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College Bubble Bursting—Left Hardest Hit. Too Bad.
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See also Brimelow In FORBES, 1993: Are Universities Obsolete?

The college bubble is bursting. Bubbles can’t last forever and in the Anglosphere this particular bubble has lasted since the nineteenth century. But universities, even the hard sciences, have now been debauched by anti-science Social Justice Warriors, as I’ve documented here, here, and here. At the same time, universities have lost their monopoly on knowledge storage, general education provision, and specialized training for high salary professions. And they just cost too much. They’re done.

John Derbyshire has pointed out that in Medieval England the monasteries were similarly all-powerful as knowledge repositories, book-producers, even homes of proto-science. And they were similarly expensive—the Reformation was in some ways a tax revolt. But a combination of competition (from the printing-press and from nascent universities) and politics (they opposed Henry VIII’s establishment of the Church of England) led to their dissolution in 1536.

So the monastic bubble burst. Now it’s time for the university bubble to burst too.

Plato founded the “Academy” in Athens in 387 BC. The ideas of the “Platonic Academy”— unfettered free inquiry in the pursuit of truth—inspired nineteenth century universities so much that they started to speak of universities as “academia.”

But a key problem with the Left is that they are, like Plato, essentialists. They assume that we live in a world of fixed forms.

Thus they demand that more “minority” or poorer pupils be allowed into “elite universities.” They fail to understand that, if this happens, “elite people” will just send their children to university somewhere else and the original university will cease to be regarded as “elite.”

They insist that more and more dropouts enter “higher education” in order to “earn more money.” But they fail to understand that this simply results in the dumbing down of higher education, the bachelor’s degree having far less value as employers lose faith in its value.

The proportion of the university-age students attending universities has risen from, for example, 13% in Britain in 1991 to 50% today, meaning that the degree is nowhere close to gold standard it once was. [“We will beat Germany!” Tory Williamson unveils plot to supercharge British education, By Macer Hall, Express, October 1, 2019]

Already, employers are increasingly setting up their own systems of assessment, sometimes giving the job to a non-graduate. They are bypassing degrees and reverting to de facto apprenticeships, where they establish their own entry requirements and then train you on the job. Surveys have found that employers regard young college graduates as “deficient in such key workplace skills as written and oral communication, critical thinking and analytical reasoning”—the very things that college was supposed to teach them.[This is the real reason why new graduates can’t get hired, By Ronald Alsop, BBC, 19th November 2015,].

There is evidence that universities, especially for Humanities students, are turning into very expensive day care centers. Young people seem to be growing more slowly. Those born circa 1998 (“iGen”, the generation after Millennials)are less likely to have ever done part-time work, less likely to drive, less likely to have had a relationship, and less likely to have had sex then the previous generation were at the same age. They see university not, in part, as a rite of passage through which you “leave home,” but as an extension of “home.”

Hence they want to feel intellectually “safe,” “protected” from ideas that upset them and to enjoy the right not to be “offended.”

The faculty increasingly agree—and, even if they don’t, they censor their teaching accordingly, to avoid bad student reports and their “Adjunct” contract not being renewed [iGen: Why Today’s Super-Connected Kids Are Growing Up Less Rebellious, More Tolerant, Less Happy—and Completely Unprepared for Adulthood—and What That Means for the Rest of Us, by Jennifer Twenge, 2017].

The plain fact is that many high school students would be better off training as an electrician, where there are many jobs available, than saddling themselves with huge student debt to obtain a science degree from a mediocre university.

And it is simply frivolous to study for a Humanities degree—except for the fact that benighted employers still require a college degree. (For example, it’s very difficult to become a U.S. Army officer without one).

But more and more companies that used to require a degree for certain administrative jobs no longer require one, including Whole Foods and Starbucks. [The Higher Education Bubble is Bursting, Investors Business Daily, September 7, 2018]

Already the massive expansion in universities since the 1960s is contracting. Smaller colleges are simply closing their doors, unable to fill their places and thus unable to stay afloat [Expert predicts 25 percent of colleges will “fail” over next two decades, By Jennifer Kabbany, College Fix, September 2, 2019].

In addition, of course, universities have been taken over by the Left. In Britain in 1964, 55% of academics were “Left wing.” This has now risen to 80%, even higher in Humanities subjects. But half of the British public identify as “right wing” compared to less than 12% of academics—despite roughly half of the most intelligent 5% of the population being “right wing” [Lackademia, By Noah Carl, Adam Smith Institute, 2016]

As a result, the public perception is that that academics are biased, their research is not to be trusted, and they shouldn’t be funded by taxpayer money or be permitted charity status. In 2006, 41% of Americans had “a lot of confidence in higher education.” But by 2017 this was down to 14% [(Dis)trust in Science, By Gleb Tsipursky, July 5, 2018, Scientific American].

“Academic mobbing”—in which fanatical Leftist academics destroy colleagues whose research challenges Leftist dogmas—inevitably further undermines confidence. Thus earlier this year, Cambridge University, a highly prestigious institution, fired Dr. Noah Carl because the PC Enforcers objected to his research, which related to race, and to those with whom he’d collaborated to do his research [Why I’m fighting back against the academic mob killing free speeches (sic.) on our campuses, By Jack Ryan and Noah Carl, Mail Online, September 29, 2019].

This also means that universities can be regarded as the ideological enemies of conservative governments. Eventually such governments might begin to ask—apart, that is, from their stupidity and cowardice—why not simply abolish universities’ tax breaks and partial public funding and let them sink or swim?

And then there’s the technology-driven competition these increasingly woke and expensive universities must face. This was predicted by British economist Sir Douglas Hague (1926-2015) in an amazingly prescient 1991 paper Beyond Universities: A New Republic of the Intellect [PDF]. (See Peter Brimelow’s 1993 Forbes Magazine interview with Hague.)

Hague pointed out that universities essentially had a monopoly: students attended university for the purposes of education and attendant kudos (Humanities), training (Sciences and Law) and a combination of the two (Social Science).

But technology means that universities were increasingly redundant. Hague predicted that it would be increasingly easy to “educate yourself” in any subject.

In addition, what Hague called the “freelance fringe” of academia—who would hang around university towns and do occasional university tutoring in addition to other work, such as journalism—have become increasingly prominent (more so now as a result of the internet). Young people, many of them university students, are increasingly aware of Political Correctness at their universities So they turn to quasi-academic, often YouTube personalities who become their de facto teachers—in a sense, academic buskers—and help to fund these people to be independent researchers, while also learning from them.

Current examples: The Public Space, The Jolly Heretic, Stefan Molyneux.

Due to this competition, Hague expected non-science subjects, in particular, to contract. As with any bubble, the central issue is confidence. Once key people, often those who are more intelligent or perceptive, start to lose confidence, then their lack of confidence is contagious.

It is probable that this very process is occurring, consistent with media speculation on the Higher Ed bubble bursting, right now.

In Britain, for example, as Oxford and Cambridge become increasingly woke and socially engineered [Oxford University agrees to let in disadvantaged students with lower grades, By Gabriela Swerling, Telegraph, May 21, 2019], British pupils from elite backgrounds are increasingly going to colleges abroad, especially in the U.S.A. Between 2013 and 2017, British applications to U.S. colleges increased by 31%. In 2016, half of students at two leading “public schools” (prestigious private schools in British English) applied to an American university and almost half of these applicants ended up going to one [Why British students are heading to America for an elite education, By Helen Kirwan-Taylor, Telegraph, September 27, 2017].

Additionally, British students are rejecting woke and expensive U.K. universities for institutions in mainland Europe, including in Eastern Europe, where much teaching is in English and fees are low [Who needs Oxbridge? Meet the British students headed for Europe, By Rosie Ifould, Guardian, October 3, 2015].

Interestingly, this is what happened when, between 1662 and 1871, you had to be Anglican to attend English universities. As a result, Catholics sent their children abroad, and Non-Conformists set up their own institutions or sent their children to Scotland.

And if British students don’t want to attend U.K. universities, why should non-EU postgrads who are British higher education’s cash cow continue to pay their incredible stratospheric fees? [British universities are whipping up a mad boom that’s bound to go bust, By Mary Dejevsky, Spectator, May 14, 2016].

The college bubble is bursting—and the Left is about to lose one of its key advantages in Anglosphere politics.

Lance Welton [email him] is the pen name of a freelance journalist living in New York.

(Republished from VDare by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Economics, Ideology • Tags: Academia, Political Correctness 
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  1. Good article.

    These institutions have outlived their usefulness–all that remains is the zombies screaming in the hallways.

    (My alma mater with the insane endowment still calls me asking for money–They must think their graduates are _really_ stupid!)

  2. Truth3 says:

    A College Degree was not a hard and fast requirement for at least 95% of jobs in the 1960’s.

    Standardized College Entrance Tests (ACT, SAT) scores starting in the late 1970’s became an objective measure of a student’s capability.

    HR Managers in the late 1980’s became the gatekeepers extraordinaire into many corporate postings. The fact that interviews became less of ‘what you know’ and more ‘what school you went to’ corrupted the merit factor in hiring.

    The resulting pressure on students to ‘get the right degree from the right school’ was enough to empower University Deans seeking to improve their economics to act as ‘college mafia’ dons, with the attendant skyrocketing of college costs… coupled with the dumbing down to allow more minorities to ‘pass’, further distanced college education status from knowledge and merit to properly work.

    What really caused all this?

    Money as the decision factor that trumped all others.

  3. unit472 says:

    I agree college has become far too expensive. In fact, parents would be well advised to spend their education dollars earlier on private high schools and or tutors to make sure their kids master algebra, geometry and a basic science like chemistry. I understand that is more or less how it works in Japan. Students admitted to University there are so well prepared they can basically coast to their degree.

    Its a pity the NYT , WaPo and magazines like the Economist have gone full PC/Woke but reading such publications does increase one’s vocabulary and writing skills. R. Emmett Tyrrell’s American Spectator did more to increase my vocabulary than all the English Lit classes I took in high school so parents might want to subscribe to more magazines and less Netflix or Call of Duty video games and get their kids to read them. There are real wars and power struggles going on in the world. I could tell you how many Americans were killed and wounded each week in Vietnam and what the situation was along the Suez Canal and Golan Heights because I was nearing draft age and it mattered to me personally.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  4. Yep. In the US, intellectual life has always been dominated by the Yankees [1], informally known as “New Englanders”, the region north of NYC from which the territory now practicing Yankee sociology was settled. The rest of the US has been preoccupied with business, agriculture of various sorts, and regarded intellectual pursuits as a leisure time activity for the rich and foolish. In New England’s early days, theology was the dominant intellectual pursuit, and was universally considered critical for the survival of humanity in general and the soul of the individual human.
    And of course it was. In New England’s climate, social unity (although not cohesion) was essential for survival. Productive work and lack of civil strife gave at first survival, then prosperity. The intellectual effort put into theology was also applied to the stewardship of physical reality, and enabled a rural population to farm highly marginal land, implying a population density that today seems astonishingly high for the tool set used.
    This carried over past the New England breakout to its West (see map, [1]) into its present territory.

    However, Yankees have several flaws [2]. One is a tendency to see things as absolute good or absolute evil. This helped maintain social unity in a population of strong willed and highly independent people (who individually believe they are acting for their own best interest in accordance with truth), but has led to excesses: Salem Witch trials, Whig efforts to apply Yankee levels of organization to the other sociological regions of the US, the emergence of Unitarian Universalism, the Civil War (0.6 million troop deaths to end legally sanctioned slavery 3 decades early), and (to skip a few other items) the current support of “no races” and “no borders”. The same belief that gave (and to an extent still gives) a unified Yankee society has transmogrified into the sin of overwhelming intellectual pride. You can’t talk to these guys — they don’t listen [3]. They’ve thought things through, discussed them thoroughly and are sure they are right. Why should they listen to people who have not been through this process?

    So new they’ve failed again. Right up there with the dictator from Bananas:

    Education is good, so anything that pays for education is good, and anyway, sex work is empowering:
    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-20/these-are-top-colleges-sugar-babies

    So that’s it for the Yankees and Yankeedom [1]. They’ve been done in by their own belief in universalism backed by the full weight of their social organization. The NYC / urban area is losing its only ally other than the Left Coast [1], which has its own troubles. Good bye, good luck, and may you someday develop a bit of humility towards the other American sociologies.

    From a broader perspective, half the current US political establishment’s coalition is in process of failing. Without the Yankees acting as intellectual enforcers, the entire Postmodernist / SJW movement becomes a mob of aggressive foreigners pretending to be Americans but not a part of any of the American constituent sociologies. They have only the NYC (“New Netherland” on the map”) led coalition of cities. Once their utility as a source of political power is gone and they no longer generate tax income, NYC & urban coalition will sell them to whoever is buying (or give them away and pretend innocence), and never think twice.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] http://www.colinwoodard.com/files/ColinWoodard_AmericanNations_map.pdf

    2] So do Southerners, but they walk on their flaws. (accent joke)

    3] Science fiction setting:
    A: Look. An old Imperial AI computer! I wonder what kind it is?
    B: Philosopher machine
    A: How can you tell so quickly?
    B: It has output peripherals, but no input.

  5. Despite your “frivolous” description of the Humanities, Hague gets it right: only the Humanities provide EDUCATION, properly so called (as Plato and Aquinas would have agreed); the rest provide TRAINING, a kind of high-IQ barber college.

    Whatever the value of various “conservative” nostrums regarding What When Wrong, (Jews, Masons, the Enlightenment, Communism, etc.) the root cause of the modern crisis is the ignoring and forgetting of this fact.

  6. Emslander says:

    But why would Brits come to US Universities? This is where the rot started and is most advanced. I guess it’s like all the Americans we’ve known who brag about their year at Oxford. To a Brit parent Berkeley just sounds exotic and learned. To US graduates it’s another dysfunctional shadow of past quality.

  7. lysias says:

    The education in the Greek and Roman classics that was provided to me by my Jesuit high school, Princeton, Oxford, and Harvard has certainly enabled me to think.

    The dissolution of the monasteries in England was a tragedy. Institutions, however corrupt, whose reason for being was providing charitable works for the general population, were privatized, and went into the hands of the monarch, the nobles, and the gentry. It was indeed a taxpayers’ revolt, and it had much the same disastrous results as privatization and taxpayers’ revolts have today.

  8. I once saw a Help Wanted ad that read, “Bachelor’s degree required. Some heavy lifting involved.”. I wonder how common such an ad has become.

    • LOL: John Regan
    • Replies: @Haha
  9. @Truth3

    Pretty sure it was the result of making hiring exams by companies illegal that caused all this.

    Super high chance of that move being deliberate and calculated.

    Which is why I hate affirmative action with a passion.

    It is all related.

    • Agree: Rich, Hail, Kolya Krassotkin
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    , @Denis
  10. jim jones says:
    @Emslander

    A British education is still the gold standard for most of the World, for how much longer I do not know.

    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
  11. Miggle says:

    But a key problem with the Left is that they are, like Plato, essentialists. They assume that we live in a world of fixed forms.

    But a key problem with your article is your simplistic notion of a Left-Right spectrum.

    Where you have written “the Left” you needed to write, “the idle rich”. That’s who they are. We are back in the mid-19th century, when society was divided between the super-rich who lived in mansions and the super-poor who camped on the streets. That is the USA today. That society gave rise to the Communist Manifesto.

    Your “anti-science Social Justice Warriors” are not the Left. They are, as I said the idle rich. Who else would they be? (Not super-rich, perhaps, but comfortable enough, having nothing of importance before them, so needing to invent something.) Are they concerned about those living on the streets? Is that what they are lobbying about? Is that what they destroy careers for? No.

    I have a copy (can’t find it now) of a later 19th-century edition (in reprint) of the Communist Manifesto, with an introduction by Engels.

    Engels in his introduction explains why they were unable to call their work the Socialist Manifesto. The reason was that by about 1840 the meaning of “socialism” had degenerated. As I say, the copy is not to hand, but one phrase he used (in translation) stands out on my memory. The “socialists” of the era were in reality multifarious social quacks. They were not concerned about the plight of the workers, which is what the Manifesto is all about. A different word was needed.

    The same applies today to the SJWs campaigning for “social progress”. They are not campaigning for those sleeping on the streets of the cities of California. They are not building affordable housing. They are not calling for boycott of Walmart. Their full weight goes in support of the super-sensitive who may be offended by the objective topics and words of the non-compliant academics. Heartlessly, they destroy careers for nothing.

    That is not the Left. The SJWs, better called the SJQs, the Social Justice Quacks, are of the Right. If you want to use the simplistic notion of a spectrum.

  12. As usual, this kind of article misses the sociological reality of modern academia. It isn’t a superficial tumor that can be ‘cut out’ to reveal the ‘real economy’ beneath – modern academia is part of a network that transcends universities and encompasses vast number of ‘professionals’ involved in risk reduction, ass covering, assessment (in education, social services, human resources, health, military). And it’s not as if the ‘private’ sector (for what that denomination is worth when it comes to giant TNC’s) lacks its legions of middle managers, jargon generators and ass-coverers. And yes, many people who do these kind of jobs live in the South and voted for Trump.

    This is what contemporary ‘advanced’ capitalism IS, not a distortion of it! If you start cutting at it, you’ll be tearing out a huge chunk of the ‘middle class’. And what do you expect them to do? Carpentry? I’m not sure what the answer is but obviously Andrew Yang at least has been thinking about it.

    • Replies: @Denis
  13. @Justvisiting

    My alma mater is Penn State, and most of its alumni are indeed educated idiots reliving their glory days at the Cathedral of Beaver Stadium. I look forward to the day the bubble bursts there Used to be a good, solid school. Now it’s run by a bunch of tenured SJWs in need of unemployment.

    • Agree: Bill
    • Replies: @byrresheim
    , @follyofwar
  14. One thing that will make university bubble burst here in the states is that H1 visas holders are increasingly staffing the STEM jobs. Why go into debt for a job you won’t ever get?

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @teo toon
  15. anon[299] • Disclaimer says:
    @jim jones

    I would have thought Russian, or German.

    • Agree: byrresheim
  16. Ruprecht says:

    It is through the university that the far left has become the new political establishment. Once the universities became a one-party state after the 1960s so too did Western Civilization become a one party state.

    The universities produce our bureaucrats, our schoolteachers, our journalists, our lawyers, our judges, our artists and entertainers. This is where the true power of the modern state lies. This is why it doesn’t matter whom you vote for.

    Politicians and parties come and go. The true power is un-retractable.

    This is the exact opposite of Plato’s vision of an arena for the free and open exchange of ideas.

    For this reason we should hope that the author’s sentiments will come to be. Defunding the universities would be a good first step towards weakening the one-party state.

  17. @James J. O'Meara

    Nah, you’re wrong, James. The study of engineering and the sciences are not “training”. Perhaps you never took a “weed-out” physics or fluid dynamics class. The students would certainly LIKE it to be done as training, being spoon-fed formulas and rubrics (“rubrics” is the new big thing), but the amount of serious thinking/contemplating and visualization needed to do well is at a level that you coffee-shop-barist majors can’t come close to.

    Actually, I wrote that last part just as an insult – I really think there IS a place for the humanities, but not for anything near 50% of the US population, attending for 4-6 years while accumulating 50 Large in debt guaranteed by the American taxpayer.

  18. @Astuteobservor II

    “Pretty sure it was the result of making hiring exams by companies illegal that caused all this.”

    Absolutely correct. And they did this because of disparate impact. Impartial tests were just too revealing of essential differences. Idiology [sic] trumps reality.

    • Replies: @Kolya Krassotkin
  19. Teachers spoon feed students a textbook. Now you can get books online free and read them yourself. Many students use the internet to cheat with and some use it to grow with. There is a greater divide now. Some students are super smart, well educated and informed, and then you have a lot of dumb shallow trolls, brainwashed to repeat what they are told, like the climate change children. You nailed it on the shallow snowflake generation. A product of the no fail education system. Because failing would hurt their extremely fragile self esteem. So, illiterates were given High School diplomas. Some sued the schools. There is a divide. Pre internet scholarship is now considered shallow. Many pre internet books with tiny bibliographies, would not pass muster in High School. A good post internet book is much more noted with a much larger bibliography. Same with degrees. Many pre internet degrees as less valuable than a post internet degree, if they did not cheat. Cheaters are exposed in any interview. Since the internet the old lies and propaganda of the left is completely exposed and worthless. No one in their right mind would spend a dime for a college class still spewing out the old lies.

  20. I’ve got to assume now that this Lance Welton is a British guy, though the short bio. says “a freelance journalist living in New York.” It’s just that all the numbers and much of the other examples he gives are for the UK. Is that from Mr. Brimelow’s 1993 Forbes article that VDare republished today? (Mr. Brimelow wrote his “Are Universities Necessary?” without even taking the internet into account (for obvious reasons – it was 1993).

    That aside, I agree with the gist of this (will read Peter Brimelow’s old article later today), though I think the financial aspect of the whole “University Bubble” is more important, at least in America.. Writer Steve Penfield, here on the unz blog, published
    “Student Debt Cancellation: A Good Idea and a Political Hoax”
    about a week back. It is VERY comprehensive with discussion of every aspect of the finance of current-day American higher education. The only thing I don’t agree with is his conclusion! I recommend the reading of Penfield’s long article nonetheless.

    One could do worse than read Peak Stupidity on the University Bubble. Some short posts (in order) on the subject are:

    University Bubble 101,
    University Bubble 99 – Remedial Global Financial Stupidity at the U,
    University Bubble 99 – Remedial GFS at the U – Part 2,
    University Bubble 99 – Remedial GFS at the U – Part 3, and
    University Bubble 99 – Part 4 (Conclusion, it’s not a PERFECT STORM),

  21. I never made it clear that I also think the University system as it functions today is obsolete. There are better ways. However, the entrenched interests, bureaucracy and alumni will fight hard to keep the status quo. That is, until the financial stupidity that supports the whole thing stops. That will happen when more and more parents realize what a boondoggle it is that they are being told to sign on the line for.

    In the meantime, new buildings go up, more Deans of Diversity are hired in, and freshman class size is increased every year. Watch out, if you live nearby – it’s gonna pop hard!

  22. @jim jones

    The anglophone part of the world.
    And, as another commenter wrote, the US is where the rot set in after the war.

  23. @Achmed E. Newman

    Humanities would be a lot better for students if it didn’t teach them to be inhuman.

    Objective example: NASA fellowship, long time ago. We had humanities types in the group that decided, all on their own, to have a “humanities party” separate from all the non-humanities types. Hard to interpret that as anything except snobbery which, while human, isn’t thought of as one of the virtues supposedly taught by the humanities.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Agree: Poupon Marx
    • Replies: @Alfa158
    , @Poupon Marx
    , @El Dato
  24. Republic says:

    That is excellent news as many reports predict that by the mid 2020s, at least half of all colleges will close.

  25. @Old and grumpy

    a bunch of tenured SJWs in need of unemployment.

    Beautifully put, sir.
    Wish I had come up with that one myself.

  26. @Emslander

    But why would Brits come to US Universities?

    Because 90% of them are too lazy to learn a foreign language.

  27. Fox says:

    That article needed to be written, as the concept of a University has been in dissolution for a long time, in my opinion beginning in the 1960s in earnest. That was the time of student revolts, directly after the soul-destroying war, when, materially it was possible to live quite free of care, and at the same time a sense of meaninglessness was persistently imbuing everything in life. The authority of academic teachers in their subject was attacked by a vociferous minority of students who ostensibly were there to exercise and hone their intellectual faculties, yet did not just not attend a lecture, they prevented it altogether. The rejection of authority of knowledge (a professor simply knows a lot more about the subject than students) spread outside of the universities. And it was the Left clamoring for lowering of admission standards with the results in all their twisted interconnectedness as we see them today. Admitting theoretically everyone into university when 100 years ago perhaps 5 % of the population could meet the intellectual standards for it must lead to an internal error. The standards and rigor must fall, an attitude of flippancy in teaching will follow and the pursuit of knowledge will become trivialized and doubtful. The intellectual output of universities has not been impressive for decades, and the intermediate use of them as tax-funded basic research institutions for the benefit of industry is petering out. Professors are now gladly willing to sign petitions against their colleagues who don’t follow the latest path of required ideological interest and insight (I am thinking of Richard Duchesne or Kevin MacDonald).
    The concept of Safe Spaces must be an embarrassment for the more evolved and intelligent students. Doubt is growing, the foundations of the concept of a university as an institution of higher education and preparation for the future are crumbling. There is not just one thing wrong with this concept, many things are wrong.
    At the same time there is a mad building boom at universities. Where’s all the money coming from?

  28. @Old and grumpy

    Same here. I’m a grad of PA’s State University System (formerly State Teachers Colleges). They are located all over the state and are far too numerous to remain viable. They are all begging for any warm bodies to go there, and I don’t think they turn any applicant down. Instead of shutting some down, which will happen one day regardless, they keep increasing tuition and fees, and pleading to the taxpayers for more money every year. Problem is, like any overgown government institution, they still have way too much power in Harrisburg.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  29. @Truth3

    Money as the decision factor that trumped all others.

    It was the decisive driver, agreed.

    An enabler was the Uniterian Universalist (UU) conviction that all people would eventually be saved by God, and the New England strong influence or dominance in the universities. This enabled the universities to tell themselves that all applicants were essentially equal (since they would all be saved), and that lowering standards and difficulty was really a moral act, since more students would be gain the advantages of certification. Granted, there would be losses also, but treating students more the way God treated everybody was thought to be more important than the losses. It’ has the same structure as the open borders idea.

    This kind of thinking is described as “doing well by doing good”.

    I once had an Anabaptist (Not Unitarian Universalist, but still radical Protestant) professor tell me that the Aztec society should have been preserved. he was unable to discuss the subject coherently, but his general statements were that, since everybody would eventually be saved by God, it is best to preserve them in the secular world as well.

    I can see it now: UU is saved, gets to Heaven, and is mobbed and beaten half to death by people who didn’t have the UU’s prosperity while they were alive.
    Just think, if only everybody had been given goodies enough to equalize things, the UU wouldn’t have been beaten!!
    Strange idea, but the UUs & radical Protestants and more or less secular Yankees are acting as if they fear this scenario above all else. Heck, they might be severely beaten every day of eternity if they can’t prove a good faith effort to protect foreigners during their life here in the secular world! What could possibly be more important than avoiding that?

    Counterinsurgency

  30. Rich says:

    I did both, went to College, and worked as an apprentice. College was interesting, even back in the 80s I found myself constantly arguing with liberal professors in the humanities classes I was forced to take. But in my apprenticeship. for which no college was required, I earned a living and learned about reality. 13% is too many going to college, I’d whittle it down to 5% and send the rest to apprenticeships.

  31. @Miggle

    Excellent point, Mig. (I already used up my ‘Agree’ button.)

  32. ruralguy says:

    Most kids go to college because they are very interested in the college social experience and because they perceive that their friends and family will look down upon them, if they did not go to college.

    Whenever I contract plumbing, electrical, or any trade work, I rarely see young people doing the hard physical work. The Tradesmen always tell me that they offer young people high pay, but they say the young people will not do the work because it is demeaning. The Tradesmen also tell me that when they do hire someone young, they are not reliable nor hard working. Rightly or wrongly, I think our media or culture has indoctrinated people to look down upon trades work, factory work, farm work, and other low-skilled work. It’s a shame, because young people who never experience hard work end up too soft.

    • Replies: @Achilles Wannabe
  33. macilrae says:

    An old friend, now gone, was professor of a renowned department in one of the top London University colleges. The work they did was mathematical and applied to the management of finance. He told me that he was constantly asked why he had no black students in his graduate courses and his resolute but politically unacceptable reply was “I don’t look at their skin colour – I only look at what they show me they are capable of doing.” His department had devised its own very demanding aptitude test because he was so shocked at the low standard of the hundred or so applicants for a single place.

    One of his comments to me was that the UK Advanced Level examination (student age 18) in pure mathematics of today (say 2000) was almost on a level with the Ordinary Level one (student age 16) of the 1950s, which he and I took.

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @Flint Clint
  34. Alfa158 says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    They might have decided to have a humanities only party because the science people were conducting conversations that were way over their heads . They were more comfortable in a social situation where a lot of the conversations would not be incomprehensible to them.

  35. @Achmed E. Newman

    I knew a guy who had a classics degree in Shakespearian literature and of that period. A very clear thinking guy, who had a roofing job to pay the bills. Always had a good looking girl on his arm. He was completely bald at 28, and wore it like he was proud.

    I asked him how did everything fit in. He said he enjoyed the work, being outdoors, making something, but in his spare time, he wrote poetry and immersion in his love of the period-and all-literature. Only 1 of 50, optimistically, current students are smart enough to follow this path. Or too lazy or delusional.

    Problem: they can’t think for themselves and come up with solutions from within.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  36. @Counterinsurgency

    This is compensation for the feelings of inferiority and deficit of cognition and character. Gloming together for succor and balmy salve to cover the psychological wounds of the lame members of the herd. As a sheep dog, I would turn a deaf ear to the wolves running down these sheeple.

  37. Haha says:
    @Twodees Partain

    The requirement of bachelor’s degree was no doubt to ensure that the prospective heavy lifter had a fair chance of being able to read packaging labels on the heavy objects being worked with since, alas, high school and community college diplomas confer no such guarantee. In the not too distant future Ph.D.’s will be the minimum requirement for tenured janitorial positions, to ensure that labels such as “toxic” and “for toilet bowls only” can be read and understood.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  38. @Republic

    More, more! No more tax support or public and pubic funding.

  39. … why should non-EU postgrads who are British higher education’s cash cow continue to pay their incredible stratospheric fees?

    Lulz … the fees (EU Resident) for my UK law degree were a fraction of the fees for my US MBA (US Resident at the time). The academic standards in the UK (at least a decade ago) were considerably more demanding than those in the US a couple decades ago. The cultural rot in UK universities was preceded by that in US schools by a couple decades.

    If UK students are looking to the US, it’s because they want to be in a more dynamic market or to go to a bigger party-school environment (given the nightly town-centre slut-walks one sees pictured in the tabloids, I would posit it is more likely the latter).

  40. Denis says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Hiring exams by companies still exist in some cases, in the form of personality tests. However, those companies would be much better off if they were allowed to test mathematical and reading ability, as this would weed out a large number of applicants. It would be better for applicants too, including those who don’t make it, since at least they wouldn’t have to pay 10s of thousands of dollars for the chance to do menial work.

  41. Denis says:
    @blank-misgivings

    Completely correct. It’s not exactly a bad deal for large companies if an undergraduate university education is the norm. What do they lose, after all? It’s not as if they are supporting their applicants’ education, as they would have to do with a high school graduate who would rightly expect to receive on-the-job training and perhaps a costly certification. Besides, university education saddles prospective candidates with debt, meaning that they are more likely to accept whatever position they find, even if it is very poorly paid.

  42. Richard P says:
    @Fox

    The concept of Safe Spaces must be an embarrassment for the more evolved and intelligent students.

    I occasionally spend time on the University of Colorado’s campus in Boulder. There are signs for “Safe Spaces” nearly everywhere and it’s rather amusing.

    But what isn’t amusing is how our country has become engulfed by societal decay and how our educational institutions have become overrun by cultural Marxism.

    It’s a sad day to be an American.

  43. Haha says:

    I think the STEM-focussed universities will not go pop, nor should they. STEM-focus, BTW, I arbitrarily define as 70-80% STEM and 20-30% social “sciences” and liberal arts/humanities. What most definitely needs to go pop are courses in various kind of “studies”, such as gender studies. I wouldn’t go to a dentist who trained mainly on the internet (fount of wisdom and knowledge though it is claimed to be), nor would I hire an engineer with such training. But I would have no objection to being driven by a taxi driver who majored in literature or anthropology. I have had pizzas delivered by majors in economics, with no adverse consequences to the quality of the pizza, though I was left wondering why anyone would spend thousand of borrowed dollars to end up delivering pizzas or driving taxis.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  44. @James J. O'Meara

    only the Humanities provide EDUCATION, properly so called (as Plato and Aquinas would have agreed); the rest provide TRAINING, a kind of high-IQ barber college.

    Do the forensic experiment: get two roughly equal in decent IQ metric (BS, of course, but at least some criterion) students and teach them the course in history, or comparative politics to one student, and Dynamics or Differential Equations to the other. After that remove professors teaching them and offer students to autonomously study each-others discipline. See the result. As per “humanities” in general–in the West it is long ago stopped being education and turned into indoctrination. I know a number of engineers, fundamental scientists and industrial managers who are extremely well read and would have no problems in obtaining graduate or post-graduate degree in “humanities”. I never encounter a single humanities “educated” graduate or post-graduate who knows how to write manufacturing plan for trailing edge of the wing for aircraft or have a faintest idea on testing procedures (including metrology part) for complex structures. It is, I think, not accidental that late Bea Arthur in The History Of The World, Part 1, calls Mel Brook’s character (a Stand-Up Philosopher) a Bullshitter. In conclusion: the real schooling in logic, good level reasoning, ability to generalize and systematize comes not from reading Plato or Tomas Aquinas, but from rigorous training in mathematical logic , both through Algebra and Geometry with Trigonometry, and Physics at the early school age.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  45. @James J. O'Meara

    Humanities provide EDUCATION, properly so called (as Plato and Aquinas would have agreed); the rest provide TRAINING, a kind of high-IQ barber college.

    That is the usual belief in the humanities, true enough. The “humanities” used to becalled “the liberal arts”, and taught the reading and writing and rhetoric (“3 Rs”) needed to participate in government and interact with the upper (ruling) classes. This was thought to make one free, and also had something to do with books, hence “liberal” arts. [1].

    You might find it interesting to see Adler’s comments on the subject of scientific knowledge [2]. Additionally, if you want to know what mathematics is about at root, you might get a copy of Adler’s “The New Mathematiccs_, a 1960s work that tried to teach real basic mathematics on an elementary school level. Didn’t work, but the book is good.

    The basic problem with the humanities is that the universe doesn’t really work the same way that human language (any language) does. Nor do human games, nor human activities, nor those of animals. If you want to have prediction level of knowledge about humans and their interactions with the real world, you need to have mathematics — something different from human language. Took me years to figure that out, took millennia from first rule of thumb surveying rules to Galileo’s description of falling bodies using algebra.

    So I’m essentially left with something told me by another student at an engineering school: Humanities is about sounding good (e.g. participation in government). Science and engineering are about telling the truth. If you want to see what that really means, follow the references.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lēodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal
    Liber also means “scroll or codex” in Latin, hence the word Library. Suggests some link between literacy/knowledge and ability to participate in society.

    See also:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber

    • Replies: @Logan
  46. Rosie says:
    @Old and grumpy

    One thing that will make university bubble burst here in the states is that H1 visas holders are increasingly staffing the STEM jobs. Why go into debt for a job you won’t ever get?

    And then the fact that native students don’t get STEM degrees will be used as evidence that we “need” immigrants, when in fact our youth would get STEM degrees but for the immigrants!

    In any event, these universities will not fail if they are allowed to import foreign students from the growing global middle class, and that is what they will do if they are allowed any influence over immigration policy.

  47. Alfred says:
    @Justvisiting

    My alma mater in London kept on sending me begging letters. I was in Australia. Eventually, I phoned them up and told them that they were wasting their time on me. A Hong Kong class mate of mine was a billionaire many times over. He was chairman of the second most valuable property company in the world. They didn’t know. They emailed me to say the the dean will be contacting him in person. 🙂

    Much earlier, I was IT manager of the number one business school in Europe according to the Financial Times “European Business School Rankings 2018” (full time MBA).

    Their most critical application was for handling students who had left and sending out begging letters. They got a large source of their funding that way. Their database system in shambles. I sorted it out.

    When all started running smoothly, the professors wanted to take back control of the department so I left. I had at least 5 meetings with professors during my time there where they recommended different programming languages or systems that we should use. None of them had ever written a line of code.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    , @Alden
  48. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    Since math is now being declared racist and gender studies grads are having getting jobs, maybe we should take Groucho Marx’s advice and close the college classrooms to save money to play football?

    From the excellent Marx Brothers movie, “Horse Feathers.”

  49. anonymous[299] • Disclaimer says:
    @Poupon Marx

    Always had a good looking girl on his arm.

    Was she his equal intellectually and in terms of psycho-social integration?
    If so, where did he find all these “good looking girls” that were also well integrated?

  50. Muggles says:

    While there are numerous causes for the explosion of useless and even harmful college level institutional growth and expansion, one major factor is that they are largely created by socialist style planning from above.

    It has been politically popular (and easy) for state legislatures and the federal educational subsidy bureaucracy to increase funding for both the institutions (often labeled “research” grants) and the students themselves. The students are given easy money loans on the thinnest of pretexts with only some willing institution (to take their money) as a barrier to getting the money.

    So, work, military or “college student” for you after high school? Why not party hearty for a few years and maybe even end up with a very expensive and useless degree in some soft subject? Who wants to be a teacher or gym coach? Of course those loans now have to be repaid and special rules exist for collecting these come hell or high water. No tax refunds for you, ever! No bankruptcy either. But you can do semi slave labor for some government do-good agency (Peace Corp, Indian reservation teacher, etc.) and some of that will disappear. Otherwise, those bloated “universities” get your loan money (and taxpayer funding, unlimited) and you get the debt.

    Colleges have “no skin in the game” so admit anyone. Affirmative action ensures that even the dumbest non white applicant can get in. So it’s free money for them, not the student. And today’s Dems want to expand that option to illegal aliens and anyone who can breathe.

    Karl Marx & Co. would be proud. Lemonade and gum drops for the masses…

  51. BiggDee55 says:

    You lost me after that ridiculous comparison in the second paragraph. Really? Here I am wondering who will pick up the replacement pen after Brimelow, Sailor, Derbyshire, et al. empty their ink wells. With that dull rapier and lack of untrenchant troping, we’ll await .

  52. @Haha

    I think the STEM-focussed universities will not go pop, nor should they.

    They will not, agree, but due to steady decline of the STEM education in the West in schools, requirements for STEM universities may get lower even more.

    What most definitely needs to go pop are courses in various kind of “studies”, such as gender studies.

    Same with journalism (a glorified degree in language), the way history is taught in the US is altogether the case of myopia, same goes for a host of other so called “studies” and subjects such as political pseudo-science. The world became so complex that “philosophers” simply have no required cognitive faculties and instrumentation allowing them to be correct even once in a long while. Take a look at US field of “geopolitics” which, through its academe, produced in the last 30 years and incredible body of 8utter BS, which does not pass even most lax academic smell test. No wonder the country (the US) is in such a shape. I am not talking about EU here–that is a complete basket case.

    • Replies: @PetrOldSack
  53. @Truth3

    What really caused all this?

    Griggs v. Duke Power, 401 U.S. 424 (1970) had a great deal to do with employers abandoning internal testing as a basis for hiring or promotion.

    • Replies: @TheJester
  54. Logan says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    The “humanities” used to be called “the liberal arts”

    Correct. But I think you left the most important part in a footnote. “from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman”

    The liberal arts were those a free man needed to center himself properly so as to become a full participant in civil society. IOW, a ruler. Not a tyrant, but a man who knew how to persuade other free men to follow him, and most critically a man who knew enough about what is valuable in life to lead them in a proper direction.

    This is NOT what the liberal arts presently are. In fact, the “liberal arts” of today deny that actual values do or can exist. All that exists is power relationships between groups and the resulting oppression, since communication is itself an exercise in power and exclusion. One doesn’t need to persuade others, just force them. In fact persuasion is not really possible. And values as such are also an illusion.

    That these positions are entirely self-contradictory is beside the point. They believe them, and they gleefully use their power to destroy those who challenge them.

    The “liberal arts” of today are thus in a very real sense the inverse of what they were in classical, medieval and early modern times.

    • Agree: Counterinsurgency
    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  55. Alfred says:
    @macilrae

    the UK Advanced Level examination (student age 18) in pure mathematics of today (say 2000) was almost on a level with the Ordinary Level one (student age 16) of the 1950s

    This is quite true. A UK student of today would not be able to understand the questions in an A’level pure math paper of 1968 – let alone answer them.

    One additional twist to the disaster that is the educational system of the UK is that there are different examination boards.

    Examination boards in the United Kingdom

    In order to attract schools to use their own papers, these boards started competing by making their papers easier. Schools were attracted to boards that set the easiest papers.

    In my opinion, the educational system of the UK is totally screwed up. The elite universities are attractive to students because of the networking opportunities. Their “Foreign Office” will only ever employ kids from certain institutions. Everyone knows which colleges are harvested by MI6 and so on.

  56. In Britain, for example, as Oxford and Cambridge become increasingly woke and socially engineered [Oxford University agrees to let in disadvantaged students with lower grades, By Gabriela Swerling, Telegraph, May 21, 2019], British pupils from elite backgrounds are increasingly going to colleges abroad, especially in the U.S.A. Between 2013 and 2017, British applications to U.S. colleges increased by 31%. In 2016, half of students at two leading “public schools” (prestigious private schools in British English) applied to an American university and almost half of these applicants ended up going to one [Why British students are heading to America for an elite education, By Helen Kirwan-Taylor, Telegraph, September 27, 2017].

    This doesn’t make any sense because Oxford and Cambridge are still far less woke than American universities (although rapidly catching up, as recent diversity efforts have shown).

  57. El Dato says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    The main question is, did people bang after the party?

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  58. El Dato says:
    @Fox

    At the same time there is a mad building boom at universities. Where’s all the money coming from?

    These are the times of easy money. I see building booms everywhere.

    At the next recession, there will be serious de-booming while sub-intellectual fa**ots will proclaim in the NYT and from Central Bank ass-warming thrones that even MORE money needs to be printed and/or interest rates need to be even more below zero to keep the cocaine party going.

    They will be burnt out of there like nests of yellowjackets.

  59. ricpic says:

    The author fails to grasp the tremendous anxiety parents have about their offsprings’ chances in the economic game of life. Those parents/alumni will continue to pay the exorbitant price for a crap service because, “My darling will end in poverty hell without a sheepskin!”

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  60. @James J. O'Meara

    Yeah. I keep trying to explain it to the bozos on here, but they are too un-educated (maybe I should say uncultivated, un-refined) to understand.

    College is not trade school. It is meant to civilize you at the very least to the extent that civilized people can stand to live around you.

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
  61. eah says:

    The article just says the “bubble” is bursting (it probably is, and should), not that college/university degrees will be generally less sought after, have less cachet, or lower value in the job market.

    My experience has been that starting in the late 1980s or so, there was a noticeable downward trend in the ability of graduates to speak professionally, write well (including vocabulary), and think analytically, the latter being true even among the technically educated — an open question is whether secondary (high school) education in the US will react and begin some kind of reasonable vocational training instead of pushing college on everyone, and in the end leaving pretty much every student, including those who take the college prep track, largely unprepared for anything resembling real life — my guess is no.

    The fact that interviews became less of ‘what you know’ and more ‘what school you went to’ corrupted the merit factor in hiring.

    I remember reading a newspaper article (so you know it was at least a couple of decades ago) about some pompous tech blowhard who said he let the universities do candidate screening for him, ie he only considered people who’d graduated from the “best” schools.

  62. res says:
    @Truth3

    Standardized College Entrance Tests (ACT, SAT) scores starting in the late 1970’s became an objective measure of a student’s capability.

    That seems like an odd thing to say given that the SAT has been around since 1926.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT

    But I think you are on target with the rest of your comment.

    • Replies: @Truth3
  63. @anonymous

    That’s a good question. Some of them were, uh, short expiration if you know wadda mean. Just another pretty face, etc. Others were from his intellectual level, from the University of Texas at Austin, literature groups, friends and networks. He was a very bright boy, born and raised on a farm. Women found him hard to resist: was good enough looking with well defined facial features, outgoing, friendly, confident, and content to be who he was. He was easy on the outside-very approachable-but complex on the inside. And of course, he was “good with his hands”.

    He was say, like a perfect martini, just the right mixture of the ingredients, in harmony and balance.

  64. The nose made it mandatory to go to college so they could indoctrinate our children.

    And they inflated college costs so they could make money on the backs of our children.

    You have to understand…..there really is a force behind the scenes…..a money power that gets nearly everything it wants, by hook or by crook.

    • Replies: @Richard P
  65. TheJester says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    Griggs v. Duke Power, 401 U.S. 424 (1970) had a great deal to do with employers abandoning internal testing as a basis for hiring or promotion.

    Thank you. So this is why some companies overhire, force the tranches of hires into competitive situations, and cut loose the losers at the end of the year.

    In an expansion of that scenario …

    I was a hiring manager for years. Identifying the losers was relatively easy. Look for someone who appears to jump jobs every two years. That generally meant that the company took a year to realize who they had to let go … and spent the second year contriving a scheme that would pass legal muster to get rid of them.

    Companies had to be careful. One could not fire a protected minority or female for anything assumed to be personal … such as performance. If you did, expect a lawsuit.

    Better: Do away with the position as the rationale for letting someone go … and then hire someone back into the position under a new job description that, generally, covered the same work.

    What a waste of my time … and another part of the contorted illusions and delusions that pass as Western civilization.

  66. renfro says:
    @lysias

    The education in the Greek and Roman classics that was provided to me by my Jesuit high school, Princeton, Oxford, and Harvard has certainly enabled me to think.

    Agree.
    Unfortunately few now enable ‘thinking’.
    They seem to enable non thinking personal opinionating instead.

  67. Richard P says:
    @Robert Dolan

    At least someone understands the dark realities of our times.

  68. @Haha

    Ah, but if that was the case, surely the ad would have stated that a Master’s was required. This is the 21st century, after all.

  69. @Fox

    Where’s all the money coming from?

    El Data replied already, but let me put it this way:

    Taxpayers that haven’t even been born yet.

    The. building boom is done with tuition money, which is 5-10X higher per student than 30 years ago. Additionally, many colleges have increased their enrollments 50% or more since then. Colleges can afford to charge whatever they desire, as they will make it clear to prospective freshman, or the parents thereof, that “we will make sure you can get the money”. They’d be glad to help you apply for the big loans, or you can do it yourself. The main thing is, loan amounts can go up to cover tuition.

    The reason loan amounts can keep going up, is that it’s not the loan officer of 1985 going “hmmm, you want enough for tuition and board for 4 years of Art History? Nah, it’s took big a risk, son. I’d get fired for this. We could probably loan you $500 a year…” Nope, when Uncle Sugar has your ass, you don’t need to worry about it none.

    As these loans start defaulting more, and right now something like 15% of the $1,600,000,000,000 is in default, it may not be you the taxpayer who’s on the hook, because Uncle Sugar will just get the FED to back them in creating more Treasury bonds (please don’t get picky with me on this – it’s more complicated than just that). That brings the $23,000,000,000,000 national debt up even higher for the as-yet-unborn future taxpayers.

    Well, it’ll all crash before too long.

    Have a nice day!

    • Replies: @anonymous
  70. @ricpic

    “My darling will end in poverty hell without a sheepskin!”

    That’s a true characterization of the average parents’ anxiety. They don’t realize that with a sheepskin, their offspring will end up in debt slavery, another level of hell.

  71. Mulegino1 says:

    Just when one is convinced that the value of a college education is going into the tank, a handful of brilliant and well spoken young students come along and restore one’s faith in the system:

    • LOL: the grand wazoo
    • Replies: @Russ
  72. @Justvisiting

    Fantastic article I agree and it will only get worse. The University of North Carolina had thousands of students (guess what color) received grades for fake courses in African Studies and similar credits without even attending class. It was a massive academic fraud that went on for years and the university attacked the whistle blowers. It was completely played down by the Jewish Controlled media. North Carolina should have lost their accreditation but nothing happened.

    Accreditation should be abolished because it means absolutely nothing. It raises the prices of education and gives jobs to a bunch SJW who believe everyone should get a degree. The Blank Slate Theory of Locke is endangering society because it has now invaded the sciences which were once the dominion of the highest caliber students.

    The idea that everyone is “college material” and that everyone can do science will collapse many of the institutions of society. This is what Obama and his Marxists friends call “Equalization.” Obama believes it’s just a matter of numbers and all we have to do is give degrees and put the people in society with these fake degrees in their Utopian World. We as a society are on the verge of complete insanity and as a nation are suicidal in trying to prove that everyone is the same intellectually.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  73. Don’t seem to be going bust here in Canada…

    The unis are just bringing in hundreds of thousands of “international students” per year… with a path to PR and eventual citizenship, of course.

    Why hook a white kid with 30k debt when you can hook some Indian with 65k debt AND have him work for peanuts afterwards.

  74. WOW!

    What an article! I agree with everything, so we homeschool.

    At eight and nine years old my kids run the bulldozer and 13 speed manual dump truck, the cars and trucks, the power tools and equipment, etc. They are mini-adults.

    Plus the nine year old is doing calculus. The eight year old – he is doing an apprenticeship in construction contracting.

    Almost everything a boy would want to do is prohibited to them in “public schools”.

    So fuck ’em. Not just the Universities. All of it. K-12 too.

    Hallelujia!

    • Replies: @Alden
  75. Truth3 says:
    @res

    Nobody much cared about SAT until the 1970’s.

  76. American colleges today function as slave markets, trapping “students” into lifetime debt peonage to the financial elite. “Professors” are bait. Administrators are slave mongers — that’s why they’re highest paid. Most (75%+) “teaching” is now “performed” by graduate student instructors and “adjunct” professors for McDonalds wages. Circus clowns are better paid, more entertaining, and have more intellectual integrity.

    But the “wokeness” of American colleges is strictly fake. They pose as “left” (or “right”) on decoy issues — mostly “identity politics” — but rigorously repress discussion of causes — notably the financial operations of the Wall Street elite kleptocracy. Department by department, they are “captive” agencies of the powers that be. Economics departments are mouthpieces for usury finance. Science departments are enserfed to corporate and military “research” projects. Political science and humanities provide foot-soldiers for deep state agencies. Medical schools team with the AMA and corporate medicine to enforce America’s horrific deadly “health care system” (with the highest prices on the planet producing third world public health rates — Cuba has better infant mortality, e.g.). The law schools provide foot soldiers for Just Ice, Inc. History departments maintain an iron censorship in favor of the Official Version — you will look long and hard and never find honest fact based documentary discussion of, even, the First World War, let alone the Second, or JFK, let alone 9/11. And so on.

    In private and public colleges alike, on the Boards of Regents the plutocracy rules. In the Departments group think and official ideas are rigorously enforced. The all purpose PhD exam question is “tell me what I want to hear.” Dissenters who probe beneath the surface of permissible discussion are promptly excreted. Junior faculty are incessantly harassed into neurotic speechlessness — “careful what you say” is the prevailing law. The idea that it is a question of “left” or “right” just buys into the hoax. Official ideas define the limits of both the fake “left” and the fake “right” (and the author of this article buys in). There is nothing at all new about this situation in American colleges. Thorstein Veblen discusses it at length in The Higher Learning In America (1918). Veblen did not last long anywhere he taught.

    The dumbing down of the level of instruction and the dilution of ‘requirements’ for the various degrees has obvious economic motives — the more debt slaves the merrier.

    • Agree: Alfred
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Alden
  77. @lysias

    The dissolution of the monasteries was a power grab and a land grab. The monasteries — their buildings, lands, tenants — passed into the hands of Henry VIII, his henchmen, and his backers among the aristocracy and gentry. It was looting on a vast, national scale. The “theological” issues were largely a cover story for a political and kleptocratic maneuver. Henry began the establishment of the English Church as independent of the Church of Rome to free England from the financial demands and corrupting administrative control of a foreign power. Sir Thomas More (who burnt heretics himself) was executed for “praemunire” — a form of treason which consists in furnishing support (munire) to another power “first” (prae) — i.e. sooner than — to his Sovereign Lordship the King. If America had such a statute numerous plutocrats would need to emigrate with all due speed.

  78. @Counterinsurgency

    Wall Street Mammon worship superseded Yankeedom by 1920. The cultural history in this comment is a century out of date.

    • Agree: Hail
  79. @Ruprecht

    State legislators can kick-off the process by denying state taxes for bull crap courses and departments. The private schools may or may not follow suit-so to hell with ‘em.

  80. @Ruprecht

    The so-called “left” is an authoritarian thug with the Happy Face mask with which the so-called “right” dispenses. Both terms are pure fog.

    • Replies: @Ruprecht
  81. No mention of the fact that one primary reason was the de facto outlawing of IQ tests in hiring decisions by employers.

    University admission usefully served as a rough IQ proxy.

    A simple 45 minute test would have saved trillions of dollars and prevented the ruin of millions of lives.

  82. @jim jones

    A British education is still the gold standard for most of the World, for how much longer I do not know.

    You mean snob appeal. That is the Oxbridge and Ivy League marketing pitch.

    As for how long, you just have to look at who they are appointing to head places like Oxford. These people were brought to clean lavatories, sweep the streets plus keep wages down not run learning institutions that produced people like Newton.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  83. @anon

    For technical fields Germany is definitely value for money.

  84. Anonymous[855] • Disclaimer says:
    @niteranger

    Back in 1985 Edward Damerell wrote Education’s Smoking Gun: How Teachers’ Colleges Have Destroyed Education in America, a hilarious account of UMass’ ed programs granting functionally illiterate black women masters and doctorates in education based, literally, on being able to set up audio-visual equipment in a classroom. The problem was compounded because, as these women could not possibly teach, female and racial affirmative action combined to place them all over the Northeast as principals and administrators. We’ve all encountered this insanity visiting almost any government office in America. Damerell also tells the story of how Bill Cosby got his doctorate, which was showing videos of the Fat Albert cartoons to staff at lavish dinner parties.

    Before his death in 2004, Richard Mitchell, the Underground Grammarian, published a free newsletter by that name, which was a hilarious expose of the clown shows passing for teachers’ colleges in America and the insane programs inflicted on children who I’d guess qualify as GenX. The newsletter and his several books are free on the Internet and worth a look. They’re may seem a bit staid these days, however, due to the debasement of critical thinking and being overwhelmed by the edgy crassness typifying the Ignatius J. Reillys who make up most of today’s keyboard commandos.

    • Agree: Alden
  85. Another one accepted to seven different ivies (top pic):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/08/a-reservation-restored/535656/

    I wonder if any of the admissions officials realize what a fucking joke everyone thinks they are.

  86. Ruprecht says:
    @J. Alfred Powell

    While there is much truth to what you say, my point is that however clouded the right-left divide is in practice there is only one ideology that’s being taught and preached as the state religion on our Western campuses.

    • Replies: @J. Alfred Powell
  87. @Alfred

    “I phoned them up and told them that they were wasting their time on me. A Hong Kong class mate of mine was a billionaire many times over. He was chairman of the second most valuable property company in the world. They didn’t know. They emailed me to say the the dean will be contacting him in person. ”

    Assholes like you are the reason for the right to bear arms.

    • LOL: Alfred
  88. Alden says:
    @lysias

    1470 to 1600’s the majority of the printing presses in Europe were in catholic monasteries not secular print shops. Map printing was a monopoly of the a monastery scriptorium in the Duchy of Lorraine France That’s where the first maps of America were printed. That monastery had non monk non catholic map makers and specialists from all over Europe working there.

    Monasteries were publishers. They welcomed the printing press. Unlike the Protestant print ships, they printed a variety of books, not just endless copies of the blood thirsty fairy tales of the Jewish Bible.

    And btw, the English universities were catholic monastery libraries and schools 800 years before Henry 8.

    Another author totally ignorant of the subject skims through Wikipedia and makes a fool of himself with his ignorance. He could have written the article without the Protestant church grade school history inserted.

    Author doesn’t know much about the American university system and degree requirements at all. So he mixes information about 2 different countries and produces thus mish mash.

    The most ignorant thing he wrote was that English universities are so expensive English students are going to America. English universities are more expensive now than decades ago when they were free.

    But the cost of an English university is much much cheaper than ours. Like 5k a year vs 35k a year.

    American employees still require the degree for many jobs. Starbucks store managers work 60 70 a week for a few dollars more than minimum wage for 40 hours. A lot of these lower management jobs are designed to get around the paid overtime laws. Clerks work 40 hours a week and are paid for 4o hours. Managers work 60,70 hours a week but are paid for 40 hours.

    The author’s attempt to discuss the American degree and hiring system with the English is a failure because of his ignorance of the American system

    Apprenticeship? The few private sector unions in America with well paid jobs and an apprenticeship program are under the gun of the affirmative action gestapo. Goes back to republican Richard Nixon’s Philadelphia Plan designed to destroy the White man. May he burn in hell forever and ever.

    An English relative by marriage did very well with an apprenticeship. Finished high school at 16. Apprenticed himself to a cabinet maker. Now he has his own shop. He designs and makes very expensive bespoke furniture for designers, not retail.

    But that’s England, not America. Do we even make furniture in America anymore? If Herndon and Baker are still around have they replaced all the Americans with illegal Central Americans making $3 an hour.

  89. @Ruprecht

    To me this suggests that your recent contact with “Western campuses” is superficial, mostly mediated, and ideologically partial.

  90. Alden says:

    ADVICE TO AMERICANS THINKING OF MED SCHOOL WHO FEAR COST AND LOSS OF INCOME FOR 13 YEARS.

    Medical school in Britain including Ireland is only 5 years. No 4 year undergrad degree required. Internship included in the one 5 year medical school.

    So after passing the licensing exam, a young Dr can start adult life working and earning as 22 or 23 instead of early 30s. Have your babies at 25 26 instead of 40.

    Reasonable costs not half a million including living expenses. Pay back you student loans at 30 instead of 60.
    It’s definitely worth applying. Britain has many med s hooks. Maybe one will take you. The U.K. schools England Scotland N Ireland are extremely anti White. They tend to recruit in the commonwealth especially Africa

    But Ireland doesn’t have affirmative action yet. High school diploma and pass the admission exam.

    Canada same as us. 8 years school not quite as expensive as US but pricey.

    Go for it

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    , @Alfred
  91. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Just build the fighter jets and weapons of war, Martyanov, and leave it to the philosopher-kings to decide when, how, and against whom they shall be used.

    Name some outstanding political leader with a science and math background? Mike Pompeo (Mech Eng)? Angela Merkel (Ph.D., Quantum Chemistry)?

    http://cdn3.chartsbin.com/chartimages/l_38380_f00312c62dd7f8593bab17be1b8decf3

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  92. @obwandiyag

    You obviously flunked out. (or should have)

  93. @Anonymous

    Name some outstanding political leader with a science and math background? Mike Pompeo (Mech Eng)? Angela Merkel (Ph.D., Quantum Chemistry)?

    It is not in my rules to respond to anonymous entities, but if you call Mr. Pompeo or Merkel “leaders”, you, obviously, have very little understanding of what leadership is and how it develops. This, of course, not to mention a peculiar fact that Mr. Clinton, Obama, most in US media and government class have zero natural-precise science training and most came from law and other “humanities” pseudo-sciences.

    and leave it to the philosopher-kings

    Looks like you read my last book. Marcus Aurelius, certainly, comes to mind. Per Western lawyers or “philosophers” and most political “scientists”–I wouldn’t trust them with mowing my lawn, let alone make decisions on the use of modern weapons. You also, evidently, lack a grasp of the fact that Ph.D in political science or in philosophy would have about the same understanding of modern warfare and its consequences as a pony in the traveling circus.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Mike P
  94. @Amerimutt Golems

    To clarify, I agree that the changes to which you allude threaten to ruin the institutions, but I also agree with commenter jim jones that the education that can be obtained therein is still the standard for much of the world.

    What is happening is outrageous.

  95. @J. Alfred Powell

    Wall Street Mammon worship superseded Yankeedom [1] by 1920. The cultural history in this comment is a century out of date.

    Arguable, maybe. I’ve had a fair amount of experience with universities up to about 2010. The Jewish influence was very strong, but not universal.

    a) The basic problem of the Jewish establishment is lack of headcount. Assume for the sake of this demonstration only that the average IQ of the Ashkenazim is 115, standard deviation 15 points. That gives the Ashkenazim about 5.3 times as many people with an IQ over 125, suitable for university service. However, Ashkenazim population in the US is about 12 million, of which about 3 million would qualify for university work. White population, 233 million, about 11 million would qualify for university work. The Jewish population with IQ over 125 is thus outnumbered by a non-Jewish factor of maybe 3 to 4. That is not enough to maintain a position of dominance against serious opposition.
    Opposition has been weak since at least the end of WW II, but the current anti White / open borders appears to be strengthening the opposition. If it strengthens enough, it wins.

    b) Mammon won in NYC (in the Empire State) a long time before the AD 1920s. NYC was commercially dominant over New England once it opened the Erie Canal, AD 1825, and NYC was an intensely commercial city from the day of its foundation as a trading post by the Dutch around AD 1630. At present, Yankeedom is in alliance with New Netherlands, searching for a millenarian equality of homo sapiens, and Yankeedom supplies the administrators and subordinates for the universities and for the corporations. Granted that they are being displaced, they are not being displaced by competent people. They are usually the only people there who can keep the place running. Should the Yankeedom/NYC (and the urban coalition it effectively leads) alliance break up, as it seems to be doing, NYC could not keep the universities running and could not keep the corporations functioning. That would be enough to expel NYC from its position of dominance/leadership. The current dysfunction in both universities and corporations suggests that the breakup is already underway.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] http://www.colinwoodard.com/files/ColinWoodard_AmericanNations_map.pdf

  96. @Alfa158

    Nah, the whole bunch of us sounded as dumb as rocks when talking to each other. That wasn’t it. And the humanities types acted friendly as anything.

    At the end the Humanities types monopolized the final presentation, which they gave as “Space travel isn’t good for people, but it might be possible to avoid some of the harm” and mentioned no benefits whatsoever. Standard Left talk.

    Counterinsurgency

  97. @El Dato

    There was only one woman, so it would have been a bit Hells Angels-ish, or maybe just very gay. I couldn’t say, though, I wasn’t there.

    Counterinsurgency

  98. Dan Hayes says:
    @Alden

    Alden:

    I’m surprised that Ireland does not yet have affirmative action academic admissions. I emphasize “yet” since Ireland is vying mightily to be the #1 SJW nation.

    • Replies: @Alden
  99. Ron Unz says:
    @J. Alfred Powell

    American colleges today function as slave markets, trapping “students” into lifetime debt peonage to the financial elite. “Professors” are bait. Administrators are slave mongers — that’s why they’re highest paid. Most (75%+) “teaching” is now “performed” by graduate student instructors and “adjunct” professors for McDonalds wages. Circus clowns are better paid, more entertaining, and have more intellectual integrity…In private and public colleges alike, on the Boards of Regents the plutocracy rules. In the Departments group think and official ideas are rigorously enforced.

    Sure, that’s a reasonable description of the ridiculous situation. However, you forgot to mention that our most elite universities have actually transformed themselves into gigantic hedge-funds, with some sort of school or something attached to one side to provide tax-exempt status:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/paying-tuition-to-a-giant-hedge-fund/

    Moreover, the huge loans students are taking on to attend these elite institutions are required to pay the exorbitant tuition. Yet oddly enough, the resulting tuition revenue is so minuscule compared to their regular investment income that nobody would even notice if it suddenly disappeared:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/will-harvard-become-free-and-fair/

    These days American higher education has become so strange in so many different ways that educated Americans of previous generations would surely consider it mere satire.

  100. @Justvisiting

    “(My alma mater with the insane endowment still calls me asking for money–They must think their graduates are _really_ stupid!)”

    They’re literally counting on it.

  101. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Lol, I did read/listen to your book. Bought a Kindle and Audible version. And I agree with your position on education. I was just having fun with your first comment.

  102. Alden says:
    @Alfred

    Relative sent his begging letters back with a note scribbled in red marking pen

    “ get me a job and I’ll send you money”

    My mother gave tens of thousands to Cornell which doesn’t need her money. She wasn’t even thinking donating might get her children in. It just made her feel good. Cornell needs me. Yeah right.

  103. @Logan

    All that exists is power relationships between groups and the resulting oppression, since communication is itself an exercise in power and exclusion.

    And they are correct during intervals of complete social breakdown. I think they believe that their belief in power relationships as the only relationships existing means that they can _threaten_ to break down society (“make the wheels run backwards”) but not actually do it. It is something like the game of chicken, and they think their opponents (too squeamish to actually fight) will always flinch first.

    Unfortunately, while playing the game (and winning) they’ve damaged society enough that it’s apt to break down on its own, in which case nobody is going to stop.

    Counterinsurgency

  104. @macilrae

    Can you provide copies of the old tests?

    Are they paste-binned somewhere?

    • Replies: @macilrae
  105. Bill says:
    @James J. O'Meara

    No, the Liberal Arts provide education. Plato and Aquinas would have agreed with that. Humanism is a swamp creature from the “Renaissance.”

  106. @Ron Unz

    Fascinating.

    https://www.gs.unsw.edu.au/policy/documents/equitystatement.pdf

    The universities are also overtly politically discriminatory whilst purporting to be the opposite.

    So at the University of New South Wales you have this:

    “3.1. The University requires the continued cooperation of all staff and students to promote the awareness and embedding of our equity, diversity and inclusion principles into their everyday behaviour, language and decision-making.”

    So in effect, thought-policing. Avoid thought-crime for admission and advancement. Any deviation equates to non-admission and non-advancement.

    Which in practice means this:

    “Embracing the diversity and cultural richness of our communities and ensuring that our staff and students can achieve their full potential regardless of background, as is outlined in the UNSW 2025 Strategy. For example, this may entail action to reverse the impact of disadvantage stemming from a person or group’s differences (such as those based on a person or group’s social standing, economic status, demographic characteristics, or geographic location).”

    Which means you can have entire faculties consisting only of homosexual disabled immigrant Jews and Indians and Chinese and this is still ‘diverse’ because of these individuals’ relation to their group representations. And this is actually the case. Entire faculties at places like Maquarie University, or the University of Sydney are literally non-white – but this is regarded as diverse on that perverse logic.

    It’s just diabolical.

    Yet this somehow is meant to reconcile with this:

    “Discrimination occurs when a person, or a group of people, is treated less favourably (either directly or indirectly) than another person or group because of a protected attribute. ”

    And the attributes include political opinion, religious affiliation and social origin – yet conservative, Christian, white people may be excluded both via

    1. affirmative action, and
    2. the requirement they promote the university’s diversity plan.

    https://www.2025.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/files/uploads/unsw_2025strategy_201015.pdf

    Then you look at ‘A Just Society’ Theme B1 of the plan.

    And you see this: “3. To ensure equality in recruitment, development, retention and promotion of staff with particular attention to ensuring no disadvantage on the basis of gender, cultural background, disability or Indigenous origin. UNSW will be the exemplar Australian university and an employer of choice for people from diverse backgrounds.”

    “Given the limitations of relying solely on high school grades, entry criteria and processes will be a focus of review and reform. Bonus point schemes will be used when there is evidence to demonstrate additional value over the use of crude measures of academic performance alone in reducing the effects of disadvantage on admission decisions. UNSW’s Scholarship Program will include more ‘equity-based’ scholarships to support students from disadvantaged and under-represented groups and the number of scholarships for Indigenous and low socioeconomic status students will be increased.”

    And more variations on that theme. Total overt discrimination against students and staff of anything western, and anything merit-based.

    All in all, absolute overt gate-keeping and discrimination against anything remotely western, white, Christian, and majoritarian. And perhaps now Asian. But that is a separate argument.

    Always the double-think of anti-discrimination and forms of affirmative action based on minority statuses across every possible dimension of identity.

    I know all of this is trite and well-canvassed compared to the economic structures you’re discussing which are remarkable – but I’m sure it’s like this in all the US universities and colleges.

    So you can see that it is impossible for staff in a modern university to advance – literally impossible, if they don’t espouse and positively facilitate the most egregious progressivism, in Australia.

    And Liberals preen about why conservatives aren’t represented in the Universities. It’s because they aren’t permitted. They are ruthlessly culled and filtered.

    So I hope that in future conservatives apply the same. Use the same policies, and simply adjust them to ruthlessly purge any leftist identities. Conservatives have to understand what they are dealing with. These policies are actions of 4th generation of war, and need to be subject to severe retaliation in kind.

    The universities need to burn. They need to burn.

    Ron this is something I’m considering doing. And I know it’s presumptive and possibly rude to request a man doing so much to consider something additional.

    But have you ever considered compiling old curricula, texts and tests that could be used by people to home-school their kids in parallel with the official converged and subverted marxist curricula?

    Is there anything like that in your archives of the periodicals?

  107. Leave Plato out of this! First of all he’s right: we do live in a world of (objects that approximate to ) fixed forms, which is why we can utilize general terms like ‘rock’, ‘cheese’, ‘square’, ‘mountain’, ‘music’, etc. Aristotle ‘essentially’ agreed. Second of all, ‘the left” opposes what they think of as “essentialism.” One fire-breathing feminist says there is no idea more important to her project than “opposing essentialism.” By which she likely means the notion that there are men and women, whites and blacks, old and young, etc.

  108. @Counterinsurgency

    Wall Street took control of American government incrementally from the Civil War forward. By 1898 it was in a position to drive the country into war and by 1916 toward the pursuit of world empire, achieved in the later 40s.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  109. @Ron Unz

    Yes, there’s that too. Big money and slavery always go together.

  110. macilrae says:
    @Flint Clint

    This is an O level GCE mathematics paper from 1957 – intended for 16 year olds.

    https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/old-1957-o-level-maths-papers-11194130

  111. @Counterinsurgency

    An IQ of 125 is too low to enter the ranks of PhDs, who are generally over 140, depending on the subject. Influential professors are presumably drawn from the top fraction of PhDs. Unfortunately I can’t do the math — Mr. Unz or Derbyshire or Steve Sailer might — but the over 150, over 160, and still higher cohorts are probably dominated by Ashkenazis, despite their tiny headcount overall.
    Asians, if we look at the international situation, are more likely to give the Ashkenazim competition in math and the sciences.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Alden
    , @Anonymous
  112. @Truth3

    When I was attending college, I was amazed that few people who were paying their schooling with government grants, were allowed to get going with almost zero passing grades! When you say ‘minorities’, you must be kidding! They were as white as any body else, and dumb. I saw some refugees from Vietnam and other Southwest Asian areas, getting good grades, while these white females, (yes they were women), so dumb and who did not care at all. So If you do think that ‘minorities’ are dumb, it was not my experience when attending higher ed. In Utah.

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
  113. Golobki says:

    Bernie Sanders wife’s financial mismanagement ended up bankrupting and closing a small Vermont college.
    Think what they could do to the country if elected President.

  114. anonymous[299] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    How does philanthropy play into the building boom?

    Intuition tells me it’s a scam, and one whose endgame is a debt-burden for the donee institution: the donor puts up initial money, gets a name on a building and occupies and prominent piece of real estate, but the university is obligated for 80% or 65%, for the next 30 years.
    Which means taxpayers pay twice for that “gift” — the philanthropist gets to write off taxes, while the tax base is saddled with 30+ years bonds.
    Campuses become a collection of monuments to tax-dodging combined with hubris.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  115. @Rosie

    That may already be included in their long-term forecasting and planning. Suddenly their building boom makes sense.

    They already have huge influence over immigration policy, so they can play a part in guaranteeing that the immigration Ponzi scheme continues and they have an endless supply of suckers to fill those beautiful buildings and pay the cost.

    The college scam could conceivably go on for a long time, without the bubble bursting, as they simply forget to care about the Citizens of the very country where their campuses are located.

    Globalism works in their favor, as it does for most other big businesses.

  116. @Counterinsurgency

    Post WW2 universities are dominated by Jewish social science, history and antrhrpology.
    Post Modernism is Jewish. The question is why did your WASP’s give it up to the Jews

    • Replies: @Alden
    , @Counterinsurgency
  117. @ruralguy

    “I think our media or culture has indoctrinated people to look down upon trades work, factory work, farm work, and other low-skilled work. It’s a shame, because young people who never experience hard work end up too soft.”

    And what ethnic group has always looked with disdain on hands on physical productivity? What ethnic group owns and runs the media, the entertainment industry and non scientific higher education?

  118. Ron Unz says:
    @jack daniels

    An IQ of 125 is too low to enter the ranks of PhDs, who are generally over 140, depending on the subject. Influential professors are presumably drawn from the top fraction of PhDs. Unfortunately I can’t do the math — Mr. Unz or Derbyshire or Steve Sailer might — but the over 150, over 160, and still higher cohorts are probably dominated by Ashkenazis, despite their tiny headcount overall.

    Actually, I think it’s a very serious mistake to use these sorts of IQ estimates for this purpose. Among other things, the Jewish IQ is almost certainly lower than 115, and no one really knows the SD. Moreover, there’s really no reason to believe that IQs follow a normal distribution at the high end, and estimates of the IQ cut-offs for different situations are pretty vague. So there’s a *gigantic* amount of hand-waving in all these calculations.

    I think it’s much better to use the *empirical* NMS dataset, which provides the actual distribution of the highest-performing 0.5% of American HS students, roughly corresponding to the fraction admitted to the Ivies and similarly elite schools.

    As I remonstrated several years ago, that high-performing slice of American students is roughly 65-70% white Gentile and 6-7% Jewish:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/#meritocracy-vs-jews

    Using actual results is generally better than relying upon all sorts of estimates and extrapolations.

    • Agree: utu
  119. @Counterinsurgency

    ” The Jewish population with IQ over 125 is thus outnumbered by a non-Jewish factor of maybe 3 to 4. That is not enough to maintain a position of dominance against serious opposition.
    Opposition has been weak since at least the end of WW II,”

    Opposition hasn’t been weak. It has been virtually nonexistent. Jews dominate, not through absolute or even relative numbers, but through ideology which is rooted in the guilt chain hung around white necks after WW2 because of the supposed Holocaust and pre war “racist” theorizing. Cultural Marxism dominates the humanities and social sciences and it is Jewish, “Economics” in the Anglosphere has always been Jewish. Gentiles do Jew think or they don’t teach. They don’t even graduate.

    But at least you are talking about the right subject I am amazed by how few of the commentators are addressing it

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  120. @Ron Unz

    It’s worth pointing out — and Mr. Unz could do this better than I can — that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the mathematics involved that characteristically distorts this discussion. It may be true that a marginally higher proportion of Ashkenazi fall into the upper reaches of the IQ bell curve, but since Ashkenazi comprise under 2% of Americans, this results in a comparatively slight higher number of actual Ashkenazi persons falling into this category, by no means sufficient to account for the actual gross over-representations encountered in specific fields, so that proposals to account for these over-representations by the putative higher intelligence of the subjects amount to semi-smart sleights-of-hand.

    *

    James Forrestal, first Secretary of Defense, reports on the Cabinet meeting of January 6, 1948, to discuss President Truman’s upcoming State of the Union message: “There was a passage about getting a college education for everyone. I offered it as my belief that the really serious question was the lack of proper secondary education, that a lot of them who went to college simply wasted their time, and that in the Service we had found great deficiencies in the training in simple mathematics, ability to write legibly and with clarity of expression, and that as a matter of fact in the case of a good many university graduates their education was not much use in preparing them for military service or for that matter for any other practical work.” (Forrestal Diaries p. 356)

    Thirty years earlier (as I note above) Thorstein Veblen’s The Higher Learning in America points out the dominance of “business interests” and the Official Lie over American colleges. Plus ça change …

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
  121. Alden says:
    @Dan Hayes

    Obviously haven’t got around to it. So hurry up if you’re thinking of applying.

  122. Alden says:
    @jack daniels

    My mother had a chemistry PHD from Cornell with an IQ tested at 118. That was before affirmative action so she didn’t get any breaks.

    I can’t see any non science MA or PHD needing an IQ over 110 or 105 especially for affirmative action people happy to follow their thesis advisor’s PC dogma. Last job before retirement was at a major university. Have had a lot of grad student tenants. Humanities theses are unbelievable loads of ….

  123. @anon

    Russian educations seems to be pretty good, but the public schools are stuck in the book-heavy Soviet era, and crippled by the masses of Central Asians. Same shit as in America with Central Americans. Pay to get your kid out of the brown morass, or pray for the best. Universities, however, are of very good quality, as the lower orders seldom get that far.

  124. eah says:
    @Rosie

    The number of international students has been growing strongly for decades — since most public universities have discounted in-state tuition/fees, international (and out-of-state) students have been and will continue to be a significant source of additional revenue.

  125. Alden says:
    @Achilles Wannabe

    I think American WASPs just had their day. Don’t just think in terms of British descent WASPs vs Jews. Think of other Christian European immigrants. I think German is still America’s largest ethnicity. They seem to occupy Pennsylvania to the Rockies. And a lot in the south too.

    Germans were a large and important population in 19th early 20th century NYC St Louis Indianapolis Cleveland all Ohio cities Chicago Milwaukee Minneapolis and Philadelphia. About half are Catholic not Lutheran . Dutch were very influential and important in New York State and City for centuries.

    Cities are more important than rural areas. Mid and late 19th century 1860 to 1950 saw many cities ruled by Irish Catholic politicians and German businesses

    WASP domination stopped at the Appalachians.

    The south was always more Scots, Irish and Scots Irish descendants than English. Lots of influential French in the south too. The religion was different than New England Protestants.

    The south was genteel Anglicans and enthusiastic fundamentalist, not intellectual buttinsky save the world universalists. Southern fundamentalist have a personal relationship with God and the Bible. The New England Congregationalists and universalists just want to reform the world or something

    Personal opinion is that the WASP ascendancy was just a myth created by resentful Irish and Jewish 19th century immigrants.

    School bussing and black crime blasted the Irish and Germans out of the cities leaving them to the blacks and their Jewish leadership

    If Jews are so intelligent why have the 3 places they ruled and still ruled Soviet Russia and American cities total failures under Jewish rule. Israel reasonably successful but only because it’s a welfare dependency of America I believe it’s GNP is the same as American aid

    This is all just my opinion It’s not something I’m an expert on.

    • Replies: @Achilles Wannabe
  126. Alden says:
    @J. Alfred Powell

    The California legislature does something right every 20 years or so. The state schools heaped on so many requirements without the necessary classes available students were taking 6 or 7 years to graduate. They weren’t slackers at all. Just couldn’t take BS 2 till they finished BS 1 but couldn’t sign up for BS 1

    So the law was passed that if students didn’t graduate in 5 years their classes no tuition charged. Put the fault where it belonged; on the school.

  127. Alden says:
    @Backwoods Bob

    Hi, haven’t heard from you in a while. Hope to see more comments from you. Congratulations on the way you’re raising your boys.

  128. @anonymous

    I don’t know all those details, #299. The school I am most familiar with is no Ivy League type, but it has one new building that is a “gift” from a donor. Now that you present this likely scenario, I would like to find out how it worked. Lots of the new buildings though, new dorms, a new gym that is too good for the staff/faculty (only for the students) etc. aren’t even fake gifts such as you say.

  129. @J. Alfred Powell

    Wall Street took control of American government incrementally from the Civil War forward. By 1898 it was in a position to drive the country into war and by 1916 toward the pursuit of world empire, achieved in the later 40s.

    That explains it. What you are calling “Wall Street”, I am calling “NYC” and “New Netherland”. The confusion comes in that I’m assuming that “business culture” has always dominated NYC (founder effect from the original Dutch trading post in the AD 1600s) and you are assuming that NYC has another “culture”, independent of business, to which “Wall Street”, the financial part of the business culture, can be contrasted.

    Not really much of a difference. The population of NYC has been pretty much ignored since the start of massive immigration in the 1840s, which the local population was strongly against (rioting at times, I’m told), and the business culture favored. No contest, the immigration continued. I’m looking at NYC from the standpoint of “what net effect did the region actually have”, and that effect has been a trading ethos with no loyalty to anybody, especially posterity.

    Given that, we’re actually saying pretty much the same thing, except that I’m following the history a but further back.

    Note that the net effect of “there is money in poverty” was to drive out the existing NYC population (funded by salaries, and requiring placation) and replace it with a foreign population that was directly funded by NYC government, hence easier to control. NYC for most purposes, needn’t consider its population’s desires at all now, and actually makes money from them by tax inflow to support the NYC welfare programs. Of course, NYC culture is getting replaced by its foreign inhabitants, and its inhabitants aren’t really interested in business, so long term the strategy has failed [1].

    Counterinsurgency

  130. @Rosie

    Rosie, I didn’t have an AGREE left earlier, but the importing of rich foreigners to pay full tuition at the Universities is a big thing. The 2nd is to import Chinese and Indians to fill science/engr departments in grad school in order to do research on the cheap.* You are also right with that scenario (a big discussion that I got into with commenter AnonFromTn) that we are told we need these foreigners because Americans aren’t signing up to those grad schools. They aren’t signing up because the grad schools are full of cheap labor already, and people barely speak any English.

    I’m talking mostly grad school here, because that’s where the preponderance of foreigners is. I don’t think the numbers are high enough at the undergrad level to stop the University Bubble from popping. For the State-supported schools** the State governments are going to get wise when their populations get wise to the fact that there is no benefit for the State coming out of them.

    .

    * It may not be quite as cheap as they think, once you account for industrial and defense espionage – see the stories on “LA Woman” Si Chen and “California Professor” Yi-Chi Shih.

    ** and for Mr. Unz here, these are the ones I’ve been observing. It’s true they don’t get as big a proportion of their money from the States’ taxpayers anymore. I don’t think those are the big “hedge funds”. The Ivies are in a league all by themselves, and I neither have respect for, nor keep up with, the Harvards and such.

  131. @Ron Unz

    No objection here. Note, however, that even under the assumptions I used the headcount problem is still prohibitive. 1 vs. 3 or 4 is not a lot better than 1 vs. 10.

    And if PhDs are IQ 140 — don’t think so. Varies by field, but for most outside the sciences 125 is about right, at least in my experience. 140 is rare.

    Counterinsurgency

  132. swamped says:

    “And it is simply frivolous to study for a Humanities degree—except for the fact that benighted employers still require a college degree. (For example, it’s very difficult to become a U.S. Army officer without one)”…& it’s very difficult to get a government managerial job of any kind without one. You could become a CEO of Microsoft or Oracle or Apple without a college degree but probably not CEO of the USA. The last U.S. President without a sheepskin was Harry Truman & the last prez who never bothered with college at all was Grover Cleveland, who still managed to pass the bar by apprenticing as a clerk at a law firm. More proof that you don’t even need a college degree to be a lawyer, let alone an electrician (although the ABA requires one now for show). Andrew Johnson had no degree or formal schooling of any kind; & his running mate on the 1864 RepublicanPresidential ticket , a Mr. Lincoln – still considered one of the greatest President’s of all time – didn’t have much more. But today it’s just as hard to imagine a president without a diploma as it is to imagine a president as inspiring as Lincoln. All presidential candidates & Cabinet & other top appointees not only need the degree but usually one from a prestigious institution. In the 2016 Presidential race, it was Penn vs. Yale; in 2012 it was Harvard Business School vs. Harvard Law School; in 2008, Annapolis vs. Harvard Law; in 2004, Yale vs. Yale; in 2000, Harvard Law School vs. Harvard Business School; in ’96, Yale Law School vs. Washburn U. (?!)(guess who won?); ’92, Yale vs. Yale Law; ’88, Harvard Law vs. Yale. The outlier , of course is Eureka College in 1980, but for the most part, if you want a shot at serious political power today, you’d better be in the status-school loop, if only for the company you keep. A gentleman’s C will do.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  133. swamped says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    “In the US, intellectual life has always been dominated by the Yankees [1], informally known as ‘New Englanders’, the region north of NYC… So that’s it for the Yankees and Yankeedom [1]. They’ve been done in by their own belief in universalism backed by the full weight of their social organization… Good bye, good luck, and may you someday develop a bit of humility towards the other American sociologies”…not as long as they have the New England Patriots!

  134. @Achilles Wannabe

    Post Modernism is Jewish. The question is why did your WASP’s give it up to the Jews

    They didn’t just give up, they were enthusiastic about it. The 1950s were the era of the enormous organization, and people were overjoyed to give up their autonomy both mental and physical to the corporation. Discussion of ideas was forbidden. It remained so until quite recently, and may be changing now only after the widespread abuses of the Obama years and post-Obama TDS. To be blunt, complaisant ubcyruisuty (at about an IQ 110 level for office workers) was the preferred personality for everybody by Whites.

    Which strengthens your question.

    OK, best answer; I’ve been reading Kevin MacDonald’s _individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition_ (available free as an Amazon Prime book, $22 or so as paperback). He actually has an answer. His book has neither index nor TOC in the Kindle version, but start looking for his work on puritans, which is summarized at Loc 5467 in the Kindle version. He and I, working independently, have hit on the same general conclusion (although is work is a lot better than mine): the end of resistance to non-European groups (in the US and Europe) was due to internal intellectual development. McDonald emphasizes the pathologies of individualism (esp. the idea that every H. Sap. is identical to every other, planet wide) whereas i emphasize the politics and the stunning effect of WW II, but the conclusions are about the same. If you really want an answer, I’d recommend the book mentioned above, perhaps supplemented by Woodward’s _American Nations_ and Ron Unz’s current article “understanding WW II”.

    I maintain that it is the internal dynamics of the White group that are largely to blame in that they not only paralyzed resistance, but actually welcomed having somebody tell them what to do. I remember the heyday of that — it was almost as if God had spoken to the Whites and told them that from now on outgroups and non-Christian religions would be lifting the burden of responsibility off of their shoulders. They were so _happy_ [1]. Kind of appalling when you realize what these organizations did to their kids.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] See
    William H. Whyte.
    _The Organization Man_
    originally published 1956.
    Whyte was an old school editor of _Fortune_ magazine, and he reports (with a sort of amazed incredulity) the happiness I report above..

  135. Mike P says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Looks like you read my last book. Marcus Aurelius, certainly, comes to mind.

    Well, Marcus Aurelius ended a good thing for the Roman empire when he foisted his useless and depraved son Commodus on them as his successor. He himself, as well as his three forerunners Trajan, Hadrian, and Antoninus Pius had been hand-picked for ability, regardless of family connections.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  136. Alfred says:
    @Alden

    Medical school in Britain including Ireland is only 5 years.

    Only Veterinarian school is more difficult to enter.

    The doctors’ union – The British Medical Association – has severely restricted training places for the past 50 years. That is why the NHS would collapse without doctors from India and Nigeria.

  137. augusto says:

    oh, yeah?
    (quote)poorer pupils be allowed into “elite universities.” They fail to understand that, if this happens, “elite people” will just send their children to university somewhere else and the original university will cease to be regarded as “elite.” (unquote)
    And what about societies allowing ALL pupils equally to first class universities, or using a different 3RD level system like China?
    So you say we are fully at the mercy of elite people and of future “elite ” employers – you forget that
    capitalism tends to monopoly and so to very few employers…
    You as a good old westerner, you forget that within maximum 30 years… the model, the ideal, the benchmark of success will be China? And the US/Europe just a footprint note? …
    And the softpower
    world will be turned inside out for the very same reasons? (where do you thin the 54 countries of Africa, the 20 so of Latin America will seek inspiration and P.r.o.t.e.c.t.i.o.n ???)
    And that the one who solely indicates all the path China runs as leader is the China Communist Party?
    Where will then your ‘elite’ choices take refuge or fight for?

  138. @swamped

    You could become a CEO of Microsoft or Oracle or Apple without a college degree

    Yes, you probably could. But you wouldn’t be able to become a CEO, meaning competent and effective CEO, of Boeing, Caterpillar, Siemens, MTU or FANUC Robotics without serious engineering background. I will omit here R&D part altogether. You may thank US media and primarily this very same humanities “educated” punditry class who were hard at work for decades at removing correct understanding of real hi-tech industry from public by substituting it with code-writing and assembling iPhones (or Teslas). I’ll give you a hint–designing, testing and manufacturing a modern jet engine with FADEC to a high specifications is on several orders of magnitude more complex task than writing some “solutions”.

  139. @Mike P

    Well, Marcus Aurelius ended a good thing for the Roman empire

    Marcus Aurelius was used merely as an example of the King-Philosopher, who he certainly was. Modern “philosophers” wouldn’t be qualified to maintain, pardon my French, basic sewer system of the basic commercial building, forget running effectively modern state, let alone win any war. Explaining to them, as an example, what Net-Centric Warfare is and how it influences, say, a political dimension of state’s (or nation’s) activities would simply freeze them. 21 Century is a bitch with its technology requiring totally different type of “philosophy”.

    • Replies: @Mike P
  140. @Achilles Wannabe

    People, any people, try to externalize their internal problems. Here, many people say “it is the Jews” who have done this. And many Jewish representatives say “No it is not, so I’ll call you names and waste your time until you go away”. Punch and Judy theater, a wish to have some other group (Jew or non-jew) entirely responsible for things. I’ve always liked “Waiting for the barbarians” as a description of the entire West after WW II:
    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51294/waiting-for-the-barbarians

    Kevin McDonald’s _Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition_ offers what I think is a good explanation of how this state of affairs came about.

    Actual change is coming as the current system runs out of resources and starts to fail.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Achilles Wannabe
  141. It should be obvious that granting degrees for opinions is ridiculous. The entirety of the ‘Humanities’ is nothing but opinions dictated from upon high by the last set of these useless graduates. The ‘Social Sciences’ are similarly a fraudulent attempt to associate science with what is largely opinion. Only the STEM areas of study have empirical evidence to back up their assertions and their graduates end up producing all the tangible things in the entire world.

    If someone can successfully argue that there is some worth in the Humanities and Social Sciences, then cap their degrees at Bachelors until such time that they can prove with empirical evidence that what they claim is in fact truth. Handing out degrees above that limit for what today are just opinions makes no sense.

    Once these bogus areas of study are publicly exposed for the frauds that they surely are, interest in them will wane and, if we’re lucky, disappear leaving only the STEM fields as higher education options.

    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
    • LOL: eah
  142. @in the middle

    Utah wasn’t demographically, say, North Carolina when you were attending college and Utah still, by and large, is not a negro magnet. So I guess the college administrators had to find another demographic to work their scam on.

  143. @Counterinsurgency

    The fundamental issue of the Civil War was the irreconcilable difference of national policy on the use of the western territories, seized by the United States from Mexico and Indians. There was no will in Congress or in the nation to end slavery until it became seen as a tool to shorten the war and punish the rebels. Radical Abolitionism was never more than a politically impotent fringe ideology, but it provided a convenient external enemy for the slaveholders to use to distract and frighten increasingly disaffected southern whites.

    The southern planter aristocracy became convinced that its economic survival depended on expansion because decades of intensive tobacco and cotton cultivation in the south was depleting the soil, resulting in ever-diminishing crop yields. The American people, however, clearly wanted these fertile lands to be open for settlement by free white families.

    It is highly unlikely, given the character of their leadership, that the “erring sisters” ever intended to “depart in peace.” They left the Union only after they had lost their long-held control of the executive branch of the federal government, in order to pursue their goal, westward expansion, by other means.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  144. @ThreeCranes

    HBD is real.

    (I believe HBD, along with 👌 and six gorillion, has been labeled “hate speech” by the ADL.)

  145. @J. Alfred Powell

    ” that a lot of them who went to college simply wasted their time, and that in the Service we had found great deficiencies in the training in simple mathematics, ability to write legibly and with clarity of expression, and that as a matter of fact in the case of a good many university graduates their education was not much use in preparing them for military service or for that matter for any other practical work.” (Forrestal Diaries p. 356)”

    To reflect on my father, none of that rings true. He graduated from a small southern hick town HS in 1945. He was in the last class of eleventh grade graduates as the War Department imposed the 12 year high school diploma thereafter. I’m guessing his IQ was around 110-120. His childhood home life, while not one of abject poverty (in its day) was not especially advantageous either in terms of economics, physical comforts or family functionality. Thrift and pride were about the only things that kept it out of the “White trash” zone of the day.

    By 1954 (without further formal education) he designed and drafted the plans for the construction of his first owner occupied dwelling which he speculatively had built in an undeveloped rural fringe of a small town. By 1957 he had sold the house for a substantial gain, bought a decent downscale house, quit his job and used the difference in housing to finance the start up of a family merchantile business that prospered until the middle 1980s. He designed, built and flew several homebuilt airplanes in his spare time. He also had several friends with eleventh grade educations from the same school system who had similar and even greater successes.

    It’s all anecdotal, but just sayin’.

    • Replies: @J. Alfred Powell
  146. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @jack daniels

    An IQ of 125 is too low to enter the ranks of PhDs, who are generally over 140, depending on the subject. Influential professors are presumably drawn from the top fraction of PhDs.

    Richard Feynman’s IQ score was 126 (in his bio and his sister confirmed it). He got his Ph.D. in physics from Princeton and was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics. Ron Unz once had lunch with Feynman and said was awed by Feynman’s brilliance.

    William Shockley’s IQ score was 129, then 125 when tested a year later (his 2007 bio). He got a Ph.D. in physics from MIT and was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics.

    Luis Alvarez’s IQ score was below 135 (he failed to qualify for Terman study). He got his Ph.D. in physics from Chicago and was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics.

    Francis Crick’s IQ score was 115. He got his Ph.D. in physics from Cambridge and went into the field of biology and was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology/Medicine.

    • Replies: @Houston 1992
  147. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz

    Btw, Ron, I’m waiting for your thoughts on the Harvard Asian discrimination case ruling. The NYT was honest enough to give you credit for the research proving this discrimination so I’m surprised they haven’t reached out to you after the ruling.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  148. Yadayada says:
    @lysias

    The dissolution of the monasteries was a looting project

    • Agree: utu
  149. Mike P says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Marcus Aurelius was used merely as an example of the King-Philosopher

    Right. And my point (made somewhat obliquely) was that it is hard to find a good example.

    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
  150. @Andrei Martyanov

    It seems there is simply to little a margin between bright and semi-dull. We should envision human nature as too limited to scale into anything that changes the systemics of society in the long term, but by mere hazardous, random betting …and once out of a few tens of thousand times, and by a single processor(individual), outside of any conventional credit, winning.

    We cannot select at the age that matters, the human material that has the potential to envision and eventually, once in a while, produces original outcomes. We cannot and we want not. The rest is Aspirin, or for the US centrists, Advil for the brain.

  151. @Anonymous

    Crock at 115 IQ seems implausibly low given his ww2 work and double helix
    Do you have a cite ?

  152. Alden says:

    Read the British, not, Irish application information. They come right out and say we only want former colonial non Europeans. Maybe if the schools accepted some White British natives, the NHS wouldn’t need all those foreigners.

    Compared to most advanced (White) countries
    Britain has a lot of med schools.

  153. @Jim bob Lassiter

    I don’t mean to endorse Forrestal’s comments, just cite them. My sense is that, in some parts of America, anyways (probably excluding the South), the level of instruction, the quantity and quality of the curriculum, in grammar schools and in high schools, in 1930, say, was very significantly in advance of today’s average, and the level of instruction in colleges still moreso. In the 20s and 30s in America, the consensus was for disarmament, non-intervention, the pursuit of peace, live-and-let live, egalitarian social values, and in many communities the high school curriculum reflected this consensus. Big wealth and big business, on the other hand, seem to have already placed an iron grip on colleges before 1900, as is clear from Veblen’s discussion, for instance, or Upton Sinclair’s The Goose Step (c. 1920), and tightened it in response to the strong progressive upsurge of 1900-1916, which became a casualty of “preparedness” and official and unofficial repression on a national scale during the war.

  154. JackOH says:
    @Ron Unz

    Yep.

    My local less selective state university I’ve sometimes described as a jobs program with a schoolhouse attached, a regional, branded entertainment center, a day care center for young adults with a bookstore attached, an asylum for yesteryear’s four-eyed kids who became professors to get back at those who’d taunted them.

    I think of 1000 freshmen, only 100 will have a job requiring a college degree in six years after matriculating.

    The school once had a good reputation as a local backstop for the sons and daughters of blue-collar ethnics, talented Blacks, and Puerto Ricans. It still does, but undeservedly so. I’m certain the school is under state scrutiny for a raft of unsavory practices.

  155. @Anonymous

    The lawsuit should have been narrower in purpose.

    It should have conceded AA for blacks and American Indians.

    It should have argued Latin American whites should count as whites.

    It should have called for meritocracy only among whites(Latino whites included), Asians, and Jews.

    • Replies: @eah
  156. @anonymous

    With a fist full of hunreds, that’s how Marx found them, where doesn’t matter.

  157. @Alden

    “the WASP ascendancy was just a myth”

    That is an original idea. No, I think the WASP Ascendency was real. It was not a question of numbers. If it was, there never would have been an American entry into WW2 because German, and CAtholic Americans -actually most Americans – didn’t want it right up until Pearl Harbor. However Roosevelt, the Anlo elite and organized Jewry wanted to bring Fascism down. Fascism offered an alternative to Anglo Jewish capitalism – free markets and usury – and did so in the middle of the great depression. Something had to be done about it. The WASP got it done. But then what happened to the WASP? Today, who even talks abut them? They do seem like a myth. But I do not think Jews rule because they are so intelligent though it doesn’t hurt. I think Jews rule because there is something Jewish value-wise about Anglo societies as opposed to Germanic societies. Why this is so is my question.

  158. @J. Alfred Powell

    Second reply:

    Kevin McDonald’s new book _Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition_ discusses the importance of Puritan (New England / Yankeedom) thought to the emergence of the present system. It is well worth reading.

    In practice, I have run across many more Yankee enforcers than I have Jewish enforcers, and the Yankee enforcers thoroughly believed what they were enforcing. True enough that the Jewish “intellectuals”[1] of the 1950s tweaked Puritan thought, they didn’t tweak it much.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] Writings by “intellectuals” (any sort) of the 1950s don’t hold up very well. You get the idea that they didn’t have much intellect. It was all grandiose promises that, in the event, could not be kept. Example: Social policy back then was to produce students of absolute equality in education _and in reasoning ability_. I got caught up in that and hurt badly enough to remember it. The literature said that educators would use drugs as needed to raise the dumb students up and dumb the smart students down.
    I know, an atrocity, but not only is it what they said, it’s what they later did (fortunately I was ot of their reach by the time drugs came into common use).
    Turned out the drugs only worked one way — dumbing the smart ones down. That and teaching almost nothing — dumb students could learn nothing just as well as smart drugged students.
    Add in the dumb students beating up the smart drugged ones and the ideal of identical results came closer.
    The ideal was students who tested the same, and the 1950s ideal of identical output is still being achieved — one hears of “black / white” gap in testing, and continued efforts to decrease it. Output may be almost unemployable, but if so that’s too bad. Th intent is to make output testing uniform, not to employ graduates.

    This was supported by the “intellectuals”, is a truly stupid thing to do, and is here mentioned to show how non-intellectual _all_ “intellectuals were”. I should add a few things about how liberal education actually blinded people to the disaster of Communist rule in Russia and under Mao in China, but I’ve said enough already. “Intellectuals”. Ha! Seriously stupid people who wrapped jargon around themselves like a cocoon around a pupal stage moth.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
  159. eah says:
    @Priss Factor

    It should have conceded AA for blacks and American Indians.

    Why should plaintiffs have “conceded” that? — Harvard class of 2023 is 14.3% black (given a class size of 2009, that’s 287 students), greater than the black share of the US population — given test scores at the very top of the distribution, which is where Harvard draws (or ought to draw) its students, there is simply no way — no way — there would be so many black admittees without heavy affirmative action — reducing black admittees to well under 5%, which is doubtless appropriate on merit, would immediately free up 200 places.

    Making themselves at home in Harvard Yard — check out the fotos: looks like they’re trying to recreate Noah’s Ark, or populate a zoo.

    Affirmative action at elite universities is absurd — these less-qualified students can simply study somewhere else.

    Typical cuck nonsense — way too much has already been “conceded”.

    • Replies: @eah
  160. eah says:
    @eah

    link

    If anything, one could say the lawsuit against Harvard was a foolish waste of money — the ‘axiomatic’ view of the American Establishment is that diversity is a Good Thing where “the end justifies the means” — see Grutter v Bollinger, which upheld the “compelling interest” language that first appeared in the Bakke case — so the (sad) truth is, any court has sufficient precedent to find against the plaintiffs in such cases — it’s pointless to ‘concede’ anything.

  161. @Emslander

    To a Brit parent Berkeley just sounds exotic and learned. To US graduates it’s another dysfunctional shadow of past quality.

    It really depends on what you study, so it makes no sense to generalize like that.

    Academic Ranking of World Universities in Natural Sciences and Mathematics – 2016

    http://shanghairanking.com/FieldSCI2016.html

    Here are the top ten universities in their most recent ranking within this domain:

    1. UC-Berkeley, 2. Stanford, 3. Princeton, 4. Harvard, 5. MIT,
    6. Cal-Tech, 7. Cambridge, 8. Tokyo, 9. ETH-Zurich, 10. UCLA.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  162. @Counterinsurgency

    The key fallacy that ruled in the 1950s (and continues in a diluted form to this day) was that “social science” would work sorta like science.

    Any problem could be fixed through a complete analysis of data, and then we would all live together in a perfect world.

    Gigantic institutions (government, education, non-profit, even corporate) were built in pursuit of this dream.

    The result–total and complete failure–and an attempt at censoring any and all critics of these bloated zombie institutions.

    If you want to understand the problem behind the problem I would encourage you to check out Rupert Sheldrake’s classic “banned Ted Talk” on the fallacies of “science”:

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  163. @unit472

    Most parents cannot afford a private school or tutors.

    It’s time for tuition vouchers to end the government schools’ advantage, and a universal basic income to replace the welfare state bureaucracy.

  164. @Fox

    At the same time there is a mad building boom at universities. Where’s all the money coming from?

    I could tell you – but someone would have to kill me.

  165. @Been_there_done_that

    Academic Ranking of World Universities in Natural Sciences and Mathematics – 2016

    All those “rankings” are a complete BS, no matter how one tweaks all kinds of criteria. Just to give an example: effectively Bauman MGTU produced world’s first Soviet space program (Korolev, Chelomei bunch of cosmonauts), Russian/Soviet aviation (Zhukovsky, Tupolev, Sukhoi, Myasishev), hell, even German national-socialism was created by its alumni–Alfred Rosenberg. None of them were Nobel Prize winner–yet they created world’s best rockets, space stations, rocket engines, best fighter planes and strategic bombers, a dazzling array of the state-of-the-art weapons and were behind nuclear power revolution, just to name a few. Do you see this institution in these rankings? I know how those rankings and other “models” are created–it is all complete crap, same as “quotation index” and publication mills. Do you want to see what entrance exams in MGTU require? Good luck for Harvard or MIT prospective students solving couple of entrance exam problems in Physics or Math to MGTU.

  166. MGTU:

    Do you see this institution in these rankings?

    Perhaps their supposed merits are kept so secretive that they can defy outside assessment.

    Maybe they’re just a “one trick pony” institute, of which there are plenty in the world.

    It could be that their published output is only Russian language, hence “under the radar”.

    It’s possible their aeronautical engineering expertise is outside the scope of science and math.

    You ought to file a complaint with MGTU if you feel they didn’t promote their expertise.

    The point of my initial response was merely to counteract the unwarranted supposition about UC-Berkeley.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  167. @Been_there_done_that

    Perhaps their supposed merits are kept so secretive that they can defy outside assessment.

    Yeah, sure. So you, obviously, never heard of Korolev or Tupolev.

    http://www.bmstu.ru/en/

    That pretty much explains your post. You are aware that that humanity flies into space and uses nuclear power, right?

    • Replies: @Been_there_done_that
  168. @Miggle

    Mig, l agree – but would say that the SJW’s are liberals and merely useful idiots for TPTB.
    There are no leftists, as you describe, providing effective action -and may l add -standing firm and screaming truth to power against the secret- police alphabet agencies and their pliant lackeys in the media.
    I see the same old Birkenstock hippie types who have all the time in the world to protest every Tuesday across the street from my shop here in Philly; not one of them will risk calling out the secret police- ( and both criminal mafia “ political” parties) in fact they are oblivious and outright angered by assertions that they are essentially advocating for their version of the not -so -deep -state.

  169. Russ says:
    @Mulegino1

    So who won the fight in the parking lot afterward?

  170. This was supported by the “intellectuals”, is a truly stupid thing to do, and is here mentioned to show how non-intellectual _all_ “intellectuals were”. I should add a few things about how liberal education actually blinded people to the disaster of Communist rule in Russia and under Mao in China, but I’ve said enough already. “Intellectuals”. Ha! Seriously stupid people who wrapped jargon around themselves like a cocoon around a pupal stage moth.

    You’re really talking about leftists that only fancy themselves as intellectuals and then will ex-communicate anyone that questions egalitarian orthodoxy.

    Yes the social sciences are filled with leftist and egalitarian junk from the 50’s and 60’s and they still quote it today as if it is established science. A lot of it was written by a handful of egalitarians and is not “peer reviewed” as one might assume.

    But I’m not convinced that the social sciences are filled with idiots. If anything it is a certain personality type that is attracted to them. A non-questioning type that wants to believe in blank slate and that “the man” is holding everyone down. Then there are also cynical personalities that are fully aware of the flaws but believe we need to be dishonest about certain issues (or most in the social sciences) or fascism will come back. So basically the naive do-gooder and the dishonest socialist.

    • Agree: Counterinsurgency
    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  171. @Andrei Martyanov

    …never heard of Korolev or Tupolev.

    These men were aerospace engineers and designers at a time when the USSR was extremely secretive in that industrial endeavor, and both of them died nearly half a century ago. This is barely relevant to a contemporary assessment, based on a published methodology, of top university engagements in the specific fields of Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  172. @Counterinsurgency

    Yeah, thanks. I am getting MacDonald’s book. I do not mean to suggest that “the Jews” are THE
    prime mover in any of our problems though they are obviously among the major players. I do think that our Western individualism needs analysis because it is both our strength and our tragic flaw. But I also think there is something special about the anglo – a reciprocity with the Jews which has had huge effects in this country. Being neither Anglo nor Jew I am particularly curious about how these two interact. Enjoy your comments

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  173. @Been_there_done_that

    This is barely relevant to a contemporary assessment, based on a published methodology

    Again, this is the point: “methodology” is fraud, or in more lay language–BS. Per contemporary assessment namely 21st century: do you know what GLONASS is, any idea which ships and rocket engines take NASA to space, do you know why West lost conventional (and nuclear too, actually) arms race? I’ll give you a hint–it is one way or another related to MGTU and a hist of STEM top-notch schools it sprouted, including such institutions as MAI. I offered above, in a post, to compare pathetic academic level of SAT/ACT required for acceptance into say MIT or Berkley with entrance exams’ requirements in Physics and Mathematics for those who enter examination process after taking EGE tests on the exit from schools. So simple. This is not to mention that I knew and know quite a few people from US universities from STEM field. The ONLY thing US Universities have on the rest of the world and even this gap is closing are their magnificent science labs.

    designers at a time when the USSR was extremely secretive in that industrial endeavor

    Whole scientific world knows who Sergei Korolev, Andrei Tupolev, Nikolai Dollezal or Pavel Sukhoi were and what they left from scientific and engineering schools to a very tangible things one can observe today on TV, Internet and in media. All of them and many more living are one way or another connected to MGTU. So this beaten to death “secret argument” is just that–BS. I omit elaborating here on a larger point of, in general, most “ratings” based on primarily Western “methodologies” are fraud, be that in purely academic, economic and military issues.

  174. Mike P says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    do you know why West lost conventional (and nuclear too, actually) arms race?

    I don’t mean to take away one iota from the Russians’ accomplishments, I have always considered them a highly talented people. But the key reason why the West lost the arms race is simply corruption – both moral and financial. The state of the education system doesn’t help, but many other sectors of technical development that draw their employees from the same pool as the arms industry are a lot less dysfunctional than the latter. Of course, the rot is spreading, as evident from Boeing’s ongoing debacle.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  175. @Observator

    That’s one of the views on the Civil War. It became generally known after about AD 1960, and is frequently associated with the “Civil War doesn’t mean anything racially because …” thesis. There are other views.

    I think you’d be interested in Kevin MacDonald’s _Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition_, which assigns a much larger role to abolitionists than the does the view you recapitulated. MacDonald makes a very strong case.

    Counterinsurgency

  176. @Achilles Wannabe

    Thanks for the compliment!

    I do not mean to suggest that “the Jews” are THE
    prime mover in any of our problems though they are obviously among the major players. I do think that our Western individualism needs analysis because it is both our strength and our tragic flaw. But I also think there is something special about the Anglo – a reciprocity with the Jews which has had huge effects in this country.

    I’m in full agreement here. And after reading MacDonald’s book, I think you’ll be even firmer in your belief about the Anglo. MacDonald has plenty to say about NW Europe as well.

    Counterinsurgency

  177. @Mike P

    I don’t mean to take away one iota from the Russians’ accomplishments,

    Neither am I trying to degrade or diminish West’s in general, and US in particular, very real tangible accomplishments in fundamental and applied science–this goes without saying. But having said all that–the state of American public schools can only be described in one word when related to STEM–a catastrophe. This, automatically, drags down higher education. As one my acquaintance, Ph.D in Mathematics, taught in 2000s and early 2010s in one of the best California universities: it is a normal occurrence to meet students with great SAT scores and entering STEM who cannot factor simple quadratic trinomial. The meme of American math and physics Olympiad national team (all Chinese, Hindus and Jews) is not really a meme–it is a testimony of the US public education deliberately dumbing down courses. As per military field–oh, boy, the problem is not only technological–such as US could not design and build simple supersonic anti-shipping missile before this missile became so expensive that Congress shut down the whole program. Not just that, the problem is cultural and doctrinal. As per Boeing, they should recover–too great of a history and achievements. I still love B-747 and 777. In fact, I loved B-727 too. But yes, I would rather fly today West coast-East one on A-321. Jet Blue A-321s are immaculate and a great service with wonderful leg room.

    • Replies: @gmachine1729
  178. anonymous[248] • Disclaimer says:

    ““freelance fringe” of academia—who would hang around university towns and do occasional university tutoring in addition to other work, such as journalism”

    It’s for the tail. So much sweet tail.

  179. @Justvisiting

    If you want to understand the problem behind the problem I would encourage you to check out Rupert Sheldrake’s classic “banned Ted Talk” on the fallacies of “science”

    Done.

    Agree that “social science” wasn’t either: its practitioners were more anti-social than social, and they wee politics, not science. Still are, hence Antifa, doxing, firing from jobs as auxillary parts of social science practice.

    Sheldrake’s critique of science is interesting. Science is just as mystic and dogma ridden as anything else, that part is true. It rests on the idea that there are symbol systems (mathematics, human languages) that permit understanding of the physical universe, hence at least some questions can be answered. And, in practice, quite a few questions can be answered. Quite few can’t, also — elementary chaos theory [1], NP complete problems [2], and the Abelian sandpile model [3] suggest that some physical problems exist that can never be solved. Science is thus necessarily incomplete forever. In fact, nobody knows how Homo Sapiens, supposedly developed by evolution to survive in the wild with a troop of other Homo Sapiens, can possibly have a mind that can know about events in the center of the Milky Way galaxy. Did the brain structure capable of that just happen to evolve? Seems unlikely, but what other answer is there? Why does the human ability to invent different mathematics tend to invent mathematics that describes the entire universe? Why is there any connection at all between human mathematics and, say, the motion of the planets of our star system? No answer, and in that sense science has no foundation.

    That’s not as confining as it may seen; scientific theories predict, although we don’t know why. There are plenty of unsolved and very important physical problems, some of
    which can be solved an others not. The difficulty is in _picking the right problems_ and _asking questions that can be answered_ in some useful way.

    The social sciences never did quite ask questions that could be answered, just questions that they could lie about having answered. Population genetics and human history are just now this decade starting to formulate questions that can be answered, and that might really be answered in a relaible way given another 50 years or so of development in biology. Social sciences were, as you said and I said above, neither social nor science.

    So I’d say that Sheldrake is right about science being constrained by a refusal to consider certain questions (“dogmas”). However, he apparently can’t ask dogma relate questions that can be answered, and so he doesn’t have a solution, hence his questions aren’t all that interesting (at least to me). A question with no answer is a mildly interesting diversion, but no more. At least Sheldrake is simply posing the questions, not claiming to answer them, and deserves some praise because nobody else is doing even that.

    Counterinsurgency

    1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Theory

    2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/210829/what-is-an-np-complete-in-computer-science

    2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Theory

    3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
    , @eah
  180. @John Johnson

    I think that the term “intellectuals” goes back to the “intelligentsia” of Eastern Europe [1]; an “intellectual” is a member of the “intelligentsia”. As I remember the account, when Imperial Russia took over Poland they tried “nation building”, sending locals to school so that they could administer their own country according to Imperial Russian standards [2]. The graduates of these schools who made it into the bureaucracy were called the “intelligentsia” by the Russians, and proved to be a source of very strongly held anti Imperial Russian revolutionary sentiments, supposedly validated by their education and position (both provided by Imperial Russia). Stalin tried much the same “educate a new middle and upper-middle class” plan, and avoided the revolutionary aspect by claiming to _be_ the revolution himself, and destroying anybody who did more than parrot Party slogans.
    “Intelligentsia” thus means, in practice, a group of half educated (and often half-bright) people with an exaggerated sense of their own knowledge and a serious desire to change things in some unworkable way. An “intellectual” is a member of the Intelligentsia.

    For examples of intellectuals, look at the public figures with TDS.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia

    2] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/intelligentsia
    Note Russian origin of the term.

  181. @follyofwar

    they keep increasing tuition and fees

    No, they keep increasing tuition fees.

    Actual tuition is disappearing, along with the proper meaning of the word. The corruption can be seen as early as 1828:

    TUI’TION, noun [Latin tuitio, from tueor, to see, behold, protect, etc.; Latin duco, to lead.]

    1. Guardianship; superintending care over a young person; the particular watch and care of a tutor or guardian over his pupil or ward.

    2. More especially, instruction; the act or business of teaching the various branches of learning. We place our children under the preceptors of academies for tuition [This is now the common acceptation of the word.]

    3. The money paid for instruction. In our colleges, the tuition is from thirty to forty dollars a year.

  182. @Andrei Martyanov

    “...methodology” is fraud, or in more lay language–BS.

    Are you suggesting that MGTU ought to be listed within the world’s top five universities, pertaining to the field of science and mathematics, in an alternative ranking, based on objective criteria?

    If so, what would be such fair and objective criteria? Which, if any, of the ten universities mentioned in post #165 would still remain in a top ten ranking done according to your standards?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  183. @Andrei Martyanov

    Off topic, but reading more about the Pacific War, which I knew little about in detail before, I can’t help but realize how formidable the Japanese were. They really stretched pretty far across the Pacific about halfway really at their height. They really destroyed by the British and Dutch (and also Americans) in Southeast Asia at one point.

    It seems like the bombings on targets in Japan from bases in China by the US air force did significant, decisive damage. The thing is later on it wasn’t really a fair game anymore. Soviets had already pretty much done the bulk of the work against the Nazis, which meant the US and UK then had more responses to dispose against Japan, which was fighting against Anglos in the south and east of the Pacific, and with a large Chinese population with massive US/UK material aid resisting them on the other side. Not to mention the oil bottleneck. I am just saying that given their relative size, the Japanese were extremely formidable. I see the same with respect to Russia today. The population is only 150 million but militarily, they can do colossal damage, not to mention that Russia is blessed with natural resources.

    Also the Japanese achieved so much in science and engineering. World class work in pure math and theoretical physics up to the most difficult applied fields. Of course, as a losing nation in WWII, they were much hindered post-war.

    In terms of actual naval and air force projection on the Pacific and also Southeast Asia, China has a long way to go compared to where Japan was WWII. There are some idiot Chinese who look down on Russia, see them as poor, even say that Guangdong province in far south China, where Shenzhen, Guangzhou, HK, etc is, itself is equivalent or higher than Russia (measuring by GDP). They don’t realize that GDP is nothing when people of smaller numbers but superior military force can easily take it from you. China I believe has gotten a long way in terms of air force and navy in Pacific and Southeast Asia the last decade, still they do to some degree lack the right political posture, much of which springs from lack of experience. All the wars that China has fought have been land wars, with minimal air or navy component. China has proven herself in land wars close to home but power projection far from home via navy and air requires much higher level and is what much defines a superpower. This may well change in next decade or two or three, there might be some confrontation with US on the Pacific, with China extending further similar to what Japan did WWII. We’ll see.

    I’m curious what you think of my thoughts here.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  184. @Been_there_done_that

    Are you suggesting that MGTU ought to be listed within the world’s top five universities, pertaining to the field of science and mathematics, in an alternative ranking, based on objective criteria?

    Absolutely. Plus MAI in top 10. Per US Universities–MIT and Caltech look proper in this ranking.

    If so, what would be such fair and objective criteria?

    Applicability in terms of tangible technological achievements. In other words, not some abstract “scientific” output judged by publications but impact on actual scientific-technological progress of humanity.

    • Replies: @Been_there_done_that
  185. @gmachine1729

    I’m curious what you think of my thoughts here.

    Generally–agree. Per this:

    There are some idiot Chinese who look down on Russia, see them as poor, even say that Guangdong province in far south China, where Shenzhen, Guangzhou, HK, etc is, itself is equivalent or higher than Russia (measuring by GDP).

    I guess the events with Missile Attack Warning System, Center-2019 maneuvers and CR-929 development (and, rather lack of progress in Comac-919), and nuclear power stations contract have all answers to those people. Real hi-tech, even for all China’s impressive achievements, is an extremely hard thing and requires more than just money–it needs a scientific school which is much harder to develop.

  186. Mike P says:

    Real hi-tech, even for all China’s impressive achievements, is an extremely hard thing and requires more than just money–it needs a scientific school which is much harder to develop.

    That sort of scientific achievement needs more than money, and also more than just money and talent – it needs an ethos of honesty, rigour, and perseverance. The modern trend of judging “excellence” simply by paper output per unit of time, which is an important metric in all those silly beauty contests (a.k.a. “rankings”), makes it difficult for scientists to focus on the hard but important problems.

    China has imported too much of that American academic culture of bedazzlement. They should start sending more of their young people elsewhere for training.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  187. @Andrei Martyanov

    Applicability in terms of tangible technological achievements.”

    So you’re really referring to engineering rather than basic science and mathematics.

    How about chip design and software? For instance, central processing units, graphical processing units, programmable integrated circuits, micro-controllers, the kind of innovations coming from California’s extended Silicon Valley. That ought to put UC-Berkeley and Stanford at the top of your ranking too.

    Is there anything analogous to Silicon Valley in the Moscow or St. Petersburg region, perhaps on a smaller scale? Or do the majority of graduates from those Russian universities you cited move to northern California to begin their careers?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  188. @Been_there_done_that

    Or do the majority of graduates from those Russian universities you cited move to northern California to begin their careers?

    You need to update yourself on a number of key issues re: Russian grown talent–accidentally grown in Russian universities–this is not to mention some funny little things called naukograds such as Skolkovo or NGU and some other places, especially under auspices of such organization as Rosatom. US leads the world, for now, in chip design. I do not contest Berkley or Stanford as not merited to be in this list, I merely presented you with MIT as one of the most important engineering and scientific schools. Silicon Valley was all the fad in 1990s and 2000s. Silicon Valley didn’t help the United States “win” the arms race for all its designs. Using Google Translate you may review trends (through 2015) in international students here:

    https://popecon.ru/otrivki/701-kolichestvo-inostrannyh-studentov-v-stranah-mira.html

    And even then it will point out to a significant (from 23 to 18%) decrease of international students in the US. The joke that what is the US STEM university as a place in American where Russian Jews teach Chinese mathematics is increasingly valid. You may also read this (in Russian) and assess some key factors in all educational statistics.

    https://rg.ru/2017/11/13/chislo-inostrannyh-studentov-v-rossii-vyrastet-vtroe.html

    or here

    https://studyinrussia.ru/actual/articles/skolko-inostrannykh-studentov-v-rossii/

    As I already stated–most (not all) US students, even with high SAT/ACT scores, unless they received intensive private tutoring beyond the scope of public school STEM programs, will fail entrance exams to a large number (up to 50) leading Russian universities in STEM because knowledge stipulated for the entrance into them is much larger than American schools’ programs. Here is you answer to Russian computer geeks in Silicon Valley. Foreign students from near and far abroad go to study in Russia first of all science-engineering specialties and discipline, with medicine close second.

    • Replies: @Been_there_done_that
  189. @Mike P

    That sort of scientific achievement needs more than money, and also more than just money and talent – it needs an ethos of honesty, rigour, and perseverance. The modern trend of judging “excellence” simply by paper output per unit of time, which is an important metric in all those silly beauty contests (a.k.a. “rankings”), makes it difficult for scientists to focus on the hard but important problems.

    Excellent point, simply superb.

    China has imported too much of that American academic culture of bedazzlement. They should start sending more of their young people elsewhere for training.

    There are very many Chinese students in Russia, primarily in fundamental science and engineering (surprise…). I really liked your term “bedazzlement”. The whole Bologna Process is crap, as is “credit base” as opposed to rigorous program-based “education”.

  190. @Andrei Martyanov

    You may also read this (in Russian)…

    Though I don’t read Russian, I am at least familiar with the basic word PECTOPAH from prior travel.

    I was amused by the first image at the “Study in Russia” link you cited; low frontal camera angle of five young people sitting on green grass, of which two are African (male and female) and two are likely Chinese (male and female). This is the most ultra politically correct imagery than I have seen before. (Western images will usually feature only one male Negro and one female Chinese appearing in a group of five.) And in case viewers didn’t get the message the second photo depicts a Negress with glasses and fuzzy hair. The third (and last) image shows four students, all of which are Chinese. This is truly hilarious.

    Thank you for enlightening me.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  191. @Been_there_done_that

    I am not sure I follow your point (because it could be altogether a stock photo) but if you would follow the link here:

    https://studyinrussia.ru/why-russia/testimonials/

    You would be able to read responses of students (from Russia’s universities) ranging from Arab world, to France, Italy, Spain, India, US, Brazil etc. All with photos of students.

  192. @Counterinsurgency

    Good comments–you may enjoy the “Trialogues” that were discussions with Sheldrake, Terence McKenna, and the mathematician Ralph Abraham on a wide range of philosophical issues.

    https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/the-sheldrake-mckenna-abraham-trialogues

    These are the kinds of discussions that universities need to have–to teach students to really think instead of just parroting the opinions of authority figures.

    I do not claim to have answers on this stuff–I just want to see intelligent discussions about them. That is the way that human knowledge can advance.

  193. Rick0Shea says:
    @Emslander

    American ‘elite’ universities where celebrities with a lot of $ bribe the admissions office to get their underachieving children admitted.

  194. This is what contemporary ‘advanced’ capitalism IS, not a distortion of it! If you start cutting at it, you’ll be tearing out a huge chunk of the ‘middle class’. And what do you expect them to do? Carpentry? I’m not sure what the answer is but obviously Andrew Yang at least has been thinking about it.

    No it is a distortion because they aren’t doing what they claim which is studying social problems. They aren’t taking a check for any type of production which is also a distortion. Sure you can find fluff jobs built with meaningless jargon in corporate America but there is a huge difference which is that they aren’t indoctrinating students for a living.

    Forget carpentry, we would be better off paying these lying professors to sit around and watch television.

    They are doing more harm than good. Half the point of the Frankfurt School is to replace critical thinking. Basically turn students into leftist zombies.

  195. @J Alfred Powell
    But the “wokeness” of American colleges is strictly fake. They pose as “left” (or “right”) on decoy issues — mostly “identity politics” — but rigorously repress discussion of causes — notably the financial operations of the Wall Street elite kleptocracy.

    The right posturing in the colleges is centered around Chicago school ideology. Basically the belief that everything you are taught about Socialism in your other classes is wrong for economic reasons but race also doesn’t matter. Libertarian horse manure but with neat little charts and graphs and overuse of the word inelastic.

    Just don’t ask why there are so many s-thole capitalist countries. Must be a trade imbalance or something. Have they seen the graphs?

    • Replies: @J. Alfred Powell
  196. @John Johnson

    You can find a variety of jargons and theories and ideological stances in American colleges, varying by colleges, areas, and disciplines but they all have several things in common. Each has its agenda, according to which some facts are emphasized and other suppressed, and each and all viewed from one rigid perspective according to the dictates of the discipline’s regnant “authorities.” But all are tacitly agreed about what facts and what issues are allowed on the table and what aren’t. The saying that “if you want to know who rules you, consider who you are not allowed to criticize” is played out on a deeper level: what deeply matters, in the social sciences and humanities, is what you are not allowed to discuss at all, what questions are not to be asked, what facts are forbidden to investigate or state. The fake “left” and the fake “right” concur in simply refusing to treat honestly the simple facts of — for three salient example among hundreds — fractional banking, or the real distribution of wealth in America, or the concentration of corporate ownership under the control of banks — notwithstanding the fact that, if you can find them, there are published scholarly factual studies conclusively discussing all these subjects. Which are consigned to obscurity and silence. Similarly in history, for example, the vast literature published between 1919 and 1939 conclusively establishing the facts of the causes of the First World War and how America was driven into it, is simply ignored. Colleges teach official history, the facts be damned. Not only ‘recent’ history is effected. The myth that Athenian democracy depended fundamentally and extensively on slavery was concocted out of whole cloth by anti-democratic British historians in the early 19th century and conclusively debunkt about 50 years ago, in a book (Osborne, Demos) which subsequent discussion simply ignores — and evidently collaborates in ignoring, for all that its discussion is conclusive and obvious. Fifty years ago Lawrence Goodwyn’s Democratic Promise demolished the toxic lies of the likes of Hofstadter and established the genuine history of the American populist tradition on the basis of indubitable fact. Which is totally ignored in favor of continuing to parrot Hofstadter’s toxic lie. Why? In every case, because the truth threatens power. The first “charter” ever granted to a university was granted to the Sorbonne by the Vatican — to get control over its free-discussion of theological matters. Today’s American Boards of Regents are appointed to serve the interests and ends the financial-industrial-military-media-political complex — call it Wall Street.

  197. @James J. O'Meara

    “James J. O’Meara says:
    October 6, 2019 at 2:20 pm GMT

    Despite your “frivolous” description of the Humanities, Hague gets it right: only the Humanities provide EDUCATION, properly so called (as Plato and Aquinas would have agreed); the rest provide TRAINING, a kind of high-IQ barber college ”

    You tried some math and science courses, but they were too hard for you, weren’t they?

  198. eah says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    You have to distinguish between quantitative social science, which is often interesting itself as well as providing stores of interesting and useful data, and junk academia: this is where a lot of what you want to call “social science” originates: it is junk produced by junk academics (New Real Peer Review).

    People like eg Arthur Jensen, Charles Murray, and Richard Herrnstein can all conceivably be called “social scientists” — there are many others who do (and did in the past) equally interesting and valuable work.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
  199. @eah

    The concept of social science has a deep underlying fallacy.

    The only way to study any of this stuff “scientifically” would be with Monte Carlo simulations–try a social policy from _identical_ initial conditions, and run the model millions of times to see what happens.

    That is impossible of course.

    Human beings are just not understood–period.

    Large groups of human beings are even less understood.

    We don’t even know what consciousness is.

    We don’t know our place in the universe–whether we have a purpose, or not, or, if so, what it might be.

    PHDs in this field are indeed smelly stuff piled higher and deeper.

    There is no there there–that is the dirty little secret of “social science”.

    • LOL: eah
  200. johnyaya says:
    @Alfa158

    >because the science people were conducting conversations that were way over their heads

    Oh, yes. Never underestimate the inferiority complex of humanities types towards STEMs, and the constant pressure they feel to invent ever-more-absurd “theories” and wacky jargon to maintain the illusion that the difficulty of their discipline is in any way comparable to STEM.

    The truth is, we STEMs could do what they do. But they can’t do what we do.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  201. @johnyaya

    Oh, yes. Never underestimate the inferiority complex of humanities types towards STEMs, and the constant pressure they feel to invent ever-more-absurd “theories” and wacky jargon to maintain the illusion that the difficulty of their discipline is in any way comparable to STEM.

    Exactly. One of the greatest summaries of the Political and Social “Science” field in history. A stroke of genius written and acted.

    • Replies: @gmachine1729
  202. To Andrei Martyanov,

    A few questions for our esteemed ex Soviet Red Army officer.

    1) There are still many Chinese students in Russia? The best ones tend to go to US. Smaller percentage of the good ones go to Germany based on my limited observation. Of course many stay home. The people in the defense sector in China tend to have minimal experience abroad.

    In the 1950s, many of the best Chinese were sent to study or work in USSR. I personally know that there was this joint nuclear research institute in Dubna. I know of Wang Ganchang (I had read that he led a team there that discovered some particle) and also of Zhou Guangzhao (a theorist who became later US national academy of sciences member based off the work he did there, this was late 50s early 60s. Both of them returned to China afterwards and took leading roles in the nuclear weapons program.

    2) This rabidly anti-communist anti-PRC (and also anti-Russia) American Jew (now a PhD student in top US school in very theoretical subject) had said to me that he thought not nuking USSR before USSR developed its first nukes was a horrendous mistake. What are your thoughts on that? What damage could the US have possibly done between 1945-49 with the nuclear option? How easily could their bombers successfully deliver on a large Russian city and/or important military and industrial targets without being shot down?

    It’s funny because that guy even said that because Russians are white Americans have higher standards for them for freedom, democracy, and human rights, and that it Putin were compared with Xi, many would be offended.

    3) You even claim that during the Korean War, the USSR pilots in the MIG-15s beat the US ones. But this distant relative of Chiang Kai-shek/US physics professor claims otherwise based recounts of US veterans in the air force. He said that because the US doesn’t censor as much as USSR, it is probably true, or something like that. What are your thoughts on the ability and performance of Chinese army in that war. In some Chinese TV series, they claimed that a total of something like 700,000 UN casualties (this includes South Koreans), whereas the Chinese army lost 300,000. (I forget the exact, there is the difference between killed, wounded, captured, etc). I just think that exaggerated a fair bit. But the Chinese army did take Seoul for like 3 months, no debate about that.

    4) You regard, I recall, the US as having lost the arms race against USSR. Why do you say that? In what aspects was the USSR superior to US in military technology, in what aspects inferior.

    5) Finally, what do you think of China censoring the internet. Even English sites likes Quora and Twitter are out. WordPress is also very slow. They’re also shutting down VPNs. The result is that people like me who are busy busy busy don’t care enough to go on Western medias. I can at work though because company provides it. Because of the HK thing and also the national day they tightened things up even more. So Unz Review had a little trouble loading, whenever the sites have embedded YouTube or Google analytics, that can happen. Because of this, I’m not able to directly reply to your comment. That reply button doesn’t actually appear. Do you think Russia should do similarly? Russia doesn’t have its own YouTube, which means I will have more difficult time watching Soviet music videos on there. Maybe China will take it further and openly reject the Chinese citizens with Google or Facebook experience. I’ve been told that if you have those on your resume, it can and likely will be used against you in govt organization, you certainly won’t able to become a leader in one.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  203. Something else to Tovarisch Martyanov,

    what do you think of US recording all your information, emails, etc, and the backlash you trigger with the stuff you write. What about returning to Russia where you’re not by default some foreign subversive agent. You see, I felt much more comfortable talking to a Russian guy in Russia using a mail.ru.

    there is also that arguing with people who hate you in their language in media they control is a losing game. many of the guys in US who get into arguments with their bosses in America are East European with that kind of personality. i just don’t see the point. in America, you’re there to do technical work, at best be a middle manager, corporate America is not gonna promote you or really accept you as her own, as a East European too, especially a Russian with a heavy Soviet background. they only accept anti-Soviet emigrant Russians who are not really Russian like Sergei Brin who’s pissed off the Chinese government forever. To be fair, in corporate america, in terms of starting companies, getting rich, becoming an executive, Taiwanese and non PRC Chinese have done better than Russians.

    Jensen Huang – Nvidia (serious tech)
    Jerry Yang – Yahoo (he got kicked out but still)
    Microsoft had Qi Lu and still has Harry Shum reporting to the CEO (they’re mainland chinese who’re american ass-kickers basically)
    even before, there was An Wang who started Wang Laboratories which employed over 20,000 people in the 80s, he invented some storage device that was used for 20 years or something like that based off which he started the company.

    The AMD CEO is some Taiwanese female too if I remember correctly? Taiwanese did pretty damn well in semiconductors and chip design? Doesn’t Russia also go to TSMC for some stuff.

    Garmin the GPS company also worth billions also co-founded by Taiwanese.

    President of University of Maryland is this guy whose family owned 5 blocks of real estate in Shanghai and fled in 49.

    Why is it that Americans don’t give Russians as many of such opportunities (even the anti-communist ones it seems)? Maybe because the Russians are perceived as more threatening?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  204. Reality eventually overcomes affirmative action, diversity and leftist PC.

    “You’re firing me because I’m Black!? No, we hired you because you’re black. We’re firing you because you’re useless!”

  205. @Andrei Martyanov

    Hope to get a reply to my comments 207 and 208.

  206. @gmachine1729

    In the 1950s, many of the best Chinese were sent to study or work in USSR

    There are still very many Chinese students studying in Russia and, precisely, in STEM field. I don’t have the actual number (I don’t think its takes that much effort to find out) but the link I gave above contains many Chinese students and their testimonials. I expect this number to grow, but that is a separate issue.

    This rabidly anti-communist anti-PRC (and also anti-Russia) American Jew (now a PhD student in top US school in very theoretical subject) had said to me that he thought not nuking USSR before USSR developed its first nukes was a horrendous mistake. What are your thoughts on that?

    This is a very popular POV among significant strata of American policy-makers and political “scientists”, not all but many. Same goes for “destroying” Russia in the wake of the Soviet collapse. My opinion on that is extremely simple–US “elites”, even those who are supposedly Russia “scholars” are extremely badly educated and most of them are afflicted with dangerous decease of American “exceptionalism”, which is an obverse form of complex of inferiority. Russia Studies field in the West in general, and US in particular is a pseudo-academic wasteland.

    You even claim that during the Korean War, the USSR pilots in the MIG-15s beat the US ones. But this distant relative of Chiang Kai-shek/US physics professor claims otherwise based recounts of US veterans in the air force. He said that because the US doesn’t censor as much as USSR, it is probably true,

    I don’t claim anything–I cite sources, but this “distant relative” has no idea what is he talking about because even number of reputable Western sources admit that taken in isolation (from N.Korean and Chinese) the score of the Soviet Air Corps under command of Kozhedub in Korea and USAF is roughly 2 to 1 in favor of Soviet AF. Not only MiG-15 and F-86 were roughly matched but Soviet pilots all were veterans of Eastern Front where they fought for four years the cream of Luftwaffe. Very many of them had scores in dozens of German planes. Kozhedub had 62 to his credit.

    You regard, I recall, the US as having lost the arms race against USSR. Why do you say that? In what aspects was the USSR superior to US in military technology, in what aspects inferior.

    I write about it in my books and blog–it is a very large subject for a discussion board post. In short, the US lead in 1970-80s was in some radio-electronic aspects and computing power. This was the main one, the rest was in dynamics (changing constantly) and by 1970s it was clear that Soviet Air Defense systems were by far superior. Nowadays I don’t see any US lead in air force technology, it is not even a contender in Air Defense one and in the end, Russia is generation (maybe two) ahead of the US in missile technology which radically, together with few other military and economic factors, shifted geopolitical balance.

    Finally, what do you think of China censoring the internet. Even English sites likes Quora and Twitter are out. WordPress is also very slow

    It is purely China’s internal affair and I am in no position to judge it, albeit, I am, of course, for free exchange of the ideas. Another matter that political and ideological trash in social media can hardly be called a “free exchange” and there are, certainly, very few ideas there. Don’t worry West is catching up with China fairly fast.

  207. @gmachine1729

    what do you think of US recording all your information, emails, etc, and the backlash you trigger with the stuff you write. What about returning to Russia where you’re not by default some foreign subversive agent. You see, I felt much more comfortable talking to a Russian guy in Russia using a mail.ru.

    I give full cognizance to this fact so I merely act as any normal person will do. I am a US citizen and the only serious consideration I may give to going (not back–after Soviet collapse I never became Russian citizen) to Russia if I see the United States turning into a complete Orwellian mad house–it is already far advanced on this path and all my previous idealistic thoughts about US Constitution, liberties and rule of law have been dispelled. Other than that, we’ll see.

    in America, you’re there to do technical work, at best be a middle manager, corporate America is not gonna promote you or really accept you as her own, as a East European too, especially a Russian with a heavy Soviet background. they only accept anti-Soviet emigrant Russians who are not really Russian like Sergei Brin who’s pissed off the Chinese government forever. To be fair, in corporate america, in terms of starting companies, getting rich, becoming an executive, Taiwanese and non PRC Chinese have done better than Russians.

    It depends, but I have no problems with that since I am in no rush to be promoted–I love what I do and, evidently, I am very good at it. I have the chance to get to high managerial position in the group I work for–I don’t want to, at least for now. I like industry, I don’t like unjustified amount of additional pain in the ass which comes with promotion in my case. I had enough of this in my life.

    Why is it that Americans don’t give Russians as many of such opportunities (even the anti-communist ones it seems)? Maybe because the Russians are perceived as more threatening?

    Again, as I said, I don’t see it this way but, it is just me. I know my efforts are NOT in demand in the US think-tankdom, that is for sure;)))

    • Replies: @gmachine1729
  208. @Andrei Martyanov

    May I ask based on what you know, how would you be treated in Russia as an American citizen who’s spent 20+ years in America. What kind of job would you be able to get? Do you think people might give you a hard time in the workplace due to your American background, question your loyalty, etc.

    My guess is that unless you give up that American citizenship, almost certainly you won’t be able to work in defense sector in Russia.

    You’re welcome to reply to me at gmachine1729 at foxmail.com if you don’t feel comfortable answering here.

    I know for fact that Chinese in America, including the first generation immigrants born post 50s post 60s, are VERY different from the native Chinese. Many if not most native Chinese don’t consider them to be Chinese anymore, especially if they naturalized in America and/or raised kids there. They’re out of touch with China now, visiting in the summer isn’t enough to get them back in touch, you have to be working full time to stay in touch with that rapidly changing society. So native Chinese have a hard time taking them seriously, especially when they’re arrogant.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  209. @gmachine1729

    May I ask based on what you know, how would you be treated in Russia as an American citizen who’s spent 20+ years in America. What kind of job would you be able to get?

    Any job not requiring state secret (and confidential information) clearance.

    Do you think people might give you a hard time in the workplace due to your American background, question your loyalty, etc.

    There are scores of foreigners working in Russia at Russian industries–they have no problems in general.

    I know for fact that Chinese in America

    Russia is not China.

    • Replies: @gmachine1729
  210. James J. O’Meara
    Despite your “frivolous” description of the Humanities, Hague gets it right: only the Humanities provide EDUCATION, properly so called (as Plato and Aquinas would have agreed); the rest provide TRAINING, a kind of high-IQ barber college ”

    Are you assuming that humanities students are studying Plato and thinking deeply about the republic? Seriously?

    Plato is too White and male for the humanities.

    Go crack open an English 101 book and have a look at the White guilt garbage that is peddled through the reading selections.

    I have far more respect for someone that goes to barber school instead of the humanities. In fact I would bet that the barber school graduate is better at logical thinking. The social sciences and humanities actively discourage critical thinking. That is all part of post-modernism / frankfurt school non-sense.

    In fact I would bet a million dollars that the the typical barber school graduate would beat the humanities student at a basic logic test. Strong logical thinkers are driven away from the humanities courses at the freshmen level. Most of the profs are liberal and aren’t very good at hiding their bias against White male students, and even more so if said students show strong logical thinking skills.

  211. @Justvisiting

    The concept of social science has a deep underlying fallacy.

    The only way to study any of this stuff “scientifically” would be with Monte Carlo simulations–try a social policy from _identical_ initial conditions, and run the model millions of times to see what happens.

    That is impossible of course.

    Human beings are just not understood–period.

    This is too post-modern and an avoidance of actually studying what we can. You are basically saying we can’t study people because we can’t have perfect conditions.

    Well the problem with this belief is that some social science predictions have been more useful than others. We can look back and see that some predictions were more useful to public policy than others. I would argue that most of the useful predictions did not come from the social sciences since the 1960s.

    So it’s not simply a situation where every explanation has equal value. There have been some very politically incorrect and predictions made by a few outsiders that have been more accurate than the opinions of 1000s of Anthro and Sociology professors. Some of those opinions could have saved hundreds of billions along with countless lives.

  212. @Andrei Martyanov

    A few more questions.

    1) You keep emphasizing submarines. I looked them up and found that there are very many of them. The country with the most is actually DPRK, which has 78, of course they’re of much lower quality. US and China both have around 70. I remember you keep saying how China’s nuclear submarines are generations behind and for that reason, China would not win a naval arms race in South China Sea. Can you elaborate on that? In particular, how do you know all this with confidence? Since this stuff is pretty secretive, and you’re also just one person still working a fulltime job I presume and out from Russia for 20+ years with American citizenship, how can you be so sure that your judgment on all this stuff is on the mark?

    2) You also have commented on China’s J-20 not being truly indigenous, or not very good. How do you know that for sure? I think it is also operational now (because so a year or two ago I believe), or at least that’s what sources publicly online say? Anyhow, I would treat the information about that stuff online with skepticism, including how many are deployed. Speaking of which, how accurate are the estimations of nuclear stockpiles of various countries given online in your view?

    3) I read that US-UK eventually choked Japan’s supplies via their submarine fleet, which destroyed Japanese merchant ships at very high rates. The oil in Dutch East Indies didn’t turn out that useful for Japan. Which makes me ask how many US submarines are there in the Pacific, and which naval bases are there to support them. I know there’s one in Guam, but Guam can be destroyed right? And also America can use the Naval Base in Singapore and probably also Philippines? Not to mention ones in Japan and South Korea? There is also how long it would take to build a nuclear submarine. They cost at least a billion per unit, no wonder why there aren’t many of them.

    4) What are your thoughts on China’s Beidou, which is China’s version of GPS/GLONASS? I saw it fair bit in Chinese media lately. They say it’s useful for terminal guidance for anti-shipping missiles, or maybe there are some other satellites used for that.

    5) You also mentioned that China did not go into space until 2003. I think they tried in 1970s (like trained some astronauts) but from what I know, all they really accomplished was sending a satellite into space and taking it back to earth. You think that China bought much of that technology in 90s from Russia? I saw that a few Chinese astronauts trained in 90s in some Yuri Gagarin Center? I did ask a guy in a secret department in the space program how much collaboration there is with Russian space program, and he was like basically none. I did mention that wasn’t that spacewalk in 2008 with a Russian spacesuit? And he said yes, they bought that from Russia, or something like that.

    It’s kind of interesting how you seem to not have high opinion of China. I would believe also that it’s still fair ways away from Russia in military technology. Some people working in defense industry in China spoke very highly of Russia in that regard, how they achieve more despite lesser funding, much because their foundation is much stronger.

    PS: You seem pretty authoritative with your background and what you write, and I believe most of what you say. To be fair though, one person can only know so much with certainty, especially in something as secretive as what we’re talking about, where often one can only speculate. Even if all the information were publicly available, one person can only digest a very small percentage of it. Also, that American citizenship and being out from Russia in 20 years is suspicious. I’d expect that those in Russia still working on those Russian weapons are too busy to write as much as you do. And the Chinese in the defense industry are not allowed to leave the country without explicit permission.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  213. @gmachine1729

    This is a very large number of questions I have to answer, plus many of those are answered in my books and blog. But re. this:

    Even if all the information were publicly available, one person can only digest a very small percentage of it.

    That is why I concentrate primarily on the issues which require a systemic knowledge in a fairly narrow field. You will not find me offering my opinions on genetics, gynecology or quantum mechanics. I know my significant limitations and act within them. When I assume things–I usually state it clearly.

    Per this:

    I remember you keep saying how China’s nuclear submarines are generations behind and for that reason, China would not win a naval arms race in South China Sea. Can you elaborate on that? In particular, how do you know all this with confidence? Since this stuff is pretty secretive, and you’re also just one person still working a fulltime job I presume and out from Russia for 20+ years with American citizenship, how can you be so sure that your judgment on all this stuff is on the mark?

    I’ll give you a hint: compare Chinese COMAC-919 and Russian MC-21 programs. You will find a lot (not all) answers in that. Just to orient you more on that issue–any modern submarine, especially nuclear sub is much more complex than even most advanced commercial aircraft.

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