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Dysgenics and Low Creativity: Why China Can’t Save Civilization
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It’s possible to derive some comfort from contemplating the Chinese. Sure, unless something radical is done, Western civilization is going to collapse due to the most intelligent women having the fewest children and massive IQ (and highly fertile) immigration from the Third World [See At Our Wits’ End: Why We’re Becoming Less Intelligent and What It Means for the Future, By Edward Dutton and Michael Woodley of Menie] but surely civilization will be preserved by the Chinese. Unfortunately, research is showing that this is just wishful thinking.

Thus the leading IQ researcher Professor Richard Lynn actually proclaimed in his book Dysgenics that China’s one child policy—introduced in 1979 and abolished in 2015—was the saviour of civilization. The strongly cultural desire in China for a boy and the abortion of female fetuses, meant that by the late-1990s, young males massively out-numbered females in China, showed Lynn. The females would naturally be attracted to the wealthiest and most educated males, as these males would be able to provide the optimum lifestyle for them and, anyway, females tend to sexually select for status because doing so, under evolutionary conditions, ensured the survival of their offspring [Women marry up, By Edward Dutton, In T. Shackleford, & V. Shackleford-Weeks,Encyclopaedia of Evolutionary Psychological Science, Springer, 2018]. The inevitable result, argued Lynn: less intelligent Chinese men would fail to breed, as intelligence robustly predicts wealth and status and is about 80% genetic. In addition, the ability to pay the fines for breaking the One-Child law would allow the wealthy, and thus more intelligent, to have more than one child. As such, concluded Lynn China must have “eugenic fertility” and it is to China that the “torch of civilization” will pass. [Richard Lynn: “Eugenics and Dysgenics: A Promise Denied”, YouTube, at 42 minutes]

Unfortunately, this is not what research by a young Chinese psychologist has found. In a study published in 2016 in the leading journal Intelligence, Mingrui Wang presented some shocking—and counter-intuitive—findings. Even despite the one child policy, there is dysgenic fertility in China. [Evidence of Dysgenic Fertility in China, by Mingrui Wang et al, Intelligence, July-August 2016]

The Chinese researcher and his team explored the relationship between intelligence, education-level and fertility, using a large sample from the China Family Panel dataset, which is highly representative of the Chinese population. They found that among the cohort born between 1951 and 1970, the correlation between general intelligence and fertility was -0.1, very similar to that found in Western countries.

Between 1986 and the year 2000, the Chinese lost 0.31 IQ points per decade and between 1971 and the year 2000, the Chinese lost 0.75 IQ points.

The researchers also discovered that education level is negatively associated with fertility in China. And the negative correlation between fertility and both IQ and education level is stronger among females than males.

In other words, though the Chinese have an average IQ of 105 according to Richard Lynn, and despite their introduction of the One-Child policy, they are suffering precisely the same process as the West. The most intelligent females are not selecting for the most intelligent Chinese males or, indeed, any males. As in the West, they are dedicating themselves to their education and then their careers, meaning they are simply failing to pass on their genes at all.

In addition, the strong cultural tradition in China—especially in the low IQ countryside – of desiring sons rather than daughters, leading to selective abortion, is dual-edged. The more intelligent Chinese, living in the cities, are more likely to content themselves with having a daughter. And the more intelligent she is, the more likely she is to have no children, leading to the elimination of her (intelligent) parents’ genes. It is possible that this phenomenon could even be sufficiently strong to undermine any indirect benefits to IQ which may have been wrought by the one child policy.

Slightly less intelligent women are spending all of their twenties dedicated to their careers, only have children in their thirties and not having very many. The least intelligent Chinese women—too low in IQ and impulsive to use contraception—are, it would seem, having excess children even despite the fines and the risk of heavy-handed Communist Party officials (illegally) trying to compel them to have abortions []. Perhaps their husbands see the fines as a price worth paying if it ensures that they get a son.

In addition, the one child policy never even applied to China’s non-Han ethnic minorities. These groups are overwhelmingly rural-dwelling and they have lower IQ than the Han. The more Han a Chinese region is then the smarter it is [Differences in intelligence across the 31 regions of China and their economic and demographic correlates, By Richard Lynn & Helen Cheng, Intelligence, 2013]. For example, the average IQ of Tibetans in 92 [I Q and Mathematics Ability of Tibetans and Han Chinese, By Richard Lynn, Mankind Quarterly], meaning their IQ is almost 15 points lower than that of the Han, similar to that of Greece or Romania. [Intelligence: A Unifying Construct for the Social Sciences, By Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen, Ulster Institute for Social Research, 2012]

This decline is made all the more perilous due to research, led by a Japanese psychologist called Kenya Kura, which has shown that Northeast Asians are genetically less intellectually creative than Europeans. [Why do Northeast Asians Win So Few Nobel Prizes?, By Kenya Kura et al., Comprehensive Psychology, 4: 2015] Northeast Asians, compared to Europeans, have higher gene frequencies of polymorphisms which make people collectivist, socially anxious, and fearful of anything novel. Kura and his team argue that this is adaptation to a particular ecology, where it is vital to stay in a tightly-bonded group.

However, they note that scientific innovators tend to combine very high IQ with an optimally low level of collectivism, low social anxiety and low fearfulness of the new. In other words, they have high “Openness-Intellec t”, as psychologists term this trait. This psychological profile means that they can think outside the box and don’t care about the offence to vested interests which their new idea will almost certainly result in.

This is why, maintains Kura, it is the West that generated the Industrial Revolution, rather than more intelligent Northeast Asians. The West is indeed the Goldilocks Zone for genius.

“The torch of civilization” may well pass to China, but it will continue to get dimmer and dimmer and very little new fuel will be added to it. The torch’s bearer will slide into an increasingly authoritarian dictatorship—as happens to relatively low IQ societies—and the light of civilization will go out, unless it can somehow be passed to a society that is still under eugenic fertility.

Lance Welton [Email him] is the pen name of a freelance journalist living in New York.

(Republished from VDare by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity, Science • Tags: China, Chinese IQ, Dysgenic, IQ 
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  1. Gordo says:

    A colleague of mine who has completed some projects in China tells me emphatically that outside of the coastal elites there is no way their average IQ is as high as 105.

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    • Replies: @jgarbo
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  2. Talha says:

    dysgenic: tending to promote survival of or reproduction by less well-adapted individuals (such as the weak or diseased) especially at the expense of well-adapted individuals (such as the strong or healthy) the dysgenic effect of war

    So high intelligence seems to be dysgenic…survival of the fittest doesn’t play nice or by our rules.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
    I don't think that's the conclusion to draw (even tongue-in-cheek); intelligence concentrates upwards, and furthermore regression to the mean is being exposed for the sham propaganda pseudoscience that we all anticipated it would be.

    There's a difference between traits that select for numerical success (which yields more players on the field, each with about-average skills), and traits that select for greater relative success (a smaller number of players, all of whom have elite skills).

    I was in the throes of making an analogy with the vanishingly-small proportion of queens in bee (and ant) populations, and the persistence of queen bees/ants - but frankly that's a bit of a shit analogy ... since the queens do all the reproducing for the hive/colony.

    Fuck it - let's go there.

    Bees (and ants) are almost all neutered females; the exceptions are drones (stingless males who do not work and whose sole role is to mate with the queen) and queens.

    Each colony of ~10K-20K bees has 1 queen (which makes a queen rarer than an individual human with an IQ of about 160) and 200-ish drones (making drones as rare as a human with an IQ of about 135).

    They persist - despite their rarity - because they have a niche. There is no 'eugenic' pressure for the number of queens or drones to expand, but an expansion of their numbers would not be obviously dysgenic (a new queen generally will mean the establishment of another colony).

    Humans with elite cognitive ability have the most obvious and persistent niche in human civilisation; they are the originators of all innovation, which augments the productivity of all humans (they need slightly-less-elite humans to operationalise their innovations: really smart people have almost zero commercial nous).

    Cognitively-elite humans will keep that niche until we develop Artificial Super-Intelligence (ASI) - in a decade or so - at which point it all becomes moot because reproduction will be irrelevant.
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  3. There have not been any truly representative studies of Chinese IQ or intelligence. Too many people are still excluded from studies conducted in the mainland, often because of government interference, the Chinese tendency toward self-serving embellishment, or simply the inability to obtain a representative sample due to the still extremely disorderly nature of Chinese society. The most laughable case is the Shanghai PISA results — not only not representative of China, but not even close to representative of Shanghai. Studies done using ethnically Chinese people in other countries produce results that are obviously not representative of the entirety of the Chinese ethnicity, as those individuals very often must meet criteria positively correlated with intelligence, ambition, and financial prowess to make their way out of China. Having worked as a factory inspector and teacher in China, I personally doubt the average IQ for the entire Chinese population is over 95 — and that is after having taught in very good schools (i.e., expensive, well-known schools to which rich parents send their kids) in the dark blue regions on the map.

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    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    Come, come. There have been dozens of studies, many of which have been reproduced in The Unz Review.
    , @Hbd investor
    And have you looked at the white students in the US and Europe?

    If you think that China is 95, then whites must be even lower

    And the PISA was not limited to Shanghai they did 12 provinces, and even the poorest provinces dominated

    Several PISA administrators from Europe surveyed poor chinese schools with no heating in extremely poor regions and administered tests personally

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-17585201

    >Mr Schleicher says the unpublished results reveal that pupils in other parts of China are also performing strongly.

    >"Even in rural areas and in disadvantaged environments, you see a remarkable performance."

    >In particular, he said the test results showed the "resilience" of pupils to succeed despite tough backgrounds - and the "high levels of equity" between rich and poor pupils.

    And in addition poor Vietnam also beats white countries in PISA
    , @Jim
    It would be desirable to have more representative data on the IQ of the Chinese population. However there is extensive data on the IQ of the Japanese population and the results obtained by Japanese vs. western psychometricians do not differ significantly. These studies indicate an average population IQ of 107 in Japan. Given the genetic similarity between Han Chinese and Japanese it is very unlikely that the average IQ of the Han Chinese is anywhere near as low as 95.
    , @Anon
    China still suffers the effect of a lousy diet. You can't raise high IQ children on a lot of rice and very little meat protein. If they ate a western diet, they'd have a higher IQ.
    , @Joe Wong
    It is puzzling why the West insists that Chinese is smarter and with higher IQ, then they try very hard to disprove what they created and said themselves. Is it an expression of inferiority complex or an anxiety of the chicken coming home to roost for what they have done to the world in the past?
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  4. @Read David Brock's Memo
    There have not been any truly representative studies of Chinese IQ or intelligence. Too many people are still excluded from studies conducted in the mainland, often because of government interference, the Chinese tendency toward self-serving embellishment, or simply the inability to obtain a representative sample due to the still extremely disorderly nature of Chinese society. The most laughable case is the Shanghai PISA results -- not only not representative of China, but not even close to representative of Shanghai. Studies done using ethnically Chinese people in other countries produce results that are obviously not representative of the entirety of the Chinese ethnicity, as those individuals very often must meet criteria positively correlated with intelligence, ambition, and financial prowess to make their way out of China. Having worked as a factory inspector and teacher in China, I personally doubt the average IQ for the entire Chinese population is over 95 -- and that is after having taught in very good schools (i.e., expensive, well-known schools to which rich parents send their kids) in the dark blue regions on the map.

    Come, come. There have been dozens of studies, many of which have been reproduced in The Unz Review.

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  5. The strongly cultural desire in China for a boy and the abortion of female fetuses, meant that by the late-1990s, young males massively out-numbered females in China, said Lynn“.

    Dr. Lynn was misinformed. The missing girls, like the Thai boys in the cave, are safe and well. It happened like this:

    In preparation for the 2021 centennial, education officials pledged to complete Mao’s work to liberate women by achieving gender balance in China’s schools and universities (they achieved it in 2018) and in the process discovered thirty million ‘missing’ girls. The Education Ministry had carefully counted girls’ enrollment and graduation rates in 2016 and researchers[1] John Kennedy compared the Ministry’s figures to the previous, 2010 census,

    People think 30 million girls are missing from the population. That’s the population of California–and they think they’re just gone! Most people are using a demographic explanation to say that abortion or infanticide are the reasons girls don’t show up in the census and that they don’t exist. But we find there’s a political explanation. The point of contention is the interaction between the central state’s capacity to influence local officials and the willingness of local officials to implement central policies, especially unpopular policies. We find that millions of unreported female births ‘appear’ in older cohorts [school enrollment years], and this also reflects a cultural shift regarding the value of girls in China. The ‘preference for sons’ cultural argument suggests that parents see sons as necessary for elderly care and contributions to family income while daughters are viewed as a burden. However, scholars suggest that over the last few decades, and especially since the introduction of economic reforms, daughters have contributed more to their natal families (i.e., increased their value). Still, the 1990, 2000 and 2010 censuses show that unreported male births are overwhelmingly registered between the ages of one and ten years old but that the vast majority of children registered after the age of ten are females. This implies an administrative bias towards sons whereby they are registered earlier than daughters, rather than a strict son preference (i.e., fewer daughters)”.

    Kennedy interviewed a farmer who introduced his elder daughter and son by name but referred to his middle daughter as ‘the non-existent one,’ “He told us that his first daughter was registered but that when his second child, a daughter, was born they did not register her and instead waited to have another child. The third child was a boy and they registered him as the second child,” Kennedy said. To keep the peace in their villages officials, often blood relatives, turned a blind eye to children born outside Family Planning limits and left them unreported. Though the government relaxed the rural one-child policy in the 1980s, Kennedy found that village-level enforcement had already bypassed it. The Heavens were high, the Emperor far away and thirty-million girls were where they should be: in school. Today, more girls than boys graduate from university and, when data is normalized for job position and seniority, gender and wage gaps almost disappear.

    As for “The torch of civilization” may well pass to China, but it will continue to get dimmer and dimmer and very little new fuel will be added to it. The torch’s bearer will slide into an increasingly authoritarian dictatorship—as happens to relatively low IQ societies—and the light of civilization will go out“?

    That’s a pretty bold statement about a 3,000 year old civilization that is currently getting smarter every year, on its way to a potential national IQ of 112 (which at least one province has reached).

    According to NIH Director Francis Collins, China leads the world in genomics, “If you ask me where is tit’s not in the United States. It is in Shenzhen, China, at BGI”. BGI is involved in raising the national IQ by identifying genetic clusters in thousands of geniuses so parents can choose their smartest embryos. The service will probably launch in 2019. See Steve Hsu[2], who works on the project.  Meanwhile, China leads the world in most of the hard sciences and nearly all the applied technologies and they’re pulling away. No need for panic yet.

    And if authoritarian governments happen to relatively low IQ societies (like Germany in 1933?), we might ponder this:

    A truly authoritarian leader would have the sole power to:
    – declare war unilaterally and frequently;
    – issue 300,000 national security letters, administrative subpoenas with gag orders that enjoin recipients from ever divulging they’ve been served;
    – control information at all times than any monarch in history under the National Security and Emergency Preparedness Communications Functions.
    –torture, kidnap and assassinate anyone anywhere at will.

    Personal freedom in an authoritarian state would be limited by
    – secretly banning 50,000 people from flying and refusing requests for an explanation
    – imprisoning 2,000,000 people witout trial
    – executing 2,000 people each year prior to arrest.

    In a real an authoritarian state there would be
    – warrantless surveillance of private phone and email conversations by the NSA;
    – SWAT team raiding homes;
    – shootings of unarmed citizens by police;
    – harsh punishment of schoolchildren in the name of zero tolerance;
    – endless wars;
    – out-of-control spending;
    – militarized police;
    –roadside strip searches;
    – roving TSA sweeps;
    – privatized prisons with a profit incentive for jailing Americans;
    – fusion centers that collect and disseminate data on citizens’ private transactions;
    – militarized agencies with stockpiles of ammunition

    No Chinese leader, including Mao, has ever had one such power. The US President has and exercises all of them. Regularly.

    [1] Delayed Registration and Identifying the “Missing Girls” in China. The China Quarterly, Volume 228. December 2016, pp. 1018-1038
    [2] https://youtu.be/62jZENi1ed8. See also https://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.3421.pdf

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    • Replies: @Per/Norway
    well said.
    , @m___
    To Welton and Roberts both,

    The core argument against dysgenic China is the not accounted for female offspring is the point made in the comment? This goes against the article, being mute on this, and using the imbalance between girls and boys as an argument for a dysgenic China.

    Two things, is this so, are Welton's sources wrong, partly wrong. Secondly, does this in itself account for the annihilation of the dysgenic factor, is this rather a neutral phenomenon, and in case, the "later accounted for" girls do not exist, does this make China dysgenic, or again is this a neutral factor, a one of more variables, what we suspect.

    We await you both to elaborate on this. Unz.com at it's best for once.

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  6. Yee says:

    If Westerners want to know the IQ of the Chinese poor, they can take samples of 3rd or above generation North America Chinese.

    Most of them are descendants of the poorest people of China. Only the most desperate poor sold themselves for overseas slave labour back then.

    Anyway, IQ is Pseudo-science. It serve no purpose except making people feel good about themselves, or feel bad. China don’t run routine IQ test at school.

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    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Patricus
    Yee is probably right about IQ studies being pseudo science. When I was a student in the 1970s the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores. It was then believed there were 10 or 12 different aptitudes including spoken language, written language, math, spatial reasoning and others. Somehow the single IQ score, which apparently explains everything, came back to popularity. Would these scores be allowed as evidence in a court of law?
    , @Lin
    I'm completely at ease if not comfortable when Chinese IQs are rated low or at least not as high as thought. BTW, I usually don't like talking about IQ because no matter how people babble on IQs of this or that group, fact is the IQ advocates can't change the reality. I live in HK and I've relatives who are highly successful as well as relatives whose lifestyles are similar to the ghetto NAMs in US...
    1)One of them was raised in resettlement slum without household toilets and he got to rush 3 floors down to take a leak. Some 10 yrs ago, he was interviewed by local TV in the capacity of a senior executive of a financial institution.
    2)Another one went to jail for committing gang related crimes
    3)My youngest brother studied so hard that he scared my mom because he studied non-stop after supper well passed mid-night and refused to go to bed
    .............
    There's an ancient Chinese motto--Lack of talents can be compensated by hard work勤能补拙.
    ......
    Actually 'low Chinese IQ' or 'Chinese aren't innovative' polemics are actually what China needs to counter 'yellow peril/sinphobia' propaganda
    , @Daniel Chieh
    IQ has limited utility, so as long as it is understood as "best catch all metric" rather than some transcendent value. You wouldn't use VO2 volume to determine the winner of every sport either, would you?
    , @ChrisS
    IQ tests are well designed and like it or not, test scores show high test, re-test reliability. A person doesn't have to be tested in all areas, general intelligence is revealed, when completing a test which has a reasonable number of items. Do not underestimate studies in this domain just because they may bring to surface unpleasant or undesired conclusions.
    A great discussion on the topic is between JOrdan Peterson and Dr. Richard Haier.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY4sShDt9to
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  7. @Godfree Roberts
    The strongly cultural desire in China for a boy and the abortion of female fetuses, meant that by the late-1990s, young males massively out-numbered females in China, said Lynn".

    Dr. Lynn was misinformed. The missing girls, like the Thai boys in the cave, are safe and well. It happened like this:

    In preparation for the 2021 centennial, education officials pledged to complete Mao's work to liberate women by achieving gender balance in China’s schools and universities (they achieved it in 2018) and in the process discovered thirty million ‘missing’ girls. The Education Ministry had carefully counted girls’ enrollment and graduation rates in 2016 and researchers[1] John Kennedy compared the Ministry’s figures to the previous, 2010 census,


    People think 30 million girls are missing from the population. That's the population of California–and they think they're just gone! Most people are using a demographic explanation to say that abortion or infanticide are the reasons girls don't show up in the census and that they don't exist. But we find there’s a political explanation. The point of contention is the interaction between the central state's capacity to influence local officials and the willingness of local officials to implement central policies, especially unpopular policies. We find that millions of unreported female births ‘appear’ in older cohorts [school enrollment years], and this also reflects a cultural shift regarding the value of girls in China. The ‘preference for sons’ cultural argument suggests that parents see sons as necessary for elderly care and contributions to family income while daughters are viewed as a burden. However, scholars suggest that over the last few decades, and especially since the introduction of economic reforms, daughters have contributed more to their natal families (i.e., increased their value). Still, the 1990, 2000 and 2010 censuses show that unreported male births are overwhelmingly registered between the ages of one and ten years old but that the vast majority of children registered after the age of ten are females. This implies an administrative bias towards sons whereby they are registered earlier than daughters, rather than a strict son preference (i.e., fewer daughters)”.
     
    Kennedy interviewed a farmer who introduced his elder daughter and son by name but referred to his middle daughter as ‘the non-existent one,’ “He told us that his first daughter was registered but that when his second child, a daughter, was born they did not register her and instead waited to have another child. The third child was a boy and they registered him as the second child,” Kennedy said. To keep the peace in their villages officials, often blood relatives, turned a blind eye to children born outside Family Planning limits and left them unreported. Though the government relaxed the rural one-child policy in the 1980s, Kennedy found that village-level enforcement had already bypassed it. The Heavens were high, the Emperor far away and thirty-million girls were where they should be: in school. Today, more girls than boys graduate from university and, when data is normalized for job position and seniority, gender and wage gaps almost disappear.

    As for “The torch of civilization” may well pass to China, but it will continue to get dimmer and dimmer and very little new fuel will be added to it. The torch’s bearer will slide into an increasingly authoritarian dictatorship—as happens to relatively low IQ societies—and the light of civilization will go out"?

    That's a pretty bold statement about a 3,000 year old civilization that is currently getting smarter every year, on its way to a potential national IQ of 112 (which at least one province has reached).

    According to NIH Director Francis Collins, China leads the world in genomics, “If you ask me where is tit’s not in the United States. It is in Shenzhen, China, at BGI”. BGI is involved in raising the national IQ by identifying genetic clusters in thousands of geniuses so parents can choose their smartest embryos. The service will probably launch in 2019. See Steve Hsu[2], who works on the project.  Meanwhile, China leads the world in most of the hard sciences and nearly all the applied technologies and they're pulling away. No need for panic yet.

    And if authoritarian governments happen to relatively low IQ societies (like Germany in 1933?), we might ponder this:

    A truly authoritarian leader would have the sole power to:
    – declare war unilaterally and frequently;
    – issue 300,000 national security letters, administrative subpoenas with gag orders that enjoin recipients from ever divulging they’ve been served;
    – control information at all times than any monarch in history under the National Security and Emergency Preparedness Communications Functions.
    –torture, kidnap and assassinate anyone anywhere at will.

    Personal freedom in an authoritarian state would be limited by
    – secretly banning 50,000 people from flying and refusing requests for an explanation
    – imprisoning 2,000,000 people witout trial
    – executing 2,000 people each year prior to arrest.

    In a real an authoritarian state there would be
    – warrantless surveillance of private phone and email conversations by the NSA;
    – SWAT team raiding homes;
    – shootings of unarmed citizens by police;
    – harsh punishment of schoolchildren in the name of zero tolerance;
    – endless wars;
    – out-of-control spending;
    – militarized police;
    –roadside strip searches;
    – roving TSA sweeps;
    – privatized prisons with a profit incentive for jailing Americans;
    – fusion centers that collect and disseminate data on citizens’ private transactions;
    – militarized agencies with stockpiles of ammunition

    No Chinese leader, including Mao, has ever had one such power. The US President has and exercises all of them. Regularly.


    [1] Delayed Registration and Identifying the “Missing Girls” in China. The China Quarterly, Volume 228. December 2016, pp. 1018-1038
    [2] https://youtu.be/62jZENi1ed8. See also https://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.3421.pdf

    well said.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jgarbo
    Never the "one child" rule. Engineering Prof in Guangzhou, old friend, explained he could have as many children as he liked BUT the govt would only pay - everything - for the first. After that he would paying full price for subsequent children. He and his wife took the one child route, a charming, bright son. There was never a "One child" - abort the next - policy. More Western propaganda?
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  8. Patricus says:
    @Yee
    If Westerners want to know the IQ of the Chinese poor, they can take samples of 3rd or above generation North America Chinese.

    Most of them are descendants of the poorest people of China. Only the most desperate poor sold themselves for overseas slave labour back then.

    Anyway, IQ is Pseudo-science. It serve no purpose except making people feel good about themselves, or feel bad. China don't run routine IQ test at school.

    Yee is probably right about IQ studies being pseudo science. When I was a student in the 1970s the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores. It was then believed there were 10 or 12 different aptitudes including spoken language, written language, math, spatial reasoning and others. Somehow the single IQ score, which apparently explains everything, came back to popularity. Would these scores be allowed as evidence in a court of law?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kratoklastes

    the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores

     

    ... in much the same way that the theology 'profession' was dismissive of heliocentrism.

    That's not much of a point against IQ: if anything, being dismissed by the worse-than-placebo innumerate witch-doctors of anything starting with 'psych', is a decent half-point in its favour.

    History is replete with groups of charlatans who pretend to have insight into something, who disliked shit that went against their particular pulled-out-of-someone's-ass dogma.
    , @Triumph104
    In the United States, the single IQ score is used to determine whether someone who has received the death penalty can be executed. People with an IQ of roughly 70 or below cannot be executed.
    , @Anonymous
    IQ as I understand it, is actually an extremely reliable tool for predicting life outcomes. It isn’t everything, but it seems to measure certain things with a very high degree of accuracy. It seems to stand up to scrutiny much better than the the theories of its detractors.
    , @Realityphile
    Patricus wrote: Yee is probably right about IQ studies being pseudo science.

    No, he's not right. This was debated and settled among psychometric psychologists long ago. Read Jensen's comprehensive _Bias in Mental Testing_ from 1981. None of the arguments against IQ tests have gotten any better since then, just True Believers of the egalitarian cult rehashing the same old nonsense.

    >When I was a student in the 1970s the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores.

    Well, duh, the sixties and seventies were the pinnacle of intolerant egalitarian fanaticism. Dissenting professors had to be accompanied by security guards when they stepped onto campus because of the death threats.

    > It was then believed there were 10 or 12 different aptitudes including spoken language, written language, math, spatial reasoning and others.

    They told you a politically acceptable half truth. What they left out, but knew even then, is that these aptitudes are all positively correlated because a large part of each of these aptitudes is explained by a single common factor--the general factor or general intelligence or Spearman's coefficient.

    >Somehow the single IQ score, which apparently explains everything, came back to popularity.

    It is called bowing to reality. Among scientists with expertise in the field, the IQ score and its importance never went away--but many academics consider this information to be too dangerous for the hoi polloi to be exposed to. You might call it "Spearman's dangerous idea."

    >Would these scores be allowed as evidence in a court of law?

    They already are allowed. Murder convicts are sometimes spared the death penalty on the ground that their IQ test score is "too low" to consider them fully responsible for their actions.
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  9. The real authoritarian state sounds like the United States. Of course, you high IQers will blame it on liberals or some other braindead winger chimera.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CrisS
    You must be kidding! United States the real authoritarian state? Have you heard of N Korea where people are like zombies, treated as subhumans not to mention that they lack everything needed to live a decent life. Cuba is still socialist, so tell me a successful socialist country? Venezuela - where people die of hunger and leave the country in large groups? Have you read Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago? That would help you understand what an authoritarian state is.
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  10. @Read David Brock's Memo
    There have not been any truly representative studies of Chinese IQ or intelligence. Too many people are still excluded from studies conducted in the mainland, often because of government interference, the Chinese tendency toward self-serving embellishment, or simply the inability to obtain a representative sample due to the still extremely disorderly nature of Chinese society. The most laughable case is the Shanghai PISA results -- not only not representative of China, but not even close to representative of Shanghai. Studies done using ethnically Chinese people in other countries produce results that are obviously not representative of the entirety of the Chinese ethnicity, as those individuals very often must meet criteria positively correlated with intelligence, ambition, and financial prowess to make their way out of China. Having worked as a factory inspector and teacher in China, I personally doubt the average IQ for the entire Chinese population is over 95 -- and that is after having taught in very good schools (i.e., expensive, well-known schools to which rich parents send their kids) in the dark blue regions on the map.

    And have you looked at the white students in the US and Europe?

    If you think that China is 95, then whites must be even lower

    And the PISA was not limited to Shanghai they did 12 provinces, and even the poorest provinces dominated

    Several PISA administrators from Europe surveyed poor chinese schools with no heating in extremely poor regions and administered tests personally

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-17585201

    >Mr Schleicher says the unpublished results reveal that pupils in other parts of China are also performing strongly.

    >”Even in rural areas and in disadvantaged environments, you see a remarkable performance.”

    >In particular, he said the test results showed the “resilience” of pupils to succeed despite tough backgrounds – and the “high levels of equity” between rich and poor pupils.

    And in addition poor Vietnam also beats white countries in PISA

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can't come up with their own. It seems they have difficulty understanding what they steal from us.

    Vietnam? Come on. It's a shithole.
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  11. @Hbd investor
    And have you looked at the white students in the US and Europe?

    If you think that China is 95, then whites must be even lower

    And the PISA was not limited to Shanghai they did 12 provinces, and even the poorest provinces dominated

    Several PISA administrators from Europe surveyed poor chinese schools with no heating in extremely poor regions and administered tests personally

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-17585201

    >Mr Schleicher says the unpublished results reveal that pupils in other parts of China are also performing strongly.

    >"Even in rural areas and in disadvantaged environments, you see a remarkable performance."

    >In particular, he said the test results showed the "resilience" of pupils to succeed despite tough backgrounds - and the "high levels of equity" between rich and poor pupils.

    And in addition poor Vietnam also beats white countries in PISA

    And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can’t come up with their own. It seems they have difficulty understanding what they steal from us.

    Vietnam? Come on. It’s a shithole.

    Read More
    • Agree: Stan d Mute
    • Replies: @Another German Reader
    A shithole, which as a lower-middle income country beats all Latin-American, Arab, SSA and its' richer neighbours and India and is already on par with poorer European countries in all international education comparisons.

    https://i.imgur.com/tYl9c8H.png

    The shithole with the fastest growing middle-class in the world.
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  12. The idea that East Asians are less creative is laughable

    The paper linked showing east asians are less creative is pure malarkey, and the author simply states that asians are more collective and conservative and then uses that for an explanation for why the Europeans were the first to industrialize.

    The ability to invent, is highly dependent on factors such as a demand to invent, and the resources and time needed.

    Typically pre industrial scientific advances were done by the idle rich aristocracy who lived lives of luxury as land owners who collected rent, because they were the only ones who could afford education and had the wealth to buy scientific equipment not because they were more creative and intelligent than the peasants

    They had the money to order craftsman to build things like test tubes, and order peasants to collect various rocks and chemicals

    If we look at say cooking, say chicken.

    The chinese had far more numerous recipes to boil, steam, deepfry, bake, grill, smoke

    Or how about swords?

    European swords

    Meanwhile the chinese had numerous types of swords

    Not only did they have the stiff ones used by historical europe, they made scimitars, a flexible whiplike sword (dao), tiger hook swords, and the 9 ring sword

    So now you are probably asking, if the chinese are indeed creative then why didn’t they industrialize?

    This has all been explained by Karl Marx and by Thanos

    In order to do science, you need capital accumulation

    The aristocracy historically did science because they had capital

    China never had capital accumulation, since all excess capital went to serve a ever growing population

    Europe on the other hand had The black death, which led to a smaller population that inherited wealth from a larger population, the black death ended the middle ages and started the Renaissance

    This is the same reason why Thanos wanted to wipe out half of earths population, so the surviving half would have plenty of resources and be able to pursue and advance science rather than science stagnating due to capital and resources being split amongst a massive population.

    Read More
    • Replies: @WHAT
    >muh Thanos analogies
    Ahahahaha, nice one! Oh wait, you`re serious.

    And sword bullshit is just that. European swords are all function over form, and would be more than sufficient to cut through any oriental katana folded over 9000 times.
    , @Phille
    Then why does Japan with a much higher IQ, bigger population and higher r&d investment lag behind the Western European countries when it comes to scientific output and GDP?
    , @Eric Novak
    The entire modern world was created by Europeans. What wealth did Issac Newton or Gauss or Tesla need for their genius? None.
    , @Anon
    As someone who has worked in Japanese companies and who has lived in Japan for decades -- and loves Japan -- I have slowly come over to the opinion that Japanese are less creative than Americans and Europeans.

    When I say this what I mean is that given the same environment and circumstances, Japanese are, on average, less creative, and the variance of creativity may also be somewhat less. That doesn't mean that they are not creative at all, nor does it mean that there are no highly creative Japanese. It simply means that they are lower down on the scale of creativity.

    There's also the problem that even when there is some creativity, it is harmed by the accretionism or collective organization, of including everyone's ideas in a project, rather than ruthlessly pruning out the bad ideas. And you'd never just recognize that one person is a genius and let him take over a project (yes, I'm sure there are exceptions).

    In the area of user interface, it's done by engineers, and then added on to my marketers, so it ends up a big mess. Your television remote control was designed in Japan, as well as its onscreen interface. When they try to simplify, they do it by reorganizing things to be more intuitive, but by adding more stuff, but making it cute looking, or by eliminating features without sufficient thought.

    Examples: Apple vs Sony. Japanese car companies design cars in Calilfornia, with staff from the U.S. and Europe. And HQ still manages to screw stuff up. Things in Japan tend to be big. There are maybe five or ten insurance companies, and they are big. There are thousands in the U.S., and they are often staffed by just a few people, marketers from bigger companies who split offf, who use the many outsourcing services available to such entrepreneurs to design policies, function as a call center, and so on. So the U.S. will invent pet health insurance, and Japan will copy it.

    Again, I don't think that the creativity deficit is that huge, but it's like IQ: small differences in the mean and variance have large effects at the right end of the scale. I used to think that this was untrue and racist, but now I believe it. And I still love Japan, and I think that there is an upside and downside to everything, and it may in the long run produce a better society if a country is mostly collective, but brings in a few proven creative people from America and Europe to join with the locals on projects, or sets up creative studios abroad.
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  13. >And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can’t come up with their own

    China leads the world in trapped ion quantum computers, photonic quantum computers, has the world’s first quantum satellite, world’s first superconducting tokomak (only 2 in the world south korea has the other one but has not been able to beat the chinese one), has built the submarine with the world’s deepest dive.

    There are numerous other chinese scientific achievements

    Pick up any science journal and look at all the chinese names.

    It’s funny how layman who never bothered to pick up a science journal, somehow believes that they are qualified to determine who is stealing from who, and who has made contributions to what

    >Vietnam? Come on. It’s a shithole

    Yet they dominate Europeans in the Pisa which was my entire point

    Wealthy Europeans with the best healthcare, education and living standards can’t beat a bunch of partially east asians 3rd worlders in reading, science and math

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    The Chinese are notorious cheaters.

    Who would want to live in Vietnam besides the Vietnamese?

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians.
    , @WHAT
    Kek. Wake me up when they are finally able to at least reproduce MTBF or spool-up characteristics of a russian engine design made 30 years ago(and they have those things in metal for decades now) or build any kind of supercomp using indigenous specialists instead of western mercenaries. Or at least an actually quiet sub. Or a complex ship that is not a full-on copypaste. Or at least something that does not explode spontaneously.

    Or when they stop driving over their own children.

    , @Phille
    "Yet they dominate Europeans in the Pisa which was my entire point"

    But they actually don't. If you look at the native's scores Germany is basically on Japan's level and Switzerland on Korea's. It is only third world immigration that is bringing the European scores down. And I'm not even sure that the "natives" don't contain kids with an immigration background two generations back.
    , @Karl
    12 Hbd Investor > Typically pre industrial scientific advances were done by the idle rich aristocracy who lived lives of luxury as land owners who collected rent, because they were the only ones who could afford education and had the wealth to buy scientific equipment not because they were more creative and intelligent than the peasants


    i'll mention that to Faraday's parents
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  14. @Hbd investor
    >And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can’t come up with their own

    China leads the world in trapped ion quantum computers, photonic quantum computers, has the world's first quantum satellite, world's first superconducting tokomak (only 2 in the world south korea has the other one but has not been able to beat the chinese one), has built the submarine with the world's deepest dive.

    There are numerous other chinese scientific achievements

    Pick up any science journal and look at all the chinese names.

    It's funny how layman who never bothered to pick up a science journal, somehow believes that they are qualified to determine who is stealing from who, and who has made contributions to what

    >Vietnam? Come on. It’s a shithole

    Yet they dominate Europeans in the Pisa which was my entire point

    Wealthy Europeans with the best healthcare, education and living standards can't beat a bunch of partially east asians 3rd worlders in reading, science and math

    The Chinese are notorious cheaters.

    Who would want to live in Vietnam besides the Vietnamese?

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Before copying the West, Japan copied everything from China. Japanese civilization is based on Chinese civilization. By your logic, the Chinese should be more intelligent than the Japanese, since the Japanese copied from both China and the West, whereas China copies from the West.
    , @Seraphim
    @Who would want to live in Vietnam besides the Vietnamese?

    The French loved it very much. So much so that they did not want to leave it.

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  15. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition Chi-Commies! (especially under a Lance Weldon post).

    It’s a sad, sad state of affairs on unz.com when attila-the-hen writes by far the sanest comment so far.

    I will say that Godfree Robert’s statement about current Police State USSA is accurate, but you write, Godfree, as if there is no such thing as history. I’ve read your crap before, and you are nothing but Pro-Mao, pro-Commie, and pro-China, with no earthly idea of the dark side. Good luck over there. No matter how much you think you fit in, you’ll always be a white ghost over there, and if (hopefully not) there are really bad relations to come, you’d better watch your 6. China cult-revs go a lot farther than the current US one has, as Americans will remain armed. I am exhibit A.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Random Smartaleck

    [Godfree Roberts is] nothing but Pro-Mao, pro-Commie, and pro-China...
     
    He may be God-free, but he's certainly not god-free.
    , @ger
    Moron?
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  16. Medvedev says:

    Hard to believe that 1.4bln Chinese have the same average IQ as more homogeneous Koreans (106) or Japanese (105). If many provinces, judging by the map, have lower IQ than other provinces with hundreds of millions of people have higher IQ than Japanese and Koreans.

    Other Chinese neighbors have lower IQ: Thailand 91, Vietnam 94, Cambodia 90. I would expect IQ in different Chinese provinces to fall between 91 and 106. And the average IQ to be somewhere between 98 and 100.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    People in the western Chinese provinces show the effect of the hiving off of their best and brightest to the eastern coastal region. The Imperial Examination system has for several centuries been drawing those with the best verbals skills away from the provinces and giving them jobs on the east coast. Do it for enough generations, and the provincial west will end up with exactly what testing shows, namely a lower overall verbal ability than the east.

    None of this is any surprise considering China's history. Ancient China very likely had a more evenly spread set of IQs than it does today.
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  17. WHAT says:
    @Hbd investor
    The idea that East Asians are less creative is laughable

    The paper linked showing east asians are less creative is pure malarkey, and the author simply states that asians are more collective and conservative and then uses that for an explanation for why the Europeans were the first to industrialize.

    The ability to invent, is highly dependent on factors such as a demand to invent, and the resources and time needed.

    Typically pre industrial scientific advances were done by the idle rich aristocracy who lived lives of luxury as land owners who collected rent, because they were the only ones who could afford education and had the wealth to buy scientific equipment not because they were more creative and intelligent than the peasants

    They had the money to order craftsman to build things like test tubes, and order peasants to collect various rocks and chemicals

    If we look at say cooking, say chicken.

    The chinese had far more numerous recipes to boil, steam, deepfry, bake, grill, smoke

    Or how about swords?

    European swords

    https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/sword_types_overview.gif

    Meanwhile the chinese had numerous types of swords

    Not only did they have the stiff ones used by historical europe, they made scimitars, a flexible whiplike sword (dao), tiger hook swords, and the 9 ring sword

    So now you are probably asking, if the chinese are indeed creative then why didn’t they industrialize?

    This has all been explained by Karl Marx and by Thanos

    In order to do science, you need capital accumulation

    The aristocracy historically did science because they had capital

    China never had capital accumulation, since all excess capital went to serve a ever growing population

    Europe on the other hand had The black death, which led to a smaller population that inherited wealth from a larger population, the black death ended the middle ages and started the Renaissance

    This is the same reason why Thanos wanted to wipe out half of earths population, so the surviving half would have plenty of resources and be able to pursue and advance science rather than science stagnating due to capital and resources being split amongst a massive population.

    >muh Thanos analogies
    Ahahahaha, nice one! Oh wait, you`re serious.

    And sword bullshit is just that. European swords are all function over form, and would be more than sufficient to cut through any oriental katana folded over 9000 times.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hbd investor
    >muh Thanos analogies

    >Ahahahaha, nice one! Oh wait, you`re serious.

    Numerous scholars have written about the Malthusian Trap, the writers at marvel did not create a new economic theory. The general consensus amongst economists is that high population equals low GDP per capita due to declining returns on labor and division of capital and natural resource constraints, while killing half the population increases GDP per capita and concentrates capital.

    The general consensus amongst historians and economists is that the black death gave rise to the Renaissance which led to Industrialization.

    http://www1.umassd.edu/euro/resources/worldeconomy/1.pdf

    Escaping from the Malthusian Population Trap in Northwestern Europe

    >Second, income per capita is negatively related to population size due to a diminishing return to labor. The classic example for this is the Black Death of the 14th century. As European populations declined by approximately one-third to half their level before the plague, wages rose since here were far fewer workers available for a similar level of technology, resources and fixed capital.

    >And sword bullshit is just that. European swords are all function over form, and would be more than sufficient to cut through any oriental katana folded over 9000 times.

    The historical ignorance is real, the Chinese and Japanese both had straight swords similar to European swords.

    The main point was that the Europeans created mainly two types of swords curved swords sabre’s and straight swords but they never created anything similar to tiger hook swords, nor did it ever occur to the Europeans to add rings to their swords (Chinese 9 ringed sword)

    This is strong evidence that on average the Chinese are more creative when given the same material metal and the ability to shape said metal into different forms, the Chinese were able to create everything the European mind created and more.

    And these swords were not decorative, the tiger hook sword was effective with multiple killing edges and the hook could grab onto other weapons and shields. The 9 ringed sword was a training weapon that the user wielded during training to receive feedback on proper strikes. A properly swung sword would cause all the rings to make certain sounds.

    Likewise we see the same pattern in almost everything, the European mind could only conceive boiling noodles while the Chinese conceived stir frying, steaming and even deep frying (seafood bird nest)

    Likewise even kitchen utensils both groups created spoons, knives and forks but the Europeans never conceived chopsticks. Which are useful for eating anything that you do not want pierced.
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  18. WHAT says:
    @Hbd investor
    >And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can’t come up with their own

    China leads the world in trapped ion quantum computers, photonic quantum computers, has the world's first quantum satellite, world's first superconducting tokomak (only 2 in the world south korea has the other one but has not been able to beat the chinese one), has built the submarine with the world's deepest dive.

    There are numerous other chinese scientific achievements

    Pick up any science journal and look at all the chinese names.

    It's funny how layman who never bothered to pick up a science journal, somehow believes that they are qualified to determine who is stealing from who, and who has made contributions to what

    >Vietnam? Come on. It’s a shithole

    Yet they dominate Europeans in the Pisa which was my entire point

    Wealthy Europeans with the best healthcare, education and living standards can't beat a bunch of partially east asians 3rd worlders in reading, science and math

    Kek. Wake me up when they are finally able to at least reproduce MTBF or spool-up characteristics of a russian engine design made 30 years ago(and they have those things in metal for decades now) or build any kind of supercomp using indigenous specialists instead of western mercenaries. Or at least an actually quiet sub. Or a complex ship that is not a full-on copypaste. Or at least something that does not explode spontaneously.

    Or when they stop driving over their own children.

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    • Replies: @Hbd investor
    >Kek. Wake me up when they are finally able to at least reproduce MTBF or spool-up characteristics of a russian engine design made 30 years ago(and they have those things in metal for decades now) or build any kind of supercomp using indigenous specialists instead of western mercenaries. Or at least an actually quiet sub. Or a complex ship that is not a full-on copypaste. Or at least something that does not explode spontaneously.

    The J-20 runs on Chinese made engines (WS-10B) superior to the engines on the SU-35 the AL-41F

    The AL-41F (iz 117)is Russia’s most advanced engine and is used on the SU-35 and the SU-57 prototypes

    And the Sunway supercomputer is indigenous

    The WS-15 is even more powerful, and is already being set up for mass production with the first one to be delivered by next year. The WS-15 is superior to the engines on the F-22
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  19. m___ says:
    @Godfree Roberts
    The strongly cultural desire in China for a boy and the abortion of female fetuses, meant that by the late-1990s, young males massively out-numbered females in China, said Lynn".

    Dr. Lynn was misinformed. The missing girls, like the Thai boys in the cave, are safe and well. It happened like this:

    In preparation for the 2021 centennial, education officials pledged to complete Mao's work to liberate women by achieving gender balance in China’s schools and universities (they achieved it in 2018) and in the process discovered thirty million ‘missing’ girls. The Education Ministry had carefully counted girls’ enrollment and graduation rates in 2016 and researchers[1] John Kennedy compared the Ministry’s figures to the previous, 2010 census,


    People think 30 million girls are missing from the population. That's the population of California–and they think they're just gone! Most people are using a demographic explanation to say that abortion or infanticide are the reasons girls don't show up in the census and that they don't exist. But we find there’s a political explanation. The point of contention is the interaction between the central state's capacity to influence local officials and the willingness of local officials to implement central policies, especially unpopular policies. We find that millions of unreported female births ‘appear’ in older cohorts [school enrollment years], and this also reflects a cultural shift regarding the value of girls in China. The ‘preference for sons’ cultural argument suggests that parents see sons as necessary for elderly care and contributions to family income while daughters are viewed as a burden. However, scholars suggest that over the last few decades, and especially since the introduction of economic reforms, daughters have contributed more to their natal families (i.e., increased their value). Still, the 1990, 2000 and 2010 censuses show that unreported male births are overwhelmingly registered between the ages of one and ten years old but that the vast majority of children registered after the age of ten are females. This implies an administrative bias towards sons whereby they are registered earlier than daughters, rather than a strict son preference (i.e., fewer daughters)”.
     
    Kennedy interviewed a farmer who introduced his elder daughter and son by name but referred to his middle daughter as ‘the non-existent one,’ “He told us that his first daughter was registered but that when his second child, a daughter, was born they did not register her and instead waited to have another child. The third child was a boy and they registered him as the second child,” Kennedy said. To keep the peace in their villages officials, often blood relatives, turned a blind eye to children born outside Family Planning limits and left them unreported. Though the government relaxed the rural one-child policy in the 1980s, Kennedy found that village-level enforcement had already bypassed it. The Heavens were high, the Emperor far away and thirty-million girls were where they should be: in school. Today, more girls than boys graduate from university and, when data is normalized for job position and seniority, gender and wage gaps almost disappear.

    As for “The torch of civilization” may well pass to China, but it will continue to get dimmer and dimmer and very little new fuel will be added to it. The torch’s bearer will slide into an increasingly authoritarian dictatorship—as happens to relatively low IQ societies—and the light of civilization will go out"?

    That's a pretty bold statement about a 3,000 year old civilization that is currently getting smarter every year, on its way to a potential national IQ of 112 (which at least one province has reached).

    According to NIH Director Francis Collins, China leads the world in genomics, “If you ask me where is tit’s not in the United States. It is in Shenzhen, China, at BGI”. BGI is involved in raising the national IQ by identifying genetic clusters in thousands of geniuses so parents can choose their smartest embryos. The service will probably launch in 2019. See Steve Hsu[2], who works on the project.  Meanwhile, China leads the world in most of the hard sciences and nearly all the applied technologies and they're pulling away. No need for panic yet.

    And if authoritarian governments happen to relatively low IQ societies (like Germany in 1933?), we might ponder this:

    A truly authoritarian leader would have the sole power to:
    – declare war unilaterally and frequently;
    – issue 300,000 national security letters, administrative subpoenas with gag orders that enjoin recipients from ever divulging they’ve been served;
    – control information at all times than any monarch in history under the National Security and Emergency Preparedness Communications Functions.
    –torture, kidnap and assassinate anyone anywhere at will.

    Personal freedom in an authoritarian state would be limited by
    – secretly banning 50,000 people from flying and refusing requests for an explanation
    – imprisoning 2,000,000 people witout trial
    – executing 2,000 people each year prior to arrest.

    In a real an authoritarian state there would be
    – warrantless surveillance of private phone and email conversations by the NSA;
    – SWAT team raiding homes;
    – shootings of unarmed citizens by police;
    – harsh punishment of schoolchildren in the name of zero tolerance;
    – endless wars;
    – out-of-control spending;
    – militarized police;
    –roadside strip searches;
    – roving TSA sweeps;
    – privatized prisons with a profit incentive for jailing Americans;
    – fusion centers that collect and disseminate data on citizens’ private transactions;
    – militarized agencies with stockpiles of ammunition

    No Chinese leader, including Mao, has ever had one such power. The US President has and exercises all of them. Regularly.


    [1] Delayed Registration and Identifying the “Missing Girls” in China. The China Quarterly, Volume 228. December 2016, pp. 1018-1038
    [2] https://youtu.be/62jZENi1ed8. See also https://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.3421.pdf

    To Welton and Roberts both,

    The core argument against dysgenic China is the not accounted for female offspring is the point made in the comment? This goes against the article, being mute on this, and using the imbalance between girls and boys as an argument for a dysgenic China.

    Two things, is this so, are Welton’s sources wrong, partly wrong. Secondly, does this in itself account for the annihilation of the dysgenic factor, is this rather a neutral phenomenon, and in case, the “later accounted for” girls do not exist, does this make China dysgenic, or again is this a neutral factor, a one of more variables, what we suspect.

    We await you both to elaborate on this. Unz.com at it’s best for once.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    Need it be said that Unz.com is always at its best? It is inconsistent because scribblers, like your humble servant, are human.

    Alas, I am not qualified to address your point. My speciality is our misconceptions about China, a fertile field I promise you.
    , @FKA Max
    I have looked into these matters and came to the conclusion that the most dysgenic factor in Chinese culture is their "Social Darwinist" tendency and history:


    So if we consider selection for male wealth as a proxy for selection for intelligence, once again, it’s been stronger in Africans due to the polygynous nature of the traditional societies there and the increased reproductive success of wealthy men in polygynous societies.
     
    This is the wrong conclusion to draw, in my opinion, and precisely the mistake the IQ-ist/Social Darwinist crowd has made. They, in most cases, equate greater wealth with higher intelligence. I believe collective/societal/national/per capita wealth/GDP/productivity can be a good and useful proxy for the average intelligence of large populations, especially for nations/societies which are not natural resource exporters, e.g. oil, gas, etc., or tax havens, etc., but individual wealth can be a bit of a misleading proxy for intelligence, when wealth, wages, titles, political offices, business/family connections etc. can be inherited, etc., which is a common practice, especially in more corrupt and “traditional” societies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
    [...]

    It seems that very harsh and “Social Darwinist” environments and cultures do not necessarily select for intelligence exclusively, or maybe not even predominately, but that they mostly select for risk taking, aggressiveness, ruthlessness, i.e., psychopathic and rather anti-social traits.
    [...]
    So the less chauvinistic/“macho” a race or culture is the more likely it is to select for intelligence and low(er) testosterone, i.e., lower aggressiveness, and against the “warrior gene,” i.e., psychopathy.
     
    – http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207
     
    - https://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2071354

    Godfree Roberts is correct that the gender imbalance in China is not as severe as it was initially believed to be (see graph towards the bottom of this comment), nevertheless Chinese culture is rather patriarchal as opposed to being matriarchal "This male-heavy gender imbalance is not seen in some emerging nations, such as Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines, partly because these countries have matriarchal cultures. However, the demographic changes in India, China and Vietnam, which account for about 60% of Asia’s population, have a big impact on the rest of the region." - http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207

    So, as I stated above, in my opinion, "Social Darwinist" Chinese/Confucian culture/society does not select for intelligence and creativity, but rather for conformity and ambition, and IQ tests, in my opinion, are a better measure/test of the latter than the former: "I think what is important to reiterate is that IQ tests seem to measure and predict certain things very accurately [...] but they do ironically/paradoxically only seem to test “intelligence” to a limited extent" - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/piffers-equation-further-updated/#comment-2301523


    [I wonder though. Why has higher intelligence not disappeared then?]

    It is still being selected for, but the how exactly is important and difficult to figure out. This is just speculation on my part so far, but I suspect and my research has led me to believe, that with greater emancipation of women selection for intelligence rather than aggressiveness, etc. actually increases. This could be another explanation for the Flynn Effect; greater emancipation and protection of women, which enables them to select their mates by traits they prefer and like, like intelligence and agreeableness rather than aggressiveness and violence/anti-social behavior.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/tomster-on-marriage/#comment-1838477 and http://www.unz.com/jthompson/womens-brains/#comment-1848017

    https://asia.nikkei.com/var/site_cache/storage/images/node_43/node_51/2017/201704/20170412t/finding-china-s-missing-girls-web/6499304-2-eng-GB/finding-china-s-missing-girls-web_article_main_image.png

    Source: https://www.unz.com/article/investigating-a-great-though-flawed-investigator/#comment-2440069

    There was an interesting Twitter comment on this article on the VDare Twitter page, which I agree with:

    @witchysloot
    Replying to @vdare

    East Asian high IQ is basically high functioning autism tbh
    8:45 AM - 26 Aug 2018

    https://twitter.com/witchysloot/status/1033742344963719171

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  20. @m___
    To Welton and Roberts both,

    The core argument against dysgenic China is the not accounted for female offspring is the point made in the comment? This goes against the article, being mute on this, and using the imbalance between girls and boys as an argument for a dysgenic China.

    Two things, is this so, are Welton's sources wrong, partly wrong. Secondly, does this in itself account for the annihilation of the dysgenic factor, is this rather a neutral phenomenon, and in case, the "later accounted for" girls do not exist, does this make China dysgenic, or again is this a neutral factor, a one of more variables, what we suspect.

    We await you both to elaborate on this. Unz.com at it's best for once.

    Need it be said that Unz.com is always at its best? It is inconsistent because scribblers, like your humble servant, are human.

    Alas, I am not qualified to address your point. My speciality is our misconceptions about China, a fertile field I promise you.

    Read More
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  21. @attilathehen
    And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can't come up with their own. It seems they have difficulty understanding what they steal from us.

    Vietnam? Come on. It's a shithole.

    A shithole, which as a lower-middle income country beats all Latin-American, Arab, SSA and its’ richer neighbours and India and is already on par with poorer European countries

    [MORE]
    in all international education comparisons.

    The shithole with the fastest growing middle-class in the world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.
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  22. @WHAT
    >muh Thanos analogies
    Ahahahaha, nice one! Oh wait, you`re serious.

    And sword bullshit is just that. European swords are all function over form, and would be more than sufficient to cut through any oriental katana folded over 9000 times.

    >muh Thanos analogies

    >Ahahahaha, nice one! Oh wait, you`re serious.

    Numerous scholars have written about the Malthusian Trap, the writers at marvel did not create a new economic theory. The general consensus amongst economists is that high population equals low GDP per capita due to declining returns on labor and division of capital and natural resource constraints, while killing half the population increases GDP per capita and concentrates capital.

    The general consensus amongst historians and economists is that the black death gave rise to the Renaissance which led to Industrialization.

    http://www1.umassd.edu/euro/resources/worldeconomy/1.pdf

    Escaping from the Malthusian Population Trap in Northwestern Europe

    >Second, income per capita is negatively related to population size due to a diminishing return to labor. The classic example for this is the Black Death of the 14th century. As European populations declined by approximately one-third to half their level before the plague, wages rose since here were far fewer workers available for a similar level of technology, resources and fixed capital.

    >And sword bullshit is just that. European swords are all function over form, and would be more than sufficient to cut through any oriental katana folded over 9000 times.

    The historical ignorance is real, the Chinese and Japanese both had straight swords similar to European swords.

    The main point was that the Europeans created mainly two types of swords curved swords sabre’s and straight swords but they never created anything similar to tiger hook swords, nor did it ever occur to the Europeans to add rings to their swords (Chinese 9 ringed sword)

    This is strong evidence that on average the Chinese are more creative when given the same material metal and the ability to shape said metal into different forms, the Chinese were able to create everything the European mind created and more.

    And these swords were not decorative, the tiger hook sword was effective with multiple killing edges and the hook could grab onto other weapons and shields. The 9 ringed sword was a training weapon that the user wielded during training to receive feedback on proper strikes. A properly swung sword would cause all the rings to make certain sounds.

    Likewise we see the same pattern in almost everything, the European mind could only conceive boiling noodles while the Chinese conceived stir frying, steaming and even deep frying (seafood bird nest)

    Likewise even kitchen utensils both groups created spoons, knives and forks but the Europeans never conceived chopsticks. Which are useful for eating anything that you do not want pierced.

    Read More
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  23. @WHAT
    Kek. Wake me up when they are finally able to at least reproduce MTBF or spool-up characteristics of a russian engine design made 30 years ago(and they have those things in metal for decades now) or build any kind of supercomp using indigenous specialists instead of western mercenaries. Or at least an actually quiet sub. Or a complex ship that is not a full-on copypaste. Or at least something that does not explode spontaneously.

    Or when they stop driving over their own children.

    >Kek. Wake me up when they are finally able to at least reproduce MTBF or spool-up characteristics of a russian engine design made 30 years ago(and they have those things in metal for decades now) or build any kind of supercomp using indigenous specialists instead of western mercenaries. Or at least an actually quiet sub. Or a complex ship that is not a full-on copypaste. Or at least something that does not explode spontaneously.

    The J-20 runs on Chinese made engines (WS-10B) superior to the engines on the SU-35 the AL-41F

    The AL-41F (iz 117)is Russia’s most advanced engine and is used on the SU-35 and the SU-57 prototypes

    And the Sunway supercomputer is indigenous

    The WS-15 is even more powerful, and is already being set up for mass production with the first one to be delivered by next year. The WS-15 is superior to the engines on the F-22

    Read More
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  24. @Another German Reader
    A shithole, which as a lower-middle income country beats all Latin-American, Arab, SSA and its' richer neighbours and India and is already on par with poorer European countries in all international education comparisons.

    https://i.imgur.com/tYl9c8H.png

    The shithole with the fastest growing middle-class in the world.

    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Escher
    And on what basis do you say that Vietnam has peaked?
    , @Stan d Mute

    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.
     
    There’s a real slant to most of these comments isn’t there? This should be nipped in the bud before the whole thing slopes downward. Just zip it I say. Quit dragon down the level of discourse and make it more celestial.
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  25. Lin says:
    @Yee
    If Westerners want to know the IQ of the Chinese poor, they can take samples of 3rd or above generation North America Chinese.

    Most of them are descendants of the poorest people of China. Only the most desperate poor sold themselves for overseas slave labour back then.

    Anyway, IQ is Pseudo-science. It serve no purpose except making people feel good about themselves, or feel bad. China don't run routine IQ test at school.

    I’m completely at ease if not comfortable when Chinese IQs are rated low or at least not as high as thought. BTW, I usually don’t like talking about IQ because no matter how people babble on IQs of this or that group, fact is the IQ advocates can’t change the reality. I live in HK and I’ve relatives who are highly successful as well as relatives whose lifestyles are similar to the ghetto NAMs in US…
    1)One of them was raised in resettlement slum without household toilets and he got to rush 3 floors down to take a leak. Some 10 yrs ago, he was interviewed by local TV in the capacity of a senior executive of a financial institution.
    2)Another one went to jail for committing gang related crimes
    3)My youngest brother studied so hard that he scared my mom because he studied non-stop after supper well passed mid-night and refused to go to bed
    ………….
    There’s an ancient Chinese motto–Lack of talents can be compensated by hard work勤能补拙.
    ……
    Actually ‘low Chinese IQ’ or ‘Chinese aren’t innovative’ polemics are actually what China needs to counter ‘yellow peril/sinphobia’ propaganda

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kratoklastes

    without household toilets and he got to rush 3 floors down to take a leak
     
    See, this I don't understand.

    Why not piss in a bucket or bottle and empty it when it's convenient?

    Confession: In the late 80s I was profoundly influenced by the post-recovery toilet habits of a good friend who was incapacitated for several months in his early 20s as a result of a t12-L1 spinal fracture. After his recovery, Scott kept a urinal bottle - for the simple expedient of not having to get up to piss in the night. Seemed like a brilliant idea, and I adopted it - with the additional constraint that the bottle had to have a lid. Fucking ROCKS.
     
    I know - eeew, TMI gross.
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  26. No, I’m just a frequent business traveller in East-/Southeast-Asia.

    The Vietnamese came out of devastating civil war and 10 years of failed socio-economic policies and now are already ahead of many other developing countries.

    Vietnam in 2018 is where China was in 2000 or S-Korea/Taiwan in 1978.

    If you live in Europe, come to this years’ Paris Auto Show and see the first sign of Vietnamese grand ambition:

    (Yes, they are getting help from the Italians & Germans, but any master was a student once.)

    Even with moderate IQ, ambition & hard work can carry you very far: Indonesian medium-tank prototype:

    But both Indonesians and Viets have cohesive societies. Something the clannish Arabs, tribal SS-Africans and the stratified Latinos don’t have.

    Soon the West will join the club of mediocrity.

    Read More
    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    If this was meant for me, focus on Germany. You need to expel blacks/Asians/Muslims/Jews from your country.
    , @The Scalpel
    "devastating civil war " LOL

    Are you referring to the French colonization followed by the US attempts at colonization using /agent Orange/carpet bombing/village massacres/napalm etc.

    sort of like the Syrian "civil" war
    , @Karl
    26 Another German Reader > No, I’m just a frequent business traveller in East-/Southeast-Asia

    no one can show me a foreign businessman in Vietnam or Philippines, who sleeps alone at night
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  27. FKA Max says: • Website
    @m___
    To Welton and Roberts both,

    The core argument against dysgenic China is the not accounted for female offspring is the point made in the comment? This goes against the article, being mute on this, and using the imbalance between girls and boys as an argument for a dysgenic China.

    Two things, is this so, are Welton's sources wrong, partly wrong. Secondly, does this in itself account for the annihilation of the dysgenic factor, is this rather a neutral phenomenon, and in case, the "later accounted for" girls do not exist, does this make China dysgenic, or again is this a neutral factor, a one of more variables, what we suspect.

    We await you both to elaborate on this. Unz.com at it's best for once.

    I have looked into these matters and came to the conclusion that the most dysgenic factor in Chinese culture is their “Social Darwinist” tendency and history:

    So if we consider selection for male wealth as a proxy for selection for intelligence, once again, it’s been stronger in Africans due to the polygynous nature of the traditional societies there and the increased reproductive success of wealthy men in polygynous societies.

    This is the wrong conclusion to draw, in my opinion, and precisely the mistake the IQ-ist/Social Darwinist crowd has made. They, in most cases, equate greater wealth with higher intelligence. I believe collective/societal/national/per capita wealth/GDP/productivity can be a good and useful proxy for the average intelligence of large populations, especially for nations/societies which are not natural resource exporters, e.g. oil, gas, etc., or tax havens, etc., but individual wealth can be a bit of a misleading proxy for intelligence, when wealth, wages, titles, political offices, business/family connections etc. can be inherited, etc., which is a common practice, especially in more corrupt and “traditional” societies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
    [...]

    It seems that very harsh and “Social Darwinist” environments and cultures do not necessarily select for intelligence exclusively, or maybe not even predominately, but that they mostly select for risk taking, aggressiveness, ruthlessness, i.e., psychopathic and rather anti-social traits.
    [...]
    So the less chauvinistic/“macho” a race or culture is the more likely it is to select for intelligence and low(er) testosterone, i.e., lower aggressiveness, and against the “warrior gene,” i.e., psychopathy.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207

    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2071354

    Godfree Roberts is correct that the gender imbalance in China is not as severe as it was initially believed to be (see graph towards the bottom of this comment), nevertheless Chinese culture is rather patriarchal as opposed to being matriarchal “This male-heavy gender imbalance is not seen in some emerging nations, such as Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines, partly because these countries have matriarchal cultures. However, the demographic changes in India, China and Vietnam, which account for about 60% of Asia’s population, have a big impact on the rest of the region.” – http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207

    So, as I stated above, in my opinion, “Social Darwinist” Chinese/Confucian culture/society does not select for intelligence and creativity, but rather for conformity and ambition, and IQ tests, in my opinion, are a better measure/test of the latter than the former: “I think what is important to reiterate is that IQ tests seem to measure and predict certain things very accurately [...] but they do ironically/paradoxically only seem to test “intelligence” to a limited extent”http://www.unz.com/jthompson/piffers-equation-further-updated/#comment-2301523

    [I wonder though. Why has higher intelligence not disappeared then?]

    It is still being selected for, but the how exactly is important and difficult to figure out. This is just speculation on my part so far, but I suspect and my research has led me to believe, that with greater emancipation of women selection for intelligence rather than aggressiveness, etc. actually increases. This could be another explanation for the Flynn Effect; greater emancipation and protection of women, which enables them to select their mates by traits they prefer and like, like intelligence and agreeableness rather than aggressiveness and violence/anti-social behavior.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/tomster-on-marriage/#comment-1838477 and http://www.unz.com/jthompson/womens-brains/#comment-1848017

    Source: https://www.unz.com/article/investigating-a-great-though-flawed-investigator/#comment-2440069

    There was an interesting Twitter comment on this article on the VDare Twitter page, which I agree with:

    @witchysloot
    Replying to @vdare

    East Asian high IQ is basically high functioning autism tbh
    8:45 AM – 26 Aug 2018

    Read More
    • Replies: @m___

    Your comment
     
    This is as close as we got over the last three months to seeing the needed mindset to make public communication (on unz.com) associative and of quality! Opening a thread to analyze the article of Welton in depth would be appropriate now, and the pages would steer away of the author - commenter gap, of author - commenter being on different intellectual levels, the bread-writing incentive diminished. Correct mistakes, rewrite, bring in meaningful variables, additional evidence, it all can be done "on-line", and give the internet quality meaning. Ultimately, who takes credit for better ideas, better theory, more insightful analysis, clearer writing is less important then authorship and ego boosting, coining, self-promoting. The "warrior gene" is indeed not very beneficial to better public understanding.

    Will get back to you concerning content. For now, could it be that the correlation between IQ and wealth - power is not so much as flawed, but simply not linear, since the association up to say 130 IQ points and relative dominance in society at large seems to break there-after?
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  28. females tend to sexually select for status because doing so, under evolutionary conditions

    Where do people get the idea that females select for anything? Soap operas?

    Through most of known history, parents did the selecting.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Although the choice of a marriage partner was surely substantially codetermined by family interests and concerns in older European societies, we must not overlook the fact that, given the relatively large age gap between generations, the bride’s or bridegroom’s parents would no longer be alive in a high percentage of marriages. In addition, being employed as a servant took many young people far away from home. We can generally assume that a particularly high degree of self-determination in choosing a partner was to be found in the lower levels of society, where the age at marriage was especially high. The principle of marriage by consent, endorsed by the Christian Church, enhanced the trend to increased self-determination that was linked to marriage later in life. The Western Church’s concept in the High Middle Ages of marriage as a sacrament was based on the view that each partner offers the sacrament to the other. The idea of consent is an essential, fundamental principle of the conjugal family, where the relationship between the couple is central, not ties of descent. What rested on the principle of consent — seen in the long term — was the ideal of marrying for love, but the obverse did as well: the particular vulnerability of a type of relationship based on personal inclination and the freedom to decide for onself.” - https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/but-what-about-the-english/ Archived link: http://archive.is/FpJnj


    This ties in with my previous comment http://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2486057 , and this excellent blog post by Mr. Sailer:

    Conformity and Cousin Marriage

    www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/

    Commenter Robert Hume writes:

    It has occurred to me that the reason why some groups of Europeans seem to have greater creativity then equally intelligent Asians may be due to their method of finding mates for marriage.

    Family arranged marriages, such as in much of Asia and much of the Middle East look for indicators of social approval and success within the current social milieu such as doing well on achievement tests which are socially coupled to success in life.

    On the other hand, in historical England for example, the female chooses the male, and, in this case, going back to Darwin, the males may exhibit a broad spectrum of capabilities; some very maladaptive and some extremely adaptive. Those that are extremely adaptive have more children.

    I wonder if there is a greater variance in male IQ in historical England than in China.
     
    Leaving aside plain IQ, I suspect that love marriages select for a wider variety of personality types and other traits in offspring than do arranged marriages, with the historic English predilection for young lovers selecting their own mates (e.g., in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet) perhaps leading to the famous English appreciation for individualism and eccentricity. [...]
     
    I commented on the blog post:


    The English seem to have best recognized the importance and power of humor as an easily testable proxy for identifying intelligence. Giving young women more say in the selection of their mate is likely highly eugenic. No other culture that I know of has a more subtle, sophisticated, i.e., highly developed/advanced sense of humor and humor culture than the English
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/#comment-1834845

    Joking aside, British really do have unique sense of humour

    Transatlantic survey of identical twins shows our taste for biting satire and withering one-liners is in the genes

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html
    [...]
    However, negative humour – teasing and ridicule, as well as more offensive, racist or sexist forms of humour, together with self-disparaging humour – appeared to be genetically linked only in Britain.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/#comment-1835042
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  29. In a letter in the very last print edition of American Renaissance, the classicist E Christian Kopff slammed Prof Lynn for having defended polygamy as eugenic for the Bushmen of southern Africa. It’s worth reading.

    If the Bushmen themselves have ever produced anything worth reading, do please inform us.

    Read More
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  30. @Another German Reader
    No, I'm just a frequent business traveller in East-/Southeast-Asia.

    The Vietnamese came out of devastating civil war and 10 years of failed socio-economic policies and now are already ahead of many other developing countries.

    Vietnam in 2018 is where China was in 2000 or S-Korea/Taiwan in 1978.

    If you live in Europe, come to this years' Paris Auto Show and see the first sign of Vietnamese grand ambition:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSCbrzoY-I

    (Yes, they are getting help from the Italians & Germans, but any master was a student once.)

    Even with moderate IQ, ambition & hard work can carry you very far: Indonesian medium-tank prototype:

    https://i.imgur.com/JE26fWl.jpg

    But both Indonesians and Viets have cohesive societies. Something the clannish Arabs, tribal SS-Africans and the stratified Latinos don't have.

    Soon the West will join the club of mediocrity.

    If this was meant for me, focus on Germany. You need to expel blacks/Asians/Muslims/Jews from your country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Another German Reader
    expelling Jews:

    Forget about it! Adolf gave them an unassailable armour.

    expelling Black:

    Children of Black US GIs and German women - not possible as they are citizen from the start.

    SS-African could be much better regulated - especially the recent illegal arrivals from Med.

    SS-Africans, who came as diplomat/businessmen/college-students are not troublemakers.

    expelling Muslims:

    The former guest-workers and their (grand)children are partially integrated, if their background was from urban regions of home country.

    The ones from the rural regions of Anatolia & MENA are not integrated, but a high portion has received citizenship in 1980s/1990s. Only a dictatorship could deport them.

    The recent arrivals from the Med will probably deported, when the Merkel era ends in 2021.

    expelling other migrants:

    There are migrants from Vietnam, the Caucasus, former Yugoslavia and Latin-America. Most are relatively integrated and/or are in low numbers and mostly keep their heads down. Troublesome migrants from these groups are already being deported.

    In the end: Germany/W-Europe will be diverse even if stop all migration right away. The trouble are jihadists with citizenship and SS-Africa's surplus sons in the next century.
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  31. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Reg Cæsar

    females tend to sexually select for status because doing so, under evolutionary conditions
     
    Where do people get the idea that females select for anything? Soap operas?

    Through most of known history, parents did the selecting.

    Although the choice of a marriage partner was surely substantially codetermined by family interests and concerns in older European societies, we must not overlook the fact that, given the relatively large age gap between generations, the bride’s or bridegroom’s parents would no longer be alive in a high percentage of marriages. In addition, being employed as a servant took many young people far away from home. We can generally assume that a particularly high degree of self-determination in choosing a partner was to be found in the lower levels of society, where the age at marriage was especially high. The principle of marriage by consent, endorsed by the Christian Church, enhanced the trend to increased self-determination that was linked to marriage later in life. The Western Church’s concept in the High Middle Ages of marriage as a sacrament was based on the view that each partner offers the sacrament to the other. The idea of consent is an essential, fundamental principle of the conjugal family, where the relationship between the couple is central, not ties of descent. What rested on the principle of consent — seen in the long term — was the ideal of marrying for love, but the obverse did as well: the particular vulnerability of a type of relationship based on personal inclination and the freedom to decide for onself.”https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/but-what-about-the-english/ Archived link: http://archive.is/FpJnj

    This ties in with my previous comment http://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2486057 , and this excellent blog post by Mr. Sailer:

    Conformity and Cousin Marriage

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/

    [MORE]

    Commenter Robert Hume writes:

    It has occurred to me that the reason why some groups of Europeans seem to have greater creativity then equally intelligent Asians may be due to their method of finding mates for marriage.

    Family arranged marriages, such as in much of Asia and much of the Middle East look for indicators of social approval and success within the current social milieu such as doing well on achievement tests which are socially coupled to success in life.

    On the other hand, in historical England for example, the female chooses the male, and, in this case, going back to Darwin, the males may exhibit a broad spectrum of capabilities; some very maladaptive and some extremely adaptive. Those that are extremely adaptive have more children.

    I wonder if there is a greater variance in male IQ in historical England than in China.

    Leaving aside plain IQ, I suspect that love marriages select for a wider variety of personality types and other traits in offspring than do arranged marriages, with the historic English predilection for young lovers selecting their own mates (e.g., in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet) perhaps leading to the famous English appreciation for individualism and eccentricity. [...]

    I commented on the blog post:

    The English seem to have best recognized the importance and power of humor as an easily testable proxy for identifying intelligence. Giving young women more say in the selection of their mate is likely highly eugenic. No other culture that I know of has a more subtle, sophisticated, i.e., highly developed/advanced sense of humor and humor culture than the English

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/#comment-1834845

    Joking aside, British really do have unique sense of humour

    Transatlantic survey of identical twins shows our taste for biting satire and withering one-liners is in the genes

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html

    [...]
    However, negative humour – teasing and ridicule, as well as more offensive, racist or sexist forms of humour, together with self-disparaging humour – appeared to be genetically linked only in Britain.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/#comment-1835042

    Read More
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  32. However, they note that scientific innovators tend to combine very high IQ with an optimally low level of collectivism, low social anxiety and low fearfulness of the new. In other words, they have high “Openness-Intellec t”, as psychologists term this trait. This psychological profile means that they can think outside the box and don’t care about the offence to vested interests which their new idea will almost certainly result in.

    Sounds like Elon Musk.

    Read More
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  33. Jim says:
    @Read David Brock's Memo
    There have not been any truly representative studies of Chinese IQ or intelligence. Too many people are still excluded from studies conducted in the mainland, often because of government interference, the Chinese tendency toward self-serving embellishment, or simply the inability to obtain a representative sample due to the still extremely disorderly nature of Chinese society. The most laughable case is the Shanghai PISA results -- not only not representative of China, but not even close to representative of Shanghai. Studies done using ethnically Chinese people in other countries produce results that are obviously not representative of the entirety of the Chinese ethnicity, as those individuals very often must meet criteria positively correlated with intelligence, ambition, and financial prowess to make their way out of China. Having worked as a factory inspector and teacher in China, I personally doubt the average IQ for the entire Chinese population is over 95 -- and that is after having taught in very good schools (i.e., expensive, well-known schools to which rich parents send their kids) in the dark blue regions on the map.

    It would be desirable to have more representative data on the IQ of the Chinese population. However there is extensive data on the IQ of the Japanese population and the results obtained by Japanese vs. western psychometricians do not differ significantly. These studies indicate an average population IQ of 107 in Japan. Given the genetic similarity between Han Chinese and Japanese it is very unlikely that the average IQ of the Han Chinese is anywhere near as low as 95.

    Read More
    • Replies: @m___

    It would be desirable to have more representative data on the IQ of the Chinese population.
     
    Large samples, the biology of genetics, in a "few" years, will be indeed the more conclusive argument.
    , @Nawyr
    Basic population similarity isn't an indicator of shared intelligence. The genes coding for intelligence are relatively few and far inbetween -- a population can be genetically close to another (autosomally) and still be far more intelligent.
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  34. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @attilathehen
    The Chinese are notorious cheaters.

    Who would want to live in Vietnam besides the Vietnamese?

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians.

    Before copying the West, Japan copied everything from China. Japanese civilization is based on Chinese civilization. By your logic, the Chinese should be more intelligent than the Japanese, since the Japanese copied from both China and the West, whereas China copies from the West.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    I know this. And yet, only Japan has a first world, democratic country in Asia. China is a shithole.
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  35. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20110813170529/http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/~bbpowell/web/china.htm

    The contributions of the Han weigh enormously into the accomplishment of civilization, though are almost unknown, even to the Chinese themselves, who think of their great contributions as merely “The Four Inventions:” gunpowder, the compass, paper, and printing. But Joseph Needham of Cambridge University, who died in 1995, the greatest sinologist of his generation, spent his long life assembling evidence for the other extraordinary Chinese achievements in science and technology, published in his monumental Science and Civilization in China, of which nine volumes and several supplements have appeared. According to Needham’s work, the Han also invented the row cultivation of crops, the iron plow, and the horse collar, which transformed European agriculture when it came West in 700 A.D., 1,000 years after its invention in China. They invented the seed-drill, cast iron, and discovered how to make steel from cast iron. They invented the double-acting piston bellows, the crank handle, deep drilling for natural gas, the belt drive, water power, the suspension bridge, the essentials of the steam engine, the segmental arch bridge, lacquer, strong beer, petroleum and natural gas as fuel, the wheelbarrow, sliding calipers, and the fishing reel. The Chinese invention of the stirrup revolutionized warfare when it reached Europe in the 5th century A.D. and made possible the heavily armed knight, the crusades, and medieval romance. Of course the Chinese invented porcelain, a high-fired special clay–sometimes translucent–which rings when struck, always the most valued ceramic in the world. The Chinese invented the umbrella, biological pest control, matches, and chess, though most think the game came from India. They invented brandy and whiskey (which we could never seem to find), the mechanical clock, and systems of movable type seven hundred years before Gutenberg. They invented playing-cards and paper money, the spinning-wheel, the decimal system, the kite, and first experimented with manned flight with kites, made the first relief maps and invented the rudder. The Chinese first found a place for zero, invented negative numbers, and learned how to extract higher roots. They first worked with decimal fractions, used algebra in geometry, refined the value of pi, and defined “Pascal’s” triangle of binomial coefficients. The paddle-wheel boat is a Chinese invention too, as is land sailing, the canal pound-lock, batten sails and staggered masts, multiple masts, leeboards, and watertight compartments in ships. Already in the Shang dynasty (1800-1200 B.C.) the Chinese had invented the large tuned bell and tuned drums. Daoist priests discovered hermetically sealed research laboratories and first understood musical timbre and equal temperament in music (how to make the circle of fifths correspond with the octave, so that music can be modulated from key to key). In warfare the Chinese remained for long transcendent, inventing poison gas, smoke bombs, tear gas, the crossbow, flame-throwers, flares, grenades, metal cased bombs, land and sea-mines, and the rocket, both single and multistage. They invented the fire stick and the first true gun. The Chinese first understood how to diagnose diabetes through urine analysis and described the circulation of the blood 1,800 years before it was understood in the West. The Chinese discovered the solar wind, made the first Mercator map-projection, and recognized sunspots as solar phenomena. They understood circadian rhythms in the human body in the 2nd century B.C., invented the helicopter rotor and propeller, and the seismograph, and described the first law of motion 2,000 years before Newton. Only a European could discover and explain to Chinese their own past, because in China the past is not made by men striving for perfection, but is a moral pageant illustrating the universal state’s approach to and decline from heavenly favor. In China there has never been, and can never be, a scientific historiography.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    Gold box!
    , @Logan
    Thanks for posting. For at least 2000 years the Chinese were more creative than anybody else, possibly more creative than everybody else put together.

    But it appears that this long tradition of creativity more or less ended sometime around 1500, roughly when Europeans began their spectacular explosion of creativity and then expansion into the world. The drop in Chinese creativity/inventiveness was not only in relation to Europe, but apparently in relation to that of its own past. Absolute, not just relative. Never have heard a logical explanation why.

    If China was indeed more creative than Europe for 2000 years and then stopped being so, which seems to be the case, it seems unlikely the explanation is genetic or biological.

    BTW, the author of the quote is inaccurate about the rise of the knight occurring only because of the Chinese-invented stirrup. Heavy cavalry, with both horse and rider armored, charging with the lance as the primary weapon, were around long before the stirrup. Which, admittedly, probably made heavy cavalry a good deal more effective.

    Should also note that while China invented many of these things, it often did not exploit them nearly as well as others.

    , @m___
    Indeed.
    , @Escher
    The works of Socrates and Plato were also ghost written by a Chinese philosopher.
    , @Seraphim
    Thanks God, someone has finally found Needham. It might have been a very long search. His 'Science and Civilisation in China' is around since 1985 (and continued after). 'The Shorter Science and Civilisation: An abridgement of Joseph Needham's original text' was issued between 1980- 1995.
    Or maybe not, probably a lot of the 'I know better than you' commentators where not even born. It is true that reading it requires a level of education above elementary school.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    They invented ... systems of movable type seven hundred years before Gutenberg

     

    Proof? There are museums in Europe exhibiting old books that show that there must have been printing presses there. Where are the Chinese books? With a seven hundred year head start and more population, they should have multiples more artifacts from the Renaissance era and earlier.

    Photos of old books:


    Gutenberg Bible

     



    Renaissance: printing press
    Sibyllenbuch fragment ...Gutenberg Bible ...The Giant Bible of Mainz ... 31-Line Letter of Indulgence ... Cicero's De oratore ... Buch der Natur... Gutenberg Bible

     

    ...


    They invented playing-cards

     

    Search for "oldest playing cards" gets a deck from 1470s Netherlands.

    Maybe the climate of China just isn't suitable for the preservation of artifacts.


    Chinese discovered the solar wind

     

    greatwall-rockets.jpg
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  36. Corvinus says:
    @Anonymous
    https://web.archive.org/web/20110813170529/http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/~bbpowell/web/china.htm

    The contributions of the Han weigh enormously into the accomplishment of civilization, though are almost unknown, even to the Chinese themselves, who think of their great contributions as merely “The Four Inventions:” gunpowder, the compass, paper, and printing. But Joseph Needham of Cambridge University, who died in 1995, the greatest sinologist of his generation, spent his long life assembling evidence for the other extraordinary Chinese achievements in science and technology, published in his monumental Science and Civilization in China, of which nine volumes and several supplements have appeared. According to Needham’s work, the Han also invented the row cultivation of crops, the iron plow, and the horse collar, which transformed European agriculture when it came West in 700 A.D., 1,000 years after its invention in China. They invented the seed-drill, cast iron, and discovered how to make steel from cast iron. They invented the double-acting piston bellows, the crank handle, deep drilling for natural gas, the belt drive, water power, the suspension bridge, the essentials of the steam engine, the segmental arch bridge, lacquer, strong beer, petroleum and natural gas as fuel, the wheelbarrow, sliding calipers, and the fishing reel. The Chinese invention of the stirrup revolutionized warfare when it reached Europe in the 5th century A.D. and made possible the heavily armed knight, the crusades, and medieval romance. Of course the Chinese invented porcelain, a high-fired special clay--sometimes translucent--which rings when struck, always the most valued ceramic in the world. The Chinese invented the umbrella, biological pest control, matches, and chess, though most think the game came from India. They invented brandy and whiskey (which we could never seem to find), the mechanical clock, and systems of movable type seven hundred years before Gutenberg. They invented playing-cards and paper money, the spinning-wheel, the decimal system, the kite, and first experimented with manned flight with kites, made the first relief maps and invented the rudder. The Chinese first found a place for zero, invented negative numbers, and learned how to extract higher roots. They first worked with decimal fractions, used algebra in geometry, refined the value of pi, and defined “Pascal’s” triangle of binomial coefficients. The paddle-wheel boat is a Chinese invention too, as is land sailing, the canal pound-lock, batten sails and staggered masts, multiple masts, leeboards, and watertight compartments in ships. Already in the Shang dynasty (1800-1200 B.C.) the Chinese had invented the large tuned bell and tuned drums. Daoist priests discovered hermetically sealed research laboratories and first understood musical timbre and equal temperament in music (how to make the circle of fifths correspond with the octave, so that music can be modulated from key to key). In warfare the Chinese remained for long transcendent, inventing poison gas, smoke bombs, tear gas, the crossbow, flame-throwers, flares, grenades, metal cased bombs, land and sea-mines, and the rocket, both single and multistage. They invented the fire stick and the first true gun. The Chinese first understood how to diagnose diabetes through urine analysis and described the circulation of the blood 1,800 years before it was understood in the West. The Chinese discovered the solar wind, made the first Mercator map-projection, and recognized sunspots as solar phenomena. They understood circadian rhythms in the human body in the 2nd century B.C., invented the helicopter rotor and propeller, and the seismograph, and described the first law of motion 2,000 years before Newton. Only a European could discover and explain to Chinese their own past, because in China the past is not made by men striving for perfection, but is a moral pageant illustrating the universal state’s approach to and decline from heavenly favor. In China there has never been, and can never be, a scientific historiography.
     

    Gold box!

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  37. @Talha
    dysgenic: tending to promote survival of or reproduction by less well-adapted individuals (such as the weak or diseased) especially at the expense of well-adapted individuals (such as the strong or healthy) the dysgenic effect of war

    So high intelligence seems to be dysgenic...survival of the fittest doesn't play nice or by our rules.

    Peace.

    I don’t think that’s the conclusion to draw (even tongue-in-cheek); intelligence concentrates upwards, and furthermore regression to the mean is being exposed for the sham propaganda pseudoscience that we all anticipated it would be.

    There’s a difference between traits that select for numerical success (which yields more players on the field, each with about-average skills), and traits that select for greater relative success (a smaller number of players, all of whom have elite skills).

    I was in the throes of making an analogy with the vanishingly-small proportion of queens in bee (and ant) populations, and the persistence of queen bees/ants – but frankly that’s a bit of a shit analogy … since the queens do all the reproducing for the hive/colony.

    Fuck it – let’s go there.

    Bees (and ants) are almost all neutered females; the exceptions are drones (stingless males who do not work and whose sole role is to mate with the queen) and queens.

    Each colony of ~10K-20K bees has 1 queen (which makes a queen rarer than an individual human with an IQ of about 160) and 200-ish drones (making drones as rare as a human with an IQ of about 135).

    They persist – despite their rarity – because they have a niche. There is no ‘eugenic’ pressure for the number of queens or drones to expand, but an expansion of their numbers would not be obviously dysgenic (a new queen generally will mean the establishment of another colony).

    Humans with elite cognitive ability have the most obvious and persistent niche in human civilisation; they are the originators of all innovation, which augments the productivity of all humans (they need slightly-less-elite humans to operationalise their innovations: really smart people have almost zero commercial nous).

    Cognitively-elite humans will keep that niche until we develop Artificial Super-Intelligence (ASI) – in a decade or so – at which point it all becomes moot because reproduction will be irrelevant.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    Let us look at Derbyshire's "over-classes" or more commonly what are referred to as "market-dominant minorities"-

    In the US, these are purportedly Jews.

    In Southeast Asia, these are unarguably Fuji Chinese.

    In the LA ghetto, it is Koreans.

    In Latin America, it was a small number of Basque emigrants from the Spanish-France border. This includes Castro, Pinochet.

    So this is nothing new and of course China, like the US, is run by a thin sliver of East Coast while Turks in Western China are wholly barbarians.
    , @Talha
    I get your analogy with the drones (and it is a good one). The one issue is that the humans with high IQ don't seem to pass along their specific genetic material while the drones do plenty of it (as you pointed out). So while those drones (in their niche) are adapted to propagate their genes, the high IQ humans seem less adapted to. And that's great if we simply want to keep cycling out new human beings to take their spots as high-IQ ones voluntarily vacate it.

    So I agree, it's great for us as a species, not so great for them as individuals.

    Cognitively-elite humans will keep that niche until we develop Artificial Super-Intelligence (ASI)
     
    Doh! They are willingly destroying their own niche!

    Peace.
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  38. @Lin
    I'm completely at ease if not comfortable when Chinese IQs are rated low or at least not as high as thought. BTW, I usually don't like talking about IQ because no matter how people babble on IQs of this or that group, fact is the IQ advocates can't change the reality. I live in HK and I've relatives who are highly successful as well as relatives whose lifestyles are similar to the ghetto NAMs in US...
    1)One of them was raised in resettlement slum without household toilets and he got to rush 3 floors down to take a leak. Some 10 yrs ago, he was interviewed by local TV in the capacity of a senior executive of a financial institution.
    2)Another one went to jail for committing gang related crimes
    3)My youngest brother studied so hard that he scared my mom because he studied non-stop after supper well passed mid-night and refused to go to bed
    .............
    There's an ancient Chinese motto--Lack of talents can be compensated by hard work勤能补拙.
    ......
    Actually 'low Chinese IQ' or 'Chinese aren't innovative' polemics are actually what China needs to counter 'yellow peril/sinphobia' propaganda

    without household toilets and he got to rush 3 floors down to take a leak

    See, this I don’t understand.

    Why not piss in a bucket or bottle and empty it when it’s convenient?

    Confession: In the late 80s I was profoundly influenced by the post-recovery toilet habits of a good friend who was incapacitated for several months in his early 20s as a result of a t12-L1 spinal fracture. After his recovery, Scott kept a urinal bottle – for the simple expedient of not having to get up to piss in the night. Seemed like a brilliant idea, and I adopted it – with the additional constraint that the bottle had to have a lid. Fucking ROCKS.

    I know – eeew, TMI gross.

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  39. @Patricus
    Yee is probably right about IQ studies being pseudo science. When I was a student in the 1970s the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores. It was then believed there were 10 or 12 different aptitudes including spoken language, written language, math, spatial reasoning and others. Somehow the single IQ score, which apparently explains everything, came back to popularity. Would these scores be allowed as evidence in a court of law?

    the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores

    … in much the same way that the theology ‘profession’ was dismissive of heliocentrism.

    That’s not much of a point against IQ: if anything, being dismissed by the worse-than-placebo innumerate witch-doctors of anything starting with ‘psych’, is a decent half-point in its favour.

    History is replete with groups of charlatans who pretend to have insight into something, who disliked shit that went against their particular pulled-out-of-someone’s-ass dogma.

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  40. @Anonymous
    Before copying the West, Japan copied everything from China. Japanese civilization is based on Chinese civilization. By your logic, the Chinese should be more intelligent than the Japanese, since the Japanese copied from both China and the West, whereas China copies from the West.

    I know this. And yet, only Japan has a first world, democratic country in Asia. China is a shithole.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Being a "first world, democratic country" means being a feminized society run by women and homosexuals. It means a society literally devoted to worshiping the shithole. It's not a point of pride, except for gay pride.
    , @jgarbo
    Lived and worked in Japan for three years, spoke Japanese daily. Democracy does not exist in Japan, as it does not exist in US. It's a ritual. Visit China often with (Chinese) father-in-law. No "democracy" but everyone doing what they like, business, work,study, supported by "authoritarian" govt to improve the whole country. As for the US, Honduras is its future. Take a trip, bring a gun.
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  41. Anon[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @Read David Brock's Memo
    There have not been any truly representative studies of Chinese IQ or intelligence. Too many people are still excluded from studies conducted in the mainland, often because of government interference, the Chinese tendency toward self-serving embellishment, or simply the inability to obtain a representative sample due to the still extremely disorderly nature of Chinese society. The most laughable case is the Shanghai PISA results -- not only not representative of China, but not even close to representative of Shanghai. Studies done using ethnically Chinese people in other countries produce results that are obviously not representative of the entirety of the Chinese ethnicity, as those individuals very often must meet criteria positively correlated with intelligence, ambition, and financial prowess to make their way out of China. Having worked as a factory inspector and teacher in China, I personally doubt the average IQ for the entire Chinese population is over 95 -- and that is after having taught in very good schools (i.e., expensive, well-known schools to which rich parents send their kids) in the dark blue regions on the map.

    China still suffers the effect of a lousy diet. You can’t raise high IQ children on a lot of rice and very little meat protein. If they ate a western diet, they’d have a higher IQ.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    The Chinese are eating more western diet now, unfortunately they are getting a lot of Western health problems like obesity and diabetes before raising their IQ.
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  42. YEE

    You made this point about a year ago on Robert’s site and it is relevant.

    1870′s saw a huge wave of Chinese pigtails to California from Guangdong. They were laborers and career prostitutes with a few highly-feared Tongs intent on making money from vice in railroad boom towns off opium sales (Nothing changes) and gambling.

    These early Chinese immigrants were an unruly headache and nightmare for the white authorities of San Francisco. Their neglected kids ran wild in the streets, sometimes robbing whites, and at one point the police force simply went into their slums and shot Chinese street urchins.

    But over the last 100 years, they assimilated and are now firmly middle-class. They don’t even live in Chinatown anymore. They moved into the suburbs in the mid-20th century.

    The second wave of Chinese immigrants post-1965 to the US were technocrats or skilled tradespeople and had less trouble finding gainful employment. I grew up with these Chinese. Most were Cantonese or from Beijing.

    It was not until the 1990′s that the Chinese new-rich arrived. The US was more than happy to have their money.

    You are correct that Old Stock Chinese-Americans are not the real new wealthy or famous tech millionaires.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    So, you grew up in the 1980s in the black ghettoes of Detroit, the wealthy White college town of Ann Arbor 50 miles from Detroit and now you grew up among Chinese in the 1980s.

    Where did you live that you grew up among Chinese?

    Maybe you should read your old posts so you can keep your stories straight
    , @Bucky
    I’m not aware of any descendants from the 19th century Chinese migrants. As they were mainly men, most who stayed led to lonely deaths. I suppose a few did marry white women, But decades afterwards of intermarriage would make the Chinese minuscule.
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  43. Anon[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @Medvedev
    Hard to believe that 1.4bln Chinese have the same average IQ as more homogeneous Koreans (106) or Japanese (105). If many provinces, judging by the map, have lower IQ than other provinces with hundreds of millions of people have higher IQ than Japanese and Koreans.

    Other Chinese neighbors have lower IQ: Thailand 91, Vietnam 94, Cambodia 90. I would expect IQ in different Chinese provinces to fall between 91 and 106. And the average IQ to be somewhere between 98 and 100.

    People in the western Chinese provinces show the effect of the hiving off of their best and brightest to the eastern coastal region. The Imperial Examination system has for several centuries been drawing those with the best verbals skills away from the provinces and giving them jobs on the east coast. Do it for enough generations, and the provincial west will end up with exactly what testing shows, namely a lower overall verbal ability than the east.

    None of this is any surprise considering China’s history. Ancient China very likely had a more evenly spread set of IQs than it does today.

    Read More
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  44. Anonymous[789] • Disclaimer says:
    @attilathehen
    I know this. And yet, only Japan has a first world, democratic country in Asia. China is a shithole.

    Being a “first world, democratic country” means being a feminized society run by women and homosexuals. It means a society literally devoted to worshiping the shithole. It’s not a point of pride, except for gay pride.

    Read More
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  45. @Kratoklastes
    I don't think that's the conclusion to draw (even tongue-in-cheek); intelligence concentrates upwards, and furthermore regression to the mean is being exposed for the sham propaganda pseudoscience that we all anticipated it would be.

    There's a difference between traits that select for numerical success (which yields more players on the field, each with about-average skills), and traits that select for greater relative success (a smaller number of players, all of whom have elite skills).

    I was in the throes of making an analogy with the vanishingly-small proportion of queens in bee (and ant) populations, and the persistence of queen bees/ants - but frankly that's a bit of a shit analogy ... since the queens do all the reproducing for the hive/colony.

    Fuck it - let's go there.

    Bees (and ants) are almost all neutered females; the exceptions are drones (stingless males who do not work and whose sole role is to mate with the queen) and queens.

    Each colony of ~10K-20K bees has 1 queen (which makes a queen rarer than an individual human with an IQ of about 160) and 200-ish drones (making drones as rare as a human with an IQ of about 135).

    They persist - despite their rarity - because they have a niche. There is no 'eugenic' pressure for the number of queens or drones to expand, but an expansion of their numbers would not be obviously dysgenic (a new queen generally will mean the establishment of another colony).

    Humans with elite cognitive ability have the most obvious and persistent niche in human civilisation; they are the originators of all innovation, which augments the productivity of all humans (they need slightly-less-elite humans to operationalise their innovations: really smart people have almost zero commercial nous).

    Cognitively-elite humans will keep that niche until we develop Artificial Super-Intelligence (ASI) - in a decade or so - at which point it all becomes moot because reproduction will be irrelevant.

    Let us look at Derbyshire’s “over-classes” or more commonly what are referred to as “market-dominant minorities”-

    In the US, these are purportedly Jews.

    In Southeast Asia, these are unarguably Fuji Chinese.

    In the LA ghetto, it is Koreans.

    In Latin America, it was a small number of Basque emigrants from the Spanish-France border. This includes Castro, Pinochet.

    So this is nothing new and of course China, like the US, is run by a thin sliver of East Coast while Turks in Western China are wholly barbarians.

    Read More
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  46. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m curious why white people cling to the creativity angle so much when white people themselves are not so creative.

    Sure, Jews definately are. But to try and make creativity a white characteristic is absurd. Blacks are definitely more creative than whites, so are Latinos. Arabs are in a bad spot right now with Islam sucking all of the life out of them, but if you know their culture and history I would even say that Arabs are more creative than whites.

    So the only people whites are definitely more creative than are East Asians. Whoopty do. Japan being the wealthiest Asian nation has definately shown creativity, more so than most European nations except the white countries with Jews like America.

    The creativity meme is clearly just insecure white people grasping at straws to try and find something to make up for the lower iq.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    Since just about everything we see around us in the modern world was invented/created by white people, I will assume you are using some non-standard definition of the word.

    So give us your definition and then we can perhaps discuss which groups excel in it.
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  47. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker
    YEE


    You made this point about a year ago on Robert's site and it is relevant.

    1870's saw a huge wave of Chinese pigtails to California from Guangdong. They were laborers and career prostitutes with a few highly-feared Tongs intent on making money from vice in railroad boom towns off opium sales (Nothing changes) and gambling.

    These early Chinese immigrants were an unruly headache and nightmare for the white authorities of San Francisco. Their neglected kids ran wild in the streets, sometimes robbing whites, and at one point the police force simply went into their slums and shot Chinese street urchins.

    But over the last 100 years, they assimilated and are now firmly middle-class. They don't even live in Chinatown anymore. They moved into the suburbs in the mid-20th century.

    The second wave of Chinese immigrants post-1965 to the US were technocrats or skilled tradespeople and had less trouble finding gainful employment. I grew up with these Chinese. Most were Cantonese or from Beijing.

    It was not until the 1990's that the Chinese new-rich arrived. The US was more than happy to have their money.

    You are correct that Old Stock Chinese-Americans are not the real new wealthy or famous tech millionaires.

    So, you grew up in the 1980s in the black ghettoes of Detroit, the wealthy White college town of Ann Arbor 50 miles from Detroit and now you grew up among Chinese in the 1980s.

    Where did you live that you grew up among Chinese?

    Maybe you should read your old posts so you can keep your stories straight

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    My Lord you are a dumb Gen Y troll.
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  48. All these IQ predictions for the future ignore technological developments like gene editing and egg selection, which are coming soon and could be a total game-changer. The Chinese would have less moral compunctions with using such technologies also.

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  49. tamo says:

    [Using proper spacing, punctuation, and capitalization is important if you want your comments published.]

    This is another bullshit article saying Chinese are not creative. The only reason the Western culture has dominated for the last 250 years is that it’s power has ascended greatly since the Industrial Revolution. Things are going to change in this century. Before the Industrial Revolution, Europe was basically a copying and adaptive culture. The Greek civilization was NOT an ORIGINAL civilization like the Chinese civilization. The Greek civilization was heavily influenced by both Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations ( Greek myths and religion had their roots in various Mesopotamian and Egyptian beliefs).. The Greek architecture and medicine were adopted from Egypt and ancient Greeks extensively borrowed from Babylonians ( the ancestors of the present day Arabs) for it’s astronomy and mathematics and even it’s alphabet was based on the non- European Semitic Phoenician alphabet. How about Christianity which was originated among non-European Semitic people?.

    [MORE]

    As you can see, the Greeks were the biggest copycats in the ancient world. During this ancient time period, there were Confucius, Laozi, Mozi, Zhangzi, Mencius, Sun tsu, etc in China whose thoughts were at least as great as those of any Greek thinkers.Before you wrote this outdated Eurocentric trash, you should have read SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA by Joseph Needham which was picked as one of the 100 best English language non-fictions of the 20th century by Random House. I’m going to list some of many Chinese inventions and ideas that were transmitted to the backward Europe through direct, indirect, stimulus diffusion before the Industrial Revolution (some of the Chinese technologies were even transmitted at the late stage of the Industrial Revolution). China invented compass, rudder, leeboard, centerboard, multi-mast and also watertight compartments (Europe didn’t use for their ships until the late 18th century). Without adopting all these Chinese inventions, the European voyages of discovery wouldn’t have been possible. Also China invented not only paper but also printing (both woodblock and movable type about 400 years before Gutenberg who had been vey likely influenced by the movable type developments in China and Korea beforehand, developed one). Without assimilating these Chinese inventions, the SPREAD of Renaissance would have been extremely difficult. China invented not only gunpowder but also gun, cannon, rocket including multi-stage ones, both land and sea mines, bomb, even hand grenade. All these Chinese military technologies were transmitted to Europe by direct or indirect diffusion . Can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions? China even invented the mechanical clock in the 8th century with the invention of the ESCAPEMENT FOR EXACT TIME-KEEPING. This Chinese mechanical clock technology was first transmitted to the Islamic civilization then to the Moslem-occupied Spain. After assimilating the previous Chinese and Moslem mechanical clock -making technologies, in the early 14th century Europe finally developed more advanced mechanical clock, run by falling weight or springs rather than falling water or mercury. Also the first industrial revolution which is represented by mechanization and mass-production in the human history took place in Song Dynasty in the 11th century. China utilized water mills extensively for massive industrial and agricultural productions. Even the European Enlightenment was heavily influenced by many of Chinese thoughts. As a matter of fact, many Enlightenment thinkers such as Montaigne, Leibniz, Voltaire, Quesnay, etc. were enamored with the ancient Chinese idea of mandate of heaven that essentially declared that an UNFIT king should be overthrown. These European scholars thought the mandate of heaven idea was much more enlightening than the rigid and primitive European idea of the divine right of king to rule forever no matter what. There is no doubt this Chinese idea of mandate of heaven influenced the French Revolution. Also these European thinkers had a high opinion of the Chinese bureaucratic system based on meritocracy through civil service examinations, while denouncing the privileges of the European hereditary aristocracy. Even the concept of LAISSEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM, also known as FREE- MARKET CAPITALISM (the most Ideal form of capitalism) was borne around the 6th century BC in China. Both Taoists and Confucian scholars believed in little or no state intervention in economic activities. From about 2nd century BC on, Chinese dynasties practiced free market economy while only intervening from time to time in iron and salt enterprises and also by and large they kept taxes low. The Chinese idea of laissez-faire capitalism greatly influenced the French economist Quesnay who in turn influenced Adam Smith. Also in the 18th century all things Chinese were a rage in Europe. Europeans copied Chinese architecture, interior decoration, tea-drinking, etc. As you can see it was the Europeans copying Chinese, not the other way around. It’s no accident China and India were the two biggest economies in the world from the 1st century to the end of the 18th century. Also China invented blast furnace coking – coal, so called- Bessemer Steel Process, Siemens’ Steel process, weaving machine( the British weaving machine was based on Italian design that in turn was based on original Chinese model. So in other words, the design of Chinese silk weaving machine was first transmitted to Italy in the13th century and later to Britain by the way of Italy but British modified the machine for the production of cotton fabrics ), drilling techniques for oil and natural gas ( China drilled for natural gas and transferred it through pipelines for heating and lighting starting in the 4th century BC, on the other hand Europe didn’t use natural gas until the 19th century but again Britain was the first country in Europe to use natural gas in 1798). All these Chinese inventions were transmitted to Europe by direct or indirect or stimulus diffusion. Without using all these Chinese inventions, the Industrial Revolution wouldn’t have been possible. Even in agriculture, the backward Europe got modern horse collar, moldboard cast iron plow, rotary winnowing fan, MULTI -seed drill technologies and the techniques of row cultivation of crops and intense hoeing by horse-drawn hoes from China( with the exception of the horse collar which Europe adopted in the 8th century, the rest of the Chinese agricultural technologies were adopted by Europe only in the 18th century). This really shows how backward Europe was at the time. By adopting all these Chinese technologies, Britain could bring about an agricultural revolution in the 18th century These are just some of the ground- breaking Chinese inventions and ideas that were transmitted to Europe before the Industrial Revolution. Even SCIENCE was born in the 11th century in the Islamic civilization with the birth of the EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD ( all ancient civilizations were pre-scientific) The backwards Europeans translated a very large amount of Islamic scientific writings into Latin and extensively studied them thus bringing SCIENCE to Europe. Specially Alhazen’s masterpiece, BOOK OF OPTICS which is recognized as the first scientific treatise in the world by many scholars had profound effects on many European scientists. Without the influence of the Islamic science, there would have been no Scientific Revolution in the 17th century or modern science in the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe. The relatively primitive Europeans learned not only science but also advanced math from the Islamic civilization in the Middle Ages. Also the Islamic architecture and literature greatly influenced Europe. As you can see Europe was basically copying and adaptive culture before the Industrial Revolution.

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  50. m___ says:
    @FKA Max
    I have looked into these matters and came to the conclusion that the most dysgenic factor in Chinese culture is their "Social Darwinist" tendency and history:


    So if we consider selection for male wealth as a proxy for selection for intelligence, once again, it’s been stronger in Africans due to the polygynous nature of the traditional societies there and the increased reproductive success of wealthy men in polygynous societies.
     
    This is the wrong conclusion to draw, in my opinion, and precisely the mistake the IQ-ist/Social Darwinist crowd has made. They, in most cases, equate greater wealth with higher intelligence. I believe collective/societal/national/per capita wealth/GDP/productivity can be a good and useful proxy for the average intelligence of large populations, especially for nations/societies which are not natural resource exporters, e.g. oil, gas, etc., or tax havens, etc., but individual wealth can be a bit of a misleading proxy for intelligence, when wealth, wages, titles, political offices, business/family connections etc. can be inherited, etc., which is a common practice, especially in more corrupt and “traditional” societies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
    [...]

    It seems that very harsh and “Social Darwinist” environments and cultures do not necessarily select for intelligence exclusively, or maybe not even predominately, but that they mostly select for risk taking, aggressiveness, ruthlessness, i.e., psychopathic and rather anti-social traits.
    [...]
    So the less chauvinistic/“macho” a race or culture is the more likely it is to select for intelligence and low(er) testosterone, i.e., lower aggressiveness, and against the “warrior gene,” i.e., psychopathy.
     
    – http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207
     
    - https://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2071354

    Godfree Roberts is correct that the gender imbalance in China is not as severe as it was initially believed to be (see graph towards the bottom of this comment), nevertheless Chinese culture is rather patriarchal as opposed to being matriarchal "This male-heavy gender imbalance is not seen in some emerging nations, such as Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines, partly because these countries have matriarchal cultures. However, the demographic changes in India, China and Vietnam, which account for about 60% of Asia’s population, have a big impact on the rest of the region." - http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207

    So, as I stated above, in my opinion, "Social Darwinist" Chinese/Confucian culture/society does not select for intelligence and creativity, but rather for conformity and ambition, and IQ tests, in my opinion, are a better measure/test of the latter than the former: "I think what is important to reiterate is that IQ tests seem to measure and predict certain things very accurately [...] but they do ironically/paradoxically only seem to test “intelligence” to a limited extent" - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/piffers-equation-further-updated/#comment-2301523


    [I wonder though. Why has higher intelligence not disappeared then?]

    It is still being selected for, but the how exactly is important and difficult to figure out. This is just speculation on my part so far, but I suspect and my research has led me to believe, that with greater emancipation of women selection for intelligence rather than aggressiveness, etc. actually increases. This could be another explanation for the Flynn Effect; greater emancipation and protection of women, which enables them to select their mates by traits they prefer and like, like intelligence and agreeableness rather than aggressiveness and violence/anti-social behavior.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/tomster-on-marriage/#comment-1838477 and http://www.unz.com/jthompson/womens-brains/#comment-1848017

    https://asia.nikkei.com/var/site_cache/storage/images/node_43/node_51/2017/201704/20170412t/finding-china-s-missing-girls-web/6499304-2-eng-GB/finding-china-s-missing-girls-web_article_main_image.png

    Source: https://www.unz.com/article/investigating-a-great-though-flawed-investigator/#comment-2440069

    There was an interesting Twitter comment on this article on the VDare Twitter page, which I agree with:

    @witchysloot
    Replying to @vdare

    East Asian high IQ is basically high functioning autism tbh
    8:45 AM - 26 Aug 2018

    https://twitter.com/witchysloot/status/1033742344963719171

    Your comment

    This is as close as we got over the last three months to seeing the needed mindset to make public communication (on unz.com) associative and of quality! Opening a thread to analyze the article of Welton in depth would be appropriate now, and the pages would steer away of the author – commenter gap, of author – commenter being on different intellectual levels, the bread-writing incentive diminished. Correct mistakes, rewrite, bring in meaningful variables, additional evidence, it all can be done “on-line”, and give the internet quality meaning. Ultimately, who takes credit for better ideas, better theory, more insightful analysis, clearer writing is less important then authorship and ego boosting, coining, self-promoting. The “warrior gene” is indeed not very beneficial to better public understanding.

    Will get back to you concerning content. For now, could it be that the correlation between IQ and wealth – power is not so much as flawed, but simply not linear, since the association up to say 130 IQ points and relative dominance in society at large seems to break there-after?

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    The Art of Productive Laziness

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.' Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988)
    [...]
    This theory has existed for many years and applied in a number of interesting ways. One of the most famous of these was in the Prussian Army.
    Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke (1800 – 1891) was a German Generalfeldmarschall. The chief of staff of the Prussian Army for thirty years, he is widely regarded as one of the great strategists of the latter half of the 1800s, and the creator of a new, more modern method, of directing armies in the field.
    Moltke had a particular insight to and approach to categorising his officer corps, something which lives on to this day within many armed forces, and something which can apply to all forms of leadership.
    https://pmiwdc.org/sites/default/files/general/lazy_leadership_grid_350w.png
    - https://pmiwdc.org/article/peter-taylor/art-productive-laziness Archived link: http://archive.is/aFosN

    There are some other additional aspects that don't often get mentioned in race realist circles regarding the creativity and productivity (both of which presumably require above-average intelligence) gap between Europeans (particularly historically Protestant European countries and the Anglosphere) and Northeast Asians. I recently commented on this:

    Mr. Sailer this chart might be of interest to you, from the Economist. 6.7%, in 2013, of household spending in South Korea went towards education
     

    - https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-flynn-effect-in-china/#comment-2478207

    Europeans are also extremely productive per hours worked. South Koreans, for example, work 800 hours more per year than Germans
     
    - https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2478701

    The Chinese work about as much as the South Koreans [...] The average Chinese worker works between 2,000-2,200 hours every year in China, [...] “It may have been one of the secrets that help created the ‘China miracle’ but it has created a lot of problems,” Mr. Lai said, citing the frequency of workplace accidents, which tend to happen when workers are tired. “It is not sustainable.”
     
    - https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2479487

    Race realists often associate myopia with genetic intelligence and since Northeast Asia has experienced an unprecedented myopia boom over the last decades and IQ test scores have risen in tandem, they take that as proof that Northeast Asians are of superior intelligence and genetic stock, but research has shown that myopia is not an indicator of intelligence but rather effort/ambition:


    The reason East Asians do so well on IQ tests and in intelligence competitions, etc., is the same reason they have high rates of myopia, they spend a lot of time indoors studying from a young age on:

    East Asia has been gripped by an unprecedented rise in myopia, also known as short-sightedness. Sixty years ago, 10–20% of the Chinese population was short-sighted. Today, up to 90% of teenagers and young adults are. In Seoul, a whopping 96.5% of 19-year-old men are short-sighted.[]
    [...]
    To put it crudely, myopia is not the ophthalmic sign of intelligence, rather it marks the striver”, says Alireza Mirshahi.
     

    - https://www.unz.com/article/americas-cultural-revolution-the-obsession-with-self-esteem/#comment-2295700 and https://www.unz.com/jthompson/boost-your-iq/#comment-2078174

    A lot of recent Northeast Asian economic, IQ test, etc. outperformance is simply due to hard work and effort, and not genetic intelligence, etc. as many "race realists" like to claim.

    The World’s Most Productive People

    https://i1.wp.com/conorneill.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/countryproductivity_3-0624.png

    Source: https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2478701 and https://web.archive.org/web/20180828192612/https://conorneill.com/2018/01/24/the-worlds-most-productive-people/

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  51. Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China’s scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.

    If there is no radical technological break this century (e.g. widespread gene editing for greater IQ, or machine superintelligence), the scenario I posit is one of decreasing average IQ and increasing fertility rates: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/short-history-of-3rd-millennium/

    This will eventually bring back Malthusian conditions when the global population hits the carrying capacity of industrial civilization, and restart the engine of technological growth. But this will take centuries.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China’s scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.
     
    There is a lag between scientific performance and recognition. And the demographic change in the Anglo/Germanic world is increasing at an increasing rate. A few months ago I went to the graduation of the best STEM school in the U.S. It was startling how while 90% of the faculty present was white male (American & European) between the ages of ~40 to ~75, the BS/MS/PhD students were about 90% Chinese or Chinese-American (though some could’ve been Korean with Chinese-sounding names, e.g., Sung, Chang, etc.).
    , @anonymous

    In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy.
     
    Quite surprised Spain is only 1/2 of Germany per capita. Would have expected it to be lower.
    , @Anonymous
    It sounds like you watched Idiocracy one too many times.

    Regarding the gap between China and the other East Asian societies, I don't think this is a permanent gap.

    It is hard for Chinese scientists to crank out 1st world scientific research while so many of their people are still working long days in rice paddies.

    As their economy improves I expect to see China normalize with the other East Asian countries.
    , @myself

    I am likewise skeptical of China’s scientific prospects
     
    Your skepticism may have basis, based on analogies with other Asian cultures.

    But let me offer an alternative viewpoint.

    All of the countries you mentioned, Japan, South Korea and even Taiwan, are heavily influenced by specifically Japanese patterns of culture, thought and behavior.

    Taiwan was in the Japanese sphere from 1895, and Korea was influenced from 1895 as well, before being formally annexed by Japan in 1910. Japan made full-bore attempts to erase the native cultures and turn the populations culturally "Japanese". They did not succeed, of course, but such long periods spent under Japanese rule have had their effect - especially since those decades were Korea's and Taiwan's very first decades of anything resembling "modernization."

    I will not speak of things things about which I know little, so I'll use observations and comments by U.S. and Commonwealth military veterans who had experience fighting both the Imperial Japanese and the Communist Chinese armies, in the Pacific/Burma and subsequently in Korea.

    IJA attacks would be made with extreme determination, often in spite of casualties, and upon hitting effective resistance, even more power would be brought to bear in the same place, seeking to force a result. In the defense, Japanese soldiers would not abandon their positions, and if they were ever flanked or encircled, would simply switch to all-around defense and fight in place.
    The IJA was a tough opponent due to these factors.

    Fighting the Chinese in Korea was a very different proposition. On the attack, the initial onslaught would be similar in character to that of the Imperial Japanese - like a thunderbolt and a raging fire seeking to burn everything in its path.

    BUT, upon encountering a strong enemy, the CCF would NOT seek to reinforce the attack - one could see them as being less fanatical, less committed than the Japanese Army. The Chinese in Korea would have to be explicitly ordered to persist in attacking against strong resistance, for them to do so. Instead, the Chinese would seek weaker, more exploitable points in the line, and renew the attack there, becoming a raging fire again.

    By way of metaphor: In the Japanese case, the raging fire of an attack would be increased in intensity until it had burned through the obstacle, while in the case of the Chinese, the fire would suddenly turn into a flowing stream, and it would avoid that same obstacle.

    In the defense, the Chinese would initially be as reluctant to give ground as the Japanese, but when the pressure built up too much, or they were flanked or encirclement was imminent, they would not hesitate to conduct a retreat. The CCF troops would only fight in place if explicitly ordered to, which was very rare.

    I think these wartime anecdotes highlight an important difference between Chinese and Japanese cultures. Japanese military culture prized extreme toughness and will, but was somewhat rigid and unable to re-orient itself.
    Chinese military culture was somewhat less fanatical and less committed, but seemed to be very amenable to re-conceptualization due to fast changing conditions, and able to push decisions onto the lowest ranks.

    The very real differences in cultural outlook among Asian societies spoken of above MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have a profound bearing on future outcomes in the scientific fields.

    I think Mr. Karlin will see for himself how it all plays out in coming decades.

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  52. Logan says:
    @Anonymous
    https://web.archive.org/web/20110813170529/http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/~bbpowell/web/china.htm

    The contributions of the Han weigh enormously into the accomplishment of civilization, though are almost unknown, even to the Chinese themselves, who think of their great contributions as merely “The Four Inventions:” gunpowder, the compass, paper, and printing. But Joseph Needham of Cambridge University, who died in 1995, the greatest sinologist of his generation, spent his long life assembling evidence for the other extraordinary Chinese achievements in science and technology, published in his monumental Science and Civilization in China, of which nine volumes and several supplements have appeared. According to Needham’s work, the Han also invented the row cultivation of crops, the iron plow, and the horse collar, which transformed European agriculture when it came West in 700 A.D., 1,000 years after its invention in China. They invented the seed-drill, cast iron, and discovered how to make steel from cast iron. They invented the double-acting piston bellows, the crank handle, deep drilling for natural gas, the belt drive, water power, the suspension bridge, the essentials of the steam engine, the segmental arch bridge, lacquer, strong beer, petroleum and natural gas as fuel, the wheelbarrow, sliding calipers, and the fishing reel. The Chinese invention of the stirrup revolutionized warfare when it reached Europe in the 5th century A.D. and made possible the heavily armed knight, the crusades, and medieval romance. Of course the Chinese invented porcelain, a high-fired special clay--sometimes translucent--which rings when struck, always the most valued ceramic in the world. The Chinese invented the umbrella, biological pest control, matches, and chess, though most think the game came from India. They invented brandy and whiskey (which we could never seem to find), the mechanical clock, and systems of movable type seven hundred years before Gutenberg. They invented playing-cards and paper money, the spinning-wheel, the decimal system, the kite, and first experimented with manned flight with kites, made the first relief maps and invented the rudder. The Chinese first found a place for zero, invented negative numbers, and learned how to extract higher roots. They first worked with decimal fractions, used algebra in geometry, refined the value of pi, and defined “Pascal’s” triangle of binomial coefficients. The paddle-wheel boat is a Chinese invention too, as is land sailing, the canal pound-lock, batten sails and staggered masts, multiple masts, leeboards, and watertight compartments in ships. Already in the Shang dynasty (1800-1200 B.C.) the Chinese had invented the large tuned bell and tuned drums. Daoist priests discovered hermetically sealed research laboratories and first understood musical timbre and equal temperament in music (how to make the circle of fifths correspond with the octave, so that music can be modulated from key to key). In warfare the Chinese remained for long transcendent, inventing poison gas, smoke bombs, tear gas, the crossbow, flame-throwers, flares, grenades, metal cased bombs, land and sea-mines, and the rocket, both single and multistage. They invented the fire stick and the first true gun. The Chinese first understood how to diagnose diabetes through urine analysis and described the circulation of the blood 1,800 years before it was understood in the West. The Chinese discovered the solar wind, made the first Mercator map-projection, and recognized sunspots as solar phenomena. They understood circadian rhythms in the human body in the 2nd century B.C., invented the helicopter rotor and propeller, and the seismograph, and described the first law of motion 2,000 years before Newton. Only a European could discover and explain to Chinese their own past, because in China the past is not made by men striving for perfection, but is a moral pageant illustrating the universal state’s approach to and decline from heavenly favor. In China there has never been, and can never be, a scientific historiography.
     

    Thanks for posting. For at least 2000 years the Chinese were more creative than anybody else, possibly more creative than everybody else put together.

    But it appears that this long tradition of creativity more or less ended sometime around 1500, roughly when Europeans began their spectacular explosion of creativity and then expansion into the world. The drop in Chinese creativity/inventiveness was not only in relation to Europe, but apparently in relation to that of its own past. Absolute, not just relative. Never have heard a logical explanation why.

    If China was indeed more creative than Europe for 2000 years and then stopped being so, which seems to be the case, it seems unlikely the explanation is genetic or biological.

    BTW, the author of the quote is inaccurate about the rise of the knight occurring only because of the Chinese-invented stirrup. Heavy cavalry, with both horse and rider armored, charging with the lance as the primary weapon, were around long before the stirrup. Which, admittedly, probably made heavy cavalry a good deal more effective.

    Should also note that while China invented many of these things, it often did not exploit them nearly as well as others.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I think you may be perpetuating the error in the article of not allowing enough for the enormous number of sharp brains still to be educated and exploited in China together with a discernible move away from social pressures against creativity - and not just following one's elders.
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  53. m___ says:
    @Anonymous
    https://web.archive.org/web/20110813170529/http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/~bbpowell/web/china.htm

    The contributions of the Han weigh enormously into the accomplishment of civilization, though are almost unknown, even to the Chinese themselves, who think of their great contributions as merely “The Four Inventions:” gunpowder, the compass, paper, and printing. But Joseph Needham of Cambridge University, who died in 1995, the greatest sinologist of his generation, spent his long life assembling evidence for the other extraordinary Chinese achievements in science and technology, published in his monumental Science and Civilization in China, of which nine volumes and several supplements have appeared. According to Needham’s work, the Han also invented the row cultivation of crops, the iron plow, and the horse collar, which transformed European agriculture when it came West in 700 A.D., 1,000 years after its invention in China. They invented the seed-drill, cast iron, and discovered how to make steel from cast iron. They invented the double-acting piston bellows, the crank handle, deep drilling for natural gas, the belt drive, water power, the suspension bridge, the essentials of the steam engine, the segmental arch bridge, lacquer, strong beer, petroleum and natural gas as fuel, the wheelbarrow, sliding calipers, and the fishing reel. The Chinese invention of the stirrup revolutionized warfare when it reached Europe in the 5th century A.D. and made possible the heavily armed knight, the crusades, and medieval romance. Of course the Chinese invented porcelain, a high-fired special clay--sometimes translucent--which rings when struck, always the most valued ceramic in the world. The Chinese invented the umbrella, biological pest control, matches, and chess, though most think the game came from India. They invented brandy and whiskey (which we could never seem to find), the mechanical clock, and systems of movable type seven hundred years before Gutenberg. They invented playing-cards and paper money, the spinning-wheel, the decimal system, the kite, and first experimented with manned flight with kites, made the first relief maps and invented the rudder. The Chinese first found a place for zero, invented negative numbers, and learned how to extract higher roots. They first worked with decimal fractions, used algebra in geometry, refined the value of pi, and defined “Pascal’s” triangle of binomial coefficients. The paddle-wheel boat is a Chinese invention too, as is land sailing, the canal pound-lock, batten sails and staggered masts, multiple masts, leeboards, and watertight compartments in ships. Already in the Shang dynasty (1800-1200 B.C.) the Chinese had invented the large tuned bell and tuned drums. Daoist priests discovered hermetically sealed research laboratories and first understood musical timbre and equal temperament in music (how to make the circle of fifths correspond with the octave, so that music can be modulated from key to key). In warfare the Chinese remained for long transcendent, inventing poison gas, smoke bombs, tear gas, the crossbow, flame-throwers, flares, grenades, metal cased bombs, land and sea-mines, and the rocket, both single and multistage. They invented the fire stick and the first true gun. The Chinese first understood how to diagnose diabetes through urine analysis and described the circulation of the blood 1,800 years before it was understood in the West. The Chinese discovered the solar wind, made the first Mercator map-projection, and recognized sunspots as solar phenomena. They understood circadian rhythms in the human body in the 2nd century B.C., invented the helicopter rotor and propeller, and the seismograph, and described the first law of motion 2,000 years before Newton. Only a European could discover and explain to Chinese their own past, because in China the past is not made by men striving for perfection, but is a moral pageant illustrating the universal state’s approach to and decline from heavenly favor. In China there has never been, and can never be, a scientific historiography.
     

    Indeed.

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  54. Anonymous[632] • Disclaimer says:

    Who wants to save civilization anyway? Civilization is the problem.

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  55. m___ says:
    @Jim
    It would be desirable to have more representative data on the IQ of the Chinese population. However there is extensive data on the IQ of the Japanese population and the results obtained by Japanese vs. western psychometricians do not differ significantly. These studies indicate an average population IQ of 107 in Japan. Given the genetic similarity between Han Chinese and Japanese it is very unlikely that the average IQ of the Han Chinese is anywhere near as low as 95.

    It would be desirable to have more representative data on the IQ of the Chinese population.

    Large samples, the biology of genetics, in a “few” years, will be indeed the more conclusive argument.

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  56. Bucky says:
    @Jeff Stryker
    YEE


    You made this point about a year ago on Robert's site and it is relevant.

    1870's saw a huge wave of Chinese pigtails to California from Guangdong. They were laborers and career prostitutes with a few highly-feared Tongs intent on making money from vice in railroad boom towns off opium sales (Nothing changes) and gambling.

    These early Chinese immigrants were an unruly headache and nightmare for the white authorities of San Francisco. Their neglected kids ran wild in the streets, sometimes robbing whites, and at one point the police force simply went into their slums and shot Chinese street urchins.

    But over the last 100 years, they assimilated and are now firmly middle-class. They don't even live in Chinatown anymore. They moved into the suburbs in the mid-20th century.

    The second wave of Chinese immigrants post-1965 to the US were technocrats or skilled tradespeople and had less trouble finding gainful employment. I grew up with these Chinese. Most were Cantonese or from Beijing.

    It was not until the 1990's that the Chinese new-rich arrived. The US was more than happy to have their money.

    You are correct that Old Stock Chinese-Americans are not the real new wealthy or famous tech millionaires.

    I’m not aware of any descendants from the 19th century Chinese migrants. As they were mainly men, most who stayed led to lonely deaths. I suppose a few did marry white women, But decades afterwards of intermarriage would make the Chinese minuscule.

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    Enough of them did to have a Chinatown in San Francisco by Mark Twain's era.
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  57. Tony Borg says:

    A five thousand year old culture with 1.4 billion people.

    Don’t be so hasty.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    When Zhou Enlai was asked in the late 20th century what he thinks about the French revolution, he replied: “it’s too early to judge”.
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  58. @Anon
    So, you grew up in the 1980s in the black ghettoes of Detroit, the wealthy White college town of Ann Arbor 50 miles from Detroit and now you grew up among Chinese in the 1980s.

    Where did you live that you grew up among Chinese?

    Maybe you should read your old posts so you can keep your stories straight

    My Lord you are a dumb Gen Y troll.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    And what does it say about your narcissism that you haven't noticed the Anon [257] is no gen Y commenter? Or is it your weird sense of humour?
    , @Truth
    I think Geoffrey has had enough of you clowns questioning his street-cred.
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  59. @Bucky
    I’m not aware of any descendants from the 19th century Chinese migrants. As they were mainly men, most who stayed led to lonely deaths. I suppose a few did marry white women, But decades afterwards of intermarriage would make the Chinese minuscule.

    Enough of them did to have a Chinatown in San Francisco by Mark Twain’s era.

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  60. Sam F2 says:

    The writer has not studied IQ vs. intelligence.
    It is not passed on genetically; some results from family learning.
    He should not be writing on this subject.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Imprinted genes theory look very good to explain genetic transmission. There are parents who have children which basically inherited the whole phenotype of one them. I have a adopted mulato cousin woman who had a girl with a white guy and her daughter basically is the face, the body and the personality of him. So, the idea that it's always a genetic COMBINATION seems possibly wrong because what happen is the ''fight'' between maternal and parental genes and sometimes one of them absolutely obliterate the other.
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  61. AaronB says:

    In many ways China has all the pathologies of the West, just on lag time.

    As for creativity, the highly collectivist Jews who occupied an ecological niche that highly favored collectivism and ethnocentrism if anyone did, were quite creative, and Europeans were more creative the more collectivist their cultures were – the rise of individualism coincided with increasingly less creativity.

    Creativity itself is highly collectivist and conformist – only societies that value it highly produce creative people – i.e, societies that value above all else discovering some new aspect of the physical world to control and manipulate – and creative people draw from and rely upon the work of many people before them.

    Only European society, and to some extent Jews who lived in these societies, had that level of materialism.

    No Asian country can match the materialism of the modern West. This may change.

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    • Replies: @tamo
    China was far more creative than Europe before the Industrial Revolution. The last 250-year European domination in technology is an aberration from long-running Chinese domination in technology and economy. By the middle of this century, China has a good chance to reclaim it's top spot in technology again. Read my comment 49.
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  62. Yee says:

    Jeff Stryker,

    I think the wave after 1965 were still poor peasants who were relatives or married to the earlier migrants. Because China and US didn’t have foreign relation until 1979, so only families or relatives were able to immigrate in the 60s. Those who went from Taiwan to US might have been different, I don’t know. But Taiwan was also quite poor in the 60s, its economy really started to take off in mid 70s to 80s under Chang’s son.

    The better educated group from mainland started in the 80s or 90s since universities in China didn’t go back to normal until 1978. The richer immigrants must be in the new millennium.

    Anyway, there’s no denying that lots of the top talent of China have been going to the US. Top universities Tsinghua and Peking students are joked to be future Americans.

    In a bizarre way, it’s fortunate for China that this lot have been placed under Indians in the US, considering it’s mostly the second rate talent that are building China.

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  63. This article indicates that Chinese female hypergamy is asserting itself with the greater prosperity and access to birth control in very similar ways that it did in the west.

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  64. Genius can be ‘produced’ artificially, the problem is how to do it and that it’s expected a strong correlation with broader spectrum of mental disorders, if a disorder must be necessary to produce the genius, if the genius itself IS a disorder, a extreme phenotypical expression, just like gigantism, a syndrome. but in not absolute maladapted expression.

    Seems majority of ”intelligence-researchers” only know to talk about IQ. Creativity, that is fundamentally important, is seeing as less than what IQ measure/compare.

    Another huge problem our brave eugenists barrely discuss and even tend to be antagonistic is about morality issues, and yes, majority of them because their conservative approach will defend a disgusting and contradictory combination between a deffective heuristics [religion] a eugenics.

    Before to think and even to engage in the ”fabrication” of human beings, think about what most of us no have, real rationality.

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  65. A repetition of same thing since i was in hbd sphere, absolutely nothing creative in this text, period.

    Another possible question about genius is that, because its rarity, the current demographic transition may not be good for its sporadic individual manifestations, at least in natural selective circunstances.

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  66. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Another German Reader
    No, I'm just a frequent business traveller in East-/Southeast-Asia.

    The Vietnamese came out of devastating civil war and 10 years of failed socio-economic policies and now are already ahead of many other developing countries.

    Vietnam in 2018 is where China was in 2000 or S-Korea/Taiwan in 1978.

    If you live in Europe, come to this years' Paris Auto Show and see the first sign of Vietnamese grand ambition:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSCbrzoY-I

    (Yes, they are getting help from the Italians & Germans, but any master was a student once.)

    Even with moderate IQ, ambition & hard work can carry you very far: Indonesian medium-tank prototype:

    https://i.imgur.com/JE26fWl.jpg

    But both Indonesians and Viets have cohesive societies. Something the clannish Arabs, tribal SS-Africans and the stratified Latinos don't have.

    Soon the West will join the club of mediocrity.

    “devastating civil war ” LOL

    Are you referring to the French colonization followed by the US attempts at colonization using /agent Orange/carpet bombing/village massacres/napalm etc.

    sort of like the Syrian “civil” war

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    • Replies: @Another German Reader
    Like I said before: Go visit Vietnam and feel/witness the dynamic atmospshere! Talk to foreign businessmen and ask their opinion on VN's prospects!

    Within MNCs many people are already saying that Vietnam is the Last Mohican of this century. The last country to become a trully industrial society.
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  67. @Sam F2
    The writer has not studied IQ vs. intelligence.
    It is not passed on genetically; some results from family learning.
    He should not be writing on this subject.

    Imprinted genes theory look very good to explain genetic transmission. There are parents who have children which basically inherited the whole phenotype of one them. I have a adopted mulato cousin woman who had a girl with a white guy and her daughter basically is the face, the body and the personality of him. So, the idea that it’s always a genetic COMBINATION seems possibly wrong because what happen is the ”fight” between maternal and parental genes and sometimes one of them absolutely obliterate the other.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Congrats! You reinvented the wheel. Old man Mendel knew ~150 years ago that genes can be dominant or recessive. Take an introductory biology course and then come back.
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  68. jgarbo says:
    @Gordo
    A colleague of mine who has completed some projects in China tells me emphatically that outside of the coastal elites there is no way their average IQ is as high as 105.

    Your comment is worse than useless. It betrays you stupidity. Try again and contribute something.

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  69. Phille says:
    @Hbd investor
    The idea that East Asians are less creative is laughable

    The paper linked showing east asians are less creative is pure malarkey, and the author simply states that asians are more collective and conservative and then uses that for an explanation for why the Europeans were the first to industrialize.

    The ability to invent, is highly dependent on factors such as a demand to invent, and the resources and time needed.

    Typically pre industrial scientific advances were done by the idle rich aristocracy who lived lives of luxury as land owners who collected rent, because they were the only ones who could afford education and had the wealth to buy scientific equipment not because they were more creative and intelligent than the peasants

    They had the money to order craftsman to build things like test tubes, and order peasants to collect various rocks and chemicals

    If we look at say cooking, say chicken.

    The chinese had far more numerous recipes to boil, steam, deepfry, bake, grill, smoke

    Or how about swords?

    European swords

    https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/sword_types_overview.gif

    Meanwhile the chinese had numerous types of swords

    Not only did they have the stiff ones used by historical europe, they made scimitars, a flexible whiplike sword (dao), tiger hook swords, and the 9 ring sword

    So now you are probably asking, if the chinese are indeed creative then why didn’t they industrialize?

    This has all been explained by Karl Marx and by Thanos

    In order to do science, you need capital accumulation

    The aristocracy historically did science because they had capital

    China never had capital accumulation, since all excess capital went to serve a ever growing population

    Europe on the other hand had The black death, which led to a smaller population that inherited wealth from a larger population, the black death ended the middle ages and started the Renaissance

    This is the same reason why Thanos wanted to wipe out half of earths population, so the surviving half would have plenty of resources and be able to pursue and advance science rather than science stagnating due to capital and resources being split amongst a massive population.

    Then why does Japan with a much higher IQ, bigger population and higher r&d investment lag behind the Western European countries when it comes to scientific output and GDP?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hbd investor
    Many things effect GDP and gdp per capita and wages tend to decline as population increases, industries, pop culture etc....

    Countries like Qatar are wealthy and are clearly low innovation.

    So the argument that Japan is not innovative because it has low gdp holds no water

    And as for reasearch, how exactly are you measuring research?

    Is it patents? Is it research papers? Is it citation rankings?

    Does research count social science papers about the effect of racism on transgender transracial gender neutral children?

    Are fields like biology and medicine that tend to generate thousands upon thousands of research papers lumped in with physics papers?

    What about countries like the US that have papers generated by numerous non whites and non white grad students?

    Ranking a country by research papers is about serious issue because there is no way to sort by quality.

    A physics paper that solves a 50 year old physics problem that barely gets any citations because it is in a extremely difficult speciality is surely higher than the 300,000 cancer research papers produced every year each of them highly cute by the other 299,999 papers

    Of note

    Japan has the world's highest patents per capita followed by south korea

    So useful research that ends up generating patents is led by japan
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  70. jgarbo says:
    @Per/Norway
    well said.

    Never the “one child” rule. Engineering Prof in Guangzhou, old friend, explained he could have as many children as he liked BUT the govt would only pay – everything – for the first. After that he would paying full price for subsequent children. He and his wife took the one child route, a charming, bright son. There was never a “One child” – abort the next – policy. More Western propaganda?

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    There was never a “One child” – abort the next – policy. More Western propaganda?
     
    This is true as it stands, JGarbo, there was no government abortion policy that I've heard about. I also know someone whose cousins had a 2nd child, and the girl could not be registered for school (goes along with the theory of why # of girls may be "catching up"), and the 2 parents were fired from their workplace.

    However, that doesn't mean that lots of Chinese Moms didn't have abortions when they found out a girl was on the way. In fact, there was government policy enacted within a decade ago that forbid divulgence of the sex of a fetus to the parents for this reason. You've got to understand that 90% of Chinese were very poor up until 15 - 20 years back, and there are still hundreds of millionns of very poor Chinese people. They almost all still want a boy for taking care of the parents during old age, and they may not have the money to support more than one. Unlike American ghetto dwellers, even the very poor over there are responsible (that's a topic for another discussion).

    Maybe you didn't read the "propaganda" thoroughly, but your engineering prof. sounds on the level.
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  71. jgarbo says:
    @attilathehen
    I know this. And yet, only Japan has a first world, democratic country in Asia. China is a shithole.

    Lived and worked in Japan for three years, spoke Japanese daily. Democracy does not exist in Japan, as it does not exist in US. It’s a ritual. Visit China often with (Chinese) father-in-law. No “democracy” but everyone doing what they like, business, work,study, supported by “authoritarian” govt to improve the whole country. As for the US, Honduras is its future. Take a trip, bring a gun.

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    • Replies: @Bucky
    Lol very much yes.

    This is why it is so folly to divide the world into good democracies and evil autocracies. Who in the world is going to fight for, as Obi-Wan Kenobi yelled before chopping off the legs of a teenager, democracy?
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Democracy is a sham. The Japanese are more hypocritical about it....I mean,more polite about it :)

    The great firewall is bullshit annoyance though.
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  72. Logan says:
    @Anonymous
    I'm curious why white people cling to the creativity angle so much when white people themselves are not so creative.

    Sure, Jews definately are. But to try and make creativity a white characteristic is absurd. Blacks are definitely more creative than whites, so are Latinos. Arabs are in a bad spot right now with Islam sucking all of the life out of them, but if you know their culture and history I would even say that Arabs are more creative than whites.

    So the only people whites are definitely more creative than are East Asians. Whoopty do. Japan being the wealthiest Asian nation has definately shown creativity, more so than most European nations except the white countries with Jews like America.

    The creativity meme is clearly just insecure white people grasping at straws to try and find something to make up for the lower iq.

    Since just about everything we see around us in the modern world was invented/created by white people, I will assume you are using some non-standard definition of the word.

    So give us your definition and then we can perhaps discuss which groups excel in it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    It was created by ''white'' INDIVIDUALS and not PEOPLE, and not YOU. It's a cultural appropriation via colectivization of individual achievements.



    ...


    If ''high IQ'' women stop to have kids, ''high IQ'' phenotypes will be umbalancedly expressed by ''masculine'' genes or transmissible by males. It seems will recreate a patriarchism.. poor stupid feminists..
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  73. Phille says:
    @Hbd investor
    >And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can’t come up with their own

    China leads the world in trapped ion quantum computers, photonic quantum computers, has the world's first quantum satellite, world's first superconducting tokomak (only 2 in the world south korea has the other one but has not been able to beat the chinese one), has built the submarine with the world's deepest dive.

    There are numerous other chinese scientific achievements

    Pick up any science journal and look at all the chinese names.

    It's funny how layman who never bothered to pick up a science journal, somehow believes that they are qualified to determine who is stealing from who, and who has made contributions to what

    >Vietnam? Come on. It’s a shithole

    Yet they dominate Europeans in the Pisa which was my entire point

    Wealthy Europeans with the best healthcare, education and living standards can't beat a bunch of partially east asians 3rd worlders in reading, science and math

    “Yet they dominate Europeans in the Pisa which was my entire point”

    But they actually don’t. If you look at the native’s scores Germany is basically on Japan’s level and Switzerland on Korea’s. It is only third world immigration that is bringing the European scores down. And I’m not even sure that the “natives” don’t contain kids with an immigration background two generations back.

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  74. @Logan
    Since just about everything we see around us in the modern world was invented/created by white people, I will assume you are using some non-standard definition of the word.

    So give us your definition and then we can perhaps discuss which groups excel in it.

    It was created by ”white” INDIVIDUALS and not PEOPLE, and not YOU. It’s a cultural appropriation via colectivization of individual achievements.

    If ”high IQ” women stop to have kids, ”high IQ” phenotypes will be umbalancedly expressed by ”masculine” genes or transmissible by males. It seems will recreate a patriarchism.. poor stupid feminists..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    An odd remark. Anon was, presumably, comparing the aggregate creativity of "white people" vs. other ethnic or racial groups. It's his model, not mine.

    But we can't even talk about it if we don't first agree on what we mean by the term.

    I've seen "creativity" used to refer primarily to inventiveness related to the arts or aesthetics. Doesn't seem right to me. I think creativity is more accurately defined as innovation of any type. Science, engineering, even politics.

    Dictionary (creative):
    adjective
    having the quality or power of creating.
    resulting from originality of thought, expression, etc.; imaginative:
    creative writing.
    originative; productive (usually followed by of).
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  75. Escher says:
    @attilathehen
    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.

    And on what basis do you say that Vietnam has peaked?

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians who have developed a first world country. The Vietnamese are less intelligent than the Japanese. Vietnam never was and never will be great again.
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  76. Escher says:
    @Anonymous
    https://web.archive.org/web/20110813170529/http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/~bbpowell/web/china.htm

    The contributions of the Han weigh enormously into the accomplishment of civilization, though are almost unknown, even to the Chinese themselves, who think of their great contributions as merely “The Four Inventions:” gunpowder, the compass, paper, and printing. But Joseph Needham of Cambridge University, who died in 1995, the greatest sinologist of his generation, spent his long life assembling evidence for the other extraordinary Chinese achievements in science and technology, published in his monumental Science and Civilization in China, of which nine volumes and several supplements have appeared. According to Needham’s work, the Han also invented the row cultivation of crops, the iron plow, and the horse collar, which transformed European agriculture when it came West in 700 A.D., 1,000 years after its invention in China. They invented the seed-drill, cast iron, and discovered how to make steel from cast iron. They invented the double-acting piston bellows, the crank handle, deep drilling for natural gas, the belt drive, water power, the suspension bridge, the essentials of the steam engine, the segmental arch bridge, lacquer, strong beer, petroleum and natural gas as fuel, the wheelbarrow, sliding calipers, and the fishing reel. The Chinese invention of the stirrup revolutionized warfare when it reached Europe in the 5th century A.D. and made possible the heavily armed knight, the crusades, and medieval romance. Of course the Chinese invented porcelain, a high-fired special clay--sometimes translucent--which rings when struck, always the most valued ceramic in the world. The Chinese invented the umbrella, biological pest control, matches, and chess, though most think the game came from India. They invented brandy and whiskey (which we could never seem to find), the mechanical clock, and systems of movable type seven hundred years before Gutenberg. They invented playing-cards and paper money, the spinning-wheel, the decimal system, the kite, and first experimented with manned flight with kites, made the first relief maps and invented the rudder. The Chinese first found a place for zero, invented negative numbers, and learned how to extract higher roots. They first worked with decimal fractions, used algebra in geometry, refined the value of pi, and defined “Pascal’s” triangle of binomial coefficients. The paddle-wheel boat is a Chinese invention too, as is land sailing, the canal pound-lock, batten sails and staggered masts, multiple masts, leeboards, and watertight compartments in ships. Already in the Shang dynasty (1800-1200 B.C.) the Chinese had invented the large tuned bell and tuned drums. Daoist priests discovered hermetically sealed research laboratories and first understood musical timbre and equal temperament in music (how to make the circle of fifths correspond with the octave, so that music can be modulated from key to key). In warfare the Chinese remained for long transcendent, inventing poison gas, smoke bombs, tear gas, the crossbow, flame-throwers, flares, grenades, metal cased bombs, land and sea-mines, and the rocket, both single and multistage. They invented the fire stick and the first true gun. The Chinese first understood how to diagnose diabetes through urine analysis and described the circulation of the blood 1,800 years before it was understood in the West. The Chinese discovered the solar wind, made the first Mercator map-projection, and recognized sunspots as solar phenomena. They understood circadian rhythms in the human body in the 2nd century B.C., invented the helicopter rotor and propeller, and the seismograph, and described the first law of motion 2,000 years before Newton. Only a European could discover and explain to Chinese their own past, because in China the past is not made by men striving for perfection, but is a moral pageant illustrating the universal state’s approach to and decline from heavenly favor. In China there has never been, and can never be, a scientific historiography.
     

    The works of Socrates and Plato were also ghost written by a Chinese philosopher.

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  77. Bucky says:
    @jgarbo
    Lived and worked in Japan for three years, spoke Japanese daily. Democracy does not exist in Japan, as it does not exist in US. It's a ritual. Visit China often with (Chinese) father-in-law. No "democracy" but everyone doing what they like, business, work,study, supported by "authoritarian" govt to improve the whole country. As for the US, Honduras is its future. Take a trip, bring a gun.

    Lol very much yes.

    This is why it is so folly to divide the world into good democracies and evil autocracies. Who in the world is going to fight for, as Obi-Wan Kenobi yelled before chopping off the legs of a teenager, democracy?

    Read More
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  78. Joe Wong says:
    @Read David Brock's Memo
    There have not been any truly representative studies of Chinese IQ or intelligence. Too many people are still excluded from studies conducted in the mainland, often because of government interference, the Chinese tendency toward self-serving embellishment, or simply the inability to obtain a representative sample due to the still extremely disorderly nature of Chinese society. The most laughable case is the Shanghai PISA results -- not only not representative of China, but not even close to representative of Shanghai. Studies done using ethnically Chinese people in other countries produce results that are obviously not representative of the entirety of the Chinese ethnicity, as those individuals very often must meet criteria positively correlated with intelligence, ambition, and financial prowess to make their way out of China. Having worked as a factory inspector and teacher in China, I personally doubt the average IQ for the entire Chinese population is over 95 -- and that is after having taught in very good schools (i.e., expensive, well-known schools to which rich parents send their kids) in the dark blue regions on the map.

    It is puzzling why the West insists that Chinese is smarter and with higher IQ, then they try very hard to disprove what they created and said themselves. Is it an expression of inferiority complex or an anxiety of the chicken coming home to roost for what they have done to the world in the past?

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  79. Joe Wong says:
    @Anon
    China still suffers the effect of a lousy diet. You can't raise high IQ children on a lot of rice and very little meat protein. If they ate a western diet, they'd have a higher IQ.

    The Chinese are eating more western diet now, unfortunately they are getting a lot of Western health problems like obesity and diabetes before raising their IQ.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Very, true, Joe. Even just lots of white rice is bad, as it has a higher glycemic index than even potatoes. The incidence of diabetes in China has gone way up, as you say.

    I no longer dub you "Joe Wrong". (It's been a while, Joe, and I can't remember what that was even about - ~ year ago or so.)
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  80. Who cares what the IQ sect believes? Their religion is no less ridiculous than the Mormon faith.

    The collective suicide of the so-called West appears irreversible. So, if the humanity survives (i.e., if the Empire in its death throes does not start WWIII), the civilization torch-bearers would be either East Asians (including China), or Eastern Europeans (including Russia), or Latin Americans (including … gasp… Mexico). Most likely all of the above. Anyway, as the saying goes, “we can predict everything, except the future”.

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    LATIN AMERICA

    Sure, they have a great track record there.

    EASTERN EUROPE

    I doubt this.

    EAST ASIA

    More probable.
    , @Eric Novak
    You've made no case against the strong predictive power of IQ as measured by many tests, including SAT/ACT tests in the US.
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  81. @Santoculto
    Imprinted genes theory look very good to explain genetic transmission. There are parents who have children which basically inherited the whole phenotype of one them. I have a adopted mulato cousin woman who had a girl with a white guy and her daughter basically is the face, the body and the personality of him. So, the idea that it's always a genetic COMBINATION seems possibly wrong because what happen is the ''fight'' between maternal and parental genes and sometimes one of them absolutely obliterate the other.

    Congrats! You reinvented the wheel. Old man Mendel knew ~150 years ago that genes can be dominant or recessive. Take an introductory biology course and then come back.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Or my english is going worse or it's your reading/interpretation issues...

    How explain a always- genetic combination scenario when we have a son or a daughter who simply look like a copy of only-one of their progenitors...

    A ''one'' recessive gene... i'm talking about situations where entire phenotype is supressed by other... can understand this*
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  82. @Tony Borg
    A five thousand year old culture with 1.4 billion people.

    Don't be so hasty.

    When Zhou Enlai was asked in the late 20th century what he thinks about the French revolution, he replied: “it’s too early to judge”.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Well never pass up a good shop worn cliché but have a look at

    https://mediamythalert.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/too-early-to-say-zhou-was-speaking-about-1968-not-1789/
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  83. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker
    My Lord you are a dumb Gen Y troll.

    And what does it say about your narcissism that you haven’t noticed the Anon [257] is no gen Y commenter? Or is it your weird sense of humour?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    Narcissism?
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  84. @AnonFromTN
    Who cares what the IQ sect believes? Their religion is no less ridiculous than the Mormon faith.

    The collective suicide of the so-called West appears irreversible. So, if the humanity survives (i.e., if the Empire in its death throes does not start WWIII), the civilization torch-bearers would be either East Asians (including China), or Eastern Europeans (including Russia), or Latin Americans (including … gasp… Mexico). Most likely all of the above. Anyway, as the saying goes, “we can predict everything, except the future”.

    LATIN AMERICA

    Sure, they have a great track record there.

    EASTERN EUROPE

    I doubt this.

    EAST ASIA

    More probable.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    I suggest you visit Mexico and see for yourself just how wrong all US myths about it are. Mexico City is safer than most US cities, they have more book stores in downtown Mexico City than we have in all of the US, college-educated Mexicans are better informed about the world than Americans with PhD, etc. I don’t know about you, but I was surprised, even though I did not expect to hear anything true from American MSM.
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  85. @Logan
    Thanks for posting. For at least 2000 years the Chinese were more creative than anybody else, possibly more creative than everybody else put together.

    But it appears that this long tradition of creativity more or less ended sometime around 1500, roughly when Europeans began their spectacular explosion of creativity and then expansion into the world. The drop in Chinese creativity/inventiveness was not only in relation to Europe, but apparently in relation to that of its own past. Absolute, not just relative. Never have heard a logical explanation why.

    If China was indeed more creative than Europe for 2000 years and then stopped being so, which seems to be the case, it seems unlikely the explanation is genetic or biological.

    BTW, the author of the quote is inaccurate about the rise of the knight occurring only because of the Chinese-invented stirrup. Heavy cavalry, with both horse and rider armored, charging with the lance as the primary weapon, were around long before the stirrup. Which, admittedly, probably made heavy cavalry a good deal more effective.

    Should also note that while China invented many of these things, it often did not exploit them nearly as well as others.

    I think you may be perpetuating the error in the article of not allowing enough for the enormous number of sharp brains still to be educated and exploited in China together with a discernible move away from social pressures against creativity – and not just following one’s elders.

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    • Replies: @Logan
    I don't think that's my error. I am objecting to the idea that Chinese are inherently less innovative or creative, as the article says. My objection is based on historical evidence that China was for most of its history more creative than the West.

    It also seems to me, though I'm no expert, that China suffered a sudden drop in creativity just about the same time the West took a spectacular bounce up.
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  86. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN
    When Zhou Enlai was asked in the late 20th century what he thinks about the French revolution, he replied: “it’s too early to judge”.
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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    That’s one of the interpretations. Not necessarily the truest one.
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  87. @attilathehen
    If this was meant for me, focus on Germany. You need to expel blacks/Asians/Muslims/Jews from your country.

    expelling Jews:

    Forget about it! Adolf gave them an unassailable armour.

    expelling Black:

    Children of Black US GIs and German women – not possible as they are citizen from the start.

    SS-African could be much better regulated – especially the recent illegal arrivals from Med.

    SS-Africans, who came as diplomat/businessmen/college-students are not troublemakers.

    expelling Muslims:

    The former guest-workers and their (grand)children are partially integrated, if their background was from urban regions of home country.

    The ones from the rural regions of Anatolia & MENA are not integrated, but a high portion has received citizenship in 1980s/1990s. Only a dictatorship could deport them.

    The recent arrivals from the Med will probably deported, when the Merkel era ends in 2021.

    expelling other migrants:

    There are migrants from Vietnam, the Caucasus, former Yugoslavia and Latin-America. Most are relatively integrated and/or are in low numbers and mostly keep their heads down. Troublesome migrants from these groups are already being deported.

    In the end: Germany/W-Europe will be diverse even if stop all migration right away. The trouble are jihadists with citizenship and SS-Africa’s surplus sons in the next century.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    You're a cuck.

    The Hitler card is gone. It's the Caucasian RCC/Zioevangizer male who is the cause of our problems.

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don't belong.

    Guest worker in Germany can cover Spaniards, Portuguese and Turks. The Turks will have to go.

    A lot of diversity can be reversed.

    Of course, you will not help. You're too busy worrying about the shithole Vietnam.
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  88. @AnonFromTN
    Congrats! You reinvented the wheel. Old man Mendel knew ~150 years ago that genes can be dominant or recessive. Take an introductory biology course and then come back.

    Or my english is going worse or it’s your reading/interpretation issues…

    How explain a always- genetic combination scenario when we have a son or a daughter who simply look like a copy of only-one of their progenitors…

    A ”one” recessive gene… i’m talking about situations where entire phenotype is supressed by other… can understand this*

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Well, if a child has one Italian or Spanish and one “Scandinavian blonde” parent, chances are that the child would look exactly like the Italian or Spanish parent simply because “darker” genes are dominant. Pale skin, blue eyes, and blond hair mean lack of pigment, whereas darker skin/eyes/hair mean the presence of pigment, so that one gene from a “darker” parent dominates in the first generation. The “blonde” genes are still present and will manifest themselves if that child has children with a “blonde” partner: the ratio of darker and paler children would be 1:1.

    That's just one example, but I guess you get the drift.

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  89. @Jeff Stryker
    LATIN AMERICA

    Sure, they have a great track record there.

    EASTERN EUROPE

    I doubt this.

    EAST ASIA

    More probable.

    I suggest you visit Mexico and see for yourself just how wrong all US myths about it are. Mexico City is safer than most US cities, they have more book stores in downtown Mexico City than we have in all of the US, college-educated Mexicans are better informed about the world than Americans with PhD, etc. I don’t know about you, but I was surprised, even though I did not expect to hear anything true from American MSM.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    Why are Mestizos and Indians so poor in Mexico? Why don't the 10% of the population that is white willing to share the pie?
    , @Truth
    I haven't spent much time in Mexico, but I live in New Mexico and speak Spanish fairly well.

    A few hours watching Univision (whereat I once worked) disputes much of this...
    , @Amen
    Mexican poets, scientists and philosophers are world renowned. Their scientific/engineering/medical advancements and contributions to the modern world are on par with those from Wakanda.
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  90. @Anon
    Well never pass up a good shop worn cliché but have a look at

    https://mediamythalert.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/too-early-to-say-zhou-was-speaking-about-1968-not-1789/

    That’s one of the interpretations. Not necessarily the truest one.

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  91. @Anon
    And what does it say about your narcissism that you haven't noticed the Anon [257] is no gen Y commenter? Or is it your weird sense of humour?

    Narcissism?

    Read More
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  92. @The Scalpel
    "devastating civil war " LOL

    Are you referring to the French colonization followed by the US attempts at colonization using /agent Orange/carpet bombing/village massacres/napalm etc.

    sort of like the Syrian "civil" war

    Like I said before: Go visit Vietnam and feel/witness the dynamic atmospshere! Talk to foreign businessmen and ask their opinion on VN’s prospects!

    Within MNCs many people are already saying that Vietnam is the Last Mohican of this century. The last country to become a trully industrial society.

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    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    Your reply is a complete non-sequiter.
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  93. Anonymous[266] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China's scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.

    If there is no radical technological break this century (e.g. widespread gene editing for greater IQ, or machine superintelligence), the scenario I posit is one of decreasing average IQ and increasing fertility rates: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/short-history-of-3rd-millennium/

    This will eventually bring back Malthusian conditions when the global population hits the carrying capacity of industrial civilization, and restart the engine of technological growth. But this will take centuries.

    Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China’s scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.

    There is a lag between scientific performance and recognition. And the demographic change in the Anglo/Germanic world is increasing at an increasing rate. A few months ago I went to the graduation of the best STEM school in the U.S. It was startling how while 90% of the faculty present was white male (American & European) between the ages of ~40 to ~75, the BS/MS/PhD students were about 90% Chinese or Chinese-American (though some could’ve been Korean with Chinese-sounding names, e.g., Sung, Chang, etc.).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Sure, but the Nature Index (unlike Nobel Prizes) is a current measure of high quality scientific output, i.e. published in the world's top few dozen journals.
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  94. The cultural hypothesis make little sense, europeans has been sharply collective since most part of its history. Because white europeans have invaded another places via globalization or invented the industrialization it’s doesn’t mean they are CONSIDERABLY more individualistic..

    Cultural differences between eastern and western in moral, artistic/philosophical/scientific issues throghout history has been little than supporters of this hypothesis would like. The significant and simple difference is that highly creative people have appeared more [and produced more] in Europe than in China, and specially during post-middle european age.

    If chinese elites had more of subservient geniuses to improve their kingdom/power before western domination, i doubt they would oppress them.

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  95. @Anonymous

    Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China’s scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.
     
    There is a lag between scientific performance and recognition. And the demographic change in the Anglo/Germanic world is increasing at an increasing rate. A few months ago I went to the graduation of the best STEM school in the U.S. It was startling how while 90% of the faculty present was white male (American & European) between the ages of ~40 to ~75, the BS/MS/PhD students were about 90% Chinese or Chinese-American (though some could’ve been Korean with Chinese-sounding names, e.g., Sung, Chang, etc.).

    Sure, but the Nature Index (unlike Nobel Prizes) is a current measure of high quality scientific output, i.e. published in the world’s top few dozen journals.

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    • Replies: @Hbd investor
    The nature index still has flaws, they look only at papers written in english and they give more points to citations from other countries

    In addition they lump in cancer research and biology journals with journals containing real science

    Clearly this would result a bias against non english speaking countries and also a bias against highly specialized and more difficult research.

    A super string paper could be revolutionary yet barely cited due to the low number of super string specialists yet get less citations than cancer paper that gets cited thousands of times due to the vast number of cancer researchers and all the funding that cancer research gets
    , @Anonymous
    As the member of previous genius class in the China best university in 90s, I found that nearly all of my classmates were busy in making money rather than doing pure research & academic jobs, no matter how smart they were proved in IMO, IPhO, etc.

    The key reason I guess: food & shelter were highly prioritized (reflected as money) in the mind after over 100 years of deep poverty and hunger.

    Now the status has been changed, but the new generation still needs more time for mature scientific culture and ecosystem, which costed 50~100 years in the history of west countries.

    i.e, I don't think that the current Nature Index is good indicator for your viewpoint.
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  96. @AnonFromTN
    I suggest you visit Mexico and see for yourself just how wrong all US myths about it are. Mexico City is safer than most US cities, they have more book stores in downtown Mexico City than we have in all of the US, college-educated Mexicans are better informed about the world than Americans with PhD, etc. I don’t know about you, but I was surprised, even though I did not expect to hear anything true from American MSM.

    Why are Mestizos and Indians so poor in Mexico? Why don’t the 10% of the population that is white willing to share the pie?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    For the same reason the likes of Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are reluctant to share the pie with other Americans. History shows that wealth is never shared voluntarily. The wealthy can be forced to share it by the government (progressive taxation; inheritance tax) or by the population (revolutions). The first option is generally less destructive, but not always feasible: the wealthy usually buy the government lock, stock, and barrel (like today in the US).
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  97. @jgarbo
    Lived and worked in Japan for three years, spoke Japanese daily. Democracy does not exist in Japan, as it does not exist in US. It's a ritual. Visit China often with (Chinese) father-in-law. No "democracy" but everyone doing what they like, business, work,study, supported by "authoritarian" govt to improve the whole country. As for the US, Honduras is its future. Take a trip, bring a gun.

    Democracy is a sham. The Japanese are more hypocritical about it….I mean,more polite about it :)

    The great firewall is bullshit annoyance though.

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  98. Talha says:
    @Kratoklastes
    I don't think that's the conclusion to draw (even tongue-in-cheek); intelligence concentrates upwards, and furthermore regression to the mean is being exposed for the sham propaganda pseudoscience that we all anticipated it would be.

    There's a difference between traits that select for numerical success (which yields more players on the field, each with about-average skills), and traits that select for greater relative success (a smaller number of players, all of whom have elite skills).

    I was in the throes of making an analogy with the vanishingly-small proportion of queens in bee (and ant) populations, and the persistence of queen bees/ants - but frankly that's a bit of a shit analogy ... since the queens do all the reproducing for the hive/colony.

    Fuck it - let's go there.

    Bees (and ants) are almost all neutered females; the exceptions are drones (stingless males who do not work and whose sole role is to mate with the queen) and queens.

    Each colony of ~10K-20K bees has 1 queen (which makes a queen rarer than an individual human with an IQ of about 160) and 200-ish drones (making drones as rare as a human with an IQ of about 135).

    They persist - despite their rarity - because they have a niche. There is no 'eugenic' pressure for the number of queens or drones to expand, but an expansion of their numbers would not be obviously dysgenic (a new queen generally will mean the establishment of another colony).

    Humans with elite cognitive ability have the most obvious and persistent niche in human civilisation; they are the originators of all innovation, which augments the productivity of all humans (they need slightly-less-elite humans to operationalise their innovations: really smart people have almost zero commercial nous).

    Cognitively-elite humans will keep that niche until we develop Artificial Super-Intelligence (ASI) - in a decade or so - at which point it all becomes moot because reproduction will be irrelevant.

    I get your analogy with the drones (and it is a good one). The one issue is that the humans with high IQ don’t seem to pass along their specific genetic material while the drones do plenty of it (as you pointed out). So while those drones (in their niche) are adapted to propagate their genes, the high IQ humans seem less adapted to. And that’s great if we simply want to keep cycling out new human beings to take their spots as high-IQ ones voluntarily vacate it.

    So I agree, it’s great for us as a species, not so great for them as individuals.

    Cognitively-elite humans will keep that niche until we develop Artificial Super-Intelligence (ASI)

    Doh! They are willingly destroying their own niche!

    Peace.

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  99. @Santoculto
    Or my english is going worse or it's your reading/interpretation issues...

    How explain a always- genetic combination scenario when we have a son or a daughter who simply look like a copy of only-one of their progenitors...

    A ''one'' recessive gene... i'm talking about situations where entire phenotype is supressed by other... can understand this*

    Well, if a child has one Italian or Spanish and one “Scandinavian blonde” parent, chances are that the child would look exactly like the Italian or Spanish parent simply because “darker” genes are dominant. Pale skin, blue eyes, and blond hair mean lack of pigment, whereas darker skin/eyes/hair mean the presence of pigment, so that one gene from a “darker” parent dominates in the first generation. The “blonde” genes are still present and will manifest themselves if that child has children with a “blonde” partner: the ratio of darker and paler children would be 1:1.

    That’s just one example, but I guess you get the drift.

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    • Replies: @Logan
    Don't think it works that way. We have definitive evidence from families where a Swede marries a Nigerian and they have multiple kids. The kids may look much like Mom or Dad, or just about anything in between (the norm).
    , @Santoculto
    Please, I wrote thongs I would like this things be used in this debate. I know, superficially, about this subject, recessive and dominant, but I'm talking about, again, when a kid push considerably one of its parents, as if the kid was a copy of him/her. A entire phenotype (all traits) being dominant of one of parents. Yes, I know what I said here is not insightful, just a mere observation...

    But thank you for your gratuitous lesson of genetics!! It's hard to find kind people these days!! :)
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  100. @Jeff Stryker
    Why are Mestizos and Indians so poor in Mexico? Why don't the 10% of the population that is white willing to share the pie?

    For the same reason the likes of Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are reluctant to share the pie with other Americans. History shows that wealth is never shared voluntarily. The wealthy can be forced to share it by the government (progressive taxation; inheritance tax) or by the population (revolutions). The first option is generally less destructive, but not always feasible: the wealthy usually buy the government lock, stock, and barrel (like today in the US).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Someone
    Unfortunately there are a lot of Jeffs out there. On this site they're just anonymous hate mongers. In real life, there are plenty of dim bulb racists and tribal puritans who are easily led to vote against their own interests by any number of Machiavelian politicians.

    Instead of rightly railing against the concentrated power of monopolies, the military and the FIRE industry, the dim bulb demographic's ire is safely channeled towards some ethnic out-group. Kinda explains the happy marriage between Ayn Randian anarcho-capitalism and racist/ethnic purity activists.

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  101. @Yee
    If Westerners want to know the IQ of the Chinese poor, they can take samples of 3rd or above generation North America Chinese.

    Most of them are descendants of the poorest people of China. Only the most desperate poor sold themselves for overseas slave labour back then.

    Anyway, IQ is Pseudo-science. It serve no purpose except making people feel good about themselves, or feel bad. China don't run routine IQ test at school.

    IQ has limited utility, so as long as it is understood as “best catch all metric” rather than some transcendent value. You wouldn’t use VO2 volume to determine the winner of every sport either, would you?

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  102. Logan says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I think you may be perpetuating the error in the article of not allowing enough for the enormous number of sharp brains still to be educated and exploited in China together with a discernible move away from social pressures against creativity - and not just following one's elders.

    I don’t think that’s my error. I am objecting to the idea that Chinese are inherently less innovative or creative, as the article says. My objection is based on historical evidence that China was for most of its history more creative than the West.

    It also seems to me, though I’m no expert, that China suffered a sudden drop in creativity just about the same time the West took a spectacular bounce up.

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  103. Logan says:
    @Santoculto
    It was created by ''white'' INDIVIDUALS and not PEOPLE, and not YOU. It's a cultural appropriation via colectivization of individual achievements.



    ...


    If ''high IQ'' women stop to have kids, ''high IQ'' phenotypes will be umbalancedly expressed by ''masculine'' genes or transmissible by males. It seems will recreate a patriarchism.. poor stupid feminists..

    An odd remark. Anon was, presumably, comparing the aggregate creativity of “white people” vs. other ethnic or racial groups. It’s his model, not mine.

    But we can’t even talk about it if we don’t first agree on what we mean by the term.

    I’ve seen “creativity” used to refer primarily to inventiveness related to the arts or aesthetics. Doesn’t seem right to me. I think creativity is more accurately defined as innovation of any type. Science, engineering, even politics.

    Dictionary (creative):
    adjective
    having the quality or power of creating.
    resulting from originality of thought, expression, etc.; imaginative:
    creative writing.
    originative; productive (usually followed by of).

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  104. Logan says:
    @AnonFromTN
    Well, if a child has one Italian or Spanish and one “Scandinavian blonde” parent, chances are that the child would look exactly like the Italian or Spanish parent simply because “darker” genes are dominant. Pale skin, blue eyes, and blond hair mean lack of pigment, whereas darker skin/eyes/hair mean the presence of pigment, so that one gene from a “darker” parent dominates in the first generation. The “blonde” genes are still present and will manifest themselves if that child has children with a “blonde” partner: the ratio of darker and paler children would be 1:1.

    That's just one example, but I guess you get the drift.

    Don’t think it works that way. We have definitive evidence from families where a Swede marries a Nigerian and they have multiple kids. The kids may look much like Mom or Dad, or just about anything in between (the norm).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I agree here - genetics is weird like this - I recently saw a mixed family at the park (Black and White). They had four kids, two of them looked very white (and only looked like they had slightly darker skin than the mother) and the other two looked to be lighter-skinned Blacks. The facial structure on all of them was more Caucasian.

    I know a Polish guy that married someone from India - two of their kids look completely White (light skin, green eyes) and one daughter looks extra tanned.

    One of my own sons looks like he has absolutely no input from me and looks just as if my wife would have had a brother (I'm from Pakistani background and she is from Swedish background).

    Peace.
    , @AnonFromTN
    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes. I know that many people who call themselves “blacks” in the US have a significant admixture of European genes (apparently, slave owners liked black women). The cross with a Scandinavian blond is like “analytical backcrossing” in genetics: if you cross someone with a partner with all recessives, you can determine the genetic makeup of that individual by the frequency of different traits in children.
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  105. jim jones says:

    The most glaring deficiency in Chinese Culture is the lack of any understanding of Biology. Traditional medicine is based on the existence of Zang-fu organs which control the flow of a mystical energy called Chi.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Here we call this "IQ", a mystical thing.
    , @Random Smartaleck
    But despite that, their traditional medical approach did take them pretty far. A model can be wrong in its explanations yet still yield useful practical results.
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  106. Talha says:
    @Logan
    Don't think it works that way. We have definitive evidence from families where a Swede marries a Nigerian and they have multiple kids. The kids may look much like Mom or Dad, or just about anything in between (the norm).

    I agree here – genetics is weird like this – I recently saw a mixed family at the park (Black and White). They had four kids, two of them looked very white (and only looked like they had slightly darker skin than the mother) and the other two looked to be lighter-skinned Blacks. The facial structure on all of them was more Caucasian.

    I know a Polish guy that married someone from India – two of their kids look completely White (light skin, green eyes) and one daughter looks extra tanned.

    One of my own sons looks like he has absolutely no input from me and looks just as if my wife would have had a brother (I’m from Pakistani background and she is from Swedish background).

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Karl
    106 Talha > One of my own sons looks like he has absolutely no input from me

    maybe he did NOT get any "input" from you
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  107. J says: • Website

    It is very difficult to say anything certain about the enormous human mass of China. Statistics are unreliable. I cannot believe that in one generation they lost 15 points IQ. If they did, it is a tragic loss of potential for humanity all.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    They kill 200 million of potential humans since one child control. I thought since the fact we have a single country with near 1,5 billion is already a treat for all of us, ecologically speaking.

    (200 million or more)
    (killed).

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  108. Truth says:
    @Jeff Stryker
    My Lord you are a dumb Gen Y troll.

    I think Geoffrey has had enough of you clowns questioning his street-cred.

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  109. Someone says:
    @AnonFromTN
    For the same reason the likes of Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are reluctant to share the pie with other Americans. History shows that wealth is never shared voluntarily. The wealthy can be forced to share it by the government (progressive taxation; inheritance tax) or by the population (revolutions). The first option is generally less destructive, but not always feasible: the wealthy usually buy the government lock, stock, and barrel (like today in the US).

    Unfortunately there are a lot of Jeffs out there. On this site they’re just anonymous hate mongers. In real life, there are plenty of dim bulb racists and tribal puritans who are easily led to vote against their own interests by any number of Machiavelian politicians.

    Instead of rightly railing against the concentrated power of monopolies, the military and the FIRE industry, the dim bulb demographic’s ire is safely channeled towards some ethnic out-group. Kinda explains the happy marriage between Ayn Randian anarcho-capitalism and racist/ethnic purity activists.

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  110. Truth says:
    @AnonFromTN
    I suggest you visit Mexico and see for yourself just how wrong all US myths about it are. Mexico City is safer than most US cities, they have more book stores in downtown Mexico City than we have in all of the US, college-educated Mexicans are better informed about the world than Americans with PhD, etc. I don’t know about you, but I was surprised, even though I did not expect to hear anything true from American MSM.

    I haven’t spent much time in Mexico, but I live in New Mexico and speak Spanish fairly well.

    A few hours watching Univision (whereat I once worked) disputes much of this…

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    If you judge any nation by their TV, you’d conclude that every country on Earth is populated by hopeless morons. Besides, Univision is Tex-Mex.
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  111. @Phille
    Then why does Japan with a much higher IQ, bigger population and higher r&d investment lag behind the Western European countries when it comes to scientific output and GDP?

    Many things effect GDP and gdp per capita and wages tend to decline as population increases, industries, pop culture etc….

    Countries like Qatar are wealthy and are clearly low innovation.

    So the argument that Japan is not innovative because it has low gdp holds no water

    And as for reasearch, how exactly are you measuring research?

    Is it patents? Is it research papers? Is it citation rankings?

    Does research count social science papers about the effect of racism on transgender transracial gender neutral children?

    Are fields like biology and medicine that tend to generate thousands upon thousands of research papers lumped in with physics papers?

    What about countries like the US that have papers generated by numerous non whites and non white grad students?

    Ranking a country by research papers is about serious issue because there is no way to sort by quality.

    A physics paper that solves a 50 year old physics problem that barely gets any citations because it is in a extremely difficult speciality is surely higher than the 300,000 cancer research papers produced every year each of them highly cute by the other 299,999 papers

    Of note

    Japan has the world’s highest patents per capita followed by south korea

    So useful research that ends up generating patents is led by japan

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    • Replies: @Karl
    111 Hbd Investor > Japan has the world’s highest patents per capita


    If the USA had never adapted the "would have been obvious to a craftsman of average proficiency" rule of patent law.... it, too, could have a geyser of granted patents

    Possibly more instructive to look at the "per capita number of retainements of a patent attorney by INDIVIDUAL Inventors"

    Because you see, the FIRST thing you do with such an attorney is pay for a "patentability search". In the USA, that's going to run you about a grand.

    Most of the time, that attorney will find "prior art" which is pretty darn close - and advise you that to proceed with him writing an application and submitting it - is at your own risk (of getting shot down by the Examiner).

    That second stage is going to run you more or less $5000.

    If you choose to FIGHT the Examiner's decision, best to budget 1-2 DOZEN thousand dollars
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  112. tamo says:
    @AaronB
    In many ways China has all the pathologies of the West, just on lag time.

    As for creativity, the highly collectivist Jews who occupied an ecological niche that highly favored collectivism and ethnocentrism if anyone did, were quite creative, and Europeans were more creative the more collectivist their cultures were - the rise of individualism coincided with increasingly less creativity.

    Creativity itself is highly collectivist and conformist - only societies that value it highly produce creative people - i.e, societies that value above all else discovering some new aspect of the physical world to control and manipulate - and creative people draw from and rely upon the work of many people before them.

    Only European society, and to some extent Jews who lived in these societies, had that level of materialism.

    No Asian country can match the materialism of the modern West. This may change.

    China was far more creative than Europe before the Industrial Revolution. The last 250-year European domination in technology is an aberration from long-running Chinese domination in technology and economy. By the middle of this century, China has a good chance to reclaim it’s top spot in technology again. Read my comment 49.

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  113. @jim jones
    The most glaring deficiency in Chinese Culture is the lack of any understanding of Biology. Traditional medicine is based on the existence of Zang-fu organs which control the flow of a mystical energy called Chi.

    Here we call this “IQ”, a mystical thing.

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  114. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    … research, led by a Japanese psychologist called Kenya Kura, which has shown that Northeast Asians are genetically less intellectually creative than Europeans. [Why do Northeast Asians Win So Few Nobel Prizes?, By Kenya Kura et al., Comprehensive Psychology, 4: 2015] Northeast Asians, compared to Europeans, have higher gene frequencies of polymorphisms which make people collectivist, socially anxious, and fearful of anything novel. .. they note that scientific innovators tend to combine very high IQ with an optimally low level of collectivism, low social anxiety and low fearfulness of the new. In other words, they have high “Openness-Intellect”, as psychologists term this trait. This psychological profile means that they can think outside the box and don’t care about the offence to vested interests which their new idea will almost certainly result in.

    I’m not sure this really makes sense. After all, when it comes to hard sciences such as biology, physics, and chemistry and MATH, it is impossible to give offense to anyone. Even in the West, those are areas least affected by PC. And in the USSR, those in hard sciences and math had total freedom. It was in the human ‘sciences’ that people had to be careful.

    So, there is little chance that East Asians will give offense to anyone in biology, chemistry, and physics. And esp math. Also, if Asians are anti-anything-novel, why do they take to new technology like crazy? South Korea was ahead of the game in providing fast internet to everyone. Japanese love robots and video games and anything mecha. And Chinese sure went crazy in attacking everything old and embracing everything radical during the Mao yrs. And since the rise of market-economics, the Chinese have been willing to do ANYTHING to get ahead and make money. They pay no heed to tradition.

    And in 19th century Europe, Germany was more autocratic than certain other European nations, but it was a great center of science and modern learning. And the Anglo formula was never just individualism and freedom. It was a combination of individualism and extreme-mindfulness of what peers thought. It was about conforming to the high standards of British intellectual institutions. So, the issue isn’t always individualism vs conformism but conformism vs conformism. It depends on what you conform to. If you are mindful about conforming to repressive dogma(like Marxist theology or Confucian texts), then you’ll be trapped. But if you’re mindful about conforming to high standards of intellectual inquiry(empiricism and reason), then you can achieve much. So, people like Darwin weren’t maverick rebels who went against the grain. If anything, they were steeped in British institutional norms and did serious work to conform to those intellectual standards.

    Still, Asian personality may have a repressive effect on full creativity and individuality. Maybe, there are fewer variations of personality in East Asia, or there are only starkly different ones whereas the West has subtle gradations of various kinds of personalities. Perhaps, nuances in personality make for more creativity. Also, it could be hormonal. Maybe Asians have lower levels of hormones and this lends less fuel to passion and drive. Maybe Asian emotions are more cold-blooded than warm-blooded. It’s like cold-blooded animals need the heat from outside sources. In contrast, warm-blooded animals generate heat from the inside. Maybe Asian intelligence tends to be less stellar because the heat to drive the passion has to come from the outside.

    There is also the issue of respect for older people. This is a good thing socially but in not so much in academics. If there’s a very bright Japanese guy who can do great work, he may suppress his own ideas out of deference to older academics who are past their prime.

    Another problem is the status-madness of Asian academic culture. Because so much emphasis is placed on the prestige of going to a good school, most students expend most of their energies on studying for tests to enter good schools. But instead of seeing the college experience as the prime time to do serious work, Asian students began to grow lax just then. They figure, “I made it to a top college, so I’m going to take it easy.” So, colleges are treated as vacations in Asia. They think the real work comes in high school and after college. College is respite between the two.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Human sciences are the basis of human condition, so called self awareness. Without this and humans are just like giant weird ants. It's about critical thinking and not exactly what we have today. Human science is: Why study science? It's science before science. Why be ethical? It's morality too. It's not the most difficult stuff human mind can reach but it's the most basic, and exactly because the bankruptcy of human science fundamentally about philosophy, and not just since today (don't forget when politically correct was everything about religion), western civilization is being imploded.
    , @Amen

    Another problem is the status-madness of Asian academic culture. Because so much emphasis is placed on the prestige of going to a good school, most students expend most of their energies on studying for tests to enter good schools.
     
    That pretty much describes most top students in America today, regardless of ethnicity. The chase for prestige has destroyed real learning in our schools. Our smartest kids no longer learn for the sake of learning, they learn only to excel in exams, while running themselves ragged participating in extracurricular activities they have little real interest in just so they could get into a prestigious college, then graduate and start a lucrative career by tapping into the alumni network. Holistic admission and the chase for prestige are destroying real learning, innovation and creativity in America.

    Meanwhile, if you are a CEO/politician wannabe, startup founder, doctor, scientist, mathematician or in any field in the humanities and want to be taken seriously in your field, you pretty much have to graduate from one of these elite schools to be taken seriously, because their graduates have formed a country club and only prop up those who went to the same schools.

    The Traitorous Eight plays a big role in taking America down this rabbit hole. It's a system of privilege further perpetuating privilege.

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  115. @J
    It is very difficult to say anything certain about the enormous human mass of China. Statistics are unreliable. I cannot believe that in one generation they lost 15 points IQ. If they did, it is a tragic loss of potential for humanity all.

    They kill 200 million of potential humans since one child control. I thought since the fact we have a single country with near 1,5 billion is already a treat for all of us, ecologically speaking.

    (200 million or more)
    (killed).

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  116. @AnonFromTN
    Well, if a child has one Italian or Spanish and one “Scandinavian blonde” parent, chances are that the child would look exactly like the Italian or Spanish parent simply because “darker” genes are dominant. Pale skin, blue eyes, and blond hair mean lack of pigment, whereas darker skin/eyes/hair mean the presence of pigment, so that one gene from a “darker” parent dominates in the first generation. The “blonde” genes are still present and will manifest themselves if that child has children with a “blonde” partner: the ratio of darker and paler children would be 1:1.

    That's just one example, but I guess you get the drift.

    Please, I wrote thongs I would like this things be used in this debate. I know, superficially, about this subject, recessive and dominant, but I’m talking about, again, when a kid push considerably one of its parents, as if the kid was a copy of him/her. A entire phenotype (all traits) being dominant of one of parents. Yes, I know what I said here is not insightful, just a mere observation…

    But thank you for your gratuitous lesson of genetics!! It’s hard to find kind people these days!! :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    AnonFromTN is an actual scientist and this is his specialization. He could probably explain the details of dominance through expressed alleles via protein activation/or lack of there of. He spared you.
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  117. bucky says:

    Actually, the problem with this article is that it is too centric on the nation-state.

    Technically, China is a nation-state on the same level as Sweden is a nation-state.

    In reality, China is more akin to continental Europe. There is a reason why they use the term, “civilizational state”.

    And as well, the map does not include Taiwan, which is largely populated by Han Chinese.

    The Alt-Right tends to make the argument that they want to make the United States like Israel. An ethnostate. But Israel is the size of New Jersey. Making the United States an ethnostate would be more like making all of the Middle East or all of Europe on big ethnostate. If you took all of China, ignored all of the crappy areas to the west, you get a highly productive population akin to Japan in a geographic region that is similar in size to Japan itself. And without an underclass of minorities causing crime like you have in Western countries.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    One of the sanest replies to the thread. There is pretty significant genetic variation within China itself.
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  118. @Truth
    I haven't spent much time in Mexico, but I live in New Mexico and speak Spanish fairly well.

    A few hours watching Univision (whereat I once worked) disputes much of this...

    If you judge any nation by their TV, you’d conclude that every country on Earth is populated by hopeless morons. Besides, Univision is Tex-Mex.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Univision, (extremely short version here) was started by a bunch of upper-middle class Cubans to appeal to the Mexican Hoi polloi. And they have have done a very good job, as per ratings. Their chief-rival, Telemundo is a Puerto-Rican outfit that evolved the same way; and is even lower on the intellect scale if this is possible.
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  119. @Anatoly Karlin
    Sure, but the Nature Index (unlike Nobel Prizes) is a current measure of high quality scientific output, i.e. published in the world's top few dozen journals.

    The nature index still has flaws, they look only at papers written in english and they give more points to citations from other countries

    In addition they lump in cancer research and biology journals with journals containing real science

    Clearly this would result a bias against non english speaking countries and also a bias against highly specialized and more difficult research.

    A super string paper could be revolutionary yet barely cited due to the low number of super string specialists yet get less citations than cancer paper that gets cited thousands of times due to the vast number of cancer researchers and all the funding that cancer research gets

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  120. @bucky
    Actually, the problem with this article is that it is too centric on the nation-state.

    Technically, China is a nation-state on the same level as Sweden is a nation-state.

    In reality, China is more akin to continental Europe. There is a reason why they use the term, "civilizational state".

    And as well, the map does not include Taiwan, which is largely populated by Han Chinese.

    The Alt-Right tends to make the argument that they want to make the United States like Israel. An ethnostate. But Israel is the size of New Jersey. Making the United States an ethnostate would be more like making all of the Middle East or all of Europe on big ethnostate. If you took all of China, ignored all of the crappy areas to the west, you get a highly productive population akin to Japan in a geographic region that is similar in size to Japan itself. And without an underclass of minorities causing crime like you have in Western countries.

    One of the sanest replies to the thread. There is pretty significant genetic variation within China itself.

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  121. @Anon
    ... research, led by a Japanese psychologist called Kenya Kura, which has shown that Northeast Asians are genetically less intellectually creative than Europeans. [Why do Northeast Asians Win So Few Nobel Prizes?, By Kenya Kura et al., Comprehensive Psychology, 4: 2015] Northeast Asians, compared to Europeans, have higher gene frequencies of polymorphisms which make people collectivist, socially anxious, and fearful of anything novel. .. they note that scientific innovators tend to combine very high IQ with an optimally low level of collectivism, low social anxiety and low fearfulness of the new. In other words, they have high “Openness-Intellect”, as psychologists term this trait. This psychological profile means that they can think outside the box and don’t care about the offence to vested interests which their new idea will almost certainly result in.

    I'm not sure this really makes sense. After all, when it comes to hard sciences such as biology, physics, and chemistry and MATH, it is impossible to give offense to anyone. Even in the West, those are areas least affected by PC. And in the USSR, those in hard sciences and math had total freedom. It was in the human 'sciences' that people had to be careful.

    So, there is little chance that East Asians will give offense to anyone in biology, chemistry, and physics. And esp math. Also, if Asians are anti-anything-novel, why do they take to new technology like crazy? South Korea was ahead of the game in providing fast internet to everyone. Japanese love robots and video games and anything mecha. And Chinese sure went crazy in attacking everything old and embracing everything radical during the Mao yrs. And since the rise of market-economics, the Chinese have been willing to do ANYTHING to get ahead and make money. They pay no heed to tradition.

    And in 19th century Europe, Germany was more autocratic than certain other European nations, but it was a great center of science and modern learning. And the Anglo formula was never just individualism and freedom. It was a combination of individualism and extreme-mindfulness of what peers thought. It was about conforming to the high standards of British intellectual institutions. So, the issue isn't always individualism vs conformism but conformism vs conformism. It depends on what you conform to. If you are mindful about conforming to repressive dogma(like Marxist theology or Confucian texts), then you'll be trapped. But if you're mindful about conforming to high standards of intellectual inquiry(empiricism and reason), then you can achieve much. So, people like Darwin weren't maverick rebels who went against the grain. If anything, they were steeped in British institutional norms and did serious work to conform to those intellectual standards.

    Still, Asian personality may have a repressive effect on full creativity and individuality. Maybe, there are fewer variations of personality in East Asia, or there are only starkly different ones whereas the West has subtle gradations of various kinds of personalities. Perhaps, nuances in personality make for more creativity. Also, it could be hormonal. Maybe Asians have lower levels of hormones and this lends less fuel to passion and drive. Maybe Asian emotions are more cold-blooded than warm-blooded. It's like cold-blooded animals need the heat from outside sources. In contrast, warm-blooded animals generate heat from the inside. Maybe Asian intelligence tends to be less stellar because the heat to drive the passion has to come from the outside.

    There is also the issue of respect for older people. This is a good thing socially but in not so much in academics. If there's a very bright Japanese guy who can do great work, he may suppress his own ideas out of deference to older academics who are past their prime.

    Another problem is the status-madness of Asian academic culture. Because so much emphasis is placed on the prestige of going to a good school, most students expend most of their energies on studying for tests to enter good schools. But instead of seeing the college experience as the prime time to do serious work, Asian students began to grow lax just then. They figure, "I made it to a top college, so I'm going to take it easy." So, colleges are treated as vacations in Asia. They think the real work comes in high school and after college. College is respite between the two.

    Human sciences are the basis of human condition, so called self awareness. Without this and humans are just like giant weird ants. It’s about critical thinking and not exactly what we have today. Human science is: Why study science? It’s science before science. Why be ethical? It’s morality too. It’s not the most difficult stuff human mind can reach but it’s the most basic, and exactly because the bankruptcy of human science fundamentally about philosophy, and not just since today (don’t forget when politically correct was everything about religion), western civilization is being imploded.

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  122. @Another German Reader
    expelling Jews:

    Forget about it! Adolf gave them an unassailable armour.

    expelling Black:

    Children of Black US GIs and German women - not possible as they are citizen from the start.

    SS-African could be much better regulated - especially the recent illegal arrivals from Med.

    SS-Africans, who came as diplomat/businessmen/college-students are not troublemakers.

    expelling Muslims:

    The former guest-workers and their (grand)children are partially integrated, if their background was from urban regions of home country.

    The ones from the rural regions of Anatolia & MENA are not integrated, but a high portion has received citizenship in 1980s/1990s. Only a dictatorship could deport them.

    The recent arrivals from the Med will probably deported, when the Merkel era ends in 2021.

    expelling other migrants:

    There are migrants from Vietnam, the Caucasus, former Yugoslavia and Latin-America. Most are relatively integrated and/or are in low numbers and mostly keep their heads down. Troublesome migrants from these groups are already being deported.

    In the end: Germany/W-Europe will be diverse even if stop all migration right away. The trouble are jihadists with citizenship and SS-Africa's surplus sons in the next century.

    You’re a cuck.

    The Hitler card is gone. It’s the Caucasian RCC/Zioevangizer male who is the cause of our problems.

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don’t belong.

    Guest worker in Germany can cover Spaniards, Portuguese and Turks. The Turks will have to go.

    A lot of diversity can be reversed.

    Of course, you will not help. You’re too busy worrying about the shithole Vietnam.

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    • Replies: @Truth

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don’t belong.
     
    Listen to Tillie and learn there, Schmidt; she knows her stuff.
    , @Another German Reader
    I get a nice paycheck to worry about that shithole and the other shithole in that region. That's how I feed the family (and Merkel's adopted sons for now).

    If Hitler had beeen smart he would have just be content with Sudetenland & Austria and deported them Juice to British Palestine. Cold War would have been much more interesting with Germany XL.

    People like me are content with deporting all illegal migrants, abolishing the asylum-laws and strong safe borders. Furthermore expanding the prison-terms to jail hundred-thousands of Paper-Europeans, who are Jihadist. There is no need to go full-gas-chamber on the issue.

    Here is a little info for you:

    1. AfD is already polling at road-block-Level in E-Germany with aprox. 20 -25%. The three state-elections next year will force Merkel to handover the leadership of the CDU. The next chancellor in 2021 will have to be much closer to the Orban-Salvini line or else the AfD might control the government in 2025.

    2. Eastern-German men make up 70% of soldiers in the Bundeswehr. Currently the officer-corps is still West-German, but by 2025 the officer-corps will nearly 80% East-German. Merkel her cronies know about the potential for a coup d'etat, that's why they have been starving the Bundeswehr of funds - but Trump put an end to this.

    3. The Western European governments all know that during the last French presidential elections, the overwhelming majority of French police-officers and active soldiers have voted for Le Pen. This applies to the Swedish Forces/police and the Swedish Democrats as well.

    4. Day of Reckoning starts next week with the Swedish elections.

    In darker corners of the web, I would call you a shill/JIDF/Sorosbitch/Shareblue/glowinthedark/Lügenpresse-negro. But here I will call you a lazy provocateur.

    Long-term Unz.com-Readers like me recognize the new kind of commenters here, who spend alot of time insulting other commenters.

    @ Ron Unz: I hope you keep an eye on the IP-adresses and the new influx of retards into this site.

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  123. Truth says:
    @AnonFromTN
    If you judge any nation by their TV, you’d conclude that every country on Earth is populated by hopeless morons. Besides, Univision is Tex-Mex.

    Univision, (extremely short version here) was started by a bunch of upper-middle class Cubans to appeal to the Mexican Hoi polloi. And they have have done a very good job, as per ratings. Their chief-rival, Telemundo is a Puerto-Rican outfit that evolved the same way; and is even lower on the intellect scale if this is possible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Are they intellectually inferior to the American TV? That would be quite an achievement.
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  124. @Santoculto
    Please, I wrote thongs I would like this things be used in this debate. I know, superficially, about this subject, recessive and dominant, but I'm talking about, again, when a kid push considerably one of its parents, as if the kid was a copy of him/her. A entire phenotype (all traits) being dominant of one of parents. Yes, I know what I said here is not insightful, just a mere observation...

    But thank you for your gratuitous lesson of genetics!! It's hard to find kind people these days!! :)

    AnonFromTN is an actual scientist and this is his specialization. He could probably explain the details of dominance through expressed alleles via protein activation/or lack of there of. He spared you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    I don't think so... A lot of experts are not absolutely understandable of their pet-knowledge...

    Maybe he don't understand my english, he even answer the points i put, he just take the parts he believe understood and use it to teach me the basics of genetics.

    Interestingly you have some interest on me, the reciprocal is impossible. I just remember you repeating the same stupid things since, 8 years ago** Just repeating your insecurities and supposed supremacy of ''your'' people...

    Do yu can detect where he refute or even talk about my points*

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  125. Truth says:
    @attilathehen
    You're a cuck.

    The Hitler card is gone. It's the Caucasian RCC/Zioevangizer male who is the cause of our problems.

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don't belong.

    Guest worker in Germany can cover Spaniards, Portuguese and Turks. The Turks will have to go.

    A lot of diversity can be reversed.

    Of course, you will not help. You're too busy worrying about the shithole Vietnam.

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don’t belong.

    Listen to Tillie and learn there, Schmidt; she knows her stuff.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    Attila has no idea what the ructions of immigration from Germany to the US are-she's lived in an exurb somewhere all her life and never traveled anywhere out of the country.

    Most blacks in Europe could not possibly reach the US or they already would have.

    Even the forgotten children of black serviceman around the bases, of which there are many, cannot qualify for US citizenship.

    Seemingly, the US only wants Red Indians from Central America.

    Turks are now 3rd generation Germans so it would be hard to get rid of them.
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  126. @Logan
    Don't think it works that way. We have definitive evidence from families where a Swede marries a Nigerian and they have multiple kids. The kids may look much like Mom or Dad, or just about anything in between (the norm).

    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes. I know that many people who call themselves “blacks” in the US have a significant admixture of European genes (apparently, slave owners liked black women). The cross with a Scandinavian blond is like “analytical backcrossing” in genetics: if you cross someone with a partner with all recessives, you can determine the genetic makeup of that individual by the frequency of different traits in children.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Haploinsufficiency can cause heterozygous expression, no?
    , @Truth

    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes.

     

    Wey'll....

    //www.cbsnews.com/news/white-baby-shocks-black-parents-medically-possible/
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  127. @AnonFromTN
    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes. I know that many people who call themselves “blacks” in the US have a significant admixture of European genes (apparently, slave owners liked black women). The cross with a Scandinavian blond is like “analytical backcrossing” in genetics: if you cross someone with a partner with all recessives, you can determine the genetic makeup of that individual by the frequency of different traits in children.

    Haploinsufficiency can cause heterozygous expression, no?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Yes, but in most cases we are fine with just one allele working. Swedish blonds don’t have any pigment in their skin (humans have 6 or 8 genes that determine skin color, both alleles are active, so we have 13 or 17 gradations of that), their eyes (the difference between blue, gray, and green is determined by the structure of the iris w/o pigment; the difference between all hues of brown and black eyes is determined by iris structure with pigment), and hair (we have several genes for the production of pigment in the hair, so we can have different hair colors, depending how many you have, like skin). These genes yield obvious results, most are not as obvious, so that’s why I used color as an example.
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  128. FKA Max says: • Website
    @m___

    Your comment
     
    This is as close as we got over the last three months to seeing the needed mindset to make public communication (on unz.com) associative and of quality! Opening a thread to analyze the article of Welton in depth would be appropriate now, and the pages would steer away of the author - commenter gap, of author - commenter being on different intellectual levels, the bread-writing incentive diminished. Correct mistakes, rewrite, bring in meaningful variables, additional evidence, it all can be done "on-line", and give the internet quality meaning. Ultimately, who takes credit for better ideas, better theory, more insightful analysis, clearer writing is less important then authorship and ego boosting, coining, self-promoting. The "warrior gene" is indeed not very beneficial to better public understanding.

    Will get back to you concerning content. For now, could it be that the correlation between IQ and wealth - power is not so much as flawed, but simply not linear, since the association up to say 130 IQ points and relative dominance in society at large seems to break there-after?

    The Art of Productive Laziness

    Progress isn’t made by early risers. It’s made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.’ Robert Heinlein (1907 – 1988)
    [...]
    This theory has existed for many years and applied in a number of interesting ways. One of the most famous of these was in the Prussian Army.
    Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke (1800 – 1891) was a German Generalfeldmarschall. The chief of staff of the Prussian Army for thirty years, he is widely regarded as one of the great strategists of the latter half of the 1800s, and the creator of a new, more modern method, of directing armies in the field.
    Moltke had a particular insight to and approach to categorising his officer corps, something which lives on to this day within many armed forces, and something which can apply to all forms of leadership.- https://pmiwdc.org/article/peter-taylor/art-productive-laziness Archived link: http://archive.is/aFosN

    There are some other additional aspects that don’t often get mentioned in race realist circles regarding the creativity and productivity (both of which presumably require above-average intelligence) gap between Europeans (particularly historically Protestant European countries and the Anglosphere) and Northeast Asians. I recently commented on this:

    Mr. Sailer this chart might be of interest to you, from the Economist. 6.7%, in 2013, of household spending in South Korea went towards education

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-flynn-effect-in-china/#comment-2478207

    Europeans are also extremely productive per hours worked. South Koreans, for example, work 800 hours more per year than Germans

    https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2478701

    The Chinese work about as much as the South Koreans [...] The average Chinese worker works between 2,000-2,200 hours every year in China, [...] “It may have been one of the secrets that help created the ‘China miracle’ but it has created a lot of problems,” Mr. Lai said, citing the frequency of workplace accidents, which tend to happen when workers are tired. “It is not sustainable.”

    https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2479487

    Race realists often associate myopia with genetic intelligence and since Northeast Asia has experienced an unprecedented myopia boom over the last decades and IQ test scores have risen in tandem, they take that as proof that Northeast Asians are of superior intelligence and genetic stock, but research has shown that myopia is not an indicator of intelligence but rather effort/ambition:

    The reason East Asians do so well on IQ tests and in intelligence competitions, etc., is the same reason they have high rates of myopia, they spend a lot of time indoors studying from a young age on:

    East Asia has been gripped by an unprecedented rise in myopia, also known as short-sightedness. Sixty years ago, 10–20% of the Chinese population was short-sighted. Today, up to 90% of teenagers and young adults are. In Seoul, a whopping 96.5% of 19-year-old men are short-sighted.[]
    [...]
    To put it crudely, myopia is not the ophthalmic sign of intelligence, rather it marks the striver”, says Alireza Mirshahi.

    https://www.unz.com/article/americas-cultural-revolution-the-obsession-with-self-esteem/#comment-2295700 and https://www.unz.com/jthompson/boost-your-iq/#comment-2078174

    A lot of recent Northeast Asian economic, IQ test, etc. outperformance is simply due to hard work and effort, and not genetic intelligence, etc. as many “race realists” like to claim.

    The World’s Most Productive People

    Source: https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2478701 and https://web.archive.org/web/20180828192612/https://conorneill.com/2018/01/24/the-worlds-most-productive-people/

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    • Replies: @m___
    Interesting take, additionally, pointing to Race Realists, we have the impression, and this is disconnected slightly from the thought in your thread, that they quantify the distance in intelligence between races as far more important (not in numbers, that we will not contest) but as to their phenotype, compared to the "lucky score" of highly endowed individuals within these race groups.

    This is our way of pointing to the view that in Western societies, more as today in China, "talent" is selected out of the single most spot of importance, the elite of power and capital. It sounds un-intuitive for the power elites to have outliers do their thinking and implement it, but that with AI and for now big data searches could brake the general idiocy of power play. This seems to be better implemented by China these days, also the circle around Putin seems ahead in rational analysis incorporation, in the long term prospective allowance of policies and polities ahead. As a macro-view it makes these entities slightly stand out, regardlessly of their mean and average IQ of population.
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  129. @Daniel Chieh
    Haploinsufficiency can cause heterozygous expression, no?

    Yes, but in most cases we are fine with just one allele working. Swedish blonds don’t have any pigment in their skin (humans have 6 or 8 genes that determine skin color, both alleles are active, so we have 13 or 17 gradations of that), their eyes (the difference between blue, gray, and green is determined by the structure of the iris w/o pigment; the difference between all hues of brown and black eyes is determined by iris structure with pigment), and hair (we have several genes for the production of pigment in the hair, so we can have different hair colors, depending how many you have, like skin). These genes yield obvious results, most are not as obvious, so that’s why I used color as an example.

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  130. @Truth
    Univision, (extremely short version here) was started by a bunch of upper-middle class Cubans to appeal to the Mexican Hoi polloi. And they have have done a very good job, as per ratings. Their chief-rival, Telemundo is a Puerto-Rican outfit that evolved the same way; and is even lower on the intellect scale if this is possible.

    Are they intellectually inferior to the American TV? That would be quite an achievement.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIfLAmPd-n8
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  131. Truth says:
    @AnonFromTN
    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes. I know that many people who call themselves “blacks” in the US have a significant admixture of European genes (apparently, slave owners liked black women). The cross with a Scandinavian blond is like “analytical backcrossing” in genetics: if you cross someone with a partner with all recessives, you can determine the genetic makeup of that individual by the frequency of different traits in children.

    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes.

    Wey’ll….

    //www.cbsnews.com/news/white-baby-shocks-black-parents-medically-possible/

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Two people with dominant phenotype (black) can have a child with recessive phenotype (white), if both are heterozygotes. The same is true for two brown-eyed people: they can have a blue-eyed child, if they are heterozygotes. However, two blue-eyed people cannot possibly have a brown-eyed child (the participation of the third person in this case is 100% assured).
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  132. @jim jones
    The most glaring deficiency in Chinese Culture is the lack of any understanding of Biology. Traditional medicine is based on the existence of Zang-fu organs which control the flow of a mystical energy called Chi.

    But despite that, their traditional medical approach did take them pretty far. A model can be wrong in its explanations yet still yield useful practical results.

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  133. tamo says:

    America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, An America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat in the world. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries’ inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens’ novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages).
    You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN’T CHINA—– IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. Also before the Industrial Revolution the technologically backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization.

    Reply 5 3

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    The U.S. and the Soviets benefited greatly post-WW 2 from Operation Paperclip and Operation Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim , respectively:

    Throughout its operations to 1990, Operation Paperclip imported 1,600 men, as part of the intellectual reparations owed to the United States and the UK, some $10 billion in patents and industrial processes.[20][24:Naimark. 206 (Naimark cites Gimbel, John Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany) The $10 billion compare to the 1948 US GDP $258 billion, and to the total Marshall plan (1948–52) expenditure of $13 billion, of which Germany received $1.4 billion (partly as loans).]

    – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#Scientists
     

    - https://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-complains-trump-doesnt-respect-the-narrative-under-his-presidency-the-american-dream-would-be-primarily-reserved-for-americans/#comment-1502881

    $10 billion in 1948 was about 4% of US GDP, which would be about $800 billion in today's money as a percentage of the current U.S. GDP of about $ 20 trillion.

    Science, Technology, and Reparations.
    Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany.
    John Gimbel. Stanford University Press

    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/248/4960/1241.1.pdf-extract.jpeg

    Source: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/248/4960/1241.1

    , @Eric Novak
    Americans are Germans and British. They steal ideas from each other in the same way Germans in Germany steal from other Germans.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    LOEL - yes, even Louder than Mike-at-Mike-dot-Mike! To pick rough numbers, 1750 to 1915 in America had to be the best time and place ever in history to be an inventor. Man, I'd have loved to have had the money just for tools, including some metal-working stuff, (maybe some glass-blowing equipment) and basic materials that were available, and a small lab! (A saloon nearby with bar-girls would have, of course, been nice too. Oh, and to live in a town with a sheriff that can shoot. OK, OK, I try not to get all my history from the movies like certain, ahem, commenters here. ;-}

    Somewhat OT, but it is about China: It's not all genetics/HBD, people. America is, as we all know, except Godfree Roberts, not anything like the free, libertarian society it used to be (understand, Roberts?). What I've been encouraged about regarding China has been their nearly-free-market healthcare system. It's not that they have the medical science up to Western levels completely. It's the way things run. Freedom works wonders! Personal experience in the Chinese free-market healtcare system, and Part 2, Part 3 and a brief postscript.
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  134. @attilathehen
    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.

    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.

    There’s a real slant to most of these comments isn’t there? This should be nipped in the bud before the whole thing slopes downward. Just zip it I say. Quit dragon down the level of discourse and make it more celestial.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    As I have commented before, most commentators on this website and several others can be grouped into 3 types: RCCers who accept black/Asian priests-popes, insane anti-Semites and Western males involved with Asian females.

    Many commentators scribble about the JQ: Jewish Question. When I found out that many commentators are involved with Asian females this cleared up many of the contradictions and hypocrisy posted by these commentators. John Derbyshire is exhibit A.

    My language is mild compared to what I have seen from other commentators. I had to give the Asian female problem a name: Asian Poontang Problem (APP). This is why I ask the Western commentators if they are involved with Asian women. If they are, they are worthless to the West.

    The German Reader is not involved with Asian female, but I have a feeling he is planning on this in the future. Hence his degenerate interest in Vietnam. He will not fight for his true country - Germany.

    Is there APP in your life?
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  135. @Truth

    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes.

     

    Wey'll....

    //www.cbsnews.com/news/white-baby-shocks-black-parents-medically-possible/

    Two people with dominant phenotype (black) can have a child with recessive phenotype (white), if both are heterozygotes. The same is true for two brown-eyed people: they can have a blue-eyed child, if they are heterozygotes. However, two blue-eyed people cannot possibly have a brown-eyed child (the participation of the third person in this case is 100% assured).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Eric Novak
    Two Africans with no European ancestors can produce a white child. You are a troll.
    , @Jeff Stryker
    America simply attracted many entrepreneurs from Europe after the Civil War.

    At that point, industrialization and a booming surplus economy fueled invention. Levi Strauss, for example, was a German Jew who discovered that miners would purchase jeans. For example.

    The other colonies mostly attracted completely impoverished English settlers from Dickensian conditions in UK.
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  136. Truth says:
    @AnonFromTN
    Are they intellectually inferior to the American TV? That would be quite an achievement.

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  137. @Hbd investor
    The idea that East Asians are less creative is laughable

    The paper linked showing east asians are less creative is pure malarkey, and the author simply states that asians are more collective and conservative and then uses that for an explanation for why the Europeans were the first to industrialize.

    The ability to invent, is highly dependent on factors such as a demand to invent, and the resources and time needed.

    Typically pre industrial scientific advances were done by the idle rich aristocracy who lived lives of luxury as land owners who collected rent, because they were the only ones who could afford education and had the wealth to buy scientific equipment not because they were more creative and intelligent than the peasants

    They had the money to order craftsman to build things like test tubes, and order peasants to collect various rocks and chemicals

    If we look at say cooking, say chicken.

    The chinese had far more numerous recipes to boil, steam, deepfry, bake, grill, smoke

    Or how about swords?

    European swords

    https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/sword_types_overview.gif

    Meanwhile the chinese had numerous types of swords

    Not only did they have the stiff ones used by historical europe, they made scimitars, a flexible whiplike sword (dao), tiger hook swords, and the 9 ring sword

    So now you are probably asking, if the chinese are indeed creative then why didn’t they industrialize?

    This has all been explained by Karl Marx and by Thanos

    In order to do science, you need capital accumulation

    The aristocracy historically did science because they had capital

    China never had capital accumulation, since all excess capital went to serve a ever growing population

    Europe on the other hand had The black death, which led to a smaller population that inherited wealth from a larger population, the black death ended the middle ages and started the Renaissance

    This is the same reason why Thanos wanted to wipe out half of earths population, so the surviving half would have plenty of resources and be able to pursue and advance science rather than science stagnating due to capital and resources being split amongst a massive population.

    The entire modern world was created by Europeans. What wealth did Issac Newton or Gauss or Tesla need for their genius? None.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    They needed some wealth, or they would have been working as serfs; or in a factory.

    "Hey, would somebody tell Newton to shut the fuck up and run that plow ox through the potato field..."

    , @Hbd investor
    >The entire modern world was created by Europeans. What wealth did Issac Newton or Gauss or Tesla need for their genius? None.

    Are you dumb? The equivalent of no wealth would be a group of people waking up on a formerly deserted island.

    The car sitting in your garage at one point was nothing more than a bunch of dirt, plants, animals and rocks.

    Issac Newton, had numerous things and a lifestyle where other people grew his food, built his house, made his clothes, paid for his lab in Cambridge, numerous craftsmen built the equipment in his lab. Newton performed over 400+ chemistry experiments, had craftsman that built catapults, ramps, balls, pendulums, gears and pulleys to measure time various ramps made of various materials to discover friction. He had a lifestyle where he received good nutrition and health from childhood, received education, and had numerous colleagues that were equally educated he regularly traveled around to other universities to bounce around ideas and theories.

    The act of wealth creation is taking the dirt, plants, animals and rocks around us and turning that into things we want like swords, papers, to microchips and planes.

    Likewise the discovery of gunpowder by china, came from someone exploring a cave and finding a white powder (salt peter) and harvesting it, then someone finding pyrite (fools gold) and heating it to release the sulfur, and then creating charcoal from wood by heating the wood so that all the moisture is released but the wood is not burned. Then mixing these 3 ingredients in the right ratios to cause a explosion. Your civilization is not going to discover gunpowder without a lot of labor and free time.

    And this is why wealth is needed for scientific discovery, because it takes time, equipment and education. Newton didn’t wake up one day and through the magic of being white discover the gravitational constant. He dropped things and measured the time with pendulums, rolled balls down ramps, shot balls using mini catapults

    Having thanos greatly helps this process because your parents and your uncles, aunts and cousins dying means you now get all the gold they saved up, all their cows, all their jewelry etc… And now you suddenly have the wealth to quit your job as a farmer and lounge around all day or focus on your hobby of science
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  138. @Daniel Chieh
    AnonFromTN is an actual scientist and this is his specialization. He could probably explain the details of dominance through expressed alleles via protein activation/or lack of there of. He spared you.

    I don’t think so… A lot of experts are not absolutely understandable of their pet-knowledge…

    Maybe he don’t understand my english, he even answer the points i put, he just take the parts he believe understood and use it to teach me the basics of genetics.

    Interestingly you have some interest on me, the reciprocal is impossible. I just remember you repeating the same stupid things since, 8 years ago** Just repeating your insecurities and supposed supremacy of ”your” people…

    Do yu can detect where he refute or even talk about my points*

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I am glad you enjoy the "me" in your fantasy world. I didn't even post here prior to 2016 and your understanding of genetics is evidently as sound as your memory.
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  139. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo
    America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, An America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat in the world. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries' inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens' novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages).
    You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN'T CHINA----- IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. Also before the Industrial Revolution the technologically backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization.

    Reply 5 3

    The U.S. and the Soviets benefited greatly post-WW 2 from Operation Paperclip and Operation Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim , respectively:

    Throughout its operations to 1990, Operation Paperclip imported 1,600 men, as part of the intellectual reparations owed to the United States and the UK, some $10 billion in patents and industrial processes.[20][24:Naimark. 206 (Naimark cites Gimbel, John Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany) The $10 billion compare to the 1948 US GDP $258 billion, and to the total Marshall plan (1948–52) expenditure of $13 billion, of which Germany received $1.4 billion (partly as loans).]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#Scientists

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-complains-trump-doesnt-respect-the-narrative-under-his-presidency-the-american-dream-would-be-primarily-reserved-for-americans/#comment-1502881

    $10 billion in 1948 was about 4% of US GDP, which would be about $800 billion in today’s money as a percentage of the current U.S. GDP of about $ 20 trillion.

    Science, Technology, and Reparations.
    Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany.
    John Gimbel. Stanford University Press

    Source: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/248/4960/1241.1

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  140. @AnonFromTN
    Who cares what the IQ sect believes? Their religion is no less ridiculous than the Mormon faith.

    The collective suicide of the so-called West appears irreversible. So, if the humanity survives (i.e., if the Empire in its death throes does not start WWIII), the civilization torch-bearers would be either East Asians (including China), or Eastern Europeans (including Russia), or Latin Americans (including … gasp… Mexico). Most likely all of the above. Anyway, as the saying goes, “we can predict everything, except the future”.

    You’ve made no case against the strong predictive power of IQ as measured by many tests, including SAT/ACT tests in the US.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Tests predict the results of other tests. Key point is, do the results of any test reflect the intelligence of a person? To the best of my knowledge, the answer is a resounding “no”.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    IQ has strong links to working memory, but working memory isn't the final metric of all intellectual function. There's actually pretty decent evidence that weakness in some parts of the brain improve creativity, for example, which is important for say, artistic creation. Executive function has a weak correlation as well.

    It's fine for a casual measure but I do understand from a scientist's perspective that it's really not granular enough. It's like measuring beats per second and using it as universal measure of health. Yes, athletes have lower heartbeats per second, usually. But weightlifting might have nothing to do with it.
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  141. @AnonFromTN
    Two people with dominant phenotype (black) can have a child with recessive phenotype (white), if both are heterozygotes. The same is true for two brown-eyed people: they can have a blue-eyed child, if they are heterozygotes. However, two blue-eyed people cannot possibly have a brown-eyed child (the participation of the third person in this case is 100% assured).

    Two Africans with no European ancestors can produce a white child. You are a troll.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Two people with dominant phenotype (black) can have a child with recessive phenotype (white), if both are heterozygotes.
     
    , @AnonFromTN
    Two self-claimed Africans with European genes can produce a white child. Without being heterozygotes they can’t. Didn’t I explain it clearly enough?
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  142. @Santoculto
    I don't think so... A lot of experts are not absolutely understandable of their pet-knowledge...

    Maybe he don't understand my english, he even answer the points i put, he just take the parts he believe understood and use it to teach me the basics of genetics.

    Interestingly you have some interest on me, the reciprocal is impossible. I just remember you repeating the same stupid things since, 8 years ago** Just repeating your insecurities and supposed supremacy of ''your'' people...

    Do yu can detect where he refute or even talk about my points*

    I am glad you enjoy the “me” in your fantasy world. I didn’t even post here prior to 2016 and your understanding of genetics is evidently as sound as your memory.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Do YU can show some accurate examples about my ''fantasy world''**

    Yu hate me, i simply don't care if you exist or not... some differences here chinkwinky..

    Are you creative in some way*

    ...

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  143. @tamo
    America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, An America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat in the world. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries' inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens' novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages).
    You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN'T CHINA----- IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. Also before the Industrial Revolution the technologically backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization.

    Reply 5 3

    Americans are Germans and British. They steal ideas from each other in the same way Germans in Germany steal from other Germans.

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    • Replies: @tamo
    But before the Industrial Revolution, Europeans copied a lot of CHINESE INVENTIONS without which the SPREAD of European Renaissance, the European gunpowder-based weapons revolution, the
    European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution in Europe would have been impossible. Read my comment #49.
    , @FKA Max
    There almost as many ethnic Germans in the U.S. as there are in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans and German Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans are still the U.S.'s largest ethnic group.

    26 Maps That Show How Ethnic Groups Are Divided Across America

    https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-of-ancestry-groups-in-america-2013-9

    https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/522c73e4eab8ea2a6c69647c-960-708.jpg
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  144. @Achmed E. Newman
    Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition Chi-Commies! (especially under a Lance Weldon post).

    It's a sad, sad state of affairs on unz.com when attila-the-hen writes by far the sanest comment so far.

    I will say that Godfree Robert's statement about current Police State USSA is accurate, but you write, Godfree, as if there is no such thing as history. I've read your crap before, and you are nothing but Pro-Mao, pro-Commie, and pro-China, with no earthly idea of the dark side. Good luck over there. No matter how much you think you fit in, you'll always be a white ghost over there, and if (hopefully not) there are really bad relations to come, you'd better watch your 6. China cult-revs go a lot farther than the current US one has, as Americans will remain armed. I am exhibit A.

    [Godfree Roberts is] nothing but Pro-Mao, pro-Commie, and pro-China…

    He may be God-free, but he’s certainly not god-free.

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  145. Truth says:
    @Eric Novak
    The entire modern world was created by Europeans. What wealth did Issac Newton or Gauss or Tesla need for their genius? None.

    They needed some wealth, or they would have been working as serfs; or in a factory.

    “Hey, would somebody tell Newton to shut the fuck up and run that plow ox through the potato field…”

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  146. Nawyr says:
    @Jim
    It would be desirable to have more representative data on the IQ of the Chinese population. However there is extensive data on the IQ of the Japanese population and the results obtained by Japanese vs. western psychometricians do not differ significantly. These studies indicate an average population IQ of 107 in Japan. Given the genetic similarity between Han Chinese and Japanese it is very unlikely that the average IQ of the Han Chinese is anywhere near as low as 95.

    Basic population similarity isn’t an indicator of shared intelligence. The genes coding for intelligence are relatively few and far inbetween — a population can be genetically close to another (autosomally) and still be far more intelligent.

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  147. @Eric Novak
    Two Africans with no European ancestors can produce a white child. You are a troll.

    Two people with dominant phenotype (black) can have a child with recessive phenotype (white), if both are heterozygotes.

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  148. @Eric Novak
    Two Africans with no European ancestors can produce a white child. You are a troll.

    Two self-claimed Africans with European genes can produce a white child. Without being heterozygotes they can’t. Didn’t I explain it clearly enough?

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  149. Amen says:
    @AnonFromTN
    I suggest you visit Mexico and see for yourself just how wrong all US myths about it are. Mexico City is safer than most US cities, they have more book stores in downtown Mexico City than we have in all of the US, college-educated Mexicans are better informed about the world than Americans with PhD, etc. I don’t know about you, but I was surprised, even though I did not expect to hear anything true from American MSM.

    Mexican poets, scientists and philosophers are world renowned. Their scientific/engineering/medical advancements and contributions to the modern world are on par with those from Wakanda.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Here you are on a very shaky ground. The nation where Warhol is considered a painter and Copland and Gershwin are believed to be composers has serious issues with artistic creativity. You don’t want to throw stones when you live in a glass house.
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  150. @Eric Novak
    You've made no case against the strong predictive power of IQ as measured by many tests, including SAT/ACT tests in the US.

    Tests predict the results of other tests. Key point is, do the results of any test reflect the intelligence of a person? To the best of my knowledge, the answer is a resounding “no”.

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    • Replies: @Eric Novak
    Then your resounding knowledge resounds like a nickel dropped on a shag rug: the predictive power of IQ tests and of their close kin in college tests has been proven and demonstrated for decades. Kids with a 19 on the ACT never become neurologists or electrical engineers. The data and the policies they produce are readily available. Don't troll.
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  151. I wonder what percentage of the people who subscribe to all the Chinese lack creativity and China’s system cannot be innovative talk is actually in serious STEM. It’s more of a popular perception as far as I can tell, and often, what the legitimate experts know of is quite different from what’s sold to the general public. Chinese mostly ignore this shit, though surely, it does do some reputation damage that is increasingly being countered.

    It’s long occurred to me that in objective capability and competence, Chinese are actually pretty good, though of course there is still room for improvement. It’s marketing that China is much more deficient in due to cultural differences and partial isolation from the mainstream. An interesting analogy I thought of is that China is like a powerful self-funded entrepreneur in defiance of the VC system, whose role is taken by America, which means China does not get substantial marketing and connection benefits from being VC-funded, making recognition much more of an uphill battle. The upside is full ownership and control, and the possibility of eventually displacing the VC structure.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I wonder what percentage of the people who subscribe to all the Chinese lack creativity and China’s system cannot be innovative talk is actually in serious STEM.
     
    I'm fairly well engaged and its probably true. The specific mechanism likely has to do with stronger inhibitory systems which seem to also compromise creativity. Understanding the brain is necessary in order to modify its behavior, if desired but its also an useful lesson that nature works in boom/bust methods rather than any specific angle of balance.
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  152. @Eric Novak
    You've made no case against the strong predictive power of IQ as measured by many tests, including SAT/ACT tests in the US.

    IQ has strong links to working memory, but working memory isn’t the final metric of all intellectual function. There’s actually pretty decent evidence that weakness in some parts of the brain improve creativity, for example, which is important for say, artistic creation. Executive function has a weak correlation as well.

    It’s fine for a casual measure but I do understand from a scientist’s perspective that it’s really not granular enough. It’s like measuring beats per second and using it as universal measure of health. Yes, athletes have lower heartbeats per second, usually. But weightlifting might have nothing to do with it.

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  153. tamo says:
    @Eric Novak
    Americans are Germans and British. They steal ideas from each other in the same way Germans in Germany steal from other Germans.

    But before the Industrial Revolution, Europeans copied a lot of CHINESE INVENTIONS without which the SPREAD of European Renaissance, the European gunpowder-based weapons revolution, the
    European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution in Europe would have been impossible. Read my comment #49.

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Turn of the Screw

    ONE GOOD TURN
    A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw.
    By Witold Rybczynski.


    What Rybczynski sees is that everything that requires mechanical precision, and that includes the instrumentation of modern science, rises out of the perfection of the simple screw and the complex machinery required to manufacture these indispensable items. He notes at the conclusion of the book that science (sometimes self-deprecatingly or self-consciously called ''Western science'') did not develop in cultures unfamiliar with the screw. In China, for example, where astrology did not evolve into astronomy or alchemy into chemistry, he writes, ''They didn't know screws at all: the screw is the only major mechanical device that they did not independently invent.''
     
    - https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/00/09/10/reviews/000910.10mont.html

    It is considered by some that the screw thread was invented in about 400BC by Archytas of Tarentum (428 BC - 350 BC). Archytas is sometimes called the founder of mechanics and was a contemporary of Plato. One of the first applications of the screw principle was in presses for the extraction of oils from olives and juice from grapes. The oil presses in Pomeii were worked by the screw principle.

    Archimedes (287 BC - 212 BC) developed the screw principle and used it to construct devices to raise water. The water screw may have originated in Egypt before the time of Archimedes. It was constructed from wood and was used for land irrigation and to remove bilge-water from ships. The Romans applied the Archimedean screw to mine drainage. The screw was described in the first century AD in Mechanica of Heron of Alexandria. - http://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw2.htm

    The screw press which allowed direct pressure to be applied on flat-plane was already of great antiquity in Gutenberg's time and was used for a wide range of tasks.[11] Introduced in the 1st century AD by the Romans, it was commonly employed in agricultural production for pressing wine grapes and (olive) oil fruit, both of which formed an integral part of the mediterranean and medieval diet.[12] The device was also used from very early on in urban contexts as a cloth press for printing patterns.[13] Gutenberg may have also been inspired by the paper presses which had spread through the German lands since the late 14th century and which worked on the same mechanical principles.
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press#Technological_factors

    What the Romans Did For Us Life of Luxury Ep 1 ©BBC

    The screw press, reconstructed using traditional techniques by carpenter Henry Russell, was used to produce wine. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Romans_Did_for_Us

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSTj2QUSlrI
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  154. Amen says:
    @Anon
    ... research, led by a Japanese psychologist called Kenya Kura, which has shown that Northeast Asians are genetically less intellectually creative than Europeans. [Why do Northeast Asians Win So Few Nobel Prizes?, By Kenya Kura et al., Comprehensive Psychology, 4: 2015] Northeast Asians, compared to Europeans, have higher gene frequencies of polymorphisms which make people collectivist, socially anxious, and fearful of anything novel. .. they note that scientific innovators tend to combine very high IQ with an optimally low level of collectivism, low social anxiety and low fearfulness of the new. In other words, they have high “Openness-Intellect”, as psychologists term this trait. This psychological profile means that they can think outside the box and don’t care about the offence to vested interests which their new idea will almost certainly result in.

    I'm not sure this really makes sense. After all, when it comes to hard sciences such as biology, physics, and chemistry and MATH, it is impossible to give offense to anyone. Even in the West, those are areas least affected by PC. And in the USSR, those in hard sciences and math had total freedom. It was in the human 'sciences' that people had to be careful.

    So, there is little chance that East Asians will give offense to anyone in biology, chemistry, and physics. And esp math. Also, if Asians are anti-anything-novel, why do they take to new technology like crazy? South Korea was ahead of the game in providing fast internet to everyone. Japanese love robots and video games and anything mecha. And Chinese sure went crazy in attacking everything old and embracing everything radical during the Mao yrs. And since the rise of market-economics, the Chinese have been willing to do ANYTHING to get ahead and make money. They pay no heed to tradition.

    And in 19th century Europe, Germany was more autocratic than certain other European nations, but it was a great center of science and modern learning. And the Anglo formula was never just individualism and freedom. It was a combination of individualism and extreme-mindfulness of what peers thought. It was about conforming to the high standards of British intellectual institutions. So, the issue isn't always individualism vs conformism but conformism vs conformism. It depends on what you conform to. If you are mindful about conforming to repressive dogma(like Marxist theology or Confucian texts), then you'll be trapped. But if you're mindful about conforming to high standards of intellectual inquiry(empiricism and reason), then you can achieve much. So, people like Darwin weren't maverick rebels who went against the grain. If anything, they were steeped in British institutional norms and did serious work to conform to those intellectual standards.

    Still, Asian personality may have a repressive effect on full creativity and individuality. Maybe, there are fewer variations of personality in East Asia, or there are only starkly different ones whereas the West has subtle gradations of various kinds of personalities. Perhaps, nuances in personality make for more creativity. Also, it could be hormonal. Maybe Asians have lower levels of hormones and this lends less fuel to passion and drive. Maybe Asian emotions are more cold-blooded than warm-blooded. It's like cold-blooded animals need the heat from outside sources. In contrast, warm-blooded animals generate heat from the inside. Maybe Asian intelligence tends to be less stellar because the heat to drive the passion has to come from the outside.

    There is also the issue of respect for older people. This is a good thing socially but in not so much in academics. If there's a very bright Japanese guy who can do great work, he may suppress his own ideas out of deference to older academics who are past their prime.

    Another problem is the status-madness of Asian academic culture. Because so much emphasis is placed on the prestige of going to a good school, most students expend most of their energies on studying for tests to enter good schools. But instead of seeing the college experience as the prime time to do serious work, Asian students began to grow lax just then. They figure, "I made it to a top college, so I'm going to take it easy." So, colleges are treated as vacations in Asia. They think the real work comes in high school and after college. College is respite between the two.

    Another problem is the status-madness of Asian academic culture. Because so much emphasis is placed on the prestige of going to a good school, most students expend most of their energies on studying for tests to enter good schools.

    That pretty much describes most top students in America today, regardless of ethnicity. The chase for prestige has destroyed real learning in our schools. Our smartest kids no longer learn for the sake of learning, they learn only to excel in exams, while running themselves ragged participating in extracurricular activities they have little real interest in just so they could get into a prestigious college, then graduate and start a lucrative career by tapping into the alumni network. Holistic admission and the chase for prestige are destroying real learning, innovation and creativity in America.

    Meanwhile, if you are a CEO/politician wannabe, startup founder, doctor, scientist, mathematician or in any field in the humanities and want to be taken seriously in your field, you pretty much have to graduate from one of these elite schools to be taken seriously, because their graduates have formed a country club and only prop up those who went to the same schools.

    The Traitorous Eight plays a big role in taking America down this rabbit hole. It’s a system of privilege further perpetuating privilege.

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  155. Tsigon says:

    Here’s an article based on a study out of China exploring the effects of pollution on intelligence. Curious to know your thoughts: https://futurism.com/air-pollution-intelligence/

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  156. @Amen
    Mexican poets, scientists and philosophers are world renowned. Their scientific/engineering/medical advancements and contributions to the modern world are on par with those from Wakanda.

    Here you are on a very shaky ground. The nation where Warhol is considered a painter and Copland and Gershwin are believed to be composers has serious issues with artistic creativity. You don’t want to throw stones when you live in a glass house.

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  157. @Daniel Chieh
    I am glad you enjoy the "me" in your fantasy world. I didn't even post here prior to 2016 and your understanding of genetics is evidently as sound as your memory.

    Do YU can show some accurate examples about my ”fantasy world”**

    Yu hate me, i simply don’t care if you exist or not… some differences here chinkwinky..

    Are you creative in some way*

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    People have the most interesting pathologies these days.
    , @Talha
    Are you sober - I mean this as a serious question?

    If not, please avoid posting when inebriated, we'll still be here after a few hours when the effects have worn off.

    Peace.
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  158. @Santoculto
    Do YU can show some accurate examples about my ''fantasy world''**

    Yu hate me, i simply don't care if you exist or not... some differences here chinkwinky..

    Are you creative in some way*

    ...

    People have the most interesting pathologies these days.

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  159. Talha says:
    @Santoculto
    Do YU can show some accurate examples about my ''fantasy world''**

    Yu hate me, i simply don't care if you exist or not... some differences here chinkwinky..

    Are you creative in some way*

    ...

    Are you sober – I mean this as a serious question?

    If not, please avoid posting when inebriated, we’ll still be here after a few hours when the effects have worn off.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Any question is serious tralha...
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  160. Bucky says:

    Intelligence is kind of an artificial measure. I’m sure that Kanye is a creative genius in some way. But can Kanye build a building that won’t fall down?

    It isn’t really intelligence in making unusual connections. Intelligence like that is how we get garbage like “63 genders,” or rap music.

    It is cultural discipline which explains why Chinese can accomplish stuff. They keep at it, they don’t get distracted, they don’t complain, they don’t squabble needlessly. This trait also has its problems. It is disruption of the status quo coming from complaint and squabble which is how new systems are come to.

    And that makes outside observers think that Orientals are uncreative.

    But what they miss is how if they were more creative they wouldn’t be able to build anything in the first place. Creativity is how the Chinese got Mao’s “Great Leap Forward.” It is how we get terms like “cisgender.” Like all things, creativity is a double-edged sword.

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    • Agree: utu
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  161. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Eric Novak
    Americans are Germans and British. They steal ideas from each other in the same way Germans in Germany steal from other Germans.

    There almost as many ethnic Germans in the U.S. as there are in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans and German Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans are still the U.S.’s largest ethnic group.

    26 Maps That Show How Ethnic Groups Are Divided Across America

    https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-of-ancestry-groups-in-america-2013-9

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    "Ethnic Germans"

    Many Jews are German-descended and would respond to a census by simply stating "German" for origin.

    So the label covers Amish in Ohio (Actually Austrians of some sort) and Sarah Silverman.
    , @Jeff Stryker
    Norwegians are strongest in Fargo! I thought they all lived in Alabama. What a revelation.

    Most Italians live in the Northeast? This would make sense, the Yankee factory owners did not want the issue of slavery and could pay Sicilians a pittance.

    Chinese live in New York and California for the most part? Why would you immigrate anywhere else?

    French live on the border of Quebec and Vermont or down in Louisiana?

    This is a revelation.
    , @FKA Max
    Typo: There *are* almost as many ethnic Germans in the U.S. as there are in Germany

    German-Americans
    The silent minority
    America’s largest ethnic group has assimilated so well that people barely notice it


    Today German-Americans are quietly successful. Their median household income, at $61,500, is 18% above the national norm. They are more likely to have college degrees than other Americans, and less likely to be unemployed. A whopping 97% of them speak only English at home.

    They have assimilated and prospered without any political help specially tailored for their ethnic group. “The Greeks and the Irish have a far stronger support network and lobby groups than we do,” says Peter Wittig, Germany’s ambassador in America. There was no German-American congressional caucus until 2010, though there were caucuses for potatoes, bicycles and Albanian affairs. The German caucus has quickly grown to about 100 members, who lobby for trade and investment as well as the preservation of their common cultural heritage.
     

    - http://archive.is/xIBYH#selection-1325.0-1329.539

    They also elected Trump, who is half-German:

    Which White People Support Trump?

    Pundits often talk about the “white vote,” but it’s more complicated than that. Voters who say they have German or Italian heritage lean most heavily to Trump and the GOP, a poll run for BuzzFeed News reveals.

    https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-10/9/9/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web11/sub-buzz-13718-1476019481-1.jpg

    Source: http://www.unz.com/isteve/dennis-ross-memories-of-an-anti-semitic-state-department/#comment-2023463 and http://archive.fo/2C233

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  162. Jake says:

    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having. The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich.

    Japan’s history is almost as bad, as is Korea’s.

    Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.

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    • Replies: @Bucky
    Oh come on. European feudalism was similar if not worse concentration of wealth. And today in America the top 10% have like half the national wealth.
    , @tamo
    Get off this Euro -white supremacy bullshit. When Germans were running around in animal skins in the ancient Europe, China's Han dynasty already had the essentials of a sophisticated modern state. After fall of the Western Roman Empire, ignorant, barbaric, low-iq conquering Germans couldn't run the old empire so that things in western Europe went backward like aqueducts and roads being in severe disrepair. These dismal conditions lasted for many hundred years because Germans couldn't have the skills or knowledge to preserve and build on what's left by the Romans. You said "The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich". You sound like you are describing America or many European countries, lol !!! Rejuvenation of Christendom? I don't think so. Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion and America where less and less young people become Christian and by 2045, there is a good chance the whites in America will be a minority.
    , @Bliss

    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having........Japan’s history is almost as bad, as is Korea’s.......Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.
     
    What a pretentious ignoramus. Christianity did not originate in Europe. It was not “built upon European values and cultural identities”. Read the Bible and stop bullshitting.
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  163. @Joe Wong
    The Chinese are eating more western diet now, unfortunately they are getting a lot of Western health problems like obesity and diabetes before raising their IQ.

    Very, true, Joe. Even just lots of white rice is bad, as it has a higher glycemic index than even potatoes. The incidence of diabetes in China has gone way up, as you say.

    I no longer dub you “Joe Wrong”. (It’s been a while, Joe, and I can’t remember what that was even about – ~ year ago or so.)

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  164. @jgarbo
    Never the "one child" rule. Engineering Prof in Guangzhou, old friend, explained he could have as many children as he liked BUT the govt would only pay - everything - for the first. After that he would paying full price for subsequent children. He and his wife took the one child route, a charming, bright son. There was never a "One child" - abort the next - policy. More Western propaganda?

    There was never a “One child” – abort the next – policy. More Western propaganda?

    This is true as it stands, JGarbo, there was no government abortion policy that I’ve heard about. I also know someone whose cousins had a 2nd child, and the girl could not be registered for school (goes along with the theory of why # of girls may be “catching up”), and the 2 parents were fired from their workplace.

    However, that doesn’t mean that lots of Chinese Moms didn’t have abortions when they found out a girl was on the way. In fact, there was government policy enacted within a decade ago that forbid divulgence of the sex of a fetus to the parents for this reason. You’ve got to understand that 90% of Chinese were very poor up until 15 – 20 years back, and there are still hundreds of millionns of very poor Chinese people. They almost all still want a boy for taking care of the parents during old age, and they may not have the money to support more than one. Unlike American ghetto dwellers, even the very poor over there are responsible (that’s a topic for another discussion).

    Maybe you didn’t read the “propaganda” thoroughly, but your engineering prof. sounds on the level.

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    • Replies: @Truth

    Unlike American ghetto dwellers, even the very poor over there are responsible (that’s a topic for another discussion).
     
    Terminating a life because you didn't get exactly what you want is, "responsible?"
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  165. Bucky says:
    @Jake
    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having. The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich.

    Japan's history is almost as bad, as is Korea's.

    Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.

    Oh come on. European feudalism was similar if not worse concentration of wealth. And today in America the top 10% have like half the national wealth.

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  166. @tamo
    America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, An America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat in the world. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries' inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens' novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages).
    You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN'T CHINA----- IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. Also before the Industrial Revolution the technologically backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization.

    Reply 5 3

    LOEL – yes, even Louder than Mike-at-Mike-dot-Mike! To pick rough numbers, 1750 to 1915 in America had to be the best time and place ever in history to be an inventor. Man, I’d have loved to have had the money just for tools, including some metal-working stuff, (maybe some glass-blowing equipment) and basic materials that were available, and a small lab! (A saloon nearby with bar-girls would have, of course, been nice too. Oh, and to live in a town with a sheriff that can shoot. OK, OK, I try not to get all my history from the movies like certain, ahem, commenters here. ;-}

    Somewhat OT, but it is about China: It’s not all genetics/HBD, people. America is, as we all know, except Godfree Roberts, not anything like the free, libertarian society it used to be (understand, Roberts?). What I’ve been encouraged about regarding China has been their nearly-free-market healthcare system. It’s not that they have the medical science up to Western levels completely. It’s the way things run. Freedom works wonders! Personal experience in the Chinese free-market healtcare system, and Part 2, Part 3 and a brief postscript.

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  167. anonymous[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China's scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.

    If there is no radical technological break this century (e.g. widespread gene editing for greater IQ, or machine superintelligence), the scenario I posit is one of decreasing average IQ and increasing fertility rates: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/short-history-of-3rd-millennium/

    This will eventually bring back Malthusian conditions when the global population hits the carrying capacity of industrial civilization, and restart the engine of technological growth. But this will take centuries.

    In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy.

    Quite surprised Spain is only 1/2 of Germany per capita. Would have expected it to be lower.

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  168. @Talha
    Are you sober - I mean this as a serious question?

    If not, please avoid posting when inebriated, we'll still be here after a few hours when the effects have worn off.

    Peace.

    Any question is serious tralha…

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  169. Bill P says:

    All I have to see to know these stats are bogus is the map showing Sichuan with a higher IQ than Guangdong.

    Chinese statistics are notoriously unreliable, so I don’t think anyone ought to put much faith in these numbers. They also deliberately fudge the numbers by, for example, not counting migrant workers and their children in stats for places like Shanghai and Beijing. This despite the fact that births to migrants are likely the majority of all births in these places. Migrant workers’ children are typically banned from attending official schools, so they obviously won’t be included in test results.

    Chinese are smart, but there are reasons to doubt this will translate to technological and civilizational dominance. In addition to a clumsy, Bronze Age writing system, China has a remarkably primitive legal tradition by Western standards. Rule of Law is a concept that has never been applied in China, and there are no serious efforts to implement it. This depresses innovation for the obvious reason that the powerful (or even the merely crafty and unscrupulous) can expropriate intellectual property and leave the innovator with no reliable means for obtaining compensation.

    Additionally, rampant cheating and fakery mean that separating the wheat from the chaff is very difficult. Efforts to address this, such as the new “social credit” system, are only as effective as the people running it, which again brings us back to the law issue: if those setting the standards are not held to objective standards themselves, isn’t it inevitable that they will begin to abuse their power in ways that put their own interests ahead of the people’s?

    Even if IQ is higher on average than, say, Norway, what’s to keep Chinese from stepping on their neighbors to rise higher in the social hierarchy? And when they do finally arrive at the top, what’s to keep them from pulling up the ladder and even hurling impediments at those who would follow them? This is in fact the Chinese way. Although this tendency is common throughout humanity, Chinese have few cultural practices to mitigate this behavior, having instead institutionalized it. This is why China needs constant growth to prevent revolutionary sentiment from arising: the entire society is essentially a giant ponzi scheme that is prone to collapse when it runs out of steam.

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    • Replies: @Amen
    Spot on! China is the Wild East and probably always will be. Dishonesty and selfishness are ingrained in the Chinese culture. The day China leads the world is the day the world plunges into darkness. Just look at advanced societies with a dominant Chinese population such as Hong Kong or Taiwan, total dog-eat-dog, unpleasant societies even to visit, much less to live in. The only exception is Singapore and that's only because they've adopted English as the lingua franca. But with the reversal back to Chinese and high immigration from China due to China's rise, Singapore is sure to revert back to the corrupt Chinese ways.
    , @Johann Ricke

    China has a remarkably primitive legal tradition by Western standards. Rule of Law is a concept that has never been applied in China, and there are no serious efforts to implement it. This depresses innovation for the obvious reason that the powerful (or even the merely crafty and unscrupulous) can expropriate intellectual property and leave the innovator with no reliable means for obtaining compensation.
     
    That may be the real problem in China. If an inventor can't get paid for his creations, why would he bother? One interesting thing I've noticed about both theoretical and practical breakthroughs stateside is that a significant and increasing number feature what appear to be Chinese names. We may be getting into a "our Chinese are better than their Chinese" dynamic similar to the "our Germans are better than their Germans" situation that helped us win WWII.
    , @tamo
    Do not mention rule of law and America in the same breath. America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, An America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat in the world. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries' inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens' novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages). You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN'T CHINA----- IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. China is no exception to the rule. Also before the Industrial Revolution the technologically backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization
    , @tamo
    For your information,the concept of rule of law was first initiated by Li Kui who wrote BOOK OF LAW in ancient China in the 5th century BC. This is a few decades before Aristotle in Greece came up with the same concept in the 4th century BC. I'm going to paraphrase and quote from THE ART OF THE STATE by Christopher Hood, a prominent British scholar specializing in analysis of various government systems. "According to Max Weber a great German social scientist, a modern state must have the fully formed modern bureaucracy that clearly establishes official duties, elaborate rules governing the exercise of authority, continuous and regular performance of tasks by staff appointed on the regulated qualifications". "Han dynasty of more than 2000 years ago that had much more complex and sophisticated bureaucracy than the imperial Rome, met Weber's criterion for the modern state". Starting from the middle of the 2nd century BC, Han dynasty implemented the civil service examination that was rooted in winnowing-down meritocratic system. It's officials operated under clearly defined duties and rules. For checks and balances, Han dynasty had the institutional system that even applied to the emperor. The dynasty had an office of inspector general that had "the power to impeach officials, inspect their efficiency and integrity and criticize the policies of topmost officials or even of the emperor" According to Anthony Francois Paulus Hulsewe a prominent Dutch expert on ancient Chinese law, Han dynasty had a sophisticated law code that had more than 26,000 articles written in about 7,700,000 words that clearly outlined punishments. and there were about 500 articles on the death penalty alone which included almost 1,900 offenses and about 3,500 pieces of case law. Also ancient Chinese courts practiced forensic medicine from at the latest 3rd century BC long before the West ( although Hippocratic corpus mentioned forensic science, there is no record of ancient Greek courts' having practiced it). So we can say Han dynasty had been a modern state long before any Western country became one. Also according to Angus Maddison a well- respected economic historian, Han dynasty had a bigger economy and was much wealthier than the Roman Empire.
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  170. tamo says:
    @Jake
    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having. The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich.

    Japan's history is almost as bad, as is Korea's.

    Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.

    Get off this Euro -white supremacy bullshit. When Germans were running around in animal skins in the ancient Europe, China’s Han dynasty already had the essentials of a sophisticated modern state. After fall of the Western Roman Empire, ignorant, barbaric, low-iq conquering Germans couldn’t run the old empire so that things in western Europe went backward like aqueducts and roads being in severe disrepair. These dismal conditions lasted for many hundred years because Germans couldn’t have the skills or knowledge to preserve and build on what’s left by the Romans. You said “The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich”. You sound like you are describing America or many European countries, lol !!! Rejuvenation of Christendom? I don’t think so. Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion and America where less and less young people become Christian and by 2045, there is a good chance the whites in America will be a minority.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    And yet, the modern world we have today is a strictly Western creation. Blacks/Asians have to stop appropriating Western culture, i.e., airplanes, computers, telephones, cars, etc.

    The Chinese can use the abacus for their calculations.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    This is really a waste of time to engage with them.
    , @Jeff Stryker
    China was taken over by Manchurian nomads from Siberia far into Medieval times and Manchu became the rulers of China so barbarians were not simply running Rome.
    , @FKA Max
    The Renaissance Myth

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html Archived link: http://archive.is/iZmxu

    Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion [...]
     
    Europe has been under threat of Muslim invasion for 1300 years, which, incidentally, is also what caused and contributed to the "Dark Ages"...

    Did Islam cause the Dark Ages?

    Where the so-called Dark Ages actually “dark”? Not at first. The barbarian invaders admired Roman civilization. When Alaric the Goth (Visigoth) sacked Rome in 410, the capital of the western empire had already been moved to Ravenna. The Goths had originally been supporters of Rome and served in its military, but after the Huns forced them to move, they faced discrimination from the Romans and their support turned to resentment.
    [...]
    Essentially, the entire Dark Ages consisted of relentless attacks by Muslims. They came on slaving raids, sometimes enslaving entire towns. They committed mass murder, killing hundreds of thousands to millions. Thousands of churches were destroyed. Education declined because the papyrus supply was cut off after Egypt was captured by Umar, the second caliph, in 640. Thereafter, Europeans had to reuse old texts and parchment became a luxury. Without a supply of paper for learning, poor Europeans grew increasingly illiterate. While Europe was under constant bombardment, so was North Africa, India and even China.
    [...]
    The only reasonable conclusion is that Islam indeed caused what was known as the Dark Ages.
     
    - https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Destruction of Classical Civilization

    A historical account of 1300 years of jihad against western civilization and the spread of Islam.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuxqXjhl13Y

    Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc
    , @Anon
    China may have a lot of potential among its population, but it's never at any point had a reasonable government that is capable of unleashing that potential. The Chinese government, in fact, has a long and disgraceful history of burning books containing knowledge about anything that happened in the previous dynasty to keep from 'tainting' the minds of the people. Dynasty after dynasty after dynasty has used this technique to exert control over the people. As a more recent example, Mao ordered the Red Guards to destroy the 'Four Olds.'

    This is entire culture burning, not just book burning, and it's incredibly difficult to recover from. It's tough to build civilization when a nasty, paranoid government keeps knocking the ladder out from under their own people whenever they start trying to climb it. Nor have the Chinese cured themselves of this habit of making funeral pyres of their own culture whenever the fit takes them. Part of the motivator appears to be shame. Anything that makes them feel ashamed of themselves therefore has to die. The Chinese character is self-destructive in this respect.

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  171. Anonymous[423] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China's scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.

    If there is no radical technological break this century (e.g. widespread gene editing for greater IQ, or machine superintelligence), the scenario I posit is one of decreasing average IQ and increasing fertility rates: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/short-history-of-3rd-millennium/

    This will eventually bring back Malthusian conditions when the global population hits the carrying capacity of industrial civilization, and restart the engine of technological growth. But this will take centuries.

    It sounds like you watched Idiocracy one too many times.

    Regarding the gap between China and the other East Asian societies, I don’t think this is a permanent gap.

    It is hard for Chinese scientists to crank out 1st world scientific research while so many of their people are still working long days in rice paddies.

    As their economy improves I expect to see China normalize with the other East Asian countries.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Correct. And with said societies having 2-3x less per capita elite science output than the US, convergence would mean that China would be comparable to - not dominant over - the US.
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  172. Bliss says:
    @Jake
    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having. The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich.

    Japan's history is almost as bad, as is Korea's.

    Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.

    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having……..Japan’s history is almost as bad, as is Korea’s…….Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.

    What a pretentious ignoramus. Christianity did not originate in Europe. It was not “built upon European values and cultural identities”. Read the Bible and stop bullshitting.

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    Vikings in Iceland were still pagans when Rome was ruled by the Vatican and Jews were long dispersed into Europe.
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  173. @Escher
    And on what basis do you say that Vietnam has peaked?

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians who have developed a first world country. The Vietnamese are less intelligent than the Japanese. Vietnam never was and never will be great again.

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  174. People with lower openess ”debating” about openess… what a crap..

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  175. @Stan d Mute

    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.
     
    There’s a real slant to most of these comments isn’t there? This should be nipped in the bud before the whole thing slopes downward. Just zip it I say. Quit dragon down the level of discourse and make it more celestial.

    As I have commented before, most commentators on this website and several others can be grouped into 3 types: RCCers who accept black/Asian priests-popes, insane anti-Semites and Western males involved with Asian females.

    Many commentators scribble about the JQ: Jewish Question. When I found out that many commentators are involved with Asian females this cleared up many of the contradictions and hypocrisy posted by these commentators. John Derbyshire is exhibit A.

    My language is mild compared to what I have seen from other commentators. I had to give the Asian female problem a name: Asian Poontang Problem (APP). This is why I ask the Western commentators if they are involved with Asian women. If they are, they are worthless to the West.

    The German Reader is not involved with Asian female, but I have a feeling he is planning on this in the future. Hence his degenerate interest in Vietnam. He will not fight for his true country – Germany.

    Is there APP in your life?

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    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    Is there APP in your life?
     
    I’d say the appellation is vulgar, but my homie Ted Nugent published a song using the word and honestly Detriot itself is more vulgar than any word. I have a cracker poontang problem (CPP) but I chose my fate and must abide it. The problem isn’t that she’s a cracker, since everybody in my family is, but that she’s female and that is problem enough for me.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    I do like your terminology, Attila. I would point out to you that the Middle Kingdom, China, I mean, has had this 5,000 year long continuous culture. That's MMMMM or half a wan, if you're Roman or Chinese, irrespectfully. You have to keep in mind that some guys like women who have not (YET) picked up the highly-caustic Western feminism. Some like the old culture ingrained in these Oriental women like an ancient whisper from deep in the Poontang Dynasty.

    And, yes, of course I've heard Ted Nugent's Wang, Dang, Sweet Poontang, but I'm still partial to Cat Scratch Fever. Mr. Nugent has my respect for his strong support of US Constitution - Amendment II.
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  176. @tamo
    Get off this Euro -white supremacy bullshit. When Germans were running around in animal skins in the ancient Europe, China's Han dynasty already had the essentials of a sophisticated modern state. After fall of the Western Roman Empire, ignorant, barbaric, low-iq conquering Germans couldn't run the old empire so that things in western Europe went backward like aqueducts and roads being in severe disrepair. These dismal conditions lasted for many hundred years because Germans couldn't have the skills or knowledge to preserve and build on what's left by the Romans. You said "The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich". You sound like you are describing America or many European countries, lol !!! Rejuvenation of Christendom? I don't think so. Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion and America where less and less young people become Christian and by 2045, there is a good chance the whites in America will be a minority.

    And yet, the modern world we have today is a strictly Western creation. Blacks/Asians have to stop appropriating Western culture, i.e., airplanes, computers, telephones, cars, etc.

    The Chinese can use the abacus for their calculations.

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    • Replies: @tamo
    For your information, before the Industrial Revolution, Europe copied a lot of Chinese technologies without which the SPREAD of Renaissance, European gunpowder -based weapons revolution, the European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution would have been IMPOSSIBLE. According to Robert Temple, a well-respected scholar of the Oriental Studies, more than half of the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution came from China. By looking at the things going on now, I think there is a very good chance China will RECLAIM it's position as the technology superpower that it lost with the coming of the Industrial Revolution, by 2040.
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  177. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo
    But before the Industrial Revolution, Europeans copied a lot of CHINESE INVENTIONS without which the SPREAD of European Renaissance, the European gunpowder-based weapons revolution, the
    European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution in Europe would have been impossible. Read my comment #49.

    Turn of the Screw

    ONE GOOD TURN
    A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw.
    By Witold Rybczynski.

    What Rybczynski sees is that everything that requires mechanical precision, and that includes the instrumentation of modern science, rises out of the perfection of the simple screw and the complex machinery required to manufacture these indispensable items. He notes at the conclusion of the book that science (sometimes self-deprecatingly or self-consciously called ”Western science”) did not develop in cultures unfamiliar with the screw. In China, for example, where astrology did not evolve into astronomy or alchemy into chemistry, he writes, ”They didn’t know screws at all: the screw is the only major mechanical device that they did not independently invent.”

    https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/00/09/10/reviews/000910.10mont.html

    It is considered by some that the screw thread was invented in about 400BC by Archytas of Tarentum (428 BC – 350 BC). Archytas is sometimes called the founder of mechanics and was a contemporary of Plato. One of the first applications of the screw principle was in presses for the extraction of oils from olives and juice from grapes. The oil presses in Pomeii were worked by the screw principle.

    [MORE]

    Archimedes (287 BC – 212 BC) developed the screw principle and used it to construct devices to raise water. The water screw may have originated in Egypt before the time of Archimedes. It was constructed from wood and was used for land irrigation and to remove bilge-water from ships. The Romans applied the Archimedean screw to mine drainage. The screw was described in the first century AD in Mechanica of Heron of Alexandria. http://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw2.htm

    The screw press which allowed direct pressure to be applied on flat-plane was already of great antiquity in Gutenberg’s time and was used for a wide range of tasks.[11] Introduced in the 1st century AD by the Romans, it was commonly employed in agricultural production for pressing wine grapes and (olive) oil fruit, both of which formed an integral part of the mediterranean and medieval diet.[12] The device was also used from very early on in urban contexts as a cloth press for printing patterns.[13] Gutenberg may have also been inspired by the paper presses which had spread through the German lands since the late 14th century and which worked on the same mechanical principles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press#Technological_factors

    What the Romans Did For Us Life of Luxury Ep 1 ©BBC

    The screw press, reconstructed using traditional techniques by carpenter Henry Russell, was used to produce wine.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Romans_Did_for_Us

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    • Replies: @tamo
    The absence of the continuous screw and worm in traditional China SHOULDN'T be taken to mean no helicoidal forms were in China; on the contrary, there were many of those things. For example,there was the zoetrope, or vane-wheel rotated by by an ascending air current, or the helicopter top or horizontal air-screw which itself ascended when rapidly rotated by a cord, The skew-set vanes of all sch devices were (like the oblique paddle-boards of horizontal water mills or the sails of early vertical windmills) essentially separate flat surfaces tangent to the continuously curving helix of a complete screw or worm. So it s possible to define rather precisely the different achievements of the Hellenistic and Chinese worlds, for while the Greeks made abundant applications of elongated screw and worm shapes, the Chinese early developed tangent-plane helicoid structures. According to Dr. Peter Liu of Harvard University who published his research paper in Science, China invented the complex (compound) machine about 2550 years ago. That's about 600 years earlier than Hero of Alexandria was previously thought to have invented the machine. For your information, science itself was born in the Islamic civilization in the 11th century with the birth of EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD that the medieval European scholars eagerly copied thus bringing science to Europe. For your information, all the ancient civilizations were PRE-SCIENTIFIC. Without the Islamic invention of SCIENCE itself, there would have been NO MODERN SCIENCE in Europe.
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  178. @tamo
    Get off this Euro -white supremacy bullshit. When Germans were running around in animal skins in the ancient Europe, China's Han dynasty already had the essentials of a sophisticated modern state. After fall of the Western Roman Empire, ignorant, barbaric, low-iq conquering Germans couldn't run the old empire so that things in western Europe went backward like aqueducts and roads being in severe disrepair. These dismal conditions lasted for many hundred years because Germans couldn't have the skills or knowledge to preserve and build on what's left by the Romans. You said "The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich". You sound like you are describing America or many European countries, lol !!! Rejuvenation of Christendom? I don't think so. Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion and America where less and less young people become Christian and by 2045, there is a good chance the whites in America will be a minority.

    This is really a waste of time to engage with them.

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    DANIEL

    Just as Rome was toppled by Northern barbarians, so too did Northern barbarians known as Manchu from Siberia invade China and become its ruling elite.

    In this respect, Manchu were analogous to both the Germanic tribes that sacked Rome and the Normans who invaded England in 1066.

    We can sit here and argue which culture was more barbaric. It would be pointless.
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  179. @Truth

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don’t belong.
     
    Listen to Tillie and learn there, Schmidt; she knows her stuff.

    Attila has no idea what the ructions of immigration from Germany to the US are-she’s lived in an exurb somewhere all her life and never traveled anywhere out of the country.

    Most blacks in Europe could not possibly reach the US or they already would have.

    Even the forgotten children of black serviceman around the bases, of which there are many, cannot qualify for US citizenship.

    Seemingly, the US only wants Red Indians from Central America.

    Turks are now 3rd generation Germans so it would be hard to get rid of them.

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  180. @tamo
    Get off this Euro -white supremacy bullshit. When Germans were running around in animal skins in the ancient Europe, China's Han dynasty already had the essentials of a sophisticated modern state. After fall of the Western Roman Empire, ignorant, barbaric, low-iq conquering Germans couldn't run the old empire so that things in western Europe went backward like aqueducts and roads being in severe disrepair. These dismal conditions lasted for many hundred years because Germans couldn't have the skills or knowledge to preserve and build on what's left by the Romans. You said "The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich". You sound like you are describing America or many European countries, lol !!! Rejuvenation of Christendom? I don't think so. Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion and America where less and less young people become Christian and by 2045, there is a good chance the whites in America will be a minority.

    China was taken over by Manchurian nomads from Siberia far into Medieval times and Manchu became the rulers of China so barbarians were not simply running Rome.

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    • Replies: @tamo
    The Manchus took over China in the 17th century. Their rule lasted about 250 years. But during this time period, the Manchus were almost completely became SINICIZED. You can find very few Manchus in the North East (formerly Manchuria)
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  181. @Daniel Chieh
    This is really a waste of time to engage with them.

    DANIEL

    Just as Rome was toppled by Northern barbarians, so too did Northern barbarians known as Manchu from Siberia invade China and become its ruling elite.

    In this respect, Manchu were analogous to both the Germanic tribes that sacked Rome and the Normans who invaded England in 1066.

    We can sit here and argue which culture was more barbaric. It would be pointless.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Eh. I don't think anyone is arguing who's more barbaric. Its overall quite pointless.

    The Manchu have since ceased to have an identity, though, so in that sense China was much more successfully in absorbing them in total than the Germanics were by Rome. A more accurate comparison would be the Mongols, who also triggered a great deal of civilization destruction.

    Tang and Song were definitely ahead of Europe, though since Han was roughly equivalent(I've gone through this once, with a number of metrics) and then Europe self-destructed into the Dark Ages.

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  182. @AnonFromTN
    Tests predict the results of other tests. Key point is, do the results of any test reflect the intelligence of a person? To the best of my knowledge, the answer is a resounding “no”.

    Then your resounding knowledge resounds like a nickel dropped on a shag rug: the predictive power of IQ tests and of their close kin in college tests has been proven and demonstrated for decades. Kids with a 19 on the ACT never become neurologists or electrical engineers. The data and the policies they produce are readily available. Don’t troll.

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    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    Kids with a 19 on the ACT never become neurologists or electrical engineers.
     
    I dunno about that and it frightens me. We have offshore med schools like Ross in Barbados, unrated loser schools like Stritcher, and we get doctors from places like Zimbabwe University (I know of at least two cardiologists here). Doctors should be required to publish their MCAT scores. And electrical engineers, unless they are PE’s, aren’t required to prove any abilities are they?
    , @AnonFromTN
    Thanks for coming out of the closet with your naked ignorance. The tests are well known to people who tried to use them for decades as worthless. Every person who spent some time on college admissions committee knows that SAT scores have no predictive value: they only show how much time people spent preparing for them. I was on the admissions committee of our graduate program for eight years, and I know first-hand that GRE scores do not predict the performance of graduate students. We still have to pay attention to the scores only because when you write training grant renewal, you have to demonstrate that you are selective, i.e., take kids with good scores. But we do know that those scores mean nothing whatsoever, except that very low scores usually suggest stupidity. Anything above 50% of max is purely random, as far as intelligence, creativity, and future success of the students in grad school and beyond is concerned. The value of test scores is exactly the same as the value of “diversity” – nil. Of course, a burger-flipper would religiously believe in scores. S/he would not know any better.
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  183. @FKA Max
    There almost as many ethnic Germans in the U.S. as there are in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans and German Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans are still the U.S.'s largest ethnic group.

    26 Maps That Show How Ethnic Groups Are Divided Across America

    https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-of-ancestry-groups-in-america-2013-9

    https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/522c73e4eab8ea2a6c69647c-960-708.jpg

    “Ethnic Germans”

    Many Jews are German-descended and would respond to a census by simply stating “German” for origin.

    So the label covers Amish in Ohio (Actually Austrians of some sort) and Sarah Silverman.

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  184. The problem is that China is that it never quite recovered from communism, an idealogy which by its very nature is dysgenic. The most extreme example is Cambodia in the 70’s, killing people who wore glasses because it was assumed they were smart.

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  185. In China a rural girl like you might have been drowned by her parents in the bathtub. I heard about this in 1983 or 1984 when I was 10 years old.

    That was in my lifetime, not 1750. I’m 44 years old and as a child of the 80′s I remember this was an issue in China.

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  186. @Bliss

    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having........Japan’s history is almost as bad, as is Korea’s.......Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.
     
    What a pretentious ignoramus. Christianity did not originate in Europe. It was not “built upon European values and cultural identities”. Read the Bible and stop bullshitting.

    Vikings in Iceland were still pagans when Rome was ruled by the Vatican and Jews were long dispersed into Europe.

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  187. @Eric Novak
    Then your resounding knowledge resounds like a nickel dropped on a shag rug: the predictive power of IQ tests and of their close kin in college tests has been proven and demonstrated for decades. Kids with a 19 on the ACT never become neurologists or electrical engineers. The data and the policies they produce are readily available. Don't troll.

    Kids with a 19 on the ACT never become neurologists or electrical engineers.

    I dunno about that and it frightens me. We have offshore med schools like Ross in Barbados, unrated loser schools like Stritcher, and we get doctors from places like Zimbabwe University (I know of at least two cardiologists here). Doctors should be required to publish their MCAT scores. And electrical engineers, unless they are PE’s, aren’t required to prove any abilities are they?

    Read More
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  188. @Eric Novak
    Then your resounding knowledge resounds like a nickel dropped on a shag rug: the predictive power of IQ tests and of their close kin in college tests has been proven and demonstrated for decades. Kids with a 19 on the ACT never become neurologists or electrical engineers. The data and the policies they produce are readily available. Don't troll.

    Thanks for coming out of the closet with your naked ignorance. The tests are well known to people who tried to use them for decades as worthless. Every person who spent some time on college admissions committee knows that SAT scores have no predictive value: they only show how much time people spent preparing for them. I was on the admissions committee of our graduate program for eight years, and I know first-hand that GRE scores do not predict the performance of graduate students. We still have to pay attention to the scores only because when you write training grant renewal, you have to demonstrate that you are selective, i.e., take kids with good scores. But we do know that those scores mean nothing whatsoever, except that very low scores usually suggest stupidity. Anything above 50% of max is purely random, as far as intelligence, creativity, and future success of the students in grad school and beyond is concerned. The value of test scores is exactly the same as the value of “diversity” – nil. Of course, a burger-flipper would religiously believe in scores. S/he would not know any better.

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    • Replies: @Hbd investor
    >The tests are well known to people who tried to use them for decades as worthless. Every person who spent some time on college admissions committee knows that SAT scores have no predictive value

    Completely incorrect, SAT scores have some of the strongest predictive values. They don’t appear to correlate with GPA but only because they didn’t control for majors. When you do control for majors the correlation there and it is extremely strong.

    People with higher SAT scores tend to have higher odds of getting PHD, publish research articles, obtain patents, higher average incomes, tend to enter in STEM while lower SAT scores enter non STEM majors.

    Even when controlled for the same major and same school, students with higher SAT scores tend to do better in everything.

    Something like half of the perfect 800 math scores never took a prep class or prepped for the exam. The SAT doesn’t test much more than algebra, trigonometry and geometry and basic arithmetic many scientists could take it cold after decades of not being in school and get 800

    The SAT doesn’t require any studying, the ceiling for it is extremely low most of the people getting perfect scores are 130+ IQ who never did any preparation other than taking a couple of practice tests.
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  189. tamo says:
    @FKA Max
    Turn of the Screw

    ONE GOOD TURN
    A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw.
    By Witold Rybczynski.


    What Rybczynski sees is that everything that requires mechanical precision, and that includes the instrumentation of modern science, rises out of the perfection of the simple screw and the complex machinery required to manufacture these indispensable items. He notes at the conclusion of the book that science (sometimes self-deprecatingly or self-consciously called ''Western science'') did not develop in cultures unfamiliar with the screw. In China, for example, where astrology did not evolve into astronomy or alchemy into chemistry, he writes, ''They didn't know screws at all: the screw is the only major mechanical device that they did not independently invent.''
     
    - https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/00/09/10/reviews/000910.10mont.html

    It is considered by some that the screw thread was invented in about 400BC by Archytas of Tarentum (428 BC - 350 BC). Archytas is sometimes called the founder of mechanics and was a contemporary of Plato. One of the first applications of the screw principle was in presses for the extraction of oils from olives and juice from grapes. The oil presses in Pomeii were worked by the screw principle.

    Archimedes (287 BC - 212 BC) developed the screw principle and used it to construct devices to raise water. The water screw may have originated in Egypt before the time of Archimedes. It was constructed from wood and was used for land irrigation and to remove bilge-water from ships. The Romans applied the Archimedean screw to mine drainage. The screw was described in the first century AD in Mechanica of Heron of Alexandria. - http://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw2.htm

    The screw press which allowed direct pressure to be applied on flat-plane was already of great antiquity in Gutenberg's time and was used for a wide range of tasks.[11] Introduced in the 1st century AD by the Romans, it was commonly employed in agricultural production for pressing wine grapes and (olive) oil fruit, both of which formed an integral part of the mediterranean and medieval diet.[12] The device was also used from very early on in urban contexts as a cloth press for printing patterns.[13] Gutenberg may have also been inspired by the paper presses which had spread through the German lands since the late 14th century and which worked on the same mechanical principles.
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press#Technological_factors

    What the Romans Did For Us Life of Luxury Ep 1 ©BBC

    The screw press, reconstructed using traditional techniques by carpenter Henry Russell, was used to produce wine. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Romans_Did_for_Us

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSTj2QUSlrI

    The absence of the continuous screw and worm in traditional China SHOULDN’T be taken to mean no helicoidal forms were in China; on the contrary, there were many of those things. For example,there was the zoetrope, or vane-wheel rotated by by an ascending air current, or the helicopter top or horizontal air-screw which itself ascended when rapidly rotated by a cord, The skew-set vanes of all sch devices were (like the oblique paddle-boards of horizontal water mills or the sails of early vertical windmills) essentially separate flat surfaces tangent to the continuously curving helix of a complete screw or worm. So it s possible to define rather precisely the different achievements of the Hellenistic and Chinese worlds, for while the Greeks made abundant applications of elongated screw and worm shapes, the Chinese early developed tangent-plane helicoid structures. According to Dr. Peter Liu of Harvard University who published his research paper in Science, China invented the complex (compound) machine about 2550 years ago. That’s about 600 years earlier than Hero of Alexandria was previously thought to have invented the machine. For your information, science itself was born in the Islamic civilization in the 11th century with the birth of EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD that the medieval European scholars eagerly copied thus bringing science to Europe. For your information, all the ancient civilizations were PRE-SCIENTIFIC. Without the Islamic invention of SCIENCE itself, there would have been NO MODERN SCIENCE in Europe.

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    See comment with video here:

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?
     
    - https://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2488512

    Many of the so-called Golden Age of Islam advances were actually advances made by other cultures and “borrowed” by Arabs and converts to Islam, or by Jews and Christians living as dhimmis. Islamic texts often have an unscientific tinge to them, such as Quran 18:83–86 and Sunan Abu Dawud 3991, which describe the Sun setting in a pool of hot or muddy water. The so-called Arabic numerals came from India. Al-Khwarizmi called them “Hindu numerals.” Algebra, a word coined by the same Al-Khwarizmi, goes as far back as the Babylonians. Al-Khwarizmi used translated Greek texts, and was raised a Zoroastrian in medieval Persia. Others had to disobey Islamic laws in order to make their discoveries, such as Ibn al-Nafis, who secretly dissected human bodies to learn about circulation. One of the top translators of ancient Greek texts into Arabic was Hunayn ibn Ishaq, a Nestorian Christian.
     
    - https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages and https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages/answer/Richard-Warner-26
    , @FKA Max
    Bill Warner, PhD: Why We Are Afraid: 1400 Years of Fear - Czech Sub-titles

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5_QQVYlpA

    Did Islam Destroy Classical Civilizations?
    John J. O'Neill

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180829054753/https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr

    Decline of Classical Civilization
    "One of the most enduring problems of history is the decline of Classical Civilization.
    How is it, scholars have long asked, that the civilization of Greece and Rome, which
    had endured over a thousand years, gave way to the world of the Medieval, an age
    which saw, for a while, the decline and apparent disappearance of the rationalist spirit
    of Greece and Rome?
    In academic and journalistic literature and in the popular imagination, there is no
    mystery at all. After the Barbarian Invasions of the 5th century, we are told, the
    peoples of Western Europe reverted to living in thatched, wattle-and-daub huts. Cities
    were destroyed and abandoned, the art of writing virtually lost, and the mass of the
    population kept in a state of ignorance by an obscurantist and fanatical Church, which
    effectively completed the destructive work of the Barbarians. Into this darkened
    stage, the Arabs arrived in the 7th and 8th centuries like a ray of light. Tolerant and
    learned, they brought knowledge of the science of antiquity back into Europe and,
    under their influence, Westerners began the long journey back to civilization.
    That, in a nutshell, is the story told in an enormous number of scholarly treatises and
    academic textbooks. It is a story implicitly accepted by a large majority of
    professional historians, both in Europe and North America; and yet it is a version of
    the past that is completely and utterly false. Indeed, it would be difficult to imagine a
    narrative further removed from what actually happened."
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  190. @attilathehen
    As I have commented before, most commentators on this website and several others can be grouped into 3 types: RCCers who accept black/Asian priests-popes, insane anti-Semites and Western males involved with Asian females.

    Many commentators scribble about the JQ: Jewish Question. When I found out that many commentators are involved with Asian females this cleared up many of the contradictions and hypocrisy posted by these commentators. John Derbyshire is exhibit A.

    My language is mild compared to what I have seen from other commentators. I had to give the Asian female problem a name: Asian Poontang Problem (APP). This is why I ask the Western commentators if they are involved with Asian women. If they are, they are worthless to the West.

    The German Reader is not involved with Asian female, but I have a feeling he is planning on this in the future. Hence his degenerate interest in Vietnam. He will not fight for his true country - Germany.

    Is there APP in your life?

    Is there APP in your life?

    I’d say the appellation is vulgar, but my homie Ted Nugent published a song using the word and honestly Detriot itself is more vulgar than any word. I have a cracker poontang problem (CPP) but I chose my fate and must abide it. The problem isn’t that she’s a cracker, since everybody in my family is, but that she’s female and that is problem enough for me.

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    "Cracker"

    That's fine, but don't extend your definition of white to German-Americans or Italian-Americans. We are not wandering around wearing Confederate belts and our ancestors were not British freebooters who settled in the pine barrens with some squaw.

    We Yankee whites have our own heritage.
    , @attilathehen
    At least your keeping it in the Western family.
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  191. @Jeff Stryker
    DANIEL

    Just as Rome was toppled by Northern barbarians, so too did Northern barbarians known as Manchu from Siberia invade China and become its ruling elite.

    In this respect, Manchu were analogous to both the Germanic tribes that sacked Rome and the Normans who invaded England in 1066.

    We can sit here and argue which culture was more barbaric. It would be pointless.

    Eh. I don’t think anyone is arguing who’s more barbaric. Its overall quite pointless.

    The Manchu have since ceased to have an identity, though, so in that sense China was much more successfully in absorbing them in total than the Germanics were by Rome. A more accurate comparison would be the Mongols, who also triggered a great deal of civilization destruction.

    Tang and Song were definitely ahead of Europe, though since Han was roughly equivalent(I’ve gone through this once, with a number of metrics) and then Europe self-destructed into the Dark Ages.

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    Europeans stumbled upon industrialization sooner, and mostly by accident. Civilizations get a temporary advantage and this changes the game for a few centuries.
    , @AnonFromTN
    The great strength of China was always the size of the population. It absorbed Manchu, and Mongols before them, due to sheer numbers. China is doing the same thing with Uighurs in Xinjiang, the government simply encourages Han people to move there. BTW, Chinese pronounce Uighur as Wiger, which means a totally different thing in the US.

    In the Soviet Union during tensions with China there was a joke about Sino-Soviet war. Day one. The Army command reports to the party bosses: today we surrendered 100 million. Day two: today we surrendered 200 million. Day three: today we surrendered 300 million. Let them figure out who is who’s prisoner.

    In all this assimilation thing, I always wondered what the results are genetically. For example, Han people do not have sweat glands in their armpits, whereas others do. Do assimilated and Sinicized Mongols, Manchu, and Uighurs still have sweat glands?
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  192. @AnonFromTN
    Two people with dominant phenotype (black) can have a child with recessive phenotype (white), if both are heterozygotes. The same is true for two brown-eyed people: they can have a blue-eyed child, if they are heterozygotes. However, two blue-eyed people cannot possibly have a brown-eyed child (the participation of the third person in this case is 100% assured).

    America simply attracted many entrepreneurs from Europe after the Civil War.

    At that point, industrialization and a booming surplus economy fueled invention. Levi Strauss, for example, was a German Jew who discovered that miners would purchase jeans. For example.

    The other colonies mostly attracted completely impoverished English settlers from Dickensian conditions in UK.

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  193. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo
    Get off this Euro -white supremacy bullshit. When Germans were running around in animal skins in the ancient Europe, China's Han dynasty already had the essentials of a sophisticated modern state. After fall of the Western Roman Empire, ignorant, barbaric, low-iq conquering Germans couldn't run the old empire so that things in western Europe went backward like aqueducts and roads being in severe disrepair. These dismal conditions lasted for many hundred years because Germans couldn't have the skills or knowledge to preserve and build on what's left by the Romans. You said "The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich". You sound like you are describing America or many European countries, lol !!! Rejuvenation of Christendom? I don't think so. Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion and America where less and less young people become Christian and by 2045, there is a good chance the whites in America will be a minority.

    The Renaissance Myth

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html Archived link: http://archive.is/iZmxu

    Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion [...]

    Europe has been under threat of Muslim invasion for 1300 years, which, incidentally, is also what caused and contributed to the “Dark Ages”…

    Did Islam cause the Dark Ages?

    [MORE]

    Where the so-called Dark Ages actually “dark”? Not at first. The barbarian invaders admired Roman civilization. When Alaric the Goth (Visigoth) sacked Rome in 410, the capital of the western empire had already been moved to Ravenna. The Goths had originally been supporters of Rome and served in its military, but after the Huns forced them to move, they faced discrimination from the Romans and their support turned to resentment.
    [...]
    Essentially, the entire Dark Ages consisted of relentless attacks by Muslims. They came on slaving raids, sometimes enslaving entire towns. They committed mass murder, killing hundreds of thousands to millions. Thousands of churches were destroyed. Education declined because the papyrus supply was cut off after Egypt was captured by Umar, the second caliph, in 640. Thereafter, Europeans had to reuse old texts and parchment became a luxury. Without a supply of paper for learning, poor Europeans grew increasingly illiterate. While Europe was under constant bombardment, so was North Africa, India and even China.
    [...]
    The only reasonable conclusion is that Islam indeed caused what was known as the Dark Ages.

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Destruction of Classical Civilization

    A historical account of 1300 years of jihad against western civilization and the spread of Islam.

    Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?

    Read More
    • Replies: @tamo
    The Dark Ages in Europe was MAINLY caused by the inability of ignorant and far less intelligent Germanic tribes to run the old empire after they sacked and took over the more advanced Roman Empire. At this time period, Europe was at the bottom of the heap. The Islamic civilization was MUCH MUCH MORE advanced than the third-rate Europe.
    , @Seraphim
    It is time to see the light through the 'Dark Ages', but you have to shed the politically correct blinkers that Islam brought the 'Renaissance' to a Europe stultified by the Church bigotry. And not be afraid that you will be called an 'Islamophobe'. Actually the light was saved in Europe against the true spread of the Dark Age of Islam.
    , @Logan
    What this comes down to is: Did western Europe go into steep civilizational decline in the late 400s or the mid 600s?

    For several decades it's been fashionable to talk about "the continuity of late antiquity" rather than "the Fall of Rome." This is of course revisionist history.

    Recently read a short but very interesting book. https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End-Civilization/dp/0192807285

    In it the author, I think, does a great job of disassembling the myth that Rome didn't fall. It did, though at different times in different areas, and the depth of the fall also varied a great deal by place. What is now England, for instance, went waaayy down. Just about lost the ability to make pottery, for example. Writing completely disappeared.

    Also, if we're going to blame the loss of civilization on raiders, we need to look farther than the Muslims. Magyars were raiding from the east, and they got as far as Spain. The Vikings raided from the north, and they got just about everywhere there was a coast or river. The Muslims raided from the south, and they got well up into what is now France and Italy, controlling many of the Alpine passes for most of the 10th century.

    I've sometimes thought it would be interesting to set a novel or movie in, say, Provence in the 940s. Muslim, Magyar and Norse raiders have a three-way set-to.
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  194. tamo says:
    @Jeff Stryker
    China was taken over by Manchurian nomads from Siberia far into Medieval times and Manchu became the rulers of China so barbarians were not simply running Rome.

    The Manchus took over China in the 17th century. Their rule lasted about 250 years. But during this time period, the Manchus were almost completely became SINICIZED. You can find very few Manchus in the North East (formerly Manchuria)

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    I'd compare them to the Normans. However, China was nonetheless taken over by these barbarians.

    Then again, barbarians have taken over the inner-cities of the US. Primitive physical courage and a complete lack of ethics as well as nothing to lose always gives barbarians the edge.
    , @Nawyr
    And becore that, Mongols had taken over China.

    And before that, it was Jurchen nomads.

    And before that, it was Turks.

    Etc.

    Spotting a pattern here?
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  195. @FKA Max
    There almost as many ethnic Germans in the U.S. as there are in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans and German Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans are still the U.S.'s largest ethnic group.

    26 Maps That Show How Ethnic Groups Are Divided Across America

    https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-of-ancestry-groups-in-america-2013-9

    https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/522c73e4eab8ea2a6c69647c-960-708.jpg

    Norwegians are strongest in Fargo! I thought they all lived in Alabama. What a revelation.

    Most Italians live in the Northeast? This would make sense, the Yankee factory owners did not want the issue of slavery and could pay Sicilians a pittance.

    Chinese live in New York and California for the most part? Why would you immigrate anywhere else?

    French live on the border of Quebec and Vermont or down in Louisiana?

    This is a revelation.

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  196. @gmachine1729
    I wonder what percentage of the people who subscribe to all the Chinese lack creativity and China's system cannot be innovative talk is actually in serious STEM. It's more of a popular perception as far as I can tell, and often, what the legitimate experts know of is quite different from what's sold to the general public. Chinese mostly ignore this shit, though surely, it does do some reputation damage that is increasingly being countered.

    It's long occurred to me that in objective capability and competence, Chinese are actually pretty good, though of course there is still room for improvement. It's marketing that China is much more deficient in due to cultural differences and partial isolation from the mainstream. An interesting analogy I thought of is that China is like a powerful self-funded entrepreneur in defiance of the VC system, whose role is taken by America, which means China does not get substantial marketing and connection benefits from being VC-funded, making recognition much more of an uphill battle. The upside is full ownership and control, and the possibility of eventually displacing the VC structure.

    I wonder what percentage of the people who subscribe to all the Chinese lack creativity and China’s system cannot be innovative talk is actually in serious STEM.

    I’m fairly well engaged and its probably true. The specific mechanism likely has to do with stronger inhibitory systems which seem to also compromise creativity. Understanding the brain is necessary in order to modify its behavior, if desired but its also an useful lesson that nature works in boom/bust methods rather than any specific angle of balance.

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    • Replies: @Miro23

    Understanding the brain is necessary in order to modify its behavior, if desired but it's also an useful lesson that nature works in boom/bust methods rather than any specific angle of balance.
     
    Agree with that, and the classic over-ripe fruit is Empire.

    When societies reach the" Imperial stage" they invariably ascribe their dominance (even while falling apart) to ethnic/biological/racial superiority. It happens every time . Who has ever heard of a humble Imperialist?

    It was finally true with regard to the Roman Citizen, The Englishman, the Germanic Superman, post war Americans (Shining "City on a Hill") and the current racial doctrines of 21st century Jewish Imperialism. The Chinese will be no different, and will no doubt ascribe their Imperial power to the ethnic superiority of the Chinese - giving them a convenient and obvious right to subjugate lesser races. They will have no problems with it, and are already giving it a trial run in South East Asia.

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  197. tamo says:
    @attilathehen
    And yet, the modern world we have today is a strictly Western creation. Blacks/Asians have to stop appropriating Western culture, i.e., airplanes, computers, telephones, cars, etc.

    The Chinese can use the abacus for their calculations.

    For your information, before the Industrial Revolution, Europe copied a lot of Chinese technologies without which the SPREAD of Renaissance, European gunpowder -based weapons revolution, the European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution would have been IMPOSSIBLE. According to Robert Temple, a well-respected scholar of the Oriental Studies, more than half of the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution came from China. By looking at the things going on now, I think there is a very good chance China will RECLAIM it’s position as the technology superpower that it lost with the coming of the Industrial Revolution, by 2040.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    I agree, China will reclaim its position as the technological superpower by 2040, as you say.

    Then you can relax. You've proven yourself. No one is superior to you.

    After that, I hope you can also reclaim the traditional Chinese attitude of not caring so much about this stuff and having nothing to prove.

    Right now China has accepted white values and seeks to prove itself in the white mans world - if you could do what the white man does, even better, then you will have worth. What the white man deems worthy - you seem worthy.

    I understand why you need to do this, and I hope you do it soon - then I hope you step out of the shadow of the white man and his values and reclaim your old culture.

    When we want something very bad and don't yet have it, it seems incredibly desirable - often, when we get it, it's disappointing.
    , @attilathehen
    Here's Robert Temple's wiki: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Robert_Temple

    His "oriental studies" were with APP. This guy is a nutcase. Asia/Africa had nothing to do with the West's development. Read Ricardo Duchesne's book The Uniqueness of Western Civilization.

    China never was and never will be great again. The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians and are the only Asians with a first world country. China will never do this. China is collapsing. Over 400 million abortions in the past 30 years have now made it the fastest aging country in the world. Coupled with an average IQ of 90, this has brought about China's end. This is good news.

    If you wan to believe China is great, do it in China, not the West.

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  198. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo
    The absence of the continuous screw and worm in traditional China SHOULDN'T be taken to mean no helicoidal forms were in China; on the contrary, there were many of those things. For example,there was the zoetrope, or vane-wheel rotated by by an ascending air current, or the helicopter top or horizontal air-screw which itself ascended when rapidly rotated by a cord, The skew-set vanes of all sch devices were (like the oblique paddle-boards of horizontal water mills or the sails of early vertical windmills) essentially separate flat surfaces tangent to the continuously curving helix of a complete screw or worm. So it s possible to define rather precisely the different achievements of the Hellenistic and Chinese worlds, for while the Greeks made abundant applications of elongated screw and worm shapes, the Chinese early developed tangent-plane helicoid structures. According to Dr. Peter Liu of Harvard University who published his research paper in Science, China invented the complex (compound) machine about 2550 years ago. That's about 600 years earlier than Hero of Alexandria was previously thought to have invented the machine. For your information, science itself was born in the Islamic civilization in the 11th century with the birth of EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD that the medieval European scholars eagerly copied thus bringing science to Europe. For your information, all the ancient civilizations were PRE-SCIENTIFIC. Without the Islamic invention of SCIENCE itself, there would have been NO MODERN SCIENCE in Europe.

    See comment with video here:

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?

    https://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2488512

    Many of the so-called Golden Age of Islam advances were actually advances made by other cultures and “borrowed” by Arabs and converts to Islam, or by Jews and Christians living as dhimmis. Islamic texts often have an unscientific tinge to them, such as Quran 18:83–86 and Sunan Abu Dawud 3991, which describe the Sun setting in a pool of hot or muddy water. The so-called Arabic numerals came from India. Al-Khwarizmi called them “Hindu numerals.” Algebra, a word coined by the same Al-Khwarizmi, goes as far back as the Babylonians. Al-Khwarizmi used translated Greek texts, and was raised a Zoroastrian in medieval Persia. Others had to disobey Islamic laws in order to make their discoveries, such as Ibn al-Nafis, who secretly dissected human bodies to learn about circulation. One of the top translators of ancient Greek texts into Arabic was Hunayn ibn Ishaq, a Nestorian Christian.

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages and https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages/answer/Richard-Warner-26

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    • Replies: @tamo
    Sure, there were some Jews and converted-Christian moslems who contributed to the Islamic science and mathematics. That doesn't mean the Islamic science and mathematics were dominated by Jews and converted Christian moslems. Just like there are Chinese and Indian scientists and mathematicians contributing to the American science. But a vast majority of scientists and mathematicians in America are Americans. Also Ibn al Haytam is considered the first scientist in the world history by some scholars. His Book of Optics is the world's first scientific treatise that greatly influenced many European scientists.
    Also there is a good chance "the Hindu-Arabic Numerals were originated from China because there are a lot of similarities between the"Hindu-Arabic" Numerals and more ancient Chinese counting rod numerals. Read THE DEVELOPMENT OF HINDU -ARABIC AND TRADITIONAL CHINESE ARITHMETIC by Dr. Lam Lay Yong, a member of The International Academy of The History of Science. You talk about ancient Greek "science" and math influencing the Arabic scholars . How about the ancient Greeks copying math, astronomy, medicine from the ancient Babylonians who just happen to be the ANCESTORS of Arabs ? For your information, Hippocratic Oath was heavily copied from a more ancient Babylonian medical text and circulation of blood was NOT discovered by either Arabs or William Harvey. It was discovered by Chinese in the 2nd century BC.
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  199. @Daniel Chieh
    Eh. I don't think anyone is arguing who's more barbaric. Its overall quite pointless.

    The Manchu have since ceased to have an identity, though, so in that sense China was much more successfully in absorbing them in total than the Germanics were by Rome. A more accurate comparison would be the Mongols, who also triggered a great deal of civilization destruction.

    Tang and Song were definitely ahead of Europe, though since Han was roughly equivalent(I've gone through this once, with a number of metrics) and then Europe self-destructed into the Dark Ages.

    Europeans stumbled upon industrialization sooner, and mostly by accident. Civilizations get a temporary advantage and this changes the game for a few centuries.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I've written about this before, but I actually believe that Catholicism, especially Catholic rationalism, was a huge boost for European science. Any of the early books by Bacon or Linnaeus shows strong religious undertones to discover the divine through physical knowledge; a variation of this are scientists who seek to discover God through analysis of Pi or quantum mechanics to this day.

    By making pursuit of knowledge into something metaphysical, it gave it value and worth well beyond the practical(this is also visible in European alchemy). Note that the Greeks, who developed rationality and arguably had all of the basics needed for science, did not pursuit it because it was seen as abolishing the need for slaves. Christianity may have tolerated slavery, but did not advocate it, and therefore had no such compunctions.
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  200. @tamo
    The Manchus took over China in the 17th century. Their rule lasted about 250 years. But during this time period, the Manchus were almost completely became SINICIZED. You can find very few Manchus in the North East (formerly Manchuria)

    I’d compare them to the Normans. However, China was nonetheless taken over by these barbarians.

    Then again, barbarians have taken over the inner-cities of the US. Primitive physical courage and a complete lack of ethics as well as nothing to lose always gives barbarians the edge.

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    • Replies: @tamo
    There is big difference. At the end, instead of dominated by " bamarians" the Han Chinese dominated over Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans, Uyghurs.
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  201. @Stan d Mute

    Is there APP in your life?
     
    I’d say the appellation is vulgar, but my homie Ted Nugent published a song using the word and honestly Detriot itself is more vulgar than any word. I have a cracker poontang problem (CPP) but I chose my fate and must abide it. The problem isn’t that she’s a cracker, since everybody in my family is, but that she’s female and that is problem enough for me.

    “Cracker”

    That’s fine, but don’t extend your definition of white to German-Americans or Italian-Americans. We are not wandering around wearing Confederate belts and our ancestors were not British freebooters who settled in the pine barrens with some squaw.

    We Yankee whites have our own heritage.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Why are you living in Asia with APP? You couldn't find a Yankee woman with whom you could share your heritage? You say German and Italian Americans are not white? You sound just like Derbyshire.
    , @Stan d Mute

    We Yankee whites have our own heritage.
     
    Yes, one of cuckoldry and fanatical stupidity. See Quakers and Shakers.

    “Cracker”
     
    Partly because I’m lazy and partly because I just don’t give a shit, I’ll quite fakipedia:

    Cracker, sometimes white cracker or "cracka", is a colloquial term for white people,[1] used especially for poor rural whites in the Southern United States. It is also at times used indiscriminately and pejoratively against any person of white background. However, it is sometimes used in a neutral or positive context or self-descriptively with pride in reference to a native of Florida or Georgia (see Florida cracker and Georgia cracker).[2]
     
    In my decade living in South Florida, some of the best folks I met were crackers. I embrace the term much more than I embrace my familial lineage to circus freak Quakers. Crackers take no shit from anybody. A cracker will take on a 1,000lb alligator single-handedly, a Quaker will offer his daughters up to African savages in atonement.

    You go ahead and be a Quaker, I’ll stick with being a cracker.
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  202. AaronB says:
    @tamo
    For your information, before the Industrial Revolution, Europe copied a lot of Chinese technologies without which the SPREAD of Renaissance, European gunpowder -based weapons revolution, the European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution would have been IMPOSSIBLE. According to Robert Temple, a well-respected scholar of the Oriental Studies, more than half of the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution came from China. By looking at the things going on now, I think there is a very good chance China will RECLAIM it's position as the technology superpower that it lost with the coming of the Industrial Revolution, by 2040.

    I agree, China will reclaim its position as the technological superpower by 2040, as you say.

    Then you can relax. You’ve proven yourself. No one is superior to you.

    After that, I hope you can also reclaim the traditional Chinese attitude of not caring so much about this stuff and having nothing to prove.

    Right now China has accepted white values and seeks to prove itself in the white mans world – if you could do what the white man does, even better, then you will have worth. What the white man deems worthy – you seem worthy.

    I understand why you need to do this, and I hope you do it soon – then I hope you step out of the shadow of the white man and his values and reclaim your old culture.

    When we want something very bad and don’t yet have it, it seems incredibly desirable – often, when we get it, it’s disappointing.

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    • Agree: Talha
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  203. @Daniel Chieh
    Eh. I don't think anyone is arguing who's more barbaric. Its overall quite pointless.

    The Manchu have since ceased to have an identity, though, so in that sense China was much more successfully in absorbing them in total than the Germanics were by Rome. A more accurate comparison would be the Mongols, who also triggered a great deal of civilization destruction.

    Tang and Song were definitely ahead of Europe, though since Han was roughly equivalent(I've gone through this once, with a number of metrics) and then Europe self-destructed into the Dark Ages.

    The great strength of China was always the size of the population. It absorbed Manchu, and Mongols before them, due to sheer numbers. China is doing the same thing with Uighurs in Xinjiang, the government simply encourages Han people to move there. BTW, Chinese pronounce Uighur as Wiger, which means a totally different thing in the US.

    In the Soviet Union during tensions with China there was a joke about Sino-Soviet war. Day one. The Army command reports to the party bosses: today we surrendered 100 million. Day two: today we surrendered 200 million. Day three: today we surrendered 300 million. Let them figure out who is who’s prisoner.

    In all this assimilation thing, I always wondered what the results are genetically. For example, Han people do not have sweat glands in their armpits, whereas others do. Do assimilated and Sinicized Mongols, Manchu, and Uighurs still have sweat glands?

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    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Amen

    The great strength of China was always the size of the population.
     
    It's not a strength, it's a liability. The average Chinese will always be much poorer than the average westerner due to its 1.4 billion mouths to feed.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I have sweat glands but I'm part Mongol.
    , @Hbd investor
    >The great strength of China was always the size of the population

    Mixing up the chicken and the egg, China’s strength has always been a high genetic IQ.

    High IQ caused high population, advances in agricultural technology because of high IQ led to China’s massive population

    China’s massive population didn’t spring up out of thin air. Nor was China blessed with incredible farmland
    , @dux.ie
    The ignorance among East Asians and Westerners is that they are unaware that more than 40% modern Chinese are actually latent carriers of the recessive red hair gene, see

    https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2228479

    "rs2228479, known as Val92Met or V92M, is one of several SNPs in the MC1R gene commonly associated with red (or blond) hair and poor tanning, but note its high presence in one Asian population [PMID 7581459, PMID 16463023]"

    where CHB is Beijing Chinese and CHD is ChineseAmerican in Denver. The source of that particular red hair gene is different from the common European red hair genes and it is traced to be originated in very ancient time from the Altai region on the north western China, it is not of European origin. However red hair gene is recessive, i.e. it will not be expressed in the presence of the dominant black hair genes. However if the latent carrier marries a westerner the admix children might have red hair, as in the CHD situation the percentage of those with genotype AA is 5.9% and may be 4% might have real red hair.

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  204. tamo says:
    @Jeff Stryker
    I'd compare them to the Normans. However, China was nonetheless taken over by these barbarians.

    Then again, barbarians have taken over the inner-cities of the US. Primitive physical courage and a complete lack of ethics as well as nothing to lose always gives barbarians the edge.

    There is big difference. At the end, instead of dominated by ” bamarians” the Han Chinese dominated over Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans, Uyghurs.

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    • Replies: @Nawyr
    No they didn't. Manchu remained in power and the people in China today in power have Manchu genetics. Han Chinese culture had been Manchurianized -- that's why all those Han Chinese coming to the USA back in the day were wearing shaved heads and long braids.
    , @Jeff Stryker
    Manchurian were the Normans to Hans Anglo-Celts crossed with the Vandals that sacked Rome.

    They became the ruling elite of China and forced Fuji Chinese to flee all the way South in the near-tropics even though Manchurian were from Siberia.

    So that is sort of backwards. The Manchurian, a vaguely Eurasian Siberian tribe from Russia, took over China.

    Uighur also successfully invaded China from Turkey.

    So many people got over the wall.

    Han cornered the seaboard and Eastern interior but the Manchurian really squashed them and the Turks to this day semi-own Uighur Western China.

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  205. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Sure, but the Nature Index (unlike Nobel Prizes) is a current measure of high quality scientific output, i.e. published in the world's top few dozen journals.

    As the member of previous genius class in the China best university in 90s, I found that nearly all of my classmates were busy in making money rather than doing pure research & academic jobs, no matter how smart they were proved in IMO, IPhO, etc.

    The key reason I guess: food & shelter were highly prioritized (reflected as money) in the mind after over 100 years of deep poverty and hunger.

    Now the status has been changed, but the new generation still needs more time for mature scientific culture and ecosystem, which costed 50~100 years in the history of west countries.

    i.e, I don’t think that the current Nature Index is good indicator for your viewpoint.

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    • Replies: @gmachine1729
    还有科大少年班校友在这上面啊?真没想到这里会吸引那么多中国人。这说起,您现在在做啥啊?我感觉中国科技大学校友在美国留在学术界拿到终身教职的还真不少。
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    UR commenter Daniel Chieh recently told us about an acquaintance of his who wanted to do AI research at a leading Beijing university, but his family pressured him into becoming a (higher-paid) office drone. With China's traditions of filial piety, whose overweening nature was remarked upon by Westerners even in the 19th century, this is going to be a hard pattern to break.
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  206. @Jeff Stryker
    "Cracker"

    That's fine, but don't extend your definition of white to German-Americans or Italian-Americans. We are not wandering around wearing Confederate belts and our ancestors were not British freebooters who settled in the pine barrens with some squaw.

    We Yankee whites have our own heritage.

    Why are you living in Asia with APP? You couldn’t find a Yankee woman with whom you could share your heritage? You say German and Italian Americans are not white? You sound just like Derbyshire.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    I say German-Americans and Italian-Americans are not white? I say they are not crackers.
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  207. Truth says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    There was never a “One child” – abort the next – policy. More Western propaganda?
     
    This is true as it stands, JGarbo, there was no government abortion policy that I've heard about. I also know someone whose cousins had a 2nd child, and the girl could not be registered for school (goes along with the theory of why # of girls may be "catching up"), and the 2 parents were fired from their workplace.

    However, that doesn't mean that lots of Chinese Moms didn't have abortions when they found out a girl was on the way. In fact, there was government policy enacted within a decade ago that forbid divulgence of the sex of a fetus to the parents for this reason. You've got to understand that 90% of Chinese were very poor up until 15 - 20 years back, and there are still hundreds of millionns of very poor Chinese people. They almost all still want a boy for taking care of the parents during old age, and they may not have the money to support more than one. Unlike American ghetto dwellers, even the very poor over there are responsible (that's a topic for another discussion).

    Maybe you didn't read the "propaganda" thoroughly, but your engineering prof. sounds on the level.

    Unlike American ghetto dwellers, even the very poor over there are responsible (that’s a topic for another discussion).

    Terminating a life because you didn’t get exactly what you want is, “responsible?”

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Nah, not the abortion, Truth. They are responsible in mentality. That means they don't want to have a kid and plan on letting other people pay to raise them, as is done here. Abortion is done just as much in the black ghetto, but then you still end up with 2 or 3 (sometimes more) that other people, trying to raise their own kids responsibly, have to pay for.

    The responsible ones in China who still insisted on having boys would just have raised them off-the-grid, which is pretty much not a choice in parts of China even now. I mean, though, that they could not be registered in school and all that. I know people who had 7 kids in order to have a boy (he was #7, of course), but they didn't expect fellow Chinamen to pay for those. The only ones who helped, besides family, were Americans! Yes, Americans - even in the 1970's, we had been sending them corn. Sure it was feed corn, but you don't look a gift capitalist roader in the mouth, right?
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  208. @Stan d Mute

    Is there APP in your life?
     
    I’d say the appellation is vulgar, but my homie Ted Nugent published a song using the word and honestly Detriot itself is more vulgar than any word. I have a cracker poontang problem (CPP) but I chose my fate and must abide it. The problem isn’t that she’s a cracker, since everybody in my family is, but that she’s female and that is problem enough for me.

    At least your keeping it in the Western family.

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  209. Amen says:
    @Bill P
    All I have to see to know these stats are bogus is the map showing Sichuan with a higher IQ than Guangdong.

    Chinese statistics are notoriously unreliable, so I don't think anyone ought to put much faith in these numbers. They also deliberately fudge the numbers by, for example, not counting migrant workers and their children in stats for places like Shanghai and Beijing. This despite the fact that births to migrants are likely the majority of all births in these places. Migrant workers' children are typically banned from attending official schools, so they obviously won't be included in test results.

    Chinese are smart, but there are reasons to doubt this will translate to technological and civilizational dominance. In addition to a clumsy, Bronze Age writing system, China has a remarkably primitive legal tradition by Western standards. Rule of Law is a concept that has never been applied in China, and there are no serious efforts to implement it. This depresses innovation for the obvious reason that the powerful (or even the merely crafty and unscrupulous) can expropriate intellectual property and leave the innovator with no reliable means for obtaining compensation.

    Additionally, rampant cheating and fakery mean that separating the wheat from the chaff is very difficult. Efforts to address this, such as the new "social credit" system, are only as effective as the people running it, which again brings us back to the law issue: if those setting the standards are not held to objective standards themselves, isn't it inevitable that they will begin to abuse their power in ways that put their own interests ahead of the people's?

    Even if IQ is higher on average than, say, Norway, what's to keep Chinese from stepping on their neighbors to rise higher in the social hierarchy? And when they do finally arrive at the top, what's to keep them from pulling up the ladder and even hurling impediments at those who would follow them? This is in fact the Chinese way. Although this tendency is common throughout humanity, Chinese have few cultural practices to mitigate this behavior, having instead institutionalized it. This is why China needs constant growth to prevent revolutionary sentiment from arising: the entire society is essentially a giant ponzi scheme that is prone to collapse when it runs out of steam.

    Spot on! China is the Wild East and probably always will be. Dishonesty and selfishness are ingrained in the Chinese culture. The day China leads the world is the day the world plunges into darkness. Just look at advanced societies with a dominant Chinese population such as Hong Kong or Taiwan, total dog-eat-dog, unpleasant societies even to visit, much less to live in. The only exception is Singapore and that’s only because they’ve adopted English as the lingua franca. But with the reversal back to Chinese and high immigration from China due to China’s rise, Singapore is sure to revert back to the corrupt Chinese ways.

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  210. @Patricus
    Yee is probably right about IQ studies being pseudo science. When I was a student in the 1970s the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores. It was then believed there were 10 or 12 different aptitudes including spoken language, written language, math, spatial reasoning and others. Somehow the single IQ score, which apparently explains everything, came back to popularity. Would these scores be allowed as evidence in a court of law?

    In the United States, the single IQ score is used to determine whether someone who has received the death penalty can be executed. People with an IQ of roughly 70 or below cannot be executed.

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  211. Amen says:
    @AnonFromTN
    The great strength of China was always the size of the population. It absorbed Manchu, and Mongols before them, due to sheer numbers. China is doing the same thing with Uighurs in Xinjiang, the government simply encourages Han people to move there. BTW, Chinese pronounce Uighur as Wiger, which means a totally different thing in the US.

    In the Soviet Union during tensions with China there was a joke about Sino-Soviet war. Day one. The Army command reports to the party bosses: today we surrendered 100 million. Day two: today we surrendered 200 million. Day three: today we surrendered 300 million. Let them figure out who is who’s prisoner.

    In all this assimilation thing, I always wondered what the results are genetically. For example, Han people do not have sweat glands in their armpits, whereas others do. Do assimilated and Sinicized Mongols, Manchu, and Uighurs still have sweat glands?

    The great strength of China was always the size of the population.

    It’s not a strength, it’s a liability. The average Chinese will always be much poorer than the average westerner due to its 1.4 billion mouths to feed.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    The number of people is the number of mouths to feed, but at the same time the number of goods’ producers. Besides, China produces real goods (just visit any store in the US: virtually everything, from nails and socks to computers and trendy clothes, is made in China), in contrast to the US, where ~60% of GDP is hot air (politically correct term is “financial services”; there are other tricks: at least 6% is “rent” home owners would have paid themselves if they were crazy enough to rent their homes from themselves).

    By your logic Malta should be the richest country in Europe, which is patently not true.
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  212. Nawyr says:
    @tamo
    The Manchus took over China in the 17th century. Their rule lasted about 250 years. But during this time period, the Manchus were almost completely became SINICIZED. You can find very few Manchus in the North East (formerly Manchuria)

    And becore that, Mongols had taken over China.

    And before that, it was Jurchen nomads.

    And before that, it was Turks.

    Etc.

    Spotting a pattern here?

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    • Replies: @tamo
    Yes, I spot the pattern. At the end, it's Han Chinese who prevail like after the collapse of the Manchu Qing dynasty.
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  213. Nawyr says:
    @tamo
    There is big difference. At the end, instead of dominated by " bamarians" the Han Chinese dominated over Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans, Uyghurs.

    No they didn’t. Manchu remained in power and the people in China today in power have Manchu genetics. Han Chinese culture had been Manchurianized — that’s why all those Han Chinese coming to the USA back in the day were wearing shaved heads and long braids.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Nonsense. It would have been the equivalent of Tecumseh's confederacy had successfully conquered the newly formed US with help from US defectors. They would rapidly find themselves incapable of administrating urban areas, and that nomadic norms wouldn't work. They would also not be able to stop their children from reading English books, watching English plays, or otherwise engaging in American culture.

    The most they could do would be to attempt to cargo cult some version of their old culture, which is basically what the Manchus did, but it was a stalling tactic. China now pays millions to try to preserve Manchu language and culture from being lost in total.
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  214. tamo says:
    @FKA Max
    See comment with video here:

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?
     
    - https://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2488512

    Many of the so-called Golden Age of Islam advances were actually advances made by other cultures and “borrowed” by Arabs and converts to Islam, or by Jews and Christians living as dhimmis. Islamic texts often have an unscientific tinge to them, such as Quran 18:83–86 and Sunan Abu Dawud 3991, which describe the Sun setting in a pool of hot or muddy water. The so-called Arabic numerals came from India. Al-Khwarizmi called them “Hindu numerals.” Algebra, a word coined by the same Al-Khwarizmi, goes as far back as the Babylonians. Al-Khwarizmi used translated Greek texts, and was raised a Zoroastrian in medieval Persia. Others had to disobey Islamic laws in order to make their discoveries, such as Ibn al-Nafis, who secretly dissected human bodies to learn about circulation. One of the top translators of ancient Greek texts into Arabic was Hunayn ibn Ishaq, a Nestorian Christian.
     
    - https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages and https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages/answer/Richard-Warner-26

    Sure, there were some Jews and converted-Christian moslems who contributed to the Islamic science and mathematics. That doesn’t mean the Islamic science and mathematics were dominated by Jews and converted Christian moslems. Just like there are Chinese and Indian scientists and mathematicians contributing to the American science. But a vast majority of scientists and mathematicians in America are Americans. Also Ibn al Haytam is considered the first scientist in the world history by some scholars. His Book of Optics is the world’s first scientific treatise that greatly influenced many European scientists.
    Also there is a good chance “the Hindu-Arabic Numerals were originated from China because there are a lot of similarities between the”Hindu-Arabic” Numerals and more ancient Chinese counting rod numerals. Read THE DEVELOPMENT OF HINDU -ARABIC AND TRADITIONAL CHINESE ARITHMETIC by Dr. Lam Lay Yong, a member of The International Academy of The History of Science. You talk about ancient Greek “science” and math influencing the Arabic scholars . How about the ancient Greeks copying math, astronomy, medicine from the ancient Babylonians who just happen to be the ANCESTORS of Arabs ? For your information, Hippocratic Oath was heavily copied from a more ancient Babylonian medical text and circulation of blood was NOT discovered by either Arabs or William Harvey. It was discovered by Chinese in the 2nd century BC.

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  215. tamo says:
    @FKA Max
    The Renaissance Myth

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html Archived link: http://archive.is/iZmxu

    Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion [...]
     
    Europe has been under threat of Muslim invasion for 1300 years, which, incidentally, is also what caused and contributed to the "Dark Ages"...

    Did Islam cause the Dark Ages?

    Where the so-called Dark Ages actually “dark”? Not at first. The barbarian invaders admired Roman civilization. When Alaric the Goth (Visigoth) sacked Rome in 410, the capital of the western empire had already been moved to Ravenna. The Goths had originally been supporters of Rome and served in its military, but after the Huns forced them to move, they faced discrimination from the Romans and their support turned to resentment.
    [...]
    Essentially, the entire Dark Ages consisted of relentless attacks by Muslims. They came on slaving raids, sometimes enslaving entire towns. They committed mass murder, killing hundreds of thousands to millions. Thousands of churches were destroyed. Education declined because the papyrus supply was cut off after Egypt was captured by Umar, the second caliph, in 640. Thereafter, Europeans had to reuse old texts and parchment became a luxury. Without a supply of paper for learning, poor Europeans grew increasingly illiterate. While Europe was under constant bombardment, so was North Africa, India and even China.
    [...]
    The only reasonable conclusion is that Islam indeed caused what was known as the Dark Ages.
     
    - https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Destruction of Classical Civilization

    A historical account of 1300 years of jihad against western civilization and the spread of Islam.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuxqXjhl13Y

    Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc

    The Dark Ages in Europe was MAINLY caused by the inability of ignorant and far less intelligent Germanic tribes to run the old empire after they sacked and took over the more advanced Roman Empire. At this time period, Europe was at the bottom of the heap. The Islamic civilization was MUCH MUCH MORE advanced than the third-rate Europe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sparkon

    The Dark Ages in Europe was MAINLY caused by the inability of ignorant and far less intelligent Germanic tribes to run the old empire after they sacked and took over the more advanced Roman Empire.
     
    No, I don't think so.

    In truth, the so-called Dark Ages were caused by rather severe climate change known as the Dark Age Cold Period, which was brought about by the eruption of a volcano or volcanoes in 536 and again in 542. Ejecta from these eruptions created a dense veil of acidic dust and ash that blocked the sun's radiation:


    An enormous volcanic eruption in the sixth century seems to have triggered catastrophic global cooling, perhaps precipitating famine, cultural conflict and plague across the planet.

    The theory offers an explanation for why historical records from the period make references to dimmer skies and a cooler climate. Documents from Ireland, for example, describe “a failure of bread” for a few years after 536 AD, and there are also accounts of summertime snow in China.

    The Byzantine historian Procopius wrote that in 536 “a most dread portent took place. For the sun gave forth its light without brightness… and it seemed exceedingly like the sun in eclipse, for the beams it shed were not clear.”

    Scientists have been studying evidence of this cold snap for more than 20 years. Tree rings from this time, for example, show that growth was slowed down by cold weather. The cause of these climate changes has been controversial. Now, however, it seems a volcano was to blame.
     

    https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080311/full/news.2008.665.html
    , @Talha

    The Islamic civilization was MUCH MUCH MORE advanced than the third-rate Europe.
     
    The rivalry between Islam and Christendom can, in certain respects, be seen as an extension of the ancient rivalry between the Greco-Romans (who went all in on Christianity and heavily influenced its development and culture) and the Persians (who went all in on Islam and heavily influenced its development and culture). Both those cultures had a very wide influence beyond their borders in their regions. The same way that the Greeks and Romans did much of the heavy lifting as far as science and math are concerned in Europe, most of the Islamic Golden Age in those categories belongs to the sophisticated Persians - the Arabs made a good showing, but are far outnumbered by Persian contributions (heck, the Persians even codified the Arabic language and grammar). This is sometimes obscured by the fact that Arabic was the lingua franca across the Muslim world and that many Persians had adopted Arabic names. Add on to that, the ability for communities from as far as Transoxiana to the Levant to the Iberian peninsula to communicate with each other in a single language and collaborate in science and technology (and having translated initial Greek works - as foundations to build upon - into Arabic) and you have the right mix for why Islamic civilization was advanced. Being close enough to borrow ideas from China and India was also extremely helpful. What do they say...location, location, location.

    Though Mr. Warner is an idiot and a Zionist tool, FKA Max makes some good points. There is little doubt that having lost many of the prized lands (like the fertile regions of Egypt, or the major intellectual centers like Damascus, etc.) made a significant difference in the ability of Europe to manage on its own without being able to rely on its Eastern wing.

    Another significant factor was that, with Pax Romana shattered, you basically had a house of cards with various Europeans fighting each other (as well as trying to defend from invasions from Muslims) - constant war not being very conducive to productivity in certain spheres like intellectual endeavors. Whereas on the other side, the expanding Islamic empire had established the opposite, a Pax Islamica within its very extensive borders (especially ending the centuries-old wars of rivalry between the Greeks and Persians). And though the Abbasid grip on power faded as early as the 11th century, it really wasn't until the Mongol invasions that it was completely smashed.

    Anyways, I hope China does well, but I also hope she returns to some of her more traditional (pre-Mao) past since I am a fan of that culture.

    Peace.
    , @FKA Max
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Pirenne#Islam

    The Pirenne Thesis

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4tu3M_su6g

    Read chapter "The Europe that Muslims Found" for some alternative/revisionist history:

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180829054753/https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2488731

    "In his Mohammed and Charlemagne, Henri Pirenne (of whom more later) devotes
    over 140 pages packed full of evidence to show that the economy, the arts and the sciences flourished under the Gothic kings, who employed their enormous wealth in the construction of brilliantly decorated residences and churches. By 500 AD, virtually all of the damage that had been done during the Invasions of the 5th century had been repaired, and cities flourished as they had under the old Imperial administration."

    Henri Pirenne - Mohammed and Charlemagne

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74TJoNL6E7E
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  216. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo
    The absence of the continuous screw and worm in traditional China SHOULDN'T be taken to mean no helicoidal forms were in China; on the contrary, there were many of those things. For example,there was the zoetrope, or vane-wheel rotated by by an ascending air current, or the helicopter top or horizontal air-screw which itself ascended when rapidly rotated by a cord, The skew-set vanes of all sch devices were (like the oblique paddle-boards of horizontal water mills or the sails of early vertical windmills) essentially separate flat surfaces tangent to the continuously curving helix of a complete screw or worm. So it s possible to define rather precisely the different achievements of the Hellenistic and Chinese worlds, for while the Greeks made abundant applications of elongated screw and worm shapes, the Chinese early developed tangent-plane helicoid structures. According to Dr. Peter Liu of Harvard University who published his research paper in Science, China invented the complex (compound) machine about 2550 years ago. That's about 600 years earlier than Hero of Alexandria was previously thought to have invented the machine. For your information, science itself was born in the Islamic civilization in the 11th century with the birth of EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD that the medieval European scholars eagerly copied thus bringing science to Europe. For your information, all the ancient civilizations were PRE-SCIENTIFIC. Without the Islamic invention of SCIENCE itself, there would have been NO MODERN SCIENCE in Europe.

    Bill Warner, PhD: Why We Are Afraid: 1400 Years of Fear – Czech Sub-titles

    Did Islam Destroy Classical Civilizations?
    John J. O’Neill

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180829054753/https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr

    [MORE]

    Decline of Classical Civilization
    “One of the most enduring problems of history is the decline of Classical Civilization.
    How is it, scholars have long asked, that the civilization of Greece and Rome, which
    had endured over a thousand years, gave way to the world of the Medieval, an age
    which saw, for a while, the decline and apparent disappearance of the rationalist spirit
    of Greece and Rome?
    In academic and journalistic literature and in the popular imagination, there is no
    mystery at all. After the Barbarian Invasions of the 5th century, we are told, the
    peoples of Western Europe reverted to living in thatched, wattle-and-daub huts. Cities
    were destroyed and abandoned, the art of writing virtually lost, and the mass of the
    population kept in a state of ignorance by an obscurantist and fanatical Church, which
    effectively completed the destructive work of the Barbarians. Into this darkened
    stage, the Arabs arrived in the 7th and 8th centuries like a ray of light. Tolerant and
    learned, they brought knowledge of the science of antiquity back into Europe and,
    under their influence, Westerners began the long journey back to civilization.
    That, in a nutshell, is the story told in an enormous number of scholarly treatises and
    academic textbooks. It is a story implicitly accepted by a large majority of
    professional historians, both in Europe and North America; and yet it is a version of
    the past that is completely and utterly false. Indeed, it would be difficult to imagine a
    narrative further removed from what actually happened.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @tamo
    I watched the video for a few minutes and stopped watching it because he sounds like a blooming idiot.
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  217. Miro23 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I wonder what percentage of the people who subscribe to all the Chinese lack creativity and China’s system cannot be innovative talk is actually in serious STEM.
     
    I'm fairly well engaged and its probably true. The specific mechanism likely has to do with stronger inhibitory systems which seem to also compromise creativity. Understanding the brain is necessary in order to modify its behavior, if desired but its also an useful lesson that nature works in boom/bust methods rather than any specific angle of balance.

    Understanding the brain is necessary in order to modify its behavior, if desired but it’s also an useful lesson that nature works in boom/bust methods rather than any specific angle of balance.

    Agree with that, and the classic over-ripe fruit is Empire.

    When societies reach the” Imperial stage” they invariably ascribe their dominance (even while falling apart) to ethnic/biological/racial superiority. It happens every time . Who has ever heard of a humble Imperialist?

    It was finally true with regard to the Roman Citizen, The Englishman, the Germanic Superman, post war Americans (Shining “City on a Hill”) and the current racial doctrines of 21st century Jewish Imperialism. The Chinese will be no different, and will no doubt ascribe their Imperial power to the ethnic superiority of the Chinese – giving them a convenient and obvious right to subjugate lesser races. They will have no problems with it, and are already giving it a trial run in South East Asia.

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  218. Objectively speaking, in STEM creativity, Chinese are not bad. Of course not spectacular, but they’ve definitely produced some real geniuses. In the theoretical sciences people like Shiing-shen Chern in math and Chen-Ning Yang in theoretical physics. Plenty of Chinese as professors in top STEM departments in the US. Also several prominent Chinese technologist entrepreneurs in the semiconductor/chip field.

    Japanese have surely done better, as one can see from their many recent Nobel Prizes, but they also started much earlier.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    There's something off about the education system, as they've talked about even in China. The greatest Chinese scientist in recent memory is probably Qian Xuesen, who was directly involved with the nuclear program, the rocketry programs, hydropower and arguably sketched out the thoughts being social credit. His engineering cybernetics class is still taught at US and German universities to this day. Considering the importance of the nuclear program, the AS/AD defense systems and hydropower is to China today, his contribution to Chinese technology cannot be overestimated.

    Yet, he wasn't a product of the education system in China. He was a graduate of MIT and worked at CalTech. Had the US not flipped out and deported him to China because they couldn't tell the difference between a Nationalist and a Communist(and thought that a logbook was secret spy code), he probably would be writing theoretical mathematics and its applications to engineering for the rest of his life.

    So what's wrong with Beida and Tsinghua grads? I doubt that they, fundamentally, lack his capabilities. But there's something going on that makes them primarily engage in less theoretical, and doesn't allow them to truly grow. And perhaps its of the entire "credit stealing" which I feel is going on: Ma Weiming almost certainly is not solely responsible for the successful railgun though he probably had something to do with the development of the transmission system. However, I'm pretty sure he's taken credit for his entire team.

    That can't be heartening if you're one of those people.
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  219. @tamo
    There is big difference. At the end, instead of dominated by " bamarians" the Han Chinese dominated over Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans, Uyghurs.

    Manchurian were the Normans to Hans Anglo-Celts crossed with the Vandals that sacked Rome.

    They became the ruling elite of China and forced Fuji Chinese to flee all the way South in the near-tropics even though Manchurian were from Siberia.

    So that is sort of backwards. The Manchurian, a vaguely Eurasian Siberian tribe from Russia, took over China.

    Uighur also successfully invaded China from Turkey.

    So many people got over the wall.

    Han cornered the seaboard and Eastern interior but the Manchurian really squashed them and the Turks to this day semi-own Uighur Western China.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The wall was fairly successful; the number of failed invasions and raids is innumerable and the Ming lasted three hundred years. They ultimately were undone by a massive internal rebellion partly spurred by the Little Ice Age, and the Manchu could not have succeeded without significant help from Chinese generals(many who were disaffected by the rebellions). Ultimately, the success of the Manchu was political rather than military - they practiced a policy of rapid sinicization, kept Chinese officials and institutions intact(such as the Imperial Exams and the scholar-officials), claimed the Mandate of Heaven(a Chinese concept), and married Manchu princesses to Chinese generals.

    They were quite aware of what had happened to the Mongols, so they attempted to avoid becoming completely absorbed while sacrificing as much as possible to maintain steady running and to encourage the Chinese to cooperate. Ultimately they failed as they lacked even a native written language, nomadic culture can't translate well to urban life and Manchu is now a dying language that China spends millions to try to maintain.

    No idea what you're talking about Uighurs. Uighurs were settled in China after the Dzungars were destroyed; the Uighurs were allies of the Chinese against the Dzungars and thus given lands to settle, and several cities were built for them. The name is Chinese: Xinjiang, for "New Territory."

    The closest to possible uighur involvement goes back to the Xiongnu Confederacy(which was a collection of nomadic tribes, some which may have be proto-uighur), which defeated the Han Dynasty in a war. This was reversed in eighty years, the Xiongu fell apart after defeats by the Han.
    , @tamo
    Daniel Chieh's reply is excellent.
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  220. @Anonymous
    As the member of previous genius class in the China best university in 90s, I found that nearly all of my classmates were busy in making money rather than doing pure research & academic jobs, no matter how smart they were proved in IMO, IPhO, etc.

    The key reason I guess: food & shelter were highly prioritized (reflected as money) in the mind after over 100 years of deep poverty and hunger.

    Now the status has been changed, but the new generation still needs more time for mature scientific culture and ecosystem, which costed 50~100 years in the history of west countries.

    i.e, I don't think that the current Nature Index is good indicator for your viewpoint.

    还有科大少年班校友在这上面啊?真没想到这里会吸引那么多中国人。这说起,您现在在做啥啊?我感觉中国科技大学校友在美国留在学术界拿到终身教职的还真不少。

    Read More
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  221. @Anonymous
    It sounds like you watched Idiocracy one too many times.

    Regarding the gap between China and the other East Asian societies, I don't think this is a permanent gap.

    It is hard for Chinese scientists to crank out 1st world scientific research while so many of their people are still working long days in rice paddies.

    As their economy improves I expect to see China normalize with the other East Asian countries.

    Correct. And with said societies having 2-3x less per capita elite science output than the US, convergence would mean that China would be comparable to – not dominant over – the US.

    Read More
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  222. @Anonymous
    As the member of previous genius class in the China best university in 90s, I found that nearly all of my classmates were busy in making money rather than doing pure research & academic jobs, no matter how smart they were proved in IMO, IPhO, etc.

    The key reason I guess: food & shelter were highly prioritized (reflected as money) in the mind after over 100 years of deep poverty and hunger.

    Now the status has been changed, but the new generation still needs more time for mature scientific culture and ecosystem, which costed 50~100 years in the history of west countries.

    i.e, I don't think that the current Nature Index is good indicator for your viewpoint.

    UR commenter Daniel Chieh recently told us about an acquaintance of his who wanted to do AI research at a leading Beijing university, but his family pressured him into becoming a (higher-paid) office drone. With China’s traditions of filial piety, whose overweening nature was remarked upon by Westerners even in the 19th century, this is going to be a hard pattern to break.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ChineseMom
    I read the story of Daniel Chieh‘s friend, I didn’t think it was the whole story at the time.

    After 27 years of Mao’s ruling with his relentless efforts to destroy outdated traditional culture and to establish new culture, and another 40 years of opening doors to the West, traditions like filial piety don’t have a strong hold on Chinese people any more. Old culture and traditions are relatively easy to get rid of, the new good ones are hard to form. I think this’s part of the reason stopped Japan and Korea from producing more scientific output and will be the bottle neck for China. Comparing what I know about Korean and Japanese, I think we Chinese are less bonded by traditions and more open to the west, China should be a lot more creative once China industrialized.
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  223. @attilathehen
    You're a cuck.

    The Hitler card is gone. It's the Caucasian RCC/Zioevangizer male who is the cause of our problems.

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don't belong.

    Guest worker in Germany can cover Spaniards, Portuguese and Turks. The Turks will have to go.

    A lot of diversity can be reversed.

    Of course, you will not help. You're too busy worrying about the shithole Vietnam.

    I get a nice paycheck to worry about that shithole and the other shithole in that region. That’s how I feed the family (and Merkel’s adopted sons for now).

    If Hitler had beeen smart he would have just be content with Sudetenland & Austria and deported them Juice to British Palestine. Cold War would have been much more interesting with Germany XL.

    People like me are content with deporting all illegal migrants, abolishing the asylum-laws and strong safe borders. Furthermore expanding the prison-terms to jail hundred-thousands of Paper-Europeans, who are Jihadist. There is no need to go full-gas-chamber on the issue.

    Here is a little info for you:

    1. AfD is already polling at road-block-Level in E-Germany with aprox. 20 -25%. The three state-elections next year will force Merkel to handover the leadership of the CDU. The next chancellor in 2021 will have to be much closer to the Orban-Salvini line or else the AfD might control the government in 2025.

    2. Eastern-German men make up 70% of soldiers in the Bundeswehr. Currently the officer-corps is still West-German, but by 2025 the officer-corps will nearly 80% East-German. Merkel her cronies know about the potential for a coup d’etat, that’s why they have been starving the Bundeswehr of funds – but Trump put an end to this.

    3. The Western European governments all know that during the last French presidential elections, the overwhelming majority of French police-officers and active soldiers have voted for Le Pen. This applies to the Swedish Forces/police and the Swedish Democrats as well.

    4. Day of Reckoning starts next week with the Swedish elections.

    In darker corners of the web, I would call you a shill/JIDF/Sorosbitch/Shareblue/glowinthedark/Lügenpresse-negro. But here I will call you a lazy provocateur.

    Long-term Unz.com-Readers like me recognize the new kind of commenters here, who spend alot of time insulting other commenters.

    @ Ron Unz: I hope you keep an eye on the IP-adresses and the new influx of retards into this site.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miro23

    2. Eastern-German men make up 70% of soldiers in the Bundeswehr. Currently the officer-corps is still West-German, but by 2025 the officer-corps will nearly 80% East-German. Merkel her cronies know about the potential for a coup d’etat, that’s why they have been starving the Bundeswehr of funds – but Trump put an end to this.

    3. The Western European governments all know that during the last French presidential elections, the overwhelming majority of French police-officers and active soldiers have voted for Le Pen. This applies to the Swedish Forces/police and the Swedish Democrats as well.
     

    Just suppose that there was a coup. The people who're supposed to regain order, would probably sympathize with the coup, or may be actively involved - and don't expect any EU country to send their reluctant troops across any frontiers.

    And talking about Germany, France and Sweden, there are similarities in the UK and the US. If for example, the US should go this route, the first piece of business would be to do everyone a favor and arrest and question everyone remotely connected to 9/11 (inc. administration, CIA, FBI, media, port authority, airlines, building owners, maintenance, security etc.) and get the full story behind the story.

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  224. Seraphim says:
    @attilathehen
    The Chinese are notorious cheaters.

    Who would want to live in Vietnam besides the Vietnamese?

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians.

    @Who would want to live in Vietnam besides the Vietnamese?

    The French loved it very much. So much so that they did not want to leave it.

    Read More
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  225. Seraphim says:
    @FKA Max
    The Renaissance Myth

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html Archived link: http://archive.is/iZmxu

    Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion [...]
     
    Europe has been under threat of Muslim invasion for 1300 years, which, incidentally, is also what caused and contributed to the "Dark Ages"...

    Did Islam cause the Dark Ages?

    Where the so-called Dark Ages actually “dark”? Not at first. The barbarian invaders admired Roman civilization. When Alaric the Goth (Visigoth) sacked Rome in 410, the capital of the western empire had already been moved to Ravenna. The Goths had originally been supporters of Rome and served in its military, but after the Huns forced them to move, they faced discrimination from the Romans and their support turned to resentment.
    [...]
    Essentially, the entire Dark Ages consisted of relentless attacks by Muslims. They came on slaving raids, sometimes enslaving entire towns. They committed mass murder, killing hundreds of thousands to millions. Thousands of churches were destroyed. Education declined because the papyrus supply was cut off after Egypt was captured by Umar, the second caliph, in 640. Thereafter, Europeans had to reuse old texts and parchment became a luxury. Without a supply of paper for learning, poor Europeans grew increasingly illiterate. While Europe was under constant bombardment, so was North Africa, India and even China.
    [...]
    The only reasonable conclusion is that Islam indeed caused what was known as the Dark Ages.
     
    - https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Destruction of Classical Civilization

    A historical account of 1300 years of jihad against western civilization and the spread of Islam.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuxqXjhl13Y

    Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc

    It is time to see the light through the ‘Dark Ages’, but you have to shed the politically correct blinkers that Islam brought the ‘Renaissance’ to a Europe stultified by the Church bigotry. And not be afraid that you will be called an ‘Islamophobe’. Actually the light was saved in Europe against the true spread of the Dark Age of Islam.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Not a big fan of the Roman Catholic Church, but their preservation of Roman eugenic practices indeed, in my opinion, saved civilization:

    Actually, utu, this is one of the few areas where this “kook” gives the Vatican/Rome high marks and praise. The Vatican/Rome is mainly responsible for the lower frequency/prevalence of low-activity MAOA in Europeans, South Americans, etc., in my opinion. [...] But otherwise Catholicism is much more eugenic and peaceful than Islam, since it forbids polygamy and cousin marriage.

    – http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2058848
     

    - https://www.unz.com/freed/fun-with-iq-deep-thought/#comment-2097090


    anyway, there is a direct link between ancient rome’s and medieval/modern northern europe’s cousin marriage avoidance. that link is quite obviously the catholic church which adopted all sorts of roman institutional structures and practices; but more specifically i’m referring to several of the church fathers, the earliest of whom lived in the roman empire itself and who, no doubt, were very aware of the roman avoidance of cousin marriage and very likely, having been raised “in rome,” had even internalized the idea as a natural and good one.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2058848

    This gave Europe and Europeans, in my opinion, an eugenic edge over the rest of the world:

    When Were Marriages Between Cousins Banned in China?

    https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2017/09/when-were-marriages-between-cousins-banned-in-china/

    In my previous blog post, How Degrees of Kinship Are Calculated Under Chinese Law?, it was mentioned that cousin marriage is banned by the People’s Republic of China (PRC) Marriage Law. In fact, the ban has not been there for very long: it officially appeared in the Law when it was revised in 1980.

    How Degrees of Kinship Are Calculated Under Chinese Law

    https://blogs.loc.gov/law/files/2017/08/Chart-Degrees-of-Kinship-Under-the-PRC-Marriage-Law-300x263.jpg

    Therefore, under the PRC Marriage Law, siblings are considered second-degree relatives, because there are two degrees between each of them and the parent. First cousins are third-degree relatives, because there are three degrees between each of them and the common ancestor, the grandparent.

    Note that the degrees of kinship under Chinese law do not necessarily reflect the distance of a blood relation. Although the distance of blood relation between an individual and his or her first cousin is further than that with his or her uncle or aunt, the uncle or aunt is also third degree relative under the PRC Marriage Law

    Source: https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2017/08/how-degrees-of-kinship-are-calculated-under-chinese-law/
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  226. @attilathehen
    Why are you living in Asia with APP? You couldn't find a Yankee woman with whom you could share your heritage? You say German and Italian Americans are not white? You sound just like Derbyshire.

    I say German-Americans and Italian-Americans are not white? I say they are not crackers.

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  227. @Truth

    Unlike American ghetto dwellers, even the very poor over there are responsible (that’s a topic for another discussion).
     
    Terminating a life because you didn't get exactly what you want is, "responsible?"

    Nah, not the abortion, Truth. They are responsible in mentality. That means they don’t want to have a kid and plan on letting other people pay to raise them, as is done here. Abortion is done just as much in the black ghetto, but then you still end up with 2 or 3 (sometimes more) that other people, trying to raise their own kids responsibly, have to pay for.

    The responsible ones in China who still insisted on having boys would just have raised them off-the-grid, which is pretty much not a choice in parts of China even now. I mean, though, that they could not be registered in school and all that. I know people who had 7 kids in order to have a boy (he was #7, of course), but they didn’t expect fellow Chinamen to pay for those. The only ones who helped, besides family, were Americans! Yes, Americans – even in the 1970′s, we had been sending them corn. Sure it was feed corn, but you don’t look a gift capitalist roader in the mouth, right?

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  228. @attilathehen
    As I have commented before, most commentators on this website and several others can be grouped into 3 types: RCCers who accept black/Asian priests-popes, insane anti-Semites and Western males involved with Asian females.

    Many commentators scribble about the JQ: Jewish Question. When I found out that many commentators are involved with Asian females this cleared up many of the contradictions and hypocrisy posted by these commentators. John Derbyshire is exhibit A.

    My language is mild compared to what I have seen from other commentators. I had to give the Asian female problem a name: Asian Poontang Problem (APP). This is why I ask the Western commentators if they are involved with Asian women. If they are, they are worthless to the West.

    The German Reader is not involved with Asian female, but I have a feeling he is planning on this in the future. Hence his degenerate interest in Vietnam. He will not fight for his true country - Germany.

    Is there APP in your life?

    I do like your terminology, Attila. I would point out to you that the Middle Kingdom, China, I mean, has had this 5,000 year long continuous culture. That’s MMMMM or half a wan, if you’re Roman or Chinese, irrespectfully. You have to keep in mind that some guys like women who have not (YET) picked up the highly-caustic Western feminism. Some like the old culture ingrained in these Oriental women like an ancient whisper from deep in the Poontang Dynasty.

    And, yes, of course I’ve heard Ted Nugent’s Wang, Dang, Sweet Poontang, but I’m still partial to Cat Scratch Fever. Mr. Nugent has my respect for his strong support of US Constitution – Amendment II.

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  229. Miro23 says:
    @Another German Reader
    I get a nice paycheck to worry about that shithole and the other shithole in that region. That's how I feed the family (and Merkel's adopted sons for now).

    If Hitler had beeen smart he would have just be content with Sudetenland & Austria and deported them Juice to British Palestine. Cold War would have been much more interesting with Germany XL.

    People like me are content with deporting all illegal migrants, abolishing the asylum-laws and strong safe borders. Furthermore expanding the prison-terms to jail hundred-thousands of Paper-Europeans, who are Jihadist. There is no need to go full-gas-chamber on the issue.

    Here is a little info for you:

    1. AfD is already polling at road-block-Level in E-Germany with aprox. 20 -25%. The three state-elections next year will force Merkel to handover the leadership of the CDU. The next chancellor in 2021 will have to be much closer to the Orban-Salvini line or else the AfD might control the government in 2025.

    2. Eastern-German men make up 70% of soldiers in the Bundeswehr. Currently the officer-corps is still West-German, but by 2025 the officer-corps will nearly 80% East-German. Merkel her cronies know about the potential for a coup d'etat, that's why they have been starving the Bundeswehr of funds - but Trump put an end to this.

    3. The Western European governments all know that during the last French presidential elections, the overwhelming majority of French police-officers and active soldiers have voted for Le Pen. This applies to the Swedish Forces/police and the Swedish Democrats as well.

    4. Day of Reckoning starts next week with the Swedish elections.

    In darker corners of the web, I would call you a shill/JIDF/Sorosbitch/Shareblue/glowinthedark/Lügenpresse-negro. But here I will call you a lazy provocateur.

    Long-term Unz.com-Readers like me recognize the new kind of commenters here, who spend alot of time insulting other commenters.

    @ Ron Unz: I hope you keep an eye on the IP-adresses and the new influx of retards into this site.

    2. Eastern-German men make up 70% of soldiers in the Bundeswehr. Currently the officer-corps is still West-German, but by 2025 the officer-corps will nearly 80% East-German. Merkel her cronies know about the potential for a coup d’etat, that’s why they have been starving the Bundeswehr of funds – but Trump put an end to this.

    3. The Western European governments all know that during the last French presidential elections, the overwhelming majority of French police-officers and active soldiers have voted for Le Pen. This applies to the Swedish Forces/police and the Swedish Democrats as well.

    Just suppose that there was a coup. The people who’re supposed to regain order, would probably sympathize with the coup, or may be actively involved – and don’t expect any EU country to send their reluctant troops across any frontiers.

    And talking about Germany, France and Sweden, there are similarities in the UK and the US. If for example, the US should go this route, the first piece of business would be to do everyone a favor and arrest and question everyone remotely connected to 9/11 (inc. administration, CIA, FBI, media, port authority, airlines, building owners, maintenance, security etc.) and get the full story behind the story.

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  230. @Amen

    The great strength of China was always the size of the population.
     
    It's not a strength, it's a liability. The average Chinese will always be much poorer than the average westerner due to its 1.4 billion mouths to feed.

    The number of people is the number of mouths to feed, but at the same time the number of goods’ producers. Besides, China produces real goods (just visit any store in the US: virtually everything, from nails and socks to computers and trendy clothes, is made in China), in contrast to the US, where ~60% of GDP is hot air (politically correct term is “financial services”; there are other tricks: at least 6% is “rent” home owners would have paid themselves if they were crazy enough to rent their homes from themselves).

    By your logic Malta should be the richest country in Europe, which is patently not true.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    That was one of your better comments, Russian-in-Tennessee, sounding almost like something off of Zerohedge, or an amalgamation of a few years of reading it. You are right - much of GDP is hot air, and it's hard to sort out what's not. "Services" of all kinds means lots of things. A bitter divorce (or on a bigger scale, a corporate buy-out) can result in 1000's or 10's of thousands of high-paid lawyer hours. That was lots of back-and-forth of letter-writing, threatening phone calls, and meetings. Did anything get made? Was wealth created? Nope. Those millions are part of the GDP, helping it "kick ass"! (Making GDP not a good indicator of quality of life.)

    See Peak Stupidity's take on the huge Chinese DIY infrastructure (that America used to have) in China vs. America and the local hardware store, with a self-rebuttal.

    From the rebuttal there is this:

    ... the Chinese culture DOES NOT RESPECT hand labor. A better way of saying that might be that the Chinese ladies (the hot ones, where it matters) value a money-grubbing social-climbing, I'll-scratch-your-back type man over a simple honest hardworking hands-on guy. Because of that, Chinese men will aspire to be the former over the latter, which is a damn shame.
     
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  231. @Jeff Stryker
    Manchurian were the Normans to Hans Anglo-Celts crossed with the Vandals that sacked Rome.

    They became the ruling elite of China and forced Fuji Chinese to flee all the way South in the near-tropics even though Manchurian were from Siberia.

    So that is sort of backwards. The Manchurian, a vaguely Eurasian Siberian tribe from Russia, took over China.

    Uighur also successfully invaded China from Turkey.

    So many people got over the wall.

    Han cornered the seaboard and Eastern interior but the Manchurian really squashed them and the Turks to this day semi-own Uighur Western China.

    The wall was fairly successful; the number of failed invasions and raids is innumerable and the Ming lasted three hundred years. They ultimately were undone by a massive internal rebellion partly spurred by the Little Ice Age, and the Manchu could not have succeeded without significant help from Chinese generals(many who were disaffected by the rebellions). Ultimately, the success of the Manchu was political rather than military – they practiced a policy of rapid sinicization, kept Chinese officials and institutions intact(such as the Imperial Exams and the scholar-officials), claimed the Mandate of Heaven(a Chinese concept), and married Manchu princesses to Chinese generals.

    They were quite aware of what had happened to the Mongols, so they attempted to avoid becoming completely absorbed while sacrificing as much as possible to maintain steady running and to encourage the Chinese to cooperate. Ultimately they failed as they lacked even a native written language, nomadic culture can’t translate well to urban life and Manchu is now a dying language that China spends millions to try to maintain.

    No idea what you’re talking about Uighurs. Uighurs were settled in China after the Dzungars were destroyed; the Uighurs were allies of the Chinese against the Dzungars and thus given lands to settle, and several cities were built for them. The name is Chinese: Xinjiang, for “New Territory.”

    The closest to possible uighur involvement goes back to the Xiongnu Confederacy(which was a collection of nomadic tribes, some which may have be proto-uighur), which defeated the Han Dynasty in a war. This was reversed in eighty years, the Xiongu fell apart after defeats by the Han.

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    • Replies: @bucky
    Mongol invasion, and Manchu invasion, likely reduced the prestige of the celestials.

    The fact is that the Han Chinese were dominated by nomadic horsemen. This meant that over time, the more brave, you could say the more assertive, more intelligent, were killed off. That is what the whole pigtail thing is all about. It is a sign of submission to the Manchu. The Manchu slaughtered entire cities which refused to adopt this humiliating style.

    The meek survived. This might be the root of Chinese stagnation which is how the European powers were so easily able to dominate it.

    Following the Mongol invasion, the Japanese viewed the Chinese as lost and tarnished. They greatly admired the Tang dynasty and they modeled their society after it. After the Mongols defeated the Chinese, the Japanese no more admired the Chinese.

    I mean, invasion and domination is just the way of the world. The Norman invasion of Britain resulted in generations of deprivation for the defeated. The lower class accent in England is derived from the defeated peoples of the Norman invasion.

    Also the imperial examination was a means to dominate the Han Chinese. The ruling Manchus were not subject to this system.

    You can easily see the parallels to the current day, where Chinese are suing Harvard over admissions discrimination. This is their deeply embedded cultural trait.
    , @ThatDamnGood
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_alphabet

    There is a picture of manchurian writing from the Forbidden city here.
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  232. @gmachine1729
    Objectively speaking, in STEM creativity, Chinese are not bad. Of course not spectacular, but they've definitely produced some real geniuses. In the theoretical sciences people like Shiing-shen Chern in math and Chen-Ning Yang in theoretical physics. Plenty of Chinese as professors in top STEM departments in the US. Also several prominent Chinese technologist entrepreneurs in the semiconductor/chip field.

    Japanese have surely done better, as one can see from their many recent Nobel Prizes, but they also started much earlier.

    There’s something off about the education system, as they’ve talked about even in China. The greatest Chinese scientist in recent memory is probably Qian Xuesen, who was directly involved with the nuclear program, the rocketry programs, hydropower and arguably sketched out the thoughts being social credit. His engineering cybernetics class is still taught at US and German universities to this day. Considering the importance of the nuclear program, the AS/AD defense systems and hydropower is to China today, his contribution to Chinese technology cannot be overestimated.

    Yet, he wasn’t a product of the education system in China. He was a graduate of MIT and worked at CalTech. Had the US not flipped out and deported him to China because they couldn’t tell the difference between a Nationalist and a Communist(and thought that a logbook was secret spy code), he probably would be writing theoretical mathematics and its applications to engineering for the rest of his life.

    So what’s wrong with Beida and Tsinghua grads? I doubt that they, fundamentally, lack his capabilities. But there’s something going on that makes them primarily engage in less theoretical, and doesn’t allow them to truly grow. And perhaps its of the entire “credit stealing” which I feel is going on: Ma Weiming almost certainly is not solely responsible for the successful railgun though he probably had something to do with the development of the transmission system. However, I’m pretty sure he’s taken credit for his entire team.

    That can’t be heartening if you’re one of those people.

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    • Replies: @ChineseMom
    In just finished 2018 international congress of mathematicians, there are 8 invited speakers out of 180 are Beijing university graduates.
    , @gmachine1729
    Daniel Chieh, I'm curious about your background, like where you were raised and educated. You certainly don't sound like a mainland Chinese, I'll say that.
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  233. @Nawyr
    No they didn't. Manchu remained in power and the people in China today in power have Manchu genetics. Han Chinese culture had been Manchurianized -- that's why all those Han Chinese coming to the USA back in the day were wearing shaved heads and long braids.

    Nonsense. It would have been the equivalent of Tecumseh’s confederacy had successfully conquered the newly formed US with help from US defectors. They would rapidly find themselves incapable of administrating urban areas, and that nomadic norms wouldn’t work. They would also not be able to stop their children from reading English books, watching English plays, or otherwise engaging in American culture.

    The most they could do would be to attempt to cargo cult some version of their old culture, which is basically what the Manchus did, but it was a stalling tactic. China now pays millions to try to preserve Manchu language and culture from being lost in total.

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  234. @AnonFromTN
    The great strength of China was always the size of the population. It absorbed Manchu, and Mongols before them, due to sheer numbers. China is doing the same thing with Uighurs in Xinjiang, the government simply encourages Han people to move there. BTW, Chinese pronounce Uighur as Wiger, which means a totally different thing in the US.

    In the Soviet Union during tensions with China there was a joke about Sino-Soviet war. Day one. The Army command reports to the party bosses: today we surrendered 100 million. Day two: today we surrendered 200 million. Day three: today we surrendered 300 million. Let them figure out who is who’s prisoner.

    In all this assimilation thing, I always wondered what the results are genetically. For example, Han people do not have sweat glands in their armpits, whereas others do. Do assimilated and Sinicized Mongols, Manchu, and Uighurs still have sweat glands?

    I have sweat glands but I’m part Mongol.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Thought so: political and cultural assimilation cannot change genetics, and therefore cannot change the phenotype. I mentioned those sweat glands because their absence is the only thing I know to be specific for the Han people. Very convenient for them, as they don’t need deodorant, unlike others.

    In fact, I guess I am more positive about Chinese than most non-Chinese commenters here. Two of my best post-docs, as well as my second-best grad student, were Chinese. In fact, two of these three spoke better English than most Chinese or French even after many years in the US, which in my book means high intelligence (arguably, the language is the most challenging thing we ever learn). The third one was from the South of China, and (according to my other Chinese post-doc) had equally heavy accent in Mandarin and English. One former post-doc is an Assistant Professor now in another University, the other is in industry. Former grad student (who will have 2-3 more papers/reviews/chapters from my lab) is now a post-doc in a good lab with a fair chance of getting an independent position later. She is interested in academia, which I approve of: I believe that the best place for creative, intelligent, and independent-minded scientists is academia, even though it does not pay as much as industry and does not have the same job security as government. I find the posts about lack of creativity among Chinese ridiculous: my personal experience says otherwise.

    Having come from the USSR, I hate hierarchy, and you get army-style hierarchy in industry and government: no matter who you are, there is a general above you. Not so in academia. If you are funded, even your department chair or dean is not your boss, just a colleague. However, all Chinese I ever met were in the US. A boon for the US, a loss for China.
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  235. DC says:

    Karl Marx and the accumulation of capital has absolutely nothing to do with the industrial revolution.
    I’m a Brit that lives close to where the IR took off.
    We live on an island that gets cold at night and cold in the winter, it rains a lot and we also keep having babies.
    After we cut down all the trees there was nothing to burn but by happy circumstance our little island also happened to have one of the largest coal deposits on the planet arranged in seams that run deep underground and under the North Sea.
    So we burned all the coal we could get at but then we had a problem that water would constantly flood the mines so if we didn’t find ways of removing the water to get at the coal we would all freeze to death in winter.
    Once we had invented a really inefficient pump we could get at the rest of the coal and not die. At first we used canals to move stuff around but after we had improved the pumps, invented engines and put them on rails we realised it was much easier to build trains and railways instead of canals. If you visit Britain today you will still find thousands of miles of canals, all built by white, British working class men while their children were down the mine digging for coal.
    The idea that you can invent your way out of problems on a large scale instead of slaughtering each other is far more an explanation of the IR than anything Marx wrote.

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  236. tamo says:
    @Jeff Stryker
    Manchurian were the Normans to Hans Anglo-Celts crossed with the Vandals that sacked Rome.

    They became the ruling elite of China and forced Fuji Chinese to flee all the way South in the near-tropics even though Manchurian were from Siberia.

    So that is sort of backwards. The Manchurian, a vaguely Eurasian Siberian tribe from Russia, took over China.

    Uighur also successfully invaded China from Turkey.

    So many people got over the wall.

    Han cornered the seaboard and Eastern interior but the Manchurian really squashed them and the Turks to this day semi-own Uighur Western China.

    Daniel Chieh’s reply is excellent.

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    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    I don't dispute that.
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  237. @Daniel Chieh
    There's something off about the education system, as they've talked about even in China. The greatest Chinese scientist in recent memory is probably Qian Xuesen, who was directly involved with the nuclear program, the rocketry programs, hydropower and arguably sketched out the thoughts being social credit. His engineering cybernetics class is still taught at US and German universities to this day. Considering the importance of the nuclear program, the AS/AD defense systems and hydropower is to China today, his contribution to Chinese technology cannot be overestimated.

    Yet, he wasn't a product of the education system in China. He was a graduate of MIT and worked at CalTech. Had the US not flipped out and deported him to China because they couldn't tell the difference between a Nationalist and a Communist(and thought that a logbook was secret spy code), he probably would be writing theoretical mathematics and its applications to engineering for the rest of his life.

    So what's wrong with Beida and Tsinghua grads? I doubt that they, fundamentally, lack his capabilities. But there's something going on that makes them primarily engage in less theoretical, and doesn't allow them to truly grow. And perhaps its of the entire "credit stealing" which I feel is going on: Ma Weiming almost certainly is not solely responsible for the successful railgun though he probably had something to do with the development of the transmission system. However, I'm pretty sure he's taken credit for his entire team.

    That can't be heartening if you're one of those people.

    In just finished 2018 international congress of mathematicians, there are 8 invited speakers out of 180 are Beijing university graduates.

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  238. @Anatoly Karlin
    UR commenter Daniel Chieh recently told us about an acquaintance of his who wanted to do AI research at a leading Beijing university, but his family pressured him into becoming a (higher-paid) office drone. With China's traditions of filial piety, whose overweening nature was remarked upon by Westerners even in the 19th century, this is going to be a hard pattern to break.

    I read the story of Daniel Chieh‘s friend, I didn’t think it was the whole story at the time.

    After 27 years of Mao’s ruling with his relentless efforts to destroy outdated traditional culture and to establish new culture, and another 40 years of opening doors to the West, traditions like filial piety don’t have a strong hold on Chinese people any more. Old culture and traditions are relatively easy to get rid of, the new good ones are hard to form. I think this’s part of the reason stopped Japan and Korea from producing more scientific output and will be the bottle neck for China. Comparing what I know about Korean and Japanese, I think we Chinese are less bonded by traditions and more open to the west, China should be a lot more creative once China industrialized.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I don't think that its so easy to dismiss the importance of money to the Chinese. He's a very important member of one of the leading credit card systems, which is great for him. But he's not researching anything and as he noted, its kind of sad. But he wouldn't be able to make very much if he continued to do his little animal brain to machine experiments and that's life.

    As AnonFromTN here can confirm, academics don't exactly break the bank. The work is its own fulfillment. But that's hard to explain to your parents, or your wife why you can't give your kids a better life.

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  239. @ChineseMom
    I read the story of Daniel Chieh‘s friend, I didn’t think it was the whole story at the time.

    After 27 years of Mao’s ruling with his relentless efforts to destroy outdated traditional culture and to establish new culture, and another 40 years of opening doors to the West, traditions like filial piety don’t have a strong hold on Chinese people any more. Old culture and traditions are relatively easy to get rid of, the new good ones are hard to form. I think this’s part of the reason stopped Japan and Korea from producing more scientific output and will be the bottle neck for China. Comparing what I know about Korean and Japanese, I think we Chinese are less bonded by traditions and more open to the west, China should be a lot more creative once China industrialized.

    I don’t think that its so easy to dismiss the importance of money to the Chinese. He’s a very important member of one of the leading credit card systems, which is great for him. But he’s not researching anything and as he noted, its kind of sad. But he wouldn’t be able to make very much if he continued to do his little animal brain to machine experiments and that’s life.

    As AnonFromTN here can confirm, academics don’t exactly break the bank. The work is its own fulfillment. But that’s hard to explain to your parents, or your wife why you can’t give your kids a better life.

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    • Replies: @ChineseMom
    Money definitely a factor in your friend’s case. But I suspect his old research job wouldn’t take him any where. He probably wasn’t a research faculty at a university or a research institution.
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  240. @tamo
    Daniel Chieh's reply is excellent.

    I don’t dispute that.

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  241. @tamo
    For your information, before the Industrial Revolution, Europe copied a lot of Chinese technologies without which the SPREAD of Renaissance, European gunpowder -based weapons revolution, the European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution would have been IMPOSSIB