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Prime Ministers of Hungary Viktor Orban
Prime Ministers of Hungary Viktor Orban

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CNN recently discovered a paradox. How was it possible, they asked, that in 1989, Viktor Orban, at the time a Western-acclaimed liberal opposition leader, was calling for Soviet troops to leave Hungary, and now that he is Prime Minister, he is cozying up to Vladimir Putin?

For the same reason, dummy.

Orban wanted his country to be independent then, and he wants it to be independent now.

In 1989, Hungary was a satellite of the Soviet Union. Whatever Hungarians wanted, they had to follow directives from Moscow and adhere to Soviet communist ideology.

Today, Hungary is ordered to follow directives from Brussels and adhere to the EU ideology, a k a “our common values”.

But what exactly are those “common values”?

Not so very, very long ago, “the West”, that is, both America and Europe, claimed devotion to “Christian values”. Those values were evoked in Western condemnation of the Soviet Union.

That is out. These days, indeed, one of the reasons why Viktor Orban is considered a threat to our European values is his reference to a Hungarian conception of “the Christian character of Europe, the role of nations and cultures”. The revival of Christianity in Hungary, as in Russia, is regarded in the West as deeply suspect.

So it’s understood, Christianity is no longer a “Western value”. What has taken its place? That should be obvious: today “our common values” essentially mean democracy and free elections.

Guess again. Orban was recently re-elected by a landslide. Leading EU liberal Guy Verhofstadt called this “an electoral mandate to roll back democracy in Hungary.”

Since elections can “roll back democracy”, they cannot be the essence of “our common values”. People can vote wrong; that is called “populism” and is a bad thing.

The real, functional common values of the European Union are spelled out in its treaties: the four freedoms. No, not freedom of speech, since many Member States have laws against “hate speech”, which can cover a lot of ground since its meaning is open to wide interpretation. No, the obligatory four freedoms of the EU are free movement of goods, services, persons and capital throughout the Union. Open borders. That is the essence of the European Union, the dogma of the Free Market.

The problem with the Open Border doctrine is that it doesn’t know where to stop. Or it doesn’t stop anywhere. When Angela Merkel announced that hundreds of thousands of refugees were welcome in Germany, the announcement was interpreted as an open invitation by immigrants of all sorts, who began to stream into Europe. This unilateral German decision automatically applied to the whole of the EU, with its lack of internal borders. Given German clout, Open Borders became the essential “European common value”, and welcoming immigrants the essence of human rights.

Very contrasting ideological and practical considerations contribute to the idealization of Open Borders. To name a few:

  • Economic liberals maintain that because Europe is aging, it needs young immigrant workers to pay for the pensions of retired workers.
  • Many Jewish activists feel threatened by national majorities and feel safer in a society made up of ethnic minorities.
  • More discreetly, certain entrepreneurs favor mass immigration because growing competition in the labor market brings down wages.
  • Many artistically inclined people consider ethnic diversity to be more creative and more fun.
  • Certain anarchist or Trotskyist sects believe that uprooted immigrants are the “agent” of the revolution that the Western proletariat failed to produce.
  • Many Europeans accept the idea that nation states are the cause of war, concluding that every way of destroying them is welcome.
  • International financial investors naturally want to remove all obstacles to their investments and thus promote Open Borders as The Future.
  • There are even a few powerful schemers who see “diversity” as the basis of divide and rule, by breaking solidarity into ethnic pieces.
  • There are good people who want to help all humanity in distress.

This combination of contrasting, even opposing motivations does not add up to a majority in every country. Notably not in Hungary.

It should be noted that Hungary is a small Central European country of less than ten million inhabitants, which never had a colonial empire and thus has no historic relationship with peoples in Africa and Asia as do Britain, France, the Netherlands, and Belgium. As one of the losers in World War I, Hungary lost a large amount of territory to its neighbors, notably to Romania. The rare and difficult Hungarian language would be seriously challenged by mass immigration. It is probably safe to say that the majority of people in Hungary tend to be attached to their national identity and feel it would be threatened by massive immigration from radically different cultures. It may not be nice of them, and like everyone they can change. But for now, that is how they vote.

In particular, they recently voted massively to re-elect Victor Orban, obviously endorsing his refusal of uncontrolled immigration. This is what has spurred scrutiny of Orban’s leadership for signs of incumbent dictatorship. The EU is taking steps to strip Hungary of its political rights as a result. On September 14, Victor Orban made his position clear in a speech to the (largely rubber stamp) European Parliament in Strasbourg:

“Let’s be frank. They want to condemn Hungary and the Hungarians who have decided that our country will not be an immigration country. With all due respect, but as firmly as possible, I reject the threats of the pro-immigration forces, their blackmail of Hungary and the Hungarians, all based on lies. I inform you respectfully that however you decide, Hungary will stop illegal immigration, and defend its borders, against you if necessary.”

This was greeted with outrage.

Former Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt, currently president of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe Group in the European Parliament and an ardent European federalist, responded furiously that “we cannot let far right populist governments drag democratic European states into the orbit of Vladimir Putin!”

In a tweet to his EP colleagues, Verhofstadt warned: “We are in an existential battle for the survival of the European project. … For Europe’s sake, we need to stop him!”

CNN approvingly ran an opinion piece from Verhofstadt describing Hungary as a “threat to international order”.

“In the coming weeks and months, the international community — and the United States in particular — must heed our warning and act: Hungary’s government is a threat to the rules-based international order,” he wrote.

“European governments and the US have a moral obligation to intervene”, Verhofstadt continued. “We cannot stand aside and let populist, far-right governments drag democratic European states into Vladimir Putin’s orbit and undermine the postwar international norms.”

Next come sanctions: “Political and financial costs must be attached to governments pursuing an authoritarian path and support provided to civil society organizations…”

Verhofstadt concluded: “This is not in the interests of the people of America or Europe. We need to stop him — now.”

Verhofstadt’s appeal to America to “stop” the Hungarian prime minister sounds like nothing so much as appeals to Brezhnev by hard-line communists to send the tanks into reformist Czechoslovakia in 1968.

However, this appeal for intervention was not addressed to President Trump, who is in the same doghouse as Orban among the Atlanticists, but rather to the deep state forces which the Belgian fanatic assumes are still in power in Washington.

At the start of his CNN article, Verhofstadt paid tribute to “the late, great, John McCain, who once described Orban as ‘a fascist in bed with Putin’…” That is the McCain who went around the world as head of the Republican branch of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) encouraging and financing dissident groups to rebel against their respective governments, in preparation for U.S. intervention. Oh Senator McCain, where are you now that we need you for a little regime change in Budapest?

Orban’s reputation in the West as dictator is unquestionably linked to his intense conflict with Hungarian-born financier George Soros, whose Open Society foundation finances all manner of initiatives to promote his dream of a borderless society, notably in Eastern Europe. Soros operations could be considered privatized U.S. foreign policy, along the same lines as McCain, and innocently “non-governmental”. One Soros initiative is the private Budapest-based Central European University whose rector is open society advocate Michael Ignatieff. Hungary recently imposed a 25% tax on money spent by nongovernmental organizations on programs that “directly or indirectly aim to promote immigration,” which affects the CEU. This is part of a recently adopted package of anti-immigration measures known as the “Stop Soros” bill.

Hungarian measures against Soros’ interference are of course denounced in the West as a grave violation of human rights, while in the United States, prosecutors search frantically for the slightest indication of Russian interference or Russian agents.

In another blow against the international rules-based order, the Hungarian prime minister’s office recently announced that the government will cease to fund university courses in gender studies, on the grounds that they “cannot be justified scientifically” and attract too few students to be worthwhile. Although privately funded and thus able to continue its own gender studies program, the CEU was “astonished” and called the measure “without any justification or antecedent.”

Like the Soviet Union, the European Union is not merely an undemocratic institutional framework promoting a specific economic system; it is also the vehicle of an ideology and a planetary project. Both are based on a dogma as to what is good for the world: communism for the first, “openness” for the second. Both in varying ways demand of people virtues they may not share: a forced equality, a forced generosity. All this can sound good, but such ideals become methods of manipulation. Forcing ideals on people eventually runs up against stubborn resistance.

There are differing reasons to be against immigration just as to be for it. The idea of democracy was to sort out and choose between ideals and practical interests by free discussion and in the end a show of hands: an informed vote. The liberal Authoritarian Center represented by Verhofstadt seeks to impose its values, aspirations, even its version of the facts on citizens who are denounced as “populists” if they disagree. Under communism, dissidents were called “enemies of the people”. For the liberal globalists, they are “populists” – that is, the people. If people are told constantly that the choice is between a left that advocates mass immigration and a right that rejects it, the swing to the right is unstoppable.

 
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  1. Orban’s reputation in the West as dictator is unquestionably linked to his intense conflict with Hungarian-born financier George Soros

    And not only Soros, of course:

    ‘I know that this battle is difficult for everyone. I understand if some of us are also afraid. This is understandable, because we must fight against an opponent which is different from us. Their faces are not visible, but are hidden from view; they do not fight directly, but by stealth; they are not honourable, but unprincipled; they are not national, but international; they do not believe in work, but speculate with money; they have no homeland, but feel that the whole world is theirs.’—Viktor Orbán

    • Replies: @awry
  2. Watch the great Hungarian foreign minister repel attacks by the BBCs arrogant open borders propagandist, rudely treating him like an ignorant child and calling him a racist for defending his nation.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Skeptikal
    , @geokat62
  3. Anonymous[224] • Disclaimer says:

    Economic liberals maintain that because Europe is aging, it needs young immigrant workers to pay for the pensions of retired workers.

    Not gonna happen. Their 80 IQ skills are uncompetitive and useless in Europe even before Automation erases those low-skilled positions in the coming decade or two. Meanwhile, (real) European youth unemployment rate is 20%. Young Europeans are not making babies because they don’t have a stable future. This can only get worse as the hostile invaders get preferential, Affirmative Action treatment, in schools and workplaces. None of this is accidental.

    Many Jewish activists feel threatened by national majorities and feel safer in a society made up of ethnic minorities.

    They were safe (and angry) before. Now they’re fucked (and angry). Everyone is starting to hate them now. Europeans and Muslims are embracing their own anger.

    More discreetly, certain entrepreneurs favor mass immigration because growing competition in the labor market brings down wages.

    True, until the average IQ drops and the country becomes an uncompetitive shit-hole and the purchasing power nosedives.

    Many artistically inclined people consider ethnic diversity to be more creative and more fun.

    Many artistically inclined people are useless morons. They should find a job or move to Somalia to catch that elusive “creative fun”.

    Certain anarchist or Trotskyist sects believe that uprooted immigrants are the “agent” of the revolution that the Western proletariat failed to produce.

    Naturally. Nothing says “worker paradise” like Africa and the ME.

    Many Europeans accept the idea that nation states are the cause of war, concluding that every way of destroying them is welcome.

    No nation – no vote, no sovereignty, unity, identity or culture. High-IQ nations also lose safety and prosperity (before they get converted into low-IQ paste). Besides, the existence of other nations offers real diversity and, more importantly, examples of what to strive for or avoid. In a global, NWO, windowless prison, the inmates will never see the sky. They won’t even know it exists.

    International financial investors naturally want to remove all obstacles to their investments and thus promote Open Borders as The Future.

    (((International financial investors))) must be put on trial.

    There are even a few powerful schemers who see “diversity” as the basis of divide and rule, by breaking solidarity into ethnic pieces.

    (((Powerful schemers))) must be put on trial.

    There are good people who want to help all humanity in distress.

    Charity begins at home.

    • Agree: Vojkan
    • Replies: @pyrrhus
    , @Jeff Stryker
    , @Vojkan
  4. awry says:
    @Johnny Rottenborough

    Orbán is very cozy to Netanyahu and the Chabad Orthodox Jewish sect, his government finances the renovation of synagogues etc. Of course this can be considered a tactical move to deflect accusations of anti-semitism.

  5. Viva Orban!
    May God bless you and Hungary and protect you from the infidels.

  6. There are, in my opinion, two reasons for letting the mass immigration happen:
    - the Brussels belief, expressed in a 2009 official document, not secret, that the EU needs 60 million immigrants.
    - a Merkel belief dat the Germans are bad, they caused two world wars and perpetrated the holocaust, so the German people must be changed through mass immigration.

    The Brussels belief seems to be based mainly on the increasing average age in the EU.
    It is incomprehensible to me, at the same time fear that robots slowly will do all simple jobs.

    The Merkel belief, on the other side of the Atlantic, where few understand German, and cannot or do not watch German tv, I wonder how many understand that the 20th century propaganda of the victors still is decisive in German daily life and politics.
    The danger of neonazi’s and fascism is everywhere.
    Nationalism, the equivalent of building gas chambers.

    The EU also is based on the 20th century fairy tales, only the EU prevented wars in Europe after WWII.
    The idea that Germans were victims in two world wars, and, until Hitler became power in 1933, also between the world wars, in unthinkable.
    The idea that Endlösung meant deportation to Madagaskar, even more unthinkable.

    That jews, as one Rothschild wrote to another around 1890, have and had but one enemy, themselves, the world unthinkable is too weak.
    Yet
    ‘From prejudice to destruction’, Jacob Katz, 1980, Cambridge MA
    explains it, things as ‘close economic cooperation, intermarriage, ostentious behaviour’.
    In this respect
    ‘Christianity and the Holocaust of the Hungarian Jewry’, Moshe Y Herclz, 1993 New York University press
    also is a very interesting book, after jews in the thirties had been banned from many intellectual professions not a single Hungarian newspaper could be published any more.

    Soros trying to force Muslim immigrants on deeply catholic Hungary, he was born in Hungary, experienced anti semitism, revenge ?

    • Replies: @Wally
  7. Your listing of categories of people in Europe that support “diversity” and welcome immigrants from underdeveloped and primitive societies, and/or holding medieval beliefs (i.e. mohammedans), is exhaustive it would seem to me.

    In 1975, the member states of what was then still called the EEC, signed a treaty at Strasbourg with the representatives of North African and Middle Eastern mohammedan states, guaranteeing special privileges for mohammedans wishing to settle in Europe.

    Now that the floodgates are fully opened, the barbarians are streaming into Europe, where they act like a kind of ununiformed SA (“Brown Battallions”), terrorizing the native populations. Orban is among the precious few intelligent and courageous politicians to stand up against this organized repetition of the collapse of Roman society in the fifth century, AD.

    See also: http://www.pravdareport.com/world/europe/23-10-2015/132403-refugees_europe-0/

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Altai
  8. “European governments and the US have a moral obligation to intervene….”

    Good thing for Hungary that the few forces the other EU Powers can muster are being frittered away in Southwest Asia and North Africa.

    “Verhofstadt’s appeal to America to “stop” the Hungarian prime minister sounds like nothing so much as appeals to Brezhnev by hard-line communists to send the tanks into reformist Czechoslovakia in 1968.”

    The USA also doesn’t have the forces for the same reasons and then some. I guess that leaves weapons like a SWIFT-lockout, or the targeting of Hungarian banks and other institutions for things like “money laundering” in dealings with Russian interests, in the same way that Danske Bank is currently under threat of being put out of business for its Russian dealings.

    Hungary can take some solace that they are not the only country under threat of Article 7 proceedings: Cyprus just got dinged for daring to not back off on helping Russia better understand the dealings of Bill Browder through its financial institutions, something the mob … sorry, US & EU very much are against. And then there is Poland, for having the temerity to decide that an independent judiciary should not mean an uncheckable judicial tyranny.

    Hungary should realise it has gotten about as much money as it will get from the EU without agreeing allow its cultural identity to be overwhelmed and submersed, and should cut and run while it still can. There is an Iron Curtain descending on Europe, and if the eastern states act quickly, they can ensure it falls at their western borders rather than somewhere to the east.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
  9. APilgrim says:

    Hungary is a Christian Republic.

    Victor Orban governs as a Christian Republican.

    Hungarian Government is substantially ‘Of the People, By the People & For the People.

  10. APilgrim says:

    Wrong!

    “People can vote wrong; that is called “populism” and is a bad thing.”

    Populism is often ‘Republican’, ‘Democratic’, & only rarely “A Bad Thing”, in Christendom.

  11. I was recently in Budapest on business and will likely be returning soon: It is the most beautiful city I have ever seen, with stunning architectural restoration projects, almost non-existent police and military presence, food and wines that rival those of Paris, and a very friendly, non-bureaucratic and non-obsese (as opposed to the USA) population. I would like to hear from others who have recently visited and have knowledge of the country. Viszlát! — John

    • Replies: @Hans Vogel
    , @Steven
  12. When the fort of folly that Globalism is finally falls, Diana Johnstone’s article will be cited as exemplary in exposing its hidden grammar. That fall cannot be far off now given that psy-ops can only work if people are ignorant of the manipulation afoot.

    Great opening, Diana. For forty years the presstitude media have leaned on the use of implication as argument to have the ninety-nine percent buy what they are selling. What was not pointed out very well until now, is that their implications are all false. Now, only a dummy among the dumbed-down cannot see it.

  13. For those who have the patience to read the English subtitles, here is an excellent speech given by Orbán in July. Here he outlines his thinking on the issues facing Hungary and the world.

    Viktor Orbán is a very intelligent leader, and he has the vast majority of the Hungarian people behind him. History has taught those people many things, and they have had enough. They are not fools. Look to them as an example for all of us.

  14. @John Siman

    Wherever US influence is not yet overwhelming (and such places are becoming fewer every day, unfortunately), you will still find “old-fashioned” ways of interaction, few fatties, and decent food and drink.

    People may become fat for many reasons, but most fatties these days in the Anglosphere belong to the underclass. These wretches get fat from eating expensive trash at McDonald’s and other fast food outlets, and drinking Coca Cola and similar sugar-saturated garbage. Their behavior may seem strange because their brains have largely withered away through endless TV watching (mainly US or US-inspired visual trash), their hearing impaired by ear- and mind numbing noise passing for music.

    I am afraid the way out of that prison is long and tortuous for all victims of US neoliberalism.

    • Replies: @Allan
  15. The usual anti-EU propaganda that Ms Johnstone has been peddling for at least a dozen years, although she has recently moved from claiming to be a far-leftist to claiming to be a far-rightest. Whatever pretext “proves” the EU to be evil is trotted out! However, she points out very clearly Viktor Orban’s dilemma. The choice for Hungary is between the EU and Putin’s tanks. After 40 years of occupation by a Soviet Union in which the ethnic Russians acted as colonial overlords and the general contempt which Hungarians have for Slavs, choosing the latter option would be political suicide for any Hungarian leader. Thus, Orban is stuck with the EU whether he likes it or not and the other Member States are stuck with Orban whether they like it or not. In addition, two of Ms Johnstone’s factual claims need to be corrected. The “EU” is taking no step whatsoever to strip Hungary of its political rights. The (according to Ms Johnstone, “largely rubber stamp”) European Parliament has adopted a resolution calling on the Member States to sanction Hungary. The EP always does something attention-grabbing in the run up to elections and since Ms Johnstone once worked for the European Parliament (as a far-leftist!), I’m sure she knows that. Imposing sanctions, as always in the EU, is a matter for the sovereign Member States and the decision has to be unanimous. Poland has already said it will not vote for sanctions, so the whole thing is a dead letter. Secondly, the claim that Hungary “never had a colonial empire” is untrue. It never had a colonial empire outside Europe but before 1918, it ruled over Slovakia, most of Croatia, Transylvania, now part of Romania, and the Vojvodina, now part of Serbia (so much for Ms Johnstone’s supposed “expertise” on ex-Yugoslavia!). In general, the frantic, almost hysterical, tone of the article suggests that Ms Johnstone doesn’t believe that Viktor Orban is going to be the cause of the imminent and inevitable demise of the hated EU that she has been predicting for as long as I have been reading her articles (and that goes back at least 14 years!).

  16. @Michael Kenny

    Judging by your name, you are not a European, but an Englishman, or from somewhere else in the Anglosphere. It is a good thing for England and especially the English to be leaving the EuSSR, which is more of a prison than commonly realized. Ruled by a greedy class of corrupt and, to make it worse, utterly mediocre, politicians, incompetent and stupid bureaucrats (yes, I know this is an oxymoron) in the exclusive interest of ruthless big corporations, human rights do not exist in the EuSSR.

    Since the fall of the Berlin Wall, Europe has seen a wave of privatizations on a scale only comparable to what happened in the former USSR. Nevertheless, taxation has increased to a point where today, the average EuSSR “citizen” pays between 75% and 80% taxes on every Euro he earns. The middle class is on its way to extinction. The judiciary is a joke, education has been dismantled or stupidified, health care is a disaster, save in Southern Europe where many doctors and nurses still have a sense of humanity.

    The piece by Mrs. Johnstone may not be flawless, but it says what needs to be said.

    #jesuishongrois
    #weareallhungarians

    • Replies: @EagleEyeX
    , @EagleEyeX
  17. Anonymous[224] • Disclaimer says:
    @Michael Kenny

    The choice for Hungary is between the EU and Putin’s tanks.

    Haha. You silly, silly man.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  18. awry says:
    @Michael Kenny

    Secondly, the claim that Hungary “never had a colonial empire” is untrue. It never had a colonial empire outside Europe but before 1918, it ruled over Slovakia, most of Croatia, Transylvania, now part of Romania, and the Vojvodina, now part of Serbia (so much for Ms Johnstone’s supposed “expertise” on ex-Yugoslavia!).

    Calling that a colonial empire is beyond ridiculous. These territories were part of the Kingdom of Hungary (Croatia was a kingdom itself but in union with the Kingdom of Hungary). Transylvania was a principality for a long time, but it was always part of the kingdom at least nominally until the end of WWI when Hungary was dismembered in the Treaty of Trianon.
    If those were colonies according to you then most countries had “colonies” as borders changed all the time until the late 20th century. Also then Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are British colonies according to your logic.
    But anyway, the remark about colonial empires specifically referred to colonies in Africa and the Middle East, where the migrants are coming from, so your remark is beside the point.

  19. anonymous[739] • Disclaimer says:

    Lots of important things switch sides.

    70 years ago the Democrat party in the American South was the party of regular working class White Southerners and promoted Southern heritage and Southern history including Confederate history.

    Then things change.

    Now the national Democrat party and the Democrat party in the South hates Whites Southerners, hates Southern heritage and Southern history and are promoting the desecration of Confederate monuments and confederate graves.

    60 years ago Hungarian was under Soviet Communist domination and Hungarian patriots looked to the West – especially American and Great Britain to help them achieve some personal freedom from Communism.

    Now things have completely changed. It’s the Wester (EU) UK BBC, American mass media that restricts freedom and National Christianity in Hungary and pretty much everywhere else. Russia is once again a health European Christian nation. Nobody in Hungary, Eastern Europe or Russia wants to allow their countries to be invaded by millions of 3rd world Muslim rapists.

    So I living in Chicago IL (Obama was my neighbor) look to Hungary, Poland, Russia and Eastern Europe for any small dose of freedom.

    Things change.

    • Replies: @Respect
  20. nickels says:

    The list of bullet points is an excellent summary of the forces that seek to destroy countries in the West, and the deftly assemble the varied pieces that are often hard to grasp when trying to explain this position to brainwashed sheeple.

  21. @Michael Kenny

    Don’t forget to make the Kol Nidre tomorrow so that you can carry on with clear conscience.

  22. Beckow says:
    @awry

    You make a valid point – Hungary was not a colonial power – but there are worse things than colonies. And there Hungarians have plenty to atone for. Hungary was not ‘dismembered’ in Trianon, it split mostly along ethnic lines into its constituent parts. Rather like Yugoslavia in the 1990′s. The confusion – that unfortunately many Magyars feed – is caused by faulty English nomenclature for that region. The English naming conventions are derivative, incorrect, and confuse Hungary, Magyars, the Habsburg Empire, and even Huns.

    ‘Hungary’ was the English name for the eastern portion of the Habsburg Empire, that was called Ungarn in German. It has nothing to do with ‘Huns’ other than it sounds similar. Magyars have called their country Magyar-orsagh, and it was always only a portion of the eastern half of the Habsburg Empire. The central region with Budapest that was inhabited by Magyars.

    The proper name is Magyar, not ‘Hungarian’ that is only an English concoction similar to calling English ‘British’. As British includes others: Welsh, Scots, Irish, the Habsburg name Ungarn (or Hungary in English) covered Magyars, Croats, Romanians, Slovaks, Serbs and Germans. The component parts of Habsburg eastern half (Ungarn) consisted of Magyar center, Transylvania, Croatia, Banat, ‘Felvidek’ (upper lands), and what is now Burgenland eastern province of Austria. Magyars were around 40% of population, although they grabbed most political power.

    Now the nasty part: starting in the late 19th century, Magyars tried to forcefully assimilate all other nations living there. They suppressed their political parties, forced Magyar languages in all schools, and even imprisoned and shot some. It was a nationalist dream, it failed and backfired badly. After WWI, when Habsburg Empire collapsed (a mini-EU if there ever was one), all other nationalities decided to separate from Magyars. That was Trianon Treaty, this inevitable separation, not any kind of ‘dismemberment’.

    Orban’s Achilles’s heel is that he has played with Magyar irredenta in the past, claiming rights in neighboring countries. I suspect that EU will find a way to use this weakness. But I fully agree with Orban on the migrant issues.

    • Replies: @awry
    , @Blizzard
  23. Respect says:
    @anonymous

    Things change , yes . It is amazing how things have changed for the bad , in the West in the past 50 years ,

    Finally Reagan`s Evil Empire were us ?

  24. Beckow says:
    @Michael Kenny

    Are you capable of distinguishing between ‘EU’ and the migration crisis? It is pointless to fight straw men, like you always fight ‘Putin’s tanks’, or your silly identification of EU with open borders for Third World migrants.

    To have a discussion requires that you actually listen to what others say, not assigning them what you dream up and then trying to attack it. Orban is not ‘anti-EU’, and EU is not some Belgian Verhofstadt fellow. EU is a democracy where what people in EU prefer should be reflected in EU policies. I suspect if you would put Merkel-Verhofstadt views on open borders and migration to an EU-wide referendum against Orban’s views, Orban would win at least 60-40. His views would probably win even in Germany. So how is he ‘anti-EU’? He represents majority views better than the current EU leadership.

    What you are really worried about is that eventually the will of European voters will be reflected in Brussels, and the liberals will be out of their cushy jobs. Understandable, but petty.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @Anonymous
  25. Respect says:
    @Michael Kenny

    You english always driving left , strange people , go away from the UE , leave us alone , nation of pirates .

    Go with you semper lying British Bullshit Corporation , malignat opinionators , pathological liars , stop making wars , stop robbing , stop doing evil . Shut up , go skripal your old queen , leave mankind alone .

  26. awry says:
    @Beckow

    Now the nasty part: starting in the late 19th century, Magyars tried to forcefully assimilate all other nations living there. They suppressed their political parties, forced Magyar languages in all schools, and even imprisoned and shot some. It was a nationalist dream, it failed and backfired badly. After WWI, when Habsburg Empire collapsed (a mini-EU if there ever was one), all other nationalities decided to separate from Magyars.

    Yeah, but most if not all countries tried to homogenize their population and force on them a common national culture in the 19th and early 20th centuries. For example France did that, they created a unitary state and a French nation, Italy and Germany were created as a country in the second part of the 19th century, Spain did try to assimilate their minorities too etc. Actually the Austrian, Czechoslovak, Romanian and Yugoslav states did the same with their Hungarian minorities after 1920, they did a lot of effort to assimilate them. To an extent they still do. And currently Ukraine does the classic 19th-20th century thing with forcing the Ukrainian language in their schools etc.
    Hungary’s crime is being not successful enough in that (for various reasons, but mostly the result of WWI).

    • Replies: @Beckow
  27. @Beckow

    ” EU is a democracy ”
    In 2005 in just three EU member state referenda were held about what was called EU constitution: France, Netherlands, Ireland.
    In all three referenda this ‘constitution’ was rejected with a two thirds majority.
    Yet it was accepted.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  28. Agent76 says:

    Here is some background on the EU.

    Jul 18, 2016 The European Union: Part of America’s Imperial Project

    The British people’s decision to leave the European Union shocked the political establishment across Europe and around the globe.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  29. @Michael Kenny

    May I recommend that you use (1) logic and (2) paragraphs. Thank you.

    God Bless Viktor Orban. As an American, I wish we had a President like him. It’s obvious that we don’t.

  30. Beckow says:
    @awry

    … countries tried to homogenize their population and force on them a common national culture in the 19th and early 20th centuries…Hungary’s crime is being not successful enough in that

    I agree, that is roughly the way it played out. In addition to WWI, a major reason why Magyars failed in their assimilation and unitary state dream was their language and their small numbers. Numbers matter, when 40% try to ‘assimilate’ 60%, it is bound the fail. French and Italian ratios were better and they had more time. I also think Ukraine today is pushing too far, once shooting starts all assimilation attempts become pointless.

    In history it is often hard to distinguish between what is a failure and what is a ‘crime’. So losing means you suffer twice. My advice to Orban would be to watch out for Brussels playing this local nationalist angle against him, they will try.

  31. @awry

    The history of central Europe is very complicated
    I can recommend
    Lonnie R. Johnson, ‘Central Europe, Enemies, Neighbours, Friends’, Oxford, 1996

  32. @Anonymous

    Gas tanks are meant.
    And indeed, Russia is the better choice, the EU wants us to stop using gas.

  33. @Agent76

    Indeed, AIPAC has a Brussels office

  34. Beckow says:
    @jilles dykstra

    … three referenda this ‘constitution’ was rejected with a two thirds majority. Yet it was accepted.

    True, and yet there is still enough democracy in EU. I cannot explain why the constitution referenda were handled so badly, it was a true f..ck-up, but the democratic processes are still in place. There is nothing keeping the ‘nationalist’ side in EU from winning a majority of seats in the next year’s EU Parliament elections. And then causing havoc and getting their way. If Brussels attempts to cancel or heavily manage it with who is allowed to run, etc… that will be an admission of defeat. And EU might be done at that point.

  35. Three cheers for Diana!

    The real, functional common values of the European Union are spelled out in its treaties: the four freedoms. No, not freedom of speech, since many Member States have laws against “hate speech”, which can cover a lot of ground since its meaning is open to wide interpretation. No, the obligatory four freedoms of the EU are free movement of goods, services, persons and capital throughout the Union. Open borders. That is the essence of the European Union, the dogma of the Free Market.

    Someone like Ben Garrison ought to do a modern, parody version of Norman Rockwell’s famous ‘Four Freedoms’ paintings:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_(Norman_Rockwell)

    •Economic liberals maintain that because Europe is aging, it needs young immigrant workers to pay for the pensions of retired workers.

    But first, they’re gonna hafta to pay for all the immigrants’ kids.

    •Many Jewish activists feel threatened by national majorities and feel safer in a society made up of ethnic minorities.

    Bring back the Austro-Hungarian Empire!

    •More discreetly, certain entrepreneurs favor mass immigration because growing competition in the labor market brings down wages.

    Do liberals ever look at you quizzically when you mention this point? As though they had never heard of the concept of supply & demand? Weird …

    •Many artistically inclined people consider ethnic diversity to be more creative and more fun.

    All that vibrant rape and murder!

    •Certain anarchist or Trotskyist sects believe that uprooted immigrants are the “agent” of the revolution that the Western proletariat failed to produce.

    Oh, they’ll bring revolution alright–God is Great!

    •Many Europeans accept the idea that nation states are the cause of war, concluding that every way of destroying them is welcome.

    Strange. They seem never to have heard of civil wars.

    •International financial investors naturally want to remove all obstacles to their investments and thus promote Open Borders as The Future.

    Plus, the big banks are busy using the IMF, et al., to systematically destroy third-world countries, so all those poor unemployed suckers need somewhere to go, right? You won’t mind giving ‘em your job, will you?

    •There are even a few powerful schemers who see “diversity” as the basis of divide and rule, by breaking solidarity into ethnic pieces.

    Bring back the British Empire!

    •There are good people who want to help all humanity in distress.

    Truthfully, that’s the only good reason in this list. But the fact remains that there are almost always other ways of helping foreigners that don’t involve harming or destroying your own country.

    Like the Soviet Union, the European Union is not merely an undemocratic institutional framework promoting a specific economic system; it is also the vehicle of an ideology and a planetary project. Both are based on a dogma as to what is good for the world: communism for the first, “openness” for the second. Both in varying ways demand of people virtues they may not share: a forced equality, a forced generosity. All this can sound good, but such ideals become methods of manipulation. Forcing ideals on people eventually runs up against stubborn resistance.

    The EUSSR.

  36. Anonymous[224] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    EU is a democracy where what people in EU prefer should be reflected in EU policies.

    But it’s not reflected in Brussels. Hence, EU is not a democracy. I do agree with the rest of your post, though.

  37. RCrowley says:

    “It may not be nice of them, and like everyone they can change. ” The ways of soy are many and varied. Why should they change? Why should they disappear into an ethnic morass of hell?

  38. “Hungary will not be a country of migrants” – Viktor Orban’s scathing address to European Parliament

  39. Avery says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    Yes, a great FM.

    It’s a pleasure to see a patriot unapologetically defend his country, his ethnos, his nation’s Christianity. Excellent English, sharp mind – takes no s____ from a BBC shill-automaton.

    It would be interesting to inquire how many young Muslim male “refugees” is this woman accommodating in her house: you know, giving them rooms to live in, feeding them, providing prayer rugs, removing any Christian symbols from her house so as not to offend the feelings of her Muslim ‘guests’, etc, etc.

    This is the type of so-called EU “human rights” and EU supposed multiculturalism Hungarians are not interested in, Ms. BBC Fascist.

    [Muslims attack Christians in UK streets 'we're taking over' 'we hate you']

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  40. RobinG says:
    @awry

    You, and perhaps also Johnny R., have assumed that Viktor Orbán was talking about Jews. Maybe he was, but his description better fits global capitalists of any stripe. Their only allegiance is to money.

    Of course, many of these are Jews, such as criminal vulture capitalist Bill Browder who renounced his US citizenship to avoid taxes. Browder secreted his ill-gotten gains from financial fraud on Guernsey, one of the “Treasure Islands” described in this film on British offshore banking.

    The Spider’s Web: Britain’s Second Empire (Documentary)

  41. pyrrhus says:
    @Anonymous

    Well said! As to the billionaires and the scheming politicians, if they are not arrested and punished, the entire map of Europe will be wracked by violence within a generation.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @peterAUS
  42. EagleEyeX says:
    @Hans Vogel

    She may have missed the mark on some details and should be called out on it …but she sees the forests. And unlike any other western European leader currently running their deceptive mouths, I take Putin’s word for it when he states clearly and often, that Russia has no interest in occupying or subjugating the worlds masses. He wants to do “business” and let the natives fight out their own ideological issues internally.
    This malignant USA save the world for democracy crowd is a shipwreck beyond salvation. And the money it takes to finance it is steadily running out while the wise in Rx and China are just avoiding any unnecessary slip ups as the ship slowly slowly goes under. It’s really a no brainier….they do not want confrontation , unlike the stupidity of the west, because they are not so void of intelligence as to not understand the calamity of a nuclear war.
    I am sure that the people of Hungary remember clearly the repression and violence of the Soviet occupation. I think that any caution evident in dealing with today’s Russia is well deserved. I also think Putin’s Russia is not the USSR and many would do well to take the time to listen to him when he speaks. As I said in the beginning, he is unlike the current crop of liars and carpetbaggers running the show in the west. Thankfully.
    So that truth basically blows out the most provocative error in the writers bag of BS.

    • Replies: @EagleEyeX
  43. EagleEyeX says:
    @EagleEyeX

    Mr Vogel…
    I mistakenly hit the reply to your comment with the above. Forgive me the error.
    I had lost my internet connection after writing my comment to Mr Kenny and thought that it was lost….I wanted to compliment you on your reply to him above.
    Thank you

  44. EagleEyeX says:
    @Hans Vogel

    Thank you for this Mr Vogel……you are totally correct.

  45. hunor says:

    There is no such country as Hungary , or United states of America or EU.
    They are al subjugated slaves . Who subjugated them ? They can’t be named or criticized
    Who could they be ?

  46. map says:
    @Michael Kenny

    Did you know that those who work for the EU pay a 20% income tax rate?

  47. Anonymous[224] • Disclaimer says:
    @pyrrhus

    I’m more than ready. None of us can leave it to our children because we’re too cowardly and weak. It doesn’t work that way in Europe.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  48. @Avery

    She’s probably giving them more than food and prayer rugs.

  49. peterAUS says:
    @pyrrhus

    …the entire map of Europe will be wracked by violence within a generation.

    Something like that.

    The question, though, is: which direction that violence will take?

    Two most likely options, IMHO:
    Towards lower strata of society….everywhere.
    In essence, the “top” ruling with an iron fist. Well, with a healthy dose of breads and circuses (pharmaceuticals included). Some combination of Orwell and Huxley.

    Towards some other nation state/group of nation states.

    I’d go for the option 1 as more likely, at least in Western Europe and West in general.

    Boils down to managing a huge number of people who can’t have meaningful employment.
    Immigration, in short term, brings the wages down. Top happy. Even brings down cost of products and services, so middle happy too.
    In longer term dilutes bottom cohesion, hence possible resistance. Top happy. And all of the middle still believe they can get to the top so no current resistance.

    The key is to manage the middle long enough to lock the system in place.
    Not long now I guess.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  50. @Anonymous

    Not sure I’m understanding you. Europeans aren’t cowardly and weak in the face of their own rapid dispossession? Seems like we are screwed on both sides of the pond if we don’t wake up and fight back, hard and fast.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Anonymous
  51. Miro23 says:

    Economic liberals maintain that because Europe is aging, it needs young immigrant workers to pay for the pensions of retired workers.

    Foreign workers don’t need to have any right to citizenship, They can have contracts with entry and exit dates + pay taxes and have health insurance that they pay for.

    Many Jewish activists feel threatened by national majorities and feel safer in a society made up of ethnic minorities.

    Then the best option is to live in Israel – or be less of a Jewish activist.

    More discreetly, certain entrepreneurs favor mass immigration because growing competition in the labor market brings down wages.

    Cheap labour is a major attraction. Stop the immigration and outsourcing and better wages will return to Europe (i.e. make more balanced societies)

    Many artistically inclined people consider ethnic diversity to be more creative and more fun.

    Maybe this is a class issue. These “artistically inclined people” mostly don’t live in run down immigrant slums.

    Certain anarchist or Trotskyist sects believe that uprooted immigrants are the “agent” of the revolution that the Western proletariat failed to produce.

    Bolshevism has morphed into SJWism and LGBT. The idea is to destroy the structure of society, ethics, family, history etc. and uncontrolled mass immigration really helps with this and is part of the same package.

    Many Europeans accept the idea that nation states are the cause of war, concluding that every way of destroying them is welcome.

    19th Century Imperialism finished with WW2 (apart from Israel which is still playing the game with its US colony and expanding Middle Eastern possessions).

    International financial investors naturally want to remove all obstacles to their investments and thus promote Open Borders as The Future.

    The digital/internet age offers enormous profits from global integration of production (outsourcing) + free flow of capital. Neoliberal economic dogmas are the lies to the Western public about how they supposedly benefit.

    There are even a few powerful schemers who see “diversity” as the basis of divide and rule, by breaking solidarity into ethnic pieces.

    Basically the Jewish MSM (and globalists) in both the US and Europe who feel themselves at risk. Neo-Bolshevism again.

    There are good people who want to help all humanity in distress.

    True and honorable, but in Europe they are being used by political activists. They’re what Lenin called the “Useful Idiots” and the first to be liquidated under the Bolshevik dictatorship.

  52. Hungary may have never had a colonial empire, but they did have a “Greater” Hungary which ruled over Romanians and Slovaks.

  53. peterAUS says:
    @RadicalCenter

    …Seems like we are screwed on both sides of the pond…

    We are. I’d add both sides of Tasman sea too there.

    I’ll start believing there is a positive (for my layer of society) solution when see somebody..anybody….meaningfully discussing those obscure and mundane topics as:
    Increasing automaton in production of goods and services.
    The nature of work and related paid employment re automation, overpopulation and aging society.
    Or….simply living in that type of society.

    In meantime, simply readjusting for what’s coming soon: being “managed” by the top. Just enough of a carrot and stick (hopefully in that order) not to get some ideas.

  54. Skeptikal says:

    Excellent essay.
    Viva Orban.
    And, Viva Dianne Johnstone.
    Two voices of sanity.

  55. Skeptikal says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    This interviewer should be fired immediately.
    Unbelievable. I am speechless.

  56. Skeptikal says:
    @awry

    I suspect Orban is making a strategic pact with Netanyahu.
    Also, there are many bona fide Jewish Hungarians. Who were born in Hungary and who speak Hungarian.
    Why wouldn’t Orban respect their religious choice?
    Russia is also at base a Christian, Orthodox country, but it is also genuinely multicultural , and there is a program in the RF to build mosques and, I believe, renovate synagogues.
    Language is very important for cultural identity.
    Naturally Hungary wants to preserve its linguistic identity.
    So does, BTW, Germany.

  57. Beckow says:
    @peterAUS

    Societies where the top rules with an iron fist are inherently unstable. They are also in direct conflict with the Western mental self-perception. It is true that people are capable of a lot of cognitive dissonance (with some pharma and games), but it would be too glaring a dichotomy. I think the elites are not as much interested in an iron fist, as they would like atomised, heterogeneous societies that lack any sense of solidarity. Hence, open borders, movement of people all around, and migrants from the Third World.

    What we often overlook is that mass migration from the Third World is basically its elites running away, and their endless relatives and hanger-ons. They are people with some resources, and often an ‘elite’ member who came first is acting as facilitator. Western elites – especially the wobbly soft liberal types – are all over themselves with affinity for the Third World elites. They like them a lot more than their own less successful co-patriots. This is basically ethnic treason, and all blabla talk about ‘creativity’ and ‘compassion’ are pointless distractions.

    There will be mayhem in Europe, but it won’t be just an iron fist, the explosion of anger could be devastating. And elites – as always – will be very surprised.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  58. Skeptikal says:
    @Hans Vogel

    ” holding medieval beliefs (i.e. mohammedans)”

    Actually, Judaism is a far more primitive religious belief system than Islam.
    It is racist at its root, unlike both Christianity and Islam.

    It is violent and exclusionary and deceit is inherent in Judaism’s DNA.
    Only the cultural surroundings of Judaism in Europe and later the US have given it a patina of normalcy. Even so, as practiced in Lithuania and Eastern Europe s and parts of Brooklyn, Israel, and Upper New York State, Laurant Guyenot is absolutely correct: the grip of Jewish belief and culture and tribal community is something to try to free Jews from.

  59. geokat62 says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    I posted this comment soon after the interview aired. It provided a little background info that explained the dogged nature of the interviewer:

    Apologies for this OT comment, but I just came across this innocuous tweet by Millennial Woes, and I felt compelled to share it with my fellow Unzers:

    In it, MW’s linked to a YouTube video with the following description:

    Published on Jun 26, 2018
    The Hungarian government has passed a bill that will give the state extraordinary powers to jail any individual or group seen to be promoting or supporting illegal migration – including help for asylum seekers.

    Emily Maitlis sits down with Hungary’s foreign minister Péter Szijjártó and asks him if he thinks Hungary and the EU could ever find compromise on the issue of migration.

    Newsnight is the BBC’s flagship news and current affairs TV programme – with analysis, debate, exclusives, and robust interviews.

    As is my wont, I DuckDuckGoed the name of the BBC interviewer, Emily Maitlis. Well, to my surprise, Wikipedia forgot to expunge the following personal information:

    From a Jewish family, Emily Maitlis is the daughter of Professor Peter Maitlis, FRS, Emeritus Professor of Inorganic Chemistry at the University of Sheffield, and Marion Maitlis.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Maitlis

    Every. Damn. Time.

    So, unbeknownst to her viewers, it turns out that (((Emily))) may not have been the objective journalist BBC viewers may have presumed her to be.

    The question I have is this: “when is the BBC planning on having (((Emily))) sit down with the Jewish state’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, Tzipi Hotovely, to conduct a similar interview in which she blatantly attacks her and her country of being “Xenophobic” because they ban and deport black African refugees from entering or remaining in the Jewish state?”

    Answer: “When hell freezes over.”

  60. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    I hear you.

    This….topic….thing’s been my interest for quite some time. Actually, the only serious interest re society etc.

    So, I agree with:

    I think the elites are not as much interested in an iron fist, as they would like atomised, heterogeneous societies that lack any sense of solidarity. Hence, open borders, movement of people all around, and migrants from the Third World.

    with enough of breads and circuses; the “pharma” thing part of the later.

    The crux is:

    There will be mayhem in Europe, but it won’t be just an iron fist, the explosion of anger could be devastating.

    My belief is that the combination of technology for direct control (surveillance, direct violence delivery, incarceration etc) and for enough of breads and circuses will keep enough of masses docile and “manageable”.

    Technology is the key here and, actually, in a positive way.
    It will, I believe, be able to deliver basics/essentials of life for most of the population.
    People raging against the current paradigm don’t want to see that, fundamentally, the “poor” in West live now better than affluent only 50 years ago. Normal people that is, don’t count those abusing fast food etc.
    And it’s hard to imagine masses going against a system with good oppressive technology when not hungry.

    Most of people don’t even register what bothers most of readers/posters/authors here.

    Reality check, like what is really that “poverty” in West. Really.
    A normal, prudent person can always, I believe, manage life essentials for close family, kids in particular.
    I’ve seen plenty of immigrants here living better on social services only, than when fully employed in those shitholes they came from. And they know it and admit it most of the time (when go over the pride etc.).
    Revolutions happen, most of the time, when there is no food for the kids on the table.

    Another hard question “alts” often neglect: what’s the preference for an average person between, say, police state and open mass violence in society. I am sure that, should you ask that question a Westerner, he/she will prefer police state to Yugoslav games 91-99.

    We just live well enough not to rock the boat. Keyword “enough”.
    And, that’s all what matters.

    Problem with populists, from Brexit to Orban, and masses behind them, is they know what they do not want, but not quite sure what they really want.
    Yes, they, like here, don’t want “immigration”. But….hehe..what if with “no immigration” as a part of the package is “no EU”?
    Look at the Greeks. Enough said.
    “Cake and eat it” thing?

    I know this topic is huge and too serious for this medium, but, can’t see much of comprehensive discussion anywhere.
    Like: this is what we really want and this is what we accept as a price for it.
    Keyword “price”.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @iffen
    , @Beckow
  61. the cynic says:

    Russia was a nasty place a while back…but the “peoples” who ruled from behind the curtain have moved on…their descendants have moved to a new base of operations… I believe they now control their nefarious dealings from America.

  62. Anonymous[224] • Disclaimer says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Europeans are waking up.

  63. @peterAUS

    Yesterday we had the traditional third tuesday in September, our King reading a statement about how the country is doing, and will be doing better.
    It is a great medieval spectacle, king an queen arriving at the ancient government builing with thrones, coming in a medieval coach with six horses, surrounded by many miltary men in uniform on horses.
    Just a few security men at both sides of the coach disturb the show.
    Do not think I want to abolish our monarchy, though our king hardly has any political power left, he still is a national symbol above warrying parties.
    But what he has to read to us, polls show that around a quarter of the population still has any trust in the fairy tales our government wrote again.
    Comments at the few discussion sites still left in the Netherlands agree, most of them, we no longer have a government interested in the Dutch people.
    The present coalition, again, rules with one seat majority, 76 of the 150 seats.
    This is called democracy.
    In my opinion it has very little to do with democracy.
    If and when this bubble will implode, who knows ?

    • Replies: @Hans Vogel
  64. Wally says:
    @jilles dykstra

    said:
    “Christianity and the Holocaust of the Hungarian Jewry’, Moshe Y Herclz, 1993 New York University press also is a very interesting book, after jews in the thirties had been banned from many intellectual professions not a single Hungarian newspaper could be published any more.”

    True Believers in the impossible ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ no doubt ‘find that a very interesting book’.

    Imagine the NY Times & Washington Post no longer being published, such newspapers not being published would be / was a true blessing.

    http://www.codoh.com

  65. @awry

    Israel is a nation that everyone knows is evil, but also knows they have to cooperate with-or else. At least until a decisive, fatal blow can be delivered.

    Being on Netanyahu’s good side, even if only superficially, probably does wonders to help you avoid the many perils associated with angering the Zionist right and their Mossad. And since right now everyone is more focused on purging the CultMarx left, it pays to make friends with tomorrow’s enemy so that they do not encircle you while your back is turned and fighting another foe.

    Plus, it gives you time to figure out where their spy networks are operating within your nation and what they are up to. It’s a bad, bad idea to go to war with Israel before you have a solid plan for dealing with their Samson Option. Israel I imagine would be very easy power to defeat and corner, but also very hard to finish off completely without instigating mutually assured destruction for the whole world. Nuclear blackmail is a nasty thing.

    This is, in fact, an argument that can be made for Trump as well. Sometimes, when I am feeling uncharacteristically optimistic, I wonder if he didn’t intentionally surround himself with Ziocon lackeys like a human shield, knowing he would be walking in front of a CultMarx firing squad upon his ascension to POTUS. It makes a certain kind of crazy sense, as their cries of antisemitism give them something of a bulletproof quality on the public stage. And so far at least, he has managed to avoid starting another war by placating Israel with trivial actions like embassy moves, tough but empty rhetoric against ‘animal’ Assad and some laughably ineffective missile strikes.

    The world truly is stuck between (((a rock))) and (((a hard place))) in the form of Cultural Marxism and Zionism. I wonder if we will make it out alive? Not much we can do for now but hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Maybe if we bide our time productively, a way to turn this wild card of a populist uprising into an opportunity to turn the tables in our own favor will present itself.

    • Replies: @2stateshmustate
  66. @Anonymous

    Dubai and Diversity

    Immigrants to Dubai don’t hassle local Emirate women. Neither Muslim nor Western nor Filipino touch or even talk to Emirate women.

    Why is that?

    I knew one Mexican chef who was pumping the second wife of some Dubai businessman. She was a bored rich Arab woman who had her own apartment in his building. The Mexican chef was really laying the pipes to this Arab woman-she sort of looked like Paula Abdul.

    I told Pedro he was “crazy”.

  67. @Miro23

    I lived in Dubai and no foreigner can be a citizen. I met Indians born in Dubai and they were not citizens.

    The same goes for most of Asia. You can be married to a woman and have children but you are still not a citizen.

    This is all a moot point because Gen X and Gen Y Nordic countries are having no children and in 20 years they will take their retirement funds to Greece or Southeast Asia or some other country and there will be no tax money to cover the cost of huge Muslim families and the country will collapse.

  68. @Miro23

    SYMPATHY FOR THE GLOBALIST-

    I feel sorry for Stanley. He got stuck in Flint. He was halfway through an IT degree at Central when he got a local Flint girl pregnant and she was a Polish Catholic who flat out refused to have an abortion. So he got stuck in Flint and probably will never leave.

    I sure as would not have have hung around where I am from.

    I’m fortunate to have come of age in a global period of history when I could work overseas and eventually move to Asia where my standard of living is better.

    Many of the people I came up with in Michigan have lives that are straight up pathetic. Mostly because they impregnated some girl. Better them than me.

    I’m damn glad to have been able to do business overseas and gotten the hell out of Southeast Michigan and Phoenix.

    I’m also glad that the Mestizos and Hood Rats have no money to travel. Who wants some she-boon chimping out on an international flight. Or Cholos moving to Tokyo to “tag” buildings and seeing their greaserito Richard Ramirez mirthless glare.

    Of for that matter, the cheap swaggering self-assertiveness of white hillbilly hicks and whiggers.

    Its a joy to be away from them while still able to live off what I can make.

    Think I want to go back to my corner of Southeast Michigan and be a son of the soil? The soil is sewage.

  69. iffen says:
    @peterAUS

    Problem with populists, from Brexit to Orban, and masses behind them, is they know what they do not want, but not quite sure what they really want.

    Solid.

  70. @jilles dykstra

    That anyone in his right mind should still be a supporter of the Dutch monarchy seems unbelievable to me. The “Royal family” is but a group of imposters, exerting undue influence over Dutch public life. At any rate, 80% of all legislation in the Netherlands, like in all EuSSR member states, is decreed by the Eurocrats at Brussels. I see no light at the end of this tunnel.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  71. Beckow says:
    @peterAUS

    Few points:

    - People have always overestimated impact of technology, after a while people get used to it and even 360 surveillance becomes less effective; when you know everything and everyone knows that you know everything, it loses power to intimidate
    - The distraction aspect of technology, easy access to endless busy activities is wearing off – it will require an infusion of ‘new stuff’ and Hollywood is clearly incapable, they are in a nepotistic self-referential meltdown
    - There is an obvious elite split and it will not end soon – the competition for elite status means that ambitious strivers will continue destabilizing it
    - ‘Nationalism, populism’ actually know what they wants, rather precisely: protected labor markets (limit cheap labor), acknowledgment of nations, security and middle class lifestyles.

    Revolutions and unrest and not triggered by hunger, they are fed by elite competition, economic and debt issues, and a sense that elites are out of touch (‘corrupt’). Hunger used to feed unrest in the past, but to assume that is the only trigger is simplistic.

    Ask yourself a simple question: what will be the response by the elites at next economic downturn. They have used up the easy methods (0% interest, more debt, global collaboration, ‘new faces’ like Obama/Macron), what will they do next time?

    And a system that cannot easily afford an economic crisis is not stable. As of today the level of debt in the West is not mathematically sustainable. There are only two ways out: massive defaults (and resulting economic crisis) or inflation. You cannot have inflation with over-supply of labor and open borders, you need the incomes to go up. What populists are saying actually makes a lot of economic sense. (This will be volatile, get some popcorn.)

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Hans Vogel
  72. John Ward says: • Website

    There is probably no politician on Earth (not even Trump) so regularly smeared, misquoted & totally misrepresented as Viktor Orban. Equally, among a collection of exceedingly nasty gannets in Brussels, there is no greater hypocrite than Guy Verhofstadt.
    I thoroughly enjoyed this post, as it made a welcome change from the usual Western MSM hacks churning out what the Alt State wants to hear.Very few politicians are perfect, but Orban is far more honest than most and serves The People – as opposed to cuddling up to unelected power and globalist money.

    https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2018/09/16/orban-or-not-to-ban-why-decent-people-in-the-west-support-hungary/

  73. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    Few points:
    - People have always overestimated impact of technology, after a while people get used to it and even 360 surveillance becomes less effective; when you know everything and everyone knows that you know everything, it loses power to intimidate

    Yes, at this stage. “They” watch, but not act. Tell me, how many of us posting here would be still posting if a couple of us got, say, 5 years prison sentence for a comment?

    - The distraction aspect of technology, easy access to endless busy activities is wearing off – it will require an infusion of ‘new stuff’ and Hollywood is clearly incapable, they are in a nepotistic self-referential meltdown

    True. Introduce virtual reality into each home. Plus, give more access to pharmaceuticals. Meds for all those “syndroms” thing, for example.

    - There is an obvious elite split and it will not end soon – the competition for elite status means that ambitious strivers will continue destabilizing it

    Yes. That is what we agree and I do believe that’s what’s going to happen. What we see from Brexit is that parts of local elites feel being left out. That will only gain momentum.

    - ‘Nationalism, populism’ actually know what they wants, rather precisely: protected labor markets (limit cheap labor), acknowledgment of nations, security and middle class lifestyles.

    Fair point.
    So…how do you manage “protected labor market” with increased automation? So far it’s been shedding jobs in manufacturing. The next decade will see the same process in lower end white collar jobs.
    THAT is something I haven’t seen populists talk much about.
    Oh, yes, there could be plenty of jobs in service industry. That what we are looking for? Really?

    Revolutions and unrest and not triggered by hunger, they are fed by elite competition, economic and debt issues, and a sense that elites are out of touch (‘corrupt’). Hunger used to feed unrest in the past, but to assume that is the only trigger is simplistic.

    Yes and no.
    Yes, re elites. They “start” and lead that. No for foot soldiers. They need hunger or true (physical) fear as motivation.

    Ask yourself a simple question: what will be the response by the elites at next economic downturn. They have used up the easy methods (0% interest, more debt, global collaboration, ‘new faces’ like Obama/Macron), what will they do next time?

    An excellent question. I’d say The Question we should be asking here instead of making thousands comments on…ahm…. “those” articles/topics here.
    Don’t know.
    Having said that, been thinking about that very topic for quite some time now. And…hehe….I do say I have real life experience with all that. From clandestine meetings to being shot at (among other things). Or so I say…..
    I’ll try to answer that question, extremely briefly. To answer it properly you and me would need to spend a weekend talking about it, in person, in park/along a beach.
    So, to The Question:

    … what will they do next time?

    Depends where they are.
    In West, they shall impose “proper” Control State. Plenty of details there, plenty of possibilities and fine tuning but that’s what I believe.
    And that takes care of the below too:

    And a system that cannot easily afford an economic crisis is not stable. As of today the level of debt in the West is not mathematically sustainable. There are only two ways out: massive defaults (and resulting economic crisis) or inflation. You cannot have inflation with over-supply of labor and open borders, you need the incomes to go up. What populists are saying actually makes a lot of economic sense.

    As for

    (This will be volatile, get some popcorn.)

    that ain’t Hollywood movie thing.
    That …ahm…”game”….I see coming is hard.
    From my feel of posters here maybe 5 % would be able to handle it without falling apart.
    Me…personally…..to tell the truth, I feel just old and hence weak for it. Became soft.
    Looking at people around me….my God…..even old and soft as I am now I am twice harder than all of them. Imagining them going against The System….oh my.

    No, mate…in West we’ll have proper Control State and that’s it.
    In Eastern part of Europe, well……that’s another matter altogether.

    As I said…HUGE topic, but, either way I cut it I see the same outcome at least for a decade or so.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Beckow
    , @iffen
  74. Diana Johnstone brilliant as usual.

    • Agree: gsjackson
  75. Anonymous[224] • Disclaimer says:
    @peterAUS

    “They” watch, but not act.

    True – 20 years ago. If you can’t figure out that they’r acting since then – you’re worse than useless to anyone.

  76. Blizzard says:
    @Beckow

    Word “Hun” is derived from the Chinese Hiung-nu, a word which designates warlike nomads in general, while other nations applied the name Hun in a similarly indiscriminate way to nomadic hordes of all kinds, including the “White Huns,” Magyars and Khazars. Note that while the Brits in World War I used the term “Hun” in the same pejorative sense, in Hungary schoolchildren were taught to look up to their “glorious Hun forefathers” with patriotic pride. An exclusive rowing club in Budapest was called “Hunnia,” and Attila is still a popular first name in Hungaria.

    In the first century AD, the Chinese drove these disagreeable Hun neighbors westward, and thus started one of those periodic avalanches which swept for many centuries from Asia towards the Europe. From the fifth century onward, many of these westward-bound tribes were called by the generic name of “Turks”. The term is also of Chinese origin (apparently derived from the name of a hill) and was subsequently used to refer to all tribes who spoke languages with certain common characteristics – the “Turkic” language group. Thus the term Turk, in the sense in which it was used by medieval writers, refers primarily to language. In this sense the Huns and Khazars were “Turkic” people, but not the Magyars, whose language belongs to the Finno-Ugrian group.

    Huns first came to Roman realm with the Barbarian invasions of Mediterranean in the 4th century AD (375 AD), formed their Hunnic empire based in Pannonia (where today Hungary lies: that’s why Germans refer to that land as “Ungarn” or you English as “Hungary”) and settled there. The Magyars appeared on the scene later on, as an offspring of Attila’s horde, on eastern parts of Hunnic empire between rivers Don and Volga, so Magyars were Huns during the Attila’s time and it seems apt to call them so today even though they settled down and stopped with the nomadic life. The Magyars migrated to Hungary in the late 9th century (896) led by their leader Arpad.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  77. @Non Sum Qualis Eram

    I disagree about Israel ever using the so-called Samson option. For one thing there are more Jews outside of the settler colony of Israel than in.
    On the other hand if enduring the so-called Samson option is the only way to get rid of this vile, evil, (honestly I can’t think of the proper words to express my hatred of that thing called Israel) then so be it. Or as that traitor Bush said “bring it on”.

    But It ain’t ever going to happen. When the folks inhabiting Israel see the jig is up they will scurry off to most likely the US and fuck this place up even more than it is now.

    • Replies: @Altai
  78. @Beckow

    Actually, methinks apart from defaults and inflation there is a third way out: war, which is exactly what the US is preparing for. I mean not the kind of sustained colonial warfare against weaker enemies the US has always been so good at, but war against a real opponent, such as China or Russia. Only this time around the US will not be able to rely on virtual mercenaries from vassal states like England, France and other NATO puppets, but it will have to furnish the foot soldiers itself! I wonder how many non-obese, lobotomized lower class patsies would be willing to join the armed forces and serve as cannon fodder. It will be hard for LGBT…A-Z diversity armed forces to find enough real soldiers in the current enlisted labor pool.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  79. Miro23 says:
    @Hans Vogel

    I wonder how many non-obese, lobotomized lower class patsies would be willing to join the armed forces and serve as cannon fodder. It will be hard for LGBT…A-Z diversity armed forces to find enough real soldiers in the current enlisted labor pool.

    I honestly don’t think they need to worry about that.

    It’s a commonplace that militaries prepare to fight the last war, which they’re doing right now with their aircraft carriers, manned aircraft etc. World War 3, with the US facing off against Russia or China will be a nuclear exchange, maybe lasting a few days, with weapons far more powerful than those used against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Major cities will be obliterated and the sophisticated supply networks needed to support populations of 100′s millions will disappear.

    Under this WW3 scenario, I can’t see any remaining vestige of government spending time worrying about inflation/deflation or obese, diverse, LGBT armed forces. They’ll be in deep bunkers trying to stay alive.

  80. @Hans Vogel

    You seem to be unaware of the fact that the W European constitutional democracies were, Brussels is rapidly changing this, the best countries to live in.
    No nasty mud slinging presidential elections.
    My concern is the other way round, is it fair to more or less force a family to live in a golden cage ?
    If ever there is a time of porfound crisis, the Dutch people will listen to their king.

  81. Allan says:
    @Hans Vogel

    “neoliberalism” is a buzz term of wannabe totalitarians who pose, ironically, as liberators.

  82. Beckow says:

    If there is a war both defaults and inflation will happen, so I had that covered.

    My reading of the Western strategy is that they want to win without having to actually fight a war. They dream of winning by economic strangulation, press attacks, regime overthrows by their putative allies, ‘soft power’, destabilization, constant irritating, and some opportunistic small wars. I doubt that will work against large enemies like Russia, China, Iran. It hasn’t even worked well against much smaller ones. But the idea of fighting an actual war and sustaining casualties is taboo in the West – they cannot do it psychologically.

    The danger – or an opportunity – is that the above behaviors could escalate into a full war. That would fix the current economic problems and we could all celebrate that the real evils like populism, nationalism, closing borders, deficit spending and debt write-offs will have been avoided.

    Another option would be to somehow trigger one’s enemies into fighting each other, ideally China vs. Russia, or some other combination. There is an almost wistful tone to some media articles about how that could happen, nostalgically mentioning previous hostilities, speculating and dreaming. Weak people are often left with their dreams and hopes, that doesn’t make them any less dangerous.

  83. Beckow says:
    @Blizzard

    Your summary is informative, thanks. But I don’t see any actual linsk between 4th century Huns and 9th century Magyars, other than geographic proximity (with a few hundreds years gap) and the fact that uninformed outsiders often used same names for similar groups.

    in Hungary schoolchildren were taught to look up to their “glorious Hun forefathers” with patriotic pride. An exclusive rowing club in Budapest was called “Hunnia,” and Attila is still a popular first name in Hungaria

    That is true, but means very little. Magyars have had an affinity for nomadic raiders the same way as some Celts worship ‘King Arthur’, Romans claimed descent from ‘Trojans’, or today’s Macedonians claim descent from Alexander Macedonian. History is full of false narratives, people like to mythologize. Linguistic, DNA and historical sources contradict any actual link. Some Magyars have tried to suggest that Huns somehow hid for a few hundred years in the Carpathian basin – unseen and undetected. Or that they were remains of Huns in Central Asia who joined Magyars on their trek westward. It is highly unlikely, and in any case ‘Huns’ are not a well defined tribe.

    There are credible alternative explanations for the German term ‘Ungarn’ (from which ‘Hungary’ was derived). The region has been referred to as Uhri or Wengri by surrounding nations like Poles, Czechs, Romanians since time immemorial. It means roughly ‘next to mountains’ – ‘u hor’. Germans automatically replace ‘h’ with ‘g’, and Ungarn looks like an adoption of the local term ‘Uhri’. It would simply mean the country ‘next to mountains’, and it is that, a huge valley surrounded by the Carpathian mountains. No need to dream up a Hun-Attila connection, other than by lazy English outsiders. Magyars are Ugro-Finns from around Ural, a much more interesting reality.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @Blizzard
  84. @Beckow

    According to
    Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen, ‘ The world of the Huns’, 1973 Berkeley
    no Huns remained in Europe.
    The author spent his whole life researching Huns.

    • Replies: @Blizzard
  85. Beckow says:
    @peterAUS

    how do you manage “protected labor market” with increased automation?

    Cut working hours, as was always done before with increased productivity. It is very simple, but requires that the working people have some negotiating power – that is exactly why financial elites want open borders and unlimited labor supply. It is literally that simple.

    You are right about pharma, there are quite a few possibilities there.

    I am skeptical about any state attempting full control – it goes against Western inner myth, the whole ‘freedom’ talk, etc…The liberals are also quite incompetent. But we will see.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  86. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    Although I agree with

    Cut working hours..

    I am not quite sure

    ….It is literally that simple…

    Or, if we were what we like to believe we are, yes, it would’ve been simple.
    You know, nice and smart. People I mean.

    Two elements are always left out there: greed and will to power over other people.

    And, there is another element there: what are people going to do with their free time?
    Get into intellectual and/or artistic pursuits? Or try to get more working hours and more money to buy…things.
    My experience: 5 % of employees would choose more time over more money. And we are taking about white collar professionals already having a comfortable life. But…hehe…..there is always that another, bigger car…….house……longer travel in more expensive hotel.

    Hahaha…just funny: spoke recently with my dentist, old fellow, still working full time. Doesn’t need to , can comfortably retire in a second. Asked him why…..and the answer is….hehehe…he likes to travel.
    As the Devil said in “Devil’s advocate”: “….a man’s appetite…….”

    That’s for the ruled.

    As for rulers the current paradigm isn’t so much about economy; it’s about CONTROL.
    Those “in” work longer and harder for less or they are “out”. Those “out” struggle to make ends meet.
    Both groups focused on that. Makes them easy to control. Add greed and there we are.

    Say, a white collar professional, contractor. When he does a contract he has no time/energy for anything outside work, really. Easy to ….”manage”. A nice citizen drone.
    When he’s out of contract he spends most of his time/energy to land another one. Again….easy to “manage”.

    Control, power ….greed. Us.

  87. iffen says:
    @peterAUS

    Revolutions and unrest and not triggered by hunger, they are fed by elite competition

    If Peter Turchin is correct it should hit the fan within 10 years or so. If I am blessed, I might be here for the festivities.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  88. peterAUS says:
    @iffen

    As I said before, yes and no.

    A…change (revolution is a bad word for most of Westerners, Americans in particular) is a complex thing.

    Among other things it requires both a part of elite which feels being left out of power/perks and sizable part of masses feeling the real pain of the situation.
    Both…….

    At the moment we can see rudiments of it, from Brexit to Trump.

    Big topic so I’ll be brief re my point, or The Problem as I see it.
    The current power (call it Globalists) has full story figured out. From core values, phylosophy…..to the fine details of implementation. Their “foot soldiers” have very clear picture about all of it. All.

    The, say, “populist” reaction (I wouldn’t even call it a challenge) is ………CONFUSED.

    A couple of days ago I watched Bannon’s interview by some bitch in red dress (Economist I think…doesn’t matter).
    Felt bad.

    I have a feeling this “populist” thing will fizzle out and then “They” will come back with vengeance.
    True, it could create fireworks but I doubt it. Say, “festivities/no festivities” 30/70 %.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @iffen
  89. Blizzard says:
    @Beckow

    There are no Huns as people, ethnicity, culture, etc. Huns are nomads. That’s the name most adopted in describing the various nomad people, which I explicitly pointed at, but which you failed to comprehend. Magyars didn’t have “an affinity for nomadic raiders,” they were nomadic raiders. Kings Arthur is indeed Celtic legend; you don’t think that myth of king Arthur actually originated from Anglos, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians and Normans, do you? Today Macedonians are indeed of Macedonian bloodline the same as Alexander was, only of different culture. History is not “full of false narratives,” it is full of propaganda and false interpretations, deliberate or not; that’s why ones needs to take old sources as points of reference as the propaganda machinery is of modern date.

    Again, you fail to understand even the basic concept of the Hunse: it included various different people with their diverse languages and cultures. Magyars just like the Khazars were indeed subjects of Attila. They were the Huns until they separated themselves and went their own way. Now which exactly people settled in basin where Hungaria lies and whose leader was Attila — nobody knows. They were referred to by the outsiders as the Huns. You failed to comprehend this basic fact, drifting instead into delusion that Huns were a people just like them Magyars are. Have I not pointed to the White Huns? They formed a large empire stretching from central Asia all the way to Gujarat in India. Hephthalites were also Huns, just like those living in Hungary at the time of Attila.

    https://www.ancient.eu/White_Huns_(Hephthalites)/

    Again, Huns are not a tribe, they were the confederation of various people, cultures, tribes and nations. Magyars in the 9th century at the time of their migration to Hungary were made of 7 tribes. One Khazar tribe called Kabars also joined them in their move.

    What “Wengri?” You mean Wends. The Wends were people, but they lived way north off today Hungary, on the Baltic sea coast, Pomerania and surrounding lands. Germans didn’t replace anything, they just referred to the land of the Huns – who were their masters at the time of Attila – as Hungaria (i.e. German name for it, or rather translation of the name into German language).

    • Replies: @Beckow
  90. Blizzard says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Aren’t you the guy I once proved to be totally ignorant on this very same subject of Ostrogoth-Magyar empire? I recall your ignorance even if you perchance do not. That “expert” is no real expert. He is just a propagandist. Let me ask you a simple question, Dutch-man. Do you think those Africans “have not remained” because they were culturally colonized by the French and English? All those hundreds of millions Africans who speak French and have French names, do you think they are “no more” because of it? My advice to you would be to stop following any “experts.” You Germanics are far worse than the Huns ever were, you destroyed far more advanced civilizations than yours was or will ever be, but you don’t see anyone, expert or no, saying that “no Germanics remained in Europe.” Europe is your homeland just like it is to the Huns, but you should know what Europe is and where it stretches: from north to south, from east to the west. It’s not like on those maps where Europe is portrayed as a “continent.”

    • Replies: @Hans Vogel
  91. Beckow says:
    @Blizzard

    You are all over the map and assign to others what you are doing yourself. There were 50o years between Huns and Magyars. 500 years. Your statement that Magyars were ‘subjects of Attila‘ is a made up mythology. It is completely unsupported by any sources. Magyars were not known at that time of Attila.

    Huns were nomads, we agree, but not all nomads were Huns. There were Scyths, Sarmatians, and later on – 5oo years later – there were also Magyars. Ethnically Huns were most likely Mongol tribes with possibly some Turkish allies. Magyars are Ugro-Finns, related to Finns, Estonians, Mordvins, etc… DNA testing of Magyars shows them almost identical to their Austrian, Slavic and Romanian neighbors – they are not Asian nomads.

    I meant Uhri and Wengri – the name that Magyars are called by Czechs/Poles etc… It is clearly derived from ‘U hory’ that means ‘next to mountains’. The Ungarn is a German translation. Wends are completely different people by Baltic see, why are you mixing them into this?

    My point was that Magyar link to ‘Huns’ and Attila is almost completely made up. There is no historical evidence for it. The fact that English language uses the word ‘Hungarian’ is simply another English historical inaccuracy. Magyars call themselves Magyars – there is no word among Magyars that even approaches anything sounding like ‘Huns’. The whole Attila link is a mostly 19th century mythology invented by Magyar nationalists to give themselves more longevity in the Carpathian basin. And something to use in their children stories. Just like Romans were claiming descent from Troy. Right.

  92. Skeptikal says:
    @peterAUS

    I question the ability of an American, Bannon, to galvanize a European movement.
    Perhaps if he stays behind the scenes and advises front figures he can get something galvanized.
    But, I suspect that Europeans, at least intelligent ones, are sick of Americans of any stripe—civilian or military, left or right— meddling in their politics and will not let Bannon take a lead of any kind. Also, I see Europeans as being way out ahead of any American when it comes to analyzing the current historical moment and formulating a policy and political/electoral response.

    But, we’ll see. Perhaps Bannon is just what dissatisfied Europeans have been waiting for . . . ????

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @iffen
  93. Blizzard says:

    These are Finno-Ugric tribes:

    http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Iron/FUMigration.html

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/native-americans-vs-finno-ugric.358377/

    Can you read maps, or is it too hard for you?

    If Huns were Mongols, there would have been quite a lot of biological evidence left behind. Mongols were and remained numerically small people. They couldn’t have conquered anything alone. Even during Gehghis Khan era, “Mongol” hordes weren’t formed entirely from Mongols. If Huns were Mongols, no doubt there would be plenty of evidence to support that claim. Turkics were Mongols’ vassals, not allies.

    Do you know that the first time Magyars are ever mentioned is in connection to their vassalage to Khazars? Have I not mentioned the Kabars, one tribe of Khazars which left toward Hungaria together with the Magyars? How could they have “Ugro-Finnic DNA” today, as you say the tests show, if they are known to have existed alongside the Turkics and if those lived in Hungaria at the time of their arrival were certainly not of Ugro-Finnic origins? Don’t you think if Huns were Mongols by race and ethnicity, we would see that in appearance of Magyars since Magyars assimilated during time since their arrival in Hungaria in 896? There would indeed be plenty of evidence, instead as you point out they don’t differ by DNA from their Slavic neighbors, and which their physical appearance indeed verifies.

    Again, Germanics knew what Hungaria, the land of Huns, was long before some Polacks and Czechs found their words for Magyars, many centuries before. Have you heard of homonyms? You know what it is? It’s what your look-a-like “u-hory” word is pointing to (that word doesn’t sound Slavic at all, and yet both Czechs and Polacks are Slavics).

    What you are confusing here is cultural, specifically linguistic aspect. Magyars spoke Ugro-Finnic language and now you want to make Magyars to be of the same DNA as Ugro-Fins. Language and culture is one thing, biology is another. Yes, Magyars call themselves Magyars, Magyars are not Uhli or Wengri (those are not Slavic words, so Slavics Czechs and Polacks couldn’t possibly take non-Slavic words as “their own” to designate Magyar people; they rather sound Germanic to me). Something stinks in your “facts,” Anglo.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Beckow
    , @anonymous
  94. peterAUS says:
    @Skeptikal

    I question the ability of an American, Bannon, to galvanize a European movement.Perhaps if he stays behind the scenes and advises front figures he can get something galvanized.

    I don’t think he can. He’s an American. He simply doesn’t understand European nationalism. It’s not about citizenship etc. It’s about blood.
    What a good American, as Bannon, sees as American is NOT what a good, say, Finn and all the rest down to including Greeks, see.
    Same name……totally different thing.

    But, I suspect that Europeans, at least intelligent ones, are sick of Americans of any stripe—civilian or military, left or right— meddling in their politics and will not let Bannon take a lead of any kind.

    Well…they can’t really. The very idea of nationhood is different there.

    Also, I see Europeans as being way out ahead of any American when it comes to analyzing the current historical moment and formulating a policy and political/electoral response.

    Yes.
    The thing is …doesn’t matter. The power of US is the key here. Naked power. It will simply squash any true nationalist movement in Europe.
    As Serbia was squashed 1999. for example.

    Which brings us back to the core issue with European nationalism. Ethnic war of the “Heart of Darkness” proportion.

    Want serious in this online pub?
    Here it is: if/when true Serb and Croat nationalisms pop up again they’ll go against each other. And one side (leave that to the reader….) will more than happily coopt Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo/Albanian Albanians as own forces against the other player.

    And, I just have a gut feeling we’d see similar process across the Eastern Europe.

    After watching, with some difficulty, that interview I find Bannon initiative as a dead end.

    • Replies: @iffen
  95. RobinG says:
    @Blizzard

    You changed your name? Too much baggage (or DNA) with the dfordoom moniker?

    • Replies: @Blizzard
  96. Beckow says:
    @Blizzard

    The word is Uhri (not ‘Uhli’). It is based on slavic U hory – and it has a very Slavic etymology: ‘U’ means ‘next to’ and ‘hory’ means ‘mountains’. Both words are ancient and shared by all Slavic languages, e.g. in Russian ‘hora’ is ‘gora’. The word ‘hora’, or mountain, is directly derived from word ‘hore’ that means ‘high up’.

    The etymology and its ancient origin are indisputable. We can argue if Germans took the word from Slavic languages (population there was predominantly Slavic starting in 5th century), or not. But you seeming preference for ‘Germanics’ over Czechs and ‘Polacks’ makes a rational discussion harder.

    You maps are frankly retarded – they try to recreate 4th century based on sparse data. Then you seem to project 500 years ahead and apply these highly speculative maps to Magyars.

    You also don’t get what I am saying: Magyars are Ugro-Finns linguistically, but they are genetically (based on their DNA) identical to the other groups living in that region, Austrians, Slavs, Romanians. I am not going to speculate on what happened to small Hun population after 4th century, most were probably killed, some probably retreated back to Central Asia, some were assimilated into Goths, Sarmatians, etc… But there is no historical connection with Magyars who appeared for the first time 500 years later.

    But if you prefer Atila myths, well, enjoy, but it is not exactly a rational view of one’s history. Or even an appealing myth to celebrate – Huns were murderous, uncivilised ass..les, why would you desire to be descended from them? They were probably killed off and that is a good thing.

  97. anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Blizzard

    Can you read maps, or is it too hard for you?

    Who is this even aimed at? A brief glance at your posting history shows this is par for the course for you. We aim a bit higher here, sorry if it crimps your style.

  98. @Blizzard

    My oh my, it would surely seem you have mounted your high horse. Your trust in maps and what passes for history is endearing, but also naive and not quite justified. As matter of fact, historical knowledge is piecemeal and shaky. After all, history is not a science but merely an academic discipline, practiced generally without regard for the basis rules of academic research and debate, even, or especially, at universities. And believe me, I know of what I speak, since I have long been an academic historian. History in the “West” is no more than a state ideology and whoever strays from the flock is branded a “revisionist,” a “conspiracy theorist” or worse. In short, just like in the Middle Ages, those wo do not agree with the dominant faith are heretics. See the interesting comments on fake history by Docherty and McGregor on their blog.

    As for those Huns, it is quite likely that they were a mixture composed of various peoples or tribes (to equate people who speak a certain langauge with a “people” or “race” is a very persistent and romantic error; language and “blood” are not necessarily related). See the readable book by Éric Deschodt, Attila, Paris: Gallimard, 2006.

    As for the murky period between 500 and 1000 AD, we know almost nothing about it. See the work by Heribert Illig, e.g. Wer hat an der Uhr gedreht; Wie 300 Jahre Geschichte erfunden wurden (1999).

    No academic historian dares adress this interesting and provocative position, see: http://www.historien.nl/raadsels-rond-karel-de-grote/

    • Replies: @Blizzard
    , @Blizzard
  99. Attila fought the Roman legions to the stalemate. Than he married German princess, He got a nosebleed and died. He was buried in golden coffin that was put in silver coffin and that was put in iron coffin. eventually placed in bottom of the river Tisa.
    His two suns were fighting for power no one prevailed. Huns did not return to the steppes of Ukraine.
    They did remain in present Hungary. They never created functioning state, and they eventually ggot absorbed by Slavic tribes. Eventually Magyars came ad pushed out the Slavic tribes mixed with Huns.

    • Replies: @Blizzard
  100. iffen says:
    @Skeptikal

    IMO Europeans have a better chance of getting off the ground because of the parliamentary system. Our two-party system is an initial disadvantage. However, if you can seize one of the two parties you have an advantage over the parliamentary system.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  101. iffen says:
    @peterAUS

    Let’s see what happens when the Safeways and Wal Marts are not re-stocked every week.

  102. iffen says:
    @peterAUS

    As Serbia was squashed 1999. for example.

    Serbia wasn’t squashed, it’s still there. Greater Serbia was squashed.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  103. Blizzard says:
    @Beckow

    To start with your 1st two paragraphs, “u hory” is not not a Slavic word. “U” is a preposition in Slavic languages and means exactly what preposition “in” means in English. I know because I speak very fluently the southern Slavic language group. “Hory” if you wish to equate to “hora” and from there translate it into “gora” doesn’t mean mountain but hill, but sure it means “higher up.” You are playing with homonyms, and causing confusion. To me “hory” sounds more like “glory” and the word both has the same meaning and similar writing in both Slavic and Germanic language groups since both groups belong to Indo-European language group.

    You are causing confusion because Germanics knew about Hungaria, where their superirors were stationed, long before Magyars came to Hungaria. All historical records, documents, papers, scripts achieves and other evidences from all cultural sources of various people and civilizations, on which those maps were drawn, show you the same picture: the place where Hungaria now lies is the place Huns led by their warchief Attila took for their homeland and settled there. Have you noticed contradictions born from your ignorance and lack of comprehension? That translation of the word “u hory,” which you first designated as description the land (in 83rd post) but then proceeded by saying the word is definition of how Czechs, Pols and Wallachians’ called the Magyar people (in 91st post) just betrays you (also note that Wallachians are no Slavics, so how could they a “Slavic” name there).

    Simpleton, if Magyars are Finno-Ugric people, then they lived in those areas which Ugro-Finns inhabited which were subjects of Attila’s Hunnic empire, as the maps clearly show. There is simply no way Ugro-Finns could ever stay unconquered by those much stronger Hun Turkic speaking people. The first time we ever heard about Magyars is their mentioning as being Khazar willing subjects centuries later after the end of Attila’s Hunnic empire. But this is 5th or 6 th time you confuse the meaning and definition of the Huns after you had been informed about it.

    Again, for the 7th time, Huns were a generic name which designated all nomads. That’s all. Attila’s Hun people which settled down in Hungaria obviously didn’t have any culture, they were only nomadic warriors of the steppe, and thus they lacked finer cultural and ethnic related identification Scythians, Khazars and others had. It is you who live in the myths of your own making, unable to comprehend simple truths that Magyars (if they called themselves thusly in 5th century; could as well be that name Magyars was adopted later on) living in their Ugro-Finic area couldn’t have possibly be sovereign: they were subjects of Attila’s in 5th century, they were subjects of Khazars in 9th century, they were subjects before Attila, they were subjects in the time between 5th and 9th century, and only stopped being subjects of their stronger Turkic speaking neighbors whence they moved to Hungaria in late 9th century.

  104. Blizzard says:
    @Hans Vogel

    “As for those Huns, it is quite likely that they were a mixture composed of various peoples or tribes (to equate people who speak a certain langauge with a “people” or “race” is a very persistent and romantic error; language and “blood” are not necessarily related). See the readable book by Éric Deschodt, Attila, Paris: Gallimard, 2006.”

    Exactly, Hans Vogel. My point all along.

  105. Blizzard says:
    @Hans Vogel

    As for your reference to the link, I don’t care about Charmelange and history about Franks. I despise Ostrogoths the most, but I don’t like any Germanics at all. Germanic history is not something which interests me.

  106. Blizzard says:
    @RobinG

    You must have confused me with someone else. I did have a name here a year and a half before, but forgot which mail I used for the name, thus took this Blizzard Entertainment name you see now.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  107. Blizzard says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Indeed, Ilyana Rozumova. Huns didn’t return to their steppes, they stood where they settled down as clearly demonstrated by their proud Hunnic heritage I pointed to in my 1st post on this thread. They were assimilated by Magyars being similar people as Magyars are. Both Huns.

  108. Blizzard says:
    @Beckow

    So now Huns of Asian Mongol race were “probably killed and some probably retreated” back after arrival of the Magyars? You are making up, lying, obfuscating and fabricating as usual. Huns weren’t killed or left away, they are very proud of their heritage in Hungary, something you would notice even if you just read my posts comprehensively. All historical accounts also confirm the fact that Attila’s Huns were in Hungaria at the time of arrival of their Magyar brethren. You Anglos are the biggest liars of all. As people I mean. You are such obfuscators, fabricators, deceivers, liars, thieves and fraudsters. I don’t address this to you personally, it’s just an observation of character traits you as people display. It’s Germanic trait.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Steven
  109. Skeptikal says:
    @iffen

    I agree. I have long felt that the US system is an impediment to political progress.
    The prognosis for seizing one of the two parties is slim—at least, to move things in a progressive direction or even any direction that would be a red-blue compromise (but neturalizing the MIC, internationalist banks, etc.).

    We would be in a far different situation in this country if we had a parliamentary system. Alhthough, in light of the new power of the media, all bets are off. Look at what is occurring in the UK, a parliamentary system.

  110. peterAUS says:
    @iffen

    Let’s see what happens when the Safeways and Wal Marts are not re-stocked every week.

    Yes.
    Starts with increased police presence then goes into “emergency” mode (read Katrina) and, if necessary, all the way to nation wide martial law.
    They have the process mapped out in minute detail.
    “We” don’t even know who our neighbors are.

    Serbia wasn’t squashed, it’s still there. Greater Serbia was squashed.

    Hehe…..
    Good post. Shows how even a switched on American gets European nationalism.
    Even Croat veterans of even Ustasa type agree that taking Kosovo out of Serbia in ’99 was wrong. Well, at least those I spoke with.
    All good.

    • Replies: @iffen
  111. iffen says:
    @peterAUS

    They have the process mapped out in minute detail.

    American police forces/military will not do extensive mass killings in times of panic and hysteria.

    Even if there is a total breakdown, “our” side cannot benefit. No organization, no nothing. Trump can’t even staff the White House with supporters.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  112. Beckow says:
    @Blizzard

    …All historical accounts also confirm the fact that Attila’s Huns were in Hungaria at the time of arrival of their Magyar brethren

    We don’t need ‘all’, we just need one. Could you provide it?

    As context goes, around 100,000 Huns in 5th century invaded and raided Europe. The area where they were dominant had an estimated population of 2-5 million people, local farmers, shepherds, etc… Huns died in huge numbers in wars, e.g. when defeated in France over 30k Huns were left dead on the field. Your argument that somehow 2-5% of population with a very short life span (due to their pillaging lifestyle) survived for 500 years in Europe is an obvious nonsense.

    Some irrationally nationalistic Magyars like to work the ‘Hun’ heritage into their pedigree. It makes no sense and there is zero historical evidence for it. It is also puzzling why would they want to. Huns were repulsive and primitive people with no culture and very ugly physical appearance, we are better off with them exterminated in the 5th century. Magyars are better than that.

    • Replies: @Blizzard
  113. Beckow says:
    @Blizzard

    “u hory” is not not a Slavic word

    Well, it is. You lost me right there, and the rest of your post is incoherent. 500 years is a long time: Huns in 5th centurty, Magyars in 9th century.

    ‘U’ means ‘next to’. ‘Hory’ means mountains. If you don’t know even that, well I can’t help you. (I never mentioned South Slavic, these are Western Slavic languages.) And your ‘glory’ is just bizarre nonsense, you are very random.

    • Replies: @Blizzard
  114. peterAUS says:
    @iffen

    American police forces/military will not do extensive mass killings in times of panic and hysteria.

    You appear to be, at least slightly, interested in the topic.
    A suggestion: read (available) US Military docs. Say, an MP battalion in area/crowd control etc.
    Then, try to visualize how it would work around the place you live.
    Actually….hahaha…….wait….cancel that. Just watch the masters of the game, the recent Hamas and IDF confrontation. There was even an exhaustive thread (or two…) on this site. Some examples from Iraq (from both Americans and Brits) come to mind too.
    As I said, “they” perfected the game there. With just a little bit of customization more than applicable on US soil. Say, more .338 Lapua Magnum than 25 mm.

    Even if there is a total breakdown, “our” side cannot benefit. No organization, no nothing. Trump can’t even staff the White House with supporters.

    Precisely.
    I mean, those Palestinians and Iraqis at least had/have some cohesion and organization.

    The only sort of hope is that the troops won’t go full bore from the very beginning. That could give the time to organize.
    Timing is the king there.

    But, seeing how detached/isolated the troops are are from society in general and well brutalized through COIN, well, don’t know. I guess that is The Question even the Chairman can’t answer.

    For Europeans, though, it’s much easier should US leave them alone. Last time Western Europeans tried something we saw Normandy. Last time East Europeans tried something we got “Merciful Angel”.

    On practical level the emasculation of all East European militaries under US umbrella (and that includes Serbia too) does leave the locals (nationalists) able to deal with state oppression.
    True, the problem is, there is no national service there either, but, in 3 weeks proper training an able bodied person can be effective enough for that game.

    So, bottom line…hehe….all Eastern European nationalists need is US watching and not touching. “No involvement, thank you. None. Just leave us alone. Do something else. Attack Iran….. or whatever.”
    Bannon initiative included.

  115. Blizzard says:
    @Beckow

    You know how many nomads invaded and how many populace the invaded lands had? Don’t make me laugh Anglo clown. Entire nations were moving during the so-called Great Migration. Considering how quickly some people breed, they don’t need much time even with a single woman. Nigerians went from 150 million in 2008 to 190 million in 2018, a staggering 27% increase in population in only 10 years. Clown, have yo heard of assimilation or is the term foreign to you? Do you know what colonization is? Can you imagine in your head those invaders taking women of invaded lands for themselves?

    Magayrs are proud of their Hunnic heritage, else they wouldn’t talk about “glorious Hun forefathers.” Nothing wrong with that. Nobody has problem with that, noone sane anyhow. Huns were not as you say of Mongol race and origin, else it would show itself up in appearance of Magyars. Clown, historical accounts show that Huns were neither killed or expelled. it would have been recorded if it did, since they lived so close by us, and left their mark in Europa.

  116. Blizzard says:
    @Beckow

    Are you really that low in IQ that you cannot comprehend stuff 6 year olds easily digest? I was explicit about where the Magyars lived, under whose suzerainty, when their name first appeared in history books, etc. It’s all there in posts 93 and 103.

    “U” doesn’t mean “next to,” I said it is a preposition meaning exactly what preposition “in” in English means. Hun-garia — land of the Huns. Only a complete moron couldn’t see the root of the word, from where it stems, and only a total fruitcake cannot read maps or historical accounts to understand where those Huns settled down to know why the land is called thusly, instead a fruitcake goes on a quest of finding some similarity between the words “u hory” and Hungaria. I pointed out the same words-play by connecting the words hory and glory, which indeed sound similar and possibly mean exactly the same too. “U hory” — i.e. “in glory.” Sound way more reasonable than connecting the words “u hory” with Hungaria.

    What happened to those other 2 names, Uhri and Wengri – “the names that Magyars are called by Czechs/Poles etc… It is clearly derived from ‘U hory’ (post 91)?” Uhri and Wengri are not Slavic words, and neither is “u hury” which you say those former names are derived from.

  117. Anon[350] • Disclaimer says:

    As a matter of fact, “Hungarians never had an empire” is debated by Orban himself, who thinks Hungarians are the grandsons of Huns and other assorted warriors. That in 1700, there were about 70 Christians left in Hungary does not concern him.

    More recently, Hungarians achieved a somewhat privileged position in the Austrian Empire, which about 150 years ago, at the beginning of its dissolution, even rebranded as Austria-Hungary. As such, in 1918, and during WWII, Hungarians attempted to re-form the Eastern Austrian Empire. Luckily, in most cases, the other countries held, but Hungarians are some of the most despised nations in Europe, at least by their neighbors. They did have an empire, between 1939 and 1944.

    The way to achieve for Hungarians was to suck it up to any neighboring empire. However, they sucked it up mostly to Lenin and Hitler, so nothing good came out of it. Hence, it is still a small country, with the mood of a short man.

    Now, Hungary is free to fuck off EU, but does not. There is no disobedience. Orban is mimicking opposition, until EU courts will force him to take it or leave it, at which point he will chose EU subsidies.

    Hungarians will not leave the EU trough.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @Vojkan
    , @Altai
  118. @Anon

    ” but Hungarians are some of the most despised nations in Europe, at least by their neighbors. ”
    Despising neighbours is a sport all over eastern and central Europe, and in the Balkans.
    Why, I never understood.
    A Tsjech who fled Tsjechoslovakia in 1968 worked for me, graduated in economics in the Netherlands.
    At some occasion, forgot what, he said with deep contempt in his voice ‘the Slovaks are stupid farmers’.
    I always regretted not having asked him why this contempt for Slovaks.
    He was a very reasonable and intelligent guy, spoke Russian.
    As you know, Tsjecholovakia fell apart.
    For the Balkans
    Dennis P. Hupchick, ‘The Balkans, From Constantinople to Communism’, New York, 2001
    A very interesting book is
    Jaap Scholten, ‘Kameraad Baron, Een reis door de verdwijnende wereld van de Transsylvaanse aristocratie’, Amsterdam Antwerpen 2011
    It describes Transsylvanian aristocrats, how they lived when they still ruled, and how the communists treated them.
    I for one can understand a revolution against these nitwits, who seem to have done little else than drinking, gambling and chasing women.
    Not much difference with
    L.N. Tolstoy, ‘War and peace’, 1869, 1978, Harmondsworth

    As to the EU, it is falling apart.
    AfD now is the second party in Germany

  119. Vojkan says:
    @Anonymous

    Just a remark about the ‘artistically inclined’. Pardon me for not considering the ‘queen’s vagina’ in the yard of the Versailles palace, or the giant plug on place Vendôme in Paris, or anything that ‘artists’ like Marina Abramović do to be Art.
    So that you know what I am talking about,

    https://www.google.com/search?q=le+vagin+de+la+reine+Versailles

    and

    https://www.google.com/search?q=plug+place+vend%C3%B4me

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  120. Vojkan says:
    @awry

    Since he’s on my ignore list, after reading your post, what he wrote seemed so stupid that I had to go to see it in full. Well, if that’s a colonial empire, then every country in Central and Eastern Europe has a colonial past, given that they have appeared and disappeared and that their borders have moved incessantly throughout History. Every country there has a large native minority belonging to the same ethnic group as a neighbouring country’s majority. One more ludicrous comment by Kenny.

    • Replies: @Anne Lid
  121. Vojkan says:
    @Anon

    Whatever Hungary’s past, the migration crisis of the present day is not of its making. Therefore, Hungary’s refusal to suffer from it is perfectly legitimate.

  122. Altai says:
    @Hans Vogel

    Orban is among the precious few intelligent and courageous politicians to stand up against this organized repetition of the collapse of Roman society in the fifth century, AD.

    Orban isn’t very smart or courageous. That’s the point. Prior to the flood of hundreds of thousands of sketchy young men across their territory, his government was a disaster and highly incompetent. His government itself was a kind of accident. But he was given a problem that was idiot-proof to solve. (Telling the army to build a relatively short all on their Turkish border.) He simply is just too unintellectual and unempathetic to be indoctrinated with modern Western elite ideals.

    What’s remarkable is how all these much smarter, more intellectual leaders are being beaten by Orban. And how they’re not learning anything from it, for them it requires forsaking their religion and the values of their peers.

    • Replies: @Hans Vogel
    , @RadicalCenter
  123. Altai says:
    @Anon

    Hungarians will not leave the EU trough.

    Of course not. They want what Merkel’s boys want. Access to Western labour markets. Until such time as masses of foreign EU citizens want access to Hungary’s labour market (Or asylum seekers stop seeing it a transit zone) don’t expect opinion on EU membership to go into the red.

  124. Anne Lid says:
    @Vojkan

    Agree. There is a Hungarian joke about some old man, who during his life was a citizen/subject of three different states, while never stepping a foot outside his village. The borders have changed a lot. Butt hurt remains. It really does not make a lot of sense, since we have a greater danger looming, than some irredentist Hungarian dreaming about Greater Hungary. Who the heck wants to deal with all the squabbling minorities? (There are some minorities already, but they are not grumbling. Outside the borders there is some distrust, likely stemming from insecurity.) Blizzard is probably right, a few Hunnic males could have produced many offspring, and probably they did leave enough children to melt with tribes arriving later. I don’t have the slightest objection against it, and never, ever met another Hungarian who felt ashamed about possible Hunnic ancestry.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  125. @Altai

    Perhaps you know him more intimately and perhaps you are Magyar yourself. Unfortunately, I cannot read or understand Hungarian, so I would not be able to give an informed reply to your observation. Yet on the basis of the other languages I read and understand, and from inside info, I can safely say that most EU and member states’ politicians are overwhelmingly mediocre, corrupt, deceiving, cowardly, self-serving crooks. Whether they are called Juncker, Timmermans, Merkel, Macron, Rutte, Michel. And from what I gather, Orban enjoys an electoral base that no other European leader can muster. He must be doing something right.

  126. Beckow says:

    …Despising neighbours is a sport all over eastern and central Europe

    Despising neighbours is a sport everywhere, or at least pretending to. It comes with the whole living next to each other thing. I lived in Netherlands for a short time and what I heard about despised ‘Belgians‘ and Germans could not be written here. The French ‘boche’, dumb, slow Germans in Austria., or Swedes in Denmark, the full ‘Portuguese’ spectrum, ‘Irish Express’ jokes in England, etc… All neighbours are genetically conditioned to bad-mouth each other. It helps with keeping boundaries.

    I agree that in east-central Europe this sport has been more acute. On the other hand, there are almost no examples of us actually fighting brutal wars against each other (outside of Balkans). Our issue are eternal attachments to some outside power, Germany, Russia, Habsburgs, Ottomans, English, French, and lately even remote Americans. The dynamic is always the same: an external power appears on the scene with promises of power, careers and being on the ‘right side of history‘ (an obsession among people who don’t think they can ever direct their own history). And we join, oppose, re-join, fight on behalf of others, and after a lot of suffering we wake up and nobody can remember why. I blame our comprador mentality and absurdist yearnings among our intellectual elites.

    Today maybe, just maybe, we are slowly outliving it and what is left are stereotypes and jokes. But the moment somebody in Brussels re-discovers that ‘Huns’ mean different things to different groups, they will attempt to stir it up again. Frankly, jealous outsiders don’t have much of a choice, east-central Europe is the worlds’ paradise, they will need to attempt again to bring it down.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @peterAUS
  127. Altai says:
    @2stateshmustate

    I disagree about Israel ever using the so-called Samson option. For one thing there are more Jews outside of the settler colony of Israel than in.

    But over time a particular Israeli identity separate from diaspora Jews has evolved. Sure lots of Ashkenazim outside Israel think a lot about Israel but Israelis don’t think too much about them. The population of Israel too is becoming less Ashkenazi and more Sephardic each day.

    They don’t have a notion of being a diaspora population that will just flee to the next homogeneous white country when the consequences of their behaviour comes. Add to that the local elites will lose their particular privileged position and power networks.

    The modern world also makes assimilation impossible to resist outside Hassids.

    I think if the likes of Likud continue on for a few more decades and the Israel lobby remains that something like a genotype-activated bioweapon might be the ultimate endgame.

    • Replies: @2stateshmustate
  128. Vojkan says:
    @Anne Lid

    I have spent most of my life in France, hold French citizenship, and feel more French than Serbian, though I was born Serb and now live in Serbia. France has taught me objective analysis. That the French don’t apply what they taught me is a different problem.
    There is a Hungarian minority in northern Serbia. There is a Serbian minority, less numerous, for objective historical reasons, it’s not their ancestral home, in southern Hungary. Whatever happened in the past is past. The important thing is that we now repect each other and behave in a civilised manner.
    The ‘refugees’ that we haven’t created, that the West has created and now invites in our lands have a long way to go to reach the standard of civilised behaviour. We have every right to refuse to suffer the consequences of big powers’ policies.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  129. @Beckow

    ” I lived in Netherlands for a short time and what I heard about despised ‘Belgians‘ and Germans could not be written here. The French ‘boche’, dumb, slow Germans in Austria., or Swedes in Denmark, the full ‘Portuguese’ spectrum, ‘Irish Express’ jokes in England, etc… ”

    I wonder where, when, from what kind of people.
    I now live in the Netherlands, where I was born in WII, conciously one may say, for over 65 years, and nowhere ever heard what you seem to have heard.
    There of course are, or were jokes, do not think anybody ever took them seriously.
    Boche, BTW, was a French word for Germans, especially in and after WWI.
    If it was used in WWII, I do not even know.
    British pilots in WWII used the expression ‘beware of the Hun in the sun’, German fighters diving down with the sun behind them.
    In Denmark there are Danes, Swedes are in Sweden, the country next to Norway.
    Germans do not live in Austria, they are ‘Oostenrijkers’, Austria in Dutch is Oostenrijk.
    Oostenrijkers do speak German, though we have difficulty understanding it, pronunciation is different.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  130. @Vojkan

    ” The important thing is that we now repect each other and behave in a civilised manner. ”
    Well, Yougoslavia did not fall apart in any manner one could see as civilised.
    Franjo Tudjman, ´Horrors of War, Historical Reality and Philosophy’, 1996, New York
    Branko Miljus, Hervé Laurière, ‘Assassins au nom de dieu’, 1951, Paris, 1991, Lausanne
    These are books about WWII horrors, but after Tito died more or less the same happened.
    Why, I never understood.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
    , @Steven
  131. Vojkan says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Well. At the end of the 1990′s, I have done three things, modesty be gone, I’ve done a few others but they’re not for public disclosure, that have influenced History. I have co-written ‘An apology to Serbs on behalf of the Karadjordjević for creating Yugoslavia’, I confess I don’t remember the exact title of the published piece, signed by the late prince Alexander, son of the regent prince Paul, who tried to make peace with Hitler but was deposed by a British organised coup (though communists will never admit that they didn’t do it), I have co-written a speech the same prince has given before a par-terre of free masons in the Maison de l’Europe, rue des Francs-Bourgeois in Paris, and I have convinced his chief of office to convince His Royal Highness to officially support Vojislav Koštunica against Milošević in the Serbian presidential election back in 2000.
    Communism / Socialism have never been my cup of tea. Internationalism neither. Yugoslavia has, until I realised that although we spoke the same language, we would be at each other throats on first occasion.
    Serbs will say, Croats exterminated Serbs in WWII, and they did, and they horrified the Germans. Croats will say, Serb troops killed demonstrators in Zagreb who didn’t want to be subjects of a Serbian king, they will say Serb shot Stjepan Radić, of the Croatian Peasant Party, hardly a nazi fascist ustasha, and it’s true. And neither side is actually known for being capable of restraint.
    Serbs ill say what Greater Serbian nationalism are you speaking of since post WWII Yugoslavia has been ruled by Croats and Slovenans? That is true too.
    As for so-called Bosniaks, they’re regarded by both Croats and Serbs as remnants of the Ottoman occupation. That’s what they are.
    We would probably hate each other less if there hadn’t be a Yugoslavia. I bet the USA / CIA, I know of their involvement too, I’ve got my hands on some classified documents while serving in the Yugoslav People’s Army, wouldn’t have been able to create such a bloody mess.
    If there hadn’t been a Yugoslavia… But that’s only my opinion.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  132. Beckow says:
    @jilles dykstra

    A few years back in Rotterdam, Erasmus, I heard things.

    If you dismiss the stuff about Belgians, Germans, Portuguese, or what Danes say about Swedes, etc… as jokes, you can also dismiss most of the stuff that east-central Europeans say about each other as not very serious. We fight, argue with each other, but it isn’t materially that different from anywhere else. We are just more blunt and less polite.

    It is an interesting example of a deep, (mostly) unconscious stereotype that Western Europeans have about the east. A combination of laziness, disinterest, partial truths and a huge amount of propaganda that Westerners swallowed wholesale for generations. We in the east were a bit more skeptical, and our elites have never been good at propagandizing. As things are evolving, our region is looking better and better, and Western Europe not so much. If you project 1-2 generations forward, the West could be a real cesspool, at least its big cities. We need to prevent that from happening here, and mutual antagonisms need to be put aside. But I can see how this is a no-win situations for Brussels. When population fails to hold its elites accountable, they eventually share in the blame for what happens. Dutch royalty might be colorful, but to fail to speak up about the ongoing demographic destruction in Netherlands is inexcusable.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  133. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    The dynamic is always the same: an external power appears on the scene with promises of power, careers and being on the ‘right side of history‘ (an obsession among people who don’t think they can ever direct their own history). And we join, oppose, re-join, fight on behalf of others, and after a lot of suffering we wake up and nobody can remember why. I blame our comprador mentality and absurdist yearnings among our intellectual elites.

    Nice.

    As for

    …there are almost no examples of us actually fighting brutal wars against each other (outside of Balkans)

    re that region, from the comment 118

    ….Why, I never understood…..

    and 130:

    Franjo Tudjman, ´Horrors of War, Historical Reality and Philosophy’, 1996, New York
    Branko Miljus, Hervé Laurière, ‘Assassins au nom de dieu’, 1951, Paris, 1991, Lausanne
    These are books about WWII horrors, but after Tito died more or less the same happened.
    Why, I never understood.

    doesn’t matter (understanding or not). The fact is all what matters.
    Plenty of things we don’t understand but here they are and quite important.
    Like death, for example. Or cancer. Hell, even a common cold.

    The train of thought some people could have is simple:
    Weakening of EU idea->rise of European nationalism->resuming of violence in Balkans (keyword “resuming”)->now what…….
    As for the fine points of that “resuming”, different from the last time is the Muslim entity there and the Islamic thing in ME and the world in general as we speak. So, if the last time was bad, the next could be……….interesting.

    Boring topic, probably.

  134. RobinG says:
    @Blizzard

    Then why does Unz attribute that pseudonym to you?

  135. @Blizzard

    I am sorry ” u” in Slavic languages does not mean ” in” in English .
    “U” in Slavic languages means “by the” in English.
    Example:
    Uhory could means people living by the mountains.
    (But the correct grammar would be U hory)
    “In” translated into Slavic languages is done by adding “v” at beginning of the word.
    Example:
    Glass of vine. Vino v pohary.

  136. @Blizzard

    Hora means mountain. Hory is simply plural. It means many mountains, (Mountain range.)

  137. @Beckow

    Did you know that already Atilla’s father King Bela did have close friendly relationship with Rome?
    Did you know that Bela helped Rome to suppress uprisings in Spain and in France. (Whatever people were living there at that time.
    Did you know that Atilla spent most of years of his youth at Roman court and he spoke Latin fluently (naturally)?
    Did you know that king Bela had an ambassador in Rome, And Rome had an ambassador at Bela’s court.
    ……………………………………………
    Some savages? He?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  138. @Altai

    Perhaps you’re right. But what is the alternative; Continued submission to Israel by the whole world, sort of like what it is now. More and better 911 attacks?
    Speaking for myself I’d rather see the world destroyed than continue to tolerate indefinitely the aforementioned.
    But my gut tell’s me that it ain’t going to happen and this is just more “mad-dog” propaganda out of the Israelis.

  139. Beckow says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Atilas’s father was named Mundzuk, Bela means ‘white’ a very Slavic word.

    Huns were savages by any standard. Having ambassadors and sending their kids as hostages to Rome changes nothing. Ambassadors come in all shapes and forms, e.g. esteemed ambassador Nicky Varnagujaragupta ‘Halley’ was a truck stop waffle waitress and has IQ in low 80′s. Elites from every sh..thole in the Third World regularly send their kids as hostages (‘to study’) to the West. You decide if that is ‘savage’ enough.

    I wish all the best to Magyars, but there is no evidence that they are Huns, and one wonders why some of them so insistently dream about being Huns. 500 years separated Huns from Magyars, different DNA, language, historical record. They were both nomads, but there were a lot of nomadic nations. It is a rather unpleasant myth.

  140. @Beckow

    Again, I warmly recommend Heribert Illig: Wer hat an der Uhr gedreht? (only available in German), in which he makes a very strong case, based on rather convincing facts and arguments, that somehow, three centuries have been invented. I am not a medievalist and cannot give any assurances, but if that is correct, the Magyars actually might very well be direct descendants of the Huns, but of course, this will NOT make any difference to the present-day situation.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  141. @Beckow

    Huns were herders. All Atilla’s army was on horseback. There were no foot soldiers in Atilla’s army.
    Magyars were very different. Magyars had highly developed agriculture. They brought with them advanced agricultural tools. also they brought into Europe new plants and seeds and fruit trees, never seen in Europe before. There was some German writer who did write Wars of Huns. (Thick book)
    It was translated into English.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  142. @Beckow

    ” It is an interesting example of a deep, (mostly) unconscious stereotype that Western Europeans have about the east.”
    In my opinion most Dutch had no idea whatsoever about the people in E Europe.
    Thanks to the EU’s open borders this has been changed rapidly, into a negative view, criminal gangs, fraud with social security.
    About western Europe being destroyed through immigration, mainly from outside the EU, we fully agree.
    But political tensions about mass immigration are rising rapidly, so I hope the monster EU will die.
    What then will happen, no idea, some say civil war, followed by deportation.

  143. No idea what you’re writing about

  144. @Vojkan

    Thanks
    But
    ” We would probably hate each other less if there hadn’t be a Yugoslavia.”
    why all this hatred ?
    I’m from the north of the Netherlands, Fryslân, around 600 the Frysian kingdom extended from present Bretagne in France to the north of Denmark, along the coast.
    It never was subjugated by the Romans,
    But in 1345 there was the battle of Warns, remembered each year by some Frysians, most of which see it as a joke, as far as I can see.
    Anyhow, in this battle Holland, say the area N and S of Amsterdam along the coast, the dimensions of Fryslân had become smaller and smaller, beat the Frysians forever.
    Though there still are cultural differences, amazing, no hatred.
    Why still hatred about the battle of Kosovo, 1376, if I remember correctly ?
    About the British role in Yougoslavia in WWII, pure opportunism, just supporting what seemed to be the strongest faction: Tito.

  145. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    As far as I know nobody ever went to the area of origin of the Huns, so the idea that they had no agriculture, possible, but nobody knows.
    Nobody ever went, that is, nobody who wrote about it.
    Archeology also is (was) of little help.
    Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen, ‘ The world of the Huns’, 1973 Berkeley
    Their bows were famous, the mentioned writer states that around 1870 in what now is E Turkey making a good bow took ten years or more.
    I for one wonder how a nomadic people could do this then, possibly that around 1870 nomadic in E Turkey just meant summer and winter places to live.

  146. @Altai

    If the self-hating Europeans don’t reverse course soon, they’re gonna find that they have a brand new religion, like it or not: Islam.

  147. @Hans Vogel

    To complete the German children’s song to which the title may refer, “Ist es wirklich schon so spaet?”

    Translation: is it really so late already? The answe for Germany and most euro-descended nations is, YES. No time to waste.

  148. The impotence and stupidity of Brussels now is demonstrated by Brussel having started legal proceedings against both Poland and Hungary.
    Then there is Verhofstadt, begging at CNN Trump to help Brussels in the fight against Hungary.
    Hungary does not want Muslims, and threw out Soross Open Society movement.
    The latest addition to stupidity and weakness is starting a legal procedure against United Kingdom, they failed to pay some € 2.7 billion.
    Now one of the reasons UK wants to leave the EU is that they want their own courts to be supreme, not some Brussels court, thus Brussel succeeds is showing why UK wants to leave.
    On top of that, what UK ahs to pay as a farewell kiss is under negotiation, that during this negotioation UK will pay anything, what do the Brussels bureaucrats think ?
    Macron accuses the Italian government of reminding him of Mussolini.
    Merkel is losing control of het own party in Germany.
    Great indignation by many over here that members of the European parliament do not have to state what they did with their monthly allowance of € 4400 for costs.
    The end of the EU could be much nearer, some commentators write, than anyone thinks possible.

  149. Baranta says:

    My…. a lot to reflect upon.

    Magyars/Huns: Magyar is a tribe name from a tribal alliance related/affiliated with Ten Arrows (Onogur – see the Turcik number “On”, as ten, just as one indication of how outdated the academic dogma of the Hungarian language being a Finnish-related is), which has nothing to do with Slavic naming. In the Magyar legends the only relatedness to Attila’s Huns is some distant descendancy, and if anyone, it is the ancient Bulgars who could claim being Hun extract with some justification, before switching language). However, there are many more Turcik words in the Hungarian language, and contemporary description of the conquering Magyar tribes were invariably described by Arab and Byzantibe accounts puts them in the nomadic archer-horsemen. And given the persistence of the Magyar nation after 11 centuries has far exceeded whatever the Huns or Avars could have dreamt of, so the Hungarians need not seek any relatedness with the Huns, – they have far outperformed them in resilience and achievements. By the way, Bela is a Hungarian name of several Kings – the brother of Attila was named Buda/Bleda.

    Now Hungary’s treatment of its minorities – it is strange to hear the standard accusation from the successor states how intolerant and homogenizing the Magyars were, when, for instance, the Slovaks (creating their own fairy tale of history on “Greater Moravian Empire that had collapsed after the first cavalry charge of the Magyars) now force the use of slacivized names for ethnic Hungarian females, by adding “ova” endings. Or the Romanians (never mentioned before the mid-13th century, then as Wlachs) who started claiming descendancy from “Dacians”, more than a millenium after the Roman conquest. This propaganda and its Western acceptance was successful enough to set the boundaries of Hungary so that several million Magyars have found themselves outside the mutilated country, even in direct continuation such as in Slovakia, Serbia, or forming a large Hungarian-majority block in central Transylvania.

    Now back to Orban’s poking the EU in the eye: he does not want to quit the EU, but tries to revert its phylosophy, ethics and social structure to the Christian democratic traditions which made it so successful, to correct the liberal indoctrination that has driven it to the brink of its demise, to restore the concept of it being an alliance of sovereign states, instead of being ruled by pompous EU bureaucrats.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    , @Steven
  150. Baranta says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    A very elaborated reply, thank you.

  151. Steven says:
    @John Siman

    John, I’m happy for your expirience in Budapest. The city is really beautiful I think is pretty clean with full of culture. Hungary has some challenges to keep it as it is from “some insiders” don’t want
    to mention whom they’re Those emigrants would change everything.
    Next time go around the country and you’ll see how beautiful the other cities are.
    Go Tkay and have god Aszu a good halaszle.

  152. Steven says:

    Michael Kenny.
    How can you call Hungary a colonial empire? Why don’t you learn about the Hungarian history starting the late 9th setury. Arpad and the other six tribes settled down a territory what woes
    called Hungarian Kingdom until Trianon Erdely, a Delvidek what woesa Bansag like Voyvodina a Hrvath Bansag aFelvidek woes Hungary. Even Slovenia given to Hungary by Empress Maria Teresa
    When the Magyars arived there were Slavs there but Nomad people’s accupid them. Those people
    became Hungarians keeping their own culture. The Szekelys Alva is been Hungarians.
    The destroyer powers did brake up the Magyars creating Romania, from the Draks, Yugoslavia from
    Voyvodina, Horvath Bansag, Slovenia. Created Chehhoslovakia the Szlovak part from the Felvidek.
    Szovjet union get the Carpat alja By a way not Ukrain and Ukrain steel accupid part of thet old Magyar land.
    So Michael. This lands I mentioned were Magyar land Magyar orszag Hungary more then One
    Thousand year! The Magyars settle down and live there that many years.Thors people who were
    there the Slavs the Kuns and other small group peoples became Hungarians.
    If I may just one more thing about being Hungarian is the Hungarian language.
    I’m a German blooded Hungarian being in America and still Hungarian and off course being a god
    American as well.
    . So toes’re the Hungarians.

  153. Steven says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Voykan,
    Please check it out what woes the Hungarian Kingdom for Thousand years,
    Yes, there were an Oscan accusation for 150 years rare were a constant Habsburg
    interferenc but Voyvodina was Magyar until Trianon.
    Oh year old history than being Habsburg

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