian sliding door and just enjoying the rhythm of the precision engineering but have you ever seen a swedish midsummer party? it comes across a bit like a kiddies party but with 40% pop. I sometimes wonder if the famed english satire of Georgian days may have been driven by Jewish journalists – the je suis charlie of its day. just a thought.

    • Replies: @iffen
  242. iffen says:
    @helena

    I have pursued you to the exit and will now let you go. :)

    I have put everything in this post.

    This link is very informative; I have read most of it.

    http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-00-00.html

    This is the link to the website. It has a lot of information. If you click on David Irving, one of the options will be the complete transcripts of the trial. I have read very little, court transcripts are a heavy slog.

    http://www.nizkor.org/

    If you go to Amazon and look at Denying the Holocaust by Deb Lipstadt, the look inside feature will let you read her reasoning as to why she does not debate Holocaust deniers.

    This is a site at Emory, I guess it is hers. It has a lot of information, point by point.

    http://www.hdot.org/en/denial/index.html

    This Jewish Virtual Library is very informative.

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/indexrestore.html

    Now you may have visited some of these sites already, plus others. My point is that it is not logical to cut and paste a lot of information that a person has already seen and has rejected.

    ‘It’s ridiculous, no one can mention Israel without being called anti-Semitic’.

    This is true to a certain extent. It is true that there is a huge dedicated group out there that takes as its mission the defense of Israel and who attack its critics without regard to the legitimacy of the question or validity of the facts. The other part (and this is my raisin date with regard to anti-Semitism) when we drill down into the thinking of many of the critics of Israel, we do, in fact, find some anti-Semites. If we could shuck the 88s, then we could talk about dual loyalty, hypocrisy with regard to immigration, foreign aid that is so out of proportion to the interests of our countries that it boggles the mind, the oppression of the Palestinians within Israel and all of the pertinent subject areas.

    I don’t think Trump’s campaign will be too much affected.

    SEAN TRENDE, REALCLEARPOLITICS: You have to remember that non-Hispanic whites are going to be about 71% of the electorate — that is a lot of people. That’s the game plan [for Trump], to try to get that up from Romney’s 59% to 61-62%. If he does that, especially in the Great Lakes states, it will be good enough for him to win…

    LA Times August 8
    College-educated whites in the state favored Clinton 58%-28% while whites with a high school degree or less favored Trump 53%-31%. The latest NBC/Wall Street Journal survey shows a similar, albeit smaller, gap nationwide. College-educated whites favored Clinton by seven points in that poll. A trade-off in which Republicans gain among blue-collar whites but lose ground with white college graduates is exactly what Republican strategists have feared would happen with Trump.

    You can pay attention to Kirkpatrick’s articles here at UR, he is targeted in on the fact that the RATS that he has identified are going to cost Trump the election.

    I don’t know why Unz tries to demonstrate the perfidy of the media with ancient history where the facts are dim and contested, he already has the moon landing was on a Hollywood lot group convinced. The blatant dishonesty in this election is playing out right in front of us and can be clearly demonstrated for those that might be persuaded.

    There are only a few remaining journalists who make a stab at objectivity when it comes to Trump. That professional standard has been cast aside; they don’t even try to fake it anymore.

    The power of the MSM is right here, right now.

    It started very early with the media created Trump theme. That gave way to: why doesn’t the media do something about Trump? Why doesn’t the media stop Trump? Obviously they were unable to stop him.

    Now we have NPR with its 10 minutes of Trump hate every hour on the hour. Every MSM outlet is in full-time all-out war against Trump.

    There are one thousand Puerto Ricans moving to Florida each week. Trump cannot win without taking Florida. The democrats are in wartime survival mode to register every one of them before November. They are so smart and zealous. Sometimes it makes me want to go back to the Dark Side just to be on the winning side.

  243. Sam Shama says:
    @Art

    Art/S2c,RobinG, Iffen
    You know our thoughts, positions and attitudes towards most things evolve. So here is a barebones recounting of some of my positions, written in plain prose, as amply as I can muster in short order:

    1. I believe what was done to the Palestinians, el naqba, deir yassin, 1967 trick war, ongoing appropriation of Palestinian lands, are all deplorable acts viewed from a place of pure morals.

    2. I am not exclusively driven by pure morals; there is reason supplemented by the much longer arc of human experience which tells me that people who live their lives according to just a set of morals die a lonely death. Human behaviour is to be observed by humans, improved upon for the greater good; yet in the words of Nicola Tesla, Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more

    3. Humans have taken, conceded, re-taken lands from the farthest eastern corner to the ends of the west, from the northern tip to the southern bottom, since we set foot on this blue planet. The Japanese from the Ainu, The Han on their southern expansion on the baiyue, the Indo aryans on the aboriginals, the Arabs on the Persians, The Persians on the Armenians, The Romans on Carthage and just about everybody else in the neighbourhood, the Turks on the eastern Roman empire, The British on, well, the entire known and new world, America arguably controls all that it fancies, Germans, Dutch, Belgians, Italians, French, the list arcs back upon itself. So yes, I deplore what Israel is doing and I want a solution; but tell me why I should view this taking of land by Israel as an act to be divorced from the uninterrupted theme of our basic human parable? My thoughts are similar to those of a commenter Moshe [ an ordained rabbi, who is now an atheist] I spoke with on these pages a week or so back. I feel that Israel is in a position as an advanced economy, to offer much to the Palestinians. This has to be done without further delay and in a way that offers them all the benefits and duties that come with citizenship. Its difficult but achievable and I work in ways to influence this outcome to the extent of my abilities. However, let me be clear about one thing: the Palestinian leadership has very little interest in such an outcome; the game that Israel has played has also created a deep bench of parasitic, inept and entirely clueless leadership over the decades, one which will make a horrid hash of things [and they know it] were the reins of state handed to them.

    to be contd.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Art
  244. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    concatenating

    I knew this word, but have never thought to use it.

    It is a perfect description of what these 88s do.

    A writing by a Jew in the 17th century, a statement by a Zionist from the 1940′s, a youtube from last month, a found “lost” document, a quote from the Talmud, etc. Concatenate all of it and voilà: the Jewspiracy and matrix in all its glory.

    • Replies: @alexander
  245. helena says:

    @Iffen and Sam
    Powerful stuff boys. I’m looking after my nontegenarian mum for a few days so will contemplate and/or deconcatenate later. A* research efforts and English language skills.

  246. alexander says:
    @iffen

    I hate to say it, Iffen.

    but I would have to agree with you.

    I think a lot of the Cut and Paste revisionism inherent in some of the Holocaust denial theorists , does not really cut the mustard.

    I am not much of a fan of it.

    If you contrast two “critics” of Israel and their writings, ….say….Norman Finkelstein and (our own) S2C, you have a profound break in their “revisionism” when it comes to the Holocaust.

    Norman Finkelstein doesn’t DENY the Holocaust and never did.His mother was, in fact, a survivor of it……His critique is not of its historic fact but of the industry that exploits and demeans it.

    ..S2C , on the other hand, DOES deny it and makes every attempt to “concatenate” anecdotal snippets from the pages of the past to , in effect, repaint Hitler as a hero and the Nazi party as having fought ……but lost…..the good fight.

    Finkelstein never does this.

    I do recognize two scholars, whose research and writings have been accurately “critical” of Israel, (the late)Tony Judt and Norman Finkelstein , both of whom have contributed to our present understanding of Israel, warts and all.

    It was Norman Finkelsteins scholarship that was definitive in pulling back the curtain on the Nakba, and concretizing that reality as one of the facts of history.

    Before him, (and perhaps the early Benny Morris) the Nakba was the most DENIED ethnic cleansing in the entire western world.

    Which does make very strange bedfellows of both Israeli “Nakba “deniers, and Your 88 Neo Nazi “Holocaust”deniers.

    Doesn’t it ?

    Furthermore it underscores the hypocrisy at the heart of the vaunted Jewish “authoritas “whose “collective” had become the supreme arbiter of “authentic” moral and ethical consciousness, for much of the western world.

    One cannot claim to ,justly, condemn the horror of the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Nazi Germany while patently DENY the horror of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from the new born state of Israel in 1948.

    The scaly truth is that if ANY acts of ethnic cleansing are EVIL…..then ALL acts of ethnic cleansing are EVIL…..Neither Nazi Germany nor a New Born Israeli state can escape it.

    The same can be said of LAND GRABBING or LEBENSRAUM (living space) ….

    One cannot rightly condemn Nazi Germany for its CENTRAL TENET of acquiring territory through force, on the one hand ,and wholly embrace (and applaud) Israel for its continuous theft of the Palestinian territories.

    Can one , Iffen ?

    Again, Iffen, it seems we find your hated 88′s and your (land grabbing) Israeli expansionists working from the exact same “conquer and take ” Nazi “hand book” .

    If it is an evil for any to do it…it is an evil for ALL to do it ?

    No?

    What are your thoughts on this, Iffen , I am curious to know ?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @helena
    , @schmenz
    , @RobinG
  247. iffen says:
    @alexander

    I hate to say it, Iffen.

    I hate to say it, alexander, but this is an excellent comment. Now I have to go back and read your earlier comments.

    Which does make very strange bedfellows of both Israeli “Nakba “deniers, and Your 88 Neo Nazi “Holocaust”deniers.
    Doesn’t it ?

    Certainly does.

    I do recognize two scholars, whose research and writings have been accurately “critical” of Israel, (the late)Tony Judt and Norman Finkelstein , both of whom have contributed to our present understanding of Israel, warts and all.

    Obvious demonstration that one can test the limits of criticizing Israel without resorting to anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. I just don’t get it, you can do one without basing it upon the other.

    One cannot claim to ,justly, condemn the horror of the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Nazi Germany while patently DENY the horror of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from the new born state of Israel in 1948.

    I do not equate the two. I had a similar exchange with another commenter on this. The Israelis are not trying to exterminate the Palestinians, not yet anyway, they are trying to push them aside and they completely disregard the human rights of the Palestinians.

    One cannot rightly condemn Nazi Germany for its CENTRAL TENET of acquiring territory through force, on the one hand ,and wholly embrace (and applaud) Israel for its continuous theft of the Palestinian territories.

    I actually do not fully embrace either of these.

    If it is an evil for any to do it…it is an evil for ALL to do it ?

    Just apply the same standard to everyone, don’t hold Israel to a different standard.

    • Replies: @alexander
  248. alexander says:
    @iffen

    Agreed.

    And I do.

    But , for the sake of an excellent and accurate accounting of history, a reading or re-reading of Hannah Arendts ” Eichmann in Jerusalem” would be well worth your effort.

    Adolf Eichmann, as fleshed out in the book, acted as, first and foremost, the chief “facilitator” of Nazi Germany’s desire to EXPEL……. not EXTERMINATE …..the “Juden” from the Fatherland…and make Germany “Judenrein”( clean of Jews).

    Most of his “career” was spent organizing the” transfer” and “deportation” of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Germany to where ever he could send them.

    Transfer, Iffen, ….NOT extermination,….. was the order of the day, and became a major undertaking in Germany at the time , transforming, in fact , into an industry all its own ….Adolf Eichmann was its proverbial” head of operations”…..

    The Holocaust, was never the Nazi’s FIRST solution…Iffen.. but horror of horrors… it did become its FINAL one .

    • Replies: @iffen
  249. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    1. I believe what was done to the Palestinians, el naqba, deir yassin, 1967 trick war, ongoing appropriation of Palestinian lands, are all deplorable acts viewed from a place of pure morals.

    2. I am not exclusively driven by pure morals; there is reason supplemented by the much longer arc of human experience which tells me that people who live their lives according to just a set of morals die a lonely death. Human behaviour is to be observed by humans, improved upon for the greater good; yet in the words of Nicola Tesla, Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more

    Sam,

    First – thanks for the straight forward comments.

    (Palestine) are all deplorable acts viewed from a place of pure morals.

    “Pure morals?” So if you view Palestine from some another viewpoint – then what is going on is Ok? That cannot be true. The litany of offences is long.

    I am not exclusively driven by pure morals; there is reason supplemented by the much longer arc of human experience which tells me that people who live their lives according to just a set of morals die a lonely death.

    Hmm – that is really pessimistic. I believe that there is a strain in Jew culture that is unduly pessimistic. This pessimism says the world is bad and will never be better. That human nature is what it is, selfish and corrupt. This pessimism is freeing.

    Christianity takes another approach. Christian culture on the other hand is hopeful – it does not promise paradise on Earth – it promises that by taking idealistic actions, that there is a possibility, that tomorrow will be better then today. Looking at the last 400 years it has a fair record of achievement. Clearly Christianity has NOT conquered humanity’s tribal nature.

    In my experience – it is the mean old bastards that are the ones that live long and die lonely.

    Tesla (a hero) is right – we are what we are – God gave us gonads and brains – both drive us forward – our brains can provide rational logical none harmful activities that follow our gonad desires.

    Art (more coming)

  250. iffen says:
    @alexander

    Thanks, I’ll put in my reading queue. I have seen that title recommended more than once.

  251. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    3. Humans have taken, conceded, re-taken lands from the farthest eastern corner to the ends of the west, from the northern tip to the southern bottom, since we set foot on this blue planet. …. …. …. So yes, I deplore what Israel is doing and I want a solution; but tell me why I should view this taking of land by Israel as an act to be divorced from the uninterrupted theme of our basic human parable? …. ….. ….. I feel that Israel is in a position as an advanced economy, to offer much to the Palestinians. This has to be done without further delay and in a way that offers them all the benefits and duties that come with citizenship. Its difficult but achievable and I work in ways to influence this outcome to the extent of my abilities. However, let me be clear about one thing: the Palestinian leadership has very little interest in such an outcome; the game that Israel has played has also created a deep bench of parasitic, inept and entirely clueless leadership over the decades, one which will make a horrid hash of things [and they know it] were the reins of state handed to them.

    Sam,

    I feel your pain. You Jews have lived under a rock for 2,000 years, all the while other tribes have done bad things to other tribes – now you get your chance to steal and kill and the Gentiles say NO.

    Sorry but things must get better – what was acceptable yesterday is not acceptable today. That is the only way humanity can grow. The mass of humanity is not ready to accept the wholesale theft of a land by another people. We want peace – there is no reason not to have peace.

    Think about it – each and every living Palestinian could be a millionaire if all the money spent on arms and war was used to pay for their loses and pain and suffering at the hands of Zionism. It could still happen today. Only Good Jew leadership can accomplish this.

    Palestinian leadership. Please let’s be realistic – the West Bank Palestinian leadership serves at the pleasure of the Israeli government. They do what they are told by the Jews. The Big Palestinians are toothless. It is the Big Jews who are the problem. Will a Good Jew ever become a Big Jew?

    Art

    • Replies: @Art
  252. helena says:
    @alexander

    “..S2C , on the other hand, DOES deny it and makes every attempt to “concatenate” anecdotal snippets from the pages of the past ”

    I haven’t read all his posts/comments but what I’ve understood some of his arguments to be are as follows:

    1. there was some sort of political engagement between the government and the Jewish community, or some of their elders, prior to outbreak of war. this seems to be born out by Ken Livingstone’s comments currently under inquiry, and also by a coin, is that correct?

    2. the term used to depict the historical event has a literal meaning that could, by definition, also be applied to events experienced by the aggressor

    3. events took place prior to outbreak of war that created the conditions for war but which are not remembered/studied

    I could be wrong.

    Any historical event should be available for study.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @RobinG
  253. schmenz says:
    @alexander

    “..S2C , on the other hand, DOES deny it and makes every attempt to “concatenate” anecdotal snippets from the pages of the past to , in effect, repaint Hitler as a hero and the Nazi party as having fought ……but lost…..the good fight.”

    With respect, Alexander, that statement is unjust. I don’t see that at all in his writings.

  254. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The eyes have it, Phil.

    Week or so ago, Erdogan’s eyes were Mephistophelian.

    This week’s Clinton photo — the eyes make him look demented, or reveal that he is demented.

    Great work choosing photos.

    Looking forward to tomorrow’s eye-on-events.

  255. alexander says:
    @helena

    S2C has made some fine comments, no doubt.

    Certainly his most recent desire to have people take a look at the documentary”The Closing of the American Mind” which was aired on the REAL NEWS about three months ago, mirrored my own opinion and recommendation (on UNZ ) when it first came out.

    Its an excellent documentary (do watch it)

    S2C and I also shared a similar “curiosity” on the proliferation of “mysterious” Junkets to Israel, offering free room , fine dining (and who knows what else) to a massive quantity of OUR Police Commissioners, Senators, Congressmen , Governors, Mayors and Fire Chiefs.

    It is downright bizarre…Isn’t it ?…..I mean, what other nation on earth transports OUR elected officials to their country for a two week sojourn…and why ?….What transpires?…..Any clue ?

    Many of these Junkets have occurred over the last two decades…and they continue through to today. There has been ZERO information disseminated to The American People as to what transpires when OUR representatives are over there….but if the overarching purpose was to rob US taxpayers of FIFTEEN TRILLION DOLLARS in fifteen years, fighting bogus wars against countries that never attacked us, one can count it as a SMASHING SUCCESS.

    I mean, what gives ?

    But, on the other hand, S2C has shown an almost hysterical rejection of the notion that the Nazi’s central tenet of “Lebensraum” ever existed, and he patently refuses to use the Moniker “Nazi” to describe Hitlers party or its totalitarian reign over Germany.

    Why not ?

    And….. he goes all freaky on me every time I make the comparison between Hitlers “Lebensraum” and King Bibi’s “land grabs”….like I trespassed over some sacred Third Reich “burial ground”, or something…..

    He constantly takes an almost “reflexive” defensive posture when anyone seems to reiterate the totalitarian dictatorship which defined the Nazi era.

    S2C has made some good arguments and substantiated them pretty well,….. But sorry, Holocaust denial ain’t one of them.

    Not in my book.

  256. RobinG says:
    @alexander

    YOU ARE SO WRONG, ALEXANDER.

    S2C never “denies” THE HOLOCAUST, merely asserts that it is one of numerous holocausts in human history.

    The very term “Holocaust denial” is a hasbara invention, designed to ridicule, marginalize, and ostracize. (Same idea as the term “Conspiracy Theory.”) Even the most ludicrous of the purported “denialists” do not “deny” that there was a holocaust, a targeting of European Jews in WWII.

    It’s very revealing that you made this allegation, since you’ve been following this thread long enough to know better. I no longer read your tiresome, wistful rhetorical questions, rambling posts that prolong inertia and encourage despair.

    Are you personally depressed? Some say depression is the opposite of anger. Anger is okay. Anger is far more useful than depression. If S2C channels the anger into ruffling some feathers, that’s better than endless whining.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @iffen
    , @iffen
  257. alexander says:
    @RobinG

    Wow !

    Pretty snappy , Robin ?.

    Hey, its a free country, read whomever you choose, Not my concern…

    But don’t start your “Holohoaxing” diatribes on me, I don’t buy it…. and please don’t presume to know how depressed I might or might not be…Shows quite a lot of gall for someone who allegedly has refused to read my posts…..

    Wouldn’t you say ?

  258. iffen says:
    @RobinG

    The very term “Holocaust denial” is a hasbara invention, designed to ridicule, marginalize, and ostracize.

    Now you are just trying to make the hasbara look good.

  259. iffen says:
    @RobinG

    Even the most ludicrous of the purported “denialists” do not “deny” that there was a holocaust, a targeting of European Jews in WWII.

    No one is interested in your holocaust denialists.

    The question at hand is whether one denies the Holocaust, if you do, then you are a Holocaust denialist. It’s fairly simple, really.

    • Replies: @helena
    , @Art
  260. @alexander

    He constantly takes an almost “reflexive” defensive posture when anyone seems to reiterate the totalitarian dictatorship which defined the Nazi era.

    I don’t think the German Third Reich was a totalitarian dictatorship (which is frequently used pejoratively, as I assume Alexander uses the term); rather, I think it was European history’s only successful embodiment of Machiavellian principles.

    Specifically, Machiavelli tutored the Prince that when the people have lost their virtu — their manly courage; their sense of communal commitment and loyalty and have fallen into decadence and corruption, first of all, Niccolo said, The situation is pretty dire; there may be no remedy. The only possibility Niccolo could discern (from his reading of Livy’s History and of his thorough knowledge of Roman history) was for a dictator to take control, for a timetemporariness was at the heart of the ancient Roman notion of a dictator.

    The dictator needed to be harsh, or to hire/employ someone to be harsh. Machiavelli tells the story of Orca, whom Cesare Borgia put in place to clean up the city of Romagna (I think I have these details right; working from memory: I lent my tattered copy of The Prince to someone who has apparently lost his virtu or my book). Orca killed a bunch of people whom he considered the hell-raisers in Romagna; the rest of the city started to settle down, and prosper: they no longer had to fear the threats and drag of ne’er do wells, and ya, they had the fear of the lord put in ‘em.
    Orca having done the dirty work to accomplish Borgia’s aims, Cesare killed Orca. He didn’t just kill him, he cut him in half & put the parts of his body in the town square. “See: I, your prince will protect you even from the (hyper-militarized police) strongmen who behaved so brutally.” I think that Hitler used Rohm and the Freikorps the way Borgia used Orca, and when the Freikorps had accomplished what Hitler needed them to accomplish, —

    [MORE]

    Die Strasse frei den braunen Bataillonen!
    Die Strasse frei dem Sturmabteilungsmann!

    he killed them. I also think it’s noteworthy that Hitler did some of the killing himself: Nietzsche mocked those leaders who “had the courage of the knife but not of the blood;” i.e. they were willing to send someone else to kill but did not have the courage to do that most unnatural, and soul-changing act, themselves.

    In short, Hitler reinvigorated in the German people their virtu.

    It was essential for Borgia to gather to himself the complete confidence of the people of Romagna; that’s one of Machiavelli’s core teachings: the Prince must have the full support of the people he rules. Gaining the support of the aristocrats and wealthy merchants is not a bad idea, but they will turn on you when the next better opportunity comes along. Without the support of the people, however, you’ve failed before you’ve moved into the Oval Office.

    Hitler had the support of the German people. He did not sugar-coat the sacrifices he called upon the German people to make, nor did he lie to them; he — and NSDAP members — Goering, Hjalmar Schacht, etc. — devised plans, kept to plan, and produced what they promised to produce. Y’all may not like hearing that, but it’s a fact; even Hitler’s enemies (which of course includes 99 44/100 percent of people who get their history from Hollywood, History Channel, or Hasbara Central as well as Unz’s own HAlexander, Hiffen I’m not mistaken) acknowledge that NSDAP did achieve unprecedented full employment and economic prosperity 1933 – 1940.


    Now back to your regularly scheduled food-fight.


    PS.

    LEBENSRAUM!!

    (sshhh — <strike) manifest destiny )

    PPS. Hitler was an admirer and imitator of Mussolini because he recognized that Mussolini had a firmer grasp of political theory than Hitler did. If certain neocons are sufficiently lubricated — say, to the point of recklessness but not falling-down drunk — they just might start to discuss Mussolini’s literary and journalistic career, and critique the influence certain of Mussolini’s essays had on Leo Strauss as well as on Vladimir Jabotinsky — young Vlad was particularly besotted with Il Duce; he especially admired the Italian leader’s muscularity. But in those neo — conversations, the word totalitarian is verboten; only plebeians, the intellectually uninitiated, use such coarse labels, don’t you know.

    • Replies: @alexander
  261. RobinG says:
    @helena

    While I haven’t read all of S2C’s posts either, your assessment seems quite correct. It’s pretty amusing how iffen and Alexander are sputtering at being caught out.

    The title A. was groping for is “The Occupation of the American Mind: Israel’s Public Relations War in the United States” It describes how the contemporary hasbara movement began in 1983, following Israel’s attack on Lebanon, when the Israelis realized the need to control American perceptions. The “Holocaust Industry” according to Finkelstein irrc, began in the 1960′s. There had obviously been PR and propaganda before that, but not to the same degree.

    official website – -

    http://occupationmovie.com/

    review at mondoweiss – -

    http://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/the-occupation-of-the-american-mind-documented/

    • Replies: @alexander
  262. alexander says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    No doubt about it, S2C .

    You are a big fan of Nazi Germany.

  263. helena says:
    @iffen

    “The question at hand is whether one denies the Holocaust, if you do, then you are a Holocaust denialist. ”

    Isn’t that what is being said – it’s not a question of denying historical events but of denying the prominence, and power, given to, or afforded, certain historical events in modern life and/or Contemporary Western Thought.

    Which is not at all “fairly simple, really.”

    • Replies: @iffen
  264. alexander says:
    @RobinG

    Interesting comment , RobinG.

    If you haven’t read all of S2C’s posts, how can you lay claim to his view on the Holocaust ?

    In one conversation I had with S2C, he insisted that the TRUE, REAL HOLOCAUST was not what was done to THE JEWS…but the firebombing of Dresden at the end of the war.

    I responded that there was NO SHORTAGE of mass slaughters during WWII, and I believed I mentioned the FORCED STARVATION of over TEN MILLION people in the Belarus regions , under Stalin.

    Horrible.

    • Replies: @iffen
  265. iffen says:
    @alexander

    Sincere apology to you, alexander, for implying that you were not a thinking person.

  266. iffen says:
    @helena

    denying the prominence, and power, given to, or afforded, certain historical events in modern life and/or Contemporary Western Thought.

    Yes

    “fairly simple, really.”

    Yes

  267. helena says:
    @alexander

    Why have you capitalised Moniker? Why is the word moniker better than accronym? Why do we have to invoke 19thC language for this particular topic – trope, canard, concatenate?

    The point to me is that societies – governments, opinion-formers, populist movements etc – determine how deaths are viewed. That’s what is at stake – who’s deaths get remembered, when, where, how, why and by whom.

    There’s a storm brewing today over making jokes about germans invading. But during the war the british did have policies and advice for what to do if civilians encountered german soldiers. That’s british history. Jewish people inherited an entire country after the war and if that country bans jokes about german soldiers that’s their perogative.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
  268. alexander says:

    Helena,

    There is no real reason I capitalized the word Moniker (oops, I just did it again)…and sure, the use of the word acronym would have worked just as well.

    I never “invoked” 19th century language, either.

    I never used the words “trope” or “canard”….and the word ” concatenate” was one which was being bandied about in earlier threads…I believe I placed it in quotation marks as a reference to its earlier use.

    The word “concatenate” is not one I use very frequently.

    And I agree with your point about “how deaths are viewed”

    It seems as though you are much more interested in engaging me in somewhat superfluous questions…. than in responding to the content of my comments.

    Is this true ?

    And if so, why?

  269. iffen says:
    @helena

    Since you scooted all of us to the door, went through it, and you are now taking back to us through the door:

    According to a new Monmouth University poll, college-educated white women prefer Clinton to Trump by 30 percentage points, 57 percent to 27 percent. (In 2012, Mitt Romney won this demographic by 6 percentage points, 52 percent to 46 percent.)

    Look at those %s.

    27% Trump vs

    46% sewer scum Romney

    • Replies: @iffen
  270. iffen says:
    @iffen

    God, it’s worse than I realized. I must have mentally blocked it.

    52% sewer scum Romney

  271. @alexander

    he patently refuses to use the Moniker “Nazi” to describe Hitlers party or its totalitarian reign over Germany.

    Why not ?

    For the same reason I never refer to Jews as kikes (or Kikes).

    • Replies: @iffen
  272. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    If you use the word kike, you will likely be suspected of prejudice against Jews.

    If you use the word, Nazi, you will be accused of using the word that 99.9% of people use when referring to the political group, lead by Hitler, that controlled Germany during WWII.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  273. Sam Shama says:
    @helena

    [ Why do we have to invoke 19thC language for this particular topic – trope, canard, concatenate?]

    Sorry to sound like Bernard [Yes Minister], but concatenate, peaks in it’s use, circa 2007:

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=7&case_insensitive=on&content=concatenate&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cconcatenate%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bconcatenate%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BConcatenate%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BCONCATENATE%3B%2Cc0

    not to put too fine a point on it of course.

    I really, really care little whether people deny the Holocaust in it’s entirety, accept it as one of the examples of sweeping democide, or anything in between. I remember, for it is rather close to me, and can’t be sanguine about future generations; nor whether it’s memory aids or hinders.

    My impression of S2C is that he is he is genuinely attempting to get others to see the truth of history. He reads a great deal of literature on the subject, but he also reads a great deal into it. To wit, his insistence that Jews over the millennia, are following – lock, step and barrel – a carefully laid plan which time-spans Egypt, Persia, Berlin, all the way to New York and Washington. We are like the Go’auld [ Stargate; I sheepishly confess my addiction to Sifi] ancestral memory fully intact, guides all our actions.

    I called it a bad case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. I could, were I in the grips of a dark mood, construct a similar fiction for the Italian Mafia. So, on balance, I rarely advocate anger as a curative.

    Therefore, concatenate seemed rather apt.

    • Replies: @iffen
  274. iffen says:

    I really, really care little whether people deny the Holocaust

    Choosing sides without regard to race, ethnicity, language(?), religion, clothing, tattoos, hair style, etc. requires divisors based upon thought. Thought is hidden and can only be inferred.

    Holocaust denial is a categorical signpost into the thinking; anti-Semite thinking.

    iffen’s side has no room for anti-Semites.

  275. helena says:

    @Alexander – I don’t think I’m trying to side step questions. But I do think the way the topic is talked about – the language of the discourse – is a reflection of the ideology within the discourse. I’m not looking to engage in debates about the particulars of wwii but I do think that others should be free to do so – possibly in/on a dedicated column to keep it away from other discussions.

    @Sam – I don’t know if you saw my much earlier comment about the word concatenate but I looked up the definition and learned that the word adds complexity to the word I generally use, conflate. Conflate just means mixture but concatenate specifically implies the ‘stringing together of disjointed elements’; so it is more precise. I assume your langauge comes from a legal profession? It’s top whack English and I find it difficult to understand but god bless you for keeping it extant. But I never heard trope or canard used except on the internet on this topic. Given my heritage and life experiences, I hear tripe and duck.

    I don’t know the bible well but I was in church every sunday till the age of 13 and I remember the main stories. How to explain them? There are several places in the words spoken in church that talk about Jews and Israel that amount to perceiving Jews as somehow superior. It’s a bit weird.

    Iran? Don’t know but I watched a documentary about the Silk Road not long ago and I think it was the first time I’ve seen ‘inside’ Persia/Iran – buildings and stuff. I was surprised by the extent and sophistication of it.

    I also saw a documentary about the history of the mafia outfit in ? forgotten. I think the deal was that it was started by an Italian man, two other Italian men and two Jewish men.

    @Iffen As I’ve said before, I socialised with Jewish people in my teens. Some of the boys used the word shiksa (sp) but it didn’t bother me because I was innocent of the danger of words in those days.

    I cannot help you fathom the American female mind. You have cowgirls and hockey mums and hos and potlatches and squirt g*ns.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
  276. iffen says:
    @helena

    I cannot help you fathom the American female mind.

    Not asking for the impossible. Besides, I have a few clues. :)

    Just trying to get you to see that what you said here:

    It’s a valid point. The same old argument about reform vs. revolution. On the other hand, having the calibre of research supplied by SalsatoCeasar is an opportunity worth embracing. I don’t think Trump’s campaign will be too much affected.

    is incorrect.

    iffen says:

    August 5, 2016 at 10:52 pm GMT • 100 Words SolontoCroesus

    why in the world should any American care one fig about antisemitism © ® ?

    to separate support for rational and nationalist liberal democracy from racism and WWII revisionist ideas. Any competent reading of the current presidential race will instruct one in the manner in which the MSM uses propaganda and innuendo to damage Trump by trying to connect him to all manner of racism and fascism. Ergo if there was a clean separation from and denunciation of racism and anti-Semitism, the American people might be able to take advantage of this last chance.

  277. Sam Shama says:
    @helena

    I did see your earlier post on it, and I regret summoning that blighted word! :)

    Your heritage and mine are concatenated some, I reckon, and I’ll take tripe and duck over trope and canard any old day, partial though I am to Frog cuisine. Not all of it mind you, only the classic variety, none of that new-fangled Perrier and a souffle.

    Oh, and that thing about shiksas. Well that’s an old jewish trick. Jews are a conflation of Old Testament and shiksa genes!

    • Replies: @iffen
  278. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Examples of canard in a sentence
    1
    The book repeats some of history’s oldest canards.
    2
    the widespread canard that every lawyer is dishonest

    Did You Know?

    In 16th-century France “vendre des canards à moitié” was a colorful way of saying “to fool” or “to cheat.” The French phrase means, literally, “to half-sell ducks.” No one now knows just what was meant by “to half-sell”; the proverb was probably based on some story widely known at the time, but the details have not survived. At any rate, the expression led to the use of “canard,” the French word for “duck,” with the meaning “a hoax” or “a fabrication.” English speakers adopted this “canard” in the mid-1800s.

    Iffen used it to mean that emphasizing structural changes in the economy discounts the harm done by illegal immigration. This could be malign, it could be a sleight of hand; look at the changes in manufacturing, don’t look at the illegal who has one of the last blue collar jobs available.

    Distraction.

    And to stay on topic:

    The Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II,[2] greater than Dresden,[25] Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events.

    1945: In the single deadliest air raid of World War II, 330 American B-29s rain incendiary bombs on Tokyo, touching off a firestorm that kills upwards of 100,000 people, burns a quarter of the city to the ground, and leaves a million homeless.

    Now, more than 60 years later, it seems we must lower our estimates. After four years’ work, an impressive commission of German historians this week filed its report on this issue, and it seems that even the lowest figure so far accepted may be an overestimate. Drawing on archival sources, many never previously consulted, on burial records and scientific findings — including street-by-street archaeological investigations — plus hundreds of eye-witness reports, the “Dresden Commission of Historians for the Ascertainment of the Number of Victims of the Air Raids on the City of Dresden on 13/14 February 1945” has provisionally estimated the likely death-toll at around 18,000 and definitely no more than 25,000.

    If one’s concern is to question the validity of Allied fire-bombing of cities, why pick Dresden?

    Why not pick Tokyo?

    Distraction.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Incitatus
    , @helena
  279. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Iffen,
    It was not my intention, not by a mile, to target your’s or alexander’s choice of words.. Je regrette sincerement d’avoir fait cette plaisanterie, je ne voulais en aucun te mettre dans une situation delicate, surtout en ce qui concerne le choix du mot ‘canard’

    I was simply doing a very U.K. sort of thing…..nostalgia, you know.

    Live and learn, history generally, and Dresden in particular in my case.

    • Replies: @iffen
  280. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Not worried about you targeting my choice of words.

    I have no fear of committing any kind of fox paw. :)

    I was targeting your choice of words because I see that argument used all the time and was worried that maybe that was the reason you were framing it the way you did.

    Note the use of could in my last comment.

    I fully accepted your explanation.

  281. Art says:
    @iffen

    The question at hand is whether one denies the Holocaust, if you do, then you are a Holocaust denialist. It’s fairly simple, really.

    So what – it is rational to deny that six million Jews were murdered by Germany in WWII.

    The so called “Holocaust” claims six million. That is a lie. The real number is one point five million. A horrible number indeed.

    Roughly 50,000,000 died in WWII – half of them civilians.

    We must grieve for them all – and do our best to NOT do it again.

    Of course the Jews have gone dark and used their deaths as an excuse for further killing – Shame shame!

    The Jews use their Six Million Lie to intimidate and terrorize people into allowing them to kill some more.

    Our little iffen is a Jew terrorist.

  282. Incitatus says:
    @iffen

    “If one’s concern is to question the validity of Allied fire-bombing of cities, why pick Dresden?”
    “Why not pick Tokyo?”

    Indeed. But why not pick Warsaw in August 1944 (150,000 to 200,000 civilians were killed: less than the 70,000-146,000 estimated killed at Hiroshima 6 Aug 1944)? Or reverse the tape. How about Warsaw September 1939 (20,000 – 25,000 civilians were killed by those poor, poor Nazis: about the same number those evil allies -who S2C claims planned the war and pushed St-Adolf into it -killed at Dresden in 1944)?

    Lest one feels too embarrassed by Allied ‘crimes’ against imperial Japan – what about the Japanese at Nanking (40,000-300,000 civilian deaths Dec 1937) or (to exact vengeance after the 18 Apr 1942 Doolittle raid) the Zhejaiang-Jiangxi campaign (May-Sep 1942: 250,000 Chinese civilians killed).

    S2C is a stickler on chronology. But he never mentions the invention of ariel “terror bombing” by those clever (poor victimized) Germans in January 1915. The zeppelins (which made 51 raids and dropped more than 5,000 bombs) augmented long-range “terror shelling” by Krupp monster guns (mostly aimed at Paris).

    S2C cites Jewish architect Eric Mendleson’s participation in weapons effects tests as proof FDR and Churchill conspired to force Germany into war as early as 1937 and planned to unleash “terror bombing” to force the poor innocent Germans into submission. The only problem: the US tests were held in 1943 (two years after St-Adolf declared war on the USA 11 Dec 1941). Six years prior to the US tests Nazi Germany didn’t bother to build a village to test their destructive weapons: they dispatched the Condor Legion to Spain to test-bomb venues like Guernica (killing up to 1650).

    SolontoCrœsus is a very tallented. I especially enjoyed his posts on this thread. He’s far more talented than me. But that doesn’t change facts (though he would have it so). His assertion Hitler didn’t know what (evil renegade) Himmler was doing is classic neo-nazi behavior, what Kershaw calls the ‘der Führer hat immer Recht! Wenn der Führer wusste, würden Köpfe rollen.’ behavior popular in Germany 1944-45. Thus poor Germans consoled themselves as their world dissolved . Their fate was much like the fates they inflicted on countless human beings they victimized without apology.

    There are two possibilities. SolontoCrœsus genuinely believes what he posts: evidence of Adolf Hitler/German innocence was suborned by people like Robert Wolfe, who enabled a Jewish conspiracy to rewrite the history of WW2 (omitting causal Jewish boycotts against against poor victim Germany and surpressing the evidential ‘chain of custody’). Yet S2C defends St-Adolf and Nazi Germany with evidence that doesn’t exist – he seeks to indict major historians on the basis of an imaginary vanished/surpressed chain of evidence.

    The second possibility is SolontoCrœsus is a mole who seeks to attract posters sympathetic to the Palestinians and hang revisionist WW2 history around their neck to discredit them (and the web site). He’s much more passionate (and explicit and consistent) in his advocacy for St-Adolf and those poor, poor Nazis than he is for Palestinians.

    My bet is on the second possibility.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @iffen
  283. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I called it a bad case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. I could, were I in the grips of a dark mood, construct a similar fiction

    There is ample material everywhere, even 16th century Mexico.

    The most powerful calpulli was that in the suburb known as Cueopan, where there lived the so-called long-distance merchants, the pochteca. These had a bad name among Mexica: they seemed to be “the greedy, the well-fed, the covetous, the niggardly . . . who coveted wealth”. But they were officially praised: “men who, leading the caravans of bearers, made the Mexican state great”.

  284. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    That is so interesting ,Incitatus.

    I suspected the EXACT SAME THING in my very first conversations with S2C about six months ago.

    Its a good bet .

  285. @iffen

    Actually, in modern usage the term Nazi is more likely to be used in the media to demonise people that the western powers seek to undermine or destroy. Hussain, Assad and Putin come instantly to mind but there are many others too.

    • Replies: @iffen
  286. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    I think you were right.

    I particularly admire S2C’s introduction (conflation/concatenate/whatever) of Machiavelli into his case (#266). Is one supposed to use Cesare Borgia (another of history’s consumate scum bags) to exonerate Hitler? Most high school students read Machiavelli in 9th or 10th grade. They get the fear is better than love bit. Then they grow up. Well, except for another Machiavelli sage:

    “Man is more inclined to do evil than to do good. So don’t fall for the liberal line that all people are the same. They are not. Societies with a majority of good people are rare, and are constantly threatened by the evil-minded world outside. Peace is NOT the normal condition of mankind, and moments of peace are invariably the result of war. Since we want peace, we must win the war. Since our enemies are inclined to do evil, we must win decisively and then impose virtue on their survivors…Don’t worry about how the world will judge your strategy. Just worry about winning…Strike decisively, get it over with. Don’t listen to your diplomats…You can lead by the force of high moral example. It has been done. But it’s risky, because people are fickle, and they will abandon you at the first sign of failure. Fear is much more reliable, and lasts longer. Once you show that you are capable of dealing out terrible punishment to your enemies, your power will be far greater.”

    This was penned by ‘freedom scholar’ Michael Ledeen in ‘Machiavelli on Our War,’ National Review Online, 25 September 2001. We all know what happened next.

    Voltaire had better words for this nonsense than I could ever aspire to:
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  287. helena says:
    @iffen

    “to half-sell ducks.”

    “The original crime would have to be recreated with some imagination: A marketplace. A shady, shifty-eyed con-man. He ostensibly offers a duck for your supper feast held in one hand, takes your ducats with his other hand, then suddenly turns and ducks off into the crowd.”

    https://e2f.com/5826/

    Anyway, I never meant this discussion to be about Salsa per se but about the freedom to discuss. But what I would say about Salsa is that, I think, he really does care about his heritage. I don’t think he’s trying to deliberately proliferate half-ducks, and he doesn’t duck out of a good discussion.

    And, I think he would prefer to talk about this definition: (same source):

    The other utility for this French word is in aeronautical engineering, going back to the dawn of powered flight. Most planes have a horizontal control surface on their tail: a tailplane. A few, though, have these control surfaces near their nose instead. Used to pitch the aircraft up or down, these forward control surfaces are known as canards.

  288. iffen says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Actually, in modern usage the term Nazi is more likely to be used in the media to demonise people

    True, and I push back against this as well as I can. That said, it does not refute the fact that there are, in fact, modern Nazis.

    My song and dance routine is to separate the “real” Nazis from the people unjustly accused.

  289. iffen says:
    @alexander

    Its a good bet .

    I would take this bet.

    I see nothing but sincerity. He does try to be persuasive, but who doesn’t.

  290. iffen says:
    @Incitatus

    Indeed. But why not pick

    True. If one wanted to be a generic humanitarian there are, unfortunately, an unlimited supply of massacres and genocides from which to choose for illustration and illumination.

    However, if one wants to write an apologia for the Holocaust, you would choose Dresden to try and show some sort of relativity.

    By the same measure, if you write one for the Rape of Nanking, you would choose Tokyo.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  291. @alexander

    @ Incitatus

    He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; flee him.
    He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him.
    He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him.
    He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him.

    buh-bye

  292. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    Incitatus, & Iffen

    many thanks for the posts, which reminded me yet again, my pitiful knowledge [not beyond a survey level] of the ww’s

  293. Much as it pains me to paddle around in this cesspool, I can’t permit Machiavelli to be defamed.

    Michael Ledeen’s brutish misinterpretation of Niccolo Machiavelli, one of western civilization’s most insightful minds, goaded me to make a significant gift to a public library with the request that they use the gift to teach young people about The Prince. I even gave the names of some authors who get Machiavelli right — scholars like Maurizio Viroli, who has dedicated his professional life to the study of Italian history and Niccolo’s place in it. Viroli divides his time between Austin, Texas, where he (now) teaches (he used to be at Princeton), and his native Italy, where he is fully engaged in the political milieu in the attempt to help the theoretical lessons of Italy’s political scientists and scholars come to life in a way to make life better for the people of Italy. Machiavelli was passionate that the people must be an integral and well informed part of their community and its governance, and so is Viroli.

    Viroli’s study has revealed to him that Machiavelli was passionately in love with his city, Florence, and eager to see Florence develop the kind of constitutional republic that, by his lights and from his extensive study of Italian and Roman & Greek history, was the superior form of government. Jefferson, Madison, Adams and Franklin were influenced by Machiavelli.

    It sickens me to read your dismissal of high schoolers’ study of Machiavelli, but I am aware that your assessment it accurate: our young people, 16, 17 years old and all they know is “it is better to be feared then loved,” and then, (curse your horny hide, Incitatus), “then they grow up.”

    No, Incitatus, they do not grow up, they remain just as stunted as you appear to be pleased to be. (Don’t get me started on Alexander; that peculiar non- entity is why IQ scales have an Idiot category.)

    Michael Ledeen is a bastard and a psychopath. He should be behind bars or even Morrelled. That Ledeen lived in the nation that is my heritage is an abomination. And he got Machiavelli almost totally wrong. Washington University in St Louis rejected Ledeen’s quest for a professorship there; smart move on their part, but it condemned the rest of the world — and my Italy– to having Ledeen pollute and debase its intellectual capital.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
    , @Incitatus
    , @Art
  294. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    You have to stop censuring yourself and pulling your punches; let it out.

  295. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Afraid I don’t entirely follow the source of your rage; that you hold Machiavelli in high regard is evident and I cannot disregard that attitude with a mere shrug. Yet on the question of Ledeen’s contributions you appear in agreement with Incitatus.

    To embark on a deeper study of the WWs, it seems elementary that Warsaw ’39 and ’44, Tokyo ’45 or Nanking ’37 be remembered when discussing Dresden ’45. I am sure you agree. Also, are you indeed saying that Himmler acted on his own without Hitler’s knowledge and permission?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Incitatus
  296. Incitatus says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Cesare Borgia and Machiavelli were red herrings leading away from your Planet Germania routine. You never answered the question. Is one supposed to use Cesare Borgia to exonerate Hitler? Is Machiavelli supposed to legitimize Hitler’s behavior?

    You allege suppressed records and broken chains of custody produce a criminally distorted WW2 history. But, with apparent relish, you routinely make statements so incomplete they amount to mistruth:

    “Have you ever thought about the choices French women had to make about which of their children to save when the Allies bombed France, killing 70,000 French civilians? How many books have been written and movies produced about German women who saw their babies reduced to smudges on a wall by Allied firebombing?”
    -S2C #162

    350,000 French civilians died in WW2. If one accepts your 70,000 figure, that leaves 280,000 dead due to your meister raße. Let alone the 90,000 French soldiers killed, 200,000 wounded, and 1.5 million imprisoned as POWs 1940-45. Or the forced labor sent to places like Dora-Mittelbau, and the looting of everything from major art collections to industrial equipment.

    The association of (poor victim) German women with the French is clever. One’s almost tempted to see how many Nazis were created chevaliers de Légion d’honneur after the war. Many allied veterans were, despite their ‘terror bombing’ of France.

    Remarking on loathsome Ledeen is tempting, but you haven’t commented on the German introduction of ariel ‘terror bombing’ in 1915. Or the Condor Legion’s real world terror tests in 1937 Spain. They’re respectable while Mendleson’s 1943 tests on an unoccupied ‘village’ are criminal? Is the Nazi killing of ±25,000 civilians in 1939 Warsaw acceptable, while the Allied killing of ±25,000 civilians in 1944 Dresden is criminal? Is the death of 150,000-200,000 civilians in 1944 Warsaw less lamentable than Dresden? Or do only German victims count?

    “We must never forget, that under modern conditions of life, science, and technology, all war has become greatly brutalized, and that no one who joins in it, even in self-defense, can escape becoming also in a measure brutalized. Modern war cannot be limited in its destructive method and the inevitable debasement of all participants…A fair scrutiny of the last two World Wars makes clear the steady intensification in the inhumanity of the weapons and methods employed by both, the aggressors and the victors…We as well as our enemies have contributed to the proof that the central moral problem is war and not its methods, and that a continuance of war will in all probability end with the destruction of our civilization.”

    -Henry L. Stimson, “The Nüremberg Trial: Landmark of Law” Foreign Affairs 1947

    Wish I had more time.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  297. iffen says:

    To embark on a deeper study of the WWs, it seems elementary that Warsaw ’39 and ’44, Tokyo ’45 or Nanking ’37 be remembered when discussing Dresden ’45.

    This only applicable if you are intent upon an open inquiry of particular instances of questionable war time activities, not if you are intent upon justification of one point of view.

    Also, are you indeed saying that Himmler acted on his own without Hitler’s knowledge and permission?

    This is a well-known defense understood by practitioners of American criminal law among the proles, particularly the black ones. It is called the SODDIT defense.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  298. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,

    I failed to get #303 attached to your comment.

  299. Incitatus says:
    @iffen

    My point was intended only to illustrate S2C’s selective use/misuse of history to support a narrow agenda. In other words, action without context is easily politicized.

    I agree there’s “an unlimited supply of massacres and genocides from which to choose” but normally eschew comparative studies that rank human wretchedness: what’s the point? There’s more than enough misery to go about and I think each instance merits individual examination (with context).

    I also think one should mourn all the victims, not just a select few.

    • Replies: @iffen
  300. @Incitatus

    Is Machiavelli supposed to legitimize Hitler’s behavior?

    What behavior of Hitler’s requires being legitimized?

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  301. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    “Also, are you indeed saying that Himmler acted on his own without Hitler’s knowledge and permission?”

    I agree with Iffen, though I’m unfamiliar with SODDIT.

    Ian Kershaw describes a similar attitude common to Germans as the Reich began to dissolve before their eyes. They couldn’t bring themselves to see Hitler’s folly, claimed he was always right, and when found out traitors’ heads would roll (‘Der Führer hat immer Recht! Wenn der Führer wußte, würden Köpfe rollen’).

    S2C demonizes Morganthau for his Carthginian postwar plans for Germany. Most agree they were unwise. Hitler’s plan in early 1944, after he knew the Reich would lose, far exceeded Morganthau’s wildest wishes. It would have turned every German city into a Dresden, much as he had hoped for Paris when he ordered it destroyed Aug 1944. S2C leaves out (suppresses?) this when discussing his führer.

    And now I really must go.

    • Replies: @iffen
  302. iffen says:
    @Incitatus

    Also goes by SODDI.

    Some other dude did it.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Incitatus
  303. @Incitatus

    Touché does not answer the question.

    What behavior of Hitler’s requires being legitimized?

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  304. iffen says:
    @Incitatus

    I also think one should mourn all the victims, not just a select few.

    Exactly, I agree. I do not understand the expenditure of effort required to affix more blame to one wartime leader or one country over another. (actually, I do) We see these endless arguments over who caused the most deaths, Hitler or Stalin. To succumb to a cliché, it is an exercise in futility; it is un-enlightening and un-satisfying. Hitler killed 6 million, but Stalin killed 6 million and one. To quote our next President, “What difference at this point does it make?” We should be trying to learn from everyone’s mistakes and try to avoid making the same ones again.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @Incitatus
  305. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Hahaha. I was scratching my head wondering what a parody of the Lord of the Rings had to do with Hitler’s defence.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soddit

    Getting back to S2C’s query regarding the legitimacy of Hitler’s actions, I am tempted to remark [constrained by my limited knowledge on the matter] that he is either implying Hitler was acting the Machiavellian Prince, cleansing the Fatherland of miscreants [Jews], or, that his actions, even otherwise, were fully justified under the rules of war accepted at the time; in which latter case, I am inclined to agree and observe rather bluntly, that Adolf got what he richly deserved: don’t get into a fight with bigger boys if you are not prepared for the possibility of an arse blitzing. Well, that about covers it.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Incitatus
  306. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    don’t get into a fight with bigger boys if you are not prepared for the possibility of an arse blitzing.

    As we say down home, “If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the f***ing porch!”

  307. Art says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Michael Ledeen’s brutish misinterpretation of Niccolo Machiavelli, one of western civilization’s most insightful minds

    Hear hear – Ledeen bad guy – Machiavelli good guy.

    The Prince – a great writing.

  308. Art says:
    @Art

    Will a Good Jew ever become a Big Jew?

    So Sam – no answer? — Art

    p.s. When you’ll killed Jesus – did you kill goodness forever in the Jew mind?

    p.s. You’ll chose Barabbas – still are today.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @NoseytheDuke
  309. Sam Shama says:
    @Art

    Sparing Yeshua Bar Aba was Pilate’s decision. You ought to ask the Italians-for-Cesare in our midst for reasons; or invoke Gibson’s deep [ ;-) ] authority should your Pope Ratzinger’s opinion not suffice.

    Ok, quite enough on this nonsense. Later.

    • Replies: @Art
  310. @iffen

    Buelah sounds.

    Your comment is just so much more Jewish holocaust dogma; it does not address the very first question that must be answered: What did Hitler do that requires being legitimized?

    Framed slightly differently, and put in the chronological context — the proper concatenation — that was demanded elsewhere, this documentary chain is irrefutable:

    [MORE]

    A. 30 Jan 1933 Hitler becomes chancellor of Germany, by a process that sufficient numbers of the German people, elites, legislators, etc. agree to; i.e. Hitler’s leadership of Germany is legitimate in the eyes of the German state.

    B. 1932 – 1933 Meanwhile, in Ukraine and other parts of Russia, Stalin has set forces in motion that deliberately cause the deaths of ??? 5 million? 10 million?? kulaks and peasants. Susan Liebman Butler quotes a number of 8 million (iirc), and says the deaths were not objectionable “because they were kulaks,” and “Stalin was trying to modernize Russia.” http://www.c-span.org/video/?190721-1/book-discussion-dear-mr-stalin

    C. ~ 14 Feb 1933 Louis Brandeis tells Rabbi Stephen Wise that all Jews — all 587,000 German Jews, must leave Germany.

    Sidebar: A + B compels one to conclude that either no Jews were among those persons killed by Stalin; or that Brandeis was not concerned with the deaths of so many millions of Russian peasants which very well might have included Jews.

    D. [Feb - Mar 1933 ??] Samuel Untermyer and others of those whom Art calls Big Jews meet in Northern Europe.

    E. 12 March 1933 “the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Gardens for March 27. At that time the commander in chief of the Jewish War Veterans called for an American boycott of German goods.”

    F. 23 March 1933 “20,000 Jews protested at New York’s City Hall as rallies were staged outside the North German Lloyd and Hamburg-American shipping lines and boycotts were mounted against German goods throughout shops and businesses in New York City.”

    G. 24 March 1933 there was caused to be published, under banner headlines, in major newspapers in Britain (as well as in Poland, and later in other places throughout the world, including in the USA) “Judea Declares War on Germany!; Jews of All the World Unite!”

    There’s a line in that Declaration of war that is intriguing; it says (something like) “the Hitlerites will be brought to their knees.”

    My question is, What did “international Jewry” have against the “Hitlerites” as early as 24 March 1933 that they should publish so much venom against Germany?

    After all, as Richard Breitman has written, “the NSDAP curbed personal violence against Jews . . .from shortly after it had consolidated power” all the way until mid-November 1938. And as you may recall, Breitman is among the deans of holocaust scholarship who has made extensive use of the “German archives” held at the U S National Archives under the directorship of Richard Wolfe.

    Just to be clear: March 1933, when Jews declared war on the “Hitlerites,” comes before
    1938.
    But don’t take my word for that fact, nor for the fact that 1933 comes before 1945, when Eisenhower had those grotesque photos taken at the camp at Ohrdruf; Timothy Snyder, who has made a career of study of WWII in the East, told a Ukrainian audience in Chicago that

    In history you can’t really say something happened in 1933 because something was going to happen in 1945. You can only explain things that happened in 1933 by events up to and including 1933. It’s very tempting to apply later events . . . but we can only understand historical events in terms of the causes that bring them about. . . .

    So the March 1933 complaints against “the Hitlerites” could not logically have been about things that happened in 1938, or 1941, or 1942, or 1945.

    Some argue that the Jewish declaration of war against “the Hitlerites” was in response to Adolf Hitler’s expressions of hatred of Jews in a book he wrote while in prison in ~1924, Mein Kampf.

    Couple interesting facts about that book– explaining them requires expanding the Dramatis personae; Meet Ernst “Putzie” Hanfstaengl, German-born son of an art dealer Bavarian father and an American mother. If you read Eric Larson’s In the Garden of Beasts, you may recognize Putzie as Hitler’s favorite piano player, and also the guy who phoned Goebbels & Hitler to tell them that the Reichstag was on fire.

    Putzie was more than that. Hanfstaengl’s lineage goes back to the Civil War in USA; before he was Hitler’s favorite pianist, Putzie was pals with the Roosevelts, both Theodore and Franklin, whom he met at the Harvard Club in New York while young Ernst was managing the family’s art dealership in New York.

    Hanfstaengl was instrumental in encouraging Hitler to write Mein Kampf; Hanfstaengl fronted the money to publish Mein Kampf — indeed, to fund the publishing house run by an old army buddy of Hitler’s that later published other material for the Third Reich. And it was to the Hanfstaengls that Hitler fled after a failed coup attempt resulted in the deaths of some of Hitler’s followers and his own rather cowardly flight from the scene. Hanfstaengl sheltered Adolf and, according to some stories, Mrs. Hanfstaengl convinced him not to kill himself. (go ahead, say it, get it off your chest _______ )

    It was Hanfstaengl who brought Hitler to the attention of Franklin Roosevelt; Hanfstaengl who played a role in the Reichstag fire and therefore Hitler’s aggrandizement of power; Hanfstaengl who maintained communications with FDR as the Third Reich rose in power; Hanfstaengl who defected to the USA where he was debriefed for the benefit of the Roosevelt war cabinet, and Hanfstaengl who was discarded by the Roosevelt admin. when he was no longer of use to them.

    I’m not gonna say that it sounds to me like Putzie was Hitler’s handler, deployed and used by the Rooseveltians. That would be too conspiracy theory-ish, and tinfoil scratches my bald pate.

    Oh — one more thing: so Hanfstaengl encourages the writing of Mein Kampf and fronts the funds to get it published. But it’s in German. Now, the second largest ethnic group in USA at that time was German, and German was taught in many, many schools and was the language of science in the USA (maybe even the western world), but an English translation seemed desirable.

    That English (American) translation was undertaken by Edgar Dugdale and his wife, Blanche, both ardent zionists; Blanche was the niece of Arthur Balfour of — well, surely you all know who Balfour is and his importance to the zionist project. The Dugdale translation was published in

    K. July 1933; on

    I. June 5, 1933 Franklin Roosevelt “torpedoed” the London Economic Conference that was supposed to solve the credit crisis plaguing Europe, and took USA off the gold standard. In the same month,

    J. June 1933, FDR delegated Henry Morgenthau, Jr. to meet with Russian representatives to secure credit and other commercial relationships between USA and Stalin’s Russia. Morgenthau’s appointment circumvented FDR’s State Department. (You’re recalling, of course, that Stalin has just killed, or is in the process of killing, 8 million kulaks.)

    What does all that stuff about who brought Mein Kampf to the fore mean? I don’t know, but it’s a hell of a coincidence.

    Back to the Jewish Declaration of War on Germany: many argue that it was a one-off; that it was meaningless. The USHolocaust Memorial Museum goes so far as to spotlight the German boycott of Jewish businesses — a dastardly act, indeed; one that lasted one day,

    H. 1 April 1933. https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005678 but USHMM rather obscures that fact and its relationship to the Jewish declaration of economic war on Germany.

    The point, and the argument, of this jumpy timeline is that the real action that brought about WWII took place in 1933, and was driven by American and Jewish (and some British) forces; Hitler was not a pawn, but neither was he the king; let’s call him a knight, or a bishop with a gift for rhetoric that Hanfstaengl recognized, brought to the attention of Roosevelt and FDR’s Jewish court Jews.


    After the war and before the Berlin wall came down, the Communist party produced anti-Nazi propaganda films, among them a (really crappy) number called Council of the Gods. It dealt with the relationships between German corporate and financial elites and their American counterparts, particularly Standard Oil. The Council was the group of German corporate leaders. At a dinner in one of their sumptuous homes, a Council member comments, “That fellow Hitler is very effective at getting the people stirred up,” (or words to that effect). They knew Hitler was their tool.

    One final note: Historian Thomas Fleming spent over a week as a guest in Harry Truman’s home to interview the then-former president for one (or more) of Fleming’s books. Fleming pursued two lines of thought (that I recall). First, he said that Truman told him that FDR was the coldest, emptiest man he had even encountered.
    Second, historian Fleming cited the work of a friend of his, Michael Kammen, and his book, “Mystic Chords of Memory.” Fleming endorsed Kammen’s thesis that the initial versions of history — such as Shirer’s Rise and Fall, and the thousands of emotionally-charged (but, I argue, factually suspect) holocaust books — are recordings of emotion, propaganda and polemic, but they are not the work of disciplined historians who gather and weigh facts and evidence. Typically, Fleming says, that work cannot take place for 30- to 50- years after an event. Since I might not live that long, I want to rush the process a bit. It’s important to get the history right.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @iffen
  311. @SolontoCroesus

    forgot to include letter

    L.

    which should actually come after the argument that the Jewish boycott of Germany was not that big a deal (H).

    The archives of the Jewish Telegraphic Agency are informative:

    [MORE]

    German Boycott Spreading Throughout Europe
    March 29, 1933 5:00am
    The Jewish boycott against Germany is spreading rapidly throughout Europe,

    Boycott of German Goods by Moroccan Jewry
    March 31, 1933 5:00am
    At a conference of the Jewish community here, attended by representatives of all Jewish societies in the city, as well as by the chief Rabbinate, it was decided to give official support and patronage to the boycott of German goods.

    Anti-german Boycott Will Stop if Nazi Boycott Discontinued, Says Vaad Leumi Cable to Hitler
    April 2, 1933 5:00am
    The Vaad Leumi, which is the Executive Committee of the Jewish National Assembly in Palestine, has sent a cablegram directly to Chancellor Hitler, declaring that the boycott of German goods in Palestine, so far a spontaneous action carried on only by individuals, may be stopped, if the German authorities should put a stop to the…

    Jewish Merchants in Iraq Boycott German Goods
    April 2, 1933 5:00am
    Many Jewish merchants here have cancelled orders of German goods. The news from Germany has produced a great deal of anxiety both in Baghdad and Besra, the two main mercantile centers in Iraq,

    Warsaw Jewish Groups to Continue Boycott
    April 7, 1933 5:00am
    The Jewish Central economic organizations decided today to continue the boycott against German goods. Representatives of various trade organizations met today and resolved not to buy German goods because, the resolution stated, they are “stained with Jewish blood”. The boycott is now embracing the entire country.

    Polish-jewish Deputies Urge Boycott Continue
    April 20, 1933 5:00am
    The Club of Jewish members of the Polish Parliament has issued an appeal urging the continuation of the anti-German boycott.

    Even Egyptians Join in Boycott, Nazis Shock ’em
    April 23, 1933 5:00am
    Boycotting of German products in protest against Hitlerist persecution of the Jews has spread to Egypt,

    Untermyer Backs Boycott at Palestine Campaign Opening in Boston
    May 9, 1933 4:00am
    Adolf Hitler and the Nazi policy of persecuting the Jews in Germany were vigorously denounced here last night at the demonstration dinner at Symphony Hall which marked the opening of the American Palestine Campaign in Boston. Twenty-five hundred attended the affair which was addressed by Samuel Untermyer, of New York, who delivered the key-note speech;…

    Senator Copeland at Boycott Conference Sunday
    May 11, 1933 4:00am
    United States Senator Royal S. Copeland will address a boycott conference Sunday afternoon at the Hotel Astor under the auspices of the American League for the Defense of Jewish Rights, it was announced yesterday. The purpose of the conference is to organize and coordinate boycott activities directed against the Nazis in Germany. The American Jewish…

    Large-scale Boycott Move Against Nazis Gets Under Way Following Conference Here
    May 16, 1933 4:00am
    Plans to organize and concert activities leading to a complete boycott here of products of German manufacture were under way here yesterday.

    Large-scale Boycott Move Against Nazis Gets Under Way Here
    May 16, 1933 4:00am
    he said, everyone would have to take sides. “They will have to be either with us or against us,” he exclaimed. Mr. de Haas declared the struggle was no longer one of aiding or protecting the body of German Jews who, he said, were largely responsible for their own downfall, but of protecting world Jewry…

    Boycott Against Nazis Taking Definite Shape Along Vocational Lines
    May 17, 1933 4:00am
    American Jewish boycott plans against the Nazi regime in Germany, took definite form yesterday, with organization of a conference, to be composed of dentists; druggists and physicians, to be held within the next few days.

    Shall Jews Organize Public Boycott of German Goods?
    May 21, 1933 4:00am
    Essentially the question as to whether or not we shall proclaim a public boycott against German goods is an academic one, for actually the boycott is already on, and it is public. All America knows about it. The New York Times speaks of it in only faintly concealed language.

    Baltimoreans Hear Germany is “broke”
    May 21, 1933 4:00am
    As the result of increasing unemployment and a world-wide boycott of German products, Germany is “broke” and the only Jews the Hitler government is not molesting are the private Jewish bankers, Jacob Epstein, retired Baltimore merchant, told the Baltimore section of the American Jewish Congress last night. More than 700 of the leading Jewish merchants,…

    etc

  312. helena says:

    “The point, and the argument, of this jumpy timeline is that~;

    1. the real action that brought about WWII took place in 1933, and was driven by American and Jewish (and some British) forces;

    2. Hitler was not a pawn, but neither was he the king; let’s call him a knight, or a bishop with a gift for rhetoric that Hanfstaengl recognized, brought to the attention of Roosevelt and FDR’s Jewish court Jews. ”

    There we are! There’s the thesis in a nutshell. Discuss.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
  313. Incitatus says:
    @iffen

    Thanks – now I get it! I’ll try and remember when next pulled over by the police.

    • Replies: @helena
  314. Incitatus says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    “What behavior of Hitler’s requires being legitimized?”

    Well if I were a German standing in ruins I’d question most (if not all) of his behavior.

    Think back to Mein Kampf and the Führer’s other holy utterances. Wasn’t he fond of the brutal struggle for survival, a struggle in which only the victor deserved to live? Well, Adolf failed. So the answer to your question, by Adolf’s own standard, was all of his behavior was illegitimate and he richly deserved destruction into the bargain.

    Galbraith describes the top Nazi brass he interviewed at ‘Ashcan’ in 1945 as stinking of booze. Gilbert, Fest and Speer’s descriptions aren’t much better. Maybe there was a reason for the alcohol (then again, maybe the führer should have imbibed).

    Did Machiavelli recommend failure as a desirable quality in a Prince?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
  315. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sparing Yeshua Bar Aba was Pilate’s decision. You ought to ask the Italians-for-Cesare in our midst for reasons; or invoke Gibson’s deep [ ;-) ] authority should your Pope Ratzinger’s opinion not suffice.

    Sam,

    Ho hum – coerced revisionist history forced on Christians leaders by the Big Jews and their money.

    Still the question remains – “Will a Good Jew ever become a Big Jew?” – you refuse to address.

    Art

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  316. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Once in power, Hitler moved quickly to end German democracy. He convinced his cabinet to invoke emergency clauses of the constitution that permitted the suspension of individual freedoms of press, speech, and assembly. Special security forces — the Gestapo, the Storm Troopers (SA), and the SS –murdered or arrested leaders of opposition political parties (Communists, socialists, and liberals). The Enabling Act of March 23, 1933–forced through the Reichstag already purged of many political opponents–gave dictatorial powers to Hitler.

    After they seized power in 1933, the Nazis began to implement their policies, which included the formation of a Volksgemeinschaft (people’s community) based on race. Chancellor and Führer (leader) Adolf Hitler declared a national boycott of Jewish businesses on 1 April 1933, and the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service, passed on 7 April, excluded most Jews from the legal profession and civil service. Books considered un-German, including those by Jewish authors, were destroyed in a nationwide book burning on 10 May. Jewish citizens were harassed and subjected to violent attacks. They were actively suppressed, stripped of their citizenship and civil rights, and eventually completely removed from German society.

    The Nuremberg Laws (German: Nürnberger Gesetze) were antisemitic laws in Nazi Germany. They were introduced on 15 September 1935 by the Reichstag at a special meeting convened at the annual Nuremberg Rally of the Nazi Party (NSDAP). The two laws were the Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour, which forbade marriages and extramarital intercourse between Jews and Germans and the employment of German females under 45 in Jewish households, and the Reich Citizenship Law, which declared that only those of German or related blood were eligible to be Reich citizens; the remainder were classed as state subjects, without citizenship rights.

    Wiki is your friend.

    Had I been a Jew in 1933 Germany, I would hope that I would not have been advocating the boycott, I hope that I would have been throwing Molotovs.

  317. Incitatus says:
    @iffen

    Who can disagree?

    Actually, having written that, I’m sure many on this thread would disagree. ‘So it goes’ as Vonnegut might say.

    This old horse admires S2C’s prose, but still thinks he’s a mole.

    • Replies: @iffen
  318. iffen says:
    @Incitatus

    So the answer to your question, by Adolf’s own standard, was all of his behavior was illegitimate and he richly deserved destruction into the bargain.

    Hitler devotees should question how his “scorched earth” commands in the last days benefitted the German people.

    I agree with you. By definition, a leader who leads his people to destruction and defeat is a failed leader.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  319. iffen says:
    @helena

    Jews provoke Romans into executing a diaspora>(previously taking care to kill Jesus because they knew that Christianity would become the religion of the West)> spend centuries honing their financial skills in the Muslim empires>catch the beginning wave of economic progress in Europe>spend centuries being persecuted and treated as yo-yos by rulers in the Western world>engineer the destruction of the Holy Roman Empire in order to be able to bring about the economic depression in the early 20th century>so that Hitler will come to power and try to exterminate them>the big powers feeling bad about Hitler decide to help Zionists create Israel>Israelis and Jews decide to get all the money in the world so that they can destroy it (the world)

    Did I forget anything?

    • Replies: @helena
  320. Incitatus says:
    @iffen

    The word ‘lemming’ comes to mind, especially as it describes Nazi enthusiasts at this late date. But perhaps ‘really blind and deaf lemming’ is better (the rest of the pack(?) long ago abandoned attempts to justify murder leading to suicide, Wagner notwithstanding).

  321. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    “Adolf got what he richly deserved.”

    Most living Germans (excepting S2C’s Generalmajor Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof) would probably agree. Failure’s a bitch.

    If I remember correctly, S2C mentioned McCullough’s ‘Greater Journey’ as a serious source on the Franco-Prussian War. Though I revere McCullough, I’d choose Alistair Horne on France (‘The Fall of Paris 1870-71’, ‘The Price of Glory: Verdun 1916’, ‘To Lose a Battle: France 1941’). He’s also the standard on Algeria.

    That modern Germany was born on conquest celebrated at Versailles 1871 pretty much spells it’s political heritage for 70 years. Hitler shouldn’t have been a surprise after blockheads like Ludendorff, Hindenburg, von Falkenhayn, etc.

    I won’t bore you with alternates to Shirer (well worth reading), other than to say there are many more accessible works.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @SolontoCroesus
  322. Sam Shama says:
    @helena

    [There's the thesis in a nutshell.Discuss]

    “Crikey!” was my first reaction to S2C’s short post, but then I spotted Incitatus and Iffen do the honours.

    Truly, for a man who exhorts and cherishes every act of Cesare Borgia [excluding perhaps those committed with or on Lucrezia], he must therefore accept Adolph’s failure and fate as a leader, with as much grace as he can muster. I said as much in #312, though I’m afraid I lack a certain romantic flair.

    • Replies: @helena
  323. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    I thank you for the references. I’d been searching off and on for what is considered authoritative. I shall certainly order them.

  324. @Incitatus

    I don’t believe I ever said that McCullough is a good resource for Franco Prussian war, only that he stated, in a talk about his book, Greater Journey, that the history of the wars in Europe in 20th century must begin with the Franco Prussian war.

    Geoffrey Wawro’s work on that war is top notch.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @RobinG
    , @Incitatus
  325. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    [Galbraith describes the top Nazi brass he interviewed at ‘Ashcan’ in 1945 as stinking of booze. Gilbert, Fest and Speer’s descriptions aren’t much better. Maybe there was a reason for the alcohol (then again, maybe the führer should have imbibed).]

    Fascinating. I recall reading somewhere , that Adolph suffered from a bad case of halitosis; if so, alcohol would’ve been indicated for more than one purpose.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  326. Sam Shama says:
    @Art

    [Still the question remains – “Will a Good Jew ever become a Big Jew?” ]

    I intend to. :-)

    • Replies: @Art
  327. RobinG says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    What’s your assessment of this video? Ray has a folksy, conversational style. (he’s a grandpa who teaches Bible classes…)

    Ray McGovern: The Rest of the Story behind U.S., Israel, and Syria
    This is one of a series by Tremblay featuring Ray.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  328. helena says:
    @Incitatus

    I don’t even know why that is funny but I laughed out loud. Basically, I’m just a pie-in-the-sky idiot?! But really, Iffen, the thing is, a thing is not an object but a debate.

  329. helena says:
    @iffen

    “Jews provoke Romans into executing a diaspora”

    Honestly Iffen, how can one execute a diaspora – the diaspora is the ones that got away.

    Compare Britain AD61 and Israel/Judaea(?) AD(70)?

    Boudicca, nice try, oh well, those baubles look nice and, oh! wine. Cool.

    We will not surrender, not even if you smash our temple and evict us from our land(((!!!)))

  330. helena says:
    @Sam Shama

    Is SC guilty of admiration? If so I’ve missed those bits. I think he just tries to call a spade a spade. His quote about legitimisation, I read it as a reversed-psychology comment because how could anything that happened in wwII be legitimised? It was all horrendous.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
  331. iffen says:
    @helena

    call a spade a spade

    We should always call a Spade a Spade; we should never call a Spade a spade.

    • Replies: @helena
  332. iffen says:
    @Incitatus

    This old horse admires S2C’s prose, but still thinks he’s a mole.

    Yes it is impressive.

    I think it is what a Bowerbird nest would look like if the bird suffered from Spiderman syndrome.

  333. @RobinG

    Thanks RobinG.
    McGovern’s was very effective.

    I’ll send it around.

    McGovern’s narrative reminded me of Diane Feinstein’s comments in the days immediately following the “gassing” event — she said, on camera, that she had tasked her staff to work with Pentagon and others in government to prepare a video showing the dead children “that Assad killed.” She was convinced that such a video would overwhelm the American public. Engel talked about the “poor children, foaming at the mouth and then dying;” he said, “there’s all kinds of evidence that Assad used chemicals . . .I’m sure that as it all comes out the case will be solid against Assad.”

    Can’t find that exact clip, but in this video Feinstein, Ruppersberger (D-MD), and Elliot Engel called for war against Assad and repeated that “nations like Iran must know that chemical weapons must never be used . . . we banned them after WWI.”

    Making Iran the target of their eagerness for war is over-the-top outrageous.

    Where were Engel and Ruppersberger & Feinstein in the 1980s when Saddam used chemical weapons against Iranian civilians. Iran sent numerous letters to the United Nations demanding that prohibition of chemical weapons be enforced, but the UN — and the US — remained silent.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?314814-4/committee-leaders-syria

    One more thing: there is no evidence more compelling that the dogmatized holocaust narrative is deeply falsified than the present behavior of agents for Israel/zionism who are in a direct line with Jabotinskyite revisionist thugs. They are lying and manipulating the US to do their dirty work for the benefit of Israel now.
    Are we to believe that the leopard changed its spots somewhere between Lithuania and Poland in the 1920s, when the Irgun and Stern gangs were actively fomenting shit against the Polish, Russian and German people, as well as their fellow Jews who would not go along with their schemes, and today, when we see them on camera fomenting shit against Russians, Iranians, etc., as well as their fellow Jews?

  334. helena says:
    @iffen

    The Gardeners’ Spade, The Farmers’ Spade, The Miners’ Spade?

  335. Incitatus says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Apologies: I enjoyed ‘Greater Journey’ but think McCullough at his peak in his other work. He’s right about studying the FPW. It’s as neglected as the French and Indian/Seven Years War in American history.

    Thanks for the tip on Geoffrey Wawro: I’ll give him a look. I also recall being impressed by Edward Crankshaw’s ‘Bismarck’ thirty years ago. And – for entertainment – Zola’s ‘La Débâcle’ (taken with earlier novels in the series).

  336. Sam Shama says:
    @helena

    Well he sounded rather chippy about Incitatus’ perspective on Machiavelli.

    Imo, Machiavelli wasn’t the first fellow to propose the idea of a knight/prince coming to the rescue of a republic in peril. In point of fact, it wasn’t that novel an idea for Machiavellian Rome to draw inspiration from the previous turbulent Roman history/politics. I think it was circa 450 BC, when Cincinnatus was the first patrician to be appointed dictator – he left the plough – and rescued Rome from the Sabines. Ironic, I’d say, since Cincinnatus voluntarily relinquished his power and went back to farming, but did S2C’s Cesare? Borgias? Or was Adolph likely to?

  337. @Sam Shama

    have any of yous guys ever read Machiavelli or are you just pulling stuff out of your arses or that even darker slimier hole, wikipedia?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  338. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Well you keep erecting him as the embodiment of …what did you call it virtu?

  339. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    [Still the question remains – “Will a Good Jew ever become a Big Jew?” ]

    I intend to. :-)

    Hmm – doing any water walking? :-)

  340. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    I don’t know if Adolf had deadly breath, but it wouldn’t surprise me. So much of the rest of him was toxic. Amazing his dinner partners didn’t die of boredom every night judging from Table Talk.

    Bullock, as I recall, was masterful at cataloguing the führer’s habits but it’s 40+ years since I’ve read him (Kershaw and Fest – more recent reads – are very good ). To be honest WW2 is a rather depressing subject, especially as it attracts the most peculiar post-mortem advocates. Give me North American sauvages any day – at least they were honest.

    I freely confess I didn’t read my Machiavelli as devoutly as S2C and Looney Ledeen would have wished. But I did read it. Perhaps subsequent disdain for political science (the major-of-choice for an easy deferment in the late 60s for people like Dick Cheney) inhibits me from rereading him, but who knows what may happen in future?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @NoseytheDuke
  341. iffen says:

    inhibits me from rereading him

    I think the essence may be: Great Leaders do what is required without regard to any rule or authority other than the rule that one should do what is required.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  342. Incitatus says:
    @iffen

    Naturally greatness is best assessed post-mortem. Like economists, political scientists do their best work after their subjects are safely tucked away in coffins. Then they can opine at length without fear of contradiction.

  343. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    Incitatus and Iffen,

    Gentlemen, its been interesting and productive talking about this subject. Permit me to make a conjecture or two about you, my interlocutors [something I expect we all surely do, on occasion]:

    ‘Incitatus’, intriguing choice of handle, I must say as an equestrian. Little Boots had him titled Senator which drove some of the humans in his social rank mad with envy. I sense your deep and wide knowledge of history and that you are not letting on too much in the way of your professional status and experience :-) . I daresay my own interest in history is strong, although unmatched by study, and I hope I shall be able to remedy that shortcoming in earnest!

    Iffen, I pick you an attorney of talent with a nose for spotting hubris in debates, and an uncommon insight into the subtleties of human behaviour. I wish I had it.

    Talking about history and law, there is another gentleman who comments on them, usually pithily, and also on a wide variety of other subjects, that strikes me as an exceptional polymath. I won’t mention his handle, but, there it is, you are the reasons I visit these pages.

    Anyway, off to my little summer ritual at Cape Cod tomorrow, and I shall be traveling with Tom Holland’s Rubicon: Last years of the Roman Republic and a copy of Kingsley Amis’ Everyday Drinking. [the history titles haven't arrived yet]

    cheers.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Incitatus
  344. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    “BOYCOTT from WITHIN”
    Yaron London tries to make the same defensive (offensive) deflections as iffen, but Ronnie Barkan won’t let him get away with it. (As an American, imo Phyllis Bennis has a better retort, namely that “we” are funding and supporting Israel’s atrocities so we citizens have every reason to focus on that injustice.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYIwP6X82Tg&feature=youtu.be

    Ronnie Barkan discusses #BDS and international solidarity on Israeli TV

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  345. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    Thanks as always Robin; I shall watch it tomorrow and offer you my comments.

    cheers

  346. helena says:
    @Sam Shama

    “Well he sounded rather chippy”

    Best appreciated with a bit of Cod.

    Happy hols!

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @helena
  347. iffen says:
    @helena

    We don’t eat chips with our fish, we eat freedom fries.

  348. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    my own interest in history is strong, although unmatched by study, and I hope I shall be able to remedy that shortcoming in earnest!

    Ditto!

    Incitatus, have you read SQPR? I listened to part of an interview with Mary Beard on NPR and I liked what she had to say.

    Sam, I like to try my hand at a lot of stuff for which my mental abilities may not be up to task. I think that for me it satisfies that risk-taking yearning that came down to me from prior generations.

    I think the most important political activity is choosing sides, and correctly. It is our nature to be both loyal and deceptive. I try to decipher whether a person or an idea is on my side. One of the best ways to accomplish this is to look at the words that the person uses, hence my concern that you were trying to sell me a half-duck, hence my concern with using Holocaust or holocaust; lobby or Lobby. I posted my checklist of agreement with SC in a facetious manner, but I actually agree with him on all of those. I also agree with him on his refusal to use Holocaust instead of holocaust. If they can make you use words that you don’t want to use then there is no point to your resistance, you have lost already. That said, I only agree with his model, not the particulars or the examples he uses in the model. There is likely a word for that but I do not know it or can’t pull it up right now.

    Fishtown is real and it is intentional, or at least the refusal to do something about it is real. The unwillingness (inability) to face the “truth” and implement effective policies to alleviate the problems is real. It makes me angry, very angry.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  349. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    My only regret is not to have been made Consul. Live and learn.

    Enjoy ‘Rubicon’ and the Cape, Sam.

    All the best.

  350. helena says:
    @helena

    I should have said ‘digested’ (didn’t mean to imply I knew anything about the merits of the arguments viz Mac) – with a pinch of salt, too!

    Iffen – Sam was schooled in England, so he gets chuffin’ chips!

  351. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @iffen

    isn’t there a series of novels w/ a British detective & his female sidekick,the sidekick’s favorite expression is Soddit? is soddit a kinder gentler version of blimey?

  352. Incitatus says:
    @iffen

    I’ve heard good things about ‘SPQR’ but haven’t gotten to it (yet). My last ancient journey was Stephen Greenblatt’s ‘The Swerve: How the World Became Modern,’ which I thoroughly enjoyed.

  353. @Art

    Art,

    Surely the Romans dunnit, crucifixion was a Roman punishment after all. Jews would have stoned him. I thought the Pythons covered this matter rather well.

    Bar means, son of, and Abbas means, father. Therefore Barabbas means son of the father. Were the crowd calling out for the release of The Son of the Father? JC?

    We’ll never know, the video was confiscated and lies hidden in a vault along with the videos of the attack on the Pentagon.

    • Replies: @Art
  354. @Incitatus

    Speer tells us that a great many guests fought a battle against falling asleep at his dinner parties.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  355. Incitatus says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Speer is a great source, if (understandably) a bit self-serving. His brilliant ‘I didn’t know, but I’m responsible’ defense was a breath of fresh air at Nüremberg. But he let Sauckel swing for slavery crimes he knowingly engendered. And he almost certainly heard Himmler’s 6 Oct 1943 Posen extermination remarks.

    His descriptions of the Nazi elite ring true – just one big crime family out to cut each others throats.

    “There is a special trap for every holder of power, whether the director of a company, the head of a state, or the ruler of a dictatorship. His favor is so desirable to his subordinates that that they will sue for it by every means possible. Servility becomes endemic among his entourage, who compete among themselves in their show of devotion. This in turn exercises a sway upon the ruler, who becomes corrupted in his turn.”

    -Speer ‘Inside the Third Reich’ 1970

    Gitta Sereny unwraps Speer’s ‘ignorance’ alibi with consummate skill.

  356. Art says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    The crucifixion story was changed by the Jews in the 60′s.

    Bishop Williamson – Holocaustianity – Truth….or Consequences

    The bishop talks about the capitulation of the Popes to ADL Jew coercion about the revision of the crucifixion story.

    • Replies: @solontoCroesus
  357. @Art

    “finally the implicit acknowledgment that Jews, Christians and Muslims – all have “stolen” their religion from that of Martyred [Aryan aka Iranian aka Persian] Zoroaster. . . .

    I found the stories of the Old Testament about the Great King curious in that they never admit that there could have been a community of Believers (in one God) who were not Jews – as though the Great King had acquired his religious beliefs out of nowhere.

    It is another one of those amusing things to me…claiming exclusivity on the invention/discovery of Monotheism…while the Old Testament explicitly attributes it to the Great King.”

    Babak Makkinejad @ http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/02/toward-a-borg-definition.html#comment-6a00d8341c72e153ef01b7c81be5cd970b

    • Replies: @Art
  358. Art says:
    @solontoCroesus

    It is another one of those amusing things to me…claiming exclusivity on the invention/discovery of Monotheism…while the Old Testament explicitly attributes it to the Great King.”

    I place no credence in the old testament – it is one fictitious self-severing story after another.

    The Jew fascination with the death of their enemies subverts their character.

    Celebrating Passover for 3,000 years is sick.

  359. @Intelligent Dasein

    Or..in the vernacular…Jews own us. Now what? Seriously…now what? Phil?

  360. @Priss Factor

    Decades ago, many decades ago now. America used to wear the white hats. Think about it… Following israel’s lead, we’ve become what we say we hate; assassins, saboteurs..and cyber-terrorists.

    Israel’s and Judaism’s mania has corrupted our values, our foreign policy and our system of government.Again I ask Phil…What now?

  361. @Wizard of Oz

    A more important question would be what is the (il)logic underpinning any contemplated “use of massive force” on Iran. I’d love to hear that series of zionist ‘talking points’.

    Btw..the newly released documentary ‘Zero Days’ relates several important factors in why the US acceeded to israeli demands to “take action” on Iran’s nuclear facilities via Stuxnet. The main reason being that the CIA and US military knew that if israel bombed Iran, that israel expected the US military to be obligated to finish the job that war mongering israel would have instigated. Expecting a wider war outcome and the loss of many American lives solely for israel’s benefit, the cyber-war option was thought to be the lesser of the two evils.

    It also explains that because of israel’s manic determination to do even more damage to Iran, israel manipulated the Stuxnet code in the second or third versions to make it more destructive without informing the US, which because of the spread of the Stuxnet virus to other countries, led to its discovery.

    As I always say..give a zionist a gun, and he’ll either massacre something, or shoot himself in the foot. Usually both…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  362. @Reality Check

    Interesting. I must try and find the “Zero Days” documentary which I don’t rememember seeing, or even hearing of. That l hadn’t heard of it suggests it for part of Ron’s American Pravda Museum.

    Since American courts now have extra-galactic jurisdiction and members of American Bars have infinite ingenuity I wonder whether we won’t read eventually of a class action on behalf of Iranian workers who lost their jobs because of Stuxnet, naturally led in court by an Israeli-American lawyer.

    Its good to get an intelligent response from a commenter who doesn’t seek to inflate his self perceived persona by tossing in insults or ridiculous speculative imputations….

  363. @helena

    I have just tuned in to some of your and Sam Shama’s conversation and incidemtally came across your reference to your leaving “GG” in 1980.

    As GG, though distantly, evokes something Australian in my mind but I think it unlikely I infer that GG stands for Golders Green and a Jewish background, n’est-ce pas? The reference to humour was a supporting clue :-)

    • Replies: @helena
  364. helena says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “I infer that GG stands for Golders Green”

    That’s the beauty of the small big world of the Jewish fraternity.
    Do you stretch as far as HGS?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  365. @helena

    Another electronic wipeout after a lot of 3 am thumbing of my phone and sudden battery collapse. In very brief…

    I have only sketchy kmowledge and memories of London north of Holland Park Road…..High Holborn but got past Marx and Highgate Cemetery (magpie memory – never been there) to Hampstead Garden Suburb and guessing you weren’t an eruv building Haredi but from a secularising family and married to a 95 per cent secular assimilated Jewish husband now possibly ex.

    My non PC rabbi friend reconciles himself to the Israeli Jewish fertility being – apart from having a spare for the IDF – the product of the huge Haredi, mostly I suppose Hasidic, families on the ground that they carry the genes (i.e. I suppose he would agree, the ones selected for the g factor before about 1600 when population exploded, Hasidism took off and a whole lot of illiterates (but obviously bearers of the genes which won Nobel Prizes) eventually sent their proliferting offspring West. As he notes they won’t all stick to the world of eruvs and Shabbat lifts forever. BUT…. can you comment on what might be generalised from what I observed in Israel which was the results of the inbreeding amongst the Haredi. I saw lots of obviously retarded kids being taken for walks in Jerusalem. Common in the US and UK too? And what does it imply for the future descendants of those families’ non-retarded members? (That last question I would like to hsve JayMan’s or Greg Cochran’s opinion of course).

    • Replies: @helena
  366. helena says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I think we’re on opposite sides of Hoop Lane.

    “but got past Marx”
    I never visited his ‘head’. On the other hand my sibling did visit the ‘head’ for a late night drinks party and went on to live an exemplary English Bourgeois life.

    eruv.
    Thank you for the information. My heart is broken.

    3. BUT…. can you comment . Yes I can. Prof Alan Bittles is in Australia. I expect he has retired. He is the world’s expert on consanguinity. Prof Bittles, iirc, pronouned that the ‘marriage-created’ incidence in birth defects globally amounts to around 2% and should not therefore be ‘alarming’. I found that very alarming.

    4. Common in the US and UK too? Bradford has a problem but even South Asian English reporters are suppressed from reporting on it.

    6. Greg Cochran’s opinion. Genius. the only person blogging who fully understands evolution. imo of course.

  367. Trutherator says: • Website

    Growing numbers of Christians, especially libertarian Christians, are beginning to realize that the nation-state called Israel has nothing to do with the ancient promises to Abraham, and that the circumcision of the flesh over there has nothing to do with the children of Abraham. The true children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are by faith.

    The state of Israel was founded by socialist-pagan shadowy plutocrats, an oligarchy that covers itself in the sheepskin of Biblical history in the aftermath of the Holocaust, seizing the sympathy of the world.

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