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IQ or the Math/Verbal Split?
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Intelligence

As someone who’s been following HBD for the past 10 plus years or so, I’ve simultaneously been amused and enlightened by the passionate feelings the topic often engenders. The general conceit of the HBD crowd is that they possess deep insight into a body of scientific truth opening up new avenues of understanding entirely shut off from those cloistered in the comforting myths of PC. For the most part I’m sympathetic towards this sentiment. Rather than challenge the established tenets of HBD, this article is meant to clear up some of the conceptual muddle surrounding various HBD related discussions that I’ve been a part of over the years, whether directly or indirectly. I hope that my layman’s intuition might inspire others to think about the topic a bit differently. To my surprise, I’ve found that oftentimes people far smarter than myself still tend to think about the subject matter in rather rigid and constrained ways.

I often hear people talk about IQ as though it were some monolithic thing. No doubt this has been in large part due to the phenomenon of general intelligence or g, which supposedly explains why people’s performance on various mental subtasks seem to be correlated. If you’re above average in one cognitive area, you’re likely to be above average in others. [14]https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1998...or.pdf I want to argue for a different way of thinking about intelligence and HBD, one that doesn’t deny the importance of general intelligence but instead argues that for elite performance, math/verbal split probably matters more. Math/verbal split is simply the phenomenon that some people are cognitively lopsided in favor of either mathematical or verbal reasoning and thus their real-life pursuits mirror their cognitive profile. In particular, understanding the importance of the math/verbal split can illuminate potential differences between East Asians and Europeans or more generally between East Asians and non-East Asians, differences which I’m surprised are often not well noted even by supposed devotees of human biodiversity.

Smart East Asians

East Asians, those of Chinese, Korean, or Japanese descent, are often stereotyped as being smart by American society. They excel academically relative to members of other ethnic groups in the United States and disproportionately dominate real life STEM, whether at elite companies in Silicon Valley or in top science labs around the country. A 1987 Times article discussed the disproportionate success of East Asian immigrants, in particular in math and science, and suggested that this was because “Asian-American students who began their educations abroad arrived in the U.S. with a solid grounding in math but little or no knowledge of English. They are also influenced by the promise of a good job after college. “Asians feel there will be less discrimination in areas like math and science because they will be judged more objectively,” says Shirley Hune, an education professor at Hunter College. And, she notes, the return on the investment in education “is more immediate in something like engineering than with a liberal arts degree.” [1]http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,3...0.html Proponents of HBD will surely point to IQ as the ultimate underlying explanation rather than culture or other such factors. They’re mostly right, but I want to emphasize that East Asians are fundamentally characterized by what I refer to as the math/verbal split. People often casually note the affinity that East Asians have for math, without necessarily taking that understanding to its logical conclusion.

That East Asians skew towards math and away from verbal has long been documented in the psychometric literature. In their infamous book the Bell Curve, Charles Murray and Richard Hernstein note that East Asians tended to be much stronger at non-verbal as opposed to verbal reasoning. One study by Vernon that they reference suggests that Chinese Americans had an average performance IQ of 110 and an average verbal IQ of 97. [2]Murray, C & Hernstein, R. J. (1996). The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. 300-301. This was based on testing done in 1975 on Chinese children in San Francisco’s Chinatown using the Lorge-Thorndike Intelligence Test. [3]Flynn, J. R. (2007). What is Intelligence? Beyond the Flynn Effect. 116. Various other scholars such as Richard Lynn have also consistently noted that East Asians exhibit a pronounced math/verbal skew. Lynn proposes that Mongoloid intelligence is fundamentally characterized by “high general intelligence (Spearman’s g), high visuospatial abilities and low verbal abilities.” [4]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/01...901358 Thus, relative to Europeans, East Asians tend to average lower on verbal intelligence but excel significantly at quantitative and spatial reasoning.

Murray suggests that this math/verbal split explains why East Asians are underrepresented in the social sciences, humanities, and law and skewed towards science and engineering fields. [2]Murray, C & Hernstein, R. J. (1996). The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. 300-301. As I’ll argue later on, the skewed cognitive profile of East Asians not only explains why they avoid the non-sciences, but also why even within natural science, East Asians exhibit a clear preference for the quantitative physical sciences over the verbally loaded life sciences. The math/verbal split also illuminates East Asian performance in elite academic competitions in the US. For instance, East Asians are heavily overrepresented in math competitions such as MATHCOUNTS or AIME/USAMO/IMO, but have a relatively minimal presence in the Spelling Bee, which as of late has been dominated by verbally fluent South Asians.

A back of the envelop estimation based on surnames suggests that somewhere around 64% to 65% of 2016 USAMO qualifiers were East Asian. [5]https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/USAMO%20Qual..._0.pdf By contrast, since 1980 only one person with an East Asian name has won the Spelling Bee, while the last 10 winners or co-winners all are South Asian. [6]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scripps_Nation...mpions Similarly, an analysis of the names and pictures of the 291 Spelling Bee finalists from 2017 who made it to Washington DC suggests that conservatively estimating, there were about 25 or so full-blooded East Asians, a ratio of only about 8.6%. [7]http://spellingbee.com/meet-the-spellers/2017 (Some of the East Asian surnames were actually Vietnamese, a group which I’ve currently excluded from my definition of East Asian.)

Further evidence in support of the thesis that East Asians are cognitively skewed towards mathematical reasoning comes from Asian American scores on standardized tests. Although the data is over decade old, blogger Steve Sailer highlights performance by race on major standardized tests such as the GMAT, GRE, MCAT, and LSAT. [8]http://www.unz.com/isteve/scores-by-race-on-lsat-gr...d-dat/

Standardized test scores by race from Steve Sailer

Standardized test scores by race from Steve Sailer

One obvious fact is immediately apparent. Asian Americans perform significantly better on tests of mathematical rather than verbal reasoning. While they lagged whites on highly verbally loaded tests such as the MCAT Verbal, they excelled relative to whites on quantitative tests such as the GRE Math. Indeed, despite repeated complaints from white Americans that East Asians are gaming the system and artificially inflating their test scores, the fact that East Asian performance on standardized testing reflects the same math/verbal split as has been indicated by the psychometric literature suggests that in actuality these tests yield precisely the kind of results one might expect.

Science operates in part upon the principle of consilience. When various independent sources of evidence all converge upon the same underlying fact, this suggests that the data being considered makes sense in the context of a wider coherent theory. It makes less plausible the idea that somehow Asian American standardized test scores are the result of intense prep or cheating and therefore an anomaly in need of some refuting explanation. Contrary to Asian American test scores being anomalous, they in fact reveal the same thing that IQ testing has been telling us for years. On verbally loaded tests, East Asians on average score lower compared to whites. The main difference is that they tend to be significantly better on tests of quantitative aptitude. (This is to say nothing of the vast body of empirical literature suggesting that relatively g-loaded tests such as the SATs are not significantly amenable to extensive prep anyway, although some certainly seem convinced that Tiger Mothers had somehow found a way to crack all of that or something, possibly through magic dirt. As Steve Hsu points out, “even a casual investigation into this topic reveals that, at least on average, SAT scores are not easily improved, even through extensive effort.” [39]http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/02/test-preparati...s.html)

Lopsided Geniuses and Spearman’s Law of Diminishing Returns

The importance of the math/verbal split becomes clear when we read about historical lopsided geniuses. Numerous such examples abound. I want to focus on two in particular, Richard Feynman and Terence Tao, to illustrate the point that brilliant people aren’t necessarily equally brilliant in all aspects of life. Sure, general intelligence or g suggests that they’re likely to be above average in most if not all areas of cognitive ability, but I believe this misses the point.

The late Richard Feynman, a lopsided genius
The late Richard Feynman, a lopsided genius

Richard Feynman is legendary not only for his contributions as a theoretical physicist but also for his supposedly modest IQ of 125. [9]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Education (I suppose as well for his generally good sense of humor and zany love of life, and if one believes the apocryphal stories, for a rather brutal physics beatdown laid upon our good host himself, Ron Unz.) [44]http://web.cos.gmu.edu/~vkunkel/feynman1.html This was supposed to be a critical data point refuting the general utility of IQ testing as a useful predicator of real life accomplishment. If even an intellectual giant like Feynman tested at a modest IQ of only around 125, how useful could IQ testing actually be, the argument went?

In actuality, Feynman exhibited a clear math/verbal split and the modest IQ score of 125 often reported may simply have been the result of the test being verbally loaded. For instance, Wikipedia notes that “in 1939, Feynman received a bachelor’s degree and was named a Putnam Fellow. He attained a perfect score on the graduate school entrance exams to Princeton University in physics, an unprecedented feat, and an outstanding score in mathematics, but did poorly on the history and English portions.” [9]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Education Likewise physicist Steve Hsu doubts that“Feynman would have scored near the ceiling on many verbally loaded tests. He often made grammatical mistakes, spelling mistakes (even of words commonly used in physics), etc. He occasionally did not know the meanings of terms used by other people around him (even words commonly used in physics).” [10]http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/09/feynman-schwin...s.html

Terence Tao, another lopsided prodigy
Terence Tao, another lopsided prodigy

Another prodigy Terence Tao, one of the most preeminent mathematicians today, also mirrored Feynman in exhibiting a pronounced cognitive skew. As noted by those who studied him during his youth, “there’s no doubt that Terry Tao reasons almost incredibly well, mathematically, and learns mathematics and related subjects astonishingly fast. His performance in mathematics competitions in Australia and on the mathematical portion of the College Board Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT-M) at age 8 is phenomenal. He was taking the 60-item 60-minute multiple-choice SAT-M for the first time. On it, only 1 percent of college-bound male 12th-graders in the United States score 750 or more (College Board, 1985). He scored 760. Only one other 8-year-old of whom I am aware has done as well. That boy, who lives in a suburb of Chicago, was taking the test for the fifth time! He managed to score 800 before becoming 10 years old. Terry was not retested on SAT-M at age 9, because that seemed unnecessary.Yet at age 8 years 10 months, when he took both the SAT-M and the SAT-Verbal, Terry scored only 290 on the latter. Just 9% of college-bound male 12th-graders score 290 or less on SAT-V; a chance score is about 230. The discrepancy between being 10 points above the minimum 99th percentile on M and at the 9th percentile on V represents a gap of about 3.7 standard deviations. Clearly, Terry did far better with the mathematical reasoning items (please see the Appendix for examples) than he did reading paragraphs and answering comprehension questions about them or figuring out antonyms, verbal analogies, or sentences with missing words.” [11]http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry...A10116

A 2007 New York Times article also notes of Tao that “at age 5, he was enrolled in a public school, and his parents, administrators and teachers set up an individualized program for him. He proceeded through each subject at his own pace, quickly accelerating through several grades in math and science while remaining closer to his age group in other subjects. In English classes, for instance, he became flustered when he had to write essays. “I never really got the hang of that,” he said. “These very vague, undefined questions. I always liked situations where there were very clear rules of what to do.” Assigned to write a story about what was going on at home, Terry went from room to room and made detailed lists of the contents.” [12]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/science/13prof.html

As suggested above, most likely Tao and Feynman both skewed significantly away from verbal in favor of spatial/quantitative ability. Geniuses can certainly be lopsided in their cognitive profile and are not necessarily equally gifted at everything. Indeed, a failure to appreciate this fact probably resulted in one of psychometrics’ greatest false negatives. Around 1920, psychologist Lewis Terman famously attempted to search for bright youths in the state of California by administering to them IQ tests. Those who scored in the top 1% were tracked for further longitudinal study. Despite being future Nobel Prize winners in physics, both William Shockley and Luis Alvarez failed to make the initial cut. [13]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recognizi...intel/ Like Feynman’s infamous IQ score of only 125, this was once again held up as evidence of the limitations of intelligence testing. How could Terman have failed to identify these two budding prodigies?

William Shockley and Luis Alvarez. Both famously failed to make the initial cut on Terman’s IQ testing.
William Shockley and Luis Alvarez. Both famously failed to make the initial cut on Terman’s IQ testing.

Although this skepticism is superficially plausible, a more convincing explanation is offered by psychologists David Lubinski and Camilla Benbow, who argue that “many items on Terman’s Stanford-Binet IQ test, as with many modern assessments, fail to tap into a cognitive ability known as spatial ability. Recent research on cognitive abilities is reinforcing what some psychologists suggested decades ago: spatial ability, also known as spatial visualization, plays a critical role in engineering and scientific disciplines. Yet more verbally-loaded IQ tests, as well as many popular standardized tests used today, do not adequately measure this trait, especially in those who are most gifted with it.” [13]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recognizi...intel/ Had Alvarez or Shockley been administered a spatially or quantitatively oriented test of aptitude, it’s hard to imagine that either one of them would’ve failed to make Terman’s cut. This anomaly was simply the result of the intelligence community failing to adequately appreciate the math/verbal split.

None of this of course implies that notions of aggregate IQ or general intelligence aren’t meaningful concepts. Rather, I suspect that overall IQ is more useful for analyzing the greater population at large, while math/verbal split is more useful for understanding the performance of individuals at the right tail of the cognitive distribution. As has been argued by psychologists like Linda Gottfredson, the usefulness of general intelligence lies in the fact that “half a century of military and civilian research has converged to draw a portrait of occupational opportunity along the IQ continuum. Individuals in the top 5 percent of the adult IQ distribution (above IQ 125) can essentially train themselves, and few occupations are beyond their reach mentally. Persons of average IQ (between 90 and 110) are not competitive for most professional and executive-level work but are easily trained for the bulk of jobs in the American economy. In contrast, adults in the bottom 5 percent of the IQ distribution (below 75) are very difficult to train and are not competitive for any occupation on the basis of ability.” [14]https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1998...or.pdf

From , illustrating how outcomes in life are correlated with IQ.
From [14]https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1998...or.pdf, illustrating how outcomes in life are correlated with IQ.

When it comes to analysis of tail end talent though, I argue that most likely specific cognitive subfactors play a more important role. Indeed, Spearman’s law of diminish returns suggests that “the proportion of variation accounted for by g may not be uniform across all subgroups within a population. Spearman’s law of diminishing returns (SLODR), also termed the cognitive ability differentiation hypothesis, predicts that the positive correlations among different cognitive abilities are weaker among more intelligent subgroups of individuals. More specifically, SLODR predicts that the g factor will account for a smaller proportion of individual differences in cognitive test scores at higher scores on the g factor.” [15]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometric...eturns

Commenter Gwen on the blog Infoproc hints at a possible neurological basis for this phenomenon, stating that “one bit of speculation I have: the neuroimaging studies seem to consistently point towards efficiency of global connectivity rather than efficiency or other traits of individual regions; you could interpret this as a general factor across a wide battery of tasks because they are all hindered to a greater or lesser degree by simply difficulties in coordination while performing the task; so perhaps what causes Spearman is global connectivity becoming around as efficient as possible and no longer a bottleneck for most tasks, and instead individual brain regions start dominating additional performance improvements. So up to a certain level of global communication efficiency, there is a general intelligence factor but then specific abilities like spatial vs verbal come apart and cease to have common bottlenecks and brain tilts manifest themselves much more clearly.” [10]http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/09/feynman-schwin...s.html This certainly seem plausible enough. Let’s hope that those far smarter than ourselves will slowly get to the bottom of these matters over the coming decades.

In conclusion, the point I want to make here should be clear. Many people have fairly lopsided cognitive profiles. History provides us with illuminating examples of intellectual giants who were cognitively lopsided. Being a genius in one area doesn’t necessarily imply that you’re equally ingenious in all other areas. SLODR suggests that general intelligence is less relevant in explaining total cognitive variation the smarter the subgroup under consideration is. While g may be useful for aggregate broad stroke analyses of the larger population along the lines of the studies referenced by Linda Gottfredson, elite performance is probably more dependent upon specific cognitive subfactors. Indeed, ignoring the math/verbal split probably led to one of the most infamous false negatives in the field of psychometrics, when Lewis Terman failed to flag either Alvarez or Shockley as cognitively elite youths.

Having discussed the importance of the math/verbal split in understanding the trajectories of historical prodigies, let’s now turn to the topic of how this phenomenon can illuminate in general the trajectory of a rising modern day East Asia.

China’s Rapid Scientific Rise and East Asian Science

One of the most interesting phenomenon of the 21st century has been China’s rapid rise in science and technology. After the turmoil of the Cultural Revolution, China has been making rapid investments in S&T for the past few decades. It was estimated that during 2017, China had spent roughly $279 billion USD on R&D, an increase of 14% over the prior year and the culmination of a couple decades of rapid R&D growth from an extremely low starting base. [16]https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/26/china-spent-an-estim...r.html

However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science. As noted by Australian academic Simon Marginson, “in 2000 China authored just 0.6 percent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one percent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3% of the leading one percent of papers, half as many as the US- an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing- where China publishes more top one percent papers than the US- and mathematics (NSF, 2014.) China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and to some degree Singapore, have concentrated research development in the physical sciences and related applied fields like engineering, computing and materials. In Korea and Japan this supports advanced manufacturing. China also emphasizes research that supports accelerated modernization: energy, urbanization, construction, transport, and communications. At this stage medicine and life sciences are much weaker.” [17]http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publica...p9.pdf

Similarly, in 2014 Nature noted that a whopping 90% of China’s WFC came from the fields of physical sciences and chemistry, as opposed to life sciences. [18]https://www.nature.com/articles/515S73a China’s most recent output in 2017 in Nature essentially exhibits the same skew. [46]https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/china This contrasts with the scientific output of countries such as the United States or the UK, which tend to gravitate towards life sciences and medicine. For instance, UNESCO reported in 2010 that while Japan had strengths in physics, chemistry, engineering and technology, the United States and the United Kingdom tended to specialize in biomedical research and clinical medicine. [19]Unesco (2010). UNESCO Science Report 2010: The Current Status of Science Around the World. 12.

From , China’s output in Nature is clearly skewed towards physical sciences and chemistry and away from life sciences.
From [46]https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/china, China’s output in Nature is clearly skewed towards physical sciences and chemistry and away from life sciences.

Further evidence supporting the claim that East Asian countries clearly skew towards quantitative fields in their scientific output lies in the Leiden Ranking, which utilizes bibliographic data from the Web of Science produced by Clarivate Analytics to determine which institutions published the most high-impact papers in various fields. [20]http://www.leidenranking.com/ranking/2017/list Leiden categorizes papers into five broad areas, biomedical and health sciences, life and earth sciences, mathematics and computer science, physical sciences and engineering, and social sciences and humanities.

Based on the number of papers in the top 10% of citations, East Asian universities clearly excel at mathematics and computer science and physical sciences and engineering relative to the other three categories. For the time period of 2012-2015 and ranked by total number of top 10% papers based on citation rate, East Asia had 5 of the top 10 universities in physical sciences and engineering and 8 out of the top 10 universities in mathematics and computer science.

Top schools based on number of top 10% papers for the field of mathematics and computer science for 2012-2015 in Leiden.
Top schools based on number of top 10% papers for the field of mathematics and computer science for 2012-2015 in Leiden.
Top schools based on number of top 10% papers for the field of physical sciences and engineering for 2012-2015 in Leiden.
Top schools based on number of top 10% papers for the field of physical sciences and engineering for 2012-2015 in Leiden.

By contrast when looking at total top 10% papers in the field of biomedical and health sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Shanghai Jiao Tong at 48th. For life and earth sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Zhejiang at 20th. And in social sciences and humanities, the top rated East Asian university was National University of Singapore at a fairly low 80th place. [20]http://www.leidenranking.com/ranking/2017/list The difference in high impact work produced between quantitative and verbal fields for East Asian universities could hardly be clearer. Conversely, Western countries tended to excel at life sciences, medicine, social sciences, and humanities. This is further reinforced by the performance of the UK on the latest QS World University Rankings by Subject, which as noted was “heavily concentrated in Arts & Humanities subjects, the Life Sciences, and Social Sciences and Management.” [43]http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?stor...510534

A couple of caveats apply. First, compared to the rest East Asia, Japan publishes more high impact work in the life sciences. It has pockets of strength in various areas of the biological sciences ranging from immunology to cell biology to regenerative medicine, as anyone familiar with names such as Yoshinori Ohsumi, Kazutoshi Mori, Shimon Sakaguchi, Tasuku Honjo, or Tadamitsu Kishimoto can attest. Most famously, Shinya Yamanaka invented iPS cells back in 2006, giving birth to a whole new field of regenerative medicine in which Japan has established itself as a world leader. [21]https://www.ft.com/content/254853b2-8f23-11e7-9084-d...42ba93

Shinya Yamanaka, the scientist who first created induced pluripotent stem cells in 2006.
Shinya Yamanaka, the scientist who first created induced pluripotent stem cells in 2006.

China on the other hand publishes more high impact work in mathematics and computer science compared to Japan or Korea. For instance, US News Global most recently ranked Tsinghua University as the number one computer science program in the world. [22]https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-univers...cience Apart from that though, in general all East Asian countries tend to prefer fields such as physics, chemistry, materials science, and engineering.

My main prediction here then is that based on HBD, I don’t expect China or East Asia to rival the Anglosphere in the life sciences and medicine or other verbally loaded scientific fields. Perhaps China can mirror Japan in developing pockets of strengths in various areas of the life sciences. Given its significantly larger population, this might indeed translate into non-trivial high-end output in the fields of biology and biomedicine. The core strengths of East Asian countries though, as science in the region matures, will lie primarily in quantitative areas such as physics or chemistry, and this is where I predict the region will shine in the coming years. China’s recent forays into quantum cryptography provide one such example. [40]https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610106/chinese-sa...nents/

Thus, while some point to overall scientific output across a full spectrum of fields in the physical sciences, life sciences, and social sciences as proof that East Asians aren’t as well represented as they should be, a more nuanced understanding suggests that in actuality East Asians are merely gravitating towards what they’re naturally good at. That countries like China and Japan excel at fields like physics or chemistry relative to say psychology or clinical medicine and disproportionately publish in the former as opposed to the latter is hardly a mystery. It’s merely a reflection of underlying HBD.

Beyond Science: Technology and Engineering

East Asia also clearly excels in technology and engineering. East Asian countries are international patenting powerhouses and in case you hadn’t noticed, virtually every bit of advanced modern-day consumer electronics hardware is manufactured in East Asia. This is a point often ignored in HBD related discussions.

The Financial Times notes that “Japan remains an innovation powerhouse, according to a geographical analysis of patenting that shows Tokyo-Yokohama is much the largest such cluster in world. The study comes from the World Intellectual Property Organization (Wipo), based in Geneva, which analyzed the addresses of inventors named in all 950,000 international patent applications published between 2011 and 2015 under the Patent Cooperation Treaty. Two other Japanese clusters, Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto and Nagoya, are in the global top ten. The results also show strong inventive activity elsewhere in east Asia, with China’s Shenzhen-Hong Kong taking second place in Wipo’s rankings, ahead of California’s Silicon Valley in third and Seoul in South Korea. European clusters appear lower down the rankings, with Paris at number 10 and Frankfurt-Mannheim at 12. The UK does poorly, with London at 21, Cambridge at 55 and Oxford at 88.” [23]https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-2...e998b2

In fact, as anyone who’s been paying attention has noticed, modern day tech is essentially a California and East Asian affair, with the former focused on software and the latter more so on hardware. American companies dominate in the realm of internet infrastructure and platforms, while East Asia is predominant in consumer electronics hardware, although as noted, China does have its own versions of general purpose tech giants in companies like Baidu, Alibaba, and Tencent. By contrast, Europe today has relatively few well known tech companies apart from some successful apps such as Spotify or Skype and entities such as Nokia or Ericsson. [24]http://www.unz.com/akarlin/europe-cant-into-big-tech/ It used to have more established technology companies back in the day, but the onslaught of competition from the US and East Asia put a huge dent in Europe’s technology industry.

An old 1991 article from the Washington Post during the height of Japan bashing in the West notes that “the “Nippophobia” phenomenon has gathered momentum largely because there appear to be no easy answers to prevent the likelihood that European unemployment, already much higher than in the United States, is about to increase, or that if protectionist measures are invoked to save jobs, prices will have to soar and thus hurt the European consumer. Europe’s computer industries are on the verge of collapse because they cannot compete with Japanese and American companies that adapt more quickly to swiftly changing technologies. The Netherlands’ electronics giant Philips, Italy’s Olivetti and France’s Bull have been forced to slash thousands of people from their employment rolls this year. Even with more billion-dollar bailouts from governments, their survival prospects are bleak.” [25]https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991...japan- bashing/0b9b1f7b-e578-4aae-926b-e2bdd6809f68/

Indeed, the association of East Asia with high tech is fairly evident when one considers the most well-known brands in each global region. A large share of the most famous East Asian brands are tech companies. By comparison, well-known European brands generally tend to be luxury fashion or car companies. [26]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/app...1.html Quick, name the most prominent East Asian companies that come to mind. My guess is that you probably threw out names like Samsung, LG, Toshiba, Panasonic, Sony, Lenovo, BYD, DJI, or Huawei. Now, name the most famous European brands you can think of. Here, my guess is that you probably first thought of brands like Gucci, Burberry, Versace, Louis Vuitton, Hermes, Armani, Chanel, or Prada.

From  BrandZ data shows that top Chinese brands generally tend to be tech related
From [47]http://www.wpp.com/wpp/marketing/brandz/china-50-2018/ BrandZ data shows that top Chinese brands generally tend to be tech related
From , BrandZ data shows that France lives up to its reputation as a world capital in luxury fashion
From [48]http://www.millwardbrown.com/brandz/top-french-bran...s/2018, BrandZ data shows that France lives up to its reputation as a world capital in luxury fashion

Although many will point to institutional factors such as China or the United States enjoying large, unfragmented markets to explain the decline of European tech, I actually want to offer a more HBD oriented explanation not only for why Europe seems to lag in technology and engineering relative to America and East Asia, but also for why tech in the United States is skewed towards software, while tech in East Asia is skewed towards hardware. I believe that the various phenomenon described above can all be explained by one common underlying mechanism, namely the math/verbal split. Simply put, if you’re really good at math, you gravitate towards hardware. If your skills are more verbally inclined, you gravitate towards software. In general, your chances of working in engineering and technology are greatly bolstered by being spatially and quantitatively adept.

Thus, HBD ultimately explains where a non-trivial percentage of East Asian cognitive capital is allocated to. Besides being skewed towards the mathematical and physical sciences, many East Asians end up working in practical technology and engineering. This means that merely considering science and in particular the full range of scientific fields, misses out on the fact that many East Asians gravitate towards the middle two letters of the STEM acronym. Having pointed out that modern day consumer electronics is essentially an East Asian industry, I also want to highlight the obvious fact that East Asian Americans are vastly overrepresented in the tech industry in Silicon Valley and have made many important contributions there as well. One good example is modern day computer graphics, which is basically dominated by Nvidia and AMD, which bought ATI Technologies back in 2006 and incorporated it into its own graphics division. Jen Hsun-Huang was one of the co-founders of Nvidia and today remains its CEO and primary spokesperson. ATI Technologies, which would later become the Radeon graphics division of AMD, was founded by four Chinese Canadians, Lee Ka Lau, Francis Lau, Benny Lau, and Kwok Yuen Ho, back in 1985 in Ontario, Canada. [28]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Technologies#History East Asian Americans are also undoubtedly over-represented among the technical workforce at prominent tech companies such as Nvidia or the likes. [31]http://www.nvidia.com/object/fy15-workforce-perform...e.html

Indeed, despite oft repeated claims by progressives that Silicon Valley is so, so white, at many of the elite tech companies in the Bay Area, whites are actually under-represented along with blacks and Hispanics. The general picture from diversity numbers released by many of the top companies such as Google, Facebook, or Uber shows that whites tend to be slightly underrepresented overall, more underrepresented in technical roles, and overrepresented at the executive level relative to their total percentage amongst the general population. [27]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspirac...white/ [45]https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/03/28/...26318/ This seems to jive with my own personal impressions as well from having worked in the tech sector the past number of years. In general, the more technically and quantitatively demanding the role, the greater the degree of Asian American overrepresentation. It’s not a huge surprise that the whitest parts of most tech companies tend to be in areas such as marketing, product, sales, design, or at the executive levels.

From USA Today. Breakout of employees by race in technical roles at Uber
From USA Today. Breakout of employees by race in technical roles at Uber

Let’s take a moment then to appreciate the role that East Asians and East Asian Americans play in modern day tech and engineering. Just think of all of the accoutrements of modernity such as smartphones, flat panel TVs, tablets, and SSDs that we purchase from East Asian companies like Samsung, Sony, or LG that have become part and parcel of our 21st century lifestyle. It’s good stuff, so keep that shit coming and let’s bring on those bendable OLED screens! [29]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxnv_QKxXf0 (Before anyone makes the usual arguments, let me point out that the father of the OLED is typically considered to be a Chinese American Ching-Tang, who did his work while at Eastman Kodak in the 1980s. It would hardly be surprising given his various accolades if a Nobel Prize in chemistry was also in the offing. [30]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_W._Tang#Biography)

Ching Tang, considered to be the father of the OLED
Ching Tang, considered to be the father of the OLED

Conclusion

I hope I’ve convinced you that the correct way of thinking about HBD is fundamentally along the lines of the math/verbal split more so than along the lines of overall IQ or g, not that those concepts don’t have their relevant areas of use. Once math/verbal split is taken into account, I believe certain things become less mysterious, so to speak. Of course, this isn’t to say that proponents of HBD have never discussed the math/verbal split before. For instance, blogger Steve Sailer once noted that major race differences tended to mirror sex differences and that in particular the Japanese possessed cognitively masculine skills such as excelling at mathematics and the 3-D rotation of objects, which contributed to their technological and manufacturing prowess on the world stage. [32]https://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/04/rev-wright-on-bl...e.html. Very rarely though have I seen this understanding taken to its logical conclusion, with all of its attendant empirical predictions. I hope that this article is a step in that direction.

If my assertions here are correct, I predict that over the coming decades, we’ll increasingly see different groups of people specialize in areas where they’re most proficient at. This means that East Asians and East Asian societies will be characterized by a skew towards quantitative STEM fields such as physics, chemistry, and engineering and towards hardware and high-tech manufacturing, while Western societies will be characterized by a skew towards the biological sciences and medicine, social sciences, humanities, and software and services. [41]https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/...d-land Likewise, India also appears to be a country whose strengths lie more in software and services as opposed to hardware and manufacturing. My fundamental thesis is that all of this is ultimately a reflection of underlying HBD, in particular the math/verbal split. I believe this is the crucial insight lacking in the analyses others offer.

So maybe it’s less that East Asians are significantly smarter than other ethnic groups and more that they’re significantly more quantitatively inclined. Being good at math is only one kind of intelligence, so to speak. A philosopher like Daniel Dennett may be no Terence Tao, but based on anecdotal evidence of Tao’s somewhat modest verbal abilities relative to his preeminent mathematical talents, it’s safe to say that neither is Tao Dennett. Rather, they’re two men with differing cognitive profiles and different strengths and weaknesses. Ultimately each pursued a career most suited to his innate talents. One became a philosopher and the other a mathematician. Like they say, to each his own.

In light of all this then, why does American society consistently characterize East Asians as exceptionally intelligent rather than adopt perhaps a more nuanced perspective? It probably has to do with the enormous prestige that mathematical aptitude commands. Even if one isn’t good at much else, as long as you’re good at math, people usually still associate you with brilliance. We often hear jokes about how math and science are the real subjects compared to the social sciences or humanities. And even within the natural sciences, it’s often assumed that physics is a more preeminent and senior science relative to say biology. This implicit intellectual hierarchy was more explicitly stated in Jerome Kagan’s book The Three Cultures, where he described physics as the sun and mathematics its core, with various other lesser subjects as planets increasingly distant from and in orbit around the sun. [33]Kagan, J. (2009). The Three Cultures: Natural Sciences, Social Sciences and the Humanities in the 21st century. Indeed, apart from the obvious utility of the life sciences, many other fields relying mostly upon verbal aptitude often seem to deliver questionable value, while math seems to be almost universally useful. In particular, modern day psychology, social sciences, and humanities often seem to be beset by ideological biases and suffer from a clear lack of replicability. [34]https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/...72272/ Social science might better be described these days as social justice, as so-called scientists often merely reinforce their ideological priors and preach politically correct, sanctimonious bullshit. Ideology masquerading as science, alas.

In contrast, mathematics is beautiful, elegant, and seemingly the language of the universe. An intelligent extraterrestrial species will almost certainly not read or write English or any of the current extant languages of planet Earth. But it almost certainly will possess many of the same fundamental mathematical concepts that we homo-sapiens possess. It’s hard to see how it could otherwise be. As physicist Steve Hsu opines, “high verbal ability is useful for appearing to be smart, or for winning arguments and impressing other people, but it’s really high math ability that is useful for discovering things about the world- that is, discovering truth or reasoning rigorously.” [35]http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2011/06/high-v-low-m.html Indeed, there’s much to the idea that deep mathematical understanding unlocks a realm of knowledge beyond what can merely be articulated through verbal concepts alone. In reference to physicist Eugene Wigner’s remarks about the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, physicist Steven Weinberg wrote about the equally unreasonable ineffectiveness of philosophy in his book Dreams of a Final Theory, suggesting that no physicists he knew of in the post-WW2 era meaningfully benefitted in their work from philosophy in any way. [36]http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Stev...9D.pdf

It truly is remarkable then how mathematics not only helps us to unlock a deep understanding of nature, but also allows us to become nature’s master as well. Blogger Lion of the Blogosphere, aka The Artist Formerly Known as Half Sigma, puts it thusly. Mathematical ability is highly conducive to value creation, while verbal ability is highly conducive to value transference. [37]http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2011/07/ste...s.html Mathematically adept nerds are the real value creators, while their more extroverted, socially dominant, and verbally glib counterparts transfer that underlying value to themselves as business executives. Engineers are great at creating things for value for others to consume. Lawyers and businessmen on the other hand seem mostly proficient at extracting wealth created by others for themselves.

Perhaps not surprisingly then, while modern day Japan is a high-tech engineering powerhouse exporting tangible things of value that others around the world want to buy, the field of law seems to be rather a bit of a dud in the country, with lawyers literally running out of things to do. [38]http://www.unz.com/isteve/wsj-japans-lawyers-need-m...tcies/ And perhaps equally unsurprisingly, the American economy was nearly wrecked by bankers and snake oil salesmen a decade ago, and in general the country seems to be run by a coterie of lawyers and TV stars, while in contrast Chinese leaders seem to disproportionately possess engineering degrees instead. [42]https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Chinese-political-leade...egrees

In America, despite the enormous prestige that mathematics commands, there also seems to be a concurrent underlying math phobia. This strange love/hate relationship Americans have with math means that often those most lacking in mathematical acumen somehow convince themselves that being smart is merely a function of how loudly you shout over someone else or how articulate you are at voicing your own opinions. (Just look at all of the talking heads on opinion television today pontificating endlessly from their bully pulpits, if you don’t believe what I’m saying is true.) We often hear this expressed as clichés about how Americans are taught to embrace critical thinking. In contrast, motivated by HBD, I’ve long been espousing a philosophy that I’ve somewhat cheekily referred to as cognitive elitism. Perhaps though it’s better to refer to that ideology as quantitative supremacism instead. (Contrast cognitive elitism on the one hand with the philosophical worldview of well-known HBD commenter Whiskey on the other, whose passion for pointing out how much white women hate, hate, hate beta males and instead prefer tall, dark, and handsome men of color might instead be aptly referred to as cock-nitive elitism.)

Intelligence matters for the functioning of a modern-day STEM society and it matters quite a bit. The paradox of egalitarianism implies that as environments increasingly become equalized among disparate parts of the population, by definition a greater percentage of the remaining variance in life outcomes must be attributed to differences in innate intelligence instead. And as phenomenon like the math/verbal split or the asymmetry in usefulness between mathematical and verbal aptitude suggest, maybe we should appreciate and revere precisely those individuals and groups most adept at quantitative reasoning, who rather than merely engaging in cheap talk and empty braggadocio, quietly crank away behind the scenes, tirelessly powering the scientific and technological engine of modernity. So, shout it out loud with me my brothers and sisters. Shout it aloud from every street corner and mountain top, with the same relentless vigor and tenacity shown by our good friend John Derbyshire when it comes to tirelessly warning us about the perils of certain solar ethnic groups. Math is good. Math is useful. Math is sublime. Amen. We are all quantitative supremacists now!

And that’s the story. Human biodiversity simply means that different groups of people who evolved under differing conditions may possess different distributions of physical and cognitive attributes. Appreciating such nuances may prove to be best for understanding the future of the 21st century. I’m amazed by how often people far smarter than myself still discuss HBD solely in terms of overall IQ. The existence of the math/verbal split among East Asians has well been documented by scholars like Richard Lynn or Charles Murray for decades and yet in public discussions of intelligence, people invariably tend to fall back upon the usual talking points. Your humble correspondent hopes that by more forcefully articulating the established science of psychometrics, conceptual muddles can be dissolved and men and women alike awoken from their dogmatic slumbers, thereby allowing for what might ever so humbly be termed a Copernican revolution to blossom in our public understanding of intelligence and HBD.

References

[1] http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,965326-2,00.html

[2] Murray, C & Hernstein, R. J. (1996). The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. 300-301.

[3] Flynn, J. R. (2007). What is Intelligence? Beyond the Flynn Effect. 116.

[4] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0191886987901358

[5] https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/USAMO%20Qualifiers%202016_0.pdf

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scripps_National_Spelling_Bee_champions

[7] http://spellingbee.com/meet-the-spellers/2017

[8] http://www.unz.com/isteve/scores-by-race-on-lsat-gre-mcat-gmat-and-dat/

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Education

[10] http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/09/feynman-schwinger-and-psychometrics.html

[11] http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10116

[12] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/science/13prof.html

[13] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recognizing-spatial-intel/

[14] https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1998generalintelligencefactor.pdf

[15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)#Spearman’s_law_of_diminishing_returns

[16] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/26/china-spent-an-estimated-279-billion-on-rd-last-year.html

[17] http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp9.pdf

[18] https://www.nature.com/articles/515S73a

[19] Unesco (2010). UNESCO Science Report 2010: The Current Status of Science Around the World. 12.

[20] http://www.leidenranking.com/ranking/2017/list

[21] https://www.ft.com/content/254853b2-8f23-11e7-9084-d0c17942ba93

[22] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/computer-science

[23] https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

[24] http://www.unz.com/akarlin/europe-cant-into-big-tech/

[25] https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991/06/16/europes-new-rage-japan- bashing/0b9b1f7b-e578-4aae-926b-e2bdd6809f68/

[26] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/apple-most-valuable-brand-iphone-7-google-coca-cola-a7345501.html

[27] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/29/how-the-asians-became-white/

[28] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Technologies#History

[29] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxnv_QKxXf0

[30] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_W._Tang#Biography

[31] http://www.nvidia.com/object/fy15-workforce-performance.html

[32] https://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/04/rev-wright-on-black-white-cognitive.html

[33] Kagan, J. (2009). The Three Cultures: Natural Sciences, Social Sciences and the Humanities in the 21st century.

[34] https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/psychologys-replication-crisis-cant-be-wished-away/472272/

[35] http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2011/06/high-v-low-m.html

[36] http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Steven-Weinberg-%E2%80%9CAgainst-Philosophy%E2%80%9D.pdf

[37] http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2011/07/stem-majors.html

[38] http://www.unz.com/isteve/wsj-japans-lawyers-need-more-crime-and-bankruptcies/

[39] http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/02/test-preparation-and-sat-scores.html

[40] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610106/chinese-satellite-uses-quantum-cryptography-for-secure-video-conference-between-continents/

[41] https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2015/may/18/as-the-uk-has-discovered-there-is-no-postindustrial-promised-land

[42] https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Chinese-political-leaders-have-engineering-degrees-whereas-their-American-counterparts-have-law-degrees

[43] http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20180228175510534

[44] http://web.cos.gmu.edu/~vkunkel/feynman1.html

[45] https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/03/28/uber-diversity-reports-shows-familiar-tech-deficiencies/99726318/

[46] https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/china

[47] http://www.wpp.com/wpp/marketing/brandz/china-50-2018/

[48] http://www.millwardbrown.com/brandz/top-french-brands/2018

 
• Category: Science • Tags: East Asians, IQ, Race and Iq 
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  1. Exactly 7500 words? You could have edited it.

    There ya go.

    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
    , @AnotherDad
  2. Yan Shen says:

    Thanks to Ron for uh publishing my work. After years of engaging with various people in these circles, it’s nice to be a published contributor at last!

    A couple of comments. I cribbed this article together over a period of a day and half while working, and consider it to be a first version. I cut out some stuff from this iteration and have some additional material that I’m working on that I estimate will add an additional 50% to this published article.

    Some topics that I didn’t get to the first time around are 1) the parallel between the cognitive profiles of East Asians relative to Europeans and that of men relative to women, 2) how autistics seem to have a cognitive profile similar to that of East Asians and are also correspondingly over-represented in mathematical circles, 3) in general as indicated by SMPY/SVPY, math/verbal tilt has a clear correlation with both educational attainment and occupational status, and 4) fleshing out various parts of my article, including making a clearer argument for what I’ve termed uh “quantitative supremacism”, by explaining not only why math is more useful than verbal, but also why hardware trumps software and why manufacturing trumps services. So maybe later on whether here or somewhere else, version 2.0 of this article will be published as well.

    For now though, enjoy!

  3. JJ says:

    The math and verbal split indeed seems be able to explain a lot of things. But i don’t understand why software is more influenced by verbal instead of math skills? Also, with a huge population that gives chinese doctors and researchers a great advantage in obtaining clinical data, as well as a strong government support, less restricted laws and a more relaxing attitude in religion, i see China has more potential in biomedical and clinical research compared to the US or EU. For example, China currently is said to lead in gene editing in the world despite the fact they got into the game relatively late.

    • Replies: @Zumbuddi
  4. Very interesting and informative article, I for one hope to see more of Yan Shen’s writings published on UR in the future.

    • Agree: Talha, mark green
    • Replies: @Realist
  5. …virtually every bit of advanced modern-day consumer electronics hardware is manufactured in East Asia.

    … because detail-oriented manufacturing labor is cheap there.

    Perhaps this is one of the reasons “why tech in the United States is skewed towards software, while tech in East Asia is skewed towards hardware.”

    Economics and business have helped determine which kinds of talents have grown in East Asia. Intellectual flowers have grown wherever American capital has been showered.

    Maybe someone could, uh, write a long paper about how trade might have skewed development in specific directions.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    , @ThreeCranes
  6. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I didn’t know that Unz Review had a table of contents feature. I’m guessing that Ron developed it for one of his own gargantuan articles. He’s probably thrilled to get to use it here.

  7. Factorize says:

    gwern instead of gwen

  8. Zumbuddi says:

    Lower class / less intelligent Asians don’ t make it to USA.

    High IQ 5th generation (European aka White, non Jewish) American Millenials were subjected to social engineering designed to disfavor them in preference for White Jews and immigrants. Jews who dominate education system designed the Gifted programs in which these students spent their entire K – 12 public schooling.
    Unless their parents were astute enough to get them out of government schools and into Montessori or Home School, these kids are ruined. They are SJWs. You saw them wearing Pussy hats in DC on Jan 21 2017.
    That’s what social engineering elites have done to America’s Best and Brightest White young people.

  9. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Just one question. Will there be a quiz?

    Because I sort of zoned out after the first few thousand words…

    However: if thus sequestering Mr Yan into his own zone on this site will serve to keep him out of the comment threads, I’m all for it.

    • LOL: bomag
  10. Zumbuddi says:
    @JJ

    E Asians are over represented in genomics labs in DC region.

  11. An excellent article and well researched. I agree with many conclusions, however, my first problem is with your statement about SATs not being compromised. In high school my friend wanted to go to West Point. He had 815 on his SATs. This was many years ago, not the SATs of today. He went to a military prep school for a year. He raised his SATs to 1250. He made it to West Point and is now a Colonel.

    In the same class the number one student, a female couldn’t get 800 on the SATs. She just couldn’t take the test and would get so tense she just would be in tears. She had straight A’s in everything but SAT test phobia. She became a doctor.

    One of my fishing buddies is a retired guidance counselor. He takes top notch students and teaches them how to take the SATs and raise their scores. It works for him. A male student two years ahead of me in high school missed only one question on his SATs. He is now in a mental institution.

    The next problem I have is the number of papers published as criterion for excellence. You can publish anything if you have the money. Computer software is publishing fake articles:https://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2014/feb/26/how-computer-generated-fake-papers-flooding-academia. Most of the papers published today are a joke and most of the people writing them don’t understand the statistics they use. Taleb has pointed this out many times.

    You should also check out the number of papers retracted. I believe the Asian countries have some of the highest numbers in science.

    Your idea that because you are great in one area does not mean that you’ll be great or even competent in another discipline is well established in my estimation. Sir Isaac Newton was a brilliant physicist but had a child like understanding of biology and was a closet alchemist. There was a famous chemist who won the Nobel Prize years ago who didn’t understand basic ecology and made a number stupid statements that left people wondering how he got the Nobel Prize (can’t remember his name). I knew a woman who made her living editing and revising books on engineering. She thought engineers were the worse writers in the world.

    Finally, perhaps the worse offenders are those in the humanities and social sciences (these are not sciences; just because you quantify something doesn’t make it better especially if it’s garbage to begin with). You can watch these people on tv, the web and in books trying to write, interpret, and pontificate on stuff they know nothing about. The really sad part is the talking head on the likes of CNN, MSNBC, ABC or any other network who don’t realize that these people are not real scientists and are dead wrong on just about everything they say.

    Overall this is a very good article and I thank you for writing it.

    (I am having problems with editing tonight with the website; it keeps jumping around ; it could be my browser; also last night I got some strange code at the top of the page)

  12. @Yan Shen

    A wonderful article!

    Some remarks-
    Verbally smart people already consider those who understand and apply maths superior to themselves.

    They rely on those who attempt to straddle the two spheres (like you) to translate maths into metaphorical language so that they have a very partial understanding of what it means, which is far better than no understanding.

    They, perhaps arrogantly, consider everything, including the natural world revealed by maths, to be grist to their linguistic mill.

    Minor points: you probably hurriedly ‘cobbled’ rather than ‘cribbed’ your article together.
    ‘Cocknitive’ was good, and probably contains a fair amount of truth, similar to believing that the cause of AIDS is the common or garden cockchafer.

    Regards,
    Diana Melville

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    , @WhiteWolf
  13. … apart from some successful apps such as Spotify or Skype and entities such as Nokia or Ericsson

    Does anyone not notice the geographic profile of the successful European companies? Scandinavians. Can this be explained in terms of skewed IQ?

  14. Dr. Doom says:

    Steve Sailer is a Math Whiz but his occidental views are too far away from the Pacific Rim to get into the details of it. I happen to have had a Youth in Asia and then become immersed in American Culture. I saw both sides and its not inscrutable to me. In the Far East, its not a Tiger Mom, but a serious pressure cooker culture for young males to succeed. They expect you to be the best since Family comes first. Here in the West, its a laid back and lackadaisical attitude. They actually drugged me with Ritalin for pointing out mistakes the low paid schoolmarms made on the chalkboard.
    Men in America are told to slack off. That guy Strickland in Back to the Future is ACTUALLY A VILLAIN for wanting Marty McFly to get to school on time. This joke must fly over the heads of the Far Eastern Audience. Far Eastern kids go to testing coaches. They drill constantly. American men are slacking off, sleeping around and being drugged and STILL DOING WELL ON THESE TESTS.

    DO not underestimate the Genetic Potential of the White Man. They are living in unfavorable conditions and being drugged for not slacking off. The Far Eastern kids are stressing out, getting tutors and even cheating, but not doing that far better than White Men that are being fed anti-academic propaganda and being induced to not be responsible.

  15. @Buzz Mohawk

    …because detail-oriented manufacturing labor is cheap there.

    Nonsense.

    By analysing the detailed value-added turnkey high tech parts along the value chains of the leading electronics brands such as Samsung, Huawei and Apple for instance, you’ll soon realise that it’s by and large an East Asian affair nowadays, and in the forseeable future if you look into where the most cutting-edge technological R&D and breakthroughs are made. Even some “American” contributions here largely contain technologies of East-Asian origin. Probably the only piece of European contribution worth-mentioning in the entire value chain is from Dutch tech giant ASML, which is made possible by several critical German turnkey tech suppliers who are increasingly facing the statue-quo competitions from some deep-pocket East Asian start-ups particularly from China.

  16. Patrick82 says:

    I’ve read that the Chinese turned away from mathematics sometime during the Ming dynasty and that by the 19th century, most learned Chinese were not well versed in the discipline. Many mandarin officials who questioned reformers during the “Self-Strengthening Movement” in the 1860s (in the aftermath of the Opium wars) were skeptical of “Western science”, which by this time of course had surpassed China in all fields save perhaps medicine. Words like “trickery” and “magic” were frequently used by more orthodox literati-scholars whenever the “strange techniques of the barbarians” were discussed.

    It seems to me that the best and brightest in China at that time (if indeed the scholar-officials can be described in those terms) were dedicated to endeavors that required more verbal ability…the eight-legged essays, poetry, history and philosophy.

    I don’t doubt the author’s conclusions, just wanted to throw this out here.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  17. A very good article (although, it could be shorter) & along the lines of what I’ve been thinking all the time.

    Just, I think that author has conflated various types of intelligences, re fields he was writing about. Or perhaps we need imagination or other term & intelligence is not enough?

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, “the same” (I won’t even address the field of experimental physics). History has shown us that most important physicists in past 300 years were not nearly as good in mathematics & vice versa. For example, Einstein, who is one of 3-4 greatest physicists in history, has not possessed comparable mathematical abilities. Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_priority_dispute#General_relativity_3 ) but was realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein’s primacy.

    Feynman in one of the examples in the article. As I recall, he said something like: ” Physics is to mathematics what is sex to masturbation.” Clearly, and this is a position of most physicists- I am a theoretical physicist- we frequently treat our mathematical friends condescendingly.

    2. what about different areas of mathematics? Isn’t it possible, or probable, that different types of intelligences would produce great achievers in number theory, but not in topology? Or take other math areas.

    3. engineering, along with computer science, seems to me altogether different set of fields.

    Be as it may, this is one of rare & I hope fecund articles that will have replaced rather dull idolization of fossilized IQ debate.

    • Replies: @lavoisier
    , @Dmitry
    , @voicum
    , @utu
  18. A great piece, Yan Shen!

    Panda’s 2 cents:

    1, Panda too, has been arguing this spatial/verbal split for a while (lol) , and particularly doubting the rationale why they’re valued at 1:1 currently in the total IQ scores since it somehow implies somewhere along the line that it takes the same amount of intelligence & energy (or neurons, their connections, speed, general efficiency… etc, lol) in conducting these two sets of very different mental tasks. Of course some try to solve the issue by correlations/multiple regressions, etc. stats tools, yet given the correlations are not perfect, therefore much room left to dig deeper and explain.

    2, So as you claimed, some people are excel at both spatial part and verbal part, whereas some others excel at spatial & regular at verbal. To the latter group, Panda however suspects it might not be entirely true.

    It’s because one’s brain energy is limited after all. If we assume that people are naturally prone to dedicate more time&energy into where they’re naturally gifted, it’s logical to deduct that some people who have regular verbal scores have actually sacrificed the verbal part by channeling more of their limited time & energy into spatially-related tasks since early-on. So in fact some of them are not necessarily regular at verbal per se at all as measured by the test. For them it’s just a choice, a deliberate or subconscious choice due to brain energy allocation.

    Since it’s likely not an 1:1 intelligence & energy imput relationship between 1 IQ point of spatial and 1 IQ point of verbal (with the spatial tasks consuming more) as Panda intuitively speculates, vís-a-vís it’s much less the case for ones who excel at verbal while scoring average spatial to be actually excel at spatial as well due to the choice.

  19. jim jones says:
    @Yan Shen

    I see you are still doing the “uh” thing

  20. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Yan, I want to see data from IQ tests performed in the last ten years, broken down by religion: Hindu, Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. (Esp. for young adults 18-30)

    Does this data exist, and how could it be found?

    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
  21. @Buzz Mohawk

    My response as well. There’s a bit of chicken and egg thing to this. After manufacturing moved to Asia is it any surprise that the latent talent there was given incentive and opportunity to express itself? Meanwhile, here, in the good ol’ USofA, with our job market favoring those with verbal skills, we leave a lot of visual-spatial and math talent lying on the sidewalk

  22. Bruce says:

    I work for the biggest defense company. East Asians are present but most of the engineers including the top engineers are white males. Could be the need for a security clearance but that shouldn’t be a problem for Asian Americans.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  23. Good stuff!

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.

    BTW, for Feynman fans there’s nothing better than his video, on YouTube, Los Alamos From Below. Long and wonderful, it introduces all the giants of 20th century physics through a bright kid’s eyes.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @TT
  24. Yan Shen says:
    @DJV Melville

    Minor points: you probably hurriedly ‘cobbled’ rather than ‘cribbed’ your article together.

    Haha, yeah. That was clearly a uh brain freeze on my part… Too bad you can’t edit your comments after the 5 minute mark.

  25. Is this the Yan Shen?

    The “I hate all White guys because they steal all the best looking Asian girls” Yan Shen?

    Either way; dull, pedantic article. Learn to edit. There’s much to be said for brevity.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  26. There are some caveats to this:

    1. Not all parts of technology are equally complex. In sectors like aerospace, East Asia has lagged behind. Again, the design problems, analytical models for design, and materials engineering, metrology, for military and space equipment (like avionics, sensors, composite materials, optics, electronics) is much more advanced than the rest put together. The USA, Russia, Israel and so on lead in these areas. It is much more complex than consumer gadgets, and it requires larger single obstacles. Single large technology innovations, like entirely new capabilities or layers of offense/defense (hypersonic munitions, radar, acoustics) were and are all made in the West or Russia. Although China might pull ahead here in the future, its strong areas are still different.

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions. Also see the work of François Jullien and Roger T. Ames on Chinese philosophy, philology and semiotics, including figures like Wang Bi. China invented a larger range of ‘secondary languages’ on top of natural language (while the West merely attempted it, e.g. the languages of Wilkins, Dalgarno, Leibniz). The West invented the single most rigorous language (formal mathematics).

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage. Pre-scientific experimentation is still just as relevant as science: heat engines were built before thermodynamics, airplanes before aerodynamics, the ‘enigma of the aerofoil’, computers before computer science, and so on.

  27. “Spaceship Earth” needs the crew to renew it.
    Nerdy blowback is further to screw it.
    Albert Einstein was wise,
    Without Faustian guise.
    “Know thyself”? Martian robots can’t do it.

  28. wayfarer says:

    Spent over twenty years earning part-time income as an independent K-12 math and science tutor.

    Most of the work was Internet-based, utilizing a high-speed data connection, landline phone, join.me, and PDF textbooks written by the best authors.

    A self-reliant kid can master arithmetic and establish a sound algebraic foundation with “themathpage.”

    source: http://www.themathpage.com/

    He can then master more advanced topics with the aid of “chalk talk.”

    source: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9SPN6qaM0DB455-DrWAdpA

    A simple secret to becoming an adept mathematician or even an adept musician, is curiosity, desire, access to high-quality instructional materials, and consistent patient practice.

  29. UnzReader says:
    @Thought Criminal

    Wonderful observations…What a bracing breath of fresh air!

    Talk about foolishly short-changing an old and glorious people and civilization using baseless and stupid dichotomies.

  30. Mathematically adept nerds are the real value creators, while their more extroverted, socially dominant, and verbally glib counterparts transfer that underlying value to themselves as business executives. Engineers are great at creating things for value for others to consume. Lawyers and businessmen on the other hand seem mostly proficient at extracting wealth created by others for themselves.

    A fantastic piece … until the above. Chalk it up to high math/spatial ability and lack of verbal reasoning ability.

    A brilliant formula or tech is of no value (economically) until somebody sees a commercial application. Eg – Xerox PARC had GUI but no idea what to do with it until a high verbal IQ Lebanese American white dude said, “I can change the world with this shit!” Or the Chinese invention of gunpowder which they couldn’t conceive a better purpose for than making pretty colorful lights. We all know what Europeans did with that idea. The obverse correlary is the endlessly Jewish debated idea of Marxism which East Asians forgot to debate and proceeded to exterminate 50,000,000 of their own people. Or the endlessly Jewish debated idea of “diversity” which non-Jewish Europeans have maniacally adopted and appear to be using to genocide themselves.

    Having a brilliant idea, whether mathematically or verbally based, is of no value unless thoroughly debated and then marketed (ie “tech transfer”). THIS is the real lesson HBD can teach us isn’t it?

    • Replies: @TT
  31. Dwright says:

    Still doesn’t explain why asians are such poor drivers. Over analytical?

  32. @Bruce

    Could be the need for a security clearance but that shouldn’t be a problem for Asian Americans.

    Isn’t this self-contradictory? The fact that you wrote “Asian Americans” only underscores that human tribalism is VERY real and has real world impacts which would include security clearances.

  33. @Patrick82

    It seems to me that the best and brightest in China at that time (if indeed the scholar-officials can be described in those terms) were dedicated to endeavors that required more verbal ability…the eight-legged essays, poetry, history and philosophy.

    Yes, I wondered about this, too. And so I was considering whether it is explained by the differences between alphabetically-written languages and those employing characters. (This is entire field of investigation within the discipline of western Classics (in particular, Greek studies).) My thinking was running along the lines of: written Chinese is more oriented toward conceptual understanding and less toward verbal nuance, detailed explanations. I think Chinese grammar has this tendency in addition to the written characters, although I’m really guessing as I don’t speak Chinese.

  34. JSM says:
    @Dr. Doom

    However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science

    Explain to me… China has had 5000 years of civilization. How come it was White Guys in Europe that had to invent and discover all the physics, chemistry, engineering and math that Yan is now telling us how amazing China’s rise in these fields is?

    Yan will say, “Oh! White man, he just picked all the low-hanging fruit. It’s the Asians who are now doing all the hard work.”

    So, why WAS it that the White man did the low-fruit-picking? China’s been a civilization for 5000 years. Why did THEY not pick that easy fruit? Huh? Where ya been for the last 5 millenia, Superior Asian Man? Huh?

    • Replies: @jim jones
    , @myself
  35. @Dr. Doom

    Your comment and some others is a forest/trees issue I think and I see it also in the original article. It appears that white people (and South Asians ie Subcontinental Indians) have a higher percentage at the extreme fringes than do East Asians who cluster (like Sub-Saharan Africans and women) closer to their mean. This is highly relevant when we look at exceptionalism no? In gross numbers, East Asian populations will yield more very good math/science practitioners. At the most extreme levels, per capita, they have fewer, but here gross population numbers come to the fore so they’re likely to produce overall more geniuses as well except perhaps at the level of Fields Medalists or history changing physicists.

    Then there’s the issue of herd mentality which seems strongest among whites and East Asians. Having adopted, largely without the endless debating of the originators (Jews), the idea of anti-exceptionalism, we suppress exceptionalism while the East Asians are somewhat less on board despite (or perhaps because) having exterminated 50,000,000 of their own by blindly following such a reprehensible idea without the incessant debates that have largely prevented Jews from wholesale adoption themselves.

    • Replies: @myself
    , @denk
  36. @Thought Criminal

    Many sound points made there.

    Some examples you raise, however, are not entirely true:

    Current state-of-art semicon technologies inside consumer gadgets like some top smartphones don’t loss a bit in their sophistications to any defence tech. Rather, most high end defence tech are rooted on these very semicon tech.

    Aerospace is a money-devouring-machine. One of the major reasons, if not the most deciding reason, why US/RUSSIA are far ahead in aerospace is due to 50-years-cold war accumulation of IMMENSE military budgets, R&D personnel and their forced hands-on experiences competing for life-or-death dominance , which neither China nor Japan had. Panda read somewhere that China’s entire national budget for aerospace engine research & production, both tech, material & personnel cost, for the period from 1950s to 1980s were like meagerly 3 million dollars equivalent, which was less than the annual salary expenditure of a small US defence lab… If you add up fruits of earlier industrialisation foundation, US/UK/Japan/Germany were at least 100 years ahead of China in so many fields even at the 1980s…

    • Replies: @JJ
  37. I didn’t have time to do more than skim right now, but 2 points:

    (1) Re Feynman, the book about his attempted journey to the central Asian nation of Tuva describes Feynman’s attempts to translate Tuvan into English, and his attempts were pretty weak, which seems to support the idea that he had poor verbal ability. Also, his belief that music was fundamentally rhythm seems to indicate that he had “no ear” for aspects of music that most people consider central–those which might be described as the most non-M aspects of music.

    (2) On the other hand, Feynman is famous for his ability to explain complex physics. Is this irrelevant to the M/V divide? This points to a possible problem with Shen’s article (although I haven’t read thoroughly)–the failure to define terms adequately. Is cognitive ability really divisible into M and V parts, and if so, how does that play out in daily life? Isn’t it possible that China just has a huge number of high G people, but that the language barriers and economic demands of present-day life impose restrictions on its verbal expression?

    Ultimately, I am happy to see Yan Shen writing about cognition rather than immigration, as his suggestion that money is the measure of a man’s worth to (some abstraction called) the United States remains disgusting.

  38. George says:

    Is spatial, 3D, reasoning still important? At the highest intellectual levels the theory I have heard, but do not understand, is there are many more dimensions than 3. At the lower levels like engineering, CAD can be used as a crutch for many that do not have natural spatial reasoning.

  39. 1. The West, Russia, Japan, China, all have radically different value systems: the reason why East Asia does not ‘invent’ is because it seeks not to radically invent, but other forms of expansion. Russia, again, has its own value system that led to its heights of literature, high-end engineering, mathematics, and so on.

    The Western world represented explosions: either an explosion at the beginning (Ancient Greece), or an endless explosion: at the top (French, Italian), or explosion from the inward to the outward (German). Quick, virtuosic invention (as in music) is explosion; it is the sudden seizing out, the inward to the outward, domination over a single great moment. Gradual construction, levels of discipline and vision (starting with the Romans, and cumulating in the development of accurate measurement and visual representation in the Italian Renaissance), directs invention and prevents its excesses. German culture ended with Richard Wagner, since he represented such a complete satisfaction of the inward exploding completely and totally, that there was nothing left to express: the full journey of body, mind and spirit ended here. (The only other explosive civilization of the past was Ancient India.)

    Russia (and also I think Hungary) represents turbulent eddies, vortices, psychological rather than philosophical, mentally unclear but clean in substance, the inward world that imitates and reflects the outward. It is the endless development and recovery from inner confusion. (Hence, the weakness of Russian philosophy was the strength of the Russian novel.) This is not the ‘explosion’ from the inward to the outward. It does not explode, it ‘gathers’ and mobilizes all aspects. The Russian expansion is the highest and deepest domination that ‘makes up for’ an inward disorder or blockage in a few crucial regions, makes up for the arctic squalor of the surroundings. (Hence, the Soviet style in mathematics and theoretical physics, without a single wasted particle of thought.) The obstacles are inward, not outward.

    East Asia represents not invention (the explosion), nor the endless “brewing” of Russia, but the power of organic breadth of expansion (while invention is only one type of expansion, but the fastest). East Asia has many uniquely deep forms of construction (the ‘dialectical’ structuring in its painting, literature, strategy), while the West has two uniquely deep forms of architectonic (pure mathematics, classical music composition). Unlike what Oswald Spengler said, there was never any clear, or non-muddled ‘inward consciousness’ of China or Japan, since the real basic principles were a matter of conceptual formation: everything — every conception, rule, goal, distinction, and inward-directedness — was a compromise or ‘moderated point’ between opposites (hence the contradictoriness of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism, one of them backward-looking even at an early point, one of them ‘moderated’ between inwardness and outwardness, one of them extreme — and each of them dealing with a different domain of questions). Another way to see this is that China never reached full civilization and satisfaction, nor had any ‘hardening’ to backward-looking satisfaction, or even any form of complete civilization: it combined or perpetually mixed this with its opposite: this is obvious at the levels of basic institutional disorder at each period (with violence ‘brewing’ beneath the surface), and the huge expansion in epic literature and strategic thinking that took place at later periods (say the Three Kingdoms). The same applies to Japan: it achieved enormous expansions, such as epic Samurai literature (The Tale of the Heike). It represents the wide expansion of an organism, that remains powerful at every single period, rather than completely revolutionary during a single one.

    Rather, the Chinese and Japanese conception of civilization is not a perfected state, but an arrangement that works in the long term (which must be moderated, not perfected). The Western revolutions in fundamental science were dependent on a stage in history, much like the advances in Ancient India (that constructed entire notations and subject matter from scratch). It is not guaranteed to be relevant beyond it. East Asian advances (in pre-scientific discovery and pure engineering) are relevant in every single stage, but not absolutely dominant over any single one. But after a certain stage in history (say, after fundamental physics is mostly clarified and there are only advances in condensed matter, complex systems and such), there is good evidence that both the Russian and East Asian modes will be dominant over the Western one.

    2. The two (China and Japan) never were antagonists. Japan helped China at a systemic level; competent Chinese leadership were trained in Japan (like Chiang Kai-Shek, Zhou En-lai), and without Japan there would have been no Chinese attempt at modernization. Japanese conquest of Manchuria was necessary to halting Russian imperial advances towards China. A Japanese conquest of China would subtract nothing from the culture but simply add additional elements (compare this to the Maoists, who tried to abolish Kanji). Japanese ‘massacres’ were balanced by the fact that they saved elite Chinese cultural figures like Lu Xun from nationalist White Terror. The technology transfer that went from Japan to China from the 1970s-90s was the largest transfer of production know-how in all of human history, and covered extreme high-end production technology that the USA tried to avoid access to (this is detailed by Eamonn Fingleton, in his book). The point is, without Japan, China would be nowhere today: and vice versa (Japan’s industrialization of Manchuria provided the model for its post-war economic system). E. Asian countries have ambiguous — not absolutely negative or positive — relations with each other. The West tends to misunderstand this because it simply stops at observing a certain practice without looking at different aspects of it. E.g., the same Chinese people who complain about Japan also buy Japanese products and entertainment, visit Japan as tourists, and Chinese students still seek Japan as the top destination.

    This is based on the basic principles. Chinese and Japanese culture (including its philosophy and basic way of forming conceptions) is based on the principle of moderation: every belief, rule, law, goal, system is not followed absolutely but with exceptions, or with contradictory aspects. The same goes for Japan and other E. Asian countries: if you understand their philosophy and cultural values, “moderation” is something prior to the idea of civilization itself. That is, China was never completely civilized in its history (but mixed civilization, barbarism, decadence). The West fully rises and declines; China never had any comparable golden ages (only silver ages). China does not support full freedom or totalitarianism, but some compromise in the middle (escaping certain limitations of both extremes, like internet restrictions today are easily evaded). There is little absolute friendship or opening oneself up in China (hence the dislike for dogs). China is never fully educated, but never completely ‘dark’ (there is a ‘spirit’ of education). China was never absolutely safe in any part of its history, but it avoided both extremes. China is never absolutely racialist; it referred to barbarians as inferiors, but it also encouraged racial mixing with barbarians throughout its history, and the concept of ‘Chinese’ is racially ambiguous (not as universal as ‘Roman’, but not strictly an ethnic group either). There is a sharp moderation between the public and the private views, in which contradictions are cultivated. China never had absolute civic spirit, but its periods of disunity lasted shorter than in the West (where an empire permanently split into smaller warring countries). Guerilla warfare is China’s specialty, and it is literally ‘intermediate’ between individual criminality, and organized, civic warfare. That is, China is not any less criminal than the West, but it lacks any features of blunt, random violence as in the West, or purely gratuitous violence or torture. None of this is guaranteed to be absolutely superior or inferior; it actually depends on which stage of history one is talking about.

    (It is exactly by working with moderated properties, like Yin and Yang not being absolutely exclusive, that makes qualities more elaborate and structured, with one thing converting to its opposite if pushed enough; e.g., by attempting to be moderate in every area, you push the extremes to a few crucial ones — like the vast scale of literary production, and overall longevity. Also, there is no ‘induction’ from a particular to a general since every particular fact is actually fully ‘general’; every particular belief or seemingly simple distinction, is structured by contradictory aspects.)

    This has, it must be admitted, certain long-term advantages: the fact that China is never absolutely civilized (but is partly barbarous, and partly decadent) prevents it from declining to extreme decadence, like what is happening with European birthrates. The fact that they are centralized yet highly corrupt has long-term advantages, since China can adopt many ‘dangerous’ technologies that would not be possible in more rigid societies (like a long-term space program, human genetic engineering). China was never as militarily powerful as the Roman Empire or Russia or Germany was at its height, but never as weak as they were in their weak periods either: this again makes for longevity (of military power; that is, China’s guerilla warfare capabilities were always good and they were able to ‘gradually’ push out invaders).

    But then ‘longevity’ itself is moderated: China is slightly more continuous (in terms of a continued stream of major and highly influential literary production) than India, Persia or Europe, and in the form of institutions, and in specific intellectual ‘traditions’ that depend on deep linguistic construction, but it is not quite as continuous as Japan. It is in many aspects (like presevation of architecture) not as continuous as Europe. Not only is longevity moderated, but also the attitude towards longevity is moderated: China boasts about being ancient, but destroys actual direct artifacts of the past, and it also adopts foreign ideas, technology, and so on.

    It is also the basic principle of both Chinese and Japanese philosophy. Yukio Mishima, say, was a good example of a Japanese ‘Zen’ figure (and he is still so regarded in Japan itself); by purging himself of Chinese influence, he becomes a figure characteristic of China itself (the ‘revolutionary ideologists’ at the end of each dynastic period, including Lu Xun in the 20th century) rather than Japan. By supporting his own imaginary Japan, he renders himself helpless against the real, actual Japan in the flesh. By being a Western-style individualist and Nietzschean egotist (towards positive affirmation), he commits suicide in the end (nihilism), which is the extreme ‘emptiness’ of the self. By rejecting Buddhism, he becomes a very ‘Zen’ figure. By projecting a false image of the Japanese as inward individualists, he paralyzes the Western understanding of Japan, and so destroys the West and individualism.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @JJ
    , @myself
  40. jim jones says:
    @JSM

    We should have a list of all the things China failed to invent:

    Internal combustion engine
    The Transistor
    Antibiotics
    The Calculus
    The jet engine
    Polymers
    Nuclear fission and fusion
    Nitrogen fertilizers
    Vaccines
    Television
    Radio

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @bjondo
    , @Anon
  41. My own opinion on this is that East Asian ‘visuo-spatial’ intelligence led to deeper contributions to pure literature (which lacked that ingredient), while Western verbal intelligence (for alphabetic, not logographic languages) stimulated the development of mathematics (say, the idea of mathematical proof derived from verbal dialectic, like the ‘argument from contradiction’). That is, mathematics at the higher levels actually requires abilities other than mathematical; and literature at the higher levels benefits from the additional level of visual content that Kanji provides (that facilitates poetry).

  42. Joe Hide says:

    To Ya Shen,,
    Great material but too long. You might try presenting such outstanding thoughts in 3 articles instead of 1.
    Still, it is at least 3.5 standard deviations to the right of average on the standard bell curve for I.Q writings…HA!
    Please continue to write for we verbally cognitively advanced & skewed reader’s more!

  43. AaronB says:

    I was going to analyze this objectively – so many built-in assumptions and historical errors! – but then I realized the purpose of a mythology isn’t to represent objective fact, but to provide inspiration, encouragement, and most importantly – self-validation.

    Whats more -like all myths, this one expresses a deeper, multi-level truth about the current alignment of races and countries, and “all” historical moments try and validate themselves as eternal and inevitable.

    Asians have tried really hard to prove themselves and catch up with the superior power of the West by abandoning their traditional literary culture and channeling all their energies into engineering and technology – the source of the West’s unstoppable power. A major sacrifice.

    And the West really has lost its will to power and slacked off when it comes to the “power” disciplines.

    This new historical moment needs a new myth to validate itself, just as the 19th century needed the myth of the “white man’s burden”, and the Jewish ascendancy needed the myth of “meritocracy” – both concealed fact even as they revealed true aspects of the historical situation they were meant to describe.

    And I say – let the Asians have it. They deserve it. They have worked really hard to “prove” themselves and it has borne fruit.

    What Asians need most is to become reconciled with themselves and the world, and the bitterness and the resentment so many Asians feel today will only dissolve in time when they have satisfied themselves they are not inferior to the West – which they are not!

    But they need to satisfy themselves on this score. They have sacrificed much joy in life towards this end.

    What’s more, it seems increasingly clear to me that whites are not prepared to make the sacrifices needed to “prove” themselves but are entering a different phase.

    This will be the Asian century – let’s all celebrate it and find curiosity in what the Asian genius will produce in a new and interesting way. I’m very curious myself.

    We are a decade or two away from the end of the “catch up” phase and will soon be entering the Asian century phase.

    In an inevitable historical reversal, the West can now enter a relaxed phase where it cultivates the “arts of life”, as Asians once did, under a new organization that will emerge at the end of the current chaos that is the natural result of the end of the will to power phase, with its initual bewildering disorganization.

  44. Writing an article assuming anyone knows what HBD is, not a sign of a high IQ.
    Who can enlighten me ?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Alden
  45. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Johnny Smoggins

    Isn’t the reverse true? Vox Day acknowledges as much.

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/05/mailvox-why-do-white-women-choose-black.html

    3. Low rank white women tend to be overvalued by black men. The woman who can attract only white 3s is often able to attract black 7s. I know several black male-white female couples where the black man is significantly more attractive than the white woman. This phenomenon is also often seen in white male-Asian female couples. When a woman has the option to increase her sex rank simply by expanding the pool of acceptable men, it should come as no surprise that many elect to do so.

    Anyone living somewhere with a large Asian population learns to recognize the hate-fact that Asian women in these relationships generally range from ugly to remarkably ugly. Miscegenation rarely has aesthetic appeal.

    • Replies: @Johnny Smoggins
  46. AaronB says:
    @Thought Criminal

    Very intelligent and interesting comment, which strikes me as broadly true.

    The West doesn’t do moderation – extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It’s an unstable system.

    The Middle Ages were more of a moderate period of the West, but it gradually slipped into extreme pessimism by the 14th century, and was then replaced by extreme earthly optimism. The late 19th century saw despair and apathy growing as all that conquest and technological brilliance failed to result in “redemption”, and life in this world remained as thorny and unsatisaying as ever.

    It will be interesting to see if Asia has really been transformed from within in a Western direction – and is now in a “Faustian” phase – or if it’s a superficial graft and will be shed like a false skin once conditions are more propitious.

    So far, the nature of Asian catching up with the West has not been Faustian – no brilliant explosions – but a moderate level of steadily accumulating performance that, combined with the post-Faustian apathy of the West, has shifted the center of gravity towards Asia.

    But it’s too early to tell.

    If the Japanese trajectory is a template for what we can except of an Asia trying to match and surpass the West, then we can except China to undergo a brief effloresence of performance followed by a return to more traditional cultural patterns that moderate disparate elements.

    And it will be interesting to see if the Faustian West has finaly dedtroyed itself or will learn moderation at long last.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @myself
  47. WhiteWolf says:
    @DJV Melville

    When I was at school I was a natural at maths. I couldn’t understand why people had problems with it. To me it was a ridiculously easy subject. Yet I watched in awe one day as a student drew a scene from a sci-fi movie he had watched from memory. As I heaped praise on his talent he just shrugged. To him that was ridiculously easy and he thought nothing of it. I think we all tend to downplay our own talents and admire people who show talent in something we struggle with.

  48. @AaronB

    The West doesn’t do moderation – extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It’s an unstable system.

    Not sure about unstable, but yes. Its notable that the West really does seem to swing between golden and dark ages consistently. Insofar as moderation goes, I highly doubt the Faustian West will be “destroyed” either – restlessness clearly serves a purpose, and like all cycles, it’ll probably find its expression in a golden age once again after some generations.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  49. @Thought Criminal

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)

    While I agree that there, basically, are different “mathematical intelligences”, I think it is too early to say anything significant re east Asian accomplishments in math; as for Fields medals, we’ll have to see what happens in next 20-30 years.

    And, by the way, your thoughtful reference to Poincare, Hadamard (and we could add most of the greats from Descartes on) shows that “math intelligence” is a rough & perhaps too contradictory a concept.

    Perhaps “intelligence” is too narrow. What about creativity, imagination, “visual thinking”, non-discursive “thinking” a la Plotinus (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=5BBF8C5AE74B97F18D4379819A512F84)?

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions.

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    The same with literature- poetry is not translatable, while there are no Asian equivalents to universality of Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Proust.

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage.

    This is partly true, but I haven’t seen any progress in applying, say, acupuncture to modern medicine. In fact, it was seen to be a monumental placebo in some instances: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/ , http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Yan Shen
    , @TT
    , @Dmitry
  50. JJ says:
    @PandaAtWar

    I agree on the aerospace analysis. Besides aerospace, to produce meaningful results most R&D is essentially a game of burning money plus accumulated experience/data from past trial and error (that also demands real money).The US economy relies heavily on seignoiorage from the dollar hegemony, but as the national debts grow, its previous model of depending on extravagant government funds and grants in R&D development has become difficult to go on. For example, in order to verify some basic data of a certain composite material US labs would conduct thousands of experiments, whereas china could achieve the same result by dozen times.

    Many people imagine high-tech as something hidden in the lab or like alien tech. They simply ignore the fact that those lab techs are meaningful only if they are accessible to people. If smart phones could be made better yet cheaper, i’d say that’s tremendous high-tech.

  51. Retarded little Chinese clone speaks that the world will be theirs – Hello Bot, we’ll kill this clone project. Zhidaou bu – Chinese Imbecile – the world hates you clones.

  52. Kartheek says:

    1.some one tell how come upper caste hindus (actually all castes in india) who practiced endogamy aka selection for atleast 2500 years are not more intelligent than jewish people

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Billy
  53. @jilles dykstra

    Sure.

    Segregation was on display in London over the past two weeks–which, surprisingly, should spark no concerns and may even help educate us all about the wonders of human biodiversity. Let me explain.

    Led by 100-meter world record holder Usain Bolt, Jamaican men swept the sprinting events at the London Olympics. It was a stunning feat for the small Caribbean nation. But as part of a broader trend, it’s hardly surprising. Runners of West African descent are the fastest humans on earth….

    …This is population genetics 101. Bolt and his Jamaican teammates are members of a tiny slice of the world population—elite athletes who trace their ancestry to western and central Africa—whose body types and physiology have been uniquely shaped by thousands of years of evolution to run fast.

    Genetically linked, highly heritable characteristics such as skeletal structure, the distribution of muscle fiber types (for example, sprinters have more natural fast twitch fibers, while distance runners are naturally endowed with more of the slow twitch variety), reflex capabilities, metabolic efficiency and lung capacity are not evenly distributed among populations. Do we yet know the specific genes that contribute to on the field success? No, but that’s not an argument against the powerful role of genetics in sports.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2012/08/12/the-dna-olympics-jamaicans-win-sprinting-genetic-lottery-and-why-we-should-all-care/2/#49d0fa283fbe

    The brain is significantly, vastly more complex than muscle fiber, but there’s no reason to believe that it is completely immune to selectional pressures(or even pure happenstance). A more active amygdala will elicit certain behaviors, a more active prefrontal cortex will elicit others, and even as extraneous chemicals that pass the blood-brain barrier such as alcohol will affect cognition and behavior, it stands to reason that internally created chemicals will also affect behavior(as well as the types of neurons, receptors, etc.) We see both in sexual dimorphism of the brain, with the effects of testosterone on the brain both in its “carving” effects of reducing the connectivity of the corpus corpus callosum and presumably some effect that leads to larger hippocampi; the direct effect of testosterone injected in women also increases sense of competition, sexual interest and spatial intelligence. Akin to software, the chemical has an effect but the chemical also affects the hardware of the brain.

    This, of course, also makes me find IQ to be a rather dubious measure at times given the sheer complexity of how the brain works and what makes up cognition. But I can accept it as a casual, catch-all term with some limited functional utility.

  54. Truth says:

    Assigned to write a story about what was going on at home, Terry went from room to room and made detailed lists of the contents.”

    Sounds like a barrel of monkeys.

    Social science might better be described these days as social justice, as so-called scientists often merely reinforce their ideological priors and preach politically correct, sanctimonious bullshit. Ideology masquerading as science, alas.

    Not nearly as much as physics. NASA is fake, and the “universe” is geocentric.

    Mathematically adept nerds are the real value creators, while their more extroverted, socially dominant, and verbally glib counterparts transfer that underlying value to themselves as business executives. Engineers are great at creating things for value for others to consume. Lawyers and businessmen on the other hand seem mostly proficient at extracting wealth created by others for themselves.

    This is senseless. Wealth cannot be extracted from a column of mathematical computations, or even a garage invention. Wealth is created when these products find their physical value in the market. That’s why Edison is more famous, and influential today, than Tesla.

    Good virgin effort though, my friend, superior to most of what is printed here already. Minor quibble though, don’t write “conclusion” on your work. It’s a op/ed piece, not a dissertation.

    • Replies: @WhiteWolf
  55. Alden says:
    @jilles dykstra

    It means Human Bio Diversity.

    For a long time liberals have claimed that all races and ethnicities are the same despite obvious differences in size, color, bone structure.

    Realists call the physical biological differences Human Bio Diversity it’s a way to counteract the liberal propaganda that the only reason Africans and other races haven’t advanced is because of colonialism and evil White people

    Liberals call HBD racism, eugenics etc

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  56. JJ says:
    @Thought Criminal

    I remember reading a comment here suggesting that the Christian values have played an important role in pushing the western society forward by encouraging people to seek new things. In contrast, there is a saying in China that living in the moment 活在当下, and i think china would be happily to do so had it not for the purpose of catching up and competing with the west after the opium war. If we think about it, are we really that much happier than our ancestors living in the past with no TVs, smartphones, etc? Modern technologies are basically some fancy toys that divert our attention from something to another. So far we haven’t faced a nuclear holocaust that causes the collapse of civilization, but the relentless urge to be unique, to invent something new, may well lead to the demise of human race. For one thing, AI is not that far away to replace humans.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  57. Truth says:

    and in general the country seems to be run by a coterie of lawyers and TV stars, while in contrast Chinese leaders seem to disproportionately possess engineering degrees instead. [42]

    Well if one were to assume the net immigration flow as evidence, my question would be, “how’s that workin’ out?”

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  58. @Kartheek

    Selection will only improve to the extent required by the environment: extant marsupials are well selected for survival in Australia but do not compete well against placental mammals introduced elsewhere.

    That’s one theory at any rate.

  59. sondjata says:

    This was probably the best read I’ve had this year so far.

  60. East Asians are a bunch of high IQ clones, they are the human approximation of BOTs there’s no metaphysics in their souls – nothing at all – their religion which they don’t now have came from India – Buddhism – which doesn’t exist now – bunch of money grubbing bots they are close to being total machines – beware of these bots UNZ commenteriat. They are the closest approximation to human machines – no metaphysics in their souls.

    • Replies: @TT
  61. Good, well-referenced article, wow! (though I’ll admit I skimmed parts). Typo alert: Yamanka -> Yamanaka in photo legend.

  62. @JJ

    For one thing, AI is not that far away to replace humans.

    And it doesn’t need to. As Kacynzski noted, we rapidly moving to outsource our thinking away from us. So the thinkmeats in our heads probably won’t matter all that much anymore soon enough.

  63. Remember this UNZ east Asians are BOTs there’s no metaphysics in their SOULS. Just ruthless pragmatists who approximate ROBOTS.

  64. Alden says:
    @Dwright

    Asians born or raised in America are just fine. It’s the immigrants from many countries not just Asians that are the problem.

    • Replies: @Truth
  65. bjondo says:
    @jim jones

    What invented and what found?

    • Replies: @Realist
  66. @Truth

    Very poorly, but is being promoted by other members of the conspiracy that claim that Earth is not actually flat!

  67. Truth says:
    @Alden

    Tillie disagrees!

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  68. Don’t get me wrong I’m married to a Chinese wife but this cultures’ lack of metaphysics is something to be noted just like their lack of protest at the present president declaring himself a tyrant for life.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  69. @Dwright

    Being human flesh clones, our thinking has to be outsourced to from a nearby mothership and it takes a few seconds for reflexive decisions to be made as increasing junk lowers signal integrity from the near-earth orbit.

  70. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    That’s a good point, the West may well rise up again in a golden age at some future point, as it’s history would suggest.

    However, there is always the possibility that the “Western cycle” of extreme rise and fall, as opposed to the “Asian cycle” of moderate rise and fall, has fewer cycles – because each cycle is more extreme – and may have a natural denouement.

    There might also be a “meta-cycle” in which the entire human world is now rushing towards destruction, to be followed perhaps by vast ice ages and climatic and geologic catastrophe, only for a new world to rise on its ashes – a new species even, perhaps, or a non human world.

    We know so little, and there is non reason the world needs to be favorable to our little species.

    Such vast cycles of world destruction are hinted at in Indian and Asian cosmogonies.

  71. AaronB says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition,

    This is unfortunately untrue. Contra Yan Shen and the (understandably) emerging mythology, the distinctive Western achievement – its civilizations excellence – is in science, math, engineering, and technology.

    It is precisely in literature and philosophy where the West has not exceeded other civilizations – although it competed well.

    The Chinese reached the summit and apogee of philosophical thought, beyond which human thought cannot go, in its incomparably subtle and classic Taoist texts. This happened rather early – it took the Western tradition over 2,000 years to reach the same level of subtlety and to realize the limitations of language and the value of silence.

    What you see as a “rich” Western tradition is a record of movement towards a culminating point reached much earlier in China and India. Such a record would appear “rich” – and perhaps it’s value is as a record of the steps.

    But the culminating point appeared full blown much earlier elsewhere.

  72. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Third time is the charm for trolls, I hear.

  73. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    If you were a student in China who wanted to study in the US during the 1970s, 80s, or 90s, etc., and you wanted the Chinese government to let you go, you had to be a science or engineering student. The government saw no benefit to letting students go abroad who wanted to study literature.

    This effect was repeated in other Asian countries, but for different reasons. The best science and engineering schools are in the US, so students of that ilk tend to go to the US. But if you were verbally gifted, the universities at home served you fine.

    But over the last two generations, this means that the Asian students trained in the US in sciences were the ones most likely to have picked up connections that could land them US science jobs after their time in the US university. Some of them naturally chose to leave their home countries and move to the US. The Asian-US population has a disproportionate number of scientists in it, and their kids tend to move in Asian social enclaves among the kids of other Asian scientists, and marry among them. This favors the science genes.

    Also, US tech companies arrange for HB-1 visas to be given to science students. They don’t give them to literature students because they see no reason to hire from that pool in the Asian countries.

    The Asian-US population is not a representative sample of Asians.

  74. It was not IQ which won the west this world, it was boldness of the spirit of adventure which can’t be measured in any test. Who would want to be Columbus, or Magellan, oceans are terrifying a taste of the infinity we live in – yet they sailed through these navigators of the infinite – which no other culture did – these Chinese bots didn’t even discover the giant continent sized country Australia – right under there asses – yet it took a Captain Cook to discover something under this clone army asses.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @TT
  75. @Daniel Chieh

    LOL
    In the days of Marshal Stalin, they only needed one worker, Comrade Stakhanov, not 1,500. Obviously, things have been regressing since the good old days, as Andrei Martyanov, The Saker et al will attest.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  76. lavoisier says: • Website

    Very interesting perspective and probably true.

    And what about creativity? Novelty? Any split there with mathematical versus verbal ability?

    Given the clear ascendancy of an Asian technical elite today what is the explanation for scientific creativity and innovation historically being almost exclusively a Western creation?

  77. @Alden

    They are not
    Melville J. Herskovits, ‘The Myth of the Negro Past’, 1941, 1958, Boston

  78. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Just the will to survive
    Felipe Fernández-Armesto, ‘Civilisations’, London, 2000

  79. YS, gives us a palaverous stew. The base for it is yeah Math, and East Asians are skewed to the right for it. From this fairly sound base he adds in a vegetable mix that taints the stew. There are rich and hearty bites here. A countries manufacturing base matters and should be protected. It is just too bad it is cruded up with so much adulterated unctuousness.

    YS struggles as he has immersed himself in the west, yet seems to hate himself for it. He is a poster child for why we need to turn the immigration dial down to simmer and let the melting pot work.

  80. @lavoisier

    I have some theories, but yes, creativity is not particularly related to IQ from my research. There’s some evidence that it is even negatively correlated, as children with ADHD have worse working memory(highly tied to IQ) but better creativity.

    I actually have a much more extensive theory on this. I do find it a bit unfortunate that overall, there isn’t actually that much research in creativity and instead we get a lot of flipflam out there.

  81. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    That’s cool!

    Those preganant women will be able to get to the airport so much more comfortably.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/04/01/china-usa-birth-tourists-business-strong/24887837/

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  82. @Verymuchalive

    Honestly a lot of feats are possible once you have the infrastructure for it. One particular reason why I dislike the entire “oh at this gleaming monument” attention-grabbers that are so popular is that it usually neglects the scaffolding of having the right people, processes and other things which take a lot longer to develop.

    You can build a widget in 5 minutes, but the important part is the 50 years in the knowledge and equipment to build the assembly plant, managers and so on. People seem very fixated on the end product widgets, though.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  83. A couple of gripes: an incidental one – Weinberg’s comments about philosophy are not just philistinic but wrong – look at Einstein’s engagement with the epistemological tradition and its influence on his thought for example.

    Secondly, and more importantly, I worry about an argument based on comparisons in only the contemporary world. If an analyst were asked the same question – comparing quantitative and non quantitative intelligence between E Asia and Europe in the year 1800, what would he decide? I believe he would come to the opposite conclusions – that Europe’s increasing global dominance was based on its quantitative science and E Asia’s decline on its focus on non quantitative / ‘civilizational’ arts and skills. But if this difference has an HBD component the difference in eras shouldn’t matter.

    I suspect sociological factors matter just as much as genetic – in that the most quantitative-heavy industries are the ones most associated with development ‘catch-up’. But that’s just a first stab at an alternative hypothesis.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  84. @Truth

    As cute as the snide link might be, it is pretty indicative that the result of the near total absence of any technical know-how in American leadership has led to some really nonoptimal results as of late. I’m not one to argue that there should be more engineers in Congress, etc; but I think that the presence of technically competent advisers and staff should be greater. The almost complete dearth of anything but lawyers in all levels of decisionmaking leads to some very strange results.

    It contributes heavily to the entire “not a serious country” feeling. This is not a “white countries with rule of law need lawyers” thing; even in Germany, there is a greater proportion of politicians with engineering or scientific degrees. I believe this is the case in Russia as well.

    • Replies: @Truth
  85. @lavoisier

    The Grand Titration Science and Society in East and West China History, Philosopy, Economic

    Joseph Needham

    Published by Routledge

    The historical civilization of China is, with the Indian and European-Semitic, one of the three greatest in the world, yet only relatively recently has any enquiry been begun into its achievements in science and technology.
    Between the first and fifteenth centuries the Chinese were generally far in advance of Europe and it was not until the scientific revolution of the Renaissance that Europe drew ahead.
    Throughout those fifteen centuries, and ever since, the West has been profoundly affected by the discoveries and invention emanating from China and East Asia.
    In this series of essays and lectures, Joseph Needham explores the mystery of Chinas early lead and Europes later overtaking

  86. AaronB says:

    Given the clear ascendancy of an Asian technical elite today what is the explanation for scientific creativity and innovation historically being almost exclusively a Western creation?

    One hypothesis is that it’s effort.

    Since effort cannot be separated from IQ, it seems likely that current Asian technological ascendancy, as well as spatial IQ tilt, is a result of a tremendous redirection of effort away from traditional literary pursuits in order to meet the challenge of the West.

    Similarly, the Western technological ascendancy was the result of a tremendous redirection of effort towards domination of nature.

    There is evidence that western IQs were higher in the 19th century – the great age of striving – and I wonder if western spatial IQ also was higher, though perhaps not as tilted.

  87. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    So basically, if you have an IQ of 125+ and are pretty unbalanced, then the sky’s the limit, so far as achievement is concerned. However, if you can both add up and do joined up writing, you’re probably not going anywhere other than to do some of the essential work of the world and perhaps raising another generation of nobodies.

  88. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    We don’t need “optimal results” my friend. Technology is overrated.

    “You” built a subway in a day. Great! But the workers still can’t afford an apartment, and will never be married.

    So who cares?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @AaronB
  89. AaronB says:
    @blank-misgivings

    If an analyst were asked the same question – comparing quantitative and non quantitative intelligence between E Asia and Europe in the year 1800, what would he decide? I believe he would come to the opposite conclusions – that Europe’s increasing global dominance was based on its quantitative science and E Asia’s decline on its focus on non quantitative / ‘civilizational’ arts and skills.

    Excellent point.

    It’s why all these comparisons based on recent data from the last century are seriously problematical.

  90. Eagle Eye says:
    @anony-mouse

    Yes, good piece, but needs serious editing and tightening (which coincidentally proves the main point re math-verbal split). In particular, get rid of the over-use of “I” – reminds one of a Barry Obama speech.

    Also, the thesis raises some follow-on points:

    (1) What other sub-areas of abilities (apart from verbal) are of practical importance and show divergence from general g?

    For example, features such as stubbornness in the face of accepted scientific (or political, etc.) opinion? (Think of 司馬遷, Martin Luther, Max Planck, etc.)

    (2) Given the divergence of verbal and non-verbal abilities at the right tail, does it still make sense to aggregate these measurements into a single g value?

    P.S.: Please correct the name of the Japanese physician in the caption. It’s Shinya Yam_A_naka.

  91. @Verymuchalive

    Yes, I tend to think of those as silly boondoggles.

  92. @Truth

    We don’t need “optimal results” my friend. Technology is overrated.

    Anything is possible on Flat Earth.

    Indeed, even apartments are unnecessary because they need technology to build. This is an exceedingly pointless discussion clearly being done on the “internet”, which is also overrated and unneeded.

    • Replies: @Truth
  93. AaronB says:
    @Truth

    Let them have their day of victory.

    The West was also crowing in it’s day of techno ascendancy. It’s ungenerous and petty to deny it to Asians when the tables are turned. They worked very hard for this.

    I’m extremely optimistic – even excited – that the West is beginning to see that “technology is overrated”, but if we have really decided to shift our efforts away from techno ascendancy let’s generously allow Asians their day in the sun.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Yan Shen
  94. j2 says:

    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

    What I mean is that:
    If Chinese government invests on scientific achievements on certain fields, they can expect results on those fields. They have money, they can do it. Europeans currently cannot do the same as they do not have so much money since their companies invested in the East where work was cheaper.

    There is no fundamental identity between the fields that a government decides to support and the IQ profile of the people. From every people with over 1 million population you can find talents to make high level scientific work if you can give them salary and time to do them. So, if you have lots of money and want a specific scientific field to the top level, you can do it, just like you can do it in sport. Take any sport, invest on it, you will find the talents if you offer them jobs, and then the sport goes up.

    It is also not at all clear how much of the IQ profile (verbal vs. visual-spatial) is genetic and how much it depends on developing those skills. As Eastern Asians are more introverted, they have less social communication and develop lower verbal skills. That does not necessarily mean that their genetic verbal IQ is lower, only that for genetic non-IQ related reason (introversion) they develop verbal skills less and spatial skills more.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    , @RudyM
    , @Dmitry
  95. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    You don’t have Twinkie’s IQ, but you are smart enough to understand the point.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Truth
  96. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.

    I wonder if this is due to the difficulty of the Chinese writing system? Taiwan also scored near China in reading, yet Korea and Japan scored higher, and Singapore and Hong Kong were the two highest scoring countries.

    • Replies: @TT
  97. J.Ross says: • Website

    You are corrrect that trying to attribute all East Asian quantitative test success to cheating is wrongheaded. You are wasting your time if you think nobody knows about the normality of cheating amd dishonesty in East Asian culture, to include numerous anecdotes and proverbs about top-level highly educated figures placing ends above means. This accusation cannot be banished by refining the understanding of HBD concepts because it is a cultural and verbal matter.
    I suggest you read some Hemingway for style guidance.
    Other than that, this was a very nice column with a legitimate argument with clear evidence.

  98. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @lavoisier

    And what about creativity? Novelty? Any split there with mathematical versus verbal ability?

    Does anyone know if creativity is related to the personality trait “openness to experience”? Off-hand, I assume people of Euro descent score higher in that than do people of E. Asian descent. If so, could “openness to experience” also be related to Europeans’ love affair with mass immigration, LGBT, and other pathologies in the West?

  99. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Dwright

    I suspect it could have to do with myopia. But I think they don’t necessarily cause more accidents. So, I guess, bad but relatively safe drivers?:
    [...]
    ETHNICITY PLAYS ROLE IN VISION PROBLEMS, RESEARCH SUGGESTS

    In this study, 18.5 percent of the Asian children were nearsighted — thats more than four times the number of nearsighted white children (4.4 percent); three times the number of [near]sighted African American children (6.6 percent); and one-and-a-half times the number of nearsighted Hispanic children (13.2 percent.)

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/kat-chow-on-npr-andrew-sullivans-model-minority-myth-ignores-poverty-of-bhutanese-americans/#comment-1842990

    Relationship between night myopia and night-time motor vehicle accidents

    There was no statistically significant difference between these drivers and the rest of the group in the results of the visual complaints questionnaire, or in the number of accidents occurring during the day. However, drivers with a myopic shift >0.75 D were involved in more accidents at night than the rest of the group (p¼ 0.044).
    Conclusions:
    In this study population, drivers with night myopia of >0.75 D were more likely to be involved in night-time accidents. This may imply that selected groups of drivers should be examined for night myopia.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0420.2006.00875.x/pdf

    Vision and Driving

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2975746/

    Many studies have converged in indicating that visual acuity is, at best, very weakly linked to driver safety (i.e., collision involvement) and thus is a poor screening test for identifying drivers who are at-risk for future crash involvement. In contrast, it is clear that visual acuity is related to certain aspects of driving performance (e.g., road sign recognition).

    Study finds causes of high rate of myopia among Asian school-leavers

    A new study has found that up to 90 per cent of school-leavers in Asia’s major cities are suffering from myopia, or short-sightedness. Of these affected, scientists said that 10 to 20 per cent had a condition called high myopia, which can lead to blindness. The study, published in The Lancet medical journal, linked the eye damage with the long hours spent by Asian students studying as well as the lack of outdoor light.

    Hasidim believe that casual time outdoors exposes them to the temptations of the streets, not the least of which are skimpily dressed New Yorkers, said Alexander Rapaport, a Hasid who runs the Masbia soup kitchens in Brooklyn and Queens.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/hasidic-jews-in-heavy-dress-bear-up-in-summer.html

    The influence of study habits on myopia in Jewish teenagers.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8254449 Zylbermann et al. (1993)

    We found a statistically significant higher prevalence and degree of myopia in a group of 193 Orthodox Jewish male students who differed from the rest in their study habits.

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/judeo-centrism-myths-and-mania/#comment-1849454

    So why are we such crashingly bad drivers?

    Of course, criticising female drivers – both anecdotally and scientifically – is nothing new. Countless pieces of research testify to the fact that when it comes to factors such as navigation and spatial awareness, we are less capable than men.

    But none of these studies have yet to factor in a variable that takes bad female driving to another level entirely: being Jewish. This piece of research is all mine – though I admit empirical evidence is purely anecdotal. But believe me, it’s enough.

    https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/so-why-are-we-such-crashingly-bad-drivers-1.65494

    Israel: Welcome to the land of criminals and bad drivers

    The US underpins Israel’s unenviable record of traffic accidents by warning – accurately – that “aggressive driving is commonplace and that many drivers fail to maintain safe following distances or signal before changing lanes…” Australia warns that residents “may stone your car” if you drive it into ultra-orthodox Jewish neighbourhoods during the Sabbath.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-welcome-to-the-land-of-criminals-and-bad-drivers-8101165.html

  100. @Daniel Chieh

    A short distance from my office, road crews have been continuously tearing up and re-patching the same intersection for the last 10 years. I kid you not. I have no idea what they’re doing there but whatever it is, it took less time to put a man on the Moon. The difference between the USA and China c. 2018, summed up right there

    The only consolation is that back in 2010 the road crews were uniformly Mexican. Now they are almost all White.

    • Replies: @Truth
  101. Yan Shen says:
    @niteranger

    The Leiden rankings are based on total number of top 10% cited papers published, but yes this is still to some extent a measure of quantity given that typically East Asian universities have a lower percentage of all published papers which end up in the top 10%.

  102. Yan Shen says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Regarding Chinese philosophy, Hegel famously commented that Confucius was “only a man who has a certain amount of practical and worldly wisdom- one with whom there is no speculative philosophy”, suggesting that perhaps it would’ve been better for his reputation if his teachings had never been translated to begin with. Perhaps this isn’t uh too surprising given that even by Western standards Hegel was considered a notoriously difficult to read meta-physician…

    https://books.google.com/books?id=bATIDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hegel+confucius+no+speculative+philosophy&source=bl&ots=3hBO6SX8V6&sig=-lmbweZxGQqfkQ0-DsEADs5kBSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDo92Lh9bZAhUhqFQKHf9rAusQ6AEISjAG#v=onepage&q=hegel%20confucius%20no%20speculative%20philosophy&f=false

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  103. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Bardon Kaldian

    A lot of debate over whether Einstein deserves primary credit for either special or general relativity.

  104. Yan Shen says:
    @j2

    Sure so there are two lines of argumentation. One suggests that historically contingent institutional factors heavily influence a group of people in terms of what they choose to specialize in. The other line of reasoning states that sans obvious barriers like a Cultural Revolution, people inevitably end up gravitating towards what they have a natural affinity for. It’s your standard arrow of causation question. Was Africa poor because it was colonized or was the reason that Africa was colonized to begin with because it was poor and didn’t have its act together.

    I think the former line of reasoning may have been more valid before the modern era. My argument is that increasingly we’re beginning to see people gravitate towards what they’re naturally good at!

    • Replies: @j2
  105. TT says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Or the Chinese invention of gunpowder which they couldn’t conceive a better purpose for than making pretty colorful lights.

    Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?

    • Replies: @JSM
    , @Realist
  106. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @jim jones

    Yeh, you forget all the best war machines for mass killing & destruction of innocents. Moderate good Terrorists..false flags 911, presstitute fake news propaganda machines, financial scam,….Monsanto’s herbicide & GMO toxic food, Orange agent, Aids, …. What a wonder endless list of invention for mankind. Still got a nuclear fission & fusion bombs for fireworks to go with, so proud for the civilization improvements.

    • Replies: @Realist
  107. j2 says:
    @Yan Shen

    You write a generic answer missing both of my points, but let me take only the second.

    My second point was: If we talk about IQ profile, it may be a result of character or other issues, which are largely genetically determined, but are not IQ related.

    That is, Africans, Jews and probably Mediterraneans have stronger verbal IQ than spatial IQ.
    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while
    people of the North are more introverted.

    What supports this is that only 4-5% of IQ variation has so far been explained by IQ genes, while heritability is 40-80%. So, it may not be direct heritability of IQ but heritability of traits leading to IQ. Likewise, IQ is positively correlated with the brain size, but only weakly: women have much smaller brains and almost the same IQ. This is understandable if most of heritable IQ is not directly inherited by IQ genes.

    This makes a difference, because what you say are the natural strengths are natural strengths only in the situation as it is now. Chinese, of Finns, may actually have as high verbal IQ as Mediterraneas, but it cannot be expressed in the same way. It may be possible to express it in another way. To make this clearer: you may not be able to express verbal IQ in oral tasks and yet manage in written, it is the same IQ but not the same expression.

    I do not think the world will develop to the direction you suggest: that East Asians will dominate mathematical topics and South Asians (is it Jews?) dominate verbal topics. What we see now is not a natural development. It is globalization run by a small group of people who want to reach certain goals. They have to be stopped at some point. Then the world develops differently. I think it will be more local, less global. If more local, there is less monopolization of topics.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  108. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    East Asians know what fill their stomach. Get thing done, and sell it for something in return. So they go for what required for manufacturing practical thing.

    West whites after filling their stomach, spent their time day dreaming, conspire, plan, talking, trying to sell ideas. They come out with financial investment, Wall Street, banking, facebook, Google…leaving their manufacturing in dust.

    We shall see who go hungry eventually.

  109. I am unsure that Feynman’s (or other lopsided geniuses’) lack of verbal competence relative to his scientific competence is due to intelligence imbalance per se’. In Feynman’s case, I believe he was just completely uninterested in the verbal half of intelligence/learning. I think he spent 99% or so of his waking hours, and alot of the non-waking hours, thinking about math and physics problems. His divorce from his 2nd wife was allegedly due to this trait, at least in large part. Even pounding on a drum was a scientific endeavor to him.

    OTOH, his colloquial writings and speeches were accessible and entertaining, surely showing some verbal ability.

  110. TT says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    Who would want to be Columbus, or Magellan, oceans are terrifying a taste of the infinity we live in – yet they sailed through these navigators of the infinite – which no other culture did – these Chinese bots didn’t even discover the giant continent sized country Australia – right under there asses – yet it took a Captain Cook to discover something under this clone army asses.

    Using the map drawn by Ming Dynasty Zhenghe, Columbus, Magenan navigated the oceans, and Cook discovered the land shown in the ancient map. There, the Anglosaxon whites scream, we found it, the Chinese map is correct. Off they load their criminals there, killing the native aborigines like pests and colonized the continent with criminals. They found the mongrel dogs left by Zhenghe for probing the swarmy land toxic gas, gave it a mighty name Tasmania Tiger,..bark bark..their tiger roar.

    Now the jackal is proudly howling here, we found it, we found it, the Chinese map is correct. Right under their ass we stole it from the aborigines that they left them in peace for many hundreds years. Our DNA is Viking, wherever we landed, blood flow, fire burnt, men we killed, women we rape, treasures we robbed, land we occupied. Howl.. howl…

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  111. Truth says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    . I have no idea what they’re doing there but whatever it is, it took less time to put a man on the Moon

    .

    It’s taken 6,000 years to do that, and we ain’t done it yet.

  112. TT says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    East Asians are a bunch of high IQ clones, they are the human approximation of BOTs there’s no metaphysics in their souls – nothing at all – their religion which they don’t now have came from India – Buddhism – which doesn’t exist now – bunch of money grubbing bots they are close to being total machines – beware of these bots UNZ commenteriat. They are the closest approximation to human machines – no metaphysics in their souls.

    When we degenerate, our IQ go subpar, we cried the better ones are Bot. Not knowing Buddhism though almost disappear in their original India land ruined by Hindu, they flourish in the world, in Buddhist countries Thailand, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Laos, and in Asia they blossom. Even western countries wise men are tasting its sweet dews. The frog below cannot taste the sweetness of flower pollens, but distant butterfly & bees come gather them.

    The jackal sore in its ass, with subpar IQ, is howling…. they are high IQ clones, we are retard… howl…howl…

  113. Realist says:

    “Richard Feynman is legendary not only for his contributions as a theoretical physicist but also for his supposedly modest IQ of 125.”

    While an IQ of 125 may be modest for a theoretical physicist. It is certainly not modest for the general population . An IQ of 100 would be modest for the general population..

  114. @Anonymous

    “Anyone living somewhere with a large Asian population learns to recognize the hate-fact that Asian women in these relationships generally range from ugly to remarkably ugly”

    I guess you have to tell yourself that to feel better but in fact the ugly, dorky Asian girls end up with ugly, dorky Asian guys. The hot Asian girls prefer White men.

    Agree with regard to blacks though. Only the lowest, most desperate white women go dark.

    I do see, at least where I live, quality White women with Asian guys and that’s no problem.

    • Replies: @myself
  115. AaronB says:

    I’m just waiting for malla and denk to show up so the real entertainment can begin.

    • Replies: @TT
    , @wayfarer
    , @Daniel Chieh
  116. Realist says:
    @Anon

    Aids was invented???

    • Replies: @TT
    , @Peripatetic commenter
  117. Realist says:
    @bjondo

    The only item on the list that could be considered found would be antibiotics.

    • Replies: @TT
  118. JSM says:
    @TT

    but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment.

    Right. We used that gunpowder to clear out the Indians so we could build a First World country for the Chinese to move into and then presume to tell us what.

  119. TT says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    Never able to understand a single word of Chinese or Indian languages and their thoughts, the fool declared their 5,000yrs civilization simply cannot withstand the comparison with our few hundred years Western tradition. See, our Effel tower is taller than the Egyptian pyramids, our Trumps border wall will be longer than the China Great Wall, our White House is more modern than India Taj Maha.

    What is Yiching, Taoism, Taodejing, Confucianism, Buddhism, Sun Tze Arts of War, Houheixue, Mengzi, Baijia, …. Vedas, Ayurveda, Hinduism, India philosophy, Buddhism,…i know not a single but it must be worst than what i can read in English Western books. Even thousands year old of Chinese astrology record that shown solar system earth is round & revolving around the sun, cannot compare with our great Galileo discovery that got himself killed.

    We alone are the most majestic, if we cover our own eyes no one can see us.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  120. TT says:
    @AaronB

    Malla dissappear for some time already, but Denk will be here soon.

    • Replies: @denk
  121. Realist says:
    @TT

    “Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?”

    Gunpowder hasn’t been used as a practical explosive for over one hundred years.

    “….greedy West stolen it to…”

    What the hell is that?

    • Replies: @TT
  122. RudyM says:
    @j2

    It’s news to me that introversion correlates with weaker verbal skills. Why so many exceptions among writers?

    • Replies: @j2
  123. wayfarer says:
    @AaronB

    Be careful what you wish for.

    If denk shows up to this thread, he’ll own it.

    Just jokin’ denk.

  124. @Truth

    “You and him fight” only work on the simple-minded.

  125. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, “the same” (I won’t even address the field of experimental physics).

    In very broad and generalization sense – it is usually said that you have to be a lot smarter or more talented to reach the same professional level in theoretical physics, than in most every other fields of mathematics. And with my very brief, superficial, but painful, acquaintance with subject (physics), I can believe these sayings.

  126. @Truth

    Exactly!!! Alden is a degenerate RCCer. No Asians/blacks/Jews in the West. We Caucasians/Europeans did just fine without these races.

  127. Dmitry says:
    @TT

    There’s hardly any even most basic maths in the supposed ‘maths’ PISA exams. The whole thing is a bit of a joke.

    • Replies: @TT
  128. Dmitry says:
    @j2

    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

    Many (or even most) of the best scientists from the rest of the world (non-US), are working in US universities anyway. The simple result of salary disparity which is allowing US universities to suck up talent from the rest of the world.

    • Replies: @TT
  129. TT says:
    @anonymous

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.

    I wonder if this is due to the difficulty of the Chinese writing system? Taiwan also scored near China in reading, yet Korea and Japan scored higher, and Singapore and Hong Kong were the two highest scoring countries.

    The Chinese almost read a foreign language (English) as bad as American…LOL. Shanghai actually scored No.1(2010) & likely again 2015, but after join up with other provinces, China rating goes down near US. Another factor quoted was the test conducted with computer instead of writen paper, some rural students aren’t acquainted/ experienced with computer.

    And majority Chinese ethnic Singapore & HK(China) beat all Englishing speaking natives, even Taiwan & Macau, Japan, Korea, EU are above US & UK. Then the Chinese & East Asians Maths & Science are mile ahead. The Chinese & East Asians must have cheated. The EU must have cheated. So Mr Roberts so kind must ask OECD to investigate.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  130. TT says:
    @Realist

    Otherwise Singapore should be recognized for invented iodine as antiseptic.:)

  131. Dmitry says:
    @j2

    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while

    This comment reaches a level of ridiculousness and reductio ad absurdum, where reality more or less completely disproves the generalizations. It is not difficult to point out that Northern Europe has produced by far the greatest and most complex works of literature in human history, with the pinnacle achieved in Russian language – and that probably East Asia is not far behind (Tale of Genji, written by a Japanese noblewoman in 11th century, is considered the world’s first novel). While in visual/spatial arts, the most successful and high-achieving countries were those three Latin countries of Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, and France).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @j2
  132. Danand says:

    Yan, thanks for making the effort to generate and share this. I think most would agree that the “components that make up intellect” are widely divergent amongst groups and certainly individuals. But it’s a tough argument that in the aggregate, over the broad spectrum of peoples past and present, they are very far divorced. Even if they were, the historical evidence for specific area/realm intellect importance is limited (IE – does it matter in the wider whole that a group is more a little more gifted in one area, when a little lacking in others?). Overall balanced intellect, and the traits that tend to come with it; introspection, empathy, conscientiousness, … all mater.

    History suggests future. Charles Murrays The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950 & Francis Fukuyamas Trust are amongst the many condensations which make it plainly obvious that “the right stuff”, for lack of better termage, is what it takes to be most effectively dominant.

  133. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    Although with disclaimer I have no professional background in philosophy, let alone knowledge of the relevant languages – many great philosophers consider that Ancient Indian philosophy is one of the most respected traditions and some famous philosophers have believed it to be even more profound than Ancient Greek tradition. To discount the Indian philosophy tradition, which was praised by leading philosophers like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche – it seems a very tenuous position.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  134. Krzys says:

    I have one doubt about natural east asian quantitative intelligence as opposed to certain immigration filter. Why, despite all the quantitative talent, is China so poorly represented under Fields medalists?

  135. TT says:
    @Realist

    Yes, invented by the homosexual gays of whoever want to claim Patent in West. And spread in Africa through the US vaccines program with shared needles. Brought to Asia by the West “whoremonger” & paedophiles as gifts Now marketing by US to whole world as a glorified trendy new lifestyle, LBGT for everyone including Christians & Catholics too.

    Pharmaceutical giants are laughing to the banks, who said globalization not favourable for US.

  136. TT says:
    @Dmitry

    Also the available research fund, best facilities, and available peer talents that make the best genius able to fulfil his dream research.

    After East Asia join up and provide better conditions, then the wave will roll back. The research fund is drying up in US, too much competition for too little fund. China is providing lavishly, so go the Austrian Quantum technology to China.

  137. @TT

    cannot compare with our great Galileo discovery that got himself killed.

    You may wish to inform yourself concerning certain facts of Galileo’s trial and house arrest, beginning with 1) He was never killed.

    You truly are a butt-picking idiot, whoever you are. And yes, Western philosophy has a style history and a depth of expression and creative force to which the East can show no parallel. There really isn’t anything wrong with admitting this, so your attempt to obscure this rather obvious point does not reflect very well upon you.

    • Replies: @TT
  138. Dmitry says:

    I find the beginning of Yan’s essay, where he writes about Feynmann’s low verbal score to be very interesting. But the conclusion he goes on to is not supported, and this is where I skipped the rest of the text.

    So it seems that Feynmann could not spell and made grammatical mistakes, which would explain how he got a low score.

    But if you watch the Feynmann videos on YouTube, it is clear he is able to express himself very intelligently in a verbal way.

    He seems far above in this area, what most mathematicians you go to lectures at university are like (sometimes a high level research, is then so disappointing in their speech).

    The conclusion is not that he has some divergence between his famous maths skills, and his ability to express himself verbally. But rather, that the IQ tests themselves are a poor measure of his abilities. The IQ tests penalize people who cannot spell or use correctly grammar, or have a less wide range of vocabulary. But none of those things are really very relevant.

    The reasonable conclusion was that Feynmann scored low in this area because of his poor writing/spelling/grammar/vocabulary. But that doesn’t support the idea that he was verbally unintelligent. It just shows that the ‘IQ’ tests have a bad ‘signal-to-noise ratio’, at least with this kind of person.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  139. TT says:
    @Dmitry

    Who cares, get the score, joint the best Ivy, yoo… the future is bright & life is good. Green card is automatic, if not, a good research job back home or anywhere your choice. If Pisa isn’t working, these students with high pisa score won’t graduate from Ivry with top result.

    See how Spore, HK, Asians perfected the scoring? A test skewed towards Western education system, sure OECD can do better than non English native Asian. Alas…sinking year after year, so they import more refugees as remedy.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  140. @AaronB

    You need Singh to really round out the comments, to be honest. If your posts don’t go into long-winded rambles about sati and beheading infidels, really, what’s the point of writing at all?

    • LOL: Talha
  141. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    For example, I find his accent and grammar (I guess he makes a lot of grammatical mistakes) is quite difficult to understand. So combined with his terrible spelling ability and poor vocabulary, that is why he got a low score in the verbal tests. Yet at the same time, it is clear he very intelligent verbally. What this shows is the inadequacy of the tests for this kind of person, not that he had some kind of divergence of intelligence.

    • Agree: CanSpeccy
  142. TT says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The one need to call himself intelligence is usually very suspicious.

    You may wish to inform yourself concerning certain facts of Galileo’s trial and house arrest, beginning with 1) He was never killed.

    Oops sorry. Blame my childhood story book printed in West. If i have broad band access & time, i will dig out 2000yrs ago China astrologist already discovered solar system in complete details, mass of sun & planets, their orbit radius, and how Pie was derived to 10 decimal places using a string tied to two sharp pins to draw perfect circle, dissect to 1024 equal parts. Abacus wasn’t invented yet. And how he come out with all the calculus… ooh…West invented calculus. LoL.

    Galileo was found “vehemently suspect of heresy,” namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to “abjure, curse and detest” those opinions.[50]
    He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
    His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52]

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  143. @Dmitry

    This comment reaches a level of ridiculousness and reductio ad absurdum, where reality more or less completely disproves the generalizations.

    To be honest, this is the way that I often feel about IQ arguments in general. The more that I study about the brain, the more silly it seems that a simple number be more than the most basic measurement of overall ability.

  144. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @TT

    Ming Dynasty [admiral] Zhenghe …

    Our DNA is Viking,

    Sadly for the great admiral and world explorer Zheng He, Chinese custom had rendered him quite unable to leave behind any trace of his DNA in Africa. Zheng He had been castrated as a boy and sold to serve as a palace eunuch.

  145. Dmitry says:
    @TT

    Who cares, get the score, joint the best Ivy, yoo… the future is bright & life is good. Green card is automatic, if not, a good research job back home or anywhere your choice. If Pisa isn’t working, these students with high pisa score won’t graduate from Ivry with top result.

    See how Spore, HK, Asians perfected the scoring? A test skewed towards Western education system, sure OECD can do better than non English native Asian. Alas…sinking year after year, so they import more refugees as remedy.

    While I agree completely with philosophy of life espoused in your first sentence, the point still remains that PISA ‘maths exam’ does not contain maths. You can download a copy of the exam and see it for yourself.

    The problem is partly as it is testing kids at 15, before most youth begin to learn maths. It’s like testing kids for tennis skills, by how well they can bounce a ball up and down. Well… you need to wait until they can actually play tennis, and then the results might be quite surprising (people that sucked at bouncing a ball, might surprise you after they start actually learning real tennis).

  146. @Realist

    Well, we are reliably informed that “they wud be kangs” but for the dastardly white man and their CIA inventing AIDs etc.

  147. Why did the Chinese leave it until the late 20th century to start becoming a science powerhouse?

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  148. Dmitry says:
    @Dr. Doom

    Steve Sailer is a Math Whiz

    He’s obviously the very talented and witty writer (who is great fun to read), but he doesn’t know how to basic statistics.

  149. TT says:
    @Realist

    Actually ancient China already used gun powder for full range of weapons including flamethrowers, rockets, bombs, and mines, before inventing guns as a projectile weapon. But Chinese used it for defending against Mongols. Mongols used it to invade Japan. European used it to invade China & the world.

    Tell that to stan d mute, troll always used funny handle.

    Wikipedia

    The Chinese “Wu Ching Tsung Yao”, written by Tseng Kung-Liang in 1044, provides encyclopedia references to a variety of mixtures which included petrochemicals, as well as garlic and honey. A slow match for flame throwing mechanisms using the siphon principle and for fireworks and rockets are mentioned. Academics argue the Chinese wasted little time in applying gunpowder to warfare, and they produced a variety of gunpowder weapons, including flamethrowers, rockets, bombs, and mines, before inventing guns as a projectile weapon.[21]

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  150. @TT

    troll always used funny handle

    1,160 comments here and 170,000+ words. Nearly all have been grammatically correct. To my knowledge Confucius here is first to accuse me of being a Troll. How ironic eh? I enjoyed how much he contributed by ignoring (failing to comprehend) the point made and instead focused on China’s vast military power (ignoring that 50K British soldiers spanked the country into opiate somnolence), but then we Trolls are rather easily amused aren’t we? At least we don’t play “pick up sticks” (a child’s game) or stare at coffee grounds seeking wisdom.

    And with that, plus Unz’ white man’s magic of “commenters to ignore” – Sayonara. (Yeah, out of kindness I didn’t mention what the Japanese did to his weak ass ancestors)

    • Replies: @TT
  151. @Peripatetic commenter

    Why did the Chinese leave it until the late 20th century to start becoming a science powerhouse?

    Too busy chasing the dragon? Murdering 50,000,000 of their own people? Getting asses handed to them by Brits in sailboats? Getting asses handed to them by puny Japan? Hiding behind walls? Waiting for Nixon? Waiting for Russia to teach them how? Destroying infrastructure to build backyard steel furnaces? Reading tea leaves? Playing sticks of wisdom? Poking each other with small needles and calling it medicine?

    All the above? At least they kept busy right?

  152. With Chinese IQ so high, why are white nationalists still so blase about the China threat?

    Would love to see more recently updated information on Indian IQ trends.

    redpillindian.blogspot.com

  153. myself says:
    @Thought Criminal

    On point 2) “No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times”.

    Well, if you count modern times as being from the last few centuries, say 1500 AD to the present, well that is obvious as the East Asians themselves fully admit and concede. There is a good reason that “modern times” coincides with the era of “Western Dominance”. It is fair to say that Modern Times = Western Era.
    East Asia was certainly, and self-admittedly, held back by archaic and outdated systems of thought – or to put it another way, by a very backward culture. In fact, the very culture they themselves have seen fit to discard, for better or worse.

    “Cultural Appropriation” of the White Man’s ideas, of you will.

    Also point 2) “In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India.”

    No, respectfully disagree on this point. I don’t know about generalized East Asians, but there was precious little mathematical exchange between China and India, and still less between China and Western Eurasia, at least until about 200 AD. Even from that point, the borrowing of ideas was scant. It was actually with the arrival of the Jesuit missionaries, in the 16th century, that the ideas of “modern Western mathematics”, clearly superior ones, fairly deluged China and all of East Asia.

    Essentially, China developed mathematics independently – until overtaken by the modern era.

    On point 4) “China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation.”

    Precisely because no culture ANYWHERE had ANY “science” of which to speak prior to about 1500, not even its eventual developers, the cultures of NorthWestern Europe. (Note, nor ALL of Europe, we are talking a very small, specific group of cultures within Europe). The ancient Greeks and Romans did not have “modern science” for example – they had inquiry and structured thought, and so did some other classical cultures.

    On point 3) “East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc”

    I would have to agree, but I must point out the obvious, and that is while engaging in wide-ranging, deep and rigorous examination of a mind-boggling range of subjects, the Chinese in particular, as a sort of “progenitor” civilization to the rest of Eastern Eurasia, have often begun from very different starting assumptions, and so have come to startlingly different conclusions and promulgated very different paradigms and views and nuances from those in Southern and Western Eurasia/North Africa.

    Conclusions and paradigms that often seem not merely “foreign”, but rather downright “alien” to the Western mind.

    As a side note, the directions of inquiry and conclusions of Subcontinental Indian thinkers are also quite alien to those from outside South Asia.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  154. myself says:
    @Stan d Mute

    There may very well be something to this concept of closer East Asian IQ clustering than that of Whites and Indians, but I’ve never yet seen or encountered a proper study saying so.

    In contrast, the Asian general IQ and math/verbal split have been noted for some time by researchers, none of whom have yet mentioned an IQ clustering phenomenon.

    Perhaps the lesser Asian creativity is not down to IQ genetics, but the cultural paradigm of conformity instead?

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  155. myself says:
    @JSM

    There is zero doubt in anyone’s mind that the last 500 years have belonged to the West.

    Asians themselves say this very thing. It’s their acceptance of this fact, instead of bitching and moaning, that’s allowed them to develop.

    But we shouldn’t get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn’t dominate the last 5,000 years.

    And our current dominance is . . . looking fragile.

    • Replies: @JSM
    , @Stan d Mute
  156. Svigor says:

    Kato! Not today, Kato!

  157. JSM says:
    @myself

    Aye.
    And allowing inscrutable Asians into our universities and industries where they can steal military and industrial secrets to take back home to the Chicom central committee is…looking foolheaded as anything could possibly be.

  158. @myself

    Perhaps the lesser Asian creativity is not down to IQ genetics, but the cultural paradigm of conformity instead?

    How does East Asian conformity differ from European herd mentality (as exemplified by say Puritanism or SJWism)? I may be wrong on the clustering toward the mean, I think I have seen it studied and confirmed, and it fits what I see with my lying eyes, but maybe not. Anyway, my goal was to provoke more thought and I’m glad to see I succeeded in at least one mind. Culture is no doubt a big factor, but my question is always, “is race a social construct or is society a racial construct?” Which way does the arrow of causation point truly?

  159. myself says:
    @Thought Criminal

    I would agree.

    At the very core of the Chinese view of the cosmos, if you drill down deep enough, is the concept that ANY idea, system, belief, philosophy, or set of actions, if pushed TOO FAR, will inevitably give rise to an opposing principle which will force it back into harmony with the larger universe. Man has agency, but the Universe (“Reality” if you will) is the ultimate arbiter. One does not go against Reality.

    In this view, though Man’s nature is to have agency, have will and to strive, still the final result is not entirely his to determine, only partially so. His actions are his own, the outcome may not be – and this is no cause for guilt or shame. “No blame if one acts from righteousness”, as put in the YiJing.

    I like your depiction of Chinese civilization – always on the SPECTRUM of barbarism/high civilization/decadence – a spectrum, NEVER an end-point!

    For to reach ascension, “apotheosis” is to stagnate, and therefore to go into an oblivion from which nothing, no one, no race, people or civilization can recover! (No civilization indeed has ever recovered from its demise – where now are Memphis, Thebes, Mohenjo-Daro, Athens, Rome or Byzantium?)

    Never descending into hell (and oblivion), nor ever ascending to heaven (and oblivion), instead seeing the universe as infinite and eternal, and mortal man’s journey within it as infinite and eternal as well.

    That is the core idea of Chinese civilization, and it perhaps pre-dates all other schools of thought in China.

    Now, is this a good or even useful way of being? Hell if I know.

  160. wayfarer says:

    “AI Expert Claims Plumbers and Electricians Will Be Last to Get Replaced by Robots”

    source: https://interestingengineering.com/ai-expert-claims-plumbers-and-electricians-will-be-last-to-get-replaced-by-robots

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  161. TT says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Sorry mistaken you as troll, shot the wrong guy. You make a gd damn pt, those assholes Qing dynasty.. Your handle do look funny isnt it? Common, don’t be petty, we got calling names by others too.

  162. bjondo says:

    Are the major miseries and pointless, worthless inventions in life gifts of the high IQ possessors?

    Seems most high IQ possessors spend, waste tax dollars inventing corrections to inventions of other high IQ possessors. A process that goes on for eternity.

    How is carpentry, plumbing, farming IQ measured.

    Who is more valuable for a good, decent life: the Feynmans, the Wolfowitzs, the Robert Rubins or good carpenters/plumbers/potato growers.

    Could Einstein find his way out of a bathroom stall? Are his plagiarisms more valuable to the enjoyment of daily life than the bagel, a food item his supposedly high IQ cult stole and claim as its own.

    IQ testing is probably most useful for corralling in those who should be weeded out.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  163. Svigor says:

    There is zero doubt in anyone’s mind that the last 500 years have belonged to the West.

    Asians themselves say this very thing. It’s their acceptance of this fact, instead of bitching and moaning, that’s allowed them to develop.

    But we shouldn’t get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn’t dominate the last 5,000 years.

    And our current dominance is . . . looking fragile.

    I don’t care about dominance.

    Dominance is a relative thing; if Bob has 1 billion and Tom has 100 million, Bob has “dominance.” If Tom makes another billion dollars, he now has “dominance.” But WGAF, except people obsessed with such things?* Both men are wealthy far beyond their needs. Tom is no poorer for having less than Bob, Bob is no richer for having more than Tom, and vice-versa.

    Sure, fine, if people need national dominance to motivate them to give their best, great, more power to you. I for one don’t believe in the national keep up with the Joneses thing. I believe in setting our national goals and achieving them.

    There are over a billion Chinese in China alone. ONE WOULD BLOODY WELL HOPE A COUNTRY WITH A POPULATION THAT BIG, WITH A MEAN IQ HIGHER THAN THE EUROPEAN MEAN, COULD SURPASS THE USA IN GDP. We’ve only got like 200m or so white people living in this country, and they have to drag a bunch of NAMs over the finish line.

    *I cite the western record defensively, as a way of telling genocidaires to FUCK OFF; we don’t need your “cognitively elite” people. Otherwise ICGAF.

    ***

    I hope China gives us a real run for our money, especially in important fields like medicine, genetics, alternative energy, space exploration, etc. The innovations they create will benefit all mankind; same way Jews benefit from von Braun’s work.

  164. utu says:

    IQ or the Math/Verbal Split?

    False alternative. The answer: neither.

    Japan, China, Korea are at the point they have all what it takes to lead. The world will survive and smoothly will progress even if EU and the US are wiped out form the surface of the Earth. They do not need West anymore.

    • Replies: @Truth
  165. @myself

    But we shouldn’t get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn’t dominate the last 5,000 years.

    Yes … and No. The game is far from over. But while we discovered, conquered, and tamed the planet, they had their asses handed to them by two puny little islands and built a wall to hide behind while they played games and smoked opium. Now, first with Russia’s help and later with ours, they’re indeed catching up and may well soon eclipse us. We seem more fanatically determined to genocide ourselves than anything else at this point. My best practices solution is to shamelessly steal from one another what the other does best. If the game requires a loser, let it be those who’ve contributed nothing whatsoever to the betterment of our species or even of their own subspecies (I needn’t name them). We still have much to learn from East Asia particularly and they still have much to learn from us. We are, even together, a very long way from understanding our Universe.

  166. @wayfarer

    I agree – fields that have a lot of variance especially with legacy systems and requiring personal judgment will be the hardest to automate. I actually don’t think we will see “joblessness” from AI anytime soon; the greater concern is simply acceleration of current trends of big data centralizing information in a manner which was previously impossible.

  167. @bjondo

    How is carpentry, plumbing, farming IQ measured.

    I dunno, do you enjoy metallurgy of your piping system, the availability of wood through complex logistics channels or the ready availability of food thanks to massive, optimized agricultural projects?

    Its easy to knock on the many flaws of modernity but it has objective, measurable benefits to society as well, and in introducing the internet, arguably has created an entire new aspect of reality. In doing so, too, we may end up creating our replacements but isn’t that the ultimate goal for all life? Is it so terrible to be Chronos, if we are to bring about Zeus?

    • Replies: @wayfarer
  168. myself says:
    @AaronB

    According to the Chinese traditional view, it’s the West and not the Rest that’s been more in harmony and more aligned with the flows of the Universe these last 500 years, hence the over-all material and even philosophical and artistic success of the West.

    To take that further, as China gradually regains its harmony and equilibrium with the demands of history (history as outward expression of the eternal cosmic flow – Taoist thought), so it experiences significant advance.

    The purported malaise of the West, the thinking goes, is due to having become misaligned with the Universe in the last few decades, but has nothing to do with China – the West is on its own trajectory, whatever that may be.

    As for Japan, they had a winning formula, suitable for a specific era, but then they became hide-bound and unwilling to change, they stuck with their tried and true formula. This is a mistake that those I’ve spoken to in China are all to conscious to avoid.

    One observation, though, and I think a valid one.

    Japan has not, in recent times, initiated major change from within. The Meiji reforms were a reaction to the West, while the post-WW2 era was again a reaction to defeat at Allied hands. Brilliant reactions to be sure.

    In contrast, while China discarded the Imperial system in response to the needs of modernity, it also had a huge Civil War that destroyed the old social order and gave extreme Communists control. Then it underwent, again from within, the Reform and Opening Era which discredited and removed the ideologues from power.

    Japan’s greater success in modernizing means it has not had the revolutions found necessary by China. On the other hand, in spite of many failures, China has shown itself more willing to undergo self-initiated radical change.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  169. I don’t see a general decline in Continental European engineering talent. The countries that have fallen behind in this area are the Anglo nations which have neglected their manufacturing sectors and slashed tariffs. Europe is well up there in terms of designing and manufacturing machine tools, heavy machinery, agricultural equipment, boats, weapons systems, etc. Japan probably leads the world in building affordable, reliable cars but Europe is still very competitive in producing trucks, vans and innovative luxury cars.

    However, you’re probably right that the West is falling behind in terms of designing and manufacturing electronic hardware. Consumer electronics are now totally dominated by East Asia and otherwise well-designed European cars are often let down by unreliable electronics.

  170. bjondo says:

    I dunno, do you enjoy metallurgy of your piping system, the availability of wood through complex logistics channels or the ready availability of food thanks to massive, optimized agricultural projects?

    Well, the wood is from a simple delivery system – nearby forest and the massive, optimized ag projects with the various high IQ scientists from Monsanto et al produces bountiful tonnage of trash food stuffs. Also reduces variety.

    Its easy to knock on the many flaws of modernity but it has objective, measurable benefits to society as well, and in introducing the internet, arguably has created an entire new aspect of reality.

    The internet as a provider of info and communication hidden by high IQ sorts is nice but replacing social interaction is not and life was very nice without.

    In doing so, too, we may end up creating our replacements but isn’t that the ultimate goal for all life? Is it so terrible to be Chronos, if we are to bring about Zeus?

    Foolish.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  171. @bjondo

    You can always opt out to a wonderful world of 10-30% infant mortality. Perhaps the clearest indication of where humanity is headed is the fact that its not force that keeps this acceleration forward; this is what individuals choose en masse. No one insisted that we all have a smartphone which now can track us nearly 24/7 – yet its adoption has been near universal.

    Humanity has certain trends. These are, despite what we may like to think, predictable. And machines are much, much better at predictive analysis than any human has ever been.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  172. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Exactly, let them have their time at the material apex; then they can decide whether they like it there or not. We can have a bunch of new inventions with original names in Mandarin. We will benefit from their inventions; well, assuming they don’t create clouds of AI-driven killer nanobots.

    I was just telling a brother what a shame it is that “modern” architecture has started springing up in China’s major cities – so ugly and soulless compared to the classical Chinese architecture with its rich and unique style.

    Interesting thread.

    Peace.

  173. wayfarer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    A skilled carpenter, is a skilled geometer.

    Treatise on the design and construction of an hydraulic flute playing machine. The treatise is attributed to ‘Apollonius the carpenter and geometer (أبلنيوس النجار الهندسي)’, who some have identified.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Apollonius-of-Perga

    https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100023698323.0×000003

    • Replies: @wayfarer
  174. myself says:
    @Johnny Smoggins

    Asian men in Asia don’t make a big deal of local Asian women who “go white.”

    I think because of 2 factors:

    1) The top-tier local Asian women, like top-tier women everywhere, only want to go with the top-tier men of their own race.
    You see some good-looking local girls with white men, but the real knock-outs are always with their own kind. It’s about genetic promulgation (reproductive success, not really sex) and social status for them and their kids. Since it’s Asia, they naturally gravitate to their own men.

    2) Well, there’s plenty more where she came from! If the white man wants some, it’s not going to dent the supply one bit.

    • Replies: @Truth
  175. Yan Shen says:
    @AaronB

    My point was less that any particular group would necessarily come out on top and more that different groups of people would end up specializing in areas where they were naturally inclined, once barriers were increasingly removed.

    Although I do argue for the primacy of mathematical over verbal ability, predicting that the Anglosphere will remain the overall leader in the life sciences and medicine isn’t exactly an insignificant thing.

    I do think that hardware trumps software and that manufacturing trumps services, but that’s for a uh follow-up post perhaps.

    You describe my article as mythology written for the purposes of validation, but I mostly see myself as making a relatively conservative set of predictions rooted in HBD and backed up by clearly observable data points, such as the Leiden Rankings I cited, etc.

  176. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @TT

    US PISA Reading 2015

    https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_4f.asp

    Whites: 526
    Asians: 527

    US PISA Reading 2012

    https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2012/pisa2012highlights_5e_1.asp

    Whites: 519
    Asians: 550

    Asians don’t really seem to be at a disadvantage relative to whites on the reading test.

    • Replies: @TT
  177. myself says:

    All this philosophical discussion about the rising and falling of cultures and civilizations, and we have all collectively (including me) failed to point out something staring us in the face:

    In the recorded history of our human civilization, the past 5 centuries of total dominance by ONE dynamic culture, the “West”, is the aberration, not the norm.

    The overwhelming norm is the simultaneous dynamism and advance of SEVERAL cooperating/competing civilizations, each dynamic and vibrant, and all, albeit separately, advancing human society.

    There have been long historical periods in which all of Eurasia has been active and dynamic, plus North Africa, East Africa, and Central and South America.

    As for the Western period of ascendancy, my take is “Someone had to be first” – First to break into the age of modernity, first to develop science, first to question the staid ideas of the past. That someone was the West, and we have reaped the benefit.

    First, but not solely.

    Being first doesn’t mean that we would maintain an eternal monopoly on power and modernity. England was the first industrial nation, but did not remain the only such country. A good idea is eventually imbibed and internalized by the whole human race.

    Ditto for the useful ideas of Western Civilization. There’s a certain inevitability of Western ways being directly “appropriated” by the entire world.

    And if the West should “lose” its heretofore privileged place? What of it? What is wrong with being but one powerful race, among many? Are we less because others are more?

    Is the Universe zero-sum?

  178. Truth says:
    @Truth

    Well I think he claims a 160

  179. Truth says:
    @utu

    It had better happen quickly because none of them have children.

  180. Truth says:
    @myself

    Asian men in Asia don’t make a big deal of local Asian women who “go white.”

    This is not what I have read.

  181. @TT

    It was not about the sun, or the earth, the prestige of the Jesuits was at stake.
    The Jesuits were not at all interested in the solar system, or the flat earth

    Pietro Redondi, ´Galilei, ketter, De politieke machtsstrijd rond het proces tegen Galileo Galilei, 1633’, 1989, Amsterdam (Galileo eretico, 1983, 1989, Turin).

    ‘politieke machtsstrijd’ = political power struggle, ‘proces’ = trial, ‘ketter’ = heretic

  182. @Dmitry

    I am not “discounting” it. I’ve read great expositions of it authored by Radhakrishnan (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=B21E1496C0CDE537858B7E5AF99D9C4F ) & Dasgupta (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=7567AAE467409E9A3EA24D1DB4986946), along with scholarly works of Eliade, Coomarswamy et al. on various topics, and I’d say Indian thought is profound in metaphysics & narrow in most other areas. Unlike Greek & Western philosophy, it remained mostly an elaboration of religious scriptures, soaked in mythic metaphors & never got off as an independent field.

  183. @Yan Shen

    I don’t know whether you read it (at least partially), but I would recommend to anyone interested in Chinese thought monumental Wing Tsit Chan’s survey: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=A13880637E7E9F98EF712AE179E38891

    I know there are newer expositions (Van Norden etc), but this classic from 1960s remains my favorite.

  184. By the way-what about, perhaps, more profound differences between “East” and “West”? I don’t know whether this has been confirmed, but …..

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7882-westerners-and-easterners-see-the-world-differently/


    Westerners and Easterners see the world differently

    Chinese and American people see the world differently – literally. While Americans focus on the central objects of photographs, Chinese individuals pay more attention to the image as a whole, according to psychologists at the University of Michigan, in Ann Arbor, US.

    “There is plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting that Western and East Asian people have contrasting world-views,” explains Richard Nisbett, who carried out the study. “Americans break things down analytically, focusing on putting objects into categories and working out what rules they should obey,” he says.

    By contrast, East Asians have a more holistic philosophy, looking at objects in relation to the whole. “Figuratively, Americans see things in black and white, while East Asians see more shades of grey,” says Nisbett. “We wanted to devise an experiment to see if that translated to a literal difference in what they actually see.”
    ……

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  185. bjondo says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    And machines are much, much better at predictive analysis than any human has ever been.

    Machines predicting rely how much on human manipulation, propaganda?

    Yes, infant mortality, the real heart string puller. Abortions are also infant mortality along with depleted uranium and vaccines and modern foods. Sometimes death, modern, high IQ-created deaths, comes slower and more painful and uglier.

    Opting out to the natural world of nature not a world created by high IQs of greed and self serving.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  186. j2 says: • Website
    @RudyM

    I see you are a bit sceptical, so let’s refer to James Thomson from the unz review

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lapps-finns-cold-winters-and/

    “These data suggest that the Sámi have the same profile that most people of the world have, i.e., they perform better on spatial than on verbal tests relative to the Caucasoid norm. Both groups are stronger on non-verbal than verbal skills, which might be expected of hunters searching for game in the landscape.”

    You can find by a small literature search confirmation that Blacks and Jews have stronger verbal IQ and weaker spatial IQ. I think is is true to descendants of Anatolian farmers and therefore in the Mediterranean countries. Above you have confirmation that in the North spatial IQ is stronger than verbal. Thomson finds this IQ profile the most common in the world, as East Asians also have this profile.

    There is no question of the fact that East Asians and North Europeans are more introverted, so there is then the correlation. A correlation does not need to mean causation, but in this case there may be a causal connection.

    Some commentary claimed that i make an absurd reasoning and argued, like this one, that verbal IQ of Northern Europeans cannot be lower than spatial since there are so many good writers from these
    populations. That does not invalidate the well-known fact of the IQ profile.

    Introverts make both good writers and good scientists. Even if the average IQ is more tilted to spatial, it does not mean that you cannot find verbally talented people from those countries. Verbal IQ increases from reading, not only from speaking, so you may find that many writers are introverts and have high verbal IQ.

    Counting literary achievements it may look like Northern Europe and East Asia have especially high verbal IQ, but it is a proven fact that these populations have in average weaker verbal IQ than spatial IQ. The verbal IQ is still high, as these populations have high IQ, but exceptional literary achievements do not imply anything of the average verbal IQ in the population.

    Especially, it does not invalidate the proposed argument (not proven) that the average verbal IQ may be lower because of introverted culture.

  187. j2 says:
    @Dmitry

    You may not mean the same population when you refer to Northern Europe. Russia is large and only the upper part is Northern Europe. I mean the most northern Europe and there the IQ profile is what I said it is. It is not ridiculous and ad absurdum, but a a fact known from IQ tests. Indeed, Russians from Carelia are genetically similar to the most northern European people and probably have similar IQ profile.

    There is no direct connection between average IQ profile of a population and exceptional achievements of the population.

    For more details read what I wrote to RudyM.

    BTW. I inherited a whole series of Russian writers and read all volumes. They are not really the pinnacle of human literature. War and Peace is just like kiosk literature, only longer, but Tolstoy was not Northern, the family moved from Chernigov to Moscow. That is Central-Eastern European.

  188. @bjondo

    The proof, as it might be, is in reality itself. There are societies that try to reject aspects of modernity and I researched some of them, but in the end, they basically die one way or another. Can you imagine a society that rejects computers, for example? And they exist in many places, where electronics are still expensive and outside of the reach of the majority. But then the elite use them, and it rapidly becomes both utilitarian as well as a status symbol and as price of access decreases, at least the entire next generation will pursue it. If denied locally, they will emigrate from any channel.

    In many ways, I think its like rejecting guns because, they have a negative effect on a caste-based society that relied on agility and strength. Dysgenic, even. So sure, you could try to pretend that guns don’t exist for awhile, but then some other society that used guns will force it upon you.

    All that ever matters is that what works. We no longer live in Max Weber’s “enchanted garden” of mystery and distance. Now every advantage is communicated worldwide, and any society that doesn’t embrace it falls behind, bleeds membership, and essentially dessicates. Unless you have a way to North Korea your society(with its attendant costs), then its impossible to avoid the changes wrought by technology upon the world and to be forced to play the Red Queen strategy.

    One can mourn what has passed but what is coming is as inevitable, and as unavoidable, as the heat death of the universe.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  189. @Bardon Kaldian

    Note that his argument was basically an extended version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis which has not been supported by modern research; in Richard Nisbett’s Geography of Thought, his tests found that Chinese-Americans thought as “analytically” as their European counterparts, and vice versa for European citizens who grew up their entire life in East Asia, which highly suggests the result of culture; his belief was that this was almost completely through language.

    • Replies: @Hacienda
  190. TT says:
    @anonymous

    Yes, in fact East Asians are occupying all top ranking in test skewed towards OECD edu system, while education power house US/UK/Aust all ranked lowly, what’s happening?

    Shanghai actually top 2012 for all three subjects again, as well as improving 2009 scores to 613 in maths, equivalent to 3 school years ahead of ave pupil.

    China’s participation in the 2012 test was limited to Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Macao as separate entities. In 2012, Shanghai participated for the second time, again topping the rankings in all three subjects, as well as improving scores in the subjects compared to the 2009 tests. Shanghai’s score of 613 in mathematics was 113 points above the average score, putting the performance of Shanghai pupils about 3 school years ahead of pupils in average countries. Educational experts debated to what degree this result reflected the quality of the general educational system in China, pointing out that Shanghai has greater wealth and better-paid teachers than the rest of China.[32] Hong Kong placed second in reading and science and third in maths.

    Is PISA becoming over emphasized on national education policies, esp in EAsia? And these same EAsians dominate IQ ranking again.

    PISA data have “come to increasingly shape, define and evaluate the key goals of the national / federal education system”.[7] This implies that those who set the PISA tests – e.g. in choosing the content to be assessed and not assessed – are in a position of considerable power to set the terms of the education debate, and to orient educational reform in many countries around the globe.[7]

    • Replies: @anonymous
  191. @myself

    In my opinion China kept the imperial system, as Russia kept the tsarist system.
    Just different names for the rulers.
    Cultures hardly change.
    As a Dutch politician said ‘France is a monarchy with an elected monarch, the Netherlands is a republic with a hereditary head of state’.
    Macron is nicknamed Jupiter.
    Does not Merkel behave as a Kaiser ?
    The USA, still run by a oligarchy of a few rich people, as when the Declaration was signed.
    Belgium, a mess, as a someone with that nationality said ‘Belgium, it does not exist’.
    Flemish and Wallonians still fighting each other.
    Spain, still under fascist rule, as we see in how Madrid behaves toward Barcelona, the Civil War relived.
    Italy resembles the medieval city state mess.
    And so on, and so forth.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  192. @jilles dykstra

    Basically, though with significant modifications.

  193. Hacienda says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Do you read Chinese? Chinese character reading seems to require a larger focus area than reading
    and English word. Reading English just requires skimming the tops of letters after fluency. It seems to me that a Chinese reader would have to scan up and down and sideways to comprehend a Chinese word even with fluency. Would that become a habit of the eyeball in seeing things? And is this why that it seems difficult to look a Chinese “straight in the eyes”?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  194. @Hacienda

    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English. And that’s possible, though it is interesting that some of the groupings in Dr. Nisbett’s study such as how the Japanese viewers tended to associate “rabbit” with “grass” and “chicken” with “seed” while his American group associated “rabbit” with “chicken” and “grass” with “seed.”

    Incidentaly, I’m reading Dr. Nisbett’s Mindware now. He remains one of the few principled advocates for environmental influences on intellect, someone who can acknowledge that IQ is real and that heredity has a significant component, while also focusing on the cultural and environmental impact on intelligence given neurogenesis and celebral reconfiguration throughout childhood.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Truth
    , @Hacienda
  195. Joe Webb says:

    all of this helps to explain Oriental Despotism. The Chinese and Asians generally cannot Think about social phenomena except with numbers. Hence, as we used to say Red China or N. Korea are despotisms.

    Asians cheat in college at about 5 times the rate of Whites…I think that was reported at Unz somewhere.

    Turn the world into Oriental Despotism, which is its tendency anyway, from the ME to S. America mestizos to Western Asia, and on and on. The only genuinely humane folks are Whites, who take That way too far. We are all Equal, the saviourist psychology of idiots first.

    Asians could not care less about democratic standards and free speech. And they seem very interested in money, much more so than whites.

    I asked two different Chinese young gals about their apparent preference for white men. Here in Menlo Park and Palo Alto….in separate incidents they both said the same thing. White guys treat you better, for Asian men it’s all business.

    Yellow Peril.

    Joe Webb

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
  196. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @TT

    Shanghai actually top 2012 for all three subjects again, as well as improving 2009 scores to 613 in maths, equivalent to 3 school years ahead of ave pupil.

    I don’t find Shanghai all that surprising as it is one the preeminent educational powerhouses of China. In addition, I believe they had a high absentee rate on PISA as well:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/pisa-which-countries-not-to-trust/

    For my part, I don’t actually take IQ test very seriously, and I believe any usefulness they may have is very limited. A few weeks ago, I started to look into IQ numbers from Lynn and many others IQ researchers and I began noticing all sorts of weird oddities with how IQ scores are collected, how average scores are designated, and how results aren’t weighted by regional population to come up with a “national” IQ score. Then there is the matter of how in the world North Korea is often listed as having an IQ of 105-106. In my mind, IQ scores are supposed to be scores on a test; when was North Korea’s IQ tested? Were poor rural North Koreans tested? All of this leads me to be very skeptical of IQ statistics, especially older ones.

    Recent international standardized tests like PISA, timss, ect. seem somewhat better, but again, only so useful. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting that tests like PISA and PIRLS don’t show any significant gap in reading scores between Asian and European countries.

    If people are searching for possible explanations for the different attributes of Asians and Euros, then IMO, it might be worthwhile to look into differences in average traits other than IQ, such as personality, temperament, ect.. That is not to assume whether or not these traits are environmental, situational, social, cultural, or genetic in origin. Just to see if they exist and if they have any explanatory power. Just my two cents.

  197. bjondo says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The reason for needing weeding. To save mankind.

  198. utu says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    cultural and environmental impact on intelligence

    Fortunately we had few comments here that tried to redirect attention to culture under this article whose author missed an opportunity to tell interesting stories about West and East by being lead astray by simpleminded HBD concept. But at least he rejected its most primitive version based on IQ/g and acknowledged that at least the two-axial space based on math and language must be invoked which is a moderate improvement over the g based reductionism.

  199. Joe “Anatoly is a kebab” Webb.

    Your predictive capabilities have been tested, and…found wanting.

  200. denk says:
    @TT

    Im sojourning to my meeting with zhou gong now.

    Barring unforeseen circumstances, might be back here, as spectator perhaps,

    hhhhhh

  201. Jeff77450 says:

    I don’t understand why everyone gushes about the Chinese. Does anyone doubt that without western investment & technology, to include upwards of $1-trillion of intellectual property theft, that they’d still be sweating the next rice harvest? (Exaggeration for effect).

    • Replies: @TT
  202. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English

    Danny, you just destroyed me. All this time I thought you were actually legit. Your name on your birth certificate is probaly actually “Daniel” instead of Xan-Chol or something.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  203. @Truth

    My name is obviously not Daniel. I’m not an idiot who self-identifies. Like many Chinese, my actual name has meaning and implies the hopes and wishes of my parents to my future.

    I spoke Chinese at the same time I learned to speak English(from birth, basically), but as a written language, Chinese was more challenging to learn, especially in an environment where I’m not immersed in it.

    • Replies: @Truth
  204. There are two types of verbal intelligence or two emphatic ends for it:

    - to understand and apply concepts correctly; to create new ones [hopefully useful & factual-based]

    - to memorize/grasp the ”correct way” to write [ortography/grammar] and size of vocabulary.

    The first one seems more practical, heuristic-based, objectively useful while the second seems more useful to signal social and/or ideological status as well to grasp social commands, for example, write ”correctly’ in that or this language.

    Seems one of the great problem of verbal IQ tests is that they simply ignore the idiossincrasies of each language, so at priori, appear to be quite relative if you are great in your rare mother tongue or if you cannot be capable to learn properly another language, for example, french language.

    But, maybe would be interesting analyse how precise/factual and comprehensive a language has been if it is compared to another to symbolize reality [and its individual elements] because we can have a very complex ancient and rare language but not so useful and even complicated to be learnt if the fundamental end of communication is itself in the best/clean/reciprocal/efficient ways as possible.

  205. voicum says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    maybe you just do not know enough mathematics.

  206. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    So you don’t use one of those cute Anglo nicknames like “Bobby” or “Jackie”, like Chan kon-Sang does?

    https://notednames.com/Movies/Actor/Jackie-Chan-Birthday-Real-Name-Age-Weight-Height/

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Talha
  207. utu says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein’s primacy.

    Einstein wanted to perform the same trick he did in Special Relativity where he inverted reasoning of Lorentz and derived Lorentz transforms form a postulate that velocity of light is invariant plus a trivial postulate that laws of physics are maintained in inertial systems. This he published in 1905 w/o as single reference presumably claiming that he was not aware of Lorentz and furthermore of Poincare work. Only after WWI when English translation of the 1905 paper was published Lorentz was acknowledged but not attributed as inspiration, meaning that Einstein still claimed he did not know of Lorentz work. The trick was that by postulating speed of light invariance the question of ether was rendered superfluous.

    He wanted to accomplish a similar feat with gravitation and render it superfluous so no questions about its nature and the spooky action at distance would be asked anymore. With the equivalence principle he transformed the problem to geometric problem of space. This he could not solve mathematically. So Marcel Grossman came to the rescue and did most of the math but then they get stuck with the final equation which they could not formulate nor derive. So Hilbert was approached and indeed he solved the problem and decided to publish. He showed some results to Einstein who decided to publish it w/o acknowledging Hilbert. And then came historians who started to create a myth of great Einstein and decided to erase Hilbert from the picture just like they erases Lorentz and Poincare. Some manuscripts were destroyed and some altered.

    http://www.znaturforsch.com/aa/v59a/s59a0715.pdf
    a crucial part of the printer’s proofs of Hilbert’s paper had been cut off by someone, a fact not mentioned in the paper by Corry, Renn, and Stachel, the conclusion drawn by Corry, Renn, and Stachel is untenable and has no probative value. I rather will show that the cut off part of the proofs suggests a crude attempt by some unknown individual to falsify the historical record.

    Orwell’s “He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” is very apt here. The history narrative is being retold by those who control the present in order to control the future by altering the past.

    Just like British Empire found it very useful to construct a myth of an ultimate genius out of the crank and kook Isaac Newton similarly Jews in the beginning of 20 century created an ultimate inscrutable genius out of skillful and unscrupulous plagiarist Albert Einstein.

  208. @Truth

    My Chinese name has homonym in English, so there’s no real reason for it. I do have a rather flattering nickname given to me by a black guy who I helped with, which was pretty amusing; he coupled my last name to rhyme with a honorific and seemed surprised that no one ever had thought of that before. In that sense of “IQ”, blacks do seem to be remarkably glib with sounds.

    • Replies: @Truth
  209. jjj says:

    How is software programming verbally loaded vs. visual spatially loaded?

    @yan shen

  210. Factorize says:

    Genetic enhancement of IQ is likely already occurring in China.
    (From what I understand, this would be illegal or at least by common agreement unacceptable in the US.)

    The M/V tilt of East Asians and more specifically presumably the M/V tilt of East Asian men could become yet even more tilted with such IQ enhancement. The implications of this for East Asian society should now be of substantial research interest. It does not seem far fetched to imagine that maximizing math intelligence could lead to pronounced autistic behaviors possibly resulting in a complete lack of interest in reproduction. Such risk would likely greatly increase as the estimated theoretical maximum of human IQ of roughly 1500 was approached.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Troll: utu
  211. Talha says:
    @Truth

    Or Leroy?

    • Replies: @Truth
  212. Joe Webb says:

    I do not understand your Anatoly kebab crypsis

    Maybe that is cuz your English and Chinese wants poetry, or what is called in English sensibility.

    Funny, I went to the doctor today and the Chinese doc said, O you are so easy to talk to…white guys are way ahead of you chink men when it comes to your own women. How does that make you feel….more totalitarian?

    How do you account for the Oriental Despotism in China, etc. which will never change.?

    How about a straight answer instead of your crooked-chinkisms. Also, your picture written lingo is so backward compared to an alphabet. That may help explain your race’s deficits in thinking other than numbers.

    We will throw you out soon.

    Joe Webb

    • Troll: utu
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  213. @Factorize

    I think that you should not learn your neuroscience from memes.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  214. @Joe Webb

    Thank you for your contribution to Unz humor.

    • Replies: @TT
  215. @Factorize

    Anyway, worth addressing a bit more into:

    1) At the moment, we know of some genes which, taken in combination, may have some effect on IQ.

    2) We are not at the point of being able to CRISPR such things.

    3) “Intelligence” is complex, and while IQ is a decent broad metric, it cannot account for many issues which influence final performance.

    An excellent example of this are executive function issues are not well accounted for in IQ tests – earlier, someone mentioned a woman who was stressed out by exams under timed pressure even though she was otherwise intelligent. We might consider the parts of her brain that process information to be well-formed and capable of producing results, however, the limbic parts of the brain involving stress overpower her ability to engage the relevant neurons to produce results for the exam.

    Another example would be individuals defined as having ADHD – they may have all of the necessary mental parts in order to perform, but cannot focus well. On the other hand, they appear to have a slight creative advantage in spite of the lowered working memory. Autism itself appears to involve stress on the “systemizing part” of the brain, possibly by damaging connectivity and disengaging it further from social portions of the brain. It is unrelated to sexual interest, although the reduction in the ability to engage or recognize social cues obviously has downsides in normal life including romantic pursuit.

    It should be noted that although they may be considered as “disorders”, they are all parts of normal function which in some instances may be advantageous. You cannot simply upscale something and expect a higher performance; neurochemical upscaling/flooding is a feature of a lot of serious mental disorders and extraneous drug use. It does not, as a rule, improve overall performance: someone on LSD might be more creative in a certain sense, but it cannot be considered as an overall, consistent improvement in function.

    We’re a long way off from “improving the brain” in how you suggest.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  216. Truth says:
    @Talha

    Leroy Li is kinda swag.

    • Replies: @Talha
  217. Talha says:
    @Truth

    Agree – it’s got almost a comic-book secret identity ring to it with the alliteration.

    By day he is Leroy Li – unassuming High-IQ geneticist.

    By night he is “The Red Panda”!

  218. Factorize says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Thank you for replying.

    I am interested in your opinion from the Asian perspective on this.
    I realize that this is a difficult topic to talk about, though it is important enough to give it an honest try.

    The M/V tilt also applies to men and women especially at the top end of achievement.
    Even at 0.01% ability level the gender splits between the tilts are very large. 0.01% is only 3 SD;
    it is expected that there are 100 SD of IQ.

    Considering the research evidence, enhancing IQ would reasonably pose a risk of having men and women being essentially unable to communicate with each other. If such issues are difficult now, then there might be a point in the future in which it became impossible.

    Genetic enhancement of intelligence is clearly possible. American companies have made a special note of mentioning that they feel such enhancement does not conform to social norms.

    The autistic risk involved when those with high IQ reproduce is painfully evident in Silicon Valley. It has been described as an epidemic. This resulted simply through selection and random recombination. An honest dialogue about the reproductive risks involved among those with high IQ
    especially those with a math tilt seems entirely appropriate. Tragically, it is the very lack of communicative ability that has allowed this problem to drift forward.

    China has been reported to have embraced widescale PGD. It would seem to be highly advisable to consider what risks might be involved before such risks became all too evident.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
  219. Yan Shen says:
    @Factorize

    Could we ever uh enhance the IQ of existing individuals rather than merely edit the genomes of potential future humans? If so, I’d love to see an IQ 1500 enhanced Ta Nehisi Coates going toe to toe with a uh IQ 1500 enhanced John Derbyshire. It would be like seeing two real life terminator T-3000s duking it out for supremacy…

  220. Yan Shen says:
    @Factorize

    Honestly with a population of over 1.38 billion, I think a population decline of a few hundred million over the long run in mainland China wouldn’t be too bad of a thing…

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  221. Factorize says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The current state of the art in IQ GWAS has revealed 10% of the variance in human intelligence.
    There is thought to be 100 SD of IQ.
    10% is 10 SD or 150 IQ points.

    Most SNPs for IQ are fairly common so simply selecting embryos (not CRISPRing) would result in very large enhancement of IQ.

    Autism has been found to be positively correlated with IQ in recent GWAS.
    What I found interesting is that even at the top end of the intelligence curve (without genetic engineering) autistic like traits start to appear. If this is what happens at +5-7 SD, it is reasonable to wonder what might happen at +10-20 SD or higher.

    It is notable that the Genius sperm bank apparently had to close down because when people were actually given the opportunity to have children with the genes of a genius, they decided the risks involved (e.g., autism) outweighed the benefits. This might be our future. People simply might choose again to enhance other features than IQ.

  222. WhiteWolf says:
    @Truth

    It was Tesla who brought us AC power to our homes while Edison was pushing for DC which is a lot less efficient over long distances. Tesla did plenty of practical things with his genius and deserves to be recognized much more than he is.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  223. TT says:
    @Jeff77450

    China will be foolish not to do that to expedite their rise & prosperity. When a developing country cracked down on copyrights under US pressure, it cost so much & dampen progress. My gov make I. T. progress & business modernization so costly bcos of strict copyright enforcement. Which motivate an biz upgrading with $10k vs $5 pirated s/w?

    The west came out with a system called Patent & IP rights, and they published their findings in details to ensure they have the best ground to sue anyone infringing their dominant fields.

    Others juz screen through these vast trove of treasures, & improved from there. Japan, Korea & US allies have risen fast probably under some US blessing.

    I doubt US is more morally kind or honest not to abuse this system, but advocate only to protect its own interest as it had more to lose, further leading with its 5eyes that spy on everyone 7/24.

    There was once an article told France found it too coincident that US always published few days before France invention release, so they decided every high tech should only converse through hardcopy, and it works.

    China only started to publish papers that it deems having commercial interest to them bcos they are getting deeper into globalization web. But i believe many top technology are not published, esp military applicable one, until condition tilt to their favour. They also producing many good & cheap products that have copyright lapse.

    Small nation simply loose out. Flash memory was dev by a small company called Trek2000. Everyone copy blatantly till this day. Trek has been sueing everywhere for last 2decades, and decided its futile against giants, so all new inventions juz sold to Toshiba. They are OEM for all Toshiba Flash memory.

    20yrs ago, when flash drive was only 16~32MB, 2 young Chinese engineers tried to convince us to support their 2GB flash invention that will revolutionize commercial HDD(biggest was Seagate 2GB?) & PC storage(juz plugin any dummy PC anywhere & run all s/w inside flash). Later, big flash mem started to roll out, today its 128GB, still nowhere i see these 2 guys company or name.

    Creative also suing everywhere for its Sound Blaster sound card, MP3 IP… Apple eventually agreed to settle out of court with $100M, on condition its used for suing other companies. Another had dev wifi touchscreen tablets for logistic & medical usage running on WinCE decade before similar iPad & Android tablet appear. These are tip of iceberg.

    Big eat small, jungle law. So don’t need pretend to take moral high ground, soon West will start copying China FSR rail(some patented China technology to their dismay), Quantum, Supercomputer, Elect Vehicle, Pebble Nuclear Reactor, A. I., ….etc.

    In my understanding, West FDI in China is always insignificant, esp US has intentionally discourage FDI to block China rise for decades with its BS of debt collapsing propaganda, while falsely hyping India potential as counter to China. HK, Singapore, Taiwan, Asia are the consistent top FDI countries. More important is the knowhow transfer from these Asia countries, esp Spore was a mecca for China to pick up proven skills.

    From January to July this year 2017, the top ten nations and regions regarding investment in China (according to the actual input of foreign capital) are as follows: Hong Kong (USD52.57b), Taiwan Province (USD3.26b), Singapore (USD2.81b), Japan (USD1.84b), U.S.A. (USD1.78b), R.O.K.(USD1.75b), Netherlands (USD1.36b), Germany (USD1.24b) , U.K. (USD890m) and Denmark (USD610m), total of which accounted to USD68.1b, accounting for 94.4% of total actual use of foreign investment in the country, down by 6.7% year on year.

  224. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Im always amuse by your forever short & humor reply to stupid troll.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  225. The Scalpel says: • Website

    The most important issue going forward is the reproductive rate in advanced societies of the high math/verbal types. In primitive societies, this is high, but as societies become advanced, it plunges. Japan isan example.

    As for rewarding high math/verbal types, why? Why should we as humans encourage more advanced weapons, more smartphones, more AI?

  226. @Factorize

    Most SNPs for IQ are fairly common so simply selecting embryos (not CRISPRing) would result in very large enhancement of IQ.

    IIRC embryo selection was attempted but for some reason did not result in significant increases; at any rate, embryo selection is not common enough to make that much of a population difference – its only within reach of a certain socioeconomic segment of the population, and conceiving “naturally” is much more common and fun.

    Autism seems to be related to reduction of communication from portions of the brain to the other, the intelligence increase has been suggested from the “insulation” from other traffic. However, this has limits in improvement, you can only make a message so clear and reducing the “semantic network” of meaning too much is likely an excellent way to destroy any divergent thinking/creativity at all. By that, the connectivity of the brain is partly how creativity works – information is stored on the brain in many locations, and insights are often found through loose association rather than travelling along well-myelinated neurons(this is probably how LSD increases creativity, by relaxing the usual checks on logic and inhibitions).

    I don’t think the human brain is optimized at all, but I also don’t think our current understanding is too poor to do much with it, at least much that cannot already be done with extragenous factors postnatally.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  227. @TT

    I’ve played too much League of Legends to be really bothered by trolls anymore. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that game, but there’s a Chinese joke about it too:

    “You start with five enemies. Try not to increase that number as you play.”

    I think its also the base by which 王者荣耀 bases its gameplay from, but I’m not as familiar with that game.

  228. The Scalpel says: • Website

    Why do you think a population decline would stop there, especially if having children does not “add up.”?

  229. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Yan Shen

    Previous comment directed at Yan Shen. Sorry for the confusion.

    “Why do you think a population decline would stop there, especially if having children does not “add up.”?

  230. sir says:

    I totally don’t buy this “split” non-sense. I feel sorry for Mr. Shen for writing so many words trying to make sense of this non-theory. I give you one word: school. In East Asia countries, they treat math as a serious subject in school. It’s not an elective. Students must do well in math to advance. A lot of exercises to practice your math proficiency. And lots of exams too. Whereas in America, people have had it too good for too long, so both the teachers and students only pick subjects that easily excite them, utility be damned. So you see them talk about dinosaurs, mummies, expeditions, court arguments, etc. Math is boring, unless taught by good teachers, and it requires a lot of effort. And then it not even required for your academic advancement. As a non-white I observed that modern mathematics, computer science, cryptography, formal languages, etc are all invented by European/US whites. So how can you say they are not good at math?

    • Replies: @Da_Han
  231. @WhiteWolf

    Tesla indeed invented the electric engine that could run on alternating current.
    That gave the great break trough in transporting electricity over long distances, with a high, effiicient, tension.

  232. denk says:
    @Stan d Mute

    ‘we suppress exceptionalism’

    buahahahahha

    Honey,
    Dont make my toe laugh !

    FUKUS defines exceptionalism,

    Never heard of ‘fukus exceptionalism‘ eh
    care to do a search ?

    fukus mantra
    ‘Do as I say, not what I do’

    ‘Murdering 50,000,000 of their own people? ‘

    Citation ?

    ‘they played games and smoked opium’

    You feel so proud of that part of your history when you
    genocided half of the chinaman at gun point eh,
    such a charming fella !

    hehhehe

    • Troll: Stan d Mute
    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  233. Hacienda says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Dr. Nisbett’s study such as how the Japanese viewers tended to associate “rabbit” with “grass” and “chicken” with “seed” while his American group associated “rabbit” with “chicken” and “grass” with “seed.”

    To me its clear that rabbit-chicken go together. Not so clear that grass-seed go together.
    So I get where the Japanese are coming from. The more fabulous take that Dr. Nisbett is taking, I don’t know. I’d have to read the book and find out more about the Japanese K-12 educational system.

  234. Joe Webb says:

    try Chinese and totalitarianism. Try White man with Free Speech. Try Africans with ju-ju.

    Try Jews with Domination.

    In Silicon Valley, try Chinese and Asian Indians with lie, cheat, steal, money. That is what I hear from White folks who are otherwise liberal.

    Try white man, with saviourism…our high Altruism Quotient as pathological for personal survival as well as race survival.

    Try Chinese and every other race as totally Darwinian, (Group First ), Jews take the cake in this regard, and are cousins of the Arabs…more of the same tribalism…Semites.

    The whole world , racially speaking, except for Whites , tribal. You win, we whites lose.

    Simple as that. However we whites are awakening . Even our kids as reported in American Renaissance a couple weeks ago , about half of them (age?) feel and sense that immigration is harming them.

    The New Yellow Peril will catch on, probably lastly after the black and browns, and thus you Chinese, etc. have plenty of time to time your departure for Home. Money bags get to go with you, at least for now.

    O, and your Chinese ju-ju, called Feng Shui, or whatever…magical thinking….take that with you.too, and don’t forget your kids.

    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @anon
  235. Joe Webb says:

    just lost more on the above.

    So. a few years ago the Chinese in Palo Alto were lobbying hard for the schools (white taxpayers) to pay for Chinese immersion (!) lingo for their kids.

    Now that is the kind of thing that Jews do….Imagine, Jews asking Whites to pay for Hebrew in the Schools. Actually Jews don’t do that , but only because Hebrew is for club members only. What is the Chinese word for chutzpah?

    More or less it would just be greed/money, not cultural, etc. assertion.

  236. Da_Han says:
    @sir

    “The Babylonians invented X Y and Z. So how can you say they are not good at X Y and Z?”

    Asians can do it better.

  237. @denk

    Citation ?

    You’re a dull witted slant eh? Ok, well, call me the great Teacher. I’ll call you a pathetic troll.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

    Generally accepted is a range between 37 million and 65 million. Puny Japan whacked around 300,000. The first Opium War saw 20,000 British/Indians whack some 200,000 Chinese yet suffer only 69 casualties. The second Opium War saw 20,000 British/French whack another 200,000 Chinese.

    Inferiority complex much? And with Great Teacher finished, now you’re on my “ignore” list.

    • Troll: TT
    • Replies: @TT
  238. Dmitry says:
    @myself

    If read without prejudices, Ancient Greek thought, is also very alien to us – perhaps equally so as Ancient traditions of India and China. Alien strangeness of Ancient Greek thought, is one of the things Nietzsche often emphasizes in his writing.

  239. denk says:

    That perfidious albion press which didnt even dare to print my comments, claims ……..
    You call that a proof , kid ?

    I’ve teach some other morons like you about journo 101, a pity that you’r too thick to learn anything from it….

    Pay attention now, this is what I call smoking gun !

    In addition to the opium genocide on China,
    I hereby accuse fukus of engineering one of the worst genocide in the 20C in Indonesia 1965, killing an approx 3000000 Indon peasants and ethnic Chinese.

    How do I know that ?

    From the horse mouth !

    ‘The Foreign Office replied: “We certainly do not exclude any unattributable propaganda or psywar [psychological warfare] activities which would contribute to weakening the PKI permanently. We therefore agree with the [above] recommendation… Suitable propaganda themes might be… Chinese interference in particular arms shipments; PKI subverting Indonesia as agents of foreign communists”. It continued: “We want to act quickly while the Indonesians are still off balance but treatment will need to be subtle…

    Please let us know of any suggestions you may have on these lines where we could be helpful at this end”.’

    http://markcurtis.info/2007/02/12/the-slaughters-in-indonesia-1965/

    So you can now proudly gloat that ‘we whacked another millions of chinaman in 1965′, that’d the the truth.

    hehehehe

  240. Factorize says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Thank you for responding.
    I am interested to hear your impressions of the near term prospects for intelligence enhancement. Not

    My guess is that such enhancement is already feasible in a limited sense. The calculations suggest that 1-2M scale GWAS will unlock the entire IQome. With these variants it is only a question of embryo selection which has been in clinical use for almost 50 years.

    If each chromosome has 1000 variants and there are 50 good variant difference between chromosome strands, then there would be 10 SD difference in selecting the highest PGS for the complete set. That would entail a large amount of selection, though apparently a 1 in 10 selection would still give 1 SD. It might take some time for people to fully appreciate how large an enhancement effect could occur with simple selection.

    This clearly will have enormous implications for humanity. Some people simply might want to kick this down the road. We might just have to pretend that the future has not already arrived for a while longer.

    I find it highly relevant to note that a consumer genomics service has launched that offers polygenic trait selection. However, they have specifically excluded intelligence enhancement. The reason given was that such enhancement is not considered olitically acceptable.

    Height is now probably the polygenic phenotype that has been best characterized to date and its genetics in many ways is thought to be similar to that of IQ. It seems entirely possible now that polygenic selection could add 2-3 SD or about a foot to the adult height of a selected embryo.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  241. @Factorize

    I’m dubious. We’ve had the means of breeding for height for hundreds of years, but we’ve never really selected humans consciously like we have had for animals. The costs involved still seem prohibitive, yes, even in China. Assuming that some amoral billionaire chooses to select his children that way, I don’t think that it’ll be of a breathtaking scale and previous efforts to make geniuses have had less than gleaming effects, such as the below:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James_Sidis

  242. Factorize says:

    I agree that objectifying others as gamete suppliers does not give one the feeling that there will be “and they lived happily ever after” ending. The great part with polygenic selection is that marrying for eugenic ideals would no longer apply. Any pair could use existing common variants and engineer desired extreme phenotypes. In terms of cost, I suspect that it will be like any technology, when a mass market develops economies of scale will drive down prices lower than could be imagined. If chromosome selection became available it would be as simple as perhaps choosing the best 23 recombinant chromosomes from each parent. I suppose that they might also have generically optimal chromosomes on hand if wanted or someone might want to be a third genetic parent.

    The commercial and financial potential seems overwhelming. This could be the industry of the 21st Century. Of course, IQ enhancements could continue for centuries.

    The immorality that I see with reproduction is that people randomly roll the genetic roulette wheel and when it doesn’t work out they blame the child. This has to be one of life’s greatest tragedies: Mommy and daddy don’t love you because you didn’t hit the red 7. A world where people can control the phenotype of their children has to be better than one where the love parents have for their children is conditional on a random event.

    It should be remembered that effective genetic enhancement of IQ was impossible until the results published only a few months ago. The small differences in IQ that exist from Greenwich mean (100) result from centuries or even many thousands of years of selection pressure. A single generation of effective embryo selection would result in IQs that greatly exceeded what is currently considered high IQ.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @res
  243. @Factorize

    I just don’t think it works as easily as you wish to believe – I don’t think you can just pick for the traits you want in regards to the brain and get “someone smarter.” You can pick for specific alleles such as, say, greater expression of BDNF but it has to work in conjunction with other alleles and I don’t know if we are anywhere close to the point of being able to predict the resulting phenotype: getting “And this will give us someone overall brighter” as opposed to “And this got us someone with a mental illness, but hey, he’s really got really good working memory for the smells of various types of metal, which is also the only thing he’s really interested in: sniffing metals. ”

    You can’t experiment with humans very easily. What China has an advantage in, to some extent, is that they use near-human models such as chimpanzees with much greater eagerness but at the end of the day, the human brain is pretty unique.

    We’ll see, I suppose.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    , @Factorize
  244. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Webb

    try white man with genocide and the global destruction of countless indigenous races and cultures.

    Its funny how alt righters such as yourself only seem to be able to see whites in a positive light and even try to claim white victimhood all the while casting a blind eye to the widespread white perfidy of the last few centuries.

    and please save the tired excuses like:

    “b-b-but whites were just trying to help out and c-civilize these indigenous savages!”

    its apparent to anyone with a working brain that whites acted with exploitive and malefic intent towards the rest of the world for centuries. Only alt-righters such as yourself actually drink the koolaid that whites are holy and perfect beings who have never done anything wrong or unjust. In fact very little has changed since then, western nations are still busy wrecking and exploiting the rest of the world and just in general casuing chaos. And dont blame the jews for this one either. I have talked to many white conservatives and they uniformly assume they have the right to deal with the world however they see fit, regardless of the wants or considerations of anyone else on this planet. It is apparent to me that there is still this arrogant, domineering and exploitive/opportunistic streak that exists in white people today even though colonialism is long gone.

    Additionally I have noticed that whites who identify with the alt-right typically tend to exemplify the very worst of the white race. I have met many compassionate, sincere and good hearted white people and none of them subscribed to this myopic, childishly immature, glorified, navel gazing, perfect image of white people that alt-righters love to trot out even though this image is completely at odds with the real and extensively documented behavior of whites in the distant past. White people are not perfect and are capable of some pretty awful things, just like everyone else. seriously, get a grip dude

    • Replies: @Joe Webb
  245. Yan Shen says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/science/2018/01/24/cloned-monkeys-scientists-china-first/1062649001/

    In a feat that raises questions about how close the cloning of humans may be, scientists in China announced on Wednesday they have successfully cloned two long-tailed macaque monkeys.

    The cloning of primates was long thought to be fundamentally more difficult than horses, sheep and other mammals and therefore much further away.

    “It’s a significant advance. Nobody has previously been able to create a cloned non-human primate,” said Arnold Kriegstein, director of the stem cell center at the University of California at San Francisco

    • Replies: @Bukephalos
    , @Daniel Chieh
  246. @Factorize

    the Genius sperm bank apparently had to close down because … they decided the risks involved (e.g., autism) outweighed the benefits.

    No.

    Genius sperm banks no longer exist. Well-known Repository for Germinal Choice closed in 1999

    Adolph Hitler…racial purity…Aryan race…Nazis…Aryans…pure blood…ideal Aryan…racist…Nazi Germany

    That’s why.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  247. William Pember Reeves, ‘The Long White Cloud, AO TEA ROA’, 1898, 1924, 1998, Middlesex
    F E Maning, ‘Old New Zealand’, 1887, 1980, Auckland

    Interesting books, the Maori’s were quite capable of annihilating each other long before white man came.
    And they were not the only ones.
    Within Africa, same story.
    The Inca empire was established in about a hundred years, does anyone imagine that it was a peaceful operation ?
    The difference with white people is just that we had the superior weapons, and ships.
    And had people describing what we did.
    There is a Spanish description of Maya culture before it was destroyed.

    • Replies: @anon
  248. TT says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Now im damn sure you are not a troll as you claimed so, but a moron China-hater agitprop troll.

    troll always used funny handle, that’s right.

    1,160 comments here and 170,000+ words. Nearly all have been grammatically correct

    but only BS. Try harder.

    Chinese invented Gun powder for fireworks that you despise, but now they learn the Opium war lesson, so it will be used in hypersonic nuke missile DF to ram aggressor ass. Russky learned that too, USNato are gang of lying jackals only understand one language, brute force.

    • Replies: @denk
  249. @Yan Shen

    What is the policy in China regarding medical experiments with prisoners? It isn’t out of the realm of possibility, I reckon

    https://qz.com/906142/a-chinese-medical-study-is-being-retracted-for-relying-on-organs-harvested-from-executed-prisoners/

    • Replies: @bjondo
    , @Daniel Chieh
  250. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @jilles dykstra

    whites were capable of displacing and destroying each other long before mass immigration and multiculturalism became entrenched due to globalization (ironically a process that organically materialized off the skeleton of western colonialism and western technology IE airplanes and the internet), however the difference now is that western countries are being deluged with immigrants due to better technology and an overarching global pro-globalization sentiment that is conducive for helping immigration friendly policies materialize as well as powerful pro-immigration factions operating within western countries themselves.

    so what was your point again?

    • Replies: @Joe Webb
  251. bjondo says:
    @Bukephalos

    Think I read China will use CIA and Israeli experiments on prisoners and others captured and used. Experiments by these 2 more numerous and demented than anything the Chinese are willing to do.

  252. @Dr. Doom

    I was put on Ritalin for reading entire books instead of the assigned chapters. I can only assume it was because the teacher hadn’t finished the books and didn’t want me to spoil it. It didn’t work, I pocketed the pills and read everything for the rest of the year and the next. Girls were encouraged to read, and I was drugged for it.

  253. denk says:
    @TT

    Ron runs an open forum, Im all for it.
    it’s one of the few sites left that we can still let off steam,
    There’s a downside tho, it also let in lots of flies.

    I normally follows the golden rule….
    Dont feed the trolls !

    But when it gets too audacious we need to give it a good swat to keep the air fresh so to speak !

  254. @Yan Shen

    Yes, that’s impressive. Won’t give us much to work with for a prefrontal cortex, but still pretty nice.

    I do think that as progress goes, it’ll be from steps like that, which seem pretty tangential but serve as the necessary building blocks in order to execute learning processes. Chinese science itself also needs to improve – there’s just a lot of poor quality studies with less than stellar controls, rushed studies, etc. I do think its improving, but a lot of the academic culture there needs to change, e.g. publish or perish, taken to extremes.

  255. @Bukephalos

    Conducting unethical experiments to produce superhumans from prison subjects sounds like a great way to experience V for Vendetta in this present reality simulation.

    • Replies: @Bukephalos
  256. res says:
    @Factorize

    The great part with polygenic selection is that marrying for eugenic ideals would no longer apply. Any pair could use existing common variants and engineer desired extreme phenotypes.

    I don’t think this is true for selection. Take height as an example. If the parents are at +2 SD then the starting embryo distribution mean should be around +1.5SD (due to regression towards the mean) and the likely outcome achieved by equivalently powered selection (e.g. 1 from 10) compared to parents at the mean should roughly preserve that advantage. I suspect the advantage could be even larger if selecting for multiple traits.

    Actual genetic engineering is of course different. But even there I think there might be a benefit to reducing the number of edits required.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  257. res says:
    @CraigAustin

    Girls were encouraged to read, and I was drugged for it.

    Welcome to the Harrison Bergeron world.

  258. Joe Webb says:
    @anon

    you got your righteousness act going here.

    I never claimed that whites are holy people, like jews often claim

    We have killed lots of Others, just as Others have done so.

    We took the Americas because fundamentally, the Amerindians were Stone Age people. (They should thank their dirt gods that the chinks did not get here before us…they would all be gone, etc.)

    We sent them to schools, etc. Nothing worked cuz their IQ today is 83 and their temperaments are very volatile and violent, like Blacks.

    We conquered, just as other peoples/races have conquered others.

    Your remark that you have talked to ‘alt righters’ who think whites have the right to control the world, etc. I know many of these folks and our general position is that every race has the right to be in their homelands. But not in ours.

    You also say that whites think they can control the world. You must have been talking to jews, not whites.

    Finally you say that alt right types are without compassion, etc. Your “good hearted” whites are liberals. They have opened the gates to the shit people (led by jews bent on reducing whites to hopeless minorities in their own countries) and are destroying not only our racial morale, but any Hope for a civilization that is smart and Humane…meaning aware of things like free speech, rule of law, privacy, and , never mind high intelligence like getting to the moon, etc. but High Sensibililty that makes possible delightful interpersonal relations, especially those between the sexes.

    Whites invented romantic love. With the Others it is ‘just business’ per my Chinese gals’ story, or gutter sex of the blacks, etc.

    Whites Are the best all-round race. We invented civilization really.

    As for our tendency to dominate….being lamented by pussies like yourself…that is WHY you are here my friend. You stand before yourself in the mirror…and if you got any real brains, you realize that you are here because your grandfathers , etc. killed enemies, both personal and political.

    If you want to extinguish Whites, start with suicide, you fool. Get a grip, race traitor…and Where are You Kids?…zero I would guess.

    I just saw reported that Oprah is waiting for God to give her a sign to run for President.
    Afreaka!

    Or take Aztlan! Or take China! The the Muslims! please. All despotisms. By the way, Amerindians are from Asia and show the genes of same…collectivism, etc.

    Whites are the only race that is Individualist. Way too much so . We need to tribalize to drive out the low life, and put liberals like you behind bars until you sober up and …promise to have babies.

    Ever notice that all the extreme sports are dominated by whites? Adventure, courage, will to power.
    We are losing that cuz of dopes like you. (I used to by somewhat like you…leftist lite. But I am smart, and courageous…meaning that I had the balls to Change! as the ex-prez put it.)

    Civil War is coming because so many whites got this “saviour” complex. save every piece of junk DNA of Homo sapiens no matter how objectively un-human.

    California just spent 18 million dollars on a junk illegal Mexican kid with some kind of weird disease. That is what is killing us, besides you.

    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  259. Joe Webb says:
    @anon

    by the way, the white liberal/jewish subverters are trucking in illegals to vote. this has even been baldly noted on the semi-cucked Fox News.

    This is suicidal. Liberals have become communists…pimping little sisters of communism. Back in the day of Trotskyist One Communist Worlders, it was literally “world revolution.”

    Staling put at end to that, with Socialism in One Country.

    Today, it is World Revolution again. The old Revolution Now! of 1789 and Saviours of Humanity.

    There is no possibility of Saving Anybody in the Christian sense. It is a Darwinian world. But that includes tribalism, so your GROUP can be saved. That is, it can be Saved if you identify with it and fight for it, like the jews do, etc. and every other racial group, except Whites who are cursed by pathological altruism.

    This all started back with Stoicism which fed into Christianity, etc.

    Immigration is race suicide. Liberals cannot stand the world as it is…Darwinian…and for them it becomes All or Nothing. All is saviourism, Nothing is death. Maybe that is what they want….let me help them…just kill yourselves and stop beating the rest of us up with your nihilism.

    Joe Webb

  260. Factorize says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Thank you very much for the link and the correction.

    I was not entirely sure myself what was the true reason for shutting down the genius sperm bank. Sometimes the truth can be obscure.

    It does still seem odd to me why a sperm bank for genius would close. The article that you linked went on to talk about how current sperm banks go to great lengths to describe the phenotypes of their donors. Is not genetic selection, genetic selection? It is OK to select people who are good looking and athletic, just not too smart?

    These clinics clearly demonstrate the demand for the very enhancement that has been mentioned on this forum. I would suggest that given the current understanding of the genetics of IQ there should be no great surprise that the enhancement effect noted in the article was modest.

    Also since this was a very recent article I was surprised that full genome sequences were not mentioned when discussing the phenotype profiling of donors. It should not be surprising during this second generation of genetic selection using selected gametes donors and embryo selection to see large enhancements in IQ.

  261. Factorize says:

    Has China ever done comparable psychometric research to that done in Western nations? Is there a randomly selected sample of Chinese that have written an IQ test? Or are we truly open to the possibility that IQ differences between races is a claim unsubstantiated by scientific evidence?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @res
  262. Talha says:
    @Factorize

    That is a great idea. I’d actually like to see what kind of an IQ test the Chinese would come up with without influence from Western cultures as a way that they would gauge intelligence. Maybe it’s too late for them to come up with something that can be drastically different given that the influence is already ubiquitous, but I wonder what they tested for in the past before contact with the West.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @myself
  263. @Daniel Chieh

    I would almost have found that movie entertaining were it not for the off-putting homo propaganda. But the Wachowski sisters had to cram their ‘message’ somewhere, I guess

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  264. @CraigAustin

    Oh God, the situation is worse than I had thought.

  265. res says:
    @Factorize

    For a list of some Chinese IQ research papers download David Becker’s spreadsheet mentioned in http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/ and take a look at the COLLECTION sheet.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  266. GammaRay says:
    @Joe Webb

    Its pretty sad that you spent all this time writing out this word salad just to dodge and pussyfoot around the very simple counter-arguments that I put forth. Its clear that you lack the integrity to honestly acknowledge my points and instead try to sugarcoat things which any right minded person (including a LARGE number of white people) rightfully condemn. Im sorry dude but no matter how you cut it, invading, genociding and displacing people off their native lands is wrong. So why do you continue to try to make flimsy apologetics for it? Just own up to it. Its wrong no matter who does it; just because “everybody else is doing it”, doesn’t exonerate whites. Should we rehaul our justice system and employ the same logic there as well?

    “Murders happen everyday throughout the world, therefore there’s no point in criminalizing murder since everyone else does it.”

    “Rapes happen everyday throughout the world, therefore there’s no point in criminalizing rape since everyone else does it”

    “Theft happen everyday throughout the world, therefore there’s no point in criminalizing theft since everyone else does it”

    Whites just seem to have a unique cultural disposition to disregard and trample over the rights and considerations of others. This general cultural mindset, combined with the superior technology of whites allowed them to conquer the entire world. An impressive feat yes, but still immoral nonetheless.

    Why is it that WN/alt-righters always want to brag about the uniqueness and indispensability of whites when it comes to positive things like technological developments, but then when it comes to negative things like mass genocide, cultural destruction and looting, all the sudden WN/alt-righters want to talk about how whites are no different than anyone else? Why the inconsistency? Talking with alt-righters about the ethicality of european colonization is like trying to talk about the criminal culpability of OJ simpson with black people. Alt-righters have a massive blind spot about this and almost always resort to a WN version of “we wuz just good boyz and dindu nuffin” or more commonly “we wuz conquerorz”. You all uniformly lack the ability to admit any sort of guilt or wrong doing when it comes to this topic. Its pretty bad optics for you all and its only convincing to other alt-righters.

    That being said, going by the HBD worldview; if every race has certain intrinsic traits which influence a race to act in a given way and to have given strengths (and weaknesses), then why do WN/alt-righters always shy away from applying this HBD racial deterministic concept evenly and never take it to its logical conclusion? Its apparent that whites (in general) have something special about them which allows them to be so successful; but its also apparent that whites (in general) have something about them which predisposes them to act domineering and exploitively towards outgroups. If you are going to apply HBD reasoning, then please do so consistently; don’t pick and choose what sounds convenient to you. That’s just self serving.

    We took the Americas because fundamentally, the Amerindians were Stone Age people. (They should thank their dirt gods that the chinks did not get here before us…they would all be gone, etc.)

    Actually, there is a decent body of evidence which is suggestive of some sort of peaceful pre-columbian contact between chinese and amerindian cultures. While the jury is still out on the validity of these claims, there are many convincing arguments and pieces of evidence that bolster its probability.

    Honestly you show a severe lack of awareness and knowledge about this topic if you’re going to bring the chinese into this argument. The chinese are hardly violent colonizers (to their credit) and historical record bears this out. The chinese at numerous junctures throughout history had the capacity to colonize and destroy, but for the most part they just seemed to be content to trade and exercise soft cultural/economic hegemony. Ever heard of Zheng He per chance? The Ming dynasty had the capability to invade the entire world with their massive fleet but instead they chose to peacefully explore and trade. Furthermore, due to the inwards seeking nature of the chinese culture, the Ming dynasty ultimately decided to close themselves off to the world and as a result grounded their entire fleet and halted any further expeditions. That right there is pretty indicative of the general mindset of the chinese people. If they have violent imperialistic leanings; it is of a magnitude less than white people.

    Objectively speaking, I would think that the chinese would have dealt with the ameridians peacefully and as equals, instead of treating them as conquerers and the subjugated like the europeans did. You trying to make the argument that the chinese would have decimated the amerindian cultures is just a blatant and obvious form of projection on your behalf. Present day events also support my argument as well; it is western nations and especially the US which continues to try to antagonize and destabilize the rest of the world; meanwhile the chinese are well known for playing a more subdued role and vociferously respecting the sovereignty and integrity of other nations, especially when it comes to their internal affairs. While the chinese are not perfect, and have their flaws (many of them actually), being aggressive, imperialistic and antagonizing others (especially on a global scale) is not one of them.

    We sent them to schools, etc. Nothing worked cuz their IQ today is 83 and their temperaments are very volatile and violent, like Blacks.

    how kind of you; not only do you genocide and shove the native americans off their lands; but you also force your culture and way of life upon them as well. Could you imagine the alt-right outcry if african or muslim invaders had given indigenous europeans this same kind of treatment? LOL. Yet since you lack the ability for empathy; you are unable to realize that what you are saying is absolutely absurd, cruel and unreasonable. If you think what you said is justifiable, then please tell me whether or not you would condone the same behavior from hypothetical african/muslim conquerers towards indigenous europeans ;)

    Your remark that you have talked to ‘alt righters’ who think whites have the right to control the world, etc. I know many of these folks and our general position is that every race has the right to be in their homelands. But not in ours.

    Yup; this is the general impression that I get from the majority of altrighters. They condone colonialism in the past, which strongly suggests that they would condone its return in the future if conditions were right. Ive been following this movement for a long time bud, I know how you guys actually think

    More humorously; why are you trying to resort to moral/ethical arguments about what whites “deserve”, while just earlier you were justifying the genocide and displacement of amerindian cultures based on practical considerations? It sounds to me like you like to employ moral/ethical arguments when it serves a particular purpose, but then you have no problem reverting to arguments based upon cold, hard practicality and a “just so” mindset whenever it fits you. This my friend is called inconsistency and it is strongly suggestive of a lack of integrity on your behalf.

    So according to your reasoning; whites have the right to a homeland, but native americans do not have a right to their homeland, just because. According to you, Its fair and square when whites violently displace indigenous people and settle in their lands, but its not fair when immigrants peacefully settle in western countries. Wow, what an amazing bunch of hypocrisy and double standards covered with a flimsy and self serving veneer. Furthermore, multiculturalism and mass immigration are as much out of your control as a foreign nation invading and conquering your country is; therefore in this situation, might makes right. Inexorable, powerful, global and domestic forces compel the west to transform and adopt multicultural policies, just as inexorable forces compelled indigenous cultures to be transformed. You have no problem telling the native americans to just get over it, so why dont you get over it yourself?

    Keep this in mind as well; whites are a victim of their own doing. Globalization organically arose from the political and economic networks that remained as a legacy of western colonialism. Additionally globalization has grown and accelerated due to the technological advancements of the airplane and the internet, both western inventions. Alt-righters love to point fingers at others (immigrants, jews, etc) for the problems of the west, but they somehow fail to realize that the west is actually just reaping the natural result of what it has sown. The west forcibly and violently started the globalization project and now it is succumbing to it. If you really hate globalization and immigration so much, then you should hate your western forebearers for bringing about this state of affairs instead of lionizing and being proud of them.

    You also say that whites think they can control the world. You must have been talking to jews, not whites.

    No, im quite jew wise and can recognize jewish phenotypes and general jewish psychology when I see it. All the “white” people I have talked to that think they can control the world and have the right to trample over everyone else and do what they want have always been actual, gentile, non-semitic whites. Usually of a conservative slant, but not always.

    Generally speaking, Whites historically have caused the most damage to indigenous cultures around the world and in fact continue to do so in the present day as well. There is no denying this; whites are simply very good at doing this and have no compunction about doing this. Its quite obvious that whites are the world’s premier destroyers of different cultures, even more so than the “jews”.

    Finally you say that alt right types are without compassion, etc. Your “good hearted” whites are liberals. They have opened the gates to the shit people (led by jews bent on reducing whites to hopeless minorities in their own countries) and are destroying not only our racial morale, but any Hope for a civilization that is smart and Humane…meaning aware of things like free speech, rule of law, privacy, and , never mind high intelligence like getting to the moon, etc. but High Sensibililty that makes possible delightful interpersonal relations, especially those between the sexes.

    Whites invented romantic love. With the Others it is ‘just business’ per my Chinese gals’ story, or gutter sex of the blacks, etc.

    Whites Are the best all-round race. We invented civilization really.

    Navel gazing at its finest.

    If you want to extinguish Whites, start with suicide, you fool. Get a grip, race traitor…and Where are You Kids?…zero I would guess.

    I dont wish to extinguish whites and nowhere did I state this. Typical alt-righter histronic hyperbole. I am more than happy to peacefully coexist with white people, and the truth is, the majority of whites coexist peacefully with people of different races and consider people of different races both their friends and lovers. Hilariously, I know that the alt-right hates the fact that a large amount of white people are actually ok with people of different races and don’t hate them. Just to clarify though; from the very beginning I have only been advocating a reasonable, objective and balanced view of all the races. Whites have their good points and bad points, just like every other race. The only reason I wrote my original post was to correct the common alt-right misconception that whites are immaculate and perfect and are incapable of immoral acts or doing anything wrong, which is obviously untrue when you consider the bloody and unjust history of the west colonizing the rest of the world

    Most damningly; you don’t actually represent all white people. Nor does the alt-right hold the coveted position as being “the spokesperson for all white people”. In fact, a very large number of whites actively oppose people such as yourself, while I would figure that the vast majority of other white people are completely indifferent. Its only on the internet that alt-righters like to appoint themselves as the rulers and representatives of white people; meanwhile in the real world alt-righters are shunned and ignored by the majority of whites lol

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  267. Factorize says:
    @res

    Yes, in a strict maximum measurement sense that is true, though a ceiling effect could emerge.

    With the large number of SDs available for any pair to select, people might simply choose love and less problematic behavioral traits over optimal phenotype. If 10 SD IQ becomes widely possible, 15 or 20 SD might not seem to offer compelling marginal benefit especially if costs such as large social/ communication barriers were to emerge between men and women.

  268. Factorize says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Your comment started me thinking carefully about what the risks of IQ enhancement would be. You are certainly correct that simply choosing smart variants without any particular understanding of the brain could result in unexpected results.

    Yet, of course the current method of throwing up our hands and
    rolling the dice seems even less responsible. Considering the substantial genetic risks of natural reproduction it is not easy to believe that thoughtful genetic engineering could not do better.

    Given the speed at which science advances, it might take decades if not centuries to have any idea of how to safely enhance intelligence.
    Many would likely become frustrated having to wait.

    One strategy that some try in the meantime is to have a list of traits/illnesses that they would try to jointly optimize, avoiding more extreme genetic combinations that could increase risk.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  269. Factorize says:
    @res

    Thank you for the link!

    I was not sure whether China was one of those nations that officially subscribed to a non-psychometric world view.

    Do you have a link for what genetic changes might have pushed humanity to behavioral modernity 50,000 years ago. I am actually more in favor of a demographic perspective in which population density created psychometrically enhanced humans. Yet, as seen by the many disappearances of these early Paleolithic communities, such an effect was highly unstable.

    I am sure that you are aware of the Holocene article that discussed a more powerful genetic effect that occurred about 10,000 years ago. That would probably be about the time that the Asian g edge and M/V tilt emerged.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  270. res says:

    Do you have a link for what genetic changes might have pushed humanity to behavioral modernity 50,000 years ago.

    That is an intriguing question. Here is a provocative possible answer: https://www.amazon.com/Madness-Adam-Eve-Schizophrenia-Humanity/dp/055299930X

  271. @Factorize

    Yet, of course the current method of throwing up our hands and rolling the dice seems even less responsible.

    Not that terrible – dominant expressions of alleles usually are the ones that have fewer issues and severe damage leads to spontaneous termination in a form of hygiene(male births are much more susceptible to miscarriage, for example).

    By definition, if you’re trying to make something special, you’re trying to build something anomalous, so you’re likely to have unexpected results. But yes, I agree that in the meanwhile, and what’s most likely, is that it’ll be a lot easier to try to resolve obvious genetic issues, including behaviorial ones such as severe autism through CRISPR. And this kind of what you’re seeing right now in terms of research:

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/546036/first-monkeys-with-autism-created-in-china/

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @res
  272. @Daniel Chieh

    Worth adding here: a lot of medicine is like this, incidentally, in that it can be evidence-based that we know that it has an effect, but the mechanism is unknown. For example, we know that tianeptine has antidepressant results but its mechanism of action is poorly understood. Even our tools for analyzing chemical activity in the human brain are still primitive, since its not like we can sacrifice human subjects at t=10 minutes to extract brains to sample chemicals(something we do with cloned white mice, for example) and FMRI gives us blood activity but doesn’t provide chemical information and has been subject to flaws(the famous joke paper providing “dead salmon showing emotional states”).

    I think this is, if anything, exciting. Its very much of a wilderness to explore and a frontier to our understanding, one with genuine gains and the ability to benefit the human condition. The increase the ability to restore health and give life, independent of any augmentative function, seems to genuinely humane and merciful path to pursue.

  273. Joe Webb says:

    there is no behavioral modernity 50,000 years ago. Without going to the books, and looking at the neolithic, etc. that 50,000 years was the beginning Coming of Age in the North which selected for smarter people, both in Asia and Europe. See The Ten Thousand Year Explosion by Harpending and Cochran. They beat around the bush some, but it …..is the last ten thousand years after 50,000 years of natural selection in a cold climate, that tells the tale.

    Lynn, and Rushton have now others have sketched the Global North vs. the Global South as accounting for racial difference, especially in intelligence.

    No Ice Age, No brains. Africa, etc and the dumbest, next to behaviorally modern liberals, are the blackest, with the Pygmys and Australian Aboriginess at the bottom, with staggeringly low IQs in the 50s.

    Black Africa average is 70, like Haiti right now. Small heads equal small brains, equal low IQs.

    Intelligence drops like a staircase, from North to South.

    Imagine the IQs of African slaves fresh off the boat ca. 1700 etc. 7o. Three-fifths of a person was pretty accurate in US Constitution times, at least in intelligence.

    Amazing the labored behavioral/operational stupidity on this list.

    The only really dumb folks are those who went to college and learned that there is no difference that makes a difference. Rainbow Magic…dream of the pot of shit at Rainbow’s End.

    • Replies: @Factorize
    , @bjondo
  274. res says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    By definition, if you’re trying to make something special, you’re trying to build something anomalous, so you’re likely to have unexpected results.

    This is a good point. One case I think warrants particular care is low prevalence apparently positive (e.g. higher IQ) alleles. We should probably be very careful about selecting for homozygous cases of low prevalence alleles (i.e. cases which don’t exist often in nature) because of the possibility of heterozygote advantage and/or recessive genetic disease (e.g. Tay-Sachs).

    That said, one theory is that genetic load is much of what matters and “spell-checking” the human genome such that we are selecting for homozygous high frequency alleles which also maximize traits in studies seems likely to be a win. Though this pruning of genetic diversity seems risky for the group by tending towards monocultures.

    I wonder about the advisability of trying to optimize for cases of possible heterozygote advantage (e.g. sickle cell trait resulting in malaria resistance) which add a much higher risk of genetic disease if the following generation breeds naturally.

  275. Factorize says:
    @Joe Webb

    Thank you for your reply.

    Yes, you are right with your suggestion about the 10,000 year time frame as being the most important. There was a burst of genetic evolution at that time as people tried to cope with all
    the changes that were going on. Of particular note would be the population densities that occurred at this time, especially in East Asia. Before 10 kya I do not see how the demographic pressure (i.e., population density) would be binding enough to force genetic change. If I lived back then and all sorts of new rules and regulations started appearing, I just start walking. So 10 kya, really was this pivotal time in humans becoming modern.

    Interestingly, Africa has had a slash and burn non-settled agriculture system until almost present times. It is only now that they are running out of room and need to make the social changes to adjust.

    I had also not been fully aware that there are 2 main East Asian branches; an ancient one from 55kya
    and a somewhat less ancient one that included Europeans until 40 kya. Does anyone know whether psychometric GWAS have been done to see whether the two East Asian branches might have differences? The 3 or 4 tribes of Europeans would also be interesting to study. It would be fascinating to learn what genetic differences would result from descending from the “farmer” or the “horseman” tribe. Is there anywhere that you can upload your genome to find this out?

    Yet, the time about 50,000 years ago also is thought to mark a period of change: the Upper Paleolithic transition. There are findings of so-called behavioral modernity that emerge over a wide time frame from perhaps 150-30,000 years ago.

    I was wondering whether there might have been genetic changes related to this transition. However, I now favor the demographic theory. PMID: 19498164 Once human settlements hit a certain density then the article cited above suggests that average skill level in the community increases because there will be someone of high skill to imitate ( as per social learning theory). Apparently Africa has multiple sites where modernity was lost over about a 100,000 year time frame. The population in Europe only reached the required density about 45,000 years ago. The figure below simulates high (left) and low (right) population densities with the circle size representing average skill level.

    My modification of the theory is that genetics not social learning theory was the driving force. When you have density, then you will naturally expect to have some with enhanced IQ simply by chance. If you had a settlement of 10 with IQ mean of 70, possibly 1 person would have had an IQ of 85. With a settlement of 100, then someone might have an IQ of 100. No long term genetic modification would be needed and higher end IQ would be unstable with demographic declines. With the ebb and flow of population over tens of thousands of years there would be repeated cycles of mini-civilizations being built and lost.

  276. Factorize says:

    res, could you help out?

    I am not sure what is meant by “contour plot”. Contour of what? What are the isolines supposed to equate? The article does not seem to clarify this.

    Detecting polygenic adaptation in admixture graphs

    • Replies: @res
  277. bjondo says:
    @Joe Webb

    What IQ needed to invent boomerang?

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  278. johnp says:

    And what is HBD? Google it and you’ll find a dozen possible meanings. You should always define your acronyms at the start.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  279. GammaRay says:

    Why are mods not letting my replies through? I think its unfair to let “ideologically correct”posters such as “joe webb” post a reply to one of my comments, but then when I try to reply to the comment that he left, the mods won’t let my comment through. By doing this it is a sin of omission and it creates a false sense of inability (on my behalf) to refute alt-right talking points when in actuality I have no problem addressing his arguments and posting cogent responses. Shame on you unz.com, this is not a truly free forum, and the alt-right in spite of all its bluster about western values such as FREE SPEECH does not actually practice it

    If I were writing something that was obvious spam then I would not be complaining, but if I am writing legitimate responses and my responses end up in the trash can then it is obvious that unz.com does not actually believe in being a place which tolerates alternate opinions; especially alternate opinions which are solidly reasoned and backed up by facts. It says so much about unz.com that commenters like joe webb are allowed to spew their bile unimpeded and people are not allowed to legitimately challenge viewpoints which could not stand on their own were it not for censorship.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
    , @Yan Shen
  280. GammaRay says:
    @GammaRay

    earlier comment in question (#277) finally got posted after posting this comment, glad that the mods finally decided to post my comment, problem resolved.

  281. Yan Shen says:
    @GammaRay

    My understanding is that Steve Sailer is the only person who moderates comments here and everything else passes through an autofilter. Maybe the length of your prior comment was what caused the approval delay.

  282. bjondo says:
    @johnp

    HBD = High IQ Brain Dead.

  283. @GammaRay

    but but but

    ”the chinese” also has not been like an angels in earth surface…

    Yes, most CONSERVATIVES, regardless their races [as well their abnormal versions, the illibs], tend to have little self-reflection about their individual and collective actions.

    Most white people from far right ”just” started to attack the jewish-induced ”white guilt”, a designed moral exploitation and blackmail, to convince whites to surrender and celebrate their own disappearing. A binary strategy, and yup, very intelectually lazy too…

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  284. Masculinity expressivity traits among macro-races.

    Affective / psychological: Self esteem and dominance[or not so]

    ON AVERAGE

    African Blacks

    Cognitive: Non-verbal / spatial and quantitative

    ON AVERAGE

    East Asians

    Demographic: Psychological variation ['' typically masculine ''] …

    ON AVERAGE

    White europeans

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  285. Joe Webb says:

    been having some trouble with the ‘name’ and/or ‘real or fictitious email” boxes. I have been posting for years (!) now with Joe Webb, or joe webb, and have been getting the message, ‘already in use’ or similar announcement. So I have tried some other things, including leaving the first box blank, and putting my name is the lower box. That seems to work.

    So, to be clear, the “Anonymous” of above is me, Joe Webb.

    ———-

    We can start parsing the various numbers of years on the Neolithic, etc. to boring. More generally, the Bronze Age, etc, and so on gives us a more solid sense of what has been the progress of Northern peoples.

    The fundamental of Race, Evolution, and Behavior..pardon me for the Rushton lingo…is simply the Global North and its rigors…forcing natural selection for smarter folks. and unbenignly neglecting the global south.

    The dummies of the global south have lost out. It is that simple.

    Then, the Individualism vs. Collectivism factor is also profound. Oriental Despotism characterizes all the races except Whites, and sub-Sahara Africans, who are merely Chaotic, not fitting into either category of Individualist or Collectivist.

    Joe webb

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  286. res says:
    @Factorize

    I think the contour plot is meant to be essentially a density function of the data points (individual SNPs). I think the point is to attempt to quantify the typical effect sizes and give an idea of which region has a greater selective pressure and/or phenotypic value for the given trait.

    Looking at the peaks of the contours we see that CHB (Han Chinese) tend toward alleles causing higher EDU and unibrow but lower height than CEU (Northern Europeans from Utah).

    Also see this comment: http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1897271
    Figures 4 and 5 provide a different way of looking at the data which comes to a similar conclusion.

    P.S. If anyone else wants a larger version of this plot or to see it in context see page 78 of https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/06/04/146043

    • Replies: @Factorize
  287. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    but but but

    ”the chinese” also has not been like an angels in earth surface…

    there is no contradiction or double standards here. Whatever I post here at unz.com, I will always be consistent with my own views. I don’t tolerate hypocrisy or double standards from others and especially not from myself.

    With that being said; here is what I wrote with regards to the chinese in its entirety, it has not been edited or manipulated in any way:

    Objectively speaking, I would think that the chinese would have dealt with the ameridians peacefully and as equals, instead of treating them as conquerers and the subjugated like the europeans did. You trying to make the argument that the chinese would have decimated the amerindian cultures is just a blatant and obvious form of projection on your behalf. Present day events also support my argument as well; it is western nations and especially the US which continues to try to antagonize and destabilize the rest of the world; meanwhile the chinese are well known for playing a more subdued role and vociferously respecting the sovereignty and integrity of other nations, especially when it comes to their internal affairs. While the chinese are not perfect, and have their flaws (many of them actually), being aggressive, imperialistic and antagonizing others (especially on a global scale) is not one of them.

    The chinese are not blameless, nor flawless and I made sure to be clear about that. The onus here is on you for trying to pick flaws in my arguments without having thoroughly read what I am writing first.

    Most far-righters from my experience (I have been following the alt-right scene for nearly a decade now) uniformly want to take credit for all the good things that the west has accomplished (there are many, and I have no problems giving credit where credit is due), while simultaneously wanting to disassociate themselves away from/rationalize all the negative things that the west is responsible for. Well, you can’t have it both ways, you need to take credit for everything both the good and the bad, or take credit for nothing at all.

    Currently with regards to the west’s current predicament; I think its just a natural outcome of the west’s immoral actions in the past. The west created a golem (global colonization) which has now come to life and is threatening the west. While I agree that from a very limited perspective the west does appear to be the victim, if you zoom out a little bit, it becomes apparent that the west is basically reaping what it sowed.

    I would be more willing to be sympathetic for certain far-right political positions if the far right was willing to take a more somber and emotionally mature stance on the damage that the west caused to traditional cultures around the world. How moronic and hypocritical is it that the far right laments the loss of traditional western culture while simultaneously celebrating/attempting to justify the destruction of countless indigenous cultures around the world at the hands of the west? How does this make any sense? Why should I show any sympathy or understanding for people that absolutely refuse to show any sympathy or understanding for anyone else?

    • Replies: @joe webb
    , @Santoculto
  288. Factorize says:
    @res

    res, thank you!

    I do not like bothering people to do my homework, though I was unclear about these contour plots.
    I am not sure why they were not explained somewhere in the article. There does not even seem to be a legend for what the colors mean. Yet, as you noted the basic interpretation that the red colored area corresponds to high Edu in East Asians and height in Europeans appeals to intuition.

    Thank you also for the url for the human family tree. I had not realized how genetically distant Aboriginal Australians and those from New Guinea were from the other branches of humanity.
    They are almost as distinct as those from Africa. Do you have a similar tree that has years on the vertical axis?

    I also followed the link to pubmed article that mentioned the SNP IQ result. When you read the comments in context, it is difficult to label this as a rebuttal. I noticed that the height article that you linked earlier and used a similar method as the IQ paper, had a very negative peer review comment. Even still as a back of envelope calculation I am not sure that there is actually a flaw in the approach.

    The 10,000 Year Explosion was a great book. I had not been fully aware of the possibility that the divide in humans might not be so much about race as species. Much of the commentary on this forum has been devoted to highlighting differences between races. Yet, there would seem to be a fair amount of merit to the position put forward by others that the time scale of human evolution is simply not sufficient for races to have acquired meaningful differentiation. However, the idea that we could be separated more by the introgression of different hominid lines into humans than by race changes the conversation.

    Could the social justice community really believe that neanderthal-European-East Asian hybrids are likely to cognitively similar to those without such an introgression?

    res, IQ and intelligence is such an exciting topic to be watching right now. This is the center of the universe! At previous times in my life I might have dozed off during the odd genetics or anthropology lecture. It seemed like so much butterfly catching. However, now this is so alive.

    The wealth creation potential that is on the table is massive! Finding the variants for IQ and selecting for them will be this huge huge moment for humanity. China could publish a 200,000 GWAS for IQ and the total genetic unlock could be within sight. It makes no sense that this is not now considered an urgent global priority. The return on investment is too large to delay.

    Even still the Genetics Revolution has already Begun! I have been surfing around the net and there are companies already marketing these products. Informed people are no
    longer kicking the tires anymore. The race has started. This is obvious to those of high g; I wish that those who might be a step behind do not think that they can take a nap. A step behind will quickly become a light year behind.

    The entire notion that natural reproduction is how babies are made needs to be completely rethought. The birds and the bees need to be retired. We are now at the start of a centuries long
    journey where reproduction will only occur in a lab. With polygenics, there will need to be substantial genetic technology used.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  289. joe webb says:
    @GammaRay

    there is no point in asking for mea culpas from we White Nationalist types. Some traditional cultures have been disrupted to be sure. That is a good thing.’

    Argentina all but wiped out its Indians as late at 1900. That is , if not a good thing, an inevitable thing. Indian culture has stunk, and still does, constant warfare, warriorism that does not quit (in large part aided and abetted by whites bring them horses. (I guess they were too stupid not to wipe out the American horse, like many other extinct mammals that might have been domesticated ), torture that is comparable to the chink death by a thousand cuts.

    Any race with an average IQ below 90 or so, is basically a “culture” of tyranny. Show me one that is not.

    Personally, I have never seen an Indigenous race , not ‘culture’ that was worth saving, especially amerindians who were at war constantly.

    Show me an indigenous race that was relatively ‘democratic’ with relative female equality, legal rights, (forget free speech), and so on.

    Africa….total zero. Amrerindiand…semi-total zero. Asia ….some value, but not much.

    When the Ice returns in a thousand years or so, if Whites are still here, we will have to move South into Africa. Bye, bye Africans.

    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @GammaRay
    , @Truth
  290. joe webb says:

    “Objectively speaking, I would think that the chinese would have dealt with the ameridians peacefully and as equals, instead of treating them as conquerers and the subjugated like the europeans did”

    Subjectively you are a damned fool, and probably a chink. Look at the way China is beating up ethnys right now, or the the dissident types, and then there is the new chink dictator for life. speaking of life, get one.

    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  291. @bjondo

    Take a hike.

    It was behind the IQ of pre-dynastic Egyptian civilisation/s.

    Australian aboriginals still can’t figure out the aerodynamics of a stream of piss, let alone a boomerang.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  292. @Factorize

    …Finding the variants for IQ and selecting for them will be this huge huge moment for humanity. China could publish a 200,000 GWAS for IQ and the total genetic unlock could be within sight…

    Not so optimistic…

    a human brain is the most complicated machine on planet earth. Don’t think 200,000 GWAS will cut it. Plus, the potential genetic side-effects ought to be, if not equally, enormous, as there is after all no free lunch in either intelligent design or evolution.

  293. @Factorize

    I am sure that you are aware of the Holocene article that discussed a more powerful genetic effect that occurred about 10,000 years ago. That would probably be about the time that the Asian g edge and M/V tilt emerged.

    The only reason Panda could think of : it’s probably due to the Anunnakis or their peer competitors at a time.

    The key of g is brain size!

    The extra cubics of ultra expansive grey matters won’t be there for nothing, which bring a big present & clear un-answered question by all the IQ-researchers:

    What’s the average brain size of Ashkenazi Jews (and, the Jews in general)?

    In light of above, perhaps the seemingly Maths/Verbal split ( as Yan Shen talks about here) is also just a feel-good illusion.

    • Replies: @TT
    , @Factorize
  294. @Santoculto

    Masculinity expressivity traits among macro-races.
    Affective / psychological: Self esteem and dominance[or not so]
    ON AVERAGE

    Nonsense.

    The “masculinity expressivity” African Black appear to show in the Western societies is under the sheer goodwill, self-guilt and self-restrain by other civilised major races. In other words, it is indeed mostly based on a sense of pity by others to be honest. They will shrink to their so-called “self-esteem” & “dominance” once seriously confronted or challenged after the leftover goodwill and/or patience wane off.

    BTW, the real meaning of Human Masculinity are way beyond the simple degree of violence shown and defined in the wild animal world. e.g. An 80-year-old softy Tai-ji practitioner may exhibit Masculinity in many more perspectives , both range and depth, than a heavyweight mad cow.

    Furthermore, the psychological concept and testing of so-called “self-esteem” is severely flawed at some point. It is so retardedly defined in the academic world that starts to annoy Panda. The concept is tested rather on a illusion more often than not. hence it’s better termed as “false self-esteem” in this case.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  295. TT says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Panda, have you ever heard of human alive without brain? So even brain doesn’t matter.

    Once a Cambridge uni physicist told me, during world wars, there were records that when soldiers scalp were blasted open, some actually has no brain inside.

    Today, there are still cases people alive without brain, they live normally but only found out when they had inspection in hospital.

    Some recorded cases: a french man, some kids, baby, a china lady,… there are still many unrecorded cases.

    http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/07/miraculous-cases-of-people-who-lived-without-a-brain/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3293259/Baby-born-without-brain-amazes-doctors-celebrating-second-birthday-says-Mummy-time.html

    In Buddhism, its explained that our mind is immaterial. Its a immaterial consciousness that rely on some blood in bottom of our heart to exist. So when a heart is dead, the body will turn cold & this mind also ceased thus dead, nothing to do with brain. Brain is only considered as marrow.

    So a brain dead person can still stay alive, and revive, one famous example is China Phoenix TV presenter after train crashed was pronounced brain dead in UK, but fully revived in China using TCM. Actually brain dead people still can think, but can’t physically express. So when family talk to them, sometimes their tears drop.

    One example to illustrate our mind actually reside in our heart & not brain is: when you feel very sad or happy, do you feel that in your heart area or head? Try.

    Since ancient time, people already used the word heart, 心 , to illustrate their feeling & thought 思想,感情,心思, 开心. Sweet heart, broken heart 心碎, etc. Never brain. So don’t draw a brain in your love letter.

    Even ancient TCM if you read, it clearly explained our soul 魂魄 is inside our heart. But latest Chinese physicians been corrupted by West medicine, are twisting TCM text now to said its brain that think.

    If you interested to know more how our mind & body really function, then read Buddhism Abhidhamma.

    https://www.google.com.mm/url?q=http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwij0PP9mufZAhVGj5QKHZpKDvIQFjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0NMS-qtezWrxFT4mQ87Z0E

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    , @Talha
  296. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Webb

    Are you sure you do it intentionally or accidentally forget to remove your name below that your phone do by default? You write foolish comments using anonymous.

    Any race with an average IQ below 90 or so, is basically a “culture” of tyranny. Show me one that is not.

    Nepal 78, peaceful race.
    Bhutan 80, rank No.1 happiest people in the world.
    Of course you won’t agreed Cuba, Myanmar people are not tyrant bcos they don’t toe Uncle Scam line. How about peaceful people from Maldives, Sri Lanka, Laos, Marshall island, Peru, Mauritius, Costa rica,..some Africans, poor doesn’t equate to tyrant. They never invade, colonize, enslave others like the West.

    US is IQ98, UK IQ100, but these 2 are the most tyranny people of the world, heaping wars after wars, committing atrocities in entire of their history everywhere till this moment while we type. So are European Frence, Danes, Spanish, Portuguese,…long history of tyranny. Extremely cruel Japanese. What it got to do with IQ?

  297. bjondo says:
    @PandaAtWar

    But they can build one. Not so Einstein nor Sam Harris. Nor R. Feynmann. Nor can the ‘genius’ folks who come up with these IQ tests.

    • Replies: @bjondo
    , @PandaAtWar
  298. bjondo says:
    @bjondo

    Not only can the aboriginals design, build a boomerang, they know what they want to do with one and how best to use.

    What is the air o dynamics of a piss stream? Bet the abs could hit a lizard with their piss stream. Not so Richard Dawkins.

  299. @bjondo

    Yep, Panda can munch bamboo, too, creatively tie them up in lovely bundles with only back teeth, before devouring them with voracious speed and vigour. Can any big IQ genius do that? What’s your point?

    • Replies: @bjondo
  300. @TT

    So size of hearts as well? Definitely! Thanks for the links, but before you get completely carried away by Abhidhamma metaphysics, use your heart to think what’s the ultimate to measure? Size of balls? Brain dead or not, no balls, no glory, thus no Buddha, as they say.

    • Replies: @TT
  301. bjondo says:
    @PandaAtWar

    If you would read instead of munching bamboo and yammering, you would know my point.

    Panda middling IQ.

  302. @joe webb

    Argentina all but wiped out its Indians as late at 1900. That is , if not a good thing, an inevitable thing

    Wrong, it’s absolutely possible to create a good, even very positive/mutually good relation with other ”people”.

  303. @PandaAtWar

    [... or not so...]

    Higher self-esteem is indisputably higher among blacks, on very avg.

    BTW, the real meaning of Human Masculinity are way beyond the simple degree of violence shown and defined in the wild animal world. e.g. An 80-year-old softy Tai-ji practitioner may exhibit Masculinity in many more perspectives , both range and depth, than a heavyweight mad cow.

    Strawman, i never said masculinity is only based on agressivity levels BUT it’s doesn’t mean masculinity don’t correlate substantially with it, and it does.

    And i showed another aspects of masculinity, cognitive and demographic in my comment.

    Furthermore, the psychological concept and testing of so-called “self-esteem” is severely flawed at some point. It is so retardedly defined in the academic world that starts to annoy Panda. The concept is tested rather on a illusion more often than not. hence it’s better termed as “false self-esteem” in this case.

    Ok, define it…

    Self-esteem is basically or primarily ”non-dependant narcisism”, people who love themselves regardless people thoughts or appearance, the primary self-love some people have in intense ways.

    And self esteem is often related with extroversion and blacks are one of the most extroverted human populations..

    It’s more retarded talk agressively about self-esteem concept, such a easy one.

  304. @GammaRay

    Firstly you need dissociate common people from elites and from specifically historical elites.
    For example, when french colonialists were in Haiti enslaving africans blacks, most french people were being enslaved themselves by their local elites.

    Most white people are

    DOMESTICATED, as well we can see in most ”civilized’ places, China too.

    They has been too tamed to confront their historical elites attitudes and right now they are being blamed by crimes they never commited. [only when some intellectual elite trigger their animus]

    The same for England. Most english people in the past were poor and the poorest was very exploited during industrial revolution.

    When you say ”white people” factually speaking, you are not talking about regular white people BUT historical elites and specific groups who invaded other lands and make all this bullshit.

    Why should I show any sympathy or understanding for people that absolutely refuse to show any sympathy or understanding for anyone else?

    Because many them are desperated. Well, based on this logic, you must be angry or indifferent also about jews, isn’t**

    Even more, because they participated with whites in most of ”white people” crimes IN other lands.

    Abstraction ”white people” or ”white race” is a big scapegoat to blame regular people instead

    historical elites [not all of them]

    and

    and

    and

    thoos

    Elites tend to be fundamentally classicists, it’s their ”racism” way.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @GammaRay
  305. GammaRay says:
    @joe webb

    hilarious. Any pretense of morality or ethicality comes falling down and the true colors of WN finally show. As I suspected (and you are fairly representative of the average WN/alt-righter); white nationalism has never been about self preservation, rather its more or less a thinly disguised grab at global supremacy. I would have more respect for WN if you all were just upfront about your desires to reestablish global white supremacy instead of trying to hide behind fake moral veneers and moral platitudes about “the human right for all peoples to have their own homeland”. Newsflash, you are not judge, jury and executioner. Whites do not have the right to decide which cultures are allowed to live and which cultures must perish. Whites are currently on the other end of the sword (by the jews) and it doesnt feel so good does it? So why do you continue to harbor ill will towards other people who you perceive as weaker than you?

    Furthermore, you seem to believe that IQ, tactics, technology, etc are all that matters. You have no problem justifying the genocide or destruction of other cultures at the hands of whites using superior intelligence, technology, organization etc; that being said, why are you so against jewish hegemony over whites then? According to your darwinistic worldview; it really is about the survival of the strongest or the smartest. That being said, according to a strict WN HBD worldview, it appears that jews have what it takes to succeed in the modern world and have no problem gaining ascendancy over gentile whites. Therefore, using your own logic, this current state of affairs is justifiable, using your own twisted moral standards. Jews are smarter, more cunning and more sophisticated than whites; therefore according to your logic, their hegemony is justified.

  306. GammaRay says:
    @joe webb

    “Objectively speaking, I would think that the chinese would have dealt with the ameridians peacefully and as equals, instead of treating them as conquerers and the subjugated like the europeans did”

    Subjectively you are a damned fool, and probably a chink. Look at the way China is beating up ethnys right now, or the the dissident types, and then there is the new chink dictator for life. speaking of life, get one.

    you’re basically mad that I backed up my assertion with probable historical arguments as well as using modern day contemporary examples which you couldn’t refute; this is why you must resort to weak tu quoque arguments. Really this is your fault, if you didn’t want to get skewered on this topic then you shouldn’t have brought up something which you werent really knowledgeable about in the first place.

    None of what you say regarding china refutes anything I have said about china. Westerners seem to be inherently more alpha, aggressive, domineering and extroverted; this is why they sought to conquer the entire world. Im pretty sure 99% of WN agree with this statement, I am also making the same argument. Likewise the chinese seem to be inherently more beta, peaceful, submissive and introverted, this is why they never tried to conquer the world and instead tried to deal with others as roughly equals instead of trying to overtly dominate them. You’re only mad because I’m consistently using WN HBD logic and it happens to cast whites in a negative light vis a vis chinese people within this context.

  307. TT says:
    @PandaAtWar

    I only wish to point out a medical evidence that most won’t aware of, brain doesn’t even need to exist for human to live normally.

    Immateriality can’t be measured by materiality unit. But as you prefer to use balls to think, which must be rather large as truck wheel size consider your high intelligence, its meaningless to waste time continue any discussion.

    Abhidhamma was originated in India Buddhism more than 2500 BC ago, and its profundity is still beyond any existing theory that could explain mind & matter completely in the most scientific way.

  308. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    I have two problems with your argument:

    1. you are trying to state that the majority of whites did not benefit historically and present from colonialism both directly and indirectly due to their own indentured/slave status

    In practical terms we know that this is basically untrue because whites live very comfortable lives and have created very successful countries within the lands that their ancestors took from indigenous people; the fact that the anglosphere is alive and prospering is testament to this. The elite of european countries were not able to conquer and settle these countries by themselves, they had to use the manpower of the european proletariat as well. I think its highly disingenuous that you are massively understating the complicity of the average westerner both historically as well as in a modern context when it comes to the materialization and continued propagation of western civilization around the globe.

    2. My argument is not actually against white people, and I think I have made that very clear over and over. My argument is merely attacking the hypocrisy of WN/alt-righters who want to claim victimhood for white people but simultaneously want to celebrate the destruction of other races at the hands of whites. If you think I am attacking whites (you apparently think I am) or harbor some kind of ill will against whites then you are dead wrong. Why should I harbor some grudge against whites when the majority of whites are good people who basically just want to live their lives and don’t care about any of this stuff? The only people that I oppose are hypocritical WN/alt-righters

    Why should I show any sympathy or understanding for people that absolutely refuse to show any sympathy or understanding for anyone else?

    Within its original context I am clearly referring to why I should have sympathy or understanding for WN/alt-righters who are unable to have any sympathy or understanding for other people. I am not referring to white people as a whole, and I think this is very clear from what I originally wrote. It is up to you to clearly read and comprehend the arguments that I am making without rushing to type out a rebuttal which may not even be addressing the right thing.

    That being said; while I am not against white people, at the same time I will not make the argument that white people are victims in the modern context. As I have said before, it was western nations that got this whole globalization thing started through colonization, and now it is western nations that will have to deal with the unexpected fallout. This is not me making a moral argument against white people that they deserve cultural and racial dissolution; rather I am making a practical argument that causally speaking, the forces which prior generations of white people put into play are now coming back and negatively affecting present day generations of white people.

    Most importantly; all of this is basically abstraction. In reality, the majority of white people are either supportive of multiculturalism and globalization, or they are completely indifferent. In fact these two factions of white people are even greater when you compare younger generations to older generations. This situation becomes even more complicated when you consider the vast amount of interracial relationships and friendships there are these days between whites and non-whites. The existence of these kinds of relationships alone makes the widescale implementation of any kind of “hard-white” (play on words of the phrase “hard right”) policies nearly impossible to implement. The political willpower is simply not there amongst the masses of white people. Put it this way; even a surprising amount of the alt-right cannot control their asian woman fetish, so why do they expect that the rest of the deracinated white population would be able to reject race mixing or any other kinds of benign interaction with other races? Therefore practically speaking; why should I bother advocating for white rights when even the majority of white people themselves do not care?

  309. Truth says:
    @joe webb

    When the Ice returns in a thousand years or so, if Whites are still here, we will have to move South into Africa. Bye, bye Africans.

    You don’t have kids anymore, so I guess the last 47 of you can sneak over unobtrusively.

    • LOL: Talha
  310. @GammaRay

    1. you are trying to state that the majority of whites did not benefit historically and present from colonialism both directly and indirectly due to their own indentured/slave status

    For most part of european history, yes. More indirectly than directly.

    And always the same thing. Many chineses [elites and middle class] ALSO has been benefited by their exploitation of their poor [without into account nonhuman animals treated as piece of trash].

    The difference among europeans and the rest of the globe is that the first has been due all morally wrong things in a global scale.

    In practical terms we know that this is basically untrue because whites live very comfortable lives and have created very successful countries within the lands that their ancestors took from indigenous people

    Wrong. Even without natural resources extracted from other places whites would be able to create a good society without industrialization/ and demographic explosion.

    Again, most people are domesticated. Blame the dog to kill foxes by the sadistic pleasure of their ”owners” still is not the ideally correct reasoning.

    ”Indigenous people” has not been a always harmonic group of peoples in new world. Indeed, what white invaders did always happened in Americas. YES. it’s not excusable. The main problem of your discourse here, seems, you are accusing ONLY whites to have a dirty past or overlooking them, even it’s not totally wrong give a special consideration because, again, ”white mistakes” are globalized and now everyone, included China, have a chance to emulate them.

    You’re trying to solve a problem creating other, and resulting in injustice.

    Whites has been benefited, firstly, is a very simpleton narrative. TODAY, very recently, because to live and exploit a new lands no doubt was a very difficult work specially for regular white people, and again, they has been exploited, have a miserable life, specially working classes.

    I think its highly disingenuous that you are massively understating the complicity of the average westerner both historically as well as in a modern context when it comes to the materialization and continued propagation of western civilization around the globe.

    And i thought if you are doing the same about your people and your government. I’m not. I’m trying to analyse this complicated stuff in neutral ways, i’m favor of reparations, critical analysis of, not just white culture and history, but ALL human culture and history, but, there are FACTS which are indifferent to our feelings. Feelings are important to build values, but firstly it’s important grasp the facts.

    One of the fundamental reason Haiti has been this super-problematic country have little to do with past slavery because already have time enough to haitians themselves rebuilt their nation, isn’t**

    This racial and behavioral realities are very important to try to truly put a end in the successions of stupid human conflicts.

    Ok, i understood your points about WN/alt righters hypocrisy, something which are epidemic among most tribalistic people, regardless if it’s about nation, race or ideology. And i also have attacked this hypocrisy and actually i’m bored about all this bullshit.

  311. @GammaRay

    That being said; while I am not against white people, at the same time I will not make the argument that white people are victims in the modern context. As I have said before, it was western nations that got this whole globalization thing started through colonization, and now it is western nations that will have to deal with the unexpected fallout. This is not me making a moral argument against white people that they deserve cultural and racial dissolution; rather I am making a practical argument that causally speaking, the forces which prior generations of white people put into play are now coming back and negatively affecting present day generations of white people.

    Again, most people specially in civilized places, are domesticated. They has been selected to be tamed. Of course there are: levels of domestication; types of domestication. Most whites are domesticated and not so intelectually bright. Yes, they are the fundamental victims of modern context because they has been accused to to all globalized western mistakes outside their mainland/Europe and used as a sacrifice [all its culture has been completely vandalized, its original lands, the most important, its physical security is in progressive danger], as if spanish people decided to exploit new lands beyond the Atlantic ocean… it was entirely a elite plan, as often tend to be. We can say that at the same time, people has been/tend to be guilty and not. They are guilty because they are complacent with their elite [as a dog is complacent to their owners atitude towards foxes]. But because we are not all the same, perfectly capable to reach the reason, we can’t blame people before to blame elites, specially when the people is domesticated.

    Therefore practically speaking; why should I bother advocating for white rights when even the majority of white people themselves do not care?

    One of the main point most alt righters seems incapable to understand.

    If you want to preserve your race, organize yourselves, but many them believe that whites in the near future will awake up and start to think as they do, maybe, maybe not…

    The movement of white people awakening about many lies [combined with truth] have happened, it’s very slowly, but the situation is becoming so critical…

    What is happening with whites is injustice, it’s the same what’s happened with blacks when they were enslaved in Americas [and also in Africa]. I’m against all type of injustice, that’s my reason.

    You don’t/did not answer about jews…

    • Replies: @GammaRay
    , @GammaRay
    , @GammaRay
  312. AaronB says:
    @GammaRay

    Thanks for your intelligent comments. I don’t agree with everything but I’ve made many of your arguments myself, to no avail.

    Good luck consistently applying HBD arguments to WNs. It’s amusing to watch, but it probably won’t get you anywhere, as HBD functions as a myth not a legitimate theory.

    Similarly, Yan Shen is an ultra nationalist Asian, and his post is extremely flawed and inconsistent, but it’s point is to selectively sift the evidence in order to create a myth validating a rising power. That’s natural, and we should be indulgent.

    In that vein, I think your ideas about how the Chinese would have treated native Americans are a bit too naive. Yes, they probably wouldn’t have massacred and pillaged them in that way, but there would have been some kind of exploitation. It surely would have been gentler, but not an equal relationship.

    The sad thing is, whites really are being attacked and demonized in the West, even if that’s the result of forces they unleashed, and even their own culture.

    I think it’s normal that some whites are making one last bid to revive the old culture, but these things never work. Still, you can’t blame them. And for them, it isnt helpful to point out the negative aspects of white culture which helped create current conditions. They’re being demonized already, and they too want a new myth. All power grabs need self-validating myths.

    I think it would be better if instead of trying to revive the old Faustian culture, with its crimes and unstable extremism, it would be so much better to allow it to die a natural death, and let something new, or perhaps old and pre-Faustian, emerge.

  313. @AaronB

    Similarly, Yan Shen is an ultra nationalist Asian, and his post is extremely flawed and inconsistent, but it’s point is to selectively sift the evidence in order to create a myth validating a rising power. That’s natural, and we should be indulgent.

    Eh. His Asian triumphalism can be pretty frustrating at times to me as I feel it embraces various half-truths in order to craft a narrative – in that sense, quite similar to hardcore WNs. I also think that is often driven by a sense of wounded personal self-esteem which can lead to motivated reasoning.

    I wouldn’t care much for that but I think that it can lead to errors in understanding, and is therefore counter to epismetic virtues: it doesn’t lead to knowing the world better. And primarily, I want to understand the world better and hopefully contribute my little bit to human knowledge.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  314. @anony-mouse

    Newsflash: East Asians are good at math!

    Never heard that before!

    Yan, the differing cognitive profiles of whites and East Asians is an interesting topic to research. And does bear significantly on the future trajectories of Asia and the West.

    However it’s weird for you to pitch this skew as being insightful, especially as something HBDers overlook. As you note, Lynn notes it. Sailer’s noted it. It’s in all the SAT and PISA data. I don’t know a single HBD believer who thinks whites and East Asians have the same cognitive profile. (As I’ve pointed out a few times, if a trait is not fixed but varies in among individuals within racial groups, then it must vary between racial groups. This is just math.) Most of us simply aren’t as obsessed with the topic as you are. This crisis the West faces is debunking the “everyone’s the same” and “diversity is our strength” nonsense that is allowing our home to be flooded with foreigners–particularly low IQ, culturally alien ones, incapable of supporting civilization. (We’re still trying to get across HBD 101.)

    But the “Asians are good at math” is so obvious it’s obvious not to just HBDers, it’s obvious at the level of a sitcom trope.

    ~~~

    Finally you’re “fundamental” insight here:

    I hope I’ve convinced you that the correct way of thinking about HBD is fundamentally along the lines of the math/verbal split more so than along the lines of overall IQ or g, not that those concepts don’t have their relevant areas of use.

    is just plain wrong. General intelligence utterly dominates HBD issues from a global perspective. If you have one variable to talk about both for the performance of races and individuals … that’s it.

    Even in the rise of East Asia, the more mathematical profile of East Asian IQ is a pale 3rd. Not only are you wrong about IQ being #1, you haven’t even figured out what’s most important specifically about Asians with respect to whites (and others) that helped Asia surge forward:

    #1 — High IQ.
    #2 — East Asian personality profile. High conscientiousness, cooperation, obedience, hard working “grinder” personality.
    #3 — Mathematical orientation.

    1+2 have actually dominated in helping Asia catch up. Even if Asians had the same IQ math/verbal profile as whites, they would have managed a very similar surge and catching up. It’s really about IQ supercharged by East Asians high capacity to follow orders and work hard.

    Without #3 Asians wouldn’t be dominating quite as much in high tech. But the East Asian capacity for conscientious hard work would still make them a manufactoring powerhouse–including high tech. (Most East Asians aren’t designing anything, they are putting stuff together, but doing it far better, with fewer defects, less complaining and at lower cost than can be done in the West, much less the NAMy 3rd world.)

    Where the Asians math/verbal skew will really come to the fore isn’t so much the catching up they’ve done, but the going forward, where we’ve seen–first in Japan, then Korea, but eventually we’ll see from China–where they actually get in front and produce more advanced products. (Not just better products produced cheaply, but actually more advanced products.)

    The future looks pretty bright East Asia. (If China can avoid supremacism and bossing everyone else around). But the truth is even there the math/verbal split isn’t the main reason. The main reason is because the West is committing suicide via diversity. If East Asian nations avoid that … they’ll win by default.

  315. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yan Shen is definitely motivated in large part by wounded self esteem, as we can see by his long history of comments on unz, Sailer before unz, and Steve Hsu’s site. He’s actually mellowed out a bit, which is hopeful.

    Yeah, it can definitely get in the way of clear thinking, but this kind of thing probably isn’t going to go away, human nature being what it is.

    We can smile at it indulgently, tolerate it as psychologically necessary for many people, and create a parallel effort that really tries to understand a much more complex and fascinating world, with its constant changes and sudden reversals.

    After all, nothing any of us will say will have any effect on WNs or any other kind of N, although it can still be amusing to show their fallacies, and it can attract people more interested in thinking clearly.

    People interested in clear seeing are rare anyways, and that requires a certain amount of detachment from the struggle for biological survival, which none of us can be entirely free of. Biological survival demands myths and narratives, and we can only partially free ourselves from that.

    It’s hopeful that you’re interested in clear understanding and knowledge. I can agree with that for sure.

    But too much clear understanding is probably incompatible with biological interests, and maybe we should moderate even the pursuit of knowledge.

    Although I bet you part ways with me there :)

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
  316. Yan Shen says:
    @AaronB

    Yan Shen is definitely motivated in large part by wounded self esteem, as we can see by his long history of comments on unz, Sailer before unz, and Steve Hsu’s site. He’s actually mellowed out a bit, which is hopeful.

    You uh also left out the part where I’m wounded by John Derbyshire’s love life, or something like that according to commenter AnotherDad.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  317. AaronB says:
    @Yan Shen

    Relax, Yan, nothing you’ve ever said makes me think the issue with you is romantic failure.

    You may be developing an obsession with uh John Derbyshire, tho. I can relate to that. He can be pretty smug.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  318. @AaronB

    You may be developing an obsession with uh John Derbyshire, tho. I can relate to that.

    Dat strong math IQ makes even boys gay for him?

    • LOL: AaronB
  319. myself says:
    @Talha

    The Examination System would be the Chinese IQ test before modern times.

    The concept of The System dates back to before there was a unified Chinese Empire, possibly from before the Warring States period. The Warring States had its version of it for all the combatants, but the Imperial Examination System was formalized during the Ch’in Dynasty. It was in use until about 1912.

    ANYONE could enter, even many non-Han took the exam. No income or property requirements. It tested both theoretical knowledge and practical. Natural Philosophy (what would later be called “Science”), Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy, Military practices, Administration, etc. The questions were the toughest the government could devise.

    NO reserved slots for passing, NO regard for “legacies” (that your father was a brilliant official didn’t mean squat if YOU were unqualified), NO favors. Any cheating caught was given punishment ranging from official public disgrace for your sponsors and family, all the way to execution.

    Grading was done “blind” – the grader did not know the name of the test-taker, and could only grade part of his test, just in case the calligraphy was recognizable. Multiple graders for every test-taker. So it was rather impartial.

    If you passed, you could then assume a (very) junior official posting, wherein you would have to prove your skill and competence to advance to higher postings. Though you started at the lowest level, you were now a government official, and you’d be on the path to bigger things, according to your ability.

    If that’s not an ancient version of an IQ test, I don’t know what is.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Talha
  320. Ron Unz says:
    @myself

    The Examination System would be the Chinese IQ test before modern times.

    The concept of The System dates back to before there was a unified Chinese Empire, possibly from before the Warring States period. The Warring States had its version of it for all the combatants, but the Imperial Examination System was formalized during the Ch’in Dynasty. It was in use until about 1912.

    Actually, it’s quite possible that all written examinations used everywhere in the world were ultimately derived from the Chinese model:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#p_3_4

    • Replies: @Truth
  321. Talha says:
    @myself

    Excellent comment – thank you for the information. I hope others were paying attention also!

    Peace.

  322. Truth says:
    @Ron Unz

    Nope.

    Came from Wakanda, Doggie, look it up.

    • LOL: Yan Shen
  323. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Yeah – GammaRay is laying it down fairly nicely – pointing out the inconsistencies and what not.

    Very nice to observe.

    Peace.

  324. Yan Shen says:
    @AaronB

    Similarly, Yan Shen is an ultra nationalist Asian, and his post is extremely flawed

    Of course having repeated this numerous times, you’ve yet to point out what the actual flaws in my article are. On the other hand, my article has almost 50 cited references and makes an argument rooted in real data!

    Now some people think I’ve over-reached somewhat in describing how societal differences can be attributed to cognitive differences. On the other hand, that there exists a math/verbal split among East Asians surely must be one of the relatively well established facts of the psychometrics literature and one that I argue is under-appreciated, especially in the context of HBD.

    That this empirical reality has no real life consequences would be rather astounding in my opinion.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
  325. Yan Shen says:
    @Yan Shen

    Hmm didn’t get a chance to finish editing my prior comment. The main thrust of my article was less about racial differences in cognitive aptitude and more about how the math/verbal split poses a significant hurdle for constructs such as overall IQ or g, when it comes to analyzing tail end talent.

    Now all of this other stuff about wounded this and hurt that, I think Freud or someone came up with the notion of psychological projection, but perhaps I’ll uh leave it to others to decide for themselves… ;)

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  326. AaronB says:

    Oh boy, we got you riled up : )

    There’s lots wrong with your essay, but the main thing is you cant distinguish persistense in problem solving, a function of motivation, from innate ability in an IQ score. So any effort to describe IQ differences, whatever they are, as innate, rather than a historically contingent function of motivation, can only be a myth, however understandable.

    It seems far more likely that the current Asian split is just a result of the intense focus on catching up technologically with the West.

    True for all groups. I don’t believe whites have a special “creativity gene” like WNs say. I think whites just wanted power and technology more than anyone else for a while, and Jews are obsessed with wealth and power, as I well know, growing up among them.

    These are all historical moments that are not timeless. Look into “cycles of civilization”. Each ascendant civilization thinks its moment is forever.

    There probably are innate differences between groups but we can’t know what the true breakdown of motivation and ability is.

    As for blacks and browns, we can’t know how much their lower IQs are just a function of disinterest in technology and modernity and the like.

    What we do now is that a groups reputation for laziness tracks well with its IQ. Isn’t that weird?

    I’m an equal opportunity leveler.

    Anyways, the argument is complex and touches on many fields and I’ve no wish you rehash it here. If you’ve any interest search on my handle.

    Ron Unz also makes some very pertinent remarks with regard to this in his IQ essays.

    I am very happy that this will be the Asia century – I’m an admirer of traditional Asian culture and I’m fascinated by how this will mix in with technology and what new cultural forms will emerge.

    So, I wish you all the luck in the world Yan Shen.

    I’m sorry I can’t say more, but there’s no way I can match your emotional investment in this subject, and I’m happy for anyone who likes your narrative to believe in it if it satisfies them.

    I think Freud or someone came up with the notion of psychological projection

    You ain’t fooling anyone :)

    • Replies: @Talha
  327. Factorize says:

    How could this topic have seemed so obscure? I, for one, and I suppose others were not fully versed in the East Asian M/V tilt.
    It would also be of interest to know what the tilt might be on visiospatial.

    One suspects that if the tilt had been V/M of the same magnitude that the economic trajectory of much of Asia would have been very different. Considering the extreme value placed on this skill, I will be very interested in seeing future reports of M GWAS.

  328. Factorize says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Panda, this is an astonishing idea that it could have been partially caused by Neanderthal introgression.
    As we left Africa, we immediately encountered Neanderthals that were at least half a million years genetically removed from humans and could transfer the genetic variants that helped them survive in the Europe. This is science to keep an eye on. How much of an IQ boost might they have been able to give us?

  329. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    The sad thing is, whites really are being attacked and demonized in the West, even if that’s the result of forces they unleashed, and even their own culture.

    How do you demonized a demon that have unleashed atrocities everywhere since their civilization begin to gain power?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  330. @Yan Shen

    There are two hypothesis i thought to explain why despite we have [thank white tard] 1,3 billion chinese in the earth planet, true geniuses has not been found among them at least right now [in contemporary era], big ones and not truly [cognitively] gifted people who have improved already invented/existent technology [if modern chinese arts and philosophy seems not great at all]. The historical reason why ”chineses” stop to be creative as their ancestors is that their population changed with the increasing of domestication, eliminating or reducing considerably the outsiders of gene pool.

    There are ~three fundamental types of gifted people: high achievers, brighters and creatives.

    http://www.bertiekingore.com/high-gt-create.htm

    My first hypothesis to explain why despite higher average IQ continental east asians no have produced a relatively good proportion of highly creative people is that most of their ”cognitive elite” are composed by HIGH ACHIEVERS and have very little % of creative thinkers.

    My combinatory hypothesis to explain blablabla is that higher [cognitive] intelligence alone select for better capacity to concentration/attention to details, the existent ones. Higher cognitive intelligence is basically a robust semantic memory and about general knowledge, at its surface at least. But creativity is correlated with a ”defect’ in the brain: reduced activity in the regions of brain related with memory and filtering information, aka atention capacity.

  331. I will miss the presence of Dr. Hawking.

  332. @Anon

    Non-white cultures have their share of atrocities and conflating all whites is silly. Did the Polish ever have slaves, even?

    • Replies: @TT
  333. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    I’m an admirer of traditional Asian culture and I’m fascinated by how this will mix in with technology and what new cultural forms will emerge.

    I am as well. One thing that made me sad however was reviewing some of the new architecture springing up in the major cities in China. Unfortunately, much of it is a break from the past and has Post-modern written all over it. Some are beautiful, but most that I came across look no different than something that would get constructed in Paris, New York or Dubai.

    Sad really…

    But perhaps it’s as Neil Postman wrote; hyper-technology does not so much as co-opt, but rather casts away other rivals to its cultural paradigm.

    The emerging global consensus – in the minds of those who are fully on board the “Technopoly Express” – on exactly what gives value to society, what society’s ultimate purpose is, and even on the artistic impressions that these values derive is quite telling.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  334. Talha says:
    @TT

    Thanks for those links. This is quite a real phenomenon. The first time I came across reports of people that lived seemingly normal lives without much brain matter were in the writings of Rupert Sheldrake. It does indeed throw a monkey wrench into materialist assumptions of mind and consciousness.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @TT
  335. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    There’s definitely a lot of truth to what you’re saying, but I think we’ll start seeing not so much beauty as a subtly different sensibility. For instance, there are these shiny and modern bars in Japan that in the west, would be exactly the kind of cold and alienating place I would avoid, but somehow the Japanese have made into these warm, intimate, and cozy places. It’s just not my imagination – I’ve discussed it with Japanese. It’s technology meshing with a different sensibility. Also how neon is tacky and garish in the west, but somehow warm and cool in Asia. And it’s not just Japan – I’ve sen this in Taiwan, Thailand, and a bit China.

    The large mega projects are “prestige” – they serve a different function. Alongside that, I am hoping that a “humanization” of technology might occur, not so much beauty and grandeur, more like atmosphere. Look into “forest cities” being built in Asia, although I don’t know enough about them to judge.

    If East Asia manages to humanize technology and introduce a new sensibility into it I think we can all celebrate. Beyond that, what inventions will they make, for what purposes, and how will it be integrated I to life? I wonder. Even if nothing, humanizing technology will be enough.

    • Replies: @Talha
  336. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    If East Asia manages to humanize technology and introduce a new sensibility into it I think we can all celebrate.

    Definitely agree there. Maybe I should be more optimistic in this regard. After all, they are just started to spread their wings relatively recently with the concept of hyper-technology so it is no surprise they are copying some of those that have been flying for a while.

    Maybe once they’ve been flying for a good while, they’ll come up with their own unique flight patterns*.

    Peace.

    *Note: Just talking about flight reminded me how much I love the beautiful way East Asian cultures have produced those elaborate & magnificent kites.

  337. TT says:
    @Talha

    You can find more cases by searching. Google seem to get worst, throwing up unrelated rubbish frequently now.

    According to that Cambridge physicist, West didn’t want to recognize such shocking phenomenon, as it means a whole lot of Western researches & theories are debunked.

    People still much prefer to dwell in discussing brain size & neurology aspect to quantify IQ. But medical evidences is human doesn’t required brain to live normally.

    And in many cases, some small child with brain not yet fully develop already exhibit great ability or talents. Eg. Mathematician Terence Tao. His head seem not big. And Einstein brain is smaller than normal.

    https://pumpkinperson.com/2015/05/28/einsteins-brain-size/amp/

    http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Tao.html

    When Terry was two years old his parents… saw him teaching five year old children to spell and to add numbers and, ..he replied that he had been watching Sesame Street on television.

    More cases, some can play piano so well naturally as a child without training, do something like a well experienced expert. Many remember their past lifes…

    https://m.theepochtimes.com/10-outstanding-cases-of-detailed-verified-past-life-memories_1778495.html

    Old Scriptures have recorded how one can recall past lifes through training the mind to recollect backward day by day, yr by yr, life by life. Personally i have quite a number of friends can do that through meditation practice, they see many past lifes, until world destroy and recreate in cycles. But don’t ask me to give evidence, just my sharing, those unbelievers pls ignore don’t need make nasty comment. Thks.

    • Replies: @Talha
  338. Talha says:
    @TT

    According to that Cambridge physicist, West didn’t want to recognize such shocking phenomenon, as it means a whole lot of Western researches & theories are debunked.

    Correct, because scientism has its own dogmas that cannot be relinquished, for that would mean scientists (the oracles of our Postmodern age) don’t have the answer to everything. Shock of shocks!

    People like me and you don’t mind a world that contains mysteries or even a little – gasp – magic! But it scares the hell out of certain others to think there are things beyond their ability to comprehensively comprehend…

    http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20140916-mystery-fairy-circles-defy-explanation

    Peace.

  339. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    For the expelling countries—especially Czechoslovakia and Poland—the use of terror against their German-speaking populations was intended not simply as revenge for their wartime victimization, but also as a means of triggering a mass stampede across the borders and finally achieving their governments’ prewar ambition to create ethnically homogeneous nation-states.

    https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-European-Atrocity-You/132123

    KMT did massive atrocity to China people, & Taiwan indigenous people too(white terror), yet they have no slave. Its too foolish to quote slave as excuse.

    Czech had their own story to tell. Europeans were committing atrocities among themselves when competing for dominant, US & UK were the eminent hypocrite & mastery mind behind. Once settled, they gun for the world, till this moment.

    US Nato are still heaping wars & havocs, you need better reason to defend the white blindly. They elected their leaders, connived & approved their actions by been silent. I am not saying all whites are bad, its just a generalization of their majority deeds.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  340. @TT

    I am descended directly from KMT. Yes, there was corruption, but much of Taiwan’s wealth and prosperity comes from the decisions and the necessary actions of the KMT.

    I don’t blindly defend anyone; I just think that generalizing atrocities to a race is inaccurate when in many ways, the fault lays with humanity rather than any specific grouping of humanity. And of course, whites have been responsible for much of the modern world – I don’t think that can be denied and for a period of time, they had something akin to absolute power and some abused it. Absolute power corrupts, as they say; and I am not certain that another race would not also have been corrupted by absolute power.

    The Chinese have been relatively less genocidal, yes, and I think that Confucian culture has been an essential part of that. But its not like, for example, that Koxinga didn’t mass execute a lot of surrendered Dutch men either and force women into concubinage. The Qing Manchus genocided the Dzungar. The Mongols slaughtered millions in their conquest across the world.

    Its not like murder and genocide were unique properties to “whites.”

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @TT
  341. TT says:

    The Qing Manchus genocided the Dzungar. The Mongols slaughtered millions in their conquest across the world.

    Yes, Manchus & Mongols had slaughtered Hans Chinese & invaded others.

    So is it a “sad” case that you are making an attack & demonized Chinese for pointing out Qing Machus & Mongolia deeds?

    The sad thing is, whites really are being attacked and demonized in the West, even if that’s the result of forces they unleashed, and even their own culture.

    Why should one be “sad” if others merely pointed out the wrongs of majority whites(US & Nato warmongers) that they unleashed miseries to the world for last few centuries until now with no respite, with a unrepentant colonial culture as aaronB reckon? Yougov polls showed over 40% are still proud of their ancestors cruel greedy colonial deeds. Given a chance, they would be glad to relive that glory, no? Go read PM May speech to US congress.

    It should not be stigmatized as an attack or demonized of whites collectively for calling a spade as spade. Why should we make it like US, any criticism of jews or Israel is antisemitism, or bcos Ron is a good guy giving us a platform here.

    The whites* are still waging wars & subversion in ME, Asia, East Europe & Africa, slaughtering millions in a civilized modern world without been critically condemn & punished. As war criminal Albright said, a million Iraqi life is worthy collateral damage to blood for oil.

    War criminals like Bush, Obama, Blair, Sarkosky, Kissinger, Clintons…are all walking free while ICC is charging browns & blacks, poor Serbs too(oh Serbs are “white” so ICC is fair afterall?). And Russians are “white” too under US Nato intense threat, so white is afterall a victim? Some whites are more white.

    Its indeed very SAD that no significant whites have bother to uprise against all these war crimes, overthrow these warmongers. But many are cheering them on, dying for another genocide on Iran & NK even in unz.

    Now someone even making it a “sad” case to call a demon as demon, bcos Czech don’t have a chance to own slave.

    *all whites US, UK, Nato, Canada, Australia(Nz), Israel, joint by Scandinavian like Swedes & some East Europeans, are overwhelming representing entire white race.

  342. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The KMT example is just to show as a sinophile, im ready to point out its dark history. Should that sadden anyone that im to be blamed in demonize Chinese? KMT descendants may be, but don’t stigmatize it.

    KMT is fighting an ideology, and never relinquish China. Indeed it make Taiwan prosperous. But US/Jp puppet green DPP is destroying Taiwan with secession pushing, fulfiling US wish at its people perils. Sure this remark sadden DPP supporters, but demonizing Chinese?

    In 1962, Taiwan had a per capita gross national product (GNP) of $170, placing the island’s economy squarely between Zaire and Congo. By 2008 Taiwan’s per capita GNP, adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP), had soared to $33,000 (2008 est.) contributing to a Human Development Index equivalent to that of other developed countries.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  343. @TT

    Nothing can sadden the Greens, they push for an impossible secession pushing while simultaneously having no will to fight. Its completely mystifying. They live in their own universe where the more gay marriage you allow, the more powerful you become?

    • Replies: @TT
    , @TT
  344. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Green Pres Cai YW most probably controlled by US. But its majority Taiwanese that elected her & Green party, that reflect their opinion – secession. LBGT is a US lobbyists policy stuff into everyone throat, Spore gov promoting LGBT too even there is still a penal code/law criminalize sodomy, how irony.

    A well traveled Taiwan retired uni professor(not in politic) i befriended for some years harbour such thoughts that China leaders are beyond redemption cruel communist so secession is beyond doubt. And Japanese is such benevolent colonial master that will guaranteed to defend & defeat China soundly with superior army.

    And he insisted KMT had destroyed Taiwan economic as traitors, depleted reserves & heap up debts, esp under Pres Ma YJ. Once Green Chen SB & Cai YH took over, Taiwan recorded unprecedented growth continuously with many good policies benefiting people.

    If a professor has such strong belief, what’s more about uninformed normal people.

    Btw, is his opinion true and reflecting the majority? It just sound too good for me to believe.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  345. @TT

    A well traveled Taiwan retired uni professor(not in politic) i befriended for some years harbour such thoughts that China leaders are beyond redemption cruel communist so secession is beyond doubt. And Japanese is such benevolent colonial master that will guaranteed to defend & defeat China soundly with superior army.

    Ah hahaha. Yes, unfortunately I know someone with similar beliefs in Taiwan, although he’s more pessimistic about the success of his benevolent Japanese masters. But he would beg, so much, to be a Japanese colonist.

    Majority? No, I don’t think so. Obviously overall, its not doing well as hilarious, President Tsai Ing-wen is actually less popular in Taiwan than Xi Jinping(which, someone i know merely accuses as Communist infiltrators in Taiwan!).

    I’ll say the overall mood is really just despair. Despair leads people to all sorts of weird and wild beliefs, probably the most toxic, pathetic and hilarious being the desire to beg to be part of Japan.

    You know, I vaguely can understand it, and I’m sure you have seen it too. You go to Japan and everything is nice and pretty, the air is clean and the water is safe, the girls are pretty and polite. And then in China its smog and rudeness and boiled water, and the nurse yells at you to hurry up and is all businesslike in hospitals. And then you think, well, they are East Asians like us, what’s wrong with us? Why can’t we be all Japanese?

    For me, the answer is that Japan is like a living museum of, essentially, heavily fake people. There’s so much ritual, so many rules, and so little real hope; if you’re a young man, you’re basically hoping to check all of the right boxes, get into the right company, and live and die according to some script. And I’m sure that a lot of Chinese would be happy with that, but there’s a lot who wouldn’t be – there’s a lot more ambition, a lot more love for risk-taking, and a lot more love for, well, conflict and struggling.

    You know, in Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I don’t identify with Zhuge Liang like most people do. I always identified with Zhou Yu, because damn if you can’t do everything you can in life, be pretty successful and then some pretty boy with a crane feather fan comes and beats you at everything.

    • Replies: @TT
  346. Factorize says:

    res, you see this one? Whoa!

    This is the best MRI of the global artificial intelligence mind at work that I have seen.

    The entire internet network of the China/East Asian coast lights up before solar night. Does everyone shut down their computer there at night fall? Impressive!

    I was also quite impressed with what I see in India and Europe. Most of Europe lights up at internet max; when China fully ramps up its internet uptake, it will be the global market leader.

    Also, yeah Mexico and the coasts of South America! Keep up the good surfing! Good going Santoculto.

    Somewhat disappointed with what I see for America, though at least quite a few keep the web torch burning 24/7.

    Africa is another region where “could improve” seems to apply. It’s not that easy to tell when African solar internet day or night begins. How could there be so little web traffic?

    You could construct a “Real Life National IQ” score based on statistics such as internet traffic (as seen in the below figure) that likely would be highly correlated to “National IQ” (in particular using the full IQ SNP set).

    • Replies: @res
    , @Santoculto
  347. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    have you ever heard of human alive without brain? So even brain doesn’t matter.

    Once a Cambridge uni physicist told me, during world wars, there were records that when soldiers scalp were blasted open, some actually has no brain inside.

    Today, there are still cases people alive without brain, they live normally but only found out when they had inspection in hospital.

    Could you give me your opinion on this in Neurology aspect? Thanks.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  348. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, Chinese are joking that Pres Tsai Ing-wen & Trumps were Communist infiltrators, a gift fallen from sky.

    You go to Japan and everything is nice and pretty, the air is clean and the water is safe, the girls are pretty and polite. And then in China its smog and rudeness and boiled water, and the nurse yells at you to hurry up and is all businesslike in hospitals.

    While i work in Jp, i could see darker sides. When night fall, many homeless swamped in to train stations to sleep in carton boxes in winter. Old folks scavenging rubbish bins for food, or frequently caught shop lifting as they felt ashamed to beg.

    I was marveled that no dustbin seen yet streets were so clean. My jp colleague laugh, no no they did litter, i try threw a litter, some old cleaner jump out from nowhere swept it up. Everywhere so clean, fresh and efficient, but artificial cold. But still very impressive nice country.

    The girls arent pretty mostly, its a hoax that sadden me, only in AV you find babes! They got radish legs…same in Korea, im cheated, its plastic surgery & photoshop wonders.

    China, hahaha, nothing beats GZ for fithy, HK in rudeness, Macau for crimes. Does China hospital still yell? It was pretty high std when i visited decade ago. But level of Dr sucks, they wanted to use me as lab mice by injecting herbal abstract but couldn’t answer my quiry on its purity.

    For me, the answer is that Japan is like a living museum of, essentially, heavily fake people. There’s so much ritual, so many rules, and so little real hope; if you’re a young man,

    Sadly that’s what i seen too, just buy them enough sake, and they will start crying telling their untold story… A sad society in a unbearable pressure cooker, dead and hopeless for both young & old. Sake is their condolence.

    No doubt China is most interesting place to live now. My brother enjoy so much that he spent all New Year visiting his workers faraway home, FSR impressed him. Its a forever renewing country.

    And that pretty boy with a crane feather fan lol, paid the price of his life for going against fate 天意 . Cáo Cāo could had united 3 kingdoms to spare everyone wars without ZG, a genius without wisdom.

  349. @TT

    Need link to evidence, though I think that most of the brain is used for skill development with only the brainstem being absolutely needed.

    • Replies: @TT
  350. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    According to that Cambridge physicist, West didn’t want to recognize such shocking phenomenon, as it means a whole lot of Western researches & theories are debunked. many unrecorded cases.

    http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/07/miraculous-cases-of-people-who-lived-without-a-brain/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3293259/Baby-born-without-brain-amazes-doctors-celebrating-second-birthday-says-Mummy-time.html

    And in many cases, some small child with brain not yet fully develop already exhibit great ability or talents. Eg. Mathematician Terence Tao. His head seem not big. And Einstein brain is smaller than normal.

    https://pumpkinperson.com/2015/05/28/einsteins-brain-size/amp/

    http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Tao.html

    When Terry was two years old his parents… saw him teaching five year old children to spell and to add numbers and, ..he replied that he had been watching Sesame Street on television.

    More cases, some can play piano so well naturally as a child without training, do something like a well experienced expert. Many remember their past lifes…

    https://m.theepochtimes.com/10-outstanding-cases-of-detailed-verified-past-life-memories_1778495.html

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  351. res says:
    @Factorize

    Interesting. Thanks.

    More on that graphic: https://web.archive.org/web/20140606062629/http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/paper.html

    One thing about graphics like this. You really need to normalize for population density. Otherwise that is mostly what is being conveyed.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  352. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    In practical terms we know that this is basically untrue because whites live very comfortable lives and have created very successful countries within the lands that their ancestors took from indigenous people

    Wrong. Even without natural resources extracted from other places whites would be able to create a good society without industrialization/ and demographic explosion.

    No, you are wrong and this is self evident if you look at the demographically thriving global anglosphere. Where native americans, aboriginals, etc etc once lived, there are now millions of whites (meanwhile the indigenous peoples of these places have become a tiny minority). The numbers don’t lie. You are trying (very disingenuously) to claim that historically speaking the white proletariat were just as much victims as anybody else and it was the european elite that were really to blame, but honestly this line of reasoning is overly reductionist and unconvincing. The indigenous people that once occupied north america had it much much worse (at the hands of whites) than the white proletariat had it from their own elite. It bothers me that you are trying so hard to conflate the real issues at hand instead of simply calling a spade a spade. Yes many whites were used and oppressed by their own elites; but this doesn’t change the fact that from a macrocosmic point of view, whites en toto were the global oppressors of indigenous peoples around the world. The fact that whites were herded by their elites to act in a certain way is not a concept that is mutually exclusive with the fact that whites also benefited materially from this arrangement as well. The fact that whites benefited materially in myriad ways from this arrangement is a strong argument against your “white proletariat were equal victims too” stance.

    You’re basically a white nationalist who is trying to gaslight and put forth (unconvincing) apologetic arguments that soft pedal the brutal reality of western colonialism by trying to act as if the white proletariat shared equal victimhood with the very indigeneous people that they conquered and displaced. That is rich!

    Again, most people are domesticated. Blame the dog to kill foxes by the sadistic pleasure of their ”owners” still is not the ideally correct reasoning.

    Using this kind of flimsy reasoning basically absolves everyone except for the elite of any moral agency and responsibility. Does this sound wise to you?

    ”Indigenous people” has not been a always harmonic group of peoples in new world. Indeed, what white invaders did always happened in Americas. YES. it’s not excusable. The main problem of your discourse here, seems, you are accusing ONLY whites to have a dirty past or overlooking them, even it’s not totally wrong give a special consideration because, again, ”white mistakes” are globalized and now everyone, included China, have a chance to emulate them.

    Im going to debunk this line of reasoning that WN/alt-righters always like to trot out using your all’s own logic. I’m going to call it the “two wrongs make a right” fallacy. Basically you are trying to make the argument that europeans colonizing north america and killing off the natives is somewhat justifiable since the natives were already killing each other off. Ok, fair enough:

    This must also mean that immigrant crime in the west is also excusable since whites do shitty things to other whites all the time. Makes sense doesn’t it?

    Why bother getting mad about interracial relationships between black men and white women? white men already fuck white women all the time so what difference does it make if black men do it too?

    I guess this also means that if there is ever some large dustup between european powers in the future (perhaps european civil war, nationalists vs globalists/EU supporters?) then china would hypothetically be justified in invading europe. I mean, europeans are fighting each other anyways; what does it matter if china enters the fray and fights them all instead?

    Hopefully you can see the gaping hole in this common WN/alt-right fallacy and understand why it rings so hollow. You are also delusional if you think that I am “singling out” whites for colonizing the entire world (typical WN trying to play the victim. “The WN cries in pain as he strikes you”). The only thing I have done is (correctly) point out that western culture has both good points and bad points, and one of those bad points is that white people appear to have a rather strong propensity for large scale aggression and strong tendencies for wanting to dominate, subjugate and control other people. WN/alt-righters have no problem (accurately) singling out other races for certain tendencies and negative predilections so don’t cry when the same thing happens to you.

  353. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    China may become a global hegemon, yes. But nowhere near the same way that whites historically have been. Chinese people simply don’t have it in them to aggressively police others and to demand complete cultural and mental obedience to whatever standards they wish to impose on others. If the chinese end up ruling the world someday, it will be in a passive manner (tributes anyone?) as opposed to being overt. If you really think that the chinese are going to go on a homicidal rampage and genocide different races from their homelands and force the remainder to start speaking chinese then you are delusional. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. When it comes to the chinese, there is nothing historically or culturally equivalent to what whites have done. Whites are generally extroverted and as a result they focus their energy externally, the chinese are generally introverted and as a result they tend to focus their energy internally. If anything, the biggest victims of the chinese are themselves (civil wars, revolutions etc etc).

    Just to make it clear to you, and anybody reading. I am not a chinese apologist, and there are tons of things which I find boneheaded and stupid about chinese culture; that being said, I am applying historical, cultural and HBD reasoning equally here, and I am coming up short when it comes to trying to justify the bizarre argument that chinese are going to suddenly become like white people and try to physically and culturally colonize everybody. I’m sorry but this is basically a very lame form of projection. Furthermore, if you had any familiarity with chinese culture or chinese people then you would know how absurd this sounds. Are blacks going to suddenly start jamming out to mozart and playing classical instruments en masse? You already know the answer to that, and likewise the likelihood of that happening is the same likelihood that the chinese are actually going to bother going out of their way to fuck with people either in terms of genocide or in terms of forcibly changing culture. Its simply not how they’re wired. If the chinese are in a position of power, they will demand respect, compliance and tribute. That’s about it. In this regards, they are very straightforward and businesslike without any frills. White “power” functions like kinetic energy in that it violently strikes outwards and creates change, chinese “power” functions like gravity in that it softly pulls you inwards into its orbit, big difference.

    You’re trying to solve a problem creating other, and resulting in injustice.

    The only injustice here is unevenly applying standards. If its ok to dispassionately criticize blacks, muslims, jews, asians, etc then that means that whites are fair game too. As far as I am concerned, nobody gets special treatment here. Either we are politically incorrect about everybody or we are politically incorrect about nobody at all.

    Whites has been benefited, firstly, is a very simpleton narrative. TODAY, very recently, because to live and exploit a new lands no doubt was a very difficult work specially for regular white people, and again, they has been exploited, have a miserable life, specially working classes.

    You think the white working classes had it bad? How do you think the native americans felt? ouch!

    And i thought if you are doing the same about your people and your government. I’m not. I’m trying to analyse this complicated stuff in neutral ways, i’m favor of reparations, critical analysis of, not just white culture and history, but ALL human culture and history, but, there are FACTS which are indifferent to our feelings. Feelings are important to build values, but firstly it’s important grasp the facts.

    you dont seem neutral to me; and this is pretty apparent in the kind of arguments which you try construct.

    This racial and behavioral realities are very important to try to truly put a end in the successions of stupid human conflicts.

    yes, I agree with this. Lets dispassionately and honest consider the behavioral realities of the various races without trying to cherry pick desireable and undesireable traits

    Ok, i understood your points about WN/alt righters hypocrisy, something which are epidemic among most tribalistic people, regardless if it’s about nation, race or ideology. And i also have attacked this hypocrisy and actually i’m bored about all this bullshit.

    just because hypocrisy is endemic amongst tribalistic people doesn’t mean that the WN/alt-righters are off the hook and doesn’t make it “ok” when they do it, which is what you seem to be trying to low key imply

  354. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    Again, most people specially in civilized places, are domesticated. They has been selected to be tamed. Of course there are: levels of domestication; types of domestication. Most whites are domesticated and not so intelectually bright. Yes, they are the fundamental victims of modern context because they has been accused to to all globalized western mistakes outside their mainland/Europe and used as a sacrifice [all its culture has been completely vandalized, its original lands, the most important, its physical security is in progressive danger], as if spanish people decided to exploit new lands beyond the Atlantic ocean… it was entirely a elite plan, as often tend to be. We can say that at the same time, people has been/tend to be guilty and not. They are guilty because they are complacent with their elite [as a dog is complacent to their owners atitude towards foxes]. But because we are not all the same, perfectly capable to reach the reason, we can’t blame people before to blame elites, specially when the people is domesticated.

    Oh of course how could I have been so mistaken. These poor little spanish conquistadors were being mislead by the elite and weren’t just going to the new world to gain wealth, a harem of native women and free land. You erroneously believe in the false dichotomy that either the people or the elites must be blamed; when the reality of it is that sometimes both the people and the elites can be blamed.

    What is happening with whites is injustice, it’s the same what’s happened with blacks when they were enslaved in Americas [and also in Africa]. I’m against all type of injustice, that’s my reason.

    No, what is more accurate to say is that what is happening to whites is the law of unintended consequences. If an injustice is happening; then we should blame the ancestors of whites (the european colonizers and all of those who directly and indirectly contributed to the multi-century phenomena which was european colonization of the world) for bringing about this situation. Prior generations of whites created this mess, and present generations of whites are the ones who will have to deal with it.

    Secondly, is what is happening to whites truly considered injustice? Lots of whites are A-OK with multiculturalism and immigrants. Lots of whites are even married and have kids with non-whites. Do you think that these people would consider the present state of affairs “injustice”? Lots of other whites are completely indifferent and dont care either way. Do you think that they would consider the present state of affairs “injustice”? In the current context, injustice is a very ambiguous term. The current state of affairs is only unambiguously considered an injustice by those on the alt-right right; but to everybody else the reality of the situation is much more subjective.

    You don’t/did not answer about jews…

    An oversight on my behalf, my answer is below:

    Because many them are desperated. Well, based on this logic, you must be angry or indifferent also about jews, isn’t**
    Even more, because they participated with whites in most of ”white people” crimes IN other lands.

    Sounds to me like you are basically trying to shunt off responsibility from white people and onto jewish people. What you are essentially doing is called a red herring. Here is what I think about this. In a cultural sense, white people are generally domineering and aggressive with or without jewish involvement. A perfect example of this is the US military. Sure there may be zionist jews at the very top who are getting the US involved in wars in the middle east for the benefit of israel, but when it comes to the rank and file of the US military there are also plenty of white guys who are chomping at the bit to go and kill and conquer the world, they are a dime a dozen. The fact that there are jews who may be manipulating these white guys for their own nefarious purposes does not negate the fact that many whites by themselves (without jewish manipulation) appear to be naturally attracted to aggression and conquest.

    I think WN/alt-righters sometimes like to act as if whites are not the REAL bad guys, but rather its just the jews making whites do bad things; but from interacting with WN/alt-righters and seeing the kinds of things that they say and do, its quite apparent that whites can be bad all on their own, with or without the jews (consider the twisted rhetoric of joe webb for example). As I have said before; whites possess a certain energy and verve which is conducive towards large scale aggressive and ambitious enterprises; jews seem to be efficient at occasionally manipulating this energy for their own gains, but this doesn’t magically absolve whites of their own crimes.

    Funny how you are trying to lambast me for blaming whites as a group, but then you try to bait me into blaming jews as a group!

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @Santoculto
  355. GammaRay says:
    @AaronB

    In that vein, I think your ideas about how the Chinese would have treated native Americans are a bit too naive. Yes, they probably wouldn’t have massacred and pillaged them in that way, but there would have been some kind of exploitation. It surely would have been gentler, but not an equal relationship.

    Serious question; are you actually familiar with chinese history or even chinese people? The chinese historically have not been interested in things outside of china. Therefore they would not have even cared about people outside of china enough to exploit them. In fact if the west had not “awoken” them, the chinese would probably still be in their long slumber. Why else do you think the ming dynasty made the decision to shut itself off from the world voluntarily? I am not defending the chinese for any emotional, personal reasons; I am just (correctly) pointing out that due to historical, cultural and HBD reasons, chinese people are generally not the type to overtly exploit others. If anything they enjoy exploiting each other. From everything I have read regarding the (admittedly scant) evidence of some kind of pre-columbian contact between amerindian and chinese culture, it appears to be a peaceful and mutually beneficial one that revolved around commercial and cultural transactions as opposed to a conquerer/subjugated dynamic. The difference between our opinions is that you believe (without any strong evidence or argumentation underlying this belief) that the chinese definitely would have exploited the amerindians in some fashion; while I am making the argument that it would have been a possibility, but overall an unlikely one in light of other pieces of pertinent information which negates that possibility.

    Equally important is the fact that you assume that all amerindian cultures were primitive, unorganized and completely incapable of resisting attempts to exploit them. By doing this you are attempting to remove agency from the native americans for the purposes of bolstering your assertion that the chinese would have “definitely” exploited the amerindians in some way. However we know that this is patently untrue since it is self evident that there were many sophisticated and relatively strong amerindian civilizations which would have been capable of dealing with the chinese in a more or less equal manner. As I said above though, you probably purposely omitted this fact in order to strengthen your own case

    The sad thing is, whites really are being attacked and demonized in the West, even if that’s the result of forces they unleashed, and even their own culture.

    I think it’s normal that some whites are making one last bid to revive the old culture, but these things never work. Still, you can’t blame them. And for them, it isnt helpful to point out the negative aspects of white culture which helped create current conditions. They’re being demonized already, and they too want a new myth. All power grabs need self-validating myths.

    I don’t think its sad at all. Its a natural cycle, cause and effect. Whites more or less brought this on themselves, so why should I be sad when they end up sowing what they reap? Do you feel bad when a serial murderer and rapist goes to prison? I know I don’t, and this situation is not much different. Do not mistake my indifference for hatred of whites or disliking them; quite the contrary. I am just saying that I am not going to try to stick my neck out and help protect people from consequences which they brought upon themselves. More importantly as I keep saying; the majority of whites are either OK with the current state of events or they are completely indifferent. They seriously dont care, so why should I care? Is it really sad if even most whites themselves aren’t really sad about it? This is not some petty form of rhetoric on my behalf, Im being very serious when I pose this question. The alt-right needs to get it through their heads that they do not represent the majority of white people, and that the truth is, the majority of white people don’t really care either way.

    Its absolutely helpful to point out negative aspects of white culture which brought about current conditions. Its necessary to have accurate and rational criticism so that people can have a properly adjusted worldview and hopefully learn from their past mistakes. WN/alt-right are already full of delusions and the half-truths that they tell themselves; their disconnect from reality is doing them no favors. I’m not going to coddle them just so that they can feel better about themselves. I am only concerned with having a truthful and logical discussion here; I am not interested in trying to soft pedal issues so that I dont hurt feelings, but conversely I am also not interested in trying to attack whites unjustifiably or give them undeserved criticism. I think its very clear from my previous comments (which you are free to check) that I have a very well balanced and reasonable stance regarding whites. Its disingenuous that you seem to be implying that i’m just irrationally trying to pile on whites

    There is something new which is emerging in the white supraconsciousness, but this is occurring organically and in fact is being birthed a result of adverse conditions. Ironically by me giving fair and accurate criticisms of white culture, it is helping to bring about this trend which you yourself desire. Only by withholding criticisms (and thereby encouraging delusions) would I be retarding this progress and artificially keeping an obsolete and outdated worldview alive. So…which way do you want it? Decide already

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Factorize
  356. AaronB says:
    @GammaRay

    Well, you seem a bit more of an aggressive e Chinese nationalist than I thought, and I’m not really interested in getting into a heated argument with you. Suffice it to say I find your characterization of Chinese relations with foreigners as non-exploitative to be based on a highly selective reading of history and the creative interpretation of fact.

    I will make a few points, though. China never focused on technology, yet is now obsessed with it. An obsession with technology is a profound rupture with tradition. China traditionally produced balanced and relaxed people, yet now seems to produce large numbers of unstable obsessive cranks who are highly aggressive. So China has clearly been profoundly altered by its traumatic encounter with the West.

    How deep this goes is as yet unclear. I am personally cautiously optimistic that enough of the good old culture of China remains intact that the Chinese century will be a boon to mankind, but I’m not entirely sure.

    My point is, your thesis that traditional Chinese culture is a safe guide to future Chinese conduct (even as you softpedal the traditional culture) doesn’t seem so persuasive to me – there has been a radical discontinuity, a rupture, and it’s unclear how deep this goes.

    The modern West itself is the product of a radical discontinuity with its traditional culture – this process may repeat itself in China.

    As for sympathy for white people, you are seeing multiple generations of white people as a single organism, a somewhat amusing but entirely emotion driven reification of an abstract entity so you can vent your spleen. “White people” is an abstraction – the specific white people who so wounded your civilization no longer exist. You cant hurt them anymore.

    Personalizing vast historical processes, and blaming ordinary white peasants for being swept up in processes outside of their control, seems immature and unintelligent unless you’re primarily interested in emotional gratification and cultivating a narrow egotistical view of the world.

    It may well come back to haunt you. Right now, whites are disorganized and exhausted – a natural turn of the historical cycle. Push your hubris too far, you may find yourself facing a revitalized foe that will prove too formidable for you.

    Why not break the cycle? Today, Europeans seem significantly less bellicose than the Chinese.

    Anyways, I think I mistook who you were, so good luck, and do as you wish.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  357. Factorize says:
    @res

    You are right about the idea to correct for population density, though
    sometimes it is helpful to see the bird’s eye view or in this instance the Martian’s eye view.

    Yet, I am worried sometimes that by normalizing everything reality becomes distorted,
    only in another way. Uncorrected data is how real life is experienced.

    Something else that I find interesting about this graphic is that you can develop an inkling of how the internet is being used by the human collective mind. In China, the entire coast into the mainland turns to red only just before internet dusk. Workers come home from the factory and surf to unz.com.

    Yet, with India you notice that much of the South turns red earlier in the day. Here the call and other info-tech centers are actually using the internet as part of their daily business model. What this suggests to me is that India is better integrating technology into its knowledge based economy. Surprisingly, India is the only major internet region with this pattern of technology use.

    With a knowledge based technoeconomy, the internet should be a central feature of the work experience.

  358. GammaRay says:
    @AaronB

    If you think the tone I took with you is aggressive; it is only because I am returning your own condescending and all knowing tone with interest. Make your arguments dispassionately and stick to the facts and we can have a productive conversation.

    You are wrong. I am not chinese, and I am not a chinese nationalist at that. It speaks volumes about your own mindset when you want to indirectly attack my credibility with the intended ad hominem of calling me a chinese nationalist just because I am using very practical, logical and no non-sense reasoning. You speak like a WN/alt-righter who gets all of his perceptions and facts about the world from alt-right echo chambers on the internet and as a result only regurgitates that which he has heard from other people without having any actual personal experience to base his opinions on.

    Once again, I will ask you. Have you ever had extensive contact with actual chinese people? Do you have more than a shallow familiarity with chinese culture beyond the cliched tropes thrown around the alt-right? I’m sorry to burst your bubble about your notion of some mythical “unstable obsessive cranks who are highly aggressive” chinese supermen who will take over the world, but the truth is that chinese people as a whole are rather beta and passive. The only people that truly believe that the chinese are capable of implementing some kind of harsh global dictatorship are people that have no idea what chinese people are really like. If you were familiar with what chinese people are really like then you would already be aware that they generally lack the social chops and cunning to be able to competently administer a global empire. Simply put, chinese people are not as “energetic” as western people and as such they seem to lack the willpower and drive to go and actively “civilize” others. If china does become a global hyperpower in the future, it will be a much more hands off and impersonal hyperpower compared to the in your face, aggressive hyperpower role that the US currently plays.

    People always want to talk up the china threat but always their perception is based upon ignorance of how truly different chinese people are from white people. Let me ask you some very simple questions:

    -What kind of governments are run by black people? Does the nature of said government more or less correlate with your general perceptions of black people that you have met in real life?

    -What kind of governments are run by asian people? Does the nature of said government more or less correlate with your perceptions of asian people that you have met in real life?

    -What kind of government is run by white people? Does the nature of said government more or less correlate with your perceptions of white people that you have met in real life?

    WN/alt-righters always want to pump up the spectre of the chinese boogeyman but can’t seem to explain where the chinese are going to suddenly get all this aggression and verve from. If they met enough chinese people in real life, they would quickly realize how low energy and relatively passive chinese people are compared to white people. Even relatively aggressive chinese people (I have met a few) often lack the savoir fair and social cunning to be able to effectively utilize their aggression towards social dominance anyways. That being said, its not my intention to badmouth chinese people here, I am only mentioning these observations because they are tangential to the topic at hand.

    As for sympathy for white people, you are seeing multiple generations of white people as a single organism, a somewhat amusing but entirely emotion driven reification of an abstract entity so you can vent your spleen. “White people” is an abstraction – the specific white people who so wounded your civilization no longer exist. You cant hurt them anymore.

    Personalizing vast historical processes, and blaming ordinary white peasants for being swept up in processes outside of their control, seems immature and unintelligent unless you’re primarily interested in emotional gratification and cultivating a narrow egotistical view of the world.

    lol, you are basically butthurt at this point that in my last comment I hit you with a bunch of arguments that you had trouble refuting, as a result you skated over them and just wrote out all this stuff to me instead. Just because you chose to ignore the points that I had put out doesn’t invalidate them. It just means that you were unable to refute them thats all.

    Once again, it is absurd how many times I have to repeat myself. I have nothing against white people, nothing at all. The majority of white people are generally good people that have no ill-will towards others. Its comical that you are trying to construe my previous comments as some kind of hateful and spiteful diatribe against white people. Anybody reading this is free to read my comments for themselves and come to their own conclusions. I’m quite sure though that they would be disappointed by the lack of actual vitriol that I show towards whites. Anyways, you’re basically trying to say that I’m anti-white just because I’m unwilling to speak in defense of western nations against negative situations which they themselves brought into fruition. Its not enough that I remain neutral (and that’s exactly what my position is, dispassionately neutral), rather in order to be considered not anti-white by you, I must actively speak in defense of whites instead. Yeah, whatever dude. Your obsession with my own mindset and how I perceive the situation is basically just a defense mechanism on your behalf in order to help make yourself feel better about the dismal reality that the west currently faces. I can tell you this with certainty; no matter how much you want to (falsely) project certain mindsets upon me, it doesn’t change the situation on the ground. Western nations are currently doomed, and this is a result of centuries long chains of causality that are finally coming to fruition. How you or I feel about this has little to no impact on the outcome.

    On that topic, you might as well say that the majority of whites are also “anti-white” by your standards as well. My general feeling with regards to the fate of white people is not much worse than how your average white person feels about the matter, which is something that I have brought up numerous times, yet for some reason you don’t want to address the elephant in the room; which is that the majority of white people simply don’t care, OR they are actually supportive of current trends. I’m sorry but you are not the spokesperson for all white people, and the majority of white people would not even accept you, or some other random WN/alt-righter on the internet as their spokesperson either. I’m guessing you are trying to make me the enemy since its easier to demonize me than it is to demonize the masses of white people who simply don’t agree with how you think.

    It may well come back to haunt you. Right now, whites are disorganized and exhausted – a natural turn of the historical cycle. Push your hubris too far, you may find yourself facing a revitalized foe that will prove too formidable for you.

    lol who cares dude. I highly doubt that whites will be able to come back and unify in the way that they were at their peak, but even if they do then so what? You think I care? If it happens it happens. Im not going to cry about it. You keep trying to pidgeonhole me as some anti-white with an axe to grind but you don’t realize that I’m actually pretty impartial to the whole thing. You’re just mad because I won’t jump on the white victimhood train that’s all

    • Replies: @AaronB
  359. AaronB says:
    @GammaRay

    Ah yes, objectivity – of course :) I don’t doubt it. Just pure neutrality. Perhaps a disinterested scholarly interest in the truth?

    Of all the masks we don, objectivity has to be the most insipid. But whatever.

    Yes, I have extensive experience with Chinese people, and I’ve met plenty who are more aggressive than whites, with a stronger will to power. At the moment, that is. Nor do I think China is some kind of bogeyman, as my comments show. Nuance, nuance. Your view of Chinese people seems remote from reality, and rather fairy-tale-ish.

    I’m not trying to “save” white people, just engaging in what I now have come to regard as peculiarly and disturbingly SJW-like behavior, and advocate for a peaceful and fair world.

    It’s a bad tendency of mine that I keep on relapsing into – I think it’s because of too much time spent in America and socially integrating with liberal white people. Which reminds me that I am long overdue for an extended stay out of America. I gotta work on making that happen soon.

    The main weakness of your position is the same one that afflicts so much of modern thinking – you take a moment in time, and make it universal. Incidentally it’s the same weakness as displayed by the author of this article.

    And I’m not interested in getting ino a lengthy historical discussion with you – if your reading of history has not yet convinced you that nothing is more basic to this world than change, and that the character of nations undergoes dramatic changes snd even complete reversals within short spaces of time, then my feeble efforts will hardly make a dent in such adamantine mental armor.

    I agree that white nations are reaping what they have sown in an impersonal karmic process – separate from the question of sympathy and guilt, tho. And I fear that China may follow the same path if it isn’t careful – we are shaped by our enemies, and often grow up to become just like our abusers.

    As for whether most whites are OK with it, I think there’s far more division than you say – and the process is only beginning.

    The SJW in me regrets that whites will probably suffer abuse and then get angry again, and the cycle sill repeat.

    Anyways, anyways. I shouldn’t have gotten into such a futile discussion with you.

    These days I’m trying to cultivate an attitude of dispassionate acceptance of the world in all its turbulent strangeness and wonder, and not nurse impossible dreams of fairness and peace that, I now realize, are leftover traces of the Western delusion of progress which has somehow managed to infect me despite my continually arguing against it.

    I’m partially inspired by Taoism – that creation if the hideous Chinese bogeyman I am always going on about.

    I will leave you to return to your highly objective passionate partisan advocacy that is totally neutral, and that’s informed by your attitude of completely not caring what happens, leading you to write long impassioned screeds on the subject.

    I have to go make plans for a long vacation.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  360. GammaRay says:

    Yes, I have extensive experience with Chinese people, and I’ve met plenty who are more aggressive than whites, with a stronger will to power. At the moment, that is. Nor do I think China is some kind of bogeyman, as my comments show. Nuance, nuance. Your view of Chinese people seems remote from reality, and rather fairy-tale-ish.

    Sorry but turbo autist chinese anons that you meet on r/hapa or r/asian masculinity don’t count ;)

    Do chinese people have a strong will to power? Absolutely. However will this culminate in them genociding entire races and forcing everybody to learn mandarin? I highly doubt this. Many chinese want china to become a hyperpower; but I doubt that many chinese are interested in genociding entire races and displacing the remainder/enslaving them. And this is really the crux of what we are arguing. You seem to insist that the chinese will potentially be just as voracious, greedy and cruel as whites have historically been, and I am disagreeing with this notion. If anything, the vast majority of chinese would rather have people look up to them out of admiration instead of looking up to them from a position of subjugation. Its not very good for “face” if you have to force people to give you it at gunpoint; kind of defeats the purpose.

    It seems to me that the only reason you want to speculate that china could become a cruel, exploitive hyperpower is for the simple reason that you want to exonerate whites from their own bad behavior in the past. I feel like this really comes down to an ego thing for you, more or less.

    The main weakness of your position is the same one that afflicts so much of modern thinking – you take a moment in time, and make it universal. Incidentally it’s the same weakness as displayed by the author of this article.

    Wrong. People and culture change throughout time, this is true. However people and culture do not change completely, which is the problem with your paradigm. You believe as though all things are mutable and exist as cycles which everything is equally subject to. However in actuality, people, culture, genetics etc are only partly mutable, while the situations which they are subject to fill in the rest of the picture. So your basic paradigm is only a half-truth

    And I’m not interested in getting ino a lengthy historical discussion with you – if your reading of history has not yet convinced you that nothing is more basic to this world than change, and that the character of nations undergoes dramatic changes snd even complete reversals within short spaces of time, then my feeble efforts will hardly make a dent in such adamantine mental armor.

    yup, change is the most basic thing in the world. The west is currently changing, so why are you protesting since change is inevitable? The west existed in a pristine state of civilizational growth and development which lasted approximately 500 years or so and was in large part built on the backs of vanquished indigenous people and cultures around the world; now that the model is no longer sustainable it looks as if the whole edifice is about to collapse. You are trying to imply that whites are going to collectively rally together and reverse this development, but if you really believe in the inevitability and importance of change, then why don’t you just accept the current state of affairs?

    If the “uptrend” for the west lasted approximately 500 years, then who knows how long the downtrend will last. Especially in the globalized age that we live in now; eventually not just whites, but potentially everbody will end up voluntarily diffusing their own cultural and genetic heritage; and I reckon this will happen sooner rather than later. Do you really think that the west can get though its current down cycle before the racial singularity happens? If you ask me, I think that this is just the beginning of the west’s down cycle, we still probably have a few more centuries to go, at the very least. It will be very interesting to see how the world looks in a racial sense in just a few hundred years from now

    I agree that white nations are reaping what they have sown in an impersonal karmic process – separate from the question of sympathy and guilt, tho. And I fear that China may follow the same path if it isn’t careful – we are shaped by our enemies, and often grow up to become just like our abusers.

    The west is not china and china is not the west. They are two separate entities coming from two different places. We are influenced by our enemies, yes. But we are not wholly shaped by them.

  361. GammaRay says:

    As for whether most whites are OK with it, I think there’s far more division than you say – and the process is only beginning.

    I didn’t say that most whites were OK with it. I said that the majority of whites are EITHER ok with it or completely indifferent. Most likely the vast majority of whites are completely indifferent and have other things to fixate on besides RAHOWA 1488.

    Is the process only beginning? IMO I think that there will continue to be a low grade “awakening” amongst whites which will amplify in the future, but it will never become a full on white power/kick out all the immigrants type of sentiment. At least in the united states; I can’t speak for europe. Probably the primary reason that the majority of whites would never sign on to a full on white racial consciousness project is because they wouldn’t want to associate themselves with the matthew heimbacks, richard spencers and andrew anglins of the world. It is because of the far right extremists who go full neo-nazi/act like legit hate groups that the majority of whites are turned off by their message (“blacks are genetically inferior! mexicans are scum! with jews you lose!! whites are the best and we colonized the entire world so fuck you!! etc etc”). The far-right simply cannot discard their own intense racial chauvinism, lower their pride (actually hubris) and just tone things down a notch. Thankfully though, because of their own inclination to always go full retard, it scares away whites that would otherwise be somewhat sympathetic to their message. I would reckon that nobody really wants to live around white nationalists, probably not even other white nationalists lol.

    The SJW in me regrets that whites will probably suffer abuse and then get angry again, and the cycle sill repeat.

    suffer abuse you say? Whites started this entire thing with colonization and were the original abusers. Nobody originally abused whites and then made them colonize and abuse the entire world, whites chose to do this on their own volition. You seriously have a skewed worldview if you really think this way

    These days I’m trying to cultivate an attitude of dispassionate acceptance of the world in all its turbulent strangeness and wonder, and not nurse impossible dreams of fairness and peace that, I now realize, are leftover traces of the Western delusion of progress which has somehow managed to infect me despite my continually arguing against it.

    lol, Im absolutely amazed at your pretension. You actually believe that only western people are capable of concocting dreams of fairness and peace? lol ok. WN racial chauvinism FTW again

    I’m partially inspired by Taoism – that creation if the hideous Chinese bogeyman I am always going on about.

    Incorrect. Your only flaw is that you make arguments which aren’t really supported in a holistic sense. Your sole rationale for assuming that the chinese will become global genociders and destroyers of culture (aka the western style) is based upon an overly broad application of the concept of yin and yang. You assume that because the west has been overly yang in the past, that now china will be the one that will become overly yang while the west becomes more yin. While in a general sense I believe this is true, I do not subscribe to the idea that china is going to act the same way the west did when it was in a position of power. Just because dynamics shift over time does not mean that the basic intrinsic nature of the entities involved completely changes; rather, the dynamic shift acts upon and merges with the cultural, genetic, etc basis that existed beforehand, thus culminating in the birthing of new realities into existence.

    I would only be concerned about china turning into a genocidal global war machine if the chinese were inherently yang to begin with; however seeing as how the chinese are generally more yin than westerners are, this strongly suggests that the coming infusion of yang energy into the chinese supraconscious will result in a more balanced, more benign and less extreme result for the entire world, compared to the legacy which the west left, seeing as how the west was originally more yang tilted to begin with even before it began its colonial misadventures.

    I will leave you to return to your highly objective passionate partisan advocacy that is totally neutral, and that’s informed by your attitude of completely not caring what happens, leading you to write long impassioned screeds on the subject.

    Im indifferent to how events on the macro level play out, because I correctly recognize that perhaps there is nothing I can do about them either way. However I do enjoy verbally jousting with people on the micro level, hence that is why I bother writing out “long impassioned screeds”.

  362. GammaRay says:
    @AaronB

    Sorry I forgot to tag you on the previous two posts, just tagging you here so that you’re aware that I replied.

  363. @TT

    My apologies, been busy. Will reply later this week, should note that epoctimes is falun gong fluff though.

  364. @Factorize

    Humans are megalomaniacal beasts who are destroying this beautiful planet… must be humanly exterminated and reshaped from its basis…

  365. @GammaRay

    Oh of course how could I have been so mistaken. These poor little spanish conquistadors were being mislead by the elite and weren’t just going to the new world to gain wealth, a harem of native women and free land. You erroneously believe in the false dichotomy that either the people or the elites must be blamed; when the reality of it is that sometimes both the people and the elites can be blamed.

    I don’t know where i stated this dichotomy, both must be blamed, BUT in different ways BECAUSE elites are those who decide things, the people, tamed ”puppies” [and often opressed ones] just obey and follow the rules, as well happen with chineses… many horrible things happened in China during so-called ”cultural revolution” and without into account many horrible things ”chinese government” have done against regular chinese people AND non-human living beings which live here/in this country.

    No, what is more accurate to say is that what is happening to whites is the law of unintended consequences. If an injustice is happening; then we should blame the ancestors of whites (the european colonizers and all of those who directly and indirectly contributed to the multi-century phenomena which was european colonization of the world) for bringing about this situation. Prior generations of whites created this mess, and present generations of whites are the ones who will have to deal with it.

    It’s too but this don’t cancel the fact that many people are paying for crimes they don’t commited, i’s not a false dichotomy… ;)

    Again, the fundamental point you don’t get and it’s also explain your ”own” people. Most people or regular people are tamed [regardless their IQ, it's important to take note] and/or incapable to change the world which are created by their elites, the masses are often exactly like the dispersed cattle in farm, they are not organized, and often they don’t care too much about it, the world has been shaped by little groups of pretty organized, energic and practically intelligent and evil or merciless people. Yes, i’m not saying that we need stop to blame whites but also to stop to only blame them, not just because ALL people tend to be, based on your moral metric, culpable anyway in some moment of their histories, but also because masses of humans, of individuals, tend to be both, innocent at some extent and guilty too.

    Secondly, is what is happening to whites truly considered injustice? Lots of whites are A-OK with multiculturalism and immigrants. Lots of whites are even married and have kids with non-whites. Do you think that these people would consider the present state of affairs “injustice”? Lots of other whites are completely indifferent and dont care either way. Do you think that they would consider the present state of affairs “injustice”? In the current context, injustice is a very ambiguous term. The current state of affairs is only unambiguously considered an injustice by those on the alt-right right; but to everybody else the reality of the situation is much more subjective.

    It’s just like to say

    that bee is ok because wasps. They has been deceived, totally deceived, it’s a type of brainwashing, but not in the way most people believe. People believe there are more explicit homossexuals today because they has been brainwashed to be, not exactly like that, but because the culture today is less stupidly ignorant about this, BUT again, it’s don’t prevent people to engage in many intelectual apophenic stuff and even internalize and normalize it within their lives, it’s happening right now in west.

    Yes, because certain levels of rationality and horrible global history of europeans, many whites become agreeable about their own dispossession, and many them even call this Kharma, but this massified deception is not the enlight western but to prepare it to (((some-ones))) who archictet all this and seems the multiculturalism has been imported to far east too, it’s a global domination.

    They accept this because many them can’t think in multiple perspectives or it’s not enought to reach the rationality. Another two aspects (((thoos))) have used to attack white european resistance is:

    essentialism and existentialism/near to individualism life style

    the first has been used to show who, at some extent, racial features are superfluous, at hyper-realistically practical way. Intelligence, wisdom [qualitative intelligence] or whatever, kindness wins have a blue eyes. So they have created also this forced dialogue where many people decide to choice for the essence over the appearance.

    Existentialism make people live the life most in the present and in considerably more self-serviced way. It’s not exactly bad we have our rights attended and pay attention to our desires but when we overpass this totally above common or collective rights we are just acting in very selfish ways.

    Materialism is other way to sustain a excessive individual-centric life style even materialism can be more aligned with racial or at priori decorative/recognizable features than essentialism.

  366. @GammaRay

    Sounds to me like you are basically trying to shunt off responsibility from white people and onto jewish people. What you are essentially doing is called a red herring. Here is what I think about this. In a cultural sense, white people are generally domineering and aggressive with or without jewish involvement. A perfect example of this is the US military. Sure there may be zionist jews at the very top who are getting the US involved in wars in the middle east for the benefit of israel, but when it comes to the rank and file of the US military there are also plenty of white guys who are chomping at the bit to go and kill and conquer the world, they are a dime a dozen. The fact that there are jews who may be manipulating these white guys for their own nefarious purposes does not negate the fact that many whites by themselves (without jewish manipulation) appear to be naturally attracted to aggression and conquest.

    Just strawman…

    I’m just putting the word JEW in this debate.

    I’m not trying to sanctifing whites, on average, or collectively speaking, even because i’m one of those here that is always criticising not just whites but also conservatives. And yes, i don’t believe that without jewish plague whites cannot be a plague too, but we still don’t know correct knowledge about the extension of jewish involvement even before second war world. For example, Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear attacks… The big difference is that jews and elites which are aligned with them created a way to blame whites, as a people and as race, and taking off from their own backs their own responsibility. It’s exactly like a pretty smart high functioning psychopath that commit crimes but find a very clever way to blame their ”allies’ or even the weakest side, the people, while they themselves, in very chutzpathied way, appear as the saviors .. of their own crimes.

    Yes your last sentences in this part just showed that you’re misunderstood me when you think i’m advocating to avoid any type of blaming against ”white people”.

    I think WN/alt-righters sometimes like to act as if whites are not the REAL bad guys, but rather its just the jews making whites do bad things; but from interacting with WN/alt-righters and seeing the kinds of things that they say and do, its quite apparent that whites can be bad all on their own, with or without the jews (consider the twisted rhetoric of joe webb for example). As I have said before; whites possess a certain energy and verve which is conducive towards large scale aggressive and ambitious enterprises; jews seem to be efficient at occasionally manipulating this energy for their own gains, but this doesn’t magically absolve whites of their own crimes.

    AS IF WHITESS ARE NOT REAL BAD GUYS… even if it’s right that tribalists are characteristically tendentious when the debate it’s about ”their own” people, your words are showing maybe a dishonest point of views where again, whites are only ones to be blamed and jews… well, jews are just misunderstood angels. There are very bad, bad, average [most people], good, very good people in ALL human populations. It’s based on how worried about REAL moral issues you are. I don’t think american whites are soooo worse than chineses, on avg, even because there are different issues where chineses appear to be pretty bad, for example, treatment of other living beings and nature. And yes, you don’t need remember me about industrialization… as a possible counterargument.

    Unfortunately most of pretty kind people are quasi-prey, they too good to their own, hopeless to help us to truly solve problems without creating others, and wiser people, when kindness is combined with intelligence, specially in the qualitative ways, tends to be pretty rare.

    jews seem to be efficient at occasionally manipulating this energy for their own gains, but this doesn’t magically absolve whites of their own crimes.

    Occasionally…

    do you believe jews don’t dominate western world right now and they are not involved IF NOT totally responsible for all creepy sttuf have happened and will happen in western** tell me..

    Societies works in very rigid hierarchic ways, unfortunately, so if your people want to dominate another they just need focus in most important places, where real decisions are taken. It was what jews and specially jewish intellectual mafia has done since the beggining of XX century. Whites as a people don’t become mad with fervent self-hating by nothing. and yes, i don’t disagree with you about all western pendencies and i hope you don’t about yours.

    Another thing is the idea of security highly technological societies tends to create to regular and impressionable people. People don’t decide the future of nations, only about their own, at very parochial dimension.

    Brazil a place where most people are not THAT white-european people has been deceived to believe in multiculti. The same for black, hispanic, east asian and others in Murrica but still in different perspectives where most of this people and less of east asian, using often in subconscious way all this post-mordem inventions and or machinations to take advantages over the people who buildt all this empire. And in Murrica, as well in Canada, progressivism seems higher among east asians, with for example a lot of interracial marriage..

    • Replies: @GammaRay
    , @GammaRay
    , @GammaRay
  367. Factorize says:
    @GammaRay

    I agree that the Chinese really do not fit into the “first among equals” geopolitical structure that has been a central pillar of Western Civilization for the last several thousand years. This could turn out to be one of the more surprising revelations (to some) in the 21st Century.

    There is a growing expectation that China will ascend to its rightful place as the global superpower. However, even though this would be realistic from looking at the statistics, the actual long term cultural behavior of China is not congruent with such an assessment. Veni, Vidi, Verti is more descriptive of past (and probably future) Chinese behavior.

    What exactly does China have to gain with interacting with the rest of the world considering that they are at the top of the IQ pyramid? Whoever has won the title of global superpower has been rewarded with the burden of trying to help some of the least developed and most dysfunctional societies on the planet.

    It should be no surprise to anyone on this forum that the 21st Century will be the century for helping Africa. However, it seems highly unlikely that even the most powerful global superpower will be able to cope with this challenge. It should then be hardly a surprise to anyone that at some point China will decline the high honor of global supremacy.

    The more likely course ahead is for China to continue to focus on being an economic superpower: finding products and technologies that make all our lives better, often in industries that Western would not be competitive. The past grudge that smart people made our lives worse no longer rings true. In this new technology economy, great ideas create enormous wealth and the cognitive wealth is shared. The world has gained such a great advantage in having China becoming an integral member of the global community. If they can create a new form of technology that makes technology more humane, we will all be the richer for it.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    , @GammaRay
  368. Yan Shen says:
    @Factorize

    It should be no surprise to anyone on this forum that the 21st Century will be the century for helping Africa. However, it seems highly unlikely that even the most powerful global superpower will be able to cope with this challenge. It should then be hardly a surprise to anyone that at some point China will decline the high honor of global supremacy.

    Hasn’t China been engaged in massive infrastructure building in exchange for resources trade with Africa in past years? Unlike Western powers which first brutalized African nations and plundered their resources, then later pivoted to the other end of the spectrum and simply dumped financial aid upon African countries while constantly hectoring them about human rights and democracy, China’s interactions with the continent seem fairly pragmatic and productive by comparison, devoid of ideological posturing. And as the Belt and Road initiative shows, China seems content to lead by example and by doing, rather than through constant talk and invading/inviting the world.

    • Replies: @Factorize
    , @Truth
  369. Factorize says:
    @Yan Shen

    I was thinking more specifically about a more robust form of engagement. This has been the Western model for thousands of years. Perhaps China can pursue a new way of engaging with these problems, though as a guess a mainly commercial model of interacting with African development likely will not be enough.

    This was exactly my point: Much of being the world’s superpower means shouldering the burdens of other people’s problems. The stress that America has faced over the last many decades largely relates to trying to help out increasingly dysfunctional societies. It is almost impossible to imagine that the Second World War (for America) was largely about sorting out the internal socioeconomic problems of what are now highly developed European nations.

    Now after all these decades the entire world (except Sub-Saharan Africa) has secured a demographically and geopolitically stable future. The large remaining question is how this future could be replicated in Africa. The demographic turn has not yet happened there, so this will be a long term struggle (on the order of a century or more). It is very unclear to me who will want to take this on. The situation in Africa has been deteriorating for some time. It is entirely possible that the rest of the world combined simply will be unable to cope with the magnitude of the dysfunction that exists in Africa. A future in which the collective resources of humanity are called upon, more so than a superpower such as China, might, though, be the best chance that we have.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
  370. Yan Shen says:
    @Factorize

    I was thinking more specifically about a more robust form of engagement. This has been the Western model for thousands of years. Perhaps China can pursue a new way of engaging with these problems, though as a guess a mainly commercial model of interacting with African development likely will not be enough.

    Uh, in case you hadn’t noticed, the American model of engagement with much of the 2nd and 3rd world has been an absolute disaster in recent decades. We’ve failed pretty miserably at trying to foist our own values upon countries culturally and institutionally ill-suited at adopting such values. Our record of invading the world and of nation building has been pretty crappy to say the least.

    And really, the American approach towards places like Africa hasn’t been much better. We dump aid on these countries often with a minimum of oversight, helping to fuel corruption, while naively demanding that the governments of these countries adopt American democratic norms, as if extremely poor countries with no real middle class and no history of anything other than authoritarian rule could somehow magically embody Anglosphere values overnight!

    American politicians in some sense are the uh 21st century equivalents of the European missionaries in past centuries, who consumed by idealistic notions of delivering absolution and salvation oftentimes did far more harm than any real good. Really, the level-headed pragmatism of the modern day Chinese almost surely will deliver more and longer lasting results and should serve as an example for others around the world of how a mature perspective on such global matters might be.

  371. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    I don’t know where i stated this dichotomy, both must be blamed, BUT in different ways BECAUSE elites are those who decide things, the people, tamed ”puppies” [and often opressed ones] just obey and follow the rules, as well happen with chineses… many horrible things happened in China during so-called ”cultural revolution” and without into account many horrible things ”chinese government” have done against regular chinese people AND non-human living beings which live here/in this country.

    Why bring up the chinese? Nobody denies that they have skeletons in their closet too. What you are doing is just a weak form of the logical fallacy tu quoque. What’s even more hilarious is that you obviously posted that video in order to elict some kind of strong emotional response in order to buffer your (weak) argument.

    Im sorry but your argument about how only the elites should ever be blamed (and not the people carrying out their orders) isn’t really that persuasive or convincing. I will use your same logic to craft an analogy to show the essential weakness of your argument:

    There is a hypothetical pakistani child grooming gang operating in britain; the rank and file of the child grooming gang are directly sexually abusing underage british females, meanwhile the mastermind of the gang has never even touched any of the females that the gang is grooming; however he is financing and organizing the entire thing from the very top. In your opinion; who is really more morally culpable here? The gangleader or his henchmen?

    It can be seen from this analogy that in actuality; it is not as easy to properly assign blame as you are acting like it is. You continue to try to push the argument that everyone else can be virtually stripped of agency, and all blame can be placed on the elite, but its clear that in real life these kinds of situations are much more messy than what you are trying to act like they are.

    No, what is more accurate to say is that what is happening to whites is the law of unintended consequences. If an injustice is happening; then we should blame the ancestors of whites (the european colonizers and all of those who directly and indirectly contributed to the multi-century phenomena which was european colonization of the world) for bringing about this situation. Prior generations of whites created this mess, and present generations of whites are the ones who will have to deal with it.

    It’s too but this don’t cancel the fact that many people are paying for crimes they don’t commited, i’s not a false dichotomy… ;)

    Once again, your understanding is flawed and there is no false dichotomy here. Present day generations of whites are paying for crimes that they didn’t commit (nowhere did I deny this, although I do partially disagree with this line of reasoning); however this is what I actually wrote:

    Prior generations of whites created this mess, and present generations of whites are the ones who will have to deal with it.

    There is no emotional rhetoric underpinning what I wrote here; what I wrote is a simply, objectively true, matter of fact statement. I am not conveying any kind of personal bias of “what I think should be true”, rather I am merely making a factual observation of the causality of events. The fact that modern day generations of whites have to deal with the the mistakes of their ancestors is something that is true, independent of any kind of moral/philosophical arguments stating that modern day generations of whites deserve to be punished in this way. The fact that you misunderstood the argument that was being made lies on you and not on me.

    Again, the fundamental point you don’t get and it’s also explain your ”own” people. Most people or regular people are tamed [regardless their IQ, it's important to take note] and/or incapable to change the world which are created by their elites, the masses are often exactly like the dispersed cattle in farm, they are not organized, and often they don’t care too much about it, the world has been shaped by little groups of pretty organized, energic and practically intelligent and evil or merciless people. Yes, i’m not saying that we need stop to blame whites but also to stop to only blame them, not just because ALL people tend to be, based on your moral metric, culpable anyway in some moment of their histories, but also because masses of humans, of individuals, tend to be both, innocent at some extent and guilty too.

    You are making the common WN/alt-right mistake of assuming that anybody who criticizes western colonialism is exclusively singling out white people; however this is not true. If the topic of this conversation were about any other race/group that was guilty of genocide/atrocities then I would have no problem objectively analyzing their culpability and potential guilt. That being said, the topic of debate within this part of the comments section has been exclusively pertaining to european colonialism, and that is why we are discussing the potential guilt of the west/white people. You are mistaken if you think that I do not hold all other people/races to equal standards.

    I know what youre basically trying to imply though, and I’m going to go ahead and spear your argument. You’re basically trying to make the argument that whites are not uniquely guilty for european colonialism because every other race has done something similar, etc etc. That being said, this is a deceptive and disingenuous argument. I will use a simple analogy to show why this is:

    blacks murder people, but people of other races murder people as well; so why should we be concerned about black crime? (Its obvious that the black murder rate is much higher than that of other races, so that is why we focus on the black murder rate as opposed to the white or asian murder rate.)

    In the same way, whites colonize people, but people of other races colonize people as well; so why should we be concerned about whites colonizing people? We should obviously be concerned about whites colonizing others (and being particularly thorough about the genocidal aspect as well) because its self evident that whites are more proficient/most inclined to colonize and genocide other people (whites colonized/attempted to colonize the entire world and genocided countless indigenous cultures). Other people are guilty of colonization and genocide, but whites do it best, and many (actually the majority of WN/alt-righters) are stupid enough to openly admit this and be proud of it as well, even though it actually indicts them on a moral/ethical level.

  372. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    Yes, because certain levels of rationality and horrible global history of europeans, many whites become agreeable about their own dispossession, and many them even call this Kharma, but this massified deception is not the enlight western but to prepare it to (((some-ones))) who archictet all this and seems the multiculturalism has been imported to far east too, it’s a global domination.

    This is a subjective argument. You call it brainwashing because you personally dislike it, but just because you dislike something doesn’t mean that its brainwashing

    Is there some architect trying to push multiculturalism on the entire world? possibly. Is this the only explanation for the growth and spread of multiculturalism? nope. The acceptance of multiculturalism can also be due to organic, naturally occurring factors as well. Lets face it; multiculturalism and openness to multiculturalism is something that would be inevitable even if there was no hypothetical attempt to brainwash everybody into following it; and the reason why it would be inevitable anyways is because of two technological innovations:

    1.the airplane
    2. the internet

    These two things alone have made the world a much smaller place than it was just a few hundred years ago. At this rate; preventing multicultural policies from organically occurring would be tantamount to putting one’s fingers in a dam.

    That being said; with regards to the conspiracy oriented explanation of the spread of multiculturalism, assuming that it is true, I don’t really think it will ever gain traction in asia, nor do I think that it is the intent of the “architects” to mix out the rest of the world. Rather I think their only target is the west; and I think that their reason for doing so is because they strongly believe in the notion of karma. Nice try at trying to get me on board with your views by bringing up the fact that multiculturalism might potentially threaten the far east though. Also I find it funny that you are trying to impugn the “architects” for wanting to pursue global domination while at the same time you are trying to downplay the fact that the west (and large numbers of its population) actually participated in dominating the entire world. Wow, what a lack of self awareness

    Existentialism make people live the life most in the present and in considerably more self-serviced way. It’s not exactly bad we have our rights attended and pay attention to our desires but when we overpass this totally above common or collective rights we are just acting in very selfish ways.

    and european colonialism was not a supreme act of selfishness? A supreme act of selfishness which the descendants of those same european colonists still directly benefit from? lol ok

    I’m not trying to sanctifing whites, on average, or collectively speaking, even because i’m one of those here that is always criticising not just whites but also conservatives. And yes, i don’t believe that without jewish plague whites cannot be a plague too, but we still don’t know correct knowledge about the extension of jewish involvement even before second war world. For example, Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear attacks… The big difference is that jews and elites which are aligned with them created a way to blame whites, as a people and as race, and taking off from their own backs their own responsibility. It’s exactly like a pretty smart high functioning psychopath that commit crimes but find a very clever way to blame their ”allies’ or even the weakest side, the people, while they themselves, in very chutzpathied way, appear as the saviors .. of their own crimes.

    This is absurd. Whites have been trying to antagonize and open up japan for centuries before WW2 happened. WW2 was merely a culmination of a long process of western antagonization of east asia. Its disingeuous that you are once again trying to shunt the blame off of whites by using the example of hiroshima/nagasaki (what does this have to do with jews anyways?) and then ignoring the centuries long history of whites trying to open up and exploit not just japan but all of east asia. This is why you cannot be taken seriously, you do not make serious arguments.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  373. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    I think WN/alt-righters sometimes like to act as if whites are not the REAL bad guys, but rather its just the jews making whites do bad things; but from interacting with WN/alt-righters and seeing the kinds of things that they say and do, its quite apparent that whites can be bad all on their own, with or without the jews (consider the twisted rhetoric of joe webb for example). As I have said before; whites possess a certain energy and verve which is conducive towards large scale aggressive and ambitious enterprises; jews seem to be efficient at occasionally manipulating this energy for their own gains, but this doesn’t magically absolve whites of their own crimes.

    AS IF WHITESS ARE NOT REAL BAD GUYS… even if it’s right that tribalists are characteristically tendentious when the debate it’s about ”their own” people, your words are showing maybe a dishonest point of views where again, whites are only ones to be blamed and jews… well, jews are just misunderstood angels. There are very bad, bad, average [most people], good, very good people in ALL human populations. It’s based on how worried about REAL moral issues you are. I don’t think american whites are soooo worse than chineses, on avg, even because there are different issues where chineses appear to be pretty bad, for example, treatment of other living beings and nature. And yes, you don’t need remember me about industrialization… as a possible counterargument.

    You obviously misunderstood the tone of what I wrote.

    I think WN/alt-righters sometimes like to act as if whites are not the REAL bad guys, but rather its just the jews making whites do bad things; but from interacting with WN/alt-righters and seeing the kinds of things that they say and do, its quite apparent that whites can be bad all on their own, with or without the jews (consider the twisted rhetoric of joe webb for example).

    Its obvious that I was saying that in a meta fashion and it is not intended to be understood directly or literally for that matter. Once again, because of your faulty reading comprehension you mistakenly assume that I am saying things which I am not really saying. Since the rest of your paragraph is based on your misperception of what I was saying; there is no need for me to address the rest of it

    do you believe jews don’t dominate western world right now and they are not involved IF NOT totally responsible for all creepy sttuf have happened and will happen in western** tell me..

    I believe that if the jews are dominating the western world right now then it is only because they are acting as a force of karma to dismantle the west through the very things which it worships (mammon and warfare). To borrow a quote from genghis khan to better explain my feelings on the matter:

    I am the punishment of God…If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.

    Had the west not committed great sins, then it would not be dealing with a punishment like the jews.

    Once again, to get back to your original point. I don’t buy your argument that people aren’t responsible, only the elite are. This is a stupid argument and this is basically the argument that you are trying to make in spite of your (unconvincing) attempts to claim otherwise. I hold both people and the elite responsible, both can be responsible in different ways, and sometimes the intention of the people and the elite align very nicely with each other, and in that kind of situation I would hold both the people and the elite equally responsible. Its really very simple and not nearly as contrived and complicated as you are purposely trying to make it seem like it is.

    Lastly, I find it hilarious that you completely skipped over my other two replies to you; which btw pretty much already addressed all of the points that you brought up in your latest reply. I wasted my time writing all of this out to you again when really I should have just had you read and re-read what I originally wrote.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  374. GammaRay says:
    @Factorize

    Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

    IMO the crisis regarding african demographics will ultimately sort itself out. I am of the opinion that a global superpower china will probably not directly engage in helping african countries sort out their own problems, however china will incidentally help out africa through its non-interference policies as well as through commercial/infrastructure projects.

    I think the notion that a global superpower must help out dysfunctional/weak nations is more of a western idea. To my knowledge, there is no real force which would compel a lone global superpower to act in this way. Its definitely possible to be a global superpower without burdening oneself with helping out weaker nations. In fact, I suspect that this is precisely what many third world countries would welcome, that is to say, they would desire effective political sovereignty and non-interference from any kind of overbearing global superpower entity. If that’s the case (and I strongly suspect that it is), then china could easily fill the role of a relatively benefic/neutral global superpower that simultaneously rejects the burden of (directly) helping sort out the affairs of third world countries.

  375. @GammaRay

    Firstly,

    Calm down, i don’t want ”fight” with you right now in this debate.

    Secondly,

    No, whatever i’m doing here i never have the intention to manipulate people, i don’t need it, because what actually i do is otherwise, i always try to demanipulate comments i perceive as dishonest or obtuse as many of yours.

    Just say my argument is weak don’t make it weak, make yours weak.

    Answer this question: ALL chineses or CHINESE PEOPLE/CHINESE RACE must be blamed by atrocities commited/been commited in your country and out**

  376. Im sorry but your argument about how only the elites should ever be blamed (and not the people carrying out their orders) isn’t really that persuasive or convincing. I will use your same logic to craft an analogy to show the essential weakness of your argument:

    There is a hypothetical pakistani child grooming gang operating in britain; the rank and file of the child grooming gang are directly sexually abusing underage british females, meanwhile the mastermind of the gang has never even touched any of the females that the gang is grooming; however he is financing and organizing the entire thing from the very top. In your opinion; who is really more morally culpable here? The gangleader or his henchmen?

    I’m not have time nor patience to debate with a person as you… start from the moment you misunderstood my comment [i never said ONLY ELITE MUST BE BLAMED... or you read incorrectly what i wrote or you're deliberately using this as if i will not remember what i wrote] AND when you use such alarming and revealing word HYPOTHETICAL about something really happens.

    So i will stay here

    re-explaining what i believe i wrote in understandable way

    and

    debating against your rampant dishonest and evilness when you put the word HYPOTHETICAL in factually horrible facts…

  377. @GammaRay

    Your whole first part of your comment here is based on misunderstood… period.

    You take and separate part of my comment where appear i’m saying ”just blame the elite…” and start to counterargue from this [discharacterize my argumentation].

    ”Why bring up the chinese? ”

    Why not*

    Another precious advice, reduce your arrogance… it’s seems you’re triggered…

  378. MEH 0910 says:

    Yan Shen, are you a female piano prodigy who keeps inserting into her writing the verbal tic “uh” as a covert tribute to her alma mater the University of Houston?

    http://www.uh.edu/kgmca//music/tmf/about-the-festival/orchestra-fellows/2017/profiles/yan-shen.php

  379. Because you said

    SUCH HYPOTHETICAL en masse grooming… you’re putting yourself in problematic positions as well your entire self-declared honesty here.

    End of discussion

    Whites can be collectively blamed, but it’s doesn’t mean they deserve to be exterminated… do you can understand or accept this*

  380. You are making the common WN/alt-right mistake of assuming that anybody who criticizes western colonialism is exclusively singling out white people; however this is not true.

    No, i NEVER said that ANYBODY who criticizes western colonialism is exclusively singling out white people, where i wrote this** show me. Even because i’m one of those who criticize western civilization and often put most of the guilty in the european backs, period.

    If the topic of this conversation were about any other race/group that was guilty of genocide/atrocities then I would have no problem objectively analyzing their culpability and potential guilt.

    Because they are being genocided right now.

    That being said, the topic of debate within this part of the comments section has been exclusively pertaining to european colonialism, and that is why we are discussing the potential guilt of the west/white people. You are mistaken if you think that I do not hold all other people/races to equal standards.

    I’m mostly white/european and western because i was born in western hemisphere and have been impregnated/accepted part of its culture BUT my guilt about all past crimes is ZERO by the simple fact i was born in the end of 80′s AND my potential guilt to defend this crimes have been reduced, yes, because i already tried to ”rationalize” many of them in the past.

    Two types of narrative

    the first is abstractally mythological

    ma’ people did this,

    ma’ people invented the modernity
    blablablabla

    in the hyper-reality i’m a individual who didn’t invented nothing and neither enslaved people.

    We are having troubles because our approaches seems different. Your approach seems more binnary and my approach is tendentiously via ”multiple’ perspectives. I’m dividing my perception about this issues in many pieces or bits instead creating a unitary narrative.

    I know what youre basically trying to imply though, and I’m going to go ahead and spear your argument. You’re basically trying to make the argument that whites are not uniquely guilty for european colonialism because every other race has done something similar, etc etc. That being said, this is a deceptive and disingenuous argument. I will use a simple analogy to show why this is:

    blacks murder people, but people of other races murder people as well; so why should we be concerned about black crime? (Its obvious that the black murder rate is much higher than that of other races, so that is why we focus on the black murder rate as opposed to the white or asian murder rate.)

    Even it’s not TOTALLY incorrect to state i’m not just arguing this even because i ALREADY said that one of the huge morally historical western problems is that it’s has been or was totally globalized. Huge or problematizable.

    And i’m not saying that western people cannot be blamed by western colonization/exploitations/whatever evil & stupid in any instance as you are trying to strawmanlize.

    Your simple logic seems simpleton.

  381. @GammaRay

    blacks murder people, but people of other races murder people as well; so why should we be concerned about black crime? In the same way, whites colonize people, but people of other races colonize people as well; so why should we be concerned about whites colonizing people?

    Complete discharacterization of my argumentation, i don’t know why

    We should obviously be concerned about whites colonizing others (and being particularly thorough about the genocidal aspect as well) because its self evident that whites are more proficient/most inclined to colonize and genocide other people (whites colonized/attempted to colonize the entire world and genocided countless indigenous cultures). Other people are guilty of colonization and genocide, but whites do it best, and many (actually the majority of WN/alt-righters) are stupid enough to openly admit this and be proud of it as well, even though it actually indicts them on a moral/ethical level.

    Yes and where i disagree with you, show me.

    Still i don’t find colonization exactly a ABSOLUTELY worst thing IF the colonizers were wiser enough; you don’t need exterminate or subjulgate another people if they can became your allies or fundamentally your benign cooperators, it’s look like idealistic and naive but i don’t think it is.

    Other people are guilty of colonization and genocide, but whites do it best, and many (actually the majority of WN/alt-righters) are stupid enough to openly admit this and be proud of it as well, even though it actually indicts them on a moral/ethical level.

    Exactly like most of conservs regardless their race and remember it’s possible to ”colonize” via subjulgation, replacement or any other pure-evil tactics in your own territory for example what is happening in Tibet.

  382. @GammaRay

    This is a subjective argument.

    When someone use this proto-argument i always believe s/he is trying to pass as intellectual..

    You call it brainwashing because you personally dislike it, but just because you dislike something doesn’t mean that its brainwashing

    aaaaaaah, NO.

    Many people also like to say that homossexuality today is a product of brainwash, well, i’m homossex and i wasn’t brainwashed specially because during my first childhood i was more concerned about dinossaurs than what is happening in macro-geopolitics.

    Brainwash and deception is very similar thing, if not basically the same. [brainwash would be a metaphorical representation of deception]. Because people are more prone to be puppies so they has been trained [and self trained] to believe that:

    jews are persecuted angels.

    blacks too, they has been absolutely victimized and most of their intellectual and behavioral ”deficits’ it’s due directly because western ”colonization’ or occupation OR systematic racism.

    No have human races, when ”actually” are and it’s very evident to see.

    It’s a classical case of classical conditioning, and because most people have binnary minds they can’t overcome this fabricated dilemas. X or Y*

    Basically what you already should know, as yourself already said here: most whites you know don’t care about ”white race”, why* Try to figure out why*

    Is there some architect trying to push multiculturalism on the entire world? possibly.

    If you’re still in this level… when all school books in South Korea is ”teaching’ how great is the multicult …

    Is this the only explanation for the growth and spread of multiculturalism? nope.

    This is the fundamental explanation or part of this explanation, the another explanations are at the best secondary or reactive or product of this first intention.

    The acceptance of multiculturalism can also be due to organic, naturally occurring factors as well. Lets face it; multiculturalism and openness to multiculturalism is something that would be inevitable even if there was no hypothetical attempt to brainwash everybody into following it; and the reason why it would be inevitable anyways is because of two technological innovations:

    1.the airplane
    2. the internet

    No there such thing ”inevitable”, only if there are (((someONES))) fighting against counterreactions against globalitarianism.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  383. These two things alone have made the world a much smaller place than it was just a few hundred years ago. At this rate; preventing multicultural policies from organically occurring would be tantamount to putting one’s fingers in a dam.

    Your simpleton mind [i'm using your own arroganc'y poison, sorry] can’t reach the multiple perspectives. It’s perfectly possible live in multicultural societies without mixing race, but would be necessary the government of given hypothetical country use different or new strategies to manage this scenario.

    That being said; with regards to the conspiracy oriented explanation of the spread of multiculturalism, assuming that it is true, I don’t really think it will ever gain traction in asia, nor do I think that it is the intent of the “architects” to mix out the rest of the world. Rather I think their only target is the west; and I think that their reason for doing so is because they strongly believe in the notion of karma.

    I don’t know how to start. Well, firstly they act in very subtle, hidden and relatively lazy ways.

    Japan already have ~2 million of immigrants. South Korea is the most multiculturalized in Far East. Seems you’re in the first steps. Italy also have a few immigrants and today is becoming more and more globalitarizad.

    yes, how explain Ireland**

    Ireland has been in its whole history a british plantation. Karma where exactly** explain me…

    And Sweden**

    Irrisory participation in western colonialism.

    And Poland** Also a irish version..

    Nice try at trying to get me on board with your views by bringing up the fact that multiculturalism might potentially threaten the far east though. Also I find it funny that you are trying to impugn the “architects” for wanting to pursue global domination while at the same time you are trying to downplay the fact that the west (and large numbers of its population) actually participated in dominating the entire world. Wow, what a lack of self awareness

    You are self-destroying your argumentative basis, maybe it’s your heart, too emotional, you’re revealling your dirty game here…

    You’re complicating for yourself and doing me lost my morning today…good job.

    Seems a implicit divisive narrative. You western, me eastern. Interestingly i’m not organically against globalism IF since its first events this was done in an extremely wise way. Unfortunatelly, often, there is little difference between a brainless but astute celebrity/parasite and a politician.

    Comeback to the real concrete world. I’m a western person, so***

    I’m part of this**

    I’m dominating the entire world, broahahaha

  384. @Santoculto

    ”classical case of classical” jeeezz..

  385. @GammaRay

    I believe that if the jews are dominating the western world right now then it is only because they are acting as a force of karma to dismantle the west through the very things which it worships (mammon and warfare). To borrow a quote from genghis khan to better explain my feelings on the matter:

    I am the punishment of God…If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.

    JEEEEEESUS KRAISTUSSS

    I don’t read this…

    the level of infactuality here is so big…

    And you quoted genghis khan, one of the most murderous motherfuckers of all time…

    I can’t dispute with your stupidity

    you won!!!

    Fantastic world of GammaRay…

    So, yes, for you jews ARE angels punishers…

    Had the west not committed great sins, then it would not be dealing with a punishment like the jews.

    Appealing for magical thinking, great!

    next step you will say that horoscope of white race no have a good news.

    Jews are dominating west to take it from original creators, white europeans, just like a parasitic wasp parasiting and killing the spider to take her web.

    It’s nothing to do with practice justice but to use it against white europeans, it’s not

    jews are destroying western world or taking it from whites,
    western world was a such a bad place which dominated, ”colonized’ and enslaved people’s in the entire world,
    white people ”has been” complacent,

    jews are good = whites are evil…

    It’s possible to reform a [mostly] bad civilization without bad tactics and injustices* i think yes it’s possible… it’s not what jews are doing.

    The best ways is

    be honest and sincere

    indeed

    everyone starts to debate about past crimes not only against another people but against themselves,

    very clear, objective and not fabricating lies such ”no there human races, mixing race is absolutely better than the otherwise”…

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  386. Another huge problem you still don’t understood is that

    all societies and specially the big ones again the rules and commands are extremely hierarchical. And again, i’m not saying that people never have guilt but that elites are those who truly command societies so if something bad is happening those who were the owners of this societies must be blamed firstly by this, look very obvious to be denied.

  387. @Santoculto

    So based on your subjective logic ”as chinese PEOPLE also have a historical crimes as well current ones, the next step of jews is immigrating to China and starts to deceive [even more] chineses”…

    • Replies: @GammaRay
    , @GammaRay
    , @GammaRay
  388. Factorize says:

    That was a great point about the lack of developed institutions in many of the developing nations that America has tried to interact with over the last several decades. I suspect that things drifted forward, while many were unaware that a new more dangerous type of relationship between the helper and the helped had emerged.

    Nonetheless, America’s moving the ball this far up the field is an enormous step forward for humanity. For centuries, Afghanistan has resisted modernizing forces. It seemed that they would continue to resist the future into the distant future. Yet, no; there is now a realistic chance that they are on the path to a shared future with the rest of humanity. The entire world is converging to a common reality… except Sub-Saharan Africa.

    The enormous success of Asia has distracted the world from what has been happening in Africa. The UN now has the goal of ending poverty by 2030. I would cast my vote to end poverty, though voting will not change the conditions on the ground.

    How are we going to cope with 1 billion very poor people with substantial development challenges? It’s hard to believe, though there are nations in Africa with 25% HIV prevalence. The nations outside of SSA that have needed help over the last few decades typically have populations around 20 million (with moves towards demographic stability). They have created an enormous burden on American resources.Yet, the nearly 1 billion in SSA (with demographic stability nowhere in sight) will likely be completely beyond the ability of the collective effort of the entire world to support.

    GammaRay, yes the demographic situation will resolve, though possibly not in this century. Demography is the ultimate demonstration of momentum. With so much inertia involved, it takes no great insight to project forward decades into the future. It is quite clear that it will be some time before the mo will be working with us and not against us.

    I am not sure whether it will be entirely realistic to allow things to unfold without intervention. The situation in SSA has been deteriorating for decades. Africa has been demonstrating an increasingly inability to feed itself. At some point we are going to realize that it is not so much that the 21st will belong to Asia, but that it will belong to Africa.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @GammaRay
  389. Truth says:
    @Yan Shen

    US aid to Africa is yet another hoax. It is not “aid” it is “loans” the countries have to pay the money back and are indebted until the end of time, just as we are here. Israel, and arguably, countries with many US military bases are the only companies that get US “aid.”

  390. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    Calm down, i don’t want ”fight” with you right now in this debate.

    You very clearly do want to fight with me. Honestly in most of your replies to me you come off as unhinged and emotionally unstable.

    No, whatever i’m doing here i never have the intention to manipulate people, i don’t need it, because what actually i do is otherwise, i always try to demanipulate comments i perceive as dishonest or obtuse as many of yours.

    I don’t really believe that. The truth is, you oftentimes try to argue in bad faith under razor thin pretenses of objectivity. Secondly, your english is not really that good. I hesitated to bring this up because I didn’t want to come off as an asshole, but since you want to push this issue; the truth of the matter is that you seem to have difficulty with reading comprehension and understanding the nuance that I am making in my responses to you. As a result of your inability to properly understand the arguments that I am actually making, you end up misunderstanding everything and then trying to attack me based on arguments which I am not actually making to beign with. Not only that, but I oftentimes have trouble trying to figure out what you’re trying to say as well. All around, its very difficult to have any kind of constructive dialogue with you; and this is not so much due to our numerous disagreements, rather it is simply due to the fact that your ability to comprehend and communicate is not very good.

    Answer this question: ALL chineses or CHINESE PEOPLE/CHINESE RACE must be blamed by atrocities commited/been commited in your country and out**

    If the chinese had colonized the entire world, and the nation/people of china had generally benefited from this arrangement then I think it would be appropriate to assign some kind of generalized blame to china. You appear to be caught up in this idea that I am unwilling to apply my standards evenly to other races; but this is not the case at all. I blame the west/whites for global colonization and genocide because it is factually true, not because I have some irrational grudge against white people for being white.

    Im sorry but your argument about how only the elites should ever be blamed (and not the people carrying out their orders) isn’t really that persuasive or convincing. I will use your same logic to craft an analogy to show the essential weakness of your argument:

    There is a hypothetical pakistani child grooming gang operating in britain; the rank and file of the child grooming gang are directly sexually abusing underage british females, meanwhile the mastermind of the gang has never even touched any of the females that the gang is grooming; however he is financing and organizing the entire thing from the very top. In your opinion; who is really more morally culpable here? The gangleader or his henchmen?

    I’m not have time nor patience to debate with a person as you… start from the moment you misunderstood my comment [i never said ONLY ELITE MUST BE BLAMED... or you read incorrectly what i wrote or you're deliberately using this as if i will not remember what i wrote] AND when you use such alarming and revealing word HYPOTHETICAL about something really happens.

    If you don’t have the time or patience to debate with someone like me; then why do you continue to debate with me? Actions speak louder than words, do they not?

    Also you clearly misunderstood the use of the word hypothetical within the context of its usage. Yes we are already aware that there was actually a pakistani child grooming gang that was operating in britain; nobody disputes this. However whether or not this incident actually occurred or not has nothing to do with my usage of the term hypothetical. My usage of the term hypothetical in this context is merely being used to emphasize the rhetorical nature of the situation which I am outlining, nothing more and nothing less. The fact that you misconstrued what I wrote as me trying to “lessen” the reality of the fact that the pakistani child grooming cases really existed has more to do with your own lack of comprehension than it does with me supposedly trying to belittle atrocities that have actually happened.

    You never said that “only the elite must be blamed”, but this is very clearly the thrust of your overall argument. Anybody reading our exchange can go back to your previous comments and verify this. You are arguing in bad faith and being extremely disingenuous when you try to dodge from the objective fact that you are indeed trying to make the argument “only the elite must be blamed”. If this is not the takeaway, then how else am I supposed to interpret the argument that you are trying to make? Numerous times I have repeatedly stated that both the elite and the proletariat are both equally capable of being blamed (a position which I think is reasonable), yet for some reason you want to continue arguing about this because you find some problem with my way of thinking; afterwards you go on to make the claim that the common people are like cattle, incapable of agency and completely manipulated by the elite. Your words, not mine:

    Again, the fundamental point you don’t get and it’s also explain your ”own” people. Most people or regular people are tamed [regardless their IQ, it's important to take note] and/or incapable to change the world which are created by their elites, the masses are often exactly like the dispersed cattle in farm, they are not organized, and often they don’t care too much about it, the world has been shaped by little groups of pretty organized, energic and practically intelligent and evil or merciless people.

    You’re very clearly trying to make the argument that “only the elite must be blamed”, so I don’t know why you continue to deny this. If you want to deny this allegation, then…why don’t you stop making arguments like this in the first place?

    I am also awaiting your response regarding the analogy about the hypothetical pakistani child grooming gang; don’t get your feathers so ruffled by a “hypothetical” scenario and just answer the question already.

    Another precious advice, reduce your arrogance… it’s seems you’re triggered…

    Not really. Its clear to anybody reading that your obviously triggered and emotionally perturbed by what I am writing to you.

    Whites can be collectively blamed, but it’s doesn’t mean they deserve to be exterminated… do you can understand or accept this*

    Um, this is what I have been saying the entire time. Its not my fault that you lack the reading comprehension to understand this. Whites have to deal with the unexpected consequences of centuries of colonization, this is not really a controversial statement. Nor did I state that they deserve to be exterminated. I already explained this to you in my previous response to you, it is not my fault that you didn’t understand it:

    Prior generations of whites created this mess, and present generations of whites are the ones who will have to deal with it.

    There is no emotional rhetoric underpinning what I wrote here; what I wrote is a simply, objectively true, matter of fact statement. I am not conveying any kind of personal bias of “what I think should be true”, rather I am merely making a factual observation of the causality of events. The fact that modern day generations of whites have to deal with the the mistakes of their ancestors is something that is true, independent of any kind of moral/philosophical arguments stating that modern day generations of whites deserve to be punished in this way. The fact that you misunderstood the argument that was being made lies on you and not on me.

    If the topic of this conversation were about any other race/group that was guilty of genocide/atrocities then I would have no problem objectively analyzing their culpability and potential guilt.

    Because they are being genocided right now.

    This right here is a terrific example of what I am talking about with regards to your inability to understand the arguments that I am making. I was clearly referring to races/groups that are committing genocide/atrocities, yet you apparently misinterpreted what I said as me talking about people being genocided. I think considering your low level of comprehension; it may not be worth continuing this dialogue with you. This is not because we disagree with each other, but because its nearly impossible to have a cogent dialogue with you period, due to your english not being at a high enough level to actually discuss the issues at hand instead of you constantly misunderstanding things that I am writing.

    We are having troubles because our approaches seems different. Your approach seems more binnary and my approach is tendentiously via ”multiple’ perspectives. I’m dividing my perception about this issues in many pieces or bits instead creating a unitary narrative.

    Not really, the only troubles we have are because your english is not good enough to participate in a complicated discussion such as this. That being said, my approach is actually quite reasonable and holistic. My reading of the situation is that you prefer to argue in bad faith and have a hidden agenda to pursue (most likely an anti-semitic one), but try to masquerade as being reasonable and compassionate, when really all you want to do is point your finger at jewish people irrespective of any other kinds of arguments (not blaming jews) which could hold equal if not more explanatory power.

    And i’m not saying that western people cannot be blamed by western colonization/exploitations/whatever evil & stupid in any instance as you are trying to strawmanlize.

    Then what are we arguing about? My position is very simple. I think that the west holds the lion’s share of responsibility when it comes to the blame for colonialization and what’s more, the west is currently reaping what it has sown for colonialization through an unexpected turn of events which is now currently negatively affecting the west (multiculturalism, globalization and mass immigration). My essential argument here is very simple and the truth of it is self evident. I don’t see how my essential argument can be misconstrued as unfair or illogical.

  391. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    We should obviously be concerned about whites colonizing others (and being particularly thorough about the genocidal aspect as well) because its self evident that whites are more proficient/most inclined to colonize and genocide other people (whites colonized/attempted to colonize the entire world and genocided countless indigenous cultures). Other people are guilty of colonization and genocide, but whites do it best, and many (actually the majority of WN/alt-righters) are stupid enough to openly admit this and be proud of it as well, even though it actually indicts them on a moral/ethical level.

    Yes and where i disagree with you, show me.

    ok, fine with me. This is what you originally wrote:

    Yes, i’m not saying that we need stop to blame whites but also to stop to only blame them, not just because ALL people tend to be, based on your moral metric, culpable anyway in some moment of their histories, but also because masses of humans, of individuals, tend to be both, innocent at some extent and guilty too.

    And what I wrote to you was a direct response explaining why whites hold a higher burden for crimes of colonialism/genocide vis a vis other people, and this is simply because they have committed genocide/colonialism at a scale and degree much larger than other people have historically speaking. There isn’t really anything controversial in my response to you; so im not really sure why you felt the need to address this. You wanted to make the claim that every race is capable of bad things, so we shouldn’t just blame whites; and then I went on to clearly explain why I disagree with that notion within the specific context of colonialism and why we should hold whites/the west particularly accountable for colonialism due to the immense scale and degree of that crime (It was literally a world wide criminal enterprise that lasted for centuries). If you have a problem with me responding to you about something, then why bother writing it to me in the first place?

    Still i don’t find colonization exactly a ABSOLUTELY worst thing IF the colonizers were wiser enough; you don’t need exterminate or subjulgate another people if they can became your allies or fundamentally your benign cooperators, it’s look like idealistic and naive but i don’t think it is.

    wrong wrong wrong. You are completely wrong about this. Colonization is a crime, it doesn’t matter who does it; white, black or yellow. Benign cooperation is much different than “colonization”. The fact that you are trying to somehow justify colonization says a lot about your own mindset.

    Exactly like most of conservs regardless their race and remember it’s possible to ”colonize” via subjulgation, replacement or any other pure-evil tactics in your own territory for example what is happening in Tibet.

    First of all, im not chinese

    Secondly, what is happening in Tibet is wrong (assuming that what we hear about what is happening in tibet is factually true to begin with)

    Thirdly, while the colonization of tibet is wrong, it is magnitudes less worse than what the european colonizers did to the entire world, for multiple centuries. Dont be disingenuous and try to make the tibet counterargument when you know full well that the gradual colonization of tibet is hardly comparable to the violent genocide and colonization that the european colonizers subjected the entire world to

    Fourthly, the primary reason that china is colonizing tibet anyways is in order to neutralize the chances of tibet being manipulated and used as an anti-chinese government staging ground by the CIA. The US is essentially moving china’s hand when it comes to tibet; I feel that if it were not for the US constantly trying to destablize the chinese government (along with countless other sovereign governments around the world), then the chinese government would have a remarkably more liberal policy towards tibet. Assuming of course that all the negative allegations regarding the treatment of the chinese government towards tibet are actually true to begin with.

    Brainwash and deception is very similar thing, if not basically the same. [brainwash would be a metaphorical representation of deception]. Because people are more prone to be puppies so they has been trained [and self trained] to believe that:
    jews are persecuted angels.
    blacks too, they has been absolutely victimized and most of their intellectual and behavioral ”deficits’ it’s due directly because western ”colonization’ or occupation OR systematic racism.

    did you know that WN/alt-right also have their own form of brainwashing? Except it is where they try to paint everybody else as subhumans and then try to act like white people are the only one’s that have a right to exist on this planet. More comical is the common WN/alt-right delusion that the west has historically done nothing wrong and that they are being unfairly victimized right now LOL. What’s more sad is that many WN/alt-righters uncritically eat this up and actually start to believe their own delusions and brainwashing.

    Is there some architect trying to push multiculturalism on the entire world? possibly.

    If you’re still in this level… when all school books in South Korea is ”teaching’ how great is the multicult …

    yup it wouldn’t surprise me if this was true. Although is it because of some kind of conspiracy, or is it due to economic factors or even cultural influence (IE the united states)? Furthermore, have you ever even been to korea? Have you actually ever talked to that many native koreans about the scale of this problem? Or is this just something you read on some obscure alt-right forum? Something I have noticed is that many WN/alt-righters want to get in a tizzy over things which they have only heard about through hearsay, and which are happening in a foreign country and don’t even pertain to them. Its kind of ludicrous isn’t it?

    Regarding multiculturalism in south korea, my impression is that its only a problem because urbanized korean women don’t want to marry rural farmers, so as a result the farmers import wives from vietnam and the phillipines. That’s really about it; its less about there being some huge conspiracy and it more boils down to rather mundane factors. Just a tip for you btw, extreme anti-semitism rots critical thinking skills ;)

    No there such thing ”inevitable”, only if there are (((someONES))) fighting against counterreactions against globalitarianism.

    Yes, there is such thing as inevitable. The existence of the airplane and the internet makes multculturalism inevitable; however the exact degree of multiculturalism is up for debate. That being said, unfortunately for WN/alt-right ultra nationalists it is impossible to completely isolate yourself away from the rest of the world these days. Even a totalitarian nation like north korea is gradually succumbing to global influence (particularly from its southern neighbor), what makes you think that WN/alt-righters would fare any better?

    These two things alone have made the world a much smaller place than it was just a few hundred years ago. At this rate; preventing multicultural policies from organically occurring would be tantamount to putting one’s fingers in a dam.

    Your simpleton mind [i'm using your own arroganc'y poison, sorry] can’t reach the multiple perspectives. It’s perfectly possible live in multicultural societies without mixing race, but would be necessary the government of given hypothetical country use different or new strategies to manage this scenario.

    Um…I guess? You seem to be convinced that in order to properly administer a multicultural society it would involve the government preventing people from race mixing. Wow, that sounds really appealing man. It almost sounds like some sort of “caste system”. Good luck getting everybody else in society to agree with that though; I don’t think most people would take kindly to having some alt-right stranger on the internet trying to legislate whether or not they are allowed to race mix with their own bodies. And you accuse me of being arrogant, LOL. The fact that you think that people would be ok with the government legislating this just demonstrates how out of touch your thought process is from everybody else. You have been spending too much time on /pol/, your autism is showing buddy

    That being said; with regards to the conspiracy oriented explanation of the spread of multiculturalism, assuming that it is true, I don’t really think it will ever gain traction in asia, nor do I think that it is the intent of the “architects” to mix out the rest of the world. Rather I think their only target is the west; and I think that their reason for doing so is because they strongly believe in the notion of karma.

    Japan already have ~2 million of immigrants. South Korea is the most multiculturalized in Far East. Seems you’re in the first steps. Italy also have a few immigrants and today is becoming more and more globalitarizad.

    Yes these countries have multiculturalism; but is it because of some conspiracy? Or is it due to mundane factors (such as the ones that I explained with regards to south korea)? Furthermore, will these trends decrease, stagnate or increase? This is something that is not clear yet as well, therefore it is incorrect to assume at this point in time that multiculturalism will earnestly gain traction and take off in east asia in the same way that has happened in the west.

  392. GammaRay says:
    @Santoculto

    yes, how explain Ireland**

    Ireland has been in its whole history a british plantation. Karma where exactly** explain me…

    I stated that “they” appear to strongly believe in the notion of karma/payback/revenge etc. I didn’t directly state that what is happening to the west is a result of karma. Reading comprehension my friend…

    That being said, actually there was a significant portion of irish people that immigrated to america (as well as to other colonized territories) throughout its founding period; I wouldn’t doubt that many of these irish immigrants probably played a part in helping to directly displace the native americans from their ancestral lands as well as helping to repopulate these lands with europeans instead. Just as the irish oftentimes chose to be immigrants around the world by taking advantage of the opportunities provided by the british empire, Ireland too can now accept immigration.

    My advice is that you should let the irish speak for themselves on this matter instead of volunteering to speak on their behalf for them. Alt-righters look really silly when they attempt to speak on behalf of countries which they know little about, have never stepped foot in, and the only thing that they do know about these countries is alarmist news articles from far right extremist internet publications.

    And Sweden**

    Sweden actually held colonies as well as had some limited participated in the slave trade. Sweden actively participated in the chaos created by the european scramble for new colonies in the americas during the 17th and 18th centuries; therefore it is factually incorrect to say that sweden never had anything to do with colonization. You would know this if you bothered to do your own research and didn’t just parrot things that you heard in various alt-right echo chambers. My impression of western culpability with regards to colonialism is that many european countries were involved in some capacity when it came to the european global colonialization project in both large and small ways, direct and also indirect. Colonialism was very obviously a pan-european (perhaps predominately western european?) enterprise.

    And Poland** Also a irish version..

    Poland is hardly multicultural. I can’t find any evidence of them adopting mass immigration policies. Puzzled as to why you brought them up. No doubt you probably got misinformed regarding poland from some alt-right echo chamber and automatically believe now that poland is being overrun by immigrants even though you have never stepped foot in the country and know nothing about the actual situation on the ground over there.

    I believe that if the jews are dominating the western world right now then it is only because they are acting as a force of karma to dismantle the west through the very things which it worships (mammon and warfare). To borrow a quote from genghis khan to better explain my feelings on the matter:
    I am the punishment of God…If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.

    JEEEEEESUS KRAISTUSSS
    I don’t read this…
    the level of infactuality here is so big…

    Once again, your low level of (english) reading comprehension is showing. Its obvious that I am making a poetic, figurative statement here that is not intended to be understood in a completely literal sense; of course this went completely over your head.

    Just to reiterate my original point; from everything I have seen so far, if there really is a jewish conspiracy to dismantle the west, it appears that the jews are primarily achieving this by pushing policies which take advantage of the west’s decadence, arrogance, worship of mammon and lust for warfare. Therefore, the jews appear to be figuratively exacting the karma of the west by exploiting the very foibles of western culture itself.

    And you quoted genghis khan, one of the most murderous motherfuckers of all time…

    Yes this is true, and I do not deny that genghis khan was probably not a very nice person. That being said, I found that quote of his to be tangential and highly relevant, so I used it. You’re looking too much into this.

    Jews are dominating west to take it from original creators, white europeans, just like a parasitic wasp parasiting and killing the spider to take her web.

    And? From my point of view, it appears more like jews are dominating the west in order to share it with the rest of the world as opposed to only using it to benefit themselves. IMO this is noble, and even justifiable considering that the west saw fit to take indigenous lands away from everyone else. Furthermore, why do you continue to use the analogy of jews being a parasitic wasp when the same analogy can easily be used to refer to europeans and their long, bloody history of usurping and parasitizing indigenous people around the world? The fact that you chose to use this analogy goes to show how little self awareness you have.

    That being said; jewish involvement or not, that doesn’t change the fact that the west still brought the current state of affairs on itself. Jews wouldn’t have been able to accomplish all of this if it wasn’t for the west bringing globalization into existence into the first place. Like I said before, jews cannot solely be blamed for every bad thing, rather it appears that jews are proficient at taking advantage of enterprises initially started by whites and then using it towards their own purposes; whatever those purposes might be. In this case, it appears that jews are doing the noble thing and that they are exploiting globalization in such a way that it redistributes power, wealth and land amongst all the races in the world, instead of allowing all of this power, wealth and land to be concentrated amongst one single race (who attained all of these in an unjust manner to begin with)

    It’s nothing to do with practice justice but to use it against white europeans, it’s not
    jews are destroying western world or taking it from whites,
    western world was a such a bad place which dominated, ”colonized’ and enslaved people’s in the entire world,
    jews are good = whites are evil…

    Actually; if you really want to go there, then we will. As recently as the early 20th century it appeared to all observers that the west was going to definitively take over the entire world, and there was not a single non-white country which was in a position to seriously threaten this arrangement (it is true that japan was rapidly modernizing, but japan by itself could not upset the entire global western world order). At that point in time, western colonies spanned the entire globe, and the british empire itself was especially strong and at its peak. Were it not for the calamity of world war 1 and world war 2 (which according to conspiracy theorists was caused by the jews), then its very possible that whites would have continued unimpeded in their efforts to gradually cleanse and displace the world of every other race in order to make the world a place for only whites to exist.

    What’s more, back then whites were approximately 1/3 of the world’s population so it would have been very easy for whites to genocide the other 2/3s of the world’s population if they so desired, and from every indication, it appears as if this is more or less what they intended to do over time (if their treatment of the native americans was any indication of what was to come). Therefore, it actually does appear that jews are good and whites are evil. That being said, I do not agree with extremely broad generalizations such as this. I have met too many good white people (as well as good people from all races) to write off an entire race as evil. But, if we really want to look at the situation objectively, and if you insist on using black/white heuristics then yes, it does appear as if whites are a generally a malefic presence towards every other race on earth

    It’s possible to reform a [mostly] bad civilization without bad tactics and injustices* i think yes it’s possible… it’s not what jews are doing.
    The best ways is
    be honest and sincere

    If honesty and sincerity is the best way then you should lead by example.

    all societies and specially the big ones again the rules and commands are extremely hierarchical. And again, i’m not saying that people never have guilt but that elites are those who truly command societies so if something bad is happening those who were the owners of this societies must be blamed firstly by this, look very obvious to be denied.

    wrong. I blame both. You only try to make this argument about predominately blaming the elite because you secretly want to equate jews = elite. Its really that simple; you obviously want to point the finger at a hypothetical jewish elite instead of simply admitting that sometimes the masses of people can possess agency, and can be morally wrong in their actions, regardless of elite involvement.

    So based on your subjective logic ”as chinese PEOPLE also have a historical crimes as well current ones, the next step of jews is immigrating to China and starts to deceive [even more] chineses”…

    Nah not really. Chinese people never genocided and colonized people on a global scale; therefore, assuming that the jews are the champions of all the oppressed races on earth (which is my understanding of them anyways), then why would the jews attempt to infiltrate and bring down china?

  393. GammaRay says:
    @Factorize

    I don’t really understand what the problem regarding africa is. If africa is overpopulated and is on the verge of collapse, then why does this become a problem for the rest of the world? In practical terms, I don’t understand what the issue here is. Do you mind outlining a few scenarios so that I have a better idea of what you are talking about?

    In all honesty, I think that in a post-western world, africa’s problems will remain africa’s problems. If africa collapses and nobody is realistically able to help it (or unwilling to), then what’s the worst that will happen? Africa only becomes a problem if people want to make it a problem. I know that on the alt-right there is a lot of doom porn that africa is going to become overpopulated and fill the entire world with africans; but in a realistic sense I don’t really see that happening. Moving extremely large numbers of african refugees/immigrants/etc out of africa and to other countries would be a political and logistical nightmare in the present day, but this would be especially so in a post-western world.

  394. Factorize says:

    GammaRay, I don’t think it is entirely realistic to imagine a future for humanity that at some level is not shared. It is hard to ignore that the most world-changing thing to emerge out of Africa in at l00 years is AIDS.

    Unrecognized by many, Africa has been drfting towards yet an even more severe development crisis. It is no longer obvious how they will be able to sustainably feed themselves.

    The emerging IQ enhancement technology could be such a blessing for the developed world. Genetically engineering people to have several hundred point IQ will certainly transform our lives. A large scale GWAS will soon be published that describes 3000 SNPs for Educational Attainment. The age of enhanced humans is rapidly approaching.

    However, one would be fully justified in being concerned with what might happen if such enhancement might occur under less than ideal circumstances. For instance, consider how a child with genetically enhanced IQ born into a sub-Saharan African nation with ongoing conflict and an AIDS prevalence of 25% might develop.

    • Replies: @GammaRay
  395. GammaRay says:
    @Factorize

    Im sorry but I don’t really find this line of reasoning convincing. Yes it is true that the world is becoming a smaller place; but I don’t really see africa’s own local woes becoming something that will (definitely) affect the rest of the world. In a post-western world, if the africans cannot feed themselves, then what? I’m of the opinion that not much will happen at all in the broader scheme of things.

    That being said, I could see how this might cause a refugee crisis for europe; but if that is what we’re (really) concerned about then we directly address it as such, instead of extrapolating to the situation to a global catastrophe.

    With all due respect, I am still not making the connection here between africa population/starvation problems and global catastrophe. I don’t really think there is a strong argument for this outside of the histrionic doom porn of a black world that is so popular on the alt-right.

  396. Factorize says:

    Gamma, thank you for rebutting as it gives me an opportunity to firm up what I am trying to communicate.

    It is true that the world has largely ignored the plight of Africa. Outside of Africa, there has been substantial interventions in the internal affairs of nations. As the saying goes, we have now drained the swamp. What remains now seems totally unmanageable.

    I think my suggestion of a world with enhanced IQ and large development challenges needs to be reiterated. John von Neumann one of the most intelligent people of the 20th Century, helped develop computers, atomic weapons and realized upon the arrival of computers that a Singularity would emerge. He also was highly in favor of an unprovoked first nuclear strike against the Soviet Union

    Genetic enhancement of IQ will transform humanity, but there will be risks. We need to start now to create the conditions for the approaching transhumans in which they will not be motivated to destroy our world. Technology is giving to even ordinary citizens massive power. I suppose if I put my mind to it I could create a gene drive that would result in a world swarming with 50 foot ants. We need to make sure that the world we create now is filled with love and compassion and not hate. If we don’t it iß hard to imagine that we have a future.

    From this perspective, looking to Africa one becomes alarmed. There are African nations in which 25% of the adults are HIV infected! The level of development in many of these nations is minimal. Introducing genius level IQ into such an environment could pose serious global security risks. von Neumann clocked in at somewhere near 200 IQ, from what I can see 400 IQ has already been revealed by the latest EA GWAS. I would not want to see what weapon system a child with 400 IQ and filled with hate might invent.

  397. Factorize says:

    I was mildly surprised by China’s recent response to the US tariffs.
    It wasn’t shocking, or startling, nor even overly surprising … Anyone have a thesaurus?

    Comments please!

  398. Factorize says:

    Has there been any large scale IQ GWAS research published on the Chinese or other East Asian samples?

    This blog quoted 40 year old psychometric studies from America. Has the claim that nations differ by IQ been clearly established using recently discovered IQ SNPs?

  399. @Yan Shen

    Yan,

    Very well written piece, with detailed and shall I say more or less accurate perspective, compatible with the data time and time again. I’ve written similarly on my blog as well.

    Ironic though is that while now East Asians are seen as skewed in favor of STEM, East Asian civilization was quite wanting in its development of theoretical science, though this is not entirely due to the lopsided cognitive profile. Though overall, I see that East Asians in STEM are generally more concrete, computational, spatial, there have also appeared quite a few who would be regarded as deeper, more theoretical thinkers with very high V. On this, I was somewhat surprised to learn, for instance, how much East Asians (mostly Japanese, but there’s also Yang, Lee) actually contributed to theoretical physics later on in the 20th century. From what I’ve seen, the top Chinese mathematicians and theoretical physicists from the old generation were very well-versed culturally and linguistically.

    By the way, I’ve seen your comments on Hsu’s blog regarding discrimination against Asian-Americans, and I can surely identify somewhat. As much as they may like to, they are not really in an economic or political position to do much against it, though that is changing. I do believe that Asian Americans would do much better, especially at the top, if they could care less about what other people think and develop more in accord with their natural inclinations. However, this is far from the reality especially with the Asian quotas and biases of certain people in power.

    You wrote about China’s STEM. It seems to have gone up drastically the past few decades. It is already at or close to world class level on the applied side, in engineering and technology. Though in basic science research, it seems still quite distant, unlike Japan, but this again is just a matter of time. Modern science is more or less a Western tradition starting from the Greeks, and while Chinese do have the talent, developing the right tradition and culture for that takes generations. Ultimately, ethnic Chinese should be doing their best science in China, as opposed to in American institutions, which can only accommodate so many. I genuinely believe more diversity and independence in scientific schools of thought would be beneficial for science and for the world at large.

    Also, thanks to Ron Unz for providing Yan with such a venue to publicize his thoughtful ideas.

    • Replies: @Yan Shen
  400. Yan Shen says:
    @gmachine1729

    Thanks for the comment!

    It is already at or close to world class level on the applied side, in engineering and technology.

    It’s strongest in engineering and technology currently, but in physical sciences it’s also not that far off from world class, perhaps more so for chemistry compared to physics.

    I think the biggest thing I wanted to argue for in this article was that I don’t think East Asia will rival the Anglosphere in either software or the life sciences based on math/verbal split.

    Ultimately, ethnic Chinese should be doing their best science in China, as opposed to in American institutions, which can only accommodate so many.

    http://www.ecns.cn/2018/04-08/298317.shtml

    However, according to the latest statistics published by the Ministry of Education, about 540,000 Chinese went to study overseas in 2016, with about 430,000 returning. Compared to 2011, 2016 saw a 37.61 percent increase in the number of Chinese studying abroad and a 56.95 percent increase in returnees.

    “In my opinion, China has more opportunities than the U.S. regarding new technology,” said Lei, the postdoctoral scholar who got his bachelor’s and doctoral degrees at Stanford under the “Thousand Talents Plan”.

    “In the past few years, I’ve been working on a research project that is based on a novel graphitic carbon material with an ultrahigh surface area,” said Lei, who studies organic electronic-device fabrication.

    “An extremely large and often still growing share of electronic and technology supply chains are anchored in China.

    “Thus, China is the best place to get my project into production with strong government support for innovation and research and more opportunities for investment.”

    The number of returnees seems to be increasing. I think as China further rises, the number of people coming over to America to study will inevitably decline as well. So this is a “problem” that will resolve itself over the coming decades.

    • Replies: @gmachine1729
  401. @Yan Shen

    Yan,

    I’ve made more remarks on your piece in the following blog post of mine, which you’ll likely find interesting: https://gmachine1729.com/2018/04/23/back-to-blogging/. Also, you’re very welcome (that means please do) to share it with Ron Unz himself. I certainly wouldn’t mind getting to know him. :) I much respect his intellectual honesty.

  402. Edward says:

    Yan,

    Thank you very much for writing this. I more or less agree with what you are saying. While the importance of the general factor of intelligence (g) should not be understated, specific cognitive aptitudes must be taken into account too. I view it as follows: a high g-factor is the best predictor of overall life success, but specific cognitive aptitudes predict the type of success.

    As the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth (SMPY) has documented, while all of its participants are in the top 1% of the population, those with higher verbal ability relative to spatial ability tend to go into fields such as law and business, whereas those with higher spatial ability relative to verbal ability tend to go into mathematics, physics and engineering. All-rounders tend to go into fields such as medicine. Indeed, my reading of the SMPY is that the verbal-spatial split may be even more important than the verbal-math split.

    On the specific point about Terence Tao, he still appears to have plenty of verbal ability. This we can abduce from his blog alone. However, there is even better evidence to support my asserveration: Julian Stanley, the driving force behind the SMPY, wrote, in a 2006 review article about Terence Tao and Leonhard Ng, that Tao’s “SAT verbal score was much lower then [at age 8] but during the next few years rapidly climbed into the 700s.”

    In other words, Tao was still years ahead of his peers when it came to verbal ability, too.

    Source: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001698620605000404

  403. Jason1423 says:

    Hmmm this argument doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if high math ability as tested was all that was required to excel in maths and the physicals sciences (in all regards not just on tests) and East Asians have a higher maths ability as tested, then you would expect to see East Asians having completely dominated all areas of math, science and engineering since their cultures flourished which was at least 1000 years before most European cultures. There would be a tiny minority of European advances in maths, physics, chemistry, engineering with significant achievement in medicine and literature, for example.

    This is not what we see. Europeans (and in particular European Jews) dominate at the highest levels of achievement in Math, Physics, Chemistry and Engineering and have for hundreds of years despite a much smaller population. It was only after massive knowledge and technology transfer to Asia that East Asians started their rise.

    Virtually all of the most significant advances in the maths and the physical sciences have been achieved by Europeans.

    As to East Asian achievement in the West that is largely a factor of the sort of immigrants who migrate to the west i.e. the more intelligent East Asians. If you have a population 4-6 times larger than the host country you are migrating to and the more intelligent folk tend to migrate it is not surprising that they do better on average than the natives, this is true for Indians as well. Those left behind in the home countries are a different group to those who migrate.

    IQ tests are good and useful but not excellent and flawless. The real proof is in what your culture achieves that benefits mankind rather than pure number of patents you produce for example (there are many useless patents). It is one thing to improve some element of a computer it is another thing altogether to invent computing (for example). Also those who score well in tests often don’t translate that achievement to real world achievement and visa versa. Intelligence is so poorly defined that should be our first task, what is intelligence? How closely does it correlate to IQ.

    I think the real answer to why some groups do better in certain areas will be way more complex than the math/verbal split, it sounds too neat and clean to be of the real world, there are also too many exceptions to the theory for it to hold water.

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