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In order to understand China and how the world works, I am very lucky to have lived here during two very different time periods. It started 1990-1997. In the first book of The China Trilogy, 44 Days Backpacking in China, I called this period the Wild East Deng Xiaoping Buckaroo Days. It was intense, crazy and addictive at the same time. I commented that it was like a “Nat King Cole five-pack-day nicotine habit”. I knew it was bad for me, but I just couldn’t get enough of it.

Then, after five years in less and less socialist France and nine years in libertarian capitalist Bush-O-Bomb-America, I came back to China, where I have continued to live since 2010. Having these four different and very unique experiences, spanning 28 years has radically transformed my outlook on humanity, history, economics, geopolitics and the future – while making me much, much wiser.

Having been here so long, I can get inured to China’s civilizational transformation, evolution and warp speed progress. Every once in a while, I have to slap myself in the face and realize just how lucky I am to witness history being made in real time. Over the years, I have been in certain parts of a city or area, then gone back after several weeks or months, and a completely new development or infrastructure project, even an entire suburban neighborhood has sprouted up out of green land. Ho-hum. Another day in China. Creative, hi-tech and mega-engineering projects like the following can become blasé in Sinoland:

To these you can add visionary and daring architecture, stunning skylines, parks, bridges, airports, train/bus stations and ferry terminals, and engineering feats of marvel seen nowhere else on earth. A good example is Shenzhen’s new ferry terminal. It is designed to look like a giant blue and white manta ray jumping out of the water. You can see it from about 45-60s in the first video below, then later at night, during the 2-minute clip, which was fast filmed to show off the city’s harbor area, Shekou:

Western capitalism is simply unable to build a country and a society like this. But communist-socialist China can, does and will continue to so.

Euranglolanders have a painful time wrapping their ideologies and paradigms around the irrefutable, long-term success of China’s evolving communist system, since 1949. Yes, since 1949, with (OMG!) the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution and all that, which is fully covered in the next two books in The China Trilogy. Without the Mao Era, I would be living in and writing about another Indonesia, Columbia or Libya. It’s that simple.

If you think I’m some kind of scintillating genius who figured this out in my mother’s womb, I humbly demur. Even after ten years in Africa and Middle East, 1980-1990 and continuing through the rest of my aforementioned itinerations across our Pale Blue Dot, it wasn’t until I came back here in 2010, then traveling 12,500 kilometers around this country in 2012 to write 44 Days Backpacking in China, that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

I grew up in Oklahoma, USA, ground zero for God, guns, gays and the sanctity of unfettered individualism and jungle capitalism: cowboys, cattle, wheat, churches and oil wells, all gleefully stolen from exterminated Natives. The whole process of getting to my current informed and enlightened awareness was akin to climbing an arduous summit, with a howling occidental hurricane blowing against my face. This is why I am so patient with friends, family, colleagues and strangers, when talking about their convictions and beliefs about how humanity works. With all due respect, most of them are still at base camp, at the bottom of that propaganda mountain, which is no fault of their own. They all grew up behind the Great Western Firewall and are just as brainwashed as I was for about 55- of my 63-year life.

This short clip is a wonderful metaphor for everything I was taught about Western racial, cultural, moral and socioeconomic superiority, while growing up in the United States:

Which brings us to a small, but revealing vignette into China’s communist-socialist system of governance.

Fintech is one of the most exciting, cutting edge 21st century sectors to develop in the last decade. Blockchain and bitcoin are manifestations of fintech. Imperial Westerners, feeling inherently racially superior in every way to the non-White world, just assumed they would take on this mantle, as they have for the last 500 years. My oh my, Buford, how times have changed in a hurry. Commie Baba Beijing, China’s leadership, had a better idea. With its Leninist Five-Year Plans, Democratic Centralism and People’s Dictatorship (I know it jars the eyes, but I explain all this in Trilogy book #3, China Is Communit, Dammit!), China mapped out strategies, budgets and resources to become the world’s fintech leader. Presto! Just like that, Shenzhen, where I live and write is now the fintech capital of the known universe.

Then, last week I saw this article about Baba Beijing’s plans for Shenzhen Fintech v2.0. It’s not long, read it. It’s breathtaking. Shenzhen’s government is going to completely transform a neighborhood, Sunguan, from old economy consumer goods logistics to 21st century fintech. The last paragraph states:

It has been reported that six super-high skyscrapers, such as the 739-meter-tall H700 Shenzhen Tower and a new 600-meter-plus Kingkey Oriental Regent Hotel, will rise up in Sungang in the next five years.

Seven super-high skyscrapers in Shenzhen in the next five years. Let that sink in for a long, thoughtful minute. During your reflection, the imperial-capitalist West will have bombed, massacred, starved and sanctioned untold numbers of poor, defenseless people around the world. Can the contrast be any starker?

In June, 2017, an instructive meeting took place between California Governor Jerry Brown and Chinese President Xi Jinping. While talking about climate change, the topic of high speed trains (HST) came up. Governor Brown supposedly lamented that his state has not been able to build even one puny HST line, since his governor-father began pushing for it back in the 1950s.

Why? While China is zeroing in on 30,000km of HST track, more than the rest of the world combined, along with hundreds of architecturally inspiring train stations to serve them, California has 2,000 lawsuits fighting its proposal. Why? Greedy capitalists and their purchased government employees and representatives are fighting each other for the loot, like cannibals in a kill pit of corruption, while selfish citizens are putting their individual interests ahead of the greater good. The latter is called NIMBY, Not in My Backyard.

In the West, NIMBY is worn like a badge of honor to express Euranglolanders’ sense of freedom and independence. Meanwhile, with communism-socialism’s mantra of harmony, sharing, cooperation and stability for the greater good, the Chinese are laughing all the way to a much higher standard of living and better quality of life.

Western capitalism talks and Chinese communism-socialism walks – no it flies at 350 kilometers per hour in a bullet train.

But I digress. Back to fintech… I can hear the dialogue now,

Yeah, Jeff, but most of these Chinese fintech outfits are private sector, so they are capitalist, right?

Not when they work in a centrally planned country with no private real estate and the top 100 industrial sectors are fully or majority people owned, including banks and insurance companies. Why is Jack Ma so rich and his company, Alibaba so successful? Because Baba Beijing mapped it all out for him, provided a stable economic system, protected his markets and early on offered subsidies with which he could prosper. Jack Ma is a communist-socialist capitalist (weird, I know). He says things like, Today, making money is very simple. But making sustainable money while being responsible to society and improving the world is very difficult. The last Western capitalists I heard talk like that were the founders of Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream and those fake hippies sold out to transnational behemoth Unilever for a cool $326 million in 2000. So much for being responsible to society and improving the world.

Gosh, Jeff, how can Baba Beijing help its business sector like that?

After 1949’s communist liberation, China kicked out all the imperial, colonial Western capitalists, bankers and military. It also eliminated or reformed traitorous local elites, who, for a few bourgeois baubles, would have happily turned China into another strip mined, enslaved, occupied “American ally”, in the Orwellian “Rules-Based International Order” (sic ).

Really, Jeff? How did the Chinese pull that off?

The Chinese people can thank Mao Zedong for his visionary leadership over a communist system of governance and socioeconomics, from 1949-1978.

But Jeff, it was Deng Xiaoping’s reforms and opening up that brought prosperity to the Chinese people, not Mao.

That’s only the second half of the real story. It was Mao’s record breaking foundation building in infrastructure, agriculture, industry, technology, education and New China’s socioeconomic transformation that made possible Deng’s grand dreams of a wealthy communist China. Otherwise, they would have never even gotten one centimeter off the ground . That’s why I call it communism-socialism. Europe’s socialism, what’s left of it, is based on capitalism. Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is the official term used by Baba Beijing and its 1.4 billion citizens. It’s the evolution and adaptation of Deng-Jiang-Hu-Xi socialism built on a mantle-thick bedrock of Maoist communism.

Jeff, I don’t like what I am hearing. My head is spinning and I’ve got a woozy feeling in my belly. That’s not what I was taught and learned all my life. I got a great K-12 education and graduated from college. I’m really well informed. I religiously read the Economist, the New York Times, the Guardian and watch MSNBC, BBC and PBS. You are making me suffer debilitating cognitive dissonance. I think you are wrong. In fact, I think you are full red and yellow shit. PLEASE STOP WRITING RIGHT NOW – PLEASE – THIS INSTANT!

(Taking a thoughtful, patient breath) I understand how you feel and am full of empathy for where you are in the journey of life. I was high fiving with people just like you, until about seven years ago. Please take advantage of all my experiences. If you are willing to challenge yourself, think outside of the box and expand your horizons, may I suggest reading The China Trilogy? It will give you the courage and the optics to see history and current events differently, in contrast to all the 24/7 brainwashing propaganda behind the Great Western Firewall. It is also much cheaper than borrowing a student loan and getting a mainstream diploma. If you read The China Trilogy , I promise you will understand how your world works and where you are headed.

Let’s call it a day on a high note, shall we? Blues guitar great Freddie King did not realize it, but in the song below, he is a great allegory for the capitalist West, which is battling communist-socialist China on the world stage. I close the geo-cultural circle here. An Oklahoma boy in China posts an American blues song as a geopolitical allegory. It was produced by my fellow Oklahoman Leon Russell and sung by a child of America’s colonial slave trade. Got that? We’ve got Leon pounding fury on the 88’s, fellow Oklahoman Chuck Blackwell banging on the drums and Donald “Duck” Dunn riffing large on the bass guitar. What more could you ask for? Take it away, FREDDY!

(Republished from China Rising by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. Vidi says:

    Great, this thread is back! I’m glad as I think Jeff wrote a good article. Looks like there was a crash and all the previous comments were lost. I’ll try to recreate mine, as I think they made some decent points.

    Why? While China is zeroing in on 30,000km of HST track, more than the rest of the world combined, along with hundreds of architecturally inspiring train stations to serve them, California has 2,000 lawsuits fighting its proposal. Why? Greedy capitalists and their purchased government employees and representatives are fighting each other for the loot, like cannibals in a kill pit of corruption, while selfish citizens are putting their individual interests ahead of the greater good. The latter is called NIMBY, Not in My Backyard.

    Many Westerners (and Indians) probably think that China starts a megapoject by bulldozing people off the land and leaving them destitute. That is not the case at all, but I am not surprised that the Western media fails to be entirely truthful.

    It is true that people are displaced, but what the Western propaganda carefully does not say is that the Chinese government builds new, free housing for these people and generally leaves them better off. Thus there really wasn’t much resistance from those who had to make way for the Three Gorges dam. Similarly, during the building frenzy in Beijing in 2007-8, just before the Olympics, people were actually hoping to be the next to be moved out for a new stadium or road.

    Occasionally, a corrupt official will basically steal the land, but this is the exception, not the rule.

  2. Ron Unz says:

    Almost all earlier comments were lost in Monday’s server crash. My sincerest apologies.

  3. Having lots of high-IQ people who tinker and can do physics and engineering makes transformational industrious feasible.

  4. I was watching a program on space exploration and it stated that after the wind down of Apollo, Nixon had a choice of a cheaper Space Shuttle vs. an expensive Mars mission to keep NASA going. I think that after Trump builds the wall, kicks out the illegals, makes Puerto Rico independent, we might have some funds to try going in that direction. Of course, I will predict that like in the 1960s, all the African-American “leaders” will complain that their “human needs” come first.

    • Replies: @Joseph Moroco
  5. China has figured out the “crony capitalism” of the west. They have also figured out the fiat money scheme of the west, which is why they have been accumulating gold for decades. Capitalism is not to blame, it is the governments that have taken over the market place with fiat money, welfare state debts and regulations that is to blame for the west’s current condition. To the extent that China (and Russia and others) lets the markets be free they will succeed. Let us hope they eschew crony banking and go to a gold/silver/commodity backed currency, and then stand back and let the world advance. But first the present world economy must perish.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  6. Erebus says:

    My first experience of China was sometime in 1990, and I visited often and then finally gave up on it. My 1st visa restricted my movement to designated parts of Shenzhen, and there were checkpoints all over the city. On my 2nd or 3rd visit, I was allowed to go to Guangzhou by train – a 4-5 hour ride on what must have been a WW2 era train with every imaginable sort of passenger including 4-legged. By 1992-ish I figured it would take generations for China to climb out of the hole they were in.

    Tried India instead and had somewhat better luck there. They weren’t in as deep a hole, or so it seemed, and it was far easier to communicate. The bureaucracy, however, was noticeably more obtuse, and delighted in foisting impenetrable documentary requirements on anyone who would dare to export. Importing was even worse, even smoothed over by the customary bribes.

    I had occasion to revisit China in the later ’90s and was stunned to see where less than a decade of development had taken it. Still in a hole, but one could see it wasn’t going to take “generations” to climb out. A critical mass had been reached. The energy level was addictive. Everybody was an entrepreneur, and going hard at it. Nothing was easy, but suddenly everything was possible.

    China turned on the after-burners when it joined the WTO in 2001 and what it is today is several generations ahead of what it was in 2000, and adding a Spain every year.
    The 1990s China is still visible, the ugly, ultra plain, utilitarian factories and apartment buildings are still standing in pockets and 2nd-3rd tier cities, but even that is disappearing fast. 20 yr old buildings built at a time of frenetic expansion aged even less gracefully than they were built, and are coming down in massive re-development schemes at a rate that beggars belief.

    Meanwhile India, socio-economically at least, is still pretty much where it was in the early ’90s. What’s the difference? Why was China, speaking almost no English, coming out from under an even more closed, oppressive system, and behind India & Pakistan on a GDP(PPP)/ca basis in 1990, so much more successful? I gotta believe that the answer is largely Governance.

    Since the Song Dynasty, Governance has been the highest of high arts in the Chinese pantheon. The civil service attracts the best of the best, and the best of those are nurtured through the system to become mayors, county & provincial governors, and finally in the national government after a career of proving themselves. What’s the criteria for a politician? To a very large extent it comes down to how pleased the people living in the area are with the job he’s done. Local governments seem to do an enormous amount of polling to stay on top of what people like and don’t like about their communities. There’s usually a comment box asking you to grade the performance of every gov counter worker from the Immigration official who looks at your passport when you enter, to the police station, to the tax office, to the hospital admittance desk. That works, because if the governor/mayor/village leader/counter worker is at all ambitious, getting the people what they want is how they get graded and move up the food chain.

    LaoTzu’s idea that the ideal ruler is the one nobody notices while great things happen apparently of their own accord seems to have been the guiding principle that BaBa Beijing et al follow. Hi-speed rails criss-cross the country, railway stations, airports, seaports, highways, hospitals pop up out of the ground like mushrooms, while Australian beef, Danish cheeses, Thai curries and French wines suddenly fill the shelves. One wonders where the hell they all came from, but there they are, and once there they seem to have always been there. A people who couldn’t leave the country a couple decades ago, are now the world’s greatest tourists, and there’s demand for the things they found attractive in their travels. To have guided this astonishing development with so little error is itself astonishing. To be sure, there’s plenty of disconnects and slippage, but in the grand scheme it’s just background noise. The signal overpowers it with ease.

    At the time of the 1st Opium War, China was 33% of the world economy, trading places with India for #1 spot for 2000 yrs. It all fell apart for both of them in the 1800s. Ancient, agrarian/artisan, politically decadent cultures ran up against industrial powers that had it all over them. Having re-tooled their culture for the 21st century, the Chinese are on their way to getting back to their natural position. India needs to re-tool as well, but I see no Mao or Deng on their horizon. Meanwhile, the West is in the process of de-tooling its culture, perhaps on its way back to being agrarian/artisan again. It’s gonna be a strange century, methinks.

  7. Max Payne says:

    As someone who has to visit the cesspool that is the PRC regularly I can say one thing….

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders…. but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially… but… it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.

    Regardless… whenever I hear someone talking about how they are learning French or German or Spanish I always tell them “learn Mandarin, everything else won’t matter”.

    • Replies: @Jeff J. Brown
    , @denk
    , @denk
  8. Vidi says:

    They may have achieved technological and engineering wonders…. but their social etiquette is still savage at best. Sure people spitting in elevators is much less and mothers holding babies over trash cans to relieve themselves has decreased substantially… but… it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.

    When did Europeans stop throwing buckets of shit on the streets? Exito!

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @Rdm
  9. Thanks, Ron, for running this. I just found the article, been terribly busy. I’ll join into the new thread when you republish today.

    Best from Jeff in China

    • Replies: @upsidedown
  10. @Max Payne

    Seriously, Max, your racism is over the top.

    I know Brits who talk about the Irish the way you talk about the Chinese. So, I guess that makes me a monkey too:

    http://chinarising.puntopress.com/2015/10/01/slavs-and-the-yellow-peril-are-niggers-brutes-and-beasts-in-the-eyes-of-western-empire-the-saker-44-days-radio-sinoland-2015-10-1/

    Jeff J. Brown in China

  11. @Erebus

    Hear, hear, Erebus, a true man of letters and knowledge!

    When are we going to get together for that long considered double date dinner?

    Jeff in China

  12. How Can Western Capitalism Beat [1.4 billion 103 Average IQ Chinese Capitalism]?
    That’s the Rub, It Can’t

    Fixed.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @JosephB
  13. wayfarer says:

    Tibet China Conflict: Religion and the Cultural Revolution

    Tibet Situation: Critical

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Vidi
    , @Joe Wong
    , @Lin
  14. then traveling 12,500 kilometers around this country in 2012 to write 44 Days Backpacking in China, that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

    What are you talking about? The West is under the rule of PC. This damn PC teaches white people that they suck. Google-search for top US scientists and you get some Negro who invented Peanut Butter and other blacks.
    PC says West has no right to moral pride… except in spreading homos and ‘white guilt’ and sucking up to Jews and Negroes and celebrating Diversity.
    Also, when it comes to ‘creativity’, we are told that white people are bland and generic. It’s the Negroes who be ‘creative’ and shi* because they come up with ‘twerking’ and wearing pants low and nursery-rhyming F-bombs.
    And we are told we need MASS IMMIGRATION from Asia because white people suck at math and etc. So, we need Asians to do all the brainy work.

    China during Mao was also failing because of its own PC. Mao could have combined best of Chinese culture and tradition with modernity and industrialization; instead, he waged war on Chinese tradition and culture. He destroyed Chinese society and then let loose the Red Guards or Tards to wreck all of China and drive intellectuals to suicide or to pig farms to clean pig poo.
    Chiang Kai Shek wanted to preserve the best of traditional China while implementing reforms and modernization borrowed from the West. He revered both Confucius and Jesus, and he understood the need for modernization.
    But Mao waged war on Chinese culture and then took only the worst aspects of Western Thought: the ideology of radical self-righteous hatred. His idea of modernization made no sense, destroying much of China during the Great Leap Forward and killing tens of millions.

    So, when did China begin to recover? It was after Mao, and what was the proper formula? It was neo-fascism though the Chinese elites never called it that.
    Fascism is about the integration of various -isms and modes. Instead of seeing them as hopeless opposites or diehard contradictions, they were seen as complementary, mutually interdependent, and integral to the whole.
    So, by the rules of fascism, modernity need not smash all of tradition as ‘reactionary’. Socialism didn’t mean all of capitalism had to be suppressed. Internationalism didn’t mean nationalism was anathema. Rather, nationalisms around the world could be the building block of a mutually respecting international order.

    So, the proper formula for China’s success was nationalism, capitalism, socialism, restoration of some degree of traditionalism, and ethno-centrism. New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.

    The reason for America’s problems in recent times has to do with the fading of white race-ism and American nationalism. When white Americans worked together as a people and identified as a European family, their lives were far more meaningful and their work was far more productive. Such race-ism led to the creation of a magnificent country.

    But look at the current US. Unlike China where the Chinese elites lead the Chinese masses in a spirit of neo-fascism, the US has rule by globalists who despise white Americans and push for greater diversity so that white Americans will be further depressed and even more shamed by PC as the scourge of humanity. White Americans are a subject people, like Hindus under the British or Chinese under Manchu domination.

    The Chinese way is like the Zionist way. (Zionist nationalism in Israel is good. Zionist imperialism in West Bank and Wars for Israel is not good.) Yes, socialism is a part of China’s rise, but not the Maoist kind. It’s socialism mixed with capitalism in the spirit of nationalism. It’s called neo-fascism.

    Granted, one good thing about the communist legacy is this. Though communism was a disaster — Maoism esp sucked –, it did instill the Chinese with a sense of dignity for the common man. So, the neo-fascism of China has a humanist basis, and that has prevented Chinese from becoming too arrogant and chauvinistic.

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of ‘Aryan’ superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.
    One good thing about communism was it taught Chinese to accept being human than trying to be god-like.

  15. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Priss Factor

    New China managed itself as a gigantic Israel, the blood-and-soil neo-fascist democracy premised on ethnic identity and unity and pragmatic reconciliation of socialism and capitalism.

    Except that China doesn’t practice ethnonationalism – and its a “crime against the nation” to engage in praise of Han as a race(“Han chauvinism” is the exact crime), one that isn’t prosecuted very often but it is pretty clear what is the government’s position on that: it is just going to inspire fracture. Essentially, its a hate crime if you want to put it in Western terms. Affirmative action is given to minorities as well, to a reasonable extent. Its not Japan.

    That said, you can’t bash the Han and there’s no nothing like Western self-hate, of course.

    Chinese nationalism is a rigorous practice of “civic nationalism”, the type that Unz commentators often tend to ridicule but it clearly works for them. Having an unified philosophy can act much like an unified religion in bringing people together and creating a shared sense of values.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Priss Factor
  16. DB Cooper says:
    @wayfarer

    One of the nutty things Westerners and Indians accused the Chinese is ethnic and religious persecution. Cultural revolution is basically a pretext used by Mao to manipulate himself back into power after Mao being marginalized for almost a decade following the massive famine caused by his Great Leap Forward policy. Mao’s cultural revolution is basically advertised as a wholesale rejection of traditional Chinese culture and include the destruction of many historic relics and temples. Cultural revolution happened all over China including Tibet and has absolutely nothing to do with ethnic and religious persecution. The dishonesty of the Dalai Lama is that he repackaged it into something Westerners and Indians readily understand, and that is ethnic and religious persecution.

  17. Erebus says:
    @Jeff J. Brown

    I don’t think it’s just racism. A large part of what Max is observing is the lag between technological progress and behaviours. You just can’t move cultural norms and behaviours as quickly as you can move mountains and concrete. That really does take generations. One need only read Emile Zola’s Germinal to see how brutal were European living conditions and behaviours at the dawn of their Industrial Revolution.

    In most big cities, especially Shenzhen which didn’t even exist 30 yrs ago, much of the population is non-native. The factories needed workers, millions of them, and they poured out of hinterland villages seeking their fortunes in The Great Urbanization that hasn’t really stopped. These were typically the un-skilled, poorly educated, and coming from the poorest of prospects. That they brought with them the “primitive” norms and behaviours of the dirt poor villages they were raised in shouldn’t surprise anyone. These behaviours tended to actually be reinforced in the factory dormitories and surrounding streets as everyone around the industrial zones was from, and in, the same boat.

    A further point is that, at least earlier in the process, non-native also meant transient. People came to make money to [a] support the family they left behind, and [b] sock enough away to be able to buy/build a house/start a business when they returned to the village. Few people thought they were coming to stay for longer than they had to, and that contributed to the lack of good social behaviour. They had little or no emotional investment or commitment to the place they were working.

    All of that is changing, as Max notes, and it’ll continue to improve over the coming decades.
    OTOH, the professional classes are as well behaved as any anywhere, and as more people rise to those levels, they provide role models for those below them. Like I said, it takes generations.

  18. Vidi says:
    @wayfarer

    The Dalai Lama is a CIA stooge.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html

    (Yes, a citation of an article in the New York Times. The article was published in 1998, when the paper was still somewhat credible, before the total neocon takeover.)

  19. lucidian says:

    China is a third world country. China is a thieving country. The Chinese have ZERO respect for intellectual property. Chinese people, like the Japanese, are obedient, and can be marshaled by their leaders to partake in great projects. But, like the Japanese, they do not invent. They are not a creative people.

    Chinese are well known as the most racist people on the planet. They are not a fair people. They are an aggressive, cold-hearted people.

    China may yet eclipse America, but only because America is intent on destroying itself. Not because China is virtuous. China is a cancer.

    China has ascended in a parasitic way. They have taken advantage of America’s stupidity and kindness and trust. If America regains her pride, and wakes up to the Chinese plunder and puts an end to it, China’s rise will be severely curtailed.

    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    , @Anonymous
  20. @Ron Unz

    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.
    Therefore the dictatorial communist system is bound to disappear.
    I made the comparison with Holland in the 17th century, and Philips II in feudal catholic Spain.
    What we see now in Spain resembles the 17th century clash, I suppose.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    , @Joe Wong
  21. @Priss Factor

    The feeling of grandeur was in 1919 Versailles, where the virtual birth of Hitler was.
    Was not Wilson’s statement ‘war to end al wars’ grandeur ?

  22. @Vidi

    Any culture despises all other cultures.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  23. lucidian says:
    @Jeff J. Brown

    Chinese are well known as the most racist people of all.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  24. I’m old enough to remember an America free enough to get things done, like landing on the moon (or at least doing an outstanding job of faking it, if that be the case). As we have dialed back on freedom to right the injustices and micro-aggressions and privileges that are perceived by some and as we have regulated society more to prevent “predation” by those who do, we have stagnated. China is hardly a beacon of liberty, but they are at least moving in that direction, and that has made all the difference. Yeah, they have dirty air; so did we, and we eventually got over it.

  25. Western Capitalism, if that is what the United States is, means tens of thousands of new regulations each year written by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats who self-select into those jobs by virtue of their psychopathy.

    I have never seen more sadistic, malicious people than petty tyrants in permitting offices, inspector offices, IRS, EPA, OSHA, you name it.

    I have carefully avoided, tried to survive away from these tyrants but still be a private sector producer who has to perform for his customers.

    I’ve tried in some regions of the country, but in my home state you can’t even fix a fence without having to hire a surveyor. Can’t replace a sidewalk pad without an excavation permit. Cannot hire a 15 year old to operate a weed whacker or anybody under 18 for any construction work whatsoever. It is a felony, with all the approbation attached to child labor exploitation. To teach him a trade that can sustain a family for the rest of his life. This is a crime, in the land of the free.

    So yes, of course China could grow at ten percent a year. They won’t jail you for hiring a sixteen year old. She can’t sue you for sexual harassment because you called her “young lady” or some other horror like hearing an off-color joke. No hiring preferences, no equal-opportunity hoops to jump through. No permitting, no infinite and contradictory regulations.

    Politically, in China you keep your mouth shut. Economically, they have a lot more freedom in many ways.

    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  26. @Anatoly Karlin

    Still, they cannot produce top science talent and have been lagging for decades now in military and other technologies. Chinese are intelligent but not That intelligent. Andrei was rightfully dismissive of IQ because it cannot explain how supposedly super smart Chinese and other north eastern Asians cannot produce scientific breakthroughs and there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.

  27. JosephB says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I second Anatoly’s comment. To not bring up cognitive differences in a post of that length is stunning. I’d perhaps tweak Anatoly’s comment to 105 IQ, and also mention China seems intent on not being shamed into importing additional internationally non-competitive workers.

    Singapore will do just fine competing with China, as will South Korea and Japan. I suspect New Zealand and Australia will also hold up quite well.

  28. I wonder how many think Chinese project is sustainable long term considering size of their population and resources limits? They are already drowning in debt and ecological consequences of their growth. Last time I was in China in 2001 the air was dirty I could barely see. I guess it is a lot worse now.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Joe Wong
  29. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    1) The West is not really capitalist. A third of Americans need a government lisence to work. The interest rate is not set by supply and demand but the government agency FED. Taxes are 50% and there are hundreds of thousands of regulations. Also there is government education that has destroyed the capistalist mindset which is probably the worst of all.

    2) Just because the East builds things, does not mean it is beating us. The whole world, but especially China, is sitting on a financial bubble that will expose many of these investments as not productive.

    3) I am happy for the East’s Progress. I don’t care if they beat us. It’s not a race.

    • Replies: @interesting
  30. It’s not so much that Capitalism is failing to maintain pace with “The Chinese Way” – rather, it’s the simple fact that a society and economy that are based on lies will always be at a disadvantage relative to a society and economy that accept reality and deal with it as it is, not as (((some))) might wish it to be.

  31. El Dato says:

    Fintech is one of the most exciting, cutting edge 21st century sectors to develop in the last decade.

    I disagree completely. IMHO it is the lastest hat trick of producing something pretend-productive that basically boils down to flimflammery and jiggling numbers. The idea is to cream off money and leave before the house of cards collapses.

    Creative, hi-tech and mega-engineering projects like the following can become blasé in Sinoland:

    But will they still stand in 12 months and be productively occupied as well as being correctly maintained? If not, it is just a waste of money, brain and time, driven by cheap money bubble economics. And your farmland is gone, too. And the resources you pumped into it, too.

    Positive ROI – a hard constraint. Not as hard as lightspeed, but nearly so.

  32. @Ron Unz

    No apologies necessary. I think I can say that most of us are grateful that we have a forum like this.

  33. Jeff, I’m very sympathetic to your basic argument here–even the Mao part. But why do you have to be so anti-white? Why does it seem that you’re incapable of saying anything positive about China without immediately turning around and attacking your own country and people? Do you really think that’s the best way of getting your message across? If you’re hoping to persuade people in America to improve their country, then you’re more likely to succeed by inspiring them, rather than berating them.

    And why do you think we’re so awful and inferior anyway? Isn’t it true that pretty much all that glitzy new technology the Chinese are implementing was originally invented by us? And what about our glorious Gothic cathedrals and Renaissance master pieces? And isn’t it true that the Chinese themselves are really into our classical, symphonic music? And what about the Enlightenment, and all those stunning breakthroughs in science, mathematics and industry? Now I’m well aware of our limitations and mistakes as a people, but is all of our world-historical achievement really negated by the existence of slavery (in some parts of the West, for a while)?

    Some of us are able to admire and appreciate the dynamic things happening in China without being against our own civilization. Do you think you can learn to walk and chew gum at the same time, too?

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
  34. How Can Western Capitalism Beat This?

    No. And that’s because it’s a plutocratic, oligarchic, militaristic, debt fueled, parasitic, war socialism type of capitalism designed from the start to benefit the few at the expense of the many.

    I know nothing about China, but from what I know about other Asian countries and how the Chinese fare in them, I suspect they employ a somewhat purer and less militaristic type of capitalism there. It likely resembles the the freer capitalism, (minus the militaristic aggression) that characterized that of the US during the 19th century, and which died at the end of that century during the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson, primarily,

    It is now widely understood that the United States in mid twentieth century is a Leviathan Corporate State—a political economy dominated by giant multinational corporations whose extensive domain, operating with the levers of government, extends from the local retail outlet to firms negotiating for rights to explore oil deposits offshore of Saigon.

    But the corporate state…is by no means a new phenomenon. The corporate leviathan began to emerge at the turn of the twentieth century, after an era of substantial laissez-faire had proceeded to industrialize and urbanize the nation

    A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State EDITED BY RONALD RADOSH AND MURRAY N. ROTHBARD,1972, p

    https://mises.org/system/tdf/A%20New%20History%20of%20Leviathan_2.pdf?file=1&type=document

    Let’s hope the same fate doesn’t befall Chinese capitalism.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  35. Che Guava says:
    @Ron Unz

    Thanks for the thought, esteemed host.

    Mine wasn’t an essay, just four points, but only remembering two right now.

  36. Ron Unz says:

    Most readers are probably already aware of this, but a few years ago I published a couple of articles of my own closely related to the subject of this piece. Here are the links:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

  37. Hu Mi Yu says:

    I can’t recall whether I left any comments before the crash, but I was following this thread with interest. I believe I may have met Mr. X. about thirty years ago at an engineering conference. It is also possible it was someone else; I have met other famous people who turned out to be hired actors working for the CIA. Notably I had a private meeting with someone impersonating President Eisenhower when I was ten years old.

    Looking back it seems I was first vetted by at least two Chinese friends about my opinions of China and communism. As it turns out my grandmother was a patriotic flag-waving world war II communist, who was always trying to get people to vote for socialism. This was sufficient to get me through the vetting process.

    We had a long and interesting conversation. Mr. X. said that he was in the same situation. His grandparents were also communists. They knew they had made mistakes, but China is a very traditional country. They couldn’t just turn around and reject Mao they way the Soviets turned on Stalin. We agreed that if a person is conservative, they must accept the government they have. A stable government can only make slow and careful changes to correct the worst problems.

    The people hate us.” Mr. X. said to me.

    At this point the people who debrief me stop and interject something like “You see, they know the people hate them.” Then the interrogation ends abruptly.

    But Mr. X. continued, and they never hear the rest of what he had to say.

    What can we do to make their lives better?” He had asked.

    The conversation turned to Chinese people becoming ill from bad water. He knew America had a method of purifying seawater to make it drinkable. He wanted to know how it was done.

    He didn’t ask me about the military. He didn’t want to steal hi-tech secrets. He only asked me about WWII era American technology that could save millions of lives in China.

    I had had no special clearances. I possessed no secrets in this area, but I knew the term “reverse osmosis.” For decades the technique had already been used to purify water for high school chemistry classes in the US.

    After our conversation was over, one of my Chinese friends told me that Mr. X. was an important communist who had an office in the Forbidden City. It was only a few years later when made-in-China water purifiers began appearing in stores and shopping malls in the US. The magic words “reverse osmosis” were prominently displayed on the front of the machines. For twenty-five cents a gallon I could have all the pure fresh tasting water I wanted. By comparison American tap water tastes like p**s.

    So I find myself wondering how come my government sat on this technology that could not only improve life for American consumers, but save millions of lives in China.

    Chinese leader: “The people hate us. What can we do to make their lives better?

    American leader: “The people hate us. What can we do to hurt them?

    This is the difference between a nation on the way up and a nation on the way down.

  38. mp says:

    I remember sitting in a Starbucks in Shenzhen with a few Chinese businessmen. During happy talk one asked me, “How do you like being in a “police state.” That’s when it hit me. Chinese can do pretty much everything in China that we can do in the West, with the possible exception of some degenerate moral stuff (open homosexing, porn, drugs) which Chinese don’t allow. On the other hand, you can’t vote.

    I looked around, and most everything in the city was new. Shenzhen was a small fishing village in the ’80s. Now it was like Hong Kong. High speed trains with attractive women in uniforms serving coffee and tea. Johnny on the spot bus service with no Boyz from da Hood looking to rob you. Ability to walk through winding big city streets and not get mugged. Sure, the air quality sucked, but that’s being worked on.

    But the one thing you can’t do is vote. Yet who are we voting for? For politicians whose idea of representation is selling majority members down the drain, supporting Jewish interests over white interests, wrecking the economy, wars without end in places no one can find on the map, and importing tons of Third World people who hat us.

    So after thinking about the question, I threw back my cup of Joe, and replied, “It’s not too bad.”

  39. WHAT says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Asians produce plenty of scientific works in various fields, and at some nearby point quantity will turn into quality as well. Nobel Prize here is not an indicator, because it is very slow in general and very obviously represents pro-european bias in nominant selection.

  40. I visit China ~1-2 yearly for business, but only since 2010. My first hand experience leads me to believe that they are not something to be afraid of and are never destined for world domination. They have cultural issues that mesh poorly with industrial civilization. Every expat you meet will have 20 stories about how screwed up things are. I could talk for hours on the subject. In China a problem is NOT something to solve. It is something to avoid being blamed for. Little problems are shunned and not discussed so they snowball into bigger and bigger problems. The ideas that things should work (at all) and that you should strive to make your part of the world better (as opposed to profiting from the current FUBAR situation) also do not seem to have caught on.

    Also ultimately the thesis of this article is that central planning works, and I have to cry BS on that one. Central planning ultimately fails for basic reasons: human corruption, and the distributed nature of knowledge and incentives. China is incredibly corrupt. Any finite number of geniuses [in central planning] is still dumber than an infinite number of morons [spread throughout the country with local knowledge inaccessible to the central planners] (quote from Thomas Sowell?). Any time decision makers are insulated from the consequences of their decisions they will make bad decisions (forever), even if they are angels. A high performing organization is run by the sergeants, not the generals. The sergeants know what is going on and must deal with the consequences of their decisions. China is run by the generals, and because of the whole “problem” paradigm above, their generals have perhaps less reliable information than any generals on earth. I wish them well all the same. They may accomplish some mischief, so we should be on our guard, but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let’s hope we stop that process soon.

  41. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Its a lot better now. What the Party wants to improve, they do.

  42. Che Guava says:

    Random points, flow was better the first time.

    Deng’s ‘reforms’ were destroying not just the rurcommunes (in most places), but also rural education and health care.

    Also creating the floating labour army (50 million or so), who are not enjoying good conditions.

    The CPSU in Stalin times, was using the term ‘primitive socialist accumulation’. In Russia, post-collapse of USSR, mainly Jewish oligarchs, often descending from very minor functionaries, were to robbing the place, with co-ordinated assistance from co-ethnic neocon ‘advisors’ from the USA.

    In China, having warning from that, party hierarchs and managers of older industrial formations were playing the similar role.

    China is also to being congratulated on being serious about population control, but second and third trimester abortions are murder, and I would suggesting that any post-conception are.

    However, I am agreeing with the principie, only because humans are like a locust plague on the earth.

    Who is enjoying the sparkling SF world that Brown is describing?

    Party thieves, children of former state-business managers.

    Aiso stealing much tech, much on China’s high-speda rail is stolen from Japan, they put out tenders, but the only objective is theft.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  43. @Sergey Krieger

    It is true that East Asians, at similar levels of development to European countries, tend to underperform relative to their IQ – possibly because of a lack of curiosity, or other factors.

    Still, there’s a lot of Chinese.

    Here is a good proxy for elite level scientific output: https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    China (WFC=6,500) is already a solid second to the United States (WFC=15,000), with more than 40% of its output.

    Now if it were to converge to the per capita performance of Taiwan (WFC=300), South Korea (WFC=1,000), Japan (WFC=2,500), it would soar past the United States.

    Nobel Prizes lag reality by around a generation. See the explosion of Japanese Nobel Prizes c.2000.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Talha
  44. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @backwoods Bob

    You can do anything in China politically except try to overthrow the government; try setting up an organization to throw the government in the US and see how far they’ll let you, in the same way. There’s relatively less political freedom in China, but its not a fundamental difference thanks to the increasing oppressive nature of the US society as well.

    • Replies: @Backwoods Bob
  45. Without the Mao Era, I would be living in and writing about another Indonesia, Columbia or Libya. It’s that simple.

    There are, or were, three other Chinese societies we can look at. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore.

    All successful, in fact considerably more successful than mainland China. Mainly because they embraced capitalism earlier than the mainland did.

    As Anatoly Karlin hints at, the main reason for China’s success is that it is populated by Chinese people.

    Comparing China to Indonesia, Colombia, or Libya shows complete ignorance of racial differences. Southeast Asians, mestizos, and Arabs are all racially inferior to Chinese people.

    I’ll also note that the author appears to be ashamed of his own ethnic heritage based on his frequent uses of “imperial” as a pejorative.

  46. @jacques sheete

    I know nothing about China, but from what I know about other Asian countries and how the Chinese fare in them, I suspect they employ a somewhat purer and less militaristic type of capitalism there. It likely resembles the the freer capitalism, (minus the militaristic aggression) that characterized that of the US during the 19th century, and which died at the end of that century during the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson, primarily,

    I’m glad you admit that you know nothing.

    While the article you commented on is bad, it describes that China does not have “free capitalism”.

    You’ll know that the US economy continued growing at its traditional 3-4% pace after the reigns of Teddy Roosevelt and Woody Wilson.

    You are a religious fanatic. I am offended that you libertarian faggots still exist.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  47. @Priss Factor

    In contrast, National Socialist fascism came to be premised on the notion of ‘Aryan’ superiority, and this filled Germans with delusions of grandeur as the god-race that can do anything. It lacked humility. And the ideology about the divine Yamato race in Japan led to demented pride that led Japanese to do very incautious things.

    Yes, that’s the myth many of us have been taught, but can you support the claim? Are you able to recognize war time propaganda when you encounter it?

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  48. George says:

    High-speed rail for California is stupid. Why? Airplanes are the way to go. Maybe China and France have population densities that can support HSTs but not California.

    One theory is that China will collapse the same way the Empire of Germany collapsed. Lack of rule of law, crazy leaders and militarists get control (unlike here in the good ole USA).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  49. Che Guava says:

    One more, it is all to depending on cheap energy.

    Was reading an article, earlier, about ‘rise of AI’.

    With no cheap energy, that will be falling apart yery quickly.

    Machines are capital-efficent with cheap energy, but much iess energy-efficent than people.

    All of the remnant Asian Communist states (with the possible exception of Laos), are close to national socialsm.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  50. China has always been good at mobilizing the masses to do things. That doesn’t mean it will ever surpass the US or even Japan for that matter. Some cultural deficiencies that resulted in the century of humiliation are still there. Mao knew this and tried to eradicate the poisonous aspects with grand failures like the cultural revolution, which destroyed both the good and the bad. There are too many cultural and systemic problems still there, covered up behind the sky rises and glitz bullet trains.

    A big fat person is strong and intimidating to the untrained eye, but will never beat a smaller, leaner warrior in any fight.

  51. @jilles dykstra

    I wrote, in essence, that economic liberty must lead to political liberty.

    Unfortunately, the American experience shows that the big winners of the economic liberty game also win the game of political liberty and then are free to change the rules of the game to benefit themselves at the expense of others and are at liberty to impose virtual serfdom an the rest of us.

    In particular, the big winners of the world wars, economically speaking, gained pretty complete hegemony over any competition, both foreign and domestic, using the handy instrument of centralized government and it can be seen in the war collectivism that was prepared prior to WW1, and honed to a fine edge in the subsequent two big ones.

    It may be that one reason for China’s successes is that they have not yet squandered their wealth in military adventurism all over the world as has the US for the century and a quarter.

  52. @Sergey Krieger

    …there is almost none of them among science novel prize winners.

    That’s a novel take. Anyway, forgive me if I’ve assumed that you mean Nobel prize winners, but the prizes seem like a farce to me and indicate one thing, i.e., that the recipient has been approved by the cliques who run such things.

    Take O-bomb-a’s “peace” prize, for instance.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  53. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @George

    US is two out of three on your list, thank goodness your gays are saving you from the last!

  54. @Thorfinnsson

    I’m glad you admit that you know nothing.

    And I’ll be happy to admit that I have little time for trolls who can’t even admit that they don’t know JS, and therefore feel the need to initiate really simple minded personal attacks.

    Don’t you have anything better to offer?

    ‘Bye now!

  55. @Jeff J. Brown

    The facts are not racist, they simply are. Referencing Saker is risible. The man is, at best, poorly informed.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  56. @jacques sheete

    It may be that one reason for China’s successes is that they have not yet squandered their wealth in military adventurism all over the world as has the US for the century and a quarter.

    Its a very large reason, yes. A large quantity of wealth was spent on infrastructure instead of defense – both can be useless spending, but all in all, ghost cities probably become more useful than endless military adventurism all other things considered.

    For one, fewer people want to kill you for building ghost cities as opposed to, say, bombing their homes.

  57. @Quartermaster

    The facts are not racist

    Don’t play into this frame.

    There is nothing wrong with racism.

    Racism is objectively correct.

    Jeff J. Brown is a man ashamed of his own ethnic heritage.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  58. @lucidian

    Exactly correct. China’s economy is a bubble and they have been spending money like a drunken sailor on things that simply don’t make sense (empty cities are just one example). In technology, China has been a parasite, stealing from anyone they can. The Soviet Union was the same way. China’s advance will come to a crashing halt for the same reason the Soviet’s advance did.

    With the elevation of Xi to a position of Second Great Helmsman, after Mao’s Great Helmsman, there will be a crackdown, and if the FedGov comes to its senses, will realize we have educated, and trained our enemies, as well as equipped them. The US relationship with Red China makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  59. polistra says:

    If you think it was “stolen from the natives” you didn’t learn anything from growing up in Oklahoma. You’re sticking with an unexamined Yankee bias.

  60. @Skullcrusher

    Generals, sergeants, etc all assume that its still humans running the operation. In a world of digital centralization, machine learning and big data, such assumptions should be questioned. Technology changes the practicality of many endeavors once thought impossible.

    • Replies: @Skullcrusher
    , @jbwilson24
  61. @Che Guava

    I don’t see cheap energy ending anytime soon. Do you?

    Obviously if it does to any vast level, the consequences would be catastrophic, not only for China, but modern human civilization as we know it.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  62. Miro23 says:

    …that the racist propaganda of Western moral, intellectual, creative and technical superiority finally started to crumble in my consciousness.

    It takes a lot to bring down Empires.

    With the British it took;

    1) The trench warfare of WW1 (unexpected shock).
    2) The WW2 surrender of Singapore (to the racially inferior Japanese!!)
    3) Withdrawal from India (unable to control mass Indian nationalism)
    4) Suez and the realization that it was American power that mattered.
    5) British industrial failure. Excess debt. Early 1970′s loss of residual Sterling reserve currency status (oil balances move into the US Dollar) and 25% p.a. inflation.

    It was mostly military, but finally an economic story.

    If the US Empire is following in the footsteps of the British then the list might be:

    1) Vietnam (massive cost for eventual failure).
    2) The 9/11 Deception proving to be “uninvestigateable”
    3) Enormously costly Middle east wars for no result, driven by a treasonous Zionist minority.
    4? Probable withdrawal from Empire?
    5? American industrial failure. Excess debt. Loss of US Dollar reserve currency status (oil balances + world trade denominated in some other unit?). Inflation.

    • Replies: @1RW
  63. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Jeff J. Brown is a man ashamed of his own ethnic heritage.

    If its any consolation, a brief check into his history indicates that its not as simple as that. He’s simply a hardcore Communist, one of the Old Guard and a true believer; he’s shows no ethnic embarrassment toward Russians, for example.

    As such, he’s simply very pro-Communist wherever it would exist. If France became Communist, he would probably be enthusiastically supportive of it, for example, even if it was all white.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  64. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What’s your proof that Asians underperform relative to their IQ?

    That link doesn’t say much of anything and research output is a poor proxy for underperformance being that so much of China is still agrarian and so much of the West gets an artificial boost of fiat dsvelopement.

    Sounds like a meme lazy white people use to prove muh white superiority.

    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  65. @Joe Stalin

    Bringing all the troops and fleets an planes home is also essential.

  66. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Nice nonsense about civic nationalism. Most Chinese dwell in very homogeneous cities and towns surrounded almost solely by their own regional co-ethnics. The end result is essentially the same as Japan (and Korea, ect.) for many hundreds of millions of Chinese people.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  67. @Anonymous

    Was not talking about China (in fact clearly implied it has plenty of room for convergence). Read more carefully.

    Japan has 40% of the US population, no useless NAMs. Only produces 1/6 the elite scientific output of the United States.

    Has twice the UK population; produces less elite scientific output than the UK.

    https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/weighted_score

    • Replies: @Jey
    , @hyperbola
    , @Anonymous
  68. @Anonymous

    I see.

    Being a communist is perhaps even more embarrassing than being a libertarian.

  69. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    As usual, ignorance about China. Consider that it pretty obviously has affirmative action for their minorities and showing “racial pride” is illegal(unlike Japan, for example), or just read SCMP for their efforts to plug “African dance” and other bits of foreign culture. There’s a heavy expectation of meritocracy but no empire can afford to be ethnonationalist and China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  70. @Anonymous

    Except that China doesn’t practice ethnonationalism – and its a “crime against the nation” to engage in praise of Han as a race(“Han chauvinism” is the exact crime), one that isn’t prosecuted very often but it is pretty clear what is the government’s position on that

    Ethno-nationalism and national chauvinism are two different things. One is about pride of identity and culture and defense of territory. The other is about acting BETTER than other peoples and nations.
    There is certainly Chinese nationalism.
    And even though this nationalism isn’t always explicitly pro-Han, Chinese nationalism is defacto Han pride and culture because most Chinese are pro-Han. It’s like Americanism used to mean pretty much WHITE Americanism before the change in immigration laws and promotion of Diversity as the new identity of America.
    Also, the Han-run government ensures Han encroachment and domination of Uighur and Tibetan territories.

    In a way, Chinese suppression of explicit Han nationalism is to rule over non-Han people. Chinese do this in the name of ‘brotherhood of man’ and benevolence. But those are justifications to exert power over others.
    It’s like what the US does in the Middle East. US suppresses overt anti-Muslim rhetoric precisely because it wants to meddle in the Middle East. If the US government expressed overt hostility to Muslim World, even Saudis would have to stand up to US power.

    Granted, the difference is Chinese are maintaining control over their own territory whereas US invades and interferes abroad. But China is a kind of empire nation… like the US, Iran, Russia, and Turkey. And of course so many crazy-quilt nations of Latin America and Africa.

  71. @jacques sheete

    Yes, that’s the myth many of us have been taught, but can you support the claim? Are you able to recognize war time propaganda when you encounter it?

    OK, so am I to believe that Hitler’s MEIN KAMPF was about “I love everyone”?

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  72. Che Guava says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Daniel,

    Was not to implying that it would be exceptional for China. Glad you were to catch my implication, though I was not saying it directly. I am just saying that the glittering edifices that Mr. Brown is describing, and sure, I am understanding the attraction of such spectacles, are on ever shallower ground of resources.

    Fossil-fuel shortages already here (for the world), doubt you would consider ‘fracking’ sane. I do not.

    Abe, PM here, is wanting to reactivate nuclear power plants. Much as I dislike many of his ideas, it is the only sensible thing to do. The plants are there, fuel is there, pointless to not using it.

    … but then, safety. The incident that was bringing tears to my eyes was on the other side of Japan to Fukushima number 1.

    Earlier, a trio of fools were mixing powdered fuel in a metal bucket, it went critical, they all died.

    There were one or two similar incidents here in that time.

    Fukushima number one is continuing to pour highly radioactive poison into the Pacific, almost every major train station in the prefecture has a solar-powered radiation metre outside, millisieverts per hour.

    Also necessary is near-perfect recycling, particularly of metals. Also shortages.

    At the end of summer, I was going to a beach just north of Tokyo, the tide-line was looking as if it had leaves from a novel species of kelp, looking much like shredded plastic bags, I knelt to feel, sure, just a tide-line of plastic.

    Chinese-registered ships are the worst offenders for garbage discharge and just to throwing things from the deck, in this part of the world, sure, not the only, only the worst.

    Excuse the length.

  73. denk says:
    @Max Payne

    Bombing hospitals, water, sewerage plants, bridges, market place, ..
    , wedding parties….

    Sniping at ambulances, bombing the rescue parties [double tapping]

    Impose embargoes on essential medicines, replacement parts for bombed out water/sewerage plants…..
    [effectively signing the death certificates of the bombed victims]

    MADeline Olbright
    ’500000 Iraqi children are worth it’
    [more like 2 million]

    Obliterating the whole neighborhood of a ‘suspect terrorist hideout’…
    just to make sure !

    Strafing at retreating , defenceless soldiers, civilians
    [shooting fish in a barrel]

    Tip of an iceberg !

    If these are the handiwork of ‘civilised‘ people,
    How could there be any ‘savages’, ‘barbarians’ left in this world ?

    P.S.
    Unlike all those trolls who yap like well trained parrots about ‘Mao the mass murderer’ , I can actually back up every single claim I make.
    Like so …

    Barbarians exhibit 1

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27e/080.html

  74. @jacques sheete

    Yes Novel. I mean science, not peace or literature.

  75. hyperbola says:

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China? Or why “capitalist” Japan and South Korea have four-times greater coverage of their population with high-speed trains than China. China has less coverage than west european nations in general. It does manage to beat the coverage in Turkey. Informative table here.

    Ranking internacional de trenes de alta velocidad

    https://www.goeuro.es/trenes/alta-velocidad

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @jacques sheete
  76. @jacques sheete

    That’s the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don’t last too long.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  77. hyperbola says:

    A strange characteristic of this article is that the author mostly extols the ability of the chinese to do more or less the same thing as western capitalist societies (copying them?), but to do it “better and faster”.

    Do western capitalist societies actually have viable ways forward that should be copied? Or are the Chinese simply replicating the kind of “technological fragility” that the west seems to be creating? Building skyscrapers in days might actually be digging the hole in which one is trapped deeper and deeper. To say nothing of commercial exchange systems that rely on “continuous connectivity” to avoid catastrophic failures.

  78. Vidi says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Any culture despises all other cultures.

    Not all cultures despise all others. For example, most Europeans seriously respect the old Greeks and Romans.

    By the way, the Europeans really did throw their sewage onto the street in front of their homes. “Exito!”, or something like it, was shouted to warn passers-by to get under cover if they didn’t want the smelly brown stuff to land on them. I haven’t read Marco Polo’s writings, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that one of his top amazements was that Chinese cities were clean and didn’t smell like open sewers.

    Of course, Europeans don’t do such unsanitary things any more. My point is that morals change, behaviours change. Give the Chinese a few more years to adjust to their newfound prosperity, and they too will behave like prosperous people.

  79. Well, my head is not spinning, because this article is downright silly. There has been no miraculous growth in China and Far East in general, the data does not bear this out: http://www.brmandel.com/uploads/3/2/4/5/3245755/myth_of_asias-miracle.pdf

    Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution wrought outright havoc in Chinese industry, in particular aviation – many projects were delayed for decades because of that idiocy. Mao has been mostly destructive for China.

    And the other side of the coin of all those infrastructural projects is excessive, structural debt in China which is likely to crash with vengeance exceeding that of 2008 in the West. Theoretically their political system can withhold that, but counting on it in practice is like playing Russian roulette with 4 chambers out of 6 loaded.

    The grass is always greener behind the currently hyped fence. This article is very excitable, but rather dumb. It suffers of so called “traveller’s fallacy”: “I’ve been there, therefore I know everything about the problem”. Well, no. You still apply your misunderstandings to the problem.

  80. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    ignorance about China

    Just the ignorance that comes from having lived there (Suzhou, Wuhan), and having traveled around the country and the rest of East Asia. Affirmative action in China is a drop in the bucket and barely relevant. Racial pride in China is tied up with national pride, as it is in Japan and Korea, and how it was in Europe and the US before runaway immigration and multiculturalism took over. When Chinese take pride in China, they aren’t thinking about how proud they are to be in the same nation as Uighurs or Tibetans. You have a rose-colored view of how racial identity on a personal level works in China.

    China has been multiracial since at least the Tang.

    China’s “multiracialism” is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. China’s minorities are far more similar to the majority population than the minority groups of the West are. Not to mention, they’ve been inhabiting those regions for thousands of years. You should go ahead and ask them in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag.

    When China experiences Western-style diversity, then you can come back and tell me all about how well civic nationalism works in China and how it is a model for the West.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @DB Cooper
  81. Joe Wong says:
    @wayfarer

    The video showed the Tibetans are performing their cult rituals in Lhasa Tibet China nowadays, if Tibetan’s religion is suppressed as the western narrator said in the video was true, then you will not see so many Tibetans performing those cult rituals so publicly for the West to film for their demonizing China propaganda. It is sad that your racial bigotry blinds you from picking up such contradiction right from beginning of the video.

    Dalai Lama was a wealthy slave owning Tibetan ‘compradores’ imported British goods and facilitated the takeover of local markets and resources in Tibet, as well as allowing the Anglo imperialist pillage forced greater exploitation and taxation of the great mass of Tibetans to suit the needs of the empire.

    The British and American are resentful that CCP terminated their exploitation of Tibetans, imperial domination of Tibet and the gratification of their White supremacy in front of the poverty ridden Tibetans. CCP exposed their imperialist undertaking in engineering Tibetan war lords arm revolt against Chinese central government and the exile of the Dalai Lama and his mentally colonized Tibetan ‘compradores’ by capturing the British and American agents during the putting down of the Tibetan armed rebellion. The British and American are vindictive, so they continue their anti-China propaganda with fake news like the videos you posted.

    The Dalai Lama is a wolf in monk’s robes, a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast. Under the Dalai Lama rule, the Tibetan Constitution makes slavery/serfdom legal.
    It allows the buying and selling of Tibetans as slaves/serfs.
    The Dalai Lama in 1951 himself had owned 6500 slaves
    All the monasteries had owned slaves who do all the menial/dirty work.
    It divides Tibetan people into 3 main castes and 12 sub-castes — with the slaves, the lowest castes.
    (1) the Tibetan nick-names for slaves was “Two-legged cattle”
    (2) these slaves were indeed bought and sold like cattle
    (3) They live in the cattle-shed together with the cattle
    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking “Who is your master?” instead of “what is your name”?
    *5) They were routinely tortured, abused, raped by their masters; gouging eyes, chopping hands and skinning alive were the common penalties under the Dalai Lama rule.
    (6) They had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter
    (7) When the escaped slaves ran to the monasteries for help they were told by monks to accept their Fate as KARMA — and not to rebel , otherwise they would re-incarnate as something worse

    All of the above, the British and the American were serving the Dalai Lama as political advisors on the governing council.

  82. @Priss Factor

    OK, so am I to believe that Hitler’s MEIN KAMPF was about “I love everyone”?

    OK, so am I to believe that you know anything but the mythology of Hitler and Mein Kampf?

    Here you go; disabuse yerself of some foolishness…

    “… this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth.

    If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler’s Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions…”

    Murray Rothbard, Revisionism for Our Time
    Mr. Rothbard was an American Jew and an historian of the very highest caliber.

    http://mises.org/daily/2592

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  83. Jey says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Then how do you explain France does much worse than the UK in the so called elite scientific output, although they have roughly the same population? I’d venture whoever has the bigger say due to its legacy and language advantage has the bigger influence on this kind of indeces, just look at the world university rankings by some famous media every year; It’s a guarantee that UK/US universities will take up almost all seats in the top 20 (incidentally the young generation of scientists in the top US universities are mostly Asians, like the overrepresented Jews in the last century, many of whom became Nobel prize winners in their later life). I am not suggesting all these kinds of indeces/rankings are fakenews, but they are not as objective as you may think it is. That’s why China would ditch international ratings by some credit agencies to sell its sovereign bonds, establish AIIB, SCO, OBOR, etc in hope of setting the standards by herself.

    So far the US is still a leading nation in science and technology but the US is an exception, because as a superpower it can attract the brightest from all over the world. Europe is another story. Seems to me that the EU is becoming more and more irrelevant in the new industries (internet, ecommerce, AI, semiconductors, etc) and in global market. The UK has London as a financial hub to remind us its relevancy; France and Italy sell overpriced luxury goods to make some people feel good about themselves; Germany produces some interesting mechanic products but if Japan or even Korea could have the same single EU market as Germany does, I don’t think German goods would be competitive enough to compete against, say, Japanese cars, robots, cameras, korean TVs, or Taiwanese chips.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  84. Ron Unz says:
    @anonymous

    China’s “multiracialism” is different than multiracialism in the West. The two aren’t even remotely comparable.

    Actually, I think a reasonable analogy for China’s “racial/ethnic issues” is the situation in the U.S. during the 1950s if blacks had not existed.

    Certainly, America was a “multi-racial” country back then given that there were millions of non-white Americans living in the country. But they were only substantial fractions of the population in outlying, mostly under-developed regions such as Alaska, New Mexico, Hawaii, and various Indian reservations in South Dakota and such. And the total population was over 95% white.

    Obviously, if you’d asked Americans, they would have certainly been aware of the existence of non-white Americans, such as Asians, Hispanic Mestizos, and American Indians. Indeed, individual members of these groups were sometimes touted favorably by the media for their achievements, such as Jim Thorpe the famous Olympic athlete or Charlie Chan the great (fictional) detective. And any0ne who went around claiming that America was an “all white” country would have been regarded as ignorant, boorish, and bigoted.

    But America was an “almost all-white” country, and most Americans vaguely regarded it as such.

    • Replies: @eah
    , @anonymous
  85. China has destroyed my career and in essence my life. I can NOT COMPETE against a company in China where profits are of a secondary concern.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  86. Joe Wong says:
    @jilles dykstra

    You should say dictatorial system is bound to disappear regardless it is capitalism, communism, western style democracy (Orwellian police state in reality).

    Capitalism is about greed, maximize bottom line, monopoly, concentration of wealth and exploitation, while communism is about equalizing wealth. The end result is capitalism reducing economic liberty for the 99% while the communism improve economic liberty for all, such conclusion is also reflecting in the current world. In according to your conclusion the capitalism is bound to disappear because capitalism reduces economic liberty.

  87. @Seamus Padraig

    That’s the biggest problem with democracy and capitalism: they don’t last too long.

    Their brevity may be benefits.

    Democracy is rule by morons, fools, and busybodies (just like all other forms of rule), has never really existed to any degree, and really shouldn’t be allowed to because it can easily be subverted and become an agent of oppression.

    Capitalism has many forms and most of them end up being perverted by the big money bag shysters themselves which I think is the biggest problem. Another big problem is that crooks can gather capital relatively easily compared to hard working productive folk, and capital tends toward both monopolies and monopsonies, both of which involve a loss of freedom for the rest of us. Liberal as well as illiberal forms of capitalism wind up becoming tyrannical plut-oligarchical forms, such as we have in the USSA (United Socialist States of Amerika).

    The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    , @polaco
  88. Joe Wong says:
    @lucidian

    Racism (originated from Orientalism) is a White invention, the worst kind of development of human intelligence, it makes human beings pit against each other blindly like bigot creatures. Racism is the ultimate expression of greed, selfishness, closed mindedness, hypocrisy and it is an eternal drag on the progress of civilization.

    Thanks to the racism invented by the White, now human being can treat each other with contempt, enslave others on the moral high ground, slaughter others as subhuman species, and we never can live together in harmony on this tiny little blue dot in the vast empty universe.

    The racism invented by the White makes us lonely in this cold dark universe because we no longer trust each other to get warmth.

    • Disagree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Wade
    , @lucidian
  89. @Anonymous

    “A third of Americans need a government license to work”

    and all you need is a pulse to vote.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  90. hyperbola says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Now that Nature was bought by the zionists (Springer Verlag), they publish all kinds of dodgy propaganda. Seems to be a trait: sell garbage at inflated prices with propaganda.

    The Israel Lobby in Germany | Freemasonry – Scribd

    https://es.scribd.com/document/236970539/The-Israel-Lobby-in-Germany

    Axel Springer Chef : “Ich bin ein Zionist” – YouTube

  91. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @interesting

    So, you literally lost because of capitalism.

  92. @Anonymous

    Yes, I did not mean to suggest the USA was night-and-day difference in political freedom.

    It is also a very interesting contrast between the state media in communist china and the state media in the USA, following Chomsky’s Propaganda Model.

    Many hate Chomsky because he is a “liberal”, but his Propaganda Media Model is one of the best contributions to social science I have ever seen.

    Along with lack of political freedom we have “voluntary” state media with CNN, MSNBC, NY Times etc. putting out propaganda and suppressing/harassing independent journalism.

    What’s the difference between state run media in the USA and state run media in China? A lot: in China, they pay you to publish propaganda. In the USA they pay you to publish propaganda.

    So that subtle difference explains a lot.

  93. Joe Wong says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Sergey Krieger, goose step, toothbrush mustache, death production line for Holocaust are some of the notable technological breakthroughs produced by the German.

  94. @Jeff J. Brown

    Thanks for reacquainting me, with the late and great Leon Russell.

  95. @Joe Wong

    What planet do you live on?

    The type of Briton or American who loves the Dalai Llama is the same sort of person who thinks that imperialism, colonialism, racism, slavery, etc. were the most evil things ever and that we must endlessly apologize for.

    China fits into these people’s worldviews awkwardly, as while they are ashamed of attacking and dominating China in the past they today view China as being an oppressive country in its own right.

    The sort of Westerners who DO (for instance, me) miss the days of exploiting China don’t give a shit about the Dalai Llama. He’s just some bald old fruitcake in silly robes. What the Tibetan monks did when they ran Tibet is equally irrelevant to us except as a matter of historical curiosity.

    We also don’t give a shit about China dominating Tibet today at all. At most we want to separate Tibet from China to weaken you, and obviously that’s the reason why the Dalai Llama is entertained by Western governments.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  96. @interesting

    …and all you need is a pulse to vote.

    Baloney. In Amer-ka even the long-deceased have been known to cast ballots. Probably multiple times even.

  97. eah says:
    @Ron Unz

    But America was an “almost all-white” country, and most Americans vaguely regarded it as such.

    I don’t think the feeling was all that vague.

  98. @Ron Unz

    You should be apologizing for posting the drivel that is this article.

    I don’t know what game you’re playing by publishing these demented lefties, with whom I’m nigh on certain you don’t even remotely agree.

    You’re a smart guy, so I trust you know what you’re doing. I just hope it’s something laudable rather than insidious.

  99. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz

    All great points. I completely agree.

    Personally, I believe there are several positive aspects of civic nationalism (in certain situations, and within limits). It’s just that I often see communist sympathizing sinophiles touting China as some sort of shining beacon of multiculturalism, standing in opposition to those evil and racist Western (and East Asian) capitalist societies who are busy oppressing minorities and complaining about multiculturalism. It’s a toxic and disingenuous form of virtue signaling (e.g. the above nonsense about “African dances”) that communist sympathizers love to use in an attempt to tout the virtues of their brand. Chinese people have the luxury of living their day to day life in similar homogeneity (China is actually less diverse than Japan and South Korea, in many areas) as their Asian neighbors. If Chinese people had diversity forced upon them and were pushed to the point that Westerners are, their attitudes in these matters would change real quick.

  100. China is neither communist nor socialist. Socialism with Chinese characteristics is a euphemism for Crony Capitalism, which is the system China has. Corruption is endemic in all levels of the bureaucracy.

    Lenora Chu’s book Little Soldiers gives an eye opening account of the pervasive corruption in China even in its much vaunted education system. Parents constantly have to bribe teachers with expensive gifts like luxury goods. The teachers themselves have to bribe administrators to get their promotions. In the countryside, at least 50% of kids drop out at the end of middle school, and these dropouts need jobs. The frenzy construction in China is the government’s way of providing jobs to these dropouts and other adult migrant workers, as a way to keep peace, it has nothing to do with actual demand.

    Corrupt government officials seize the land from the farmers, sell it at a discount to a well connected developer who obtains government loans on the cheap after bribing the bankers, the developer provides jobs to the construction workers and keeps the government happy, while pocketing a large chunk of the loans and sending it to his offshore bank accounts in the Caribbean or Singapore, which enable him to buy foreign real estate and move his family out of China, as well as himself when the time comes.

    The vast majority of mainland Chinese who emigrated to the US in the past decade are corrupt government officials and their equally corrupt cronies in the private sector. The US would never have developed if the titans of our industries, from Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt to Gates, Bezos, Jobs etc. did the same, by stashing away their wealth in Europe and moving to Europe en masse after getting rich in America. Trillions of dirty money have left China’s shores in the past 2 decades. Endemic corruption ensures China will never be able to get past the middle income trap, just like other corrupt crony capitalist countries like Malaysia, Russia, Brazil.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    , @Anonymous
  101. @Vidi

    …the Chinese government builds new, free housing for these people and generally leaves them better off.

    Better off in what sense? One of the major problems when corrupt government officials seized the land from the farmers is that these farmers lost their livelihood. So what if they get their new high rise modern apartment, usually in the middle of nowhere? There are often no jobs in the area. And they have no more lands to farm. Where will they work? Many end up having to work in construction, helping to build more empty apartments elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  102. Vidi says:
    @hyperbola

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China?

    If a country has two people in it and its only high-speed train line is one km long, that country has many times more kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail than China.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  103. Vidi says:
    @eah

    The lesson is, dig your underground parking lots before erecting a building on top of it, not afterwards.

    • LOL: Talha
  104. @Daniel Chieh

    I can’t disagree with your statements but do not understand their relevance. Are you saying China will beat the West thru superior machine learning? Please clarify.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  105. Wade says:
    @Joe Wong

    I was following your comments, some of which were good, but now you’ve gone off of the deep end. A basic human trait invented by white people all on our own? Now you really do give us way too much credit here.

  106. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    S Korea and Japan are also developed countries without having had the stewardship of the all-wise Mao or the infallible communist party. The author keeps making comparisons between the gold-standard, which is the west, and China with the latter-of course-always looking good by comparison, a childish bad habit in argumentation. He also constantly shakes the kewpie doll of wassism at every opportunity, another juvenile trait. The author has obviously flipped over to the other side and now identifies with the Chinese rather than with the evil and wassist westerners. That’s ok by me but he should stay there and continue on as a propagandist for the infallible Chinese communist party. They need native speakers of English for their public relations services. Central planning by the never-wrong party is the wave of the future, we get it. Tall buildings in a jiffy or not, I’d rather live in Amsterdam.

  107. @Erebus

    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. The reality is both China and India are over populated countries mired in their ancient cultures that encourage endemic corruption. It’s been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    Indians are further hobbled by their propensity for violence.

    Would modern infrastructure drag a people out of their ancient cultures and send them into the modern age? The late Samuel Huntington discussed this fine point in his excellent book Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. Huntington pointed out that countries can be modernized without being westernized. Singapore and Japan for instance, are both modernized, but Singapore is a lot more westernized than Japan. Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    By nature the Japanese are very much like the English, law abiding, civic minded, polite. The Chinese are more like Italians, breaking the law when they can get away with it, every man for himself, dog eat dog, rude and loud. Since 70% of Singapore’s inhabitants are Chinese, Lee Kuan Yew set out to rid the Chinese of their bad cultural norms by adopting English as the lingua franca and primary language of instruction. He then set up a corruption free government by first paying his cabinet members high salaries to prevent them from being enticed by graft, made every government employee wear a name tag and encourage all citizens to report any government employee that solicits bribe in any way. By such draconian measures he was able to rid the Chinese in Singapore of their propensity for corruption.

    China seeks to emulate Singapore without adopting the two most salient features instituted by Lee Kuan Yew – adoption of English as a primary language of instruction, and paying the cabinet members high enough salaries to prevent them from succumbing to bribes. The president of China makes only US$26,000 a year, that is a joke compared to cabinet members of Singapore who each make US$700,000 a year. That’s why China will not be the next Singapore, it will instead become another Malaysia or Russia, mired in corruption and unable to escape the middle income trap. As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption. Corruption will eventually bring down the CPC and China, as it has brought down every single Chinese dynasty throughout its history. Unchecked power always corrupts.

    India is hopeless. It won’t even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.

  108. bandw says:
    @Another Realist

    You can solve the problem of corruption through technology, meaning going full cashless in everyday transactions, which is happening and growing fast in China at this very moment.

    • Replies: @Anon
  109. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Vidi

    Did you notice the OP’s pseudonym?

    • Replies: @Vidi
  110. Talha says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    possibly because of a lack of curiosity, or other factors

    Wait! There are other factors apart from IQ at work??!! Other factors that make a difference??!!

    Heresy!!!

    Anyway – case study…

    High IQ White Nerd Taps Into Inner Tough Low IQ Colored Guy to Beat High IQ Colored Nerd – Result: Gets White Girl

  111. 1RW says:
    @Miro23

    You forgot
    0) Being fought to a standstill by poorly equipped but highly motivated Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  112. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @bandw

    And this would help too.

    https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/international/china-to-set-up-state-anti-corruption-unit-next-year-11802029

    INTERNATIONAL – China aims to pass a national supervision law and set up a new commission next year to oversee an expansion of President Xi Jinping’s campaign to fight corruption in the ruling Communist Party and government, the party said on Sunday.

    The moves will be made during the country’s annual meeting of parliament early next year, the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI), the party’s anti-graft watchdog, said in its report to a five-yearly party congress last week. The report had not been previously released, and gave few other details on the commission.

    I don’t believe China is hopeless in clean up corruption. Hong Kong was one of the most corrupt places before the 80′s. Now it ranks higher than the US and Japan in Corruption Perceptions Index .

  113. @Another Realist

    that is utter bullshit :)

    I know of a chinese couple who owns an apt that is about to be taken down to make way for a subway station. they live in NYC but have alot of investments in china. mostly store fronts. the subway station drove the land value up by about 250% in just 3 months. the govt will be paying them the inflated value of the apt or they can opt for an apt in one of the brand new apt buildings the chinese govt will build around the station.

    if you want to pass off as a realist, at least get your facts straight. :)

    • Replies: @Another Realist
  114. @Priss Factor

    Very well stated, wow!

    Homogenious societies, save a few, can accomplish miracles without the yoke of usary. America is getting exactly what it deserves, most are unwitting boiling frogs. God have mercy on the traiters if the populace awakens in time.

  115. There is a major problem that all of you including the author overlooked: The price of the pollution that exists in China and the price to pay. The air pollution will cause most likely upwards of 50 to 60 million deaths by cancer, emphysema and other diseases. Many of China’s major rivers are also in serious jeopardy.

    The price of health care and pollution clean up will put a dent in China’s economy that you won’t believe. Furthermore, I hope China’s civil engineers are better than some of their electrical and mechanical engineers and some of the stuff they produce.

  116. Rdm says:
    @Vidi

    Europeans used communal brush to wipe their asses after they’re done with their mass.

    An inventor of paper, China rightly made paper for palatial use of ‘toilet paper’. China is the inventor of toilet paper.

    Again, lack of modernization pulled China back to stone age, like when thousands of Zheng He’s nautical exploration records were burnt and destroyed. China has a self-destructive mechanism for all their achievement in the past.

  117. lucidian says:
    @Joe Wong

    Sounds like Chinese government talking points. Chinese are not a warm people. Every Chinese person I have met is cold and aggressive. Every culture has its warts, but China’s are massive, far off the scale of anything any Western country has done. China killed tens of millions of its own people under Mao only a few decades ago. Look in the mirror, Joe Wong. Your people have great shame, and immense carnage to answer for. You should be looking after your own and not be lecturing anyone.

    • Replies: @George Orwell
  118. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    How bout you think more carefully instead of falling back on lazy memes.

    You said East Asians, so you were clearly talking about China even if you tried to cover your ass later on.

    Your conclusion is still a reach, and speaks more of you trying to reach a conclusion that you like than any strong insight.

    Japan’s economy was booming in the 80′s and then they made a deal with the West (devil) and ever since then their economy has stagnated. Their people work like 80 hours a week since their government is loading up on Western debt.

    So yeah, when you work so much you don’t have as much free time to innovate. Same thing would happen to the West if America was buying all the Japanese junk debt and had to work 80 hours a week to get by.

  119. Joe Wong says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Thank you for confirming that rapes, slaughtering, plundering, torturing, hypocrisy … these are the traits of Western culture since ancient time, these behaviour reached its peak during the medieval Europe Inquisition era (about 1000 years long).

    Recently the West keeps bubbling about democracy and human rights; the rest of world was wondering whether the West started to get out of their barbarism and moved into more civilized world, but the beastly behavior of the American and their allies in Korean War, Vietnam War, and wars in the ME plus your comment surely do not help to convince rest of the world that the West wanted to move into civilized world.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  120. @Skullcrusher

    Much more general than that – technology seems to enable increasing centralization, including perhaps overhauling our beliefs about how market signals are always superior. For example, in Biblical times, collecting a tenth of goods as taxes was considered high, but anything more would have been perhaps impossible; yet by Adam Smith’s time, collecting that much in specie was considered as possible(as opposed to collecting it in-kind). And of course, nowadays many government collections anywhere between a third and even half of all salaries without any technical or even emotional opposition from their subjects.

    My thought is that we don’t know if with increasing collection of information in just about everything – basically big data, if centralized planning is now much more viable as an option. My gut feeling is that we might be seeing that.

    • Replies: @Talha
  121. Yeah, blah blah. Just don’t try to breathe the air there.

    Seriously, I was there in 2004 and most of the time the sky was white with haze. At night, the smoke from everyone’s outdoor coal stoves was overpowering.

    And no, I wasn’t in the hinterlands. I was in Changsha, the capital of Hunan province and Guangzhou the capital of Guandong province.

  122. @jacques sheete

    “The defects are those of human nature and are probably insurmountable but it sure gives us something to argue about!”

    You can take man out of the animal world but you can’t take the animal world out of man.

    That’s why man’s attempts at civilization are such kludges.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  123. @Joe Wong

    Civilization simply means complex society. A society with urbanization, government, class stratification, etc.

    It certainly does not mean human rights, peace, or whatever other wishy-washy things people THINK it means.

    In fact, the entire purpose of civilization was warfare. Switching from hunting to agriculture allowed for large populations, governments, and armies in order to attack and subjugate neighbors.

    In any case you misunderstood the democracy and human rights nonsense coming from the West. Many Westerners–not me–really do believe in this garbage. It is a post-Christian religion. Of course this religion, like religions in the past, is occasionally used as an rationalization for imperialism.

    And as far as your misuse of the term civilization (again, this does not mean refraining from warfare, quite the opposite), I’ll note that our civilization has reached a higher apogee and achieved more than any other civilization in history.

    Your civilization is of course worthy of great respect and is in the process of eclipsing mine, so I mean no disrespect to you or to China. I think China’s rise is positive inasmuch as it helps delegitimize human rights, democracy, and other such garbage that is consuming the West.

    But I can’t stand this appalling, weakness-worshipping nonsense that suggests it is somehow WRONG to engage in conflict with your rivals. Other than my bird-brained liberal neighbors this mentality generally comes from LOSERS who seek to convince WINNERS that winning is somehow wrong.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  124. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Excellent points across the board! Especially the details about taxes being paid in kind. The move to fiat currency was a huge step in mankind’s progression toward centralization.

    I’ve mentioned this book before, but bears repeating (your local library probably has a copy and it is excellent in audio format):

    https://www.amazon.com/Technopoly-Surrender-Technology-Neil-Postman/dp/0679745408

    Peace.

  125. polaco says:
    @jacques sheete

    It’s perverse to call the West capitalist. I’m not 100% sure but in France 60% of her GDP is government spending. She’s not less and less socialist like the author claims. Macron wants an EU wide tax to keep her alive. And to call America libertarian-capitalist is ridiculous. Just look what government involvement in medical care has caused, the costs are out of control. If somehow individual and corporate income taxes were abolished, and most government departments liquidated- and government has never shrunk, it always grows bigger and deeper like metastatic cancer, if people were free to do or not to do business with whomever they wanted, direct investment would skyrocket, capital would flow back to America and China would be left in the dust. The way things stand now, morons want free stuff from their government without understanding the consequences, the national security sector must never have its budget slashed, and corporations are lobbying the government to rig the game in their favor. Human nature hasn’t changed in thousands of years and history is never forgiving as it’s being made.

    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  126. denk says:
    @Max Payne

    In Fallujah, under conditions of limited food, contaminated water, and massive injuries, for those seeking food, water or medicine there was another problem,
    “there were so many [US] snipers, anyone leaving their house was killed.
    ” On November 12th we learned “among the first major targets [in the assault on Fallujah] were the hospitals.” A civilian hospital and a trauma clinic were destroyed in a massive air raid, the main hospital was captured by US troops, ambulances were prohibited from traveling into the besieged city and delivering patients in need of emergency care (the US also announced that any and all moving civilian vehicles were designated free-fire targets). Much of the city’s water and electricity supplies were cut off making “emergency care all but impossible, in the words of Dr. Hashem Issawi, and contrary to international law, soldiers were “empowered to destroy whatever needs to be destroyed.” In the razed clinic, US bombs took the lives of 15 medics, four nurses and 35 patients, according to clinic worker Dr. Sami al-Jumaili. The Los Angeles Times reported that the manager of Fallujah general hospital “had told a US general the location of the downtown makeshift medical center” before it was hit by US bombs. In a smoke-filled, corpse-strewn landscape of collapsed houses and soot-singed factories, a US captain, fresh from 13 days of “shooting holes in every building,” starkly noted that the only way to proceed is to “destroy everything in your path.”

    Indiscriminate destruction is a war crime in violation of international law as encoded in the Nuremberg Principles. One year later the “wasting” continues…
    ————————

    Max payne
    ‘The Chinese are savages, it’s still a far cry from “civilization”. Shieeeet you can dress a monkey up in a suit… it’s still a monkey.’

    Would applying lots of lipsticks turn a pig into human ?
    If this stands for ‘civilisation’,
    I’d like to know what’s barbarism ?

  127. @silviosilver

    What do you mean?

    Is this an ad populum or ad verecundiam attack on Ron?

    Does anyone know whether there is something analogous to karoshi in the PRC?

  128. Vidi says:
    @The Scalpel

    Did you notice the OP’s pseudonym?

    Heh, yes. But sometimes I can’t resist replying.

  129. DB Cooper says:
    @anonymous

    “You should go ahead and ask them [China’s minorities ] in private how happy they are to be living under a Chinese flag. ”

    The question has been asked and they are very happy. Studies done by Western sociologist has found out that China’s minorities, and that include the Tibetans and the Uighurs are more nationalistic Chinese than there Han counterparts. This notion that Tibetans and Uighurs are restless living under oppression is just another nonsense propagated by the West. But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.

    Listen to this podcast:


    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    , @anonymous
  130. Joe Wong says:
    @Skullcrusher

    It seems you are very resentful that you cannot rise higher than sergeant but you have to do all the hard work while the officers know nothing take all the credits.

    Has it ever occurred to you that the privates may have the same view about you as you view about the generals, i.e. you are just another layer of central planning that stops the world turning? You are a fine specimen of the one look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye.

    China is rising while the USA is declining; the bad mouthing the expats spewed out in China only shows the expats are jealous, resentful and fearful of Chinese achievements.

    • Replies: @Skullcrusher
  131. Joe Wong says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Perhaps it is you view of the world or your believe of humanity, but Chinese do not share your view. Chinese believe that we are now living in a rapidly changing world…Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @jbwilson24
  132. Alden says:

    I stopped reading after his third attack in Whites and the civilization our ancestors created. He probably has to write such things to be published. But since I and mine are White, I take attacks on Whites personally.

    Also, I remember the 1980s when numerous books and articles were written claiming Japan would soon rule the world.

    I wish China would create its own pension system instead of using America as its old age pension system.

    • Replies: @George Orwell
    , @Joe Wong
  133. Joe Wong says:
    @eah

    The guy manged the project got an Harvard MBA.

  134. Joe Wong says:
    @Che Guava

    Aiso stealing much tech, much on China’s high-speda rail is stolen from Japan, they put out tenders, but the only objective is theft.

    It seems the Japanese not only denying their war crimes they are also copying the bad habit of the American by claiming credit where credit is not due.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
    , @üeljang
  135. Alden says:
    @Joe Wong

    A Chinese diplomat assigned to the consulate in San Francisco told me about the horrors of slavery in Tibet including mutilating and cutting off limbs.

    He lived on tree bark soup during the great cultural revolution. His party came out on top when the great cultural revolution ended.

    I thought he was exaggerating the horrors of slavery in Tibet to justify the Chinese take over of Tibet.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  136. @Joe Wong

    I am not sure if you do speak for all Chinese, but let’s say you do.

    The zero sum mentality predates the Cold War and will not go away.

    This is because it is real.

    Wealth may not be zero sum, but POWER is.

    China becoming more powerful means relatively less power for my country. From my perspective, this is unfortunate. Of course this is positive from your perspective. This is why conflict exists.

    That said, there is a new dynamic–since 1945. Now there is the possibility of nuclear war. The risk of this appears so great that we are better off cooperating regardless.

    Thus despite my rhetoric, I am in fact more in favor of peaceful relations with China than the American mainstream.

    It seems to me that China will inevitably become more powerful than us, which greatly upsets me, but that the price to attempt to stop this is not worth paying.

    Best, as Trump says, to get a good deal.

  137. @Alden

    You would be a fool to think Japan’s economic situation is comparable to China.

  138. @lucidian

    No, nothing China has ever done is as sadistic and cruel as what the West does on a regular basis. A reckoning is coming and people like you should be ashamed and afraid of what your culture has to answer for.

    • Replies: @lucidian
  139. MEFOBILLS says:
    @therevolutionwas

    China has state banks. Fully 70 percent of their money supply originates at these large State owned banks. This is not the “fiat” private banking system of the West.

    China cancels Yuan debts, and this effectively puts debt free money into the supply. Also, China channels new Yuan money at industry. This is called industrial capitalism, invented by Frederick List, and Peshine Smith. Smith’s system was called the American System, and List’s system was used in Germany by the Kaiser and then later by Hitler. Hitler’s Germany was hugely productive and had development patterns similar to China. Japanese copied industrial capitalism and used it in Manchuria during WW2. The Japanese railroad engineers of Manchuria post war used a variant of Industrial Capitalism by using credit guidance windows. This then caused the postwar Japanese miracle.

    With industrial capitalism you get a virtuous cycle of investment then equity, then more investment then more equity. With debt based financial capitalism you get debt, more taxes, more debt. One is virtuous cycle, the other is spiraling downward. Finance Capitalism siphons off the productive surplus, and vectors it into financial markets, where it becomes a Casino of false signaling.

    An economic historian like me can easily see what China is doing. The fact that the West has been taken over by Finance Capitalism is because English/Zion won in WW2. Bad atlantacist and debt based money systems then fully jumped to America … the parasite jumped to a new host. This system of private debt money, and then usurious financial instruments traded in markets, is a fundamentally flawed economic model.

    China is not doing anything the West didn’t already try, it is just that these successful Western economic experiments were strangled in their crib by super predators who feared that their rent taking schemes would perish.

    China’s economy is fascist, in that it is a command system OVER private corporations. But, since the word fascism has a negative connotation, people are afraid to use it.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  140. Lin says:
    @wayfarer

    Tibet Situation Critical !!! except for Dalai’s boys who are fond of like spiritual/dharmic gay rape !!
    (historically about 1/3 of Tibet males were monks, later fortunately reduced by the Chinese gov)

    https://www.upi.com/Feature-Buddhisms-pedophile-monks/81841020273948/

    “..”In fact, when the Jesuits arrived in China and Japan in the 16th century, they were horrified by the formalized relationships between Buddhist monks and novices who were still children…
    …. this practice continued until well into 20th century,,,
    …We also know that generations of Dalai Lamas had their ‘favorites,….”

  141. @Another Realist

    India is a giant toilet bowl masquerading as a country.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  142. @Thales the Milesian

    I’m not attacking Ron. I like Ron, I think he’s great. I’ve been a fan of this site since its inception. But I am mystified by the inclusion in it of people like Michael Hudson and James Petras, whose views on finance and capitalism are inimical to Ron’s own. I think there is a real risk of conflating the racial, sexual and cultural realism that is this site’s drawcard with the leftwing idiocies spouted by the likes of Hudson, Petras, et al. And yes, deep down, some dark, suspicious side of me does wonder whether Ron isn’t attempting that conflation on purpose. I sure as hell hope not.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  143. @Daniel Chieh

    You just disqualified yourself from invoking machine learning. You obviously have no idea how many humans it takes to keep machine learning applications running.

    The great irony is that you Asia pumpers seem to have forgotten a lot of the lessons that have already been learned. Top-down command and control economies don’t work, for a variety of reasons. Adding ‘machine learning’ and other forms of decision making won’t change that. The failure of cybernetics and operations research when applied to urban systems is but one example of a legacy that Asians seem spectacularly poor at discovering.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Vidi
  144. @Joe Wong

    “Chinese believe that we are now living in a rapidly changing world”

    Well, the world has been ‘rapidly changing’ for some time now. This is hardly an earth shattering claim. See the steam engine or printing press.

    “…Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times.”

    Yes, all that peace that I see. The idea that ethnic groups are suddenly going to stop competing and start cooperating is the sort of nonsense that you would expect to see out of a left wing social work conference in Leipzig or Gothenburg.

    As for ‘development’ has become the trend of our times, it’s so vague that I’m not even sure what you mean.

  145. @hyperbola

    Wonder how “capitalist” Spain managed to build at least twice as many kilometers/inhabitant of high speed rail as China?

    They were probably forced on them by EU bankers and politicians in much the same way that Greece became indebted to the retard bastard$ for infrastructure that no one needs and few use.

    One can drive all over the country on highways that are barely used and that are in far superior condition to anything one sees in the US. They were likely built with loans from corrupt EU bankers imposed on the people by corrupt politicians over whom the people have no more control than we in the corrupt US have.

  146. @polaco

    And to call America libertarian-capitalist is ridiculous.

    To call it free and moral is also ridiculous. Ineffably so.

    The US, contrary to the standard myths (myths which will probably never die), was in fact never designed to accommodate a pure, generalized laissez faire capitalism. The tables were always tilted in favor of the collectivist capitalists who are masters at collectivizing risk while privatizing profits.

    The system was always designed to favor the big money crowd in various ways including direct and indirect subsidies and including special favors such as no bid contracts and bailouts. The collectivist part of it really took off under Wilson and as a result of WW1 to the cheers of the biggest monopolists and the US has been almost totally a centrally planned, de facto militaristic fascist state since Hoover and FDR and WW2.

    Required reading for anyone interested in myth busting is the source of this quote.

    Historians have generally treated the economic planning of World War I as an isolated episode dictated by the requirements of the day and having little further significance. But, on the contrary, the war collectivism served as an inspiration and as a model for a mighty army of forces destined to forge the history of twentieth-century America. For big business, the wartime economy was a model of what could be achieved in national coordination and cartelization, in stabilizing production, prices, and profits, in replacing old fashioned competitive laissez-faire by a system that they could broadly control and that would harmonize the claims of various powerful economic groups.

    A NEW HISTORY OF LEVIATHAN, Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State, EDITED BY RONALD RADOSH AND MURRAY N. ROTHBARD,1972, pp 92-93

  147. @Drapetomaniac

    You can take man out of the animal world but you can’t take the animal world out of man.

    That’s why man’s attempts at civilization are such kludges.

    Well stated. It’s also why I laugh at those who pat themselves on the back for claiming to be part of a civilized society. Even the “high IQ” ones must have low standards for the label, or they don’t understand what it’s supposed to mean.

    I also find it amusing that so many people who have neither the mental facilities to count their change accurately nor the moral integrity to care for a dog properly nevertheless feel qualified to have a valid opinion on the desirability of government.

  148. MChinese success is mostly West made as without massive Western investments and outright transfer of manufacturing base from USA and other countries China would not have chance to rise in such manner
    It lacked in every department, both resources, tech and human factor to achieve such rise on her own. Attempts by Mao and early Deng were quite I structure as real take off happened in 90s-2000 when it poured from the West. Now everything in stores is made in China… Why? Because everything was offshored. The whole project is also not sustainable long term and the scale is so huge because population size requires this. Same rates of growth with say 150 -300 mill in population would not have been as impressive. I also wonder how much of this activities is mere waste and debt without any long term benefits.

    • Replies: @Lin
  149. @Thales the Milesian

    Is this an ad populum or ad verecundiam attack on Ron?

    It’s neither, and your question is a textbook example of a false dichotomy.

  150. @DB Cooper

    But gullible Westerners believe it hook line and sinker because ethnic oppression is an integral part of Western cultures so makes so much sense for them.

    While that’s true, they seem to be astonishingly gullible for other reasons as well. Apparently it’s very satisfying to believe in self congratulatory mythology and delusions of superiority even if most of it is vicarious at best.

    • Replies: @George Orwell
  151. @Skullcrusher

    Skull.. your whole comment applies equally well to what’s going on in the US. especially the parts about corruption and lack of accountability.

    …but they will only beat us if we commit suicide so let’s hope we stop that process soon.

    The evidence seems clear that “we” (i.e. our collectivist parasitic rulers) have been busy committing “suicide” on we, the masses, for some time. If it were not for abundant natural resources, cheap energy sources, and creative thievery, all of which have been mostly squandered, the US would have gone completely “tits up” long ago.

    The process is a one-way street, I think.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  152. Joe Wong says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    You should know the belief that only the White can invent and only the White can succeed is a religious myth.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  153. Joe Wong says:
    @Alden

    Exposing lies told about China, correcting facts distorted about China, and clearing smear painted on China is not an attack on the White. Retelling the ugly part of the history the West neither discussed nor crictized is not an attack on the civilization your ancestors created.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  154. @jacques sheete

    In these troubling times, the only thing most Westerners can do is linger on fond memories of their ancestors’ past glory while denigrating the achievements of those who still dare to be ambitious and dynamic.

  155. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    >”India is a giant toilet bowl masquerading as a country.<''

    It was an even bigger toilet bowl when colonialism ended. It is getting smaller.

  156. @MEFOBILLS

    Every word you say here is true. Today’s situation between China and the US is very much like that between Germany and Britain circa 1900: China is the rising power, while the US has clearly peaked and is now in decline. Last time, the parasites were able to destroy Germany through war; but these days there are ICBMs. What are they going to do now?

    As far as China’s economic system is concerned, I would categorize it as a variant of National Socialism; or, if you prefer, a kind of Communism with a robust, for-profit export sector (the USSR never had that).

    • Replies: @Vox coyote
    , @MEFOBILLS
  157. @jacques sheete

    I tend to think of things as a race..to the bottom.

  158. @Seamus Padraig

    Thanks, this reality of our debt slavery needs far more promulgation. The real reason behind WW2.

  159. Joe Wong says:
    @Erebus

    Before 1947 there was no such nation called “India.” “India” is a western imperialist creation to enslave the Asians against the will of the indigenous people of South Asia, it is illegitimate alien and harmful to the Asians. The current “India” is an extension of its former colonial master, British imperialist, spreading their toxic divide-and-conquer discord among the Asians. Unless this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva get destroyed this toxic cancer will destroy all humanity with its regressive, inhuman and barbaric caste system.

    Half of the “India” is in armed struggles against this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva regime in New Delhi; it is time to support those freedom fighters to shake off the inhuman caste system yoke impose on them by the Hindutva.

    • Replies: @Malla
  160. @Alden

    Propaganda is always a mix of truth and fiction.

    That said, a ruling caste of men without families naturally leads to its expected abuses, even if you call them monks.

  161. @Jeff J. Brown

    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, but do you seriously deny the fact that the mindset of most Mainland Chinese people is bordering on sociopathic in nature? I’ve been all over the world just like you have, and I unfortunately lived in China for over a decade, and I have never, ever encountered any society in which pathological levels of inconsideration, boorishness, and selfishness are so pervasive.

    You’re right about the advantages of the Chinese political and economic systems when it comes to large-scale projects. It’s superior to the US’s broken system in which large companies and other wealthy groups continuously use the government as a tool to enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else — because at this point, almost every developed nation’s political system is superior to that of the US. Is it really that surprising, though, that the Chinese system along with lots of cheap labor is successful at doing what every other developed nation has already managed to do, albeit on a larger scale? I mean, construction workers can do a large portion of the building of bridges, buildings, and subway systems if you clearly tell them how to do it and make sure their tasks are small and simple enough for them to comprehend. These things are not that difficult if all the relevant ideas have already been thought up by others and you’ve got a limitless supply of workers who will work for low wages. Have you ever taught in a Mainland Chinese school? Have you learned Mandarin and sat down and tried to have intelligent, nuanced conversations with Mainland Chinese people? I’ve done these things in China and in many other countries, and I have tried to look for the good in Chinese people and to look for social differences that could create the illusion of impaired critical thinking ability, but I just can’t avoid coming to the conclusion that Chinese people genuinely are missing something important when it comes to both empathy and critical thinking.

  162. Do an experiment. Go to a Chinese restaurant operated by Chinese and observe the efficiency. Now go to any other type of restaurant and observe. Compare them. The answer to the question raised by the title is no. It’s a matter of the kind of people involved.

  163. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Another Realist

    >”India is hopeless. It won’t even get to middle income. India should never have become one country in the first place. Indians are erratic, non-logical people who think far too highly of themselves on account of the success of their diaspora. India is completely ungovernable.<''

    How do you know that before even being there? They have a billion plus people to govern with money and (on) land almost 1/4 the size of U.S. They are trying and are getting better at it every decade. Also you say they think highly of themselves on account of their diaspora. There are more indians who think highly of the west than they think of their own country. Thinking that 'we are not dumb' is not the same as 'we are smarter than every body else'. You are thinking that indians are thinking the later.

    Let me give you an example. A few weeks back this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_discoveries

    was posted as a response to somebody saying indians didnt invent anything. Now i posted that with the meaning that indians invented something only as a response to people thinking that they didnt. But if i say stuff like that or other indians say stuff like indians have good achievements in the west, it was a 'response' to comments like indians are 'incapable'. That is not the same as thinking highly of themselves. There is a difference. But if you still want to believe it, its your call. That said there are more indians in india and even in the west who think highly of the west than they think of their own country.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  164. Che Guava says:
    @Joe Wong

    IIRC, joe wong is a character in a Japanese-made video game. 格闘 (fighting) genre, I am still liking them.

    It may having some other connection for you.

    That the PRC govt. offers tenders on express rail, does not accepting any, then sucks up the tech., it is the simple fact.

    Their high-speed trains are looking like almost direct copies of Japanese designs.

    Your post was hostile, please refuting me in a polite manner, if you can.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Joe Wong
  165. Miro23 says:
    @1RW

    You forgot
    0) Being fought to a standstill by poorly equipped but highly motivated Koreans and Chinese in the Korean War.

    The Chinese were engaged in Korea, and they also fought the brief Sino-Vietnamese war in 1979, but in general the Chinese military have kept out of international conflicts while the US had the very costly Vietnam and even more costly $ Trillion Middle East wars.

    The Chinese seem to be following Trump’s maxim of investing in infrastructure rather than pointless foreign wars, and also, they don’t have AIPAC on their back telling them that Israel is China’s best friend, and directing Chinese $ Billions at the country, with Chinese armies ordered to destroy the Middle East.

    • Replies: @1RW
  166. @jbwilson24

    The role which I’m envisioning for machine learning is not specifically in its “decision-making” ability but rather in its ability to enable the creation of machines that acts as monitoring agents which replace roles previously occupied by humans(such human agents served as an impediment to centralization in the past). For one example, machine learning algorithms that have enabled systems to read handwriting have reduced the need for human tellers to act in such a role, bypassing the human component and improving recording accuracy in for example, cashing a check.

    One of the major challenges of centralization in the past was that information becomes essentially more corrupted at every level of transmission, akin to the game of telephone. But if information integrity is preserved, better decisions can be made top-down.

    Its hard to argue, at any rate, that history doesn’t show ever-increasing centralization of society along with the march of technology. The Soviet Cheka would dream to have as much information as, for example, Google(which is not even a government).

    The only disruption to this would be if, as Che said, that cheap energy ceases to be or alternatively if machine transmission of data ultimately have excessive negative externalities(like nuclear power plants as Che implied do); I don’t believe either will happen anytime soon.

  167. Joe Wong says:
    @Quartermaster

    If Duterte wants to win the war on drugs he must microchip all the Westerners in the Philippines, those fat pink skin pigs are harmful to the Philippines by running drugs as CIA subversion operatives and parasites sucking the Filipino’s blood.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  168. @Joe Wong

    It is not because of that. But basically you are very close. So far no Chinese geniuses ever.

  169. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Wong

    You are rightly correcting the mistakes told about your country. But then you turn around and do the exact same thing about india what some people here are doing about china !!

    • Replies: @denk
    , @DB Cooper
  170. @Jey

    France and Italy sell overpriced luxury goods to make some people feel good about themselves; Germany produces some interesting mechanic products but if Japan or even Korea could have the same single EU market as Germany does, I don’t think German goods would be competitive enough to compete against, say, Japanese cars, robots, cameras, korean TVs, or Taiwanese chips.

    Almost all true but per France. Unlike UK or Germany France DOES have indigenous and stellar aerospace industry (Rafale, Mirage, Dassault in general) and is a crucial contributor to Airbus , she also has a respectable space program and capability. So between some Nobel Prize laureate in theoretical physics, granted its importance, and a viable aerospace industry–the choice is kinda obvious. Agree per German cars–over-engineered, grossly over-priced reputational items in same vein as iPhone, do the same thing as others but for twice or thrice the price. Korea, for all its potential, I doubt will be able to produce world-class jet-engine, as an example. Germans, however, produce world class gas-turbines and diesel which makes Chinese-made analogues, well… it makes them Chinese-made. Per ratings, agree 100%–most of those are lame and faux-scientific creations of US “economic” schools and describe absolutely nothing of real substance and are rigged only for promotion of US products and influence. The same thing as Jane’s, once, a very long-long time ago–a respected military reference guide, which today is nothing more than advertisement booklet for US (and UK) MIC. Semiconductors are a separate topic.

    ecommerce

    It is a money-generating service. Important but merely a derivative of other, way more important, things. Again, between ecommerse and viable aerospace industry the choice is obvious.

    P.S. France produces completely on her own nuclear attack and strategic missile submarine fleet with, unlike in Royal Navy, actual French designed and produced SLBMs. A no small feat, if you ask me.

  171. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Conor Fields

    because at this point, almost every developed nation’s political system is superior to that of the US

    I would have agreed if you referred specifically to infrastructure where even third world countries can do better, but its very dubious otherwise – the usual example of Europe, for example. At this point, it should be obvious that European government systems have led to an almost unbelievably broken wage structure and stagnation – and this is in spite of basically riding on American coattails for defense spending. Minus Germany, the outlook for Europe is pretty bleak. To pick one example at random, Spanish unemployment for the youth reached 50% recently. A brief spurt of Finnish innovation in Nokia proceeded to self-destruct in a total level thanks to social justice parasites, almost immediately after they had any success.

    How would anyone argue that a political system of such enormous long-term dysfunction to be superior to the American one, which seems to be at least capable of fixing itself through an appropriate set of miracles.

  172. @Che Guava

    I’m curious if you think that finite resources specifically to cheap energy will be exhausted in say, within the next generation – you said that fracking is not sustainable, but why? Despite peak oil concerns, it seems to have been put off for quite some time.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
    , @Vidi
  173. @Sergey Krieger

    Greece was the center of Western art and culture – its enduring philosophy and ideas remain with us to this day. In a steady state universe, then Athens should be a prime creator of media as opposed to say, Hollywood. Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.

  174. @Daniel Chieh

    Or at least, Hollywood would be run by Greeks and their ethnic descendants.

    And we would be subjected to “My Big Fat Greek Wedding-XXVIII” movie-epic;-)

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  175. 1RW says:
    @Miro23

    You’re missing the point – the first US military failure, I call it a failure because the US failed to dominate the outcome – was the Korean war

  176. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    I agree. National Socialism. It is a successful model, but our ((friends)) have so hypnotized populations, that one cannot even rationally look at it, speak of it, or analyze it, without being labeled an anti-semite.

    The Chinese have no such guilt. A Jew labeling Chinese as anti-semites, would be laughed out of the room. And, as you say, Chinese have ICBM’s.

    A good parasite will tell the host what to think, what to eat, where to walk. A very effective parasite will even get the host to think said parasite is its child, to be protected at all costs.

  177. @Another Realist

    The US would never have developed if the titans of our industries, from Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt to Gates, Bezos, Jobs etc. did the same, by stashing away their wealth in Europe and moving to Europe en masse after getting rich in America.

    Actually, something of the sort did happen and it’s interesting that you should mention it. Maybe the dudes you listed aren’t guilty of that, but 19th century USA suffered its share of that sort of thing.

    To the corporate liberal, dishonest politicians and corruption in city, state, and federal governments were both ineficient and expensive. The reckless exploitation of natural resources was an inefficient use of a limited supply of raw materials. A dissatisfied labor force that was underpaid, harshly worked, and driven to strikes and to radical political action because its basic needs were disregarded meant extra production costs and—perhaps more important—costs that could not be calculated in advance. American basic industry could no longer tolerate the practices of the nineteenth-century type of robber barons who would hastily build a business, inflate stock beyond the earning capacity of the enterprise, bilk hapless investors, and flee with the proceeds before they themselves were caught in the falling wreckage.

    - DAVID EAKINS, Policy-Planning for the Establishment, A New history of Leviathan, Essays on the Rise of the American Corporate State , Edited by Ronald D. Radosh and Murray N. Rothbard, 1972, p 190

    https://mises.org/system/tdf/A%20New%20History%20of%20Leviathan_2.pdf?file=1&type=document

    I think there’s a lesson there.

  178. Joe Wong says:
    @Che Guava

    It seems you do not know about the Japanese. Japanese is a copycat, a thief and a pirate who have been stealing from China since their existence and from the West in the last few hundreds of years. Japanese steals from others and is painfully aware the harmful effect on the victim so they never give away anything to anybody, even if they agree to transfer technology at extortion price, they will transfer built-in flawed system to make sure the buyer cannot never threaten them.

    Japanese Shinkansen is a stolen technology from France. Chinese HSR is based on Siemens’. Chinese HSR patterns has surpassed the Japanese, and the Japanese will sue Chinese if Chinese uses their technology in tendering. Chinese has been winning HSR contracts around the world by beating Japanese expensive and inferior Shinkansen technology. Japanese simply does not have Chinese scale to improve their technology and the cost beyond the limits they reached.

    When Deng embarked on modernizing China’s economy, Chinese approached Japanese first for assistance, but the Japanese refused in an attempt to block Chinese modernization just like they did during the first Sino-Japanese war to cripple first Chinese attempt to modernize China. It was the overseas Chinese bootstrapped China’s modernization miracle and followed by the German.

    You should know Japanese is called unrepentant war criminal for a reason, while you should get the facts straight before trolling American and Japanese cold war rhetoric casually like matter of fact.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Che Guava
  179. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    There is a body of thought with regards to abiotic oil. The west uses petrodollars and depends on oil being scarce.

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.environment/x0udY6I5a38

    between 1951-2001, thousands of articles and many books and monographs were published mainly in the mainstream Russian scientific journals proving abiotic petroleum origins – all ignored by western governments and media. For example, leading expert V. A. Krayushkin has alone published more than two hundred fifty articles on modern petroleum geology, and several books.

    Russian mineralogists, oil explorers and each successive government since the dark days of the former Soviet Union have been unalterably upbeat that they’ve ousted the ‘peak oil, fossil fuels’ nonsense. And who are we to argue – they’ve got the money in the bank to prove it.

    As a result Russia is firmly ensconced as the world’s second-largest oil exporter and is becoming so preeminent in the field of oil and gas exploration and innovation that the nation is set to usurp the U.S. not as a military force, but as the world’s energy superpower for the 21st century

    Oil—Our Greatest Natural Renewable Energy Source

    Exploiting their cutting-edge technology Russia has successfully discovered numerous petroleum fields, a number of which produce either partly or entirely from a crystalline basement and which appears distinctly self-replenishing

  180. @Anonymous

    I’m dubious of India’s prospects due to the high fragmentation of the society, but I wish them well and if they can indeed successfully find a model to efficiently work with the highly disconnected segments of their population, it would be something to learn from.

  181. @Joe Wong

    The mutual Sino-Nipponese bashing is very tiring.

    Three hundred plus years of this is quite a lot.

    • Agree: Talha
  182. @Daniel Chieh

    Well, Wong was asking for this with him bringing so called white people thing. Regarding your extrapolations.both the West and China have been around for a long time. China is not exactly new kid on the block. Hence we already have some statistics and history and the West as Greece you pointed and later reincarnation showed clear trend in producing outstanding people who produced outstanding results. China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious peope have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs. It cannot be faked. Once China becomes new Greece of the old then we can talk. For now it is pure speculative extrapolations not backed by anything.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  183. @Sergey Krieger

    damn, I never thought the russian hate for china runs that deep :) are you typical of russians?

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Anonymous
  184. @Astuteobservor II

    I am actually Sinophile. Just stating obvious facts at least as I perceive them.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  185. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    I don think he is. But if he is, then it raises a larger point….iI guess it could be said that we live an era where people of every country in the world hate people of every other country in the world.

    I cant think of people any two countries liking each other. Maybe one or two countries exist like that, but that is out of 200 plus countries in the entire world. Every country hates every other country.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  186. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Sergey’s recent comment didnt appear on my screen when i started typing the above. But i think the point still applies.

    I mean people of various countries not govts :) People instinctively hate other who dont share their values, religions, language, ehtnicity, region etc.

    For example take a random african country and a random middle eastern country. Even if govts of those two countries dont have issues, there will me more likely than not some hatred for each other among the people of those two countries. Same with middle east- indians, or some random european country and the U.S etc

  187. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    I never tried to imply that I think the Tibetans and Uighurs are oppressed, just that it’s better to take it straight from the horses mouth. Those studies done by ‘Western sources’ were done in collaboration with Chinese sources. I’m familiar enough with how Chinese compile data to be at least a little skeptical. But thanks, I’ll take it with a grain of salt. I don’t have the time or energy to look into the veracity of those claims. Although I will admit that there could be quite a bit of truth to it.

    On the whole, I’m pretty optimistic about China’s future and their future role in the world. Last time I was there 5 years ago I was very impressed with how much of their cities and certain aspects of their culture seemed to already be at a first world level, despite having such a low gdp per capita. I’ve also noticed a similar pattern in Southeast Asian countries, especially parts of Thailand, but also in Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia as well. I’m also not as sour on India’s prospects as some other people are, but that will probably take quite a bit longer. In India’s case, it doesn’t help that many Western educated Indians don’t go back to their home country in an attempt to help speed up development there.

    However, China’s case is especially interesting due to the sheer speed and ease with which they pick up on Western technology and (positive) cultural aspects and mannerism, ect. It strikes me as though their economy has been, in a way, artificially depressed for a very long time. This is why I find it a tad annoying when I see progressives who are interested in China pretend that China’s recent success is due to the communist revolution and subsequent interventions. They like to paint China as a communist success story. Looking at Taiwan or South Korea, we already know that this isn’t the case. China’s success has taken off as soon as they began to embraced a similar style of capitalism (although, not the same) as their Asian neighbors.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  188. @Sergey Krieger

    China on the other hand while populated by intelligent and industrious people have not delivered in this regard. One simply can check all laws of nature, math, a step physics, engineering major breakthroughs.

    all of this, all the major breakthroughs happened before the modern china though :) the last dynasty was all about keeping the native population in control, nothing else mattered. it was a matter of survival for the last dynasty. and old china has some ground breaking inventions :)

    china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years :) this is what all the videos in the article was all about. the point of the article was about how much china has achieved in such a short time and if the trend continues, it will leave the west in the dust.

    it’s economy is already bigger than usa by about 15%. think about that for a few. numbers speaks volumes. you can’t spin that, well you could bring up the per capita spin :)

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Avery
  189. @Sergey Krieger

    J. Wong is mostly a troll and isn’t worth too much time.

    Hence we already have some statistics and history and the West as Greece you pointed and later reincarnation showed clear trend in producing outstanding people who produced outstanding results

    But hardly the same people, and it should be noted, hardly the same sensibility. It can be an improvement: I think that the Renaissance conception of Roman society was better than actual Roman society at least in terms of individualism, as the same conceptions of dignitas and gravitas were neglected.

    I also really do not think that modern China has the same culture as the China of yore, something of both promise and sadness to me, or even in many ways the same people – when millions of individuals die, it causes genuine population changes. At any rate – insofar as fundamental discoveries, I do believe that the low hanging fruit of that has already been exploited. But when it comes to other technologies, especially in application, China actually has been doing pretty well to name three areas: CRISPR research, quantum communication, and 3d printing.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  190. Vidi says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    You need to look further than merely the next generation.

  191. Vidi says:
    @anonymous

    This is why I find it a tad annoying when I see progressives who are interested in China pretend that China’s recent success is due to the communist revolution and subsequent interventions. They like to paint China as a communist success story. Looking at Taiwan or South Korea, we already know that this isn’t the case. China’s success has taken off as soon as they began to embraced a similar style of capitalism (although, not the same) as their Asian neighbors.

    Well, if you get to point out Taiwan and South Korea as successes from which China copied, I get to point out the Soviet Union.

    Yes, the Soviets (mainly Russia) were very successful for quite a while; and Taiwan and South Korea will be lucky to last that long. China definitely borrowed from the SU.

    I think it’s truer to say that China’s combination of mostly socialism and a little capitalism is responsible for the country’s rapid development.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  192. Yeah but they’ll never match our levels of diversity and inclusion!!

  193. @Astuteobservor II

    What I am trying to say is that China rise was not self made. Firstly assisted by Soviet union and then by usa and combined West. Imagine no help from either and where China would have been. Some note. 1921 Soviet Russia was lying in ruins and within 20 years was producing technologies that were better than those of the West.china has been at this since 1950 and it is still buying weapons from Russia. It is 67 years…

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  194. Avery says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    {china has finally caught up in some areas. the chinese did this in less than 40 years}

    Poster [Sergey Krieger] is correct: China didn’t do it on its own.

    If it weren’t for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.

    In the case of all three American knowhow – such as semiconductor factories – were transferred wholesale, and whatever they produced was allowed to be, well, dumped, in the US.
    Japanese were notorious for not allowing any American manufactured goods into Japan, while they had open access to American markets.

    Japanese, Korean, Chinese are hard working, intelligent people. But with the very important start given them by American consumers and American taxpayers, they could not have come this far this fast.

    And US/West never regarded China as an enemy: USSR and now Russia are regarded as an impediment to Globalists’ desire to subdue and run the world, so RF must be dismembered and rendered harmless. China minds its own business in its own neighborhood, and will not interfere with Globalist Neocons’ “work” in Middle East or Europe. So it’s allowed to profit from US consumer and grow and improve its industrial base.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Astuteobservor II
  195. @Daniel Chieh

    Indeed sad. Now China essentially looks like Western country with many aspirations shared. It is one of the point I was making stating that Chinese rise is not self made neither in terms of manufacturing much of which is US and Western Europe manufacturing base moved into China nor culturally as socialism ideas came from Soviet Union and current aspirations are western by origin.

    ” I do believe that the low hanging fruit of that has already been exploited.”
    This one I actually do not share with you. I actually had conversation last summer with my father in law who is very good at math, higher math I would say due to his background. We spoke about ancient Greece scientists and those of Renaissance. He is of opinion that those people were genuine geniuses as there was nothing at all. No foundation to draw upon.No previous knowledge. They reached to those conclusions and discovered those laws via observations, thinking and sheer genius. Why there is no Chinese among those people? Mostly it is people of Mediterranean with Greeks being the most pronounced. Then again Middle ages. I consider Tang the most open minded of all Chinese dynasties and my favorite with great prosperity yet. Nothing comparable.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  196. @Sergey Krieger

    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else. why would you even compare 1921 russia to china? even I can think of how long it takes to produce enough human capital in science and tech, especially if the start is from zero. your comparison is akin to comparing a PHD and a child. the child will obviously need time to grow and learn before it can compete with the PHD :)

    67 years is a joke right?

    When you are behind and you want to catch up quickly, what is wrong with learning and copying? you must first learn the existing knowledge before you can participate in discovery and creation right? this is k1-k12 and 4 years of college. but we can apply this to a country catching up easily. SU got a partner against usa, same with usa later on vs SU. usa gets profits, while china gets infrastructure. please don’t call it help. this is why my first comment was about you hating on china :) But now I know better, it wasn’t hate, but jealousy :)

  197. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Vidi

    and Taiwan and South Korea will be lucky to last that long

    Last how long? What is it that you suppose will happen to Taiwan’s and South Korea’s economies in the near future?

    • Replies: @Vidi
  198. Lin says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    ” Chinese success is mostly West made as without massive Western investments and outright transfer of manufacturing base from USA and other countries China would not have chance to rise in such manner..”
    That’s simply untrue. Just tell me how much western investment on labour intensive manufacture in china compared to internal Chinese investment?
    Do you have any idea how much does it cost to build an integrated steel plant(I mean together with the rolling mill, mines and rail transport set up) of 1 million ton/yr capacity or a coal or gas fired 1 million KW electric power plant? The figures I got are 1 -2 $billion. In case you aren’t aware Chinese steel capacity is something between 800 million to 1 billion ton, about 50% of the world’s total
    A nation like China doesn’t grow economically by making shirts or toys for the yanks. However, here I must state that china did import(and pay for)continuous steel casting tech from japan.

    That Chinese economical success is ‘mostly West made’ is simply untrue

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @MEFOBILLS
  199. @Sergey Krieger

    China actually had a well developed mathematics canon as well, I’ll have to find the source for you later. IMO, the primary difference was that China(and derived cultures) used an inductive method of analysis from the many to the one as opposed to a deductive method of analysis of reasoning from the one to the many. This could be useful in some ways, but was overall inferior as a method to finding first principles.

    An example of this contrast was the Greek reasoning of “wood” to be reduced to an atom” by ascribing a perfect essence of “wood” as a particle, which was to then reason to all products made of wood to have this essence. This could lead to practical error as all wood is not the same, yet the effort to attribute an indivisible and pure essence would lead to a great deal of discovery later on; the similar mindset of the alchemical goal of transmuting gold as a noble element by purifying base elements from lead didn’t result in the creation of gold(cleanliness and godliness does not split atoms), but did discover the still, whiskey, and other useful implements.

    On the other hand, Chinese reasoning of the world was holistic – any piece of wood was also due to the condition of the soil it was grown in, the region it was from, and so on. While often practically useful, this meant that most inventions would have to be discovered empirically and rarely cross applied; e.g. Qin chariots appeared to be using mass produced parts, but mass production would not become widely applied and in the ensuring chaos the notion was lost. As a system of thinking, it did lead to its own advances(and I think is sociologically, very astute), but was overall less useful for discovering first principles.

    There’s always Al La Wik incidentally on independent Chinese mathematics:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mathematics

    • Replies: @random rand
    , @Che Guava
  200. Vidi says:
    @Avery

    If it weren’t for US opening its vast and rich markets to Japan, South Korea, and China, all three would be just a little better than Vietnam is today, for example.

    About what happened in Japan and South Korea, I don’t know in detail. But with regard to the third country on your list, it’s China that’s sending huge amounts of manufactured wealth to the U.S. and getting dollars of likely little long-term worth in return. As I see it, the Chinese are heavily subsidizing the Americans now.

    Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction. China probably considers it a tolerable arrangement, but the price has been extremely high. I have no idea how long this will last.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Astuteobservor II
  201. @Astuteobservor II

    It is neither. I stand by my opinion that without Western investments and manufacturing transfer China would be now nowhere near its level. Now, it is you are talking toys. i did not mention anything like this. But China is state controlled economy which obviously used profits derived form selling other goods at the West to build heavy industries and machine making industry. But the source that allowed this was income form those industries which were transferred to china from the west and obviously mutual companies and investments.
    China is a big country. Obviously it needs a lot more of steel and concrete than countries with smaller population.
    Soviet Union was unlucky to have morons and traitors at the very top and China was lucky to have wise Deng. Luck is also important. But you saying that Russia was on the same level as other Western countries is not true. Actually Russia had about same percentage of peasants in population as China. In 1921 it was all irrelevant because Russia GDP was mere 10% of 1914 due to extreme destruction. China also got lucky that after 1945 there was no major war on her territory which actually happened with SU right when USSR was taking off and reached 2nd place in the world. Unlike China, there was no investments and manufacturing transfer into USSR. Whatever was needed had to be bought. Also, China started with copying and it has been copying for quite some time and still is copying after decades.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  202. Vidi says:
    @anonymous

    Last how long? What is it that you suppose will happen to Taiwan’s and South Korea’s economies in the near future?

    Both of these places have small populations and few natural resources. They will likely go down when the U.S. does, probably sooner.

  203. @Astuteobservor II

    you realize the russian empire was on par with european countries? especially education, tech and everything else.

    You mean like being 70% illiterate. You need to ask Anatoly Karlin, he will tell and even support his claim of how awesome Russian Empire was with colorful graphs. I agree with one thing, though, Russian creative and technical genius did begin to flourish in 18th Century. But structurally RI was doomed.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  204. Avery says:
    @Vidi

    You are correct about now.

    But some decades ago, as US – well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists – started transferring America’s manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America’s manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America’s workers and middle class were the loser.

    Globalist corporations were the winners, in that their costs were lowered greatly: Chinese employees were paid pittance; there were hardly any regulations as hours worked and such*; no visits from OSHA,……

    So, yeah: what I wrote above holds true, as far as China (…and Japan, and SK) getting a head-start thanks to America.

    {Since 1978, the flow of wealth has been from China to the U.S. and the flow of technology has been in the other direction.}

    Right, with qualifications.
    1) don’t know about the date, so won’t challenge it
    2) to whom has that wealth flow been to? certainly not to the American middle class or workers. US middle class is slowly but surely disappearing. we are becoming a nation of rich and poor, with a missing middle class.

    And at some point in the future, as Chinese learn from the flow of technology from US to China, they will no longer need US, and Americans will be the paupers……
    __________________
    * I am sure you have heard about the worker suicides at e.g. Foxconn (Apple’s sub).

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Miro23
  205. @Avery

    I 100% agree with you about japan and south korea, but not on china :) the chinese achieved what they have now in spite of us :)

  206. @Vidi

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @wrd9
  207. @Conor Fields

    It took me many years to figure out Chinese behavior versus the West, but here it is in a nutshell:

    Westerners are territorial individuals, who act lineally, wanting to go directly from point A to point B, and get out of my way, thank you.

    Chinese are social communitarians who act elliptically and holistically, using the path of least resistance, let’s both get out if each other’s way, and there’s no time to say “thank you”.

  208. @Andrei Martyanov

    see, I knew I was making sense :) 18th century is 200 years ahead of china. 70% illiteracy is not a problem as long as you have scientists and engineers already. what are the literacy rates of other countries at the time? that would give a clearer picture.

    when the west split the atom, china didn’t even start yet. even when nixon visited china in the 70s. it was still considered an agrarian country. agrarian to #1 economic power in 40 years is something. no matter how you slice it.

  209. @Sergey Krieger

    I stand by my opinion that without Western investments and manufacturing transfer China would be now nowhere near its level.

    I mean, how am I suppose to respond to something like this? how can you not have an opinion like this in today’s global economy where everything is connected? I mean this is obvious. what I was refuting was your claim of “help”. when it was basically business deals. I simply don’t understand how you can categorized those deals as help. your attempts at putting down china is what prompted me to write about your hatred and jealousy.

    luck has nothing to do with it. china played the geopolitics game well. having good leaders is not luck. look at trump, it is not bad luck that he is president. americans voted for him.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  210. @Vidi

    this arrangement is already dying. the AIIB is the signal this arrangement is ending. china is trying to grow it’s own consumer base to replace the american ones. once that is done, the deal is kaput. it is why anti china chatter picked up like crazy starting at the time of asian pivot :) it was all about keeping china down and make sure it stays as just a manufacturing base for the american consumers.

  211. lucidian says:
    @George Orwell

    No culture is without its warts, without its dark side. But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Anonymous
    , @denk
  212. üeljang says:
    @Joe Wong

    Please take note: Che is not Japanese.

  213. Vidi says:
    @Avery

    But some decades ago, as US – well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists – started transferring America’s manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America’s manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America’s workers and middle class were the loser.

    If we ignore the vast human misery, outsourcing was mutually beneficial: China got technology from the US, and the American elites benefited from the gross exploitation of Chinese workers (almost slavery). Many people here are saying or implying that the US has been extremely generous to China, and completely ignoring the exploitation.

    I am sure you have heard about the worker suicides at e.g. Foxconn (Apple’s sub).

    Yes. That was a consequence of the exploitation. China as a whole does benefit, but as I said, the price has been extremely high. I am seriously ambivalent about this.

  214. @Astuteobservor II

    I was not talking help, although it was :) Look, by doing what USA did it created huge competition and basically was major contributor to China rise. The underlying cause was greed to make more by transferring manufacturing to countries with lax labor laws and cheap labor. By doing this USA elites effectively destroyed own country long term prospects and helped China rise. Isn’t it plain as a day? Who in right mind would do that unless completely blinded by greed.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  215. @Astuteobservor II

    And who helped China to build her first modern manufacturing base? Who trained Chinese engineers and also helped in the beginning with development of the Bomb? USSR. Again, do you really believe China would have been where it is now without it and what followed later as investement s and as you say business deals from the West? I have serious doubts.

  216. @Astuteobservor II

    what are the literacy rates of other countries at the time? that would give a clearer picture.

    In accordance to Rubakin’s article “Literacy” from New Encyclopedic Dictionary of 1916, the spread (selected) was next per illiterate % for 1911:

    Russia–61.7%
    Serbia–49.6%
    Italy–30.6%
    Belgium–8.5%
    France-3.3%
    Holland–1.5%
    Germany-0.02%

    I think no comments are necessary. Russian Army prior to WW I had 33% illiterate recruits, followed by Italy with 10.8%, France 4.3% and Germany with 0.03%. From Russian Military-statistical Digest, 1912.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  217. @Sergey Krieger

    Role of the Soviet Union with Chinese heavy industry, energy and machine building sector is undeniable. In the end, they still fly their knock off versions of all Soviet planes, from Tu-16 to An-12.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Sergey Krieger
  218. Vidi says:
    @Jeff J. Brown

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.

    I didn’t know the cost of compensation was that high, but I am not surprised that China’s government would do it. It’s the communist way. It’s also the Confucian way, thousands of years old — it’s harsh at times, and occasionally corrupt (cf. the Ming dynasty), but it’s more often benevolent aand far-seeing.

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
  219. Eagle Eye says:
    @Joe Wong

    (4) when 2 Tibetan slaves meet each other for the first time, they greet by asking “Who is your master?” instead of “what is your name”?

    (6) [Tibetan slaves] had very little vocabulary and they speak in a babble-like chatter

    Your knowledge of subtleties of the Tibetan language as spoken by Tibetan slaves pre-1952 is truly impressive.

    Thank G-d China’s government does not engage in propaganda efforts, so we can enjoy unfiltered, factual information about China’s new subjects in Tibet.

  220. Vidi says:
    @Lin

    That’s simply untrue. Just tell me how much western investment on labour intensive manufacture in china compared to internal Chinese investment?
    Do you have any idea how much does it cost to build an integrated steel plant(I mean together with the rolling mill, mines and rail transport set up) of 1 million ton/yr capacity or a coal or gas fired 1 million KW electric power plant? The figures I got are 1 -2 $billion. In case you aren’t aware Chinese steel capacity is something between 800 million to 1 billion ton, about 50% of the world’s total
    A nation like China doesn’t grow economically by making shirts or toys for the yanks. However, here I must state that china did import(and pay for)continuous steel casting tech from japan.

    That Chinese economical success is ‘mostly West made’ is simply untrue

    I agree. China’s success was made mostly in China. For example, the vast investment in education didn’t come from the West. The huge labour pool was there no thanks to the West. And the extremely effective government was not Western.

    China cooperated in offshoring in order to buy some Western technology, and initially some products of Western technology (such as CNC machines). Beyond that, I don’t see much benefit from being exploited by the U.S.

  221. Eagle Eye says:
    @Vidi

    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns.

    Are you sure it wasn’t 61.72%? Or 59.83%?

  222. Vidi says:
    @lucidian

    No culture is without its warts, without its dark side. But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.

    That is probably true, but please don’t pretend that the West did all that with no help.

    For example, without paper and the printing press (both invented in China), the Renaissance would not have happened, and the West would still be in the Dark Ages. Without gunpowder (from China), the feudal system would still be prevalent, as the nobles would continue to be safe inside their invulnerable castles (no cannons blowing up the walls). Without the compass (invented guess where), the Age of Exploration would never have started. That’s why China calls these the Four Great Inventions.

    Isaac Newton said that whatever he achieved, however far he saw, was because he stood on the shoulders of giants. He was right.

    • Replies: @lucidian
  223. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Role of the Soviet Union with Chinese heavy industry, energy and machine building sector is undeniable.

    Very true.

    In the end, they still fly their knock off versions of all Soviet planes, from Tu-16 to An-12.

    They were good designs, so why mess with them?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  224. denk says:
    @Conor Fields

    Conor Fields

    Jeff, I agree that what Max said is highly inappropriate, [sic]

    Some wit once observed,

    Paradoxically,

    ‘Its those who speak with measured voice, follow exquisite ‘social etiquettes’,………. polite to a fault,
    its these ‘gentlemen‘ who are often capable of doing the worst kind of evil ‘

    [The original is more eloquent but you get the drift]

    —————————————————————————-
    Another case study of EVIL most foul…

    From a letter to general Michael Short…

    I now ask you, General:

    - Was it your son whose bombs hit a bridge in central Serbia crowded with traffic and pedestrians on a Sunday afternoon, where 17 people were wounded and nine people died, including “a priest with his head blasted away?” (Reuters, 30 May).

    Or was it your son who, four minutes after the initial attack, hit the bridge again just as help arrived for the surviving victims?

    - Was it your son whose bombs decapitated a Serbian child? “We found the head of a child in a garden and many limbs in the mud. But you don’t want to report that.

    CNN filmed the bodies, but they don’t show them on television” (The Independent, 29 April).

    - Was it your son whose bombs dismembered Serbian children making it almost impossible to match the children’s torsos with their arms and legs, although several were recognized by their sneakers? (The Guardian, 18 May).

    - Was it your son whose bombs buried people alive under tons of rubble from destroyed apartment buildings?

    - Was it your son whose bombs hit the convoy of ethnic Albanians reducing the victims to ashes, and then have your NATO pimp spokesperson, Jamie Shea, have the gall to deny that NATO pilots, possibly your son, were responsible for this atrocity by blaming it on the Serbs?
    [Robber crying robbery, standard anglo M.O.]

    - Was it your son who bombed hospitals, schools, orphanages, cemeteries, churches, 14th century monasteries on the World Heritage list, in a barbaric act to destroy Serbian culture, society and religion?

    ………………………….

    http://bit.ly/2yo8fjE

    Paradox indeed,
    Michael Short looks like the kind of guy who wouldnt jump queues at home
    and yet…….

    Is there a Mr. Hyde lurking beneath the veneer of Dr Jekyll , inside the anglo psyche ?

  225. @Daniel Chieh

    My operating theory is that people just tend to ignore and forget Chinese scientific developments because European science shot to the moon after the industrial revolution. This is understandable since European development was so great after the industrial revolution that the rest of the world might as well have been unchanging compared to it. Like comparing linear growth with exponential growth. But this leads to people making factual mistakes like saying Chinese science was always lagging with few inventions although for most of history this was not exactly true. The real question that should be asked is what are the reasons for the industrial revolution. I don’t think it is purely due to racial and cultural differences. Institutional and historical factors probably play quite a big role.

  226. Erebus says:
    @Another Realist

    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do.

    Fear no longer. There are many aspects of “Chinese characteristics” that I see as major obstacles to their being able to hang on to their successes for very long.
    China’s challenges are daunting, but they are for just about all of us. Will it eventually fall, even assuming it meets those challenges? Of course it will.

    It’s been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.

    I’ve heard that from both Chinese and Indian businessmen. That’s why the CPC gets support, and why most other governments in the world don’t. The US Congress has a what, 11% approval rating? Taking the money and getting nothing (or worse) done is at least part of the reason why Americans feel that way about their govt. Most Chinese corruption is quite innocuous, like tax accountants taking a ¥500 case of HongJiu (red wine) when she visits the tax office with clients’ statements as a “courtesy”. The national govt has been on an anti-corruption drive that has caught some big fish. The guilty get a pretty rude, well publicized comeuppance, and it’s having an effect.

    Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.

    You’ve got to be kidding, at least when it comes to Japan. As for Singapore, now that Lee Kuan Yew is gone, we’ll see what happens. I’m a big fan of Singapore, and especially of Lee, but my guess is it’ll slowly lose sight of his vision and Chinese characteristics will rise again.

    As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption.

    It’s not the corruption that I see as the main issue with the language. Corruption extends across cultures and languages so ubiquitously that one might view as a part of human nature. Rather, I see a number of systemic/structural issues with Pudonghua (Mandarin) that are impacting Chinese development and I think will continue to. That would require a rather long treatise to explicate, and this is hardly the place for it.
    Parenthetically, I read somewhere long ago that Mao proposed to get rid of the Chinese characters because he saw the limitations they posed. A traditionalist camp apparently forced him to compromise at the combination of Simplified Chinese and PinYin (Latin transliteration), though the latter was not officially adopted until 1979. No idea how true all that is, but PinYin, left alone, would have solved a lot of issues for China. Chinese children learn their ABCs in learning PinYin before moving on to characters and it seems to me it would be much more efficient to stop there and go on to Physics and Chemistry etc. Furthermore, PingYin is simple and purely phonetic, so would be vastly more transportable across linguistic divides.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @wrd9
  227. @Sergey Krieger

    want me to quote you? cause I can quote you directly from this comment chain? :) I usually don’t do that to people I take seriously since I expect them to be consistent. :)

    it was simply a transaction.

    cold war ally + profits, a mix of both. the miscalculation was that usa didn’t expect the chinese engine to rev up that fast :) agrarian country overtaking the usa’s #1 post world war economy? dream on. I can understand that train of thought. and you really need to check out the usa manufacturing numbers, usa didn’t lose anything to china, it just got more efficient at it.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Sergey Krieger
  228. @Sergey Krieger

    haha, so you are saying instead of mao, it was soviet russia that (help)built china’s foundation?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split

    In 1954, Nikita Khrushchev used trade agreements to improve the USSR’s relations with the Peoples’ Republic of China, acknowledged Stalin’s economic unfairness to China, and negotiated for the USSR to fund fifteen industrial projects, and mutual exchanges of technicians.[9] The trade agreements exchanged economic specialists (ca. 10,000 by 1960) and political advisors (ca. 1,500); and the PRC sent labourers to reduce the shortage of workers in Siberia

    In 1959, Premier Khrushchev met with U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower (1953–61) to decrease tensions with the West. To that end, the USSR had reneged an agreement to provide technical aid for the development of a Chicom nuclear weapon

    everyone got something out of it, please don’t use something as naive as “help” :)

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  229. @silviosilver

    Well, perhaps you can start a website the reposts Rush Limbaugh’s or Mark Levine’s world views.

  230. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @lucidian

    Actually, no other culture in the history of the world has done more harm to humanity than Western Europe.

    You should read non western view points before you make such ignorant statements.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  231. Vidi says:
    @jbwilson24

    The great irony is that you Asia pumpers seem to have forgotten a lot of the lessons that have already been learned. Top-down command and control economies don’t work, for a variety of reasons.

    Purely top-down economies may be too rigid to work well. Purely bottom-up economies tend to lack foresight and probably will also fail in the longer run. Somewhere in the middle, some mixture of top-down (socialism) and bottom-up (capitalism), is probably the sweet spot. This is what China has.

    I think that foresight, long-term planning, strategy — call it what you will — is most important, so the socialist part should predominate. As it does in China.

  232. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    … check out the usa manufacturing numbers, usa didn’t lose anything to china, it just got more efficient at it.

    On an absolute basis, that’s pretty close to the truth, although it has pretty much flat-lined since the GFC. On a percentage of GDP basis, not even close, but that’s true of almost every country.
    The big crash is mfg output vs mfg employment. Here things get a little more complicated. Automation plays an increasing role, but America “just got more efficient at it” largely by transitioning from primary mfg to final assembly of increasingly complex and integrated imported components. That is what accounts for the drastic drop in mfg employment starting at the time China joined the WTO. Pull those imported components out of the stats and you see that real output tracks employment fairly closely. That is, it shrinks dramatically.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  233. Miro23 says:
    @Avery

    But some decades ago, as US – well actually short-sighted Globalist US capitalists – started transferring America’s manufacturing base to China, at the expense of American middle class and America’s manufacturing base, China was the beneficiary, and America’s workers and middle class were the loser.
    Globalist corporations were the winners, in that their costs were lowered greatly: Chinese employees were paid pittance; there were hardly any regulations as hours worked and such*; no visits from OSHA,……

    It seems that there were a confluence of factors needed to make this happen in the US, China and in technology:

    UNITED STATES – By the early 1980′s the Neoliberal zeitgeist was the received wisdom of academia. The ideas were that “Everyone gained from world trade and specialization”, “Outsourcing freed up US labour for retraining in high tech sectors”, “the US was an advanced Post Industrial services economy”, “self interest benefited everyone” (Greed is Good). It was also the time of financial deregulation, allowing debt to keep up spending and replace employment income lost to China.
    Corporate (and other) Special Interests took over the US political process typified by the Clintons, accompanied by the collapse of civic society with Citizens being replaced by atomized Consumers addicted to very low priced products impossible to manufacture in the US.

    CHINA – In contrast to US leadership, Chinese leadership had national development plans designed to benefit the whole of society, Deng Xiaoping (“Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” – in other words National Socialism) centered around technical education, export led industrial development (making up for the lack of domestic demand) and following the earlier successful Japanese example. Necessary infrastructure was developed (ports, roads, communications) to build a Singapore style society ready to accommodate Western outsourcers needs – while acquiring their technology. The corollary was a non-conflictive foreign policy (other than Chinese issues like Hong Kong and Taiwan) with a focus on trade rather than war.

    TECHNOLOGY – The internet provided unprecedented possibilities for the control of international production, logistics and integration of demand/supply, fully exploited by US outsourcers and Chinese manufacturers.

    Andy Grove (ex CEO of Intel) was aware of the problem and wrote a fine article about it “How America can Create Jobs” (2010) http://www.openvms.org/http%3A//www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-07-01/andy-grove-how-america-can-create-jobs , which was predictably buried.

  234. @Astuteobservor II

    I am nothing but consistent. My train of thought is going in same direction it is yours that seems is going off the rails.
    When it comes to USA you really cannot expect them to think more than one step ahead, don’t you?
    Clearly they did not expect this. Regarding USA manufacturing numbers. It can be done of course but you do not have to because it is quite obvious in terms of the modern composition of USA labor force, state of US cities, infrastructure and shelves in stores. USA now and in 1970 is most probably different nations and so is China of course. There is no big secret. Of course USA would not move car, plane manufacturing to China. Those were less important goods, but the whole arrangement allowed China to start getting serious funds which otherwise China would not get to use them in building up own industries while whatever is produced now in China is not produced anymore in USA.
    Still cannot catch my train of thought?

  235. @Astuteobservor II

    Yes, it is cold hard fact that USSR not only helped to build Chinese industrial foundation, but also MIC foundation and yes started the whole process of giving China nuclear weapon along with the whole industrial foundation to do so. It was due relations finally falling apart that the whole process was not finished but a lot of job on that path was done. Regarding not fair trade arrangements you really have interesting view of what is fair and what is not. Unlike later Soviet leaders who did not care to give away resources taken form Soviet people , Stalin did care. Hence all agreements were set to have USSR compensated but in fair manner. Like giving credit with 1% annual interest. and having small profit for essentially helping China to become industrial power. It was done by the way when USSR was basically just out of WW2 with almost all of Europe territory requiring a lot of attention. Nobody ever was as generous with USSR or Russia. Not to be forgotten the fact that USSR by destroying Kwantung army created conditions and helped Mao to build up his forces in Manchuria for later victory over Guomingdang.
    Of course it was all repaid later in 1969. So please do not talk fairness.

    Here some good reading including nuclear wepaons:

    https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://statehistory.ru/2078/Istoriya-sotrudnichestva-SSSR-i-Kitaya-v-sfere-yadernykh-tekhnologiy/&prev=search

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  236. @Andrei Martyanov

    I think this is undeniable as well as Soviet uunion role in Mao victory and subseqisn’t formation of People republic of China.

    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
    • Replies: @Frank the Prof
  237. @Erebus

    Getting rid of Chinese hieroglyphs would be very difficult considering vast number of dialects there with the only way to understand each other is via all of the population speaking Potonghua or said Chinese characters. For me once was much easier to read in characters than in pinying. I had huge problem in the beginning to understand even the closest to dongbei dialect that of Sichuan. Guangdonghua was like another language. It would be interesting to read your opinion about Potonghua impacting China further development even in short form.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  238. colm says:

    Truman should have listened to MacArthur and nuked PRC at its infancy, so we would not be worrying China at all.

    • LOL: Che Guava
    • Replies: @George Orwell
  239. @colm

    Americans would never have the guts to ever nuke China and that’s why the Chinese don’t respect them. Mao Zedong definitely got one thing right, the West is nothing more than a paper tiger. That’s why they get away with their actions in the south China sea. They know that the worst Americans can do is sail their pretty little boats around and make a whole lot of bluster while still failing to win wars in the middle east.

  240. Che Guava says:
    @Joe Wong

    Sorry, Joe,

    You are so wrong, the 新幹線 (bullet train) between Tokyo and Osaka was the world’s first true high-speed line, if we are to defining ‘high speed’ as much faster than a conventional express.

    I can’t be bothered to answering your many incorrect assertions.

    You are having very delicate feelings and misinterpreting me.

    Two of my closest friends are chinese, one, an older lady, from Taiwan, who was getting automatic citizenship because her father was in the Imperial Army, the other, a younger man, orphan, from the inner mainland PRC (doing the more boring sort of coding for WWW sites, he is saying it is boring himself).

    All I was saying in my comments (one originally, two after server breakdown) were simple facts, indusputable.

  241. Unfortunately Jeff Brown has no comprehension of what capitalism is. This article is just ignorant in the extreme. He just keeps on spewing out that there is this capitalist West which can’t keep up. It’s true that the West can’t keep up and is pretty much finished, but the West today has nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism in a nutshell, means free-trade and hard money (I don’t have time for an in-depth examination here obviously, but for those who at least wish to understand the theory of free-trade and hard money I suggest Part II of Human Action, by Ludwig von Mises. At least then you will have a comprehension of the theory of a free market economy rather than a deranged fantasy). Today we have neither free-trade nor hard money. Who is not aware of this? Capitalism has nothing essentially to do with imperialism. They may coincide. They may not. Do you really believe that the history of the conquistadorial human race, from the Sumerians, the Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans, Chinese, Mongolians, Tamerlane, the Ottomans … You name it, weren’t imperialists? There’s no common theme of capitalism in there. The only common theme is that they were all humans. It’s not very nice, I admit, but they all did it. The Western world today has long given up on capitalism. We have no free-trade, we have massive government regulation, not to mention education (indoctrination), throughout the economy and the financial system, central bank i.e. GOVERNMENT directed inflation, is nothing more than a government organized counterfeiting cartel. The Western world today is much closer to feudalism than free-trade and hard money.

  242. @Vidi

    They were good designs, so why mess with them?

    They were, but An-12 is obsolete design today by any measure. TU-16 theoretically can still fly if is used as a carrier of cruise missiles, granted avionics and engines (!!!) are up to date.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  243. Che Guava says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Daniel, of course I am not knowing.

    However, fossil fuels are not to last forever. One, two, three, four gen’s, at most, it will be over. Human locusts are pushing population up and up, before you are noticing, it will be 10.000,000,000, it is already almost 80% of that … and most of the growth in populations are from
    where most are retarded, and from the most retarded among them.

    Although there is that theory that fossil fuels are to flowing up from the magma, no evidence for it.

    ‘Fracking’ is obscene on at least three levels. In no particular order,

    i. it is the last-ditch effort,

    ii. it is ruining and poisoning water tables, already under stress,

    iii. it is wrecking geological structure, enough that many places nowhere near fault lines, but where (as of now, minor) ‘fracking’ is conducted, are to experience earthquakes on the lower end of the upper half of the scale.

    I would expecting the energy budget (I/O) to also be inefficient.

    • Replies: @Greg the American
  244. @Sergey Krieger

    Russia was mired in the middle ages until Peter the Great. He did a lot of copying and imitation of the western European powers, including importation of brain power. Countries in catch up mode will always appear to be copy cats.

  245. @Erebus

    The big crash is mfg output vs mfg employment.

    I attribute this to technology. china is just the perfect scapegoat. and even china doesn’t make the parts, it just assemble them, like you stated. the best example I can think of is iPhone. so, your argument falls flat, sort of.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  246. @Andrei Martyanov

    didn’t have time to search for sources last night, but now I do :)

    http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0014/001462/146208e.pdf

    chinese illiteracy rate at 1949 was 80% :) picture clearer right? :) china was like a child compare to PHDs in the west. I stand by this comparison.

  247. @Frank the Prof

    hehe, don’t ruin their “pat the backs train”

  248. @Sergey Krieger

    I am collapsing the 2 comments, too troublesome to reply to two at a time :)

    @240

    When it comes to USA you really cannot expect them to think more than one step ahead, don’t you?

    please, like just please. your horse is so high, it is reaching outer space .

    let me save you the google, usa didn’t lose anything in manufacturing :) american planners aren’t as stupid as you think. I mean, who cares about some toy, textile factories? hell, even iPhone assemblers? using china as a factory was the plan, outsourcing pollution was the plan. it still is the plan. china trying to change and climb the ladder is not the plan, hence asian pivot.

    @241 let me get this straight, a few years of russian techs in china in the 1950s = laying the foundation for china? I can understand if you were saying russia was a part of it(see the difference?) but saying russia laid the foundation for china, hahahahaha.

    generous, like carrying everything not nailed down from manchuria back to russia generous? :)))

    Help is a very naive and arrogant term :)

    The apogee of the nuclear cooperation between Beijing and Moscow was June 1958, when the first experimental nuclear reactor on heavy water, built with the active assistance of the USSR, was put into operation at the Scientific Research Institute of Atomic Energy of the Academy of Sciences of China. Speaking at the solemn meeting dedicated to this event, the Deputy Premier of the State Council, Marshal Ne Rongzhen said: “We warn the US imperialists that they will come to their senses, since in the present era nuclear weapons are by no means their monopoly.” At the same time, the construction of an experimental cyclotron was completed. “These two installations are the result of the great and invaluable assistance that the Soviet Union rendered to our country in its scientific and technological development in the field of atomic energy.The completion of the construction of facilities means the entry of China into the era of atomic energy,” wrote the Beijing weekly ” Friendship”.

    you meant this right? entry is entry, not like you guys help them with the bomb like you stated :)

    this is the guy that was instrumental to china’s nuclear program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  249. lucidian says:
    @Vidi

    China has definitely had some impressive episodes in its past. But they always seemed to squash them afterward, in their insular, incurious way. It is lately, by adopting Western techniques, that they finally emerge onto the world stage, and out of their closed chamber of mirrors.

    The Silk Road has always been a deep trove of history for my studies, and a powerful symbol as well. Europeans had to travel halfway around the world just so their food wouldn’t suck. Europe was eager for Asian spices and wares, China was eager for Europe’s gold and silver. Islam squeezed the overland trade, so Europeans took to the seas, and the rest is history.

    I love that quote from Isaac Newton. And I love the spirit he exemplified, which, from my perspective is uniquely British/Western. There is a reason that tiny Britain came to dominate the planet. Scientific curiosity had a lot to do with it. It is culture that I’m talking about. Not any specific invention. Curiosity.

    China has “Four great inventions”. Western Europe/America has four thousand.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  250. @Frank the Prof

    Countries in catch up mode will always appear to be copy cats.

    True to a certain degree until they begin to form own scientific, engineering, military, artistic etc. schools. And here is where a dramatic difference between China and USSR/Russia becomes different. Just to give you an example: from the Wright Brothers’ first (powered) flight to WW I–11 year at all–to Igor Sikorsky’s 85 first genuine “strategic” bombers built in Russian Empire, granted with Western engines, to Zhukovsky, Tsiolkovsky to 1942 (with interruption for WW I and Civil War) with a plethora of outstanding front-line fighters from Yakovlev aircraft to Lavochkin and MiGs. Russia/Soviet aerospace school from the get go was enormously innovative and remains such till this day leading world in key cutting edge technologies. Now, comes the question–but these were Russians who were constantly in some kind of conflict and non-stop sanctions, including Jackson-Vanik. Where is China in all that? Huge sums of money, access to both Russian and Western technologies. Result:

    1. No good, forget outstanding, Chinese jet engine;
    2. No good commercial aircraft with COMAC 919 IIRC (which is old design) making only two flights.
    3. Wide body is named CR 929 (China-Russia) with all design and engines coming from Russia, with China doing mostly integration work.

    This is just from the top of my head. The question–WHY so? Mind you, since 1950s we live in the world of mass electronic communications, since mid-1990s it is truly global world of ideas. 2017-1995= 22 years, where is the beef? Chinese are not stupid people, in fact there are pretty damn bright and capable people, some excellent scientists, and yet…

  251. lucidian says:
    @Anonymous

    Fascinating reads, both links. There are no doubt many smart people among the Japanese and Chinese, and much to be proud of. My central point is that creativity and obedience are opposite. Inventions are invented by people who question authority and convention. Japanese and Chinese cultures emphasize obedience and thus suppress creativity. Who knows what could have happened if their cultures were not so focused on conformity?

    Time and time again we’ve heard of inventions that were suppressed or forgotten in Chinese history. It is the culture that does that, not the individual. Western culture, by emphasizing the individual (imperfectly, to be sure), has unleashed far greater human flourishing than any other culture.

    Some of the inventions listed in the Wikipedia articles are silly, some are great. But stacked against the West’s inventions and discoveries, the lists are puny. So, it’s relative. By Western standards, China has been far less inventive. And I expect it will continue to be so, unless the West continues down the road of self-hatred. To be sure, there are many who would prefer that course, not the least of whom is the Chinese.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  252. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @lucidian

    Its true, we’re all better off the the Western invention of postmodernism. The West is innovating itself right out of existence, and trying pretty hard to take everyone else with them.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  253. @Astuteobservor II

    I was right about your train. Anyone who thinks that usa in term of manufacturing lost nothing really is driving in wrong direction. Regarding Soviet help laying the foundation of Chinese manufacturing and MIC base it is the fact does not matter how much cute belleyristics you use. Have a nice weekend.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  254. @Astuteobservor II

    Yeah, keep buying the con. The Chinese here will always tell you they get rich by government compensation and other BS. I’ve even heard businessmen in Asia explaining to me that the Chinese they do business with tell them they were farmers in China and got rich when the government paid them for the land. What a joke! China is a communist country. As The Economist once explained, no one owns the land in that country. The farmers certainly do not, many simply have their land seized by county officials for development, while being paid an apartment as compensation. Even when you buy a house in China, you do not own the land, you technically only lease the land from the government for a period of 30 years. All the rich Chinese you see around here are corrupt, either corrupt government officials who take bribes or corrupt businessmen who give bribes, massive bribes. Even the NYT had a front page expose last year with the headline, “Wanted in China, Living the Good Life in the US”, profiling many rich Chinese living in Miami, LA, Seattle, who were wanted for corruption in China and hiding in the US. The Economist often refers to the “Naked Officials” of CPC and write about the factory owners who shut down their factories and skipped out of the country in the middle in the night, owing months of backpay to their employees. China is corrupt to the core. Some astute observer you are.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  255. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The USA just bombed Somalia. Take that China. Our communist military is better than their communist military! USA! USA!

  256. @Sergey Krieger

    haha, I doubt you can comprehend any train let alone mine :)

    have a nice weekend :)

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  257. @Andrei Martyanov

    come on now, how fair is it to compare a strategic bomber air frame(minus engine) from the 1910s to 4th and 5th gen jet engines? please don’t tell me you are trying to insinuate that countries were sharing jet engine tech with china in the last 22 years? I know russia is selling engines to china, but the design and know how too?

    and why the focus on this one aspect? it is pretty well known chinese jet engines are about 20-30 years behind the bleeding edge tech. are you trying to use this as a sweeping sign for china?

  258. @Another Realist

    right, I shouldn’t trust people I know for over 15 years, but trust your retarded, illogical ramblings instead :)

    • Replies: @Another Realist
  259. @Anonymous

    damn, I thought I was pretty ruthless in some of my attacks, this is just straight up brutal. :)

  260. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    and you should complain ?

    India hasnt seen an anti-Chinese alliance that it doesnt like.
    Bharat relish its role as uncle sham’s new ‘deputy’ in Asia against China,
    In reality, its just a whitey’s bitch.

    http://www.atimes.com/france-ready-join-indias-anti-china-front/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  261. denk says:
    @Another Realist

    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do. [sic]

    What bloody crap !
    For reasons best known to themselves,
    Anglos viewing Chinese thru jaundiced eyes is the norm,
    Just look at this thread dude.
    Godfree Roberts/Jeff Brown are the exceptions !

  262. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    They were, but An-12 is obsolete design today by any measure. TU-16 theoretically can still fly if is used as a carrier of cruise missiles, granted avionics and engines (!!!) are up to date.

    No worries. They still work, and that is what’s important.

  263. denk says:
    @lucidian

    Sounds like Chinese government talking points. Chinese are not a warm people.

    Every Chinese person I have met is cold and aggressive.’

    Many Chinese I met are warm and friendly.

    I guess it all depends on your own persona,
    Birds of the same feather….

    Every culture has its warts, but China’s are massive, far off the scale of anything any Western country has done. China killed tens of millions of its own people under Mao only a few decades ago. ‘ [sic]

    Some Chinese ‘dissidents’ peg it at 100m,
    This seem to be the most ‘authorative‘ story ,coming from a Chinese ! [sic]
    In other words, 100m killed unecessarily,
    by the murderous fukus grain embargo.

    ‘No culture is without its warts,

    FFS,
    Spare us your bloody tiresome disclaimer,
    especially when your warts have turned into deep lesions.

    .

    But the culture from which I am descended (Western European) is, on balance, one of the great benefactors of the world. More boats have been lifted, more tedium eased, more disease cured, more people set free, more squalor eradicated, by Western Culture than any other force in human history.’

    No wonder they say whiteys have such thick hide, not even a D.U. shell
    could punch thru `!
    hhhhhhh

    Western ‘liberation’ of the third world ,
    exhibit 1/10000…
    The Contras.

    *I don’t mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

    This is nobody’s propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they’ve happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras.
    The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters‘. He says they’re the moral equivalent of our founding fathers.
    And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.

    May be he got a point there !
    uncle sham was cursed at birth see,
    A professional arsonist.
    hehehehe !

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4069.htm

  264. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    India actually get the reverse treatment of what the West treat China. India is viewed by all of its smaller neighbors as a bully, and rightly so. And India is a land grabbing expansionist hampered only by its lack of hard power that is unable to project beyond its immediate neighbors. The Western media never reported on this.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  265. Vidi says:
    @lucidian

    China has “Four great inventions”. Western Europe/America has four thousand.

    China has thousands of inventions too; they’re so integrated into your life that you don’t notice them. Do you know that the dinner fork was invented in China? So was dental floss. And so was the seed drill; by forcing the seeds into the soil, the drill prevented birds from eating the seed and hugely improved the yield at harvest time. And these are only a few of the many minor innovations from China — minor compared to the four great ones. See Science and Civilisation in China by Joseph Needham. But don’t expect to take it from the library — it’s thousands of pages long, in many volumes.

    China has definitely had some impressive episodes in its past. But they always seemed to squash them afterward, in their insular, incurious way. It is lately, by adopting Western techniques, that they finally emerge onto the world stage, and out of their closed chamber of mirrors.

    The Europeans were just lucky. They benefited from the four great inventions from China, and from a few of their own as well (the scientific method being probably the most important). A minimum number of fundamental innovations may be necessary for a civilization to take off. China had almost enough, but not quite. The Europeans lucked out.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  266. Once again I’m shocked at how stupid all the smart people on Unz are. What are governments for? To make big monuments, public works, pyramids, Grand Coulee dam? Ok, great, and China does it better than supposed capitilism according to our author.

    Who the F cares? Not me.

    I live on 100 acres in the country, I have solar power and 5 homeschooled children. I drink beer, smoke cigars, and plow my blond wife every night. It’s what I want.

    Which government “system” backs off just enough to let me live in liberty.

    Beware the authors’s measure of what a success means. Maybe he’s right, maybe China is great. Slaves can build some cool stuff for sure.

    What are your personal dreams? Better here, or in China?

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  267. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Where is China in all that? Huge sums of money, access to both Russian and Western technologies. Result:

    1. No good, forget outstanding, Chinese jet engine;
    2. No good commercial aircraft with COMAC 919 IIRC (which is old design) making only two flights.
    3. Wide body is named CR 929 (China-Russia) with all design and engines coming from Russia, with China doing mostly integration work.

    This is just from the top of my head. The question–WHY so? Mind you, since 1950s we live in the world of mass electronic communications, since mid-1990s it is truly global world of ideas. 2017-1995= 22 years, where is the beef?

    China has basically just started in military technology; I don’t expect instant results. The Soviets invested a huge percentage of their economy on the military, so their weapons were developed rapidly. China isn’t going as fast.

  268. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    … china doesn’t make the parts, it just assemble them…

    That’s just bollocks. You’ve obviously never been there. I guess I was hallucinating every time I thought I was visiting one of the literally 100s of foundries, casting houses, plastic injection factories, machine and metalworks, etc, etc, etc I’ve been in.

    If “the best example (you) can think of is an iPhone”, then you haven’t given it any meaningful thought at all. The iPhone’s an outlier, and bears little relation to Industrial China. In any case “China” doesn’t assemble iPhones. It is assembled at Foxconn (Taiwanese co.) on a grandfathered deal Foxconn made with the local DongGuan govt some decades ago when DG was looking for employers. A number of big electronics assembly houses moved to DG under the same/similar deal from Malaysia, Taiwan, Japan, etc. They’re now moving out to lower costs, and because DG wants to move towards more value added industries than assembly houses offer.
    BTW, Foxconn assembles the iPad as well, and I’ve been in the plant (or, 1 of them) that has rows of CNC milling machines (all Chinese) billet machining the iPad’s back cover 24/7, so “China” makes at least 1 of the most expensive parts in the final product.

    Within 3 years of China joining the WTO and getting MFN status, America’s mfg employment dropped 20%, while its mfg output rose some 5-7%. Are you seriously trying to tell us that America re-tooled and automated 1/3 of its industrial plant in 3 years? If you are, you’re manufacturing reality.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  269. @Che Guava

    “Fracking is Obscene” Really?

    I think spark plugs and axial fans are obscene, but to each their own technological gross out.

    Given history, let’s double your 1,2,3,4, generations till doom to eight.

    Assuming circumstances don’t overtake us (nuclear war, AI, bad karaoke), then;

    Any chance of something technological happening? Say, efficient solar panels? Room temp superconduction? Decent batteries? Cold fusion?

    I’m no futurist, but I’ve heard futurists and they’re pretty dopey.

    100 years ago there really weren’t refrigerators, a couple cars maybe.

    You must think you’re a smart guy. If only you were king…

    Anyway, I vote to give it a couple generations before we voluntarily cut off our energy penis.

    Prosperity solves these problems, including your population reference, self inflicted poverty will serve nothing you desire.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  270. Erebus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The question–WHY so?

    From my observation, the culprit is language, and the Weltanschung-culture that every language forms, and is reinforced by, the people that communicate in it. This is a gross over-simplification of course, but the answer to your question lies somewhere in neurolinguistic-cultural complexity.

    Chinese was “frozen in aspic” for a very long time, along with Chinese culture. A rich merchant’s house from say 500 yrs ago is indistinguishable to the layman’s eye from his analogue 1500, or 200 yrs ago. The architecture, the floor plan, and even the decorations may as well have been made by the same builders. Even today, an educated Chinese person can read, say Confucius in the original, whereas it takes a scholar of English literature to read even Shakespeare, never mind Beowulf, in the original. To an ordinarily educated person, Beowulf might as well have written in Akkadian.

    As I mentioned in #231, Mao tried to break that die, but fell short. Or so the story goes.

  271. Alanking says:

    Since some people always bring up Tibet when discussing China, i might as well shine some light

  272. @Joe Wong

    Mr. Wong – Instead of projecting your own (stereotypically Chinese) insecurities onto Westerners, could you at least entertain the possibility that I am just reporting what I have observed honestly to the best of my ability without either malice or envy? China IS rising and the US IS declining, but China is rising because you started so far in your self-inflicted hole that you had no where to go but up, and the US is declining because we are committing suicide in slow motion by abandoning the principles and culture that led to our unparalleled success.

    How can the West be jealous or fearful of Chinese achievements? There aren’t any. China’s achievements in the last 100 years consist of murdering and ruining the lives of more people (almost all Chinamen) than anyone in history, wrecking its own culture; and then badly copying the West to try to catch up, while simultaneously engineering its own future demographic collapse along with the world’s biggest real estate bubble.

    Face it. No matter how right you think you are, you will always be wong.

    • Replies: @denk
  273. @Vidi

    china’s biggest problem was it was too big for it’s own good. mass communications and transit is needed to govern a country of that size. the govt had nothing left after just trying to govt the country and keep revolts down. my best guess as to why it was so inward looking.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  274. @Erebus

    why the focus in just those 3 years? shouldn’t we look at the complete picture? such narrow focus eschews the result. and my google fu is still strong as ever.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/25/most-americans-unaware-that-as-u-s-manufacturing-jobs-have-disappeared-output-has-grown/

    american mfg is completely fine. china is just a scapegoat. also a great talking point for politicians during elections. and the myth is born.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Erebus
  275. @Erebus

    A Mr. Conor had a similar linguistic observation in his comment. I have thought that language greatly limits China, probably because characters limit vocabulary limiting thoughts. It is almost like there are certain thoughts it is hard for the Chinese to think. Would love to read an explanation of influence of language by you or anyone. Fire away.

  276. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    >”India actually get the reverse treatment of what the West treat China.””And India is a land grabbing expansionist hampered only by its lack of hard power that is unable to project beyond its immediate neighbors. The Western media never reported on this.<''

    Wrong. India actually lost land.

    You dont see indians talk about what they think china did as much as chinese talk about what they think india did. Why? Its almost always chinese talking sh*t about india than the other way round. Most of the time its chinese who start it. Why?

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  277. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    And china also has seen it. Dont you think we dont know it? And india is only going towards US. because of china. China has been encircling india since years. China also gave nukes to pakistan (its like india giving to nukes to taiwan or japan). So ofcourse india is going to be going to cautious about china.
    It would be stupid not to be after all the above.

    That doesnt mean chinese or indians come on online forums and talk bad about each other. Esp when both countries are already doing this dance.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @denk
  278. Great peace about China’s economic wonders! I am a total China outsider, but I suspected this for some time.

    The colonial EU and US no longer have the technological monopoly and IQ: China’s flying past!

    Do not expect most UNZ readers to believe this. :D

  279. @Astuteobservor II

    This is your train of thought so to speak. No doubt US manufacturing became more efficient and USA also gave China the nose to hang USA high and dry. Whatever USA was planning backfired. Nobody is doing things that USA has done to create conditions allowing rival to rise. Obviously toys manufacturing for a sake of argument of which you are so fond of was transferred with other things which ultimately gave China what China lacked money for which the rest can be bought. Obviously China was not going to stay assembly line for USA forever and had own plans in place. Now USA can enjoy outcomes of thorough planning and foresight USA is so famous for.

  280. @Erebus

    The structure of Chinese spoken language and tones that are used makes use of characters required. We were discussing this back in 1986 at classrooms. Despite all efforts pingying cannot be substitute for characters. We studied simplified characters but later when we got to wen yan standard characters knowledge was required with ability to read each character. Yes, one who knows characters well can read Confucius in wen yan. Chinese stuck with their language, hence this is objective thing and if your theory is right not sure what solution would be. But you pretty much summarized everything nicely about things being about same over time in China.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  281. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    >> China has been encircling india since years. China also gave nukes to Pakistan<<
    That's nonsense. The sino-hindu quarrel originated from Nehru's 'forward policy' ,attempt to inherit the british imperial legacy regarding the unilaterally drawn McMahon Line and grossly self-inflated ego. Maxwell Neville's 'India China War' has detailed account of this. Tell how can China be benefitted by encircling India. Chini Hindi Bhai Bhai !!
    THERE'S SIMPLY NO PROOF CHINA SUPPLIED NUKES TO PAKISTAN

    Or the Other hand, its well known the first known hindu nuke explosion in 1974 used uranium from a Canadian Candu reactor supposedly for peaceful power generating purpose, thus violating treaty signed between Canada and Hindustan.

    Just like a 4'10" ugly duckling putting on padded bra and 6" high heel shoes, claiming she will take part in a beauty pagean while accusing the belle next door of having plastic surgery.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  282. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Another Realist

    Malaysia’s an invalid comparison because it’s corruption is race-based. As soon as the British left, the Malays abused their voting majority to monopolise political power and government positions. They then found that despite all of their winnings the Chinese were still racing ahead due to their inherently superior abilities. So then they needed to introduce more official corruption (affirmative action, guaranteed university places, grants for Malay companies, housing discounts, etc. etc.) and also created an atmosphere in which unofficial corruption became ok. A Malay policeman has no moral troubles shaking down foreign workers for the whole of their week’s wages because they feel it’s their country, their land, and therefore their right to act in any way they please. Equally, a government worker is happy to supplement their salary by taking bribes from (mostly Chinese) workers in the private sector because they see the Chinese driving around Toyotas and Porches and resent that the Chinese are attaining success while their race is stuck in the village and driving Proton Sagas. Malaysia’s an essentially insoluble mess and the corruption will get worse as the racial and religious divide grows.

    China doesn’t have this problem, which makes it an entirely different kettle of fish!

    • Replies: @Another Realist
  283. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    Dont talk to me like i am an idiot. What about his forward policy? Also you want ‘video evidence’ that china gave nukes to pak? Or paper trail? They can be destroyed. Or they can be done without a paper trail. Also if videos are not made there wont be video evidence too. The whole world including chinese leadership knows who gave nukes to pak. ‘Evidence’ for these kinds of things dont always exist. Also regarding canada…you too took nukes from some country right. It didnt fall out of the sky and land in your lap, did it? Yes we took nukes from canada, but we kept it our selves we didnt give it to your enemies did we? Also china has a lot to gain by encircling india.

    Regarding maxwell, i thought it was ‘western propanganda’ if west talks good about india. But now you suddenly believe it?

    I personally dont have anything against the chinese. I spent some time in the west and my interactions with them have been positive. Its just that ‘some’ of you (not all) do these kind of stuff. Some indians do these kind of stuff too, but most of the time in most of the forums it is some chinese who start it..even in forums unrelated to india-china issues. (even in this thread it was chinese who started it again.)

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Astuteobservor II
  284. @Greg the American

    While you’re over there on your ranch having a whale of a good time, your country is being rapidly outstripped by China. They are now not only our largest upstream provider, and not only our largest creditor, but they are also now the world’s largest economy by Purchasing-Power Parity, and soon they’ll be the largest economy by every measure.

    But go ahead and kick back. Have a beer on me!

    • Replies: @Greg the American
  285. Che Guava says:
    @Greg the American

    I am good at karaoke, Japanese and English.

    Comparing spark plugs and axial fans to fracking is imbecilic.

    You must think you are a smart guy. If only you were king…

    Not at all, but am not stupid, unlike you. Throw a base insult, expect the same back.

    Mid-scale earthquakes from ‘fracking’ are well documented, not just in USA. Poisoning of aquifers is the obvious result, also well documented. Poor energy return in terms of input vs. output, simple fact.

    Whether I am a ‘guy’ is another matter, but you are getting that wrong, too.

    As a productive suggestion on the general theme, where, sorry, unlike you, I do have much technological knowledge and the ability to think as a graduate engineer, before and outside the horrifying US courses of now, fuel cells seem to hold promise for some roles, are in application at many sites in Japan.

    • Replies: @Greg the American
  286. @Astuteobservor II

    I actually have family members who have worked extensively with villagers and government officials in China for over 2 decades. So I know what I’m talking about. You based your entire observation on one anecdotal evidence from 10,000 miles away, and blind trust.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  287. @Anonymous

    Corruption always goes back to the same root in every country — unchecked power. The US too is becoming increasingly corrupt because of unchecked power — our “free” media that is supposed to be the government watchdog is ideologically aligned on the left and thus in bed deep with the Democratic party, along with all government watchdog agencies from the DOJ (under Obama) to FBI, CIA, IRS, the Deep State(practically all government employees are Democrats), and >80% of our judiciary bench. They are all on one side. That’s why the Clintons were able to get away with their blatant corruption through the Clinton Foundation, and the Obama admin was able to intimidate all their political opponents by politicizing all government agencies in particular through the IRS and FBI.

    Be it the US, Malaysia, China, India, Africa, Mexico, Midleast or Russia, the story is always the same, unchecked power always corrupts. China’s CPC one party state with a compliant media is a breeding ground for corruption. Even when someone is busted by the anti-graft agency, there’s no telling if they could just bribe someone in the agency or use coercive power through someone higher up to get out of trouble, or emigrate before they get thrown in jail. The trust busters themselves cannot be trusted in China because there is no independent judiciary and no independent media.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  288. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    >>Dont talk to me like i am an idiot. What about his forward policy? Also you want ‘video evidence’ that china gave nukes to pak? Or paper trail? They can be destroyed. Or they can be done without a paper trail. <>Regarding maxwell, i thought it was ‘western propanganda’ if west talks good about india. But now you suddenly believe it? <<

    Is it how the hindu nationalists spread accusation and propaganda? eh? It happened; just the paper trail was burned ? Just what do you take the forumers here for, may I ask ?

    Maxwell Neville had access to a secret internal document provided by the Indian military :The "Henderson Brook report". It basically outlined the stupidity and grossly inflated ego of Nehru and his clique. Sure Maxwell was much a hated figure to the hinduwadis.

    BTW, pls forgive me for pointing out the obvious: the hindu nationalists will die with their 1962 butt scar aching. Military defeat happens to every country; really not a big deal from a long term historical perspective. If you guys consider China an arch enemy of Hindustan, then Hindustan has been defeated in more than one way. the only solace the hindu nationalists can claim would be something like, say, ancient hindus invented flying saucers:

    https://www.thenational.ae/world/hindu-nationalists-claim-ancient-sage-invented-spaceships-1.108594

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  289. @Another Realist

    blind trust my ass. I have invested my money with them. people in their own town have invested in the same way. there are even backdoor deals and info leaked on where the govt plan to build highways and subway stations just so people can scoop up land ahead of the govt for a huge profit. how can the chinese ppl and investors exploit it if the chinese govt are not doing I have have typed and are acting like what you typed?

    of course I am not saying it is 100% but you are using rare cases as sweeping statements. the exact opposite of what I am doing, by using the norm. it is why I called your comment utter bullshit.

    • Replies: @Another realist
  290. @Anonymous

    haha, it is all china’s fault :) you have said it all :) /S

  291. Vidi says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    china’s biggest problem was it was too big for it’s own good. mass communications and transit is needed to govern a country of that size. the govt had nothing left after just trying to govt the country and keep revolts down. my best guess as to why it was so inward looking.

    That may also be true. With all the greatest minds drawn to government and working hard to keep the Middle Kingdom together, maybe there wasn’t enough genius left over for inventing more things. As you say, there may also have been little motivation to look outward, as China was already nearly too large.

    I agree that modern transportation and communication will make it easier to keep the country together.

    China’s huge population brings large problems but also much potential: there are more mouths to feed, but also more hands for working, and more brains for thinking and inventing.

  292. Vidi says:
    @Another Realist

    Corruption always goes back to the same root in every country — unchecked power. The US too is becoming increasingly corrupt because of unchecked power

    The problem is, how do you keep the power in check in the long run? As you say, even the democratic US, with a constitution full of checks and balances, is rotting fast. And India, also democratic, is worse.

    I don’t know if there is a solution. In the long run, it will probably be the people’s job, all over the world, to overthrow their rotten government and institute a cleaner dynasty.

    China’s communist party is not so bad; the corruption is there, but it is not nearly as blatant as it is in the US; not even the worst official in the Party can get a trillion-dollar bailout and stay out of jail. Perhaps the Communist Dynasty is still young, still fresh. Time will tell.

  293. @Astuteobservor II

    We are talking about two different things. I’m talking about farm lands that are seized and sold to private developers to build commercial or residential real estate. You’re talking about eminent domain involving building of infrastructure. I think you said so yourself even with the latter there is corruption involving people getting secret government plans on where to build infrastructure and scooping up the land beforehand. China is corrupt, period.

    Anyway I don’t argue with people who lash out at strangers with ad hominem attacks. I’ve got better things to do. Keep investing and good luck to you.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  294. Engineer says:

    Very interesting article and informative (and entertaining!) comments. Western capitalism fucked itself when it became decoupled from any kind of social responsibility. An amoral system based on pure avarice and self-justifying bullshit that allows, encourages even, the shameless plunder and exploitation of fellow countrymen and designed so a handful of crooked, evil sociopaths (Bezos, Jobs, Musk, Page, Brin, Schmidt, Gates, Buffet etc. and the Wall Street/City of London casino capitalists) who hollowed out the economy and destroyed the middle-class, with government help, just so they could turn a few billion dollars more profit (because less than $50 billion personal wealth just isn’t enough for one family)…that is a system that is bound to implode spectacularly.

    If Westerners, particularly Americans and the British, hadn’t been brainwashed during the cold war to believe the only two options for economic and political systems are Anglo-American capitalism and Stalinist communism (with the former being worshiped like a pagan god) this would be so obvious to people. But, hey, brainwashing works and plenty of Americans and Brits still babble cold war talking points about bloodthirsty commies and the glorious “free” market ueber alles…EVEN AS THEY ARE BEING SET UP AS MARKS AND ROBBED BLIND AND KICKED OUT OF THEIR HOMES because slimy little bug eyed greaseballs like Bezos deserves to make as much money as he possibly can ON YOUR DIME while you struggle to hold on to the little bit of dignity you have left, and remain solvent and gainfully employed competing against Bangladeshi sweat shop slaves and Indian call center agents.

    And all the while the greaseballs and Goldman Sachs bend you over a barrel feeding you new “apps” for your “smart” (lol) device, offer you a massive selection of hardcore tranny porn and drugs and then tell you about how “racism” and “misogyny” run rampant and IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT and only immigrants and minorities are worthy people…well, good riddance to all that. What would Jesus do? (I am not kidding…do you really think how the USA is run in 2017 is in any way Christian or morally upright?)

    Oh, and if you’re really lucky you get to go fight and die on behalf of a small foreign country that has no qualms blowing away rock chucking kids and supporting jihadi mercenaries who slaughter Christians and destroy countries that just want to be left in peace… and are now threatening to launch a regional war on a massive scale which YOU WILL PAY FOR AND DIE FOR.

    Hello…this is happening right now. The new prez, yeah the guy who pledged to drain the slime from the swamp, is a total fraud who lied through his teeth and is now serving as Chief Agitator and BULLSHITTER for the state of “Israel” and the venal Saud family and their death cult religion.

    You can’t make this shit up…it’s unreal but it is happening right now and we all know it. But I’m sure sanity will prevail and the evil genie will be stuffed back in the bottle any day now. Trust me, I’m a star and an American capitalist and I would never EVER sell my fellow citizens down the river for an extra shekel.

    But it could we worse…thank god we’re not like those funny talking littler chinese commie fellas. Now THEY got big problems. (lol)

  295. @Another realist

    I’m talking about farm lands that are seized and sold to private developers to build commercial or residential real estate.

    that is bullshit too.

    I know for a fact entire villages basically lease their land to factories or companies and they get pay every single year. every single family in the village get a cut. some of the big villages was giving out something as big as 30-50k chinese yuan per year per family. this is the norm. and of course this is not 100%, there will always be cases for what you have mentioned, but those are not the norm.

    2% of all americans are gays, are you saying all americans are gays because of the 2%? because this is exactly what you are doing here.

    calling out utter bullshit as bullshit is not lashing out :) it is just calling out bullshit.

    corruption is nothing, usa is as corrupt as it gets. hell, we legalized it, supreme court ruled in favorite of it. we still function. china will be fine too.

  296. DB Cooper says:

    This is just ridiculous. Present day India is much bigger than it was before when India was created from the polity left behind after the British Raj left the subcontinent in 1947. Once the Indians were there own master they continue the good old tradition of the land grabbing expansionist British Raj without missing a beat. According to international law as the successor state of the British Raj India is entitled to the land under the jurisdiction of the British Raj but not anymore. But the land grabbing didn’t stop when the British quit, it continue and become even more blatant. India is the only country post WWII that has invaded and grab land from every single of its neighbors.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Philip Owen
  297. Erebus says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    The structure of Chinese spoken language and tones that are used makes use of characters required.

    I’ve heard this argument many times, and I can’t for the life me understand it. Pinyin incorporates the 4 tones with no difficulty, and I can type English into my translator program and out comes both characters and Pinyin simultaneously. True, I’m not sure if they correspond accurately, but I have to assume that they can be corrected if not.

    The Vietnamese, with 6+ tones went wholly to their version of Pinyin without ado, and the old characters are now nowhere to be found across what I’ve seen of Vietnam

    I don’t get it. Maybe you’d kindly explicate that a little more.

  298. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    why the focus in just those 3 years?

    For the simple reason that I wanted to steer well clear of the GFC that became visible in late 2006. The drop continues, as you know. It’s bouncing back up now, as China becomes more expensive.
    Anyway, look at the hinge point in the graph below. The hinge point where US Mfg Employment falls off the table coincides with China’s accession to the WTO, and gaining MFN status. China demanded and got not only MFN, but access to the US’ automotive OEM market where the big numbers are.

    Just look at where the alternator, brake pads/rotors, drive components, alloy wheels, etc etc in a <5 yr old "American" car come from. Losing the stuffed toys, toasters and kettles to Chinese manufacturing is a very small part of what happened, and in any case the latter happened long before 2001.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  299. @Che Guava

    An engineer, great. Fixing engineer screwups is speciality of mine.

    You overstate the problems with fracking because your preference is that fossil fuels need to be phased out.

    While you are ultimately likely right about that, I think what you don’t understand is as follows.

    Wealth and dynamic economies are needed to provide the innovation and social dynamism to fix these kind of problems. Poor places where people just survive are the worst for environmental conditions. Rich places where technological progress may happen will provide the solutions to perhaps enable us to survive. In addition, rich places have low birth rates.

    I believe if you people hinder the oil economy, a very important facet of everyone’s well being and oil is not to be understated in that regard, then you will undercut the very mechanism (wealth and prosperity) which will ultimately solve the very problem you claim to be concerned about.

    The disconnect we probably have, as is the disconnect in the article above, is that foolish people believe economic and technological progress can continue under socialism and central planning, be it for environmental purposes or whatever. This is your mistake.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
    , @Joe Wong
  300. @Seamus Padraig

    For the sake of argument, let’s buy the premise of the article. China is gonna be awesome. Might even be true, America is screwing up on a number of fronts as pointed out in the comments.

    Question for the informed, How much personal freedom does the average Chinese citizen have? Can they own guns? Corruption at a local level have impact? Career and education freedom? Are there practical choices about where to live and lifestyle? Homeschool OK? You can keep your doctor? Really, I may be making some assumptions, should I move to China?

    I only would make the point, if a government doesn’t serve the liberty of its citizens (a somewhat American idea I know) maybe I don’t care how many pyramids it builds.

    And another thing Seamus, is it a competition, per se? Should I as an average citizen be concerned about GDP comparisons, trade numbers, central bank measures. Sucks for Costa Rica.

    I for one would be happy if the Chinese invent some stuff. Maybe we could steal their innovations for once. (yeah gunpowder whatever).

  301. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Lin

    Lin, The U.S. and the West transferred their knowledge base as patrimony to China, especially starting in the mid to early 90′s.

    Clinton’s MFN status for China came soon after China swept communist era debt off the ledger. Then Wall Street starting Green Mailing American Captains of Industry. This forced American industry to leave the country, to then get wage arbitrage.

    Entire factories and 100′s of years of know how was sold cheaply to make wage arbitrage today. This short circuited the normal investment, equity, more investment cycle in the West. It also screwed the future by giving away know -how cheaply.

    At night, Chinese would transfer knowledge from Western factories to copy cat Chinese factories.

    China state banks also manipulated the Yuan Dollar ratio to keep dollar exchange rate high. This was done by buying TBills, rather than goods from American Mainstreet. So, recycled Chinese dollars, would then spin back out to buy more Chinese goods.

    Chinese inflows of dollars into the U.S. also did skiff and skim. Skiff was bribe money paid to dock workers. Retail got skim to place Chinese goods on American store shelves.

    China also gave out Yuan loans for American target industry, even going to trade fairs and the like. This then attracted American genius to then work for China. The American genius was taxpayer funded.

    So, any fair assessment of China has to include the many schemes that were run by Wall Street predators, as well as games played by Chinese manipulators.

    False pride……

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @PandaAtWar
  302. Erebus says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    From what I’ve heard, about 1B Chinese speak Pudonghua (Mandarin). That is old info, so I’m guessing that number is up a lot as it is now taught in all schools and all have access. Those that were stuck in one of the local dialects/local languages were probably also semi-literate, at best, so having characters didn’t help them much. In any case, different Pinyins can be generated for the different dialects just as the Taiwanese did for Taiwan, and Hong Kong did for Cantonese (Guangdonghua).

    At the end of the day, the reality is that Chinese children learn their ABCs & Pinyin first. Whenever I’ve asked why they go on to characters I’ve been told “Tradition”. I read that as a euphemism for “I have no idea”, which puts them in the same boat with me.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  303. @Erebus

    employment have nothing to do with mfg capacity/output. if you were talking about employment, I would have agreed with you and this entire comment chain would never have happened. but if employment was the main issue, cars would not be here, switch board girls would still be a thing. in the next 2-3 decades, about 30-45% of the jobs would be automated. you can’t fight it, be prepare for it.

    1987 – 2017
    17.5 million workers down to 12.4m
    mfg output was 69 and went up to 129 (using 2009 as 100)

    this is 100% tech and efficiency. output per worker went up by about 250% there is really no need to use china for scapegoating.

    this is 2016 data

    Last year, U.S. manufacturers made about $5.4 trillion worth of goods and products (in constant 2009 dollars), according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis. The biggest categories were food, beverages and tobacco products ($817 billion), chemical products ($752 billion) and motor vehicles and parts ($670 billion).

    After adjusting for inflation, manufacturing output in the first quarter of this year was more than 80% above its level 30 years ago, according to BLS data. But while U.S. manufacturing output has increased in absolute terms, it still represents a smaller share of the economy than it used to: Manufacturing accounted for about 23% of gross output in 1997 (the first year for which such data are available) but just 18.5% last year.

    not bad at all. all the china scare is just illogical. it is the same as the china holding us debt scare, completely overblown and fear mongering, since us citizens owns most of the national debt.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  304. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    So basically, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If a Jew provides an uncensored platform for people to express their views, and left leaning views happen to appear, it’s a scheme to bundle radical leftism together with with the most appealing elements of rightism. On the other hand, if a Jew censors certain views, it’s because he’s concealing ideas that would result in his demise. You people are deranged.

  305. Lin says:
    @MEFOBILLS

    “..The U.S. and the West transferred their knowledge base as patrimony to China, especially starting in the mid to early 90′s….”

    Why don’t u give me a list of TOT from US to China since the 90s?

    As I said, I acknowledge China did import important steel making tech from Japan and before that China managed to make mig-15, an early 50s vintage fighter, during the late 50s. Even with the later Russia-china enmity during the 60s and 70s, Chinese have been grateful to Russian help then.

    “False Pride”?
    I’m afraid it’s your misplaced pride. The relocation of labour-intensive manufacture did something good for China in the form of providing employment to rural migrants and helped china’s urbanization. The yanks have been VERY stringent in TOT to China.

  306. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    —————————

    ‘You dont see indians talk about what they think china did as much as chinese talk about what they think india did. Why? Its almost always chinese talking sh*t about india than the other way round. Most of the time its chinese who start it. Why?’

    How old are you my friend ?

    The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !
    These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !

    Alternate media like UNZ used to be the same until I cleansed it up, no kidding !
    What you see now is the aftermath of the clean up !
    STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !

    ‘And china also has seen it. Dont you think we dont know it? And india is only going towards US. because of china’

    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]

    The Indians never forgave China for that self inflicted humiliation, they declared their undying loyalty to the murkkan cause from then on and never look back since !

    another provocation at the Sikkim border, 1987

    2008 CIA/RAW Tibet riots,

    2013, ‘Asia pivot’

    2017, Donglang provocation.

    ‘Wrong. India actually lost land.’

    [sic ]
    Read the comment by ‘currybeef‘ here,

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/06/sikkim-stand-off-china-india-collide-himalayas/

    he gave a good account of Indian expansionism, still not complete tho.

    ‘Chinese nuke to Pak’

    As Lin says, *where’s the proof , my dear’ ?

    See, unlike Indians and their murkkan soulmates who follow the British edict that .
    when you lie, lie big and stick to it’

    I actually back up what I claim…

    [1]
    This from the horse mouth, insider info….

    Gregory Clark, ex Aussie diplomat
    ‘ “Chinese aggression,” screamed the headlines. It took more than 10 years, and the book “India’s China War,” by the former London Times correspondent in New Delhi, Neville Maxwell, for the world to discover that in fact India had attacked China rather than vice versa.
    .
    At the time I was a junior China desk officer in the Australian
    Department of External Affairs. One needed only to look at a map to discover that the hostilities had begun after India moved troops into the Thagla Ridge area, north of the official version of the McMahon Line, which India was claiming as its northernmost frontier.
    .
    In other words, India must have started the fighting.

    .
    All this is relevant to the India-Pakistan confrontation today.
    China’s 1962 border war with India followed the 1959 Tibetan uprising (in which we now find that India and the CIA were involved).

    QED

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  307. denk says:
    @Skullcrusher

    Skullcrusher says:
    ‘How can the West be jealous or fearful of Chinese achievements? There aren’t any. China’s achievements in the last 100 years consist of murdering and ruining the lives of more people (almost all Chinamen) than anyone in history,’

    ‘jealous’ ?
    YOu must be kidding !

    You’r the champ, no contest….
    If killing peasants half way around the world is an Olympic event,
    murkka would clean up the medals every time,,……..’

    http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans/bogeymen.html

    • Replies: @Skullcrusher
  308. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    Firstly i am not a hindu nationalist. Not every indian is a hindu nationalist. Also i want to ask you the same thing what do you take the forumers here. The whole world knows it was china who gave nukes to pak.

    ”Maxwell Neville had access to a secret internal document provided by the Indian military :The “Henderson Brook report”. It basically outlined the stupidity and grossly inflated ego of Nehru and his clique. Sure Maxwell was much a hated figure to the hinduwadis.” I can use the same logic here, what was the ‘evidence’ that it came from the indian military? Give me the evidence. Its not the like the indian military will go around handing top secret indian documents to foreigners, does it?. But if you can provide evidence, then i will accept it.

    Talk bad about hinduwadi’s, hindu nationalists i dont care, just dont talk sh*t about india. And tell us what does the book report say? And no indians dont see chinese as enemies as much as chinese see indians. Dont believe me.? Ask a few chinese what they think about india and ask a few indians what they think about china and you will see more hostile answers from chinese about india than vice versa.

    • Replies: @Lin
  309. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    A google search will give you more info about it.

  310. @Erebus

    8I have no knowledge about Vietnam other that as you say they speak another tonal language. But is there dialects in Vietnam that are as different from each other like those in China? It was long time ago but even in Chongqing where I lived locals outside oh our university mostly used Sichuan Hua dialect which while the closest to Potong Hua still presented problems in u understanding and that would include using different words altogether or sounds sunstitution. Saying si instead of shi and so forth. Now there is a lot of other dialects in China which cannot be understood by Potong Hua speakers which is basically north eastern dialect of dong bei. I am not sure how situation with Potong Hua spread and use in China across all provinces. Another would have been psychological aspect. Vietnam was willing to go with reform as Chinese characters were foreign for Vietnam and history between the two is not exactly warm and fuzzy. For China their characters system is indigenous and part of their history for millennia hence psychological cultural attachment and tradition. I also read that studying Chinese characters was actually improving math comprehension. So, it would be interesting if you could expand on your theory I find it very interesting. I do remember Anatoly Karlin touched on the subject once but it was more about difficulties of attaining and mantaining high literacy rates for chinese compared with europeans while you are coming from very different angle.

  311. Che Guava says:
    @Greg the American

    Not my mistake,

    Your misinterpretation.

    In China, graduate engineers have been at the top of the polity since Deng. They are seeming to do a relatively good job.

    In Sth. Korea and Japan, they (we) are controlling the tech. companies, except Sony, thanks to its unwise investments in Hollywood many years ago.

    In the USA, accountants and lawyers run the companies. Lawyers and graauates of moronic ‘degrees ‘ increasingly are runnimg the place.

  312. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    I understand and even agree with what you’ve said. Now let me explain how you can have higher Manufacturing Output numbers, while making less stuff. IOW, the data obscures what’s really going on. I’ll explain it by way of a simplified example….

    Say I have a factory employing 100 people making washing machines. It’s the only manufacturing being done in the country, I am my vendors’ only customer, and I in turn have only one customer….

    - I buy a motor, pulleys, and belts from a local motor mfr employing 25 people.
    - I buy a control panel & wiring harness from a local electronics mfr employing 25 people.
    - I buy castings from a local casting house employing 25 people.
    - I buy all the plastic injection parts from a local injection house employing 25 people.
    - I make all the steel parts – panels, tub, brackets etc – in-house, to which I’ve assigned 75 people.
    - the remaining 25 people screw all those bits together to make 10,000 washing machines/yr which I sell for $100ea to Walmart (who else?). Manufacturing Output = $1M.

    In 2001, China joins the WTO, and I change my business model…
    - I buy a motor, pulleys, and belts from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy a control panel & wiring harness from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy castings from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy my plastic parts from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy all the steel parts – panels, tub, brackets etc – from China, and I let those 75 people go.
    - the remaining 25 people + 2 new robots (5 people don’t get hired) continue to screw all those bits together to now make 12,000 washing machines/yr which I now sell for $90ea to Walmart. Manufacturing Output = $1.08M.

    The St. Louis Fed’s FRED chart records the increase: up 8%. Wall St and astute observers rejoice. However, please note that the only number that’s counted in “Manufacturing Output” is the last number in the chain, namely my sales.

    You see, materials and components are Industrial Inputs, and are subsumed in the final sale wherever they came from. To avoid double counting (effectively being valued twice or more on their way to Walmart) my vendors’ outputs, and their vendors’ outputs are subsumed in my top line sales number, and that is so whether I sourced them locally, or offshore.

    In our little scenario 175 people lost their jobs, 4 companies closed (plus most of mine), the country doesn’t make motors, plastic & steel parts, etc anymore, but the Fed’s charts show manufacturing output went up. Put another way, “making things” collapsed, but Manufacturing went up. I always thought manufacturing and “making things” were equivalent, but nowadays apparently not.

    Anyway, that’s how the US lost millions of mfg jobs and that’s why people say that US mfg is dying. All those things don’t get made, but the number goes up. The robots are a very small piece of the puzzle.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  313. @Erebus

    - the remaining 25 people + 2 new robots (5 people don’t get hired) continue to screw all those bits together to now make 12,000 washing machines/yr which I now sell for $90ea to Walmart. Manufacturing Output = $1.08M.

    The St. Louis Fed’s FRED chart records the increase: up 8%. Wall St and astute observers rejoice. However, please note that the only number that’s counted in “Manufacturing Output” is the last number in the chain, namely my sales.

    woah, this is new to me. just make sure I got everything and read up on the NAICS 2017 version.

    https://www.census.gov/eos/www/naics/2017NAICS/2017_NAICS_Manual.pdf

    Sector 31-33–Manufacturing, page 143. so according to your comment, all those imputs from china would be counted towards the mfg output simply because the final product is being assembled in the usa? now we just need to find out assemblers like apple(getting parts to china and assemble the product there) and ones like your example(getting parts from china and assemble products in the usa).

    what are the percentages for both? before that is clear, seems like we can’t say one way or the other. my google fu failed to find this specific information, is it even publicly available?

    so my “sort of” comment was kinda spot on :)

    • Replies: @Erebus
  314. @denk

    Hate my good and glorious America if you wish, but get the facts right. Here are the commie murder totals:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

    This source claims that the USSR edges out the PRC for #1 but if you read down a bit it becomes clear that this is a matter of definitions and they are ignoring the communist caused famines like the Great Leap Forward unless they were famines for the purpose of murder instead of just incompetence. Add those in and the PRC wins the Murder Cup. Plus I was actually discussing China, not just the PRC, so you also have to add in all the nationalist Chinese murders (~10 million). Even that is really an undercount because I only went back a hundred years and the civil wars in the 1800′s killed millions more, which is all the more “impressive” because it was mostly without guns.

    Here are American totals from the same source:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM

    ‘Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars, and most of those are from WW2 bombing which I’m not sure even counts. This is two+ orders of magnitude below China & Russia. I am content to not be #1 in this special case.

    Troll on, dude!

    • Replies: @denk
  315. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    woah, this is new to me. … all those imputs from china would be counted towards the mfg output simply because the final product is being assembled in the usa?

    Not “simply because the final product is being assembled in the USA” but because the Real Manufacturing Output is recorded in $-value terms at the end of the manufacturing chain.

    As you kindly linked to the NAICS code manual, I can put this yet another way. Every product sold in N. America has an Industrial Code as jointly assigned by Mexico, Canada & the USA. As you saw, there’s a staggering number of products and their codes listed. 1000 pages of them. The point at which a product’s North American Industrial Code stops changing is where the manufacturing process is deemed to have ended, and its contribution to the RMO is recorded. So when Walmart imports a fan belt from China, the product code is recorded by US Customs, and as that code never changes along Walmart’s distribution chain and finally into your car, Walmart is not a Manufacturer, and that fan belt does not add to the RMO. OTOH, if a washing machine manufacturer imports the very same belt and installs it in a washing machine, the belt’s Industrial Code is superseded by a new Industrial Code, namely the washing machine’s, and in doing so “releases” its $-value to the washing machine and the RMO $-value that that washing machine represents. Simple really. So simple that similar RMO calculations are used all over the world.

    BTW, one of the insidious things that’s going on right now is that the USG is trying to find ways of capturing the activities of big international American based companies that own their brand and IP, but use overseas subcontractors to make their products, in the Fed’s RMO calculation. That would reclassify American cos. such as Nike as “manufacturers” even though they own no factories on American soil (afaik), and produce nothing but designs and advertising slogans in the US. Apple, from what I understand, will be in the same boat. If they succeed, the RMO will soar and America will be Great Again, but nothing will change on the ground.

    Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.
    PS: No, your comment missed the mark.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  316. China is building 30000 km of HSR track more than the rest of the world combined, because the rest of the world is choosing to go faster and fly in airplanes what are getting safer, quieter, cheaper and cleaner and may soon get even faster with SST.

  317. @MEFOBILLS

    …At night, Chinese would transfer knowledge from Western factories to copy cat Chinese factories…

    hahaha…thanks for the chuckle!

    The evil Chinese must have done that at night in full acknowledgement that they’re dealing with a bunch of big nose retards, right?

  318. @Erebus

    BTW, one of the insidious things that’s going on right now is that the USG is trying to find ways of capturing the activities of big international American based companies that own their brand and IP, but use overseas subcontractors to make their products, in the Fed’s RMO calculation.

    that would get rid of all distinction between the two examples in my previous comment and roll both into us mfg output total. that is insidious. when this happens, I will concede the point. since this is essentially using mfg output from other countries and faking them as our own.

    back to the 2 examples you just gave. what decides when/if a code is changed/superseded? since both parts/products in the examples you used eventually end up as a part of another product. according to your previous comment, both would count towards the us total mfg output. now I am confused. based on your previous comment I thought products like iphone would count towards the chinese mfg output as the final product is assembled in china. and your washing machine counts towards the us total as it was assembled in the usa but with imported parts.

    that is why I asked for the total of both kinds in both countries. which I cannot find. without those numbers, your claim, as well as mine are no longer valid. as both are made without the actual correct data in light of your new info.

    figures don’t lie right? so, where are the figures? do they even exist? even the usa didn’t start tracking mfg output till about 1994. I tried, nothing came up in google for both china and usa. my google fu failed here.

    my “sort of” stands. unless you can provide the figures(total mfg output of the same type(using imported parts, and the percent value of all the imported parts in the final product) in both countries). even if you can just provide the us figures, it will be fine. I cannot find them.

  319. Erebus says:

    what decides when/if a code is changed/superseded?

    It gets changed/superceded prior to leaving the system automatically at time of sale. When I sell my washing machine to Walmart, the invoice reads (say):
    Qty: 2000 units
    Model Name: Maxi-Megalon 1000
    Price: $100 ea
    TOTAL: $200,000
    Net due: 30 days.
    If you are one of the 300 manufacturers that the USG tracks, you might include the Industrial Code that denotes a washing machine. Frankly I don’t know as when I was manufacturing in a previous life we only had to include the code when we exported.

    Anyway, notice that nowhere does the Invoice mention fanbelts, motors, etc. They are gone from the tracking system. Walmart buys a washing machine, not a collection of parts, and the system is interested only in what the manufacturing chain, in the end, produced.

    since both parts/products in the examples you used eventually end up as a part of another product. according to your previous comment, both would count towards the us total mfg output.

    Well, I’m not sure what exactly you’re asking about here, but if you’re talking about the Walmart-fanbelt vs the Washing Machine-fanbelt, then the answer is simple.

    Commodity and Industrial Codes only appear within the system. An item leaves the system when it gets sold by the system’s last reporting entity, in this case Walmart. The system doesn’t know or care whether you installed it in your car, threw it out in disgust because it didn’t fit, or used it to hang your neighbour’s cat. The fanbelt left the reporting system at Walmart’s cash register, and does not “eventually end up as a part of another product” as far as the system is concerned.

    BTW, if you’re saying Apple procures parts in the USA and exports them to their overseas assembly contractors, then the situation may be a little more complex because there’s software likely to be involved. Without digging into it, I don’t know whether a “blank” EPROM chip (EG) has a different Industrial Code than one that’s had software burned into it. If the code changes, and Apple does the loading or has it done in the USA, then it is a USA manufacturer and its sale of that chip is added to the RMO when it exports it. That’s true whether or not they ever get paid for it. (That’s why you often see the phrase “Value for Customs” on the Customs Declaration)
    Regardless of whether the chip changes codes, whatever code it has when it leaves the USA is when it leaves the NAICS to be imported by whatever offshore entity Apple “sold” it to.
    When Apple subsequently imports the completed iPhone, it imports it under the Industrial Code that applies to smartphones, and that EPROM chip’s now superseded Industrial Code is not mentioned in the import documents. Like the fanbelt you threw away, the chip doesn’t exist in the system. Apple imported an iPhone, not a collection of parts.

    So, no your “sort of” doesn’t stand under any of these scenarios. Think of how the data is reported and compiled, and you’ll see what the RMO number represents. Having said that, there are many other methods of tracking manufacturing activity (which ain’t quite the same). These include manufacturing employment, resources & raw materials entering the system, industrial electricity use, and others. Taken together, they give a pretty good picture of what’s happening, but the Fed’s Real Manufacturing Output is a number that (imho) obscures their message, and taken alone is downright deceiving.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  320. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    ” Its not the like the indian military will go around handing top secret indian documents to foreigners ”
    Haha, that was exactly what happened. The whole is well documented enough that I don’t need to elaborate further. It was then a big embarrassment to the indian gov establishment.
    From a nationalistic indian military site:

    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/1962-war-why-keep-henderson-brooks-report-secret/

    …..
    One thing I didn’t know is even Nixon and Kissinger had read Neville Maxwell’s book
    ……………….
    “Talk bad about hinduwadi’s, hindu nationalists i dont care, just dont talk sh*t about india. And tell us what does the book report say? And no indians dont see chinese as enemies as much as chinese see indians. Dont believe me.? ”
    From a nationalistic indian military site

    Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  321. YiJiaYi says:

    “The whole process of getting to my current informed and enlightened awareness was akin to climbing an arduous summit, with a howling occidental hurricane blowing against my face. This is why I am so patient with friends, family, colleagues and strangers, when talking about their convictions and beliefs about how humanity works. With all due respect, most of them are still at base camp…”

    This is all you need to know about the writer of this silly piece. He’s 63 years old and sounds like a Uni Snowflake. I’ve lived in China just as long and have a much different story to tell. I think the only thing bigger than the author’s ego is the mountain of unsustainable debt that China has incurred to build these projects.

    Or, in a more vernacular vein… I mean, like, dude… realllyyyy???

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  322. @Erebus

    So when Walmart imports a fan belt from China, the product code is recorded by US Customs, and as that code never changes along Walmart’s distribution chain and finally into your car, Walmart is not a Manufacturer, and that fan belt does not add to the RMO.

    comment 322. this is what I am talking about. why is there a distinction? that fan belt is going to become a part of another product, just another input. why is there a difference? why is it different than your washing machine example? who cares if walmart sold the part as is? whomever buys it is going to use it to make a final product. yes, you will have people buying it as a replacement to fix cars but without figures for that, how do you come to a conclusion one way or the other? after this comment 326, now I understand what you are talking about. this example isn’t about inputs, you are talking about walmart selling the part directly in it’s stores. the confusion was I thought you were talking about it as another input.

    software will be part of computer and software, not part of mfg. we were just focusing on the phone assembling in china. because that is 100% counted toward china total mfg output according to your example. NAICS code manual states it quiet clearly on that front. same with R&D, they will all count towards different, corresponding departments that isn’t mfg.

    When Apple subsequently imports the completed iPhone, it imports it under the Industrial Code that applies to smartphones, and that EPROM chip’s now superseded Industrial Code is not mentioned in the import documents. Like the fanbelt you threw away, the chip doesn’t exist in the system. Apple imported an iPhone, not a collection of parts.

    yea I understand this, why do you think I counted the iphones towards the chinese total mfg?

    my “sort of” stands. unless you can provide the figures(total mfg output of the same type(using imported parts, and the percent value of all the imported parts in the final product) in both countries). even if you can just provide the us figures, it will be fine. I cannot find them.

    I don’t understand how this concluding part of my previous comment is that hard to understand. it is about as clear as it gets, I doubt I can make it any clearer.

    lets try.

    products like iphones are counted towards chinese total mfg = assembled in china using imported parts and some chinese made parts.
    products like your washing machines is counted towards us total mfg = assembled in the usa using imported parts and some american made parts.

    lets ignore direct parts sales, that actually muddled the water and sew confusion.

    what is the $$$ value of the imported parts? what percent of the total product value $$$? calculate that for both countries. well, just the usa alone is fine too. you need these figures to calculate the mfg loss of both countries. compare them. if usa alone, you will need the $$$ value of all parts shipped to china for final assembly. compare that to all the parts sold by china to us factories for final assembly. simple right? if we can find the figures.

    without these figures, how can you tell if china is or isn’t a scapegoat?

    • Replies: @Erebus
  323. @YiJiaYi

    I’ve lived in China just as long and have a much different story to tell.

    tell that story :)

  324. wrd9 says:
    @Erebus

    The majority of Chinese corruption is certainly not innocuous.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety_incidents_in_China

    About 80,000 dams have been built in China since 1949, 3,000 collapsed by 1980 including one that killed almost 200,000.

    Then there is “tofu construction”.

    https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/19/more-tofu-buildings-string-of-collapses-causes-alarm-in-china/

    And pervasive scientific fraud.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628910-300-fraud-fighter-faked-research-is-endemic-in-china/

    https://www.sciencealert.com/80-of-the-data-in-chinese-clinical-trial-is-fabricated

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/world/asia/china-science-fraud-scandals.html

    And one of the crimes that the Chinese do in the West.

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/icbc-spain/

    A New Yorker article about Abacus bank was illuminating about how much tax evasion occurs in the Chinese community in NYC.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/12/the-accused-jiayang-fan

    China will not be able to maintain success unless it eradicates corruption. Whether China can replicate Hong Kong’s success will be doubtful as they are not implementing the same policy of education of the young along with punishment. And there are many beachheads of corrupt Chinese located across the world.

  325. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    that fan belt is going to become a part of another product, just another input. why is there a difference?

    O dear. You’re not a car manufacturer, are you? The NAICS codes you linked are part of reporting system that makes no pretence to reporting everything-that-happens-with-everything-and-everyone. You didn’t manufacture that car, and therefore you didn’t “employ a component” as defined by the reporting system, so it reports the fan belt as a “finished good” and emphatically not as an “input” of any sort. Components are defined as industrial inputs when used in creating a new product with a new product code. Only a manufacturer can create the latter. You didn’t. This is critical to understand. For the reporting system, there is no “input” if the product code didn’t change. Is that clear now?

    who cares if walmart sold the part as is?

    The reporting system cares a lot, as do those who make policy decisions based on the numbers it generates. Not to mention those who discuss it in 1000s of words on internet forums!

    what is the $$$ value of the imported parts? what percent of the total product value $$$? calculate that for both countries. well, just the usa alone is fine too. you need these figures to calculate the mfg loss of both countries. compare them. if usa alone, you will need the $$$ value of all parts shipped to china for final assembly. compare that to all the parts sold by china to us factories for final assembly. simple right? if we can find the figures.

    Well, you’ve now wandered a long way from the original discussion, which was whether US manufacturing (qua making stuff) had, or had not dropped in the face of the Fed’s rising Real Manufacturing Output numbers. I showed that it may well have, and I think you see that now.

    When you ask “what percent of the total product value $$$” imported components represent, and whether the components going the other way compare in value, you’re asking a very different thing. You’d have to look for the import/export data from US Customs to compare them at the US end. I worry that the data available may not be fine-grained enough to get to “the mfg loss of both countries”, but in any case getting fine grained data from the Chinese end would surely be no easy task either.
    You have to keep in mind that there is no such category as “component”. If Heinz exports a jar of mustard to China, it’s exported as a manufactured good with an assigned code, and it may become a “component” in McDonald’s hamburgers in China or be sold at a grocery store, but so far as I know there’s no way to find out what happened to it after it hit China’s shores.

    That’s why anyone trying get a picture of what’s happening to manufacturing in the USA looks at those data sets that I mentioned at the end of my last comment, and a variety of others. I don’t think another path exists, but when one does that, a pretty dismal picture emerges. Perhaps that’s why the Real Manufacturing Output is published by the St. Louis Fed, and the rest ignored or buried in the back pages of obscure journals.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  326. @Erebus

    O dear. You’re not a car manufacturer, are you? The NAICS codes you linked are part of reporting system that makes no pretence to reporting everything-that-happens-with-everything-and-everyone. You didn’t manufacture that car, and therefore you didn’t “employ a component” as defined by the reporting system, so it reports the fan belt as a “finished good” and emphatically not as an “input” of any sort. Components are defined as industrial inputs when used in creating a new product with a new product code. Only a manufacturer can create the latter. You didn’t. This is critical to understand. For the reporting system, there is no “input” if the product code didn’t change. Is that clear now?

    I have zero back ground in mfg :) let alone cars :) back on topic: why even bring up direct parts sales though? as that would clearly retain the chinese mfg codes and count towards the chinese total mfg right? why care about it if it doesn’t count towards the us total mfg output? like why?????
    this also ties into your

    The reporting system cares a lot, as do those who make policy decisions based on the numbers it generates. Not to mention those who discuss it in 1000s of words on internet forums!

    all those sales would already be counted as part of chinese total output. why do you keep on bringing this up? it is already accounted for.

    Well, you’ve now wandered a long way from the original discussion, which was whether US manufacturing (qua making stuff) had, or had not dropped in the face of the Fed’s rising Real Manufacturing Output numbers. I showed that it may well have, and I think you see that now.

    no I have not :) the original topic was if there was a drop in “real” us mfg output and if yes, if it was moved to china and else where. the comparison is needed to tell if it really did drop and/or moved.

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.

    you got the figures and numbers for both?

    direct parts sales have nothing to do with any of this as they would already be counted towards the respective mfg output of both countries.

    These include manufacturing employment, resources & raw materials entering the system, industrial electricity use, and others. Taken together, they give a pretty good picture of what’s happening

    if this is as good as it gets, then there is no answer. because what is being use to make inputs for other countries and what is being use for inputs + products for our own use? we are in this discussion because I learned through you that inputs from other countries end up counting towards the final product. you would be right if this was just a one sided trade, china the only one providing inputs for the us market but not the usa. but it isn’t.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  327. @wrd9

    And you are another mainstream dupe. Radio Free Asia? Come on, that is CIA propaganda central. And the NYT? I know journos who have worked there and they all know its editors are a bunch of CIA NOCs and agents. Ditto Wapo and all the other MSM.

    William Casey was just stating the obvious, when he went on record saying,

    The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media

    He was also quoted as saying one journalist was worth 20 agents in the field. Maybe that’s why he “died” not long thereafter.

    So basically, you are offering of blue pill brainwash.

  328. @Anonymous

    And no other culture has done more good.

  329. The Chinese workforce peaked in 2011. China did not get rich before it got old. The mega growth party is over. That doesn’t mean no growth but no superheat growth. And then there is all the debt in the excess of infrastructure and heavy industry. China will cope but the Gods of the Copybook Headings ultimately rule.

  330. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    no I have not :) the original topic was if there was a drop in “real” us mfg output and if yes, if it was moved to china and else where. the comparison is needed to tell if it really did drop and/or moved.

    I have no idea why you think the “comparison is needed”, but if it is needed to convince you, do as I suggested and comb through the US Customs import/export data. Look for products that are likely to be used as components and look at their trends. I don’t know how you’re gonna do that with any confidence if you “have zero back ground in mfg”, but you can try giving it your best shot.

    if this is as good as it gets, then there is no answer. because what is being use to make inputs for other countries and what is being use for inputs + products for our own use? we are in this discussion because I learned through you that inputs from other countries end up counting towards the final product. you would be right if this was just a one sided trade, china the only one providing inputs for the us market but not the usa. but it isn’t.

    I’m 99.9% certain I’m right so far as I went, and that it’s true regardless of whether it’s one-sided or not. The USA runs a $300B trade deficit with China every year. That is, China typically sells 2x more to America than it buys, and the bulk of what China buys is based in the agriculture and energy fields.
    You can get overviews here: https://www.chinabusinessreview.com/what-america-exports-to-china/.
    And here:

    https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/chn/usa/show/2016/

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  331. @Erebus

    I have no idea why you think the “comparison is needed”

    points down

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.

    The USA runs a $300B trade deficit

    well, which part of that has to do with the inputs in our discussion? this still would not matter, as I would just point up :) this is the same as the direct sales. have nothing to do with what we discussed. trade imbalances have nothing to do with mfg output.

    comb through the US Customs import/export data.

    if this is not readily available, I would need to be paid to do this :)

    ps: taking data from 1 side only and screaming your conclusion on top of a mountain still doesn’t make you right :)

  332. denk says:
    @Skullcrusher

    GLF for dummies

    In the 50/60′s China was in mortal danger, confronted by both
    superpowers USA/USSR.
    The Chinese went to bed every night wondering whether they’d wake up to see the next sunrise, murkkan/soviet nuclear first strike were like two swords of damocles hanging over their heads.
    China was militarily encircled and the masses were bearing the brunt of a murderous fukus trade and food embargo.
    Like Cuba, the Anglos were determined to nib the ‘threat of good example’ in the bud.

    Thats what drove Mao to launch the GLF, ‘to leapfrog UK and catapult China into the industrial ranks, its a do or die mission cuz fukus were going for China’s jugular the moment it’s born.

    As the chart sheet goes,
    GLF ended in disaster, resulting in famines that killed xxx millions.
    Hence the myth of Mao the ‘mass murderer’ was born.

    [MORE]

    ————————-

    ‘Hate my good and glorious America if you wish, ‘

    Hmm may be I also
    ‘hate your freedom and your way of life’
    hhhh

    ‘but get the facts right. Here are the commie murder totals:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM&#8217;

    ………………………………..
    ‘communist China (about 27,000,000 dead from 1959-61)’

    Your ‘source’ throw around lots of bombastic figures,
    but where’s the Context, citations ???

    The trouble with murkkans is they couldnt even differentiate bet fact and fiction.

    Crime investigation for dummies.

    These are verifiable facts….

    Was it your son whose bombs hit a bridge in central Serbia crowded with traffic and pedestrians on a Sunday afternoon, where 17 people were wounded and nine people died, including “a priest with his head blasted away?” (Reuters, 30 May).

    Or was it your son who, four minutes after the initial attack, hit the bridge again just as help arrived for the surviving victims?

    - Was it your son whose bombs decapitated a Serbian child? “We found the head of a child in a garden and many limbs in the mud. But you don’t want to report that.

    CNN filmed the bodies, but they don’t show them on television” (The Independent, 29 April).

    Unless you wann tell me Reuters of all media, was embarking on an disinfo campaign to smear fukus ?
    hhhhhh

    ‘‘Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars’

    The indon genocide in 1965 alone killed at least 3m,

    ‘Chiang Kai Shek killed 10m’

    Who backed Suharto, Chiang , trained and sold arms to their shock troops ?

    The Shah of Iran,
    The Ngo bros of SVnam,
    The Pinochets,
    The Saddam HUssein,/,,,,,

    How many did they killed, who was their mentor ?

    USA was complicit in at least 30m deaths by proxies…

    The hundreds of murkkan wars of aggressions since ww2 killed another 30m, by a very conservative estimate .

    ‘Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars, and most of those are from WW2 bombing which I’m not sure even counts’

    Where did I hear that one before ?

    The evolution of murkkan apologists for genocides,

    ‘whats all the fuss, innocents always get killed in wars’ ! [1]

    ‘sorry we dont count collateral damages’
    [dehumanising the dead!
    was it Bush ?]

    ‘MADdline Albright
    [500000 Iraqi children are worth it !]

    Trust Trump to have the last word on this,
    ‘collateral damages is a fact of life, get used to it’

    So USA didnt killed 60m defenceless civilians,
    hell, it ‘barely breaks half a million’ ,
    hmm, something to be proud of, [2]

    But HEY, those Maoists must be held accountable for the xxxm they murdered in the GLF/CR

    hhhhhh

    [1]
    Harold Pinter
    I was present at a meeting at the US embassy in London in the late 1980s.

    The United States Congress was about to decide whether to give more money to the Contras in their campaign against the state of Nicaragua. I was a member of a delegation speaking on behalf of Nicaragua but the most important member of this delegation was a Father John Metcalf. The leader of the US body was Raymond Seitz (then number two to the ambassador, later ambassador himself). Father Metcalf said: ‘Sir, I am in charge of a parish in the north of Nicaragua. My parishioners built a school, a health centre, a cultural centre. We have lived in peace. A few months ago a Contra force attacked the parish. They destroyed everything: the school, the health centre, the cultural centre. They raped nurses and teachers, slaughtered doctors, in the most brutal manner. They behaved like savages. Please demand that the US government withdraw its support from this shocking terrorist activity.’

    Raymond Seitz had a very good reputation as a rational, responsible and highly sophisticated man. He was greatly respected in diplomatic circles. He listened, paused and then spoke with some gravity. ‘Father,’ he said, ‘let me tell you something.
    In war, innocent people always suffer.’
    There was a frozen silence.

    We stared at him. He did not flinch.

    [2]
    Harold Pinter,
    ‘It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn’t happening. It didn’t matter. It was of no interest. The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It’s a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.

    I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road.

    Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It’s a winner. Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, ‘the American people’, as in the sentence, ‘I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.’

  333. Erebus says:

    well, which part of that has to do with the inputs in our discussion?

    The salient parts are the ones that come after, that you didn’t quote. I get the distinct impression you’re getting the peripherals, but the decisive points aren’t getting through so we keep going round & round 1 spot.

    Had you read the rest of my points regarding the trade balance, you’d see the very likely results of the “comparison” you seem determined to make.
    Go to the links, particularly the latter which is very good and intuitive, and do some exploring. You’ll see that China imports only those manufactured goods it can’t make – like Boeings & high end chipsets – or can’t make well – like Caterpillars and some chemicals (if we’re talking about the US). The US, meanwhile imports a vast array of manufactured goods from China, based not on any in/ability to make it, but based on price and the fact that there’s no obvious penalty for doing so.
    A quick back-of-the-napkin calculation indicates that China sells 4-5x more manufactured goods to the US than the reverse. Do you think the US’ Apple Corps are gonna reverse that, much less reverse the component part of it? If you do, I haven’t the foggiest idea how to go about disabusing you of the notion except to suggest you go to the numbers.

    US Customs publishes very good data and it’s easy to find. Look up the data, do your calcs, and I’d wager 10:1 that you’ll come up with a graph that looks like the Manufacturing Employment curve at the Fed.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  334. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    ”Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.”

    I dont give a sh*t about modi. But isnt china doing the above?

    • Replies: @Lin
  335. @Erebus

    those manufactured goods would already be counted towards the chinese total mfg. again, it has nothing to do with our discussion as it it already counted towards the chinese total mfg output.

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.

    I would continue to quote this as you continue to ignore it :)

    China imports only those manufactured goods it can’t make – like Boeings & high end chipsets – or can’t make well – like Caterpillars and some chemicals (if we’re talking about the US). The US, meanwhile imports a vast array of manufactured goods from China, based not on any in/ability to make it, but based on price and the fact that there’s no obvious penalty for doing so.

    what is wrong with the chinese importing stuff they can’t make? isn’t it obvious? as everything they can make is going to be cheaper than importing from the usa. isn’t it obvious? that means it is also importing on price. importing what it needs and can’t make is so obvious it doesn’t even need to be mentioned. you can’t spin this, you can try, but you can’t.

    you seem to like to dwell on stuff that is completely unrelated to the point.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  336. What if China was only a fraction of its size and population, would its National Socialist, public capitalism model be so impressive without such a huge internal market? Not really, as it is precisely the size of the internal market that also allows such a huge government to be able to rule without revolution, by way of keeping the Jack Ma bourgeoisie happy. We shall see if enough Jack Mas are happy in the future, or if enough proles get eventually resentful at the Jack Mas. Or if the state within the state, the famed PLA, eventually grows too big and/or resentful even for the current military-industrial complex to hold it… not to mention, beating up hapless Tibetans and Muslims will not be the same as the arms race that looms with powers abroad…

    Furthermore, the way the National Socialist Chinese regime dumps away credit to Third World nations may or may not follow the same overextended credit pattern that ruined Pax Americana… and if pesky little Greece ruined Europe, what would happen if several nations, including maybe even the US, defaulted on the Chinese? How low can you go, yuan?

    Furthermore, what would China and other Confucian-raised cultures be without thousands of years of emphasis on discipline and structure? Culture that the Paramount Leader nearly erased from the earth to replace with backyard steel furnaces, by the way, if it was not for Deng.

    Anyway, I know your overlords might probably win, but don’t try to convert us before that happens. Will need to see to believe.
    Plus, freedom is okay.

  337. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    You’re becoming annoying.

    I would continue to quote this as you continue to ignore it :)

    I didn’t. You just didn’t notice that I gave you the recipe, some helpful links (esp. the MIT link), and even did some quick back-of-napkin calcs to start you on the path to answering the question you’re obsessing over. If you’re hoping I’ll do the rest of the legwork for you, you’ll be disappointed.

    People with “zero back ground in mfg” need to educate themselves if they want answers to questions about manufacturing that aren’t available nicely packaged and delivered to their computer screen for the asking. You need it answered, so get the answer. You may have to build a spreadsheet, but if you have the necessary “background” for that, it shouldn’t be more than a few day’s work.

    In answer to your snark, I’ll also not try to convince you that your judgement of “irrelevancy” is a product of same ignorance you applied to the calculation of Real Manufacturing Output. That you now apply it to how/what things get made & traded across international borders, with almost the same level of pompous certainty, is a bridge too far for me. The legwork, should you choose to do it, will teach you that as well and may eventually show you why my points were relevant after all.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  338. @Erebus

    I have never asked you to do the leg work, simply asked if you have the figures. you then asked me to “comb through the US Customs import/export data” you have to be out of your mind. the pompous guy making some outlandish claims is asking his opponent to prove his “claim” wrong :))) the onus is on you to prove you are right. you made that claim. provide the numbers. oh noes, you don’t have the numbers?

    annoyed? what, someone who doesn’t take ur bullshit, excuse me, “claim” at face value? annoyed? good. maybe that will stop you from making similar claims in the future.

    what recipe? using completely unrelated data to prove your point? please.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  339. Erebus says:

    Your original claim, that US manufacturing activity (citing the Fed’s RMO) is both rising and becoming more “efficient” (vs a still unspecified denominator) is the contentious claim (#232) that started this discussion. Having learned that you totally misunderstood the RMO you were citing (“woah, this is new to me”), and having been shown that your misunderstanding actually undercut your claim, you shifted the goalposts.

    Largely by implication, you now appear to be claiming that that your original claim stands, or at least isn’t proven false unless I provide data on trade in “components” showing the opposite. The latter, of course, doesn’t exist as a tracked goods category under any Industrial Code System I’m familiar with, and is prima facie virtually untrackable in any case.

    OTOH, my only claim is that there is nothing indicating that US manufacturing is rising, or becoming significantly more efficient, and that the “indicators” I mentioned (employment, energy use, raw material inputs, etc) point to collapsing US manufacturing activity. IOW, the case that manufacturing is falling has been made as well as it can be in a complex environment, and no contrary indicators have surfaced to cast doubt on that conclusion.
    Not definitive, but that’s normally as good as it gets in quantizing wide economic activity.

    As you mentioned that you hadn’t been able to find data on trade in “components”, I offered the MIT link which does some of the work of extrapolating “components” from the import/export data in the mistaken belief you’d want to pursue it. It turns out that you don’t.
    As it sits, having made an unsubstantiated claim, against all the currently available evidence indicating the opposite, you think the onus is on me to provide the data that proves it conclusively false. A novel position. I thinks your original claim’s actual status remains “specious” and that’s the end of it.

  340. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    >”The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !”<”Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !<”These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !”STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !”How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    Oh so this the reason for all that hate? Because you think india played a part in the 59 tibet riots? Lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between china and india.

    Here are the events that actually happened.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

  341. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    >”The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !””
    What does western media say about india?
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !”

    When did it all began. And also dont chinese swarm those sites and write anti india stuff. I dont know i am asking you.

    ”These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !”STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !”

    Link me ot those chinese sites, i wont comment i just want to see. Also why do you think its walys indians who are using western names when some westerns too think they have issues about chinese. They are not capable of writing comments about chinese?. But hey believe what you want to believe.

    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    So this is the reason for all that hatred, you think india was involved in the tibetan uprising? Oh my god. Do you know that for a fact. Reading some random blog and believing it as true? Or is this i said china gave nukes to pak. If its because of the second reason then i have nothing to say. But if its for the first reason. A lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between indians and chinese or to drive traffic to their blog. But if you still want to assume india was responsible for it, do it. But then you have to let indians assume a lot of things about chinese too. That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. But if we keep on assuming relations between indians and chinese will never improve.

    Also regarding the 1962 war

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    '

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @DB Cooper
    , @denk
  342. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    In my first part of my comment i meant to say what does chinese media say about india.

  343. Erebus says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    See #347. No idea why it didn’t post as a proper reply.

  344. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    “…”Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.”

    I dont give a sh*t about modi. But isnt china doing the above?…”

    Look, repeating the accusation doesn’t make the accusation valid.

    I can see Bharat was beaten in military, economics, tech… arenas but your attempt to play victim has failed.
    (And I’ve quoted valid facts like the Henderson Brooke report and uranium from candu reactor )

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  345. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    I only repeated it because you implied i was wrong about it. Thats why i asked it. Also i implied india may have taken uranium from canada. Also regarding book report i said that if you provide me with evidence about it i will accept it. When you quoted that particular comment of mine in your reply, you left this part out. I thought it was deliberate, but it looks like you didnt read it.

    • Replies: @Lin
  346. lmfao says:

    Name ONE thing, just one, that you’d prefer to be made in China rather than in any other industrialized nation. Not even Chinese food…
    When I go to a store, and see Made in China the thought is, “oh, another Chinese crap!” Chinese is still a synonym for shoddy quality, and often dangerously unsafe or cynically contrived widgets designed to be cheap and last for just a few days. How do they manage to sell a watch on line for $1.99 including shipping? It boggles the mind–you can’t mail a letter to China for that! It’s not a good thing, the waste of resources that goes with this kind of shoddy merchandise alone should give us a pause in the praise. Haven’t been to China and, OK, they are building infrastructure at a break neck pace, let’s see if their bridges and buildings last longer than the $1.99 watch.

  347. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    Now you backtrack from “Yes we took nukes from canada,..” to ” i implied india may have taken uranium from Canada”, haha..
    Look I listed source from indian nationalist military site on the Henderson Brooke report and how nervous the hindus are regarding that leak. And the Henderson Brooke report can be downloaded for all to see. If you insist on your propaganda, great. I hope I didn’t add to your trauma.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  348. Erebus says:

    When I go to a store, and see Made in China the thought is, “oh, another Chinese crap!”

    If it’s a branded product, it was made and QC’d to a spec provided to the mfr by the Brand. Blame them. VWs, BMWs, Toyotas, Samsungs etc are exactly as “crappy” out of a Chinese factory as they are out of an German, American or Japanese factory.
    It’s when price drives the procurement process that quality necessarily takes a back seat. That, to be sure, happens a lot with unbranded, or off-branded products. “You get what you pay for” holds most, but not all of the time.

  349. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    You should know that China is not the only country India invaded. India has invaded and grabbed land from every single of its neighbors, China included. South Tibet, including Tawang was invaded and annexed by India in 1951, four years after the British left the subcontinent and India was created. You can’t blame it on the British on this one. South Tibet is still occupied by India to this day. It is one of the two United Nation recognized disputed territories of India. The other one being Kashmir.

  350. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    Because i am not hundred percent sure they have taken. But even if they took it….it is between india and canada. It doesnt concern china. Why are you so hung up with india taking nukes from canada? China should have nukes but india shouldnt? China should be able to be friends with anybody they want, but india shouldnt even try be friendly with U.S or anybody? What the F is this? And what ‘propaganda’ am i doing? I said i will accept the evidence, what does it mean!!!!!!!!!!?????????????? From the beginning you were more interested in painting me and my comments as something than actually trying to disprove them.

  351. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Its like you want win the argument using my statements about the canada nuclear issue, but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between canada and india.

    • Replies: @Lin
  352. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    “..Its like you want win the argument using my statements about the canada nuclear issue, but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between canada and india…”
    ………………..
    Lets say Pakistan imported a power-generation reactor and then took the uranium out to make a bomb and test it..
    ” but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between China and Pakistan..”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  353. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    ‘Here are the events that actually happened.’
    [sic]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    Why are you still flogging a dead horse ,?

    This is insider info from
    ex Aussie diplomat Gregory Clark

    ‘ At the time I was a junior China desk officer in the Australian
    Department of External Affairs. One needed only to look at a map to
    discover that the hostilities had begun after India moved troops
    into the Thagla Ridge area, north of the official version of the
    McMahon Line, which India was claiming as its northernmost frontier.
    .
    In other words, India must have started the fighting. I made it my job to find out whether the British Foreign Office and the U.S. State Department agreed, which they did, reluctantly.[sic]

    Did you find a gem in that wiki which disprove Clark’s testimony ?
    Otherwise its Case Closed !

    ———————-
    1959 Tibet ‘uprising’….

    Declassified US embassy correspondence shows that Delhi was up to its eyeballs in the 1959 ‘uprising’, in cahoot with the CIA.
    After the Dalai clique fled to India, CIA/RAW recruited young Tibetans and trained them into a guerilla force to carry out sabotages in China.

    Excerpts from a United States Foreign Service Top Secret Memorandum of Conversation between the Tsepon Shakabpa, acting as the personal representative of the Dalai Lama, and Fraser Wilkins, the First Secretary of the US Embassy in New Delhi. The conversation took place on 24 May 1951.

    The United States is prepared to fulfil the Dalai Lama’s request for military assistance:

    We are prepared to send you light arms through India… We will also give consideration to supplying you with loans of money to keep up the resistance.”

    The conditions the US applies: The Dalai Lama leaves Tibet; the Dalai Lama issues a statement disavowing the agreement his delegates made with Communist China; the Dalai Lama organise resistance to the Chinese Communists.

    The Dalai Lama established a secret Tibetan unit within the Indian Army – the shadowy ‘Establishment 22’.

    The cable releases reveal that the Dalai Lama’s secret army received a steady stream of new recruits from the Tibetan Children’s Village Schools. As the cable says: ‘Membership in Establishment 22 was compulsory for Tibetan students graduating from Tibetan Children’s Village (TCV) schools until the late 1980s’.

    These schools were set up for the destitute children and orphans amongst the Tibetan refugee community with international aid donations.

    How ironic that in the lead up to receiving the Nobel peace prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama was forcing orphans under his care into military service in his secret army.

    “While at school at the Central School for Tibetans in Mussoorie, my classmates and I used to sing a song that went, “Chocho mangmi la madro, haapen bholo yoki rae”, which translates to “O brother don’t go to the army, they will make you wear those loose half-pants”. Although we sang this song in every grade, it was only years later that the true meaning of those words finally dawned on me. Each year as the seniors graduated, we would see trucks waiting at the school gate – Indian Army trucks, all set to cart many of the graduating students off to the barracks for training. At the time I was confused, and wondered why these new graduates were not simply going home.” Tashi Dhundup

    The CIA, together with it’s Indian equivalent the RAW, and the Tibetan Resistence fighters Chushi Gangdruk, formed ‘Establishment 22’ in 1962. There can be no doubt that it is ‘Establishment 22’ that the CIA are here referring to as the ‘paramilitary arm of the Tibetan Government in Exile’. Furthermore, although nominally part of the Indian army, history shows who really commands Establishment 22.

    https://followersofdorjeshugden.com/wikileaks/

    ————————–

    That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. ‘

    I knew all that,
    Been saying all along, the Indians are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates !
    hhhhhh

    just to show you one example,
    The Indians blame their maoists movements on China/Nepal [sic],
    Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !

    Talk about ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  354. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    let me ask you a question, if india gives nukes to taiwan or japan(it wont) but lets assume hypothetically for the sake of this discussion, that it gives them those….will you treat it just as an issue between india and those countries?

    • Replies: @Lin
  355. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    >”Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !<''

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?

    Also if that wikileaks thing is true, it must have started because of this:

    ''In 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ''

    They entered into aksai chin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @denk
  356. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    >> if india gives nukes to taiwan or japan <<

    First of all. Japan is the most tech advanced asian country and has no need for hindu help; Though it's not impossible, its highly unlikely even if Japan want to get nukes. Other than tech matters,it complicates thing.
    (look, my hindi bhai, I don't mean to hurt your pride; Bharat still has problem making good rifles:
    http://indianexpress.com/article/india/army-rejects-indigenously-built-rifles-for-second-year-in-a-row-4715758/ )
    Taiwan is not a country.It's a Chinese province. It's a fact recognized by India. It's a fact recognized by almost all the nations on earth(except a handful)
    Pakistan is an independent country. It's a fact recognized by India.
    India will not give nukes to Taiwan because of 3 reasons:
    1)India is not a technological advanced country and even if the TW separatist gov wants to get nukes, it has other channels. Look, technically getting a few nukes isn't exactly a big deal these days.
    2)India will not give nukes to Taiwan because the hindus dare not risk Chinese wrath.
    3)Its highly unlikely the TW separatist gov wants to get nukes because Taiwan geographically has no defence in depth. The Taiwan Strait is their prime line of defense,not nuke matters. The Taiwan 'armed forces' are well known for their morale problems.
    …………………………………
    Actually a more sensible question would be 'What if india gives nukes to Vietnam ?'
    It's unlikely because:
    1)china will massively and justifiably supply nuke knowhow to Pakistan
    2)Vietnam is a narrow strip of land on the eastern coast of indo-china and has no defense in depth. A 10 megaton hydrogen bomb will effectively sever Vietnam into 2 halves.
    3)If the Viets acquire nukes entirely on their efforts. China might not protest much. Laos and Cambodia might ask for Chinese protection.
    I'm sure Vietnam has contemplated getting nukes, but so far it hasn't. I doubt tech nor money is the real resaons. Even though China and Vietnam have their quarrels and difference, I don’t think the viets are stupid.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  357. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    So it wont be just an issue between india or taiwan/japan then if india gives nukes to them, then? Thanks! All that cr*p just to say this?

  358. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    And dont automatically assume i am a ‘bhai’ or even a ‘behen’ or even ‘didi’ or from a religious point of view assume of me as a ‘hindu’ or ‘muslim’ or ‘christian’ or jain or sikh or parsee.

    I could be any one of the above. So dont typecast me into one of the above.

    Stick to the argument if you can and dont do name calling or address me as something. People like you (i dont mean chinese, i mean specifically people like you) i find repulsive. (Based on how you have been speaking to me from the beginning). You can win the argument without doing these, cant you?

  359. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    ”In 1950, the Chinese People’s Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ”
    They entered into aksai chin.

    Tibet is part of China longer than the United States. Tibet has been recognized to be part of China by most countries in the world (including Britain, US…etc) long before Communist China even exist. That the issue of Tibet even exists is because the British Raj try to carve Tibet out of China during the heydays of colonialism. Hong Kong was not the only territory the British coveted. It is totally justified according to international law that any country has the rights to resist part of its territory from being carved out. The PLA entered into Tibet is totally legit.

    Aksai Chin has always been part of China. It was never part of British India.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  360. @DB Cooper

    The British did not simply invade other states in India. The Dominion of India invaded over 600 independent territories after independence. Some were tiny but some were large and functional as separate countries. She n Britain was around, they didn’t need armies so we’re helpless.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  361. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?

    YOu havent been paying attention dude,

    Every Nepalese and his dog knows Maoists were harbored and trained in India !

    ‘“Who sheltered them? Who trained them? This is an open secret.

    A parliamentary delegation had gone there (New Delhi). They were shown a five star hotel and a room and told that this was here Pushpa Kamal [Nepalese maoists head honcho] had lived for eight years.”

    In a hotel just in front of the parliamentary building Girija Babu had met with Pushpa Kamal for the first time. The then Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes was also present there. To meet Pushpa Kamal for the second time, Girija Babu was put in an Indian Navy helicopter in New Delhi to go to an Agriculture Farm some 22 kilometers far.

    What more proof you want ?’

    http://www.telegraphnepal.com/headline/2015-01-08/nepal-maoist:-indian-trojan-horse-comrade-rohit-talks-to-media

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  362. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html

    As i implied dont address me as dude or dudette or anything. Stick to the discussion.Cant do that?

    • Replies: @denk
  363. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Philip Owen

    Those territories were already ‘indian’ to begin with.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  364. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    everything is part of china, even india is part of china!

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  365. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    “Those territories were already ‘indian’ to begin with.”

    You should know that had not the bully British cobbled together disparage people of the subcontinent along the railway the British built and made it into a single polity called British India, modern India would not have even existed. The concept of being an ‘Indian’ is a very recent one. Even Gandhi does not know he was an Indian until he was classified as one when he boarded a train in South Africa. There is no such thing as already ‘Indian’ to begin with. India is an artificial country created as a result of de-colonialization in the last century, much like a lot of the countries in the middle east and Africa and South America.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  366. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    In case you don’t know part of China is still occupied by India. South Tibet was invaded and annexed by India in 1951, four years after the British Raj left the subcontinent. According to international law India is entitled to whatever land grab the Raj has stole but not anymore. This land grab is solely under the new country India.

    In case you don’t know where is South Tibet it was renamed by India to the so called ‘Arunachal Pradesh’ in 1987 to fool the people of the world by giving it a Hindu sounding name.

  367. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    Lol there was a concept of ‘bharat’ since millenia. Also bharat khand. And bharateeya too. It means indian. british only helped in ‘political’ unification. Heck even that was done by indians mostly, read philipp’s comment above. And this unification was there in various ways earlier also. Under the maratha empire, the mauryan empire, the gupta empire etc. Read entire indian history from the beginning if you are interested. The word ‘india’ is a modern word, not the country. I can say a lot of similar things about china, dont provoke me please.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  368. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Its one thing to say india did this or that, and its an entirely different thing to say stuff like india is not even a country or it didnt even exist before. There was no need to say all that.

  369. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    “Lol there was a concept of ‘bharat’ since millenia. ”

    You are confusing mythology with history. The mauryan empire and others are cooked up by pseudo British historians like James Prinseps and others during the Raj to help to forge a sense of community across disparage groups to facilitate British rule. It was ridiculed and never taken seriously during the Raj era among Indian’s scholar because they saw through it as yet another colonial duplicity for the benefit of the Raj. A unified polity in the subcontinent whether under what name it is has never existed until the British arrived and created one. India is an artificial country created as a result of de-colonialization and there is nothing wrong with that. Indians should be honest and proud with themselves and not try to be something they are not.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  370. Hu Mi Yu says:
    @Anonymous

    These are the people of aksai chin, do they look chinese?

    No, because they are mostly Indian, Pakistani, and Afgan:

    Bakarwal (or Gujjar – Bakharwal) is a mostly-Sunni Muslim[3] nomadic tribe based in the Pir Panjal and Himalayan mountains of South Asia. They are mainly goatherds and shepherds. They are found in the entire Kashmir region of India and in the Nuristan province of Afghanistan

    Possibly a few of them do live in Aksai Chin, but your link leads to images of Bakarwal nomads.

    China is also a large county with many different “looks”.

  371. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html

    forchrissake, !
    I already told you the Bharat and the MSM are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates.

    They even had the cheek to accuse China as the mastermind behind the 2001 Nepalese palace bloodbath…
    When every NEpalese and his dog believe its the handiwork of
    CIA/RAW !

    stop throwing Indian cow dungs at me !
    I wanna see smoking guns !
    Such as the Clark testimony, the declassified murkkan embassy mails,
    the five star hotel that harbor Nepalese maoists head honcho…

    As i implied dont address me as dude or dudette or anything. Stick to the discussion.Cant do that?

    This is an adult site, dude !

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  372. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    >>”forchrissake, !
    I already told you the Bharat and the MSM are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates.<>They even had the cheek to accuse China as the mastermind behind the 2001 Nepalese palace bloodbath…
    When every NEpalese and his dog believe its the handiwork of
    CIA/RAW !<>stop throwing Indian cow dungs at me !
    I wanna see smoking guns !
    Such as the Clark testimony, the declassified murkkan embassy mails,
    the five star hotel that harbor Nepalese maoists head honcho…”<<

    Who accused china of that? me?

    Also its you all who have been throwing cow dung at me from the beginning here.

    And you want to see something like a five star hotel where chinese could have plotted to supply maoists in india? I dont know which hotel they plotted it in.

    And i know this is an adult site so start acting like one. Address my comments not personal attacks or name calling or addressing me personally as dude or dudette or hindu or muslim etc

    • Replies: @denk
  373. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    Wise guy,

    Can you explain why the so-called Indian NE folks definitely look like Chinese rather than Indian ?

    You can start with the Nagas,

    Here’s their blood soaked story…

    https://www.quora.com/Will-Nagaland-and-Manipur-get-freedom-from-India

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  374. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    ‘Also its you all who have been throwing cow dung at me from the beginning here.’

    Hey kid.,

    I show you….

    1] testimony from Oz, murkkan and those perfidious albions, all Indian soul mates, that Indian troops intruded way beyond the Indian claimed Mcmahon line into Chinese territories, you cant get more authentic than that !

    2]De-classified murkkan embassy files documenting Indian complicity in the 1959 Tibet riots and later destabilisations.

    3] Nepalese parliamentary fact finding team’s eye-witness account of meeting with Nepalese maoist chief in Delhi, in the presence of Indian defence minister !

    You throw me a god damned wiki link on 1962
    and a claim by the notorious Indian intel on China.

    Who’s the one throwing Indian cow dungs ?

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html&#8217;

    Im still waiting for your evidence ?
    like I say, you and your murkkan soul mates cant even differentiate bet
    fact and fiction !
    hhhhhh

    ‘And i know this is an adult site so start acting like one. Address my comments not personal attacks or name calling or addressing me personally as dude or dudette or hindu or muslim etc’

    sorry you just dont get it !
    This is an adult site,
    meaning we dont beat about the bush,
    we like to call a spade a spade.

    If you cant take the heat…….

  375. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    If its true, then it is really sad. As an indian i am very ashamed of it. I have no qualms in saying it. It should not have happened. As an indian i really deeply apologize to the nagas. But the last people in the world who can point fingers at indians are the chinese. You people conquered and occupied aksai chin, tibet, xingiang, inner-mongolia, manchuria, and then run around telling people that india occupied all its neighbors?? And then say stuff ”robber calling robbery”?? And on top of of it also say stuff like india is not even a country? WTF? Also, we saw accounts of what indians did, but we dont know what chinese did in those territories they occupied because there wasnt equivalent free media there. Tibetan monks burning themselves is one example (and if you have any sh*me you will admit like i did that it was wrong on the part of the chinese, and instead wont do stuff like deliberately passing blame by saying stuff like indian intelligence agencies paid them to do it).

    Will you judge your own country by the same standards you judge india? Will you own up to your countries mistakes like i did? I will see.

    • Replies: @denk
  376. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    That said its really sad what happened in nagaland. I am just saying. Even if you dont admit to what your country did i will still stand by this. It really should not have happened. India doesnt need somebody else’s land or resources, it didnt have to do it. Some people believe nagas had support of foreign elements and/or china which were encouraging secession of nagaland from india (but i dont believe it, i dont think any foreign country including china supported nagas, i dont think any foreign country or china had a hand in it). But indian govt thought so and also because it thought nagaland and other north-eastern state was/is indian territory in which nagas came and settled. I personally dont know if nagaland was originally a part of india or not.

    In spite of all this, indians still should not have done all that. If the nagas really did not want to part with the land india should have just let them break away. Its really not worth doing all that.

    • Replies: @denk
  377. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    As expected, you’ve zero evidence to back up that Indian intel [sic] B,S. !
    Indians and their anglo soul mates malign others of doing what they’r actually doing themselves,
    Thats classic anglo/Indian M.O.,
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    ‘but we dont know what chinese did in those territories they occupied because there wasnt equivalent free media there. ‘

    EXACTLY !
    You and your anglo soul mates fabricated stories about Tibet ‘oppressions’, while India has been committing genocides in its own part of Tibet.

    Thats classic
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    ‘And on top of of it also say stuff like india is not even a country? WTF

    ?

    What we say is , *India was not even a country until the god damned Brits stitch it up and laid a mine field in Asia*,
    Eveybody in Asia and his dog knows it…
    ‘The British Empire after over 300 years of colonial rule created India by cobbling independent princely states and territories and gave it independence in 1947 together with Pakistan’

    ffhttps://www.asia-pacificresearch.com/why-is-sri-lanka-granting-india-control-over-our-national-and-energy-security/5582980

    ‘Will you judge your own country by the same standards you judge india? Will you own up to your countries mistakes like i did? I will see.’

    Wrong again wise guy, !

    Im NOT a Chinese citizen.

    But I’d condemn China the same way I call out murkkan/Indian B.S.,
    If I see any evidence of Its wrong doings !

    hhhhh

    • Replies: @denk
  378. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    And Manipur….

    Does she look Indian or Chinese ?

    Dragged from her bed in the middle of the night , raped infront of her family, kidnapped to the army barrack and gang raped again., then killed and dumped in the field.
    autopsy showed multiple gun shot wounds at her private part , apparently to ofuscate the crime.

    http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2118/stories/20040910007400400.htm

    Killers still at large , committing the same crimes all over the NE and Kashmir.
    Not a peep from those god damned anglo ‘human rights crusaders’
    hhhhhhh

    The assamese

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070814055827/http://www.telegraphnepal.com/news_det.php?news_id=1362

    The so-called seven sisters,
    Arunachal Pradesh. Assam. Manipur. Meghalaya. Mizoram. Nagaland. Sikkim. Tripura. in the Indian NE
    Every ‘sister’ has a blood curdling story to tell .

    Why do they all look like Chinese and how did they end up in India ?

    Here’s a dirty little secret !
    These were mostly part of Southern Tibet and its peripherals until it was carved out from China by your Brit soul mates, those that escaped the Brits dirty paws were mopped up by India after it got it’s own independence !
    Like ‘father’ like son eh ?
    You got your independence but the others werent allowed to get theirs ?

    THIS IS
    THE TIBET THAT NO ANGLOS/INDIANS WANNA TALK ABOUT !

    The next time you question China’s sovereignty in Tibet, remember there’r four fingers pointing back to you.

    Ergo,
    its classic ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

  379. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I suspected it, you wont accept what china did in tibet and also pass that blame to to india. Also one has to do a cursory reading of china history to know that aksai chin, tibet, xinjiang , inner mongolia manchuria are not part of china. (i only questioned china soveriegnity in tibet because you people said stuff like…. india is not even a country and instead occupied all its lands.) Also there are numerous links on the net about tibetan monks burning themselves. Also regarding northeast i already said what indians did in some parts of north east india was bad. But these are rogue elements that dont represent all indians. Anti-social elements exist in every society. But i know you will still blame all the indians for it. So blame them, blame all of them a hundred times more.

    Regarding british rule in inda, british barely had control of india for not more than 15o-200 years and that too they didnt control it entirely. But you said they had it for 300 years. This shows your ignorance right here. And you think you are qualified to judge whether india is a country or not? Also i forgot even tibetans dont consider all north eastern states as tibet. Also all people who look mongoloid are not chinese. You know it damn well. A lot of egyptians look like indians and vice versa but they are not the same country.

    • Replies: @denk
  380. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    ‘I suspected it, you wont accept what china did in tibet and also pass that blame to to india. ‘

    No its your hallucination. !

    I only point out there’r actually two Tibets.

    The Tibet proper in China enjoys free education, full subsidise in economy, exemption from one child rule…

    The Tibet in India, the one that no anglos/Indians wanna talk about,
    has AFSPA to bludgeon the ‘chinki faced terrorists‘, thats what the Indian heartlanders call the NE folks. !

    But the fukus led west totally ignore the genocides in India’s Tibet, bark 24×7 on ‘oppression’ in Tibet proper in China , sobs even engineered violent riots to ‘prove’ their point.

    ‘Also one has to do a cursory reading of china history to know that aksai chin, tibet, xinjiang , inner mongolia manchuria are not part of china.’

    Exactly, cursory is the word !

    Do you know why the Great Wall was built, kid ?
    well I’ve got news for you ……
    Its to stop the marauding Tibetens, Mongols, Manchus !

    In case you havent noticed,
    The Mongols, Manchus , Tibetans werent defenceless pussies cowering under the Hans jack boots, they were a constant menace at the Chinese border.
    The Mongols eventually conquered China, they later added Tibet to the empire !
    When the Hans toppled the Yuan under Mongols, it ushered in the Ming dynasty.
    Then the Manchus came in, thats was the Qing, the Manchu later added Xinjiang to the map ! ;-)

    Thats thousands yrs ago forchrissake,
    The days of warring tribes, its survival of the fittest.
    The Hans defended themselves against invading hordes for thousands of years, they eventually prevailed.

    You gotta hand it to the Hans, they didnt take revenge on the Mongols , Manchus who committed genocides during their rule, instead the vanquised invaders were allowed to assimilate and become part of the family !

    OTOH,
    Indian/murkkan imperialism happen in 20/21C, The supposedly civilised era !
    its real, right here, right now, right before our eyes !
    They committed genocides on defenceless people, the Nagas, Manipur, Assamese, Kashmiris,……Iraqis, Vietnamese. ,, Indonesians, .Japanese , Africans….
    In addition, The Indians always indulge in sadistic mass rapes orgies on the conquered people !

    There’s no comparison bet the Chinese defensive wars thousands yrs ago, to current days Indian/anglo imperialistic conquests !

    Ergo,
    When China baiters yap about Chinese ‘imperialism’ on Tibet and Mongol, [sic] Manchu , They are really scraping the bottom of barrel, or downright clueless !

    ‘ tibetan monks burning themselves. ‘

    we know Tibet unrest is made in fukus/India,
    I have evidence the Tibetan refugees phenomenon is orchestrated by CIA/RAW,
    eRGO,
    Its highly plausible the self imolations are instigated by CIA/RAW/

    ‘Also regarding northeast i already said what indians did in some parts of north east india was bad. But these are rogue elements that dont represent all indians.
    Anti-social elements exist in every society. But i know you will still blame all the indians for it. So blame them, blame all of them a hundred times more.’ [SIC]

    Rogue elements my ass !
    Check out on AFSPA !
    It sanctions ‘shooting on sight’, ‘search without warrant’,
    it allows soldiers to break into a suspect’s house in the middle of the night,
    commit unmentionable crimes on the “suspect’s family,
    it bestow total immunity from prosecution,
    In short, Its state terrorism !

    India/fukus are the world’s top three rogue nations.
    Indians and their anglos soul mates are the last peope on earth to lecture China on human rights and imperialism.
    That’d be classic
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    hhhhhhh

    I REST MY CASE.

  381. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The AFSPA doesnt allow rapes if thats what you think. But hey as i said blame all of them for it. Keep on doing it. Keep blaming every single one of them for it. Do it a hundred thousand times. Also N.E is not tibet. And some of the rest of your comment too can verified if its true or not by simple online searching. And/but a lot of what china does is ‘secretive’ the media is tightly controlled so we will never really know what happened in those places.

    • Replies: @Lin
  382. Lin says:
    @Anonymous


    The rapes rampages are not confined to victims of Southern Tibet. Also happened to dalits of Bengal ..and Kashmiri muslims
    I congrat the hindu nationalist that the atrocities of their army were ignored because 1)they are useful anti-Chinese pawns 2)brown Aryans want to be accepted as sun tanned cousins of the white Aryans 3)As much as ex-president kalam claimed Bharat will be superpower by 2012, honestly the western powers do not consider them as serious contenders of power

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  383. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    Thank you lin. And now blame all the indian soldiers. And then dont stop at that, blame all other indians of rape too. Wait..acccuse me of rape too, I am a rapist, i raped tons of people, i even raped anim*ls too. And not just rape accuse all of us of other crimes too, we are thieves, beggars, slumdogs, robbers, burglars, we robbed every thing from everybody, india is not even a country… it stole land from others. We originally came from a place called sh*ttistan and kicked and killed the original inhabitants of india the… you guessed it….chinese…and settled there. We are 4.7 ugly ducklings (remember that?) while you are 5.7 hr beautiful maidens. We eat where we sh*t, while you are so special you dont even have to sh*t. You are the great han while we are the great low IQ slumdogs. You are the middle kingdom, and you have the mandate of heaven. You people are truly great, truly special, so special that other people should worship the ground you walk on. And we are just the opposite. China should have nukes, have relations with everybody while india should not even exist. Everything that happens to china is india’s fault and everything that happens to india is india’s fault. Chinese are special , they do no wrong, because they are the great han, while indians do every thing wrong, because we are slumdogs. And every single one of us is a rapist, thief, burglar, beggar etc etc etc etc etc

    • Replies: @Lin
  384. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    First of all, I don’t label hindus as slumdogs. Meaningless. As I always emphasise China is a poor 3rd world country.A good example is construction workers,relatively better paid, in bigger chinese cities make no more than the equivalent of US min. wage.
    I do observe a major difference between hindus and han chinese: A century ago,it was fashionable among the chinese intelligentia,particularly the left,to bash Confucius. Confucist ‘morality’ was equated to ‘cannibalism’. YES, FUCK CONFUCIUS. Waving a placard ‘Confucius is a S.O.B.’ in chinese streets nowadays without blocking traffic would not invite police interference nor a lynching mob. I dare say chinese are capable of retrospective self-examination. I guess it has to do with good chinese habit of history writing. The amount of pre-history chinese mythology is amazingly small.
    ………………
    The average chinese high school grads can read classical writings, albeit with some difficulty. Case in point, every chinese student learn a certain piece of history of the wars between kingdoms of Wu and Yue. The Yues were defeated, the king of Yue was imprisoned,then released back to his kingdom after licking the shit of the Wu king, revived his kingdom in 20 years and then defeated his enemy Wu kingdom.
    …………………….
    Ron Unz has observed correctly chinese are Social Darwinian survivalists, I would like to add China is geopolitical Darwinist survivalist ever since the Korean war and has been living under the threat of at least one superpower………………….
    Bharat on the other side has tomes of pre-history epics like the Mahabharata but grossly lacked historians and history readings until the muslims came. (At another forum, a hindus said I was wrong because he counted mythology and ancient songs as ‘agents’ of history,fact is where are the hindu history treatises?). Hindu society is/was decentralised/atomised as long as caste hierarchy is observed while chinese emperors always wanted ‘unity under heaven’.

    http://www.historytoday.com/mihir-bose/india%E2%80%99s-missing-historians

    A consequence is that Hindus lack political history intuition. For whatever they lack they try to substitute with mythical morality or religious symbolism. Much of these institutions are basically casteism sanctified.
    Another consequence(as a third world nation)is the apologetical attitude towards Bharat’s lack of modern tech achievement. So Mr. Modi told us, don’t worry, ancient Bharat was very advanced: the Hindu elephant god was the result of xeno-transplanting an elephant head to a human torso. While other hindu nationalists claim ancient hindus invented flying saucer.
    The above are the more entertaining attempts on pride manufacturing I’ve read. Here’s another example: https://thewire.in/110263/macaulays-speech-never-delivered/
    Finally, my apology if I hurt your hindu pride.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  385. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    The captions of most of the pics say those are ‘bakarwal’ people, a mainly Kashmir tribe, they are not the majority of south Tibetans

  386. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin

    All indians think the same too thing too…. what those one or two clowns think, so let me add this too….. all indians automatically think indians invented flying saucers and that ganesha thing too. But you dont get it, it is slumdog pride, how can low IQ slumdogs (you didnt label all of them as slumdogs, but i am labelling them because we are), and all of us are rapists, beggars, thieves, looters too. So how can we have real pride? You are the great han, you deserve to have pride, nothing wrong with that.

    • Replies: @Lin
  387. Lin says:
    @Anonymous

    My hindi Bhai,

    IQ is just one of the aptitude tests. No big deal. People attached too much racial meaning to it.
    ‘Pride’ is a fuzzy thing. I’ve little habit of defending Chinese ‘racial pride’ though I might occasionally clarify certain things, like bits of Chinese history. If someone call Chinese slant eye 5′ tall midgets, honestly I don’t give a fuck. I care more about Chinese environment, energy.. future more than hollow pride.

    Finally good luck to you and Bharat !

    Chini Hindi Bhai Bhai !!

  388. @denk

    I suggest reducing the number of “!” in your posts and only use boldface font to emphasize an operative point in a sentence that’s otherwise easily glossed over, don’t use it to suggest a raised voice. Both denote class and Americans are sensitive to that even when they claim it doesn’t exist – they will deny class exists at the same time as they dismiss your otherwise well-reasoned argument because you concluded it with:

    I REST MY CASE

    Americans are broadly ignorant of Chinese history and culture. Most know jack-shite about the Han or … anything. I mean if you want you can try to gauge your audience first by test-querying them on whether they get the idea of Cantonese versus Mandarin and geographic specifics – if they don’t … don’t be angry, just talk to them like they are children. Patiently. If they are humble about their ignorance, be respectful. If they are defiant with hubris, talk down to them. Don’t yell at them. Talk down to them, but be respectful when they defer within the space of their own ignorance.

    Be a teacher. We need to learn more about China. The Han get a bad rap, often under labels “Chinese” and “CCP”, so work to educate people on the differences. The Han have a proud history – one most Americans would respect if they knew it and understood it.

    Be careful when your narrative leaves Chinese borders – there you lose history and legitimate ethnic POV and start to come across as an apologist. The Indians have a POV, much of it, like yours, is valid.

  389. Joe Wong says:
    @Anonymous

    Before 1947 there never was a nation called “India.” “India” is a western imperialist creation to enslave the Asians against the will of the indigenous people of South Asia, it is illegitimate alien and harmful to the Asians. The current “India” is an extension of its former colonial master, British imperialist, spreading their toxic divide-and-conquer discord among the Asians. Unless this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva get destroyed this toxic cancer will destroy all humanity with its regressive, inhuman and barbaric caste system.

    Half of the “India” is in armed struggles against this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva regime in New Delhi; it is time to support those freedom fighters to shake off the inhuman caste system yoke impose on them by the Hindutva.

    BTW Tibetans are over-generous with their gratitude to their Indian hosts and are hesitant in reminding India of a small inconvenient truth: until 1951, the disputed border regions, Arurachal Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand, were neither Chinese nor Indian but Tibetan. Dalai Lama should ask Indian to give those historical Tibetan lands back and re-establish his theocratic serf kingdom again on those historical Tibetan lands.

  390. DB Cooper says:

    “Be careful when your narrative leaves Chinese borders – there you lose history and legitimate ethnic POV and start to come across as an apologist. The Indians have a POV, much of it, like yours, is valid.”

    I tried to be empathetic with Indian POV regarding its borders but I don’t see how it can be valid. For example regarding South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh) Indians POV is basically this: “Our master[the British Raj] said this land should be theirs and hence it should be ours now.” Never mind the fact that no Chinese government has ever agreed to this (Indian, not British) land grab and the Tibetans in South Tibet has a history of fighting against the British/Indian intruders. I can understand that as a successor state to the British Raj India is entitled to the land grab under the British but what is the argument of India’s claim to a piece of land grab annexed by India?

  391. Joe Wong says:
    @Greg the American

    You are an engineer? It seems you make decision based on ideology and bigotry instead of data and logic, with engineers like you no wonder manufacturing in the USA going down the tube. Perhaps you need to pray to Milton Friedman before fixing engineer screwups.

  392. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    A typical Chinese imperialist idiot straight out of Commie brainwashing school.

    This is the Mughal Empire

    This is the Maurya Empire in the year 250 BC when China was a bunch of small states.

    Chinese commie imperialist wants to break up great Bharatvarsha, keep dreaming.

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