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IQ or the Math/Verbal Split?
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Intelligence

As someone who’s been following HBD for the past 10 plus years or so, I’ve simultaneously been amused and enlightened by the passionate feelings the topic often engenders. The general conceit of the HBD crowd is that they possess deep insight into a body of scientific truth opening up new avenues of understanding entirely shut off from those cloistered in the comforting myths of PC. For the most part I’m sympathetic towards this sentiment. Rather than challenge the established tenets of HBD, this article is meant to clear up some of the conceptual muddle surrounding various HBD related discussions that I’ve been a part of over the years, whether directly or indirectly. I hope that my layman’s intuition might inspire others to think about the topic a bit differently. To my surprise, I’ve found that oftentimes people far smarter than myself still tend to think about the subject matter in rather rigid and constrained ways.

I often hear people talk about IQ as though it were some monolithic thing. No doubt this has been in large part due to the phenomenon of general intelligence or g, which supposedly explains why people’s performance on various mental subtasks seem to be correlated. If you’re above average in one cognitive area, you’re likely to be above average in others. [14]https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1998...or.pdf I want to argue for a different way of thinking about intelligence and HBD, one that doesn’t deny the importance of general intelligence but instead argues that for elite performance, math/verbal split probably matters more. Math/verbal split is simply the phenomenon that some people are cognitively lopsided in favor of either mathematical or verbal reasoning and thus their real-life pursuits mirror their cognitive profile. In particular, understanding the importance of the math/verbal split can illuminate potential differences between East Asians and Europeans or more generally between East Asians and non-East Asians, differences which I’m surprised are often not well noted even by supposed devotees of human biodiversity.

Smart East Asians

East Asians, those of Chinese, Korean, or Japanese descent, are often stereotyped as being smart by American society. They excel academically relative to members of other ethnic groups in the United States and disproportionately dominate real life STEM, whether at elite companies in Silicon Valley or in top science labs around the country. A 1987 Times article discussed the disproportionate success of East Asian immigrants, in particular in math and science, and suggested that this was because “Asian-American students who began their educations abroad arrived in the U.S. with a solid grounding in math but little or no knowledge of English. They are also influenced by the promise of a good job after college. “Asians feel there will be less discrimination in areas like math and science because they will be judged more objectively,” says Shirley Hune, an education professor at Hunter College. And, she notes, the return on the investment in education “is more immediate in something like engineering than with a liberal arts degree.” [1]http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,3...0.html Proponents of HBD will surely point to IQ as the ultimate underlying explanation rather than culture or other such factors. They’re mostly right, but I want to emphasize that East Asians are fundamentally characterized by what I refer to as the math/verbal split. People often casually note the affinity that East Asians have for math, without necessarily taking that understanding to its logical conclusion.

That East Asians skew towards math and away from verbal has long been documented in the psychometric literature. In their infamous book the Bell Curve, Charles Murray and Richard Hernstein note that East Asians tended to be much stronger at non-verbal as opposed to verbal reasoning. One study by Vernon that they reference suggests that Chinese Americans had an average performance IQ of 110 and an average verbal IQ of 97. [2]Murray, C & Hernstein, R. J. (1996). The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. 300-301. This was based on testing done in 1975 on Chinese children in San Francisco’s Chinatown using the Lorge-Thorndike Intelligence Test. [3]Flynn, J. R. (2007). What is Intelligence? Beyond the Flynn Effect. 116. Various other scholars such as Richard Lynn have also consistently noted that East Asians exhibit a pronounced math/verbal skew. Lynn proposes that Mongoloid intelligence is fundamentally characterized by “high general intelligence (Spearman’s g), high visuospatial abilities and low verbal abilities.” [4]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/01...901358 Thus, relative to Europeans, East Asians tend to average lower on verbal intelligence but excel significantly at quantitative and spatial reasoning.

Murray suggests that this math/verbal split explains why East Asians are underrepresented in the social sciences, humanities, and law and skewed towards science and engineering fields. [2]Murray, C & Hernstein, R. J. (1996). The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. 300-301. As I’ll argue later on, the skewed cognitive profile of East Asians not only explains why they avoid the non-sciences, but also why even within natural science, East Asians exhibit a clear preference for the quantitative physical sciences over the verbally loaded life sciences. The math/verbal split also illuminates East Asian performance in elite academic competitions in the US. For instance, East Asians are heavily overrepresented in math competitions such as MATHCOUNTS or AIME/USAMO/IMO, but have a relatively minimal presence in the Spelling Bee, which as of late has been dominated by verbally fluent South Asians.

A back of the envelop estimation based on surnames suggests that somewhere around 64% to 65% of 2016 USAMO qualifiers were East Asian. [5]https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/USAMO%20Qual..._0.pdf By contrast, since 1980 only one person with an East Asian name has won the Spelling Bee, while the last 10 winners or co-winners all are South Asian. [6]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scripps_Nation...mpions Similarly, an analysis of the names and pictures of the 291 Spelling Bee finalists from 2017 who made it to Washington DC suggests that conservatively estimating, there were about 25 or so full-blooded East Asians, a ratio of only about 8.6%. [7]http://spellingbee.com/meet-the-spellers/2017 (Some of the East Asian surnames were actually Vietnamese, a group which I’ve currently excluded from my definition of East Asian.)

Further evidence in support of the thesis that East Asians are cognitively skewed towards mathematical reasoning comes from Asian American scores on standardized tests. Although the data is over decade old, blogger Steve Sailer highlights performance by race on major standardized tests such as the GMAT, GRE, MCAT, and LSAT. [8]http://www.unz.com/isteve/scores-by-race-on-lsat-gr...d-dat/

Standardized test scores by race from Steve Sailer

Standardized test scores by race from Steve Sailer

One obvious fact is immediately apparent. Asian Americans perform significantly better on tests of mathematical rather than verbal reasoning. While they lagged whites on highly verbally loaded tests such as the MCAT Verbal, they excelled relative to whites on quantitative tests such as the GRE Math. Indeed, despite repeated complaints from white Americans that East Asians are gaming the system and artificially inflating their test scores, the fact that East Asian performance on standardized testing reflects the same math/verbal split as has been indicated by the psychometric literature suggests that in actuality these tests yield precisely the kind of results one might expect.

Science operates in part upon the principle of consilience. When various independent sources of evidence all converge upon the same underlying fact, this suggests that the data being considered makes sense in the context of a wider coherent theory. It makes less plausible the idea that somehow Asian American standardized test scores are the result of intense prep or cheating and therefore an anomaly in need of some refuting explanation. Contrary to Asian American test scores being anomalous, they in fact reveal the same thing that IQ testing has been telling us for years. On verbally loaded tests, East Asians on average score lower compared to whites. The main difference is that they tend to be significantly better on tests of quantitative aptitude. (This is to say nothing of the vast body of empirical literature suggesting that relatively g-loaded tests such as the SATs are not significantly amenable to extensive prep anyway, although some certainly seem convinced that Tiger Mothers had somehow found a way to crack all of that or something, possibly through magic dirt. As Steve Hsu points out, “even a casual investigation into this topic reveals that, at least on average, SAT scores are not easily improved, even through extensive effort.” [39]http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/02/test-preparati...s.html)

Lopsided Geniuses and Spearman’s Law of Diminishing Returns

The importance of the math/verbal split becomes clear when we read about historical lopsided geniuses. Numerous such examples abound. I want to focus on two in particular, Richard Feynman and Terence Tao, to illustrate the point that brilliant people aren’t necessarily equally brilliant in all aspects of life. Sure, general intelligence or g suggests that they’re likely to be above average in most if not all areas of cognitive ability, but I believe this misses the point.

The late Richard Feynman, a lopsided genius
The late Richard Feynman, a lopsided genius

Richard Feynman is legendary not only for his contributions as a theoretical physicist but also for his supposedly modest IQ of 125. [9]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Education (I suppose as well for his generally good sense of humor and zany love of life, and if one believes the apocryphal stories, for a rather brutal physics beatdown laid upon our good host himself, Ron Unz.) [44]http://web.cos.gmu.edu/~vkunkel/feynman1.html This was supposed to be a critical data point refuting the general utility of IQ testing as a useful predicator of real life accomplishment. If even an intellectual giant like Feynman tested at a modest IQ of only around 125, how useful could IQ testing actually be, the argument went?

In actuality, Feynman exhibited a clear math/verbal split and the modest IQ score of 125 often reported may simply have been the result of the test being verbally loaded. For instance, Wikipedia notes that “in 1939, Feynman received a bachelor’s degree and was named a Putnam Fellow. He attained a perfect score on the graduate school entrance exams to Princeton University in physics, an unprecedented feat, and an outstanding score in mathematics, but did poorly on the history and English portions.” [9]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Education Likewise physicist Steve Hsu doubts that“Feynman would have scored near the ceiling on many verbally loaded tests. He often made grammatical mistakes, spelling mistakes (even of words commonly used in physics), etc. He occasionally did not know the meanings of terms used by other people around him (even words commonly used in physics).” [10]http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/09/feynman-schwin...s.html

Terence Tao, another lopsided prodigy
Terence Tao, another lopsided prodigy

Another prodigy Terence Tao, one of the most preeminent mathematicians today, also mirrored Feynman in exhibiting a pronounced cognitive skew. As noted by those who studied him during his youth, “there’s no doubt that Terry Tao reasons almost incredibly well, mathematically, and learns mathematics and related subjects astonishingly fast. His performance in mathematics competitions in Australia and on the mathematical portion of the College Board Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT-M) at age 8 is phenomenal. He was taking the 60-item 60-minute multiple-choice SAT-M for the first time. On it, only 1 percent of college-bound male 12th-graders in the United States score 750 or more (College Board, 1985). He scored 760. Only one other 8-year-old of whom I am aware has done as well. That boy, who lives in a suburb of Chicago, was taking the test for the fifth time! He managed to score 800 before becoming 10 years old. Terry was not retested on SAT-M at age 9, because that seemed unnecessary.Yet at age 8 years 10 months, when he took both the SAT-M and the SAT-Verbal, Terry scored only 290 on the latter. Just 9% of college-bound male 12th-graders score 290 or less on SAT-V; a chance score is about 230. The discrepancy between being 10 points above the minimum 99th percentile on M and at the 9th percentile on V represents a gap of about 3.7 standard deviations. Clearly, Terry did far better with the mathematical reasoning items (please see the Appendix for examples) than he did reading paragraphs and answering comprehension questions about them or figuring out antonyms, verbal analogies, or sentences with missing words.” [11]http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry...A10116

A 2007 New York Times article also notes of Tao that “at age 5, he was enrolled in a public school, and his parents, administrators and teachers set up an individualized program for him. He proceeded through each subject at his own pace, quickly accelerating through several grades in math and science while remaining closer to his age group in other subjects. In English classes, for instance, he became flustered when he had to write essays. “I never really got the hang of that,” he said. “These very vague, undefined questions. I always liked situations where there were very clear rules of what to do.” Assigned to write a story about what was going on at home, Terry went from room to room and made detailed lists of the contents.” [12]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/science/13prof.html

As suggested above, most likely Tao and Feynman both skewed significantly away from verbal in favor of spatial/quantitative ability. Geniuses can certainly be lopsided in their cognitive profile and are not necessarily equally gifted at everything. Indeed, a failure to appreciate this fact probably resulted in one of psychometrics’ greatest false negatives. Around 1920, psychologist Lewis Terman famously attempted to search for bright youths in the state of California by administering to them IQ tests. Those who scored in the top 1% were tracked for further longitudinal study. Despite being future Nobel Prize winners in physics, both William Shockley and Luis Alvarez failed to make the initial cut. [13]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recognizi...intel/ Like Feynman’s infamous IQ score of only 125, this was once again held up as evidence of the limitations of intelligence testing. How could Terman have failed to identify these two budding prodigies?

William Shockley and Luis Alvarez. Both famously failed to make the initial cut on Terman’s IQ testing.
William Shockley and Luis Alvarez. Both famously failed to make the initial cut on Terman’s IQ testing.

Although this skepticism is superficially plausible, a more convincing explanation is offered by psychologists David Lubinski and Camilla Benbow, who argue that “many items on Terman’s Stanford-Binet IQ test, as with many modern assessments, fail to tap into a cognitive ability known as spatial ability. Recent research on cognitive abilities is reinforcing what some psychologists suggested decades ago: spatial ability, also known as spatial visualization, plays a critical role in engineering and scientific disciplines. Yet more verbally-loaded IQ tests, as well as many popular standardized tests used today, do not adequately measure this trait, especially in those who are most gifted with it.” [13]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recognizi...intel/ Had Alvarez or Shockley been administered a spatially or quantitatively oriented test of aptitude, it’s hard to imagine that either one of them would’ve failed to make Terman’s cut. This anomaly was simply the result of the intelligence community failing to adequately appreciate the math/verbal split.

None of this of course implies that notions of aggregate IQ or general intelligence aren’t meaningful concepts. Rather, I suspect that overall IQ is more useful for analyzing the greater population at large, while math/verbal split is more useful for understanding the performance of individuals at the right tail of the cognitive distribution. As has been argued by psychologists like Linda Gottfredson, the usefulness of general intelligence lies in the fact that “half a century of military and civilian research has converged to draw a portrait of occupational opportunity along the IQ continuum. Individuals in the top 5 percent of the adult IQ distribution (above IQ 125) can essentially train themselves, and few occupations are beyond their reach mentally. Persons of average IQ (between 90 and 110) are not competitive for most professional and executive-level work but are easily trained for the bulk of jobs in the American economy. In contrast, adults in the bottom 5 percent of the IQ distribution (below 75) are very difficult to train and are not competitive for any occupation on the basis of ability.” [14]https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1998...or.pdf

From , illustrating how outcomes in life are correlated with IQ.
From [14]https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1998...or.pdf, illustrating how outcomes in life are correlated with IQ.

When it comes to analysis of tail end talent though, I argue that most likely specific cognitive subfactors play a more important role. Indeed, Spearman’s law of diminish returns suggests that “the proportion of variation accounted for by g may not be uniform across all subgroups within a population. Spearman’s law of diminishing returns (SLODR), also termed the cognitive ability differentiation hypothesis, predicts that the positive correlations among different cognitive abilities are weaker among more intelligent subgroups of individuals. More specifically, SLODR predicts that the g factor will account for a smaller proportion of individual differences in cognitive test scores at higher scores on the g factor.” [15]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometric...eturns

Commenter Gwen on the blog Infoproc hints at a possible neurological basis for this phenomenon, stating that “one bit of speculation I have: the neuroimaging studies seem to consistently point towards efficiency of global connectivity rather than efficiency or other traits of individual regions; you could interpret this as a general factor across a wide battery of tasks because they are all hindered to a greater or lesser degree by simply difficulties in coordination while performing the task; so perhaps what causes Spearman is global connectivity becoming around as efficient as possible and no longer a bottleneck for most tasks, and instead individual brain regions start dominating additional performance improvements. So up to a certain level of global communication efficiency, there is a general intelligence factor but then specific abilities like spatial vs verbal come apart and cease to have common bottlenecks and brain tilts manifest themselves much more clearly.” [10]http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/09/feynman-schwin...s.html This certainly seem plausible enough. Let’s hope that those far smarter than ourselves will slowly get to the bottom of these matters over the coming decades.

In conclusion, the point I want to make here should be clear. Many people have fairly lopsided cognitive profiles. History provides us with illuminating examples of intellectual giants who were cognitively lopsided. Being a genius in one area doesn’t necessarily imply that you’re equally ingenious in all other areas. SLODR suggests that general intelligence is less relevant in explaining total cognitive variation the smarter the subgroup under consideration is. While g may be useful for aggregate broad stroke analyses of the larger population along the lines of the studies referenced by Linda Gottfredson, elite performance is probably more dependent upon specific cognitive subfactors. Indeed, ignoring the math/verbal split probably led to one of the most infamous false negatives in the field of psychometrics, when Lewis Terman failed to flag either Alvarez or Shockley as cognitively elite youths.

Having discussed the importance of the math/verbal split in understanding the trajectories of historical prodigies, let’s now turn to the topic of how this phenomenon can illuminate in general the trajectory of a rising modern day East Asia.

China’s Rapid Scientific Rise and East Asian Science

One of the most interesting phenomenon of the 21st century has been China’s rapid rise in science and technology. After the turmoil of the Cultural Revolution, China has been making rapid investments in S&T for the past few decades. It was estimated that during 2017, China had spent roughly $279 billion USD on R&D, an increase of 14% over the prior year and the culmination of a couple decades of rapid R&D growth from an extremely low starting base. [16]https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/26/china-spent-an-estim...r.html

However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science. As noted by Australian academic Simon Marginson, “in 2000 China authored just 0.6 percent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one percent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3% of the leading one percent of papers, half as many as the US- an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing- where China publishes more top one percent papers than the US- and mathematics (NSF, 2014.) China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and to some degree Singapore, have concentrated research development in the physical sciences and related applied fields like engineering, computing and materials. In Korea and Japan this supports advanced manufacturing. China also emphasizes research that supports accelerated modernization: energy, urbanization, construction, transport, and communications. At this stage medicine and life sciences are much weaker.” [17]http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publica...p9.pdf

Similarly, in 2014 Nature noted that a whopping 90% of China’s WFC came from the fields of physical sciences and chemistry, as opposed to life sciences. [18]https://www.nature.com/articles/515S73a China’s most recent output in 2017 in Nature essentially exhibits the same skew. [46]https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/china This contrasts with the scientific output of countries such as the United States or the UK, which tend to gravitate towards life sciences and medicine. For instance, UNESCO reported in 2010 that while Japan had strengths in physics, chemistry, engineering and technology, the United States and the United Kingdom tended to specialize in biomedical research and clinical medicine. [19]Unesco (2010). UNESCO Science Report 2010: The Current Status of Science Around the World. 12.

From , China’s output in Nature is clearly skewed towards physical sciences and chemistry and away from life sciences.
From [46]https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/china, China’s output in Nature is clearly skewed towards physical sciences and chemistry and away from life sciences.

Further evidence supporting the claim that East Asian countries clearly skew towards quantitative fields in their scientific output lies in the Leiden Ranking, which utilizes bibliographic data from the Web of Science produced by Clarivate Analytics to determine which institutions published the most high-impact papers in various fields. [20]http://www.leidenranking.com/ranking/2017/list Leiden categorizes papers into five broad areas, biomedical and health sciences, life and earth sciences, mathematics and computer science, physical sciences and engineering, and social sciences and humanities.

Based on the number of papers in the top 10% of citations, East Asian universities clearly excel at mathematics and computer science and physical sciences and engineering relative to the other three categories. For the time period of 2012-2015 and ranked by total number of top 10% papers based on citation rate, East Asia had 5 of the top 10 universities in physical sciences and engineering and 8 out of the top 10 universities in mathematics and computer science.

Top schools based on number of top 10% papers for the field of mathematics and computer science for 2012-2015 in Leiden.
Top schools based on number of top 10% papers for the field of mathematics and computer science for 2012-2015 in Leiden.
Top schools based on number of top 10% papers for the field of physical sciences and engineering for 2012-2015 in Leiden.
Top schools based on number of top 10% papers for the field of physical sciences and engineering for 2012-2015 in Leiden.

By contrast when looking at total top 10% papers in the field of biomedical and health sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Shanghai Jiao Tong at 48th. For life and earth sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Zhejiang at 20th. And in social sciences and humanities, the top rated East Asian university was National University of Singapore at a fairly low 80th place. [20]http://www.leidenranking.com/ranking/2017/list The difference in high impact work produced between quantitative and verbal fields for East Asian universities could hardly be clearer. Conversely, Western countries tended to excel at life sciences, medicine, social sciences, and humanities. This is further reinforced by the performance of the UK on the latest QS World University Rankings by Subject, which as noted was “heavily concentrated in Arts & Humanities subjects, the Life Sciences, and Social Sciences and Management.” [43]http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?stor...510534

A couple of caveats apply. First, compared to the rest East Asia, Japan publishes more high impact work in the life sciences. It has pockets of strength in various areas of the biological sciences ranging from immunology to cell biology to regenerative medicine, as anyone familiar with names such as Yoshinori Ohsumi, Kazutoshi Mori, Shimon Sakaguchi, Tasuku Honjo, or Tadamitsu Kishimoto can attest. Most famously, Shinya Yamanaka invented iPS cells back in 2006, giving birth to a whole new field of regenerative medicine in which Japan has established itself as a world leader. [21]https://www.ft.com/content/254853b2-8f23-11e7-9084-d...42ba93

Shinya Yamanaka, the scientist who first created induced pluripotent stem cells in 2006.
Shinya Yamanaka, the scientist who first created induced pluripotent stem cells in 2006.

China on the other hand publishes more high impact work in mathematics and computer science compared to Japan or Korea. For instance, US News Global most recently ranked Tsinghua University as the number one computer science program in the world. [22]https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-univers...cience Apart from that though, in general all East Asian countries tend to prefer fields such as physics, chemistry, materials science, and engineering.

My main prediction here then is that based on HBD, I don’t expect China or East Asia to rival the Anglosphere in the life sciences and medicine or other verbally loaded scientific fields. Perhaps China can mirror Japan in developing pockets of strengths in various areas of the life sciences. Given its significantly larger population, this might indeed translate into non-trivial high-end output in the fields of biology and biomedicine. The core strengths of East Asian countries though, as science in the region matures, will lie primarily in quantitative areas such as physics or chemistry, and this is where I predict the region will shine in the coming years. China’s recent forays into quantum cryptography provide one such example. [40]https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610106/chinese-sa...nents/

Thus, while some point to overall scientific output across a full spectrum of fields in the physical sciences, life sciences, and social sciences as proof that East Asians aren’t as well represented as they should be, a more nuanced understanding suggests that in actuality East Asians are merely gravitating towards what they’re naturally good at. That countries like China and Japan excel at fields like physics or chemistry relative to say psychology or clinical medicine and disproportionately publish in the former as opposed to the latter is hardly a mystery. It’s merely a reflection of underlying HBD.

Beyond Science: Technology and Engineering

East Asia also clearly excels in technology and engineering. East Asian countries are international patenting powerhouses and in case you hadn’t noticed, virtually every bit of advanced modern-day consumer electronics hardware is manufactured in East Asia. This is a point often ignored in HBD related discussions.

The Financial Times notes that “Japan remains an innovation powerhouse, according to a geographical analysis of patenting that shows Tokyo-Yokohama is much the largest such cluster in world. The study comes from the World Intellectual Property Organization (Wipo), based in Geneva, which analyzed the addresses of inventors named in all 950,000 international patent applications published between 2011 and 2015 under the Patent Cooperation Treaty. Two other Japanese clusters, Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto and Nagoya, are in the global top ten. The results also show strong inventive activity elsewhere in east Asia, with China’s Shenzhen-Hong Kong taking second place in Wipo’s rankings, ahead of California’s Silicon Valley in third and Seoul in South Korea. European clusters appear lower down the rankings, with Paris at number 10 and Frankfurt-Mannheim at 12. The UK does poorly, with London at 21, Cambridge at 55 and Oxford at 88.” [23]https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-2...e998b2

In fact, as anyone who’s been paying attention has noticed, modern day tech is essentially a California and East Asian affair, with the former focused on software and the latter more so on hardware. American companies dominate in the realm of internet infrastructure and platforms, while East Asia is predominant in consumer electronics hardware, although as noted, China does have its own versions of general purpose tech giants in companies like Baidu, Alibaba, and Tencent. By contrast, Europe today has relatively few well known tech companies apart from some successful apps such as Spotify or Skype and entities such as Nokia or Ericsson. [24]http://www.unz.com/akarlin/europe-cant-into-big-tech/ It used to have more established technology companies back in the day, but the onslaught of competition from the US and East Asia put a huge dent in Europe’s technology industry.

An old 1991 article from the Washington Post during the height of Japan bashing in the West notes that “the “Nippophobia” phenomenon has gathered momentum largely because there appear to be no easy answers to prevent the likelihood that European unemployment, already much higher than in the United States, is about to increase, or that if protectionist measures are invoked to save jobs, prices will have to soar and thus hurt the European consumer. Europe’s computer industries are on the verge of collapse because they cannot compete with Japanese and American companies that adapt more quickly to swiftly changing technologies. The Netherlands’ electronics giant Philips, Italy’s Olivetti and France’s Bull have been forced to slash thousands of people from their employment rolls this year. Even with more billion-dollar bailouts from governments, their survival prospects are bleak.” [25]https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991...japan- bashing/0b9b1f7b-e578-4aae-926b-e2bdd6809f68/

Indeed, the association of East Asia with high tech is fairly evident when one considers the most well-known brands in each global region. A large share of the most famous East Asian brands are tech companies. By comparison, well-known European brands generally tend to be luxury fashion or car companies. [26]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/app...1.html Quick, name the most prominent East Asian companies that come to mind. My guess is that you probably threw out names like Samsung, LG, Toshiba, Panasonic, Sony, Lenovo, BYD, DJI, or Huawei. Now, name the most famous European brands you can think of. Here, my guess is that you probably first thought of brands like Gucci, Burberry, Versace, Louis Vuitton, Hermes, Armani, Chanel, or Prada.

From  BrandZ data shows that top Chinese brands generally tend to be tech related
From [47]http://www.wpp.com/wpp/marketing/brandz/china-50-2018/ BrandZ data shows that top Chinese brands generally tend to be tech related
From , BrandZ data shows that France lives up to its reputation as a world capital in luxury fashion
From [48]http://www.millwardbrown.com/brandz/top-french-bran...s/2018, BrandZ data shows that France lives up to its reputation as a world capital in luxury fashion

Although many will point to institutional factors such as China or the United States enjoying large, unfragmented markets to explain the decline of European tech, I actually want to offer a more HBD oriented explanation not only for why Europe seems to lag in technology and engineering relative to America and East Asia, but also for why tech in the United States is skewed towards software, while tech in East Asia is skewed towards hardware. I believe that the various phenomenon described above can all be explained by one common underlying mechanism, namely the math/verbal split. Simply put, if you’re really good at math, you gravitate towards hardware. If your skills are more verbally inclined, you gravitate towards software. In general, your chances of working in engineering and technology are greatly bolstered by being spatially and quantitatively adept.

Thus, HBD ultimately explains where a non-trivial percentage of East Asian cognitive capital is allocated to. Besides being skewed towards the mathematical and physical sciences, many East Asians end up working in practical technology and engineering. This means that merely considering science and in particular the full range of scientific fields, misses out on the fact that many East Asians gravitate towards the middle two letters of the STEM acronym. Having pointed out that modern day consumer electronics is essentially an East Asian industry, I also want to highlight the obvious fact that East Asian Americans are vastly overrepresented in the tech industry in Silicon Valley and have made many important contributions there as well. One good example is modern day computer graphics, which is basically dominated by Nvidia and AMD, which bought ATI Technologies back in 2006 and incorporated it into its own graphics division. Jen Hsun-Huang was one of the co-founders of Nvidia and today remains its CEO and primary spokesperson. ATI Technologies, which would later become the Radeon graphics division of AMD, was founded by four Chinese Canadians, Lee Ka Lau, Francis Lau, Benny Lau, and Kwok Yuen Ho, back in 1985 in Ontario, Canada. [28]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Technologies#History East Asian Americans are also undoubtedly over-represented among the technical workforce at prominent tech companies such as Nvidia or the likes. [31]http://www.nvidia.com/object/fy15-workforce-perform...e.html

Indeed, despite oft repeated claims by progressives that Silicon Valley is so, so white, at many of the elite tech companies in the Bay Area, whites are actually under-represented along with blacks and Hispanics. The general picture from diversity numbers released by many of the top companies such as Google, Facebook, or Uber shows that whites tend to be slightly underrepresented overall, more underrepresented in technical roles, and overrepresented at the executive level relative to their total percentage amongst the general population. [27]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspirac...white/ [45]https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/03/28/...26318/ This seems to jive with my own personal impressions as well from having worked in the tech sector the past number of years. In general, the more technically and quantitatively demanding the role, the greater the degree of Asian American overrepresentation. It’s not a huge surprise that the whitest parts of most tech companies tend to be in areas such as marketing, product, sales, design, or at the executive levels.

From USA Today. Breakout of employees by race in technical roles at Uber
From USA Today. Breakout of employees by race in technical roles at Uber

Let’s take a moment then to appreciate the role that East Asians and East Asian Americans play in modern day tech and engineering. Just think of all of the accoutrements of modernity such as smartphones, flat panel TVs, tablets, and SSDs that we purchase from East Asian companies like Samsung, Sony, or LG that have become part and parcel of our 21st century lifestyle. It’s good stuff, so keep that shit coming and let’s bring on those bendable OLED screens! [29]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxnv_QKxXf0 (Before anyone makes the usual arguments, let me point out that the father of the OLED is typically considered to be a Chinese American Ching-Tang, who did his work while at Eastman Kodak in the 1980s. It would hardly be surprising given his various accolades if a Nobel Prize in chemistry was also in the offing. [30]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_W._Tang#Biography)

Ching Tang, considered to be the father of the OLED
Ching Tang, considered to be the father of the OLED

Conclusion

I hope I’ve convinced you that the correct way of thinking about HBD is fundamentally along the lines of the math/verbal split more so than along the lines of overall IQ or g, not that those concepts don’t have their relevant areas of use. Once math/verbal split is taken into account, I believe certain things become less mysterious, so to speak. Of course, this isn’t to say that proponents of HBD have never discussed the math/verbal split before. For instance, blogger Steve Sailer once noted that major race differences tended to mirror sex differences and that in particular the Japanese possessed cognitively masculine skills such as excelling at mathematics and the 3-D rotation of objects, which contributed to their technological and manufacturing prowess on the world stage. [32]https://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/04/rev-wright-on-bl...e.html. Very rarely though have I seen this understanding taken to its logical conclusion, with all of its attendant empirical predictions. I hope that this article is a step in that direction.

If my assertions here are correct, I predict that over the coming decades, we’ll increasingly see different groups of people specialize in areas where they’re most proficient at. This means that East Asians and East Asian societies will be characterized by a skew towards quantitative STEM fields such as physics, chemistry, and engineering and towards hardware and high-tech manufacturing, while Western societies will be characterized by a skew towards the biological sciences and medicine, social sciences, humanities, and software and services. [41]https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/...d-land Likewise, India also appears to be a country whose strengths lie more in software and services as opposed to hardware and manufacturing. My fundamental thesis is that all of this is ultimately a reflection of underlying HBD, in particular the math/verbal split. I believe this is the crucial insight lacking in the analyses others offer.

So maybe it’s less that East Asians are significantly smarter than other ethnic groups and more that they’re significantly more quantitatively inclined. Being good at math is only one kind of intelligence, so to speak. A philosopher like Daniel Dennett may be no Terence Tao, but based on anecdotal evidence of Tao’s somewhat modest verbal abilities relative to his preeminent mathematical talents, it’s safe to say that neither is Tao Dennett. Rather, they’re two men with differing cognitive profiles and different strengths and weaknesses. Ultimately each pursued a career most suited to his innate talents. One became a philosopher and the other a mathematician. Like they say, to each his own.

In light of all this then, why does American society consistently characterize East Asians as exceptionally intelligent rather than adopt perhaps a more nuanced perspective? It probably has to do with the enormous prestige that mathematical aptitude commands. Even if one isn’t good at much else, as long as you’re good at math, people usually still associate you with brilliance. We often hear jokes about how math and science are the real subjects compared to the social sciences or humanities. And even within the natural sciences, it’s often assumed that physics is a more preeminent and senior science relative to say biology. This implicit intellectual hierarchy was more explicitly stated in Jerome Kagan’s book The Three Cultures, where he described physics as the sun and mathematics its core, with various other lesser subjects as planets increasingly distant from and in orbit around the sun. [33]Kagan, J. (2009). The Three Cultures: Natural Sciences, Social Sciences and the Humanities in the 21st century. Indeed, apart from the obvious utility of the life sciences, many other fields relying mostly upon verbal aptitude often seem to deliver questionable value, while math seems to be almost universally useful. In particular, modern day psychology, social sciences, and humanities often seem to be beset by ideological biases and suffer from a clear lack of replicability. [34]https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/...72272/ Social science might better be described these days as social justice, as so-called scientists often merely reinforce their ideological priors and preach politically correct, sanctimonious bullshit. Ideology masquerading as science, alas.

In contrast, mathematics is beautiful, elegant, and seemingly the language of the universe. An intelligent extraterrestrial species will almost certainly not read or write English or any of the current extant languages of planet Earth. But it almost certainly will possess many of the same fundamental mathematical concepts that we homo-sapiens possess. It’s hard to see how it could otherwise be. As physicist Steve Hsu opines, “high verbal ability is useful for appearing to be smart, or for winning arguments and impressing other people, but it’s really high math ability that is useful for discovering things about the world- that is, discovering truth or reasoning rigorously.” [35]http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2011/06/high-v-low-m.html Indeed, there’s much to the idea that deep mathematical understanding unlocks a realm of knowledge beyond what can merely be articulated through verbal concepts alone. In reference to physicist Eugene Wigner’s remarks about the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, physicist Steven Weinberg wrote about the equally unreasonable ineffectiveness of philosophy in his book Dreams of a Final Theory, suggesting that no physicists he knew of in the post-WW2 era meaningfully benefitted in their work from philosophy in any way. [36]http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Stev...9D.pdf

It truly is remarkable then how mathematics not only helps us to unlock a deep understanding of nature, but also allows us to become nature’s master as well. Blogger Lion of the Blogosphere, aka The Artist Formerly Known as Half Sigma, puts it thusly. Mathematical ability is highly conducive to value creation, while verbal ability is highly conducive to value transference. [37]http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2011/07/ste...s.html Mathematically adept nerds are the real value creators, while their more extroverted, socially dominant, and verbally glib counterparts transfer that underlying value to themselves as business executives. Engineers are great at creating things for value for others to consume. Lawyers and businessmen on the other hand seem mostly proficient at extracting wealth created by others for themselves.

Perhaps not surprisingly then, while modern day Japan is a high-tech engineering powerhouse exporting tangible things of value that others around the world want to buy, the field of law seems to be rather a bit of a dud in the country, with lawyers literally running out of things to do. [38]http://www.unz.com/isteve/wsj-japans-lawyers-need-m...tcies/ And perhaps equally unsurprisingly, the American economy was nearly wrecked by bankers and snake oil salesmen a decade ago, and in general the country seems to be run by a coterie of lawyers and TV stars, while in contrast Chinese leaders seem to disproportionately possess engineering degrees instead. [42]https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Chinese-political-leade...egrees

In America, despite the enormous prestige that mathematics commands, there also seems to be a concurrent underlying math phobia. This strange love/hate relationship Americans have with math means that often those most lacking in mathematical acumen somehow convince themselves that being smart is merely a function of how loudly you shout over someone else or how articulate you are at voicing your own opinions. (Just look at all of the talking heads on opinion television today pontificating endlessly from their bully pulpits, if you don’t believe what I’m saying is true.) We often hear this expressed as clichés about how Americans are taught to embrace critical thinking. In contrast, motivated by HBD, I’ve long been espousing a philosophy that I’ve somewhat cheekily referred to as cognitive elitism. Perhaps though it’s better to refer to that ideology as quantitative supremacism instead. (Contrast cognitive elitism on the one hand with the philosophical worldview of well-known HBD commenter Whiskey on the other, whose passion for pointing out how much white women hate, hate, hate beta males and instead prefer tall, dark, and handsome men of color might instead be aptly referred to as cock-nitive elitism.)

Intelligence matters for the functioning of a modern-day STEM society and it matters quite a bit. The paradox of egalitarianism implies that as environments increasingly become equalized among disparate parts of the population, by definition a greater percentage of the remaining variance in life outcomes must be attributed to differences in innate intelligence instead. And as phenomenon like the math/verbal split or the asymmetry in usefulness between mathematical and verbal aptitude suggest, maybe we should appreciate and revere precisely those individuals and groups most adept at quantitative reasoning, who rather than merely engaging in cheap talk and empty braggadocio, quietly crank away behind the scenes, tirelessly powering the scientific and technological engine of modernity. So, shout it out loud with me my brothers and sisters. Shout it aloud from every street corner and mountain top, with the same relentless vigor and tenacity shown by our good friend John Derbyshire when it comes to tirelessly warning us about the perils of certain solar ethnic groups. Math is good. Math is useful. Math is sublime. Amen. We are all quantitative supremacists now!

And that’s the story. Human biodiversity simply means that different groups of people who evolved under differing conditions may possess different distributions of physical and cognitive attributes. Appreciating such nuances may prove to be best for understanding the future of the 21st century. I’m amazed by how often people far smarter than myself still discuss HBD solely in terms of overall IQ. The existence of the math/verbal split among East Asians has well been documented by scholars like Richard Lynn or Charles Murray for decades and yet in public discussions of intelligence, people invariably tend to fall back upon the usual talking points. Your humble correspondent hopes that by more forcefully articulating the established science of psychometrics, conceptual muddles can be dissolved and men and women alike awoken from their dogmatic slumbers, thereby allowing for what might ever so humbly be termed a Copernican revolution to blossom in our public understanding of intelligence and HBD.

References

[1] http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,965326-2,00.html

[2] Murray, C & Hernstein, R. J. (1996). The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. 300-301.

[3] Flynn, J. R. (2007). What is Intelligence? Beyond the Flynn Effect. 116.

[4] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0191886987901358

[5] https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/USAMO%20Qualifiers%202016_0.pdf

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scripps_National_Spelling_Bee_champions

[7] http://spellingbee.com/meet-the-spellers/2017

[8] http://www.unz.com/isteve/scores-by-race-on-lsat-gre-mcat-gmat-and-dat/

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Education

[10] http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/09/feynman-schwinger-and-psychometrics.html

[11] http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10116

[12] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/science/13prof.html

[13] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recognizing-spatial-intel/

[14] https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1998generalintelligencefactor.pdf

[15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)#Spearman’s_law_of_diminishing_returns

[16] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/26/china-spent-an-estimated-279-billion-on-rd-last-year.html

[17] http://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp9.pdf

[18] https://www.nature.com/articles/515S73a

[19] Unesco (2010). UNESCO Science Report 2010: The Current Status of Science Around the World. 12.

[20] http://www.leidenranking.com/ranking/2017/list

[21] https://www.ft.com/content/254853b2-8f23-11e7-9084-d0c17942ba93

[22] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/computer-science

[23] https://www.ft.com/content/dbb3bc26-413b-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

[24] http://www.unz.com/akarlin/europe-cant-into-big-tech/

[25] https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991/06/16/europes-new-rage-japan- bashing/0b9b1f7b-e578-4aae-926b-e2bdd6809f68/

[26] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/apple-most-valuable-brand-iphone-7-google-coca-cola-a7345501.html

[27] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/29/how-the-asians-became-white/

[28] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Technologies#History

[29] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxnv_QKxXf0

[30] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_W._Tang#Biography

[31] http://www.nvidia.com/object/fy15-workforce-performance.html

[32] https://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/04/rev-wright-on-black-white-cognitive.html

[33] Kagan, J. (2009). The Three Cultures: Natural Sciences, Social Sciences and the Humanities in the 21st century.

[34] https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/psychologys-replication-crisis-cant-be-wished-away/472272/

[35] http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2011/06/high-v-low-m.html

[36] http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Steven-Weinberg-%E2%80%9CAgainst-Philosophy%E2%80%9D.pdf

[37] http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2011/07/stem-majors.html

[38] http://www.unz.com/isteve/wsj-japans-lawyers-need-more-crime-and-bankruptcies/

[39] http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/02/test-preparation-and-sat-scores.html

[40] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610106/chinese-satellite-uses-quantum-cryptography-for-secure-video-conference-between-continents/

[41] https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2015/may/18/as-the-uk-has-discovered-there-is-no-postindustrial-promised-land

[42] https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Chinese-political-leaders-have-engineering-degrees-whereas-their-American-counterparts-have-law-degrees

[43] http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20180228175510534

[44] http://web.cos.gmu.edu/~vkunkel/feynman1.html

[45] https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/03/28/uber-diversity-reports-shows-familiar-tech-deficiencies/99726318/

[46] https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/china

[47] http://www.wpp.com/wpp/marketing/brandz/china-50-2018/

[48] http://www.millwardbrown.com/brandz/top-french-brands/2018

 
• Category: Science • Tags: East Asians, IQ, Race and Iq 
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  1. Exactly 7500 words? You could have edited it.

    There ya go.

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    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
    Yes, good piece, but needs serious editing and tightening (which coincidentally proves the main point re math-verbal split). In particular, get rid of the over-use of "I" - reminds one of a Barry Obama speech.

    Also, the thesis raises some follow-on points:

    (1) What other sub-areas of abilities (apart from verbal) are of practical importance and show divergence from general g?

    For example, features such as stubbornness in the face of accepted scientific (or political, etc.) opinion? (Think of 司馬遷, Martin Luther, Max Planck, etc.)

    (2) Given the divergence of verbal and non-verbal abilities at the right tail, does it still make sense to aggregate these measurements into a single g value?

    P.S.: Please correct the name of the Japanese physician in the caption. It's Shinya Yam_A_naka.

    , @AnotherDad
    Newsflash: East Asians are good at math!

    Never heard that before!

    Yan, the differing cognitive profiles of whites and East Asians is an interesting topic to research. And does bear significantly on the future trajectories of Asia and the West.

    However it's weird for you to pitch this skew as being insightful, especially as something HBDers overlook. As you note, Lynn notes it. Sailer's noted it. It's in all the SAT and PISA data. I don't know a single HBD believer who thinks whites and East Asians have the same cognitive profile. (As I've pointed out a few times, if a trait is not fixed but varies in among individuals within racial groups, then it must vary between racial groups. This is just math.) Most of us simply aren't as obsessed with the topic as you are. This crisis the West faces is debunking the "everyone's the same" and "diversity is our strength" nonsense that is allowing our home to be flooded with foreigners--particularly low IQ, culturally alien ones, incapable of supporting civilization. (We're still trying to get across HBD 101.)

    But the "Asians are good at math" is so obvious it's obvious not to just HBDers, it's obvious at the level of a sitcom trope.

    ~~~

    Finally you're "fundamental" insight here:

    I hope I’ve convinced you that the correct way of thinking about HBD is fundamentally along the lines of the math/verbal split more so than along the lines of overall IQ or g, not that those concepts don’t have their relevant areas of use.
     
    is just plain wrong. General intelligence utterly dominates HBD issues from a global perspective. If you have one variable to talk about both for the performance of races and individuals ... that's it.

    Even in the rise of East Asia, the more mathematical profile of East Asian IQ is a pale 3rd. Not only are you wrong about IQ being #1, you haven't even figured out what's most important specifically about Asians with respect to whites (and others) that helped Asia surge forward:

    #1 -- High IQ.
    #2 -- East Asian personality profile. High conscientiousness, cooperation, obedience, hard working "grinder" personality.
    #3 -- Mathematical orientation.

    1+2 have actually dominated in helping Asia catch up. Even if Asians had the same IQ math/verbal profile as whites, they would have managed a very similar surge and catching up. It's really about IQ supercharged by East Asians high capacity to follow orders and work hard.

    Without #3 Asians wouldn't be dominating quite as much in high tech. But the East Asian capacity for conscientious hard work would still make them a manufactoring powerhouse--including high tech. (Most East Asians aren't designing anything, they are putting stuff together, but doing it far better, with fewer defects, less complaining and at lower cost than can be done in the West, much less the NAMy 3rd world.)

    Where the Asians math/verbal skew will really come to the fore isn't so much the catching up they've done, but the going forward, where we've seen--first in Japan, then Korea, but eventually we'll see from China--where they actually get in front and produce more advanced products. (Not just better products produced cheaply, but actually more advanced products.)

    The future looks pretty bright East Asia. (If China can avoid supremacism and bossing everyone else around). But the truth is even there the math/verbal split isn't the main reason. The main reason is because the West is committing suicide via diversity. If East Asian nations avoid that ... they'll win by default.
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  2. Yan Shen says:

    Thanks to Ron for uh publishing my work. After years of engaging with various people in these circles, it’s nice to be a published contributor at last!

    A couple of comments. I cribbed this article together over a period of a day and half while working, and consider it to be a first version. I cut out some stuff from this iteration and have some additional material that I’m working on that I estimate will add an additional 50% to this published article.

    Some topics that I didn’t get to the first time around are 1) the parallel between the cognitive profiles of East Asians relative to Europeans and that of men relative to women, 2) how autistics seem to have a cognitive profile similar to that of East Asians and are also correspondingly over-represented in mathematical circles, 3) in general as indicated by SMPY/SVPY, math/verbal tilt has a clear correlation with both educational attainment and occupational status, and 4) fleshing out various parts of my article, including making a clearer argument for what I’ve termed uh “quantitative supremacism”, by explaining not only why math is more useful than verbal, but also why hardware trumps software and why manufacturing trumps services. So maybe later on whether here or somewhere else, version 2.0 of this article will be published as well.

    For now though, enjoy!

    Read More
    • Replies: @DJV Melville
    A wonderful article!

    Some remarks-
    Verbally smart people already consider those who understand and apply maths superior to themselves.

    They rely on those who attempt to straddle the two spheres (like you) to translate maths into metaphorical language so that they have a very partial understanding of what it means, which is far better than no understanding.

    They, perhaps arrogantly, consider everything, including the natural world revealed by maths, to be grist to their linguistic mill.

    Minor points: you probably hurriedly 'cobbled' rather than 'cribbed' your article together.
    'Cocknitive' was good, and probably contains a fair amount of truth, similar to believing that the cause of AIDS is the common or garden cockchafer.

    Regards,
    Diana Melville
    , @jim jones
    I see you are still doing the "uh" thing
    , @gmachine1729
    Yan,

    Very well written piece, with detailed and shall I say more or less accurate perspective, compatible with the data time and time again. I've written similarly on my blog as well.

    Ironic though is that while now East Asians are seen as skewed in favor of STEM, East Asian civilization was quite wanting in its development of theoretical science, though this is not entirely due to the lopsided cognitive profile. Though overall, I see that East Asians in STEM are generally more concrete, computational, spatial, there have also appeared quite a few who would be regarded as deeper, more theoretical thinkers with very high V. On this, I was somewhat surprised to learn, for instance, how much East Asians (mostly Japanese, but there's also Yang, Lee) actually contributed to theoretical physics later on in the 20th century. From what I've seen, the top Chinese mathematicians and theoretical physicists from the old generation were very well-versed culturally and linguistically.

    By the way, I've seen your comments on Hsu's blog regarding discrimination against Asian-Americans, and I can surely identify somewhat. As much as they may like to, they are not really in an economic or political position to do much against it, though that is changing. I do believe that Asian Americans would do much better, especially at the top, if they could care less about what other people think and develop more in accord with their natural inclinations. However, this is far from the reality especially with the Asian quotas and biases of certain people in power.

    You wrote about China's STEM. It seems to have gone up drastically the past few decades. It is already at or close to world class level on the applied side, in engineering and technology. Though in basic science research, it seems still quite distant, unlike Japan, but this again is just a matter of time. Modern science is more or less a Western tradition starting from the Greeks, and while Chinese do have the talent, developing the right tradition and culture for that takes generations. Ultimately, ethnic Chinese should be doing their best science in China, as opposed to in American institutions, which can only accommodate so many. I genuinely believe more diversity and independence in scientific schools of thought would be beneficial for science and for the world at large.

    Also, thanks to Ron Unz for providing Yan with such a venue to publicize his thoughtful ideas.
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  3. JJ says:

    The math and verbal split indeed seems be able to explain a lot of things. But i don’t understand why software is more influenced by verbal instead of math skills? Also, with a huge population that gives chinese doctors and researchers a great advantage in obtaining clinical data, as well as a strong government support, less restricted laws and a more relaxing attitude in religion, i see China has more potential in biomedical and clinical research compared to the US or EU. For example, China currently is said to lead in gene editing in the world despite the fact they got into the game relatively late.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Zumbuddi
    E Asians are over represented in genomics labs in DC region.
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  4. Very interesting and informative article, I for one hope to see more of Yan Shen’s writings published on UR in the future.

    Read More
    • Agree: Talha, mark green
    • Replies: @Realist
    But much condensed.
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  5. …virtually every bit of advanced modern-day consumer electronics hardware is manufactured in East Asia.

    … because detail-oriented manufacturing labor is cheap there.

    Perhaps this is one of the reasons “why tech in the United States is skewed towards software, while tech in East Asia is skewed towards hardware.”

    Economics and business have helped determine which kinds of talents have grown in East Asia. Intellectual flowers have grown wherever American capital has been showered.

    Maybe someone could, uh, write a long paper about how trade might have skewed development in specific directions.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar

    ...because detail-oriented manufacturing labor is cheap there.
     
    Nonsense.

    By analysing the detailed value-added turnkey high tech parts along the value chains of the leading electronics brands such as Samsung, Huawei and Apple for instance, you'll soon realise that it's by and large an East Asian affair nowadays, and in the forseeable future if you look into where the most cutting-edge technological R&D and breakthroughs are made. Even some "American" contributions here largely contain technologies of East-Asian origin. Probably the only piece of European contribution worth-mentioning in the entire value chain is from Dutch tech giant ASML, which is made possible by several critical German turnkey tech suppliers who are increasingly facing the statue-quo competitions from some deep-pocket East Asian start-ups particularly from China.

    , @ThreeCranes
    My response as well. There's a bit of chicken and egg thing to this. After manufacturing moved to Asia is it any surprise that the latent talent there was given incentive and opportunity to express itself? Meanwhile, here, in the good ol' USofA, with our job market favoring those with verbal skills, we leave a lot of visual-spatial and math talent lying on the sidewalk
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  6. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I didn’t know that Unz Review had a table of contents feature. I’m guessing that Ron developed it for one of his own gargantuan articles. He’s probably thrilled to get to use it here.

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  7. Factorize says:

    gwern instead of gwen

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  8. Zumbuddi says:

    Lower class / less intelligent Asians don’ t make it to USA.

    High IQ 5th generation (European aka White, non Jewish) American Millenials were subjected to social engineering designed to disfavor them in preference for White Jews and immigrants. Jews who dominate education system designed the Gifted programs in which these students spent their entire K – 12 public schooling.
    Unless their parents were astute enough to get them out of government schools and into Montessori or Home School, these kids are ruined. They are SJWs. You saw them wearing Pussy hats in DC on Jan 21 2017.
    That’s what social engineering elites have done to America’s Best and Brightest White young people.

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  9. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Just one question. Will there be a quiz?

    Because I sort of zoned out after the first few thousand words…

    However: if thus sequestering Mr Yan into his own zone on this site will serve to keep him out of the comment threads, I’m all for it.

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    • LOL: bomag
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  10. Zumbuddi says:
    @JJ
    The math and verbal split indeed seems be able to explain a lot of things. But i don't understand why software is more influenced by verbal instead of math skills? Also, with a huge population that gives chinese doctors and researchers a great advantage in obtaining clinical data, as well as a strong government support, less restricted laws and a more relaxing attitude in religion, i see China has more potential in biomedical and clinical research compared to the US or EU. For example, China currently is said to lead in gene editing in the world despite the fact they got into the game relatively late.

    E Asians are over represented in genomics labs in DC region.

    Read More
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  11. Realist says:
    @the Supreme Gentleman
    Very interesting and informative article, I for one hope to see more of Yan Shen's writings published on UR in the future.

    But much condensed.

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  12. An excellent article and well researched. I agree with many conclusions, however, my first problem is with your statement about SATs not being compromised. In high school my friend wanted to go to West Point. He had 815 on his SATs. This was many years ago, not the SATs of today. He went to a military prep school for a year. He raised his SATs to 1250. He made it to West Point and is now a Colonel.

    In the same class the number one student, a female couldn’t get 800 on the SATs. She just couldn’t take the test and would get so tense she just would be in tears. She had straight A’s in everything but SAT test phobia. She became a doctor.

    One of my fishing buddies is a retired guidance counselor. He takes top notch students and teaches them how to take the SATs and raise their scores. It works for him. A male student two years ahead of me in high school missed only one question on his SATs. He is now in a mental institution.

    The next problem I have is the number of papers published as criterion for excellence. You can publish anything if you have the money. Computer software is publishing fake articles:https://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2014/feb/26/how-computer-generated-fake-papers-flooding-academia. Most of the papers published today are a joke and most of the people writing them don’t understand the statistics they use. Taleb has pointed this out many times.

    You should also check out the number of papers retracted. I believe the Asian countries have some of the highest numbers in science.

    Your idea that because you are great in one area does not mean that you’ll be great or even competent in another discipline is well established in my estimation. Sir Isaac Newton was a brilliant physicist but had a child like understanding of biology and was a closet alchemist. There was a famous chemist who won the Nobel Prize years ago who didn’t understand basic ecology and made a number stupid statements that left people wondering how he got the Nobel Prize (can’t remember his name). I knew a woman who made her living editing and revising books on engineering. She thought engineers were the worse writers in the world.

    Finally, perhaps the worse offenders are those in the humanities and social sciences (these are not sciences; just because you quantify something doesn’t make it better especially if it’s garbage to begin with). You can watch these people on tv, the web and in books trying to write, interpret, and pontificate on stuff they know nothing about. The really sad part is the talking head on the likes of CNN, MSNBC, ABC or any other network who don’t realize that these people are not real scientists and are dead wrong on just about everything they say.

    Overall this is a very good article and I thank you for writing it.

    (I am having problems with editing tonight with the website; it keeps jumping around ; it could be my browser; also last night I got some strange code at the top of the page)

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    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome, @Yan Shen
    The Leiden rankings are based on total number of top 10% cited papers published, but yes this is still to some extent a measure of quantity given that typically East Asian universities have a lower percentage of all published papers which end up in the top 10%.
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  13. @Yan Shen
    Thanks to Ron for uh publishing my work. After years of engaging with various people in these circles, it's nice to be a published contributor at last!

    A couple of comments. I cribbed this article together over a period of a day and half while working, and consider it to be a first version. I cut out some stuff from this iteration and have some additional material that I'm working on that I estimate will add an additional 50% to this published article.

    Some topics that I didn't get to the first time around are 1) the parallel between the cognitive profiles of East Asians relative to Europeans and that of men relative to women, 2) how autistics seem to have a cognitive profile similar to that of East Asians and are also correspondingly over-represented in mathematical circles, 3) in general as indicated by SMPY/SVPY, math/verbal tilt has a clear correlation with both educational attainment and occupational status, and 4) fleshing out various parts of my article, including making a clearer argument for what I've termed uh "quantitative supremacism", by explaining not only why math is more useful than verbal, but also why hardware trumps software and why manufacturing trumps services. So maybe later on whether here or somewhere else, version 2.0 of this article will be published as well.

    For now though, enjoy!

    A wonderful article!

    Some remarks-
    Verbally smart people already consider those who understand and apply maths superior to themselves.

    They rely on those who attempt to straddle the two spheres (like you) to translate maths into metaphorical language so that they have a very partial understanding of what it means, which is far better than no understanding.

    They, perhaps arrogantly, consider everything, including the natural world revealed by maths, to be grist to their linguistic mill.

    Minor points: you probably hurriedly ‘cobbled’ rather than ‘cribbed’ your article together.
    ‘Cocknitive’ was good, and probably contains a fair amount of truth, similar to believing that the cause of AIDS is the common or garden cockchafer.

    Regards,
    Diana Melville

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen

    Minor points: you probably hurriedly ‘cobbled’ rather than ‘cribbed’ your article together.
     
    Haha, yeah. That was clearly a uh brain freeze on my part... Too bad you can't edit your comments after the 5 minute mark.
    , @WhiteWolf
    When I was at school I was a natural at maths. I couldn't understand why people had problems with it. To me it was a ridiculously easy subject. Yet I watched in awe one day as a student drew a scene from a sci-fi movie he had watched from memory. As I heaped praise on his talent he just shrugged. To him that was ridiculously easy and he thought nothing of it. I think we all tend to downplay our own talents and admire people who show talent in something we struggle with.
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  14. … apart from some successful apps such as Spotify or Skype and entities such as Nokia or Ericsson

    Does anyone not notice the geographic profile of the successful European companies? Scandinavians. Can this be explained in terms of skewed IQ?

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  15. Dr. Doom says:

    Steve Sailer is a Math Whiz but his occidental views are too far away from the Pacific Rim to get into the details of it. I happen to have had a Youth in Asia and then become immersed in American Culture. I saw both sides and its not inscrutable to me. In the Far East, its not a Tiger Mom, but a serious pressure cooker culture for young males to succeed. They expect you to be the best since Family comes first. Here in the West, its a laid back and lackadaisical attitude. They actually drugged me with Ritalin for pointing out mistakes the low paid schoolmarms made on the chalkboard.
    Men in America are told to slack off. That guy Strickland in Back to the Future is ACTUALLY A VILLAIN for wanting Marty McFly to get to school on time. This joke must fly over the heads of the Far Eastern Audience. Far Eastern kids go to testing coaches. They drill constantly. American men are slacking off, sleeping around and being drugged and STILL DOING WELL ON THESE TESTS.

    DO not underestimate the Genetic Potential of the White Man. They are living in unfavorable conditions and being drugged for not slacking off. The Far Eastern kids are stressing out, getting tutors and even cheating, but not doing that far better than White Men that are being fed anti-academic propaganda and being induced to not be responsible.

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    • Replies: @JSM

    However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science

     

    Explain to me... China has had 5000 years of civilization. How come it was White Guys in Europe that had to invent and discover all the physics, chemistry, engineering and math that Yan is now telling us how amazing China's rise in these fields is?

    Yan will say, "Oh! White man, he just picked all the low-hanging fruit. It's the Asians who are now doing all the hard work."

    So, why WAS it that the White man did the low-fruit-picking? China's been a civilization for 5000 years. Why did THEY not pick that easy fruit? Huh? Where ya been for the last 5 millenia, Superior Asian Man? Huh?

    , @Stan d Mute
    Your comment and some others is a forest/trees issue I think and I see it also in the original article. It appears that white people (and South Asians ie Subcontinental Indians) have a higher percentage at the extreme fringes than do East Asians who cluster (like Sub-Saharan Africans and women) closer to their mean. This is highly relevant when we look at exceptionalism no? In gross numbers, East Asian populations will yield more very good math/science practitioners. At the most extreme levels, per capita, they have fewer, but here gross population numbers come to the fore so they’re likely to produce overall more geniuses as well except perhaps at the level of Fields Medalists or history changing physicists.

    Then there’s the issue of herd mentality which seems strongest among whites and East Asians. Having adopted, largely without the endless debating of the originators (Jews), the idea of anti-exceptionalism, we suppress exceptionalism while the East Asians are somewhat less on board despite (or perhaps because) having exterminated 50,000,000 of their own by blindly following such a reprehensible idea without the incessant debates that have largely prevented Jews from wholesale adoption themselves.
    , @Dmitry

    Steve Sailer is a Math Whiz
     
    He's obviously the very talented and witty writer (who is great fun to read), but he doesn't know how to basic statistics.
    , @CraigAustin
    I was put on Ritalin for reading entire books instead of the assigned chapters. I can only assume it was because the teacher hadn't finished the books and didn't want me to spoil it. It didn't work, I pocketed the pills and read everything for the rest of the year and the next. Girls were encouraged to read, and I was drugged for it.
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  16. @Buzz Mohawk

    ...virtually every bit of advanced modern-day consumer electronics hardware is manufactured in East Asia.
     
    ... because detail-oriented manufacturing labor is cheap there.

    Perhaps this is one of the reasons "why tech in the United States is skewed towards software, while tech in East Asia is skewed towards hardware."

    Economics and business have helped determine which kinds of talents have grown in East Asia. Intellectual flowers have grown wherever American capital has been showered.

    Maybe someone could, uh, write a long paper about how trade might have skewed development in specific directions.

    …because detail-oriented manufacturing labor is cheap there.

    Nonsense.

    By analysing the detailed value-added turnkey high tech parts along the value chains of the leading electronics brands such as Samsung, Huawei and Apple for instance, you’ll soon realise that it’s by and large an East Asian affair nowadays, and in the forseeable future if you look into where the most cutting-edge technological R&D and breakthroughs are made. Even some “American” contributions here largely contain technologies of East-Asian origin. Probably the only piece of European contribution worth-mentioning in the entire value chain is from Dutch tech giant ASML, which is made possible by several critical German turnkey tech suppliers who are increasingly facing the statue-quo competitions from some deep-pocket East Asian start-ups particularly from China.

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  17. Patrick82 says:

    I’ve read that the Chinese turned away from mathematics sometime during the Ming dynasty and that by the 19th century, most learned Chinese were not well versed in the discipline. Many mandarin officials who questioned reformers during the “Self-Strengthening Movement” in the 1860s (in the aftermath of the Opium wars) were skeptical of “Western science”, which by this time of course had surpassed China in all fields save perhaps medicine. Words like “trickery” and “magic” were frequently used by more orthodox literati-scholars whenever the “strange techniques of the barbarians” were discussed.

    It seems to me that the best and brightest in China at that time (if indeed the scholar-officials can be described in those terms) were dedicated to endeavors that required more verbal ability…the eight-legged essays, poetry, history and philosophy.

    I don’t doubt the author’s conclusions, just wanted to throw this out here.

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    It seems to me that the best and brightest in China at that time (if indeed the scholar-officials can be described in those terms) were dedicated to endeavors that required more verbal ability…the eight-legged essays, poetry, history and philosophy.
     
    Yes, I wondered about this, too. And so I was considering whether it is explained by the differences between alphabetically-written languages and those employing characters. (This is entire field of investigation within the discipline of western Classics (in particular, Greek studies).) My thinking was running along the lines of: written Chinese is more oriented toward conceptual understanding and less toward verbal nuance, detailed explanations. I think Chinese grammar has this tendency in addition to the written characters, although I'm really guessing as I don't speak Chinese.
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  18. A very good article (although, it could be shorter) & along the lines of what I’ve been thinking all the time.

    Just, I think that author has conflated various types of intelligences, re fields he was writing about. Or perhaps we need imagination or other term & intelligence is not enough?

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, “the same” (I won’t even address the field of experimental physics). History has shown us that most important physicists in past 300 years were not nearly as good in mathematics & vice versa. For example, Einstein, who is one of 3-4 greatest physicists in history, has not possessed comparable mathematical abilities. Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_priority_dispute#General_relativity_3 ) but was realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein’s primacy.

    Feynman in one of the examples in the article. As I recall, he said something like: ” Physics is to mathematics what is sex to masturbation.” Clearly, and this is a position of most physicists- I am a theoretical physicist- we frequently treat our mathematical friends condescendingly.

    2. what about different areas of mathematics? Isn’t it possible, or probable, that different types of intelligences would produce great achievers in number theory, but not in topology? Or take other math areas.

    3. engineering, along with computer science, seems to me altogether different set of fields.

    Be as it may, this is one of rare & I hope fecund articles that will have replaced rather dull idolization of fossilized IQ debate.

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    • Replies: @lavoisier
    A lot of debate over whether Einstein deserves primary credit for either special or general relativity.
    , @Dmitry

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, “the same” (I won’t even address the field of experimental physics).
     
    In very broad and generalization sense - it is usually said that you have to be a lot smarter or more talented to reach the same professional level in theoretical physics, than in most every other fields of mathematics. And with my very brief, superficial, but painful, acquaintance with subject (physics), I can believe these sayings.
    , @voicum
    maybe you just do not know enough mathematics.
    , @utu

    Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein’s primacy.
     
    Einstein wanted to perform the same trick he did in Special Relativity where he inverted reasoning of Lorentz and derived Lorentz transforms form a postulate that velocity of light is invariant plus a trivial postulate that laws of physics are maintained in inertial systems. This he published in 1905 w/o as single reference presumably claiming that he was not aware of Lorentz and furthermore of Poincare work. Only after WWI when English translation of the 1905 paper was published Lorentz was acknowledged but not attributed as inspiration, meaning that Einstein still claimed he did not know of Lorentz work. The trick was that by postulating speed of light invariance the question of ether was rendered superfluous.

    He wanted to accomplish a similar feat with gravitation and render it superfluous so no questions about its nature and the spooky action at distance would be asked anymore. With the equivalence principle he transformed the problem to geometric problem of space. This he could not solve mathematically. So Marcel Grossman came to the rescue and did most of the math but then they get stuck with the final equation which they could not formulate nor derive. So Hilbert was approached and indeed he solved the problem and decided to publish. He showed some results to Einstein who decided to publish it w/o acknowledging Hilbert. And then came historians who started to create a myth of great Einstein and decided to erase Hilbert from the picture just like they erases Lorentz and Poincare. Some manuscripts were destroyed and some altered.


    http://www.znaturforsch.com/aa/v59a/s59a0715.pdf
    a crucial part of the printer’s proofs of Hilbert’s paper had been cut off by someone, a fact not mentioned in the paper by Corry, Renn, and Stachel, the conclusion drawn by Corry, Renn, and Stachel is untenable and has no probative value. I rather will show that the cut off part of the proofs suggests a crude attempt by some unknown individual to falsify the historical record.
     
    Orwell's “He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” is very apt here. The history narrative is being retold by those who control the present in order to control the future by altering the past.

    Just like British Empire found it very useful to construct a myth of an ultimate genius out of the crank and kook Isaac Newton similarly Jews in the beginning of 20 century created an ultimate inscrutable genius out of skillful and unscrupulous plagiarist Albert Einstein.

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  19. A great piece, Yan Shen!

    Panda’s 2 cents:

    1, Panda too, has been arguing this spatial/verbal split for a while (lol) , and particularly doubting the rationale why they’re valued at 1:1 currently in the total IQ scores since it somehow implies somewhere along the line that it takes the same amount of intelligence & energy (or neurons, their connections, speed, general efficiency… etc, lol) in conducting these two sets of very different mental tasks. Of course some try to solve the issue by correlations/multiple regressions, etc. stats tools, yet given the correlations are not perfect, therefore much room left to dig deeper and explain.

    2, So as you claimed, some people are excel at both spatial part and verbal part, whereas some others excel at spatial & regular at verbal. To the latter group, Panda however suspects it might not be entirely true.

    It’s because one’s brain energy is limited after all. If we assume that people are naturally prone to dedicate more time&energy into where they’re naturally gifted, it’s logical to deduct that some people who have regular verbal scores have actually sacrificed the verbal part by channeling more of their limited time & energy into spatially-related tasks since early-on. So in fact some of them are not necessarily regular at verbal per se at all as measured by the test. For them it’s just a choice, a deliberate or subconscious choice due to brain energy allocation.

    Since it’s likely not an 1:1 intelligence & energy imput relationship between 1 IQ point of spatial and 1 IQ point of verbal (with the spatial tasks consuming more) as Panda intuitively speculates, vís-a-vís it’s much less the case for ones who excel at verbal while scoring average spatial to be actually excel at spatial as well due to the choice.

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  20. jim jones says:
    @Yan Shen
    Thanks to Ron for uh publishing my work. After years of engaging with various people in these circles, it's nice to be a published contributor at last!

    A couple of comments. I cribbed this article together over a period of a day and half while working, and consider it to be a first version. I cut out some stuff from this iteration and have some additional material that I'm working on that I estimate will add an additional 50% to this published article.

    Some topics that I didn't get to the first time around are 1) the parallel between the cognitive profiles of East Asians relative to Europeans and that of men relative to women, 2) how autistics seem to have a cognitive profile similar to that of East Asians and are also correspondingly over-represented in mathematical circles, 3) in general as indicated by SMPY/SVPY, math/verbal tilt has a clear correlation with both educational attainment and occupational status, and 4) fleshing out various parts of my article, including making a clearer argument for what I've termed uh "quantitative supremacism", by explaining not only why math is more useful than verbal, but also why hardware trumps software and why manufacturing trumps services. So maybe later on whether here or somewhere else, version 2.0 of this article will be published as well.

    For now though, enjoy!

    I see you are still doing the “uh” thing

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  21. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Yan, I want to see data from IQ tests performed in the last ten years, broken down by religion: Hindu, Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. (Esp. for young adults 18-30)

    Does this data exist, and how could it be found?

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    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    https://isteve.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/episcopalians-v-jews-on-iq.html?m=1

    Unitarians, Quakers, Jews etc
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  22. @Buzz Mohawk

    ...virtually every bit of advanced modern-day consumer electronics hardware is manufactured in East Asia.
     
    ... because detail-oriented manufacturing labor is cheap there.

    Perhaps this is one of the reasons "why tech in the United States is skewed towards software, while tech in East Asia is skewed towards hardware."

    Economics and business have helped determine which kinds of talents have grown in East Asia. Intellectual flowers have grown wherever American capital has been showered.

    Maybe someone could, uh, write a long paper about how trade might have skewed development in specific directions.

    My response as well. There’s a bit of chicken and egg thing to this. After manufacturing moved to Asia is it any surprise that the latent talent there was given incentive and opportunity to express itself? Meanwhile, here, in the good ol’ USofA, with our job market favoring those with verbal skills, we leave a lot of visual-spatial and math talent lying on the sidewalk

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  23. Bruce says:

    I work for the biggest defense company. East Asians are present but most of the engineers including the top engineers are white males. Could be the need for a security clearance but that shouldn’t be a problem for Asian Americans.

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    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    Could be the need for a security clearance but that shouldn’t be a problem for Asian Americans.
     
    Isn’t this self-contradictory? The fact that you wrote “Asian Americans” only underscores that human tribalism is VERY real and has real world impacts which would include security clearances.
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  24. Good stuff!

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.

    BTW, for Feynman fans there’s nothing better than his video, on YouTube, Los Alamos From Below. Long and wonderful, it introduces all the giants of 20th century physics through a bright kid’s eyes.

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    • Replies: @anonymous

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.
     
    I wonder if this is due to the difficulty of the Chinese writing system? Taiwan also scored near China in reading, yet Korea and Japan scored higher, and Singapore and Hong Kong were the two highest scoring countries.
    , @TT
    https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/pisa-a-glance-global-education-rankings-science-maths-and-reading?amp

    https://www.tes.com/sites/default/files/pisa_reading_corrected.png
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  25. Yan Shen says:
    @DJV Melville
    A wonderful article!

    Some remarks-
    Verbally smart people already consider those who understand and apply maths superior to themselves.

    They rely on those who attempt to straddle the two spheres (like you) to translate maths into metaphorical language so that they have a very partial understanding of what it means, which is far better than no understanding.

    They, perhaps arrogantly, consider everything, including the natural world revealed by maths, to be grist to their linguistic mill.

    Minor points: you probably hurriedly 'cobbled' rather than 'cribbed' your article together.
    'Cocknitive' was good, and probably contains a fair amount of truth, similar to believing that the cause of AIDS is the common or garden cockchafer.

    Regards,
    Diana Melville

    Minor points: you probably hurriedly ‘cobbled’ rather than ‘cribbed’ your article together.

    Haha, yeah. That was clearly a uh brain freeze on my part… Too bad you can’t edit your comments after the 5 minute mark.

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  26. Is this the Yan Shen?

    The “I hate all White guys because they steal all the best looking Asian girls” Yan Shen?

    Either way; dull, pedantic article. Learn to edit. There’s much to be said for brevity.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Isn't the reverse true? Vox Day acknowledges as much.

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/05/mailvox-why-do-white-women-choose-black.html


    3. Low rank white women tend to be overvalued by black men. The woman who can attract only white 3s is often able to attract black 7s. I know several black male-white female couples where the black man is significantly more attractive than the white woman. This phenomenon is also often seen in white male-Asian female couples. When a woman has the option to increase her sex rank simply by expanding the pool of acceptable men, it should come as no surprise that many elect to do so.
     
    Anyone living somewhere with a large Asian population learns to recognize the hate-fact that Asian women in these relationships generally range from ugly to remarkably ugly. Miscegenation rarely has aesthetic appeal.
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  27. There are some caveats to this:

    1. Not all parts of technology are equally complex. In sectors like aerospace, East Asia has lagged behind. Again, the design problems, analytical models for design, and materials engineering, metrology, for military and space equipment (like avionics, sensors, composite materials, optics, electronics) is much more advanced than the rest put together. The USA, Russia, Israel and so on lead in these areas. It is much more complex than consumer gadgets, and it requires larger single obstacles. Single large technology innovations, like entirely new capabilities or layers of offense/defense (hypersonic munitions, radar, acoustics) were and are all made in the West or Russia. Although China might pull ahead here in the future, its strong areas are still different.

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions. Also see the work of François Jullien and Roger T. Ames on Chinese philosophy, philology and semiotics, including figures like Wang Bi. China invented a larger range of ‘secondary languages’ on top of natural language (while the West merely attempted it, e.g. the languages of Wilkins, Dalgarno, Leibniz). The West invented the single most rigorous language (formal mathematics).

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage. Pre-scientific experimentation is still just as relevant as science: heat engines were built before thermodynamics, airplanes before aerodynamics, the ‘enigma of the aerofoil’, computers before computer science, and so on.

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    • Replies: @UnzReader
    Wonderful observations...What a bracing breath of fresh air!

    Talk about foolishly short-changing an old and glorious people and civilization using baseless and stupid dichotomies.

    , @PandaAtWar
    Many sound points made there.

    Some examples you raise, however, are not entirely true:

    Current state-of-art semicon technologies inside consumer gadgets like some top smartphones don't loss a bit in their sophistications to any defence tech. Rather, most high end defence tech are rooted on these very semicon tech.

    Aerospace is a money-devouring-machine. One of the major reasons, if not the most deciding reason, why US/RUSSIA are far ahead in aerospace is due to 50-years-cold war accumulation of IMMENSE military budgets, R&D personnel and their forced hands-on experiences competing for life-or-death dominance , which neither China nor Japan had. Panda read somewhere that China's entire national budget for aerospace engine research & production, both tech, material & personnel cost, for the period from 1950s to 1980s were like meagerly 3 million dollars equivalent, which was less than the annual salary expenditure of a small US defence lab... If you add up fruits of earlier industrialisation foundation, US/UK/Japan/Germany were at least 100 years ahead of China in so many fields even at the 1980s...

    , @Bardon Kaldian

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)
     
    While I agree that there, basically, are different "mathematical intelligences", I think it is too early to say anything significant re east Asian accomplishments in math; as for Fields medals, we'll have to see what happens in next 20-30 years.

    And, by the way, your thoughtful reference to Poincare, Hadamard (and we could add most of the greats from Descartes on) shows that "math intelligence" is a rough & perhaps too contradictory a concept.

    Perhaps "intelligence" is too narrow. What about creativity, imagination, "visual thinking", non-discursive "thinking" a la Plotinus (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=5BBF8C5AE74B97F18D4379819A512F84)?

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions.
     
    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    The same with literature- poetry is not translatable, while there are no Asian equivalents to universality of Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Proust.

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage.
     
    This is partly true, but I haven't seen any progress in applying, say, acupuncture to modern medicine. In fact, it was seen to be a monumental placebo in some instances: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/ , http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html
    , @myself
    On point 2) "No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times".

    Well, if you count modern times as being from the last few centuries, say 1500 AD to the present, well that is obvious as the East Asians themselves fully admit and concede. There is a good reason that "modern times" coincides with the era of "Western Dominance". It is fair to say that Modern Times = Western Era.
    East Asia was certainly, and self-admittedly, held back by archaic and outdated systems of thought - or to put it another way, by a very backward culture. In fact, the very culture they themselves have seen fit to discard, for better or worse.

    "Cultural Appropriation" of the White Man's ideas, of you will.

    Also point 2) "In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India."

    No, respectfully disagree on this point. I don't know about generalized East Asians, but there was precious little mathematical exchange between China and India, and still less between China and Western Eurasia, at least until about 200 AD. Even from that point, the borrowing of ideas was scant. It was actually with the arrival of the Jesuit missionaries, in the 16th century, that the ideas of "modern Western mathematics", clearly superior ones, fairly deluged China and all of East Asia.

    Essentially, China developed mathematics independently - until overtaken by the modern era.

    On point 4) "China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation."

    Precisely because no culture ANYWHERE had ANY "science" of which to speak prior to about 1500, not even its eventual developers, the cultures of NorthWestern Europe. (Note, nor ALL of Europe, we are talking a very small, specific group of cultures within Europe). The ancient Greeks and Romans did not have "modern science" for example - they had inquiry and structured thought, and so did some other classical cultures.

    On point 3) "East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc"

    I would have to agree, but I must point out the obvious, and that is while engaging in wide-ranging, deep and rigorous examination of a mind-boggling range of subjects, the Chinese in particular, as a sort of "progenitor" civilization to the rest of Eastern Eurasia, have often begun from very different starting assumptions, and so have come to startlingly different conclusions and promulgated very different paradigms and views and nuances from those in Southern and Western Eurasia/North Africa.

    Conclusions and paradigms that often seem not merely "foreign", but rather downright "alien" to the Western mind.

    As a side note, the directions of inquiry and conclusions of Subcontinental Indian thinkers are also quite alien to those from outside South Asia.
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  28. “Spaceship Earth” needs the crew to renew it.
    Nerdy blowback is further to screw it.
    Albert Einstein was wise,
    Without Faustian guise.
    “Know thyself”? Martian robots can’t do it.

    Read More
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  29. wayfarer says:

    Spent over twenty years earning part-time income as an independent K-12 math and science tutor.

    Most of the work was Internet-based, utilizing a high-speed data connection, landline phone, join.me, and PDF textbooks written by the best authors.

    A self-reliant kid can master arithmetic and establish a sound algebraic foundation with “themathpage.”

    source: http://www.themathpage.com/

    He can then master more advanced topics with the aid of “chalk talk.”

    source: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9SPN6qaM0DB455-DrWAdpA

    A simple secret to becoming an adept mathematician or even an adept musician, is curiosity, desire, access to high-quality instructional materials, and consistent patient practice.

    Read More
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  30. UnzReader says:
    @Thought Criminal
    There are some caveats to this:

    1. Not all parts of technology are equally complex. In sectors like aerospace, East Asia has lagged behind. Again, the design problems, analytical models for design, and materials engineering, metrology, for military and space equipment (like avionics, sensors, composite materials, optics, electronics) is much more advanced than the rest put together. The USA, Russia, Israel and so on lead in these areas. It is much more complex than consumer gadgets, and it requires larger single obstacles. Single large technology innovations, like entirely new capabilities or layers of offense/defense (hypersonic munitions, radar, acoustics) were and are all made in the West or Russia. Although China might pull ahead here in the future, its strong areas are still different.

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is 'formal' instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the "psychology of invention", of visualization by research mathematicians.)

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions. Also see the work of François Jullien and Roger T. Ames on Chinese philosophy, philology and semiotics, including figures like Wang Bi. China invented a larger range of 'secondary languages' on top of natural language (while the West merely attempted it, e.g. the languages of Wilkins, Dalgarno, Leibniz). The West invented the single most rigorous language (formal mathematics).

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage. Pre-scientific experimentation is still just as relevant as science: heat engines were built before thermodynamics, airplanes before aerodynamics, the 'enigma of the aerofoil', computers before computer science, and so on.

    Wonderful observations…What a bracing breath of fresh air!

    Talk about foolishly short-changing an old and glorious people and civilization using baseless and stupid dichotomies.

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  31. Mathematically adept nerds are the real value creators, while their more extroverted, socially dominant, and verbally glib counterparts transfer that underlying value to themselves as business executives. Engineers are great at creating things for value for others to consume. Lawyers and businessmen on the other hand seem mostly proficient at extracting wealth created by others for themselves.

    A fantastic piece … until the above. Chalk it up to high math/spatial ability and lack of verbal reasoning ability.

    A brilliant formula or tech is of no value (economically) until somebody sees a commercial application. Eg – Xerox PARC had GUI but no idea what to do with it until a high verbal IQ Lebanese American white dude said, “I can change the world with this shit!” Or the Chinese invention of gunpowder which they couldn’t conceive a better purpose for than making pretty colorful lights. We all know what Europeans did with that idea. The obverse correlary is the endlessly Jewish debated idea of Marxism which East Asians forgot to debate and proceeded to exterminate 50,000,000 of their own people. Or the endlessly Jewish debated idea of “diversity” which non-Jewish Europeans have maniacally adopted and appear to be using to genocide themselves.

    Having a brilliant idea, whether mathematically or verbally based, is of no value unless thoroughly debated and then marketed (ie “tech transfer”). THIS is the real lesson HBD can teach us isn’t it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT

    Or the Chinese invention of gunpowder which they couldn’t conceive a better purpose for than making pretty colorful lights.
     
    Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?
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  32. Dwright says:

    Still doesn’t explain why asians are such poor drivers. Over analytical?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    Asians born or raised in America are just fine. It’s the immigrants from many countries not just Asians that are the problem.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Being human flesh clones, our thinking has to be outsourced to from a nearby mothership and it takes a few seconds for reflexive decisions to be made as increasing junk lowers signal integrity from the near-earth orbit.
    , @Frank the Prof

    "doesn’t explain why asians are such poor drivers"
     
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-28/sato-holds-off-helio-to-give-andretti-another-indy-500-win
    , @FKA Max

    I suspect it could have to do with myopia. But I think they don’t necessarily cause more accidents. So, I guess, bad but relatively safe drivers?:
    [...]
    ETHNICITY PLAYS ROLE IN VISION PROBLEMS, RESEARCH SUGGESTS

    In this study, 18.5 percent of the Asian children were nearsighted — thats more than four times the number of nearsighted white children (4.4 percent); three times the number of [near]sighted African American children (6.6 percent); and one-and-a-half times the number of nearsighted Hispanic children (13.2 percent.)
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/kat-chow-on-npr-andrew-sullivans-model-minority-myth-ignores-poverty-of-bhutanese-americans/#comment-1842990

    Relationship between night myopia and night-time motor vehicle accidents

    There was no statistically significant difference between these drivers and the rest of the group in the results of the visual complaints questionnaire, or in the number of accidents occurring during the day. However, drivers with a myopic shift >0.75 D were involved in more accidents at night than the rest of the group (p¼ 0.044).
    Conclusions:
    In this study population, drivers with night myopia of >0.75 D were more likely to be involved in night-time accidents. This may imply that selected groups of drivers should be examined for night myopia.
    - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0420.2006.00875.x/pdf

    Vision and Driving

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2975746/

    Many studies have converged in indicating that visual acuity is, at best, very weakly linked to driver safety (i.e., collision involvement) and thus is a poor screening test for identifying drivers who are at-risk for future crash involvement. In contrast, it is clear that visual acuity is related to certain aspects of driving performance (e.g., road sign recognition).

    Study finds causes of high rate of myopia among Asian school-leavers

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAiMkT4vn9E

    A new study has found that up to 90 per cent of school-leavers in Asia's major cities are suffering from myopia, or short-sightedness. Of these affected, scientists said that 10 to 20 per cent had a condition called high myopia, which can lead to blindness. The study, published in The Lancet medical journal, linked the eye damage with the long hours spent by Asian students studying as well as the lack of outdoor light.


    Hasidim believe that casual time outdoors exposes them to the temptations of the streets, not the least of which are skimpily dressed New Yorkers, said Alexander Rapaport, a Hasid who runs the Masbia soup kitchens in Brooklyn and Queens.

    – http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/hasidic-jews-in-heavy-dress-bear-up-in-summer.html

    The influence of study habits on myopia in Jewish teenagers.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8254449 Zylbermann et al. (1993)

    We found a statistically significant higher prevalence and degree of myopia in a group of 193 Orthodox Jewish male students who differed from the rest in their study habits.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jpetras/judeo-centrism-myths-and-mania/#comment-1849454

    So why are we such crashingly bad drivers?


    Of course, criticising female drivers – both anecdotally and scientifically – is nothing new. Countless pieces of research testify to the fact that when it comes to factors such as navigation and spatial awareness, we are less capable than men.

    But none of these studies have yet to factor in a variable that takes bad female driving to another level entirely: being Jewish. This piece of research is all mine – though I admit empirical evidence is purely anecdotal. But believe me, it's enough.
     

    - https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/so-why-are-we-such-crashingly-bad-drivers-1.65494

    Israel: Welcome to the land of criminals and bad drivers


    The US underpins Israel’s unenviable record of traffic accidents by warning – accurately - that "aggressive driving is commonplace and that many drivers fail to maintain safe following distances or signal before changing lanes…" Australia warns that residents “may stone your car” if you drive it into ultra-orthodox Jewish neighbourhoods during the Sabbath.
     
    - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-welcome-to-the-land-of-criminals-and-bad-drivers-8101165.html
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  33. @Bruce
    I work for the biggest defense company. East Asians are present but most of the engineers including the top engineers are white males. Could be the need for a security clearance but that shouldn’t be a problem for Asian Americans.

    Could be the need for a security clearance but that shouldn’t be a problem for Asian Americans.

    Isn’t this self-contradictory? The fact that you wrote “Asian Americans” only underscores that human tribalism is VERY real and has real world impacts which would include security clearances.

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  34. @Patrick82
    I've read that the Chinese turned away from mathematics sometime during the Ming dynasty and that by the 19th century, most learned Chinese were not well versed in the discipline. Many mandarin officials who questioned reformers during the "Self-Strengthening Movement" in the 1860s (in the aftermath of the Opium wars) were skeptical of "Western science", which by this time of course had surpassed China in all fields save perhaps medicine. Words like "trickery" and "magic" were frequently used by more orthodox literati-scholars whenever the "strange techniques of the barbarians" were discussed.

    It seems to me that the best and brightest in China at that time (if indeed the scholar-officials can be described in those terms) were dedicated to endeavors that required more verbal ability...the eight-legged essays, poetry, history and philosophy.

    I don't doubt the author's conclusions, just wanted to throw this out here.

    It seems to me that the best and brightest in China at that time (if indeed the scholar-officials can be described in those terms) were dedicated to endeavors that required more verbal ability…the eight-legged essays, poetry, history and philosophy.

    Yes, I wondered about this, too. And so I was considering whether it is explained by the differences between alphabetically-written languages and those employing characters. (This is entire field of investigation within the discipline of western Classics (in particular, Greek studies).) My thinking was running along the lines of: written Chinese is more oriented toward conceptual understanding and less toward verbal nuance, detailed explanations. I think Chinese grammar has this tendency in addition to the written characters, although I’m really guessing as I don’t speak Chinese.

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  35. JSM says:
    @Dr. Doom
    Steve Sailer is a Math Whiz but his occidental views are too far away from the Pacific Rim to get into the details of it. I happen to have had a Youth in Asia and then become immersed in American Culture. I saw both sides and its not inscrutable to me. In the Far East, its not a Tiger Mom, but a serious pressure cooker culture for young males to succeed. They expect you to be the best since Family comes first. Here in the West, its a laid back and lackadaisical attitude. They actually drugged me with Ritalin for pointing out mistakes the low paid schoolmarms made on the chalkboard.
    Men in America are told to slack off. That guy Strickland in Back to the Future is ACTUALLY A VILLAIN for wanting Marty McFly to get to school on time. This joke must fly over the heads of the Far Eastern Audience. Far Eastern kids go to testing coaches. They drill constantly. American men are slacking off, sleeping around and being drugged and STILL DOING WELL ON THESE TESTS.

    DO not underestimate the Genetic Potential of the White Man. They are living in unfavorable conditions and being drugged for not slacking off. The Far Eastern kids are stressing out, getting tutors and even cheating, but not doing that far better than White Men that are being fed anti-academic propaganda and being induced to not be responsible.

    However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science

    Explain to me… China has had 5000 years of civilization. How come it was White Guys in Europe that had to invent and discover all the physics, chemistry, engineering and math that Yan is now telling us how amazing China’s rise in these fields is?

    Yan will say, “Oh! White man, he just picked all the low-hanging fruit. It’s the Asians who are now doing all the hard work.”

    So, why WAS it that the White man did the low-fruit-picking? China’s been a civilization for 5000 years. Why did THEY not pick that easy fruit? Huh? Where ya been for the last 5 millenia, Superior Asian Man? Huh?

    Read More
    • Replies: @jim jones
    We should have a list of all the things China failed to invent:

    Internal combustion engine
    The Transistor
    Antibiotics
    The Calculus
    The jet engine
    Polymers
    Nuclear fission and fusion
    Nitrogen fertilizers
    Vaccines
    Television
    Radio
    , @myself
    There is zero doubt in anyone's mind that the last 500 years have belonged to the West.

    Asians themselves say this very thing. It's their acceptance of this fact, instead of bitching and moaning, that's allowed them to develop.

    But we shouldn't get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn't dominate the last 5,000 years.

    And our current dominance is . . . looking fragile.
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  36. @Dr. Doom
    Steve Sailer is a Math Whiz but his occidental views are too far away from the Pacific Rim to get into the details of it. I happen to have had a Youth in Asia and then become immersed in American Culture. I saw both sides and its not inscrutable to me. In the Far East, its not a Tiger Mom, but a serious pressure cooker culture for young males to succeed. They expect you to be the best since Family comes first. Here in the West, its a laid back and lackadaisical attitude. They actually drugged me with Ritalin for pointing out mistakes the low paid schoolmarms made on the chalkboard.
    Men in America are told to slack off. That guy Strickland in Back to the Future is ACTUALLY A VILLAIN for wanting Marty McFly to get to school on time. This joke must fly over the heads of the Far Eastern Audience. Far Eastern kids go to testing coaches. They drill constantly. American men are slacking off, sleeping around and being drugged and STILL DOING WELL ON THESE TESTS.

    DO not underestimate the Genetic Potential of the White Man. They are living in unfavorable conditions and being drugged for not slacking off. The Far Eastern kids are stressing out, getting tutors and even cheating, but not doing that far better than White Men that are being fed anti-academic propaganda and being induced to not be responsible.

    Your comment and some others is a forest/trees issue I think and I see it also in the original article. It appears that white people (and South Asians ie Subcontinental Indians) have a higher percentage at the extreme fringes than do East Asians who cluster (like Sub-Saharan Africans and women) closer to their mean. This is highly relevant when we look at exceptionalism no? In gross numbers, East Asian populations will yield more very good math/science practitioners. At the most extreme levels, per capita, they have fewer, but here gross population numbers come to the fore so they’re likely to produce overall more geniuses as well except perhaps at the level of Fields Medalists or history changing physicists.

    Then there’s the issue of herd mentality which seems strongest among whites and East Asians. Having adopted, largely without the endless debating of the originators (Jews), the idea of anti-exceptionalism, we suppress exceptionalism while the East Asians are somewhat less on board despite (or perhaps because) having exterminated 50,000,000 of their own by blindly following such a reprehensible idea without the incessant debates that have largely prevented Jews from wholesale adoption themselves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @myself
    There may very well be something to this concept of closer East Asian IQ clustering than that of Whites and Indians, but I've never yet seen or encountered a proper study saying so.

    In contrast, the Asian general IQ and math/verbal split have been noted for some time by researchers, none of whom have yet mentioned an IQ clustering phenomenon.

    Perhaps the lesser Asian creativity is not down to IQ genetics, but the cultural paradigm of conformity instead?
    , @denk

    'we suppress exceptionalism'
     
    buahahahahha

    Honey,
    Dont make my toe laugh !

    FUKUS defines exceptionalism,

    Never heard of 'fukus exceptionalism' eh
    care to do a search ?

    fukus mantra
    'Do as I say, not what I do'

    'Murdering 50,000,000 of their own people? '
     
    Citation ?

    'they played games and smoked opium'
     
    You feel so proud of that part of your history when you
    genocided half of the chinaman at gun point eh,
    such a charming fella !

    hehhehe
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  37. @Thought Criminal
    There are some caveats to this:

    1. Not all parts of technology are equally complex. In sectors like aerospace, East Asia has lagged behind. Again, the design problems, analytical models for design, and materials engineering, metrology, for military and space equipment (like avionics, sensors, composite materials, optics, electronics) is much more advanced than the rest put together. The USA, Russia, Israel and so on lead in these areas. It is much more complex than consumer gadgets, and it requires larger single obstacles. Single large technology innovations, like entirely new capabilities or layers of offense/defense (hypersonic munitions, radar, acoustics) were and are all made in the West or Russia. Although China might pull ahead here in the future, its strong areas are still different.

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is 'formal' instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the "psychology of invention", of visualization by research mathematicians.)

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions. Also see the work of François Jullien and Roger T. Ames on Chinese philosophy, philology and semiotics, including figures like Wang Bi. China invented a larger range of 'secondary languages' on top of natural language (while the West merely attempted it, e.g. the languages of Wilkins, Dalgarno, Leibniz). The West invented the single most rigorous language (formal mathematics).

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage. Pre-scientific experimentation is still just as relevant as science: heat engines were built before thermodynamics, airplanes before aerodynamics, the 'enigma of the aerofoil', computers before computer science, and so on.

    Many sound points made there.

    Some examples you raise, however, are not entirely true:

    Current state-of-art semicon technologies inside consumer gadgets like some top smartphones don’t loss a bit in their sophistications to any defence tech. Rather, most high end defence tech are rooted on these very semicon tech.

    Aerospace is a money-devouring-machine. One of the major reasons, if not the most deciding reason, why US/RUSSIA are far ahead in aerospace is due to 50-years-cold war accumulation of IMMENSE military budgets, R&D personnel and their forced hands-on experiences competing for life-or-death dominance , which neither China nor Japan had. Panda read somewhere that China’s entire national budget for aerospace engine research & production, both tech, material & personnel cost, for the period from 1950s to 1980s were like meagerly 3 million dollars equivalent, which was less than the annual salary expenditure of a small US defence lab… If you add up fruits of earlier industrialisation foundation, US/UK/Japan/Germany were at least 100 years ahead of China in so many fields even at the 1980s…

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    • Replies: @JJ
    I agree on the aerospace analysis. Besides aerospace, to produce meaningful results most R&D is essentially a game of burning money plus accumulated experience/data from past trial and error (that also demands real money).The US economy relies heavily on seignoiorage from the dollar hegemony, but as the national debts grow, its previous model of depending on extravagant government funds and grants in R&D development has become difficult to go on. For example, in order to verify some basic data of a certain composite material US labs would conduct thousands of experiments, whereas china could achieve the same result by dozen times.

    Many people imagine high-tech as something hidden in the lab or like alien tech. They simply ignore the fact that those lab techs are meaningful only if they are accessible to people. If smart phones could be made better yet cheaper, i'd say that's tremendous high-tech.
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  38. I didn’t have time to do more than skim right now, but 2 points:

    (1) Re Feynman, the book about his attempted journey to the central Asian nation of Tuva describes Feynman’s attempts to translate Tuvan into English, and his attempts were pretty weak, which seems to support the idea that he had poor verbal ability. Also, his belief that music was fundamentally rhythm seems to indicate that he had “no ear” for aspects of music that most people consider central–those which might be described as the most non-M aspects of music.

    (2) On the other hand, Feynman is famous for his ability to explain complex physics. Is this irrelevant to the M/V divide? This points to a possible problem with Shen’s article (although I haven’t read thoroughly)–the failure to define terms adequately. Is cognitive ability really divisible into M and V parts, and if so, how does that play out in daily life? Isn’t it possible that China just has a huge number of high G people, but that the language barriers and economic demands of present-day life impose restrictions on its verbal expression?

    Ultimately, I am happy to see Yan Shen writing about cognition rather than immigration, as his suggestion that money is the measure of a man’s worth to (some abstraction called) the United States remains disgusting.

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  39. George says:

    Is spatial, 3D, reasoning still important? At the highest intellectual levels the theory I have heard, but do not understand, is there are many more dimensions than 3. At the lower levels like engineering, CAD can be used as a crutch for many that do not have natural spatial reasoning.

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  40. 1. The West, Russia, Japan, China, all have radically different value systems: the reason why East Asia does not ‘invent’ is because it seeks not to radically invent, but other forms of expansion. Russia, again, has its own value system that led to its heights of literature, high-end engineering, mathematics, and so on.

    The Western world represented explosions: either an explosion at the beginning (Ancient Greece), or an endless explosion: at the top (French, Italian), or explosion from the inward to the outward (German). Quick, virtuosic invention (as in music) is explosion; it is the sudden seizing out, the inward to the outward, domination over a single great moment. Gradual construction, levels of discipline and vision (starting with the Romans, and cumulating in the development of accurate measurement and visual representation in the Italian Renaissance), directs invention and prevents its excesses. German culture ended with Richard Wagner, since he represented such a complete satisfaction of the inward exploding completely and totally, that there was nothing left to express: the full journey of body, mind and spirit ended here. (The only other explosive civilization of the past was Ancient India.)

    Russia (and also I think Hungary) represents turbulent eddies, vortices, psychological rather than philosophical, mentally unclear but clean in substance, the inward world that imitates and reflects the outward. It is the endless development and recovery from inner confusion. (Hence, the weakness of Russian philosophy was the strength of the Russian novel.) This is not the ‘explosion’ from the inward to the outward. It does not explode, it ‘gathers’ and mobilizes all aspects. The Russian expansion is the highest and deepest domination that ‘makes up for’ an inward disorder or blockage in a few crucial regions, makes up for the arctic squalor of the surroundings. (Hence, the Soviet style in mathematics and theoretical physics, without a single wasted particle of thought.) The obstacles are inward, not outward.

    East Asia represents not invention (the explosion), nor the endless “brewing” of Russia, but the power of organic breadth of expansion (while invention is only one type of expansion, but the fastest). East Asia has many uniquely deep forms of construction (the ‘dialectical’ structuring in its painting, literature, strategy), while the West has two uniquely deep forms of architectonic (pure mathematics, classical music composition). Unlike what Oswald Spengler said, there was never any clear, or non-muddled ‘inward consciousness’ of China or Japan, since the real basic principles were a matter of conceptual formation: everything — every conception, rule, goal, distinction, and inward-directedness — was a compromise or ‘moderated point’ between opposites (hence the contradictoriness of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism, one of them backward-looking even at an early point, one of them ‘moderated’ between inwardness and outwardness, one of them extreme — and each of them dealing with a different domain of questions). Another way to see this is that China never reached full civilization and satisfaction, nor had any ‘hardening’ to backward-looking satisfaction, or even any form of complete civilization: it combined or perpetually mixed this with its opposite: this is obvious at the levels of basic institutional disorder at each period (with violence ‘brewing’ beneath the surface), and the huge expansion in epic literature and strategic thinking that took place at later periods (say the Three Kingdoms). The same applies to Japan: it achieved enormous expansions, such as epic Samurai literature (The Tale of the Heike). It represents the wide expansion of an organism, that remains powerful at every single period, rather than completely revolutionary during a single one.

    Rather, the Chinese and Japanese conception of civilization is not a perfected state, but an arrangement that works in the long term (which must be moderated, not perfected). The Western revolutions in fundamental science were dependent on a stage in history, much like the advances in Ancient India (that constructed entire notations and subject matter from scratch). It is not guaranteed to be relevant beyond it. East Asian advances (in pre-scientific discovery and pure engineering) are relevant in every single stage, but not absolutely dominant over any single one. But after a certain stage in history (say, after fundamental physics is mostly clarified and there are only advances in condensed matter, complex systems and such), there is good evidence that both the Russian and East Asian modes will be dominant over the Western one.

    2. The two (China and Japan) never were antagonists. Japan helped China at a systemic level; competent Chinese leadership were trained in Japan (like Chiang Kai-Shek, Zhou En-lai), and without Japan there would have been no Chinese attempt at modernization. Japanese conquest of Manchuria was necessary to halting Russian imperial advances towards China. A Japanese conquest of China would subtract nothing from the culture but simply add additional elements (compare this to the Maoists, who tried to abolish Kanji). Japanese ‘massacres’ were balanced by the fact that they saved elite Chinese cultural figures like Lu Xun from nationalist White Terror. The technology transfer that went from Japan to China from the 1970s-90s was the largest transfer of production know-how in all of human history, and covered extreme high-end production technology that the USA tried to avoid access to (this is detailed by Eamonn Fingleton, in his book). The point is, without Japan, China would be nowhere today: and vice versa (Japan’s industrialization of Manchuria provided the model for its post-war economic system). E. Asian countries have ambiguous — not absolutely negative or positive — relations with each other. The West tends to misunderstand this because it simply stops at observing a certain practice without looking at different aspects of it. E.g., the same Chinese people who complain about Japan also buy Japanese products and entertainment, visit Japan as tourists, and Chinese students still seek Japan as the top destination.

    This is based on the basic principles. Chinese and Japanese culture (including its philosophy and basic way of forming conceptions) is based on the principle of moderation: every belief, rule, law, goal, system is not followed absolutely but with exceptions, or with contradictory aspects. The same goes for Japan and other E. Asian countries: if you understand their philosophy and cultural values, “moderation” is something prior to the idea of civilization itself. That is, China was never completely civilized in its history (but mixed civilization, barbarism, decadence). The West fully rises and declines; China never had any comparable golden ages (only silver ages). China does not support full freedom or totalitarianism, but some compromise in the middle (escaping certain limitations of both extremes, like internet restrictions today are easily evaded). There is little absolute friendship or opening oneself up in China (hence the dislike for dogs). China is never fully educated, but never completely ‘dark’ (there is a ‘spirit’ of education). China was never absolutely safe in any part of its history, but it avoided both extremes. China is never absolutely racialist; it referred to barbarians as inferiors, but it also encouraged racial mixing with barbarians throughout its history, and the concept of ‘Chinese’ is racially ambiguous (not as universal as ‘Roman’, but not strictly an ethnic group either). There is a sharp moderation between the public and the private views, in which contradictions are cultivated. China never had absolute civic spirit, but its periods of disunity lasted shorter than in the West (where an empire permanently split into smaller warring countries). Guerilla warfare is China’s specialty, and it is literally ‘intermediate’ between individual criminality, and organized, civic warfare. That is, China is not any less criminal than the West, but it lacks any features of blunt, random violence as in the West, or purely gratuitous violence or torture. None of this is guaranteed to be absolutely superior or inferior; it actually depends on which stage of history one is talking about.

    (It is exactly by working with moderated properties, like Yin and Yang not being absolutely exclusive, that makes qualities more elaborate and structured, with one thing converting to its opposite if pushed enough; e.g., by attempting to be moderate in every area, you push the extremes to a few crucial ones — like the vast scale of literary production, and overall longevity. Also, there is no ‘induction’ from a particular to a general since every particular fact is actually fully ‘general’; every particular belief or seemingly simple distinction, is structured by contradictory aspects.)

    This has, it must be admitted, certain long-term advantages: the fact that China is never absolutely civilized (but is partly barbarous, and partly decadent) prevents it from declining to extreme decadence, like what is happening with European birthrates. The fact that they are centralized yet highly corrupt has long-term advantages, since China can adopt many ‘dangerous’ technologies that would not be possible in more rigid societies (like a long-term space program, human genetic engineering). China was never as militarily powerful as the Roman Empire or Russia or Germany was at its height, but never as weak as they were in their weak periods either: this again makes for longevity (of military power; that is, China’s guerilla warfare capabilities were always good and they were able to ‘gradually’ push out invaders).

    But then ‘longevity’ itself is moderated: China is slightly more continuous (in terms of a continued stream of major and highly influential literary production) than India, Persia or Europe, and in the form of institutions, and in specific intellectual ‘traditions’ that depend on deep linguistic construction, but it is not quite as continuous as Japan. It is in many aspects (like presevation of architecture) not as continuous as Europe. Not only is longevity moderated, but also the attitude towards longevity is moderated: China boasts about being ancient, but destroys actual direct artifacts of the past, and it also adopts foreign ideas, technology, and so on.

    It is also the basic principle of both Chinese and Japanese philosophy. Yukio Mishima, say, was a good example of a Japanese ‘Zen’ figure (and he is still so regarded in Japan itself); by purging himself of Chinese influence, he becomes a figure characteristic of China itself (the ‘revolutionary ideologists’ at the end of each dynastic period, including Lu Xun in the 20th century) rather than Japan. By supporting his own imaginary Japan, he renders himself helpless against the real, actual Japan in the flesh. By being a Western-style individualist and Nietzschean egotist (towards positive affirmation), he commits suicide in the end (nihilism), which is the extreme ‘emptiness’ of the self. By rejecting Buddhism, he becomes a very ‘Zen’ figure. By projecting a false image of the Japanese as inward individualists, he paralyzes the Western understanding of Japan, and so destroys the West and individualism.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    Very intelligent and interesting comment, which strikes me as broadly true.

    The West doesn't do moderation - extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It's an unstable system.

    The Middle Ages were more of a moderate period of the West, but it gradually slipped into extreme pessimism by the 14th century, and was then replaced by extreme earthly optimism. The late 19th century saw despair and apathy growing as all that conquest and technological brilliance failed to result in "redemption", and life in this world remained as thorny and unsatisaying as ever.

    It will be interesting to see if Asia has really been transformed from within in a Western direction - and is now in a "Faustian" phase - or if it's a superficial graft and will be shed like a false skin once conditions are more propitious.

    So far, the nature of Asian catching up with the West has not been Faustian - no brilliant explosions - but a moderate level of steadily accumulating performance that, combined with the post-Faustian apathy of the West, has shifted the center of gravity towards Asia.

    But it's too early to tell.

    If the Japanese trajectory is a template for what we can except of an Asia trying to match and surpass the West, then we can except China to undergo a brief effloresence of performance followed by a return to more traditional cultural patterns that moderate disparate elements.

    And it will be interesting to see if the Faustian West has finaly dedtroyed itself or will learn moderation at long last.
    , @JJ
    I remember reading a comment here suggesting that the Christian values have played an important role in pushing the western society forward by encouraging people to seek new things. In contrast, there is a saying in China that living in the moment 活在当下, and i think china would be happily to do so had it not for the purpose of catching up and competing with the west after the opium war. If we think about it, are we really that much happier than our ancestors living in the past with no TVs, smartphones, etc? Modern technologies are basically some fancy toys that divert our attention from something to another. So far we haven't faced a nuclear holocaust that causes the collapse of civilization, but the relentless urge to be unique, to invent something new, may well lead to the demise of human race. For one thing, AI is not that far away to replace humans.
    , @myself
    I would agree.

    At the very core of the Chinese view of the cosmos, if you drill down deep enough, is the concept that ANY idea, system, belief, philosophy, or set of actions, if pushed TOO FAR, will inevitably give rise to an opposing principle which will force it back into harmony with the larger universe. Man has agency, but the Universe ("Reality" if you will) is the ultimate arbiter. One does not go against Reality.

    In this view, though Man's nature is to have agency, have will and to strive, still the final result is not entirely his to determine, only partially so. His actions are his own, the outcome may not be - and this is no cause for guilt or shame. "No blame if one acts from righteousness", as put in the YiJing.

    I like your depiction of Chinese civilization - always on the SPECTRUM of barbarism/high civilization/decadence - a spectrum, NEVER an end-point!

    For to reach ascension, "apotheosis" is to stagnate, and therefore to go into an oblivion from which nothing, no one, no race, people or civilization can recover! (No civilization indeed has ever recovered from its demise - where now are Memphis, Thebes, Mohenjo-Daro, Athens, Rome or Byzantium?)

    Never descending into hell (and oblivion), nor ever ascending to heaven (and oblivion), instead seeing the universe as infinite and eternal, and mortal man's journey within it as infinite and eternal as well.

    That is the core idea of Chinese civilization, and it perhaps pre-dates all other schools of thought in China.

    Now, is this a good or even useful way of being? Hell if I know.
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  41. jim jones says:
    @JSM

    However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science

     

    Explain to me... China has had 5000 years of civilization. How come it was White Guys in Europe that had to invent and discover all the physics, chemistry, engineering and math that Yan is now telling us how amazing China's rise in these fields is?

    Yan will say, "Oh! White man, he just picked all the low-hanging fruit. It's the Asians who are now doing all the hard work."

    So, why WAS it that the White man did the low-fruit-picking? China's been a civilization for 5000 years. Why did THEY not pick that easy fruit? Huh? Where ya been for the last 5 millenia, Superior Asian Man? Huh?

    We should have a list of all the things China failed to invent:

    Internal combustion engine
    The Transistor
    Antibiotics
    The Calculus
    The jet engine
    Polymers
    Nuclear fission and fusion
    Nitrogen fertilizers
    Vaccines
    Television
    Radio

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    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    functional condoms ..
    , @bjondo
    What invented and what found?
    , @Anon
    Yeh, you forget all the best war machines for mass killing & destruction of innocents. Moderate good Terrorists..false flags 911, presstitute fake news propaganda machines, financial scam,....Monsanto's herbicide & GMO toxic food, Orange agent, Aids, .... What a wonder endless list of invention for mankind. Still got a nuclear fission & fusion bombs for fireworks to go with, so proud for the civilization improvements.
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  42. My own opinion on this is that East Asian ‘visuo-spatial’ intelligence led to deeper contributions to pure literature (which lacked that ingredient), while Western verbal intelligence (for alphabetic, not logographic languages) stimulated the development of mathematics (say, the idea of mathematical proof derived from verbal dialectic, like the ‘argument from contradiction’). That is, mathematics at the higher levels actually requires abilities other than mathematical; and literature at the higher levels benefits from the additional level of visual content that Kanji provides (that facilitates poetry).

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  43. Joe Hide says:

    To Ya Shen,,
    Great material but too long. You might try presenting such outstanding thoughts in 3 articles instead of 1.
    Still, it is at least 3.5 standard deviations to the right of average on the standard bell curve for I.Q writings…HA!
    Please continue to write for we verbally cognitively advanced & skewed reader’s more!

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  44. AaronB says:

    I was going to analyze this objectively – so many built-in assumptions and historical errors! – but then I realized the purpose of a mythology isn’t to represent objective fact, but to provide inspiration, encouragement, and most importantly – self-validation.

    Whats more -like all myths, this one expresses a deeper, multi-level truth about the current alignment of races and countries, and “all” historical moments try and validate themselves as eternal and inevitable.

    Asians have tried really hard to prove themselves and catch up with the superior power of the West by abandoning their traditional literary culture and channeling all their energies into engineering and technology – the source of the West’s unstoppable power. A major sacrifice.

    And the West really has lost its will to power and slacked off when it comes to the “power” disciplines.

    This new historical moment needs a new myth to validate itself, just as the 19th century needed the myth of the “white man’s burden”, and the Jewish ascendancy needed the myth of “meritocracy” – both concealed fact even as they revealed true aspects of the historical situation they were meant to describe.

    And I say – let the Asians have it. They deserve it. They have worked really hard to “prove” themselves and it has borne fruit.

    What Asians need most is to become reconciled with themselves and the world, and the bitterness and the resentment so many Asians feel today will only dissolve in time when they have satisfied themselves they are not inferior to the West – which they are not!

    But they need to satisfy themselves on this score. They have sacrificed much joy in life towards this end.

    What’s more, it seems increasingly clear to me that whites are not prepared to make the sacrifices needed to “prove” themselves but are entering a different phase.

    This will be the Asian century – let’s all celebrate it and find curiosity in what the Asian genius will produce in a new and interesting way. I’m very curious myself.

    We are a decade or two away from the end of the “catch up” phase and will soon be entering the Asian century phase.

    In an inevitable historical reversal, the West can now enter a relaxed phase where it cultivates the “arts of life”, as Asians once did, under a new organization that will emerge at the end of the current chaos that is the natural result of the end of the will to power phase, with its initual bewildering disorganization.

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  45. Writing an article assuming anyone knows what HBD is, not a sign of a high IQ.
    Who can enlighten me ?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Sure.

    Segregation was on display in London over the past two weeks--which, surprisingly, should spark no concerns and may even help educate us all about the wonders of human biodiversity. Let me explain.

    Led by 100-meter world record holder Usain Bolt, Jamaican men swept the sprinting events at the London Olympics. It was a stunning feat for the small Caribbean nation. But as part of a broader trend, it’s hardly surprising. Runners of West African descent are the fastest humans on earth....

    ...This is population genetics 101. Bolt and his Jamaican teammates are members of a tiny slice of the world population—elite athletes who trace their ancestry to western and central Africa—whose body types and physiology have been uniquely shaped by thousands of years of evolution to run fast.

    Genetically linked, highly heritable characteristics such as skeletal structure, the distribution of muscle fiber types (for example, sprinters have more natural fast twitch fibers, while distance runners are naturally endowed with more of the slow twitch variety), reflex capabilities, metabolic efficiency and lung capacity are not evenly distributed among populations. Do we yet know the specific genes that contribute to on the field success? No, but that’s not an argument against the powerful role of genetics in sports.

     

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2012/08/12/the-dna-olympics-jamaicans-win-sprinting-genetic-lottery-and-why-we-should-all-care/2/#49d0fa283fbe


    The brain is significantly, vastly more complex than muscle fiber, but there's no reason to believe that it is completely immune to selectional pressures(or even pure happenstance). A more active amygdala will elicit certain behaviors, a more active prefrontal cortex will elicit others, and even as extraneous chemicals that pass the blood-brain barrier such as alcohol will affect cognition and behavior, it stands to reason that internally created chemicals will also affect behavior(as well as the types of neurons, receptors, etc.) We see both in sexual dimorphism of the brain, with the effects of testosterone on the brain both in its "carving" effects of reducing the connectivity of the corpus corpus callosum and presumably some effect that leads to larger hippocampi; the direct effect of testosterone injected in women also increases sense of competition, sexual interest and spatial intelligence. Akin to software, the chemical has an effect but the chemical also affects the hardware of the brain.

    This, of course, also makes me find IQ to be a rather dubious measure at times given the sheer complexity of how the brain works and what makes up cognition. But I can accept it as a casual, catch-all term with some limited functional utility.
    , @Alden
    It means Human Bio Diversity.

    For a long time liberals have claimed that all races and ethnicities are the same despite obvious differences in size, color, bone structure.

    Realists call the physical biological differences Human Bio Diversity it’s a way to counteract the liberal propaganda that the only reason Africans and other races haven’t advanced is because of colonialism and evil White people

    Liberals call HBD racism, eugenics etc

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  46. @jim jones
    We should have a list of all the things China failed to invent:

    Internal combustion engine
    The Transistor
    Antibiotics
    The Calculus
    The jet engine
    Polymers
    Nuclear fission and fusion
    Nitrogen fertilizers
    Vaccines
    Television
    Radio

    functional condoms ..

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  47. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Johnny Smoggins
    Is this the Yan Shen?

    The "I hate all White guys because they steal all the best looking Asian girls" Yan Shen?

    Either way; dull, pedantic article. Learn to edit. There's much to be said for brevity.

    Isn’t the reverse true? Vox Day acknowledges as much.

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/05/mailvox-why-do-white-women-choose-black.html

    3. Low rank white women tend to be overvalued by black men. The woman who can attract only white 3s is often able to attract black 7s. I know several black male-white female couples where the black man is significantly more attractive than the white woman. This phenomenon is also often seen in white male-Asian female couples. When a woman has the option to increase her sex rank simply by expanding the pool of acceptable men, it should come as no surprise that many elect to do so.

    Anyone living somewhere with a large Asian population learns to recognize the hate-fact that Asian women in these relationships generally range from ugly to remarkably ugly. Miscegenation rarely has aesthetic appeal.

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    • Replies: @Johnny Smoggins
    "Anyone living somewhere with a large Asian population learns to recognize the hate-fact that Asian women in these relationships generally range from ugly to remarkably ugly"


    I guess you have to tell yourself that to feel better but in fact the ugly, dorky Asian girls end up with ugly, dorky Asian guys. The hot Asian girls prefer White men.

    Agree with regard to blacks though. Only the lowest, most desperate white women go dark.

    I do see, at least where I live, quality White women with Asian guys and that's no problem.
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  48. AaronB says:
    @Thought Criminal
    1. The West, Russia, Japan, China, all have radically different value systems: the reason why East Asia does not ‘invent’ is because it seeks not to radically invent, but other forms of expansion. Russia, again, has its own value system that led to its heights of literature, high-end engineering, mathematics, and so on.

    The Western world represented explosions: either an explosion at the beginning (Ancient Greece), or an endless explosion: at the top (French, Italian), or explosion from the inward to the outward (German). Quick, virtuosic invention (as in music) is explosion; it is the sudden seizing out, the inward to the outward, domination over a single great moment. Gradual construction, levels of discipline and vision (starting with the Romans, and cumulating in the development of accurate measurement and visual representation in the Italian Renaissance), directs invention and prevents its excesses. German culture ended with Richard Wagner, since he represented such a complete satisfaction of the inward exploding completely and totally, that there was nothing left to express: the full journey of body, mind and spirit ended here. (The only other explosive civilization of the past was Ancient India.)

    Russia (and also I think Hungary) represents turbulent eddies, vortices, psychological rather than philosophical, mentally unclear but clean in substance, the inward world that imitates and reflects the outward. It is the endless development and recovery from inner confusion. (Hence, the weakness of Russian philosophy was the strength of the Russian novel.) This is not the ‘explosion’ from the inward to the outward. It does not explode, it ‘gathers’ and mobilizes all aspects. The Russian expansion is the highest and deepest domination that ‘makes up for’ an inward disorder or blockage in a few crucial regions, makes up for the arctic squalor of the surroundings. (Hence, the Soviet style in mathematics and theoretical physics, without a single wasted particle of thought.) The obstacles are inward, not outward.

    East Asia represents not invention (the explosion), nor the endless “brewing” of Russia, but the power of organic breadth of expansion (while invention is only one type of expansion, but the fastest). East Asia has many uniquely deep forms of construction (the 'dialectical' structuring in its painting, literature, strategy), while the West has two uniquely deep forms of architectonic (pure mathematics, classical music composition). Unlike what Oswald Spengler said, there was never any clear, or non-muddled ‘inward consciousness’ of China or Japan, since the real basic principles were a matter of conceptual formation: everything — every conception, rule, goal, distinction, and inward-directedness — was a compromise or ‘moderated point’ between opposites (hence the contradictoriness of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism, one of them backward-looking even at an early point, one of them ‘moderated’ between inwardness and outwardness, one of them extreme — and each of them dealing with a different domain of questions). Another way to see this is that China never reached full civilization and satisfaction, nor had any ‘hardening’ to backward-looking satisfaction, or even any form of complete civilization: it combined or perpetually mixed this with its opposite: this is obvious at the levels of basic institutional disorder at each period (with violence ‘brewing’ beneath the surface), and the huge expansion in epic literature and strategic thinking that took place at later periods (say the Three Kingdoms). The same applies to Japan: it achieved enormous expansions, such as epic Samurai literature (The Tale of the Heike). It represents the wide expansion of an organism, that remains powerful at every single period, rather than completely revolutionary during a single one.

    Rather, the Chinese and Japanese conception of civilization is not a perfected state, but an arrangement that works in the long term (which must be moderated, not perfected). The Western revolutions in fundamental science were dependent on a stage in history, much like the advances in Ancient India (that constructed entire notations and subject matter from scratch). It is not guaranteed to be relevant beyond it. East Asian advances (in pre-scientific discovery and pure engineering) are relevant in every single stage, but not absolutely dominant over any single one. But after a certain stage in history (say, after fundamental physics is mostly clarified and there are only advances in condensed matter, complex systems and such), there is good evidence that both the Russian and East Asian modes will be dominant over the Western one.


    2. The two (China and Japan) never were antagonists. Japan helped China at a systemic level; competent Chinese leadership were trained in Japan (like Chiang Kai-Shek, Zhou En-lai), and without Japan there would have been no Chinese attempt at modernization. Japanese conquest of Manchuria was necessary to halting Russian imperial advances towards China. A Japanese conquest of China would subtract nothing from the culture but simply add additional elements (compare this to the Maoists, who tried to abolish Kanji). Japanese ‘massacres’ were balanced by the fact that they saved elite Chinese cultural figures like Lu Xun from nationalist White Terror. The technology transfer that went from Japan to China from the 1970s-90s was the largest transfer of production know-how in all of human history, and covered extreme high-end production technology that the USA tried to avoid access to (this is detailed by Eamonn Fingleton, in his book). The point is, without Japan, China would be nowhere today: and vice versa (Japan’s industrialization of Manchuria provided the model for its post-war economic system). E. Asian countries have ambiguous — not absolutely negative or positive — relations with each other. The West tends to misunderstand this because it simply stops at observing a certain practice without looking at different aspects of it. E.g., the same Chinese people who complain about Japan also buy Japanese products and entertainment, visit Japan as tourists, and Chinese students still seek Japan as the top destination.

    This is based on the basic principles. Chinese and Japanese culture (including its philosophy and basic way of forming conceptions) is based on the principle of moderation: every belief, rule, law, goal, system is not followed absolutely but with exceptions, or with contradictory aspects. The same goes for Japan and other E. Asian countries: if you understand their philosophy and cultural values, “moderation” is something prior to the idea of civilization itself. That is, China was never completely civilized in its history (but mixed civilization, barbarism, decadence). The West fully rises and declines; China never had any comparable golden ages (only silver ages). China does not support full freedom or totalitarianism, but some compromise in the middle (escaping certain limitations of both extremes, like internet restrictions today are easily evaded). There is little absolute friendship or opening oneself up in China (hence the dislike for dogs). China is never fully educated, but never completely ‘dark’ (there is a ‘spirit’ of education). China was never absolutely safe in any part of its history, but it avoided both extremes. China is never absolutely racialist; it referred to barbarians as inferiors, but it also encouraged racial mixing with barbarians throughout its history, and the concept of ‘Chinese’ is racially ambiguous (not as universal as ‘Roman’, but not strictly an ethnic group either). There is a sharp moderation between the public and the private views, in which contradictions are cultivated. China never had absolute civic spirit, but its periods of disunity lasted shorter than in the West (where an empire permanently split into smaller warring countries). Guerilla warfare is China’s specialty, and it is literally ‘intermediate’ between individual criminality, and organized, civic warfare. That is, China is not any less criminal than the West, but it lacks any features of blunt, random violence as in the West, or purely gratuitous violence or torture. None of this is guaranteed to be absolutely superior or inferior; it actually depends on which stage of history one is talking about.

    (It is exactly by working with moderated properties, like Yin and Yang not being absolutely exclusive, that makes qualities more elaborate and structured, with one thing converting to its opposite if pushed enough; e.g., by attempting to be moderate in every area, you push the extremes to a few crucial ones — like the vast scale of literary production, and overall longevity. Also, there is no ‘induction’ from a particular to a general since every particular fact is actually fully ‘general’; every particular belief or seemingly simple distinction, is structured by contradictory aspects.)

    This has, it must be admitted, certain long-term advantages: the fact that China is never absolutely civilized (but is partly barbarous, and partly decadent) prevents it from declining to extreme decadence, like what is happening with European birthrates. The fact that they are centralized yet highly corrupt has long-term advantages, since China can adopt many ‘dangerous’ technologies that would not be possible in more rigid societies (like a long-term space program, human genetic engineering). China was never as militarily powerful as the Roman Empire or Russia or Germany was at its height, but never as weak as they were in their weak periods either: this again makes for longevity (of military power; that is, China’s guerilla warfare capabilities were always good and they were able to ‘gradually’ push out invaders).

    But then ‘longevity’ itself is moderated: China is slightly more continuous (in terms of a continued stream of major and highly influential literary production) than India, Persia or Europe, and in the form of institutions, and in specific intellectual ‘traditions’ that depend on deep linguistic construction, but it is not quite as continuous as Japan. It is in many aspects (like presevation of architecture) not as continuous as Europe. Not only is longevity moderated, but also the attitude towards longevity is moderated: China boasts about being ancient, but destroys actual direct artifacts of the past, and it also adopts foreign ideas, technology, and so on.

    It is also the basic principle of both Chinese and Japanese philosophy. Yukio Mishima, say, was a good example of a Japanese ‘Zen’ figure (and he is still so regarded in Japan itself); by purging himself of Chinese influence, he becomes a figure characteristic of China itself (the ‘revolutionary ideologists’ at the end of each dynastic period, including Lu Xun in the 20th century) rather than Japan. By supporting his own imaginary Japan, he renders himself helpless against the real, actual Japan in the flesh. By being a Western-style individualist and Nietzschean egotist (towards positive affirmation), he commits suicide in the end (nihilism), which is the extreme ‘emptiness’ of the self. By rejecting Buddhism, he becomes a very ‘Zen’ figure. By projecting a false image of the Japanese as inward individualists, he paralyzes the Western understanding of Japan, and so destroys the West and individualism.

    Very intelligent and interesting comment, which strikes me as broadly true.

    The West doesn’t do moderation – extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It’s an unstable system.

    The Middle Ages were more of a moderate period of the West, but it gradually slipped into extreme pessimism by the 14th century, and was then replaced by extreme earthly optimism. The late 19th century saw despair and apathy growing as all that conquest and technological brilliance failed to result in “redemption”, and life in this world remained as thorny and unsatisaying as ever.

    It will be interesting to see if Asia has really been transformed from within in a Western direction – and is now in a “Faustian” phase – or if it’s a superficial graft and will be shed like a false skin once conditions are more propitious.

    So far, the nature of Asian catching up with the West has not been Faustian – no brilliant explosions – but a moderate level of steadily accumulating performance that, combined with the post-Faustian apathy of the West, has shifted the center of gravity towards Asia.

    But it’s too early to tell.

    If the Japanese trajectory is a template for what we can except of an Asia trying to match and surpass the West, then we can except China to undergo a brief effloresence of performance followed by a return to more traditional cultural patterns that moderate disparate elements.

    And it will be interesting to see if the Faustian West has finaly dedtroyed itself or will learn moderation at long last.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh


    The West doesn’t do moderation – extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It’s an unstable system.
     
    Not sure about unstable, but yes. Its notable that the West really does seem to swing between golden and dark ages consistently. Insofar as moderation goes, I highly doubt the Faustian West will be "destroyed" either - restlessness clearly serves a purpose, and like all cycles, it'll probably find its expression in a golden age once again after some generations.
    , @myself
    According to the Chinese traditional view, it's the West and not the Rest that's been more in harmony and more aligned with the flows of the Universe these last 500 years, hence the over-all material and even philosophical and artistic success of the West.

    To take that further, as China gradually regains its harmony and equilibrium with the demands of history (history as outward expression of the eternal cosmic flow - Taoist thought), so it experiences significant advance.

    The purported malaise of the West, the thinking goes, is due to having become misaligned with the Universe in the last few decades, but has nothing to do with China - the West is on its own trajectory, whatever that may be.

    As for Japan, they had a winning formula, suitable for a specific era, but then they became hide-bound and unwilling to change, they stuck with their tried and true formula. This is a mistake that those I've spoken to in China are all to conscious to avoid.

    One observation, though, and I think a valid one.

    Japan has not, in recent times, initiated major change from within. The Meiji reforms were a reaction to the West, while the post-WW2 era was again a reaction to defeat at Allied hands. Brilliant reactions to be sure.

    In contrast, while China discarded the Imperial system in response to the needs of modernity, it also had a huge Civil War that destroyed the old social order and gave extreme Communists control. Then it underwent, again from within, the Reform and Opening Era which discredited and removed the ideologues from power.

    Japan's greater success in modernizing means it has not had the revolutions found necessary by China. On the other hand, in spite of many failures, China has shown itself more willing to undergo self-initiated radical change.
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  49. WhiteWolf says:
    @DJV Melville
    A wonderful article!

    Some remarks-
    Verbally smart people already consider those who understand and apply maths superior to themselves.

    They rely on those who attempt to straddle the two spheres (like you) to translate maths into metaphorical language so that they have a very partial understanding of what it means, which is far better than no understanding.

    They, perhaps arrogantly, consider everything, including the natural world revealed by maths, to be grist to their linguistic mill.

    Minor points: you probably hurriedly 'cobbled' rather than 'cribbed' your article together.
    'Cocknitive' was good, and probably contains a fair amount of truth, similar to believing that the cause of AIDS is the common or garden cockchafer.

    Regards,
    Diana Melville

    When I was at school I was a natural at maths. I couldn’t understand why people had problems with it. To me it was a ridiculously easy subject. Yet I watched in awe one day as a student drew a scene from a sci-fi movie he had watched from memory. As I heaped praise on his talent he just shrugged. To him that was ridiculously easy and he thought nothing of it. I think we all tend to downplay our own talents and admire people who show talent in something we struggle with.

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  50. @AaronB
    Very intelligent and interesting comment, which strikes me as broadly true.

    The West doesn't do moderation - extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It's an unstable system.

    The Middle Ages were more of a moderate period of the West, but it gradually slipped into extreme pessimism by the 14th century, and was then replaced by extreme earthly optimism. The late 19th century saw despair and apathy growing as all that conquest and technological brilliance failed to result in "redemption", and life in this world remained as thorny and unsatisaying as ever.

    It will be interesting to see if Asia has really been transformed from within in a Western direction - and is now in a "Faustian" phase - or if it's a superficial graft and will be shed like a false skin once conditions are more propitious.

    So far, the nature of Asian catching up with the West has not been Faustian - no brilliant explosions - but a moderate level of steadily accumulating performance that, combined with the post-Faustian apathy of the West, has shifted the center of gravity towards Asia.

    But it's too early to tell.

    If the Japanese trajectory is a template for what we can except of an Asia trying to match and surpass the West, then we can except China to undergo a brief effloresence of performance followed by a return to more traditional cultural patterns that moderate disparate elements.

    And it will be interesting to see if the Faustian West has finaly dedtroyed itself or will learn moderation at long last.

    The West doesn’t do moderation – extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It’s an unstable system.

    Not sure about unstable, but yes. Its notable that the West really does seem to swing between golden and dark ages consistently. Insofar as moderation goes, I highly doubt the Faustian West will be “destroyed” either – restlessness clearly serves a purpose, and like all cycles, it’ll probably find its expression in a golden age once again after some generations.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    That's a good point, the West may well rise up again in a golden age at some future point, as it's history would suggest.

    However, there is always the possibility that the "Western cycle" of extreme rise and fall, as opposed to the "Asian cycle" of moderate rise and fall, has fewer cycles - because each cycle is more extreme - and may have a natural denouement.

    There might also be a "meta-cycle" in which the entire human world is now rushing towards destruction, to be followed perhaps by vast ice ages and climatic and geologic catastrophe, only for a new world to rise on its ashes - a new species even, perhaps, or a non human world.

    We know so little, and there is non reason the world needs to be favorable to our little species.

    Such vast cycles of world destruction are hinted at in Indian and Asian cosmogonies.
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  51. @Thought Criminal
    There are some caveats to this:

    1. Not all parts of technology are equally complex. In sectors like aerospace, East Asia has lagged behind. Again, the design problems, analytical models for design, and materials engineering, metrology, for military and space equipment (like avionics, sensors, composite materials, optics, electronics) is much more advanced than the rest put together. The USA, Russia, Israel and so on lead in these areas. It is much more complex than consumer gadgets, and it requires larger single obstacles. Single large technology innovations, like entirely new capabilities or layers of offense/defense (hypersonic munitions, radar, acoustics) were and are all made in the West or Russia. Although China might pull ahead here in the future, its strong areas are still different.

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is 'formal' instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the "psychology of invention", of visualization by research mathematicians.)

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions. Also see the work of François Jullien and Roger T. Ames on Chinese philosophy, philology and semiotics, including figures like Wang Bi. China invented a larger range of 'secondary languages' on top of natural language (while the West merely attempted it, e.g. the languages of Wilkins, Dalgarno, Leibniz). The West invented the single most rigorous language (formal mathematics).

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage. Pre-scientific experimentation is still just as relevant as science: heat engines were built before thermodynamics, airplanes before aerodynamics, the 'enigma of the aerofoil', computers before computer science, and so on.

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)

    While I agree that there, basically, are different “mathematical intelligences”, I think it is too early to say anything significant re east Asian accomplishments in math; as for Fields medals, we’ll have to see what happens in next 20-30 years.

    And, by the way, your thoughtful reference to Poincare, Hadamard (and we could add most of the greats from Descartes on) shows that “math intelligence” is a rough & perhaps too contradictory a concept.

    Perhaps “intelligence” is too narrow. What about creativity, imagination, “visual thinking”, non-discursive “thinking” a la Plotinus (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=5BBF8C5AE74B97F18D4379819A512F84)?

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions.

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    The same with literature- poetry is not translatable, while there are no Asian equivalents to universality of Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Proust.

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage.

    This is partly true, but I haven’t seen any progress in applying, say, acupuncture to modern medicine. In fact, it was seen to be a monumental placebo in some instances: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/ , http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

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    • Replies: @AaronB

    Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition,
     
    This is unfortunately untrue. Contra Yan Shen and the (understandably) emerging mythology, the distinctive Western achievement - its civilizations excellence - is in science, math, engineering, and technology.

    It is precisely in literature and philosophy where the West has not exceeded other civilizations - although it competed well.

    The Chinese reached the summit and apogee of philosophical thought, beyond which human thought cannot go, in its incomparably subtle and classic Taoist texts. This happened rather early - it took the Western tradition over 2,000 years to reach the same level of subtlety and to realize the limitations of language and the value of silence.

    What you see as a "rich" Western tradition is a record of movement towards a culminating point reached much earlier in China and India. Such a record would appear "rich" - and perhaps it's value is as a record of the steps.

    But the culminating point appeared full blown much earlier elsewhere.
    , @Yan Shen
    Regarding Chinese philosophy, Hegel famously commented that Confucius was "only a man who has a certain amount of practical and worldly wisdom- one with whom there is no speculative philosophy", suggesting that perhaps it would've been better for his reputation if his teachings had never been translated to begin with. Perhaps this isn't uh too surprising given that even by Western standards Hegel was considered a notoriously difficult to read meta-physician...

    https://books.google.com/books?id=bATIDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hegel+confucius+no+speculative+philosophy&source=bl&ots=3hBO6SX8V6&sig=-lmbweZxGQqfkQ0-DsEADs5kBSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDo92Lh9bZAhUhqFQKHf9rAusQ6AEISjAG#v=onepage&q=hegel%20confucius%20no%20speculative%20philosophy&f=false
    , @TT

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).
     
    Never able to understand a single word of Chinese or Indian languages and their thoughts, the fool declared their 5,000yrs civilization simply cannot withstand the comparison with our few hundred years Western tradition. See, our Effel tower is taller than the Egyptian pyramids, our Trumps border wall will be longer than the China Great Wall, our White House is more modern than India Taj Maha.

    What is Yiching, Taoism, Taodejing, Confucianism, Buddhism, Sun Tze Arts of War, Houheixue, Mengzi, Baijia, .... Vedas, Ayurveda, Hinduism, India philosophy, Buddhism,...i know not a single but it must be worst than what i can read in English Western books. Even thousands year old of Chinese astrology record that shown solar system earth is round & revolving around the sun, cannot compare with our great Galileo discovery that got himself killed.

    We alone are the most majestic, if we cover our own eyes no one can see us.
    , @Dmitry

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).
     

    Although with disclaimer I have no professional background in philosophy, let alone knowledge of the relevant languages - many great philosophers consider that Ancient Indian philosophy is one of the most respected traditions and some famous philosophers have believed it to be even more profound than Ancient Greek tradition. To discount the Indian philosophy tradition, which was praised by leading philosophers like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche - it seems a very tenuous position.
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  52. JJ says:
    @PandaAtWar
    Many sound points made there.

    Some examples you raise, however, are not entirely true:

    Current state-of-art semicon technologies inside consumer gadgets like some top smartphones don't loss a bit in their sophistications to any defence tech. Rather, most high end defence tech are rooted on these very semicon tech.

    Aerospace is a money-devouring-machine. One of the major reasons, if not the most deciding reason, why US/RUSSIA are far ahead in aerospace is due to 50-years-cold war accumulation of IMMENSE military budgets, R&D personnel and their forced hands-on experiences competing for life-or-death dominance , which neither China nor Japan had. Panda read somewhere that China's entire national budget for aerospace engine research & production, both tech, material & personnel cost, for the period from 1950s to 1980s were like meagerly 3 million dollars equivalent, which was less than the annual salary expenditure of a small US defence lab... If you add up fruits of earlier industrialisation foundation, US/UK/Japan/Germany were at least 100 years ahead of China in so many fields even at the 1980s...

    I agree on the aerospace analysis. Besides aerospace, to produce meaningful results most R&D is essentially a game of burning money plus accumulated experience/data from past trial and error (that also demands real money).The US economy relies heavily on seignoiorage from the dollar hegemony, but as the national debts grow, its previous model of depending on extravagant government funds and grants in R&D development has become difficult to go on. For example, in order to verify some basic data of a certain composite material US labs would conduct thousands of experiments, whereas china could achieve the same result by dozen times.

    Many people imagine high-tech as something hidden in the lab or like alien tech. They simply ignore the fact that those lab techs are meaningful only if they are accessible to people. If smart phones could be made better yet cheaper, i’d say that’s tremendous high-tech.

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  53. Retarded little Chinese clone speaks that the world will be theirs – Hello Bot, we’ll kill this clone project. Zhidaou bu – Chinese Imbecile – the world hates you clones.

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  54. Kartheek says:

    1.some one tell how come upper caste hindus (actually all castes in india) who practiced endogamy aka selection for atleast 2500 years are not more intelligent than jewish people

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Selection will only improve to the extent required by the environment: extant marsupials are well selected for survival in Australia but do not compete well against placental mammals introduced elsewhere.

    That's one theory at any rate.
    , @Billy
    They are.
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  55. @jilles dykstra
    Writing an article assuming anyone knows what HBD is, not a sign of a high IQ.
    Who can enlighten me ?

    Sure.

    Segregation was on display in London over the past two weeks–which, surprisingly, should spark no concerns and may even help educate us all about the wonders of human biodiversity. Let me explain.

    Led by 100-meter world record holder Usain Bolt, Jamaican men swept the sprinting events at the London Olympics. It was a stunning feat for the small Caribbean nation. But as part of a broader trend, it’s hardly surprising. Runners of West African descent are the fastest humans on earth….

    …This is population genetics 101. Bolt and his Jamaican teammates are members of a tiny slice of the world population—elite athletes who trace their ancestry to western and central Africa—whose body types and physiology have been uniquely shaped by thousands of years of evolution to run fast.

    Genetically linked, highly heritable characteristics such as skeletal structure, the distribution of muscle fiber types (for example, sprinters have more natural fast twitch fibers, while distance runners are naturally endowed with more of the slow twitch variety), reflex capabilities, metabolic efficiency and lung capacity are not evenly distributed among populations. Do we yet know the specific genes that contribute to on the field success? No, but that’s not an argument against the powerful role of genetics in sports.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2012/08/12/the-dna-olympics-jamaicans-win-sprinting-genetic-lottery-and-why-we-should-all-care/2/#49d0fa283fbe

    The brain is significantly, vastly more complex than muscle fiber, but there’s no reason to believe that it is completely immune to selectional pressures(or even pure happenstance). A more active amygdala will elicit certain behaviors, a more active prefrontal cortex will elicit others, and even as extraneous chemicals that pass the blood-brain barrier such as alcohol will affect cognition and behavior, it stands to reason that internally created chemicals will also affect behavior(as well as the types of neurons, receptors, etc.) We see both in sexual dimorphism of the brain, with the effects of testosterone on the brain both in its “carving” effects of reducing the connectivity of the corpus corpus callosum and presumably some effect that leads to larger hippocampi; the direct effect of testosterone injected in women also increases sense of competition, sexual interest and spatial intelligence. Akin to software, the chemical has an effect but the chemical also affects the hardware of the brain.

    This, of course, also makes me find IQ to be a rather dubious measure at times given the sheer complexity of how the brain works and what makes up cognition. But I can accept it as a casual, catch-all term with some limited functional utility.

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  56. Truth says:

    Assigned to write a story about what was going on at home, Terry went from room to room and made detailed lists of the contents.”

    Sounds like a barrel of monkeys.

    Social science might better be described these days as social justice, as so-called scientists often merely reinforce their ideological priors and preach politically correct, sanctimonious bullshit. Ideology masquerading as science, alas.

    Not nearly as much as physics. NASA is fake, and the “universe” is geocentric.

    Mathematically adept nerds are the real value creators, while their more extroverted, socially dominant, and verbally glib counterparts transfer that underlying value to themselves as business executives. Engineers are great at creating things for value for others to consume. Lawyers and businessmen on the other hand seem mostly proficient at extracting wealth created by others for themselves.

    This is senseless. Wealth cannot be extracted from a column of mathematical computations, or even a garage invention. Wealth is created when these products find their physical value in the market. That’s why Edison is more famous, and influential today, than Tesla.

    Good virgin effort though, my friend, superior to most of what is printed here already. Minor quibble though, don’t write “conclusion” on your work. It’s a op/ed piece, not a dissertation.

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    • Replies: @WhiteWolf
    It was Tesla who brought us AC power to our homes while Edison was pushing for DC which is a lot less efficient over long distances. Tesla did plenty of practical things with his genius and deserves to be recognized much more than he is.
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  57. Alden says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Writing an article assuming anyone knows what HBD is, not a sign of a high IQ.
    Who can enlighten me ?

    It means Human Bio Diversity.

    For a long time liberals have claimed that all races and ethnicities are the same despite obvious differences in size, color, bone structure.

    Realists call the physical biological differences Human Bio Diversity it’s a way to counteract the liberal propaganda that the only reason Africans and other races haven’t advanced is because of colonialism and evil White people

    Liberals call HBD racism, eugenics etc

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    They are not
    Melville J. Herskovits, 'The Myth of the Negro Past', 1941, 1958, Boston
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  58. JJ says:
    @Thought Criminal
    1. The West, Russia, Japan, China, all have radically different value systems: the reason why East Asia does not ‘invent’ is because it seeks not to radically invent, but other forms of expansion. Russia, again, has its own value system that led to its heights of literature, high-end engineering, mathematics, and so on.

    The Western world represented explosions: either an explosion at the beginning (Ancient Greece), or an endless explosion: at the top (French, Italian), or explosion from the inward to the outward (German). Quick, virtuosic invention (as in music) is explosion; it is the sudden seizing out, the inward to the outward, domination over a single great moment. Gradual construction, levels of discipline and vision (starting with the Romans, and cumulating in the development of accurate measurement and visual representation in the Italian Renaissance), directs invention and prevents its excesses. German culture ended with Richard Wagner, since he represented such a complete satisfaction of the inward exploding completely and totally, that there was nothing left to express: the full journey of body, mind and spirit ended here. (The only other explosive civilization of the past was Ancient India.)

    Russia (and also I think Hungary) represents turbulent eddies, vortices, psychological rather than philosophical, mentally unclear but clean in substance, the inward world that imitates and reflects the outward. It is the endless development and recovery from inner confusion. (Hence, the weakness of Russian philosophy was the strength of the Russian novel.) This is not the ‘explosion’ from the inward to the outward. It does not explode, it ‘gathers’ and mobilizes all aspects. The Russian expansion is the highest and deepest domination that ‘makes up for’ an inward disorder or blockage in a few crucial regions, makes up for the arctic squalor of the surroundings. (Hence, the Soviet style in mathematics and theoretical physics, without a single wasted particle of thought.) The obstacles are inward, not outward.

    East Asia represents not invention (the explosion), nor the endless “brewing” of Russia, but the power of organic breadth of expansion (while invention is only one type of expansion, but the fastest). East Asia has many uniquely deep forms of construction (the 'dialectical' structuring in its painting, literature, strategy), while the West has two uniquely deep forms of architectonic (pure mathematics, classical music composition). Unlike what Oswald Spengler said, there was never any clear, or non-muddled ‘inward consciousness’ of China or Japan, since the real basic principles were a matter of conceptual formation: everything — every conception, rule, goal, distinction, and inward-directedness — was a compromise or ‘moderated point’ between opposites (hence the contradictoriness of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism, one of them backward-looking even at an early point, one of them ‘moderated’ between inwardness and outwardness, one of them extreme — and each of them dealing with a different domain of questions). Another way to see this is that China never reached full civilization and satisfaction, nor had any ‘hardening’ to backward-looking satisfaction, or even any form of complete civilization: it combined or perpetually mixed this with its opposite: this is obvious at the levels of basic institutional disorder at each period (with violence ‘brewing’ beneath the surface), and the huge expansion in epic literature and strategic thinking that took place at later periods (say the Three Kingdoms). The same applies to Japan: it achieved enormous expansions, such as epic Samurai literature (The Tale of the Heike). It represents the wide expansion of an organism, that remains powerful at every single period, rather than completely revolutionary during a single one.

    Rather, the Chinese and Japanese conception of civilization is not a perfected state, but an arrangement that works in the long term (which must be moderated, not perfected). The Western revolutions in fundamental science were dependent on a stage in history, much like the advances in Ancient India (that constructed entire notations and subject matter from scratch). It is not guaranteed to be relevant beyond it. East Asian advances (in pre-scientific discovery and pure engineering) are relevant in every single stage, but not absolutely dominant over any single one. But after a certain stage in history (say, after fundamental physics is mostly clarified and there are only advances in condensed matter, complex systems and such), there is good evidence that both the Russian and East Asian modes will be dominant over the Western one.


    2. The two (China and Japan) never were antagonists. Japan helped China at a systemic level; competent Chinese leadership were trained in Japan (like Chiang Kai-Shek, Zhou En-lai), and without Japan there would have been no Chinese attempt at modernization. Japanese conquest of Manchuria was necessary to halting Russian imperial advances towards China. A Japanese conquest of China would subtract nothing from the culture but simply add additional elements (compare this to the Maoists, who tried to abolish Kanji). Japanese ‘massacres’ were balanced by the fact that they saved elite Chinese cultural figures like Lu Xun from nationalist White Terror. The technology transfer that went from Japan to China from the 1970s-90s was the largest transfer of production know-how in all of human history, and covered extreme high-end production technology that the USA tried to avoid access to (this is detailed by Eamonn Fingleton, in his book). The point is, without Japan, China would be nowhere today: and vice versa (Japan’s industrialization of Manchuria provided the model for its post-war economic system). E. Asian countries have ambiguous — not absolutely negative or positive — relations with each other. The West tends to misunderstand this because it simply stops at observing a certain practice without looking at different aspects of it. E.g., the same Chinese people who complain about Japan also buy Japanese products and entertainment, visit Japan as tourists, and Chinese students still seek Japan as the top destination.

    This is based on the basic principles. Chinese and Japanese culture (including its philosophy and basic way of forming conceptions) is based on the principle of moderation: every belief, rule, law, goal, system is not followed absolutely but with exceptions, or with contradictory aspects. The same goes for Japan and other E. Asian countries: if you understand their philosophy and cultural values, “moderation” is something prior to the idea of civilization itself. That is, China was never completely civilized in its history (but mixed civilization, barbarism, decadence). The West fully rises and declines; China never had any comparable golden ages (only silver ages). China does not support full freedom or totalitarianism, but some compromise in the middle (escaping certain limitations of both extremes, like internet restrictions today are easily evaded). There is little absolute friendship or opening oneself up in China (hence the dislike for dogs). China is never fully educated, but never completely ‘dark’ (there is a ‘spirit’ of education). China was never absolutely safe in any part of its history, but it avoided both extremes. China is never absolutely racialist; it referred to barbarians as inferiors, but it also encouraged racial mixing with barbarians throughout its history, and the concept of ‘Chinese’ is racially ambiguous (not as universal as ‘Roman’, but not strictly an ethnic group either). There is a sharp moderation between the public and the private views, in which contradictions are cultivated. China never had absolute civic spirit, but its periods of disunity lasted shorter than in the West (where an empire permanently split into smaller warring countries). Guerilla warfare is China’s specialty, and it is literally ‘intermediate’ between individual criminality, and organized, civic warfare. That is, China is not any less criminal than the West, but it lacks any features of blunt, random violence as in the West, or purely gratuitous violence or torture. None of this is guaranteed to be absolutely superior or inferior; it actually depends on which stage of history one is talking about.

    (It is exactly by working with moderated properties, like Yin and Yang not being absolutely exclusive, that makes qualities more elaborate and structured, with one thing converting to its opposite if pushed enough; e.g., by attempting to be moderate in every area, you push the extremes to a few crucial ones — like the vast scale of literary production, and overall longevity. Also, there is no ‘induction’ from a particular to a general since every particular fact is actually fully ‘general’; every particular belief or seemingly simple distinction, is structured by contradictory aspects.)

    This has, it must be admitted, certain long-term advantages: the fact that China is never absolutely civilized (but is partly barbarous, and partly decadent) prevents it from declining to extreme decadence, like what is happening with European birthrates. The fact that they are centralized yet highly corrupt has long-term advantages, since China can adopt many ‘dangerous’ technologies that would not be possible in more rigid societies (like a long-term space program, human genetic engineering). China was never as militarily powerful as the Roman Empire or Russia or Germany was at its height, but never as weak as they were in their weak periods either: this again makes for longevity (of military power; that is, China’s guerilla warfare capabilities were always good and they were able to ‘gradually’ push out invaders).

    But then ‘longevity’ itself is moderated: China is slightly more continuous (in terms of a continued stream of major and highly influential literary production) than India, Persia or Europe, and in the form of institutions, and in specific intellectual ‘traditions’ that depend on deep linguistic construction, but it is not quite as continuous as Japan. It is in many aspects (like presevation of architecture) not as continuous as Europe. Not only is longevity moderated, but also the attitude towards longevity is moderated: China boasts about being ancient, but destroys actual direct artifacts of the past, and it also adopts foreign ideas, technology, and so on.

    It is also the basic principle of both Chinese and Japanese philosophy. Yukio Mishima, say, was a good example of a Japanese ‘Zen’ figure (and he is still so regarded in Japan itself); by purging himself of Chinese influence, he becomes a figure characteristic of China itself (the ‘revolutionary ideologists’ at the end of each dynastic period, including Lu Xun in the 20th century) rather than Japan. By supporting his own imaginary Japan, he renders himself helpless against the real, actual Japan in the flesh. By being a Western-style individualist and Nietzschean egotist (towards positive affirmation), he commits suicide in the end (nihilism), which is the extreme ‘emptiness’ of the self. By rejecting Buddhism, he becomes a very ‘Zen’ figure. By projecting a false image of the Japanese as inward individualists, he paralyzes the Western understanding of Japan, and so destroys the West and individualism.

    I remember reading a comment here suggesting that the Christian values have played an important role in pushing the western society forward by encouraging people to seek new things. In contrast, there is a saying in China that living in the moment 活在当下, and i think china would be happily to do so had it not for the purpose of catching up and competing with the west after the opium war. If we think about it, are we really that much happier than our ancestors living in the past with no TVs, smartphones, etc? Modern technologies are basically some fancy toys that divert our attention from something to another. So far we haven’t faced a nuclear holocaust that causes the collapse of civilization, but the relentless urge to be unique, to invent something new, may well lead to the demise of human race. For one thing, AI is not that far away to replace humans.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    For one thing, AI is not that far away to replace humans.
     
    And it doesn't need to. As Kacynzski noted, we rapidly moving to outsource our thinking away from us. So the thinkmeats in our heads probably won't matter all that much anymore soon enough.
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  59. Truth says:

    and in general the country seems to be run by a coterie of lawyers and TV stars, while in contrast Chinese leaders seem to disproportionately possess engineering degrees instead. [42]

    Well if one were to assume the net immigration flow as evidence, my question would be, “how’s that workin’ out?”

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Very poorly, but is being promoted by other members of the conspiracy that claim that Earth is not actually flat!

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/968608879914270721?lang=en
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  60. @Kartheek
    1.some one tell how come upper caste hindus (actually all castes in india) who practiced endogamy aka selection for atleast 2500 years are not more intelligent than jewish people

    Selection will only improve to the extent required by the environment: extant marsupials are well selected for survival in Australia but do not compete well against placental mammals introduced elsewhere.

    That’s one theory at any rate.

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  61. sondjata says:

    This was probably the best read I’ve had this year so far.

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  62. East Asians are a bunch of high IQ clones, they are the human approximation of BOTs there’s no metaphysics in their souls – nothing at all – their religion which they don’t now have came from India – Buddhism – which doesn’t exist now – bunch of money grubbing bots they are close to being total machines – beware of these bots UNZ commenteriat. They are the closest approximation to human machines – no metaphysics in their souls.

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    • Replies: @TT

    East Asians are a bunch of high IQ clones, they are the human approximation of BOTs there’s no metaphysics in their souls – nothing at all – their religion which they don’t now have came from India – Buddhism – which doesn’t exist now – bunch of money grubbing bots they are close to being total machines – beware of these bots UNZ commenteriat. They are the closest approximation to human machines – no metaphysics in their souls.
     
    When we degenerate, our IQ go subpar, we cried the better ones are Bot. Not knowing Buddhism though almost disappear in their original India land ruined by Hindu, they flourish in the world, in Buddhist countries Thailand, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Laos, and in Asia they blossom. Even western countries wise men are tasting its sweet dews. The frog below cannot taste the sweetness of flower pollens, but distant butterfly & bees come gather them.

    The jackal sore in its ass, with subpar IQ, is howling.... they are high IQ clones, we are retard... howl...howl...
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  63. @niteranger
    An excellent article and well researched. I agree with many conclusions, however, my first problem is with your statement about SATs not being compromised. In high school my friend wanted to go to West Point. He had 815 on his SATs. This was many years ago, not the SATs of today. He went to a military prep school for a year. He raised his SATs to 1250. He made it to West Point and is now a Colonel.

    In the same class the number one student, a female couldn't get 800 on the SATs. She just couldn't take the test and would get so tense she just would be in tears. She had straight A's in everything but SAT test phobia. She became a doctor.

    One of my fishing buddies is a retired guidance counselor. He takes top notch students and teaches them how to take the SATs and raise their scores. It works for him. A male student two years ahead of me in high school missed only one question on his SATs. He is now in a mental institution.

    The next problem I have is the number of papers published as criterion for excellence. You can publish anything if you have the money. Computer software is publishing fake articles:https://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2014/feb/26/how-computer-generated-fake-papers-flooding-academia. Most of the papers published today are a joke and most of the people writing them don't understand the statistics they use. Taleb has pointed this out many times.

    You should also check out the number of papers retracted. I believe the Asian countries have some of the highest numbers in science.

    Your idea that because you are great in one area does not mean that you'll be great or even competent in another discipline is well established in my estimation. Sir Isaac Newton was a brilliant physicist but had a child like understanding of biology and was a closet alchemist. There was a famous chemist who won the Nobel Prize years ago who didn't understand basic ecology and made a number stupid statements that left people wondering how he got the Nobel Prize (can't remember his name). I knew a woman who made her living editing and revising books on engineering. She thought engineers were the worse writers in the world.

    Finally, perhaps the worse offenders are those in the humanities and social sciences (these are not sciences; just because you quantify something doesn't make it better especially if it's garbage to begin with). You can watch these people on tv, the web and in books trying to write, interpret, and pontificate on stuff they know nothing about. The really sad part is the talking head on the likes of CNN, MSNBC, ABC or any other network who don't realize that these people are not real scientists and are dead wrong on just about everything they say.

    Overall this is a very good article and I thank you for writing it.

    (I am having problems with editing tonight with the website; it keeps jumping around ; it could be my browser; also last night I got some strange code at the top of the page)
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  64. Good, well-referenced article, wow! (though I’ll admit I skimmed parts). Typo alert: Yamanka -> Yamanaka in photo legend.

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  65. @JJ
    I remember reading a comment here suggesting that the Christian values have played an important role in pushing the western society forward by encouraging people to seek new things. In contrast, there is a saying in China that living in the moment 活在当下, and i think china would be happily to do so had it not for the purpose of catching up and competing with the west after the opium war. If we think about it, are we really that much happier than our ancestors living in the past with no TVs, smartphones, etc? Modern technologies are basically some fancy toys that divert our attention from something to another. So far we haven't faced a nuclear holocaust that causes the collapse of civilization, but the relentless urge to be unique, to invent something new, may well lead to the demise of human race. For one thing, AI is not that far away to replace humans.

    For one thing, AI is not that far away to replace humans.

    And it doesn’t need to. As Kacynzski noted, we rapidly moving to outsource our thinking away from us. So the thinkmeats in our heads probably won’t matter all that much anymore soon enough.

    Read More
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  66. Remember this UNZ east Asians are BOTs there’s no metaphysics in their SOULS. Just ruthless pragmatists who approximate ROBOTS.

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  67. Alden says:
    @Dwright
    Still doesn’t explain why asians are such poor drivers. Over analytical?

    Asians born or raised in America are just fine. It’s the immigrants from many countries not just Asians that are the problem.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    Tillie disagrees!
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  68. bjondo says:
    @jim jones
    We should have a list of all the things China failed to invent:

    Internal combustion engine
    The Transistor
    Antibiotics
    The Calculus
    The jet engine
    Polymers
    Nuclear fission and fusion
    Nitrogen fertilizers
    Vaccines
    Television
    Radio

    What invented and what found?

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    • Replies: @Realist
    The only item on the list that could be considered found would be antibiotics.
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  69. @Truth

    and in general the country seems to be run by a coterie of lawyers and TV stars, while in contrast Chinese leaders seem to disproportionately possess engineering degrees instead. [42]
     
    Well if one were to assume the net immigration flow as evidence, my question would be, "how's that workin' out?"

    Very poorly, but is being promoted by other members of the conspiracy that claim that Earth is not actually flat!

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    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    LOL
    In the days of Marshal Stalin, they only needed one worker, Comrade Stakhanov, not 1,500. Obviously, things have been regressing since the good old days, as Andrei Martyanov, The Saker et al will attest.
    , @Truth
    That's cool!

    Those preganant women will be able to get to the airport so much more comfortably.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/04/01/china-usa-birth-tourists-business-strong/24887837/
    , @Intelligent Dasein
    A short distance from my office, road crews have been continuously tearing up and re-patching the same intersection for the last 10 years. I kid you not. I have no idea what they're doing there but whatever it is, it took less time to put a man on the Moon. The difference between the USA and China c. 2018, summed up right there

    The only consolation is that back in 2010 the road crews were uniformly Mexican. Now they are almost all White.

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  70. Truth says:
    @Alden
    Asians born or raised in America are just fine. It’s the immigrants from many countries not just Asians that are the problem.

    Tillie disagrees!

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Exactly!!! Alden is a degenerate RCCer. No Asians/blacks/Jews in the West. We Caucasians/Europeans did just fine without these races.
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  71. Don’t get me wrong I’m married to a Chinese wife but this cultures’ lack of metaphysics is something to be noted just like their lack of protest at the present president declaring himself a tyrant for life.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Third time is the charm for trolls, I hear.
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  72. @Dwright
    Still doesn’t explain why asians are such poor drivers. Over analytical?

    Being human flesh clones, our thinking has to be outsourced to from a nearby mothership and it takes a few seconds for reflexive decisions to be made as increasing junk lowers signal integrity from the near-earth orbit.

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  73. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh


    The West doesn’t do moderation – extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It’s an unstable system.
     
    Not sure about unstable, but yes. Its notable that the West really does seem to swing between golden and dark ages consistently. Insofar as moderation goes, I highly doubt the Faustian West will be "destroyed" either - restlessness clearly serves a purpose, and like all cycles, it'll probably find its expression in a golden age once again after some generations.

    That’s a good point, the West may well rise up again in a golden age at some future point, as it’s history would suggest.

    However, there is always the possibility that the “Western cycle” of extreme rise and fall, as opposed to the “Asian cycle” of moderate rise and fall, has fewer cycles – because each cycle is more extreme – and may have a natural denouement.

    There might also be a “meta-cycle” in which the entire human world is now rushing towards destruction, to be followed perhaps by vast ice ages and climatic and geologic catastrophe, only for a new world to rise on its ashes – a new species even, perhaps, or a non human world.

    We know so little, and there is non reason the world needs to be favorable to our little species.

    Such vast cycles of world destruction are hinted at in Indian and Asian cosmogonies.

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  74. AaronB says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)
     
    While I agree that there, basically, are different "mathematical intelligences", I think it is too early to say anything significant re east Asian accomplishments in math; as for Fields medals, we'll have to see what happens in next 20-30 years.

    And, by the way, your thoughtful reference to Poincare, Hadamard (and we could add most of the greats from Descartes on) shows that "math intelligence" is a rough & perhaps too contradictory a concept.

    Perhaps "intelligence" is too narrow. What about creativity, imagination, "visual thinking", non-discursive "thinking" a la Plotinus (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=5BBF8C5AE74B97F18D4379819A512F84)?

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions.
     
    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    The same with literature- poetry is not translatable, while there are no Asian equivalents to universality of Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Proust.

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage.
     
    This is partly true, but I haven't seen any progress in applying, say, acupuncture to modern medicine. In fact, it was seen to be a monumental placebo in some instances: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/ , http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

    Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition,

    This is unfortunately untrue. Contra Yan Shen and the (understandably) emerging mythology, the distinctive Western achievement – its civilizations excellence – is in science, math, engineering, and technology.

    It is precisely in literature and philosophy where the West has not exceeded other civilizations – although it competed well.

    The Chinese reached the summit and apogee of philosophical thought, beyond which human thought cannot go, in its incomparably subtle and classic Taoist texts. This happened rather early – it took the Western tradition over 2,000 years to reach the same level of subtlety and to realize the limitations of language and the value of silence.

    What you see as a “rich” Western tradition is a record of movement towards a culminating point reached much earlier in China and India. Such a record would appear “rich” – and perhaps it’s value is as a record of the steps.

    But the culminating point appeared full blown much earlier elsewhere.

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  75. @Grahamsno(G64)
    Don't get me wrong I'm married to a Chinese wife but this cultures' lack of metaphysics is something to be noted just like their lack of protest at the present president declaring himself a tyrant for life.

    Third time is the charm for trolls, I hear.

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  76. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    If you were a student in China who wanted to study in the US during the 1970s, 80s, or 90s, etc., and you wanted the Chinese government to let you go, you had to be a science or engineering student. The government saw no benefit to letting students go abroad who wanted to study literature.

    This effect was repeated in other Asian countries, but for different reasons. The best science and engineering schools are in the US, so students of that ilk tend to go to the US. But if you were verbally gifted, the universities at home served you fine.

    But over the last two generations, this means that the Asian students trained in the US in sciences were the ones most likely to have picked up connections that could land them US science jobs after their time in the US university. Some of them naturally chose to leave their home countries and move to the US. The Asian-US population has a disproportionate number of scientists in it, and their kids tend to move in Asian social enclaves among the kids of other Asian scientists, and marry among them. This favors the science genes.

    Also, US tech companies arrange for HB-1 visas to be given to science students. They don’t give them to literature students because they see no reason to hire from that pool in the Asian countries.

    The Asian-US population is not a representative sample of Asians.

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  77. It was not IQ which won the west this world, it was boldness of the spirit of adventure which can’t be measured in any test. Who would want to be Columbus, or Magellan, oceans are terrifying a taste of the infinity we live in – yet they sailed through these navigators of the infinite – which no other culture did – these Chinese bots didn’t even discover the giant continent sized country Australia – right under there asses – yet it took a Captain Cook to discover something under this clone army asses.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Just the will to survive
    Felipe Fernández-Armesto, ‘Civilisations’, London, 2000
    , @TT

    Who would want to be Columbus, or Magellan, oceans are terrifying a taste of the infinity we live in – yet they sailed through these navigators of the infinite – which no other culture did – these Chinese bots didn’t even discover the giant continent sized country Australia – right under there asses – yet it took a Captain Cook to discover something under this clone army asses.
     
    Using the map drawn by Ming Dynasty Zhenghe, Columbus, Magenan navigated the oceans, and Cook discovered the land shown in the ancient map. There, the Anglosaxon whites scream, we found it, the Chinese map is correct. Off they load their criminals there, killing the native aborigines like pests and colonized the continent with criminals. They found the mongrel dogs left by Zhenghe for probing the swarmy land toxic gas, gave it a mighty name Tasmania Tiger,..bark bark..their tiger roar.

    Now the jackal is proudly howling here, we found it, we found it, the Chinese map is correct. Right under their ass we stole it from the aborigines that they left them in peace for many hundreds years. Our DNA is Viking, wherever we landed, blood flow, fire burnt, men we killed, women we rape, treasures we robbed, land we occupied. Howl.. howl...
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  78. @Daniel Chieh
    Very poorly, but is being promoted by other members of the conspiracy that claim that Earth is not actually flat!

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/968608879914270721?lang=en

    LOL
    In the days of Marshal Stalin, they only needed one worker, Comrade Stakhanov, not 1,500. Obviously, things have been regressing since the good old days, as Andrei Martyanov, The Saker et al will attest.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Honestly a lot of feats are possible once you have the infrastructure for it. One particular reason why I dislike the entire "oh at this gleaming monument" attention-grabbers that are so popular is that it usually neglects the scaffolding of having the right people, processes and other things which take a lot longer to develop.

    You can build a widget in 5 minutes, but the important part is the 50 years in the knowledge and equipment to build the assembly plant, managers and so on. People seem very fixated on the end product widgets, though.
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  79. lavoisier says: • Website

    Very interesting perspective and probably true.

    And what about creativity? Novelty? Any split there with mathematical versus verbal ability?

    Given the clear ascendancy of an Asian technical elite today what is the explanation for scientific creativity and innovation historically being almost exclusively a Western creation?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I have some theories, but yes, creativity is not particularly related to IQ from my research. There's some evidence that it is even negatively correlated, as children with ADHD have worse working memory(highly tied to IQ) but better creativity.

    I actually have a much more extensive theory on this. I do find it a bit unfortunate that overall, there isn't actually that much research in creativity and instead we get a lot of flipflam out there.

    , @jilles dykstra
    The Grand Titration Science and Society in East and West China History, Philosopy, Economic

    Joseph Needham

    Published by Routledge

    The historical civilization of China is, with the Indian and European-Semitic, one of the three greatest in the world, yet only relatively recently has any enquiry been begun into its achievements in science and technology.
    Between the first and fifteenth centuries the Chinese were generally far in advance of Europe and it was not until the scientific revolution of the Renaissance that Europe drew ahead.
    Throughout those fifteen centuries, and ever since, the West has been profoundly affected by the discoveries and invention emanating from China and East Asia.
    In this series of essays and lectures, Joseph Needham explores the mystery of Chinas early lead and Europes later overtaking
    , @anonymous

    And what about creativity? Novelty? Any split there with mathematical versus verbal ability?
     
    Does anyone know if creativity is related to the personality trait "openness to experience"? Off-hand, I assume people of Euro descent score higher in that than do people of E. Asian descent. If so, could "openness to experience" also be related to Europeans' love affair with mass immigration, LGBT, and other pathologies in the West?
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  80. @Alden
    It means Human Bio Diversity.

    For a long time liberals have claimed that all races and ethnicities are the same despite obvious differences in size, color, bone structure.

    Realists call the physical biological differences Human Bio Diversity it’s a way to counteract the liberal propaganda that the only reason Africans and other races haven’t advanced is because of colonialism and evil White people

    Liberals call HBD racism, eugenics etc

    They are not
    Melville J. Herskovits, ‘The Myth of the Negro Past’, 1941, 1958, Boston

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  81. @Grahamsno(G64)
    It was not IQ which won the west this world, it was boldness of the spirit of adventure which can't be measured in any test. Who would want to be Columbus, or Magellan, oceans are terrifying a taste of the infinity we live in - yet they sailed through these navigators of the infinite - which no other culture did - these Chinese bots didn't even discover the giant continent sized country Australia - right under there asses - yet it took a Captain Cook to discover something under this clone army asses.

    Just the will to survive
    Felipe Fernández-Armesto, ‘Civilisations’, London, 2000

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  82. YS, gives us a palaverous stew. The base for it is yeah Math, and East Asians are skewed to the right for it. From this fairly sound base he adds in a vegetable mix that taints the stew. There are rich and hearty bites here. A countries manufacturing base matters and should be protected. It is just too bad it is cruded up with so much adulterated unctuousness.

    YS struggles as he has immersed himself in the west, yet seems to hate himself for it. He is a poster child for why we need to turn the immigration dial down to simmer and let the melting pot work.

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  83. @lavoisier
    Very interesting perspective and probably true.

    And what about creativity? Novelty? Any split there with mathematical versus verbal ability?

    Given the clear ascendancy of an Asian technical elite today what is the explanation for scientific creativity and innovation historically being almost exclusively a Western creation?

    I have some theories, but yes, creativity is not particularly related to IQ from my research. There’s some evidence that it is even negatively correlated, as children with ADHD have worse working memory(highly tied to IQ) but better creativity.

    I actually have a much more extensive theory on this. I do find it a bit unfortunate that overall, there isn’t actually that much research in creativity and instead we get a lot of flipflam out there.

    Read More
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  84. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Very poorly, but is being promoted by other members of the conspiracy that claim that Earth is not actually flat!

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/968608879914270721?lang=en

    That’s cool!

    Those preganant women will be able to get to the airport so much more comfortably.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/04/01/china-usa-birth-tourists-business-strong/24887837/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    As cute as the snide link might be, it is pretty indicative that the result of the near total absence of any technical know-how in American leadership has led to some really nonoptimal results as of late. I'm not one to argue that there should be more engineers in Congress, etc; but I think that the presence of technically competent advisers and staff should be greater. The almost complete dearth of anything but lawyers in all levels of decisionmaking leads to some very strange results.

    It contributes heavily to the entire "not a serious country" feeling. This is not a "white countries with rule of law need lawyers" thing; even in Germany, there is a greater proportion of politicians with engineering or scientific degrees. I believe this is the case in Russia as well.

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  85. @Verymuchalive
    LOL
    In the days of Marshal Stalin, they only needed one worker, Comrade Stakhanov, not 1,500. Obviously, things have been regressing since the good old days, as Andrei Martyanov, The Saker et al will attest.

    Honestly a lot of feats are possible once you have the infrastructure for it. One particular reason why I dislike the entire “oh at this gleaming monument” attention-grabbers that are so popular is that it usually neglects the scaffolding of having the right people, processes and other things which take a lot longer to develop.

    You can build a widget in 5 minutes, but the important part is the 50 years in the knowledge and equipment to build the assembly plant, managers and so on. People seem very fixated on the end product widgets, though.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    You mean something like this, ho ho ho !
    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2109035/china-firms-plan-develop-4000-km/h-train-just-pipe-dream
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  86. A couple of gripes: an incidental one – Weinberg’s comments about philosophy are not just philistinic but wrong – look at Einstein’s engagement with the epistemological tradition and its influence on his thought for example.

    Secondly, and more importantly, I worry about an argument based on comparisons in only the contemporary world. If an analyst were asked the same question – comparing quantitative and non quantitative intelligence between E Asia and Europe in the year 1800, what would he decide? I believe he would come to the opposite conclusions – that Europe’s increasing global dominance was based on its quantitative science and E Asia’s decline on its focus on non quantitative / ‘civilizational’ arts and skills. But if this difference has an HBD component the difference in eras shouldn’t matter.

    I suspect sociological factors matter just as much as genetic – in that the most quantitative-heavy industries are the ones most associated with development ‘catch-up’. But that’s just a first stab at an alternative hypothesis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB

    If an analyst were asked the same question – comparing quantitative and non quantitative intelligence between E Asia and Europe in the year 1800, what would he decide? I believe he would come to the opposite conclusions – that Europe’s increasing global dominance was based on its quantitative science and E Asia’s decline on its focus on non quantitative / ‘civilizational’ arts and skills.
     
    Excellent point.

    It's why all these comparisons based on recent data from the last century are seriously problematical.
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  87. @Truth
    That's cool!

    Those preganant women will be able to get to the airport so much more comfortably.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/04/01/china-usa-birth-tourists-business-strong/24887837/

    As cute as the snide link might be, it is pretty indicative that the result of the near total absence of any technical know-how in American leadership has led to some really nonoptimal results as of late. I’m not one to argue that there should be more engineers in Congress, etc; but I think that the presence of technically competent advisers and staff should be greater. The almost complete dearth of anything but lawyers in all levels of decisionmaking leads to some very strange results.

    It contributes heavily to the entire “not a serious country” feeling. This is not a “white countries with rule of law need lawyers” thing; even in Germany, there is a greater proportion of politicians with engineering or scientific degrees. I believe this is the case in Russia as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    We don't need "optimal results" my friend. Technology is overrated.

    "You" built a subway in a day. Great! But the workers still can't afford an apartment, and will never be married.

    So who cares?
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  88. @lavoisier
    Very interesting perspective and probably true.

    And what about creativity? Novelty? Any split there with mathematical versus verbal ability?

    Given the clear ascendancy of an Asian technical elite today what is the explanation for scientific creativity and innovation historically being almost exclusively a Western creation?

    The Grand Titration Science and Society in East and West China History, Philosopy, Economic

    Joseph Needham

    Published by Routledge

    The historical civilization of China is, with the Indian and European-Semitic, one of the three greatest in the world, yet only relatively recently has any enquiry been begun into its achievements in science and technology.
    Between the first and fifteenth centuries the Chinese were generally far in advance of Europe and it was not until the scientific revolution of the Renaissance that Europe drew ahead.
    Throughout those fifteen centuries, and ever since, the West has been profoundly affected by the discoveries and invention emanating from China and East Asia.
    In this series of essays and lectures, Joseph Needham explores the mystery of Chinas early lead and Europes later overtaking

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  89. @Dwright
    Still doesn’t explain why asians are such poor drivers. Over analytical?
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  90. AaronB says:

    Given the clear ascendancy of an Asian technical elite today what is the explanation for scientific creativity and innovation historically being almost exclusively a Western creation?

    One hypothesis is that it’s effort.

    Since effort cannot be separated from IQ, it seems likely that current Asian technological ascendancy, as well as spatial IQ tilt, is a result of a tremendous redirection of effort away from traditional literary pursuits in order to meet the challenge of the West.

    Similarly, the Western technological ascendancy was the result of a tremendous redirection of effort towards domination of nature.

    There is evidence that western IQs were higher in the 19th century – the great age of striving – and I wonder if western spatial IQ also was higher, though perhaps not as tilted.

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  91. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    So basically, if you have an IQ of 125+ and are pretty unbalanced, then the sky’s the limit, so far as achievement is concerned. However, if you can both add up and do joined up writing, you’re probably not going anywhere other than to do some of the essential work of the world and perhaps raising another generation of nobodies.

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  92. @Daniel Chieh
    Honestly a lot of feats are possible once you have the infrastructure for it. One particular reason why I dislike the entire "oh at this gleaming monument" attention-grabbers that are so popular is that it usually neglects the scaffolding of having the right people, processes and other things which take a lot longer to develop.

    You can build a widget in 5 minutes, but the important part is the 50 years in the knowledge and equipment to build the assembly plant, managers and so on. People seem very fixated on the end product widgets, though.
    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, I tend to think of those as silly boondoggles.
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  93. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    As cute as the snide link might be, it is pretty indicative that the result of the near total absence of any technical know-how in American leadership has led to some really nonoptimal results as of late. I'm not one to argue that there should be more engineers in Congress, etc; but I think that the presence of technically competent advisers and staff should be greater. The almost complete dearth of anything but lawyers in all levels of decisionmaking leads to some very strange results.

    It contributes heavily to the entire "not a serious country" feeling. This is not a "white countries with rule of law need lawyers" thing; even in Germany, there is a greater proportion of politicians with engineering or scientific degrees. I believe this is the case in Russia as well.

    We don’t need “optimal results” my friend. Technology is overrated.

    “You” built a subway in a day. Great! But the workers still can’t afford an apartment, and will never be married.

    So who cares?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    We don’t need “optimal results” my friend. Technology is overrated.


     

    Anything is possible on Flat Earth.

    Indeed, even apartments are unnecessary because they need technology to build. This is an exceedingly pointless discussion clearly being done on the "internet", which is also overrated and unneeded.

    , @AaronB
    Let them have their day of victory.

    The West was also crowing in it's day of techno ascendancy. It's ungenerous and petty to deny it to Asians when the tables are turned. They worked very hard for this.

    I'm extremely optimistic - even excited - that the West is beginning to see that "technology is overrated", but if we have really decided to shift our efforts away from techno ascendancy let's generously allow Asians their day in the sun.
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  94. AaronB says:
    @blank-misgivings
    A couple of gripes: an incidental one - Weinberg's comments about philosophy are not just philistinic but wrong - look at Einstein's engagement with the epistemological tradition and its influence on his thought for example.

    Secondly, and more importantly, I worry about an argument based on comparisons in only the contemporary world. If an analyst were asked the same question - comparing quantitative and non quantitative intelligence between E Asia and Europe in the year 1800, what would he decide? I believe he would come to the opposite conclusions - that Europe's increasing global dominance was based on its quantitative science and E Asia's decline on its focus on non quantitative / 'civilizational' arts and skills. But if this difference has an HBD component the difference in eras shouldn't matter.

    I suspect sociological factors matter just as much as genetic - in that the most quantitative-heavy industries are the ones most associated with development 'catch-up'. But that's just a first stab at an alternative hypothesis.

    If an analyst were asked the same question – comparing quantitative and non quantitative intelligence between E Asia and Europe in the year 1800, what would he decide? I believe he would come to the opposite conclusions – that Europe’s increasing global dominance was based on its quantitative science and E Asia’s decline on its focus on non quantitative / ‘civilizational’ arts and skills.

    Excellent point.

    It’s why all these comparisons based on recent data from the last century are seriously problematical.

    Read More
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  95. Eagle Eye says:
    @anony-mouse
    Exactly 7500 words? You could have edited it.

    There ya go.

    Yes, good piece, but needs serious editing and tightening (which coincidentally proves the main point re math-verbal split). In particular, get rid of the over-use of “I” – reminds one of a Barry Obama speech.

    Also, the thesis raises some follow-on points:

    (1) What other sub-areas of abilities (apart from verbal) are of practical importance and show divergence from general g?

    For example, features such as stubbornness in the face of accepted scientific (or political, etc.) opinion? (Think of 司馬遷, Martin Luther, Max Planck, etc.)

    (2) Given the divergence of verbal and non-verbal abilities at the right tail, does it still make sense to aggregate these measurements into a single g value?

    P.S.: Please correct the name of the Japanese physician in the caption. It’s Shinya Yam_A_naka.

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  96. @Verymuchalive
    You mean something like this, ho ho ho !
    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2109035/china-firms-plan-develop-4000-km/h-train-just-pipe-dream

    Yes, I tend to think of those as silly boondoggles.

    Read More
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  97. @Truth
    We don't need "optimal results" my friend. Technology is overrated.

    "You" built a subway in a day. Great! But the workers still can't afford an apartment, and will never be married.

    So who cares?

    We don’t need “optimal results” my friend. Technology is overrated.

    Anything is possible on Flat Earth.

    Indeed, even apartments are unnecessary because they need technology to build. This is an exceedingly pointless discussion clearly being done on the “internet”, which is also overrated and unneeded.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    You don't have Twinkie's IQ, but you are smart enough to understand the point.
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  98. AaronB says:
    @Truth
    We don't need "optimal results" my friend. Technology is overrated.

    "You" built a subway in a day. Great! But the workers still can't afford an apartment, and will never be married.

    So who cares?

    Let them have their day of victory.

    The West was also crowing in it’s day of techno ascendancy. It’s ungenerous and petty to deny it to Asians when the tables are turned. They worked very hard for this.

    I’m extremely optimistic – even excited – that the West is beginning to see that “technology is overrated”, but if we have really decided to shift our efforts away from techno ascendancy let’s generously allow Asians their day in the sun.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Exactly, let them have their time at the material apex; then they can decide whether they like it there or not. We can have a bunch of new inventions with original names in Mandarin. We will benefit from their inventions; well, assuming they don’t create clouds of AI-driven killer nanobots.

    I was just telling a brother what a shame it is that “modern” architecture has started springing up in China’s major cities - so ugly and soulless compared to the classical Chinese architecture with its rich and unique style.

    Interesting thread.

    Peace.
    , @Yan Shen
    My point was less that any particular group would necessarily come out on top and more that different groups of people would end up specializing in areas where they were naturally inclined, once barriers were increasingly removed.

    Although I do argue for the primacy of mathematical over verbal ability, predicting that the Anglosphere will remain the overall leader in the life sciences and medicine isn't exactly an insignificant thing.

    I do think that hardware trumps software and that manufacturing trumps services, but that's for a uh follow-up post perhaps.

    You describe my article as mythology written for the purposes of validation, but I mostly see myself as making a relatively conservative set of predictions rooted in HBD and backed up by clearly observable data points, such as the Leiden Rankings I cited, etc.

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  99. j2 says:

    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

    What I mean is that:
    If Chinese government invests on scientific achievements on certain fields, they can expect results on those fields. They have money, they can do it. Europeans currently cannot do the same as they do not have so much money since their companies invested in the East where work was cheaper.

    There is no fundamental identity between the fields that a government decides to support and the IQ profile of the people. From every people with over 1 million population you can find talents to make high level scientific work if you can give them salary and time to do them. So, if you have lots of money and want a specific scientific field to the top level, you can do it, just like you can do it in sport. Take any sport, invest on it, you will find the talents if you offer them jobs, and then the sport goes up.

    It is also not at all clear how much of the IQ profile (verbal vs. visual-spatial) is genetic and how much it depends on developing those skills. As Eastern Asians are more introverted, they have less social communication and develop lower verbal skills. That does not necessarily mean that their genetic verbal IQ is lower, only that for genetic non-IQ related reason (introversion) they develop verbal skills less and spatial skills more.

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Sure so there are two lines of argumentation. One suggests that historically contingent institutional factors heavily influence a group of people in terms of what they choose to specialize in. The other line of reasoning states that sans obvious barriers like a Cultural Revolution, people inevitably end up gravitating towards what they have a natural affinity for. It's your standard arrow of causation question. Was Africa poor because it was colonized or was the reason that Africa was colonized to begin with because it was poor and didn't have its act together.

    I think the former line of reasoning may have been more valid before the modern era. My argument is that increasingly we're beginning to see people gravitate towards what they're naturally good at!

    , @RudyM
    It's news to me that introversion correlates with weaker verbal skills. Why so many exceptions among writers?
    , @Dmitry

    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

     

    Many (or even most) of the best scientists from the rest of the world (non-US), are working in US universities anyway. The simple result of salary disparity which is allowing US universities to suck up talent from the rest of the world.
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  100. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    We don’t need “optimal results” my friend. Technology is overrated.


     

    Anything is possible on Flat Earth.

    Indeed, even apartments are unnecessary because they need technology to build. This is an exceedingly pointless discussion clearly being done on the "internet", which is also overrated and unneeded.

    You don’t have Twinkie’s IQ, but you are smart enough to understand the point.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    "You and him fight" only work on the simple-minded.
    , @Truth
    Well I think he claims a 160
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  101. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts
    Good stuff!

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You've save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.

    BTW, for Feynman fans there's nothing better than his video, on YouTube, Los Alamos From Below. Long and wonderful, it introduces all the giants of 20th century physics through a bright kid's eyes.

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.

    I wonder if this is due to the difficulty of the Chinese writing system? Taiwan also scored near China in reading, yet Korea and Japan scored higher, and Singapore and Hong Kong were the two highest scoring countries.

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    • Replies: @TT


    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.
     
    I wonder if this is due to the difficulty of the Chinese writing system? Taiwan also scored near China in reading, yet Korea and Japan scored higher, and Singapore and Hong Kong were the two highest scoring countries.
     
    The Chinese almost read a foreign language (English) as bad as American...LOL. Shanghai actually scored No.1(2010) & likely again 2015, but after join up with other provinces, China rating goes down near US. Another factor quoted was the test conducted with computer instead of writen paper, some rural students aren't acquainted/ experienced with computer.

    And majority Chinese ethnic Singapore & HK(China) beat all Englishing speaking natives, even Taiwan & Macau, Japan, Korea, EU are above US & UK. Then the Chinese & East Asians Maths & Science are mile ahead. The Chinese & East Asians must have cheated. The EU must have cheated. So Mr Roberts so kind must ask OECD to investigate.

    https://www.tes.com/sites/default/files/pisa_reading_corrected.png
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  102. J.Ross says: • Website

    You are corrrect that trying to attribute all East Asian quantitative test success to cheating is wrongheaded. You are wasting your time if you think nobody knows about the normality of cheating amd dishonesty in East Asian culture, to include numerous anecdotes and proverbs about top-level highly educated figures placing ends above means. This accusation cannot be banished by refining the understanding of HBD concepts because it is a cultural and verbal matter.
    I suggest you read some Hemingway for style guidance.
    Other than that, this was a very nice column with a legitimate argument with clear evidence.

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  103. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @lavoisier
    Very interesting perspective and probably true.

    And what about creativity? Novelty? Any split there with mathematical versus verbal ability?

    Given the clear ascendancy of an Asian technical elite today what is the explanation for scientific creativity and innovation historically being almost exclusively a Western creation?

    And what about creativity? Novelty? Any split there with mathematical versus verbal ability?

    Does anyone know if creativity is related to the personality trait “openness to experience”? Off-hand, I assume people of Euro descent score higher in that than do people of E. Asian descent. If so, could “openness to experience” also be related to Europeans’ love affair with mass immigration, LGBT, and other pathologies in the West?

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  104. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Dwright
    Still doesn’t explain why asians are such poor drivers. Over analytical?

    I suspect it could have to do with myopia. But I think they don’t necessarily cause more accidents. So, I guess, bad but relatively safe drivers?:
    [...]
    ETHNICITY PLAYS ROLE IN VISION PROBLEMS, RESEARCH SUGGESTS

    In this study, 18.5 percent of the Asian children were nearsighted — thats more than four times the number of nearsighted white children (4.4 percent); three times the number of [near]sighted African American children (6.6 percent); and one-and-a-half times the number of nearsighted Hispanic children (13.2 percent.)

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/kat-chow-on-npr-andrew-sullivans-model-minority-myth-ignores-poverty-of-bhutanese-americans/#comment-1842990

    Relationship between night myopia and night-time motor vehicle accidents

    There was no statistically significant difference between these drivers and the rest of the group in the results of the visual complaints questionnaire, or in the number of accidents occurring during the day. However, drivers with a myopic shift >0.75 D were involved in more accidents at night than the rest of the group (p¼ 0.044).
    Conclusions:
    In this study population, drivers with night myopia of >0.75 D were more likely to be involved in night-time accidents. This may imply that selected groups of drivers should be examined for night myopia.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0420.2006.00875.x/pdf

    Vision and Driving

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2975746/

    Many studies have converged in indicating that visual acuity is, at best, very weakly linked to driver safety (i.e., collision involvement) and thus is a poor screening test for identifying drivers who are at-risk for future crash involvement. In contrast, it is clear that visual acuity is related to certain aspects of driving performance (e.g., road sign recognition).

    Study finds causes of high rate of myopia among Asian school-leavers

    A new study has found that up to 90 per cent of school-leavers in Asia’s major cities are suffering from myopia, or short-sightedness. Of these affected, scientists said that 10 to 20 per cent had a condition called high myopia, which can lead to blindness. The study, published in The Lancet medical journal, linked the eye damage with the long hours spent by Asian students studying as well as the lack of outdoor light.

    Hasidim believe that casual time outdoors exposes them to the temptations of the streets, not the least of which are skimpily dressed New Yorkers, said Alexander Rapaport, a Hasid who runs the Masbia soup kitchens in Brooklyn and Queens.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/hasidic-jews-in-heavy-dress-bear-up-in-summer.html

    The influence of study habits on myopia in Jewish teenagers.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8254449 Zylbermann et al. (1993)

    We found a statistically significant higher prevalence and degree of myopia in a group of 193 Orthodox Jewish male students who differed from the rest in their study habits.

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/judeo-centrism-myths-and-mania/#comment-1849454

    So why are we such crashingly bad drivers?

    Of course, criticising female drivers – both anecdotally and scientifically – is nothing new. Countless pieces of research testify to the fact that when it comes to factors such as navigation and spatial awareness, we are less capable than men.

    But none of these studies have yet to factor in a variable that takes bad female driving to another level entirely: being Jewish. This piece of research is all mine – though I admit empirical evidence is purely anecdotal. But believe me, it’s enough.

    https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/so-why-are-we-such-crashingly-bad-drivers-1.65494

    Israel: Welcome to the land of criminals and bad drivers

    The US underpins Israel’s unenviable record of traffic accidents by warning – accurately – that “aggressive driving is commonplace and that many drivers fail to maintain safe following distances or signal before changing lanes…” Australia warns that residents “may stone your car” if you drive it into ultra-orthodox Jewish neighbourhoods during the Sabbath.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-welcome-to-the-land-of-criminals-and-bad-drivers-8101165.html

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  105. @Daniel Chieh
    Very poorly, but is being promoted by other members of the conspiracy that claim that Earth is not actually flat!

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/968608879914270721?lang=en

    A short distance from my office, road crews have been continuously tearing up and re-patching the same intersection for the last 10 years. I kid you not. I have no idea what they’re doing there but whatever it is, it took less time to put a man on the Moon. The difference between the USA and China c. 2018, summed up right there

    The only consolation is that back in 2010 the road crews were uniformly Mexican. Now they are almost all White.

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    • Replies: @Truth

    . I have no idea what they’re doing there but whatever it is, it took less time to put a man on the Moon
     
    .

    It's taken 6,000 years to do that, and we ain't done it yet.
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  106. Yan Shen says:
    @niteranger
    An excellent article and well researched. I agree with many conclusions, however, my first problem is with your statement about SATs not being compromised. In high school my friend wanted to go to West Point. He had 815 on his SATs. This was many years ago, not the SATs of today. He went to a military prep school for a year. He raised his SATs to 1250. He made it to West Point and is now a Colonel.

    In the same class the number one student, a female couldn't get 800 on the SATs. She just couldn't take the test and would get so tense she just would be in tears. She had straight A's in everything but SAT test phobia. She became a doctor.

    One of my fishing buddies is a retired guidance counselor. He takes top notch students and teaches them how to take the SATs and raise their scores. It works for him. A male student two years ahead of me in high school missed only one question on his SATs. He is now in a mental institution.

    The next problem I have is the number of papers published as criterion for excellence. You can publish anything if you have the money. Computer software is publishing fake articles:https://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2014/feb/26/how-computer-generated-fake-papers-flooding-academia. Most of the papers published today are a joke and most of the people writing them don't understand the statistics they use. Taleb has pointed this out many times.

    You should also check out the number of papers retracted. I believe the Asian countries have some of the highest numbers in science.

    Your idea that because you are great in one area does not mean that you'll be great or even competent in another discipline is well established in my estimation. Sir Isaac Newton was a brilliant physicist but had a child like understanding of biology and was a closet alchemist. There was a famous chemist who won the Nobel Prize years ago who didn't understand basic ecology and made a number stupid statements that left people wondering how he got the Nobel Prize (can't remember his name). I knew a woman who made her living editing and revising books on engineering. She thought engineers were the worse writers in the world.

    Finally, perhaps the worse offenders are those in the humanities and social sciences (these are not sciences; just because you quantify something doesn't make it better especially if it's garbage to begin with). You can watch these people on tv, the web and in books trying to write, interpret, and pontificate on stuff they know nothing about. The really sad part is the talking head on the likes of CNN, MSNBC, ABC or any other network who don't realize that these people are not real scientists and are dead wrong on just about everything they say.

    Overall this is a very good article and I thank you for writing it.

    (I am having problems with editing tonight with the website; it keeps jumping around ; it could be my browser; also last night I got some strange code at the top of the page)

    The Leiden rankings are based on total number of top 10% cited papers published, but yes this is still to some extent a measure of quantity given that typically East Asian universities have a lower percentage of all published papers which end up in the top 10%.

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  107. Yan Shen says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)
     
    While I agree that there, basically, are different "mathematical intelligences", I think it is too early to say anything significant re east Asian accomplishments in math; as for Fields medals, we'll have to see what happens in next 20-30 years.

    And, by the way, your thoughtful reference to Poincare, Hadamard (and we could add most of the greats from Descartes on) shows that "math intelligence" is a rough & perhaps too contradictory a concept.

    Perhaps "intelligence" is too narrow. What about creativity, imagination, "visual thinking", non-discursive "thinking" a la Plotinus (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=5BBF8C5AE74B97F18D4379819A512F84)?

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions.
     
    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    The same with literature- poetry is not translatable, while there are no Asian equivalents to universality of Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Proust.

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage.
     
    This is partly true, but I haven't seen any progress in applying, say, acupuncture to modern medicine. In fact, it was seen to be a monumental placebo in some instances: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/ , http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

    Regarding Chinese philosophy, Hegel famously commented that Confucius was “only a man who has a certain amount of practical and worldly wisdom- one with whom there is no speculative philosophy”, suggesting that perhaps it would’ve been better for his reputation if his teachings had never been translated to begin with. Perhaps this isn’t uh too surprising given that even by Western standards Hegel was considered a notoriously difficult to read meta-physician…

    https://books.google.com/books?id=bATIDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hegel+confucius+no+speculative+philosophy&source=bl&ots=3hBO6SX8V6&sig=-lmbweZxGQqfkQ0-DsEADs5kBSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDo92Lh9bZAhUhqFQKHf9rAusQ6AEISjAG#v=onepage&q=hegel%20confucius%20no%20speculative%20philosophy&f=false

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    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    I don't know whether you read it (at least partially), but I would recommend to anyone interested in Chinese thought monumental Wing Tsit Chan's survey: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=A13880637E7E9F98EF712AE179E38891

    I know there are newer expositions (Van Norden etc), but this classic from 1960s remains my favorite.
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  108. TT says:
    @Godfree Roberts
    Good stuff!

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You've save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.

    BTW, for Feynman fans there's nothing better than his video, on YouTube, Los Alamos From Below. Long and wonderful, it introduces all the giants of 20th century physics through a bright kid's eyes.
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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    There's hardly any even most basic maths in the supposed 'maths' PISA exams. The whole thing is a bit of a joke.
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  109. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Bardon Kaldian
    A very good article (although, it could be shorter) & along the lines of what I've been thinking all the time.

    Just, I think that author has conflated various types of intelligences, re fields he was writing about. Or perhaps we need imagination or other term & intelligence is not enough?

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, "the same" (I won't even address the field of experimental physics). History has shown us that most important physicists in past 300 years were not nearly as good in mathematics & vice versa. For example, Einstein, who is one of 3-4 greatest physicists in history, has not possessed comparable mathematical abilities. Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_priority_dispute#General_relativity_3 ) but was realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein's primacy.

    Feynman in one of the examples in the article. As I recall, he said something like: " Physics is to mathematics what is sex to masturbation." Clearly, and this is a position of most physicists- I am a theoretical physicist- we frequently treat our mathematical friends condescendingly.

    2. what about different areas of mathematics? Isn't it possible, or probable, that different types of intelligences would produce great achievers in number theory, but not in topology? Or take other math areas.

    3. engineering, along with computer science, seems to me altogether different set of fields.

    Be as it may, this is one of rare & I hope fecund articles that will have replaced rather dull idolization of fossilized IQ debate.

    A lot of debate over whether Einstein deserves primary credit for either special or general relativity.

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  110. Yan Shen says:
    @j2
    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

    What I mean is that:
    If Chinese government invests on scientific achievements on certain fields, they can expect results on those fields. They have money, they can do it. Europeans currently cannot do the same as they do not have so much money since their companies invested in the East where work was cheaper.

    There is no fundamental identity between the fields that a government decides to support and the IQ profile of the people. From every people with over 1 million population you can find talents to make high level scientific work if you can give them salary and time to do them. So, if you have lots of money and want a specific scientific field to the top level, you can do it, just like you can do it in sport. Take any sport, invest on it, you will find the talents if you offer them jobs, and then the sport goes up.

    It is also not at all clear how much of the IQ profile (verbal vs. visual-spatial) is genetic and how much it depends on developing those skills. As Eastern Asians are more introverted, they have less social communication and develop lower verbal skills. That does not necessarily mean that their genetic verbal IQ is lower, only that for genetic non-IQ related reason (introversion) they develop verbal skills less and spatial skills more.

    Sure so there are two lines of argumentation. One suggests that historically contingent institutional factors heavily influence a group of people in terms of what they choose to specialize in. The other line of reasoning states that sans obvious barriers like a Cultural Revolution, people inevitably end up gravitating towards what they have a natural affinity for. It’s your standard arrow of causation question. Was Africa poor because it was colonized or was the reason that Africa was colonized to begin with because it was poor and didn’t have its act together.

    I think the former line of reasoning may have been more valid before the modern era. My argument is that increasingly we’re beginning to see people gravitate towards what they’re naturally good at!

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    • Replies: @j2
    You write a generic answer missing both of my points, but let me take only the second.

    My second point was: If we talk about IQ profile, it may be a result of character or other issues, which are largely genetically determined, but are not IQ related.

    That is, Africans, Jews and probably Mediterraneans have stronger verbal IQ than spatial IQ.
    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while
    people of the North are more introverted.

    What supports this is that only 4-5% of IQ variation has so far been explained by IQ genes, while heritability is 40-80%. So, it may not be direct heritability of IQ but heritability of traits leading to IQ. Likewise, IQ is positively correlated with the brain size, but only weakly: women have much smaller brains and almost the same IQ. This is understandable if most of heritable IQ is not directly inherited by IQ genes.

    This makes a difference, because what you say are the natural strengths are natural strengths only in the situation as it is now. Chinese, of Finns, may actually have as high verbal IQ as Mediterraneas, but it cannot be expressed in the same way. It may be possible to express it in another way. To make this clearer: you may not be able to express verbal IQ in oral tasks and yet manage in written, it is the same IQ but not the same expression.

    I do not think the world will develop to the direction you suggest: that East Asians will dominate mathematical topics and South Asians (is it Jews?) dominate verbal topics. What we see now is not a natural development. It is globalization run by a small group of people who want to reach certain goals. They have to be stopped at some point. Then the world develops differently. I think it will be more local, less global. If more local, there is less monopolization of topics.
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  111. TT says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Mathematically adept nerds are the real value creators, while their more extroverted, socially dominant, and verbally glib counterparts transfer that underlying value to themselves as business executives. Engineers are great at creating things for value for others to consume. Lawyers and businessmen on the other hand seem mostly proficient at extracting wealth created by others for themselves.
     
    A fantastic piece ... until the above. Chalk it up to high math/spatial ability and lack of verbal reasoning ability.

    A brilliant formula or tech is of no value (economically) until somebody sees a commercial application. Eg - Xerox PARC had GUI but no idea what to do with it until a high verbal IQ Lebanese American white dude said, “I can change the world with this shit!” Or the Chinese invention of gunpowder which they couldn’t conceive a better purpose for than making pretty colorful lights. We all know what Europeans did with that idea. The obverse correlary is the endlessly Jewish debated idea of Marxism which East Asians forgot to debate and proceeded to exterminate 50,000,000 of their own people. Or the endlessly Jewish debated idea of “diversity” which non-Jewish Europeans have maniacally adopted and appear to be using to genocide themselves.

    Having a brilliant idea, whether mathematically or verbally based, is of no value unless thoroughly debated and then marketed (ie “tech transfer”). THIS is the real lesson HBD can teach us isn’t it?

    Or the Chinese invention of gunpowder which they couldn’t conceive a better purpose for than making pretty colorful lights.

    Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?

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    • Replies: @JSM

    but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment.
     
    Right. We used that gunpowder to clear out the Indians so we could build a First World country for the Chinese to move into and then presume to tell us what.
    , @Realist
    "Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?"

    Gunpowder hasn't been used as a practical explosive for over one hundred years.

    "....greedy West stolen it to..."

    What the hell is that?
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  112. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @jim jones
    We should have a list of all the things China failed to invent:

    Internal combustion engine
    The Transistor
    Antibiotics
    The Calculus
    The jet engine
    Polymers
    Nuclear fission and fusion
    Nitrogen fertilizers
    Vaccines
    Television
    Radio

    Yeh, you forget all the best war machines for mass killing & destruction of innocents. Moderate good Terrorists..false flags 911, presstitute fake news propaganda machines, financial scam,….Monsanto’s herbicide & GMO toxic food, Orange agent, Aids, …. What a wonder endless list of invention for mankind. Still got a nuclear fission & fusion bombs for fireworks to go with, so proud for the civilization improvements.

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    • Replies: @Realist
    Aids was invented???
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  113. j2 says:
    @Yan Shen
    Sure so there are two lines of argumentation. One suggests that historically contingent institutional factors heavily influence a group of people in terms of what they choose to specialize in. The other line of reasoning states that sans obvious barriers like a Cultural Revolution, people inevitably end up gravitating towards what they have a natural affinity for. It's your standard arrow of causation question. Was Africa poor because it was colonized or was the reason that Africa was colonized to begin with because it was poor and didn't have its act together.

    I think the former line of reasoning may have been more valid before the modern era. My argument is that increasingly we're beginning to see people gravitate towards what they're naturally good at!

    You write a generic answer missing both of my points, but let me take only the second.

    My second point was: If we talk about IQ profile, it may be a result of character or other issues, which are largely genetically determined, but are not IQ related.

    That is, Africans, Jews and probably Mediterraneans have stronger verbal IQ than spatial IQ.
    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while
    people of the North are more introverted.

    What supports this is that only 4-5% of IQ variation has so far been explained by IQ genes, while heritability is 40-80%. So, it may not be direct heritability of IQ but heritability of traits leading to IQ. Likewise, IQ is positively correlated with the brain size, but only weakly: women have much smaller brains and almost the same IQ. This is understandable if most of heritable IQ is not directly inherited by IQ genes.

    This makes a difference, because what you say are the natural strengths are natural strengths only in the situation as it is now. Chinese, of Finns, may actually have as high verbal IQ as Mediterraneas, but it cannot be expressed in the same way. It may be possible to express it in another way. To make this clearer: you may not be able to express verbal IQ in oral tasks and yet manage in written, it is the same IQ but not the same expression.

    I do not think the world will develop to the direction you suggest: that East Asians will dominate mathematical topics and South Asians (is it Jews?) dominate verbal topics. What we see now is not a natural development. It is globalization run by a small group of people who want to reach certain goals. They have to be stopped at some point. Then the world develops differently. I think it will be more local, less global. If more local, there is less monopolization of topics.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while
     
    This comment reaches a level of ridiculousness and reductio ad absurdum, where reality more or less completely disproves the generalizations. It is not difficult to point out that Northern Europe has produced by far the greatest and most complex works of literature in human history, with the pinnacle achieved in Russian language - and that probably East Asia is not far behind (Tale of Genji, written by a Japanese noblewoman in 11th century, is considered the world's first novel). While in visual/spatial arts, the most successful and high-achieving countries were those three Latin countries of Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, and France).
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  114. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    East Asians know what fill their stomach. Get thing done, and sell it for something in return. So they go for what required for manufacturing practical thing.

    West whites after filling their stomach, spent their time day dreaming, conspire, plan, talking, trying to sell ideas. They come out with financial investment, Wall Street, banking, facebook, Google…leaving their manufacturing in dust.

    We shall see who go hungry eventually.

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  115. I am unsure that Feynman’s (or other lopsided geniuses’) lack of verbal competence relative to his scientific competence is due to intelligence imbalance per se’. In Feynman’s case, I believe he was just completely uninterested in the verbal half of intelligence/learning. I think he spent 99% or so of his waking hours, and alot of the non-waking hours, thinking about math and physics problems. His divorce from his 2nd wife was allegedly due to this trait, at least in large part. Even pounding on a drum was a scientific endeavor to him.

    OTOH, his colloquial writings and speeches were accessible and entertaining, surely showing some verbal ability.

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  116. TT says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)
    It was not IQ which won the west this world, it was boldness of the spirit of adventure which can't be measured in any test. Who would want to be Columbus, or Magellan, oceans are terrifying a taste of the infinity we live in - yet they sailed through these navigators of the infinite - which no other culture did - these Chinese bots didn't even discover the giant continent sized country Australia - right under there asses - yet it took a Captain Cook to discover something under this clone army asses.

    Who would want to be Columbus, or Magellan, oceans are terrifying a taste of the infinity we live in – yet they sailed through these navigators of the infinite – which no other culture did – these Chinese bots didn’t even discover the giant continent sized country Australia – right under there asses – yet it took a Captain Cook to discover something under this clone army asses.

    Using the map drawn by Ming Dynasty Zhenghe, Columbus, Magenan navigated the oceans, and Cook discovered the land shown in the ancient map. There, the Anglosaxon whites scream, we found it, the Chinese map is correct. Off they load their criminals there, killing the native aborigines like pests and colonized the continent with criminals. They found the mongrel dogs left by Zhenghe for probing the swarmy land toxic gas, gave it a mighty name Tasmania Tiger,..bark bark..their tiger roar.

    Now the jackal is proudly howling here, we found it, we found it, the Chinese map is correct. Right under their ass we stole it from the aborigines that they left them in peace for many hundreds years. Our DNA is Viking, wherever we landed, blood flow, fire burnt, men we killed, women we rape, treasures we robbed, land we occupied. Howl.. howl…

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Ming Dynasty [admiral] Zhenghe ...

    Our DNA is Viking,
     

    Sadly for the great admiral and world explorer Zheng He, Chinese custom had rendered him quite unable to leave behind any trace of his DNA in Africa. Zheng He had been castrated as a boy and sold to serve as a palace eunuch.
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  117. Truth says:
    @Intelligent Dasein
    A short distance from my office, road crews have been continuously tearing up and re-patching the same intersection for the last 10 years. I kid you not. I have no idea what they're doing there but whatever it is, it took less time to put a man on the Moon. The difference between the USA and China c. 2018, summed up right there

    The only consolation is that back in 2010 the road crews were uniformly Mexican. Now they are almost all White.

    . I have no idea what they’re doing there but whatever it is, it took less time to put a man on the Moon

    .

    It’s taken 6,000 years to do that, and we ain’t done it yet.

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  118. TT says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)
    East Asians are a bunch of high IQ clones, they are the human approximation of BOTs there's no metaphysics in their souls - nothing at all - their religion which they don't now have came from India - Buddhism - which doesn't exist now - bunch of money grubbing bots they are close to being total machines - beware of these bots UNZ commenteriat. They are the closest approximation to human machines - no metaphysics in their souls.

    East Asians are a bunch of high IQ clones, they are the human approximation of BOTs there’s no metaphysics in their souls – nothing at all – their religion which they don’t now have came from India – Buddhism – which doesn’t exist now – bunch of money grubbing bots they are close to being total machines – beware of these bots UNZ commenteriat. They are the closest approximation to human machines – no metaphysics in their souls.

    When we degenerate, our IQ go subpar, we cried the better ones are Bot. Not knowing Buddhism though almost disappear in their original India land ruined by Hindu, they flourish in the world, in Buddhist countries Thailand, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Laos, and in Asia they blossom. Even western countries wise men are tasting its sweet dews. The frog below cannot taste the sweetness of flower pollens, but distant butterfly & bees come gather them.

    The jackal sore in its ass, with subpar IQ, is howling…. they are high IQ clones, we are retard… howl…howl…

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  119. Realist says:

    “Richard Feynman is legendary not only for his contributions as a theoretical physicist but also for his supposedly modest IQ of 125.”

    While an IQ of 125 may be modest for a theoretical physicist. It is certainly not modest for the general population . An IQ of 100 would be modest for the general population..

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  120. @Anonymous
    Isn't the reverse true? Vox Day acknowledges as much.

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/05/mailvox-why-do-white-women-choose-black.html


    3. Low rank white women tend to be overvalued by black men. The woman who can attract only white 3s is often able to attract black 7s. I know several black male-white female couples where the black man is significantly more attractive than the white woman. This phenomenon is also often seen in white male-Asian female couples. When a woman has the option to increase her sex rank simply by expanding the pool of acceptable men, it should come as no surprise that many elect to do so.
     
    Anyone living somewhere with a large Asian population learns to recognize the hate-fact that Asian women in these relationships generally range from ugly to remarkably ugly. Miscegenation rarely has aesthetic appeal.

    “Anyone living somewhere with a large Asian population learns to recognize the hate-fact that Asian women in these relationships generally range from ugly to remarkably ugly”

    I guess you have to tell yourself that to feel better but in fact the ugly, dorky Asian girls end up with ugly, dorky Asian guys. The hot Asian girls prefer White men.

    Agree with regard to blacks though. Only the lowest, most desperate white women go dark.

    I do see, at least where I live, quality White women with Asian guys and that’s no problem.

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    • Replies: @myself
    Asian men in Asia don't make a big deal of local Asian women who "go white."

    I think because of 2 factors:

    1) The top-tier local Asian women, like top-tier women everywhere, only want to go with the top-tier men of their own race.
    You see some good-looking local girls with white men, but the real knock-outs are always with their own kind. It's about genetic promulgation (reproductive success, not really sex) and social status for them and their kids. Since it's Asia, they naturally gravitate to their own men.

    2) Well, there's plenty more where she came from! If the white man wants some, it's not going to dent the supply one bit.
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  121. AaronB says:

    I’m just waiting for malla and denk to show up so the real entertainment can begin.

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    • Replies: @TT
    Malla dissappear for some time already, but Denk will be here soon.
    , @wayfarer
    Be careful what you wish for.

    If denk shows up to this thread, he'll own it.

    Just jokin' denk.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    You need Singh to really round out the comments, to be honest. If your posts don't go into long-winded rambles about sati and beheading infidels, really, what's the point of writing at all?
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  122. Realist says:
    @Anon
    Yeh, you forget all the best war machines for mass killing & destruction of innocents. Moderate good Terrorists..false flags 911, presstitute fake news propaganda machines, financial scam,....Monsanto's herbicide & GMO toxic food, Orange agent, Aids, .... What a wonder endless list of invention for mankind. Still got a nuclear fission & fusion bombs for fireworks to go with, so proud for the civilization improvements.

    Aids was invented???

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    • Replies: @TT
    Yes, invented by the homosexual gays of whoever want to claim Patent in West. And spread in Africa through the US vaccines program with shared needles. Brought to Asia by the West "whoremonger" & paedophiles as gifts Now marketing by US to whole world as a glorified trendy new lifestyle, LBGT for everyone including Christians & Catholics too.

    Pharmaceutical giants are laughing to the banks, who said globalization not favourable for US.
    , @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, we are reliably informed that "they wud be kangs" but for the dastardly white man and their CIA inventing AIDs etc.
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  123. Realist says:
    @bjondo
    What invented and what found?

    The only item on the list that could be considered found would be antibiotics.

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    • Replies: @TT
    Otherwise Singapore should be recognized for invented iodine as antiseptic.:)
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  124. JSM says:
    @TT

    Or the Chinese invention of gunpowder which they couldn’t conceive a better purpose for than making pretty colorful lights.
     
    Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?

    but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment.

    Right. We used that gunpowder to clear out the Indians so we could build a First World country for the Chinese to move into and then presume to tell us what.

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  125. TT says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)
     
    While I agree that there, basically, are different "mathematical intelligences", I think it is too early to say anything significant re east Asian accomplishments in math; as for Fields medals, we'll have to see what happens in next 20-30 years.

    And, by the way, your thoughtful reference to Poincare, Hadamard (and we could add most of the greats from Descartes on) shows that "math intelligence" is a rough & perhaps too contradictory a concept.

    Perhaps "intelligence" is too narrow. What about creativity, imagination, "visual thinking", non-discursive "thinking" a la Plotinus (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=5BBF8C5AE74B97F18D4379819A512F84)?

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions.
     
    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    The same with literature- poetry is not translatable, while there are no Asian equivalents to universality of Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Proust.

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage.
     
    This is partly true, but I haven't seen any progress in applying, say, acupuncture to modern medicine. In fact, it was seen to be a monumental placebo in some instances: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/ , http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    Never able to understand a single word of Chinese or Indian languages and their thoughts, the fool declared their 5,000yrs civilization simply cannot withstand the comparison with our few hundred years Western tradition. See, our Effel tower is taller than the Egyptian pyramids, our Trumps border wall will be longer than the China Great Wall, our White House is more modern than India Taj Maha.

    What is Yiching, Taoism, Taodejing, Confucianism, Buddhism, Sun Tze Arts of War, Houheixue, Mengzi, Baijia, …. Vedas, Ayurveda, Hinduism, India philosophy, Buddhism,…i know not a single but it must be worst than what i can read in English Western books. Even thousands year old of Chinese astrology record that shown solar system earth is round & revolving around the sun, cannot compare with our great Galileo discovery that got himself killed.

    We alone are the most majestic, if we cover our own eyes no one can see us.

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    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    cannot compare with our great Galileo discovery that got himself killed.
     
    You may wish to inform yourself concerning certain facts of Galileo's trial and house arrest, beginning with 1) He was never killed.

    You truly are a butt-picking idiot, whoever you are. And yes, Western philosophy has a style history and a depth of expression and creative force to which the East can show no parallel. There really isn't anything wrong with admitting this, so your attempt to obscure this rather obvious point does not reflect very well upon you.
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  126. TT says:
    @AaronB
    I'm just waiting for malla and denk to show up so the real entertainment can begin.

    Malla dissappear for some time already, but Denk will be here soon.

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    • Replies: @denk
    Im sojourning to my meeting with zhou gong now.

    Barring unforeseen circumstances, might be back here, as spectator perhaps,

    hhhhhh
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  127. Realist says:
    @TT

    Or the Chinese invention of gunpowder which they couldn’t conceive a better purpose for than making pretty colorful lights.
     
    Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?

    “Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?”

    Gunpowder hasn’t been used as a practical explosive for over one hundred years.

    “….greedy West stolen it to…”

    What the hell is that?

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    • Replies: @TT
    Actually ancient China already used gun powder for full range of weapons including flamethrowers, rockets, bombs, and mines, before inventing guns as a projectile weapon. But Chinese used it for defending against Mongols. Mongols used it to invade Japan. European used it to invade China & the world.

    Tell that to stan d mute, troll always used funny handle.

    Wikipedia

    The Chinese "Wu Ching Tsung Yao", written by Tseng Kung-Liang in 1044, provides encyclopedia references to a variety of mixtures which included petrochemicals, as well as garlic and honey. A slow match for flame throwing mechanisms using the siphon principle and for fireworks and rockets are mentioned. Academics argue the Chinese wasted little time in applying gunpowder to warfare, and they produced a variety of gunpowder weapons, including flamethrowers, rockets, bombs, and mines, before inventing guns as a projectile weapon.[21]
     
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  128. RudyM says:
    @j2
    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

    What I mean is that:
    If Chinese government invests on scientific achievements on certain fields, they can expect results on those fields. They have money, they can do it. Europeans currently cannot do the same as they do not have so much money since their companies invested in the East where work was cheaper.

    There is no fundamental identity between the fields that a government decides to support and the IQ profile of the people. From every people with over 1 million population you can find talents to make high level scientific work if you can give them salary and time to do them. So, if you have lots of money and want a specific scientific field to the top level, you can do it, just like you can do it in sport. Take any sport, invest on it, you will find the talents if you offer them jobs, and then the sport goes up.

    It is also not at all clear how much of the IQ profile (verbal vs. visual-spatial) is genetic and how much it depends on developing those skills. As Eastern Asians are more introverted, they have less social communication and develop lower verbal skills. That does not necessarily mean that their genetic verbal IQ is lower, only that for genetic non-IQ related reason (introversion) they develop verbal skills less and spatial skills more.

    It’s news to me that introversion correlates with weaker verbal skills. Why so many exceptions among writers?

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    • Replies: @j2
    I see you are a bit sceptical, so let's refer to James Thomson from the unz review
    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lapps-finns-cold-winters-and/
    "These data suggest that the Sámi have the same profile that most people of the world have, i.e., they perform better on spatial than on verbal tests relative to the Caucasoid norm. Both groups are stronger on non-verbal than verbal skills, which might be expected of hunters searching for game in the landscape."

    You can find by a small literature search confirmation that Blacks and Jews have stronger verbal IQ and weaker spatial IQ. I think is is true to descendants of Anatolian farmers and therefore in the Mediterranean countries. Above you have confirmation that in the North spatial IQ is stronger than verbal. Thomson finds this IQ profile the most common in the world, as East Asians also have this profile.

    There is no question of the fact that East Asians and North Europeans are more introverted, so there is then the correlation. A correlation does not need to mean causation, but in this case there may be a causal connection.

    Some commentary claimed that i make an absurd reasoning and argued, like this one, that verbal IQ of Northern Europeans cannot be lower than spatial since there are so many good writers from these
    populations. That does not invalidate the well-known fact of the IQ profile.

    Introverts make both good writers and good scientists. Even if the average IQ is more tilted to spatial, it does not mean that you cannot find verbally talented people from those countries. Verbal IQ increases from reading, not only from speaking, so you may find that many writers are introverts and have high verbal IQ.

    Counting literary achievements it may look like Northern Europe and East Asia have especially high verbal IQ, but it is a proven fact that these populations have in average weaker verbal IQ than spatial IQ. The verbal IQ is still high, as these populations have high IQ, but exceptional literary achievements do not imply anything of the average verbal IQ in the population.

    Especially, it does not invalidate the proposed argument (not proven) that the average verbal IQ may be lower because of introverted culture.

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  129. wayfarer says:
    @AaronB
    I'm just waiting for malla and denk to show up so the real entertainment can begin.

    Be careful what you wish for.

    If denk shows up to this thread, he’ll own it.

    Just jokin’ denk.

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  130. @Truth
    You don't have Twinkie's IQ, but you are smart enough to understand the point.

    “You and him fight” only work on the simple-minded.

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  131. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    A very good article (although, it could be shorter) & along the lines of what I've been thinking all the time.

    Just, I think that author has conflated various types of intelligences, re fields he was writing about. Or perhaps we need imagination or other term & intelligence is not enough?

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, "the same" (I won't even address the field of experimental physics). History has shown us that most important physicists in past 300 years were not nearly as good in mathematics & vice versa. For example, Einstein, who is one of 3-4 greatest physicists in history, has not possessed comparable mathematical abilities. Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_priority_dispute#General_relativity_3 ) but was realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein's primacy.

    Feynman in one of the examples in the article. As I recall, he said something like: " Physics is to mathematics what is sex to masturbation." Clearly, and this is a position of most physicists- I am a theoretical physicist- we frequently treat our mathematical friends condescendingly.

    2. what about different areas of mathematics? Isn't it possible, or probable, that different types of intelligences would produce great achievers in number theory, but not in topology? Or take other math areas.

    3. engineering, along with computer science, seems to me altogether different set of fields.

    Be as it may, this is one of rare & I hope fecund articles that will have replaced rather dull idolization of fossilized IQ debate.

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, “the same” (I won’t even address the field of experimental physics).

    In very broad and generalization sense – it is usually said that you have to be a lot smarter or more talented to reach the same professional level in theoretical physics, than in most every other fields of mathematics. And with my very brief, superficial, but painful, acquaintance with subject (physics), I can believe these sayings.

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  132. @Truth
    Tillie disagrees!

    Exactly!!! Alden is a degenerate RCCer. No Asians/blacks/Jews in the West. We Caucasians/Europeans did just fine without these races.

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  133. Dmitry says:
    @TT
    https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/pisa-a-glance-global-education-rankings-science-maths-and-reading?amp

    https://www.tes.com/sites/default/files/pisa_reading_corrected.png

    There’s hardly any even most basic maths in the supposed ‘maths’ PISA exams. The whole thing is a bit of a joke.

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    • Replies: @TT
    Who cares, get the score, joint the best Ivy, yoo... the future is bright & life is good. Green card is automatic, if not, a good research job back home or anywhere your choice. If Pisa isn't working, these students with high pisa score won't graduate from Ivry with top result.

    See how Spore, HK, Asians perfected the scoring? A test skewed towards Western education system, sure OECD can do better than non English native Asian. Alas...sinking year after year, so they import more refugees as remedy.

    https://www.tes.com/sites/default/files/pisa_maths_top_30.png

    https://www.tes.com/sites/default/files/pisa_science_top_30.png
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  134. Dmitry says:
    @j2
    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

    What I mean is that:
    If Chinese government invests on scientific achievements on certain fields, they can expect results on those fields. They have money, they can do it. Europeans currently cannot do the same as they do not have so much money since their companies invested in the East where work was cheaper.

    There is no fundamental identity between the fields that a government decides to support and the IQ profile of the people. From every people with over 1 million population you can find talents to make high level scientific work if you can give them salary and time to do them. So, if you have lots of money and want a specific scientific field to the top level, you can do it, just like you can do it in sport. Take any sport, invest on it, you will find the talents if you offer them jobs, and then the sport goes up.

    It is also not at all clear how much of the IQ profile (verbal vs. visual-spatial) is genetic and how much it depends on developing those skills. As Eastern Asians are more introverted, they have less social communication and develop lower verbal skills. That does not necessarily mean that their genetic verbal IQ is lower, only that for genetic non-IQ related reason (introversion) they develop verbal skills less and spatial skills more.

    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

    Many (or even most) of the best scientists from the rest of the world (non-US), are working in US universities anyway. The simple result of salary disparity which is allowing US universities to suck up talent from the rest of the world.

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    • Replies: @TT
    Also the available research fund, best facilities, and available peer talents that make the best genius able to fulfil his dream research.

    After East Asia join up and provide better conditions, then the wave will roll back. The research fund is drying up in US, too much competition for too little fund. China is providing lavishly, so go the Austrian Quantum technology to China.
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  135. TT says:
    @anonymous

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.
     
    I wonder if this is due to the difficulty of the Chinese writing system? Taiwan also scored near China in reading, yet Korea and Japan scored higher, and Singapore and Hong Kong were the two highest scoring countries.

    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.

    I wonder if this is due to the difficulty of the Chinese writing system? Taiwan also scored near China in reading, yet Korea and Japan scored higher, and Singapore and Hong Kong were the two highest scoring countries.

    The Chinese almost read a foreign language (English) as bad as American…LOL. Shanghai actually scored No.1(2010) & likely again 2015, but after join up with other provinces, China rating goes down near US. Another factor quoted was the test conducted with computer instead of writen paper, some rural students aren’t acquainted/ experienced with computer.

    And majority Chinese ethnic Singapore & HK(China) beat all Englishing speaking natives, even Taiwan & Macau, Japan, Korea, EU are above US & UK. Then the Chinese & East Asians Maths & Science are mile ahead. The Chinese & East Asians must have cheated. The EU must have cheated. So Mr Roberts so kind must ask OECD to investigate.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    US PISA Reading 2015

    https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_4f.asp

    Whites: 526
    Asians: 527

    US PISA Reading 2012

    https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2012/pisa2012highlights_5e_1.asp

    Whites: 519
    Asians: 550

    Asians don't really seem to be at a disadvantage relative to whites on the reading test.
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  136. @anonymous
    Yan, I want to see data from IQ tests performed in the last ten years, broken down by religion: Hindu, Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. (Esp. for young adults 18-30)

    Does this data exist, and how could it be found?
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  137. TT says:
    @Realist
    The only item on the list that could be considered found would be antibiotics.

    Otherwise Singapore should be recognized for invented iodine as antiseptic.:)

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  138. Dmitry says:
    @j2
    You write a generic answer missing both of my points, but let me take only the second.

    My second point was: If we talk about IQ profile, it may be a result of character or other issues, which are largely genetically determined, but are not IQ related.

    That is, Africans, Jews and probably Mediterraneans have stronger verbal IQ than spatial IQ.
    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while
    people of the North are more introverted.

    What supports this is that only 4-5% of IQ variation has so far been explained by IQ genes, while heritability is 40-80%. So, it may not be direct heritability of IQ but heritability of traits leading to IQ. Likewise, IQ is positively correlated with the brain size, but only weakly: women have much smaller brains and almost the same IQ. This is understandable if most of heritable IQ is not directly inherited by IQ genes.

    This makes a difference, because what you say are the natural strengths are natural strengths only in the situation as it is now. Chinese, of Finns, may actually have as high verbal IQ as Mediterraneas, but it cannot be expressed in the same way. It may be possible to express it in another way. To make this clearer: you may not be able to express verbal IQ in oral tasks and yet manage in written, it is the same IQ but not the same expression.

    I do not think the world will develop to the direction you suggest: that East Asians will dominate mathematical topics and South Asians (is it Jews?) dominate verbal topics. What we see now is not a natural development. It is globalization run by a small group of people who want to reach certain goals. They have to be stopped at some point. Then the world develops differently. I think it will be more local, less global. If more local, there is less monopolization of topics.

    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while

    This comment reaches a level of ridiculousness and reductio ad absurdum, where reality more or less completely disproves the generalizations. It is not difficult to point out that Northern Europe has produced by far the greatest and most complex works of literature in human history, with the pinnacle achieved in Russian language – and that probably East Asia is not far behind (Tale of Genji, written by a Japanese noblewoman in 11th century, is considered the world’s first novel). While in visual/spatial arts, the most successful and high-achieving countries were those three Latin countries of Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, and France).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    This comment reaches a level of ridiculousness and reductio ad absurdum, where reality more or less completely disproves the generalizations.
     
    To be honest, this is the way that I often feel about IQ arguments in general. The more that I study about the brain, the more silly it seems that a simple number be more than the most basic measurement of overall ability.
    , @j2
    You may not mean the same population when you refer to Northern Europe. Russia is large and only the upper part is Northern Europe. I mean the most northern Europe and there the IQ profile is what I said it is. It is not ridiculous and ad absurdum, but a a fact known from IQ tests. Indeed, Russians from Carelia are genetically similar to the most northern European people and probably have similar IQ profile.

    There is no direct connection between average IQ profile of a population and exceptional achievements of the population.

    For more details read what I wrote to RudyM.

    BTW. I inherited a whole series of Russian writers and read all volumes. They are not really the pinnacle of human literature. War and Peace is just like kiosk literature, only longer, but Tolstoy was not Northern, the family moved from Chernigov to Moscow. That is Central-Eastern European.
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  139. Danand says:

    Yan, thanks for making the effort to generate and share this. I think most would agree that the “components that make up intellect” are widely divergent amongst groups and certainly individuals. But it’s a tough argument that in the aggregate, over the broad spectrum of peoples past and present, they are very far divorced. Even if they were, the historical evidence for specific area/realm intellect importance is limited (IE – does it matter in the wider whole that a group is more a little more gifted in one area, when a little lacking in others?). Overall balanced intellect, and the traits that tend to come with it; introspection, empathy, conscientiousness, … all mater.

    History suggests future. Charles Murrays The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950 & Francis Fukuyamas Trust are amongst the many condensations which make it plainly obvious that “the right stuff”, for lack of better termage, is what it takes to be most effectively dominant.

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  140. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is ‘formal’ instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the “psychology of invention”, of visualization by research mathematicians.)
     
    While I agree that there, basically, are different "mathematical intelligences", I think it is too early to say anything significant re east Asian accomplishments in math; as for Fields medals, we'll have to see what happens in next 20-30 years.

    And, by the way, your thoughtful reference to Poincare, Hadamard (and we could add most of the greats from Descartes on) shows that "math intelligence" is a rough & perhaps too contradictory a concept.

    Perhaps "intelligence" is too narrow. What about creativity, imagination, "visual thinking", non-discursive "thinking" a la Plotinus (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=5BBF8C5AE74B97F18D4379819A512F84)?

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions.
     
    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    The same with literature- poetry is not translatable, while there are no Asian equivalents to universality of Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Proust.

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage.
     
    This is partly true, but I haven't seen any progress in applying, say, acupuncture to modern medicine. In fact, it was seen to be a monumental placebo in some instances: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/ , http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).

    Although with disclaimer I have no professional background in philosophy, let alone knowledge of the relevant languages – many great philosophers consider that Ancient Indian philosophy is one of the most respected traditions and some famous philosophers have believed it to be even more profound than Ancient Greek tradition. To discount the Indian philosophy tradition, which was praised by leading philosophers like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche – it seems a very tenuous position.

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    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    I am not "discounting" it. I've read great expositions of it authored by Radhakrishnan (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=B21E1496C0CDE537858B7E5AF99D9C4F ) & Dasgupta (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=7567AAE467409E9A3EA24D1DB4986946), along with scholarly works of Eliade, Coomarswamy et al. on various topics, and I'd say Indian thought is profound in metaphysics & narrow in most other areas. Unlike Greek & Western philosophy, it remained mostly an elaboration of religious scriptures, soaked in mythic metaphors & never got off as an independent field.
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  141. Krzys says:

    I have one doubt about natural east asian quantitative intelligence as opposed to certain immigration filter. Why, despite all the quantitative talent, is China so poorly represented under Fields medalists?

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  142. TT says:
    @Realist
    Aids was invented???

    Yes, invented by the homosexual gays of whoever want to claim Patent in West. And spread in Africa through the US vaccines program with shared needles. Brought to Asia by the West “whoremonger” & paedophiles as gifts Now marketing by US to whole world as a glorified trendy new lifestyle, LBGT for everyone including Christians & Catholics too.

    Pharmaceutical giants are laughing to the banks, who said globalization not favourable for US.

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  143. TT says:
    @Dmitry

    I think that the article makes a too strong connection with the IQ profile of a people and the scientific achievements of its universities. There is, of course, some connection, but not so strong.

     

    Many (or even most) of the best scientists from the rest of the world (non-US), are working in US universities anyway. The simple result of salary disparity which is allowing US universities to suck up talent from the rest of the world.

    Also the available research fund, best facilities, and available peer talents that make the best genius able to fulfil his dream research.

    After East Asia join up and provide better conditions, then the wave will roll back. The research fund is drying up in US, too much competition for too little fund. China is providing lavishly, so go the Austrian Quantum technology to China.

    Read More
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  144. @TT

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).
     
    Never able to understand a single word of Chinese or Indian languages and their thoughts, the fool declared their 5,000yrs civilization simply cannot withstand the comparison with our few hundred years Western tradition. See, our Effel tower is taller than the Egyptian pyramids, our Trumps border wall will be longer than the China Great Wall, our White House is more modern than India Taj Maha.

    What is Yiching, Taoism, Taodejing, Confucianism, Buddhism, Sun Tze Arts of War, Houheixue, Mengzi, Baijia, .... Vedas, Ayurveda, Hinduism, India philosophy, Buddhism,...i know not a single but it must be worst than what i can read in English Western books. Even thousands year old of Chinese astrology record that shown solar system earth is round & revolving around the sun, cannot compare with our great Galileo discovery that got himself killed.

    We alone are the most majestic, if we cover our own eyes no one can see us.

    cannot compare with our great Galileo discovery that got himself killed.

    You may wish to inform yourself concerning certain facts of Galileo’s trial and house arrest, beginning with 1) He was never killed.

    You truly are a butt-picking idiot, whoever you are. And yes, Western philosophy has a style history and a depth of expression and creative force to which the East can show no parallel. There really isn’t anything wrong with admitting this, so your attempt to obscure this rather obvious point does not reflect very well upon you.

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    • Replies: @TT
    The one need to call himself intelligence is usually very suspicious.

    You may wish to inform yourself concerning certain facts of Galileo’s trial and house arrest, beginning with 1) He was never killed.
     
    Oops sorry. Blame my childhood story book printed in West. If i have broad band access & time, i will dig out 2000yrs ago China astrologist already discovered solar system in complete details, mass of sun & planets, their orbit radius, and how Pie was derived to 10 decimal places using a string tied to two sharp pins to draw perfect circle, dissect to 1024 equal parts. Abacus wasn't invented yet. And how he come out with all the calculus... ooh...West invented calculus. LoL.

    Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy," namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[50]
    He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
    His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52]
     
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  145. Dmitry says:

    I find the beginning of Yan’s essay, where he writes about Feynmann’s low verbal score to be very interesting. But the conclusion he goes on to is not supported, and this is where I skipped the rest of the text.

    So it seems that Feynmann could not spell and made grammatical mistakes, which would explain how he got a low score.

    But if you watch the Feynmann videos on YouTube, it is clear he is able to express himself very intelligently in a verbal way.

    He seems far above in this area, what most mathematicians you go to lectures at university are like (sometimes a high level research, is then so disappointing in their speech).

    The conclusion is not that he has some divergence between his famous maths skills, and his ability to express himself verbally. But rather, that the IQ tests themselves are a poor measure of his abilities. The IQ tests penalize people who cannot spell or use correctly grammar, or have a less wide range of vocabulary. But none of those things are really very relevant.

    The reasonable conclusion was that Feynmann scored low in this area because of his poor writing/spelling/grammar/vocabulary. But that doesn’t support the idea that he was verbally unintelligent. It just shows that the ‘IQ’ tests have a bad ‘signal-to-noise ratio’, at least with this kind of person.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    For example, I find his accent and grammar (I guess he makes a lot of grammatical mistakes) is quite difficult to understand. So combined with his terrible spelling ability and poor vocabulary, that is why he got a low score in the verbal tests. Yet at the same time, it is clear he very intelligent verbally. What this shows is the inadequacy of the tests for this kind of person, not that he had some kind of divergence of intelligence.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM-zWTU7X-k

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  146. TT says:
    @Dmitry
    There's hardly any even most basic maths in the supposed 'maths' PISA exams. The whole thing is a bit of a joke.

    Who cares, get the score, joint the best Ivy, yoo… the future is bright & life is good. Green card is automatic, if not, a good research job back home or anywhere your choice. If Pisa isn’t working, these students with high pisa score won’t graduate from Ivry with top result.

    See how Spore, HK, Asians perfected the scoring? A test skewed towards Western education system, sure OECD can do better than non English native Asian. Alas…sinking year after year, so they import more refugees as remedy.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Who cares, get the score, joint the best Ivy, yoo… the future is bright & life is good. Green card is automatic, if not, a good research job back home or anywhere your choice. If Pisa isn’t working, these students with high pisa score won’t graduate from Ivry with top result.

    See how Spore, HK, Asians perfected the scoring? A test skewed towards Western education system, sure OECD can do better than non English native Asian. Alas…sinking year after year, so they import more refugees as remedy.
     

    While I agree completely with philosophy of life espoused in your first sentence, the point still remains that PISA 'maths exam' does not contain maths. You can download a copy of the exam and see it for yourself.

    The problem is partly as it is testing kids at 15, before most youth begin to learn maths. It's like testing kids for tennis skills, by how well they can bounce a ball up and down. Well... you need to wait until they can actually play tennis, and then the results might be quite surprising (people that sucked at bouncing a ball, might surprise you after they start actually learning real tennis).

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  147. @AaronB
    I'm just waiting for malla and denk to show up so the real entertainment can begin.

    You need Singh to really round out the comments, to be honest. If your posts don’t go into long-winded rambles about sati and beheading infidels, really, what’s the point of writing at all?

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    • LOL: Talha
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  148. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry
    I find the beginning of Yan's essay, where he writes about Feynmann's low verbal score to be very interesting. But the conclusion he goes on to is not supported, and this is where I skipped the rest of the text.

    So it seems that Feynmann could not spell and made grammatical mistakes, which would explain how he got a low score.

    But if you watch the Feynmann videos on YouTube, it is clear he is able to express himself very intelligently in a verbal way.

    He seems far above in this area, what most mathematicians you go to lectures at university are like (sometimes a high level research, is then so disappointing in their speech).

    The conclusion is not that he has some divergence between his famous maths skills, and his ability to express himself verbally. But rather, that the IQ tests themselves are a poor measure of his abilities. The IQ tests penalize people who cannot spell or use correctly grammar, or have a less wide range of vocabulary. But none of those things are really very relevant.

    The reasonable conclusion was that Feynmann scored low in this area because of his poor writing/spelling/grammar/vocabulary. But that doesn't support the idea that he was verbally unintelligent. It just shows that the 'IQ' tests have a bad 'signal-to-noise ratio', at least with this kind of person.

    For example, I find his accent and grammar (I guess he makes a lot of grammatical mistakes) is quite difficult to understand. So combined with his terrible spelling ability and poor vocabulary, that is why he got a low score in the verbal tests. Yet at the same time, it is clear he very intelligent verbally. What this shows is the inadequacy of the tests for this kind of person, not that he had some kind of divergence of intelligence.

    Read More
    • Agree: CanSpeccy
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  149. TT says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    cannot compare with our great Galileo discovery that got himself killed.
     
    You may wish to inform yourself concerning certain facts of Galileo's trial and house arrest, beginning with 1) He was never killed.

    You truly are a butt-picking idiot, whoever you are. And yes, Western philosophy has a style history and a depth of expression and creative force to which the East can show no parallel. There really isn't anything wrong with admitting this, so your attempt to obscure this rather obvious point does not reflect very well upon you.

    The one need to call himself intelligence is usually very suspicious.

    You may wish to inform yourself concerning certain facts of Galileo’s trial and house arrest, beginning with 1) He was never killed.

    Oops sorry. Blame my childhood story book printed in West. If i have broad band access & time, i will dig out 2000yrs ago China astrologist already discovered solar system in complete details, mass of sun & planets, their orbit radius, and how Pie was derived to 10 decimal places using a string tied to two sharp pins to draw perfect circle, dissect to 1024 equal parts. Abacus wasn’t invented yet. And how he come out with all the calculus… ooh…West invented calculus. LoL.

    Galileo was found “vehemently suspect of heresy,” namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to “abjure, curse and detest” those opinions.[50]
    He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
    His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52]

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    It was not about the sun, or the earth, the prestige of the Jesuits was at stake.
    The Jesuits were not at all interested in the solar system, or the flat earth

    Pietro Redondi, ´Galilei, ketter, De politieke machtsstrijd rond het proces tegen Galileo Galilei, 1633’, 1989, Amsterdam (Galileo eretico, 1983, 1989, Turin).

    'politieke machtsstrijd' = political power struggle, 'proces' = trial, 'ketter' = heretic
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  150. @Dmitry

    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while
     
    This comment reaches a level of ridiculousness and reductio ad absurdum, where reality more or less completely disproves the generalizations. It is not difficult to point out that Northern Europe has produced by far the greatest and most complex works of literature in human history, with the pinnacle achieved in Russian language - and that probably East Asia is not far behind (Tale of Genji, written by a Japanese noblewoman in 11th century, is considered the world's first novel). While in visual/spatial arts, the most successful and high-achieving countries were those three Latin countries of Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, and France).

    This comment reaches a level of ridiculousness and reductio ad absurdum, where reality more or less completely disproves the generalizations.

    To be honest, this is the way that I often feel about IQ arguments in general. The more that I study about the brain, the more silly it seems that a simple number be more than the most basic measurement of overall ability.

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  151. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @TT

    Who would want to be Columbus, or Magellan, oceans are terrifying a taste of the infinity we live in – yet they sailed through these navigators of the infinite – which no other culture did – these Chinese bots didn’t even discover the giant continent sized country Australia – right under there asses – yet it took a Captain Cook to discover something under this clone army asses.
     
    Using the map drawn by Ming Dynasty Zhenghe, Columbus, Magenan navigated the oceans, and Cook discovered the land shown in the ancient map. There, the Anglosaxon whites scream, we found it, the Chinese map is correct. Off they load their criminals there, killing the native aborigines like pests and colonized the continent with criminals. They found the mongrel dogs left by Zhenghe for probing the swarmy land toxic gas, gave it a mighty name Tasmania Tiger,..bark bark..their tiger roar.

    Now the jackal is proudly howling here, we found it, we found it, the Chinese map is correct. Right under their ass we stole it from the aborigines that they left them in peace for many hundreds years. Our DNA is Viking, wherever we landed, blood flow, fire burnt, men we killed, women we rape, treasures we robbed, land we occupied. Howl.. howl...

    Ming Dynasty [admiral] Zhenghe …

    Our DNA is Viking,

    Sadly for the great admiral and world explorer Zheng He, Chinese custom had rendered him quite unable to leave behind any trace of his DNA in Africa. Zheng He had been castrated as a boy and sold to serve as a palace eunuch.

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  152. Dmitry says:
    @TT
    Who cares, get the score, joint the best Ivy, yoo... the future is bright & life is good. Green card is automatic, if not, a good research job back home or anywhere your choice. If Pisa isn't working, these students with high pisa score won't graduate from Ivry with top result.

    See how Spore, HK, Asians perfected the scoring? A test skewed towards Western education system, sure OECD can do better than non English native Asian. Alas...sinking year after year, so they import more refugees as remedy.

    https://www.tes.com/sites/default/files/pisa_maths_top_30.png

    https://www.tes.com/sites/default/files/pisa_science_top_30.png

    Who cares, get the score, joint the best Ivy, yoo… the future is bright & life is good. Green card is automatic, if not, a good research job back home or anywhere your choice. If Pisa isn’t working, these students with high pisa score won’t graduate from Ivry with top result.

    See how Spore, HK, Asians perfected the scoring? A test skewed towards Western education system, sure OECD can do better than non English native Asian. Alas…sinking year after year, so they import more refugees as remedy.

    While I agree completely with philosophy of life espoused in your first sentence, the point still remains that PISA ‘maths exam’ does not contain maths. You can download a copy of the exam and see it for yourself.

    The problem is partly as it is testing kids at 15, before most youth begin to learn maths. It’s like testing kids for tennis skills, by how well they can bounce a ball up and down. Well… you need to wait until they can actually play tennis, and then the results might be quite surprising (people that sucked at bouncing a ball, might surprise you after they start actually learning real tennis).

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  153. @Realist
    Aids was invented???

    Well, we are reliably informed that “they wud be kangs” but for the dastardly white man and their CIA inventing AIDs etc.

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  154. Why did the Chinese leave it until the late 20th century to start becoming a science powerhouse?

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    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    Why did the Chinese leave it until the late 20th century to start becoming a science powerhouse?
     
    Too busy chasing the dragon? Murdering 50,000,000 of their own people? Getting asses handed to them by Brits in sailboats? Getting asses handed to them by puny Japan? Hiding behind walls? Waiting for Nixon? Waiting for Russia to teach them how? Destroying infrastructure to build backyard steel furnaces? Reading tea leaves? Playing sticks of wisdom? Poking each other with small needles and calling it medicine?

    All the above? At least they kept busy right?
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  155. Dmitry says:
    @Dr. Doom
    Steve Sailer is a Math Whiz but his occidental views are too far away from the Pacific Rim to get into the details of it. I happen to have had a Youth in Asia and then become immersed in American Culture. I saw both sides and its not inscrutable to me. In the Far East, its not a Tiger Mom, but a serious pressure cooker culture for young males to succeed. They expect you to be the best since Family comes first. Here in the West, its a laid back and lackadaisical attitude. They actually drugged me with Ritalin for pointing out mistakes the low paid schoolmarms made on the chalkboard.
    Men in America are told to slack off. That guy Strickland in Back to the Future is ACTUALLY A VILLAIN for wanting Marty McFly to get to school on time. This joke must fly over the heads of the Far Eastern Audience. Far Eastern kids go to testing coaches. They drill constantly. American men are slacking off, sleeping around and being drugged and STILL DOING WELL ON THESE TESTS.

    DO not underestimate the Genetic Potential of the White Man. They are living in unfavorable conditions and being drugged for not slacking off. The Far Eastern kids are stressing out, getting tutors and even cheating, but not doing that far better than White Men that are being fed anti-academic propaganda and being induced to not be responsible.

    Steve Sailer is a Math Whiz

    He’s obviously the very talented and witty writer (who is great fun to read), but he doesn’t know how to basic statistics.

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  156. TT says:
    @Realist
    "Wise Chinese conceived their invention for peaceful use in mining & firework to enrich mankind, but the wicked greedy West stolen it to bomb & kill everywhere till this very moment. Who has a better purpose?"

    Gunpowder hasn't been used as a practical explosive for over one hundred years.

    "....greedy West stolen it to..."

    What the hell is that?

    Actually ancient China already used gun powder for full range of weapons including flamethrowers, rockets, bombs, and mines, before inventing guns as a projectile weapon. But Chinese used it for defending against Mongols. Mongols used it to invade Japan. European used it to invade China & the world.

    Tell that to stan d mute, troll always used funny handle.

    Wikipedia

    The Chinese “Wu Ching Tsung Yao”, written by Tseng Kung-Liang in 1044, provides encyclopedia references to a variety of mixtures which included petrochemicals, as well as garlic and honey. A slow match for flame throwing mechanisms using the siphon principle and for fireworks and rockets are mentioned. Academics argue the Chinese wasted little time in applying gunpowder to warfare, and they produced a variety of gunpowder weapons, including flamethrowers, rockets, bombs, and mines, before inventing guns as a projectile weapon.[21]

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    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    troll always used funny handle
     
    1,160 comments here and 170,000+ words. Nearly all have been grammatically correct. To my knowledge Confucius here is first to accuse me of being a Troll. How ironic eh? I enjoyed how much he contributed by ignoring (failing to comprehend) the point made and instead focused on China’s vast military power (ignoring that 50K British soldiers spanked the country into opiate somnolence), but then we Trolls are rather easily amused aren’t we? At least we don’t play “pick up sticks” (a child’s game) or stare at coffee grounds seeking wisdom.

    And with that, plus Unz’ white man’s magic of “commenters to ignore” - Sayonara. (Yeah, out of kindness I didn’t mention what the Japanese did to his weak ass ancestors)
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  157. @TT
    Actually ancient China already used gun powder for full range of weapons including flamethrowers, rockets, bombs, and mines, before inventing guns as a projectile weapon. But Chinese used it for defending against Mongols. Mongols used it to invade Japan. European used it to invade China & the world.

    Tell that to stan d mute, troll always used funny handle.

    Wikipedia

    The Chinese "Wu Ching Tsung Yao", written by Tseng Kung-Liang in 1044, provides encyclopedia references to a variety of mixtures which included petrochemicals, as well as garlic and honey. A slow match for flame throwing mechanisms using the siphon principle and for fireworks and rockets are mentioned. Academics argue the Chinese wasted little time in applying gunpowder to warfare, and they produced a variety of gunpowder weapons, including flamethrowers, rockets, bombs, and mines, before inventing guns as a projectile weapon.[21]
     

    troll always used funny handle

    1,160 comments here and 170,000+ words. Nearly all have been grammatically correct. To my knowledge Confucius here is first to accuse me of being a Troll. How ironic eh? I enjoyed how much he contributed by ignoring (failing to comprehend) the point made and instead focused on China’s vast military power (ignoring that 50K British soldiers spanked the country into opiate somnolence), but then we Trolls are rather easily amused aren’t we? At least we don’t play “pick up sticks” (a child’s game) or stare at coffee grounds seeking wisdom.

    And with that, plus Unz’ white man’s magic of “commenters to ignore” – Sayonara. (Yeah, out of kindness I didn’t mention what the Japanese did to his weak ass ancestors)

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    • Replies: @TT
    Sorry mistaken you as troll, shot the wrong guy. You make a gd damn pt, those assholes Qing dynasty.. Your handle do look funny isnt it? Common, don't be petty, we got calling names by others too.
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  158. @Peripatetic commenter
    Why did the Chinese leave it until the late 20th century to start becoming a science powerhouse?

    Why did the Chinese leave it until the late 20th century to start becoming a science powerhouse?

    Too busy chasing the dragon? Murdering 50,000,000 of their own people? Getting asses handed to them by Brits in sailboats? Getting asses handed to them by puny Japan? Hiding behind walls? Waiting for Nixon? Waiting for Russia to teach them how? Destroying infrastructure to build backyard steel furnaces? Reading tea leaves? Playing sticks of wisdom? Poking each other with small needles and calling it medicine?

    All the above? At least they kept busy right?

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  159. With Chinese IQ so high, why are white nationalists still so blase about the China threat?

    Would love to see more recently updated information on Indian IQ trends.

    redpillindian.blogspot.com

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  160. myself says:
    @Thought Criminal
    There are some caveats to this:

    1. Not all parts of technology are equally complex. In sectors like aerospace, East Asia has lagged behind. Again, the design problems, analytical models for design, and materials engineering, metrology, for military and space equipment (like avionics, sensors, composite materials, optics, electronics) is much more advanced than the rest put together. The USA, Russia, Israel and so on lead in these areas. It is much more complex than consumer gadgets, and it requires larger single obstacles. Single large technology innovations, like entirely new capabilities or layers of offense/defense (hypersonic munitions, radar, acoustics) were and are all made in the West or Russia. Although China might pull ahead here in the future, its strong areas are still different.

    2. Not all scientific areas are equally complex or difficult. Namely, there (almost) aren’t any East Asian research contributions to pure math or theoretical physics, while you have plenty of these from the West. (See: Fields Medal recipients.) In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India. No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times. It’s also a myth that more advanced pure mathematics is based on just mathematical intelligence (which at the simple levels is 'formal' instead of topological or abstract); in fact verbal methods, spatial methods, are also commonly used in discovery. (G. Polya thought ‘verbally’, Poincare thought ‘poetically’, and most thought not symbolically but used ‘soft’ visualization; see the book by Hadamard on the "psychology of invention", of visualization by research mathematicians.)

    3. East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc. This is just a stereotype, since they have their own logographic languages. China has a long tradition of philosophy that uses verbal reasoning, but it consists in constructing complicated and abstract qualities (and how one quality transforms to its opposite, in Zen Buddhism), not complex objects. China still has “philosophers” comparable to those in the West, see Xiong Shili “New Treatise on the Uniqueness of Consciousness” recently translated to English. It’s a myth that China doesn’t have philosophy or complex conceptualizations: it does. And furthermore, the Chinese theories are also fruitful technologically (Yin-Yang thinking also used in martial arts, strategy, medicine). Also, the four vernacular novels of China were also strategic treatises (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms), and philosophical treatises on Yin-Yang progressions. Also see the work of François Jullien and Roger T. Ames on Chinese philosophy, philology and semiotics, including figures like Wang Bi. China invented a larger range of 'secondary languages' on top of natural language (while the West merely attempted it, e.g. the languages of Wilkins, Dalgarno, Leibniz). The West invented the single most rigorous language (formal mathematics).

    4. China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation, and China was extremely deep in developing entire language (based on Yin-Yang progressions) for heuristics. Say, Traditional Chinese Medicine still is the source for many discoveries, like the ‘Gilenya’ drug (FDA approved). The single largest Chinese advances — such as gunpowder without chemistry, the magnetic compass, earthquake prediction machines, medical advances — are based on highly complex verbal models, like the Yin-Yang system. Some Western mathematicians (like Grothendieck) find Yin-Yang thinking highly relevant for developing heuristics, since this converts the question of invention into a question of ‘where’, in predicting where the same kind of quality or aspect should be injected at which stage. Pre-scientific experimentation is still just as relevant as science: heat engines were built before thermodynamics, airplanes before aerodynamics, the 'enigma of the aerofoil', computers before computer science, and so on.

    On point 2) “No major scientific discovery was ever made in East Asia in modern times”.

    Well, if you count modern times as being from the last few centuries, say 1500 AD to the present, well that is obvious as the East Asians themselves fully admit and concede. There is a good reason that “modern times” coincides with the era of “Western Dominance”. It is fair to say that Modern Times = Western Era.
    East Asia was certainly, and self-admittedly, held back by archaic and outdated systems of thought – or to put it another way, by a very backward culture. In fact, the very culture they themselves have seen fit to discard, for better or worse.

    “Cultural Appropriation” of the White Man’s ideas, of you will.

    Also point 2) “In fact, East Asians couldn’t even “invent the wheel” mathematically for thousands of years. They didn’t come up with basic notation, basic proofs, or anything. What they did have was stolen from India.”

    No, respectfully disagree on this point. I don’t know about generalized East Asians, but there was precious little mathematical exchange between China and India, and still less between China and Western Eurasia, at least until about 200 AD. Even from that point, the borrowing of ideas was scant. It was actually with the arrival of the Jesuit missionaries, in the 16th century, that the ideas of “modern Western mathematics”, clearly superior ones, fairly deluged China and all of East Asia.

    Essentially, China developed mathematics independently – until overtaken by the modern era.

    On point 4) “China has been superior not in science, but in pre-scientific experimentation.”

    Precisely because no culture ANYWHERE had ANY “science” of which to speak prior to about 1500, not even its eventual developers, the cultures of NorthWestern Europe. (Note, nor ALL of Europe, we are talking a very small, specific group of cultures within Europe). The ancient Greeks and Romans did not have “modern science” for example – they had inquiry and structured thought, and so did some other classical cultures.

    On point 3) “East Asians aren’t inferior in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc”

    I would have to agree, but I must point out the obvious, and that is while engaging in wide-ranging, deep and rigorous examination of a mind-boggling range of subjects, the Chinese in particular, as a sort of “progenitor” civilization to the rest of Eastern Eurasia, have often begun from very different starting assumptions, and so have come to startlingly different conclusions and promulgated very different paradigms and views and nuances from those in Southern and Western Eurasia/North Africa.

    Conclusions and paradigms that often seem not merely “foreign”, but rather downright “alien” to the Western mind.

    As a side note, the directions of inquiry and conclusions of Subcontinental Indian thinkers are also quite alien to those from outside South Asia.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    If read without prejudices, Ancient Greek thought, is also very alien to us - perhaps equally so as Ancient traditions of India and China. Alien strangeness of Ancient Greek thought, is one of the things Nietzsche often emphasizes in his writing.
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  161. myself says:
    @Stan d Mute
    Your comment and some others is a forest/trees issue I think and I see it also in the original article. It appears that white people (and South Asians ie Subcontinental Indians) have a higher percentage at the extreme fringes than do East Asians who cluster (like Sub-Saharan Africans and women) closer to their mean. This is highly relevant when we look at exceptionalism no? In gross numbers, East Asian populations will yield more very good math/science practitioners. At the most extreme levels, per capita, they have fewer, but here gross population numbers come to the fore so they’re likely to produce overall more geniuses as well except perhaps at the level of Fields Medalists or history changing physicists.

    Then there’s the issue of herd mentality which seems strongest among whites and East Asians. Having adopted, largely without the endless debating of the originators (Jews), the idea of anti-exceptionalism, we suppress exceptionalism while the East Asians are somewhat less on board despite (or perhaps because) having exterminated 50,000,000 of their own by blindly following such a reprehensible idea without the incessant debates that have largely prevented Jews from wholesale adoption themselves.

    There may very well be something to this concept of closer East Asian IQ clustering than that of Whites and Indians, but I’ve never yet seen or encountered a proper study saying so.

    In contrast, the Asian general IQ and math/verbal split have been noted for some time by researchers, none of whom have yet mentioned an IQ clustering phenomenon.

    Perhaps the lesser Asian creativity is not down to IQ genetics, but the cultural paradigm of conformity instead?

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    Perhaps the lesser Asian creativity is not down to IQ genetics, but the cultural paradigm of conformity instead?
     
    How does East Asian conformity differ from European herd mentality (as exemplified by say Puritanism or SJWism)? I may be wrong on the clustering toward the mean, I think I have seen it studied and confirmed, and it fits what I see with my lying eyes, but maybe not. Anyway, my goal was to provoke more thought and I’m glad to see I succeeded in at least one mind. Culture is no doubt a big factor, but my question is always, “is race a social construct or is society a racial construct?” Which way does the arrow of causation point truly?
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  162. myself says:
    @JSM

    However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science

     

    Explain to me... China has had 5000 years of civilization. How come it was White Guys in Europe that had to invent and discover all the physics, chemistry, engineering and math that Yan is now telling us how amazing China's rise in these fields is?

    Yan will say, "Oh! White man, he just picked all the low-hanging fruit. It's the Asians who are now doing all the hard work."

    So, why WAS it that the White man did the low-fruit-picking? China's been a civilization for 5000 years. Why did THEY not pick that easy fruit? Huh? Where ya been for the last 5 millenia, Superior Asian Man? Huh?

    There is zero doubt in anyone’s mind that the last 500 years have belonged to the West.

    Asians themselves say this very thing. It’s their acceptance of this fact, instead of bitching and moaning, that’s allowed them to develop.

    But we shouldn’t get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn’t dominate the last 5,000 years.

    And our current dominance is . . . looking fragile.

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    • Replies: @JSM
    Aye.
    And allowing inscrutable Asians into our universities and industries where they can steal military and industrial secrets to take back home to the Chicom central committee is...looking foolheaded as anything could possibly be.
    , @Stan d Mute

    But we shouldn’t get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn’t dominate the last 5,000 years.
     
    Yes ... and No. The game is far from over. But while we discovered, conquered, and tamed the planet, they had their asses handed to them by two puny little islands and built a wall to hide behind while they played games and smoked opium. Now, first with Russia’s help and later with ours, they’re indeed catching up and may well soon eclipse us. We seem more fanatically determined to genocide ourselves than anything else at this point. My best practices solution is to shamelessly steal from one another what the other does best. If the game requires a loser, let it be those who’ve contributed nothing whatsoever to the betterment of our species or even of their own subspecies (I needn’t name them). We still have much to learn from East Asia particularly and they still have much to learn from us. We are, even together, a very long way from understanding our Universe.
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  163. Svigor says:

    Kato! Not today, Kato!

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  164. JSM says:
    @myself
    There is zero doubt in anyone's mind that the last 500 years have belonged to the West.

    Asians themselves say this very thing. It's their acceptance of this fact, instead of bitching and moaning, that's allowed them to develop.

    But we shouldn't get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn't dominate the last 5,000 years.

    And our current dominance is . . . looking fragile.

    Aye.
    And allowing inscrutable Asians into our universities and industries where they can steal military and industrial secrets to take back home to the Chicom central committee is…looking foolheaded as anything could possibly be.

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  165. @myself
    There may very well be something to this concept of closer East Asian IQ clustering than that of Whites and Indians, but I've never yet seen or encountered a proper study saying so.

    In contrast, the Asian general IQ and math/verbal split have been noted for some time by researchers, none of whom have yet mentioned an IQ clustering phenomenon.

    Perhaps the lesser Asian creativity is not down to IQ genetics, but the cultural paradigm of conformity instead?

    Perhaps the lesser Asian creativity is not down to IQ genetics, but the cultural paradigm of conformity instead?

    How does East Asian conformity differ from European herd mentality (as exemplified by say Puritanism or SJWism)? I may be wrong on the clustering toward the mean, I think I have seen it studied and confirmed, and it fits what I see with my lying eyes, but maybe not. Anyway, my goal was to provoke more thought and I’m glad to see I succeeded in at least one mind. Culture is no doubt a big factor, but my question is always, “is race a social construct or is society a racial construct?” Which way does the arrow of causation point truly?

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  166. myself says:
    @Thought Criminal
    1. The West, Russia, Japan, China, all have radically different value systems: the reason why East Asia does not ‘invent’ is because it seeks not to radically invent, but other forms of expansion. Russia, again, has its own value system that led to its heights of literature, high-end engineering, mathematics, and so on.

    The Western world represented explosions: either an explosion at the beginning (Ancient Greece), or an endless explosion: at the top (French, Italian), or explosion from the inward to the outward (German). Quick, virtuosic invention (as in music) is explosion; it is the sudden seizing out, the inward to the outward, domination over a single great moment. Gradual construction, levels of discipline and vision (starting with the Romans, and cumulating in the development of accurate measurement and visual representation in the Italian Renaissance), directs invention and prevents its excesses. German culture ended with Richard Wagner, since he represented such a complete satisfaction of the inward exploding completely and totally, that there was nothing left to express: the full journey of body, mind and spirit ended here. (The only other explosive civilization of the past was Ancient India.)

    Russia (and also I think Hungary) represents turbulent eddies, vortices, psychological rather than philosophical, mentally unclear but clean in substance, the inward world that imitates and reflects the outward. It is the endless development and recovery from inner confusion. (Hence, the weakness of Russian philosophy was the strength of the Russian novel.) This is not the ‘explosion’ from the inward to the outward. It does not explode, it ‘gathers’ and mobilizes all aspects. The Russian expansion is the highest and deepest domination that ‘makes up for’ an inward disorder or blockage in a few crucial regions, makes up for the arctic squalor of the surroundings. (Hence, the Soviet style in mathematics and theoretical physics, without a single wasted particle of thought.) The obstacles are inward, not outward.

    East Asia represents not invention (the explosion), nor the endless “brewing” of Russia, but the power of organic breadth of expansion (while invention is only one type of expansion, but the fastest). East Asia has many uniquely deep forms of construction (the 'dialectical' structuring in its painting, literature, strategy), while the West has two uniquely deep forms of architectonic (pure mathematics, classical music composition). Unlike what Oswald Spengler said, there was never any clear, or non-muddled ‘inward consciousness’ of China or Japan, since the real basic principles were a matter of conceptual formation: everything — every conception, rule, goal, distinction, and inward-directedness — was a compromise or ‘moderated point’ between opposites (hence the contradictoriness of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism, one of them backward-looking even at an early point, one of them ‘moderated’ between inwardness and outwardness, one of them extreme — and each of them dealing with a different domain of questions). Another way to see this is that China never reached full civilization and satisfaction, nor had any ‘hardening’ to backward-looking satisfaction, or even any form of complete civilization: it combined or perpetually mixed this with its opposite: this is obvious at the levels of basic institutional disorder at each period (with violence ‘brewing’ beneath the surface), and the huge expansion in epic literature and strategic thinking that took place at later periods (say the Three Kingdoms). The same applies to Japan: it achieved enormous expansions, such as epic Samurai literature (The Tale of the Heike). It represents the wide expansion of an organism, that remains powerful at every single period, rather than completely revolutionary during a single one.

    Rather, the Chinese and Japanese conception of civilization is not a perfected state, but an arrangement that works in the long term (which must be moderated, not perfected). The Western revolutions in fundamental science were dependent on a stage in history, much like the advances in Ancient India (that constructed entire notations and subject matter from scratch). It is not guaranteed to be relevant beyond it. East Asian advances (in pre-scientific discovery and pure engineering) are relevant in every single stage, but not absolutely dominant over any single one. But after a certain stage in history (say, after fundamental physics is mostly clarified and there are only advances in condensed matter, complex systems and such), there is good evidence that both the Russian and East Asian modes will be dominant over the Western one.


    2. The two (China and Japan) never were antagonists. Japan helped China at a systemic level; competent Chinese leadership were trained in Japan (like Chiang Kai-Shek, Zhou En-lai), and without Japan there would have been no Chinese attempt at modernization. Japanese conquest of Manchuria was necessary to halting Russian imperial advances towards China. A Japanese conquest of China would subtract nothing from the culture but simply add additional elements (compare this to the Maoists, who tried to abolish Kanji). Japanese ‘massacres’ were balanced by the fact that they saved elite Chinese cultural figures like Lu Xun from nationalist White Terror. The technology transfer that went from Japan to China from the 1970s-90s was the largest transfer of production know-how in all of human history, and covered extreme high-end production technology that the USA tried to avoid access to (this is detailed by Eamonn Fingleton, in his book). The point is, without Japan, China would be nowhere today: and vice versa (Japan’s industrialization of Manchuria provided the model for its post-war economic system). E. Asian countries have ambiguous — not absolutely negative or positive — relations with each other. The West tends to misunderstand this because it simply stops at observing a certain practice without looking at different aspects of it. E.g., the same Chinese people who complain about Japan also buy Japanese products and entertainment, visit Japan as tourists, and Chinese students still seek Japan as the top destination.

    This is based on the basic principles. Chinese and Japanese culture (including its philosophy and basic way of forming conceptions) is based on the principle of moderation: every belief, rule, law, goal, system is not followed absolutely but with exceptions, or with contradictory aspects. The same goes for Japan and other E. Asian countries: if you understand their philosophy and cultural values, “moderation” is something prior to the idea of civilization itself. That is, China was never completely civilized in its history (but mixed civilization, barbarism, decadence). The West fully rises and declines; China never had any comparable golden ages (only silver ages). China does not support full freedom or totalitarianism, but some compromise in the middle (escaping certain limitations of both extremes, like internet restrictions today are easily evaded). There is little absolute friendship or opening oneself up in China (hence the dislike for dogs). China is never fully educated, but never completely ‘dark’ (there is a ‘spirit’ of education). China was never absolutely safe in any part of its history, but it avoided both extremes. China is never absolutely racialist; it referred to barbarians as inferiors, but it also encouraged racial mixing with barbarians throughout its history, and the concept of ‘Chinese’ is racially ambiguous (not as universal as ‘Roman’, but not strictly an ethnic group either). There is a sharp moderation between the public and the private views, in which contradictions are cultivated. China never had absolute civic spirit, but its periods of disunity lasted shorter than in the West (where an empire permanently split into smaller warring countries). Guerilla warfare is China’s specialty, and it is literally ‘intermediate’ between individual criminality, and organized, civic warfare. That is, China is not any less criminal than the West, but it lacks any features of blunt, random violence as in the West, or purely gratuitous violence or torture. None of this is guaranteed to be absolutely superior or inferior; it actually depends on which stage of history one is talking about.

    (It is exactly by working with moderated properties, like Yin and Yang not being absolutely exclusive, that makes qualities more elaborate and structured, with one thing converting to its opposite if pushed enough; e.g., by attempting to be moderate in every area, you push the extremes to a few crucial ones — like the vast scale of literary production, and overall longevity. Also, there is no ‘induction’ from a particular to a general since every particular fact is actually fully ‘general’; every particular belief or seemingly simple distinction, is structured by contradictory aspects.)

    This has, it must be admitted, certain long-term advantages: the fact that China is never absolutely civilized (but is partly barbarous, and partly decadent) prevents it from declining to extreme decadence, like what is happening with European birthrates. The fact that they are centralized yet highly corrupt has long-term advantages, since China can adopt many ‘dangerous’ technologies that would not be possible in more rigid societies (like a long-term space program, human genetic engineering). China was never as militarily powerful as the Roman Empire or Russia or Germany was at its height, but never as weak as they were in their weak periods either: this again makes for longevity (of military power; that is, China’s guerilla warfare capabilities were always good and they were able to ‘gradually’ push out invaders).

    But then ‘longevity’ itself is moderated: China is slightly more continuous (in terms of a continued stream of major and highly influential literary production) than India, Persia or Europe, and in the form of institutions, and in specific intellectual ‘traditions’ that depend on deep linguistic construction, but it is not quite as continuous as Japan. It is in many aspects (like presevation of architecture) not as continuous as Europe. Not only is longevity moderated, but also the attitude towards longevity is moderated: China boasts about being ancient, but destroys actual direct artifacts of the past, and it also adopts foreign ideas, technology, and so on.

    It is also the basic principle of both Chinese and Japanese philosophy. Yukio Mishima, say, was a good example of a Japanese ‘Zen’ figure (and he is still so regarded in Japan itself); by purging himself of Chinese influence, he becomes a figure characteristic of China itself (the ‘revolutionary ideologists’ at the end of each dynastic period, including Lu Xun in the 20th century) rather than Japan. By supporting his own imaginary Japan, he renders himself helpless against the real, actual Japan in the flesh. By being a Western-style individualist and Nietzschean egotist (towards positive affirmation), he commits suicide in the end (nihilism), which is the extreme ‘emptiness’ of the self. By rejecting Buddhism, he becomes a very ‘Zen’ figure. By projecting a false image of the Japanese as inward individualists, he paralyzes the Western understanding of Japan, and so destroys the West and individualism.

    I would agree.

    At the very core of the Chinese view of the cosmos, if you drill down deep enough, is the concept that ANY idea, system, belief, philosophy, or set of actions, if pushed TOO FAR, will inevitably give rise to an opposing principle which will force it back into harmony with the larger universe. Man has agency, but the Universe (“Reality” if you will) is the ultimate arbiter. One does not go against Reality.

    In this view, though Man’s nature is to have agency, have will and to strive, still the final result is not entirely his to determine, only partially so. His actions are his own, the outcome may not be – and this is no cause for guilt or shame. “No blame if one acts from righteousness”, as put in the YiJing.

    I like your depiction of Chinese civilization – always on the SPECTRUM of barbarism/high civilization/decadence – a spectrum, NEVER an end-point!

    For to reach ascension, “apotheosis” is to stagnate, and therefore to go into an oblivion from which nothing, no one, no race, people or civilization can recover! (No civilization indeed has ever recovered from its demise – where now are Memphis, Thebes, Mohenjo-Daro, Athens, Rome or Byzantium?)

    Never descending into hell (and oblivion), nor ever ascending to heaven (and oblivion), instead seeing the universe as infinite and eternal, and mortal man’s journey within it as infinite and eternal as well.

    That is the core idea of Chinese civilization, and it perhaps pre-dates all other schools of thought in China.

    Now, is this a good or even useful way of being? Hell if I know.

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  167. wayfarer says:

    “AI Expert Claims Plumbers and Electricians Will Be Last to Get Replaced by Robots”

    source: https://interestingengineering.com/ai-expert-claims-plumbers-and-electricians-will-be-last-to-get-replaced-by-robots

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I agree - fields that have a lot of variance especially with legacy systems and requiring personal judgment will be the hardest to automate. I actually don't think we will see "joblessness" from AI anytime soon; the greater concern is simply acceleration of current trends of big data centralizing information in a manner which was previously impossible.
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  168. TT says:
    @Stan d Mute

    troll always used funny handle
     
    1,160 comments here and 170,000+ words. Nearly all have been grammatically correct. To my knowledge Confucius here is first to accuse me of being a Troll. How ironic eh? I enjoyed how much he contributed by ignoring (failing to comprehend) the point made and instead focused on China’s vast military power (ignoring that 50K British soldiers spanked the country into opiate somnolence), but then we Trolls are rather easily amused aren’t we? At least we don’t play “pick up sticks” (a child’s game) or stare at coffee grounds seeking wisdom.

    And with that, plus Unz’ white man’s magic of “commenters to ignore” - Sayonara. (Yeah, out of kindness I didn’t mention what the Japanese did to his weak ass ancestors)

    Sorry mistaken you as troll, shot the wrong guy. You make a gd damn pt, those assholes Qing dynasty.. Your handle do look funny isnt it? Common, don’t be petty, we got calling names by others too.

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  169. bjondo says:

    Are the major miseries and pointless, worthless inventions in life gifts of the high IQ possessors?

    Seems most high IQ possessors spend, waste tax dollars inventing corrections to inventions of other high IQ possessors. A process that goes on for eternity.

    How is carpentry, plumbing, farming IQ measured.

    Who is more valuable for a good, decent life: the Feynmans, the Wolfowitzs, the Robert Rubins or good carpenters/plumbers/potato growers.

    Could Einstein find his way out of a bathroom stall? Are his plagiarisms more valuable to the enjoyment of daily life than the bagel, a food item his supposedly high IQ cult stole and claim as its own.

    IQ testing is probably most useful for corralling in those who should be weeded out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh


    How is carpentry, plumbing, farming IQ measured.
     
    I dunno, do you enjoy metallurgy of your piping system, the availability of wood through complex logistics channels or the ready availability of food thanks to massive, optimized agricultural projects?

    Its easy to knock on the many flaws of modernity but it has objective, measurable benefits to society as well, and in introducing the internet, arguably has created an entire new aspect of reality. In doing so, too, we may end up creating our replacements but isn't that the ultimate goal for all life? Is it so terrible to be Chronos, if we are to bring about Zeus?
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  170. Svigor says:

    There is zero doubt in anyone’s mind that the last 500 years have belonged to the West.

    Asians themselves say this very thing. It’s their acceptance of this fact, instead of bitching and moaning, that’s allowed them to develop.

    But we shouldn’t get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn’t dominate the last 5,000 years.

    And our current dominance is . . . looking fragile.

    I don’t care about dominance.

    Dominance is a relative thing; if Bob has 1 billion and Tom has 100 million, Bob has “dominance.” If Tom makes another billion dollars, he now has “dominance.” But WGAF, except people obsessed with such things?* Both men are wealthy far beyond their needs. Tom is no poorer for having less than Bob, Bob is no richer for having more than Tom, and vice-versa.

    Sure, fine, if people need national dominance to motivate them to give their best, great, more power to you. I for one don’t believe in the national keep up with the Joneses thing. I believe in setting our national goals and achieving them.

    There are over a billion Chinese in China alone. ONE WOULD BLOODY WELL HOPE A COUNTRY WITH A POPULATION THAT BIG, WITH A MEAN IQ HIGHER THAN THE EUROPEAN MEAN, COULD SURPASS THE USA IN GDP. We’ve only got like 200m or so white people living in this country, and they have to drag a bunch of NAMs over the finish line.

    *I cite the western record defensively, as a way of telling genocidaires to FUCK OFF; we don’t need your “cognitively elite” people. Otherwise ICGAF.

    ***

    I hope China gives us a real run for our money, especially in important fields like medicine, genetics, alternative energy, space exploration, etc. The innovations they create will benefit all mankind; same way Jews benefit from von Braun’s work.

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  171. utu says:

    IQ or the Math/Verbal Split?

    False alternative. The answer: neither.

    Japan, China, Korea are at the point they have all what it takes to lead. The world will survive and smoothly will progress even if EU and the US are wiped out form the surface of the Earth. They do not need West anymore.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    It had better happen quickly because none of them have children.
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  172. @myself
    There is zero doubt in anyone's mind that the last 500 years have belonged to the West.

    Asians themselves say this very thing. It's their acceptance of this fact, instead of bitching and moaning, that's allowed them to develop.

    But we shouldn't get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn't dominate the last 5,000 years.

    And our current dominance is . . . looking fragile.

    But we shouldn’t get cocky. History never stands still, NEVER. We dominated the last 500 years. We didn’t dominate the last 5,000 years.

    Yes … and No. The game is far from over. But while we discovered, conquered, and tamed the planet, they had their asses handed to them by two puny little islands and built a wall to hide behind while they played games and smoked opium. Now, first with Russia’s help and later with ours, they’re indeed catching up and may well soon eclipse us. We seem more fanatically determined to genocide ourselves than anything else at this point. My best practices solution is to shamelessly steal from one another what the other does best. If the game requires a loser, let it be those who’ve contributed nothing whatsoever to the betterment of our species or even of their own subspecies (I needn’t name them). We still have much to learn from East Asia particularly and they still have much to learn from us. We are, even together, a very long way from understanding our Universe.

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  173. @wayfarer
    “AI Expert Claims Plumbers and Electricians Will Be Last to Get Replaced by Robots”

    source: https://interestingengineering.com/ai-expert-claims-plumbers-and-electricians-will-be-last-to-get-replaced-by-robots

    https://now-here-this.timeout.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/ToiletGraffiti014.jpg

    I agree – fields that have a lot of variance especially with legacy systems and requiring personal judgment will be the hardest to automate. I actually don’t think we will see “joblessness” from AI anytime soon; the greater concern is simply acceleration of current trends of big data centralizing information in a manner which was previously impossible.

    Read More
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  174. @bjondo
    Are the major miseries and pointless, worthless inventions in life gifts of the high IQ possessors?

    Seems most high IQ possessors spend, waste tax dollars inventing corrections to inventions of other high IQ possessors. A process that goes on for eternity.

    How is carpentry, plumbing, farming IQ measured.

    Who is more valuable for a good, decent life: the Feynmans, the Wolfowitzs, the Robert Rubins or good carpenters/plumbers/potato growers.

    Could Einstein find his way out of a bathroom stall? Are his plagiarisms more valuable to the enjoyment of daily life than the bagel, a food item his supposedly high IQ cult stole and claim as its own.

    IQ testing is probably most useful for corralling in those who should be weeded out.

    How is carpentry, plumbing, farming IQ measured.

    I dunno, do you enjoy metallurgy of your piping system, the availability of wood through complex logistics channels or the ready availability of food thanks to massive, optimized agricultural projects?

    Its easy to knock on the many flaws of modernity but it has objective, measurable benefits to society as well, and in introducing the internet, arguably has created an entire new aspect of reality. In doing so, too, we may end up creating our replacements but isn’t that the ultimate goal for all life? Is it so terrible to be Chronos, if we are to bring about Zeus?

    Read More
    • Replies: @wayfarer
    A skilled carpenter, is a skilled geometer.

    Treatise on the design and construction of an hydraulic flute playing machine. The treatise is attributed to 'Apollonius the carpenter and geometer (أبلنيوس النجار الهندسي)', who some have identified.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Apollonius-of-Perga
    https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100023698323.0x000003

     

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  175. myself says:
    @AaronB
    Very intelligent and interesting comment, which strikes me as broadly true.

    The West doesn't do moderation - extreme rise, followed by despair and apathy as hopes fail to materialize, and the human condition fails to be transformed. It's an unstable system.

    The Middle Ages were more of a moderate period of the West, but it gradually slipped into extreme pessimism by the 14th century, and was then replaced by extreme earthly optimism. The late 19th century saw despair and apathy growing as all that conquest and technological brilliance failed to result in "redemption", and life in this world remained as thorny and unsatisaying as ever.

    It will be interesting to see if Asia has really been transformed from within in a Western direction - and is now in a "Faustian" phase - or if it's a superficial graft and will be shed like a false skin once conditions are more propitious.

    So far, the nature of Asian catching up with the West has not been Faustian - no brilliant explosions - but a moderate level of steadily accumulating performance that, combined with the post-Faustian apathy of the West, has shifted the center of gravity towards Asia.

    But it's too early to tell.

    If the Japanese trajectory is a template for what we can except of an Asia trying to match and surpass the West, then we can except China to undergo a brief effloresence of performance followed by a return to more traditional cultural patterns that moderate disparate elements.

    And it will be interesting to see if the Faustian West has finaly dedtroyed itself or will learn moderation at long last.

    According to the Chinese traditional view, it’s the West and not the Rest that’s been more in harmony and more aligned with the flows of the Universe these last 500 years, hence the over-all material and even philosophical and artistic success of the West.

    To take that further, as China gradually regains its harmony and equilibrium with the demands of history (history as outward expression of the eternal cosmic flow – Taoist thought), so it experiences significant advance.

    The purported malaise of the West, the thinking goes, is due to having become misaligned with the Universe in the last few decades, but has nothing to do with China – the West is on its own trajectory, whatever that may be.

    As for Japan, they had a winning formula, suitable for a specific era, but then they became hide-bound and unwilling to change, they stuck with their tried and true formula. This is a mistake that those I’ve spoken to in China are all to conscious to avoid.

    One observation, though, and I think a valid one.

    Japan has not, in recent times, initiated major change from within. The Meiji reforms were a reaction to the West, while the post-WW2 era was again a reaction to defeat at Allied hands. Brilliant reactions to be sure.

    In contrast, while China discarded the Imperial system in response to the needs of modernity, it also had a huge Civil War that destroyed the old social order and gave extreme Communists control. Then it underwent, again from within, the Reform and Opening Era which discredited and removed the ideologues from power.

    Japan’s greater success in modernizing means it has not had the revolutions found necessary by China. On the other hand, in spite of many failures, China has shown itself more willing to undergo self-initiated radical change.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    In my opinion China kept the imperial system, as Russia kept the tsarist system.
    Just different names for the rulers.
    Cultures hardly change.
    As a Dutch politician said 'France is a monarchy with an elected monarch, the Netherlands is a republic with a hereditary head of state'.
    Macron is nicknamed Jupiter.
    Does not Merkel behave as a Kaiser ?
    The USA, still run by a oligarchy of a few rich people, as when the Declaration was signed.
    Belgium, a mess, as a someone with that nationality said 'Belgium, it does not exist'.
    Flemish and Wallonians still fighting each other.
    Spain, still under fascist rule, as we see in how Madrid behaves toward Barcelona, the Civil War relived.
    Italy resembles the medieval city state mess.
    And so on, and so forth.
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  176. I don’t see a general decline in Continental European engineering talent. The countries that have fallen behind in this area are the Anglo nations which have neglected their manufacturing sectors and slashed tariffs. Europe is well up there in terms of designing and manufacturing machine tools, heavy machinery, agricultural equipment, boats, weapons systems, etc. Japan probably leads the world in building affordable, reliable cars but Europe is still very competitive in producing trucks, vans and innovative luxury cars.

    However, you’re probably right that the West is falling behind in terms of designing and manufacturing electronic hardware. Consumer electronics are now totally dominated by East Asia and otherwise well-designed European cars are often let down by unreliable electronics.

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  177. bjondo says:

    I dunno, do you enjoy metallurgy of your piping system, the availability of wood through complex logistics channels or the ready availability of food thanks to massive, optimized agricultural projects?

    Well, the wood is from a simple delivery system – nearby forest and the massive, optimized ag projects with the various high IQ scientists from Monsanto et al produces bountiful tonnage of trash food stuffs. Also reduces variety.

    Its easy to knock on the many flaws of modernity but it has objective, measurable benefits to society as well, and in introducing the internet, arguably has created an entire new aspect of reality.

    The internet as a provider of info and communication hidden by high IQ sorts is nice but replacing social interaction is not and life was very nice without.

    In doing so, too, we may end up creating our replacements but isn’t that the ultimate goal for all life? Is it so terrible to be Chronos, if we are to bring about Zeus?

    Foolish.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You can always opt out to a wonderful world of 10-30% infant mortality. Perhaps the clearest indication of where humanity is headed is the fact that its not force that keeps this acceleration forward; this is what individuals choose en masse. No one insisted that we all have a smartphone which now can track us nearly 24/7 - yet its adoption has been near universal.

    Humanity has certain trends. These are, despite what we may like to think, predictable. And machines are much, much better at predictive analysis than any human has ever been.

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  178. @bjondo

    I dunno, do you enjoy metallurgy of your piping system, the availability of wood through complex logistics channels or the ready availability of food thanks to massive, optimized agricultural projects?
     
    Well, the wood is from a simple delivery system - nearby forest and the massive, optimized ag projects with the various high IQ scientists from Monsanto et al produces bountiful tonnage of trash food stuffs. Also reduces variety.

    Its easy to knock on the many flaws of modernity but it has objective, measurable benefits to society as well, and in introducing the internet, arguably has created an entire new aspect of reality.
     
    The internet as a provider of info and communication hidden by high IQ sorts is nice but replacing social interaction is not and life was very nice without.

    In doing so, too, we may end up creating our replacements but isn’t that the ultimate goal for all life? Is it so terrible to be Chronos, if we are to bring about Zeus?
     

    Foolish.

    You can always opt out to a wonderful world of 10-30% infant mortality. Perhaps the clearest indication of where humanity is headed is the fact that its not force that keeps this acceleration forward; this is what individuals choose en masse. No one insisted that we all have a smartphone which now can track us nearly 24/7 – yet its adoption has been near universal.

    Humanity has certain trends. These are, despite what we may like to think, predictable. And machines are much, much better at predictive analysis than any human has ever been.

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    • Replies: @bjondo

    And machines are much, much better at predictive analysis than any human has ever been.
     
    Machines predicting rely how much on human manipulation, propaganda?

    Yes, infant mortality, the real heart string puller. Abortions are also infant mortality along with depleted uranium and vaccines and modern foods. Sometimes death, modern, high IQ-created deaths, comes slower and more painful and uglier.

    Opting out to the natural world of nature not a world created by high IQs of greed and self serving.

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  179. Talha says:
    @AaronB
    Let them have their day of victory.

    The West was also crowing in it's day of techno ascendancy. It's ungenerous and petty to deny it to Asians when the tables are turned. They worked very hard for this.

    I'm extremely optimistic - even excited - that the West is beginning to see that "technology is overrated", but if we have really decided to shift our efforts away from techno ascendancy let's generously allow Asians their day in the sun.

    Exactly, let them have their time at the material apex; then they can decide whether they like it there or not. We can have a bunch of new inventions with original names in Mandarin. We will benefit from their inventions; well, assuming they don’t create clouds of AI-driven killer nanobots.

    I was just telling a brother what a shame it is that “modern” architecture has started springing up in China’s major cities – so ugly and soulless compared to the classical Chinese architecture with its rich and unique style.

    Interesting thread.

    Peace.

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  180. wayfarer says:
    @Daniel Chieh


    How is carpentry, plumbing, farming IQ measured.
     
    I dunno, do you enjoy metallurgy of your piping system, the availability of wood through complex logistics channels or the ready availability of food thanks to massive, optimized agricultural projects?

    Its easy to knock on the many flaws of modernity but it has objective, measurable benefits to society as well, and in introducing the internet, arguably has created an entire new aspect of reality. In doing so, too, we may end up creating our replacements but isn't that the ultimate goal for all life? Is it so terrible to be Chronos, if we are to bring about Zeus?

    A skilled carpenter, is a skilled geometer.

    Treatise on the design and construction of an hydraulic flute playing machine. The treatise is attributed to ‘Apollonius the carpenter and geometer (أبلنيوس النجار الهندسي)’, who some have identified.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Apollonius-of-Perga

    https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100023698323.0×000003

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    • Replies: @wayfarer
    edit: [previous post]

    Apollonius of Perga, not Apollonius of Tyana.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Perga
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Apollonius-of-Perga
    https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100023493171.0x000002

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  181. myself says:
    @Johnny Smoggins
    "Anyone living somewhere with a large Asian population learns to recognize the hate-fact that Asian women in these relationships generally range from ugly to remarkably ugly"


    I guess you have to tell yourself that to feel better but in fact the ugly, dorky Asian girls end up with ugly, dorky Asian guys. The hot Asian girls prefer White men.

    Agree with regard to blacks though. Only the lowest, most desperate white women go dark.

    I do see, at least where I live, quality White women with Asian guys and that's no problem.

    Asian men in Asia don’t make a big deal of local Asian women who “go white.”

    I think because of 2 factors:

    1) The top-tier local Asian women, like top-tier women everywhere, only want to go with the top-tier men of their own race.
    You see some good-looking local girls with white men, but the real knock-outs are always with their own kind. It’s about genetic promulgation (reproductive success, not really sex) and social status for them and their kids. Since it’s Asia, they naturally gravitate to their own men.

    2) Well, there’s plenty more where she came from! If the white man wants some, it’s not going to dent the supply one bit.

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    • Replies: @Truth

    Asian men in Asia don’t make a big deal of local Asian women who “go white.”
     
    This is not what I have read.
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  182. Yan Shen says:
    @AaronB
    Let them have their day of victory.

    The West was also crowing in it's day of techno ascendancy. It's ungenerous and petty to deny it to Asians when the tables are turned. They worked very hard for this.

    I'm extremely optimistic - even excited - that the West is beginning to see that "technology is overrated", but if we have really decided to shift our efforts away from techno ascendancy let's generously allow Asians their day in the sun.

    My point was less that any particular group would necessarily come out on top and more that different groups of people would end up specializing in areas where they were naturally inclined, once barriers were increasingly removed.

    Although I do argue for the primacy of mathematical over verbal ability, predicting that the Anglosphere will remain the overall leader in the life sciences and medicine isn’t exactly an insignificant thing.

    I do think that hardware trumps software and that manufacturing trumps services, but that’s for a uh follow-up post perhaps.

    You describe my article as mythology written for the purposes of validation, but I mostly see myself as making a relatively conservative set of predictions rooted in HBD and backed up by clearly observable data points, such as the Leiden Rankings I cited, etc.

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  183. wayfarer says:
    @wayfarer
    A skilled carpenter, is a skilled geometer.

    Treatise on the design and construction of an hydraulic flute playing machine. The treatise is attributed to 'Apollonius the carpenter and geometer (أبلنيوس النجار الهندسي)', who some have identified.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Apollonius-of-Perga
    https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100023698323.0x000003

     

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  184. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @TT


    I was about to contact Andreas Schleicher at the OECD because the 2015 PISA scores show Chinese reading skills to be almost as bad as American, which their math and science scores are miles ahead. You’ve save me (and Andreas) the effort. Many thanks.
     
    I wonder if this is due to the difficulty of the Chinese writing system? Taiwan also scored near China in reading, yet Korea and Japan scored higher, and Singapore and Hong Kong were the two highest scoring countries.
     
    The Chinese almost read a foreign language (English) as bad as American...LOL. Shanghai actually scored No.1(2010) & likely again 2015, but after join up with other provinces, China rating goes down near US. Another factor quoted was the test conducted with computer instead of writen paper, some rural students aren't acquainted/ experienced with computer.

    And majority Chinese ethnic Singapore & HK(China) beat all Englishing speaking natives, even Taiwan & Macau, Japan, Korea, EU are above US & UK. Then the Chinese & East Asians Maths & Science are mile ahead. The Chinese & East Asians must have cheated. The EU must have cheated. So Mr Roberts so kind must ask OECD to investigate.

    https://www.tes.com/sites/default/files/pisa_reading_corrected.png

    US PISA Reading 2015

    https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_4f.asp

    Whites: 526
    Asians: 527

    US PISA Reading 2012

    https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2012/pisa2012highlights_5e_1.asp

    Whites: 519
    Asians: 550

    Asians don’t really seem to be at a disadvantage relative to whites on the reading test.

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    • Replies: @TT
    Yes, in fact East Asians are occupying all top ranking in test skewed towards OECD edu system, while education power house US/UK/Aust all ranked lowly, what's happening?

    Shanghai actually top 2012 for all three subjects again, as well as improving 2009 scores to 613 in maths, equivalent to 3 school years ahead of ave pupil.

    China's participation in the 2012 test was limited to Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Macao as separate entities. In 2012, Shanghai participated for the second time, again topping the rankings in all three subjects, as well as improving scores in the subjects compared to the 2009 tests. Shanghai's score of 613 in mathematics was 113 points above the average score, putting the performance of Shanghai pupils about 3 school years ahead of pupils in average countries. Educational experts debated to what degree this result reflected the quality of the general educational system in China, pointing out that Shanghai has greater wealth and better-paid teachers than the rest of China.[32] Hong Kong placed second in reading and science and third in maths.
     
    Is PISA becoming over emphasized on national education policies, esp in EAsia? And these same EAsians dominate IQ ranking again.

    PISA data have "come to increasingly shape, define and evaluate the key goals of the national / federal education system".[7] This implies that those who set the PISA tests – e.g. in choosing the content to be assessed and not assessed – are in a position of considerable power to set the terms of the education debate, and to orient educational reform in many countries around the globe.[7]
     
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  185. myself says:

    All this philosophical discussion about the rising and falling of cultures and civilizations, and we have all collectively (including me) failed to point out something staring us in the face:

    In the recorded history of our human civilization, the past 5 centuries of total dominance by ONE dynamic culture, the “West”, is the aberration, not the norm.

    The overwhelming norm is the simultaneous dynamism and advance of SEVERAL cooperating/competing civilizations, each dynamic and vibrant, and all, albeit separately, advancing human society.

    There have been long historical periods in which all of Eurasia has been active and dynamic, plus North Africa, East Africa, and Central and South America.

    As for the Western period of ascendancy, my take is “Someone had to be first” – First to break into the age of modernity, first to develop science, first to question the staid ideas of the past. That someone was the West, and we have reaped the benefit.

    First, but not solely.

    Being first doesn’t mean that we would maintain an eternal monopoly on power and modernity. England was the first industrial nation, but did not remain the only such country. A good idea is eventually imbibed and internalized by the whole human race.

    Ditto for the useful ideas of Western Civilization. There’s a certain inevitability of Western ways being directly “appropriated” by the entire world.

    And if the West should “lose” its heretofore privileged place? What of it? What is wrong with being but one powerful race, among many? Are we less because others are more?

    Is the Universe zero-sum?

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  186. Truth says:
    @Truth
    You don't have Twinkie's IQ, but you are smart enough to understand the point.

    Well I think he claims a 160

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  187. Truth says:
    @utu

    IQ or the Math/Verbal Split?
     


    False alternative. The answer: neither.

    Japan, China, Korea are at the point they have all what it takes to lead. The world will survive and smoothly will progress even if EU and the US are wiped out form the surface of the Earth. They do not need West anymore.

    It had better happen quickly because none of them have children.

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  188. Truth says:
    @myself
    Asian men in Asia don't make a big deal of local Asian women who "go white."

    I think because of 2 factors:

    1) The top-tier local Asian women, like top-tier women everywhere, only want to go with the top-tier men of their own race.
    You see some good-looking local girls with white men, but the real knock-outs are always with their own kind. It's about genetic promulgation (reproductive success, not really sex) and social status for them and their kids. Since it's Asia, they naturally gravitate to their own men.

    2) Well, there's plenty more where she came from! If the white man wants some, it's not going to dent the supply one bit.

    Asian men in Asia don’t make a big deal of local Asian women who “go white.”

    This is not what I have read.

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  189. @TT
    The one need to call himself intelligence is usually very suspicious.

    You may wish to inform yourself concerning certain facts of Galileo’s trial and house arrest, beginning with 1) He was never killed.
     
    Oops sorry. Blame my childhood story book printed in West. If i have broad band access & time, i will dig out 2000yrs ago China astrologist already discovered solar system in complete details, mass of sun & planets, their orbit radius, and how Pie was derived to 10 decimal places using a string tied to two sharp pins to draw perfect circle, dissect to 1024 equal parts. Abacus wasn't invented yet. And how he come out with all the calculus... ooh...West invented calculus. LoL.

    Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy," namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[50]
    He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
    His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52]
     

    It was not about the sun, or the earth, the prestige of the Jesuits was at stake.
    The Jesuits were not at all interested in the solar system, or the flat earth

    Pietro Redondi, ´Galilei, ketter, De politieke machtsstrijd rond het proces tegen Galileo Galilei, 1633’, 1989, Amsterdam (Galileo eretico, 1983, 1989, Turin).

    ‘politieke machtsstrijd’ = political power struggle, ‘proces’ = trial, ‘ketter’ = heretic

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  190. @Dmitry

    Here I strongly disagree. Chinese philosophy, due to the nature of Chinese language & structure of their thought, simply cannot withstand the comparison with Western tradition, from Anaximander, Pythagoras, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Plotinus, Augustine, Bacon 1, Eriugena, Descartes, Bacon 2, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hume, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Vico, Nietzsche, Marx, Bergson, Heidegger, Spengler, James, Wittgenstein, Cassirer, Freud (as a metaphysician of mind), Popper..

    Western philosophy possesses richness of inquiry in all areas of existence & non-existence which is simply absent from Chinese (and Indian) thought (ethics, epistemology, ontology, aesthetics, political philosophy, social philosophy, early psychology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of history, non-religious metaphysics, education, philosophy of science,..).
     

    Although with disclaimer I have no professional background in philosophy, let alone knowledge of the relevant languages - many great philosophers consider that Ancient Indian philosophy is one of the most respected traditions and some famous philosophers have believed it to be even more profound than Ancient Greek tradition. To discount the Indian philosophy tradition, which was praised by leading philosophers like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche - it seems a very tenuous position.

    I am not “discounting” it. I’ve read great expositions of it authored by Radhakrishnan (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=B21E1496C0CDE537858B7E5AF99D9C4F ) & Dasgupta (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=7567AAE467409E9A3EA24D1DB4986946), along with scholarly works of Eliade, Coomarswamy et al. on various topics, and I’d say Indian thought is profound in metaphysics & narrow in most other areas. Unlike Greek & Western philosophy, it remained mostly an elaboration of religious scriptures, soaked in mythic metaphors & never got off as an independent field.

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  191. @Yan Shen
    Regarding Chinese philosophy, Hegel famously commented that Confucius was "only a man who has a certain amount of practical and worldly wisdom- one with whom there is no speculative philosophy", suggesting that perhaps it would've been better for his reputation if his teachings had never been translated to begin with. Perhaps this isn't uh too surprising given that even by Western standards Hegel was considered a notoriously difficult to read meta-physician...

    https://books.google.com/books?id=bATIDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hegel+confucius+no+speculative+philosophy&source=bl&ots=3hBO6SX8V6&sig=-lmbweZxGQqfkQ0-DsEADs5kBSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDo92Lh9bZAhUhqFQKHf9rAusQ6AEISjAG#v=onepage&q=hegel%20confucius%20no%20speculative%20philosophy&f=false

    I don’t know whether you read it (at least partially), but I would recommend to anyone interested in Chinese thought monumental Wing Tsit Chan’s survey: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=A13880637E7E9F98EF712AE179E38891

    I know there are newer expositions (Van Norden etc), but this classic from 1960s remains my favorite.

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  192. By the way-what about, perhaps, more profound differences between “East” and “West”? I don’t know whether this has been confirmed, but …..

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7882-westerners-and-easterners-see-the-world-differently/


    Westerners and Easterners see the world differently

    Chinese and American people see the world differently – literally. While Americans focus on the central objects of photographs, Chinese individuals pay more attention to the image as a whole, according to psychologists at the University of Michigan, in Ann Arbor, US.

    “There is plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting that Western and East Asian people have contrasting world-views,” explains Richard Nisbett, who carried out the study. “Americans break things down analytically, focusing on putting objects into categories and working out what rules they should obey,” he says.

    By contrast, East Asians have a more holistic philosophy, looking at objects in relation to the whole. “Figuratively, Americans see things in black and white, while East Asians see more shades of grey,” says Nisbett. “We wanted to devise an experiment to see if that translated to a literal difference in what they actually see.”
    ……

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Note that his argument was basically an extended version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis which has not been supported by modern research; in Richard Nisbett's Geography of Thought, his tests found that Chinese-Americans thought as "analytically" as their European counterparts, and vice versa for European citizens who grew up their entire life in East Asia, which highly suggests the result of culture; his belief was that this was almost completely through language.
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  193. bjondo says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    You can always opt out to a wonderful world of 10-30% infant mortality. Perhaps the clearest indication of where humanity is headed is the fact that its not force that keeps this acceleration forward; this is what individuals choose en masse. No one insisted that we all have a smartphone which now can track us nearly 24/7 - yet its adoption has been near universal.

    Humanity has certain trends. These are, despite what we may like to think, predictable. And machines are much, much better at predictive analysis than any human has ever been.

    And machines are much, much better at predictive analysis than any human has ever been.

    Machines predicting rely how much on human manipulation, propaganda?

    Yes, infant mortality, the real heart string puller. Abortions are also infant mortality along with depleted uranium and vaccines and modern foods. Sometimes death, modern, high IQ-created deaths, comes slower and more painful and uglier.

    Opting out to the natural world of nature not a world created by high IQs of greed and self serving.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The proof, as it might be, is in reality itself. There are societies that try to reject aspects of modernity and I researched some of them, but in the end, they basically die one way or another. Can you imagine a society that rejects computers, for example? And they exist in many places, where electronics are still expensive and outside of the reach of the majority. But then the elite use them, and it rapidly becomes both utilitarian as well as a status symbol and as price of access decreases, at least the entire next generation will pursue it. If denied locally, they will emigrate from any channel.

    In many ways, I think its like rejecting guns because, they have a negative effect on a caste-based society that relied on agility and strength. Dysgenic, even. So sure, you could try to pretend that guns don't exist for awhile, but then some other society that used guns will force it upon you.

    All that ever matters is that what works. We no longer live in Max Weber's "enchanted garden" of mystery and distance. Now every advantage is communicated worldwide, and any society that doesn't embrace it falls behind, bleeds membership, and essentially dessicates. Unless you have a way to North Korea your society(with its attendant costs), then its impossible to avoid the changes wrought by technology upon the world and to be forced to play the Red Queen strategy.

    One can mourn what has passed but what is coming is as inevitable, and as unavoidable, as the heat death of the universe.

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  194. j2 says: • Website
    @RudyM
    It's news to me that introversion correlates with weaker verbal skills. Why so many exceptions among writers?

    I see you are a bit sceptical, so let’s refer to James Thomson from the unz review

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lapps-finns-cold-winters-and/

    “These data suggest that the Sámi have the same profile that most people of the world have, i.e., they perform better on spatial than on verbal tests relative to the Caucasoid norm. Both groups are stronger on non-verbal than verbal skills, which might be expected of hunters searching for game in the landscape.”

    You can find by a small literature search confirmation that Blacks and Jews have stronger verbal IQ and weaker spatial IQ. I think is is true to descendants of Anatolian farmers and therefore in the Mediterranean countries. Above you have confirmation that in the North spatial IQ is stronger than verbal. Thomson finds this IQ profile the most common in the world, as East Asians also have this profile.

    There is no question of the fact that East Asians and North Europeans are more introverted, so there is then the correlation. A correlation does not need to mean causation, but in this case there may be a causal connection.

    Some commentary claimed that i make an absurd reasoning and argued, like this one, that verbal IQ of Northern Europeans cannot be lower than spatial since there are so many good writers from these
    populations. That does not invalidate the well-known fact of the IQ profile.

    Introverts make both good writers and good scientists. Even if the average IQ is more tilted to spatial, it does not mean that you cannot find verbally talented people from those countries. Verbal IQ increases from reading, not only from speaking, so you may find that many writers are introverts and have high verbal IQ.

    Counting literary achievements it may look like Northern Europe and East Asia have especially high verbal IQ, but it is a proven fact that these populations have in average weaker verbal IQ than spatial IQ. The verbal IQ is still high, as these populations have high IQ, but exceptional literary achievements do not imply anything of the average verbal IQ in the population.

    Especially, it does not invalidate the proposed argument (not proven) that the average verbal IQ may be lower because of introverted culture.

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  195. j2 says:
    @Dmitry

    East Asians and North Europeans have stronger spatial IQ than verbal IQ. Is this caused by different genes, that is, are there two types of intelligence? Or is this caused by other genetically heritable traits, like character, as we easily can notice that Africans and Southern Europeans are more social, while
     
    This comment reaches a level of ridiculousness and reductio ad absurdum, where reality more or less completely disproves the generalizations. It is not difficult to point out that Northern Europe has produced by far the greatest and most complex works of literature in human history, with the pinnacle achieved in Russian language - and that probably East Asia is not far behind (Tale of Genji, written by a Japanese noblewoman in 11th century, is considered the world's first novel). While in visual/spatial arts, the most successful and high-achieving countries were those three Latin countries of Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, and France).

    You may not mean the same population when you refer to Northern Europe. Russia is large and only the upper part is Northern Europe. I mean the most northern Europe and there the IQ profile is what I said it is. It is not ridiculous and ad absurdum, but a a fact known from IQ tests. Indeed, Russians from Carelia are genetically similar to the most northern European people and probably have similar IQ profile.

    There is no direct connection between average IQ profile of a population and exceptional achievements of the population.

    For more details read what I wrote to RudyM.

    BTW. I inherited a whole series of Russian writers and read all volumes. They are not really the pinnacle of human literature. War and Peace is just like kiosk literature, only longer, but Tolstoy was not Northern, the family moved from Chernigov to Moscow. That is Central-Eastern European.

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  196. @bjondo

    And machines are much, much better at predictive analysis than any human has ever been.
     
    Machines predicting rely how much on human manipulation, propaganda?

    Yes, infant mortality, the real heart string puller. Abortions are also infant mortality along with depleted uranium and vaccines and modern foods. Sometimes death, modern, high IQ-created deaths, comes slower and more painful and uglier.

    Opting out to the natural world of nature not a world created by high IQs of greed and self serving.

    The proof, as it might be, is in reality itself. There are societies that try to reject aspects of modernity and I researched some of them, but in the end, they basically die one way or another. Can you imagine a society that rejects computers, for example? And they exist in many places, where electronics are still expensive and outside of the reach of the majority. But then the elite use them, and it rapidly becomes both utilitarian as well as a status symbol and as price of access decreases, at least the entire next generation will pursue it. If denied locally, they will emigrate from any channel.

    In many ways, I think its like rejecting guns because, they have a negative effect on a caste-based society that relied on agility and strength. Dysgenic, even. So sure, you could try to pretend that guns don’t exist for awhile, but then some other society that used guns will force it upon you.

    All that ever matters is that what works. We no longer live in Max Weber’s “enchanted garden” of mystery and distance. Now every advantage is communicated worldwide, and any society that doesn’t embrace it falls behind, bleeds membership, and essentially dessicates. Unless you have a way to North Korea your society(with its attendant costs), then its impossible to avoid the changes wrought by technology upon the world and to be forced to play the Red Queen strategy.

    One can mourn what has passed but what is coming is as inevitable, and as unavoidable, as the heat death of the universe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bjondo
    The reason for needing weeding. To save mankind.
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  197. @Bardon Kaldian
    By the way-what about, perhaps, more profound differences between "East" and "West"? I don't know whether this has been confirmed, but .....

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7882-westerners-and-easterners-see-the-world-differently/

    Westerners and Easterners see the world differently


    Chinese and American people see the world differently – literally. While Americans focus on the central objects of photographs, Chinese individuals pay more attention to the image as a whole, according to psychologists at the University of Michigan, in Ann Arbor, US.

    “There is plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting that Western and East Asian people have contrasting world-views,” explains Richard Nisbett, who carried out the study. “Americans break things down analytically, focusing on putting objects into categories and working out what rules they should obey,” he says.

    By contrast, East Asians have a more holistic philosophy, looking at objects in relation to the whole. “Figuratively, Americans see things in black and white, while East Asians see more shades of grey,” says Nisbett. “We wanted to devise an experiment to see if that translated to a literal difference in what they actually see.”
    ......

    Note that his argument was basically an extended version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis which has not been supported by modern research; in Richard Nisbett’s Geography of Thought, his tests found that Chinese-Americans thought as “analytically” as their European counterparts, and vice versa for European citizens who grew up their entire life in East Asia, which highly suggests the result of culture; his belief was that this was almost completely through language.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hacienda
    Do you read Chinese? Chinese character reading seems to require a larger focus area than reading
    and English word. Reading English just requires skimming the tops of letters after fluency. It seems to me that a Chinese reader would have to scan up and down and sideways to comprehend a Chinese word even with fluency. Would that become a habit of the eyeball in seeing things? And is this why that it seems difficult to look a Chinese "straight in the eyes"?
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  198. TT says:
    @anonymous
    US PISA Reading 2015

    https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_4f.asp

    Whites: 526
    Asians: 527

    US PISA Reading 2012

    https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2012/pisa2012highlights_5e_1.asp

    Whites: 519
    Asians: 550

    Asians don't really seem to be at a disadvantage relative to whites on the reading test.

    Yes, in fact East Asians are occupying all top ranking in test skewed towards OECD edu system, while education power house US/UK/Aust all ranked lowly, what’s happening?

    Shanghai actually top 2012 for all three subjects again, as well as improving 2009 scores to 613 in maths, equivalent to 3 school years ahead of ave pupil.

    China’s participation in the 2012 test was limited to Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Macao as separate entities. In 2012, Shanghai participated for the second time, again topping the rankings in all three subjects, as well as improving scores in the subjects compared to the 2009 tests. Shanghai’s score of 613 in mathematics was 113 points above the average score, putting the performance of Shanghai pupils about 3 school years ahead of pupils in average countries. Educational experts debated to what degree this result reflected the quality of the general educational system in China, pointing out that Shanghai has greater wealth and better-paid teachers than the rest of China.[32] Hong Kong placed second in reading and science and third in maths.

    Is PISA becoming over emphasized on national education policies, esp in EAsia? And these same EAsians dominate IQ ranking again.

    PISA data have “come to increasingly shape, define and evaluate the key goals of the national / federal education system”.[7] This implies that those who set the PISA tests – e.g. in choosing the content to be assessed and not assessed – are in a position of considerable power to set the terms of the education debate, and to orient educational reform in many countries around the globe.[7]

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous

    Shanghai actually top 2012 for all three subjects again, as well as improving 2009 scores to 613 in maths, equivalent to 3 school years ahead of ave pupil.
     
    I don't find Shanghai all that surprising as it is one the preeminent educational powerhouses of China. In addition, I believe they had a high absentee rate on PISA as well:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/pisa-which-countries-not-to-trust/

    For my part, I don't actually take IQ test very seriously, and I believe any usefulness they may have is very limited. A few weeks ago, I started to look into IQ numbers from Lynn and many others IQ researchers and I began noticing all sorts of weird oddities with how IQ scores are collected, how average scores are designated, and how results aren't weighted by regional population to come up with a "national" IQ score. Then there is the matter of how in the world North Korea is often listed as having an IQ of 105-106. In my mind, IQ scores are supposed to be scores on a test; when was North Korea's IQ tested? Were poor rural North Koreans tested? All of this leads me to be very skeptical of IQ statistics, especially older ones.

    Recent international standardized tests like PISA, timss, ect. seem somewhat better, but again, only so useful. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting that tests like PISA and PIRLS don't show any significant gap in reading scores between Asian and European countries.

    If people are searching for possible explanations for the different attributes of Asians and Euros, then IMO, it might be worthwhile to look into differences in average traits other than IQ, such as personality, temperament, ect.. That is not to assume whether or not these traits are environmental, situational, social, cultural, or genetic in origin. Just to see if they exist and if they have any explanatory power. Just my two cents.
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  199. @myself
    According to the Chinese traditional view, it's the West and not the Rest that's been more in harmony and more aligned with the flows of the Universe these last 500 years, hence the over-all material and even philosophical and artistic success of the West.

    To take that further, as China gradually regains its harmony and equilibrium with the demands of history (history as outward expression of the eternal cosmic flow - Taoist thought), so it experiences significant advance.

    The purported malaise of the West, the thinking goes, is due to having become misaligned with the Universe in the last few decades, but has nothing to do with China - the West is on its own trajectory, whatever that may be.

    As for Japan, they had a winning formula, suitable for a specific era, but then they became hide-bound and unwilling to change, they stuck with their tried and true formula. This is a mistake that those I've spoken to in China are all to conscious to avoid.

    One observation, though, and I think a valid one.

    Japan has not, in recent times, initiated major change from within. The Meiji reforms were a reaction to the West, while the post-WW2 era was again a reaction to defeat at Allied hands. Brilliant reactions to be sure.

    In contrast, while China discarded the Imperial system in response to the needs of modernity, it also had a huge Civil War that destroyed the old social order and gave extreme Communists control. Then it underwent, again from within, the Reform and Opening Era which discredited and removed the ideologues from power.

    Japan's greater success in modernizing means it has not had the revolutions found necessary by China. On the other hand, in spite of many failures, China has shown itself more willing to undergo self-initiated radical change.

    In my opinion China kept the imperial system, as Russia kept the tsarist system.
    Just different names for the rulers.
    Cultures hardly change.
    As a Dutch politician said ‘France is a monarchy with an elected monarch, the Netherlands is a republic with a hereditary head of state’.
    Macron is nicknamed Jupiter.
    Does not Merkel behave as a Kaiser ?
    The USA, still run by a oligarchy of a few rich people, as when the Declaration was signed.
    Belgium, a mess, as a someone with that nationality said ‘Belgium, it does not exist’.
    Flemish and Wallonians still fighting each other.
    Spain, still under fascist rule, as we see in how Madrid behaves toward Barcelona, the Civil War relived.
    Italy resembles the medieval city state mess.
    And so on, and so forth.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Basically, though with significant modifications.
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  200. @jilles dykstra
    In my opinion China kept the imperial system, as Russia kept the tsarist system.
    Just different names for the rulers.
    Cultures hardly change.
    As a Dutch politician said 'France is a monarchy with an elected monarch, the Netherlands is a republic with a hereditary head of state'.
    Macron is nicknamed Jupiter.
    Does not Merkel behave as a Kaiser ?
    The USA, still run by a oligarchy of a few rich people, as when the Declaration was signed.
    Belgium, a mess, as a someone with that nationality said 'Belgium, it does not exist'.
    Flemish and Wallonians still fighting each other.
    Spain, still under fascist rule, as we see in how Madrid behaves toward Barcelona, the Civil War relived.
    Italy resembles the medieval city state mess.
    And so on, and so forth.

    Basically, though with significant modifications.

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  201. Hacienda says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Note that his argument was basically an extended version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis which has not been supported by modern research; in Richard Nisbett's Geography of Thought, his tests found that Chinese-Americans thought as "analytically" as their European counterparts, and vice versa for European citizens who grew up their entire life in East Asia, which highly suggests the result of culture; his belief was that this was almost completely through language.

    Do you read Chinese? Chinese character reading seems to require a larger focus area than reading
    and English word. Reading English just requires skimming the tops of letters after fluency. It seems to me that a Chinese reader would have to scan up and down and sideways to comprehend a Chinese word even with fluency. Would that become a habit of the eyeball in seeing things? And is this why that it seems difficult to look a Chinese “straight in the eyes”?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English. And that's possible, though it is interesting that some of the groupings in Dr. Nisbett’s study such as how the Japanese viewers tended to associate "rabbit" with "grass" and "chicken" with "seed" while his American group associated "rabbit" with "chicken" and "grass" with "seed."

    Incidentaly, I'm reading Dr. Nisbett’s Mindware now. He remains one of the few principled advocates for environmental influences on intellect, someone who can acknowledge that IQ is real and that heredity has a significant component, while also focusing on the cultural and environmental impact on intelligence given neurogenesis and celebral reconfiguration throughout childhood.

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  202. @Hacienda
    Do you read Chinese? Chinese character reading seems to require a larger focus area than reading
    and English word. Reading English just requires skimming the tops of letters after fluency. It seems to me that a Chinese reader would have to scan up and down and sideways to comprehend a Chinese word even with fluency. Would that become a habit of the eyeball in seeing things? And is this why that it seems difficult to look a Chinese "straight in the eyes"?

    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English. And that’s possible, though it is interesting that some of the groupings in Dr. Nisbett’s study such as how the Japanese viewers tended to associate “rabbit” with “grass” and “chicken” with “seed” while his American group associated “rabbit” with “chicken” and “grass” with “seed.”

    Incidentaly, I’m reading Dr. Nisbett’s Mindware now. He remains one of the few principled advocates for environmental influences on intellect, someone who can acknowledge that IQ is real and that heredity has a significant component, while also focusing on the cultural and environmental impact on intelligence given neurogenesis and celebral reconfiguration throughout childhood.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu

    cultural and environmental impact on intelligence
     
    Fortunately we had few comments here that tried to redirect attention to culture under this article whose author missed an opportunity to tell interesting stories about West and East by being lead astray by simpleminded HBD concept. But at least he rejected its most primitive version based on IQ/g and acknowledged that at least the two-axial space based on math and language must be invoked which is a moderate improvement over the g based reductionism.
    , @Truth

    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English
     
    Danny, you just destroyed me. All this time I thought you were actually legit. Your name on your birth certificate is probaly actually "Daniel" instead of Xan-Chol or something.
    , @Hacienda

    Dr. Nisbett’s study such as how the Japanese viewers tended to associate “rabbit” with “grass” and “chicken” with “seed” while his American group associated “rabbit” with “chicken” and “grass” with “seed.”
     
    To me its clear that rabbit-chicken go together. Not so clear that grass-seed go together.
    So I get where the Japanese are coming from. The more fabulous take that Dr. Nisbett is taking, I don't know. I'd have to read the book and find out more about the Japanese K-12 educational system.
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  203. Joe Webb says:

    all of this helps to explain Oriental Despotism. The Chinese and Asians generally cannot Think about social phenomena except with numbers. Hence, as we used to say Red China or N. Korea are despotisms.

    Asians cheat in college at about 5 times the rate of Whites…I think that was reported at Unz somewhere.

    Turn the world into Oriental Despotism, which is its tendency anyway, from the ME to S. America mestizos to Western Asia, and on and on. The only genuinely humane folks are Whites, who take That way too far. We are all Equal, the saviourist psychology of idiots first.

    Asians could not care less about democratic standards and free speech. And they seem very interested in money, much more so than whites.

    I asked two different Chinese young gals about their apparent preference for white men. Here in Menlo Park and Palo Alto….in separate incidents they both said the same thing. White guys treat you better, for Asian men it’s all business.

    Yellow Peril.

    Joe Webb

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  204. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @TT
    Yes, in fact East Asians are occupying all top ranking in test skewed towards OECD edu system, while education power house US/UK/Aust all ranked lowly, what's happening?

    Shanghai actually top 2012 for all three subjects again, as well as improving 2009 scores to 613 in maths, equivalent to 3 school years ahead of ave pupil.

    China's participation in the 2012 test was limited to Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Macao as separate entities. In 2012, Shanghai participated for the second time, again topping the rankings in all three subjects, as well as improving scores in the subjects compared to the 2009 tests. Shanghai's score of 613 in mathematics was 113 points above the average score, putting the performance of Shanghai pupils about 3 school years ahead of pupils in average countries. Educational experts debated to what degree this result reflected the quality of the general educational system in China, pointing out that Shanghai has greater wealth and better-paid teachers than the rest of China.[32] Hong Kong placed second in reading and science and third in maths.
     
    Is PISA becoming over emphasized on national education policies, esp in EAsia? And these same EAsians dominate IQ ranking again.

    PISA data have "come to increasingly shape, define and evaluate the key goals of the national / federal education system".[7] This implies that those who set the PISA tests – e.g. in choosing the content to be assessed and not assessed – are in a position of considerable power to set the terms of the education debate, and to orient educational reform in many countries around the globe.[7]
     

    Shanghai actually top 2012 for all three subjects again, as well as improving 2009 scores to 613 in maths, equivalent to 3 school years ahead of ave pupil.

    I don’t find Shanghai all that surprising as it is one the preeminent educational powerhouses of China. In addition, I believe they had a high absentee rate on PISA as well:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/pisa-which-countries-not-to-trust/

    For my part, I don’t actually take IQ test very seriously, and I believe any usefulness they may have is very limited. A few weeks ago, I started to look into IQ numbers from Lynn and many others IQ researchers and I began noticing all sorts of weird oddities with how IQ scores are collected, how average scores are designated, and how results aren’t weighted by regional population to come up with a “national” IQ score. Then there is the matter of how in the world North Korea is often listed as having an IQ of 105-106. In my mind, IQ scores are supposed to be scores on a test; when was North Korea’s IQ tested? Were poor rural North Koreans tested? All of this leads me to be very skeptical of IQ statistics, especially older ones.

    Recent international standardized tests like PISA, timss, ect. seem somewhat better, but again, only so useful. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting that tests like PISA and PIRLS don’t show any significant gap in reading scores between Asian and European countries.

    If people are searching for possible explanations for the different attributes of Asians and Euros, then IMO, it might be worthwhile to look into differences in average traits other than IQ, such as personality, temperament, ect.. That is not to assume whether or not these traits are environmental, situational, social, cultural, or genetic in origin. Just to see if they exist and if they have any explanatory power. Just my two cents.

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  205. bjondo says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    The proof, as it might be, is in reality itself. There are societies that try to reject aspects of modernity and I researched some of them, but in the end, they basically die one way or another. Can you imagine a society that rejects computers, for example? And they exist in many places, where electronics are still expensive and outside of the reach of the majority. But then the elite use them, and it rapidly becomes both utilitarian as well as a status symbol and as price of access decreases, at least the entire next generation will pursue it. If denied locally, they will emigrate from any channel.

    In many ways, I think its like rejecting guns because, they have a negative effect on a caste-based society that relied on agility and strength. Dysgenic, even. So sure, you could try to pretend that guns don't exist for awhile, but then some other society that used guns will force it upon you.

    All that ever matters is that what works. We no longer live in Max Weber's "enchanted garden" of mystery and distance. Now every advantage is communicated worldwide, and any society that doesn't embrace it falls behind, bleeds membership, and essentially dessicates. Unless you have a way to North Korea your society(with its attendant costs), then its impossible to avoid the changes wrought by technology upon the world and to be forced to play the Red Queen strategy.

    One can mourn what has passed but what is coming is as inevitable, and as unavoidable, as the heat death of the universe.

    The reason for needing weeding. To save mankind.

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  206. utu says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English. And that's possible, though it is interesting that some of the groupings in Dr. Nisbett’s study such as how the Japanese viewers tended to associate "rabbit" with "grass" and "chicken" with "seed" while his American group associated "rabbit" with "chicken" and "grass" with "seed."

    Incidentaly, I'm reading Dr. Nisbett’s Mindware now. He remains one of the few principled advocates for environmental influences on intellect, someone who can acknowledge that IQ is real and that heredity has a significant component, while also focusing on the cultural and environmental impact on intelligence given neurogenesis and celebral reconfiguration throughout childhood.

    cultural and environmental impact on intelligence

    Fortunately we had few comments here that tried to redirect attention to culture under this article whose author missed an opportunity to tell interesting stories about West and East by being lead astray by simpleminded HBD concept. But at least he rejected its most primitive version based on IQ/g and acknowledged that at least the two-axial space based on math and language must be invoked which is a moderate improvement over the g based reductionism.

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  207. Joe “Anatoly is a kebab” Webb.

    Your predictive capabilities have been tested, and…found wanting.

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  208. denk says:
    @TT
    Malla dissappear for some time already, but Denk will be here soon.

    Im sojourning to my meeting with zhou gong now.

    Barring unforeseen circumstances, might be back here, as spectator perhaps,

    hhhhhh

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  209. Jeff77450 says:

    I don’t understand why everyone gushes about the Chinese. Does anyone doubt that without western investment & technology, to include upwards of $1-trillion of intellectual property theft, that they’d still be sweating the next rice harvest? (Exaggeration for effect).

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    • Replies: @TT
    China will be foolish not to do that to expedite their rise & prosperity. When a developing country cracked down on copyrights under US pressure, it cost so much & dampen progress. My gov make I. T. progress & business modernization so costly bcos of strict copyright enforcement. Which motivate an biz upgrading with $10k vs $5 pirated s/w?

    The west came out with a system called Patent & IP rights, and they published their findings in details to ensure they have the best ground to sue anyone infringing their dominant fields.

    Others juz screen through these vast trove of treasures, & improved from there. Japan, Korea & US allies have risen fast probably under some US blessing.

    I doubt US is more morally kind or honest not to abuse this system, but advocate only to protect its own interest as it had more to lose, further leading with its 5eyes that spy on everyone 7/24.

    There was once an article told France found it too coincident that US always published few days before France invention release, so they decided every high tech should only converse through hardcopy, and it works.

    China only started to publish papers that it deems having commercial interest to them bcos they are getting deeper into globalization web. But i believe many top technology are not published, esp military applicable one, until condition tilt to their favour. They also producing many good & cheap products that have copyright lapse.

    Small nation simply loose out. Flash memory was dev by a small company called Trek2000. Everyone copy blatantly till this day. Trek has been sueing everywhere for last 2decades, and decided its futile against giants, so all new inventions juz sold to Toshiba. They are OEM for all Toshiba Flash memory.

    20yrs ago, when flash drive was only 16~32MB, 2 young Chinese engineers tried to convince us to support their 2GB flash invention that will revolutionize commercial HDD(biggest was Seagate 2GB?) & PC storage(juz plugin any dummy PC anywhere & run all s/w inside flash). Later, big flash mem started to roll out, today its 128GB, still nowhere i see these 2 guys company or name.

    Creative also suing everywhere for its Sound Blaster sound card, MP3 IP... Apple eventually agreed to settle out of court with $100M, on condition its used for suing other companies. Another had dev wifi touchscreen tablets for logistic & medical usage running on WinCE decade before similar iPad & Android tablet appear. These are tip of iceberg.

    Big eat small, jungle law. So don't need pretend to take moral high ground, soon West will start copying China FSR rail(some patented China technology to their dismay), Quantum, Supercomputer, Elect Vehicle, Pebble Nuclear Reactor, A. I., ....etc.

    In my understanding, West FDI in China is always insignificant, esp US has intentionally discourage FDI to block China rise for decades with its BS of debt collapsing propaganda, while falsely hyping India potential as counter to China. HK, Singapore, Taiwan, Asia are the consistent top FDI countries. More important is the knowhow transfer from these Asia countries, esp Spore was a mecca for China to pick up proven skills.

    From January to July this year 2017, the top ten nations and regions regarding investment in China (according to the actual input of foreign capital) are as follows: Hong Kong (USD52.57b), Taiwan Province (USD3.26b), Singapore (USD2.81b), Japan (USD1.84b), U.S.A. (USD1.78b), R.O.K.(USD1.75b), Netherlands (USD1.36b), Germany (USD1.24b) , U.K. (USD890m) and Denmark (USD610m), total of which accounted to USD68.1b, accounting for 94.4% of total actual use of foreign investment in the country, down by 6.7% year on year.
     
    http://images.mofcom.gov.cn/english/201801/20180104095707631.jpg
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  210. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English. And that's possible, though it is interesting that some of the groupings in Dr. Nisbett’s study such as how the Japanese viewers tended to associate "rabbit" with "grass" and "chicken" with "seed" while his American group associated "rabbit" with "chicken" and "grass" with "seed."

    Incidentaly, I'm reading Dr. Nisbett’s Mindware now. He remains one of the few principled advocates for environmental influences on intellect, someone who can acknowledge that IQ is real and that heredity has a significant component, while also focusing on the cultural and environmental impact on intelligence given neurogenesis and celebral reconfiguration throughout childhood.

    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English

    Danny, you just destroyed me. All this time I thought you were actually legit. Your name on your birth certificate is probaly actually “Daniel” instead of Xan-Chol or something.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    My name is obviously not Daniel. I'm not an idiot who self-identifies. Like many Chinese, my actual name has meaning and implies the hopes and wishes of my parents to my future.

    I spoke Chinese at the same time I learned to speak English(from birth, basically), but as a written language, Chinese was more challenging to learn, especially in an environment where I'm not immersed in it.

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  211. @Truth

    I do, though I learned Chinese after I learned English
     
    Danny, you just destroyed me. All this time I thought you were actually legit. Your name on your birth certificate is probaly actually "Daniel" instead of Xan-Chol or something.

    My name is obviously not Daniel. I’m not an idiot who self-identifies. Like many Chinese, my actual name has meaning and implies the hopes and wishes of my parents to my future.

    I spoke Chinese at the same time I learned to speak English(from birth, basically), but as a written language, Chinese was more challenging to learn, especially in an environment where I’m not immersed in it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    So you don't use one of those cute Anglo nicknames like "Bobby" or "Jackie", like Chan kon-Sang does?



    https://notednames.com/Movies/Actor/Jackie-Chan-Birthday-Real-Name-Age-Weight-Height/
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  212. There are two types of verbal intelligence or two emphatic ends for it:

    - to understand and apply concepts correctly; to create new ones [hopefully useful & factual-based]

    - to memorize/grasp the ”correct way” to write [ortography/grammar] and size of vocabulary.

    The first one seems more practical, heuristic-based, objectively useful while the second seems more useful to signal social and/or ideological status as well to grasp social commands, for example, write ”correctly’ in that or this language.

    Seems one of the great problem of verbal IQ tests is that they simply ignore the idiossincrasies of each language, so at priori, appear to be quite relative if you are great in your rare mother tongue or if you cannot be capable to learn properly another language, for example, french language.

    But, maybe would be interesting analyse how precise/factual and comprehensive a language has been if it is compared to another to symbolize reality [and its individual elements] because we can have a very complex ancient and rare language but not so useful and even complicated to be learnt if the fundamental end of communication is itself in the best/clean/reciprocal/efficient ways as possible.

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  213. voicum says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    A very good article (although, it could be shorter) & along the lines of what I've been thinking all the time.

    Just, I think that author has conflated various types of intelligences, re fields he was writing about. Or perhaps we need imagination or other term & intelligence is not enough?

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, "the same" (I won't even address the field of experimental physics). History has shown us that most important physicists in past 300 years were not nearly as good in mathematics & vice versa. For example, Einstein, who is one of 3-4 greatest physicists in history, has not possessed comparable mathematical abilities. Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_priority_dispute#General_relativity_3 ) but was realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein's primacy.

    Feynman in one of the examples in the article. As I recall, he said something like: " Physics is to mathematics what is sex to masturbation." Clearly, and this is a position of most physicists- I am a theoretical physicist- we frequently treat our mathematical friends condescendingly.

    2. what about different areas of mathematics? Isn't it possible, or probable, that different types of intelligences would produce great achievers in number theory, but not in topology? Or take other math areas.

    3. engineering, along with computer science, seems to me altogether different set of fields.

    Be as it may, this is one of rare & I hope fecund articles that will have replaced rather dull idolization of fossilized IQ debate.

    maybe you just do not know enough mathematics.

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  214. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    My name is obviously not Daniel. I'm not an idiot who self-identifies. Like many Chinese, my actual name has meaning and implies the hopes and wishes of my parents to my future.

    I spoke Chinese at the same time I learned to speak English(from birth, basically), but as a written language, Chinese was more challenging to learn, especially in an environment where I'm not immersed in it.

    So you don’t use one of those cute Anglo nicknames like “Bobby” or “Jackie”, like Chan kon-Sang does?

    https://notednames.com/Movies/Actor/Jackie-Chan-Birthday-Real-Name-Age-Weight-Height/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    My Chinese name has homonym in English, so there's no real reason for it. I do have a rather flattering nickname given to me by a black guy who I helped with, which was pretty amusing; he coupled my last name to rhyme with a honorific and seemed surprised that no one ever had thought of that before. In that sense of "IQ", blacks do seem to be remarkably glib with sounds.
    , @Talha
    Or Leroy?
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  215. utu says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    A very good article (although, it could be shorter) & along the lines of what I've been thinking all the time.

    Just, I think that author has conflated various types of intelligences, re fields he was writing about. Or perhaps we need imagination or other term & intelligence is not enough?

    First objection: theoretical physics & mathematics are not, more or less, "the same" (I won't even address the field of experimental physics). History has shown us that most important physicists in past 300 years were not nearly as good in mathematics & vice versa. For example, Einstein, who is one of 3-4 greatest physicists in history, has not possessed comparable mathematical abilities. Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_priority_dispute#General_relativity_3 ) but was realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein's primacy.

    Feynman in one of the examples in the article. As I recall, he said something like: " Physics is to mathematics what is sex to masturbation." Clearly, and this is a position of most physicists- I am a theoretical physicist- we frequently treat our mathematical friends condescendingly.

    2. what about different areas of mathematics? Isn't it possible, or probable, that different types of intelligences would produce great achievers in number theory, but not in topology? Or take other math areas.

    3. engineering, along with computer science, seems to me altogether different set of fields.

    Be as it may, this is one of rare & I hope fecund articles that will have replaced rather dull idolization of fossilized IQ debate.

    Yet, it was he who formulated General Relativity, and not immensely more mathematically gifted David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest 20th C mathematician. True, Hilbert, after discussions with Einstein, came to the equations almost immediately realistic/fair enough to admit Einstein’s primacy.

    Einstein wanted to perform the same trick he did in Special Relativity where he inverted reasoning of Lorentz and derived Lorentz transforms form a postulate that velocity of light is invariant plus a trivial postulate that laws of physics are maintained in inertial systems. This he published in 1905 w/o as single reference presumably claiming that he was not aware of Lorentz and furthermore of Poincare work. Only after WWI when English translation of the 1905 paper was published Lorentz was acknowledged but not attributed as inspiration, meaning that Einstein still claimed he did not know of Lorentz work. The trick was that by postulating speed of light invariance the question of ether was rendered superfluous.

    He wanted to accomplish a similar feat with gravitation and render it superfluous so no questions about its nature and the spooky action at distance would be asked anymore. With the equivalence principle he transformed the problem to geometric problem of space. This he could not solve mathematically. So Marcel Grossman came to the rescue and did most of the math but then they get stuck with the final equation which they could not formulate nor derive. So Hilbert was approached and indeed he solved the problem and decided to publish. He showed some results to Einstein who decided to publish it w/o acknowledging Hilbert. And then came historians who started to create a myth of great Einstein and decided to erase Hilbert from the picture just like they erases Lorentz and Poincare. Some manuscripts were destroyed and some altered.

    http://www.znaturforsch.com/aa/v59a/s59a0715.pdf
    a crucial part of the printer’s proofs of Hilbert’s paper had been cut off by someone, a fact not mentioned in the paper by Corry, Renn, and Stachel, the conclusion drawn by Corry, Renn, and Stachel is untenable and has no probative value. I rather will show that the cut off part of the proofs suggests a crude attempt by some unknown individual to falsify the historical record.

    Orwell’s “He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” is very apt here. The history narrative is being retold by those who control the present in order to control the future by altering the past.

    Just like British Empire found it very useful to construct a myth of an ultimate genius out of the crank and kook Isaac Newton similarly Jews in the beginning of 20 century created an ultimate inscrutable genius out of skillful and unscrupulous plagiarist Albert Einstein.

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  216. @Truth
    So you don't use one of those cute Anglo nicknames like "Bobby" or "Jackie", like Chan kon-Sang does?



    https://notednames.com/Movies/Actor/Jackie-Chan-Birthday-Real-Name-Age-Weight-Height/

    My Chinese name has homonym in English, so there’s no real reason for it. I do have a rather flattering nickname given to me by a black guy who I helped with, which was pretty amusing; he coupled my last name to rhyme with a honorific and seemed surprised that no one ever had thought of that before. In that sense of “IQ”, blacks do seem to be remarkably glib with sounds.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    Well that's nice.
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  217. jjj says:

    How is software programming verbally loaded vs. visual spatially loaded?

    @yan shen

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  218. Factorize says:

    Genetic enhancement of IQ is likely already occurring in China.
    (From what I understand, this would be illegal or at least by common agreement unacceptable in the US.)

    The M/V tilt of East Asians and more specifically presumably the M/V tilt of East Asian men could become yet even more tilted with such IQ enhancement. The implications of this for East Asian society should now be of substantial research interest. It does not seem far fetched to imagine that maximizing math intelligence could lead to pronounced autistic behaviors possibly resulting in a complete lack of interest in reproduction. Such risk would likely greatly increase as the estimated theoretical maximum of human IQ of roughly 1500 was approached.

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    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Troll: utu
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I think that you should not learn your neuroscience from memes.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Anyway, worth addressing a bit more into:

    1) At the moment, we know of some genes which, taken in combination, may have some effect on IQ.

    2) We are not at the point of being able to CRISPR such things.

    3) "Intelligence" is complex, and while IQ is a decent broad metric, it cannot account for many issues which influence final performance.

    An excellent example of this are executive function issues are not well accounted for in IQ tests - earlier, someone mentioned a woman who was stressed out by exams under timed pressure even though she was otherwise intelligent. We might consider the parts of her brain that process information to be well-formed and capable of producing results, however, the limbic parts of the brain involving stress overpower her ability to engage the relevant neurons to produce results for the exam.

    Another example would be individuals defined as having ADHD - they may have all of the necessary mental parts in order to perform, but cannot focus well. On the other hand, they appear to have a slight creative advantage in spite of the lowered working memory. Autism itself appears to involve stress on the "systemizing part" of the brain, possibly by damaging connectivity and disengaging it further from social portions of the brain. It is unrelated to sexual interest, although the reduction in the ability to engage or recognize social cues obviously has downsides in normal life including romantic pursuit.

    It should be noted that although they may be considered as "disorders", they are all parts of normal function which in some instances may be advantageous. You cannot simply upscale something and expect a higher performance; neurochemical upscaling/flooding is a feature of a lot of serious mental disorders and extraneous drug use. It does not, as a rule, improve overall performance: someone on LSD might be more creative in a certain sense, but it cannot be considered as an overall, consistent improvement in function.

    We're a long way off from "improving the brain" in how you suggest.

    , @Yan Shen
    Could we ever uh enhance the IQ of existing individuals rather than merely edit the genomes of potential future humans? If so, I'd love to see an IQ 1500 enhanced Ta Nehisi Coates going toe to toe with a uh IQ 1500 enhanced John Derbyshire. It would be like seeing two real life terminator T-3000s duking it out for supremacy...
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  219. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    My Chinese name has homonym in English, so there's no real reason for it. I do have a rather flattering nickname given to me by a black guy who I helped with, which was pretty amusing; he coupled my last name to rhyme with a honorific and seemed surprised that no one ever had thought of that before. In that sense of "IQ", blacks do seem to be remarkably glib with sounds.

    Well that’s nice.

    Read More
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  220. Talha says:
    @Truth
    So you don't use one of those cute Anglo nicknames like "Bobby" or "Jackie", like Chan kon-Sang does?



    https://notednames.com/Movies/Actor/Jackie-Chan-Birthday-Real-Name-Age-Weight-Height/

    Or Leroy?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Leroy Li is kinda swag.
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  221. Joe Webb says:

    I do not understand your Anatoly kebab crypsis

    Maybe that is cuz your English and Chinese wants poetry, or what is called in English sensibility.

    Funny, I went to the doctor today and the Chinese doc said, O you are so easy to talk to…white guys are way ahead of you chink men when it comes to your own women. How does that make you feel….more totalitarian?

    How do you account for the Oriental Despotism in China, etc. which will never change.?

    How about a straight answer instead of your crooked-chinkisms. Also, your picture written lingo is so backward compared to an alphabet. That may help explain your race’s deficits in thinking other than numbers.

    We will throw you out soon.

    Joe Webb

    Read More
    • Troll: utu
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Thank you for your contribution to Unz humor.
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  222. @Factorize
    Genetic enhancement of IQ is likely already occurring in China.
    (From what I understand, this would be illegal or at least by common agreement unacceptable in the US.)

    The M/V tilt of East Asians and more specifically presumably the M/V tilt of East Asian men could become yet even more tilted with such IQ enhancement. The implications of this for East Asian society should now be of substantial research interest. It does not seem far fetched to imagine that maximizing math intelligence could lead to pronounced autistic behaviors possibly resulting in a complete lack of interest in reproduction. Such risk would likely greatly increase as the estimated theoretical maximum of human IQ of roughly 1500 was approached.

    I think that you should not learn your neuroscience from memes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Factorize
    Thank you for replying.

    I am interested in your opinion from the Asian perspective on this.
    I realize that this is a difficult topic to talk about, though it is important enough to give it an honest try.

    The M/V tilt also applies to men and women especially at the top end of achievement.
    Even at 0.01% ability level the gender splits between the tilts are very large. 0.01% is only 3 SD;
    it is expected that there are 100 SD of IQ.

    Considering the research evidence, enhancing IQ would reasonably pose a risk of having men and women being essentially unable to communicate with each other. If such issues are difficult now, then there might be a point in the future in which it became impossible.

    Genetic enhancement of intelligence is clearly possible. American companies have made a special note of mentioning that they feel such enhancement does not conform to social norms.

    The autistic risk involved when those with high IQ reproduce is painfully evident in Silicon Valley. It has been described as an epidemic. This resulted simply through selection and random recombination. An honest dialogue about the reproductive risks involved among those with high IQ
    especially those with a math tilt seems entirely appropriate. Tragically, it is the very lack of communicative ability that has allowed this problem to drift forward.

    China has been reported to have embraced widescale PGD. It would seem to be highly advisable to consider what risks might be involved before such risks became all too evident.
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  223. @Joe Webb
    I do not understand your Anatoly kebab crypsis

    Maybe that is cuz your English and Chinese wants poetry, or what is called in English sensibility.

    Funny, I went to the doctor today and the Chinese doc said, O you are so easy to talk to...white guys are way ahead of you chink men when it comes to your own women. How does that make you feel....more totalitarian?

    How do you account for the Oriental Despotism in China, etc. which will never change.?

    How about a straight answer instead of your crooked-chinkisms. Also, your picture written lingo is so backward compared to an alphabet. That may help explain your race's deficits in thinking other than numbers.

    We will throw you out soon.

    Joe Webb

    Thank you for your contribution to Unz humor.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TT
    Im always amuse by your forever short & humor reply to stupid troll.
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  224. @Factorize
    Genetic enhancement of IQ is likely already occurring in China.
    (From what I understand, this would be illegal or at least by common agreement unacceptable in the US.)

    The M/V tilt of East Asians and more specifically presumably the M/V tilt of East Asian men could become yet even more tilted with such IQ enhancement. The implications of this for East Asian society should now be of substantial research interest. It does not seem far fetched to imagine that maximizing math intelligence could lead to pronounced autistic behaviors possibly resulting in a complete lack of interest in reproduction. Such risk would likely greatly increase as the estimated theoretical maximum of human IQ of roughly 1500 was approached.

    Anyway, worth addressing a bit more into:

    1) At the moment, we know of some genes which, taken in combination, may have some effect on IQ.

    2) We are not at the point of being able to CRISPR such things.

    3) “Intelligence” is complex, and while IQ is a decent broad metric, it cannot account for many issues which influence final performance.

    An excellent example of this are executive function issues are not well accounted for in IQ tests – earlier, someone mentioned a woman who was stressed out by exams under timed pressure even though she was otherwise intelligent. We might consider the parts of her brain that process information to be well-formed and capable of producing results, however, the limbic parts of the brain involving stress overpower her ability to engage the relevant neurons to produce results for the exam.

    Another example would be individuals defined as having ADHD – they may have all of the necessary mental parts in order to perform, but cannot focus well. On the other hand, they appear to have a slight creative advantage in spite of the lowered working memory. Autism itself appears to involve stress on the “systemizing part” of the brain, possibly by damaging connectivity and disengaging it further from social portions of the brain. It is unrelated to sexual interest, although the reduction in the ability to engage or recognize social cues obviously has downsides in normal life including romantic pursuit.

    It should be noted that although they may be considered as “disorders”, they are all parts of normal function which in some instances may be advantageous. You cannot simply upscale something and expect a higher performance; neurochemical upscaling/flooding is a feature of a lot of serious mental disorders and extraneous drug use. It does not, as a rule, improve overall performance: someone on LSD might be more creative in a certain sense, but it cannot be considered as an overall, consistent improvement in function.

    We’re a long way off from “improving the brain” in how you suggest.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Factorize
    The current state of the art in IQ GWAS has revealed 10% of the variance in human intelligence.
    There is thought to be 100 SD of IQ.
    10% is 10 SD or 150 IQ points.

    Most SNPs for IQ are fairly common so simply selecting embryos (not CRISPRing) would result in very large enhancement of IQ.

    Autism has been found to be positively correlated with IQ in recent GWAS.
    What I found interesting is that even at the top end of the intelligence curve (without genetic engineering) autistic like traits start to appear. If this is what happens at +5-7 SD, it is reasonable to wonder what might happen at +10-20 SD or higher.

    It is notable that the Genius sperm bank apparently had to close down because when people were actually given the opportunity to have children with the genes of a genius, they decided the risks involved (e.g., autism) outweighed the benefits. This might be our future. People simply might choose again to enhance other features than IQ.
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  225. Truth says:
    @Talha
    Or Leroy?

    Leroy Li is kinda swag.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Agree - it's got almost a comic-book secret identity ring to it with the alliteration.

    By day he is Leroy Li - unassuming High-IQ geneticist.

    By night he is "The Red Panda"!

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  226. Talha says:
    @Truth
    Leroy Li is kinda swag.

    Agree – it’s got almost a comic-book secret identity ring to it with the alliteration.

    By day he is Leroy Li – unassuming High-IQ geneticist.

    By night he is “The Red Panda”!

    Read More
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  227. Factorize says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I think that you should not learn your neuroscience from memes.

    Thank you for replying.

    I am interested in your opinion from the Asian perspective on this.
    I realize that this is a difficult topic to talk about, though it is important enough to give it an honest try.

    The M/V tilt also applies to men and women especially at the top end of achievement.
    Even at 0.01% ability level the gender splits between the tilts are very large. 0.01% is only 3 SD;
    it is expected that there are 100 SD of IQ.

    Considering the research evidence, enhancing IQ would reasonably pose a risk of having men and women being essentially unable to communicate with each other. If such issues are difficult now, then there might be a point in the future in which it became impossible.

    Genetic enhancement of intelligence is clearly possible. American companies have made a special note of mentioning that they feel such enhancement does not conform to social norms.

    The autistic risk involved when those with high IQ reproduce is painfully evident in Silicon Valley. It has been described as an epidemic. This resulted simply through selection and random recombination. An honest dialogue about the reproductive risks involved among those with high IQ
    especially those with a math tilt seems entirely appropriate. Tragically, it is the very lack of communicative ability that has allowed this problem to drift forward.

    China has been reported to have embraced widescale PGD. It would seem to be highly advisable to consider what risks might be involved before such risks became all too evident.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Honestly with a population of over 1.38 billion, I think a population decline of a few hundred million over the long run in mainland China wouldn't be too bad of a thing...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  228. Yan Shen says:
    @Factorize
    Genetic enhancement of IQ is likely already occurring in China.
    (From what I understand, this would be illegal or at least by common agreement unacceptable in the US.)

    The M/V tilt of East Asians and more specifically presumably the M/V tilt of East Asian men could become yet even more tilted with such IQ enhancement. The implications of this for East Asian society should now be of substantial research interest. It does not seem far fetched to imagine that maximizing math intelligence could lead to pronounced autistic behaviors possibly resulting in a complete lack of interest in reproduction. Such risk would likely greatly increase as the estimated theoretical maximum of human IQ of roughly 1500 was approached.

    Could we ever uh enhance the IQ of existing individuals rather than merely edit the genomes of potential future humans? If so, I’d love to see an IQ 1500 enhanced Ta Nehisi Coates going toe to toe with a uh IQ 1500 enhanced John Derbyshire. It would be like seeing two real life terminator T-3000s duking it out for supremacy…

    Read More
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  229. Yan Shen says:
    @Factorize
    Thank you for replying.

    I am interested in your opinion from the Asian perspective on this.
    I realize that this is a difficult topic to talk about, though it is important enough to give it an honest try.

    The M/V tilt also applies to men and women especially at the top end of achievement.
    Even at 0.01% ability level the gender splits between the tilts are very large. 0.01% is only 3 SD;
    it is expected that there are 100 SD of IQ.

    Considering the research evidence, enhancing IQ would reasonably pose a risk of having men and women being essentially unable to communicate with each other. If such issues are difficult now, then there might be a point in the future in which it became impossible.

    Genetic enhancement of intelligence is clearly possible. American companies have made a special note of mentioning that they feel such enhancement does not conform to social norms.

    The autistic risk involved when those with high IQ reproduce is painfully evident in Silicon Valley. It has been described as an epidemic. This resulted simply through selection and random recombination. An honest dialogue about the reproductive risks involved among those with high IQ
    especially those with a math tilt seems entirely appropriate. Tragically, it is the very lack of communicative ability that has allowed this problem to drift forward.

    China has been reported to have embraced widescale PGD. It would seem to be highly advisable to consider what risks might be involved before such risks became all too evident.

    Honestly with a population of over 1.38 billion, I think a population decline of a few hundred million over the long run in mainland China wouldn’t be too bad of a thing…

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    Previous comment directed at Yan Shen. Sorry for the confusion.

    "Why do you think a population decline would stop there, especially if having children does not “add up.”?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  230. Factorize says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Anyway, worth addressing a bit more into:

    1) At the moment, we know of some genes which, taken in combination, may have some effect on IQ.

    2) We are not at the point of being able to CRISPR such things.

    3) "Intelligence" is complex, and while IQ is a decent broad metric, it cannot account for many issues which influence final performance.

    An excellent example of this are executive function issues are not well accounted for in IQ tests - earlier, someone mentioned a woman who was stressed out by exams under timed pressure even though she was otherwise intelligent. We might consider the parts of her brain that process information to be well-formed and capable of producing results, however, the limbic parts of the brain involving stress overpower her ability to engage the relevant neurons to produce results for the exam.

    Another example would be individuals defined as having ADHD - they may have all of the necessary mental parts in order to perform, but cannot focus well. On the other hand, they appear to have a slight creative advantage in spite of the lowered working memory. Autism itself appears to involve stress on the "systemizing part" of the brain, possibly by damaging connectivity and disengaging it further from social portions of the brain. It is unrelated to sexual interest, although the reduction in the ability to engage or recognize social cues obviously has downsides in normal life including romantic pursuit.

    It should be noted that although they may be considered as "disorders", they are all parts of normal function which in some instances may be advantageous. You cannot simply upscale something and expect a higher performance; neurochemical upscaling/flooding is a feature of a lot of serious mental disorders and extraneous drug use. It does not, as a rule, improve overall performance: someone on LSD might be more creative in a certain sense, but it cannot be considered as an overall, consistent improvement in function.

    We're a long way off from "improving the brain" in how you suggest.

    The current state of the art in IQ GWAS has revealed 10% of the variance in human intelligence.
    There is thought to be 100 SD of IQ.
    10% is 10 SD or 150 IQ points.

    Most SNPs for IQ are fairly common so simply selecting embryos (not CRISPRing) would result in very large enhancement of IQ.

    Autism has been found to be positively correlated with IQ in recent GWAS.
    What I found interesting is that even at the top end of the intelligence curve (without genetic engineering) autistic like traits start to appear. If this is what happens at +5-7 SD, it is reasonable to wonder what might happen at +10-20 SD or higher.

    It is notable that the Genius sperm bank apparently had to close down because when people were actually given the opportunity to have children with the genes of a genius, they decided the risks involved (e.g., autism) outweighed the benefits. This might be our future. People simply might choose again to enhance other features than IQ.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Most SNPs for IQ are fairly common so simply selecting embryos (not CRISPRing) would result in very large enhancement of IQ.


     

    IIRC embryo selection was attempted but for some reason did not result in significant increases; at any rate, embryo selection is not common enough to make that much of a population difference - its only within reach of a certain socioeconomic segment of the population, and conceiving "naturally" is much more common and fun.

    Autism seems to be related to reduction of communication from portions of the brain to the other, the intelligence increase has been suggested from the "insulation" from other traffic. However, this has limits in improvement, you can only make a message so clear and reducing the "semantic network" of meaning too much is likely an excellent way to destroy any divergent thinking/creativity at all. By that, the connectivity of the brain is partly how creativity works - information is stored on the brain in many locations, and insights are often found through loose association rather than travelling along well-myelinated neurons(this is probably how LSD increases creativity, by relaxing the usual checks on logic and inhibitions).

    I don't think the human brain is optimized at all, but I also don't think our current understanding is too poor to do much with it, at least much that cannot already be done with extragenous factors postnatally.

    , @Hippopotamusdrome

    the Genius sperm bank apparently had to close down because ... they decided the risks involved (e.g., autism) outweighed the benefits.

     

    No.

    Genius sperm banks no longer exist. Well-known Repository for Germinal Choice closed in 1999
    ...
    Adolph Hitler...racial purity...Aryan race...Nazis...Aryans...pure blood...ideal Aryan...racist...Nazi Germany

     

    That's why.
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  231. WhiteWolf says:
    @Truth

    Assigned to write a story about what was going on at home, Terry went from room to room and made detailed lists of the contents.”
     
    Sounds like a barrel of monkeys.

    Social science might better be described these days as social justice, as so-called scientists often merely reinforce their ideological priors and preach politically correct, sanctimonious bullshit. Ideology masquerading as science, alas.
     
    Not nearly as much as physics. NASA is fake, and the "universe" is geocentric.

    Mathematically adept nerds are the real value creators, while their more extroverted, socially dominant, and verbally glib counterparts transfer that underlying value to themselves as business executives. Engineers are great at creating things for value for others to consume. Lawyers and businessmen on the other hand seem mostly proficient at extracting wealth created by others for themselves.
     
    This is senseless. Wealth cannot be extracted from a column of mathematical computations, or even a garage invention. Wealth is created when these products find their physical value in the market. That's why Edison is more famous, and influential today, than Tesla.

    Good virgin effort though, my friend, superior to most of what is printed here already. Minor quibble though, don't write "conclusion" on your work. It's a op/ed piece, not a dissertation.

    It was Tesla who brought us AC power to our homes while Edison was pushing for DC which is a lot less efficient over long distances. Tesla did plenty of practical things with his genius and deserves to be recognized much more than he is.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Tesla indeed invented the electric engine that could run on alternating current.
    That gave the great break trough in transporting electricity over long distances, with a high, effiicient, tension.
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  232. TT says:
    @Jeff77450
    I don't understand why everyone gushes about the Chinese. Does anyone doubt that without western investment & technology, to include upwards of $1-trillion of intellectual property theft, that they'd still be sweating the next rice harvest? (Exaggeration for effect).

    China will be foolish not to do that to expedite their rise & prosperity. When a developing country cracked down on copyrights under US pressure, it cost so much & dampen progress. My gov make I. T. progress & business modernization so costly bcos of strict copyright enforcement. Which motivate an biz upgrading with $10k vs $5 pirated s/w?

    The west came out with a system called Patent & IP rights, and they published their findings in details to ensure they have the best ground to sue anyone infringing their dominant fields.

    Others juz screen through these vast trove of treasures, & improved from there. Japan, Korea & US allies have risen fast probably under some US blessing.

    I doubt US is more morally kind or honest not to abuse this system, but advocate only to protect its own interest as it had more to lose, further leading with its 5eyes that spy on everyone 7/24.

    There was once an article told France found it too coincident that US always published few days before France invention release, so they decided every high tech should only converse through hardcopy, and it works.

    China only started to publish papers that it deems having commercial interest to them bcos they are getting deeper into globalization web. But i believe many top technology are not published, esp military applicable one, until condition tilt to their favour. They also producing many good & cheap products that have copyright lapse.

    Small nation simply loose out. Flash memory was dev by a small company called Trek2000. Everyone copy blatantly till this day. Trek has been sueing everywhere for last 2decades, and decided its futile against giants, so all new inventions juz sold to Toshiba. They are OEM for all Toshiba Flash memory.

    20yrs ago, when flash drive was only 16~32MB, 2 young Chinese engineers tried to convince us to support their 2GB flash invention that will revolutionize commercial HDD(biggest was Seagate 2GB?) & PC storage(juz plugin any dummy PC anywhere & run all s/w inside flash). Later, big flash mem started to roll out, today its 128GB, still nowhere i see these 2 guys company or name.

    Creative also suing everywhere for its Sound Blaster sound card, MP3 IP… Apple eventually agreed to settle out of court with $100M, on condition its used for suing other companies. Another had dev wifi touchscreen tablets for logistic & medical usage running on WinCE decade before similar iPad & Android tablet appear. These are tip of iceberg.

    Big eat small, jungle law. So don’t need pretend to take moral high ground, soon West will start copying China FSR rail(some patented China technology to their dismay), Quantum, Supercomputer, Elect Vehicle, Pebble Nuclear Reactor, A. I., ….etc.

    In my understanding, West FDI in China is always insignificant, esp US has intentionally discourage FDI to block China rise for decades with its BS of debt collapsing propaganda, while falsely hyping India potential as counter to China. HK, Singapore, Taiwan, Asia are the consistent top FDI countries. More important is the knowhow transfer from these Asia countries, esp Spore was a mecca for China to pick up proven skills.

    From January to July this year 2017, the top ten nations and regions regarding investment in China (according to the actual input of foreign capital) are as follows: Hong Kong (USD52.57b), Taiwan Province (USD3.26b), Singapore (USD2.81b), Japan (USD1.84b), U.S.A. (USD1.78b), R.O.K.(USD1.75b), Netherlands (USD1.36b), Germany (USD1.24b) , U.K. (USD890m) and Denmark (USD610m), total of which accounted to USD68.1b, accounting for 94.4% of total actual use of foreign investment in the country, down by 6.7% year on year.

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  233. TT says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Thank you for your contribution to Unz humor.

    Im always amuse by your forever short & humor reply to stupid troll.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I've played too much League of Legends to be really bothered by trolls anymore. I don't know if you're familiar with that game, but there's a Chinese joke about it too:

    "You start with five enemies. Try not to increase that number as you play."

    I think its also the base by which 王者荣耀 bases its gameplay from, but I'm not as familiar with that game.

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  234. The Scalpel says: • Website

    The most important issue going forward is the reproductive rate in advanced societies of the high math/verbal types. In primitive societies, this is high, but as societies become advanced, it plunges. Japan isan example.

    As for rewarding high math/verbal types, why? Why should we as humans encourage more advanced weapons, more smartphones, more AI?

    Read More
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  235. @Factorize
    The current state of the art in IQ GWAS has revealed 10% of the variance in human intelligence.
    There is thought to be 100 SD of IQ.
    10% is 10 SD or 150 IQ points.

    Most SNPs for IQ are fairly common so simply selecting embryos (not CRISPRing) would result in very large enhancement of IQ.

    Autism has been found to be positively correlated with IQ in recent GWAS.
    What I found interesting is that even at the top end of the intelligence curve (without genetic engineering) autistic like traits start to appear. If this is what happens at +5-7 SD, it is reasonable to wonder what might happen at +10-20 SD or higher.

    It is notable that the Genius sperm bank apparently had to close down because when people were actually given the opportunity to have children with the genes of a genius, they decided the risks involved (e.g., autism) outweighed the benefits. This might be our future. People simply might choose again to enhance other features than IQ.

    Most SNPs for IQ are fairly common so simply selecting embryos (not CRISPRing) would result in very large enhancement of IQ.

    IIRC embryo selection was attempted but for some reason did not result in significant increases; at any rate, embryo selection is not common enough to make that much of a population difference – its only within reach of a certain socioeconomic segment of the population, and conceiving “naturally” is much more common and fun.

    Autism seems to be related to reduction of communication from portions of the brain to the other, the intelligence increase has been suggested from the “insulation” from other traffic. However, this has limits in improvement, you can only make a message so clear and reducing the “semantic network” of meaning too much is likely an excellent way to destroy any divergent thinking/creativity at all. By that, the connectivity of the brain is partly how creativity works – information is stored on the brain in many locations, and insights are often found through loose association rather than travelling along well-myelinated neurons(this is probably how LSD increases creativity, by relaxing the usual checks on logic and inhibitions).

    I don’t think the human brain is optimized at all, but I also don’t think our current understanding is too poor to do much with it, at least much that cannot already be done with extragenous factors postnatally.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Factorize
    Thank you for responding.
    I am interested to hear your impressions of the near term prospects for intelligence enhancement. Not

    My guess is that such enhancement is already feasible in a limited sense. The calculations suggest that 1-2M scale GWAS will unlock the entire IQome. With these variants it is only a question of embryo selection which has been in clinical use for almost 50 years.

    If each chromosome has 1000 variants and there are 50 good variant difference between chromosome strands, then there would be 10 SD difference in selecting the highest PGS for the complete set. That would entail a large amount of selection, though apparently a 1 in 10 selection would still give 1 SD. It might take some time for people to fully appreciate how large an enhancement effect could occur with simple selection.

    This clearly will have enormous implications for humanity. Some people simply might want to kick this down the road. We might just have to pretend that the future has not already arrived for a while longer.

    I find it highly relevant to note that a consumer genomics service has launched that offers polygenic trait selection. However, they have specifically excluded intelligence enhancement. The reason given was that such enhancement is not considered olitically acceptable.

    Height is now probably the polygenic phenotype that has been best characterized to date and its genetics in many ways is thought to be similar to that of IQ. It seems entirely possible now that polygenic selection could add 2-3 SD or about a foot to the adult height of a selected embryo.

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  236. @TT
    Im always amuse by your forever short & humor reply to stupid troll.

    I’ve played too much League of Legends to be really bothered by trolls anymore. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that game, but there’s a Chinese joke about it too:

    “You start with five enemies. Try not to increase that number as you play.”

    I think its also the base by which 王者荣耀 bases its gameplay from, but I’m not as familiar with that game.

    Read More
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  237. The Scalpel says: • Website

    Why do you think a population decline would stop there, especially if having children does not “add up.”?

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  238. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Yan Shen
    Honestly with a population of over 1.38 billion, I think a population decline of a few hundred million over the long run in mainland China wouldn't be too bad of a thing...

    Previous comment directed at Yan Shen. Sorry for the confusion.

    “Why do you think a population decline would stop there, especially if having children does not “add up.”?

    Read More
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