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The Turkish account of the murder of Khashoggi given by President Erdogan is true, in every detail. Audio and video evidence exists and has been widely shared with world intelligence agencies, including the US, UK, Russia and Germany, and others which have a relationship with Turkey or are seen as influential. That is why, despite their desperate desire to do so, no Western country has been able to maintain support for Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman. I have not seen the video from inside the consulate, but have been shown stills which may be from a video. The most important thing to say is that they are not from a fixed position camera and appear at first sight consistent with the idea they are taken by a device brought in by the victim. I was only shown them briefly. I have not heard the audio recording.

There are many things to learn from the gruesome murder other than the justified outrage at the event itself. It opens a window on the truly horrible world of the extremely powerful and wealthy.

The first thing to say is that the current Saudi explanation, that this was an intended interrogation and abduction gone wrong, though untrue, does have one thing going for it. It is their regular practice. The Saudis have for years been abducting dissidents abroad and returning them to the Kingdom to be secretly killed. The BBC World Service often contains little pockets of decent journalism not reflected in its main news outlets, and here from August 2017 is a little noticed piece on the abduction and “disappearance” of three other senior Saudis between 2015-17. Interestingly, while the piece was updated this month, it was not to include the obvious link to the Khashoggi case.

The key point is that European authorities turned a completely blind eye to the abductions in that BBC report, even when performed on European soil and involving physical force. The Saudi regime was really doing very little different in the Khashoggi case. In fact, inside Saudi Arabia, Khashoggi was a less senior and important figure than those other three abducted then killed, about whom nobody kicked up any fuss, even though the truth was readily available. Mohammed Bin Salman appears to have made two important miscalculations: he misread Erdogan and he underestimated the difference which Khashoggi’s position as a Washington Post journalist made to political pressure on Western governments.

Khashoggi should not himself be whitewashed. He had a long term professional association with the Saudi security services which put him on the side of prolific torturers and killers for decades. That does not in any sense justify his killing. But it is right to be deeply sceptical of the democratic credentials of Saudis who were in with the regime and have become vocal for freedom and democracy only after being marginalised by Mohammed Bin Salman’s ruthless consolidation of power (which built on a pre-existing trend).

The same scepticism is true many times over when related to CIA Director Gina Haspel, who personally supervised torture in the CIA torture and extraordinary rendition programme. Haspel was sent urgently to Ankara by Donald Trump to attempt to deflect Erdogan from any direct accusation of Mohammed Bin Salman in his speech yesterday. MBS’ embrace of de facto alliance with Israel, in pursuit of his fanatic hatred of Shia Muslims, is the cornerstone of Trump’s Middle East policy.

Haspel’s brief was very simple. She took with her intercept intelligence that purportedly shows massive senior level corruption in the Istanbul Kanal project, and suggested that Erdogan may not find it a good idea if intelligence agencies started to make public all the information they hold.

Whether Erdogan held back in his speech yesterday as a result of Haspel’s intervention I do not know. Erdogan may be keeping cards up his sleeve for his own purpose, particularly relating to intercepts of phone and Skype calls from the killers direct to MBS’ office. I have an account of Haspel’s brief from a reliable source, but have not been updated on who she then met, or what the Turks said to her. It does seem very probable, from Trump’s shift in position this morning to indicate MBS may be involved, that Haspel was convinced the Turks have further strong evidence and may well use it.

Meantime, the British government maintains throughout that, whatever else happens, British factories will continue to supply bombs to Saudi Arabia to massacre children on school buses and untold numbers of other civilians. Many Tory politicians remain personally in Saudi pockets, with former Defence Minister Michael Fallon revealed today as being amongst them.

It is of course extraordinary that Saudi war crimes in Yemen, its military suppression of democracy in Bahrain, its frequent executions of dissidents, human rights defenders, and Shia religious figures, even its arrests of feminists, have had little impact in the West. But the horrible murder of Khashoggi has caught the public imagination and forced western politicians to at least pretend to want to do something about the Saudis whose wealth they crave. I expect any sanctions will be smoke and mirrors.

Mohammed Bin Salman is no fool, and he realises that to punish members of his personal security detail who were just following his orders, would put him in the position of Caligula and the Praetorian Guard, and not tend to his long term safety. Possibly people will be reassigned, or there will be brief imprisonments till nobody is looking. If I were a dissident or Shia in Saudi Arabia who bore any kind of physical resemblance to any of the party of murderers, I would get out very quick.

With every sympathy for his horrible murder, Khashoggi and his history as a functionary of the brutal Saudi regime should not be whitewashed. Mohammed Bin Salman is directly responsible for his murder, and if there is finally international understanding that he is a dangerous psychopath, that is a good thing. You will forgive me for saying that I explained this back in March whilst the entire mainstream media, awash with Saudi PR cash, was praising him as a great reformer. For the Americans to deploy Gina Haspel gives us a welcome reminder that they are in absolutely no position to moralise. Whatever comes of this will not be “justice”. The truth the leads can reveal is much wider than the narrow question of the murder incident, as I hope this article sketches out. That the fallout derails to some extent the murder machine in Yemen is profoundly to be hoped.

October 25th Update

This video has been on all the major news networks, but I would like you to turn up the sound, watch the twitches and pay close attention to the very definite problems that the Crown Prince is having with his nose.

Here – apart from sniffing and a runny nose – from a treatment website is a list of some of the mental symptoms of cocaine abuse. An interesting take on the reckless Khashoggi assassination?

Mental state:
Euphoria
Overconfidence
Unusual excitement
Aggressiveness
Paranoia
Poor judgment

(Republished from CraigMurray.org by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:

    Yep, he’s as wild-eyed as Bobcat Goldwaithe. :)

  2. Art says:

    Gee – when are the Saudi royals going to become full-fledged men. They run around in pretty dresses and free flowing babushkas – forcing their women to cover their faces. If it were not for oil – they would still be riding camels – killing each other over waterholes.

    It is time for the Saudis royals to stop the preening, put on big boy pants, join humanity and accept world norms.

    Think Peace — Do No Harm — Art

  3. This is the best explanation I’ve read yet.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Paw
  4. In the era of fake news and false flag operations, was there a murder ?
    My state of mind has become to doubt anything.

  5. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:

    Like Mr. Murray’s information contrary to “Russia hacked our election!,” don’t hold your breath waiting for this to be anything but distorted in Establishment media.

    This article is a good way to introduce people who have been told that The Unz Review is a “[NPC pejorative] website.”

  6. Sean says:

    Not clear cut that MbS has been at the Charlie excessively: not much gurning or jaw clenching.

    I have not seen the video from inside the consulate, but have been shown stills which may be from a video. The most important thing to say is that they are not from a fixed position camera and appear at first sight consistent with the idea they are taken by a device brought in by the victim.

    Technically possible but not standard. He would have had to take steps beforehand to set up his Apple watch to transmit it to his mobile that he gave to his wife waiting outside before entering (visitors’ mobiles are checked into a security area when entering an embassy). And why would he do that if as reported he had ignored all the warnings he got about entering a Saudi embassy? I’ll tell you why: it was Khashoggi’s final act of treachery. I think he knew he was going to his death, he wanted to be murdered because that was the only way he could get back at MbS.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  7. He had a long term professional association with the Saudi security services which put him on the side of prolific torturers and killers for decades. That does not in any sense justify his killing.

    If serial torture and murder doesn’t justify killing someone, what would?

    • Replies: @Dave Bowman
    , @Anon
  8. Ypres guy says:

    Craig
    Wow no comments?!!!!!
    Great job. Still being ignored like our
    time on Bush commission.
    Jack

  9. Anon098 says:

    Haven’t Israelis set the standard for international assassinations? All the outrage when it’s done by Russia or Saudi Arabia seems a bit disingenuous at this point.

    • Replies: @Dave Bowman
  10. Unfortunately, Trump can’t walk back his exit of the JCPOA. If that agreement was still in play, he could warm things up with Tehran and use that to snub the Saudis. As it is, the US is bound to Saudi Arabia regardless of what they do and MbS knows it.

    • Replies: @Sean
  11. Much ado about nothing. That is their way. He was a traitor in their eyes. Nothing can be done and nothing can be changed, Even if present ruler Salmon would be changed that would not mean anything. Everything would remain the same.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  12. Erdogan and MBS are both killers and supporters of ISIS aka AL CIADA which is a creation of the U.S. and ISRAEL and BRITAIN and NATO and so both are proven killers and human scum and so if Erdogan and MBS could just turn on each other and beat each other to death that would be just great!

  13. Since the news first broke, the media has been at pains to convince us that Mohammed bin Salman ordered the murder-by-vivisection of Jamal Khashoggi. I’ve learned to ask why they want me to believe something, before I decide how much credence to give their stories.
    I personally find the “cover” story –

    Ambitious, overzealous bureaucrats induced aggressive intelligence operators to undertake a mission to return Mr Khashoggi to the Kingdom; by force, if necessary. When Khashoggi wised up too late, he made a violent scene and struggled to escape, with said struggle resulting in his unintentional, and regrettable, demise.

    - to be no more implausible than the media narrative.
    Three weeks on, I think that “evidence” of the sort that’s been bandied about so far could have been fabricated by any number of intelligence agencies.
    Would I put it past MbS to have ordered this, exactly as Recep Tayyip Erdogan asserts? Nope.
    Might the Turks be lying and (perhaps with outside assistance) fabricating evidence? Of course they might.
    Do I think MbS did it? I have no way to decide. My feelings on the matter are irrelevant.
    #RealzNotFeelz

    • Replies: @cassandra
  14. APilgrim says:

    KSA is an American Ally.

    Turkey has NEVER been a US Ally. Turkish Caliphate President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan can pound sand!

    So can the Washington Post.

  15. TheBear says:

    Definitely the prince definitely had some rails of liquid iron before the interview, man can also tell by the weird shifting low pitch of his voice. Hence the Escobar-esque hit. The moron thinks he is fucking Tony Montana with all that sweet daily yeyo.

  16. APilgrim says:

    Another radical Islamic Terrorist sympathizer is dead. Good!

    May they all die miserable deaths, and their remains be fed to dogs & hogs.

    “Insha’Allah” (God Willing, in Arabic: إِن شَاءَ اللَّهُ)

    • Troll: renfro
  17. Tyrion 2 says:

    It looks like he has a bit of a cold and no tissue. What’s he supposed to do? Pick his nose?

    He doesn’t look wired at all. He’s not on cocaine in that video.

  18. APilgrim says:

    Nothing that happened in the KSA Embassy, to an Arabian, occurred on Turkish soil. (FACT)

    The Turkish Caliphate has no jurisdiction, venue, or standing. (LAW)

    Turkey should be carved up like a Thanksgiving Bird. Restore Constantinople to Greece, & compensate the Armenian Christian families, for the WW-I era genocide. (IMHPO)

  19. Moi says:
    @Art

    By “world norms” I take it you mean Trump/American norms. LOL.

  20. Sean says:
    @Wally Streeter

    Trump leads a country that is well on the way to killing the economies of Iran and Saudi Arabia. They tried to make fracking unprofitable but failed. Fracking will make Saudi Arabia of little interest to anyone except Iran.

    Saudi Arabia knows the cheap money fueling US fracking is unlikely to stop, so MbS has to quickly make Saudi Arabia into a country with some kind of productive capacity, and get Iran neutralised somehow. He cannot do that and also make liberalizing changes to Saudi society at the same time, it would be too destabilising, Khashoggi was used to being a trusted insider and since his expulsion from those circles was intent on revenge even if he had to get himself murdered, which he literally seems to have done

    Israel is part of Trump’s new middle Eastern alliance in which the Palestinians are just a nuisance to the Saudis. Having Iran crushed would suit the Saudis and Trump will probably do it in order to make Israel a more completely Jewish state, thereby splitting the US open borders lobby.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  21. Sean says:
    @APilgrim

    You know Israel runs interference for Turkey on the Armenian Genocide, so now they will do something similar for their new pals in the Trump coalition to smash Iran: Saudi Arabia.

    • Agree: the grand wazoo
  22. wraith67 says:

    “MBS’ embrace of de facto alliance with Israel, in pursuit of his fanatic hatred of Shia Muslims, is the cornerstone of Trump’s Middle East policy.”

    That’s inaccurate. Sunni hatred for Shiites is 1400 years old, Saudi operations to counter Iran have been going on since 1979. Israeli strikes against Syrian forces has been going on since the 50s, but particularly after 67 and 73. The current alliance of convenience between the Saudis and Israelis at Syria’s expense started under the previous administration, our current involvement has more to do with deep state momentum. For the time being, Russia will limit the amount of meddling anybody is going to do over there. One can hope that after the mid terms, Trump will clean out more of the deep state, and finally extricate us from the dumpster fire that is the Middle East.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Rabbitnexus
  23. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @APilgrim

    Turkey’s been our ally since it joined NATO in 1952. Turkey’s been the historical enemy of Russia for a thousand years when the first Seljuk nomad bandit slave raiders arrived.

    Im glad Turkey’s becoming more Islamic and Erdogan is President because it gives anti White western civilization liberals less reason to demand Turkey join the EU.

    My thought on all of this is who cares. The Saudi ruler kills a Saudi dissident.

    Turkey’s using this to slam Saudi as leader of the Islamic world. So now we’ve got Turkey, Iran and Saudi all competing for leadership
    But Saudi’s got Mecca and Medina the holy of holies

    Buy their oil. Sell them our military and other products.

    • Replies: @Cassandra
    , @Anonymous
  24. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @APilgrim

    It would be nice to change the name back to Constantinople and turn Hagia Sophia back into a church.

    But won’t happen, sorry.

  25. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art

    I think pinning the scarf back is even worse than letting it hang over the shoulders and chest.

    Pretty color combination though. It’s classic for western women in summer, white dress red accessory. And the gingham check is classic. The whole effect is 1950s women’s fashion.

  26. Yo, Craig! What happened to Khashoggi’s CIA connections? Forgot those? How about his al-Qaida relationship going back to Afghanistan in the 1980s? Forgot that? Are you becoming a full-fledged limited hangout these days?

    https://spectator.us/media-jamal-khashoggi/

    Lots more on ‘what’s wrong with the Khashoggi picture’ at:

    https://ronaldthomaswest.com/2018/10/24/the-khashoggi-murder-howls/

    ps, Craig, speaking of the ‘dossier’, you’ve stated you’d met the guy that leaked the DNC mails, what’s the problem with naming Seth Rich? Cat got your tongue? Don’t want to pull Trump’s nuts out of the fire? In love with Hillary? Hate Russians? What’s up with that?

    https://ronaldthomaswest.com/2017/09/16/incompetent-espionage-wikileaks-iii/

    ^

    • Replies: @Cassandra
  27. Apart from the killing of an Arab by low level Arabs on the possible instructions of a high falutin Arab, who is also killing a lot more Arabs in a largely Arab country right next door with the help of a whole lot of non-Arabs in America and Israel, one gets the feeling that the non-Arab Erdogan is in it for a whole lot of Arab-gold as well… this temporary tempest in the Turkish teacup should die out sooner rather than later.

  28. Cassandra says:
    @APilgrim

    KSA is an Israeli stooge. Kushner is feeding him info and then going back to his leader Netyahu.

    At least Ergodan is nobody’s fool.

  29. Anon[409] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Saudi prince looks like Adam Sandler as an Ay-rab.

  30. Cassandra says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    Um the 80’s? Wasn’t that when Reagan was arming the mujahadeen, headed by Bin Laden? It’s not exactly a surprise or shock that any journalist would be connected with bin laden at that time, especially since we were ALLIED with him against Russia.

    Perspective.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  31. Cassandra says:
    @Anon

    We care because he worked for an American paper and was an American permanent resident, on his way to becoming a citizen. That’s supposed to mean something. Apparently it doesn’t, much like Rachel Corrie meant nothing. We are bought.

  32. “The key point is that European authorities turned a completely blind eye to the abductions in that BBC report, even when performed on European soil and involving physical force.”

    As I recall Uncle Sam was also kidnapping folks off European streets.

  33. @APilgrim

    Nothing that happened in the KSA Embassy, to an Arabian, occurred on Turkish soil. (FACT)
    The Turkish Caliphate has no jurisdiction, venue, or standing. (LAW)

    Yeah, there is that. I kinda thought it was a fly in the media’s ointment from the very start.
    Maybe that’s why the drumbeat of bad feelings against MbS – they know that there’s nothing else they can do, for the law of the real can’t touch him.
    #RealzNotFeelz

  34. Che Guava says:

    MbS typifies the ugliness of his clan. That they were incable of improvement through many centuries of kidnap, rape, and harems (fun fact for ignorant western feminists, the latter ‘custom’ remains very real and is a form of slavery, although all expenses paid, at least for a few) is telling.

    MbS is butt-ugly.

  35. @APilgrim

    ‘KSA is an American Ally.

    Turkey has NEVER been a US Ally…’

    There’s a pair of mildly ridiculous statements.

    How many Saudi troops died fighting at our side in Korea? Where did the 9/11 bombers come from?

    • Agree: Che Guava
  36. @Sean

    ‘You know Israel runs interference for Turkey on the Armenian Genocide, so now they will do something similar for their new pals in the Trump coalition to smash Iran: Saudi Arabia.’

    Dunno about that. The orchestrated media tempest implies Israel is behind the attacks on bin Salman — not trying to block them.

    Frankly, I don’t know what’s going on. However, my guess is that in some way, Israel is trying to blackmail Saudi Arabia into doing something. After all, she could call off the dogs anytime she wanted.

  37. Che Guava says:
    @Cassandra

    The comparison is inapt, and, unless you are very stupid, wilfull misdirection for propaganda purposes.

    • Replies: @2stateshmustate
  38. Bakr says:
    @Art

    ” forcing their women to cover their faces”

    Why do you assume that women can’t have any faith ? or is it just because you think there’s no God and no afterlife so should everyone ?

    Opinions such as these which are in turn are manipulated and presented in the western media as facts, play a large role in the support of the western wars on the muslim world.

    “Hay! look our soldiers are off to spread democracy, women will be free”

    • Replies: @Art
    , @NoseytheDuke
  39. Agent76 says:

    Oct 23, 2018 Breaking News: Sky News reveals the remains of murdered journalist Khashoggi have been found

    The body parts of murdered Jamal Khashoggi have been found, according to Sky sources.

    Oct 18, 2018 What the Media Is Not Telling You About Khashoggi The Missing Journalist

    In this video, we give you the latest breaking news on what the media is not telling you about Jamal Khashoggi

  40. @Colin Wright

    I’d also like to point out that the US generously saved the Saudi bacon in Desert Storm. Saddam was on a roll after taking over Kuwait and there was nothing stopping him from gobbling up Saudi Arabia too, except for Uncle Sam. This may have been entirely self-serving on the US part, but the Saudi royals were the direct beneficiaries. Since then, they have repayed us by supporting terrorism and imitating characters from Game of Thrones.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  41. niceland says:

    That is why, despite their desperate desire to do so, no Western country has been able to maintain support for Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman.

    I find this very hard to believe. Out of all the controversies the U.S MSM has been able to ignore in the past – why not this case? What makes this special?

    With the Khashoggi murder on the front pages of the New York Times and Washington Post websites for several days – I sense no hesitation or desire to cover anything up. Remember these are the mouthpieces of “real” U.S foreign policy.

    I think the opposite is true. The Saudis did something wrong, over-stepped their boundaries in some way – and needed a slap on the wrist to put them in place again. This murder case is very convenient because it contains very little risk of backfire against the U.S foreign policy and involvement. Unlike for example, the war in Yemen. So it was decided to release the attack dogs and make this front page material with enormous coverage.

    It’s working great, soon Mohammed Bin Salman will be either powerless or dancing to the tune of the U.S behaving like the gas-station manager he really is!

    • Agree: Digital Samizdat
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    , @Rufus
  42. renfro says:
    @APilgrim

    I think I am finally in favor of banning commenters as stupid as APilgrim ..they do nothing but litter the threads with useless brainless farts.

    Turkey has U.S. tactical nuclear weapons that are based at the Incirlik Air Base in southern Turkey. Turkey and the US share the “key’ to the nukes, although I am sure there are some safe guards on the US side…..and by Turkey also.

    That and being a member of NATO makes it pretty much an ally.

    We do not share our nuclear weapons with our “ally” Saudi.

    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
  43. cassandra says:
    @Macumazahn

    Do I think MbS did it? I have no way to decide. My feelings on the matter are irrelevant.

    Very good point, with one quibble: I suggest that your feelings on the matter are exactly what propagandists find most relevant.

    Thanks for the reminder to maintain awareness, and to keep a sense of the actual evidence behind proposed explanations. I myself am prone to accept Craig Murray as sincere, given that he paid his dues in Uzbekistan, so I do tend to give him a bit more credence than otherwise. But similar reporting, about Haspel’s actual purpose from a second source, would be helpful.

  44. @Cassandra

    We care because he worked for an American paper and was an American permanent resident, on his way to becoming a citizen.

    This Middle East Eye is reporting that Jamal Khashoggi is a dual US-Saudi citizen. In this case an USA citizen enters KSA consulate in Turkey, so the matter becomes more complicated as it now involves both USA and Turkey. It gives jurisdiction to both USA and Turkey.

    Khashoggi, a dual US-Saudi citizen, had his passport restricted by the kingdom earlier this year.

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/erdogan-khashoggi-475771687

    This is the first time, I am hearing that Khashoggi is a USA citizen and just not a green card holder. I do believe that green card holders are issued a USA White Passport instead the regular Blue One. On which passport Khashoggi entered Turkey.

    Maybe, the esteemed Craig Murray can verify this fact. It appears the matter is still cooking, as at the same time Erdogan is not remaining quiet.

  45. Che Guava says:
    @niceland

    Well, it is somewhat related to why weedy ‘Antifa’ thugs are never called out for their violence.

    In the Khassiogi case (not that I by any means consider him anything but an evil person), the Saudis seem to have treated him in the same way as the Colombians were treating Tony Montana’s (Al Paciono, with his ridiculous attempted latino accent) captured gang member.

    Directed by Brian de Palma. Very controversial at the time (I was first seeing part of it a little later, at an art gallery after the art show had closed, the chainsaw scene was the focus).

    There is the apt saying that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. I for one, would be delighted to hear that a member, or several members, of the House of al Saud met their deaths in such a way, even more so if it were many.

    Their whole claim to be ‘royal’ is a crock of poo, there are much over a thousand of them.

    Not being a moslem, no great loss, except for the historic sites, that, unless I fake a religion that I despise, I am never allowed to see. Even for a moslem, though. the Saudi destruction of historical sites should be setting off alarm bells.

    Funny that UNESCO has never noted this clear and recent vandalism.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  46. @Cassandra

    “going back to the 80s” isn’t limited to the 80s, ‘perspective’ trollina.

  47. Vojkan says:

    Well, Kashoggi wanted to dismember Syria. He ended up dismembered post-mortem. Karma’s a bitch.

  48. @Si1ver1ock

    If serial torture and murder doesn’t justify killing someone, what would?

    That would be a public trial, conviction and sentencing by a properly-constituted court of law.

    You’re welcome

    • Replies: @Si1ver1ock
  49. @Anon098

    I hope you’re not suggesting that it’s one rule for Israel and another rule for everyone else ?

    That would be anti-Semitic. Or so I’m told by Jews.

  50. Art says:
    @Bakr

    “forcing their women to cover their faces”

    Why do you assume that women can’t have any faith.

    Covering one’s face — is it faith — or is it force?

    If it is force — then it is totally wrong – period!

    In backwards Saudi – it is FORCE!

    Once again – Saudi Royals should stop their preening and pompous play-acting — wearing pretty dresses and long flowing headscarves, flailing about with decorative swords. They need to put on big boy pants and join the world and act like normal serious humans.

    Saudi royals are just trouble making anachronisms, doing no one any good but themselves. Considering the oil wealth that they have – they are doing a poor job of running their country. Worse, they are leading the worlds Muslims, down the dark path of Wahhabism.

    Why do these bastards get any respect?

    Think Peace — Do No Harm — Art

  51. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Craig is very much annoyed about they did to previous ruler Salmon. He was replaced by a ( female ) Sturgeon. Craig is trying to be loyal – he’s even bought a house in Edinburgh – but Sturgeon is a caviar politician and is cozying up to the UK Foreign Office and NATO.

  52. @Che Guava

    Senor Guava, you have touched on a very important point. The Saudis are upstarts – they only conquered Hijaz as recently as 1926. Like you, I am no admirer of the Religion Of Violence. However, as a lover of historic architecture, it disturbs me when it is destroyed. The historic record is diminished – even in places like Mecca where proper historic research is precluded.
    Wahhabism promotes the destruction of historic places, even those directly associated with their prophet Mohammed. See Below

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia

    Until Saudi Arabia ceases to exist, the likes of Unesco will not care. Even afterwards, I doubt things will change.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  53. How does the Kashoggi murder warrant so much press? Given Jew control over media, what’s the con here?
    More fesces-throwing at Trump before mid-terms? A foreign policy mess can be used to insinuate Trump is weak.
    Other than that…..one more dead body in the Middle East. Now if different people were ending up dead, like Israelis, that might be news.

  54. Skeptikal says:
    @Art

    I think they look totally ridiculous in their gingham tablecloths with a plastic thing on top.
    Especially framing all that black facial hair.
    Add a shit-eating grin.
    Gross.
    Wonder how many MBS’s we’ll see on the streets of Halloween this year.

  55. @Dave Bowman

    Things were different in the old days.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  56. Gill says:

    Right on for most of the article. There is a meme out there that MBS was killed in April when there was a shooting incident in one of the Royal Palaces and he went off the radar for some time thereafter. Also that the current MBS is a body double.
    No personal info whatsoever, I watch from afar. However I would not be surprised if it was the case; the pics of MBS from earlier show charisma while the latter ones indicate a dissolute individual, the beard and the headdress remain the same but the spark seems to have gone.

  57. mcohen says:

    The great tom cruise uttered these immortal words as he came… “show me the money”.With saudi arabs this is pertinent.
    I therefore also utter as i come but instead “show me the body” is more appropriate.No body no cry.

    So as the beatles uttered “come together over me” let us not fall for this arabic sleigh of banana.you might slip on a peel and end up looking utterly foolish.

  58. @Che Guava

    It’s always important to bring up the deliberate murder of a courageous young American woman by a vile smirking Israeli. One day sooner or later this murder will be avenged. Most likely after American men realize this act by the Israelis was a calculated act of contempt towards them.

    • Agree: Che Guava
  59. Sean says:

    The bomb detonated near the apartment block of Sheikh Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah, a Shia cleric who the Israelis had falsely told the trusting Americans was behind the truck bombings of the American Embassy, the Marine barracks and then the Embassy again despite the massive security around it (Iranians had built a mock up and trained the drivers). Anyway, after the CIA station head managed to get himself kidnapped, CIA director William Casey took the money from Prince Turki bin Faisal Saudi and hired an ex SAS regiment businessman whose local muscle did the bombing for money, missing their target but killing 80 women and girls in a Muslim neighberhood

    Khashoggi probably helped plan that, he was the right hand man of Prince Turki bin Faisal Saudi Arabia’s General Intelligence Directorate chief. Bob Woodward’s book Veil revealed that the head of the CIA had got millions in untraceable funds from Turki bin Faisa for the operation to kill Sheikh Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah

  60. @Cassandra

    I am with you on this one. You are right those two are wrong, or they are propagandist shills.

  61. anon[335] • Disclaimer says:

    “There is considerable evidence pointing to the fact that the U.S.’ response to the Khashoggi affair is likely to be determined, not by any Saudi government responsibility for Khashoggi’s fate, but instead whether or not the Saudis choose to follow through with their promise to purchase the $15 billion U.S.-made THAAD missile system or its cheaper, Russia-made equivalent, the S-400.

    “According to reports, the Saudis failed to meet the deadline for their planned THAAD purchase and had hinted in late September that they were planning to buy the S-400 from Russia instead…

    “There is every indication that the U.S. is not in fact seeking to punish the Saudis for their alleged role in Khashoggi’s apparent murder but instead to punish them for reneging on this $15 billion deal to U.S. weapons giant Lockheed Martin, which manufactures the THAAD system.”

    http://aanirfan.blogspot.com/2018/10/khashoggi-and-israel.html

  62. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cassandra

    He was an occasional contributor to the Washington Post. American citizens are sometimes killed abroad, usually in the course of robbery or rape and it doesn’t get any coverage.

    Aliens residing in America sometimes get killed visiting their home countries and no one notices.
    If you or I go to Mexico next winter and get killed in a robbery no one but family and friends will care.

    The hysteria about it is just part of Blane Trump for everything.

  63. Very good piece, well written and to the point. My advice to the 15 cohorts who savaged kashoggi is to get the hell out of dodge. Take the hint from what happened to Seal Team 6, the killers of the fake Osama Bin Laden. Something about an helicopter and a RPG.
    Could there be a day in our future when leaders of nations, and their corrupt hacks, are held accountable for murder(s)? While well over a million Americans are doing time, and a lot of it, for crimes that come nowhere close to the psychotic nature of those the MIC in America is guilty of. I forgot who said “kill 1 man and you’re a murderer, kill a million and you’re a statesman”.
    Ah, forget about it!

  64. Paw says:
    @TimeTraveller

    That is why they had to go berserk with Scripal to cover up more gruesome bloodthirsty murders.

  65. @Sean

    Would it not be consistent with Khashoggi’s cunning and sophistication that he carried more than one phone so that one of them could be checked in as you say? Not that it would necessarily work if he had to pass off his backup phone as something else when going through airport type scanners.

  66. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @Si1ver1ock

    And consider how many Americans would have had/have such a “long term professional association”.

  67. @Sean

    As usual some substance to consider though I find it hard to believe Khashoggi would stage the death he suffered with fiancé outside as his revenge. (Yeah, yeah, anyone with standard internet blog perverted imagination can say that it just shows how incredibly cunning and well thought out Khashoggi’s plan of revenge was). But, more prosaically, may I ask for an elaboration of your last sentence’s connection of a “more completely [securely?] Jewish state” and the “splitting of the US open borders lobby” to aid my tired brain. Logic tells me that rich employers of agricultural laborers and low part Indian techies might be split from ideological Jewish supporters of multiculturalising America?????

    • Replies: @Sean
  68. @Sean

    You prompt a wild but logical thought. Do you think that Israel has compiled a devastatingly complete dossier on the Armenian genocide so as to be able not only to run interference for Turkey but blackmail it if need be? Any evidence? Sources?

    • Replies: @Avery
  69. Anonymous[241] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Splendid. Our late developing prentice polymath delivers again. But why, as usual, spoil pretensions to scholarship with crass and tendentious ideological intrusions like “nomad bandit slave traders” on top of vaguely plausible chronology (forget about Rus: but do try and remember that Manzikert was 1071 and a defeat of Byzantium)? If you want to bring slave trading and ethnicity into your polemics why not recognise the primacy of the Vikings?

  70. Anonymous[241] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    No the media focus on it has a lot to do with the dramatic uncertainty of the end of the story which may justify production of a few more episodes. How will the hero/villain resolve his dilemma? Will America lose arms contracts worth [pluck a figure out of the air and don't worry about the zeros or the signatures] involving 40,000, 60,000 500,000, a million jobs depending on which presidential emission you catch?

  71. @Anon

    Sorry! You do not know what you talking about.
    Rachel was not alone she was part of the group of young Americans protesting the Israelis bulldozing down Palestinian homes.
    But she was the only one standing in front of the bulldozer.
    And the crazy Russian Jew bulldozed her down together with Palestinian house.
    She encountered very gruesome death.
    It was deliberate political murder.
    Facts are facts.

    • Agree: renfro
  72. The US must rank as one of the most sadistic, murderous, hateful and hypocritical countries on the planet, hands down. At least post-WWII. With all the regime changes, countries destroyed, lives terminated directly or by proxy and supporting equally murderous regimes is beyond tragic. Still, we will continue to be treated to the usual drivel about human rights and democracy and an incredibly large percentage of its population cheerfully swallowing this dreck. A country that deliberately targeted and killed some 59 journalists during the Iraq war cannot have the moral ground to criticize its client state of nomadic kings for murdering one journalist.

  73. Sean says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Noam Chomsky said behind the scenes Israel objects to the Armenian genocide being included with the Holocaust, thereby chilling the discussion of the Armenian one as a genocide in international discussions. Israel and Turkey are the axis of evil for Arabs.

    Khashoggi would have needed to go through some complicated technical stuff to set his smartwatch up to do what it’s said it did (transmit audio and video of what was happening inside the consulate to the phone he left outside with his girlfriend so there would be a record). And he it seems to me he would have had to switch on the recording too. He presumably had some reason for thinking the tale of what happened to him inside the consulate might not be told otherwise. But why go in then?

    Many alarmed friends advised Khashoggi against going into the consulate, and he knew what they were capable of having been involved in much Saudi intelligence ruthlessness himself over the years so his ignoring the warnings is puzzling for anyone who thinks he was happy in exile as a mere journalist. I think he was coming to the realization that, rather than the key player in Saudi foreign policy he had been for decades, he was only going to be listened to by foreigners. Khashoggi did not look physically or mentally healthy of late, and he had cut himself off from his wife and children. You don’t fall in love at his age; again, he looked unhappy enough to catch the bus. While probably less than certain he surely at least suspected what was going to happen, if only in the back of his mind. Yet he still went in.

    Logic tells me that rich employers of agricultural laborers and low part Indian techies might be split from ideological Jewish supporters of multiculturalising America

    The former would be unable to get change of a dime without the latter. Right now with the Arabs of the occupied territories Israel is on course to be an apartheid or non-Jewish state as Ehud Barak made clear some time ago when there was still enough land left for a final settlement the Palestinians could conceivably accept. The Palestinians are being told to come to the table now or be prepared to lose everything, but they will probably hold out until Trump is gone. If Israel is walked into transferring them to the already existing Palestinian state there will by uproar and the diaspora Jews will feel compelled to come to israel’s aid, and they can hardly do that without taking the steam out of multiculturising America..

  74. anon[269] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    That little shitty country is given too much credit because that little shitty country is given too much credit .

    Israel has dossier !! Yes , dossier on Iraq, Syria, Sarin canister , Iran ‘s green revolt, Iran’s underground Sarin Canister , Nigeria- Iraq underground Uranium canister , Italy embsasyy embassy burglary , Anthrax shipping by some Phillip guy ( big canister )
    I remember seeing them presented by Israel to IAEA few times , and by Netanyahu few times , to American Congress , UN , and to CNN / Foxnews .

    Morons will believe anything Israel presents but those morons have been now safely confined to USA .

    Using fear of canister to wage war is facing the reality that its 911 no more .

  75. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @wraith67

    “One can hope that after the mid terms, Trump will …”

    Hope & Change 2.0

    Keep voting, sheep!

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  76. @Art

    Kashoggi is just another, of many, murdered Journalists so WHY so many headlines and so much space about him in news sources– DISTRACTION, of course, while Israel is, once more slaughtering and destroying, in PALESTINE : https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/israeli-jets-hit-80-targets-gaza-rocket-fire-protests-181027060228965.html and https://www.rt.com/news/442397-gaza-rockets-fire-israel/ and https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/10/27/578223/Israel-Gaza-Strip-Palestine and https://southfront.org/israel-accuses-assad-regime-irans-quds-force-of-gaza-escalation-kicks-off-new-round-of-airstrikes/ and this pic shows what appears to be a TACTICAL “mini” Nuke being used on Gaza: https://www.rt.com/news/442409-gaza-idf-attack-hospital/ Radiation kills long after the “War” ends !
    “Divide and Conquer”- “War by Deception”

  77. @anonymous

    In September 2003 I said to people who would take note of it that America lacked the military and economic strength, and above all the political stamina, to successfully finish what it had undertaken. (I don’t think I said “without it first having finished with Afghanistan as I possibly should have). Now America certainly hasn’t the military and economic strength to take on as many enemies as Trump wishes to or even perhaps to get away with disregarding friends. While it is true that political stamina for war hasn’t proved to be the problem it was when there was conscription for Vietnam and the deaths in combat were ten times as high the prospect of high US casualties will be a major limiting factor in America’s foreign relations as bullying and bluster.

  78. Avery says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    {Do you think that Israel has compiled a devastatingly complete dossier on the Armenian genocide so as to be able not only to run interference for Turkey but blackmail it if need be}

    ‘devastatingly complete dossier’: that’s a good one.
    Of course there is no such thing: there is no “smoking gun”.
    The ‘complete dossier’ is the long list of photographic evidence, eyewitness accounts, research,….
    The latest that came out is by Prof. Taner Akçam (a Turk historian): [Killing Orders: Talat Pasha’s Telegrams and the Armenian Genocide (Palgrave Studies in the History of Genocide)Jan 31, 2018 by Taner Akçam]

    Israel runs interference for Turkey re AG, because Israel and Turkey were buddy-buddies for decades, before Islamist AKP came to power. Erdogan scrambled things some, but Turkey and Israel are still working together. They kissed and made up after the Mavi Marmara incident, and its back to same-old, same-old under the table.

    Jewish diaspora (politicians, NGOs*,…) overwhelmingly also run interference on AG for a couple reasons: first is for the benefit of Israel and its ties to Turkey. Second is to maintain the alleged “exclusiveness” of the Jewish Holocaust. There are notable exceptions in the Jewish denialist campaign: for example, Prof Israel Charney in Israel is a very vocal and public critic of his government’s policy vis-a-vis the AG. Here in the US several big-name Jewish-American politicians are strongly against the denialist policies of their colleagues, but can’t get traction due to the overwhelming opposition of Jewish NGOs and such.

    _______________
    * for decades, hypocritical ADL, which lectures and scolds everyone and his brither, denied the AG while repellent Abe Foxman was the head-cheese. E.g. in 2007 Foxman fired New England regional ADL director Andrew H. Tarsy, because Tarsy publicly objected to Foxman’s policy of denial of the Armenian Genocide. Even today ADL does not unequivocally acknowledge AG: after Foxman retired, they issued some statement using weasel words to appear not to deny it, but not to acknowledge it either. Nobody bought their charade: the vile idiots are too clever by half.

  79. @Colin Wright

    Where did the 9/11 bombers come from?

    Tel Aviv?

  80. @Bakr

    I always understood that ME women cover their faces due to the insecurities of ME men not because of faith. Doesn’t the faith require women to be modest but not specify that faces be covered?

  81. @Wally Streeter

    What evidence do you have that Saddam had any designs on KSA? He annexed Kuwait, who, it is known (even the Americans eventually admitted) were in fact stealing Iraqi oil (as Iraq had alleged). But there is no basis in the stupid Hitler analogies (which are actually stupid when applied to Hitler as well) invoked by the usual suspects in the US.

    • Replies: @Wally Streeter
  82. All nations in the digital age have influence programs working the social media and comments space. How many/which of the commenters here are Saudi (or Israeli/NSA/Turkish/Russian/Chinese) agents engaged in their respective “perception management” efforts?

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  83. The names of Khashoggi or wanna be sultan do not belong in the same sentence with truth. The fact that they are here in the same sentence shows that rabid dog policies of the US elites succeeded in making the world a crazy place.

  84. @APilgrim

    I’m generally opposed to more US interventions in the Mideast. The wars for Israel — Iraq, Libya, Syria, (and the proposed war against Iran) — have all been counter-productive f*uck-ups. In contrast, a war to take down the Saudi abomination would be exceptionally rational, justified, and productive.

    The fifteen Saudi 911 hijackers, Saudi support for them during their training here in the US, and the Saudi support for Wahabbi madrassas teaching Radical Islamic Terrorism across the Muslim world is reason enough to send in the US marines and extirpate Saudi medieval barbarism. It is a cancer that quite simply has no place in the modern world.

    Seize Saudi assets worldwide, and then ***TAKE THE FRIKKING OIL***. And use the wealth/oil revenue for constructive purposes. For instance, to bring the Muslim world into modernity or to buy out the Palestinians, ending the I/P conflict.

    • Replies: @Rabbitnexus
  85. Che Guava says:
    @Verymuchalive

    Thank you, Verymuch,

    I don’t need to read the WP article. Have been keeping track, also re. the actions of their (and the U.S.A. and Israel’s) friends in Syria.

    There is always that big rock under a giant tablecloth in the centre of the stinky cloud revolving around it, if they are *really*, *really* sincere about their beliefs, a few men with just rock drills and simple explosives could destroy it in a few hours, a few days if they wanted to control noise levels.

    They can then replace it with a block of styrofoam and put the tablecloth back, after all, that rock was a centre of pagan pilgrimage, so if they are consistent, it should go even more than any mediaeval houses, tombs, etc., and by the same treatment as the quite recently destroyed ancient idols.

    It is just another idol.

    It would be nice if this idea were to enter their feverish brains, they may even go to work on it!

    There is that stupid theory that it is the remnant of a meteorite, but one big enough to have left such a big remnant behind would also have left a huge crater, remaining as a geological feature now.

    I am sure that you would have seen photos of Mecca of now, it looks so stupid, moslem Disneyland, or boogie wonderland, the only reasons it is not triggering a mass-apostasy are various forms and levels of coercion, and some people and sub-humans just loving a sanction for evil.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  86. renfro says:

    or to buy out the Palestinians, ending the I/P conflict

    That’s the Kushner and Netanyahu plan.
    Are you Jewish or Israeli?

  87. @Jeff Davis

    Not so much agents as idle young men posing as Americans.

  88. Let the Turks have their empire back in exchange for taking back the Muslims now settled in the West and keeping the peace and restoration of Constantinpole. I Assure YOU THEY Can Solve The Arab issue

  89. @Che Guava

    The Kaaba is one of the very few original ( i e Pre-1926 ) parts of Mecca left. Much the same for Medina. Wahhabism regards reverence for old buildings, even associated with Muhammed, as idolatry. So they must be demolished. It would have demolished the Kaaba , too, but for fears of divine retribution.
    The outer suburbs are now concrete monstrosities. The buildings that have replaced Mecca and Medina’s historic cores are grotesque historical pastiche – Disneyland as you rightly called it.
    The Saudi Government is totally unique. It’s as if Stalin had kept the Kremlin and knocked down the rest of Moscow. I understand Mr G that you live in Tokyo. Imagine if they kept the Royal Palace and knocked the rest down.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  90. Vojkan says:
    @Si1ver1ock

    Maybe some of us fancy themselves for being a little more civilised than in the old days when heads rolled and horses were sent to the four cardinal points to compel heretics to gather their senses. Obviously, whatever antipathy Kashoggi inspires me, and he was one heck of an antipathic character, Saudis haven’t moved forward in time.

  91. @Wally Streeter

    Uh, that was a desperate maneuver (and stupid, Saddam’s incompetence as a military leader is well-known) after Desert Storm had commenced, i.e. well after the invasion of Kuwait. In no way supports ridiculous claims that Iraq had grand designs on the Gulf.

    • Replies: @Wally Streeter
  92. Druid says:

    The Saudi government and the Ziofascist are two peads of the same pod!

  93. Druid says:

    You and the guava are a couple of ignoramuses

  94. @wraith67

    There is no alliance of convenience the Saudis are close cousins of the Zionists. They’ve been in bed since the Rothschild front man, Col Lawrence (of Arabia) brought their gang of sand pirates (recent converts to Islam from Turkish Donmeh Jewish past) together with the outcaste Wahhabi sect and gave them the weapons (40,000 Lee Enfield’s and financial backing (annual stipend of 10,000 British pounds at the time) to take the land today known as Saudi Arabia and to hold it as the Ottoman Empire was reduced to rubble. At the time the Roths knew about the oil of course. The Saudis are WATCH DOGS and not even royal except by Bankers’ declaration.

  95. @Jeff Davis

    You evidently do not understand the significance of Mekkah and Medina. The Wahhabis may not even be real Muslims, it matters not. They are PERMITTED to remain as caretakers so long as they do not stop Muslims from going on Hajj. I am not sure the USA and gang has the intelligence or subtlety to administer such a minefield as occupying them would entail. Nobody will defend the Saudis, but they do not own the holy places, they simply manage to avoid raising the spectre of an Islamic uprising by observing very specific rules and adhering to these no matter what other abominations they introduce. The USA couldn’t manage that. The USA is a one trick pony. Uncle Sam owns a cosh and not even one gram of intelligence or tactical ability. It would be engulfed in a whole other sort of Armageddon even by trying.

  96. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Yes and no. The Saudis most definitely felt that Saddam was a huge threat after he took over Kuwait. They also knew that they would last 5 minutes against the Iraqi Army without help. Fortunately for the Saudi royal family, the US provided a security guarantee as their end of the petrodollar bargain.

    Did Saddam have grand designs on the Gulf? Maybe not. But his successful invasion and takeover of Kuwait must have tasted sweet after 8 bloody and frustrating years fighting the Iran-Iraq War. Had he been allowed to consolidate his position in Kuwait, who knows what he might have done afterward.

    • Replies: @bjondo
    , @Wizard of Oz
  97. bjondo says:
    @Wally Streeter

    So many unknowns.
    Without American approval,
    Saddam does very little.

    5ds

  98. Che Guava says:
    @Verymuchalive

    Thank you Verymuch,

    your analogy is inapt, it is more like if everything but shopping-mall like spaces were eliminated.

    As for the palace, I don’t care too much either way, but there used to be a rule about no buildings overlooking it, the area around Tokyo station had a nice and graceful old-school totalitarian style (except for a few not overly tall buildings to the west) as a result, and was no less convenient for transit.

    I don’t think thankfully of the changes and tall buildings (of course, several retain the facades of the earlier buildings for the first few floors, a joke).

    Having nationalist friends, most don’t care, because they don’t like the Heisei emperor.

    I say, did anybody bother to ask him about the planning rules in a way where he can answer for himself?

    I know that nobody ever did, and when I challenged my closest smartest rightist friend on the point, he was embarassed. Same as me, he would prefer that the old rule had continued, better line to the city centre, and he knows that the emperor was never really asked about the new and dull urban development.

    Oh well, no use crying over spilt milk.

    The worst of the ruling class have some hope (I know the wife wed is a drama queen, like Dianna, but I am pretty sure that she will not run after a lover of camels and goats, as Di did.

    In any case, the perpetually ruling Liberal Democrat Party doesnt really give a damn, and they will be glad when the Heisei Emperor steps down.

    I hope that his daughter-in-law really steps up the psychosis to Di Spencer levels.

  99. The Turkish account of the murder of Khashoggi given by President Erdogan is true, in every detail. Audio and video evidence exists and has been widely shared with world intelligence agencies, including the US, UK, Russia and Germany

    And you know this because….. Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and the secret proof was shared with all the right intelligence agencies?

    Here a coupla questions – who benefits from having that too-big-for-his-boots toyboy ousted?
    And when did Erdogan stop being a snake?

    • Agree: Ronald Thomas West
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    , @Iris
  100. @Cat Pillar

    Yes. The Saudis are barbaric, no question, and while the accusations here are quite believable, there is absolutely no justification for taking Erdogan’s word for it.

  101. Iris says:
    @Cat Pillar

    ” Here a coupla questions – who benefits from having that too-big-for-his-boots toyboy ousted?
    And when did Erdogan stop being a snake?”

    - Craig Murray’s information is very likely correct. It is believed that the Turks have bugged the Saudi Consulate and have vast evidence of Mr Kashoggi’s murder. See economic commentator Alasdair Macleod at 21:55 in the video (the economic analysis, by the way, is exceptionally interesting).

    - It is clear that MBS has been set up: humanist Western politicians never protested when the KSA air force killed hundreds of Yemeni schoolchildren.
    The reason for the set up is possibly the Saudis walking out one of the arm deals made with the President Trump to buy Russian S-400 missile systems instead.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  102. Miro23 says:
    @Iris

    - It is clear that MBS has been set up: humanist Western politicians never protested when the KSA air force killed hundreds of Yemeni schoolchildren.

    That’s how it looks. It’s 9/11ish – the MSM denunciation was too immediate, too coordinated, too doubt free and too well informed. I assume that the US deep state/Israel spent quite some time working on the Saudi consulate setting up the microphones and cameras (ref. the bizarre Khashoggi i-phone story??). They knew exactly what was going to happen (interesting to see who was recently working on that building), and they probably walked MbS into the trap, the same as they did with Khashoggi.

    Khashoggi was a dispensable supporter of the Palestinians, and MbS needed a big warning about who was in charge – with no more talk with the Chinese about a Petro/Yuan (they buy 75% of Saudi oil exports) and buying Russian air defense equipment.

    That ties in with the v.good interview with Alasdair Macleod. US economic power has mostly gone, and it is facing an almost terminal economic crisis if it can’t maintain the status of the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency. The US HAS TO be the unit of account for the oil trade and they’ll go to war for it by neutralizing Iraq, Libya, Iran etc. The US economy alone can’t justify the dollar at anything like its present value.

    The problem is that China (and Russia) want to get out of the US dollar and are doing so. They’re not as easy to intimidate as MbS (although they’re trying – Russian hacking etc.) and they have to be brought back in line.

    In the longer run, the US dollar is finished, and the US faces serious inflation – probably to 25%p.a.or more, but it could slide into hyperinflation if the administration tries meet its salary, pension and welfare commitments + all the rest of the special interest spending

    • Agree: Iris
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Iris
  103. @Wally Streeter

    Indeed who would have counted on Saddam not deciding to expand further if he had got away with his Kuwait adventure?

    • Replies: @anon
  104. @Miro23

    A very promising thriller – at least two separate novels and a 7 part TV series is on the cards – but your agent is being told by your publisher that there are a few loose ends that the nitpicking reader/viewer might grumble about. Are there any dancing Israelis? No, well can we get round Israelis not being picked up on CCTV like the Saudi assassins? So…. notwithstanding Erdogan’s purges has Israel still got some suitably placed Turks in its service? OK but is the visit of Khashoggi to Istanbul and the consulate contrived or merely discovered in a timely way? And was it the Americans or Israelis tipping off the Saudis and giving the nod to assassination that got everyone on stage for the fat lady singing, or was it someone in the Saudi employ who was also working for Mossad and/or the CIA?

  105. Iris says:
    @Miro23

    Thanks for the very interesting comment.

    - It is common knowledge that when he took over, MBS used torture and even murder to make rich Saudis surrender their wealth and power. He is rumoured to have use private US military contractors to torture fellow Princes.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5108651/American-mercenaries-torturing-Saudi-princes.html

    Mr Khashoggi knew MBS is ruthless. Before setting foot in the consulate, he would have had re-assurance from a “trusted” party (the US?), and was possibly motivated by a honey trap.

    This sad story has “set up” all over. The only question is why?
    Many countries in the ME have expressed their intention to purchase the S-400 system, including Saudi’s foe Qatar. Also, the Russian-Iranian strategic relationship is much stronger than believed. So may be MBS is having second thoughts: he’d like to buy the best anti-missile system, and also keep Russia involved and happy as a protection against KSA’s arch-enemy Iran.

    - Regarding the economy, you are completely right. The global economy is ineluctably moving towards Asian supremacy. In 2015, the E7 larger emerging countries had already overtaken the G7, with 36.3% of world GDP for the former, and only 31.5% for the latter.
    The projections for share of world GDP show that the US economy and the Western block that supports it will have been undertaken by 2022. Not a long way away.

    Western economic “decline” is ineluctable and is just around the corner. That is one other thing MSM and politicians lie about. The life of Western middle/working classes will never get better, unless more equalitarian systems are established, which involve no less than political revolutions.

    A very interesting book on the subject by former diplomat Mahbubani:
    And also Alasdair Macleod’s lucid and outstanding articles on the rise of China:

    https://www.goldmoney.com/research/goldmoney-insights/the-biggest-of-big-pictures

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  106. anon[113] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    EXACTLY .

    This why 13 colonies should have been stopped by British ,French,Russian between 1800 and 1900 . This is why US should have been stopped after Vietnam after Nicaragua after Chile.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  107. @anon

    Not quite perfect analogies, but nice.

    • Replies: @anon
  108. @Iris

    I’m as resistant as most (until they have taken too many puffs of UR) to conspiracy theories but you are surely right to point out how odd it was that someone as savvy as Khashoggi would walk into such a slaugter. What rating do you give to the idea that it was his own plot? If we saw his up to date medical records there might be a plausible alternative explanation along those lines, n’est-ce pas?

  109. anon[308] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    To me it seems more than perfect. It is the yardstick on which invasion/crimes/aggressions should be judged, measured ,and if in excess of what US has done should be only then censured by the west .

  110. Rufus says:
    @niceland

    Trump is in office mainly to take the blame for the end of the petro dollar, vis a vis his personal business ties to KSA will be noted by historians as the reason they felt emboldened and unrestrained, and the better moral forces in Congress had to act against KSA, resulting in retaliatory end of petro dollar. Remember a few months ago, there was some journalist who staged his own death, with the explanation being he was trying to identify plotters preparing a real hit? Who really knows… Hopefully the petro-yuan results in a better world order, in our lifetime.

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