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 Chanda Chisala Archive
Closing the Black-White IQ Gap Debate, Part 2
The Seattle Experiment

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Biiftu Dureso graduates as valedictorian of a New York magnet high school where her father, an Ethiopian immigrant, works as a janitor!
Biiftu Dureso graduates as valedictorian of a New York magnet high school where her father, an Ethiopian immigrant, works as a janitor!

“African Americans have on average about 25 percent of European ancestry and this increases their IQs above that of Africans in Africa” – Richard Lynn, Race Differences in Intelligence.

Although it is virtually impossible to get official data that breaks down and compares black student scholastic performance in the US at the level of sub-ethnicity or even just nations of origin (which is why we went to the UK in the first place), there was one rare moment in 2011 when this disaggregation slightly happened with Seattle public schools. The Seattle area apparently has a large African refugee community, which makes it perfect for our social experiment.

Remember our goal. We only need to show that blacks in Africa would have a higher average IQ than native black Americans if they were moved from Africa to America since the African environment clearly depresses IQ, as both environmentalists and hereditarians agree in principle. This result would mean that whatever “problem” the black Americans have that result in such a large and intractable IQ gap with whites and other groups, has nothing whatsoever to do with the genetic evolution of races, especially since they even have more white genes than Africans. It is not their sub-Saharan African (black) genes that are responsible for their chronic academic under-achievement; it has to be a factor that is endemic to African American history.

SEATTLE SETTLERS

SeattleAfricans

The data from the Seattle Experiment shows that refugee children speaking different African languages at home in the US perform surprisingly well on the state tests, just like their fellow refugees who went to the UK, where they also start out with a large language barrier. Just like in the UK, they perform below whites (at least before sufficient linguistic assimilation), but still way above what is expected from their estimated national or racial (genotypic) IQs. Their performance above American blacks (labeled as “English-speaking” blacks) defies the common sociologist explanation that higher achieving black immigrants are simply the most driven members of their source populations (some were just in refugee camps), and it equally defies the modern hereditarian argument that they are just the most self-selected in intelligence relative to their source populations, unless we now start extending this cognitive self-selectivity and “assortative mating” quality to people who run to United Nations refugee camps for protection. (It is not necessarily all who were from these camps, but that doesn’t matter since even those who were from there are performing above native black Americans).

The story that reported these results disclosed the many shocked reactions of Americans in the Seattle area when they were exposed to this unexpected data, especially black American parents. The immigrants outperformed the native blacks despite their obvious background of steep poverty (and perhaps even some traumatic experiences from their countries, not to mention the culture shock of suddenly migrating to a first world country). “How is that possible?” one incredulous black American parent reacted when she was shown the results.

Many native black Americans usually attribute the well-known superior academic performance of black African students to the “wealthy families” they supposedly come from in Africa, where their parents allegedly own oil fields and diamond mines in their backyards. Seeing indigent African children outperform them was utterly disillusioning as it instantly shattered all their working rationalizations.

There were no Ghanaian or Nigerian immigrant children in this experiment, but we can logically expect that they would perform above these more disadvantaged refugee children, just as they do in the UK, if anything due to their higher exposure to the English language before migrating.

The source article is worth reading in full, even if just for the amusingly shocked reactions of the people named in the story. The included attempts to give explanations for these surprising results only make the article more enlightening, especially if one wants to see how much most people stick to their ideological positions even in the face of contrary evidence. For example, the conservative scholar who was asked to comment from the Fordham Institute, a “conservative education think tank in Washington, DC,” had no choice but to just stick to the trite “they must have come from wealthy and educated families,” without being bothered with the contradictions.

To his credit, the reporter of the story noticed that this “conservative” response was ridiculous in light of the data. Surely the Somalian refugees coming straight from refugee camps with a large number lacking high school educations were not also selected for their wealth and intelligence inherited through long lines of African elites? Then where on earth can you ever find average Africans?

The other more liberal “experts” consulted were no better, also offering textbook answers that were clearly contradicted by the same story they were commenting on, including the claim that society has just placed low expectations on black American students. And yet this same story shows that this community had even lower expectations for the African refugees since everyone was so shocked by their performance!

 

DATA ANALYSIS

Now to the numbers. This research was instituted only for the city’s policy purposes and not for any particular academic purpose, so they did not publish anything in any journals, beyond their few press statements.

However, I found a simple presentation document they archived somewhere on the web that gives an idea of the numbers involved and a breakdown for the performance of other ethnicities, including Hispanics and Chinese in the city.

The fact that these are only group pass rates (on mathematics and reading) does not matter for purposes of ethnic IQ comparison since the pass rate positions correlate perfectly with expected mean IQ score ranks of the groups before disaggregation (that’s the same logic we were using for GCSE pass rate comparisons, especially when mathematics is included).Seattle-ELL-1

What was more shocking is that even before they learned to read as “well” as black Americans, most of these African groups beat the black American children in math (Table above). The black American children only managed to beat the Somali kids before they could learn to read, but as soon as they learned some reading, even they too beat the black American children on math (Table below).Seattle-NonELL

To remove any doubt about the authenticity of their performance, these refugee children were actually competing with Hispanics more than with the American blacks.

The Amharic speaking children had a math pass rate of 62 percent, which was not only higher than the math pass rate of their Spanish-speaking-at-home Hispanic peers, but even higher than the pass rate of the assimilated Hispanic kids (those who speak mostly or only English at home)!

Hispanic English speakers versus Spanish speakers at home.

Hispanic English speakers versus Spanish speakers at home.

These results also had some other interesting points that are outside the scope of this research,but may be of interest to others in the IQ research community. For example, Hispanic kids who speak English at home do not gain any advantage at all in reading over those who still speak Spanish at home, but they apparently get some advantage in math, which sounds quite counter-intuitive. If this observation is generalizable, then perhaps Hispanic assimilation, as far as it goes, does lead to some elevation in real (g-loaded) intelligence? (If it was the other way around – more intelligent Hispanics assimilating more – their reading pass rate would have probably been higher too.)

 

SEATTLE BLACK IQ

The fact that this experiment was done in the top economic city of Washington State (Seattle) makes the results even more emphatic.

Many IQ scholars, including Lynn, have said that blacks in the northern states have an IQ advantage over those in the southern states and they have estimated their average IQs at around 90 and above.

In 2006, HBD blogger “Audacious Epigone” found a way of estimating the black IQs of different states using Lynn’s methods (on NAEP test scores) and he found Washington State on top with an estimated black children IQ of 94.5 (it was just a little lower when he repeated the calculations in 2013 with some slight changes). They were actually number one in the country in those first 2006 estimates:

Black IQs by State, derived from NAEP Scores. Source: Audacious Epigone blog.

Black IQs by State, derived from NAEP Scores. Source: Audacious Epigone blog.

On the other hand, Ethiopians test scores are quite at the bottom in Africa, as reported by Lynn (Zambia was always reported as the top scoring sub-Saharan African nation, which is the only reason this author does not actually dislike Richard Lynn).

Source: IQ and the Wealth of Nations, Lynn and Vanhanen, page 62.

Source: IQ and the Wealth of Nations, Lynn and Vanhanen, page 62.

The low IQ scores of Ethiopia, using data that is relied on by hereditarians to make their comparative IQ calculations, shows that even if the Ethiopian refugees in Seattle were a slightly cognitively select group from their nation, these would still just be average IQ by African standards. Thus, a full 15 points selection would just bring them to IQ 78 (one IQ point above Zambia), which means the super-selection argument is void from the start.

So, how does one of the lowest IQ scoring groups in Africa, emigrating with the lowest evidence of any selection whatsoever (economically or academically), have their children score above black Americans in one of the highest scoring states for native black Americans, (some) even outscoring Hispanics who are assimilated, before they are even assimilated themselves? How do even the Somalian refugees brought in from a total failed state catastrophe outscore black Americans as soon as they just learn to read some English?

It can certainly not be explained by any of the recent HBD answers, individually or in combination:

  1. a 12 to 15 point increase in IQ from parents to children due to better nutrition and lower parasite load? Like the UK case, these achievements are true for those children who were already born and living in Africa, as these children were; and they come from countries that were among the most malnourished in Africa.
  2. Extremely high parental immigrant selection? Refugees from truly troubled countries are not known to be selected for intelligence. Besides, some of these particular groups have the highest number of parents with no high school diplomas.
  3. Presence of (non-white) Caucasoid genes? They do not outscore other black immigrants in the UK who have no such Caucasoid genes. Also, they are not the ones who have the “smarter” European Caucasian genes – that would be the black Americans.
  4. High presence of Igbos in their population? No.

 

[In Part 3 we revisit the UK to close the case there].

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Chanda Chisala, originally from Zambia, has been a John S. Knight Visiting Fellow at Stanford University, a Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution, and a Reagan-Fascell Fellowship at the National Endowment for Democracy.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity, Science • Tags: Africans, Blacks, Race/IQ
The Race/IQ Series
Of Related Interest
SCRABBLE World Champion (2015), Wellington Jighere, of Nigeria (on the left!).
Thomas Sowell vs. Richard Lynn
Justus Williams, a son of low-income Black immigrants, wins the prestigious US Junior Chess Open. Williams is more famous in chess circles for embarrassing world champion Magnus Carlsen in a friendly game (when Williams was 14 years old!)
Differential Racial and Gender Canalization Explains Group Intellectual Differences.

279 Comments to "Closing the Black-White IQ Gap Debate, Part 2"

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  1. Chanda you are completely correct but you should just give up. Not because of anything you did, but because HBD is a cult.

    These people will never accept that they’re wrong. They think HBD is some super secret incontrovertible truth that nearly everyone on Earth is suppressing and that everyone secretly agrees with them.

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  2. You make the assumption that the refugees are a representative sample of their home countries’ populations.

    In a country like Somalia, getting into a refugee camp may be more desirable than not being in one. And from there to be selected for relocation to America may also be more desirable than not.

    As with most desirable things in life, those with a higher IQ or socioeconomic status may be better at working the system to their benefit to get them.

    Getting a representative sample is hard problem, one of the hardest in the social sciences. You can’t just take a population and assume they represent anything beyond themselves. It’s true there’s no evidence that they are not representative, but there’s also no evidence that they are. The truth is we don’t know. And that isn’t a solid basis for drawing conclusions.

    Remember our goal. We only need to show that blacks in Africa would have a higher average IQ than native black Americans if they were moved from Africa to America since the African environment clearly depresses IQ, as both environmentalists and hereditarians agree in principle. This result would mean that whatever “problem” the black Americans have that result in such a large and intractable IQ gap with whites and other groups, has nothing whatsoever to do with the genetic evolution of races, especially since they even have more white genes than Africans. It is not their sub-Saharan African (black) genes that are responsible for their chronic academic under-achievement; it has to be a factor that is endemic to African American history.

    This doesn’t follow from Africans outperforming black Americans. You would need to show that Africans perform just as well as whites (or Asians or Jews). It is quite possible and even likely for black American underachievement to be the result of both genetic and cultural factors.

    a 12 to 15 point increase in IQ from parents to children due to better nutrition and lower parasite load?

    This is quite possible. “Micronutrient deficiencies (e.g. in iodine and iron) influence the development of intelligence and remain a problem in the developing world. For example, iodine deficiency causes a fall, in average, of 12 IQ points.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_health_on_intelligence

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  3. Refugees from truly troubled countries are not known to be selected for intelligence. Besides, some of these particular groups have the highest number of parents with no high school diplomas.

    According to your link, 37.5% of Somali immigrants lack a high school diploma, meaning 62.5 have one.

    But according to this UNICEF report, if I am reading it correctly (and maybe I am not), only 13.2% of Somali’s will attend high school. (see p.4 and p.7) If so, Somali immigrants to the US are highly selected.

    http://www.childinfo.org/files/ESAR_Somalia.pdf

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  4. “A further persuasive study using a different methodology is that of Winick, Meyer and Harris (1975) of Korean infants adopted by American parents. One hundred and eleven Korean female babies were classified into 3 groups of malnourished, moderately nourished and well nourished on the basis of their height and weight. They were placed with American adoptive parents before the age of 3 yr. The mean IQs of the 3 groups at the age of around 10 yr were 102 (malnourished), 106 (moderately nourished) and 112 (well nourished), the difference between groups 1 and 3 being statistically significant. It is difficult to see how the results can be plausibly explained except in terms of a permanently adverse effect of poor nutrition in infancy on subsequent intelligence.” [Emphasis added]

    THE ROLE OF NUTRITION IN SECULAR INCREASES IN INTELLIGENCE – RICHARD LYNN page 277

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  5. Fascinating series. Looking forward to the third installment.

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  6. I am a sceptic on most theories which are not thoroughly proved and which don’t have much if any bearing on my interests so I take Richard Lynn’s work as something to leave largely unread and not relied on. However, before I take time to finish reading this piece let me take issue with the logic of something said at the outset.

    In summary that you are seeking to show that the persistent IQ gap between African-Americans and whites in the US has nothing to do with the differences in genes between races by showing that, once the environments are equalised for immigrants from Africa by coming to America they do much better on IQ tests and their equivalents than African-Americans who have on average more than 20 per cent European genes. And that your argument is fallacious and should give way to a serious attempt to establish the facts if you think getting it right matters.

    It is fallacious because you have no idea of the IQ level of the Europeans who contributed their genes to the African-American gene pool. And it is fallacious because it does not recognise that African genomes are notoriously diverse and that there could easily be the range of average IQs according to class, caste or religion that one sees on other continents.

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  7. IQ is very useful in the the context of a modern industrialized society, especially in academic professions. But it is much less useful in other contexts. If it worked that way – high IQ people just succeed everywhere and anywhere – all humans would have an IQ of 5000, as through human history only the people with high IQ´s would have survived and reproduced. Life might be an IQ test when you are an engineer in Europe but life is not an IQ test for everybody.

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  8. I don’t know gentlemen, it looks like Chisala just took a copy of The Bell Curve…

    AND SLAPPED YOU IN THE NOSES WITH IT!

    (Free rhinoplasty, can’t beat it.)

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  9. Their performance above American blacks (labeled as “English-speaking” blacks) defies the common sociologist explanation that higher achieving black immigrants are simply the most driven members of their source populations (some were just in refugee camps), and it equally defies the modern hereditarian argument that they are just the most self-selected in intelligence relative to their source populations, unless we now start extending this cognitive self-selectivity and “assortative mating” quality to people who run to United Nations refugee camps for protection.

    Getting to America is a massively positive life outcome and higher IQs are exceptionally well correlated with positive life outcomes; so it’s crazy to suggest that immigrants to America don’t have higher average IQs than their competitors.

    Do you not find it strange that there is no solid evidence that Black Africans have the same average IQs as Euros? That you have to resort to small sample sizes on barely relevant tests and make assumptions that include the idea that in all the high stakes games that life offers immigration is somehow the only one where winning doesn’t correlate with high IQ?

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  10. According to the report, the district pass rates for all races (non-ELL) in reading and math were 78 percent and 70 percent, respectively. For non-ELL black immigrants the reading rates were between 65 and 74 percent, that is, below the district’s overall rate. The corresponding math pass rates were between 47 and 62 percent, also below the district’s overall rate.

    White pass rates aren’t reported (they could be calculated, laboriously) but given the figures for other races and the overall demographics described in the report, they must be higher than the overall district pass rates, indicating that there is a substantial test score gap between whites and black immigrants in Seattle.

    What was more shocking is that even before they learned to read as “well” as black Americans, most of these African groups beat the black American children in math (Table above)

    You are misinterpreting the table. The “including ELL” table contains all students, whether ELL or not. The non-ELL students are a subset of the “including ELL” students. For example, 60 percent (143/238) of the Amharic speakers are non-ELL. The ELL-only pass rates must be calculated separately. Looking at math pass rates, the Amharic ELL-only appear to have a rate of 34% which is lower than the native black rate of 36%. The other black immigrant ELL-only groups lack behind native blacks more.

    Whether a student is labeled ELL or not is, of course, mostly a question of his or her proficiency in English. Students who are smarter and can pick up English easier will be more likely to be categorized as non-ELL. This means that the non-ELL students aren’t simply immigrants who have learned English but, to some extent, a cognitively selected subgroup of all immigrants.

    The Seattle data, therefore, do not provide much evidence for Chisala’s thesis. We don’t even have to get into the fact that very little information is provided on the actual background of the black immigrants in Seattle, aside from vague claims about refugee camps. Nor is there need to deal with the false assumption that hereditarians believe children’s school achievement to be entirely genetically determined.

    What is most troubling about Chisala’s article is his complete omission of John Fuerst’s research on black immigrant IQ in America. Fuerst has showed, using data vastly superior to Chisala’s, that black immigrants to America score below white Americans to approximately the same degree as native-born black Americans do. This research has been brought to Chisala’s attention, so the fact that he doesn’t address it calls the sincerity of his efforts into question.

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  11. I think that I understand your problem. The simple truth is that you’re a very elite Zambian. Your social circle consists of ultra elite people, who probably make you think that you’re middle class, and the non-elite but still top 10-20 percent, who you think are normal or even poor.

    You then see immigrants often coming from that group which you consider to be normal or even poor and take them as a representative sample.

    They are not. The vast bulk of the population of many African countries are peasants. None of those guys are making it to America as refugees because the vast majority don’t really know what a plane is and would be far too terrified to get on one. Nevermind all of their other misunderstandings. Let’s be honest, many of them have never and may never leave their village.

    Even the local town is a bizarre and alien world!

    I suppose I can’t blame you, because like most elites the majority of your countrymen are invisible to you.

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  12. Typical leftoid ””argument””, i.e, histerical, idiotic arrogant and precociously triumphal ad hominem.

    I disagree with many statements which are supported by hardcore hbds, but it doesn’t mean that hbd is essentially wrong exactly what you, dishonestly, are trying to do.

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  13. This is an interesting article.

    HBDers may have some cult type proponents, but we generally follow the evidence, no matter where it goes.

    HBDers are the ones who say it is both genes and environment; they are largely responding to the Blank Slaters who say it is all environment and no genetic component.

    Keep in mind the limits of this paper, including that it is largely 1-8 grades, where the IQ gap is easiest to close.

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  14. African-Americans probably suffer an IQ depression due to crappy culture, yup. I think that is part of what is being argued. Black African immigrants have better motivation and do better.
    I don’t think there is any indication that genes have no influence on IQ, though.

    (Edit: Also, migrants definitely are a selected group. Somali migrants even ‘from refugee camps’ tend to be middle class, not peasants.)

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  15. “It is fallacious because you have no idea of the IQ level of the Europeans who contributed their genes to the African-American gene pool.”

    I’d say one could make a fairly logical inference that it is above 67.

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  16. “I think that I understand your problem. The simple truth is that you’re a very elite Zambian. Your social circle consists of ultra elite people”

    Yes, the nose-in-the-air, blueblood elites of Zambia with a mean 86 IQ.

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  17. What is most troubling about Chisala’s article is his complete omission of John Fuerst’s research on black immigrant IQ in America. Fuerst has showed, using data vastly superior to Chisala’s, that black immigrants to America score below white Americans to approximately the same degree as native-born black Americans do. This research has been brought to Chisala’s attention, so the fact that he doesn’t address it calls the sincerity of his efforts into question.

    I think that before we get to the personality attributions, we should wait and see if Chisala addresses it in his later posts.

    In discussions, it is generally better to avoid references to the mental states of the participants.

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  18. “The data from the Seattle Experiment shows that refugee children speaking different African languages at home in the US perform surprisingly well on the state tests…”

    Looks like the experiments were confounded by bilingualism which is known to affect intelligence positively.

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  19. Is there any hint as of what is the minimum IQ for those who pass?

    And another thing: why is then black-white gap so persistent in US? What is the reason? It can’t be environment, since it’s hard to argue that refugees are coming from better environment; it can’t be racism, since you, Mr Chisala, have hinted that immigrants children also perform quite well, and it would be hard to argue that Jensen’s X factor is racism which uniformly affects every black in American society EXCEPT black immigrant children. So what it would be?

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  20. It is fallacious because you have no idea of the IQ level of the Europeans who contributed their genes to the African-American gene pool.

    Unless you are arguing that there are (were) sub-ethnic European groups with IQs at African levels (or what Lynn estimates as African levels), it should not matter which Europeans passed their genes to African-Americans. The HBDers assert that “European” genes have something to do with higher IQ vis-a-vis “African” genes; different Europeans may have higher or lower IQs but that’s just natural statistical variance and will in any way be overcome in a couple of generations by regression towards the mean (the topic of Mr. Chisala’s previous article.)

    And it is fallacious because it does not recognise that African genomes are notoriously diverse and that there could easily be the range of average IQs according to class, caste or religion that one sees on other continents.

    You said you hadn’t finished reading the piece. You should, before you make comments like this.

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  21. Life might be an IQ test when you are an engineer in Europe

    Why only in Europe?

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  22. When are you assuming the European genes were introduced on average? And are you, accordingly, making proper allowance for the Flynn effect?

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  23. In a country like Somalia, getting into a refugee camp may be more desirable than not being in one. And from there to be selected for relocation to America may also be more desirable than not.

    I have seen some asinine comments on these websites, but this one has to take the cake. What desperation and opportunism can explain, you seek to lay at the feet of IQ.

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  24. Do you not find it strange that there is no solid evidence that Black Africans have the same average IQs as Euros?

    The entire body of work on IQ estimates of races and nations uses differences in “life outcome” as the basis for said estimates. There is no other “ground truth” to establish a difference. Now you are saying that the existence of similar “life outcomes” for black immigrants to white countries with the white natives cannot refute the prior estimates of IQ differences, which were arrived at purely by extrapolating from differences in life outcomes, because sample sizes are small and unrepresentative.

    Do you know what a circular argument is?

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  25. I don’t think there is any indication that genes have no influence on IQ, though.

    He is arguing about persistence racial differences having (or not having) a genetic factor, not that genes and heredity play no role in intelligence. Anyone who doesn’t live in a cave knows that individual people vary in skills and abilities, and that their parentage plays a role.

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  26. In his previous post, Chisala said that “Africans in the UK who have both low income and low wealth have children performing at the white average or even above (and as I will definitively prove in part 2, this is certainly true of African immigrants in America too)” (emphasis added).

    He completely failed to prove, definitively or otherwise, what he said he would prove in Part 2. He only presented some so-so data from Seattle showing that African immigrants score clearly below white Americans. He did not address Fuerst’s paper, even though he knows of it and it directly and comprehensively deals with the topic of this post. He also says that the next post will be about the UK, so he will not discuss Fuerst’s findings there, either.

    Chisala has failed to deliver what he promised, and has presented research findings very selectively. That’s a fact.

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  27. As in the previous article, the biggest single flaw in this study is the assumption that there is no self-selection bias in your samples of Africans in the United States. This assumption defies belief. Arriving in the US involves a long sequence of events, most of which cannot occur without some voluntary action on the part of the immigrants. Human immigrants are not jellyfish floating at the whim of ocean currents; they act voluntarily to facilitate their movement towards particular places. [I'd point out that the formal explication of this last assertion, the theory/paradox of action, first fully articulated by Talcot is the perhaps most fundamental principal of modern social inquiry.]

    As JimC , the tenth commenter on this blog, mentions, Fuerst provides a strong empirical case that African out migrants are strongly self-selecting. The third commenter on this blog, Drake, provides data supporting the conclusion that your particular sample is self-selected. You certainly provide only a weak argument, unsupported by empirical data, against the reasonable assumption that your samples are as self-selecting as every other migrant stream in history, particularly the current stream of African migrants to the USA, and even more particularly your study samples.

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  28. These immigrants come from the Horn of Africa: Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia. Sure, they’re “African” but so are immigrants from Malta. Culturally, genetically, and historically, the Horn of Africa is closer to the Middle East than to sub-Saharan Africa.

    You’re creating a straw man of “African-ness” that nobody in this debate believes in.

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  29. I love IQ articles. They are like those newspaper comics of old printed. Too many people care about test points, when what is important is what you do with your smarts. Seems like most of us are on the dumb side, but we don’t do near the harm that the high IQ types do with their grand ideas.

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  30. It is difficult to see how the results can be plausibly explained except in terms of a permanently adverse effect of poor nutrition in infancy on subsequent intelligence.”

    Not really, it could be that the malnourished kids were over represented amongst cognitively challenged birth parents, that dullard parents had less wherewithal to properly feed themselves and their kids. So unless you can control for this, it’s not clear which way the causal arrow points.

    That is to say – were the lower IQ Koreans lower IQ because they didn’t get decent diet and their brains didn’t develop properly or because their birth parents were too simply passed on their dullard genes, or is it something of each (which is what I suspect)?

    One needs to work out experiments to check this.

    There are similar problems with the ATL piece in assuming that the African refugees were representative of their source populations. One cannot just assume this. And absence of evidence that the refugees are selected, is not evidence that they are representative, or as the old canard has it absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!

    This is basic stuff.

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  31. *Sorry, it is for Chinsala.*

    Be or not

    ”Iq is -like- a real life” or ”iq is not like a real life”

    Iq reliability in the task of express quantitatively the level of collective (i mean, contextual average joey) and individuals is likely that varies greatly. I mean, some individuals will have expressed very well its cognitive levels while others not.

    Iq tests measured cognition and cognitive ability types. Correlates with general intelligence, because general intelligence is general, ;)

    Iq depending on personality type and/or specially anxiety levels, varies but it doesn’t mean that don’t exist a ”number” that will be representative of our cognition quantitative levels. Is not just coincidence that highest fluctuation among iq scores happen during adolescence as well personality turbulations.

    ”This result would mean that whatever “problem” the black Americans have that result in such a large and intractable IQ gap with whites and other groups, has nothing whatsoever to do with the genetic evolution of races, especially since they even have more white genes than Africans. It is not their sub-Saharan African (black) genes that are responsible for their chronic academic under-achievement; it has to be a factor that is endemic to African American history.”’

    Say it has nothing to do with genes is idiocy. Everything that is related to biology has to do with ” genes’, if this is a semantic proxy for ” behavior or inner disposition ” or ” it depends much more on being than space circumstances ”. Everything has to do with genetics, directly or indirectly. Never in this context does not belong to the real world.

    ”This result would mean that whatever “problem” the black Americans”

    Problem in quotes. Will be by details that we can figure out the ulterior motives of (seems) dishonest people who mask them through semantic manipulations. But I understand in part, because I have to do the same thing when ”they’ speak by generalized but predominantly right way about the average behavior of homosexuals. Right now it is not the reason that is predominates, but instinct and emotion, yet they are needed.

    There is a real problem with black people, ON AVERAGE, in the US (Suriname, Brazil, South Africa, Africa, etc), in fact, there are always problems when we have human beings, the best would be to analyze the smallest proportion of problems than the lack of it, just in a hypothetical community genotypic wises.

    ”Remember our goal.”

    Our?

    ” We only need to show that blacks in Africa would have a higher average IQ than native black Americans if they were moved from Africa to America since the African environment clearly depresses IQ, as both environmentalists and hereditarians agree in principle. This result would mean that whatever “problem” the black Americans have that result in such a large and intractable IQ gap with whites and other groups, has nothing whatsoever to do with the genetic evolution of races, especially since they even have more white genes than Africans. It is not their sub-Saharan African (black) genes that are responsible for their chronic academic under-achievement; it has to be a factor that is endemic to African American history.”

    *You could be more honest and tell us what is your estimate for the genotypic IQ of ” black African ”.

    Can be?*

    I’m anxious to know what is your estimative

    Different personalities explain why albino africans ”looks” smarter than black africans and why they are treated as smarter, even that their iq tests no have gap.

    Personality have a huge influence on iq or school achievement.

    People with dominant personality will be himself dominated by its personality and will tend to live in a short term perspective. I’m like that.

    ”The data from the Seattle Experiment shows that refugee children speaking different African languages at home in the US perform surprisingly well on the state tests, just like their fellow refugees who went to the UK, where they also start out with a large language barrier. Just like in the UK, they perform below whites (at least before sufficient linguistic assimilation), but still way above what is expected from their estimated national or racial (genotypic) IQs.”

    What is the history of these children?

    They have been selected?

    Let’s make an analogy

    ” I see a dead Syrian boy in a Turkish beach ”

    and you tell me

    ” Look, this is a refugee who wanted to go to Europe with his family, but the European racism did he perish in these dark sand beaches ”

    ”The story that reported these results disclosed the many shocked reactions of Americans in the Seattle area when they were exposed to this unexpected data, especially black American parents. The immigrants outperformed the native blacks despite their obvious background of steep poverty (and perhaps even some traumatic experiences from their countries, not to mention the culture shock of suddenly migrating to a first world country). “How is that possible?” one incredulous black American parent reacted when she was shown the results.”

    Refugees who may have had a very bad environment scored high on tests compared to black Americans ?? Wow, I thought the worst environment depress ” IQ scores ”.

    ”Many native black Americans usually attribute the well-known superior academic performance of black African students to the “wealthy families” they supposedly come from in Africa, where their parents allegedly own oil fields and diamond mines in their backyards. Seeing indigent African children outperform them was utterly disillusioning as it instantly shattered all their working rationalizations.”

    Again, you need not come from a rich environment to be smart, is not?

    ”The source article is worth reading in full, even if just for the amusingly shocked reactions of the people named in the story. The included attempts to give explanations for these surprising results only make the article more enlightening, especially if one wants to see how much most people stick to their ideological positions even in the face of contrary evidence. For example, the conservative scholar who was asked to comment from the Fordham Institute, a “conservative education think tank in Washington, DC,” had no choice but to just stick to the trite “they must have come from wealthy and educated families,” without being bothered with the contradictions.”

    You accuse people of being just biased…. when they are talking about black-WHITE gap, but in fact they are just starting by potential-logical justifications , such as higher income, which consists of proxy for higher IQ, although the relationship is not significant in general terms. Other logic about this explanation is the huge difference between first and third world income. Average nigerian income mean very poor at american standards. Its difficult understand it?

    I need detailed history of all those searches to infer any more palatable thing above all that I have spoken so far I only have some data, and his words. Where are the sources?

    We need to keep in mind that before being a reality, heredity is a probability. It is not uncommon, but it is not the rule, find smart people who came from families dominated by lower intelligence ”genotypes”. I even know a teenage girl who is very cognitively intelligent (she is thin), has a stupid brother (he’s fat) and a mixed race mother who seems to be of average intelligence to level average Brazilian underclass. She is more introverted than their brother too.

    The more variables to intelligence (of any kind … even if it is necessary to analyze the heredity of each) you and your spouse have, the greater the chances that their children inherit these variables.

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  32. Refugees from truly troubled countries are not known to be selected for intelligence.

    It depends. Vietnamese refugees, at least in the early years, were culled from the upper levels of society. Do we have any reason to believe this isn’t the case with Somalis?

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  33. A contradiction isn’t an argument. Do you have an argument to counter his speculation, which almost certainly has historical precedents? It certainly does in the case of Vietnamese refugees who came from the upper class of S. Vietnamese society.

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  34. The entire body of work on IQ estimates of races and nations uses differences in “life outcome” as the basis for said estimates. There is no other “ground truth” to establish a difference.

    Darwin’s theory, and its consistency and coherence with the observable world including among other mammals, makes it expected and forms one ‘ground truth’ that you believe doesn’t exist. Darwin, of course, believed his theory explained the cultural achievement gap between the people’s of the world. The real question is why you superstitious egalitarians hold to your beliefs despite no evidence whatsoever to support you religious fantasies that the historically separated populations of this world are clones? As Stephen Pinker has said, people are not clones. Not individually not as arranged in historically separated populations.

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  35. I wish the author would stop posting pictures of smart black students at good schools in his articles. He doesn’t seem to realize that it’s sort of working against him, to a degree. Everybody knows there are smart and exceptional black people. That’s not the point. Individuals and populations are very different things. It would be like me putting pictures of my middle-schoolers who are in gifted placement classes in my comments. Kinda weird.

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  36. I will just address the question of selection for now because it keeps coming back.

    Take a country with IQ 63. Let’s grant that the refugees are as high as 1 SD selected above the mean (because to get into a refugee camp is harder than to get into a local university, apparently). That ridiculous selection level would STILL just be only IQ 78!

    Is that the level of selection that you believe explains our data, especially given that their children would even have to regress downwards? How do they get to beat people with at least IQ 90?

    Or you believe it should be even higher than 1 SD?

    It is not enough to just keep saying “there is some selection here”, “this population is not really representative,” “they have more high school grads than the general population”, etc etc. The important question is what is that level of selection that you believe these humanitarian refugees represent? Present your selection estimate that explains the data away so that we can all go home.

    (But we may not go home so quickly if you give us practically confused estimates. For example, if the humanitarian refugees end up being more intellectually selected than the emigrating surgeons!)

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  37. ” historically, the Horn of Africa is closer to the Middle East than to sub-Saharan Africa.

    You’re creating a straw man of “African-ness” that nobody in this debate believes in.”

    Lynn estimates Ethiopian IQ to be 63 – lower than Ghana and Nigeria (places where America’s slave descended population originated) .

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  38. When Communists take over a country, you can expect the upper classes to leave, because their interests are inimical to the interests of Communists. I’m not an expert on Somalia, but I doubt that what’s been going on there for the past few decades has any relation to a Cold War-style class struggle between the elite and the lower orders.

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  39. What if you don’t use Lynn’s particularly low estimates of Sub-Saharan African IQ? What if you start with, say, Wicherts et al., who put it ~80? (Of course, the Wicherts estimate poses its own problems for HBD, since, given European admixture in African-Americans and the environmental extremities in Sub-Saharan Africa, SSA IQ shouldn’t be so close to African-American IQ on the hereditarian hypothesis).

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  40. The Somali refugees in the US are mostly from camps in Kenya. Whole villages decamped to Kenya from Somalia during the 90s. AFAIK the allocation for resettlement is a FIFO without tests. Certainly many of the arrivals are illiterate (in Somali).

    Now, if the average Somali IQ is 63 and their kids are performing better than US blacks (IQ 94) the IQ lift of “selection” for resettlement + US nutrition/healthcare is greater than 30 points.

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  41. Is essentially about egocentrism. Iq legitimates personal megalomaniac and wrong beliefs of many people.

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  42. If indeed there was real discrimination against black people, on average and in general, that would be better, the supposed ”average black African” that you are looking for, I would be among the first to realize, you can be assured. However, the country where I live, the descendants of Africans living here, (and I’m one of them, but with Caucasian appearance) does not look better as ”non-selected community” or ”natural demographic proportion of types” in relation to other ethnic groups . I’m not putting the ‘white man’ ‘on a pedestal, or the’ Asian man”.

    To be honest, I hate all human groups and their cultures. They are all severely stupid at some very important aspect of harmonic existence. But there is no doubt, at least in the environment where I am there is a significant proportion of blacks and mulattos who are dysfunctional, for any context, and the explanation for this is not the race itself, but the mental race which is present in all human groups, the spectrum of anti-social behavior. The spectrum of anti-social (potentially violent-criminous) behavior is much more common among blacks than among modern whites and East Asians and Darwinian explanation is that different selective pressures have molded the 3 most explicit racial trunks where that in an environment of very harsh climate or other disadvantageous long term situation, cooperation has been the key to survival, while in tropical environments, there has been a significant need for cooperation. Of course it is not just that, but it makes a lot of sense.

    Modern society is an example of relaxation for the selection of cooperative behavior, where we have the potentially exponential increase in anti-social types, if there is no further need to survive in the short term. What our friendly morons ideologues call ” tolerance ”. The victory of ‘alpha men” will mean less cooperation/less empathy.

    Last observations by now

    ”Presence of (non-white) Caucasoid genes? They do not outscore other black immigrants in the UK who have no such Caucasoid genes. Also, they are not the ones who have the “smarter” European Caucasian genes – that would be the black Americans.”

    You are entering contradiction to raise this question, if black Americans are predominantly African, anyway. And again, ” European genes ” can mean anything. If you had genetic pairing long term between the two groups, it could take some similar conclusion you arrived at this excerpt from his text.

    Not only have ” European genes’ to be smart, ask for irish travelers.

    ”Extremely high parental immigrant selection? Refugees from truly troubled countries are not known to be selected for intelligence. Besides, some of these particular groups have the highest number of parents with no high school diplomas.”

    Any people coming out of a place to go to another place is selected. Even a population of slaves, i.e. involuntary imigration.

    There are people who have great desire to leave their country and this can tell a lot about their behavioral characteristics.

    The average Nigerian has a income very lower, which makes it unlikely to be able leave your country with no job security or stability in other regions.

    Geographic proximity explain differences in selection. Muslim immigrants who go to the US tend to be more ” selected ” (self-selected) than those who go to the UK.

    Differences in standard of living and culture also explain differences in self-selections.

    If circumstances are favorable, you will see the transplant joey average from one region to another, see France and maghrebians.

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  43. So basically students who speak a foreign language in the home but are not enrolled in ELL programs are more successful on standardized tests than those who are enrolled in ELL.

    Well that’s just shocking.

    I can’t believe anyone would try to argue this has any bearing on the heredity of IQ.

    CC, in the name of all that is good and holy and for the sake of your immortal soul, get ACTUAL DATA before you write another article about African immigrant IQ.

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  44. Obviously I am not referring to a group with a mean IQ of 86…being as educated and travelled as our author is, what do you think is the smallest fraction that would refer to him and his peers in Zambia?

    The top 0.1 percent, 0.01 percent or even the top 0.0001 percent?

    Let’s be honest, there’s a large group of Africans, although minute as a percentage of their different home countries’ populations, who go and get great credentials at the best Western universities and then, if they go back, they sit in their clubs, eat imported food and remain entirely disengaged from the 99.99 percent of their countrymen, all the while considering themselves middle class because one of their acquaintances is even richer and even more isolated than them.

    This group obviously has an IQ higher than 86. It is representative of the tiniest sliver of the population and to this group, as to the author, the top ten percent of the African population, those with indoor plumbing, are somehow average people. Hence the confusion over whether African immigrants to the West are a representative sample or not.

    Not that their high IQ means that this group ever achieves anything significant, but that’s another topic.

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  45. The U.S. black-white gap might be due to the welfare state. The availability of welfare over multiple generations might have had a negative effect on the black work ethic here. This negative effect might not have had a major influence yet on blacks who have just arrived from Africa. If IQ is genetic instead of environmental, then the welfare state here could still be having an effect by allowing low IQ blacks in the U.S. to have more children than they would in Africa where there is no extensive welfare state. That would have an IQ lowering effect on the black population here.

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  46. Has anyone ever thought that mean black African IQ, given a first world environment, would be even close to as low as 68?

    I’ve never seen it…so why are you arguing against it? No-one believes it.

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  47. Lynn’s “estimates” are untrustworthy. He is not the Grand High Priest of “HBD” as some seem to want him to be.

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  48. People marry within a narrow range of IQ points of themselves, probably less than half a standard deviation. So it would seem that over time ancestry would have an effect.

    This is really exacerbated with the modern trend of using post-secondary education venues for assortative mating.

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  49. Or you believe it should be even higher than 1 SD?

    I don’t know, I’d like to see studies or statistical techniques that control for variables and show refugees and their source populations to be different or the same.

    Also data that looks at cultural effects.

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  50. These immigrants come from the Horn of Africa: Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia. Sure, they’re “African” but so are immigrants from Malta. Culturally, genetically, and historically, the Horn of Africa is closer to the Middle East than to sub-Saharan Africa.

    You’re creating a straw man of “African-ness” that nobody in this debate believes in.

    Respectfully, that “straw man” was present in your own article when you wrote:

    Clearly, high academic achievement is due to something that is very much present in Nigeria, a little bit in Ghana, and not at all in Somalia and Congo. Could this something be the Igbo? [Emphasis mine]

    Unless Igbo presence/absence can be used to explain the academic achievement of Middle East cultures?

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  51. I know that it is off-topic but I would like to add something because I don’t like the way my points are coming across. They have none of the balance which I prefer:

    Black Africans need not be depressed by these arguments.

    First, everyone is an individual and only has their own genes. Race is a somewhat useful category but only when looking at big effects and no-one should ever take it personally or be personally affected by it, time permitting.

    Second, Africa is home to many groups and, although it can be a useful shortcut to talk of those groups as a whole, doing so really dulls the diversity of the place. Some groups may perform well-above the continental mean, and may indeed perform as well as any group in the world.

    Third, IQ is very far from everything. Other qualities such as extraversion, joie de vivre and more, matter too. Clearly black Africans are higher in some qualities and lower in others, on average of course. I find the Chinese generally boring and Africans generally bright.

    Fourth, the IQ gap is not huge once environmental facts are taken into account. While it certainly has some explanatory power and is significant it does not doom Africa to endless poverty and failure. If the smartest fraction of a country offers the right leadership then the country can shine.

    Fifth, average genetic IQ can change rapidly. There are endless possibilities for how to pursue eugenic projects and these could, if extreme enough, transform a population in just one generation.

    So really no-one should be disheartened. Your IQ does not reflect your group’s average and your group’s average is not fixed by anything except your own lack of imagination. This is why HBD matters: to fix a problem we must first recognise it.

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  52. You found that supposed random Africans refugees score higher than African Americans in Seattle where Audacious Epigone estimate that average IQ of them would be among 94.

    So based on your thinking lines every group of non-selected ( and non-specified) afro-Americans who live in Seattle will score around 94??

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  53. “Life might be an IQ test when you are an engineer in Europe but life is not an IQ test for everybody.”

    Exactly – IQ tests do not test the ability to talk – the ability to converse with others is a major human trait. That ability is a true brain function.

    Europeans are great engineers – Africans are great talkers – they must be given credit for that ability.

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  54. What desperation and opportunism can explain, you seek to lay at the feet of IQ.

    Some people will be better at taking advantage of opportunities than other. Some people will be more effective achieving their goals in the face of desperation than others.

    This is a selection process, and there’s no reason to think the winners will be representative of the greater population, with respect to IQ or otherwise.

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  55. Black American IQ is 85. African IQ, if it weren’t depressed by the environment, would be around 80. Assuming selection of .5 to 1 SD, African immigrants would have an IQ of 87.5 – 95.

    If some ethnic groups in Africa have higher than average IQ, say 90, then immigrants from those groups would be around 97.5-105.

    All of this is plausible and fits with the data.

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  56. Respectfully, that “straw man” was present in your own article when you wrote:

    Clearly, high academic achievement is due to something that is very much present in Nigeria, a little bit in Ghana, and not at all in Somalia and Congo. Could this something be the Igbo? [Emphasis mine]

    Unless Igbo presence/absence can be used to explain the academic achievement of Middle East cultures?

    First, I don’t believe humans are genetically uniform on any continent, let alone Africa. We know that intellectual capacity is determined by many genes, possibly thousands. If the “HBD position” postulates that these genes vary between large continental populations (e.g., sub-Saharan Africans versus Europeans), why would they not also vary over a smaller geographic scale?

    If, as seems likely, Ashkenazi Jews have a higher mean IQ than do non-Jewish Europeans (and even Sephardic Jews), why would this sort of variation be absent from sub-Saharan Africa?

    The Horn of Africa isn’t even sub-Saharan Africa. It’s a completely different cultural region, as different as the Middle East is from Europe. But even if we look only at sub-Saharan Africa, we see major cultural differences. And over time cultural differences tend to produce genetic differences. We adapt just as much to our cultural environment as we do to our natural environment. More so, in fact.

    On the English GCSE, Somali students do worse than Nigerian (Igbo) students but not as badly as Congolese students. This is very roughly what I would expect. Keep in mind that we are trying to measure innate intellectual capacity with very imperfect instruments. GSCE is an imperfect proxy for IQ, and IQ is an imperfect proxy for innate intellectual capacity. So we are two steps removed from what we are trying to measure.

    Please don’t quote Lynn to me. HBD is not a religion, and Lynn isn’t Jesus. There have been two surveys of the literature since Lynn. Wicherts et al. (2010) suggests a mean IQ of 82 for sub-Saharan Africa and Rindermann (2013) makes a “best guess” of 75. I suspect intellectual capacity varies clinally throughout sub-Saharan Africa, with the Horn of Africa occupying an intermediate position between sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East (where mean IQs are about 90 or in the low 90s).

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  57. Clearly, you have no idea about what HBDers think. There are no “white genes” which magically raise IQ of every each white guy. Rather, the genes responsible for higher IQ, and they may be tens of thousands of them, are in higher frequencies in Europeans.

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  58. So? These are a people who weren’t bright enough to invent the wheel or develop something resembling a civilization and what they did have, they turned into a cess pit that even animals didn’t want.

    • Agree: Realist
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  59. William Shockley pointed out decades ago that blacks in America were undergoing dysgenic selection pressures at an astounding rate.

    I think that the author is criticizing an older view of HBD, which said that the races split up and we need to go 10s of thousands of years in the past to find origins of differences. People like Greg Chochrane, Henry Harpending, and Nicholas Wade have pointed out that all the evidence shows that evolution happens much more quickly than previously thought.

    In other words, modern-day Africans might not tell us much about American blacks and vice versa.

    Anyway, you’re talking about a few hundred students among the well-performing groups, and God knows the selection pressures that got them to Seattle in the first place. On the other hand, we have 100 years of intelligence testing and standardized test scores of a black population in the tens of millions, with massive efforts going towards trying to raise their standardized test scores.

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  60. Have you actually read Lynn? Or even Wechsler’s refutation of Lynn’s data? The IQ is based not on the outcomes, but on the results of many IQ tests + tests from which you can estimate IQ (as PISA or TIMSS). It’s not using only PISA or using only IQ; it’s getting similar results no matter whether you use PISA or IQ. Since IQ predicts success in life (i.e. when you test IQ early in childhood), including achievements in education, it’s really hard to argue that results of IQ tests or PISA is simply measuring “outcomes”.

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  61. Whether a student is labeled ELL or not is, of course, mostly a question of his or her proficiency in English. Students who are smarter and can pick up English easier will be more likely to be categorized as non-ELL. This means that the non-ELL students aren’t simply immigrants who have learned English but, to some extent, a cognitively selected subgroup of all immigrants.

    Bingo. Sailer pointed out at some point that “ELL” in California basically has come to mean Hispanic kids who aren’t very bright.

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  62. People marry within a narrow range of IQ points of themselves

    That may be true in modern Western (or Western-influenced) societies where everyone is free to choose their marriage partners after extensive “testing the waters”. For 99% of human history and for 99% of the world’s population, marriages were arranged for property, cultural, and kinship (clan, caste, guild) reasons. Marriages were contracted expressly for the purpose of running households and reproduction, not for companionship (one got that from friends and the “community”.) So I just cannot believe that marital selection has had any role in the evolution of intelligence.

    Geography, climate, sure, I can believe that, though every geographical condition on earth poses unique challenges to its human inhabitants, so saying that people in cold regions evolved higher intelligence to survive the harsh winters is something I find dubious. After a founding population has figured out clothing and shelter tricks, that knowledge just need be passed down the generations; the kids and grand-kids don’t need to be especially intelligent to understand how grandpa’s dicta will help them survive the winter.

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  63. “Chanda Chisala, originally from Zambia, has been a John S. Knight Visiting Fellow at Stanford University, a Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution, and a Reagan-Fascell Fellowship at the National Endowment for Democracy.”

    What were her degree’s in ? I’m betting soft (pseudo) science, psychology, sociology…..

    • Disagree: Deduction, Vendetta
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  64. ” Africans are great talkers ”

    But they have no idea what they are talking about.

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  65. “Rather, the genes responsible for higher IQ, and they may be tens of thousands of them, are in higher frequencies in Europeans.”

    And that is why Europeans, who are white, have on average a significantly higher IQ than sub-Saharan Africans.

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  66. “What were her degree’s in ? I’m betting soft (pseudo) science, psychology, sociology…..”

    She is a he. And he is a biochemist

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  67. What were her degree’s in ?

    At least get the gender right.

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  68. You think that black people were as smart, or smarter than white people in 1750?

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  69. Then why are the accepted IQ scores about the same?

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  70. “Seems like most of us are on the dumb side, but we don’t do near the harm that the high IQ types do with their grand ideas.”

    That’s easy to explain: government selects for reasonably intelligent psychopaths and reasonably intelligent psychopaths select for government.

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  71. Remember our goal. We only need to show that blacks in Africa would have a higher average IQ than native black Americans if they were moved from Africa to America since the African environment clearly depresses IQ, as both environmentalists and hereditarians agree in principle.

    Huh? Why is that a goal?

    The data from the Seattle Experiment shows that refugee children speaking different African languages at home in the US perform surprisingly well on the state tests, just like their fellow refugees who went to the UK, where they also start out with a large language barrier. Just like in the UK, they perform below whites (at least before sufficient linguistic assimilation), but still way above what is expected from their estimated national or racial (genotypic) IQs. Their performance above American blacks (labeled as “English-speaking” blacks) defies the common sociologist explanation that higher achieving black immigrants are simply the most driven members of their source populations (some were just in refugee camps), and it equally defies the modern hereditarian argument that they are just the most self-selected in intelligence relative to their source populations, unless we now start extending this cognitive self-selectivity and “assortative mating” quality to people who run to United Nations refugee camps for protection.

    Why? Can we declare a priori that these refugees are representative of their home populations?

    Surely the Somalian refugees coming straight from refugee camps with a large number lacking high school educations were not also selected for their wealth and intelligence inherited through long lines of African elites?

    Daniel Dennett once said that the word “surely” is a tell that the author of a piece is making a claim on very shaking ground. This is the quintessential example.

    Look, you’re taking ridiculous and foolish shortcuts. Given the weight of the evidence, if these refugees perform above average, then Occam’s Razor would lead us to suspect first that they are an elite sample. Instead of carelessly assuming that they’re not, would it not be better to be thorough and find out first before declaring victory for your rather silly claims?

    The low IQ scores of Ethiopia, using data that is relied on by hereditarians to make their comparative IQ calculations, shows that even if the Ethiopian refugees in Seattle were a slightly cognitively select group from their nation, these would still just be average IQ by African standards.

    Again, why? Do you have any idea how select these refugees are? Holy cow man.

    At the very least, some background on the refugees and their origins in Africa would be helpful – something a bit less superficial, I mean.

    • Agree: Stephen R. Diamond
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  72. Let’s be honest, there’s a large group of Africans, although minute as a percentage of their different home countries’ populations, who go and get great credentials at the best Western universities and then, if they go back, they sit in their clubs, eat imported food and remain entirely disengaged from the 99.99 percent of their countrymen, all the while considering themselves middle class because one of their acquaintances is even richer and even more isolated than them.

    I’m taking it your another expert on Africa who has never been there?

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  73. Respectfully, that “straw man” was present in your own article when you wrote:

    You just got dropped, Pete; you and David Lemieux in less than a week. It’s been an epoch to forget for the poutine-eaters.

    …but you did get Trudeau in office…there’s that.

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  74. No, I’ve been there and I doubt you have. I’m sure Mr Chisala recognises my first hand experience. Although who knows how much he agrees with the perceptions I’ve formed from them. Nonetheless, they are my perceptions, honestly formed and without malice.

    I assume you’re another black American who thinks that he gets Africa because he’s black. Sort of like how Rastafarians bizarrely made a God out of the Ethiopian King and often visit Ethiopia where they’re thought of as nothing more than a bunch of total freaks.

    Or if we’re really playing the random assumptions game, I assume that you think that every December every African family celebrates Kwanza with their aunt La-sha and uncle Deshawntavious. Yes, I assume you’re another one of them.

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  75. You all a bunch of racist. Blacks are better in every way than whites or any other group. For sure in sports and music an we would be in IQ tests if the tests were made up by Blacks. But whites make the tests so that whites can do best. The answer is hard quotas for colleges and hiring. And for test sores. Or let Blacks make the tests and then we see who be the genius. Or something…

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  76. Anonymous
    says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    Lynn has argued that exact thing, so have others. As seen in this paper of Lynn’s

    http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/lynn2010.pdf

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  77. this was meant as an example. What I wanted to say: IQ tends to be more relevant in developed countries and IQ tends to be more relevant in specific professions. Of course becoming a good engineer requires a high IQ everywhere in the world.

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  78. that is exactly what makes somebody a good talker. and this a real, valuable quality!

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  79. Nope. That is not what the paper says. It does not say that any mean IQ would be even near to 68 given a first world environment….why waste my time like that?

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  80. @ Jayman, please don’t comment here again, or on any of my articles. (And I won’t comment on your blog posts either, obviously). Thanks.

    As for the other commenters, let’s try to keep a civil and respectful tone as much as possible if you wish the person you’re addressing to engage you in a rational exchange (especially the writer of the article — obviously). There are many others (on both sides of the debate) who are taking this issue seriously, so if you believe it is somehow beneath you, it is easy to just stay away, no?

    Secondly (for the remaining commenters again), please also try to avoid the easy fallacies committed by some others here who obviously do not understand how logic works.

    If I make a claim based on some evidence about something and you believe there is something else that negates my claim, it is your duty to prove your counter-claim with evidence (which I can then also attack if it is inconsistent with your own claims/premises/further evidence, and so on); it is not my duty to start looking for evidence that your arbitrary counter-claim is untrue.

    For example, if you believe that my claims are easily falsified by the “fact” that there is very high selectivity among Somalian refugees, the burden of proof is on you to present your evidence for this clearly positive claim or “fact” and not on me to prove that your arbitrary counter-intuitive “fact” is untrue.

    And your counter-“fact” is obviously not proved by its consistency with the rest of your system of models or claims, no matter how much you imagine that it has lots and lots of evidence. That’s called a circular argument, and to maintain your system of models by that method makes it (look like) a pseudoscience – it is unfalsifiable – since it rejects all possible negation a priori, like some epistemological axiom.

    In real science, it can take only ONE instance to disprove what you thought was universally proven. Or at least to make you rethink an aspect of it.

    Thank you.

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  81. Being a good talker basically relies on the intellectual factor of general retrieval capacity. In one study, American Negroes were .3 s.d. above U.S. whites on this factor. It explains why negroes do so well at extemperaneousness (noted by Stave Sailer).

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  82. Well it looks like one thing both sides agree on – Lynn’s IQ estimates are hopelessly off the mark.

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  83. For example, if you believe that my claims are easily falsified by the “fact” that there is very high selectivity among Somalian refugees, the burden of proof is on you to present your evidence for this clearly positive claim or “fact” and not on me to prove that your arbitrary counter-intuitive “fact” is untrue.

    As you almost surruptitiously recognize, who has the burden of proof really depends on whether the “fact” relied on is plausible. That’s what’s apparently being debated here. Jayman more than others made that clear: banning him does not serve inquiry.

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  84. I think Chanda wants to have a debate with people who agree with his premises.

    And to be fair, it would make the debate go much smoother for him.

    (Having said that, JayMan has a history of doing the exact same thing at his website, so perhaps Chanda and JayMan deserve each other.)

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  85. Black American IQ is 85. African IQ, if it weren’t depressed by the environment, would be around 80. Assuming selection of .5 to 1 SD, African immigrants would have an IQ of 87.5 – 95.

    If some ethnic groups in Africa have higher than average IQ, say 90, then immigrants from those groups would be around 97.5-105.

    All of this is plausible and fits with the data.

    Yes, but it takes us back to where we started: regression to the mean. The point of my first article was that if the black immigrants from very low IQ nations are just barely making it into these first world IQs due to high selection from their low IQ populations, then regression to the mean will ensure that their children will fall way below that threshold. It is therefore not expected of them to also have children who equally “make it.”

    If we accept your numbers above without too much quibbling, for example, there will still be only one refugee parent who will be selected by this selective immigration process. That’s how the system works. The other parent and the children just come along once one is admitted. This will necessarily mean that the other parent will be the cause of offspring regression (before we even talk about any other sources of regression).

    If you do the math now, you will fail to explain the performance of their children in Seattle and elsewhere. The other higher IQ ethnic immigrant example you gave will also fail to produce children who will equal the white mean (in the UK or something), if that’s what you meant.

    It is at this point that many people now just start proposing random selection measures, by working backwards from the answer, that start getting absurd. Whatever selection measures you propose have to make sense in the real world. If your numbers start looking like the Somalian refugees have the IQs of Somalian medical doctors and yet you know, for example, that they commit many crimes and have other characteristics in the US that reflect more of a much lower IQ, according to your own theory, then you have some big contradiction.

    Or it might be that your numbers suggest that the era when only Somalian students on university scholarships were being admitted to the US now appears much less selected than the era when the US started accepting anyone from Somalia, which is absurd. The burden of proof is therefore on you if you are claiming high selection.

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  86. Explain how you think it’s plausible that these Ethiopian and Somali refugees were selected to the nth degree for high IQ, the elite of the elite as JayMan implied. How hard would it have to be to get into a refugee camp to produce an average IQ two standard deviations above the norm?

    JayMan and others have not offered a plausible explanation as to what would be the factors for such high selectivity, rather they’ve simply assumed that it must be so because they don’t like the results of the data.

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  87. I enjoyed your thoughtful and non-polemical discussion of this important issue.

    What is your opinion on directly studying this issue through the analysis of genes? I.e. doing a GWAS for IQ with different groups and seeing how the frequency of relevant genes differs. I feel like this is more likely to give a conclusive answer than these sorts of social analyses, which tend to make a lot of assumptions.

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  88. The population of Zambia is 14.5 million.

    .01% of that is 14,500
    .001% of that is 1,450
    .0001% of that is 145

    How cloistered are these people? Are they living in Mensa monasteries? I don’t doubt your description of a certain class of of people acting like this, but I doubt they can be entirely oblivious of how much smarter than the lower class masses they are. That’s something every elite throughout history has known and prided itself on.

    And they can’t be that insulated from it because there are a lot of stupid people who still end up in positions of power and influence. Idi Amin was a moron, Bokassa was a moron, lots of powerful people in Africa aren’t really intellectuals or sophisticates.

    I can understand the intellectual elites keeping these sorts of people outside their social circles as well, but it’s impossible not to at least notice them at some point.

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  89. As you almost surruptitiously recognize, who has the burden of proof really depends on whether the “fact” relied on is plausible. That’s what’s apparently being debated here. Jayman more than others made that clear: banning him does not serve inquiry.

    I can’t “ban” someone for debate, I love debate! He was using unnecessarily disrespectful terms like “foolish” and “silly” etc in his post, just out of nowhere! And he was just making a basic point that I’ve in fact already addressed from other commenters here.

    Now, I happen to be one of those people who notice any small contradictions very quickly, and I obviously don’t mind innocent contradictions in argument. But I absolutely detest anything that looks like hypocrisy.

    This is what that same person wrote on his own first blog post at Unz, about how he wants commenters on his blog to behave:

    I welcome commenters. My comment policy is fairly simple. Be respectful, please be ready to support your case upon request, and generally be cool. [My emphasis]

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  90. Explain how you think it’s plausible that these Ethiopian and Somali refugees were selected to the nth degree for high IQ, the elite of the elite as JayMan implied. How hard would it have to be to get into a refugee camp to produce an average IQ two standard deviations above the norm?

    As I’m ignorant of the facts on the ground, I don’t have a plausibility assessment. That’s why I find reading the debate useful. Unfortunately, it’s now impossible to address this question to Jayman.

    However, the debate is stymied because both sides wrongly claim the support of logic and scientific method. Jayman invokes Occam’s Razor; Chanda invokes the duty to defend “clearly positive” claims. These are mantras people recite when they can’t win the argument on the substance.

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  91. I think Jayman was being respectful, though disagreeing. Such criticism should be welcomed, certainly not banned (banning should be reserved for people who lack civility, eg, go ad hominem, use foul language, suggest doxing). No big argument can explain ‘all the facts’, because 1) all the ‘facts’ aren’t really true, and 2) there’s noise in those facts, so arguments will always persist. Bloggers at Unz should be used to skepticism.

    The point is whether your main argument is true or not. Truth comes out of argument by a bunch of biased individuals. We all have our priors.

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  92. Chisala says:
    “African Americans have on average about 25 percent of European ancestry and this increases their IQs above that of Africans in Africa” – Richard Lynn, Race Differences in Intelligence.

    This “white blood” theory is comprehensively debunked not only by CHisala, but by conservative Thomas Sowell as well. See his Knowledge and Decisions 1983. The black immigrants from places like Nigeria for example have little “white blood” – yet outperform native Black Americans who on average have some 13-20% European genetic material. In addition, the African immigrants face language barriers that the American natives do not face- so right off the plane they are handicapped. Nor are Africans a special case. Immigrants from the black Caribbean, who have much less white blood than native blacks, have long outperformed native US blacks earning such derogatory titles as JEW-Maican from the natives. As Thomas Sowell showed way back in 1981′s book Markets and Minorities, some of these immigrants had already surpassed the general white average in income and education. (Sowell 1981)

    This in part, contradicts the “immigrant supermen” theory for when the black Caribbean folks were compared to white people who were also “SELECTIVE” immigrants. Whites coming to America were also “selected”- they were the more driven whites wanting to escape the bleak prospects of “Old Europe.” SO the immigrant drive notion cuts both ways- white Americans are ALSO a “select” group, but they STILL, in some cases, fall below the Africans and Caribbean’s, and in general, the selected white American immigrants, fall below Asian performance. SO much for the “magic whitening drops” of popular “HBD” lore.

    ——————————————————————————-

    Their performance above American blacks (labeled as “English-speaking” blacks) defies the common sociologist explanation that higher achieving black immigrants are simply the most driven members of their source populations (some were just in refugee camps), and it equally defies the modern hereditarian argument that they are just the most self-selected in intelligence relative to their source populations, unless we now start extending this cognitive self-selectivity and “assortative mating” quality to people who run to United Nations refugee camps for protection. (It is not necessarily all who were from these camps, but that doesn’t matter since even those who were from there are performing above native black Americans).

    Indeed. Even if they were self-selected, they on average come from much poorer backgrounds than the Black American upper classes making all the big money. In short, the poorer African immigrants, outperform the richer Black Americans, and in some cases whites. In England, on some measures, they outperform on average, native whites, who have all the advantages and are not in coming from refugee camps.

    ——————————————————————-
    In 2006, HBD blogger “Audacious Epigone” found a way of estimating the black IQs of different states using Lynn’s methods (on NAEP test scores) and he found Washington State on top with an estimated black children IQ of 94.5 (it was just a little lower when he repeated the calculations in 2013 with some slight changes). They were actually number one in the country in those first 2006 estimates

    And this tracks with the data from the UK and the US re the African immigrants.

    ——————————————————————-
    On the other hand, Ethiopians test scores are quite at the bottom in Africa, as reported by Lynn (Zambia was always reported as the top scoring sub-Saharan African nation,

    Indeed. This too debunks the “white blood magic” myth of HBD lore, that claims Ethiopians are a “mixed race” population from the Italian occupation, or various Caucasoid Middle Eastern immigrations. Well all this “Caucasoid blood” should make the Ethiopians show up superior in the sweepstakes. Only they don’t- again debunking the HBD claim.

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  93. Chanda posted a study and offered a serious argument, JayMan said the words “Occam’s Razor” and offered nothing to back it up. A misuse of it anyway, as he’s now proposing there’s some complex, or at the very least non self-evident mechanism causing refugee camps to select for those of exceptional intelligence.

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  94. He was using unnecessarily disrespectful terms like “foolish” and “silly” etc in his post, just out of nowhere!

    Well, I’m convinced he really thinks that you’re contentions deserve that description. I agree that, even so, it is disrespectful. I think it that the first word he posted, “huh,” is even more disrespectful.

    But to exclude someone from the discussion for such mild shows of disrespect amount to excluding commenters with somewhat disagreeable personalities. I don’t think any disrespect was intended, just bad manners not outside the norm.

    Perhaps it’s OK to ban people for minor shows of disrespect – but only if the ban hammer is wielded objectively. Would you have banned him for showing similar disrespect to some other commenter? I don’t think so; some commenters have demonstrated greater levels of disrespect (to others) without consequence.

    You can’t have fair debate when special standards apply to how commenters treat you.

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  95. Stephen says:
    However, the debate is stymied because both sides wrongly claim the support of logic and scientific method. Jayman invokes Occam’s Razor; Chanda invokes the duty to defend “clearly positive” claims. These are mantras people recite when they can’t win the argument on the substance.

    Not really. There is no so-called “styming” of any debate. Jayman made his claim, and it was shown in detail to have several weaknesses. Some other folks have debated Jayman before and he is often the first on his own blog to delete people’s comments when he is getting the worse of an exchange, or when people don’t agree with him. As can be seen above, Chanda has done nothing fo the sort. All are free to go back and make a fresh case, if they can. What “stymied” debate?

    And one of Jayman’s markers is the sweeping, sometimes messianic nature of his statements, as if only he has “discovered” such and such “truth” and all who disagree are “wrong” – as if he, an amateur blogger at random, possessed such special insight over and above numerous serious mainstream scholars. Note- too often, it is not solid logic and data being presented in reply, but said sweeping declarations, including the tactic of throwing out claims and leaving them for opponents to refute rather than put forward a credible argument up front.

    —————————————————————————————-
    Chisala says:
    If I make a claim based on some evidence about something and you believe there is something else that negates my claim, it is your duty to prove your counter-claim with evidence (which I can then also attack if it is inconsistent with your own claims/premises/further evidence, and so on); it is not my duty to start looking for evidence that your arbitrary counter-claim is untrue. For example, if you believe that my claims are easily falsified by the “fact” that there is very high selectivity among Somalian refugees, the burden of proof is on you to present your evidence for this clearly positive claim or “fact” and not on me to prove that your arbitrary counter-intuitive “fact” is untrue.

    Indeed. Less sweeping declarations of HBD “truth” and more credible argument would help his case. But he usually doesn’t stick around long when contradicted.

    —————————————————————————————-
    The point of my first article was that if the black immigrants from very low IQ nations are just barely making it into these first world IQs due to high selection from their low IQ populations, then regression to the mean will ensure that their children will fall way below that threshold. It is therefore not expected of them to also have children who equally “make it.”

    In addition to a much poorer background than “First World” people, the Black Africans also face a language barrier upon arrival, which the Black Americans, and the white Americans that the Africans sometimes outperform, do not have. And yes, some of these refugees who are making good HAVE literally come from refugee camps. Case in point Mawi Asgedom. See his book: “Of Beetles and Angels: A Boy’s Remarkable Journey from a Refugee Camp to Harvard” 2002. He grew up playing soccer with rocks and later fled on a long trek from his native country during a civil war, living in a refugee camp for 3 years with his family, even as some fellow refugees died from hunger and disease. His father was no high powered bureaucrat or politician, or businessman, or professional like a doctor, but a medical assistant of modest means. Nor was his mother anything special. The family sold their 6 goats to finance the long wilderness trek out of the war zone.

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  96. Well it looks like one thing both sides agree on – Lynn’s IQ estimates are hopelessly off the mark.

    Well, I really can’t involved in this long discussion thread, and I certainly haven’t studied the issues. I’ve also been quite critical of some of Lynn’s analyses in the past:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/unz-on-raceiq-response-to-lynn-and-nyborg/

    But I wonder if Lynn’s claims of current African IQs sometimes being as low as 65-70 are actually so totally absurd as most commenters seem to think.

    For example, there seems a great deal of solid testing evidence indicating that the IQs of Italian-Americans in the early decades of the 20th century were generally around 75-80 relative to a mainstream white mean of 100. So if Italians living in America then had IQs as low as 75, is it really so utterly ridiculous that African villagers living in the rural Congo today might have IQs as low as 65?

    Much of this early 20th century IQ testing data was collected by Dr. Clifford Kirkpatrick, which I found very helpful and interesting a couple of years ago, and you can apparently buy his republished book on Amazon for as little as $4.67. So maybe someone should do that and see what they think:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/040500558X

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  97. “Her mother and father… came to the U.S. from Ethiopia in 1983 with no education or job.”

    Okay, Biiftu Dureso’s father arrived with no education. But if his daughter is so naturally smart, how come he’s still only a janitor after 32 years in this country?

    I’m not being totally facetious here. This example is pretty odd in light of the first article’s claim that we are not witnessing regression to the mean among immigrants from these groups. Here, at first glance, one might guess that Biiftu’s father was an outlier and a sharp regression occurred in the upward direction.

    If African immigrants are high-achievers but we do not witness a noticeable downward regression, a natural question follows: there some other factor impeding first-generation immigrants that is not impeding their children? It sounds like we are not often measuring the cognitive abilities of the first-generation immigrants since they are often older than high-school-aged when they arrive, so their abilities are estimated by their life outcomes, while their children are enrolled in school and so their cognitive abilities can be estimated from standardized tests and school performance. We clearly see radically different life outcomes between Biiftu and her father. Is there a factor that especially affects the life outcomes of African immigrants lacking schooling credentials from their host country?

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  98. By God, man. You do know 50% of Nigerian-American adults have PhDs. 50% of Nigerians do not have PhDs. What can’t you get about that?

    And Afro-Caribbeans only surpassed Whites in education, not income.

    And who are the top-performing ethnic groups in the Seattle sample, man? Ethiopian and Eritrean ones! Totally contradicting your point! BTW, I think that’s absolutely meaningless. Yemenis are not that intelligent, on average.

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  99. I live in Seattle. The black population of this city is around 8% with around 30% coming from Africa.

    One thing to consider when using Seattle as the basis of any thesis is this city’s demographics have been changing rapidly. The African American middle class has been leaving Seattle for some time. This is not unique to Seattle, it was happening in San Francisco when I lived there too. Many employed blacks who cannot qualify for subsidized housing leave, forced out by gentrification. The remaining fraction might not average 94 IQ as quoted in this blog entry.

    I found this article from last year discussing gentrification from the same newspaper whose report forms the basis of this blog entry:

    http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2014/11/12/as-seattle-gets-richer-the-citys-black-households-get-poorer/

    While Seattle’s median household income soared to an all-time high of $70,200 last year, wages for blacks nose-dived to $25,700 — a 13.5 percent drop from 2012. Among the 50 largest U.S. cities, Seattle now has the ninth lowest income for black households.

    Seattle, which has the largest black community in the Pacific Northwest, also lags the country as a whole. Nationally, black households have median earnings of $34,800 — 35 percent higher than Seattle.

    While last year’s decline is particularly dramatic, black household wealth in Seattle has in fact been spiraling downward for years. Remarkably, the earnings were higher in 2000 than they are today, before adjusting for inflation: The 2000 household median was $32,000, equal to $44,800 in 2013 dollars.

    Also, the rate of homeownership has dropped by nearly half since 2000. Today, just one out of five black households in Seattle own its home. (The census defines a black household as one in which the person identified on census forms as “householder” is black.)

    As the article above indicates when read in full, the remaining blacks are poorer due to being 30 percent African immigrants and the loss of the black middle class to surrounding cities.

    “if the good guys won, how come everything gets worse?”

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  100. Not really. There is no so-called “styming” of any debate.

    Intellectually stymied, not suppressed (that came later).

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  101. You make an extraordinary claim. That Somalians who make it to America are not selected for intelligence and then insist that others disprove it.

    Oh well…

    ‘The most intriguing finding concerns the difference between the desire to
    move and concrete possibilities of doing so.

    Table 20 illustrates that roughly 16% of interviewees envisage remaining in the host country in coming years, while another 16% plan to return to their country of origin.

    At the same time,
    a significant proportion of interviewees (42%) wish to live elsewhere, in
    places such as North America (46%), Europe (34%), Gulf States or Egypt
    (3%), Australia (3%), other African countries (1%), or in a yet unknown or 22% of those hoping to move farther have the actual resources and strategy to undertake their journey.

    It is quite clear from these figures that a majority of all those wishing to move further will not be able to achieve their desire to do
    so simply because they lack the financial and material plans necessary to organize such a journey.’

    Do I also have to prove that having strategy and resources correlates with IQ?

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.unhcr.org/50aa0d6f9.pdf&ved=0CCEQFjABahUKEwj9x6yAidjIAhVD1BoKHVBdDbM&usg=AFQjCNEk5CWcncLtO-rAYa9WuI2jggNOPA&sig2=bv8AXYJVzxhbA7kenon_pQ

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  102. In real science, it can take only ONE instance to disprove what you thought was universally proven. Or at least to make you rethink an aspect of it.

    I saw David Copperfield fly once. I don’tknow how he did it. I guess I’m no longer allowed to believe in gravity?

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  103. It’s not just getting across a border to a refugee camp. It’s having the strategy and resources to move from that refugee camp to America.

    Considering the difficulty those hosting these refugees have in repatriating them, both steps are considered highly desirable.

    In a country of origin where the majority of people don’t leave their village or part of town, these two steps represent an immense challenge and are therefore immensely selective.

    Don’t worry, I have also posted an excerpt from a UN report that concurs with what I am saying in a separate post.

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  104. My father is a Ghanaian immigrant who came to the US in 1962, and has returned at least 20 times. I am actually, technically, next in line to be a village chief, when he dies, although it will never happen.

    So there it is.

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  105. Idi Amin was a moron

    Amin may have been a ‘moron’ but he was one of the first two Ugandans to receive an Army commission from Britain.

    And that wasn’t a fluke, he promoted all the way from assistant cook up every step incredibly fast.

    He thus easily proved himself as one of the most capable among his peers.

    The population of Zambia is 14.5 million.

    .01% of that is 14,500
    .001% of that is 1,450
    .0001% of that is 145

    How cloistered are these people? Are they living in Mensa monasteries

    When they see someone with indoor plumbing as normal or even poor yet those with indoor plumbing are in the top 10 percent of the country socio-economically, I have to say that these guys are extremely cloistered.

    It’d be like a Brit believing that most people who go to private schools are normal or even poor.

    And if Brits were refugees it’d be like someone saying that his fellow refugees were not selected because look at them, some didn’t even go to Eton.

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  106. Perhaps, but personality attributions almost never have a positive impact on a discussion.

    I am more interested in your re-analysis of the numbers you described in the first comment. Could you publish it somewhere so one can see all the steps?

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  107. I call bravo sierra on this. What I’m seeing is the author claiming to welcome criticisms and then erecting a bunch of arbitrary and obscure rules that critics must follow. Otherwise, the author is free to dismiss them. In your case, you are using the tactic of disparaging the motivations of the critic to dismiss his arguments.

    Frankly, if you or the author can’t handle Jayman’a rather mild rhetorical style, it says everything about you and your intellectual confidence and nothing about Jayman. The author threw a tantrum and demanded Jayman leave the debate. That was his choice and he is the one responsible for buggering the debate. It’s fair to suspect that it was intentional.

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  108. Chanda,

    Your claims re. philosophy of science are too strong, too ‘Popperian’. In reality, a single piece of evidence inconsistent or improbable with a larger system of beliefs does not refute the larger system. Reasonable people do not just drop an entire system of beliefs when they find one piece that doesn’t fit. In general, the first thing they do is to evaluate the odd piece critically. Of course, if done to extreme levels, this would mean the system is unfalsifiable, but usually it is not taken to that extreme. Justification is about coherence/consilience of many beliefs.

    For instance, for many years the movement of Mercury was known to not fit with predictions from Newtonian mechanics. Many attempts within the Newtonian system were made to explain this, tho arguably none were successful. Still, experts did not just drop their belief in Newtonian mechanics based on the single odd piece and they were right not to do so. Eventually, Einsteinian physics came and successfully explained the odd movement of Mercury.

    I recommend reading Sokal’s writings on philosophy of science. It is the best writing on philosophy of science that I have read. It can be found on libgen for free:

    http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=c26c837ae373d43540c878379b1daad2

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  109. We, as in Davide Piffer and most (mostly Piffer), have already analyzed the GWAS results in the fashion you propose. They do support global hereditarianism in that the SNP score correlates .8 or .9 with Lynn’s IQs.

    However, there are lots of problems with this such as spatial autocorrelation (genetic drift) and differential linkage disequilibrium patterns meaning that the SNPs that correlate with causal variants in Europeans often don’t do so in Africans, or at least, we don’t know whether they do or not.

    Currently, we are waiting for the results of the newest GWAS to come out. It found about 70-80 SNPs, much larger than the previous one. This will solve the sampling problem if using only SNPs with p < alpha. One can also use the polygenic scores which avoid the NHST approach. We have done this with the current SNP betas (Rietveld et al, 2013) and results were also in line with global hereditarianism. This analysis is still unpublished however and it needs SAC analysis.

    See my recent commentary paper: https://thewinnower.com/papers/2735-polygenic-scores-genetic-engineering-validity-of-gwas-results-across-major-racial-groups-and-the-piffer-method

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  110. Wow, my flippant assumptions were as wrong as were yours!

    Although, I did not notice that you omitted whether you had ever been to Ghana or not. I imagine that I’m reading too much into it when I entertain the idea that you’ve never been there, but just to check, have you?

    Also, thanks for another datapoint for my argument that African immigrants to the West are under severe selective pressure.

    Fun fact: in 1962 Ghana had the same GDP per capita as Italy, but it’s now something like ten times lower.

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  111. That’s a very educated way of saying ‘you can only pick the theory that best fits.’

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  112. On the other hand, Ethiopians test scores are quite at the bottom in Africa, as reported by Lynn (Zambia was always reported as the top scoring sub-Saharan African nation

    We have no good IQ data from Ethiopia. There is a study of 134 children in an orphanage:

    Aboud, F., Samuel, M., Hadera, A. & Addus, A. (1991). Intellectual, social, and nutritional status of children in an Ethiopian orphanage. Social Science and Medicine, 33, pp. 1275-1280.

    I haven’t been able to locate this study, but orphans are hardly a representative sample of a population. The same criticism can be made of other studies cited by Lynn with respect to Africa. The datasets are small and probably not representative.

    I understand that Richard Lynn is greatly admired by many people here, but his estimate of mean sub-Saharan IQ has been challenged by Heiner Rindermann, who is an HBD-friendly researcher. In general, there is a tendency on both sides of this debate to make claims that are not justified by the limited data available.

    I’m not challenging the conclusion that mean IQ is low in sub-Saharan Africa. That, in itself, seems to be a robust finding. In particular, it is supported by data on IQ-related alleles. But it’s a lot harder to get good data on national differences. It is especially difficult, and downright strange, to extrapolate the general finding of low sub-Saharan IQ to a region that lies outside sub-Saharan Africa and for which we have limited data.

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  113. Although, I did not notice that you omitted whether you had ever been to Ghana or not. I imagine that I’m reading too much into it when I entertain the idea that you’ve never been there, but just to check, have you?

    Also, thanks for another datapoint for my argument that African immigrants to the West are under severe selective pressure.

    Went once as a child, have not been as an adult. There is no selective pressure, tribal titles are passed from generation to generation, and do not imply any sort of meritocracy, which is one of the problems in Africa. My father was able to immigrate to the US before the change in immigration law in ’65, simply because he worked for a shipping company.

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  114. “Amin is a splendid man by any standards and is held in great respect and affection by his British colleagues. … He is tough and fearless and in the judgment of everybody … completely reliable. Against this he is not very bright and will probably find difficulty in dealing with the administrative side of command.”
    OG Griffith, 1969 despatch on Amin’s promotion to major, released by Public Record Office. Amin hailed as splendid, but not very bright, June 23, 2000, Richard Norton Taylor, The Guardian.

    “Idi Amin is a splendid type and a good [rugby] player … but virtually bone from the neck up, and needs things explained in words of one letter.”
    Document from Public Record Office quoting “a British official”, August 18, 2003, Anton La Guardia, Daily Telegraph.

    Success is not a universal indicator for intellectual superiority.

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  115. Thanks for posting that.

    Perhaps what we ought to do then is find a case in which we can compare the children of African immigrants to a highly selected pool of American blacks.

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  116. Even if the titles were strictly hereditary, went straight to the first son, and no-one ever lost their title through their own idiocy then there would still be a lot of selective pressure.

    It would just be felt through the selection of his wife. Love matches are very normal traditionally all over Africa and so the chief would be assortatively mated – smart chicks want to marry the Chief. Even where they are not and it is the wife’s family that is picked, there is just as much selection pressure – smart mothers marry their daughter to the Chief.

    And even if all of this is nonsense, I bet not many of the people in the village were successful and intelligent enough to work for a shipping country and immigrate to America! Otherwise the village would be empty by now.

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  117. The question is not whether you would find him smart but whether he was smarter than the majority of his countrymen.

    Success is not a universal indicator for intellectual superiority

    Of course it is not, but it has excellent predictive power. Why else would every modern military use IQ tests as one of their first filters and main factors in deciding what role an applicant should be given?

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  118. Where does disrespect come from?

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  119. I will try to summarize your post Chisandra, politely…

    ” Few ”evidences” prove that average subsaharian is not just smarter than average afro-americans* but equally smarter to average white north europeans” (and ”east asians”…)

    Chisandra,
    again, please, we have to be objective here, tell us your estimative for ”genotypical/real iq” of subsaharian africans, aka, the averages (and not super-mega-ultra-master-plus selected elites).

    Sorry if i was bad mannered, i’m try to help!

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  120. In real science, it can take only ONE instance to disprove what you thought was universally proven. Or at least to make you rethink an aspect of it.

    Chanda,

    Your claims re. philosophy of science are too strong, too ‘Popperian’. In reality, a single piece of evidence inconsistent or improbable with a larger system of beliefs does not refute the larger system. Reasonable people do not just drop an entire system of beliefs when they find one piece that doesn’t fit. In general, the first thing they do is to evaluate the odd piece critically.

    I absolutely believe that too. Which is why I chose my words carefully. It CAN take only one instance to disprove your position. That’s a fact and it does not disagree with what you’ve just written. The key word is “disprove”, not just being “inconstent or improbable with a larger system of beliefs.” That’s why debate is highly encouraged, to establish that this inconsistency does rise to the level of refutation (as I contend, in this case).

    The attitude I was rejecting is the one by that individual I banned, which is very different from what you are saying. He believes you shouldn’t even pay attention to someone who brings such an empirical challenge just because Occam’s razor says he is likely wrong.

    And it is not the first time he is trying to stop debate on that basis. This is what he wrote about this in the blog comments of Peter Frost’s article:

    My thought on Chisala’s piece is that there is simply no there there. I didn’t bother much with it because it is clear that, quite frankly, he hasn’t the foggiest idea what he’s talking about. I was able to pick apart the key flaws with one comment, both to this piece and his previous. It’s not worth the attention being given to it.
    Yes, there is variation within sub-Saharan Africa. Yes, there is individual variation within any group. Yes, selective migration is a key factor to consider whenever people move across space. Yes, both behavioral genetics and the breeder’s equation do work, so the moral is that if you find something that purportedly invalidates them, Occam’s Razor says you likely screwed up somewhere. [My emphasis]

    Setting aside the hypocrisy of saying there should be no attention given to my articles and he didn’t “bother with it,” while he keeps coming to comment on them (on UNZ and other forums!), these statements certainly do not sound like encouraging people to “evaluate the odd piece critically.”

    And of course I am not challenging “behavioral genetics and the breeder’s equation” etc, as I have made clear, but a straw man is always easier to beat.

    The point of contention seems to be just one: how much immigrant selection is coming from Africa. If it is not super-high, then a concrete assumption among HBD racial scientists will be difficult to sustain: the idea that the IQ gap that exists between blacks and whites (and others) is (ultimately) a result of the differential evolution of the major races – giving whites and Asians a genetic advantage in intelligence through bigger brains, etc etc.

    Whether there is high immigrant selection or not is an empirical quantitative question. You do not make your case by just saying, “are you saying there is no selection at all” (a false dichotomy) or “prove that there is no high selection” (shifting burden of proof – prove that God does not exist), etc. And you do not just bring some little calculation of how select the immigrants are in theory (worked backwards from the answer) and say “there, look – I was able to pick apart the key flaws in one comment” – because that is just standard circular reasoning.

    And of course, you don’t then just come out with a condescending “huh?… this is silly… foolish…why?… huh…” to an outside challenger, when the assumption you are insulting him for (that there is no high cognitive selection among refugees from Africa that we can see in the real world – but you are free to show us) has ALSO been made by your own HBD scholars who know that you can not just work backwards from the desired answers. Frost does not believe there is any high selection from Africa. Neither does Fuerst (from his research) or, apparently, Charles Murray (according to The Bell Curve), and others. Is it rational to be utterly disrespectful to an outsider for sharing that same opinion in his analysis?

    So, even without Karl Popper’s formulation of the falsification standard, I am sure you can agree that if this became a common attitude among HBD scholars to instances of possible counter-evidence, it would certainly look like we are dealing with a pseudo or cult science that is dominated by infantile rationalists.

    • Agree: Stephen R. Diamond
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  121. Chanda Chisala,

    I hope you won’t get angry because I repeat my question. There is no hidden meaning in those questions, I am genuinely interested in your answers.

    Assume you are right, and black immigrants and their children have much better educational outcomes than American blacks. What is the reason of white-black gap in US then?

    (1) It can’t be poverty
    (2) Can’t be parasite load
    (3) can’t be poor nutrition
    (4) and, that would also definetely prove that it cannot possibly be racism.

    What would be then your opinion what causes the persistent white-black gap in USA? Lack of motivation? Entitlement culture? Despise for education seen as “white”? Rap? This had to be one factor which impacts all blacks in USA, does not impact whites or asians, and does not impact black immigrants. Then, what is it?!

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  122. Egad. This thread is nothing but people with no direct or reliable evidence of the IQ of African immigrants pointing to their detractors saying I’m right unless you can produce reliable evidence that I’m wrong.

    Repent sinners! The lord’s wrath awaits you all!

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  123. What would be then your opinion what causes the persistent white-black gap in USA? Lack of motivation? Entitlement culture? Despise for education seen as “white”? Rap? This had to be one factor which impacts all blacks in USA, does not impact whites or asians, and does not impact black immigrants. Then, what is it?!

    My answer to that will be the subject of my last article (the one after the next one).

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  124. Chanda,

    Good comment. I have gone through a more elaborate description of the reasoning your post is based on, and there are a number of ways to think about it, including ways for it to fit with non-zero between group heritability. However, I shall detail it on my own blog. I’ll let you know when I’m done.

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  125. “Amin may have been a ‘moron’ but he was one of the first two Ugandans to receive an Army commission from Britain.”

    That doesn’t mean much cognitively. The British kept the more civilised (and pre-colonial politically dominant) Bantu peoples from the South out of the army. They deliberately recruited from the more primitive Nilotics of the North, who were considered more biddable.

    Amin, in particular, ingratiated himself via his rugby prowess and his knack for killing Mau Mau prisoners by stuffing socks into their oesophagus.

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  126. African children that come to America are smarter the American’s resident black children – that is the crux of this article.

    If this is true – then one can come to only one conclusion – American makes its black children dumb. Same genetics – yet one is smarter than the other.

    Hmm – must be – growing up black in America makes you dumb.

    It is a fact, that early childhood trauma stunts intellectual growth. America’s black children grow up surrounded by family and cultural trauma —– end of story.

    What do you say America?

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  127. Chisala wrote:
    And it is not the first time he is trying to stop debate on that basis. This is what [Jayman] wrote about this in the blog comments of Peter Frost’s article:
    ———————————————————–
    My thought on Chisala’s piece is that there is simply no there there. I didn’t bother much with it because it is clear that, quite frankly, he hasn’t the foggiest idea what he’s talking about. I was able to pick apart the key flaws with one comment, both to this piece and his previous. It’s not worth the attention being given to it…

    .
    The above illustrates Jayman’s typical “debating” style- namely sweeping generalizations and declarations, some of messianic flavor as if only he knows the “truth,” but with little substance in support. When put to the test, he invariably exits the field. He didn’t “pick apart” any flaws. He proffered a quick opinion bout “Occam’s Razor” – offered little supporting detail, and exited as usual. Even without the clash above, this is the typical pattern. And most parsimonious explanation is not necessarily what Jayman claims it is.He urges Chisala to “find out first.” But Chisala already indicated in Part 1 and 2: (a) the less affluent background of the migrants vis a vis Westerners, (b) the fact that some were refugees- that is people from very dire and challenging circumstances, such as Mawi Asgedom, whose family background is rather modest.

    No one disputes that those best equipped to immigrate will usually be first out of the pack. The question is whether such are “unrepresentative exceptions” of people in their homelands. As demonstrated below they are fairly representative because they are the exact same native stock as everyone else that took advantage of local educational opportunities as they came, got lucky in immigration lotteries and also proceeded to extend their education AFTER they reached their new countries. Second, they are a diverse lot- everything from temporary students to refugees forcibly displaced and made to flee via migration. Third, sweeping claims about being “unrepresentative” must be anchored in a true cross-section of the immigrants and their educational attainments before and after they arrived- something assorted claimants repeatedly fail to do. But let’s take just a quick look at the case – it suffers from at least 4 weaknesses:

    1. Failure of many studies to capture a reasonable cross-section of the African immigrant population.

    Immigration by an “opportunity driven” selection of people can be present in many migrant movements, BUT ALSO, so is more involuntary movement by people forced out by disasters – man-made or natural- from famine to war. There are about 1.6 million African immigrants in the US. Any claims relating to such a number must be based on a reasonable cross-section capturing the full diversity of the pool, whether they be a refugee selling his last 6 goats to flee into the Sudan to escape a war-zone, or high level academic professionals wanting higher level education and training outside their countries. In fact, the 1.6 million African immigrants to the US are a diverse lot. They include refugees, immigrants, temporary migrants, and illegal aliens. Trying to make out all such diversity as a matter of merely “cognitive elites” migrating is yet another “HBD” distortion of the overall picture.

    2. Failure to account for the diversity of Africans.

    Various studies often fail to clearly differentiate between the categories above, focusing sometimes on high level bureaucrats, or voluntary-legal migrants such as college students coming to study in the US or Britain- Obama’s father being an example of such. One study for example (Kamya 1997) used a sample of people from religious organizations who mainly came West to further their education. This does not at all give a fair picture of the range of African immigrants. Alolayan 2002 likewise studied high-achieving Nigerian immigrants, but his sample is mostly of high level civil servant and academic types, not a true-cross section of the 1.6 million African immigrants in the US. Yet another study, Obiakor et al 2000 found moderate to high levels of education among African immigrants and an almost religious devotion to education by respondents. But the sample size in question was a mere 16 immigrants- hardly a reasonable cross-section of a data-pool numbering over 1.6 million people.

    3. Failure to demonstrate the alleged massive flow or over-representation of alleged African “cognitive elites.”

    US Census estimates in the late 1990s (1997) show about 49% of African immigrants having degrees, but this lump sum percentage relates to Africans ALREADY living in the United States. It does not say how many of that 49 CAME INITIALLY with such degrees, or whether, as permanent residents, or temporary students, or refugees, they earned said degrees AFTER their arrival in the US. Some African high school grads landing in the US then going on to earn a college degree afterward are hardly the “exceptional” supermen some make them out to be.

    A cross-check with Britain in the 1990s also suggests that the incoming immigrants were hardly overloaded with “exceptions” and “elites.” According to the 1991 British Census, 26.5 percent of black Britons who were born in Africa had at least some college education. In contrast, only 13.4 percent of white Britons had gone to college. (JBHE 2000) This figure, again, like the US figure, does not say how many earned their degrees AFTER landing in Britain.

    In any event, EVEN IF we consider the 49% a putative “cognitive elite” that still leaves the majority- 51% – a NON cognitive elite. Likewise for England, even if we grant that the 27% who came with degrees or SOME college are the alleged “elites”, this still leaves 73% NON “elites.” Either way, the data debunks distorted claims of “massive” over-representation of alleged “elites” in the immigration pool.

    3. “Brain drain” arguments based on occupation likewise fail to establish any massive movement of “exceptional” Africans.

    The United States “Diversity Visa” only requires a high school diploma and 2 years of work experience- hardly a call for earth-shattering exceptionalism. Rotimi 2005 re “”brain drain” says that African immigrants are about 44% in professional, managerial and technical (PMT) occupations” –44% compared to 34% of all immigrants. But “managerial” and “technical” could include everything from managing a hamburger stand to skilled but low level production work in a factory or auto repair shop. Even if we credit the 44% with being an “exceptional elite” (a doubtful case but lets go with it for the sake of argument), that still leaves a majority of African immigrants- 56% who are in the NON “e-lite” categories above.

    And the alleged “massive flow” is less than advertised. Putative earth-shattering numbers of PMT “e-lites” – according to statistics from the US Immigration Service weight in at 24,095 for 2002, and 27,906 for 2004. This is rather small beer for an immigrant pool of 1.6 million people. Where are these putative hordes of “cognitive elites”?

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  128. Culturally, genetically, and historically, the Horn of Africa is closer to the Middle East than to sub-Saharan Africa.
    You’re creating a straw man of “African-ness” that nobody in this debate believes in

    This is a bit off. For one thing, the Horn of Africa IS in “sub-Saharan” Africa, making their populations “sub-Saharan” Africans. Just as Malta and Greece have African gene flow, but still remain European, so does the Horn, and it still remains African. And there are plenty f cultural and historical links in Ethiopia not only with Arabia but also with native peoples already in place within the country, the Oromo for example. Matter of fact one of the problems in studying Ethiopians is the continual skewing of sampling towards recently admixed groups (Amhara) while downplaying the native Oromo- a point noted in the literature.

    ———————————————————————————–

    Second, the data on the Horn is mixed, but the populations there are definitely African as shown by several credible mainstream scholars. For example, cranial studies put the Somalis closer to African populations than others (Hanihara 2003). As far as DNA, Comas 1999, Sanchez 2004, etc etc show Somalis clustering more with Africans than any Middle Easterners.
    On the key haplogroup E3b1 for example, a haplogroup originating in Africa with its greatest frequency in Africa, 77.6% of Somalis had it, with other Africans showing higher descending frequencies like Oromo (36%), Sudanese (18%), Kenyans (15%) and Middle easterners (6%) and Europeans (5%) bringing up the rear. (Sanchez 2004- High Frequencies of Y Chromo..) QUOTE:

    The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population- closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya..”
    –Sanchez

    ———————————————————————————–

    Third, the degree of “Middle Eastern: influence varies by era examined. The recent finding at Mota Cave, Ethiopia shows Middle Eastern elements are a relatively recent occurrence archaeologically. (Gallego-Llorente 2015). Other data show a clear preponderance of African genes in Ethiopians (Passrino 1998) and Cavalli-Sforza (1994). Per Cavalli-Sforza:

    “”The Ethiopians comprise different ethnic groups..and are classified as African, genetically speaking..”
    “Given their relationship for more than three thousand years, it is not surprising that the Africans and Ethiopians sit together on the genetic tree..”

    –Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Francesco Cavalli-Sforza, Sarah Thorne. (1995). The great human diasporas

    And the degree of relationship reflects in part the markers chosen for study. As far as Y-chromosomes for example, Ethiopians and Somalians are of clear African provenance. (Richards 2003, Sanchez 2004).

    ———————————————————————————–

    Fourth, sampling of Ethiopians often OVER-sample the Amahara who have more recent “Middle Eastern” admixture while downplaying the less admixed native Oromo. This is especially so when samples are drawn from Addis Ababa. Such problems are noted in the scientific literature by Semino (2002) and Pagani (2014).

    ———————————————————————————–

    Fifth, the claimed “racially intermediate” positions in some quarters, re Ethiopians- are related not because of any “race mix” per se but their location- in the Out of Africa migrations of anatomically modern humans out of Africa. (Tishkoff 2009)

    Sixth as you say southern European locations like Malta show African gene flow- this is true- so does Greece, Italy, Sardinia etc. Indeed, Europeans themselves are hybrids per conservative geneticists like Cavalli-Sforza: (Cavalli-Sforza 1997)

    ———————————————————————————–

    The Horn of Africa isn’t even sub-Saharan Africa. It’s a completely different cultural region, as different as the Middle East is from Europe. But even if we look only at sub-Saharan Africa, we see major cultural differences.

    Not quite. As already demonstrated, and as can be seen by any map of the Saharan line, the Horn of Africa IS in sub-Saharan Africa. And there are major cultural differences in every continent, and within countries as well- whether it be in Slavic lands or the Mediterranean as regards Europe. They are all still European. It is a distortion to say that because there are cultural differences in some African countries, that this disqualifies them from being African.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4OHHIoPYpFE/U5aF-9WME4I/AAAAAAAAA_I/gaKr4UIiLXg/s1600/northafricadefinition.jpg

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  129. What source says that 50% of Nigerian-American aduls have PhDs? And even if true this does not demonstrate any migration of “cognitive elites” or “exceptions.” How many of those were high school grads off the plane who earned their Phds AFTER living in the US with its greater opportunities? The immigrant who sold the 6 goats and fled with his family from the warzone to the refugee camp above was nothing special- just a medical assistant. His children attained their high educational status AFTER living on US soil for many years. They did not arrive as any sort of exceptional “elite.”

    Re Afro-Caribbeans, as I cited, Sowell 1981, Markets and Minorities shows that some of these immigrants, namely urban second generation children, surpassed the general white average in terms of BOTH income and education. There is a reason the natives called the Caribbean folk- JEW-MAICAN or said that “Only the Bajan can withstand the Jew.”

    And as for the Ethiopians, their overall national IQ scores if we go by those, are unimpressive, behind other West Africans, as Chisala shows above. This should not be the case if putative “white blood” was working its alleged magic.

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  130. Yeah, I think most people don’t really understand just how bad the African environment generally is. So, ironically, Lynn et al may be the ones shedding the most accurate light on the catastrophic emergency that is Africa.

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