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“Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself.”
Confucius, Analects.

We Greco-Christians seek personal liberation from worldly bondage and prioritize abstract rights like unfettered, irresponsible public speech, export these values as ‘human rights’ and use them to justify invading smaller countries. That does not impress the Chinese, says Randall Nadeau⁠1, “Christian-based Western values like radical autonomy of the individual, the soul in a transcendent relationship to the world, the prioritizing of the individual over the family and the prioritizing of the individual over the state are alien to the Chinese. The West defines human rights as ‘freedom from’ oppressive tendencies of the family and state and grounds human rights in the fundamental equality of all persons. Thus, human rights are equated with human liberation–liberation of the autonomous individual from the restrictive community.”

The Chinese prioritize the family over the individual and the state over the family, they seek liberation through fulfilment of their communal responsibilities and see material well being as a primary right and public speech as secondary. They prioritize[⁠2] morality over law, community over individuals, the spiritual over the material, responsibility over rights, national well-being over democracy, order over freedom, this life over the next, harmony over conflict, civilization over impoverishment and family over social class. Their creation of a xiaokang society next year will, in their eyes, be the greatest human rights achievement in history.

To be clear, they have no fundamental disagreement with us after all, Confucius[⁠3] himself insisted that all rights begin with individual responsibility, “From the Son of Heaven down to the mass of the people, all must consider the cultivation of the person the root of everything else” and Mao[⁠4] said, “By political human rights we mean the rights of freedom and democracy.” In 2010, PM Wen Jiabao explained, “Science, democracy, rule of law, freedom and human rights are not concepts unique to capitalism. Rather, they are common values pursued by all mankind throughout history, the fruits of human civilization. It is only that–at different historical stages and in different countries–they are achieved through different means and in different forms.”

National priorities may differ but treaty obligations don’t so, since both China and the US have ratified The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, let’s compare their compliance with that document’s strictures. Since we hear much criticism of China’s human rights and little of our own, it is sobering to begin with Jimmy Carter’s reminder,⁠[5]Cruel and Unusual Record. By JIMMY CARTER JUNE 24, 2012. New York Times “The United States is abandoning its role as the global champion of human rights. Revelations that top officials are targeting people to be assassinated abroad, including American citizens, are only the most recent, disturbing proof of how far our nation’s violation of human rights has extended. This development began after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and has been sanctioned and escalated by bipartisan executive and legislative actions, without dissent from the general public. As a result, our country can no longer speak with moral authority on these critical issues.” In the examples, below, I have not sought to be even-handed but, rather, to show that we, the world’s leading human rights critic, rarely observe even the basic rights we swore to uphold.

The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Preamble: The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights was voted into existence on December 10, 1948 so that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. In the World Values Survey⁠[6]World Values Survey Wave 6: 2010-2014, V55.- How much freedom of choice and control over own life?, more Chinese than Americans said they felt free.

2. Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty. China’s liangshaoyikuan policy–privileging minorities, preferencing their education and showing greater leniency towards their offenses–contrasts with our treatment of minorities.

3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person. Says Jimmy Carter⁠[7]Idem, “Revelations that top officials are targeting people to be assassinated abroad, including American citizens, are only the most recent, disturbing proof of how far our nation’s violation of human rights has extended.” While we must judge China’s 1979 attack on Vietnam severely, America’s attacks on other nations are more numerous and less justified.

4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms. Forced labor abuses are common in American prisons and on its farms.

5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Jimmy Carter: “Our government’s counterterrorism policies are now clearly violating at least 10 of the 30 Articles, including the prohibition against cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”

6. Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law. We hold prisoners in Guantanamo specifically to avoid recognizing them as persons before the law. We trust our legal system half as much as the Chinese trust theirs.

7. All are equal before the law and are entitled, without any discrimination, to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination. The US executes one-thousand people and imprisons two million without trial every year and does not prosecute its criminal elite. China does not.

8. Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law. America denied effective remedy to Guantanamo prisoners, Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange and Edward Snowden and imprisons and executes more blacks than South Africa at the height of apartheid, mostly without trial.

9. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile. The US kidnaps and imprisons hundreds of people at home and abroad each year.

10. Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him. Carter: “Recent legislation has made legal the president’s right to detain a person indefinitely on suspicion of affiliation with terrorist organizations. This law violates the right to freedom of expression and to be presumed innocent until proved guilty, two other rights enshrined in the declaration. In addition to American citizens’ being targeted for assassination or indefinite detention.”

11.1. Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defense. (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed. America holds twenty-five percent of the world’s prison population, mostly without trial, including forty in Guantánamo Bay who committed no penal offense, some of whom have been tortured a hundred times.

12. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. The US operates 360-degree, 24-hour surveillance and police home invasions regularly kill innocent homeowners. Attacks upon citizens’ honor and reputation are carried out daily in and by our media.

13.1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. America’s secret, no-fly list denies this right to 50,000 citizens. China’s hukou publicly deny citizens the right to change residency without permission.

14.1. Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution. (2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations. The US actively seeks to deny Edward Snowden and Julian Assange the right to asylum from persecution.

15.1. Everyone has the right to a nationality. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. 16.1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses. (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State. American families break up twice as often as Chinese.

16.1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses. (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State. American families break up twice as often as Chinese.

17.1. Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property. Without adducing evidence or proving a crime, American police[⁠8] take more money from citizens each year than robbers.

18. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. China restricts public practice of religion but in the US, says Carter, “Popular state laws permit detaining individuals because of their appearance, where they worship, or with whom they associate.”

19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. America observes this better than China, though US censorship is narrowing the gap.

20.1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association. (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association. The US flunked its United Nations ‘peaceful assembly’ inspection while Chinese protesters hold a hundred thousand public protests each year.

21.1. Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives. (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country. (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures. Neither Chinese nor American voters directly elect their heads of State, but Chinese prisoners retain the right to vote and voter participation is sixty-two percent in China compared to fifty-five percent in the US. Twenty percent of Americans approve of their government’s policies compared to ninety percent of Chinese.

22. Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international cooperation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality. China will close this gap by 2021 when every citizen will have health and old age insurance and access to first class schools.

23.1. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment. (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work. (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection. (4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests. China’s labor participation rate is much higher than ours, its union membership rate is double ours and its wages have outpaced GDP growth for forty years while ours have lagged it.

24. Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay. Chinese employees have sixteen annual, paid, mandatory vacation days. Americans have none.

25.1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. The US Department of Housing and Urban Development estimates there are roughly half a million homeless people in the United States on any given night, in a country with 18 million empty homes. China has none. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. American has five times more hungry children⁠[9]Hunger in America: Compromises and coping strategies. Feeding America, 2014. than China, more survive childbirth and all will live longer, healthier lives than ours.

26.1. Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit. (2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace. (3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children. Chinese kids finish high school three years ahead of ours and even their poor children outscore ours academically.

27.1. Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits. (2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author. America’s intellectual property rights are stronger than China’s but Chinese participation in the arts is higher.

28. Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized. Since World War II, America has deprived thirty-five countries of this right by invading them.

29.1. Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible. (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society. (3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

30. Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Postscript: In 1997, China ratified the UN International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and the US has yet to do so. In 2014 President Xi⁠[10]Xi Jinping at UNESCO Headquarters. 2014/03/28 urged the UN⁠[11]June 2017, HRC35, “The contribution of development to the enjoyment of all human rights” and the resolution was adopted 30 to 13. A follow-up study will advance China’s ‘development first’ agenda and its resolution on “The right to food” (A/HRC/34/L.21). to consider “People’s collective freedom to push forward and create a community of shared future for all mankind” and proposed food and development as primary human rights. The US opposed the motion, “We reject any suggestion that development goals could permit countries to deviate from their human rights obligations and commitments. Attempting to reframe the relationship between development and human rights in a way that deviates from consensus texts adopted by UN Member States.” The UN Human Rights Council voted 30-13 in favor of China’s proposal.

Notes

[1] Randall Nadeau, Confucianism and the Problem of Human Rights

[2] Core Values of Chinese Civilisation. Chen Lai

[3] The Great Learning

[4] On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People

[5] Cruel and Unusual Record. By JIMMY CARTER JUNE 24, 2012. New York Times

[6] World Values Survey Wave 6: 2010-2014, V55.- How much freedom of choice and control over own life?

[7] Idem

[8] Law enforcement took more stuff from people than burglars did last year. Christopher Ingraham. Washington Post, November 23, 2015

[9] Hunger in America: Compromises and coping strategies. Feeding America, 2014.

[10] Xi Jinping at UNESCO Headquarters. 2014/03/28

[11] June 2017, HRC35, “The contribution of development to the enjoyment of all human rights” and the resolution was adopted 30 to 13. A follow-up study will advance China’s ‘development first’ agenda and its resolution on “The right to food” (A/HRC/34/L.21).

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: American Media, China, China/America 
The China/America Series
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  1. Great article. Loved how you framed each example.

    But you need an editor. A paragraph is replicated in full. A carriage return is in order at point 10. Even so, I will share it.

    Thanks for putting this together.

    • Agree: Rabbitnexus
    • Replies: @Realist
  2. Matthew says:

    The history of China shows that, without democracy, China makes big bloody changes every few centuries, only when things already went so bad that change is needed at any cost

  3. Silver and golden rule put individuality centre stage – ‘others’ have no direct input into your self-centred rule setting. The real rule should be:

    Do unto others, as others would wish to be done unto themselves. If you don’t know, ask. If you can’t ask, don’t act. If you must act, follow the golden rule.

    • Replies: @Rabbitnexus
  4. MBlanc46 says:

    Quite simply, there is no such thing as a human right, a right—something that others are obliged to recognize—that one possesses simply by virtue of being human. It’s not surprising that the midwits at the UN say that there are, but the UN declaring that something is so is a prima facie reason for believing it to be not so. We’d have a much better chance of improving life on earth if we abandoned such fantasies.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Rabbitnexus
  5. Lo says:

    While I have serious concerns and criticism about the US, especially about crony capitalism, I think you have really hyperbolic statements about China Mr. Roberts. Chinese are not freer than the Americans, they are just more practical. In some ways, their personal development is stunted by the autocratic state and nationalist propaganda as well; so they don’t even understand what freedom is. You tell them about Uighur issue for example, and they retort back saying Uighurs weren’t subject to the one-child policy, and thus freer than Han Chinese. It makes no sense, but it is just an example of stunted development caused by the paternalist state.

    If all your claims were correct, the Chinese middle and upper classes would not spend hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of dollars to send their children to the US or emigrate to Canada. This alone proves your statements do not reflect reality, as certainly Chinese who live in China can appreciate life in China better than you.

    The US does have really deep issues. Both on the political and social sides, and it will likely get worse over time since the country is run by an unwilling and alienated elite. But it doesn’t make China the beacon of freedoms. China still has seriously corrupt business and political classes, has terrible inequality issues and has a government that thinks it makes sense to put millions of people in internment camps because few among those people happened to break the laws. I can further the commentary, but my point is clear I think.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @peterAUS
  6. Xytil says:

    I agree with the general sentiment of this article, and the idea of unfettered individualism really makes me wanna puke my guts out. But let me tell you that the Chinese do not prioritize morality over anything at all. I even doubt the concept of morality is a discernable entity in the insect-like psyche of the Chinese.
    If you have doubts, then by no means should you take my word for it. Read “Ways that are Dark”, or even just go on liveleak and observe these ant-like people mindlessly run children and pregnant women over, slowly at pedestrian crossings. Watch them scoop out foul gutter oil out of manholes and sell it to restaurants for human consumption. Watch their unimaginably horrific industrial accidents wipeout scores of people in electrocutions, flammable gasses burning hundreds of them at concerts, exploding speeding fuel trucks wiping out dozens of cars on highways, and entire districts levelled by panoramic explosions such as happened in Tianjin in 2015–the casualties of which were very underestimated. I could go on forever. I even knew an American who lived there for 7 years. China is not a nice place. Still, America deserves to fail.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Vidi
    , @Whitewolf
    , @eah
  7. What are these “rights” of which you speak? Sounds like some kind of religious dogma… abstract, arbitrary and moralistic. Power from faith backed up by brute enforcement. If the individual or the state happens to be an unbeliever, or a partial believer, rights become just another game of coercion.

  8. Totally brilliant article and totally most important selection of the theme.

    • Agree: Iris
  9. Anonymous[356] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s funny how all the China-apologists on this degenerating corpse of what was once an excellent dissident information site just seem utterly blind to how China is doing or preparing to do all the shit they claim to hate the American “Anglo-Zionist Empire” for; the suppression of civil protest and free flow of information (to the point of legitimate re-education camps) and the consolidation of political dynasties, the short-sighted reliance of usurious practices to bloat their GDP projections and use of empty debt to fund superfluous and self-aggrandizing landmarks, the naked ambitions of global imperialism if not outright hegemony. To say nothing of the well-known laziness and refusal to admit to underperformance endemic to Asian law enforcement bodies (e.g. if a murderer isn’t found in two weeks, a death gets quietly reclassified as a suicide) and all in all I rather find it impossible to stop my eyes from rolling into my skull just trying to get through the first paragraph of this bugman-worshipping dreck.

  10. This rosy picture of the state of human rights in China as compared to the US is marred by following information :

    1) Persecution of Tibetans :

    “China’s oppression of Tibetans has dramatically increased.”

    https://newint.org/…/chinas-oppression-of-tibetans-has-dramaticall…

    2) Persecution of Uyghurs :

    “Uyghurs Persecution & China’s Secrecy”, National Review

    https://www.national review.com/…china-persecution-of-uyghur-…

    3) Persecution of Falun Gong :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

    4) Animal Rights :

    “Animal welfare and rights in China.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_welfare_and_rights_in_China

    Then there is the small problem of Chairman Mao having killed 70 million of his own people but still not having been condemned for it by the present regime.

    Lots of things to do before we can idealize China !

  11. Your opening thesis is absurd.

    Christian based Western values do not prioritize the individual over the family.

    So I quit reading.

    The collective ad-hom about “radical autonomy” was an immediate red flag. Moderates like Mao, they just commit mass murder at world record scale.

    But those radical, radical Western radicals… bad people. I can tell by your ad-homs. They’re bad. lol.

    • Replies: @anon
  12. Rotus says:

    Please move to small village in China. Don’t come back.

  13. Rotus says:

    Jimmy Carter? Really?

    Thanks for the laughs.

  14. FKA Max says:

    “In Mainland China, there are 46[1] criminal offences eligible for the death penalty. Many of these offences are non-violent and are considered economic criminal offences.[2][3] These are defined in the criminal law of China, which comprehensively identifies criminal acts and their corresponding liabilities.[4]” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_offences_in_China

    China named ‘world’s top executioner’ as global rate falls

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/12/china-named-worlds-top-executioner-as-global-rate-falls

    Inside China’s capital punishment system of secret executions

  15. @Matthew

    Big bloody changes every few centuries? Cp. Europe 1790s, 1860s, WW1, Great Depression and WW2,; America 1776-1780s, 1861-1865, WW2 and Great Depression?, Vietnam War, 9/11 and on and on….

  16. When you compare civilizations, you’d better get your definitions straight.

    ‘Human rights’ is an oxymoron. Humans cannot create their own rights. Who gets to define those rights? Who gets to enforce them? Who gets to change them? To whom do they apply? Humanity is not self-defined. Only its arrogant sense of entitlement allows it to bestow on itself some amorphous set of so-called rights, and those usually without any related set of responsibilities.

    True rights are in accord with a value system called morality. If morality is to be consistent and objective, then it can only come from an external source, i.e., God, The Logos. Otherwise, it amounts to nothing more than subjective power plays, supported by philosophical houses of sand, and papered over with feelgood semantic games about rights, human or otherwise.

    Ever since the Enlightenment, Western man has been digging himself an increasingly deeper hole. We now have the folly of human rights, separation of church and state, equality, and all the rest. But it’s all a lie. In point of fact, the secular religious cult called leftism is now the State Religion for most of Western Civilization.

    Secular man pretends to disbelieve in a god. But this is yet another lie. In the final analysis, secular man does indeed have God…. he just unreservedly hates Him. It is any wonder that Western Civilization is headed down the crapper?

    • Replies: @anno nimus
    , @FB
    , @Rogue
  17. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:

    Good article .

  18. I beg to differ: in the first line “Greco-Christian” is the opposite of the contemporary “west”. There is nothing “greek”, “christian” or even remotely “classical” left in the West. I would arbitrarily call this “opposite”: misanthropic atheism… As for the Chinese, only relatively recently have they neglected Confucianism and Taoism in favor of “western” intellectual constructs. China, regardless of its long experience in suffering and humiliation, is apparently and evidently more humane than the “west”, i.e. a much less crime-dominated society.

    • Replies: @Vianney
  19. China’s liangshaoyikuan policy–privileging minorities, preferencing their education and showing greater leniency towards their offenses–contrasts with our treatment of minorities.

    How stupid are you?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  20. The American (not exactly “Western”) adaptation is great for rapid expansion and taking away things from others but does not take spectacularly well to the urban situation.

    East Asians (Japanese moreso) are bred over untold generations for living together on limited space;
    smile a lot, apologize a lot, never incommodate anyone without very good reason – in short, supremely un-American 😀
    The suppression of intraspecific aggression MAY subdue “innovation” somewhat – that remains to be seen.

    Any guesses as to whether the future will hold more cities or more frontiers?

    (for background I recommend Konrad Lorenz and Irenaeus Eybl-Eibesfeldt;
    the interplay of genes and religion is also fascinating 😉

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  21. Sean says:
    @Matthew

    For decades people have been predicting unrest in China as if it was politically unstable, and a closed system. Revolutions happen when the leadership of a country are seen as selling out to foreign states. Foreign policy always has precedence over domestic considerations. China’s power relative to other great powers is increasing by leaps and bounds. China’s leadership will start a war before they will capitulate to Western demands, because copping out to rival nations is suicide for an elite. Respecting the human rights of domestic troublemakers like what

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/11/if-you-enter-a-camp-you-never-come-out-inside-chinas-war-on-islam

    https://twitter.com/XJscholars/status/1031604234536603648/photo/1

    Checkpoints and searches, but not for Han. It’s pretty much like the way the West Bank Palestinians are treated, but on a much larger scale.

  22. So, as long as you publicly deny rights, it’s ok.

  23. China’s liangshaoyikuan policy–privileging minorities, preferencing their education and showing greater leniency towards their offenses–contrasts with our treatment of minorities.

    Can any reasonably knowledgeable person reply to this with anything else than a hard belly laugh?

    Forced labor abuses are common in American prisons and on its farms.

    Last time I checked, China was running way more sweatshops than America. And let’s not forget its famous suicide nets and mine collapses.

    I’m sorry, this article is just way too stupid to read fully.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  24. sally says:

    Godfree Roberts has written a classic.. something we should all use as a reference in our future comments and dealings. I put this excellent article (hopefully edited a little, and its enumerations of 31 universal rights, as opposed to John Locke’s inalienable rights into a short summary.. hope you don’t mind?

    The West defines human rights (as ……‘freedoms from’ ..n*types of oppression………….),
    liberty as individual independence from the restrictive community.
    see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_Man and

    The Chinese define rights (as ..an ordered, prioritized, paired hierarchy “n*X > n*Y),
    liberty as derivatives of a series of individual self fulfilments.

    The Chinese expect the creation of a xiaokang society to be the greatest human rights achievement in history.

    “access to science and the fruits of human civilization, individual participation in society, and equal treatment guaranteed by rule of law, constitute the package of rights pursued by all mankind throughout human civilization.

    I agree the USA is abandoning ..human rights.. the humans it governs and the guarantees its constitution gave in exchange for allegiance of the governed to the authority of nation state power.

    https://www.bartleby.com/essay/John-Locke-And-The-Declaration-Of-The-F34TZ99CPLLX
    John Locke’s writings were the basis for the declaration of independence (American British colonies vs the colonial British Corporate governments in America), and Thomas Paine was called in to change inalienable rights of man [appearing in the 1776 Declaration of Independence] into mere contractual promises [appearing in the post constitution amendments, 1789] those who govern (the post Revolution ex British Colonial Aristocrats did this in their constitution <==search: regime change by ratification as a means to make a mere proposal to govern as a replacement of a sitting government with the proposed government.

    15 years ago, a search on the internet for human rights would produce John Locke in nearly every article returned, but today, unless you know to search by John Locke you will not find his name. The internet has been googooized, bastardized, and made into a instrument of corporate propaganda and directed at targets designed to achieve a silent oppression suitable to the corporate warlords.

    Suggest to search the rights of man John Locke
    and then compare that search to a search of the rights of man.. no mention of John Locke appears, but it was the writings of John Locke that produce the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as the outcome of the Glorious Revolution that took place in 1688 England.. more than just listing the rights, Locke made it clear these rights were inalienable by mankind.. man himself could not give away those rights and no state, no government no authority could deny any living human his or her inalienable human rights.

    It is inalienable human rights that mankind must establish with those who govern.. It is inalienable human rights that will reverse who has the final authority: mankind and his or her inalienable human rights or the rules created by the ruthless few who govern..

    Those who govern and the authority by which they govern must be and always remain subordinate to any authority anywhere derived from or by an act of mankind.. the GooGooized internet would lead one to believe that private property rights came from this (what a bunch of hogwash, property rights came from those Jewish bankers, slavers, and corporate traders in power in England that use the government's law making powers to create property rights from thin air. note: I use duckduckgo.com for my search engine..
    The bankers, slavers and corporate traders engaged the power of the government to achieve two things important to Aristocracy:
    1. private permanent ownership of the feudal estate so the estate could be handed down by device of will and kept within the feudal family; little feudal lords must remain wealthy least they have no power and
    2. support for the feudal lord owned industries in the cities. The lord investors needed: a) the serfs to move to towns to labor in the factories, and b) to boot the pauper serfs who lived on these massive feudal estates to quit making their own clothes and growing their own food on the feudal estates, because they are not in the market if they make and grow their own. The rich Jewish bankers, slavers and traders in England and elsewhere used the rule of law (government) to force these poor folks off the feudal farms where the poor could make their own clothes and grow their own food, so the paupers would be forced to work in the factories and use their factory earnings to buy food and clothes in a factory owned store. Read about the enclosure acts (1550 to 1900) ..

    the point is, if humanity allows governments to define human rights those who use governments to control humanity will always retain all human rights, and dole out a few liberties to the governed masses, but if humanity dictates to governments, humanity will retain all its rights, and license but a few of them to governments subject to non abuse.

  25. Realist says:
    @Scott C. Dunn

    But you need an editor. A paragraph is replicated in full. A carriage return is in order at point 10. Even so, I will share it.

    Need an editor??? It takes five minutes to edit this article. Is he too lazy or stupid? This happens a lot with many writers.

  26. I realise the US has its problems, but I’ll believe China has become a paragon of virtues when I see caravans of thousands lining up to move there.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Biff
  27. China’s liangshaoyikuan policy–privileging minorities, preferencing their education and showing greater leniency towards their offenses–contrasts with our treatment of minorities

    A recent New York Times article, ‘With Pressure and Persuasion, China Deflects Criticism of Its Camps for Muslims’, provides some useful background:

    China has been fighting criticism that it has detained as many as one million members of Muslim ethnic minorities in indoctrination camps in its western Xinjiang region. But at the two-day conclave in early March, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation—a group of 57 nations that has been a vocal defender of the Rohingyas and Palestinians—handed Beijing a significant victory.

    In a resolution on protecting the rights of Muslim minorities around the world, the group praised China for ‘providing care to its Muslim citizens.’

    Its vast system of detention without trial has drawn condemnation from the State Department and Congress, but no sanctions, and only scattered criticism in Europe and at the United Nations. That is still more of a response than in the Muslim world, where nations—including Pakistan, Indonesia and other recipients of big Chinese loans—have overlooked China’s abuses against ethnic Uighurs, Kazakhs and others.

    And as Muslim countries fall in line, the West is under less pressure to take action.

    The major deterrent to antagonizing Beijing is its blunt economic power.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Vidi
  28. @Matthew

    No matter how you measure it, China is a democracy. Constitutionally, electively, popularly, procedurally, operationally, substantively financially, even theocratically–China comes out ahead.

    I’ve developed that fully here: https://www.unz.com/article/selling-democracy-to-china/.

    • Replies: @Galan
    , @Grahamsno(G64)
  29. @Lo

    You are assuming that our media accounts of China are accurate. They are not.

    The US has invested at least $100 billion since 1950 to create a false image of the country and have largely succeeded.

    The Uighur issue, for example, is entirely fictitious–as the testimony of the inspectors from eleven Muslim nations dispatched there by the World Muslim Conference, and in detail by one of the world’s most famous Muslim women, Mumtaz Zahra Baloch said, “During this visit, I did not find any instance of forced labour or cultural and religious repression.” She said much more, of course, but nothing about the visits were reported in our media.
    Any government that thinks it makes sense to put millions of people in internment camps because few among those people happened to break the laws is doomed. China doesn’t, which explains why its policies have 95% popular support.

    The Chinese middle and upper classes spend hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of dollars to send their children to the US when they cannot get into a Chinese university, where entrance is only possible by examination. The academic and intellectual level of American universities is much lower. Otherwise, less than 1% of middle and upper class families send their children abroad.

    China still has seriously corrupt business and political classes? Nonsense. Corruption has always been non-existent at the policy level and now it is disappearing locally. Otherwise, how can we explain the fact that, next year, every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health- and old age care? Or the fact that 500,000,000 urban Chinese will have more net worth and disposable income than the average American, their mothers and infants will be less likely to die in childbirth, their children will graduate from high school three years ahead of American kids and live longer, healthier lives and there will be more drug addicts, suicides and executions, more homeless, poor, hungry and imprisoned people in America than in China?

    China has never had terrible inequality issues and those that it has are much less severe than ours. And just to make sure, they’re devoting 2021-2035 to eliminating what’s left.

    • Agree: FB
    • LOL: eah, Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @eah
    , @Lo
  30. @Anonymous

    Where are you getting these ideas about China? Not from visiting China, that’s for sure.

  31. @Franklin Ryckaert

    I will cover Tibet and Xinjiang in future articles. Our media accounts of what is going on there have no basis in reality. None.

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  32. @FKA Max

    There is zero basis in fact for any of your allegations. Zero. They’re just paid commercial announcements.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  33. @Sean

    Read the World Muslim Council report by people who have been there and inspected the facilities.

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  34. @The Alarmist

    They don’t need any more and, besides, who can compete with 300,000 folk with 160 IQs?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    , @Vianney
  35. @Johnny Rottenborough

    Have you ever stopped to wonder why Western countries–which are bombing and threatening Muslim countries daily and have not visited Xinjiang–are complaining about China’s mistreatment of Muslims, with zero evidence?

    • Replies: @Johnny Rottenborough
  36. Anonymous[469] • Disclaimer says:
    @nokangaroos

    The American (not exactly “Western”) adaptation is great for rapid expansion and taking away things from others but does not take spectacularly well to the urban situation.

    Europeans are a lot more civilized in this regard. They have ways of living with each other.

    It’s interesting how Canada is a lot more civilized than the USA. Perhaps the weather makes for a common enemy?

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
    , @Anonymous
  37. Biff says:

    Westerners and some commentators here view the Chinese government(the propaganda works) as a huge omnipresent monolithic shepherd over the Chinese people – but I got to tell ya – per capita – nobody carries more government on their back than an American. It’s the largest government ever in the history of mankind. It doles all kinds of regulations on behalf of its corporate cronies to make sure they always win – the side effect is a rigid society so rife with rules that you can commit three felonies a day and not even know it.

    The taxes that have to be paid to sustain the empire ties down almost half of every family’s income. It doesn’t seem to end until death and your money does part. And there doesn’t seem to be much return; I mean, what do you get for all that money being poured into the maw? A day off on the last weekend of May? It’s a beast that is never satisfied. Always more, more, more. And war, war, war – it’s 1984!

    Freedom – the most meaningless term on the planet, unless you’re talking about the freedom to take advantage of others. I think the latter is what Americans are bragging about constantly.

    • Agree: Denis
    • Replies: @Johann
    , @Godfree Roberts
  38. Anonymous[469] • Disclaimer says:
    @threestars

    I’m sorry, this article is just way too stupid to read fully.

    Unfortunately this is the standard fare for Godfree Roberts articles.

    The comments section is often good, however.

    • Replies: @Iris
  39. annamaria says:
    @Anonymous

    Keep rolling your eyes.

    1. Assange case has been a great world-wide famous illustration of the lawless state of affairs in the UK and US: https://consortiumnews.com/2019/05/24/how-many-times-must-assange-be-proven-right/

    these unprecedented charges against Julian Assange and WikiLeaks are the most significant and terrifying threat to the First Amendment in the 21st century

    2. A venerable spy Halper parasitizing in a venerable Cambridge, UK, has ruined a reputation of a woman with the help of the pliable western presstitutes: https://www.rt.com/news/460221-lokhova-lawsuit-defamation-honeypot-halper/

    at no point did she so much as sit next to Flynn (she includes a photograph to illustrate this last point in which Flynn is flanked by two men). … everything in the stories published about her is completely false, from the email from Flynn signed with a pet name inviting her to Moscow to work as his translator to the seduction of the former general on orders from Putin.

    Lokhova learned from colleagues that Halper and another academic were spreading rumors about her, and those rumors soon found their way into print, where the story became more salacious with each retelling. Her attempts to correct the record were rebuffed, repeatedly. Journalists began showing up at her door.

    After not only losing her job but two book contracts and seven years of work toward her PhD, Lokhova says she was forced to leave the country “in order to avoid public scrutiny, invasion of her privacy, and constant public ridicule”

    • Replies: @Escher
  40. @Sean

    “Revolutions happen when the leadership of a country are seen as selling out to foreign states“

    And that is how the last imperial dynasty got into power. During a period of great upheaval, someone got it into their head that the best option would be rule by the foreign Manchu.

  41. @Godfree Roberts

    Well then don’t forget Falun Gong, especially the Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/…/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China

    Is murdering practitioners of a spiritual discipline in order to harvest their organs a sign of “human rights”?

    Parhaps China is no Utopia after all ?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  42. anon[420] • Disclaimer says:
    @Backwoods Bob

    > Christian based Western values do not prioritize the individual over the family.

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.” -Luke 14:26

    > So I quit reading.

    Jew-worshipers (John 4:22) will do anything to avoid facing reality.

  43. @Godfree Roberts

    Don’t you suspect they got the “Potemkin Villages” treatment?

  44. Biff says:
    @The Alarmist

    I’ll believe China has become a paragon of virtues when I see caravans of thousands lining up to move there.

    Unlike another country I’m familiar with, China actually has a bonafide immigration policy that is strictly enforced. Caravans won’t be getting thru.

  45. @Anonymous

    Inclement weather selects for cooperation, intelligence and planning (“latitude hypothesis”).

    In Canada´s case I would say lower population pressure …
    and no Puritans ;b

  46. All this proves is China is for the most part is ethnically homogenous. Amazing whar a shared common culture can do for quality of life.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  47. Vianney says:
    @George Vlavianos

    Thanks for disputing the Greco-Christian appellation.

    When Europe WAS Greco (Roman) Christian, it also had extensive cultural exchange and trade with China (as with Persia).

    Devolution to Old Testamentism and Zionist racism (see Douglas Reed) de-formed core Christianity.

    Jews implanted that racism in Britain w/ Manassah Ben Israel, thence to US via Puritans. Early 1900s Zionists began now near-total coup of US.

  48. @FKA Max

    USA… believed to have executed 25-99 people in 2018.

    What about the extra-judicial, extra-territorial excecutions, especially by drones, but not only?

    In the thousands, if not more.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  49. @Godfree Roberts

    The US doesn’t need any more, but here we are. China’s average IQ is on par with most of developed Europe, and even Texas, so what’s your point?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  50. hau says:

    Another great article. Thanks especially for the Uighur-holocaust debunkals, that’s new to me.

    Nadeau came straight off the US area-studies assembly line, so naturally he shows telltale traditional orientalism. He gweilosplains China to us in terms of Confucianism. It makes me hope that somewhere there’s some Chinese egghead who explains bignoses in terms of Etruscan philology. That’s about how stupid it is.

    Fun fact: Know who wrote the UDHR, ur-text of human rights? Four people under Eleanor Roosevelt’s hands-off management. One was Peng Chun Chang. “Confucian” Chinese co-wrote wrote the fricking UDHR.

    The objective, exhaustively-documented indicators show China is in the same mediocre tier as the US, in general terms.

    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Indicators/Pages/HRIndicatorsIndex.aspx

    The review cycle shows the differences. China hasn’t ratified the ICCPR. The US government, in contrast, ratified it but interprets it in bad faith to undermine it. As Godfree says, China leaves the USG in the dust in terms of economic rights compliance.

    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/AsiaRegion/Pages/CNIndex.aspx

    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/LACRegion/Pages/USIndex.aspx

  51. Rich says:

    Is this author working for the propaganda office of the Red Chinese? I feel like I’m reading a pamphlet put out by the Bolsheviks in 1927. I’ll reply to a few obvious lies.
    2. Minorities in America get affirmative action, welfare, free housing, free food. Not something I support.
    3. Argue military methods all you want, but killing enemy combatants with drones isn’t a bad thing.
    4. There is no “forced labor” in America’s prisons, prisoners work, should they just lift weights and eat twinkies all day?
    5. Nonsense. Interrogation techniques used by the US and its allies do not use torture.
    6. The prisoners at Guantanamo are POWs in an ongoing conflict, they have no right to a trial.
    7. The US doesn’t execute anyone without a trial, where did that nonsense come from? Executions take place after a long legal process, a too long legal process. The only people held without bail are those considered a flight risk or a danger to the community.
    8. Mr Manning was a soldier who gave away military secrets. There is no military on Earth that allows this. The trial of Mr Assange hasn’t taken place yet and he’s never been in an American prison. Snowden also revealed American secrets, something no country would allow, and has never spent a night in an American prison. Blacks who are executed in the US are, for the most part, convicted of vicious murders.
    I could continue to tear this whole propaganda piece to bits, but I think that’s enough for now.

  52. Johann says:
    @Biff

    The American government or MIC is the wealthiest entity on earth and spends trillions on its military. The American people are the wealthiest on earth which explains why everyone wants to come to America : “ everything free in America “. American students live in the lap of luxury spending tens of thousands on their education, driving the newest autos, drinking expensive craft beers, expensive coffee houses, etc. The American corporate sports rackets literally pay their dim witted athletes millions to throw a ball around and the equally dim witted fans think they are worth even more. Of course all this money is borrowed but not to worry there is no need to pay it back, the Democrat/Republican political parties will take care of it. Americans are living in a bubble which is about to break.

  53. Vianney says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    — China’s One Child policy was an attempt to solve overpopulation. More population neither sought nor desired. Granted, the policy has some negative consequences.

    — That USA opens borders in a self-destructive way suggests a cultural failure, not success, relative to China.

    — Cynic that I am, or over-dosed on red pills, I differ from Alarmist on immigration: I view it as a cross between Tower of Babel i.e. sow chaos, and a slightly more sophisticated , and even more profitable form of slavery.

    My knowledge of China is very limited (So Thanks to Roberts & Unz for tutorials), nut I’m not aware that Chinese IMPORTED workers for slave labor .

    PS & OT: tinfoil theory that the Nancy & Donald hissy fit was scripted, in order to derail infrastructure spending until sufficient slave labor-migrants could be properly distributed.

  54. @Godfree Roberts

    Godfree Roberts—Have you ever stopped to wonder why Western countries–which are bombing and threatening Muslim countries daily and have not visited Xinjiang–are complaining about China’s mistreatment of Muslims, with zero evidence?

    Relax. As the NYT article I linked makes clear, China, wielding carrot and stick, has trounced her critics and emerged triumphant.

  55. onebornfree says: • Website

    This entire article smacks of [either] futility, naivete, willful ignorance, or possibly all 3 at the same time.

    This just in:

    1] The Chinese government is a wholly criminal org. run by criminal psychopaths.

    2]The US government is a wholly criminal org. run by criminal psychopaths.

    3] The United Nations is a wholly criminal org. run by criminal psychopaths.

    Comparing the alleged “benefits” and official records of 3 wholly criminal orgs. ?

    What’s next- comparing the “benefits” of Mao compared to Stalin, or FDR, or Hitler, or Obama, or Pol Pot?

    Give me a frickin’ break!

    Comparing China and the US’s alleged human rights records etc. to that of the United Nations is either a result of the authors innocent ignorance, the naivete of yet another heavily state-indoctrinated fool, or, it is a deliberate sleight of hand.

    This Also Just In: The True Nature of All Governments:

    “Because they are all ultimately funded via both direct and indirect theft [taxes], and counterfeiting [central bank monopolies], all governments are essentially, at their very cores, 100% corrupt criminal scams which cannot be “reformed”,”improved”, nor “limited” in scope, simply because of their innate criminal nature.” onebornfree

    “Taking the State wherever found, striking into its history at any point, one sees no way to differentiate the activities of its founders, administrators and beneficiaries from those of a professional-criminal class.” Albert J. NockThis just in

    “Why should any self-respecting citizen endorse an institution grounded on thievery? For that is what one does when one votes. If it be argued that we must let bygones be bygones, see what can be done toward cleaning up the institution of the State so that it might be useful in the maintenance of orderly existence, the answer is that it cannot be done; you cannot clean up a brothel and yet leave the business intact. We have been voting for one “good government” after another, and what have we got?” Frank Chodorov, Out of Step (1962)

    Regards, onebornfree
    http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/

    • Replies: @Socratic Truth
  56. neprof says:

    “The Chinese prioritize the family over the individual and the state over the family..” Sure, okay.

    A State that enforced a one-child policy for decades cares little for families. These policies are now proving disastrous for families, esp. elderly women left alone.

    https://cruxnow.com/church-in-asia/2019/05/19/womens-advocate-calls-widows-hidden-victims-of-china-one-child-policy/

    Senor suicide rates has risen 500 percent the past 20 years

    In the countryside, three times more women kill themselves than man. This is what happens when your force them to have abortions and then age all alone.

    https://www.mercatornet.com/demography/view/the-children-problem-for-china/22267

  57. I’ll say this, at least the Chinese government doesn’t persecute it’s own founding stock while favoring foreign invaders and an incorrigable minority.

  58. annamaria says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Thank you for your informative post.

    • Replies: @Iris
  59. Galan says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Does China allow political parties that are independent from the Communist party? Have any of these parties attained some power at the national or local levels? How different are their programs from that of the Communist party?

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    , @Godfree Roberts
  60. Stevek9 says:

    Elite American universities are still the best in the World … at least in Science.

  61. HdC says:
    @Rich

    “5. Nonsense. Interrogation techniques used by the US and its allies do not use torture.”

    You are seriously mistaken to make a statement like that. HdC

    • Replies: @Rich
  62. annamaria says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    F. Ryckaert, one perhaps needs to be less arrogant when making pronouncements about other peoples’ government when our own is a non-functional one because of the dual loyalty of its senators. https://phibetaiota.net/2019/05/robert-steele-zionist-strike-35-nsa-documenting-members-of-congress-who-are-and-have-been-israel-firsters/ “NSA Documenting Members of Congress Who Are and Have Been Israel Firsters” by Robert Steele

    I just learned today that NSA is on a full bore retrospective database search to document every Member of Congress making promises to Zionist Israel and accepting undeclared compensation from Zionist Israel — every single such Member, which is all but three by my count — is subject to criminal trial and will at a minimum face electoral challenges — I anticipate veterans who put America First being among the most credible challengers. I anticipate billboards across America showing every Member of Congress holding an Israeli passport to be an Israel Firster. This is going to gut the Democratic Party but it will also take out some of the Republicans in Name Only (RINO).

    I am reliably informed that the Zionists embedded at NSA will not be able to scrub the database. We’ve got them. There is no escaping REVELATION.

    Great IF this is true

    • Replies: @Whitewolf
  63. Kanada IS on a wrong track: Canada Provides Safe Haven to White Helmet Terrorist Factions

    Canada and the Recognition of Kosovo: They’ve got it wrong … Kosovo: Agim Ceku, the War Criminal Not Wanted by Canada …

    Canadian Mining Is Dispossessing Indigenous Peoples and …

    Canada Joins the Authoritarian Censorship Agenda – Global Research

    Canada Serves the US Empire…Again…and Again…

    Canadian Wars More About Imperialism Than ‘Defending Democracy’

    Canada Becomes Party to Ukraine’s Conflict. Sells Lethal Weapons …

    Canada Gets Cozy with Repressive Middle East Monarchies …

    Canadian Political Prisoners. Human Rights and the Persecution of … Disproportionate numbers of First Peoples are in Canadian prisons.

    Canada: Workers Rights and General Motors Plan to Shut Down its …

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/canada-workers…and…/5662174

    Human Rights Orgs: End Canadian Arms Sales to Saudi Arabia …

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/search?q=canada&x=0&y=0

    .

    Canada: The Empire’s Shadowy Cousin – Global ResearchGlobal …

  64. Iris says:
    @Anonymous

    You are two idiots comforting each other.

  65. annamaria says:
    @Rich

    Could you look at your own propaganda first?

    “Interrogation techniques used by the US and its allies do not use torture.” — False.
    “USA and Torture: A History of Hypocrisy:” https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/12/09/usa-and-torture-history-hypocrisy#
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/09/cia-torture-black-site-enhanced-interrogation
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/gina-haspel-black-site-torture-cia/555539/
    https://www.thenation.com/article/the-cia-waterboarded-the-wrong-man-83-times-in-1-month/

    “The prisoners at Guantanamo are POWs in an ongoing conflict, they have no right to a trial.” — False. They are defined as detainees not as POWs.
    https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/united-states-status-and-treatment-detainees-held-guantanamo-naval-base

    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  66. Iris says:
    @annamaria

    This article is wonderful, isn’t it?

    It shows that there is reason for hope, a working governance alternative, and light at the end of the mortiferous, Zio-controlled, world order tunnel. With kind regards, dear Annamaria.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  67. annamaria says:
    @Stevek9

    True… How many Chinese are among the best researchers and engineers at these universities?
    “China set to become global science leader by 2025:” https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/china-set-to-become-global-science-leader-by-2025

  68. Yee says:

    Franklin Ryckaert,

    “Well then don’t forget Falun Gong, especially the Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China”

    “Falun Gong” and “White Helmet” has the same boss…

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  69. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    You mean to say that China is going to invade Iran and over throw the government of Venezuela?

    I didn’t think so. The other things are just hyperbole.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  70. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    I don’t think what China is doing there is a good thing. But so what?

    How does that affect us? China is not trying to be an exemplar to the world they can force their values down others throats.

    Besides, I wish our own government was closer to China when it came to foreign agents trying to subvert our country.

  71. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    Well, I know they execute their bankers to keep them in line that is a non violent crime. What’s so wrong about that?

    • Agree: nokangaroos
  72. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I wouldn’t necessarily see modern day Europe as an exemplar for civility or even Europe from a couple hundred years ago.

    Europe always had strife and a history of urban violence and riots. A lot of modern European cities are relatively calm now only because Europeans have become wealthier but as Europe decays I expect to see a return to historical norms.

    • Replies: @sally
  73. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Iris

    I seriously doubt this. It is good if true, but why wouldn’t orange Jesus put a stop to it. We all know where his loyalties lie.

  74. denk says:

    How did China manage to rise from a third world shit hole to the world’s no2 economy in 70years. ?
    Why did murikka tailspin into the opposite direction, from the world’s only hyper power to a gawd damned banana republic
    ?

    YOu wouldnt guess its due to a book .
    THE UGLY CHINAMAN by BO Yang.

    The Chinese are the only people who produce their
    very own self critique, a scathing indictment of all thats wrong about the social ills inherited from the feudal era.
    Selfish, callous, rude,. superstitious, ignorant,
    disunited……the lot.
    Not unlike the merikkans, it seem.

    What set the merikkans and Chinese apart from here on is, the Chinese recognise their liabilities , faced it head on and progressively shedding it off.
    Hence the meteoric rise.

    The merikkans would rather shoot the messenger.
    ‘John Pilger a self hating white’,
    ‘Godfree Roberts a CCP stooge’,

    so that they can continue to live in self delusion of
    grandeur, at least for the time being….until shtf.

    • Agree: FB
  75. DB Cooper says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    One thing I can tell you is these. If the Chinese people want to find something to bad mouth the West they would have never accused the West of religious and ethnic oppression.

    Not because the West are innocent in these two departments, but because historically China never even have these two issues to begin with. The founders of the US realized that religious oppression is going to be a big problem in the new country if nothing is done about it so they put it in writing this separation of church and state thing and I have to say by and large it has work wonders ever since. The Americans have internalized this religious freedom thing and that is very good. But just because the US have solved a problem that historically has plagued its society doesn’t mean other countries, especially countries with very different cultures, have this problem in the first place. This is a point most Americans don’t appreciate.

    Accusing China of religious and ethnic persecution makes as much sense as accusing the UK of Ping Pong Hooliganism. If’s simply not a thing in China historically or presently.

    • Replies: @denk
  76. denk says:
    @DB Cooper

    Im tired of educating brainwashed merikkans,
    too far gone, beyond redemption. !

    PCR is right,
    ‘There’r too many deranged people in the west,
    especially the murikkan led 5liars, who still believe in the official stories and the presstitudes’

    IMagine that,
    Wiki, Breitbart, BLoomberg, NYT, FLG, ….

    FFS !

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  77. Rich says:
    @HdC

    Talk to the American men who were taken prisoner by the Vietnamese, or the Japanese, then get back to me on the definition of “torture”. Remember, terrorists and spies have no protections under the Geneva Conventions, and still the US has kept these murderers alive, fed, housed and clothed them. It’s true most soft Westerners have become too genteel to understand war, but the US is well within the norm in its treatment of terrorists, and if anything, goes too easy on them.

  78. bjondo says:

    thanks for this article.
    bought a language cd to learn mandarin.
    shouldn’t take more than 11 years.

  79. I had to read this twice to make sure that you hadn’t confused the US for Israel. Then, I struck me, Israel runs the US.
    As for the bar graph about whether a country is headed in the right/wrong direction, I don’t put much stock in polls, because most have an agenda, and the questions asked are designed to lead to the desired result. I can’t imagine that the results for Canada would be anywhere close to what is shown.

  80. @annamaria

    You can call a canary a crow, that doesn’t make it one.
    The millions of German soldiers killed by Eisenhower weren’t POWs either, they were unarmed enemy combatants. The Germans called the “underground” movements spies, which is what they were under the rules of war since the Peace of Westphalia. Yet somehow, executing spies under a 300 year old treaty, became a war crime.

    Get some help for your cranial-anal inversion.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  81. eah says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    The US has invested at least $100 billion since 1950 to create a false image of the country and have largely succeeded.

    At least $100b? — and it was an ‘investment’? –“LOL” — if you say so.

    Look, everyone can see you have an agenda: your posts comparing the US to China are always very tendentious (in favor of China), albeit you attempt to use absolute metrics — that’s fine — but to be fair(er), you really ought to redo your INTERNAL SECURITY chart after removing Blacks and Hispanics — both groups are a significant problem for America, Blacks more than Hispanics of course — both are significantly more criminal than Whites (and Asians) — neither makes a net economic contribution (certainly Blacks don’t; with Hispanics it may be debatable, but I don’t believe they do) — Whites (aka Americans) never asked for these problems (especially true of Hispanic immigration), but we have to suffer their presence and deal with the problems they cause.

    How do you explain the popularity of US birth tourism on the part of well-to-do Chinese?

  82. peterAUS says:
    @Anonymous

    Yep.

    Informative:

    ….underperformance endemic to Asian law enforcement bodies (e.g. if a murderer isn’t found in two weeks, a death gets quietly reclassified as a suicide)

    As for

    …this degenerating corpse of what was once an excellent dissident information site….

    I guess that’s the nature of all such sites.
    “Passionate” and those with agenda simply take over in time.

    Still, bits like Lo’s above and yours, for example, are worth skipping over the rest.
    My technique: skim read first sentence or two and then either skip the comment (say, 80 % at the moment) or read it.

  83. peterAUS says:
    @Rich

    Is this author working for the propaganda office of the Red Chinese?

    Feels like it.

    Although, sometimes, I just get a vague feeling that the man is simply taking a piss and having fun reading and replying to comments.

    Or, he has it both at the same time: has fun and gets paid for it by Beijing.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  84. DB Cooper says:
    @denk

    I know what you mean but it doesn’t hurt trying.

  85. annamaria says:
    @Curmudgeon

    Cannot control your abusive verbal ejaculation? A correction of an incorrect statement made your blood boil?
    There was no valor in killing “the millions of German soldiers” who were “unarmed enemy combatants.” You only proved my point than the empire (and her apologists) protest too much.

  86. Agent76 says:

    May 7, 2019 China’s secret internment camps

    China has been quietly detaining its population of Uighurs, the country’s Muslim minority, in internment camps.

    Dec 1, 2018 China Creates Genetic Super Babies

    A Chinese scientist may have created the world’s first genetically engineered babies. Gene editing is banned in many countries, but guess what? Not in China.

  87. Anon[208] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    How Jews play the game


    IT’S OFFICIAL – YOUTUBE HATES ME

  88. Iris says:

    China keeping her traditions alive:

    A Chinese lady hand-making (on her own) sophisticated furniture with bamboo.

    • Replies: @Lo
  89. unseated says:
    @FKA Max

    You are quoting the Guardian and Australian ABC on China? The ABC is the organisation that has a regular anti-China article on the front page of its news website every week – usually around the weekend. This week’s is about “automated censoring ahead of Tiananmen Anniversary”. On the other hand the ABC (and the Guardian) manually censors news of weekly IDF attacks on Palestinian protesters in Gaza. As to Wikipedia …

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  90. More inspiring information from the Chinese Utopia :

    1) Chinese executions exposed by rare photos. Compare the 4000 executions in China with the 46 in the US of the same year :

    https://youtu.be/eEd17taOrmA

    2) Dogs are regularly slaughtered for food in China. Often they are boiled alive because it is believed their suffering makes their flesh taste better :

    3) Members of the persecuted Falun Gong movement are slaughtered (without anesthesia!) and their organs harvested :

    Will this century become the “Chinese Century”? God help us !

  91. onebornfree says: • Website

    China’s robot censors crank up as Tiananmen anniversary nears

    “BEIJING (Reuters) – It’s the most sensitive day of the year for China’s internet, the anniversary of the bloody June 4 crackdown on pro-democracy protests at Tiananmen Square, and with under two weeks to go, China’s robot censors are working overtime.

    Censors at Chinese internet companies say tools to detect and block content related to the 1989 crackdown have reached unprecedented levels of accuracy, aided by machine learning and voice and image recognition.

    “We sometimes say that the artificial intelligence is a scalpel, and a human is a machete,” said one content screening employee at Beijing Bytedance Co Ltd, who asked not to be identified because they are not authorized to speak to media.

    Two employees at the firm said censorship of the Tiananmen crackdown, along with other highly sensitive issues including Taiwan and Tibet, is now largely automated.

    Posts that allude to dates, images and names associated with the protests are automatically rejected.

    “When I first began this kind of work four years ago there was opportunity to remove the images of Tiananmen, but now the artificial intelligence is very accurate,” one of the people said. ……”:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-tiananmen-censorship-idUSKCN1SW03Y

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  92. Lo says:
    @Iris

    She is an actress with a crew. Village women do not put on a ton of makeup and do not have perfectly clean, pampered hands.

    • Replies: @Anon
  93. sally says:
    @Anonymous

    but still there is no discussion regards the source of authority national governments claim (the goal is to attain universal worldwide human control over the nation states; such nation states operate under license from humanity).

    Authority to govern and rules that limit that authority are to be found within the inalienable human rights, not at the point of gun of the general that just wiped out the prior existing status quo.. It is the prerogative of the governed to establish for themselves, the conditions for their own governance and the right of the governed to exercise oversight powers to restrain those in government to operate in accord to, the license.

    Everywhere I see that the power of the sword determines the authority of the national leaders and the bureaucracies that support them. Governments should be devices of mankind, not mankind the slave to its own government. License issued from the masses of humanity, where it is found by the masses, that a state is needed to render efficient organizational arrangements and to provide for security,

    No where have I seen a government that has not made a few wealthy at the expense of all others.. Why is this not being discussed?

  94. Lo says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    You are assuming that our media accounts of China are accurate. They are not.

    I am not assuming anything. I know there are a lot of misrepresentations and misunderstandings regarding China, but the same is even truer for the Chinese media as well. Almost all journalists are a bunch of clowns and lapdogs, that’s why no one trusts them any longer.

    The Uighur issue, for example, is entirely fictitious–as the testimony of the inspectors from eleven Muslim nations dispatched there by the World Muslim Conference, and in detail by one of the world’s most famous Muslim women, Mumtaz Zahra Baloch said, “During this visit, I did not find any instance of forced labour or cultural and religious repression.” She said much more, of course, but nothing about the visits were reported in our media.

    It is not fictitious, because Uighurs are a Muslim people from an entirely different race. Their country is under invasion and it was not a part of China historically. Which is why it is called Xinjiang in Chinese, which means “new land.” I know enough to know that Uighurs aren’t happy to be under invasion. China also pays incentives to Han Chinese to move and settle in their lands, which reduced Uighur representation in the population of Xinjiang from > 90% to < 50% in just about 70 years. Just a because a famous Muslim woman is stupid, doesn't mean we all should be. Let's not forget how Soviets impressed Western communist visitors.

    The Chinese middle and upper classes spend hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of dollars to send their children to the US when they cannot get into a Chinese university, where entrance is only possible by examination. The academic and intellectual level of American universities is much lower. Otherwise, less than 1% of middle and upper class families send their children abroad.

    There are almost 400k of Chinese students in the USA. If this represents less than 1% of middle and upper-class families then I guess there are more than 40 million college students in China and no lower class. Is that the case? What you claim is only true for Chinese students in second or third-tier colleges in the US. Better universities have transfer programs that bring in students from top universities in China. I disagree about US college commentary, the truth is there are too many colleges and too many college students that shouldn’t be in college in the US, where it really matters the US has the top colleges. Who cares if the academic standards of Central Florida University are low?

    Corruption has always been non-existent at the policy level and now it is disappearing locally.

    Then Xi is rallying against the corruption of who, and why exactly many top government officials got in trouble?

    Otherwise, how can we explain the fact that, next year, every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health- and old age care?

    This doesn’t mean there is no corruption. However, I would take it with a grain of salt. Some of these issues are goals, plenty of food means eradicating hunger not everyone will eat whatever they wish, since college entrance is exam based it is impossible for those who don’t have access to test training to go to a decent college, healthcare is basic and so on. Basically, this whole policy is not about a utopia where it is all good, rather trying to provide basics to the citizenry. Not a bad thing, but not exactly how you represent it. I agree that the streets are much safer.

    Or the fact that 500,000,000 urban Chinese will have more net worth and disposable income than the average American

    Did not happen yet, maybe will never happen. The mean income per capita in the US is almost $50K, in China household income is about $10K, this is not per capita but household income.

    their children will graduate from high school three years ahead of American kids and live longer, healthier lives and there will be more drug addicts, suicides and executions, more homeless, poor, hungry and imprisoned people in America than in China?

    Good for the Chinese if all happen one day, I am not against people living well and definitely there are serious issues in the US. The US needs to solve drug issue, starting with imprisoning Hackler family, followed by giving heavy punishments those who bring Fentanyl from China and other drugs from Mexico. Homelessness also could easily be solved if the government wanted to.

    China has never had terrible inequality issues and those that it has are much less severe than ours. And just to make sure, they’re devoting 2021-2035 to eliminating what’s left.

    They didn’t have an issue in the past because there wasn’t wealth to share anyway. Now their income inequality is on par with third world countries. The same is true for the US, which is a shame and something that politicians should be kept accountable for.

    Bottom line; I am not against Chinese living better. I don’t remember having any issues with a Chinese person. I also think the US has issues that it shouldn’t have, and there is a lot of corruption in the US as well. However, none of this means that CCP is great and China is a utopia. China has giant issues it faces and it will as it develops. You make it sound like some sort of heaven that it is not.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @Godfree Roberts
  95. utu says:

    In China the below mediam income homeownership is higher than for the above the median income people? Richer Chinese prefer too rent, right?

    Or is it another confirmation that Godfree Roberts is a shameless propagandist who makes up his own statistics?

  96. Joe Wong says:
    @Galan

    There are tens of political parties independent from the CCP in China, one of them is called KMT. Though they are relatively small in size, they are part of the government and they can propose their ideas to people’s congress to resolve social and political issues if the Congress accepts the proposal, then it becomes law or policy for the government to implement.

    Chinese have political party throughout the history, we call them 朋党。With no exception they are all destructive and usually they end up destroyed dynasties because they were focused on ideological dogma, they were all busy fighting each other and forgot to serve the emperors and the people. Even when the enemy was at the gate, they were still fighting who had the moral high ground. but they all kissed the enemy’s ass after the enemy overrun the city.

    Chinese view political party members put party above the nation and the people, they are not good for the nation and the people like the Republicans and Democrats who are more interested in winning the election instead of doing good for the nation and the people. Russiangate is the typical example of serving the party first instead of letting the elected president serving the nation and the people first.

  97. Joe Wong says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    We do not care or want to know how you run and live your life,we just want to trade with you at or over the ‘fence’. Fence meaning you mind your own private affairs and I mind my own. I let you be. You let me be. We engage and meet only to trade. Otherwise East is East and West is West. Neither can judge the other as to what is right or wrong.

    For beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. One man’s food is another man’s poison. A friend today is an enemy tomorrow. I make my bed I sleep in it. Nobody is superior or inferior to another. We are all entitled to our spot and space in the jungle and to share equally from the equanimous benevolence of the sunshine and the rainfall. All is relative and subjective. How the Indian cowherd, the cow and the cowdung beetle sees the cowpat has no impact on the object at all. The impact is in the eyes of the three different subject minds, The Indian cowherd sees kitchen fuel, the cow sees her own shit and the cowdung beetle sees food.

    So the Chinese see Communism as ‘freedom from’ want and need like starvation, poverty, homelessness and joblessness. You see democracy as ‘freedom to’ to bear arms, to have slaves, to have a superiority complex, proselytise your whiteman God, sorry I was thinking of your past, speak your truth, be a drug addict and dealer, to beggar your neighbour, to deny public health to your fellow citizens and all other acts of dishonesty. So stop your self illusions about being in the Land of the Free or being the Defender of Freedom, for you only make it so obviously that you are a prevaricating hypocrite. The Chinese Government at least tells you straight – there are no individual rights just family or societal rights; there is no right to privacy for we are watching you CCTV and drones and special egometric and physiognomic glasses but at least it is upfront honesty – what you see is what you get!

    The Chinese do not care what you call this century, you can call it the American Century if you want, just stick your nose to yourself and bugger off.

    • Agree: Iris
    • LOL: eah
    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
    , @FB
  98. @onebornfree

    You hit the nail on the head. It is funny to read 99% of the comments here where people argue which KLEPTOCRACY (US or CHINA) is better or worse than the other. A True Socialist/Capitalist system only works when you have an honest government that cares and works for the people. This type of government does not exist in the world today. As a small evidence, I’d like to suggest to all these people that argue here which nation is the shittiest, to look at the economic system of a country and see who is behind it and how the Central Bank of that country is run and who runs it. Most of the nations (including US & China), have Central Banks that are under the BIS Authority (THE CENTRAL BANK of Central Banks) THAT IS RUN BY PRIVATE INTERESTS charging governments and it’s people INTEREST to print money out of thin air and is run partly by the CITY OF LONDON. As long as you have a powerful group of Usurious financiers (International Bankers) that control the Money and have bought out the majority of politicians and governments all over the world, you can’t even start talking about any system that can truly work for the people.
    List of BIS membership:
    https://www.bis.org/about/member_cb.htm

    • Replies: @Sally
  99. @Matthew

    Major changes in any nation only occur when matters become unbearable for a large enough segment of the population. On average that may indeed be roughly every hundred years or two. That is no different to the USA. It has only been around for a few hundred years but has certainly done exactly that.

  100. @Monotonous Languor

    you have great insight and wisdom. so called enlightened man has crowned Reason above everything else, his own reason with all the attendant folly and hubris. the more his reasoning faculty darkens and his soul diminished, the more he considers it he is becoming enlightened and exalted. Satan, as he was expelled from the heavens and was descending, had the illusion of going up and exclaimed, “the Lord is fleeing with His abode!”
    Up is down, down is up. War is peace, freedom is bondage. Good is bad, evil is right. Welcome to the new world order, courtesy of enlightened Western Man and his super ego. he surrounds himself with all amenities and comforts, taking heart in his technical prowess and high IQ, lives to a hundred years and dies peacefully surrounded by dotting nurses after droning his foes far and wide. but then suddenly he comes face to face with his Maker, his 24/7 propagandist lying lips shut… ahh Sweet Justice!
    Come swiftly, O Lord, come swiftly for Thy enemies have raised up their heads.

  101. @Ilya G Poimandres

    That’s just a trick of mirrors you did there. If we treat others the way we’d like to be treated, the rest will follow. You’re making an assumption that people are different and anyone who has travelled much knows in fact people are essentially the same everywhere. No need to complicate things.

    • Replies: @Ilya G Poimandres
  102. FB says: • Website
    @MBlanc46

    I agree…certain harmful and toxic [to the fabric of society] cretins and idiots like yourself should not be classed as ‘human’…and should therefore be culled from humanity…

    For all real humans, the full human rights apply…

  103. @MBlanc46

    They are indeed “RIGHTS” since they are agreed as such. These rights have been granted you and I by our collective international will as expressed via the UN. I bet it is Americans who are struggling with all these basic matters of morality and collective humanity.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  104. I’m out of here before I end up being nasty. I can see the expected reactions from plenty of yankee wankee doodles here. Totally missing the point, trying to recycle their own government’s propaganda against China whlst ignoring this answer to it, and generally showing why the USA is turning to a shithole.

    I’d just say that in some aspects of the article there’s a bit of free ride given to China and an equally critical analysis might suggest there’s less light between the two on balance in a few more areas. I think for example that slave like working conditions certainly exist in China although the tendency is to the betterment. On the whole though it is a damning comparison and one in many of its elements I have made myself before. There is a movement also in other corners of Empire such as my Australia, towards the US model and that is a pity too.

    • Replies: @FB
  105. FB says: • Website
    @Xytil

    Your fantastic stories would be more believable if you backed them up with anything more than your own hot air…

    • Replies: @FvS
  106. FB says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    There are over 1,000 people extrajudicially executed in the US police state every year…

    …The Counted…

    PS…stop spamming the thread with your asshat graphics made up by the lying MSM…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @FKA Max
  107. FB says: • Website
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Obviously you live in a fucking ‘potemkin village’ of your own invention…

  108. FB says: • Website
    @Monotonous Languor

    Do you actually have something to say in all that meaningless babble…?

    Let me make it simple for you…in a world where the powerless many have been preyed upon by the powerful few for thousands of years, the last thing we want to object to is legal codification of our equality to that of our oppressors…

    Maybe next you want to start a charity fundraiser for King Bezos…I hear he needs some more taxpayer dollars…

    What a fucking idiot…

    • Replies: @Lo
  109. Yee says:

    onebornfree,

    “China’s robot censors crank up…”

    Western Media, along with their intelligence agencies, are their most powerful weapon in manipulate the world…

    There’s no way Chinese government can win the propaganda war with the West… So, “Anti-Access/Area Denial” is China’s only workable defense option.

    Our ancestors has decided “endless talks ruin a nation” (清谈误国), so they stopped rewarding bullshit artists 1800 years ago in Wei-Jun period, it has taken a toll on our bullshitting abilities.

  110. Neither China nor the US is a “shining city on the hill”. The difference is that China does not claim to be one, whereas the US does. Hence the US claims that it is “exceptional” and assumes the right to tell others what to do. In contrast, Chinese foreign policy is sane, based on “live and let live” principle. An inevitable result of this difference in attitudes is that, for better or worse, the US is on the course of self-destruction, whereas China is on the course of self-preservation.

    • Agree: Lo, annamaria
    • Replies: @FB
  111. Lo says:
    @FB

    He says we cannot define our own rights because there is no objective ground we can stand on. Then he says an external moral authority could bestow rights. Just asking who gets to define the external source invalidates his argument. Because if there is a definition of the external moral authority, then it means it is also human-defined, and therefore his external moral authority is also subject to all shortcomings he mentions in his argument against human rights.

    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
  112. @Joe Wong

    Basic human rights and animal rights should be universal and not subject to “cultural relativism”. Perhaps the majority of the Chinese population doesn’t care if practitioners of Falun Gong are persecuted and slaughtered for organ harvesting, but the victims of such policy are human enough not to like it, and that is what counts. A world of trade-without-morality will lead not to a utopia but a dystopia. I don’t mind if you criticize America for its own human rights violations and its hypocrisy (I am no American myself), but the freedom to criticize should be universal and mutual.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Joe Wong
    , @Escher
  113. @Old and grumpy

    Agreed. The American justice system is appalling, but anyone who discusses it without reference to racial differences is a borderline liar.

  114. FB says: • Website
    @Rich

    Hey is this the same Italian pretty boy ‘Rich’…who regaled us with tales of his travels to far off lands, where the locals loved him for his ‘good looks’…LOL

    Hey Bozo…the cops in the US kill over 1,000 people year…I guess they must have had a pretty quick trial…?…you don’t see that kind of police state violence even in Africa…

    Everything you just said is so ridiculous it doesn’t even pass the idiot test…

    • Troll: Rich
    • Replies: @Rich
  115. Iris says:
    @utu

    In China the below mediam income homeownership is higher than for the above the median income people? Richer Chinese prefer too rent, right?

    People with below median income live in the country, where housing is relatively affordable, while people with income above median live in cities where it is relatively much less affordable, no? Does not seem odd.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @utu
  116. @Franklin Ryckaert

    Do you have any proof (I mean real proof, not lying Western MSM) that Falun Gong adepts were used for organ harvesting? For example, I know that there is proof that Kosovo mafiosi, brought to power by NATO and the US, murdered Serbs for organ harvesting. Is there any proof about Falun Gong?

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  117. FKA Max says:
    @FB

    Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons

    1 United States 120.5
    […]
    139 China 3.6

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

    Police shootings are also part of America’s gun problem

    US police have to constantly fear guns

    “Police officers in the United States in reality need to be conscious of and are trained to be conscious of the fact that literally every single person they come in contact with may be carrying a concealed firearm,” David Kennedy, a criminologist at John Jay College, told me. “That’s true for a 911 call. It’s true for a barking dog call. It’s true for a domestic violence incident. It’s true for a traffic stop. It’s true for everything.”

    This is one potential reason, experts said, that the US has far more police shootings than other developed nations.
    […]
    As a breakthrough analysis by UC Berkeley’s Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins in the 1990s found, it’s not even that the US has more crime than other developed countries. This chart, based on data from Jeffrey Swanson at Duke University, shows that the US is not an outlier when it comes to overall crime
    […]
    Instead, the US appears to have more lethal violence — and that’s driven in large part by the prevalence of guns.

    https://www.vox.com/2018/4/9/17205256/gun-violence-us-police-shootings

    • Disagree: Biff
    • Troll: FB
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Biff
  118. FB says: • Website
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    “Falun Gong” and “White Helmet” has the same boss…

    Source ?

    Gee Mr Wikipedia…you really got us there…

  119. Rich says:
    @FB

    Grow up. Or at least draw your own cartoon.

    • Replies: @FB
  120. FKA Max says:
    @FB

    More Police Officers Died From Gunfire Than Traffic Incidents In 2018, Report Says

    There has been an average of 55 traffic-related deaths each year in the current decade, with an average of 54 firearm-related deaths. Those numbers are much closer now than they were in the two most recent decades:

    2000s: 71 traffic-related deaths; 57 gun-related
    1990s: 59 traffic-related deaths; 40 gun-related

    https://www.npr.org/2018/12/27/680410169/more-police-officers-died-from-gunfire-than-traffic-incidents-in-2018-report-say

    • Replies: @FB
  121. FB says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    Neither China nor the US is a “shining city on the hill”. The difference is that China does not claim to be one, whereas the US does.

    The statistics here say different…when it comes to ‘justice’ and related issues fundamental to human rights, there is a day and night difference…these statistics also jibe with Fred Reed’s firsthand impressions of his trips to China…very little crime…very inconspicuous police visibility…

    Sorry professor…but there can be no false equivalence between the US and China on this score…do a search for ‘nail houses’ in China…people who refuse to move…the powerful builders are forced to ‘work around’…literally…

    This a triumph of the little guy…the only civilization on earth where you will see this…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  122. FB says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    US police have to constantly fear guns

    That’s a retarded statement…police kill with impunity because they know they will never go to jail…pack off a few of these cretins off to jail and see how fast they lose their ‘fear’ of guns…

    Many countries have high gun ownership rates…

    Canada is 35 guns per 100 people…about a third that of the US…Serbia is even higher…Finland is just behind Canada…how many people are killed by police in Finland…?

    IT’S FUCKING UNHEARD OF ASSHAT…

    Even the WaPo is now keeping track…998 shot and killed last year…that’s fucking obscene…10,000 people in the last decade…you could fill a hockey arena…

    Why don’t you go troll somewhere else…seriously…?

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  123. Yee says:

    utu,

    “In China the below mediam income homeownership is higher than for the above the median income people? Richer Chinese prefer too rent, right?”

    The poorest people in China are peasants, all of them own land and house. It’s the city folks who have higher income have to buy expensive apartments…

  124. Joe Wong says:
    @utu

    How do you make such a conclusion that richer Chinese prefer to rent? Villagers make less money but they can build their own houses in the villages.

    I guess that is how the Americans come to the conclusion that all Chinese are Fu Manchu by accepting their CIA and NED’s mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism and constrained by the zero-sum cold war anti-China propaganda wholeheartedly without blinking an eye, right?

  125. FB says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Are you so fucking retarded that you can’t do simple arithmetic…?

    A grand total of 57 police officers in the entire decade of the 2000s…while those same ‘officers’ killed 10,000 PEOPLE IN THAT SAME TIME FRAME…

    Do the math idiot…it means a civilian is 175 TIMES MORE LIKELY to be shot by a cop than vice versa…175 fucking times…in most countries these numbers are about even…if not more police getting killed…both are very rare…

    You have a serious chemical imbalance in that tiny pea brain of yours…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @FKA Max
  126. utu says:
    @Iris

    Which means that as things will be getting better and more people will be moving to cities to take better jobs things will be getting worse in terms of house ownership.

  127. @FB

    No, this is not unique. Say, the same thing (eight farmers) holds planned expansion of Narita airport in Japan:
    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-12-29-mn-1911-story.html
    In fact, American “eminent domain” laws are rare. These laws amount to highway robbery by the “state” representing moneyed interests and nothing else.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Vidi
  128. FB says: • Website
    @Rich

    Grow up. Or at least draw your own cartoon.

    Okay…first you grow a brain…and then I’ll draw the cartoon…deal…?

    • Troll: Rich
    • Replies: @Rich
  129. Half-Jap says:
    @Lo

    Great response.
    The same invasion process has moved many Han into Tibet.
    My Chinese wife said she feels freer in the US than back home, although she hasn’t the slightest notion that the Constitution is mostly decorative, that people are SWAT’ed, are arrested merely for protesting even peacefully, that people are legally robbed by civil asset forfeiture, etc. The point is that fish do not know they are wet, that unawareness is bliss. The police in Beijing have been helpful, though one never knows whether one suddenly finds oneself changed with corruption or w/e and grabbed, as a few fellow laowai have experienced. Probably better than being droned.
    She also said that speaking against the CCP/gov won’t change anything or help anybody; just keep your head down and focus on your own life. These are practical people.
    BTW, the organ harvesting stuff is real, and we Japs are among the beneficiaries.

    • Replies: @Lo
  130. Joe Wong says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Falun Gong is cult same as Dalai Lama’s cult, they are all oppressive, barbaric, criminal and treacherous foreign agents. If Falun Gong dares to do similar things they did in China in the USA or any other country, they all long be banished and sent to Guantanamo Bay.

    The American and the West definitely do not believe trade-with-morality. They even mobilized national armed forces to sell Opium and cocaine in order to enrich themselves, and the whole West’s modernity was built on the profits they did trade-without-morality.

    The whole bloody World Wars and other wars in the last few hundreds of years were caused by the West’s trade-without-morality. The West should look in the mirror first before criticizing others in order to gloss over its ugly face and past.

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  131. Anon[134] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lo

    Every video blogger is an actor/actress by definition because she/he is performing in front of a camera. Her skill is real though, with or without a crew.

    When she first came on the scene in the Chinese internet in 2016 as a food blogger with self-made videos, most people thought she was an actress. It turned out she was a just regular village girl with a rather difficult life – Parents divorced, father died when she was young, step-mom abused a hell out of her. As a result, her grandparents took over the custody. After her grandfathered passed away, she dropped out of school at the age of 14 to work. Then her grandmother got serious ill, she moved back to the village to take care of her. That was when she started making videos to sell stuff on Taobao, a Chinese online shopping website. As she got better at making video, she tried different stuff . One thing led to another. Her self-made cooking videos started to take off. Now she could afford a few people to help her. She still lives with her grandmother in the village as her grandmother doesn’t want to move. The downside of fame is that people find out where you live and they want to visit you, which creates unnecessary hassle for her and her grandmother, and to an extend, the whole village.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Lo
  132. Anon[134] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    too late to edit. Her grandmother got seriously ill.

  133. Joe Wong says:
    @Matthew

    The West is in mess now, inequality is out of control, the 1% owns more than 50% of national wealth, gun violence is a daily occurrence, healthcare is not affordable, infrastructure is crumbling, etc., and democracy is not only not resolving any of these problems, but making them worse and polarizing society. Why can’t you Whiteman take a page from Chinese and makes a big bloody change for the better?

    • Agree: Iris
  134. FB says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    What…?

    That’s a totally different situation…one, it’s unique [there are thousands of ‘nail houses’]…a quick search turns up voluminous material…

    Two…did you read that article you pointed to…?…those farmers were about to be ‘expropriated by legal means’…until they lost their nerve, after some radicals bombed the offices of those officials…LOL

    Still, it’s true the Japanese are a bit more respectful than simply bulldozing people off which is the norm in the ‘democratic’ west…

    But this certainly doesn’t rise anywhere near the level of justice that is legally given in China on this issue…

    Swing and a miss…

  135. Biff says:
    @FKA Max

    I can’t think of one statistical model that would correlate gun ownership with police use of lethal force. Consider Switzerland where gun ownership is quite high and police use of lethal violence is extremely low. They simply do not correlate.

    My contention has always been it’s in the training.
    Rate of police killing per ten million:
    USA – 30.4
    China – 0.02

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_countries

    • Replies: @FB
  136. Lo says:
    @Half-Jap

    the Constitution is mostly decorative, that people are SWAT’ed, are arrested merely for protesting even peacefully, that people are legally robbed by civil asset forfeiture, etc.

    The Constitution is not merely decorative. People don’t know their country’s constitution. So those unconstitutional acts are ignored, and perpetrators can get away. Laws can most effectively protect those who know them. So you are right in the sense that ignorance of citizenry makes the Constitution decorative, moreover, it causes public servants to be more ignorant as well. Either that, or public officials willfully ignore the Constitution, and the US is a totalitarian state.

    She also said that speaking against the CCP/gov won’t change anything or help anybody; just keep your head down and focus on your own life. These are practical people.

    Yes, Chinese think that way. They have suffered enough in the past, now they are satisfied if they can just mind their business. It is also true that even criticism of the government is allowed in some cases, provided that they don’t do it in a high profile way like Ai Wei Wei.

    BTW, the organ harvesting stuff is real, and we Japs are among the beneficiaries.

    I don’t know much about it, I heard they harvest executed prisoners, in some cases, they also sell bodies to medical schools. I cannot say it is unbelievable. To Chinese mind it probably plays along the lines of “well, he died anyway, what use does he have for organs, let’s make use of it.”

  137. @Biff

    Here’s some quantification to back that up.

  138. @Franklin Ryckaert

    Perhaps you’ve fallen for another atrocity story?

    Falun Gong is a business started by a secular scam artist looking to do a pyramid scheme where adherents are forced to continually buy new “holy texts”.
    The Chinese government crackdown started in 1994 because of the number of people who were going bankrupt from buying all those “holy texts”. Then a Falun Gong genius staged an illegal protest in Tiananmen Square and the government decided to just shut the whole cult/scam down. Falun Gong is a business masquerading as a cult (like Scientology) derived from traditional Chinese spiritual and health beliefs (like western yoga) with restrictions on using modern medicine (like Jehovah’s Witnesses). It strictly educates and controls what its followers say and do, and is aim directly at taking down the Communist Party of China, so it happily profits from political arbitrage between China and the West.
    Falun Gong profits from Western fascination and ignorance of Chinese culture: their Shen Yun is billed as a spectacular Cirque du Soleil-style presentation of Chinese culture that the Communists destroyed. In reality, it’s a Disneyfied caricature of Chinese culture to indoctrinate audiences about Falun Gong. Falun Gong runs a propaganda campaign that’s far more sophisticated than the Communist Party of China. (Maybe they have help from a foreign agency with long experience in that field?)

    TIME: Why does chaos reign now?
    Li: … The second reason is that since the beginning of this century, aliens have begun to invade the human mind and its ideology and culture.

    TIME: Where do they come from?
    Li: The aliens come from other planets. The names that I use for these planets are different . Some are from dimensions that human beings have not yet discovered. The key is how they have corrupted mankind. Everyone knows that from the beginning until now, there has never been a development of culture like today. Although it has been several thousand years, it has never been like now.

    The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science. Li Hongzi interview in Time Magazine, Aug 9, 1999: Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews – TIME.com

    A year-long investigation by the Reuters news agency has uncovered an American business selling organs, and other body part donated to science, often without the knowledge of relatives. Under US law it is perfectly legal. Read Full Article at RT.com

    Money Trail between US Government And Falun Gong
    In a previous blog the financial connection between Epoch Times and Falun Gong Associations were revealed. Now, are there more funding sources for Falun Gong?

    Would you believe that US Congress may be funding Falun Gong? A quasi-government group found in the public records seem to suggest there’s another one of those “Charlie Wilson’s War” going on.

    Here’s the non-profit – Friends of Falun Gong. It is founded by former congressman Tom Lanto’s wife, Annette Lantos, and Ambassador Mark Palmer, who is linked to National Endowment for Democracy:

    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2001/134/145/2001-134145670-1-9.pdf
    (page 4, list of directors)

    It appears over 6 million dollars have been funneled to Falun Gong via this group in 5 years:

    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2005/134/145/2005-134145670-028e40ed-9.pdf
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/134/145/2004-134145670-01d39938-9.pdf
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/134/145/2003-134145670-1-9.pdf
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/134/145/2002-134145670-1-9.pdf

    So what is all this millions for? Public opinion? Ideological war? Foreign policy implement? Your guess is as good as mine.

    the financial connection between Falun Gong and Epoch Times is not a secret. Here’s the money trail found in non-profit declarations (Form 990, Page 2, Part III c):

    Southern USA Falun Dafa Association. $10,350 were given to Epoch Times in 2002, $22,700 in 2003, $14,750 in 2004:
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/760/692/2002-760692185-1-9.pdf
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/760/692/2003-760692185-1-9.pdf
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2004-760692185-1-9.pdf

    Falun Dafa Association of New England. $57,609 were spent on computer and print media, $97,755 in 2003, $116,823 in 2004:
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/043/576/2002-043576893-1-9.pdf
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/043/576/2003-043576893-1-Z.pdf
    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/043/576/2004-043576893-02038ba1-9.pdf

  139. Lo says:
    @Anon

    I didn’t say she didn’t have skills or she was completely fictitious. It is just that this is not about tradition. She is filling a niche, and acting for the millions of Chinese who left their villages to work in urban areas. Good for her, wish her grandma the best.

  140. @Franklin Ryckaert

    You’d have to know a lot more about China’s treatment of its minorities to understand the improbability of that. Values of RMB currency notes, for example, are expressed in Arabic and Tibetan. People are caught every year trying to claim minority status to get admitted to university, and minority numbers, as a % of China’s population, have doubled in 70 years.

    A dozen Muslims, all speaking the local language, wandering around Xinjiang like the 24 million tourists who dose every year, are hard to fool, especially when they’re looking for trouble.

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  141. @Olivier1973

    The US executes 1,000 citizens each year, without trial and no-one, except a few minorities, seems to object.

    • Agree: Olivier1973
  142. @The Alarmist

    Immigrants cannot compete.

    The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective
    By Puzhong Yao. American Affairs.

    https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/11/western-elite-chinese-perspective/

    [MORE]

    The Evangelical Christians I have met in the United States often talk about how reading the Bible changed their lives. They talk about being born again.
    I am not an Evangelical Christian. I am a Chinese atheist who came to the West to study at the world’s best universities and, later, to work at one of capitalism’s greatest companies, Goldman Sachs.
    But, like the Evangelical Christians, my life was changed by a book. Specifically, Robert Rubin’s autobiography In an Uncertain World (Random House, 2003). Robert Rubin was Goldman Sachs’s senior partner and subsequently secretary of the Treasury. Only later did I learn that certain people in the United States revere him as something of a god.
    I first bought the book because I was puzzled by the title, especially coming from a man who had achieved so much. I had always thought that things happen for reasons. My parents taught me that good people get rewarded while evil gets punished. My teachers at school taught me that if you work hard, you will succeed, and if you never try, you will surely fail. When I picked up the book, I was studying math at Cambridge University and, as I looked back at the standardized tests and intense study that had defined my life until then, I could see no uncertainty.
    But since reading Rubin’s book, I have come to see the world differently. Robert Rubin never intended to become the senior partner of Goldman Sachs: a few years into his career, he even handed in his resignation. Just as in Rubin’s career, I find that maybe randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor. And those reasons we assign to historical events are often just ex post rationalizations. As rising generations are taught the rationalizations, they conclude that things always happen for a reason. Meanwhile, I keep wondering: is there someone, sitting in a comfortable chair somewhere, flipping a coin from time to time, deciding what happens in the world?
    Most Americans that I have met seem confused about this question. Perhaps it is understandable since most of them are not in finance and have not read Rubin’s book. Their goal is always to change something—Stanford business school’s motto is “change lives, change organizations, change the world”—though they rarely seem to know what or how. Or what the role of chance and circumstance is. But if the goal is to change something, they must have the ability to determine the future, mustn’t they? The great American dream itself is a determination to take control of one’s own destiny and live an extraordinary life from an ordinary background. Yet how is this possible in Rubin’s uncertain world?
    I don’t claim to be a modern-day Alexis de Tocqueville, nor do I have much in common with this famous observer of American life. He grew up in Paris, a city renowned for its culture and architecture. I grew up in Shijiazhuang, a city renowned for being the headquarters of the company that produced toxic infant formula. He was a child of aristocrats; I am the child of modest workers.
    Nevertheless, I hope my candid observations can provide some insights into the elite institutions of the West. Certain beliefs are as ubiquitous among the people I went to school with as smog was in Shijiazhuang. The doctrines that shape the worldviews and cultural assumptions at elite Western institutions like Cambridge, Stanford, and Goldman Sachs have become almost religious. Nevertheless, I hope that the perspective of a candid Chinese atheist can be of some instruction to them.
    From Shijiazhuang to Cambridge
    It was the summer of 2000. I was 15, and I had just finished my high school entrance exam in China. I had made considerable improvements from where I started in first grade, when I had the second- worst grades in the class and had to sit at a desk perpendicular to the blackboard so that the teacher could keep a close eye on me. I had managed to become an average student in an average school. My parents by then had reached the conclusion that I was not going anywhere promising in China and were ready to send me abroad for high school. Contrary to all expectations, however, I got the best mark in my class and my school. The exam scores were so good that I ranked within the top ten among more than 100,000 students in the whole city. My teacher and I both assumed the score was wrong when we first heard it.
    As a consequence, I got into the best class in the best school in my city, and thus began the most painful year of my life. My newfound confidence was quickly crushed when I saw how talented my new classmates were. In the first class, our math teacher announced that she would start from chapter four of the textbook, as she assumed, correctly, that most of us were familiar with the first three chapters and would find it boring to go through them again. Most of the class had been participating in various competitions in middle school and had become familiar with a large part of the high school syllabus already. Furthermore, they had also grown to know each other from those years of competitions together. And here I was, someone who didn’t know anything or anyone, surrounded by people who knew more to begin with, who were much smarter, and who worked just as hard as I did. What chance did I have?
    During that year, I tried very hard to catch up: I gave up everything else and even moved somewhere close to the school to save time on the commute, but to no avail. Over time, going to school and competing while knowing I was sure to lose became torture. Yet I had to do it every day. At the end-of-year exam, I scored second from the bottom of the class—the same place where I began in first grade. But this time it was much harder to accept, after the glory I had enjoyed just one year earlier and the huge amount of effort I had put into studying this year. Finally, I threw in the towel, and asked my parents to send me abroad. Anywhere else on this earth would surely be better.
    So I came to the UK in 2001, when I was 16 years old. Much to my surprise, I found the UK’s exam-focused educational system very similar to the one in China. What is more, in both countries, going to the “right schools” and getting the “right job” are seen as very important by a large group of eager parents. As a result, scoring well on exams and doing well in school interviews—or even the play session for the nursery or pre-prep school—become the most important things in the world. Even at the university level, the undergraduate degree from the University of Cambridge depends on nothing else but an exam at the end of the last year.
    On the other hand, although the UK’s university system is considered superior to China’s, with a population that is only one-twentieth the size of my native country, competition, while tough, is less intimidating. For example, about one in ten applicants gets into Oxbridge in the UK, and Stanford and Harvard accept about one in twenty-five applicants. But in Hebei province in China, where I am from, only one in fifteen hundred applicants gets into Peking or Qinghua University.
    Still, I found it hard to believe how much easier everything became. I scored first nationwide in the GCSE (high school) math exam, and my photo was printed in a national newspaper. I was admitted into Trinity College, University of Cambridge, once the home of Sir Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon, and Prince Charles.
    I studied economics at Cambridge, a field which has become more and more mathematical since the 1970s. The goal is always to use a mathematical model to find a closed-form solution to a real-world problem. Looking back, I’m not sure why my professors were so focused on these models. I have since found that the mistake of blindly relying on models is quite widespread in both trading and investing—often with disastrous results, such as the infamous collapse of the hedge fund Long-Term Capital Management. Years later, I discovered the teaching of Warren Buffett: it is better to be approximately right than precisely wrong. But our professors taught us to think of the real world as a math problem.
    The culture of Cambridge followed the dogmas of the classroom: a fervent adherence to rules and models established by tradition. For example, at Cambridge, students are forbidden to walk on grass. This right is reserved for professors only. The only exception is for those who achieve first class honors in exams; they are allowed to walk on one area of grass on one day of the year.
    The behavior of my British classmates demonstrated an even greater herd mentality than what is often mocked in American MBAs. For example, out of the thirteen economists in my year at Trinity, twelve would go on to join investment banks, and five of us went to work for Goldman Sachs.
    Goldman Sachs and My Brilliant Inflation Trade
    Three years later, I graduated with first class honors and got a job offer from Goldman’s Fixed Income, Currency and Commodity division, the division founded by my hero Rubin. It seemed like whatever I wished would simply come true. But inside, I feared that one day these glories would pass. After all, not long ago, I was at the bottom of my class in China. And if I could not even catch up with my classmates in a city few people have even heard of, how am I now qualified to go to Cambridge University or Goldman? Have I gotten smarter? Or is it just that British people are stupider than the Chinese?
    With these mixed thoughts, I began working as a trader at Goldman in 2007. Goldman’s unofficial motto is “be long-term greedy.” I found that my Goldman colleagues were very smart and competitive. However, I actually didn’t see much of the “long-term” part of the “long-term greedy” culture. Goldman Sachs, even with its reputation as the top investment bank, has been involved in scandals in mortgage products, trades with the Greek government, its links with Malaysia’s corrupt 1MDB, and so on. Maybe this is due to the fact that Goldman is now a public company with a quarterly earnings call. Maybe it is because the position of the trading desk where I worked was marked to market in real time. When you see the number change in front of you from second to second—and especially when that number is not going in the right direction—even one day can feel like eternity. That tells you how long-term oriented traders are in general.
    My job at Goldman was a mixture of making markets to facilitate client trades and finding trades for the bank’s own book. In early 2009, I believed it was an excellent trade to go long UK inflation. In fact, I thought it was such a good trade that my biggest worry was that there wouldn’t be anyone who would want to be on the other side of it. Yet we managed to put this trade on versus a British bank. In the following year, the trade worked wonders, with UK inflation steadily rising, making the bank tens of millions in profits.
    I thought I was an amazing trader. But there was a slight problem: I wanted to do the trade because I thought the market was pricing UK interest rates to go up. And when interest rates go up, UK inflation would rise mechanically due to the way it is defined and calculated. But in that year, the Bank of England didn’t raise interest rates at all. Rather, the increase in inflation was due to things like tax increases, exchange rate fluctuations, oil price moves, etc.—things I didn’t anticipate at all. It was pure luck that I made money, and I made it for the wrong reason.
    When I was an intern, in one of the training presentations, a senior banker told us to distinguish between the process and the results. He said that we should focus on the process, which we can control, rather than the result, which is subject to luck. And here at Goldman, he said, we don’t punish people for losing money for the right reason. I have always loved asking questions, so I asked him, was anyone ever punished for making money for the wrong reason? After giving it some thought, he said that he had not heard of any such thing. And he was right. In fact, no one seemed to remember the reason I did the inflation trade at all. They only remembered that I did this trade and that it worked well.
    When I met with my manager for a performance review after this, I was expecting to be berated for my poor judgment. Instead, I got promoted! I told my manager that it was a mistake, but he merely said, “Puzhong, tell no one.” He too was promoted on the basis of managing my “brilliant” trade. In fact, my manager was so proud of my work he recommended me to Stanford’s prestigious Graduate School of Business (GSB), and I soon set off for America.
    One thing that I learned at Goldman was that, to rise through the ranks, it was not enough to just be a good trader. It was also essential to be able to manage one’s boss, other colleagues, and those who report to them. I never paid any attention to those things. I hoped to learn about them in business school.
    Coming to America
    To me, Costco represents the best of American capitalism. It is a corporation known for having its customers and employees in mind, while at the same time it has compensated its shareholders handsomely over the years. To the customers, it offers the best combination of quality and low cost. Whenever it manages to reduce costs, it passes the savings on to customers immediately. Achieving a 10 percent gross margin with prices below Amazon’s is truly incredible. After I had been there once, I found it hard to shop elsewhere.
    Meanwhile, its salaries are much higher than similar retail jobs. When the recession hit in 2008, the company increased salaries to help employees cope with the difficult environment. From the name tags the staff wear, I have seen that frontline employees work there for decades, something hard to imagine elsewhere.
    Stanford was for me a distant second to Costco in terms of the American capitalist experience. Overall, I enjoyed the curriculum at the GSB. Inevitably I found some classes less interesting, but the professors all seemed to be quite understanding, even when they saw me reading my kindle during class.
    One class was about strategy. It focused on how corporate mottos and logos could inspire employees. Many of the students had worked for nonprofits or health care or tech companies, all of which had mottos about changing the world, saving lives, saving the planet, etc. The professor seemed to like these mottos. I told him that at Goldman our motto was “be long-term greedy.” The professor couldn’t understand this motto or why it was inspiring. I explained to him that everyone else in the market was short-term greedy and, as a result, we took all their money. Since traders like money, this was inspiring. He asked if perhaps there was another motto or logo that my other classmates might connect with. I told him about the black swan I kept on my desk as a reminder that low probability events happen with high frequency. He didn’t like that motto either and decided to call on another student, who had worked at Pfizer. Their motto was “all people deserve to live healthy lives.” The professor thought this was much better. I didn’t understand how it would motivate employees, but this was exactly why I had come to Stanford: to learn the key lessons of interpersonal communication and leadership.
    On the communication and leadership front, I came to the GSB knowing I was not good and hoped to get better. My favorite class was called “Interpersonal Dynamics” or, as students referred to it, “Touchy Feely.” In “Touchy Feely,” students get very candid feedback on how their words and actions affect others in a small group that meets several hours per week for a whole quarter.
    We talked about microaggressions and feelings and empathy and listening. Sometimes in class the professor would say things to me like “Puzhong, when Mary said that, I could see you were really feeling something,” or “Puzhong, I could see in your eyes that Peter’s story affected you.” And I would tell them I didn’t feel anything. I was quite confused.
    One of the papers we studied mentioned that subjects are often not conscious of their own feelings when fully immersed in a situation. But body indicators such as heart rate would show whether the person is experiencing strong emotions. I thought that I generally didn’t have a lot of emotions and decided that this might be a good way for me to discover my hidden emotions that the professor kept asking about.
    So I bought a heart rate monitor and checked my resting heart rate. Right around 78. And when the professor said to me in class “Puzhong, I can see that story brought up some emotions in you,” I rolled up my sleeve and checked my heart rate. It was about 77. And so I said, “nope, no emotion.” The experiment seemed to confirm my prior belief: my heart rate hardly moved, even when I was criticized, though it did jump when I became excited or laughed.
    This didn’t land well on some of my classmates. They felt I was not treating these matters with the seriousness that they deserved. The professor was very angry. My takeaway was that my interpersonal skills were so bad that I could easily offend people unintentionally, so I concluded that after graduation I should do something that involved as little human interaction as possible.
    Therefore, I decided I needed to return to work in financial markets rather than attempting something else. I went to the career service office and told them that my primary goal after the MBA was to make money. I told them that $500,000 sounded like a good number. They were very confused, though, as they said their goal was to help me find my passion and my calling. I told them that my calling was to make money for my family. They were trying to be helpful, but in my case, their advice didn’t turn out to be very helpful.
    Eventually I was able to meet the chief financial officer of my favorite company, Costco. He told me that they don’t hire any MBAs. Everyone starts by pushing trolleys. (I have seriously thought about doing just that. But my wife is strongly against it.) Maybe, I thought, that is why the company is so successful—no MBAs!
    An Uncertain World
    In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be. A few years ago, I was reading an autobiography of a Chinese girl named Nian, who went to study in the UK when she was young. (Someone once said that it is necessary to know English in order to learn about China. Important perspectives on China are only available in English and are generally not accessible on the mainland.) She studied at the London School of Economics and met her husband. After graduation, Nian, her husband, and all their friends went back to China.
    Her life, up to that point, was very similar to the life that I have been living. And I am sure that, at the time, she was as optimistic about her life as we are today about ours. But she went to the UK in 1935, and she went back to China around the founding of the People’s Republic of China. Her education abroad, in a capitalist country, and her belief in individual rights and freedom often placed her on the wrong side of various political campaigns and the Cultural Revolution. She lost numerous friends and family members, including her husband and daughter during these years. She barely survived a long period of imprisonment herself. It was not until the 1980s when she managed to get a passport and could move to live with her relatives abroad. On the ship to Hong Kong, she kept thinking about her decision to return to China all those years ago.
    As I finished her story, I kept thinking about the similarities and differences between Nian’s life and my own. What would have happened to her if she was living in the present time, or what would happen to me if I had been born seventy years earlier? What I realized is that if we look at one individual’s life in isolation, it is very tempting to come to the conclusion that one’s particular actions lead to whatever happens next. But if we look at the society as a whole or look across generations, we can see that people with very similar backgrounds can take similar actions and end up with vastly different results.
    Warren Buffett has said that the moment one was born in the United States or another Western country, that person has essentially won a lottery. If someone is born a U.S. citizen, he or she enjoys a huge advantage in almost every aspect of life, including expected wealth, education, health care, environment, safety, etc., when compared to someone born in developing countries. For someone foreign to “purchase” these privileges, the price tag at the moment is $1 million dollars (the rough value of the EB-5 investment visa). Even at this price level, the demand from certain countries routinely exceeds the annual allocated quota, resulting in long waiting times. In that sense, American citizens were born millionaires!
    Yet one wonders how long such luck will last. This brings me back to the title of Rubin’s book, his “uncertain world.” In such a world, the vast majority things are outside our control, determined by God or luck. After we have given our best and once the final card is drawn, we should neither become too excited by what we have achieved nor too depressed by what we failed to achieve. We should simply acknowledge the result and move on. Maybe this is the key to a happy life.
    On the other hand, it seems odd that this should be the principal lesson of a Western education. In Communist China, I was taught that hard work would bring success. In the land of the American dream, I learned that success comes through good luck, the right slogans, and monitoring your own—and others’—emotions.
    This article originally appeared in American Affairs Volume I, Number 4 (Winter 2017): 77–86.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    , @Anonymous
  143. @Rich

    The US executes 1,000 people without trial every year.

    US police killed 1,166 people in 2015, more than three a day, but an official US government count misclassified over half of the deaths, according to a new study..More than half of all police killings in 2015 were incorrectly classified as not having been police-related, a Harvard study based on data by The Guardian has found. http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/10/13/538472/US-police-killing-study

    Justice Department report estimates nearly 2,000 “arrest-related deaths” annually in US
     https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/12/19/poli-d19.html
    By our reporter
    19 December 2016

    [MORE]

    A new report released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 1,900 “arrest-related deaths” occurred in the United States between June 2015 and May 2016. The number of police killings, or homicides, recorded by the BJS is more than twice the number reported by the FBI. The BJS, a division of the US Justice Department, defines “arrest-related deaths” as all deaths “that occur during the process of arrest or during an attempt to obtain custody” by state or local police agencies. This would include, for example, people who die of a heart attack or commit suicide while being arrested, but would not include individuals shot by police officers who are not on active duty.
    Despite the enormous number of people killed by police every year, there is no reliable or standardized method for calculating the figure. The FBI’s annual report is based on voluntary reports from local police agencies, many of which do not submit figures. Web sites like Killed By Police and the Guardian’s The Counted rely on media reports, but not all deaths are reported in news stories.
    The BJS report is based on a combination of media reports and a more systematic survey of police agencies. Based on media accounts, it identified 1,348 potential arrest-related deaths between June 2015 and March 2016, or an average of about 135 per month. It requested reports from local police to confirm or deny media tallies and identify other deaths, which resulted in a 12 percent increase in deaths for this period.
    The 1,900 estimate is based on the full media survey from June 2015 to May 2016, plus an additional 12 percent extrapolated from the three-month survey of police agencies.
    The BJS estimated that 64 percent of the deaths were homicides (that is, willful killings), while 18 percent were suicides and 11 percent were “accidents.” This would mean that about 1,216 fall under the category of police killings.
    In comparison, the Guardian has recorded 1,026 individuals killed by police so far this year and 1,146 total last year.
    The vast majority of police killings are never covered by the national media, and are buried in three- or four-paragraph summaries in local media, if reported at all. The individuals killed are from all racial backgrounds and ages, though overwhelmingly they are poor or working class. Some of the deaths are related to the commission of violent crimes, but most are a product of desperate social conditions and a brutal and disproportionate police response.
    Among the recent killings this past week are:
    * An unidentified 44-year-old man in Everett, Washington who was fatally shot Saturday night after police claim he reached for an officer’s gun during a struggle that followed a domestic violence incident.
    * Jeffery Lee Lawson, 48, who was shot and killed Saturday night in Shelby County, Tennessee after police claim he threatened them with a knife while in his driveway. His wife had previously reported that Lawson was bipolar but did not always take his medication.
    * Marlon Lewis, 37, died of cardiac arrest on Thursday after police in Badin, North Carolina used a Taser on him repeatedly. Police claim that Lewis, a father of two, was resisting arrest, but his sister said that he had called 911 for help and told police that someone was trying to kill him.
    * Steven Garett Ward, 20, was shot in Jefferson Township, Pennsylvania after police responded to a domestic dispute call on December 7. He died last week. Police claim that he walked towards them with a knife in his hand.
    These killings follow the shooting of Francisco Serna, a 73-year-old man suffering from dementia, by Bakersfield, California police last weekend. Police say they shot and killed the man in his neighbor’s driveway when he refused to take his hands out of his pockets. He was unarmed and had been holding a wooden crucifix in his jacket.
    An autopsy released on Thursday reported that Serna was struck by five of the seven bullets shot at him by police officer Reagan Selman.
    Based on the averages published by the BJS for 2015, something on the order of 10,000 people have been killed by police during the eight years of the Obama administration. Since protests erupted over the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri in August 2014, the number of police killings has, if anything, only increased.
    Along with an overall policy of war and social reaction, the incoming Trump administration has pledged to give police greater powers and an even freer hand to commit violence throughout the country.

    • Replies: @Rich
  144. @Galan

    The Chinese are not fools. Not only did Mao study our Founding Fathers, he took their advice.

    “However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”FAREWELL ADDRESS | SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 1796

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  145. @Stevek9

    That was true when we went to school. Not any more. According to the Japan Science and Technology Agency, China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields.

    The Allen Institute for Artificial Intelligence (Ai2) examined not just the number of AI research papers coming from China but the quality of those papers—as judged by the number of citations they receive in other work. The study suggests that China will overtake the US in the most-cited 50% of research papers this year, the top 10% of research papers in 2020, and the top 1% by 2025.
    China has overtaken the US to become the world’s largest producer of scientific research papers, making up almost a fifth of the total global output, according to a major new report. https://www.stm-assoc.org/document-library/
    The World Intellectual Property Organization, WIPO, ranked 167 universities and public research universities for the top 500 patent applications. 110 of the patents were from China, 20 from the United States and 19 from South Korea. China dominates a global ranking of the most-cited research papers published in the 30 hottest technology fields.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  146. @eah

    Rich folk who can’t make it into a Chinese university. China has been an intellectual meritocracy for 2100 years. No inherited rights.

    • Disagree: Escher
    • Replies: @eah
    , @Escher
  147. @peterAUS

    We Americans have been the tallest people on earth for two centuries but in 2005, after a trip to Amsterdam, I noticed that the average Dutchman (and even woman) was inches taller than me. Since height is an indicator of national wellbeing I looked for explanations and what I found alarmed me: our healthy life expectancy, wages, longevity and education levels were static or falling and homelessness and poverty were rising. I compiled every social statistic I could find, published them in a glossy book and mailed copies to DC politicians and department heads, asking if they were they aware of our drift. My one reply was a thoughtful letter from the Director General of the CIA, reassuring me that the Agency briefs the government annually on national and international statistical trends.

    I set the project aside until, after encountering homeless San Franciscans in 2015, I stumbled on a UNICEF report[1]. Fifteen percent of Americans were living in poverty and we were thirtieth in the world in literacy, thirty-fifth in child poverty, fifty-third in life expectancy and fifty-fourth in infant mortality. Alarmingly, we ranked[2] thirty-third in political killings and torture, forty-seventh in political rights, sixty-seventh in discrimination and violence against minorities, eighty-eighth in homicides and one hundred and ninetieth in incarcerations. A quick check of the Congressional Register revealed not one piece major health, safety or human rights legislation after 1974. On the other side of the world The Guardian[3] reported that, for the first time in history, poverty had vanished from Chinese cities and would soon disappear from the countryside and that Chinese children had beaten American youngsters in international school tests. By 2019 the trends showed that, in 2022, five hundred million urban Chinese will have a higher net worth and more disposable income than the average American and their kids will finish school three years ahead of ours and live longer, healthier lives.

    How had a developing country–the world’s poorest when I was born–solved almost every social problem that has plagued the world for millennia, in just seventy years?

    Could their solution be useful to us? Apparently not.


    [1] https://data.unicef.org
    [2] https://www.socialprogress.org/
    [3] China has almost wiped out urban poverty.
    Elizabeth Stuart. Wed 19 Aug 2015. The Guardian .

  148. FKA Max says:
    @FB

    Study: 3 million Americans carry loaded handguns daily

    ““It was important to study handgun carrying because about 90 percent of all firearm homicides and nonfatal firearm crimes for which the type of firearm is known are committed with a handgun,” said Rowhani-Rahbar, who is also leads the study of violence prevention at UW Medicine’s Harborview Injury Prevention and Research Center.” – https://epi.washington.edu/news/3-million-americans-carry-loaded-handguns-daily

    “The majority of gun-owning households in Canada own rifles and/or shotguns” – https://cssa-cila.org/rights/ten-myths-about-gun-control/

    “Why do so many Finns own firearms?

    They’re hunters. The Finns have hunted and fished for food for thousands of years, with agriculture only catching up as a major food source in the 20th century.” – https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2009/12/why-are-there-so-many-guns-in-finland.html

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @FB
  149. @utu

    Of the bottom 25% of Chinese, 98% own their homes. The national average is 87%

  150. eah says:
    @eah

    Blacks and Hispanics

    Also: how many Jews does China have? — how many ‘Holocaust’ memorials are there in China?

    • Replies: @eah
    , @Anonymous
  151. @Joe Wong

    “…Falun Gong is cult same as Dalai Lama’s cult, they are all oppressive, barbaric, criminal and treacherous foreign agents…”

    Sounds suspiciously like official horror propaganda to me. The Dalai Lama “cult” is authentic Tibetan Buddhism and not “foreign” in Tibet at all. Falun Gong is the creation of a Chinese man (again not a “foreigner”) and is essentially a meditation technique which is spread over the Internet and not really an “organization” at all. But because Falun Gong is more popular than the communist party, the Chinese government, which wants no less than total control of its population, feels treatened and perhaps a bit jealous too. Going against the spiritual aspirations of its own people the Chinese government with its materialist ideology will ultimately dig its own grave, no matter how much material benefit it will provide.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    , @Godfree Roberts
  152. Vidi says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Don’t you suspect they got the “Potemkin Villages” treatment?

    Xinjiang is enormous, over twice the size of Texas. The autonomous region couldn’t possibly be sealed so tightly that the World Muslim Council couldn’t send spies there if they thought China was lying. They didn’t have to, which says much about the honesty of the West’s “journalism”.

  153. @Godfree Roberts

    China may treat its minorities well, but only if they don’t aspire for independence, especially if those minorities didn’t belong to China in the first place and were incorporated against their own will, such as was the case with the Uyghurs and the Tibetans. The Chinese government tries to “solve” such problems by settling millions of Han Chinese in those areas which will make them powerless minorities, while their authentic culture (especially their religion) is suppressed. I’m afraid you will have to abandon your China = Utopia idea.

  154. FKA Max says:
    @FB

    “each year”

    “There has been an average of 55 traffic-related deaths each year in the current decade, with an average of 54 firearm-related deaths.” – https://www.npr.org/2018/12/27/680410169/more-police-officers-died-from-gunfire-than-traffic-incidents-in-2018-report-say

    ~550 police firearm-related police officer deaths per decade

    10,000 persons killed by police officers / 550 police officers killed by gunfire = ~18x

    “But the NLEOMF found that 64 officers were killed in firearm-related incidents in 2016 — a 56 percent increase over 2015, when 41 officers were killed. It’s the highest number of firearms-related deaths recorded since 2011, when the tally was 73.” – https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/30/507536360/number-of-police-officers-killed-by-firearms-rose-in-2016-study-finds

  155. eah says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Rich folk who can’t make it into a Chinese university.

    Huh? — they go there to have babies who will then be US citizens — how do/could they know whether their kids will be able to get into a Chinese university later or not? — do they fear their kids will not be able to earn admission to any Chinese university? — maybe our betters the Chinese should build more universities to provide education for their children — anyway, you should do these naive Chinese parents a favor and inform them that admission to US universities is largely meritocratic too.

    You say nothing about the enormous social and economic problem posed by Blacks and Hispanics in the US, a problem China does not have, and how as a result your INTERNAL SECURITY graphic is somewhat intellectually dishonest — “imagine my surprise” — in fact, one could say it is amazing the US is able to remain relatively competitive given the deadweight fraction of its population.

  156. @Godfree Roberts

    No I will not call Mao a “fool”, I will call him a monster, guilty of the death of some 70 million people (as per Jung Chang’s Mao, the Unknown Story).
    I will call however ordinary Chinese “fools” who still worship this monster.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  157. Lo says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    This graph does not deny income inequality in China, it denies your argument. It says that:

    1. France has the most equal distribution of incomes among these countries,
    2. China’s income inequality had grown considerably in the last 40 years,
    3. Top 10% takes too much in the US, while the bottom 50% is screwed.

    Moreover, China’s income rise has much to do with a very low starting point. It is not like it went from $10k to $80k.

    • Replies: @Iris
    , @Godfree Roberts
  158. @Godfree Roberts

    “…Since height is an indicator of national wellbeing…”

    It is an indication of heredity plus national wellbeing.

  159. @Godfree Roberts

    “…Falun Gong runs a propaganda campaign that’s far more sophisticated than the Communist Party of China…”

    There you have it! The Communist Party with its barren materialism and rote sloganism is feeling jealous.

    That the CIA or another US agency tries to use Falong Gong for its own political purposes says nothing about its original aim. The CIA has done the same with Tibetan Buddhism, which is older than the US itself.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @FB
    , @Godfree Roberts
  160. Vidi says:
    @AnonFromTN

    In fact, American “eminent domain” laws are rare. These laws amount to highway robbery by the “state” representing moneyed interests and nothing else.

    Maybe not that rare.

    https://ij.org/action-post/foul-ball-ten-cities-that-used-eminent-domain-for-sports-stadiums/
    Foul ball: ten cities that used eminent domain for sports stadiums

    “The city of Arlington used eminent domain to obtain 13 acres for the Rangers Ballpark in 1991. One investor, George W. Bush, transformed his initial $606,302 investment into $14.9 million when the team changed hands in 1998. That’s quite a profit for someone who campaigned for private property rights in 1994.”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  161. Vidi says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    China may treat its minorities well, but only if they don’t aspire for independence

    Do you know what happened to the Confederacy when it declared its independence from the United States? Very few countries are amused by separatist movements — especially if those movements are mostly funded by some foreigners.

  162. Anonymous[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    See this is exactly the kind of doublethink bullshit I’m pointing out.
    Answer me this moron; which foreign countries have openly and verifiably launched boots on the ground in Venezuela? Because it sure as hell isn’t America, despite all your fear-mongering.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  163. Biff says:
    @FKA Max

    That say you’re pretty handy with a gun?

    • LOL: FB
  164. Vidi says:
    @Xytil

    I even doubt the concept of morality is a discernable entity in the insect-like psyche of the Chinese.

    That shows how little you know (or how brainwashed you are). Confucianism is practically all about morality.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  165. @AnonFromTN

    Try this : organharvestinvestigation.net/

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  166. Vidi says:
    @Johnny Rottenborough

    [China’s] vast system of detention without trial has drawn condemnation from the State Department and Congress, but no sanctions, and only scattered criticism in Europe and at the United Nations.

    Some people in China’s re-education camps: link to picture.

    See the sullen people being whipped? You don’t? Perhaps the picture doesn’t show all the whip-wielding, gun-toting soldiers forcing all the people to smile.

  167. peterAUS says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    How had a developing country–the world’s poorest when I was born–solved almost every social problem that has plagued the world for millennia, in just seventy years?

    Solved almost every social problem…………………….

    You know….well…if you really believe that and that makes you happy, that’s fine.
    Even better if you can make some living out of it.

    All good.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  168. @Rabbitnexus

    People are in some ways different and in some ways the same. A-priori you can’t tell. One engages and in the material, another in the spiritual. To both the other’s path could be anathema.

    The golden rule offers a perfect information (assuming people know their own preferences) minimum baseline to right action (assuming people desire good for themselves). But the presumption as to the similarity or difference of another person’s preferences is, in the realm of epistemology, placing inference above direct observation. And the golden rule is the former, whilst the platinum the latter.

    ‘I like kefir, so you like kefir’ – how do you know? Because you infer? But this is not practical/factual knowledge. This is ideological knowledge, which is at best an estimate. Sure for some aspects like the desire for life it is more obvious than for fermented milk preferences, but even then there is no practical absolute. People have the right to life, but don’t they also have the right to die?

    The platinum rule is also imperfect because you can’t pursue action independently, of your own accord. It is information imperfect. But if the information can be gained from the other party, in which case it becomes equal or superior to the golden rule with respect to any action towards the other. Equal if the preferences match, superior if they don’t.

    The platinum rule serves as the sometimes unachievable high end of right action, whilst the golden rule serves as the always possible low end.

    Also, starting with the golden rule pushes a mind to ego and self certainty – towards proselytising and force. Starting with considerstion for the other instantly limits such thought.

  169. @Godfree Roberts

    I agree about immigrants. The US is a nation founded by European “immigrants” who almost thoroughly displaced the previous inhabitants, but is now deluding itself with the belief that all immigrants are equal in KSAs.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  170. Whitewolf says:
    @Xytil

    Life is cheap in China. The place apparently has a huge shortage of females because rural Chinese were often killing their newborn girls.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  171. Whitewolf says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    How had a developing country–the world’s poorest when I was born–solved almost every social problem that has plagued the world for millennia, in just seventy years?

    Well apart from having an authoritarian government that can enforce change at a fast pace they had a lot of help from the west. Almost all those factories producing almost everything we see in stores were shipped over by western companies. The transfer of manufacturing to China was massive to say the least. The removal of tariffs was the catalyst that started the ball rolling.

  172. FKA Max says:
    @FB

    U.S. population ~320 million / ~1000 deaths caused by police officers per year = 1 in 320,000

    U.S. police officer population ~1.1 million / ~57 police officers killed by gunfire per year = 1 in 19,300

    Source: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/nsleed.pdf

  173. @Rabbitnexus

    Rights don’t get ‘granted’: if something is a grant, it is held at the whim of the person who has power to make that grant. If someone can legitimately take away something you think is a right, it’s not a right. That’s really the whole point: a right is something that cannot be infringed by a person acting justly.

    It’s really important to keep that in mind, but I also acknowledge that it’s also not very helpful in situations where the rightsholder does not have any mechanism to prevent their rights being violated.

    This is something that people have thought about for a very very long time.

    My personal conclusion is that as an individual endowed with rights, I am morally justified if I try to prevent someone from violating my rights – whereas the would-be violator is morally unjustified (and is in the wrong).

    That doesn’t mean the would-be violator doesn’t succeed: sometime power beatrs right.

    For example, the entire premise of States (and governments) is false – provably, mathematically, axiomatically so. As such, any coercive action they undertake is violation of the rights of every unwilling participant… however the vast majority of the citizenry, not really understanding the shibboleth of ‘representantive’ government, think that State violence against dissenters is legitimate (in the sense of being the outcome of a morally-justifiable conceptual framework).

    To give an example: an antelope has a right not to be killed and eaten, but it has fuck-all mechanisms for enforcing those rights.

    When a lion eats the antelope, the antelope’s rights are infringed. The lion has a right to sustain itself, and the only mechanism that it has at its disposal is to kill and eat antelopes – but the exigency of the circumstances do not make the rights-violation disappear.

    And so it is with all non-voluntary systems: coercion infringes on key negative rights and is welfare-reducing for those whose rights are infringed.

    (We should not even use the term ‘positive rights‘ – they are a shibboleth, because the moment a person is deemed to have a ‘right’ to receive some positive thing “X”, someone else has to pay for the “X” in question… if the funding for “X” is given willingly it’s a grant or gift… and if it’s funded coercively it’s an infringement on the rights of those whose productivity is forcible extracted to fund “X”).

    When some people say that “rights don’t exist” they are making a category error: they usually have some notion of positive rights, or of rights with an accompanying structure that includes mechanisms to protect those rights.

    Rights can, and do, exist independent of the presence or otherwise of the means to prevent violations. As I said above – that’s unhelpful: what’s the point of rights if the only thing they help is the determination of who is in the wrong?

    To wit: the million or so German women raped by Allied soldiers in the aftermath of WWII: they had the right not to be raped. The people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki an Tokyo and Dresden: they had the right not to be bombed. Every murder victim has to right not to be murdered.

    As I always say when someone pretends that they think that rights don’t exist…in that case why do we punish murderers, thieves and rapists? If rights are a fiction, murdering someone is not violating their rights.

  174. Rogue says:
    @Monotonous Languor

    Mostly agree with you.

    The West has made a decision, so it seems, to reject Christianity.

    And as you correctly say, said West is now heading down the crapper.

  175. @eah

    Exactly. Police violence is a real problem in America, no question. But talking about it without reference to the extreme social dysfunction of the Black (in particular) underclass is just dishonest. Any valid points this article makes are drowned out by this gaping blind spot, a bit like reading an otherwise good Chomsky article on US foreign policy that omits mention of Israel.

  176. says:

    FKA Max, 178, thanks for reminding us of another thing about China! While armed-to-the-teeth pussy US cops kill another poor bastard every shift, Chinese cops walk around with nightsticks like the good old days. Instead of opening up everytime their flabby coward asses get afwaid like contemptible US timmie cops, a Chinese cop will bop you and reason with you.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  177. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Godfree Roberts

    Godfree Roberts says: “Why promote a lie? Read this: http://www.unz.com/article/tiananmen-square-1989-revisited/

    Another of your attempts at diversion/ avoidance/obfuscation.

    My post was not about what did or did not happen during the Tiananmen Square demonstrations.

    It was a link to an article about the Chinese governments CURRENT censorship policy whereby it is apparently obsessed with removing any/all content relating to those demonstrations from the Chinese internet system in advance of the upcoming 30th anniversary of those events :

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-tiananmen-censorship-idUSKCN1SW03Y

    Regardless of whether or not lies were/are perpetuated about Tiananmen Square, IF the the article is correct, then the Chinese government is doing its best, for whatever reason, to erase all memories of the Tiananmen Square demonstrations from history.

    Any individual with even half a brain would then ask: “why would the Chinese government do this” and “who benefits?” etc. etc.

    Evidently, you are not one of those individuals. 🙂

    Zero regards, onebornfree

  178. Joe Wong says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    There are many religions in China including Christianity. If Falun Gong is about spiritual meditation it will exist peacefully in China like other religions. Falun Gong is a Western imperialists’ proxy, its aim is to plunge China into a Dalai Lama “cult” like a regressive, oppressive, barbaric and ignorant society. The West does not support Falun Gong and Dalai Lama for no reasons, the West wants to continue its imperialist past.

  179. Kratocrastes [179] thanks for the very helpful explanation of rights. You’re going to have to give it over and over to counteract the incessant government propaganda because this government fights rights tooth and nail.

    The positive rights reasoning is flawed, though. In government-issue terms, you describe them as a matter of bookkeeping, who remits what to whom, when they’re actually a matter of resource allocation. The state takes all kinds of money from me to pay shovel-leaners and bureaucrats. My economic rights (positive rights is a USG pejorative) let me say, I don’t want those F-35 flying turds. I don’t want those cops in tanks. Fuck that shit, I want stuff I need. You can’t just kick Arnold Schwarzenegger and demand a Lamborghini, so economic rights are specified as the means of life, things everyone agrees you need to live.

    Economic rights are the duty of the state to allocate all its resources to the means of life and not just blow shit up.

  180. annamaria says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    “China has overtaken the US to become the world’s largest producer of scientific research papers…”
    — Which is not surprising for a country that values knowledge and education, as compared to the US where young people steer toward financial sector and management.

  181. @Franklin Ryckaert

    Well, the report you gave the link to talks about “allegations”. I can allege that you are a Martian, but that won’t make it so. Besides, this link is cited a lot by Wikipedia, which is widely known to lie, and we all know for whose benefit.

    Not to mention that this “report” is dated 2006-07. Last time I checked, it is 2019 today.

    Also, the two authors (the data are from the link you gave):
    Matas – worked for the government of Canada in many positions, member of standing committee of Amnesty International (funded by Soros), Chair of the League on Human rights of B’nai Brith Canada and Chair of the Legal Committee of Canadian Jewish Congress (I hardly need to say more).
    Kilgour – worked for the government of Canada in many positions, including Justice Committee of the House of Commons and Joint House-Senate Committee on Statutory Instruments.

    Sapienti sat.

  182. @Vidi

    George W. Bush benefited. Democracy in action. Why am I not surprised?

  183. Iris says:
    @Lo

    This graph does not deny income inequality in China, it denies your argument.

    No, it does not.

    The graph shows that out of the total growth in Chinese income, almost 50% of the total (811/401) went to the 50% poorest people.

    In the US, where the total cumulated income growth was 59% of the starting value (in 1978), not only none of the growth went to the 50% poorest, but they even lost a further 1% of initial personal income to their richer counter parts

    In France, the middle classes (40% of the people) had 4% less than the overall increase in national income, to benefit the richest 1%, and in a context where the income raise very small in the first place. Not really glorious.

    There is an obvious difference between +50% and -1%; if you fail to see it, you may want to find another hobby than economics.

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Iris
  184. annamaria says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    The pro-federalists Ukrainians have become a target of the US-supported banderites after the US-led coup put a US-selected puppet in charge of Ukrainian government that immediately banished the Russian language (common for people living in Eastern Ukraine).

    Thousands civilians of all ages died in Eastern Ukraine thanks to ziocons’ design to use the hapless regime-changed Ukraine against Russian Federation. Ukraine, that used to be the wealthiest republic of the former USSR, has become lawless and the poorest among European state. Ukraine is infested with neo-Nazi (armed by the Jewish State — oh, irony!) and plundered by local Jewish oligarchs (see criminal Kolomoisky) and by the profiteering Americans (see Biden family).

    Nobody is talking about utopia when discussing China: The commenters are concerned with the hard data.

  185. annamaria says:
    @onebornfree

    “It was a link to an article about the Chinese governments CURRENT censorship policy ”

    –Have you been born yesterday that you do not know the degree of censorship in the US and EU? Would you dare to publish your real name while criticizing the Jewish Lobby or suggesting that, perhaps, some holo-biz statements reserve revision?
    How about banishment of some western journalists by the US/EU governments? Or about the strange deaths of some honest journalists? You do protest too much.

    https://www.mintpressnews.com/michael-hastings-targeted-cia-wikileaks-reveals-agencys-covert-carjacking-ability/225738/

    The untimely and violent death of award-winning journalist Michael Hastings sparked rumors for years that the CIA was somehow involved in the car crash that claimed his life. Now, Wikileaks’ “Vault 7” revelations have shown that the CIA has long had the ability to remotely hijack vehicles in order to conduct “undetectable assassinations.”

    https://off-guardian.org/2018/01/08/english-translation-of-udo-ulfkottes-bought-journalists-suppressed

    Ulfkotte died of a heart attack on January 13, 2017, at age 56.
    Udo Ulfkotte was a prominent European journalist, social scientist, and immigration reform activist. Upon writing Gekaufte Journalisten and becoming one of the most significant media industry and deep state whistleblowers in recent history, Ulfkotte complained of repeated home searches by German state police and expressed fear for his own life.

    Here is a food for thought for “onebornfree” as as a champion of revolutions: https://medium.com/@gmochannel/us-staged-a-coup-in-ukraine-brief-history-and-facts-898c6d0007d6

    There is geopolitics and a history of 70 years of meddling in Ukraine by the US. First, objectively speaking, it’s curious that a US Senator (John McCain) and the US Assistant Secretary of State (Victoria Nuland) repeatedly attended political protests in another country [Ukraine]. Oh, Nuland is also the wife of a prominent warmongering Neocon, Robert Kagan….

    NED or National Endowment of Democracy is a US taxpayer-funded group that specializes in … ahem … regime change. It’s chief, Carl Gershman, wrote in a Washington Post op-ed in 2013 (just before the protests) that “Ukraine is the biggest prize.”

    The consequence of the US meddling and support for neo-Nazi in Ukraine: https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-2014-coup-in-ukraine-led-to-10000-casualties-in-donbas/

    the UN Human Rights Officer of High Commissioner (OHCHR ) estimates a much larger number than 10,000 of the casualties: the total number of conflict-related casualties in Ukraine (from 14 April 2014 to 15 February 2019) at 40,000–43,000: 12,800–13,000 killed (at least 3,321 civilians and est. 9,500 combatants), and 27,500–30,000 injured (est. 7,000–9,000 civilians and est. 21,000-24,000 combatants) (See p. 6 of the report).

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  186. @Franklin Ryckaert

    More inspiring information from the Chinese Utopia :

    1) Chinese executions exposed by rare photos. Compare the 4000 executions in China with the 46 in the US of the same year :

    2) Dogs are regularly slaughtered for food in China. Often they are boiled alive because it is believed their suffering makes their flesh taste better :

    3) Members of the persecuted Falun Gong movement are slaughtered (without anesthesia!) and their organs harvested :

    1. There will be less executions as China becomes more prosperous.

    2. There are psychopaths in every society, including in the West. How many PETA videos are there on YouTube?

    3. While there is illegal organ trade in every country, especially in relatively poor countries like China and India, claiming Unit 731-style organ harvesting as Chinese government policy is total BS. Only a cult on the verge of irrelevancy would spill such desperate drivel.

  187. Lo says:
    @Iris

    I hope this is a joke lol. It says incomes of the bottom 50% went up by 401% in the last 40 years, while the top 10% went up by 1294%. You don’t divide 811 by 401 and conclude 50% of income went to the bottom 50%. I hope you are in a field where math is not needed at all.

    • Replies: @Iris
  188. Iris says:
    @Iris

    Correcting the poor wording and a typo in my precedent post, as this trend is about rates of increase, not about absolute values.

    The trend shows than the dynamics of income distribution evolved such as:
    – The 50% poorest Chinese saw their income grow by a relative 50% (401/811) of the overall increase in national income. The middle classes, 40% of the population, saw their income increase by an almost equal percentage to the total (779/811=96%).

    – The 50% poorest Americans, saw their income decrease by -1%, while the overall national income was increasing by 59% over the same period, to the benefit of the 1% richest. Middle classes comparative increase rate was 71% (42/59) of the total, compared to 96% in China.

    – The French middle classes relative rate of income increase was 90% of the total (35/39), less than the 96% in China, and out of an anaemic growth of only 39% over 37 years.

    Not only the absolute growth in personal income is staggering in China, but also has been, compared the two other countries, directed more towards the 90% less wealthy Chinese.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  189. Iris says:
    @Lo

    I am glad typographical errors make you LOL; simple minds are easy to please.

    See reply in 194.

    • Replies: @Lo
  190. onebornfree says: • Website
    @annamaria

    annamaria says: “Have you been born yesterday that you do not know the degree of censorship in the US and EU? Would you dare to publish your real name while criticizing the Jewish Lobby or suggesting that, perhaps, some holo-biz statements reserve revision?
    How about banishment of some western journalists by the US/EU governments? Or about the strange deaths of some honest journalists? You do protest too much.”

    Please read [ or re-read, as the case may be] my initial post in this thread- post no. 56, before getting your knickers all in twist, dearie. 🙂

    Regards, onebornfree

  191. Rich says:
    @FB

    I’m always amused when those, unable to refute someone’s argument with logic and/or facts, resorts to name-calling and childish comments. I’d just block you, but like I wrote, it’s amusing.

  192. micro-macro says: • Website
    @eah

    eah
    Godfree Roberts accounts are from facts but there’re always marginal differences or extremities. In general whatever Godfree has written about China is over 80% true as I can testify, having read, spoken to Chinese from the Maoist era to contemporaries and having travel and lived in China. The super rich and well-to-do move around like nobody’s business, Us one day and back to China the next.

  193. Escher says:

    see material well being as a primary right and public speech as secondary.They prioritize[⁠2] morality over law, community over individuals, the spiritual over the material, responsibility over rights, national well-being over democracy, order over freedom, this life over the next, harmony over conflict, civilization over impoverishment and family over social class.

    The above analogies are bizarre to say the least.
    The one about Chinese society prioritizing the spiritual above the material is laughable.
    To repeat a comment that many including I have made: if China is so great then why doesn’t the author move there?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  194. Ron Unz says:
    @Iris

    The trend shows than the dynamics of income distribution evolved such as:
    – The 50% poorest Chinese saw their income grow by a relative 50% (401/811) of the overall increase in national income. The middle classes, 40% of the population, saw their income increase by an almost equal percentage to the total (779/811=96%).

    Although changes in income distribution is not unimportant, I think the absolute rate of increasing real income among ordinary Chinese is a far more important factor.

    Put another way, the figures I’ve seen are that the median real income of urban Chinese workers has been doubling (or more) every decade for the last forty-odd years. Rural workers have also done very well, even if we exclude the large fraction who have moved to the cities.

    It seems to me if the real income of ordinary workers in the U.S., Britain, France, or Italy had been doubling every decade, there would be considerably less hostility towards the ruling financial and political elites…

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Iris
  195. FB says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Look I’m not going to go back and forth with an obvious troll…

    This website is about discussion…but you haven’t articulated one single actual sentence that contains anything that could remotely be described as an ‘argument’…or making a ‘case’…

    You simply copy and paste all manner of bullshit from discredited MSM sources…not only that but you put up little snippets completely out of context…

    For instance, your source about 3 million Americans that carry guns, omits the statement in that same source that 80 percent of those are LEGAL carry permits…

    Cops have no problem with legal carry…as seen in this video of two motorcyclists that are both carrying…

    The problem is with scumbag cops like this…who pulls his gun on a [white] guy hooking up his boat in his own driveway…in the middle of the day, on a quiet middle class residential cul de sac…where there is no cause to be ‘patrolling’ in the first place…

    This is unacceptable to EVERYBODY…and cannot be defended or rationalized…most of the people shot by police are unarmed, or fleeing, or both…

    In March 2018, cops in Sacramento, California, fired at least 20 bullets at 22-year-old Stephon Clark, killing him. He was unarmed and running away.

    In June 2018, a Pittsburgh police officer killed 17-year-old Antwon Rose, shooting him in the back. He was unarmed and fleeing.

    In November, a Hoover, Alabama, police officer killed 22-year-old Emantic Bradford Jr. He was shot three times, all from behind.

    Police killed 1,165 people in 2018.

    This is as unjustifiable as the ongoing massacre of UNARMED Palestinian civilians by Israeli snipers…

    Every person with a shred of decency recognizes this…Paul Craig Roberts who is a great man, has been vigorously condemning these cowardly and thuggish police murders and general brutality towards the public for many years…

    And yet here you are, a fucking dimwit loser who can only find employment as a fucking troll…polluting this discussion board with your fucking diarrhea…get lost…we don’t want you here…

    Here’s more proof that you’re a paid troll…

    That article you cited about Finns being ‘hunters’…here’s what it says about handguns…

    More than half the permits are for hunting, which is usually done with rifles and shotguns. The rest of the permits are for target practice, which can involve handguns.

    So ‘more than half’ are long guns…which means close to half are sidearms…

    And this…

    While Finns have a reputation for violence, firearms almost never enter the picture. Finland does have the highest murder rate in Western Europe, but those cases—commonly related to alcohol or domestic abuse—often involve knives rather than guns.

    In fact that same article says that the rate of gun ownership in Finland Could be much higher…

    …one study (PDF) estimated 41 to 69 privately owned firearms for every 100 civilians.)

    That higher figure is more than half that of the US…yet cops being killed…or people being killed by cops is PRACTICALLY NONEXISTENT…

    You’re the most obvious fucking troll on here…I’ve never seen you engage in discussion…only DECEPTION…with your out of context snippets that actually undermine or directly contradict the disinformation you are trying to peddle…

    They must not pay morons like you very much, considering how ineffective your trolling is…one would think these fucking troll farms would at least hire some reasonably intelligent and competent people that can convincingly argue an issue…you fail in every respect…you are basically an annoying fly buzzing around on this website…

    • Replies: @denk
    , @FKA Max
  196. FB says: • Website
    @Joe Wong

    So the Chinese see Communism as ‘freedom from’ want and need like starvation, poverty, homelessness and joblessness.

    You see democracy as ‘freedom to’ to bear arms, to have slaves, to have a superiority complex, proselytise your whiteman God, sorry I was thinking of your past, speak your truth, be a drug addict and dealer, to beggar your neighbour, to deny public health to your fellow citizens and all other acts of dishonesty.

    So stop your self illusions about being in the Land of the Free or being the Defender of Freedom, for you only make it so obviously that you are a prevaricating hypocrite.

    Great comment…you have drawn a superbly accurate contrast between the honest ethos of the Chinese…and the pretentious, empty and increasingly unsustainable bullshit of US propaganda…

    Well done…

  197. FB says: • Website
    @Rabbitnexus

    I’m out of here before I end up being nasty. I can see the expected reactions from plenty of yankee wankee doodles here. Totally missing the point, trying to recycle their own government’s propaganda against China whlst ignoring this answer to it, and generally showing why the USA is turning to a shithole.

    You nailed it…these morons are beyond hope… I especially liked the teary-eyed comment from one such wanker on this thread who decried the fact that Mr Unz was ‘ruining’ this ‘dissident website…’

    His definition of ‘dissident’ being to presumably spew hate against Jews and other minorities…while luxuriating in the soothing White Pabulum of morons like ‘Paul Kersey’ and other such misfits who spew their bile here…

  198. @The Alarmist

    “The US is a nation founded by European “immigrants” who almost thoroughly displaced the previous inhabitants”

    This is progressive, revisionist framing.

    The founders of the US, that is to say, the Founding Fathers, we all at least 2nd generation continentals except for Hamilton, who was born in the Caribbean. None of them immigrated anywhere. They were natives by strict definition, and the descendants of colonials and settlers, and even some indentured servants. Further, there was no nation in the new world to immigrate to. There was a vast wilderness, a fraction of which was occupied by primitive human populations who themselves had no concept or consideration for borders or sovereignty. Based on the modern progressive framing, the Amerindians were xenophobes who were too racist to understand that diversity was their strength, and also that newcomers were “Who They Were.”

    “Displacing the previous inhabitants” is a staple of all human history. It is occurring in the New World again. Hacks like Godfree Roberts illustrate their shameless dishonesty by selectively condemning/supporting the practice when it suits their degenerate worldview.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @The Alarmist
  199. denk says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    That the CIA or another US agency tries to use Falong Gong for its own political purposes says nothing about its original aim

    There’ millions of Qigong sects/clubs in China doing their stuff without a peep from the govn, why’s FLG banned in the first place ?

    ‘In May 2001, Asiaweek magazine, a subsidiary of Time magazine (well-known for its own anti-communist line and its fear-mongering in relation to China) carried out an investigation into Falungong. Whilst not going so far as to endorse the Chinese judgement that Falungong was a cult, Asiaweek nevertheless reported findings that support the characteristics of cults.

    Firstly, in relation to the absolute authority of Li Hongzhi, it said “Li instructs practitioners to go over his books again and again, without evaluation.” Moreover, “all the followers I interviewed recognise Li as the sole master. In fact many followers’ homes display a picture of him surrounded by a halo. They do not question his teaching that humanity is so rotten it is in danger of annihilation in our lifetime, and that only faithful adherents can be saved.”

    [MORE]

    Secondly, it gave evidence of the emotional manipulation of followers. It reported that adherents renounce medicines and doctors, believing that Li’s principles and exercises will heal them and prevent illness. Following a call by Li for “disciples to step forward in the face of life and death” five followers set themselves on fire in Tiananmen Square in January 2001. Other instances were reported later.

    Thirdly, it showed that followers were prone to fear from forces outside the cult: “For two hours we delved into a world of corrupted souls, prehistoric civilizations and looming alien possession…as we read each word aloud: ‘Anyone who uses a computer has already been coded by aliens. This is absolutely true. But our followers do not have this problem, because I’ve already cleared them’. (Said one follower) ‘Our master said the human body is perfect, and that’s why aliens want to conquer us’”.

    Fourthly, the report showed the ease with which followers could be controlled: “Li clearly asserts his authority via a loose but highly effective organization.” “…contrary to its claims, the group is highly organised.”

    The Chinese Government has amassed a huge amount of corroborating evidence which is available online, but I have drawn from the Asiaweek report because it cannot be dismissed as “Chinese propaganda”[2].

    The last two cult characteristics I’ll mention are taken directly from Li Hongzhi’s own speech in new York on March 27, 1997 (see http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/lectures/1997L.html )

    Li Hongzhi insists on his own omnipotence in these terms: “…although you can’t see me in person, as long as you practice cultivation, I’m actually right by your side. And as long as you practice cultivation, I can be responsible for you all the way to the end; what’s more, I’m looking after you every single moment. (Applause) Whoever doesn’t do it this way is doing the same as teaching an evil practice, doing bad things, and casually leaking heaven’s secrets.”

    In addition to controlling followers (“cultivators”) through his omnipotence, Li Hongzhi proclaims their uniqueness, their special quality that separates them from humans: “as a cultivator you can’t confuse yourself with an everyday person. To put it a bit seriously, you’re no longer human. As I just said, humans have various emotions and desires, and live for emotion (qing). During the course of cultivation you are gradually taking these things more lightly and gradually letting go of them until you completely discard them. Humans live for these things, but you don’t. Could you be the same as a human? You aren’t the same.”

    Some innocent, harmless qigong practioners !

    ehehheheh

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  200. Iris says:

    Although changes in income distribution is not unimportant, I think the absolute rate of increasing real income among ordinary Chinese is a far more important factor.

    Thanks, completely agree with your fair-minded statement.
    I was replying to a poster who isn’t fair-minded, so avoided discussing the absolute income increase because the easy objection would have been that 411% increase of nothing is still close to nothing.
    The point you make is key: the UN have recognised and praised China for lifting 800 millions Chinese people out of poverty within 3 decades, a developmental effort unparalleled in the history of humankind.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/china-watch/society/decreasing-chinas-poverty/

    It seems to me if the real income of ordinary workers in the U.S., Britain, France, or Italy had been doubling every decade, there would be considerably less hostility towards the ruling financial and political elites

    In Europe, all the “angry” political reactions, Brexit, Yellow Vests, voting for so-called “extreme” parties, are only the consequence of the degraded socio-economic conditions disenfranchised people find themselves in.

    The West has slowly lost its economic prominence, as demonstrated by its shrinking share of global GDP. Announcing this to the people would require both courage and the political will to re-distribute national wealth differently. A courage our politicians don’t have, so they continue buying time, stirring wars and kicking the debt can further down the road instead.

    The West badly needs social reforms and more equality. In absence of either, we are heading towards great unrest, or worse, war as an exit gambit.
    You might like this compelling book; “Has the West lot it? A provocation” by Kishore Mahbubani. Kind regards.
    https://www.ids.ac.uk/opinions/richard-jolly-reviews-kishore-mahbubanis-has-the-west-lost-it/

  201. Lo says:
    @Iris

    You made my day woman. After correcting your misunderstanding of the graph, what you end up saying is exactly what I said in the first place. Top 10% of China exceeds national average growth of incomes by 150%, these were the rich of China to begin with, meanwhile, bottom 50%’s incomes grew by only 50% relative to the national average in the last 40 years according to the graph. It means that they have gotten richer in absolute terms, but poorer relative to the other 50%. When the starting point is hunger level (in rural & working class China 40 years ago) of course things are better for those people. But none of this means that income inequality in China is better than the US, it is not. It is as bad as the US, and it doesn’t mean that China is great rather it is a shame for the US because it is on par with 3rd world countries.

    • Replies: @Iris
  202. FB says: • Website
    @Biff

    Thanks for that eye-opening list…I’m guessing the spook friendly retards that run Wikipedia are none too pleased with pages like this…they just can’t find any possible justification to suppress that…

    We see here that the rate of civilians killed by police in China is an incredible 300 times lower than the US…

    That really makes a HUGE statement about human rights right there…state violence against its own people is the most despicable possible act…a grand total of only four people killed by police in China in all of 2015…in a country four times as populous as the US…remarkable…

    The reality on the ground in the US is that anyone can be killed by police at any time…remember Justine Damond…the beautiful blonde Australian woman that was killed by police after calling 911…

    The murdering thug with a badge on the right…

    What about this 87 year old woman that was tased by cops in Georgia, for cutting dandelions…?

    Only a despicable troll could argue that cops were ‘afraid’ of this old woman…there are literally thousands of outrageous cases like this…here’s an elderly Indian man doing nothing more than walking on the sidewalk near his own home…why would the cops even stop him…?

    He was body slammed and had to be hospitalized…

    • Replies: @Biff
  203. denk says:
    @FB

    Agree.

    PCR says there’r lots of deranged people in the west who even now still believe in their leaders B.S.

  204. FB says: • Website
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Hey Mr Wikipedia…you’ve been crushed…pack up your wiki portfolio and go home…nobody is interested in your half baked bullshit…

  205. @MikeatMikedotMike

    “Displacing the previous inhabitants” is a staple of all human history.

    Displacing or assimilating (often forcibly) previous inhabitants is indeed a staple of human history. The history of North American colonies that later became the US is no more and no less glorious than the history of any human society or country. That’s exactly the point.

    When someone waxes lyrical about “exceptional” or “indispensable” country, it makes sense to remind that person (and his/her followers) that “the shining city on the hill” = “the land of the free and the home of the brave” was founded on genocide and slavery. This does not mean that some other country is a paragon of virtue. It just helps to remember that all countries were founded by dirty criminal activities, and nobody can claim to be an exception. Nobody means exactly that: NOBODY.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  206. Lo says:
    @Ron Unz

    Growth has its natural limits, it is just that stupid economists don’t seem to understand it. The more important thing is about the ownership of capital assets. Poverty is not necessarily a result of income levels in the US, rather it is due to the transfer of wealth generating assets. In many parts of the US, you can barely get by with $60 or $70k a year, sometimes even more salary won’t mean things will change much as rents and asset prices keep going up, along with the cost of financial services. It is actually not that difficult issue to solve in absolute terms (but difficult politically), put a progressive income tax, nullify the gains of rentier after a certain level and redistribute that income through investment in R&D, infrastructure and education. Take away the incentive to hoard property basically. However, the rich in the US are borderline traitors so they would fight with all they have to prevent any policy that would work against them.

  207. FB says: • Website
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    [You should consider that excess use of profanity may get your comments trashed.]

    What a useless fucking troll…you’re worse than the brainless wonder ‘FKA Max’…

    You think that because some ‘news’ bimbo on CBS tells the camera that China executes ‘x number’ of people, that this has anything to do with reality…?

    Why do you think only 20 percent of Americans trust the media…?

    And I notice you are greatly bothered by the FACTS presented here by many participants, regarding China’s amazing human rights achievements…that’s how we know you’re a troll…

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  208. eah says:
    @eah

    how many Jews does China have?

    Just happened to read this story: CBS’s Scott Pelley Blasts Former Boss David Rhodes for ‘Hostile Work Environment’ — and coincidentally (“LOL”), all three prominent CBS executives mentioned — Susan Zirinsky, David Rhodes, and Les Moonves — are all Jews — believe it or not, this is not at all untypical.

  209. denk says:

    Ron,
    Often I feel sick of seeing morons keep repeating the same old lies ad nauseam

    Some time you just gotta call a spade a spade !

  210. FvS says:
    @FB

    He told you where to look.

  211. Iris says:
    @Lo

    You are being deliberately disingenuous.

    It is very clear that the graph was not about an absolute measure of inequality within a given country.

    The graph was meant at measuring and demonstrating where the dynamics of inequality was heading in all 3 countries. This is obvious from the fact that the author chose to plot his income figures over a interval of time (1978-2015). Otherwise, he would have simply plotted the share of national income (y) against the year (x) for each of the considered group within each country.

    The plot demonstrate that income of the +50% poorest Chinese increased at a relative rate of 50% of the total income created over the considered period.
    In the US, the share of the poorest decreased by -1%, a relative rate of -1,7% of the total personal wealth created over the same period.

    The author is comparing the trend for the 50% poorest Chinese to that of the 50% poorest Americans, as this is the topic of this article, remember? He is not comparing the Chinese between them.

  212. @denk

    You still have not demonstrated that Falun Gong is “harmful”. Belief in the supernatural is the essence of religion. Whether a religious movement is a “cult” is a matter of definition. As long as members of a “cult” don’t engage in criminal behavior they should be tolerated. It is rather the Chinese government that behaves in a criminal way than Falong Gong. It wants to totally control the mind of the Chinese population. It cannot tolerate the idea that millions of people are innerly free from their control. There are more followers of Falun Gong than there are members of the communist party. That is the real reason of their persecution.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @denk
  213. FKA Max says:
    @FB

    U.S. population ~320 million / ~1000 deaths caused by police officers per year = 1 in 320,000

    U.S. police officer population ~1.1 million / ~57 police officers killed by gunfire per year = 1 in 19,300

    Source: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/nsleed.pdf

    http://www.unz.com/article/human-rights-in-china-and-america/#comment-3237268

    Suicide by cop
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop

    [MORE]

    Police refrain from shooting man who begs for suicide by cop

    Man shoots, kills police wearing body cam

    Shocking video shows moment cop is shot

    Little Rock Police release officer shooting video


    Body camera footage released in fatal police shooting outside Eugene middle school

    • Replies: @FB
  214. Iris says:
    @Ron Unz

    Apologies, intended reply in 206.

  215. FB says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    You just don’t know any better than to prove for all to see that you are a lowly troll…probably sitting in a state prison somewhere, where most troll farms recruit cheap labor…

  216. annamaria says:
    @Escher

    “if China is so great then why doesn’t the author move there?”
    — You mean, a deserved critique of your government and a comparative analysis of your country with another one should result in immediate relocation?

    Here is for you a repost of # 194:

    The trend shows than the dynamics of income distribution evolved such as:
    – The 50% poorest Chinese saw their income grow by a relative 50% (401/811) of the overall increase in national income. The middle classes, 40% of the population, saw their income increase by an almost equal percentage to the total (779/811=96%).

    – The 50% poorest Americans, saw their income decrease by -1%, while the overall national income was increasing by 59% over the same period, to the benefit of the 1% richest. Middle classes comparative increase rate was 71% (42/59) of the total, compared to 96% in China.

    – The French middle classes relative rate of income increase was 90% of the total (35/39), less than the 96% in China, and out of an anaemic growth of only 39% over 37 years.

    Not only the absolute growth in personal income is staggering in China, but also has been, compared the two other countries, directed more towards the 90% less wealthy Chinese.

    I hope that you understand that the results show different priorities.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    , @Escher
  217. FB says: • Website

    Overall, this is excellent information that Mr Roberts has presented here…

    The hard data shows that China is already a society where social and legal justice are truly an exemplar of fairness towards ordinary citizens…far ahead of the United States, which is not only a proven war criminal, but irrefutably a ruthless police state…

    The ridiculous canards about Falun Gong…mass executions…and persecution of minorities [namely the Muslims]…are proven here on this thread to be completely and definitively without any credibility…even The New York Times, the official mouthpiece of empire, has had to admit that the most credible global Muslim representatives have exploded the cheap western propaganda about Muslim oppression…

    Muslims have been an integral part of the Chinese fabric for centuries…the great admiral Zheng He was a Muslim…and commanded in the 14’th century the greatest fleet the world had seen until the modern age…

    Today China’s communist system of governance serves as a leading light for developing and developed nations alike…proving that concerted action for the benefit of the people can only come from a socialist approach…after all humans are social not solitary animals…while socialist China has been moving forward in giant strides in the welfare of its people…the rotten, capitalist west has sunk neck deep into the mire of unfettered and utterly unproductive greed and exploitation…and will soon be fully submerged…thankfully…having chosen a course contrary to all norms of decency and goodness…you reap what you sow…

    That is not to say that everything about China is positive…some here have mentioned animal rights…that is a very legitimate concern, especially the Chinese trade in endangered species body parts, which has hugely catastrophic impact on the welfare of our most iconic species, like the big cats which must be protected and preserved at all costs…

    It should be noted however that China is not alone here…African whites continue to perpetrate the most despicable outrages…including ‘canned’ lion hunting…and the demand for hunting lions and other big cats in the wild, or even on protected reserves, comes exclusively from the white race…this is very distressing that we have such criminals in our midst, who simply cannot overcome medieval urges to kill beautiful animals for no reason…

    This alone should give the repeaters of propaganda here pause…yet they never think about the beam in their own eye…

    India is a fantastic example in this regard…they have devoted huge resources to protecting tigers and lions…they will not kill even a proven maneater…it’s not allowed…instead they will capture the animal and put it in enclosed reserves where conflict with humans cannot occur…the rare Asian lions are treated even by villagers with truly amazing tolerance…even after losing livestock they bear no grudges, nor thoughts of retribution…compare that to white farmers in Africa, who shoot to kill on sight…

    The point is that some cultures have definitely superior approaches to common and pressing problems that humanity faces…those among us who refuse to recognize the wisdom of another’s approach are basically useless baggage to the human race…if you see your neighbor has figured out a better way why would you not want to learn from that…?

    Yet we see here the exact opposite from a great many participants…they revel in their ignorance…and luxuriate in their misguided chauvinism…it is depressing to see such low quality genetics on display…but not surprising…the human race is the only species where an individual’s survival is pretty much guaranteed…no matter how unfit they are to survive on their own merit…

  218. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    This was a great article!

    Thanks.

  219. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @eah

    That gentile whites have been so thouroughly dominated by Jews says a lot about the IQ and character of gentile whites.

    Blame Jews, blacks, and Hispanics all you want but the real downfall of America lies with gentile whites and no one else. If gentile whites weren’t so interested in securing themselves a sinecure in life you would have a normal functional country.

    • Replies: @eah
  220. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    What’s so wrong with that? Are you saying that China should welcome groups that try to splinter it? They are literally acting in their own self interest. I should hope our own country did things this way.

    And give me a break on Han Chinese crowding out the natives in Tibet. We are doing the same thing to Native Hawaiians in Hawaii.

  221. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @eah

    I think what Godfrey is saying is that the only way to secure a good future for your kid in China is to buy them a secure future in America because China is more of a meritocracy.

  222. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Are you seriously denying that America is trying to overthrow the elected government of Venezuela?

    Russians are there to protect the elected government there, not over this them. But you are too brainwashed to figure this part out.

  223. AaronB says:

    Wasn’t there an article recently showing that the majority of Chinese coders and engineers can’t do their jobs and are significantly worse than American ones….

    Quality Chinese education…

  224. FB says: • Website
    @AaronB

    Yes…I think that ‘article’ you mentioned was published last month in DORK QUARTERLY…

  225. @annamaria

    It was directed to poorer Chinese, by the richest Americans.

  226. @AaronB

    Ssssh! We don’t talk about that!

  227. Sally says:
    @Socratic Truth

    yes, I think you may have stumbled into the real problem.. > “an honest government that cares and works for the people. This type of government does not exist in the world today. ”

    government is satisfactory to those to whom it serves. All nations of the world serve the central bank, unless they wish a Qadaffi treatment.. .. The nations serve to partition, divide, and isolate the populations of the world. Each partition is a separate container with its own propaganda, culture, language, and etc. but the bankers that dictate how they shall be operated as the banking establishments are well distributed among the nations.

    Control central (let’s call them the bankers, slavers and corporate traders) feeds propaganda into the containers, extracts bits of money and reaps the benefits of the toils of each occupant. Nothing will change until the govern rule the governors.

    What is needed is for humanity to dictate to the governors.. instead of the governors dictating to the govern.!

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  228. @AnonFromTN

    “The history of North American colonies that later became the US is no more and no less glorious than the history of any human society or country. That’s exactly the point. ”

    No, it’s nothing more than your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it.

    “When someone waxes lyrical about “exceptional” or “indispensable” country, it makes sense to remind that person (and his/her followers) that “the shining city on the hill” = “the land of the free and the home of the brave” was founded on genocide and slavery. ”

    Nonsense.

    ” and nobody can claim to be an exception. Nobody means exactly that: NOBODY.”

    You’re wrong of course, for the most easily observable reasons. All you have to do, is observe where the people of the world choose to go. Period. No one is immigrating or migrating or more accurately: invading, China, or Africa, or the ME, or India, or Central America…but people from those places continue to try to come here to the US and or the the West in general. All the other bullshit about comparing human rights is pure smoke. All you have to do is sit back and watch which way the people are going.

    But if that’s not good enough, you and the rest of the US haters should ask yourself, if the US no better than somewhere else, or maybe even worse, then why are you still here?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Biff
  229. @MikeatMikedotMike

    I see that arguing with you is useless, so I write this not for the true believers, but for normal people who understand arguments.

    Many third-worlders flock to Europe, but no European leader proclaims his/her country exceptional or indispensable. The last one to do so was Hitler. We all know how that ended.

    I am here because basic science in the US is still better than in most other countries. The difference was huge when I came in 1991, and until about 2005 when you tell your Chinese post-doc that you will send him/her back to China, that was a serious threat. Not any more: many Chinese voluntarily go back to China. What’s more, I know a lot of perfectly white people, including Nobel prize winners, who created back-up labs in China: if the Congress continues its current policies, in 10 years the center of gravity of world science will shift there, while all the resources of the US would go into the insatiable maw of its MIC.

    I am certainly not a US hater. In fact, I am sad seeing how the elites run this country into the ground, with the support of morons who believe in its exceptionalism. With the people like you the US is doomed. I am not looking forward to Pax Sinica, I am not sure it would be better than Pax Americana, but gang-ho morons and elites supported by those morons are speeding up the demise of this country.

  230. FB says: • Website

    All you have to do, is observe where the people of the world choose to go. Period. No one is immigrating or migrating or more accurately: invading, China, or Africa, or the ME, or India, or Central America…but people from those places continue to try to come here to the US and or the the West in general.

    That’s not the case…

    You’ll notice that several Middle East countries have huge immigrant populations…in the Emirates for instance, 84 percent of the country’s population is immigrants…Saudi Arabia and Kuwait also have high immigrant populations…

    Russia is third in total immigrant population, mostly due to foreign workers coming from former Soviet republics…

    The situation of global migration is basically due to labor arbitrage…capitalism likes to import foreign workers because they will do the jobs that locals don’t want to do…John McCain was very big on immigration…quipping once that Americans wouldn’t do farm labor if you paid them fifty dollars an hour…coming from a Southern plantation family where ‘negroes’ did the actual work…I guess he figured that 50 bucks is outrageous compensation for valuable work…

    The same is true of just about every one in DC…why don’t you ask them…?

    Anyway…since you are so pleased with having 50 million immigrants in the US…then I assume you are against tightening up…against the wall etc…heck even Trump is pro legal immigration…has said so himself…

    Can’t rock the boat on that one, since the availability of cheap labor also drives down the cost of YOUR labor…even if you are a professional your employer is bringing in visa workers by the boatload…and where would we be if your employer had to pay you a fair wage…?

    Enjoy…

  231. Rich says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Are you seriously making the argument that the police shooting someone who is in the commission of a crime is an execution? Really? Should the police stand by and let violent criminals commit mayhem and murder? An example is the thug in Ferguson Mo, Michael Brown, who, after robbing a convenience store, attacked a police officer. Should the cop have remained perfectly still and let himself be beaten to death? Do you consider this an execution? Was the killing of Michael Johnson in Dallas, after he murdered five police officers, also an execution?

    I appreciate you being honest about this part of your propaganda piece, so that fair people can see where you’re coming from.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Godfree Roberts
  232. Escher says:
    @annamaria

    This is a straw man if I ever saw one.
    Calling out the government overreach in the U.K. and US does not justify what the Chinese government is doing through its mass surveillance and re-education camps.

  233. Escher says:
    @annamaria

    Not denying the massive poverty reduction achieved by China, but the resulting society is extremely materialistic, callous and cruel. There is no spiritual element in Chinese life any more.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  234. Escher says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    They want to get American citizenship for their kids as an escape route, should China start tearing itself apart like it does every so often.

  235. @Franklin Ryckaert

    The founder of the Yellow Hat, Gelugpa sect was born in China, as was the current Dalai Lama.

    Falun Gong has, at most ten million members. The CCP has ninety million registered, dues paying volunteer members.

    Falun Gong has nothing to do with the kind of real Spirituality found in Tibet’s Mahayana tradition nor in China’s Zen Patriarchs. It is popular nonsense, the like of which have occurred regularly in China’s history and have been responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths–just as we see in Europe’s history.

  236. FB says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    There’s not going to be any ‘Pax Sinica’…the Chinese are long past the illusions of imperial expansion…probably by a thousand years if not more…

    China could also import cheap labor from neighboring countries like Indonesia, Vietnam and others if they wanted to…but the socialist leadership is interested in the well-being of the people…not the well being of a parasite class…

    Also wondering what you mean by ‘science’ when you say US accounts for 70 percent…maybe you mean biology and other life ‘sciences’ [ie Theranos etc…LOL] …but the US is nowhere in aeronautics, astronautics, propulsion…which I know first hand…also would add materials and nuclear…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  237. @Franklin Ryckaert

    That’s our media line, but it’s simply not true.

    Recall, for example, the mirderous treatment we meted out to Puerto Rican independents recently. Go live in Hawaii if you want to see the murderous rage of its subjugated people.

    Tibet’s population, barely one million in 1952, reached three million in 2019 (ninety-five percent Tibetan and ethnic minorities).

    Tibet’s sixty languages, six ethnic groups and five religions are thriving. By 2000, more than 120,000 titles of ethnic minorities’ ancient books had been collected, 120,000 edited and 5,000 published. Zhonghua Dazang Jing, the one-hundred fifty volume encyclopedia of Tibetan studies, was published in two languages. The country’s great epic, Gesar, has been published in Tibetan, Mandarin and foreign languages. Tibetan mural art, thangka (scroll) painting and restoration are flourishing and traditional Tibetan opera is part of August’s Shoton Festival. The Tibetan script was the first ethnic-minority script in China with an international standard and it’s used in fourteen Tibetan-language periodicals and ten newspapers. Tibet has two publishing houses for books and two for audio-visual products, thirty-five printing houses, twenty-three newspapers and thirty-four periodicals. There are two-hundred sixty public art and cultural centers, ten professional art performance troupes, eighteen folk art performance troupes and seven hundred amateur performance teams. Each prefecture and city has newspapers in Tibetan and Han Chinese, Tibetan People’s Radio broadcasts forty programs in Tibetan and Khampa dialect daily and Tibet TV has been broadcasting around the clock since 2007.

    Most Tibetans live in rural areas and few speak Chinese but there is a substantial urban middle class in government, tourism, commerce, light manufacturing and transportation. As thousands of Internet-savvy youngsters graduate, they fill existing niches and create new ones. The fear of ‘invasion’ by millions of ethnic Han has receded after locals saw that most Han immigrants are poor and, being ineligible for state subsidies, most find it difficult to compete with locals and fail within three years. Survivors must contend with Tibetan entrepreneurs who, thanks to massive subsidies, are prospering: three million Tibetans share a state budget bigger than the Oregon State’s.

  238. @eah

    China has too many people. Some go abroad, as they have done for centuries, in search of easier pickings or to find opportunities that to not exist at home. Their numbers and impact seem large to small countries like ours, but China does not notice their absence.

  239. @Franklin Ryckaert

    Jung Chang’s Mao, the Unknown Story was, like Frank Dikotter’s Great Famine, a US-sponsored atrocity story. There’s zero evidence to support them.

    If you want to read a fact based account of Mao read

    http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-great-proletarian-cultural-revolution/

    • Agree: FB
  240. @Lo

    The chart does not account for wealth. China’s bottom 25% all own their own homes free and clear.

    And because GINI is only calculated years after all the data is in, it doesn’t catch the fact that Xi started grading promotions on GINI in 2013 and has pledged to match Finland’s GINI by 2035.

  241. FB says: • Website
    @Rich

    Take it easy macaroni dandy…this discussion is way over your pretty little head…so best not waste our time like an annoying little gnat…

    Criminals kill a few cops…in fact they are killing more all the time…live by the sword die by the sword…

    The facts of the US Gestapo police state are well established…and already discussed on this thread at some length…

    Out of 1,000 civilians extrajudicially executed each year very few are in actual self defense…those are the facts…now here you are asking the author a stupid question about the particulars of a couple of individual cases…why don’t you ask the families of some of the other 999 victims…?

    • Replies: @Rich
  242. @Godfree Roberts

    In reality, it’s a Disneyfied caricature of Chinese culture to indoctrinate audiences about Falun Gong. Falun Gong runs a propaganda campaign that’s far more sophisticated than the Communist Party of China.

    Really? Far more sophisticated than the CCP’s propaganda apparatus which involves Google’s Orwellian Dragonfly browser, or social credit scores and the limitations that they impose?

    I’ll concede I don’t know anything about Falun Gong, but to listen to you sit there and try to un-ironically portray the Chinese government as purveyors of some kind of Utopian model when it’s clearly anything but is little more than a declaration of extremely limited mental faculties on your part.

    Stuff like this:

    China still has seriously corrupt business and political classes? Nonsense. Corruption has always been non-existent at the policy level and now it is disappearing locally.

    That is some legitimately batshit crazy stuff to say right there. You might as well say that China is the one place where absolute power does not corrupt absolutely.

    Anyone who has interacted with Chinese people on the net knows this. Hell, in video games when the Chinese are mobbing your online server, all you need to do is start spamming about the Tienanmen Square incident and they all start dropping out of the server on the spot. They legitimately can’t engage, or they are punished by your supposedly corruption-free beacon of the free world, the CCP. To say nothing of the one’s who are undoubtedly brainwashed in a degree even more severe than your dime a dozen MSM devouring American vegetable of a human.

    Next you’ll be telling us there’s no sweatshops and everyone earns a healthy living wage making all that Chinese crap Americans consume. And no one’s jumping off roof tops to their deaths in protest of the working conditions and the government isn’t simply responding my making all the other workers sign waivers that deny their families any compensation if they follow suit.

    You’re preaching lunacy. And I don’t know if it’s because you are a complete fool, or you actually think we are.

    What I do know, is that your entire argument falls into two categories, both of which are entirely incapable of being substantiated in any way.

    1) Some Muslim council went to China and was granted full access to investigate and scrutinize whatever they wanted to, unlike literally every person in China beneath the highest echelons of the CCP. And if you go to the UN, you have multiple records, as recent as the Bloody Harvest report in summer of 2016 (if I recall correctly), of the Chinese government and military engaging in the organ harvesting of political dissidents. See? We can cite 3rd party references to reinforce our views as well!

    2) “You haven’t been to China, therefore you don’t know anything”. If I did go to China, you can bet I already know that I wouldn’t be greeted by transparent government officials ready to lay my every concern and suspicion to rest regarding the things I have heard about them.

    Besides, I haven’t been to Africa either, and I still know Wakanda isn’t real. Or are you about to rock my world with some unbelievable claims to the contrary regarding absolute state of the dark continent? Perhaps served cold, on a vibranium platter?

    What this all boils down to is YOU don’t have any evidence for your claims either. You’re a propagandist selling an image that is as wholly unrealistic as those in America still spinning the yarn about us being a beacon of freedom and patriotically exporting democracy to all the most nightmarish shit holes on this globe.

    Sure, you’ve got some numbers, and they’re all as neatly graphed out to support your argument as your average American government funded climate scientist’s global warming charts would be. But even IF all your sources were honest and accurate, and lets face it, they’re most assuredly not, your still comparing rotten apples and rotten oranges here. America isn’t China. China isn’t America. And just because one is oozing corruption in a way that you are intent on highlighting, it does not mean the other’s shit doesn’t stink in the very same way if not a myriad of others as well.

    China is no more worthy of applause or serving as a model for the rest of the world to follow than America has become. China simply is, in the open, what those in control of America seek to steer the West towards from the shadows. Both are breeding a population of herd mentality-ruled cattle to serve under them. It’s simply the case that the obstacles are different for the West than they are for the East. The West is armed, the West was brought up in an environment that valued individual rights. The Chinese are not a culture that ever really championed the kinds of values that Westerners went so far as to enshrine in their Bill of Rights. Regardless of how effectively they’ve actually protected and upheld said values. They remain values that Westerners BELIEVE they are upholding, or as the likes of the US/Chinese governments and elites would see them ‘obstacles’ to be overcome. As such demographic replacement wasn’t necessary to accomplish authoritarian control in China. They didn’t need to change the demographic landscape in order to dismantle the existing social/cultural/political landscape. And many of those numbers and charts of yours are simply citing the foreseeable consequence of the different approach that was taken in the West: dumping 3rd world savages in America by the untold millions for decades on end while further polarizing and radicalizing them against the native demographic after they arrive.

    But at the end of the day, all we are witnessing is two vastly different approaches, each custom tailored to the demographic they are targeting, which ultimately lead to the same destination of complete Orwellian control over ignorant and easily subjugated masses.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Godfree Roberts
    , @peterAUS
  243. @Franklin Ryckaert

    The Communist Party with its barren materialism and rote sloganism? Hardly!

    The slogans, deliberately mistranslated to strip out any hint of spirituality, must be read in the context of China’s overall goal–a goal that everyone is on board with.

    By 2021, its first goal attained, China will shift its priorities away from economic development to establishing a harmonious society free of today’s huge gaps between rich and poor and replacing money worship with traditional morality while weeding out political corruption in favor of social justice and fairness. So far so good.

    The next goal is the creation of a datong society: “Now to have states, families, and selves is to allow each individual to maintain a sphere of selfishness. This utterly violates the Universal Principle and impedes progress..Therefore, not only should states be abolished–so that there would be no more struggle between the strong and the weak–but families should also be done away with, too, to allow equality of love and affection among men. Finally, selfishness itself should be banished, so that goods and services would not be used for private ends..The only true way is sharing the world in common by all, tienxia weigong..To share in common is to treat each and every one alike. There should be no distinction between high and low, no discrepancy between rich and poor, no segregation of human races, no inequality between sexes..all should be educated and supported with the common property, none should depend on private possession..This is the way of the Great Community.” Mao was so enamored of this dàtóng vision that he committed to memory the entire Dàtóng Shu[1].

    That’s a damn sight more spiritual than any nation vision I’ve ever encountered.

    [1] Kang Youwei was a Neo-Confucian scholar, political thinker and reformer of the late Qing dynasty whom Mao so admired that he committed Kang’s books to memory and quoted them regularly.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  244. @Vidi

    The current government is by any measure the leading Confucian dynasty in Chinese history and it’s just getting started.

  245. @peterAUS

    Can you name on they’ve failed to solve? One will suffice.

  246. @Whitewolf

    Another Western media myth!

    The myth of the ‘missing girls’ which, like ‘ghost towns,’ captured our imaginations but left American political scientist John Kennedy[1] dissatisfied, “Thirty-million girls are missing from the population–the population of California–and they think they’re just gone?” He compared the 2010 census figures with girls’ enrollment and graduation in 2016:

    Most people are using a demographic explanation to say that abortion or infanticide are the reasons girls don’t show up in the census and that they don’t exist, but we find there’s a political explanation. The point of contention is the interaction between the central state’s capacity to influence local officials and local officials’ willingness to implement central policies–especially unpopular policies. We find that millions of unreported female births ‘appear’ in older cohorts [school enrollment years], and this also reflects a cultural shift regarding the value of girls in China. The ‘preference for sons’ cultural argument suggests that parents see sons as necessary for elderly care and contributions to family income while daughters are viewed as a burden. However, scholars suggest that over the last few decades, and especially since the introduction of economic reforms, daughters have contributed more to their natal families (i.e., increased their value). Still, the 1990, 2000 and 2010 censuses show that unreported male births are overwhelmingly registered between the ages of one and ten years old but that the vast majority of children registered after the age of ten are females. This implies an administrative bias towards sons whereby they are registered earlier than daughters, rather than a strict son preference (i.e., fewer daughters).

    Kennedy interviewed a farmer who introduced his elder daughter and son by name but referred to his middle daughter as ‘the non-existent one’. “He told us that his first daughter was registered but that when his second child, another daughter, was born they did not register her and instead waited to have another child. The third child was a boy and they registered him as the second child.” To keep the peace village officials, often blood relatives, turned a blind eye to children born outside Family Planning limits and left them unreported. Though the government relaxed the rural one-child policy in the 1980s, Kennedy found that village-level enforcement had already bypassed it and thirty-million girls were where they should be, in school.

    Today, more girls than boys graduate from university and, when we normalized the data for job position and seniority, gender and wage gaps almost disappear. Modern women keep their surnames after marriage, take International Women’s Day off, enjoy up to twelve month maternity leave, a lower retirement age.


    [1] Delayed Registration and Identifying the ”Missing Girls” in China. The China Quarterly, Volume 228. December 2016, pp. 1018-1038

  247. @onebornfree

    Remember “Teach the controversy”?

    The campaign, conducted by the Discovery Institute, to promote the pseudoscientific principle of intelligent design, a variant of traditional …

    China is not going to teach the controversy because there is none.

  248. Biff says:
    @FB

    Let’s not stop with violence and abuse directed at only humans – their pets are getting whacked at even a higher rate. Every 90 minutes a cop shoots and kills someone’s pet dog. They even came up with the demented term “Puppycide”.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/police-kill-nearly-25-dogs-each-day/

    https://www.dogingtonpost.com/police-shoot-dogs/

  249. @FB

    Over 70 percent of Americans see media as ‘fake news,’ a Monmouth University poll shows

    An alarmingly low number of Americans say they trust the media. Over the last two decades, research shows the public has grown increasingly skeptical of the news industry. Designed for today’s saturated media environment, this new study from The Media Insight Project, a collaboration of the American Press Institute and the Associated Press‑NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, helps establish that trust is an important differentiator for building an audience.By late 2018, says the American Press Institute, ”Just six percent of Americans say they have a lot of confidence in the media, putting the news industry about equal to Congress and well below the public’s view of other institutions.” As Carl Sagan noted sadly, ”The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.” https://www.americanpressinstitute.org/publications/reports/survey-research/trust-news/

  250. FB says: • Website
    @Non Sum Qualis Eram

    Aww…butt-hurt little tears are the sweetest…

    So you haven’t been to China…you haven’t been to Africa…maybe try ‘traveling’ to that very back aisle in Walmart where you’ve never gone before…?

    That should be quite the adventure…you might even find ‘Wakanda’…LOL

    • Replies: @Anon
  251. @Franklin Ryckaert

    Like Europe’s, China’s religious wars were a plague and Chinese emperors frequently leveled monasteries–including the famous Shaolin temple–if they became politicized or caused civil unrest. In the 1860s, a Christian uprising, the Taiping Rebellion, killed 30 million people and weakened the country to the point of collapse. Today, despite heroic efforts by proselytizers and missionaries, Chinese policy still regulates public religious displays without persecuting private practice.

    Modern Chinese are unanimous in agreeing that the government’s first responsibility is maintaining social harmony and that everyone, regardless of religious persuasion, must accept certain universal ethical principles and practices. When evidence-based secular principles and religious beliefs disagree, secular principles win; if religions start taking orders from foreign governments or followers resist just laws based on secular principles, then the government should restrict or ban them–as it did with Falun Gong. Otherwise, the country’s three thousand religious organizations and six recognized religions–Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Protestantism, Ancient Chinese Religion and Catholicism–and seventy-four seminaries, 85,000 religious sites, 300,000 full time clergy and one hundred million followers are free to worship as they please.

  252. @AaronB

    No, there was no such article. You imagined it. China leads the world in computer science.

    China ranked first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering. (JSTA)

    China will overtake the US in the most-cited 50% of AI research papers this year, the top 10% of research papers next year, and the top 1% by 2025. ( Allen Institute for Artificial Intelligence)

    • LOL: AaronB
  253. @Sally

    It’s called the dictatorship of the proletariat. Does that sound familiar?

  254. Erebus says:
    @AaronB

    Wasn’t there an article recently showing that the majority of Chinese coders and engineers can’t do their jobs and are significantly worse than American ones….

    Whatever it was, it wasn’t this one….

    • Agree: Iris
    • Replies: @AaronB
  255. @Rich

    In no other country on earth–including those with higher gun ownership–do police execute people with such staggering frequency and immunity. In most cases, police from other countries avoid using firearms but not in the US.

    Couple this to the even larger number of ‘post-arrest deaths in custody’ and the 1,000 civilians we’ve murdered every day since 1950 and even you must admit that there’s a pattern there.

    • Replies: @Rich
  256. @Escher

    China has the same CCTV density per capita as the US and far lower density than the UK.

    And its reeducation camps for terrorists is pretty humane compared to Guantanamo.

    • Replies: @Escher
  257. @Escher

    Only when the granary is full can virtue be intelligently discussed.

    The granary will be full in 2021 and evenly distributed in 2035. The spiritual goal–which Mao set in 1957–will probably be scheduled for 2121.

    • Replies: @Escher
  258. @Non Sum Qualis Eram

    How about a little data to back up your hot air?

  259. DB Cooper says:
    @Escher

    Re-education camps are fine. I have been to one myself. Involuntarily too I might add.

  260. Biff says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    No one is immigrating or migrating or more accurately: invading, China, or Africa, or the ME, or India, or Central America…

    Are you calling me a “No one”? I migrated from the U.S. to East Asia, or “invaded” as you say. And when I look around I’m surrounded by many others who have done the same.

    And speaking of Central America, I know several(some very wealthy) who have homesteaded it to Costa Rica, and/or Panama. I also met an expat in Mexico who had a sign above his toilet “Flush twice – it’s a long way to Washington”.

    I wouldn’t call it a caravan, but there is a movement of sorts.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  261. AaronB says:
    @Erebus

    No, I guess it’s this one.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inverse.com/amp/article/54133-computer-science-grads-competitiveness-by-country

    The results of the new study show that American computer science graduates are still vastly outperforming peers in China, Russia, and India, the three countries who, along with the United States, produce more than half of the computer science graduates worldwide.

    But despite the institutionalized emphasis on computer science graduates, the study found that US graduates out-performed peers from China, Russia, and India — and not just slightly out-performed.

    “‘Slightly’ is an understatement,” said

    American students in average CS programs (as in, non-elite) performed as well as the elite Russian, Indian, and Chinese students. When comparing top students from each country, US students surged ahead of the pack. The findings were dramatic enough to even prove surprising to the study’s researchers, including Tara Beteille, who served as the team leader for the World Bank’s Technical Education Quality Improvement Project initiative with the Indian government

    • Replies: @AaronB
  262. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    So apparently average American CS graduates are outperforming elite Chinese graduates.

    This is incredibly embarrassing for China, shocking really.

    One of the more amusing emerging narratives I have noticed recently is that Chinese schools are so great that only the rejects come American schools…China pushers telling us this more and more lately..

    While I admire the rhetorical ingenuity and boldness in crafting this narrative…well, actually I think I agree with it after all!

    The cream of the crop Chinese who stay at home can’t even compete with average Americans, and the less talented Chinese who come to American schools just pay money to get accepted.

    I think I like this narrative after all lol 🙂

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Erebus
    , @FB
    , @Anonymous
  263. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    Before Godfrey starts telling me these American CS students are all really Chinese anyways, well, that can’t be the case, because Godfrey tells me that the best Chinese students stay at home.

    So the reject Chinese who come to America’s inferior schools are outperforming the elite that stays in China?

    Clearly, that can’t be the case. So obviously these American CS students are not Chinese, and the Chinese in American schools are doing even worse…

    Right, Godfree?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  264. onebornfree says: • Website

    This article, and the authors various responses [ sometimes amazingly rapid – check the post times] , has to be just about the most disgusting display of pro-communist propaganda that I’ve read in a long time. The author [ or authors, plural] is just another state worshiping brainwashed zombie preaching total “I love the Chinese government because” horseshit.

    The fact that such tripe, a full on, no holds barred promotion of communism, historically the most socially destructive economic system ever devised, by a paid operative [ plus supporting minions] , gets aired on this site is equally disgusting. Ron Unz needs to get his head out of his ass, pronto.

    Anybody who believes any part of this idealistic, lie based tripe, [ backed up with pretty, colorful charts, no less, to “prove” the authors claims 🙂 ] needs to get their head examined.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

    Zero regards, onebornfree

    • LOL: FB
  265. Whitewolf says:
    @annamaria

    You don’t need the NSA to tell you which members of Congress work for Israel. They all do. The only time you’ll get almost unanimous support for any bill is when it’s an pro-Israel bill. Anything to benefit Americans is bogged down in partisan debate whether it be healthcare, taxes or a border wall. Anything to do with Israel is a bipartisan effort to ensure that Israeli interests are served. You also had that visit by Bibi where the unanimous enthusiastic applause by all the puppets in Congress looked very similar to the days of Stalin where people didn’t want to be the first to stop applauding.

  266. peterAUS says:
    @Non Sum Qualis Eram

    ..un-ironically portray the Chinese government as purveyors of some kind of Utopian model when it’s clearly anything but is little more than a declaration of extremely limited mental faculties on your part.

    You know, maybe he is being ironic here.

    Anyone who has interacted with Chinese people on the net knows this.

    Or dealt with them in any sort of business environment. Just this morning I had a chat with a friend who works for a local business owned by Chinese. Oh my…..

    .. Next you’ll be telling us there’s no sweatshops…

    Hehe….our government busts every now and then a sweatshop owned and populated by Chinese HERE. Or renting facility.

    You’re preaching lunacy. And I don’t know if it’s because you are a complete fool, or you actually think we are.

    Yep. The later in particular. Can’t blame him, actually.

    You’re a propagandist selling an image…

    ….just because one is oozing corruption in a way that you are intent on highlighting, it does not mean the other’s shit doesn’t stink in the very same way if not a myriad of others as well.

    China is no more worthy of applause or serving as a model for the rest of the world to follow than America has become. China simply is, in the open, what those in control of America seek to steer the West towards from the shadows. Both are breeding a population of herd mentality-ruled cattle to serve under them. It’s simply the case that the obstacles are different for the West than they are for the East….

    ….all we are witnessing is two vastly different approaches, each custom tailored to the demographic they are targeting, which ultimately lead to the same destination of complete Orwellian control over ignorant and easily subjugated masses.

    Yep…

  267. Erebus says:
    @AaronB

    The results of the 2018 IOI coding olympiad in Japan:
    http://stats.ioinformatics.org/results/2018. Note the names of the 2 Americans that wound up in the top ten.

    The results of the international ICPC competition from 2004 onwards are available here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Collegiate_Programming_Contest#2018_World_Finals

    Perhaps the above indicate why the results of the Stanford study were so surprised at their results.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @FB
  268. FB says: • Website
    @AaronB

    So apparently average American CS graduates are outperforming elite Chinese graduates.

    This is incredibly embarrassing for China, shocking really.

    Ever heard of The International Collegiate Programming Contest…?

    In 2018, ICPC participation included 52,709 students from 3,233 universities in 110 countries.[4]

    Medal receiving countries in the 2018 final

    1. Moscow State University

    2. Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology

    3. Peking University

    4. The University of Tokyo

    5. Seoul National University

    6. University of New South Wales

    7. Tsinghua University

    8. Shanghai Jiao Tong University

    9. St Petersburg ITMO University

    10. University of Central Florida

    11. Massachusetts Institute of Technology

    Check the rest of the results going back to 2004…LOL

    So now after getting pasted for nearly 20 years in an actual competition with actual rules…and still administered by a US university [Baylor]…we have one mickey mouse study carried out by some butt-hurt Americans [with support of The World Bank LOL]…

    If we scratch the surface of this so called ‘study’, we find in the ‘data and methods’ of the actual paper that the Americans doing the so called study first hand picked students in each country [based on their own mysterious formulations]…and administered a US TEST…

    Sampled seniors in the four countries all took a 2-h, computer-based, standardized CS examination from the “Major Field Test” suite of assessments designed by Educational Testing Service (ETS).

    Computer science skills across China, India, Russia, and the United States

    The US based ETS test was TRANSLATED by the US team doing the study…

    Then they did some data ‘massaging’…

    To examine relative skill levels between countries and institutions in terms of effect sizes, we converted each student’s examination score into a z-score by subtracting the mean and dividing by the SD of the four-country sample.

    Ie making the data fit the pre-ordwined result…LOL

    Let me know when DORK QUARTERLY runs another ‘article…

  269. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Escher

    Ahhh so your saying that the US does not conduct mass surveillance on the while world?

    And the re-education camps are not good. But I fail to see how they are worse than the torture camps the US has.

    • Replies: @Escher
  270. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    That is some weak stuff Aaron. This was a test made from The Education Testing Service that was backed by Berkley. Of course a US college and a US non profit that is backed by the education industry will want to push the US Schools are the best in the world narrative. They have an incentive to do so.

    You didn’t even read the article did you? It said that the US students outperformed Chinese, Indian, and Russian students. You just read this as her durr the China man can’t code lol.

    As someone that is involved in tech, I wouldn’t say that the Chinese are the best. But I place Russians as easily being better than American coders. And I place Chinese coders as at least being competent.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @FB
  271. @AaronB

    Right. China is the world leader in computer science, as I referenced above.

    • LOL: eah
  272. @MikeatMikedotMike

    Displacing the previous inhabitants” is a staple of all human history. It is occurring in the New World again.

    Knowing how we accomplished what we did, you’d think we’d have the good sense to prevent it happening again, but history apparently starts all over with each successive generation.

    • Agree: MikeatMikedotMike
  273. milos says:

    A very accurate article.
    China is an advanced and caring society.
    In Computer Technologies they excel due to their symbolic language training/representation, object classification comes naturally.
    Information management is an order above western deployment and utility.
    Transportation and communications costs are 5-10 times less expensive and 5-10 times faster, with 5G will be 100-200 times faster for the same price like 3G to 4G.

  274. denk says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    FLG…

    A MKultra body and mind snatcher style cultist,

    sponsored by Washington, fully backed by Freedom House uber zionist Mark palmer etc.,

    Trained by CIA./nsa to foment social unrest,
    been trying to provoke TAM2 caper.,

    Run Massive psyop campaign to smear China…

    ‘Harmless’

    If they tried it in unitedsnake, they wont last five min before the swat goons send them to claim their 72 virgins at heaven;s gate,

  275. eah says:
    @Anonymous

    so thouroughly dominated by Jews

    I wouldn’t put it that way (but I would spell thoroughly correctly if I did), and it says nothing about the IQ of Whites.

    You need to distinguish between noting factors and assigning blame — nowhere in any comment here do I assign blame (for what?) — in my initial comment, I made one main point: the INTERNAL SECURITY graphic/comparison includes US data that is grossly affected by Blacks (vastly) and Hispanics (significantly); both of these groups are more criminal than Whites — this is a problem that China simply does not have (the same is true when comparing violent crime rates of the US with Europe) — even in the US Asians are less criminal than Whites.

    Since during most of the last century Whites were a super majority in the US (85-90%), it is not unfair to say they are responsible for what has happened in/to the country — but in the ‘evil’/’stupid’ two party system, there has never been much of a choice.

  276. @FB

    What percentage of those immigrants you cite are from the US/West? That’s the point I’m making. “They” are coming here; we are not going there.

    And you make great points about the effects of immigration, but they are obscured by your perpetual need to straw man the people you feel are your opponents. I would almost guarantee that I take a much harder line on immigration to the US than you or most anyone else here.

    • Replies: @FB
  277. @FB

    And PS – I’ve been to Dubai, three times. I’d rather live there than India or Ethiopia.

  278. @AnonFromTN

    “I see that arguing with you is useless, so I write this not for the true believers, but for normal people who understand arguments.”

    LOL yeah ok – you’re so sure of yourself you feel the need to enlist the other contributors to your side. Insecurity suits you.

    And guess what: the definition of normal isn’t “people agree with me.”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  279. Joe Wong says:

    Chinese can immigrate to the US freely, but the Americans cannot immegrate to China freely, this fact alone make your foundation saying China is not more free than the United States a fallacy.

  280. AaronB says:
    @Erebus

    Maybe, but they really shouldn’t have been so surprised. It’s the same pattern with mathematics. Failure to produce top flight mathematicians despite being over a billion people, while doing well at the prestigious Olympiads.

    Tests and prestige activities are no substitute for real accomplishment.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  281. AaronB says:
    @Anonymous

    And I place Chinese coders as at least being competent.

    I’m sure the Chinese programmers are OK, if not exceptional. I do remember reading not so far back though that the majority of Chinese-educated engineers cannot do their job. Ill try and find that for you also.

    Anyways, not trying to rag on the poor Chinese, just correcting some of the silly over the top propaganda here.

    Remember, chinese engineers still can’t make decent jet engines.

    The Chinese are as they have always been – a middle rank people who always disappoint those who expect genius or exceptional performance from them, but capable of a reasonable accomplishment.

    I call it “high mediocrity”

    This is how they have been historically, and how they will continue to be, I suspect.

  282. Joe Wong says:
    @Escher

    In the West, when one is forced unemployed, the government mandated that the victims must go through government sponsored “career re-orirntation” training programs before they get their own paid unemployment insurance. Mind you, those “career re-orientaion” training programs are funded by reducing employees’ unemployment insurance payments, and the career re-orirntation” training programs are nothing but bureaucratic Kabuki.

    How would you compare this mass surveillance and “career re-orirntation” re-education camps in the West to the re-education camps in China? The West’s “career re-orirntation” training programs is democratic, and benevolence of higher civilization?

    • Replies: @Escher
  283. FB says: • Website
    @Erebus

    Perhaps the above indicate why the results of the Stanford study were so surprised at their results.

    LOL…I think the International Collegiate Programming Contest is a pretty good yardstick…considering its breadth of participating universities and sheer number of contestants…the problems are tough…only one team has ever solved all questions…it’s five hours…and it’s a level playing field…

    More important…the competition consists of actual programming…while the two hour ETS test used in that mickey mouse Stanford ‘study’ uses multiple choice questions

    The ETS® Major Field Test for Computer Science consists of 66 multiple-choice questions, some of which are grouped in sets and based on materials such as diagrams, graphs and program fragments.

    That’s ridiculous…there’s a place for written knowledge tests…but if you want to be a pilot for instance you also have to pass a checkride in an actual airplane or full flight simulator…I would think the same kind of yardstick applies to a hands on skill like programming…

    Here are the top institutions in the ICPC…

    Notice the dates on the US wins…going back to the 1980s and ’90s…Stanford last won in 1991…from 2000 we see Russia dominating…with China popping up a few times…

    I think Mr Roberts’ claim of Chinese domination in computer science is a little off the mark…clearly technical education in China is very good and getting better, but my experience in the aerospace field is that Russia has such a deep and broad institutional tradition of excellence…they are simply unmatched…

    It takes time to build institutional excellence…the Chinese are leveraging their ties with Russia in this respect…

    The Lomonosov Moscow State University (MSU) and the Beijing Institute of Technology (BIT) have signed a founding agreement on the establishment of a joint Sino-Russian university in the Shenzhen free economic zone.

  284. eah says:
    @Xytil

    gutter oil

    Never heard of that before — there’s even a Wikipedia page about it — also a Youtube video.

    Reminds of the earlier (2008) baby formula scandal: China’s Baby Formula Scandal — they even do powdered milk knock-offs in China: Suspects in China’s ‘biggest baby milk scandal in decade’ go on trial

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  285. FB says: • Website
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    If you worried less about ‘straw’ [a fine bedding material for horses]…you would realize that your ‘point’ is nonsensical…

    US and western labor doesn’t flow to low income countries…just like water doesn’t flow uphill…the point like I said is labor arbitrage…which is harmful to high income countries…China is now also a high income country, relative to its neighbors, and could probably import 100 million migrant workers…if the goal was to beggar it’s own people…

    PS…my last ‘straw man’ was an enjoyable project…an old shirt, hat and trousers…stuffed nicely and mounted on a simple wood crucifix…and held upright by four ‘guy wire’ ropes staked to the ground…great for the veggie garden…although the clever raccoons were certainly not fooled…

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  286. FB says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    That is some weak stuff Aaron.

    LOL…don’t worry too much about our little dork ‘Aaron’…he’s a little slow on the uptake…a while back he was arguing with professional pilots on James Thompson’s 737 MAX thread…and pushing the idiotic notion that both crashes were caused by pilot error…

    Pretty sure he’s on mushrooms…

  287. @Godfree Roberts

    The next goal is the creation of a datong society: “Now to have states, families, and selves is to allow each individual to maintain a sphere of selfishness. This utterly violates the Universal Principle and impedes progress..Therefore, not only should states be abolished–so that there would be no more struggle between the strong and the weak–but families should also be done away with, too, to allow equality of love and affection among men. Finally, selfishness itself should be banished, so that goods and services would not be used for private ends..The only true way is sharing the world in common by all, tienxia weigong..

    How on Earth can you believe in such banal, boilerplate infantile drivel? You swallow propaganda like a Child enamoured of Santa Claus. Whatever happened to a healthy cynicism so essential for Journalism, your bullshit detector works when it comes to Uncle Scam but it completely ceases to function when it comes to China. You’re a wild eyed true believing Maoist aren’t you an embarrassing anachronism who won’t even be taken seriously in contemporary China. Have you traveled to Xinjiang and Tibet and freely talked to those ethnic groups. I bet you haven’t and still you have the temerity to spout rubbish about how good they have it. You talk about ‘Zero Evidence’ for Mao’s famine, a preposterous claim if the Great Leap was such a success why did Marshall Peng, Liu Shaoqi, Deng etc etc stop the program in the 1950s congress and sideline Mao while also condemning the cult of personality? Why? Have you read Chinese Historians who agree that the great leap was a disaster. If the Cultural revolution was so great why did the CCP immediately abandon it on Mao’s death?

    What primary sources have you read to substantiate such radical claims, how many Chinese Historians have you interviewed. I asked you this before and I’m asking it again, Can you read and write Chinese at a graduate level? In most of your articles you never link to Chinese language sources, your Scarcity of footnotes is noted. Have you ever visited a single government archive and read from the primary sources. Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence which you have singularly failed to provide.

    In short you are a deranged hack.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Godfree Roberts
  288. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Aaron, really it is your critical thinking that is mediocre here. You are literally saying this is how I stereotype a certain people to be, now let me Google it and find proof. That might pass on 4chan or a gamer forum but that won’t pass here at Unz.

    If you want to contribute value, you should be doing the opposite. Examine primary source material, and then make a conclusion based on what you learned. I doubt you even read the article, you just lazily scanned the article to try and extract what you are trying to say.

    Anyone who is involved in tech would have laughed at this article. As far as Chinese coders go their biggest drawback is language skills, bot coding skills. There are plenty of Chinese developers who get paid top dollars because they do excellent work. I don’t hire them because it is easier and cheaper to get an Eastern European coder to do the same work.

    As far as China not producing elite talent. You just discredited your viewpoint as being biased by making such a weak argument with your Google link. You showed you are just trying to force your opinion down peoples throats without any proof and you don’t have any credibility.

    Now watch you slink away defeated to another thread.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  289. Erebus says:
    @FB

    … my experience in the aerospace field is that Russia has such a deep and broad institutional tradition of excellence…they are simply unmatched…

    My experience as well. Working on a design-engineering consulting job now with the Vienna office of a Russian co. I thought I was clever. Not so sure now…

    • LOL: FB
  290. @FB

    Of course, by science I mean the fields I know: biochemistry, cell biology, and related things. I cannot objectively evaluate physics, math, engineering, or materials science. However, the root cause of poor quality of ridiculously expensive American military toys is not necessarily the deficiencies of underlying science: Pentagon contractors maximize their profits, not combat capabilities of their products. This won’t change as long as the generals, who all retire to lucrative sinecures in ”defense” industry, and politicians, wholly owned by the profiteers, eagerly support this ruse.

    I know that a lot of faculty in Physics and Math departments in the best US universities are Russians (in the broad sense: people of all nationalities from former Soviet Union), so something must have attracted them here. One factor is relative over-production of highly educated people by the USSR, but I suspect there are other reasons, too.

    • Replies: @FB
  291. FB says: • Website
    @AaronB

    Remember, chinese [sic] engineers still can’t make decent jet engines.

    This is true…for now…but it’s basically a matter of time…

    Jet engines are hard to make…especially, say, compared to an iPhone…

    At the same time, the US is unable to build a hypersonic glider like the Russian Avangard…or a scramjet engine, like the Russian Zirkon…or even a high performance rocket engine…a human carrying spacecraft etc…despite spending trillions on the MIC…

    China’s socialist system has brought the country up to a very high technical, scientific and educational level in a remarkably short time…

    America’s education system is failing…as exemplified by yourself…

  292. Erebus says:
    @FB

    BTW FB, my alma mater is on that list. Not that I know the sqrt of fuck-all about coding beyond what does to enable my mechanical work.

  293. AaronB says:
    @Anonymous

    It seems to me you are primarily bringing up your personal experiences – anecdote – which apparently indicate that cheap Eastern European talent is equivalent to elite Chinese talent that is getting paid top dollar lol.

    So you are kind of bearing out what the study is saying. And that study is by far the most objective and reliable we have so far, btw – not some “hacker” competition. As well, this study assesses aggregate performance, so much more reliable than an individual Chinese placing high in any competition, and much more reliable than your anecdote.

    You are obviously some sort of Eastern European annoyed at American triumphalism once again – I get that and I respect that.

    And I am not here for that reason – just to throw some cold hard reality on the rather luxuriant fantasies of Godfree.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Erebus
  294. @FB

    but my experience in the aerospace field is that Russia has such a deep and broad institutional tradition of excellence…they are simply unmatched…

    Indeed the outstanding safety record of Aeroflot comes to my mind.

    • Replies: @FB
  295. @MikeatMikedotMike

    I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. On the contrary, only the difference in opinion makes the discussion interesting. What I expect is people open to argument, people who offer evidence to support their views.

    That is why I say that it is useless to argue with “true believers”, who stick to their preconceived ideas (actually, received wisdom) regardless of the evidence. You can never convince a true believer Muslim that his Allah is neither better nor worse than Yahweh of the Jews or Christian God of Trinity. Similarly, you can never convince a true believer Commy that his faith (in fact, preached by Christ in the limited Aramaic vocabulary of his time) has gaping holes, just like any other.

    Arguing with normal people with different views makes sense: you learn things you did not know, and tell them things they did not know. In contrast, arguing with a true believer is about as profitable as having heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  296. FB says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    However, the root cause of poor quality of ridiculously expensive American military toys is not necessarily the deficiencies of underlying science…

    It goes deeper than that…starting with incoherent education policy…and the completely scatterbrained funding of research and development projects…astronautics is a perfect case study…it’s on again, off again…now funneling money into private startups like SpaceX and Bezos’ Blue Origin which just don’t have the ‘right stuff…’

    Apollo was the only truly well organized effort and it was a top down model like the Soviets…some ways of doing things in this field just work…others don’t…

    I can honestly say that nothing interesting is coming out of US aerospace R&D at this time…it’s a mess…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  297. @FB

    Well, I can’t say that I am surprised. A lot of things in the US went down in the last few decades. Funding is a big issue in biomedical research, as well. As success rate of grants went down from ~20% in early 1990s to 5-7% today, funding became more of a lottery. Everyone knows that there is no difference between 5th and 15th percentile quality-wise, so your funding largely depends on the luck of getting the reviewers who understand your proposal and are interested in the results. As one of my colleagues said, we live dangerously.

  298. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    That’s not what I said at all. Can you even read or is your IQ that low?

    Eastern Europe has excellent coders, I never compared them to elite Chinese coders. As I said I don’t send Chinese coders much work because the language barrier makes it not worth my time and hassle.

    But other people in my company do outsource to China and Vietnam and they generally do great work. I outsource at least 40% of the work I get and people in my field know where the talent is. Did you wonder why your article mentioned Russia, China, and India? It’s because that’s where the bulk of the talent is concentrated.

    As far as studies go, I don’t pay attention to the Hacker study nor would I even pay attention at all to your Google link. I use my own experience outsourcing the work first hand.

    Me: First hand experience.
    You: Nothing at all. Angry and bitter at the world. Hoping that your Google links will somehow change something in the real world. Hahahhaha.

  299. FB says: • Website
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    And I’m guessing you’re some kind of ‘expert’ in the field…

    If you want to talk aerospace safety let’s start with astronaut fatalities…

    The US has lost 14 astronauts to Russia’s total of 4…both Shuttle crashes were catastrophic in-flight vehicle breakups…

    That has never happened in the Russian space program, which has spent a lot more time in space…the Russian fatalities were caused by minor malfunctions…while the vehicles landed intact…the deadliest one with three cosmonaut deaths was caused by cabin depressurization, and could have been prevented by wearing spacesuits while re-entering…standard practice now…that was back in 1971 and was the last Russian spaceflight fatality…

    Last fall we saw the Soyuz crew rescue system work flawlessly…an in-flight breakup is a different matter…it is unthinkable…and can only be the result of poor design…

    Also consider that the Russians have been flying to space continuously since 1961…while the US has had a total of 14 years of no human spaceflight capability whatsoever during that same time frame…from 2011 to present…and 1975 to 1981…

    I could write a book…btw airline operations are a different kettle of fish and have nothing to do with aerospace technology and education…Aeroflot was the world’s biggest airline for many years…and also operated in severe weather conditions not encountered in the west…as well as serving many small airports some with unpaved runways or even on skis…many of those airplanes were smaller propeller craft that are inherently less safe…

    Today Aeroflot is ranked among the world’s safest airlines…

    Russian aircraft are actually very safe…there has never been a fatal design defect like the De Havilland Comet early jetliner…three of which were lost in a span of a year…or even today’s Boeing 737 MAX, with two lost in six months due to faulty design…

    After the Comet was pulled from service, the Tupolev Tu 104 was the world’s only operating jetliner from 1956 until 1958, until the Boeing 707 came into service…

    If you compare aircraft to aircraft [jetliners, not propeller] you see Russian aircraft have comparable safety records to western analogs…

    The simple fact is that Russian aerospace technology is far ahead of the US today…in key areas like hypersonics and advanced propulsion…that is beyond dispute…and the quality of Russian aerospace engineers is very impressive indeed…

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  300. peterAUS says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    Pretty much.

    Now, his writing is also quite popular around, apparently. Hehe…what does that make of those could be an interesting question.
    My take: wouldn’t know about deranged but, definitely having deep negative feelings about West, USA in particular.

    I just have a vague feeling that somebody, somewhere, is having a good laugh. Maybe even in Beijing.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  301. JNDillard says:

    Dear Mr. Roberts, I liked your article so well I created my own, for a specialized audience, drawing largely from your essay. http://www.integralworld.net/dillard24.html Thanks for your contributions on this very important topic.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  302. Rich says:
    @FB

    Do you have a schoolgirl crush on me, or something? I guess when you’re repeating the nonsense of the feminist left, it gives you hope they’ll let you hold their pocketbook at the next rally, but you really are a bit of a bore. Really. Can’t you cut and paste another cartoon some other guy came up with? Now you’re a fan of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin, hilarious. At least you amuse me.

    • Replies: @denk
  303. @Biff

    Sense of proportion. You should acquire one.

  304. @FB

    “you would realize that your ‘point’ is nonsensical…”

    A framing square is nonsensical to a Bantu.

    “US and western labor doesn’t flow to low income countries…just like water doesn’t flow uphill…the point like I said is labor arbitrage”

    No – the point is the people come to the US because it IS a high income country. That’s one of the things that makes it better than just about any other place in the world. You’re developing your deliberate obtuseness into an art form.

    • LOL: FB
  305. @AnonFromTN

    “I am here because basic science in the US is still better than in most other countries. ”

    That is to say, exceptional. Thanks for agreeing with me.

  306. @AnonFromTN

    tl;dr

    PS: You should go back.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  307. Lo says:

    Lol for claims about American engineers & programmers. Just about every major computer language is designed in the US, chips are invented here, almost all major web frameworks and technologies are American, best games are made by American companies, operating systems are American (Android, Windows, MacOS, major Linux distros), on AI regardless of number of papers from China revolutionary tech still comes from the US (just look at GANs), next-generation computers are being developed by Intel and IBM. As far as software products are concerned most of what China does is copying what is already invented.

    Don’t believe me? Just look at who does not try to compete in the US market, and who locks their market to protect their engineering companies. If Chinese engineering is so amazing why aren’t they opening their markets so that American companies can compete with the Chinese? It is as simple as that to prove which has better engineers and programmers.

    Programming competitions means next to nothing. They are essentially based on solving math problems through computers. If MIT, Harvard and every other top school in the US also intensively trained their best students to win these competitions, they would win. It is just a waste of resources and time of a bright mind to be trained to win these competitions while there are more important, real problems waiting to be solved.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Vidi
    , @FB
  308. Erebus says:
    @AaronB

    And I am not here for that reason – just to throw some cold hard reality on the rather luxuriant fantasies of Godfree.

    Maybe you should send some Tim Cook’s way. He sounds like he could benefit from some of your cold hard reality as well.

    “There’s a confusion about China. The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I’m not sure what part of China they go to but the truth is China stopped being the low labor cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location and the type of skill it is.”

    … China has an abundance of skilled labor unseen elsewhere…

    Good ol’ Tim must’ve drank a lot of what people like you accuse Godfree of drinking.

    Aaron, you and many others here are simply either in denial, or are so utterly tunnel-visioned that they have no idea of what they speak. Or both. In most cases both.

    The ultra-high level vocational & production skills Tim talks about are the tip of an enormous iceberg of lesser talents. From Tim’s top end to the village workshop and everything in between is what China offers. In that sense, there’s 100 Chinas. Every level has its skills, and its price. From cheap ‘n cheerful gadgets to Tier 1 high-end tooling, the depth and breadth of China’s industrial base is staggering.

    The thing to keep in mind is that the base has been but 30-40 years in the making, from a very low starting point. Less than a decade from now, I’ll wager, China will be at the forefront of developing the new world-changing technologies that the West made a couple of decades ago.

    • Replies: @Iris
  309. denk says:
    @Rich

    The US doesn’t execute anyone without a trial, where did that nonsense come from? Executions take place after a long legal process, a too long legal process

    kiddo
    The unitedsnakes are into extra judicial, extra territorial executions big time.
    Do you need a dictionary ??

    Remember, terrorists and spies have no protections under the Geneva Conventions

    You mean those thousands of ‘terrorists’ and ‘spies’ you summarily execute in Afpak, Africa,…..?

    When’r you gonna bomb those certified terrorists in WH, CIA, Pentagon ???

  310. Erebus says:
    @Lo

    Your reply misunderstands development.

    Just about every major computer language is designed in the US…

    Yes it is, and that’s simply because the US entered the field at the time new foundational computer languages were required for the industry to get going. There is no screaming need for new languages today. The world has moved on. Historically, next generation development had no need to re-invent the wheel. Development builds on precedence. That’s how it works.

    … chips are invented here…

    The same can be said about chip development, and that’s changing as well with Huawei’s 7nM Kirin processor. With that processor and the ones that follow will come new operating systems that leave bloated Windows and MacOS behind. Indeed, Huawei has announced it is bringing out its HongMeng OS to make best use of their processor.

    It is just a waste of resources and time of a bright mind to be trained to win these competitions while there are more important, real problems waiting to be solved.

    This statement not only misunderstands the ICPC contest in which contestants are given real programming problems to solve, it misunderstands how competition drives downstream development of everyday products. Think of the many technologies first implemented in F1 racing that have filtered down to your average $15k car. Everything from disc brakes to turbochargers to computerized engine management systems, and 100 technologies in between.

    The point of all this is that the West and the East are on different trajectories. One declining, at least in relative terms, and one rising. Inevitably, there’ll be exceptions and outliers that can be referenced to make facile arguments one way or the other, but the trajectory is all that really matters in the end. Nothing makes the decline so obviously apparent as the US resorting to fatwah-esque sanctions, military threats and bizarre legal distortions in the attempt to make China’s and Russia’s rise shallower.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @Lo
    , @FB
  311. Rich says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Are you really making the argument that violent felons shouldn’t be shot, and if they are, it’s murder? Again, it is absolutely not an “execution” if a police officer shoots someone who is in the commission of a crime. I’m amazed that people have drifted so far to the left nowadays that such argument can be made. I’m guessing you’re a very young man, but I’d ask you to research America, and NYC in particular from the late 1960s thru the early 1990s. Violent crime was out of control due to soft judges who stopped police from doing their jobs, and let violent felons out of prison early. Everything you guys are promoting, and advocating, has been tried before. And the result of your new, old, ideas, was over 2,000 murders a year in NYC alone, real murders, of innocents.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Vidi
    , @Godfree Roberts
  312. Iris says:
    @Erebus

    China will be at the forefront of developing the new world-changing technologies that the West made a couple of decades ago.

    A country’s ranking in the production of scientific publications is an undeniable precursor of such pre-eminence. By 2017, China had already overtaken the US and the EU.

    • Replies: @FB
  313. Lo says:
    @Erebus

    Yes it is, and that’s simply because the US entered the field at the time new foundational computer languages were required for the industry to get going. There is no screaming need for new languages today.

    Lol again, US did not enter the field after it was invented, most of the field was invented in the US. There is a need for new languages on an on-going basis because needs change over time, that is why new languages keep coming and all those new languages (Kotlin, Go, Typescript, Swift just a few invented recently) are all coming from the US.

    The same can be said about chip development, and that’s changing as well with Huawei’s 7nM Kirin processor. With that processor and the ones that follow will come new operating systems that leave bloated Windows and MacOS behind. Indeed, Huawei has announced it is bringing out its HongMeng OS to make best use of their processor.

    Again, chip technology was invented and developed in the US, not in China, not in Russia. The US did not enter a field after it was invented, the field is created here. Besides, what is the point of pointing a Chinese company that says it will build an OS on top of Linux, 40 years after OS industry was invented? I thought your argument was that they were better engineers, from what you say it doesn’t seem to be the case. Plus HongMeng or not, nothing will change, Huawei is basically dead without Android if China does not accept trade deal.

    This statement not only misunderstands the ICPC contest in which contestants are given real programming problems to solve, it misunderstands how competition drives downstream development of everyday products.

    Lol one more. Of course they are given real programming problems, otherwise, what would they solve? Hahaha that was really funny. Clearly, I am pointing unsolved, real-life applicable problems when I talk about “real problems.” All those competition questions are previously solved problems. Thus nothing of theoretical value comes out from them. And there is almost zero connection between ICPC and everyday products unless everyday products you talk are competitive programming handbooks.

    You have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t even need to write all this, anyone who defends your view can start by explaining why China effectively bans high tech American companies from entering its market, and why none of the Chinese software companies tries to enter the US market. Best of China at Baidu still couldn’t even write an indexer as good as Google’s in two decades, others consistently try to steal American tech by luring Chinese engineers who work at some of these American companies. You don’t hear the same happening the other way around do you? Gee, I wonder why?

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @denk
  314. denk says:
    @Rich

    kiddo

    real murders, of innocents.

    How many innocent bystanders, meaning civilians, have been killed by merikkan terrorists since ww2 ?

    Make a guess, asshole !

  315. denk says:

    I see you choose to ignore Erebus’s observation,
    that the unitedsnakes are wetting their pants of
    being overtaken by China, so much so that they
    have to resort to low life tech fatwah against
    Huawei and the rest of rising Chinese high tech.

    IOW, things are changing .

    • Replies: @denk
  316. @peterAUS

    It’s telling that he hasn’t answered my questions about his Chinese proficiency or his basic credentials to be a revisionist historian of Modern China. I’ve asked him twice and nothing but silence on his part. I’m forced to draw the appropriate conclusions about his Chinese credentials.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Godfree Roberts
  317. Erebus says:
    @Lo

    I thought your argument was that they were better engineers, from what you say it doesn’t seem to be the case.

    Whatever you may have thought, that completely misses the point of what I was saying.

    … Huawei is basically dead without Android if China does not accept trade deal.

    They’ll doubtless take a hit, but it’s Android that’ll be “basically dead” long before Huawei is. Once an alternative with some critical mass is available, the world will begin its exodus from the NSA-Google nexus. The American public may be forced to stick with it, but the rest of the world will quite happily walk away.

    All those competition questions are previously solved problems. Thus nothing of theoretical value comes out from them.

    Huh? That’s like saying final exams in (say) Physics have no value because no new theory has come out of them so the final marks signify nothing about the quality of the students writing them.

    Best of China at Baidu still couldn’t even write an indexer as good as Google’s in two decades…

    Again, it’s all about trajectories. What China could do 10-20 years ago when its domestic software industry was in its infancy and the US’ was in full flower, and what it’ll be able to do 10-20 years from now when the US flower has wilted is the interesting question.

    • Replies: @Lo
  318. denk says:
    @denk

    that’s for lo.

    I was only clicking the review button ?

  319. Vidi says:
    @Lo

    Just about every major computer language is designed in the US

    Algol (link) was “developed jointly by a committee of European and American computer scientists in a meeting in 1958 at ETH Zurich”. (ETH Zurich is in Switzerland.)

    “In the sense that the syntax of most modern [programming] languages is “Algol-like”, [Algol] was arguably the most influential of the four high-level programming languages among which it was roughly contemporary: FORTRAN, Lisp, and COBOL.”

    almost all major web frameworks and technologies are American

    However, the World Wide Web itself (used by you to pat yourself on the back for probably being American) was invented by a Brit at CERN, which is also in Switzerland.

    operating systems are American

    Linux was created by a Finnish programmer while he was at the University of Helsinki (which is in Finland). Android, which runs on something like 90% of the smartphones in the world, is based on Linux. In fact, there are now far more computers running Android (and therefore Linux) than there are PCs running Windows.

    The U.S. has contributed much to the computer world, but many of the most important innovations come from elsewhere.

    Granted, China hasn’t contributed a great deal yet to computing, but wait a few years. China is probably already leading in the race to build a true exaflop supercomputer. And is looking beyond that to optical technologies.

    • Replies: @Lo
  320. Escher says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Since everyone’s doing a “race to the bottom” comparison between America and China, without addressing the veracity of the allegations, let me add my 2 cents to the above poster.
    Animal rights are indeed a big deal in the US, but only for favored species. The factory farms could teach everyone a thing or two about raising animals in a degraded fashion. Also how about the way lobsters and crabs are boiled alive? Foie gras anyone?

  321. Escher says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I sometimes think the author is a troll..

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  322. Escher says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Per capita CCTV count is not the right metric, considering the densely packed nature of Chinese cities.
    Also I have been in Chinese highways, and the flashing of cameras recording the cars driving by cannot be missed. Haven’t seen anything like it in the US.

  323. Escher says:
    @Anonymous

    I never said that the US government does not conduct surveillance on its citizens and the rest of the world. But that does not justify what China is doing to the Tibetans and Uighurs.

  324. Escher says:
    @Joe Wong

    Again, so the fact that western governments do bad things is justification for China doing the same?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  325. denk says:
    @Lo

    Huawei is basically dead without Android if China does not accept trade deal.

    Trump the charlatan has already made this Freudian slip, meaning all that cry about Huawei’s security risk is typical murikkan cow dung.

    The prez of unitedsnake, the ‘world cop’,
    is nuthin but a glorified extortionist in chief.
    A mafiaso !

    hehehheheh

    • Replies: @Lo
  326. DB Cooper says:
    @Escher

    “Per capita CCTV count is not the right metric, considering the densely packed nature of Chinese cities.”

    The whole CCTV/public surveillance thing raised by the West is actually a non issue, in China at least. Believe me or not the Chinese actually likes to have CCTV in the public everywhere. It makes them feel more safe. This government phobia/big brother syndrome does not exist in China. I read that Korea also have CCTV everywhere too in the public. Their society probably also does not have this government phobia/big brother syndrome.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Wizard of Oz
  327. Vidi says:
    @Rich

    Are you really making the argument that violent felons shouldn’t be shot, and if they are, it’s murder? Again, it is absolutely not an “execution” if a police officer shoots someone who is in the commission of a crime.

    I’m not Godfree Roberts, but I think that police officers on the spot should not be judge, jury, and executioner. Shouldn’t the courts be involved somehow before someone is executed?

    (Of course, policemen sometimes need to kill in self-defense. But it is hard to argue self-defense when the victim was unarmed.)

    I’m amazed that people have drifted so far to the left nowadays that such argument can be made.

    In wanting the courts to be involved before someone is executed, the people are drifting towards the Constitution of the United States. Specifically, towards the fifth amendment: “No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury”. In arguing otherwise, you are drifting away.

  328. DB Cooper says:
    @Escher

    If you believe what the West says then yeah it is bad. But surprise, the accusations of the West is not based on reality. Fake news anyone? China actually should be commended for its treatment of its minorities, Tibetans and Uighurs included.

  329. Erebus says:
    @Escher

    Also I have been in Chinese highways, and the flashing of cameras recording the cars driving by cannot be missed. Haven’t seen anything like it in the US.

    Indeed, but did you also notice the complete lack of highway police?

    I’ve never seen even one except those attending an accident. There’s zero police on highway patrol, at least from my fairly extensive experience. One wonders how they even know there’s been an accident. Hint: The cameras are (part of) the answer.

    BTW, the flashes from the cameras are completely unnecessary in the daytime. Ever wonder why they’re active then? Hint: That let’s everyone know (or believe) there’s cameras at that location.

  330. Lo says:
    @denk

    Lol, I am open with my intentions, so there is no Freudian slip. It is just a fact that Huawei is dead without Android, and it is because of trade deal. However, it is fair to not trust Huawei equipment. Just recently Amazon was exposed due to backdoors installed by the Chinese supplier on their server hardware. If you don’t want such treatment, then tell your government to not put backdoors on the hardware and software Chinese companies make. Other than that, I have no problem with Huawei or Chinese engineers. Huawei makes great phones, and some Chinese engineers are excellent. But there are some who pretend as if American engineers cannot build anything great, while objective measures say otherwise!

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @denk
  331. Lo says:
    @Vidi

    Algol (link) was “developed jointly by a committee of European and American computer scientists in a meeting in 1958 at ETH Zurich”. (ETH Zurich is in Switzerland.)

    You just proved my point.

    However, the World Wide Web itself (used by you to pat yourself on the back for probably being American) was invented by a Brit at CERN, which is also in Switzerland.

    The underlying tech is developed by DARPA. Besides Brits are basically Americans or vice versa if it makes you happier.

    Linux was created by a Finnish programmer while he was at the University of Helsinki (which is in Finland). Android, which runs on something like 90% of the smartphones in the world, is based on Linux.

    Linus is a Finnish-American. He wrote Linux kernel after he studied Tanenbaum’s textbook (Tanenbaum is American) and it is based on UNIX which is again an American invention. His code today is less than 1% of the Linux code base.

    Granted, China hasn’t contributed a great deal yet to computing, but wait a few years

    I would be happy if they contribute a lot to anything good for humans.

    China is probably already leading in the race to build a true exaflop supercomputer.

    Supercomputers aren’t what you think they are. The main problem is not building the next supercomputer with current technology, the problem is the amount of energy they require. A dozen supercomputers use enough energy to run a small country.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  332. Anon[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    How your iPhone harvests your personal data while you SLEEP: Popular apps use hidden trackers to collect emails, IP addresses and other sensitive information without consent

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7080087/Popular-apps-use-hidden-trackers-collect-personal-data-without-users-consent.html

    Google, Facebook, and all other American giant tech companies do these sorts of thing, and the US government has the capability to spy on practically every American. Case in point , NSA can listen to you through your phone even when it is off. When Edward Snowden met the reporters in the hotel in HK, the first thing he did was to shut off their phones and put them in his room refrigerator.

    And CCTV and security cameras are everywhere in the US cities. The Boston marathon bombers were caught because of CCTV.

    Tsarnaev trial: New surveillance footage revealed

    https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/09/us/boston-marathon-bombing-trial/index.html

  333. peterAUS says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    Well, I am still undecided about the author and that’s the only reason I skim through his article and comments.
    I hope he is a smart guy who is taking a piss here and at the same time get some …ahm…bonus from Beijing.
    There is a possibility he is one of those true believers in what he writes about and that’s ….interesting. I mean, if he is of that type, how many of the same type are around us? Not just believers in that but the same types-strong belief in something that simply doesn’t make sense. Hehe..having said that, well…when you think about it….isn’t actually the most of “chattering class” the same? Not blabbing about China but plenty of other stuff: equality of sexes, “Russia and Trump election”, gay/lesbian couples equal to heteros….LONG list.
    We live in crazy world. The author is just a very mild example. Or..hehe..again…maybe he isn’t. Just feeding on it.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  334. Lo says:
    @Erebus

    They’ll doubtless take a hit, but it’s Android that’ll be “basically dead” long before Huawei is.

    You don’t understand tech isn’t baking cakes.

    Once an alternative with some critical mass is available, the world will begin its exodus from the NSA-Google nexus.

    No, there will be neither critical mass nor exodus. God is too jaded and people are too stupid for another exodus. Original exodus took God, a prophet, and long debates with 115 IQ Jews who were enslaved by 82 IQ Egyptians.

    That’s like saying final exams in (say) Physics have no value because no new theory has come out of them so the final marks signify nothing about the quality of the students writing them

    Yes, most exams are useless, neither the smart need them nor the stupid is cured by them. I said it is useless to waste smart people’s time on repetitive, drill and practice-based competitions.

    Again, it’s all about trajectories.

    Okay I will remember it. Yours is downward by the way. Thanks.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  335. @AaronB

    China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields, tying with the U.S. The agency took the top 10% of the most referenced studies in each field, and determined the number of authors who were affiliated with the U.S., the U.K., Germany, France, China or Japan. China ranked first in computer science, mathematics, materials science and engineering. The U.S. led the way in physics, environmental and earth sciences, basic life science and clinical medicine. https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-ties-the-US-as-the-most-influential-nation-in-science

    The Allen Institute for Artificial Intelligence (Ai2) examined not just the number of AI research papers coming from China but the quality of those papers—as judged by the number of citations they receive in other work. The study suggests that China will overtake the US in the most-cited 50% of research papers this year, the top 10% of research papers next year and the top 1% by 2025.

  336. @AaronB

    Jet engines is one of the few areas in which China lags Russia and the US, true, but we still can’t build a decent rocket engine.

    Pratt & Whitney and General Electric spent more than 12 years developing prototypes of the F119 engine in the 1980s, followed by another 14 years of testing after the engine’s maiden flight, fitted to an F-22, in September 1997. Here are the outputs for some popular engines:

    Pratt & Whitney F119 91kN

    GE F-15K. 131kN

    Izdeliye-30. 123 kN (27,600 lb) with afterburning in the AL-31F, 137 kN (30,800 lb) in the AL-31FM (AL-35F) and 145 kN (32,000 lb) in the AL-37FU variants. Currently it powers all Su-27 derivatives and the Chengdu J-10 multirole jet fighter which has been developed by China

    Shenyang WS-10. 140 kN

    P&W J58 (SR-71 Blackbird). 150kN

    The Shenyang WS-15, 160kN, has just completed ground testing (with that thrust reached), and is testing on an IL-76LL platform.

    • Replies: @FB
  337. @eah

    Our first Pure Foods Laws were passed, against much opposition to combat the sale of gutter oil/grey milk.

  338. @Grahamsno(G64)

    My primary sources are The Analects, in which Confucius described in detail the logic and necessity for creating a xiaokang society (low GINI, moderate prosperity)–the first level of which will be established by the end of next year–before attempting a dàtóng (radical equality, as quoted above).

    If you study Mao’s speeches and writings you will find him repeatedly urging his colleagues not to abandon the dàtóng vision, and they did not.

    I have not done an exhaustive search but former President Hu Jintao[1] reiterated it and Foreign Minister Wang Yi has invited the world to join in creating “A dàtóng world in which everyone belongs to a big family working cooperatively to solve the global challenges facing our planet by setting goals that transcend similarities and differences between countries, parties and systems and reflect the universal expectation of most countries and the common interests of men and women everywhere.”

    President Xi has identified it as China’s ‘second centennial goal,’ the first being full xiaokang, for the by 2035 as the national goal.


    [1] Hu Jintao, ‘Holding the great banner of Socialism with Chinese characteristics and struggling to achieve the new victory of the construction of a prosperous society.’ Renmin Ribao [People’s Daily], 25 October 2007.

  339. @Rich

    By all means shoot violent felons if they attempt to kill you, but that’s rare. Most of our sanctioned executions do not occur under such conditions.

    The fall in violent crime was unrelated to the rise in sanctioned executions and correlates well with the banning of lead paint and changing demographics.

    • Replies: @Rich
  340. @Grahamsno(G64)

    I do not write about China on my own authority, as I would about the few disciplines in which I have both professional qualifications and decades of experience.

    When I write about China I quote, where possible, the actors themselves and evidence international bodies of high repute. That’s why you see so many footnotes. I do, however, have the luxury of verifying their claims, since I live an hour from the Chinese border, visit regularly, and am very close to a disadvantaged Chinese family of Hakka boat people and have traced the rise of their village since 1970.

    I do not respond to ad hominem fishing expeditions, however. Deal with the facts. Check my sources.

  341. @Godfree Roberts

    China is a democracy. Constitutionally, electively, popularly, procedurally, operationally, substantively financially, even theocratically…

    LMAO you demented Hack, are you for real.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Lo
  342. @Escher

    I envy the originality of your thought processes, the candor with which you express them and the value they add to the Unz Review.

    On behalf of everyone here, thank you.

    • Agree: Iris
  343. @Escher

    How would you govern 1.4 billion people with unarmed cops living on 20% of our arable land and speaking 35 languages, while spending one-fourth our internal security budget?

  344. @Escher

    China is enriching and educating its Tibetans and Uyghursboth very backward people–while fighting American-funded terrorists recruited from their midst and doing it without killing any of them.

  345. @Escher

    China does not do the same. Flat out. That is Western MSM propaganda.

    That’s the point of the series I’ve been writing here. I suggest you read it.

  346. @peterAUS

    What in God’s name does the author’s intention have to do with anything? I’m not asking you to believe anything I write. That’s why I provide footnotes and survey results from Western sources.

    This is not a belief/personality game. It’s a fact business. Check ’em out. Ask questions about them if they don’t add up but don’t play personality games.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  347. @Godfree Roberts

    There is zero basis in fact for any of your allegations.

    Zero

    . They’re just paid commercial announcements.

    Well genius historian why are state executions statistics in China a state secret, years back they used to release them why did they stop? You could counter his argument and prove that the western media are making “paid commercial announcements” about Chinese executions by publishing primary source documents from the Chinese Judiciary about Capital Punishment. But you can’t because you don’t have access to their archives and you have never interviewed Judges or lawyers regarding Capital punishment in China. In short you’re just a poseur a wild eyed Maoist pretending to be a historian and a revisionist one as well, a much harder job. All you do is regurgitate English translations of Chinese Propaganda, imagine a foreign revisionist Historian of a nation as different as China who has no access to their archives and cannot read or write the language with the proficiency demanded of revisionist Historians.

    Compare yourself with a Revisionist Historian like David Irving, a fluent German Speaker and reader who interviewed hundreds if not thousands of Nazis, unearthed a trove of Primary Source documents in short he worked very hard and opened up new vistas of research and told the untold story of the Nazi side during WW2. Compared to him you’re to use your favourite number a big fat “Zero”.

    All foreigners in China inevitably get Chinese names I wish I could call you Dr. Pangloss but I don’t know its Chinese equivalent.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  348. @DB Cooper

    I spoke to a very senior Australian politician recently and I don’t think he needed persuading that, as I put it, an ageing population would be pleased to have CCTV in their streets (with facial recognition). I didn’t have the opportunity to emphasise that preventing abuse of surveillance was key.

  349. @Godfree Roberts

    I recall that you have minimised the events of 1989 still referred to generally as the Tiananmen Square Massacre as amounting to almost nothing so I would be interested in how you would attempt to refute the opposite picture here

    30 Years After Tiananmen, a Chinese Military Insider Warns: Never Forget

    A former People’s Liberation Army journalist defied a political taboo to describe the bloody crackdown in Beijing and urge a national reckoning.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/world/asia/china-tiananmen-square-massacre.html

    The fact that you visit China and no doubt have some conversations with ordinary Chinese people doesn’t add much weight to your hearsay exculpatory views of the affair. What solid case can you make against that account which includes reference to eight generals expressing disapproval of the plan to use deadly force?

  350. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    He spent his time becoming literate. You should emulate him.

  351. @Grahamsno(G64)

    I am, indeed, for real. I’ve taught US Constitutional history and studied China’s Constitution and its implementation of it thoroughly and published my findings in these very pages.

    Read this and refute it if you wish: https://www.unz.com/article/selling-democracy-to-china/.

  352. Erebus says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Read what an Australian diplomat stationed in Beijing at the time writes…

    So what actually happened in Tiananmen Square on the night of June 4? Fortunately we have some eyewitness reports, and they all say one thing – absolutely nothing.

    http://gregoryclark.net/page15/page15.html

  353. FB says: • Website
    @Iris

    A country’s ranking in the production of scientific publications is an undeniable precursor of such pre-eminence.

    I don’t agree…a lot of ‘peer reviewed’ literature is pure bullshit…and encompasses many pseudo-scientific fields like psychology etc…

    Also when it comes to hard science literature quality is far more important than quantity…

    If you take physics and mathematics, for instance, only a handful of papers in the last 100 years have been truly impactful…

    In my field of aeronautics and astronautics…only a couple of English language journals are worth perusing…the Russian language literature in this field offers far more…also many of the most significant papers are not publicly published, for obvious reasons…

    All in all the ‘scientific’ publications industry is a business where cranking out fluff is the thing that keeps the dollars flowing…

    • Agree: Biff
    • Replies: @Iris
    , @Godfree Roberts
  354. FB says: • Website
    @Lo

    Programming competitions means next to nothing. They are essentially based on solving math problems through computers. If MIT, Harvard and every other top school in the US also intensively trained their best students to win these competitions, they would win.

    How do you ‘know’ that students are ‘intensively trained’ for these competitions…?…did you consult your magic eight ball…?

    In fact how do you even ‘train’ for a programming competition…?…you become good at math and programming, that’s how…

    Do have any more of those delicious sour grapes…?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Lo
  355. @MikeatMikedotMike

    That’s symptomatic: when you have no meaningful arguments, all that remains is to wish the opponent disappear. Sorry to disappoint: ain’t gonna happen. Besides, if I do, the US science and graduate education would suffer. If I move to China, both would suffer twice as much.
    Cheers!

  356. Anonymous[487] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    FB,

    In fact how do you even ‘train’ for a programming competition…?

    You certainly train for them, knowing the existing body of solved algorithmic problems is merely a prereq.
    These competitions involve time limits and team work so its not something you just rock up to with your mates with the data downloaded and expect to win.

    That said being proud that your kids are acing a multiple choice compsci test paper is pathetic. Anyone can ace those, it involves reading the textbooks relevant to the curriculum the paper was based on and staying sober on exam day.
    In fact that ETS paper looks more like a test of each country’s curriculum standards and pregrad prep more than anything else, they’re testing students (grad/senior grad?) and not postgrads with working experience after all.

    Frankly no one should be judging the quality of a entire nation’s programmers based on either results, its nonsensical.

  357. Erebus says:
    @Lo

    Original exodus took God, a prophet, and long debates with 115 IQ Jews who were enslaved by 82 IQ Egyptians.

    Wasn’t it more like an ancient and glorious civilization that built the Pyramids rid itself of a murderous cult of desert bandits who had never built a thing?

    Yes, most exams are useless, neither the smart need them nor the stupid is cured by them.

    That they didn’t cure you is not to say that many even less talented people didn’t improve their performance substantially by having worked hard precisely because they faced exam time squarely.

    There’s one on every thread, and I guess it’s your turn here.

  358. Vidi says:
    @Lo

    It is just a fact that Huawei is dead without Android, and it is because of trade deal.

    No, it is just a fact that you are wrong. Huawei is not anywhere near dead even if it loses Android, which may not happen.

    First, only half of Huawei’s revenue comes from smartphones, where the Android operating sytem is relevant. (link).

    Second, China’s smartphone market is more than half the world’s: in 2017, it was $152 billion (link) of a global $478.2 billion (link).

    Third, Huawei has about 28% of the Chinese smartphone market (link). Therefore, Huawei’s smartphone income, just from China, are about $42 billion a year. Trump can’t touch that.

    Fourth, the profits on $42 billion a year should easily fund an Android replacement — even if the Chinese government doesn’t step in with a country-wide effort for new operating systems.

    At minimum, the company will have enormous revenues from a market that Trump can’t touch, a market that will probably have an increasingly large share of global smartphone sales. In addition, Huawei can become totally independent of Android. They’ll be fine.

    Just recently Amazon was exposed due to backdoors installed by the Chinese supplier on their server hardware.

    That is actually a lie. Bloomberg’s infamous “China spy chip” article has been proven to be fake news.

    Apple and Amazon explicitly deny claims that servers were compromised by Chinese chips (link)
    “Both Apple and Amazon are vehemently denying claims that their servers were compromised by Chinese spies following an explosive report from Bloomberg on [Oct 3, 2018].”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Vidi
  359. @Vidi

    Let’s be realistic: Huawei will have some difficulties in the short run, but it will become stronger in the long run: develop its own OS, chips, etc. Android and other dumb sheep that got onto sanctions bandwagon will lose some revenues now, and a lot more in the future, as Huawei will make sure that it does not deal with unreliable partners any more. So, they are losing the Chinese market for good.

    There is a recent example: anti-Russian sanctions pushed by the same short-sighted government. Russia had some difficulties for a couple of years, but the sanctions stimulated domestic development of many products, so now Russia supplies itself and does not have any more problems. In contrast, those who introduced and supported the sanctions lost Russian market for good. If the US or EU companies think that they can get anything back when the sanctions are lifted, they better think again.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Lo
  360. Vidi says:
    @Lo

    You just proved my point.

    No, your point was that nearly all programming languages were designed in the United States. I demonstrated that that was an enormous overstatement, as Algol, probably the most influential, had some heavy European contributions.

    However, the World Wide Web itself (used by you to pat yourself on the back for probably being American) was invented by a Brit at CERN, which is also in Switzerland.

    The underlying tech is developed by DARPA.

    If you want deep history, the programmable computer was invented in Germany by Konrad Zuse.

    Linux was created by a Finnish programmer while he was at the University of Helsinki (which is in Finland). Android, which runs on something like 90% of the smartphones in the world, is based on Linux.

    Linus is a Finnish-American.

    As I said, Linus Torvalds was Finnish (born in Finland) and was at Helsinki University when he wrote Linux. He was definitely not American then.

    He wrote Linux kernel after he studied Tanenbaum’s textbook (Tanenbaum is American) and it is based on UNIX which is again an American invention.

    As I said, if you want deep history, look up Konrad Zuse the German.

    I’ll repeat my previous conclusion: The U.S. has contributed much to the computer world, but many of the most important innovations come from elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Lo
  361. Iris says:
    @FB

    In my field of aeronautics and astronautics…only a couple of English language journals are worth perusing

    Same for other resource-demanding fields, such as the nuclear industry. These are relative niche engineering subjects that require decades of know-how, and/or several countries putting their resources in common.

    But Chinese are overtaking the West in electronics, electrical, civil, material science: their presence has become overwhelming in related proceedings. It is only a matter of time before they catch up with the remaining areas of technology. Especially if they team up with Russia.

  362. Rich says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    You write like an educated man, but I’m not sure if you’re an ideologue of the left, or unfamiliar with the facts. Every instance of a person being shot by a police officer I’m aware of, was the shooting of someone in the commission of a felony. The only case I’m, familiar with that goes against this, is the case of the Somalian shooting the Australian girl in Minnesota. Do you have actual examples of cops shooting innocents, or is it all blather?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  363. Vidi says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Let’s be realistic: Huawei will have some difficulties in the short run, but it will become stronger in the long run ….. There is a recent example: anti-Russian sanctions pushed by the same short-sighted government. If the US or EU companies think that they can get anything back when the sanctions are lifted, they better think again.

    Agree. (Sorry, my Agree button says I don’t comment enough to use it.)

  364. Vidi says:
    @Vidi

    Second, China’s smartphone market is more than half the world’s: in 2017, it was $152 billion (link) of a global $478.2 billion (link).

    Erratum: China’s smartphone market is only 30% of a global $478.2 billion. My other comments stand, especially that Huawei’s smartphone revenue from China is about $42 billion a year — easily enough to fund a substitute for Android.

    • Replies: @Lo
  365. @Grahamsno(G64)

    why are state executions statistics in China a state secret, years back they used to release them why did they stop? Because our media were using them as yet another a stick to beat China with while ignoring the fact that the US executes 1,000 people annually without trial and imprisons 2,000,000 also without trial. It’s a matter of perceptions, but it’s not being ignored there.

    In April 2000, a debate was organised by the Law Institute at Peking University on “the morality of the death penalty” followed by another, in November 2002, based on one particular case and in December of that year an international symposium on the death penalty was jointly organised by the Institute of Legal Studies of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, the Danish Centre for Human Rights and the University of Xiangtan (Hunan), a meeting which allowed for the airing of broader international perspectives.

    Chen Xingliang, Professor of Legal History at Peking University, is a leading promoter of these public debates and publications. He defends the principle abolition, while judging it to be currently impracticable. On the other hand, abolition requires conditions which, in his view, do not yet exist. China remains under-developed, both materially and culturally and the death penalty is regarded by the authorities and the population alike as an economical and efficient measure. What is under discussion therefore is not abolition as such, but the strict limitation of capital punishment. It is a gradual humanisation of the law that will one day make the abolitionist ideal something that can be realised. He points out that Europe first outlawed inhumane treatment such as torture before putting an end to capital punishment.

    What he doesn’t mention is that the United States is the only country to have both kept the death penalty and reintroduced torture as State policy.

    Except in the most extreme cases, all death penalties are suspended for two years to give culprits opportunity to repent and, hopefully, reform. Mao introduced this procedure in 1949 when his colleagues were keen to execute the hundreds of thousands of war criminals. His instructions[1] for establishing civil order were simple, “The principle is that those who owe blood debts or are guilty of extremely serious crimes and have to be executed to assuage the people’s anger and those who have caused extremely serious harm to the national interest must be unhesitatingly sentenced to death and executed without delay. As for those whose crimes deserve capital punishment but who owe no blood debts and are not bitterly hated by the people or who have done serious but not extremely serious harm to the national interest, the policy is to hand down the death sentence, grant a two-year reprieve and subject them to forced labour to see how they behave. What harm is there in not executing people? Those amenable to labour reform should go and do labour reform so that rubbish can be transformed into something useful. Remember, people’s heads are not like leeks. When you cut them off, they won’t grow again. If you cut off a head wrongly there is no way of rectifying the mistake even if you want to.”


    [1] Chairman Mao Talks To The People: Talks and Letters: 1956-1971 (The Pantheon Asia Library)

  366. @Wizard of Oz

    I have spoken to eyewitnesses, too.

    You can read my reply here: http://www.unz.com/article/tiananmen-square-1989-revisited/

    If you have any questions about what I’ve written, feel free.

  367. @FB

    Quite so. China, however, leads in both quantity and quality.

    China has overtaken the US to become the world’s largest producer of scientific research papers, making up almost a fifth of the total global output, according to a major new report. https://www.stm-assoc.org/document-library/

    You’ll find the methodology of these surveys interesting:

    Japan Science and Technology Agency, China now ranks as the most influential country in four of eight core scientific fields.https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-ties-the-US-as-the-most-influential-nation-in-science

    The Allen Institute for Artificial Intelligence (Ai2) examined not just the number of AI research papers coming from China but the quality of those papers—as judged by the number of citations they receive in other work. The study suggests that China will overtake the US in the most-cited 50% of research papers this year, the top 10% of research papers in 2020, and the top 1% by 2025. https://allenai.org/

    WIPO ranked 167 universities and public research universities for the top 500 patent applications. 110 of the patents were from China, 20 from the United States and 19 from South Korea. China dominates a global ranking of the most-cited research papers published in the 30 hottest technology fields.https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-tech/China-s-research-papers-lead-the-world-in-cutting-edge-tech

  368. @Rich

    Why execute someone for committing a felony?

    Should we ignore daily headlines like these:

    Officer Daniel Pantaleo of the New York Police Department was charged with killing a 43-year-old man named Eric Garner. Since then, Pantaleo has managed to avoid criminal prosecution. For the past two weeks, he has been on administrative trial with the NYPD. The worst punishment he faces is the loss of his job and pension. That is the extent of the justice Garner’s family can expect.

    After shouting “I’m pregnant,” woman fatally shot by Texas police officer

    The Deadly Perils of Traffic Stops in the American Police State

    • Replies: @Rich
  369. @Erebus

    I shall read that with interest but Greg Clark is, like his father, and some of his 8 siblings, a brilliant eccentric who was *not* a diplomat in China in 1989 but an academic in Japan who was – I heard him speak – spectacularly wrong about Japan’s economy back then.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  370. Rich says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Pantaleo was trying to take down a 6′ 3″ 350 lb man. Garner refused to obey commands, and resisted arrest. If that’s the case you’re using, you’re either misinformed, or a member of the radical left. Obviously.

    Are you unaware of how easy it is to look up facts in a case? The “pregnant” woman you refer to, wasn’t pregnant, stole the police officer’s taser, and used it on him, before being shot. If that’s your idea of an “execution” well , obviously, you’re being disingenuous.

  371. Lo says:
    @Vidi

    Lol, I am done with you my friend. You are getting more and more desperate to find something and are already beyond your depth. I know who Konrad Zuse is, perhaps you should mention abacus instead as it is thousands of years older and invented in China.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  372. Lo says:
    @Vidi

    Took you long enough genius. Then still, you show that you don’t know the difference between revenue and income.

  373. Lo says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Is that why they are losing their minds and now decided to sue the US government in the US lol. Quite the contrary, building an OS at this point is not the biggest challenge for a few hundred millions of dollars they can build an OS. The challenge is convincing people to develop for the OS. No developers outside China would bother developing for Huawei, why should they? So that the Chinese government can shut down their app / game and let a Chinese competitor build a copycat? Or give their user data to the Chinese government? I don’t think so. Android works well, IOS works well, the US gov isn’t known for shutting down companies or software applications, why would any sane company or programmer outside China develop for Huawei?

    It doesn’t matter whether the Chinese market will be lost or not in the long term, anything China produces can be produced elsewhere (including the US) and new markets can be developed. They forced their luck way too much, now they are paying for it.

  374. Lo says:
    @FB

    Lol, such ignorance. There are books and websites just for preparing for these competitions. Universities have coaches who prepare their teams for these competitions. Knowing mathematics or programming doesn’t make you a competitive programmer, it requires practice, memorization and more practice. Majority of engineers would do poorly against an average competitive programmer in these competitions, it means nothing other than not having mastery of competition practice.

    • Replies: @FB
  375. Erebus says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    My faulty memory thanks you and stands corrected. He had indeed left the Australian diplomatic corps by that point.

    … spectacularly wrong about Japan’s economy back then.

    More than a few people have been spectacularly wrong about Japan’s economy, and China’s.

  376. @Lo

    anything China produces can be produced elsewhere (including the US)

    I suggest you go to the US and visit any store (regular department store, Walmart, Target, Home Depot, Lowes, whatever…). Then compare the number of items made in the US (virtually nil) and made in China (~90% of merchandise). Then return to your weird shithole and report the results.

    As to soft developers, those who develop for Xuawei will remain in business, whereas those who don’t will fade away. Smarter businesses (like South Korean, Japanese, or Israeli) never miss a chance to fill the holes left by morons supporting US sanctions.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Lo
  377. FB says: • Website
    @Erebus

    Nothing makes the decline so obviously apparent as the US resorting to fatwah-esque sanctions, military threats and bizarre legal distortions in the attempt to make China’s and Russia’s rise shallower.

    That’s it in a nutshell, E…

    The sanctions are a symptom of desperation…it’s all about unfair competition…ie the US trying to pressure Germany to buy its much more expensive LNG, than to have gas piped in from neighboring Russia…

    Here’s the situation in the civil aircraft industry…we’ve discussed at length the Boeing MAX catastrophe…and as events have continued to unfold, it is a certainty that this airplane is dead in the water…

    We also discussed the new Russian competitor, the Irkut MC21 and how Boeing, if they had half a brain would have licensed that airplane like Airbus did with the smaller C Series from Canadian Bombardier, now called the A220 [which Boeing together with their nutbars in DC tried to bury…at one point slapping a 200 percent tariff on the Canadian plane…until Bombardier folded and sold half interest to Airbus…]

    Partnering on the MC21 would have been the obvious, smart thing to do…a brand new cutting edge airplane ready to go…

    Instead, Boeing decided to ‘update’ the 50 year old 737 design…and when adding those large diameter new engines made the aircraft inherently unstable…then cobbled together a jury rigged software band aid that was so outrageously faulty that it caused two crashes in the space of six months…a historic engineering failure that is exceeded only by the three crashes [in the space of a year] of the very first jetliner, the de Havilland Comet…[which then disappeared from history…]

    At the same time, the US last fall decided to do everything it can to hamper the MC21’s progress [it’s now in certification flight test]…the US has cut supply of carbon fiber materials to the MC21…and even forced the Japs to do the same…talk about stupid…it took the Russian industry only a few months to ramp up its own substitutes…and now the Russians are busy developing domestic substitutes for each and every foreign supplied component on the airplane…this will also allow the Russians to sell the plane to the Iranians and other sanctioned countries…

    Remember the $100 billion order the Iranians placed with Airbus and Boeing a couple of years ago [200 aircraft] after the nuclear deal was reached and sanctions to be lifted…well not one airplane has been delivered…nor will any ever be…in a couple of years the all-Russian MC21 will start delivery and will feast on all the opportunities created by the sanctions mullahs in DC…not to mention those 5000 orders for the MAX…now probably toast, unless Boeing can convince people to climb aboard this airplane…good luck with that…[first they have to get past the pilot unions, which are looking at Boeing in a whole new light…]

    We see here a perfect case study in one of the world’s key industries, aircraft manufacturing…not only has Boeing been exposed as a shell of its former engineering prestige…but the political nutcases are digging the hole even deeper…a perfect illustration of everything that’s wrong with the US in 2019…a combination of corporate geed run amok…and self defeating trade and diplomatic blunders one after another…

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Erebus
    , @Crimean refugee
  378. FB says: • Website
    @Lo

    You’re quite the idiot aren’t you…and you certainly enjoy losing…I’ve been seeing your diarrhea sprayed with abandon here on this thread, and you have not made one winning argument…most of the commenters that have responded to your bullshit have torn you a new asshole…[with which you are now able to rip with even more abandon…]

    As to your BS about ‘training’ for the ICPC…if there are resources and study methods available, then the US colleges can take advantage of same…it’s a level playing field…your whining is not an argument…anymore than a wet fart is an expressionist painting…

    • Replies: @Lo
  379. denk says:
    @Lo

    At this point, it should be common knowledge that anything coming out of the 5lairs ought to be taken with
    a huge pinch of salt.

    Yet you swallow that Huawei spy chip B.S. hook, line and sinker !

    LIke I say,
    If Huawei is such a ‘security threat’, Trump’s handlers wouldnt ask him to use it as a bargain chip to force a Chinese surrender on trade.
    Elementary , Watson.

    I am open with my intentions, so there is no Freudian slip

    Yet Im rather dismayed you dont seem the least disturbed that Trump, the ‘leader of the free world’ , is openly extorting the govn of another sovereign state. !

    ‘If you don’t want such treatment, then tell your government to not put backdoors on the hardware and software Chinese companies make’

    Another B.S. !
    The only confirmed backdoors were found on CISCO kits !

    YOur govn…

    Wrong again !
    Im not a Chinese citizen. 😉

    • Replies: @Lo
  380. Ron Unz says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I recall that you have minimised the events of 1989 still referred to generally as the Tiananmen Square Massacre as amounting to almost nothing so I would be interested in how you would attempt to refute the opposite picture here

    30 Years After Tiananmen, a Chinese Military Insider Warns: Never Forget

    Actually, I’ve been reasonably sure for the last few years that the “Tiananmen Square Massacre” was really just a MSM Hoax…

    Certainly there was a lot of violent rioting in other parts of Beijing and numerous residents and soldiers were surely killed. But contrary to 100% of the MSM reporting, the students occupying Tiananmen Square itself all left peacefully and none of them were killed. Basically, the MSM got the story wrong at the time and was too embarrassed to correct it during the decades that followed.

    If you won’t believe me, here’s a link to a 1998 story published in the prestigious Columbia Journalism Review by the first Beijing Bureau chief of the Washington Post, who was there at the time:

    https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php

    Offhand, I just can’t see why he would lie…

    Meanwhile, the fact that the NYT just ran a big front-page story trying to revive the hoax should make sensible people more and more suspicious of everything they write…

    • Agree: FB
  381. Lo says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Lol wow, you’re amazing, how did you know so much merchandise comes from China? Did I say anything contrary to what you said, or in other word does what you say contradict my argument? I think you have trouble understanding what is being said, go back to your lab and continue writing 3rd rate papers.

  382. Vidi says:
    @Lo

    I know who Konrad Zuse is, perhaps you should mention abacus instead as it is thousands of years older and invented in China.

    Konrad Zuse invented the programmable computer.

    You are getting more and more desperate to find something and are already beyond your depth.

    You don’t know about the significance of the programmable computer? Who is out of his depth?

    • Replies: @Lo
  383. Lo says:
    @FB

    I’ve been seeing your diarrhea sprayed with abandon here on this thread, and you have not made one winning argument

    Quite the contrary, no one has responded with a single good argument. Best you guys do is pick the least important / most opinion based bits here and there and ignore the other 90% of facts that I presented.

    As to your BS about ‘training’ for the ICPC…if there are resources and study methods available, then the US colleges can take advantage of same…

    LMAO, the stupidity in this thread is going beyond incredible. The author cannot read a simple bar graph, another one cannot divide two numbers, another one points Konrad Zuse as if he’s some obscure figure and so on. And now this? Hahaha, you made my day stranger. My whole point is that not every nation takes these competitions as seriously as Chinese or Russians (you know, kind of people who think sending males to compete against females in Olympics is worth it!), and people are oriented towards solving real problems.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  384. Lo says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    It is a democracy with Chinese characteristics. You are free to vote or not vote for CCP. It is the world first single-party democracy, following the roadmap chairman Mao created after the Cultural Revolution that destroyed Chinese culture.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Godfree Roberts
  385. Lo says:
    @denk

    Firstly, what the hell is five lairs? Do you mean five eyes? See, this is the sort of language that made me think you’re Chinese. My apologies, it turns out you just sound Chinese.

    If Huawei is such a ‘security threat’, Trump’s handlers wouldnt ask him to use it as a bargain chip to force a Chinese surrender on trade.

    It is a winning negotiation strategy. Regardless of how China responds, they either are forced to accept a small Huawei or lose face by accepting a trade deal. It didn’t have to come to this point. It is disastrous mistakes of CCP that brought things here.

    Yet Im rather dismayed you dont seem the least disturbed that Trump, the ‘leader of the free world’ , is openly extorting the govn of another sovereign state. !

    I am not disturbed and I don’t care about slogans. Is the US bullying China? Sure. Is China a bully? Absolutely. They are just getting the treatment they were seeking. Bullying their neighbors, bullying companies that want to do business there, bullying minorities, and cyberbullying the US.

    The only confirmed backdoors were found on CISCO kits !

    Not everything will be confirmed publicly. If Amazon says its servers are infiltrated they lose billions. Besides, most people would prefer a known threat over an unknown. The surveillance state is a threat in the West, but at least there are other factors protecting people. Rather be tracked by a troubled democracy than an authoritarian/Orwellian government.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
  386. Erebus says:
    @Lo

    Quite the contrary, building an OS at this point is not the biggest challenge for a few hundred millions of dollars they can build an OS.

    Hongmeng (aka Ark OS) has been ready since Jan 2018, and will be rolled out later this year in China and in 2020 internationally, so that’s done. Now that Google et al have cut ties with Huawei, they’re free to run with it.

    … why would any sane company or programmer outside China develop for Huawei?

    Because the world is a bigger place than the US, and it’s chock full of non-Americans. Once Hongmeng rolls out, people will buy the phones because they’re happy with the quality/price. If the OS is reasonably familiar and bug-free, the international buying public will buy. Yes, the US market is a biggie, but it ain’t everything, and if China retaliates against Apple and Android, the hit will be far more telling.

    … anything China produces can be produced elsewhere (including the US) and new markets can be developed.

    Given what Tim Cook says @#314, imagine if the gloves came off and China told Apple they’ll have to buy elsewhere and decreed that every phone made/sold in China has to run Ark OS. Samsung etc would switch fast enough, but Apple & Android would be in a world of hurt. It takes years and decades to build the infrastructure and skills Tim Cook is talking about. As his predecessor Steve Jobs told Obama, “Those jobs aren’t coming back”.

    If Huawei is smart, they won’t bloat the OS with all kinds of crap you can’t get rid of, along with the 100% guarantee that your phone is spying on you, and they’ll license it to China’s Vivo, Oppo, etc to make their own variants which pretty much guarantees that developers will dive in the pool.

    Huawei saw this coming, and given their history of success have doubtless gamed the current situation out to an extent the Americans are unprepared for. Likely, to the same extent that the USM failed to prepare for Russian and Chinese asymmetrical strategies and now finds itself hamstrung.

    BTW, I know 2 young Russians who have been teaching at one of Huawei’s “campuses” in Shenzhen for a couple of years now. They say that they have quite a few foreign students, and that they teach exclusively in English. Huawei knew app development is what it’s all about, and they’ve been seeding the bed for some time. The number of developers will grow with the spread of the OS.

  387. Erebus says:
    @Lo

    It is a democracy with Chinese characteristics. You are free to vote or not vote for CCP.

    That shows your profound ignorance of the Chinese system. The Chinese vote almost daily on 100s of initiatives that shape the Party. The CCP’s grassroots’ job is to tell it what the people want the CCP to be and they want it to do.

    Look at the CCP, not as a political party, but as a way of government. The CCP is full of competing ideas and groups that vie to influence policy. Godfree did a very good job explicating how it works in his “Selling Democracy to China” article here on Unz. Look it up. Learn something.

    • Replies: @Lo
  388. Lo says:
    @Vidi

    Okay, I would normally laugh if someone said this after I said I know who Konrad Zuse is, but it started getting sad and I can no longer laugh. Let’s end it here, you are right.

  389. Vidi says:
    @Lo

    Is that why they are losing their minds and now decided to sue the US government in the US lol.

    Suing may actually be more expensive than developing a new operating system. By suing, Huawei is probably trying to force the government to prove its case. The company probably just wants justice (I know, it’s a faint hope in the land of the “rules-based” order).

    Quite the contrary, building an OS at this point is not the biggest challenge for a few hundred millions of dollars they can build an OS. The challenge is convincing people to develop for the OS. No developers outside China would bother developing for Huawei, why should they?

    Plenty of developers will want to write for Huawei’s new operating system, if there’s a good chance they could have millions of potential customers. Huawei should be able to arrange that. Thus HongMeng (or whatever China’s new operating system will be called) will be very successful.

    Android may continue in the US (Huawei has almost zero market share there), but the US is like only 15% of the global smartphone market by revenue (link; no numbers provided unless you subscribe, but you can measure the bars in the graph). The rest of the world will ignore the little ghetto. In the long run, Android will fade to a niche operating system.

    • Agree: Erebus
    • Replies: @eah
  390. Vidi says:
    @FB

    Thanks for the info. (My Agree button isn’t working yet.)

  391. denk says:

    ‘cyberbullying the US.’

    YOur proof is…..?

    • Replies: @Lo
  392. denk says:

    lo 392
    ‘The surveillance state is a threat in the West, but at least there are other factors protecting people’
    [all buttons not working]

    YOu mean when CIA fingered merikkan citizens
    to be liquidated by Washington’s dictators buddies ?

    https://archive.commondreams.org/view/022500-104.htm

  393. Lo says:
    @Erebus

    Your opinions on single-party democracy aside, I read the article, I filter the information and look at it from a different perspective, overall Mr. Roberts does an excellent job. I believe he received his Ph.D. from Amherst and appears to be an entrepreneurial individual who enjoys challenging his intellectual limits despite his age. He is doing a great service. Glad you are also enjoying articles.

  394. Lo says:
    @denk

    In the pudding.

    • Replies: @denk
  395. Erebus says:
    @FB

    …we’ve discussed at length the Boeing MAX catastrophe…and as events have continued to unfold, it is a certainty that this airplane is dead in the water…

    Yes, the 737MAX was 70% of Boeing’s civilian order book, and Boeing’s shareholders should be hanging the Board and top 2 or 3 layers of management from lampposts. The only way it flies again is if the US plays its only card again – namely, sanctions. Otherwise, nobody would buy it.

    What happened to the MAX is what happened across the US’ aerospace and military engineering spectrum. That’s flagship stuff, and the US has come up with dud after dud when they’ve managed to come up with anything at all. From “combat ships” that can’t defend themselves, to AD systems that can defend only themselves, to hitching rides from the Russians to get to the ISS. It’s all of a piece, and that’s cascaded down into the development of everyday “hi-tech” as Tim Cook talks about. The skills and vocational/industrial infrastructure that made America great went poof, and it was gone.

    …and now the Russians are busy developing domestic substitutes for each and every foreign supplied component on the airplane…

    I’ve heard a few Westerners chortling about how the MC21 uses Western flight control and avionics systems. Of course, the Russians did this to ensure familiarity and “comfort” across international markets. As if the guys who did the avionics for Sukhois and MIGs couldn’t handle the job of designing the controls for a lumbering passenger bus. They wouldn’t need to do much more than disable most of what they’ve already done.

    Doubtless an all-Russian system is sitting on the shelf, ready to go.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Vidi
  396. FB says: • Website
    @Godfree Roberts

    Jet engines is one of the few areas in which China lags Russia and the US, true, but we still can’t build a decent rocket engine.

    This is basically correct, but it needs some filling out…

    First, China concentrated on the top strategic priorities first…ie rocketry, which is key to strategic weapons like ICBMs…while combat aircraft are almost exclusively a tactical class of weapons systems…you can’t do everything at once…first things first…

    Now for some technicalities that may prove useful to this discussion…the heart of every rocket engine is basically a jet engine…namely the turbopump that supplies the fuel and oxidizer to the main combustion chamber, under the high pressure required…

    Both a jet engine and a turbopump are gas turbines…so if you can build a good turbopump, you should be able to build a good jet engine…building a really good turbopump is actually a lot harder…that’s why the US lags behind Russia in high performance rocket engines…they have never mastered some of the finer points, like metallurgy…a basic, but extremely complex science…

    Now here is the thing when we talk about modern ‘jet’ engines…they are not actually a pure ‘jet’ engine [turbojet]…where the propulsive force comes only from the expanding, high speed gas in the engine nozzle…instead, today’s aircraft engines are turbofans [first pioneered by Soviet designer Arkhip Lyulka, who was issued the first such patent in 1942]…

    Turbofans also produce shaft power just like a turbopump, but instead of using that shaft power to drive a pump, the turbofan drives a fan at the front of the engine, whose airflow bypasses the engine core…the result is thrust that comes from both the core ‘jet’ exhaust, and the cold bypass air…

    Now this new arrangement is beneficial in flight regimes below supersonic where combat aircraft spend most of their time…even fighter jets…the pure turbojet actually works better at very high speeds above about Mach 2, where no modern combat jet is designed to operate for very long [with the exception of the Mikoyan MiG31]…

    But it also makes things more complicated…for instance, one of the key technologies is the engine controller, which measures the amount of fuel to deliver to the combustion chamber under varying atmospheric conditions and engine load…today these are digital computers [with multiple redundancy]…known as FADEC, for full authority digital engine control…

    The Chinese have been buying Russian aircraft engines for many years and have been trying to reverse engineer them…after 20 years of trying to crack the code on Russian FADECs they have finally given up and decided to make their own…they also offered to buy this but Russia refused to sell one of its crown jewels…

    So that’s one technical nut still to crack…another is metallurgy [again]…specifically to jet engines, the metallurgy requirements are different to those of the turbopump…a jet engine’s efficiency is largely a function of the maximum temperatures it can sustain…so if you want to compare engines, maximum turbine inlet temperature is a very useful yardstick…the latest and most advanced combat engines are about 2,000 kelvin, which is about 1,700 Celsius…

    There are basically two technologies that make these kinds of temperatures possible [near the melting point of even the most advanced alloys]…the first is the ability to make turbine blades where the metal grain is perfectly aligned, with no gaps or discontinuities…this is called ‘single crystal’ metallurgy, since the entire piece consists of a perfect crystalline structure…

    The second is internal cooling of the blades…where air is diverted from the engine compressor section up front, and flows through intricate internal passages in the turbine blade…this is a matter of understanding fluid flow and heat transfer…two extremely vital, but incredibly nuanced disciplines, about which much is yet being learned…for instance turbulent flow is still one of the great unsolved problems in physics, for which no theoretical framework has yet been devised…

    When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first.

    —Werner Heisenberg

    ..So both of these processes are all about know how…

    It has taken the West and Russia a lot of time…decades…to perfect this know how…it is an incremental learning process…there are no shortcuts…

    Now here is what I can say from experience about this…institutional memory is hugely important…ie you need an environment of continuity of knowledge…where one generation of scientists and engineers passes on its knowledge to the next…otherwise you end up trying to reinvent the wheel each time…

    That’s one thing I have seen with my Russian colleagues…they will pull out an old idea and dust it off, because it wasn’t practical at the time…the required tools and technologies just didn’t exist…but now those tools are here…so that great old idea is implemented…

    This is why a culture of continuity is so hugely important…of course this is not compatible with practices like cost-cutting…laying off engineers to fatten up shareholders etc…if you are going to have a garden you have to cultivate it…

    This was one of the huge advantages of the Soviet system, and why they are still the leader in key aerospace technologies like hypersonics and scramjet engines…even the collapse of the political state and the rough times that followed has not been able to kill that…and that culture of continuity is still pervasive in the aerospace industry…due to government support for the right people…scientists, engineers and institutions…not shareholders and investors…

    Socialist China has that very same approach…only even stronger than today’s quasi capitalist Russia…it’s only a matter of time… I have a feeling once the Chinese get rolling they’re going to pull ahead spectacularly…like Secretariat down the stretch…

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Vidi
  397. @Ron Unz

    By chance I have just attended a lunch where one of the speakers on their collections was an ((Anglo) Australian woman who, I gather, first moved to Homg Kong in 1972 with her Chinese husband. I asked what she (thought) she knew of the Tiananmen Square incident and she said that they had watched it in real time in HK and that the CCP had been trying to bury it ever since. When she spoke of tanks driving baxk and forth over bodies to crush them I asked if she had seen that on TV but, no, it was what a friend or acquaintance who had allegedly been there described.

    As UR has done much to inoculate me against NYT misdirection I am not compelled to believe the 30th anniversary article but it is perhaps worth posing questions arising from the almost compelling circumstantial detail of generals (and others) not wanting to take violent action against the demonstrators but being overruled by ruthless old Deng Xiaping (whose reported attitude seems quite consistent with everything known about him). If all that is false would not be falsehoods generated within the NYT but by…. who, what? (The NYT I presume has no particular line it wants to run and sustain on China, and in particur Tiananmen Sq, and no reason to devote resources to it for 30 years rather than run a good front page story because that is what newspapers do).

    I suppose your conclusion that the credibility of the NYT is destroyed by running such a hoax story doesn’t depend on it being a conscious part of a propaganda line. It suffices that the NYT falls for a discoverable hoax. I haven’t read enough yet to be fully convinced that the truth is that nothing much happened and practically no one was killed (or “disappeared”). Obviously the CCP is no more truthful than American propagandists, and not given to holding. credible public inquiries. On the other hand unless the army conducted a remarkably ruthless campaign of surrounding the demonstrators so that they could be exterminated it hardly seems likely that most of the demonstrators would hang around to be killed. Pure logic can even suggest that running over the bodies of those already killed was actually a pretty good way of terrorising the rest so that they removed themselves from the square.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @FB
  398. eah says:
    @Vidi

    Plenty of developers will want to write for Huawei’s new operating system,…

    There isn’t any reason to ‘write a new operating system’ — the truly essential parts of Android (embedded Linux kernel, extensive APIs and libraries for access to telecom voice and data services, as well as for UI development), are free and open source — their use by Huawei and all other companies is governed by the typical open source license terms: all changes and improvements should be shared/pushed back to the open source community.

    The recent restrictions cover only updates to certain proprietary Google apps and services normally/often part of Android/available on an Android-based smartphone, eg Google Play etc — how dependent Huawei or its customers are on these (basically optional) proprietary components provided by Google is another question — but Huawei already has all essential components of the Android OS, and will continue to have access to these in the future.

    • Agree: Vidi
  399. @Lo

    This just in. Global handset sales through 1Q 2019:

    Huawei rises 40% YOY.

    Apple falls 17% YOY.

    Analysts expect Huawei’s 5G handset sales to boost whole year sales to the same degree, Apple sales continue to fall.

    Btw, Tim Cook himself says there is currently no alternative to China for handset production because labor quality and productivity is so high.

    • Replies: @eah
    , @Vidi
  400. @Lo

    The US is also a single-party democracy and its citizens are free to vote or not vote for Capitalism.

    The fabricated partisan divide in the US is a tool essential for the maintenance and reproduction of doctrinal purity, because it helps to ensure that one or the other party will always shoulder the responsibility for empire, and for the continuing mystification of doctrine. The struggle facing the left is about how to detach (momentarily) popular social movements from either an unquestioning commitment to US dominance, or to at least discontinue their silent consent with empire. For some on the right, there is likewise a continuing problem of how to disentangle nationalism from exceptionalism, to rescue the republic and take the US off its imperial path. While this book is mostly written from the left, and probably for the left, it can sometimes travel over the obstacles put in the path of critical reason and which help to legitimize the partisan divide.

    The Chinese Communist Party, 中共, is not a political party as we think of parties. Its ninety-million civic leaders responsible for preserving China’s culture, and barely two percent of its members work for the government.

    Far from benefiting[1] financially, they contribute a billion dollars in annual dues and billions of volunteer hours because they’re sworn to ‘bear the people’s hardships first and enjoy the fruits last’. The results of their efforts in the century since the Party’s foundation suggest that they have done so.

    Calling 中共 a ‘party’ is fine but, if we call Republicans and Democrats ‘parties’ too, we’re equivocating: using the word in different senses to infer that China is a one party state and we’re not.

    We, the US, are a one-party state because the alternative to a one party state is not a two-party state but civil war. That’s why all governing elites espouse one economic doctrine, regardless of whether they permit factions within it.

    Our capitalist party embraces the doctrine of capitalism even more fervently than China’s espouses socialism but, while they doesn’t tolerate factions in government, ours does. That was almost America’s undoing because the Civil War was caused by factionalism and is undoing America again today. It was China’s undoing, too, twice, but they learned their lesson and have forbidden factionalism ever since. We may need another civil war before we change our ways.

    And, btw, the Cultural Revolution, far from destroying China’s civilization (an impossible task that we, the Japanese and the Mongols have failed at) has doubled its strength. I’ve explained why here: http://www.unz.com/article/the-great-proletarian-cultural-revolution/

    [1] Economic Returns to Communist Party Membership: Evidence from Urban Chinese Twins. Hongbin Li Pak Wai Liu Junsen Zhang Ning Ma. The Economic Journal. Vol. 117.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @eah
    , @Lo
  401. @FB

    Thank you for explaining that!!

    • LOL: eah
    • Replies: @eah
  402. @Wizard of Oz

    There was no such broadcast. Your HK friend may have seen a clever BBC program, still available on YouTube, featuring a woman broadcaster and, in the background, the sound of shots being fired. The woman paints a word-picture of a massacre to accompany the sound-effects. Very skillful but utterly bogus.

    Like the BBC, the NYT definitely has a particular line it wants to run and sustain on China and both have sustained that narrative for seventy years: China bad, Communists evil, shock, horror!

    It is the same message all Western media have run, relentlessly, for generations, effectively multi-sourcing the same Big Lie.

    So it’s understandable that you’d think the NYT I presume has no particular line it wants to run that’s different from other media. They all run the same line with local flavoring so, when we read the same narrative in Sweden and Southhampton, we assume that it must be true. If there’s one place we achieved full spectrum dominance, it’s in global media but the Internet is making that harder each year, hence the ‘false news’ panic.

    I’ve documented the roles of the US and UK governments in Tiananmen, and their media here: http://www.unz.com/article/tiananmen-square-1989-revisited/

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  403. FB says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz

    The NYT I presume has no particular line it wants to run and sustain on China, and in particur [sic] Tiananmen Sq…

    You’ve got to be the dumbest guy on UNZ…

    The NYT has no agenda on China…?

    Neither does the NYT have an agenda on Assad and fake chemical weapons actually staged by CIA supported terrorists and MI6 created terrorist ‘white helmets’…

    Neither does the NYT have an agenda on non-existent Russian meddling in American ‘democracy’…

    Neither does the NYT have an agenda on the fairy tale about Gaddaffi getting ready to slaughter the entire country…

    Neither does the NYT have an agenda about Saddam’s WMD…

    Neither does the NYT have an agenda with Kosovar ‘freedom fighters’ who happened to be on the US terrorist list even in 1999…and then proceeded to prove that by becoming ISIS’ ‘most fertile recruiting ground 20 years later…

    You know, I have an idea for a movie along the lines of Forrest Gump…where an unfortunately retarded man, Blizzard of Schnozz…goes through life taken advantage of by those with superior intelligence…

    • LOL: Erebus, Vidi
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AnonFromTN
  404. FB says: • Website
    @Godfree Roberts

    Excellent comment…

    I will just point to another great resource…

    The Unknown Cultural Revolution: Life and Change in a Chinese Village

    By Dongping Han, who grew up in rural China during this time, and is now history professor in the US…

    Also on the Saker blog, Iranian writer Ramin Mazaheri has drafted a wonderful series of essays on the subject…A necessary revolution…and interpolating the ideas of the Cultural Revolution with socialist Iran…which is crudely and completely mistakenly propagated in the west as a so called ‘theocracy…’

    Let’s also recall ‘The Great Socialist People’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya’ which Gaddaffi made into a prosperous country with a living standard comparable to many European countries…and social benefits in key areas like education, right to work…etc, that would make many Scandinavians envious…and look at how wonderful life is now under the west’s bomb-imposed ‘democracy…’

    But of course the deluded right wingers in the US [as seen on this board]…know that socialism ‘doesn’t work…’

    I often think about how the Soviet Union could have greatly benefited by following China’s path…for instance, a similar cultural revolution was required by the time Stalin passed…the system, after making huge gains in living standards, and even bigger gains in education, science and technology, was clearly becoming sclerotic…and the elite ever more distant from the public…the clown Khruschov only moved the country ever more swiftly in this direction of ‘factionalism’ as you so perfectly describe such a corrosive political dynamic…Stalin and his great achievements began to be attacked, while the elite grew ever more distant and corrupt…

    If only there was a man of Mao’s wisdom to apply the needed course correction, as he did in China by making the administrators, especially in the rural hinterlands, more accountable and responsive to the people……and making an example of those veering toward corruption…

    After Mao, China again made a vital course correction by introducing free enterprise for the people, again benefiting most the masses of street level entrepreneurs and small farmers…who by this time had the required foundations of literacy and at least a basic social and physical infrastructure to build on…

    These course corrections are vital to the evolution of a society…as it grows and changes with time, new and more suitable ways of doing things are required…ie reforms…

    This will of course never happen in the US for precisely the reason you put your finger on…

    For some on the right, there is likewise a continuing problem of how to disentangle nationalism from exceptionalism, to rescue the republic and take the US off its imperial path.

    Judging by the utter nonsense spouted here so vehemently by fully indoctrinated fools, this will never happen…meanwhile exactly that kind of rational thinking is happening elsewhere…Italy being the shining example, where a populist right, Salvini’s Lega party, has found common cause with similarly fed up people on the left and the Five Star party…I’ll never forget how the country’s figurehead president, an appointed apparatchik, defied the country’s constitution and tried to block this coalition from forming a government…a perfect instance of the mask coming off…as a puppet of the failing western postwar system makes a last gasp effort to thwart the will of the people…

    Now the Italian people have taken the wheel…and are giving the empire the finger as they wave arriva derci…

    Will this happen in the US…?…just look at the whackadoodles on this thread…there’s your answer…LOL

  405. Erebus says:

    The US’ sanction strategy seems to have been designed to split the world’s institutional framework into belligerent camps.

    Now, even the IEEE is involved. Soon, scientists at one of the world’s largest, and fastest growing, electronics companies will be barred from reviewing technical papers.

    The New York City–based Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) told editors of its roughly 200 journals yesterday that it feared “severe legal implications” from continuing to use Huawei scientists as reviewers in vetting technical papers. They can continue to serve on IEEE editorial boards, according to the memo, but “cannot handle any papers” until the sanctions are lifted.

    How that helps America is beyond me. Petty vindictiveness, if not a form of madness is at work here. There’s an inevitability about this spiral that gives me vertigo.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Lo
  406. Anon[219] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    Why take so many words to confirm that you are a fool. Apparently you want to say that the NYT has a particular line that it wants to run on China (though Godfree Roberts has just disagreed with you, suggesting it is not the NYT but global media line. What has that got to do with a line on Assad or anything else but the specifics of the Tiananmen events?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  407. @Godfree Roberts

    Australia’s longest serving and most successful Labor Prime Minister, Bob Hawke has just died and TV has been showing quite a lot of his career highlights.. one of the clips was of an almost tearful Hawke lamenting the events in Tiananmen Square and announcing that some tens of thousands of Chinese students in Australia would be allowed to stay. To the best of my knowledge Hawke never took a different line on those events. It is almost 100 per cent sure that he would be acting on advice from Australian diplomats in Beijing. Were they all just watching BBC TV’s allegedly fabricated broadcasts?

  408. @FB

    Neither does the NYT have an agenda on non-existent Russian meddling in American ‘democracy’…

    Little correction: not only the meddling was non-existent, the “democracy” is non-existent, as well.

  409. @Anon

    It’s the agenda of NYT and other MSM because it’s the agenda of shameless greedy globalists who own all these lying MSM. The agenda is anti-Chinese because, while the Empire and its vassals are subservient, China, Russia, Iran, Syria, Venezuela, and a few other countries do not toe the globalist line. Globalists and their MSM are furious, primarily because deep down they are aware that they are impotent. Times change, so there is hope for humanity.

  410. @Wizard of Oz

    Does it matter whether they are genuinely gullible or are wholly owned by the same globalists who own lying MSM? The net result is the same.

  411. eah says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Dude, the only reason you embraced that comment at face value is that it reinforces your very obvious existing biases: ‘Yeah you’re right, the Chinese could have done it, but it’s a question of priorities’ (don’t you know) — it’s obviously a subject you know nothing about personally.

  412. eah says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    vote for Capitalism

    I agree that the US is (sadly) more or less a “single-party democracy” — but there’s nothing wrong per se with capitalism — the problem with capitalism (as practiced in the US) is that the US has a huge and growing population of NAMs (principally Blacks and Hispanics) who will never, as groups, achieve equal socio-economic status with Whites (and Asians) — this is because the US is, whatever contrary claims you might make, largely meritocratic (affirmative action is still very controversial) — so you get very significant differences in socio-economic status that cross racial/ethnic lines, and this is seen as a kind of social pathology, demanding a state remedy — this is the same issue with crime that you never honestly addressed (your INTERNAL SECURITY graphic) — China does not have this same problem.

    It is really hard to take you seriously.

  413. eah says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    labor quality and productivity is so high

    Is there any other factor that might be involved? — I’m drawing a blank — “LOL”.

    No doubt the manufacturing work done for Apple in China is very good, and this is due in large part to Chinese workers — but the same “quality” and “productivity” could doubtless be achieved in a number of other countries, some with even lower cost structures, eg Vietnam, or maybe Thailand, where large numbers of hard drives are made — but at this point there are also just as doubtless significant ‘barriers to entry’ when considering manufacturing something like an iPhone, and on that kind of scale (tens of millions per quarter) — the iPhone is a high quality product commanding a premium price — looking at iPhone profit margins, there is no reason for Apple to look elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Erebus
  414. denk says:
    @Lo

    but at least there are other factors protecting people

    You mean like when uncle scam let the murderers of merikkan citizens got off
    scot free, just so it could rope in the Indon army to join its anti Chinese posse’ ?

  415. Vidi says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Analysts expect Huawei’s 5G handset sales to boost whole year sales to the same degree, Apple sales continue to fall.

    I don’t know whether 5G will improve Huawei’s profits much this year. But in the next few years, people all over the world will probably upgrade. That should hugely boost Huawei’s smartphone revenues. (And it will also be a good time to thoroughly establish Huawei’s new operating system.) That is another reason I laugh at the people who say the loss of Android will kill Huawei.

  416. denk says:
    @Lo

    Rather be tracked by a troubled democracy than an authoritarian/Orwellian government.

    The united snakes have , since ww2…

    Attacked/invaded hundreds of countries on false pretext,

    Brought down dozens of democratically elected leaders by coups, even assasinatons,

    Killed at least 60 Millions innocent bystanders,

    If that’s ‘democracy’, Im your jesus christ !

    hehehehhe

    • Replies: @Lo
  417. denk says:
    @Lo

    But of course, you’ve no proof.

    The only global surveillance criminal is none other than ‘democratic’ merikka,
    as per Knowden, wiki, Maning.

    *Lots of problem, dont know whether Unz is acting up or my PC.

  418. @FB

    Could you please explain why you consider MC21 a “cutting edge” aircraft?

    From a layman’s perspective it doesn’t seem radical in any way…

    Thank you

    • Replies: @FB
  419. Vidi says:
    @Lo

    Quite the contrary, no one has responded with a single good argument

    Someone who lies about Amazon’s infection by an alleged Huawei hack would not of course hesitate to redefine what “good argument” means.

    Not only did Bloomberg lie about the alleged Chinese spy chips, you added your own fib too: that Huawei was involved. The Bloomberg article (link), though full of fakery, at least did not mention Huawei.

    Given that, why should we believe anything you say?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Lo
  420. Lo says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Policy and government are a lot more than just economics. If things continue on their current trajectories, there will likely be other parties, and they may as well be Communists (actually there is already one). However, even with current parties, there are enough differences in opinions regarding social issues, economy, and foreign policy. You are assuming CCP is benevolent and they will always remain so. History shows absolute power ends up being abused. Which is why democracy is still better than a single party system.

    The fact that the US has issues is not because of democracy, it is because of the complacency of the citizenry. No governance can serve people well if people are not interested in defending their rights. Elites and not so complacent cliques hijack the government and things start going downhill (just like in the US). The difference is, as long as power is not too concentrated people can wake up to defend their rights. That is the fundamental difference. People who live in authoritarian countries do not have that option. Let alone actively challenging the ruling classes, even a criticism of the ruling class can cost one his freedom or worse in such countries. Just look at Ai Wei Wei, if he wasn’t famous maybe he’d be dead by now. What about not so famous dissidents?

    You are basically taking Chinese propaganda as facts and still are able to tell your opinion, no one would arrest you if you preached this on a street or national tv. Same is not true for the average Chinese, they are afraid. They start opening up and criticizing CCP only after they feel safe and out of CCP’s reach. I know from experience. That is why democracy is better, it is not perfect but at least we have a law that is above the governments and it guarantees our basic human rights. The fact that the US has big issues does not mean China is something to look up.

  421. @Vidi

    Why are you surprised? That “Lo” personage is certainly a shill for the same globalist cabal that wholly owns State Department, Bloomberg, and MSM. The last time the truth came from either of these sources is – never.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Vidi
  422. Lo says:
    @denk

    Lol, I am not Christian, do not support useless wars, and think CIA coups are not good for anyone. It still doesn’t mean it is nice to be tracked by an Orwellian state. They can just randomly arrest you and do not have to be responsible at all. That is the difference between the supremacy of law vs. the supremacy of government.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Godfree Roberts
  423. Lo says:
    @Erebus

    That is because some infantile Asian men are trying to be James Bonds, and steal tech secrets:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_the_United_States

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Erebus
  424. Lo says:
    @Vidi

    I never said Huawei installed backdoors. Go, read my post again, after you think you understood it read two times more to make sure you actually do. It seems like you don’t understand sentences unless you read a few times.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  425. peterAUS says:
    @Lo

    Good comment.
    Some minor quibbles:

    …absolute power ends up being abused…

    Almost always, but, sometimes it does work well. Demands a great person. Augustus, for example re “democracy”.

    Disagree with “why democracy is better” because even you said “complacency of the citizenry”.

    Working democracy requires proper citizenry. Not what we are as we speak, in the West. Besides, original democracy, as practised in Athens was something totally different from this…thing.
    Even Founding Father’s notion of democracy has nothing to do with this.
    Keyword “character”. Not intelligence, education, whatever….character.
    Consumer drones/sheeple and proper version of democracy simply don’t go together.

    So, that’s one of points the local assortment of “Anti-West” characters are correct, imho. Hehe…big deal what I, you and all of us think re the real world but anyway.

    I can, actually, imagine a VERY good place to live in, if a TOP person (and his close team) in Russia and/or China were of that special case (Augustus….). The author and his “team” here are totally delusional re China’s system. Some of characters going for the West aren’t much different I am afraid. Delusional I mean. But, if that helps dealing with daily life in our respective “paradises” no harm done.

    • Replies: @Lo
  426. FB says: • Website
    @Crimean refugee

    Well…first of all ‘cutting edge’ doesn’t equal ‘radical’…

    Civil aviation has been for a long time about incremental improvement…the only ‘radical’ jump in technology was the introduction of jet engines…and that was more than 60 years ago…

    A passenger aircraft today needs to be slightly more spacious than its immediate predecessors, and slightly more fuel efficient [because only small improvements are possible at today’s stage of evolution]…the MC21 is measurably better in both those parameters than both the B737 [1960s design] and A320 [1980s design…]

    The two areas where these incremental improvements are realized are better wing aerodynamics and improved engine efficiency…although the latter is part of the engine, not airframe industry…both increase fuel efficiency…

    Some have made a big deal about composite airframes…carbon fiber was touted by Boeing as supposedly delivering 10 percent [or more] weight savings…which never materialized on the all carbon 787, as many of us had predicted…it was pure marketing BS…

    A composite wing could perhaps have some advantage due to smother surface finish, compared to riveted aluminum construction, and hence slightly improved aerodynamics, due to increased laminar flow [as opposed to more ‘draggy’ turbulent flow]…and possibly aerodynamically improved airfoil shapes as well, due to the greater ease of forming a material that starts as cloth and is shaped in molds…

    We see that Boeing has reverted back to aluminum for the fuselage on the new 777x…confirming what we ‘carbon skeptics’ have been saying all along…also composites are far from a ‘proven’ material, like aluminum is…we’ll see how these carbon airframes hold up as they pile on hours and landing-takeoff cycles…

    The MC21 wing is carbon fiber, so by that measure certainly it is a generation ahead of the 737 and 320…the most important thing is safety of course…I’m not going to rehash my comments about the MAX here, about which I’ve written plenty on James Thompson’s MAX threads…but suffice to say that only the three catastrophic Comet failures in the 1950s outstrip this modern day engineering disaster…

    Btw…what exactly is a ‘Crimean refugee’…?

    • Replies: @Crimean refugee
  427. FB says: • Website
    @Lo

    The fact that the US has issues is not because of democracy, it is because of the complacency of the citizenry.

    I thought it was because of the blacks…as your fellow nutbar so ‘coherently’ argued a little upthread…?

    SMFH

    • Replies: @Lo
  428. FB says: • Website
    @Lo

    So help me understand your point Einstein…

    Electrical engineering journals that are publicly published and which anybody can read…are a way for Chinese ‘James Bonds’ to ‘steal’ trade secrets…?

    That makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine…

    SMFH

    • Replies: @Lo
  429. Vidi says:
    @FB

    Thanks, very educational.

  430. Vidi says:
    @Erebus

    Agree. My Agree button was finally working, but I used up today’s allotment.

  431. Lo says:
    @FB

    Lol, this is guilt by association fallacy. Very petty and desperate.

  432. Joe Wong says:
    @FKA Max

    The police in the execution clip does not resemble Chinese police, it is more like the police in one of SE Asia nations. Given the West and Radio Free Asia using the video clips of Tibetian self-immolation in Nepal to incriminate China, it is no surprise the ABC News (Australia) repeats the same dirty trick perjury to incriminate China in the Video.

  433. Erebus says:

    Here’s a link to an article about how iPhones send out your data while you sleep. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/05/28/its-middle-night-do-you-know-who-your-iphone-is-talking/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.903444f60411
    The article’s author finds that his iPhone spewed data surreptitiously at a rate of 1.5GB per month. Using your bandwidth & money to steal your privacy.

    Android is no better. In fact, Google has banned Disconnect (the software that exposed iPhone activity in the above article) for Android from the PlayStore.

    Concerns about what Huawei may be doing seem misplaced.

    • Replies: @FB
  434. Vidi says:
    @Lo

    I never said Huawei installed backdoors. Go, read my post again, after you think you understood it read two times more to make sure you actually do. It seems like you don’t understand sentences unless you read a few times.

    So you lie about your lie? You wrote (link):

    Just recently Amazon was exposed due to backdoors installed by the Chinese supplier on their server hardware.

    You may not actually have used the exact phrase “Huawei installed backdoors” but you sure as hell meant that, Mister Liar.

    • LOL: Lo
  435. Erebus says:
    @Lo

    You clearly have zero notion of what the IEEE is. Had you even heard of it before reading my comment? Did you look into what it is before typing your rubbish?

  436. Vidi says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Why are you surprised? That “Lo” personage is certainly a shill for the same globalist cabal that wholly owns State Department, Bloomberg, and MSM. The last time the truth came from either of these sources is – never.

    Indeed.

  437. Lo says:
    @peterAUS

    Almost always, but, sometimes it does work well. Demands a great person. Augustus, for example re “democracy”.

    Sure it can work more effectively than democracy. When you have Augustus or Lee Kuan Yew, but then more often than not you get Pol Pot, Stalin or Mugabe. It is because most people are not fit to rule, very few people have character and intelligence required to be a benevolent dictator. Not many of those people want to rule, if you have that kind of character and intelligence, you don’t want to be bound by mediocre people and their rules. There are a lot more interesting things to do than telling people what to do next so that they don’t ruin their country. Democracy is basically a more secure form government for the populace. It brings lots of mediocrity, but at least it doesn’t bring maniacs, and when the rare maniac passes through he is contained by other mechanisms.

    Disagree with “why democracy is better” because even you said “complacency of the citizenry”.

    When I was younger, I thought democracy was terrible and inefficient, I thought a great dictator could make everything better without having to wait for the approval. Only as I grew older and started paying more attention to average people instead of great minds only did I understand why it was necessary. Most people, on their own, lack resources to make the right choices before they make mistakes. It leaves us with two options, either we force them to make the right choices or we give them the freedom to make mistakes. Authoritarian, paternalistic states like China follows the first prescription. They follow people’s every step, now even regulating daily lives through social credit policy, consistent with their government style. We let people make mistakes both in their daily lives and in their political choices. If people as a whole elect an idiot, they still have a choice not to elect an idiot the next election, if they make mistakes in daily lives, hopefully, they can correct them later as well. Fundamentally, it boils down to a question of freedom. I agree that many people are not ideal citizens for democracy, but the alternative is restricting their rights, which in turn can restrict our freedoms. It is still better to bear their mistakes sometimes than lose our freedoms 100% of the time.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  438. Lo says:
    @FB

    Papers do not get published before they are approved genius. These journals are not internet comment sections where everything is published in a few minutes. It can take months to years to get your paper published. That is enough time in tech to derive great ideas from a paper, develop patents and get ahead.

    • Replies: @FB
  439. FB says: • Website
    @Erebus

    Smartphones and tablets certainly send every tidbit of your online activities and your physical movements [by way of ‘location’ tracking]…to the Mothership at Fort Meade…also all your personal data of course…

    It’s almost certain that they are able to also record you by means of the device optical and audio sensors…

    These things should be prudently considered facts of life at this point…also Google, Apple and the others have been Santa’s willing little helpers in all of this…I know people who are concerned enough that they simply use an old school cell phone…[they’re getting harder to find…LOL]

    At this point the only saving grace for ordinary folks is that there are too many of us that do very little of interest to anyone…

    Certainly my next phone and tablet will be Huawei…

  440. FB says: • Website
    @Lo

    Like Erebus said, you haven’t the faintest clue about this subject…being a non technical know nothing…so stop impressing us with your spectacular, streaming arcs of diarrhea…

    Anything published in a technical journal that is protectable will only be published AFTER being PATENTED, asshat…

    That’s clear to any professional who has published or patented…publishing first means you lose your right to patent…but you wouldn’t know these things would you…

    • Replies: @Lo
  441. peterAUS says:
    @Lo

    Well…..a rather good comment…..
    One of those rare posts around here actually worth wadding through the rest….. comprising of piles of nonsense with unhealthy lack of civility.

    Especially, IMHO:

    ….very few people have character and intelligence required to be a benevolent dictator. Not many of those people want to rule, if you have that kind of character and intelligence, you don’t want to be bound by mediocre people and their rules. There are a lot more interesting things to do than telling people what to do next so that they don’t ruin their country.

    ..Most people, on their own, lack resources to make the right choices before they make mistakes. It leaves us with two options, either we force them to make the right choices or we give them the freedom to make mistakes.

    …Fundamentally, it boils down to a question of freedom.

    Now, still, there is a catch:nuclear weapons. “Electing” somebody/something who wil do The Launch and worse, by mistake.
    No second chance after making THAT error.

    Conundrum, a?

    • Replies: @Lo
  442. Biff says:
    @Lo

    That is why democracy is better, it is not perfect but at least we have a law that is above the governments and it guarantees our basic human rights.

    Behold – the dumbest thing typed out on the internet to date. Even after the glaring example of Julian Assange as a political whipping boy someone can still vomit dead virtues.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @Lo
  443. Lo says:
    @FB

    Access to research before everyone else is power. If it is a problem for the US, then let it be. I thought the US was terrible, and China wonderful, shouldn’t you be happy if the US shoots itself in the foot? If you don’t want to impressed by diarrhea then don’t lol. It is your problem, not mine.

    • Replies: @FB
  444. Lo says:
    @peterAUS

    Now, still, there is a catch:nuclear weapons. “Electing” somebody/something who wil do The Launch and worse, by mistake.
    No second chance after making THAT error.

    We can always imagine the worst possible case. It is not that easy to launch a nuclear strike though. Besides, anyone can make that error.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  445. Lo says:
    @Biff

    Well, Julian Assange case is not resolved. Regardless of what happens, there will be a trial. If Assange did the same against Russia or China he would be dead by now. And if you think he is unfairly treated you can always start a petition for him and inform people, doing the same would result in solitary confinement or worse in China. Isn’t democracy great? You are even able to post your thoughts and spew your garbage as much as you want and no one knocks your door to arrest you.

  446. denk says:
    @Lo

    American prosecutor, Robert Jackson, Nuremburg trial…
    ‘ clearly stated, a war of aggression “is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.”

    the tribunals would certainly be a farce if the United States failed to apply the Nuremberg standards to itself in the future. ‘

    ———————–

    lol

    ‘I do not support useless wars, and think CIA coups are not good for anyone.’

    lol

    ‘I much prefer unitedsnake with its supremacy of law’

    LOL
    You’r getting more incoherent with each new post,
    Give it a rest, stop embarrassing yourself. !

  447. FB says: • Website
    @Lo

    You’re not making sense…not that you ever did…

    Now that you know a little about how things actually work with technical journals, your statements are shown to be totally ignorant…like Erebus and I have stated…

    There is nothing to be gained from being part of the review process in terms of IP…that’s just nonsensical, for the simple reason I stated…having to do with how the patent process works…

    The question is…how could anyone be so stupid to argue about technical things about which he knows nothing…?

  448. FB says: • Website

    Just a snapshot of the ‘ethos’ of today’s rotten west…

    That’s the South Korean under 18 soccer team ‘celebrating’ yesterday after beating China in the Panda Cup…

    Nice sportsmanship there…another of the team members pretended to urinate in the cup…

    The Chinese public were outraged, understandably…organizers promptly stripped the South Koreans of the title…

    Just another symptom of the disease that is gripping the capitalist west…the polite and gentle people of North Korea are a breath of fresh air compared to these barbarians…

    • LOL: eah, Lo
  449. peterAUS says:
    @Lo

    That was a bit disappointingly short reply.

    I was hoping for something along the lines: the current democracy in the West ain’t working. The “solutions” from Russia and/or China aren’t working too.
    Well, at least for lower 60 (and increasing) percentage of population. “Target” group (heterosexual white males) in particular.

    The “Easterners” are correct in their critique of the West re “democracy”, IMHO.
    The “Westerners” are also correct in their critique of the “East” too.

    A something of a third way, mixture, whatever, is needed, I guess. At least for that group above. If one is member of other group(s) no need to be worried. On the contrary. All looking good there.

    In meantime, while the efforts to even start thinking about that third way are..hehe…underway, we are on the collision course (along this way that is).
    More countries trying to acquire nuclear weapons. Superpowers trusting each other less and less and keeping arming. That, so far in human history, always ended in a decent war.
    Hehe…but this time it will be different because we are much smarter than our ancestors. Now, that’s just funny.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  450. @FB

    Thank you for a detailed explanation. I also read your previous comments on MAX safety here and in other threads. I appreciate your input on avionics and aerospace technologies.

    You said that composite materials (carbon fiber) are pure “marketing BS” – but why did Russians chose to use it with their MC21 design? I was also under impression that RF has a very restricted access to carbon fiber imports due to sanctions…

    Btw…what exactly is a ‘Crimean refugee’…?

    I am a Crimean native and was granted asylum on a basis of persecution by Ukrainian authorities during 2004 Orange Revolution.

    • Replies: @FB
  451. @peterAUS

    “For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”

    ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

    • Agree: FB
  452. FB says: • Website
    @Crimean refugee

    Thanks for explaining…who granted you asylum…I would assume Russia…?

    About carbon fiber…I said the Boeing marketing BS was about the supposedly lighter weight…which many of us with actual knowledge of aerostructures knew was not realistic…we turned out to be 100 percent right…if anything, the all carbon 787 is heavier than it potentially could have been in aluminum…

    Compare the 787 to its aluminum predecessor the 767…

    The 767-400 has a maximum seating capacity of 409 [although it’s legally limited to 375, due to emergency egress regulations]…for a max takeoff weight of 450,000 lb…using the certificate limit of 375 pax, that’s a weight per pax of 1,200 lb…

    The 787-10 has pax capacity of 440 at a max takeoff weight of 560,000 lb…for a weight per pax of 1,272 lb…six percent heavier per passenger…

    The 787-10 has a slightly longer range of 6,430 nautical miles, compared to the 767-400s 5,625 nm…so it carries some more fuel weight…but fueled for the same distance flight the 767 still comes out ahead in weight…although the 787 is a little wider cabin, has newer and more efficient engines and wing…and is overall a nicer airplane…which we expect from every succeeding generation…

    With regards to the MC21 carbon wing…I did mention that carbon does have some advantages for a wing…although weight is probably not one of them…

    I already mentioned the carbon sanctions in a previous comment…there’s nothing new about carbon to the Russian aerospace industry…it’s been used on combat aircraft for a long time…the Russians are very good at materials science…they have simply ramped up production of domestic carbon fiber and the epoxy polymer ‘glue’ that are now being withheld…it is a move that only hurts those western producers that were supplying the Russian market…they can wave bye bye to that market now…

    Sanctions have been a blessing in disguise for Russia…and will be the same for Huawei and other targeted Chinese producers…

    • Replies: @Crimean refugee
  453. Rich says:
    @Ron Unz

    Don’t take this the wrong way way, Mr Unz, you’re doing great work and I sincerely appreciate it, but the fact that this wack job “FB” agrees with you, makes me question your conclusions. This guy, and the Soviet apologist from Tenn, are so blinded by hatred of the USA, that anything they write is suspect. I do appreciate your appreciation of free speech and hope you continue to provide a platform to all the various authors that you do. Great work.

  454. @Wizard of Oz

    Bob Hawke was an effective PM but was not in the same class as Julia Gillard who was, by far, her country’s most effective leader.

    No Australian diplomat , in Beijing of elsewhere, ever even claimed to be a witness to those events. Neither did any American or British diplomat.

    Though it would have served their countries’ agenda to have done so, they didn’t.

    Could this be because they saw–and heard from Chilean diplomats, who did witness them–that they knew there had been no violence?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  455. @eah

    Tim Cook, who was asked this question, disagrees.

    China’s labor force is literally incomparable. A hundred million disciplined, responsible workers all of whom finished school three years ahead of ours? And logistics to back the up?

    This letter, which I’ve published elsewhere in Unz, explains why:

    PISA tests show their high schoolers graduating three years ahead of ours in STEM subjects and add to that their five point IQ advantage and you get a labor force comfortable in the 21st century. A friend, a director-level employee with an engineering background who has worked with multiple multinational companies in various capacities, but has been primarily based in the US sees it this way (his emphasis):

    [MORE]

    Most people don’t realize that the Toyota factory churning out cars has only half of its staff on the manufacturing floor. The other half is engineers and supply chain guys, supervisors etc…. the engineers at these facilities are responsible for fixing daily technical issues and working with R & D. The vast majority of modern manufacturing is done by machines.

    American manufacturing moved to China not because of dumb labor, but because you could hire high IQ people for dirt cheap. If your machine broke down, no problem; some Chinese guy (with basically a masters in EE) would pull out the circuit boards and using probes and other instrumentation determine what board needed replacing and he would work annually for a fraction of the salary of his equivalent in the US.

    Manufacturing in the US is a nightmare: at our facility our only requirement for a assembler was a high school degree, US citizenship, passing a drug and criminal background check and then passing a simple assembly test: looking at an assembly engineering drawing and then putting the components together.

    The vast majority of Americans were unable to complete the assembly test, while for our facility in China they completed it in half the time and 100% of the applicants passed. An assembler position in the US would average maybe 30 interviews a day and get 29 rejections, not to mention all the HR hassles of assemblers walking off shift, excessive lateness, stealing from work, slow work speed and poor attitudes.

    The product line is highly specialized equipment, so it makes no sense to fully automate it, most of the components are assembled by hand and for certain steps we use custom engineered jigs. And for those saying that the position wasn’t paying enough, it paid $12 an hour starting in an area with an extremely low cost of living where property taxes for a 2000 square foot house would be $800-$1000 a year. Assemblers don’t make $150K. An assembler takes parts and puts them together. The position starts at $12 an hour in flyover country which is pretty reasonable compared to other jobs that only require a GED and no prior work experience. Offers medical, dental and annual raises with plenty of opportunity to move up in the company. The national average salary for a Production Assembler is $33,029 in United States, which is what you would be making if you stayed for 5+ years.

    Finding a black or Hispanic capable of passing these simple requirements and passing the assembly test is merely impossible nevermind being competent, punctual and of good moral character (not stealing from company or starting conflicts with coworkers). And these are the main groups that apply for this position. The same exact product line has the same facility in China, and the same positions in China pays the same wages as other positions there with only a high school degree and no work experience. Yet the applicant quality is much higher, and this applies as well to the white collar professions that support the manufacturing: schedulers, quality inspectors, equipment testers and calibrators, engineers, supply chain managers, account managers, sales etc….their labor quality is simply higher. I suspect the blacks and Hispanics are probably too dumb to get affirmative action too dumb to go to college, so they probably average 75 IQ and their Chinese equivalents are probably 95 but the performance gap is massive.

    The equivalent position, with the same requirements is present in all countries, with corresponding wages. There is no shortage of applicants in most countries, but in the US the younger candidates routinely fail the exam while in China they routinely pass. The US has a higher proportion of unfit workers than China. Statistically, people that don’t have college degrees apply to this job (and statistically blacks and Hispanics are less likely to have college degrees so the bulk of applicants are black and Hispanic). Likewise in China, the people who typically apply for these positions are high school grads who failed to score enough on the Gao Kao (China’s version of the SAT) and thus unable to gain acceptance into a university.

    There’s a reason why all the tech CEO’s and high level management employees are convinced they can’t replace China and its not because they want to make more profits. At the end of the day, high-end and middling manufacturing is not moving to either the US or Mexico because the average person in flyover country and Mexico are dumb as rocks. And anyone praising Mexico is not upper management and there is a very good reason why Mexico’s economy stagnated until NAFTA which basically was nothing more than a scam to rebrand things manufactured in other countries ‘Made in Mexico’ and export them to the US to avoid tariffs. If Mexico was a competent country with quality workers the laws of economics would magically reroute supply chains without trade wars, tariffs or free trade agreements and likewise the same applies for every 3rd world sh1thole like India or Somalia.

    Companies choose eastern Europe and China for high IQ, work ethic, competence combined with lower wages.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @eah
  456. @Lo

    ‘the average Chinese, they are afraid. They start opening up and criticizing CCP only after they feel safe and out of CCP’s reach.’

    Nonsense. Harvard’s Gary King says, “Contrary to much research and commentary, the purpose of the censorship program is not to suppress criticism of the State or the Communist Party. Indeed, despite widespread censorship of social critics, we find that when Chinese people write scathing criticisms of their government and its leaders the probability that their post will be censored does not increase. Instead, censored tweets were equally likely to be against the state, for the state, irrelevant, or factual reports about events. Negative, even vitriolic criticism of the state, its leaders and its policies are not more likely to be censored.”

    Individual citizens do not lack opportunities for public criticism. The Constitution is clear, “Citizens have the right to criticize and make suggestions regarding any State organ or official, to make complaints or charges against relevant State organs and expose any State organ or functionary for violation of law or dereliction of duty.”
    This works well when officials are morally exemplary and makes public criticism models a positive alternative. Technology is empowering: citizens text #12388 with their complaints, photographs, videos and documents and post requests for other complainants to come forward. Professional critics, too, are accommodated. Investigative journalist Cui Yongyuan[1] is famous for confronting powerful interests and living to tell the tale. In 2018 he accused the Supreme Court of malfeasance and was proven right and Maria Repnikova[2] finds critical journalism alive and well


    [1] MEET CUI YONGYUAN, CHAT SHOW HOST: CHINA’S UNLIKELIEST WHISTLE-BLOWER (JUST ASK FAN BINGBING). SCMP Jan 26, 2019
    [2] Media Politics in China: Improvising Power under Authoritarianism by Maria Repnikova, C.U.P., July 15, 2017.

  457. @Lo

    ‘They can just randomly arrest you and do not have to be responsible at all. ‘??

    Where are you getting your information? Not from our media, I hope!

  458. @Ron Unz

    Thanks. Catching up with my reading I have now read the Greg Clark piece linked by Erebus and it is convincing.

    http://gregoryclark.net/page15/page15.html

    What a chance the US blew about 1990 to enlist China, particularly, and Russia in running the world. If they had then been respected junior partners (well, treated with respect, and consulted) what a different world we would be enjoying, and how much better off the vast majority of Americans would be.

    • Replies: @FB
  459. @Erebus

    Thanks for the link to Gregory Clark’s piece on the Tiananmen Square incident. It makes balanced sense of what happened. What a shame America has been governed and has affected the world with so little sense of reality (though I don’t think it was till 1999 that I found myself roundly declaring that we were about to enter on the Chinese century).

  460. @Godfree Roberts

    Only one qiibble – but a big one. How can you possibly rank Julia Gillard as a more effective leader than Hawke, Howard or Menzies who served as PM for several terms and had many achievements to their credit. Gillard started with the PM she replaced in a coup undermining her, made the absurd promise “there will be no carbon tax under my prime ministership”, crippled herself by not being able to argue effectively that her measures were not carbon taxes, and then got overthrown before the next election in favour of Rudd whom she had replaced. So…. what’s your alternative version of reality?

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Godfree Roberts
  461. FB says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz

    Catching up with my reading I have now read the Greg Clark piece linked by Erebus and it is convincing.

    Scratch that order for the medium pizza with extra mice and sparrows…?

  462. FB says: • Website
    @Godfree Roberts

    Finding a black or Hispanic capable of passing these simple requirements and passing the assembly test is merely impossible nevermind being competent, punctual and of good moral character…

    Very disappointed to see this…doesn’t reflect reality…

    —Mae Jemison

    —Mission: STS47

    —Time in space: 190 h 30 m

    —physician, engineer, professor

    Charles Bolden

    —Missions: Pilot, STS61C; Pilot, STS31; Mission Commander, STS 45; Mission Commander, STS60

    —Time in space: 28 d 8 h

    12’th Administrator of NASA, 2009-2017

    —Maj. General, United States Marine Corps (Retired)

    There are 12 more African American astronauts that have flown in space…

    Maybe your ‘friend’ didn’t look [or think] very hard before putting on his pointed hat…if the US ‘government of the people’ stopped giving billions upon billions of taxpayer moneys to the likes of King Bezos, maybe they could work on eliminating the undereducated underclass…

    • Replies: @Erebus
  463. Lo says:

    I was hoping for something along the lines: the current democracy in the West ain’t working. The “solutions” from Russia and/or China aren’t working too.

    We know from history that totalitarian states always end up in disasters. Currently, democracy isn’t functioning as well as it should due to multiple reasons. Greedy and/or delusional elites. Entertained, ignorant, consumerist masses who just live, but aren’t conscious. Hostile outsiders and alternative systems are all among reasons. Still, we are talking about principles, not temporary fluctuations. Just because a dictatorship performed well for a while, or a democracy performed poorly for a while doesn’t make dictatorship better. Look, despite being just as smart as British or Americans, Russians are still struggling so are Chinese. They’ve died in millions and millions over the last 100 years even when you factor out wars (due to government engineered disasters). There are also factors such as gravitation towards the mean of international politics. Authoritarian countries like Russia and China are afraid of democratic ideas because they know well that if citizenry gets ideas of involving in government ruling elites would not be able to sustain their power. So they are waging a constant propaganda war against democracies, in return democracies end up with two options, either get weaker or use anti-democratic means to counter the effects of the war.

    Democracy in principle still works. If not enough people are turning up to make it better, it means that for this or that reason they are satisfied. If things go bad enough democratic participation will increase and we can change the government. People in authoritarian countries do not have that option. So they bear with everything until it is unbearable that they don’t care whether they die or live, that’s when they overthrow dictators.

    Well, at least for lower 60 (and increasing) percentage of population. “Target” group (heterosexual white males) in particular.

    What you and a bunch of other guys on this site complaining about is actually something different. Your perceived persecution is not really persecution, rather a disempowerment. These two are different, and disempowerment is not due to a stronger democracy, but rather a weakened one. I’ve always said that none of this nonsense going on is about Blacks, homosexuals, minorities or anti-white conspiracies is because elites really care for these issues. It is all about elites’ fear of losing power. The most threatening social group within the US is white males because they are the most numerous. So all other stupid lemmings are conditioned to hate white males in order to weaken the most likely to cause trouble group. It is as simple as that. The thing is, none of these things will save elites, because this is still a democracy, and that must be understood very well. They will either budge or will be persecuted (or they will manage to turn the US authoritarian, the Zionist clique is after this goal). Already there are signs that they are budging. If they don’t it will not end well for them as long as government style is democratic. This is why it is important to hold onto democracy, and not buy into authoritarian propaganda. If things turn authoritarian, it will only consolidate power in the hands on those who already have power. Then we are all Chinese who can lose everything they have any time government wishes to.

    The “Easterners” are correct in their critique of the West re “democracy”, IMHO.

    The criticism they offer for democracy is not about the principles, but rather the actions of power elites. And the majority of those criticisms are oriented around the US wars in the Middle East. They have no real fundamental arguments other than “the Chinese economy developed so fast, Chinese happy, CCP is great.”

    A something of a third way, mixture, whatever, is needed, I guess.

    It is not a mixture, and it exists. But no good way involves having a parasitic ruling elite. Which is why any third way would suddenly be opposed by corrupt elites everywhere.

    More countries trying to acquire nuclear weapons. Superpowers trusting each other less and less and keeping arming. That, so far in human history, always ended in a decent war.

    The cold war was worse, didn’t end up with war. Wars are not sensible anymore, gains are far less than losses in any major war. Besides, if people are stupid enough to throw nukes on each other, it is only fair if such people are wiped out. I am not the warden of 8 billion people. If they want to kill each other, so be it.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    , @peterAUS
  464. @Ron Unz

    More reading such as lots of Guardian (ugh) coverage, e.g.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/31/tiananmen-square-protests-crackdown-intensifies-as-30th-anniversary-nears

    in all of which the number killed is expressed as hundreds, possibly thousands, which may or may not include the soldiers who died in burned out trucks. The issue seems to have moved on to the CCP’s attempts to control the narrative and indeed ensure history is written to its script. The money put into substantially mythological attempts to add perhaps three thousand years to the supposedly continuous Chinese civilisation might be regarded as no more serious than Himmler’s sponsorship of visits to Tibet to find Aryans or eccentric American billionaires funding Creationists but the aim of shoring up the claims to Taiwan, Tibet and the far West as part of Han China are more consequential and the shoring up of the CCP’s monopoly on power is really not comparable to the chaotic battles in the US to establish one’s partisan version of reality.

    The fear of another typical Chinese period of disorder before the current leaders of the CCP (presumed to be high minded and public spirited) can raise all Chinese to reasonable prosperity is easy to understand as a motive for the repressive social control and censorship they are seeking to enforce. Justifiable? Who knows? Who can know, although perhaps there ought to be some 20 to 40 year rule after which the air has to be cleared by an independent inquiry as a gesture to truth and reconciliation. Australia had an inquiry into the so-called stolen generations of Aborigines in the 90s, and, more recently, several into abuse of children in church and state institutions which apparently made a lot of people feel better – though also probably a material cause of the absurd jury verdict against Cardinal George Pell. Time perhaps for an inquiry to clean up the mental debris of 9/11? USS Liberty no good because it involves Israel and its continuing relationship with the US and, anyway doesn’t rank with Tiananmen Square. But within Israel one would like to think that one day the murders and woundings by IDF snipers’ bullets last year of hundreds of Palestinians inside Gaza would be examined honestly and openly. The Chinese probably remember vividly where Gorbachev’s Glasnost took the CP of the USSR so an honest accounting of the events of 3-4 June 1989 is maybe no more likely than an Israeli orgy of truth telling even though it would be done for Chinese people, not for a Chinese equivalent of Palestinians….

  465. eah says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Dude, you really are one of a kind — what does (that PC faggot) Tim Cook personally know about the quality of Chinese manufacturing labor vs what is available in other countries? — did AAPL organize some kind of worldwide iPhone manufacturing competition where China came out on top? — no, of course not — yours is a classic appeal to authority argument: cite the opinion of some company executive blah blah — fuck off with that bullshit.

    I guess Cook personally did equally extensive and thorough research before deciding the (now largely disgraced and discredited) SPLC was the go-to organization to combat ‘hate’ on the internet — “LOL”.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Godfree Roberts
  466. Erebus says:
    @eah

    … the same “quality” and “productivity” could doubtless be achieved in a number of other countries, some with even lower cost structures…

    The question is not where it could be (there are many places), but where it has already been achieved. Normally, it takes a generation to get there, and that’s assuming an intensive and very well managed vocation-focussed education & training system.

    Just such a system was initiated decades ago and now lies at the heart of China’s economic success. I’m not a policy expert in this field, but I don’t hear of any other country having rolled out a similar program, never mind the intensity with which China rolled out theirs.

    • Replies: @eah
  467. Erebus says:
    @FB

    Very disappointed to see this…doesn’t reflect reality…

    Godfree’s “friend’s” writing sounds more like a rant than the sort of cool assessment one would expect from someone at “director level”.

    Methinks Godfree has done his argument and himself a disservice by quoting him.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @FB
  468. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Lo

    You falsely believe that there is democracy in the USA. There is not. There is dollarocracy and bureaucratic dictatorship supported by propaganda. Uneven distribution of wealth means that those who have insufficient money have no representation – none.

    The money power puts the bureaucrats in place who run things to the satisfaction of the money power. Yes, the average person can complain, but what you do not realize and perhaps the Chinese government does not realize, is that this is the best method of controlling dissent. US propaganda and control are much more sophisticated than their Chinese counterparts

    The complaints of the average person accomplish exactly nothing, but they disarm the complainer who thinks that their complaints have actually made a difference. If complaining is not allowed, the average person will find other more destructive ways to vent the stress caused by their oppressed existence. Let them complain – they blow off steam and go back to work, or drug abuse or whatever it is that they do.

    If the complaining becomes organized and threatens the dollarocracy then the mechanisms of control are subtly ramped up. Facebook accounts are terminated. Twitter accounts are suspended. The media begins to demonize the complainers. Ultimately, the person may be prosecuted on “trumped up” charges (pun intended) Still nothing changes.

    when I was in the Army, I was acquainted with a psychiatrist LTC in the medical corps. We were talking about the after action reports that every soldier was required to file listing what they had learned and what suggestions they had after participating in Operation Desert Storm. I asked him what actions the Army took on those suggestions. None he answered. They file them away immediately an no one ever looks at them. Their intent is to give the troops the impression that the “Leadership” cares about their concerns and wants to act on them.

    The difference between Chinese dictatorship and US dictatorship is that US style dictatorship is more refined.

    • Agree: Biff
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Lo
  469. eah says:
    @Erebus

    I already conceded there is no reason for AAPL to look elsewhere — but the clear implication was that this “quality” and “productivity” can only be achieved in China — in fact, the implication was so clear that I (quite reasonably) regarded it as a statement of fact (from no less an authority than Tim Cook — “LOL”).

    Apparently honesty and reading comprehension are not your strong suits — duly noted.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  470. FB says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz

    Indeed, Blizz…Australia has had some ‘great’ prime ministers…[SMFH]

    The one that really stands out for me is ‘PeterAUS’…fondly remembered as ‘The Potatohead Premier’

    Truly a ‘champion’ of the people…why even in retirement, he continues to be a mighty voice of reason and fount of searing insights into humanity’s most pressing problems…

    Remember that ‘historic’ summit with President Obama…?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  471. FB says: • Website
    @Erebus

    Not to mention that this ‘friend’ thinks $ 12 an hour is a ‘fair’ wage for an assembler in an electronics factory…

    Of course this is what happens when an oligarchy runs the show…labor arbitrage means you can bring in 50 million immigrants [US has 49 M]…and offshore about the same number of jobs…and presto…heaven on earth for the insatiable 0.001 percent…

    What a ‘democracy’…

  472. FB says: • Website
    @The Scalpel

    Well said doc…

    If we define democracy as a ruling system that does the people’s will…then I challenge any ordinary folks to tell me when this has ever happened in living memory…on any single issue…?

    And if we define totalitarianism as a system where a powerful elite exercises complete control of our living and working conditions…and even what ‘truths’ and ‘facts’ we believe in…then the US is the textbook case…

    The indoctrination of Americans is absolutely breathtaking…

  473. @FB

    who granted you asylum…I would assume Russia…?

    correct.

    carbon does have some advantages for a wing

    I believe that carbon wing is a superior design and wanted to clarify what you meant by “marketing BS” statement, thanks for clarifying.
    Russian aerospace engineers are the best on the planet – I suspect MC21 is a stellar aircraft!

  474. Vidi says:
    @eah

    I already conceded there is no reason for AAPL to look elsewhere — but the clear implication was that this “quality” and “productivity” can only be achieved in China — in fact, the implication was so clear that I (quite reasonably) regarded it as a statement of fact (from no less an authority than Tim Cook — “LOL”).

    Sure, other countries have the potential to make goods as well as China does, with similar quality, efficiency, and enormous breadth and depth of capability — just as the American political system has the potential of being quite consistently honest. But is either going to happen? Will you find another country — or even a group of countries — that can make a dizzying variety of products as efficiently as China? Will American politicians stop taking bribes? Not likely in both cases.

    That’s the key. Companies that survive must deal with reality, with probabilities and likelihoods, not with fantasy. Thus Apple makes iPhones in China and not somewhere else.

  475. peterAUS says:
    @Lo

    Russia and China are afraid of democratic ideas because they know well that if citizenry gets ideas of involving in government ruling elites would not be able to sustain their power. So they are waging a constant propaganda war against democracies, in return democracies end up with two options, either get weaker or use anti-democratic means to counter the effects of the war.

    My bold.
    I thought it’s other way around, especially with Russia.
    Anyway.

    Democracy in principle still works. If not enough people are turning up to make it better, it means that for this or that reason they are satisfied. If things go bad enough democratic participation will increase and we can change the government.

    I see.

    Your perceived persecution is not really persecution, rather a disempowerment.

    Erns Zundel and plenty of other people have been…..disempowered.
    O.K.

    …this going on is about Blacks, homosexuals, minorities or anti-white conspiracies..

    Hehe….

    ….all other stupid lemmings are conditioned to hate white males in order to weaken the most likely to cause trouble group. It is as simple as that.

    Stupid lemmings. Conditioned.
    O.K.

    …none of these things will save elites, because this is still a democracy…

    I see.

    …Already there are signs that they are budging.

    There are?
    O.K.

    It is not a mixture, and it exists. But no good way involves having a parasitic ruling elite. Which is why any third way would suddenly be opposed by corrupt elites everywhere.

    It does exist….but it would be opposed by ruling elites…. everywhere.
    O.K.

    ….if people are stupid enough to throw nukes on each other, it is only fair if such people are wiped out. ….If they want to kill each other, so be it.

    O.K.

    Well, I guess we understand each other here.
    All good.

    • Replies: @Lo
  476. Lo says:
    @The Scalpel

    I know all this, except there isn’t dictatorship in the US, there are power cliques that dominate politics that’s all. If people do not know how to organize, and instead go to Facebook & Twitter vent off then they are part of the problem. People should have owned their democracy, they took it granted and parasitic elites now dominate it. Of course, it is an uphill battle to take it back. Who cares if FB bans accounts? You are confusing complaining with taking action, you are even free to complain in China, provided you are stupid and telling stupid things no one cares. When what you said actually matters you don’t just lose your Facebook account, you end up in solitary confinement, exile or disappear altogether.

    Bottom line is, it may be difficult but you are free to organize, act politically and compete in elections. If you don’t like something, and if the majority agrees with you, then it can be changed. It is not an option in China. As far as I can see, things you & others complain about are not real issues for the majority of the population. Either that or despite the fact that they have constitutional rights & share the same concerns as you, they are still too stupid to organize and force change (it is slowly moving forward actually). In my opinion, most people are too comfortable, ignorant or stupid even when they don’t have all these qualities together. They are satisfied with how things are going. The fact you or I don’t like the way things are does not mean majority agrees.

    As I said, sure it is not perfect and there are real problems particularly due to parasitic elites. However, you are legally allowed to claim the government and make changes. That is not even an option in China.

  477. Lo says:
    @peterAUS

    It does exist….but it would be opposed by ruling elites…. everywhere.

    Absolutely. Most people are interested in ruling for power, money or self-aggrandizement. These are the parasitic elites. Even if you proved in absolute terms that you found a new way that would be better for people, without any doubt, they still would not give up their rule. A working Democracy can at least give us the ability to replace parts that are not working every few years, hoping on average we can have something more closely aligned with people’s interests. If people are too careless or stupid, then democracy will gravitate towards oligarchy, it is what’s happening in the US.

    On average it worked well so far, again, just how many millions of Russians and Chinese died because of decisions of their authoritarian leadership? That alone tells us, even a not so great democracy is still better than an average dictatorship, on average.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  478. Erebus says:
    @eah

    … what does (that PC faggot) Tim Cook personally know about the quality of Chinese manufacturing labor vs what is available in other countries?

    Um, are you aware Tim Cook was head of procurement at Apple before he became CEO? Do you have any idea what procurement means at Apple’s level, and that Apple is widely considered to run the most sophisticated supply chain analysis and management system anywhere? That means continuous analysis of everything from political stability, to education, to cultural issues, to demographics, to infrastructure and everything else that impacts the supply side of the business.

    Tim Cook is arguably the world’s pre-eminent procurement professional (PC faggot, or not) and very personally knows the quality of labour in every corner of it.

    So, yeah. If Apple didn’t quite…

    … organize some kind of worldwide iPhone manufacturing competition where China came out on top…

    … they certainly game out 100s of potential locations on a continuous basis.

    Obviously, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

    • Replies: @eah
  479. The scalpel says: • Website
    @Lo

    If you don’t like something, and if the majority agrees with you, then it can be changed.

    I disagree. You have fallen victim to the propaganda. No amount of organizing or majority will counter the will of the money power and bureaucratic dictatorship. Only a violent revolution could do this. Same as in China

    1. The last two Presidents were elected partly because they claimed to be non-interventionist. Obama even won the Nobel Peace Prize! That is not at all what happened

    2. Bernie Sanders was robbed of the Democratic nomination and likely the Presidency

    3. Resolution to Stop supporting war on Yemen

    4. Thorough official investigation into 911

    5. CIA files on Kennedy assassination

    I could go on and on….

  480. eah says:

  481. eah says:
    @Erebus

    If Apple didn’t quite…

    So if AAPL “didn’t quite” do that, then they couldn’t possibly know how manufacturing in other countries compares to China, could they? — yet admitting this simple truth is too much for a dishonest hack like you — fucking unbelievable.

    Note: I’m not saying that China isn’t/would not prove to be better — I have no idea — but neither does AAPL, and neither do you— IMO AAPL could get the same service in a number of other countries (probably at lower cost), eg in Thailand, where most hard disks are made (HD manufacturing is also very demanding: traditional magnetic HDs have precision moving components) — but why bother? — why take the risk? — their profit margins are enormous, and their Chinese manufacturing partners appear to do a great job.

    Tim Cook was head of procurement

    “LOL” — what a clown — look, I don’t know exactly what you mean by “procurement” — or if this word exists in an AAPL org chart, and if so, what it means — but “procurement” normally means buying components — ‘procuring’ the BOM (bill of materials) — optimum pricing, second sources, etc etc — it normally has very little directly to do with manufacturing, ie where and how the components are assembled into the finished product (in this case an iPhone) — so the actual manufacturing is handled by another part of the organization, in combination with QC (quality control or engineering) — people who specialize in handling problems encountered during manufacturing.

    People who work in “procurement” are generally business people — administrators, negotiators — Cook has an MBA — his bio reeks of the business side: “procurement” — in manufacturing and QC you need/find technical people: engineers, problem solvers.

    Obviously, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

    Yeah, sure — even though your entire comment is about “procurement”, which generally, as I’ve just said, has little or nothing directly to do with the engineering aspects of manufacturing, which is the topic, I’m the clueless one.

    I’ve worked in cellular modem/mobile device engineering for 20 years, including very closely with QCOM, AAPL’s main modem supplier — my current employer also has a sizable manufacturing organization, which is largely separate from “procurement” — the head of “procurement” reports up the org chart to the head of finance/accounting, not to anyone in engineering or manufacturing.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  482. @Wizard of Oz

    She was the #1 legislator (and getting legislation passed is the PM’s main responsibility) in a divided government and sustained the longest, most relentless torrent of vilification of any PM in history. For grace under pressure, no leader has ever come close.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  483. @eah

    Tim Cook, prior to his incarnation as Apple’s CEO, was regarded as the world’s leading practitioner of manufacturing management.

    He is quite explicit about his choice of China and about rejecting alternatives.

    Here’s how a much lower-level practitioner of the art explains his choice of China:

    Most people don’t realize that the Toyota factory churning out cars has only half of its staff on the manufacturing floor. The other half is engineers and supply chain guys, supervisors etc…. the engineers at these facilities are responsible for fixing daily technical issues and working with R & D. The vast majority of modern manufacturing is done by machines.

    American manufacturing moved to China not because of dumb labor, but because you could hire high IQ people for dirt cheap. If your machine broke down, no problem; some Chinese guy (with basically a masters in EE) would pull out the circuit boards and using probes and other instrumentation determine what board needed replacing and he would work annually for a fraction of the salary of his equivalent in the US.

    Manufacturing in the US is a nightmare: at our facility our only requirement for a assembler was a high school degree, US citizenship, passing a drug and criminal background check and then passing a simple assembly test: looking at an assembly engineering drawing and then putting the components together.

    The vast majority of Americans were unable to complete the assembly test, while for our facility in China they completed it in half the time and 100% of the applicants passed. An assembler position in the US would average maybe 30 interviews a day and get 29 rejections, not to mention all the HR hassles of assemblers walking off shift, excessive lateness, stealing from work, slow work speed and poor attitudes.

    The product line is highly specialized equipment, so it makes no sense to fully automate it, most of the components are assembled by hand and for certain steps we use custom engineered jigs. And for those saying that the position wasn’t paying enough, it paid $12 an hour starting in an area with an extremely low cost of living where property taxes for a 2000 square foot house would be $800-$1000 a year. Assemblers don’t make $150K. An assembler takes parts and puts them together. The position starts at $12 an hour in flyover country which is pretty reasonable compared to other jobs that only require a GED and no prior work experience. Offers medical, dental and annual raises with plenty of opportunity to move up in the company. The national average salary for a Production Assembler is $33,029 in United States, which is what you would be making if you stayed for 5+ years.

    Finding a black or Hispanic capable of passing these simple requirements and passing the assembly test is merely impossible nevermind being competent, punctual and of good moral character (not stealing from company or starting conflicts with coworkers). And these are the main groups that apply for this position. The same exact product line has the same facility in China, and the same positions in China pays the same wages as other positions there with only a high school degree and no work experience. Yet the applicant quality is much higher, and this applies as well to the white collar professions that support the manufacturing: schedulers, quality inspectors, equipment testers and calibrators, engineers, supply chain managers, account managers, sales etc….their labor quality is simply higher. I suspect the blacks and Hispanics are probably too dumb to get affirmative action too dumb to go to college, so they probably average 75 IQ and their Chinese equivalents are probably 95 but the performance gap is massive.

    The equivalent position, with the same requirements is present in all countries, with corresponding wages. There is no shortage of applicants in most countries, but in the US the younger candidates routinely fail the exam while in China they routinely pass. The US has a higher proportion of unfit workers than China. Statistically, people that don’t have college degrees apply to this job (and statistically blacks and Hispanics are less likely to have college degrees so the bulk of applicants are black and Hispanic). Likewise in China, the people who typically apply for these positions are high school grads who failed to score enough on the Gao Kao (China’s version of the SAT) and thus unable to gain acceptance into a university.

    There’s a reason why all the tech CEO’s and high level management employees are convinced they can’t replace China and its not because they want to make more profits. At the end of the day, high-end and middling manufacturing is not moving to either the US or Mexico because the average person in flyover country and Mexico are dumb as rocks. And anyone praising Mexico is not upper management and there is a very good reason why Mexico’s economy stagnated until NAFTA which basically was nothing more than a scam to rebrand things manufactured in other countries ‘Made in Mexico’ and export them to the US to avoid tariffs. If Mexico was a competent country with quality workers the laws of economics would magically reroute supply chains without trade wars, tariffs or free trade agreements and likewise the same applies for every 3rd world sh1thole like India or Somalia.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  484. @Lo

    The facts beg to differ:

    If you don’t like something, and if the majority agrees with you, then it can be changed. It is not an option in China. As far as I can see, things you & others complain about are not real issues for the majority of the population.

  485. @Lo

    Pound for pound, I’d guess that more people have died because of decisions by America’s authoritarian leaders than China’s.

    We could start with the 1,000 people the US killed abroad every day since 1950.

    Relatively few have died in China or abroad compared to that and modern Chinese are born with longer healthy life expectancy than Americans.

    • Replies: @Lo
  486. @Godfree Roberts

    Well you seem to have backed off your astonishing claim but undermined your authority on matters on which your readers would like to think they could learn something important by waffle that vastly oversimplifies politics in a parliamentary democracy, not least Australia’s. You don’t actually say she was any good at what you term “the PM’s main responsibility”. Are you actually thinking of some truly important and valuable legislation which she personally got over barriers of opposition by skill and determination? Many will think of her contribution to the vast waste in the Rudd government’s excessive and unnecessarily prolonged response to the GFC when she persisted with her plan for building school halls for years. When she was PM what legislation had to be negotiated for within the party and with crossbench senators and a Green MP? And who did the negotiating? Actually many would rate the PM’s role as chief of the executive branch, as adviser to the G-G and appointer of people to dozens of positions as at least equally important and her own party would certainly want her, above all, to get the politics right for the next election. Their verdict on that last requirement was clear: back to Rudd.

  487. Vidi says:
    @eah

    eg in Thailand, where most hard disks are made (HD manufacturing is also very demanding: traditional magnetic HDs have precision moving components)

    Good point about the hard disks produced in Thailand. But that is just one item, and a rather costly one. How will US multinationals make the zillions of other items — many with low prices and therefore with razor thin margins — as efficiently as they currently do in China?

    It’s not just the low cost of labor; as Tim Cook has said, China hasn’t been a source of the cheapest labor for some time. Education matters. So does infrastructure like roads, trains, and energy. So does the density of suppliers: nearly everything is available locally on short notice — as opposed to needing to be shipped from elsewhere at much delay; this enhances a company’s adaptability and competitiveness. (All this applies especially to a complex product like the iPhone.) Establishing all that in another country, or group of countries, will be very expensive.

    And even if you could do it — even if the US companies could move elsewhere — that would scarcely dent the Chinese manufacturing sector: Chinese people would take over whatever the American companies left behind. And they would prosper, as China’s own internal economy could be larger than the US’s.

    So the trade war is quite futile, and the US will lose.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  488. Lo says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Tens of millions in China (estimates vary, anywhere from 30 million to 45+ million) died during Great Leap Forward alone. Again, tens of millions died during Lenin & Stalin’s terror in USSR. And these people died for no reason other than one-sided, authoritarian decisions. It is of course, very likely that a large number of deaths could have been engineered in order to break any sort of potential resistance and establish a reign of terror where people are reduced to basic animals who are too worried about their survival to care about anything else.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  489. @Lo

    If you fall for those atrocity stories you’ll fall for WMDs and US Presidents becoming Russian agents. Don’t.

    I’ve investigated the Great Leap here: http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/. Nobody starved to death.

    Nor was–or is–there any resistance to becoming prosperous and educated. Those are just American fairy stories.

    • Replies: @Lo
  490. Erebus says:
    @Vidi

    It’s not just the low cost of labor… Education matters. So does infrastructure like roads, trains, and energy. So does the density of suppliers… Establishing all that in another country, or group of countries, will be very expensive.

    … and would take as long as it did in China, if not longer. Namely, more than a generation.

    With a trade war breaking out, Apple, like many other companies manufacturing in China, is looking for options. In Apple’s case, their search will be particularly keen and thoroughly structured with a long list of tick-boxes and a weighted scoring system.

    If Huawei saw this coming 2 years ago, so did Apple and they would also have gone to work looking at all available options and putting pressure on vendors like Foxconn and its supporting networks to help them move Apple’s supply chain out of harm’s way. Indeed, they’ve done that by moving some final assembly to places like India.

    Huawei decided to solve their future supply chain issues by bringing all critical nodes in house. Apple doesn’t have that option in the short, or likely even in the medium term.

    eah
    seems to think procurement is no more than rows of cubicles with guys hunting for screws on the internet. It is in spots, of course, but not at Apple’s end of the supply chain.

    When it comes to having their product made at a full-service OEM mfr, a brand owner like Apple’s in-house designers and engineers work hand-in-glove with the mfr’s production engineering staff, tool makers, programmers, packaging vendors etc etc right through the product’s design & development cycle. There’s no way to bring a product like an iPhone to market in Apple’s or Samsung’s numbers without mile deep & wide collaboration between all the interested parties.

    Choosing who to work with & where ain’t a simple matter. Just ask Boeing.

    • Agree: Vidi
    • Replies: @FB
  491. Lo says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Chinese historians from China itself says so since you wouldn’t accept English pages here is a Chinese page from a Chinese search engine from China: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E4%B8%89%E5%B9%B4%E5%9B%B0%E9%9A%BE%E6%97%B6%E6%9C%9F/10317322?fr=aladdin

    It says in 1960 the population was reduced by 10 million compared to the previous year according to the Chinese National Statistics Office. Given China’s births rates were growing over ten million people a year back then, it has to be 20+ million deaths minimum to have this statistic.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Vidi
  492. FB says: • Website
    @Erebus

    Good explanation E…

    Btw speaking of Boeing you might be interested to know that the test pilots are now speaking out, as I hinted would happen some weeks ago…

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/business/boeing-737-max-crash.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Erebus
  493. Biff says:
    @FB

    They described a compartmentalized approach, each of them focusing on a small part of the plane. The process left them without a complete view of a critical and ultimately dangerous system.

    That there is a killer business model.

  494. Erebus says:
    @FB

    FB, we called it months ago.
    Technically, it’s DOA, and if it ever flies again it’ll be because sufficient political pressure was brought to bear on airlines and national regulators to take the American side in the Great Trade War(s) now getting underway.

    Of course, the political and economic pressure the US can bring to bear is, well, unbearable for many countries and airlines. Boeing’s 5000 unit order book will take a beating, but frankly I do expect that it will eventually fly in the US and get over-flight and landing rights in a sufficient number of markets to sorta limp along while Boeing tries to develop a modern mid-range platform.

    The big background issue is that there is no other source for most of those 5000 planes. Airbus is running at capacity, and UAC would have to make enormous investments in production capacity to fill much of the gap with the MC-21. In any case, the MC-21 won’t start delivering until 2021 due to sanctions.

    The wild card here is, of course, the flying public. If it shuns the B737Max, a lot of old planes are gonna get makeovers so airlines can keep flying.

  495. @Godfree Roberts

    I thought this comment by “Torontian” on a recent FT article about “unreliables” was pretty shrewd and I would be interested in your take:

    “The clocks cannot be turned. China has had 40 years to play on western greed. The money that was made in these 40 years has been enjoyed by a few rich the world over. Meanwhile, the knowledge and skillset that China got, is permanent and has given it a kickstart in its goal for hegemony. China knows how to make iPhone, passenger planes and high speed trains, all thanks to western technology transfers.

    Deng Xao Ping told his counterparts ‘bide your time, hide your strength, never take the lead’. Wonderful piece of advice which was followed by his successors till now. Xi Jing Ping thinks the time has come to throw aside Deng’s advice.

    Personally I think, Xi was hasty. Had China heeded Deng’s advice for 20 more years, the leadership of the world would have fallen into its lap without any of the controversies of today. The western capitalists’ quest for short term profits, greed and absence of any patriotism to the country/values, would have ensured that.

    It is indeed a sorry spectacle of western leadership that it took a Trump to call ‘a spade a spade’. Either the Western leaders prior to him, were ignorant or plain stupid.”

    .

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Erebus
    , @Vidi
  496. FB says: • Website

    The wild card here is, of course, the flying public. If it shuns the B737Max, a lot of old planes are gonna get makeovers so airlines can keep flying.

    I think this is the key too…I think a lot of people have just said ‘no way’…the press has actually been pounding Boeing pretty good…the NYT has been outstanding here…[their non-political coverage has always been rather good…]

    I was expecting Boeing’s massive PR to carry the day…Reuters was especially bad, running a number of stories with outright falsehoods, and parroting Boeing’s line that it was the pilots’ fault…I recall some of the dorks on that thread pulling up this bullshit from Reuters and I thought…’here we go again…the corporate money can paper over anything…’

    But then the pilots’ unions started ripping into Boeing [which I knew was going to happen]…that tipped it…

    So now we’ve had a lot of dirt exposed on Boeing…and people are going to remember one thing only…those pictures of two airplane wreckages that happened ONLY because of a faulty airplane…

    So yes, the older models are just going to get refurbished and keep on flying…you are right about UAC’s lack of production capacity…this is a shame…I remember first visiting Russia in the late ’80s…they were making 40 percent of the world’s civil aircraft at that time…if China had that foundation to build on, they’d be walking on the moon right now…

    Some good discussion about the failings of capitalist greed [and the man who presides over it] over on the Saker thread…saw your very interesting contribution there…

  497. @Lo

    Either that or shonky stats. Since there is no eye-witness accounts, recorded of death by starvation or photographs of starvation after 1950, Frank Dikotter ascribes the deaths to two causes–a population deficit during 1958-1961 and imputed births (i.e., did not actually occur) whose absence he attributes to death by starvation.

    He insists that, had Mao maintained his 1953 population growth rate, China’s population would have been thirty-million higher, basing his claim on the work of American demographers[1] who themselves arrived at their apocalyptic figures by highly dubious methods. One of them, Judith Banister[2] admitted, “In all years prior to 1973-75 the PRC’s data on crude death rates, infant mortality rates, expectation of life at birth, and causes of death were non-existent, useless, or, at best, underestimates of actual mortality.” A University of Chicago demographer[3] pointed out that the 1953 figure came from provincial estimates purporting to show a thirty percent population increase between 1947-53, a period of warfare, famine and intense revolutionary struggle. The missing millions probably never existed, he said.


    [1] AJ Coale (Rapid Population Change in China 1952-1982, 1982) and Judith Banister (China’s Changing Population, 1987)
    [2] Banister, J. China’s Changing Population,(Stanford University Press, 1987), p.87-8.
    [3] Studies on the Population of China, 1368–1953. Ping-ti Ho. January 1959

    • Replies: @Raven
  498. @Wizard of Oz

    We won’t know for a few years if Xi’s call was too early.

    It was timed for 2021, presumably, when China will overtake the US morally–always the first step towards China’s traditional posture of humane authority over the world–and financially.

    I suspect the ‘too soon’ camp have no idea of the extraordinary alliances that China has forged in the past ten years, nor of its overwhelming lead in science and technology. That’s the problem with our censored media: they leave us in the dark until too late.

  499. Erebus says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Personally I think, Xi was hasty. Had China heeded Deng’s advice for 20 more years, the leadership of the world would have fallen into its lap without any of the controversies of today.

    While I’m generally sympathetic to that view, I think China’s hand was forced. Hillary’s 2011 paper America’s Pacific Century made it pretty clear where America was going, and Obama’s subsequent “Pivot” cemented the policy in place. Obviously, both of those were long in gestation, and China would have taken note well before they were announced.

    Another 20 years of increasingly constricting “containment” would have crimped 4 future 5-year Plans. Not what the Politburo had in mind for China’s development. The “controversies of today” doubtless went into their calculus and were found surmountable. The much more important Plans were adjusted to suit the new pressures. I’m sure they’d rather be stronger and the US weaker, but China’s development remains paramount.

    The US’ strategic blunder lay not in trying to contain China, but in rejecting and antagonizing the only viable (and natural) partner it could bring on board for the project, namely Russia. Going on to push Russia and China into partnership was simply the most spectacular strategic blunder I can recall coming out of an Imperial braintrust.

    That has forced the US into the Herculean task of containing both at the same time. That American policy makers seriously thought this was possible suggests that megalomania, and not mere hubris drives American strategy.

  500. Vidi says:
    @Lo

    It says in 1960 the population was reduced by 10 million compared to the previous year according to the Chinese National Statistics Office.

    No one actually knows, not even China’s government. The reason is that until the mid 1970s, there were no reliable statistics. That is not surprising: with so many urgent things to do, counting noses must have been a low priority. So even China’s “official statistics” is guesswork.

    In the Joseph Ball article linked to by Raven (thanks, Raven), the writer says

    In his famous 1965 book on China, A Curtain of Ignorance, Felix Greene says that he traveled through areas of China in 1960 where food rationing was very tight but he did not see mass starvation. He also cites other eyewitnesses who say the same kind of thing. It is likely, that in fact, famine did occur in some areas. However Greene’s observations indicate that it was not a nation-wide phenomenon on the apocalyptic scale suggested by Jasper Becker and others. Mass hunger was not occurring in the areas he traveled through, although famine may have been occurring elsewhere.

    Ball also wrote:

    For Deng’s [capitalist-roading] line to prevail he needed to prove not only that mass deaths happened from 1959-61 but also that these were mainly the result of policy errors. After the Great Leap Forward the official Chinese government line on the famine was that it was 70% due to natural disasters and 30% due to human error. This verdict was reversed by the Deng Xiaoping regime. In the 1980s they claimed the problems were caused 30% by natural disasters and 70% by human error.

    So Deng Xiaoping’s government was strongly interested in exaggerating the deaths during the Great Leap Forward.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  501. Vidi says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Personally I think, Xi was hasty. Had China heeded Deng’s advice for 20 more years, the leadership of the world would have fallen into its lap without any of the controversies of today. The western capitalists’ quest for short term profits, greed and absence of any patriotism to the country/values, would have ensured that.

    I don’t think China had much choice. The Western assault on Russia after 2014 was so ferocious that there was a serious risk that the Anglo Zionist Empire could have expanded right to China’s northern border. Had that happened, it would probably have been lethal to the future of the Middle Kingdom (and to any dreams of an alternative to Turbo Capitalism that the rest of the world may have had). So Xi Jinping chose to stand up and fight, and I think he was right to do it.

  502. Vidi says:
    @Vidi

    Please replace So even China’s “official statistics” is guesswork with So even China’s “official statistics” for that period is just guesswork.

  503. Erebus says:
    @Raven

    Illuminating article. There were political reasons for exaggerating the numbers both in China and the West, but neither set of numbers can be reliably traced to physical reality.

    Thanks for posting it.

  504. @Raven

    Joseph Ball is an excellent source for balanced assessments of such things. Thanks.

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