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China Trade War: America's Policy Dilemma
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When China finally wins her independence then legitimate foreign trading interests will enjoy more opportunities than ever before. The power of production and consumption of 450,000,000 people is not a matter that can remain the exclusive interest of the Chinese, but one that must engage the many nations. Our millions of people, once really emancipated, with their great latent productive possibilities freed for creative activity in every field, can help improve the economy as well as raise the cultural level of the whole world. Mao Zedong[1]Red Star Over China, by Edgar Snow., July 13, 1936.

EMBARGO DILEMMA

Modern China has spent forty of its seventy years under American and Western embargoes, so the current round is nothing new. How likely is it to succeed?

In 1949 Mao inherited the poorest country on earth, devastated by a century of wars, occupation, disease, and famine. The US immediately broke all contacts, withdrew its diplomats, ordered its citizens home, forbade trade and financial exchanges and penalized infractions severely (the American editor of China Daily News, Gene Moy, was imprisoned in Danbury, CT, for accepting a thirty-five dollar payment from the Bank of China for a classified ad about remittances from overseas Chinese) and embargoed food, finance, technology, medical supplies and agricultural equipment and excluded China from the United Nations and all international bodies.

The result? Mao doubled the population, grew the economy twice as fast as postwar America’s while increasing per capita income 63%. For perspective, during Germany’s economic takeoff, 1880-1914, growth was 33% per decade, Japan’s from 1874-1929 was 43 percent, the Soviet Union’s between 1928-58 was 54 percent, China’s between 1952-72 was 64 percent. Save for limited Soviet aid in the 1950s (repaid in full and with interest by 1966) industrialization proceeded without foreign loans or investments and under punitive embargoes. Mao left China with powerful factories, nuclear weapons, satellites and an economy burdened neither by foreign debt nor internal inflation.

POLICY DILEMMA

WTO rules confront America with a policy dilemma. The per capita income disparity with China drained jobs to China but rising Chinese per capita income, which will slow the job drain, is raising China’s aggregate national wealth and threatening America’s economic world dominance. Here’s a freeze-frame:

NEGOTIATING DILEMMA

Negotiating skill is widely admired in China and one of its great practitioners, Xi Zhongxun–a civil war general at seventeen–would ride into the hills alone and emerge with entire rebel armies trotting happily behind him. Mao compared him to a famous negotiator in Dream of The Red Mansions and Xi coached his son, Jinping, until his death in 2002.

Jinping is now offering Donald Trump a tactical win in exchange for a strategic victory: China will reshuffle its trade preferences if America publicly recognizes China as a peer. Ray Dalio’s BFF, Vice Premier Liu He, spelled out Jinping’s terms:

  1. Lift all punitive, non-WTO tariffs, embargoes, and bans before the agreement is signed.
  2. All conditions in the agreement must apply equally to both parties.
  3. Xi’s original 2018 offer may be embellished but not substantively changed.
  4. China has twenty years to implement the terms of the agreement.

If he fails to reach agreement, Trump dims his reelection hopes but, if he agrees, he recognizes China as a peer and damages American credibility with allies and adversaries alike. Recall that US officials threatened allies that dealing with Huawei endangered their security ties. Governments that capitulated, like Canada’s, Australia’s and New Zealand’s – whose exports depend on China – will look like weaklings and fools. As Omar Bradley might have said, this may be the wrong trade war in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong enemy.

BITCHING AND MOANING

Though Trump charges that China infringes American IP rights, China’s payments of licensing fees and royalties for the use of foreign technology have reached $30 billion annually, nearly a four-fold increase over the last decade. Court filings show that China is a minor IP infringer and, domestically, China’s Progress on Intellectual Property Rights has been swift and substantial. Complaints about ‘forced’ contributions of IP to joint ventures are daft: companies sign them voluntarily to make profits and open new markets.

SUBSIDIES

The US Government spends $4.5 billion annually to subsidize a cotton crop so that it can be sold for $6 billion (it would otherwise be priced at $12 billion), allowing US growers to profitably export three quarters of their output and to control 40% of the world cotton trade. What the US loses in textile manufacturing it regains in subsidized cotton exports, high returns on investment from its overseas textile mills, and low-cost cotton goods for its consumers. The subsidy ruins the economies of the world’s poorest nations. All rich countries do this. There are dozens of such examples.

A SENSE OF PROPORTION

The simple truth today is that your [US] economy is built on the global economy. And it’s built on the support, the gratuitous support, of a lot of countries. So why don’t you come over and … I won’t say kowtow [with a laugh], but at least, be nice to the countries that lend you money. Talk to the Chinese! Talk to the Middle Easterners! And pull your troops back! Take the troops back, demobilize many of the troops, so that you can save some money rather than spending $2 billion every day on them. And then tell your people that you need to save, and come out with a long-term, sustainable financial policy. The current conditions can’t go on. It is time for the new government to really tell people: “Look, this is wartime, this is about the survival of our nation. It’s not about our supremacy in the world. Let’s not even talk about that anymore. Let’s get down to the very basics of our livelihood.” I have great admiration of American people. Creative, hard-working, trusting, and freedom-loving. But you have to have someone to tell you the truth. And then, start realizing it. And if you do it, just like what you did in the Second World War, then you’ll be great again! If that happens, then of course—American power would still be there for at least as long as I am living. But many people are betting on the other side.Gao Xiqing, President, China Investment Corporation.

Neither China nor the US is overly trade-dependent. Trade accounts for 26% of America’s GDP and 37% of China’s–compared to 56% of Canada’s and 86% of Europe’s. Chinese imports are 18.7% of GDP and US imports are 14.6% of GDP.

Over the past ten years China has steadily reduced her overall reliance on trade, particularly with the USA. China’s net exports–exports minus imports–are two percent of GDP. Since 2007 China’s global current-account surplus has fallen from 10% of GDP to 1.4% but America’s deficit has remained unchanged.

The average Chinese tariff on US-made products is 20.7%, compared to 6.7% on competing products from WTO-compliant countries (151 countries have filed WTO complaints against the US, 85 have filed against the EU, 43 have filed against China). Exports to the US fell 4.8% in 1H 2019 while exports to the EU rose 14.2%.

China is America’s biggest trading partner while America is China’s third biggest trading partner after the EU and ASEAN. ASEAN replaced the US as China’s second-largest export market last year and the signing of the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership[2]A free trade agreement between Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Japan, South Korea, India, Australia and New Zealand. According to PwC, the RCEP’s GDP, PPP, will be $250 trillion by 2050, half of global GDP. later this year will boost area trade significantly.

Though it is due to come into force next year, China has already granted all the benefits of the EU-China Bilateral Investment Agreement to European investors without requiring reciprocity. Belt and Road trade is rising 17.2% annually, trans-Eurasian trains now depart hourly and fiber-optic cables and pipelines are rapidly uniting Mackinder’s World Island, the Eurasian landmass.

China is lowering tariffs and opening domestic markets to attract multinationals and foreign products in order to force domestic companies to innovate, which is why it is now the largest recipient of foreign direct investment, FDI, in the world.

In Bloomberg’s worst-case embargo scenario, China’s US trade would fall by $126 billion, 0.8% of GDP, and US trade would fall by 0.5% OF GDP, leaving the global pecking order unchanged. However, since Xi warned his country in 2016 to prepare for this possibility–and since the Chinese always heed their leaders’ words–the impact on China may be less severe than Bloomberg anticipates.

STRAWS IN THE WIND

  • Huawei’s YOY handset shipments rose 50% in H1 2019 while Apple’s fell 30%.
  • Huawei has 65% of the world’s 5G equipment contracts. All four of the UK’s wireless providers (EE, O2, Three, Vodafone), for example, are installing Huawei 5G networks. Monaco’s is fully operational.
  • China Mobile, with one billion customers, awarded 34% of its 5G equipment contract to Ericsson and Nokia and 5% to state-owned ZTE.
  • There are thousands of US Corporations in China and two-thirds of the largest exporters in China are foreign-owned.
  • Boeing sells more airplanes to China than anywhere else and Walmart produces more goods from China than any other company in the world.
  • US companies in China sell $600 billion annually into China’s domestic market–$100 billion more than China exports to the US–and generate net profits of $50+ billion annually.
  • Tesla, Boeing, BMW of America, Exxon Mobil and Wal-Mart have announced new investments and factories in China since the trade war began and Japanese, South Korean, and European companies are expanding their footprints there because Chinese sales are growing six percent annually.
  • Of the factories operated by Apple’s top suppliers, 357 are in China and 63 are in America. Apple is shifting Mac Pro manufacturing from the US to China.
  • By shortening its negative list for foreign investment from 63 items to 48 last month, China widened access to its primary, secondary and tertiary sectors and detailed 22 opening-up measures in finance, transportation, professional services, infrastructure, energy, resources and agriculture.
  • China’s domestic consumer market, at $7 trillion, passed the US’s $6.94 trillion last year.
  • Chinese cross-border e-commerce consumers spent $100 billion on goods from abroad in 2017 and $128 billion in 2018.

FUN FACTS

  • The US Air Force has awarded China’s DJI a contract for security UAVs.
  • The Holy See has urged Chinese priests to register with Beijing and it is distinctly possible that the next Pope will be a Chinese Communist. I kid you not.

THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS

Twenty years ago Samuel Huntington[3]Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order, Samuel Huntington observed, “Civilizations grow because they have an instrument of expansion, a military, religious, political, or economic organization that accumulates surplus and invests it in productive innovations and they decline when they stop the application of surplus to new ways of doing things. In modern terms we say that the rate of investment decreases. This happens because the social groups controlling the surplus have a vested interest in using it for non-productive but ego-satisfying purposes which distribute the surpluses to consumption but do not provide more effective methods of production.”

As the chart below makes clear, the social groups controlling America’s surplus used it for non-productive, ego-satisfying purposes and distributed the surpluses to consumption but did not provide more effective methods of production:

We’ve cut R&D investment, shuttered our great corporate labs and fallen from first to thirty-first in world education rankings since 1974, while China has done the opposite. In Crazy Rich Asians a father urges his kids to finish their dinner, “Think of all the starving children in America”. By 2021 every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health and old age care and there will be more suicides and more homeless, poor, hungry children and imprisoned people in America than in China. In absolute numbers. Think of the impact on our ‘allies.’

TIMELINE

August, 2012, Huawei’s CEO, “It is out of strategic concern that we have decided to develop our own device OS. If they forbid us from using Android and Windows Phone 8 one day, will we be caught empty-handed and have nothing to do? When they refuse to sell things to us, our products can also be used as backups even though the quality is not as good as theirs.”

August, 2015: US blocks Intel’s Xeon and Xeon Phi export license fearing their use in Chinese supercomputers.

March 2016. China unveils the world’s fastest supercomputer, built entirely with domestic chips and IP.

April, 2016: President Xi: “Core technology controlled by others is our greatest hidden danger.”

September, 2017: Huawei unveils its Kirin 970 chipset with built-in AI, dedicated neural processing, 5.5 billion transistors/sq. cm., 25x performance and 50x efficiency of ARM’s quad-core Cortex-A73 CPU cluster, drastically reducing cost, power consumption, weight and tower size.

December, 2017: China publishes 641 AI patents compared to America’s 13o, according to the US National Science Foundation, (NSF).

January 3, 2018 “There are only two truly vertically integrated mobile OEMs who have full control over their silicon: Apple and Huawei. Huawei is more integrated due to in-house modem development. Huawei has been the one company to be competitive with current leader, Qualcomm”.

January 18, 2018. China becomes the world’s largest producer of scientific research papers, 20% of total global output. (NSF)

February 14, 2018: US Congress labels Huawei “an arm of the Chinese government,” bans it from bidding on US government contracts.

March 5, 2018: China’s IC industry grows 21% annually, from $13.6 billion in 2013 to $30 billion.

March 11, 2018. Huawei owns 23% of 5G technology IP, more than any company.

March 22, 2018. China’s IP office received the most patent applications in 2017, a record total of 1.38 million, followed by the USPTO (607,000), Japan (318,000), South Korea (205,000), and the European Patent Office (167,000).

Mar 27, 2018: Trump, Treasury block China investment in US tech firms, stocks, preventing Chinese investment in emerging technologies.

April 16, 2018: US prohibits transactions with ZTE Corporation for seven years on the grounds that ZTE violated its 2017 Iran settlement agreement.

April 26, 2018: Qualcomm begins layoffs.

April 26, 2018: Huawei Criminally Investigated For Iran sales.

May 1, 2018: Chinese partners take over ARM’s operations in China and a permanent license to use ARM’s IP. ARM’s chip blueprint is used in ninety percent of mobile devices and Apple, Samsung, Huawei, Qualcomm, Broadcom and MediaTek license its technology to develop chipsets for smartphone, tablets, wearables and connected devices.

July 8, 2018. Average senior managerial tech salaries reach $216,000 in China, competitive with Silicon Valley.

July 12, 2018. More than three hundred senior Taiwanese engineers move to mainland chip makers, joining a thousand who have already relocated for 4x higher salaries.

July 9, 2018 Chinese chipmaker Hygon manufactures Zen-based x86 CPUs under a $293 million licensing agreement with AMD.

September 3, 2018: Huawei unveils Kirin 980 CPU, the world’s first commercial 7nm system-on-chip (SoC), with 40 percent lower power consumption than 10nm systems, 20% more bandwidth and 22% lower latency than Qualcomm’s Snapdragon 845. Its L5 frequency GPS receiver delivers 10cm. positioning.

September 5, 2018. China’s front-end fabs accounted for 16 percent of the world’s semiconductor capacity and will capture 20 percent by 2020.

September 21, 2018. China has twelve of the world’s top fifty IC design houses and 21% of global IC design revenues.

October 2, 2018. Chinese research makes up 18.6% of global STEM peer-reviewed papers, ahead of America’s 18%.

October 14, 2018. Huawei ships 7 nm Ascend 910 chipset for data centers, twice as powerful as Nvidia’s v100 and the first AI IP chip series to natively provide optimal TeraOPS per watt in all scenarios.

October 8, 2018: Taiwan’s Foxconn moves its major semiconductor maker and five IC design companies to Jinan, China.

October 22, 2018. China becomes the world leader in venture capital, ahead of the US and almost twice the rest of the world’s $53.4 billion. Crunchbase claims the world’s entrepreneurial ecosystem is driven by China.

Oct 25 2018. Nokia confirms ‘thousands’ of job losses over the next two years after third-quarter profits drop.

Oct. 31, 2018. Chinese airline reservations to the US dropped 42 percent for the first week of October and 102,000 fewer Chinese received business, leisure and educational visas from May through September, a 13 percent drop YOY.

November 2, 2018. “The most valuable speech recognition companies, machine translation companies, drone companies, computer vision companies and facial recognition companies are all Chinese.”– Kaifu Lee.

November 3, 2018. Huawei announces it will ship 5G handsets in 2019. Apple announces it will not.

November 17, 2018. Kai-Fu Lee says his investment firm may scale back in the U.S. and try to lure US talent to China instead of investing in America.

Dec 6, 2018. Canada’s Ministry of Justice announces arrest of Huawei’s CFO Meng adding, “She is sought for extradition by the United States.”

December 7, 2018. 5G requires more base stations than existing networks. China has ten times more than the US: 5.3 sites per ten square miles vs. 0.4 in the US.

December 10, 2018. Governments and secret services in the non-Western world begin equipping themselves exclusively with Huawei to protect the confidentiality of their communications.

December 21, 2018. Foxconn plans $9bn China chip project amid trade war.

December 22, 2018. China’s Fourth Paradigm sells a second-generation AI product–a suite of AI software tools with a customised chip to process its algorithms. It allows the world’s biggest banks to run complex fraud detection algorithms and other analyses without trained AI engineers.

December 24, 2018. Chinese imports posted a 14.6% rise for the first eleven months of 2018 to exceed US$2 trillion, a record high, making China the most powerful trading nation both by volume and dollar value.

January 1, 2019. In 2018 China, Apple’s third biggest market, accounted for sales of $52 billion. Qualcomm’s $15 billion represent 65 percent of its total sales. Intel’s are 24 percent, Micron Technology’s are 51 percent, and Texas Instruments are 44 percent.

January 7, 2019. Huawei Unveils the highest-performing ARM-based 7nm CPU, the Kunpeng 920, that boosts the development of computing in big data, distributed storage, and ARM-native application scenarios by 20%.

February 21, 2019. Huawei gear tests out as 30% more energy efficient than competitors’ and cuts connectivity cost-per-bit for by 80-90% compared to 4G. Its 5G base station is 40% of the size and weight of competing models and can be installed by two people in hours.

THE PAST AS PRELUDE

Midway in the sixteenth century China became the great repository of the early modern world’s newly discovered wealth in silver. Long a participant in international maritime trade, China experienced the consequences of the greatly enlarged patterns in world trade. In that commerce China was essentially a seller of high-quality craft manufactures. Other countries could not compete either in quality or price. The colonies of the New World and the entire Mediterranean sphere of trade, from Portugal and Spain to the Ottoman Empire, began to complain that the influx of Chinese goods undermined their economies. F.W. Mote, Imperial China 900-1800.

Notes

[1] Red Star Over China, by Edgar Snow.

[2] A free trade agreement between Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Japan, South Korea, India, Australia and New Zealand. According to PwC, the RCEP’s GDP, PPP, will be $250 trillion by 2050, half of global GDP.

[3] Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order, Samuel Huntington

 
• Category: Economics, Foreign Policy • Tags: China, China/America, Free Trade 
The China/America Series
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  1. SteveK9 says:

    I agree with most of this. As a Scientist I can tell you the impact of Chinese Scientist on Research cannot be overstated. AND that includes the US. If you go to a conference there will be many papers with an older Chinese Scientist at some US institution, followed by 7 names … all Chinese.

    One point I would make, is that the transfer of knowledge earlier was ‘unfair’ in one sense. Yes, those technology transfer agreements were made willingly … by American CEO”s. They were looking at their own short-term interests, not those of their country. So, China took advantage of the US ‘system’. It was frustrating though to watch our own country, Scientists and Workers alike betrayed over and over again by greedy plutocrats, handing over the work of decades if not centuries, so they could have a nice bonus that year.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @MEFOBILLS
  2. Laowai234 says:

    “Negotiating skill is widely admired in China”

    That’s a rather gentle way of putting it. China is a low trust society, and one of the reasons why it has been so easy for them to rip off American and European companies is that people from America and Europe are more inclined to trust their business partners. So a foreign company partners with a Chinese company. The Chinese roll out the red carpets for their new partners, and slowly extract from them all the necessary information to do the project themselves. Then, once the foreigners have been unknowingly bled dry of information, the joint venture is shelved. The foreigners are perplexed that their once kind and deferential hosts are now so cold. The Chinese marvel at the gullibility of the yangguizi (foreign devils).

    Anyone who doesn’t come from a bargaining culture is at a severe disadvantage in dealing with the Chinese, or with anyone else who does come from a bargaining culture. So Middle Easterners and Eastern Europeans do OK in dealing with the Chinese, but northern Europeans are fools who actually care about keeping their word.

    Here’s what enforcement of IP rights looks like on the ground: Chinese cities are filled with small shops selling pirate DVDs and music CDs. Periodically, these stores are “raided” and are closed down for about a week. If you visit the store during that week, you will see only a small selection of legitimate merchandise. On paper, the police have closed down an illegal store. But the next week, it will be open again, with all the same pirate merchandise. The store owner has guanxi (connection) with the police and gets a tip as to when these raids will happen. Everyone is happy because the police get their enforcement statistic, and the pirates are minimally inconvenienced.

    In the case of counterfeit shoes and clothes, I’ve never even known such a raid to occur. I can believe that changes are happening and progress is being made, but don’t underestimate the size of the problem. Until about 2014 or 2015, all music from major Western companies was available for free download from Baidu music. That’s China’s official search engine, not a pirate site. That’s the equivalent of being freely available direct from Google in the West.

    I don’t fault the Chinese for any of this. For one thing, ripping off “American” corporations is fine by me since they’re not really American and they rip off the American people to begin with. For another, China simply plays to win. They can’t be expected to follow Western protocols and abide by Western values in the way they do things. Being a low trust culture gives them an advantage in dealing with America, since America has shown, time and again in recent years, that it doesn’t honor its agreements and is not to be trusted. (Libya, Iraq, Iran)

    But nonetheless, if Trump is serious about fighting for the interests of the American people, he has to deal with the Chinese as they are, not as we might like them to be.

  3. Great Article. But is doesn’t address the vast disparity in military capability between the US and China. I agree that US will not be able to dominate China economically. The question is whether or not the US and her allies will dominate China militarily instead even as they continue their destabilization efforts in Hong Kong and Xinjiang. Also, China is not exactly trusted by her neighbors including Japan and South Korea. This allows the US and her allies an excellent opportunity to sow discord through their far superior propaganda machine. It is still unclear if this will end end up in co-existence or war. Certainly Trump doesn’t want war but the neo-cons and other hawks definitely do want war.

  4. @Laowai234

    This may have been true 20 years ago but as the Chinese have become wealthy, they have become just as stupidly brand conscious as their western counterparts. They no longer want fake Rolex watches. They want the real thing.

    I am also getting really tired with the tropes about China copying and stealing IP. The first thing any American corporation does is buys its competitors products, dis-assembles them to see how they work. Then these same corporations attempt to hire away their competitors Engineers. This should be clear to anyone who reads the financial news about the myriad of IP lawsuits between US tech giants like Apple and Qualcomm.

    • Replies: @Laowai234
  5. Rosie says:
    @SteveK9

    So, China took advantage of the US ‘system’. It was frustrating though to watch our own country, Scientists and Workers alike betrayed over and over again by greedy plutocrats, handing over the work of decades if not centuries, so they could have a nice bonus that year.

    Let the record reflect that White men did this, not White women. We’re supposed to have all sorts of deficiencies that make us unfit citizens. We make decisions based on feelings, we prefer foreign men, etc…

    The truth is that male greed is at the root of our problems, and it’s certainly not all or even most men. It’s a small minority of greedy plutocrats who have destroyed our nation for cheap labor and access to Third World markets. Of course, these plutocrats know that feminism has more than run its course. There is no more resentment to stoke, because women’s grievances have long since been resolved.

    Now, they’re trying to use male resentment to distract and divide, and it’s working. As I mentioned in another thread, there is no “circular firing squad” on the left, but there is on the right. Any given day, right-wingers attack each other based on gender, generation, religion, sexual orientation, etc. It’s really kind of painful to watch.

  6. @Rosie

    Quite Right. Women business leaders such as Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos have been the paragons of virtue.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  7. Rosie says:
    @Cognitive Dissonance

    This is an interesting argument: IKABO (I know a bad one!)

    Nonetheless, the statistics are not flattering for you all, I’m afraid:

    https://psmag.com/economics/dont-women-commit-corporate-fraud-gender-business-91071

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  8. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    These sorts of statistics and arguments are irrelevant, because ultimately having a non-trivial representation of women in business or any other sphere of public responsibility will mean long-term decline and either the country fading away into obscurity or being conquered by male dominated societies.

    So it doesn’t matter how great women are. No matter how great they are, any society dominated by them will decline and be irrelevant or conquered by male dominated societies.

    • LOL: Rosie
  9. TG says:

    I only got a little bit into this post before I realized that it was fundamentally dishonest.

    “Mao doubled the population…” Yes, BUT THAT WAS NOT A GOOD THING.

    When the communists initially took over China, they deliberately ignited a population explosion: “strength through numbers” was the mantra. They purged honest economists like Ma Yinchu (one of my heroes). It was a disaster. The poverty resulting from this forced population growth created enormous instability and nearly tore the country apart – and the one-family one-child policy was an act of desperation to try and limit the damage of the previous.’let’s all breed like rodents’ policy.

    Funny how, it was only AFTER the rate of population increase in China moderated, that the Chinese started to make progress. But that’s how it always goes.

    Meanwhile in India, where the government policy remains firmly ‘more is better,’ the physical standard of living is inferior to medieval Europe. As one Chinese economist stated, “We decided to eat, and the Indians decided to have a lot of children.”

    Amateurs talk political systems, professionals talk demographics.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  10. @Laowai234

    The West’s lavish, $1.5 billion pa, China disinformation campaign has created, nurtured and exaggerated many misconceptions about China. The notion that China is a low trust society is just one of them.

    In reality, the contrary is the case: Chinese trust of their government, for example, rivals Switzerland’s and Sweden’s. This should not surprise us, given that all three governments consistently deliver concrete benefits to their citizens.

    But what about interpersonal trust? Again, as we might expect of a people who have lived in the same place and intermarried for at least 5,300 years, trust is among the highest in the world.https://i.imgur.com/Q7lSFGK.jpg

    Granted, trust took a beating during our wars of occupation and destruction and has taken time to recover to the levels found in the accounts of European visitors during the 16th. century when, “European travelers marveled at the mannerliness, good humor and social graces of the common people.” Imperial China 900-1800. F.W. Mote.

    But trust is back big time and the Social Credit program, planned for rollout in 2021, can only help.

    • Replies: @Laowai234
    , @Brett
  11. @Cognitive Dissonance

    As to America’s military chances, I suggest reading this article: http://www.unz.com/article/when-china-leads-the-world/#comment-3268495. No US ship or plane can come within 1,000 miles of a Chinese border and hope to survive.

    American military bases, built so conveniently close to China, are simply hostages. IF the US were to attack, say, a Chinese vessel on the high seas, China could simply destroy a convenient base secure in the knowledge that the US cannot attack the Chinese mainland without losing its major cities within an hour. It is a genuinely asymmetrical situation.

    Both Japan and S. Korea are occupied satellites whose puppet governments obscure the fact that 80% of their people loathe the US and are perfectly OK with China. I’ve lived in both countries and my confidence is boosted by the fact that 80% of South Koreans trust President Kim Jong Un. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-02/nearly-80-percent-of-south-koreans-say-they-trust-kim-jong-un

    • Replies: @animalogic
  12. Lo says:

    Mao doubled the population

    This is neither success nor better than the rest of the developing world.

    grew the economy twice as fast as postwar America’s while increasing per capita income 63%

    Developing economies grow faster due to the availability of unused resources while developed economies grow slower due to the law of diminishing returns.

    For perspective, during Germany’s economic takeoff, 1880-1914, growth was 33% per decade, Japan’s from 1874-1929 was 43 percent, the Soviet Union’s between 1928-58 was 54 percent, China’s between 1952-72 was 64 percent.

    Germany was already a developed country in 1880, Japan was much richer than China in 1874 than China in 1949 (relative to historical counterparts), same for the USSR. China’s starting point was very low, bottom to be precise, there is nothing special about Mao’s numbers. By the time he died, the Chinese were still dirt poor.

    Mao left China with powerful factories, nuclear weapons, satellites and an economy burdened neither by foreign debt nor internal inflation.

    As soon as he died, people closest to him were arrested or executed.

    Here’s a freeze-frame

    You are comparing apples to oranges, essentially you are comparing Tier 1 cities of China vs. the whole US. A better comparison would be comparing these cities to NYC, SF, Seattle…

    4. China has twenty years to implement the terms of the agreement.

    If this is a term they demand, then there will be no deal or the US negotiators are huge idiots. China implements unimportant terms in first few years slowly, never implements the rest unless those terms bring them advantages over others in the trade. If the Chinese ask for extra time, never allow it. If they want something now, ask for extra time. Never make a deal with Chinese on their terms. We are dealing with a country so culturally adjusted to cheating that not cheating is considered equal to being stupid. However, I do agree that the US foreign policy appears very inept & government officials don’t seem competent in anything other than protecting Israel.

    Though Trump charges that China infringes American IP rights, China’s payments of licensing fees and royalties for the use of foreign technology have reached $30 billion annually, nearly a four-fold increase over the last decade

    Their economy didn’t grow four-fold in the last decade, which means they have been infringing all along. $30 billion is nothing compared to the overall size of the Chinese economy.*

    Court filings show that China is a minor IP infringer

    Because the court process is intentionally slow and leading to nowhere, foreign firms don’t even bother.

    Complaints about ‘forced’ contributions of IP to joint ventures are daft: companies sign them voluntarily to make profits and open new markets.

    This is true and shows just how stupid the American business elites actually are. In some ways, they got what they deserved. Jobs and wealth they transferred to places like China, India etc. at the expense of their compatriots for a few more pennies on dollars are returning them in the form of crashing airplanes, lost business opportunities, increasingly hostile domestic population and competition they cannot beat.

    The subsidy ruins the economies of the world’s poorest nations. All rich countries do this.

    True. The US should either stop these subsidies or shouldn’t complain about Chinese subsidies. The net effect is further impoverishing poor countries, which in return causes further population growth & unregulated migration.

    Gao Xiqing, President, China Investment Corporation.

    I agree with this guy. However, he doesn’t seem to understand the current world economic order would not work if people were sane. Telling modern Americans to converse is largely a wasted effort. They are conditioned to consume as much as possible so that elites can profit at the expense of everyone’s else’s time/life. That said, rich Chinese are no different, to be fair, worse actually. Perhaps Xiqing should give the same advice to CCP elites. Don’t put millions in London, Melbourne, Vancouver etc. real estate markets, save your money and invest in rural China and so on.

    The Holy See has urged Chinese priests to register with Beijing and it is distinctly possible that the next Pope will be a Chinese Communist. I kid you not.

    I fully believe it. Though, I don’t think that allowing a Chinese to become the next Pope would be in China’s interests. Who wants their people to convert to a cult of buggers.

    As the chart below makes clear, the social groups controlling America’s surplus used it for non-productive, ego-satisfying purposes and distributed the surpluses to consumption but did not provide more effective methods of production

    The chart is wrong. However, wasting the surplus is true. I wish it was distributed for consumption, instead, it is directly funneled to top %0.1 where it reinvested in financial instruments and real estate to extract even more from the rest of the peasants who are already busy working 2-3 jobs to survive.

    *I don’t believe science/tech IPs should exist. Only IP should be TM and Copyright protections.

  13. Jason Liu says:
    @Cognitive Dissonance

    The most important thing China can do to secure its future is to befriend its neighbors, creating an alliance based on security, economics, and ideology. Despite what it seems, our Asian neighbors are nowhere as dedicated to liberal democracy as it looks on paper.

    But making friends is one of the things China sucks at. Because it requires some humility and compromise, treating smaller countries like equals, not overreacting to disagreements, and establishing relations that go beyond just money/trade. Neither the government or the Chinese people want to accommodate smaller countries around us, because it’s seen as weakness or “cucking”. So they run to the US and help America contain us.

  14. Jason Liu says:

    I could say that China’s IP theft and mercantilism is immoral and therefore open to negotiation, but that ignores what America is.

    The United States has become a monster that tries to force its globohomo values on the entire world. So any method that can slay the monster is justified, even if it’s dirty and unfair like mercantilism. Nothing against Americans as a people. If America was a more nationalistic society that minded its own business, then there would be more room for friendly concessions.

    • Replies: @Laowai234
    , @TomSchmidt
  15. @TG

    I should have been more explicit: China experienced the same postwar baby boom as every other country. Mao did not actually father more than three of the additional 350,000,000 new babies and, given the technology available at the time, could not have limited the births had he wished.

    My point in mentioning the stat was that Mao successfully fed all the new mouths while doubling per capita income every decade of his administration. Quite a feat for any leader, anywhere, anytime.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    , @Patricus
  16. kauchai says:
    @Lo

    1) This is true and shows just how stupid the American business elites actually are. In some ways, they got what they deserved. Jobs and wealth they transferred to places like China, India etc. at the expense of their compatriots for a few more pennies on dollars are returning them in the form of crashing airplanes, lost business opportunities, increasingly hostile domestic population and competition they cannot beat.

    Welcome to Capitalism. Just because the odds are stacked against you, you start to bitch. Grow some balls.

    2) We are dealing with a country so culturally adjusted to cheating that not cheating is considered equal to being stupid.

    ” We lied, we cheated and we stole. It’s – it was like – we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment “- Mike Pompeo

    LOL!

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  17. Laowai234 says:
    @Cognitive Dissonance

    I would say that “the Chinese have become wealthy” is a far more inaccurate trope. Sure, they have had tremendous economic growth, including improving the quality of life for the vast majority of the population. (A major achievement, to be sure.) And yes, there is now a significant portion of wealthy Chinese who do in fact want real luxury items. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t still hundreds of millions of poor people who cannot afford real luxury items or even real average items like Nike sneakers or Polo shirts and who do in fact buy counterfeits.

    “America does it too” is not the same as “China doesn’t do it.” That’t the tu quoque fallacy. Of course “American” corporations are full of greedy, immoral psychopaths who do all sorts of bad things. It doesn’t make the Chinese saints.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  18. Laowai234 says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    The stats on government trust are believable. My impression is that the vast majority of Chinese are happy with their government and approve of it, for the simple reason that China as a whole has been improving for decades.

    Interpersonal trust, no. I don’t see it. You may be right about the Social Credit program helping this. I hope so. If interpersonal trust in China surpasses interpersonal trust in Western countries, it will be because China remains largely monoethnic (yes I know they have lots of ethnic groups but it’s a Han-centric culture without a doubt) while the West succumbs to the wonders of diversity.

  19. Laowai234 says:
    @Jason Liu

    China vs. globohomo may end up being one of the defining battles of the 21st century. They have taken significant steps to prevent it (banning porn, banning homosexuality in media) but it is making inroads into their society nonetheless, not least of all via South Korea, which culturally serves as a proxy for degenerate Western values. It’s also the case that wealth brings decadence, and so they are also dealing with rising divorce rates. To the degree that they promote the family as the core of their society, they will succeed. Abandon that (as the West has) and they will fail.

  20. @Godfree Roberts

    The Chinese are making a huge leap forward in military matters. Their jets are reaching 4+++ or 5th G. Their ship building is so massive it may have no historical equal (Roman’s, 1st Punic war?) China is a serious contender.

  21. Brett says:
    @Rosie

    Let the record reflect that White men did this, not White women.

    Any given day, right-wingers attack each other based on gender, generation, religion, sexual orientation, etc. It’s really kind of painful to watch.

    You’re contributing to the circular firing squad then complaining about it. It isn’t even a meaningful criticism, since there wasn’t a sizable female CEO base to compare it to. It’d be like saying, let the record show that white men did this, not toddlers. We don’t actually know what female CEOs would have done in similar conditions.

    BTW, there definitely is a circular firing squad on the left: Pelosi vs AOC. Linda Sarsour’s criticisms. Biden’s criticisms. They all galvanize when fighting the right. But in-fighting is probably worse amongst them when left to their own devices.

  22. Yee says:

    Jason Liu,

    “But making friends is one of the things China sucks at. ”

    Are you a child? Do you understand what “world hegemony” means? It means only a few nations in the world can decide their own foreign policies. It means the US is capable of regime change most nation if it don’t like their policies. More importantly, the leaders of those nations know it full well.

    Anyways, China has 20 neighbors, please name more than 10 nations that’s unfriendly to China to prove your point.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @denk
    , @Anonymous
  23. @Jason Liu

    Interesting point. Instead of trying to take over the whole South China Sea, China could easily split the wealth from it, flipping all the surrounding countries from US friendly to US hostile.

    They’ll have to get to this point eventually. Even China couldn’t take on all the nearby countries and the US and thrive. As you point out, they don’t have to.

  24. @Godfree Roberts

    Successfully fed?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

    All that notwithstanding, I’ve become more convinced that China would NEVER have been in the position it is now if not for Mao. All its wealth could be going to prop up the Western Imperialist rentiér class, and they have not forgiven it for slipping the noose.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  25. Brett says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Does the interpersonal trust extend to foreigners or is it just between the Chinese themselves?

  26. @Jason Liu

    There were a few people, like Henry Morgenthau, who literally wanted to exterminate the Germans, but most rational people saw that the problem was Nazi rule and German military invading other countries. Despite a number of atrocities by Western and Soviet allies, destroying the Nazi State was a benefit even to average Germans.

    If you’d kindly use “The United States’ government has become a monster,” I’d agree with you 100%.

  27. @kauchai

    Capitalism, like science, is a learning mechanism. American Corporate Executives are enthralled by Milton Friedman’s “rational” idea that the only purpose of a corporation is to turn a profit, however defined. So it makes sense to abandon innovation in an uncertain future and increase profits now.

    The fact of the matter is, when you make something, you make two things: the item itself, and the knowledge to make that item. Exporting production to China means giving away the ability to accumulate knowledge for a few bucks saved; Under Ricardian comparative advantage, it’s the right thing to do. Of course, given how large the intangible IP of companies like, e.g. Google is, this was a short term profitable strategy and a long term wealth-destroying one.

    I recall a quip from the 80s about balance of trade: it doesn’t matter if we export computer chips or potato chips, from a balance of trade standpoint. That’s been our mentality for a long time, and the chickens are coming home to roost.

    • Agree: Parfois1
  28. Wow. Thanks for this article and assembling these items in one place. The future if run by China: high-speed rail connects thriving cities across the Eurasian continent. The future if run by the USA: do what we say, or we will bomb, sanction, and arrest you into submission.

    In 1860, the British burned the Summer Palace because it was the only way they could see to punish the (foreign-origin) Manchu Dynasty without that Dynasty offloading the punishment into the Chinese people. Cultural desecration, but one understands their logic.

    To return the favor, China would need to burn or destroy someplace exclusive for the elites of the US Government, while not specifically harming the people. Davos, maybe? The Hamptons? Harvard, or, better yet, since its graduates ruled from 1989 to 2009, Yale?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  29. Yee says:

    TomSchmidt,

    “Instead of trying to take over the whole South China Sea, China could easily split the wealth from it, flipping all the surrounding countries from US friendly to US hostile.”

    First of all, South China Sea was claimed by the predecessor KMT govt after WW2 in 1946, China just inherit it. As I understand it, KMT’s claim was legit. ROC is still occupying the largest island in South China Sea.

    And, China haven’t managed to take over the whole South China Sea. Vietnam, Philippines and Malaysia occupy more islets than China. Here’s the current situation.

    PRC(Mainland China): 7
    ROC(Taiwan): 1
    Vietnam:28
    Philippines:9
    Malaysia:9
    Indonesia:2
    Brunei :1

    Anyway, South China Sea isn’t about wealth, it’s about sea route. 90% of the shipment passing through are Chinese. If China doesn’t control it, the US will. The US has already controlled the rest of the water ways in the world, why let them block our front door too?

  30. “Modern China has spent forty of its seventy years under American and Western embargoes, so the current round is nothing new. How likely is it to succeed?”

    Of course they are feeling it.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sheds-millionaires-as-slowdown-shaves-fortunes-11562644802

  31. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jason Liu

    Well said.

  32. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yee

    China doesn’t really have many neighbors that are unfriendly save for India, but neither do they have any friends either which I believe is the point that Jason Liu is making.

    Real friends have ties beyond mere base interest and economic gain. That way when conditions become unfavorable, these “so called friends” can’t be turned against you.

    I would say America in the 90’s had genuine friends all over the world. There were many countries that helped America out of genuine friendship.

    Now, neither America nor China has any friends. It is just other countries using each other. China may be fine with that now, but at some point it will pay the price of that is all it sees itself as.

  33. @Jason Liu

    You over estimate the value of “friends”. Nukes made his entire comment stupid drivel. This is no longer 1850s qin China where it was open season because China could not protect it self. Even conventional capabilities are getting closer to equal soon.

    Take USA as an example, where do you see USA treating it’s supposed “allies” as equals? Money + military might is all you need. China will soon have both.

    IMO, i agree with you about treating others as equals, but I doubt it’s usefulness when it comes to foreign affairs.

    It has always been might = fucking right. All the dressing up doesn’t change this fact.

  34. Reading about the PRC these days can be a frustrating experience for somebody whose ears are finely attuned to discerning truth from what in our frontier days were referred to as “tall tales”. It goes without saying that Western media (and not just in the English language) presents a highly skewed perspective of Mainland China that only serves to buttress the neoliberal/neoconservative interests of the Anglo-American oligarchy. Consider reportage on the recent protests in Hong Kong, for example, or the Xinjiang situation. The problem is that Mainland Chinese and their international allies also present a highly skewed perspective of the PRC, naturally one that presents the country in the most flattering manner, highly cosmeticizing its various flaws.

    For example, while Mao’s prediction quoted at the head of this article would ultimately prove him to be correct, it also must be admitted that this result occurred largely in spite of him and his policies. Had the immediate postwar PRC instead been stewarded by sober bureaucrats like Meiji Japan had in Matsukata Masayoshi or Katō Tadaaki, then the PRC may very well have achieved its economic/military potential far sooner, in all likelihood surpassing the US well before the end of the 20th century. That this did not occur can only be blamed on the ineptitude and paranoid megalomania of Mao. That the author glosses over this irrefutable historical fact ought to immediately indicate to a careful reader that this essay’s truths and insights, valuable though they are, lay in a minefield of half-truths.

    It must be admitted here that I do not share Mr. Roberts’ sanguine outlook on the PRC’s future—much though I wish that he would be proven right. It is my belief that a world dominated by the Chinese or one where they at least oversee it as an equal partner would be an enormous boon for the world, economically and culturally. The problem is that the PRC must contend with sundry profound challenges which have no easy solutions, all of them which conspire against achieving its sought after Pax Sinica global hegemony.

    For one thing, it does not enjoy unfettered control of its corner of the world in the sense that the US does in the Americas. Canada, its only formidable neighbor, has historically been utterly subservient to the American Empire and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future. All other countries in the Western Hemisphere cannot even begin to approach American economic and military strength, much less threaten it. A few outlier countries may prove to be occasional annoyances, but generally they all fall in line behind the single regional hegemon. Mainland China, on the other hand, sits nestled in a veritable viper’s nest of national rivalries and historical grievances. While none of its immediate neighbors save for Russia can approach it militarily, most wield enough economic heft to be more of a nuisance than, say, Nicaragua or Cuba ever could pose to the US. Consider the situation in the East China Sea. While understandable and perhaps even reasonable from a Chinese defense perspective, their brusque handling of their neighbors’ claims may prove to be a bad decision in the long run. Instead of working out an equitable compromise with them, some of which are among today’s fastest growing economies (both Vietnam and the Philippines are projected to be among the top 10 or 15 economies of the world by the end of this century), the Chinese have chosen to make bitter opponents out of what could have been valuable allies, thereby potentially rendering a short-term tactical victory into, at best, long-term strategic ambiguity. Whether one side or other is “right” in this matter is immaterial. Rather, my point is that the Chinese ought to have exercised a level of coolness and charisma here that they have neglected to do at their own peril.

    “Charisma” brings me to another point. The PRC has managed its present considerable diplomatic heft less through finesse than through the dint of sheer brawn. From early on, however, the US mastered—arguably invented—the art of diplomacy as global
    PR. Whether one likes it or not, American diplomacy, through the soft power of its nation’s pop culture, projects to the world, despite its true nature, a benign amiability that has helped generate a lasting goodwill towards it, even from nations and peoples it had once violently vanquished (e.g. Germany and Japan). The PRC, on the other hand is widely understood, even by countries that seek its favor, to ultimately be nakedly rapacious in its intent. There are no illusions about the transactional nature of these relationships, no attendant beautiful “ideals” such as those (e.g. “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” all while prospering economically) that soften opinions on behalf of American interests. Nations and peoples hostile to the US often reserve their bile solely for its government, largely absolving its people and especially its cultural products from blame in furthering the very objectives they decry. Even Osama bin Laden, after all, enjoyed Pixar and Dreamworks cartoons.

    The PRC is also hobbled by the Mandarin language, which poses formidable difficulties even for those of us fluent in other East Asian languages. The written language may be the least challenging aspect; mastering the spoken language, its dizzying array of tones and inflections, is something else entirely. English, for all its contradictory inconsistencies, is far more accessible than Mandarin will ever be. Even if the PRC manages to attain global hegemony, English will remain the world’s lingua franca for a very long time.

    For a lot of reasons that would require more of a rebuttal essay rather than a standard-length comment, the Pax Sinica will—barring some grave historic future event—elude the PRC’s grasp. Never will they enjoy the unencumbered control of global affairs that the US managed 1945 – 1973, which occurred only because the Pax Americana came at the cost of obliterating or bankrupting all its other major rivals, leaving them in the rubble for well over a generation. Frustratingly for the Chinese, American strength, while greatly weakened from its mid-20th century zenith, will remain enough of a force throughout this century to pose a serious impediment to their aspirations. They may have the ability to land a knockout blow to the US, but if so then the window for that opportunity (demographic trends are projected to become highly unfavorable beginning in the 2030s) is fast closing. The PRC, at any rate, remains highly dependent on the US, much more than it cares to admit; at best it can only help manage its steady decline, but will likely not dare to trigger a collapse.

    Again, I would prefer a world with the PRC as sole superpower or at least co-superpower, but am pessimistically expecting the US, even if it is no longer the world’s top economy, to remain the “leader” by default.

  35. eah says:

    An “embargo” is not the same as a tariff — you should note the difference.

    An older article (2009), but still relevant as it offers a good explanation of how and why China (unfairly) manipulates its currency to support/maintain its export-driven economy — this still happens today:

    China’s Unfair Currency Advantage

    You see, exports have been, and are, the key driver of growth in China. And when dollar-based investments and revenues flow into China, converting those inflows to the yuan puts upward pressure on China’s currency. This upward pressure threatens to strengthen the yuan, making it less competitive on a global stage for trade…China doesn’t want that … China needs a weak yuan to continue exporting its way to growth. That’s why the Chinese central bank manages the value of its currency…To offset the local demand to exchange U.S. dollars for yuan, the central bank takes the other side — selling yuan and buying dollars. This keeps the exchange rate stable, and China builds vast amounts of dollar reserves.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  36. Curious says:

    According to the Maddison Database, China’s per capita income grew from $989 to $1307 in the period that Mr. Roberts claimed it grew by 64%, namely from 1952 until 1972. But unless my math is wrong, that jump is closer to 32%, so half of the actual statement made.

    Worse, it did so while being one of the poorest countries on earth. So it should have tripled or quadrupled had it been a reasonably fast growth rate for such a desperately poor country. China is certainly doing well now but the author’s insane praise of Mao makes his judgement become far less credible in other areas.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  37. About some really nice portrays of China(no more poverty, etc.) in this article,
    In the 80s 90s and early years of new millennium, in Chinese media we have A LOT of nice descriptions about how heavenly like the west world is and how great their people are, that some Chinese get really dazzled even hurt by the dream like pictures of the west world. Years later we find that there are some truth in it, yet there are also lies.
    We hate those ones tell us lies to beautify and perfect others and hurt our feelings and fooled our people so badly. But in the meantime, some liars told us: when I lie to you about how perfect the other world is, it’s not about the other world at all, it’s actually about what a world I would like for ourselves.
    So I guess the author here is possibly doing the same thing.

    About Mao Zedong
    In China, we don’t say much about economic growth and other good things that Mao brought as in this article. It’s not because he didn’t do a good job at it, it’s because he did much better job regarding to some other more important things.
    Mao changed the people, rapidly and fundamentally! THE PEOPLE!
    The people were continuously ruled by late Qing dynasties, by warlords, by ROC government; the people live in extreme poverty, brutal wars and countless disasters, in chaos, in disease, in whatever kind of the hell the real world could be. What kind of human being the people become after living in such world for hundred years? What is it like for their mental status and spirit world? It’s just beyond words.
    Mao changed the people in the way nobody else can. The older we get, the more we understand how great Mao is.
    Mao is GREART! Mao is the best gift Chinese people ever had in the recent thousand years.
    I don’t want to make it an anthem of Mao, it’s just Mao deserves much better than any anthems.
    It’s a loss that most youngsters in China don’t read the complete works of Mao anymore, though his thought is still a required course in the collage.
    I won’t argue with anyone who tarnishes Mao, no matter who you are, you are either enemy of China or enemy of Chinese people, or even more pathetically you are brainwashed fellowman.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  38. Huh says:
    @Cognitive Dissonance

    People who write about potential future wars between big players, such as US and China, seem not to realize that any such “war” means the end of our common society as such and COMPLETE distruction of the world as we know it. If they think such war could be fought without massive use of nuclear weapons, they are seriously mistaken; any such comment or prediction brings us one step closer to real worldwide disaster!

  39. AmRusDebate says: • Website

    Quality of comments here is fabulous. Bravo. Very informative back and forth.

    Afraid I can’t contribute to this high-brow discussion, and have to drag it down.

    I disagree completely with premise of the article.

    China is a huge problem. Needs to be crushed at all costs.

    China concerns everyone. From the smallest to the biggest countries. For the world.

    There are two reasons China is competitive in today’s market, pace Anatoly Karlin’s obsession with high Chinese IQ (I think a bit of time in China will jiggle his IQ passions).

    The first: norms arbitrage. Everyone who is anyone goes to China to skirt high standards of OECD countries. From environment, to labor standards. China is unlivable. The air is nu-breathable, but as long as Euros and Dollars are multiplying, who gives a damn!? Work routines are slave like. Homes are shit, and rarely lived in. They are dormitories. Life is hectic, unfriendly, trying, hopeless. Utterly hopeless.

    Second factor, China has a closed capital account. It is not a free market economy in the technical sense. This matters. Matters a whole hell of a lot. Fat profit margins get Davos to turn their gaze the other way, but when those margins become fatter in East Africa, South East Asia or Latin America, Capitalists will finally want a share of the domestic Chinese economy. From insurance to banking, to out right ownership of media, etc, China is retrograde in this respect.

    IP theft from China is enormous. Approximately half a trillion a year. Does it matter that Western firms facilitate this theft, because they cannot compete with one another otherwise, in their own domestic markets? That’s for experts to decide.

    As things stand, China is a slave-state in which OECD Capital finances a Communist Party to mind Chinese slave labor to assure dividends on Wall Street.

    Trump is tackling this the right way. China is not to blame for the situation. OECD capital is/was part of the problem. Trump has to take on both Wall Street and Beijing, to affect change.

    Crap about how China produced highly skilled manufactured goods in the 16th century that Europe could not produce can be saved for historical ignoramuses, Sinophiles, and the naive. The capital goods investment in parts of European productivity has historically outpaced that of China from about 500 BC and on. Only comparable region is Central Asia. Cliometrics is unambiguous on this.

    In short, save us the hokum about Chinese values, culture, etc. These are a people unconcerned with anything and anyone but themselves. Insular minded, bitterly ethnocentric, and quite limited. R&D data which includes foreign spending in China, is still half of America’s spending on R&D in total terms (USA is north of half a trillion).

  40. Agent76 says:

    Jun 22, 2019 Arctic Tensions! US Eyes Military Port to Counter Russia & China at North Pole

    US lawmakers want its military to challenge Russia and China on the high seas by finding one or more locations for a port that would help feed Washington’s growing appetite for Arctic oil and other natural riches.

    Apr 27, 2019 CIA: Huawei Funded by Chinese Military

    Huawei has deep connections with China’s military according to the CIA.

    • Replies: @denk
  41. China’s slim margin of exports over imports hides the fact that most of its imports are raw materials, including coal and oil, that it turns into exports through the use of labor and expanding credit. China is far more dependent on exports to maintain its improving way of life.

    In the end China is more dependent on expanding credit than most nations and will see very hard times when the bubble bursts and the malinvestment is revealed.

    They, like the US, have moved millions from subsistence farms to crowded cities. Both cases are powder kegs awaiting a spark, but the US can at least feed itself.

  42. @Laowai234

    Our Western society has Machiavelli and his cost/benefit machinations, the Chinese have Lao Tzu and ‘without fundamental trust, there is no trust at all’.

    We remember Alexander, Ceasar, Napoleon. They remember the Duke of Zhou and Liu Bang. Democracy sentenced Socrates to death.

    I don’t know from where you get that they lack trust or faith. Maybe because their society is only just now emerging from a century of drugs, war, and the mistrust that naturally brings. But just like Russia, the people are emerging back to where they were before – trusting cooperative people. And the governments know that to nurture that characteristic in their people’s, peace is necessary.

    • Replies: @Laowai234
  43. APilgrim says:

    Remembering the biggest mass murder in the history of the world’, By Ilya Somin, August 3, 2016, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/https://www.scmp.com/article/723956/revisiting-calamitous-time

    Mao thought that he could catapult his country past its competitors by herding villagers across the country into giant people’s communes. In pursuit of a utopian paradise, everything was collectivised. People had their work, homes, land, belongings and livelihoods taken from them. In collective canteens, food, distributed by the spoonful according to merit, became a weapon used to force people to follow the party’s every dictate. As incentives to work were removed, coercion and violence were used instead to compel famished farmers to perform labour on poorly planned irrigation projects while fields were neglected.

    A catastrophe of gargantuan proportions ensued. Extrapolating from published population statistics, historians have speculated that tens of millions of people died of starvation. But the true dimensions of what happened are only now coming to light thanks to the meticulous reports the party itself compiled during the famine. What comes out of this massive and detailed dossier is a tale of horror in which Mao emerges as one of the greatest mass murderers in history, responsible for the deaths of at least 45 million people between 1958 and 1962.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Godfree Roberts
  44. APilgrim says:

    Initial classicide (1947–1951 killings)

    The idea of a violent campaign against the landlord class was already drawn up in 1947 by Kang Sheng, an expert on terror tactics. Ren Bishi, a member of the party’s Central Committee, likewise stated in a 1948 speech that “30,000,000 landlords and rich peasants would have to be destroyed.” Shortly after the founding of the PRC in 1949, land reform, according to Mao biographer Philip Short, “lurched violently to the left” with Mao Zedong laying down new guidelines for “not correcting excesses prematurely.” Beatings, while not officially promoted by the party, were not prohibited either. While landlords had no protection, those who were branded “rich peasants” received moderate protections from violence and those on the lower end were fully protected. Mao insisted that the people themselves, not the security organs, should become involved in killing landlords who had oppressed them. Mao thought that peasants who killed landlords with their bare hands would become permanently linked to the revolutionary process in a way that passive spectators could not be. Those condemned as landlords were buried alive, dismembered, strangled and shot. The killing eventually gave rise to the saying “dou di zhu” (斗地主), or “fight the landlord” which was used by Mao to build support for the party.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  45. Laowai234 says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    The relevant comparison to Machiavelli is not Lao Tzu, who is fundamentally a mystic, but Han Fei and the Legalist tradition, which is called Fa Jia in Chinese. It is a cynical and amoral philosophy of realpolitik, and it has been the real guiding philosophy of Chinese leadership for 2000 years. The Chinese, a very practical people, have a saying: Wai Ru, Nei Fa, which means “Outside, Confucian. Inside, Legalist.” In other words, appear to be idealistic, virtuous, simple, and good, but inside be calculating and ruthless.

    As for remembered leaders, the most popular and memorialized leader in Chinese history is Mao Zedong. You are way, way off in thinking that people hark back to the Yellow Emperor and whatnot.

    Many Westerners have an idealized vision of Chinese society and culture based on Lao Tzu, Confucius, and kung fu movies. The reality is quite otherwise.

    • Replies: @Ilya G Poimandres
  46. MEFOBILLS says:
    @SteveK9

    Complaints about ‘forced’ contributions of IP to joint ventures are daft: companies sign them voluntarily to make profits and open new markets.

    It is even worse.

    American companies were COERCED into leaving American shores through finance tactics like Green-mail.

    Hedge funds would “borrow” a companies future stock they don’t own yet, and hypothecate new bank credit, to then buy the stock, to then push said stocks price.

    The threat?” Move to China to get some of that sweet labor arbitrage, so we in finance can get rich.

    What really happened in that America’s patrimony was sold for cheap. In terms of time: Sell the past, to make arbitrage today, to then screw the future.

    Short term profit taking sold the patrimony, to then cut-out American labor from their birthright, and cut them out of life.

    Any sort of pandering to China’s growth needs to realize that finance capitalism was an enabling element, perhaps the key variable to the rise of China.

    China also helped the wall street gambit along by issuing new Yuans to then swap for dollars won in mercantile trade.

    Mercantilism is another method, whereby you export more than you import. In this case, the idea was to grab dollars, to then recycle back to the U.S., to then BUY DEBT.

    Buying debt keeps dollar price high, and keeps the exchange rate relative to the Yuan favorable for mercantilism.

    In other words, China purposefully helped along the wall street gambit, with their purchasing decision to buy TBills instead of buying from U.S. mainstreet.

    Then there is well documented cases of China’s industrial policy to mine IP and America’s patrimony for cheap, to then transfer technology.

    This is indeed the case, and it cannot be overstated. Knowledge is very hard to come by, and to monetize it for cheap to get some arbitrage is outrageous. Inventors sometimes work their entire lives, and don’t want their IP to go to a Chinaman, to also enrich wall street crooks, they instead want it to go to their own people.

    So, China has looked out for their own interests, but lets be even handed here. America’s captains of industry, and wall street finance looted America, and China helped the gambit. There were always Yuans made available in China to swap for mercantile won dollars.

    This is the case, and if Godfree or anybody else says otherwise, they are sadly mistaken.

    That said, if I was China I would have done the same thing, and probably warned American’s that they were being played for suckers by elements within their own economy. Chinese did indeed take advantage of gullible Americans. It is quite easy to transfer technology that took years to invent and perfect in only moments.

    And we know who are our (((thought)) leaders who promulgate these false economic doctrines, and who also benefit from false neo-liberal finance capitalism.

    There is plenty of blame to go around, and China is not blameless. They helped engage in the theft of the ages, and it is time for American’s to wake up.

    The U.S. needs its own state banks, and wall street has to be corralled. Debts have to be released. America has to protect its people and interests. Finance capitalism and neo-liberal theories are proven failures.

    The tree of liberty is asking to be watered. These kinds of high crimes that screw over the future in a massive way cannot be overlooked.

  47. Patricus says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Just as Mao didn’t physically inseminate hundreds of millions of Chinese women he also did not grow the food and distribute it. You seem to think political leaders are gods.

    • Replies: @Parfois1
    , @Godfree Roberts
  48. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Rosie

    Let the record reflect that White men did this, not White women.

    Humans operate by prices and money.

    EBITDA and other other constructs determine outputs.

    The population of white women who understand these bigger forest instead of the trees concepts is vanishingly small.

    False doctrine did this, and the false doctrine emanates not from “white men” but instead from our (((friends))).

    It got its start in 1694 when bank of england became the first debt spreading bank, to then take over a country, to then also tie itself to “companies.” This would be a network of companies, including banking companies, with cross directorates and who are “international.” Importantly they also issue the money for civilization. Because they are international, and are driven by prices and money, they don’t give a damn about nations or its peoples.

    The U.S. adopted the method fully in 1913, when the banksters took over with Wilson’s progressive era acts.

    Women are not guardians of the frontiers, they are not evolved for it.

    And yes, white men have been duped. White men are trusting, and that is both a strength and weakness.

    The voting patterns for women are horrible, they tend to vote emotionally and for their own sex and self interests. They do not think in civilization terms, although you might be the exception.

    Exceptions don’t make the rule.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  49. MEFOBILLS says:
    @another fred

    China’s slim margin of exports over imports hides the fact that most of its imports are raw materials, including coal and oil, that it turns into exports through the use of labor and expanding credit. China is far more dependent on exports to maintain its improving way of life.

    China is using mercantilism and following the same model Japan used.

    China brings in raw materials on its East coast, by ship, and then finished goods leave said coast.

    Finished goods earn Chinese the increment of production. As China climbs up the knowledge curve, they move into high technology, where the increment of production returns higher wages.

    Any country that is a hewer of wood and drawer of water for other economies is going to be a failure.

    China, because it is so populous, can become the labor force for the world, and that pattern would be:

    Raw materials come in, and finished goods go out. The entire world supplies the raw materials for China’s workshop.

    Meanwhile, finance centers in London and Wall Street try to coordinate the action in China. However, China has smartly rope-a-doped the Western finance predators, and has overcome them with state finance means.

    In a nutshell, the pattern throughout the Western world, is for “capital” to find returns elsewhere, and that meant China and its millions of debt free post communist workers.

    These new workers were to become indebted to western finance (((masters))), but that didn’t happen. Instead, China has correctly plotted its own course, and is onto the game promulgated by the parasites.

    Now that China has climbed up the knowledge curve (and was given its knowledge through the wall street gambit), it can always turn on internal consumption.

    Also, belt and road promises to grab minerals, earth and energy from elsewhere (via rail) to keep the “workshop” going for awhile, and China’s seaborne east coast becomes less important.

    With regards to feeding itself, China is like a double helix with Russia, and there will be plenty of food to trade for finished goods.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  50. Yee says:

    Anonymous[392],

    “I would say America in the 90’s had genuine friends all over the world. There were many countries that helped America out of genuine friendship.”

    America in the 90s, when it was at its highest power, no surprise. When you’re richest and strongest in the world, you’d not be lack of friends.

    But it wasn’t “genuine friendship”, it was more like joining the predator for gains.

    Chinese started to played this “alliance of states” game in the Warring States circa 2500 years ago. If you have as long a history as we do, you’d understand that nations only have genuine allies or friendship when they face mortal threats. Any alliance based on gain is easy to break.

    So, America had genuine friendship in the cold war, not in the 90s. And certainly not now, when the alliance face no mutual danger and very likely a cost to be a genuine ally. The US has no chance to start a new Cold War, because China will be very careful to act defensive, not threatening.

    The same goes for China’s potential “friends”. Unless they face mortal threats, like Pakistan and North Korea, they wouldn’t be genuine friends of China.

  51. @AmRusDebate

    Your comment read like stupid. Just regurgitation of the points made in trash rags like the nyt n such.

    This is the unz, you can make stupid comments, but you will get attack for them.

    • Replies: @AmRusDebate
  52. Yee says:

    MEFOBILLS,

    “In other words, China purposefully helped along the wall street gambit, with their purchasing decision to buy TBills instead of buying from U.S. mainstreet.”

    Actually, China tried very hard to invest in various US industries, but the US government banned most of them. TBills is one of the few things China is allowed to buy with the dollars on hand. Another item is real estate.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  53. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Yee

    Actually, China tried very hard to invest in various US industries, but the US government banned most of them. TBills is one of the few things China is allowed to buy with the dollars on hand. Another item is real estate.

    There is truth in your statement, China did try to acquire sensitive industry and technology outright.

    There is a prime directive of economics: Goods trade must balance.

    China did NOT BUY U.S. mainstreet goods…. it did not buy washers and refrigerators and cars in equal proportion to its exports.

    This is indisputable.

    Also, China DID run copycat factories at night. Chinese workers at american owned companies would moonlight to transfer knowledge.

    The principle is that nations should operate in their self interest, and don’t be surprised when they do.

    China got around restriction on buying American sensitive industry by using their extra dollars to buy on dollar zones. This would be using dollars to buy influence in Africa and South America. Dollar zones exist because dollar is reserve.

    China/Wall Street Mercantile gambit had more than one dimension, and the Yuan was indeed manipulated to keep it in a band . This manipulation was on purpose to continue the gambit, which is on-going today.

    The U.S. political leaders are not economically savvy, and are paid off by the same wall street Oligarchy that continues to enjoy wage arbitrage from China.

    The rot is more internal to the U.S. than China, but China is NOT BLAMELESS.

    With regards to real estate, we can see first hand what returning hot flows of currency have done to Vancouver. It has pushed real estate prices so high, that native citizens cannot live in their own city.

    The prime directive is GOODS FOR GOODS in equal exchange. Flows into land or debt are a function of neo-liberal economic hypnosis.

    By the way, there are many Chinese who are taught economics in American schools, and they are a danger for China.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  54. Mike1 says:

    It’s pretty creepy to see such worship of a totalitarian dictatorship. A few points:

    – The annual disposable income chart is a joke. Apart from cherry picking data points and acting as if they are the same thing all of the “China wins!” part of the chart are extrapolations that have not occurred.
    – Interpersonal trust is high in China?!
    – China lacks a strong right side of the IQ bell curve. They have an almost endless supply of capable middle manager types. Their ability to power innovation is weak. The utter absence of innovation out of China over the last three decades considering the fire-hose of money they have had available borders on unbelievable.

    • LOL: Iris
  55. Republic says:

    The Holy See has urged Chinese priests to register with Beijing and it is distinctly possible that the next Pope will be a Chinese Communist. I kid you not.
    THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS

    What is the difference? The current pope is very similar.

  56. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Mike1

    Mike, stop whistling past the graveyard. China is no joke.

    Annual disposable income increases year on year.

    Extrapolations that have not occurred… there is still a trend line in the positive direction.

    Interpersonal trust has to be built over time, with good law and civilizational structures. China will get there. Yes, they are a low trust civilization at the moment, while U.S. high trust culture is trending the opposite way.

    (Do you think millions of different kinds of peoples emigrating from the third world engenders trusting relations in U.S.?)

    China lacks a strong right side of the IQ bell curve.
    CHINA HAS ENOUGH genius. It is a numbers game. The genius is definitely there, even though it is in lower ratio to the white race. HBD people are quite aware of statistics, north east asians are in a narrow band, but there are still tails on the right side of the bell curve. Chinese people can innovate and there are enough Chinese men to do the job. Not only that, they are searching for genius dna worldwide to then inject it into their human capital.

    Also, if China can continue to steal the patrimony of the West, to then monetize it for themselves, it doesn’t matter the genius ratio among nations.

    I hope people are beginning to see what a danger neo-liberal economics is to the world? Neo-liberal finance capitalism CANNOT compete with industrial capitalism. WW1 and 2 was largely fought over this and we haven’t learned.

    • Replies: @Mike1
  57. Malla says:
    @Cognitive Dissonance

    The U.S armed forces has being destroying itself with multiculturalism, feminism and transgenders. How will such a military fare against a comparatively homogeneous and motivated military like that of China? The US military is not the one the USA had in WW2 as far as overall quality of soldiers.

  58. Malla says:
    @APilgrim

    Communism. What can you say?

  59. The China trade war is total bullshit, and until all the US corporations that have factories in China start pulling out and bringing the jobs back home, this total bullshit propaganda, and on the US corporations pulling out of China, Hell will freeze over before that happens!

    • Replies: @Lin
  60. Vidi says:
    @Laowai234

    China is a low trust society

    Online transactions, where the buyer and the seller probably don’t ever see each other, obviously require a lot of trust. In one day last year (Singles Day 2018) China’s Alibaba did more than 213 billion yuan (30 billion US dollars) of business. That is a lot of trust.

    • Agree: Parfois1
    • Replies: @Laowai234
  61. @Cognitive Dissonance

    the neo-cons and other hawks definitely do want war.

    I think not. They are doing so well out of the threat of war, the talk of war, out of of provocations that might lead to war and the continuing avalanche of money that this warmongering brings into their bank balances, that they would have to be more mad than I think they are to want a real war. Yes, I grant you there are a few real nuts who want Armageddon for religious reasons but most of the warmongers, if interested in real war at all, are interested only in wars that they can win easily. Certainly the generals seem to be much less gung-ho than the politicos.

  62. Vidi says:
    @Mike1

    It’s pretty creepy to see such worship of a totalitarian dictatorship.

    Presumably, the US is not “totalitarian”, yet the US cops routinely kill hundreds of times more people each year than China’s cops — in spite of China having four times the population. The U.S.’s enlightened, democratic government is actually far harsher on its people than China’s dictatorship. And this is fact, not worship.

    • Replies: @Mike1
  63. @Laowai234

    Of course “American” corporations are full of greedy, immoral psychopaths who do all sorts of bad things. It doesn’t make the Chinese saints.

    Now, there you hit the nail on the head.

  64. @I read with online translator

    Thank you very much for your contribution. What you say is not only very important and hardly appreciated in the West at all, but is vital to understanding China today.

  65. @MEFOBILLS

    That said, if I was China I would have done the same thing, and probably warned American’s that they were being played for suckers by elements within their own economy. Chinese did indeed take advantage of gullible Americans. It is quite easy to transfer technology that took years to invent and perfect in only moments.

    In the 50’s, ’60s & ’70s the CCP put out masses of books pamphlets & magazines telling the workers of the world including those in the USA that they were being ripped-off, exploited by people who would sell them out in an instant if the price were right, but were listened to hardly at all. Almost all of them preferred to believe in the “American Dream”. (As some wag said: “You have to be asleep to believe in it!”)

    Well, now those that care to look objectively at the world around them, can see that the CCP was right and the MSM was lying. How many will see it? How many will draw the obvious conclusions from it? Even here, on the Unz site, a gathering of the relatively enlightened/interested/curious, many seem to deny it. As some one on this site said the other day: a fundamental part of the problem is that the MSM have so confused the terms of debate (Left and Right, Liberal and Conservative, Communist, Nazi, Socialist) and above all have almost eliminated the understanding of what is “Class”, that having an intelligent (or even intelligible) conversation about the world (or any political) situation is very difficult.

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  66. @MEFOBILLS

    The voting patterns for women are horrible, they tend to vote emotionally and for their own sex and self interests. They do not think in civilization terms, although you might be the exception.

    In the ZUSA and the ZUK Voting patterns do not change policies very much and do not change the ruling class at all.

  67. @MEFOBILLS

    Yes, No doubt you are right. I just hope that the CCP is aware of this danger.

  68. Agent76 says:

    Jul 15, 2019 Did the Vatican Fail Christians in China? | Cardinal Zen

    The Pope and Vatican made a controversial deal with the officially atheist Chinese Communist Party that has a major impact on the lives of Catholics and Christians living in China. I sit down with Hong Kong’s Cardinal Joseph Zen to learn more.

    Aug 26, 2015 How the West Re-colonized China

    The “Chinese dragon” of the last two decades may be faltering but it is still hailed by many as an economic miracle. Far from a great advance for Chinese workers, however, it is the direct result of a consolidation of power in the hands of a small clique of powerful families, families that have actively collaborated with Western financial oligarchs.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
    , @Malla
  69. onebornfree says: • Website

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” George Santayana

    How short the memories are! The communist Soviet Union completely collapsed in 1991.

    Various other communist and near communist states meanwhile stagger on, while their elites continue to loot their populations and lower the general standard of living, after initial illusionary economic booms [usually concocted through fake money issuance via centralized state run banks]

    But the dreamers still dream – “communism can work, so this time its different!”

    As Santayana said: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

    China- The Exception To The Rule?

    I’m supposed to somehow believe [via articles like this one] that communist run China, which is even now as I write further increasing the centralization of its economy [ as if enough somehow was not enough already 🙂 ], is somehow, magically, going to escape the total internal collapse it sooner or later faces because of that ongoing economic centralization.

    Yeah right!

    The only way out of this inevitable economic collapse for China is a radical economic decentralization.

    Further communist, anti-free market inspired centralization will only accelerate the day of China’s inevitable economic collapse, which may have well already started:

    “The leadership in Beijing probably wasn’t too disappointed with the country’s slowest in nearly 30 years 6.2% annualized GDP print published early Monday morning …”:

    Trump Slams Faltering Chinese Economy, Declares US ‘Winning’ Trade War
    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-15/trump-slams-faltering-chinese-economy-declares-us-winning-trade-war

    “….the government is not a wealth producer. It’s a wealth destroyer. The government does not create wealth, it destroys, limits, and eats up wealth. That’s really the heart of the matter.” Bill Bonner

    “Stupid is as stupid does” Forest Gump

    B.T.W., the exact same inevitable economic collapse fate awaits the US too, unless there is a radical downsizing of the socialist-but-not-quite -communist-but-getting-there, US government , and a return to freer markets with no [or at the least,very little government interference] somehow happens, but I ain’t holding my breath. 🙁

    No regards, onebornfree

    • Agree: Agent76
  70. Be that as it may, China today posted the lowest GDP growth in 27 years, at 6.2%. Maybe trade with America matters a lot more than Mr. Roberts suggested?

    The tribe is working hard to draw China into its fold. They know China is a gold mine and the future. Until last year, the Chinese economy was closed to foreign buyers, for e.g. the A shares in the Shanghai Stock Exchange, and the ability of foreign banks to set up wholly owned branches within China. But alas, these greedy capitalist pigs capitulated. Now the tribe is almost home free in taking over their economy.

    The trouble is, the government is not elected by the people under “free and fair” elections. As democracy is the best government money can buy, there is no way for the globalist bankers to influence elections and buy themselves a government that will protect their investments like in the US. As long as the CCP remain in charge, their investments will always be subjected to the whims of the Chinese government.

    But there is a silver lining. The ultimate weakness of the Chinese is their love of money. These people are born capitalists and as Stalin said, capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them with. The Chinese are every bit as greedy and unscrupulous as the tribe. The “Chinese Dream” is to get rich quick, by hook or by crook, then get a green card and move to America, GTFO before you get thrown in jail. And governments are after all, made up of people.

    Regardless of what the Chinese government’s official edicts, resourceful and unscrupulous Chinese government officials and businessmen will always find ways to get around it. And the globalist bankers will eventually take control of China’s economy the way they wanted, as the country will be sold out from the inside by fifth columnists the same way the west has been sold out.

  71. AmRusDebate says: • Website
    @Astuteobservor II

    The trouble is, what I said is true. The NYTimes don’t do it honor. They are not a blue collar man’s rag…they can’t address simple working folk.

    Visit the Middle Kingdom, you’ll see. It’s worst than anything our media can comprehend.

  72. MEFOBILLS says:

    But the dreamers still dream – “communism can work, so this time its different!”

    China has a communist government, which operates a non communist economy.

    Economics used to be called political economy.

    A fully communist economy is fully directed, as if all markets are inelastic. It is a giant pyramid scheme.

    China’s communist PARTY is not voted into power, but instead is constantly polling its people, getting data instead. The validity of the leadership is predicated on their performance and adherence to goals, and polling is the report card.

    China does not run a communist economy, the economy is mixed. A mixed economy has government embedded in inelastic sectors and the commons. As Hudson has pointed out, government is the fourth factor of production when it is involved in these sectors. I will add, which is also why industrial capitalism always wins. If American’s want to get tired of winning, then they must relearn the American system of economy, which China is now using.

    But since you are a Lolbertarian, these facts fly over your head. Lolbertarians are not equipped… they don’t have the mental software to understand the real world, because their form of economics is junk economics.

    J is for Junk.

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  73. @Laowai234

    Hah! I speak out of turn. I have always found the idea of Legalism to be so dry and boring as compared to the other surviving schools. Time to dig into what I am not interested in!

    Thank you for the pointer, I will endeavour to learn. 😀 (on a quick side note – education in China for the last 2000 years, broadly, emphasizing Legalism or Confucianism?)

    • Replies: @Laowai234
  74. onebornfree says: • Website

    Here’s what’s junk around here, this nonsensical sentence of yours :

    “If American’s want to get tired of winning, then they must relearn the American system of economy, which China is now using.”

    Time to lay of the hallucinogenics [or whatever it is you take], methinks:-) .

    No regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  75. MEFOBILLS says:
    @onebornfree

    The American System of economy of Henry Carey, Peshine Smith, and Henry Clay was born after the civil war.

    It ran from 1868 to 1913. It was the highest period of growth in the U.S. and also the highest rate of industrialization.

    The American system of economy used tariffs and injected state credit into industry and the commons.

    Sound familiar to China?

    Sorry if real history is at odds with Mises nonsense. Most rational people prefer to look at the world as it is, not what some devious theorists dream up. Also, our Austrian friends were members of the (((tribe))) and it is well known that tribesters are masters of dialectic.

  76. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Tired of Not Winning

    And the globalist bankers will eventually take control of China’s economy the way they wanted, as the country will be sold out from the inside by fifth columnists the same way the west has been sold out.

    When China’s five state banks are overtaken with some sort of devious law change, similar to Federal Reserve Act, only then can China be subverted. The law change will privatize the central banks and absorb them into the globalist western credit system.

    The money power has to be owned by fifth column elements in order to run their scams.

    After Tianaman square, the Chinese leadership got the message and kept their state banks.

  77. Important Article:

    1. reinvestment into population towards development of the powers of that population in terms of
    developed capabilities of the nation in applied industrial science.

    2. Reference to Agricultural Parity, though not explicitly said is found under the heading “Subsidies”. To explicate upon why a higher commodity price is important, it is because it provides Earned Income to the economy, freeing the economy from borrowing. To understand this read

    http://www.economy101.net/

    and note this chart, the collapse in a nutshell, and letter to the President to fix the problem!

    http://normeconomics.org/parity_table_45-16eb.pdf

  78. Oct. 31, 2018. Chinese airline reservations to the US dropped 42 percent for the first week of October and 102,000 fewer Chinese received business, leisure and educational visas from May through September, a 13 percent drop YOY.

    Reason alone to vote for Trump. I’d like to see all visas to Chinese nationals drop to ZERO, especially the EB5.

    End the Chinese invasion. Now.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  79. @MEFOBILLS

    It won’t be for long. Eventually the tribe will get to the senior party officials, promising them green cards, Harvard admission for their kids, $$. Next thing you know, all the banks will be privatized.

    Like the Indians, the only time a Chinese national loves his country is when he’s out of it.

  80. Vidi says:
    @Tired of Not Winning

    Be that as it may, China today posted the lowest GDP growth in 27 years, at 6.2%. Maybe trade with America matters a lot more than Mr. Roberts suggested?

    China’s economy is now much larger than the U.S.’s economy (in PPP terms). If the smaller US grew at 6.2% a year, Trump would be celebrating loudly non-stop.

  81. @Tired of Not Winning

    Like the Indians, the only time a Chinese national loves his country is when he’s out of it.

    That observation has also proven to be true in my personal experience.

  82. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Tired of Not Winning

    End the Chinese invasion. Now.

    End all immigration now. Why just settle for Chinese? We had a immigration cut-off in 1924. It was a national origins act.

    The idea was to create a new american man… a melting pot. People were to be similar enough to melt and create a united we stand type of country.

    Multiculturalism is a divided we fall ideology.

    Our (((friends))) who were immigrating from Germany, Pale of the Settlement and Shtetls from Poland circa 1880-1890, were tilting the country to the left, and Congress of those days was having none of it.

    Many of these immigrants were Jews who took the Kol-Niedre and lied their way into the U.S. They pretended to be Christians, and of course as soon as they arrived in America they immediately started agitating for Bolshevism, and even wanted their own state – Montana.

    The Jewess Emma Lazarus, who wrote the hypnotic poem on statue of liberty, was from this immigration cohort. The poem changed the meaning of Statue of Liberty, which actually was a gift from France celebrating America’s founding, and America/France’s friendship.

    Stupid liberals even think the Statue of Liberty Poem is the law of the land.

    Today’s neo-cons and neo-liberals infesting New York and Chicago are sons and daughters of this indigestible immigration wave. Many of this cohort moved to Hollywood to then program American’s with false images, and some went on to Las Vegas to launder crime money through Casinos. Basically, Crime-Inc spread throughout the U.S. to our detriment.

    In the case of immigrant Chinese, they may have some connection to the motherland in first generation, but by second or third, they are Americanized.

    Chinese women out-marry at high rates, and they tend to norm to the behaviors of their mostly white husbands. In other words, the out-marry rate is a killer for China ethnic networking. Chinese also don’t have a predatory ideology like Talmudism that programs their people with bad narrative.

    In diaspora countries where there is a large Chinese population, they don’t try to take-over government, nor do they attach themselves like a parasite to the organs of a countries power (the press, schools, media).

    The Jew has demonstrated himself/herself to the be biggest immigrant problem by far.

    • Replies: @Tired of Not Winning
  83. Lin says:
    @Tired of Not Winning

    “Like the Indians, the only time a Chinese national loves his country is when he’s out of it…”
    Funny statement; considered that recited Chinese science researched papers volume is approaching that of the US…; where do those patriotic Chinese scientists reside ?

  84. Lin says:
    @DESERT FOX

    “The China trade war is total bullshit, and until all the US corporations that have factories in China start pulling out and bringing the jobs back home, this total bullshit propaganda, and on the US corporations pulling out of China, ..”
    Go ahead and bring back all the low-value-added, low pay, like seamstress’s, phone assembly line..jobs(which are moving out from china to places like vietname, Bangladesh..) back to America so that they could compete with robots. BTW, I suggest from now on, factory workers all over the world should start putting on R2D2 suits to go to work to compete with automation/robotics.

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  85. @MEFOBILLS

    I sort of agree with you. But, it gets irritating being surrounded by people who talk loudly in a language you don’t understand, chew with their mouths open, speak with their mouths full, and in general behave incredibly rudely. And even if the second generation is better assimilated, the fact that so many continue to pour in means we will always be surrounded by lots of first generation, so the ties to the motherland will always be strong. Being good students means they are increasingly being brainwashed into SJWs. MSM like NYT is working hard to promote East Asian SJWs like Sarah Jeong.

    This pretty much applies to all immigrants. In small numbers you assimilate them, in large numbers they assimilate you. The US needs a 40 year moratorium on all immigration, period.

    The Jew has demonstrated himself/herself to the be biggest immigrant problem by far.

    Unfortunately the Indians are every bit as clannish and power loving as the Jews. So many are now running for office, and they are organizing themselves to fund Indian candidates all over the country. Most of those who run are Indian women, and 99% are left wing socialist nuts like Saira Rao(D-CO), Pramila Jayapal(D-WA), Kshama Sawant(D-Seattle).

  86. Mike1 says:
    @MEFOBILLS

    “Neo-liberal finance capitalism CANNOT compete with industrial capitalism”. Very true.

  87. Mike1 says:
    @Vidi

    China just captures the criminals alive then executes them to order for their body parts. Nothing at all creepy about that.

    • Replies: @APilgrim
    , @Godfree Roberts
  88. Parfois1 says:
    @Patricus

    He’s doing what every Harry, Dick and Tom do. Whenever they refer to “the enemy” country, they personalize it as “Lenin killed 20 million, Hitler 30 million, Stalin 60 million, Mao 100 million,” and so on. By the same token, why not “Mao reproduced 200 million”? He had a reputation to uphold too…

    Funny enough, I never heard of an US president killing anybody, only “Americans” do such nasty things.

  89. Parfois1 says:
    @foolisholdman

    …a fundamental part of the problem is that the MSM have so confused the terms of debate (Left and Right, Liberal and Conservative, Communist, Nazi, Socialist) and above all have almost eliminated the understanding of what is “Class”,

    Often I assail other commenters (the usual hard pate variety) because of their fumbled discourse on political concepts. Supposedly intelligent and educated people here believe that the US government is Marxist, communist, socialist, leftist and other asininities, which I assume is their way of using those terms as meaningless pejoratives because they lack the underlying knowledge of basic terminology and political understanding. Some go as far as claiming we live in classless societies which, ironically, is the mission and goal of Communism, in addition to getting rid of the State.

    I am MSM-free, so I do not know whether there is a contrived aim to eradicate class consciousness or political distinctions from the masses in order to desensitize people from their traditional loyalties such as religion, family, working class, political affiliation, race, and so on as part of the long-term programme to turn humanity into an amarphous Homo Globalis for easier control.

    This confusion, or ignorance, is clearly seen in the US political scene where the two-party system is pure pretence for the unrepresentative totalitarian single-party state using the revolving door of elections as democratic camouflage.

  90. @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    You have some misapprehensions about China that need to be cleared up:

    While Mao’s prediction quoted at the head of this article would ultimately prove him to be correct, it also must be admitted that this result occurred largely in spite of him and his policies. Had the immediate postwar PRC instead been stewarded by sober bureaucrats like Meiji Japan had in Matsukata Masayoshi or Katō Tadaaki, then the PRC may very well have achieved its economic/military potential far sooner

    .

    Hardly. Mao undertook China’s modern political, agricultural and industrial revolutions. Starting with an industrial base smaller than that of Belgium’s in the 50s, the China that for so long was ridiculed as “the sick man of Asia” emerged at the end of the Mao period as one of the six largest industrial producers in the world. National income grew five-fold over the 25-year period 1952-78, increasing from 60 billion to over 300 billion yuan, with industry accounting for most of the growth. On a per capita basis, the index of national income (at constant prices) increased from 100 in 1949 (and 160 in 1952) to 217 in 1957 and 440 in 1978.

    Over the last two decades of Mao’s tenure, from 1957 to 1975, China’s national income increased by 63 percent on a per capita basis during this period of rapid population growth, more than doubling overall and the basic foundations for modern industrialism were laid and outpacing every other development takeoff in history. In Japan from 1874-1929 the rate was 43 percent. In China over the years 1952-72 the decadal rate was 64 percent. Save for limited Soviet aid in the 1950s, repaid in full and with interest by 1966, Mao’s industrialization proceeded under punitive embargoes the entire 25 years–without benefit of foreign loans or investments–yet Mao was unique among developing country leaders in being able to claim an economy burdened by neither foreign debt nor internal inflation. Without Mao’s industrial revolution, the economic reformers of the post-Mao era would have had little to reform because the higher yields obtained on individual family farms during later years would not have been possible without the vast irrigation and flood-control projects–dams, irrigation works and river dikes–constructed by collectivized peasants in the 1950s and 1960s.

    The PRC has managed its present considerable diplomatic heft less through finesse than through the dint of sheer brawn. From early on, however, the US mastered—arguably invented—the art of diplomacy as global PR.

    Seriously? Did you count the number of countries (130) that showed up for the last BRI jamboree–even though the program won’t launch until 2021? American hegemony has been maintained by violence, total control of the world’s media and finances. The violence has failed and is bankrupting the country; trust in mainstream media has fallen to 6% (China has hired 2,800 foreign journalists, has full media facilities in every capital city on earth and will launch a news service in cooperation with RT in 2021) and is the go-to source for money.

    While understandable and perhaps even reasonable from a Chinese defense perspective, their brusque handling of their neighbors’ claims may prove to be a bad decision in the long run. Instead of working out an equitable compromise with them, some of which are among today’s fastest growing economies (both Vietnam and the Philippines are projected to be among the top 10 or 15 economies of the world by the end of this century), the Chinese have chosen to make bitter opponents out of what could have been valuable allies,

    The ‘brusque handling’ occurred entirely in the pages of our media. For their part, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Vietnam do not seek to dislodge China from the strongholds it has built to establish an immovable presence alongside them.  Despite differences with the United States Navy over how to draw territorial baselines around its bastions, China does not threaten freedom of commercial navigation in the South China Sea.  After all, two-thirds of the shipping there is en route to or from Chinese ports.  It’s hard to ignore these facts unless the prejudicial narratives of the American media miasma prevent one from seeing them. “China makes no demands on its neighbors at present, other than respectful politesse, mutual openness to trade and investment, and the avoidance of collusion with third parties in active threats to its security.  Whether they are historic American allies or not, not one of China’s neighbors has signed onto the current U.S. campaign to isolate China.  They want to use backing from America not to confront China but to strike a balanced and sustainable accommodation with it.” US AMBASSADOR CHAS. H. FREEMAN

  91. @eah

    I addressed the ‘export-driven economy’ meme in the article. Did you miss it?

    Though it accounts for 86% of Europe’s GDP and 56% of Canada’s, trade accounts for only 37% of China’s and 26% of America’s..

    Net exports (exports minus imports) are two percent of China’s GDP.

    Imports account for 19% of China’s GDP and 15% of America’s but, while China’s global current-account surplus has fallen from 10% of GDP to 1.4%, America’s deficit has not budged.

    • Replies: @eah
  92. denk says:

    faq

    Q] Has ‘China’s aggressiveness driven away all its neighbors towards the great satan’ ?

    A] That’s another monumental lie from the united snakes.

    Fact is…in the past 7 decades,
    Every single leader who’s friendly to China has been taken out and replaced by Washington’s puppet, by soft coup [ex jp], palace coup [ex Whitnam] , down to murder [ex Nepal’s king Birendra’s entire family wiped out in 2001] and outright genocide [the mother of all regime change in indon, 1965, to remove pro Beijing prez Sukarno with CIA asset Suharto, collateral damages estimated at 3M, including almost the entire Chinese community]

    Here’s a partial list,

    Panda huggers ousted, murdered, by CIA/MI6/RAW…

    PM YIng LUck , Thailand,
    PM Najib, Malaysia,
    prez Arroyo, Ph,
    prez Sukarno, INdon,
    PM Hatoyama, jp,
    prez Park Chung hue, SK,
    PM Whitnam, Oz,
    PM Lange , NZ,
    PM Norman Kirk, NZ,
    KIng BIrendra, Nepal,
    KIng Gyanendra Nepa,
    PM Oli, Napal
    prez Rajapaksa, Sri Lanka
    prez Yameen Maldives,
    PM Rajiv Ghandi, India,
    PM Alkatiri, E Timor,
    PM Thinley, BHutan,

    Tip of an iceberg.

    The craptrap that China’s ‘aggressiveness’ drive off all its neighbors towards the great satan, has been debunked hundreds of times here by yours truly.

    Yet day after day, you see murikkans insist on repeating that big lie.

    Is lying built into murikkans DNA ?

    Whaddaya say ?

    P.S.
    With apology to the 10% decent yanks,

  93. @Curious

    The Maddison database is interesting but not authoritative, and is least useful for Chinese stats, which Angus Maddison himself said. He compiled it long before the West got access to PRC stats.

    The post-Mao jump in GDP growth was largely due to two factors: the lifting of the world embargo on China and China’s subsequent admission to the WTO.

    Even according to figures released by the Deng Xiaoping regime, industrial production increased by 11.2% per year from 1952-1976 (by 10% a year during the alleged catastrophe of the Cultural Revolution). In 1952 industry was 36% of gross value of national output in China. By 1975 industry was 72% and agriculture was 28%. It is quite obvious that Mao’s supposedly disastrous socialist economic policies paved the way for the rapid (but inegalitarian and unbalanced) economic development of the post-Mao era.8

    The best western source for the period is Maurice Meisner’s very readable Mao Zedong: A Political and Intellectual Portrait.

    • Replies: @Curious
  94. Parfois1 says:
    @MEFOBILLS

    China has a communist government, which operates a non communist economy.

    You are confusing terms to explain simple facts. Communism is an ideology, not an existing economic or political practice.

    There is no, and there never has been, a Communist government anywhere and China is not a Communist state. It aims to become one but it is not there yet by far. The government is, presumably, made up of members of the Communist Party but that government may enact policies which run counter to communist precepts, such as the current “mixed economy” stage or even full-fledged capitalism ; or the government might be made up of non-party technocrats practising communist policies. The long term guiding principle maybe Communism as prescribed by the Congress (the ideal classless and stateless society may never be achieved) but to reach that stage it has to go through the intermediary step of Socialism typified by the “dictatorship of the proletariat” until the social and economic conditions are settled in readiness to move ahead to Communism.

    The USSR was nearly getting to full Socialism economically because of public ownership of the means of production and fully integrated command economy but still with a limited private sector (family business, traditional markets). But not socially; there were still remnants of class differentiation and income inequality – e.g. factory managers could get incomes (wages and bonus) up to 7 times the minimum wage.

    Back to basics. No-one knows what a Communist economy would look like apart from the end of the owner-worker relation. The Russian pioneers did not know and did not have a blue-print on how to build Socialism, it was on-the-job learning process and it evolved in response to the objective conditions facing them at the time. The Chinese communists are also building Socialism with their own characteristics as they progress towards Communism as they see fit.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
    , @Parfois1
  95. @AmRusDebate

    Hmmm. Where are you getting your information?

    Let me guess. From our MSM, the same source that only 6% of us trust. So why trust them when they report on a system that will, if it continues as it has, make capitalism obsolete by the end of this century?

    Two of your comments scream “Fox News!”

    IP theft from China is enormous. Approximately half a trillion a year. There is zero evidence of this. ZERO. If you want a quotable source, http://cardozolawreview.com/prosecuting-chinese-spies-an-empirical-analysis-of-the-economic-espionage-act/. Besides, China is far ahead of the US in basic STEM research, patents granted and technologies mastered. 5G is the tip of the iceberg. Did you not grasp the implications of this chart?

    China is a slave-state in which OECD Capital finances a Communist Party to mind Chinese slave laborGive us a break!

    Next year every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health- and old age care.

    500,000,000 urban Chinese will have more net worth and disposable income than the average American, their mothers and infants will be less likely to die in childbirth, their children will graduate from high school three years ahead of American kids and live longer, healthier lives, their workers will get five times more vacations and there will be more drug addicts, suicides and executions, more homeless, poor, hungry and imprisoned people in America than in China.

    Some slave state.

  96. @Lo

    Developing economies grow faster due to the availability of unused resources while developed economies grow slower due to the law of diminishing returns.

    In 1949 China and India were in a roughly similar economic situation. Now compare the situation in China and India at the end of the 1970s. (That is, after the end of the disastrous Great Cultural Revolution which did not happen in India.) I think you are exaggerating the effect of “starting from a low level”.

  97. @another fred

    China is far less dependent on expanding credit than we are, since her economy is growing 300% faster and her debt is entirely domestic.

    And China, as a matter of national policy, is always able to feed herself. Food imports are icing on the cake.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  98. @APilgrim

    The reason only 6% of us trust our media is that they lie. Big time. About everything. By late 2018, says the American Press Institute, “Just six percent of Americans say they have a lot of confidence in the media, putting the news industry about equal to Congress and well below the public’s view of other institutions.” As Carl Sagan noted sadly, ”The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.” https://www.americanpressinstitute.org/publications/reports/survey-research/trust-news/.

    There is ZERO evidence that Mao killed anyone and abundant evidence that, by his personal intervention, he saved millions of lives. Here are three articles explaining this:

    http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered/?highlight=mao

    http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-great-proletarian-cultural-revolution/

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  99. @APilgrim

    That’s not quite correct. William Sewell, then a Christian missionary in Western China wrote:

    We knew from the papers that, in some parts of China where Land Reform had already taken place, there had been angry scenes and landlords had been beaten to death by the people or had killed themselves in fear. The Government realized that they had greatly underestimated the passions of the people when they were aroused; but now the officials were wiser and were present to see that matters did not get out of control. After the people had spoken, the landlords were either handed over to the police for trial or allowed to remain free, according to circumstance. Only those proven responsible for the death of a tenant combined with rape or for several deaths were legally liable for the death penalty.

    The need for reconstruction was urgent and Mao knew that Britain’s agrarian and industrial revolutions – which had dramatically increased production of food and goods – did so at the cost of two centuries of bloodshed.

    Despite Western embargoes, he completed both revolutions peacefully, launching the agrarian revolution in 1950 and completing it in 1953.

    Of the landlords’ one-hundred million acres (fifty percent of China’s cultivated land), three million draught animals, forty million farm implements and eight million tons of hoarded grain, he distributed half to landless peasants and farmhands and left the balance with the landlords.

    The redistribution relieved three-hundred million peasants of annual payments of seventy-billion tons of grain and, though they kept enough land to earn a living China’s landlords, the world’s oldest hereditary class, disappeared.

  100. @MEFOBILLS

    Thank you for reminding us of that shameful period. I had forgotten how our media praised companies that sold and leased back their premises and shipped their IP and manufacturing to China.

    The ‘savings’ were distributed to executives as bonuses and shareholders as special dividends. GE was a particularly egregious offended in this regard, trading a century of taxpayer-funded IP for access to China’s market. Look at the company today.

    I remember thinking at the time, “This can’t end well…”

  101. @Patricus

    It’s shorthand, and a simple way to refute the ‘Mao killed millions’ meme.

  102. @TomSchmidt

    I would not quote Wikipedia on anything with a political content, but as to your remarks about Mao, I agree with you entirely. Mao saved China from following the USSR’s example. The vultures were circling but in China’s case they were told to push off. The fight against “revisionism” was much derided in the west and the USSR but it was nonetheless of crucial importance.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  103. APilgrim says:
    @Lin

    Half of high school graduates have BELOW AVERAGE IQs & GPAs.

    They are NOT CAPABLE of ‘Rocket-Science’, Medicine, or International Finance.

    The ‘Menial-Labor’ you express contempt for, is honorable employment.

    GFY!

  104. APilgrim says:
    @Mike1

    Chinese Dissidents are carved up 1st.

    Not that actual INNOCENCE matters to God-Damned Malthusians or ‘Progressives’.

    So, there’s that.

  105. @Mike1

    The annual disposable income chart is a joke. Look out your window. Chances are you’ll see a Chinese tourist, one of 150,000,000 who will travel abroad this year and, wherever they travel, they’ll be the top spenders. The data comes from international sources and is entirely consistent with the fact that they’ve doubled their wages and pensions every decade for 50 years. Go see for yourself.

    Interpersonal trust is high in China The world’s biggest PR firm, Edelman, has been surveying trust levels for 30 years.

    China lacks a strong right side of the IQ bell curve. There are 10,000 super geniuses in the US – folks with an IQ of 160+. China has 330,000 of ’em. That’s one reason they’re so far ahead of us in science and technology.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  106. @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    “Charisma” brings me to another point. The PRC has managed its present considerable diplomatic heft less through finesse than through the dint of sheer brawn. From early on, however, the US mastered—arguably invented—the art of diplomacy as global
    PR. Whether one likes it or not, American diplomacy, through the soft power of its nation’s pop culture, projects to the world, despite its true nature, a benign amiability that has helped generate a lasting goodwill towards it, even from nations and peoples it had once violently vanquished (e.g. Germany and Japan). The PRC, on the other hand is widely understood, even by countries that seek its favor, to ultimately be nakedly rapacious in its intent. There are no illusions about the transactional nature of these relationships, no attendant beautiful “ideals” such as those (e.g. “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” all while prospering economically) that soften opinions on behalf of American interests. Nations and peoples hostile to the US often reserve their bile solely for its government, largely absolving its people and especially its cultural products from blame in furthering the very objectives they decry. Even Osama bin Laden, after all, enjoyed Pixar and Dreamworks cartoons.

    The Chinese do not control the Western Media. It controls no puppet governments.

    The PRC, on the other hand is widely understood, even by countries that seek its favor, to ultimately be nakedly rapacious in its intent.

    Maybe I am stupid but this remark puzzles me. Can you give examples, other than from the Western Media? I mean, while I can well understand that the NYT or the BBC takes this view which “countries which seek its favour” do?

  107. @onebornfree

    The only way out of this inevitable economic collapse for China is a radical economic decentralization?

    Beijing is extraordinarily hands-off, despite what we’ve been told:

    It’s really more like Switzerland in that respect:

    • Replies: @Malla
  108. @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    That this did not occur can only be blamed on the ineptitude and paranoid megalomania of Mao.

    You mean that the CIA was not trying to “terminate Mao with extreme prejudice”?

    “Ineptitude”? Would that the UK had had a few such “inept” politicians!

  109. denk says:
    @Yee

    What do you expect from Jason the wog Liu, Remember the last time how he blamed those ‘idiotic CCP’s paranoic, hamfisted crackdown on harmless UIghurs, uncecessarily incurring the international community’s wrath’ ?

    For that bullcrap he’s actually voted the ‘most matured Chinese posters in UNZ’ ,
    ROFLMAO !

    Jason is very good at currying favor, getting brownie points from stupid murikkans.

    Like so…

    But making friends is one of the things China sucks at. ”

    Fact is, China needs all the friends it can get, has gone out of its way to cultivate them, trouble is, all its allies have been co-opted, smacked down, obliterated by the great satan.

    I’ve debunked that B.S. hundreds of times already, might’ve even called him out for that once or twice, yet he’s still repeating that canard ad nauseum,

    no doubt this will get Jason more brownie points !

    hehehehe

  110. @Tired of Not Winning

    The Chinese are every bit as greedy and unscrupulous as the tribe. The facts say otherwise: next year, every Chinese will have a home, a job, plenty of food, education, safe streets, health- and old age care. 500,000,000 urban Chinese will have more net worth and disposable income than the average American, their mothers and infants will be less likely to die in childbirth, their children will graduate from high school three years ahead of American kids and live longer, healthier lives and there will be more drug addicts, suicides and executions, more homeless, poor, hungry and imprisoned people in America than in China. Which country looks like it’s inhabited by greedy, unscrupulous people?

    The “Chinese Dream” is to get rich quick, by hook or by crook, then get a green card and move to America, GTFO before you get thrown in jail. The most mobile people in the world are the rich and guess where they prefer to live? Most billionaires choose…Beijing.

    And governments are after all, made up of people. Roman governments have always been made up of bad people and Confucian governments have often been made up of good people. The current Chinese government – as its track record attests – is made up of good people.

  111. @Mike1

    The US investigated Falun Gong‘s vivisection allegation and found it unreliable:
    https://wikileaks.org/wiki/CRS:_China_and_Falun_Gong,_August_11,_2006.

    It’s also ridiculous when you actually think about the actual procedure. Who would perform it and why?

    • Replies: @last straw
  112. @Agent76

    Aug 26, 2015 How the West Re-colonized China

    Does China look like a colony?

  113. @onebornfree

    The only way out of this inevitable economic collapse for China

    I’ve been reading about this “inevitable economic collapse for China” since at the latest 1/10/1949. Of course it will happen sometime! Nothing lasts for ever. As Mao remarked in his last conversation with Edgar Snow : “Everything is changing, all the time, into something else.”

  114. @MEFOBILLS

    The money power has to be owned by fifth column elements in order to run their scams.

    I should think it is also necessary to have the Media at least neutral.

    • Agree: MEFOBILLS
  115. onebornfree says: • Website

    “Are India and China Booming as Much as They Claim?”

    “…Earlier this year, a study reported that China’s economy is about 12 percent smaller than the official figures, and also that the real growth has been exaggerated by about 1.7 percent annually from 2008–2016.

    The study was published in the Brookings papers of economic activity by a team of economists namely; Wei Chen, Xilu Chen, Chang-Tai Hsieh, and Zheng (Michael) Song: “China’s National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) adjusts the data provided by local governments to calculate GDP at the national level. The adjustments made by the NBS average 5% of GDP since the mid-2000s.”…”:

    https://mises.org/wire/are-india-and-china-booming-much-they-claim

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  116. Laowai234 says:
    @Vidi

    Online transactions in China are very well adapted to their low trust society. When someone buys something on Taobao or Tmall or Jingdong, they can see previous reviews of the seller and also leave a bad review if anything is wrong. Sellers care about these reviews and will often bend over backwards to appease unhappy customers. Also, the websites themselves have certain standards and will ban bad sellers after a while. So online commerce is preferred because if you buy a product in a shop, especially a small independent shop, there’s not much you can do if you get ripped off. The shop might even disappear the next day or week.

    So no, online transactions do not obviously require a lot of trust. They require a lot of transparency and safeguards, which their system provides.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  117. Laowai234 says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    Confucianism for the hoi polloi, to keep them in line. Legalism for the leaders, to teach them how to keep the hoi polloi in line and fend off other would-be leaders. The West is no different. Or do you think the Clintons and Bushes and Obamas really are Christians?

    This isn’t to say that Confucianism is just fake moralism for the masses. It’s a profound and beautiful philosophy. But over time it was corrupted and became stagnant. That’s why many Chinese sided with communism against it – the commies had some legitimate criticisms of the old Confucian order.

  118. @Godfree Roberts

    Mao’s so called great leap forward killed some 50 million and set China on a path of destruction and your defense of his crimes labels you as a communist, by the way the only thing that pulled China out of the devastation that they were in was David Rockerfeller and his opening up China’s slave labor to the US industrial predators.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  119. @denk

    Please don’t put Najib in there, it detracts from the statement you are trying to make.
    You should be happy to know that Najib’s temporary replacement Dr Mahathir is quite pro-China.
    He was on record saying the following:
    “We always say, we have had China as a neighbour for 2,000 years, we were never conquered by them. But the Europeans came in 1509, in two years, they conquered Malaysia.”

    • Replies: @denk
  120. eah says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    No, I didn’t miss it — did you note the difference between an embargo and tariffs?

    Modern China has spent forty of its seventy years under American and Western embargoes, so the current round is nothing new. How likely is it to succeed?

    I assume the “current round” refers mostly to the trade negotiations between China and the US (?) — that is not about an embargo (except perhaps in the case of Huawei, which is driven by security concerns, rightly or wrongly), but tariffs designed to address what (is seen as) an unfair advantage held by China — which China maintains at least in part by pegging its currency — ie not allowing it to float.

    The Chinese yuan has had a currency peg since 1994. This approach makes Chinese exports cheaper and, therefore, more attractive compared to those of other nations.

    I don’t know whether the yuan peg is part of the trade negotiations or not.

    I’m not that interested in all the statistics.

  121. @foolisholdman

    I used to say Wikipedia skewed left, but now I see it as skewing aligned with the Elite in the USA. If that elite wants China derogated, Wikipedia will so reflect, eventually.

    Stephane Courtois, as I recall, also cited deaths due to famine in the Black Book of Communism.

    Your point remains, and it shocks me to adopt it: people who stood up against what the Saker calls the AngloZionist Empire are not necessarily devils. I’m there on Mao, getting closer on Stalin, but doubt I’ll ever mentally rehabilitate that Chaplinesque fellow from Austria.

  122. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Parfois1

    Parfois,

    Nice replay as always, and I agree.

    My point is that communist economies tend to be command driven, with government inserted in all sectors. This command model is something like one big pyramid.

    Elastic markets in typical communist economies have too much government interference.

    Elastic sectors have natural competition to then control price. Government in this sector causes inefficiencies. There has to be some minimal regulation though. Remember the melamine baby formula problem in China, all so a company could make more money? Our lolbertarian friends would make the assertion that market forces would be enough to keep baby formula pure.

    Andropov tried to correct the deficiencies of a purely planned economy and it didn’t work out, or we didn’t get to see the end result before the collapse.

    Russia’s local governments within the oblasts (small pyramids of power) with some sort of feedback to the central government is working pretty well. As it happens Putin was trained under Andropov.

  123. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    and her debt is entirely domestic.

    Her debt is domestic AND most of the debt instruments are housed in the State Banks. This is critically important.

    It needs to be emphasized and understood in the most clear terms. Housing your debts in a state bank means that said debts can be jubileed.

    If you have a debt based money system, it is inevitable that debt claims will grow outside the bounds of nature. Said debts have to be released, which in turn means simply erasing them, so the debt holder is no longer making interest gains. The debt holder is not allowed to take a free lunch at the expense of society.

    China does have private banks who tend to borrow from big state banks. China’s private banks tend to be legally controlled, but they are still making bad loans.

    The West, as part of tariff “trade deal” is trying its best to “liberalize” Chinese finance, that is – insert wall street international credit means into Chinese economy.

    IMHO, if I were China, I would keep my state money power, maintain my sovereignty, and pivot to belt and road. China does not need to engage in Atlantacism false methods to maintain herself into the future.

  124. Vidi says:
    @Laowai234

    Online transactions in China are very well adapted to their low trust society. When someone buys something on Taobao or Tmall or Jingdong, they can see previous reviews of the seller and also leave a bad review if anything is wrong.

    So? As far as the customers are concerned, Alibaba, Taobao, et cetera could have faked the favorable reviews. The massive success of Singles Day 2018 proves that the customers trust Alibaba — and believe me, thirty billion dollars of sales in just a day is a lot of trust.

  125. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    There are 10,000 super geniuses in the US – folks with an IQ of 160+. China has 330,000 of ’em. That’s one reason they’re so far ahead of us in science and technology.

    Creative intelligence isn’t strongly correlated to super-genius. Above an IQ of about 130 it doesn’t matter anymore, and other factors begin to play. But, yes, China does have enough genius. Chinese are not down on the HBD scale, they do have enough human capital.

    Having a civilization that allows some flexibility for citizens to be cranks and individualists is as much a factor as sufficient intelligence. Historically, the west did a good job of having enough genius and giving them degrees of freedom.

    I want to emphasize also that China does receive inputs from creative genius in the west. For example, the semiconductor industry does its own research in house, and within research universities (taxpayer funded). This research soon leaks out and goes to China. Why? Because the west is open and free, and hence easy to infiltrate.

    Let’s be evenhanded please. China does steal, and this would be a form of rents, where earned income is shifted away from say, the American taxpayer, to then be monetized in China, or an American company in China. The recipient of this largess did not earn it, and hence it is a takings, or unearned income.

    The R and D at the American university is paid for by taxpayer and is intended to benefit American middle class taxpayers, but instead benefits others.

    This mechanism is one big reason America is losing its dynamism, as the model no longer works. China’s industrial capitalism can grab any new invention, or knowledge, say created at MIT, and then monetize it for the China economy. China helps this along by issuing new Yuans from its state banks, to then monetize its newly gained IP. Usually several companies are formed and they compete within China economy to bring new invention to scale, and then the laggard companies are pruned. Laggards are pruned and their debts are released. In the end, China has infrastructure, production capacity, and is at the cutting edge.

    Note once again, that injecting state credit, to then channel into industry ALWAYS WINS. Finance capitalism as a model is dead, and the West hasn’t gotten the memo. The wrong model won in WW2.

    Finance in America will happily try to export new Chinese made “goods” back to U.S. to then get arbitrage, and out of that arbitrage, will pay off congress critters.

    Let’s put the mechanism into concrete terms. U.S. invents semiconductors and the modern computer industry. U.S.industry then decides to build devices in China and Asia. U.S. taxpayers who funded much of the innovation, are cut out of industry they helped create. Instead it is monetized in other economies. Modern China can cherry pick innovation done in the U.S., and does this by mining new patents, and embedding agents in universities and companies. Then of course there is outright penetration by hacking into computer networks.

  126. denk says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    One more point….

    The eight nations alliance….
    5liars + Germany + France + Jp [honorable whitey, aka pseudo white] [1]
    are all predators, they often squabble , even fight amongst themselves ,LIKE in ww1, ww2.

    BUt they always hunt together.
    That spell trouble for their quarry.

    The ENA barbarians have never left China’s gate ever since the Opium war, burning of Yuan Ming Yuan.

    They’r behind the current mayhem in HK, they’r the mastermind of the Xinjiang destabilisation and demonisation caper, they’r riling the water in TW straits and SCS.

    China has been cursed with this ENA plague for 5 centuries, it’s divided , pillaged, raped, humiliated during its first iteration,,,,..recall ‘Chinese and dogs not allowed

    Can the Chinese survive this latest ENA assault ?

    [1]
    This is the original ENA,

    Russia has long outgrown its imperial binge,, whereas the 5liars have yet to evolve into civilised states of 21C, fact is, even the apparently least belligerent of the tribe, those NZ sheep herders, are now fully onboard the ENA bandwagon.
    After all, blood is thicker than water eh ?

  127. Vidi says:
    @DESERT FOX

    Mao’s so called great leap forward killed some 50 million and set China on a path of destruction

    Get it right, bud. Mao actually killed 100 million people, or maybe a billion — the lack of rainfall for years in a row had nothing to do with the deaths. And Mao killed them personally. His trigger finger must have gotten very tired, but hey, a man’s got to do what a man’s got to do.

    the only thing that pulled China out of the devastation that they were in was David Rockerfeller and his opening up China’s slave labor to the US industrial predators.

    Not so. According to actual data (link) — as opposed to your ignorant opinion — China grew at a compound rate of 6.1% a year from 1952 to the year of Mao’s death (1976). That is about the same rate as now (6.2%). A growth rate of 6.1% a year, if it’s sustained — and Mao sustained it for decades, in spite of drought that lead to famines, in spite of near total Western embargo, in spite of huge adversity — was beyond amazing.

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  128. denk says:
    @Tired of Not Winning

    Relax …

    Good news 1
    Trump has the Chinese all figured out.
    He’s clamping down big on Chinese students,
    scientists, bussinessmen, tourists/ all across the 5liars domain,.
    A gawd damn international Chinese exclusive act no less.

    Good news 2
    All the 5liars are launching MIGA,
    Make INdia Great again.
    Its open door for h1b talents all across the 5liars land, you’ll get to see more of your indian cousins instead of the bloody chicoms.

    black cloud on the horizon….
    I heard the Chinese economy is
    taking big hits from your econ blitzkrieg .
    THE Koreans , TW and japs are uprooting their operations in China, moving into VN, India, they’ll be massive unemployment in China, lots of discontented folks, also HK is turning into a shit hole… courtesy of your CIA/MI6 humanitarian intervention.

    There might be a new wave of economic refugees from the mainland and HK coming into the land of free, if so, dont blame China , blame the CIA !

  129. denk says:
    @anonymous_from_SEA

    its not exactly top secret stuff,
    fukus has been trying its damndest to unseat Najib for years, they failed in 2013/
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysia-failure-of-u-s-to-subvert-the-elections-and-install-a-proxy-regime/5334439

    BUt you cant put a good man down for long, I mean uncle scam, he finally succeeded in 2017.

    I know all about Mahathir , he has been a thorn in uncle scam’s side during his rule.

    Do you know he once called fukus the world’s no 1 terrorists states ?

    There’s even suggestion that MH370 was Soros exacting his pound of fresh , remember his spat with Mahathir during the 2008 economic meltdown in SEA. ?

    Perhaps ‘they’ reckon Mahathir as the ‘lesser evil’ ?
    if Najib hasnt been ousted, he’d be overseeing the full implementation of the BRI project now , which has been drastically slashed by Mahathir.

  130. @Vidi

    I stand by what I said.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  131. @foolisholdman

    The Chinese do not control the Western Media. It controls no puppet governments.

    The compelling projection of a charismatic pop culture has nothing to do with control of Western media or of lackey governments. How many puppet governments does the RoK have in its pockets? Yet that does not stop Kpop and Korean soap operas from being a global phenomenon, even in Japan where the cultural and political environment traditionally has been wary, if not hostile to South Korea.

    Which is not to say that the PRC does not have some extraordinary pop cultural products. Personally, I think Chinese-made movies to be the best around today. Compare something like P Storm to any of Hollywood’s barren, elephantine superhero monstrosities. The problem is that, unlike in the case of the RoK or Japan, the PRC has yet to figure out how to make its soft power a compelling projection. As long as the US is still thought of as a virtual synecdoche for “entertainment”, it will continue to be a hindrance to the interests of the PRC.

    Maybe I am stupid but this remark puzzles me. Can you give examples, other than from the Western Media?

    This would be difficult to prove as my knowledge of English, Spanish, French, German, and Japanese only limits me to publications in those languages. If by “other than Western” you mean “non-Anglo-American”, then PRC-skepticism or distrust is a fairly common recurring topic in a host of periodicals: from El País and El Clarín (Argentina), to Le Monde and the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, to especially the Yomiuri shimbun and Sankei shimbun.

  132. Vidi says:
    @DESERT FOX

    I stand by what I said.

    And you offer no evidence. I supplied a link, and you support your opinions with absolutely nothing.

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  133. MEFOBILLS says:
    @denk

    After all, blood is thicker than water eh ?

    The five liars are connected to each other through reserve loops of private banks, and through exchange rate mechanisms, like currency swaps.

    Interest on debts means that other peoples resources must be grabbed, to then convert the earth, to then pay the debts.

    It has little to do with blood. It has much more to do with economy. It actually has the most to do with private emission of credit at debt and at interest.

    You may recall that WW1 and 2 were white people killing white people.

    If you have a theory, and for it to be valid, it must work ALL THE TIME. You can test your theory using history.

    But, with regards to blood, nations have the right to be sovereign, and to protect their citizens. A single race country is always more stable than a multicultural multi racial country.

    • Replies: @denk
  134. @Vidi

    I take it your a communist, as you defend one of the worst mass killers in history.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @last straw
  135. Curious says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    You’re out of touch on the latest developments regarding Chinese data. Maddison himself hasn’t been actively involved – he’s dead after all – for many years in the project. There have also been numerous revisions, including incorporating new research on Chinese historical data in close collaboration with ethnically Chinese researchers.

    Deng Xiaoping’s period was many decades ago and there is no reason to take those numbers at face value. You don’t even provide an online source. There probably isn’t one, is my guess. Asking people to read some random book is hardly serious scholarship. Give specific sources for such wild assertions, especially when other datasets (which are actually available, including their methodologies) contradict your wild claims.

    Finally, industrial production =/= GDP.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Godfree Roberts
  136. Vidi says:
    @DESERT FOX

    I take it your a communist, as you defend one of the worst mass killers in history.

    I take it that you still have no credible evidence, only insults.

  137. Vidi says:
    @Curious

    You’re out of touch on the latest developments regarding Chinese data. Maddison himself hasn’t been actively involved – he’s dead after all – for many years in the project. There have also been numerous revisions, including incorporating new research on Chinese historical data in close collaboration with ethnically Chinese researchers.

    Maddison’s fundamental error was to measure a socialist economy (China) with capitalist metrics. It is not surprising that he got nonsense, which even he acknowledged was probably nonsense. I doubt his successors, with or without brainwashed Taiwanese participation, are any better.

  138. @denk

    China has been cursed with this ENA plague for 5 centuries

    Even without their presence, the PRC must contend with a lot of competing rivalries, interests, and unreliable neighbors in its own corner of the world. The US for the most part has never experienced anything like that from other nations in the Americas. Think of countries like the RoK, or even the DPRK, which because of historical ties ought to act in a more conciliatory manner to the PRC, but whose respective foreign policies nonetheless oscillate between goodwill and paranoia.

    Russia has long outgrown its imperial binge

    No country ever grows out of their imperial phase, platitudinal diplomatic gestures of international fraternity notwithstanding. Today it is all simply a matter of waiting to find the right moment to strike, annex, and project imperial ambition as a “humanitarian” act, the righting of historical wrongs, or whatever other nonsense feeble minds will be convinced by.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @denk
  139. @Godfree Roberts

    I appreciate your taking the time to reply.

    Over the last two decades of Mao’s tenure, from 1957 to 1975, China’s national income increased by 63 percent on a per capita basis during this period of rapid population growth, more than doubling overall and the basic foundations for modern industrialism were laid and outpacing every other development takeoff in history. In Japan from 1874-1929 the rate was 43 percent.

    Japan on the cusp of the Meiji Restoration was, arguably, a far more developed state than the PRC was in the immediate post-Pacific War and Chinese Civil War era. Though Japan obviously had little in the way of Western industrial craft (although it did exist in the pre-Meiji 19th century, albeit on a very limited scale), it did benefit from a fairly well-developed economy, longstanding stable and competent governance, and the lack of large-scale foreign meddling. Given that, it is therefore not surprising that the percentage of the PRC’s economic growth 1947 – 1975 should have been so proportionately larger than Meiji/Taishō/early Shōwa Japan’s, only because the PRC had practically nothing to start with. Numerically, the Meiji/Taishō Japanese were still far ahead of postwar Chinese living standards; in fact, the average Japanese were already by 1918—half a century after the Meiji Restoration—enjoying a standard of living comparable to European countries. Seventy-two years later, while growth has been undoubtedly remarkable and an elite class now enjoys a level of fabulous affluence unimaginable even a generation ago, the living standards of your average Chinese person remain far below that of the West’s, or even some of its immediate neighbors.

    Again, I do not dispute your figures. But they do need to be properly contextualized. Even if one accepts your presentation of them, there is no doubt that other economists would have been able to develop the PRC more efficiently than Mao.

    American hegemony has been maintained by violence, total control of the world’s media and finances

    I do not dispute that. What you say is the truth. However, most people choose to ignore that fact, or are simply oblivious to it. I read enough foreign periodicals on a daily basis to know that much of the world, unbelievably, still waxes rhapsodic about “American values”. Whether these “values” are real or not is besides the point. The projection of them is enough for most people to believe, thereby softening attitudes towards the US in a way that the PRC has yet to exploit. They have money, this is true. But you need more than that to win “hearts and minds”. For all its hypocrisy, the US has mastered that and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

    The ‘brusque handling’ occurred entirely in the pages of our media. For their part, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Vietnam do not seek to dislodge China from the strongholds it has built to establish an immovable presence alongside them.

    Not for lack of trying, nor does their inability to remove the PRC from their waters imply acceptance.

    China does not threaten freedom of commercial navigation in the South China Sea.

    With some caveats, I agree.

    US AMBASSADOR CHAS. H. FREEMAN

    Quoting Freeman, a well-known “China hand” or pro-PRC sympathizer, is a bit suspect here. I would prefer to hear the thoughts of a man who has no ideological stake in this horse race.

    Whether they are historic American allies or not, not one of China’s neighbors has signed onto the current U.S. campaign to isolate China.

    Depends on what we mean by “isolate”. Vietnam, Malaysia, and the Philippines may not be “isolating” the PRC explicitly, but have been goading other more powerful countries to serve as counterbalances. All these countries, for example, have asked Abe Shinzō for Japan to re-arm or to augment its military presence, never stating exactly the reason why, but rather tip-toeing around their concern about the PRC.

    A ridiculous idea, at any rate. Even if the wet dreams of the most fervent uyoku dantai came true, Japan today has no hope of ever militarily matching the PRC. If anything, it would be far more beneficial for it to detach itself from the US sphere and align with the PRC.

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
    , @denk
  140. @foolisholdman

    You mean that the CIA was not trying to “terminate Mao with extreme prejudice”?

    I am certain that they were. Mao was an inspiring leader and ideologue, sure, but those qualities do not a competent statesman make.

    “Ineptitude”? Would that the UK had had a few such “inept” politicians!

    The modern UK has a number of budding Maoists already in their midst. (I am not referring to Corbyn.) These toadying informants and iconoclasts would certainly have brought a smile to the face of our long departed Chairman.

  141. @Laowai234

    Well then, I am firmly ‘of the type’ developed by the hoi poloi!! 😀

    I don’t really see the Communist Party as deviating from the Mandate of Heaven model.. Sure, more rational than ritualistic, but the direct democracy of revolution is still within its spirit. How they rule, that is a different matter I need to explore!

  142. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    If anything, it would be far more beneficial for it to detach itself from the US sphere and align with the PRC.

    Japan was forced to attach itself to Atlantacism, which is a maritime strategy coupled with private banking/markets. Atlantacism got its birth in the Mediterranean with our (((friends))) strategy in in Greek Levant period. (Movement of goods by ship, including laundering and piracy.)

    It jumped to England, then to the U.S. and then made its way to Japan via Perry’s black ships, and then world war.

    Japan cannot just turn off its alignment to atlantic power, but it can reorient its economy to land power.

    If you look at a map, Russia is the closest land power via Sakhalin. It would require bridges and rail to Russia mainland, which Japan could fund.

  143. FB says: • Website
    @onebornfree

    OnebornSTUPID is for sure the most retarded commenter on UNZ…

    The only thing he knows is to regurgitate the mantras of the billionaire class…like a good little indoctrinated, non-thinking brainless wonder…who is under the mind control of those mighty plutocrats who seek to produce just such automatons…even though it means embracing an ideology that is self inflicted suicide…as we see with the now disappeared American middle class…

    It seems to bother him greatly that Socialist China is beating the oligarchic US like a rented mule…in every possible way…the average Chinese is better off than the average American in every possible way…from getting a fair shake in matters of employment…housing…education…justice…and every possible measure of human dignity…

    The average American is now nothing but a debt slave…even the house over his head depends on him keeping two or three part time McJobs…if he’s fortunate enough to have a better paying job…he knows he could be gone at any time during the next round of layoffs…60 percent of Americans can’t scratch together $1,000 in case of an emergency…they are living hand to mouth…which is not a life worth living…getting kicked around by every Shmoe that comes along…

    This graphic from the US Census Bureau says it all…

    If you combine the bottom two quintiles their average net worth is only $1,000… that’s 40 percent of US families…

    The fourth quintile has a net worth that is actually below the median house price in the US…which means they don’t even own their own home…

    The top quintile appears moderately comfortable…but that includes the top one percent and above…which is skewing that number up…most families in that top quintile, but below the one percent are going to be worth a lot less…

    And speaking of the one percent…here is a graph of the last 100 years showing the share of total national wealth held by the top 0.1 percent…

    Notice the golden era of the postwar decades, when a single earner working in a good manufacturing job could easily support a family in middle class comfort…a decent house that would not take decades to pay off…college education for the kids etc…the company president took home maybe ten times that of the shop floor worker…

    Then, starting about 1980…it all started going South… we see the 0.1 percent’s share shooting back up again…to where it is now…same as 100 years ago…back in the robber baron days…

    Also note that the 0.1 percent’s share started falling in 1933 with the socialist policies of FDR…that put millions to work building the infrastructure of highways, energy generation etc that we still rely on today…now mostly crumbling of course…Trump’s infrastructure fantasies notwithstanding…

    Yet we still have brainless dolts like onebornSTUPID preaching the ideology of the billionaire class…while not having a pot to piss in…

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  144. @MEFOBILLS

    It jumped to England, then to the U.S. and then made its way to Japan via Perry’s black ships, and then world war.

    Incidentally, I mentioned in another recent comment elsewhere on TUR about the Rothschilds’ critical participation in the Russo-Japanese War. This resulted in some interesting Japanese attempts to ingratiate themselves (in vain) to American Jewish (redundant term) media in World War II.

    If you look at a map, Russia is the closest land power via Sakhalin. It would require bridges and rail to Russia mainland, which Japan could fund.

    The Putin and Abe administrations have discussed this idea on and off over the past few years. Specifically, an undersea tunnel. I wish them success in this aim. Years ago I took the ferries to and from Sakhalin. Surprising to see in Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk (formerly Toyohara, Karafuto Prefecture) a number of exemplars of Shōwa modan architecture. Gorgeous.

    It is disappointing to not see Japan play its diplomatic hand more advantageously than they currently do. Their Ministry of Foreign Affairs is essentially another branch of the US government. Not for nothing do some people call Japan “the 51st state”.

    • Agree: MEFOBILLS
  145. @Godfree Roberts

    I think Falun Gong got its ideal from the Japanese Unit 731.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  146. @DESERT FOX

    I take it your a communist, as you defend one of the worst mass killers in history.

    I fail to understand your point. According to your excellent logic, the British government would be one of the worst mass murders in history, because on a per capita basis, the Great Famine in Ireland, during which more than 10% of the Irish population died, was even worse than the GLF. There were also many famines under British rule in India. BTW, China experienced once in a 100-year drought in the hardest hit area of famine during the GLF.

    If David Rockefeller have gotten his way, he would have installed a Chinese “Yeltsin” and caused tens of millions of premature deaths in China. The only reason the “Shock Therapy” caused only millions of premature deaths in Russia instead of tens of millions was because Russia had a much smaller base of population. So Yeltsin, his cronies, and their Western masters were also the worst mass murders of the 20th century?

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  147. I gotta comment that Mr Roberts is outstanding with this article. Almost on the same level as Ron’s articles. So many points backed up by facts n charts.

    Data is beautiful.

    Last article was bad IMO :p

  148. @last straw

    I stand by what I said, do some research on Mao’s great leap forward, it was one of the worst human holocausts in history and England has blood on its hands as well and the zio/US has been at war bombing and murdering people for over a century for the zionists, they are all warmongers and a purge on humanity.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Godfree Roberts
    , @denk
  149. Famine is not holocaust/genocide. If you do not understand this fact, I have wasted my time.

  150. Anonymous[681] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yee

    I have seen first hand how Chinese tourists/immigrants behave in North America, Europe as well as throughout Asia. They make it extremely difficult for anyone outside China to like China. The horrible manners of her citizens is the #1 reason why China has zero soft power.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Gammaray
  151. Anonymous[681] • Disclaimer says:
    @TomSchmidt

    To return the favor, China would need to burn or destroy someplace exclusive for the elites of the US Government, while not specifically harming the people. Davos, maybe? The Hamptons? Harvard, or, better yet, since its graduates ruled from 1989 to 2009, Yale?

    All are excellent candidates. I would also suggest Langley(CIA HQ), HQ of AIPAC, HQ of Mossad(somewhere in Israel), Hollywood, Wall Street, HQ of FB, NYT, CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, and the Capitol building while congress is in full session. The US government needs a do over.

  152. Vidi says:
    @DESERT FOX

    I stand by what I said, do some research on Mao’s great leap forward, it was one of the worst human holocausts in history

    You claimed that Mao killed 50 million people, so it’s on you to do research and provide some credible evidence. Instead, you stand by what you said on absolutely no evidence, preferring to issue insults.

    • Agree: FB
  153. Vidi says:
    @Anonymous

    I have seen first hand how Chinese tourists/immigrants behave in North America, Europe as well as throughout Asia. They make it extremely difficult for anyone outside China to like China. The horrible manners of her citizens is the #1 reason why China has zero soft power.

    We should believe what an anonymous, drive-by commenter says?

  154. Yee says:

    Anonymous[681] ,

    “I have seen first hand how Chinese tourists/immigrants behave in North America, Europe as well as throughout Asia. … The horrible manners of her citizens is the #1 reason why China has zero soft power.”

    Seems you haven’t seen enough tourists first hand…

    American tourists held (perhaps still holding, but I haven’t checked lately), the title for the worst tourist in global tourism business for decades…

  155. Parfois1 says:
    @Parfois1

    Well, I have no opinion as to what would be the preferable model to follow, if ever, but I do agree that some flexibility must be introduced to avoid the bottlenecks of a remote-controlled command economy, especially with consumer market products. Five-year plans are like oil supertankers and cannot possibly be responsive enough to satisfy demand although modern technology could improve response-time enormously.

    Also giving oblasts more decision-making power and autonomy to provide the day-to-day essentials (through co-ops and small traders) and therefore allow the central planners to concentrate on the macroeconomy.

    One of the reasons for the central command economy and a single bank (later there were smaller banks for specific purposes (e.g. savings) was to have a 360 degree view of a functioning economy and to audit the whole works to prevent corruption and theft because all transactions between enterprises (there were no cash and enterprise-to-enterprise invoices and payments) were monitored by Gosbank acting as the bookkeeper for every financial movements.

    The Chinese have learned and adopted most of the practical lessons of running a command economy from the USSR but also have adapted them to their needs, including the current phase for technological improvements. But in time, if the Communists remain inpower, the current mixed economic model will be terminated like the NEP once its usefulness is over.

  156. @denk

    Thank you! That’s very useful.

  157. @onebornfree

    90% of Brookings publications about China a nonsense. As you can see by browsing their archives, they have almost always been wrong about China’s past, present and future.

    The “bogus Chinese figures” meme is still running strong after 40 years. It’s a perennial favorite of lazy writers and new-to-the-subject readers.

    China is run by engineers. Ask any engineer how they feel about falsified figures. The notion drives them nuts.

    Besides, we DO have evidence to back up the figures: the WTO (which measures every country’s exims) backs them up –so their trade figures are obviously kosher.

    And the average Chinese HAS been doubling his wages every decade for the past forty years. The ILO – and American-dominated agency – will attest to that.

    The their GDP IS the biggest in the world by far, and growing exponentially. And as anyone who travels outside Beijing and Shanghai will tell you, 90% of transactions, including buying apartments, is done in cash. China’s GDP is at least 15% understated.

    The CIA has apparently fallen for those bogus figures:

    China: $19,510,000,000,000,000.
    European Union: $19,180,000,000.
    United States: $17,970,000,000
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

    And a glimpse of bigger figures to come: $123,000,000,000,000: China’s estimated economy by the year 2040. Foreign Policy. http://foreignpolicy.com/2010/01/04/123000000000000/

  158. @Laowai234

    Erm, Confucianism is far more radical than Marxism, if you spend some time investigating Master Kong’s dàtóng society:

    Now to have states, families, and selves is to allow each individual to maintain a sphere of selfishness. This infracts utterly the Universal Principle, gongli, and impedes progress..Therefore, not only should states be abolished–so that there would be no more struggle between the strong and the weak–but families should be done away with, too, so that there would no longer be inequality of love and affection among men. Finally, selfishness itself should be banished, so that goods and services would not be used for private ends..for the only true way is sharing the world by all alike, tienxia weigong. To share everything is to treat each and every one alike: there should be no distinction between high and low, no discrepancy between rich and poor, no segregation of human races, no inequality between sexes..All should be educated and supported with the common property; none should depend on private possession..This is the way of the Great Community, dàtóng, which prevailed in the Age of Universal Peace.

    Having achieved xiaokang in 2021, China will shoot for dàtóng by 2121. Everybody’s on the bus. No-one left behind.

  159. @Curious

    My copy of Meisner is out on loan so I cannot give you his footnotes. Here’s a quote from him, though, and I’ll look for his sources for it:

    Despite all the failings and setbacks, it is an inescapable historical conclusion that the Maoist era was the time of China’s modern industrial revolution.

    Starting with an industrial base smaller than that of Belgium’s in the early 1950s, the China that for so long was ridiculed as “the sick man of Asia” emerged at the end of the Mao period as one of the six largest industrial producers in the world.

    National income grew five-fold over the 25-year period 1952-4978, increasing from 60 billion to over 300 billion yuan, with industry accounting for most of the growth. On a per capita basis, the index of national income (at constant prices) increased from 100 in 1949 (and 160 in 1952) to 217 in 1957 and 440 in 1978.

    Over the last two decades of the Maoist era, from 1957 to 1975 (a period held in low esteem by Mao’s successors), even taking into account the economic disasters of the Great Leap, China’s national income increased by 63 percent on a per capita basis during this period of rapid population growth, more than doubling overall.”

    The Maoist economic record, however flawed, is nonetheless the record of an era when the basic foundations for modern industrialism were laid. Indeed, it is a record that compares favorably with comparable stages in the industrialization of Germany, Japan, and Russia—hitherto the most economically successful cases (among major countries of late modernization.

    In Germany the rate of economic growth 1880-1914 was 33 percent per decade.

    In Japan from 1874-1929 the rate of increase per decade was 43 percent.

    The Soviet Union over the period 1928-58 achieved a decadal increase of 54 percent.

    In China over the years 1952-72 the decadal rate was 64 percent.

    This was hardly economic development at “a snail’s pace,” as foreign journalists persist in misinforming their readers.

    This economic achievement was all the more remarkable in that it was accomplished by the Chinese people themselves on the basis of their own meager material resources, with little outside assistance or support.

    Save for limited Soviet aid in the 1950s, which was repaid in full (and with interest) by the mid-1960s, Maoist industrialization proceeded without benefit of foreign loans or investments.

    It was as much a hostile international environment as the once hallowed principle of “self-reliance” that imposed conditions of virtual autarky until the late 1970s.

    At the close of the Maoist era, China was unique among developing countries in being able to claim an economy burdened by neither foreign debt nor internal inflation.

    Although it has become unfashionable to recall the accomplishments of Mao’s time, it remains the case that the Maoist regime made immense progress in bringing about China’s modern industrial transformation, and it did so under adverse internal and external conditions. Without the industrial revolution of the Mao era, the economic reformers who rose to prominence in the post-Mao era would have had little to reform.

    The higher yields obtained on individual family farms during later years would not have been possible without the vast irrigation and flood-control projects–dams, irrigation works and river dikes–constructed by collectivized peasants in the 1950s and 1960s.. By some key social and demographic indicators, China compared favorably even with middle income countries whose per capita GDP was five times greater”.

    –Mao Zedong: A Political and Intellectual Portrait 1st Edition, by Maurice Meisner

    And a few notes:

    In 1949, hundreds of millions of Chinese, whose lives had been catastrophically dislocated by a century of war, required miraculous increases of food and goods merely to survive.

    Mao knew that Britain’s agrarian revolution in the sixteenth century and her Industrial Revolution in the eighteenth had miraculously improved food and goods production–but that they lasted two hundred years and brought misery, bloodshed and catastrophic dislocation for the common people. With China under constant threat of attack and with little bloodshed, Mao accomplished both revolutions (and one of his own) in a single generation, retained the trust of the people, improved the lives of those he dislocated, liberated more peasants and more women than all other liberators in history and briefly established a primitive dàtóng society. John King Fairbank[3] said, “The simple facts of Mao’s career seem incredible: in a vast land of 400 million people, at age 28, with a dozen others, to found a party and in the next fifty years to win power, organize, and remold the people and reshape the land–history records no greater achievement. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, all the kings of Europe, Napoleon, Bismarck, Lenin–no predecessor can equal Mao Tse-tung’s scope of accomplishment, for no other country was ever so ancient and so big as China. Indeed Mao’s achievement is almost beyond our comprehension”.

    Mao first turned to feeding hundreds of millions of semi-starving people by tripling the country’s arable land with massive irrigation projects, as Meisner explains, “The higher yields obtained on individual family farms during later years would not have been possible without the vast irrigation and flood-control projects–dams, irrigation works and river dikes–constructed by collectivized peasants in the 1950s and 1960s.. By some key social and demographic indicators, China compared favorably even with middle income countries whose per capita GDP was five times greater”.

    By 1974 China was producing jet aircraft, locomotives, oceangoing ships, ICBMs, hydrogen bombs and satellites and Mao had reunited, reimagined, reformed and revitalized the largest, oldest civilization on earth, modernized it after a century of failed modernizations, liberated more women than anyone in history and ended thousands of years of famine. Despite the West’s crushing, twenty-five year embargo on food, finance, technology, medical and agricultural equipment and exclusion from the family of nations, Mao had banished the invaders, bandits and warlords, eliminated serious crime and drug addiction, doubled the population and its life expectancy, raised literacy to eighty-four percent, liberated China’s women, educated its girls, erased wealth disparity, restored the infrastructure, kept China debt-free, grown the economy twice as fast as America’s–and started two revolutions of his own choosing.

    [3] John King Fairbank , The United States and China

  160. @last straw

    Unit 731? What happy, happy days!

    IT seems like just yesterday that Unit 731, the notorious germ warfare unit of the Imperial Japanese Army was conducting horrific lethal experiments on Chinese civilians and Allied prisoners of war before and during World War II.

    Now it’s back in the news again after the Japanese government released the names of more than 3,000 of its former members. The unit is little known in either Japan or the United States; what’s even less known is that rather than punish its members, US authorities during the postwar occupation of Japan paid them millions of dollars to share knowledge gained from, among other crimes, dissecting live POWs and killing hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians by aerial spraying of bubonic plague and other deadly diseases.

    Formed in 1935 in Japanese-occupied Harbin, China, Unit 731 was led by Gen. Shiro Ishii, a surgeon and microbiologist. Between the local population and captured Chinese, Soviet and some Western prisoners of war, Unit 731 and affiliated outfits had plenty of human guinea pigs, or “logs,” as they were euphemistically called, for experimentation. Japanese doctors and scientists were drawn to the unit for the rare opportunity to perform human experiments; some even published their research in peer-reviewed journals, referring to victims as “Manchurian monkeys” to avoid backlash – although body temperatures recorded in their research left no doubt that the doomed test subjects were no monkeys.

    No, they were men, women and children of all ages, thousands of whom were dissected alive, often without anesthesia. Victims were infected with deadly diseases, had limbs amputated and sometimes reattached to the wrong side of their bodies, were exposed to lethally cold temperatures and subjected to flamethrower and bomb testing. Others were injected with animal blood, spun to death in centrifuges, killed in pressure chambers, exposed to lethal radiation doses and burned or buried alive. Many women and girls were raped and forced to become pregnant so researchers could vivisect them and their unborn fetuses. Unit 731 members contaminated a thousand wells in Harbin with typhoid, sprayed plague-infested fleas from airplanes and fed anthrax-dosed chocolates to hungry children.

    Western POWs, including American airmen shot down during or after bombing runs over Japan and territories it occupied, were also subjected to vivisection and other horrific experiments. In one of the last such atrocities of the war, nine captured US airmen had various organs removed and were pumped full of salt water by members of Unit 100, which was affiliated with Unit 731, at Kyushu University in May 1945.

    “The prisoners thought we were doctors,” recalled Dr. Toshio Tono, then a medical assistant who helped kill the Americans. “They could see our white smocks so they didn’t struggle. They never dreamed they would be dissected.”

    Some of the airmen had their lungs removed to study the effects of surgery on the respiratory system. Another had his skull drilled and partially removed to determine if epilepsy could be treated by excising part of the brain. Not only were the prisoners dissected, it was alleged at a later war crimes trial that Japanese officers had eaten the livers of some of the Americans – something that had already happened at Chichi Jima island a year earlier, where at least four downed US pilots were cannibalized and future president George H.W. Bush narrowly escaped becoming dinner himself.

    As Japanese commanders realized defeat was imminent, Unit 731 members went to great lengths to cover their crimes, including the attempted destruction of facilities and evidence and the extermination of all surviving prisoners. Although Ishii ordered members “to take the secret to the grave,” his outlook changed when he and others found themselves facing war crimes charges after the war. Not only did Supreme Allied Commander Gen. Douglas MacArthur secretly grant immunity to Unit 731 members, including Ishii, the US also paid them millions of dollars in exchange for their knowledge and cooperation. Immunity was justified on national security grounds; US officials feared the Soviet Union – which actually tried 12 captured members of Unit 731 but also apparently traded leniency for data – would gain a dangerous edge in biowarfare capability if it had access to Japanese personnel or research results.

    US treatment of Unit 731 members mirrored the leniency shown to leading Nazi war criminals, including doctors and scientists who performed on Jews and others experiments every bit as horrific as their Japanese counterparts. Too “moral” to conduct such ghastly research on its own, the United States embraced defeated German and Japanese doctors who intentionally drowned, gassed, suffocated, froze, burned, poisoned, infected, shot, stabbed and dissected living men, women and children to death to advance its own weapons of mass destruction programs. Sleeping with such enemies certainly birthed such great successes as better jet fighters and the Apollo moon landings, however, within a few short years it also produced more sinister offspring such as the mind control experiments of projects Bluebird, Artichoke and MK-ULTRA, and the aerial spraying of chemical and biowarfare agents over both America’s enemies as well as its own cities, military personnel and even its children.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  161. @DESERT FOX

    Read this then give us your reasons for saying that Mao’s great leap forward was one of the worst human holocausts in history:

    http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  162. @Godfree Roberts

    Go to henrymakow.com and in the archives read the articles of Mao and by the way anyone who defends one of the worst murderers in history has got to be a communist.

  163. denk says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    To be more precise,
    its a 5liars curse ….they’ve always been the hardcore ring leader of ENA,

    Opium war,

    Eight nations alliance,

    BUrning of Yuan Ming Yuen,

    1950-1970
    Total embargo, including food stuff, medicine.
    China had yet to recover from 10 years of civil war and 8 years fighting off the jap invasion, that’s like kicking a man while he’s down, they wanted China dead from day one.

    1959
    Tibet,

    1962
    Indo/sino war,

    1965 Indon genocide, against ethnic Chinese

    1989
    TAM failed color rev, demonisation and sanction until this very day.

    1998 Indon pogrom against ethnic Chinese

    1999, Yugo Chinese embassy bombing,
    3 and 1/2 dead,

    2001 Hainan spy plane,

    2003 SARS

    2008 Tibet,

    2009 Xinjiang bloodbath,

    2013 Asia pivot,

    2014 HK

    2019 HK,

    2019 Xinjiang

    2019 economic warfare, global Chinese exclusion Act.
    ———————————-

    ‘KOREA’

    refer to http://www.unz.com/article/china-trade-war-americas-policy-dilemma/#comment-3333610

    ‘South America’

    The Monroe doctrine.
    SA have been groaning under murikkan tyranny for centuries.
    Once, There was hope when nationalist leaders like Chavez were sweeping the polls all over SA, BUt you just can put a good man down for long, I mean uncle scam, Chavez was bumped off, Venezuela is being strangled ., Brazil, Arentina are now run by US puppets.
    Its back to the dark age for SA.

  164. MEFOBILLS says:
    @FB

    Yet we still have brainless dolts like onebornSTUPID preaching the ideology of the billionaire class…while not having a pot to piss in…

    Lolbertarian ideology is dangerous… it ensares the youth and clothes itself in moral righteousness.

    But, actual evidence is that it is immoral, and is hypnosis emitted by the money powers. It leads to a cul-de-sac, where people don’t have a pot to piss in, and they never look up at their slave masters.

    People that get caught up in lolbertarianism cannot let go of a lifetime of learning – they will not admit to being a dupe.

    These sort of people have to die off, or they will only change their way of thinking under extreme life threatening stress. The human animal is deficient, many cannot learn.

  165. Vidi says:

    Go to henrymakow.com and in the archives read the articles of Mao

    I asked for credible evidence for your assertion (that Mao killed 50 million people), not some paranoid rants by someone who believes the Rothschilds murdered at least seven US presidents (link). I assume that your assertion is of the same level of “quality”.

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  166. denk says:
    @MEFOBILLS

    I did say the ENA whities often fought amongst themselves, due to conflict of interest.

    But they always hunt together ,
    , which explains this long streak of
    Pax murikkan/Brittanica

    Blood thicker than water

    That’s the 5liars, always stick together.
    They were on the same side in ww1, ww2.

    They’r the ring leader of the ENA,
    Chinese natural enemy since the Opium war.

    Exhibit A

    They’r leading the color rev in HK,

    Exhibit B
    they’r behind the Xinjiang smear campaign.

    Exhibit C
    Global Chinese exclusion Act ,
    a family venture,

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/12/14/huaw-d14.html

    But, with regards to blood, nations have the right to be sovereign, and to protect their citizens. A single race country is always more stable than a multicultural multi racial country.

    I know what you mean,
    might even empathy with this sentiment , except….

    When some of the murikkan WTS here give lecture on the sanctity of border .nearly make me spit out my
    coffee. !

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
    , @MEFOBILLS
  167. denk says:
    @Agent76

    I’ve explained to this character several times,

    CU = NDTV = Falun Gong = CIA,

    Yet disinfoagent76 still show his
    defiance , swearing by the CU, a CIA front citing the CIA. !

    jUST like another imbecile, desertfox, [please dont insult Rommel] , who smugly declares..

    I dont need no fucking evidence, I stand by my accusation

    [sic]

    Congrats , you two just pass the psychopath test.

  168. denk says:
    @AmRusDebate

    iS this critter a refugee from the asylum ?
    Why do so many murikkans behaving like lunatics ?

    They say in murikka, the inmates are running the asylum. ., whaddya say ?

  169. denk says:
    @denk

    I dont want any misunderstanding, Im thinking of WTS like warmountainblair, who advocates the revival of Chinese exclusion Act, well he’s behind the curve, Tptb is mounting a gawd damn global CEA no less !

    Recently he rant about the need to defend the sacred border against the hordes of chicoms, coming from a country that’s invaded hundreds of sovereign countries
    since ww2, thats really ROTLMAO !

  170. denk says:
    @denk

    empathise…

    Im of the old English school type, [sic],
    never like z !

  171. MEFOBILLS says:
    @denk

    DENK,

    You are conflating.

    This notion of expansion and imperialism is driven entirely by prices and money.

    As soon as a nation adopts the construct of BOE Atlantacism, then imperialism is a foregone conclusion.

    This construct popped into the history of man in 1694. It is the first debt spreading corporate nation, where “international finance” calls the shots. They work behind the scenes pulling strings, and making whole nations malfunction.

    Fascist Italy, Nationalist Germany and Imperial Japan all pulled away from this model. For a time, both Canada and Australia had this model, which I call industrial capitalism. (Which is its exact name.)

    It comes in many guises, but in all cases the politics are over the hidden powers, and for the most part, the people of the country do not want war, or to go around beating up others.

    For example, no average american wanted anything to do with any wars after 1890, but they were dragged into it, because in America the political class does not respond to its electorate. The political class responds to its donors.

    Even the immigration of third world people into America is a function of this construct, which is to lower wages… to take wage arbitrage on the life energy of the immigrant, and to cost shift onto the middle class.

    The insecurities this engenders are: Border/Economic/Cultural.

    These insecurities are driving nationalist populist movements everywhere.

    I find your analysis flawed, as you are attributing too much to race, or malice on the part of white men. That said, there are racial differences as is well known by HBD science.

    By the way, this construct of money and prices becoming man’s god, with debt holders being god’s minions, is a Jewish construct, not a white man thing.

    That shabbos goys have adopted the construct, is a legitimate gripe.

    • Replies: @denk
  172. @Vidi

    Hows the weather in Tel Aviv,

    • Replies: @Vidi
  173. @denk

    To be more precise,
    its a 5liars curse ….they’ve always been the hardcore ring leader of ENA

    Even so, that does not fully explain the PRC’s problems concerning its neighbors and regional rivals, much of which can be traced back centuries before the arrival, much less the existence, of the English and Americans.

    KOREA

    Your comment in that other thread makes some questionable assertions, among the most glaring was your designation of Park Chung-hee as a “panda hugger”. In fact, this former officer of the Manshūkoku Imperial Army and Imperial Japanese Army was often criticized in life as well as in death for being too pro-Japanese; the RoK’s foreign policy during his rule was not helpful for the PRC, to say the least.

    The Monroe doctrine.
    SA have been groaning under murikkan tyranny for centuries.
    Once, There was hope when nationalist leaders like Chavez were sweeping the polls all over SA, BUt you just can put a good man down for long, I mean uncle scam, Chavez was bumped off, Venezuela is being strangled ., Brazil, Arentina are now run by US puppets.
    Its back to the dark age for SA.

    Yes and no. American influence has indeed been a deleterious one for South America. The problem, however, has also been exacerbated by generations of homegrown mismanagement and oligarchal banditry. Argentina was at the beginning of the 20th century the 5th or 6th wealthiest country in the world. A century of internecine bickering and succession of megalomaniacal leaders—little of which had anything to do with the US and often was unhelpful to American interests—has led to today’s populace living under the crumbling shadows of its former glory, with those who are able to fleeing for the US, Spain, or its neighbor and historical rival, Chile, which now enjoys the highest standard of living in the Spanish-speaking Americas.

    Chile’s result, incidentally, has little to do with US support. Among South American nations it was, thanks to the efforts of Diego Portales (a noted skeptic of Anglo intrusions), the only one to establish a lasting, competent bureaucracy and respect for the rule of law. Its relative geographic isolation kept it insulated from meddling from the US for much of its history, as well as conflicts from its neighbors.

    Aside from Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, and Uruguay have fared well in the past twenty years, sometimes with leaders who were anti-US. Brazil and Argentina are on the cusp of a dark age, certainly, but that has more to do with structural problems that extend back generations and which have no easy solutions, rather than from its leaders currying favor from the American Empire.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @denk
    , @Gammaray
  174. DB Cooper says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    What is so disgusting about the whole thing is that there is not an ounce of remorse shown by the Japanese. Shit face Shinzo Abe is very proud of Unit 731, so proud that he posed sitting in an aircraft with a large decal with the number 731

    http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2971580

  175. @DB Cooper

    Abe Shinzō is indeed worthless scum. But the article to which you linked to—like nearly all Korean reportage on anything, especially Japan—is long on emotionality and hysteria, short on reason and facts.

    Chinese-based media sometimes teeters into this, too, and understandably so; but on the whole they behave with far more sobriety and rectitude vis à vis Japan than the sempiternally ululating Koreans.

  176. Vidi says:
    @DESERT FOX

    Hows the weather in Tel Aviv,

    (That was your complete reply.)

    In other words, you haven’t any credible evidence for your assertion (that Mao killed 50 million people), and you’re not honest enough to admit it.

  177. Vidi says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Even so, that does not fully explain the PRC’s problems concerning its neighbors and regional rivals, much of which can be traced back centuries before the arrival, much less the existence, of the English and Americans.

    This is Malaysia’s attitude on China: “If you remember once European was very powerful and they conquered the rest of the world. China has yet to conquer us and we have been trading with them for 2,000 years” (link).

    (The website, pmo.gov.my, appears to be the official voice of the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir Mohamed.)

    China has never conquered Indonesia or the Phillipines either.

    So your picture of an aggressive and expansionist China is contradicted by history — at least in most regions of Asia.

    Your comment in that other thread makes some questionable assertions, among the most glaring was your designation of Park Chung-hee as a “panda hugger”. In fact, this former officer of the Manshūkoku Imperial Army and Imperial Japanese Army was often criticized in life as well as in death for being too pro-Japanese; the RoK’s foreign policy during his rule was not helpful for the PRC, to say the least.

    At least Park Chung-hee initiated diplomatic relations with mainland China, ending decades of hostility. I would say that was a major achievement for Park and South Korea.

  178. Malla says:
    @Agent76

    Communist China was a Rockefellar Project from the very start.

  179. @DESERT FOX

    I went there and found articles like this, “Why The Illuminati Burned Notre Dame.”

    Henry is a nutter. If you want to discuss Mao, read stuff that has supporting documentation and stats, like these:http://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/
    http://www.unz.com/article/the-great-proletarian-cultural-revolution/

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  180. denk says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    your designation of Park Chung-hee as a “panda hugger

    YOu misread, that’s Park Chung Hue,

    But of course, silly me , I mean Park Chun Hue, that panda hugger…
    http://www.unz.com/ishamir/the-korean-summit/#comment-2313732
    Been bugging me, the name doesnt sound right, Park Chung Hee was mdm Park’s father, bumped off by CIA coz he wanted SK to go nuclear.

    Getting senile perhaps, too much late night aint doing me any good. Been doing this since the attack on ex Yugo, when antiwar.com introduced me to the world of geopolitics….RIP, Justin Raimondo.

    All these mid night oil , a fat lot of good it does, murikkan aint getting any wiser, worse still, they dont seem to wanna get wiser, after being fed B.S. since birth, they’d rather wallow in blissful ignorance.

    Im knackered, may be time to quit. 😉

  181. @Godfree Roberts

    Henry Makow speaks about subjects that communists like you have not got the guts to approach, and if you had done a search on his site of Mao, you would have found proof of one of the bloodiest butchers in history.

  182. Vidi says:

    Henry Makow speaks about subjects that communists like you have not got the guts to approach, and if you had done a search on his site of Mao, you would have found proof of one of the bloodiest butchers in history.

    In other words, you made a serious and false assertion (that Mao killed 50 million people) and you want others to prove it for you. Dishonest and lazy — that is you.

  183. denk says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Vietnam, Malaysia, and the Philippines may not be “isolating” the PRC explicitly, but have been goading other more powerful countries to serve as counterbalances.

    Thats’ the official story.

    In reality…

    When the murikkans tried to sneak into Malacca straits via the fraudulent wot pretext, DPM Najib told them to fuck off, he’d been in US cross hair ever
    since.
    https://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia-puts-us-in-its-place-over-offer-to-police-busy-sea-lane-20040406-gdioic.html

    Mahithir needs no introduction…
    https://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2005/09/2008410163054598904.html

    He knows too well who’s that wolf in sheep’s skin..
    http://www.unz.com/article/china-trade-war-americas-policy-dilemma/#comment-3333952

    Then there’s that tribunal in KL 2013, which indicted Bush, Blair as war criminals.

    Now you know why Malaysia lost three airliners within six months in 2014 !

    Ian Fleming’s law of probability….
    Once is happenance, twic is coincidence, thrice……..

  184. denk says:
    @DESERT FOX

    wHATS this equal opportunity blame B,.S ?

    fukus are the world’s no1 terrorists states

    no shit, Sherlock !.

    But how does it prove ‘Mao the mass murderer’ ?

    ‘purge [sic] on humanity’

    Speak for yourself, you dont speak for the world.
    To hell with your murikkan exceptionalism !

  185. denk says:
    @DESERT FOX

    Go to henrymakow.com and in the archives read the articles of Mao

    I’ still see no evidence.

    ‘ and by the way anyone who defends one of the worst murderers in history has got to be a communist.’

    The only known and certified mass murderers are the 5liars.
    They have collectively killed at least 30M
    civilians since ww2, you wouldnt call them commie would you ?

  186. Gammaray says:
    @Anonymous

    Honestly im not really sure about this meme. All of the chinese tourists/immigrants I have ever met have been polite, quite and unremarkable. Nothing about them stands out as particularly bad. I’m sure there are some bad eggs out there, but out of the vast number of chinese tourists/immigrants I have met in my life, none of them were rude or impolite.

  187. Gammaray says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Even so, that does not fully explain the PRC’s problems concerning its neighbors and regional rivals, much of which can be traced back centuries before the arrival, much less the existence, of the English and Americans.

    I find most of what youve written in the comments section about china to be really disingenuous. If you dislike china then just be straightforward about it, stop trying to act like you’re an honest broker when you continue to write nonsense like this.

    The fact of the matter is, nearly all of china’s regional neighbors still possess their own ethnic and cultural integrity even after thousands of years of being china’s neighbor. This speaks volumes about the character of chinese civilization; I can absolutely guarantee you that if england or america had historically occupied the same space as china then we would know next to nothing about cultures like korea or japan and this is because the original inhabitants of those countries would have already been marginalized, displaced and replaced. You and I both know this is true, so why bother exaggerating the degree to which china has problems with its neighbors?

  188. Gammaray says:
    @DESERT FOX

    I love conspiracy oriented websites and there are many that have good, factual material in them; however henrymakow.com is not one of them. A lot of what he writes is fringe in every sense of the word. He is hardly a credible source and you damage your own credibility by citing him.

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  189. Gammaray says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    For example, while Mao’s prediction quoted at the head of this article would ultimately prove him to be correct, it also must be admitted that this result occurred largely in spite of him and his policies. Had the immediate postwar PRC instead been stewarded by sober bureaucrats like Meiji Japan had in Matsukata Masayoshi or Katō Tadaaki, then the PRC may very well have achieved its economic/military potential far sooner, in all likelihood surpassing the US well before the end of the 20th century. That this did not occur can only be blamed on the ineptitude and paranoid megalomania of Mao. That the author glosses over this irrefutable historical fact ought to immediately indicate to a careful reader that this essay’s truths and insights, valuable though they are, lay in a minefield of half-truths.

    While this doesnt directly concern mao, I think something that a lot of people don’t realize is that china’s disastrous experiments with things like the great leap forward and the cultural revolution have effectively immunized modern day china (and its ruling class) against any kind of ideological lunacy. Stuff like extreme SJWism will never take off in china due to the chinese people already having been burnt by ideological extremism. In this regards china has already paid its dues, the US on the other hand never really dealt with ideological experiments to the same degree that china did, as a result they are not adequately immunized against “ideological mindviruses” like the chinese are and the results speak for themselves. Its entirely possible that had china not gone through things like the great leap forward then they would have been more prone to making boneheaded ideological maneuvers later on down the road where the stakes would have been much higher. So its better for the china that they got it out of their system relatively early.

    That being said, when it comes to china’s two ill-fated ideological experiments; I do think that the cultural revolution had some unique value of its own. There is no doubt in my mind that there were parts of chinese culture which were holding the modernization of china back and it was precisely the cultural revolution itself which helped remove or weaken these cultural impediments.

  190. Patricus says:

    Godfree,

    Really appreciate that you respond to comments. Make a good article great!

  191. @Gammaray

    Makow is credible and has the guts to tackle subjects that others will not touch and here are some more excellent sites; rense.com, whatreallyhappened.com, rumormillnews.com, darkmoon.me, trunews.com, zerohedge.com, southfront.org, abeldanger.org, stevequayle.com, etc., etc..

  192. @Malla

    So your picture of an aggressive and expansionist China is contradicted by history — at least in most regions of Asia.

    I never said nor implied such a thing. Rather, I was stating that the PRC has to grapple with various formidable and conflicting rivalries and historical resentments in its region of the world.

    At least Park Chung-hee initiated diplomatic relations with mainland China, ending decades of hostility. I would say that was a major achievement for Park and South Korea.

    Yes, but no formal recognition until 1992. By that point Japan, historically antagonistic to Chinese interests, had recognized the PRC for 20 years. They would have done so even sooner had the US not threatened them with permanent seizure of Okinawa Prefecture. Anti-PRC sentiment, to say nothing of paranoia over its neighbors, runs strong in the RoK, causing the oscillating diplomatic policies I mentioned earlier. Japan, occasional visits by its prime ministers to Yasukuni jinja notwithstanding, has been a far more reliable and stable partner.

  193. @denk

    Now you know why Malaysia lost three airliners within six months in 2014 !

    Ian Fleming’s law of probability….
    Once is happenance, twic is coincidence, thrice……..

    I’m with you on that one.

    • Replies: @denk
  194. @Gammaray

    While this doesnt directly concern mao, I think something that a lot of people don’t realize is that china’s disastrous experiments with things like the great leap forward and the cultural revolution have effectively immunized modern day china (and its ruling class) against any kind of ideological lunacy. Stuff like extreme SJWism will never take off in china due to the chinese people already having been burnt by ideological extremism. In this regards china has already paid its dues, the US on the other hand never really dealt with ideological experiments to the same degree that china did, as a result they are not adequately immunized against “ideological mindviruses” like the chinese are and the results speak for themselves.

    An excellent point! I completely agree. The PRC has undoubtedly turned its Mao experience into what the SJW crowd would call a “teaching moment”. Having suffered from the excesses of runaway ideological fanaticism, the CPC has sagely learned to temper the public’s emotions, occasionally allowing them to vent, but on the whole exercising a healthy measure of control. Personally, this is one of the aspects in which a PRC-led world could be beneficial, even healing for the West.

    That being said, when it comes to china’s two ill-fated ideological experiments; I do think that the cultural revolution had some unique value of its own. There is no doubt in my mind that there were parts of chinese culture which were holding the modernization of china back and it was precisely the cultural revolution itself which helped remove or weaken these cultural impediments.

    Another good point. Had honestly not considered that angle before.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  195. @denk

    Do you think the loss of three Malaysian aircraft was connected to Mahathir’s hosting the International Tribunal on War Crimes in Iraq?

    The one that convicted Bush and Blair for war crimes?

    Probably a coincidence..

    • Agree: Vidi
    • Replies: @denk
  196. @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    Mao himself agreed with you: “We rushed into a great catastrophe. The communes were organized too quickly. The Great Leap has been a partial failure for which we have paid a high price. The chaos was on a grand scale and I take responsibility for it..The transition to a dàtóng society might take longer than I had envisaged, perhaps as many as twenty Five Year Plans, but the drive to attain it should never be abandoned.”

    Having lost his colleagues’ support Mao declined to stand for re-election observing, “If you can’t handle being impeached by the Party you are not Party material.”

    He moped for a year, complaining that officials treated him “like a dead ancestor at my own funeral.”

    His successor, Liu Shaoqi, canceled the Five Year Plan, attributing seventy percent of the Great Leap’s problems to human (Mao) error and thirty percent to natural disaster.

    Thenceforth, he said, policies should rely on material incentives and never on idealistic, unplanned, mass mobilization (a resolve he would soon break).

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  197. denk says:
    @Nicolás Palacios Navarro

    The Malaysians know whats going on….

    Mahathir

    ‘CIA knows what happened to mh370’

    https://www.news.com.au/world/malaysia-airlines-mh370-mystery-is-in-the-hands-of-the-cia-says-former-pm-dr-mahathir-mohamad/news-story/c3d24c3dc77844ea11a492efbdeae585

    Najib

    ‘ “[T]here may be those who were attempting to drive a wedge between us and China.’

    That’s my first thought when news broke that a Malaysian airliner with 250 Chinese nationals onboard ‘disappeared in thin air’ in SCS.

  198. denk says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    While its mh370/mh17 that grabbed all the headlines during 2014, not many were aware there’s a third plane, Airasia 8501 which plunged into the Java sea, some reports claimed explosion in mid air.

    Even less know a copter with Najib’s PA onboard exploded in midair and plunged into the Java sea.
    Did Najib narrowly escaped an attempt on his life ?

    Ian Fleming’s fundamental law of probability….——

    • Replies: @denk
  199. denk says:

    Gene Sharp’s swarming adolecents,
    HK chapter, part 2

    Looks like CIA/MI6 man on the ground has been exposed, he and many other gweilos have been openly directing, goading the swarming adolescents in ever more violent provocations against the police.

    If it looks like a thug, walks like a thug…….

    https://www.greanvillepost.com/2019/07/08/confucius-laozi-and-buddha-are-humbly-winning-against-the-imperial-west-in-troubled-hong-kong/

  200. denk says:
    @denk

    oops,
    that copter didnt ‘plunged into the Java sea’.

  201. DB Cooper says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    “His successor, Liu Shaoqi, canceled the Five Year Plan, attributing seventy percent of the Great Leap’s problems to human (Mao) error and thirty percent to natural disaster. ”

    And for that he paid a terrible price. Mao hold a huge grudge on him and once he maneuvered himself back to power he was denounced as ‘capitalist roader’ and was beaten up and humiliated by the red guards on many ‘struggle lessons’ and held in solitary confinement under deliberately harsh condition and died without any clothes on. And so was the straight talking Peng Dehai, He Long…etc. all was tortured to death by Mao’s henchman. Zhao Enlai fared much better. He was always careful not to offend Mao in any shape or form and died a natural death. Only that he was diagnosis with a treatable cancer but was denied treatment by Mao to ensure he died first before Mao did.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Godfree Roberts
  202. Vidi says:
    @DB Cooper

    Only that [Zhou Enlai] was diagnosis with a treatable cancer but was denied treatment by Mao to ensure he died first before Mao did.

    That is a lie, likely spread by dishonest Taiwanese and Western media.

    Zhou had bladder cancer (link), which was nearly always fatal in 1976, when he died. The only “treatments” available then were radiation (radium) and surgery, of very low effectiveness.

    Today, the cancer is somewhat treatable, but the mortality rate, even with extensive modern chemotherapy, is still 23% (link).

    The vicious lie, of course, is to suggest that an illness which is somewhat treatable today was reliably treatable four decades ago — and that Mao deliberately killed his friend.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  203. DB Cooper says:

    “That is a lie, likely spread by dishonest Taiwanese and Western media.”

    And you know? How? Are you Zhou’s doctor?

    “… and that Mao deliberately killed his friend.”

    This line just show that you are totally clueless. Ignorance is bliss. What can I say.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  204. @DB Cooper

    Do you have evidence or proof that Liu was denounced as ‘capitalist roader’ and was beaten up and humiliated by the red guards on many ‘struggle lessons’ and held in solitary confinement under deliberately harsh condition and died without any clothes on?

    Or that Peng Dehai, He Long…etc. all was tortured to death by Mao’s henchman?

    Mao forbade political violence in 1937 and was profoundly allergic to violence all his life. So I find your claims curious, to say the least

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
    , @DB Cooper
  205. @Godfree Roberts

    You are a radical communist, to say that Mao was against violence is like saying that Jack the Ripper was against violence, you are a liar and a communist.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  206. DB Cooper says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    This is common knowledge of people of that generation who paid attention to this stuff. I have seen footage and pictures of Liu and Peng been humiliated by a bunch of red guards. Note that this king of action was very politically correct in that era and newspaper like the People’s Daily..etc. will no doubt proudly reported about it. Large US universities usually collect foreign newspaper and archived them. What you can do is to go to these kind of universities and look at newspapers published by the PRC during those times. You need someone who can read Chinese to help you out of course. May be you can find it in youtube. Liu married many times and his last wife was also humiliated by forcing to wear fake jewelers by the red guards across her neck to mock her of not being a good Leninist Marist. I have seen this in pictures also. ‘Struggle sessions’ in which the accused were made to wear funny hats and kneel down with his/her arm stretched backward and held high at an angle (so called the aircraft position) in front a crowd of people that were worked to a frenzy were common during those times. May be you can find those in youtube also.

    He Long was a Tujia ethnicity and his hometown was very close to Zhangjiajie, a newly developed tourist area famous for its vertical Karst formation. I have visited Zhangjiajie park and the locals have erected a stature of He Long in his memory in the park. They are I am sure very proud of him being one of the founders of the new China. When I was there my local guide who is a Tujia told us about what He Long went through in a matter of factly manner. Of course I have already heard about it before he told me about it. You should visit Zhangjiajie, it is a very scenic area and you can talk to the locals and do some field works yourself since you are so interested in China.

  207. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper

    When I visited Zhangjiajie I have to walk the steps to the peak. If you go there now you can ride cable cars and elevators straight up to the top of the mountain. Go there on a non-holiday to avoid the crowd of people.

    Liu’s was also a Hunanese. He, like so many others, has been posthumously re-habituated (平反) after Deng came to power. I remember one time I was on a highway and there was a road sign saying some city, the hometown of Liu Shaoqi. You should do a field trip there and talk to the locals about what happened to Liu. This is not a sensitive subject anymore and I am sure the locals will be happy to talk to you.

  208. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper

    If my memory serves me correct after Liu’s death his body was cremated and his ash cannot be placed in Babaoshan because he was a condemned man. Nobody at that time wants to have anything to do with Liu to avoid getting into trouble so his ash was lost. It was only many years after that his ash was discovered. I don’t know where his ash is now may be in Babaoshan.

  209. Vidi says:
    @DB Cooper

    And you know? How? Are you Zhou [Enlai]’s doctor?

    What I do know are the mortality rates for bladder cancer when the premier died (nearly 100%) and now (23%).

    You said that Zhou’s cancer was a treatable one, allowing the reader to infer that it was reliably treatable in 1976, when Zhou died. That was blatantly untrue. It was a lie — made more vicious when you added that Mao withheld treatment from Zhou, thus deliberately killing him.

    As I have mentioned before, you are a true slave of the Anglo Zionist empire. You even spread its lies willingly.

  210. @DESERT FOX

    The duration, scale, and savagery of Japanese war crimes had aroused international outrage and demands for vengeance rose from a million Chinese throats, yet he forbade retribution.
    Our policy towards prisoners captured from the Japanese, puppet, and anti-Communist troops is to set them all free except for those who have incurred the bitter hatred of the masses and must receive capital punishment and whose death sentence has been approved by the higher authorities. We should not insult them, take their personal effects or try to exact taxation from them but should, without exception, treat them sincerely and kindly. However reactionary they may be, this should be our policy.
    He approved the executions of 46 Japanese war criminals, pardoned and repatriated a million Japanese troops, dissuaded Japan’s puppet Chinese emperor, Pu Yi, from committing suicide, edited his memoirs and found the remorseful man a wife. His instructions[1] for re-establishing order were clear and compassionate:
    The principle is that those who owe blood debts or are guilty of extremely serious crimes and have to be executed to assuage the people’s anger and those who have caused extremely serious harm to the national interest must be unhesitatingly sentenced to death and executed without delay. As for those whose crimes deserve capital punishment but who owe no blood debts and are not bitterly hated by the people or who have done serious but not extremely serious harm to the national interest, the policy is to hand down the death sentence, grant a two-year reprieve and subject them to forced labour to see how they behave. What harm is there in not executing people? Those amenable to labour reform should go and do labour reform so that rubbish can be transformed into something useful. Remember, people’s heads are not like leeks. When you cut them off, they won’t grow again. If you cut off a head wrongly there is no way of rectifying the mistake even if you want to.
    William Sewell, then a Christian missionary in Western China wrote[2]:
    We knew from the papers that, in some parts of China where Land Reform had already taken place, there had been angry scenes and landlords had been beaten to death by the people or had killed themselves in fear. The Government realized that they had greatly underestimated the passions of the people when they were aroused; but now the cadres[3] were wiser and were present to see that matters did not get out of control. After the people had spoken, the landlords were either handed over to the police for trial or allowed to remain free, according to circumstance. Only those proven responsible for the death of a tenant combined with rape or for several deaths were legally liable for the death penalty.


    [1] Chairman Mao Talks To The People: Talks and Letters: 1956-1971 (The Pantheon Asia Library)
    [2] I stayed in China, – by William G Sewell 1966
    [3] Cadre: a small group of people specially trained for a particular purpose or profession: ‘a small cadre of scientists.’

  211. @DB Cooper

    Perhaps you’re confusing Chinese communism with its Russian cousin. They were and are very different animals, with very different roots.

    If you look hard enough you’ll find footage of both Xi and his father being humiliated by Red Guards, but there’s no evidence of the kind of violence you alleged, nor is it likely.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  212. DB Cooper says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Here are two sources for you. The first one is a speech given by none other than Xi on the commemoration of the 120th birthday of Liu. The speech is long and party pedantry aside one sentence is telling.

    “在“文化大革命”中,刘少奇同志遭到林彪、“四人帮”反革命集团的残酷迫害,不幸蒙冤致死。”

    It reads, “During the Cultural Revolution, comrade Liu was viscously tortured by Lin Biao and the Gang of Four, unfortunately till death with great injustice.”

    This is an official speech and as is expected every word and phrase is carefully considered to make sure it convey the right meaning. He is blaming Lin Biao and the Gang of Four. Yeah right. Those thugs were just henchmen (and henchwoman for Jiang Qing). Basically what it means is that Xi does not want or dare to touch Mao for so many reasons not least because doing so will open up a can of worms. Don’t get me wrong, I have high regards for Xi and he is doing a great job, but on this issue he is dancing around because he doesn’t want to go there.

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/leaders/2018-11/23/c_1123759269.htm

    The second one is an article on what happened to Liu, the title of the article is
    “国家主席的悲剧:刘少奇被整死时无衣遮体” which means “The tragedy of the chairman of a country : when Liu was tortured he did not have clothes on”.

    http://history.sohu.com/20150210/n408897519.shtml

    Both sources are from the PRC itself. The first one is from the Xin Hua news agency on a speech by Xi, can’t get any better than that. I don’t know whether google translation will do a good job. I suggest asking someone who is a Chinese reader to translate it for you.

  213. Malla says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    LOL The Western Governments should feel ashamed that a Communist country has lower government spending as % of GDP. The West is combining socialism and free market wrong all wrong.

  214. @DB Cooper

    Excellent! Thanks! That’s extremely important.

  215. @DB Cooper

    My resident scholar liked your translation and came back with: “During the Cultural Revolution, comrade Liu was viciously tortured by Lin Biao and the Gang of Four, acts that cruelly and unjustly killed him.”

    Good to see such matters being publicly discussed. People are very forgiving of governments that cop to their mistakes and crimes.

  216. @DB Cooper

    More on Lin Biao and (slippery) translation from another Chinese friend:

    While 残酷 can be “viciously” or “mercilessly”, 迫害 may be more “persecuted” than “tortured”.

    Also 蒙冤 may be more like “falsely accused”, “wrongly convicted”.

    Late at night on September 12, 1971, Lin Biao, Ye Qun and Lin Liguo received a secret report that Premier Zhou Enlai had been making inquiries about the special plane. Thereupon, they hurried to the Shanhaiguan Airport with Liu Peifeng and others, scrambled on to the plane and ordered it to start taxiing without waiting for the co-pilot, navigator and radio operator to board and the lights to be turned on. The aircraft took off at 00:32 hours on September 13 and crashed near Undur Khan in Mongolia, killing all those aboard.

    http://www.beijingreview.com.cn/50years/1980-48.pdf

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
  217. @Lo

    Who wants their people to convert to a cult of buggers.

    The Chinese are already buggers. Child molestation is a well-attested Chinese tradition.
    https://bookdome.com/health/Human-Sexuality/Boy-Prostitution-In-China.html#.XTp1B_mP-Uk
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/in-china-victims-of-pedophiles-are-called-underage-prostitutes_1368697.html

    • Replies: @Lin
  218. Lin says:
    @John K. Arate

    The Chinese are already buggers
    Apparently you want to be buggered by stupid propagandas.
    …..
    –That bookdome.com claim is on something ancient. Its like saying because the majority of ancient greeks had homo experience(and pederasty was common), so modern greeks must be all pedo rapists.
    –theepochtimes.com? I can see you want to validate the claims of cultists who said their honcho can fly and the latter said celeb magician david Copperfield’s ‘magics’ were real.

  219. DB Cooper says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Sorry for my late reply. I was off the grid until now. Not at all, you are very welcome! Yes you are right, 迫害 is more “persecuted” than “tortured”. I was actually not very satisfied with my translation but at the time I couldn’t come up with a better one and I thought “tortured” is probably close enough. But “persecuted” is a better translation.

    Thanks for the article. The rumors at the time about the Lin Biao’s plane clash was it was either shot down by a missile or ran out of gas, depending on what you believe.

  220. DB Cooper says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Also here are some factoids of the trial of the Gang of Four (四人帮)and the Ten Thugs (十恶) shown on the article. It was shown live on TV. If my memory serves me right none were given the death penalty or if any was it was all commuted to life sentences. Note that Deng personally suffered under Mao’s time. His eldest son was paralyzed because he jump off a multi-story building to escape the red guards. But Deng certainly wants China to move on instead of dwelling on the past to perpetuate the cycle of political violence. Deng was certainly not a vindictive person. Hugh credit to Deng.

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