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JASTA Opens Many Doors
Will Israel be sued for 9/11?
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By overwhelming margins the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives voted on September 28th to override President Barack Obama’s veto of the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act (JASTA). Obama had noted that the Act would have negative consequences for U.S. officials overseas as it establishes the principle that governments can be held accountable in the courts for what they do. Prior to this legislation Washington generally respected the principle of sovereign immunity, which means in practice that governments resolve issues between themselves by negotiation, not through litigation.

With Congress now demanding foreign government accountability it is reasonable to assume that other countries might respond in kind by establishing reciprocity based on the language in JASTA, which would mean that serving or former American officials might be detained and tried for criminal actions undertaken by the U.S. in its war on terror. It might also lead to other suits against the United States government that would result in demands for what is already being described as “intrusive discovery” of documents relating to clandestine American operations overseas. In a letter President Obama has described JASTA as allowing foreign litigants to “second-guess our counterterrorism operations and other actions that we take every day” while Secretary of Defense Ash Carter assailed the “ability of foreign litigants to seek classified intelligence and analysis.” CIA Director John Brennan denounced the “associated risks to our national security,” adding that the bill harbored “grave implications” for national security with a “downside [that is] potentially huge.”

So-called State Sponsors of terrorism Syria, Iran and Sudan can already be sued in American courts but JASTA considerably broadens the playing field to permit additional litigation. Supporters of the Act insist that their intention is only to enable suits directed against Saudi Arabia, which might have been either complicit or negligent in its dealings with the alleged terrorists who carried out 9/11, 15 of whom were Saudis, but the language is actually much broader than that. The actual text, which does not specifically name Saudi Arabia, reads: “A foreign state shall not be immune from the jurisdiction of the courts of the United States in any case in which money damages are sought against a foreign state for physical injury to person or property or death occurring in the United States and caused by an act of international terrorism in the United States.”

The Act reproduces the U.S. Code definition of “international terrorism” which “means activities that (A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, and the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.”

I am all for the United States and Saudi Arabia (and others) being held accountable for war crimes and other unlawful behavior to include drones, renditions, torture and target assassinations but it will almost certainly be difficult to prove “knowing or reckless” criminal intent in court even with the new legislation. Also the Act opens up a Pandora’s box of possibilities that I am sure the Congressmen were not thinking of when they cast their votes. While the bill was drafted in such a fashion as to make an unnamed Saudi Arabia the actual target it also can be used against Pakistan, which may have funded the hijackers, and even Germany, where some of those involved in 9/11 lived for a time. It can plausibly be claimed that Islamabad and Berlin had some prior knowledge of the attack which they chose not to share, making them complicit, and the respective governments would have to appear in a U.S. court to demonstrate their innocence. In so doing, they might even demand in their defense that the United States government produce documentary evidence regarding what really did occur on 9/11, something the White House would surely want to avoid.

But the potentially biggest secondary target of the new legislation would without a doubt be Israel. The Israeli role in 9/11, insofar as can be determined, has never been seriously investigated at all and any suppositions or conclusions regarding its activities were never included in the final 9/11 Commission Report.

In 2001 Israel was running a massive spying operation directed against Muslims either resident or traveling in the United States. The operation included the creation of a number of cover companies in New Jersey, Florida and also on the west coast that served as spying mechanisms for Mossad officers. The effort was supported by the Mossad Station in Washington D.C. and included a large number of volunteers, the so-called “art students” who traveled around the U.S. selling various products at malls and outdoor markets. The FBI was aware of the numerous Israeli students who were routinely overstaying their visas and some in the Bureau certainly believed that they were assisting their country’s intelligence service in some way, but it proved difficult to link the students to actual undercover operations, so they were regarded as a minor nuisance.

But the hands-off attitude towards Israeli spying shifted dramatically when, on September 11, 2001, a New Jersey housewife saw something from the window of her apartment building, which overlooked the World Trade Center. She watched as the buildings burned and crumbled but also noted something strange. Three young men were kneeling on the roof of a white transit van parked by the water’s edge, making a movie in which they featured themselves high fiving and laughing in front of the catastrophic scene unfolding behind them. The woman wrote down the license plate number of the van and called the police, who responded quickly and soon both the local force and the FBI began looking for the vehicle, which was subsequently seen by other witnesses in various locations along the New Jersey waterfront, its occupants “celebrating and filming.”

The license plate number revealed that the van belonged to a New Jersey registered company called Urban Moving Systems. At 4 p.m. the vehicle was spotted and pulled over. Five men between the ages of 22 and 27 years old emerged. They were detained at gunpoint and handcuffed. They were all Israelis. One of them had $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock and another had two foreign passports. Bomb sniffing dogs reacted to the smell of explosives in the van. The driver told the police “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.” The men were detained at the Bergen County jail in New Jersey before being transferred the FBI’s Foreign Counterintelligence Section, which handles allegations of spying.

After the arrest, the FBI obtained a warrant to search the offices of the van’s registered owner, Urban Moving System of Weehawken, N.J. Papers and computers were seized. The company owner Dominick Suter, also an Israeli, answered FBI questions but when a follow-up interview was set up a few days later it was learned that he had fled the country for Israel, putting both his business and home up for sale. The office space and warehouse were abandoned. It was later learned that Suter has been associated with at least fourteen businesses in the United States, mostly in New Jersey and New York but also in Florida, which was determined to be a main focus for the Israeli intelligence operation in the U.S. that was directed against Arabs.

The five Israelis were held in Brooklyn, initially on charges relating to visa fraud. FBI interrogators questioned them for more than two months. Several were held in solitary confinement so they could not communicate with each other and two of them were given repeated polygraph exams, which they failed. The two men that the FBI focused on most intensively were believed to be Mossad staff officers and the other three were volunteers helping with surveillance. Even though the Israelis were not exactly cooperative, the FBI concluded from documents obtained at their office in Weehawken that they were targeting Arabs in New York and New Jersey, including at least two of the 9/11 hijackers.

There are a lot a dots all leading back to Israel that might well have been connected once upon a time, but the trail has grown cold. Police records in New Jersey and New York where the men were held have disappeared and FBI interrogation reports are inaccessible. Media coverage of the case also died, though the five were referred to in the press as the “dancing Israelis” and by some, more disparagingly, as the “dancing Shlomos.”

Inevitably, the George W. Bush White House intervened. After 71 days in detention, the five Israelis were released from prison, put on a plane, and deported. Now it is just possible that Mossad affiliated Urban Moving was indeed uninvolved in 9/11 but it also must be recognized that Israel had the means, ability and access required to bring down the World Trade Center using controlled pancake explosions. More than fifteen years later it is perhaps past time to reveal what exactly the FBI knew and currently knows about both the scale and modus operandi of Israeli espionage in the United States. Did Israel have critical intelligence either in broad outline or possibly in specific detail about 9/11 and let it happen to bind Washington more closely to it in a “global war on terror?”

Questions about just what happened on 9/11 will not go away. Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein has called for a new “independent investigation” because the Bush administration’s initial 9/11 inquiry was “dominated by members with an interest in protecting the reputation and careers of foreign affairs and intelligence communities.” It “was not given enough money, time, or access to relevant classified information.” That “classified information” could well include the role of Israel.

I am no lawyer, but it would seem to me that both Israel and Saudi Arabia might well be pretty good places to start in using litigation to determine just who could have been involved in what was to become the 9/11 terrorist attack. It would indeed be ironic if an Israel-loving Congress has, through its passage of JASTA to squeeze money out of the Saudis, also inadvertently opened the door to finding out just what the Mossad and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu were up to back in 2001.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: 9/11, Israeli spying, JASTA, Jill Stein 
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  1. Sorry, but until a tipping point of public opinion is reached demanding a full, open and independent investigation nothing will happen. Perhaps a simple but massive campaign of bumper stickers and handbills would help. Israel flouts international laws when it suits it anyway.

    • Replies: @yep
  2. N230099 says:

    “Dude…that was like 15 years ago…”

    • Replies: @Wally
    , @cucksworth
  3. edNels says:

    I for one, don’t want to here any more talk about Terror… etc.

    It’s nothing but crap.

    They got the Terror thing going on biggtime don’t worry! How’s about we drop a nuc on ya?

    How’s about we drop a few head choppers on ya?….!

    How’s about we…. who is we? who… Well we are the bastards that do what we want… and you can read about it in your leasure… We make the history that you yokals read about…. haha

  4. Now I remember this jerk (Philip Giraldi)…he’s our friendly CIA buddy who would never lie to us! I thought his name sounded familiar…I just couldn’t place it.

    I don’t follow most of these idiot bloggers, ’cause they’re not worth following, but this guy here is definitely controlled-op. There are mountains of evidence pointing straight at Israel, and to the Zionist elements within the US gov, and the MSM, which is completely controlled by Jews.

    • Replies: @DaveE
    , @Anonymous
  5. Roberto says:

    Who sent the anthrax in the mail?

  6. Durruti says:

    Another thought provoking article by Philip Giraldi

    The American Congress would never consciously do anything to bite the hand that feeds (bribes), it. However, inadvertently, it might have opened the door to letting the cat out of the bag (as we say).

    The 5 ‘Dancing’ Israelis, with their Zionist connections, have established a trail that leads all the way back to the Rothschilds and other powerful Zionist Oligarch families.

    There are known a set of undeniable facts:

    1. 5 Dancing Israelis were filming and celebrating the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11.

    2. The ‘Dancing’ Israelis were arrested by American Police – FBI and jailed for 71 days – before being (mysteriously) freed, without any explanation being given to the American people.

    3. These ‘Dancing’ Israelis blamed the Palestinians for being a, somehow (in some context), a “problem.” [The obvious problem – being that, as long as one Palestinian breathes, or the Human Race remembers Palestine, the Jewish People will be condemned for all conscious eternity for their ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian People, and their terrorist brutality against Palestinians, and all other Arab peoples.]

    “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”

    4. The political direction (intent), of the utterance by one of the 5 ‘Dancing’ Israelis, implies that the destruction of the Towers, and the deaths of thousands of Americans, was somehow a necessary act of Zionist solidarity with American imperialism. The statement implies (insists), that -The means justify the ends, and, conversely, the ends justify the means.

    5. The 5 ‘Dancing’ Israelis, by their utterances, as well as their actions, define with pinpoint accuracy, the meaning of and advocacy for, and practice of – Terrorism.

    6. Neither Killery Clinton, Casino Trump, or Jill Stein, will mention the 5 ‘Dancing’ Israelis, when they refer to the tragic act of Terror on 9/11.

    7. The 5 ‘Dancing’ Israelis, were/are agents of the Zionist land Thieves, who knew of the 9/11 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center – (in advance), before it happened. The ‘dancers’ were in position, with their Truck, and Cameras, in time to film the act of Terror against the American People. They were ready, and in place, and quite happy, and quite arrogant (as their statements to the arresting American Police prove).

    8. The 5 ‘Dancing’ Israelis’ utterance of “Your problems are our problems.” exposes a propagandistic misdirection lie on their part. It is, actually, a sad fact, that the Zionist Land Thieves, (who began their carnage of Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing in the Mid-East at Jericho, where they massacred every man, woman, and child, (as the walls came tumbling down), have made their “problems,” our, American problems, as well as the problems of every other nation on our Planet.

    It is recorded and celebrated in the Old Testament:

    The ‘crime’ of the occupants of Jericho (Palestine), that brought such evil terror down upon them, is that they were indigenous inhabitants – residing in an area that was desired by the ISIS-er terrorist Hebrews. The sad story of the extermination of the occupants of Jericho, is to be found in The Old Testament of the Christian Bible. The extermination of the occupants of Jericho, is celebrated, today, by song, in Temples and Churches, throughout the planet (including my Church). Hmmm! Once a terrorist, always…

    Conversely:

    1. Can Jews be brought back to the light? Can they be made willing to cease their search for those “30 pieces of silver?” Is there any hope for them? They have many weapons, but absolutely no morals. They have suborned our United States of America, all of Europe, and most everywhere else.

    2..The restoration of the American Republic is the absolute precursor for the Liberation of the Palestinians.

    3. Will we ever Restore our Republic, avenge the murder of our last Constitutional President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, his brother, and ML King, and so many others?

  7. Am I the only person who finds that the Syrian government can be sued in the USA for sponsoring terrorism to be both ironic and amusing? Just who is funding and supplying the Sunni terrorist head choppers and moderate head choppers inside Syria? None other than Uncle Sam and those paragons of religious and personal freedom, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Do we actually want to see Christian and other minorities in Syria subject to an ISIS like government? Apparently a significant part of the USG does. As Hilary Clinton has said, “The best way to help Israel deal with Iran’s growing nuclear capability is to help the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad.” Hilary Clinton, 100% for israel, as usual.

  8. Jon Gold says: • Website

    I did find an error in his report. He writes “It can plausibly be claimed that Islamabad and Berlin had some prior knowledge of the attack which they chose not to share, making them complicit, and the respective governments would have to appear in a U.S. court to demonstrate their innocence.”

    An entry at HC…

    In June 2001, German intelligence warned the US, Britain, and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft and use them as weapons to attack “American and Israeli symbols which stand out.” Within the American intelligence community, “the warnings were taken seriously and surveillance intensified” but “there was disagreement on how such terrorist attacks could be prevented.” This warning came from Echelon, a spy satellite network that is partly based in Germany. [Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 9/11/01, Washington Post, 9/14/01]

    However, there is PLENTY of information to suggest Pakistani Brass were well aware of the upcoming attacks, and they did not send a warning that I’m aware of.

    The police and FBI reports are available.

    Police Report
    http://911myths.com/index.php?title=File:46173840-Police-Report.pdf

    FBI Reports
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxhHk-kM0huWcjlFTVNUOTVhMEU/edit?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxhHk-kM0huWVmotS3d0dW9zMW8/edit?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxhHk-kM0huWRkg5Z1NGZHZZSlU/edit?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxhHk-kM0huWaDg2Umx3UFh6eDA/edit?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxhHk-kM0huWZnh3NmI5QzRDMWs/edit?usp=sharing

    Supplied by 911myths.com

    One piece of evidence Pakistani Brass knew… I know there are more…

    http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/showthread.php?9322-Pakistan-Military-Brass-Knew-In-Advance-That-9-11-Would-Take-Place

    This document, from 911myths.com, is said to have come from from the FBI regarding the Israelis arrested in the White Van on 9/11/2001…

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxhHk-kM0huWcjlFTVNUOTVhMEU/edit

    DATE PROPERTY ACQUIRED: 9/12/2001
    SOURCE FROM WHICH PROPERTY ACQUIRED:
    NJ LICENSE JRJ13Y

    ITEM #15 FABRIC SAMPLE (EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE)
    ITEM #17 CONTROL SWABS – (BOMB SUITS)
    ITEM #34 BLANKET SAMPLES FOR EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE

    I’ve seen this before. Has anyone got an explanation as to what it means?

    Listen to my show “We Were Lied To About 9/11”

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/we-were-lied-to-about-9-11/id955030348?mt=2

  9. dearieme says:

    Will anyone sue the USA for its sponsorship of IRA terrorism in the UK and the Republic of Ireland?

  10. DaveE says:
    @Anonymous Smith

    That’s exactly what Mr. Giraldi said. Although, I agree with you that people should stop blaming “the Israelis” when rightfully it was a Jewish (not just Israeli) operation from start to finish.

    The Israelis couldn’t even begin to pull off 9/11 without mega-help from their army of sayanim in the US.

    But if a truthful essay falls in the forest and no-one is allowed to read it, did it really fall? Mr. Giraldi just wants to be heard and it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to know that, when he says “Israeli” he means “Jew.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous Smith
  11. Art says:

    Is it not self-evident that some Jew Israeli people, some Saudi people, and some people in the US government all together had a hand in doing 9/11 – and also in covering it up – and also in using it to start more wars?

    Zionism and Wahhabism are old world Semite brothers. They share old world delusions of godly grandeur. Clearly there are US Gentiles who think in terms of old world domination and empire grandeur for the US government.

    These grandeur people are brothers in evil.

    This is the twenty first century – it is time to go to Mars – not kill each other.

    We the People MUST insist on peace!

    Art

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Anonymous
    , @Olorin
  12. RobinG says:
    @dearieme

    Dearieme, still wondering why the US has been destroying Syria? This well-referenced article gives the geopolitical (money/energy/power) explanation, including link to Ralph Peters.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/plans-for-redrawing-the-middle-east-the-project-for-a-new-middle-east/3882
    excerpt –

    The term “New Middle East” was introduced to the world in June 2006 in Tel Aviv by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (who was credited by the Western media for coining the term) in replacement of the older and more imposing term, the “Greater Middle East.”

    This shift in foreign policy phraseology coincided with the inauguration of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) Oil Terminal in the Eastern Mediterranean. The term and conceptualization of the “New Middle East,” was subsequently heralded by the U.S. Secretary of State and the Israeli Prime Minister at the height of the Anglo-American sponsored Israeli siege of Lebanon. Prime Minister Olmert and Secretary Rice had informed the international media that a project for a “New Middle East” was being launched from Lebanon.

    This announcement was a confirmation of an Anglo-American-Israeli “military roadmap” in the Middle East. This project, which has been in the planning stages for several years, consists in creating an arc of instability, chaos, and violence extending from Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria to Iraq, the Persian Gulf, Iran, and the borders of NATO-garrisoned Afghanistan.

  13. Blake says:

    When dual citizen Chertoff put immunity in the Patriot Act for “anything israel may have done on 9-11″ that was the coup de grace for me.

    He was the key U.S. official behind the 9-11 cover-up, an Israeli citizen-son of a Mossad agent. Chertoff was the head of the criminal division of the Dept of Justice at the time & assistant AG+ top boss of the FBI. From this position Chertoff managed the FBI’s “non-investigation” of 9-11, & supervised the confiscation, destruction of the critical evidence – such as videotapes, aircraft debris, over 99 % of the steel from the WTC. Destruction of this crucial evidence is a crime in itself.

    He used federal legal power to secure release “five dancing Israelis.” Many believe these Israelis installed the thermate which provided the “bottom base” explosive destruction of the world trade center buildings!NY city police had arrested and detained these five murderous scum for continued questioning for 70 days, when this traitor to America appeared & secured the safe release of these monsters & shipped them safely to ‘Israel’.

    Chertoff also means ‘devil’ in Russian I believe.

  14. Rehmat says:

    Dr. Giraldi – you got to be kidding, right?

    When was the last time the Jewish Lobby allowed Israel to be sued since the creation of the western colonial outpost? Israel was involved in the assassination of JFK, 9/11, and many other terrorist act against the United States. Some of these terrorist acts have been acknowledged by Israel without remorse or compensation to its victims.

    Take for example the attack on USS Liberty and USS Cole. Leaders of several major American Jewish organizations met Barack Obama and members of his national security team on January 23, 2013 offering abject apologies for the Israeli covert attack on USS Liberty. According to Karl Reich, BNN senior producer, the Jewish groups included ADL, AIPAC and the Conference of Major American Jewish Organizations. However, the Israeli ambassador in Washington could not attend the meeting due to sickness.

    It took American Jewish leaders 46 year to admit that Israel did intentionally attack electronic intelligence-gathering ship, USS Liberty, on June 8, 1967, which resulted the death of 34 young Americans and wounding another 171.

    The Zionist regime blamed Egypt for the attack. The Israeli-poodle president Lyndon Johnson (his mother Rebekah Baines had Jewish family roots) covered Israeli foot-prints under the influence of his advisor, Mathilde Krim, a former operative of Jewish terrorist group Irgun. Her husband Arthur Krim, then chaired the finance committee for the Democratic National Committee.

    Both Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Dean Rusk, secretary of state refuted Israeli story (“a tragic incident”) and called the incident a deliberate Israeli attack to suck American forces on Israeli side against Arabs.

    Lt. Com. James Ennes was one of the survivors on USS Liberty. James was hounded by the Jewish Lobby groups for years. They called him “antisemite”, “Nazi bastard” and “drop dead”…

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/01/27/jewish-groups-apologize-for-israeli-attack-on-uss-liberty/

    • Replies: @Orville H. Larson
  15. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    Be careful pointing our Israel’s role in the 9/11 False Flag, as that can get you arrested here in the USA:

    alethonews.wordpress.com/2016/10/02/librarian-defends-patrons-free-speech-is-brutally-arrested-in-library-where-he-works/

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  16. dahoit says:

    Thank you Mr.Giraldi,as you are one of the few patriots left fighting for 9-11 truth.
    Of course Israel was central to 9-11,as causation at the least,although if ,as OBL claimed,he had nothing to do with it,that would definitely leave them as perpetrator and instigator.
    And I’ve read they were celebrating before the second plane hit, definite evidence of foreknowledge.
    And our own governments response leaves much to question,with multiple evidence of lies and coverup.
    And our intrepid MSM has blanketed every possible malignant actor with the magic shield of Perseus,including the Saudis,to this day even,a strange phenomena regarding alleged Israeli Arab hostility.
    Oy.

  17. RobinG says:
    @Art

    Art, is grandeur the same thing as power? 🙁
    Let’s hope Phil’s right, and the unintended consequences include indictments for Bush, Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Clinton, Power, etc.

    Another point of unintended consequences, I’ve been warning, is the No-Fly/No-Buy blind back-door attack on gun rights that will lead to loss of other rights. But way before that, the First Amendment was assaulted in KANSAS CITY in May. Questioning ISRAELI policy in a public library is now grounds for arrest!!!!!

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/0d983782157341819671685dc8a64ee2/official-outraged-about-charges-after-kc-library-arrests

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article105294071.html
    “The arrests occurred after a provocative question was asked at the question-and-answer period of a May 9 talk by diplomat Dennis Ross. For months, library officials protested that the arrests and charges were a violation of the First Amendment.”

    Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article105294071.html#storylink=cpy

    • Replies: @Art
  18. Stan says:

    There was denial of service attack on UNZ.com for several hours today 10/4/16. Did this article provoke the attack?

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Noizpots
  19. […] By Philip Giraldi • Unz Review • October 4, 2016 […]

  20. FLgeezer says:

    JASTA is nothing more than a jobs program for avaricious Noo Yawk lawyers. And just imagine how their frivolous law suits will tangle up America’s Federal courts. The very fact that JASTA was passed overwhelmingly by the House and Senate informs as to who owns our formerly sovereign, free, great and beloved republic. Weep for America lost.

  21. Anonymous [AKA "SS Brat"] says:

    Whatever you think of Hitler, he did try to warn us about organised international Jewry.

  22. @Blake

    Michael Chertoff’s cousin, Benjamin Chertoff, wrote the Popular Mechanics hit piece debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories.

    From this position Chertoff managed the FBI’s “non-investigation” of 9-11, & supervised the confiscation, destruction of the critical evidence…over 99 % of the steel from the WTC.

    That evidence was quickly handed over to Alan D. Ratner’s Metals Management and the SIMS group. Ratner is a Jew.

    • Replies: @FLgeezer
  23. @DaveE

    Mr. Giraldi just wants to be heard and it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to know that, when he says “Israeli” he means “Jew.”

    I am a rocket surgeon and I do know…when Giraldi says “Israeli” what he really means is: “OMG! I’m so frightened of the joos! They could get me any time they want…what was that noise?!”

    I think he’s a fake.

    • Replies: @FLgeezer
  24. FLgeezer says:
    @Anonymous Smith

    And recall that after Chertoff’s stint as Director of Homeland Security, he managed to sell and install hundreds of defective body scanners in US airports. SUCH A DEAL and Our Tax Dollars At Work!

    http://www.baesystems.com/en-us/our-company/about-us/bae-systems-inc/inc-board-of-directors/michael-chertoff

  25. FLgeezer says:
    @Anonymous Smith

    >I am a rocket surgeon and I do know
    What does your malpractice insurance cost you Anonymous Smith?

    >I think he’s a fake.
    It figures that you would:
    http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/new/

    • Replies: @Anonymous Smith
  26. utu says:
    @FLgeezer

    “he managed to sell and install hundreds of defective body scanners” – But first they had to conduct the Underwear Bomber operation.

    • Replies: @abbybwood
  27. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Now it is just possible that Mossad affiliated Urban Moving was indeed uninvolved in 9/11 but it also must be recognized that Israel had the means, ability and access required to bring down the World Trade Center using controlled pancake explosions.

    After the 1993 bombing, the World Trade Center had extremely tight security. The last time I visited the WTC was in June of 2001, and it was still that way. Cars were searched for bombs on the way into the parking garage; when you entered the building, bags were searched, your ID was checked, as was your destination, and you were given a special laminated photo ID to show to the next layer of security at the elevator banks.

    Given the level of security there, and the giant jet liners full of kerosene we saw crash into the buildings at 600 miles per hour, it seems more likely that those jets caused the demise of the WTC.

    • Replies: @Blake
    , @Greg Bacon
  28. Blake says:
    @FLgeezer

    Profitted from that big time

  29. Art says:
    @RobinG

    Art, is grandeur the same thing as power? 🙁

    RobinG,

    Without question the manifestation of grandeur is power over others.

    The Zionists and Wahhabis are nasty people who justify their power hungry makeup to a god.

    Cheney and Rumsfeld are just nasty men who think geopolitical power. They cut their geopolitical teeth at Nixon’s knee. Clearly, Cheney and Rumsfeld see the Jews as like power players. They played, we lost. They have led the American people into a powerless situation. Thanks to them, we have become economic and political surfs to the Zionist Jews.

    Long term I am hopeful – but the next twenty years are going to be hell.

    Art

  30. Why are you even asking the question in your subtitle? You should be the first one to file a suit, get your day in court, and prove what dastardly people these Jews are.

  31. @FLgeezer

    I never really kept track of Skeletor once he left the gov.

    That info doesn’t surprise me, though…they are natural born crooks!

  32. Blake says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    After the 1993 bombing, the World Trade Center had extremely tight security. The last time I visited the WTC was in June of 2001, and it was still that way. Cars were searched for bombs on the way into the parking garage; when you entered the building, bags were searched, your ID was checked, as was your destination, and you were given a special laminated photo ID to show to the next layer of security at the elevator banks.

    Who is to say that there was no clearance given to certain vehicles/personnel by those in control?

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  33. […] By Philip Giraldi • Unz Review • October 4, 2016 […]

  34. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Art

    You forgot the UKs role in 911.

  35. Wally says: • Website
    @N230099

    Dude, WWII was like 71 years ago.

  36. Wally says: • Website
    @Blake

    Let’s not mention the vast sums that ‘I$raelis’ receive from ‘Homeland Security to do much of the spying.

    “Jame Bamford of Wired subsequently reported that the NSA had hired secretive contractors with extensive ties to Israeli intelligence to establish 10 to 20 wiretapping rooms at key telecommunication points throughout the country.”
    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-impact-of-nsa-domestic-spying-2013-6#ixzz3NxPMujNo

    and:
    “Two Secretive Israeli Companies Reportedly Bugged The US Telecommunications Grid For The NSA”
    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/israelis-bugged-the-us-for-the-nsa-2013-6#ixzz3NxPnnUFg

    and:
    “IDF Unit 8200 Cyberwar Veterans Developed NSA Snooping Technology”
    Read more:http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/06/08/idf-unit-8200-cyberwar-veterans-developed-nsa-snooping-technology/

    and:
    “Jewish groups get up to 97% of grants from the Homeland Security”
    http://mondoweiss.net/2012/07/islamophobia-shmislamophobia-97-of-homeland-security-security-grants-go-to-jewish-orgs

  37. Good says:

    JASTA is great legislation!

  38. Good says:

    JASTA is great legislation!

  39. Good says:

    JASTA is great legislation!

    • Replies: @FLgeezer
  40. Rich says:
    @dearieme

    Will anyone sue the USA for its sponsorship of British terrorism in Ireland, the UK, Continental Europe and the rest of the world?

  41. annamaria says:
    @Stan

    “There was denial of service attack on UNZ.com for several hours today 10/4/16.”
    The same has been happening to consortium.com, another great source of information.
    Perhaps the vampire-scoundrels have been annoyed by the light (truth)

  42. @FLgeezer

    Piss on Michael Jerkoff–er, Chertoff, that Israel-First cretin.

  43. when Trump said he would like to get to the bottom of 9-11 an earthquake went off in Israel recording 9.9 on the richter scale. so they decided to scapegoat the Saudis for 9-11 kol nidre style. the yellow paidophiles in congress to eager to please their Israeli masters voted to pass this. if the saudis wanted to hurt the USA they could make one phone call that would destroy the country overnight.

    • Replies: @AmericaFirstNow
  44. Alfred says:

    It seems to me that this article is just a tease. Everyone who has looked into it will come to the conclusion that the Israelis were 100% behind 9/11 – and the Saudis merely provided some cretins to front it.

    The Saudis are so incompetent that they cannot subdue Yemen – despite a massive superiority in weaponry.

    “Truck Bomb Destined for George Washington Bridge”

    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it#Truck_Bomb_Destined_for_George_Washington_Bridge

  45. No one seemed to know why American flags were at half-staff for several days, so I googled around:

    START: 9/28/2016 END: 9/30/2016

    US Flags at Half-Staff for the Death of Shimon Peres

    Presidential Proclamation — Death of Shimon Peres DEATH OF SHIMON PERES – – – – – – – BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA A PROCLAMATION As a mark of respect for the memory of Shimon Peres, former President and Prime Minister of Israel, I hereby order, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff at the White House and on all public buildings and grounds, at all military posts and naval stations, and on all naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions until sunset, on September 30, 2016. I also direct that the flag shall be flown at half-staff for the same period at all United States embassies, legations, consular offices, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-eighth day of September, in the year of our Lord two thousand sixteen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and forty-first.

    BARACK OBAMA

    • Replies: @Avery
  46. yep says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    sued, ha, ha, once the military finds out that israel did it , they would bomb that little state,

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  47. @Rehmat

    Of course, the attack on U.S.S. LIBERTY was deliberate. The ship had been under aerial surveillance for hours beforehand. The sea was calm, the visibility unlimited. Maybe the Israelis were too fuckin’ stupid to plot courses and speeds, but I doubt it.

    U.S. Sixth Fleet should have been allowed to mount a retaliatory attack on an Israeli military target.

  48. FLgeezer says:
    @Good

    >JASTA is great legislation!

    Spake the unemployed Noo Yawk lawyah. 😉

  49. Avery says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    Where does the Constitution grant POTUS the authority to order the lowering of US flags ‘As a mark of respect’ for a foreign dignitary?
    Does the State of Israel lower its flags when an American VIP dies?
    I haven’t heard of any such gesture.

    So, again, why would a President of United States spit on the memory of all those Americans who died serving and protecting that flag, and order it lowered for a state which attacked a US flagged ship – USS Liberty – and killed and murdered American servicemen.

  50. Rehmat says:
    @Orville H. Larson

    Well, it didn’t happen because president Lyndon Johnson was in bed with his Jewish sexpot and Sen. John McCain’s father Admiral John McCain Sr. was licking Israel’s AZZ ……

    The former commanding officer of the USS Liberty, Captain William McGonagle, generously donated to the Gift Fund during a memorial service for crew members in June 1989. His donation and a grant co-funded by the Andrew Mellon Foundation and the Wisconsin Humanities Committee enabled the library to offer The Library of America, a 60-volume set of writings of major American authors.

    Books on the Middle East also are available from all points of view, in keeping with the remark by Joseph Joubert, “It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.”

    A debate raged while the library was under construction over the suggestion by two major donors to the project to name the library in honor of the USS Liberty. The proposal set off attempts, mostly by residents of nearby Milwaukee, to induce residents to change the name. These included unrelenting critical media coverage, picketing during the ground-breaking ceremony, refusal by the school board to permit the high school band to participate, and the refusal of some area clergy and many invited military and federal government officials to attend the village’s memorial service for the crew.

    The project trustees wanted to name the library after Theodore and Benjamin Grob, two Swiss-born Jewish industrialists who donated $250,000 towards the project. But they rejected the offer saying: “Name it the USS Liberty Memorial Library in honor of the 34 Americans who died when Israel attacked the USS Liberty in 1967.”

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/03/jews-against-uss-liberty-memorial-library/

    • Replies: @AmericaFirstNow
  51. Noizpots says:
    @Stan

    Surely yes; I myself also experienced such a denial of access.

  52. File suit on Norway.
    The Granit missile that hit the Pentagon was stolen from the sunken Kursk submarine by Halliburton Norway when they were contracted by Russia to look for survivors and evaluate recovery options.
    When Mammut Denmark cut the sub and lifted the segments to the surface, the bow magazine was missing 2 of its 24 Granit nuclear warheads.

  53. Giraldi:

    ” . . . It would indeed be ironic if an Israel-loving Congress has, through its passage of JASTA to squeeze money out of the Saudis, also inadvertently opened the door to finding out just what the Mossad and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu were up to back in 2001.”

    No shit!

  54. J.A.S.T.A.
    Jewish Attorney’s Saudi Terrorization Agenda

  55. @yep

    I think it is more likely that there are those in positions of power already who would see to it that “things” already in the US would go bang first and in a big way.

  56. For obvious reasons, a large proportion of American lawyers won’t touch such a case. Many judges too.

  57. @Orville H. Larson

    See ‘The Day Israel Attacked America’ linked at following URL:

    The Day Israel Attacked America:

    http://america-hijacked.com/2014/10/30/the-day-israel-attacked-america/

  58. @mr. meener

    Israel as 9/11 Motive & Media Betrayal:

  59. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Blake

    The amount of explosives that would have had to be smuggled in and set strains credulity. The 1993 truck bombing used 1500lbs of explosives and didn’t come close to bringing down the North Tower.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Bugg
  60. Greg Bacon says: • Website
    @Dave Pinsen

    WTC security? What security?

    I visited a friend who lived in the south Bronx and he took this rube on a sightseeing tour of NYC, including the Twins in 2000, we even went up to the viewing deck on the 86th floor, that was in one of the Twins and there was NO security.

    No one stopped and asked us what we were doing; no one asked for our ID’s while wandering around the entry level floor and no one asked for our ID’s when we went up the elevator.

    After digesting that Blake, please tell us how WTC 7 came down and what caused WTC 6 to explode that afternoon, leaving nothing but a crater?

    I could ask if you knew who stole several hundred million dollars worth of gold and silver bullion the night BEFORE 9/11 from the basement of WTC 4, but for now, just WTC 6 and 7.

  61. @Greg Bacon

    Just calling Israel a terrorist state will get you injured and arrested in the US of Gulag…

    Security hired by pro-Israel group arrests questioner at Dennis Ross speech in Kansas City Public Library –

    See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/10/security-arrests-questioner/#sthash.AbuTMbfW.dpuf

  62. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It doesn’t seem that much could be proved in court against Israel regarding 9-11. It’s suspected that they had foreknowledge due their spying but that’s the extent of it. Of course if they knew but didn’t inform the US government then that would be a major betrayal. However, letting it happen may have been the US plan all along. The hijackers who were to act as the pilots, at the very least, would most logically have received their flight training in Saudi Arabia where they would have had access to airfields, similar jumbo-jets to train on, trainers and training manuals that provided instruction in their native Arabic and a security system to assure discretion. They certainly didn’t learn to fly jumbo-jets by taking flight lessons in some small rinky-dink propeller planes, the kind used to fly advertising banners in the summertime. The wired money from Pakistan is another piece in the puzzle.
    I can’t see much coming out of this except perhaps some lawyers cashing in. The truth will continue to be covered up. It’s strange to view Americans who consider themselves to be set-upon by foreign terrorists whist being totally oblivious to the fact that they’re living in the country that’s been terrorizing the entire world for many years now. Contras, ‘freedom-fighter’ jihadis in Afghanistan, ‘moderate’ jihadis in Syria, we’ve been behind it all, the list just keeps getting longer once one sits down to make a list. Wonder what the US should owe the rest of the world?

  63. Sherman says:

    I think Giraldi should also mention that Hurricane Matthew is also a Zionist plot.

  64. Don’t go down the route of excessive antisemitism. It taints the the Truther movement. Just support demands for a new investigation. Let’s have a proper investigation and let the chips fall where they may. If it’s Jews, fine. If it’s not Jews, that’s fine too.

    Let’s think about a what a new investigation would look like. Who would run it? Kissinger? Zelikow? Chertoff? Would Cheney and Bush actually be put under oath this time? Would eyewitnesses be allowed to testify openly? Would it be like the Iran Contra hearings or the Church hearings? Who would present the evidence for the Truthers? The No Planes crowd?

    Presidential candidate Jill Stein has said she supports a new investigation. That is some progress at least. Stop Jew Bashing and other silliness and start thinking about what a real investigation would look like.

    BTW: Chertoff is alive and well and just endorsed Hillary Clinton for president. All the Neocons are for Hillary.

  65. Anonymous [AKA "Alger Hiss"] says:

    Next from Philip Giraldi: Israel’s role in the sinking of the Maine.

  66. utu says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Explosive material used in 1993 had efficiency 4-5 time smaller than military grade explosives.

  67. Rehmat says:

    Two pro-Israel politicians, former Governor Thomas H. Kean, and former Congressman Lee H. Hamilton, who were chairman and vice-chairman of Bush’s ‘9/11 Commission’ penned an opinion post at the USA TODAY (September 11, 2016) saying that terror threats against American people are worse than it were on September 2001. May be they know what Israeli Mossad is planning in the near future.

    Philip Zelikow (Zionist Jew), former executive director of the ‘9/11 Commission’ admitted in 2004 that America invaded Iraq in 2003 because Saddam Hussein became an existential threat to the Zionist entity.

    In December 2001, US historian Michael Collins Piper claimed that the so-called “19 Arab hijackers” could have been Israeli agents.

    On September 10, 2016, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts posted an article, entitled, 9/11: 15 years of a transparent lie.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/09/11/jill-stein-is-a-911-denier/

  68. Ron

    I have a very ratty ranting email from Blake accusing me of saying things on this thread that I don’t recall but when I search for it in the thread and search for what zi.am supposed to have said neither appear.

  69. @dearieme

    Can we send little Petey King to Gitmo for his support of the IRA?

  70. Rehmat says:

    Organized Jewry is very allergic to someone not agreeing with the official 9/11 narrative.

    On October 1, 2016, Dr. Michael J. Mahon, president University Lethbridge (Canada) asked professor Anthony Hall to submit his resignation. Mahon’s decision was result of a vicious campaign run by country’s powerful Jew-Supremacist B’nai B’rith – claiming Tony Hall believes in so-called ‘conspiracy theories’ such as Israel committed 9/11.

    Dr. Robin Mathews, academic, poet and anti-imperialism activist, in an open letter to Canada’s prime minister Justin Trudeau and Mahon protested against the dismissal of Anthony Hall over Zionist cooked-up lies.

    American academic, editor, author, and speaker, Kevin Barrett claims that Tony Hall was set-up by Jewish activists who planted an inflammatory image on Tony’s Facebook page. He also penned a letter to Mike Mahon.

    On September 28, 2016, Robert Sean Lewis aka RAFIQ, writer and author, posted an article, entitled, Canadian professor libelously targeted as antisemite in coordinated attack. He accused Bernie Farber, former executive director of Canadian Jewish Congress and founder of the Mosaic Institute of declaring Tony Hall an antisemite over faked evidence.

    You can read Tony Hall’s Zionist Witch-hunt in his own words below:

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/10/06/canada-speech-freedom-doesnt-include-israels-criticism/

  71. Che Guava says:

    Great article, Mr. Giraldi.

    However, I think the idea of extra-territorial litigation as a means for anything is pretty horrid. It will further enrich a few members of the already bloated legal caste in the USA.

    Seriously, there may be a couple of cases against meaningless Saudis.

    Whatever the scope and scale of Israeli involvement, the truth will stop at the level of Justin Raimondo’s old book on it, which appears to have vanished, so perhaps it stops somewhere before that.

    I wonder if this article is the reason for Unz Review being broken for well over 24 hours?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  72. Olorin says:
    @Art

    We the people must insist on shoving primitive Abrahamic religion back to its heartland and evolving ourselves in the new directions that were truncated in the 20th century by the BOBIEs (Band Of Brothers In Evil).

    Zionism and Wahhabism are old world Semite brothers. They share old world delusions of godly grandeur. Clearly there are US Gentiles who think in terms of old world domination and empire grandeur for the US government.

    These grandeur people are brothers in evil.

    And if they aren’t reined in, they will want to export that evil to the stars.

  73. @N230099

    I promise to stop talking about 9-11 when you stop talking about Jesus.

  74. Bugg says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Also smuggled into buildings which had as tenants and/or security there 24/7 NYPD, Port Authority Police, The Fed, FBI, Secret Service, NY State Troopers (including the NYC office of NY state Governor), as well as building security for the WTC and security of the various tenants themselves. If there was this massive planting of explosives, how is it so many of the security personnel above were bought off to allow the murders of almost 3000 people they may have known and interacted with every day?And why hasn’t someone from one of these agencies, in a pang of guilt, come forward? Where is any witness to the placing of the explosives?

  75. abbybwood says:
    @utu

    You mean the underwear bomber who was escorted to the boarding gate by a man in a sharp suit and tie who demanded the bomber be allowed to board the plane with no passport, which was all witnessed by the American lawyer and his wife who were sitting nearby playing a friendly game of cards as they waited to board the plane? THAT underwear bomber??:

    http://haskellfamily.blogspot.com/2011/09/colossal-deceit-known-as-underwear.html

  76. RobinG says:

    ISRAELI MOTIVES IN WAR ON YEMEN

    “Israel is concerned about Yemen because an independent Yemeni government could inhibit Israel’s nuclear-armed submarines from easily deploying from the Red Sea to the Persian Gulf to menace Iran with the threat of an attack.”

    This is from last year. Still best article I’ve seen.
    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/248269-yemen-oil-saudi-mandeb-strait/
    War on Yemen: Where oil and geopolitics mix

  77. @Blake

    Where in the text of the Patriot Act do words appear excluding Israel’s liability? What are the precise words and in what section?

    All I can find by searches is other such statements as yours appearing to have no more credibility than the words of a blowhard at a Bar.

    I have absolutely no dog in this fight but I am used to assessing evidence and so far I haven’t seen anything to tar that Chertoff with the alleged unlikely manipulation that you apparently believe.

  78. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    It appears the famous Pax Romana saying of “All roads lead to Rome” needs to be revised with the Pax Judea saying of “All roads lead to Jerusalem.”

  79. @RobinG

    The Bridge of the Horns

    a project that originated in 2007 with the bin Laden family, who are originally from Yemen,
    to build the world’s longest suspension bridge across the Red Sea at Bab-a; Mandab
    http://basementgeographer.com/bridge-of-the-horns-cities-of-light-will-they-ever-actually-be-built/
    to link Djibouti and the Arabian peninsula

    http://www.arabianbusiness.com/yemen-djibouti-bridge-part-of-200bn-project-48970.html#.V_eEORTmHFI

    American firms are involved in the design and construction of the new cities that will anchor the ends of the bridge.

  80. KenH says:

    I doubt any group of citizens will attempt to use JASTA against Israel. If they did the media and organized Jewish groups would go into overdrive labeling them anti-semites and Nazis. But if they persisted then Israel would use their stooges in both houses of Congress to pass a bill granting them immunity.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  81. @KenH

    KenH — what is the alternative?

    • Replies: @KenH
  82. Phil has done a great service, though he pulled his punches. He knows – as do all of the people in the loop at that time – that there is no question about Mossad involvement in 9/11. “Another Federal agency” demanded that the FBI open an investigation. The FBI refused and bluntly said the refusal was due to political reasons. Some of the Israeli art students were involved in monitoring the 9/11 hijackers and of course were being supervised by Mossad officers. There is no doubt that Israel had guilty prior knowledge of 9/11. It is possible, as Phil says, that the Israelis were directly involved in bringing down the towers with specialized explosives. That had the means, motive and opportunity. That some high level U.S. government officials were involved is a given and anybody can figure out the likely suspects. George Bush WOULD NOT have been part of that group. He was a hapless patsy.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  83. Before The Unz Review shut down, I wrote a comment which was # 96 and it is now extinct.

    In the comment, I respectfully complained about Mr. Giraldi’s listing of Israel as a “secondary target” for a real “Columbo” style police investigation.

    Given his extensive C.I.A. experience and a penchant for honest journalism, Mr. Giraldi knows better. He understands that when well regarded journalists dare to cross a Zionist “Third Rail” threshold, a Black Maria will come for them. How sadly typical is this foreign INTIMIDATION upon our transformed “homeland” which began with an intent to “avoid entangling alliances,” and now we’re all dressed in our “underwear” and inside a padded False Flag bomber room.

    Were citizens merely 1/10 informed (by the U.S.-D.O.J.) about Israel’s prior knowledge and instrumental role in the 9-11 attacks, there would be no (unending & expensive) “War Against Terror” except for the one which persists to terrorize misled & fearful Americans. No doubt, Goldman Sachs gift of a 2016 Black Maria to Secretary Hillary Clinton would not be coming for President Vladimir Putin.

    As the U.S.S.R. required a de-Stalinization for survival during the early 1950’s, America’s present day 3-Branches of government desperately needs a de-Zionization process so that it can really start to even THINK about becoming “great again!” Too bad we do not have a Neo-Solzhenitsyn who is capable of “Tweeting” inconvenient political facts to those Paul Craig Roberts called “insouciant” Americans?

    One Tweet-starter example: Israel is a ‘sister democracy’ of the U.S. and Jimmy Carter said “America is no longer a democracy.” W.T.F. is going one here?

    Thank you very much Mr. Unz for letting me speak my mind once more.

  84. geokat62 says:
    @Chris Bridges

    There is no doubt that Israel had guilty prior knowledge of 9/11.

    The best source that documents the activities of the Israelis is a memorandum prepared by Gerald Shea, an international corporate lawyer. He submitted it to the 9/11 Commission back on September 15, 2004. In it, he pleads for a public inquiry on the basis of Israeli Surveillance of the Future Hijackers and FBI Suspects in the September 11 Attacks and Their Failure to Give Us Adequate Warning.

    Here’s the intro:

    I am an international corporate lawyer, writing to you today about a matter of public policy that is relevant to the circumstances surrounding, and our preparedness for, the catastrophic attacks on September 11, 2001. I do not know whether the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks (the “Commission”) or the Senate and House Committees on Intelligence (the “Committees”) have had the opportunity to consider these issues carefully. If so, I hope this memorandum will be helpful. If not, I respectfully urge them, in accordance with the mandate of the Commission’s charter and in the exercise of the Committees’ responsibilities, to investigate the facts and resolve the questions presented.

    Here’s the Detailed Summary:

    [MORE]

    Set forth below is a detailed summary of the tentative conclusions reached in this memorandum, which amply illustrate the urgent need for a public inquiry into the activities of the Israeli DEA Groups and the Israeli New Jersey Group. The inquiry must include, without limitation, the examination of members of the Israel Groups and related persons; officials of the Israeli government and certain of its agencies, including Mossad; FBI suspects, agents of the DEA, the INS and the FBI; certain local law enforcement officials; agents of the CIA (in camera to the extent required); other intelligence sources cited by the public press to the extent possible; the boxes of documents and computer hard drives (referred on page 29) seized by the FBI from the Israeli New Jersey Group; and of all other relevant documents, reports, communiqués and information.–

    1. The Israeli DEA Groups were spying on the Drug
    Enforcement Agency and thus upon the United
    States. The DEA itself has concluded that they
    were probably engaged in organized intelligence
    gathering on our soil.

    2. A highly regarded American journal knowledgeable
    about Israeli affairs, has concluded (a) based on
    its own sources, that the Israeli DEA Groups were
    spying on radical Islamic networks suspected of
    links to Middle East terrorism, and (b) based on
    the representations of a former American
    intelligence official regularly briefed on these
    matters by law enforcement officials, that (i) at
    least two members of the Israeli New Jersey Group
    were Mossad operatives, (ii) Urban Moving, the
    company used by the Israeli New Jersey Group, was
    a front for Mossad and its operatives, and (iii)
    the Israeli New Jersey Group was spying on local
    Arabs.

    3. The intelligence sources of a substantial
    American television network report that the
    Israeli DEA Groups may have gathered information
    about the September 11 attacks in advance, and
    not shared it with the United States. One
    investigator said that evidence linking the
    Israeli DEA Groups to such intelligence gathering
    was classified and could not be disclosed.

    4. The Israeli DEA Groups were comprised of 125 or
    more Israelis operating on our soil. Their
    leaders and apparent associates included military
    commanders and experts with military backgrounds
    in intelligence, electronic intercepts and
    telecommunications.

    5. The wiretapping and intelligence expertise of
    members of both Israeli Groups, and the use of
    vans in local neighborhoods where the future
    hijackers were planning the attacks, and the
    extensive use by the hijackers of cell phones and
    land lines, made the Israeli Groups ideally
    suited to gather information regarding the
    hijackers’ plans.

    6. The principal operation of the Israeli DEA Groups
    was located in and around Hollywood, Florida, the
    central training and staging ground for the
    hijacking of North and South Tower Planes and the
    Pennsylvania Plane. The addresses and places of
    residence of the members of the Israeli DEA
    Groups in Hollywood itself were within hundreds
    of yards those of the future hijackers.

    7. The operations of both the Israeli New Jersey
    Group and the hijackers of the Pentagon Plane
    were centered in Hudson and Bergen Counties in
    New Jersey, within a common radius of about
    six miles.

    8. All five celebrating members of the Israeli New
    Jersey Group arrested on September 11 were aware,
    when the North Tower Plane struck the World Trade
    Center, based on their immediate reaction to the
    attack and the information said to be contained
    in their van, that the attack had been planned
    and carried out by Arab terrorists.

    9. After being questioned by the FBI on September
    11, the leader of the Israeli New Jersey Group
    immediately fled the United States to Israel.
    His name and aliases appear, along with those of
    the hijackers and other FBI suspects, on the May
    2002 FBI Suspect list.

    10. Israeli intelligence officials have reported that
    two senior officials of Mossad warned the United
    States in August 2001 that as many as 200
    terrorists on American soil were planning an
    imminent large-scale attack on high visibility
    targets on the American mainland. One press
    report states that in August Mossad provided the
    CIA with the names of future hijackers Khaled al
    Mihdhar and Nawaf al Hazmi.

    11. The CIA’s explanation of how Mihdhar’s and
    Hazmi’s names were placed on the Watchlist
    through the spontaneous efforts of CIA and FBI
    agents is not only difficult to follow but, as
    the sole reason for the Watchlisting, hardly
    credible.

    12. Mossad’s own information appears to have come
    from its sources inside the United States. All
    of the facts and circumstances set forth in this
    memorandum appear to show that Mossad’s two
    likely sources of information were: (a) the
    Israeli DEA Groups, comparable in number to that
    of the Arab suspects and who appear to have
    tracked the future hijackers in their central
    places of operation and in other states, and (b)
    the Israeli New Jersey Group, operating through
    their Mossad front in another principal locus of
    operations of the future hijackers, two of whom
    were Mossad agents, and five of whom appeared
    immediately aware of the origin of the attacks on
    September 11.

    13. While little direct evidence supports the
    contention that the CIA was aware of or condoned
    the Israeli Groups’ tracking of Arab terrorist
    groups in the United States prior to September
    11, the CIA’s pressing for the expulsion of
    members of the Israeli DEA Groups when they were
    detained before September 11, their failure to
    cooperate with the FBI, their circuitous
    explanation of how the above two hijackers were
    placed on the Watchlist, and other relevant
    considerations require that the issue be taken up
    as a part of the public inquiry into these
    painful events.

    http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/MemorandumtotheCommissionandSelectCommitteesbold.pdf

  85. […] By Philip Giraldi • Unz Review • October 4, 2016 […]

  86. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous Smith

    “Jerk” and “idiot”?

    Unz, don’t tell me my hope we were finished with the likes of this in comments here were misplaced.

    What does it take? As soon as you see one “jerk” or “idiot”, the comment gets scrapped.

  87. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Orville H. Larson

    They were quite ahead in the process of becoming a colony. Colonies don’t take retaliatory action.

  88. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Che Guava

    Whatever the scope and scale of Israeli involvement, the truth will stop at the level of Justin Raimondo’s old book on it, which appears to have vanished, so perhaps it stops somewhere before that.

    Talk of semantic originality. “To appear to have vanished” = to be on sale on Amazon, alongside a wealth of other books by the same author.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  89. Lawyer, author and professor of international law Dan Joyner’s professional life revolves around participating in- and tracking litigation in international courts.

    Joyner specializes in treaty law with special expertise in nuclear proliferation treaty law, and this item concerns such a case. Nevertheless, this decision at the ICJ does not bode well for the success of other cases involving transnational suits.

    My Reaction to the Dismissal of the Marshall Islands Cases by the ICJ, October 5, 2016

    the ICJ has today dismissed the Marshall Islands’ cases against the United Kingdom, India and Pakistan. These were the only states left in the dock from the RMI’s initial announcement of cases against all nine nuclear weapons possessing states.

    —-

    Tangentially related: A few days ago I listened to a talk by John Lansing, current head of the Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG) https://www.c-span.org/video/?402726-1/communicators-john-lansing, and then to David Ensor, a former head of Voice of America https://www.c-span.org/video/?402678-1/discussion-international-broadcasting, one of the communications outlets under the BBG.

    The BBG manages “public diplomacy” and propaganda in diverse states throughout the world (by law, the citizens of the United States do NOT have access to the propaganda disseminated thru BBG assets).

    Two aspects of the two speeches were striking:

    1. The BBG & its elements operate on the assumption that certain other foreign states are inherent enemies or adversaries of the United States; their bedrock weltanschauung is that of Us vs Them. The language of the two men was peppered with terms like “information war;” and “we tell them the truth because their governments do not;” and “their media is all lies and propaganda, we just tell the truth.”

    2. Another foundational pillar of the BBG’s mindset is that they have the right, even the obligation, to change the cultural thinking and beliefs of target states and to use BBG (that is, US taxpayer) resources to cause the citizens of other nations to cast off their beliefs and adopt US thinking as superior and more “honest” and “truthful.”

    EVEN IF it were possible to resolve long-standing conflicts in US political life by means of litigation, which would at very least be a long, hard slog, such success still might not address notions deeply embedded in the American mindset; the notion of cultural exceptionalism — of chosenness — and the concomitant habit — even compulsion– of proselytization.

    I’d rather live under a flag that represents, “We mind our own business and respect your right to do the same,” rather than spreading tikun olam where it’s not welcome.

    • Replies: @Avery
  90. Avery says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    SolontoCroesus: none of my biz either way, but didn’t you say, in another thread, that you are leaving UNZ.com, because of the alleged deterioration of the quality of comments ?

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @iffen
    , @L.K
  91. iffen says:
    @Avery

    Can you be a little more informative?

    Are you suggesting that he intentionally posts poor quality comments so as to force himself into leaving?

    Isn’t that along the same line as the way Europe’s Jews forced the Nazis to try and exterminate them?

    We can’t fat shame anymore, nor can we slut shame, however, idiot shaming is still wide open.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  92. @RobinG

    I find it hard to accept that an independent Yemeni government would have the capability to stop Israel (or any other nation) moving submarines from one sea to another – although the straight between Africa and Yemen is pretty narrow (16 miles between Africa and Perim Island). How would they do it? Mines?

    (And if they ever build the proposed Bridge of the Horns across the strait, surely that would be very vulnerable in the event of a conflict.)

  93. KenH says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    If a group of citizens elects to sue Israel they should stay the course and not be deterred by the vicious personal attacks that are sure to come. Also throw the Izzy worshipping bums out of the Congress but that’s easier said than done as Americans are still too apathetic about such things.

  94. iffen says:

    There is the concept of sovereign immunity. So if all you 88s are correct about the US being an appendage of Israel then you can’t sue Israel in a US court.

    Catch-a 22.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  95. @iffen

    Earth to iffen: the import of JASTA is its penetration of the wall of sovereign immunity.

    By the way — how is it that the USA, or numerous courts in the USA — had no difficulty suing Iran, assessing fines against Iran, even executing takings of Iranian state assets, if, as iffen said, there existed (before JASTA), sovereign immunity? Jewish Americans who argued that they were harmed, in Israel, by acts carried out by Palestinians which, the J-A’s claimed, were sponsored by Iran, sued Iran; were awarded a judgment in a New York court by a US judge; and moved to collect on the judgment by attaching Iranian assets in the USA.

    Oh — silly me: the ‘laws’ are different when Jews/Israel are involved.

    (As well — the USA sashayed into Libya, overturned its government and assassinated its leader, then made off with Libyan gold reserves, estimated in the billions. R2P doncha know. Remit 2 the Powerful.)

    That’s what makes me think that JASTA is not at all aimed at Saudi Arabia; that’s just the rhetorical cover. There is some more evil evil afoot in this JASTA bill.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @SolontoCroesus
  96. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    From Wiki

    Sovereign immunity, or crown immunity, is a legal doctrine by which the sovereign or state cannot commit a legal wrong and is immune from civil suit or criminal prosecution. This principle is commonly expressed by the popular legal maxim rex non potest peccare, meaning “the king can do no wrong.”[1]

    You can’t sue the US in a US court.

    You can’t sue Iran in an Iranian court.

    You can’t sue Israel in an Israeli court

    We can’t fat shame anymore, nor can we slut shame, however, idiot shaming is still wide open.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  97. @iffen

    ok genius, based on your legal credentials from wikipedia university, explain why Iran could be sued in US courts for alleged harms that befell dual-citizen Jewish-Americans while they were in Israel, but it took an act of Congress for American citizens who were, or may in the future be harmed in the USA by a foreign state, to give those Americans the ability to sue that foreign state?

  98. L.K says:
    @Avery

    Hahahaha, you poor thing, you r confusing S.C with Kiza!

    • Replies: @Avery
  99. @SolontoCroesus

    JASTA is not at all aimed at Saudi Arabia; that’s just the rhetorical cover. There is some more evil evil afoot in this JASTA bill

    .

    aha

    That didn’t take long, did it:

    Impunity for Iran leaders should end

    The biggest massacre of political prisoners since World War II was carried out in Iran in 1988. The Iranian regime as a whole and many senior officials in power today were the perpetrators. The indiscriminate murder of 30,000 prisoners of conscience was ordered by the regime’s then-supreme leader Khomeini and carried out by members of “death commissions” set up around the county. . . .

    Many of these prisoners had already completed their sentences but were executed without fair trials in 1988 simply for their beliefs and support for the main opposition group Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK).

    You just knew Ed Royce-ster doyster had a hand in this, as well as his cross-country side-kick Eliot Engel, representing their Iranian Jews, Pahlavists, monarchists and Yellow Jackets (MEK) in Tehrangeles, Orange County, and in New York, where the juiciest cases are tried before (ahem) reliable judges. —-

    Last month, the House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Michael McCaul (R-Texas) introduced an important resolution “Condemning the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran for the 1988 massacre of political prisoners and calling for justice for the victims.” Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Ed Royce (R-Calif.) and Ranking Member Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.), plus a dozen more bipartisan members cosponsored H.Res. 159.

    The Resolution “Urges the Administration and United States allies to publicly condemn the massacre, and pressure the Government of Iran to provide detailed information to the families of the victims about their loved ones and their final resting places.”

    THAT is what JASTA is about: Iranian expats want their Eichmann trial.

    In his lectures “Understanding the Holocaust,” David Engel explains that the capital-haitch holocaust was a lower-case holocaust until the Eichmann trial. THEN it became special, the worstest thing ever, and boy oh boy did it cause the money spigot to open wide.

    Somebody wants to bleed Iran just like Jews bled/continue to bleed Germany — and anybody else they can get their hands on.

    The Eichmann trial required some very fancy legal footwork to rationalize kidnapping the citizen of another state and removing him to Israel, where Israel created a specific offense — “crimes against the Jewish people” — then tried and convicted him under that offense. Eichmann was, of course, executed in Israel. see, for example, http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1766&context=dlj

    Let’s see what contortions Roycester-doyster and Engel come up with.

    Hang onto your Persian carpets, this is going to be a bumpy ride.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  100. Avery says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Sorry about that: my mistake.

    It was [Regnum Nostrum].

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/the-war-against-syria-both-sides-go-to-plan-b/#comment-1594060
    {When I first came to Unz review I bumped into a few interesting and intelligent comments and thought that the site differed from the other blogs infested with all sorts of low life unable to find their own ass without a map. Well I was wrong. In order not to bother intellectual giants on this site who are clearly annoyed by my stupidity I have decided to leave. Enjoy the company of equals.}

  101. Avery says:
    @L.K

    {Hahahaha, you poor thing, you r confusing S.C with Kiza! with Kiza!}

    Hahahahahahahaha…ha (!).
    You poor thing: you are confusing somebody with Kiza !! (two exclamation marks).

    I see you are still smarting from the drubbing you got, by yours truly, you UygurTürkoğlu shill. Desperate to find something, anything, to get back at me, you miserable neo-Nazi Schweinhund?

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

    • Replies: @L.K
  102. RobinG says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Calling the MEK cult of assassins “the main opposition group” is quite the Newspeak. Now that they have lobbied themselves off the US terrorist list, MEK is on the new adventures.

    [Nothing gets by you! 🙂 ]

  103. Che Guava says:
    @Anonymous

    Well, Mr. Raimondo himself hasn’t mentioned it in well over ten years.

    He routinely promotes some of his other books at the end of every editorial on Antiwar.com.

    If that isn’t a form of disappearance to you, why not?

  104. Pax says:

    Alea iacta est.
    World pain and war await.
    President Hillary Clinton will cause war with Russia and others.
    Who stands to gain from those actions?
    American people do not know what their government is doing to them.
    The media lies for the government and for investors and other governments.
    Trust no one.

  105. chris says:
    @RobinG

    excellent article Robin, thanks !

  106. L.K says:
    @Avery

    Well, little fly, I have confused nothing. Your pal Kiza has sorta echoed regnum…

    Kiza’s arrogant comment 84, http://www.unz.com/freed/an-obsolescent-military/

    “It is just my general observation that the trend on unz.com is a declining quality of commentary because many of the original commenters have moved away….I have been a commenter at unz from its day one, but I may leave it to The Crapists and the brainwashed retired US military types with smelly feet from now on”

    At any rate, the pompous and self-important Kiza, at least does make some good contributions from time to time…
    Unlike you.

    Obviously the only reason you asked your idiotic question to S.C is bc u don’t like what he writes, particularly when it comes to WW2, N.S, the holohoax, etc.

    You should be castrated to prevent the spread of stupid.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Avery
  107. L.K says:

    Giraldi asks: Will Israel be sued for 9/11?

    No. But if the truth re 9-11 is ever revealed( it probably won’t ever be ), much worse could happen to Israel.
    They know it & that is why a real investigation was never even allowed to begin with.

    Investigative journalist Christopher Bollyn has written a very good book on 9-11.
    Solving 9-11: The Deception That Changed the World
    https://www.amazon.com/Solving-9-11-Deception-Changed-World/dp/0985322586/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1475962308&sr=8-1&keywords=solving+the+9-11+deception

    He has made a version available online @ http://www.bollyn.com/solving-9-11-the-book

    The facts indicate that the 9/11 cover up is a Zionist operation in which partisans of the state of Israel have played all the key roles. If the attacks of 9/11 were truly acts of Muslim Arab terrorists there would be no reason for Zionists to manage the destruction of the evidence.[…]

    The preceding chapter explains how the structural steel from the Twin Towers, crucial evidence of the murderous demolitions, was destroyed by a network of Zionist agents before it could be examined. From the Israeli Michael Chertoff, the Assistant Attorney General at the Department of Justice and the senior official responsible for investigating and prosecuting the crimes of 9/11, to the Mossad-controlled traders and owners of the New Jersey junkyards that managed its destruction, the steel passed from one Zionist agent to another until it was completely destroyed in the furnaces of Asian steel mills. What does this fundamental part of the 9/11 cover up tell us about who is really behind the crime? If Osama Bin Laden and 19 Arab hijackers truly brought down the World Trade Center, why was a network of Israeli intelligence agents engaged in a concerted effort to destroy the evidence?

    The physical evidence of the towers was hastily destroyed by a network of Zionist agents because it could expose the falsity of their interpretation of events. Indeed, the fact that a Zionist network had been established in order to manage the destruction of the evidence confirms the hypothesis that 9/11 was a false-flag terror atrocity carried out by Israeli intelligence and their agents in the U.S. government.

  108. Avery says:
    @L.K

    {You should be castrated to prevent the spread of stupid.}

    You are welcome to try, you miserable neo-Nazi Schweinhund.
    I live in the Los Angeles area, California.
    Come on over.
    Post the date you’ll be arriving in our City of the Angels.
    We’ll meet you at LAX: you will be treated with utmost respect and fully within the letter of the Law.
    (when I say “we”, I mean SoCal Armenian buddies).
    Make sure you wear your Schweinhund mask, so we recognize you.

    You will be met at LAX by several people, including law enforcement.
    You will be arrested for several felony charges.
    You will be sent to LA Central jail.
    It will take a while for your paperwork to be processed and bail to be set.
    While you are in custody, word will be passed to the Armenian criminals residing at LA Central jail that you are a Turk.
    Good luck Schweinhund.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

    • Replies: @L.K
  109. Avery says:
    @L.K

    {…the holohoax, etc.}

    It gives me great pleasure to observe you denialist, revisionist neo-Nazi Schweinhunden squirming with impotent rage at the site of Germany giving $10s and $10s of billions to thems “holohoaxers”: Sweet.

    Just recently Germany pledged to build and gift 3 more super-quiet submarines to the State of ‘Holohoax’ (..hahahahaha….ha (!): get it, swine?).

    btw: instead of hallucinating about castrating me, why don’t you do something about your girlyboy German ‘men’ (sic), who stood around and watched their German wives, girlfriends, daughters get sexually molested and raped by Islamist invaders. Obviously your German ‘men’ were castrated long ago: by thems Slavic Untermenschen; by Americans; and……by thems ‘holohoaxing’ Jooooos. Yee Haaaw.

  110. geokat62 says:

    Hot off the press, Why I left the cult, by Avigail Abarbanel.

    A few special excerpts:

    “Where I grew up wasn’t much different to many working class neighbourhoods elsewhere in the world, but I was always told that we were not the same as everyone else. We were special, we were better: more moral and ethical, more civilised. Don’t tell me you didn’t say that. I remember very well! I actually paid attention at school…

    To you ‘assimilation’ is also annihilation. They taught us that at school. We were taught that assimilation was despicable, cowardly, treacherous to our people. Whenever Jewish people marry non-Jews in their own countries, and when all traces of Jewishness, whatever it is, become diluted, you worry. You think it’s the end. Because there are no individuals, only the group, when the group goes individuals go too. So you feel any perceived threat to the group as a personal threat to each one of you. That’s why you cry antisemitism so readily and reflexively, whenever you perceive the slightest threat to your cult state…

    I don’t expect you to hear me or to see what you cannot see. You are experts at indoctrination and are too deeply steeped in your fear-based picture of reality. You are a great disappointment to me. That’s why I support the BDS against you. If you don’t stop yourself, someone has to.”

    [MORE]

    All changed, changed utterly:

    A terrible beauty is born.

    –From Easter, 1916, by WB Yeats

    Dear Israel and Israeli Jews,

    Maybe it’s pointless writing to you, and I guess I am not expecting a response. I am writing because I feel a certain sense of duty. After all I come from you, so maybe, maybe some of you might listen to me, might get curious, take a risk and entertain what is currently unthinkable to you.

    I left what seems like a very long time ago, twenty-five years. I don’t think you’ve changed much since, except for the worse maybe. Psychologies like yours have the nasty habit of getting worse if left untreated. I always remember you as harsh, defensive, hot around the collar and ready to explode at every opportunity, loud and unforgiving. You had pockets of calm and maybe even kindness, but they were reserved for those who lived in the nicer greener places, and they had more money than we did.

    I grew up in Bat-Yam and it was terrible there. It was an endless dense noisy mass of concrete; clumps of heavily populated blocks of thin-walled flats as far as the eye could see, separated only by bitumen roads. It’s not what you usually like to show the rest of the world, and it’s not what the rest of the world think of when they think of you. I grew up on Hashikma Street. What a cruel joke that was, naming that awful concrete dessert, Hashikma… ‘The Sycamore’. There were no trees there. During my childhood I had no idea what a shikma tree even looked like. Whoever these people were, did they think that that by naming the street sycamore it would somehow make it better for those of us destined to spend our childhoods there? Did they think they could fool us into thinking it was nicer, more idyllic than it really was? All it did was tease and torment. The name of my street spoke to me of something I had no access to and that I thought I could never have.

    This schizophrenic split between the name of the place and the reality of it is symbolic of your entire existence. Where I grew up wasn’t much different to many working class neighbourhoods elsewhere in the world, but I was always told that we were not the same as everyone else. We were special, we were better: more moral and ethical, more civilised. Don’t tell me you didn’t say that. I remember very well! I actually paid attention at school.

    But with the mind of a child, I kind of sensed that we weren’t special at all. I suspect a lot of children who suffer abuse within their own families at the hands of their own people, develop doubts about their group. If you protected me better, maybe I would still be a part of you. But you couldn’t protect me or other children like me precisely because you are not who or what you say you are, a more enlightened and ethical people. You are a group of humans with gifts and with flaws, and with plenty of cowardice like every other group. You are no different from any human society that hides and even enables crimes against its own children, and that fails to protect the vulnerable in their midst.

    A few years after I left you, I gradually began to realise that I was the same as any cult leaver. It was a shock, but looking back I wonder why I hadn’t seen it before. Then again, rarely can people inside a cult see where they are. If they could, the cult wouldn’t be what it is. They think that they are members of a special group that has a special destiny, and is always under threat. The survival of the cult is always the most important principle. Cult members are taught from birth that the world outside is dangerous, that they have to huddle together for safety. Every member of every cult is a recruit.

    At this point you are probably going to say that cult or no cult, this was entirely justified. Have I forgotten the holocaust? No. Of course not. Persecution of Jewish people throughout history was very real indeed. Whatever Jewish identity is, Jews were a hated and despised group among many cultures in Europe, and Jews have always had an uneasy co-existence with non-Jews. Any marginalised or persecuted group has an uneasy relationship with the dominant culture. Once you have been discriminated against it’s hard to trust.

    But two big things bother me about you. One, this history of persecution is so inseparable from your identity, you can’t see beyond it. Not even your most talented artists, academics, intellectuals and writers, can see beyond. You all seem to be caught up in it, except for a very small and extraordinary minority of people who can see Zionism for what it is. Anyone who has suffered trauma tends to feel separate and different. It’s human psychology once you have been abused, to feel that you are no longer the same as everyone else. But anyone who was abused and traumatised has a duty is to get better and not allow the fear and the victimhood to become their identity. Those of us who were abused and traumatised have this duty because if we don’t heal, we either hurt ourselves or others, or both. That’s where you are and that’s what you are doing. You have not only allowed trauma to become your very identity, you have glorified it and are worshiping it as a god.

    The second and even more important thing that bothers me is the crime you have committed and are still committing in the name of ‘our’ survival. You wanted a solution to the persecution of your group, and herein lies the problem. You decided to create a Jewish ghetto that you think of as a safe haven, on a land that was fully populated. You came in and took it, committed ethnic cleansing and are continuing to do so as we speak. I know you would not feel that you have completed your mission until you have all the land without the people.

    You are a product of settler-colonialism, a state created through the removal and the elimination of the people who lived in the territory before you. The relationship you developed with your victims, the Palestinians, bears all the hallmarks of a relationship between settler-colonisers and those they wish to eliminate from existence. Settler-colonisers don’t just remove people off their land. They remove their historical places, monuments, evidence of their history oral and physical, all traces of their existence… If there is no victim, there is no crime. If the territory is cleansed of the character given to it by those who lived there, it is open to take on a new one.

    I know what it’s like to be blind to the fact that you are settler-colonisers, people who are committing a terrible crime. You cannot see yourself as the ‘bad guy’ here. You are so steeped in your self-created myth, that you always were and always will be the most tragic victim in the story of humanity. I once was one of you and I know that it is practically impossible to see through your reasoning: ‘We merely returned to our ancestral home. We just want to live in peace with our own people. What’s wrong with that? Why don’t others let us live in peace?’

    There is a powerful force field, some kind of a lead-lined shield inside you, that protects your belief from the truth, from reality. You don’t deny that you ‘came back’ and settled the land, you just can’t see what it means. So let me spell it out for you one more time. When a group of people comes into a territory (no matter their reason), removes the indigenous people and takes their land and resources, it’s called settler-colonialism. Settler-colonialism is immoral and it is a crime against humanity. Victims don’t always go silently into the night, so crimes have to continue to be committed until the victims’ resistance and defiance are crushed and they disappear from view and memory. There is nothing original or special about what you are, or what you are doing. You are like all other settler-colonisers before you. Not even your capacity for self-deception and your deception of others are particularly special. It’s been done before. There is nothing special about you at all.

    Let’s say you did ‘return home’ as your myths say, that Palestine really was your ancestral home. But Palestine was fully populated when you started to covet it. In order to take it for yourself you have been following quite closely the Biblical dictate to Joshua to just walk in and take everything. You killed, you expelled, you raped, you stole, you burned and destroyed and you replaced the population with your own people. I was always taught that the Zionist movement was largely non-religious (How you can be Jewish without Jewish religion is perplexing in itself). For a supposedly non-religious movement it’s extraordinary how closely Zionism — your creator and your blueprint — has followed the Bible. Of course you never dare to critique the stories of the Bible. Not even the secular amongst you do that. None of my otherwise good teachers at my secular schools ever suggested that we question of the morality of what Joshua did. If we were able to question it, the logical next step would have been to question Zionism, its crimes, and the rightness of the existence of our very own state. No, we couldn’t be allowed to go that far. It was too dangerous. That would risk the precarious structure that held us in place.

    So like all cults that have ever existed, and those that will no doubt continue to be created, you live in self-imposed blindness. You create and recreate a picture of reality that is filled with holes, but you are OK with that. The possibility of filling those holes brings you face-to-face with your mortal terrors, your morbid fear of annihilation. And you can’t bear it. I know what annihilation means to you. It doesn’t just mean killing. Annihilation means that the Jewish people, that Jewishness itself would no longer exist. To you ‘assimilation’ is also annihilation. They taught us that at school. We were taught that assimilation was despicable, cowardly, treacherous to our people. Whenever Jewish people marry non-Jews in their own countries, and when all traces of Jewishness, whatever it is, become diluted, you worry. You think it’s the end. Because there are no individuals, only the group, when the group goes individuals go too. So you feel any perceived threat to the group as a personal threat to each one of you. That’s why you cry antisemitism so readily and reflexively, whenever you perceive the slightest threat to your cult state.

    I left the cult because I wanted to find out who I was. I refused to accept that the only purpose of my life was to defend the cult and allow it to continue. It’s human, it’s mammal, to allow one’s identity to be subsumed by the group, but it doesn’t make for a good life. We survived as mammals partly because we lived in groups. Without the group around them, individuals probably died out in the harsh world our ancestors lived in. Your psychology is nothing more than simple cave/herd psychology and it’s not unique to you. But we as a species have the capacity for so much more. In the world we live in now, our survival depends on transcending our natural base instincts. We can develop and use the moral and ethical part of our brain, the part that gives us self-awareness and concern for others, the part that can take responsibility for our own sins and crimes and can make amends. Our salvation is not in our own little groups any more, but together as one species.

    Come on, leave the cult and the ghetto mentality behind, join the human race, do the right thing. You want to be really special, to fulfil a special destiny? By all means! Lead the way to enlightenment by owning up, repenting and making amends, by transforming your identity into something healthy and positive. Show what can be achieved when we are more than frightened mammals…

    I don’t expect you to hear me or to see what you cannot see. You are experts at indoctrination and are too deeply steeped in your fear-based picture of reality. You are a great disappointment to me. That’s why I support the BDS against you. If you don’t stop yourself, someone has to.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2016/10/why-i-left-the-cult/

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  111. L.K says:
    @Avery

    {You should be castrated to prevent the spread of stupid.}

    Ava(ry): “You are welcome to try, you miserable neo-Nazi Schweinhund.”

    Sorry, I am not a gynecologist.

    Say, did u come up with your girlish/ junior high level ‘threats’ all by yourself, or did you have help from those “Armenian criminals residing at LA Central jail”?
    Was it in the ‘LA Central jail’ that you discovered your penchant for histrionics & hysterical womanly behavior, ava – ry?

    You are amusing… unintentionally funny! 🙂
    I’m keeping u as my pet.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  112. @L.K

    I’ve been following this exchange and it really is beneath you both. May I cordially invite you both to cease and simply ignore one another?

    Ron Unz recently commented that he didn’t want to start censoring commenters but also that he didn’t want his site to be degraded as so many other site have been by troll-like comments.

    I mean neither of you any ill will but please just stop it for all of our sakes. Cheers.

  113. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Poor Avigail, she seeks a measure of acknowledgement.

    How that is to be achieved by casting her lachrymose, jaundiced eyes on a nation she absconded from with her kiwi mate (was it?), is best left for a discerning reader to judge. One imagines whilst growing up in Bat Yam has it’s advantages, it doesn’t quite prepare the resident to offer informed commentary on larger socio-religious subjects. It would be akin to expecting a Harlem rapper to critically judge the contributions of the Metro Opera in NY, or a Grimsby woman in the U.K. re: the exegesis of classical Greek reliefs at the British Museum.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @SolontoCroesus
  114. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Poor Avigail, she seeks a measure of acknowledgement.

    How that is to be achieved… is best left for a discerning reader to judge.

    Hey, Sam. Perhaps you could help the less discerning reader by pointing out which points in her lengthy letter you take issue with?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  115. @Sam Shama

    it doesn’t quite prepare the resident to offer informed commentary on larger socio-religious subjects.

    do u go out of yur way to sound like a pretentious prick or does it come naturally — in the DNA so to speak?

  116. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Hey Geo. Well, she relieves herself with a flow of words of all the pent-up hostility that had been growing within her since she bolted. I should scarcely need to deconstruct her writing, a pastiche of the ‘literary’ effusions of today’s all too common ‘traumatised’ females, finding their lucrative perches in a society which vies to champion the next ‘victim’.

    I’ll admit she’s taken blaming the ex-in-laws to a new cross-national level not witnessed previously.

    Otherwise, not much to see there.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  117. Jews and Israel have prosecuted persons from Germany for alleged crimes against the Jewish people from the time of the Nuremberg trials, to (specifically) the kidnapping, trial and execution of Eichmann, to the prosecution of Demanjanjuk, and up until the present day, when Jews arrange for the prosecution of persons now in their 90s for even a tangential relationship to the alleged holocaust.

    David Engel devoted at least half of one lecture to detailing how “ordinary people” were complicit in the alleged holocaust: not only actual warriors in Germany but persons such as the man who dispatched the train, the man who closed the door on the train, persons who worked in factories that made weapons — all and sundry were complicit in the alleged holocaust, therefore subject to prosecution for crimes against the Jewish people.

    And we are aware that Jules Streicher was executed for the crime of writing in a newspaper words that “incited” the alleged holocaust.

    Thereby, Jews have established a model of whom is liable for prosecution, and JASTA is the equivalent of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal that enabled the Nuremberg Trials.

    Therefore, every newsperson who has disseminated information, in print, verbally, by Tweet, email, or otherwise, that vilified the citizens of another state such that they were rendered subject to attack, physical harm, deprivation of their rights to life or property, must be put on notice that they are liable to be prosecuted for their participation in crimes against those people.

    I suggest a letter be drafted and distributed to such persons.

    A list of the most egregious suspects can be easily drawn up, but as the David Engel/Jewish model of prosecuting persons even tangentially related to the commission of alleged crimes directs, clerks in newsrooms; the folks who man the cameras, the sound system; staffers in congressional offices — one all all, they, too, could be subject to prosecution under the Jewish/David Engel theory, and should be solemnly warned.

    US government leaders are threatening to, and preparing to, impose a “no – fly” zone over Syria. As US government spokespersons have conceded, war crimes could evolve from such an action. The act itself is a war crime: it amounts to the waging of war against a sovereign state. Anybody — any US citizen who participates in such an act should be warned that his/her participation may result in prosecution for war crimes.

    How ’bout it, Samantha Power: Don’t we have a Responsibility to Protect US citizens, first and foremost, from engaging in acts that might make them complicit in the commission of crimes that could result in their prosecution a la JASTA, or Nuremberg, or the Eichmann trial?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @iffen
  118. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I suppose you mean Julius Streicher, Nazi boss of Franconia, a noted pervert [homosexual] and one of the most unsavoury characters in the Third Reich.

    He was a bitter rival of Adolf’s – in vying for political upper-hand that is, not child pornography, this latter talent exclusively his own.

    Here is Shirer:

    He became known as the ”uncrowned King of Franconia” with the center of his power in Nuremberg, where his word was law and where no one who crossed him or displeased him was safe from prison and torture. Until I faced him slumped in the dock at Nuremberg, on trial for his life as a war criminal, I never saw him without a whip in his hand or in his belt, and he laughingly boasted of the countless lashings he had meted out.

    And I mention nothing – nor wish to – regarding that degenerate’s contributions to the Holocaust.

    Be careful, your reputation tends to get cemented by the company you defend so zealously.

  119. Are you suggesting that Streicher was executed for being a pervert?

    Or are you complaining that he encroached upon what, according to Nathan Abrams in Jewish Quarterly, is a Jewish-dominated marketplace:

    secular Jews have played (and still continue to play) a disproportionate role throughout the adult film industry in America. Jewish involvement in pornography has a long history in the United States, as Jews have helped to transform a fringe subculture into what has become a primary constituent of Americana. These are the ‘true blue Jews’.

    Smut peddlers

    Jewish activity in the porn industry divides into two (sometimes overlapping) groups: pornographers and performers. Though Jews make up only two per cent of the American population, they have been prominent in pornography. Many erotica dealers in the book trade between 1890 and 1940 were immigrant Jews of German origin. According to Jay A. Gertzman, author of Bookleggers and Smuthounds:The Trade in Erotica, 1920-1940 (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999), ‘Jews were prominent in the distribution of gallantiana [fiction on erotic themes and books of dirty jokes and ballads], avant-garde sexually explicit novels, sex pulps, sexology, and flagitious materials’.

    In the postwar era, America’s most notorious pornographer was Reuben Sturman, the ‘Walt Disney of Porn’. According to the US Department of Justice, throughout the 1970s Sturman controlled most of the pornography circulating in the country. Born in 1924, Sturman grew up in Cleveland’s East Side. Initially, he sold comics and magazines, but when he realized sex magazines produced twenty times the revenue of comic books, he moved exclusively into porn, eventually producing his own titles and setting up retail stores. By the end of the 1960s, Sturman ranked at the top of adult magazine distributors and by the mid-70s he owned over 200 adult bookstores. Sturman also introduced updated versions of the traditional peepshow booth (typically a dark room with a small colour TV on which the viewer can view X-rated videos). It was said that Sturman did not simply control the adult-entertainment industry; he was the industry. Eventually he was convicted of tax evasion and other crimes and died, disgraced, in prison in 1997. His son, David, continued running the family business.

    There’s a book making the rounds, a memoir of a Jewish woman who fled from her “neurotic” Jewish mother in NYC, to Israel, where she joined the IDF. The author wrote that her journey was “heroic”, and that she found herself in the company of her IDF colleagues who “just couldn’t wait to get into Gaza and shoot Arabs.” The contrast, here, is between a woman who fled from her mother, an accomplished pianist who was “neurotic” because she disliked Israel, and a man who apparently stuck with his father and carried on his porn business.
    Which one’s the degenerate?
    The reviews for Dor Sasson’s memoir that disses her mother and favors IDF companions who express Arab-killing bloodlust are overwhelming positive, even glowing. Apparently a lot of people — one would expect, predominantly Jews, “defend” such “company.”
    Similarly, the Jewish community in Cleveland does not appear to have ostracized the Sturman family. Is that “good for the Jews?” “Be careful, your reputation tends to get cemented by the company you defend so zealously. ”

    Nathan Abrams continues:

    The contemporary incarnation of Sturman is 43-year-old Jewish Clevelander Steven Hirsch, who has been described as ‘the Donald Trump of porno’. The link between the two is Steve’s father, Fred, who was a stockbroker-cum-lieutenant to Sturman. Today Hirsch runs the Vivid Entertainment Group, which has been called the Microsoft of the porn world, the top producer of ‘adult’ films in the US. His specialty was to import mainstream marketing techniques into the porn business. Indeed, Vivid parallels the Hollywood studio system of the 1930s and 1940s, particularly in its exclusive contracts to porn stars who are hired and moulded by Hirsch. Vivid was the subject of a behind-the-scenes reality TV show recently broadcast on Channel 4.

    Nice Jewish girls and boys

    Jews accounted for most of the leading male performers as well as a sizeable number of female stars in porn movies of the 1970s and ‘80s. The doyen of the Hebrew studs is Ron Jeremy. Known in the trade as ‘the Hedgehog’, Jeremy is one of America’s biggest porn stars. The 51-year-old Jeremy was raised in an upper-middle-class Jewish family in Flushing, Queens, and has since appeared in more than 1,600 adult movies, as well as directing over 100. Jeremy has achieved iconic status in America, a hero to males of all ages, Jewish and gentile alike – he’s the nebbischy, fat, hairy, ugly guy who gets to bed dozens of beautiful women. He presents an image of a modern-day King David, a Jewish superstud who supersedes the traditional heroes of Jewish lore. No sallow Talmud scholar he. His stature was recently cemented with the release of a pornomentary about his life, Porn Star: The Legend of Ron Jeremy. As probably the most famous Jewish male porn star, Jeremy has done wonders for the psyche of Jewish men in America.

    Under what charges should David Sturman be tried? http://www.jewishquarterly.org/issuearchive/articled325.html?articleid=38

    How about Steven Hirsch, “the Donald Trump of porn?”

    Speaking of Donald Trump, in light of recent revelations of his compulsion to be surrounded by, and have access to, beautiful women, what might a reasonable person conclude from this photo of Arnon Milchan, and should he be tried and executed for spying on the USA for Israel or for what the media has judged, in the case of Trump, his disgusting misogynistic habits? http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightly-news/hollywood-producer-admits-to-being-israeli-spy-74945603827

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Sam Shama
  120. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    As I said I am not about to elaborate on Streicher’s role in the Holocaust – there was more than sufficient cause, and you are hardly the jurist to start dissenting with the Nuremberg bench – it is simply that I have no wish to turn this into another jackbooted ecstasy for you pleasure; and the editor’s displeasure, I might note. Streicher was a perverted criminal against humanity.

    It’s only your typical muddle-headed tosh which confuses all jews as subscribing to uniform tastes. Pornography and sexual perversion are revolting and carry no qualifying reservations of utility based on religion. Or do you tar all catholics for the historically pedophilic church?

    What about the septuagenarian Israeli citizen Arnon Milchan bragging about playing Bond and procuring nuclear switches? Had the U.S. any wish to prosecute him they’d have done so already, and as far as I am concerned put the old bastard in gaol – or the gallows; couldn’t care less. Nuclear science and technology have a chequered history and European jews have been at the very centre of it all, from bringing it to the U.S. to extending it afterwards for civilian purposes.

  121. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    [Speaking of Donald Trump, in light of recent revelations of his compulsion to be surrounded by, and have access to, beautiful women, what might a reasonable person conclude from this photo of Arnon Milchan]

    Missed this part earlier. What on earth are you getting at? Donald’s history as a hound dog has what to do with Arnon?

    Are you saying since the media has uniformly [well except Hannity I suppose] condemned DT, they ought to focus their attention on a Joo called Milchan as well? I think that tenuous equivalence is what they call a brain fart in New York.

    Ok I’ll take my leave at this point. The perspicacity weighs on me.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  122. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    “ordinary people” were complicit in the alleged holocaust

    It was war, deprivation was commonplace. A person has the right to try and survive, right?

    I just did my job. All I did was drop these little pellets into the tube, what happened after that I can’t say, that part was not part of my job. Well yes, I did notice that thousands of people arrived on the trains and hardly any left the camp. The camp seemed small but I guess it could have held a couple million people without me noticing. I never really thought about it.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  123. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    This hypocrisy about Trump is pathetic. If he were a sports figure or actor, guys would be doing fist pumps, “What a stud,” and women would admit to lining up to be touched by money.
    He’ll bounce back big time. He handled the debate well, and is finally putting it to Hillary.

    GROPER BEATS KILLER

    VOTE TRUMP!

  124. @iffen

    You got the idea, iffen:

    A million or more people are dead in Iraq because of American actions there.

    The GI Joe or Jane who flagged down the runway the fighter jet that dropped the bombs on innocent civilians — or “insurgents”** are complicit in war crimes: WE ACKNOWLEDGE that we waged war on Iraq under false pretenses: WHY are we still there? We are committing war crimes. — (**watch this conversation with the brilliant Jeff Halper as he observes how Israeli practices have even changed the language we used — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVa0QbH8YcA

    In turn, Halper made me think of the Roger Waters production, The Occupation of the American Mind

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDoQAhMpFJc )– anyway, all of those people were “just doing their job.”

    Sam is correct, I’m no jurist, but it seems to me Nuremberg rejected the defense, “I was just doing my job.” Hundreds of Germans who were “just following orders,” or “just doing their job,” were convicted and punished.

    Subsequently, Jews have used US institutions as well as Israeli institutions to prosecute numerous other people who were “just doing their jobs,” — jobs like handling baggage at train stations: such men have been hounded down, even at age 93, prosecuted by Jews, convicted and punished.

    If the notion of “equal justice under the law” means anything, and should be considered a pillar of civilized society, than an American, or an Israeli, who engaged in similar activity that resulted in the death or harm to the person or property of an Iraqi, or a Syrian, or a Libyan, should likewise be subject to being hounded, for the rest of his/her natural life, and subject to prosecution and punishment for those crimes.

    I think every Congressional staffer, every civilian truck driver who delivers MANPADs that find their way to Syria, every warehouse clerk who gathers and loads the truck — every person who fits any of the categories that David Engel describes in “Understanding the Holocaust” — all of those people should be warned that what they are doing amounts to participation in a war crime, and they will be held accountable.

    The German people as a collective were punished for being citizens of a state that committed acts retroactively defined as war crimes. If they actively participated, they were held accountable for their actions. If they failed to resist, they were held accountable for their inaction. They were starved, kept homeless for anywhere from two to five years after the hot war ended. They were subjected to psychological warfare, they were brainwashed, they were coerced to deny their own identity.

    How are the American people who pay the taxes and elect legislators who authorize war crimes any less culpable than the German people, and why should they not expect to be held accountable for their war crimes?

    • Replies: @iffen
  125. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Otherwise, not much to see there.

    I’m not so sure, Sam. I went back and I reread her letter and was struck by this sentence:

    You all seem to be caught up in it, except for a very small and extraordinary minority of people who can see Zionism for what it is.

    It kind’a reminded me of a sentence you once wrote, not too long ago, here at Unz:

    I do not support any longer what passes for Zionism, nor am I willing to pine for what it used to be. It is an immoral cause.

    I’m confused, Sam. Do you no longer consider yourself to be “one of the very small and extraordinary minority of people who can see Zionism for what it is” or do you still “pine for what it used to be”? Is it a moral or immoral cause? Which is it, Sam?

  126. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    why should they not expect to be held accountable for their war crimes?

    Well, number one is that you have to actually lose the war and fall under the more or less complete control of the other power(s).

  127. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    why should they not expect to be held accountable for their war crimes?

    Well, number one is that you have to actually lose the war and fall under the more or less complete control of the other power(s).

    Well, number one is that you have to actually be an African ruler:

    The list of people who have been indicted in the ICC includes all individuals who have been indicted on any counts of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, or contempt of court in the ICC pursuant to the Rome Statute…

    To date, the ICC has opened investigations into ten situations… in: (1) the Democratic Republic of the Congo; (2) Uganda; (3) the Central African Republic I; (4) Darfur, Sudan; (5) the Kenya; (6) Libya; the (7) Côte d’Ivoire; the (8) Mali; (9) the Central African Republic II; and (10) Georgia. The ICC has publicly indicted 39 people… Proceedings against 22 are ongoing… Proceedings against 17 have been completed…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court

    • Replies: @geokat62
  128. @iffen

    So the iffen standard for Equal Justice Under the Law amounts to who wins vs who loses? Even Curtis LeMay saw the moral queasiness of that position.

    It’s an especially dodgy standard given that the Allies committed war crimes in order to “win” the war — they deliberately firebombed civilians, including the deliberate, planned and rehearsed targeting of infants in their cribs for incineration by firebombing —

    DUGWAY PROVING GROUND,
    GERMAN-JAPANESE VILLAGE, GERMAN VILLAGE
    HISTORIC AMERICAN ENGINEERING RECORD [HAER} INTERMOUNTAIN SUPPORT OFFICE – DENVER National Park Service U.S. Department of the Interior
    https://cdn.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/ut/ut0500/ut0568/data/ut0568data.pdf
    page 16,

    In the bedroom, the single beds were placed together in pairs, with a crib ■adjacent, reflective of a young family with an infant. During preliminary penetration tests with dummy bombs all furnishings except the rugs were removed, with windows and doors closed

    One difference between the scenario you described @ #128 and this commentary/my argument is that your scenario is spun from your imagination, whereas mine is evidence-based and documented.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @iffen
  129. @iffen

    Give it time, it will happen.

  130. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    It’s an especially dodgy standard given that the Allies committed war crimes in order to “win” the war — they deliberately firebombed civilians, including the deliberate, planned and rehearsed targeting of infants in their cribs for incineration by firebombing —

    I certainly understand why you choose to read history selectively.

    Iffen happens to be correct in his assessment of war crimes legislation and prosecution. If you have a superior solution which does not involve large quantities of pseudo-moralistic gaseous emissions do let us know.

    The list of crimes on civilian populations – and you can continue to belittle the Holocaust as you always do, until that one day when you will get caught pushing it just a bit too far – committed by Adolf and his cronies have sprouted many dissertations – and my meagre pen might prove unequal to do justice in as comprehensive a manner as the subject deserves. In that vein I offer the following episodes:

    [By way of a further note permit me to also mention that Incitatus had written in response to these very dronings of your’s, but you are like a recessive gene, lurking in the background ready to spring into action whenever the environment is unwary]

    [MORE]

    [Just before Barbarossa was to be unleashed on Russia in 1941, there was a coup in Yugoslavia, following that little primping pipsqueak Mussolini’s idiotic move into Albania]

    Take it from William H. Shirer:

    The coup in Belgrade threw Adolf Hitler into one of the wildest rages of his entire life. He took it as a personal affront and in his fury made sudden decisions which would prove utterly disastrous to the fortunes of the Third Reich.

    He hurriedly summoned his military chieftains to the Chancellery in Berlin
    on March 27. [..]

    He was therefore determined, ”without waiting for possible declarations of loyalty of the new government, to destroy Yugoslavia militarily and as a nation. No diplomatic inquiries will be made,” he ordered, ” and no ultimatums presented.” Yugoslavia, he added, would be crushed with ”unmerciful harshness.” He ordered Goering then and there to ”destroy Belgrade
    in attacks by waves,” with bombers operating from Hungarian air bases. He issued Directive No. 25 for the immediate invasion of Yugoslavia and told Keitel and Jodl to work out that very evening the military plans. He instructed Ribbentrop to advise Hungary, Rumania and Italy that they would all get a slice of Yugoslavia, which would be divided up among them, except for a small Croatian puppet state.

    [..]

    At dawn on April 6, his armies in overwhelming strength fell on Yugoslavia and Greece, smashing across the frontiers of Bulgaria, Hungary and Germany itself with all their armor and advancing rapidly against poorly armed defenders dazed by the usual preliminary bombing
    from the Luftwaffe. Belgrade itself, as Hitler ordered, was razed to the ground. For three successive days and nights Goering’s bombers ranged over the little capital at rooftop level – for the city had no antiaircraft guns killing 17,000 civilians, wounding
    many more and reducing the place to a mass of smouldering rubble.
    ”Operation Punishment,” Hitler called it, and he obviously was satisfied that his commands had been so effectively carried out.
    The Yugoslavs, who had not had time to mobilize their tough little army and whose General Staff made the mistake of trying to defend the whole country, were overwhelmed.

    Yugoslavia and Greece, which Hitler had just crushed, were brutally attacked without provocation, and they had instinctively tried to defend themselves because they had a sense of honour and because they had courage even in the face of hopeless odds.

    Now take Babarossa which followed in the footsteps of the massacre of Belgrade, was to begin on June 22, 1941.

    Again, here is Shirer:

    THE PLANNING OF THE TERROR

    No holds were to be barred in the taking of Russia. Hitler insisted that the generals understand this very clearly. Early in March 1941, he convoked the chiefs of the three armed services and the key Army field commanders and laid down the law. Haider took down his words.
    The war against Russia [Hitler said] will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. All officers will have to rid themselves of obsolete ideologies. I know that the necessity for such means of waging war is beyond the comprehension of you generals but . . . I insist absolutely that my orders be executed without contradiction. The commissars are the bearers of ideologies directly opposed to National Socialism. Therefore the commissars
    will be liquidated. German soldiers guilty of breaking international law . . . will be excused. Russia has not participated in the Hague Convention and therefore has no rights under it.
    Thus was the so-called ”Commissar Order” issued; it was to be much discussed at the Nuremberg trial when the great moral question was posed to the German generals whether they should have obeyed the orders of the Fuehrer to commit war crimes or obeyed their own consciences.
    According to Haider, as he later remembered it, the generals were outraged at this order and, as soon as the meeting was over, protested to their Commander in Chief, Brauchitsch. This spineless Field Marshal† promised that he would ”fight against this order in the form it was given.” Later, Haider swears, Brauchitsch informed OKW in writing that the officers of the Army ”could never execute such orders.” But did he?

    In his testimony on direct examination at Nuremberg Brauchitsch admitted that he took no such action with Hitler ”because nothing in the world could change his attitude.” What the head of the Army did, he told the tribunal, was to issue a written order that ”discipline in the Army was to be strictly observed along the lines and regulations that applied in the past.” ”You did not give any order directly referring to the Commissar Order?” Lord Justice Lawrence, the peppery president of the tribunal, asked Brauchitsch. ”No,” he replied. ”I could not rescind the order directly.”

    The old-line Army officers, with their Prussian traditions, were given further occasion to struggle with their consciences by subsequent directives issued in the name of the Fuehrer by General Keitel on May 13. The principal one limited the functions of German courts-martial. They were to give way to a more primitive form of law.

    ”It was the first time I found myself involved in a conflict between my soldierly conceptions and my duty to obey,” Field Marshal von Manstein declared on the stand at Nuremberg in discussing the Commissar Order. ” Actually, I ought to have obeyed, but I said to myself that as a soldier I could not possibly co-operate in a thing like that. I told the Commander of the Army Group under which I served at that time . . . that I would not carry out such an order, which was against the honor of a soldier.”

    As a matter of record, the order, of course, was carried out on a large scale.
    †”A man of straw,” Hitler later called him. (Hitler’s Secret Conversations, p. 153.)

    We all know the size of civilians deliberately murdered by Nazi Germans only through Dec 1941: at least 800,000.

    The little conclusion of this post is obvious: there were plenty of civilian deaths to go around, but S2C chooses to commemorate only those of German “Aryans”. War crimes prosecutions are carried out by victors, and thus it shall always be.

    I, for my part am terribly pleased to be speaking the King’s tongue and not subjected to compulsory sauerkraut for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

  131. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    the iffen standard for Equal Justice Under the Law

    Ulysses Everett McGill: It ain’t the law!
    Sheriff Cooley: The law? The law is a human institution.

    I can’t defend all the actions and policies of my country over these many years.

    Some I condemn; some I defend and about some I am conflicted.

    I am conflicted over whether giving the bastards a fair trial before hanging them was the way to go.

  132. @Sam Shama

    King David spoke English?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  133. @Sam Shama

    I, for my part am terribly pleased to be speaking the King’s tongue and not subjected to compulsory sauerkraut for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

    Surely MacDonalds would have been far more successful mass marketing haggis burgers and boiled neeps & tatties rather than Hamburg-ers and French-fried potatoes. And what’s a baseball game without a fine King’s English dish of deviled kidneys, hold the mustard.


    nb. your reliance on Shirer is so earnest, so child-like, so last century. Just the other day a client told me mid-century modern is all the rage.
    You are aware, aren’t you, that Shirer was on the OSS – CIA payroll to produce propaganda, which included atrocity propaganda?

    It may well be true that the Germans did whatever it is you claim Shirer said they did.
    But because the field has been so completely corrupted by propaganda masquerading as history, one really can’t know if it’s the real turtle soup or merely the mock.

    Historian Thomas Fleming has reflected that the first fifty years or so of commentary about an event like WWII is overladen with emotion; it takes at least that long for the emotion to burn off and the necessary cold objectivity to take its place.
    Furthermore, as Thomas Mahl observed in “Desperate Deception,” many archives are still not open to examination by historians, but also that the gradual opening of some archives, such as limited access to British code-breaking files, has meant that “all of the histories prior to the 1970s and 1980s must be rewritten.” Shirer produced his magnum opus — aka his get-out-of-bankruptcy-opus — in the mid-1950s iirc. Why, according to professor David Engel in “Understanding the Holocaust,” the special character of the holocaust was not spotlighted until after the Eichmann trial in the early 1960s.

    No doubt you’ve read Shirer diligently, m’boy; and you’ve done a fine job of type-and-paste. But while the information may or may not be corrupt, it’s certainly out-of-date; yesterday’s haggis n neeps.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
    , @L.K
  134. Sam Shama says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    You mightn’t know, but Kingsley Amis ring a bell? “The King’s English” , [St. Martin’s Press].

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  135. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    it’s certainly out-of-date

    Zvi Rex once remarked: “The Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz.”

    He was wrong. It’s the Jew-haters that will never forgive, not the Germans.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  136. @iffen

    Who is Zvi Rex and why should I care?
    Moreover, a quick search revealed that the quote is wrongly attributed to Rex.
    FAIL, iffen.

    It seems more important to understand how and why events took place as they actually did. History is one of the pillars used to create policy for present and future actions. If the foundation is distorted, the analysis based upon it cannot possibly be sound.

    Reasoning backward, from the hash that is present US foreign policy, is the most damning indictment conceivable of the accuracy of historical reporting on such (grossly fraudulent) events as Auschwitz.

    This morning Martin Smith, who offers a very serious deportment, seeming to be very trustworthy, appeared on C Span to talk about a Frontline documentary about ISIS.

    I’d never heard of the guy, and I don’t watch mainstream/cable teevee, but listening to just 30 min. of the guy made it obvious that he’s today’s version of William Shirer. His job is no different from the British propagandists Ron Unz reviewed here; namely, to propagandize a sufficient proportion of the American people to acquiesce to more war in the Middle East, with specific goals to further vilify Iran and to bring about the total destruction, then partition, of Syria.

    What “superpower” other than the USA made such consistent and persistent use of hate-mongering with the goal of inducing people to kill their brother- and sister-humans in far-away places?
    (Answer: Yes: the British. Our sainted Mother.)

    The American people have had this done to them before — they were propagandized to hate Germans, at a time when Germans comprised the second-largest ethnic group in the USA. The target today is “Islamic radicals” with special attention to Iran: they must be hated, preparatory to killing them. How stupid are we to allow the same stunt to be pulled on us again?

    And whose team is iffen on if-en he/she continues to obscure the facts and label those who try to point out the obvious patterns, as “Jew haters?” iffen is not doing Jews any favors, and he/she is certainly not promoting the best interests of the American people.

    • Replies: @iffen
  137. @Sam Shama

    Kingsley Amis, father of Martin Amis, concocter of holocaust-porn
    https://www.c-span.org/video/?322861-1/explaining-hitler-zone-interest

    The Amis family has done almost as well as the Sturman family in producing porn, Amis’s peculiar kink being setting a love story atop a meadow heaving with Jewish corpses (actually, skeletons — no, actually, Jewish femurs) against a backdrop of lampshades made of Jewish skin. Charming and oh so believable.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  138. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I’ll be the first to admit that history is subject on which I am inadequately trained. Yet I am on my way to remedying that shortcoming. I’ve finished Shirer, Anatoli Kuznetsov’s Babi Yar, Brigitte Hamman’s Hitler’s Vienna and yes, Adolf’s own, strange, ruminations. I’ve got a long list to read [provided by Incitatus] but that’s all I could do in about two months, yet I daresay now that I’ve put my mind to it, it won’t take me quite as many years as it must have taken you to fill that deep wellspring which produces repetitious drivel with all the incessant drudgery of zealotry untouched by wisdom. It’s oddly humourous that you should dismiss cut and paste, you being the indubitable champion of that particular sport. For instance, I might point out when you write extemporaneously [as I am now], you often produce howlers. Shall I reference a recent one?

    Your casual dismissive manner suggests you haven’t really studied Shirer, 1245 pages with diligently referenced primary source documentation, including living testimonies, copious diary entries and the official memoranda of most of the top Nazi warlords: Goebbels, Goering, Halder, Ribbentrop, Fritsch, Neurath, Schacht, Rosenberg etc., not to mention the ‘thoughts’ of some of the valkyrie women led by dear Magda.

    So, directly displaying Shirer’s writing is far more effective than a paraphrase, and I should like you to prove which portions constitute “may or may not be true” in your risible claim. The ‘may not’ part, that is. You will require more than a handful of straws to grasp at, for those portions are direct personal diary entries, addended further by official Nazi memoranda. [e.g., there is nothing ‘subjective’ about Directive 25 on the Belgrade massacre, and only an idiot would claim otherwise]

    There are commenters on this board – it’s easy to discern – who are fine historians: Incitatus, 5371, Random Observer and Iffen. I thought you might have some good insights, but your obvious proclivities negate the positives.

    On a final note, deviled kidneys [w/Worcester sauce] are scrumptious; even better on buttered crumpets with a side of eggs. Beats overpriced boiled starches with tomato paste any day of the week.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @iffen
  139. iffen says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    the best interests of the American people

    Got that certifying document yet?

    Americans don’t hate Germans and never have. They hate Nazis as well they should.

  140. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    You clearly know little of substance about Kingsley. Prose styling is an art-form and ….well I’d better not say it.

  141. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    Well, number one is that you have to actually be an African ruler…

    Just to reinforce this point a little further:

    Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel “unsigned” the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.

    Israel states that it has “deep sympathy” with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to “invent new crimes”. It cites the inclusion of “the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory” as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which was prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute_of_the_International_Criminal_Court

  142. L.K says:
    @Sam Shama

    Zionist activist and serial LIAR, Sam Shame(less):

    Yet I am on my way to remedying that shortcoming. I’ve finished Shirer, Anatoli Kuznetsov’s Babi Yar, Brigitte Hamman’s Hitler’s Vienna…

    Right, right… by reading a bunch of propaganda books & regurgitating it here? tsc, tsc, tsc..
    FYI, the Babi Yar story is a fraud, a debunked fraud. Not that you woud know it or accept that of course… not even if a mountain of evidence stood in your face!

    Besides being a Zionist activist and a proven liar, Sam is also a good comedian!
    He goes:

    “There are commenters on this board – it’s easy to discern – who are fine historians: Incitatus, 5371, Random Observer and Iffen.”

    Buahahaha, good one, Sammy boy!! Your inclusion of iffen & incitatus was particularly amusing!

    Why do YOU support open debate on the Holocaust?

    Sorry Mom, I was wrong about the Holocaust

  143. L.K says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Solonto to Shama

    You are aware, aren’t you, that Shirer was on the OSS – CIA payroll to produce propaganda, which included atrocity propaganda?

    A better question would be; if he did, would he care?? The answer is clearly ‘NO’.

    This is the sort of person, who, with a straight face, tells us that the reason the cowardly idf took a drubbing in South Lebanon, 2006, was because, you see, the idf sissies adhere to such strict ROE!!

    That despite the fact that is well documented that they carpet bombed Lebanon to such an extent, that even US military observers were appalled. Methinks the thousands of civilians killed and wounded must have felt otherwise.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  144. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I’ve finished Shirer

    Sam, after reading Shirer what is your opinion on his presentation of Sonderweg?

    From Wiki:
    The harshest criticism came from those who disagreed [with Shirer] with the Sonderweg or “Luther to Hitler” thesis.

    I remember this discussion from many years ago. I had to look up the name of the premise as I couldn’t remember it.

    BTW, I am reading an excellent bio of the original 88 himself, Hitler Ascent by Volker Ullrich.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  145. Sam Shama says:
    @L.K

    Do I hear the sounds of reptilian hissing?

    Forked tongues are typically not associated with cognitive faculties; still, as I enjoy watching snakes behind glass partitions in the zoo, I’ll throw you a little puzzle: it’s easy to claim someone or the other is a CIA/OSS agent etc.., etc. Have you any proof Directive 25, which Adolf called “Operation Punishment”, and which massacred 17000 Belgrade civilians did not occur?

    • Replies: @Avery
  146. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Hi Iffen,
    A fascinating question to which I’m afraid one feels tempted to write rather more expansively than modestly. Yet it is one which has more than merely crossed my mind for a period and which precedes my reading of Shirer, to find much in the persuasions of John Maynard Keynes.

    I am only a neophyte reader of history, especially of this period, and my thoughts are restricted to an assiduous reading of Keynes and only very recently, Shirer and a few others. So I claim it not a product of any expertise, only a personal and limited synopsis of my readings.

    I shall be traveling for the next 4 hrs, so permit me to get back on this thread in due course.

    P.S. I don’t recall Shirer directly tackling the notion of ‘Sonderweg’ in Rise and Fall, but of course there is a fair body of commentary on Luther and Mein Kampf. I am aware of the criticisms leveled at Shirer by Evans, and the counter-criticisms – a common enough occurrence in historical scholarship – but there is also Shirer’s honest admiring words of the early years of Nazism’s ascendancy as our ‘man on the ground’.

  147. Avery says:
    @Sam Shama

    Have some sympathy for the reptilian VaginaHund.

    The neo-Nazi Schweinhunden are still sore that the alleged ‘Master’ Race got royally Master F____ by thems Slavic Untermenschen.
    The Schweinhunden make excellent fertilizer for the rich Russian soil when properly chopped up into little chunks of schwein and slightly roasted.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @L.K
  148. iffen says:
    @Avery

    You go too far.

    The German soldiers who died at Stalingrad are not the equivalent of these current day Nazis.

    These current day Nazis are not entitled nor qualified to lick their boots.

    • Replies: @Avery
  149. Avery says:
    @iffen

    {The German soldiers who died at Stalingrad are not the equivalent of these current day Nazis.}

    Not far enough.

    The German soldiers, who, quote ‘died’ in Stalingrad were filthy, genocidal swine who had invaded SU to exterminate Slavs. F___ them.
    The Nazi German invaders may or may not be the equivalent of today’s neo-Nazis. But the Nazi German invaders had no business in Stalingrad, 1,000s of miles East of Germany.

    They killed and murdered ~25 million Soviet citizens.
    Pox on the vile neo-Nazi Schweinhunden.

    My ethnos, Armenians, sent ~600,000 men from a tiny population base in SU to stop the genocidal Nazi invaders. ~300,000 Armenians were KIA in WW2.
    Genocidal Turks had massed an invasion army on the border of Armenia SSR during the epic Battle of Stalingrad. If the Red Army had lost the battle, filthy nomad UygurTürkoğlar Turks were going to invade Armenia SSR, race to Baku and link up with Nazis who would swing South from Stalingrad and take the rich oilfields of Baku.
    Armenians would be totally wiped out.
    Same as Jews in Europe.
    For a Jew, which I take you to be, to defend Nazis is beyond vile.
    If the Red Army had not defeated Nazi Germany, the Jews in Europe would be completely exterminated.

    Thank God, the filthy Schweinhunden were cut to pork chops in Stalingrad.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Sam Shama
  150. iffen says:

    For a Jew, which I take you to be

    WTF, you are so consumed by hatred you can’t even think.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Avery
  151. L.K says:
    @Avery

    ‘VaginaHund?’ Really? Ouch!

    ava-ry, are you really so pathetic that you must now resort to using the very insults I have coined for you? Tsc, tsc, tsc…

    So, besides being a proven serial liar, a hysteric, a Shabbos goy, I must say ava-ry here is an extremely mediocre and dull creature as well, not even creative enough to come up with some name-calling of her own.

    It’s also amusing to watch the Zionist Jew, shama, and his disgusting Shabbos goyim blowjobing each other, you guys truly are a waste of space and food.

    P.S: Take the opportunity, ava-ry, and, like the miserable Shabbos goy you are, who eats crumbs from the zio table, to thank the Jews & their Hollywood;
    I hear that they have finally made an ‘armenian genocide’ movie! I hear it is sorta second rate & cheesy but you gotta enjoy it bc there probably won’t be another one for quite some time.
    Don’t forget to thank them, eh?

    • Replies: @Avery
  152. L.K says:
    @iffen

    ‘WTF, you are so consumed by hatred you can’t even think.’

    Hahaha, for once, ‘iffen’, you have got something right!!

  153. L.K says:
    @Avery

    Well, your entire silly post belongs to the fiction category.
    Soviet citizens – civilians & soldiers – were much more victims of your Stalinist heroes than of N.S Germany: first because, as I have explained in great detail in other posts, Stalin was very much responsible for bringing about the titanic conflict with NS Germany. If you corner a tiger, don’t go crying if it rips your arm off.
    Secondly, we need to examine how the Stalinist regime treated its own troops and civilians during the war, not to mention b4 and after. It amounted to complete disdain for human life.

    Meanwhile, in the real world, here is a small list of what your zionist heroes have been up to, just in regards to Russia:
    – Supported Georgia in the 2008 war and were enraged that Russia won. Zionists Max Boot and Charles Krauthammer called for various moves to isolate Russia from the West and from the international economic community.

    – have advocated massive US aid and alliances among Eastern European countries.

    – They supported the war that resulted in independence of Kosovo from Serbia, an ally of Russia.

    – They have supported Chechen independence from Russia.

    – NATO membership for Eastern European countries formerly dominated by the USSR, and the aggressive US policy of providing missiles to Poland and the Czech Republic.

    – They are fully behind the whole mess in the Ukraine and the sanctions on Russia.

    P.S. Given your latest hysterical outbursts, I’ve come to the conclusion you r beyond PMS meds. I fear if you continue down that path you run the risk of being carted off in a straight-jacket by men in white jackets to the loony bin. So sad…

    • Replies: @Avery
  154. Avery says:
    @L.K

    ‘ava-ry’

    Wow: is that best you can do, you pathetic little neo-Nazi.
    Typical of the progeny of stupid Brown Shirts.

    Nevertheless, we are still waiting for you to visit us in the City of Angels.
    Don’t forget to wear either your Schweinhund or VaginaHund mask.
    Hurry up, Halloween is just around the corner: you will be a hit at all the Halloween parties.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

  155. Avery says:
    @L.K

    Another one of VaginaHund’s irrational hallucinations: you seem to be having your periods every couple of days.
    Is that normal for a VaginaHund ?
    Shouldn’t you see your vet, like very soon?

    {Stalin was very much responsible for bringing about the titanic conflict with NS Germany. }

    You wish: that neo-Nazi revisionism has been thoroughly debunked.
    Try something else.

    {If you corner a tiger, don’t go crying if it rips your arm off.}

    Is that what you call it you stupid period-addled VaginaHund?
    -Red Army troops raising the red banner over the alleged ‘1000 year’ Reichstag.
    -All the Nazi coward leaders committing suicide, before they could be hanged.
    Untermenschen pissing on the ashes of the your Führer.
    -Desperate Nazi Losers sending German children and old men to take on T-34s rolling into Berlin.
    …………
    Is that what you call a supposed ‘tiger’?
    More like a little pussycat: you know, a VaginaHund.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

    Oh, almost forgot. When you come to LA, make sure your jackboots are cleaned an polished. But don’t wear your swastika armband: lots of Jews in the greater Los Angeles area. You never know; they might take offense and do something crazy. We want you safe and sound during your visit in our City of Angles.

  156. Avery says:
    @iffen

    WTF back at you.

    {The German soldiers who died at Stalingrad are not the equivalent of these current day Nazis.
    These current day Nazis are not entitled nor qualified to lick their boots.}

    The Nazi German invaders that were cut down to little bits of pork-chops in Stalingrad actually murdered millions of civilians, including large numbers of your tribe. If they had not been defeated, no Slavs or other Untermenschen would be left alive.

    Current day neo-Nazis do nothing more than hallucinate in the blogosphere about the good-old Nazi days, and try to blame everybody else for the crimes of their ‘heroes’.

  157. Sam Shama says:
    @Avery

    Avery,
    Like all reptiles, L.K. received his baccalaureate from ‘institutions’ burrowed deep underground, where the “Sun don’t shine “, and blimey, does it just show!

    You are quite right regarding Adolf’s bedrock intentions toward Russia. His pact with Stalin had not changed it at all, but merely postponed acting on it. And but briefly. In fact, less than two months after the deal was signed and had been utilised to destroy Poland the Fuehrer instructed the Army that the conquered Polish territory was to be regarded ”as an assembly area for future German operations.” The date was October 18, 1939, and Haider recorded it that day in his diary.

    Actually Adolf’s generals wanted to move directly for Moscow, where the armaments factories lay. But Adolf had other plans. You are spot on when you write “If the Red Army had lost the battle [Stalingrad], filthy nomad UygurTürkoğlar Turks were going to invade Armenia SSR, race to Baku and link up with Nazis who would swing South from Stalingrad and take the rich oilfields of Baku.

    Anyway getting back to Hitler’s intentions, the forked tongue reptile, who may or may not have read Mein Kampf, chooses to remain willfully mendacious or ignorant. You pick. This is what firmly entwined the brains of the Nazi corporal turned warlord re: Russia:

    From Mein Kampf

    And so we National Socialists take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement toward the south and west of Europe and turn our gaze toward the lands of the East … When we speak of new territory in Europe today we must think principally of Russia and her border vassal states. Destiny itself seems to wish to point out the way to us here . . . This colossal empire in the East is ripe for dissolution, and the end of the Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state.

    P.S. if you notice our intermittent reptile hisses much, but has not been able to come up with a refutation of my little challenge to him re: the civilian massacre of Belgrade in #151.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  158. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Anyway getting back to Hitler’s intentions…

    Hey, Sam. Since you’re quoting AH, I decided to read his “magnum opus,” myself. I’ve just finished wrapping up Ch. 2. It ends with this passage:

    The Jewish doctrine of Marxism repudiates the aristocratic principle of Nature and substitutes for it the eternal privilege of force and energy, numerical mass and its dead weight. Thus it denies the individual worth of the human personality, impugns the teaching that nationhood and race have a primary significance, and by doing this it takes away the very foundations of human existence and human civilization. If the Marxist teaching were to be accepted as the foundation of the life of the universe, it would lead to the disappearance of all order that is conceivable to the human mind. And thus the adoption of such a law would provoke chaos in the structure of the greatest organism that we know, with the result that the inhabitants of this earthly planet would finally disappear.

    Should the Jew, with the aid of his Marxist creed, triumph over the people of this world, his Crown will be the funeral wreath of mankind, and this planet will once again follow its orbit through ether, without any human life on its surface, as it did millions of years ago.

    And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.

    While I’ve just started reading the book, it seems to me that in his mind the German nation was locked in a life and death struggle for its future, between two competing ideologies, Bolshevism and Nationalism. If the Bolshevik ideology were to prevail, it would mean the end of his beloved German state. Kind of like the struggle Israelis find themselves in, today- between two competing ideologies, Zionism and Universalism (e.g., ethnocracies vs. liberal democratic gov’ts).

    Here’s where my confusion comes in… how could one oppose nationalism, yesterday… but be for it, today?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  159. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    It’s good to know that you’ve started reading it, and do let me know when completed, so that we might have a more wholistic discussion.

    I quoted that portion to reveal Hitler’s ulterior motives for Russia all along [did you notice?], in fact his motives for all ‘untermenschen‘. That passage, as well as others in Mein Kampf, his various Reichstag speeches, Table Talk gems, official Directives etc, taken together with the subsequent ravages he visited upon Europe: in Austria, Scandinavia, Sudetenland, Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, Russia – and which resulted in 55 million deaths – should not have surprised anyone, least of all the British political class starting with Chamberlain. So this notion that Hitler was double-crossed by Russia, which a certain class of reptilian worms try to peddle, is in a word, reptilian.

    On the question of Nationalism – noting your rather reverential tone for ‘his beloved Germany’ – I should like to hear your fuller views. Bare your chest, I’m sure you’ll overcome your confusion.

    My own thoughts? Quite straightforward really. I’ve got nothing against Nationalism per se. It can be quite useful and effective in the hands of a wise leadership which recognises the yearnings of it’s polity in a positive manner, and one which does not wage war against manifestly superior powers causing the death of 55 million. I think Iffen had summed it up nicely with down home wisdom: ‘If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on your porch’.

  160. geokat62 says:

    I’ve got nothing against Nationalism per se.

    What about the kind of nationalism that says Germany for the Germans… or Israel for the Jews? Do you have anything against this kind of nationalism?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  161. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    If the Bolshevik ideology were to prevail, it would mean the end of his beloved German state.

    What kind of German state did you mean?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  162. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    What kind of German state did you mean?

    The kind of German state that is modeled on Israel’s – i.e., ethnic nationalism.

    I guess what I’m driving at, Sam, is this… if you and other Zionists are prepared to embrace the idea that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state, for the Jewish people, why all the hostility to the idea that Germany had a right to exist as a German state, for the German people?

    I think it was Prof. Michael Neumann who distinguished between the two kinds of nationalism: ethnic and civic:

    From the rubble of the Nazi empire, the rubbish of ethnic nationalism rises up and takes an honoured place among our orthodoxies. From this rubbish comes the right of a fictitiously collective ‘Jewish people’ to a ‘homeland’…

    So a miracle appears among us. The very ideology of homelands and peoples under whose auspices the Jews were all but exterminated has become the sustaining ideology of Israel, a state devoted to Jewish ethnic sovereignty. This is why we always hear that Israel – not Israelis – has a right to exist. What matters are not the citizens of a state, but the state itself, the totemic icon of ‘the Jewish people’.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2009/10/14/fearsome-words/

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @iffen
  163. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    Oh, I almost missed this important footnote included at the end of Prof. Neumann’s article:

    I am not the first Jew to find the founding concept of Zionism unacceptable, and long ago a much more committed Jew went further than I. Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, expressed himself as follows – in 1944: “The concept of a racial state – the Hitlerian concept– is repugnant to the civilized world, as witness the fearful global war in which we are involved. . . , I urge that we do nothing to set us back on the road to the past. To project at this time the creation of a Jewish state or commonwealth is to launch a singular innovation in world affairs which might well have incalculable consequences.

    Look forward to your response, Sam.

  164. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    why all the hostility to the idea that Germany had a right to exist as a German state, for the German people

    I have no hostility toward the right of the Germans to an ethno nation state, then or now.

    He had that already when he was appointed Chancellor. The hostility comes from the slaughter of millions that ensued after that point. He could have stopped with the denial of citizenship for the Jews and their exclusion from all areas of finance, trade, academia, etc. Nation states have existed, and still do, with 2nd class citizens. The Jews were used to being expelled, most would have eventually emigrated. He didn’t have to burn the women and children in order to have a German nation state and there is no way around this point. If you try to go around this point you are a current year Nazi.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  165. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    I have no hostility toward the right of the Germans to an ethno nation state, then or now.

    Good to know, iffen.

    He didn’t have to burn the women and children in order to have a German nation state and there is no way around this point. If you try to go around this point you are a current year Nazi.

    I’m not the one trying to go around that point. I just struggle with people who can’t see that that same point applies to how the Zionist state is treating it’s non-Jewish people:

    He [Bibi] didn’t have to burn the women and children [of Gaza] in order to have a Jewish nation state and there is no way around this point.

    So, iffen, why aren’t those who try and go around this point current year Nazis?

  166. iffen says:

    So, iffen, why aren’t those who try and go around this point current year Nazis?

    They are not burning the Pals in ovens. They are pushing them aside and denying them the right to fully participate in Israeli civil society. I get the impression that some of the Israeli right wing nuts would fire up the ovens for the Pals.

    Many people, myself, and as best as I can tell, Sam and some others, do not defend the Israelis and their mistreatment of the Pals.

    What the Israelis are doing is normal ethno state territorial stuff. Hitler could have done the same thing. He could have expelled non-Germans. He could have seized the Germanic speaking territories not in Germany proper and expelled the non-Germanic speakers. He didn’t do that. He burned the women and children in ovens.

    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @geokat62
  167. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    They are not burning the Pals in ovens. They are pushing them aside and denying them the right to fully participate in Israeli civil society…

    What the Israelis are doing is normal ethno state territorial stuff.

    Interesting picture you’re painting there, iffen… just a little pushing and denying, but no burning – i.e., normal stuff?

    I guess this qualifies as normal in your books, since they’re not burning them in ovens:

    Israel’s repeated firing of white phosphorus shells over densely populated areas of Gaza during its recent military campaign was indiscriminate and is evidence of war crimes, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today…

    The IDF knew that white phosphorus poses life-threatening dangers to civilians, Human Rights Watch said. A medical report prepared during the recent hostilities by the Israeli ministry of health said that white phosphorus “can cause serious injury and death when it comes into contact with the skin, is inhaled or is swallowed.” Burns on less than 10 percent of the body can be fatal because of damage to the liver, kidneys, and heart, the ministry report says. Infection is common and the body’s absorption of the chemical can cause serious damage to internal organs, as well as death.

    https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes

    So gradual ethnic cleansing by constantly “mowing the lawn” every few years is ok, then – i.e., normal ethno state territorial stuff. Not anything like the ethnic cleansing of the Nazis. Is that the point you’re trying to make, iffen?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  168. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    So gradual ethnic cleansing by constantly “mowing the lawn”…

    And I would be remiss if I neglected to describe the backdrop against which these ugly episodes occur:

    Six and a half years ago, shortly after Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections and took charge of Gaza, a senior Israeli official described Israel’s planned response. “The idea,” he said, “is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.”

    Although Dov Weisglass was adviser to Ehud Olmert, the prime minister of the day, few observers treated his comment as more than hyperbole, a supposedly droll characterization of the blockade Israel was about to impose on the tiny enclave.

    Last week, however, the evidence finally emerged to prove that this did indeed become Israeli policy. After a three-year legal battle by an Israeli human rights group, Israel was forced to disclose its so-called “Red Lines” document. Drafted in early 2008, as the blockade was tightened still further, the defense ministry paper set forth proposals on how to treat Hamas-ruled Gaza.

    Health officials provided calculations of the minimum number of calories needed by Gaza’s 1.5 million inhabitants to avoid malnutrition. Those figures were then translated into truckloads of food Israel was supposed to allow in each day.

    The Israeli media have tried to present these chilling discussions, held in secret, in the best light possible. Even the liberal Haaretz newspaper euphemistically described this extreme form of calorie-counting as designed to “make sure Gaza didn’t starve.”

    But a rather different picture emerges as one reads the small print. While the health ministry determined that Gazans needed daily an average of 2,279 calories each to avoid malnutrition — requiring 170 trucks a day — military officials then found a host of pretexts to whittle down the trucks to a fraction of the original figure.

    The reality was that, in this period, an average of only 67 trucks — much less than half of the minimum requirement — entered Gaza daily. This compared to more than 400 trucks before the blockade began.

    To achieve this large reduction, officials deducted trucks based both on an over-generous assessment of how much food could be grown locally and on differences in the “culture and experience” of food consumption in Gaza, a rationale never explained.

    Experiments in social engineering
    Who can doubt — given the experiences of Gaza over the past few years — that there exist in the Israeli military’s archives other, still-classified documents setting out similar experiments in social engineering? Will future historians reveal that Israeli officials also pondered the fewest hours of electricity Palestinians in Gaza needed to survive, or the minimum amount of water, or the smallest living space per family, or the highest feasible levels of unemployment?

    Such formulas presumably lay behind the decision to bomb Gaza’s only power station in 2006 and subsequently to block its proper repair; the refusal to approve a desalination plant, the only way to prevent over-drilling contaminating the Strip’s underground water supply; the declaration of large swaths of farmland no-go areas, forcing the rural population into the already overcrowded cities and refugee camps; and the continuing blockade on exports, decimating Gaza’s business community and ensuring the population remains dependent on aid.

    It is precisely these policies by Israel that led the United Nations to warn in August that Gaza would be “uninhabitable” by 2020 (“Gaza in 2020 – A livable place?,” 27 August 2012).

    Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai… months before Operation Cast Lead, warned that Israel was preparing to inflict on Gaza a “shoah,” the Hebrew word for Holocaust.

    https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-starvation-diet-gaza/11810

  169. iffen says:

    normal ethno state territorial stuff

    Yes, most people can tell the diffence between normal territorial conflict and genocide, but you have to want to tell the difference.

    Compare Israel to any of the other states created by the Great Powers at the end of WWII and see what you find.

    The only people who want to compare Israel to Nazi Germany are current year Nazis and that is to try and excuse Hitler’s burning of women and children in the ovens.

    You can cut and paste all that you want. You may fool yourself and others, but I know what you are doing.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @geokat62
  170. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    The only people who want to compare Israel to Nazi Germany are current year Nazis and that is to try and excuse Hitler’s burning of women and children in the ovens.

    The only people, iffen? Weren’t you the one who once chided me about misusing terms such as all, many, few, none?

    What about a leading figure in Israeli society, Maj. Gen. Yair Golan, deputy chief of staff of the IDF? Is he a current year Nazi for comparing the Jewish State to Nazi-era Germany:

    [The Holocaust] must make us think deeply about the responsibility of leadership, the quality of society, and it must lead us to fundamental thinking about how we, here and now, treat the stranger, the orphan and the widow, and all who are like them.

    If there is one thing that frightens me about the memory of the Holocaust, it is identifying the revolting trends that occurred in Europe as a whole, and in Germany in particular, some 70, 80 and 90 years ago, and finding evidence of those trends here, among us, in 2016.

    There is nothing easier than to hate those who are different; there is nothing easier than to sow fear and terror; there is nothing easier than to behave like animals, conform and be self righteous. It is worthwhile, and even necessary, for Holocaust Remembrance Day to be a day of national soul searching. And in our national soul searching we must include phenomena that are very disturbing.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/08/the-israeli-general-who-compared-the-jewish-state-to-nazi-era-germany/

    Re your comment:

    You can cut and paste all that you want.

    Again, I offer original sources to accommodate your previous comment:

    Believing and presenting irrefutable evidence are not the same.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Sam Shama
  171. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    Yes, most people can tell the diffence between normal territorial conflict and genocide, but you have to want to tell the difference.

    I agree. Most people recognize that placing an entire population on a near starvation diet and shelling that same population, who are essentially defenseless, every few years is not something they consider to be normal territorial conflict… like the territorial disputes between India and Pakistan. But, as you say, you have to want to tell the difference.

  172. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    I really care not a whit for those “original” sources when they spread disinformation.

    A week earlier, the Observer, which is The Guardian’s Sunday sister publication, ran an op-ed piece by Nabilia Ramdani, introduced to readers as a “French-Arab journalist who worked extensively in Syria until the Arab Spring,” arguing against US military intervention in Syria.

    “Others point to the hypocrisy of the West, which continues to provide some of the most lethal weapons known to mankind to its political and trade allies,” she wrote. “USsourced white phosphorus shells – a chemical weapon that causes severe burning right down to the bone – were used by Israeli forces against Palestinians in Gaza in 2008 in breach of all international conventions, for example.”

    This paragraph raised the ire of the Israeli Embassy in London.

    The spokesman there, Yiftah Curiel, contacted the editors of the Observer and requested a correction that – after a degree of give and take – was indeed provided.

    “This is an example of zero tolerance for disinformation,” the official said. “If this goes unchallenged, then it becomes the conventional and accepted wisdom. It needs to be corrected.”

    Israeli officials said this “setting the record straight” was especially important in this case amid pernicious efforts – with the world’s attention focused on Assad’s use of chemical weapons – to blame Israel for having used chemical weapons in the past.

    http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Britains-iObserveri-issues-correction-Israel-did-not-use-chemical-weapons-In-Gaza-325529

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Sam Shama
  173. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Yair Golan is an honourable man, if somewhat excessively scrupulous. There are many such in the IDF. I had commented a few months back that changes are afoot principally on account of the IDF’s leadership systematically opposing Netanyahu. This trend needs to be supported, and less disinformation from Pallywood ought to help as well. Palestinians should adopt an attitude similar to the Druzim – i.e. pledge loyalty to the state and assimilate in the sense of adopting Israeli culture, which is for all functional purposes, Western. Some of that is already happening and I hope it continues. Those that do not wish it, are free to apply for emigration to Arab countries of their choice, but not to Europe or the U.S.

    My position is the following: Palestinians living in WB should be given citizenship or help [financial] to move to other Arab countries. No such offer needs to be extended to Gazans. Fact of the matter is many Arabs including Gazans wish to emigrate to Israel. This cannot be allowed for obvious demographic/living territory limitations. Israel is working out a wider deal with Egypt regarding Gaza and it will become clearer in the months ahead.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  174. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    I really care not a whit for those “original” sources when they spread disinformation.

    Speaking of disinformation, Sam, you should read more carefully the contents of the articles you reference.

    According to your article, what the Israelis had objected to was not that the UK publication accused them of using WP. No, what they objected to was that they had “equated [Israel’s] use of white phosphorous with Assad’s chemical arms use.” It’s right there in the final paragraph of your comment. Take a closer look.

    But, just to be on the safe side, I searched online to see if HRW was forced to retract the conclusions of their lengthy (71 page) report, but couldn’t find any evidence of that. Perhaps you may have better luck doing so.

    You will let us know if you do, Sam, won’t you?

    Oh, btw here is a link to HRW’s report, if you’d like to carefully read its contents.

    https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/03/25/rain-fire/israels-unlawful-use-white-phosphorus-gaza

  175. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    My position is the following…

    Interesting position, Sam. Just a few follow-up questions:

    Palestinians should adopt an attitude similar to the Druzim – i.e. pledge loyalty to the state and assimilate in the sense of adopting Israeli culture, which is for all functional purposes, Western.

    Are you suggesting that Pals should pledge loyalty to the Jewish state of Israel or to the state of Israel? Very important distinction, as you know.

    Those that do not wish it, are free to apply for emigration to Arab countries of their choice, but not to Europe or the U.S.

    Not sure I understand this requirement.

    No such offer needs to be extended to Gazans.

    Why treat Gazans differently from WB Pals? Don’t both have equal status as refugees from historic Palestine?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  176. Sam Shama says:
    @Sam Shama

    Disinformation because it is being peddled as “use of chemical weapons”. There were two instances of use, as smokescreens, a legal instrument in war, but to read your boldfaced entries, or to look at various “pictures” of babies covered in phosphorous, are nothing other than crude attempts at deceitful propaganda.

    Human rights watch is not a credible source, sorry. They are a propaganda arm of various international “victim” groups.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  177. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Are you suggesting that Pals should pledge loyalty to the Jewish state of Israel or to the state of Israel? Very important distinction, as you know.

    To the modern state of Israel, the body of laws of which are based entirely on western/U.K. common law principles. Halachic laws only apply to religious jews in the restricted sphere of their religious lives.

    You must know at the moment no Arab state, most importantly not Jordan, Egypt, Gulfs, Saudi wish to have anything to do with dealing with an incipient independent Palestinian entity; one which would be the meeting and breeding grounds for new terrorist groups with very high potential to sow increasing discord, angst and belligerence in their own domestic populations. This is the reality in the ME. The Palestinian leadership is corrupt to the core, living in style in Ramallah, Beirut, Paris and elsewhere; haven’t any talent nor yearning for nation-state building, their lives solely organised for victimhood mining. My visit earlier this year opened my eyes to another reality, a smaller microcosm of the social issues: thousands of unqualified, poorly prepared, WB Pals and Israeli Arabs are being admitted to Israeli Universities where they expect and are afforded preferential treatment very much in the model of U.S. blacks. This is a looming disaster for the obvious reasons.

    My attitude is a practical one. Gazans got their state, but it is a deeply flawed one which needs to be subsumed within a larger, successful nation, viz. Egypt.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @geokat62
  178. Sam Shama says:
    @Sam Shama

    I’ll say no more on this issue for the time being. Thx.

  179. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    There were two instances of use, as smokescreens, a legal instrument in war, but to read your boldfaced entries, or to look at various “pictures” of babies covered in phosphorous, are nothing other than crude attempts at deceitful propaganda.

    Sam, here is the summary section of HRW’s 71-page report:

    This report documents Israel’s extensive use of white phosphorus munitions during its 22-day military operations in Gaza, from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009, named Operation Cast Lead. Based on in-depth investigations in Gaza, the report concludes that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) repeatedly exploded white phosphorus munitions in the air over populated areas, killing and injuring civilians, and damaging civilian structures, including a school, a market, a humanitarian aid warehouse and a hospital.

    White phosphorus munitions did not kill the most civilians in Gaza – many more died from missiles, bombs, heavy artillery, tank shells, and small arms fire – but their use in densely populated neighborhoods, including downtown Gaza City, violated international humanitarian law (the laws of war), which requires taking all feasible precautions to avoid civilian harm and prohibits indiscriminate attacks.

    The unlawful use of white phosphorus was neither incidental nor accidental. It was repeated over time and in different locations, with the IDF “air-bursting” the munition in populated areas up to the last days of its military operation. Even if intended as an obscurant rather than as a weapon, the IDF’s repeated firing of air-burst white phosphorus shells from 155mm artillery into densely populated areas was indiscriminate and indicates the commission of war crimes.

    The dangers posed by white phosphorus to civilians were well-known to Israeli commanders, who have used the munition for many years. According to a medical report prepared during the hostilities by the ministry of health, “[w]hite phosphorus can cause serious injury and death when it comes into contact with the skin, is inhaled or is swallowed.” The report states that burns on less than 10 percent of the body can be fatal because of damage to the liver, kidneys and heart.

    When it wanted an obscurant for its forces, the IDF had a readily available and non-lethal alternative to white phosphorus-smoke shells produced by an Israeli company. The IDF could have used those shells to the same effect and dramatically reduced the harm to civilians.

    Using white phosphorus in densely populated areas as a weapon is even more problematic. Human Rights Watch found no evidence that Israeli forces fired ground-burst white phosphorous at hardened military targets, such as Palestinian fighters in bunkers, but it may have air-burst white phosphorous for its incendiary effect. Fired from artillery and air-burst to maximize the area of impact, white phosphorous munitions will not have the same lethal effect as high-explosive shells, but will be just as indiscriminate.

    The IDF’s deliberate or reckless use of white phosphorus munitions is evidenced in five ways. First, to Human Rights Watch’s knowledge, the IDF never used its white phosphorus munitions in Gaza before, despite numerous incursions with personnel and armor. Second, the repeated use of air-burst white phosphorus in populated areas until the last days of the operation reveals a pattern or policy of conduct rather than incidental or accidental usage. Third, the IDF was well aware of the effects white phosphorus has and the dangers it can pose to civilians. Fourth, if the IDF used white phosphorus as an obscurant, it failed to use available alternatives, namely smoke munitions, which would have held similar tactical advantages without endangering the civilian population. Fifth, in one of the cases documented in this report – the January 15 strike on the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) headquarters in Gaza City – the IDF kept firing white phosphorus despite repeated warnings from UN personnel about the danger to civilians. Under international humanitarian law, these circumstances demand the independent investigation of the use of white phosphorus and, if warranted, the prosecution of all those responsible for war crimes.

    The IDF at first denied using white phosphorus in Gaza, and then said it was using all weapons in compliance with international law. It now says it is conducting an investigation, reportedly run by a colonel, into the use of white phosphorus. Given the IDF’s record on previous internal investigations, and the relatively low rank of the reported investigation leader, the inquiry’s objectivity remains in doubt.

    With respect to:

    Human rights watch is not a credible source, sorry. They are a propaganda arm of various international “victim” groups.

    Are you suggesting that Kenneth Roth is a self-hating Jew, Sam:

    He said that his father would keep his three young sons quiet as he cut their hair by telling tales of their grandfather’s butcher shop in Frankfurt, Germany. Roth stated that as they grew older, his father told them about living under the Nazis as a young boy and fleeing Germany in July 1938.

    I guess the community would like to do the Kenneth Roth what they did to Judge Goldstone:

    HRW Founder Robert Bernstein said to the Jerusalem Post in April 2011, referring to Roth, that it “is time for him to follow Judge Goldstone’s example and issue his own mea culpa.”

  180. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    You must know at the moment no Arab state… wish to have anything to do with dealing with an incipient independent Palestinian entity…

    I know this, Sam. These Arab countries, all members of the Arab League, endorsed in 2002 and re-endorsed in 2007 The Arab Peace Initiative, a proposal for an end to the Arab–Israeli conflict .

    My attitude is a practical one. Gazans got their state…

    You call an open-air prison “a state,” Sam?

    Tales from Gaza: What is life really like in ‘the world’s largest outdoor prison’?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tales-from-gaza-what-is-life-really-like-in-the-worlds-largest-outdoor-prison-8567611.html

    [Gaza] needs to be subsumed within a larger, successful nation, viz. Egypt

    Why not just relocate them to Madagascar, Sam?

    • LOL: SolontoCroesus
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