The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 Jeff J. Brown Archive
How Can Western Capitalism Beat This?
That's the Rub, It Can't
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>
xiJinping-billboard

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New Reply
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

In order to understand China and how the world works, I am very lucky to have lived here during two very different time periods. It started 1990-1997. In the first book of The China Trilogy, 44 Days Backpacking in China, I called this period the Wild East Deng Xiaoping Buckaroo Days. It was intense, crazy and addictive at the same time. I commented that it was like a “Nat King Cole five-pack-day nicotine habit”. I knew it was bad for me, but I just couldn’t get enough of it.

Then, after five years in less and less socialist France and nine years in libertarian capitalist Bush-O-Bomb-America, I came back to China, where I have continued to live since 2010. Having these four different and very unique experiences, spanning 28 years has radically transformed my outlook on humanity, history, economics, geopolitics and the future – while making me much, much wiser.

Having been here so long, I can get inured to China’s civilizational transformation, evolution and warp speed progress. Every once in a while, I have to slap myself in the face and realize just how lucky I am to witness history being made in real time. Over the years, I have been in certain parts of a city or area, then gone back after several weeks or months, and a completely new development or infrastructure project, even an entire suburban neighborhood has sprouted up out of green land. Ho-hum. Another day in China. Creative, hi-tech and mega-engineering projects like the following can become blasé in Sinoland:

To these you can add visionary and daring architecture, stunning skylines, parks, bridges, airports, train/bus stations and ferry terminals, and engineering feats of marvel seen nowhere else on earth. A good example is Shenzhen’s new ferry terminal. It is designed to look like a giant blue and white manta ray jumping out of the water. You can see it from about 45-60s in the first video below, then later at night, during the 2-minute clip, which was fast filmed to show off the city’s harbor area, Shekou:

Western capitalism is simply unable to build a country and a society like this. But communist-socialist China can, does and will continue to so.

Euranglolanders have a painful time wrapping their ideologies and paradigms around the irrefutable, long-term success of China’s evolving communist system, since 1949. Yes, since 1949, with (OMG!) the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution and all that, which is fully covered in the next two books in The China Trilogy. Without the Mao Era, I would be living in and writing about another Indonesia, Columbia or Libya. It’s that simple.

If you think I’m some kind of scintillating genius who figured this out in my mother’s womb, I humbly demur. Even after ten years in Africa and Middle East, 1980-1990 and continuing through the rest of my aforementioned itinerations across our Pale Blue Dot, it wasn’t until I came back here in 2010, then traveling 12,500 kilometers around this country in 2012 to write 44 Days Backpacking in China, that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

I grew up in Oklahoma, USA, ground zero for God, guns, gays and the sanctity of unfettered individualism and jungle capitalism: cowboys, cattle, wheat, churches and oil wells, all gleefully stolen from exterminated Natives. The whole process of getting to my current informed and enlightened awareness was akin to climbing an arduous summit, with a howling occidental hurricane blowing against my face. This is why I am so patient with friends, family, colleagues and strangers, when talking about their convictions and beliefs about how humanity works. With all due respect, most of them are still at base camp, at the bottom of that propaganda mountain, which is no fault of their own. They all grew up behind the Great Western Firewall and are just as brainwashed as I was for about 55- of my 63-year life.

This short clip is a wonderful metaphor for everything I was taught about Western racial, cultural, moral and socioeconomic superiority, while growing up in the United States:

Which brings us to a small, but revealing vignette into China’s communist-socialist system of governance.

Fintech is one of the most exciting, cutting edge 21st century sectors to develop in the last decade. Blockchain and bitcoin are manifestations of fintech. Imperial Westerners, feeling inherently racially superior in every way to the non-White world, just assumed they would take on this mantle, as they have for the last 500 years. My oh my, Buford, how times have changed in a hurry. Commie Baba Beijing, China’s leadership, had a better idea. With its Leninist Five-Year Plans, Democratic Centralism and People’s Dictatorship (I know it jars the eyes, but I explain all this in Trilogy book #3, China Is Communit, Dammit!), China mapped out strategies, budgets and resources to become the world’s fintech leader. Presto! Just like that, Shenzhen, where I live and write is now the fintech capital of the known universe.

Then, last week I saw this article about Baba Beijing’s plans for Shenzhen Fintech v2.0. It’s not long, read it. It’s breathtaking. Shenzhen’s government is going to completely transform a neighborhood, Sunguan, from old economy consumer goods logistics to 21st century fintech. The last paragraph states:

It has been reported that six super-high skyscrapers, such as the 739-meter-tall H700 Shenzhen Tower and a new 600-meter-plus Kingkey Oriental Regent Hotel, will rise up in Sungang in the next five years.

Seven super-high skyscrapers in Shenzhen in the next five years. Let that sink in for a long, thoughtful minute. During your reflection, the imperial-capitalist West will have bombed, massacred, starved and sanctioned untold numbers of poor, defenseless people around the world. Can the contrast be any starker?

In June, 2017, an instructive meeting took place between California Governor Jerry Brown and Chinese President Xi Jinping. While talking about climate change, the topic of high speed trains (HST) came up. Governor Brown supposedly lamented that his state has not been able to build even one puny HST line, since his governor-father began pushing for it back in the 1950s.

Why? While China is zeroing in on 30,000km of HST track, more than the rest of the world combined, along with hundreds of architecturally inspiring train stations to serve them, California has 2,000 lawsuits fighting its proposal. Why? Greedy capitalists and their purchased government employees and representatives are fighting each other for the loot, like cannibals in a kill pit of corruption, while selfish citizens are putting their individual interests ahead of the greater good. The latter is called NIMBY, Not in My Backyard.

In the West, NIMBY is worn like a badge of honor to express Euranglolanders’ sense of freedom and independence. Meanwhile, with communism-socialism’s mantra of harmony, sharing, cooperation and stability for the greater good, the Chinese are laughing all the way to a much higher standard of living and better quality of life.

Western capitalism talks and Chinese communism-socialism walks – no it flies at 350 kilometers per hour in a bullet train.

But I digress. Back to fintech… I can hear the dialogue now,

Yeah, Jeff, but most of these Chinese fintech outfits are private sector, so they are capitalist, right?

Not when they work in a centrally planned country with no private real estate and the top 100 industrial sectors are fully or majority people owned, including banks and insurance companies. Why is Jack Ma so rich and his company, Alibaba so successful? Because Baba Beijing mapped it all out for him, provided a stable economic system, protected his markets and early on offered subsidies with which he could prosper. Jack Ma is a communist-socialist capitalist (weird, I know). He says things like, Today, making money is very simple. But making sustainable money while being responsible to society and improving the world is very difficult. The last Western capitalists I heard talk like that were the founders of Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream and those fake hippies sold out to transnational behemoth Unilever for a cool $326 million in 2000. So much for being responsible to society and improving the world.

Gosh, Jeff, how can Baba Beijing help its business sector like that?

After 1949’s communist liberation, China kicked out all the imperial, colonial Western capitalists, bankers and military. It also eliminated or reformed traitorous local elites, who, for a few bourgeois baubles, would have happily turned China into another strip mined, enslaved, occupied “American ally”, in the Orwellian “Rules-Based International Order” (sic ).

Really, Jeff? How did the Chinese pull that off?

The Chinese people can thank Mao Zedong for his visionary leadership over a communist system of governance and socioeconomics, from 1949-1978.

But Jeff, it was Deng Xiaoping’s reforms and opening up that brought prosperity to the Chinese people, not Mao.

That’s only the second half of the real story. It was Mao’s record breaking foundation building in infrastructure, agriculture, industry, technology, education and New China’s socioeconomic transformation that made possible Deng’s grand dreams of a wealthy communist China. Otherwise, they would have never even gotten one centimeter off the ground . That’s why I call it communism-socialism. Europe’s socialism, what’s left of it, is based on capitalism. Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is the official term used by Baba Beijing and its 1.4 billion citizens. It’s the evolution and adaptation of Deng-Jiang-Hu-Xi socialism built on a mantle-thick bedrock of Maoist communism.

Jeff, I don’t like what I am hearing. My head is spinning and I’ve got a woozy feeling in my belly. That’s not what I was taught and learned all my life. I got a great K-12 education and graduated from college. I’m really well informed. I religiously read the Economist, the New York Times, the Guardian and watch MSNBC, BBC and PBS. You are making me suffer debilitating cognitive dissonance. I think you are wrong. In fact, I think you are full red and yellow shit. PLEASE STOP WRITING RIGHT NOW – PLEASE – THIS INSTANT!

(Taking a thoughtful, patient breath) I understand how you feel and am full of empathy for where you are in the journey of life. I was high fiving with people just like you, until about seven years ago. Please take advantage of all my experiences. If you are willing to challenge yourself, think outside of the box and expand your horizons, may I suggest reading The China Trilogy? It will give you the courage and the optics to see history and current events differently, in contrast to all the 24/7 brainwashing propaganda behind the Great Western Firewall. It is also much cheaper than borrowing a student loan and getting a mainstream diploma. If you read The China Trilogy , I promise you will understand how your world works and where you are headed.

Let’s call it a day on a high note, shall we? Blues guitar great Freddie King did not realize it, but in the song below, he is a great allegory for the capitalist West, which is battling communist-socialist China on the world stage. I close the geo-cultural circle here. An Oklahoma boy in China posts an American blues song as a geopolitical allegory. It was produced by my fellow Oklahoman Leon Russell and sung by a child of America’s colonial slave trade. Got that? We’ve got Leon pounding fury on the 88’s, fellow Oklahoman Chuck Blackwell banging on the drums and Donald “Duck” Dunn riffing large on the bass guitar. What more could you ask for? Take it away, FREDDY!

(Republished from China Rising by permission of author or representative)
 
Hide 403 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. Vidi says:

    Great, this thread is back! I’m glad as I think Jeff wrote a good article. Looks like there was a crash and all the previous comments were lost. I’ll try to recreate mine, as I think they made some decent points.

    Why? While China is zeroing in on 30,000km of HST track, more than the rest of the world combined, along with hundreds of architecturally inspiring train stations to serve them, California has 2,000 lawsuits fighting its proposal. Why? Greedy capitalists and their purchased government employees and representatives are fighting each other for the loot, like cannibals in a kill pit of corruption, while selfish citizens are putting their individual interests ahead of the greater good. The latter is called NIMBY, Not in My Backyard.

    Many Westerners (and Indians) probably think that China starts a megapoject by bulldozing people off the land and leaving them destitute. That is not the case at all, but I am not surprised that the Western media fails to be entirely truthful.

    It is true that people are displaced, but what the Western propaganda carefully does not say is that the Chinese government builds new, free housing for these people and generally leaves them better off. Thus there really wasn’t much resistance from those who had to make way for the Three Gorges dam. Similarly, during the building frenzy in Beijing in 2007-8, just before the Olympics, people were actually hoping to be the next to be moved out for a new stadium or road.

    Occasionally, a corrupt official will basically steal the land, but this is the exception, not the rule.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Another Realist

    ...the Chinese government builds new, free housing for these people and generally leaves them better off.
     
    Better off in what sense? One of the major problems when corrupt government officials seized the land from the farmers is that these farmers lost their livelihood. So what if they get their new high rise modern apartment, usually in the middle of nowhere? There are often no jobs in the area. And they have no more lands to farm. Where will they work? Many end up having to work in construction, helping to build more empty apartments elsewhere.
    , @Jeff J. Brown
    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
    Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
    More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. Ron Unz says:

    Almost all earlier comments were lost in Monday’s server crash. My sincerest apologies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.
    Therefore the dictatorial communist system is bound to disappear.
    I made the comparison with Holland in the 17th century, and Philips II in feudal catholic Spain.
    What we see now in Spain resembles the 17th century clash, I suppose.
    , @jacques sheete
    No apologies necessary. I think I can say that most of us are grateful that we have a forum like this.
    , @Che Guava
    Thanks for the thought, esteemed host.

    Mine wasn't an essay, just four points, but only remembering two right now.
    , @silviosilver
    You should be apologizing for posting the drivel that is this article.

    I don't know what game you're playing by publishing these demented lefties, with whom I'm nigh on certain you don't even remotely agree.

    You're a smart guy, so I trust you know what you're doing. I just hope it's something laudable rather than insidious.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  3. Having lots of high-IQ people who tinker and can do physics and engineering makes transformational industrious feasible.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  4. I was watching a program on space exploration and it stated that after the wind down of Apollo, Nixon had a choice of a cheaper Space Shuttle vs. an expensive Mars mission to keep NASA going. I think that after Trump builds the wall, kicks out the illegals, makes Puerto Rico independent, we might have some funds to try going in that direction. Of course, I will predict that like in the 1960s, all the African-American “leaders” will complain that their “human needs” come first.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joseph Moroco
    Bringing all the troops and fleets an planes home is also essential.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  5. China has figured out the “crony capitalism” of the west. They have also figured out the fiat money scheme of the west, which is why they have been accumulating gold for decades. Capitalism is not to blame, it is the governments that have taken over the market place with fiat money, welfare state debts and regulations that is to blame for the west’s current condition. To the extent that China (and Russia and others) lets the markets be free they will succeed. Let us hope they eschew crony banking and go to a gold/silver/commodity backed currency, and then stand back and let the world advance. But first the present world economy must perish.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
    China has state banks. Fully 70 percent of their money supply originates at these large State owned banks. This is not the "fiat" private banking system of the West.

    China cancels Yuan debts, and this effectively puts debt free money into the supply. Also, China channels new Yuan money at industry. This is called industrial capitalism, invented by Frederick List, and Peshine Smith. Smith's system was called the American System, and List's system was used in Germany by the Kaiser and then later by Hitler. Hitler's Germany was hugely productive and had development patterns similar to China. Japanese copied industrial capitalism and used it in Manchuria during WW2. The Japanese railroad engineers of Manchuria post war used a variant of Industrial Capitalism by using credit guidance windows. This then caused the postwar Japanese miracle.

    With industrial capitalism you get a virtuous cycle of investment then equity, then more investment then more equity. With debt based financial capitalism you get debt, more taxes, more debt. One is virtuous cycle, the other is spiraling downward. Finance Capitalism siphons off the productive surplus, and vectors it into financial markets, where it becomes a Casino of false signaling.

    An economic historian like me can easily see what China is doing. The fact that the West has been taken over by Finance Capitalism is because English/Zion won in WW2. Bad atlantacist and debt based money systems then fully jumped to America ... the parasite jumped to a new host. This system of private debt money, and then usurious financial instruments traded in markets, is a fundamentally flawed economic model.

    China is not doing anything the West didn't already try, it is just that these successful Western economic experiments were strangled in their crib by super predators who feared that their rent taking schemes would perish.

    China's economy is fascist, in that it is a command system OVER private corporations. But, since the word fascism has a negative connotation, people are afraid to use it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  6. Erebus says:

    My first experience of China was sometime in 1990, and I visited often and then finally gave up on it. My 1st visa restricted my movement to designated parts of Shenzhen, and there were checkpoints all over the city. On my 2nd or 3rd visit, I was allowed to go to Guangzhou by train – a 4-5 hour ride on what must have been a WW2 era train with every imaginable sort of passenger including 4-legged. By 1992-ish I figured it would take generations for China to climb out of the hole they were in.

    Tried India instead and had somewhat better luck there. They weren’t in as deep a hole, or so it seemed, and it was far easier to communicate. The bureaucracy, however, was noticeably more obtuse, and delighted in foisting impenetrable documentary requirements on anyone who would dare to export. Importing was even worse, even smoothed over by the customary bribes.

    I had occasion to revisit China in the later ’90s and was stunned to see where less than a decade of development had taken it. Still in a hole, but one could see it wasn’t going to take “generations” to climb out. A critical mass had been reached. The energy level was addictive. Everybody was an entrepreneur, and going hard at it. Nothing was easy, but suddenly everything was possible.

    China turned on the after-burners when it joined the WTO in 2001 and what it is today is several generations ahead of what it was in 2000, and adding a Spain every year.
    The 1990s China is still visible, the ugly, ultra plain, utilitarian factories and apartment buildings are still standing in pockets and 2nd-3rd tier cities, but even that is disappearing fast. 20 yr old buildings built at a time of frenetic expansion aged even less gracefully than they were built, and are coming down in massive re-development schemes at a rate that beggars belief.

    Meanwhile India, socio-economically at least, is still pretty much where it was in the early ’90s. What’s the difference? Why was China, speaking almost no English, coming out from under an even more closed, oppressive system, and behind India & Pakistan on a GDP(PPP)/ca basis in 1990, so much more successful? I gotta believe that the answer is largely Governance.

    Since the Song Dynasty, Governance has been the highest of high arts in the Chinese pantheon. The civil service attracts the best of the best, and the best of those are nurtured through the system to become mayors, county & provincial governors, and finally in the national government after a career of proving themselves. What’s the criteria for a politician? To a very large extent it comes down to how pleased the people living in the area are with the job he’s done. Local governments seem to do an enormous amount of polling to stay on top of what people like and don’t like about their communities. There’s usually a comment box asking you to grade the performance of every gov counter worker from the Immigration official who looks at your passport when you enter, to the police station, to the tax office, to the hospital admittance desk. That works, because if the governor/mayor/village leader/counter worker is at all ambitious, getting the people what they want is how they get graded and move up the food chain.

    LaoTzu’s idea that the ideal ruler is the one nobody notices while great things happen apparently of their own accord seems to have been the guiding principle that BaBa Beijing et al follow. Hi-speed rails criss-cross the country, railway stations, airports, seaports, highways, hospitals pop up out of the ground like mushrooms, while Australian beef, Danish cheeses, Thai curries and French wines suddenly fill the shelves. One wonders where the hell they all came from, but there they are, and once there they seem to have always been there. A people who couldn’t leave the country a couple decades ago, are now the world’s greatest tourists, and there’s demand for the things they found attractive in their travels. To have guided this astonishing development with so little error is itself astonishing. To be sure, there’s plenty of disconnects and slippage, but in the grand scheme it’s just background noise. The signal overpowers it with ease.

    At the time of the 1st Opium War, China was 33% of the world economy, trading places with India for #1 spot for 2000 yrs. It all fell apart for both of them in the 1800s. Ancient, agrarian/artisan, politically decadent cultures ran up against industrial powers that had it all over them. Having re-tooled their culture for the 21st century, the Chinese are on their way to getting back to their natural position. India needs to re-tool as well, but I see no Mao or Deng on their horizon. Meanwhile, the West is in the process of de-tooling its culture, perhaps on its way back to being agrarian/artisan again. It’s gonna be a strange century, methinks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff J. Brown
    Hear, hear, Erebus, a true man of letters and knowledge!

    When are we going to get together for that long considered double date dinner?

    Jeff in China

    , @Another Realist
    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. The reality is both China and India are over populated countries mired in their ancient cultures that encourage endemic corruption. It's been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    Indians are further hobbled by their propensity for violence.

    Would modern infrastructure drag a people out of their ancient cultures and send them into the modern age? The late Samuel Huntington discussed this fine point in his excellent book Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. Huntington pointed out that countries can be modernized without being westernized. Singapore and Japan for instance, are both modernized, but Singapore is a lot more westernized than Japan. Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    By nature the Japanese are very much like the English, law abiding, civic minded, polite. The Chinese are more like Italians, breaking the law when they can get away with it, every man for himself, dog eat dog, rude and loud. Since 70% of Singapore's inhabitants are Chinese, Lee Kuan Yew set out to rid the Chinese of their bad cultural norms by adopting English as the lingua franca and primary language of instruction. He then set up a corruption free government by first paying his cabinet members high salaries to prevent them from being enticed by graft, made every government employee wear a name tag and encourage all citizens to report any government employee that solicits bribe in any way. By such draconian measures he was able to rid the Chinese in Singapore of their propensity for corruption.

    China seeks to emulate Singapore without adopting the two most salient features instituted by Lee Kuan Yew - adoption of English as a primary language of instruction, and paying the cabinet members high enough salaries to prevent them from succumbing to bribes. The president of China makes only US$26,000 a year, that is a joke compared to cabinet members of Singapore who each make US$700,000 a year. That's why China will not be the next Singapore, it will instead become another Malaysia or Russia, mired in corruption and unable to escape the middle income trap. As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption. Corruption will eventually bring down the CPC and China, as it has brought down every single Chinese dynasty throughout its history. Unchecked power always corrupts.

    India is hopeless. It won't even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.

    , @Joe Wong
    Before 1947 there was no such nation called "India." "India" is a western imperialist creation to enslave the Asians against the will of the indigenous people of South Asia, it is illegitimate alien and harmful to the Asians. The current "India" is an extension of its former colonial master, British imperialist, spreading their toxic divide-and-conquer discord among the Asians. Unless this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva get destroyed this toxic cancer will destroy all humanity with its regressive, inhuman and barbaric caste system.

    Half of the “India” is in armed struggles against this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva regime in New Delhi; it is time to support those freedom fighters to shake off the inhuman caste system yoke impose on them by the Hindutva.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  7. Max Payne says:

    As someone who has to visit the cesspool that is the PRC regularly I can say one thing….

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders…. but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially… but… it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.

    Regardless… whenever I hear someone talking about how they are learning French or German or Spanish I always tell them “learn Mandarin, everything else won’t matter”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff J. Brown
    Seriously, Max, your racism is over the top.

    I know Brits who talk about the Irish the way you talk about the Chinese. So, I guess that makes me a monkey too:

    http://chinarising.puntopress.com/2015/10/01/slavs-and-the-yellow-peril-are-niggers-brutes-and-beasts-in-the-eyes-of-western-empire-the-saker-44-days-radio-sinoland-2015-10-1/

    Jeff J. Brown in China

    , @denk
    Bombing hospitals, water, sewerage plants, bridges, market place, ..
    , wedding parties....

    Sniping at ambulances, bombing the rescue parties [double tapping]

    Impose embargoes on essential medicines, replacement parts for bombed out water/sewerage plants.....
    [effectively signing the death certificates of the bombed victims]

    MADeline Olbright
    '500000 Iraqi children are worth it'
    [more like 2 million]

    Obliterating the whole neighborhood of a 'suspect terrorist hideout'...
    just to make sure !

    Strafing at retreating , defenceless soldiers, civilians
    [shooting fish in a barrel]

    Tip of an iceberg !

    If these are the handiwork of 'civilised' people,
    How could there be any 'savages', 'barbarians' left in this world ?

    P.S.
    Unlike all those trolls who yap like well trained parrots about 'Mao the mass murderer' , I can actually back up every single claim I make.
    Like so ...

    Barbarians exhibit 1
    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27e/080.html
    , @denk
    In Fallujah, under conditions of limited food, contaminated water, and massive injuries, for those seeking food, water or medicine there was another problem,
    "there were so many [US] snipers, anyone leaving their house was killed.
    " On November 12th we learned "among the first major targets [in the assault on Fallujah] were the hospitals." A civilian hospital and a trauma clinic were destroyed in a massive air raid, the main hospital was captured by US troops, ambulances were prohibited from traveling into the besieged city and delivering patients in need of emergency care (the US also announced that any and all moving civilian vehicles were designated free-fire targets). Much of the city's water and electricity supplies were cut off making "emergency care all but impossible, in the words of Dr. Hashem Issawi, and contrary to international law, soldiers were "empowered to destroy whatever needs to be destroyed." In the razed clinic, US bombs took the lives of 15 medics, four nurses and 35 patients, according to clinic worker Dr. Sami al-Jumaili. The Los Angeles Times reported that the manager of Fallujah general hospital "had told a US general the location of the downtown makeshift medical center" before it was hit by US bombs. In a smoke-filled, corpse-strewn landscape of collapsed houses and soot-singed factories, a US captain, fresh from 13 days of "shooting holes in every building," starkly noted that the only way to proceed is to "destroy everything in your path."

    Indiscriminate destruction is a war crime in violation of international law as encoded in the Nuremberg Principles. One year later the "wasting" continues

    ------------------------

    Max payne
    'The Chinese are savages, it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.'
     
    Would applying lots of lipsticks turn a pig into human ?
    If this stands for 'civilisation',
    I'd like to know what's barbarism ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  8. Vidi says:

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders…. but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially… but… it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.

    When did Europeans stop throwing buckets of shit on the streets? Exito!

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Any culture despises all other cultures.
    , @Rdm
    Europeans used communal brush to wipe their asses after they're done with their mass.

    An inventor of paper, China rightly made paper for palatial use of 'toilet paper'. China is the inventor of toilet paper.

    Again, lack of modernization pulled China back to stone age, like when thousands of Zheng He's nautical exploration records were burnt and destroyed. China has a self-destructive mechanism for all their achievement in the past.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. Thanks, Ron, for running this. I just found the article, been terribly busy. I’ll join into the new thread when you republish today.

    Best from Jeff in China

    Read More
    • Replies: @upsidedown
    Thanks for reacquainting me, with the late and great Leon Russell.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7MoZuP3JBo

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. @Max Payne
    As someone who has to visit the cesspool that is the PRC regularly I can say one thing....

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders.... but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially... but... it's still a far cry from "civilization". Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit... it's still a monkey.

    Regardless... whenever I hear someone talking about how they are learning French or German or Spanish I always tell them "learn Mandarin, everything else won't matter".

    Seriously, Max, your racism is over the top.

    I know Brits who talk about the Irish the way you talk about the Chinese. So, I guess that makes me a monkey too:

    http://chinarising.puntopress.com/2015/10/01/slavs-and-the-yellow-peril-are-niggers-brutes-and-beasts-in-the-eyes-of-western-empire-the-saker-44-days-radio-sinoland-2015-10-1/

    Jeff J. Brown in China

    Read More
    • Replies: @Erebus
    I don't think it's just racism. A large part of what Max is observing is the lag between technological progress and behaviours. You just can't move cultural norms and behaviours as quickly as you can move mountains and concrete. That really does take generations. One need only read Emile Zola's Germinal to see how brutal were European living conditions and behaviours at the dawn of their Industrial Revolution.

    In most big cities, especially Shenzhen which didn't even exist 30 yrs ago, much of the population is non-native. The factories needed workers, millions of them, and they poured out of hinterland villages seeking their fortunes in The Great Urbanization that hasn't really stopped. These were typically the un-skilled, poorly educated, and coming from the poorest of prospects. That they brought with them the "primitive" norms and behaviours of the dirt poor villages they were raised in shouldn't surprise anyone. These behaviours tended to actually be reinforced in the factory dormitories and surrounding streets as everyone around the industrial zones was from, and in, the same boat.

    A further point is that, at least earlier in the process, non-native also meant transient. People came to make money to [a] support the family they left behind, and [b] sock enough away to be able to buy/build a house/start a business when they returned to the village. Few people thought they were coming to stay for longer than they had to, and that contributed to the lack of good social behaviour. They had little or no emotional investment or commitment to the place they were working.

    All of that is changing, as Max notes, and it'll continue to improve over the coming decades.
    OTOH, the professional classes are as well behaved as any anywhere, and as more people rise to those levels, they provide role models for those below them. Like I said, it takes generations.
    , @lucidian
    Chinese are well known as the most racist people of all.
    , @Quartermaster
    The facts are not racist, they simply are. Referencing Saker is risible. The man is, at best, poorly informed.
    , @Conor Fields
    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, but do you seriously deny the fact that the mindset of most Mainland Chinese people is bordering on sociopathic in nature? I've been all over the world just like you have, and I unfortunately lived in China for over a decade, and I have never, ever encountered any society in which pathological levels of inconsideration, boorishness, and selfishness are so pervasive.

    You're right about the advantages of the Chinese political and economic systems when it comes to large-scale projects. It's superior to the US's broken system in which large companies and other wealthy groups continuously use the government as a tool to enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else -- because at this point, almost every developed nation's political system is superior to that of the US. Is it really that surprising, though, that the Chinese system along with lots of cheap labor is successful at doing what every other developed nation has already managed to do, albeit on a larger scale? I mean, construction workers can do a large portion of the building of bridges, buildings, and subway systems if you clearly tell them how to do it and make sure their tasks are small and simple enough for them to comprehend. These things are not that difficult if all the relevant ideas have already been thought up by others and you've got a limitless supply of workers who will work for low wages. Have you ever taught in a Mainland Chinese school? Have you learned Mandarin and sat down and tried to have intelligent, nuanced conversations with Mainland Chinese people? I've done these things in China and in many other countries, and I have tried to look for the good in Chinese people and to look for social differences that could create the illusion of impaired critical thinking ability, but I just can't avoid coming to the conclusion that Chinese people genuinely are missing something important when it comes to both empathy and critical thinking.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  11. @Erebus
    My first experience of China was sometime in 1990, and I visited often and then finally gave up on it. My 1st visa restricted my movement to designated parts of Shenzhen, and there were checkpoints all over the city. On my 2nd or 3rd visit, I was allowed to go to Guangzhou by train - a 4-5 hour ride on what must have been a WW2 era train with every imaginable sort of passenger including 4-legged. By 1992-ish I figured it would take generations for China to climb out of the hole they were in.

    Tried India instead and had somewhat better luck there. They weren't in as deep a hole, or so it seemed, and it was far easier to communicate. The bureaucracy, however, was noticeably more obtuse, and delighted in foisting impenetrable documentary requirements on anyone who would dare to export. Importing was even worse, even smoothed over by the customary bribes.

    I had occasion to revisit China in the later '90s and was stunned to see where less than a decade of development had taken it. Still in a hole, but one could see it wasn't going to take "generations" to climb out. A critical mass had been reached. The energy level was addictive. Everybody was an entrepreneur, and going hard at it. Nothing was easy, but suddenly everything was possible.

    China turned on the after-burners when it joined the WTO in 2001 and what it is today is several generations ahead of what it was in 2000, and adding a Spain every year.
    The 1990s China is still visible, the ugly, ultra plain, utilitarian factories and apartment buildings are still standing in pockets and 2nd-3rd tier cities, but even that is disappearing fast. 20 yr old buildings built at a time of frenetic expansion aged even less gracefully than they were built, and are coming down in massive re-development schemes at a rate that beggars belief.

    Meanwhile India, socio-economically at least, is still pretty much where it was in the early '90s. What's the difference? Why was China, speaking almost no English, coming out from under an even more closed, oppressive system, and behind India & Pakistan on a GDP(PPP)/ca basis in 1990, so much more successful? I gotta believe that the answer is largely Governance.

    Since the Song Dynasty, Governance has been the highest of high arts in the Chinese pantheon. The civil service attracts the best of the best, and the best of those are nurtured through the system to become mayors, county & provincial governors, and finally in the national government after a career of proving themselves. What's the criteria for a politician? To a very large extent it comes down to how pleased the people living in the area are with the job he's done. Local governments seem to do an enormous amount of polling to stay on top of what people like and don't like about their communities. There's usually a comment box asking you to grade the performance of every gov counter worker from the Immigration official who looks at your passport when you enter, to the police station, to the tax office, to the hospital admittance desk. That works, because if the governor/mayor/village leader/counter worker is at all ambitious, getting the people what they want is how they get graded and move up the food chain.

    LaoTzu's idea that the ideal ruler is the one nobody notices while great things happen apparently of their own accord seems to have been the guiding principle that BaBa Beijing et al follow. Hi-speed rails criss-cross the country, railway stations, airports, seaports, highways, hospitals pop up out of the ground like mushrooms, while Australian beef, Danish cheeses, Thai curries and French wines suddenly fill the shelves. One wonders where the hell they all came from, but there they are, and once there they seem to have always been there. A people who couldn't leave the country a couple decades ago, are now the world's greatest tourists, and there's demand for the things they found attractive in their travels. To have guided this astonishing development with so little error is itself astonishing. To be sure, there's plenty of disconnects and slippage, but in the grand scheme it's just background noise. The signal overpowers it with ease.

    At the time of the 1st Opium War, China was 33% of the world economy, trading places with India for #1 spot for 2000 yrs. It all fell apart for both of them in the 1800s. Ancient, agrarian/artisan, politically decadent cultures ran up against industrial powers that had it all over them. Having re-tooled their culture for the 21st century, the Chinese are on their way to getting back to their natural position. India needs to re-tool as well, but I see no Mao or Deng on their horizon. Meanwhile, the West is in the process of de-tooling its culture, perhaps on its way back to being agrarian/artisan again. It's gonna be a strange century, methinks.

    Hear, hear, Erebus, a true man of letters and knowledge!

    When are we going to get together for that long considered double date dinner?

    Jeff in China

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  12. How Can Western Capitalism Beat [1.4 billion 103 Average IQ Chinese Capitalism]?
    That’s the Rub, It Can’t

    Fixed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    Still, they cannot produce top science talent and have been lagging for decades now in military and other technologies. Chinese are intelligent but not That intelligent. Andrei was rightfully dismissive of IQ because it cannot explain how supposedly super smart Chinese and other north eastern Asians cannot produce scientific breakthroughs and there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.
    , @JosephB
    I second Anatoly's comment. To not bring up cognitive differences in a post of that length is stunning. I'd perhaps tweak Anatoly's comment to 105 IQ, and also mention China seems intent on not being shamed into importing additional internationally non-competitive workers.

    Singapore will do just fine competing with China, as will South Korea and Japan. I suspect New Zealand and Australia will also hold up quite well.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  13. wayfarer says:

    Tibet China Conflict: Religion and the Cultural Revolution

    Tibet Situation: Critical

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    One of the nutty things Westerners and Indians accused the Chinese is ethnic and religious persecution. Cultural revolution is basically a pretext used by Mao to manipulate himself back into power after Mao being marginalized for almost a decade following the massive famine caused by his Great Leap Forward policy. Mao's cultural revolution is basically advertised as a wholesale rejection of traditional Chinese culture and include the destruction of many historic relics and temples. Cultural revolution happened all over China including Tibet and has absolutely nothing to do with ethnic and religious persecution. The dishonesty of the Dalai Lama is that he repackaged it into something Westerners and Indians readily understand, and that is ethnic and religious persecution.
    , @Vidi
    The Dalai Lama is a CIA stooge.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html

    (Yes, a citation of an article in the New York Times. The article was published in 1998, when the paper was still somewhat credible, before the total neocon takeover.)
    , @Joe Wong
    The video showed the Tibetans are performing their cult rituals in Lhasa Tibet China nowadays, if Tibetan’s religion is suppressed as the western narrator said in the video was true, then you will not see so many Tibetans performing those cult rituals so publicly for the West to film for their demonizing China propaganda. It is sad that your racial bigotry blinds you from picking up such contradiction right from beginning of the video.

    Dalai Lama was a wealthy slave owning Tibetan ‘compradores’ imported British goods and facilitated the takeover of local markets and resources in Tibet, as well as allowing the Anglo imperialist pillage forced greater exploitation and taxation of the great mass of Tibetans to suit the needs of the empire.

    The British and American are resentful that CCP terminated their exploitation of Tibetans, imperial domination of Tibet and the gratification of their White supremacy in front of the poverty ridden Tibetans. CCP exposed their imperialist undertaking in engineering Tibetan war lords arm revolt against Chinese central government and the exile of the Dalai Lama and his mentally colonized Tibetan ‘compradores’ by capturing the British and American agents during the putting down of the Tibetan armed rebellion. The British and American are vindictive, so they continue their anti-China propaganda with fake news like the videos you posted.

    The Dalai Lama is a wolf in monk's robes, a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast. Under the Dalai Lama rule, the Tibetan Constitution makes slavery/serfdom legal.
    It allows the buying and selling of Tibetans as slaves/serfs.
    The Dalai Lama in 1951 himself had owned 6500 slaves
    All the monasteries had owned slaves who do all the menial/dirty work.
    It divides Tibetan people into 3 main castes and 12 sub-castes --- with the slaves, the lowest castes.
    (1) the Tibetan nick-names for slaves was "Two-legged cattle"
    (2) these slaves were indeed bought and sold like cattle
    (3) They live in the cattle-shed together with the cattle
    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking "Who is your master?" instead of "what is your name"?
    *5) They were routinely tortured, abused, raped by their masters; gouging eyes, chopping hands and skinning alive were the common penalties under the Dalai Lama rule.
    (6) They had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter
    (7) When the escaped slaves ran to the monasteries for help they were told by monks to accept their Fate as KARMA --- and not to rebel , otherwise they would re-incarnate as something worse

    All of the above, the British and the American were serving the Dalai Lama as political advisors on the governing council.
    , @Lin
    Tibet Situation Critical !!! except for Dalai's boys who are fond of like spiritual/dharmic gay rape !!
    (historically about 1/3 of Tibet males were monks, later fortunately reduced by the Chinese gov)

    https://www.upi.com/Feature-Buddhisms-pedophile-monks/81841020273948/
    ".."In fact, when the Jesuits arrived in China and Japan in the 16th century, they were horrified by the formalized relationships between Buddhist monks and novices who were still children...
    .... this practice continued until well into 20th century,,,
    ...We also know that generations of Dalai Lamas had their 'favorites,...."

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  14. then traveling 12,500 kilometers around this country in 2012 to write 44 Days Backpacking in China, that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

    What are you talking about? The West is under the rule of PC. This damn PC teaches white people that they suck. Google-search for top US scientists and you get some Negro who invented Peanut Butter and other blacks.
    PC says West has no right to moral pride… except in spreading homos and ‘white guilt’ and sucking up to Jews and Negroes and celebrating Diversity.
    Also, when it comes to ‘creativity’, we are told that white people are bland and generic. It’s the Negroes who be ‘creative’ and shi* because they come up with ‘twerking’ and wearing pants low and nursery-rhyming F-bombs.
    And we are told we need MASS IMMIGRATION from Asia because white people suck at math and etc. So, we need Asians to do all the brainy work.

    China during Mao was also failing because of its own PC. Mao could have combined best of Chinese culture and tradition with modernity and industrialization; instead, he waged war on Chinese tradition and culture. He destroyed Chinese society and then let loose the Red Guards or Tards to wreck all of China and drive intellectuals to suicide or to pig farms to clean pig poo.
    Chiang Kai Shek wanted to preserve the best of traditional China while implementing reforms and modernization borrowed from the West. He revered both Confucius and Jesus, and he understood the need for modernization.
    But Mao waged war on Chinese culture and then took only the worst aspects of Western Thought: the ideology of radical self-righteous hatred. His idea of modernization made no sense, destroying much of China during the Great Leap Forward and killing tens of millions.

    So, when did China begin to recover? It was after Mao, and what was the proper formula? It was neo-fascism though the Chinese elites never called it that.
    Fascism is about the integration of various -isms and modes. Instead of seeing them as hopeless opposites or diehard contradictions, they were seen as complementary, mutually interdependent, and integral to the whole.
    So, by the rules of fascism, modernity need not smash all of tradition as ‘reactionary’. Socialism didn’t mean all of capitalism had to be suppressed. Internationalism didn’t mean nationalism was anathema. Rather, nationalisms around the world could be the building block of a mutually respecting international order.

    So, the proper formula for China’s success was nationalism, capitalism, socialism, restoration of some degree of traditionalism, and ethno-centrism. New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.

    The reason for America’s problems in recent times has to do with the fading of white race-ism and American nationalism. When white Americans worked together as a people and identified as a European family, their lives were far more meaningful and their work was far more productive. Such race-ism led to the creation of a magnificent country.

    But look at the current US. Unlike China where the Chinese elites lead the Chinese masses in a spirit of neo-fascism, the US has rule by globalists who despise white Americans and push for greater diversity so that white Americans will be further depressed and even more shamed by PC as the scourge of humanity. White Americans are a subject people, like Hindus under the British or Chinese under Manchu domination.

    The Chinese way is like the Zionist way. (Zionist nationalism in Israel is good. Zionist imperialism in West Bank and Wars for Israel is not good.) Yes, socialism is a part of China’s rise, but not the Maoist kind. It’s socialism mixed with capitalism in the spirit of nationalism. It’s called neo-fascism.

    Granted, one good thing about the communist legacy is this. Though communism was a disaster — Maoism esp sucked –, it did instill the Chinese with a sense of dignity for the common man. So, the neo-fascism of China has a humanist basis, and that has prevented Chinese from becoming too arrogant and chauvinistic.

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of ‘Aryan’ superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.
    One good thing about communism was it taught Chinese to accept being human than trying to be god-like.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.
     
    Except that China doesn't practice ethnonationalism - and its a "crime against the nation" to engage in praise of Han as a race("Han chauvinism" is the exact crime), one that isn't prosecuted very often but it is pretty clear what is the government's position on that: it is just going to inspire fracture. Essentially, its a hate crime if you want to put it in Western terms. Affirmative action is given to minorities as well, to a reasonable extent. Its not Japan.

    That said, you can't bash the Han and there's no nothing like Western self-hate, of course.

    Chinese nationalism is a rigorous practice of "civic nationalism", the type that Unz commentators often tend to ridicule but it clearly works for them. Having an unified philosophy can act much like an unified religion in bringing people together and creating a shared sense of values.

    , @jilles dykstra
    The feeling of grandeur was in 1919 Versailles, where the virtual birth of Hitler was.
    Was not Wilson's statement 'war to end al wars' grandeur ?
    , @jacques sheete

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of ‘Aryan’ superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.
     
    Yes, that's the myth many of us have been taught, but can you support the claim? Are you able to recognize war time propaganda when you encounter it?
    , @nationalist
    Very well stated, wow!

    Homogenious societies, save a few, can accomplish miracles without the yoke of usary. America is getting exactly what it deserves, most are unwitting boiling frogs. God have mercy on the traiters if the populace awakens in time.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  15. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Priss Factor
    then traveling 12,500 kilometers around this country in 2012 to write 44 Days Backpacking in China, that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

    What are you talking about? The West is under the rule of PC. This damn PC teaches white people that they suck. Google-search for top US scientists and you get some Negro who invented Peanut Butter and other blacks.
    PC says West has no right to moral pride... except in spreading homos and 'white guilt' and sucking up to Jews and Negroes and celebrating Diversity.
    Also, when it comes to 'creativity', we are told that white people are bland and generic. It's the Negroes who be 'creative' and shi* because they come up with 'twerking' and wearing pants low and nursery-rhyming F-bombs.
    And we are told we need MASS IMMIGRATION from Asia because white people suck at math and etc. So, we need Asians to do all the brainy work.

    China during Mao was also failing because of its own PC. Mao could have combined best of Chinese culture and tradition with modernity and industrialization; instead, he waged war on Chinese tradition and culture. He destroyed Chinese society and then let loose the Red Guards or Tards to wreck all of China and drive intellectuals to suicide or to pig farms to clean pig poo.
    Chiang Kai Shek wanted to preserve the best of traditional China while implementing reforms and modernization borrowed from the West. He revered both Confucius and Jesus, and he understood the need for modernization.
    But Mao waged war on Chinese culture and then took only the worst aspects of Western Thought: the ideology of radical self-righteous hatred. His idea of modernization made no sense, destroying much of China during the Great Leap Forward and killing tens of millions.

    So, when did China begin to recover? It was after Mao, and what was the proper formula? It was neo-fascism though the Chinese elites never called it that.
    Fascism is about the integration of various -isms and modes. Instead of seeing them as hopeless opposites or diehard contradictions, they were seen as complementary, mutually interdependent, and integral to the whole.
    So, by the rules of fascism, modernity need not smash all of tradition as 'reactionary'. Socialism didn't mean all of capitalism had to be suppressed. Internationalism didn't mean nationalism was anathema. Rather, nationalisms around the world could be the building block of a mutually respecting international order.

    So, the proper formula for China's success was nationalism, capitalism, socialism, restoration of some degree of traditionalism, and ethno-centrism. New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.

    The reason for America's problems in recent times has to do with the fading of white race-ism and American nationalism. When white Americans worked together as a people and identified as a European family, their lives were far more meaningful and their work was far more productive. Such race-ism led to the creation of a magnificent country.

    But look at the current US. Unlike China where the Chinese elites lead the Chinese masses in a spirit of neo-fascism, the US has rule by globalists who despise white Americans and push for greater diversity so that white Americans will be further depressed and even more shamed by PC as the scourge of humanity. White Americans are a subject people, like Hindus under the British or Chinese under Manchu domination.

    The Chinese way is like the Zionist way. (Zionist nationalism in Israel is good. Zionist imperialism in West Bank and Wars for Israel is not good.) Yes, socialism is a part of China's rise, but not the Maoist kind. It's socialism mixed with capitalism in the spirit of nationalism. It's called neo-fascism.

    Granted, one good thing about the communist legacy is this. Though communism was a disaster -- Maoism esp sucked --, it did instill the Chinese with a sense of dignity for the common man. So, the neo-fascism of China has a humanist basis, and that has prevented Chinese from becoming too arrogant and chauvinistic.

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of 'Aryan' superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.
    One good thing about communism was it taught Chinese to accept being human than trying to be god-like.

    New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.

    Except that China doesn’t practice ethnonationalism – and its a “crime against the nation” to engage in praise of Han as a race(“Han chauvinism” is the exact crime), one that isn’t prosecuted very often but it is pretty clear what is the government’s position on that: it is just going to inspire fracture. Essentially, its a hate crime if you want to put it in Western terms. Affirmative action is given to minorities as well, to a reasonable extent. Its not Japan.

    That said, you can’t bash the Han and there’s no nothing like Western self-hate, of course.

    Chinese nationalism is a rigorous practice of “civic nationalism”, the type that Unz commentators often tend to ridicule but it clearly works for them. Having an unified philosophy can act much like an unified religion in bringing people together and creating a shared sense of values.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Nice nonsense about civic nationalism. Most Chinese dwell in very homogeneous cities and towns surrounded almost solely by their own regional co-ethnics. The end result is essentially the same as Japan (and Korea, ect.) for many hundreds of millions of Chinese people.
    , @Priss Factor
    Except that China doesn’t practice ethnonationalism – and its a “crime against the nation” to engage in praise of Han as a race(“Han chauvinism” is the exact crime), one that isn’t prosecuted very often but it is pretty clear what is the government’s position on that

    Ethno-nationalism and national chauvinism are two different things. One is about pride of identity and culture and defense of territory. The other is about acting BETTER than other peoples and nations.
    There is certainly Chinese nationalism.
    And even though this nationalism isn't always explicitly pro-Han, Chinese nationalism is defacto Han pride and culture because most Chinese are pro-Han. It's like Americanism used to mean pretty much WHITE Americanism before the change in immigration laws and promotion of Diversity as the new identity of America.
    Also, the Han-run government ensures Han encroachment and domination of Uighur and Tibetan territories.

    In a way, Chinese suppression of explicit Han nationalism is to rule over non-Han people. Chinese do this in the name of 'brotherhood of man' and benevolence. But those are justifications to exert power over others.
    It's like what the US does in the Middle East. US suppresses overt anti-Muslim rhetoric precisely because it wants to meddle in the Middle East. If the US government expressed overt hostility to Muslim World, even Saudis would have to stand up to US power.

    Granted, the difference is Chinese are maintaining control over their own territory whereas US invades and interferes abroad. But China is a kind of empire nation... like the US, Iran, Russia, and Turkey. And of course so many crazy-quilt nations of Latin America and Africa.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  16. DB Cooper says:
    @wayfarer
    Tibet China Conflict: Religion and the Cultural Revolution
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAJNR1Z_Il0

    Tibet Situation: Critical
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqdQtwFjeMY

    One of the nutty things Westerners and Indians accused the Chinese is ethnic and religious persecution. Cultural revolution is basically a pretext used by Mao to manipulate himself back into power after Mao being marginalized for almost a decade following the massive famine caused by his Great Leap Forward policy. Mao’s cultural revolution is basically advertised as a wholesale rejection of traditional Chinese culture and include the destruction of many historic relics and temples. Cultural revolution happened all over China including Tibet and has absolutely nothing to do with ethnic and religious persecution. The dishonesty of the Dalai Lama is that he repackaged it into something Westerners and Indians readily understand, and that is ethnic and religious persecution.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. Erebus says:
    @Jeff J. Brown
    Seriously, Max, your racism is over the top.

    I know Brits who talk about the Irish the way you talk about the Chinese. So, I guess that makes me a monkey too:

    http://chinarising.puntopress.com/2015/10/01/slavs-and-the-yellow-peril-are-niggers-brutes-and-beasts-in-the-eyes-of-western-empire-the-saker-44-days-radio-sinoland-2015-10-1/

    Jeff J. Brown in China

    I don’t think it’s just racism. A large part of what Max is observing is the lag between technological progress and behaviours. You just can’t move cultural norms and behaviours as quickly as you can move mountains and concrete. That really does take generations. One need only read Emile Zola’s Germinal to see how brutal were European living conditions and behaviours at the dawn of their Industrial Revolution.

    In most big cities, especially Shenzhen which didn’t even exist 30 yrs ago, much of the population is non-native. The factories needed workers, millions of them, and they poured out of hinterland villages seeking their fortunes in The Great Urbanization that hasn’t really stopped. These were typically the un-skilled, poorly educated, and coming from the poorest of prospects. That they brought with them the “primitive” norms and behaviours of the dirt poor villages they were raised in shouldn’t surprise anyone. These behaviours tended to actually be reinforced in the factory dormitories and surrounding streets as everyone around the industrial zones was from, and in, the same boat.

    A further point is that, at least earlier in the process, non-native also meant transient. People came to make money to [a] support the family they left behind, and [b] sock enough away to be able to buy/build a house/start a business when they returned to the village. Few people thought they were coming to stay for longer than they had to, and that contributed to the lack of good social behaviour. They had little or no emotional investment or commitment to the place they were working.

    All of that is changing, as Max notes, and it’ll continue to improve over the coming decades.
    OTOH, the professional classes are as well behaved as any anywhere, and as more people rise to those levels, they provide role models for those below them. Like I said, it takes generations.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  18. Vidi says:
    @wayfarer
    Tibet China Conflict: Religion and the Cultural Revolution
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAJNR1Z_Il0

    Tibet Situation: Critical
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqdQtwFjeMY

    The Dalai Lama is a CIA stooge.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html

    (Yes, a citation of an article in the New York Times. The article was published in 1998, when the paper was still somewhat credible, before the total neocon takeover.)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  19. eah says:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi
    The lesson is, dig your underground parking lots before erecting a building on top of it, not afterwards.
    , @Joe Wong
    The guy manged the project got an Harvard MBA.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  20. lucidian says:

    China is a third world country. China is a thieving country. The Chinese have ZERO respect for intellectual property. Chinese people, like the Japanese, are obedient, and can be marshaled by their leaders to partake in great projects. But, like the Japanese, they do not invent. They are not a creative people.

    Chinese are well known as the most racist people on the planet. They are not a fair people. They are an aggressive, cold-hearted people.

    China may yet eclipse America, but only because America is intent on destroying itself. Not because China is virtuous. China is a cancer.

    China has ascended in a parasitic way. They have taken advantage of America’s stupidity and kindness and trust. If America regains her pride, and wakes up to the Chinese plunder and puts an end to it, China’s rise will be severely curtailed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    Exactly correct. China's economy is a bubble and they have been spending money like a drunken sailor on things that simply don't make sense (empty cities are just one example). In technology, China has been a parasite, stealing from anyone they can. The Soviet Union was the same way. China's advance will come to a crashing halt for the same reason the Soviet's advance did.

    With the elevation of Xi to a position of Second Great Helmsman, after Mao's Great Helmsman, there will be a crackdown, and if the FedGov comes to its senses, will realize we have educated, and trained our enemies, as well as equipped them. The US relationship with Red China makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
    , @Anonymous
    ''>But, like the Japanese, they do not invent. They are not a creative people.<''


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_inventions_and_discoveries

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  21. @Ron Unz
    Almost all earlier comments were lost in Monday's server crash. My sincerest apologies.

    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.
    Therefore the dictatorial communist system is bound to disappear.
    I made the comparison with Holland in the 17th century, and Philips II in feudal catholic Spain.
    What we see now in Spain resembles the 17th century clash, I suppose.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.
     
    Unfortunately, the American experience shows that the big winners of the economic liberty game also win the game of political liberty and then are free to change the rules of the game to benefit themselves at the expense of others and are at liberty to impose virtual serfdom an the rest of us.

    In particular, the big winners of the world wars, economically speaking, gained pretty complete hegemony over any competition, both foreign and domestic, using the handy instrument of centralized government and it can be seen in the war collectivism that was prepared prior to WW1, and honed to a fine edge in the subsequent two big ones.

    It may be that one reason for China's successes is that they have not yet squandered their wealth in military adventurism all over the world as has the US for the century and a quarter.
    , @Joe Wong
    You should say dictatorial system is bound to disappear regardless it is capitalism, communism, western style democracy (Orwellian police state in reality).

    Capitalism is about greed, maximize bottom line, monopoly, concentration of wealth and exploitation, while communism is about equalizing wealth. The end result is capitalism reducing economic liberty for the 99% while the communism improve economic liberty for all, such conclusion is also reflecting in the current world. In according to your conclusion the capitalism is bound to disappear because capitalism reduces economic liberty.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  22. @Priss Factor
    then traveling 12,500 kilometers around this country in 2012 to write 44 Days Backpacking in China, that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

    What are you talking about? The West is under the rule of PC. This damn PC teaches white people that they suck. Google-search for top US scientists and you get some Negro who invented Peanut Butter and other blacks.
    PC says West has no right to moral pride... except in spreading homos and 'white guilt' and sucking up to Jews and Negroes and celebrating Diversity.
    Also, when it comes to 'creativity', we are told that white people are bland and generic. It's the Negroes who be 'creative' and shi* because they come up with 'twerking' and wearing pants low and nursery-rhyming F-bombs.
    And we are told we need MASS IMMIGRATION from Asia because white people suck at math and etc. So, we need Asians to do all the brainy work.

    China during Mao was also failing because of its own PC. Mao could have combined best of Chinese culture and tradition with modernity and industrialization; instead, he waged war on Chinese tradition and culture. He destroyed Chinese society and then let loose the Red Guards or Tards to wreck all of China and drive intellectuals to suicide or to pig farms to clean pig poo.
    Chiang Kai Shek wanted to preserve the best of traditional China while implementing reforms and modernization borrowed from the West. He revered both Confucius and Jesus, and he understood the need for modernization.
    But Mao waged war on Chinese culture and then took only the worst aspects of Western Thought: the ideology of radical self-righteous hatred. His idea of modernization made no sense, destroying much of China during the Great Leap Forward and killing tens of millions.

    So, when did China begin to recover? It was after Mao, and what was the proper formula? It was neo-fascism though the Chinese elites never called it that.
    Fascism is about the integration of various -isms and modes. Instead of seeing them as hopeless opposites or diehard contradictions, they were seen as complementary, mutually interdependent, and integral to the whole.
    So, by the rules of fascism, modernity need not smash all of tradition as 'reactionary'. Socialism didn't mean all of capitalism had to be suppressed. Internationalism didn't mean nationalism was anathema. Rather, nationalisms around the world could be the building block of a mutually respecting international order.

    So, the proper formula for China's success was nationalism, capitalism, socialism, restoration of some degree of traditionalism, and ethno-centrism. New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.

    The reason for America's problems in recent times has to do with the fading of white race-ism and American nationalism. When white Americans worked together as a people and identified as a European family, their lives were far more meaningful and their work was far more productive. Such race-ism led to the creation of a magnificent country.

    But look at the current US. Unlike China where the Chinese elites lead the Chinese masses in a spirit of neo-fascism, the US has rule by globalists who despise white Americans and push for greater diversity so that white Americans will be further depressed and even more shamed by PC as the scourge of humanity. White Americans are a subject people, like Hindus under the British or Chinese under Manchu domination.

    The Chinese way is like the Zionist way. (Zionist nationalism in Israel is good. Zionist imperialism in West Bank and Wars for Israel is not good.) Yes, socialism is a part of China's rise, but not the Maoist kind. It's socialism mixed with capitalism in the spirit of nationalism. It's called neo-fascism.

    Granted, one good thing about the communist legacy is this. Though communism was a disaster -- Maoism esp sucked --, it did instill the Chinese with a sense of dignity for the common man. So, the neo-fascism of China has a humanist basis, and that has prevented Chinese from becoming too arrogant and chauvinistic.

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of 'Aryan' superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.
    One good thing about communism was it taught Chinese to accept being human than trying to be god-like.

    The feeling of grandeur was in 1919 Versailles, where the virtual birth of Hitler was.
    Was not Wilson’s statement ‘war to end al wars’ grandeur ?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  23. @Vidi

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders…. but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially… but… it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.
     
    When did Europeans stop throwing buckets of shit on the streets? Exito!

    Any culture despises all other cultures.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    Any culture despises all other cultures.
     
    Not all cultures despise all others. For example, most Europeans seriously respect the old Greeks and Romans.

    By the way, the Europeans really did throw their sewage onto the street in front of their homes. "Exito!", or something like it, was shouted to warn passers-by to get under cover if they didn't want the smelly brown stuff to land on them. I haven't read Marco Polo's writings, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one of his top amazements was that Chinese cities were clean and didn't smell like open sewers.

    Of course, Europeans don't do such unsanitary things any more. My point is that morals change, behaviours change. Give the Chinese a few more years to adjust to their newfound prosperity, and they too will behave like prosperous people.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  24. lucidian says:
    @Jeff J. Brown
    Seriously, Max, your racism is over the top.

    I know Brits who talk about the Irish the way you talk about the Chinese. So, I guess that makes me a monkey too:

    http://chinarising.puntopress.com/2015/10/01/slavs-and-the-yellow-peril-are-niggers-brutes-and-beasts-in-the-eyes-of-western-empire-the-saker-44-days-radio-sinoland-2015-10-1/

    Jeff J. Brown in China

    Chinese are well known as the most racist people of all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Racism (originated from Orientalism) is a White invention, the worst kind of development of human intelligence, it makes human beings pit against each other blindly like bigot creatures. Racism is the ultimate expression of greed, selfishness, closed mindedness, hypocrisy and it is an eternal drag on the progress of civilization.

    Thanks to the racism invented by the White, now human being can treat each other with contempt, enslave others on the moral high ground, slaughter others as subhuman species, and we never can live together in harmony on this tiny little blue dot in the vast empty universe.

    The racism invented by the White makes us lonely in this cold dark universe because we no longer trust each other to get warmth.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  25. I’m old enough to remember an America free enough to get things done, like landing on the moon (or at least doing an outstanding job of faking it, if that be the case). As we have dialed back on freedom to right the injustices and micro-aggressions and privileges that are perceived by some and as we have regulated society more to prevent “predation” by those who do, we have stagnated. China is hardly a beacon of liberty, but they are at least moving in that direction, and that has made all the difference. Yeah, they have dirty air; so did we, and we eventually got over it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  26. Western Capitalism, if that is what the United States is, means tens of thousands of new regulations each year written by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats who self-select into those jobs by virtue of their psychopathy.

    I have never seen more sadistic, malicious people than petty tyrants in permitting offices, inspector offices, IRS, EPA, OSHA, you name it.

    I have carefully avoided, tried to survive away from these tyrants but still be a private sector producer who has to perform for his customers.

    I’ve tried in some regions of the country, but in my home state you can’t even fix a fence without having to hire a surveyor. Can’t replace a sidewalk pad without an excavation permit. Cannot hire a 15 year old to operate a weed whacker or anybody under 18 for any construction work whatsoever. It is a felony, with all the approbation attached to child labor exploitation. To teach him a trade that can sustain a family for the rest of his life. This is a crime, in the land of the free.

    So yes, of course China could grow at ten percent a year. They won’t jail you for hiring a sixteen year old. She can’t sue you for sexual harassment because you called her “young lady” or some other horror like hearing an off-color joke. No hiring preferences, no equal-opportunity hoops to jump through. No permitting, no infinite and contradictory regulations.

    Politically, in China you keep your mouth shut. Economically, they have a lot more freedom in many ways.

    Read More
    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You can do anything in China politically except try to overthrow the government; try setting up an organization to throw the government in the US and see how far they'll let you, in the same way. There's relatively less political freedom in China, but its not a fundamental difference thanks to the increasing oppressive nature of the US society as well.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  27. @Anatoly Karlin

    How Can Western Capitalism Beat [1.4 billion 103 Average IQ Chinese Capitalism]?
    That's the Rub, It Can't
     
    Fixed.

    Still, they cannot produce top science talent and have been lagging for decades now in military and other technologies. Chinese are intelligent but not That intelligent. Andrei was rightfully dismissive of IQ because it cannot explain how supposedly super smart Chinese and other north eastern Asians cannot produce scientific breakthroughs and there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.

    Read More
    • Replies: @WHAT
    Asians produce plenty of scientific works in various fields, and at some nearby point quantity will turn into quality as well. Nobel Prize here is not an indicator, because it is very slow in general and very obviously represents pro-european bias in nominant selection.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    It is true that East Asians, at similar levels of development to European countries, tend to underperform relative to their IQ - possibly because of a lack of curiosity, or other factors.

    Still, there's a lot of Chinese.

    Here is a good proxy for elite level scientific output: https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    China (WFC=6,500) is already a solid second to the United States (WFC=15,000), with more than 40% of its output.

    Now if it were to converge to the per capita performance of Taiwan (WFC=300), South Korea (WFC=1,000), Japan (WFC=2,500), it would soar past the United States.

    Nobel Prizes lag reality by around a generation. See the explosion of Japanese Nobel Prizes c.2000.
    , @jacques sheete

    ...there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.
     
    That's a novel take. Anyway, forgive me if I've assumed that you mean Nobel prize winners, but the prizes seem like a farce to me and indicate one thing, i.e., that the recipient has been approved by the cliques who run such things.

    Take O-bomb-a's "peace" prize, for instance.

    , @Joe Wong
    Sergey Krieger, goose step, toothbrush mustache, death production line for Holocaust are some of the notable technological breakthroughs produced by the German.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  28. JosephB says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    How Can Western Capitalism Beat [1.4 billion 103 Average IQ Chinese Capitalism]?
    That's the Rub, It Can't
     
    Fixed.

    I second Anatoly’s comment. To not bring up cognitive differences in a post of that length is stunning. I’d perhaps tweak Anatoly’s comment to 105 IQ, and also mention China seems intent on not being shamed into importing additional internationally non-competitive workers.

    Singapore will do just fine competing with China, as will South Korea and Japan. I suspect New Zealand and Australia will also hold up quite well.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  29. I wonder how many think Chinese project is sustainable long term considering size of their population and resources limits? They are already drowning in debt and ecological consequences of their growth. Last time I was in China in 2001 the air was dirty I could barely see. I guess it is a lot worse now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Its a lot better now. What the Party wants to improve, they do.
    , @Joe Wong
    You should know the belief that only the White can invent and only the White can succeed is a religious myth.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  30. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    1) The West is not really capitalist. A third of Americans need a government lisence to work. The interest rate is not set by supply and demand but the government agency FED. Taxes are 50% and there are hundreds of thousands of regulations. Also there is government education that has destroyed the capistalist mindset which is probably the worst of all.

    2) Just because the East builds things, does not mean it is beating us. The whole world, but especially China, is sitting on a financial bubble that will expose many of these investments as not productive.

    3) I am happy for the East’s Progress. I don’t care if they beat us. It’s not a race.

    Read More
    • Replies: @interesting
    "A third of Americans need a government license to work"

    and all you need is a pulse to vote.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  31. It’s not so much that Capitalism is failing to maintain pace with “The Chinese Way” – rather, it’s the simple fact that a society and economy that are based on lies will always be at a disadvantage relative to a society and economy that accept reality and deal with it as it is, not as (((some))) might wish it to be.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  32. El Dato says:

    Fintech is one of the most exciting, cutting edge 21st century sectors to develop in the last decade.

    I disagree completely. IMHO it is the lastest hat trick of producing something pretend-productive that basically boils down to flimflammery and jiggling numbers. The idea is to cream off money and leave before the house of cards collapses.

    Creative, hi-tech and mega-engineering projects like the following can become blasé in Sinoland:

    But will they still stand in 12 months and be productively occupied as well as being correctly maintained? If not, it is just a waste of money, brain and time, driven by cheap money bubble economics. And your farmland is gone, too. And the resources you pumped into it, too.

    Positive ROI – a hard constraint. Not as hard as lightspeed, but nearly so.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  33. @Ron Unz
    Almost all earlier comments were lost in Monday's server crash. My sincerest apologies.

    No apologies necessary. I think I can say that most of us are grateful that we have a forum like this.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  34. Jeff, I’m very sympathetic to your basic argument here–even the Mao part. But why do you have to be so anti-white? Why does it seem that you’re incapable of saying anything positive about China without immediately turning around and attacking your own country and people? Do you really think that’s the best way of getting your message across? If you’re hoping to persuade people in America to improve their country, then you’re more likely to succeed by inspiring them, rather than berating them.

    And why do you think we’re so awful and inferior anyway? Isn’t it true that pretty much all that glitzy new technology the Chinese are implementing was originally invented by us? And what about our glorious Gothic cathedrals and Renaissance master pieces? And isn’t it true that the Chinese themselves are really into our classical, symphonic music? And what about the Enlightenment, and all those stunning breakthroughs in science, mathematics and industry? Now I’m well aware of our limitations and mistakes as a people, but is all of our world-historical achievement really negated by the existence of slavery (in some parts of the West, for a while)?

    Some of us are able to admire and appreciate the dynamic things happening in China without being against our own civilization. Do you think you can learn to walk and chew gum at the same time, too?

    Read More
    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  35. How Can Western Capitalism Beat This?

    No. And that’s because it’s a plutocratic, oligarchic, militaristic, debt fueled, parasitic, war socialism type of capitalism designed from the start to benefit the few at the expense of the many.

    I know nothing about China, but from what I know about other Asian countries and how the Chinese fare in them, I suspect they employ a somewhat purer and less militaristic type of capitalism there. It likely resembles the the freer capitalism, (minus the militaristic aggression) that characterized that of the US during the 19th century, and which died at the end of that century during the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson, primarily,

    It is now widely understood that the United States in mid twentieth century is a Leviathan Corporate State—a political economy dominated by giant multinational corporations whose extensive domain, operating with the levers of government, extends from the local retail outlet to firms negotiating for rights to explore oil deposits offshore of Saigon.

    But the corporate state…is by no means a new phenomenon. The corporate leviathan began to emerge at the turn of the twentieth century, after an era of substantial laissez-faire had proceeded to industrialize and urbanize the nation

    A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State EDITED BY RONALD RADOSH AND MURRAY N. ROTHBARD,1972, p

    https://mises.org/system/tdf/A%20New%20History%20of%20Leviathan_2.pdf?file=1&type=document

    Let’s hope the same fate doesn’t befall Chinese capitalism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I know nothing about China, but from what I know about other Asian countries and how the Chinese fare in them, I suspect they employ a somewhat purer and less militaristic type of capitalism there. It likely resembles the the freer capitalism, (minus the militaristic aggression) that characterized that of the US during the 19th century, and which died at the end of that century during the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson, primarily,
     
    I'm glad you admit that you know nothing.

    While the article you commented on is bad, it describes that China does not have "free capitalism".

    You'll know that the US economy continued growing at its traditional 3-4% pace after the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson.

    You are a religious fanatic. I am offended that you libertarian faggots still exist.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  36. Che Guava says:
    @Ron Unz
    Almost all earlier comments were lost in Monday's server crash. My sincerest apologies.

    Thanks for the thought, esteemed host.

    Mine wasn’t an essay, just four points, but only remembering two right now.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  37. Ron Unz says:

    Most readers are probably already aware of this, but a few years ago I published a couple of articles of my own closely related to the subject of this piece. Here are the links:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  38. Hu Mi Yu says:

    I can’t recall whether I left any comments before the crash, but I was following this thread with interest. I believe I may have met Mr. X. about thirty years ago at an engineering conference. It is also possible it was someone else; I have met other famous people who turned out to be hired actors working for the CIA. Notably I had a private meeting with someone impersonating President Eisenhower when I was ten years old.

    Looking back it seems I was first vetted by at least two Chinese friends about my opinions of China and communism. As it turns out my grandmother was a patriotic flag-waving world war II communist, who was always trying to get people to vote for socialism. This was sufficient to get me through the vetting process.

    We had a long and interesting conversation. Mr. X. said that he was in the same situation. His grandparents were also communists. They knew they had made mistakes, but China is a very traditional country. They couldn’t just turn around and reject Mao they way the Soviets turned on Stalin. We agreed that if a person is conservative, they must accept the government they have. A stable government can only make slow and careful changes to correct the worst problems.

    The people hate us.” Mr. X. said to me.

    At this point the people who debrief me stop and interject something like “You see, they know the people hate them.” Then the interrogation ends abruptly.

    But Mr. X. continued, and they never hear the rest of what he had to say.

    What can we do to make their lives better?” He had asked.

    The conversation turned to Chinese people becoming ill from bad water. He knew America had a method of purifying seawater to make it drinkable. He wanted to know how it was done.

    He didn’t ask me about the military. He didn’t want to steal hi-tech secrets. He only asked me about WWII era American technology that could save millions of lives in China.

    I had had no special clearances. I possessed no secrets in this area, but I knew the term “reverse osmosis.” For decades the technique had already been used to purify water for high school chemistry classes in the US.

    After our conversation was over, one of my Chinese friends told me that Mr. X. was an important communist who had an office in the Forbidden City. It was only a few years later when made-in-China water purifiers began appearing in stores and shopping malls in the US. The magic words “reverse osmosis” were prominently displayed on the front of the machines. For twenty-five cents a gallon I could have all the pure fresh tasting water I wanted. By comparison American tap water tastes like p**s.

    So I find myself wondering how come my government sat on this technology that could not only improve life for American consumers, but save millions of lives in China.

    Chinese leader: “The people hate us. What can we do to make their lives better?

    American leader: “The people hate us. What can we do to hurt them?

    This is the difference between a nation on the way up and a nation on the way down.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  39. mp says:

    I remember sitting in a Starbucks in Shenzhen with a few Chinese businessmen. During happy talk one asked me, “How do you like being in a “police state.” That’s when it hit me. Chinese can do pretty much everything in China that we can do in the West, with the possible exception of some degenerate moral stuff (open homosexing, porn, drugs) which Chinese don’t allow. On the other hand, you can’t vote.

    I looked around, and most everything in the city was new. Shenzhen was a small fishing village in the ’80s. Now it was like Hong Kong. High speed trains with attractive women in uniforms serving coffee and tea. Johnny on the spot bus service with no Boyz from da Hood looking to rob you. Ability to walk through winding big city streets and not get mugged. Sure, the air quality sucked, but that’s being worked on.

    But the one thing you can’t do is vote. Yet who are we voting for? For politicians whose idea of representation is selling majority members down the drain, supporting Jewish interests over white interests, wrecking the economy, wars without end in places no one can find on the map, and importing tons of Third World people who hat us.

    So after thinking about the question, I threw back my cup of Joe, and replied, “It’s not too bad.”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  40. WHAT says:
    @Sergey Krieger
    Still, they cannot produce top science talent and have been lagging for decades now in military and other technologies. Chinese are intelligent but not That intelligent. Andrei was rightfully dismissive of IQ because it cannot explain how supposedly super smart Chinese and other north eastern Asians cannot produce scientific breakthroughs and there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.

    Asians produce plenty of scientific works in various fields, and at some nearby point quantity will turn into quality as well. Nobel Prize here is not an indicator, because it is very slow in general and very obviously represents pro-european bias in nominant selection.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  41. I visit China ~1-2 yearly for business, but only since 2010. My first hand experience leads me to believe that they are not something to be afraid of and are never destined for world domination. They have cultural issues that mesh poorly with industrial civilization. Every expat you meet will have 20 stories about how screwed up things are. I could talk for hours on the subject. In China a problem is NOT something to solve. It is something to avoid being blamed for. Little problems are shunned and not discussed so they snowball into bigger and bigger problems. The ideas that things should work (at all) and that you should strive to make your part of the world better (as opposed to profiting from the current FUBAR situation) also do not seem to have caught on.

    Also ultimately the thesis of this article is that central planning works, and I have to cry BS on that one. Central planning ultimately fails for basic reasons: human corruption, and the distributed nature of knowledge and incentives. China is incredibly corrupt. Any finite number of geniuses [in central planning] is still dumber than an infinite number of morons [spread throughout the country with local knowledge inaccessible to the central planners] (quote from Thomas Sowell?). Any time decision makers are insulated from the consequences of their decisions they will make bad decisions (forever), even if they are angels. A high performing organization is run by the sergeants, not the generals. The sergeants know what is going on and must deal with the consequences of their decisions. China is run by the generals, and because of the whole “problem” paradigm above, their generals have perhaps less reliable information than any generals on earth. I wish them well all the same. They may accomplish some mischief, so we should be on our guard, but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let’s hope we stop that process soon.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Generals, sergeants, etc all assume that its still humans running the operation. In a world of digital centralization, machine learning and big data, such assumptions should be questioned. Technology changes the practicality of many endeavors once thought impossible.
    , @Joe Wong
    It seems you are very resentful that you cannot rise higher than sergeant but you have to do all the hard work while the officers know nothing take all the credits.

    Has it ever occurred to you that the privates may have the same view about you as you view about the generals, i.e. you are just another layer of central planning that stops the world turning? You are a fine specimen of the one look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye.

    China is rising while the USA is declining; the bad mouthing the expats spewed out in China only shows the expats are jealous, resentful and fearful of Chinese achievements.
    , @jacques sheete
    Skull.. your whole comment applies equally well to what's going on in the US. especially the parts about corruption and lack of accountability.

    ...but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let’s hope we stop that process soon.
     
    The evidence seems clear that "we" (i.e. our collectivist parasitic rulers) have been busy committing "suicide" on we, the masses, for some time. If it were not for abundant natural resources, cheap energy sources, and creative thievery, all of which have been mostly squandered, the US would have gone completely "tits up" long ago.

    The process is a one-way street, I think.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  42. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sergey Krieger
    I wonder how many think Chinese project is sustainable long term considering size of their population and resources limits? They are already drowning in debt and ecological consequences of their growth. Last time I was in China in 2001 the air was dirty I could barely see. I guess it is a lot worse now.

    Its a lot better now. What the Party wants to improve, they do.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  43. Che Guava says:

    Random points, flow was better the first time.

    Deng’s ‘reforms’ were destroying not just the rurcommunes (in most places), but also rural education and health care.

    Also creating the floating labour army (50 million or so), who are not enjoying good conditions.

    The CPSU in Stalin times, was using the term ‘primitive socialist accumulation’. In Russia, post-collapse of USSR, mainly Jewish oligarchs, often descending from very minor functionaries, were to robbing the place, with co-ordinated assistance from co-ethnic neocon ‘advisors’ from the USA.

    In China, having warning from that, party hierarchs and managers of older industrial formations were playing the similar role.

    China is also to being congratulated on being serious about population control, but second and third trimester abortions are murder, and I would suggesting that any post-conception are.

    However, I am agreeing with the principie, only because humans are like a locust plague on the earth.

    Who is enjoying the sparkling SF world that Brown is describing?

    Party thieves, children of former state-business managers.

    Aiso stealing much tech, much on China’s high-speda rail is stolen from Japan, they put out tenders, but the only objective is theft.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong

    Aiso stealing much tech, much on China’s high-speda rail is stolen from Japan, they put out tenders, but the only objective is theft.
     
    It seems the Japanese not only denying their war crimes they are also copying the bad habit of the American by claiming credit where credit is not due.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  44. @Sergey Krieger
    Still, they cannot produce top science talent and have been lagging for decades now in military and other technologies. Chinese are intelligent but not That intelligent. Andrei was rightfully dismissive of IQ because it cannot explain how supposedly super smart Chinese and other north eastern Asians cannot produce scientific breakthroughs and there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.

    It is true that East Asians, at similar levels of development to European countries, tend to underperform relative to their IQ – possibly because of a lack of curiosity, or other factors.

    Still, there’s a lot of Chinese.

    Here is a good proxy for elite level scientific output: https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    China (WFC=6,500) is already a solid second to the United States (WFC=15,000), with more than 40% of its output.

    Now if it were to converge to the per capita performance of Taiwan (WFC=300), South Korea (WFC=1,000), Japan (WFC=2,500), it would soar past the United States.

    Nobel Prizes lag reality by around a generation. See the explosion of Japanese Nobel Prizes c.2000.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What's your proof that Asians underperform relative to their IQ?

    That link doesn't say much of anything and research output is a poor proxy for underperformance being that so much of China is still agrarian and so much of the West gets an artificial boost of fiat dsvelopement.

    Sounds like a meme lazy white people use to prove muh white superiority.
    , @Talha

    possibly because of a lack of curiosity, or other factors
     
    Wait! There are other factors apart from IQ at work??!! Other factors that make a difference??!!

    Heresy!!!

    Anyway - case study...

    High IQ White Nerd Taps Into Inner Tough Low IQ Colored Guy to Beat High IQ Colored Nerd - Result: Gets White Girl
    https://youtu.be/Fka8YejPM8g?t=1m5s
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  45. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @backwoods Bob
    Western Capitalism, if that is what the United States is, means tens of thousands of new regulations each year written by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats who self-select into those jobs by virtue of their psychopathy.

    I have never seen more sadistic, malicious people than petty tyrants in permitting offices, inspector offices, IRS, EPA, OSHA, you name it.

    I have carefully avoided, tried to survive away from these tyrants but still be a private sector producer who has to perform for his customers.

    I've tried in some regions of the country, but in my home state you can't even fix a fence without having to hire a surveyor. Can't replace a sidewalk pad without an excavation permit. Cannot hire a 15 year old to operate a weed whacker or anybody under 18 for any construction work whatsoever. It is a felony, with all the approbation attached to child labor exploitation. To teach him a trade that can sustain a family for the rest of his life. This is a crime, in the land of the free.

    So yes, of course China could grow at ten percent a year. They won't jail you for hiring a sixteen year old. She can't sue you for sexual harassment because you called her "young lady" or some other horror like hearing an off-color joke. No hiring preferences, no equal-opportunity hoops to jump through. No permitting, no infinite and contradictory regulations.

    Politically, in China you keep your mouth shut. Economically, they have a lot more freedom in many ways.

    You can do anything in China politically except try to overthrow the government; try setting up an organization to throw the government in the US and see how far they’ll let you, in the same way. There’s relatively less political freedom in China, but its not a fundamental difference thanks to the increasing oppressive nature of the US society as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Backwoods Bob
    Yes, I did not mean to suggest the USA was night-and-day difference in political freedom.

    It is also a very interesting contrast between the state media in communist china and the state media in the USA, following Chomsky's Propaganda Model.

    Many hate Chomsky because he is a "liberal", but his Propaganda Media Model is one of the best contributions to social science I have ever seen.

    Along with lack of political freedom we have "voluntary" state media with CNN, MSNBC, NY Times etc. putting out propaganda and suppressing/harassing independent journalism.

    What's the difference between state run media in the USA and state run media in China? A lot: in China, they pay you to publish propaganda. In the USA they pay you to publish propaganda.

    So that subtle difference explains a lot.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  46. Without the Mao Era, I would be living in and writing about another Indonesia, Columbia or Libya. It’s that simple.

    There are, or were, three other Chinese societies we can look at. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore.

    All successful, in fact considerably more successful than mainland China. Mainly because they embraced capitalism earlier than the mainland did.

    As Anatoly Karlin hints at, the main reason for China’s success is that it is populated by Chinese people.

    Comparing China to Indonesia, Colombia, or Libya shows complete ignorance of racial differences. Southeast Asians, mestizos, and Arabs are all racially inferior to Chinese people.

    I’ll also note that the author appears to be ashamed of his own ethnic heritage based on his frequent uses of “imperial” as a pejorative.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  47. @jacques sheete

    How Can Western Capitalism Beat This?
     
    No. And that's because it's a plutocratic, oligarchic, militaristic, debt fueled, parasitic, war socialism type of capitalism designed from the start to benefit the few at the expense of the many.

    I know nothing about China, but from what I know about other Asian countries and how the Chinese fare in them, I suspect they employ a somewhat purer and less militaristic type of capitalism there. It likely resembles the the freer capitalism, (minus the militaristic aggression) that characterized that of the US during the 19th century, and which died at the end of that century during the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson, primarily,


    It is now widely understood that the United States in mid twentieth century is a Leviathan Corporate State—a political economy dominated by giant multinational corporations whose extensive domain, operating with the levers of government, extends from the local retail outlet to firms negotiating for rights to explore oil deposits offshore of Saigon.

    But the corporate state…is by no means a new phenomenon. The corporate leviathan began to emerge at the turn of the twentieth century, after an era of substantial laissez-faire had proceeded to industrialize and urbanize the nation

    A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State EDITED BY RONALD RADOSH AND MURRAY N. ROTHBARD,1972, p
    https://mises.org/system/tdf/A%20New%20History%20of%20Leviathan_2.pdf?file=1&type=document


     

    Let's hope the same fate doesn't befall Chinese capitalism.

    I know nothing about China, but from what I know about other Asian countries and how the Chinese fare in them, I suspect they employ a somewhat purer and less militaristic type of capitalism there. It likely resembles the the freer capitalism, (minus the militaristic aggression) that characterized that of the US during the 19th century, and which died at the end of that century during the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson, primarily,

    I’m glad you admit that you know nothing.

    While the article you commented on is bad, it describes that China does not have “free capitalism”.

    You’ll know that the US economy continued growing at its traditional 3-4% pace after the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson.

    You are a religious fanatic. I am offended that you libertarian faggots still exist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    I’m glad you admit that you know nothing.

     

    And I'll be happy to admit that I have little time for trolls who can't even admit that they don't know JS, and therefore feel the need to initiate really simple minded personal attacks.

    Don't you have anything better to offer?

    'Bye now!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  48. @Priss Factor
    then traveling 12,500 kilometers around this country in 2012 to write 44 Days Backpacking in China, that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

    What are you talking about? The West is under the rule of PC. This damn PC teaches white people that they suck. Google-search for top US scientists and you get some Negro who invented Peanut Butter and other blacks.
    PC says West has no right to moral pride... except in spreading homos and 'white guilt' and sucking up to Jews and Negroes and celebrating Diversity.
    Also, when it comes to 'creativity', we are told that white people are bland and generic. It's the Negroes who be 'creative' and shi* because they come up with 'twerking' and wearing pants low and nursery-rhyming F-bombs.
    And we are told we need MASS IMMIGRATION from Asia because white people suck at math and etc. So, we need Asians to do all the brainy work.

    China during Mao was also failing because of its own PC. Mao could have combined best of Chinese culture and tradition with modernity and industrialization; instead, he waged war on Chinese tradition and culture. He destroyed Chinese society and then let loose the Red Guards or Tards to wreck all of China and drive intellectuals to suicide or to pig farms to clean pig poo.
    Chiang Kai Shek wanted to preserve the best of traditional China while implementing reforms and modernization borrowed from the West. He revered both Confucius and Jesus, and he understood the need for modernization.
    But Mao waged war on Chinese culture and then took only the worst aspects of Western Thought: the ideology of radical self-righteous hatred. His idea of modernization made no sense, destroying much of China during the Great Leap Forward and killing tens of millions.

    So, when did China begin to recover? It was after Mao, and what was the proper formula? It was neo-fascism though the Chinese elites never called it that.
    Fascism is about the integration of various -isms and modes. Instead of seeing them as hopeless opposites or diehard contradictions, they were seen as complementary, mutually interdependent, and integral to the whole.
    So, by the rules of fascism, modernity need not smash all of tradition as 'reactionary'. Socialism didn't mean all of capitalism had to be suppressed. Internationalism didn't mean nationalism was anathema. Rather, nationalisms around the world could be the building block of a mutually respecting international order.

    So, the proper formula for China's success was nationalism, capitalism, socialism, restoration of some degree of traditionalism, and ethno-centrism. New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.

    The reason for America's problems in recent times has to do with the fading of white race-ism and American nationalism. When white Americans worked together as a people and identified as a European family, their lives were far more meaningful and their work was far more productive. Such race-ism led to the creation of a magnificent country.

    But look at the current US. Unlike China where the Chinese elites lead the Chinese masses in a spirit of neo-fascism, the US has rule by globalists who despise white Americans and push for greater diversity so that white Americans will be further depressed and even more shamed by PC as the scourge of humanity. White Americans are a subject people, like Hindus under the British or Chinese under Manchu domination.

    The Chinese way is like the Zionist way. (Zionist nationalism in Israel is good. Zionist imperialism in West Bank and Wars for Israel is not good.) Yes, socialism is a part of China's rise, but not the Maoist kind. It's socialism mixed with capitalism in the spirit of nationalism. It's called neo-fascism.

    Granted, one good thing about the communist legacy is this. Though communism was a disaster -- Maoism esp sucked --, it did instill the Chinese with a sense of dignity for the common man. So, the neo-fascism of China has a humanist basis, and that has prevented Chinese from becoming too arrogant and chauvinistic.

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of 'Aryan' superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.
    One good thing about communism was it taught Chinese to accept being human than trying to be god-like.

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of ‘Aryan’ superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.

    Yes, that’s the myth many of us have been taught, but can you support the claim? Are you able to recognize war time propaganda when you encounter it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    Yes, that’s the myth many of us have been taught, but can you support the claim? Are you able to recognize war time propaganda when you encounter it?

    OK, so am I to believe that Hitler's MEIN KAMPF was about "I love everyone"?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  49. George says:

    High-speed rail for California is stupid. Why? Airplanes are the way to go. Maybe China and France have population densities that can support HSTs but not California.

    One theory is that China will collapse the same way the Empire of Germany collapsed. Lack of rule of law, crazy leaders and militarists get control (unlike here in the good ole USA).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    US is two out of three on your list, thank goodness your gays are saving you from the last!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  50. Che Guava says:

    One more, it is all to depending on cheap energy.

    Was reading an article, earlier, about ‘rise of AI’.

    With no cheap energy, that will be falling apart yery quickly.

    Machines are capital-efficent with cheap energy, but much iess energy-efficent than people.

    All of the remnant Asian Communist states (with the possible exception of Laos), are close to national socialsm.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I don't see cheap energy ending anytime soon. Do you?

    Obviously if it does to any vast level, the consequences would be catastrophic, not only for China, but modern human civilization as we know it.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  51. China has always been good at mobilizing the masses to do things. That doesn’t mean it will ever surpass the US or even Japan for that matter. Some cultural deficiencies that resulted in the century of humiliation are still there. Mao knew this and tried to eradicate the poisonous aspects with grand failures like the cultural revolution, which destroyed both the good and the bad. There are too many cultural and systemic problems still there, covered up behind the sky rises and glitz bullet trains.

    A big fat person is strong and intimidating to the untrained eye, but will never beat a smaller, leaner warrior in any fight.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  52. @jilles dykstra
    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.
    Therefore the dictatorial communist system is bound to disappear.
    I made the comparison with Holland in the 17th century, and Philips II in feudal catholic Spain.
    What we see now in Spain resembles the 17th century clash, I suppose.

    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.

    Unfortunately, the American experience shows that the big winners of the economic liberty game also win the game of political liberty and then are free to change the rules of the game to benefit themselves at the expense of others and are at liberty to impose virtual serfdom an the rest of us.

    In particular, the big winners of the world wars, economically speaking, gained pretty complete hegemony over any competition, both foreign and domestic, using the handy instrument of centralized government and it can be seen in the war collectivism that was prepared prior to WW1, and honed to a fine edge in the subsequent two big ones.

    It may be that one reason for China’s successes is that they have not yet squandered their wealth in military adventurism all over the world as has the US for the century and a quarter.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    It may be that one reason for China’s successes is that they have not yet squandered their wealth in military adventurism all over the world as has the US for the century and a quarter.
     
    Its a very large reason, yes. A large quantity of wealth was spent on infrastructure instead of defense - both can be useless spending, but all in all, ghost cities probably become more useful than endless military adventurism all other things considered.

    For one, fewer people want to kill you for building ghost cities as opposed to, say, bombing their homes.

    , @Seamus Padraig
    That's the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don't last too long.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  53. @Sergey Krieger
    Still, they cannot produce top science talent and have been lagging for decades now in military and other technologies. Chinese are intelligent but not That intelligent. Andrei was rightfully dismissive of IQ because it cannot explain how supposedly super smart Chinese and other north eastern Asians cannot produce scientific breakthroughs and there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.

    …there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.

    That’s a novel take. Anyway, forgive me if I’ve assumed that you mean Nobel prize winners, but the prizes seem like a farce to me and indicate one thing, i.e., that the recipient has been approved by the cliques who run such things.

    Take O-bomb-a’s “peace” prize, for instance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    Yes Novel. I mean science, not peace or literature.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  54. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @George
    High-speed rail for California is stupid. Why? Airplanes are the way to go. Maybe China and France have population densities that can support HSTs but not California.

    One theory is that China will collapse the same way the Empire of Germany collapsed. Lack of rule of law, crazy leaders and militarists get control (unlike here in the good ole USA).

    US is two out of three on your list, thank goodness your gays are saving you from the last!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  55. @Thorfinnsson

    I know nothing about China, but from what I know about other Asian countries and how the Chinese fare in them, I suspect they employ a somewhat purer and less militaristic type of capitalism there. It likely resembles the the freer capitalism, (minus the militaristic aggression) that characterized that of the US during the 19th century, and which died at the end of that century during the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson, primarily,
     
    I'm glad you admit that you know nothing.

    While the article you commented on is bad, it describes that China does not have "free capitalism".

    You'll know that the US economy continued growing at its traditional 3-4% pace after the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson.

    You are a religious fanatic. I am offended that you libertarian faggots still exist.

    I’m glad you admit that you know nothing.

    And I’ll be happy to admit that I have little time for trolls who can’t even admit that they don’t know JS, and therefore feel the need to initiate really simple minded personal attacks.

    Don’t you have anything better to offer?

    ‘Bye now!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  56. @Jeff J. Brown
    Seriously, Max, your racism is over the top.

    I know Brits who talk about the Irish the way you talk about the Chinese. So, I guess that makes me a monkey too:

    http://chinarising.puntopress.com/2015/10/01/slavs-and-the-yellow-peril-are-niggers-brutes-and-beasts-in-the-eyes-of-western-empire-the-saker-44-days-radio-sinoland-2015-10-1/

    Jeff J. Brown in China

    The facts are not racist, they simply are. Referencing Saker is risible. The man is, at best, poorly informed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    The facts are not racist
     
    Don't play into this frame.

    There is nothing wrong with racism.

    Racism is objectively correct.

    Jeff J. Brown is a man ashamed of his own ethnic heritage.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  57. @jacques sheete

    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.
     
    Unfortunately, the American experience shows that the big winners of the economic liberty game also win the game of political liberty and then are free to change the rules of the game to benefit themselves at the expense of others and are at liberty to impose virtual serfdom an the rest of us.

    In particular, the big winners of the world wars, economically speaking, gained pretty complete hegemony over any competition, both foreign and domestic, using the handy instrument of centralized government and it can be seen in the war collectivism that was prepared prior to WW1, and honed to a fine edge in the subsequent two big ones.

    It may be that one reason for China's successes is that they have not yet squandered their wealth in military adventurism all over the world as has the US for the century and a quarter.

    It may be that one reason for China’s successes is that they have not yet squandered their wealth in military adventurism all over the world as has the US for the century and a quarter.

    Its a very large reason, yes. A large quantity of wealth was spent on infrastructure instead of defense – both can be useless spending, but all in all, ghost cities probably become more useful than endless military adventurism all other things considered.

    For one, fewer people want to kill you for building ghost cities as opposed to, say, bombing their homes.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  58. @Quartermaster
    The facts are not racist, they simply are. Referencing Saker is risible. The man is, at best, poorly informed.

    The facts are not racist

    Don’t play into this frame.

    There is nothing wrong with racism.

    Racism is objectively correct.

    Jeff J. Brown is a man ashamed of his own ethnic heritage.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Jeff J. Brown is a man ashamed of his own ethnic heritage.

     

    If its any consolation, a brief check into his history indicates that its not as simple as that. He's simply a hardcore Communist, one of the Old Guard and a true believer; he's shows no ethnic embarrassment toward Russians, for example.

    As such, he's simply very pro-Communist wherever it would exist. If France became Communist, he would probably be enthusiastically supportive of it, for example, even if it was all white.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  59. @lucidian
    China is a third world country. China is a thieving country. The Chinese have ZERO respect for intellectual property. Chinese people, like the Japanese, are obedient, and can be marshaled by their leaders to partake in great projects. But, like the Japanese, they do not invent. They are not a creative people.

    Chinese are well known as the most racist people on the planet. They are not a fair people. They are an aggressive, cold-hearted people.

    China may yet eclipse America, but only because America is intent on destroying itself. Not because China is virtuous. China is a cancer.

    China has ascended in a parasitic way. They have taken advantage of America's stupidity and kindness and trust. If America regains her pride, and wakes up to the Chinese plunder and puts an end to it, China's rise will be severely curtailed.

    Exactly correct. China’s economy is a bubble and they have been spending money like a drunken sailor on things that simply don’t make sense (empty cities are just one example). In technology, China has been a parasite, stealing from anyone they can. The Soviet Union was the same way. China’s advance will come to a crashing halt for the same reason the Soviet’s advance did.

    With the elevation of Xi to a position of Second Great Helmsman, after Mao’s Great Helmsman, there will be a crackdown, and if the FedGov comes to its senses, will realize we have educated, and trained our enemies, as well as equipped them. The US relationship with Red China makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    If Duterte wants to win the war on drugs he must microchip all the Westerners in the Philippines, those fat pink skin pigs are harmful to the Philippines by running drugs as CIA subversion operatives and parasites sucking the Filipino's blood.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  60. polistra says:

    If you think it was “stolen from the natives” you didn’t learn anything from growing up in Oklahoma. You’re sticking with an unexamined Yankee bias.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  61. @Skullcrusher
    I visit China ~1-2 yearly for business, but only since 2010. My first hand experience leads me to believe that they are not something to be afraid of and are never destined for world domination. They have cultural issues that mesh poorly with industrial civilization. Every expat you meet will have 20 stories about how screwed up things are. I could talk for hours on the subject. In China a problem is NOT something to solve. It is something to avoid being blamed for. Little problems are shunned and not discussed so they snowball into bigger and bigger problems. The ideas that things should work (at all) and that you should strive to make your part of the world better (as opposed to profiting from the current FUBAR situation) also do not seem to have caught on.

    Also ultimately the thesis of this article is that central planning works, and I have to cry BS on that one. Central planning ultimately fails for basic reasons: human corruption, and the distributed nature of knowledge and incentives. China is incredibly corrupt. Any finite number of geniuses [in central planning] is still dumber than an infinite number of morons [spread throughout the country with local knowledge inaccessible to the central planners] (quote from Thomas Sowell?). Any time decision makers are insulated from the consequences of their decisions they will make bad decisions (forever), even if they are angels. A high performing organization is run by the sergeants, not the generals. The sergeants know what is going on and must deal with the consequences of their decisions. China is run by the generals, and because of the whole "problem" paradigm above, their generals have perhaps less reliable information than any generals on earth. I wish them well all the same. They may accomplish some mischief, so we should be on our guard, but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let's hope we stop that process soon.

    Generals, sergeants, etc all assume that its still humans running the operation. In a world of digital centralization, machine learning and big data, such assumptions should be questioned. Technology changes the practicality of many endeavors once thought impossible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Skullcrusher
    I can't disagree with your statements but do not understand their relevance. Are you saying China will beat the West thru superior machine learning? Please clarify.
    , @jbwilson24
    You just disqualified yourself from invoking machine learning. You obviously have no idea how many humans it takes to keep machine learning applications running.

    The great irony is that you Asia pumpers seem to have forgotten a lot of the lessons that have already been learned. Top-down command and control economies don't work, for a variety of reasons. Adding 'machine learning' and other forms of decision making won't change that. The failure of cybernetics and operations research when applied to urban systems is but one example of a legacy that Asians seem spectacularly poor at discovering.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  62. @Che Guava
    One more, it is all to depending on cheap energy.

    Was reading an article, earlier, about 'rise of AI'.

    With no cheap energy, that will be falling apart yery quickly.

    Machines are capital-efficent with cheap energy, but much iess energy-efficent than people.

    All of the remnant Asian Communist states (with the possible exception of Laos), are close to national socialsm.

    I don’t see cheap energy ending anytime soon. Do you?

    Obviously if it does to any vast level, the consequences would be catastrophic, not only for China, but modern human civilization as we know it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Daniel,

    Was not to implying that it would be exceptional for China. Glad you were to catch my implication, though I was not saying it directly. I am just saying that the glittering edifices that Mr. Brown is describing, and sure, I am understanding the attraction of such spectacles, are on ever shallower ground of resources.

    Fossil-fuel shortages already here (for the world), doubt you would consider 'fracking' sane. I do not.

    Abe, PM here, is wanting to reactivate nuclear power plants. Much as I dislike many of his ideas, it is the only sensible thing to do. The plants are there, fuel is there, pointless to not using it.

    ... but then, safety. The incident that was bringing tears to my eyes was on the other side of Japan to Fukushima number 1.

    Earlier, a trio of fools were mixing powdered fuel in a metal bucket, it went critical, they all died.

    There were one or two similar incidents here in that time.

    Fukushima number one is continuing to pour highly radioactive poison into the Pacific, almost every major train station in the prefecture has a solar-powered radiation metre outside, millisieverts per hour.

    Also necessary is near-perfect recycling, particularly of metals. Also shortages.

    At the end of summer, I was going to a beach just north of Tokyo, the tide-line was looking as if it had leaves from a novel species of kelp, looking much like shredded plastic bags, I knelt to feel, sure, just a tide-line of plastic.

    Chinese-registered ships are the worst offenders for garbage discharge and just to throwing things from the deck, in this part of the world, sure, not the only, only the worst.

    Excuse the length.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  63. Miro23 says:

    …that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

    It takes a lot to bring down Empires.

    With the British it took;

    1) The trench warfare of WW1 (unexpected shock).
    2) The WW2 surrender of Singapore (to the racially inferior Japanese!!)
    3) Withdrawal from India (unable to control mass Indian nationalism)
    4) Suez and the realization that it was American power that mattered.
    5) British industrial failure. Excess debt. Early 1970′s loss of residual Sterling reserve currency status (oil balances move into the US Dollar) and 25% p.a. inflation.

    It was mostly military, but finally an economic story.

    If the US Empire is following in the footsteps of the British then the list might be:

    1) Vietnam (massive cost for eventual failure).
    2) The 9/11 Deception proving to be “uninvestigateable”
    3) Enormously costly Middle east wars for no result, driven by a treasonous Zionist minority.
    4? Probable withdrawal from Empire?
    5? American industrial failure. Excess debt. Loss of US Dollar reserve currency status (oil balances + world trade denominated in some other unit?). Inflation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @1RW
    You forgot
    0) Being fought to a standstill by poorly equipped but highly motivated Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  64. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    The facts are not racist
     
    Don't play into this frame.

    There is nothing wrong with racism.

    Racism is objectively correct.

    Jeff J. Brown is a man ashamed of his own ethnic heritage.

    Jeff J. Brown is a man ashamed of his own ethnic heritage.

    If its any consolation, a brief check into his history indicates that its not as simple as that. He’s simply a hardcore Communist, one of the Old Guard and a true believer; he’s shows no ethnic embarrassment toward Russians, for example.

    As such, he’s simply very pro-Communist wherever it would exist. If France became Communist, he would probably be enthusiastically supportive of it, for example, even if it was all white.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I see.

    Being a communist is perhaps even more embarrassing than being a libertarian.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  65. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    It is true that East Asians, at similar levels of development to European countries, tend to underperform relative to their IQ - possibly because of a lack of curiosity, or other factors.

    Still, there's a lot of Chinese.

    Here is a good proxy for elite level scientific output: https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    China (WFC=6,500) is already a solid second to the United States (WFC=15,000), with more than 40% of its output.

    Now if it were to converge to the per capita performance of Taiwan (WFC=300), South Korea (WFC=1,000), Japan (WFC=2,500), it would soar past the United States.

    Nobel Prizes lag reality by around a generation. See the explosion of Japanese Nobel Prizes c.2000.

    What’s your proof that Asians underperform relative to their IQ?

    That link doesn’t say much of anything and research output is a poor proxy for underperformance being that so much of China is still agrarian and so much of the West gets an artificial boost of fiat dsvelopement.

    Sounds like a meme lazy white people use to prove muh white superiority.

    Read More
    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Was not talking about China (in fact clearly implied it has plenty of room for convergence). Read more carefully.

    Japan has 40% of the US population, no useless NAMs. Only produces 1/6 the elite scientific output of the United States.

    Has twice the UK population; produces less elite scientific output than the UK.

    https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  66. @Joe Stalin
    I was watching a program on space exploration and it stated that after the wind down of Apollo, Nixon had a choice of a cheaper Space Shuttle vs. an expensive Mars mission to keep NASA going. I think that after Trump builds the wall, kicks out the illegals, makes Puerto Rico independent, we might have some funds to try going in that direction. Of course, I will predict that like in the 1960s, all the African-American "leaders" will complain that their "human needs" come first.

    Bringing all the troops and fleets an planes home is also essential.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  67. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.
     
    Except that China doesn't practice ethnonationalism - and its a "crime against the nation" to engage in praise of Han as a race("Han chauvinism" is the exact crime), one that isn't prosecuted very often but it is pretty clear what is the government's position on that: it is just going to inspire fracture. Essentially, its a hate crime if you want to put it in Western terms. Affirmative action is given to minorities as well, to a reasonable extent. Its not Japan.

    That said, you can't bash the Han and there's no nothing like Western self-hate, of course.

    Chinese nationalism is a rigorous practice of "civic nationalism", the type that Unz commentators often tend to ridicule but it clearly works for them. Having an unified philosophy can act much like an unified religion in bringing people together and creating a shared sense of values.

    Nice nonsense about civic nationalism. Most Chinese dwell in very homogeneous cities and towns surrounded almost solely by their own regional co-ethnics. The end result is essentially the same as Japan (and Korea, ect.) for many hundreds of millions of Chinese people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    As usual, ignorance about China. Consider that it pretty obviously has affirmative action for their minorities and showing "racial pride" is illegal(unlike Japan, for example), or just read SCMP for their efforts to plug "African dance" and other bits of foreign culture. There's a heavy expectation of meritocracy but no empire can afford to be ethnonationalist and China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  68. @Anonymous
    What's your proof that Asians underperform relative to their IQ?

    That link doesn't say much of anything and research output is a poor proxy for underperformance being that so much of China is still agrarian and so much of the West gets an artificial boost of fiat dsvelopement.

    Sounds like a meme lazy white people use to prove muh white superiority.

    Was not talking about China (in fact clearly implied it has plenty of room for convergence). Read more carefully.

    Japan has 40% of the US population, no useless NAMs. Only produces 1/6 the elite scientific output of the United States.

    Has twice the UK population; produces less elite scientific output than the UK.

    https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jey
    Then how do you explain France does much worse than the UK in the so called elite scientific output, although they have roughly the same population? I'd venture whoever has the bigger say due to its legacy and language advantage has the bigger influence on this kind of indeces, just look at the world university rankings by some famous media every year; It's a guarantee that UK/US universities will take up almost all seats in the top 20 (incidentally the young generation of scientists in the top US universities are mostly Asians, like the overrepresented Jews in the last century, many of whom became Nobel prize winners in their later life). I am not suggesting all these kinds of indeces/rankings are fakenews, but they are not as objective as you may think it is. That's why China would ditch international ratings by some credit agencies to sell its sovereign bonds, establish AIIB, SCO, OBOR, etc in hope of setting the standards by herself.

    So far the US is still a leading nation in science and technology but the US is an exception, because as a superpower it can attract the brightest from all over the world. Europe is another story. Seems to me that the EU is becoming more and more irrelevant in the new industries (internet, ecommerce, AI, semiconductors, etc) and in global market. The UK has London as a financial hub to remind us its relevancy; France and Italy sell overpriced luxury goods to make some people feel good about themselves; Germany produces some interesting mechanic products but if Japan or even Korea could have the same single EU market as Germany does, I don't think German goods would be competitive enough to compete against, say, Japanese cars, robots, cameras, korean TVs, or Taiwanese chips.

    , @hyperbola
    Now that Nature was bought by the zionists (Springer Verlag), they publish all kinds of dodgy propaganda. Seems to be a trait: sell garbage at inflated prices with propaganda.

    The Israel Lobby in Germany | Freemasonry - Scribd
    https://es.scribd.com/document/236970539/The-Israel-Lobby-in-Germany

    Axel Springer Chef : "Ich bin ein Zionist" - YouTube
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu4ywLZc_VQ
    , @Anonymous
    How bout you think more carefully instead of falling back on lazy memes.

    You said East Asians, so you were clearly talking about China even if you tried to cover your ass later on.

    Your conclusion is still a reach, and speaks more of you trying to reach a conclusion that you like than any strong insight.

    Japan's economy was booming in the 80's and then they made a deal with the West (devil) and ever since then their economy has stagnated. Their people work like 80 hours a week since their government is loading up on Western debt.

    So yeah, when you work so much you don't have as much free time to innovate. Same thing would happen to the West if America was buying all the Japanese junk debt and had to work 80 hours a week to get by.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  69. @Anonymous

    Jeff J. Brown is a man ashamed of his own ethnic heritage.

     

    If its any consolation, a brief check into his history indicates that its not as simple as that. He's simply a hardcore Communist, one of the Old Guard and a true believer; he's shows no ethnic embarrassment toward Russians, for example.

    As such, he's simply very pro-Communist wherever it would exist. If France became Communist, he would probably be enthusiastically supportive of it, for example, even if it was all white.

    I see.

    Being a communist is perhaps even more embarrassing than being a libertarian.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  70. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    Nice nonsense about civic nationalism. Most Chinese dwell in very homogeneous cities and towns surrounded almost solely by their own regional co-ethnics. The end result is essentially the same as Japan (and Korea, ect.) for many hundreds of millions of Chinese people.

    As usual, ignorance about China. Consider that it pretty obviously has affirmative action for their minorities and showing “racial pride” is illegal(unlike Japan, for example), or just read SCMP for their efforts to plug “African dance” and other bits of foreign culture. There’s a heavy expectation of meritocracy but no empire can afford to be ethnonationalist and China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous

    ignorance about China
     
    Just the ignorance that comes from having lived there (Suzhou, Wuhan), and having traveled around the country and the rest of East Asia. Affirmative action in China is a drop in the bucket and barely relevant. Racial pride in China is tied up with national pride, as it is in Japan and Korea, and how it was in Europe and the US before runaway immigration and multiculturalism took over. When Chinese take pride in China, they aren't thinking about how proud they are to be in the same nation as Uighurs or Tibetans. You have a rose-colored view of how racial identity on a personal level works in China.

    China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.
     
    China's "multiracialism" is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren't even remotely comparable. China's minorities are far more similar to the majority population than the minority groups of the West are. Not to mention, they've been inhabiting those regions for thousands of years. You should go ahead and ask them in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag.

    When China experiences Western-style diversity, then you can come back and tell me all about how well civic nationalism works in China and how it is a model for the West.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  71. @Anonymous

    New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.
     
    Except that China doesn't practice ethnonationalism - and its a "crime against the nation" to engage in praise of Han as a race("Han chauvinism" is the exact crime), one that isn't prosecuted very often but it is pretty clear what is the government's position on that: it is just going to inspire fracture. Essentially, its a hate crime if you want to put it in Western terms. Affirmative action is given to minorities as well, to a reasonable extent. Its not Japan.

    That said, you can't bash the Han and there's no nothing like Western self-hate, of course.

    Chinese nationalism is a rigorous practice of "civic nationalism", the type that Unz commentators often tend to ridicule but it clearly works for them. Having an unified philosophy can act much like an unified religion in bringing people together and creating a shared sense of values.

    Except that China doesn’t practice ethnonationalism – and its a “crime against the nation” to engage in praise of Han as a race(“Han chauvinism” is the exact crime), one that isn’t prosecuted very often but it is pretty clear what is the government’s position on that

    Ethno-nationalism and national chauvinism are two different things. One is about pride of identity and culture and defense of territory. The other is about acting BETTER than other peoples and nations.
    There is certainly Chinese nationalism.
    And even though this nationalism isn’t always explicitly pro-Han, Chinese nationalism is defacto Han pride and culture because most Chinese are pro-Han. It’s like Americanism used to mean pretty much WHITE Americanism before the change in immigration laws and promotion of Diversity as the new identity of America.
    Also, the Han-run government ensures Han encroachment and domination of Uighur and Tibetan territories.

    In a way, Chinese suppression of explicit Han nationalism is to rule over non-Han people. Chinese do this in the name of ‘brotherhood of man’ and benevolence. But those are justifications to exert power over others.
    It’s like what the US does in the Middle East. US suppresses overt anti-Muslim rhetoric precisely because it wants to meddle in the Middle East. If the US government expressed overt hostility to Muslim World, even Saudis would have to stand up to US power.

    Granted, the difference is Chinese are maintaining control over their own territory whereas US invades and interferes abroad. But China is a kind of empire nation… like the US, Iran, Russia, and Turkey. And of course so many crazy-quilt nations of Latin America and Africa.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  72. @jacques sheete

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of ‘Aryan’ superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.
     
    Yes, that's the myth many of us have been taught, but can you support the claim? Are you able to recognize war time propaganda when you encounter it?

    Yes, that’s the myth many of us have been taught, but can you support the claim? Are you able to recognize war time propaganda when you encounter it?

    OK, so am I to believe that Hitler’s MEIN KAMPF was about “I love everyone”?

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    OK, so am I to believe that Hitler’s MEIN KAMPF was about “I love everyone”?

     

    OK, so am I to believe that you know anything but the mythology of Hitler and Mein Kampf?

    Here you go; disabuse yerself of some foolishness...

    “… this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth.

    If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler's Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions…”

    Murray Rothbard, Revisionism for Our Time
    Mr. Rothbard was an American Jew and an historian of the very highest caliber.
    http://mises.org/daily/2592

     

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  73. Che Guava says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I don't see cheap energy ending anytime soon. Do you?

    Obviously if it does to any vast level, the consequences would be catastrophic, not only for China, but modern human civilization as we know it.

    Daniel,

    Was not to implying that it would be exceptional for China. Glad you were to catch my implication, though I was not saying it directly. I am just saying that the glittering edifices that Mr. Brown is describing, and sure, I am understanding the attraction of such spectacles, are on ever shallower ground of resources.

    Fossil-fuel shortages already here (for the world), doubt you would consider ‘fracking’ sane. I do not.

    Abe, PM here, is wanting to reactivate nuclear power plants. Much as I dislike many of his ideas, it is the only sensible thing to do. The plants are there, fuel is there, pointless to not using it.

    … but then, safety. The incident that was bringing tears to my eyes was on the other side of Japan to Fukushima number 1.

    Earlier, a trio of fools were mixing powdered fuel in a metal bucket, it went critical, they all died.

    There were one or two similar incidents here in that time.

    Fukushima number one is continuing to pour highly radioactive poison into the Pacific, almost every major train station in the prefecture has a solar-powered radiation metre outside, millisieverts per hour.

    Also necessary is near-perfect recycling, particularly of metals. Also shortages.

    At the end of summer, I was going to a beach just north of Tokyo, the tide-line was looking as if it had leaves from a novel species of kelp, looking much like shredded plastic bags, I knelt to feel, sure, just a tide-line of plastic.

    Chinese-registered ships are the worst offenders for garbage discharge and just to throwing things from the deck, in this part of the world, sure, not the only, only the worst.

    Excuse the length.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  74. denk says:
    @Max Payne
    As someone who has to visit the cesspool that is the PRC regularly I can say one thing....

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders.... but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially... but... it's still a far cry from "civilization". Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit... it's still a monkey.

    Regardless... whenever I hear someone talking about how they are learning French or German or Spanish I always tell them "learn Mandarin, everything else won't matter".

    Bombing hospitals, water, sewerage plants, bridges, market place, ..
    , wedding parties….

    Sniping at ambulances, bombing the rescue parties [double tapping]

    Impose embargoes on essential medicines, replacement parts for bombed out water/sewerage plants…..
    [effectively signing the death certificates of the bombed victims]

    MADeline Olbright
    ’500000 Iraqi children are worth it’
    [more like 2 million]

    Obliterating the whole neighborhood of a ‘suspect terrorist hideout’…
    just to make sure !

    Strafing at retreating , defenceless soldiers, civilians
    [shooting fish in a barrel]

    Tip of an iceberg !

    If these are the handiwork of ‘civilised‘ people,
    How could there be any ‘savages’, ‘barbarians’ left in this world ?

    P.S.
    Unlike all those trolls who yap like well trained parrots about ‘Mao the mass murderer’ , I can actually back up every single claim I make.
    Like so …

    Barbarians exhibit 1

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27e/080.html

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  75. @jacques sheete

    ...there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.
     
    That's a novel take. Anyway, forgive me if I've assumed that you mean Nobel prize winners, but the prizes seem like a farce to me and indicate one thing, i.e., that the recipient has been approved by the cliques who run such things.

    Take O-bomb-a's "peace" prize, for instance.

    Yes Novel. I mean science, not peace or literature.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  76. hyperbola says:

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China? Or why “capitalist” Japan and South Korea have four-times greater coverage of their population with high-speed trains than China. China has less coverage than west european nations in general. It does manage to beat the coverage in Turkey. Informative table here.

    Ranking internacional de trenes de alta velocidad

    https://www.goeuro.es/trenes/alta-velocidad

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China?
     
    If a country has two people in it and its only high-speed train line is one km long, that country has many times more kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail than China.
    , @jacques sheete

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China?
     
    They were probably forced on them by EU bankers and politicians in much the same way that Greece became indebted to the retard bastard$ for infrastructure that no one needs and few use.

    One can drive all over the country on highways that are barely used and that are in far superior condition to anything one sees in the US. They were likely built with loans from corrupt EU bankers imposed on the people by corrupt politicians over whom the people have no more control than we in the corrupt US have.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  77. @jacques sheete

    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.
     
    Unfortunately, the American experience shows that the big winners of the economic liberty game also win the game of political liberty and then are free to change the rules of the game to benefit themselves at the expense of others and are at liberty to impose virtual serfdom an the rest of us.

    In particular, the big winners of the world wars, economically speaking, gained pretty complete hegemony over any competition, both foreign and domestic, using the handy instrument of centralized government and it can be seen in the war collectivism that was prepared prior to WW1, and honed to a fine edge in the subsequent two big ones.

    It may be that one reason for China's successes is that they have not yet squandered their wealth in military adventurism all over the world as has the US for the century and a quarter.

    That’s the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don’t last too long.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    That’s the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don’t last too long.
     
    Their brevity may be benefits.

    Democracy is rule by morons, fools, and busybodies (just like all other forms of rule), has never really existed to any degree, and really shouldn't be allowed to because it can easily be subverted and become an agent of oppression.

    Capitalism has many forms and most of them end up being perverted by the big money bag shysters themselves which I think is the biggest problem. Another big problem is that crooks can gather capital relatively easily compared to hard working productive folk, and capital tends toward both monopolies and monopsonies, both of which involve a loss of freedom for the rest of us. Liberal as well as illiberal forms of capitalism wind up becoming tyrannical plut-oligarchical forms, such as we have in the USSA (United Socialist States of Amerika).

    The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  78. hyperbola says:

    A strange characteristic of this article is that the author mostly extols the ability of the chinese to do more or less the same thing as western capitalist societies (copying them?), but to do it “better and faster”.

    Do western capitalist societies actually have viable ways forward that should be copied? Or are the Chinese simply replicating the kind of “technological fragility” that the west seems to be creating? Building skyscrapers in days might actually be digging the hole in which one is trapped deeper and deeper. To say nothing of commercial exchange systems that rely on “continuous connectivity” to avoid catastrophic failures.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  79. Vidi says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Any culture despises all other cultures.

    Any culture despises all other cultures.

    Not all cultures despise all others. For example, most Europeans seriously respect the old Greeks and Romans.

    By the way, the Europeans really did throw their sewage onto the street in front of their homes. “Exito!”, or something like it, was shouted to warn passers-by to get under cover if they didn’t want the smelly brown stuff to land on them. I haven’t read Marco Polo’s writings, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that one of his top amazements was that Chinese cities were clean and didn’t smell like open sewers.

    Of course, Europeans don’t do such unsanitary things any more. My point is that morals change, behaviours change. Give the Chinese a few more years to adjust to their newfound prosperity, and they too will behave like prosperous people.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  80. Well, my head is not spinning, because this article is downright silly. There has been no miraculous growth in China and Far East in general, the data does not bear this out: http://www.brmandel.com/uploads/3/2/4/5/3245755/myth_of_asias-miracle.pdf

    Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution wrought outright havoc in Chinese industry, in particular aviation – many projects were delayed for decades because of that idiocy. Mao has been mostly destructive for China.

    And the other side of the coin of all those infrastructural projects is excessive, structural debt in China which is likely to crash with vengeance exceeding that of 2008 in the West. Theoretically their political system can withhold that, but counting on it in practice is like playing Russian roulette with 4 chambers out of 6 loaded.

    The grass is always greener behind the currently hyped fence. This article is very excitable, but rather dumb. It suffers of so called “traveller’s fallacy”: “I’ve been there, therefore I know everything about the problem”. Well, no. You still apply your misunderstandings to the problem.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  81. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    As usual, ignorance about China. Consider that it pretty obviously has affirmative action for their minorities and showing "racial pride" is illegal(unlike Japan, for example), or just read SCMP for their efforts to plug "African dance" and other bits of foreign culture. There's a heavy expectation of meritocracy but no empire can afford to be ethnonationalist and China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.

    ignorance about China

    Just the ignorance that comes from having lived there (Suzhou, Wuhan), and having traveled around the country and the rest of East Asia. Affirmative action in China is a drop in the bucket and barely relevant. Racial pride in China is tied up with national pride, as it is in Japan and Korea, and how it was in Europe and the US before runaway immigration and multiculturalism took over. When Chinese take pride in China, they aren’t thinking about how proud they are to be in the same nation as Uighurs or Tibetans. You have a rose-colored view of how racial identity on a personal level works in China.

    China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.

    China’s “multiracialism” is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. China’s minorities are far more similar to the majority population than the minority groups of the West are. Not to mention, they’ve been inhabiting those regions for thousands of years. You should go ahead and ask them in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag.

    When China experiences Western-style diversity, then you can come back and tell me all about how well civic nationalism works in China and how it is a model for the West.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    China’s “multiracialism” is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren’t even remotely comparable.
     
    Actually, I think a reasonable analogy for China's "racial/ethnic issues" is the situation in the U.S. during the 1950s if blacks had not existed.

    Certainly, America was a "multi-racial" country back then given that there were millions of non-white Americans living in the country. But they were only substantial fractions of the population in outlying, mostly under-developed regions such as Alaska, New Mexico, Hawaii, and various Indian reservations in South Dakota and such. And the total population was over 95% white.

    Obviously, if you'd asked Americans, they would have certainly been aware of the existence of non-white Americans, such as Asians, Hispanic Mestizos, and American Indians. Indeed, individual members of these groups were sometimes touted favorably by the media for their achievements, such as Jim Thorpe the famous Olympic athlete or Charlie Chan the great (fictional) detective. And any0ne who went around claiming that America was an "all white" country would have been regarded as ignorant, boorish, and bigoted.

    But America was an "almost all-white" country, and most Americans vaguely regarded it as such.
    , @DB Cooper
    "You should go ahead and ask them [China’s minorities ] in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag. "

    The question has been asked and they are very happy. Studies done by Western sociologist has found out that China's minorities, and that include the Tibetans and the Uighurs are more nationalistic Chinese than there Han counterparts. This notion that Tibetans and Uighurs are restless living under oppression is just another nonsense propagated by the West. But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.

    Listen to this podcast:

    http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2013/10/bia_20131016.mp3
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  82. Joe Wong says:
    @wayfarer
    Tibet China Conflict: Religion and the Cultural Revolution
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAJNR1Z_Il0

    Tibet Situation: Critical
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqdQtwFjeMY

    The video showed the Tibetans are performing their cult rituals in Lhasa Tibet China nowadays, if Tibetan’s religion is suppressed as the western narrator said in the video was true, then you will not see so many Tibetans performing those cult rituals so publicly for the West to film for their demonizing China propaganda. It is sad that your racial bigotry blinds you from picking up such contradiction right from beginning of the video.

    Dalai Lama was a wealthy slave owning Tibetan ‘compradores’ imported British goods and facilitated the takeover of local markets and resources in Tibet, as well as allowing the Anglo imperialist pillage forced greater exploitation and taxation of the great mass of Tibetans to suit the needs of the empire.

    The British and American are resentful that CCP terminated their exploitation of Tibetans, imperial domination of Tibet and the gratification of their White supremacy in front of the poverty ridden Tibetans. CCP exposed their imperialist undertaking in engineering Tibetan war lords arm revolt against Chinese central government and the exile of the Dalai Lama and his mentally colonized Tibetan ‘compradores’ by capturing the British and American agents during the putting down of the Tibetan armed rebellion. The British and American are vindictive, so they continue their anti-China propaganda with fake news like the videos you posted.

    The Dalai Lama is a wolf in monk’s robes, a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast. Under the Dalai Lama rule, the Tibetan Constitution makes slavery/serfdom legal.
    It allows the buying and selling of Tibetans as slaves/serfs.
    The Dalai Lama in 1951 himself had owned 6500 slaves
    All the monasteries had owned slaves who do all the menial/dirty work.
    It divides Tibetan people into 3 main castes and 12 sub-castes — with the slaves, the lowest castes.
    (1) the Tibetan nick-names for slaves was “Two-legged cattle”
    (2) these slaves were indeed bought and sold like cattle
    (3) They live in the cattle-shed together with the cattle
    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking “Who is your master?” instead of “what is your name”?
    *5) They were routinely tortured, abused, raped by their masters; gouging eyes, chopping hands and skinning alive were the common penalties under the Dalai Lama rule.
    (6) They had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter
    (7) When the escaped slaves ran to the monasteries for help they were told by monks to accept their Fate as KARMA — and not to rebel , otherwise they would re-incarnate as something worse

    All of the above, the British and the American were serving the Dalai Lama as political advisors on the governing council.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    What planet do you live on?

    The type of Briton or American who loves the Dalai Llama is the same sort of person who thinks that imperialism, colonialism, racism, slavery, etc. were the most evil things ever and that we must endlessly apologize for.

    China fits into these people's worldviews awkwardly, as while they are ashamed of attacking and dominating China in the past they today view China as being an oppressive country in its own right.

    The sort of Westerners who DO (for instance, me) miss the days of exploiting China don't give a shit about the Dalai Llama. He's just some bald old fruitcake in silly robes. What the Tibetan monks did when they ran Tibet is equally irrelevant to us except as a matter of historical curiosity.

    We also don't give a shit about China dominating Tibet today at all. At most we want to separate Tibet from China to weaken you, and obviously that's the reason why the Dalai Llama is entertained by Western governments.
    , @Alden
    A Chinese diplomat assigned to the consulate in San Francisco told me about the horrors of slavery in Tibet including mutilating and cutting off limbs.

    He lived on tree bark soup during the great cultural revolution. His party came out on top when the great cultural revolution ended.

    I thought he was exaggerating the horrors of slavery in Tibet to justify the Chinese take over of Tibet.
    , @Eagle Eye

    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking “Who is your master?” instead of “what is your name”?
    ...

    (6) [Tibetan slaves] had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter
     

    Your knowledge of subtleties of the Tibetan language as spoken by Tibetan slaves pre-1952 is truly impressive.

    Thank G-d China's government does not engage in propaganda efforts, so we can enjoy unfiltered, factual information about China's new subjects in Tibet.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  83. @Priss Factor
    Yes, that’s the myth many of us have been taught, but can you support the claim? Are you able to recognize war time propaganda when you encounter it?

    OK, so am I to believe that Hitler's MEIN KAMPF was about "I love everyone"?

    OK, so am I to believe that Hitler’s MEIN KAMPF was about “I love everyone”?

    OK, so am I to believe that you know anything but the mythology of Hitler and Mein Kampf?

    Here you go; disabuse yerself of some foolishness…

    “… this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth.

    If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler’s Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions…”

    Murray Rothbard, Revisionism for Our Time
    Mr. Rothbard was an American Jew and an historian of the very highest caliber.

    http://mises.org/daily/2592

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    David Cole is pretty good on WWII.

    http://takimag.com/article/how_many_jews_can_be_gassed_on_the_head_of_a_pin_david_cole/print
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  84. Jey says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Was not talking about China (in fact clearly implied it has plenty of room for convergence). Read more carefully.

    Japan has 40% of the US population, no useless NAMs. Only produces 1/6 the elite scientific output of the United States.

    Has twice the UK population; produces less elite scientific output than the UK.

    https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    Then how do you explain France does much worse than the UK in the so called elite scientific output, although they have roughly the same population? I’d venture whoever has the bigger say due to its legacy and language advantage has the bigger influence on this kind of indeces, just look at the world university rankings by some famous media every year; It’s a guarantee that UK/US universities will take up almost all seats in the top 20 (incidentally the young generation of scientists in the top US universities are mostly Asians, like the overrepresented Jews in the last century, many of whom became Nobel prize winners in their later life). I am not suggesting all these kinds of indeces/rankings are fakenews, but they are not as objective as you may think it is. That’s why China would ditch international ratings by some credit agencies to sell its sovereign bonds, establish AIIB, SCO, OBOR, etc in hope of setting the standards by herself.

    So far the US is still a leading nation in science and technology but the US is an exception, because as a superpower it can attract the brightest from all over the world. Europe is another story. Seems to me that the EU is becoming more and more irrelevant in the new industries (internet, ecommerce, AI, semiconductors, etc) and in global market. The UK has London as a financial hub to remind us its relevancy; France and Italy sell overpriced luxury goods to make some people feel good about themselves; Germany produces some interesting mechanic products but if Japan or even Korea could have the same single EU market as Germany does, I don’t think German goods would be competitive enough to compete against, say, Japanese cars, robots, cameras, korean TVs, or Taiwanese chips.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    France and Italy sell overpriced luxury goods to make some people feel good about themselves; Germany produces some interesting mechanic products but if Japan or even Korea could have the same single EU market as Germany does, I don’t think German goods would be competitive enough to compete against, say, Japanese cars, robots, cameras, korean TVs, or Taiwanese chips.
     
    Almost all true but per France. Unlike UK or Germany France DOES have indigenous and stellar aerospace industry (Rafale, Mirage, Dassault in general) and is a crucial contributor to Airbus , she also has a respectable space program and capability. So between some Nobel Prize laureate in theoretical physics, granted its importance, and a viable aerospace industry--the choice is kinda obvious. Agree per German cars--over-engineered, grossly over-priced reputational items in same vein as iPhone, do the same thing as others but for twice or thrice the price. Korea, for all its potential, I doubt will be able to produce world-class jet-engine, as an example. Germans, however, produce world class gas-turbines and diesel which makes Chinese-made analogues, well... it makes them Chinese-made. Per ratings, agree 100%--most of those are lame and faux-scientific creations of US "economic" schools and describe absolutely nothing of real substance and are rigged only for promotion of US products and influence. The same thing as Jane's, once, a very long-long time ago--a respected military reference guide, which today is nothing more than advertisement booklet for US (and UK) MIC. Semiconductors are a separate topic.

    ecommerce
     
    It is a money-generating service. Important but merely a derivative of other, way more important, things. Again, between ecommerse and viable aerospace industry the choice is obvious.

    P.S. France produces completely on her own nuclear attack and strategic missile submarine fleet with, unlike in Royal Navy, actual French designed and produced SLBMs. A no small feat, if you ask me.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  85. Ron Unz says:
    @anonymous

    ignorance about China
     
    Just the ignorance that comes from having lived there (Suzhou, Wuhan), and having traveled around the country and the rest of East Asia. Affirmative action in China is a drop in the bucket and barely relevant. Racial pride in China is tied up with national pride, as it is in Japan and Korea, and how it was in Europe and the US before runaway immigration and multiculturalism took over. When Chinese take pride in China, they aren't thinking about how proud they are to be in the same nation as Uighurs or Tibetans. You have a rose-colored view of how racial identity on a personal level works in China.

    China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.
     
    China's "multiracialism" is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren't even remotely comparable. China's minorities are far more similar to the majority population than the minority groups of the West are. Not to mention, they've been inhabiting those regions for thousands of years. You should go ahead and ask them in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag.

    When China experiences Western-style diversity, then you can come back and tell me all about how well civic nationalism works in China and how it is a model for the West.

    China’s “multiracialism” is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren’t even remotely comparable.

    Actually, I think a reasonable analogy for China’s “racial/ethnic issues” is the situation in the U.S. during the 1950s if blacks had not existed.

    Certainly, America was a “multi-racial” country back then given that there were millions of non-white Americans living in the country. But they were only substantial fractions of the population in outlying, mostly under-developed regions such as Alaska, New Mexico, Hawaii, and various Indian reservations in South Dakota and such. And the total population was over 95% white.

    Obviously, if you’d asked Americans, they would have certainly been aware of the existence of non-white Americans, such as Asians, Hispanic Mestizos, and American Indians. Indeed, individual members of these groups were sometimes touted favorably by the media for their achievements, such as Jim Thorpe the famous Olympic athlete or Charlie Chan the great (fictional) detective. And any0ne who went around claiming that America was an “all white” country would have been regarded as ignorant, boorish, and bigoted.

    But America was an “almost all-white” country, and most Americans vaguely regarded it as such.

    Read More
    • Replies: @eah
    But America was an “almost all-white” country, and most Americans vaguely regarded it as such.

    I don't think the feeling was all that vague.
    , @anonymous
    All great points. I completely agree.

    Personally, I believe there are several positive aspects of civic nationalism (in certain situations, and within limits). It's just that I often see communist sympathizing sinophiles touting China as some sort of shining beacon of multiculturalism, standing in opposition to those evil and racist Western (and East Asian) capitalist societies who are busy oppressing minorities and complaining about multiculturalism. It's a toxic and disingenuous form of virtue signaling (e.g. the above nonsense about "African dances") that communist sympathizers love to use in an attempt to tout the virtues of their brand. Chinese people have the luxury of living their day to day life in similar homogeneity (China is actually less diverse than Japan and South Korea, in many areas) as their Asian neighbors. If Chinese people had diversity forced upon them and were pushed to the point that Westerners are, their attitudes in these matters would change real quick.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  86. China has destroyed my career and in essence my life. I can NOT COMPETE against a company in China where profits are of a secondary concern.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    So, you literally lost because of capitalism.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  87. Joe Wong says:
    @jilles dykstra
    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.
    Therefore the dictatorial communist system is bound to disappear.
    I made the comparison with Holland in the 17th century, and Philips II in feudal catholic Spain.
    What we see now in Spain resembles the 17th century clash, I suppose.

    You should say dictatorial system is bound to disappear regardless it is capitalism, communism, western style democracy (Orwellian police state in reality).

    Capitalism is about greed, maximize bottom line, monopoly, concentration of wealth and exploitation, while communism is about equalizing wealth. The end result is capitalism reducing economic liberty for the 99% while the communism improve economic liberty for all, such conclusion is also reflecting in the current world. In according to your conclusion the capitalism is bound to disappear because capitalism reduces economic liberty.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  88. @Seamus Padraig
    That's the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don't last too long.

    That’s the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don’t last too long.

    Their brevity may be benefits.

    Democracy is rule by morons, fools, and busybodies (just like all other forms of rule), has never really existed to any degree, and really shouldn’t be allowed to because it can easily be subverted and become an agent of oppression.

    Capitalism has many forms and most of them end up being perverted by the big money bag shysters themselves which I think is the biggest problem. Another big problem is that crooks can gather capital relatively easily compared to hard working productive folk, and capital tends toward both monopolies and monopsonies, both of which involve a loss of freedom for the rest of us. Liberal as well as illiberal forms of capitalism wind up becoming tyrannical plut-oligarchical forms, such as we have in the USSA (United Socialist States of Amerika).

    The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    "The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!"

    You can take man out of the animal world but you can't take the animal world out of man.

    That's why man's attempts at civilization are such kludges.
    , @polaco
    It's perverse to call the West capitalist. I'm not 100% sure but in France 60% of her GDP is government spending. She's not less and less socialist like the author claims. Macron wants an EU wide tax to keep her alive. And to call America libertarian-capitalist is ridiculous. Just look what government involvement in medical care has caused, the costs are out of control. If somehow individual and corporate income taxes were abolished, and most government departments liquidated- and government has never shrunk, it always grows bigger and deeper like metastatic cancer, if people were free to do or not to do business with whomever they wanted, direct investment would skyrocket, capital would flow back to America and China would be left in the dust. The way things stand now, morons want free stuff from their government without understanding the consequences, the national security sector must never have its budget slashed, and corporations are lobbying the government to rig the game in their favor. Human nature hasn't changed in thousands of years and history is never forgiving as it's being made.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  89. Joe Wong says:
    @lucidian
    Chinese are well known as the most racist people of all.

    Racism (originated from Orientalism) is a White invention, the worst kind of development of human intelligence, it makes human beings pit against each other blindly like bigot creatures. Racism is the ultimate expression of greed, selfishness, closed mindedness, hypocrisy and it is an eternal drag on the progress of civilization.

    Thanks to the racism invented by the White, now human being can treat each other with contempt, enslave others on the moral high ground, slaughter others as subhuman species, and we never can live together in harmony on this tiny little blue dot in the vast empty universe.

    The racism invented by the White makes us lonely in this cold dark universe because we no longer trust each other to get warmth.

    Read More
    • Disagree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Wade
    I was following your comments, some of which were good, but now you've gone off of the deep end. A basic human trait invented by white people all on our own? Now you really do give us way too much credit here.
    , @lucidian
    Sounds like Chinese government talking points. Chinese are not a warm people. Every Chinese person I have met is cold and aggressive. Every culture has its warts, but China's are massive, far off the scale of anything any Western country has done. China killed tens of millions of its own people under Mao only a few decades ago. Look in the mirror, Joe Wong. Your people have great shame, and immense carnage to answer for. You should be looking after your own and not be lecturing anyone.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  90. @Anonymous
    1) The West is not really capitalist. A third of Americans need a government lisence to work. The interest rate is not set by supply and demand but the government agency FED. Taxes are 50% and there are hundreds of thousands of regulations. Also there is government education that has destroyed the capistalist mindset which is probably the worst of all.

    2) Just because the East builds things, does not mean it is beating us. The whole world, but especially China, is sitting on a financial bubble that will expose many of these investments as not productive.

    3) I am happy for the East's Progress. I don't care if they beat us. It's not a race.

    “A third of Americans need a government license to work”

    and all you need is a pulse to vote.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    ...and all you need is a pulse to vote.
     
    Baloney. In Amer-ka even the long-deceased have been known to cast ballots. Probably multiple times even.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  91. hyperbola says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Was not talking about China (in fact clearly implied it has plenty of room for convergence). Read more carefully.

    Japan has 40% of the US population, no useless NAMs. Only produces 1/6 the elite scientific output of the United States.

    Has twice the UK population; produces less elite scientific output than the UK.

    https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    Now that Nature was bought by the zionists (Springer Verlag), they publish all kinds of dodgy propaganda. Seems to be a trait: sell garbage at inflated prices with propaganda.

    The Israel Lobby in Germany | Freemasonry – Scribd

    https://es.scribd.com/document/236970539/The-Israel-Lobby-in-Germany

    Axel Springer Chef : “Ich bin ein Zionist” – YouTube

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  92. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @interesting
    China has destroyed my career and in essence my life. I can NOT COMPETE against a company in China where profits are of a secondary concern.

    So, you literally lost because of capitalism.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  93. @Anonymous
    You can do anything in China politically except try to overthrow the government; try setting up an organization to throw the government in the US and see how far they'll let you, in the same way. There's relatively less political freedom in China, but its not a fundamental difference thanks to the increasing oppressive nature of the US society as well.

    Yes, I did not mean to suggest the USA was night-and-day difference in political freedom.

    It is also a very interesting contrast between the state media in communist china and the state media in the USA, following Chomsky’s Propaganda Model.

    Many hate Chomsky because he is a “liberal”, but his Propaganda Media Model is one of the best contributions to social science I have ever seen.

    Along with lack of political freedom we have “voluntary” state media with CNN, MSNBC, NY Times etc. putting out propaganda and suppressing/harassing independent journalism.

    What’s the difference between state run media in the USA and state run media in China? A lot: in China, they pay you to publish propaganda. In the USA they pay you to publish propaganda.

    So that subtle difference explains a lot.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  94. Joe Wong says:
    @Sergey Krieger
    Still, they cannot produce top science talent and have been lagging for decades now in military and other technologies. Chinese are intelligent but not That intelligent. Andrei was rightfully dismissive of IQ because it cannot explain how supposedly super smart Chinese and other north eastern Asians cannot produce scientific breakthroughs and there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.

    Sergey Krieger, goose step, toothbrush mustache, death production line for Holocaust are some of the notable technological breakthroughs produced by the German.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  95. @Jeff J. Brown
    Thanks, Ron, for running this. I just found the article, been terribly busy. I'll join into the new thread when you republish today.

    Best from Jeff in China

    Thanks for reacquainting me, with the late and great Leon Russell.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  96. @Joe Wong
    The video showed the Tibetans are performing their cult rituals in Lhasa Tibet China nowadays, if Tibetan’s religion is suppressed as the western narrator said in the video was true, then you will not see so many Tibetans performing those cult rituals so publicly for the West to film for their demonizing China propaganda. It is sad that your racial bigotry blinds you from picking up such contradiction right from beginning of the video.

    Dalai Lama was a wealthy slave owning Tibetan ‘compradores’ imported British goods and facilitated the takeover of local markets and resources in Tibet, as well as allowing the Anglo imperialist pillage forced greater exploitation and taxation of the great mass of Tibetans to suit the needs of the empire.

    The British and American are resentful that CCP terminated their exploitation of Tibetans, imperial domination of Tibet and the gratification of their White supremacy in front of the poverty ridden Tibetans. CCP exposed their imperialist undertaking in engineering Tibetan war lords arm revolt against Chinese central government and the exile of the Dalai Lama and his mentally colonized Tibetan ‘compradores’ by capturing the British and American agents during the putting down of the Tibetan armed rebellion. The British and American are vindictive, so they continue their anti-China propaganda with fake news like the videos you posted.

    The Dalai Lama is a wolf in monk's robes, a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast. Under the Dalai Lama rule, the Tibetan Constitution makes slavery/serfdom legal.
    It allows the buying and selling of Tibetans as slaves/serfs.
    The Dalai Lama in 1951 himself had owned 6500 slaves
    All the monasteries had owned slaves who do all the menial/dirty work.
    It divides Tibetan people into 3 main castes and 12 sub-castes --- with the slaves, the lowest castes.
    (1) the Tibetan nick-names for slaves was "Two-legged cattle"
    (2) these slaves were indeed bought and sold like cattle
    (3) They live in the cattle-shed together with the cattle
    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking "Who is your master?" instead of "what is your name"?
    *5) They were routinely tortured, abused, raped by their masters; gouging eyes, chopping hands and skinning alive were the common penalties under the Dalai Lama rule.
    (6) They had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter
    (7) When the escaped slaves ran to the monasteries for help they were told by monks to accept their Fate as KARMA --- and not to rebel , otherwise they would re-incarnate as something worse

    All of the above, the British and the American were serving the Dalai Lama as political advisors on the governing council.

    What planet do you live on?

    The type of Briton or American who loves the Dalai Llama is the same sort of person who thinks that imperialism, colonialism, racism, slavery, etc. were the most evil things ever and that we must endlessly apologize for.

    China fits into these people’s worldviews awkwardly, as while they are ashamed of attacking and dominating China in the past they today view China as being an oppressive country in its own right.

    The sort of Westerners who DO (for instance, me) miss the days of exploiting China don’t give a shit about the Dalai Llama. He’s just some bald old fruitcake in silly robes. What the Tibetan monks did when they ran Tibet is equally irrelevant to us except as a matter of historical curiosity.

    We also don’t give a shit about China dominating Tibet today at all. At most we want to separate Tibet from China to weaken you, and obviously that’s the reason why the Dalai Llama is entertained by Western governments.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Thank you for confirming that rapes, slaughtering, plundering, torturing, hypocrisy ... these are the traits of Western culture since ancient time, these behaviour reached its peak during the medieval Europe Inquisition era (about 1000 years long).

    Recently the West keeps bubbling about democracy and human rights; the rest of world was wondering whether the West started to get out of their barbarism and moved into more civilized world, but the beastly behavior of the American and their allies in Korean War, Vietnam War, and wars in the ME plus your comment surely do not help to convince rest of the world that the West wanted to move into civilized world.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  97. @interesting
    "A third of Americans need a government license to work"

    and all you need is a pulse to vote.

    …and all you need is a pulse to vote.

    Baloney. In Amer-ka even the long-deceased have been known to cast ballots. Probably multiple times even.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  98. eah says:
    @Ron Unz

    China’s “multiracialism” is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren’t even remotely comparable.
     
    Actually, I think a reasonable analogy for China's "racial/ethnic issues" is the situation in the U.S. during the 1950s if blacks had not existed.

    Certainly, America was a "multi-racial" country back then given that there were millions of non-white Americans living in the country. But they were only substantial fractions of the population in outlying, mostly under-developed regions such as Alaska, New Mexico, Hawaii, and various Indian reservations in South Dakota and such. And the total population was over 95% white.

    Obviously, if you'd asked Americans, they would have certainly been aware of the existence of non-white Americans, such as Asians, Hispanic Mestizos, and American Indians. Indeed, individual members of these groups were sometimes touted favorably by the media for their achievements, such as Jim Thorpe the famous Olympic athlete or Charlie Chan the great (fictional) detective. And any0ne who went around claiming that America was an "all white" country would have been regarded as ignorant, boorish, and bigoted.

    But America was an "almost all-white" country, and most Americans vaguely regarded it as such.

    But America was an “almost all-white” country, and most Americans vaguely regarded it as such.

    I don’t think the feeling was all that vague.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  99. @Ron Unz
    Almost all earlier comments were lost in Monday's server crash. My sincerest apologies.

    You should be apologizing for posting the drivel that is this article.

    I don’t know what game you’re playing by publishing these demented lefties, with whom I’m nigh on certain you don’t even remotely agree.

    You’re a smart guy, so I trust you know what you’re doing. I just hope it’s something laudable rather than insidious.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thales the Milesian
    What do you mean?

    Is this an ad populum or ad verecundiam attack on Ron?

    Does anyone know whether there is something analogous to karoshi in the PRC?

    , @Jesse James
    Well, perhaps you can start a website the reposts Rush Limbaugh's or Mark Levine's world views.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  100. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz

    China’s “multiracialism” is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren’t even remotely comparable.
     
    Actually, I think a reasonable analogy for China's "racial/ethnic issues" is the situation in the U.S. during the 1950s if blacks had not existed.

    Certainly, America was a "multi-racial" country back then given that there were millions of non-white Americans living in the country. But they were only substantial fractions of the population in outlying, mostly under-developed regions such as Alaska, New Mexico, Hawaii, and various Indian reservations in South Dakota and such. And the total population was over 95% white.

    Obviously, if you'd asked Americans, they would have certainly been aware of the existence of non-white Americans, such as Asians, Hispanic Mestizos, and American Indians. Indeed, individual members of these groups were sometimes touted favorably by the media for their achievements, such as Jim Thorpe the famous Olympic athlete or Charlie Chan the great (fictional) detective. And any0ne who went around claiming that America was an "all white" country would have been regarded as ignorant, boorish, and bigoted.

    But America was an "almost all-white" country, and most Americans vaguely regarded it as such.

    All great points. I completely agree.

    Personally, I believe there are several positive aspects of civic nationalism (in certain situations, and within limits). It’s just that I often see communist sympathizing sinophiles touting China as some sort of shining beacon of multiculturalism, standing in opposition to those evil and racist Western (and East Asian) capitalist societies who are busy oppressing minorities and complaining about multiculturalism. It’s a toxic and disingenuous form of virtue signaling (e.g. the above nonsense about “African dances”) that communist sympathizers love to use in an attempt to tout the virtues of their brand. Chinese people have the luxury of living their day to day life in similar homogeneity (China is actually less diverse than Japan and South Korea, in many areas) as their Asian neighbors. If Chinese people had diversity forced upon them and were pushed to the point that Westerners are, their attitudes in these matters would change real quick.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  101. China is neither communist nor socialist. Socialism with Chinese characteristics is a euphemism for Crony Capitalism, which is the system China has. Corruption is endemic in all levels of the bureaucracy.

    Lenora Chu’s book Little Soldiers gives an eye opening account of the pervasive corruption in China even in its much vaunted education system. Parents constantly have to bribe teachers with expensive gifts like luxury goods. The teachers themselves have to bribe administrators to get their promotions. In the countryside, at least 50% of kids drop out at the end of middle school, and these dropouts need jobs. The frenzy construction in China is the government’s way of providing jobs to these dropouts and other adult migrant workers, as a way to keep peace, it has nothing to do with actual demand.

    Corrupt government officials seize the land from the farmers, sell it at a discount to a well connected developer who obtains government loans on the cheap after bribing the bankers, the developer provides jobs to the construction workers and keeps the government happy, while pocketing a large chunk of the loans and sending it to his offshore bank accounts in the Caribbean or Singapore, which enable him to buy foreign real estate and move his family out of China, as well as himself when the time comes.

    The vast majority of mainland Chinese who emigrated to the US in the past decade are corrupt government officials and their equally corrupt cronies in the private sector. The US would never have developed if the titans of our industries, from Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt to Gates, Bezos, Jobs etc. did the same, by stashing away their wealth in Europe and moving to Europe en masse after getting rich in America. Trillions of dirty money have left China’s shores in the past 2 decades. Endemic corruption ensures China will never be able to get past the middle income trap, just like other corrupt crony capitalist countries like Malaysia, Russia, Brazil.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    The US would never have developed if the titans of our industries, from Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt to Gates, Bezos, Jobs etc. did the same, by stashing away their wealth in Europe and moving to Europe en masse after getting rich in America.
     
    Actually, something of the sort did happen and it's interesting that you should mention it. Maybe the dudes you listed aren't guilty of that, but 19th century USA suffered its share of that sort of thing.

    To the corporate liberal, dishonest politicians and corruption in city, state, and federal governments were both ineficient and expensive. The reckless exploitation of natural resources was an inefficient use of a limited supply of raw materials. A dissatisfied labor force that was underpaid, harshly worked, and driven to strikes and to radical political action because its basic needs were disregarded meant extra production costs and—perhaps more important—costs that could not be calculated in advance. American basic industry could no longer tolerate the practices of the nineteenth-century type of robber barons who would hastily build a business, inflate stock beyond the earning capacity of the enterprise, bilk hapless investors, and flee with the proceeds before they themselves were caught in the falling wreckage.

    - DAVID EAKINS, Policy-Planning for the Establishment, A New history of Leviathan, Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State , Edited by Ronald D. Radosh and Murray N. Rothbard, 1972, p 190
    https://mises.org/system/tdf/A%20New%20History%20of%20Leviathan_2.pdf?file=1&type=document
     

    I think there's a lesson there.
    , @Anonymous
    Malaysia's an invalid comparison because it's corruption is race-based. As soon as the British left, the Malays abused their voting majority to monopolise political power and government positions. They then found that despite all of their winnings the Chinese were still racing ahead due to their inherently superior abilities. So then they needed to introduce more official corruption (affirmative action, guaranteed university places, grants for Malay companies, housing discounts, etc. etc.) and also created an atmosphere in which unofficial corruption became ok. A Malay policeman has no moral troubles shaking down foreign workers for the whole of their week's wages because they feel it's their country, their land, and therefore their right to act in any way they please. Equally, a government worker is happy to supplement their salary by taking bribes from (mostly Chinese) workers in the private sector because they see the Chinese driving around Toyotas and Porches and resent that the Chinese are attaining success while their race is stuck in the village and driving Proton Sagas. Malaysia's an essentially insoluble mess and the corruption will get worse as the racial and religious divide grows.

    China doesn't have this problem, which makes it an entirely different kettle of fish!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  102. @Vidi
    Great, this thread is back! I'm glad as I think Jeff wrote a good article. Looks like there was a crash and all the previous comments were lost. I'll try to recreate mine, as I think they made some decent points.

    Why? While China is zeroing in on 30,000km of HST track, more than the rest of the world combined, along with hundreds of architecturally inspiring train stations to serve them, California has 2,000 lawsuits fighting its proposal. Why? Greedy capitalists and their purchased government employees and representatives are fighting each other for the loot, like cannibals in a kill pit of corruption, while selfish citizens are putting their individual interests ahead of the greater good. The latter is called NIMBY, Not in My Backyard.
     
    Many Westerners (and Indians) probably think that China starts a megapoject by bulldozing people off the land and leaving them destitute. That is not the case at all, but I am not surprised that the Western media fails to be entirely truthful.

    It is true that people are displaced, but what the Western propaganda carefully does not say is that the Chinese government builds new, free housing for these people and generally leaves them better off. Thus there really wasn't much resistance from those who had to make way for the Three Gorges dam. Similarly, during the building frenzy in Beijing in 2007-8, just before the Olympics, people were actually hoping to be the next to be moved out for a new stadium or road.

    Occasionally, a corrupt official will basically steal the land, but this is the exception, not the rule.

    …the Chinese government builds new, free housing for these people and generally leaves them better off.

    Better off in what sense? One of the major problems when corrupt government officials seized the land from the farmers is that these farmers lost their livelihood. So what if they get their new high rise modern apartment, usually in the middle of nowhere? There are often no jobs in the area. And they have no more lands to farm. Where will they work? Many end up having to work in construction, helping to build more empty apartments elsewhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    that is utter bullshit :)

    I know of a chinese couple who owns an apt that is about to be taken down to make way for a subway station. they live in NYC but have alot of investments in china. mostly store fronts. the subway station drove the land value up by about 250% in just 3 months. the govt will be paying them the inflated value of the apt or they can opt for an apt in one of the brand new apt buildings the chinese govt will build around the station.

    if you want to pass off as a realist, at least get your facts straight. :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  103. Vidi says:
    @hyperbola
    Wonder how "capitalist" Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China? Or why "capitalist" Japan and South Korea have four-times greater coverage of their population with high-speed trains than China. China has less coverage than west european nations in general. It does manage to beat the coverage in Turkey. Informative table here.

    Ranking internacional de trenes de alta velocidad
    https://www.goeuro.es/trenes/alta-velocidad

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China?

    If a country has two people in it and its only high-speed train line is one km long, that country has many times more kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail than China.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    Did you notice the OP's pseudonym?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  104. Vidi says:
    @eah
    http://online.wsj.com/media/shbuilding_E_20100211045212.jpg

    The lesson is, dig your underground parking lots before erecting a building on top of it, not afterwards.

    Read More
    • LOL: Talha
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  105. @Daniel Chieh
    Generals, sergeants, etc all assume that its still humans running the operation. In a world of digital centralization, machine learning and big data, such assumptions should be questioned. Technology changes the practicality of many endeavors once thought impossible.

    I can’t disagree with your statements but do not understand their relevance. Are you saying China will beat the West thru superior machine learning? Please clarify.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Much more general than that - technology seems to enable increasing centralization, including perhaps overhauling our beliefs about how market signals are always superior. For example, in Biblical times, collecting a tenth of goods as taxes was considered high, but anything more would have been perhaps impossible; yet by Adam Smith's time, collecting that much in specie was considered as possible(as opposed to collecting it in-kind). And of course, nowadays many government collections anywhere between a third and even half of all salaries without any technical or even emotional opposition from their subjects.

    My thought is that we don't know if with increasing collection of information in just about everything - basically big data, if centralized planning is now much more viable as an option. My gut feeling is that we might be seeing that.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  106. Wade says:
    @Joe Wong
    Racism (originated from Orientalism) is a White invention, the worst kind of development of human intelligence, it makes human beings pit against each other blindly like bigot creatures. Racism is the ultimate expression of greed, selfishness, closed mindedness, hypocrisy and it is an eternal drag on the progress of civilization.

    Thanks to the racism invented by the White, now human being can treat each other with contempt, enslave others on the moral high ground, slaughter others as subhuman species, and we never can live together in harmony on this tiny little blue dot in the vast empty universe.

    The racism invented by the White makes us lonely in this cold dark universe because we no longer trust each other to get warmth.

    I was following your comments, some of which were good, but now you’ve gone off of the deep end. A basic human trait invented by white people all on our own? Now you really do give us way too much credit here.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  107. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    S Korea and Japan are also developed countries without having had the stewardship of the all-wise Mao or the infallible communist party. The author keeps making comparisons between the gold-standard, which is the west, and China with the latter-of course-always looking good by comparison, a childish bad habit in argumentation. He also constantly shakes the kewpie doll of wassism at every opportunity, another juvenile trait. The author has obviously flipped over to the other side and now identifies with the Chinese rather than with the evil and wassist westerners. That’s ok by me but he should stay there and continue on as a propagandist for the infallible Chinese communist party. They need native speakers of English for their public relations services. Central planning by the never-wrong party is the wave of the future, we get it. Tall buildings in a jiffy or not, I’d rather live in Amsterdam.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  108. @Erebus
    My first experience of China was sometime in 1990, and I visited often and then finally gave up on it. My 1st visa restricted my movement to designated parts of Shenzhen, and there were checkpoints all over the city. On my 2nd or 3rd visit, I was allowed to go to Guangzhou by train - a 4-5 hour ride on what must have been a WW2 era train with every imaginable sort of passenger including 4-legged. By 1992-ish I figured it would take generations for China to climb out of the hole they were in.

    Tried India instead and had somewhat better luck there. They weren't in as deep a hole, or so it seemed, and it was far easier to communicate. The bureaucracy, however, was noticeably more obtuse, and delighted in foisting impenetrable documentary requirements on anyone who would dare to export. Importing was even worse, even smoothed over by the customary bribes.

    I had occasion to revisit China in the later '90s and was stunned to see where less than a decade of development had taken it. Still in a hole, but one could see it wasn't going to take "generations" to climb out. A critical mass had been reached. The energy level was addictive. Everybody was an entrepreneur, and going hard at it. Nothing was easy, but suddenly everything was possible.

    China turned on the after-burners when it joined the WTO in 2001 and what it is today is several generations ahead of what it was in 2000, and adding a Spain every year.
    The 1990s China is still visible, the ugly, ultra plain, utilitarian factories and apartment buildings are still standing in pockets and 2nd-3rd tier cities, but even that is disappearing fast. 20 yr old buildings built at a time of frenetic expansion aged even less gracefully than they were built, and are coming down in massive re-development schemes at a rate that beggars belief.

    Meanwhile India, socio-economically at least, is still pretty much where it was in the early '90s. What's the difference? Why was China, speaking almost no English, coming out from under an even more closed, oppressive system, and behind India & Pakistan on a GDP(PPP)/ca basis in 1990, so much more successful? I gotta believe that the answer is largely Governance.

    Since the Song Dynasty, Governance has been the highest of high arts in the Chinese pantheon. The civil service attracts the best of the best, and the best of those are nurtured through the system to become mayors, county & provincial governors, and finally in the national government after a career of proving themselves. What's the criteria for a politician? To a very large extent it comes down to how pleased the people living in the area are with the job he's done. Local governments seem to do an enormous amount of polling to stay on top of what people like and don't like about their communities. There's usually a comment box asking you to grade the performance of every gov counter worker from the Immigration official who looks at your passport when you enter, to the police station, to the tax office, to the hospital admittance desk. That works, because if the governor/mayor/village leader/counter worker is at all ambitious, getting the people what they want is how they get graded and move up the food chain.

    LaoTzu's idea that the ideal ruler is the one nobody notices while great things happen apparently of their own accord seems to have been the guiding principle that BaBa Beijing et al follow. Hi-speed rails criss-cross the country, railway stations, airports, seaports, highways, hospitals pop up out of the ground like mushrooms, while Australian beef, Danish cheeses, Thai curries and French wines suddenly fill the shelves. One wonders where the hell they all came from, but there they are, and once there they seem to have always been there. A people who couldn't leave the country a couple decades ago, are now the world's greatest tourists, and there's demand for the things they found attractive in their travels. To have guided this astonishing development with so little error is itself astonishing. To be sure, there's plenty of disconnects and slippage, but in the grand scheme it's just background noise. The signal overpowers it with ease.

    At the time of the 1st Opium War, China was 33% of the world economy, trading places with India for #1 spot for 2000 yrs. It all fell apart for both of them in the 1800s. Ancient, agrarian/artisan, politically decadent cultures ran up against industrial powers that had it all over them. Having re-tooled their culture for the 21st century, the Chinese are on their way to getting back to their natural position. India needs to re-tool as well, but I see no Mao or Deng on their horizon. Meanwhile, the West is in the process of de-tooling its culture, perhaps on its way back to being agrarian/artisan again. It's gonna be a strange century, methinks.

    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. The reality is both China and India are over populated countries mired in their ancient cultures that encourage endemic corruption. It’s been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    Indians are further hobbled by their propensity for violence.

    Would modern infrastructure drag a people out of their ancient cultures and send them into the modern age? The late Samuel Huntington discussed this fine point in his excellent book Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. Huntington pointed out that countries can be modernized without being westernized. Singapore and Japan for instance, are both modernized, but Singapore is a lot more westernized than Japan. Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    By nature the Japanese are very much like the English, law abiding, civic minded, polite. The Chinese are more like Italians, breaking the law when they can get away with it, every man for himself, dog eat dog, rude and loud. Since 70% of Singapore’s inhabitants are Chinese, Lee Kuan Yew set out to rid the Chinese of their bad cultural norms by adopting English as the lingua franca and primary language of instruction. He then set up a corruption free government by first paying his cabinet members high salaries to prevent them from being enticed by graft, made every government employee wear a name tag and encourage all citizens to report any government employee that solicits bribe in any way. By such draconian measures he was able to rid the Chinese in Singapore of their propensity for corruption.

    China seeks to emulate Singapore without adopting the two most salient features instituted by Lee Kuan Yew – adoption of English as a primary language of instruction, and paying the cabinet members high enough salaries to prevent them from succumbing to bribes. The president of China makes only US$26,000 a year, that is a joke compared to cabinet members of Singapore who each make US$700,000 a year. That’s why China will not be the next Singapore, it will instead become another Malaysia or Russia, mired in corruption and unable to escape the middle income trap. As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption. Corruption will eventually bring down the CPC and China, as it has brought down every single Chinese dynasty throughout its history. Unchecked power always corrupts.

    India is hopeless. It won’t even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bandw
    You can solve the problem of corruption through technology, meaning going full cashless in everyday transactions, which is happening and growing fast in China at this very moment.
    , @silviosilver
    India is a giant toilet bowl masquerading as a country.
    , @Anonymous
    >''India is hopeless. It won’t even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.<''

    How do you know that before even being there? They have a billion plus people to govern with money and (on) land almost 1/4 the size of U.S. They are trying and are getting better at it every decade. Also you say they think highly of themselves on account of their diaspora. There are more indians who think highly of the west than they think of their own country. Thinking that 'we are not dumb' is not the same as 'we are smarter than every body else'. You are thinking that indians are thinking the later.

    Let me give you an example. A few weeks back this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_discoveries

    was posted as a response to somebody saying indians didnt invent anything. Now i posted that with the meaning that indians invented something only as a response to people thinking that they didnt. But if i say stuff like that or other indians say stuff like indians have good achievements in the west, it was a 'response' to comments like indians are 'incapable'. That is not the same as thinking highly of themselves. There is a difference. But if you still want to believe it, its your call. That said there are more indians in india and even in the west who think highly of the west than they think of their own country.

    , @Erebus

    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do.
     
    Fear no longer. There are many aspects of "Chinese characteristics" that I see as major obstacles to their being able to hang on to their successes for very long.
    China's challenges are daunting, but they are for just about all of us. Will it eventually fall, even assuming it meets those challenges? Of course it will.

    It’s been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.
     
    I've heard that from both Chinese and Indian businessmen. That's why the CPC gets support, and why most other governments in the world don't. The US Congress has a what, 11% approval rating? Taking the money and getting nothing (or worse) done is at least part of the reason why Americans feel that way about their govt. Most Chinese corruption is quite innocuous, like tax accountants taking a ¥500 case of HongJiu (red wine) when she visits the tax office with clients' statements as a "courtesy". The national govt has been on an anti-corruption drive that has caught some big fish. The guilty get a pretty rude, well publicized comeuppance, and it's having an effect.

    Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.
     
    You've got to be kidding, at least when it comes to Japan. As for Singapore, now that Lee Kuan Yew is gone, we'll see what happens. I'm a big fan of Singapore, and especially of Lee, but my guess is it'll slowly lose sight of his vision and Chinese characteristics will rise again.

    As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption.
     
    It's not the corruption that I see as the main issue with the language. Corruption extends across cultures and languages so ubiquitously that one might view as a part of human nature. Rather, I see a number of systemic/structural issues with Pudonghua (Mandarin) that are impacting Chinese development and I think will continue to. That would require a rather long treatise to explicate, and this is hardly the place for it.
    Parenthetically, I read somewhere long ago that Mao proposed to get rid of the Chinese characters because he saw the limitations they posed. A traditionalist camp apparently forced him to compromise at the combination of Simplified Chinese and PinYin (Latin transliteration), though the latter was not officially adopted until 1979. No idea how true all that is, but PinYin, left alone, would have solved a lot of issues for China. Chinese children learn their ABCs in learning PinYin before moving on to characters and it seems to me it would be much more efficient to stop there and go on to Physics and Chemistry etc. Furthermore, PingYin is simple and purely phonetic, so would be vastly more transportable across linguistic divides.
    , @denk

    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. [sic]
     
    What bloody crap !
    For reasons best known to themselves,
    Anglos viewing Chinese thru jaundiced eyes is the norm,
    Just look at this thread dude.
    Godfree Roberts/Jeff Brown are the exceptions !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  109. bandw says:
    @Another Realist
    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. The reality is both China and India are over populated countries mired in their ancient cultures that encourage endemic corruption. It's been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    Indians are further hobbled by their propensity for violence.

    Would modern infrastructure drag a people out of their ancient cultures and send them into the modern age? The late Samuel Huntington discussed this fine point in his excellent book Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. Huntington pointed out that countries can be modernized without being westernized. Singapore and Japan for instance, are both modernized, but Singapore is a lot more westernized than Japan. Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    By nature the Japanese are very much like the English, law abiding, civic minded, polite. The Chinese are more like Italians, breaking the law when they can get away with it, every man for himself, dog eat dog, rude and loud. Since 70% of Singapore's inhabitants are Chinese, Lee Kuan Yew set out to rid the Chinese of their bad cultural norms by adopting English as the lingua franca and primary language of instruction. He then set up a corruption free government by first paying his cabinet members high salaries to prevent them from being enticed by graft, made every government employee wear a name tag and encourage all citizens to report any government employee that solicits bribe in any way. By such draconian measures he was able to rid the Chinese in Singapore of their propensity for corruption.

    China seeks to emulate Singapore without adopting the two most salient features instituted by Lee Kuan Yew - adoption of English as a primary language of instruction, and paying the cabinet members high enough salaries to prevent them from succumbing to bribes. The president of China makes only US$26,000 a year, that is a joke compared to cabinet members of Singapore who each make US$700,000 a year. That's why China will not be the next Singapore, it will instead become another Malaysia or Russia, mired in corruption and unable to escape the middle income trap. As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption. Corruption will eventually bring down the CPC and China, as it has brought down every single Chinese dynasty throughout its history. Unchecked power always corrupts.

    India is hopeless. It won't even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.

    You can solve the problem of corruption through technology, meaning going full cashless in everyday transactions, which is happening and growing fast in China at this very moment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    And this would help too.

    https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/international/china-to-set-up-state-anti-corruption-unit-next-year-11802029

    INTERNATIONAL - China aims to pass a national supervision law and set up a new commission next year to oversee an expansion of President Xi Jinping’s campaign to fight corruption in the ruling Communist Party and government, the party said on Sunday.

    The moves will be made during the country’s annual meeting of parliament early next year, the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI), the party’s anti-graft watchdog, said in its report to a five-yearly party congress last week. The report had not been previously released, and gave few other details on the commission.
     
    I don't believe China is hopeless in clean up corruption. Hong Kong was one of the most corrupt places before the 80's. Now it ranks higher than the US and Japan in Corruption Perceptions Index .
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  110. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Vidi

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China?
     
    If a country has two people in it and its only high-speed train line is one km long, that country has many times more kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail than China.

    Did you notice the OP’s pseudonym?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    Did you notice the OP’s pseudonym?
     
    Heh, yes. But sometimes I can't resist replying.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  111. Talha says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    It is true that East Asians, at similar levels of development to European countries, tend to underperform relative to their IQ - possibly because of a lack of curiosity, or other factors.

    Still, there's a lot of Chinese.

    Here is a good proxy for elite level scientific output: https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    China (WFC=6,500) is already a solid second to the United States (WFC=15,000), with more than 40% of its output.

    Now if it were to converge to the per capita performance of Taiwan (WFC=300), South Korea (WFC=1,000), Japan (WFC=2,500), it would soar past the United States.

    Nobel Prizes lag reality by around a generation. See the explosion of Japanese Nobel Prizes c.2000.

    possibly because of a lack of curiosity, or other factors

    Wait! There are other factors apart from IQ at work??!! Other factors that make a difference??!!

    Heresy!!!

    Anyway – case study…

    High IQ White Nerd Taps Into Inner Tough Low IQ Colored Guy to Beat High IQ Colored Nerd – Result: Gets White Girl

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  112. 1RW says:
    @Miro23

    ...that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.
     
    It takes a lot to bring down Empires.

    With the British it took;

    1) The trench warfare of WW1 (unexpected shock).
    2) The WW2 surrender of Singapore (to the racially inferior Japanese!!)
    3) Withdrawal from India (unable to control mass Indian nationalism)
    4) Suez and the realization that it was American power that mattered.
    5) British industrial failure. Excess debt. Early 1970's loss of residual Sterling reserve currency status (oil balances move into the US Dollar) and 25% p.a. inflation.
     
    It was mostly military, but finally an economic story.

    If the US Empire is following in the footsteps of the British then the list might be:

    1) Vietnam (massive cost for eventual failure).
    2) The 9/11 Deception proving to be "uninvestigateable"
    3) Enormously costly Middle east wars for no result, driven by a treasonous Zionist minority.
    4? Probable withdrawal from Empire?
    5? American industrial failure. Excess debt. Loss of US Dollar reserve currency status (oil balances + world trade denominated in some other unit?). Inflation.
     

    You forgot
    0) Being fought to a standstill by poorly equipped but highly motivated Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miro23

    You forgot
    0) Being fought to a standstill by poorly equipped but highly motivated Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.
     
    The Chinese were engaged in Korea, and they also fought the brief Sino-Vietnamese war in 1979, but in general the Chinese military have kept out of international conflicts while the US had the very costly Vietnam and even more costly $ Trillion Middle East wars.

    The Chinese seem to be following Trump's maxim of investing in infrastructure rather than pointless foreign wars, and also, they don't have AIPAC on their back telling them that Israel is China's best friend, and directing Chinese $ Billions at the country, with Chinese armies ordered to destroy the Middle East.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  113. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @bandw
    You can solve the problem of corruption through technology, meaning going full cashless in everyday transactions, which is happening and growing fast in China at this very moment.

    And this would help too.

    https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/international/china-to-set-up-state-anti-corruption-unit-next-year-11802029

    INTERNATIONAL – China aims to pass a national supervision law and set up a new commission next year to oversee an expansion of President Xi Jinping’s campaign to fight corruption in the ruling Communist Party and government, the party said on Sunday.

    The moves will be made during the country’s annual meeting of parliament early next year, the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI), the party’s anti-graft watchdog, said in its report to a five-yearly party congress last week. The report had not been previously released, and gave few other details on the commission.

    I don’t believe China is hopeless in clean up corruption. Hong Kong was one of the most corrupt places before the 80′s. Now it ranks higher than the US and Japan in Corruption Perceptions Index .

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  114. @Another Realist

    ...the Chinese government builds new, free housing for these people and generally leaves them better off.
     
    Better off in what sense? One of the major problems when corrupt government officials seized the land from the farmers is that these farmers lost their livelihood. So what if they get their new high rise modern apartment, usually in the middle of nowhere? There are often no jobs in the area. And they have no more lands to farm. Where will they work? Many end up having to work in construction, helping to build more empty apartments elsewhere.

    that is utter bullshit :)

    I know of a chinese couple who owns an apt that is about to be taken down to make way for a subway station. they live in NYC but have alot of investments in china. mostly store fronts. the subway station drove the land value up by about 250% in just 3 months. the govt will be paying them the inflated value of the apt or they can opt for an apt in one of the brand new apt buildings the chinese govt will build around the station.

    if you want to pass off as a realist, at least get your facts straight. :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Another Realist
    Yeah, keep buying the con. The Chinese here will always tell you they get rich by government compensation and other BS. I've even heard businessmen in Asia explaining to me that the Chinese they do business with tell them they were farmers in China and got rich when the government paid them for the land. What a joke! China is a communist country. As The Economist once explained, no one owns the land in that country. The farmers certainly do not, many simply have their land seized by county officials for development, while being paid an apartment as compensation. Even when you buy a house in China, you do not own the land, you technically only lease the land from the government for a period of 30 years. All the rich Chinese you see around here are corrupt, either corrupt government officials who take bribes or corrupt businessmen who give bribes, massive bribes. Even the NYT had a front page expose last year with the headline, "Wanted in China, Living the Good Life in the US", profiling many rich Chinese living in Miami, LA, Seattle, who were wanted for corruption in China and hiding in the US. The Economist often refers to the "Naked Officials" of CPC and write about the factory owners who shut down their factories and skipped out of the country in the middle in the night, owing months of backpay to their employees. China is corrupt to the core. Some astute observer you are.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  115. @Priss Factor
    then traveling 12,500 kilometers around this country in 2012 to write 44 Days Backpacking in China, that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

    What are you talking about? The West is under the rule of PC. This damn PC teaches white people that they suck. Google-search for top US scientists and you get some Negro who invented Peanut Butter and other blacks.
    PC says West has no right to moral pride... except in spreading homos and 'white guilt' and sucking up to Jews and Negroes and celebrating Diversity.
    Also, when it comes to 'creativity', we are told that white people are bland and generic. It's the Negroes who be 'creative' and shi* because they come up with 'twerking' and wearing pants low and nursery-rhyming F-bombs.
    And we are told we need MASS IMMIGRATION from Asia because white people suck at math and etc. So, we need Asians to do all the brainy work.

    China during Mao was also failing because of its own PC. Mao could have combined best of Chinese culture and tradition with modernity and industrialization; instead, he waged war on Chinese tradition and culture. He destroyed Chinese society and then let loose the Red Guards or Tards to wreck all of China and drive intellectuals to suicide or to pig farms to clean pig poo.
    Chiang Kai Shek wanted to preserve the best of traditional China while implementing reforms and modernization borrowed from the West. He revered both Confucius and Jesus, and he understood the need for modernization.
    But Mao waged war on Chinese culture and then took only the worst aspects of Western Thought: the ideology of radical self-righteous hatred. His idea of modernization made no sense, destroying much of China during the Great Leap Forward and killing tens of millions.

    So, when did China begin to recover? It was after Mao, and what was the proper formula? It was neo-fascism though the Chinese elites never called it that.
    Fascism is about the integration of various -isms and modes. Instead of seeing them as hopeless opposites or diehard contradictions, they were seen as complementary, mutually interdependent, and integral to the whole.
    So, by the rules of fascism, modernity need not smash all of tradition as 'reactionary'. Socialism didn't mean all of capitalism had to be suppressed. Internationalism didn't mean nationalism was anathema. Rather, nationalisms around the world could be the building block of a mutually respecting international order.

    So, the proper formula for China's success was nationalism, capitalism, socialism, restoration of some degree of traditionalism, and ethno-centrism. New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.

    The reason for America's problems in recent times has to do with the fading of white race-ism and American nationalism. When white Americans worked together as a people and identified as a European family, their lives were far more meaningful and their work was far more productive. Such race-ism led to the creation of a magnificent country.

    But look at the current US. Unlike China where the Chinese elites lead the Chinese masses in a spirit of neo-fascism, the US has rule by globalists who despise white Americans and push for greater diversity so that white Americans will be further depressed and even more shamed by PC as the scourge of humanity. White Americans are a subject people, like Hindus under the British or Chinese under Manchu domination.

    The Chinese way is like the Zionist way. (Zionist nationalism in Israel is good. Zionist imperialism in West Bank and Wars for Israel is not good.) Yes, socialism is a part of China's rise, but not the Maoist kind. It's socialism mixed with capitalism in the spirit of nationalism. It's called neo-fascism.

    Granted, one good thing about the communist legacy is this. Though communism was a disaster -- Maoism esp sucked --, it did instill the Chinese with a sense of dignity for the common man. So, the neo-fascism of China has a humanist basis, and that has prevented Chinese from becoming too arrogant and chauvinistic.

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of 'Aryan' superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.
    One good thing about communism was it taught Chinese to accept being human than trying to be god-like.

    Very well stated, wow!

    Homogenious societies, save a few, can accomplish miracles without the yoke of usary. America is getting exactly what it deserves, most are unwitting boiling frogs. God have mercy on the traiters if the populace awakens in time.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  116. There is a major problem that all of you including the author overlooked: The price of the pollution that exists in China and the price to pay. The air pollution will cause most likely upwards of 50 to 60 million deaths by cancer, emphysema and other diseases. Many of China’s major rivers are also in serious jeopardy.

    The price of health care and pollution clean up will put a dent in China’s economy that you won’t believe. Furthermore, I hope China’s civil engineers are better than some of their electrical and mechanical engineers and some of the stuff they produce.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  117. Rdm says:
    @Vidi

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders…. but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially… but… it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.
     
    When did Europeans stop throwing buckets of shit on the streets? Exito!

    Europeans used communal brush to wipe their asses after they’re done with their mass.

    An inventor of paper, China rightly made paper for palatial use of ‘toilet paper’. China is the inventor of toilet paper.

    Again, lack of modernization pulled China back to stone age, like when thousands of Zheng He’s nautical exploration records were burnt and destroyed. China has a self-destructive mechanism for all their achievement in the past.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  118. lucidian says:
    @Joe Wong
    Racism (originated from Orientalism) is a White invention, the worst kind of development of human intelligence, it makes human beings pit against each other blindly like bigot creatures. Racism is the ultimate expression of greed, selfishness, closed mindedness, hypocrisy and it is an eternal drag on the progress of civilization.

    Thanks to the racism invented by the White, now human being can treat each other with contempt, enslave others on the moral high ground, slaughter others as subhuman species, and we never can live together in harmony on this tiny little blue dot in the vast empty universe.

    The racism invented by the White makes us lonely in this cold dark universe because we no longer trust each other to get warmth.

    Sounds like Chinese government talking points. Chinese are not a warm people. Every Chinese person I have met is cold and aggressive. Every culture has its warts, but China’s are massive, far off the scale of anything any Western country has done. China killed tens of millions of its own people under Mao only a few decades ago. Look in the mirror, Joe Wong. Your people have great shame, and immense carnage to answer for. You should be looking after your own and not be lecturing anyone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @George Orwell
    No, nothing China has ever done is as sadistic and cruel as what the West does on a regular basis. A reckoning is coming and people like you should be ashamed and afraid of what your culture has to answer for.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  119. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Was not talking about China (in fact clearly implied it has plenty of room for convergence). Read more carefully.

    Japan has 40% of the US population, no useless NAMs. Only produces 1/6 the elite scientific output of the United States.

    Has twice the UK population; produces less elite scientific output than the UK.

    https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    How bout you think more carefully instead of falling back on lazy memes.

    You said East Asians, so you were clearly talking about China even if you tried to cover your ass later on.

    Your conclusion is still a reach, and speaks more of you trying to reach a conclusion that you like than any strong insight.

    Japan’s economy was booming in the 80′s and then they made a deal with the West (devil) and ever since then their economy has stagnated. Their people work like 80 hours a week since their government is loading up on Western debt.

    So yeah, when you work so much you don’t have as much free time to innovate. Same thing would happen to the West if America was buying all the Japanese junk debt and had to work 80 hours a week to get by.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  120. Joe Wong says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    What planet do you live on?

    The type of Briton or American who loves the Dalai Llama is the same sort of person who thinks that imperialism, colonialism, racism, slavery, etc. were the most evil things ever and that we must endlessly apologize for.

    China fits into these people's worldviews awkwardly, as while they are ashamed of attacking and dominating China in the past they today view China as being an oppressive country in its own right.

    The sort of Westerners who DO (for instance, me) miss the days of exploiting China don't give a shit about the Dalai Llama. He's just some bald old fruitcake in silly robes. What the Tibetan monks did when they ran Tibet is equally irrelevant to us except as a matter of historical curiosity.

    We also don't give a shit about China dominating Tibet today at all. At most we want to separate Tibet from China to weaken you, and obviously that's the reason why the Dalai Llama is entertained by Western governments.

    Thank you for confirming that rapes, slaughtering, plundering, torturing, hypocrisy … these are the traits of Western culture since ancient time, these behaviour reached its peak during the medieval Europe Inquisition era (about 1000 years long).

    Recently the West keeps bubbling about democracy and human rights; the rest of world was wondering whether the West started to get out of their barbarism and moved into more civilized world, but the beastly behavior of the American and their allies in Korean War, Vietnam War, and wars in the ME plus your comment surely do not help to convince rest of the world that the West wanted to move into civilized world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Civilization simply means complex society. A society with urbanization, government, class stratification, etc.

    It certainly does not mean human rights, peace, or whatever other wishy-washy things people THINK it means.

    In fact, the entire purpose of civilization was warfare. Switching from hunting to agriculture allowed for large populations, governments, and armies in order to attack and subjugate neighbors.

    In any case you misunderstood the democracy and human rights nonsense coming from the West. Many Westerners--not me--really do believe in this garbage. It is a post-Christian religion. Of course this religion, like religions in the past, is occasionally used as an rationalization for imperialism.

    And as far as your misuse of the term civilization (again, this does not mean refraining from warfare, quite the opposite), I'll note that our civilization has reached a higher apogee and achieved more than any other civilization in history.

    Your civilization is of course worthy of great respect and is in the process of eclipsing mine, so I mean no disrespect to you or to China. I think China's rise is positive inasmuch as it helps delegitimize human rights, democracy, and other such garbage that is consuming the West.

    But I can't stand this appalling, weakness-worshipping nonsense that suggests it is somehow WRONG to engage in conflict with your rivals. Other than my bird-brained liberal neighbors this mentality generally comes from LOSERS who seek to convince WINNERS that winning is somehow wrong.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  121. @Skullcrusher
    I can't disagree with your statements but do not understand their relevance. Are you saying China will beat the West thru superior machine learning? Please clarify.

    Much more general than that – technology seems to enable increasing centralization, including perhaps overhauling our beliefs about how market signals are always superior. For example, in Biblical times, collecting a tenth of goods as taxes was considered high, but anything more would have been perhaps impossible; yet by Adam Smith’s time, collecting that much in specie was considered as possible(as opposed to collecting it in-kind). And of course, nowadays many government collections anywhere between a third and even half of all salaries without any technical or even emotional opposition from their subjects.

    My thought is that we don’t know if with increasing collection of information in just about everything – basically big data, if centralized planning is now much more viable as an option. My gut feeling is that we might be seeing that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Excellent points across the board! Especially the details about taxes being paid in kind. The move to fiat currency was a huge step in mankind's progression toward centralization.

    I've mentioned this book before, but bears repeating (your local library probably has a copy and it is excellent in audio format):
    https://www.amazon.com/Technopoly-Surrender-Technology-Neil-Postman/dp/0679745408

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b_cd31e8uM

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  122. Yeah, blah blah. Just don’t try to breathe the air there.

    Seriously, I was there in 2004 and most of the time the sky was white with haze. At night, the smoke from everyone’s outdoor coal stoves was overpowering.

    And no, I wasn’t in the hinterlands. I was in Changsha, the capital of Hunan province and Guangzhou the capital of Guandong province.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  123. @jacques sheete

    That’s the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don’t last too long.
     
    Their brevity may be benefits.

    Democracy is rule by morons, fools, and busybodies (just like all other forms of rule), has never really existed to any degree, and really shouldn't be allowed to because it can easily be subverted and become an agent of oppression.

    Capitalism has many forms and most of them end up being perverted by the big money bag shysters themselves which I think is the biggest problem. Another big problem is that crooks can gather capital relatively easily compared to hard working productive folk, and capital tends toward both monopolies and monopsonies, both of which involve a loss of freedom for the rest of us. Liberal as well as illiberal forms of capitalism wind up becoming tyrannical plut-oligarchical forms, such as we have in the USSA (United Socialist States of Amerika).

    The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!

    “The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!”

    You can take man out of the animal world but you can’t take the animal world out of man.

    That’s why man’s attempts at civilization are such kludges.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    You can take man out of the animal world but you can’t take the animal world out of man.

    That’s why man’s attempts at civilization are such kludges.
     
    Well stated. It's also why I laugh at those who pat themselves on the back for claiming to be part of a civilized society. Even the "high IQ" ones must have low standards for the label, or they don't understand what it's supposed to mean.

    I also find it amusing that so many people who have neither the mental facilities to count their change accurately nor the moral integrity to care for a dog properly nevertheless feel qualified to have a valid opinion on the desirability of government.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  124. @Joe Wong
    Thank you for confirming that rapes, slaughtering, plundering, torturing, hypocrisy ... these are the traits of Western culture since ancient time, these behaviour reached its peak during the medieval Europe Inquisition era (about 1000 years long).

    Recently the West keeps bubbling about democracy and human rights; the rest of world was wondering whether the West started to get out of their barbarism and moved into more civilized world, but the beastly behavior of the American and their allies in Korean War, Vietnam War, and wars in the ME plus your comment surely do not help to convince rest of the world that the West wanted to move into civilized world.

    Civilization simply means complex society. A society with urbanization, government, class stratification, etc.

    It certainly does not mean human rights, peace, or whatever other wishy-washy things people THINK it means.

    In fact, the entire purpose of civilization was warfare. Switching from hunting to agriculture allowed for large populations, governments, and armies in order to attack and subjugate neighbors.

    In any case you misunderstood the democracy and human rights nonsense coming from the West. Many Westerners–not me–really do believe in this garbage. It is a post-Christian religion. Of course this religion, like religions in the past, is occasionally used as an rationalization for imperialism.

    And as far as your misuse of the term civilization (again, this does not mean refraining from warfare, quite the opposite), I’ll note that our civilization has reached a higher apogee and achieved more than any other civilization in history.

    Your civilization is of course worthy of great respect and is in the process of eclipsing mine, so I mean no disrespect to you or to China. I think China’s rise is positive inasmuch as it helps delegitimize human rights, democracy, and other such garbage that is consuming the West.

    But I can’t stand this appalling, weakness-worshipping nonsense that suggests it is somehow WRONG to engage in conflict with your rivals. Other than my bird-brained liberal neighbors this mentality generally comes from LOSERS who seek to convince WINNERS that winning is somehow wrong.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Perhaps it is you view of the world or your believe of humanity, but Chinese do not share your view. Chinese believe that we are now living in a rapidly changing world...Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  125. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Much more general than that - technology seems to enable increasing centralization, including perhaps overhauling our beliefs about how market signals are always superior. For example, in Biblical times, collecting a tenth of goods as taxes was considered high, but anything more would have been perhaps impossible; yet by Adam Smith's time, collecting that much in specie was considered as possible(as opposed to collecting it in-kind). And of course, nowadays many government collections anywhere between a third and even half of all salaries without any technical or even emotional opposition from their subjects.

    My thought is that we don't know if with increasing collection of information in just about everything - basically big data, if centralized planning is now much more viable as an option. My gut feeling is that we might be seeing that.

    Excellent points across the board! Especially the details about taxes being paid in kind. The move to fiat currency was a huge step in mankind’s progression toward centralization.

    I’ve mentioned this book before, but bears repeating (your local library probably has a copy and it is excellent in audio format):

    https://www.amazon.com/Technopoly-Surrender-Technology-Neil-Postman/dp/0679745408

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  126. polaco says:
    @jacques sheete

    That’s the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don’t last too long.
     
    Their brevity may be benefits.

    Democracy is rule by morons, fools, and busybodies (just like all other forms of rule), has never really existed to any degree, and really shouldn't be allowed to because it can easily be subverted and become an agent of oppression.

    Capitalism has many forms and most of them end up being perverted by the big money bag shysters themselves which I think is the biggest problem. Another big problem is that crooks can gather capital relatively easily compared to hard working productive folk, and capital tends toward both monopolies and monopsonies, both of which involve a loss of freedom for the rest of us. Liberal as well as illiberal forms of capitalism wind up becoming tyrannical plut-oligarchical forms, such as we have in the USSA (United Socialist States of Amerika).

    The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!

    It’s perverse to call the West capitalist. I’m not 100% sure but in France 60% of her GDP is government spending. She’s not less and less socialist like the author claims. Macron wants an EU wide tax to keep her alive. And to call America libertarian-capitalist is ridiculous. Just look what government involvement in medical care has caused, the costs are out of control. If somehow individual and corporate income taxes were abolished, and most government departments liquidated- and government has never shrunk, it always grows bigger and deeper like metastatic cancer, if people were free to do or not to do business with whomever they wanted, direct investment would skyrocket, capital would flow back to America and China would be left in the dust. The way things stand now, morons want free stuff from their government without understanding the consequences, the national security sector must never have its budget slashed, and corporations are lobbying the government to rig the game in their favor. Human nature hasn’t changed in thousands of years and history is never forgiving as it’s being made.

    Read More
    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    And to call America libertarian-capitalist is ridiculous.
     
    To call it free and moral is also ridiculous. Ineffably so.

    The US, contrary to the standard myths (myths which will probably never die), was in fact never designed to accommodate a pure, generalized laissez faire capitalism. The tables were always tilted in favor of the collectivist capitalists who are masters at collectivizing risk while privatizing profits.

    The system was always designed to favor the big money crowd in various ways including direct and indirect subsidies and including special favors such as no bid contracts and bailouts. The collectivist part of it really took off under Wilson and as a result of WW1 to the cheers of the biggest monopolists and the US has been almost totally a centrally planned, de facto militaristic fascist state since Hoover and FDR and WW2.

    Required reading for anyone interested in myth busting is the source of this quote.


    Historians have generally treated the economic planning of World War I as an isolated episode dictated by the requirements of the day and having little further significance. But, on the contrary, the war collectivism served as an inspiration and as a model for a mighty army of forces destined to forge the history of twentieth-century America. For big business, the wartime economy was a model of what could be achieved in national coordination and cartelization, in stabilizing production, prices, and profits, in replacing old fashioned competitive laissez-faire by a system that they could broadly control and that would harmonize the claims of various powerful economic groups.

    A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN, Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State, EDITED BY RONALD RADOSH AND MURRAY N. ROTHBARD,1972, pp 92-93
     

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  127. denk says:
    @Max Payne
    As someone who has to visit the cesspool that is the PRC regularly I can say one thing....

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders.... but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially... but... it's still a far cry from "civilization". Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit... it's still a monkey.

    Regardless... whenever I hear someone talking about how they are learning French or German or Spanish I always tell them "learn Mandarin, everything else won't matter".

    In Fallujah, under conditions of limited food, contaminated water, and massive injuries, for those seeking food, water or medicine there was another problem,
    “there were so many [US] snipers, anyone leaving their house was killed.
    ” On November 12th we learned “among the first major targets [in the assault on Fallujah] were the hospitals.” A civilian hospital and a trauma clinic were destroyed in a massive air raid, the main hospital was captured by US troops, ambulances were prohibited from traveling into the besieged city and delivering patients in need of emergency care (the US also announced that any and all moving civilian vehicles were designated free-fire targets). Much of the city’s water and electricity supplies were cut off making “emergency care all but impossible, in the words of Dr. Hashem Issawi, and contrary to international law, soldiers were “empowered to destroy whatever needs to be destroyed.” In the razed clinic, US bombs took the lives of 15 medics, four nurses and 35 patients, according to clinic worker Dr. Sami al-Jumaili. The Los Angeles Times reported that the manager of Fallujah general hospital “had told a US general the location of the downtown makeshift medical center” before it was hit by US bombs. In a smoke-filled, corpse-strewn landscape of collapsed houses and soot-singed factories, a US captain, fresh from 13 days of “shooting holes in every building,” starkly noted that the only way to proceed is to “destroy everything in your path.”

    Indiscriminate destruction is a war crime in violation of international law as encoded in the Nuremberg Principles. One year later the “wasting” continues…
    ————————

    Max payne
    ‘The Chinese are savages, it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.’

    Would applying lots of lipsticks turn a pig into human ?
    If this stands for ‘civilisation’,
    I’d like to know what’s barbarism ?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  128. @silviosilver
    You should be apologizing for posting the drivel that is this article.

    I don't know what game you're playing by publishing these demented lefties, with whom I'm nigh on certain you don't even remotely agree.

    You're a smart guy, so I trust you know what you're doing. I just hope it's something laudable rather than insidious.

    What do you mean?

    Is this an ad populum or ad verecundiam attack on Ron?

    Does anyone know whether there is something analogous to karoshi in the PRC?

    Read More
    • Replies: @silviosilver
    I'm not attacking Ron. I like Ron, I think he's great. I've been a fan of this site since its inception. But I am mystified by the inclusion in it of people like Michael Hudson and James Petras, whose views on finance and capitalism are inimical to Ron's own. I think there is a real risk of conflating the racial, sexual and cultural realism that is this site's drawcard with the leftwing idiocies spouted by the likes of Hudson, Petras, et al. And yes, deep down, some dark, suspicious side of me does wonder whether Ron isn't attempting that conflation on purpose. I sure as hell hope not.
    , @jacques sheete

    Is this an ad populum or ad verecundiam attack on Ron?
     
    It's neither, and your question is a textbook example of a false dichotomy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  129. Vidi says:
    @The Scalpel
    Did you notice the OP's pseudonym?

    Did you notice the OP’s pseudonym?

    Heh, yes. But sometimes I can’t resist replying.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  130. DB Cooper says:
    @anonymous

    ignorance about China
     
    Just the ignorance that comes from having lived there (Suzhou, Wuhan), and having traveled around the country and the rest of East Asia. Affirmative action in China is a drop in the bucket and barely relevant. Racial pride in China is tied up with national pride, as it is in Japan and Korea, and how it was in Europe and the US before runaway immigration and multiculturalism took over. When Chinese take pride in China, they aren't thinking about how proud they are to be in the same nation as Uighurs or Tibetans. You have a rose-colored view of how racial identity on a personal level works in China.

    China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.
     
    China's "multiracialism" is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren't even remotely comparable. China's minorities are far more similar to the majority population than the minority groups of the West are. Not to mention, they've been inhabiting those regions for thousands of years. You should go ahead and ask them in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag.

    When China experiences Western-style diversity, then you can come back and tell me all about how well civic nationalism works in China and how it is a model for the West.

    “You should go ahead and ask them [China’s minorities ] in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag. ”

    The question has been asked and they are very happy. Studies done by Western sociologist has found out that China’s minorities, and that include the Tibetans and the Uighurs are more nationalistic Chinese than there Han counterparts. This notion that Tibetans and Uighurs are restless living under oppression is just another nonsense propagated by the West. But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.

    Listen to this podcast:


    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.
     
    While that's true, they seem to be astonishingly gullible for other reasons as well. Apparently it's very satisfying to believe in self congratulatory mythology and delusions of superiority even if most of it is vicarious at best.
    , @anonymous
    I never tried to imply that I think the Tibetans and Uighurs are oppressed, just that it's better to take it straight from the horses mouth. Those studies done by 'Western sources' were done in collaboration with Chinese sources. I'm familiar enough with how Chinese compile data to be at least a little skeptical. But thanks, I'll take it with a grain of salt. I don't have the time or energy to look into the veracity of those claims. Although I will admit that there could be quite a bit of truth to it.

    On the whole, I'm pretty optimistic about China's future and their future role in the world. Last time I was there 5 years ago I was very impressed with how much of their cities and certain aspects of their culture seemed to already be at a first world level, despite having such a low gdp per capita. I've also noticed a similar pattern in Southeast Asian countries, especially parts of Thailand, but also in Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia as well. I'm also not as sour on India's prospects as some other people are, but that will probably take quite a bit longer. In India's case, it doesn't help that many Western educated Indians don't go back to their home country in an attempt to help speed up development there.

    However, China's case is especially interesting due to the sheer speed and ease with which they pick up on Western technology and (positive) cultural aspects and mannerism, ect. It strikes me as though their economy has been, in a way, artificially depressed for a very long time. This is why I find it a tad annoying when I see progressives who are interested in China pretend that China's recent success is due to the communist revolution and subsequent interventions. They like to paint China as a communist success story. Looking at Taiwan or South Korea, we already know that this isn't the case. China's success has taken off as soon as they began to embraced a similar style of capitalism (although, not the same) as their Asian neighbors.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  131. Joe Wong says:
    @Skullcrusher
    I visit China ~1-2 yearly for business, but only since 2010. My first hand experience leads me to believe that they are not something to be afraid of and are never destined for world domination. They have cultural issues that mesh poorly with industrial civilization. Every expat you meet will have 20 stories about how screwed up things are. I could talk for hours on the subject. In China a problem is NOT something to solve. It is something to avoid being blamed for. Little problems are shunned and not discussed so they snowball into bigger and bigger problems. The ideas that things should work (at all) and that you should strive to make your part of the world better (as opposed to profiting from the current FUBAR situation) also do not seem to have caught on.

    Also ultimately the thesis of this article is that central planning works, and I have to cry BS on that one. Central planning ultimately fails for basic reasons: human corruption, and the distributed nature of knowledge and incentives. China is incredibly corrupt. Any finite number of geniuses [in central planning] is still dumber than an infinite number of morons [spread throughout the country with local knowledge inaccessible to the central planners] (quote from Thomas Sowell?). Any time decision makers are insulated from the consequences of their decisions they will make bad decisions (forever), even if they are angels. A high performing organization is run by the sergeants, not the generals. The sergeants know what is going on and must deal with the consequences of their decisions. China is run by the generals, and because of the whole "problem" paradigm above, their generals have perhaps less reliable information than any generals on earth. I wish them well all the same. They may accomplish some mischief, so we should be on our guard, but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let's hope we stop that process soon.

    It seems you are very resentful that you cannot rise higher than sergeant but you have to do all the hard work while the officers know nothing take all the credits.

    Has it ever occurred to you that the privates may have the same view about you as you view about the generals, i.e. you are just another layer of central planning that stops the world turning? You are a fine specimen of the one look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye.

    China is rising while the USA is declining; the bad mouthing the expats spewed out in China only shows the expats are jealous, resentful and fearful of Chinese achievements.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Skullcrusher
    Mr. Wong - Instead of projecting your own (stereotypically Chinese) insecurities onto Westerners, could you at least entertain the possibility that I am just reporting what I have observed honestly to the best of my ability without either malice or envy? China IS rising and the US IS declining, but China is rising because you started so far in your self-inflicted hole that you had no where to go but up, and the US is declining because we are committing suicide in slow motion by abandoning the principles and culture that led to our unparalleled success.

    How can the West be jealous or fearful of Chinese achievements? There aren't any. China's achievements in the last 100 years consist of murdering and ruining the lives of more people (almost all Chinamen) than anyone in history, wrecking its own culture; and then badly copying the West to try to catch up, while simultaneously engineering its own future demographic collapse along with the world's biggest real estate bubble.

    Face it. No matter how right you think you are, you will always be wong.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  132. Joe Wong says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Civilization simply means complex society. A society with urbanization, government, class stratification, etc.

    It certainly does not mean human rights, peace, or whatever other wishy-washy things people THINK it means.

    In fact, the entire purpose of civilization was warfare. Switching from hunting to agriculture allowed for large populations, governments, and armies in order to attack and subjugate neighbors.

    In any case you misunderstood the democracy and human rights nonsense coming from the West. Many Westerners--not me--really do believe in this garbage. It is a post-Christian religion. Of course this religion, like religions in the past, is occasionally used as an rationalization for imperialism.

    And as far as your misuse of the term civilization (again, this does not mean refraining from warfare, quite the opposite), I'll note that our civilization has reached a higher apogee and achieved more than any other civilization in history.

    Your civilization is of course worthy of great respect and is in the process of eclipsing mine, so I mean no disrespect to you or to China. I think China's rise is positive inasmuch as it helps delegitimize human rights, democracy, and other such garbage that is consuming the West.

    But I can't stand this appalling, weakness-worshipping nonsense that suggests it is somehow WRONG to engage in conflict with your rivals. Other than my bird-brained liberal neighbors this mentality generally comes from LOSERS who seek to convince WINNERS that winning is somehow wrong.

    Perhaps it is you view of the world or your believe of humanity, but Chinese do not share your view. Chinese believe that we are now living in a rapidly changing world…Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I am not sure if you do speak for all Chinese, but let's say you do.

    The zero sum mentality predates the Cold War and will not go away.

    This is because it is real.

    Wealth may not be zero sum, but POWER is.

    China becoming more powerful means relatively less power for my country. From my perspective, this is unfortunate. Of course this is positive from your perspective. This is why conflict exists.

    That said, there is a new dynamic--since 1945. Now there is the possibility of nuclear war. The risk of this appears so great that we are better off cooperating regardless.

    Thus despite my rhetoric, I am in fact more in favor of peaceful relations with China than the American mainstream.

    It seems to me that China will inevitably become more powerful than us, which greatly upsets me, but that the price to attempt to stop this is not worth paying.

    Best, as Trump says, to get a good deal.
    , @jbwilson24
    "Chinese believe that we are now living in a rapidly changing world"

    Well, the world has been 'rapidly changing' for some time now. This is hardly an earth shattering claim. See the steam engine or printing press.


    "…Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times."

    Yes, all that peace that I see. The idea that ethnic groups are suddenly going to stop competing and start cooperating is the sort of nonsense that you would expect to see out of a left wing social work conference in Leipzig or Gothenburg.

    As for 'development' has become the trend of our times, it's so vague that I'm not even sure what you mean.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  133. Alden says:

    I stopped reading after his third attack in Whites and the civilization our ancestors created. He probably has to write such things to be published. But since I and mine are White, I take attacks on Whites personally.

    Also, I remember the 1980s when numerous books and articles were written claiming Japan would soon rule the world.

    I wish China would create its own pension system instead of using America as its old age pension system.

    Read More
    • Replies: @George Orwell
    You would be a fool to think Japan's economic situation is comparable to China.
    , @Joe Wong
    Exposing lies told about China, correcting facts distorted about China, and clearing smear painted on China is not an attack on the White. Retelling the ugly part of the history the West neither discussed nor crictized is not an attack on the civilization your ancestors created.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  134. Joe Wong says:
    @eah
    http://online.wsj.com/media/shbuilding_E_20100211045212.jpg

    The guy manged the project got an Harvard MBA.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  135. Joe Wong says:
    @Che Guava
    Random points, flow was better the first time.

    Deng's 'reforms' were destroying not just the rurcommunes (in most places), but also rural education and health care.

    Also creating the floating labour army (50 million or so), who are not enjoying good conditions.

    The CPSU in Stalin times, was using the term 'primitive socialist accumulation'. In Russia, post-collapse of USSR, mainly Jewish oligarchs, often descending from very minor functionaries, were to robbing the place, with co-ordinated assistance from co-ethnic neocon 'advisors' from the USA.

    In China, having warning from that, party hierarchs and managers of older industrial formations were playing the similar role.

    China is also to being congratulated on being serious about population control, but second and third trimester abortions are murder, and I would suggesting that any post-conception are.

    However, I am agreeing with the principie, only because humans are like a locust plague on the earth.

    Who is enjoying the sparkling SF world that Brown is describing?

    Party thieves, children of former state-business managers.

    Aiso stealing much tech, much on China's high-speda rail is stolen from Japan, they put out tenders, but the only objective is theft.

    Aiso stealing much tech, much on China’s high-speda rail is stolen from Japan, they put out tenders, but the only objective is theft.

    It seems the Japanese not only denying their war crimes they are also copying the bad habit of the American by claiming credit where credit is not due.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    IIRC, joe wong is a character in a Japanese-made video game. 格闘 (fighting) genre, I am still liking them.

    It may having some other connection for you.

    That the PRC govt. offers tenders on express rail, does not accepting any, then sucks up the tech., it is the simple fact.

    Their high-speed trains are looking like almost direct copies of Japanese designs.

    Your post was hostile, please refuting me in a polite manner, if you can.
    , @üeljang
    Please take note: Che is not Japanese.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  136. Alden says:
    @Joe Wong
    The video showed the Tibetans are performing their cult rituals in Lhasa Tibet China nowadays, if Tibetan’s religion is suppressed as the western narrator said in the video was true, then you will not see so many Tibetans performing those cult rituals so publicly for the West to film for their demonizing China propaganda. It is sad that your racial bigotry blinds you from picking up such contradiction right from beginning of the video.

    Dalai Lama was a wealthy slave owning Tibetan ‘compradores’ imported British goods and facilitated the takeover of local markets and resources in Tibet, as well as allowing the Anglo imperialist pillage forced greater exploitation and taxation of the great mass of Tibetans to suit the needs of the empire.

    The British and American are resentful that CCP terminated their exploitation of Tibetans, imperial domination of Tibet and the gratification of their White supremacy in front of the poverty ridden Tibetans. CCP exposed their imperialist undertaking in engineering Tibetan war lords arm revolt against Chinese central government and the exile of the Dalai Lama and his mentally colonized Tibetan ‘compradores’ by capturing the British and American agents during the putting down of the Tibetan armed rebellion. The British and American are vindictive, so they continue their anti-China propaganda with fake news like the videos you posted.

    The Dalai Lama is a wolf in monk's robes, a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast. Under the Dalai Lama rule, the Tibetan Constitution makes slavery/serfdom legal.
    It allows the buying and selling of Tibetans as slaves/serfs.
    The Dalai Lama in 1951 himself had owned 6500 slaves
    All the monasteries had owned slaves who do all the menial/dirty work.
    It divides Tibetan people into 3 main castes and 12 sub-castes --- with the slaves, the lowest castes.
    (1) the Tibetan nick-names for slaves was "Two-legged cattle"
    (2) these slaves were indeed bought and sold like cattle
    (3) They live in the cattle-shed together with the cattle
    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking "Who is your master?" instead of "what is your name"?
    *5) They were routinely tortured, abused, raped by their masters; gouging eyes, chopping hands and skinning alive were the common penalties under the Dalai Lama rule.
    (6) They had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter
    (7) When the escaped slaves ran to the monasteries for help they were told by monks to accept their Fate as KARMA --- and not to rebel , otherwise they would re-incarnate as something worse

    All of the above, the British and the American were serving the Dalai Lama as political advisors on the governing council.

    A Chinese diplomat assigned to the consulate in San Francisco told me about the horrors of slavery in Tibet including mutilating and cutting off limbs.

    He lived on tree bark soup during the great cultural revolution. His party came out on top when the great cultural revolution ended.

    I thought he was exaggerating the horrors of slavery in Tibet to justify the Chinese take over of Tibet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Propaganda is always a mix of truth and fiction.

    That said, a ruling caste of men without families naturally leads to its expected abuses, even if you call them monks.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  137. @Joe Wong
    Perhaps it is you view of the world or your believe of humanity, but Chinese do not share your view. Chinese believe that we are now living in a rapidly changing world...Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.

    I am not sure if you do speak for all Chinese, but let’s say you do.

    The zero sum mentality predates the Cold War and will not go away.

    This is because it is real.

    Wealth may not be zero sum, but POWER is.

    China becoming more powerful means relatively less power for my country. From my perspective, this is unfortunate. Of course this is positive from your perspective. This is why conflict exists.

    That said, there is a new dynamic–since 1945. Now there is the possibility of nuclear war. The risk of this appears so great that we are better off cooperating regardless.

    Thus despite my rhetoric, I am in fact more in favor of peaceful relations with China than the American mainstream.

    It seems to me that China will inevitably become more powerful than us, which greatly upsets me, but that the price to attempt to stop this is not worth paying.

    Best, as Trump says, to get a good deal.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  138. @Alden
    I stopped reading after his third attack in Whites and the civilization our ancestors created. He probably has to write such things to be published. But since I and mine are White, I take attacks on Whites personally.

    Also, I remember the 1980s when numerous books and articles were written claiming Japan would soon rule the world.

    I wish China would create its own pension system instead of using America as its old age pension system.

    You would be a fool to think Japan’s economic situation is comparable to China.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  139. @lucidian
    Sounds like Chinese government talking points. Chinese are not a warm people. Every Chinese person I have met is cold and aggressive. Every culture has its warts, but China's are massive, far off the scale of anything any Western country has done. China killed tens of millions of its own people under Mao only a few decades ago. Look in the mirror, Joe Wong. Your people have great shame, and immense carnage to answer for. You should be looking after your own and not be lecturing anyone.

    No, nothing China has ever done is as sadistic and cruel as what the West does on a regular basis. A reckoning is coming and people like you should be ashamed and afraid of what your culture has to answer for.

    Read More
    • Replies: @lucidian
    No culture is without its warts, without its dark side. But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  140. MEFOBILLS says:
    @therevolutionwas
    China has figured out the "crony capitalism" of the west. They have also figured out the fiat money scheme of the west, which is why they have been accumulating gold for decades. Capitalism is not to blame, it is the governments that have taken over the market place with fiat money, welfare state debts and regulations that is to blame for the west's current condition. To the extent that China (and Russia and others) lets the markets be free they will succeed. Let us hope they eschew crony banking and go to a gold/silver/commodity backed currency, and then stand back and let the world advance. But first the present world economy must perish.

    China has state banks. Fully 70 percent of their money supply originates at these large State owned banks. This is not the “fiat” private banking system of the West.

    China cancels Yuan debts, and this effectively puts debt free money into the supply. Also, China channels new Yuan money at industry. This is called industrial capitalism, invented by Frederick List, and Peshine Smith. Smith’s system was called the American System, and List’s system was used in Germany by the Kaiser and then later by Hitler. Hitler’s Germany was hugely productive and had development patterns similar to China. Japanese copied industrial capitalism and used it in Manchuria during WW2. The Japanese railroad engineers of Manchuria post war used a variant of Industrial Capitalism by using credit guidance windows. This then caused the postwar Japanese miracle.

    With industrial capitalism you get a virtuous cycle of investment then equity, then more investment then more equity. With debt based financial capitalism you get debt, more taxes, more debt. One is virtuous cycle, the other is spiraling downward. Finance Capitalism siphons off the productive surplus, and vectors it into financial markets, where it becomes a Casino of false signaling.

    An economic historian like me can easily see what China is doing. The fact that the West has been taken over by Finance Capitalism is because English/Zion won in WW2. Bad atlantacist and debt based money systems then fully jumped to America … the parasite jumped to a new host. This system of private debt money, and then usurious financial instruments traded in markets, is a fundamentally flawed economic model.

    China is not doing anything the West didn’t already try, it is just that these successful Western economic experiments were strangled in their crib by super predators who feared that their rent taking schemes would perish.

    China’s economy is fascist, in that it is a command system OVER private corporations. But, since the word fascism has a negative connotation, people are afraid to use it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    Every word you say here is true. Today's situation between China and the US is very much like that between Germany and Britain circa 1900: China is the rising power, while the US has clearly peaked and is now in decline. Last time, the parasites were able to destroy Germany through war; but these days there are ICBMs. What are they going to do now?

    As far as China's economic system is concerned, I would categorize it as a variant of National Socialism; or, if you prefer, a kind of Communism with a robust, for-profit export sector (the USSR never had that).

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  141. Lin says:
    @wayfarer
    Tibet China Conflict: Religion and the Cultural Revolution
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAJNR1Z_Il0

    Tibet Situation: Critical
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqdQtwFjeMY

    Tibet Situation Critical !!! except for Dalai’s boys who are fond of like spiritual/dharmic gay rape !!
    (historically about 1/3 of Tibet males were monks, later fortunately reduced by the Chinese gov)

    https://www.upi.com/Feature-Buddhisms-pedophile-monks/81841020273948/

    “..”In fact, when the Jesuits arrived in China and Japan in the 16th century, they were horrified by the formalized relationships between Buddhist monks and novices who were still children…
    …. this practice continued until well into 20th century,,,
    …We also know that generations of Dalai Lamas had their ‘favorites,….”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  142. @Another Realist
    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. The reality is both China and India are over populated countries mired in their ancient cultures that encourage endemic corruption. It's been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    Indians are further hobbled by their propensity for violence.

    Would modern infrastructure drag a people out of their ancient cultures and send them into the modern age? The late Samuel Huntington discussed this fine point in his excellent book Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. Huntington pointed out that countries can be modernized without being westernized. Singapore and Japan for instance, are both modernized, but Singapore is a lot more westernized than Japan. Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    By nature the Japanese are very much like the English, law abiding, civic minded, polite. The Chinese are more like Italians, breaking the law when they can get away with it, every man for himself, dog eat dog, rude and loud. Since 70% of Singapore's inhabitants are Chinese, Lee Kuan Yew set out to rid the Chinese of their bad cultural norms by adopting English as the lingua franca and primary language of instruction. He then set up a corruption free government by first paying his cabinet members high salaries to prevent them from being enticed by graft, made every government employee wear a name tag and encourage all citizens to report any government employee that solicits bribe in any way. By such draconian measures he was able to rid the Chinese in Singapore of their propensity for corruption.

    China seeks to emulate Singapore without adopting the two most salient features instituted by Lee Kuan Yew - adoption of English as a primary language of instruction, and paying the cabinet members high enough salaries to prevent them from succumbing to bribes. The president of China makes only US$26,000 a year, that is a joke compared to cabinet members of Singapore who each make US$700,000 a year. That's why China will not be the next Singapore, it will instead become another Malaysia or Russia, mired in corruption and unable to escape the middle income trap. As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption. Corruption will eventually bring down the CPC and China, as it has brought down every single Chinese dynasty throughout its history. Unchecked power always corrupts.

    India is hopeless. It won't even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.

    India is a giant toilet bowl masquerading as a country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    >''India is a giant toilet bowl masquerading as a country.<''

    It was an even bigger toilet bowl when colonialism ended. It is getting smaller.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  143. @Thales the Milesian
    What do you mean?

    Is this an ad populum or ad verecundiam attack on Ron?

    Does anyone know whether there is something analogous to karoshi in the PRC?

    I’m not attacking Ron. I like Ron, I think he’s great. I’ve been a fan of this site since its inception. But I am mystified by the inclusion in it of people like Michael Hudson and James Petras, whose views on finance and capitalism are inimical to Ron’s own. I think there is a real risk of conflating the racial, sexual and cultural realism that is this site’s drawcard with the leftwing idiocies spouted by the likes of Hudson, Petras, et al. And yes, deep down, some dark, suspicious side of me does wonder whether Ron isn’t attempting that conflation on purpose. I sure as hell hope not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    So basically, damned if you do, damned if you don't. If a Jew provides an uncensored platform for people to express their views, and left leaning views happen to appear, it's a scheme to bundle radical leftism together with with the most appealing elements of rightism. On the other hand, if a Jew censors certain views, it's because he's concealing ideas that would result in his demise. You people are deranged.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  144. @Daniel Chieh
    Generals, sergeants, etc all assume that its still humans running the operation. In a world of digital centralization, machine learning and big data, such assumptions should be questioned. Technology changes the practicality of many endeavors once thought impossible.

    You just disqualified yourself from invoking machine learning. You obviously have no idea how many humans it takes to keep machine learning applications running.

    The great irony is that you Asia pumpers seem to have forgotten a lot of the lessons that have already been learned. Top-down command and control economies don’t work, for a variety of reasons. Adding ‘machine learning’ and other forms of decision making won’t change that. The failure of cybernetics and operations research when applied to urban systems is but one example of a legacy that Asians seem spectacularly poor at discovering.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The role which I'm envisioning for machine learning is not specifically in its "decision-making" ability but rather in its ability to enable the creation of machines that acts as monitoring agents which replace roles previously occupied by humans(such human agents served as an impediment to centralization in the past). For one example, machine learning algorithms that have enabled systems to read handwriting have reduced the need for human tellers to act in such a role, bypassing the human component and improving recording accuracy in for example, cashing a check.

    One of the major challenges of centralization in the past was that information becomes essentially more corrupted at every level of transmission, akin to the game of telephone. But if information integrity is preserved, better decisions can be made top-down.

    Its hard to argue, at any rate, that history doesn't show ever-increasing centralization of society along with the march of technology. The Soviet Cheka would dream to have as much information as, for example, Google(which is not even a government).

    The only disruption to this would be if, as Che said, that cheap energy ceases to be or alternatively if machine transmission of data ultimately have excessive negative externalities(like nuclear power plants as Che implied do); I don't believe either will happen anytime soon.

    , @Vidi

    The great irony is that you Asia pumpers seem to have forgotten a lot of the lessons that have already been learned. Top-down command and control economies don’t work, for a variety of reasons.
     
    Purely top-down economies may be too rigid to work well. Purely bottom-up economies tend to lack foresight and probably will also fail in the longer run. Somewhere in the middle, some mixture of top-down (socialism) and bottom-up (capitalism), is probably the sweet spot. This is what China has.

    I think that foresight, long-term planning, strategy -- call it what you will -- is most important, so the socialist part should predominate. As it does in China.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  145. @Joe Wong
    Perhaps it is you view of the world or your believe of humanity, but Chinese do not share your view. Chinese believe that we are now living in a rapidly changing world...Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.

    “Chinese believe that we are now living in a rapidly changing world”

    Well, the world has been ‘rapidly changing’ for some time now. This is hardly an earth shattering claim. See the steam engine or printing press.

    “…Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times.”

    Yes, all that peace that I see. The idea that ethnic groups are suddenly going to stop competing and start cooperating is the sort of nonsense that you would expect to see out of a left wing social work conference in Leipzig or Gothenburg.

    As for ‘development’ has become the trend of our times, it’s so vague that I’m not even sure what you mean.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  146. @hyperbola
    Wonder how "capitalist" Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China? Or why "capitalist" Japan and South Korea have four-times greater coverage of their population with high-speed trains than China. China has less coverage than west european nations in general. It does manage to beat the coverage in Turkey. Informative table here.

    Ranking internacional de trenes de alta velocidad
    https://www.goeuro.es/trenes/alta-velocidad

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China?

    They were probably forced on them by EU bankers and politicians in much the same way that Greece became indebted to the retard bastard$ for infrastructure that no one needs and few use.

    One can drive all over the country on highways that are barely used and that are in far superior condition to anything one sees in the US. They were likely built with loans from corrupt EU bankers imposed on the people by corrupt politicians over whom the people have no more control than we in the corrupt US have.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  147. @polaco
    It's perverse to call the West capitalist. I'm not 100% sure but in France 60% of her GDP is government spending. She's not less and less socialist like the author claims. Macron wants an EU wide tax to keep her alive. And to call America libertarian-capitalist is ridiculous. Just look what government involvement in medical care has caused, the costs are out of control. If somehow individual and corporate income taxes were abolished, and most government departments liquidated- and government has never shrunk, it always grows bigger and deeper like metastatic cancer, if people were free to do or not to do business with whomever they wanted, direct investment would skyrocket, capital would flow back to America and China would be left in the dust. The way things stand now, morons want free stuff from their government without understanding the consequences, the national security sector must never have its budget slashed, and corporations are lobbying the government to rig the game in their favor. Human nature hasn't changed in thousands of years and history is never forgiving as it's being made.

    And to call America libertarian-capitalist is ridiculous.

    To call it free and moral is also ridiculous. Ineffably so.

    The US, contrary to the standard myths (myths which will probably never die), was in fact never designed to accommodate a pure, generalized laissez faire capitalism. The tables were always tilted in favor of the collectivist capitalists who are masters at collectivizing risk while privatizing profits.

    The system was always designed to favor the big money crowd in various ways including direct and indirect subsidies and including special favors such as no bid contracts and bailouts. The collectivist part of it really took off under Wilson and as a result of WW1 to the cheers of the biggest monopolists and the US has been almost totally a centrally planned, de facto militaristic fascist state since Hoover and FDR and WW2.

    Required reading for anyone interested in myth busting is the source of this quote.

    Historians have generally treated the economic planning of World War I as an isolated episode dictated by the requirements of the day and having little further significance. But, on the contrary, the war collectivism served as an inspiration and as a model for a mighty army of forces destined to forge the history of twentieth-century America. For big business, the wartime economy was a model of what could be achieved in national coordination and cartelization, in stabilizing production, prices, and profits, in replacing old fashioned competitive laissez-faire by a system that they could broadly control and that would harmonize the claims of various powerful economic groups.

    A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN, Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State, EDITED BY RONALD RADOSH AND MURRAY N. ROTHBARD,1972, pp 92-93

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  148. @Drapetomaniac
    "The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!"

    You can take man out of the animal world but you can't take the animal world out of man.

    That's why man's attempts at civilization are such kludges.

    You can take man out of the animal world but you can’t take the animal world out of man.

    That’s why man’s attempts at civilization are such kludges.

    Well stated. It’s also why I laugh at those who pat themselves on the back for claiming to be part of a civilized society. Even the “high IQ” ones must have low standards for the label, or they don’t understand what it’s supposed to mean.

    I also find it amusing that so many people who have neither the mental facilities to count their change accurately nor the moral integrity to care for a dog properly nevertheless feel qualified to have a valid opinion on the desirability of government.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  149. MChinese success is mostly West made as without massive Western investments and outright transfer of manufacturing base from USA and other countries China would not have chance to rise in such manner
    It lacked in every department, both resources, tech and human factor to achieve such rise on her own. Attempts by Mao and early Deng were quite I structure as real take off happened in 90s-2000 when it poured from the West. Now everything in stores is made in China… Why? Because everything was offshored. The whole project is also not sustainable long term and the scale is so huge because population size requires this. Same rates of growth with say 150 -300 mill in population would not have been as impressive. I also wonder how much of this activities is mere waste and debt without any long term benefits.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lin
    " Chinese success is mostly West made as without massive Western investments and outright transfer of manufacturing base from USA and other countries China would not have chance to rise in such manner.."
    That's simply untrue. Just tell me how much western investment on labour intensive manufacture in china compared to internal Chinese investment?
    Do you have any idea how much does it cost to build an integrated steel plant(I mean together with the rolling mill, mines and rail transport set up) of 1 million ton/yr capacity or a coal or gas fired 1 million KW electric power plant? The figures I got are 1 -2 $billion. In case you aren't aware Chinese steel capacity is something between 800 million to 1 billion ton, about 50% of the world's total
    A nation like China doesn't grow economically by making shirts or toys for the yanks. However, here I must state that china did import(and pay for)continuous steel casting tech from japan.

    That Chinese economical success is 'mostly West made' is simply untrue
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  150. @Thales the Milesian
    What do you mean?

    Is this an ad populum or ad verecundiam attack on Ron?

    Does anyone know whether there is something analogous to karoshi in the PRC?

    Is this an ad populum or ad verecundiam attack on Ron?

    It’s neither, and your question is a textbook example of a false dichotomy.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  151. @DB Cooper
    "You should go ahead and ask them [China’s minorities ] in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag. "

    The question has been asked and they are very happy. Studies done by Western sociologist has found out that China's minorities, and that include the Tibetans and the Uighurs are more nationalistic Chinese than there Han counterparts. This notion that Tibetans and Uighurs are restless living under oppression is just another nonsense propagated by the West. But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.

    Listen to this podcast:

    http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2013/10/bia_20131016.mp3

    But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.

    While that’s true, they seem to be astonishingly gullible for other reasons as well. Apparently it’s very satisfying to believe in self congratulatory mythology and delusions of superiority even if most of it is vicarious at best.

    Read More
    • Replies: @George Orwell
    In these troubling times, the only thing most Westerners can do is linger on fond memories of their ancestors’ past glory while denigrating the achievements of those who still dare to be ambitious and dynamic.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  152. @Skullcrusher
    I visit China ~1-2 yearly for business, but only since 2010. My first hand experience leads me to believe that they are not something to be afraid of and are never destined for world domination. They have cultural issues that mesh poorly with industrial civilization. Every expat you meet will have 20 stories about how screwed up things are. I could talk for hours on the subject. In China a problem is NOT something to solve. It is something to avoid being blamed for. Little problems are shunned and not discussed so they snowball into bigger and bigger problems. The ideas that things should work (at all) and that you should strive to make your part of the world better (as opposed to profiting from the current FUBAR situation) also do not seem to have caught on.

    Also ultimately the thesis of this article is that central planning works, and I have to cry BS on that one. Central planning ultimately fails for basic reasons: human corruption, and the distributed nature of knowledge and incentives. China is incredibly corrupt. Any finite number of geniuses [in central planning] is still dumber than an infinite number of morons [spread throughout the country with local knowledge inaccessible to the central planners] (quote from Thomas Sowell?). Any time decision makers are insulated from the consequences of their decisions they will make bad decisions (forever), even if they are angels. A high performing organization is run by the sergeants, not the generals. The sergeants know what is going on and must deal with the consequences of their decisions. China is run by the generals, and because of the whole "problem" paradigm above, their generals have perhaps less reliable information than any generals on earth. I wish them well all the same. They may accomplish some mischief, so we should be on our guard, but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let's hope we stop that process soon.

    Skull.. your whole comment applies equally well to what’s going on in the US. especially the parts about corruption and lack of accountability.

    …but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let’s hope we stop that process soon.

    The evidence seems clear that “we” (i.e. our collectivist parasitic rulers) have been busy committing “suicide” on we, the masses, for some time. If it were not for abundant natural resources, cheap energy sources, and creative thievery, all of which have been mostly squandered, the US would have gone completely “tits up” long ago.

    The process is a one-way street, I think.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I tend to think of things as a race..to the bottom.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  153. Joe Wong says:
    @Sergey Krieger
    I wonder how many think Chinese project is sustainable long term considering size of their population and resources limits? They are already drowning in debt and ecological consequences of their growth. Last time I was in China in 2001 the air was dirty I could barely see. I guess it is a lot worse now.

    You should know the belief that only the White can invent and only the White can succeed is a religious myth.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    It is not because of that. But basically you are very close. So far no Chinese geniuses ever.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  154. Joe Wong says:
    @Alden
    I stopped reading after his third attack in Whites and the civilization our ancestors created. He probably has to write such things to be published. But since I and mine are White, I take attacks on Whites personally.

    Also, I remember the 1980s when numerous books and articles were written claiming Japan would soon rule the world.

    I wish China would create its own pension system instead of using America as its old age pension system.

    Exposing lies told about China, correcting facts distorted about China, and clearing smear painted on China is not an attack on the White. Retelling the ugly part of the history the West neither discussed nor crictized is not an attack on the civilization your ancestors created.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You are rightly correcting the mistakes told about your country. But then you turn around and do the exact same thing about india what some people here are doing about china !!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  155. @jacques sheete

    But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.
     
    While that's true, they seem to be astonishingly gullible for other reasons as well. Apparently it's very satisfying to believe in self congratulatory mythology and delusions of superiority even if most of it is vicarious at best.

    In these troubling times, the only thing most Westerners can do is linger on fond memories of their ancestors’ past glory while denigrating the achievements of those who still dare to be ambitious and dynamic.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  156. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @lucidian
    China is a third world country. China is a thieving country. The Chinese have ZERO respect for intellectual property. Chinese people, like the Japanese, are obedient, and can be marshaled by their leaders to partake in great projects. But, like the Japanese, they do not invent. They are not a creative people.

    Chinese are well known as the most racist people on the planet. They are not a fair people. They are an aggressive, cold-hearted people.

    China may yet eclipse America, but only because America is intent on destroying itself. Not because China is virtuous. China is a cancer.

    China has ascended in a parasitic way. They have taken advantage of America's stupidity and kindness and trust. If America regains her pride, and wakes up to the Chinese plunder and puts an end to it, China's rise will be severely curtailed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @lucidian
    Fascinating reads, both links. There are no doubt many smart people among the Japanese and Chinese, and much to be proud of. My central point is that creativity and obedience are opposite. Inventions are invented by people who question authority and convention. Japanese and Chinese cultures emphasize obedience and thus suppress creativity. Who knows what could have happened if their cultures were not so focused on conformity?

    Time and time again we've heard of inventions that were suppressed or forgotten in Chinese history. It is the culture that does that, not the individual. Western culture, by emphasizing the individual (imperfectly, to be sure), has unleashed far greater human flourishing than any other culture.

    Some of the inventions listed in the Wikipedia articles are silly, some are great. But stacked against the West's inventions and discoveries, the lists are puny. So, it's relative. By Western standards, China has been far less inventive. And I expect it will continue to be so, unless the West continues down the road of self-hatred. To be sure, there are many who would prefer that course, not the least of whom is the Chinese.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  157. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver
    India is a giant toilet bowl masquerading as a country.

    >”India is a giant toilet bowl masquerading as a country.<''

    It was an even bigger toilet bowl when colonialism ended. It is getting smaller.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  158. @MEFOBILLS
    China has state banks. Fully 70 percent of their money supply originates at these large State owned banks. This is not the "fiat" private banking system of the West.

    China cancels Yuan debts, and this effectively puts debt free money into the supply. Also, China channels new Yuan money at industry. This is called industrial capitalism, invented by Frederick List, and Peshine Smith. Smith's system was called the American System, and List's system was used in Germany by the Kaiser and then later by Hitler. Hitler's Germany was hugely productive and had development patterns similar to China. Japanese copied industrial capitalism and used it in Manchuria during WW2. The Japanese railroad engineers of Manchuria post war used a variant of Industrial Capitalism by using credit guidance windows. This then caused the postwar Japanese miracle.

    With industrial capitalism you get a virtuous cycle of investment then equity, then more investment then more equity. With debt based financial capitalism you get debt, more taxes, more debt. One is virtuous cycle, the other is spiraling downward. Finance Capitalism siphons off the productive surplus, and vectors it into financial markets, where it becomes a Casino of false signaling.

    An economic historian like me can easily see what China is doing. The fact that the West has been taken over by Finance Capitalism is because English/Zion won in WW2. Bad atlantacist and debt based money systems then fully jumped to America ... the parasite jumped to a new host. This system of private debt money, and then usurious financial instruments traded in markets, is a fundamentally flawed economic model.

    China is not doing anything the West didn't already try, it is just that these successful Western economic experiments were strangled in their crib by super predators who feared that their rent taking schemes would perish.

    China's economy is fascist, in that it is a command system OVER private corporations. But, since the word fascism has a negative connotation, people are afraid to use it.

    Every word you say here is true. Today’s situation between China and the US is very much like that between Germany and Britain circa 1900: China is the rising power, while the US has clearly peaked and is now in decline. Last time, the parasites were able to destroy Germany through war; but these days there are ICBMs. What are they going to do now?

    As far as China’s economic system is concerned, I would categorize it as a variant of National Socialism; or, if you prefer, a kind of Communism with a robust, for-profit export sector (the USSR never had that).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vox coyote
    Thanks, this reality of our debt slavery needs far more promulgation. The real reason behind WW2.
    , @MEFOBILLS
    I agree. National Socialism. It is a successful model, but our ((friends)) have so hypnotized populations, that one cannot even rationally look at it, speak of it, or analyze it, without being labeled an anti-semite.

    The Chinese have no such guilt. A Jew labeling Chinese as anti-semites, would be laughed out of the room. And, as you say, Chinese have ICBM's.

    A good parasite will tell the host what to think, what to eat, where to walk. A very effective parasite will even get the host to think said parasite is its child, to be protected at all costs.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  159. @jacques sheete
    Skull.. your whole comment applies equally well to what's going on in the US. especially the parts about corruption and lack of accountability.

    ...but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let’s hope we stop that process soon.
     
    The evidence seems clear that "we" (i.e. our collectivist parasitic rulers) have been busy committing "suicide" on we, the masses, for some time. If it were not for abundant natural resources, cheap energy sources, and creative thievery, all of which have been mostly squandered, the US would have gone completely "tits up" long ago.

    The process is a one-way street, I think.

    I tend to think of things as a race..to the bottom.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  160. @Seamus Padraig
    Every word you say here is true. Today's situation between China and the US is very much like that between Germany and Britain circa 1900: China is the rising power, while the US has clearly peaked and is now in decline. Last time, the parasites were able to destroy Germany through war; but these days there are ICBMs. What are they going to do now?

    As far as China's economic system is concerned, I would categorize it as a variant of National Socialism; or, if you prefer, a kind of Communism with a robust, for-profit export sector (the USSR never had that).

    Thanks, this reality of our debt slavery needs far more promulgation. The real reason behind WW2.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  161. Joe Wong says:
    @Erebus
    My first experience of China was sometime in 1990, and I visited often and then finally gave up on it. My 1st visa restricted my movement to designated parts of Shenzhen, and there were checkpoints all over the city. On my 2nd or 3rd visit, I was allowed to go to Guangzhou by train - a 4-5 hour ride on what must have been a WW2 era train with every imaginable sort of passenger including 4-legged. By 1992-ish I figured it would take generations for China to climb out of the hole they were in.

    Tried India instead and had somewhat better luck there. They weren't in as deep a hole, or so it seemed, and it was far easier to communicate. The bureaucracy, however, was noticeably more obtuse, and delighted in foisting impenetrable documentary requirements on anyone who would dare to export. Importing was even worse, even smoothed over by the customary bribes.

    I had occasion to revisit China in the later '90s and was stunned to see where less than a decade of development had taken it. Still in a hole, but one could see it wasn't going to take "generations" to climb out. A critical mass had been reached. The energy level was addictive. Everybody was an entrepreneur, and going hard at it. Nothing was easy, but suddenly everything was possible.

    China turned on the after-burners when it joined the WTO in 2001 and what it is today is several generations ahead of what it was in 2000, and adding a Spain every year.
    The 1990s China is still visible, the ugly, ultra plain, utilitarian factories and apartment buildings are still standing in pockets and 2nd-3rd tier cities, but even that is disappearing fast. 20 yr old buildings built at a time of frenetic expansion aged even less gracefully than they were built, and are coming down in massive re-development schemes at a rate that beggars belief.

    Meanwhile India, socio-economically at least, is still pretty much where it was in the early '90s. What's the difference? Why was China, speaking almost no English, coming out from under an even more closed, oppressive system, and behind India & Pakistan on a GDP(PPP)/ca basis in 1990, so much more successful? I gotta believe that the answer is largely Governance.

    Since the Song Dynasty, Governance has been the highest of high arts in the Chinese pantheon. The civil service attracts the best of the best, and the best of those are nurtured through the system to become mayors, county & provincial governors, and finally in the national government after a career of proving themselves. What's the criteria for a politician? To a very large extent it comes down to how pleased the people living in the area are with the job he's done. Local governments seem to do an enormous amount of polling to stay on top of what people like and don't like about their communities. There's usually a comment box asking you to grade the performance of every gov counter worker from the Immigration official who looks at your passport when you enter, to the police station, to the tax office, to the hospital admittance desk. That works, because if the governor/mayor/village leader/counter worker is at all ambitious, getting the people what they want is how they get graded and move up the food chain.

    LaoTzu's idea that the ideal ruler is the one nobody notices while great things happen apparently of their own accord seems to have been the guiding principle that BaBa Beijing et al follow. Hi-speed rails criss-cross the country, railway stations, airports, seaports, highways, hospitals pop up out of the ground like mushrooms, while Australian beef, Danish cheeses, Thai curries and French wines suddenly fill the shelves. One wonders where the hell they all came from, but there they are, and once there they seem to have always been there. A people who couldn't leave the country a couple decades ago, are now the world's greatest tourists, and there's demand for the things they found attractive in their travels. To have guided this astonishing development with so little error is itself astonishing. To be sure, there's plenty of disconnects and slippage, but in the grand scheme it's just background noise. The signal overpowers it with ease.

    At the time of the 1st Opium War, China was 33% of the world economy, trading places with India for #1 spot for 2000 yrs. It all fell apart for both of them in the 1800s. Ancient, agrarian/artisan, politically decadent cultures ran up against industrial powers that had it all over them. Having re-tooled their culture for the 21st century, the Chinese are on their way to getting back to their natural position. India needs to re-tool as well, but I see no Mao or Deng on their horizon. Meanwhile, the West is in the process of de-tooling its culture, perhaps on its way back to being agrarian/artisan again. It's gonna be a strange century, methinks.

    Before 1947 there was no such nation called “India.” “India” is a western imperialist creation to enslave the Asians against the will of the indigenous people of South Asia, it is illegitimate alien and harmful to the Asians. The current “India” is an extension of its former colonial master, British imperialist, spreading their toxic divide-and-conquer discord among the Asians. Unless this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva get destroyed this toxic cancer will destroy all humanity with its regressive, inhuman and barbaric caste system.

    Half of the “India” is in armed struggles against this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva regime in New Delhi; it is time to support those freedom fighters to shake off the inhuman caste system yoke impose on them by the Hindutva.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Malla
    A typical Chinese imperialist idiot straight out of Commie brainwashing school.

    This is the Mughal Empire

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire#/media/File:Mughal1700.png

    This is the Maurya Empire in the year 250 BC when China was a bunch of small states.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire#/media/File:Maurya_Empire,_c.250_BCE_2.png

    Chinese commie imperialist wants to break up great Bharatvarsha, keep dreaming.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  162. @Alden
    A Chinese diplomat assigned to the consulate in San Francisco told me about the horrors of slavery in Tibet including mutilating and cutting off limbs.

    He lived on tree bark soup during the great cultural revolution. His party came out on top when the great cultural revolution ended.

    I thought he was exaggerating the horrors of slavery in Tibet to justify the Chinese take over of Tibet.

    Propaganda is always a mix of truth and fiction.

    That said, a ruling caste of men without families naturally leads to its expected abuses, even if you call them monks.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  163. @Jeff J. Brown
    Seriously, Max, your racism is over the top.

    I know Brits who talk about the Irish the way you talk about the Chinese. So, I guess that makes me a monkey too:

    http://chinarising.puntopress.com/2015/10/01/slavs-and-the-yellow-peril-are-niggers-brutes-and-beasts-in-the-eyes-of-western-empire-the-saker-44-days-radio-sinoland-2015-10-1/

    Jeff J. Brown in China

    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, but do you seriously deny the fact that the mindset of most Mainland Chinese people is bordering on sociopathic in nature? I’ve been all over the world just like you have, and I unfortunately lived in China for over a decade, and I have never, ever encountered any society in which pathological levels of inconsideration, boorishness, and selfishness are so pervasive.

    You’re right about the advantages of the Chinese political and economic systems when it comes to large-scale projects. It’s superior to the US’s broken system in which large companies and other wealthy groups continuously use the government as a tool to enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else — because at this point, almost every developed nation’s political system is superior to that of the US. Is it really that surprising, though, that the Chinese system along with lots of cheap labor is successful at doing what every other developed nation has already managed to do, albeit on a larger scale? I mean, construction workers can do a large portion of the building of bridges, buildings, and subway systems if you clearly tell them how to do it and make sure their tasks are small and simple enough for them to comprehend. These things are not that difficult if all the relevant ideas have already been thought up by others and you’ve got a limitless supply of workers who will work for low wages. Have you ever taught in a Mainland Chinese school? Have you learned Mandarin and sat down and tried to have intelligent, nuanced conversations with Mainland Chinese people? I’ve done these things in China and in many other countries, and I have tried to look for the good in Chinese people and to look for social differences that could create the illusion of impaired critical thinking ability, but I just can’t avoid coming to the conclusion that Chinese people genuinely are missing something important when it comes to both empathy and critical thinking.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    because at this point, almost every developed nation’s political system is superior to that of the US
     
    I would have agreed if you referred specifically to infrastructure where even third world countries can do better, but its very dubious otherwise - the usual example of Europe, for example. At this point, it should be obvious that European government systems have led to an almost unbelievably broken wage structure and stagnation - and this is in spite of basically riding on American coattails for defense spending. Minus Germany, the outlook for Europe is pretty bleak. To pick one example at random, Spanish unemployment for the youth reached 50% recently. A brief spurt of Finnish innovation in Nokia proceeded to self-destruct in a total level thanks to social justice parasites, almost immediately after they had any success.

    How would anyone argue that a political system of such enormous long-term dysfunction to be superior to the American one, which seems to be at least capable of fixing itself through an appropriate set of miracles.

    , @Jeff J. Brown
    It took me many years to figure out Chinese behavior versus the West, but here it is in a nutshell:

    Westerners are territorial individuals, who act lineally, wanting to go directly from point A to point B, and get out of my way, thank you.

    Chinese are social communitarians who act elliptically and holistically, using the path of least resistance, let's both get out if each other's way, and there's no time to say "thank you".
    , @denk

    Conor Fields

    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, [sic]

     

    Some wit once observed,

    Paradoxically,

    'Its those who speak with measured voice, follow exquisite 'social etiquettes',.......... polite to a fault,
    its these 'gentlemen' who are often capable of doing the worst kind of evil '

    [The original is more eloquent but you get the drift]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Another case study of EVIL most foul...

    From a letter to general Michael Short...

    I now ask you, General:

    - Was it your son whose bombs hit a bridge in central Serbia crowded with traffic and pedestrians on a Sunday afternoon, where 17 people were wounded and nine people died, including "a priest with his head blasted away?" (Reuters, 30 May).

    Or was it your son who, four minutes after the initial attack, hit the bridge again just as help arrived for the surviving victims?


    - Was it your son whose bombs decapitated a Serbian child? "We found the head of a child in a garden and many limbs in the mud. But you don't want to report that.

    CNN filmed the bodies, but they don't show them on television" (The Independent, 29 April).

    - Was it your son whose bombs dismembered Serbian children making it almost impossible to match the children's torsos with their arms and legs, although several were recognized by their sneakers? (The Guardian, 18 May).

    - Was it your son whose bombs buried people alive under tons of rubble from destroyed apartment buildings?

    - Was it your son whose bombs hit the convoy of ethnic Albanians reducing the victims to ashes, and then have your NATO pimp spokesperson, Jamie Shea, have the gall to deny that NATO pilots, possibly your son, were responsible for this atrocity by blaming it on the Serbs?
    [Robber crying robbery, standard anglo M.O.]

    - Was it your son who bombed hospitals, schools, orphanages, cemeteries, churches, 14th century monasteries on the World Heritage list, in a barbaric act to destroy Serbian culture, society and religion?

    ...............................
    http://bit.ly/2yo8fjE

    Paradox indeed,
    Michael Short looks like the kind of guy who wouldnt jump queues at home
    and yet.......

    Is there a Mr. Hyde lurking beneath the veneer of Dr Jekyll , inside the anglo psyche ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  164. Do an experiment. Go to a Chinese restaurant operated by Chinese and observe the efficiency. Now go to any other type of restaurant and observe. Compare them. The answer to the question raised by the title is no. It’s a matter of the kind of people involved.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  165. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Another Realist
    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. The reality is both China and India are over populated countries mired in their ancient cultures that encourage endemic corruption. It's been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    Indians are further hobbled by their propensity for violence.

    Would modern infrastructure drag a people out of their ancient cultures and send them into the modern age? The late Samuel Huntington discussed this fine point in his excellent book Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. Huntington pointed out that countries can be modernized without being westernized. Singapore and Japan for instance, are both modernized, but Singapore is a lot more westernized than Japan. Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    By nature the Japanese are very much like the English, law abiding, civic minded, polite. The Chinese are more like Italians, breaking the law when they can get away with it, every man for himself, dog eat dog, rude and loud. Since 70% of Singapore's inhabitants are Chinese, Lee Kuan Yew set out to rid the Chinese of their bad cultural norms by adopting English as the lingua franca and primary language of instruction. He then set up a corruption free government by first paying his cabinet members high salaries to prevent them from being enticed by graft, made every government employee wear a name tag and encourage all citizens to report any government employee that solicits bribe in any way. By such draconian measures he was able to rid the Chinese in Singapore of their propensity for corruption.

    China seeks to emulate Singapore without adopting the two most salient features instituted by Lee Kuan Yew - adoption of English as a primary language of instruction, and paying the cabinet members high enough salaries to prevent them from succumbing to bribes. The president of China makes only US$26,000 a year, that is a joke compared to cabinet members of Singapore who each make US$700,000 a year. That's why China will not be the next Singapore, it will instead become another Malaysia or Russia, mired in corruption and unable to escape the middle income trap. As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption. Corruption will eventually bring down the CPC and China, as it has brought down every single Chinese dynasty throughout its history. Unchecked power always corrupts.

    India is hopeless. It won't even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.

    >”India is hopeless. It won’t even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.<''

    How do you know that before even being there? They have a billion plus people to govern with money and (on) land almost 1/4 the size of U.S. They are trying and are getting better at it every decade. Also you say they think highly of themselves on account of their diaspora. There are more indians who think highly of the west than they think of their own country. Thinking that 'we are not dumb' is not the same as 'we are smarter than every body else'. You are thinking that indians are thinking the later.

    Let me give you an example. A few weeks back this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_discoveries

    was posted as a response to somebody saying indians didnt invent anything. Now i posted that with the meaning that indians invented something only as a response to people thinking that they didnt. But if i say stuff like that or other indians say stuff like indians have good achievements in the west, it was a 'response' to comments like indians are 'incapable'. That is not the same as thinking highly of themselves. There is a difference. But if you still want to believe it, its your call. That said there are more indians in india and even in the west who think highly of the west than they think of their own country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I'm dubious of India's prospects due to the high fragmentation of the society, but I wish them well and if they can indeed successfully find a model to efficiently work with the highly disconnected segments of their population, it would be something to learn from.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  166. Che Guava says:
    @Joe Wong

    Aiso stealing much tech, much on China’s high-speda rail is stolen from Japan, they put out tenders, but the only objective is theft.
     
    It seems the Japanese not only denying their war crimes they are also copying the bad habit of the American by claiming credit where credit is not due.

    IIRC, joe wong is a character in a Japanese-made video game. 格闘 (fighting) genre, I am still liking them.

    It may having some other connection for you.

    That the PRC govt. offers tenders on express rail, does not accepting any, then sucks up the tech., it is the simple fact.

    Their high-speed trains are looking like almost direct copies of Japanese designs.

    Your post was hostile, please refuting me in a polite manner, if you can.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I'm curious if you think that finite resources specifically to cheap energy will be exhausted in say, within the next generation - you said that fracking is not sustainable, but why? Despite peak oil concerns, it seems to have been put off for quite some time.
    , @Joe Wong
    It seems you do not know about the Japanese. Japanese is a copycat, a thief and a pirate who have been stealing from China since their existence and from the West in the last few hundreds of years. Japanese steals from others and is painfully aware the harmful effect on the victim so they never give away anything to anybody, even if they agree to transfer technology at extortion price, they will transfer built-in flawed system to make sure the buyer cannot never threaten them.

    Japanese Shinkansen is a stolen technology from France. Chinese HSR is based on Siemens'. Chinese HSR patterns has surpassed the Japanese, and the Japanese will sue Chinese if Chinese uses their technology in tendering. Chinese has been winning HSR contracts around the world by beating Japanese expensive and inferior Shinkansen technology. Japanese simply does not have Chinese scale to improve their technology and the cost beyond the limits they reached.

    When Deng embarked on modernizing China's economy, Chinese approached Japanese first for assistance, but the Japanese refused in an attempt to block Chinese modernization just like they did during the first Sino-Japanese war to cripple first Chinese attempt to modernize China. It was the overseas Chinese bootstrapped China's modernization miracle and followed by the German.

    You should know Japanese is called unrepentant war criminal for a reason, while you should get the facts straight before trolling American and Japanese cold war rhetoric casually like matter of fact.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  167. Miro23 says:
    @1RW
    You forgot
    0) Being fought to a standstill by poorly equipped but highly motivated Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.

    You forgot
    0) Being fought to a standstill by poorly equipped but highly motivated Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.

    The Chinese were engaged in Korea, and they also fought the brief Sino-Vietnamese war in 1979, but in general the Chinese military have kept out of international conflicts while the US had the very costly Vietnam and even more costly $ Trillion Middle East wars.

    The Chinese seem to be following Trump’s maxim of investing in infrastructure rather than pointless foreign wars, and also, they don’t have AIPAC on their back telling them that Israel is China’s best friend, and directing Chinese $ Billions at the country, with Chinese armies ordered to destroy the Middle East.

    Read More
    • Replies: @1RW
    You're missing the point - the first US military failure, I call it a failure because the US failed to dominate the outcome - was the Korean war
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  168. @jbwilson24
    You just disqualified yourself from invoking machine learning. You obviously have no idea how many humans it takes to keep machine learning applications running.

    The great irony is that you Asia pumpers seem to have forgotten a lot of the lessons that have already been learned. Top-down command and control economies don't work, for a variety of reasons. Adding 'machine learning' and other forms of decision making won't change that. The failure of cybernetics and operations research when applied to urban systems is but one example of a legacy that Asians seem spectacularly poor at discovering.

    The role which I’m envisioning for machine learning is not specifically in its “decision-making” ability but rather in its ability to enable the creation of machines that acts as monitoring agents which replace roles previously occupied by humans(such human agents served as an impediment to centralization in the past). For one example, machine learning algorithms that have enabled systems to read handwriting have reduced the need for human tellers to act in such a role, bypassing the human component and improving recording accuracy in for example, cashing a check.

    One of the major challenges of centralization in the past was that information becomes essentially more corrupted at every level of transmission, akin to the game of telephone. But if information integrity is preserved, better decisions can be made top-down.

    Its hard to argue, at any rate, that history doesn’t show ever-increasing centralization of society along with the march of technology. The Soviet Cheka would dream to have as much information as, for example, Google(which is not even a government).

    The only disruption to this would be if, as Che said, that cheap energy ceases to be or alternatively if machine transmission of data ultimately have excessive negative externalities(like nuclear power plants as Che implied do); I don’t believe either will happen anytime soon.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  169. Joe Wong says:
    @Quartermaster
    Exactly correct. China's economy is a bubble and they have been spending money like a drunken sailor on things that simply don't make sense (empty cities are just one example). In technology, China has been a parasite, stealing from anyone they can. The Soviet Union was the same way. China's advance will come to a crashing halt for the same reason the Soviet's advance did.

    With the elevation of Xi to a position of Second Great Helmsman, after Mao's Great Helmsman, there will be a crackdown, and if the FedGov comes to its senses, will realize we have educated, and trained our enemies, as well as equipped them. The US relationship with Red China makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    If Duterte wants to win the war on drugs he must microchip all the Westerners in the Philippines, those fat pink skin pigs are harmful to the Philippines by running drugs as CIA subversion operatives and parasites sucking the Filipino’s blood.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Dat's raciss.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  170. @Joe Wong
    You should know the belief that only the White can invent and only the White can succeed is a religious myth.

    It is not because of that. But basically you are very close. So far no Chinese geniuses ever.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Greece was the center of Western art and culture - its enduring philosophy and ideas remain with us to this day. In a steady state universe, then Athens should be a prime creator of media as opposed to say, Hollywood. Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.
    , @Astuteobservor II
    damn, I never thought the russian hate for china runs that deep :) are you typical of russians?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  171. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Wong
    Exposing lies told about China, correcting facts distorted about China, and clearing smear painted on China is not an attack on the White. Retelling the ugly part of the history the West neither discussed nor crictized is not an attack on the civilization your ancestors created.

    You are rightly correcting the mistakes told about your country. But then you turn around and do the exact same thing about india what some people here are doing about china !!

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    and you should complain ?

    India hasnt seen an anti-Chinese alliance that it doesnt like.
    Bharat relish its role as uncle sham's new 'deputy' in Asia against China,
    In reality, its just a whitey's bitch.

    http://www.atimes.com/france-ready-join-indias-anti-china-front/
    , @DB Cooper
    India actually get the reverse treatment of what the West treat China. India is viewed by all of its smaller neighbors as a bully, and rightly so. And India is a land grabbing expansionist hampered only by its lack of hard power that is unable to project beyond its immediate neighbors. The Western media never reported on this.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  172. @Jey
    Then how do you explain France does much worse than the UK in the so called elite scientific output, although they have roughly the same population? I'd venture whoever has the bigger say due to its legacy and language advantage has the bigger influence on this kind of indeces, just look at the world university rankings by some famous media every year; It's a guarantee that UK/US universities will take up almost all seats in the top 20 (incidentally the young generation of scientists in the top US universities are mostly Asians, like the overrepresented Jews in the last century, many of whom became Nobel prize winners in their later life). I am not suggesting all these kinds of indeces/rankings are fakenews, but they are not as objective as you may think it is. That's why China would ditch international ratings by some credit agencies to sell its sovereign bonds, establish AIIB, SCO, OBOR, etc in hope of setting the standards by herself.

    So far the US is still a leading nation in science and technology but the US is an exception, because as a superpower it can attract the brightest from all over the world. Europe is another story. Seems to me that the EU is becoming more and more irrelevant in the new industries (internet, ecommerce, AI, semiconductors, etc) and in global market. The UK has London as a financial hub to remind us its relevancy; France and Italy sell overpriced luxury goods to make some people feel good about themselves; Germany produces some interesting mechanic products but if Japan or even Korea could have the same single EU market as Germany does, I don't think German goods would be competitive enough to compete against, say, Japanese cars, robots, cameras, korean TVs, or Taiwanese chips.

    France and Italy sell overpriced luxury goods to make some people feel good about themselves; Germany produces some interesting mechanic products but if Japan or even Korea could have the same single EU market as Germany does, I don’t think German goods would be competitive enough to compete against, say, Japanese cars, robots, cameras, korean TVs, or Taiwanese chips.

    Almost all true but per France. Unlike UK or Germany France DOES have indigenous and stellar aerospace industry (Rafale, Mirage, Dassault in general) and is a crucial contributor to Airbus , she also has a respectable space program and capability. So between some Nobel Prize laureate in theoretical physics, granted its importance, and a viable aerospace industry–the choice is kinda obvious. Agree per German cars–over-engineered, grossly over-priced reputational items in same vein as iPhone, do the same thing as others but for twice or thrice the price. Korea, for all its potential, I doubt will be able to produce world-class jet-engine, as an example. Germans, however, produce world class gas-turbines and diesel which makes Chinese-made analogues, well… it makes them Chinese-made. Per ratings, agree 100%–most of those are lame and faux-scientific creations of US “economic” schools and describe absolutely nothing of real substance and are rigged only for promotion of US products and influence. The same thing as Jane’s, once, a very long-long time ago–a respected military reference guide, which today is nothing more than advertisement booklet for US (and UK) MIC. Semiconductors are a separate topic.

    ecommerce

    It is a money-generating service. Important but merely a derivative of other, way more important, things. Again, between ecommerse and viable aerospace industry the choice is obvious.

    P.S. France produces completely on her own nuclear attack and strategic missile submarine fleet with, unlike in Royal Navy, actual French designed and produced SLBMs. A no small feat, if you ask me.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  173. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Conor Fields
    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, but do you seriously deny the fact that the mindset of most Mainland Chinese people is bordering on sociopathic in nature? I've been all over the world just like you have, and I unfortunately lived in China for over a decade, and I have never, ever encountered any society in which pathological levels of inconsideration, boorishness, and selfishness are so pervasive.

    You're right about the advantages of the Chinese political and economic systems when it comes to large-scale projects. It's superior to the US's broken system in which large companies and other wealthy groups continuously use the government as a tool to enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else -- because at this point, almost every developed nation's political system is superior to that of the US. Is it really that surprising, though, that the Chinese system along with lots of cheap labor is successful at doing what every other developed nation has already managed to do, albeit on a larger scale? I mean, construction workers can do a large portion of the building of bridges, buildings, and subway systems if you clearly tell them how to do it and make sure their tasks are small and simple enough for them to comprehend. These things are not that difficult if all the relevant ideas have already been thought up by others and you've got a limitless supply of workers who will work for low wages. Have you ever taught in a Mainland Chinese school? Have you learned Mandarin and sat down and tried to have intelligent, nuanced conversations with Mainland Chinese people? I've done these things in China and in many other countries, and I have tried to look for the good in Chinese people and to look for social differences that could create the illusion of impaired critical thinking ability, but I just can't avoid coming to the conclusion that Chinese people genuinely are missing something important when it comes to both empathy and critical thinking.

    because at this point, almost every developed nation’s political system is superior to that of the US

    I would have agreed if you referred specifically to infrastructure where even third world countries can do better, but its very dubious otherwise – the usual example of Europe, for example. At this point, it should be obvious that European government systems have led to an almost unbelievably broken wage structure and stagnation – and this is in spite of basically riding on American coattails for defense spending. Minus Germany, the outlook for Europe is pretty bleak. To pick one example at random, Spanish unemployment for the youth reached 50% recently. A brief spurt of Finnish innovation in Nokia proceeded to self-destruct in a total level thanks to social justice parasites, almost immediately after they had any success.

    How would anyone argue that a political system of such enormous long-term dysfunction to be superior to the American one, which seems to be at least capable of fixing itself through an appropriate set of miracles.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  174. @Che Guava
    IIRC, joe wong is a character in a Japanese-made video game. 格闘 (fighting) genre, I am still liking them.

    It may having some other connection for you.

    That the PRC govt. offers tenders on express rail, does not accepting any, then sucks up the tech., it is the simple fact.

    Their high-speed trains are looking like almost direct copies of Japanese designs.

    Your post was hostile, please refuting me in a polite manner, if you can.

    I’m curious if you think that finite resources specifically to cheap energy will be exhausted in say, within the next generation – you said that fracking is not sustainable, but why? Despite peak oil concerns, it seems to have been put off for quite some time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
    There is a body of thought with regards to abiotic oil. The west uses petrodollars and depends on oil being scarce.

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.environment/x0udY6I5a38

    between 1951-2001, thousands of articles and many books and monographs were published mainly in the mainstream Russian scientific journals proving abiotic petroleum origins - all ignored by western governments and media. For example, leading expert V. A. Krayushkin has alone published more than two hundred fifty articles on modern petroleum geology, and several books.

    Russian mineralogists, oil explorers and each successive government since the dark days of the former Soviet Union have been unalterably upbeat that they’ve ousted the ‘peak oil, fossil fuels’ nonsense. And who are we to argue - they’ve got the money in the bank to prove it.

    As a result Russia is firmly ensconced as the world’s second-largest oil exporter and is becoming so preeminent in the field of oil and gas exploration and innovation that the nation is set to usurp the U.S. not as a military force, but as the world’s energy superpower for the 21st century

    Oil—Our Greatest Natural Renewable Energy Source

    Exploiting their cutting-edge technology Russia has successfully discovered numerous petroleum fields, a number of which produce either partly or entirely from a crystalline basement and which appears distinctly self-replenishing
    , @Vidi
    You need to look further than merely the next generation.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  175. @Joe Wong
    If Duterte wants to win the war on drugs he must microchip all the Westerners in the Philippines, those fat pink skin pigs are harmful to the Philippines by running drugs as CIA subversion operatives and parasites sucking the Filipino's blood.

    Dat’s raciss.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  176. @Sergey Krieger
    It is not because of that. But basically you are very close. So far no Chinese geniuses ever.

    Greece was the center of Western art and culture – its enduring philosophy and ideas remain with us to this day. In a steady state universe, then Athens should be a prime creator of media as opposed to say, Hollywood. Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.
     
    And we would be subjected to "My Big Fat Greek Wedding-XXVIII" movie-epic;-)
    , @Sergey Krieger
    Well, Wong was asking for this with him bringing so called white people thing. Regarding your extrapolations.both the West and China have been around for a long time. China is not exactly new kid on the block. Hence we already have some statistics and history and the West as Greece you pointed and later reincarnation showed clear trend in producing outstanding people who produced outstanding results. China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious peope have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs. It cannot be faked. Once China becomes new Greece of the old then we can talk. For now it is pure speculative extrapolations not backed by anything.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  177. @Daniel Chieh
    Greece was the center of Western art and culture - its enduring philosophy and ideas remain with us to this day. In a steady state universe, then Athens should be a prime creator of media as opposed to say, Hollywood. Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.

    Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.

    And we would be subjected to “My Big Fat Greek Wedding-XXVIII” movie-epic;-)

    Read More
    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    One was more than enough, lol.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  178. 1RW says:
    @Miro23

    You forgot
    0) Being fought to a standstill by poorly equipped but highly motivated Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.
     
    The Chinese were engaged in Korea, and they also fought the brief Sino-Vietnamese war in 1979, but in general the Chinese military have kept out of international conflicts while the US had the very costly Vietnam and even more costly $ Trillion Middle East wars.

    The Chinese seem to be following Trump's maxim of investing in infrastructure rather than pointless foreign wars, and also, they don't have AIPAC on their back telling them that Israel is China's best friend, and directing Chinese $ Billions at the country, with Chinese armies ordered to destroy the Middle East.

    You’re missing the point – the first US military failure, I call it a failure because the US failed to dominate the outcome – was the Korean war

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  179. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Seamus Padraig
    Every word you say here is true. Today's situation between China and the US is very much like that between Germany and Britain circa 1900: China is the rising power, while the US has clearly peaked and is now in decline. Last time, the parasites were able to destroy Germany through war; but these days there are ICBMs. What are they going to do now?

    As far as China's economic system is concerned, I would categorize it as a variant of National Socialism; or, if you prefer, a kind of Communism with a robust, for-profit export sector (the USSR never had that).

    I agree. National Socialism. It is a successful model, but our ((friends)) have so hypnotized populations, that one cannot even rationally look at it, speak of it, or analyze it, without being labeled an anti-semite.

    The Chinese have no such guilt. A Jew labeling Chinese as anti-semites, would be laughed out of the room. And, as you say, Chinese have ICBM’s.

    A good parasite will tell the host what to think, what to eat, where to walk. A very effective parasite will even get the host to think said parasite is its child, to be protected at all costs.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  180. @Another Realist
    China is neither communist nor socialist. Socialism with Chinese characteristics is a euphemism for Crony Capitalism, which is the system China has. Corruption is endemic in all levels of the bureaucracy.

    Lenora Chu's book Little Soldiers gives an eye opening account of the pervasive corruption in China even in its much vaunted education system. Parents constantly have to bribe teachers with expensive gifts like luxury goods. The teachers themselves have to bribe administrators to get their promotions. In the countryside, at least 50% of kids drop out at the end of middle school, and these dropouts need jobs. The frenzy construction in China is the government's way of providing jobs to these dropouts and other adult migrant workers, as a way to keep peace, it has nothing to do with actual demand.

    Corrupt government officials seize the land from the farmers, sell it at a discount to a well connected developer who obtains government loans on the cheap after bribing the bankers, the developer provides jobs to the construction workers and keeps the government happy, while pocketing a large chunk of the loans and sending it to his offshore bank accounts in the Caribbean or Singapore, which enable him to buy foreign real estate and move his family out of China, as well as himself when the time comes.

    The vast majority of mainland Chinese who emigrated to the US in the past decade are corrupt government officials and their equally corrupt cronies in the private sector. The US would never have developed if the titans of our industries, from Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt to Gates, Bezos, Jobs etc. did the same, by stashing away their wealth in Europe and moving to Europe en masse after getting rich in America. Trillions of dirty money have left China's shores in the past 2 decades. Endemic corruption ensures China will never be able to get past the middle income trap, just like other corrupt crony capitalist countries like Malaysia, Russia, Brazil.

    The US would never have developed if the titans of our industries, from Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt to Gates, Bezos, Jobs etc. did the same, by stashing away their wealth in Europe and moving to Europe en masse after getting rich in America.

    Actually, something of the sort did happen and it’s interesting that you should mention it. Maybe the dudes you listed aren’t guilty of that, but 19th century USA suffered its share of that sort of thing.

    To the corporate liberal, dishonest politicians and corruption in city, state, and federal governments were both ineficient and expensive. The reckless exploitation of natural resources was an inefficient use of a limited supply of raw materials. A dissatisfied labor force that was underpaid, harshly worked, and driven to strikes and to radical political action because its basic needs were disregarded meant extra production costs and—perhaps more important—costs that could not be calculated in advance. American basic industry could no longer tolerate the practices of the nineteenth-century type of robber barons who would hastily build a business, inflate stock beyond the earning capacity of the enterprise, bilk hapless investors, and flee with the proceeds before they themselves were caught in the falling wreckage.

    - DAVID EAKINS, Policy-Planning for the Establishment, A New history of Leviathan, Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State , Edited by Ronald D. Radosh and Murray N. Rothbard, 1972, p 190

    https://mises.org/system/tdf/A%20New%20History%20of%20Leviathan_2.pdf?file=1&type=document

    I think there’s a lesson there.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  181. Joe Wong says:
    @Che Guava
    IIRC, joe wong is a character in a Japanese-made video game. 格闘 (fighting) genre, I am still liking them.

    It may having some other connection for you.

    That the PRC govt. offers tenders on express rail, does not accepting any, then sucks up the tech., it is the simple fact.

    Their high-speed trains are looking like almost direct copies of Japanese designs.

    Your post was hostile, please refuting me in a polite manner, if you can.

    It seems you do not know about the Japanese. Japanese is a copycat, a thief and a pirate who have been stealing from China since their existence and from the West in the last few hundreds of years. Japanese steals from others and is painfully aware the harmful effect on the victim so they never give away anything to anybody, even if they agree to transfer technology at extortion price, they will transfer built-in flawed system to make sure the buyer cannot never threaten them.

    Japanese Shinkansen is a stolen technology from France. Chinese HSR is based on Siemens’. Chinese HSR patterns has surpassed the Japanese, and the Japanese will sue Chinese if Chinese uses their technology in tendering. Chinese has been winning HSR contracts around the world by beating Japanese expensive and inferior Shinkansen technology. Japanese simply does not have Chinese scale to improve their technology and the cost beyond the limits they reached.

    When Deng embarked on modernizing China’s economy, Chinese approached Japanese first for assistance, but the Japanese refused in an attempt to block Chinese modernization just like they did during the first Sino-Japanese war to cripple first Chinese attempt to modernize China. It was the overseas Chinese bootstrapped China’s modernization miracle and followed by the German.

    You should know Japanese is called unrepentant war criminal for a reason, while you should get the facts straight before trolling American and Japanese cold war rhetoric casually like matter of fact.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The mutual Sino-Nipponese bashing is very tiring.

    Three hundred plus years of this is quite a lot.

    , @Che Guava
    Sorry, Joe,

    You are so wrong, the 新幹線 (bullet train) between Tokyo and Osaka was the world's first true high-speed line, if we are to defining 'high speed' as much faster than a conventional express.

    I can't be bothered to answering your many incorrect assertions.

    You are having very delicate feelings and misinterpreting me.

    Two of my closest friends are chinese, one, an older lady, from Taiwan, who was getting automatic citizenship because her father was in the Imperial Army, the other, a younger man, orphan, from the inner mainland PRC (doing the more boring sort of coding for WWW sites, he is saying it is boring himself).

    All I was saying in my comments (one originally, two after server breakdown) were simple facts, indusputable.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  182. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I'm curious if you think that finite resources specifically to cheap energy will be exhausted in say, within the next generation - you said that fracking is not sustainable, but why? Despite peak oil concerns, it seems to have been put off for quite some time.

    There is a body of thought with regards to abiotic oil. The west uses petrodollars and depends on oil being scarce.

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.environment/x0udY6I5a38

    between 1951-2001, thousands of articles and many books and monographs were published mainly in the mainstream Russian scientific journals proving abiotic petroleum origins – all ignored by western governments and media. For example, leading expert V. A. Krayushkin has alone published more than two hundred fifty articles on modern petroleum geology, and several books.

    Russian mineralogists, oil explorers and each successive government since the dark days of the former Soviet Union have been unalterably upbeat that they’ve ousted the ‘peak oil, fossil fuels’ nonsense. And who are we to argue – they’ve got the money in the bank to prove it.

    As a result Russia is firmly ensconced as the world’s second-largest oil exporter and is becoming so preeminent in the field of oil and gas exploration and innovation that the nation is set to usurp the U.S. not as a military force, but as the world’s energy superpower for the 21st century

    Oil—Our Greatest Natural Renewable Energy Source

    Exploiting their cutting-edge technology Russia has successfully discovered numerous petroleum fields, a number of which produce either partly or entirely from a crystalline basement and which appears distinctly self-replenishing

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  183. @Anonymous
    >''India is hopeless. It won’t even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.<''

    How do you know that before even being there? They have a billion plus people to govern with money and (on) land almost 1/4 the size of U.S. They are trying and are getting better at it every decade. Also you say they think highly of themselves on account of their diaspora. There are more indians who think highly of the west than they think of their own country. Thinking that 'we are not dumb' is not the same as 'we are smarter than every body else'. You are thinking that indians are thinking the later.

    Let me give you an example. A few weeks back this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_discoveries

    was posted as a response to somebody saying indians didnt invent anything. Now i posted that with the meaning that indians invented something only as a response to people thinking that they didnt. But if i say stuff like that or other indians say stuff like indians have good achievements in the west, it was a 'response' to comments like indians are 'incapable'. That is not the same as thinking highly of themselves. There is a difference. But if you still want to believe it, its your call. That said there are more indians in india and even in the west who think highly of the west than they think of their own country.

    I’m dubious of India’s prospects due to the high fragmentation of the society, but I wish them well and if they can indeed successfully find a model to efficiently work with the highly disconnected segments of their population, it would be something to learn from.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  184. @Joe Wong
    It seems you do not know about the Japanese. Japanese is a copycat, a thief and a pirate who have been stealing from China since their existence and from the West in the last few hundreds of years. Japanese steals from others and is painfully aware the harmful effect on the victim so they never give away anything to anybody, even if they agree to transfer technology at extortion price, they will transfer built-in flawed system to make sure the buyer cannot never threaten them.

    Japanese Shinkansen is a stolen technology from France. Chinese HSR is based on Siemens'. Chinese HSR patterns has surpassed the Japanese, and the Japanese will sue Chinese if Chinese uses their technology in tendering. Chinese has been winning HSR contracts around the world by beating Japanese expensive and inferior Shinkansen technology. Japanese simply does not have Chinese scale to improve their technology and the cost beyond the limits they reached.

    When Deng embarked on modernizing China's economy, Chinese approached Japanese first for assistance, but the Japanese refused in an attempt to block Chinese modernization just like they did during the first Sino-Japanese war to cripple first Chinese attempt to modernize China. It was the overseas Chinese bootstrapped China's modernization miracle and followed by the German.

    You should know Japanese is called unrepentant war criminal for a reason, while you should get the facts straight before trolling American and Japanese cold war rhetoric casually like matter of fact.

    The mutual Sino-Nipponese bashing is very tiring.

    Three hundred plus years of this is quite a lot.

    Read More
    • Agree: Talha
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  185. @Daniel Chieh
    Greece was the center of Western art and culture - its enduring philosophy and ideas remain with us to this day. In a steady state universe, then Athens should be a prime creator of media as opposed to say, Hollywood. Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.

    Well, Wong was asking for this with him bringing so called white people thing. Regarding your extrapolations.both the West and China have been around for a long time. China is not exactly new kid on the block. Hence we already have some statistics and history and the West as Greece you pointed and later reincarnation showed clear trend in producing outstanding people who produced outstanding results. China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious peope have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs. It cannot be faked. Once China becomes new Greece of the old then we can talk. For now it is pure speculative extrapolations not backed by anything.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    J. Wong is mostly a troll and isn't worth too much time.

    Hence we already have some statistics and history and the West as Greece you pointed and later reincarnation showed clear trend in producing outstanding people who produced outstanding results
     
    But hardly the same people, and it should be noted, hardly the same sensibility. It can be an improvement: I think that the Renaissance conception of Roman society was better than actual Roman society at least in terms of individualism, as the same conceptions of dignitas and gravitas were neglected.

    I also really do not think that modern China has the same culture as the China of yore, something of both promise and sadness to me, or even in many ways the same people - when millions of individuals die, it causes genuine population changes. At any rate - insofar as fundamental discoveries, I do believe that the low hanging fruit of that has already been exploited. But when it comes to other technologies, especially in application, China actually has been doing pretty well to name three areas: CRISPR research, quantum communication, and 3d printing.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  186. @Andrei Martyanov

    Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.
     
    And we would be subjected to "My Big Fat Greek Wedding-XXVIII" movie-epic;-)

    One was more than enough, lol.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  187. @Sergey Krieger
    It is not because of that. But basically you are very close. So far no Chinese geniuses ever.

    damn, I never thought the russian hate for china runs that deep :) are you typical of russians?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    I am actually Sinophile. Just stating obvious facts at least as I perceive them.
    , @Anonymous
    I don think he is. But if he is, then it raises a larger point....iI guess it could be said that we live an era where people of every country in the world hate people of every other country in the world.

    I cant think of people any two countries liking each other. Maybe one or two countries exist like that, but that is out of 200 plus countries in the entire world. Every country hates every other country.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  188. @Astuteobservor II
    damn, I never thought the russian hate for china runs that deep :) are you typical of russians?

    I am actually Sinophile. Just stating obvious facts at least as I perceive them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious people have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs.
     
    all of this, all the major breakthroughs happened before the modern china though :) the last dynasty was all about keeping the native population in control, nothing else mattered. it was a matter of survival for the last dynasty. and old china has some ground breaking inventions :)

    china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years :) this is what all the videos in the article was all about. the point of the article was about how much china has achieved in such a short time and if the trend continues, it will leave the west in the dust.

    it's economy is already bigger than usa by about 15%. think about that for a few. numbers speaks volumes. you can't spin that, well you could bring up the per capita spin :)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  189. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    damn, I never thought the russian hate for china runs that deep :) are you typical of russians?

    I don think he is. But if he is, then it raises a larger point….iI guess it could be said that we live an era where people of every country in the world hate people of every other country in the world.

    I cant think of people any two countries liking each other. Maybe one or two countries exist like that, but that is out of 200 plus countries in the entire world. Every country hates every other country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    I hate no country.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  190. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Sergey’s recent comment didnt appear on my screen when i started typing the above. But i think the point still applies.

    I mean people of various countries not govts :) People instinctively hate other who dont share their values, religions, language, ehtnicity, region etc.

    For example take a random african country and a random middle eastern country. Even if govts of those two countries dont have issues, there will me more likely than not some hatred for each other among the people of those two countries. Same with middle east- indians, or some random european country and the U.S etc

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  191. @Anonymous
    I don think he is. But if he is, then it raises a larger point....iI guess it could be said that we live an era where people of every country in the world hate people of every other country in the world.

    I cant think of people any two countries liking each other. Maybe one or two countries exist like that, but that is out of 200 plus countries in the entire world. Every country hates every other country.

    I hate no country.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  192. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper
    "You should go ahead and ask them [China’s minorities ] in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag. "

    The question has been asked and they are very happy. Studies done by Western sociologist has found out that China's minorities, and that include the Tibetans and the Uighurs are more nationalistic Chinese than there Han counterparts. This notion that Tibetans and Uighurs are restless living under oppression is just another nonsense propagated by the West. But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.

    Listen to this podcast:

    http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2013/10/bia_20131016.mp3

    I never tried to imply that I think the Tibetans and Uighurs are oppressed, just that it’s better to take it straight from the horses mouth. Those studies done by ‘Western sources’ were done in collaboration with Chinese sources. I’m familiar enough with how Chinese compile data to be at least a little skeptical. But thanks, I’ll take it with a grain of salt. I don’t have the time or energy to look into the veracity of those claims. Although I will admit that there could be quite a bit of truth to it.

    On the whole, I’m pretty optimistic about China’s future and their future role in the world. Last time I was there 5 years ago I was very impressed with how much of their cities and certain aspects of their culture seemed to already be at a first world level, despite having such a low gdp per capita. I’ve also noticed a similar pattern in Southeast Asian countries, especially parts of Thailand, but also in Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia as well. I’m also not as sour on India’s prospects as some other people are, but that will probably take quite a bit longer. In India’s case, it doesn’t help that many Western educated Indians don’t go back to their home country in an attempt to help speed up development there.

    However, China’s case is especially interesting due to the sheer speed and ease with which they pick up on Western technology and (positive) cultural aspects and mannerism, ect. It strikes me as though their economy has been, in a way, artificially depressed for a very long time. This is why I find it a tad annoying when I see progressives who are interested in China pretend that China’s recent success is due to the communist revolution and subsequent interventions. They like to paint China as a communist success story. Looking at Taiwan or South Korea, we already know that this isn’t the case. China’s success has taken off as soon as they began to embraced a similar style of capitalism (although, not the same) as their Asian neighbors.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    This is why I find it a tad annoying when I see progressives who are interested in China pretend that China’s recent success is due to the communist revolution and subsequent interventions. They like to paint China as a communist success story. Looking at Taiwan or South Korea, we already know that this isn’t the case. China’s success has taken off as soon as they began to embraced a similar style of capitalism (although, not the same) as their Asian neighbors.
     
    Well, if you get to point out Taiwan and South Korea as successes from which China copied, I get to point out the Soviet Union.

    Yes, the Soviets (mainly Russia) were very successful for quite a while; and Taiwan and South Korea will be lucky to last that long. China definitely borrowed from the SU.

    I think it's truer to say that China's combination of mostly socialism and a little capitalism is responsible for the country's rapid development.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  193. @Sergey Krieger
    I am actually Sinophile. Just stating obvious facts at least as I perceive them.

    China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious people have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs.

    all of this, all the major breakthroughs happened before the modern china though :) the last dynasty was all about keeping the native population in control, nothing else mattered. it was a matter of survival for the last dynasty. and old china has some ground breaking inventions :)

    china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years :) this is what all the videos in the article was all about. the point of the article was about how much china has achieved in such a short time and if the trend continues, it will leave the west in the dust.

    it’s economy is already bigger than usa by about 15%. think about that for a few. numbers speaks volumes. you can’t spin that, well you could bring up the per capita spin :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    What I am trying to say is that China rise was not self made. Firstly assisted by Soviet union and then by usa and combined West. Imagine no help from either and where China would have been. Some note. 1921 Soviet Russia was lying in ruins and within 20 years was producing technologies that were better than those of the West.china has been at this since 1950 and it is still buying weapons from Russia. It is 67 years...
    , @Avery
    {china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years}

    Poster [Sergey Krieger] is correct: China didn't do it on its own.

    If it weren't for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.

    In the case of all three American knowhow - such as semiconductor factories - were transferred wholesale, and whatever they produced was allowed to be, well, dumped, in the US.
    Japanese were notorious for not allowing any American manufactured goods into Japan, while they had open access to American markets.

    Japanese, Korean, Chinese are hard working, intelligent people. But with the very important start given them by American consumers and American taxpayers, they could not have come this far this fast.

    And US/West never regarded China as an enemy: USSR and now Russia are regarded as an impediment to Globalists' desire to subdue and run the world, so RF must be dismembered and rendered harmless. China minds its own business in its own neighborhood, and will not interfere with Globalist Neocons' "work" in Middle East or Europe. So it's allowed to profit from US consumer and grow and improve its industrial base.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  194. @Sergey Krieger
    Well, Wong was asking for this with him bringing so called white people thing. Regarding your extrapolations.both the West and China have been around for a long time. China is not exactly new kid on the block. Hence we already have some statistics and history and the West as Greece you pointed and later reincarnation showed clear trend in producing outstanding people who produced outstanding results. China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious peope have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs. It cannot be faked. Once China becomes new Greece of the old then we can talk. For now it is pure speculative extrapolations not backed by anything.

    J. Wong is mostly a troll and isn’t worth too much time.

    Hence we already have some statistics and history and the West as Greece you pointed and later reincarnation showed clear trend in producing outstanding people who produced outstanding results

    But hardly the same people, and it should be noted, hardly the same sensibility. It can be an improvement: I think that the Renaissance conception of Roman society was better than actual Roman society at least in terms of individualism, as the same conceptions of dignitas and gravitas were neglected.

    I also really do not think that modern China has the same culture as the China of yore, something of both promise and sadness to me, or even in many ways the same people – when millions of individuals die, it causes genuine population changes. At any rate – insofar as fundamental discoveries, I do believe that the low hanging fruit of that has already been exploited. But when it comes to other technologies, especially in application, China actually has been doing pretty well to name three areas: CRISPR research, quantum communication, and 3d printing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    Indeed sad. Now China essentially looks like Western country with many aspirations shared. It is one of the point I was making stating that Chinese rise is not self made neither in terms of manufacturing much of which is US and Western Europe manufacturing base moved into China nor culturally as socialism ideas came from Soviet Union and current aspirations are western by origin.

    " I do believe that the low hanging fruit of that has already been exploited."
    This one I actually do not share with you. I actually had conversation last summer with my father in law who is very good at math, higher math I would say due to his background. We spoke about ancient Greece scientists and those of Renaissance. He is of opinion that those people were genuine geniuses as there was nothing at all. No foundation to draw upon.No previous knowledge. They reached to those conclusions and discovered those laws via observations, thinking and sheer genius. Why there is no Chinese among those people? Mostly it is people of Mediterranean with Greeks being the most pronounced. Then again Middle ages. I consider Tang the most open minded of all Chinese dynasties and my favorite with great prosperity yet. Nothing comparable.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  195. Vidi says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I'm curious if you think that finite resources specifically to cheap energy will be exhausted in say, within the next generation - you said that fracking is not sustainable, but why? Despite peak oil concerns, it seems to have been put off for quite some time.

    You need to look further than merely the next generation.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  196. Vidi says:
    @anonymous
    I never tried to imply that I think the Tibetans and Uighurs are oppressed, just that it's better to take it straight from the horses mouth. Those studies done by 'Western sources' were done in collaboration with Chinese sources. I'm familiar enough with how Chinese compile data to be at least a little skeptical. But thanks, I'll take it with a grain of salt. I don't have the time or energy to look into the veracity of those claims. Although I will admit that there could be quite a bit of truth to it.

    On the whole, I'm pretty optimistic about China's future and their future role in the world. Last time I was there 5 years ago I was very impressed with how much of their cities and certain aspects of their culture seemed to already be at a first world level, despite having such a low gdp per capita. I've also noticed a similar pattern in Southeast Asian countries, especially parts of Thailand, but also in Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia as well. I'm also not as sour on India's prospects as some other people are, but that will probably take quite a bit longer. In India's case, it doesn't help that many Western educated Indians don't go back to their home country in an attempt to help speed up development there.

    However, China's case is especially interesting due to the sheer speed and ease with which they pick up on Western technology and (positive) cultural aspects and mannerism, ect. It strikes me as though their economy has been, in a way, artificially depressed for a very long time. This is why I find it a tad annoying when I see progressives who are interested in China pretend that China's recent success is due to the communist revolution and subsequent interventions. They like to paint China as a communist success story. Looking at Taiwan or South Korea, we already know that this isn't the case. China's success has taken off as soon as they began to embraced a similar style of capitalism (although, not the same) as their Asian neighbors.

    This is why I find it a tad annoying when I see progressives who are interested in China pretend that China’s recent success is due to the communist revolution and subsequent interventions. They like to paint China as a communist success story. Looking at Taiwan or South Korea, we already know that this isn’t the case. China’s success has taken off as soon as they began to embraced a similar style of capitalism (although, not the same) as their Asian neighbors.

    Well, if you get to point out Taiwan and South Korea as successes from which China copied, I get to point out the Soviet Union.

    Yes, the Soviets (mainly Russia) were very successful for quite a while; and Taiwan and South Korea will be lucky to last that long. China definitely borrowed from the SU.

    I think it’s truer to say that China’s combination of mostly socialism and a little capitalism is responsible for the country’s rapid development.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous

    and Taiwan and South Korea will be lucky to last that long

     

    Last how long? What is it that you suppose will happen to Taiwan's and South Korea's economies in the near future?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  197. Yeah but they’ll never match our levels of diversity and inclusion!!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  198. @Astuteobservor II

    China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious people have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs.
     
    all of this, all the major breakthroughs happened before the modern china though :) the last dynasty was all about keeping the native population in control, nothing else mattered. it was a matter of survival for the last dynasty. and old china has some ground breaking inventions :)

    china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years :) this is what all the videos in the article was all about. the point of the article was about how much china has achieved in such a short time and if the trend continues, it will leave the west in the dust.

    it's economy is already bigger than usa by about 15%. think about that for a few. numbers speaks volumes. you can't spin that, well you could bring up the per capita spin :)

    What I am trying to say is that China rise was not self made. Firstly assisted by Soviet union and then by usa and combined West. Imagine no help from either and where China would have been. Some note. 1921 Soviet Russia was lying in ruins and within 20 years was producing technologies that were better than those of the West.china has been at this since 1950 and it is still buying weapons from Russia. It is 67 years…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else. why would you even compare 1921 russia to china? even I can think of how long it takes to produce enough human capital in science and tech, especially if the start is from zero. your comparison is akin to comparing a PHD and a child. the child will obviously need time to grow and learn before it can compete with the PHD :)

    67 years is a joke right?

    When you are behind and you want to catch up quickly, what is wrong with learning and copying? you must first learn the existing knowledge before you can participate in discovery and creation right? this is k1-k12 and 4 years of college. but we can apply this to a country catching up easily. SU got a partner against usa, same with usa later on vs SU. usa gets profits, while china gets infrastructure. please don't call it help. this is why my first comment was about you hating on china :) But now I know better, it wasn't hate, but jealousy :)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  199. Avery says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious people have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs.
     
    all of this, all the major breakthroughs happened before the modern china though :) the last dynasty was all about keeping the native population in control, nothing else mattered. it was a matter of survival for the last dynasty. and old china has some ground breaking inventions :)

    china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years :) this is what all the videos in the article was all about. the point of the article was about how much china has achieved in such a short time and if the trend continues, it will leave the west in the dust.

    it's economy is already bigger than usa by about 15%. think about that for a few. numbers speaks volumes. you can't spin that, well you could bring up the per capita spin :)

    {china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years}

    Poster [Sergey Krieger] is correct: China didn’t do it on its own.

    If it weren’t for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.

    In the case of all three American knowhow – such as semiconductor factories – were transferred wholesale, and whatever they produced was allowed to be, well, dumped, in the US.
    Japanese were notorious for not allowing any American manufactured goods into Japan, while they had open access to American markets.

    Japanese, Korean, Chinese are hard working, intelligent people. But with the very important start given them by American consumers and American taxpayers, they could not have come this far this fast.

    And US/West never regarded China as an enemy: USSR and now Russia are regarded as an impediment to Globalists’ desire to subdue and run the world, so RF must be dismembered and rendered harmless. China minds its own business in its own neighborhood, and will not interfere with Globalist Neocons’ “work” in Middle East or Europe. So it’s allowed to profit from US consumer and grow and improve its industrial base.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    If it weren’t for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.
     
    About what happened in Japan and South Korea, I don't know in detail. But with regard to the third country on your list, it's China that's sending huge amounts of manufactured wealth to the U.S. and getting dollars of likely little long-term worth in return. As I see it, the Chinese are heavily subsidizing the Americans now.

    Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction. China probably considers it a tolerable arrangement, but the price has been extremely high. I have no idea how long this will last.
    , @Astuteobservor II
    I 100% agree with you about japan and south korea, but not on china :) the chinese achieved what they have now in spite of us :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  200. @Daniel Chieh
    J. Wong is mostly a troll and isn't worth too much time.

    Hence we already have some statistics and history and the West as Greece you pointed and later reincarnation showed clear trend in producing outstanding people who produced outstanding results
     
    But hardly the same people, and it should be noted, hardly the same sensibility. It can be an improvement: I think that the Renaissance conception of Roman society was better than actual Roman society at least in terms of individualism, as the same conceptions of dignitas and gravitas were neglected.

    I also really do not think that modern China has the same culture as the China of yore, something of both promise and sadness to me, or even in many ways the same people - when millions of individuals die, it causes genuine population changes. At any rate - insofar as fundamental discoveries, I do believe that the low hanging fruit of that has already been exploited. But when it comes to other technologies, especially in application, China actually has been doing pretty well to name three areas: CRISPR research, quantum communication, and 3d printing.

    Indeed sad. Now China essentially looks like Western country with many aspirations shared. It is one of the point I was making stating that Chinese rise is not self made neither in terms of manufacturing much of which is US and Western Europe manufacturing base moved into China nor culturally as socialism ideas came from Soviet Union and current aspirations are western by origin.

    ” I do believe that the low hanging fruit of that has already been exploited.”
    This one I actually do not share with you. I actually had conversation last summer with my father in law who is very good at math, higher math I would say due to his background. We spoke about ancient Greece scientists and those of Renaissance. He is of opinion that those people were genuine geniuses as there was nothing at all. No foundation to draw upon.No previous knowledge. They reached to those conclusions and discovered those laws via observations, thinking and sheer genius. Why there is no Chinese among those people? Mostly it is people of Mediterranean with Greeks being the most pronounced. Then again Middle ages. I consider Tang the most open minded of all Chinese dynasties and my favorite with great prosperity yet. Nothing comparable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    China actually had a well developed mathematics canon as well, I'll have to find the source for you later. IMO, the primary difference was that China(and derived cultures) used an inductive method of analysis from the many to the one as opposed to a deductive method of analysis of reasoning from the one to the many. This could be useful in some ways, but was overall inferior as a method to finding first principles.

    An example of this contrast was the Greek reasoning of "wood" to be reduced to an atom" by ascribing a perfect essence of "wood" as a particle, which was to then reason to all products made of wood to have this essence. This could lead to practical error as all wood is not the same, yet the effort to attribute an indivisible and pure essence would lead to a great deal of discovery later on; the similar mindset of the alchemical goal of transmuting gold as a noble element by purifying base elements from lead didn't result in the creation of gold(cleanliness and godliness does not split atoms), but did discover the still, whiskey, and other useful implements.

    On the other hand, Chinese reasoning of the world was holistic - any piece of wood was also due to the condition of the soil it was grown in, the region it was from, and so on. While often practically useful, this meant that most inventions would have to be discovered empirically and rarely cross applied; e.g. Qin chariots appeared to be using mass produced parts, but mass production would not become widely applied and in the ensuring chaos the notion was lost. As a system of thinking, it did lead to its own advances(and I think is sociologically, very astute), but was overall less useful for discovering first principles.

    There's always Al La Wik incidentally on independent Chinese mathematics:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mathematics

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  201. @Sergey Krieger
    What I am trying to say is that China rise was not self made. Firstly assisted by Soviet union and then by usa and combined West. Imagine no help from either and where China would have been. Some note. 1921 Soviet Russia was lying in ruins and within 20 years was producing technologies that were better than those of the West.china has been at this since 1950 and it is still buying weapons from Russia. It is 67 years...

    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else. why would you even compare 1921 russia to china? even I can think of how long it takes to produce enough human capital in science and tech, especially if the start is from zero. your comparison is akin to comparing a PHD and a child. the child will obviously need time to grow and learn before it can compete with the PHD :)

    67 years is a joke right?

    When you are behind and you want to catch up quickly, what is wrong with learning and copying? you must first learn the existing knowledge before you can participate in discovery and creation right? this is k1-k12 and 4 years of college. but we can apply this to a country catching up easily. SU got a partner against usa, same with usa later on vs SU. usa gets profits, while china gets infrastructure. please don’t call it help. this is why my first comment was about you hating on china :) But now I know better, it wasn’t hate, but jealousy :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    It is neither. I stand by my opinion that without Western investments and manufacturing transfer China would be now nowhere near its level. Now, it is you are talking toys. i did not mention anything like this. But China is state controlled economy which obviously used profits derived form selling other goods at the West to build heavy industries and machine making industry. But the source that allowed this was income form those industries which were transferred to china from the west and obviously mutual companies and investments.
    China is a big country. Obviously it needs a lot more of steel and concrete than countries with smaller population.
    Soviet Union was unlucky to have morons and traitors at the very top and China was lucky to have wise Deng. Luck is also important. But you saying that Russia was on the same level as other Western countries is not true. Actually Russia had about same percentage of peasants in population as China. In 1921 it was all irrelevant because Russia GDP was mere 10% of 1914 due to extreme destruction. China also got lucky that after 1945 there was no major war on her territory which actually happened with SU right when USSR was taking off and reached 2nd place in the world. Unlike China, there was no investments and manufacturing transfer into USSR. Whatever was needed had to be bought. Also, China started with copying and it has been copying for quite some time and still is copying after decades.
    , @Andrei Martyanov

    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else.
     
    You mean like being 70% illiterate. You need to ask Anatoly Karlin, he will tell and even support his claim of how awesome Russian Empire was with colorful graphs. I agree with one thing, though, Russian creative and technical genius did begin to flourish in 18th Century. But structurally RI was doomed.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  202. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Vidi

    This is why I find it a tad annoying when I see progressives who are interested in China pretend that China’s recent success is due to the communist revolution and subsequent interventions. They like to paint China as a communist success story. Looking at Taiwan or South Korea, we already know that this isn’t the case. China’s success has taken off as soon as they began to embraced a similar style of capitalism (although, not the same) as their Asian neighbors.
     
    Well, if you get to point out Taiwan and South Korea as successes from which China copied, I get to point out the Soviet Union.

    Yes, the Soviets (mainly Russia) were very successful for quite a while; and Taiwan and South Korea will be lucky to last that long. China definitely borrowed from the SU.

    I think it's truer to say that China's combination of mostly socialism and a little capitalism is responsible for the country's rapid development.

    and Taiwan and South Korea will be lucky to last that long

    Last how long? What is it that you suppose will happen to Taiwan’s and South Korea’s economies in the near future?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    Last how long? What is it that you suppose will happen to Taiwan’s and South Korea’s economies in the near future?
     
    Both of these places have small populations and few natural resources. They will likely go down when the U.S. does, probably sooner.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  203. Lin says:
    @Sergey Krieger
    MChinese success is mostly West made as without massive Western investments and outright transfer of manufacturing base from USA and other countries China would not have chance to rise in such manner
    It lacked in every department, both resources, tech and human factor to achieve such rise on her own. Attempts by Mao and early Deng were quite I structure as real take off happened in 90s-2000 when it poured from the West. Now everything in stores is made in China... Why? Because everything was offshored. The whole project is also not sustainable long term and the scale is so huge because population size requires this. Same rates of growth with say 150 -300 mill in population would not have been as impressive. I also wonder how much of this activities is mere waste and debt without any long term benefits.

    ” Chinese success is mostly West made as without massive Western investments and outright transfer of manufacturing base from USA and other countries China would not have chance to rise in such manner..”
    That’s simply untrue. Just tell me how much western investment on labour intensive manufacture in china compared to internal Chinese investment?
    Do you have any idea how much does it cost to build an integrated steel plant(I mean together with the rolling mill, mines and rail transport set up) of 1 million ton/yr capacity or a coal or gas fired 1 million KW electric power plant? The figures I got are 1 -2 $billion. In case you aren’t aware Chinese steel capacity is something between 800 million to 1 billion ton, about 50% of the world’s total
    A nation like China doesn’t grow economically by making shirts or toys for the yanks. However, here I must state that china did import(and pay for)continuous steel casting tech from japan.

    That Chinese economical success is ‘mostly West made’ is simply untrue

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    That’s simply untrue. Just tell me how much western investment on labour intensive manufacture in china compared to internal Chinese investment?
    Do you have any idea how much does it cost to build an integrated steel plant(I mean together with the rolling mill, mines and rail transport set up) of 1 million ton/yr capacity or a coal or gas fired 1 million KW electric power plant? The figures I got are 1 -2 $billion. In case you aren’t aware Chinese steel capacity is something between 800 million to 1 billion ton, about 50% of the world’s total
    A nation like China doesn’t grow economically by making shirts or toys for the yanks. However, here I must state that china did import(and pay for)continuous steel casting tech from japan.

    That Chinese economical success is ‘mostly West made’ is simply untrue
     
    I agree. China's success was made mostly in China. For example, the vast investment in education didn't come from the West. The huge labour pool was there no thanks to the West. And the extremely effective government was not Western.

    China cooperated in offshoring in order to buy some Western technology, and initially some products of Western technology (such as CNC machines). Beyond that, I don't see much benefit from being exploited by the U.S.
    , @MEFOBILLS
    Lin, The U.S. and the West transferred their knowledge base as patrimony to China, especially starting in the mid to early 90's.

    Clinton's MFN status for China came soon after China swept communist era debt off the ledger. Then Wall Street starting Green Mailing American Captains of Industry. This forced American industry to leave the country, to then get wage arbitrage.

    Entire factories and 100's of years of know how was sold cheaply to make wage arbitrage today. This short circuited the normal investment, equity, more investment cycle in the West. It also screwed the future by giving away know -how cheaply.

    At night, Chinese would transfer knowledge from Western factories to copy cat Chinese factories.

    China state banks also manipulated the Yuan Dollar ratio to keep dollar exchange rate high. This was done by buying TBills, rather than goods from American Mainstreet. So, recycled Chinese dollars, would then spin back out to buy more Chinese goods.

    Chinese inflows of dollars into the U.S. also did skiff and skim. Skiff was bribe money paid to dock workers. Retail got skim to place Chinese goods on American store shelves.

    China also gave out Yuan loans for American target industry, even going to trade fairs and the like. This then attracted American genius to then work for China. The American genius was taxpayer funded.

    So, any fair assessment of China has to include the many schemes that were run by Wall Street predators, as well as games played by Chinese manipulators.

    False pride......
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  204. @Sergey Krieger
    Indeed sad. Now China essentially looks like Western country with many aspirations shared. It is one of the point I was making stating that Chinese rise is not self made neither in terms of manufacturing much of which is US and Western Europe manufacturing base moved into China nor culturally as socialism ideas came from Soviet Union and current aspirations are western by origin.

    " I do believe that the low hanging fruit of that has already been exploited."
    This one I actually do not share with you. I actually had conversation last summer with my father in law who is very good at math, higher math I would say due to his background. We spoke about ancient Greece scientists and those of Renaissance. He is of opinion that those people were genuine geniuses as there was nothing at all. No foundation to draw upon.No previous knowledge. They reached to those conclusions and discovered those laws via observations, thinking and sheer genius. Why there is no Chinese among those people? Mostly it is people of Mediterranean with Greeks being the most pronounced. Then again Middle ages. I consider Tang the most open minded of all Chinese dynasties and my favorite with great prosperity yet. Nothing comparable.

    China actually had a well developed mathematics canon as well, I’ll have to find the source for you later. IMO, the primary difference was that China(and derived cultures) used an inductive method of analysis from the many to the one as opposed to a deductive method of analysis of reasoning from the one to the many. This could be useful in some ways, but was overall inferior as a method to finding first principles.

    An example of this contrast was the Greek reasoning of “wood” to be reduced to an atom” by ascribing a perfect essence of “wood” as a particle, which was to then reason to all products made of wood to have this essence. This could lead to practical error as all wood is not the same, yet the effort to attribute an indivisible and pure essence would lead to a great deal of discovery later on; the similar mindset of the alchemical goal of transmuting gold as a noble element by purifying base elements from lead didn’t result in the creation of gold(cleanliness and godliness does not split atoms), but did discover the still, whiskey, and other useful implements.

    On the other hand, Chinese reasoning of the world was holistic – any piece of wood was also due to the condition of the soil it was grown in, the region it was from, and so on. While often practically useful, this meant that most inventions would have to be discovered empirically and rarely cross applied; e.g. Qin chariots appeared to be using mass produced parts, but mass production would not become widely applied and in the ensuring chaos the notion was lost. As a system of thinking, it did lead to its own advances(and I think is sociologically, very astute), but was overall less useful for discovering first principles.

    There’s always Al La Wik incidentally on independent Chinese mathematics:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mathematics

    Read More
    • Replies: @random rand
    My operating theory is that people just tend to ignore and forget Chinese scientific developments because European science shot to the moon after the industrial revolution. This is understandable since European development was so great after the industrial revolution that the rest of the world might as well have been unchanging compared to it. Like comparing linear growth with exponential growth. But this leads to people making factual mistakes like saying Chinese science was always lagging with few inventions although for most of history this was not exactly true. The real question that should be asked is what are the reasons for the industrial revolution. I don't think it is purely due to racial and cultural differences. Institutional and historical factors probably play quite a big role.
    , @Che Guava
    Daniel, of course I am not knowing.

    However, fossil fuels are not to last forever. One, two, three, four gen's, at most, it will be over. Human locusts are pushing population up and up, before you are noticing, it will be 10.000,000,000, it is already almost 80% of that ... and most of the growth in populations are from
    where most are retarded, and from the most retarded among them.

    Although there is that theory that fossil fuels are to flowing up from the magma, no evidence for it.

    'Fracking' is obscene on at least three levels. In no particular order,

    i. it is the last-ditch effort,

    ii. it is ruining and poisoning water tables, already under stress,

    iii. it is wrecking geological structure, enough that many places nowhere near fault lines, but where (as of now, minor) 'fracking' is conducted, are to experience earthquakes on the lower end of the upper half of the scale.

    I would expecting the energy budget (I/O) to also be inefficient.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  205. Vidi says:
    @Avery
    {china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years}

    Poster [Sergey Krieger] is correct: China didn't do it on its own.

    If it weren't for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.

    In the case of all three American knowhow - such as semiconductor factories - were transferred wholesale, and whatever they produced was allowed to be, well, dumped, in the US.
    Japanese were notorious for not allowing any American manufactured goods into Japan, while they had open access to American markets.

    Japanese, Korean, Chinese are hard working, intelligent people. But with the very important start given them by American consumers and American taxpayers, they could not have come this far this fast.

    And US/West never regarded China as an enemy: USSR and now Russia are regarded as an impediment to Globalists' desire to subdue and run the world, so RF must be dismembered and rendered harmless. China minds its own business in its own neighborhood, and will not interfere with Globalist Neocons' "work" in Middle East or Europe. So it's allowed to profit from US consumer and grow and improve its industrial base.

    If it weren’t for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.

    About what happened in Japan and South Korea, I don’t know in detail. But with regard to the third country on your list, it’s China that’s sending huge amounts of manufactured wealth to the U.S. and getting dollars of likely little long-term worth in return. As I see it, the Chinese are heavily subsidizing the Americans now.

    Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction. China probably considers it a tolerable arrangement, but the price has been extremely high. I have no idea how long this will last.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    You are correct about now.

    But some decades ago, as US - well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists - started transferring America's manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America's manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America's workers and middle class were the loser.

    Globalist corporations were the winners, in that their costs were lowered greatly: Chinese employees were paid pittance; there were hardly any regulations as hours worked and such*; no visits from OSHA,......

    So, yeah: what I wrote above holds true, as far as China (...and Japan, and SK) getting a head-start thanks to America.

    {Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction.}

    Right, with qualifications.
    1) don't know about the date, so won't challenge it
    2) to whom has that wealth flow been to? certainly not to the American middle class or workers. US middle class is slowly but surely disappearing. we are becoming a nation of rich and poor, with a missing middle class.

    And at some point in the future, as Chinese learn from the flow of technology from US to China, they will no longer need US, and Americans will be the paupers......
    __________________
    * I am sure you have heard about the worker suicides at e.g. Foxconn (Apple's sub).

    , @Astuteobservor II
    this arrangement is already dying. the AIIB is the signal this arrangement is ending. china is trying to grow it's own consumer base to replace the american ones. once that is done, the deal is kaput. it is why anti china chatter picked up like crazy starting at the time of asian pivot :) it was all about keeping china down and make sure it stays as just a manufacturing base for the american consumers.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  206. @Astuteobservor II
    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else. why would you even compare 1921 russia to china? even I can think of how long it takes to produce enough human capital in science and tech, especially if the start is from zero. your comparison is akin to comparing a PHD and a child. the child will obviously need time to grow and learn before it can compete with the PHD :)

    67 years is a joke right?

    When you are behind and you want to catch up quickly, what is wrong with learning and copying? you must first learn the existing knowledge before you can participate in discovery and creation right? this is k1-k12 and 4 years of college. but we can apply this to a country catching up easily. SU got a partner against usa, same with usa later on vs SU. usa gets profits, while china gets infrastructure. please don't call it help. this is why my first comment was about you hating on china :) But now I know better, it wasn't hate, but jealousy :)

    It is neither. I stand by my opinion that without Western investments and manufacturing transfer China would be now nowhere near its level. Now, it is you are talking toys. i did not mention anything like this. But China is state controlled economy which obviously used profits derived form selling other goods at the West to build heavy industries and machine making industry. But the source that allowed this was income form those industries which were transferred to china from the west and obviously mutual companies and investments.
    China is a big country. Obviously it needs a lot more of steel and concrete than countries with smaller population.
    Soviet Union was unlucky to have morons and traitors at the very top and China was lucky to have wise Deng. Luck is also important. But you saying that Russia was on the same level as other Western countries is not true. Actually Russia had about same percentage of peasants in population as China. In 1921 it was all irrelevant because Russia GDP was mere 10% of 1914 due to extreme destruction. China also got lucky that after 1945 there was no major war on her territory which actually happened with SU right when USSR was taking off and reached 2nd place in the world. Unlike China, there was no investments and manufacturing transfer into USSR. Whatever was needed had to be bought. Also, China started with copying and it has been copying for quite some time and still is copying after decades.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    I stand by my opinion that without Western investments and manufacturing transfer China would be now nowhere near its level.
     
    I mean, how am I suppose to respond to something like this? how can you not have an opinion like this in today's global economy where everything is connected? I mean this is obvious. what I was refuting was your claim of "help". when it was basically business deals. I simply don't understand how you can categorized those deals as help. your attempts at putting down china is what prompted me to write about your hatred and jealousy.

    luck has nothing to do with it. china played the geopolitics game well. having good leaders is not luck. look at trump, it is not bad luck that he is president. americans voted for him.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  207. Vidi says:
    @anonymous

    and Taiwan and South Korea will be lucky to last that long

     

    Last how long? What is it that you suppose will happen to Taiwan's and South Korea's economies in the near future?

    Last how long? What is it that you suppose will happen to Taiwan’s and South Korea’s economies in the near future?

    Both of these places have small populations and few natural resources. They will likely go down when the U.S. does, probably sooner.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  208. @Astuteobservor II
    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else. why would you even compare 1921 russia to china? even I can think of how long it takes to produce enough human capital in science and tech, especially if the start is from zero. your comparison is akin to comparing a PHD and a child. the child will obviously need time to grow and learn before it can compete with the PHD :)

    67 years is a joke right?

    When you are behind and you want to catch up quickly, what is wrong with learning and copying? you must first learn the existing knowledge before you can participate in discovery and creation right? this is k1-k12 and 4 years of college. but we can apply this to a country catching up easily. SU got a partner against usa, same with usa later on vs SU. usa gets profits, while china gets infrastructure. please don't call it help. this is why my first comment was about you hating on china :) But now I know better, it wasn't hate, but jealousy :)

    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else.

    You mean like being 70% illiterate. You need to ask Anatoly Karlin, he will tell and even support his claim of how awesome Russian Empire was with colorful graphs. I agree with one thing, though, Russian creative and technical genius did begin to flourish in 18th Century. But structurally RI was doomed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    see, I knew I was making sense :) 18th century is 200 years ahead of china. 70% illiteracy is not a problem as long as you have scientists and engineers already. what are the literacy rates of other countries at the time? that would give a clearer picture.

    when the west split the atom, china didn't even start yet. even when nixon visited china in the 70s. it was still considered an agrarian country. agrarian to #1 economic power in 40 years is something. no matter how you slice it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  209. Avery says:
    @Vidi

    If it weren’t for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.
     
    About what happened in Japan and South Korea, I don't know in detail. But with regard to the third country on your list, it's China that's sending huge amounts of manufactured wealth to the U.S. and getting dollars of likely little long-term worth in return. As I see it, the Chinese are heavily subsidizing the Americans now.

    Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction. China probably considers it a tolerable arrangement, but the price has been extremely high. I have no idea how long this will last.

    You are correct about now.

    But some decades ago, as US – well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists – started transferring America’s manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America’s manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America’s workers and middle class were the loser.

    Globalist corporations were the winners, in that their costs were lowered greatly: Chinese employees were paid pittance; there were hardly any regulations as hours worked and such*; no visits from OSHA,……

    So, yeah: what I wrote above holds true, as far as China (…and Japan, and SK) getting a head-start thanks to America.

    {Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction.}

    Right, with qualifications.
    1) don’t know about the date, so won’t challenge it
    2) to whom has that wealth flow been to? certainly not to the American middle class or workers. US middle class is slowly but surely disappearing. we are becoming a nation of rich and poor, with a missing middle class.

    And at some point in the future, as Chinese learn from the flow of technology from US to China, they will no longer need US, and Americans will be the paupers……
    __________________
    * I am sure you have heard about the worker suicides at e.g. Foxconn (Apple’s sub).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    But some decades ago, as US – well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists – started transferring America’s manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America’s manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America’s workers and middle class were the loser.
     
    If we ignore the vast human misery, outsourcing was mutually beneficial: China got technology from the US, and the American elites benefited from the gross exploitation of Chinese workers (almost slavery). Many people here are saying or implying that the US has been extremely generous to China, and completely ignoring the exploitation.

    I am sure you have heard about the worker suicides at e.g. Foxconn (Apple’s sub).
     
    Yes. That was a consequence of the exploitation. China as a whole does benefit, but as I said, the price has been extremely high. I am seriously ambivalent about this.
    , @Miro23

    But some decades ago, as US – well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists – started transferring America’s manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America’s manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America’s workers and middle class were the loser.
    Globalist corporations were the winners, in that their costs were lowered greatly: Chinese employees were paid pittance; there were hardly any regulations as hours worked and such*; no visits from OSHA,……
     
    It seems that there were a confluence of factors needed to make this happen in the US, China and in technology:

    UNITED STATES - By the early 1980's the Neoliberal zeitgeist was the received wisdom of academia. The ideas were that "Everyone gained from world trade and specialization", "Outsourcing freed up US labour for retraining in high tech sectors", "the US was an advanced Post Industrial services economy", "self interest benefited everyone" (Greed is Good). It was also the time of financial deregulation, allowing debt to keep up spending and replace employment income lost to China.
    Corporate (and other) Special Interests took over the US political process typified by the Clintons, accompanied by the collapse of civic society with Citizens being replaced by atomized Consumers addicted to very low priced products impossible to manufacture in the US.

    CHINA - In contrast to US leadership, Chinese leadership had national development plans designed to benefit the whole of society, Deng Xiaoping ("Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" - in other words National Socialism) centered around technical education, export led industrial development (making up for the lack of domestic demand) and following the earlier successful Japanese example. Necessary infrastructure was developed (ports, roads, communications) to build a Singapore style society ready to accommodate Western outsourcers needs - while acquiring their technology. The corollary was a non-conflictive foreign policy (other than Chinese issues like Hong Kong and Taiwan) with a focus on trade rather than war.

    TECHNOLOGY - The internet provided unprecedented possibilities for the control of international production, logistics and integration of demand/supply, fully exploited by US outsourcers and Chinese manufacturers.

    Andy Grove (ex CEO of Intel) was aware of the problem and wrote a fine article about it "How America can Create Jobs" (2010) http://www.openvms.org/http%3A//www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-07-01/andy-grove-how-america-can-create-jobs , which was predictably buried.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  210. @Avery
    {china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years}

    Poster [Sergey Krieger] is correct: China didn't do it on its own.

    If it weren't for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.

    In the case of all three American knowhow - such as semiconductor factories - were transferred wholesale, and whatever they produced was allowed to be, well, dumped, in the US.
    Japanese were notorious for not allowing any American manufactured goods into Japan, while they had open access to American markets.

    Japanese, Korean, Chinese are hard working, intelligent people. But with the very important start given them by American consumers and American taxpayers, they could not have come this far this fast.

    And US/West never regarded China as an enemy: USSR and now Russia are regarded as an impediment to Globalists' desire to subdue and run the world, so RF must be dismembered and rendered harmless. China minds its own business in its own neighborhood, and will not interfere with Globalist Neocons' "work" in Middle East or Europe. So it's allowed to profit from US consumer and grow and improve its industrial base.

    I 100% agree with you about japan and south korea, but not on china :) the chinese achieved what they have now in spite of us :)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  211. @Vidi
    Great, this thread is back! I'm glad as I think Jeff wrote a good article. Looks like there was a crash and all the previous comments were lost. I'll try to recreate mine, as I think they made some decent points.

    Why? While China is zeroing in on 30,000km of HST track, more than the rest of the world combined, along with hundreds of architecturally inspiring train stations to serve them, California has 2,000 lawsuits fighting its proposal. Why? Greedy capitalists and their purchased government employees and representatives are fighting each other for the loot, like cannibals in a kill pit of corruption, while selfish citizens are putting their individual interests ahead of the greater good. The latter is called NIMBY, Not in My Backyard.
     
    Many Westerners (and Indians) probably think that China starts a megapoject by bulldozing people off the land and leaving them destitute. That is not the case at all, but I am not surprised that the Western media fails to be entirely truthful.

    It is true that people are displaced, but what the Western propaganda carefully does not say is that the Chinese government builds new, free housing for these people and generally leaves them better off. Thus there really wasn't much resistance from those who had to make way for the Three Gorges dam. Similarly, during the building frenzy in Beijing in 2007-8, just before the Olympics, people were actually hoping to be the next to be moved out for a new stadium or road.

    Occasionally, a corrupt official will basically steal the land, but this is the exception, not the rule.

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.
     
    I didn't know the cost of compensation was that high, but I am not surprised that China's government would do it. It's the communist way. It's also the Confucian way, thousands of years old -- it's harsh at times, and occasionally corrupt (cf. the Ming dynasty), but it's more often benevolent aand far-seeing.
    , @wrd9
    Jeff J. Brown - You're another Walter Duranty.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/19/world/asia/19dam.html

    http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/two-decades-after-forced-relocation-yangtze-dam-evictees-lack-compensation-04062016113308.html
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  212. @Conor Fields
    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, but do you seriously deny the fact that the mindset of most Mainland Chinese people is bordering on sociopathic in nature? I've been all over the world just like you have, and I unfortunately lived in China for over a decade, and I have never, ever encountered any society in which pathological levels of inconsideration, boorishness, and selfishness are so pervasive.

    You're right about the advantages of the Chinese political and economic systems when it comes to large-scale projects. It's superior to the US's broken system in which large companies and other wealthy groups continuously use the government as a tool to enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else -- because at this point, almost every developed nation's political system is superior to that of the US. Is it really that surprising, though, that the Chinese system along with lots of cheap labor is successful at doing what every other developed nation has already managed to do, albeit on a larger scale? I mean, construction workers can do a large portion of the building of bridges, buildings, and subway systems if you clearly tell them how to do it and make sure their tasks are small and simple enough for them to comprehend. These things are not that difficult if all the relevant ideas have already been thought up by others and you've got a limitless supply of workers who will work for low wages. Have you ever taught in a Mainland Chinese school? Have you learned Mandarin and sat down and tried to have intelligent, nuanced conversations with Mainland Chinese people? I've done these things in China and in many other countries, and I have tried to look for the good in Chinese people and to look for social differences that could create the illusion of impaired critical thinking ability, but I just can't avoid coming to the conclusion that Chinese people genuinely are missing something important when it comes to both empathy and critical thinking.

    It took me many years to figure out Chinese behavior versus the West, but here it is in a nutshell:

    Westerners are territorial individuals, who act lineally, wanting to go directly from point A to point B, and get out of my way, thank you.

    Chinese are social communitarians who act elliptically and holistically, using the path of least resistance, let’s both get out if each other’s way, and there’s no time to say “thank you”.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  213. @Andrei Martyanov

    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else.
     
    You mean like being 70% illiterate. You need to ask Anatoly Karlin, he will tell and even support his claim of how awesome Russian Empire was with colorful graphs. I agree with one thing, though, Russian creative and technical genius did begin to flourish in 18th Century. But structurally RI was doomed.

    see, I knew I was making sense :) 18th century is 200 years ahead of china. 70% illiteracy is not a problem as long as you have scientists and engineers already. what are the literacy rates of other countries at the time? that would give a clearer picture.

    when the west split the atom, china didn’t even start yet. even when nixon visited china in the 70s. it was still considered an agrarian country. agrarian to #1 economic power in 40 years is something. no matter how you slice it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    And who helped China to build her first modern manufacturing base? Who trained Chinese engineers and also helped in the beginning with development of the Bomb? USSR. Again, do you really believe China would have been where it is now without it and what followed later as investement s and as you say business deals from the West? I have serious doubts.
    , @Andrei Martyanov

    what are the literacy rates of other countries at the time? that would give a clearer picture.
     
    In accordance to Rubakin's article "Literacy" from New Encyclopedic Dictionary of 1916, the spread (selected) was next per illiterate % for 1911:

    Russia--61.7%
    Serbia--49.6%
    Italy--30.6%
    Belgium--8.5%
    France-3.3%
    Holland--1.5%
    Germany-0.02%

    I think no comments are necessary. Russian Army prior to WW I had 33% illiterate recruits, followed by Italy with 10.8%, France 4.3% and Germany with 0.03%. From Russian Military-statistical Digest, 1912.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  214. @Sergey Krieger
    It is neither. I stand by my opinion that without Western investments and manufacturing transfer China would be now nowhere near its level. Now, it is you are talking toys. i did not mention anything like this. But China is state controlled economy which obviously used profits derived form selling other goods at the West to build heavy industries and machine making industry. But the source that allowed this was income form those industries which were transferred to china from the west and obviously mutual companies and investments.
    China is a big country. Obviously it needs a lot more of steel and concrete than countries with smaller population.
    Soviet Union was unlucky to have morons and traitors at the very top and China was lucky to have wise Deng. Luck is also important. But you saying that Russia was on the same level as other Western countries is not true. Actually Russia had about same percentage of peasants in population as China. In 1921 it was all irrelevant because Russia GDP was mere 10% of 1914 due to extreme destruction. China also got lucky that after 1945 there was no major war on her territory which actually happened with SU right when USSR was taking off and reached 2nd place in the world. Unlike China, there was no investments and manufacturing transfer into USSR. Whatever was needed had to be bought. Also, China started with copying and it has been copying for quite some time and still is copying after decades.

    I stand by my opinion that without Western investments and manufacturing transfer China would be now nowhere near its level.

    I mean, how am I suppose to respond to something like this? how can you not have an opinion like this in today’s global economy where everything is connected? I mean this is obvious. what I was refuting was your claim of “help”. when it was basically business deals. I simply don’t understand how you can categorized those deals as help. your attempts at putting down china is what prompted me to write about your hatred and jealousy.

    luck has nothing to do with it. china played the geopolitics game well. having good leaders is not luck. look at trump, it is not bad luck that he is president. americans voted for him.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    I was not talking help, although it was :) Look, by doing what USA did it created huge competition and basically was major contributor to China rise. The underlying cause was greed to make more by transferring manufacturing to countries with lax labor laws and cheap labor. By doing this USA elites effectively destroyed own country long term prospects and helped China rise. Isn't it plain as a day? Who in right mind would do that unless completely blinded by greed.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  215. @Vidi

    If it weren’t for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.
     
    About what happened in Japan and South Korea, I don't know in detail. But with regard to the third country on your list, it's China that's sending huge amounts of manufactured wealth to the U.S. and getting dollars of likely little long-term worth in return. As I see it, the Chinese are heavily subsidizing the Americans now.

    Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction. China probably considers it a tolerable arrangement, but the price has been extremely high. I have no idea how long this will last.

    this arrangement is already dying. the AIIB is the signal this arrangement is ending. china is trying to grow it’s own consumer base to replace the american ones. once that is done, the deal is kaput. it is why anti china chatter picked up like crazy starting at the time of asian pivot :) it was all about keeping china down and make sure it stays as just a manufacturing base for the american consumers.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  216. lucidian says:
    @George Orwell
    No, nothing China has ever done is as sadistic and cruel as what the West does on a regular basis. A reckoning is coming and people like you should be ashamed and afraid of what your culture has to answer for.

    No culture is without its warts, without its dark side. But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    No culture is without its warts, without its dark side. But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.
     
    That is probably true, but please don't pretend that the West did all that with no help.

    For example, without paper and the printing press (both invented in China), the Renaissance would not have happened, and the West would still be in the Dark Ages. Without gunpowder (from China), the feudal system would still be prevalent, as the nobles would continue to be safe inside their invulnerable castles (no cannons blowing up the walls). Without the compass (invented guess where), the Age of Exploration would never have started. That's why China calls these the Four Great Inventions.

    Isaac Newton said that whatever he achieved, however far he saw, was because he stood on the shoulders of giants. He was right.
    , @Anonymous
    Actually, no other culture in the history of the world has done more harm to humanity than Western Europe.

    You should read non western view points before you make such ignorant statements.
    , @denk

    Sounds like Chinese government talking points. Chinese are not a warm people.

    Every Chinese person I have met is cold and aggressive.'
     
    Many Chinese I met are warm and friendly.

    I guess it all depends on your own persona,
    Birds of the same feather....

    Every culture has its warts, but China’s are massive, far off the scale of anything any Western country has done. China killed tens of millions of its own people under Mao only a few decades ago. ' [sic]

     

    Some Chinese 'dissidents' peg it at 100m,
    This seem to be the most 'authorative' story ,coming from a Chinese ! [sic]
    In other words, 100m killed unecessarily,
    by the murderous fukus grain embargo.


    'No culture is without its warts,
     
    FFS,
    Spare us your bloody tiresome disclaimer,
    especially when your warts have turned into deep lesions.


    .

    But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.'
     
    No wonder they say whiteys have such thick hide, not even a D.U. shell
    could punch thru `!
    hhhhhhh

    Western 'liberation' of the third world ,
    exhibit 1/10000...
    The Contras.

    *I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

    This is nobody's propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras.
    The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters'. He says they're the moral equivalent of our founding fathers.
    And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.

    May be he got a point there !
    uncle sham was cursed at birth see,
    A professional arsonist.
    hehehehe !

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4069.htm
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  217. üeljang says:
    @Joe Wong

    Aiso stealing much tech, much on China’s high-speda rail is stolen from Japan, they put out tenders, but the only objective is theft.
     
    It seems the Japanese not only denying their war crimes they are also copying the bad habit of the American by claiming credit where credit is not due.

    Please take note: Che is not Japanese.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  218. Vidi says:
    @Avery
    You are correct about now.

    But some decades ago, as US - well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists - started transferring America's manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America's manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America's workers and middle class were the loser.

    Globalist corporations were the winners, in that their costs were lowered greatly: Chinese employees were paid pittance; there were hardly any regulations as hours worked and such*; no visits from OSHA,......

    So, yeah: what I wrote above holds true, as far as China (...and Japan, and SK) getting a head-start thanks to America.

    {Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction.}

    Right, with qualifications.
    1) don't know about the date, so won't challenge it
    2) to whom has that wealth flow been to? certainly not to the American middle class or workers. US middle class is slowly but surely disappearing. we are becoming a nation of rich and poor, with a missing middle class.

    And at some point in the future, as Chinese learn from the flow of technology from US to China, they will no longer need US, and Americans will be the paupers......
    __________________
    * I am sure you have heard about the worker suicides at e.g. Foxconn (Apple's sub).

    But some decades ago, as US – well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists – started transferring America’s manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America’s manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America’s workers and middle class were the loser.

    If we ignore the vast human misery, outsourcing was mutually beneficial: China got technology from the US, and the American elites benefited from the gross exploitation of Chinese workers (almost slavery). Many people here are saying or implying that the US has been extremely generous to China, and completely ignoring the exploitation.

    I am sure you have heard about the worker suicides at e.g. Foxconn (Apple’s sub).

    Yes. That was a consequence of the exploitation. China as a whole does benefit, but as I said, the price has been extremely high. I am seriously ambivalent about this.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  219. @Astuteobservor II

    I stand by my opinion that without Western investments and manufacturing transfer China would be now nowhere near its level.
     
    I mean, how am I suppose to respond to something like this? how can you not have an opinion like this in today's global economy where everything is connected? I mean this is obvious. what I was refuting was your claim of "help". when it was basically business deals. I simply don't understand how you can categorized those deals as help. your attempts at putting down china is what prompted me to write about your hatred and jealousy.

    luck has nothing to do with it. china played the geopolitics game well. having good leaders is not luck. look at trump, it is not bad luck that he is president. americans voted for him.

    I was not talking help, although it was :) Look, by doing what USA did it created huge competition and basically was major contributor to China rise. The underlying cause was greed to make more by transferring manufacturing to countries with lax labor laws and cheap labor. By doing this USA elites effectively destroyed own country long term prospects and helped China rise. Isn’t it plain as a day? Who in right mind would do that unless completely blinded by greed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    want me to quote you? cause I can quote you directly from this comment chain? :) I usually don't do that to people I take seriously since I expect them to be consistent. :)

    it was simply a transaction.

    cold war ally + profits, a mix of both. the miscalculation was that usa didn't expect the chinese engine to rev up that fast :) agrarian country overtaking the usa's #1 post world war economy? dream on. I can understand that train of thought. and you really need to check out the usa manufacturing numbers, usa didn't lose anything to china, it just got more efficient at it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  220. @Astuteobservor II
    see, I knew I was making sense :) 18th century is 200 years ahead of china. 70% illiteracy is not a problem as long as you have scientists and engineers already. what are the literacy rates of other countries at the time? that would give a clearer picture.

    when the west split the atom, china didn't even start yet. even when nixon visited china in the 70s. it was still considered an agrarian country. agrarian to #1 economic power in 40 years is something. no matter how you slice it.

    And who helped China to build her first modern manufacturing base? Who trained Chinese engineers and also helped in the beginning with development of the Bomb? USSR. Again, do you really believe China would have been where it is now without it and what followed later as investement s and as you say business deals from the West? I have serious doubts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    Role of the Soviet Union with Chinese heavy industry, energy and machine building sector is undeniable. In the end, they still fly their knock off versions of all Soviet planes, from Tu-16 to An-12.
    , @Astuteobservor II
    haha, so you are saying instead of mao, it was soviet russia that (help)built china's foundation?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split

    In 1954, Nikita Khrushchev used trade agreements to improve the USSR's relations with the Peoples’ Republic of China, acknowledged Stalin’s economic unfairness to China, and negotiated for the USSR to fund fifteen industrial projects, and mutual exchanges of technicians.[9] The trade agreements exchanged economic specialists (ca. 10,000 by 1960) and political advisors (ca. 1,500); and the PRC sent labourers to reduce the shortage of workers in Siberia
     

    In 1959, Premier Khrushchev met with U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower (1953–61) to decrease tensions with the West. To that end, the USSR had reneged an agreement to provide technical aid for the development of a Chicom nuclear weapon
     
    everyone got something out of it, please don't use something as naive as "help" :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  221. @Astuteobservor II
    see, I knew I was making sense :) 18th century is 200 years ahead of china. 70% illiteracy is not a problem as long as you have scientists and engineers already. what are the literacy rates of other countries at the time? that would give a clearer picture.

    when the west split the atom, china didn't even start yet. even when nixon visited china in the 70s. it was still considered an agrarian country. agrarian to #1 economic power in 40 years is something. no matter how you slice it.

    what are the literacy rates of other countries at the time? that would give a clearer picture.

    In accordance to Rubakin’s article “Literacy” from New Encyclopedic Dictionary of 1916, the spread (selected) was next per illiterate % for 1911:

    Russia–61.7%
    Serbia–49.6%
    Italy–30.6%
    Belgium–8.5%
    France-3.3%
    Holland–1.5%
    Germany-0.02%

    I think no comments are necessary. Russian Army prior to WW I had 33% illiterate recruits, followed by Italy with 10.8%, France 4.3% and Germany with 0.03%. From Russian Military-statistical Digest, 1912.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    didn't have time to search for sources last night, but now I do :)

    http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0014/001462/146208e.pdf

    chinese illiteracy rate at 1949 was 80% :) picture clearer right? :) china was like a child compare to PHDs in the west. I stand by this comparison.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  222. @Sergey Krieger
    And who helped China to build her first modern manufacturing base? Who trained Chinese engineers and also helped in the beginning with development of the Bomb? USSR. Again, do you really believe China would have been where it is now without it and what followed later as investement s and as you say business deals from the West? I have serious doubts.

    Role of the Soviet Union with Chinese heavy industry, energy and machine building sector is undeniable. In the end, they still fly their knock off versions of all Soviet planes, from Tu-16 to An-12.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vidi

    Role of the Soviet Union with Chinese heavy industry, energy and machine building sector is undeniable.
     
    Very true.

    In the end, they still fly their knock off versions of all Soviet planes, from Tu-16 to An-12.
     
    They were good designs, so why mess with them?
    , @Sergey Krieger
    I think this is undeniable as well as Soviet uunion role in Mao victory and subseqisn't formation of People republic of China.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  223. Vidi says:
    @Jeff J. Brown
    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.

    I didn’t know the cost of compensation was that high, but I am not surprised that China’s government would do it. It’s the communist way. It’s also the Confucian way, thousands of years old — it’s harsh at times, and occasionally corrupt (cf. the Ming dynasty), but it’s more often benevolent aand far-seeing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Eagle Eye

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns.
     
    Are you sure it wasn't 61.72%? Or 59.83%?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  224. Eagle Eye says:
    @Joe Wong
    The video showed the Tibetans are performing their cult rituals in Lhasa Tibet China nowadays, if Tibetan’s religion is suppressed as the western narrator said in the video was true, then you will not see so many Tibetans performing those cult rituals so publicly for the West to film for their demonizing China propaganda. It is sad that your racial bigotry blinds you from picking up such contradiction right from beginning of the video.

    Dalai Lama was a wealthy slave owning Tibetan ‘compradores’ imported British goods and facilitated the takeover of local markets and resources in Tibet, as well as allowing the Anglo imperialist pillage forced greater exploitation and taxation of the great mass of Tibetans to suit the needs of the empire.

    The British and American are resentful that CCP terminated their exploitation of Tibetans, imperial domination of Tibet and the gratification of their White supremacy in front of the poverty ridden Tibetans. CCP exposed their imperialist undertaking in engineering Tibetan war lords arm revolt against Chinese central government and the exile of the Dalai Lama and his mentally colonized Tibetan ‘compradores’ by capturing the British and American agents during the putting down of the Tibetan armed rebellion. The British and American are vindictive, so they continue their anti-China propaganda with fake news like the videos you posted.

    The Dalai Lama is a wolf in monk's robes, a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast. Under the Dalai Lama rule, the Tibetan Constitution makes slavery/serfdom legal.
    It allows the buying and selling of Tibetans as slaves/serfs.
    The Dalai Lama in 1951 himself had owned 6500 slaves
    All the monasteries had owned slaves who do all the menial/dirty work.
    It divides Tibetan people into 3 main castes and 12 sub-castes --- with the slaves, the lowest castes.
    (1) the Tibetan nick-names for slaves was "Two-legged cattle"
    (2) these slaves were indeed bought and sold like cattle
    (3) They live in the cattle-shed together with the cattle
    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking "Who is your master?" instead of "what is your name"?
    *5) They were routinely tortured, abused, raped by their masters; gouging eyes, chopping hands and skinning alive were the common penalties under the Dalai Lama rule.
    (6) They had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter
    (7) When the escaped slaves ran to the monasteries for help they were told by monks to accept their Fate as KARMA --- and not to rebel , otherwise they would re-incarnate as something worse

    All of the above, the British and the American were serving the Dalai Lama as political advisors on the governing council.

    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking “Who is your master?” instead of “what is your name”?

    (6) [Tibetan slaves] had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter

    Your knowledge of subtleties of the Tibetan language as spoken by Tibetan slaves pre-1952 is truly impressive.

    Thank G-d China’s government does not engage in propaganda efforts, so we can enjoy unfiltered, factual information about China’s new subjects in Tibet.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  225. Vidi says:
    @Lin
    " Chinese success is mostly West made as without massive Western investments and outright transfer of manufacturing base from USA and other countries China would not have chance to rise in such manner.."
    That's simply untrue. Just tell me how much western investment on labour intensive manufacture in china compared to internal Chinese investment?
    Do you have any idea how much does it cost to build an integrated steel plant(I mean together with the rolling mill, mines and rail transport set up) of 1 million ton/yr capacity or a coal or gas fired 1 million KW electric power plant? The figures I got are 1 -2 $billion. In case you aren't aware Chinese steel capacity is something between 800 million to 1 billion ton, about 50% of the world's total
    A nation like China doesn't grow economically by making shirts or toys for the yanks. However, here I must state that china did import(and pay for)continuous steel casting tech from japan.

    That Chinese economical success is 'mostly West made' is simply untrue

    That’s simply untrue. Just tell me how much western investment on labour intensive manufacture in china compared to internal Chinese investment?
    Do you have any idea how much does it cost to build an integrated steel plant(I mean together with the rolling mill, mines and rail transport set up) of 1 million ton/yr capacity or a coal or gas fired 1 million KW electric power plant? The figures I got are 1 -2 $billion. In case you aren’t aware Chinese steel capacity is something between 800 million to 1 billion ton, about 50% of the world’s total
    A nation like China doesn’t grow economically by making shirts or toys for the yanks. However, here I must state that china did import(and pay for)continuous steel casting tech from japan.

    That Chinese economical success is ‘mostly West made’ is simply untrue

    I agree. China’s success was made mostly in China. For example, the vast investment in education didn’t come from the West. The huge labour pool was there no thanks to the West. And the extremely effective government was not Western.

    China cooperated in offshoring in order to buy some Western technology, and initially some products of Western technology (such as CNC machines). Beyond that, I don’t see much benefit from being exploited by the U.S.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  226. Eagle Eye says:
    @Vidi

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.
     
    I didn't know the cost of compensation was that high, but I am not surprised that China's government would do it. It's the communist way. It's also the Confucian way, thousands of years old -- it's harsh at times, and occasionally corrupt (cf. the Ming dynasty), but it's more often benevolent aand far-seeing.

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns.

    Are you sure it wasn’t 61.72%? Or 59.83%?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  227. Vidi says:
    @lucidian
    No culture is without its warts, without its dark side. But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.

    No culture is without its warts, without its dark side. But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.

    That is probably true, but please don’t pretend that the West did all that with no help.

    For example, without paper and the printing press (both invented in China), the Renaissance would not have happened, and the West would still be in the Dark Ages. Without gunpowder (from China), the feudal system would still be prevalent, as the nobles would continue to be safe inside their invulnerable castles (no cannons blowing up the walls). Without the compass (invented guess where), the Age of Exploration would never have started. That’s why China calls these the Four Great Inventions.

    Isaac Newton said that whatever he achieved, however far he saw, was because he stood on the shoulders of giants. He was right.

    Read More
    • Replies: @lucidian
    China has definitely had some impressive episodes in its past. But they always seemed to squash them afterward, in their insular, incurious way. It is lately, by adopting Western techniques, that they finally emerge onto the world stage, and out of their closed chamber of mirrors.

    The Silk Road has always been a deep trove of history for my studies, and a powerful symbol as well. Europeans had to travel halfway around the world just so their food wouldn't suck. Europe was eager for Asian spices and wares, China was eager for Europe's gold and silver. Islam squeezed the overland trade, so Europeans took to the seas, and the rest is history.

    I love that quote from Isaac Newton. And I love the spirit he exemplified, which, from my perspective is uniquely British/Western. There is a reason that tiny Britain came to dominate the planet. Scientific curiosity had a lot to do with it. It is culture that I'm talking about. Not any specific invention. Curiosity.

    China has "Four great inventions". Western Europe/America has four thousand.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  228. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov
    Role of the Soviet Union with Chinese heavy industry, energy and machine building sector is undeniable. In the end, they still fly their knock off versions of all Soviet planes, from Tu-16 to An-12.

    Role of the Soviet Union with Chinese heavy industry, energy and machine building sector is undeniable.

    Very true.

    In the end, they still fly their knock off versions of all Soviet planes, from Tu-16 to An-12.

    They were good designs, so why mess with them?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    They were good designs, so why mess with them?
     
    They were, but An-12 is obsolete design today by any measure. TU-16 theoretically can still fly if is used as a carrier of cruise missiles, granted avionics and engines (!!!) are up to date.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  229. denk says:
    @Conor Fields
    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, but do you seriously deny the fact that the mindset of most Mainland Chinese people is bordering on sociopathic in nature? I've been all over the world just like you have, and I unfortunately lived in China for over a decade, and I have never, ever encountered any society in which pathological levels of inconsideration, boorishness, and selfishness are so pervasive.

    You're right about the advantages of the Chinese political and economic systems when it comes to large-scale projects. It's superior to the US's broken system in which large companies and other wealthy groups continuously use the government as a tool to enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else -- because at this point, almost every developed nation's political system is superior to that of the US. Is it really that surprising, though, that the Chinese system along with lots of cheap labor is successful at doing what every other developed nation has already managed to do, albeit on a larger scale? I mean, construction workers can do a large portion of the building of bridges, buildings, and subway systems if you clearly tell them how to do it and make sure their tasks are small and simple enough for them to comprehend. These things are not that difficult if all the relevant ideas have already been thought up by others and you've got a limitless supply of workers who will work for low wages. Have you ever taught in a Mainland Chinese school? Have you learned Mandarin and sat down and tried to have intelligent, nuanced conversations with Mainland Chinese people? I've done these things in China and in many other countries, and I have tried to look for the good in Chinese people and to look for social differences that could create the illusion of impaired critical thinking ability, but I just can't avoid coming to the conclusion that Chinese people genuinely are missing something important when it comes to both empathy and critical thinking.

    Conor Fields

    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, [sic]

    Some wit once observed,

    Paradoxically,

    ‘Its those who speak with measured voice, follow exquisite ‘social etiquettes’,………. polite to a fault,
    its these ‘gentlemen‘ who are often capable of doing the worst kind of evil ‘

    [The original is more eloquent but you get the drift]

    —————————————————————————-
    Another case study of EVIL most foul…

    From a letter to general Michael Short…

    I now ask you, General:

    - Was it your son whose bombs hit a bridge in central Serbia crowded with traffic and pedestrians on a Sunday afternoon, where 17 people were wounded and nine people died, including “a priest with his head blasted away?” (Reuters, 30 May).

    Or was it your son who, four minutes after the initial attack, hit the bridge again just as help arrived for the surviving victims?

    - Was it your son whose bombs decapitated a Serbian child? “We found the head of a child in a garden and many limbs in the mud. But you don’t want to report that.

    CNN filmed the bodies, but they don’t show them on television” (The Independent, 29 April).

    - Was it your son whose bombs dismembered Serbian children making it almost impossible to match the children’s torsos with their arms and legs, although several were recognized by their sneakers? (The Guardian, 18 May).

    - Was it your son whose bombs buried people alive under tons of rubble from destroyed apartment buildings?

    - Was it your son whose bombs hit the convoy of ethnic Albanians reducing the victims to ashes, and then have your NATO pimp spokesperson, Jamie Shea, have the gall to deny that NATO pilots, possibly your son, were responsible for this atrocity by blaming it on the Serbs?
    [Robber crying robbery, standard anglo M.O.]

    - Was it your son who bombed hospitals, schools, orphanages, cemeteries, churches, 14th century monasteries on the World Heritage list, in a barbaric act to destroy Serbian culture, society and religion?

    ………………………….

    http://bit.ly/2yo8fjE

    Paradox indeed,
    Michael Short looks like the kind of guy who wouldnt jump queues at home
    and yet…….

    Is there a Mr. Hyde lurking beneath the veneer of Dr Jekyll , inside the anglo psyche ?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  230. @Daniel Chieh
    China actually had a well developed mathematics canon as well, I'll have to find the source for you later. IMO, the primary difference was that China(and derived cultures) used an inductive method of analysis from the many to the one as opposed to a deductive method of analysis of reasoning from the one to the many. This could be useful in some ways, but was overall inferior as a method to finding first principles.

    An example of this contrast was the Greek reasoning of "wood" to be reduced to an atom" by ascribing a perfect essence of "wood" as a particle, which was to then reason to all products made of wood to have this essence. This could lead to practical error as all wood is not the same, yet the effort to attribute an indivisible and pure essence would lead to a great deal of discovery later on; the similar mindset of the alchemical goal of transmuting gold as a noble element by purifying base elements from lead didn't result in the creation of gold(cleanliness and godliness does not split atoms), but did discover the still, whiskey, and other useful implements.

    On the other hand, Chinese reasoning of the world was holistic - any piece of wood was also due to the condition of the soil it was grown in, the region it was from, and so on. While often practically useful, this meant that most inventions would have to be discovered empirically and rarely cross applied; e.g. Qin chariots appeared to be using mass produced parts, but mass production would not become widely applied and in the ensuring chaos the notion was lost. As a system of thinking, it did lead to its own advances(and I think is sociologically, very astute), but was overall less useful for discovering first principles.

    There's always Al La Wik incidentally on independent Chinese mathematics:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mathematics

    My operating theory is that people just tend to ignore and forget Chinese scientific developments because European science shot to the moon after the industrial revolution. This is understandable since European development was so great after the industrial revolution that the rest of the world might as well have been unchanging compared to it. Like comparing linear growth with exponential growth. But this leads to people making factual mistakes like saying Chinese science was always lagging with few inventions although for most of history this was not exactly true. The real question that should be asked is what are the reasons for the industrial revolution. I don’t think it is purely due to racial and cultural differences. Institutional and historical factors probably play quite a big role.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  231. Erebus says:
    @Another Realist
    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. The reality is both China and India are over populated countries mired in their ancient cultures that encourage endemic corruption. It's been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    Indians are further hobbled by their propensity for violence.

    Would modern infrastructure drag a people out of their ancient cultures and send them into the modern age? The late Samuel Huntington discussed this fine point in his excellent book Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. Huntington pointed out that countries can be modernized without being westernized. Singapore and Japan for instance, are both modernized, but Singapore is a lot more westernized than Japan. Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    By nature the Japanese are very much like the English, law abiding, civic minded, polite. The Chinese are more like Italians, breaking the law when they can get away with it, every man for himself, dog eat dog, rude and loud. Since 70% of Singapore's inhabitants are Chinese, Lee Kuan Yew set out to rid the Chinese of their bad cultural norms by adopting English as the lingua franca and primary language of instruction. He then set up a corruption free government by first paying his cabinet members high salaries to prevent them from being enticed by graft, made every government employee wear a name tag and encourage all citizens to report any government employee that solicits bribe in any way. By such draconian measures he was able to rid the Chinese in Singapore of their propensity for corruption.

    China seeks to emulate Singapore without adopting the two most salient features instituted by Lee Kuan Yew - adoption of English as a primary language of instruction, and paying the cabinet members high enough salaries to prevent them from succumbing to bribes. The president of China makes only US$26,000 a year, that is a joke compared to cabinet members of Singapore who each make US$700,000 a year. That's why China will not be the next Singapore, it will instead become another Malaysia or Russia, mired in corruption and unable to escape the middle income trap. As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption. Corruption will eventually bring down the CPC and China, as it has brought down every single Chinese dynasty throughout its history. Unchecked power always corrupts.

    India is hopeless. It won't even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.

    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do.

    Fear no longer. There are many aspects of “Chinese characteristics” that I see as major obstacles to their being able to hang on to their successes for very long.
    China’s challenges are daunting, but they are for just about all of us. Will it eventually fall, even assuming it meets those challenges? Of course it will.

    It’s been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    I’ve heard that from both Chinese and Indian businessmen. That’s why the CPC gets support, and why most other governments in the world don’t. The US Congress has a what, 11% approval rating? Taking the money and getting nothing (or worse) done is at least part of the reason why Americans feel that way about their govt. Most Chinese corruption is quite innocuous, like tax accountants taking a ¥500 case of HongJiu (red wine) when she visits the tax office with clients’ statements as a “courtesy”. The national govt has been on an anti-corruption drive that has caught some big fish. The guilty get a pretty rude, well publicized comeuppance, and it’s having an effect.

    Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    You’ve got to be kidding, at least when it comes to Japan. As for Singapore, now that Lee Kuan Yew is gone, we’ll see what happens. I’m a big fan of Singapore, and especially of Lee, but my guess is it’ll slowly lose sight of his vision and Chinese characteristics will rise again.

    As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption.

    It’s not the corruption that I see as the main issue with the language. Corruption extends across cultures and languages so ubiquitously that one might view as a part of human nature. Rather, I see a number of systemic/structural issues with Pudonghua (Mandarin) that are impacting Chinese development and I think will continue to. That would require a rather long treatise to explicate, and this is hardly the place for it.
    Parenthetically, I read somewhere long ago that Mao proposed to get rid of the Chinese characters because he saw the limitations they posed. A traditionalist camp apparently forced him to compromise at the combination of Simplified Chinese and PinYin (Latin transliteration), though the latter was not officially adopted until 1979. No idea how true all that is, but PinYin, left alone, would have solved a lot of issues for China. Chinese children learn their ABCs in learning PinYin before moving on to characters and it seems to me it would be much more efficient to stop there and go on to Physics and Chemistry etc. Furthermore, PingYin is simple and purely phonetic, so would be vastly more transportable across linguistic divides.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    Getting rid of Chinese hieroglyphs would be very difficult considering vast number of dialects there with the only way to understand each other is via all of the population speaking Potonghua or said Chinese characters. For me once was much easier to read in characters than in pinying. I had huge problem in the beginning to understand even the closest to dongbei dialect that of Sichuan. Guangdonghua was like another language. It would be interesting to read your opinion about Potonghua impacting China further development even in short form.
    , @wrd9
    The majority of Chinese corruption is certainly not innocuous.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety_incidents_in_China

    About 80,000 dams have been built in China since 1949, 3,000 collapsed by 1980 including one that killed almost 200,000.

    Then there is "tofu construction".

    https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/19/more-tofu-buildings-string-of-collapses-causes-alarm-in-china/

    And pervasive scientific fraud.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628910-300-fraud-fighter-faked-research-is-endemic-in-china/
    https://www.sciencealert.com/80-of-the-data-in-chinese-clinical-trial-is-fabricated
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/world/asia/china-science-fraud-scandals.html

    And one of the crimes that the Chinese do in the West.

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/icbc-spain/

    A New Yorker article about Abacus bank was illuminating about how much tax evasion occurs in the Chinese community in NYC.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/12/the-accused-jiayang-fan

    China will not be able to maintain success unless it eradicates corruption. Whether China can replicate Hong Kong's success will be doubtful as they are not implementing the same policy of education of the young along with punishment. And there are many beachheads of corrupt Chinese located across the world.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  232. @Sergey Krieger
    I was not talking help, although it was :) Look, by doing what USA did it created huge competition and basically was major contributor to China rise. The underlying cause was greed to make more by transferring manufacturing to countries with lax labor laws and cheap labor. By doing this USA elites effectively destroyed own country long term prospects and helped China rise. Isn't it plain as a day? Who in right mind would do that unless completely blinded by greed.

    want me to quote you? cause I can quote you directly from this comment chain? :) I usually don’t do that to people I take seriously since I expect them to be consistent. :)

    it was simply a transaction.

    cold war ally + profits, a mix of both. the miscalculation was that usa didn’t expect the chinese engine to rev up that fast :) agrarian country overtaking the usa’s #1 post world war economy? dream on. I can understand that train of thought. and you really need to check out the usa manufacturing numbers, usa didn’t lose anything to china, it just got more efficient at it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Erebus

    ... check out the usa manufacturing numbers, usa didn’t lose anything to china, it just got more efficient at it.
     
    On an absolute basis, that's pretty close to the truth, although it has pretty much flat-lined since the GFC. On a percentage of GDP basis, not even close, but that's true of almost every country.
    The big crash is mfg output vs mfg employment. Here things get a little more complicated. Automation plays an increasing role, but America "just got more efficient at it" largely by transitioning from primary mfg to final assembly of increasingly complex and integrated imported components. That is what accounts for the drastic drop in mfg employment starting at the time China joined the WTO. Pull those imported components out of the stats and you see that real output tracks employment fairly closely. That is, it shrinks dramatically.
    , @Sergey Krieger
    I am nothing but consistent. My train of thought is going in same direction it is yours that seems is going off the rails.
    When it comes to USA you really cannot expect them to think more than one step ahead, don't you?
    Clearly they did not expect this. Regarding USA manufacturing numbers. It can be done of course but you do not have to because it is quite obvious in terms of the modern composition of USA labor force, state of US cities, infrastructure and shelves in stores. USA now and in 1970 is most probably different nations and so is China of course. There is no big secret. Of course USA would not move car, plane manufacturing to China. Those were less important goods, but the whole arrangement allowed China to start getting serious funds which otherwise China would not get to use them in building up own industries while whatever is produced now in China is not produced anymore in USA.
    Still cannot catch my train of thought?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  233. @Sergey Krieger
    And who helped China to build her first modern manufacturing base? Who trained Chinese engineers and also helped in the beginning with development of the Bomb? USSR. Again, do you really believe China would have been where it is now without it and what followed later as investement s and as you say business deals from the West? I have serious doubts.

    haha, so you are saying instead of mao, it was soviet russia that (help)built china’s foundation?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split

    In 1954, Nikita Khrushchev used trade agreements to improve the USSR’s relations with the Peoples’ Republic of China, acknowledged Stalin’s economic unfairness to China, and negotiated for the USSR to fund fifteen industrial projects, and mutual exchanges of technicians.[9] The trade agreements exchanged economic specialists (ca. 10,000 by 1960) and political advisors (ca. 1,500); and the PRC sent labourers to reduce the shortage of workers in Siberia

    In 1959, Premier Khrushchev met with U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower (1953–61) to decrease tensions with the West. To that end, the USSR had reneged an agreement to provide technical aid for the development of a Chicom nuclear weapon

    everyone got something out of it, please don’t use something as naive as “help” :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    Yes, it is cold hard fact that USSR not only helped to build Chinese industrial foundation, but also MIC foundation and yes started the whole process of giving China nuclear weapon along with the whole industrial foundation to do so. It was due relations finally falling apart that the whole process was not finished but a lot of job on that path was done. Regarding not fair trade arrangements you really have interesting view of what is fair and what is not. Unlike later Soviet leaders who did not care to give away resources taken form Soviet people , Stalin did care. Hence all agreements were set to have USSR compensated but in fair manner. Like giving credit with 1% annual interest. and having small profit for essentially helping China to become industrial power. It was done by the way when USSR was basically just out of WW2 with almost all of Europe territory requiring a lot of attention. Nobody ever was as generous with USSR or Russia. Not to be forgotten the fact that USSR by destroying Kwantung army created conditions and helped Mao to build up his forces in Manchuria for later victory over Guomingdang.
    Of course it was all repaid later in 1969. So please do not talk fairness.

    Here some good reading including nuclear wepaons:

    https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://statehistory.ru/2078/Istoriya-sotrudnichestva-SSSR-i-Kitaya-v-sfere-yadernykh-tekhnologiy/&prev=search

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  234. @silviosilver
    You should be apologizing for posting the drivel that is this article.

    I don't know what game you're playing by publishing these demented lefties, with whom I'm nigh on certain you don't even remotely agree.

    You're a smart guy, so I trust you know what you're doing. I just hope it's something laudable rather than insidious.

    Well, perhaps you can start a website the reposts Rush Limbaugh’s or Mark Levine’s world views.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  235. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @lucidian
    No culture is without its warts, without its dark side. But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.

    Actually, no other culture in the history of the world has done more harm to humanity than Western Europe.

    You should read non western view points before you make such ignorant statements.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    And no other culture has done more good.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  236. Vidi says:
    @jbwilson24
    You just disqualified yourself from invoking machine learning. You obviously have no idea how many humans it takes to keep machine learning applications running.

    The great irony is that you Asia pumpers seem to have forgotten a lot of the lessons that have already been learned. Top-down command and control economies don't work, for a variety of reasons. Adding 'machine learning' and other forms of decision making won't change that. The failure of cybernetics and operations research when applied to urban systems is but one example of a legacy that Asians seem spectacularly poor at discovering.

    The great irony is that you Asia pumpers seem to have forgotten a lot of the lessons that have already been learned. Top-down command and control economies don’t work, for a variety of reasons.

    Purely top-down economies may be too rigid to work well. Purely bottom-up economies tend to lack foresight and probably will also fail in the longer run. Somewhere in the middle, some mixture of top-down (socialism) and bottom-up (capitalism), is probably the sweet spot. This is what China has.

    I think that foresight, long-term planning, strategy — call it what you will — is most important, so the socialist part should predominate. As it does in China.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  237. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    want me to quote you? cause I can quote you directly from this comment chain? :) I usually don't do that to people I take seriously since I expect them to be consistent. :)

    it was simply a transaction.

    cold war ally + profits, a mix of both. the miscalculation was that usa didn't expect the chinese engine to rev up that fast :) agrarian country overtaking the usa's #1 post world war economy? dream on. I can understand that train of thought. and you really need to check out the usa manufacturing numbers, usa didn't lose anything to china, it just got more efficient at it.

    … check out the usa manufacturing numbers, usa didn’t lose anything to china, it just got more efficient at it.

    On an absolute basis, that’s pretty close to the truth, although it has pretty much flat-lined since the GFC. On a percentage of GDP basis, not even close, but that’s true of almost every country.
    The big crash is mfg output vs mfg employment. Here things get a little more complicated. Automation plays an increasing role, but America “just got more efficient at it” largely by transitioning from primary mfg to final assembly of increasingly complex and integrated imported components. That is what accounts for the drastic drop in mfg employment starting at the time China joined the WTO. Pull those imported components out of the stats and you see that real output tracks employment fairly closely. That is, it shrinks dramatically.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    The big crash is mfg output vs mfg employment.
     
    I attribute this to technology. china is just the perfect scapegoat. and even china doesn't make the parts, it just assemble them, like you stated. the best example I can think of is iPhone. so, your argument falls flat, sort of.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  238. @jacques sheete

    OK, so am I to believe that Hitler’s MEIN KAMPF was about “I love everyone”?

     

    OK, so am I to believe that you know anything but the mythology of Hitler and Mein Kampf?

    Here you go; disabuse yerself of some foolishness...

    “… this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth.

    If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler's Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions…”

    Murray Rothbard, Revisionism for Our Time
    Mr. Rothbard was an American Jew and an historian of the very highest caliber.
    http://mises.org/daily/2592

     

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  239. Miro23 says:
    @Avery
    You are correct about now.

    But some decades ago, as US - well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists - started transferring America's manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America's manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America's workers and middle class were the loser.

    Globalist corporations were the winners, in that their costs were lowered greatly: Chinese employees were paid pittance; there were hardly any regulations as hours worked and such*; no visits from OSHA,......

    So, yeah: what I wrote above holds true, as far as China (...and Japan, and SK) getting a head-start thanks to America.

    {Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction.}

    Right, with qualifications.
    1) don't know about the date, so won't challenge it
    2) to whom has that wealth flow been to? certainly not to the American middle class or workers. US middle class is slowly but surely disappearing. we are becoming a nation of rich and poor, with a missing middle class.

    And at some point in the future, as Chinese learn from the flow of technology from US to China, they will no longer need US, and Americans will be the paupers......
    __________________
    * I am sure you have heard about the worker suicides at e.g. Foxconn (Apple's sub).

    But some decades ago, as US – well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists – started transferring America’s manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America’s manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America’s workers and middle class were the loser.
    Globalist corporations were the winners, in that their costs were lowered greatly: Chinese employees were paid pittance; there were hardly any regulations as hours worked and such*; no visits from OSHA,……

    It seems that there were a confluence of factors needed to make this happen in the US, China and in technology:

    UNITED STATES – By the early 1980′s the Neoliberal zeitgeist was the received wisdom of academia. The ideas were that “Everyone gained from world trade and specialization”, “Outsourcing freed up US labour for retraining in high tech sectors”, “the US was an advanced Post Industrial services economy”, “self interest benefited everyone” (Greed is Good). It was also the time of financial deregulation, allowing debt to keep up spending and replace employment income lost to China.
    Corporate (and other) Special Interests took over the US political process typified by the Clintons, accompanied by the collapse of civic society with Citizens being replaced by atomized Consumers addicted to very low priced products impossible to manufacture in the US.

    CHINA – In contrast to US leadership, Chinese leadership had national development plans designed to benefit the whole of society, Deng Xiaoping (“Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” – in other words National Socialism) centered around technical education, export led industrial development (making up for the lack of domestic demand) and following the earlier successful Japanese example. Necessary infrastructure was developed (ports, roads, communications) to build a Singapore style society ready to accommodate Western outsourcers needs – while acquiring their technology. The corollary was a non-conflictive foreign policy (other than Chinese issues like Hong Kong and Taiwan) with a focus on trade rather than war.

    TECHNOLOGY – The internet provided unprecedented possibilities for the control of international production, logistics and integration of demand/supply, fully exploited by US outsourcers and Chinese manufacturers.

    Andy Grove (ex CEO of Intel) was aware of the problem and wrote a fine article about it “How America can Create Jobs” (2010) http://www.openvms.org/http%3A//www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-07-01/andy-grove-how-america-can-create-jobs , which was predictably buried.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  240. @Astuteobservor II
    want me to quote you? cause I can quote you directly from this comment chain? :) I usually don't do that to people I take seriously since I expect them to be consistent. :)

    it was simply a transaction.

    cold war ally + profits, a mix of both. the miscalculation was that usa didn't expect the chinese engine to rev up that fast :) agrarian country overtaking the usa's #1 post world war economy? dream on. I can understand that train of thought. and you really need to check out the usa manufacturing numbers, usa didn't lose anything to china, it just got more efficient at it.

    I am nothing but consistent. My train of thought is going in same direction it is yours that seems is going off the rails.
    When it comes to USA you really cannot expect them to think more than one step ahead, don’t you?
    Clearly they did not expect this. Regarding USA manufacturing numbers. It can be done of course but you do not have to because it is quite obvious in terms of the modern composition of USA labor force, state of US cities, infrastructure and shelves in stores. USA now and in 1970 is most probably different nations and so is China of course. There is no big secret. Of course USA would not move car, plane manufacturing to China. Those were less important goods, but the whole arrangement allowed China to start getting serious funds which otherwise China would not get to use them in building up own industries while whatever is produced now in China is not produced anymore in USA.
    Still cannot catch my train of thought?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More...