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Exodus Redux: Jewish Identity and the Shaping of History

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The Crossing of the Red Sea.  Credit: Wikimedia Commons
The Crossing of the Red Sea. Credit: Wikimedia Commons

“Under the pretext of recording fables and current reports about the Jews, he [Manetho] took the liberty of introducing some incredible tales, wishing to represent us as…condemned to banishment from Egypt.”
Flavius Josephus, Against Apion

I’ve been intrigued by the story of the Israelite Exodus from Egypt for more than a decade. More than any of its close rivals, including the tale of Haman in the Book of Esther, the Exodus looms large as an early and extremely influential psychological landmark in the lachrymose and highly dubious pseudo-history of the Jewish people. Most obviously, the putative liberation from Egypt is commemorated by Judaism every year, in the form of the Pesach, or Passover festival. Indeed, this festival is one of the most important features of the Jewish religious calendar. Historian Paul Johnson remarks that Exodus “became an overwhelming memory” and “gradually replaced the creation itself as the central, determining event in Jewish history.”[1]

Exodus has a power that exists independently from the trappings of religious myth, acting through the centuries as a defining narrative of victimhood, group vindication, and self-validation. Jews living under the Tsar produced endless Yiddish plays and satires containing barely concealed allusions to the Tsar as the latest incarnation of Pharaoh.[2] Exodus is a foundation upon which Jewish identity, as well as Jewish religiosity, is built, and for this reason it has greatly preoccupied even the most atheistic of Jews, Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud among them. Moses, as a subconscious archetype, squats in the shadows of the Jewish psyche.

The early reception of Exodus by non-Jews also plays an important role in the Jewish worldview, in the sense that the “virus” of “anti-Semitism” is said to have originated in response to it. In this regard, there is an almost universal consensus among Jewish intellectuals that the earliest origins of “anti-Semitism” can be traced to the writings of an Egyptian priest allegedly offended by the account of the Israelite escape from Pharaoh. The theory relates specifically to a history of Egypt, the Aegyptiaca, written by an Egyptian priest named Manetho around the third century BC. Although the Aegyptiaca is lost to us, we are able to piece together much of its contents based on subsequent rebuttals by later Jewish writers such as Flavius Josephus, and also references to the text by several Greek and Greek-Egyptian intellectuals.

In summary, Manetho reported that centuries earlier a foreign population had entered Egypt’s eastern border via “infiltration of the Delta.” This foreign population subsequently rose in power within Egypt, becoming a burden and a pestilence to the natives. At some point, the foreign population developed a serious disease of the skin, and the Egyptians were finally motivated to expel the invaders, who later relocated to Jerusalem.

Manetho’s narrative certainly provoked some of the earliest examples of Jewish apologia. His account filtered through the ages and was taken up by the Hellenized Egyptian Apion the Alexandrian (30–20 BC – c. AD 45–48), in turn provoking a polemical text by Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (AD 37 – c. AD 100) titled simply Against Apion. In this text, Josephus remarked dismissively that “Under the pretext of recording fables and current reports about the Jews, he [Manetho] took the liberty of introducing some incredible tales, wishing to represent us as…condemned to banishment from Egypt.” It is interesting that Josephus was most concerned with rejecting the accusation that the Jews had a skin affliction, and was quite prepared to accept that Egyptian hostility was based on “the original grievance of the domination of our [Jewish] ancestors over their country.”

Today, historians are almost unanimous that Manetho was a malicious originator of anti-Jewish libels. Paul Johnson’s philo-Semitic A History of the Jews is a good example in this respect, though his treatment of ancient Jewish history is full of contradictions. For example, Johnson acknowledges that proto-Jewish populations were highly problematic for Egyptian authorities. Referencing the Amarna letters (dated to 1389–1358 BC), Johnson concedes that ancient Egyptian accounts referred to a Hebrew called Labaya or Lion Man who “caused great difficulties for the Egyptian authorities and their allies…[H]e was hard to control, a nuisance. He eventually met a violent death in the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaten.”[3]

Johnson further adds that only part of the Hebrew nation ever lived in Egypt, “a fifth column within the land” that played a crucial part in the broader geo-political strategies of the group.[4] Even setting aside the supernatural elements inherent in the Exodus tale, Johnson also appears to concede the unlikelihood of a Jewish-instigated departure since it would represent “a successful revolt and escape of a slave-people, the only one recorded in antiquity.”[5] Despite these acknowledgements, Johnson describes Manetho’s account of the expulsion of proto-Jewish infiltrators out of Egypt and into Jerusalem as a “fundamental matrix of anti-Semitism, the Ur-libel.”[6]

Jewish academic activist Robert Wistrich, now deceased, described Manetho as “malevolent” and “one of the first anti-Semitic polemicists of Antiquity.”[7] Kenneth Roseman argues that Manetho “disseminated virulently anti-Semitic propaganda.”[8] Ernest Abel called the Egyptian priest “the father of anti-Semitic literature.”[9] A special 1985 edition of Jewish Social Studies labelled Manetho “the first literary exponent of the anti-Jewish trend in Graeco-Roman Egypt and as the man who was instrumental in creating, or at least in popularizing, some of the oft-recurring anti-Semitic motifs.”[10]

In order to explain why Manetho may have constructed his “Ur-libel,’ Wistrich referred to a wider atmosphere in Alexandria in which Jews were in “socio-political competition with the Hellenized Egyptians.”[11] In the midst of this competition, Jews had come to be seen as exclusivist, unpatriotic, possessing dual loyalties, and possessing a “position of privilege, wealth, and power.”[12]

These accusations were given their most enduring articulation by leading intellectuals of the day, including Apion, Lysimachus, and Chaeroman, who acted as one of Nero’s instructors.[13] Antipathy towards Jews was so rife that even after the conquest of Judea, both Titus and Vespasian would refuse to adopt the honorary title “Judaicus.”

Manetho was thus, by modern academic consensus, merely the first to register the first grumblings of a jealous, intolerant non-Jewish civilization.

While non-Jewish grievances during this period are viewed by academic gatekeepers with great scepticism and alarm, Jewish self-aggrandizement from the same era is accepted without contest. Just as Manetho is said to have borrowed from Exodus for his Aegyptiaca, so every Hellenistic writer was alleged to have merely grafted ideas from an intellectually superior Judaism. On the contrary, in my own summation, Jews didn’t interact with Greek culture in Alexandria in any manner other than the co-option of its achievements.

This is of course the timeless phenomenon of Jewish cultural chauvinism, built on the re-writing of history. Academic activist Simon Schama writes that, in Alexandria, many Jewish writers and philosophers argued that Judaism “was the ancient root and Hellenism the young tree. Zeus was just a paganized version of the Almighty YHWH, and Moses was the ultimate moral legislator from whom all ethical law-giving had originally sprung. The Jewish Aristobulus of Paneas, writing in the mid-second century BC, wanted his readers to believe that Plato had painstakingly studied the Torah and that Pythagoras owed his theorem to ancient Jewish learning.”[14] This is the ancient root of the familiar drive to perpetuate the idea of “Jewish genius,” a theme now well-documented here at TOO (e.g., my “Pariah to Messiah: The Engineered Apotheosis of Baruch Spinoza” for a discussion of how Jewish intellectuals have rewritten the history of the Enlightenment to be the result of Jewish influence).

Although the narratives coterminous with the Exodus fable remain bloated and inert within the academic corpus, I wish to draw the attention of readers to a quite remarkable book published in 2006. Largely ignored by the gatekeepers of academia, Russell Gmirkin’s Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuchrepresents nothing less than a multi-front assault on both the Jewish interpretation of Manetho and the account of Exodus itself. Gmirkin’s study offers compelling evidence that Manetho did not react to Exodus, but rather that Exodus was written by Jewish intellectuals in Alexandria in reaction to Manetho, whose account was both older and more accurate. Or, as the author puts it, rather than Manetho attacking the Jews, “the borrowing and polemics took place in the opposite direction; the Penateuch polemicized against the Egyptian expulsion stories in Manetho.”[15] The implication of Gmirkin’s thesis is that, by writing Exodus, a text given later cultural protection and greater credence and authority by the spread of Christianity, Jews essentially captured history, re-writing it in a manner that salved Jewish pride.

Although what we understand as the Jewish group evolutionary strategy, and the cultural codes underpinning it, was certainly extant prior to the third century BC, Gmirkin argues that the “Hebrew Pentateuch was composed in its entirety about 273 BC by 72 Jewish scholars at Alexandria.”[16] Combining archaeological discoveries with meticulous textual analysis, Gmirkin demonstrates a heavy literary dependence of Genesis on Berossus’s Babyloniaca (278 BC) and Exodus on Manetho’s Aegyptiaca (ca. 285–280 BC), as well as a general reliance of Exodus on literary sources available at Alexandria’s Great Library. Contrary to allegations that Manetho engaged in polemics against the Jews as a response to Exodus, Gmirkin points out that his narrative does not mention the Jews by name, referring instead to a tribe of mixed ethnic origin known as the Hyksos (Egyptian for ‘rulers of foreign countries’). Furthermore, Manetho’s account “displays no awareness of the biblical account,” and “can be demonstrated to have drawn exclusively on native Egyptian sources.”[17]

Substantial elements of Exodus appear to have been plagiarized or corrupted from the Aegyptiaca. Gmirkin writes that:

The Exodus story, meanwhile, shows considerable knowledge of Manetho’s accounts regarding Hyksos and expelled Egyptians, showing systematic agreement with Manetho in all details favorable or neutral to the Jews but containing polemics against precisely those points in Manetho that reflected unfavorably on the Jews.[18]

Gmirkin highlights crucial facts which bring one to wonder just how the “Manetho as anti-Semite” myth came to dominate for so long, even taking into consideration that the march of Christianity protected Exodus from criticism for centuries. Most striking is the fact that “Manetho predated the Septuagint, the first Greek translation of Jewish writings. This chronological consideration alone excludes possible influence of the Jewish Exodus story on Manetho’s account of the Hyksos.”[19] Explicit knowledge of Jews in Manetho is “really quite limited.”[20] The real linkage between the Jews of Alexandria and Manetho’s account appears to have been a number of now obscure “Jewish traditions equating the Hyksos with the Jews.”[21]

Expressed more simply, Jews were offended indirectly by Manetho because he presented a negative portrayal of the Hyksos, whom Jews had, by the third century BC, come to regard in some respects as quasi-ancestral.

While Manetho’s account “had nothing to do with the Jews and was not dependent on the Pentateuchal tradition,” it did indeed advance a negative account of the Hyksos in Egypt.[22] Utilizing ancient king lists, the life of the last Pharaoh Nectanebo II and the older Aegyptiaca of Hecataeus of Abdera, Manetho described the Hyksos as “invaders of obscure race” who had brought misfortune and plagues in their wake following their infiltration of the Delta. [23] Modern archaeology has been able to determine that the Hyksos were a hybrid people combining West Semitic (Canaanite), Indo-Aryan, and West Asiatic lineages. Regardless of whether the Jews of Alexandria had significant genetic links to the Hyksos, we do know that the latter were expelled from Egypt twice and later settled “in Jerusalem and geographical Judea.”[24] Perhaps even more important is the fact that for over two thousand years Jews have taken Manetho’s account to be a direct insult, evidence, if nothing else, of their own belief in some form of connection to the Hyksos.

In relation to Manetho, the composers of Exodus employed “a systematic, consistent, predictable pattern in the points of similarity and violent contradiction.”[25] Both accounts feature Jews/Hyksos as foreigners in Egypt who are in some fashion compelled to leave by authorities or circumstances. Both accounts locate the action at the eastern border of Egypt. Both reference the demographic growth and swelling influence of foreigners in Egypt, as well as the contemporaneous presence of plagues. Gmirkin explains these similarities by pointing out that “the authors of the Jewish Exodus story chose their battles carefully, accepting the basic framework of Manetho’s account, accepting whatever details were deemed harmless, but rising to the defense of the Jews on every point of honor.”[26] Generally speaking, “the Pentateuch accepted as much of Manetho’s account as possible, due to the authority and reputation of Manetho.”[27] Where the Jewish writers of the biblical account needed to flesh out their version with references to Egyptian history, they appear to have repeated errors already present in Manetho, specifically in relation to the latter’s misreading of sections of the ancient king lists and chronicles.[28]

Although successive generations of Jewish intellectuals have taken issue with “anti-Semitic” ancient Egyptian claims that the foreigners suffered some form of skin affliction, and were in part exiled because of it, Exodus and other books in the Pentateuch display obvious attempts to parry such inferences. In Exodus (4:6–7) Moses is able to turn his hand leprous and heal it at will as a magical sign to Pharaoh. In Numbers (12:10) there is the strange story of Miriam’s brief leprosy, imposed by the Hebrew god as a punishment for rebellion. Both Leviticus and Numbers contain many prominent laws dealing with leprosy. Most damning of all is perhaps Deuteronomy (28:60), in which the Hebrew god warns the Jews that if they ever apostatized he would “bring on them again the diseases of Egypt.” There is thus clear evidence that the composers of Exodus and the Pentateuch adopted or at least acknowledged earlier accounts of the Hyksos in Egypt in which that foreign tribe had suffered some form of skin affliction or disease during the sojourn.

One might ask what relevance such ancient history has to the present. By way of answer I refer to the remarks made at the outset of this essay. Exodus remains a pivotal text in the Jewish mental landscape, shaping ideas about identity, victimhood, and validation. Its early reception has also come to represent, in the Jewish mind, the origins of “anti-Semitism” and the plagiarism of a putative Jewish genius. Because of the influence of Christianity in retaining and reinforcing the Pentateuch, and even extending it somewhat into the Western psyche, the story of the Exodus has been undeservedly preserved under a kind of cultural permafrost. We have for the most part lost touch with the fact that it was at one point in time merely one tribal repudiation of an overwhelming consensus. Historian Gohei Hata has argued that by the time of Josephus at least seven major Greek or Greek-Egyptian writers and intellectuals had published accounts asserting that Jews had some distant connection to Egypt, that they had been banished, that they had suffered from an affliction of the skin, and that Moses himself was an unstable Egyptian apostate.[29]

While our people may recall none of these chroniclers, they are extremely familiar with the tales of oppressed Jews fed to them by their churches, and by a Hollywood that continues to produce both adult and children’s movies concerning a “heroic” Moses stripped of the murderous, psychopathic qualities that drench the pages of the Pentateuch. Imagine if they were instead confronted with the fact that the tale of Moses familiar to them is even more distant to reality than they could imagine, concealing a much more sinister history in Egypt, and revealing instead the psychotic and fevered imaginings of a cabal of Alexandrian rabbis.

Even if Moses never existed other than as a kind of Golem squatting in the psychological recesses of the intellectuals who conceived him, he still retains a kind of “reality.” And in this regard we might consider the comments of Christian Bale, the Welsh actor chosen to play Moses in the 2014 film Exodus: Gods and Kings. Asked about the character he had been asked to play, and his own research into the figure, Bale replied that Moses “was ‘likely schizophrenic’ and was one of the most ‘barbaric’ individuals he’d ever read about in his life.” He cited biblical passages that were not included as events in the film: The chapter in Numbers where Moses orders the slaughter of all Midianite prisoners of war, save the virgin girls; and the section of Exodus in which Moses punishes the Israelites for worshiping the golden calf by forcing them to drink a scalding liquid made of the ground-up idol before ordering the slaughter of 3,000 Hebrews for the transgression. Bale closed his remarks by adding that “if Moses were alive today, he would likely be tried for war crimes.”

Asked to choose between Exodus and Manetho we might cast our minds back over the more than two millennia of history since both entered the Western canon. Has the exodus or the expulsion featured more prominently in the history of the Jews? Historiography has not been kind to the Egyptian priest, but history finds him vindicated.

References

[1] P. Johnson, A History of the Jews (London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1987), p.26.

[2] K. Frieden, Classic Yiddish Fiction: Abramovitsh, Sholem Aleichem, and Peretz (State University of New York Press, 1995), p.77.

[3] P. Johnson, A History of the Jews (London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1987), pp.22-3.

[4] Ibid, p.23.

[5] Ibid, p.26.

[6] Ibid, p.29.

[7] R. Wistrich, Antisemitism: The Longest Hatred, (London: Thames Methuen, 1991), p.5.

[8] K Roseman, Of Tribes and Tribulations (Oregon: Wipf & Stock, 2014), p.82.

[9] E. Abel, The Roots of Anti-Semitism (Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1974), p.49.

[10] Jewish Social Studies, Volume 47 (Winter 1985), p.2.

[11] R. Wistrich, Antisemitism: The Longest Hatred, (London: Thames Methuen, 1991), p.6.

[12] Ibid, p.5.

[13] Ibid.

[14] S. Schama, The Story of the Jews: Finding the Words, 1000BCE-1492CE(Ecco, 2014), p.93.

[15] R. Gmirkin, Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch (New York, T & T Clark, 2006), pp.2-3.

[16] Ibid, p.1.

[17] Ibid, p.3.

[18] Ibid.

[19] Ibid, p.187.

[20] Ibid, p.210.

[21] Ibid.

[22] Ibid, p.188.

[23] Ibid, p.173.

[24] Ibid, p.187.

[25] Ibid, p.188.

[26] Ibid.

[27] Ibid.

[28] Ibid, p.211.

[29] G. Hata, ‘The Story of Moses Interpreted within the Context of anti-Semitism,’ in Josephus, Judaism, and Christianity (Brill, 1987), p.181.

(Reprinted from The Occidental Observer by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: History • Tags: Jews, Judaism, The Bible 
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181 Comments to "Exodus Redux: Jewish Identity and the Shaping of History"

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  1. Interesting refs to Paul Johnson.

    I read The Birth of the Modern, and enjoyed it tremendously.
    I then bought his History of the Jews, started it. He didn’t seem to go that easy on the ancient Hebrews, whom I seem to recall he didn’t shy from characterizing as a pretty violent little band.
    But I didn’t continue reading up to more recent eras
    Johnson is incredibly prolific and protean, in terms of the number and variety of subjects he takes on. And he is truly entertaining to read.
    Would love to read some more of his books, and may pick up the History of the Jews again (although I am, actually, just a bit tired of Jews).

    But the very wide net he casts does make me wonder how much of an expert he can really be in an arcane field such as early Egyptian etc. history . . .

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    He didn’t seem to go that easy on the ancient Hebrews, whom I seem to recall he didn’t shy from characterizing as a pretty violent little band.

    We should probably agree that every group caring about their own survival had to be “pretty violent” and act like a “band” back then.
    We could also agree, or at least I hope so, willing to survive wasn’t a crime against humanity.

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  3. Pharaoh is a symbol of resistance to G_d. Jewish history has many stories about resistance and punishment. Tsars and others will be more modern pharaohs, as resistance needs an object to make the story continue.

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  4. I have assumed for years that the OT melds to gather two foundation myths, one being about Abraham coming from Mesopotamia, one about Moses coming from Egypt. I gather that both are archaeologically invisible i.e. there’s no good reason to believe a word of them.

    One current idea is that the Hebrews were just a bunch of Canaanites who adopted a religious cult to distinguish themselves from the other Canaanites. Their cult involved dietary restrictions and a pseudo-history. Opinions seem to differ about when they adopted monotheism; either shortly before, or during, the exile to Babylon seem to be the favoured estimates.

    It had never occurred to me that the Exodus yarn could have been concocted as late as the third century BC. Can that be true? Do none of the OT books suspected of being written before then refer or allude to the Exodus?

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  5. Much more plausible is that they originated from SW Arabia where the farao story makes more sense and the names coincide. They then came to Canaan and started the mass murder ordered by their YHWH so that that the land was only theirs.

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  6. Johnson’s point, right or wrong, was that the Israelite band was more violent.
    Perhaps they just made the mistake of writing down what they were up to and saying that they had a God who told them it was A-OK.

    Though whom He talked to would be a question. I don’t think the little band had rabbis yet.

  7. Why did they have to originate anywhere else but Canaan?

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  8. Do none of the OT books suspected of being written before then refer or allude to the Exodus?

    Jeremiah does.

    Interestingly, several passages in Jeremiah impeach Deuteronomy and Leviticus as regard the sacrifices and rituals of the temple as does the finding of the “true text” during the reforms of Josiah.

    7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

  9. Moses and the Israelites aren’t nice in the the story of Jericho told in Joshua 6:1-27, summarized at Wiki:

    “Moses instructed them to seize the [promised] land by conquest, and placed them under the command of Joshua. Joshua sent spies to Jericho, the first city of Canaan to be taken, and discovered that the land was in fear of Israel and their God. The Israelites marched around the walls once every day for seven days with the priests and the Ark of the Covenant. On the seventh day they marched seven times around the walls, then the priests blew their ram’s horns, the Israelites raised a great shout, and the walls of the city fell. Following God’s law of herem the Israelites took no slaves or plunder but slaughtered every man, woman and child in Jericho.”

    This is a difficult bedtime story to explain God’s law to children, and adults, especially Arabs. I had to look up herem:

    Herem or cherem (Hebrew: חרם, ḥērem), as used in the Tanakh, means ‘devote’ or ‘destroy’. It is also referred to as the ban. The term has been explained in different ways by scholars. It has been defined as “a mode of secluding, and rendering harmless, anything imperilling the religious life of the nation,” or “the total destruction of the enemy and his goods at the conclusion of a campaign,” or “uncompromising consecration of property and dedication of the property to God without possibility of recall or redemption.

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  10. This is an interesting read from another perspective. I had to read it twice.

    http://www.graal.co.uk/grailkings.php

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  11. A good clue is that the much earlier story of Sargon of Akkad is “repeated” and claimed to be that of Moses just as the story of Noah appears to have been appropriated from the earlier Mesopotamian texts on the flood. This weaving of a false narrative taken from multiple and often true but disparate events almost certainly occurred after the Babylonian captivity and makes it much more recent than is generally thought.

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  12. The Druids weren’t the indigenii of their place….

  13. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri

    Dear Mr Joyce.before you wander off with your crackpot theories perhaps you should read the link I provided.

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  14. Interesting. The Hebrews were NOT monotheists at the time, and even that concept seems to have been stolen from Akhenaten, whose followers simply disappeared from the narrative, but may have escaped beyond the Nile delta along with the Hyksos (Labaya points to the timeline)

    YHWH also was alleged to have been borrowed from the idol of a ‘city’ (YHW) that the Hebrews destroyed totally in their so-called Exodus. The characteristics assigned to the new deity is a reflection of their own behaviour during this period.

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  15. Imagine a world without Jews!

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  16. Unlike many of you, I stand in awe of a people who are only capable of good; or at least whose occasional resort to unpleasant tactics is always forced upon them by their enemies; who can convince the masses that despite being the wealthiest and most privileged among us, they are forever our victims; whose critics are forever motivated by an eternal, unreasoning race-hatred, always and everywhere unrelated to anything these people might have done; and who can bring their host societies to the point of self-destruction without any complaints save those few whom the same societies happily marginalize on command.

    Unlike many of you, I stand in awe of such a people. Among their many talents is an unerring intuition as to their host societies’ weaknesses, such as the altruism and sense of fair play which characterized the American population of earlier times. Among their talents is to gain such a stranglehold upon the production of ‘truth’ that they not only get others to do their bidding, they get them to do it with an unholy vengeance. I stand in awe of such a people. Well, awe is one word for it.

    • Agree: utu
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  17. “Exodus 12
    35And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: 36And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.”

    The Jews. Ripping people off from the beginning. Spoiled meaning plundered in newer vernacular.

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  18. So Jews have always been self righteous, liars and parasites.

    No offence intended but if your people keep getting expelled or laid to hate, then it is most likely your peoples own behaviour that are to blame.

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  19. My old man used to tell me that if one or two people didn’t like you, maybe they had a problem. One the other hand, if everyone doesn’t like you, it’s probably not everyone that has the problem.

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  20. Wikepedia is about as reliable as the New York Times, Washington Post, The Nation, The New Republic, Time, and the rest of the quality press.

  21. Slaughter of all the prisoners except the virgin girls. Sounds like another middle eastern religious icon, Mohammed.

  22. Excellent article.

    Against Apion is worth a read and so is Josephus’

    Wars of the Jews.

    History repeats. Over and over again, and the main things are to see with your own eyes and question everything, especially “history” and “authority.”

  23. It doesn’t matter what Jews did back in ancient times, because as we’ve been informed repeatedly by many many comments here on this blog and elsewhere, today’s Jews are not descended from those Jews anyway. I think I have that right.

  24. Joshua is another chap who is probably mythical. Jericho’s walls came down at the wrong time for it to be anything to do with “Joshua”.

  25. Pharaoh is a symbol of resistance to G_d. Jewish history has many stories about resistance and punishment.

    A rational view on the Jew god thing.

    What god image, or religion, or philosophy people hold is relevant to their lives and their neighbors lives. All gods, religions, and philosophies, and the cultures that they produce, are NOT equal. Different religious cultures produce different outcomes. None perfect, but some better than others.

    I respect people who believe in God – I am one of them.

    With that said, god is an idea, god is an image within our psyche. There is no proof one way or the other if there is an actual god of the universe. “God” is a matter of faith or belief.

    The image of god that the Jews hold is preposterous, it is farcical – the idea that their “god of the whole universe” favors them over all of humanity is ridicules. So be it – if they want to think that absurdity – that is their problem. If they wish NOT to join the rest of humanity – that is their problem.

    The rub is that they want us to believe it too. They want us to go along with their idiot narrow view of the god of the universe. They actually condemn us, if we do not. They want us to allow them to steal Palestine because their god sanctions it. They want us to ignore their destruction of the ME. Their god is not a nice guy, a fair minded guy, a just guy – is he!

    The image of the Christian god that we hold in our mind is different. Jesus brought use a new image of a hopeful kind god. With it, Jesus gave us a new idealistic mindset for living that advocates hope, love, fair mindedness, and forgiving. This new idealistic mindset has had a positive effect on humanity.

    The Jew image of god is clearly inferior to the Christian image of god.

    For the betterment of all – we Christians must assert our superior views.

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  26. One might ask what relevance such ancient history has to the present. By way of answer I refer to the remarks made at the outset of this essay. Exodus remains a pivotal text in the Jewish mental landscape, shaping ideas about identity, victimhood, and validation.

    And the key point in Exodus is that the God of the Jews kills the enemies of the Jews by drowning the Egyptian army in the Red Sea. He then promises the Jews a political kingdom, and gives them the power to kill the Canaanites in battle.

    Whereas in Christianity, “God is love,” in Judaism “God is death” — to the enemies of the Jews.

    Pretty frightening, really.

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  27. Jewish academic activist Robert Wistrich, now deceased, described Manetho as “malevolent” and “one of the first anti-Semitic polemicists of Antiquity.”[7] Kenneth Roseman argues that Manetho “disseminated virulently anti-Semitic propaganda.”[8]

    Setting aside for the moment that “Jews” are not and probably never have been monolithic, it’s striking to me that Josephus himself admits in many places that “Jews” were involved in conflicts with pretty much every population they came into contact with.

    It’s also amazing how he readily admits, in numerous places, how “Jews” were no strangers to fighting pretty barbariously amongst themselves as well. His accounts of how the Sicarii and other bands of Jewish robbers and plunderers and “innovators” victimized their own people more than once are illuminating, to say the least.

    Their own nasties were forever causing trouble to the good ones. If they were somehow a chosen “race,” aside form the fact that it was supposedly their own G-d who chose ‘em, I don’t see how they differed much from any other group except, perhaps in their self righteousness, narcissism and boundless self promotion.

  28. who can bring their host societies to the point of self-destruction without any complaints save those few whom the same societies happily marginalize on command.

    Well, awe is one word for it.

    where would they be without modern day kapos like John McCain?

    were it not for Hagee and his minions, where would the American amen corner for the slaughter of children in the holy land come from?

    were it not for the pugnaciously bovine..

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/R324vwAVXnM/hqdefault.jpg

    ..where would the demands come from that honorable men follow orders blindly?

    I guess the way I see it is that I’m not so much in awe at the vulture who come to dine, as at the craven venality of their victims to toss their children on Moloch’s pyre$

    we need to look in a mirror if we want to understand the real problem

  29. For anyone who’s curious about further debate and discussion in this area, I’d like to recommend two books that are quite helpful, readable and chock-full of references to some of the vast range of scholarship in this topic and related topics:

    Brad Kelle and Megan Bishop Moore, Biblical History and Israel’s Past: The Changing Study of the Bible and History
    reviews:

    http://www.jhsonline.org/reviews/reviews_new/review631.htm

    http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/11/13/jts.flt194

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09018328.2011.608547?journalCode=sold20

    Michael D. Coogan, ed., Oxford History of the Biblical World
    the relevant chapter on the Exodus is Carol Redmount, “Bitter Lives: Israel in and out of Egypt”

    https://books.google.com/books?id=4DVHJRFW3mYC&lpg=PA88&pg=PA88#v=onepage&q&f=false

    but even better is the following chapter on the “conquest” by Lawrence E Stager: “Forging an Identity: The Emergence of Ancient Israel”

    https://books.google.com/books?id=4DVHJRFW3mYC&lpg=PA129&pg=P129#v=onepage&q&f=false

    The ratio of interest (large) to evidence (small) is such that virtually every possible scenario has been chewed over by at least a few specialists…

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  30. In order to explain why Manetho may have constructed his “Ur-libel,’ Wistrich referred to a wider atmosphere in Alexandria in which Jews were in “socio-political competition with the Hellenized Egyptians.” In the midst of this competition, Jews had come to be seen as exclusivist, unpatriotic, possessing dual loyalties, and possessing a “position of privilege, wealth, and power.”

    Gee this describes 1930’s Germany and 2017 America (indeed all of the Western nations).

    Clearly free democracy is most susceptible to Jewish coercion, and how they use their privilege, wealth, and power.”

    How does this get fixed – Jews are incapable of righting their own ship and America does not have an all-powerful pharaoh – is a catastrophe and a Hitler coming our way?

  31. Thanks for this great introduction to Manetho, who I hadn’t heard of until now.

    The Hyksos – Jew connection is well known and seems to be a baseline narrative in Arab and Muslim cultures. It’s my understanding that it’s fairly well documented in the hieroglyphics of the Great Pyramids, as well.

    Anyway, another fantastic piece. Many thanks.

  32. 1. What to make of the fact (if google’s N-gram data is a “fact”) that “Judeo-” linked by hyphen to “-Christian” gained prominence only in 1933 (pay no mind to the auspicious date) https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=judeo-christian&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cjudeo%20-%20christian%3B%2Cc0

    2. Walter Grundmann led a movement that gained broad popular as well as scholarly and religious support, in Germany, to tease out the character of Jesus and the essence of Christianity as expressed by – and reflective of the values of the German people, from the Hebrew context. As I understand Grundmann’s project, he sought to sunder the relationship between the Hebrew god of the Old Testament and Jesus. (Thomas Jefferson undertook a similar project a century or so earlier http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffbsyl.html ).

    It’s very difficult to find information about Grundmann in USAian literature. Wikipedia savages Grundmann.

    Susannah Heschel, daughter of a rabbi and ardent zionist, has written about- and is relied upon as a kind of expert on- Grundmann’s movement on the strength of her vilification of Grundmann’s work in “The Aryan Jesus: Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany.”

    Heschel condemns Grundmann for an antisemite and a Nazee. It’s a profound insight into the Jewish and zionist project.
    It convinces me that the holocaust of Jewish people narrative is an alibi, a smokescreen, a coverup.

    The real holocaust was of the German people and the deliberate, planned, industrial, total destruction of the center of Christian Europe. (Thence to USA.)

    The crucified Christ has been replaced as the central icon of Western Civilization/Christianity, in holocaust cathedrals all over the world, by the image of gas-chambered Jews and the millions of Jewish holocaust survivors, miraculously risen from the dead.

    If the Catholic and Christian* churches in USA have any spine and character left at all, they will instruct their priests and preachers to disseminate Andrew Joyce’s essay throughout their congregations. Preach it from the pulpit.

    *many so-called evangelical Christian churches center their ‘faith’ and expectation of ‘rapture’ on (gratefully dead) Timothy LaHaye’s Left Behind series of extraordinary popular fiction.

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/july/tim-lahaye-dies-left-behind-coauthor-stroke.html

    More need we the Grundmann than the LaHaye.

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  33. “Egypt knew no Pharoahs nor Israelites” is the title of a book by Dr Ashraf Ezzat
    “Neither Egypt is the land of the Israelites’ Exodus nor Palestine their promised land”

    https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/4938/

    He covers a lot of the biblical myth on his blog:

    https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/

  34. Oh please, how hasbarish.

    see:
    Zionist Wikipedia Editing Course

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139189

    and:
    The Zionist attempt to control language.
    The Israel Project’s 2009 GLOBAL LANGUAGE DICTIONARY

    https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf

    and:
    The commander behind the pro-Israel student troops on U.S. college campuses

    http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page//.premium-1.709014

    and:
    Israel tech site paying “interns” to covertly plant stories in social media

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/israel-tech-site-paying-interns-covertly-plant-stories-social-media

    and:
    Israeli students to get $2,000 to spread state propaganda on Facebook

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-students-get-2000-spread-state-propaganda-facebook/quote

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  35. It convinces me that the holocaust of Jewish people narrative is an alibi, a smokescreen, a coverup.

    Call it what it is, a fraud.

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:

    http://codoh.com

    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    Why have supremacist Jews have been marketing the ’6,000,000′ lie since at least 1869?

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  36. So called ‘Antisemitism’ is simply a logical reaction to the lies, thievery, violence, destruction, and hate that is perpetrated and advocated by Jewish supremacists.

    Remember Israeli laws which ban all non-Jew immigration (Jews Only) into “that shitty little country” while those same supremacist Jews demand massive immigration into the US & Europe.

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  37. If the Catholic and Christian* churches in USA have any spine and character left at all

    good luck with that

    the only Christian leader with any integrity that I know of is that Bishop Williamson who was excommunicated, presumably for having doubts about some tenets of Holocaustianity

    when Christians are willing to countenance boy rape among the clergy and the promotion of homosexual lifestyles like “gay” “marriage” in Catholic Ireland- then it’s a lost cause. The rot has metastasized and spiritually they’re swirling into the abyss.

    Look to Russia if you want an ascendant Christianity.

  38. “Do none of the OT books suspected of being written before then refer or allude to the Exodus?”

    This is a very good question. Perhaps there are no other books in existence. The Septuagint might be the oldest version of OT which actually was written in Greek. Thus Hebrew versions of OT (Torah) are in fact derivative of the Greek version.

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  39. Is this part of or related to the thesis of Immanual Velikovsky, in “Ages in Chaos”?

    That basically in the Bible there are “two of everything” because of doubling effects caused by taking bits from multiple sources?

  40. ” They want us to allow them to steal Palestine because their god sanctions it.”

    It is really too much!
    Especially when one considers that the Founding Zionist Fathers very likely were secular Jews who didn’t even believe in their silly G-d but used the idea to get a country on the cheap that they could run. Have their own sandbox.

    Their argument is the inverse of “the dog ate my homework.”
    Namely: “The d-g *did* my homework!”

    I hope everyone here takes the time to read Tom Suarez’s speech, linked somewhere above (do a search of the thread for “Suarez”). It’s a real eye-opener, even for died-in-the-wool Zionism skeptics.

  41. That’s fascinating, but the Wikipedia article doesn’t mention anything about the Pentateuch…in fact this passage:

    “The papyri suggest that, “Even in exile and beyond, the veneration of a female deity endured.”[10] The texts were written by a group of Jews living at Elephantine near the Nubian border, whose religion has been described as “nearly identical to Iron Age II Judahite religion”.[11] The papyri describe the Jews as worshiping Anat-Yahu (or AnatYahu). Anat-Yahu is described as either the wife[12] (or paredra, sacred consort)[13] of Yahweh or as a hypostatized aspect of Yahweh.”

    seems to indicate that the beliefs of the Jewish community at Elephantine were pretty archaic.
    (for the record, it seems unlikely to me that the Pentateuch could have been created in the way assumed by Gmirkin and Joyce in the article above is probably motivated by his anti-Jewish agenda).

  42. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    So those nasty Zionist Wikipedia editors planted a story about the Elephantine papyri for what reason, exactly? How does this justify a Jewish state?

  43. Thank you for those book recommendations, looks interesting.

  44. I always was wondering what the whole Exodus was about. Did Egyptians chase Israelites because they wanted them as slaves or they just merely wanted to recover the loot the Israelites took with them?

  45. Everyone should read as much Paul Johnson as possible. But we are all strapped for time. As such, I would highly recommend that you start with Modern Times, The Birth of the Modern, and Intellectuals, in that order. IMHO.

    And I agree, Johnson didn’t go that easy on ancient Hebrews. He was very even handed in his treatment, thereby annoying, (I’m sure) both the philo and anti camps.

  46. The Holocaust is simply the Exodus, new and improved …a new myth for the modern era.

  47. You forgot to do case-insensitive search. The trend is different when you do that, with references first appearing after the Civil War.

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=judeo-christian&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CJudeo%20-%20Christian%3B%2Cc0

  48. “The Jewish Aristobulus of Paneas, writing in the mid-second century BC, wanted his readers to believe that Plato had painstakingly studied the Torah and that Pythagoras owed his theorem to ancient Jewish learning.”

    I am surprised that Jews did care about Greek achievements and wanted to appropriate them or diminish them already in the mid-second century BC. After all for the next 2000 years until the 19 century emancipation of Jews in Europe, Jews did not participate in the cultural and scientific endeavors of the West that originated in Athens. They did not really produce any science including any mathematics, any art, or music or literature prior to 1800. So their objective was just to change the narrative to diminish the achievements of Greeks that they certainly must have recognized and probably were envious of them. Was the attempt to change the narrative and revise the history only for the internal consumption? A similar attempt was made by African American scholars in the 20 century which was directed only for consumption in Black community to lift their sense of self-worth and amplify their separateness from the world at large preventing further assimilation.

  49. I don’t think Moses squats in the shadows. Is this a deliberate allusion to Shakespeare?

    It does not sound or feel right.

  50. Immediately after winning the Rep. nomination in 2008, McCain flew to London for a fund-raiser hosted by the Rothschilds. Doubtless this was in gratitude for services rendered by McCain’s father who controlled the preparation and contents of the hastily conducted investigation report of the attack on the USS Liberty. Israel was “absolved” of any intent.

  51. When about 550 years ago Rome (Istanbul) was conquered by Apostolic Christian Orda, much of the upper class of Rome moved to Italy. Later this event was called Exodus of Jews from Egypt. Upper class of Rome was composed of different ethnic groups, but their common language was Latin. That is how fast development of Italy started. Many of those people later were united in a new created religion Judaism. They also created alternative Italian Rome and called it The First Rome. Before that, Italian town, which now called Rome, was quite a modest town around former military base Vatican.

  52. For the liars who deny the Wikipedia link.note the reference to the pass over joyce.idiot

    http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/westsem/passover.html

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/3259988?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

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  53. I know this post will fall on deaf ears, but in any case any curious person of good will stumbles on this thread by chance:

    The Exodus story is revered by Christians as well. The crossing of the Red Sea is the main OT reading at the most important Mass of the year, the Easter Vigil – and always has been, even long before Vatican II. (That is for Catholics – but Protestants love the story even more.)

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  54. ok.

    Vatican City
    The Arctic Tundra, anywhere from Siberia to the Yukon
    Feudal Japan
    Yuan Dynasty China
    Aztec Mesoamerica
    Modern Saudi Arabia
    Pre-Latin, post-neolithic, Celtic, British Isles
    Pre-colonized Hawaii
    Pre-19th century Congo

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  55. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    Wally, you seem to be arguing that the Nazis weren’t so bad. I maintain that, regardless of what crimes against minorities they committed, the Nazis would have been lousy to live under. Are you able to list any Nazi policies with which you disagree?

  56. I had missed that, sorry, you’re right.

  57. 90% of today’s American young Jewish people think that Moses is just another tribal fable. There have been a number of books written about why these are just tribal fables. It is apparently the Christians who take a fable to be a fact when they were like all primitive people, fables.

  58. I’m assuming you read the review twice, not the book. Have you looked at the reviews of this book at Amazon? (Always a good place to check, incidentally.) Taking you to Sumer may be reasonable, but once he gets there does Gardner claim [that humans were cloned by Sumerian Gods/aliens] ?

    review:
    “We are the creation of a reptilian master race, the dragons of Lucifer. …. Humanity was simply a genetic experiment by an intellectually superior species. …. The Grail Kings are serpent/human hybrids who are our rightful rulers and teachers. Theirs is the Holy bloodline. Jesus was one of them. Methinks the author also believes the same about himself.

    “In reality, this book is an apology for a type of satanism. It is choc-a-bloc with convoluted half truths which might bedazzle readers who are cynical of religious orthodoxy.”

    OK.

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  59. LoL. I’m sure those places would have improved immediately with the introduction of jews– and whatever White nations infested by jews have achieved is owing to said infestation. Verily you are a light unto the goyim.

  60. You are all asking good questions.

    I read this article earlier (other site). I would agree that the version recorded by Greeks and probably Hellenised Jews was the best version of the early parts, as you, utu, suggest.

    Two creation tales, too.

    A few of the better Psalms are analogous with Egyptian writings from the time of Akhenaton or Amenhotep.

    The article is very informative, I do not recall hearing of Manetho before, that is interesting.

    Shame the original is no longer extant, and the piecing together is likely shakier than piecing the canon of Marcion together from Church fathers (although the latter is quite reliable on the gospel, and three or four of the epistles, since they went into such great detail to criticise them).

    As an aside, I am a Christian, but I find the reconstructed Marcionite epistles more beautiful than the NT versions, can’t prove it, but I believe they are a purer form, simply because they have a less interrupted flow, and a greater purity. The now-canonical versions have more logical (or logostical) problems.

    Very interesting article, Mr. Joyce, read the three parts about Spinoza, within the last 48 hrs, never could see his great contributions to philosophy, still can’t, but you give a great account of how and why they are so overstated, and of the background.

    Will read this article again after work.

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  61. Marcion promoted a version of Christianity which was indeed more ‘pure’ and ‘beautiful’–because it was more accurate. More accurate in the sense that it represented the teachings of Jesus Christ in their essence, particularly as transmitted through the Sermon on the Mount, and especially as they renounced the primitive, bloodthirsty, and hate-mongering “Old Testament” Torah/Tanakh/Bible.

    It’s been said many times that the “Judeo-Christian” Bible is a ‘House Divided Against Itself’. Taken together, the two ‘testaments’ describe two antithetical Gods and promote two antithetical theologies.

    Early Christian Councils, such as that of Nicaea and of Constantinople, were inevitably political as much as religious, with predictable results. It would seem that the revolutionary teachings of Jesus Christ were acceptable only within limits.

    Incidentally, despite the foregoing, I am not a religious man.

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  62. Can you please repeat that story about how your parents taught you to respect Jews?

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  63. I know this post will fall on deaf ears, but in any case any curious person of good will stumbles on this thread by chance:

    The Exodus story is revered by Christians as well. The crossing of the Red Sea is the main OT reading at the most important Mass of the year, the Easter Vigil – and always has been, even long before Vatican II. (That is for Catholics – but Protestants love the story even more.)

    Well, you have to account for the possibility that the established Christian churches got it totally wrong. Properly understood, Christianity is a complete rejection of Judaism. Judaism is about having God kill the enemies of the Jews and then giving them a special political territory because they are his “Chosen People” and thus superior to others.

    Christianity rejects all of those beliefs. Caiaphas the Jewish priest testified in court that Jesus was guilty of blasphemy and should be put to death for it. (No different than what ISIS does today, really).

    Caiaphas and the Pharisees were right — Jesus was a blasphemer. He denied that the Jews were better than anyone else. He said that Heaven, not Israel, was the Promised Land, and that even the Gentiles could be saved. He told the Jews to love their enemies, contradicting the Pharisees, who believed that God would send a Jewish king to kill the Romans and restore Israel. That’s why they had him tortured to death.

    Martin Luther, who actually took Christianity seriously and was disgusted with popes having mistresses and bastard children, looked at what the Talmudic scholars thought of Gentiles and declared that Jews were evil and that their synagogues should be burned to the ground.

    http://www.ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/primary-texts-from-the-history-of-the-relationship/273-luther-1543

    Ironically, that was rather un-Christian thing for him to say, but at least he did recognize the fundamental and profound incompatibility between Judaism and Christianity.

    The only reason that the Old Testament exists in the Christian Bible is to demonstrate the errors of the Jews.

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  64. The four canonical gospels were “chosen” as the official, authentic gospels some centuries after the life and death of Christ. I believe it was at a time when the sect known as Christianity was separating itself from the rest of Judaism. I believe it was at about the time when the new Christian group encouraged members who were not born Jews, and circumcision was not required to become members of the Christian group. Obviously, the Christian group thought that the Messiah had come—his name was Jesus—and the mainstream Jews preferred to wait for a different, more “real” Messiah.

    This new sect and its acceptance of the uncircumcised as members and, basically, as Jews pissed off the mainstream Jews.

    Somewhere along the line there was a council of some kind and the current four gospels were chosen to be the main texts of the new sect called Christianity, which eventually spun itself off from Judaism. For sure the gospels that were chosen reflected choices as to what the new religion should basically be about and how, and how much, it should differ from the Judaism that had spawned it.

    There were quite a few other gospels, and they probably conveyed a different idea of what Christianity was—also different accounts of the life of Christ. I believe the Gospel of Marcian was one of these.

  65. “Martin Luther, who actually took Christianity seriously and was disgusted with popes having mistresses and bastard children”

    Perhaps he was more envious than disgusted. He married a nun.

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  66. “Ironically, that was rather un-Christian thing for him to say, but at least he did recognize the fundamental and profound incompatibility between Judaism and Christianity.”

    What is even more ironical is the possibility that he hoped that his “improved Christianity” with prominent position of Old Testament in it will attract Jewish converts. It did not happen. He felt betrayed by Jews. And perhaps he might have regrets for starting the greatest schism in Christianity that destroyed the unity of Europe. This may explain his vehement anti-Semitism in his later years.

    “Well, you have to account for the possibility that the established Christian churches got it totally wrong. Properly understood, Christianity is a complete rejection of Judaism. ”

    Lutheranism and Calvinism were steps that moved Christianity only closer to Judaism. In other words, Protestant revolution was a step back on the road to the true Christianity. You can find true Christianity somewhere in Greek or Russian Orthodox Churches or even in Catholicism than anywhere in Protestantism.

  67. Shouldn’t you be pounding your head against a stone wall instead of boring this forum with your inanities?

  68. It is interesting that long after the alleged incidents in Exodus, conventionally dated to around 1,300 BC, long after the warnings against polytheism, long after the Habiru slaughtered countless tribes in the name of monotheism under their bloodthirsty god, Yahweh, the Jews in Elephantine 800 years later maintained that he had a consort, a female half. This must count as some kind of joke on pious Christians, who have always revered the Jews as the founders of monotheism.

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  69. I am a Catholic myself, but have found it hard to credit that much of Exodus represents an accurate chronological rendering of facts. Rather it seems to be a rewriting of old sources, a melding into a founding myth for the Jews. Among other things, the events in Exodus seem to based on around real cataclysms such as earthquakes around the Mediterranean, on which the Hebrews overlaid their claim to choseness, since they escaped it.

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  70. The only reason that the Old Testament exists in the Christian Bible is to demonstrate the errors of the Jews.

    Not quite, it is a source of legitimacy for the Christian faith. But one has to read it as the Catholic Church reads it: listen only to the good parts.

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  71. I recommended the book, I still do. The author is an accomplished scientist who is attempting to provide some historical perspectives to matters of the esoteric and what we might know as the occult or the craft. He covers satan in as much as what the original meaning was… that of an opposer or prosecutor. Anyway, if not for you… ok.

  72. Perhaps they just made the mistake of writing down

    A close and contrarian reading of Esther suggests to me that what is most important about the story is that the Persians used writing to capture the spoken word, while the Yehud did not; Mordechai and Esther learned to write from the Persians, and from the Persians Yehud learned the power of the word: Haman’s (allegedly) written directives had the power to produce action and to create reality.

    In classical Catholic teaching, we learned that “Who sins not with his tongue sins not at all.” Learning to use words, to speak and to write, is one thing. Using words honestly and truthfully is another level of the exercise of the human will.

    In “The Great Transformation,” Karen Armstrong points out one crucial distinction between the Persians and the Yehud/Jews, then and now: Armstrong wrote that the ancient Iranians (Aryans)

    “took the spoken word very seriously . . . Human beings and all the natural forces . . . had to submit to the sacred order held the universe together. . . . It made life possible, keeping everything in its proper place and defining what was true and correct.

    Human society also depended upon this sacred order. People had to make firm, binding agreements about grazing rights, the herding of cattle, marriage, and the exchange of goods. Translated into socials terms, [the gods of the sacred order] meant loyalty, truth, respect, the ideals embodied by Varuna, the guardian of order, and Mithra, his assistant. . . . The Aryans took the spoken word very seriously. Like all other phenomena, speech was a god . . . The Aryans did not make effigies of their gods. Instead, they found that the act of listening brought them close to the sacred. . . . A vow, once uttered, was eternally binding, and a lie was absolutely evil because it perverted the holy power inherent in the spoken word. The Aryans would never lose this passion for absolute truthfulness.

    In contrast, Mordechai and Esther could permit themselves to create a reality that allowed them to use words to bring about the slaughter thousands of innocent people, blame it on someone else, celebrate the fait accompli and teach their children to do the same.
    As well, in his discussion of Jews in Poland in the 19th and 20th centuries and of Jews in Israel today, Rabbi Henry Abramson observed that because the former felt themselves an oppressed minority subjected to oppressive legislation, they found ways to maneuver around the laws; that is, they developed the habit of dissembling or ignoring the “order” imposed in the “human society” in which they dwelt. Abramson said that these habits, ingrained over hundreds of years in the Polish diaspora, are still expressed in Israel in a disdain for compliance with the rules — the “sacred order.”
    Jewish rejection of the logos, “the word,” the rational ordering of nature and human society, is the central thesis of E Michael Jones’s “The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit: And Its Impact on World History.”

  73. Ivan

    That’s why the Jews are called The Chosen.they get to choose a bit of this and a bit of that and a bit on the side

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  74. ivan says earthquakes

    let us assume that a powerful cataclysm in the month february 2017 does happen and jerusalem is badly damaged,the old city destroyed,the wall and temple mount destroyed,would that be a founding myth

    i know one thing for sure that this earth escaped a strike by a asteroid in the last day or so.

    that was the first of 7 falling stars to come until april.the february the 19 is the next date.

    3 companions,7 falling stars,the earth shall open,an ancient river shall flow again

  75. Why claim they came from Canaan, when their text says they didn’t? I can understand why hasbarists would want to claim the Hebrews as being indigenous to Canaan, but the Holy Text specifically says the opposite, that they were recent arrivals, with no opposing tradition.

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  76. Can you please repeat that story about how your parents taught you to respect Jews?

    You men like the good rabbi teaches his flock how to respect others? Here’s a reminder in case you forgot.

    “Goyim [non-Jews] were born only to serve us.” Explaining why God allowed non-Jews long lives, he added: “Imagine that your donkey would die, you’d lose your income. [The donkey] is your servant. … That’s why he [the gentile] gets a long life, to work well for the Jew.”
    This summer, Yosef Elitzur and Yitzhak Shapira, who head an influential seminary in the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar, published The King’s Torah, a 230-page guide to how Jews should treat non-Jews.

    The two rabbis concluded that Jews were obligated to kill anyone who posed a danger, immediate or potential, to the Jewish people, and implied that all Palestinians were to be considered a threat. On these grounds, the pair justified killing Palestinian civilians and even their babies.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/12/10/israel-s-racist-rabbis/print

  77. I’m amazed that yours appears to be the only mention of the “Habiru” in a discussion like this. I’m way out of my area of expertise, but I think it would be of value if someone could elaborate on that subject, especially since Josephus himself admits that among the “Jews” there often arose powerful bands of thieves who committed breathtaking atrocities against their own people and apparently the Habiru were that.

    Not only does the word have an obvious cognate, but Josephus, who calls himself “by birth a Hebrew,” puts the blame for Titus’ defeat of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple not on the Romans, but on the Jewish robber-rebels, John of Gischala, Simon of Gerasa and the Zealots. I don’t know if he considered them Hebrews or Habiru, but it would be interesting to know.

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  78. “Martin Luther, who actually took Christianity seriously and was disgusted with popes having mistresses and bastard children”

    Perhaps he was more envious than disgusted. He married a nun.

    Wait, you are saying that getting married = having mistresses and bastard children?
    Weird. That Luther’s wife had been a nun has no bearing whatsoever.

    Many point to the institution of chastity of the priesthood as one of the worst features of Roman Catholicism, and one of the most important ones differentiating it from the Orthodox churches. And Judaism, by the way. RCism seems to mirror the weakest element in the Christian narrative, that a child could be born of a virgin. RCism says, or implies, that a man can be a father without the requirement of a woman. Both of these ideas are, obviously, nuts! Of course, the Age of Miracles/Hocus Pocus is long over now. Right . . . ?

    I think Christianity would be a much greater, and more effective—a more effective counter to, say, Islam, as a “universal” religion—if they had left out the virgin birth bit. But instead it was made the absolute center of the belief system—Jesus’s actual notions were kind of sidelined. Now we have the annual Christmas potlatch. What would Jesus do?

    Putting all of these fake “fathers” in close proximity to children also has not worked out all that well for a lot of the children. So, don’t knock Martin Luther on that score. In fact, he may have seen some goings-on for himself and reached his own conclusions. Sexual abuse of children did not start in the mid-20th C.

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  79. “Not quite, it is a source of legitimacy for the Christian faith. ”

    Yes, that is what I was taught (in comp. religion classes) of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity.
    The prophets foretold the coming of a Messiah, which the dictionary defines as ” the expected king and deliverer of the Jews.” Can’t recall what they had to saved/delivered from. Some captivity or other. But per Jesus I guess the Jews had to be saved from themselves. (At this point I very much doubt that anyone better than Jesus is going to come along—and are the Jews really even looking for him or her? What would they do if one did come along? Seems kind of like holding all options open all the time. Kind of like the borders of Israel. But I digress).

    But, yes, definitely foretold.
    The Christmas carol Lo How a Rose er Blooming makes the point:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Es_ist_ein_Ros_entsprungen

    In light of how current Jews don’t really seem to be looking for anyone, I can imagine that no one was seriously looking for a Messiah back in the year zero. And then this guy comes along with an unlikely story about a virgin mom, and a few Jews say: This is the One!
    Major disruption.
    You would have to expect pushback. Then it is a bummer when he gets crucified by the Romans. Because that really gets the Jesus cult going!! The First Martyr. Martyrdom seems to really work well for movement building. I wonder whether the success of this Martyrdom Maneuver didn’t get some of the other Jews thinking . . .

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  80. You do not know what you are talking about. The Christian position is that the Jews were correct for 2,000 years, or at least closer to correct than any other people, but unfortunately rejected Jesus when He came along with a fuller and more complete explanation of the truth. The great figures of OT Judaism are honored in every Christian church in the world and (despite the fact that Judaism itself prohibits images!) in some of the greatest Christian art ever created. The Church saw itself as the new Israel that had the right to appropriate these figures for its own use, but not the right to deny their greatness and importance.

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  81. “The world is not a prison house, but a kind of spiritual kindergarten where millions of of bewildered infants are trying to spell God with the wrong blocks.”
    ― Edwin Arlington Robinson

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  82. Hey, Skeptical have you ever been skeptical of anything? You seem to be full of it.

    “I think Christianity would be a much greater, and more effective”

    Anyway, Christianity does not care about what you think. The Christian churches in which priest can marry and which do not pay much attention to Virgin Mary practically ceased to exist at least in Europe. It is only Catholic Church that is left as the last redoubt. It does not need reforms. It rather needs counter-reforms. It is up to you to decide on which side you are with your “I think.” Some people if they stop thinking actually do less harm, also to themselves.

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  83. I don’t blame the ancient Jews for anything. Their leaders recorded things as they saw it. They were no worse than others of their time.

  84. Josephus sounds pretty embarrassed by the terroristic elements within his tribe. Those fellows would fit right in with the Taliban today. They may even be the original of the Islamic terrorists.

  85. Sorry, no can do. The Virgin Birth and the Incarnation are signs of Jesus’ Divinity. His status as a Person of the Holy Trinity. Take that out and Jesus has the standing of a rabble-rousing hippy. I might as well be a Hindu or something else.

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  86. “Anyway, Christianity does not care about what you think. ”

    I’m sure it does not.
    In spite of this extraordinary state of affairs ((;-)) I persist in having my own ideas and and developing my own opinions. Fancy that.
    And nothing whatsoever—schon gar nicht another commenter on an Unz forum—obliges me to “take sides” in any argument, much less a theological one!

  87. You have a point.
    What about a virgin birth without a father in the sky?
    That, too, would be a miracle . . .

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  88. Kyle,

    I am a Chiistian. My depressed soul was lifted by the Catholic Christmas service, doesn’t matter if am to disagreeing on many points,

    I make myself a heretic now. Have you read the Marciomite epistles or gospel? The letters are, as is your impression, very pure, there is a t heory that he was really Saint Paul, if you read the NT, mort of the Epistles of Saint Paul are attributed to, and addressed to many.

    The Marcionite epistles sing to me.

    Dead tired.

    Must sleeping

  89. skepital

    i wonder about the virgin birth.the rising from the dead,
    mohammed flyng off from jerusalem on a winged horse
    moses striking a rock for water,jeremiah being a bull frog………
    wonder don’t you.

    but thats the beauty of relegion,once you believe…..anything is possible.its that first step…..the x factor…after that it all follows on x+1,x+2,x+3……

    the x factor is crucial because it is made up of various parts and one part is the source of infomation.the books or the priests,or past happenings.history as preacher.
    who writes the narrative.can they be trusted.

    the elephantine papyri about passover located at the berlin museum gives instructions on passover and how to keep it.it was dated 400 years before the birth of christ.
    yet here we have joyce casting doubt like bread on the turntable

    i first heard about elephantine island from an egyptian who lived there.his family had a boat and took tourists on the nile.he told me about the temple.he also told me that there is a lot more stuff that was taken over the years and stashed away by collectors.i personally have seen one example from ethiopia written in aramic from that era.this is rock solid proof of ongoing rituals by jews over thousands of years.one of the reasons why i keep passover.

    150 years ago a preacher could stand up and spin any tale of bullshit and get away with it because the source of infomation was restricted by the gatekeepers.these days with open systems the liars are being exposed on a daily basis.judge one judge them all.

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  90. The works of humans are truly inspiring, including the works that have been inspired by their belief. And IMO those works, rituals, etc. have a kind of “second-hand smoke” effect on averagely sensitive people.

    IMO one does not have to “believe in” deities and miracles to entrain with those who do, and by doing so to entrain over centuries with all those who have expressed their belief in all the ways that humans have done since humans started doing this, which maybe was before our species could actually speak.

    I do wonder what is the core of Jews’ belief system, other than an attachment to ancient ritual and the idea of The Return (to the Holy Land). The Return has occurred—what now?
    Do Jews still expect a Messiah to come?
    Are they keeping watch for him or her? Who would be in charge of identifying this person? And what would become of Judaism if a or the Messiah did come?

    I guess the Unz software doesn’t include an emoticon “conversion.” ((:-))

  91. Jan 7, 2017 Israeli diplomat caught on camera plotting to ‘take down’ UK MPs

    Shai Masot is recorded discussing how to discredit MPs in comments described by Israeli embassy as ‘unacceptable’.

  92. Sceptical

    One sign will be the spread of judaism to north Africa and beyond and the conversion of Moslems there to a form of judaism.

    I am no expert.you will have to ask my rabbi on core beliefs.however there are 2 that are important.keeping the Sabbath and keeping kosher…..all to varying degrees.studying is another

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  93. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    Luther only declared Jews to be evil once they rejected his overtures, which were based on his belief that Jews rejected Christianity because of Catholic corruption and not on theological grounds.

    Your statement about the Christian Bible demonstrates gross ignorance. One need only look at Matthew so see how broadly that book quotes the Old Testament to demonstrate the prophetic fulfillment of Christ’s birth.

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  94. Bishop Jon Spong has written extensively on that very subject, that Christianity will not survive if it insists on clinging to its non-sense dogma.

  95. So, what were Jesus’ ‘actual notions’? Christianity is a ‘much greater’ universal religion (it is actually the only universal religion), precisely because of the Virgin Birth.

  96. Sorry, but the idea that Exodus is a fabrication of the Hellenistic period is just false. Hebrew of that period has plebty of Aramaic loanwords and a few Greek ones two. Exodus (yes, I read it in the original) has a much more archaic style in terms of its syntax and vocabulary – a handful of Aramaic toponyms and no Greek loanwords, suggesting thst it dates to the 8-th to the 6-th century BCE. The idea that the Torah was written in a later period is has been discredited.

    Do your homework before you come up with this kind of unresearched, pseudo-academic drivel. Or is the international Jewish conspiracy preventing that from happening as well?

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  97. Perhaps he was more envious than disgusted. He married a nun.

    Publicly, not in secret while hypocritically preaching chastity for others.

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  98. How about a religion based on a foundling in a cabbage patch? Suppose the story goes that Jesus emerged fully formed from a rock, would that convince you?. The Virgin Birth ties in with the mythic yearnings of humankind. Christians accept it to be true since it is an embodiment of a higher truth.

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
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  99. What about if there was a discontinuity in Torah transmission. Were the reconstruction of some parts of Torah? Were there some back translation from Greek, say from Septuagint?

  100. The Christian position is that the Jews were correct for 2,000 years, or at least closer to correct than any other people

    So Christianity believes that the Jews were correct to slay their enemies and steal land from the Canaanites? And that that Jews were the Chosen People for 2,000 years and everyone else was inferior? Interesting.

    but unfortunately rejected Jesus

    Yeah, really “unfortunate” how the Jewish Pharisees paid Jesus’ disciple Judas money to betray him, hauled him into court and testified that he was a blasphemer against the Jewish religion, and got the reluctant Roman procurator to torture him to death. And his Jewish disciples denied knowing him during his trial. Really, really unfortunate, I’ll say.

    Actually, the Jews didn’t reject Jesus — the Pharisees and priests had him executed precisely because he developed a large following among the people. Teaching the people to “love thy neighbor” undermined the Jewish religion, which taught “kill the goyim and take his land with God’s blessing.”

    The Church saw itself as the new Israel

    Hardly. Read St. Augustine’ s City of God sometime. For Augustine, Earthly kingdoms were evidence of original Sin and were inherently flawed and unjust. Augustine says “What are kingdoms but great robberies?” Certainly that was true of Rome, but also of Israel, stolen from the Canaanites. The Church saw the “promised land” not on Earth but in Heaven, and it was open to Jew and Gentile alike, not merely the “Chosen.” That’s not a “new Israel,” that’s a completely New Covenant which replaces the flawed Jewish Covenant.

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  101. Luther only declared Jews to be evil once they rejected his overtures, which were based on his belief that Jews rejected Christianity because of Catholic corruption and not on theological grounds.

    But Luther was wrong about that. The Jews rejected his overtures because they believed that they were The Chosen People and God would empower them to kill the goyim and return to Zion. When he discovered that they were really serious about this, he declared them evil.

    Your statement about the Christian Bible demonstrates gross ignorance. One need only look at Matthew so see how broadly that book quotes the Old Testament to demonstrate the prophetic fulfillment of Christ’s birth.

    “Cast not ye pearls before swine.” Mt 7:6

  102. I may have missed something in my glance through this comment but doubt if it would counter my surprise at your counter-Holocaust thesis based on there being a Jewish conspiracy to destroy German civilisation or something along those lines. It just doesn’t fit with my largely Paul Johnson derived picture of European Jewry before 1940.

    Who were the educated relatively rich Jews who could have conceivably got up such a project? Only the German Jews (at most 600,000). Certainly not the Ost Juden in Germany who were looked down upon. And they were looked down upon because the German Jews were so thoroughly assimilated and proud of their German culture and their contributions to it. Moreover some 33 per cent of married German Jews had married out by 1933. Your thesis seems to be built on no solid foundations.

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  103. This seems a good point – since I am not going to wade through all the comments, Jew obsessed and otherwise – to express my surprise that the article doesn’t deal with the elaborate work done by scholars, notably German, on the composition and editing of the Torah/Pentateuch with reference to the parts where God is referred to as El, or to Jahweh, and all the other reasons for detecting many hands at many times – but all ending about 500 BC with the return from captivity. The reaction-to-Manetho thesis is totally at odds with all that and to preach the Joyce/Manetho gospel without reference to that solid basis of scholarship is a bit like saying to schoolchildren “Queen Boudicca was cruelly killed by the Romans who gave the world the Roman Catholic Church to justify their later imperialism…. and then good King William came from the Netherlands and, through his 1688 Glorious Revolution gave the world the rule of law, limited monarchy and proto-democracy.

    We simple folk here on UR are like such schoolchildren and Mr Joyce shouldn’t lead us astray with bold oversimplifications and omissions.

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  104. What’s strange is that Islam never seems to face the same scrutiny on internet forums.mostly about judaism and sometimes Christianity.never on unz.or have i missed an article or two.

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  105. Because the text is worthless, having been written – as far as anyone can tell – centuries after the events it purports to portray, and because the archaeological evidence says that the text is fake news.

  106. More fool them.

  107. “The Virgin Birth and the Incarnation are signs of Jesus’ Divinity.”

    Whereas I view the nativity yarns as obviously Greek/gentile intrusions into tales that otherwise were about a Jewish milieu. Assuming he actually existed, and I suspect he did, Jesus was a fascinating character; a minor league prophet preaching and doing magic tricks around rural Galilee, and reportedly saying the most interesting things.

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  108. re Paul Johnson: “Leave the gun, take the cannoli.”

    Paul Johnson is the gun — the propulsive force behind a killing narrative that sinks like lead once its carefully assayed.

    re “Who were the rich Jews . . .”

    Take the cannoli: Against Our Better Judgment, by Alison Weir, (reviewed by Dr. Stephen Sniegoski)

    Weir offers substantive ingredients, blended in appropriate proportions, wrapped carefully.

    It’s been a while since I read Weir’s book, but if I recall correctly she pays special attention to the role of Louis Brandeis in working under, behind and through US presidencies and other major institutions to bring about major advantages for Jews and Jews only.

    Numerous other “rich Jews” played major roles in involving USA in WWI, in maneuvering Versailles negotiation for the benefit of Jews, in dominating Weimar, in functioning in Bolshevik Communism, in influencing Churchill, and in bringing about World War II, once again, for the benefit of Jews. Prominent among those “rich Jews” were Bernard Baruch, Felix Frankfurter, Samuel Untermeyer, Stephen Wise, the Morgenthaus, father Henry and son Henry Jr.

    Second helping of cannoli:
    Douglas Reed’s The Controversy of Zion esp. ch. 10 and forward, discuss the involvement of these persons.


    Dr. Andrew Joyce’s essay brought to mind the opening chapter to Benzion Netanyahu’s writing on the Spanish Inquisition. That chapter lays out the Jewish approach to taking power within whichever state they dwell, placing the origin of that tribe-wide strategy in Egypt in the 6th century BC. The fundamentals of that Jewish strategy remain pretty much the same to this day, spots and leopards being what they are. It will take several hours of work to put together a coherent assessment of those fundamentals, so put some cannolis in the freezer for later.

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  109. Check your calendar, dearieme; those “yarns” wove in and out of the myth systems of Mesopotamian peoples well before Hebrews appeared on the scene — Gilgamesh embarked on adventures with his friend Enkidu while Hebrews were still gathering rocks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55fCRqAlQoc

    nb the use of word “yarn” may make you think yourself hip and suitably irreverent, but in fact it marks you as ignorant of the profound value of myth as the evolving and unifying narrative of culture and civilization.

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  110. the profound value of myth as the evolving and unifying narrative of culture and civilization.

    The problem presenting itself to some myth-makers are that they are not the only ones who understand this.

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  111. You forgot to mention that their immigration ban extends to non white Jews as well.

    Really make the jews the worlds greatest hypocrites when they tell every other nation on the planet to become multicultural and multiracial while only allowing snow white jews into their little “democracy”

  112. Not strange at all, Islam isn’t as familiar to Westerners. And criticism of Islam is actually dangerous, people like Theo van Gogh have been killed for it even in Western Europe.
    But Unz Review is certainly unbalanced, it’s probably harming the site.

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  113. A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media

    Anti-Semitism is excluded from MSM. Is it interesting, important and controversial?

  114. Keep sucking up, you cowardly German cuck.

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  115. [But Unz Review is certainly unbalanced, it’s probably harming the site.]

    You are probably right, thought so myself for a while. Look e.g. at the banal reaction from a previous reply to this comment of yours.

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  116. your own anonymous courage, of course, keeps everyone enthralled.

  117. “How about a religion based on a foundling in a cabbage patch? Suppose the story goes that Jesus emerged fully formed from a rock, would that convince you?”

    The cabbage patch idea has already been used.
    By parents avoiding having to try to explain to their elder children where the new baby came from.
    It seems like kind of a tenuous basis for a religion. Or belief.

  118. The problem presenting itself to some myth-makers are that they are not the only ones who understand this.

    Aye, as in the case of Philip Zelikow, executive director of the 9/11 Committee:

    “Prof. Zelikow’s area of academic expertise is the creation and maintenance of, in his words, ‘public myths’ or ‘public presumptions’ which he defines as ‘beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known with certainty) and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community.’

    In his academic work and elsewhere he has taken a special interest in what he has called ‘searing’ or ‘molding’ events (that) take on ‘transcendent’ importance and therefore retain their power even as the experiencing generation passes from the scene. . . .
    He has noted that ‘a history’s narrative power is typically linked to how readers relate to the actions of individuals in the history; if readers cannot make the connection to their own lives, then a history may fail to engage them at all.”

    (“Thinking about Political History”, Miller Center Report, Winter 1999, pp. 5-7)

    Isn’t that the same as saying there is neither history nor truth; that what is really important is the manipulation of epochal events so they serve the interests of society’s managers? Thus, it follows that if the government can create their own “galvanizing events,” then they can write history any way they choose.

    If that’s the case, then perhaps the entire war on terror is cut from whole cloth; a garish public relations maneuver devoid of meaning.

    http://qlipoth.blogspot.com/2006/10/creation-and-maintenance-of-public.html

    “If that’s the case, then perhaps the entire war on terror is cut from whole cloth; a garish public relations maneuver devoid of meaning,”

    is the ineluctable outcome of

    “Judgments are not intended to imply that we have proof that shows something to be a fact.”

    by the folks who create their own reality, or
    “public presumptions”, in the absence of facts.

    (not unlike the holocaust narrative )

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  119. criticism of Islam is actually dangerous, people like Theo van Gogh have been killed for it even in Western Europe.

    The Theo van Gogh thing was almost certainly a false flag executed precisely to plant this idea in people’s minds.

    In reality, people can jeer at Islam all they want in Europe and they are in no danger. Well, unless the Mossad makes them the target of a false flag, like what almost certainly happened to Theo Van Gogh.

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  120. (not unlike the holocaust narrative )

    Go for it!

    (not unlike the holocaust narrative )

    Not unlike the Solon and Croesus narrative.

    Go for it!

  121. “So Christianity believes that the Jews were correct to slay their enemies and steal land from the Canaanites? And that that Jews were the Chosen People for 2,000 years and everyone else was inferior? Interesting.”

    Pretty much – although “Chosen” does not necessarily mean “superior.” The Old Testament account is clear (and Jewish rabbis would agree) that the Israelites messed up again and again – but that was when they abandoned the Covenant, not when they were faithful to it.

    The best New Testament account of this would be in 1 Corinthians 10:

    “For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ [my italics].” YHWH was not just God the Father, as people often mistakenly say, but the entire Trinity, even though the mystery of the Trinity had not yet been revealed.

    But Paul goes on to say – “Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness,” and then gives several examples of this.

    It really was not until after the Babylonian Exile that the Jews consistently adhered to the Covenant – an apparently dull period mostly ignored by the Bible. Apostasy and conflict make better stories, I guess.

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  122. Oh, sheesh.

  123. Modern-day Chicago.

  124. Ron Unz, for your own sake if nothing else, stop publishing this nutcase.

    For non-fruitcakes, here is a nice video of Tommy Robinson explaining some of the things that happen to critics of Islam in Europe.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4LynP0o2j0

    He was lucky, of course.

    http://metro.co.uk/2016/12/29/man-who-attacked-mosque-with-bacon-sandwiches-found-dead-in-prison-6350609/

    (Read the Pravdaesque article carefully, it turns a man being murdered in prison by Muslims, after being imprisoned for a prank, into a story about a member of a “racist gang” who was “found dead” in prison after “attacking” a mosque. This resembles European headlines about Palestinian “youths” who are shot after “alleged stabbing incidents”. If Revusky could keep to a word-limit, he could probably get a job at the Metro).

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  125. You are sidestepping my questioning of your thesis mainly expounded in your paragraph beginning “The real holocaust”. If you rely on mostly American Jewish campaigning against Germany then you are simply putting an idiosyncratuc interpretation on the reaction of Jews to Hitler’s becoming Chancellor and the prompt confirmation of Nazi anti-Semitism.

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  126. “The world is not a prison house, but a kind of spiritual kindergarten where millions of of bewildered infants are trying to spell God with the wrong blocks.”

    ― Edwin Arlington Robinson

    If they’d stick to spelling it may not be so bad. Instead, they wanna play god with the same blocks.

    PS: Even worse is that the infants accepted as leaders are mostly crazy as well.

  127. Here’s another “Exodus” story. I present it in hopes that someone can contribute some insightful comments since I myself am otherwise quite ignorant about it.

    CONCERNING THEUDAS AND THE SONS OF JUDAS THE GALILEAN

    1. NOW it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, (9) persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus’s government.

    -Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews – Book XX, CHAPTER 5.

  128. Is this also related, or what?

    Joshua 3:14-17King James Version (KJV)

    14 And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people;

    15 And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)

    16 That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

    17 And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.

  129. Actually, Luther preached marriage for priests. And he did what he preached.

  130. A cue: The Lobby has inordinate power over the US policies
    Try to make your tribe less interesting for the US citizenry by ceasing the tribe’s meddling into the US Congress affairs and by reigning over the obnoxious Israel-first kind in ever-belligerent ziocons’ think tanks and other strategically important places like MSM and FedReserve.
    I do agree with you that the facts of Saudis’ bribes for Clintons should be investigated. There also should be a congressional hearing about Israel’s special relationships with the despicable ISIS in Syria. Though considering the CIA/FBI cooperation with Al Qaeda there (hey, Iraq war veterans!) it is doubtful that the US Congress will be interested in such investigation.

  131. “But Unz Review is certainly unbalanced…”
    You mean it is not politically correct enough? – Thanks god. This is a forum for free thinkers.
    Are you aware of a special senate decree that curtails the freedom of speech in order to prevent any (ANY) criticism of Israel? The decree looks very unbalanced for me, but not for you, I guess:
    https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/instead-fighting-antisemitism-new-senate-bill-threatens-free-speech/
    https://theintercept.com/2016/02/16/greatest-threat-to-free-speech-in-the-west-criminalizing-activism-against-israeli-occupation/

    • Agree: jacques sheete
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  132. I can’t find anything about the cause of death of that guy who had been jailed for “attacking” a mosque with bacon…do you have any info that confirms he was killed by Muslims? It’s certainly possible, maybe even likely (Tommy Robinson was violently attacked by a Muslim gang in jail after he had been imprisoned on some trumped up charge for tax evasion), but I’d like to see more confirmation.

  133. If Revusky could keep to a word-limit, he could probably get a job at the Metro).

    But word count is one of the tools that we use in the search for “The Truth.” Higher word count equals more “Truth.”

    Ron Unz, for your own sake if nothing else, stop publishing this nutcase.

    So, you discount the idea that JR is RU?

  134. I don’t really understand anyway why Ron Unz chooses to re-publish articles like that one by this Joyce guy…it’s not even original content since it had previously been published on The occidental observer website. Anybody who’s interested in that kind of material can look it up there. Publishing it here plays right into the unfortunate perception that much of Unz review is primarily anti-Jewish.

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  135. If you rely on mostly American Jewish campaigning against Germany then you are simply putting an idiosyncratuc interpretation on the reaction of Jews to Hitler’s becoming Chancellor and the prompt confirmation of Nazi anti-Semitism.

    I’m doing my best to figure out the implications of “idiosyncratic,” Wizard.

    It’s true that I cite and rely upon American Jewish reactions to Hitler’s becoming chancellor, and sequellae. The persons and events that I cite are evidence-based, verifiable, and extraordinarily influential in shaping the course of events.

    If you have other, “non-idiosyncratic” information, such as the names, events, etc. from a non-American Jewish perspective, I’d appreciate if you would share it.

    What I think you are trying to get at is the German Jewish reaction to Hitler’s appointment ??

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  136. “yarn” is nothing to do with being hip; it is an understated way of saying “a load of bollocks”.

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  137. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    Islam doesn’t leave out the Virgin Birth.

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  138. oh my
    yesterday someone that I respect told me that the criticism of “yarn” was harsh; that “yarn” meant stories, tales we tell. I felt a little embarrassed and chastened.

    But that is not what you meant, dearieme, and tho “hip” might be inappropriate, the airy dismissal of myths, or yarns, or tales, as “a load of bullocks” truly does suggest that you do not appreciate the profound importance of myths and their power to define and unify a community. That’s sad.

    PS I will grant this, however: as I understand Greek mythology, or Norse or many others, those myths are the starting point for numerous and somewhat free-form spiritual rumination, enlightenment, inspiration, enjoyment, aesthetic delight. Not like Christian & some Jewish fundamentalist dogmatization of myths meant as a litmus test of compliance & submission. THAT would be “bollocks.” (like the dogmatized holocaust narrative)

  139. I am a newcomer here, but my impression is that the Unz Review has partly an anthologizing function: bringing many types of items of interest under one umbrella.
    Many other sites do the same, but the Unz Review is particularly good at this, IMO, because there is a lot here, and the items stay “live” for a long time.
    Obviously, not everything published here is original here, or available only here.
    What is most original is the mix. IMO.
    Reflecting the choices and interests of Ron Unz. AFAIK.

    So, telling readers to just “go somewhere else” to read something seems a bit odd.
    Should they “go somewhere else” to read most of the items they find here?
    The Andrew Joyce piece has generated a lot of interesting comment.
    Taken together, the article, and the comment constitute an original thing.

  140. I didn’t know that!

    Well, that just goes to show how nice Muslims can be.

  141. I am simply getting at your overblown “real holocaust” attempt to reverse the usual understanding. of who was responsible for unjustified aggression and taking of ethnically selected lives.  Clearly I would have thought the small minority of disproportionately intermarried and assimilated German Jews don’t fit your picture even if they irritated other Germans (as  upmarket richer gypsies in similar numbers might have).)  And the sudden erupĺion of American Jewish opposition to the Nazis was effectually self defence analogously to everyday criminal examples of assistance to those who are attacked or some of the measures taken in the 60s to support the civil rights of African Americans.

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  142. annamaria……free thinkers,did you say free thinkers or was it free blinkers

    really like charlie hebdo.

    sharia law in pakistan is slowly being changed to be more moderate by world opinion and external pressure.take honour killings for example.they are human right abuses yet why has islamic law in pakistan allowed them to be carried out.there is simply no justification.yet jews and christians do not attack moslems with racist hate speech because of it.

    see the difference

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  143. I followed your link and saw the “Passover letter” which was written well before Gmirkin’s proposed publication date of the Pentateuch.

    However, this letter contains no mention of the Passover story found in Exodus, but it does discuss a feast of unleavened bread. And, even more interesting, the feast appears to be directed by… gasp… King Darius II, the Persian emperor!

    Could it be that the Jewish Feast of Unleavened Bread is actually a revision of an older pagan ritual, just like what we’re told about Christmas and Easter?

  144. Theo van Gogh was almost certainly actually assassinated by a Muslim as reported in the media. Not reported – no doubt due to lack of column space – were indications that the assassin was acting at the behest of sophisticated Muslim instigated.

    Assassination of infidels and of Muslims deemed infidels (aka “takfir”) has been a feature, not a bug, of mainstream Islam since its murderous inception.

    On the other hand, the murder, also in the Netherlands, of Pim Fortuyn was almost certainly a false flag operation, replete with a convenient crazy patsy.

    Fortuyn was highly educated, gay, socially liberal, BUT drew the establishment’s murderous hate for being an openly anti-immigrant, anti-government libertarian. This is why he had to be murdered pour décourager les autres.

    The murderous viciousness of the Netherlands’ limousine-liberal establishment is there for all to see in the repeated bizarre attempts to prosecute Dutch MP Geert Wilders for ungood spech.

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  145. Your ideas have their adherents. It is commonplace to dismiss the dogmas of Christianity as later graftings from Greek myths on a happy-clappy rabbi in Palestine. The Dead Sea Scrolls and the story of the Essenes, however show that the internal Jewish milieu was full of heterodox ideas. Any number of beliefs were current, and undoubtedly influenced by the surrounding cultures. Thus whatever you think of the dogmas, they are an organic development of strains of Jewish beliefs current at that time, as elaborated through the Christian cult. The fleshing out and appeal of the Christian myths found parallels in the philosophy and myths of the Greeks. But that only shows to me the intrinsic truth of Christianity. As St Paul told the Greeks :

    For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

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  146. GabrielM, Nobody is forcing you to read anything on this site so instead of complaining about one contributor why not simply read another contributor or avoid this site that offends you so much.

  147. Ron Unz, for your own sake if nothing else, stop publishing this nutcase.

    Why do feel the need to ask Unz to stop publishing what I write? If everything I write is so obviously just silly stuff, why don’t you write a devastating rebuttal? It should be easy. So why don’t you say:

    “I’ve written this devastating rebuttal to all of Revusky’s silliness. Would you please publish it?”

    Of course, it’s not just about you specifically. I mean, why don’t any of you degenerate lying bastards ever write a rebuttal? Why don’t you engage in legitimate debate?

    The site provides you the technical ability to write a rebuttal yet you basically never do. Why is that? Well, it’s a rhetorical question, of course. Everybody who wasn’t born yesterday knows the answer. I mean, c’mon, WTF kind of rebuttal are you fucknuckles going to write?

    “Oh, no, that just looks like an orange. It’s really an apple.”

    “Of course, the story in the New York Times is true! Proof, you say? Well, c’mon, it’s in the New York Times!”

    On the idiot who went to prison for defacing a mosque, you say that is a prank. Something tells me that if he did the same thing to a synagogue, you would be singing a different tune.

    That Tommy Robinson is just some paid provocateur, obviously. The whole idea that people in the West are terrified of criticizing Muslims and Islam is patently absurd. In fact, so many people decide it’s a great career move — Paul Joseph Watson, Stefan Molyneux…. all the rest of the professional Islamophobes. Some of them, unfortunately (in my view) on this very site.

    There is another group of people that everybody is terrified of criticizing.

  148. Thank you for your reply, Wizard.

    With respect, you are repeating a narrative — the “usual understanding” — rather than stating facts, names, events, and context.

    Please state a
    timeline,
    context,
    ideologies in play,
    persons and/or parties,, and
    events,
    all supported with evidence,
    for your assertions of “unjustified aggression and taking of ethnically selected lives.”

    wrt to “the small minority of disproportionately intermarried and assimilated German Jews don’t fit your picture,” first, what picture is that?

    Second, according to a Jewish Telegraph Agency report on 26 May 1933, German ambassador to the US Hans Luther stated that

    “limitation of Jewish influence in Germany was being conducted with the greatest possible consideration toward the old native Jewish families who, he said; had proven themselves good Germans and indicated that it was directed against the Eastern European Jews who had overflooded the country since the War.”

    So “intermarried and assimilated German Jews” don’t fit the picture of persons the NS sought to expel from Germany.

    They do, however, fit precisely the picture of Jews that Louis Brandeis directed must leave Germany: on ~Feb. 14, 1933, Brandeis told Rabbi Stephen Wise that “All Jews must leave Germany; . . . no Jew should remain in Germany . . . I urge that all 587,000 Jews leave Germany.”

    re “The sudden eruption of American Jewish opposition” was not really so “sudden;” it was calculated and planned, by Jewish persons with ulterior agendas, predominantly involving zionism (which was at that time not embraced by the large majority of Jews and in least favor among German Jews — zionism was largely a movement of Eastern European Jews) and it was carried out against the oft-expressed wishes, even pleas, of German Jews.

    I can support each claim, above, with chapter and verse, Wizard.

    Can you support your defense of the “usual understanding” of “unjustified aggression and taking of ethnically selected lives” on a coherent timetable?

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  149. Theo van Gogh was almost certainly actually assassinated by a Muslim as reported in the media.

    Almost certainly, eh? Your proof? As best I understand, your offered proof consists of two parts:

    A. This is what the MSM says.
    B. This is the kind of thing those Muslims do.

    I find both arguments laughable.

    On the other hand, the murder, also in the Netherlands, of Pim Fortuyn was almost certainly a false flag operation, replete with a convenient crazy patsy.

    Now, this gets interesting. You recognize that this incident was almost certainly a false flag, yet the other one almost certainly wasn’t.

    Now, to my mind, if one was a false flag, probably both were. Just as, if the JFK assassination was a CIA hit (which it was) then the RFK assassination was too. It strikes me as extremely unlikely that one was a Deep State hit and the other they are telling the truth about.

    I don’t have any special facts regarding the Theo Van Gogh thing. But even just looking at the timing, you see that the Dutch were very opposed to sending troops to Afghanistan and then this incident changed the psychology and soon afterwards, there were Dutch troops in Afghanistan. Granted, that doesn’t absolutely prove anything, but the convenient timing of it raises suspicions.

    Also, the Theo Van Gogh incident is eerily similar to other obvious psy-ops involving cartoonists. But anyway, if the Pim Fortuyn assassination was a false flag, it’s an odds on bet (it seems to me anyway) that the Theo Van Gogh thing was as well. It just stands to reason…

  150. “INADMISSIBLE, adj. Not competent to be considered. Said of certain kinds of testimony which juries are supposed to be unfit to be entrusted with, and which judges, therefore, rule out, even of proceedings before themselves alone. Hearsay evidence is inadmissible because the person quoted was unsworn and is not before the court for examination; yet most momentous actions, military, political, commercial and of every other kind, are daily undertaken on hearsay evidence. There is no religion in the world that has any other basis than hearsay evidence. Revelation is hearsay evidence; that the Scriptures are the word of God we have only the testimony of men long dead whose identity is not clearly established and who are not known to have been sworn in any sense. Under the rules of evidence as they now exist in this country, no single assertion in the Bible has in its support any evidence admissible in a court of law. It cannot be proved that the battle of Blenheim ever was fought, that there was such as person as Julius Caesar, such an empire as Assyria. But as records of courts of justice are admissible, it can easily be proved that powerful and malevolent magicians once existed and were a scourge to mankind. The evidence (including confession) upon which certain women were convicted of witchcraft and executed was without a flaw; it is still unimpeachable. The judges’ decisions based on it were sound in logic and in law. Nothing in any existing court was ever more thoroughly proved than the charges of witchcraft and sorcery for which so many suffered death. If there were no witches, human testimony and human reason are alike destitute of value.”

    Ambrose Bierce: The Devil’s Dictionary

  151. I reluctantly reiterate: The Lobby is a parasitic institution existing solely for the sake of Israel-firsters and other promoters of permanent Purim. The Pakistanis are faraway, whereas the Israel-first parasitoid has been feeding on the US right here.
    Your Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, Kristolls and Kagans have been designing various “total-victory” plans that made the huge swaths of Middle East into a hell for the native populations. I care not about cultural traditions of distant and peaceful people. I care a lot about the ziocon war mongers and war profiteers that have been working hard to make these distant and peaceful places into dangerous ruins filled with mass graves. At some point, the raped Europe should come to senses and demand reparations from the Friends of Israel in the EU/UK and US.

  152. A picture of a psychopath, which should be placed in Holocaust museums to illustrate a malignant transformation of an East-European Jewish “victim” into a veracious Jewish-American cannibal:
    http://www.voltairenet.org/article194884.html
    Mrs. Nuland-Kagan is a “member of the founding family of the Project for a New American Century, which played a part in the planning of the events of 11 September 2001. Her father-in-law, Donald Kagan of the Hudson Institute, trained the neo-conservatives and the disciples of Leo Strauss in the military history of Sparta. Her brother-in-law, Frederick Kagan, from the American Entreprise Institute, looked after public relations for Generals David Petraeus and John R. Allen. Her sister-in-law, Kimberly Kagan, created the Institute for the Study of War. Her husband, Robert Kagan, is today salaried by the ex-Emir of Qatar at the Brookings Institution.
    … Her actions will probably be continued by the US deep state against the Trump administration.”

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  153. The interesting stuff in your post makes me forgive your evasion of my simple focus on your “the real holocaust….”. However, let me say that the American Jewish reaction to the anti-Semitism of the Nazis in early 1933 seems to me an admirable example which could properly have been followed by American Christians seeking to save Christian and other minorities in the Middle East when persecuted by Muslim fanatics. At least getting them out of their former homes to somewhere safe.

    Rather than to diplomatic PR it is reasonable to look at actual Nazi laws and treatment of people deemed Jewish (only just allowing for the survival of the occasional WW1 veteran married to a gentile and extending the taint of Jewishness to many Christians of Jewish ancestry even if conversion wasn’t recent and, to the Nazis, suspect).

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  154. I am amazed that these ‘revelations’ come to light only now. It was an open secret and subject even to jokes in relation to the role of the Kagans in Ukraine (the Kagan clan aspiring to become the Khagans of the new Khazar Khaganate on the Dnieper, holidaying in the palaces of the Czars in Crimea)!

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  155. sepharim gets a 3 pointer for put a smile on my dial.
    the kaga nim oy vey the kaga nim…..
    lama…..kaga……lama….kaga

  156. Still resistant to confronting facts, such as a simple timeline; still preferring to attempt to force reality to fit your prejudices; still relying on the Hollywood version of history..

    1. The “real holocaust” was the deliberate destruction of the German people, state, nation and heritage, by industrial means, planned and carried out by Jews, Anglos, and financial elites. It was genocide of the German people. The chain of documentary and physical evidence is irrefutable and far more solid than anything that has been or can be offered to support the claim that the mass extermination of “every single Jews” was planned and carried out, using gas chambers and other means, by the NSDAP. Look at the physical evidence: Germany was destroyed; the Jewish colony in Palestine was built.

    2. re: “let me say that the American Jewish reaction to the anti-Semitism of the Nazis in early 1933 seems to me an admirable example which could properly have been followed by American Christians seeking to save Christian and other minorities in the Middle East when persecuted by Muslim fanatics”.

    That’s obscene, Wizard, both with respect to Germany in the 1930s and regarding Christians in the ME today.
    In both instances the goal of Jewish provocateurs was regime change, for the aggrandizement of Jewish zionists. It was as illegitimate, and as deliberately counterproductive, for Jews to sanction and vilify the German government in 1933 – 1940 as it was for Jews to sanction and vilify Iraq’s government, and Syria’s government, and Russia’s government, and Iran’s government, and even Trump’s government today. As Patrick Buchanan has argued convincingly, the British pact with Poland (whom Jews riled thru sanctions and anti-German atrocity propaganda) turned an easily resolvable territorial dispute into a continent-wide conflagration, needlessly, just as the Jewish-provoked US-led destruction of Iraq set off the conflagration of the entire region.

    Regarding Germany:

    a. Numerous Jewish (self-styled) scholars argue that NSDAP quelled violence against Jews in Germany, from a time shortly after consolidating power in 1933 until the false-flag provocations of November, 1938. (Breitman & Lichtman and holocaust museum scholar David Engel agree on these points.)

    b. The same scholars agree that Hitler and NSDAP government/leadership paid very little attention to Jews over extended periods between 1933 and 1938. Jews were not the main concern of the German people or their government through most of the 1930s; rather, the German people and their government put their energies toward rebuilding their nation, their people, their economy, their roads, their housing, and their relationships with their European neighbors. And they succeeded, despite the persistent efforts of Jewish zionists in America to derail their restabilization programs.

  157. I get a rather better idea of where you are coming from than you bother to set out, I think, from Googling “Kristalnacht fase flag” and reading the demented accounts of how Jews arranged the provocation of the SA by getting a young identifiable Jew to kill a German diplomat in Paris on 7th November 1938. I would prefer as a starting point the calm Wikipedia exposition found by a search just for Krisatalnacht. After all it leaves supporters of your thesis to explain why Jews shouldn’t be regarded as a small minority under savage attack when anti Jewish legislation was passed almost immediately Hitler became Chancellor extending to removal of them all from civil service and university empployment and, in 1935 to denial of citizenship and not allowing them to marry gentiles. And one can hardly ignore the fact that the Nazis were violent beyond anything that Jewish or gentile admirers of the land of Goethe and Beethoven could have imagined. The Beer Hall Putsch was a foretaste but the Night of the Long Knives surely gave no sensible person any excuse for believing that Jews, gypsies or the most pacific Communists would be safe in Germany ruled by an unrestrained abd unopposed Nazi party.

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  158. ooooh, wikipedia. slaaaaam dunk. why, wikipedia is even more trustworthy than Buzzfeed, CNN and WaPo combined.

    that’s sarcasm, Wiz; translation = you have not studied the situation beyond the Steven Speilberg / comic book version.

    Douglas Reed was there, in the 1930s – 1940s, and a prominent journalist and mega-selling author. Here’s what he wrote about the American Jews who ginned up war:

    [MORE]

    ” In the case of “the Jewish persecution” in Germany I found that impartial presentation of the facts gradually gave way to so partisan a depictment that the truth was lost. This transformation was effected in three subtle stages. First the persecution of “political opponents and Jews” was reported; then this was imperceptibly amended to “Jews and political opponents”; and at the end the press in general spoke only of “the persecution of Jews”.

    By this means a false image was projected on to the public mind and the plight of the overwhelming majority of the victims, by this fixing of the spotlight on one group, was lost to sight.
    The result showed in 1945, when, on the one hand, the persecution of Jews was made the subject of a formal indictment at Nuremberg, and on the other hand half of Europe and all the people in it were abandoned to the selfsame persecution, in which the Jews had shared in their small proportion to populations everywhere.

    At that period I, typical of Englishmen of my generation, had never thought of Jews as different from myself, nor could I have said what might make a Jew, in his opinion, different from me. If I later became aware of any differentiation, or of the desire of a powerful group to assert one, this was not the result of Hitler’s deeds but of the new impediment to impartial reporting which I then began to observe. When the general persecution began I reported it as I saw it. If I learned of a concentration camp containing a thousand captives I reported this; if I learned that the thousand included thirty or fifty Jews I reported that. I saw the first terror, spoke with many of the victims, examined their injuries, and was warned that I incurred Gestapo hostility thereby. The victims were in the great majority, certainly much over ninety percent, Germans, and a few were Jews. This reflected the population-ratio, in Germany and later in the countries overrun by Hitler. But the manner of reporting in the world’s press in time blocked-out the great suffering mass, leaving only the case of the Jews.

    I illustrate this by episodes and passages from my own experience and reporting. Rabbi Stephen Wise, writing in 1949, gave the following version of events personally reported by me in 1933, and undoubtedly purveyed the same version in the presidential circle of which he was a familiar during those years:

    “The measures against the Jews continued to outstrip in systematic cruelty and planned destruction the terror against other groups. On January 29, 1933 Hitler was summoned to be chancellor . . . at once the reign of terror began with beatings and imprisonment of Jews. . . We planned a protest march in New York on May 10, the day of the ordered burning of Jewish books in Germany . . . the brunt of the attack was borne by Jews. . . concentration camps were established [310] and filled with Jews”.

    All these statements are false. The measures against the Jews did not outstrip the terror against other groups; the Jews were included among a much larger number of others. The reign of terror did not begin on January 29, 1933, but in the night of the Reichstag fire, February 27. No “burning of Jewish books” was ordered; I attended and reported that bonfire and have looked up my report published in The Times, to verify my recollection. A mass of “Marxist” books was burned, including the works of many German, English and other non-Jewish writers (my books, had they then been published, would undoubtedly have been among them); the bonfire included some Jewish books. the “brunt” of the terror was not borne by Jews, nor were the concentration camps “filled with Jews”. The number of Jewish victims was in proportion to their ratio of the population.

    Nevertheless this false picture, by iteration, came to dominate the public mind during the Second War.

    {snip}

    By 1937 the falsification of the news-picture from Germany, which was described in the last chapter, had been going on for four years. I gave several instances, and here adduce another. Rabbi Stephen Wise relates that the American Jewish Congress immediately after Hitler’s advent to power started the boycott- Germany movements on the basis of “cable reports” from Germany that “a nationwide pogrom” of Jews was being “planned”.* He then mentions, casually, that the “reported” pogrom “did not come off”, but the boycott did. **

    Starting with this imaginary pogrom in Berlin, the propagandist campaign in America formed the basis on which Mr. Roosevelt rested his “quarantine” speech. The Zionists around the president were not truly concerned about the suffering of Jews at all; on the contrary, it was necessary to their politics in America and to the entire undertaking, and they feared its alleviation. In this they continued the policy of the Talmudic revolutionaries in Czarist Russia, who went to the length of assassination to prevent the emancipation of Jews, as has been shown.

    Thus Rabbi Wise records that he and his fellow Zionists were not deterred by urgent protests and
    appeals from the Jews in Germany to stop the boycott. The prospect of an accommodation between Hitler and the Jews of Germany, indeed, appalled them and Rabbi Wise informed his associates of his “two fears” in this respect:

    “. . . that our Jewish brothers in Germany might feel moved or compelled to accept a peace agreement or pact that might mean some slight amelioration or mitigation of their wrongs. . . that the Nazi regime might decide to prevent some of the evil consequences of its regime by such palliative treatment of the Jews as would disarm worldwide Jewish protest”. (He describes the second possibility as the “graver” danger).

    Thus they feared that “the persecution” would collapse; the words are specific. Rabbi Wise, in New York, preferred that Jews in Germany should suffer rather than this should happen: “To die at the hands of Nazism is cruel; to survive by its grace were ten thousand times worse. We will survive Nazism unless we commit the inexpiable sin of bartering or trafficking with it in order to save some Jewish victims” (1934, to the world Jewish Conference). “We reject out of hand with scorn and contempt any and every proposal which would ensure the security of some Jews through the shame of all Jews” (1936). Mr. Brandeis, in Washington, was equally resolute for martyrdom in Germany: “Any arrangement which results in making a market abroad for German goods strengthens Hitler…. …To thus relieve Hitler’s economic distress in order to save by emigration some of Germany’s Jews would be …. deplorable statesmanship”.*

    For the Zionists in America the spectral danger of a reconciliation between Hitler and the Jews became most acute in 1938. General Smuts then sent his Defence Minister, Mr.
    Oswald Pirow, to Germany to ease tension in the Jewish question, if he could. The British prime minister, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, welcomed the attempt; he told Mr. Pirow that the pressure of international Jewry was one of the principal obstacles to an Anglo-German understanding and said he would be helped in resisting this pressure (Leon Pinsker’s “irresistible pressure”) if Hitler could be induced to moderate his spleen.

    Mr. Pirow then went to Germany. He says that he made a specific proposal, that Hitler responded favourably, and that agreement was in sight.

    At that very instant fate again intervened, as in the case of Mr. Huey Long, Count Stolypin, Czar Alexander II and others; whenever a chance of pacification appeared fate intervened. A young Jew shot a German diplomat, Herr von Rath, in Paris. Riots followed in Germany, synagogues were burned, and Mr. Pirow’s mission abruptly ended. No investigation into the murder, or any organization that might have been behind it, was held, or if one was begun it never produced any informative result; Rabbi Wise presents the familiar picture (found also in Mr. House’s novel) of the “half-crazed youth”, maddened beyond endurance.

    Mr. Roosevelt responded immediately: “The news of the past few days from Germany has deeply shocked public opinion in the United States. . . I myself could scarcely believe that such things could occur in a twentieth century civilization . . . I asked our Ambassador in Berlin to return at once for report and consultation” .

    The words referred to the synagogue-burning. (Mr. Roosevelt did not comment on the murder) and the central sentence is demonstrably untrue, because Mr. Roosevelt, and all his contemporaries, had earlier seen the wanton destruction of religious edifices. True, they had not been synagogues, but Mr. Roosevelt had “seen” the dynamiting of Christian churches and cathedrals in Communized Russia, and on becoming president had rushed to recognize the government that did it.
    . . .
    The United States in effect became involved in the Second War when President Roosevelt made these declarations in 1937 and 1938, not on the day of Pearl Harbour, and a straight line led from them to his later statement of July 17, 1942, when he implicitly promised vengeance on Germany solely on account of its treatment of Jews; the men who prompted him to that public threat had from the start vehemently opposed any mitigation of Jewish suffering in Germany.

    – from Douglas Reed, “Controversy of Zion”

    —–
    Peter Moreira’s biography of Henry Morgenthau, Jr., “The Jew Who Defeated Hitler,” supports that last point, that FDR definitively undertook to involve the USA in war against Germany in 1937-38, “solely on (false) accounts of treatment of Jews,” when Moreira reports that on Oct. 17, 1938, Morgenthau and FDR met and planned the number and location of air craft manufactures to carry out the destruction of Germany as planned by US military planners of Code Rainbow.

    For the timeline averse:
    Sept. 30, 1938 Munich Agreement signed
    Oct. 17, 1938 FDR and Morgenthau plan for air war against Germany
    Nov. 7, 1938 Grynszpan shoots vom Rath
    Nov. 9, 1938 vom Rath dies and the so-called Night of Broken Glass erupts

    —–

    And by the way — about SJW concern for Christians in the ME, in parallel with your conviction that Jews are the planet’s perpetually helpless and innocent victims: Israel just used the F-35s extorted from USA taxpayers to bomb Damascus
    https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/article/video-footage-israeli-jets-attacking-damascus/

    Video footage of Israeli jets attacking Damascus
    By Leith Fadel – 12/01/20175

    BEIRUT, LEBANON (1:35 A.M.) – The Israeli Air Force carried out a number of airstrikes over the Mezzeh Airbase in west Damascus tonight, destroying an ammunition depot while causing a series of explosions around this military installation.

    According to Israeli media reports, the fighter jet that carried out this mission was an F-35; this is the first time that these Israelis have used this aircraft against the Syrian Arab Army (SAA).

    Video footage of the Israeli airstrikes was captured by an Al-Masdar field correspondent that was approximately 500 meters from the Mezzeh Airbase when the attack occurred.

    The death toll from the Israeli airstrikes tonight is still unknown; however, a senior officer from the Syrian Arab Army told Al-Masdar News that it is not expected to be very high because there was not a large presence of soldiers near the ammunition depot.

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  159. Well-said. But eventually you will realize (as I have) that these people aren’t worth arguing with. They will never be convinced.

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  160. Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired. Jonathon Swift

    In the modern vernacular: You cannot reason someone out of something he or she was not reasoned into.

    These folks are operating at a more primitive level.

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  161. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    Douglas Reed was a person whose attitude might’ve been best described as deeply spiteful; he spared none that were caught in the cross-hairs of his raging mind; included foremost were Jews and your personal luminary, Adolf H. He was both a virulent antisemite and a Nazi hater.

    He had a fluid style of prose, earning Orwell’s praise as a Cassandra who foretold of the Nazi horrors; yet Orwell also noted Reed’s potential : “capable of doing a lot of harm among the large public for which he caters.”

    FDR wasn’t waiting for the Jews to prod him on; he’d been aware of the needful for a while, waiting only for the right moment.

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  162. Paul wrote his letters before the gospels of Matthew and Luke had been written. Therefore you can’t quote him in support of their obviously non-Jewish intrusions into the Jesus narratives. Mark (or rather whoever wrote the gospel we now call Mark’s) is much more plausible: his story begins with the adult Jesus becoming a public figure.

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  163. When the content and logic of an argument cannot be refuted, attack the author.

    SOP for hasbarats.

  164. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    reason [ree-zuh n]

    3. the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences:
    4. sound judgment; good sense.
    5.normal or sound powers of mind; sanity.
    6. Logic. a premise of an argument.
    7.Philosophy.
    the faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of first principles or by argument.
    the power of intelligent and dispassionate thought, or of conduct influenced by such thought.
    —-

    @ #163; “FDR wasn’t waiting for the Jews to prod him on; he’d been aware of the needful for a while, waiting only for the right moment.”

    From “Roosevelt’s Second Act: The Election of 1940 and the Politics of War,” by Richard Moe.

    on FDR decision-making process whether or not to seek a third term:

    “By the late spring . . . of 1940 . . .Sam Rosenman [FDR's speech writer] ‘took it for granted that the president had decided it was his duty to accept the nomination.’ . . .citing compelling reasons why Roosevelt should continue to serve . . . the most compelling of these being the war. . . . France had fallen; Britain was likely facing the same fate. There was also Hitler’s now-evident evil, imprisoning and slaughtering Jews wherever his troops went . . . ”

    How logical, how reasonable is the statement, “Hitler’s now-evident evil, imprisoning and slaughtering Jews wherever his troops went?”

    According to Rabbi Stephen Wise, Hitler had been “imprisoning and slaughtering Jews” beginning in 1933.

    Wise maintained close contact with FDR either face-to-face or through other members of Roosevelt’s administration, such as Henry Morgenthau, Jr., who met with the president almost daily, beginning at least when FDR became president, in January 1933. Surely Wise had informed FDR of Hitler’s “evil” in 1933, when his son, James Waterman Wise, published a book about Hitler’s virulent “Jew-hatred.” Why is it FDR was unaware of Hitler’s “imprisoning and slaughtering of Jews” between 1933 and early 1940, and became aware only in spring of 1940?

    Or was Wise lying in 1933 (as Douglas Reed alleges, in “The Conspiracy of Zion”)?

    Or is the statement by Richard Moe implying that a factor in FDR’s decision-making was that “Hitler’s now-evident evil, imprisoning and slaughtering Jews wherever his troops went” a gross exaggeration?

    There is ample evidence to support the lattermost case; namely, that it was a gross exaggeration that in Spring 1940 “Hitler was imprisoning and slaughtering Jews wherever his troops went.”

    The most compelling of that body of evidence is presented by Prof. David Engel, professor of holocaust studies at New York University and a scholar at the holocaust museum in Washington, DC.

    In a series of lecture titled “Understanding the holocaust,” Engel states repeatedly that although “Hitler planned to exterminate every single Jewish man, woman and child he could get his hands on,” that plan did not begin to take place until the spring of 1942. That is, according to an expert on holocaust, in 1940, Hitler was NOT “imprisoning and slaughtering Jews.”

    Maybe Prof. Engel is a poor scholar, or is misinformed, or lying.

    Reason and logic dictate that somebody is lying.

    We know that Rabbi Wise has a long history of lying. One example: in Peter Moreira’s biography of Henry Morgenthau, Jr. (which is based on Morgenthau’s hundreds of thousands of pages of personal diaries and notes), Moreira reports that in 1942 Rabbi Wise met with Morgenthau in the latter’s office in the US Treasury Department and told him that “Nazis were making soap and lampshades of Jewish flesh.” Morgenthau was deeply upset by this information, which he had begged Wise not to disclose to him.

    While it may be true that Douglas Reed had a “deeply spiteful” attitude, it is not reasonable to argue that Reed’s attitude changed the fact that Rabbi Wise had a long history of lying, and that his lies had extremely harmful impact; and that it is logical to infer that Wise’s purpose in lying was to further the zionist agenda.

  165. The Israelites started to mess it up when they changed the meaning of ‘berith’ -diatheke, from ‘last will, testament’ (a unilateral promise from God, entailing conditions for entrance into the inheritance) to ‘covenant’ (a bi-lateral contract, thinking that they are the ones setting the conditions, which God is obliged to respect forever).

  166. St Paul sojourned in ‘Arabia’ for it appears three years. He had his own sources.

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  167. “… my surprise that the article doesn’t deal with the elaborate work done by scholars, notably German, on the composition and editing of the Torah/Pentateuch with reference to the parts where God is referred to as El, or to Jahweh, and all the other reasons for detecting many hands at many times – but all ending about 500 BC with the return from captivity.”

    If you read the first chapter of the book, these questions will be answered. It’s an interesting read. Of course, you would have to be conversant in the relevant languages to truly make up your mind about the thesis. Like most of us, I suspect Mr Joyce is not fluent in these ancient tongues.

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  168. Indeed Mr Joyce’s article, with no suggestion that he is a learned scholar or even widely read, and despite your “it’s an interesting read” is not reason enough for me to divert time from other interesting reads such as John Keays “Sowing the Wind” (very relevant to discussions of Zionism) and Michael Lrwis’s “The Undoing Project” (even that is connected to many UR commenter’s interests because it shows what an intellectual powerhouse there is within Israel).

    If Mr. Joyce has any depth of knowledge in the field it is surprising that his article doesn’t deal with the very question I raise – if only by acknowledging the question and saying, as you have, that it is dealt with in Chapter 1.

  169. @[St. Paul] had his own sources.

    Indeed.
    The first one appeared to him on the road to Damascus (where he was baptized and instructed in the Christian faith, BTW, before going to Arabia): “1. Paul, an apostle, not sent from men nor made by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father . . . 11. But I certify to you, brethren, that the gospel that was preached by me is not according to man; 12. Because neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it by man; rather, it was by the revelation of Jesus Christ . . . 15. But when it pleased God, Who selected me from my mother’s womb, and called me by His grace, 16. To reveal His own Son in me, in order that I might preach Him among the Gentiles . . . (Galatians 1:11 – 12, 15 – 16)

    The second was further direct revelations:
    “It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me (2 Corinthians, 12, 1-9).

  170. Your argumemtative talent extends to diversionary tactics and blowing smoke.

    I trust I have given no reason for anyone to believe that I think “the Jews are the planet’s perpetually helpless and innocent victims”. I don”t so please cut off that diversion.

    Nor do I regard Wikipedia as a totally reliable source (thougj it is open to editing unlike. the late Douglas Teed’s dubious works). I simply put its Kristallnacht forward as a better summary of my starting point than anything you had proffered.

    To counter with reliance on Douglas Reed on the sole ground that he had spent a lot of the 30s in central Europe leaves me unimpressed by your judgment.

    I am specifically unimpressed by suggestions that Hitler would, for example, have preferred German Jews to emigrate as a solution to his problems with Jews. (It does of course raise the question of what he would have preferred for Jews further east). Of course Hitler had priorities and conflicting influences which weten:t totally irrational despite his descrnt into madness and drug taking to make JFK look like a milkshake addict. He obviously knew the risk he ran in the 30s if his anti-Semitic measures had been taken to the point where even the glib dim Douglas Reed”s understood.

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  171. Islam IS a form of Judaism, so there’s no need for mass conversions. Mass conversions to atheism from Judaism and Islam would be desirable and very progressive, though.

  172. HOORAY!!!!

  173. the stelas found at Akhet-Aten, Akhenaten’s capital seem to explain that population of that city moved to the land of Canaan after Akhenaten death and Egypt went back to polythiesm under the direction of the Father Ay who ruled Egypt after Akhenaton sonTutankhamun died, Ay probably ruled before that Tut was only 8, I am refering to book, Secrets of the Exodus writin by Messod and Roger Sabbah

  174. About Jewish integration vs separation, note Steven R. Weisman in the NYT: “No Jews today see the Hellenizers as role models.” He refers to “wealthy, educated Jews [who] were especially attracted to Greek culture, philosophy, sciences and athletics…” and says that Hanukkah “celebrates a stunning military victory in which strictly observant Jewish forces crushed the Jews who favored assimilation into the larger secular culture and expelled them from the Temple in ancient Jerusalem.” [Steven R. Weisman, "The Celebration of Hanukkah, Then and Now", NYT 20 Dec 97]

    http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/20/opinion/editorial-observer-the-celebration-of-hanukkah-then-and-now.html

    The essence of the story: Jews who favor integrating themselves with others are worthy of violent death–at the hands of the Orthodox. ‘Old-Testament Hatred’, which is a tad redundant frankly.

  175. You would certainly have noticed that the “stunning military victory” was against the arch-villain Syrian King Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a prototype of the anti-semitic ‘brutal dictators’ Al-Assad (father and son), sworn enemies of Israel. They ‘must go’, as in the time of the Maccabees, who established the ‘independence’ of Judah.
    Hanukkah is the celebration of the victory of the ‘Zionist’ Jews against the ‘universalist’ trends of the religion of the Prophets which became Christianity. Hence the push to replace Christmas with Hanukkah.

  176. I half agree with you there, utu, from outside, but as in the USA, RC organisations, and Pope Francis himself (personally flying three Muslim families in on Air Vatican, his own plane), seem to be abetting the Muslim invasions as much as the decayed Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.

    Still, memory of a very inspiring Catholic Christmas service in Tokyo remains strong in my heart.

    I will be going to regular services more again, from now.

  177. “I am specifically unimpressed by suggestions that Hitler would, for example, have preferred German Jews to emigrate as a solution to his problems with Jews.”

    I think you are on shaky historical ground with this statement, if I understand it correctly.
    Hitler would have been, and actually was, quite happy for Jews to just leave.
    Many were also forcibly expatriated. Of course, they had to leave all valuables behind.
    The Reich needed MONEY.
    The “please leave and you can’t take your money with you” was the basic policy at least until 1937. Things were up in the air throughout the mid-thirties.
    During this period many Jews (and others) did end up in Dachau, Sachsenhausen, etc. for a spell. For example, Jewish business owners. Their families could jump through hoops of all kinds to get them out again—occasionally the husbands just turned up on the doorstep after six months or so in a camp—and this usually sufficed to induce these families to pick up and leave Germany. Meanwhile the process of aryanization of businesses was going forward simultaneously, along with the political persecution of dissidents, many of whom obviously were Jews. Sometimes the stay in a camp was an addition prod to get the “economic detainees” people to just leave.

    The fact that no one would give them entry visas of course complicated things, which is why they tended to end up in Palestine, or Shanghai, or eventually Cuba. A number fled to parts of the former Austro-Hungarian where they had contacts, in-laws, etc., but with the German invasion of Yugoslavia and bolstering the local Ustace, etc., these families had to move on one way or another.

    A few years later the Jews and others in “undesirable” categories came to be seen as potential slave labor by the SS (which ran the economic entity that included the camps) and some in German industry at the same time that Hitler and another group settled on the Final Solution for the Jews (Wannsee Conference). There was always a tension between those two groups: those who just wanted to kill the Jews (and others) and those who wanted to keep them as a cheap labor force (see Monowitz– Buna Werk, Auschwitz III). They came together in a sense in the idea that one could work people literally to death and replace them with other semi-corpses, rinse and repeat. There is plenty of photographic and documentary evidence of all of this. A good place to start is Auschwitz Chronicle, by Danuta Czech.

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  178. Excuse me not reading the whole of your reply immediately. I think it is clear you have misunderstood me. I wasn’t denying that Hitler would have preferred Jews to leave, merely pointing out that it doesn’t get you far in defending Hitler or the Nazis.

  179. Your post was in response to S-Croesus.
    I don’t think the point of his/her post was “defending Nazis,” so in the context your introduction of “defending Nazis” meme looks like a red herring.

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