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 Max Denken Archive
Bitter Tantrums and Buried History
The Current Holocaust Controversy Between Israel and Poland
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Part 1: The Tantrums

An Israeli and eventually international Jewish mass hysteria erupted as of the last week of January 2018 over a Polish law that makes it a punishable offence to defame the Polish nation by speaking of “Polish concentration camps” or blaming the Polish people otherwise for the Jewish Holocaust. The hysteria started right at the top with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who spoke of “attempts to rewrite history.” It moved downstream through figures like Israel’s ambassador to Poland Anna Azari, the politician Yair Lapid, and lower yet to species like Lahav Harkov, who tweets as “Knesset Reporter & Analyst for The Jerusalem Post,” “Proud Zionist” and “pink” feminist.

Ultimately a questionable new bill, sponsored by 61 members of the Israeli Knesset proposed that what it defined as a “Polish bill to outlaw talk of Poles’ complicity in the Nazis’ crimes” be construed as a form of illegal Holocaust denial–-even though that is not the Polish bill’s intention. It means to outlaw the phrase “Polish concentration camps” and other such slanders blaming Poland and the Polish people for a German genocide.

That some individual Poles, in a country under German occupation and continuous terror, did abet or profit from the genocide is an entirely different matter. Vultures, vermin and parasites are always drawn to the dying, the more so when their own environment is dying too. They did so throughout German-occupied Europe, where there was little German terror but many times the small Polish ratio of collaboration with the Nazis. They do so in every war of annihilation and every other major human disaster.

The same voices of opprobrium and outright slander as in Israel were raised by the international Jewish media and practically the entire major progressive press (Caveat: there is no non-progressive press). Time Magazine’s title was typical: “Poland Just Passed a Holocaust Bill That Is Causing Outrage” (2.1.2018). There was no mention of what causes outrage in Poland. There is hardly ever a mention of the Poles’ pain and suffering, but the writings about Jewish pain and suffering-–undeniably great but not outside the range of comparison to Poland’s–could fill the granaries of a medium-size country.

Jewish opinionators were worse than that. Let Lahav Harkov’s tweet (Twitter, 1.27.2018) stand to sum up the tenor of Israeli opinions, and Harry Maryles’s “Polish Death Camps” (JewishPress.com, 1.31.2018) stand for the Jewish diaspora’s opinions, without wasting verbiage on small nuances in the rest of them.

Harkov’s tweet consisted entirely of “Polish Death Camps” repeated 14 times. It’s a disgrace equal to the worst antisemitic slurs. I wonder how Jews would feel if I produced a post consisting of a phrase like “Elders of Zion,” or “Yagoda + Madoff = Jews” duplicated 14 times and conveying, ipso facto, that it sums up my opinion of the Jewish people.

Maryles’s article contains subjective assertions that could be challenged, but I’ll focus on just one that has the appearance of being more objective: “Except for the righteous gentiles among them, the Poles were perhaps the most eager participants of all nationalities in helping Nazis send Jews to the death camps of any other country. Just about every Polish Jew who survived the Holocaust–that I have ever spoken to–has made this claim.”

I’ll leave the rest of this text to formulate the anti-claim.

There were hundreds of other additional Poland-bashing utterances by Israeli and Jewish media, Jews of all stripes, politicians homing in on an easy target of a country “shockingly” 99.5%+ white, and the enormous Western media megaphone of them all. We have space just for one.

In mid-February, The Ruderman Family Foundation, one of those “inclusion and diversity”-obsessed American-Jewish outfits that do all they can to generate new American antisemites where there were none before, started a petition at NeverDeny.org, urging people to sign under the plea, “In the name of 6 million Jews, The United States must suspend relations with Poland now!” The Ruderman people also placed a professionally produced video on YouTube under the title “I will go to [Polish] jail,” with a lineup of American Jews saying “Polish Holocaust” and urging the United States to suspend its relations with Poland.

In Poland, the tempers boil, but the supposedly “far-right” government is strangely timid in this matter. Polish media are abuzz, but as far as the world is concerned, if it’s not in English it didn’t happen. It may well be that so many Jews with a public voice will continue hammering on this hot iron in an incendiary way that they will at last succeed in minting millions of new antisemites in Poland too.

Attempts to massage all these gratuitously offensive, racist, Poland-bashing statements do not work either. Emmanuel Nahshon, spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, tweeted on January 29: “The issue is NOT the death camps. Of course they were not Polish. Those were German death camps. The issue is the legitimate and essential freedom to talk about the involvement of Poles in the murder of Jews without fear or threat of penalisation.” A day earlier, Mr. Nahshon had tweeted: “We expect the Polish government to change the wording of the bill before its final adoption and to conduct a dialogue with Israel on the subject.”

Let me discard the earlier statement before I put the later out of its misery. For a sovereign country to declare so brazenly what line it “expects” another sovereign country to follow, is an outrage. It’s imprudent too for a small, remote Jewish country not entirely essential to the daily reality of Central Europe. And it’s foolish when directed toward the key country in the bloc standing athwart the Socialist-Muslim alliance–-the Jewish scholar of Islam, Bat Ye’or, called it “Eurabia”–that’s smothering the life out of that continent, its civilization, and its 2000+ year-old Jewish community.

Eurabia, whose leaders like Angela Merkel, and pal of Yasser Arafat Federica Mogherini, cry crocodile tears on Holocaust Remembrance Day and rail against “antisemitism” while being directly responsible for importing that antisemitism, via millions of their beloved Muslim “migrants” and the resulting contagion of public harassment, beatings and murder of Jews the like of which Europe has not seen since Hitler. Not to mention the form of antisemitism that masquerades as anti-Israelism whose purveyors are the same Communist-Socialist circles from which both Merkel and Mogherini and so many other European Union grandees have sprung.

How strange what Israel’s crème de la crème chose to criticize on the 2018 Holocaust Remembrance Day, and what it chose to pretend not to see.

Now to Emmanuel Nahshon’s earlier statement. We all know-–or do we?-–that the term “Polish concentration camps” was invented in 1956 by Alfred Benziger, a former sergeant in the Nazi Abwehr and post-war head of the spook Agency 114 that was sluicing Nazi war criminals into counter-intelligence work against the USSR with a wink and a nod of the CIA. That was a coordinated effort to shift blame for the Holocaust from Germany to the country that Germany had enslaved, destroyed and used as a territorial basis for carrying out its genocide of the Jews.

And we know, presumably, that this term has been used in German national and provincial media along with other massive bleaching operations seeking to relieve the guilt over Germany’s deeds during the war, including but not limited to the “Poor, noble German soldiers/ Jew-hating Polish resistance” TV mini-series “Our Mothers, Our Fathers,” a flagship product of the national public channel ZDF.

To acknowledge that “Polish concentration camps” were not Polish is as much a concession as allowing that Spanish flu was not Spanish.

Lastly, even if not “Polish” death camps, why in Poland? We know that answer too, don’t we: because those hidebound Polaks hate the Jews. That was the unambiguous statement of Yair Lapid, chairman of a minor party in the Knesset and Israel’s former Finance Minister. But maybe there is a simpler explanation devoid of casual anti-Slavic racism: Poland, because that’s where the Jews were.

Over one third of Europe’s 9-plus million Jews were in Poland, another 2.5 million in next-door Russia, and another 1.35 million in other countries then-bordering on Poland: Romania, Czechoslovakia and the Baltic states. And there were Germany’s own 525,000 Jews and Austria’s 190,000, with the united Reich not even bordering on Poland but having swallowed it whole either by direct annexation or through the Nazi-ruled “General Governorate.” All that makes for over 7.5 million Jews in a contiguous zone of Europe whose center was Poland. If you had the analytical German mind of people like Adolf Eichmann, was there another choice?

Let us now move to the most controversial and long-simmering part of the dispute, and the one that the Polish nation’s less strident foes in Israel, represented by the “conciliatory” voice of Israel’s Foreign Ministry, express as “talk about the involvement of Poles in the murder of Jews.” Of course, let us talk about that.

How many Poles snitched on Jews to the Germans, or murdered them, or grabbed whatever Jewish assets they could, has not been established and cannot be established as long as the maximalist side is represented by a sociologist posing as historian who is sponsored by critical theory-infected Princeton university, George Soros media such as Project Syndicate, and ultra-progressive/neo-Marxist German media such as Der Spiegel and Deutsche Welle-–remember the whitewash agenda there. Not to mention such purveyors of fake news as the American, Jewish-controlled newspaper that found only a Soviet idyll in Ukraine during the worst period of Stalin’s genocide there and, curiously, downplayed Hitler’s genocide of the Jews because it was bad for business.

The same newspaper that on December 10, 1942, published an article under the headline, “Poles Ask Allies to Halt Slaughter,” that started with the sentence, “The Polish Government has asked the Allied governments if there is any possibility of restraining the Germans from continuing their mass extermination of the Jewish population of Poland and their plans to obliterate the Poles as a nation.”

On Page 8, and to no effect whatsoever.

The same paper that, on February 6, 2018, published an article under the title, “Poland’s ‘Death Camp’ Law Tears at Shared Bonds of Suffering With Jews,” even though the reverse title, “Jews’ response to Poland’s ‘Death Camp’ Law Tears at Shared Bonds of Suffering With Poles” was equally viable.

Jan T. Gross, for that’s the name of the Poland-bashing star of the progressive zeitgeist, is the son of a Polish Catholic woman who saved his Jewish father’s life during the war and later married him. He has built a stellar career out of a gross libel of the Polish people, anchored by such nuggets as his statement that Poles during the war murdered more Jews than Germans. His selective retelling of well-known (in Poland) stories like the Jedwabne massacre has already been refuted by Polish scholars with better and more appropriate credentials, such as Marek Jan Chodakiewicz and Piotr Gontarczyk. As to Jedwabne specifically, a three year-long (2000–2003) investigation by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance concluded in two reports–203-pages and 1059 pages–that the massacre took place, there were about 340 victims (Gross: 1600), and about 40 Polish men participated in the crime (Gross: “half the village”), watched over and most likely forced by German soldiers who provoked (Gross: “permitted”) this crime in the first place.

A massacre remains a massacre regardless of the count of victims, but a major error or empty hyperbole that remains unrectified eighteen years after it was published evinces at best sloppiness, if not ulterior motives. Particularly so when the author is an academic and holder of an endowed chair in history, as Gross was then. The shabby intent transfers to repackagers of the libel, of which one reads many in the Israeli, German, and American press.

The kind of image Israelis have built of the Poles based on Jedwabne and Kielce is analogous to an image of Israelis that one might construe based on the Deir Yassin massacre or the terrorist bomb attack on King David Hotel. Throw not stones if you live in a glass house.

But it’s not only Israelis. Without a scintilla of knowledge in the subject matter, Heather Nauert, spokesperson for the US State Department, issued a statement on January 31 on behalf of her boss, Rex Tillerson. Opening with some bromides about the Holocaust as “painful and complex,” she proceeded to threaten “Poland’s strategic interests and relationships-–including with the United States and Israel” over the new law. Among the questions that statement arouses, one is especially piquant: does the US State Department speak for Israel too? And if that is the State Department of the “Alt-Right” president, why do we need to worry about the Left?

Not that it was dormant. “Poland’s Jews fear for future under new Holocaust law,” trumpeted the Guardian on February 10, 2018, opining further that the law “proved a diplomatic and public relations catastrophe abroad, as scholars, Holocaust survivors and friendly governments alike have lined up”–of course, to bash Poland with any “progressive” cudgel at hand.

As one of the proofs why Poland’s Jews now “fear for the future,” the Guardian-of-the-Left relayed that an editorial on the “rightwing” TV Republika webzine described the crisis as a “test of loyalty” for Polish Jews. Oy vey, antisemitism, again. What such agitprop always manages to omit is the telling detail. The telling detail of TV Republika is that it was founded by a patriotic Polish Jew and important journalist, Bronisław Wildstein. Wildstein is one of the most outspoken foes of the kind of Sorosesque Jews, and Poles too, who dig under his country with their “diversity,” “antisemitism,” and “refugees” backhoe.

Just to make sure we get how much Jews in Poland have to fear today, the lefty Brit juggernaut graced its article with a photograph entitled, “A crowd surround a dead man on the street in the Warsaw ghetto around 1940.” The crowd is mostly well-fed and decently dressed; none show much concern for the dead man, and some are smiling to the camera. Those nasty, cruel Poles. The only thing missing is a caveat that Poles had no entry to the ghetto; everyone in the photo is a Jew.

I will not go here into the worn-out story of Yad Vashem’s “Righteous Gentiles” and its 6,706-strong undercount of Poles who risked their lives to save Jews. But let me quote a bigger authority than Yad Vashem: my mom.

Part 2: The History

My mother, a bearer of both Polish and Jewish genes, saw her parents hauled off to no-return Majdanek and her brother shot point blank by a German SS-man during a Sunday promenade with her in a center-city square. She lost a cousin to the NKVD in the Katyn forest, and what would have been her future mother-in-law to the OUN Ukrainian Nazi allies. She was one of the few survivors of the Janowski death/labor camp and would be state’s witness against its commandant/sadist-from-hell. She jumped from a death train going straight to the gas chambers of Belzec. She heard the train engine’s Polish crew risking their lives to warn the still-hopeful crowd at the platform in Lvov that Belzec was not just another “concentration camp.” She then wandered, expiring, through the endless frozen forest until saved first by a Polish peasant and then by a German colonel. She endured prolonged interrogations, beatings and weeks of dungeon imprisonment first by the Gestapo and, a year later, the NKVD. And a sexual assault — exactly what kind she could not bring herself to tell — by a Soviet Army cavalry squad of “Asian-looking” soldiers whose odor would wake her up in the middle of the night, even 50 years later.

That’s what I call “seen it all”: a double Holocaust. And she told all and sundry, whenever the occasion arose: “If it weren’t for the Poles, not a single Jew would have survived in Poland.” About 100,000 survived, hiding among the Poles. There must have been many more “righteous” among the latter than Yad Vashem’s 6,706.

It is generally ignored, despite the mountains of documentary evidence, just what sort of hell the German occupiers imposed on Poland. In that kind of environment, the worst human elements emerge from the dark corners where they lurk in normal times. That goes both for the perpetrators –- to look at portraits of dozens of the worst Nazi executioners like Oskar Dirlewanger or Heinrich Müller is to see pure evil -– and the victim populations.

The Poles who snitched on Jews or killed or robbed them did not do so because they were Poles but because they were criminal, base or cowardly. And some, we have no means of knowing how many, also because they hated Jews. Just as we have no means of knowing how many Poles Jewish commissars in the Commie secret police -– people like Salomon Morel, Julia Brystygier or Izaak Fleischfarb — tortured to death because they hated ethnic Poles, how many because they hated anti-communists, and how many because they were conscience-less opportunists.

Symmetrically, some Holocaust deniers adduce Jewish ghetto police, kapos, snitches, brutalizers and exploiters of wartime Jews as evidence that Jews are themselves complicit in the Holocaust. But no; Jews too have their minority of unsavory specimens, and the unalloyed horror of the Holocaust allowed them to surface.

The tragic history of the “Polish Anna Frank” and her family offers a peek at the reality of those times: ghetto, rescue due to the privileged status of an uncle in the Judenrat, rescue again by a noble German officer, rescue again by multiple Poles in two cities, and a tragic end at German hands because of an anonymous snitch.

To smear the Polish nation as a whole with the broad brush dipped in the worst of its worst is no better than talk of “Jewish usury,” “Jewish perfidy,” “Jewish bankers” or “Jewish bolshevism.” But there is more.

For the nearly hundred years between 1850 and 1945 and to a lesser degree up to now, antisemitism in the eastern third of Europe, including Poland, has been deeper and more paranoid than in the West, excepting the anomalies of the Third Reich and, now, the Muslim component of Eurabia. There are multiple causes, some quite bilateral, others inherent in the tragic fallacy of multiculturalism. Both sides tell only their convenient parts of the truth, and it’s all too much to discuss here. But it’s strange and unwarranted that all this Israeli and Jewish fury is directed toward Poland, and only Poland. Let me explain.

First, it is likely that the entire genus of Ashkenazi Jew would have been extinguished in the German, French and other Black Death and crusades-related pogroms and expulsions of the 13th and 14th centuries, had not the Polish sovereigns Duke Bolesław Pobożny (Bolesław the Pious) and king Kazimierz III Wielki (Casimir III “the Great”) given the fleeing remnant a refuge and royal protection.

Second, Poland was the only country in German-occupied Europe where there was neither a collaborationist government nor volunteers in the Waffen SS or any other unit doing the Germans’ wet work. There were no Polish concentration camps, and no Polish guards in the German concentration camps -– but there were Russian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian and other such guards-executioners. My mom saw them “at work.”

There was but one ignoble exception: the “Blue Police.” Subordinated to the German police, it consisted of about 11,000 pre-war Polish policeman who had been called to report to duty by order of Poland’s Nazi ruler, Hans Frank, under penalty of death. While their task was to maintain simple law and order, they did participate in street round-ups and many engaged in extortion, snitching and other vile acts toward Jewish individuals –- but not in the mass killing. And whatever they did, it still pales in comparison to the war-era French, Dutch, Norwegian and other police forces in German-occupied Europe. Moreover, in Poland’s zone occupied by the Soviets in 1939–1941 there was the “Red Police,” composed of Soviet-collaborating Jews, Ukrainians and Belarusians who were doing to Poles what the “Blue Police” was doing to Jews in the German-occupied part.

There were over 400,000 Poles fighting the German occupiers in the largest underground army in Europe, and they executed anyone collaborating with the Germans to the detriment of Poles or Jews. There was the largest in Europe number of gentiles risking their lives to help and shelter Jews in the only country in Europe where the penalty for doing so was death to the protector and his entire family. And there was the largest army-in-exile fighting Hitler too: 250,000 men under British command, unable to help their ravaged homeland but instrumental in many decisive battles on the Western front.

The only semi-balanced article I have seen by an Israeli author in the Israeli press about the Holocaust libel law, Seth Frantzman’s “Setting history straight – Poland resisted Nazis,” (Jerusalem Post, January 29, 2018) contains this sentence about the Polish resistance: “A few posters being put up and torn down pales in comparison to millions of Jews sent to death camps.”

It was quite a bit more than “a few posters being put up and torn down.”

The horror, death, enslavement and wholesale destruction of Poland: its people murdered by the millions, its culture, its entire infrastructure, schools, hospitals and its capital all in ruins, was much greater than Israelis and Jews at large seem interested to learn about. 1.4 million Poles were hauled from their homes and forced to work as slaves in German factories and fields, not counting 300,000 military prisoners who were so forced also. Between 35,000 and 50,000 Polish women were snatched off the streets and forced to provide “services” in German military brothels. A quarter million boys were kidnapped from their mothers and brought to Germany to be shaped into future Aryan SS-men, with the laggards exterminated by phenol injections and gruesome medical experiments.

The number of ethnic Poles murdered by the Germans was not “at least 1.9 million” as Frantzman’s article states, but 2.77 million, i.e. almost equivalent to the 2.7 to 2.9 number of murdered Polish Jews. And that does not include the 150,000 Poles murdered by the Soviets with significant collaboration of Polish Jews in the years 1939–1941 and 1944–1945 [figures from Polish Institute of National Remembrance (IPN), 2009]. Moreover, much of that mass murder was a targeted “decapitation,” pursued by Germans and Soviets in their respective occupation zones, to wipe out Poland’s administrative, intellectual, scientific, spiritual, law and military elites, before more “culling” and then the formal enslavement of the remaining population. [See a compact, referenced account of these crimes]

There is hardly a Polish family that did not suffer murder at the hands of Germans, whether in arbitrary retail or planned wholesale, hauling to concentration camps or Gestapo abattoirs, brutal impression into slave labor or expropriation and exile far away from family home and land. Frequently, all of the above. The physical damage to Poland at German hands, alone, stands at $850 billion–$1 trillion in 2018 dollars. Germany has not paid reparations even for that, though between 1952 and 2017 it paid so many billions in Deutsche marks and euros in so many reparations agreements with the State of Israel and Jewish Holocaust survivors, with additional agreements pending, that a non-specialist has no way to add it all up.

And third: as opposed to this fixation on Poland, this hateful, worldwide baying from all quarters of Israeli and Jewish society, one does not hear much about their outrage concerning present veneration of many Nazi-collaborators and direct perpetrators of persecutions, round-ups and mass murder of Jews in countries like Croatia, Hungary, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine and others.

How many Israeli politicians and media mavens commented on the giant portraits of Nazi allies and Jews’ (and Poles’) mass murderers Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych and Yevhen Konovalets, borne by adoring crowds of the “Maidan revolution” in Lvov and Kiev, said “maidan” enjoying the enthusiastic support of at least two Jewish-Ukrainian oligarchs with Israeli citizenship?

I am yet to hear about Israel government’s condemnation of Croatian mass celebrations of Ante Pavelic and the Croatian Ustasha who made of the Jasenovac concentration camp what Israelis call gehenom and Poles call gehenna, more macabre than the Germans’ worst.

There is no American Jewish Committee thunder about the Jobbik party in Hungary, that country’s third largest with 20.5% of the votes in the 2014 National Assembly elections, openly fascist and as ravingly Jew-hating as to, among others, wade on the parliament’s floor in 2012 into advocacy for the Tiszaeszlár blood libel and its notorious trial that already in 1883 had been dismissed by Hungarian judges as prosecutorial fraud.

No coordinated storm of outrage in Israeli and Jewish media at Lithuania. No Jan T. Gross bestsellers about the massive Lithuanian collaboration in the corralling and delivery of Jews to their executioners, and volunteering to Waffen SS and to guard units at German concentration camps. And now, some of the chief criminals, e.g. Jonas Noreika, are honored with public plaques, and the head of Lithuania’s collaborationist government Juozas Ambrazevičius, who, per Efraim Zuroff of the Simon Wiesenthal Center “collaborated with the Nazis” in the mass murder of Jews and “actively encouraged” Lithuanian participation in it, gets an official state burial with full honors, in 2012.

Kaunas, where that solemn funeral took place, was the locus of the Lithuanian Holocaust. Thousands of Jews were murdered there by Lithuanian militias before the arrival of the German army. It was here where Seventh Fort was constructed, the first and Jews-only concentration camp in German-occupied territories, staffed by Lithuanians, the chief task of their Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas being the murder of the Jews of Kaunas and elsewhere in Lithuania and Belarus.

With all that, a public Israeli/Jewish storm about a Polish law demanding to put the Holocaust on the doorstep of the country whose government and people carried it out, Germany? Why, one may start noticing the grumbling by some Poles that this is all about money. Applying the vise of media-manipulated public opinion and the U.S. Congress as well as the British Parliament to gain an advantage in negotiations with Poland’s government about “restitution” for any and all unspecifiable assets that had no heirs after their Jewish owners were murdered in the Holocaust.

Which would be quite a unique arrangement, given that Poland bears no responsibility for the German murder and expropriation of the original owners, and the American Jewish and Israeli organizations that would collect the loot in 2018 have no evidence of title and are, in any case, not successors in title to the heirless and intestate Jewish citizens of Poland who perished at the hand of Germans under German occupation between 1939 and 1945.

Moreover, Poland has already provided restitutions under treaties with multiple countries for all legitimate property claims in Poland. Further claims may be pursued in Poland by the usual judicial means. Lastly, pursuant to a Polish law in 1997, Jewish organizations in Poland received restitution for over 2,500 German-expropriated or destroyed communal properties such as synagogues, cemeteries and cultural centers.

All this notwithstanding, there is quite a lot one can achieve by orchestrating an international storm about “Polish murderers of Jews,” some sleight of hand with history and, astonishingly, recruiting the United States Congress and the British Parliament to do your bidding. And that recruitment appeared in March to have resulted in American heavy-handedness exceeding perhaps any comparable precedent.

On March 6, Politico (Europe) revealed the existence of a recent memo from the U.S. State Department declaring the new Polish law as an unacceptable violation of freedom of speech. The memo gave the Polish government a three-point ultimatum: either “resolve” this issue –- needless to say to America’s and international Jewry’s satisfaction — or else Poland’s leaders will be barred from White House meetings, U.S. Congress will block funds for joint military projects in Poland including the stationing of U.S. troops there within the NATO framework, and there will be further “dramatic” consequences in case an American citizen is charged under the new law.

Michael Brendan Dougherty asked on the pages of National Review, “Is NATO in Poland to Deter Russians or Poles?” Indeed.

Leaving aside what you get for “blasphemy” in Dar al-Islam, in Thailand, insulting the king will get you a prison sentence for 3 to 70 years. In Great Britain, a tweet expressing your dissatisfaction with the Pakistanization of British demographics or the Islamization of its culture will gain you a police knock on the door at 3 a.m., next morning, while if your child niece was “groomed” by a gang of “Asians” for 15 years, law enforcement for that entire period would have been in a state of catatonic hypersomnia. In Germany, a former Stasi agent, Anetta Kahane, has been chosen by no less than Justice Minister Heiko Maas to oversee the German Internet, remove “hate speech,” and prosecute its authors.

In Sweden, opposition to “immigration” in conversation or a social media post will get you a criminal hacking and “outing” by the far-left Expressen newspaper, including your photo, legal name, email and physical address, so that fascist Antifa thugs may better find you. And also, for your employer, neighbors, fiancée and family to know exactly what a racist Nazi you are, and do what’s right. In the United States, criticism of “people of color” or honest talk about racial or gender differences will bring on an automatic termination of your job, livelihood, and lifetime career too.

The United States has willed itself to blindness in all these egregious instances, but it bullies and blackmails Poland under the pretext of “freedom of expression” because Poland no longer wishes to be libeled as the perpetrator of the Holocaust. Who in the Trump administration put this sorry farce in motion?

Part 3: Before we talk

There is nothing in the new Polish “Holocaust libel law” that prohibits or penalizes talk about malfeasance by Poles toward Jews during the Holocaust or at any other time. It pertains only to blaming the Polish nation for the Holocaust and whitewashing German responsibility for it. By all means, let such talk flourish, as well as talk about the Poles who saved Jews from murder. But let it be a conversation, not a monologue.

Let us also talk about the persecution and murder of Poles by Jews, and following that, the persecution and murder of Russians and Hungarians — all in varying intensity throughout the first 55 years of the 20th century. Certainly not all Jews were involved in communist mischief, but chief founders of the respective Communist parties and executors of communist terror and mayhem were either in their majority (Hungary, particularly in 1919, ditto Germany) or astonishing plurality (USSR in 1917-1935) and Poland (1918-1920, 1939–1941, 1944-1956), Jewish.

I cannot conclude without revisiting at least one of the latest compliments paid especially by American Jews to the land neither they nor their immigrant ancestors who had lived in Poland for 600 years, mostly as an alien and alienated colony, have had the slightest true interest in.

Making sure to first flash some creds in Western culture by citing Voltaire and later Santayana, Rabbi Menachem Levine declared on the pages of the Washington Times (February 20, 2018) that “Poland’s new Holocaust law is yet another pack of tricks played upon the millions of murdered Jews in the Holocaust.” Citing his other creds as a “grandchild of four Polish Holocaust survivors” (I am the grandchild of none), Levine calls that law “a disgrace and a mockery.”

While injecting the cliché about “6,700 Poles recognized by the Yad Vashem,” Levine proceeds to iterate all the arguments how it was the Poles who “made the Holocaust possible,” including “passively observing” and “enthusiastically supporting,” and why all that happened in Poland, which “both allowed and assisted in the Holocaust.” All that under a picture of the Polish flag with the Nazi hakenkreuz imposed upon it –- removed hastily from the original article (bad for business etc.) but preserved in Polish media, e.g. here.

I hereby sentence the good rabbi to compulsory participation in a four-day seminar that I will hold in the Church of the Good Shepherd Yeshua in Freedomia as a preamble to the truthful dialogue about who murdered whom in Poland. As a condition of attendance, class, please take down these names and prepare to know something about them when we meet on the first day:

  • Jakub Berman
  • Hilary Minc
  • Roman Romkowski (aka Natan Grünspan)
  • Anatol Fejgin
  • Józef Światło (aka Izaak Fleischfarb, aka “The Butcher”)
  • Jacek Różański (aka Josek Goldberg)
  • Antoni Alster (aka Nachum Alster),
  • Helena Chaja Altenberg
  • Leon Andrzejewski (aka Lejb-Wolf Ajzen)
  • Gustaw Auscaler (escaped to Israel)
  • Zygmunt Braude
  • Mieczysław Broniatowski
  • Julia Brystygier (aka Julia Prajs, aka “Bloody Luna”)
  • Józef Czaplicki (aka Izydor Kurc)
  • Berek Eisenstein
  • Marek Fink
  • Stefan Finkel
  • Alicja Graff
  • Kazimierz Graff
  • Mieczysław (Szmul) Gross
  • Maria Gurowska (aka Maria Zand)
  • Wiktor Herer
  • Adam Humer
  • Edward Kalecki
  • Pauline Kern
  • Józef Jurkowski, (aka Josek Jungman, escaped to Denmark)
  • Wacław Komar (aka Mendel Kossoj)
  • Julian Konar
  • Józef Kratko
  • Ajzer Mąka
  • Pinek Mąka
  • Emil Merz
  • Stefan Michnik (aka Stefan Szechter, escaped to Sweden)
  • Mieczyslaw Mietkowski (aka Mojzesz Bobrowicki)
  • Salomon Morel (escaped to Israel)
  • Zygmunt Okręt
  • Bronisław (Boruch) Nechamkis
  • Henryk Piasecki, (aka Izrael Chaim Pesses)
  • Lola Potok
  • Leon Rubinsztein
  • Maksymilian Schnepf (aka Maksymilian Sznepf)
  • Shlomo Singer
  • Michał (Mojżesz) Taboryski
  • Benjamin Wajsblech
  • Aleksander Warecki (aka Aleksander Warenhaupt)
  • Zygmunt Wizelberg
  • Helena Wolińska (aka Fajga Mindla Danielak, aka Helena Brus, escaped to England)

These are 47 names of Jews who ran the Communist terror machine in Poland in the years 1944- 1955, most of them in military uniforms and with close links to the Soviet NKVD. Some were secret police officers, interrogators and torturers, some were concentration camp and prison commandants, some military judges and prosecutors, and others ideologues constructing the rationale for communist terror. And two, Jakub Berman and Hilary Minc, were two thirds of the triumvirate of hardline Stalinists that ruled Poland with an iron fist on behalf of Uncle Joe.

A specialist historian could come up with many more names and instances of Jewish executors of this terror, but I am just a non-specialized writer, albeit with a broad academic background devoid of a pre-programmed agenda. And this is difficult territory to navigate, requiring scrupulous research free of both politically correct inhibitions and antisemitic confirmation bias.

What’s important to keep in mind is that these names stand for a group that constituted over 37% of just the security terror apparatus when Poland’s Jewish minority, after emigration of some, numbered at most 100,000 — about 0.4% percent of the Polish population reduced from 35 million in 1938 to 23.6 million in 1946.

It will take you some weeks to research these names, but without that you have no business trying to form an opinion about any aspect of Polish-Jewish relations in the post-war era. You will find referenced Wikipedia entries about the more prominent names. There is some relevant literatures in English, e.g. Marek Jan Chodakiewicz’s The Dialectics of Pain: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955 and John Sack’s An Eye for an Eye, though the latter presents the dozens of post-war Polish communist concentration camps run by Jews as pertaining only to German inmates, though there were many prisoners from the Polish anti-communist, anti-German underground, and from the Polish Silesian minority as well. If there is a single brief Polish online text you should struggle with, it’s Faces of Security Services in the Polish People’s Republic in the years 1944 – 1956 (translated title), with photos.

Part 2 of the seminar is called “The impact of Polish Jews’ collaboration and participation in the Bolshevik invasion of 1919–1920 and the Soviet invasion and genocide in Poland, 1939–1941.” Note that Jedwabne was in the zone of the latter invasion. In preparation, please research the name Jan Karski. Go to the Hoover Institution Archives website, Jan Karski web page, click on “Mission,” click on “Karski’s Reports.” Click on the tag “Jewish Questions at Home” .” Read the report. It’s heartbreaking but our focus here will be on pages 6 and 7. The report is in Polish, but your interest in this field is insincere unless you learn to read Polish. A further bibliographical list will be distributed in class.

Part 3 is called “The shoe on the other foot -– Jewish rescuers of anti-communist Poles during their intensive 1945-1955 persecutions and murders by the Soviet-Polish-Jewish Communist authorities.” Your lecturer’s page is blank on this, so the roles will be reversed. You will research the subject independently and will present your findings in class.

The seminar will conclude with a lecture entitled “If you embrace, you are embraced.” Contrary to the massive international propaganda image of Jews and Poles as mutually exclusive, hostile camps, with the former a victim of genocide by the latter, we will discuss Jews who, as Polish patriots, fought in the front lines of military and cultural battles for Poland, and are to this day honored in that country. They were a minority among the Jews, but it’s obvious that they had good reasons to love Poland and die for it, too.

There are too many on the cultural front to mention here, but as far as military matters go, among several others we will discuss Berek Joselewicz, a colonel and commander of an all-Jewish light horse regiment of the Polish insurrection army during the Kościuszko Uprising, later in other Polish formations in the Napoleonic wars; Major Bernard Mond, an infantry battalion commander during the 1919-1920 war against the Bolshevik invasion army and by 1939 the commanding general of the Polish 6th Infantry Division; and Countess Krystyna Skarbek, Winston Churchill’s and Ian Fleming’s favorite special-ops spy.

Among other markers will be the 650 Jewish volunteers in the Polish Legion fighting for Polish independence during World War 1, Polish towns where the Jewish communities allied with their Polish neighbors against the 1919-1920 Bolshevik invasion in opposition to those Jewish communities that supported it, several hundred Jews fighting in the Polish nationalist underground army during World War 2 (by 2001, about 250 had been identified by name), in addition to the estimated 100 thousand who had been drafted into the Polish Army in 1939 and experienced the hard fate of Polish soldiers and officers in the war years.

I first encountered the most horrific of the Jewish names adduced here when playing with my lead soldiers under a table around which the adults were whispering out of the earshot of commie snitches on the other side of the wall. The adults were ethnic Poles, Polish Jews, and my parents, who were a mixture of both. All survivors of their respective Holocausts, and all friends.

This collective hunt that the world’s Jewry has been pursuing against Poland and the Polish people unrelentingly for the last 20 years, with the United States Congress and the British Parliament acting as beaters of the prey, is a disgrace. Combined with continuous attempts to squeeze property and billions of dollars from a country attempting to stand on its feet after 500 years of fighting off invaders from east and west, then sacrificing its treasure and many of its best men to save the West at the gates of Vienna in 1683, followed a few decades later by 146 years of the triple yoke of Russian, Prussian and Austrian occupation, followed by just 20 years of independence started with a desperate two-year war that stopped the Bolshevik invasion of Europe, followed by the hell of almost 6 years of German occupation, followed by betrayal by the Allies and the looting and squashing of the Poles for 45 more years of Soviet occupation, followed as of 1989 by the looting of Poland’s industry, commerce, agriculture and natural resources via the harmful premises of Jeffrey Sachs/George Soros economics, followed, since November 2015, by a relentless assault from the Union of European Multiculti Socialists (EU) and its worldwide amen lobby — why, that’s more than a disgrace.

I will leave the choice of the descriptive word to you.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy, History • Tags: Holocaust, Israel, Jews, Poland, World War II 
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  1. There are other historical complications, mentioned in my blog:

    Jun 6, 2016 – Appeasing Poland

    We all know the evil Nazi’s invaded Czechoslovakia, but no one mentions that Poland grabbed a chunk first. After a threatening ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen) an area of some 625 square miles with a population of 230,000 people.

    And when Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland a year later, why didn’t the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too? History is far more complex and interesting than the boring comic books we read in American educational institutions.

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    • Replies: @snag
    Concentrate and try to stay on the subject - In regard to Polish–Czechoslovak border conflicts it wouldn't hurt to refuel your tank with a 'knowledge' up there with facts instead rehashing this crap whenever and wherever you can ,...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts

    In Polish
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsko-czechos%C5%82owackie_konflikty_graniczne

    , @jilles dykstra
    Fritz Peter Habel, ´Die Sudeten-Deutschen’, 1992, 2002, München

    There is no doubt that the Tsjechs discriminated the Germans in Sudetenland, then Chechoslovakia.
    This even was the conclusion of a British diplomat, send by London to investigate, around 1938.
    As to the German occupation, Hitler feared Russian bombers, that could easily destroy the Ruhr industries from Tsjech airports.
    , @jilles dykstra
    Historians wonder why Hitler was not attacked in early 1938, when the considerable Tsjech army also still existed.
    The combined military might of Poland, France, GB, Tsjechslovakia might have beaten Germany quickly, if necessary strenghtened by the USSR.
    The only possible explanation they can think of is that FDR wanted a long war, in which the USA would emerge as the winner, global leader at the same time.
    , @Lex
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance

    mutual assistance in case of military invasion from Germany
     
    , @szopen

    We all know the evil Nazi’s invaded Czechoslovakia, but no one mentions that Poland grabbed a chunk first.
     
    Sure, but earlier in 1918 local Czechs and local Poles made a local agreement about how to divide the territory, and then Czechs attacked Poles, using very dirty tricks (like for example pretending they are "entente officers").
    , @Ellroy
    You see, the problem with your view is that Czechoslovakia took this land illegally in 1920, so you need to read more about our history before making such statements.
    , @Thirdeye
    German advocacy of the Polish demand against the Czechs, piggybacked onto the concessions they had obtained over the Sudetenland, was what brought them to the brink of war with Britain and France in 1938. Hitler was trying to collect brownie points with Poland. Hitler's first foreign policy move was to make overtures to Poland, and up to the breakdown of negotiations over the Danzig Corridor he regarded Poland as a prospective ally.
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  2. This short video goes into quite a bit of detail of the toxic influence Jews had in Poland (and elsewhere)

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  3. Since this topic is about Poland and World War II, allow me to toss this grenade in the discussion:

    Oct 13, 2010 – Was Churchill Worse than Hitler?

    I just finished Pat Buchanan’s new book: “Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War”. Good read. All our official history is government propaganda. Sane people agree that America’s entry into World War I was a horrible mistake. The war was a stalemate by 1916 and the cause of the war were ill thought alliances, so a truce would have resulted. Instead, American intervention encouraged two more years of senseless fighting that nearly destroyed the major European powers. As a result, the communists took power in Russia and the punitive Armistice was a disaster that resulted in World War II.

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target. He never wanted war with the West, and admired Great Britain. Buchanan exposes Winston Churchill as a crazed warmonger who destroyed the British Empire by pushing it into World War I and World War II. In 1938, Poland’s dictator joined Germany and Hungary in gobbling up the post World War I British creation of Czechoslovakia. Hitler then courted Poland as an ally against Stalin.

    But Poland’s dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. This made Poland’s dictator confident so he refused any talks with Hitler, who invaded and crushed Poland. Hitler hoped that Britain and France were bluffing about war, and forbade anything but defensive combat on the French frontier, but changed his mind after Anglo-French aggressions. One can only guess how things may have turned out if the British had not foolishly promised to back Poland. Although World War II was “won”, it killed tens of millions of people, destroyed much of Europe, and left half of Europe under communist tyranny.

    Pat Buchanan deserves great credit for discussing the real history of the “Good War”. This contrasts with Tom Brokaw’s simplistic 1998 “The Greatest Generation”, from which he pocketed millions of dollars for writing a propaganda tale that implies the greatest achievement of our nation is fighting wars. World War II combat veteran Paul Fussell wrote several honest (and unpopular) books about war. He noted that only one million Americans volunteered for World War II, mostly because they needed jobs during the economic depression. The other 11 million were drafted and spent the war disgruntled and scheming for a discharge. Only later did they recall their unselfish crusade for freedom.

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    • Replies: @WHAT
    Maybe you should read "Sleepwalkers" by Christopher Clark instead. It actually explains british strategic imperative and why WWI and WWII, as well as preceding Mitteleuropa wars were inevitable.
    , @jilles dykstra
    Hitler a bad guy, not in the eyes of Germans interviewed in the eighties, who voted for Hitler in the thirties, 1938 was the happiest year in their life.

    Kai S. Schreyber (Hrsg.), ´Warum wir ADOLF HITLER wählten, Jungwähler von 1933/38 berichten’, 2001 Kiel
    , @animalogic
    "After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. "
    There's nothing I really disagree with in your comment, per se.
    But, i 'd like to add one point. British strategy had been the same for many years" NO single power, such as France or Spain should control the Continent. So what to do about Germany AND the USSR ? In 1938/9 which appeared the most expansionist ? Which the greater IMMEDIATE threat ? Unencumbered by a Western threat how much power would Germany accumulate moving East ?
    Pick your devil...
    , @jilles dykstra
    " But Poland’s dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. "

    A bit more complicated, Poland feared another split if it remained neutral.
    The British guarantee brought it on the British side.
    But rumour is that even FDR gave a guarantee in August 1939.
    If any country was betrayed by GB and FDR it was Poland.

    Simon Newman, ´March 1939, The British guarantee to Poland, A study in the continuity of British Foreign Policy’, 1976, Oxford

    Comte Jean Szembek, Ancien sous-secrétaire d’État aux Affaires étrangères de Pologne, ‘Journal, 1933 – 1939’, Paris 1952

    Jan Ciechanowski, vormals polnischer Botschafter in den Vereinigten Staaten, ´Vergeblicher Sieg’, Zürich 1948 ( Defeat in Victory, New York, 1947)

    David Irving, ‘Accident – The death of General Sikorsky’, 1979, München (German translation)
    , @Miro23

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target.

     

    So that was OK then, nothing to worry about - the Germans only wanted an Eastern Empire stretching to the Urals and the Black Sea. And the Japanese only wanted an Asian Empire (including China) - nothing to worry about there either.
    , @szopen

    Poland’s dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand.
     
    That's not a real summary.

    (1) for years Hitler was assuring Poland that Danzig is non-issue

    (2) Then he demanded not just "Danzig rail corridor". His demands varied, but in general there were those:

    (a) plebiscite in Western Poland, in which Polish military, police would withdraw, all Poles who settled there after 1919 would be forbidden to vote, while every German who was born before 1919 there could vote (ignoring the fact that many of those were settlers or children of military and police)
    (b) Danzig would go to Germany
    (c) Poland would join Axis.

    He would then guarantee Poland's borders.

    Now, given that he already has given several promises, and he always broke them, nobody in Poland believed in his single word. He said "this is my last demand" after Sudetenland,then after incorporating rest of Czechoslovakia. I'd say that it's reasonable to expect that if Poland would agree to his "reasonable" demands, then he would continue to make new demands.

    Not to mention that demand of plebiscite in Western Poland on his conditions was clearly a demand impossible to fulfill and could be given only to a state already defeated in war.
    , @Moi
    No mention of the 2 million or so who are incarcerated in the concentration camp called Gaza.
    , @Moi
    Given all the lies Israel and its supporters say about the Palestinians, it's hard to believe the official Holocaust history written largely by Jewish historians.
    , @Walter Orlowski
    I am surprised that most of you think that Pat is a historian rather than a columnist and unfortunately by writing the “Unnecessary War” became an apologist for Hitler’s actions. There is no truth in what Pat is saying. The demands that Pat is talking about were made 24 hours before the invasion with his pact with Stalin dividing Poland in his pocket and 1.5 million army on the border of Poland. Most of what Pat calls Hitler’s demands were Nazi Press articles. Poland was doomed because both of its powerful neighbors wanted to destroy it, not because they were stubborn. Poland was betrayed and used by Britain, but its fate was predetermined by Hitler’s insanity and desire for war. As he stated: “I want war” during a conversation with Count Ciano, Mussolini’s son in law and his emissary.

    Pat also does not seem to know what Hitler’s proposal was. The original proposal from Hitler was an alliance against Russia, which would allow him to station troops inside Poland and take control of Polish army. That would have given him Poland’s resources and manpower to wage his intended war on Europe and the World. The Poles said: no. The Poles also said no to a similar proposal by Russia (communicated through Britain). Unfortunately the Poles put all they hopes in Britain who created an alliance not to fight Hitler but hoping to prevent Hitler from waging war on Britain. But, no matter what Poles did the outcome would have been the same, but Polish leaders failed its people.

    What Pat seems oblivious off is that if Goering was the head of the Nazi party there would have been no war. Likewise, if Stalin did not agree to Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty, there may not have been a war, since Brits were planning another Munich; this time for Poland.

    Pat was also wrong about demographics. In the country side of East Prussia there were more Poles than Germans. Most of the Germans were in major cities. In Pomerania, West of the Polish border, most of the area was inhabited by Poles.
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  4. snag says:
    @Carlton Meyer
    There are other historical complications, mentioned in my blog:

    Jun 6, 2016 - Appeasing Poland

    We all know the evil Nazi’s invaded Czechoslovakia, but no one mentions that Poland grabbed a chunk first. After a threatening ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen) an area of some 625 square miles with a population of 230,000 people.

    And when Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland a year later, why didn’t the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too? History is far more complex and interesting than the boring comic books we read in American educational institutions.

    Concentrate and try to stay on the subject – In regard to Polish–Czechoslovak border conflicts it wouldn’t hurt to refuel your tank with a ‘knowledge’ up there with facts instead rehashing this crap whenever and wherever you can ,…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts

    In Polish

    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsko-czechos%C5%82owackie_konflikty_graniczne

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    • Replies: @Beckow
    What Poland did in 1938 after Munich to Czechoslovakia was identical to what Nazi Germany did. A multi-ethnic territory that legally belonged to a neighbouring country was occupied by Poland.

    The same is true about the Soviet Union's annexation of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus in 1939. They occupied areas that were inhabited mostly by Ukrainians and Belorussians. And also after Germany attacked Poland. If Poland did it, why shouldn't others do it to Poland?

    Different nations, different scale, but exactly the same principle - 'protect people of your nationality' living in neighbouring countries.

    The fact that Poland did the same thing to Czechoslovakia undermines Polish claims to some martyr purity. Would you stop with the preachy pontificating about Poland always being 'just a victim'? (And Wiki as a source? Right, I am sure the Polish version is really 'nuanced'.)
    , @aandrews
    "Concentrate and try to stay on the subject...."

    lol
    , @Gleongelpi
    Wikipedia your source for accuracy? LOL. You need to go get an education.
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  5. Brilliant!!!

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  6. And we know, presumably, that this term has been used in German national and provincial media

    How do you know that? Are there studies documenting this is a widespread term in German media? Because I can’t recall ever having read it, certainly not in the sense that it was claimed the extermination camps were somehow under Polish control. If the term is used at all, in most cases it will be due to thoughtlessness, not deliberate obfuscation, and merely in a geographical sense.
    Granted, the Our mothers, our fathers tv series was pretty questionable in some parts and Polish protests were justifed. But there is no organized German campaign to shift responsibility for the Holocaust onto Poland. This exists only in the imagination of Polish right-wingers.

    Germany has not paid reparations even for that, though between 1952 and 2017 it paid so many billions in Deutsche marks and euros in so many reparations agreements with the State of Israel and Jewish Holocaust survivors,

    Yes, but Israel didn’t get one quarter of pre-war German territory, plus the satisfaction of taking revenge by ethnically cleansing a few million Germans. Bit one-sided to leave this “detail” unmentioned.

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    • Agree: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Lex
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/is-new-polish-law-an-attempt-to-whitewash-its-citizens-roles-in-the-holocaust/

    In 1956, a group of former Nazis working as West German intelligence agents coined terminology that arguably became the most viral — and longest lasting — propaganda born out of the former Hitler regime: “Polish death camps.”

    Agency 114, filled with German former members of the Gestapo, SS and SD, was headed by former Nazis Secret Field Police (GFP) sergeant Alfred Benzinger, who is credited with the phrase.

    Benzinger’s goal? To change public discourse and shift the blame for the Holocaust from Germans and Germany to Poland, where most of the Nazi regime’s mass extermination camps were located. And by the time of Benzinger’s propaganda attack, Poland was in the throes of such domestic turmoil that the wordage was hardly a priority.
     
    , @Razparuk
    Sorry but polish teritory was 383 000km2 before II WW, after is 312 000 km2-we didn't asked for "change teritory" . We lost this cause decision of USA,USSR,UK so Germans have blame them or Hitler...ur choice
    , @Wally
    said:
    "But there is no organized German campaign to shift responsibility for the Holocaust onto Poland. This exists only in the imagination of Polish right-wingers."

    Seriously? Germans & other Europeans are arrested if they try anything that alters the impossible '6M Jews, 5M others & gas chambers' scam.

    Below is where free speech on the impossible 'holocaust' storyline is illegal, violators go to prison for Thought Crimes & Free Speech.
    An obvious admission that the storyline doesn't stand up to scientific, logical, & rational scrutiny.
    https://forum.codoh.com/download/file.php?id=1858

    www.codoh.com
    , @Dmitry
    Germany is contemporarily so nice and concessionary to both Jews and Polish. That the only thing left is for them to attack each other.
    , @Anna
    Poland was given land in the West for their east territory (wolyn Lwów) .. the deal we never wanted but was agreed by Stalin and so call allies ... so that got NOTHING TO DO WITH WAR REPARATIONS !
    My family has lost everything in the east ... and never got anything in the West ... so my family reparation is still due.
    , @Polish reader
    To German reader: You 'forgot' to mention that Poland as a result of II WW lost 1/3 of its east territory taken by Stalin and USSR. Stalin removed from these part of former Poland 3 millins Poles. And one small point - the idea to move polish borders to west is the decision of Jalta agreement where Poles did not have the voice.
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  7. The sudden backlash, especially from Israel, was a surprise because the Israeli ambassador, Anna Azari, or her Deputy, had been meeting with the Poles for more than a year, without objection, observing the development of the bill.

    It’s crucial to note that the new law proscribes accusations against “the Polish nation or the Polish state” as such, and at that level only.

    Wikipedia has a worthwhile treatment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_on_the_Institute_of_National_Remembrance

    The proposed law modifies a previous law relating to the Institute of National Remembrance (namely, the Act of 18 December 1998 on the – Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation (Dz.U. 1998 nr 155 poz. 1016)).

    Article 55a:
    1. [Anyone] who, in public and against the facts, ascribes to the Polish Nation or to the Polish State, responsibility or co-responsibility for Nazi crimes committed by the Third Reich, [as] defined in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, Annex to the Agreement for the prosecution and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis, signed in London on August 8, 1945 [...], or for other offences which are crimes against peace [or] humanity or [that are] war crimes, or who otherwise grossly reduces the responsibility of the actual perpetrators of said crimes, is subject to a fine or [to] imprisonment for up to 3 years. The judgment shall be made public.

    2. If a perpetrator of the act referred to in paragraph 1 has acted unintentionally, [such person] shall be subject to a fine or community sentence [(pl)].

    3. No offense referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 shall have been committed if the act was performed as part of artistic or scholarly activity.

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  8. Hmmmm . . .,

    I think the Armenians had better jump in on this.

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  9. Wally says: • Website

    One of longest ’6M Jews’ pieces of propaganda ever presented on http://www.unz.com
    No proof is presented whatsoever.

    Max Denken tries to slide by the utterly impossible ‘holocaust’ fantasy under the guise of Poles & Jews arguing over bragging rights is truly hilarious. A great example of GIGO: ‘garbage in, garbage out.

    Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive

    See Max Denken & his easily debunked ‘holocau$t’ nonsense further debunked in this thread:

    http://www.unz.com/freed/the-future-of-the-jews/

    We’re talking about an alleged ’6M Jews & 5M others’ … 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    Only lies require censorship and jail terms for free speech & Thought Crimes.

    Wise up & see the ‘holocaust’ scam easily & thoroughly debunked here: http://codoh.com
    Join in, No name calling, level playing field debate here: http://forum.codoh.com

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    • Replies: @polskijoe
    You like to troll and spam your fake website: so let me return the favor...

    Where is the proof millions of Germans died in WW2?

    Where are the bodies?

    Why do Germans send reperations to Jews, but not Poles or Russians or Greeks?
    Why did German collaborate with Zionists?
    Why did Germany send commies to Russia?
    Why Does Germany still attack Poland to this day?
    Why does Germany favor Muslims and Jews over Slavs?


    No name calling...

    sodoh.com

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  10. I musty have had some great history instructors and read some fi8nme texts, becauyse when i here the term

    “Polish Concentration Camps”

    I immediately understood that it was not a Polish endeavour, whatever the machinations between Polish Catholics, atheists, Baptists . . . etc and Polish Jews.

    I had always taken the reality as a given. The same would apply to Czechoslovakian Concentration Camps, during WWII were a German invention and application.

    I never knew there was much in the way of not “metoo” on the matter.

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    • Replies: @snag
    I beg your pardon but there's no such a thing like 'Polish Jews' and never was. no one invited them there they're Jewish invaders and squatters that never assimilated. Prior to WWII 3/4 of them couldn't communicate in Polish, 9/10 in writing. They didn't serve, didn't obey Polish law or pay taxes, they were nothing but drag on the rest of society.

    On the top of that they never failed to stab in the back native Poles every time there was an aggressor at the border. That was the case during partition of Poland and during the German an Russian occupation in 1939. Born to stab, scam, snitch ... for profit.

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  11. Gret says:

    Nice write-up, but it will take time to at least make the views more moderate. The dislike for Poland from the West and Jews comes from a spontaneous thinking, characteristic for humans, that is attributing bad traits to poor and peripheral countries

    Eastern Europe is poorer, less important and prestigious = Eastern Europe is violent, stupid, vulgar, lazy, ugly. This is how everybody thinks also of Africa, Latin America or american “rednecks”. While prestigious and important countries are intelligent, insightful, sophisticated

    Anyway, relations between Poland and Middle East are illusory and mostly courteous. Whether Israel likes or dislikes Poland matters very little. What I find pathetic is the expansiveness that polish politicans offer for the Jews. Jews have reacted very harshly and polish politicians use this effusive language

    This is why in politics you should think twice before you use effusive language, because then it’s intellectually and emotionally harder to deal with surprises and setbacks

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  12. Good balanced article (except for the usual cult-marxist nonsence about the MSM…as if some bilge about diversity, homosexuals, whatever makes such “organs” as the WP or NYT ” left’: 40 years spruiking neoliberalism and neoconservativism does NOT “left” make.
    I’m happy to discuss “the holocaust”. When Jews are mentioned, I ask “and”?. I’m looking for these terms: Gypsy, socialist, Jehovah’s Witness, communist, Slav, and so on.
    Jews/Israel have been running to the holocaust well over 70 years now, and its starting to run DRY.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paw
    What is more , now there is one Holocaust too far. Hysteria used against Poland /very proud nation/ , must cover far worse holocaust , like in Bolshevik Russia.
    As usual the huge hysteria is suppose to be solutions and to cover , reasons why there are many centuries long hostilities against the jews. At the same time.
    Every Hysteria is to dominate others. Anyone with experience and contacts , living with them , can talk. But is not permitted.
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  13. WHAT says:
    @Carlton Meyer
    Since this topic is about Poland and World War II, allow me to toss this grenade in the discussion:

    Oct 13, 2010 - Was Churchill Worse than Hitler?

    I just finished Pat Buchanan's new book: "Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War". Good read. All our official history is government propaganda. Sane people agree that America's entry into World War I was a horrible mistake. The war was a stalemate by 1916 and the cause of the war were ill thought alliances, so a truce would have resulted. Instead, American intervention encouraged two more years of senseless fighting that nearly destroyed the major European powers. As a result, the communists took power in Russia and the punitive Armistice was a disaster that resulted in World War II.

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target. He never wanted war with the West, and admired Great Britain. Buchanan exposes Winston Churchill as a crazed warmonger who destroyed the British Empire by pushing it into World War I and World War II. In 1938, Poland's dictator joined Germany and Hungary in gobbling up the post World War I British creation of Czechoslovakia. Hitler then courted Poland as an ally against Stalin.

    But Poland's dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. This made Poland's dictator confident so he refused any talks with Hitler, who invaded and crushed Poland. Hitler hoped that Britain and France were bluffing about war, and forbade anything but defensive combat on the French frontier, but changed his mind after Anglo-French aggressions. One can only guess how things may have turned out if the British had not foolishly promised to back Poland. Although World War II was "won", it killed tens of millions of people, destroyed much of Europe, and left half of Europe under communist tyranny.

    Pat Buchanan deserves great credit for discussing the real history of the "Good War". This contrasts with Tom Brokaw's simplistic 1998 "The Greatest Generation", from which he pocketed millions of dollars for writing a propaganda tale that implies the greatest achievement of our nation is fighting wars. World War II combat veteran Paul Fussell wrote several honest (and unpopular) books about war. He noted that only one million Americans volunteered for World War II, mostly because they needed jobs during the economic depression. The other 11 million were drafted and spent the war disgruntled and scheming for a discharge. Only later did they recall their unselfish crusade for freedom.

    Maybe you should read “Sleepwalkers” by Christopher Clark instead. It actually explains british strategic imperative and why WWI and WWII, as well as preceding Mitteleuropa wars were inevitable.

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  14. What Poland done is to open the Pandora Box, which Netanyahu nor any Jews is able to close. History is now open for debate…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Agree.
    What Israel has done is to open a well-documented criticism of Jewish"eternal victimhood."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/israel-protects-concentration-camp-boss-1194791.html
    "Salomon Morel is wanted by the prosecutor's office in the southern Polish city of Katowice. He is charged with crimes against humanity while he was commander of the Swietochlowice camp... A reply sent to the Polish Justice Ministry from Israeli authorities said that Israel would not extradite Mr Morel. Officials said the crimes with which he is charged are not perceived in Israel as genocide, and so are subject to the statute of limitations... Dorota Boriczek, a camp survivor, remembers Salomon Morel as a barbaric and cruel man who, with his colleagues, was responsible for many killings of inmates. "I knew Morel in the camp. He was a very brutal man. He was young then. He would come in at night. We could hear the cries of the men then. They would beat them and throw the bodies out of the window," Mrs Boriczek, now 68 and living in Ludswigberg, Germany, told The Independent. "I was taken there when I was 14, with my mother. I still don't know why we were there and I still want to know. They told us when we arrived, `You are here, and you are here to die, although nobody will shoot you, because ammunition is too expensive'. ...
    The Polish military prosecutor in Warsaw recently issued an arrest warrant for Helena Brus, formerly Wolinska, now married to an Oxford don. During the 1950s Ms Wolinska worked as a military prosecutor in Warsaw, issuing arrest warrants. Many of those detained under her orders were later hanged. Both Mr Morel and Mrs Brus are Jewish.
    -- Add to these the names of Naftali Frankel, the principal organizer of GULAG (a network of concentration camps in Russia) where millions of Russian citizens perished under horriorrific circumstances, and Lazar Kaganovitch, the principal organizer of Holodomor in Ukraine.
    The article states a logical and highly inconvenient question for the Lobby and the Friends of Israel: "How many Israeli politicians and media mavens commented on the giant portraits of Nazi allies and Jews’ (and Poles’) mass murderers Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych and Yevhen Konovalets, borne by adoring crowds of the “Maidan revolution” in Lvov and Kiev, said “maidan” enjoying the enthusiastic support of at least two Jewish-Ukrainian oligarchs with Israeli citizenship?"
    The Kagans' clan anyone? How about the ongoing proliferation of neo-Nazism in Ukraine and Canada, thanks to the strong collaborative efforts among ziocons and banderites?
    What about the Jewish war criminals (murderers) like Morel and "military prosecutors" like Wolinska?
    , @Art
    What Poland done is to open the Pandora Box, which Netanyahu nor any Jews is able to close. History is now open for debate….

    Exactly -- the longer the debate goes on - the better. The Jews cannot win the six million lie.

    Think peace --- Art
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  15. What a long article for a simple matter.

    Auschwitz was where it was because there was abundant water and coal there, from which synthetic rubber, Buna, was made, high octane airplane fuel and lubrication oil.
    The USA also used the Buna process, as the USA was cut off from all natural rubber, without this IG Farben process it is difficult to see how the uSA could have waged war.
    Even Ben Gurion at the end of 1944 saw Auschwitz as work camps.

    The abundant water makes impossible the stories about huge pits in which bodies were burned, and babies thrown in alive.
    The water level was close under the surface.

    That Poles did not like their jews can be read in many books.
    Gross describes a massacre, I have little reason to doubt it.
    Lithuanians killed their jews in the woods before the Germans were there.
    How many jews Poles and Lithuanians killed, w’ll never know.
    Even in 1967 Poland allowed the jews to go, Gross was one of them who went.
    From various sources my impression is that the hatred of jews found its origin in that jews controlled the economy.

    Bogdan Musial, ´Sowjetische Partisanen 1941 – 1944, Mythos und Wirklichkeit’, Paderborn 2009
    How jews were not admitted into resistance groups.

    Anne Applebaum, ‘Between East and West, Across the borderlands of Europe’, Londen, 1995
    ‘Hitler did horrible things, but he liberated us from the jews’.

    Lonely Planet Guide ‘Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania’, Nicola Williams, Debra Herrmann, Cathryn Kemp, 2003, Victoria, Australia.
    Resistance in Lithuania against restauration of the ghetto, with UN money, in parliament something was said as ‘must the Lithuanians again become the slaves of the jews’

    Dan Jacobson, ‘Heshels Rijk Familiekroniek’, Amsterdam 1998
    The killings of jews by Lithuanians

    Christopher R. Browning, ‘Ordinary Men, Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland’, 1992, 2001, London
    Pictures of jews beaten to death in Kaunas, Lithuania

    Jan T. Gross, ‘Neighbours, The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland, 1941’, 2003, London

    About the present controversy Israel Poland, Poland has become more or less wealthy, and is a EU member, another source of money for Israel, in my opinion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    You seem knowledgeable of this subject. At least, you've linked numerous specific references. I've already been "disagreed" with for saying this, but I was given first hand account of dissolution of Warsaw Jewish ghetto.... that Lithuanians were enlisted (by Germans) to carry out final dispersal, and subsequently the Lithuanians were put on a ship that was [purposely] sunk. Have you ever heard this story?
    , @snag
    Somebody who cites Jan Gross or Anne Applebaum it's someone with an agenda to whitewash Jewish atrocities. Somebody who writes the book like 'Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner of that atrocity is nothing but hasbara goon and zio-crap peddler.

    Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Kaganovich, Yagoda (Jews) responsible for Holodomor a genocide of 8 - 10 million starved to death Ukrainian farmland owners during one winter 1932/33*, a whole segment of society because for who they were which according to their formula constitutes holocaust not to mention ethnic cleansing of Crimean Tatars, again, by Kaganowich and his hand picked goons murdering half of the population on the spot with the remaining shipped to Gulags and other God forsaken places in Siberia designated to die and re-populating Crimea with Jewish settlers.

    *Compare it with the efficiency and costs German concentration camps.

    Somebody who writes 'Gulag: A History' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner is a liar with an agenda.

    Gulags - A forced labor camp system in reality a death camp system was more horrible than Auschwitz run by Matvei Berman and Naftaly Frenkel (founders) their buddies Lev Inzhir a commissar of the Gulag transit and administration, Firin, Rappoport, Kogan, Zhuk, were the commissars of camps and slave labor that supervised the construction of the Belomorsk Canal and other projects responsible for at least 30 million worked/starved to death "enemies" of the revolution. The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis.

    Somebody who writes that you can accommodate and incinerate 1600 people in small barn is insulting our intelligence not to mention that he's making up the participation of Poles in that event. Grosse's version of that account is a product of sick bastard who's parents were saved by some Polish sucker who risked his, his family and often his neighbors life allowing them to produce human maggot like him. Gross is a sociologist not historian as he claims.

    By the way, Auschwitz was chosen because of it's logistic location (middle of concentration of jewish population) and proximity of major railway junction.

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  16. @Carlton Meyer
    Since this topic is about Poland and World War II, allow me to toss this grenade in the discussion:

    Oct 13, 2010 - Was Churchill Worse than Hitler?

    I just finished Pat Buchanan's new book: "Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War". Good read. All our official history is government propaganda. Sane people agree that America's entry into World War I was a horrible mistake. The war was a stalemate by 1916 and the cause of the war were ill thought alliances, so a truce would have resulted. Instead, American intervention encouraged two more years of senseless fighting that nearly destroyed the major European powers. As a result, the communists took power in Russia and the punitive Armistice was a disaster that resulted in World War II.

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target. He never wanted war with the West, and admired Great Britain. Buchanan exposes Winston Churchill as a crazed warmonger who destroyed the British Empire by pushing it into World War I and World War II. In 1938, Poland's dictator joined Germany and Hungary in gobbling up the post World War I British creation of Czechoslovakia. Hitler then courted Poland as an ally against Stalin.

    But Poland's dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. This made Poland's dictator confident so he refused any talks with Hitler, who invaded and crushed Poland. Hitler hoped that Britain and France were bluffing about war, and forbade anything but defensive combat on the French frontier, but changed his mind after Anglo-French aggressions. One can only guess how things may have turned out if the British had not foolishly promised to back Poland. Although World War II was "won", it killed tens of millions of people, destroyed much of Europe, and left half of Europe under communist tyranny.

    Pat Buchanan deserves great credit for discussing the real history of the "Good War". This contrasts with Tom Brokaw's simplistic 1998 "The Greatest Generation", from which he pocketed millions of dollars for writing a propaganda tale that implies the greatest achievement of our nation is fighting wars. World War II combat veteran Paul Fussell wrote several honest (and unpopular) books about war. He noted that only one million Americans volunteered for World War II, mostly because they needed jobs during the economic depression. The other 11 million were drafted and spent the war disgruntled and scheming for a discharge. Only later did they recall their unselfish crusade for freedom.

    Hitler a bad guy, not in the eyes of Germans interviewed in the eighties, who voted for Hitler in the thirties, 1938 was the happiest year in their life.

    Kai S. Schreyber (Hrsg.), ´Warum wir ADOLF HITLER wählten, Jungwähler von 1933/38 berichten’, 2001 Kiel

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  17. Wally says:

    Denken absurdly cites Jan Karski, truly nutter stuff.
    now see:
    A Fake Eyewitness to Mass Murder at Belzec
    By Theodore J. O’Keefe, https://codoh.com/library/document/398/?lang=en
    and:
    ‘the preposterous Jan Karski, a review of his claims’:

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10078&p=85168

    excerpt:
    Karski claims:
    - the Germans used quicklime for mass extermination of Jews
    - trains full of Jews quivered and twitched, their flesh throbbed
    - but he then admitted he had no proof

    more here:

    http://www.cwporter.com/karski.htm

    and much more:

    https://codoh.com/search/?sorting=relevance&q=jan+karski

    “Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish “holocaust” and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the “survivors”? Because it “dishonors the dead”? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble.”
    - Gerard Menuhin / righteous Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

    Just like the ‘truth & fact’ of witchcraft, the ‘holocaust’ scam is just not that difficult to debunk.
    Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable ‘holocaust’ storyline is the message.
    http://www.codoh.com

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  18. @Carlton Meyer
    There are other historical complications, mentioned in my blog:

    Jun 6, 2016 - Appeasing Poland

    We all know the evil Nazi’s invaded Czechoslovakia, but no one mentions that Poland grabbed a chunk first. After a threatening ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen) an area of some 625 square miles with a population of 230,000 people.

    And when Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland a year later, why didn’t the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too? History is far more complex and interesting than the boring comic books we read in American educational institutions.

    Fritz Peter Habel, ´Die Sudeten-Deutschen’, 1992, 2002, München

    There is no doubt that the Tsjechs discriminated the Germans in Sudetenland, then Chechoslovakia.
    This even was the conclusion of a British diplomat, send by London to investigate, around 1938.
    As to the German occupation, Hitler feared Russian bombers, that could easily destroy the Ruhr industries from Tsjech airports.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Sudetenland! The best and highest quality hobs in the world grow there.
    Germans Czechs are beer drinkers. Any underestimation of importance of Sudetenland is a travesty.
    , @Paw
    Typical ideological propagandist , but can not supply any facts. Just throw accusations. Typical for Satans servants. They must do it.
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  19. @Carlton Meyer
    Since this topic is about Poland and World War II, allow me to toss this grenade in the discussion:

    Oct 13, 2010 - Was Churchill Worse than Hitler?

    I just finished Pat Buchanan's new book: "Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War". Good read. All our official history is government propaganda. Sane people agree that America's entry into World War I was a horrible mistake. The war was a stalemate by 1916 and the cause of the war were ill thought alliances, so a truce would have resulted. Instead, American intervention encouraged two more years of senseless fighting that nearly destroyed the major European powers. As a result, the communists took power in Russia and the punitive Armistice was a disaster that resulted in World War II.

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target. He never wanted war with the West, and admired Great Britain. Buchanan exposes Winston Churchill as a crazed warmonger who destroyed the British Empire by pushing it into World War I and World War II. In 1938, Poland's dictator joined Germany and Hungary in gobbling up the post World War I British creation of Czechoslovakia. Hitler then courted Poland as an ally against Stalin.

    But Poland's dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. This made Poland's dictator confident so he refused any talks with Hitler, who invaded and crushed Poland. Hitler hoped that Britain and France were bluffing about war, and forbade anything but defensive combat on the French frontier, but changed his mind after Anglo-French aggressions. One can only guess how things may have turned out if the British had not foolishly promised to back Poland. Although World War II was "won", it killed tens of millions of people, destroyed much of Europe, and left half of Europe under communist tyranny.

    Pat Buchanan deserves great credit for discussing the real history of the "Good War". This contrasts with Tom Brokaw's simplistic 1998 "The Greatest Generation", from which he pocketed millions of dollars for writing a propaganda tale that implies the greatest achievement of our nation is fighting wars. World War II combat veteran Paul Fussell wrote several honest (and unpopular) books about war. He noted that only one million Americans volunteered for World War II, mostly because they needed jobs during the economic depression. The other 11 million were drafted and spent the war disgruntled and scheming for a discharge. Only later did they recall their unselfish crusade for freedom.

    “After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. ”
    There’s nothing I really disagree with in your comment, per se.
    But, i ‘d like to add one point. British strategy had been the same for many years” NO single power, such as France or Spain should control the Continent. So what to do about Germany AND the USSR ? In 1938/9 which appeared the most expansionist ? Which the greater IMMEDIATE threat ? Unencumbered by a Western threat how much power would Germany accumulate moving East ?
    Pick your devil…

    Read More
    • Replies: @WHAT
    Exactly this.
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  20. @Carlton Meyer
    Since this topic is about Poland and World War II, allow me to toss this grenade in the discussion:

    Oct 13, 2010 - Was Churchill Worse than Hitler?

    I just finished Pat Buchanan's new book: "Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War". Good read. All our official history is government propaganda. Sane people agree that America's entry into World War I was a horrible mistake. The war was a stalemate by 1916 and the cause of the war were ill thought alliances, so a truce would have resulted. Instead, American intervention encouraged two more years of senseless fighting that nearly destroyed the major European powers. As a result, the communists took power in Russia and the punitive Armistice was a disaster that resulted in World War II.

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target. He never wanted war with the West, and admired Great Britain. Buchanan exposes Winston Churchill as a crazed warmonger who destroyed the British Empire by pushing it into World War I and World War II. In 1938, Poland's dictator joined Germany and Hungary in gobbling up the post World War I British creation of Czechoslovakia. Hitler then courted Poland as an ally against Stalin.

    But Poland's dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. This made Poland's dictator confident so he refused any talks with Hitler, who invaded and crushed Poland. Hitler hoped that Britain and France were bluffing about war, and forbade anything but defensive combat on the French frontier, but changed his mind after Anglo-French aggressions. One can only guess how things may have turned out if the British had not foolishly promised to back Poland. Although World War II was "won", it killed tens of millions of people, destroyed much of Europe, and left half of Europe under communist tyranny.

    Pat Buchanan deserves great credit for discussing the real history of the "Good War". This contrasts with Tom Brokaw's simplistic 1998 "The Greatest Generation", from which he pocketed millions of dollars for writing a propaganda tale that implies the greatest achievement of our nation is fighting wars. World War II combat veteran Paul Fussell wrote several honest (and unpopular) books about war. He noted that only one million Americans volunteered for World War II, mostly because they needed jobs during the economic depression. The other 11 million were drafted and spent the war disgruntled and scheming for a discharge. Only later did they recall their unselfish crusade for freedom.

    ” But Poland’s dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. ”

    A bit more complicated, Poland feared another split if it remained neutral.
    The British guarantee brought it on the British side.
    But rumour is that even FDR gave a guarantee in August 1939.
    If any country was betrayed by GB and FDR it was Poland.

    Simon Newman, ´March 1939, The British guarantee to Poland, A study in the continuity of British Foreign Policy’, 1976, Oxford

    Comte Jean Szembek, Ancien sous-secrétaire d’État aux Affaires étrangères de Pologne, ‘Journal, 1933 – 1939’, Paris 1952

    Jan Ciechanowski, vormals polnischer Botschafter in den Vereinigten Staaten, ´Vergeblicher Sieg’, Zürich 1948 ( Defeat in Victory, New York, 1947)

    David Irving, ‘Accident – The death of General Sikorsky’, 1979, München (German translation)

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  21. @Carlton Meyer
    There are other historical complications, mentioned in my blog:

    Jun 6, 2016 - Appeasing Poland

    We all know the evil Nazi’s invaded Czechoslovakia, but no one mentions that Poland grabbed a chunk first. After a threatening ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen) an area of some 625 square miles with a population of 230,000 people.

    And when Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland a year later, why didn’t the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too? History is far more complex and interesting than the boring comic books we read in American educational institutions.

    Historians wonder why Hitler was not attacked in early 1938, when the considerable Tsjech army also still existed.
    The combined military might of Poland, France, GB, Tsjechslovakia might have beaten Germany quickly, if necessary strenghtened by the USSR.
    The only possible explanation they can think of is that FDR wanted a long war, in which the USA would emerge as the winner, global leader at the same time.

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  22. utu says:

    Mr. Denken, You have just used up all the ammunition you had by shooting aimlessly. The narrative you are trying to sell is so 20 century. It had some traction in Poland under Soviet umbrella when Poles when paradoxically allowed to entertain nationalistic and patriotic WWII stories about themselves. In which Poles along the Red Army were the bravest and the most noble and obviously they suffered the most and yes, there were also Jews but they were not talked about too much. The fascist Hitlerites were the enemies of the human race and they were the equal opportunity killers. Soviets and not only them did not want to make the WWII story about the Jews. Race and ethnicity did not fit the Marxist Weltanschauung.

    But times have changed and the narrative has shifted. Most of your arguments and numerical data can be undermined so you really do not want to go there. If you and Poland decide to go to fight using this ammunition you are doomed to fail. This is not about the truth anymore. Real bullets or blanks have the same effect. Stop shooting. Nobody really cares about your mother or some Jewish lady in Israel. Besides you are not going to out-whine Jews and out bid them in martyrological olympics. Jews have already won gold, silver and bronze medals in these games. Real man should not want to compete in these olympics anyway.

    Poland has no means to shift the narrative and has no friends to help her in it. Poland is alone. But this is nothing new for Poland. So what can be done? Unfortunately probably nothing with the government Poland has now. But with a truly patriotic government Poland could leverage her desirability to potential suitors.

    First of all military contracts with the US and Israel and future purchases of military equipment should be suspended and supplies should be looked for elsewhere. Instead of F-16 there are Eurofighter and Grippen.

    Next Poland should approach Germany and Russia to let her join the Nord Stream II project and start building a pipeline branch going to one of Polish ports on the Baltic sea.

    And be active in V4 but be more like Czechs or Hungarians because so far you act like American lackey and Czechs and Hungarians are getting irritated with you. Orban has recently expressed impatience that Poland does not want to lead. Be like Czechs who could make American ambassador to shut up and know his place. The same Czechs who you feel so superior to because they did not fight Germans and did not let their Prague to be destroyed as you did with your Warsaw.

    And as far as the WWII and Holocaust Poland can make few preemptive moves. The book by Jan Grabovski of U. of Toronto is about to be published in Poland. It was already widely covered and discussed in Israel. The book claims that Poles are responsible for the death of 200,000 Jews. This is 3.3% of 6 millions. I think Poland should accept this claim without a single objection and offer a pecuniary compensation right away but not to Israel or Jews but to Germany which already has paid for the 6,000,000. It is beneath Israel and Jews to double bill, right?

    Finally you should recapture control over institutions like Jewish Museum in Warsaw and Auschwitz Museum and in the long run hold a plan of closing Auschwitz down and ploughing it over. No more Israeli kids coming for indoctrination to Poland. Let bygones be bygones. And if you care for your Katyn dead so much exhume them and bring them to Poland so you won’t have to go to Russia. Let bygones be bygones.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    The Holocaust is a tool that Jews use to keep the goyim in line. The Germans are either sufficiently cowed or cannot be made to cough up some more cash with sufficient obsequiousness. So now it is the turn of the Poles. Soon all that fine rhetoric about the Soviets being the liberators of Auschwitz will be forgotten. It is ever thus with these types of Jews. Never forgive or forget anything or anyone. Record in the "holy books" for all time. But never ever hold a mirror to oneself and see if one is blameworthy. The silver lining here is that more and more people just don't give a damn for their bloody hypocrisy.
    , @Wally
    said:
    "Finally you should recapture control over institutions like Jewish Museum in Warsaw and Auschwitz Museum and in the long run hold a plan of closing Auschwitz down and ploughing it over."

    Indeed, utu would like that.
    "Ploughing it over" would be one way of hiding the fakery & absurd claims made of structures which could not have functioned as alleged. Not to mention the 'reconstruction' work done AFTER the war.
    Now, science, observation, and logic simply demolish the preposterous claims about Auschwitz.
    A perfect example of science & technology at work are the war time aerial photos taken of Auschwitz . Below, see the aerial photos of Auschwitz and how they have been tampered with to fit the Holocaust narrative.
    https://codoh.com/library/document/5390/?lang=en
    Memorabilia: Examination of the Air Photo Evidence of Auschwitz featuring John Ball
    By John Clive Ball.

    https://youtu.be/pZHxfge_gp8

    See more below, such as:
    Drawn in 'Jews being marched to gas chambers', on a roof.
    http://www.vho.org/D/gzz/BallDachgehe.jpg
    and:
    'Critique of Claims Made by Robert Jan Van Pelt'
    http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html
    and:
    'Altered Aerial Photos and the Shadows of Doom'
    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3249
    and:
    Air Photo Evidence
    https://archive.org/details/AirPhotoEvidenceAuschwitz

    www.codoh.com

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  23. sarz says:

    The author certainly has his knickers in a twist. Must be tough to be on this wavelength all the time. I suggest some sessions of psilocybin. It’s a marvel to see a literate, somewhat informed individual, openly subscribing to the Holocaust tale. Maybe something to do with his mother’s claim of being raped. The Holocaust is the industialised murder of millions of Jews through gassing at select murder-factory sites. Or it’s nothing. The mass murder of Jews by shooting in Lithuania is not the Holocaust. If there were a Holocaust that would be a side note. If the author is sincere in his delusion, he should present his views to the skeptic experts at the forum at codoh.com.

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  24. utu says:

    The Ruderman Family Foundation film with “Polish Holocaust” meme was a missed opportunity. The meme “Polish Holocaust” is good. Instead of getting upset by it the meme should have been embraced. It is just like Jewish Holocaust. 6 millions Polish citizens lost lives during the WWII. They were Poles, Jews, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Belorussians and even Germans.

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  25. Lex says:
    @Carlton Meyer
    There are other historical complications, mentioned in my blog:

    Jun 6, 2016 - Appeasing Poland

    We all know the evil Nazi’s invaded Czechoslovakia, but no one mentions that Poland grabbed a chunk first. After a threatening ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen) an area of some 625 square miles with a population of 230,000 people.

    And when Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland a year later, why didn’t the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too? History is far more complex and interesting than the boring comic books we read in American educational institutions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance

    mutual assistance in case of military invasion from Germany

    Read More
    • Replies: @Carlton Meyer
    You didn't read your own rebuttal link! Yes, the Wiki intro repeats the myth that Britain only promised to defend Poland should Germany invade, but later on it clarifies:

    On 25 August, two days after the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland was signed. The agreement contained promises of mutual military assistance between the nations in the event either was attacked by some "European country".

    and has the text of the agreement:

    " ... in the event of any action which clearly threatened Polish independence, and which the Polish Government accordingly considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power. They have given the Polish Government an assurance to this effect.

    I may add that the French Government have authorised me to make it plain that they stand in the same position in this matter as do His Majesty's Government."

    _________________

    I did learn more from this. Slovakia joined in the invasion of Poland in 1939 and sent 50,000 troops across the border.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

    So why didn't the British declare war on Slovakia too?
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  26. “The United States has willed itself to blindness in all these egregious instances, but it bullies and blackmails Poland under the pretext of “freedom of expression” because Poland no longer wishes to be libeled as the perpetrator of the Holocaust. Who in the Trump administration put this sorry farce in motion?”

    The bullying pre-dates the passage of the Holocaust Bill. Poland is one of a small handful of EU nations not included in the visa-waiver programme. In fact, one of President Trump’s still unfulfilled campaign promises was to remedy that immediately upon taking office.

    One can only wonder, given their geographic location, what level of pressure it will take to push Poland into a hobbesian choice between east and west. I’m surprised Putin isn’t already trying to flip them.

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  27. The article is really pretty cringe-inducing, since it is such a confused jumble. I feel like it requires a comment, but to comment on it requires one to disentangle the mess somewhat.

    As I see it, there are basically two categories of confusion here: intellectual and moral.

    Most of the 7500 word article is devoted to pushing a certain very partisan view of the history. Basically, the author tacitly accepts that the victors’ version of WW2 is broadly correct and the endless demonization of Germans is something just. However, when it somehow splashes over and becomes a demonization of the Poles, then it is unjust. This is very confused, both intellectually and morally. Let’s start with the intellectual confusion here…

    First of all, if (as I see it, anyway…) the central issue here is really freedom of speech, then on that level it doesn’t matter so much which version of history is truthful. I can go onto Amazon and buy numerous books that say Abraham Lincoln was a great man. I can also buy other books (less numerous, but there are some) that say that he was a complete scoundrel. Moreover, the respective books will offer very different interpretations of that period of history, i.e. the American Civil war.

    One can know absolutely nothing about the history of that time period, yet still realize, on purely logical grounds, that both sides cannot be right. Moreover, a genuine advocate of free speech will hold that both sides of the debate have the right to put forward their viewpoint.

    This could be expressed more generally: when you have a debate, one side of the debate is affirming X, the other side is saying “not X”. One side must be wrong surely, but that’s not the point. The point is that you cannot prevail in an intellectual debate by illegalizing the other side’s viewpoint! That should be self-evidently unacceptable!

    That is the central issue intellectually. (At least for me…) Now, the other massive hairy problem in all of this is the following:

    Zionist Jews have ZERO moral standing to condemn the Polish law in question.

    Once you accept the idea that one version of history is the correct one and anybody who disputes it is committing a crime, then you’ve opened Pandora’s box and you cannot then complain what comes out of it. The same people lobbying for Holocaust denial laws throughout the West cannot then turn around and complain about this Polish law! This should be a laughing stock!

    So, to me, perhaps the most central thing about this is the utter hypocrisy of the Zionist Jews condemning this law on free speech grounds! I find the whole thing appalling, particularly as somebody of Jewish descent myself. I feel that Jewish ethnics who feel this way (and I know I cannot possibly be the only one) should more openly condemn this kind of blatant attempt to burn the candle on both ends.

    In general, as I have become more educated about certain matters, with a much more nuanced understanding of real history, I have become painfully aware of just how unfair this endless demonizing of the German people with this comic book version of history is. And again, in general, I think that honest, just Jews (there are some…) should more openly condemn this.

    Now, I agree with this Polish nationalist author that the demonization of Poles over period of history is something completely unjust, but his idea that the endless demonization of Germans is fair — this is a very blinkered understanding of the issues. It is utterly confused — as I said, both intellectually and morally. The author really needed to think through all these issues much more rigorously before embarking on such a long-winded essay.

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    • Agree: jacques sheete, L.K
    • Replies: @iffen
    before embarking on such a long-winded essay

    But I thought word count was your measure of validity and value.
    , @iffen
    iffen says:
    March 11, 2018 at 6:49 pm GMT
    @Jonathan Revusky
    before embarking on such a long-winded essay
    But I thought word count was your measure of validity and value.
    • Troll: Jonathan Revusky

    Shit-eater.
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  28. Tyrion 2 says:

    Great article. Until the last section. Then again, it is so well-balanced and erudite until that last little bit that I’ll be reading and re-reading it again as you’ve earned that by the rest of your piece.

    I’m a free speech guy but this is nothing but an almost imperceptible blemish on Poland’s remarkably moderate and sensible government. It also barely restricts speech at all. It’s almost akin to having UK-style libel laws.

    Anyway, this pointless tantrum will go away and I look forward to more countries moving back into the Polish, Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Italian, Brexit, Trumpian, Israeli, Asian, Latin American and African camp of not buying into open borders extremism.

    Come on Pelosi, Corbyn, Sweden and Germany, your ideas represent a tiny fraction of the world population’s views. You’ve gone rogue. Everyone thinks you’re weird, just not in your tiny bubbles that barely cover 0.1% of the world’s surface. If it weren’t for the wealth and institutional excellence built up by your much more moderate ancestors, you’d be viewed as important as the Branch Davidians or the Shakers or some other group of bizarre self-defeating weirdos. And if you don’t reverse course and tack back very strongly, that is exactly how you and yours will end up. A strange museum anecdote to remind people of what happens to those who purposefully unlearn tbe basic facts of humanity.

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  29. Miro23 says:
    @Carlton Meyer
    Since this topic is about Poland and World War II, allow me to toss this grenade in the discussion:

    Oct 13, 2010 - Was Churchill Worse than Hitler?

    I just finished Pat Buchanan's new book: "Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War". Good read. All our official history is government propaganda. Sane people agree that America's entry into World War I was a horrible mistake. The war was a stalemate by 1916 and the cause of the war were ill thought alliances, so a truce would have resulted. Instead, American intervention encouraged two more years of senseless fighting that nearly destroyed the major European powers. As a result, the communists took power in Russia and the punitive Armistice was a disaster that resulted in World War II.

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target. He never wanted war with the West, and admired Great Britain. Buchanan exposes Winston Churchill as a crazed warmonger who destroyed the British Empire by pushing it into World War I and World War II. In 1938, Poland's dictator joined Germany and Hungary in gobbling up the post World War I British creation of Czechoslovakia. Hitler then courted Poland as an ally against Stalin.

    But Poland's dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. This made Poland's dictator confident so he refused any talks with Hitler, who invaded and crushed Poland. Hitler hoped that Britain and France were bluffing about war, and forbade anything but defensive combat on the French frontier, but changed his mind after Anglo-French aggressions. One can only guess how things may have turned out if the British had not foolishly promised to back Poland. Although World War II was "won", it killed tens of millions of people, destroyed much of Europe, and left half of Europe under communist tyranny.

    Pat Buchanan deserves great credit for discussing the real history of the "Good War". This contrasts with Tom Brokaw's simplistic 1998 "The Greatest Generation", from which he pocketed millions of dollars for writing a propaganda tale that implies the greatest achievement of our nation is fighting wars. World War II combat veteran Paul Fussell wrote several honest (and unpopular) books about war. He noted that only one million Americans volunteered for World War II, mostly because they needed jobs during the economic depression. The other 11 million were drafted and spent the war disgruntled and scheming for a discharge. Only later did they recall their unselfish crusade for freedom.

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target.

    So that was OK then, nothing to worry about – the Germans only wanted an Eastern Empire stretching to the Urals and the Black Sea. And the Japanese only wanted an Asian Empire (including China) – nothing to worry about there either.

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  30. Miro23 says:

    The memo gave the Polish government a three-point ultimatum: either “resolve” this issue –- needless to say to America’s and international Jewry’s satisfaction — or else Poland’s leaders will be barred from White House meetings, U.S. Congress will block funds for joint military projects in Poland including the stationing of U.S. troops there within the NATO framework, and there will be further “dramatic” consequences in case an American citizen is charged under the new law.

    A good opportunity for Poland to finish with the USA. Poland doesn’t have any real “security guarantee” from the US, and any lingering affection for Ronald Reagan among the Poles, is wholly misplaced. The current US administration is just putting Poland in the front line of a fabricated US/Russia conflict – so it’s a good opportunity to remove NATO troops from the country along with their missiles and missile bases.

    Poles, like many other people around the world, have lost contact with the US public, and are realizing that they are dealing instead with the psychotic crowd that cooked up WMD and did 9/11.

    Read More
    • Replies: @polskijoe
    Anglo (in US and UK) with their Jewish money masters and "intellectuals"

    want Europe to be divided. Making sure no group dominates.


    1)They want to prevent Russia-German relations
    2)They want to prevent Polish-Russian relations.


    Poles MUST understand the US will choose Israel and Jews over Poles.


    Many Polish generals know that US will do little to help.
    40% of Poles think NATO would NOT help against major invasion.
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  31. I just finished Pat Buchanan’s new book: “Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War”. Good read. All our official history is government propaganda.

    The book is definitely worth a read and a good antidote to the Commie and All-lied war propaganda fed to us as history.

    He does pussyfoot around the issue of Jews but that’s understandable considering the times and the likely inability to get it published otherwise.

    For those who are curious but not into reading books, Mr B has several good articles at his website that do a good job of introducing people to the truth.

    This, as well, is an excellent intro to a most critical topic for discussion and was written by a Jewish person who was a true scholar.

    “… this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth.
    If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler’s Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions…”

    Murray Rothbard, Revisionism for Our Time
    Mr. Rothbard was an American Jew and an historian of the very highest caliber.

    http://mises.org/daily/2592

    What these guys say should be easier to swallow nowadays since we have so many blatant examples of official war mongers, private, commercial and governmental today.

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  32. Lex says:
    @German_reader

    And we know, presumably, that this term has been used in German national and provincial media
     
    How do you know that? Are there studies documenting this is a widespread term in German media? Because I can't recall ever having read it, certainly not in the sense that it was claimed the extermination camps were somehow under Polish control. If the term is used at all, in most cases it will be due to thoughtlessness, not deliberate obfuscation, and merely in a geographical sense.
    Granted, the Our mothers, our fathers tv series was pretty questionable in some parts and Polish protests were justifed. But there is no organized German campaign to shift responsibility for the Holocaust onto Poland. This exists only in the imagination of Polish right-wingers.

    Germany has not paid reparations even for that, though between 1952 and 2017 it paid so many billions in Deutsche marks and euros in so many reparations agreements with the State of Israel and Jewish Holocaust survivors,

     

    Yes, but Israel didn't get one quarter of pre-war German territory, plus the satisfaction of taking revenge by ethnically cleansing a few million Germans. Bit one-sided to leave this "detail" unmentioned.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/is-new-polish-law-an-attempt-to-whitewash-its-citizens-roles-in-the-holocaust/

    In 1956, a group of former Nazis working as West German intelligence agents coined terminology that arguably became the most viral — and longest lasting — propaganda born out of the former Hitler regime: “Polish death camps.”

    Agency 114, filled with German former members of the Gestapo, SS and SD, was headed by former Nazis Secret Field Police (GFP) sergeant Alfred Benzinger, who is credited with the phrase.

    Benzinger’s goal? To change public discourse and shift the blame for the Holocaust from Germans and Germany to Poland, where most of the Nazi regime’s mass extermination camps were located. And by the time of Benzinger’s propaganda attack, Poland was in the throes of such domestic turmoil that the wordage was hardly a priority.

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    • Agree: polskijoe
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    To change public discourse and shift the blame for the Holocaust from Germans and Germany to Poland,
     
    "The" holocaust itself seems to me to be an attempt to change public discourse and shift the blame for the world wars from the "one world" financiers of the wars onto their main victim, Germany and the Germans.

    ..., is there any man here or any woman, let me say is there any child here, who does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry…and the reason why some nations went into the war against Germany was that they thought Germany would get the commercial advantage of them. The seed of the jealousy, the seed of the deep-seated hatred was hot, successful commercial and industrial rivalry…

    This war, in its inception was a commercial and industrial war. It was not a political war.
    -Woodrow Wilson, Address at the Coliseum in St. Louis, Missouri, September 5, 1919
    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=117365
     

    [Lloyd George] said, “ The truth is that we have got our way. We have got most of the things we set out to get. If you had told the British people twelve months ago that they would have secured what they have, they would have laughed you to scorn. The German Navy has been handed over; the German mercantile shipping has been handed over, and the German colonies have been given up. One of our chief trade competitors has been most seriously crippled and our Allies are about to become her biggest creditors.That is no small achievement. In addition, we have destroyed the menace to our Indian possessions.”

    -David Lloyd George, as quoted in LORD RIDDELL’S INTIMATE DIARY OF THE PEACE CONFERENCE AND AFTER , 1918—1923, p 42 (diary entry of 30 March 1919).

    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.189747/2015.189747.Lord-Riddells-Intimate-Diary-Of-The-Peace-Conference-And-After_djvu.txt

     

    For those who may want to whine that the comment is off topic, WW2 was little more than an extension of WW1 which Churchill himself admitted in a rare moment of lucidity and truthfulness.
    , @German_reader

    To change public discourse and shift the blame for the Holocaust from Germans and Germany to Poland
     
    If that ever happened, those ex-Nazis weren't very successful. Certainly not in Germany.
    The more likely explanation is quite simply that a lot of Jews have a negative perception of Poland, for whatever reason. This has been known for a long time (e.g. even back in the 1970s Claude Lanzmann's Shoah was criticized for its depiction of supposedly antisemitic Polish peasants) and is hardly news. Blaming it on some German conspiracy is just the usual paranoid nonsense which unfortunately seems to be widespread among the Polish right.
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  33. Lex says:

    Jews were furious that Poland regained independence since they were counting on creating German protectorate of Judeopolonia. Here is how Zionists reacted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_S._Gibson#The_Jewish_Question

    [MORE]

    Felix Frankfurter (later Associate Justice at the Supreme Court) wrote to Woodrow Wilson (May 22, 1919) that “the Polish Government must be bullied and browbeaten into quitting its policy of extermination and persecution.”

    On 14 June 1919, Gibson was called by Colonel House to a meeting with the fabled justice and his protégé, Felix Frankfurter. Gibson not only was at a disadvantage because of Brandeis’ exalted status but also because his appointment as ambassador to Poland had yet to be confirmed by the United States Senate. In Gibson’s words, the two Zionists opened what the young diplomat later called the ‘prosecution’ by saying that ‘I had done more mischief to the Jewish race than anyone who had lived in the last century. They said…that my reports on the Jewish question had gone around the world and had undone their work…. They finally said that I had stated that the stories of excesses against the Jews were exaggerated, to which I replied that they certainly were and I should think any Jew would be glad to know it.”

    Neff adds that “Frankfurter claimed that Gibson ‘had no right to make reports to the department in regard to Jewish matters and should have ‘refused’ on the ground that I could not possibly learn enough about them to make even general observations.’ Frankfurter then hinted that if Gibson continued his reports the Zionists would block his confirmation as ambassador to Poland by the Senate.”

    A letter Gibson wrote to his mother on 27 June 1919, three days after his meeting with Brandeis and Frankfurter, casts an interesting light on own his state of mind at the time: “I went down to the Relief Administration where I had two solid hours with Lewis Strauss [Herbert Hoover’s private secretary] on the Jewish question. I find that most of the people are overwrought and have reached that stage where they unconsciously want to believe every exaggerated yarn about excesses against the Jews. They take it as prejudice if you question any story no matter whether they know where it comes from or not, so long as it makes out a case against the Poles and shows that the Jews are suffering. They are in a bad situation but you can’t help the patient by treating him for an ailment he does not suffer from. I think that at the end of two hours I had convinced Lewis that I was not a Jew baiter and that I really want to help even if not in his simple way which consists chiefly in blackguarding the Polish Government for everything to be found in any report, no matter what its source, its foundation or its inspiration. I can see that there will be a tremendous amount of patient talking to be done among the American Jews before they will be willing to abandon the idea of curing all the ills of their people by one blast at the Polish Government. They have got to make up their minds to work untiringly with the Government and not against it, and if they do I am convinced they can accomplish great things.”

    As for the somewhat surprising allegation that Gibson’s report had “undone their work for months” it clearly pointed to the fact that the Zionists, who had indeed been working hard to impose a Minorities Treaty on Poland, needed as many accounts of exactions against the Jews as could e found to further their cause. Although the Minorities Treaty was indeed signed a few days after the confrontation, Gibson’s report ran counter to their interests.

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  34. WHAT says:
    @animalogic
    "After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. "
    There's nothing I really disagree with in your comment, per se.
    But, i 'd like to add one point. British strategy had been the same for many years" NO single power, such as France or Spain should control the Continent. So what to do about Germany AND the USSR ? In 1938/9 which appeared the most expansionist ? Which the greater IMMEDIATE threat ? Unencumbered by a Western threat how much power would Germany accumulate moving East ?
    Pick your devil...

    Exactly this.

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  35. mp says:

    Everyone knows how horrible the Holocaust(TM) was, until you ask exactly what it was that happened? Then, the claims evaporate one by one, once exposed to the light of truth. That is why it is against the law to investigate the claims in much of Europe. The fact that non-Jews go along with this lunacy is…well, it’s lunacy.

    The Poland thing is just a continuing battle between two religions: Catholicism and Jewish materialism, the latter whose God is money (thanks for pointing that out, Karl) and Holocostism, which is the gift that keeps on giving. The H-word is supposed to make them immune from criticism, because they’ve “suffered” so much at the hands of gentiles.

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  36. When dealing with such subjects, it may be counter productive to reference Wikipedia.

    Here’s one reason why.:

    CAMERA [the pro-Israel group (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)] called for volunteers to secretly work on editing Wikipedia entries. It emphasized the importance of keeping the project secret. Volunteers were schooled in ways to elude detection. After they signed up as editors, they were to “avoid editing Israel-related articles for a short period of time.”

    https://israelpalestinenews.org/israel-partisans-work-censor-internet/

    The slime is everywhere, and given their subversion and clandestine activities, can there be little wonder that the trolls are so paranoid?

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  37. @Lex
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/is-new-polish-law-an-attempt-to-whitewash-its-citizens-roles-in-the-holocaust/

    In 1956, a group of former Nazis working as West German intelligence agents coined terminology that arguably became the most viral — and longest lasting — propaganda born out of the former Hitler regime: “Polish death camps.”

    Agency 114, filled with German former members of the Gestapo, SS and SD, was headed by former Nazis Secret Field Police (GFP) sergeant Alfred Benzinger, who is credited with the phrase.

    Benzinger’s goal? To change public discourse and shift the blame for the Holocaust from Germans and Germany to Poland, where most of the Nazi regime’s mass extermination camps were located. And by the time of Benzinger’s propaganda attack, Poland was in the throes of such domestic turmoil that the wordage was hardly a priority.
     

    To change public discourse and shift the blame for the Holocaust from Germans and Germany to Poland,

    “The” holocaust itself seems to me to be an attempt to change public discourse and shift the blame for the world wars from the “one world” financiers of the wars onto their main victim, Germany and the Germans.

    …, is there any man here or any woman, let me say is there any child here, who does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry…and the reason why some nations went into the war against Germany was that they thought Germany would get the commercial advantage of them. The seed of the jealousy, the seed of the deep-seated hatred was hot, successful commercial and industrial rivalry…

    This war, in its inception was a commercial and industrial war. It was not a political war.
    -Woodrow Wilson, Address at the Coliseum in St. Louis, Missouri, September 5, 1919

    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=117365

    [Lloyd George] said, “ The truth is that we have got our way. We have got most of the things we set out to get. If you had told the British people twelve months ago that they would have secured what they have, they would have laughed you to scorn. The German Navy has been handed over; the German mercantile shipping has been handed over, and the German colonies have been given up. One of our chief trade competitors has been most seriously crippled and our Allies are about to become her biggest creditors.That is no small achievement. In addition, we have destroyed the menace to our Indian possessions.”

    -David Lloyd George, as quoted in LORD RIDDELL’S INTIMATE DIARY OF THE PEACE CONFERENCE AND AFTER , 1918—1923, p 42 (diary entry of 30 March 1919).

    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.189747/2015.189747.Lord-Riddells-Intimate-Diary-Of-The-Peace-Conference-And-After_djvu.txt

    For those who may want to whine that the comment is off topic, WW2 was little more than an extension of WW1 which Churchill himself admitted in a rare moment of lucidity and truthfulness.

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  38. Vojkan says:

    I must admit that as a Serb I can’t help but relish in some “schadenfreude” when I see how butthurt by the Zionists the Poles feel now, the extraordinary talent the Zionists seem to have in producing anti-semites where there were none before notwithstanding.

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  39. Z-man says:

    Holy shit can this hymie write a load or what! I stopped reading after I picked up this gem.

    In Poland, the tempers boil, but the supposedly “far-right” government is strangely timid in this matter.

    They know to beware the power of the Cabal.

    That’s it, Poland must be put on notice; sanctions and possible air strikes by the ZOG ‘ed puppet regime of the USA.

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  40. @jilles dykstra
    Fritz Peter Habel, ´Die Sudeten-Deutschen’, 1992, 2002, München

    There is no doubt that the Tsjechs discriminated the Germans in Sudetenland, then Chechoslovakia.
    This even was the conclusion of a British diplomat, send by London to investigate, around 1938.
    As to the German occupation, Hitler feared Russian bombers, that could easily destroy the Ruhr industries from Tsjech airports.

    Sudetenland! The best and highest quality hobs in the world grow there.
    Germans Czechs are beer drinkers. Any underestimation of importance of Sudetenland is a travesty.

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  41. @Lex
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/is-new-polish-law-an-attempt-to-whitewash-its-citizens-roles-in-the-holocaust/

    In 1956, a group of former Nazis working as West German intelligence agents coined terminology that arguably became the most viral — and longest lasting — propaganda born out of the former Hitler regime: “Polish death camps.”

    Agency 114, filled with German former members of the Gestapo, SS and SD, was headed by former Nazis Secret Field Police (GFP) sergeant Alfred Benzinger, who is credited with the phrase.

    Benzinger’s goal? To change public discourse and shift the blame for the Holocaust from Germans and Germany to Poland, where most of the Nazi regime’s mass extermination camps were located. And by the time of Benzinger’s propaganda attack, Poland was in the throes of such domestic turmoil that the wordage was hardly a priority.
     

    To change public discourse and shift the blame for the Holocaust from Germans and Germany to Poland

    If that ever happened, those ex-Nazis weren’t very successful. Certainly not in Germany.
    The more likely explanation is quite simply that a lot of Jews have a negative perception of Poland, for whatever reason. This has been known for a long time (e.g. even back in the 1970s Claude Lanzmann’s Shoah was criticized for its depiction of supposedly antisemitic Polish peasants) and is hardly news. Blaming it on some German conspiracy is just the usual paranoid nonsense which unfortunately seems to be widespread among the Polish right.

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  42. The holocaust involved more than the jews, there were many other races and religions that were sent to death in the camps, and all of these are small in comparison the what the communist jews in Russia did to the Russian people, an estimated 50 to 60 million were killed from 1917 to 1953.

    Read More
    • Replies: @polskijoe

    The holocaust involved more than the jews, there were many other races and religions that were sent to death in the camps,
     
    Agreed. Actually the Jews were a minority of those killed.

    , and all of these are small in comparison the what the communist jews in Russia did to the Russian people, an estimated 50 to 60 million were killed from 1917 to 1953.
     
    Completely disagree. Those figures outdated and disproven. Most of those estimates were made before known files were realeased. Some of those estimates were made decades ago.

    Victims killed by Stalin included Russians but also large amounts of nonRussians.
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  43. Ivan says:
    @utu
    Mr. Denken, You have just used up all the ammunition you had by shooting aimlessly. The narrative you are trying to sell is so 20 century. It had some traction in Poland under Soviet umbrella when Poles when paradoxically allowed to entertain nationalistic and patriotic WWII stories about themselves. In which Poles along the Red Army were the bravest and the most noble and obviously they suffered the most and yes, there were also Jews but they were not talked about too much. The fascist Hitlerites were the enemies of the human race and they were the equal opportunity killers. Soviets and not only them did not want to make the WWII story about the Jews. Race and ethnicity did not fit the Marxist Weltanschauung.

    But times have changed and the narrative has shifted. Most of your arguments and numerical data can be undermined so you really do not want to go there. If you and Poland decide to go to fight using this ammunition you are doomed to fail. This is not about the truth anymore. Real bullets or blanks have the same effect. Stop shooting. Nobody really cares about your mother or some Jewish lady in Israel. Besides you are not going to out-whine Jews and out bid them in martyrological olympics. Jews have already won gold, silver and bronze medals in these games. Real man should not want to compete in these olympics anyway.

    Poland has no means to shift the narrative and has no friends to help her in it. Poland is alone. But this is nothing new for Poland. So what can be done? Unfortunately probably nothing with the government Poland has now. But with a truly patriotic government Poland could leverage her desirability to potential suitors.

    First of all military contracts with the US and Israel and future purchases of military equipment should be suspended and supplies should be looked for elsewhere. Instead of F-16 there are Eurofighter and Grippen.

    Next Poland should approach Germany and Russia to let her join the Nord Stream II project and start building a pipeline branch going to one of Polish ports on the Baltic sea.

    And be active in V4 but be more like Czechs or Hungarians because so far you act like American lackey and Czechs and Hungarians are getting irritated with you. Orban has recently expressed impatience that Poland does not want to lead. Be like Czechs who could make American ambassador to shut up and know his place. The same Czechs who you feel so superior to because they did not fight Germans and did not let their Prague to be destroyed as you did with your Warsaw.

    And as far as the WWII and Holocaust Poland can make few preemptive moves. The book by Jan Grabovski of U. of Toronto is about to be published in Poland. It was already widely covered and discussed in Israel. The book claims that Poles are responsible for the death of 200,000 Jews. This is 3.3% of 6 millions. I think Poland should accept this claim without a single objection and offer a pecuniary compensation right away but not to Israel or Jews but to Germany which already has paid for the 6,000,000. It is beneath Israel and Jews to double bill, right?

    Finally you should recapture control over institutions like Jewish Museum in Warsaw and Auschwitz Museum and in the long run hold a plan of closing Auschwitz down and ploughing it over. No more Israeli kids coming for indoctrination to Poland. Let bygones be bygones. And if you care for your Katyn dead so much exhume them and bring them to Poland so you won't have to go to Russia. Let bygones be bygones.

    The Holocaust is a tool that Jews use to keep the goyim in line. The Germans are either sufficiently cowed or cannot be made to cough up some more cash with sufficient obsequiousness. So now it is the turn of the Poles. Soon all that fine rhetoric about the Soviets being the liberators of Auschwitz will be forgotten. It is ever thus with these types of Jews. Never forgive or forget anything or anyone. Record in the “holy books” for all time. But never ever hold a mirror to oneself and see if one is blameworthy. The silver lining here is that more and more people just don’t give a damn for their bloody hypocrisy.

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  44. Beckow says:
    @snag
    Concentrate and try to stay on the subject - In regard to Polish–Czechoslovak border conflicts it wouldn't hurt to refuel your tank with a 'knowledge' up there with facts instead rehashing this crap whenever and wherever you can ,...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts

    In Polish
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsko-czechos%C5%82owackie_konflikty_graniczne

    What Poland did in 1938 after Munich to Czechoslovakia was identical to what Nazi Germany did. A multi-ethnic territory that legally belonged to a neighbouring country was occupied by Poland.

    The same is true about the Soviet Union’s annexation of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus in 1939. They occupied areas that were inhabited mostly by Ukrainians and Belorussians. And also after Germany attacked Poland. If Poland did it, why shouldn’t others do it to Poland?

    Different nations, different scale, but exactly the same principle – ‘protect people of your nationality’ living in neighbouring countries.

    The fact that Poland did the same thing to Czechoslovakia undermines Polish claims to some martyr purity. Would you stop with the preachy pontificating about Poland always being ‘just a victim‘? (And Wiki as a source? Right, I am sure the Polish version is really ‘nuanced’.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen

    right, I am sure the Polish version is really ‘nuanced’.
     
    Sure it is.

    (1) Czechoslovakia reached to Poland first, proposing Zaolzie in exchange for alliance. Poland instead issued ultimatum, which Czechoslovakia accepted.

    (2) Zaolzie was first divided in local agreement based on ethnic lines in 1919. Czechs violated the local agreement, attacking totally unprepared local Polish units. Local Poles were so sure the agreement was final that they were sending best unit to the Lviv!

    (3) Czechs then forced Polish government to resign from demands on plebiscite in 1921, when Soviet army was approaching Warsaw. (2)+(3) poisoned Polish-Czechoslovakian relationships, and Czechs arrogant continous innuendos that Poland is just backward primitive state which will soon collapse had not helped either.

    I still think that we were wrong in 1938, and because of that action we lost moral rights to Zaolzie - but I'd say Czechs' behaviour in 1919 was really, really awful and shortsighted.
    , @polskijoe
    Doesnt undermine nothing.

    How many Czechoslovaks were killed by Poles? How many cities were flattened?

    vs

    How many Poles were killed by Nazi homos? How many cities were flattened.


    *Poland is not innocent definetly, but to equate these type of things is nonsense*


    People like to also say Poland "collaberated with Nazis" because of some non aggression pact.

    What matters is alliances and mass murdering.

    (During WW2 and pre times there were many intersecting Non Aggrsesion Pacts between many parties).
    , @snag
    One more time, concentrate, read what's provided to you and spare me this Soviet Union’s, Western Ukraine and Western Belarus dancing. You're already admitted that it was a 'multi-ethnic territory' now read the history.
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  45. The 2 nations that suffered the most at the hands of the Nazis were Poland and Byelorussia (Balarus).

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    • Replies: @polskijoe
    Quite true, percentage wise during WW2:

    Belarus lost 22% of citizens
    Poland lost 16% of citizens
    Ukraine lost 16% citizens
    Russia lost 13% of citizens
    Baltic countries lost 12% citizens.

    Poland, Belarus, Russia 9/10 were caused by Nazi homos.
    Ukraine and Baltics is more complicated. But for Ukraine Im guessing 7/10 caused by Nazis
    and Baltics, 5/10? (someone with more knowledge on Ukraine and Baltics can correct me).
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  46. Wally says:
    @utu
    Mr. Denken, You have just used up all the ammunition you had by shooting aimlessly. The narrative you are trying to sell is so 20 century. It had some traction in Poland under Soviet umbrella when Poles when paradoxically allowed to entertain nationalistic and patriotic WWII stories about themselves. In which Poles along the Red Army were the bravest and the most noble and obviously they suffered the most and yes, there were also Jews but they were not talked about too much. The fascist Hitlerites were the enemies of the human race and they were the equal opportunity killers. Soviets and not only them did not want to make the WWII story about the Jews. Race and ethnicity did not fit the Marxist Weltanschauung.

    But times have changed and the narrative has shifted. Most of your arguments and numerical data can be undermined so you really do not want to go there. If you and Poland decide to go to fight using this ammunition you are doomed to fail. This is not about the truth anymore. Real bullets or blanks have the same effect. Stop shooting. Nobody really cares about your mother or some Jewish lady in Israel. Besides you are not going to out-whine Jews and out bid them in martyrological olympics. Jews have already won gold, silver and bronze medals in these games. Real man should not want to compete in these olympics anyway.

    Poland has no means to shift the narrative and has no friends to help her in it. Poland is alone. But this is nothing new for Poland. So what can be done? Unfortunately probably nothing with the government Poland has now. But with a truly patriotic government Poland could leverage her desirability to potential suitors.

    First of all military contracts with the US and Israel and future purchases of military equipment should be suspended and supplies should be looked for elsewhere. Instead of F-16 there are Eurofighter and Grippen.

    Next Poland should approach Germany and Russia to let her join the Nord Stream II project and start building a pipeline branch going to one of Polish ports on the Baltic sea.

    And be active in V4 but be more like Czechs or Hungarians because so far you act like American lackey and Czechs and Hungarians are getting irritated with you. Orban has recently expressed impatience that Poland does not want to lead. Be like Czechs who could make American ambassador to shut up and know his place. The same Czechs who you feel so superior to because they did not fight Germans and did not let their Prague to be destroyed as you did with your Warsaw.

    And as far as the WWII and Holocaust Poland can make few preemptive moves. The book by Jan Grabovski of U. of Toronto is about to be published in Poland. It was already widely covered and discussed in Israel. The book claims that Poles are responsible for the death of 200,000 Jews. This is 3.3% of 6 millions. I think Poland should accept this claim without a single objection and offer a pecuniary compensation right away but not to Israel or Jews but to Germany which already has paid for the 6,000,000. It is beneath Israel and Jews to double bill, right?

    Finally you should recapture control over institutions like Jewish Museum in Warsaw and Auschwitz Museum and in the long run hold a plan of closing Auschwitz down and ploughing it over. No more Israeli kids coming for indoctrination to Poland. Let bygones be bygones. And if you care for your Katyn dead so much exhume them and bring them to Poland so you won't have to go to Russia. Let bygones be bygones.

    said:
    “Finally you should recapture control over institutions like Jewish Museum in Warsaw and Auschwitz Museum and in the long run hold a plan of closing Auschwitz down and ploughing it over.”

    Indeed, utu would like that.
    “Ploughing it over” would be one way of hiding the fakery & absurd claims made of structures which could not have functioned as alleged. Not to mention the ‘reconstruction’ work done AFTER the war.
    Now, science, observation, and logic simply demolish the preposterous claims about Auschwitz.
    A perfect example of science & technology at work are the war time aerial photos taken of Auschwitz . Below, see the aerial photos of Auschwitz and how they have been tampered with to fit the Holocaust narrative.

    https://codoh.com/library/document/5390/?lang=en

    Memorabilia: Examination of the Air Photo Evidence of Auschwitz featuring John Ball
    By John Clive Ball.

    See more below, such as:
    Drawn in ‘Jews being marched to gas chambers’, on a roof. and:
    ‘Critique of Claims Made by Robert Jan Van Pelt’

    http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html

    and:
    ‘Altered Aerial Photos and the Shadows of Doom’

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3249

    and:
    Air Photo Evidence

    https://archive.org/details/AirPhotoEvidenceAuschwitz

    http://www.codoh.com

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  47. MLK says:

    Reading this I felt that now familiar warm feeling that began the day POTUS Trump took the oath. Slowly but (hopefully) surely Americans are getting back to our own business, and leaving this sort of hoo-ha to foreigners and interested resident ethnics.

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  48. As always, the article is just a pretext to launch yet another hysterical American attack on the EU. I would guess that the shadowy author, who seems to exist only on an anti-Muslim hate site called Gates of Vienna, is seeking to use this issue to drive a wedge between Poland and the EU which, even if anybody in Poland actually reads the article, is unlikely to succeed inasmuch as Poland’s only alternative to the EU is Putin’s tanks.
    The crazy thing about the “crisis”, though, is that there isn’t a crisis! As the author points out, there is no “Polish bill to outlaw talk of Poles’ complicity in the Nazis’ crimes”. According to the BBC’s translation, the bill provides that “whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes committed by the Third German Reich … shall be subject to a fine or a penalty of imprisonment of up to three years”. The Polish nation and the Polish State, not individual Poles or private Polish groups, and even then, only if it’s “against the facts”. During the period in question, the entire territory of the Polish Republic was under German or Soviet occupation, so it’s hard to see how the Polish State could have any responsibility for the death camps on its territory. There wasn’t even a local “quisling” Polish government. As for the Polish nation, that is to say, the Polish people in its entirety, as an ethnic group, it’s hard to see, without even a quisling government claiming to act on their behalf and which, it might be alleged, most of them supported, how they could be held responsible for anything the Germans did while in their country. The individual responsibility of any individual Pole for conduct under the occupation is untouched and unchallenged. At first glance, therefore, the bill appears to be absurd and unnecessary.
    My best guess is that’s what’s behind it is the question of property rights: foreign, mainly American or Israeli, Jews claiming entitlement to property on the basis that an ancestor of theirs was improperly deprived of it during the German occupation. In other words, not just a doctrine of “collective guilt” but a sort of “hereditary collective guilt”. The communist regime seized all property and after the fall of the dictatorship, houses, apartments, business premises etc. were sold off, often to the people who actually occupied them. What people fear is that someone will now come along and claim the property that they thought they had bought and paid for, forcing the Polish government to buy them off or see its own citizens evicted from the property. To what extent that has, or is actually happening, I don’t know.

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    • Replies: @j2
    I may be wrong, but I think is is something like this. Blocks of flats were never nationalized and houses in city centers very often belonged to Jews. After Communism, Poland has given blocks of flats to the descendants of the owners who died or disappeared in the war. There is a condition that the new owner must live in Poland, thus American Jews cannot claim this property yet. Factories, houses of owners of factories, and such were nationalized, but not blocks of flats, houses and so on. The blocks were in poor condition after Communism. People living in flats could purchase them soon after Commune. I do not know if restoring the ownership of the block changes the state of purchased flats, probably not. Those who did not purchase the flats at that time? I do not know what with them.

    The holocaust law problem is artificial and the real reason is somewhere else. The new Polish law does not limit freedom of speech. Holocaust denial laws limit research of history. Fifty years ago there was an episode when Jews were thought to have taken over that country, another ZOG, but they were ousted. It is called a period of anti-Semitism. Maybe it explains Jewish attitudes towards Poland. A country got off the loop, not good. But I think you maybe correct, it may be an economic issue, yet another attempt to benefit on holocaust, but maybe the time for that story is running out.
    , @Lex
    Szewach Weiss(former ambassador of Israel to Poland and Chairman of the Knesset) - so called "friend of Poland" - claims that Poland has to pay out at least 65 billion dollars to Jews because it is Poland's moral obligation since Germans committed their crimes on Polish soil. I am not distorting his message in any way, that's what he said.
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  49. annamaria says:
    @Dan Herman
    What Poland done is to open the Pandora Box, which Netanyahu nor any Jews is able to close. History is now open for debate.....

    Agree.
    What Israel has done is to open a well-documented criticism of Jewish”eternal victimhood.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/israel-protects-concentration-camp-boss-1194791.html

    “Salomon Morel is wanted by the prosecutor’s office in the southern Polish city of Katowice. He is charged with crimes against humanity while he was commander of the Swietochlowice camp… A reply sent to the Polish Justice Ministry from Israeli authorities said that Israel would not extradite Mr Morel. Officials said the crimes with which he is charged are not perceived in Israel as genocide, and so are subject to the statute of limitations… Dorota Boriczek, a camp survivor, remembers Salomon Morel as a barbaric and cruel man who, with his colleagues, was responsible for many killings of inmates. “I knew Morel in the camp. He was a very brutal man. He was young then. He would come in at night. We could hear the cries of the men then. They would beat them and throw the bodies out of the window,” Mrs Boriczek, now 68 and living in Ludswigberg, Germany, told The Independent. “I was taken there when I was 14, with my mother. I still don’t know why we were there and I still want to know. They told us when we arrived, `You are here, and you are here to die, although nobody will shoot you, because ammunition is too expensive’. …
    The Polish military prosecutor in Warsaw recently issued an arrest warrant for Helena Brus, formerly Wolinska, now married to an Oxford don. During the 1950s Ms Wolinska worked as a military prosecutor in Warsaw, issuing arrest warrants. Many of those detained under her orders were later hanged. Both Mr Morel and Mrs Brus are Jewish.
    – Add to these the names of Naftali Frankel, the principal organizer of GULAG (a network of concentration camps in Russia) where millions of Russian citizens perished under horriorrific circumstances, and Lazar Kaganovitch, the principal organizer of Holodomor in Ukraine.
    The article states a logical and highly inconvenient question for the Lobby and the Friends of Israel: “How many Israeli politicians and media mavens commented on the giant portraits of Nazi allies and Jews’ (and Poles’) mass murderers Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych and Yevhen Konovalets, borne by adoring crowds of the “Maidan revolution” in Lvov and Kiev, said “maidan” enjoying the enthusiastic support of at least two Jewish-Ukrainian oligarchs with Israeli citizenship?”
    The Kagans’ clan anyone? How about the ongoing proliferation of neo-Nazism in Ukraine and Canada, thanks to the strong collaborative efforts among ziocons and banderites?
    What about the Jewish war criminals (murderers) like Morel and “military prosecutors” like Wolinska?

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    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    With all due respect please check your basic calculus.
    She was 14 taken to camp and she is now 68? Your numbers simply do not add up!!!!
    , @Thales the Milesian
    Annamaria:

    Please some corrections:

    It is not Lvov. It is Lwow, a temporarily lost region of Poland.

    The helot-in-chief, Bandera, should be properly addressed by his helot name, Consul 1.

    This was the name given to him by Master Hitler and later, the CIA.
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  50. Razparuk says:
    @German_reader

    And we know, presumably, that this term has been used in German national and provincial media
     
    How do you know that? Are there studies documenting this is a widespread term in German media? Because I can't recall ever having read it, certainly not in the sense that it was claimed the extermination camps were somehow under Polish control. If the term is used at all, in most cases it will be due to thoughtlessness, not deliberate obfuscation, and merely in a geographical sense.
    Granted, the Our mothers, our fathers tv series was pretty questionable in some parts and Polish protests were justifed. But there is no organized German campaign to shift responsibility for the Holocaust onto Poland. This exists only in the imagination of Polish right-wingers.

    Germany has not paid reparations even for that, though between 1952 and 2017 it paid so many billions in Deutsche marks and euros in so many reparations agreements with the State of Israel and Jewish Holocaust survivors,

     

    Yes, but Israel didn't get one quarter of pre-war German territory, plus the satisfaction of taking revenge by ethnically cleansing a few million Germans. Bit one-sided to leave this "detail" unmentioned.

    Sorry but polish teritory was 383 000km2 before II WW, after is 312 000 km2-we didn’t asked for “change teritory” . We lost this cause decision of USA,USSR,UK so Germans have blame them or Hitler…ur choice

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    • Replies: @byrresheim
    Let's blame Hitler, that opens up a lot less questions.
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  51. Art says:
    @Dan Herman
    What Poland done is to open the Pandora Box, which Netanyahu nor any Jews is able to close. History is now open for debate.....

    What Poland done is to open the Pandora Box, which Netanyahu nor any Jews is able to close. History is now open for debate….

    Exactly — the longer the debate goes on – the better. The Jews cannot win the six million lie.

    Think peace — Art

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    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Hey Art,

    I've found you, you 70 year old crazy lunatic!

    Arthur Jones formerly of the American Nazi Party. You're a national embarrassment and a slur on the Republican party.

    Why not boost them by dropping out and declaring that they are the opposite of Nazis and so you had to leave?

    Best regards,

    Me.

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  52. RobinG says:
    @jilles dykstra
    What a long article for a simple matter.

    Auschwitz was where it was because there was abundant water and coal there, from which synthetic rubber, Buna, was made, high octane airplane fuel and lubrication oil.
    The USA also used the Buna process, as the USA was cut off from all natural rubber, without this IG Farben process it is difficult to see how the uSA could have waged war.
    Even Ben Gurion at the end of 1944 saw Auschwitz as work camps.

    The abundant water makes impossible the stories about huge pits in which bodies were burned, and babies thrown in alive.
    The water level was close under the surface.

    That Poles did not like their jews can be read in many books.
    Gross describes a massacre, I have little reason to doubt it.
    Lithuanians killed their jews in the woods before the Germans were there.
    How many jews Poles and Lithuanians killed, w'll never know.
    Even in 1967 Poland allowed the jews to go, Gross was one of them who went.
    From various sources my impression is that the hatred of jews found its origin in that jews controlled the economy.

    Bogdan Musial, ´Sowjetische Partisanen 1941 – 1944, Mythos und Wirklichkeit’, Paderborn 2009
    How jews were not admitted into resistance groups.

    Anne Applebaum, ‘Between East and West, Across the borderlands of Europe’, Londen, 1995
    'Hitler did horrible things, but he liberated us from the jews'.

    Lonely Planet Guide 'Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania', Nicola Williams, Debra Herrmann, Cathryn Kemp, 2003, Victoria, Australia.
    Resistance in Lithuania against restauration of the ghetto, with UN money, in parliament something was said as 'must the Lithuanians again become the slaves of the jews'

    Dan Jacobson, ‘Heshels Rijk Familiekroniek’, Amsterdam 1998
    The killings of jews by Lithuanians

    Christopher R. Browning, ‘Ordinary Men, Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland’, 1992, 2001, London
    Pictures of jews beaten to death in Kaunas, Lithuania

    Jan T. Gross, ‘Neighbours, The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland, 1941’, 2003, London

    About the present controversy Israel Poland, Poland has become more or less wealthy, and is a EU member, another source of money for Israel, in my opinion.

    You seem knowledgeable of this subject. At least, you’ve linked numerous specific references. I’ve already been “disagreed” with for saying this, but I was given first hand account of dissolution of Warsaw Jewish ghetto…. that Lithuanians were enlisted (by Germans) to carry out final dispersal, and subsequently the Lithuanians were put on a ship that was [purposely] sunk. Have you ever heard this story?

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    • Replies: @Beckow

    Warsaw Jewish ghetto…. that Lithuanians were enlisted (by Germans) to carry out final dispersal, and subsequently the Lithuanians were put on a ship that was [purposely] sunk
     
    I would like to know more about it. But two terms bother me: 'final dispersal' and 'purposely sunk'. Those can be interpreted differently. Self-serving story telling takes a true event, weaves a story out of it, and adds a few subjective terms that suggest a political meaning. When you actually think about it is always more complex. How would you sink a ship with only the Lithuanians? What does 'final' mean?

    WWII in eastern Europe was a very messy affair. There were a lot of inconsistencies. There were millions of local 'Volk Deutsch' (Germans ethnics who had lived there for centuries). There were also a lot of people whose nationality was fluid. A son of the pre-war head of Czech nationalists joined SS and was killed for that after the war by nationalists returning from London. Of course, later he was added to the list of 'victims of communism', it made the numbers look better. My grandpa's family was assigned a German soldier to live in his house, a middle-aged baker from Berlin who was telling the locals how to survive, when was the front coming. The same German unit then shot three local 'educated' people on their way out of village. Mindless revenge? Quota? Nihilism?

    Given all that happened, any side in this belated ideological battle can draw on lots of 'stories'. In the West there has been a slow, subtle effort to shift the blame away from the Germans because Germany is a key ally for Nato. And no matter how much people here will deny it, there is a strong ethnic kinship with Germans in UK and US. (Prince Harry marches in a Nazi uniform for a reason even if it is a joke). Among many Jews there is identification with German culture and an ambivalent attitude that often prefers to go after the Poles. It is also geo-politically better. We see in the past what we want to see.

    , @jilles dykstra
    That Lithuaians, and Ukrainians, were used in the deportations of jews is well known.
    The ship story, never heard of.
    Ukrainians also were no friends of jews, this goes back to the early twenties when Bolsjewists, many of them jews, chased Ukrainian farmers from their farmers.
    Voline ( Vsevolod Mikhailovitsch Eichenbaum), ‘The unknown revolution (Kronstadt 1921 Ukraine 1918-21)’, New York 1955
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  53. Why do these losers insist on outlawing historical research and controversy?

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  54. Wally says:
    @German_reader

    And we know, presumably, that this term has been used in German national and provincial media
     
    How do you know that? Are there studies documenting this is a widespread term in German media? Because I can't recall ever having read it, certainly not in the sense that it was claimed the extermination camps were somehow under Polish control. If the term is used at all, in most cases it will be due to thoughtlessness, not deliberate obfuscation, and merely in a geographical sense.
    Granted, the Our mothers, our fathers tv series was pretty questionable in some parts and Polish protests were justifed. But there is no organized German campaign to shift responsibility for the Holocaust onto Poland. This exists only in the imagination of Polish right-wingers.

    Germany has not paid reparations even for that, though between 1952 and 2017 it paid so many billions in Deutsche marks and euros in so many reparations agreements with the State of Israel and Jewish Holocaust survivors,

     

    Yes, but Israel didn't get one quarter of pre-war German territory, plus the satisfaction of taking revenge by ethnically cleansing a few million Germans. Bit one-sided to leave this "detail" unmentioned.

    said:
    “But there is no organized German campaign to shift responsibility for the Holocaust onto Poland. This exists only in the imagination of Polish right-wingers.”

    Seriously? Germans & other Europeans are arrested if they try anything that alters the impossible ’6M Jews, 5M others & gas chambers’ scam.

    Below is where free speech on the impossible ‘holocaust’ storyline is illegal, violators go to prison for Thought Crimes & Free Speech.
    An obvious admission that the storyline doesn’t stand up to scientific, logical, & rational scrutiny.

    https://forum.codoh.com/download/file.php?id=1858

    http://www.codoh.com

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  55. annamaria says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova
    With all due respect please check your basic calculus.
    She was 14 taken to camp and she is now 68? Your numbers simply do not add up!!!!

    Check the date of the publication.

    Read More
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  56. @snag
    Somebody who cites Jan Gross or Anne Applebaum it's someone with an agenda to whitewash Jewish atrocities. Somebody who writes the book like 'Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner of that atrocity is nothing but hasbara goon and zio-crap peddler.

    Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Kaganovich, Yagoda (Jews) responsible for Holodomor a genocide of 8 - 10 million starved to death Ukrainian farmland owners during one winter 1932/33*, a whole segment of society because for who they were which according to their formula constitutes holocaust not to mention ethnic cleansing of Crimean Tatars, again, by Kaganowich and his hand picked goons murdering half of the population on the spot with the remaining shipped to Gulags and other God forsaken places in Siberia designated to die and re-populating Crimea with Jewish settlers.

    *Compare it with the efficiency and costs German concentration camps.

    Somebody who writes 'Gulag: A History' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner is a liar with an agenda.

    Gulags - A forced labor camp system in reality a death camp system was more horrible than Auschwitz run by Matvei Berman and Naftaly Frenkel (founders) their buddies Lev Inzhir a commissar of the Gulag transit and administration, Firin, Rappoport, Kogan, Zhuk, were the commissars of camps and slave labor that supervised the construction of the Belomorsk Canal and other projects responsible for at least 30 million worked/starved to death "enemies" of the revolution. The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis.

    Somebody who writes that you can accommodate and incinerate 1600 people in small barn is insulting our intelligence not to mention that he's making up the participation of Poles in that event. Grosse's version of that account is a product of sick bastard who's parents were saved by some Polish sucker who risked his, his family and often his neighbors life allowing them to produce human maggot like him. Gross is a sociologist not historian as he claims.

    By the way, Auschwitz was chosen because of it's logistic location (middle of concentration of jewish population) and proximity of major railway junction.

    Thank you, sir.

    I have heretofore been impressed with jyles’ reading lists and non-abusive comments, but I say that I’ve now become very disappointed in the quality of his views and not only because he presents as credible evidence, the tabloid style sensationalist fake “history’ by the high society Glamour Girl, Bella Fromm , but also because he states that her story is credible because similar things were written by others!

    I had never heard of her, but it took all of 1/2 hour to see that she was nothing more than another rich attention seeking gadabout and gossip; she has no credibility in my mind, and jyles did himself a disservice by presenting her and then trying to defend his error.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    The truth is consistent, what Bella Fromm describes as anti jewish measures is corrobated by many other books.
    Such as
    Helmut Krausnick : Judenverfolgung, 1965, 1967, München
    Victor Klemperer, ‘I will bear witness, A diary of the Nazi years, 1942-1945’, New York 1999
    Saul Friedländer, ‘Nazi Germany & the Jews, The Years of Persecution 1933-39’, London, 1997

    Why do you think many jews fled to France or the Netherlands ?
    For fun ?
    The Netherlands had so many asjenazi jews as refugees that the assimilated Dutch sephardic jews became antisemites:
    Regina Grüters, ‘Een fantast schrijft geschiedenis, De affaires rond FRIEDRICH WEINBERG’, Netherlands, 1997

    Weinberg was an asjkenazi rabbi, fled from Germany.
    He became notorious after the war, he was condemned to a prison sentence after the war for collaboration with the Germans, letting himself paid by jews to prevent deportation, he influenced nothing, and spying in jail on fellow prisoners for the Germans.
    Dutch jewry saw him as a hero, he resisted the Germans.
    The controversy went on in Dutch journals into the eighties.

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  57. snag says:
    @jilles dykstra
    What a long article for a simple matter.

    Auschwitz was where it was because there was abundant water and coal there, from which synthetic rubber, Buna, was made, high octane airplane fuel and lubrication oil.
    The USA also used the Buna process, as the USA was cut off from all natural rubber, without this IG Farben process it is difficult to see how the uSA could have waged war.
    Even Ben Gurion at the end of 1944 saw Auschwitz as work camps.

    The abundant water makes impossible the stories about huge pits in which bodies were burned, and babies thrown in alive.
    The water level was close under the surface.

    That Poles did not like their jews can be read in many books.
    Gross describes a massacre, I have little reason to doubt it.
    Lithuanians killed their jews in the woods before the Germans were there.
    How many jews Poles and Lithuanians killed, w'll never know.
    Even in 1967 Poland allowed the jews to go, Gross was one of them who went.
    From various sources my impression is that the hatred of jews found its origin in that jews controlled the economy.

    Bogdan Musial, ´Sowjetische Partisanen 1941 – 1944, Mythos und Wirklichkeit’, Paderborn 2009
    How jews were not admitted into resistance groups.

    Anne Applebaum, ‘Between East and West, Across the borderlands of Europe’, Londen, 1995
    'Hitler did horrible things, but he liberated us from the jews'.

    Lonely Planet Guide 'Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania', Nicola Williams, Debra Herrmann, Cathryn Kemp, 2003, Victoria, Australia.
    Resistance in Lithuania against restauration of the ghetto, with UN money, in parliament something was said as 'must the Lithuanians again become the slaves of the jews'

    Dan Jacobson, ‘Heshels Rijk Familiekroniek’, Amsterdam 1998
    The killings of jews by Lithuanians

    Christopher R. Browning, ‘Ordinary Men, Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland’, 1992, 2001, London
    Pictures of jews beaten to death in Kaunas, Lithuania

    Jan T. Gross, ‘Neighbours, The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland, 1941’, 2003, London

    About the present controversy Israel Poland, Poland has become more or less wealthy, and is a EU member, another source of money for Israel, in my opinion.

    Somebody who cites Jan Gross or Anne Applebaum it’s someone with an agenda to whitewash Jewish atrocities. Somebody who writes the book like ‘Red Famine: Stalin’s War on Ukraine’ and forgets to mention who’s idea was it who was the engineer and executioner of that atrocity is nothing but hasbara goon and zio-crap peddler.

    Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Kaganovich, Yagoda (Jews) responsible for Holodomor a genocide of 8 – 10 million starved to death Ukrainian farmland owners during one winter 1932/33*, a whole segment of society because for who they were which according to their formula constitutes holocaust not to mention ethnic cleansing of Crimean Tatars, again, by Kaganowich and his hand picked goons murdering half of the population on the spot with the remaining shipped to Gulags and other God forsaken places in Siberia designated to die and re-populating Crimea with Jewish settlers.

    *Compare it with the efficiency and costs German concentration camps.

    Somebody who writes ‘Gulag: A History’ and forgets to mention who’s idea was it who was the engineer and executioner is a liar with an agenda.

    Gulags – A forced labor camp system in reality a death camp system was more horrible than Auschwitz run by Matvei Berman and Naftaly Frenkel (founders) their buddies Lev Inzhir a commissar of the Gulag transit and administration, Firin, Rappoport, Kogan, Zhuk, were the commissars of camps and slave labor that supervised the construction of the Belomorsk Canal and other projects responsible for at least 30 million worked/starved to death “enemies” of the revolution. The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis.

    Somebody who writes that you can accommodate and incinerate 1600 people in small barn is insulting our intelligence not to mention that he’s making up the participation of Poles in that event. Grosse’s version of that account is a product of sick bastard who’s parents were saved by some Polish sucker who risked his, his family and often his neighbors life allowing them to produce human maggot like him. Gross is a sociologist not historian as he claims.

    By the way, Auschwitz was chosen because of it’s logistic location (middle of concentration of jewish population) and proximity of major railway junction.

    Read More
    • Agree: Miro23
    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    Thank you, sir.

    I have heretofore been impressed with jyles' reading lists and non-abusive comments, but I say that I've now become very disappointed in the quality of his views and not only because he presents as credible evidence, the tabloid style sensationalist fake "history' by the high society Glamour Girl, Bella Fromm , but also because he states that her story is credible because similar things were written by others!

    I had never heard of her, but it took all of 1/2 hour to see that she was nothing more than another rich attention seeking gadabout and gossip; she has no credibility in my mind, and jyles did himself a disservice by presenting her and then trying to defend his error.

    , @jilles dykstra
    " Auschwitz was chosen because of it’s logistic location "

    You deny the production of synthetic rubber, high octane aviation fuel, and oil there from abundant coal and water ?
    What do you think the allies began bombing from the end of 1944 on, from Italy ?
    Why do you think in early 1945 hundreds of Me jet fighters could not fly ?
    Even Ben Gurion understood that the Auschwitz camps were camps for workers, as also Elie Wiesel describes in
    Elie Wiesel, 'La Nuit', 1958, 2007
    Wiesel worked in a large storage facility for electric parts.
    , @Wally
    said:
    " The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis."

    What "death camps"? Please provide proof that the Germans built "death camps" to murder people in.

    Please provide proof that millions were allegedly murdered in them.

    Healthy Jews at Auschwitz 'liberation':

    http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/85600.jpg
    http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/66935a.jpg

    - If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$"?

    - If the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?

    - If Jews are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like "what happened to them then?
    After all, Jews say '6M Jews & 5M others' went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind.

    Thanks.
    www.codoh.com

    , @jilles dykstra
    Please (re)read the quote from Applebaum.

    Whatever jewish crimes there may have been, there is little doubt that what Gross describes is true.

    It is the same with Lithuania, how bad the economic exploitation of Lithuanians may have been, does that alter the fact of the large scale executions by Lithuanianss of jews ?
    Do you think the pictures a beating jews to death in
    Christopher R. Browning, ‘Ordinary Men, Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland’, 1992, 2001, London
    are fake ?
    This is, of course possible, but the beating fits in what happened in Lithuania, and the fact that even a few years after 2000 Lithuanians refused to talk about what happened to their jews.

    And it fits what was said in the Lithuanian parliament about the restauration of the ghetto.
    A remarkably small area, I saw it, with as peculiar feature some floors about a metre below street level.
    I suppose there was a maximum height for religious buildings, so in order to create more height inside the floor was sunk.
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  58. @annamaria
    Agree.
    What Israel has done is to open a well-documented criticism of Jewish"eternal victimhood."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/israel-protects-concentration-camp-boss-1194791.html
    "Salomon Morel is wanted by the prosecutor's office in the southern Polish city of Katowice. He is charged with crimes against humanity while he was commander of the Swietochlowice camp... A reply sent to the Polish Justice Ministry from Israeli authorities said that Israel would not extradite Mr Morel. Officials said the crimes with which he is charged are not perceived in Israel as genocide, and so are subject to the statute of limitations... Dorota Boriczek, a camp survivor, remembers Salomon Morel as a barbaric and cruel man who, with his colleagues, was responsible for many killings of inmates. "I knew Morel in the camp. He was a very brutal man. He was young then. He would come in at night. We could hear the cries of the men then. They would beat them and throw the bodies out of the window," Mrs Boriczek, now 68 and living in Ludswigberg, Germany, told The Independent. "I was taken there when I was 14, with my mother. I still don't know why we were there and I still want to know. They told us when we arrived, `You are here, and you are here to die, although nobody will shoot you, because ammunition is too expensive'. ...
    The Polish military prosecutor in Warsaw recently issued an arrest warrant for Helena Brus, formerly Wolinska, now married to an Oxford don. During the 1950s Ms Wolinska worked as a military prosecutor in Warsaw, issuing arrest warrants. Many of those detained under her orders were later hanged. Both Mr Morel and Mrs Brus are Jewish.
    -- Add to these the names of Naftali Frankel, the principal organizer of GULAG (a network of concentration camps in Russia) where millions of Russian citizens perished under horriorrific circumstances, and Lazar Kaganovitch, the principal organizer of Holodomor in Ukraine.
    The article states a logical and highly inconvenient question for the Lobby and the Friends of Israel: "How many Israeli politicians and media mavens commented on the giant portraits of Nazi allies and Jews’ (and Poles’) mass murderers Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych and Yevhen Konovalets, borne by adoring crowds of the “Maidan revolution” in Lvov and Kiev, said “maidan” enjoying the enthusiastic support of at least two Jewish-Ukrainian oligarchs with Israeli citizenship?"
    The Kagans' clan anyone? How about the ongoing proliferation of neo-Nazism in Ukraine and Canada, thanks to the strong collaborative efforts among ziocons and banderites?
    What about the Jewish war criminals (murderers) like Morel and "military prosecutors" like Wolinska?

    With all due respect please check your basic calculus.
    She was 14 taken to camp and she is now 68? Your numbers simply do not add up!!!!

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Check the date of the publication.
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  59. @annamaria
    Agree.
    What Israel has done is to open a well-documented criticism of Jewish"eternal victimhood."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/israel-protects-concentration-camp-boss-1194791.html
    "Salomon Morel is wanted by the prosecutor's office in the southern Polish city of Katowice. He is charged with crimes against humanity while he was commander of the Swietochlowice camp... A reply sent to the Polish Justice Ministry from Israeli authorities said that Israel would not extradite Mr Morel. Officials said the crimes with which he is charged are not perceived in Israel as genocide, and so are subject to the statute of limitations... Dorota Boriczek, a camp survivor, remembers Salomon Morel as a barbaric and cruel man who, with his colleagues, was responsible for many killings of inmates. "I knew Morel in the camp. He was a very brutal man. He was young then. He would come in at night. We could hear the cries of the men then. They would beat them and throw the bodies out of the window," Mrs Boriczek, now 68 and living in Ludswigberg, Germany, told The Independent. "I was taken there when I was 14, with my mother. I still don't know why we were there and I still want to know. They told us when we arrived, `You are here, and you are here to die, although nobody will shoot you, because ammunition is too expensive'. ...
    The Polish military prosecutor in Warsaw recently issued an arrest warrant for Helena Brus, formerly Wolinska, now married to an Oxford don. During the 1950s Ms Wolinska worked as a military prosecutor in Warsaw, issuing arrest warrants. Many of those detained under her orders were later hanged. Both Mr Morel and Mrs Brus are Jewish.
    -- Add to these the names of Naftali Frankel, the principal organizer of GULAG (a network of concentration camps in Russia) where millions of Russian citizens perished under horriorrific circumstances, and Lazar Kaganovitch, the principal organizer of Holodomor in Ukraine.
    The article states a logical and highly inconvenient question for the Lobby and the Friends of Israel: "How many Israeli politicians and media mavens commented on the giant portraits of Nazi allies and Jews’ (and Poles’) mass murderers Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych and Yevhen Konovalets, borne by adoring crowds of the “Maidan revolution” in Lvov and Kiev, said “maidan” enjoying the enthusiastic support of at least two Jewish-Ukrainian oligarchs with Israeli citizenship?"
    The Kagans' clan anyone? How about the ongoing proliferation of neo-Nazism in Ukraine and Canada, thanks to the strong collaborative efforts among ziocons and banderites?
    What about the Jewish war criminals (murderers) like Morel and "military prosecutors" like Wolinska?

    Annamaria:

    Please some corrections:

    It is not Lvov. It is Lwow, a temporarily lost region of Poland.

    The helot-in-chief, Bandera, should be properly addressed by his helot name, Consul 1.

    This was the name given to him by Master Hitler and later, the CIA.

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  60. Anon • Disclaimer says:
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  61. utu says:

    So why didn’t the British declare war on Slovakia too?

    For the same reason they did not declare war on USSR. A better question is why Polish government issued an order of not resisting or engaging Soviet troops on Sept. 17? And why did they all evacuate to Rumania and Hungary so soon?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    What is the source for this stand-down order? I know some Polish commanders initially did not oppose Soviet troops because they assumed they were coming to fight the Germans, but this was battlefield confusion, etc. Do you mean to say the Polish government told troops in the east to simply run and live to fight another day?
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  62. @Lex
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance

    mutual assistance in case of military invasion from Germany
     

    You didn’t read your own rebuttal link! Yes, the Wiki intro repeats the myth that Britain only promised to defend Poland should Germany invade, but later on it clarifies:

    On 25 August, two days after the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland was signed. The agreement contained promises of mutual military assistance between the nations in the event either was attacked by some “European country”.

    and has the text of the agreement:

    ” … in the event of any action which clearly threatened Polish independence, and which the Polish Government accordingly considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty’s Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power. They have given the Polish Government an assurance to this effect.

    I may add that the French Government have authorised me to make it plain that they stand in the same position in this matter as do His Majesty’s Government.”

    _________________

    I did learn more from this. Slovakia joined in the invasion of Poland in 1939 and sent 50,000 troops across the border.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

    So why didn’t the British declare war on Slovakia too?

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  63. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Art
    What Poland done is to open the Pandora Box, which Netanyahu nor any Jews is able to close. History is now open for debate….

    Exactly -- the longer the debate goes on - the better. The Jews cannot win the six million lie.

    Think peace --- Art

    Hey Art,

    I’ve found you, you 70 year old crazy lunatic!

    Arthur Jones formerly of the American Nazi Party. You’re a national embarrassment and a slur on the Republican party.

    Why not boost them by dropping out and declaring that they are the opposite of Nazis and so you had to leave?

    Best regards,

    Me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    You’re a national embarrassment and a slur on the Republican party.
     
    Both major parties are slurs on themselves and national embarrassments and worse, so what's your point?

    I suppose now that we've gone full commie (since FDR), Nazism is verboten?

    You really think that FDR's, Churchill's and Stalin's brands of fascism were substantially different from Wall Street supported Bolshevism?

    Our own government, especially the Izzy firsters, are not only an embarrassment, but a menace to American society.

    The whole system stinks and has for over a century, and you think Art is a problem?

    Think peace!
    , @iffen
    You shouldn't try to dox people, Tyrion 2.

    And, there is something about your comments that give some anti-anti-Semites a second thoughts.
    , @Art

    I’ve found you, you 70 year old crazy lunatic!

    Arthur Jones formerly of the American Nazi Party.
     
    Tyrion 2,

    Sorry - your are 100% wrong - I am not that person. I hate Hitler and Nazis.

    "Art" is a handle - not my actual name.

    I have never belonged to any party.

    Outside of comments - I have never been published.

    Think Peace --- Art
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  64. AndrewR says:

    What’s next? A law banning claims that Poles ethnically cleansed Germans after the war? Or a law banning any criticism of said ethnic cleansing?

    This law proves that the anti-Pole sentiments of Friedrich der Grosse, Hitler, and other prominent Deutsche were eminently justified.

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    • Replies: @Gene Dobry
    Well then, Andy--was the nation/state of Poland complicit in the Holocaust, or not?
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  65. szopen says:
    @Beckow
    What Poland did in 1938 after Munich to Czechoslovakia was identical to what Nazi Germany did. A multi-ethnic territory that legally belonged to a neighbouring country was occupied by Poland.

    The same is true about the Soviet Union's annexation of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus in 1939. They occupied areas that were inhabited mostly by Ukrainians and Belorussians. And also after Germany attacked Poland. If Poland did it, why shouldn't others do it to Poland?

    Different nations, different scale, but exactly the same principle - 'protect people of your nationality' living in neighbouring countries.

    The fact that Poland did the same thing to Czechoslovakia undermines Polish claims to some martyr purity. Would you stop with the preachy pontificating about Poland always being 'just a victim'? (And Wiki as a source? Right, I am sure the Polish version is really 'nuanced'.)

    right, I am sure the Polish version is really ‘nuanced’.

    Sure it is.

    (1) Czechoslovakia reached to Poland first, proposing Zaolzie in exchange for alliance. Poland instead issued ultimatum, which Czechoslovakia accepted.

    (2) Zaolzie was first divided in local agreement based on ethnic lines in 1919. Czechs violated the local agreement, attacking totally unprepared local Polish units. Local Poles were so sure the agreement was final that they were sending best unit to the Lviv!

    (3) Czechs then forced Polish government to resign from demands on plebiscite in 1921, when Soviet army was approaching Warsaw. (2)+(3) poisoned Polish-Czechoslovakian relationships, and Czechs arrogant continous innuendos that Poland is just backward primitive state which will soon collapse had not helped either.

    I still think that we were wrong in 1938, and because of that action we lost moral rights to Zaolzie – but I’d say Czechs’ behaviour in 1919 was really, really awful and shortsighted.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beckow
    You are intentionally mixing up 1919-20 with what happened in 1938. Focus. It was a land-grab pure and simple, and it predated a similar land-grab by Soviets a year later to 'reunite Ukrainians and Belorussians'. The arguments used by Poland and Soviets were identical.

    Czechs arrogant continous innuendos that Poland is just backward primitive state which will soon collapse
     
    That is just random. How long would you have to dig in millions of articles, speeches and throw-away lines to show that? You can write a similar sentence about almost any nation 'saying' that about its neighbours at that time. Poland says it today daily about Russia. Or do they? See how slippery these generalisations can be?
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  66. szopen says:
    @Carlton Meyer
    There are other historical complications, mentioned in my blog:

    Jun 6, 2016 - Appeasing Poland

    We all know the evil Nazi’s invaded Czechoslovakia, but no one mentions that Poland grabbed a chunk first. After a threatening ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen) an area of some 625 square miles with a population of 230,000 people.

    And when Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland a year later, why didn’t the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too? History is far more complex and interesting than the boring comic books we read in American educational institutions.

    We all know the evil Nazi’s invaded Czechoslovakia, but no one mentions that Poland grabbed a chunk first.

    Sure, but earlier in 1918 local Czechs and local Poles made a local agreement about how to divide the territory, and then Czechs attacked Poles, using very dirty tricks (like for example pretending they are “entente officers”).

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  67. @Tyrion 2
    Hey Art,

    I've found you, you 70 year old crazy lunatic!

    Arthur Jones formerly of the American Nazi Party. You're a national embarrassment and a slur on the Republican party.

    Why not boost them by dropping out and declaring that they are the opposite of Nazis and so you had to leave?

    Best regards,

    Me.

    You’re a national embarrassment and a slur on the Republican party.

    Both major parties are slurs on themselves and national embarrassments and worse, so what’s your point?

    I suppose now that we’ve gone full commie (since FDR), Nazism is verboten?

    You really think that FDR’s, Churchill’s and Stalin’s brands of fascism were substantially different from Wall Street supported Bolshevism?

    Our own government, especially the Izzy firsters, are not only an embarrassment, but a menace to American society.

    The whole system stinks and has for over a century, and you think Art is a problem?

    Think peace!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    He is an albatross that will be hung over Trump's neck. Were he a paid Democrat operative, he could not be more effective in undermining the Republican party.

    I know you're thinking I'm just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It'd be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.
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  68. szopen says:
    @Carlton Meyer
    Since this topic is about Poland and World War II, allow me to toss this grenade in the discussion:

    Oct 13, 2010 - Was Churchill Worse than Hitler?

    I just finished Pat Buchanan's new book: "Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War". Good read. All our official history is government propaganda. Sane people agree that America's entry into World War I was a horrible mistake. The war was a stalemate by 1916 and the cause of the war were ill thought alliances, so a truce would have resulted. Instead, American intervention encouraged two more years of senseless fighting that nearly destroyed the major European powers. As a result, the communists took power in Russia and the punitive Armistice was a disaster that resulted in World War II.

    Buchanan asserts that World War II was a mistake as well. Hitler was a bad guy, but desired an empire to the East, and the evil Soviet Union was his target. He never wanted war with the West, and admired Great Britain. Buchanan exposes Winston Churchill as a crazed warmonger who destroyed the British Empire by pushing it into World War I and World War II. In 1938, Poland's dictator joined Germany and Hungary in gobbling up the post World War I British creation of Czechoslovakia. Hitler then courted Poland as an ally against Stalin.

    But Poland's dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand. After Hitler moved troops to threaten Poland, the British prime minister made a rash decision to declare Poland an ally. This made Poland's dictator confident so he refused any talks with Hitler, who invaded and crushed Poland. Hitler hoped that Britain and France were bluffing about war, and forbade anything but defensive combat on the French frontier, but changed his mind after Anglo-French aggressions. One can only guess how things may have turned out if the British had not foolishly promised to back Poland. Although World War II was "won", it killed tens of millions of people, destroyed much of Europe, and left half of Europe under communist tyranny.

    Pat Buchanan deserves great credit for discussing the real history of the "Good War". This contrasts with Tom Brokaw's simplistic 1998 "The Greatest Generation", from which he pocketed millions of dollars for writing a propaganda tale that implies the greatest achievement of our nation is fighting wars. World War II combat veteran Paul Fussell wrote several honest (and unpopular) books about war. He noted that only one million Americans volunteered for World War II, mostly because they needed jobs during the economic depression. The other 11 million were drafted and spent the war disgruntled and scheming for a discharge. Only later did they recall their unselfish crusade for freedom.

    Poland’s dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand.

    That’s not a real summary.

    (1) for years Hitler was assuring Poland that Danzig is non-issue

    (2) Then he demanded not just “Danzig rail corridor”. His demands varied, but in general there were those:

    (a) plebiscite in Western Poland, in which Polish military, police would withdraw, all Poles who settled there after 1919 would be forbidden to vote, while every German who was born before 1919 there could vote (ignoring the fact that many of those were settlers or children of military and police)
    (b) Danzig would go to Germany
    (c) Poland would join Axis.

    He would then guarantee Poland’s borders.

    Now, given that he already has given several promises, and he always broke them, nobody in Poland believed in his single word. He said “this is my last demand” after Sudetenland,then after incorporating rest of Czechoslovakia. I’d say that it’s reasonable to expect that if Poland would agree to his “reasonable” demands, then he would continue to make new demands.

    Not to mention that demand of plebiscite in Western Poland on his conditions was clearly a demand impossible to fulfill and could be given only to a state already defeated in war.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    I was hoping that you would come in with your excellent comments regarding Polish history and politics.
    , @jilles dykstra
    Danzig never was a non issue, read
    Günter Grass, ‘Beim Häuten der Zwiebel’, München 2008
    Grass lived in Danzig.
    He also explains how Germans, some of his relatives did, living in Poland were discriminated by Poles.

    The corridor had nothing to do with Danzig.
    After Versailles E Prussia could not be reached overland from Germany.
    E Prussia had bad harbours.
    Therefore Hitler wanted an extraterritorial corridor from Germany to E Prussia, wide enough for a motorway, four lane, and a double railway.

    That was all he wanted.
    , @Thirdeye
    Poland should have settled the Danzig Corridor issue with Weimar Germany under the terms of the Locarno Treaty. Assuming that Poland's weak neighbors would remain weak was a hugely costly miscalculation.
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  69. iffen says:
    @Jonathan Revusky
    The article is really pretty cringe-inducing, since it is such a confused jumble. I feel like it requires a comment, but to comment on it requires one to disentangle the mess somewhat.

    As I see it, there are basically two categories of confusion here: intellectual and moral.

    Most of the 7500 word article is devoted to pushing a certain very partisan view of the history. Basically, the author tacitly accepts that the victors' version of WW2 is broadly correct and the endless demonization of Germans is something just. However, when it somehow splashes over and becomes a demonization of the Poles, then it is unjust. This is very confused, both intellectually and morally. Let's start with the intellectual confusion here...

    First of all, if (as I see it, anyway...) the central issue here is really freedom of speech, then on that level it doesn't matter so much which version of history is truthful. I can go onto Amazon and buy numerous books that say Abraham Lincoln was a great man. I can also buy other books (less numerous, but there are some) that say that he was a complete scoundrel. Moreover, the respective books will offer very different interpretations of that period of history, i.e. the American Civil war.

    One can know absolutely nothing about the history of that time period, yet still realize, on purely logical grounds, that both sides cannot be right. Moreover, a genuine advocate of free speech will hold that both sides of the debate have the right to put forward their viewpoint.

    This could be expressed more generally: when you have a debate, one side of the debate is affirming X, the other side is saying "not X". One side must be wrong surely, but that's not the point. The point is that you cannot prevail in an intellectual debate by illegalizing the other side's viewpoint! That should be self-evidently unacceptable!

    That is the central issue intellectually. (At least for me...) Now, the other massive hairy problem in all of this is the following:

    Zionist Jews have ZERO moral standing to condemn the Polish law in question.

    Once you accept the idea that one version of history is the correct one and anybody who disputes it is committing a crime, then you've opened Pandora's box and you cannot then complain what comes out of it. The same people lobbying for Holocaust denial laws throughout the West cannot then turn around and complain about this Polish law! This should be a laughing stock!

    So, to me, perhaps the most central thing about this is the utter hypocrisy of the Zionist Jews condemning this law on free speech grounds! I find the whole thing appalling, particularly as somebody of Jewish descent myself. I feel that Jewish ethnics who feel this way (and I know I cannot possibly be the only one) should more openly condemn this kind of blatant attempt to burn the candle on both ends.

    In general, as I have become more educated about certain matters, with a much more nuanced understanding of real history, I have become painfully aware of just how unfair this endless demonizing of the German people with this comic book version of history is. And again, in general, I think that honest, just Jews (there are some...) should more openly condemn this.

    Now, I agree with this Polish nationalist author that the demonization of Poles over period of history is something completely unjust, but his idea that the endless demonization of Germans is fair -- this is a very blinkered understanding of the issues. It is utterly confused -- as I said, both intellectually and morally. The author really needed to think through all these issues much more rigorously before embarking on such a long-winded essay.

    before embarking on such a long-winded essay

    But I thought word count was your measure of validity and value.

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    • Troll: Jonathan Revusky
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  70. @snag
    Somebody who cites Jan Gross or Anne Applebaum it's someone with an agenda to whitewash Jewish atrocities. Somebody who writes the book like 'Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner of that atrocity is nothing but hasbara goon and zio-crap peddler.

    Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Kaganovich, Yagoda (Jews) responsible for Holodomor a genocide of 8 - 10 million starved to death Ukrainian farmland owners during one winter 1932/33*, a whole segment of society because for who they were which according to their formula constitutes holocaust not to mention ethnic cleansing of Crimean Tatars, again, by Kaganowich and his hand picked goons murdering half of the population on the spot with the remaining shipped to Gulags and other God forsaken places in Siberia designated to die and re-populating Crimea with Jewish settlers.

    *Compare it with the efficiency and costs German concentration camps.

    Somebody who writes 'Gulag: A History' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner is a liar with an agenda.

    Gulags - A forced labor camp system in reality a death camp system was more horrible than Auschwitz run by Matvei Berman and Naftaly Frenkel (founders) their buddies Lev Inzhir a commissar of the Gulag transit and administration, Firin, Rappoport, Kogan, Zhuk, were the commissars of camps and slave labor that supervised the construction of the Belomorsk Canal and other projects responsible for at least 30 million worked/starved to death "enemies" of the revolution. The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis.

    Somebody who writes that you can accommodate and incinerate 1600 people in small barn is insulting our intelligence not to mention that he's making up the participation of Poles in that event. Grosse's version of that account is a product of sick bastard who's parents were saved by some Polish sucker who risked his, his family and often his neighbors life allowing them to produce human maggot like him. Gross is a sociologist not historian as he claims.

    By the way, Auschwitz was chosen because of it's logistic location (middle of concentration of jewish population) and proximity of major railway junction.

    ” Auschwitz was chosen because of it’s logistic location ”

    You deny the production of synthetic rubber, high octane aviation fuel, and oil there from abundant coal and water ?
    What do you think the allies began bombing from the end of 1944 on, from Italy ?
    Why do you think in early 1945 hundreds of Me jet fighters could not fly ?
    Even Ben Gurion understood that the Auschwitz camps were camps for workers, as also Elie Wiesel describes in
    Elie Wiesel, ‘La Nuit’, 1958, 2007
    Wiesel worked in a large storage facility for electric parts.

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    • Replies: @snag
    Spare me your 'sources', please* - So what that there was coal and if it was what good would it do without rail system and the means to deliver it to its destination. Try to use some logic in your statements - When Auschwitz (1940) was build Birkenau (1942) the Germans were winning everywhere they went and didn't have any fuel supply problems.

    *Wiesel and his daughter became multi millionaires by whining and pointing a finger. There're too many inconsistencies in his war time days to take him seriously.

    "The most strange thing about “Elie Wiesel” is that he speaks English with a Serbian accent and cannot speak Hungarian. The real Wiesel was supposed to have come from a Hungarian speaking part of Romania. On the internet there is an entry card for “Elie Wiesel” from the Yugoslavian embassy in Paris, for when he entered France from Yugoslavia in 1954. While it shows his photo, it does not show his real name, which must be something Serbian. It is unlikely he is a Jew as he looks much more like a Serb. It seems the reason he came to France was to pose as Elie Wiesel when the French author Mauriac wrote Elie Wiesel’s “Night”, adapted from the real Wiesel’s Yiddish book “un di welt hot geschwigen”.

    Here's another one.
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n1p15_okeefe.html

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  71. Beckow says:
    @RobinG
    You seem knowledgeable of this subject. At least, you've linked numerous specific references. I've already been "disagreed" with for saying this, but I was given first hand account of dissolution of Warsaw Jewish ghetto.... that Lithuanians were enlisted (by Germans) to carry out final dispersal, and subsequently the Lithuanians were put on a ship that was [purposely] sunk. Have you ever heard this story?

    Warsaw Jewish ghetto…. that Lithuanians were enlisted (by Germans) to carry out final dispersal, and subsequently the Lithuanians were put on a ship that was [purposely] sunk

    I would like to know more about it. But two terms bother me: ‘final dispersal‘ and ‘purposely sunk‘. Those can be interpreted differently. Self-serving story telling takes a true event, weaves a story out of it, and adds a few subjective terms that suggest a political meaning. When you actually think about it is always more complex. How would you sink a ship with only the Lithuanians? What does ‘final’ mean?

    WWII in eastern Europe was a very messy affair. There were a lot of inconsistencies. There were millions of local ‘Volk Deutsch’ (Germans ethnics who had lived there for centuries). There were also a lot of people whose nationality was fluid. A son of the pre-war head of Czech nationalists joined SS and was killed for that after the war by nationalists returning from London. Of course, later he was added to the list of ‘victims of communism’, it made the numbers look better. My grandpa’s family was assigned a German soldier to live in his house, a middle-aged baker from Berlin who was telling the locals how to survive, when was the front coming. The same German unit then shot three local ‘educated’ people on their way out of village. Mindless revenge? Quota? Nihilism?

    Given all that happened, any side in this belated ideological battle can draw on lots of ‘stories’. In the West there has been a slow, subtle effort to shift the blame away from the Germans because Germany is a key ally for Nato. And no matter how much people here will deny it, there is a strong ethnic kinship with Germans in UK and US. (Prince Harry marches in a Nazi uniform for a reason even if it is a joke). Among many Jews there is identification with German culture and an ambivalent attitude that often prefers to go after the Poles. It is also geo-politically better. We see in the past what we want to see.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    And no matter how much people here will deny it, there is a strong ethnic kinship with Germans in UK and US
     
    Britain must be one of the most obsessively anti-German countries in Europe, their entire public discourse is full of perpetual references to the world wars and Germany's alleged quest to dominate Europe even today. And while there are lots of Americans with some German ancestry, this doesn't really manifest itself in any German cultural power in the US or in positive attitudes towards Germany (at least I've never noticed anything of the kind...more like we're always being reminded that we're still on probation and can't really be trusted).
    Nor do I buy that there is a concerted effort to blame Poles for the Holocaust due to geopolitical reasons. The truth is simply that lots of Jews dislike Poles for the traditional antisemitism in Polish society (which shouldn't be confused with Nazi exterminationist antisemitism) and therefore have a warped view of WW2 realities in Poland.
    , @NoseytheDuke
    I'm not fond of the British monarchy in any way but Prince Harry didn't march in German uniform he simply donned one to attend a "bad taste" party along with likeminded youths who all wore costumes that they considered to be in poor taste. How and why did your version of that incident become so distorted?
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  72. polskijoe says:

    Thanks for the article. Europeans (and even more so Americans) need to be informed,

    that the Jews are NOT innoccent either. They also participated with Nazism and Communism.

    I am not gonna blame all Jews, but organized Jewry is irrational, annoying, and quite frankly mad.

    So why are there arguments over this law? Do Jews want to keep the monopoly of the genocide or Holocaust to themselves? What does a name change bother them?

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    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    The majority of organised Jewry is Israel and Israel has been a clear friend of the European right for all of my living memory.
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  73. @RobinG
    You seem knowledgeable of this subject. At least, you've linked numerous specific references. I've already been "disagreed" with for saying this, but I was given first hand account of dissolution of Warsaw Jewish ghetto.... that Lithuanians were enlisted (by Germans) to carry out final dispersal, and subsequently the Lithuanians were put on a ship that was [purposely] sunk. Have you ever heard this story?

    That Lithuaians, and Ukrainians, were used in the deportations of jews is well known.
    The ship story, never heard of.
    Ukrainians also were no friends of jews, this goes back to the early twenties when Bolsjewists, many of them jews, chased Ukrainian farmers from their farmers.
    Voline ( Vsevolod Mikhailovitsch Eichenbaum), ‘The unknown revolution (Kronstadt 1921 Ukraine 1918-21)’, New York 1955

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  74. Beckow says:
    @szopen

    right, I am sure the Polish version is really ‘nuanced’.
     
    Sure it is.

    (1) Czechoslovakia reached to Poland first, proposing Zaolzie in exchange for alliance. Poland instead issued ultimatum, which Czechoslovakia accepted.

    (2) Zaolzie was first divided in local agreement based on ethnic lines in 1919. Czechs violated the local agreement, attacking totally unprepared local Polish units. Local Poles were so sure the agreement was final that they were sending best unit to the Lviv!

    (3) Czechs then forced Polish government to resign from demands on plebiscite in 1921, when Soviet army was approaching Warsaw. (2)+(3) poisoned Polish-Czechoslovakian relationships, and Czechs arrogant continous innuendos that Poland is just backward primitive state which will soon collapse had not helped either.

    I still think that we were wrong in 1938, and because of that action we lost moral rights to Zaolzie - but I'd say Czechs' behaviour in 1919 was really, really awful and shortsighted.

    You are intentionally mixing up 1919-20 with what happened in 1938. Focus. It was a land-grab pure and simple, and it predated a similar land-grab by Soviets a year later to ‘reunite Ukrainians and Belorussians’. The arguments used by Poland and Soviets were identical.

    Czechs arrogant continous innuendos that Poland is just backward primitive state which will soon collapse

    That is just random. How long would you have to dig in millions of articles, speeches and throw-away lines to show that? You can write a similar sentence about almost any nation ‘saying’ that about its neighbours at that time. Poland says it today daily about Russia. Or do they? See how slippery these generalisations can be?

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Did you somehow missed the line when I have written, to quote myself: I still think that we were wrong in 1938?

    I have just provided the context.

    I do not say BTW about Czech innuendos justifying Polish taking of (majority Polish) Zaolzie, I have just written that Polish-Czechoslovakian relationships were pretty bad not just because of Zaolzie, but also because of attitude of Czech politicians.
    , @Razparuk
    Czechoslovakia didn'tresist in result Poland have to choose, let Hitler grab many Poles to exterminate or not..second thing was industry.. third was resentiments after 1919-21. Bad thing and moraly wrong...
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  75. polskijoe says:
    @Beckow
    What Poland did in 1938 after Munich to Czechoslovakia was identical to what Nazi Germany did. A multi-ethnic territory that legally belonged to a neighbouring country was occupied by Poland.

    The same is true about the Soviet Union's annexation of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus in 1939. They occupied areas that were inhabited mostly by Ukrainians and Belorussians. And also after Germany attacked Poland. If Poland did it, why shouldn't others do it to Poland?

    Different nations, different scale, but exactly the same principle - 'protect people of your nationality' living in neighbouring countries.

    The fact that Poland did the same thing to Czechoslovakia undermines Polish claims to some martyr purity. Would you stop with the preachy pontificating about Poland always being 'just a victim'? (And Wiki as a source? Right, I am sure the Polish version is really 'nuanced'.)

    Doesnt undermine nothing.

    How many Czechoslovaks were killed by Poles? How many cities were flattened?

    vs

    How many Poles were killed by Nazi homos? How many cities were flattened.

    *Poland is not innocent definetly, but to equate these type of things is nonsense*

    People like to also say Poland “collaberated with Nazis” because of some non aggression pact.

    What matters is alliances and mass murdering.

    (During WW2 and pre times there were many intersecting Non Aggrsesion Pacts between many parties).

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  76. Wally says:
    @snag
    Somebody who cites Jan Gross or Anne Applebaum it's someone with an agenda to whitewash Jewish atrocities. Somebody who writes the book like 'Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner of that atrocity is nothing but hasbara goon and zio-crap peddler.

    Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Kaganovich, Yagoda (Jews) responsible for Holodomor a genocide of 8 - 10 million starved to death Ukrainian farmland owners during one winter 1932/33*, a whole segment of society because for who they were which according to their formula constitutes holocaust not to mention ethnic cleansing of Crimean Tatars, again, by Kaganowich and his hand picked goons murdering half of the population on the spot with the remaining shipped to Gulags and other God forsaken places in Siberia designated to die and re-populating Crimea with Jewish settlers.

    *Compare it with the efficiency and costs German concentration camps.

    Somebody who writes 'Gulag: A History' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner is a liar with an agenda.

    Gulags - A forced labor camp system in reality a death camp system was more horrible than Auschwitz run by Matvei Berman and Naftaly Frenkel (founders) their buddies Lev Inzhir a commissar of the Gulag transit and administration, Firin, Rappoport, Kogan, Zhuk, were the commissars of camps and slave labor that supervised the construction of the Belomorsk Canal and other projects responsible for at least 30 million worked/starved to death "enemies" of the revolution. The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis.

    Somebody who writes that you can accommodate and incinerate 1600 people in small barn is insulting our intelligence not to mention that he's making up the participation of Poles in that event. Grosse's version of that account is a product of sick bastard who's parents were saved by some Polish sucker who risked his, his family and often his neighbors life allowing them to produce human maggot like him. Gross is a sociologist not historian as he claims.

    By the way, Auschwitz was chosen because of it's logistic location (middle of concentration of jewish population) and proximity of major railway junction.

    said:
    ” The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis.”

    What “death camps”? Please provide proof that the Germans built “death camps” to murder people in.

    Please provide proof that millions were allegedly murdered in them.

    Healthy Jews at Auschwitz ‘liberation’:
    http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/66935a.jpg

    - If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$”?

    - If the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?

    - If Jews are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like “what happened to them then?
    After all, Jews say ’6M Jews & 5M others’ went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind.

    Thanks.
    http://www.codoh.com

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Hmmm so, according to you, why before the war Poland had 3 million Jewish citizens, and after war 100.000?
    , @snag
    Oh please, my father's fishing partner and close friend was there for four and a half years and survived. He told us that Russian POW's were ones that were most mistreated and murdered by starvation and frozen to death during the winter time. He also said that there were no Jews in Auschwitz. Birkenau was for Jews, he was sent there few times with some delivery of food and tobacco to SS and didn't see or hear about gas chambers. For Russian prisoners of war it was a death camp.
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  77. Tyrion 2 says:
    @jacques sheete

    You’re a national embarrassment and a slur on the Republican party.
     
    Both major parties are slurs on themselves and national embarrassments and worse, so what's your point?

    I suppose now that we've gone full commie (since FDR), Nazism is verboten?

    You really think that FDR's, Churchill's and Stalin's brands of fascism were substantially different from Wall Street supported Bolshevism?

    Our own government, especially the Izzy firsters, are not only an embarrassment, but a menace to American society.

    The whole system stinks and has for over a century, and you think Art is a problem?

    Think peace!

    He is an albatross that will be hung over Trump’s neck. Were he a paid Democrat operative, he could not be more effective in undermining the Republican party.

    I know you’re thinking I’m just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It’d be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    I know you’re thinking I’m just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It’d be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.
     

    I wasn't thinking that at all, but I've long felt it odd that "Jews," who we all know are far above average in intelligence, knowledge, and special in their G-d's eye, should support, with complete lack of self awareness, the abominable terrorist State of Israel.

    What explains your inability to comprehend how toxic your views and actions are and how much harm the Zionist project is continuing to do to Jews in general?

    I'm especially amazed that such "gifted" folks should continue down those self destructive paths even though they were warned about the results by Jews with real brains.


    …It’s hard to imagine now, but in 1944, six years after Kristallnacht, Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, felt comfortable equating the Zionist ideal of Jewish statehood with “the concept of a racial state — the Hitlerian concept.” For most of the last century, a principled opposition to Zionism was a mainstream stance within American Judaism.
    Even after the foundation of Israel, anti-Zionism was not a particularly heretical position.

    -Ben Ehrenreich, Zionism is the problem
    http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15-story.html
     

    Jews who know their own history should be aware that such a state of affairs will inevitably lead to a new wave of Jew-hatred; the antisemitism of tomorrow will assert that Jews not only profiteered from the presence of foreign big powers in that region but had actually plotted it and hence are guilty of the consequences…

    -Hannah Arendt, Zionism Reconsidered, Jewish Writings p 345
    https://preview.tinyurl.com/yapfnfa5

     

    This stuff is so obvious that a dumb goy like myself can appreciate it, so why can't the bright ones, or don't they care? Or what?

    It seems pretty obvious that the Zionist State of Israel is the worst anti-Semitic and anti-Jew entity that ever existed. They've made a mockery of all that Jews claim to stand for, and to add insult to injury, the schmucks are mostly non-Semite, but Eastern European rejects!

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  78. polskijoe says:
    @Thales the Milesian
    The 2 nations that suffered the most at the hands of the Nazis were Poland and Byelorussia (Balarus).

    Quite true, percentage wise during WW2:

    Belarus lost 22% of citizens
    Poland lost 16% of citizens
    Ukraine lost 16% citizens
    Russia lost 13% of citizens
    Baltic countries lost 12% citizens.

    Poland, Belarus, Russia 9/10 were caused by Nazi homos.
    Ukraine and Baltics is more complicated. But for Ukraine Im guessing 7/10 caused by Nazis
    and Baltics, 5/10? (someone with more knowledge on Ukraine and Baltics can correct me).

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Germany, including those who died after WWII, 11 million, about 25%;
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  79. Tyrion 2 says:
    @polskijoe
    Thanks for the article. Europeans (and even more so Americans) need to be informed,

    that the Jews are NOT innoccent either. They also participated with Nazism and Communism.

    I am not gonna blame all Jews, but organized Jewry is irrational, annoying, and quite frankly mad.

    So why are there arguments over this law? Do Jews want to keep the monopoly of the genocide or Holocaust to themselves? What does a name change bother them?

    The majority of organised Jewry is Israel and Israel has been a clear friend of the European right for all of my living memory.

    Read More
    • Replies: @polskijoe
    Depending on which right wing political groups.

    When it comes to the elites:

    Some of the Populists and National Conservatives have Zionist allies.
    Some do NOT

    Historically Catholic parties werent Zionist friendly. May have changed in the 1-3 decades, because US/UK Intellgience agencies got more power in powerful organizations like Le Cercle. This lead to introducing Neocons into original Catholic secret organizations.

    Whent it comes to the people:

    Most Continental Europeans right wings (populists, nationalists, etc) are not fans of Jews or Zionism.


    Compared to the USA

    The Ring wing elites are heavily with Jews/Zionists.
    And most Republicans support Isreal, more than any other nation.
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  80. iffen says:
    @szopen

    Poland’s dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand.
     
    That's not a real summary.

    (1) for years Hitler was assuring Poland that Danzig is non-issue

    (2) Then he demanded not just "Danzig rail corridor". His demands varied, but in general there were those:

    (a) plebiscite in Western Poland, in which Polish military, police would withdraw, all Poles who settled there after 1919 would be forbidden to vote, while every German who was born before 1919 there could vote (ignoring the fact that many of those were settlers or children of military and police)
    (b) Danzig would go to Germany
    (c) Poland would join Axis.

    He would then guarantee Poland's borders.

    Now, given that he already has given several promises, and he always broke them, nobody in Poland believed in his single word. He said "this is my last demand" after Sudetenland,then after incorporating rest of Czechoslovakia. I'd say that it's reasonable to expect that if Poland would agree to his "reasonable" demands, then he would continue to make new demands.

    Not to mention that demand of plebiscite in Western Poland on his conditions was clearly a demand impossible to fulfill and could be given only to a state already defeated in war.

    I was hoping that you would come in with your excellent comments regarding Polish history and politics.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    To be honest I am not sure if any, no matter how reasonable, demand put by Hitler would be fulfilled by Poland. The historical context matters and in 1939 Polish government had no trust in Hitler's words.

    Part of that could be because of cult of personality surrounding Pilsudski who supposedly warned that Germany will inevitably attack Poland and the first signal will be demands with regards to Danzig (whether Pilsudski really thought that war with Germany will happened at latest in 1940 is debatable; it could be that his epigones simply wanted to perpetuate the vision of Pilsudski as great visionary and political genius). Part of that was internal politics and internal strifes, with government (rightfull or wrong) being affraid that if it would fulfill German demands, it would be overthrown.

    The key fact is, however, that Hitler's demands were not reasonable.
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  81. polskijoe says:
    @DESERT FOX
    The holocaust involved more than the jews, there were many other races and religions that were sent to death in the camps, and all of these are small in comparison the what the communist jews in Russia did to the Russian people, an estimated 50 to 60 million were killed from 1917 to 1953.

    The holocaust involved more than the jews, there were many other races and religions that were sent to death in the camps,

    Agreed. Actually the Jews were a minority of those killed.

    , and all of these are small in comparison the what the communist jews in Russia did to the Russian people, an estimated 50 to 60 million were killed from 1917 to 1953.

    Completely disagree. Those figures outdated and disproven. Most of those estimates were made before known files were realeased. Some of those estimates were made decades ago.

    Victims killed by Stalin included Russians but also large amounts of nonRussians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Max Denken
    @polskijoe
    It's useless to argue with religious fanatics, and so you'll not succeed in convincing @desert fox or the Hitler-was-cool crazies trolling here. You can no more teach them the facts as to exactly who murdered the 30-40 million Russians as you can about the Holodomor.

    "The Jews" murdered millions of Ukrainians, they'll continue proclaiming to their dying day, even though already in 2010, a high court in Kiev -- and that's perhaps the least philosemitic city in Europe -- decreed that the blame for the Holodomor rests with one Georgian, two Russians, two Jews, one Pole and one Ukrainian. http://memorialholodomor.org.ua/eng/holodomor/genocide/court-order.

    Likewise, if you mention that Stalin, Lenin, Beria, Yezhov, Blokhin, Dherzhinsky etc. etc. were not Jews, they'll pull out something written by a similarly deranged mind, arguing that they were.
    It's useless. I just wish they stopped trolling here and went to their IHR, Faurisson, Duke & Co. -- a friendly environment for them that I would not be as uncivil as invading.
    , @DESERT FOX
    These figures of 50 to 60 million are from Solzhentsyns book The Gulag Archipelago and Robert Conquests book Harvest of Sorrow, and others. The Jews were the vast majority of the communists in the Soviet aka communist government and ran the slaughter houses known as the Cheka, etc., these figures are not an exaggeration , and in fact may be on the low side.

    If the Zionists take our guns away we will see similar events right here in River City.
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    It wouldn’t surprise me that Stalin’s death tolls are exaggerated, but by comparison Hitler’s are pure fabrication.
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  82. szopen says:
    @Beckow
    You are intentionally mixing up 1919-20 with what happened in 1938. Focus. It was a land-grab pure and simple, and it predated a similar land-grab by Soviets a year later to 'reunite Ukrainians and Belorussians'. The arguments used by Poland and Soviets were identical.

    Czechs arrogant continous innuendos that Poland is just backward primitive state which will soon collapse
     
    That is just random. How long would you have to dig in millions of articles, speeches and throw-away lines to show that? You can write a similar sentence about almost any nation 'saying' that about its neighbours at that time. Poland says it today daily about Russia. Or do they? See how slippery these generalisations can be?

    Did you somehow missed the line when I have written, to quote myself: I still think that we were wrong in 1938?

    I have just provided the context.

    I do not say BTW about Czech innuendos justifying Polish taking of (majority Polish) Zaolzie, I have just written that Polish-Czechoslovakian relationships were pretty bad not just because of Zaolzie, but also because of attitude of Czech politicians.

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    • Replies: @Beckow
    I didn't miss it, since we agree on that, I didn't mention it.

    Polish-Czechoslovakian relationships were pretty bad not just because of Zaolzie, but also because of attitude of Czech politicians
     
    The attitude had to be on both sides. I usually don't defend Czech politicians, especially the ones from Prague, but they are generally a sensible group that avoids provocations. Maybe what you refer to is the general stereotype that Czechs and Poles have of each other (go to Poland to bark and back to Czech to eat). Even some Poles share that attitude. One reason the relationship is bad is the Czech self-perception as rational people and perception of Poles as more emotional, and often not in touch with reality when it comes to economics or history. Notice the sober Czech relationship with both Germany and Russia that plays it safe and compare to a more noisy - one could say self-defeating - attitudes that prevail in Poland. My view, is that given our strategic situation we should be closer. But I will not march on Moscow for you, that's just stupid. You march east again, you are marching alone...
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  83. @Beckow

    Warsaw Jewish ghetto…. that Lithuanians were enlisted (by Germans) to carry out final dispersal, and subsequently the Lithuanians were put on a ship that was [purposely] sunk
     
    I would like to know more about it. But two terms bother me: 'final dispersal' and 'purposely sunk'. Those can be interpreted differently. Self-serving story telling takes a true event, weaves a story out of it, and adds a few subjective terms that suggest a political meaning. When you actually think about it is always more complex. How would you sink a ship with only the Lithuanians? What does 'final' mean?

    WWII in eastern Europe was a very messy affair. There were a lot of inconsistencies. There were millions of local 'Volk Deutsch' (Germans ethnics who had lived there for centuries). There were also a lot of people whose nationality was fluid. A son of the pre-war head of Czech nationalists joined SS and was killed for that after the war by nationalists returning from London. Of course, later he was added to the list of 'victims of communism', it made the numbers look better. My grandpa's family was assigned a German soldier to live in his house, a middle-aged baker from Berlin who was telling the locals how to survive, when was the front coming. The same German unit then shot three local 'educated' people on their way out of village. Mindless revenge? Quota? Nihilism?

    Given all that happened, any side in this belated ideological battle can draw on lots of 'stories'. In the West there has been a slow, subtle effort to shift the blame away from the Germans because Germany is a key ally for Nato. And no matter how much people here will deny it, there is a strong ethnic kinship with Germans in UK and US. (Prince Harry marches in a Nazi uniform for a reason even if it is a joke). Among many Jews there is identification with German culture and an ambivalent attitude that often prefers to go after the Poles. It is also geo-politically better. We see in the past what we want to see.

    And no matter how much people here will deny it, there is a strong ethnic kinship with Germans in UK and US

    Britain must be one of the most obsessively anti-German countries in Europe, their entire public discourse is full of perpetual references to the world wars and Germany’s alleged quest to dominate Europe even today. And while there are lots of Americans with some German ancestry, this doesn’t really manifest itself in any German cultural power in the US or in positive attitudes towards Germany (at least I’ve never noticed anything of the kind…more like we’re always being reminded that we’re still on probation and can’t really be trusted).
    Nor do I buy that there is a concerted effort to blame Poles for the Holocaust due to geopolitical reasons. The truth is simply that lots of Jews dislike Poles for the traditional antisemitism in Polish society (which shouldn’t be confused with Nazi exterminationist antisemitism) and therefore have a warped view of WW2 realities in Poland.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beckow
    Well, it is relative. Britain dislikes a lot of other countries, so superficially you will also find anti-German expressions. (I once mentioned the term 'Irish Express' to a Brit - logistics company - and he promptly called it an oxymoron.) I am talking about the national policy - the stuff that comes out of British universities, media, government.

    The national policy (of both US and UK) is skewed towards Germany. They are in Nato together, so it is understandable. There has been quite a bit of well funded effort (books, lectures, etc...) to shift some of the blame for WWII from Germany, it is also always referred to as 'Nazis', not Germans.

    Whenever Germans show some independent thought, the WWII is used to bludgeon them back into obedience. But as long as they are loyal, the downplaying and relativisation continues. In general, British an American understanding of WWII is bizarrely false, but I don't want to get into that - complex and long topic.
    , @David In TN
    The late historian Stephen Ambrose, a major booster of the "Greatest Generation," once wrote that almost a third of American soldiers in World War II were "ethnically German."

    I don't think this is very often acknowledged.
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  84. iffen says:
    @Tyrion 2
    Hey Art,

    I've found you, you 70 year old crazy lunatic!

    Arthur Jones formerly of the American Nazi Party. You're a national embarrassment and a slur on the Republican party.

    Why not boost them by dropping out and declaring that they are the opposite of Nazis and so you had to leave?

    Best regards,

    Me.

    You shouldn’t try to dox people, Tyrion 2.

    And, there is something about your comments that give some anti-anti-Semites a second thoughts.

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    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I'm not doxing him. It is more than public information. I am merely connecting the dots. His postings here can't possibly lower this self-admitted American Nazi in the public's esteem. Nothing is below 0 Kelvin. Can't he get over himself enough to realise the entirely pointless harm this senile old fool is doing? What a tit...
    , @Art
    iffen --- Thanks much for your words to Tyrion 2 --- he is a child. Peace --- Art
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  85. polskijoe says:
    @Tyrion 2
    The majority of organised Jewry is Israel and Israel has been a clear friend of the European right for all of my living memory.

    Depending on which right wing political groups.

    When it comes to the elites:

    Some of the Populists and National Conservatives have Zionist allies.
    Some do NOT

    Historically Catholic parties werent Zionist friendly. May have changed in the 1-3 decades, because US/UK Intellgience agencies got more power in powerful organizations like Le Cercle. This lead to introducing Neocons into original Catholic secret organizations.

    Whent it comes to the people:

    Most Continental Europeans right wings (populists, nationalists, etc) are not fans of Jews or Zionism.

    Compared to the USA

    The Ring wing elites are heavily with Jews/Zionists.
    And most Republicans support Isreal, more than any other nation.

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  86. szopen says:

    One Polish publicist argued that the law was intended by the proposers to signal to its hardcore base “see, we will fight anti-polonism!”, while intended to be toothless.

    I have to say that while I am rightwing, maybe even right-wing nationalist, I think the law is badly written and should not be signed at all – not because of 55a, but because of art 55b (punishing foreign citizens in foreign countries is not the brightest idea to be put into the law). However, the hysterical reaction by both domestic comprador elites, leftists abroad and Israeli too means I do not think we should step back on this. Moreover, the law is superfluous because two already existing laws can be combined to more or less the same effect.

    There are many other laws restricting free speech in Poland which are quite stupid and should be abandoned. For example, a law which in theory could be used to accuse Polish citizen because he writes something like “our president is stupid” or even “President of some African country is stupid”. In the second case, the law was until now used I think _once_ since 1989, but even in this law exists mainly in theory, it still should be removed.

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  87. szopen says:
    @iffen
    I was hoping that you would come in with your excellent comments regarding Polish history and politics.

    To be honest I am not sure if any, no matter how reasonable, demand put by Hitler would be fulfilled by Poland. The historical context matters and in 1939 Polish government had no trust in Hitler’s words.

    Part of that could be because of cult of personality surrounding Pilsudski who supposedly warned that Germany will inevitably attack Poland and the first signal will be demands with regards to Danzig (whether Pilsudski really thought that war with Germany will happened at latest in 1940 is debatable; it could be that his epigones simply wanted to perpetuate the vision of Pilsudski as great visionary and political genius). Part of that was internal politics and internal strifes, with government (rightfull or wrong) being affraid that if it would fulfill German demands, it would be overthrown.

    The key fact is, however, that Hitler’s demands were not reasonable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    RE: this article.

    Overall, it was a pretty good piece, don't you think?

    The Israeli/Jewish reactions to some events are definitely entering bizzaro world.

    , @iffen
    Is there a definitive account of Pilsudski?
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  88. szopen says:
    @Wally
    said:
    " The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis."

    What "death camps"? Please provide proof that the Germans built "death camps" to murder people in.

    Please provide proof that millions were allegedly murdered in them.

    Healthy Jews at Auschwitz 'liberation':

    http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/85600.jpg
    http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/66935a.jpg

    - If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$"?

    - If the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?

    - If Jews are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like "what happened to them then?
    After all, Jews say '6M Jews & 5M others' went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind.

    Thanks.
    www.codoh.com

    Hmmm so, according to you, why before the war Poland had 3 million Jewish citizens, and after war 100.000?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    recited:
    "Hmmm so, according to you, why before the war Poland had 3 million Jewish citizens, and after war 100.000?"

    Who said that? Not me.

    It is you who says they went to enormous & known mass graves. So why can't you show us the alleged huge Jew remains?

    Tell us how the alleged, laughable, but impossible 'gas chambers' worked.

    You predictably dodged these questions:

    - If some are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like "what happened to them then?

    After all, Jews say '6M Jews & 5M others' went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind.

    - If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$"?

    - If the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?

    Must reads here:
    Holocaust Handbooks, Documentaries, & Videos: http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1
    Probing the Holocaust, pt. 1 https://codoh.com/library/document/4056/?lang=en
    and:
    Chemistry of Auschwitz / Birkenau
    https://youtu.be/SUc6Y_E5zb0

    www.codoh.com

    , @renfro
    Evidently you haven't really done through research....Jews in Poland and many other countries left for other countries all during the war.


    Full text of "Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its activities during the second world war (September 1, 1939 - June 30, 1947), Volumes 1 - 3 (complete)"

    https://archive.org/stream/ReportOfTheInternationalCommitteeOfTheRedCrossOnItsActivitiesDuring/ReportOfTheInternationalCommitteeOfTheRedCrossOnItsActivitiesDuringTheSecondWorldWarseptember11939-June301947Vol1_djvu.txt

    “‘The Committee’s delegates were able to visit the camp at Theresienstadt (Terezin) which was used exclusively for Jews and was governed by special conditions. From information gathered by the Committee, this camp had been started as an experiment by certain leaders of the Reich … These men wished to give the Jews the means of setting up a communal life in a town under their own administration and possessing almost complete autonomy. . . two delegates were able to visit the camp on April 6th, 1945. They confirmed the favourable impression gained on the first visit” (Vol. I, p . 642).

    (The Jews held at Theresienstadt also got visas to Palestine during the war.)


    “A large proportion of the Jewish minority had permission to stay in the country, and at certain periods Slovakia was looked upon as a comparative haven of refuge for Jews, especially for those coming from Poland. Those who remained in Slovakia seem to have been in comparative safety until the end of August 1944, when a rising against the German forces took place. While it is true that the law of May 15th, 1942 had brought about the internment of several thousand Jews, these people were held in camps where the conditions of food and lodging were tolerable, and where the internees were allowed to do paid work on terms almost equal to those of the free labour market” (Vol. I, p. 646).

    “The Jews from Poland who, whilst in France, had obtained entrance permits to the United States were held to be American citizens by the German occupying authorities, who further agreed to recognize the validity of about three thousand passports issued to Jews by the consulates of South American countries” (Vol. I, p. 645).

    The emigration of European Jews from Hungary in particular proceeded during the war unhindered by the German authorities. Until March 1944, Jews who had the privilege of visas for Palestine were free to leave Hungary” (Vol. I, p. 648).

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  89. polskijoe says:
    @Miro23

    The memo gave the Polish government a three-point ultimatum: either “resolve” this issue –- needless to say to America’s and international Jewry’s satisfaction — or else Poland’s leaders will be barred from White House meetings, U.S. Congress will block funds for joint military projects in Poland including the stationing of U.S. troops there within the NATO framework, and there will be further “dramatic” consequences in case an American citizen is charged under the new law.
     
    A good opportunity for Poland to finish with the USA. Poland doesn't have any real "security guarantee" from the US, and any lingering affection for Ronald Reagan among the Poles, is wholly misplaced. The current US administration is just putting Poland in the front line of a fabricated US/Russia conflict - so it's a good opportunity to remove NATO troops from the country along with their missiles and missile bases.

    Poles, like many other people around the world, have lost contact with the US public, and are realizing that they are dealing instead with the psychotic crowd that cooked up WMD and did 9/11.

    Anglo (in US and UK) with their Jewish money masters and “intellectuals”

    want Europe to be divided. Making sure no group dominates.

    1)They want to prevent Russia-German relations
    2)They want to prevent Polish-Russian relations.

    Poles MUST understand the US will choose Israel and Jews over Poles.

    Many Polish generals know that US will do little to help.
    40% of Poles think NATO would NOT help against major invasion.

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    • Replies: @Miro23

    Poles MUST understand the US will choose Israel and Jews over Poles.

    Many Polish generals know that US will do little to help.
     
    This much is clear, so being realistic, Poland needs to remove NATO missile bases. Poland will get nothing from the US, so a least reduce the risk by stopping cooperation with the US in threatening Russia from Polish soil.
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  90. snag says:
    @Beckow
    What Poland did in 1938 after Munich to Czechoslovakia was identical to what Nazi Germany did. A multi-ethnic territory that legally belonged to a neighbouring country was occupied by Poland.

    The same is true about the Soviet Union's annexation of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus in 1939. They occupied areas that were inhabited mostly by Ukrainians and Belorussians. And also after Germany attacked Poland. If Poland did it, why shouldn't others do it to Poland?

    Different nations, different scale, but exactly the same principle - 'protect people of your nationality' living in neighbouring countries.

    The fact that Poland did the same thing to Czechoslovakia undermines Polish claims to some martyr purity. Would you stop with the preachy pontificating about Poland always being 'just a victim'? (And Wiki as a source? Right, I am sure the Polish version is really 'nuanced'.)

    One more time, concentrate, read what’s provided to you and spare me this Soviet Union’s, Western Ukraine and Western Belarus dancing. You’re already admitted that it was a ‘multi-ethnic territory’ now read the history.

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  91. Mulegino1 says:

    Back in the 1930′s, Europeans of Christian descent were fed up with the International Whiners’ Litigants’ and Usurers’ Club a.k.a. international Jewry; nowadays that sentiment is growing exponentially by orders of magnitude.

    The ideological crutch of Jewry’s guilt based dominance of the western moral narrative is being pulled out from under it by stubborn and fact based revisionism.

    The Shoah Business has always been a remarkably adaptive and protean narrative around which the evidence must fit in Procrustean fashion. First, it was “Shoah by ovens”, then “Shoah by gassings”, then “Shoah by bullets.” Pretty soon it will be “Shoah by anecdote”, i.e., somebody’s grandfather’s great aunt saw someone shot by an S.S. man, a baby torn in half by a Ukrainian auxiliary or kicked to death by an enraged Pole. The narrative will be kept alive even if life support, as long as international Jewry can use it to shake down Europe and the world. I would daresay that pretty soon they will place blame on the United States and demand reparations and the U.S. Congress will gladly oblige. The Jewish collective’s one common dream is that both China and Japan will ultimately take responsibility for this “greatest crime in all of history.” Then the encirclement of the globe in a vise of kosher guilt will be complete.

    It is indeed gratifying that the Poles are giving the Jewish gander his own sauce. As one proceeds from western and central Europe south and east, the level of Jew awareness goes up. The Poles and Russians know first hand what it is to carry this scorpion on their back.

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  92. @polskijoe
    Quite true, percentage wise during WW2:

    Belarus lost 22% of citizens
    Poland lost 16% of citizens
    Ukraine lost 16% citizens
    Russia lost 13% of citizens
    Baltic countries lost 12% citizens.

    Poland, Belarus, Russia 9/10 were caused by Nazi homos.
    Ukraine and Baltics is more complicated. But for Ukraine Im guessing 7/10 caused by Nazis
    and Baltics, 5/10? (someone with more knowledge on Ukraine and Baltics can correct me).

    Germany, including those who died after WWII, 11 million, about 25%;

    Read More
    • Replies: @polskijoe
    Germany alone lost 8% (no where near 25% percent).

    Including Austria, and Germans outside Germany: losses = 9%

    (in both posts losses I refer to dead and missing).


    Im wondering what BS source you are using? Rense? Liberty Lobby? IHR?
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  93. snag says:
    @Wally
    said:
    " The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis."

    What "death camps"? Please provide proof that the Germans built "death camps" to murder people in.

    Please provide proof that millions were allegedly murdered in them.

    Healthy Jews at Auschwitz 'liberation':

    http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/85600.jpg
    http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/66935a.jpg

    - If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$"?

    - If the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?

    - If Jews are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like "what happened to them then?
    After all, Jews say '6M Jews & 5M others' went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind.

    Thanks.
    www.codoh.com

    Oh please, my father’s fishing partner and close friend was there for four and a half years and survived. He told us that Russian POW’s were ones that were most mistreated and murdered by starvation and frozen to death during the winter time. He also said that there were no Jews in Auschwitz. Birkenau was for Jews, he was sent there few times with some delivery of food and tobacco to SS and didn’t see or hear about gas chambers. For Russian prisoners of war it was a death camp.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Indeed, the impossible 'gas chambers' are pure fiction.

    said:
    "For Russian prisoners of war it was a death camp."

    No it wasn't, you have no proof. Regardless of the "fishing partner's" tall tale.
    Again, another "survivor" of an alleged "death camp". Hardly credible.
    A lot of people say things / lie, just research witchcraft.

    Thanks.

    www.codoh.com

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  94. Razparuk says:
    @Beckow
    You are intentionally mixing up 1919-20 with what happened in 1938. Focus. It was a land-grab pure and simple, and it predated a similar land-grab by Soviets a year later to 'reunite Ukrainians and Belorussians'. The arguments used by Poland and Soviets were identical.

    Czechs arrogant continous innuendos that Poland is just backward primitive state which will soon collapse
     
    That is just random. How long would you have to dig in millions of articles, speeches and throw-away lines to show that? You can write a similar sentence about almost any nation 'saying' that about its neighbours at that time. Poland says it today daily about Russia. Or do they? See how slippery these generalisations can be?

    Czechoslovakia didn’tresist in result Poland have to choose, let Hitler grab many Poles to exterminate or not..second thing was industry.. third was resentiments after 1919-21. Bad thing and moraly wrong…

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  95. @szopen

    Poland’s dictator was arrogant, insulted Hitler, and refused to discuss a Danzig rail corridor to East Prussia, which other nations thought a reasonable demand.
     
    That's not a real summary.

    (1) for years Hitler was assuring Poland that Danzig is non-issue

    (2) Then he demanded not just "Danzig rail corridor". His demands varied, but in general there were those:

    (a) plebiscite in Western Poland, in which Polish military, police would withdraw, all Poles who settled there after 1919 would be forbidden to vote, while every German who was born before 1919 there could vote (ignoring the fact that many of those were settlers or children of military and police)
    (b) Danzig would go to Germany
    (c) Poland would join Axis.

    He would then guarantee Poland's borders.

    Now, given that he already has given several promises, and he always broke them, nobody in Poland believed in his single word. He said "this is my last demand" after Sudetenland,then after incorporating rest of Czechoslovakia. I'd say that it's reasonable to expect that if Poland would agree to his "reasonable" demands, then he would continue to make new demands.

    Not to mention that demand of plebiscite in Western Poland on his conditions was clearly a demand impossible to fulfill and could be given only to a state already defeated in war.

    Danzig never was a non issue, read
    Günter Grass, ‘Beim Häuten der Zwiebel’, München 2008
    Grass lived in Danzig.
    He also explains how Germans, some of his relatives did, living in Poland were discriminated by Poles.

    The corridor had nothing to do with Danzig.
    After Versailles E Prussia could not be reached overland from Germany.
    E Prussia had bad harbours.
    Therefore Hitler wanted an extraterritorial corridor from Germany to E Prussia, wide enough for a motorway, four lane, and a double railway.

    That was all he wanted.

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    • Replies: @szopen

    That was all he wanted.
     
    No. You are misinformed. Initially in April yes, but the final ultimatum was (from wikipedia):

    "Danzig was to return to Germany and there was to be a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor; Poles who had been born or had settled there since 1919 would have no vote, while all Germans born but not living there would. An exchange of minority populations between the two countries was proposed. If Poland accepted these terms, Germany would agree to the British offer of an international guarantee, which would include the Soviet Union. A Polish plenipotentiary, with full powers, was to arrive in Berlin and accept these terms by noon the next day."

    Poland also was willing to negotiate, but Hitler deemed all Polish counterproposals as "unreasonable"

    "We have given the German Reich all railway facilities,

    GERMAN-POLISH DISCUSSIONS 41

    we have allowed its citizens to travel without customs or passport formalities from the Reich to East Prussia. We have suggested the extension of similar facilities to road traffic.

    22. And here again the question arises-what is the real object of it all?

    23. We have no interest in obstructing German citizens in their communication with their eastern province. But we have, on the other hand, no reason whatever to restrict our sovereignty on our own territory."

    , @iffen
    That was all he wanted.

    ROFLMAO
    , @szopen
    You can read there a Polish response to German demands and then tell me whether those response was unreasonable and hostile.

    http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/bb/bb-042.html

    And, BTW, before complaining about discrimination of Germans in Poland (which is true to some extent) you should also read something about discrimination of Poles in Germany (which somehow never comes in a discussion)

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  96. @Tyrion 2
    He is an albatross that will be hung over Trump's neck. Were he a paid Democrat operative, he could not be more effective in undermining the Republican party.

    I know you're thinking I'm just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It'd be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.

    I know you’re thinking I’m just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It’d be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.

    I wasn’t thinking that at all, but I’ve long felt it odd that “Jews,” who we all know are far above average in intelligence, knowledge, and special in their G-d’s eye, should support, with complete lack of self awareness, the abominable terrorist State of Israel.

    What explains your inability to comprehend how toxic your views and actions are and how much harm the Zionist project is continuing to do to Jews in general?

    I’m especially amazed that such “gifted” folks should continue down those self destructive paths even though they were warned about the results by Jews with real brains.

    …It’s hard to imagine now, but in 1944, six years after Kristallnacht, Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, felt comfortable equating the Zionist ideal of Jewish statehood with “the concept of a racial state — the Hitlerian concept.” For most of the last century, a principled opposition to Zionism was a mainstream stance within American Judaism.
    Even after the foundation of Israel, anti-Zionism was not a particularly heretical position.

    -Ben Ehrenreich, Zionism is the problem

    http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15-story.html

    Jews who know their own history should be aware that such a state of affairs will inevitably lead to a new wave of Jew-hatred; the antisemitism of tomorrow will assert that Jews not only profiteered from the presence of foreign big powers in that region but had actually plotted it and hence are guilty of the consequences…

    -Hannah Arendt, Zionism Reconsidered, Jewish Writings p 345

    https://preview.tinyurl.com/yapfnfa5

    This stuff is so obvious that a dumb goy like myself can appreciate it, so why can’t the bright ones, or don’t they care? Or what?

    It seems pretty obvious that the Zionist State of Israel is the worst anti-Semitic and anti-Jew entity that ever existed. They’ve made a mockery of all that Jews claim to stand for, and to add insult to injury, the schmucks are mostly non-Semite, but Eastern European rejects!

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    It is quite possible that the murder of the German diplomat in Paris was planned as a provocation.
    If it was, Goebbels took the bait
    The Kristallnacht was splendid propaganda against Hitler Germany.
    René d’Argile, etc., Das Geheimnis um die Ursachen des Zweiten Weltkrieges, Wiesbaden 1958 ( Les Origines Secrêtes de la Guerre 1939 – 1945, Paris 1958).
    , @Tyrion 2
    Jews get blamed for not having a state pre-1945. Jews get blamed for having a state post-1948. Maybe there really is something to this chosen people/tears of history sort of interpretation.
    , @CanSpeccy

    This stuff is so obvious that a dumb goy like myself
     
    It's obvious to Zionist Jews like Tyrion 2 too, but they're the chosen ones, so in their view there's no moral equivalence between what they do and what the cattle do.
    , @Z-man

    It seems pretty obvious that the Zionist State of Israel is the worst anti-Semitic and anti-Jew entity that ever existed. They’ve made a mockery of all that Jews claim to stand for, and to add insult to injury, the schmucks are mostly non-Semite, but Eastern European rejects!
     
    Well said.
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  97. Beckow says:
    @szopen
    Did you somehow missed the line when I have written, to quote myself: I still think that we were wrong in 1938?

    I have just provided the context.

    I do not say BTW about Czech innuendos justifying Polish taking of (majority Polish) Zaolzie, I have just written that Polish-Czechoslovakian relationships were pretty bad not just because of Zaolzie, but also because of attitude of Czech politicians.

    I didn’t miss it, since we agree on that, I didn’t mention it.

    Polish-Czechoslovakian relationships were pretty bad not just because of Zaolzie, but also because of attitude of Czech politicians

    The attitude had to be on both sides. I usually don’t defend Czech politicians, especially the ones from Prague, but they are generally a sensible group that avoids provocations. Maybe what you refer to is the general stereotype that Czechs and Poles have of each other (go to Poland to bark and back to Czech to eat). Even some Poles share that attitude. One reason the relationship is bad is the Czech self-perception as rational people and perception of Poles as more emotional, and often not in touch with reality when it comes to economics or history. Notice the sober Czech relationship with both Germany and Russia that plays it safe and compare to a more noisy – one could say self-defeating – attitudes that prevail in Poland. My view, is that given our strategic situation we should be closer. But I will not march on Moscow for you, that’s just stupid. You march east again, you are marching alone…

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  98. iffen says:
    @szopen
    To be honest I am not sure if any, no matter how reasonable, demand put by Hitler would be fulfilled by Poland. The historical context matters and in 1939 Polish government had no trust in Hitler's words.

    Part of that could be because of cult of personality surrounding Pilsudski who supposedly warned that Germany will inevitably attack Poland and the first signal will be demands with regards to Danzig (whether Pilsudski really thought that war with Germany will happened at latest in 1940 is debatable; it could be that his epigones simply wanted to perpetuate the vision of Pilsudski as great visionary and political genius). Part of that was internal politics and internal strifes, with government (rightfull or wrong) being affraid that if it would fulfill German demands, it would be overthrown.

    The key fact is, however, that Hitler's demands were not reasonable.

    RE: this article.

    Overall, it was a pretty good piece, don’t you think?

    The Israeli/Jewish reactions to some events are definitely entering bizzaro world.

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    • Agree: szopen
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  99. @polskijoe

    The holocaust involved more than the jews, there were many other races and religions that were sent to death in the camps,
     
    Agreed. Actually the Jews were a minority of those killed.

    , and all of these are small in comparison the what the communist jews in Russia did to the Russian people, an estimated 50 to 60 million were killed from 1917 to 1953.
     
    Completely disagree. Those figures outdated and disproven. Most of those estimates were made before known files were realeased. Some of those estimates were made decades ago.

    Victims killed by Stalin included Russians but also large amounts of nonRussians.


    It’s useless to argue with religious fanatics, and so you’ll not succeed in convincing @desert fox or the Hitler-was-cool crazies trolling here. You can no more teach them the facts as to exactly who murdered the 30-40 million Russians as you can about the Holodomor.

    “The Jews” murdered millions of Ukrainians, they’ll continue proclaiming to their dying day, even though already in 2010, a high court in Kiev — and that’s perhaps the least philosemitic city in Europe — decreed that the blame for the Holodomor rests with one Georgian, two Russians, two Jews, one Pole and one Ukrainian. http://memorialholodomor.org.ua/eng/holodomor/genocide/court-order.

    Likewise, if you mention that Stalin, Lenin, Beria, Yezhov, Blokhin, Dherzhinsky etc. etc. were not Jews, they’ll pull out something written by a similarly deranged mind, arguing that they were.
    It’s useless. I just wish they stopped trolling here and went to their IHR, Faurisson, Duke & Co. — a friendly environment for them that I would not be as uncivil as invading.

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    • Agree: polskijoe
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    It’s useless to argue with religious fanatics...
     
    Does that include fake monotheists, rabid JINOs, deranged rabbis, and "ethno"-fanatics such as the Izzy first crowd?

    How do we deal with the likes of this creature and its supporters?


    “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel.”
    Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat.”According to Yosef, death has “no dominion” over non-Jews in Israel.
    "Hate the Gentile!" Israel’s Racist Rabbis, by JONATHAN COOK
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/12/10/israel-s-racist-rabbis/
     
    What about one of the chief agitators for war, "rabbi" Stephen Wise, an intimate of FDR, the Red? What are we to think?
    , @polskijoe
    Hitler lovers and pro Nazi revisionists are annoying as hell. They can enjoy their diversity and liberalism. It was their policies which destroyed much of Europe resulting in Liberalism and Zionism winning.

    Ukrainian Nationalists and Nazi larpers like to claim 10-14 million Ukrainians died.

    Yet most expperts have agreed directly 3-5 million Ukrainian starved.. and a couple million more Russians/Khazaks/Caucasians/etc. It was known as Soviet famine. Holodomar refers to Ukrainians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%9333

    (wikipedia is biased and sometimes wrong, but its superior to any Nazi crap).


    Now when some Nazi mass murdering, raping, genociding, evils were busy shooting people for being untermenschen, bombing cities, and sending them to death camps then obviously they are too blame.


    Honestly I have even heard some larpers even claim Kalergi was a Jew, Stalin was a Jew, etc.
    (Kalergi was Japan-Euro hybrid) and Stalin was Georgian (Djugasvili does NOT mean son of a Jew).


    I dislike organized Jewry, but I will never side with Liberty Lobby, revisionist, genocide deniers.

    Germany has been attacking Slavic lands for 1000 years. Teutonic Knights, antiPolish scum
    like Bismarck (also antiCatholic), Hitler (also antiCatholic), Fredrick the "great", etc.

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  100. Great article. Jewish political theater is getting laughably out of control. The hasbarists actually believe their own Fake News.

    Jewish narcissism, Jewish conceit, and Jewish ethnocentrism are without peer, not to mention Jewish hypocrisy. It’s time to turn this kosher narrative on its head.

    Massive Jewish criminality in the form of organized, communist subversion and communist mass murder must be addressed also. Never forget real history. All of it.

    Ironically, international Jewish extremism gave cause and sustenance to the rise of Nazism.

    Nazism represented just one lethal political force among many. As usual, the Jews were in the middle of another hellstorm. Moreover, Hitler and Nazi Germany paid for their sins. But not the commies and Zions. They got away with murder. Yet they insist upon playing ‘victim’. Still. What a crock. This fabrication is today’s Biggest Lie.

    How many ex-commies received aid and comfort after WWII as citizens of the ‘Jewish State’?–or in the US? Plenty. Yet they’re always innocent, always blameless. These falsehoods must be addressed. Malcontents should not be celebrated. Mass murderers should not walk among us. And these same deceivers should not be allowed to pass moral (and judicial) judgement.

    The entire Zionist enterprise is soaked in blood. Zionists should pay reparations and restitution to their many victims. It’s time we addressed it. Loudly.

    The Holocaust yarn must also be put into perspective. Not only are the Jewish causality figures surely exaggerated, but the ongoing elevation of Jewish suffering trivializes the pain and horror that far greater numbers of non-Jews have had to endure over the past century or more.

    Finally, Israeli war crimes, international Zionist meddling and political interference must be confronted and repudiated. It’s time we pushed back. These criminals deserve to be recognized for what they are.

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    • Replies: @anarchyst
    A prime example of jewish zionist control of the mass media is the fact that on the 50th anniversary of the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty (GTR-5) on June 8, 1967, there was NOT ONE MENTION of the 50th anniversary of this event on any news media outlets. Normally, the 50th anniversary of just about any event gets mentioned, but not the USS Liberty (GTR-5).
    This is PROOF that the media is controlled by "you know who"...
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  101. iffen says:
    @Jonathan Revusky
    The article is really pretty cringe-inducing, since it is such a confused jumble. I feel like it requires a comment, but to comment on it requires one to disentangle the mess somewhat.

    As I see it, there are basically two categories of confusion here: intellectual and moral.

    Most of the 7500 word article is devoted to pushing a certain very partisan view of the history. Basically, the author tacitly accepts that the victors' version of WW2 is broadly correct and the endless demonization of Germans is something just. However, when it somehow splashes over and becomes a demonization of the Poles, then it is unjust. This is very confused, both intellectually and morally. Let's start with the intellectual confusion here...

    First of all, if (as I see it, anyway...) the central issue here is really freedom of speech, then on that level it doesn't matter so much which version of history is truthful. I can go onto Amazon and buy numerous books that say Abraham Lincoln was a great man. I can also buy other books (less numerous, but there are some) that say that he was a complete scoundrel. Moreover, the respective books will offer very different interpretations of that period of history, i.e. the American Civil war.

    One can know absolutely nothing about the history of that time period, yet still realize, on purely logical grounds, that both sides cannot be right. Moreover, a genuine advocate of free speech will hold that both sides of the debate have the right to put forward their viewpoint.

    This could be expressed more generally: when you have a debate, one side of the debate is affirming X, the other side is saying "not X". One side must be wrong surely, but that's not the point. The point is that you cannot prevail in an intellectual debate by illegalizing the other side's viewpoint! That should be self-evidently unacceptable!

    That is the central issue intellectually. (At least for me...) Now, the other massive hairy problem in all of this is the following:

    Zionist Jews have ZERO moral standing to condemn the Polish law in question.

    Once you accept the idea that one version of history is the correct one and anybody who disputes it is committing a crime, then you've opened Pandora's box and you cannot then complain what comes out of it. The same people lobbying for Holocaust denial laws throughout the West cannot then turn around and complain about this Polish law! This should be a laughing stock!

    So, to me, perhaps the most central thing about this is the utter hypocrisy of the Zionist Jews condemning this law on free speech grounds! I find the whole thing appalling, particularly as somebody of Jewish descent myself. I feel that Jewish ethnics who feel this way (and I know I cannot possibly be the only one) should more openly condemn this kind of blatant attempt to burn the candle on both ends.

    In general, as I have become more educated about certain matters, with a much more nuanced understanding of real history, I have become painfully aware of just how unfair this endless demonizing of the German people with this comic book version of history is. And again, in general, I think that honest, just Jews (there are some...) should more openly condemn this.

    Now, I agree with this Polish nationalist author that the demonization of Poles over period of history is something completely unjust, but his idea that the endless demonization of Germans is fair -- this is a very blinkered understanding of the issues. It is utterly confused -- as I said, both intellectually and morally. The author really needed to think through all these issues much more rigorously before embarking on such a long-winded essay.

    iffen says:
    March 11, 2018 at 6:49 pm GMT

    before embarking on such a long-winded essay
    But I thought word count was your measure of validity and value.
    • Troll: Jonathan Revusky

    Shit-eater.

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  102. @polskijoe

    The holocaust involved more than the jews, there were many other races and religions that were sent to death in the camps,
     
    Agreed. Actually the Jews were a minority of those killed.

    , and all of these are small in comparison the what the communist jews in Russia did to the Russian people, an estimated 50 to 60 million were killed from 1917 to 1953.
     
    Completely disagree. Those figures outdated and disproven. Most of those estimates were made before known files were realeased. Some of those estimates were made decades ago.

    Victims killed by Stalin included Russians but also large amounts of nonRussians.

    These figures of 50 to 60 million are from Solzhentsyns book The Gulag Archipelago and Robert Conquests book Harvest of Sorrow, and others. The Jews were the vast majority of the communists in the Soviet aka communist government and ran the slaughter houses known as the Cheka, etc., these figures are not an exaggeration , and in fact may be on the low side.

    If the Zionists take our guns away we will see similar events right here in River City.

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    • Replies: @polskijoe
    The figures are a complete lie. I dont fall for low iq nonsense.

    I have read Solzehnitsyn and Rummels studies. And many many more.

    Solhentsyn (who I respect) had no clue about the numbers though.

    Lets talk about Robert Conquest then and see how smart you are:

    The Harvest of Sorrow... Conquest said he didnt have enough sources to confirm his findings.

    In Great Terror book he suggested 20 million-30.
    Robert Conquest later changed his estimate to ~15 million to 20 million.


    US exagerated estimates for political purposes and ignorance.



    Want more facts?

    Jews were in high numbers during the Bolshevik times up (in the top leadership). Each decade later their numbers dropped and influence dropped. Which is why most Jews with Commie sympathy today support Trotsky and Lenin, not Stalin.

    I admit that many Gulag leaders during the 1930s were Jews. and Cheka.

    Either way
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  103. szopen says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Danzig never was a non issue, read
    Günter Grass, ‘Beim Häuten der Zwiebel’, München 2008
    Grass lived in Danzig.
    He also explains how Germans, some of his relatives did, living in Poland were discriminated by Poles.

    The corridor had nothing to do with Danzig.
    After Versailles E Prussia could not be reached overland from Germany.
    E Prussia had bad harbours.
    Therefore Hitler wanted an extraterritorial corridor from Germany to E Prussia, wide enough for a motorway, four lane, and a double railway.

    That was all he wanted.

    That was all he wanted.

    No. You are misinformed. Initially in April yes, but the final ultimatum was (from wikipedia):

    “Danzig was to return to Germany and there was to be a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor; Poles who had been born or had settled there since 1919 would have no vote, while all Germans born but not living there would. An exchange of minority populations between the two countries was proposed. If Poland accepted these terms, Germany would agree to the British offer of an international guarantee, which would include the Soviet Union. A Polish plenipotentiary, with full powers, was to arrive in Berlin and accept these terms by noon the next day.”

    Poland also was willing to negotiate, but Hitler deemed all Polish counterproposals as “unreasonable”

    “We have given the German Reich all railway facilities,

    GERMAN-POLISH DISCUSSIONS 41

    we have allowed its citizens to travel without customs or passport formalities from the Reich to East Prussia. We have suggested the extension of similar facilities to road traffic.

    22. And here again the question arises-what is the real object of it all?

    23. We have no interest in obstructing German citizens in their communication with their eastern province. But we have, on the other hand, no reason whatever to restrict our sovereignty on our own territory.”

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  104. @jacques sheete
    Thank you, sir.

    I have heretofore been impressed with jyles' reading lists and non-abusive comments, but I say that I've now become very disappointed in the quality of his views and not only because he presents as credible evidence, the tabloid style sensationalist fake "history' by the high society Glamour Girl, Bella Fromm , but also because he states that her story is credible because similar things were written by others!

    I had never heard of her, but it took all of 1/2 hour to see that she was nothing more than another rich attention seeking gadabout and gossip; she has no credibility in my mind, and jyles did himself a disservice by presenting her and then trying to defend his error.

    The truth is consistent, what Bella Fromm describes as anti jewish measures is corrobated by many other books.
    Such as
    Helmut Krausnick : Judenverfolgung, 1965, 1967, München
    Victor Klemperer, ‘I will bear witness, A diary of the Nazi years, 1942-1945’, New York 1999
    Saul Friedländer, ‘Nazi Germany & the Jews, The Years of Persecution 1933-39’, London, 1997

    Why do you think many jews fled to France or the Netherlands ?
    For fun ?
    The Netherlands had so many asjenazi jews as refugees that the assimilated Dutch sephardic jews became antisemites:
    Regina Grüters, ‘Een fantast schrijft geschiedenis, De affaires rond FRIEDRICH WEINBERG’, Netherlands, 1997

    Weinberg was an asjkenazi rabbi, fled from Germany.
    He became notorious after the war, he was condemned to a prison sentence after the war for collaboration with the Germans, letting himself paid by jews to prevent deportation, he influenced nothing, and spying in jail on fellow prisoners for the Germans.
    Dutch jewry saw him as a hero, he resisted the Germans.
    The controversy went on in Dutch journals into the eighties.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Why do you think many jews fled to France or the Netherlands ?
    For fun ?
     
    Fun possibly; drama, likely.

    I think because some were Marxists and the heat was on. Plus many were undoubtedly scared out of their wits by the Zionists who used terror as an "incentive" to motivate emigration to Palestine. Others probably just didn't want to be around when the war started, especially since it was inevitable that the Soviets would come. Is it not true that many people, Jews included fled to the Germans at the approach of the Soviet barbarians? Some, like your Glamour Girl tabloidist, thought there would be greener pastures in the USA or France or whereever; it was a common idea among many folks.

    No doubt there were other reasons.


    The truth is consistent, what Bella Fromm describes as anti jewish measures is corrobated by many other books.
     
    Why did she hob nob with the Nazis for 5 years before she decided to exit? She seems to have had quite the time cavorting with Nazis for a while. What changed?
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  105. iffen says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Danzig never was a non issue, read
    Günter Grass, ‘Beim Häuten der Zwiebel’, München 2008
    Grass lived in Danzig.
    He also explains how Germans, some of his relatives did, living in Poland were discriminated by Poles.

    The corridor had nothing to do with Danzig.
    After Versailles E Prussia could not be reached overland from Germany.
    E Prussia had bad harbours.
    Therefore Hitler wanted an extraterritorial corridor from Germany to E Prussia, wide enough for a motorway, four lane, and a double railway.

    That was all he wanted.

    That was all he wanted.

    ROFLMAO

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  106. szopen says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Danzig never was a non issue, read
    Günter Grass, ‘Beim Häuten der Zwiebel’, München 2008
    Grass lived in Danzig.
    He also explains how Germans, some of his relatives did, living in Poland were discriminated by Poles.

    The corridor had nothing to do with Danzig.
    After Versailles E Prussia could not be reached overland from Germany.
    E Prussia had bad harbours.
    Therefore Hitler wanted an extraterritorial corridor from Germany to E Prussia, wide enough for a motorway, four lane, and a double railway.

    That was all he wanted.

    You can read there a Polish response to German demands and then tell me whether those response was unreasonable and hostile.

    http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/bb/bb-042.html

    And, BTW, before complaining about discrimination of Germans in Poland (which is true to some extent) you should also read something about discrimination of Poles in Germany (which somehow never comes in a discussion)

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  107. snag says:
    @EliteCommInc.
    I musty have had some great history instructors and read some fi8nme texts, becauyse when i here the term

    "Polish Concentration Camps"

    I immediately understood that it was not a Polish endeavour, whatever the machinations between Polish Catholics, atheists, Baptists . . . etc and Polish Jews.

    I had always taken the reality as a given. The same would apply to Czechoslovakian Concentration Camps, during WWII were a German invention and application.

    I never knew there was much in the way of not "metoo" on the matter.

    I beg your pardon but there’s no such a thing like ‘Polish Jews’ and never was. no one invited them there they’re Jewish invaders and squatters that never assimilated. Prior to WWII 3/4 of them couldn’t communicate in Polish, 9/10 in writing. They didn’t serve, didn’t obey Polish law or pay taxes, they were nothing but drag on the rest of society.

    On the top of that they never failed to stab in the back native Poles every time there was an aggressor at the border. That was the case during partition of Poland and during the German an Russian occupation in 1939. Born to stab, scam, snitch … for profit.

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    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Laughing.



    Well,

    you'll have to take that up with Poland. Apparently, the Poland recognizes that their citizens are comprised on christians, atheist, muslims, doaists and jews. In other words, if Poland does not limit being polish to any particular faith -- I am not in a position to challenge them . And if I were in said position --

    I wouldn't.
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  108. iffen says:
    @szopen
    To be honest I am not sure if any, no matter how reasonable, demand put by Hitler would be fulfilled by Poland. The historical context matters and in 1939 Polish government had no trust in Hitler's words.

    Part of that could be because of cult of personality surrounding Pilsudski who supposedly warned that Germany will inevitably attack Poland and the first signal will be demands with regards to Danzig (whether Pilsudski really thought that war with Germany will happened at latest in 1940 is debatable; it could be that his epigones simply wanted to perpetuate the vision of Pilsudski as great visionary and political genius). Part of that was internal politics and internal strifes, with government (rightfull or wrong) being affraid that if it would fulfill German demands, it would be overthrown.

    The key fact is, however, that Hitler's demands were not reasonable.

    Is there a definitive account of Pilsudski?

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    • Replies: @szopen
    "definitive"? I do not think so. I am no historian, mind you; but I have read both many popular histories and historical monographies of the period and I have an impression, that there are many people trying to portrait him as some kind of impeccable hero, while many others try to portrait him as a brute who just got lucky.
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  109. j2 says:
    @Michael Kenny
    As always, the article is just a pretext to launch yet another hysterical American attack on the EU. I would guess that the shadowy author, who seems to exist only on an anti-Muslim hate site called Gates of Vienna, is seeking to use this issue to drive a wedge between Poland and the EU which, even if anybody in Poland actually reads the article, is unlikely to succeed inasmuch as Poland’s only alternative to the EU is Putin’s tanks.
    The crazy thing about the “crisis”, though, is that there isn’t a crisis! As the author points out, there is no “Polish bill to outlaw talk of Poles’ complicity in the Nazis’ crimes”. According to the BBC’s translation, the bill provides that "whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes committed by the Third German Reich … shall be subject to a fine or a penalty of imprisonment of up to three years". The Polish nation and the Polish State, not individual Poles or private Polish groups, and even then, only if it’s “against the facts”. During the period in question, the entire territory of the Polish Republic was under German or Soviet occupation, so it’s hard to see how the Polish State could have any responsibility for the death camps on its territory. There wasn’t even a local “quisling” Polish government. As for the Polish nation, that is to say, the Polish people in its entirety, as an ethnic group, it’s hard to see, without even a quisling government claiming to act on their behalf and which, it might be alleged, most of them supported, how they could be held responsible for anything the Germans did while in their country. The individual responsibility of any individual Pole for conduct under the occupation is untouched and unchallenged. At first glance, therefore, the bill appears to be absurd and unnecessary.
    My best guess is that’s what’s behind it is the question of property rights: foreign, mainly American or Israeli, Jews claiming entitlement to property on the basis that an ancestor of theirs was improperly deprived of it during the German occupation. In other words, not just a doctrine of “collective guilt” but a sort of “hereditary collective guilt”. The communist regime seized all property and after the fall of the dictatorship, houses, apartments, business premises etc. were sold off, often to the people who actually occupied them. What people fear is that someone will now come along and claim the property that they thought they had bought and paid for, forcing the Polish government to buy them off or see its own citizens evicted from the property. To what extent that has, or is actually happening, I don’t know.

    I may be wrong, but I think is is something like this. Blocks of flats were never nationalized and houses in city centers very often belonged to Jews. After Communism, Poland has given blocks of flats to the descendants of the owners who died or disappeared in the war. There is a condition that the new owner must live in Poland, thus American Jews cannot claim this property yet. Factories, houses of owners of factories, and such were nationalized, but not blocks of flats, houses and so on. The blocks were in poor condition after Communism. People living in flats could purchase them soon after Commune. I do not know if restoring the ownership of the block changes the state of purchased flats, probably not. Those who did not purchase the flats at that time? I do not know what with them.

    The holocaust law problem is artificial and the real reason is somewhere else. The new Polish law does not limit freedom of speech. Holocaust denial laws limit research of history. Fifty years ago there was an episode when Jews were thought to have taken over that country, another ZOG, but they were ousted. It is called a period of anti-Semitism. Maybe it explains Jewish attitudes towards Poland. A country got off the loop, not good. But I think you maybe correct, it may be an economic issue, yet another attempt to benefit on holocaust, but maybe the time for that story is running out.

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  110. Wally says:
    @szopen
    Hmmm so, according to you, why before the war Poland had 3 million Jewish citizens, and after war 100.000?

    recited:
    “Hmmm so, according to you, why before the war Poland had 3 million Jewish citizens, and after war 100.000?”

    Who said that? Not me.

    It is you who says they went to enormous & known mass graves. So why can’t you show us the alleged huge Jew remains?

    Tell us how the alleged, laughable, but impossible ‘gas chambers’ worked.

    You predictably dodged these questions:

    - If some are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like “what happened to them then?

    After all, Jews say ’6M Jews & 5M others’ went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind.

    - If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$”?

    - If the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?

    Must reads here:
    Holocaust Handbooks, Documentaries, & Videos: http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1
    Probing the Holocaust, pt. 1 https://codoh.com/library/document/4056/?lang=en
    and:
    Chemistry of Auschwitz / Birkenau

    http://www.codoh.com

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Since in previous discussions of Holocaust deniers I have already provided links to articles discussing the locations of few mass graves, and the predictable reaction was ignoring them, why I should waste my time on you? I only asked one question, just how do you explain that so many Jews dissapeared. I already know that your kind dismisses relations from Polish government, Polish witnesses and so on.

    So I won't discuss any of this. I repeat, I just want to know: what do you think happened to those three millions of Polish Jews?
    , @polskijoe
    [quote]- If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$”?\ [/quote]

    primitive question.

    because people find ways to escape, because people helped Jews, because many survived in camps and were released after the war.

    once the Nazi mass murderers getting destroyed by Slavics, they didnt have time finish their job.

    [quote]After all, Jews say ’6M Jews & 5M others’ went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind. [/quote]

    who cares what "Jews claim" (I doubt most of them claim that).

    3 million Poles were slaughtered
    4 million Ukrainians
    2 million Belarussians
    Even more Russians.

    Heck all credible estimates like at least 6 milion in Poland died, and 23-27 million in SU.


    You might convince 80-90 iqs of your bs. But it doesnt work on most normal people.

    Nazis at least had some intellgiene (though evil),
    while neonazis have double digit iqs.
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  111. Tyrion 2 says:
    @iffen
    You shouldn't try to dox people, Tyrion 2.

    And, there is something about your comments that give some anti-anti-Semites a second thoughts.

    I’m not doxing him. It is more than public information. I am merely connecting the dots. His postings here can’t possibly lower this self-admitted American Nazi in the public’s esteem. Nothing is below 0 Kelvin. Can’t he get over himself enough to realise the entirely pointless harm this senile old fool is doing? What a tit…

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  112. Wally says:
    @snag
    Oh please, my father's fishing partner and close friend was there for four and a half years and survived. He told us that Russian POW's were ones that were most mistreated and murdered by starvation and frozen to death during the winter time. He also said that there were no Jews in Auschwitz. Birkenau was for Jews, he was sent there few times with some delivery of food and tobacco to SS and didn't see or hear about gas chambers. For Russian prisoners of war it was a death camp.

    Indeed, the impossible ‘gas chambers’ are pure fiction.

    said:
    “For Russian prisoners of war it was a death camp.”

    No it wasn’t, you have no proof. Regardless of the “fishing partner’s” tall tale.
    Again, another “survivor” of an alleged “death camp”. Hardly credible.
    A lot of people say things / lie, just research witchcraft.

    Thanks.

    http://www.codoh.com

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    • Replies: @snag
    Go to any bar in any city in Russia and tell that to any 50yo and older guest there and call me ,...
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  113. @snag
    Somebody who cites Jan Gross or Anne Applebaum it's someone with an agenda to whitewash Jewish atrocities. Somebody who writes the book like 'Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner of that atrocity is nothing but hasbara goon and zio-crap peddler.

    Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Kaganovich, Yagoda (Jews) responsible for Holodomor a genocide of 8 - 10 million starved to death Ukrainian farmland owners during one winter 1932/33*, a whole segment of society because for who they were which according to their formula constitutes holocaust not to mention ethnic cleansing of Crimean Tatars, again, by Kaganowich and his hand picked goons murdering half of the population on the spot with the remaining shipped to Gulags and other God forsaken places in Siberia designated to die and re-populating Crimea with Jewish settlers.

    *Compare it with the efficiency and costs German concentration camps.

    Somebody who writes 'Gulag: A History' and forgets to mention who's idea was it who was the engineer and executioner is a liar with an agenda.

    Gulags - A forced labor camp system in reality a death camp system was more horrible than Auschwitz run by Matvei Berman and Naftaly Frenkel (founders) their buddies Lev Inzhir a commissar of the Gulag transit and administration, Firin, Rappoport, Kogan, Zhuk, were the commissars of camps and slave labor that supervised the construction of the Belomorsk Canal and other projects responsible for at least 30 million worked/starved to death "enemies" of the revolution. The gulag system pre-dates over 2 decades the death camps build by nazis.

    Somebody who writes that you can accommodate and incinerate 1600 people in small barn is insulting our intelligence not to mention that he's making up the participation of Poles in that event. Grosse's version of that account is a product of sick bastard who's parents were saved by some Polish sucker who risked his, his family and often his neighbors life allowing them to produce human maggot like him. Gross is a sociologist not historian as he claims.

    By the way, Auschwitz was chosen because of it's logistic location (middle of concentration of jewish population) and proximity of major railway junction.

    Please (re)read the quote from Applebaum.

    Whatever jewish crimes there may have been, there is little doubt that what Gross describes is true.

    It is the same with Lithuania, how bad the economic exploitation of Lithuanians may have been, does that alter the fact of the large scale executions by Lithuanianss of jews ?
    Do you think the pictures a beating jews to death in
    Christopher R. Browning, ‘Ordinary Men, Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland’, 1992, 2001, London
    are fake ?
    This is, of course possible, but the beating fits in what happened in Lithuania, and the fact that even a few years after 2000 Lithuanians refused to talk about what happened to their jews.

    And it fits what was said in the Lithuanian parliament about the restauration of the ghetto.
    A remarkably small area, I saw it, with as peculiar feature some floors about a metre below street level.
    I suppose there was a maximum height for religious buildings, so in order to create more height inside the floor was sunk.

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    • Replies: @snag
    Listen, even if there were excesses in eastern Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, Latvia they took place after years of Soviet brutal occupation and in case of Poland after Soviets left running from Germans IT WAS A PAYBACK for Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupant. They welcomed invading Red Army with flowers and lists of potential resistance leaders, later they provided lists with the names deportees to Siberia where hundreds of thousands Poles periched in gulags. They did the same thing welcoming Germans ,...

    You have to remember that WWII started in September '39, Wannsee Conference and persecution of Jews only after Wannsee Conference in early '42 First transports of Jews to Birkenau started in the middle of '42, before that they were treated better in occupied Poland than Poles.

    Auschwitz was build for Poles and according to my father's friend the only Jews in Auschwitz were the Jewish criminals and mostly as kapos not prisoners.

    , @snag
    That 1600 turned to 300 according to researchers and the place (Jedwabne in Grosses' book) is the only mass murder place in Europe where some rebbe decided to intervene and stop excavation after they discover German made ammunition where they died.

    Gross's story is digestible for western ignorants not for the folks that have some co-existence experience with Jews. Practically there's no nation in Europe that didn't suffer because of their evil ideas and conduct ... not one. Take good look in the mirror and do some soul searching before you point your finger at anyone.
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  114. @polskijoe

    The holocaust involved more than the jews, there were many other races and religions that were sent to death in the camps,
     
    Agreed. Actually the Jews were a minority of those killed.

    , and all of these are small in comparison the what the communist jews in Russia did to the Russian people, an estimated 50 to 60 million were killed from 1917 to 1953.
     
    Completely disagree. Those figures outdated and disproven. Most of those estimates were made before known files were realeased. Some of those estimates were made decades ago.

    Victims killed by Stalin included Russians but also large amounts of nonRussians.

    It wouldn’t surprise me that Stalin’s death tolls are exaggerated, but by comparison Hitler’s are pure fabrication.

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  115. @jacques sheete

    I know you’re thinking I’m just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It’d be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.
     

    I wasn't thinking that at all, but I've long felt it odd that "Jews," who we all know are far above average in intelligence, knowledge, and special in their G-d's eye, should support, with complete lack of self awareness, the abominable terrorist State of Israel.

    What explains your inability to comprehend how toxic your views and actions are and how much harm the Zionist project is continuing to do to Jews in general?

    I'm especially amazed that such "gifted" folks should continue down those self destructive paths even though they were warned about the results by Jews with real brains.


    …It’s hard to imagine now, but in 1944, six years after Kristallnacht, Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, felt comfortable equating the Zionist ideal of Jewish statehood with “the concept of a racial state — the Hitlerian concept.” For most of the last century, a principled opposition to Zionism was a mainstream stance within American Judaism.
    Even after the foundation of Israel, anti-Zionism was not a particularly heretical position.

    -Ben Ehrenreich, Zionism is the problem
    http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15-story.html
     

    Jews who know their own history should be aware that such a state of affairs will inevitably lead to a new wave of Jew-hatred; the antisemitism of tomorrow will assert that Jews not only profiteered from the presence of foreign big powers in that region but had actually plotted it and hence are guilty of the consequences…

    -Hannah Arendt, Zionism Reconsidered, Jewish Writings p 345
    https://preview.tinyurl.com/yapfnfa5

     

    This stuff is so obvious that a dumb goy like myself can appreciate it, so why can't the bright ones, or don't they care? Or what?

    It seems pretty obvious that the Zionist State of Israel is the worst anti-Semitic and anti-Jew entity that ever existed. They've made a mockery of all that Jews claim to stand for, and to add insult to injury, the schmucks are mostly non-Semite, but Eastern European rejects!

    It is quite possible that the murder of the German diplomat in Paris was planned as a provocation.
    If it was, Goebbels took the bait
    The Kristallnacht was splendid propaganda against Hitler Germany.
    René d’Argile, etc., Das Geheimnis um die Ursachen des Zweiten Weltkrieges, Wiesbaden 1958 ( Les Origines Secrêtes de la Guerre 1939 – 1945, Paris 1958).

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  116. szopen says:
    @iffen
    Is there a definitive account of Pilsudski?

    “definitive”? I do not think so. I am no historian, mind you; but I have read both many popular histories and historical monographies of the period and I have an impression, that there are many people trying to portrait him as some kind of impeccable hero, while many others try to portrait him as a brute who just got lucky.

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  117. szopen says:
    @Wally
    recited:
    "Hmmm so, according to you, why before the war Poland had 3 million Jewish citizens, and after war 100.000?"

    Who said that? Not me.

    It is you who says they went to enormous & known mass graves. So why can't you show us the alleged huge Jew remains?

    Tell us how the alleged, laughable, but impossible 'gas chambers' worked.

    You predictably dodged these questions:

    - If some are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like "what happened to them then?

    After all, Jews say '6M Jews & 5M others' went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind.

    - If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$"?

    - If the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?

    Must reads here:
    Holocaust Handbooks, Documentaries, & Videos: http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1
    Probing the Holocaust, pt. 1 https://codoh.com/library/document/4056/?lang=en
    and:
    Chemistry of Auschwitz / Birkenau
    https://youtu.be/SUc6Y_E5zb0

    www.codoh.com

    Since in previous discussions of Holocaust deniers I have already provided links to articles discussing the locations of few mass graves, and the predictable reaction was ignoring them, why I should waste my time on you? I only asked one question, just how do you explain that so many Jews dissapeared. I already know that your kind dismisses relations from Polish government, Polish witnesses and so on.

    So I won’t discuss any of this. I repeat, I just want to know: what do you think happened to those three millions of Polish Jews?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    None of those mass graves hold anything like the millions claimed.
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  118. Tyrion 2 says:
    @jacques sheete

    I know you’re thinking I’m just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It’d be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.
     

    I wasn't thinking that at all, but I've long felt it odd that "Jews," who we all know are far above average in intelligence, knowledge, and special in their G-d's eye, should support, with complete lack of self awareness, the abominable terrorist State of Israel.

    What explains your inability to comprehend how toxic your views and actions are and how much harm the Zionist project is continuing to do to Jews in general?

    I'm especially amazed that such "gifted" folks should continue down those self destructive paths even though they were warned about the results by Jews with real brains.


    …It’s hard to imagine now, but in 1944, six years after Kristallnacht, Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, felt comfortable equating the Zionist ideal of Jewish statehood with “the concept of a racial state — the Hitlerian concept.” For most of the last century, a principled opposition to Zionism was a mainstream stance within American Judaism.
    Even after the foundation of Israel, anti-Zionism was not a particularly heretical position.

    -Ben Ehrenreich, Zionism is the problem
    http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15-story.html
     

    Jews who know their own history should be aware that such a state of affairs will inevitably lead to a new wave of Jew-hatred; the antisemitism of tomorrow will assert that Jews not only profiteered from the presence of foreign big powers in that region but had actually plotted it and hence are guilty of the consequences…

    -Hannah Arendt, Zionism Reconsidered, Jewish Writings p 345
    https://preview.tinyurl.com/yapfnfa5

     

    This stuff is so obvious that a dumb goy like myself can appreciate it, so why can't the bright ones, or don't they care? Or what?

    It seems pretty obvious that the Zionist State of Israel is the worst anti-Semitic and anti-Jew entity that ever existed. They've made a mockery of all that Jews claim to stand for, and to add insult to injury, the schmucks are mostly non-Semite, but Eastern European rejects!

    Jews get blamed for not having a state pre-1945. Jews get blamed for having a state post-1948. Maybe there really is something to this chosen people/tears of history sort of interpretation.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Jews get blamed for not having a state pre-1945. Jews get blamed for having a state post-1948.
     
    Oh, c'mon, Tyrion! This is an unfair fight; a dumb goy vs a very intelligent and knowledgeable "Jew," but please, I'm not exactly that dense and neither are you.

    I never heard that Jews get blamed for not having a state, so details, please.

    Jews do not get blamed for having a state post 1948. They already had states and as you know, many Jews considered themselves Germans pre-1948 and post as well. Besides, the USA was home to many Jews. New York City has long been their de facto state.

    You and I, dumb goy that I am, know that the State of Israel is not despised because it's a Jewish state, (I believe it's a Zionist, not a Jewish one, btw, but that's another story), but it's despised for the terrorist methods used to gain the land, the ongoing oppression and sadistic, unnecessary violence waged against Palestinians, and the fact that Israel and Izzy sympathizers have a death grip on the media, on schooling, on our foreign and domestic policies, and on our government to say nothing of the dollars wrung out of the most bankrupt nation on Earth.

    I happen to be a very sensitive individual, so I react badly to attempted bullshitting... :)

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  119. @szopen
    Since in previous discussions of Holocaust deniers I have already provided links to articles discussing the locations of few mass graves, and the predictable reaction was ignoring them, why I should waste my time on you? I only asked one question, just how do you explain that so many Jews dissapeared. I already know that your kind dismisses relations from Polish government, Polish witnesses and so on.

    So I won't discuss any of this. I repeat, I just want to know: what do you think happened to those three millions of Polish Jews?

    None of those mass graves hold anything like the millions claimed.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Sure, I've heard that already. "There are no mass graves!" SObibór mass graves discovered? "No, they are not mass graves, because there were no human remains there". But there are fragments of human bones found there? "No, they aren't, and besides, no way they could fit burned remains of 120-250k people in those seven graves". What about graves recently discovered in Treblinka? They are too small. And that's pretty much the discussion about any mass grave and any evidence.

    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/
    , @Jonathan Revusky

    None of those mass graves hold anything like the millions claimed.
     
    It is my understanding that current-day forensic science is so fine-tuned that, if you had even the smallest bit of human remains of somebody who was killed by Zyklon B gassing, the cause of death would be verifiable, even now, decades later. Millions of people were allegedly murdered with this poison gas and I have never heard of any fragment of a bone or tooth or lock of hair of any gassing victim ever being presented.

    Also, as far as I know, while there are various people who claim to have witnessed these mass gassings, none of these people have ever described a realistic protocol for gassing a large number of people to death and then removing the bodies and then disposing of them -- by that, I mean, a procedure that is even remotely feasible technically. I am pretty certain that any aggressive cross-examination of these eyewitnesses would reveal them to be liars. (Or "would have", since it is no longer possible, since they are all dead by now. Or at least I assume they are...)

    So, my current view is that any objective critical thinker, based on these sorts of basic facts, would realize that the gas chamber part of the story is simply untrue. It simply cannot withstand any critical analysis. The only reason to believe it is if one has a strong emotional need to believe the story. Hence the need to establish this as something akin to a religion.

    All that said, I have to admit that I believed the gas chamber story for most of my life, since I never subjected it to any critical analysis and had always ignored the revisionist literature. I trusted the mainstream portrayal of these people as just cranks. Once I decided to read some of the revisionist literature with an open mind, I quickly realized that they were basically telling the truth.

    So it is only recently that I have come to understand just how absurd most of the canonical Holocaust narrative really is. This was quite disturbing, but it was also liberating, because I came to realize how mentally oppressive all this Holocaustianity sacred narrative really is. But, more importantly, along with some other things (like JFK and 9/11...) it provided a very basic lesson. It's about understanding the difference between storytelling and real, established facts, which is what critical thinking is really about.
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  120. snag says:
    @jilles dykstra
    " Auschwitz was chosen because of it’s logistic location "

    You deny the production of synthetic rubber, high octane aviation fuel, and oil there from abundant coal and water ?
    What do you think the allies began bombing from the end of 1944 on, from Italy ?
    Why do you think in early 1945 hundreds of Me jet fighters could not fly ?
    Even Ben Gurion understood that the Auschwitz camps were camps for workers, as also Elie Wiesel describes in
    Elie Wiesel, 'La Nuit', 1958, 2007
    Wiesel worked in a large storage facility for electric parts.

    Spare me your ‘sources’, please* – So what that there was coal and if it was what good would it do without rail system and the means to deliver it to its destination. Try to use some logic in your statements – When Auschwitz (1940) was build Birkenau (1942) the Germans were winning everywhere they went and didn’t have any fuel supply problems.

    *Wiesel and his daughter became multi millionaires by whining and pointing a finger. There’re too many inconsistencies in his war time days to take him seriously.

    “The most strange thing about “Elie Wiesel” is that he speaks English with a Serbian accent and cannot speak Hungarian. The real Wiesel was supposed to have come from a Hungarian speaking part of Romania. On the internet there is an entry card for “Elie Wiesel” from the Yugoslavian embassy in Paris, for when he entered France from Yugoslavia in 1954. While it shows his photo, it does not show his real name, which must be something Serbian. It is unlikely he is a Jew as he looks much more like a Serb. It seems the reason he came to France was to pose as Elie Wiesel when the French author Mauriac wrote Elie Wiesel’s “Night”, adapted from the real Wiesel’s Yiddish book “un di welt hot geschwigen”.

    Here’s another one.

    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n1p15_okeefe.html

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    In any case Germany did not have rubber.
    As to oil, not for nothing in the Russian campaign the Russian oil fields were an objective.
    Even one of the two 'standard' holocaust studies admits, the mentioned one just on page 300 or so, that Auschwitz was a big industrial centre.
    Elie Wiesel worked in a big storage facility for electrical parts, as he himself writes.

    Raul Hilberg, ‘The destruction of the European Jews’, student edition, Teaneck, 1985
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  121. You are wasting your time in discussions with these people, but for your own curiosity, this memoir provides a part of the answer: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Brigade-Janowska-Road/dp/0896040003.

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  122. @Max Denken
    @polskijoe
    It's useless to argue with religious fanatics, and so you'll not succeed in convincing @desert fox or the Hitler-was-cool crazies trolling here. You can no more teach them the facts as to exactly who murdered the 30-40 million Russians as you can about the Holodomor.

    "The Jews" murdered millions of Ukrainians, they'll continue proclaiming to their dying day, even though already in 2010, a high court in Kiev -- and that's perhaps the least philosemitic city in Europe -- decreed that the blame for the Holodomor rests with one Georgian, two Russians, two Jews, one Pole and one Ukrainian. http://memorialholodomor.org.ua/eng/holodomor/genocide/court-order.

    Likewise, if you mention that Stalin, Lenin, Beria, Yezhov, Blokhin, Dherzhinsky etc. etc. were not Jews, they'll pull out something written by a similarly deranged mind, arguing that they were.
    It's useless. I just wish they stopped trolling here and went to their IHR, Faurisson, Duke & Co. -- a friendly environment for them that I would not be as uncivil as invading.

    It’s useless to argue with religious fanatics…

    Does that include fake monotheists, rabid JINOs, deranged rabbis, and “ethno”-fanatics such as the Izzy first crowd?

    How do we deal with the likes of this creature and its supporters?

    “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel.”
    Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat.”According to Yosef, death has “no dominion” over non-Jews in Israel.
    “Hate the Gentile!” Israel’s Racist Rabbis, by JONATHAN COOK

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/12/10/israel-s-racist-rabbis/

    What about one of the chief agitators for war, “rabbi” Stephen Wise, an intimate of FDR, the Red? What are we to think?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Max Denken
    As you could infer from the essay above, I am hardly an apologist for the Jewish view of the world. And I can quote the items you mentioned, and raise you some. Yet you cannot trace these people with your brush and than pass that brush over the entire Jewish people, throughout their entire history at that. Also, no critique of Jews, even the harshest, excuses pitiful attempts to rewrite history, to make Hitler into the good guy and the Third Reich into an innocent victim of Jewish perfidy. That is even more insane than the rabbis' quotes.

    History is complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, in the JQ area too.
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  123. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @jacques sheete

    I know you’re thinking I’m just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It’d be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.
     

    I wasn't thinking that at all, but I've long felt it odd that "Jews," who we all know are far above average in intelligence, knowledge, and special in their G-d's eye, should support, with complete lack of self awareness, the abominable terrorist State of Israel.

    What explains your inability to comprehend how toxic your views and actions are and how much harm the Zionist project is continuing to do to Jews in general?

    I'm especially amazed that such "gifted" folks should continue down those self destructive paths even though they were warned about the results by Jews with real brains.


    …It’s hard to imagine now, but in 1944, six years after Kristallnacht, Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, felt comfortable equating the Zionist ideal of Jewish statehood with “the concept of a racial state — the Hitlerian concept.” For most of the last century, a principled opposition to Zionism was a mainstream stance within American Judaism.
    Even after the foundation of Israel, anti-Zionism was not a particularly heretical position.

    -Ben Ehrenreich, Zionism is the problem
    http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15-story.html
     

    Jews who know their own history should be aware that such a state of affairs will inevitably lead to a new wave of Jew-hatred; the antisemitism of tomorrow will assert that Jews not only profiteered from the presence of foreign big powers in that region but had actually plotted it and hence are guilty of the consequences…

    -Hannah Arendt, Zionism Reconsidered, Jewish Writings p 345
    https://preview.tinyurl.com/yapfnfa5

     

    This stuff is so obvious that a dumb goy like myself can appreciate it, so why can't the bright ones, or don't they care? Or what?

    It seems pretty obvious that the Zionist State of Israel is the worst anti-Semitic and anti-Jew entity that ever existed. They've made a mockery of all that Jews claim to stand for, and to add insult to injury, the schmucks are mostly non-Semite, but Eastern European rejects!

    This stuff is so obvious that a dumb goy like myself

    It’s obvious to Zionist Jews like Tyrion 2 too, but they’re the chosen ones, so in their view there’s no moral equivalence between what they do and what the cattle do.

    Read More
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  124. @jilles dykstra
    The truth is consistent, what Bella Fromm describes as anti jewish measures is corrobated by many other books.
    Such as
    Helmut Krausnick : Judenverfolgung, 1965, 1967, München
    Victor Klemperer, ‘I will bear witness, A diary of the Nazi years, 1942-1945’, New York 1999
    Saul Friedländer, ‘Nazi Germany & the Jews, The Years of Persecution 1933-39’, London, 1997

    Why do you think many jews fled to France or the Netherlands ?
    For fun ?
    The Netherlands had so many asjenazi jews as refugees that the assimilated Dutch sephardic jews became antisemites:
    Regina Grüters, ‘Een fantast schrijft geschiedenis, De affaires rond FRIEDRICH WEINBERG’, Netherlands, 1997

    Weinberg was an asjkenazi rabbi, fled from Germany.
    He became notorious after the war, he was condemned to a prison sentence after the war for collaboration with the Germans, letting himself paid by jews to prevent deportation, he influenced nothing, and spying in jail on fellow prisoners for the Germans.
    Dutch jewry saw him as a hero, he resisted the Germans.
    The controversy went on in Dutch journals into the eighties.

    Why do you think many jews fled to France or the Netherlands ?
    For fun ?

    Fun possibly; drama, likely.

    I think because some were Marxists and the heat was on. Plus many were undoubtedly scared out of their wits by the Zionists who used terror as an “incentive” to motivate emigration to Palestine. Others probably just didn’t want to be around when the war started, especially since it was inevitable that the Soviets would come. Is it not true that many people, Jews included fled to the Germans at the approach of the Soviet barbarians? Some, like your Glamour Girl tabloidist, thought there would be greener pastures in the USA or France or whereever; it was a common idea among many folks.

    No doubt there were other reasons.

    The truth is consistent, what Bella Fromm describes as anti jewish measures is corrobated by many other books.

    Why did she hob nob with the Nazis for 5 years before she decided to exit? She seems to have had quite the time cavorting with Nazis for a while. What changed?

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    You do not seem to realise that I'm an old Dutchman, born in WWII.
    The anti jewish measures in Germany were duplicated in the Netherlands after the German occupation began.
    I of course did not personally witness those measures, but there is abundant literature, consistent with what my parents and other relatives told me, based on their experience.
    Last month, Februari, our Februari 1941, strike against the persecution of the jews, was officially remembered.
    Not for nothing a jewish colleague of my father, also a college professor, committed suicide with his whole family shortly after the German occupation had begun.
    Not for nothing my father left his job, and my parents their house, my mother with me, to go underground, after my father was ordered to march with his students to the German Kulturkammer.

    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Februaristaking

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  125. szopen says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    None of those mass graves hold anything like the millions claimed.

    Sure, I’ve heard that already. “There are no mass graves!” SObibór mass graves discovered? “No, they are not mass graves, because there were no human remains there”. But there are fragments of human bones found there? “No, they aren’t, and besides, no way they could fit burned remains of 120-250k people in those seven graves”. What about graves recently discovered in Treblinka? They are too small. And that’s pretty much the discussion about any mass grave and any evidence.

    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    What "mass graves recently discovered at Treblinka" /Sobibor?
    Show us what was found.

    In fact, I''ll spare you the trouble. Everyone observe and learn.
    remember:
    - claimed '900,000 Jews buried at Treblinka'
    - claimed '250,000 Jews buried at Sobibor'

    Alleged mass grave for 900,000 at Treblinka:
    http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/2/Treblinka.jpg

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/02/08/2DE8CADB00000578-3295228-Mass_graves_Museum_staff_at_Sobib_r_Nazi_death_camp_in_Poland_fo-a-5_1446453391739.jpg
    Only these 6 skeletons from an admitted transit site that once move hundreds of thousands of people through, although Jews claim that 250,000 Jews are buried at this site, Sobibor.

    Of those measly few we have no idea:
    1. that they are Jews
    2. that they were actually murdered by the Germans and did not die of natural causes
    3. that they can be dated to the WWII era
    No lab analysis was permitted.

    http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2014/12/Sobibor2.jpg
    These stones said to be remains of 250,000 jews
    No lab analysis was permitted.

    That's what they found. This is The Big Lie aka: the 'holocau$t'

    much more info.:
    https://codoh.com/search/?sorting=relevance&q=treblinka+sturdy
    and:
    https://codoh.com/search/?sorting=relevance&q=haimi+sobibor

    www.codoh.com

    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    You’ve heard much, but apparently learned very little.
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  126. Z-man says:
    @jacques sheete

    I know you’re thinking I’m just a (((Jew))) but I am also talking sense. What on earth does that lunatic hope to achieve?

    His politics are obviously anathema to me but mine would be a huge improvement for him on the current year. It’d be good if he had the self-awareness to realise just quite how toxic his views actually are and how much harm he is doing.
     

    I wasn't thinking that at all, but I've long felt it odd that "Jews," who we all know are far above average in intelligence, knowledge, and special in their G-d's eye, should support, with complete lack of self awareness, the abominable terrorist State of Israel.

    What explains your inability to comprehend how toxic your views and actions are and how much harm the Zionist project is continuing to do to Jews in general?

    I'm especially amazed that such "gifted" folks should continue down those self destructive paths even though they were warned about the results by Jews with real brains.


    …It’s hard to imagine now, but in 1944, six years after Kristallnacht, Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, felt comfortable equating the Zionist ideal of Jewish statehood with “the concept of a racial state — the Hitlerian concept.” For most of the last century, a principled opposition to Zionism was a mainstream stance within American Judaism.
    Even after the foundation of Israel, anti-Zionism was not a particularly heretical position.

    -Ben Ehrenreich, Zionism is the problem
    http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15-story.html
     

    Jews who know their own history should be aware that such a state of affairs will inevitably lead to a new wave of Jew-hatred; the antisemitism of tomorrow will assert that Jews not only profiteered from the presence of foreign big powers in that region but had actually plotted it and hence are guilty of the consequences…

    -Hannah Arendt, Zionism Reconsidered, Jewish Writings p 345
    https://preview.tinyurl.com/yapfnfa5

     

    This stuff is so obvious that a dumb goy like myself can appreciate it, so why can't the bright ones, or don't they care? Or what?

    It seems pretty obvious that the Zionist State of Israel is the worst anti-Semitic and anti-Jew entity that ever existed. They've made a mockery of all that Jews claim to stand for, and to add insult to injury, the schmucks are mostly non-Semite, but Eastern European rejects!

    It seems pretty obvious that the Zionist State of Israel is the worst anti-Semitic and anti-Jew entity that ever existed. They’ve made a mockery of all that Jews claim to stand for, and to add insult to injury, the schmucks are mostly non-Semite, but Eastern European rejects!

    Well said.

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  127. snag says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Please (re)read the quote from Applebaum.

    Whatever jewish crimes there may have been, there is little doubt that what Gross describes is true.

    It is the same with Lithuania, how bad the economic exploitation of Lithuanians may have been, does that alter the fact of the large scale executions by Lithuanianss of jews ?
    Do you think the pictures a beating jews to death in
    Christopher R. Browning, ‘Ordinary Men, Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland’, 1992, 2001, London
    are fake ?
    This is, of course possible, but the beating fits in what happened in Lithuania, and the fact that even a few years after 2000 Lithuanians refused to talk about what happened to their jews.

    And it fits what was said in the Lithuanian parliament about the restauration of the ghetto.
    A remarkably small area, I saw it, with as peculiar feature some floors about a metre below street level.
    I suppose there was a maximum height for religious buildings, so in order to create more height inside the floor was sunk.

    Listen, even if there were excesses in eastern Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, Latvia they took place after years of Soviet brutal occupation and in case of Poland after Soviets left running from Germans IT WAS A PAYBACK for Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupant. They welcomed invading Red Army with flowers and lists of potential resistance leaders, later they provided lists with the names deportees to Siberia where hundreds of thousands Poles periched in gulags. They did the same thing welcoming Germans ,…

    You have to remember that WWII started in September ’39, Wannsee Conference and persecution of Jews only after Wannsee Conference in early ’42 First transports of Jews to Birkenau started in the middle of ’42, before that they were treated better in occupied Poland than Poles.

    Auschwitz was build for Poles and according to my father’s friend the only Jews in Auschwitz were the Jewish criminals and mostly as kapos not prisoners.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    You're just making stuff up as you go. Empty bar talk.

    Here's the facts about the "Wannsee Conference":

    The Wannsee Conference Protocol, Anatomy of a Fabrication:
    http://codoh.com/library/document/934/

    Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence:
    http://codoh.com/library/document/230/

    Wannsee Conference minutes debunked:
    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1647

    www.codoh.com

    , @jilles dykstra
    There indeed seems to have been jewish cooperation with the Red Army.
    There also was Russian cooperation with the German army.
    History is never simple.
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  128. A very good, almost encyclopedic article. Just a few rambling thoughts …

    1. Jewish Polonophobia still exists. For various cultural & historical reasons eastern Jews had much more assimilated to German & Russian cultures (especially German). Among Polish Jews some were against Polish independence (Rosa Luxembourg), while others were for (Feliks Perl).

    2. anti-Catholicism. In their relation to versions of Christianity, especially Western, Jews are much more at ease with Protestantism (especially Calvinism), while Catholicism is both too supernatural/alien for them & loaded with real & imagined historical burden (Crusades, Inquisition,..). Because Poland is Catholic, so …

    3. this media hysteria is mostly Israel-US-UK-Germany orchestrated. Having in mind Jewish influence in American media, I think it is a combination of at least two elements: whipping up Jewish victimological narrative into frenzied mania (a good focus for tribal emotional circling the wagons), while more importantly, media warfare against stubborn central & east European countries of Marianist tradition (Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Slovakia) that openly dismiss Western European suicidal policy of mass immigration of Africans & Muslims.

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  129. polskijoe says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Germany, including those who died after WWII, 11 million, about 25%;

    Germany alone lost 8% (no where near 25% percent).

    Including Austria, and Germans outside Germany: losses = 9%

    (in both posts losses I refer to dead and missing).

    Im wondering what BS source you are using? Rense? Liberty Lobby? IHR?

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    British historian Charmley states nine million
    John Charmley, ‘Der Untergang des Britischen Empires, Roosevelt – Churchill und Amerikas Weg zur Weltmacht’, Graz 2005

    I add one million deaths after 1945, civilians in misery, in a destroyed country, with a diet with less calories than the Germans gave to the inmates of the camps.

    I further add one million POW's murdered by hunger and exposure by Eisenhower and De Gaulle

    James Bacque, ´Der geplante Tod, Deutsche Kriegsgefangene in amerikanischen und französischen Lagern 1945 – 1946, Frankfurt/M, 1989, 1994 (Other losses, Toronto, 1989

    Charles A. Lindbergh, ´The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh’, New York, 1970
    Lindbergh visited a dying POW in one of the open air camps, a specialist in developing a rocket engine for the V3, meant to reach the USA.

    Paul Bonnecarrère, ´Par le sang versé, La Legion étrangère en Indochine’ , Paris, 1968, 2006
    German POW's could escape dying of hunger in French camps by joining the French Foreign Legion, often then dying in Indochina.

    Heinz Leiwig, ´Deutschland Stunde Null, Historische Luftaufnahmen 1945’, Stuttgart 2005
    Airial pictures of a destroyed country, you can also see the open air prison camps where the POW's perished.
    It is even asserted that nearly dead POW's were bulldozed into death by suffocation.
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  130. Jews?

    I don’t give a shit.

    The Jews are destroyers and their day of reckoning is coming.

    They have targeted the European peoples for destruction and they shall reap what they sow.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    Watch out mate, or Tyrion 2 will call you an anti-Semite, then where will you be? In deep shit, that's where.
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  131. snag says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Please (re)read the quote from Applebaum.

    Whatever jewish crimes there may have been, there is little doubt that what Gross describes is true.

    It is the same with Lithuania, how bad the economic exploitation of Lithuanians may have been, does that alter the fact of the large scale executions by Lithuanianss of jews ?
    Do you think the pictures a beating jews to death in
    Christopher R. Browning, ‘Ordinary Men, Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland’, 1992, 2001, London
    are fake ?
    This is, of course possible, but the beating fits in what happened in Lithuania, and the fact that even a few years after 2000 Lithuanians refused to talk about what happened to their jews.

    And it fits what was said in the Lithuanian parliament about the restauration of the ghetto.
    A remarkably small area, I saw it, with as peculiar feature some floors about a metre below street level.
    I suppose there was a maximum height for religious buildings, so in order to create more height inside the floor was sunk.

    That 1600 turned to 300 according to researchers and the place (Jedwabne in Grosses’ book) is the only mass murder place in Europe where some rebbe decided to intervene and stop excavation after they discover German made ammunition where they died.

    Gross’s story is digestible for western ignorants not for the folks that have some co-existence experience with Jews. Practically there’s no nation in Europe that didn’t suffer because of their evil ideas and conduct … not one. Take good look in the mirror and do some soul searching before you point your finger at anyone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    I know that Gross' book is hotly contested in Poland.
    However, Polish hatred of jews one can also read in other sources, such as Bogdan Musial.
    Even in 1967 Poland made it possible for jews to leave Poland, Gross was one of them.
    In how far the book by Gross is true, I cannot judge.

    That there were anti jewish sentiments all over E Europe, little doubt about it.
    Solsjenytsyn describes and explains them for tsarist Russia.
    On who was morally right, one can debate long.

    A major cause of Russian popular hatred against jews was how they ruthlessly came into possession of land an houses of just liberated serfs, who had no idea about money, drank far to much in inns exploited by jews, then accumulated debt they could not repay.
    Government hatred of jews was caused by their resistance to assimilation, trying to evade taxes, and dodging conscription.

    As jews were literate, revolutionary ideas could be spread an developed, hardly possible with the illiterate Russian peasants.
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  132. Ex-Saffer says:

    Speaking of “righteous Gentiles,” a matter concerning them has been gnawing at me. Have any of the Gentiles who risked their necks for Jews ever been given a share in the reparations that have been extracted from Germany? I am thinking optimistically that some small part of the vast apparatus dedicated to disbursing the money might have shared some of the largesse with the many farmers and factory-owners who hid Jews. Or did these courageous people merely get a pat on the head?

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Or did these courageous people merely get a pat on the head?
     
    Typically useful idiots get tossed under the bus as soon as their usefulness is done. The gullible Izzy-first crew is likely to find that out relatively soon.

    They don't need to look for any sympathy from me.
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  133. @Beefcake the Mighty
    None of those mass graves hold anything like the millions claimed.

    None of those mass graves hold anything like the millions claimed.

    It is my understanding that current-day forensic science is so fine-tuned that, if you had even the smallest bit of human remains of somebody who was killed by Zyklon B gassing, the cause of death would be verifiable, even now, decades later. Millions of people were allegedly murdered with this poison gas and I have never heard of any fragment of a bone or tooth or lock of hair of any gassing victim ever being presented.

    Also, as far as I know, while there are various people who claim to have witnessed these mass gassings, none of these people have ever described a realistic protocol for gassing a large number of people to death and then removing the bodies and then disposing of them — by that, I mean, a procedure that is even remotely feasible technically. I am pretty certain that any aggressive cross-examination of these eyewitnesses would reveal them to be liars. (Or “would have”, since it is no longer possible, since they are all dead by now. Or at least I assume they are…)

    So, my current view is that any objective critical thinker, based on these sorts of basic facts, would realize that the gas chamber part of the story is simply untrue. It simply cannot withstand any critical analysis. The only reason to believe it is if one has a strong emotional need to believe the story. Hence the need to establish this as something akin to a religion.

    All that said, I have to admit that I believed the gas chamber story for most of my life, since I never subjected it to any critical analysis and had always ignored the revisionist literature. I trusted the mainstream portrayal of these people as just cranks. Once I decided to read some of the revisionist literature with an open mind, I quickly realized that they were basically telling the truth.

    So it is only recently that I have come to understand just how absurd most of the canonical Holocaust narrative really is. This was quite disturbing, but it was also liberating, because I came to realize how mentally oppressive all this Holocaustianity sacred narrative really is. But, more importantly, along with some other things (like JFK and 9/11…) it provided a very basic lesson. It’s about understanding the difference between storytelling and real, established facts, which is what critical thinking is really about.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    So it is only recently that I have come to understand just how absurd most of the canonical Holocaust narrative really is.
     
    Take any bit of recent "history," or other canonical narrative, subject it to a similar degree of scrutiny, and you'll find that most of it is pure, highly adulterated, bull droppings. Most of what we've been taught stinks as bad as our politicians and international bankers do.

    Frauds-R-USA.
    , @CanSpeccy

    So it is only recently that I have come to understand just how absurd most of the canonical Holocaust narrative really is.
     
    Millions of Jews surely suffered and many died by the hand of Nazis. But so did millions of other people, about whom we hear much less.

    Jewish insistence on the uniqueness of the crime of the Jewish Holocaust is the natural consequence of Jewish racism and supremacism. It is also a manifestation of Jewish hypocrisy, genocide being a standard tool of Jewish policy, past and present:


    And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. Deuteronomy 2:34

    And we utterly destroyed them, ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. Deuteronomy 3:6

    And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2

    And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. Deuteronomy 7:16

    Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15

    But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17

    And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

    So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
     

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  134. polskijoe says:
    @Max Denken
    @polskijoe
    It's useless to argue with religious fanatics, and so you'll not succeed in convincing @desert fox or the Hitler-was-cool crazies trolling here. You can no more teach them the facts as to exactly who murdered the 30-40 million Russians as you can about the Holodomor.

    "The Jews" murdered millions of Ukrainians, they'll continue proclaiming to their dying day, even though already in 2010, a high court in Kiev -- and that's perhaps the least philosemitic city in Europe -- decreed that the blame for the Holodomor rests with one Georgian, two Russians, two Jews, one Pole and one Ukrainian. http://memorialholodomor.org.ua/eng/holodomor/genocide/court-order.

    Likewise, if you mention that Stalin, Lenin, Beria, Yezhov, Blokhin, Dherzhinsky etc. etc. were not Jews, they'll pull out something written by a similarly deranged mind, arguing that they were.
    It's useless. I just wish they stopped trolling here and went to their IHR, Faurisson, Duke & Co. -- a friendly environment for them that I would not be as uncivil as invading.

    Hitler lovers and pro Nazi revisionists are annoying as hell. They can enjoy their diversity and liberalism. It was their policies which destroyed much of Europe resulting in Liberalism and Zionism winning.

    Ukrainian Nationalists and Nazi larpers like to claim 10-14 million Ukrainians died.

    Yet most expperts have agreed directly 3-5 million Ukrainian starved.. and a couple million more Russians/Khazaks/Caucasians/etc. It was known as Soviet famine. Holodomar refers to Ukrainians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%9333

    (wikipedia is biased and sometimes wrong, but its superior to any Nazi crap).

    Now when some Nazi mass murdering, raping, genociding, evils were busy shooting people for being untermenschen, bombing cities, and sending them to death camps then obviously they are too blame.

    Honestly I have even heard some larpers even claim Kalergi was a Jew, Stalin was a Jew, etc.
    (Kalergi was Japan-Euro hybrid) and Stalin was Georgian (Djugasvili does NOT mean son of a Jew).

    I dislike organized Jewry, but I will never side with Liberty Lobby, revisionist, genocide deniers.

    Germany has been attacking Slavic lands for 1000 years. Teutonic Knights, antiPolish scum
    like Bismarck (also antiCatholic), Hitler (also antiCatholic), Fredrick the “great”, etc.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Hitler lovers and pro Nazi revisionists are annoying as hell.
     
    Hitler lovers make more sense than the Bolshie lovers (e.g., Stalin lovers) and the FDR and Churchill lovers, neither of whom had a dog in the fight.

    There would have been no Nazi movement if there had been no Wall Street financed Bolshie Revolution. Hitler was long on the defensive while the US and Great Britain never were threatened by any stretch of the imagination. So...it's perfectly plain to see that FDR and Churchill were much worse than Hitler, and Stalin had been raising Hell long before Hitler came to power, so who's worse there? I do admire Stalin for exterminating a lot of the old Bolshies and for letting Hitler circumvent parts of the Versailles Treaty by allowing the German military to train in the USSR. Still, Stalin was worse than Hitler by any measure, but better than the two amoral aristocrat dandy criminals, FDR and Churchill.

    So you FDR and Churchill lovers are not only annoying but as criminal as they and their money bag backers were.


    They can enjoy their diversity and liberalism. It was their policies which destroyed much of Europe resulting in Liberalism and Zionism winning.
     
    Nah, he who has the gold has the power. The New Yoik and London international bankers had the gold and were calling the shots. They were the main winners. It was they who destroyed Europe, and stunk up the US in the process, and they're still doing it.
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  135. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Maple Curtain
    Jews?

    I don't give a shit.

    The Jews are destroyers and their day of reckoning is coming.

    They have targeted the European peoples for destruction and they shall reap what they sow.

    Watch out mate, or Tyrion 2 will call you an anti-Semite, then where will you be? In deep shit, that’s where.

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  136. @Tyrion 2
    Jews get blamed for not having a state pre-1945. Jews get blamed for having a state post-1948. Maybe there really is something to this chosen people/tears of history sort of interpretation.

    Jews get blamed for not having a state pre-1945. Jews get blamed for having a state post-1948.

    Oh, c’mon, Tyrion! This is an unfair fight; a dumb goy vs a very intelligent and knowledgeable “Jew,” but please, I’m not exactly that dense and neither are you.

    I never heard that Jews get blamed for not having a state, so details, please.

    Jews do not get blamed for having a state post 1948. They already had states and as you know, many Jews considered themselves Germans pre-1948 and post as well. Besides, the USA was home to many Jews. New York City has long been their de facto state.

    You and I, dumb goy that I am, know that the State of Israel is not despised because it’s a Jewish state, (I believe it’s a Zionist, not a Jewish one, btw, but that’s another story), but it’s despised for the terrorist methods used to gain the land, the ongoing oppression and sadistic, unnecessary violence waged against Palestinians, and the fact that Israel and Izzy sympathizers have a death grip on the media, on schooling, on our foreign and domestic policies, and on our government to say nothing of the dollars wrung out of the most bankrupt nation on Earth.

    I happen to be a very sensitive individual, so I react badly to attempted bullshitting… :)

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    • Agree: Z-man
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    All those criticisms apply to Israel's neighbours in the Middle East many times more.
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  137. @Jonathan Revusky

    None of those mass graves hold anything like the millions claimed.
     
    It is my understanding that current-day forensic science is so fine-tuned that, if you had even the smallest bit of human remains of somebody who was killed by Zyklon B gassing, the cause of death would be verifiable, even now, decades later. Millions of people were allegedly murdered with this poison gas and I have never heard of any fragment of a bone or tooth or lock of hair of any gassing victim ever being presented.

    Also, as far as I know, while there are various people who claim to have witnessed these mass gassings, none of these people have ever described a realistic protocol for gassing a large number of people to death and then removing the bodies and then disposing of them -- by that, I mean, a procedure that is even remotely feasible technically. I am pretty certain that any aggressive cross-examination of these eyewitnesses would reveal them to be liars. (Or "would have", since it is no longer possible, since they are all dead by now. Or at least I assume they are...)

    So, my current view is that any objective critical thinker, based on these sorts of basic facts, would realize that the gas chamber part of the story is simply untrue. It simply cannot withstand any critical analysis. The only reason to believe it is if one has a strong emotional need to believe the story. Hence the need to establish this as something akin to a religion.

    All that said, I have to admit that I believed the gas chamber story for most of my life, since I never subjected it to any critical analysis and had always ignored the revisionist literature. I trusted the mainstream portrayal of these people as just cranks. Once I decided to read some of the revisionist literature with an open mind, I quickly realized that they were basically telling the truth.

    So it is only recently that I have come to understand just how absurd most of the canonical Holocaust narrative really is. This was quite disturbing, but it was also liberating, because I came to realize how mentally oppressive all this Holocaustianity sacred narrative really is. But, more importantly, along with some other things (like JFK and 9/11...) it provided a very basic lesson. It's about understanding the difference between storytelling and real, established facts, which is what critical thinking is really about.

    So it is only recently that I have come to understand just how absurd most of the canonical Holocaust narrative really is.

    Take any bit of recent “history,” or other canonical narrative, subject it to a similar degree of scrutiny, and you’ll find that most of it is pure, highly adulterated, bull droppings. Most of what we’ve been taught stinks as bad as our politicians and international bankers do.

    Frauds-R-USA.

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  138. @Ex-Saffer
    Speaking of "righteous Gentiles," a matter concerning them has been gnawing at me. Have any of the Gentiles who risked their necks for Jews ever been given a share in the reparations that have been extracted from Germany? I am thinking optimistically that some small part of the vast apparatus dedicated to disbursing the money might have shared some of the largesse with the many farmers and factory-owners who hid Jews. Or did these courageous people merely get a pat on the head?

    Or did these courageous people merely get a pat on the head?

    Typically useful idiots get tossed under the bus as soon as their usefulness is done. The gullible Izzy-first crew is likely to find that out relatively soon.

    They don’t need to look for any sympathy from me.

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  139. Wally says:
    @szopen
    Sure, I've heard that already. "There are no mass graves!" SObibór mass graves discovered? "No, they are not mass graves, because there were no human remains there". But there are fragments of human bones found there? "No, they aren't, and besides, no way they could fit burned remains of 120-250k people in those seven graves". What about graves recently discovered in Treblinka? They are too small. And that's pretty much the discussion about any mass grave and any evidence.

    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

    What “mass graves recently discovered at Treblinka” /Sobibor?
    Show us what was found.

    In fact, I”ll spare you the trouble. Everyone observe and learn.
    remember:
    - claimed ’900,000 Jews buried at Treblinka’
    - claimed ’250,000 Jews buried at Sobibor’

    Alleged mass grave for 900,000 at Treblinka:Only these 6 skeletons from an admitted transit site that once move hundreds of thousands of people through, although Jews claim that 250,000 Jews are buried at this site, Sobibor.

    Of those measly few we have no idea:
    1. that they are Jews
    2. that they were actually murdered by the Germans and did not die of natural causes
    3. that they can be dated to the WWII era
    No lab analysis was permitted.
    These stones said to be remains of 250,000 jews
    No lab analysis was permitted.

    That’s what they found. This is The Big Lie aka: the ‘holocau$t’

    much more info.:

    https://codoh.com/search/?sorting=relevance&q=treblinka+sturdy

    and:

    https://codoh.com/search/?sorting=relevance&q=haimi+sobibor

    http://www.codoh.com

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    • Replies: @anarchyst
    If a country were hell-bent on genocide, WHY WOULD IT KEEP RECORDS?? WHY would it build “camps” hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away with sanitary facilities, housing, medical, recreational and other ancillary facilities? Would it not have been easier to just “eliminate” them without going through all of this trouble? Why would they expend massive effort on logistical movement utilizing their limited energy resources if the goal was extermination? Things do not "add up"...

    Something BIG “stinks” in this whole jewish “holocaust ™” deal. It is no secret that jewish Zionists made “deals” with the German government in order to make life “uncomfortable” for jewish Germans. In fact, it was jewish Zionist leaders who first proposed that all jews wear the "yellow Star of David" armband so that they could be easily identified.

    The establishment of a “homeland” along with the 6,000,000 figure was a Zionist “dream” since the 1800s. What better way to encourage “emigration” to a foreign land than to make things difficult for the “cream of German society” (jews)?? The TRUTH about the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” is out . . .

    The so-called jewish “holocaust ™” has been turned into a de-facto “religion” in which no deviation from orthodoxy is permitted. In fact, in most European countries, independent investigation into jewish “holocaust ™” truths is strictly forbidden under pain of fines and imprisonment. In the USA, things are not quite as bad, only job loss and personal and professional destruction at the hands of those of the “tribe” that FEAR the real truth of the jewish “holocaust ™” being exposed is evident. TRUTH CANNOT BE USED AS A DEFENSE OR ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE IN THE "KANGAROO COURTS" THAT PROSECUTE THOSE WHO DARE TO INVESTIGATE THIS HISTORICAL EVENT. A question for you "holocaust ™" promoters--why are there laws that criminalize the search for truth??

    When the truth about this historical event comes out, it will change much of the world’s perception about those that are using this event as a “cash cow” that “keeps on giving”. . . “there’s NO business like “SHOAH business”.
    Jewish complicity in this event is carefully “covered up”.

    A good example of present-day censorship is the fate that awaits those that dare question “official” jewish “holocaust” orthodoxy. Most European countries have criminalized ANY line of thought that deviates from the “official” jewish “holocaust” story. WHY?? In fact, TRUTH is no defense when it comes to “all things holocaust”. Ask noted WW2 researcher David Irving, who was forced to recant TRUTH in order to avoid punishment. . .

    If people only knew of the planning that took place (among those of the “chosen”) to engineer the jewish “holocaust”, there would be a pogrom of massive size. You see, the jewish “holocaust” was necessary in order to force the establishment of a jewish state. In this case, the ENDS justified the MEANS. There have been many “holocausts” of much greater misery throughout human history, yet the jewish “holocaust” is the only one that counts . . .

    Look at the “commercialization of the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” while the much larger communist (true) holocaust is conveniently forgotten. To assure a continuing supply of jewish “holocaust ™” “survivors”, jews are tattooing their ATM (oops, I mean “camp” numbers) on their children and grandchildren. In addition, jewish psychologists have come up with a new concept, and "disease"--"holocaust ™ " "transference syndrome. You see, children and grandchildren of jewish "holocaust ™" survivors are infected with this "disease" and should also be considered "holocaust ™" survivors, eligible for "holocaust ™" reparations".

    Since the jews declared war on Germany in 1933 (yes, 1933), the Germans had no choice but to complete the Zionist plan of marginalizing German jews (to say the least).. This fulfilled the Zionist plan of forcing German jews to emigrate to Palestine while making the world grant jews a “homeland”–Israel. It is interesting to note that the German boycott of jewish businesses lasted for one day, whil the jewish boycott (actually the jews' declaration of war on Germany) started in 1933 and lasted until the summation of WW2.

    Zionists have been predicting a jewish “homeland for the last two-hundred years while predicting a “holocaust ™” of 6 million for the same amount of time. The ACTUAL number of non-combatant deaths in the European theater of operations is approximately 731,000, NOT 6 million (official International Red Cross figures).

    Regarding that “holocaust ™” “showplace” Auschwitz, there are engineering inconsistencies in the design of the so-called “gas chambers”. The doors are not of a gas-tight design; it would have been impossible to retrieve the bodies, and there is no means to ventilate the rooms after the so-called “gassing” took place”. There is a "gas chamber" chimney that is not connected to anything. From an engineering standpoint, these are very serious errors that would have caused the deaths of the “operators” of these supposed “gas chambers”. As Germans were excellent engineers, it is difficult to observe the glaring engineering errors that presently exist in these "camps".

    American execution expert, Fred Leuchter travelled to Auschwitz, surreptitiously obtained samples from the purported “gas chambers”, had them tested and published his results. The absence of methylene blue in ALL of the samples, save one, was PROOF that the “gas chambers” did not exist. The one positive sample was taken from a room used to disinfect clothing. In fact, the "chimney" for the supposed "gas chamber" does not connect to anything.

    Mr. Leuchter’s was rewarded for his search for TRUTH by his professional and personal character assassination by those of the “tribe”. He lost all of his federal and state contracts, and was prosecuted under an obscure Massachusetts “law” for “practicing engineering without a license”–a law which had never been used before or since. . .

    It is no secret that after WW2, the Soviets attempted to “create” the “death camps” for propaganda purposes. Yes, there was extreme deprivation and suffering–many people perished. The prime cause of death was typhus. As allied bombings destroyed most of the infrastructure, typhus was at epidemic levels. THIS is what caused the massive amounts of human deaths . . .NOT gassing.

    It is interesting to note that, before the camps were "liberated" by the "allies", the camp occupants chose to flee with the German troops, rather than be "liberated" by the Russian "allies".

    I urge those "holocaust ™" believers to check these things out for yourselves--IF YOU DARE. You will not like what you find...
    , @szopen
    Fucking liar. That's why I don't discuss with people from CODOH.

    "'I’ve identified a number of buried pits using geophysical techniques. These are considerable in size, and very deep, one in particular is 26 by 17 metres.'"

     

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087735/British-archaeologist-discovers-fresh-evidence-mass-graves-World-War-Two-death-camp-Treblinka.html

    (lying even that "we don't know whether those buried ied of natural causes" for the one grave (not "mass grave"), when in one case there is a clear gunshot wound in the base of the skull)

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  140. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Jonathan Revusky

    None of those mass graves hold anything like the millions claimed.
     
    It is my understanding that current-day forensic science is so fine-tuned that, if you had even the smallest bit of human remains of somebody who was killed by Zyklon B gassing, the cause of death would be verifiable, even now, decades later. Millions of people were allegedly murdered with this poison gas and I have never heard of any fragment of a bone or tooth or lock of hair of any gassing victim ever being presented.

    Also, as far as I know, while there are various people who claim to have witnessed these mass gassings, none of these people have ever described a realistic protocol for gassing a large number of people to death and then removing the bodies and then disposing of them -- by that, I mean, a procedure that is even remotely feasible technically. I am pretty certain that any aggressive cross-examination of these eyewitnesses would reveal them to be liars. (Or "would have", since it is no longer possible, since they are all dead by now. Or at least I assume they are...)

    So, my current view is that any objective critical thinker, based on these sorts of basic facts, would realize that the gas chamber part of the story is simply untrue. It simply cannot withstand any critical analysis. The only reason to believe it is if one has a strong emotional need to believe the story. Hence the need to establish this as something akin to a religion.

    All that said, I have to admit that I believed the gas chamber story for most of my life, since I never subjected it to any critical analysis and had always ignored the revisionist literature. I trusted the mainstream portrayal of these people as just cranks. Once I decided to read some of the revisionist literature with an open mind, I quickly realized that they were basically telling the truth.

    So it is only recently that I have come to understand just how absurd most of the canonical Holocaust narrative really is. This was quite disturbing, but it was also liberating, because I came to realize how mentally oppressive all this Holocaustianity sacred narrative really is. But, more importantly, along with some other things (like JFK and 9/11...) it provided a very basic lesson. It's about understanding the difference between storytelling and real, established facts, which is what critical thinking is really about.

    So it is only recently that I have come to understand just how absurd most of the canonical Holocaust narrative really is.

    Millions of Jews surely suffered and many died by the hand of Nazis. But so did millions of other people, about whom we hear much less.

    Jewish insistence on the uniqueness of the crime of the Jewish Holocaust is the natural consequence of Jewish racism and supremacism. It is also a manifestation of Jewish hypocrisy, genocide being a standard tool of Jewish policy, past and present:

    And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. Deuteronomy 2:34

    And we utterly destroyed them, … utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. Deuteronomy 3:6

    And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2

    And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. Deuteronomy 7:16

    Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15

    But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17

    And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

    So smote all the country … he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts … go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

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  141. polskijoe says:
    @DESERT FOX
    These figures of 50 to 60 million are from Solzhentsyns book The Gulag Archipelago and Robert Conquests book Harvest of Sorrow, and others. The Jews were the vast majority of the communists in the Soviet aka communist government and ran the slaughter houses known as the Cheka, etc., these figures are not an exaggeration , and in fact may be on the low side.

    If the Zionists take our guns away we will see similar events right here in River City.

    The figures are a complete lie. I dont fall for low iq nonsense.

    I have read Solzehnitsyn and Rummels studies. And many many more.

    Solhentsyn (who I respect) had no clue about the numbers though.

    Lets talk about Robert Conquest then and see how smart you are:

    The Harvest of Sorrow… Conquest said he didnt have enough sources to confirm his findings.

    In Great Terror book he suggested 20 million-30.
    Robert Conquest later changed his estimate to ~15 million to 20 million.

    US exagerated estimates for political purposes and ignorance.

    Want more facts?

    Jews were in high numbers during the Bolshevik times up (in the top leadership). Each decade later their numbers dropped and influence dropped. Which is why most Jews with Commie sympathy today support Trotsky and Lenin, not Stalin.

    I admit that many Gulag leaders during the 1930s were Jews. and Cheka.

    Either way

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    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
    I stand by what I said.
    , @annamaria
    "Solhentsyn (who I respect) had no clue about the numbers though. The figures are a complete lie. I dont fall for low iq nonsense."
    - Have you personally had an access to the Soviet archives? Or you believe that since the facts (FACTS, documented facts) are inconvenient for the Jews it is Ok to sequester a book/documentary created by a Noble Prize Laureate in Literature. Who are you to bad-mouth Solzhenitsyn who stood up courageously to the Soviet regime when people like you were opportunistically submissive? Guess, the innocence of your mind does not allow you to take a look at Solzhenitsyn book: https://www.sott.net/article/271904-Solzhenitsyn-Banned-all-over-again http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/05/most-banned-book-in-the-world-200-years-together-aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/
    --- Too much against what your rabbi preaches on Saturdays, polskijoe?
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  142. @szopen
    Sure, I've heard that already. "There are no mass graves!" SObibór mass graves discovered? "No, they are not mass graves, because there were no human remains there". But there are fragments of human bones found there? "No, they aren't, and besides, no way they could fit burned remains of 120-250k people in those seven graves". What about graves recently discovered in Treblinka? They are too small. And that's pretty much the discussion about any mass grave and any evidence.

    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

    You’ve heard much, but apparently learned very little.

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  143. Wally says:
    @snag
    Listen, even if there were excesses in eastern Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, Latvia they took place after years of Soviet brutal occupation and in case of Poland after Soviets left running from Germans IT WAS A PAYBACK for Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupant. They welcomed invading Red Army with flowers and lists of potential resistance leaders, later they provided lists with the names deportees to Siberia where hundreds of thousands Poles periched in gulags. They did the same thing welcoming Germans ,...

    You have to remember that WWII started in September '39, Wannsee Conference and persecution of Jews only after Wannsee Conference in early '42 First transports of Jews to Birkenau started in the middle of '42, before that they were treated better in occupied Poland than Poles.

    Auschwitz was build for Poles and according to my father's friend the only Jews in Auschwitz were the Jewish criminals and mostly as kapos not prisoners.

    You’re just making stuff up as you go. Empty bar talk.

    Here’s the facts about the “Wannsee Conference”:

    The Wannsee Conference Protocol, Anatomy of a Fabrication:

    http://codoh.com/library/document/934/

    Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence:

    http://codoh.com/library/document/230/

    Wannsee Conference minutes debunked:

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1647

    http://www.codoh.com

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  144. @utu

    So why didn’t the British declare war on Slovakia too?
     
    For the same reason they did not declare war on USSR. A better question is why Polish government issued an order of not resisting or engaging Soviet troops on Sept. 17? And why did they all evacuate to Rumania and Hungary so soon?

    What is the source for this stand-down order? I know some Polish commanders initially did not oppose Soviet troops because they assumed they were coming to fight the Germans, but this was battlefield confusion, etc. Do you mean to say the Polish government told troops in the east to simply run and live to fight another day?

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  145. polskijoe says:
    @Wally
    recited:
    "Hmmm so, according to you, why before the war Poland had 3 million Jewish citizens, and after war 100.000?"

    Who said that? Not me.

    It is you who says they went to enormous & known mass graves. So why can't you show us the alleged huge Jew remains?

    Tell us how the alleged, laughable, but impossible 'gas chambers' worked.

    You predictably dodged these questions:

    - If some are so sure that millions of Jews were murdered, then why do they ask such dumb questions like "what happened to them then?

    After all, Jews say '6M Jews & 5M others' went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind.

    - If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$"?

    - If the alleged ‘holocaust’ was fact, then why are there laws in Europe to prevent scrutiny of it? What kind of “truth” needs to imprison people to prevent free speech?

    Must reads here:
    Holocaust Handbooks, Documentaries, & Videos: http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1
    Probing the Holocaust, pt. 1 https://codoh.com/library/document/4056/?lang=en
    and:
    Chemistry of Auschwitz / Birkenau
    https://youtu.be/SUc6Y_E5zb0

    www.codoh.com

    [quote]- If there was ‘a plan to kill every Jew the Germans could get their hands on’ as alleged, then why are there countless numbers of so called “survivor$”?\ [/quote]

    primitive question.

    because people find ways to escape, because people helped Jews, because many survived in camps and were released after the war.

    once the Nazi mass murderers getting destroyed by Slavics, they didnt have time finish their job.

    [quote]After all, Jews say ’6M Jews & 5M others’ went to huge mass graves, Jews claim to know the exact locations of these alleged enormous mass graves, yet Jews can show us nothing of the kind. [/quote]

    who cares what “Jews claim” (I doubt most of them claim that).

    3 million Poles were slaughtered
    4 million Ukrainians
    2 million Belarussians
    Even more Russians.

    Heck all credible estimates like at least 6 milion in Poland died, and 23-27 million in SU.

    You might convince 80-90 iqs of your bs. But it doesnt work on most normal people.

    Nazis at least had some intellgiene (though evil),
    while neonazis have double digit iqs.

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  146. @snag
    I beg your pardon but there's no such a thing like 'Polish Jews' and never was. no one invited them there they're Jewish invaders and squatters that never assimilated. Prior to WWII 3/4 of them couldn't communicate in Polish, 9/10 in writing. They didn't serve, didn't obey Polish law or pay taxes, they were nothing but drag on the rest of society.

    On the top of that they never failed to stab in the back native Poles every time there was an aggressor at the border. That was the case during partition of Poland and during the German an Russian occupation in 1939. Born to stab, scam, snitch ... for profit.

    Laughing.

    Well,

    you’ll have to take that up with Poland. Apparently, the Poland recognizes that their citizens are comprised on christians, atheist, muslims, doaists and jews. In other words, if Poland does not limit being polish to any particular faith — I am not in a position to challenge them . And if I were in said position —

    I wouldn’t.

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    • Replies: @snag
    Read my post again - I'm not the one that came up with that term or talking about faith.
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  147. AaronB says:

    Well, when Jews lost their state in Roman times they had three options. Assimilate, remain separate but keep a low profile like the Amish – don’t try and make tons of money and acquire power – or remain separate, and try and become powerful and wealthy and dominate your hosts.

    Jews choose option three, which guarantees strife. No one would mind Jews if they were a small community of pious worshippers like the Amish.

    The problem is that the Jews contract with God clearly states that God will make them rule over the nations, and grow rich and powerful. So it was never a realistic option that Jews would remain a community of inoffensive worshippers.

    A community of people that did not try and dominate and grow wealthy would not – could not – be Jewish, whatever it may be.

    Unlike Christianity, Judaism isn’t really defined by beliefs – there is no creed one must affirm. Judaism is an attitude towards life, an agenda, a program, a contract with God.

    Speaking to my religious Jewish friends I am more and more impressed with the seeming absence of a core of beliefs. For every opinion expressed by a rabbi, there is an opposing equally authoritative one.

    What matters is practice – practice the laws and rituals, and God will make you rulers over others and wealthy. Your flocks and your children shall multiply and the nation’s will bow down before you. That’s the deal. You can believe what you want.

    When Jews try and reconvert lapsed Jews back into the faith, they say you can believe whatever you want just start practicing the rituals. When Christians try and convert others they give you a list of things to believe in. Believe them, and you’re a Christian.

    Nothing is easier than to create doubt, and if you have beliefs you have to defend them. But if someone makes you doubt them, then your world is gone.

    But if your world never depended on beliefs, but on practices, attitudes towards life, you’re not so vulnerable. People can say what they want. What are they chipping away at exactly? Your life is based on an agenda with a contract at its center. Either the agenda is fulfilled, or it isn’t. What’s to argue about?

    Among the great civilizations, Christianity with its dependence on beliefs was uniquely vulnerable. If you could undermine Christian beliefs, you could create total confusion.

    Asians don’t have beliefs either, but just an attitude towards life and a set of practices. That’s why they are relatively unaffected by the belief based stupidities coming put of the West.

    If you do something because it’s “right”, then if I can convince you it isn’t right – not so difficult, as we can never really be sure – then you’ll lose your motivation to do it.

    But what if you do something because it leads to success or flourishing or is intrinsically satisfying? In that case, you can’t make me lose motivation by chipping away at my beliefs. Either an action leads to success or it doesn’t, either it’s satisfying or it isn’t.

    It is justified – or not – in itself, not in reference to something else.

    Christian emphasis on beliefs probably cane from Greek philosophy and is unique. Maybe it’s time to get rid of it.

    Do things not because of some belief but because it’s satisfying. It’s self justified, and no one can confuse you. The results are immediate.

    Or, like Jews, do things not because of beliefs but because they lead to certain goals, like power and wealth. That way, who can undermine you? You’re not doing anything because of some belief about the world that makes it “right”, which you can never be absolutely sure is true. Either that action leads to success, or not. At most, someone can challenge your tactics, but there is an easy way to test them. With beliefs, you can never test them, and doubt is easy to create in anyone. Doubt is at the center of the human condition. We can’t even prove that we exist, or that anything exists, or that causality is real. We are conducted to never be sure.

    Doubt is so easy to create, that Christians had to fight religious wars in order to suppress opposing opinions – so shaky were they in their own beliefs, and so threatened. By contrast, Islam fights only to subject you to the will of Allah – it too has a contract with God at its center, that the whole world will be subject to Islam in some way. That’s not a belief, that’s s goal, an agenda. How would you undermine that? You can’t.

    The strong person is not he who has strong beliefs but he who has replaced beliefs with goals, practices, and agendas – or who pursues intrinsically satisfying actions, that is, actions that give immediate pleasure and are not justified by a belief.

    Christian civilization had a weakness at its heart, and yet, the original message of Jesus was also not about a set of beliefs but a Way, a Path, a way to live that was immediately self-justifying in that it brought immense satisfaction, as love and self sacrifice are immediate pleasures that justify themselves – or not. But there is no room for doubt. It’s not a belief.

    Today the West still takes beliefs seriously – it thinks matter is real, the only real thing. Yet what we call matter is partly, maybe largely, a product of our own minds. There is a reality, but we can never know what it is. We can only see it through the distorting prism of our minds.

    It would be possible to once again undermine the Western belief in matter because all belief systems are vulnerable, but would that just be replaced by another belief, or would the West grow wise?

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  148. polskijoe says:
    @Wally
    One of longest '6M Jews' pieces of propaganda ever presented on www.unz.com
    No proof is presented whatsoever.

    Max Denken tries to slide by the utterly impossible 'holocaust' fantasy under the guise of Poles & Jews arguing over bragging rights is truly hilarious. A great example of GIGO: 'garbage in, garbage out.

    Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive"

    See Max Denken & his easily debunked 'holocau$t' nonsense further debunked in this thread:
    http://www.unz.com/freed/the-future-of-the-jews/

    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    Only lies require censorship and jail terms for free speech & Thought Crimes.

    Wise up & see the 'holocaust' scam easily & thoroughly debunked here: http://codoh.com
    Join in, No name calling, level playing field debate here: http://forum.codoh.com

    You like to troll and spam your fake website: so let me return the favor…

    Where is the proof millions of Germans died in WW2?

    Where are the bodies?

    Why do Germans send reperations to Jews, but not Poles or Russians or Greeks?
    Why did German collaborate with Zionists?
    Why did Germany send commies to Russia?
    Why Does Germany still attack Poland to this day?
    Why does Germany favor Muslims and Jews over Slavs?

    No name calling…

    sodoh.com

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    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    I would say that there is indeed proof that hundreds of thousands of German, French and Italian civilians were indeed incinerated by the RAF and Allied air forces. They never made a secret about their intent and openly boasted about it in newsreels and their own propaganda publications. There is plenty of authentic video footage of Dresden burning- not to mention of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    Also, the Soviet propaganda- a la Ilya Ehrenburg- openly called upon the Red Army soldiers to kill Germans. Little distinction was made between civilians and members of the Wehrmacht. The mass rapes of German women by the Red Army were likewise well documented.

    The numbers of German victims may well be exaggerated, however.

    Free French General Juin did give free reign to the Moroccan troops to rape the women in the villages around Monte Cassino and this has not been forgotten to this day in Italy. This is another Allied war crime that has been glossed over, just like the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff, the Goya, and the Cape Arcona.

    On the other hand, there is no physical evidence that the Germans indiscriminately slaughtered Slavs and Jews and there is no authentic documentary foundation for this. The Germans even gave p.o.w. status to many of the members of the Polish Home Army captured after the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising. And one can judge for oneself whether the Polish p.o.w.'s at Dachau "liberated" by the US Army look mistreated or ill fed.
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  149. Hmmmmmm . . .

    who to believe. I find a very tough sell for me to ell Germany and Poland that there was no holocaust in which Jews were primary targets when both

    Germany and Poland say there was.

    Collective dual state mass false confessions or acknowledgement –

    Maybe a coin toss.

    Excuse my potential heresy in either direction.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Well, governments worldwide said that witchcraft was fact, courts proved it, there were "eyewitnesses", "confessions", & "documents" galore.

    But like the alleged '6M Jews, 5M others & gas chambers', there was / is no proof.

    You're going through cognitive dissonance. You'll be fine.
    All Revisionists are former Believers.


    And why do so many want '6M Jews & 5M others' to be dead?
    Jews in particular should be elated to know that 6M of their brethren were not murdered.

    www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here: http://forum.codoh.com

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  150. AaronB says:

    I was reading an essay by George Santayana in which he makes the arresting remark – for the Jews, it was not enough that they had a God. They wanted everyone else not to have a God. I found that so striking.

    That’s the origin of Jewish monotheism – everyone had a tribal God, but to make your tribal God the only God, and you his favourite people, is a special kind of egotism.

    This attitude can help explain a lot of what’s going on today. It isn’t enough for Jews to have an ethno-state, it has to be that no one else has one. It isn’t enough for Jews to have a Holocaust, no one else can have suffered.

    And it makes sense. If life, for you, is about keeping score, then you have “enough” only compared to how much the other guy has. You can’t just be happy that you’ve got something good and let other people have it also. That’s s different kind of attitude to life, the one that’s about pursuing intrinsically satisfying actions.

    But that’s not Jewish. From the get go, Judaism is the score keeping attitude – your flocks shall prosper and you will multiply and rule over the nations. Not – go live an intrinsically satisfying life. One imagines from the start the Hebrews were a tribe that could not feel happiness.

    Happiness seeking and score keeping (which is really just happiness deferred to the future) are opposite philosophies, and Nietszche, one of the great believers in the score keeping approach, scorned happiness.

    A good book by Santatana is Egotism In German Philosophy, in which he makes the remark that Germans got their gigantic egotism from Jews. This was before the Nazis, and I was surprised that people were making that connection even back then. The Nazis were really a culmination of a long tradition of German egotism and not a sudden irruption out of nowhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Max Denken
    Interesting point, but you have to resist making a continuity from some 3500 years ago to now. You are right about the unique fanaticism of the original Jewish religion, and one might throw in a couple genocides there as well. However --and that's one of two ancient reasons why Jews are counted within the concept of Western civilization -- they were the first to outlaw human sacrifice. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the mythical description of that. And the other reason is that Christianity is a direct descendant of that Judaism, though not of the rabbinical-Talmudic one that has superseded the old times' religion for the Jews. And among the features of Judaism that have passed on to Christianity is that very fanaticism, going back to the third century and first codified in Nicea in 325 AD. Think wiping out whole groups of people, from old Saxons through the Prussians and other Northeast European pagan peoples, on to the Cathars, witches at the stake, Inquisition etc. The Roman state religion had had nothing of that fanaticism, that claim on an exclusive lock on the truth. So its' no longer correct to ascribe the features you do to the Jewish religion alone. And don't even get me started about Islam...
    , @snag
    "This attitude can help explain a lot of what’s going on today. It isn’t enough for Jews to have an ethno-state, it has to be that no one else has one. It isn’t enough for Jews to have a Holocaust, no one else can have suffered"

    There're over 70 million of ethnic Germans in US, 56 million of ethnic Irish, 17 million ethnic Italians, 12 million ethnic Poles, you don't even know that they exist except once a year during October Festivities or St. Patrick, Columbus and Pulaski days, for the rest of the year they blend in and are an Americans ,...

    Other ethnic and religious minorities in US they all mingle, follow their heart, intermarry and no one is making a fuss about it except the Jews. Their self absorbance and egocentric philosophy is like leprosy that can't be cured.

    Take a look at Jewish multi-culti and inclusiveness activist's spouse's, no multi-culti or inclusiveness there, no sir ,...
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  151. Art says:
    @Tyrion 2
    Hey Art,

    I've found you, you 70 year old crazy lunatic!

    Arthur Jones formerly of the American Nazi Party. You're a national embarrassment and a slur on the Republican party.

    Why not boost them by dropping out and declaring that they are the opposite of Nazis and so you had to leave?

    Best regards,

    Me.

    I’ve found you, you 70 year old crazy lunatic!

    Arthur Jones formerly of the American Nazi Party.

    Tyrion 2,

    Sorry – your are 100% wrong – I am not that person. I hate Hitler and Nazis.

    “Art” is a handle – not my actual name.

    I have never belonged to any party.

    Outside of comments – I have never been published.

    Think Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Outside of comments – I have never been published.

    Get real, Arts, no one, as in nobody here, believes this. :)
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  152. Lex says:
    @Michael Kenny
    As always, the article is just a pretext to launch yet another hysterical American attack on the EU. I would guess that the shadowy author, who seems to exist only on an anti-Muslim hate site called Gates of Vienna, is seeking to use this issue to drive a wedge between Poland and the EU which, even if anybody in Poland actually reads the article, is unlikely to succeed inasmuch as Poland’s only alternative to the EU is Putin’s tanks.
    The crazy thing about the “crisis”, though, is that there isn’t a crisis! As the author points out, there is no “Polish bill to outlaw talk of Poles’ complicity in the Nazis’ crimes”. According to the BBC’s translation, the bill provides that "whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes committed by the Third German Reich … shall be subject to a fine or a penalty of imprisonment of up to three years". The Polish nation and the Polish State, not individual Poles or private Polish groups, and even then, only if it’s “against the facts”. During the period in question, the entire territory of the Polish Republic was under German or Soviet occupation, so it’s hard to see how the Polish State could have any responsibility for the death camps on its territory. There wasn’t even a local “quisling” Polish government. As for the Polish nation, that is to say, the Polish people in its entirety, as an ethnic group, it’s hard to see, without even a quisling government claiming to act on their behalf and which, it might be alleged, most of them supported, how they could be held responsible for anything the Germans did while in their country. The individual responsibility of any individual Pole for conduct under the occupation is untouched and unchallenged. At first glance, therefore, the bill appears to be absurd and unnecessary.
    My best guess is that’s what’s behind it is the question of property rights: foreign, mainly American or Israeli, Jews claiming entitlement to property on the basis that an ancestor of theirs was improperly deprived of it during the German occupation. In other words, not just a doctrine of “collective guilt” but a sort of “hereditary collective guilt”. The communist regime seized all property and after the fall of the dictatorship, houses, apartments, business premises etc. were sold off, often to the people who actually occupied them. What people fear is that someone will now come along and claim the property that they thought they had bought and paid for, forcing the Polish government to buy them off or see its own citizens evicted from the property. To what extent that has, or is actually happening, I don’t know.

    Szewach Weiss(former ambassador of Israel to Poland and Chairman of the Knesset) – so called “friend of Poland” – claims that Poland has to pay out at least 65 billion dollars to Jews because it is Poland’s moral obligation since Germans committed their crimes on Polish soil. I am not distorting his message in any way, that’s what he said.

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    Link please. To a primary source.
    , @Seraphim
    That was the case everywhere.
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  153. Paw says:
    @animalogic
    Good balanced article (except for the usual cult-marxist nonsence about the MSM...as if some bilge about diversity, homosexuals, whatever makes such "organs" as the WP or NYT " left': 40 years spruiking neoliberalism and neoconservativism does NOT "left" make.
    I'm happy to discuss "the holocaust". When Jews are mentioned, I ask "and"?. I'm looking for these terms: Gypsy, socialist, Jehovah's Witness, communist, Slav, and so on.
    Jews/Israel have been running to the holocaust well over 70 years now, and its starting to run DRY.

    What is more , now there is one Holocaust too far. Hysteria used against Poland /very proud nation/ , must cover far worse holocaust , like in Bolshevik Russia.
    As usual the huge hysteria is suppose to be solutions and to cover , reasons why there are many centuries long hostilities against the jews. At the same time.
    Every Hysteria is to dominate others. Anyone with experience and contacts , living with them , can talk. But is not permitted.

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  154. iffen says:
    @Art

    I’ve found you, you 70 year old crazy lunatic!

    Arthur Jones formerly of the American Nazi Party.
     
    Tyrion 2,

    Sorry - your are 100% wrong - I am not that person. I hate Hitler and Nazis.

    "Art" is a handle - not my actual name.

    I have never belonged to any party.

    Outside of comments - I have never been published.

    Think Peace --- Art

    Outside of comments – I have never been published.

    Get real, Arts, no one, as in nobody here, believes this. :)

    Read More
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  155. @polskijoe
    The figures are a complete lie. I dont fall for low iq nonsense.

    I have read Solzehnitsyn and Rummels studies. And many many more.

    Solhentsyn (who I respect) had no clue about the numbers though.

    Lets talk about Robert Conquest then and see how smart you are:

    The Harvest of Sorrow... Conquest said he didnt have enough sources to confirm his findings.

    In Great Terror book he suggested 20 million-30.
    Robert Conquest later changed his estimate to ~15 million to 20 million.


    US exagerated estimates for political purposes and ignorance.



    Want more facts?

    Jews were in high numbers during the Bolshevik times up (in the top leadership). Each decade later their numbers dropped and influence dropped. Which is why most Jews with Commie sympathy today support Trotsky and Lenin, not Stalin.

    I admit that many Gulag leaders during the 1930s were Jews. and Cheka.

    Either way

    I stand by what I said.

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  156. Wally says:
    @EliteCommInc.
    Hmmmmmm . . .


    who to believe. I find a very tough sell for me to ell Germany and Poland that there was no holocaust in which Jews were primary targets when both

    Germany and Poland say there was.

    Collective dual state mass false confessions or acknowledgement --


    Maybe a coin toss.

    Excuse my potential heresy in either direction.

    Well, governments worldwide said that witchcraft was fact, courts proved it, there were “eyewitnesses”, “confessions”, & “documents” galore.

    But like the alleged ’6M Jews, 5M others & gas chambers’, there was / is no proof.

    You’re going through cognitive dissonance. You’ll be fine.
    All Revisionists are former Believers.

    And why do so many want ’6M Jews & 5M others’ to be dead?
    Jews in particular should be elated to know that 6M of their brethren were not murdered.

    http://www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here: http://forum.codoh.com

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    As my comment notes ---


    Germany and Poland both grant out that Jews German and Polish were targeted. I think you will have to take up your complaint with them.
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  157. @AaronB
    I was reading an essay by George Santayana in which he makes the arresting remark - for the Jews, it was not enough that they had a God. They wanted everyone else not to have a God. I found that so striking.

    That's the origin of Jewish monotheism - everyone had a tribal God, but to make your tribal God the only God, and you his favourite people, is a special kind of egotism.

    This attitude can help explain a lot of what's going on today. It isn't enough for Jews to have an ethno-state, it has to be that no one else has one. It isn't enough for Jews to have a Holocaust, no one else can have suffered.

    And it makes sense. If life, for you, is about keeping score, then you have "enough" only compared to how much the other guy has. You can't just be happy that you've got something good and let other people have it also. That's s different kind of attitude to life, the one that's about pursuing intrinsically satisfying actions.

    But that's not Jewish. From the get go, Judaism is the score keeping attitude - your flocks shall prosper and you will multiply and rule over the nations. Not - go live an intrinsically satisfying life. One imagines from the start the Hebrews were a tribe that could not feel happiness.

    Happiness seeking and score keeping (which is really just happiness deferred to the future) are opposite philosophies, and Nietszche, one of the great believers in the score keeping approach, scorned happiness.

    A good book by Santatana is Egotism In German Philosophy, in which he makes the remark that Germans got their gigantic egotism from Jews. This was before the Nazis, and I was surprised that people were making that connection even back then. The Nazis were really a culmination of a long tradition of German egotism and not a sudden irruption out of nowhere.

    Interesting point, but you have to resist making a continuity from some 3500 years ago to now. You are right about the unique fanaticism of the original Jewish religion, and one might throw in a couple genocides there as well. However –and that’s one of two ancient reasons why Jews are counted within the concept of Western civilization — they were the first to outlaw human sacrifice. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the mythical description of that. And the other reason is that Christianity is a direct descendant of that Judaism, though not of the rabbinical-Talmudic one that has superseded the old times’ religion for the Jews. And among the features of Judaism that have passed on to Christianity is that very fanaticism, going back to the third century and first codified in Nicea in 325 AD. Think wiping out whole groups of people, from old Saxons through the Prussians and other Northeast European pagan peoples, on to the Cathars, witches at the stake, Inquisition etc. The Roman state religion had had nothing of that fanaticism, that claim on an exclusive lock on the truth. So its’ no longer correct to ascribe the features you do to the Jewish religion alone. And don’t even get me started about Islam…

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Sure, but there's also some level of continuity, and Talmudism clearly is a continuation of certain strands on the Old Testament.

    The way I see it, Old Testament Judaism towards the end reached a level of wisdom found among the Greeks and Indians. Some of the prophets, and Kohelet and the other wisdom books, transcend the old Jewish egotism and materialism.

    Talmudism revived the pure egotistical strain and adapted it to the exile and it's new challenges.

    Were Jews the first to abolish human sacrifice? The Bible as we have it now was compiled, I think, around the 8th or 7th centuries BC, after the Babylonian exile. Were Egyptians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Mycebaeans, practicing human sacrifice so late?

    I'm not sure, but I don't think so. But if they were, I'm happy to give them credit for it.

    And you're right, many unpleasant and objectionable Jewish elements bled into Christianity - even the pernicious notion of a chosen people, a New Israel - and the protestants revived the Jewish strain in a serious way.

    The Spanish extermination of entire higher civilizations is very much in the Jewish spirit also.

    Unfortunately, I regard Christianity as irredeemably tainted, although I deeply admire the original message of Jesus Christ, which I regard as essentially Indian wisdom.

    Islam also has a serious egotistical side, but the Sufi strain redeems it, and even mainstream Islam has attractive features.

    I'm certainly not suggesting egotism is to be found only in Judaism - far from it. Egotism is a human perennial, and creeps in everywhere. I merely think Judaism is the purest expression of egotism that the world has yet seen. But if Judaism vanished tomorrow, some philosophy just like it would have to arise. Pure egotism is one possible position in the spectrum of positions, and many people will always be found who will fill that niche.

    Just like the poor will always be with us, as Jesus said, so will egotism. It's almost accidental that a people called "Jews " are the ones filling that niche in actuality.
    , @Seraphim
    "And among the features of Judaism that have passed on to Christianity is that very fanaticism, going back to the third century and first codified in Nicea in 325 AD".

    Es ist die Loslösung vom Denken (Undenken).
    Approximate English translation : bullshitting.

    , @iffen
    Jews are counted within the concept of Western civilization

    Who’s doing the counting?

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/03/06/on-the-semiotics-of-judeo-christian-as-a-misdirection/
    , @Mulegino1
    Neither the religion we know as "Judaism" nor such a people as "Jews" existed in the time of Abraham and Isaac, and the term "Jews" and "Judaism" cannot be anything but anachronisms when referring to the religion practiced by the Israelites and the Judeans, i.e., the Mosaic covenant or the worship practiced by the Patriarchs and the Prophets.

    Judaism/Rabbinism/Talmudism, in its current form, postdates Christianity by centuries and was an outgrowth of one particular sect among the Judeans, i.e., the Pharisees.

    Christ was a Judean (Iudeos) and not a Jew in the commonly understood contemporary sense. "Judaism" is a radical departure from the religion practiced in the Levant and among the diaspora of the time of Christ. "Judean" was an inhabitant of Judea who considered the true worship to be conducted at the Temple at Jerusalem, as contrasted with the Samaritans who believed that the authentic Temple was on Mt. Gerizim.

    Contemporary Judaism holds the Babylonian Talmud to be its authoritative text, not the Torah or the writings. Also, it is matrilineal. These are both diametric departures from the Old Testament tradition which considered the Pentateuch or first five books of Moses/Torah to be authoritative, and were indisputably patrilineal. The Karaites, the Samaritans and the Falashas are all patrilineal and accept only the Torah as authoritative and thus more authentically reflect that tradition.

    The oldest extant version of the Old Testament is the Greek Septuagint which was translated from ancient Paleo-Hebrew texts in the fourth century B.C., and was the one most quoted by Christ and the Apostles as per the most ancient manuscripts of the New Testament. This version predates the Massoretic translations- which were not even written in Paleo-Hebrew - by approximately 1400 years. The Massoretic texts have been deliberately falsified in places in order to detract from Christ's fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies.
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  158. anarchyst says:
    @Wally
    What "mass graves recently discovered at Treblinka" /Sobibor?
    Show us what was found.

    In fact, I''ll spare you the trouble. Everyone observe and learn.
    remember:
    - claimed '900,000 Jews buried at Treblinka'
    - claimed '250,000 Jews buried at Sobibor'

    Alleged mass grave for 900,000 at Treblinka:
    http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/2/Treblinka.jpg

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/02/08/2DE8CADB00000578-3295228-Mass_graves_Museum_staff_at_Sobib_r_Nazi_death_camp_in_Poland_fo-a-5_1446453391739.jpg
    Only these 6 skeletons from an admitted transit site that once move hundreds of thousands of people through, although Jews claim that 250,000 Jews are buried at this site, Sobibor.

    Of those measly few we have no idea:
    1. that they are Jews
    2. that they were actually murdered by the Germans and did not die of natural causes
    3. that they can be dated to the WWII era
    No lab analysis was permitted.

    http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2014/12/Sobibor2.jpg
    These stones said to be remains of 250,000 jews
    No lab analysis was permitted.

    That's what they found. This is The Big Lie aka: the 'holocau$t'

    much more info.:
    https://codoh.com/search/?sorting=relevance&q=treblinka+sturdy
    and:
    https://codoh.com/search/?sorting=relevance&q=haimi+sobibor

    www.codoh.com

    If a country were hell-bent on genocide, WHY WOULD IT KEEP RECORDS?? WHY would it build “camps” hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away with sanitary facilities, housing, medical, recreational and other ancillary facilities? Would it not have been easier to just “eliminate” them without going through all of this trouble? Why would they expend massive effort on logistical movement utilizing their limited energy resources if the goal was extermination? Things do not “add up”…

    Something BIG “stinks” in this whole jewish “holocaust ™” deal. It is no secret that jewish Zionists made “deals” with the German government in order to make life “uncomfortable” for jewish Germans. In fact, it was jewish Zionist leaders who first proposed that all jews wear the “yellow Star of David” armband so that they could be easily identified.

    The establishment of a “homeland” along with the 6,000,000 figure was a Zionist “dream” since the 1800s. What better way to encourage “emigration” to a foreign land than to make things difficult for the “cream of German society” (jews)?? The TRUTH about the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” is out . . .

    The so-called jewish “holocaust ™” has been turned into a de-facto “religion” in which no deviation from orthodoxy is permitted. In fact, in most European countries, independent investigation into jewish “holocaust ™” truths is strictly forbidden under pain of fines and imprisonment. In the USA, things are not quite as bad, only job loss and personal and professional destruction at the hands of those of the “tribe” that FEAR the real truth of the jewish “holocaust ™” being exposed is evident. TRUTH CANNOT BE USED AS A DEFENSE OR ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE IN THE “KANGAROO COURTS” THAT PROSECUTE THOSE WHO DARE TO INVESTIGATE THIS HISTORICAL EVENT. A question for you “holocaust ™” promoters–why are there laws that criminalize the search for truth??

    When the truth about this historical event comes out, it will change much of the world’s perception about those that are using this event as a “cash cow” that “keeps on giving”. . . “there’s NO business like “SHOAH business”.
    Jewish complicity in this event is carefully “covered up”.

    A good example of present-day censorship is the fate that awaits those that dare question “official” jewish “holocaust” orthodoxy. Most European countries have criminalized ANY line of thought that deviates from the “official” jewish “holocaust” story. WHY?? In fact, TRUTH is no defense when it comes to “all things holocaust”. Ask noted WW2 researcher David Irving, who was forced to recant TRUTH in order to avoid punishment. . .

    If people only knew of the planning that took place (among those of the “chosen”) to engineer the jewish “holocaust”, there would be a pogrom of massive size. You see, the jewish “holocaust” was necessary in order to force the establishment of a jewish state. In this case, the ENDS justified the MEANS. There have been many “holocausts” of much greater misery throughout human history, yet the jewish “holocaust” is the only one that counts . . .

    Look at the “commercialization of the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” while the much larger communist (true) holocaust is conveniently forgotten. To assure a continuing supply of jewish “holocaust ™” “survivors”, jews are tattooing their ATM (oops, I mean “camp” numbers) on their children and grandchildren. In addition, jewish psychologists have come up with a new concept, and “disease”–”holocaust ™ ” “transference syndrome. You see, children and grandchildren of jewish “holocaust ™” survivors are infected with this “disease” and should also be considered “holocaust ™” survivors, eligible for “holocaust ™” reparations”.

    Since the jews declared war on Germany in 1933 (yes, 1933), the Germans had no choice but to complete the Zionist plan of marginalizing German jews (to say the least).. This fulfilled the Zionist plan of forcing German jews to emigrate to Palestine while making the world grant jews a “homeland”–Israel. It is interesting to note that the German boycott of jewish businesses lasted for one day, whil the jewish boycott (actually the jews’ declaration of war on Germany) started in 1933 and lasted until the summation of WW2.

    Zionists have been predicting a jewish “homeland for the last two-hundred years while predicting a “holocaust ™” of 6 million for the same amount of time. The ACTUAL number of non-combatant deaths in the European theater of operations is approximately 731,000, NOT 6 million (official International Red Cross figures).

    Regarding that “holocaust ™” “showplace” Auschwitz, there are engineering inconsistencies in the design of the so-called “gas chambers”. The doors are not of a gas-tight design; it would have been impossible to retrieve the bodies, and there is no means to ventilate the rooms after the so-called “gassing” took place”. There is a “gas chamber” chimney that is not connected to anything. From an engineering standpoint, these are very serious errors that would have caused the deaths of the “operators” of these supposed “gas chambers”. As Germans were excellent engineers, it is difficult to observe the glaring engineering errors that presently exist in these “camps”.

    American execution expert, Fred Leuchter travelled to Auschwitz, surreptitiously obtained samples from the purported “gas chambers”, had them tested and published his results. The absence of methylene blue in ALL of the samples, save one, was PROOF that the “gas chambers” did not exist. The one positive sample was taken from a room used to disinfect clothing. In fact, the “chimney” for the supposed “gas chamber” does not connect to anything.

    Mr. Leuchter’s was rewarded for his search for TRUTH by his professional and personal character assassination by those of the “tribe”. He lost all of his federal and state contracts, and was prosecuted under an obscure Massachusetts “law” for “practicing engineering without a license”–a law which had never been used before or since. . .

    It is no secret that after WW2, the Soviets attempted to “create” the “death camps” for propaganda purposes. Yes, there was extreme deprivation and suffering–many people perished. The prime cause of death was typhus. As allied bombings destroyed most of the infrastructure, typhus was at epidemic levels. THIS is what caused the massive amounts of human deaths . . .NOT gassing.

    It is interesting to note that, before the camps were “liberated” by the “allies”, the camp occupants chose to flee with the German troops, rather than be “liberated” by the Russian “allies”.

    I urge those “holocaust ™” believers to check these things out for yourselves–IF YOU DARE. You will not like what you find…

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    • Replies: @snag
    Remember those famous lampshades of human skin in Stutthof, or soap of jewish flesh ... No evidence Crap. I remember a sign 4 million gassed in Birkenau today is 900.000 and slipping down.

    Yad Vashem have a list of 3 million victims of German persecution with some names counted twice that means more than 3 million are MIA - In 2007 Germans opened their (meticulous) archives for scholars to study, the list in Yad Vashem haven't changed and for what I know there's no interest on their side to start digging and prove that they're right and the rest of us who dare to contest that 6 millions their are wrong.

    , @jilles dykstra
    Indeed, even Elie Wiesel writes that he could have stayed, with his father
    Elie Wiesel, 'La Nuit', 1958, 2007
    His father was in hospital.
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  159. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    And no matter how much people here will deny it, there is a strong ethnic kinship with Germans in UK and US
     
    Britain must be one of the most obsessively anti-German countries in Europe, their entire public discourse is full of perpetual references to the world wars and Germany's alleged quest to dominate Europe even today. And while there are lots of Americans with some German ancestry, this doesn't really manifest itself in any German cultural power in the US or in positive attitudes towards Germany (at least I've never noticed anything of the kind...more like we're always being reminded that we're still on probation and can't really be trusted).
    Nor do I buy that there is a concerted effort to blame Poles for the Holocaust due to geopolitical reasons. The truth is simply that lots of Jews dislike Poles for the traditional antisemitism in Polish society (which shouldn't be confused with Nazi exterminationist antisemitism) and therefore have a warped view of WW2 realities in Poland.

    Well, it is relative. Britain dislikes a lot of other countries, so superficially you will also find anti-German expressions. (I once mentioned the term ‘Irish Express’ to a Brit – logistics company – and he promptly called it an oxymoron.) I am talking about the national policy – the stuff that comes out of British universities, media, government.

    The national policy (of both US and UK) is skewed towards Germany. They are in Nato together, so it is understandable. There has been quite a bit of well funded effort (books, lectures, etc…) to shift some of the blame for WWII from Germany, it is also always referred to as ‘Nazis’, not Germans.

    Whenever Germans show some independent thought, the WWII is used to bludgeon them back into obedience. But as long as they are loyal, the downplaying and relativisation continues. In general, British an American understanding of WWII is bizarrely false, but I don’t want to get into that – complex and long topic.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    it is also always referred to as ‘Nazis’, not Germans.

    Like people are always saying Bolsheviks, commies, Soviets, etc. rather than ...

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  160. annamaria says:
    @polskijoe
    The figures are a complete lie. I dont fall for low iq nonsense.

    I have read Solzehnitsyn and Rummels studies. And many many more.

    Solhentsyn (who I respect) had no clue about the numbers though.

    Lets talk about Robert Conquest then and see how smart you are:

    The Harvest of Sorrow... Conquest said he didnt have enough sources to confirm his findings.

    In Great Terror book he suggested 20 million-30.
    Robert Conquest later changed his estimate to ~15 million to 20 million.


    US exagerated estimates for political purposes and ignorance.



    Want more facts?

    Jews were in high numbers during the Bolshevik times up (in the top leadership). Each decade later their numbers dropped and influence dropped. Which is why most Jews with Commie sympathy today support Trotsky and Lenin, not Stalin.

    I admit that many Gulag leaders during the 1930s were Jews. and Cheka.

    Either way

    “Solhentsyn (who I respect) had no clue about the numbers though. The figures are a complete lie. I dont fall for low iq nonsense.”
    - Have you personally had an access to the Soviet archives? Or you believe that since the facts (FACTS, documented facts) are inconvenient for the Jews it is Ok to sequester a book/documentary created by a Noble Prize Laureate in Literature. Who are you to bad-mouth Solzhenitsyn who stood up courageously to the Soviet regime when people like you were opportunistically submissive? Guess, the innocence of your mind does not allow you to take a look at Solzhenitsyn book: https://www.sott.net/article/271904-Solzhenitsyn-Banned-all-over-again http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/05/most-banned-book-in-the-world-200-years-together-aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/
    — Too much against what your rabbi preaches on Saturdays, polskijoe?

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    • Replies: @polskijoe
    what the hell does your comment even mean?

    I said I respect him. But he was not an expert on the numbers.

    Soviet archives were realesed but partly...

    Look at the demographics, its impossible 60 million lost their lives.

    Are you gonna babble too much Adolf crap? who allied with Zionists?
    looks like you are the Jewess.

    FACT IS that a large number (and most) historians have lower estimates for Stalin murders.

    Do some research instead of depending on one or two estimates.

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  161. Tyrion 2 says:
    @jacques sheete

    Jews get blamed for not having a state pre-1945. Jews get blamed for having a state post-1948.
     
    Oh, c'mon, Tyrion! This is an unfair fight; a dumb goy vs a very intelligent and knowledgeable "Jew," but please, I'm not exactly that dense and neither are you.

    I never heard that Jews get blamed for not having a state, so details, please.

    Jews do not get blamed for having a state post 1948. They already had states and as you know, many Jews considered themselves Germans pre-1948 and post as well. Besides, the USA was home to many Jews. New York City has long been their de facto state.

    You and I, dumb goy that I am, know that the State of Israel is not despised because it's a Jewish state, (I believe it's a Zionist, not a Jewish one, btw, but that's another story), but it's despised for the terrorist methods used to gain the land, the ongoing oppression and sadistic, unnecessary violence waged against Palestinians, and the fact that Israel and Izzy sympathizers have a death grip on the media, on schooling, on our foreign and domestic policies, and on our government to say nothing of the dollars wrung out of the most bankrupt nation on Earth.

    I happen to be a very sensitive individual, so I react badly to attempted bullshitting... :)

    All those criticisms apply to Israel’s neighbours in the Middle East many times more.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    All those criticisms apply to Israel’s neighbours in the Middle East many times more.

     

    Did you miss these, or do you really believe that these criticisms apply to Israel’s neighbours in the Middle East many times more?

    ... have a death grip on the media, on schooling, on our foreign and domestic policies, and on our government to say nothing of the dollars wrung out of the most bankrupt nation on Earth.
     
    Can you name any?

    Man, I'm learning a lot of kool stuff that I heretofore never dreamed of! Damn, yer good!
    , @annamaria
    Get off American back. If Israel is for Jews only, please invite all your brethren and sisterhood there and leave western civilization alone. We have enough of your bloody Esthers, "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks," and other Naftali Frankel (of GULAG fame), Lazar Kaganovich (of Holodomor fame), and Helena Woliskis (of killing-out-the-Poles fame).
    By the way, that was a clear case for Nazi-hunters: "Helena Wolinska, 88, a former Polish prosecutor who has lived in England since 1972, is accused of fabricating evidence against Gen Emil Fieldorf, a member of the Polish resistance during the Second World War" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1570040/Oxford-dons-wife-sent-war-hero-to-his-death.html
    You need to learn how to live with your Arab cousins without using the resources of other nations.
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  162. @jacques sheete

    It’s useless to argue with religious fanatics...
     
    Does that include fake monotheists, rabid JINOs, deranged rabbis, and "ethno"-fanatics such as the Izzy first crowd?

    How do we deal with the likes of this creature and its supporters?


    “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel.”
    Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat.”According to Yosef, death has “no dominion” over non-Jews in Israel.
    "Hate the Gentile!" Israel’s Racist Rabbis, by JONATHAN COOK
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/12/10/israel-s-racist-rabbis/
     
    What about one of the chief agitators for war, "rabbi" Stephen Wise, an intimate of FDR, the Red? What are we to think?

    As you could infer from the essay above, I am hardly an apologist for the Jewish view of the world. And I can quote the items you mentioned, and raise you some. Yet you cannot trace these people with your brush and than pass that brush over the entire Jewish people, throughout their entire history at that. Also, no critique of Jews, even the harshest, excuses pitiful attempts to rewrite history, to make Hitler into the good guy and the Third Reich into an innocent victim of Jewish perfidy. That is even more insane than the rabbis’ quotes.

    History is complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, in the JQ area too.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    As you could infer from the essay above

    Such confidence in the commentariat is unwarranted.

    History is complex. There is no black and white.

    I live in Alabama and our history has been black and white for over two hundred years.

    BTW, excellent article. I don't know what gets into R. Unz sometimes.
    , @jacques sheete

    History is complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, in the JQ area too.
     
    Maybe you should take your own advice.

    Most of the anti-Hitler rhetoric here is nothing but over the top Red propaganda and you have to know it.

    Do you have any idea of who financed all the bullshit that was going on a century ago?

    All this jaw- jaw about holocausts and what not annoys me to no end because none of it or the other finger pointing gets at the heart of the matter which is who was behind all of it.

    History is not always complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, and have the courage to ask questions and peek behind the curtain.

    History can be complex, but in this case it's not as complex as it's made out to be. Follow the Yellow Brick Road and peek behind the bushes along the way.


    Why, my fellow citizens, is there any man here or any woman, let me say is there any child here, who does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry…and the reason why some nations went into the war against Germany was that they thought Germany would get the commercial advantage of them. The seed of the jealousy, the seed of the deep-seated hatred was hot, successful commercial and industrial rivalry…
    This war, in its inception was a commercial and industrial war. It was not a political war.

    -Woodrow Wilson, Address at the Coliseum in St. Louis, Missouri, September 5, 1919
    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=117365
     

    On occasion even a rotten politician spills the beans. WW2 was, as Churchill said, both unnecessary, and an extension of WW1. Connect the dots.
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  163. All those criticisms apply to Israel’s neighbours in the Middle East many times more.

    Please, dear sir, I already appealed to to your kindliness:

    I happen to be a very sensitive individual, so I react badly to attempted bullshitting

    Do you have any idea how bad it hurts to be the butt of attempted condescension?

    Besides, I thought the Izzies were special and chosen to be above all that. Would a super race really stoop to such behavior? Why?

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  164. @polskijoe
    Hitler lovers and pro Nazi revisionists are annoying as hell. They can enjoy their diversity and liberalism. It was their policies which destroyed much of Europe resulting in Liberalism and Zionism winning.

    Ukrainian Nationalists and Nazi larpers like to claim 10-14 million Ukrainians died.

    Yet most expperts have agreed directly 3-5 million Ukrainian starved.. and a couple million more Russians/Khazaks/Caucasians/etc. It was known as Soviet famine. Holodomar refers to Ukrainians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%9333

    (wikipedia is biased and sometimes wrong, but its superior to any Nazi crap).


    Now when some Nazi mass murdering, raping, genociding, evils were busy shooting people for being untermenschen, bombing cities, and sending them to death camps then obviously they are too blame.


    Honestly I have even heard some larpers even claim Kalergi was a Jew, Stalin was a Jew, etc.
    (Kalergi was Japan-Euro hybrid) and Stalin was Georgian (Djugasvili does NOT mean son of a Jew).


    I dislike organized Jewry, but I will never side with Liberty Lobby, revisionist, genocide deniers.

    Germany has been attacking Slavic lands for 1000 years. Teutonic Knights, antiPolish scum
    like Bismarck (also antiCatholic), Hitler (also antiCatholic), Fredrick the "great", etc.

    Hitler lovers and pro Nazi revisionists are annoying as hell.

    Hitler lovers make more sense than the Bolshie lovers (e.g., Stalin lovers) and the FDR and Churchill lovers, neither of whom had a dog in the fight.

    There would have been no Nazi movement if there had been no Wall Street financed Bolshie Revolution. Hitler was long on the defensive while the US and Great Britain never were threatened by any stretch of the imagination. So…it’s perfectly plain to see that FDR and Churchill were much worse than Hitler, and Stalin had been raising Hell long before Hitler came to power, so who’s worse there? I do admire Stalin for exterminating a lot of the old Bolshies and for letting Hitler circumvent parts of the Versailles Treaty by allowing the German military to train in the USSR. Still, Stalin was worse than Hitler by any measure, but better than the two amoral aristocrat dandy criminals, FDR and Churchill.

    So you FDR and Churchill lovers are not only annoying but as criminal as they and their money bag backers were.

    They can enjoy their diversity and liberalism. It was their policies which destroyed much of Europe resulting in Liberalism and Zionism winning.

    Nah, he who has the gold has the power. The New Yoik and London international bankers had the gold and were calling the shots. They were the main winners. It was they who destroyed Europe, and stunk up the US in the process, and they’re still doing it.

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    • Agree: Carroll Price
    • Disagree: polskijoe
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  165. snag says:
    @anarchyst
    If a country were hell-bent on genocide, WHY WOULD IT KEEP RECORDS?? WHY would it build “camps” hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away with sanitary facilities, housing, medical, recreational and other ancillary facilities? Would it not have been easier to just “eliminate” them without going through all of this trouble? Why would they expend massive effort on logistical movement utilizing their limited energy resources if the goal was extermination? Things do not "add up"...

    Something BIG “stinks” in this whole jewish “holocaust ™” deal. It is no secret that jewish Zionists made “deals” with the German government in order to make life “uncomfortable” for jewish Germans. In fact, it was jewish Zionist leaders who first proposed that all jews wear the "yellow Star of David" armband so that they could be easily identified.

    The establishment of a “homeland” along with the 6,000,000 figure was a Zionist “dream” since the 1800s. What better way to encourage “emigration” to a foreign land than to make things difficult for the “cream of German society” (jews)?? The TRUTH about the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” is out . . .

    The so-called jewish “holocaust ™” has been turned into a de-facto “religion” in which no deviation from orthodoxy is permitted. In fact, in most European countries, independent investigation into jewish “holocaust ™” truths is strictly forbidden under pain of fines and imprisonment. In the USA, things are not quite as bad, only job loss and personal and professional destruction at the hands of those of the “tribe” that FEAR the real truth of the jewish “holocaust ™” being exposed is evident. TRUTH CANNOT BE USED AS A DEFENSE OR ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE IN THE "KANGAROO COURTS" THAT PROSECUTE THOSE WHO DARE TO INVESTIGATE THIS HISTORICAL EVENT. A question for you "holocaust ™" promoters--why are there laws that criminalize the search for truth??

    When the truth about this historical event comes out, it will change much of the world’s perception about those that are using this event as a “cash cow” that “keeps on giving”. . . “there’s NO business like “SHOAH business”.
    Jewish complicity in this event is carefully “covered up”.

    A good example of present-day censorship is the fate that awaits those that dare question “official” jewish “holocaust” orthodoxy. Most European countries have criminalized ANY line of thought that deviates from the “official” jewish “holocaust” story. WHY?? In fact, TRUTH is no defense when it comes to “all things holocaust”. Ask noted WW2 researcher David Irving, who was forced to recant TRUTH in order to avoid punishment. . .

    If people only knew of the planning that took place (among those of the “chosen”) to engineer the jewish “holocaust”, there would be a pogrom of massive size. You see, the jewish “holocaust” was necessary in order to force the establishment of a jewish state. In this case, the ENDS justified the MEANS. There have been many “holocausts” of much greater misery throughout human history, yet the jewish “holocaust” is the only one that counts . . .

    Look at the “commercialization of the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” while the much larger communist (true) holocaust is conveniently forgotten. To assure a continuing supply of jewish “holocaust ™” “survivors”, jews are tattooing their ATM (oops, I mean “camp” numbers) on their children and grandchildren. In addition, jewish psychologists have come up with a new concept, and "disease"--"holocaust ™ " "transference syndrome. You see, children and grandchildren of jewish "holocaust ™" survivors are infected with this "disease" and should also be considered "holocaust ™" survivors, eligible for "holocaust ™" reparations".

    Since the jews declared war on Germany in 1933 (yes, 1933), the Germans had no choice but to complete the Zionist plan of marginalizing German jews (to say the least).. This fulfilled the Zionist plan of forcing German jews to emigrate to Palestine while making the world grant jews a “homeland”–Israel. It is interesting to note that the German boycott of jewish businesses lasted for one day, whil the jewish boycott (actually the jews' declaration of war on Germany) started in 1933 and lasted until the summation of WW2.

    Zionists have been predicting a jewish “homeland for the last two-hundred years while predicting a “holocaust ™” of 6 million for the same amount of time. The ACTUAL number of non-combatant deaths in the European theater of operations is approximately 731,000, NOT 6 million (official International Red Cross figures).

    Regarding that “holocaust ™” “showplace” Auschwitz, there are engineering inconsistencies in the design of the so-called “gas chambers”. The doors are not of a gas-tight design; it would have been impossible to retrieve the bodies, and there is no means to ventilate the rooms after the so-called “gassing” took place”. There is a "gas chamber" chimney that is not connected to anything. From an engineering standpoint, these are very serious errors that would have caused the deaths of the “operators” of these supposed “gas chambers”. As Germans were excellent engineers, it is difficult to observe the glaring engineering errors that presently exist in these "camps".

    American execution expert, Fred Leuchter travelled to Auschwitz, surreptitiously obtained samples from the purported “gas chambers”, had them tested and published his results. The absence of methylene blue in ALL of the samples, save one, was PROOF that the “gas chambers” did not exist. The one positive sample was taken from a room used to disinfect clothing. In fact, the "chimney" for the supposed "gas chamber" does not connect to anything.

    Mr. Leuchter’s was rewarded for his search for TRUTH by his professional and personal character assassination by those of the “tribe”. He lost all of his federal and state contracts, and was prosecuted under an obscure Massachusetts “law” for “practicing engineering without a license”–a law which had never been used before or since. . .

    It is no secret that after WW2, the Soviets attempted to “create” the “death camps” for propaganda purposes. Yes, there was extreme deprivation and suffering–many people perished. The prime cause of death was typhus. As allied bombings destroyed most of the infrastructure, typhus was at epidemic levels. THIS is what caused the massive amounts of human deaths . . .NOT gassing.

    It is interesting to note that, before the camps were "liberated" by the "allies", the camp occupants chose to flee with the German troops, rather than be "liberated" by the Russian "allies".

    I urge those "holocaust ™" believers to check these things out for yourselves--IF YOU DARE. You will not like what you find...

    Remember those famous lampshades of human skin in Stutthof, or soap of jewish flesh … No evidence Crap. I remember a sign 4 million gassed in Birkenau today is 900.000 and slipping down.

    Yad Vashem have a list of 3 million victims of German persecution with some names counted twice that means more than 3 million are MIA – In 2007 Germans opened their (meticulous) archives for scholars to study, the list in Yad Vashem haven’t changed and for what I know there’s no interest on their side to start digging and prove that they’re right and the rest of us who dare to contest that 6 millions their are wrong.

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  166. iffen says:
    @Beckow
    Well, it is relative. Britain dislikes a lot of other countries, so superficially you will also find anti-German expressions. (I once mentioned the term 'Irish Express' to a Brit - logistics company - and he promptly called it an oxymoron.) I am talking about the national policy - the stuff that comes out of British universities, media, government.

    The national policy (of both US and UK) is skewed towards Germany. They are in Nato together, so it is understandable. There has been quite a bit of well funded effort (books, lectures, etc...) to shift some of the blame for WWII from Germany, it is also always referred to as 'Nazis', not Germans.

    Whenever Germans show some independent thought, the WWII is used to bludgeon them back into obedience. But as long as they are loyal, the downplaying and relativisation continues. In general, British an American understanding of WWII is bizarrely false, but I don't want to get into that - complex and long topic.

    it is also always referred to as ‘Nazis’, not Germans.

    Like people are always saying Bolsheviks, commies, Soviets, etc. rather than …

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    • Replies: @Beckow
    people are always saying Bolsheviks, commies, Soviets, etc. rather than …

    True, those damn Latvians...

    Today, finally clarity rules. No more euphemisms, it is the evil Russians all the way. I suppose, it is a kind of progress...

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  167. It isn’t too hard to figure out, just look at what they’re doing to America, with the help of traitors and dual citizens, slowly turning America into Palestine. Yeah, we’ve noticed the police state creep. Taking away our rights.
    Look at what they’re doing everywhere they can slither in, death, poverty and destruction follow, those AIPAC rallies don’t help, that just tells all Americans, EXACTLY who is pulling the strings, so we know exactly who to blame, no doubt about it.
    and controlling the Federal Reserve, Wall St., MIC… America has been going down fast since the creation of Israel, so its not too hard to connect the dots.
    Its pretty clear 9/11 was another Israeli/CIA/MIC job, just like USS Liberty and many others, Israels entire history has been built on lies, false flags, genocide, ethnic cleansing, hatred of everything..
    Keep calling us names though, that’ll work. I will admit, you had a lot of folks fooled for a long time, but the mass murder of Christians in Iraq, Syria have woken even the dumbest up. You idiots had it so nice for a long time, leeching off everyone else, the end of all that is near. Trust me. You’re a fish out of water now. No going back.

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  168. AaronB says:
    @Max Denken
    Interesting point, but you have to resist making a continuity from some 3500 years ago to now. You are right about the unique fanaticism of the original Jewish religion, and one might throw in a couple genocides there as well. However --and that's one of two ancient reasons why Jews are counted within the concept of Western civilization -- they were the first to outlaw human sacrifice. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the mythical description of that. And the other reason is that Christianity is a direct descendant of that Judaism, though not of the rabbinical-Talmudic one that has superseded the old times' religion for the Jews. And among the features of Judaism that have passed on to Christianity is that very fanaticism, going back to the third century and first codified in Nicea in 325 AD. Think wiping out whole groups of people, from old Saxons through the Prussians and other Northeast European pagan peoples, on to the Cathars, witches at the stake, Inquisition etc. The Roman state religion had had nothing of that fanaticism, that claim on an exclusive lock on the truth. So its' no longer correct to ascribe the features you do to the Jewish religion alone. And don't even get me started about Islam...

    Sure, but there’s also some level of continuity, and Talmudism clearly is a continuation of certain strands on the Old Testament.

    The way I see it, Old Testament Judaism towards the end reached a level of wisdom found among the Greeks and Indians. Some of the prophets, and Kohelet and the other wisdom books, transcend the old Jewish egotism and materialism.

    Talmudism revived the pure egotistical strain and adapted it to the exile and it’s new challenges.

    Were Jews the first to abolish human sacrifice? The Bible as we have it now was compiled, I think, around the 8th or 7th centuries BC, after the Babylonian exile. Were Egyptians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Mycebaeans, practicing human sacrifice so late?

    I’m not sure, but I don’t think so. But if they were, I’m happy to give them credit for it.

    And you’re right, many unpleasant and objectionable Jewish elements bled into Christianity – even the pernicious notion of a chosen people, a New Israel – and the protestants revived the Jewish strain in a serious way.

    The Spanish extermination of entire higher civilizations is very much in the Jewish spirit also.

    Unfortunately, I regard Christianity as irredeemably tainted, although I deeply admire the original message of Jesus Christ, which I regard as essentially Indian wisdom.

    Islam also has a serious egotistical side, but the Sufi strain redeems it, and even mainstream Islam has attractive features.

    I’m certainly not suggesting egotism is to be found only in Judaism – far from it. Egotism is a human perennial, and creeps in everywhere. I merely think Judaism is the purest expression of egotism that the world has yet seen. But if Judaism vanished tomorrow, some philosophy just like it would have to arise. Pure egotism is one possible position in the spectrum of positions, and many people will always be found who will fill that niche.

    Just like the poor will always be with us, as Jesus said, so will egotism. It’s almost accidental that a people called “Jews ” are the ones filling that niche in actuality.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Kohelet
     
    How the heck did that make it into some versions of the bible? Was some editor drunk or something? It doesn't seem to fit with most of the other stuff there, and though I'm no bible thumper, I re read it often. Love it! Fascinating stuff.
    , @Max Denken
    Human sacrifice is a whole different and very interesting subject. I am no expert, and if I were a PhD in cultural anthropology you could not trust me anyway, because there is hardly an area more tainted with Cultural Marxism than that one. But I'll tell you what I think, based on sporadic reading in the subject.

    You area a little off about the date span of writing up the Bible; the Babylonian exile was in mid-6th century BC, and that's the time when they started compiling the Talmud; the Books had already been written sometime before 1000 and 700 BC. But remember that Genesis and other such books were the writing up of oral history that was much more ancient, maybe 1500 - 1800 years older. So even though we have no proof that it's factually true, the very fact that such tales had persisted for so long is proof that they contained a kernel of truth. One can use the same argument to claim with certainty that the historical Christ existed, even though we have no historical "proof." The very fact that the Gospels were written -- again, based on oral history -- indicates that the power of that oral tradition was so great that it could not have been an invention.

    As to how long human sacrifice existed and when did it cease in the actual history of the ME, I don't know without further study. But I can tell you that the early prophets in the Bible, i.e. before the Babylonian exile, are full of casting abomination on the goyim (an actual Biblical word) for their humans sacrifices, the cults of Baal and Ishtar etc., and warn the Israelites again and again not to relapse into those ways. And that's to me an indication that humans sacrifice had been proscribed
    for Jews long before that practice ceased among the surrounding peoples. Not to mention the Celts, the Vikings, the proto-Slavs etc...
    , @Art
    AaronB -- do you have definition of Egotism --- thanks -- Art
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  169. @Tyrion 2
    All those criticisms apply to Israel's neighbours in the Middle East many times more.

    All those criticisms apply to Israel’s neighbours in the Middle East many times more.

    Did you miss these, or do you really believe that these criticisms apply to Israel’s neighbours in the Middle East many times more?

    … have a death grip on the media, on schooling, on our foreign and domestic policies, and on our government to say nothing of the dollars wrung out of the most bankrupt nation on Earth.

    Can you name any?

    Man, I’m learning a lot of kool stuff that I heretofore never dreamed of! Damn, yer good!

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    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    No, I ignored those. Your paranoid schizophrenia makes me feel awkward.
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  170. iffen says:
    @Max Denken
    As you could infer from the essay above, I am hardly an apologist for the Jewish view of the world. And I can quote the items you mentioned, and raise you some. Yet you cannot trace these people with your brush and than pass that brush over the entire Jewish people, throughout their entire history at that. Also, no critique of Jews, even the harshest, excuses pitiful attempts to rewrite history, to make Hitler into the good guy and the Third Reich into an innocent victim of Jewish perfidy. That is even more insane than the rabbis' quotes.

    History is complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, in the JQ area too.

    As you could infer from the essay above

    Such confidence in the commentariat is unwarranted.

    History is complex. There is no black and white.

    I live in Alabama and our history has been black and white for over two hundred years.

    BTW, excellent article. I don’t know what gets into R. Unz sometimes.

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  171. @Max Denken
    As you could infer from the essay above, I am hardly an apologist for the Jewish view of the world. And I can quote the items you mentioned, and raise you some. Yet you cannot trace these people with your brush and than pass that brush over the entire Jewish people, throughout their entire history at that. Also, no critique of Jews, even the harshest, excuses pitiful attempts to rewrite history, to make Hitler into the good guy and the Third Reich into an innocent victim of Jewish perfidy. That is even more insane than the rabbis' quotes.

    History is complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, in the JQ area too.

    History is complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, in the JQ area too.

    Maybe you should take your own advice.

    Most of the anti-Hitler rhetoric here is nothing but over the top Red propaganda and you have to know it.

    Do you have any idea of who financed all the bullshit that was going on a century ago?

    All this jaw- jaw about holocausts and what not annoys me to no end because none of it or the other finger pointing gets at the heart of the matter which is who was behind all of it.

    History is not always complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, and have the courage to ask questions and peek behind the curtain.

    History can be complex, but in this case it’s not as complex as it’s made out to be. Follow the Yellow Brick Road and peek behind the bushes along the way.

    Why, my fellow citizens, is there any man here or any woman, let me say is there any child here, who does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry…and the reason why some nations went into the war against Germany was that they thought Germany would get the commercial advantage of them. The seed of the jealousy, the seed of the deep-seated hatred was hot, successful commercial and industrial rivalry…
    This war, in its inception was a commercial and industrial war. It was not a political war.

    -Woodrow Wilson, Address at the Coliseum in St. Louis, Missouri, September 5, 1919

    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=117365

    On occasion even a rotten politician spills the beans. WW2 was, as Churchill said, both unnecessary, and an extension of WW1. Connect the dots.

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    • Replies: @Wally
    A rare, righteous Jew speaks:

    "Revisionism has the general function of bringing historical truth to a public that had been drugged by wartime lies and propaganda."

    Now revisionism teaches us that this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth. If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler's Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions, about the current World War III version of the same myth. Nothing would stop the current headlong flight to war faster, or more surely cause people to begin to reason about foreign affairs once again, after a long orgy of emotion and cliché.

    For the same myth is now based on the same old fallacies. And this is seen by the increasing use that the Cold Warriors have been making of the "Munich myth": the continually repeated charge that it was the "appeasement" of the "aggressor" at Munich that "fed" his "aggression" (again, the Fu Manchu, or Wild Beast, comparison), and that caused the "aggressor," drunk with his conquests, to launch World War II. This Munich myth has been used as one of the leading arguments against any sort of rational negotiations with the Communist nations, and the stigmatizing of even the most harmless search for agreement as "appeasement." It is for this reason that A.J.P. Taylor's magnificent Origins of the Second World War received probably its most distorted and frenetic review in the pages of National Review.

    The task of revisionism has been to penetrate beneath these superficialities and appearances to the stark realities underneath — realities which show, certainly in this century, the United States, Great Britain, and France — the three great "democracies" — to be worse than any other three countries in fomenting and waging aggressive war. Realization of this truth would be of incalculable importance on the current scene.

    For revisionism, in the final analysis, is based on truth and rationality. Truth and rationality are always the first victims in any war frenzy; and they are, therefore, once again an extremely rare commodity on today's "market." Revisionism brings to the artificial frenzy of daily events and day-to-day propaganda, the cool but in the last analysis glorious light of historical truth. Such truth is almost desperately needed in today's world."
    - Murray Rothbard, Review of The Origins of the Second World War, 1966
    http://mises.org/daily/2592
     

    www.codoh.com
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  172. Seraphim says:
    @Max Denken
    Interesting point, but you have to resist making a continuity from some 3500 years ago to now. You are right about the unique fanaticism of the original Jewish religion, and one might throw in a couple genocides there as well. However --and that's one of two ancient reasons why Jews are counted within the concept of Western civilization -- they were the first to outlaw human sacrifice. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the mythical description of that. And the other reason is that Christianity is a direct descendant of that Judaism, though not of the rabbinical-Talmudic one that has superseded the old times' religion for the Jews. And among the features of Judaism that have passed on to Christianity is that very fanaticism, going back to the third century and first codified in Nicea in 325 AD. Think wiping out whole groups of people, from old Saxons through the Prussians and other Northeast European pagan peoples, on to the Cathars, witches at the stake, Inquisition etc. The Roman state religion had had nothing of that fanaticism, that claim on an exclusive lock on the truth. So its' no longer correct to ascribe the features you do to the Jewish religion alone. And don't even get me started about Islam...

    “And among the features of Judaism that have passed on to Christianity is that very fanaticism, going back to the third century and first codified in Nicea in 325 AD”.

    Es ist die Loslösung vom Denken (Undenken).
    Approximate English translation : bullshitting.

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    • Replies: @Max Denken
    You are just depositing garbage on things you don't like. Your quoting German indicates that you may read German. Read up on Arianism, on how the German warrior class was all-Arian, and how come Arianism ceased to exist. Once you have digested that, I can recommend further topics of study. For the beginner you are, I can recommend, in English, Philip Johnson's "History of Christianity." And do hold that elevated self esteem -- Seraphim??? -- in check.
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  173. Mulegino1 says:
    @polskijoe
    You like to troll and spam your fake website: so let me return the favor...

    Where is the proof millions of Germans died in WW2?

    Where are the bodies?

    Why do Germans send reperations to Jews, but not Poles or Russians or Greeks?
    Why did German collaborate with Zionists?
    Why did Germany send commies to Russia?
    Why Does Germany still attack Poland to this day?
    Why does Germany favor Muslims and Jews over Slavs?


    No name calling...

    sodoh.com

    I would say that there is indeed proof that hundreds of thousands of German, French and Italian civilians were indeed incinerated by the RAF and Allied air forces. They never made a secret about their intent and openly boasted about it in newsreels and their own propaganda publications. There is plenty of authentic video footage of Dresden burning- not to mention of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    Also, the Soviet propaganda- a la Ilya Ehrenburg- openly called upon the Red Army soldiers to kill Germans. Little distinction was made between civilians and members of the Wehrmacht. The mass rapes of German women by the Red Army were likewise well documented.

    The numbers of German victims may well be exaggerated, however.

    Free French General Juin did give free reign to the Moroccan troops to rape the women in the villages around Monte Cassino and this has not been forgotten to this day in Italy. This is another Allied war crime that has been glossed over, just like the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff, the Goya, and the Cape Arcona.

    On the other hand, there is no physical evidence that the Germans indiscriminately slaughtered Slavs and Jews and there is no authentic documentary foundation for this. The Germans even gave p.o.w. status to many of the members of the Polish Home Army captured after the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising. And one can judge for oneself whether the Polish p.o.w.’s at Dachau “liberated” by the US Army look mistreated or ill fed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    " This is another Allied war crime that has been glossed over, just like the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff, "

    Alas not so simple as it seems
    Cajus Bekker, 'Flucht übers Meer, Ostsee Deutsches Schicksal 1945', 1964, 1999, Augsburg
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  174. @AaronB
    Sure, but there's also some level of continuity, and Talmudism clearly is a continuation of certain strands on the Old Testament.

    The way I see it, Old Testament Judaism towards the end reached a level of wisdom found among the Greeks and Indians. Some of the prophets, and Kohelet and the other wisdom books, transcend the old Jewish egotism and materialism.

    Talmudism revived the pure egotistical strain and adapted it to the exile and it's new challenges.

    Were Jews the first to abolish human sacrifice? The Bible as we have it now was compiled, I think, around the 8th or 7th centuries BC, after the Babylonian exile. Were Egyptians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Mycebaeans, practicing human sacrifice so late?

    I'm not sure, but I don't think so. But if they were, I'm happy to give them credit for it.

    And you're right, many unpleasant and objectionable Jewish elements bled into Christianity - even the pernicious notion of a chosen people, a New Israel - and the protestants revived the Jewish strain in a serious way.

    The Spanish extermination of entire higher civilizations is very much in the Jewish spirit also.

    Unfortunately, I regard Christianity as irredeemably tainted, although I deeply admire the original message of Jesus Christ, which I regard as essentially Indian wisdom.

    Islam also has a serious egotistical side, but the Sufi strain redeems it, and even mainstream Islam has attractive features.

    I'm certainly not suggesting egotism is to be found only in Judaism - far from it. Egotism is a human perennial, and creeps in everywhere. I merely think Judaism is the purest expression of egotism that the world has yet seen. But if Judaism vanished tomorrow, some philosophy just like it would have to arise. Pure egotism is one possible position in the spectrum of positions, and many people will always be found who will fill that niche.

    Just like the poor will always be with us, as Jesus said, so will egotism. It's almost accidental that a people called "Jews " are the ones filling that niche in actuality.

    Kohelet

    How the heck did that make it into some versions of the bible? Was some editor drunk or something? It doesn’t seem to fit with most of the other stuff there, and though I’m no bible thumper, I re read it often. Love it! Fascinating stuff.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    It might seem odd, but it's because beliefs and opinions aren't the main thing in Judaism, so you can play with a wide range of ideas. There is no "central message" you have to stick to. That same attitude permeates the Talmud.

    God chose Jews and made a deal with them - keep my laws, and you'll get wealth and power. Beliefs aren't central.

    It's also why the Old Testament, while a national epic, doesn't bother to make the Jewish people look good, which on the face of it would seem very odd. Jacob, the father of Jews, is a slinking, deceitful coward, taking advantage of his provider brother in his moment of weakness. King David, the national hero, is without magnanimity or a large heart, he is vengeful over petty slights, full of unbridled lust, and sneakily sends loyal officers to death to get at his wife.

    The message is - being bad won't make you any less chosen. Jews often won't be seriously bothered when you point out bad Jewish behavior. They may regret it if they're good people, but it doesn't seriously affect their status in their own eyes.

    God deprives Jews of wealth and power if they don't keep his laws, that's all.

    At the same time, there obviously were and are noble Jews who were of a different spirit, and such Jews grew more numerous towards the end of Old Testament times, and some of their works are the prophets and wisdom books. There were also interesting communities of Jewish holy men and ascetics at that time. Things were more complex back then, before Talmudism.
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  175. @AaronB
    Sure, but there's also some level of continuity, and Talmudism clearly is a continuation of certain strands on the Old Testament.

    The way I see it, Old Testament Judaism towards the end reached a level of wisdom found among the Greeks and Indians. Some of the prophets, and Kohelet and the other wisdom books, transcend the old Jewish egotism and materialism.

    Talmudism revived the pure egotistical strain and adapted it to the exile and it's new challenges.

    Were Jews the first to abolish human sacrifice? The Bible as we have it now was compiled, I think, around the 8th or 7th centuries BC, after the Babylonian exile. Were Egyptians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Mycebaeans, practicing human sacrifice so late?

    I'm not sure, but I don't think so. But if they were, I'm happy to give them credit for it.

    And you're right, many unpleasant and objectionable Jewish elements bled into Christianity - even the pernicious notion of a chosen people, a New Israel - and the protestants revived the Jewish strain in a serious way.

    The Spanish extermination of entire higher civilizations is very much in the Jewish spirit also.

    Unfortunately, I regard Christianity as irredeemably tainted, although I deeply admire the original message of Jesus Christ, which I regard as essentially Indian wisdom.

    Islam also has a serious egotistical side, but the Sufi strain redeems it, and even mainstream Islam has attractive features.

    I'm certainly not suggesting egotism is to be found only in Judaism - far from it. Egotism is a human perennial, and creeps in everywhere. I merely think Judaism is the purest expression of egotism that the world has yet seen. But if Judaism vanished tomorrow, some philosophy just like it would have to arise. Pure egotism is one possible position in the spectrum of positions, and many people will always be found who will fill that niche.

    Just like the poor will always be with us, as Jesus said, so will egotism. It's almost accidental that a people called "Jews " are the ones filling that niche in actuality.

    Human sacrifice is a whole different and very interesting subject. I am no expert, and if I were a PhD in cultural anthropology you could not trust me anyway, because there is hardly an area more tainted with Cultural Marxism than that one. But I’ll tell you what I think, based on sporadic reading in the subject.

    You area a little off about the date span of writing up the Bible; the Babylonian exile was in mid-6th century BC, and that’s the time when they started compiling the Talmud; the Books had already been written sometime before 1000 and 700 BC. But remember that Genesis and other such books were the writing up of oral history that was much more ancient, maybe 1500 – 1800 years older. So even though we have no proof that it’s factually true, the very fact that such tales had persisted for so long is proof that they contained a kernel of truth. One can use the same argument to claim with certainty that the historical Christ existed, even though we have no historical “proof.” The very fact that the Gospels were written — again, based on oral history — indicates that the power of that oral tradition was so great that it could not have been an invention.

    As to how long human sacrifice existed and when did it cease in the actual history of the ME, I don’t know without further study. But I can tell you that the early prophets in the Bible, i.e. before the Babylonian exile, are full of casting abomination on the goyim (an actual Biblical word) for their humans sacrifices, the cults of Baal and Ishtar etc., and warn the Israelites again and again not to relapse into those ways. And that’s to me an indication that humans sacrifice had been proscribed
    for Jews long before that practice ceased among the surrounding peoples. Not to mention the Celts, the Vikings, the proto-Slavs etc…

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    I'm not entirely sure that's sound methodology.

    When the Bible was finally compiled, many things in the ancient books were likely altered, and many new things added that were pretending to be ancient. In other words, there was a large propogabda element to the whole affair.

    I believe it was Ezra who pretended to "discover" the books. Interestingly, it is said that when Ezra read out the new harsh covenant to the Jews, they wept bitter tears, suggesting this was new stuff for them.

    It seems entirely possible that at the time Ezra and his scribes did their compiling, the leading civilizations were abandoning human sacrifice. Jews, wishing to polish their image, may well have pretended to have ancient books claiming they did so earlier than anyone else.

    That would be consistent with a notable Jewish pattern - many Jews like to claim Aristotle and Plato got their ideas from Jews, for instance.

    Claiming priority in whatever is perceived as excellent is a well established Jewish habit, which is consistent with high levels of egotism.

    In fact, egotism pretty much guarantees it.
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  176. iffen says:
    @Max Denken
    Interesting point, but you have to resist making a continuity from some 3500 years ago to now. You are right about the unique fanaticism of the original Jewish religion, and one might throw in a couple genocides there as well. However --and that's one of two ancient reasons why Jews are counted within the concept of Western civilization -- they were the first to outlaw human sacrifice. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the mythical description of that. And the other reason is that Christianity is a direct descendant of that Judaism, though not of the rabbinical-Talmudic one that has superseded the old times' religion for the Jews. And among the features of Judaism that have passed on to Christianity is that very fanaticism, going back to the third century and first codified in Nicea in 325 AD. Think wiping out whole groups of people, from old Saxons through the Prussians and other Northeast European pagan peoples, on to the Cathars, witches at the stake, Inquisition etc. The Roman state religion had had nothing of that fanaticism, that claim on an exclusive lock on the truth. So its' no longer correct to ascribe the features you do to the Jewish religion alone. And don't even get me started about Islam...

    Jews are counted within the concept of Western civilization

    Who’s doing the counting?

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/03/06/on-the-semiotics-of-judeo-christian-as-a-misdirection/

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  177. @Seraphim
    "And among the features of Judaism that have passed on to Christianity is that very fanaticism, going back to the third century and first codified in Nicea in 325 AD".

    Es ist die Loslösung vom Denken (Undenken).
    Approximate English translation : bullshitting.

    You are just depositing garbage on things you don’t like. Your quoting German indicates that you may read German. Read up on Arianism, on how the German warrior class was all-Arian, and how come Arianism ceased to exist. Once you have digested that, I can recommend further topics of study. For the beginner you are, I can recommend, in English, Philip Johnson’s “History of Christianity.” And do hold that elevated self esteem — Seraphim??? — in check.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Are you sure that it is not PAUL Johnson's "A History of Christianity" ['First published in 1976, Paul Johnson’s exceptional study of Christianity has been loved and widely hailed for its intensive research, writing, and magnitude—“a tour de force, one of the most ambitious surveys of the history of Christianity ever attempted and perhaps the most radical” (New York Review of Books)]?

    "Johnson C. Philip (born 3 April 1954) is an Indian physicist and Christian theologian... one of the most prominent contemporary figures in the Indian Brethren movement and also in Christian apologetics and creationism". Another evangelical bullshitter.

    May I recommend you (obviously an outsider) some serious studies about Christianity? Say, "The Cambridge History of Christianity"(9 vol.)?

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  178. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    And we know, presumably, that this term has been used in German national and provincial media
     
    How do you know that? Are there studies documenting this is a widespread term in German media? Because I can't recall ever having read it, certainly not in the sense that it was claimed the extermination camps were somehow under Polish control. If the term is used at all, in most cases it will be due to thoughtlessness, not deliberate obfuscation, and merely in a geographical sense.
    Granted, the Our mothers, our fathers tv series was pretty questionable in some parts and Polish protests were justifed. But there is no organized German campaign to shift responsibility for the Holocaust onto Poland. This exists only in the imagination of Polish right-wingers.

    Germany has not paid reparations even for that, though between 1952 and 2017 it paid so many billions in Deutsche marks and euros in so many reparations agreements with the State of Israel and Jewish Holocaust survivors,

     

    Yes, but Israel didn't get one quarter of pre-war German territory, plus the satisfaction of taking revenge by ethnically cleansing a few million Germans. Bit one-sided to leave this "detail" unmentioned.

    Germany is contemporarily so nice and concessionary to both Jews and Polish. That the only thing left is for them to attack each other.

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  179. Beckow says:
    @iffen
    it is also always referred to as ‘Nazis’, not Germans.

    Like people are always saying Bolsheviks, commies, Soviets, etc. rather than ...

    people are always saying Bolsheviks, commies, Soviets, etc. rather than …

    True, those damn Latvians…

    Today, finally clarity rules. No more euphemisms, it is the evil Russians all the way. I suppose, it is a kind of progress…

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  180. Maryles’s article contains subjective assertions that could be challenged, but I’ll focus on just one that has the appearance of being more objective: “Except for the righteous gentiles among them, the Poles were perhaps the most eager participants of all nationalities in helping Nazis send Jews to the death camps of any other country. Just about every Polish Jew who survived the Holocaust–that I have ever spoken to–has made this claim.”

    Just about every Jew who survived the holocaust also made claims of seeing thousands of Jews killed in “gas chambers”. A claim that has since been proven false by independent investigators who found no evidence homicidal gas chambers existed at any of the work camps.

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  181. Wally says:
    @jacques sheete

    History is complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, in the JQ area too.
     
    Maybe you should take your own advice.

    Most of the anti-Hitler rhetoric here is nothing but over the top Red propaganda and you have to know it.

    Do you have any idea of who financed all the bullshit that was going on a century ago?

    All this jaw- jaw about holocausts and what not annoys me to no end because none of it or the other finger pointing gets at the heart of the matter which is who was behind all of it.

    History is not always complex. There is no black and white. Deal with it honestly, and have the courage to ask questions and peek behind the curtain.

    History can be complex, but in this case it's not as complex as it's made out to be. Follow the Yellow Brick Road and peek behind the bushes along the way.


    Why, my fellow citizens, is there any man here or any woman, let me say is there any child here, who does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry…and the reason why some nations went into the war against Germany was that they thought Germany would get the commercial advantage of them. The seed of the jealousy, the seed of the deep-seated hatred was hot, successful commercial and industrial rivalry…
    This war, in its inception was a commercial and industrial war. It was not a political war.

    -Woodrow Wilson, Address at the Coliseum in St. Louis, Missouri, September 5, 1919
    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=117365
     

    On occasion even a rotten politician spills the beans. WW2 was, as Churchill said, both unnecessary, and an extension of WW1. Connect the dots.

    A rare, righteous Jew speaks:

    “Revisionism has the general function of bringing historical truth to a public that had been drugged by wartime lies and propaganda.”

    Now revisionism teaches us that this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth. If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler’s Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions, about the current World War III version of the same myth. Nothing would stop the current headlong flight to war faster, or more surely cause people to begin to reason about foreign affairs once again, after a long orgy of emotion and cliché.

    For the same myth is now based on the same old fallacies. And this is seen by the increasing use that the Cold Warriors have been making of the “Munich myth”: the continually repeated charge that it was the “appeasement” of the “aggressor” at Munich that “fed” his “aggression” (again, the Fu Manchu, or Wild Beast, comparison), and that caused the “aggressor,” drunk with his conquests, to launch World War II. This Munich myth has been used as one of the leading arguments against any sort of rational negotiations with the Communist nations, and the stigmatizing of even the most harmless search for agreement as “appeasement.” It is for this reason that A.J.P. Taylor’s magnificent Origins of the Second World War received probably its most distorted and frenetic review in the pages of National Review.

    The task of revisionism has been to penetrate beneath these superficialities and appearances to the stark realities underneath — realities which show, certainly in this century, the United States, Great Britain, and France — the three great “democracies” — to be worse than any other three countries in fomenting and waging aggressive war. Realization of this truth would be of incalculable importance on the current scene.

    For revisionism, in the final analysis, is based on truth and rationality. Truth and rationality are always the first victims in any war frenzy; and they are, therefore, once again an extremely rare commodity on today’s “market.” Revisionism brings to the artificial frenzy of daily events and day-to-day propaganda, the cool but in the last analysis glorious light of historical truth. Such truth is almost desperately needed in today’s world.”
    - Murray Rothbard, Review of The Origins of the Second World War, 1966

    http://mises.org/daily/2592

    http://www.codoh.com

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Taylor.
    Indeed, when one reads detailed accounts of the attack on Poland, the occupation of Denmark and Norway, the attack and occupation of the Netherlands, Belgium, and France, one sees that Germany was not at all prepared for war.
    The Blitz krieg was necessity, Germany was unable to wage a long war, as we see how the attack on Russia petered out.
    Hitler's big mistake was to swallow the bait of the Polish provocations.
    Von Ribbentrop had assured him that GB and France would do nothing, as indeed they did, for a long time.
    The attack and occupation of France was a desperate attempt to force GB to make peace.
    The attack on Russia also was the consequence of having attacked and divided Poland, no longer a buffer state between Germany and the USSR, as Molotov made abundantly clear during his visit to Berlin.
    Molotov indicated that Hitler now was at the mercy of Stalin.
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  182. AaronB says:
    @jacques sheete

    Kohelet
     
    How the heck did that make it into some versions of the bible? Was some editor drunk or something? It doesn't seem to fit with most of the other stuff there, and though I'm no bible thumper, I re read it often. Love it! Fascinating stuff.

    It might seem odd, but it’s because beliefs and opinions aren’t the main thing in Judaism, so you can play with a wide range of ideas. There is no “central message” you have to stick to. That same attitude permeates the Talmud.

    God chose Jews and made a deal with them – keep my laws, and you’ll get wealth and power. Beliefs aren’t central.

    It’s also why the Old Testament, while a national epic, doesn’t bother to make the Jewish people look good, which on the face of it would seem very odd. Jacob, the father of Jews, is a slinking, deceitful coward, taking advantage of his provider brother in his moment of weakness. King David, the national hero, is without magnanimity or a large heart, he is vengeful over petty slights, full of unbridled lust, and sneakily sends loyal officers to death to get at his wife.

    The message is – being bad won’t make you any less chosen. Jews often won’t be seriously bothered when you point out bad Jewish behavior. They may regret it if they’re good people, but it doesn’t seriously affect their status in their own eyes.

    God deprives Jews of wealth and power if they don’t keep his laws, that’s all.

    At the same time, there obviously were and are noble Jews who were of a different spirit, and such Jews grew more numerous towards the end of Old Testament times, and some of their works are the prophets and wisdom books. There were also interesting communities of Jewish holy men and ascetics at that time. Things were more complex back then, before Talmudism.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    God chose Jews and made a deal with them – keep my laws, and you’ll get wealth and power. Beliefs aren’t central.
     

    God deprives Jews of wealth and power if they don’t keep his laws, that’s all.
     
    Interesting. I've long ago deduced that, yet I've never heard anyone else put things that way. I also find it interesting that those deals don't apply to Jews only; similar wisdom can be found in other ancient cultures too.

    Jews often won’t be seriously bothered when you point out bad Jewish behavior.
     
    I know and work with a lot of what I consider "good" Jews, and as you say, they don't seem to get bothered by that. In fact, they seem to think it a compliment. They can't suppress a knowing smile, then they clam up.

    Thanks for sharing.

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  183. @Wally
    Well, governments worldwide said that witchcraft was fact, courts proved it, there were "eyewitnesses", "confessions", & "documents" galore.

    But like the alleged '6M Jews, 5M others & gas chambers', there was / is no proof.

    You're going through cognitive dissonance. You'll be fine.
    All Revisionists are former Believers.


    And why do so many want '6M Jews & 5M others' to be dead?
    Jews in particular should be elated to know that 6M of their brethren were not murdered.

    www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here: http://forum.codoh.com

    As my comment notes —

    Germany and Poland both grant out that Jews German and Polish were targeted. I think you will have to take up your complaint with them.

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  184. AaronB says:
    @Max Denken
    Human sacrifice is a whole different and very interesting subject. I am no expert, and if I were a PhD in cultural anthropology you could not trust me anyway, because there is hardly an area more tainted with Cultural Marxism than that one. But I'll tell you what I think, based on sporadic reading in the subject.

    You area a little off about the date span of writing up the Bible; the Babylonian exile was in mid-6th century BC, and that's the time when they started compiling the Talmud; the Books had already been written sometime before 1000 and 700 BC. But remember that Genesis and other such books were the writing up of oral history that was much more ancient, maybe 1500 - 1800 years older. So even though we have no proof that it's factually true, the very fact that such tales had persisted for so long is proof that they contained a kernel of truth. One can use the same argument to claim with certainty that the historical Christ existed, even though we have no historical "proof." The very fact that the Gospels were written -- again, based on oral history -- indicates that the power of that oral tradition was so great that it could not have been an invention.

    As to how long human sacrifice existed and when did it cease in the actual history of the ME, I don't know without further study. But I can tell you that the early prophets in the Bible, i.e. before the Babylonian exile, are full of casting abomination on the goyim (an actual Biblical word) for their humans sacrifices, the cults of Baal and Ishtar etc., and warn the Israelites again and again not to relapse into those ways. And that's to me an indication that humans sacrifice had been proscribed
    for Jews long before that practice ceased among the surrounding peoples. Not to mention the Celts, the Vikings, the proto-Slavs etc...

    I’m not entirely sure that’s sound methodology.

    When the Bible was finally compiled, many things in the ancient books were likely altered, and many new things added that were pretending to be ancient. In other words, there was a large propogabda element to the whole affair.

    I believe it was Ezra who pretended to “discover” the books. Interestingly, it is said that when Ezra read out the new harsh covenant to the Jews, they wept bitter tears, suggesting this was new stuff for them.

    It seems entirely possible that at the time Ezra and his scribes did their compiling, the leading civilizations were abandoning human sacrifice. Jews, wishing to polish their image, may well have pretended to have ancient books claiming they did so earlier than anyone else.

    That would be consistent with a notable Jewish pattern – many Jews like to claim Aristotle and Plato got their ideas from Jews, for instance.

    Claiming priority in whatever is perceived as excellent is a well established Jewish habit, which is consistent with high levels of egotism.

    In fact, egotism pretty much guarantees it.

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    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @Max Denken
    Interesting; I am not sure. May be worth finding a reliable book about that. Something in Joseph Campbell? As to the Jewish-Greek thing, it goes back at least to Alexander's times, with hate on both sides... I think that a good way to look at our civilization, including a check on the "bad" stuff inherited from Judaism, e.g., at least in my opinion, the stuff from Genesis 26 about absolute dominion over every living and growing thing on Earth -- so different from the Nature-oriented pantheism of the proto-Europeans -- is to bury the concept "Judeo-Christian and call it "Europagan - Greek- Roman - Judeo-Christian" civilization.
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  185. utu says:

    I decided to rain little bit on this Polish parade. Just because of very unreflective and propagandistic nature of author’s article.

    Poland was the only country in German-occupied Europe where there was neither a collaborationist government

    Germany did not really try very hard to recruit quislings in Poland. Which is too bad for Poland. If Poland was lucky like French to have Marechal Petain and had more sovereignty there would be much less unnecessary slaughter in Poland. And probably it would be better for Jews. Countries that collaborated with Germany like Hungary offered much better chance of Jewish survival. Only when Hungary decide to bail out Germany moved in and deportations of Jews began.

    There were over 400,000 Poles fighting the German occupiers in the largest underground army in Europe

    What do you mean by fighting? Apart form the senseless Warsaw Uprising there was not that much fighting? How many Germans were actually killed by Polish underground? And by starting Warsaw Uprising 200,000 civilians lost their lives. Yes, Germans killed them but it would not happened if it was not for the Polish underground. By how many days did Polish underground shorten the war? How many less Poles would lost their lives if the underground sat on their hands and just concentrated on enforcing law and education of young people instead of provoking Germans with futile opposition?

    And there was the largest army-in-exile fighting Hitler too: 250,000 men under British command,

    How many of these soldiers were recruited from German POW’s in 1943 and 1944? Shouldn’t they be counted as contributors to German war effort while in Wehrmacht?

    1.4 million Poles were hauled from their homes and forced to work as slaves in German factories and fields, not counting 300,000 military prisoners who were so forced also.

    Many Poles and even Jews volunteered to work in Germany as it was often safer there than in Poland and condition often were very good. Ida Fink and her sister did this because there she felt to be safer as Germans unlike Poles could not tell they were Jewish.

    The number of ethnic Poles murdered by the Germans was not “at least 1.9 million” as Frantzman’s article states, but 2.77 million, i.e. almost equivalent to the 2.7 to 2.9 number of murdered Polish Jews.

    These numbers are very questionable. Right after war it was decided that 3,000,ooo Polish Jews died and to this number 3,000,000 Poles were added. Nobody did any counting then. To large extent this was a political decision by Jakub Berman. There is a problem of other ethnicities like Ukrainians, Belorussian, Lithuanians and German who were Polish citizens who are often included in these numbers. The same victims are counted twice or trice because they are included in Ukrainia, Belorussian and so on claims.

    At least half a million of Polish citizens served in German are forces. Many of them were ethnically Germans but there was also a large group of Silesians and Kashubians who signed the Volksliste with the approval of Polish government in exile. Subsequently many Polish citizens died on Eastern front and wherever they fought against the allies. Are they counted as victims of German occupation as well?

    The physical damage to Poland at German hands, alone, stands at $850 billion–$1 trillion in 2018 dollars.

    Isn’t it kind of late for playing this kind of game? For whom Poland is playing this game? Is it possible that some Jewish Iago’s whispered this idea into Mr. Kaczynski’s ears? Is it possible that this is all about getting money to Israel and the world Jewry.

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    • Replies: @Max Denken
    You raise lots of points, and except for the easy ones I don't wish to argue them anymore than I do those of the Holocaust deniers. Life's short, writing is long and difficult; I need time for the latter, not for arguing.

    Let is suffice that there is a comprehensive institute in Poland charged with the studies of this, it's staffed by competent historians, they publish deep studies of all those issues, and I consider them authoritative. More here: https://ipn.gov.pl/en. But I'll treat briefly these:

    1. By fighting I mean fighting. There were clandestine units all over the country, engaged in sabotage, espionage, guerilla warfare etc. My father, BTW, part-Jewish, served in one of those, for three years in the deep forest hardly ever emerging.

    2. None of the soldiers fighting under the Polish Gov in Exile (London) were German POW. But many were former Soviet POW. Stalin, under pressure, let them go, and they made their way via Iran, the M.East, to North Africa and the UK.

    3. Your claim that "many" volunteered to work in Germany is flimsy. But somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million were grabbed off the street and out of their houses and transported to Germany compulsorily. In fact, the only reparations that Germany has paid to Poland was for the labor of these slaves.

    4. I am not sure where you got the number "half million" but have not time to research now so I'll let it stand. But to blame Poland for the acts of its Volksdeutsche population is to accuse Israel because some Palestinian Arab, Israeli citizen, blew up a bus with people in it. The collaboration of the Volksdeutsche with the German occupiers was a grave problem in all Eastern European countries that opposed the Germans. Many of the worst Nazi butchers, e.g. SS General Odilo Globocnik, belong to this category. Hence the usually-neglected aspect of the complaints about the post-war treatment of the German minority in countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. Much hate had been built toward those minorities during the war, and there were good reasons.
    , @snag
    To get some credibility here you're going to have to do little more than cut and paste holocaust museum crap especially personal recollections sprinkled with an imagination begging for pity.

    In holocaust museum Bielski Brothers are heroes but in reality they were a bunch of bandits, murderers and rapists. So much for credibility.

    Agree with Warsaw Uprising it was senseless and stupid the only ones who gained were the Soviets and jewish commies from Poland that took off to Soviet Union instead fight invading Germans.

    http://www.minelinks.com/war/bandits_1.html
    https://www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/prof-chodakiewicz-analyzes-the-koniuchy-massacre

    Once crook always crook.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/14/usa.secondworldwar

    Good article about Bielski Brothers.
    http://www.rp.pl/artykul/252550-Bielski-pomagal-Zydom--ale-tez-ich-wykorzystywal.html

    Same article in lousy google translation. When you see an empty space scroll down to continue
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.rp.pl/artykul/252550-Bielski-pomagal-Zydom--ale-tez-ich-wykorzystywal.html&prev=search

    Have a good one.

    , @jilles dykstra
    The Warsaw uprising was not senseless at all, in my opinion.
    I think it is comparable to De Gaulle marching into Paris at the head of troops after the 1944 invasion.
    To be liberated often is no liberation at all, how does one liberate itself of the liberators ?
    The biggest USA military base overseas is in Germany.
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  186. snag says:

    I have to add to that list of Jewish butchers above that Witold Pilecki one of the most respected and cherished Polish heros for fighting Germans and Soviets was murdered after the war by Julia Brystygier „Bloody Luna” the head of notorious Security Department. Henryk (Hersz) Podlaski the head prosecutor and Józef Rozanski (Goldberg) the head of Investigation Department all remembered for their sadism and cruelty.

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  187. Art says:
    @iffen
    You shouldn't try to dox people, Tyrion 2.

    And, there is something about your comments that give some anti-anti-Semites a second thoughts.

    iffen — Thanks much for your words to Tyrion 2 — he is a child. Peace — Art

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  188. aandrews says:
    @snag
    Concentrate and try to stay on the subject - In regard to Polish–Czechoslovak border conflicts it wouldn't hurt to refuel your tank with a 'knowledge' up there with facts instead rehashing this crap whenever and wherever you can ,...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts

    In Polish
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsko-czechos%C5%82owackie_konflikty_graniczne

    “Concentrate and try to stay on the subject….”

    lol

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  189. @AndrewR
    What's next? A law banning claims that Poles ethnically cleansed Germans after the war? Or a law banning any criticism of said ethnic cleansing?

    This law proves that the anti-Pole sentiments of Friedrich der Grosse, Hitler, and other prominent Deutsche were eminently justified.

    Well then, Andy–was the nation/state of Poland complicit in the Holocaust, or not?

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    • Replies: @utu
    According to Jan Grabovski, yes. He claims that Poles are directly responsible for the death of 200,000 Jews. Does he have an evidence? I haven't read the book.
    , @AndrewR
    I don't know, nor does the answer to your question have any relevance to whether one should be allowed to claim the Polish government helped kill Jews.
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  190. Seraphim says:
    @Max Denken
    You are just depositing garbage on things you don't like. Your quoting German indicates that you may read German. Read up on Arianism, on how the German warrior class was all-Arian, and how come Arianism ceased to exist. Once you have digested that, I can recommend further topics of study. For the beginner you are, I can recommend, in English, Philip Johnson's "History of Christianity." And do hold that elevated self esteem -- Seraphim??? -- in check.

    Are you sure that it is not PAUL Johnson’s “A History of Christianity” ['First published in 1976, Paul Johnson’s exceptional study of Christianity has been loved and widely hailed for its intensive research, writing, and magnitude—“a tour de force, one of the most ambitious surveys of the history of Christianity ever attempted and perhaps the most radical” (New York Review of Books)]?

    “Johnson C. Philip (born 3 April 1954) is an Indian physicist and Christian theologian… one of the most prominent contemporary figures in the Indian Brethren movement and also in Christian apologetics and creationism”. Another evangelical bullshitter.

    May I recommend you (obviously an outsider) some serious studies about Christianity? Say, “The Cambridge History of Christianity”(9 vol.)?

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    • Replies: @Max Denken
    My bad, haste. Of course, it's Paul. I have his book right in front of me. For a rational insight into the early days of Christianity I trust also Bart Ehrman.
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  191. utu says:
    @Gene Dobry
    Well then, Andy--was the nation/state of Poland complicit in the Holocaust, or not?

    According to Jan Grabovski, yes. He claims that Poles are directly responsible for the death of 200,000 Jews. Does he have an evidence? I haven’t read the book.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    He doesn't. He uses estimates: he estimates that such and such number of Jews lived in ghettoes and at least such and such percentage escaped, and because only such and such number survived, it means the rest had to die from the Polish hands "directly or indirectly".

    Also, in order not to write too many replies:

    Apart form the senseless Warsaw Uprising there was not that much fighting?
     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Pi%C5%84cz%C3%B3w

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27th_Home_Army_Infantry_Division_(Poland)
    And the rest of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tempest

    My grandfather fought in operation "Ostra Brama". I've learned about that only after his death so I do not know the details :( except that he was then forced to join LWP.

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  192. @AaronB
    I'm not entirely sure that's sound methodology.

    When the Bible was finally compiled, many things in the ancient books were likely altered, and many new things added that were pretending to be ancient. In other words, there was a large propogabda element to the whole affair.

    I believe it was Ezra who pretended to "discover" the books. Interestingly, it is said that when Ezra read out the new harsh covenant to the Jews, they wept bitter tears, suggesting this was new stuff for them.

    It seems entirely possible that at the time Ezra and his scribes did their compiling, the leading civilizations were abandoning human sacrifice. Jews, wishing to polish their image, may well have pretended to have ancient books claiming they did so earlier than anyone else.

    That would be consistent with a notable Jewish pattern - many Jews like to claim Aristotle and Plato got their ideas from Jews, for instance.

    Claiming priority in whatever is perceived as excellent is a well established Jewish habit, which is consistent with high levels of egotism.

    In fact, egotism pretty much guarantees it.

    Interesting; I am not sure. May be worth finding a reliable book about that. Something in Joseph Campbell? As to the Jewish-Greek thing, it goes back at least to Alexander’s times, with hate on both sides… I think that a good way to look at our civilization, including a check on the “bad” stuff inherited from Judaism, e.g., at least in my opinion, the stuff from Genesis 26 about absolute dominion over every living and growing thing on Earth — so different from the Nature-oriented pantheism of the proto-Europeans — is to bury the concept “Judeo-Christian and call it “Europagan – Greek- Roman – Judeo-Christian” civilization.

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    • Replies: @AaronB

    the stuff from Genesis 26 about absolute dominion over every living and growing thing on Earth
     
    I definitely agree that this is bad and we should get rid of it. The pagan feeling for nature is great.

    Western civilization appears to have no fixed form. It literally contains every possible tradition, including Asian ones, in neo-Platonism, Pyrhhonian Scepticism, and thinkers like Eckhardt, and the pagan feeling for nature.

    The culture of the past 500 years seems to be over. Instead of defining Western civilization, we can try and help create the culture that will replace it.

    Perhaps the Jewish element, since ego is a human perennial, cannot be entirely absent. But it seems reasonable to hope that we can enter a phase where the emphasis has shifted towards the pagan love of nature and the more spiritual Greeks, as 500 years ago it shifted towards Jewish ego.

    The contact with Asian traditions, it was once thought, would lead to the spread of Buddhism in the West. This no longer seems very likely, but maybe the true legacy of our contact with Asia is to shift back into focus neglected elements of our own tradition, our pagan love of nature, and the Greek spiritual heritage, rather than Greek rationalism.

    Leopardi I think it was, said it was wrong to see the culture of his time as a continuation of the Greeks and Romans, but as something basically new. What will emerge in the near future, will have to be unlike the past 500 years.

    Dreams of "revival", I think, are only dreams.

    Once the new synthesis emerges out of the current chaos, whatever the new synthesis will be, it will carry automatic conviction, and seem right for the moment. With a new unifying cultural synthesis, Europe will have no problem dealing with Muslims, immigrants, and Jews. From a new position of self-confidence, Europe may well choose to leave such communities in place, with limited rights. From a position of coherent strength, they may no longer pose a threat. Or, Europe may find it necessary to expel them. When the time arrives, the answer will seem obvious.

    But the process of decay has some time left to go, before a new culture, with new foundations, can emerge.
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  193. @Seraphim
    Are you sure that it is not PAUL Johnson's "A History of Christianity" ['First published in 1976, Paul Johnson’s exceptional study of Christianity has been loved and widely hailed for its intensive research, writing, and magnitude—“a tour de force, one of the most ambitious surveys of the history of Christianity ever attempted and perhaps the most radical” (New York Review of Books)]?

    "Johnson C. Philip (born 3 April 1954) is an Indian physicist and Christian theologian... one of the most prominent contemporary figures in the Indian Brethren movement and also in Christian apologetics and creationism". Another evangelical bullshitter.

    May I recommend you (obviously an outsider) some serious studies about Christianity? Say, "The Cambridge History of Christianity"(9 vol.)?

    My bad, haste. Of course, it’s Paul. I have his book right in front of me. For a rational insight into the early days of Christianity I trust also Bart Ehrman.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    You would be much better if you consult scholarly studies. You will learn more about the 'Saxon massacres' than from the pseudo-Germanic-pagan-'white' neo-nazi myths.
    And, very importantly, consult first studies written by traditional Christians. Bart Ehrman and his ilk are bullshitters (like Paul Johnson BTW).
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  194. AndrewR says:
    @Gene Dobry
    Well then, Andy--was the nation/state of Poland complicit in the Holocaust, or not?

    I don’t know, nor does the answer to your question have any relevance to whether one should be allowed to claim the Polish government helped kill Jews.

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    • Replies: @Gene Dobry
    [AndrewR says:] What’s next? A law banning claims that Poles ethnically cleansed Germans after the war? Or a law banning any criticism of said ethnic cleansing?

    This law proves that the anti-Pole sentiments of Friedrich der Grosse, Hitler, and other prominent Deutsche were eminently justified.

    [Gene Dobry says:] Well then, Andy–was the nation/state of Poland complicit in the Holocaust, or not?

    [AndrewR says:] I don’t know, nor does the answer to your question have any relevance to whether one should be allowed to claim the Polish government helped kill Jews.

    [Gene Dobry says:] Andrew, "complicit in the Holocaust," as I asked, is not the same as your indefinite "helped kill Jews," whatever that means. Claiming the Polish nation/state to be "complicit in the Holocaust" is to accuse it of genocide, a crime carefully defined so as to be actionable. So I ask whether one might consider the law as a put up or shut up warning.

    Note the criterion and very careful definition of "against the facts:"
    Article 55a:
    1. [Anyone] who, in public and against the facts, ascribes to the Polish Nation or to the Polish State, responsibility or co-responsibility for Nazi crimes committed by the Third Reich, [as] defined in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, Annex to the Agreement for the prosecution and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis, signed in London on August 8, 1945 [....]

    Of course if there are further facts to be established, proceed.
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  195. @Beckow

    Warsaw Jewish ghetto…. that Lithuanians were enlisted (by Germans) to carry out final dispersal, and subsequently the Lithuanians were put on a ship that was [purposely] sunk
     
    I would like to know more about it. But two terms bother me: 'final dispersal' and 'purposely sunk'. Those can be interpreted differently. Self-serving story telling takes a true event, weaves a story out of it, and adds a few subjective terms that suggest a political meaning. When you actually think about it is always more complex. How would you sink a ship with only the Lithuanians? What does 'final' mean?

    WWII in eastern Europe was a very messy affair. There were a lot of inconsistencies. There were millions of local 'Volk Deutsch' (Germans ethnics who had lived there for centuries). There were also a lot of people whose nationality was fluid. A son of the pre-war head of Czech nationalists joined SS and was killed for that after the war by nationalists returning from London. Of course, later he was added to the list of 'victims of communism', it made the numbers look better. My grandpa's family was assigned a German soldier to live in his house, a middle-aged baker from Berlin who was telling the locals how to survive, when was the front coming. The same German unit then shot three local 'educated' people on their way out of village. Mindless revenge? Quota? Nihilism?

    Given all that happened, any side in this belated ideological battle can draw on lots of 'stories'. In the West there has been a slow, subtle effort to shift the blame away from the Germans because Germany is a key ally for Nato. And no matter how much people here will deny it, there is a strong ethnic kinship with Germans in UK and US. (Prince Harry marches in a Nazi uniform for a reason even if it is a joke). Among many Jews there is identification with German culture and an ambivalent attitude that often prefers to go after the Poles. It is also geo-politically better. We see in the past what we want to see.

    I’m not fond of the British monarchy in any way but Prince Harry didn’t march in German uniform he simply donned one to attend a “bad taste” party along with likeminded youths who all wore costumes that they considered to be in poor taste. How and why did your version of that incident become so distorted?

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  196. @utu
    I decided to rain little bit on this Polish parade. Just because of very unreflective and propagandistic nature of author's article.

    Poland was the only country in German-occupied Europe where there was neither a collaborationist government
     
    Germany did not really try very hard to recruit quislings in Poland. Which is too bad for Poland. If Poland was lucky like French to have Marechal Petain and had more sovereignty there would be much less unnecessary slaughter in Poland. And probably it would be better for Jews. Countries that collaborated with Germany like Hungary offered much better chance of Jewish survival. Only when Hungary decide to bail out Germany moved in and deportations of Jews began.

    There were over 400,000 Poles fighting the German occupiers in the largest underground army in Europe
     
    What do you mean by fighting? Apart form the senseless Warsaw Uprising there was not that much fighting? How many Germans were actually killed by Polish underground? And by starting Warsaw Uprising 200,000 civilians lost their lives. Yes, Germans killed them but it would not happened if it was not for the Polish underground. By how many days did Polish underground shorten the war? How many less Poles would lost their lives if the underground sat on their hands and just concentrated on enforcing law and education of young people instead of provoking Germans with futile opposition?

    And there was the largest army-in-exile fighting Hitler too: 250,000 men under British command,
     
    How many of these soldiers were recruited from German POW's in 1943 and 1944? Shouldn't they be counted as contributors to German war effort while in Wehrmacht?

    1.4 million Poles were hauled from their homes and forced to work as slaves in German factories and fields, not counting 300,000 military prisoners who were so forced also.
     
    Many Poles and even Jews volunteered to work in Germany as it was often safer there than in Poland and condition often were very good. Ida Fink and her sister did this because there she felt to be safer as Germans unlike Poles could not tell they were Jewish.

    The number of ethnic Poles murdered by the Germans was not “at least 1.9 million” as Frantzman’s article states, but 2.77 million, i.e. almost equivalent to the 2.7 to 2.9 number of murdered Polish Jews.
     
    These numbers are very questionable. Right after war it was decided that 3,000,ooo Polish Jews died and to this number 3,000,000 Poles were added. Nobody did any counting then. To large extent this was a political decision by Jakub Berman. There is a problem of other ethnicities like Ukrainians, Belorussian, Lithuanians and German who were Polish citizens who are often included in these numbers. The same victims are counted twice or trice because they are included in Ukrainia, Belorussian and so on claims.

    At least half a million of Polish citizens served in German are forces. Many of them were ethnically Germans but there was also a large group of Silesians and Kashubians who signed the Volksliste with the approval of Polish government in exile. Subsequently many Polish citizens died on Eastern front and wherever they fought against the allies. Are they counted as victims of German occupation as well?

    The physical damage to Poland at German hands, alone, stands at $850 billion–$1 trillion in 2018 dollars.
     
    Isn't it kind of late for playing this kind of game? For whom Poland is playing this game? Is it possible that some Jewish Iago's whispered this idea into Mr. Kaczynski's ears? Is it possible that this is all about getting money to Israel and the world Jewry.

    You raise lots of points, and except for the easy ones I don’t wish to argue them anymore than I do those of the Holocaust deniers. Life’s short, writing is long and difficult; I need time for the latter, not for arguing.

    Let is suffice that there is a comprehensive institute in Poland charged with the studies of this, it’s staffed by competent historians, they publish deep studies of all those issues, and I consider them authoritative. More here: https://ipn.gov.pl/en. But I’ll treat briefly these:

    1. By fighting I mean fighting. There were clandestine units all over the country, engaged in sabotage, espionage, guerilla warfare etc. My father, BTW, part-Jewish, served in one of those, for three years in the deep forest hardly ever emerging.

    2. None of the soldiers fighting under the Polish Gov in Exile (London) were German POW. But many were former Soviet POW. Stalin, under pressure, let them go, and they made their way via Iran, the M.East, to North Africa and the UK.

    3. Your claim that “many” volunteered to work in Germany is flimsy. But somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million were grabbed off the street and out of their houses and transported to Germany compulsorily. In fact, the only reparations that Germany has paid to Poland was for the labor of these slaves.

    4. I am not sure where you got the number “half million” but have not time to research now so I’ll let it stand. But to blame Poland for the acts of its Volksdeutsche population is to accuse Israel because some Palestinian Arab, Israeli citizen, blew up a bus with people in it. The collaboration of the Volksdeutsche with the German occupiers was a grave problem in all Eastern European countries that opposed the Germans. Many of the worst Nazi butchers, e.g. SS General Odilo Globocnik, belong to this category. Hence the usually-neglected aspect of the complaints about the post-war treatment of the German minority in countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. Much hate had been built toward those minorities during the war, and there were good reasons.

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    • Replies: @utu
    Wow, you are so banal. You really believe all this crap. You must be ancient. They do not make people like that anymore.

    By fighting I mean fighting.
     
    Really? How many times did your dad shoot a gun? What did your father do in this forest? How did he procure food? Did the peasant like give them the food.

    But my question was by how many days the activity of Polish underground shortened the war? And how many civilians suffered because of German reprisals caused by this activity?

    None of the soldiers fighting under the Polish Gov in Exile (London) were German POW.
     

    Nope. 89,000 were former Wehrmacht soldiers which is 35.8% of all Polish soldiers in the West.

    Learn your own history. And one more thing it is very pretentious to keep signaling your Jewish genes on both your mother and father sides as if that f. matter. But in your banal mind you think it does. You are a pathetic person. If this is the best what Poland can send to the trenches I do not think Poland can be saved.

    , @jilles dykstra
    " Hence the usually-neglected aspect of the complaints about the post-war treatment of the German minority in countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. Much hate had been built toward those minorities during the war, and there were good reasons. "

    Good reasons.
    I suppose you do not read french, otherwise you could see that Poland chose not to remain neutral, in the expectation of becoming bigger through provoking war, either immediately, that the Hitler government would collapse within a few days after attacking Poland, or after the war.
    The expectation was that Polish troops would add Berlin to Poland in September 1939.
    Hence the provocations by Poland, such as firing on German passenger planes flying between Berlin and Königsberg, by the Polish navy.

    Simon Newman, ´March 1939, The British guarantee to Poland, A study in the continuity of British Foreign Policy’, 1976, Oxford

    Comte Jean Szembek, Ancien sous-secrétaire d’État aux Affaires étrangères de Pologne, ‘Journal, 1933 – 1939’, Paris 1952

    Helmuth Fechner, ´Deutschland und Polen, 1772 – 1945’, Würzburg 1964

    A. von Ribbentrop, ´Deutsch-Englische Geheimverbindungen, Britische Dokumente der Jahre 1938 und 1939 im Lichte des Kriegsschuldfrage’, Tübingen 1967

    Leonard Mosley, ‘The Reich Marshall, A Biography of Hermann Goering’, London 1974

    You of course now will answer that the widow of Von Ribbentrop cannot be trusted.
    Alas what she writes is consistent with the mentioned books.
    , @Wally
    said:
    'I need time for writing, not for arguing.'

    What you write is impossible Zionist nonsense, laughable & easily debunked.
    You are wise in now dodging debate, previously you were crushed.
    As myself & others have demonstrated, you have no proof for your Zionist / leftist propaganda.
    You recite it, but can't back it up.
    Posts in this thread and then a previous one: http://www.unz.com/freed/the-future-of-the-jews/
    expose the fraudulence of your infantile Zionist claims.

    The more that guys like you write the worse it becomes for their scam.

    Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
    See the 'holocaust' scam easily & thoroughly debunked here: http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here: http://forum.codoh.com

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  197. AaronB says:
    @Max Denken
    Interesting; I am not sure. May be worth finding a reliable book about that. Something in Joseph Campbell? As to the Jewish-Greek thing, it goes back at least to Alexander's times, with hate on both sides... I think that a good way to look at our civilization, including a check on the "bad" stuff inherited from Judaism, e.g., at least in my opinion, the stuff from Genesis 26 about absolute dominion over every living and growing thing on Earth -- so different from the Nature-oriented pantheism of the proto-Europeans -- is to bury the concept "Judeo-Christian and call it "Europagan - Greek- Roman - Judeo-Christian" civilization.

    the stuff from Genesis 26 about absolute dominion over every living and growing thing on Earth

    I definitely agree that this is bad and we should get rid of it. The pagan feeling for nature is great.

    Western civilization appears to have no fixed form. It literally contains every possible tradition, including Asian ones, in neo-Platonism, Pyrhhonian Scepticism, and thinkers like Eckhardt, and the pagan feeling for nature.

    The culture of the past 500 years seems to be over. Instead of defining Western civilization, we can try and help create the culture that will replace it.

    Perhaps the Jewish element, since ego is a human perennial, cannot be entirely absent. But it seems reasonable to hope that we can enter a phase where the emphasis has shifted towards the pagan love of nature and the more spiritual Greeks, as 500 years ago it shifted towards Jewish ego.

    The contact with Asian traditions, it was once thought, would lead to the spread of Buddhism in the West. This no longer seems very likely, but maybe the true legacy of our contact with Asia is to shift back into focus neglected elements of our own tradition, our pagan love of nature, and the Greek spiritual heritage, rather than Greek rationalism.

    Leopardi I think it was, said it was wrong to see the culture of his time as a continuation of the Greeks and Romans, but as something basically new. What will emerge in the near future, will have to be unlike the past 500 years.

    Dreams of “revival”, I think, are only dreams.

    Once the new synthesis emerges out of the current chaos, whatever the new synthesis will be, it will carry automatic conviction, and seem right for the moment. With a new unifying cultural synthesis, Europe will have no problem dealing with Muslims, immigrants, and Jews. From a new position of self-confidence, Europe may well choose to leave such communities in place, with limited rights. From a position of coherent strength, they may no longer pose a threat. Or, Europe may find it necessary to expel them. When the time arrives, the answer will seem obvious.

    But the process of decay has some time left to go, before a new culture, with new foundations, can emerge.

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    • Replies: @Max Denken
    Re: Greeks

    I could certainly use a renewed appreciation of form, beauty, aesthetic quality. Maybe if we can put globalism (incl. Made in China) behind us, and the pierced--tattooed --Taliban bearded -- metrosexual -hip-hopping - skank -- fat-- slob -- white privilege Zombie generations behind us, something to that effect can emerge.

    Also: Paideia. Identify those with the qualities to lead for the good of the people, train them from infancy, and elect leaders only from among them. This democracy business is not working when the demos has been so corrupted in every way...
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  198. @German_reader

    And no matter how much people here will deny it, there is a strong ethnic kinship with Germans in UK and US
     
    Britain must be one of the most obsessively anti-German countries in Europe, their entire public discourse is full of perpetual references to the world wars and Germany's alleged quest to dominate Europe even today. And while there are lots of Americans with some German ancestry, this doesn't really manifest itself in any German cultural power in the US or in positive attitudes towards Germany (at least I've never noticed anything of the kind...more like we're always being reminded that we're still on probation and can't really be trusted).
    Nor do I buy that there is a concerted effort to blame Poles for the Holocaust due to geopolitical reasons. The truth is simply that lots of Jews dislike Poles for the traditional antisemitism in Polish society (which shouldn't be confused with Nazi exterminationist antisemitism) and therefore have a warped view of WW2 realities in Poland.

    The late historian Stephen Ambrose, a major booster of the “Greatest Generation,” once wrote that almost a third of American soldiers in World War II were “ethnically German.”

    I don’t think this is very often acknowledged.

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  199. Art says:
    @AaronB
    Sure, but there's also some level of continuity, and Talmudism clearly is a continuation of certain strands on the Old Testament.

    The way I see it, Old Testament Judaism towards the end reached a level of wisdom found among the Greeks and Indians. Some of the prophets, and Kohelet and the other wisdom books, transcend the old Jewish egotism and materialism.

    Talmudism revived the pure egotistical strain and adapted it to the exile and it's new challenges.

    Were Jews the first to abolish human sacrifice? The Bible as we have it now was compiled, I think, around the 8th or 7th centuries BC, after the Babylonian exile. Were Egyptians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Mycebaeans, practicing human sacrifice so late?

    I'm not sure, but I don't think so. But if they were, I'm happy to give them credit for it.

    And you're right, many unpleasant and objectionable Jewish elements bled into Christianity - even the pernicious notion of a chosen people, a New Israel - and the protestants revived the Jewish strain in a serious way.

    The Spanish extermination of entire higher civilizations is very much in the Jewish spirit also.

    Unfortunately, I regard Christianity as irredeemably tainted, although I deeply admire the original message of Jesus Christ, which I regard as essentially Indian wisdom.

    Islam also has a serious egotistical side, but the Sufi strain redeems it, and even mainstream Islam has attractive features.

    I'm certainly not suggesting egotism is to be found only in Judaism - far from it. Egotism is a human perennial, and creeps in everywhere. I merely think Judaism is the purest expression of egotism that the world has yet seen. But if Judaism vanished tomorrow, some philosophy just like it would have to arise. Pure egotism is one possible position in the spectrum of positions, and many people will always be found who will fill that niche.

    Just like the poor will always be with us, as Jesus said, so will egotism. It's almost accidental that a people called "Jews " are the ones filling that niche in actuality.

    AaronB — do you have definition of Egotism — thanks — Art

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    Self-interest.

    Some amount of ego is necessary for survival. You wouldn't take another bite of food if you had no ego, or take shelter from a storm.

    But outside a relatively narrow band, ego becomes a source of strife with others, and unhappiness for yourself.

    Dominating others, gathering vast wealth, thinking oneself superior - these are just exaggerated forms of self-seeking.

    Our human values of good and bad are not laws of the universe, but relative to our biological need to survive.

    However, these values are a burden, and a source of anxiety. To look at everything in the world in terms of good or bad, in other words, beneficial or harmful to our biological survival, imposes a terrible cost.

    Humans also experience the need to be released from the urgency of value judgements and see the world sub specie aeternitas, from the perspective of God, from which height, our human concerns seem petty. This is spirituality. Realesed from the burden of anxiety for survival, the world becomes a playground, and you savor what is in the world, rather than evaluate their uses. Released for a while from the seriousness of biological survival, you can appreciate the strangeness and mystery of the world. Progress - relating as it does our biological values - seems pointless, as you lack nothing, since biological needs no longer press urgently. You are fulfilled. The world, and everything in it, hardly seems so serious anymore.

    While more fulfilling than any other experience, spirituality cannot be maintained constantly, as you couldn't survive that way. But such moments of release can be frequent, and they can color your everyday attitude and make you partially detached as you go about trying to survive and reproduce.

    But detachment is the essence of spirituality.

    The Jews have adopted a perspective from which human biological needs are final, total, and absolute. They project our petty biological needs onto the cosmos itself. In such a system, there can be no rest, peace, joy, or beauty. Anxiety and care predominate, and hide the wonder of the world.
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  200. Beckow says:

    he simply donned one to attend a “bad taste” party

    He would say so, wouldn’t he? You say it is distorted because some might not take Harry’s explanation at face value. (Although I said ‘even as a joke’, so we are not that far apart.)

    When an outsider looks at it, they just see Harry marching in a Nazi uniform. I am not sure what the difference is between ‘donning’ a uniform, and walking or marching in it. You are predisposed to believe an innocent explanations in this case, do you always do it? Or are some more believable than others?

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    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    Donning means wearing. Walking and marching are different things though a similar physical action is required for both. You used the term marching which usually implies support for a cause or belief. I don't doubt that Harry walked in his uniform as it is unlikely that he was carried or used a wheelchair. That he wore the uniform to attend a bad-taste party was widely accepted and reported at the time in the British press along with pictures of some of the other oddly attired attendees.

    Your version of the event twisted something quite innocent into something seemingly malevolent which is why I responded.
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  201. @AaronB

    the stuff from Genesis 26 about absolute dominion over every living and growing thing on Earth
     
    I definitely agree that this is bad and we should get rid of it. The pagan feeling for nature is great.

    Western civilization appears to have no fixed form. It literally contains every possible tradition, including Asian ones, in neo-Platonism, Pyrhhonian Scepticism, and thinkers like Eckhardt, and the pagan feeling for nature.

    The culture of the past 500 years seems to be over. Instead of defining Western civilization, we can try and help create the culture that will replace it.

    Perhaps the Jewish element, since ego is a human perennial, cannot be entirely absent. But it seems reasonable to hope that we can enter a phase where the emphasis has shifted towards the pagan love of nature and the more spiritual Greeks, as 500 years ago it shifted towards Jewish ego.

    The contact with Asian traditions, it was once thought, would lead to the spread of Buddhism in the West. This no longer seems very likely, but maybe the true legacy of our contact with Asia is to shift back into focus neglected elements of our own tradition, our pagan love of nature, and the Greek spiritual heritage, rather than Greek rationalism.

    Leopardi I think it was, said it was wrong to see the culture of his time as a continuation of the Greeks and Romans, but as something basically new. What will emerge in the near future, will have to be unlike the past 500 years.

    Dreams of "revival", I think, are only dreams.

    Once the new synthesis emerges out of the current chaos, whatever the new synthesis will be, it will carry automatic conviction, and seem right for the moment. With a new unifying cultural synthesis, Europe will have no problem dealing with Muslims, immigrants, and Jews. From a new position of self-confidence, Europe may well choose to leave such communities in place, with limited rights. From a position of coherent strength, they may no longer pose a threat. Or, Europe may find it necessary to expel them. When the time arrives, the answer will seem obvious.

    But the process of decay has some time left to go, before a new culture, with new foundations, can emerge.

    Re: Greeks

    I could certainly use a renewed appreciation of form, beauty, aesthetic quality. Maybe if we can put globalism (incl. Made in China) behind us, and the pierced–tattooed –Taliban bearded — metrosexual -hip-hopping – skank — fat– slob — white privilege Zombie generations behind us, something to that effect can emerge.

    Also: Paideia. Identify those with the qualities to lead for the good of the people, train them from infancy, and elect leaders only from among them. This democracy business is not working when the demos has been so corrupted in every way…

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Maybe if we can put globalism (incl. Made in China) behind us, and the pierced–tattooed –Taliban bearded — metrosexual -hip-hopping – skank — fat– slob — white privilege Zombie generations behind us, something to that effect can emerge.
     
    For what it's worth, you and I share common ground here.

    Also: Paideia. Identify those with the qualities to lead for the good of the people, train them from infancy, and elect leaders only from among them. This democracy business is not working when the demos has been so corrupted in every way…
     
    Never happen. Sounds like some form of Socratic ideal and we all know what happened to him and why. Train them according to whose values? Democracy does not exist, never really did, and cannot exist except among very small groups with homogenous values. Even the "gold standard," Athenian democracy, was pretty much a farce since more than 2/3 of the population were women, children and slaves who were ineligible to cast ballots. Even then it didn't last long and was contentious.

    What Western "civilization" has lived with for millennia are various forms of klepto-plutocracies, not democracies or even true aristocracies.

    In my opinion the main fallacy lies in hoping for some ideal form of rule, and that's a futile endeavor partly because humans do not exist to be ruled, and because no man is fit to rule over others.


    Isaiah 9 16 ----For the leaders of the people cause them to err: and they that are led by them are devoured. ----
     

    Hosea 8:4: "They set up kings, but not by Me; They made princes, but I did not acknowledge them."
     
    Then we have 1 Samuel 8, which is chock full of great nuggets but too long to add here.:

    Sample.:


    11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights:


     

    And he goes on to list what invariably happens with rulers. Besides, smart people resent coercion, which is why trying to lead Jews is like trying to lead cats, and why there are so many cults and sub-cults extant.
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  202. snag says:
    @utu
    I decided to rain little bit on this Polish parade. Just because of very unreflective and propagandistic nature of author's article.

    Poland was the only country in German-occupied Europe where there was neither a collaborationist government
     
    Germany did not really try very hard to recruit quislings in Poland. Which is too bad for Poland. If Poland was lucky like French to have Marechal Petain and had more sovereignty there would be much less unnecessary slaughter in Poland. And probably it would be better for Jews. Countries that collaborated with Germany like Hungary offered much better chance of Jewish survival. Only when Hungary decide to bail out Germany moved in and deportations of Jews began.

    There were over 400,000 Poles fighting the German occupiers in the largest underground army in Europe
     
    What do you mean by fighting? Apart form the senseless Warsaw Uprising there was not that much fighting? How many Germans were actually killed by Polish underground? And by starting Warsaw Uprising 200,000 civilians lost their lives. Yes, Germans killed them but it would not happened if it was not for the Polish underground. By how many days did Polish underground shorten the war? How many less Poles would lost their lives if the underground sat on their hands and just concentrated on enforcing law and education of young people instead of provoking Germans with futile opposition?

    And there was the largest army-in-exile fighting Hitler too: 250,000 men under British command,
     
    How many of these soldiers were recruited from German POW's in 1943 and 1944? Shouldn't they be counted as contributors to German war effort while in Wehrmacht?

    1.4 million Poles were hauled from their homes and forced to work as slaves in German factories and fields, not counting 300,000 military prisoners who were so forced also.
     
    Many Poles and even Jews volunteered to work in Germany as it was often safer there than in Poland and condition often were very good. Ida Fink and her sister did this because there she felt to be safer as Germans unlike Poles could not tell they were Jewish.

    The number of ethnic Poles murdered by the Germans was not “at least 1.9 million” as Frantzman’s article states, but 2.77 million, i.e. almost equivalent to the 2.7 to 2.9 number of murdered Polish Jews.
     
    These numbers are very questionable. Right after war it was decided that 3,000,ooo Polish Jews died and to this number 3,000,000 Poles were added. Nobody did any counting then. To large extent this was a political decision by Jakub Berman. There is a problem of other ethnicities like Ukrainians, Belorussian, Lithuanians and German who were Polish citizens who are often included in these numbers. The same victims are counted twice or trice because they are included in Ukrainia, Belorussian and so on claims.

    At least half a million of Polish citizens served in German are forces. Many of them were ethnically Germans but there was also a large group of Silesians and Kashubians who signed the Volksliste with the approval of Polish government in exile. Subsequently many Polish citizens died on Eastern front and wherever they fought against the allies. Are they counted as victims of German occupation as well?

    The physical damage to Poland at German hands, alone, stands at $850 billion–$1 trillion in 2018 dollars.
     
    Isn't it kind of late for playing this kind of game? For whom Poland is playing this game? Is it possible that some Jewish Iago's whispered this idea into Mr. Kaczynski's ears? Is it possible that this is all about getting money to Israel and the world Jewry.

    To get some credibility here you’re going to have to do little more than cut and paste holocaust museum crap especially personal recollections sprinkled with an imagination begging for pity.

    In holocaust museum Bielski Brothers are heroes but in reality they were a bunch of bandits, murderers and rapists. So much for credibility.

    Agree with Warsaw Uprising it was senseless and stupid the only ones who gained were the Soviets and jewish commies from Poland that took off to Soviet Union instead fight invading Germans.

    http://www.minelinks.com/war/bandits_1.html

    https://www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/prof-chodakiewicz-analyzes-the-koniuchy-massacre

    Once crook always crook.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/14/usa.secondworldwar

    Good article about Bielski Brothers.

    http://www.rp.pl/artykul/252550-Bielski-pomagal-Zydom–ale-tez-ich-wykorzystywal.html

    Same article in lousy google translation. When you see an empty space scroll down to continue

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.rp.pl/artykul/252550-Bielski-pomagal-Zydom–ale-tez-ich-wykorzystywal.html&prev=search

    Have a good one.

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    • Replies: @utu
    Did you read my comment? Did you understand what I wrote? Perhaps you made a mistake and you are responding to somebody else. You seem to be confused.
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  203. utu says:
    @Max Denken
    You raise lots of points, and except for the easy ones I don't wish to argue them anymore than I do those of the Holocaust deniers. Life's short, writing is long and difficult; I need time for the latter, not for arguing.

    Let is suffice that there is a comprehensive institute in Poland charged with the studies of this, it's staffed by competent historians, they publish deep studies of all those issues, and I consider them authoritative. More here: https://ipn.gov.pl/en. But I'll treat briefly these:

    1. By fighting I mean fighting. There were clandestine units all over the country, engaged in sabotage, espionage, guerilla warfare etc. My father, BTW, part-Jewish, served in one of those, for three years in the deep forest hardly ever emerging.

    2. None of the soldiers fighting under the Polish Gov in Exile (London) were German POW. But many were former Soviet POW. Stalin, under pressure, let them go, and they made their way via Iran, the M.East, to North Africa and the UK.

    3. Your claim that "many" volunteered to work in Germany is flimsy. But somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million were grabbed off the street and out of their houses and transported to Germany compulsorily. In fact, the only reparations that Germany has paid to Poland was for the labor of these slaves.

    4. I am not sure where you got the number "half million" but have not time to research now so I'll let it stand. But to blame Poland for the acts of its Volksdeutsche population is to accuse Israel because some Palestinian Arab, Israeli citizen, blew up a bus with people in it. The collaboration of the Volksdeutsche with the German occupiers was a grave problem in all Eastern European countries that opposed the Germans. Many of the worst Nazi butchers, e.g. SS General Odilo Globocnik, belong to this category. Hence the usually-neglected aspect of the complaints about the post-war treatment of the German minority in countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. Much hate had been built toward those minorities during the war, and there were good reasons.

    Wow, you are so banal. You really believe all this crap. You must be ancient. They do not make people like that anymore.

    By fighting I mean fighting.

    Really? How many times did your dad shoot a gun? What did your father do in this forest? How did he procure food? Did the peasant like give them the food.

    But my question was by how many days the activity of Polish underground shortened the war? And how many civilians suffered because of German reprisals caused by this activity?

    None of the soldiers fighting under the Polish Gov in Exile (London) were German POW.

    Nope. 89,000 were former Wehrmacht soldiers which is 35.8% of all Polish soldiers in the West.

    Learn your own history. And one more thing it is very pretentious to keep signaling your Jewish genes on both your mother and father sides as if that f. matter. But in your banal mind you think it does. You are a pathetic person. If this is the best what Poland can send to the trenches I do not think Poland can be saved.

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    • Replies: @szopen

    And how many civilians suffered because of German reprisals caused by this activity?
     
    Sometimes there was partisan activity because of civilian suffering, like in partisan war in Zamojskie area:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamo%C5%9B%C4%87_uprising

    BTW, you can see in this article about Poles who "volunteered" to work in Germany.

    Heck, even my grandfather "volunteered" to work in Germany, after he was captured in some street action.

    There is also question of Polish intelligence, reports on V2 for example (one missile was even transferred to UK) which helped bombing the Penemunde and such a like. I guess taht shortened war just a bit.

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  204. Seraphim says:
    @Max Denken
    My bad, haste. Of course, it's Paul. I have his book right in front of me. For a rational insight into the early days of Christianity I trust also Bart Ehrman.

    You would be much better if you consult scholarly studies. You will learn more about the ‘Saxon massacres’ than from the pseudo-Germanic-pagan-’white’ neo-nazi myths.
    And, very importantly, consult first studies written by traditional Christians. Bart Ehrman and his ilk are bullshitters (like Paul Johnson BTW).

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  205. AaronB says:
    @Art
    AaronB -- do you have definition of Egotism --- thanks -- Art

    Self-interest.

    Some amount of ego is necessary for survival. You wouldn’t take another bite of food if you had no ego, or take shelter from a storm.

    But outside a relatively narrow band, ego becomes a source of strife with others, and unhappiness for yourself.

    Dominating others, gathering vast wealth, thinking oneself superior – these are just exaggerated forms of self-seeking.

    Our human values of good and bad are not laws of the universe, but relative to our biological need to survive.

    However, these values are a burden, and a source of anxiety. To look at everything in the world in terms of good or bad, in other words, beneficial or harmful to our biological survival, imposes a terrible cost.

    Humans also experience the need to be released from the urgency of value judgements and see the world sub specie aeternitas, from the perspective of God, from which height, our human concerns seem petty. This is spirituality. Realesed from the burden of anxiety for survival, the world becomes a playground, and you savor what is in the world, rather than evaluate their uses. Released for a while from the seriousness of biological survival, you can appreciate the strangeness and mystery of the world. Progress – relating as it does our biological values – seems pointless, as you lack nothing, since biological needs no longer press urgently. You are fulfilled. The world, and everything in it, hardly seems so serious anymore.

    While more fulfilling than any other experience, spirituality cannot be maintained constantly, as you couldn’t survive that way. But such moments of release can be frequent, and they can color your everyday attitude and make you partially detached as you go about trying to survive and reproduce.

    But detachment is the essence of spirituality.

    The Jews have adopted a perspective from which human biological needs are final, total, and absolute. They project our petty biological needs onto the cosmos itself. In such a system, there can be no rest, peace, joy, or beauty. Anxiety and care predominate, and hide the wonder of the world.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    The world, and everything in it, hardly seems so serious anymore.
     
    Very true.

    Such a realization also tends to release one from the pursuit of excess money and it amazes me that so many intelligent people, goyim and Jew, don't seem to understand that.

    I'm going to copy Rabelais...except I won't have a headstone.


    Tirez le rideau, la farce est jouée.
     
    , @Art

    Self-interest.

    Some amount of ego is necessary for survival. You wouldn’t take another bite of food if you had no ego, or take shelter from a storm.

    But outside a relatively narrow band, ego becomes a source of strife with others, and unhappiness for yourself.

    Dominating others, gathering vast wealth, thinking oneself superior – these are just exaggerated forms of self-seeking.
     
    AaronB,

    Christianity has a rational idealistic philosophical response to this egoism problem. The words of Jesus.

    “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    “As yourself” – so loving one’s self (egoism) is OK in Christianity. It is natural, it is expected. When we love ourselves, we take rational actions that extend our future. When we love our neighbor, we take rational actions that extend their future. When we “use our minds” to create an exchange between neighbors – the future of both is extended – when it is repeated a rational bond is created.

    When one neighbor egotistically plants and nurtures an apple tree – and the other neighbor does the same with an orange tree – they both are burdened and unbalanced with too much of something – so they trade – building a yearly ongoing bond between them. Their personal can-do egos lead to extended balanced futures for both.

    Old world egoism that is built on zero-sum is not the way to live. Being loving and using your mind, to extend each party’s personal future by exchanging things is the rational alternative. It is the bases of idealistic Christian Western culture. When egoism is channeled by philosophical Christianity, good things happen.

    Think Peace --- Art
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  206. @Max Denken
    You raise lots of points, and except for the easy ones I don't wish to argue them anymore than I do those of the Holocaust deniers. Life's short, writing is long and difficult; I need time for the latter, not for arguing.

    Let is suffice that there is a comprehensive institute in Poland charged with the studies of this, it's staffed by competent historians, they publish deep studies of all those issues, and I consider them authoritative. More here: https://ipn.gov.pl/en. But I'll treat briefly these:

    1. By fighting I mean fighting. There were clandestine units all over the country, engaged in sabotage, espionage, guerilla warfare etc. My father, BTW, part-Jewish, served in one of those, for three years in the deep forest hardly ever emerging.

    2. None of the soldiers fighting under the Polish Gov in Exile (London) were German POW. But many were former Soviet POW. Stalin, under pressure, let them go, and they made their way via Iran, the M.East, to North Africa and the UK.

    3. Your claim that "many" volunteered to work in Germany is flimsy. But somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million were grabbed off the street and out of their houses and transported to Germany compulsorily. In fact, the only reparations that Germany has paid to Poland was for the labor of these slaves.

    4. I am not sure where you got the number "half million" but have not time to research now so I'll let it stand. But to blame Poland for the acts of its Volksdeutsche population is to accuse Israel because some Palestinian Arab, Israeli citizen, blew up a bus with people in it. The collaboration of the Volksdeutsche with the German occupiers was a grave problem in all Eastern European countries that opposed the Germans. Many of the worst Nazi butchers, e.g. SS General Odilo Globocnik, belong to this category. Hence the usually-neglected aspect of the complaints about the post-war treatment of the German minority in countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. Much hate had been built toward those minorities during the war, and there were good reasons.

    ” Hence the usually-neglected aspect of the complaints about the post-war treatment of the German minority in countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. Much hate had been built toward those minorities during the war, and there were good reasons. ”

    Good reasons.
    I suppose you do not read french, otherwise you could see that Poland chose not to remain neutral, in the expectation of becoming bigger through provoking war, either immediately, that the Hitler government would collapse within a few days after attacking Poland, or after the war.
    The expectation was that Polish troops would add Berlin to Poland in September 1939.
    Hence the provocations by Poland, such as firing on German passenger planes flying between Berlin and Königsberg, by the Polish navy.

    Simon Newman, ´March 1939, The British guarantee to Poland, A study in the continuity of British Foreign Policy’, 1976, Oxford

    Comte Jean Szembek, Ancien sous-secrétaire d’État aux Affaires étrangères de Pologne, ‘Journal, 1933 – 1939’, Paris 1952

    Helmuth Fechner, ´Deutschland und Polen, 1772 – 1945’, Würzburg 1964

    A. von Ribbentrop, ´Deutsch-Englische Geheimverbindungen, Britische Dokumente der Jahre 1938 und 1939 im Lichte des Kriegsschuldfrage’, Tübingen 1967

    Leonard Mosley, ‘The Reich Marshall, A Biography of Hermann Goering’, London 1974

    You of course now will answer that the widow of Von Ribbentrop cannot be trusted.
    Alas what she writes is consistent with the mentioned books.

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  207. @utu
    I decided to rain little bit on this Polish parade. Just because of very unreflective and propagandistic nature of author's article.

    Poland was the only country in German-occupied Europe where there was neither a collaborationist government
     
    Germany did not really try very hard to recruit quislings in Poland. Which is too bad for Poland. If Poland was lucky like French to have Marechal Petain and had more sovereignty there would be much less unnecessary slaughter in Poland. And probably it would be better for Jews. Countries that collaborated with Germany like Hungary offered much better chance of Jewish survival. Only when Hungary decide to bail out Germany moved in and deportations of Jews began.

    There were over 400,000 Poles fighting the German occupiers in the largest underground army in Europe
     
    What do you mean by fighting? Apart form the senseless Warsaw Uprising there was not that much fighting? How many Germans were actually killed by Polish underground? And by starting Warsaw Uprising 200,000 civilians lost their lives. Yes, Germans killed them but it would not happened if it was not for the Polish underground. By how many days did Polish underground shorten the war? How many less Poles would lost their lives if the underground sat on their hands and just concentrated on enforcing law and education of young people instead of provoking Germans with futile opposition?

    And there was the largest army-in-exile fighting Hitler too: 250,000 men under British command,
     
    How many of these soldiers were recruited from German POW's in 1943 and 1944? Shouldn't they be counted as contributors to German war effort while in Wehrmacht?

    1.4 million Poles were hauled from their homes and forced to work as slaves in German factories and fields, not counting 300,000 military prisoners who were so forced also.
     
    Many Poles and even Jews volunteered to work in Germany as it was often safer there than in Poland and condition often were very good. Ida Fink and her sister did this because there she felt to be safer as Germans unlike Poles could not tell they were Jewish.

    The number of ethnic Poles murdered by the Germans was not “at least 1.9 million” as Frantzman’s article states, but 2.77 million, i.e. almost equivalent to the 2.7 to 2.9 number of murdered Polish Jews.
     
    These numbers are very questionable. Right after war it was decided that 3,000,ooo Polish Jews died and to this number 3,000,000 Poles were added. Nobody did any counting then. To large extent this was a political decision by Jakub Berman. There is a problem of other ethnicities like Ukrainians, Belorussian, Lithuanians and German who were Polish citizens who are often included in these numbers. The same victims are counted twice or trice because they are included in Ukrainia, Belorussian and so on claims.

    At least half a million of Polish citizens served in German are forces. Many of them were ethnically Germans but there was also a large group of Silesians and Kashubians who signed the Volksliste with the approval of Polish government in exile. Subsequently many Polish citizens died on Eastern front and wherever they fought against the allies. Are they counted as victims of German occupation as well?

    The physical damage to Poland at German hands, alone, stands at $850 billion–$1 trillion in 2018 dollars.
     
    Isn't it kind of late for playing this kind of game? For whom Poland is playing this game? Is it possible that some Jewish Iago's whispered this idea into Mr. Kaczynski's ears? Is it possible that this is all about getting money to Israel and the world Jewry.

    The Warsaw uprising was not senseless at all, in my opinion.
    I think it is comparable to De Gaulle marching into Paris at the head of troops after the 1944 invasion.
    To be liberated often is no liberation at all, how does one liberate itself of the liberators ?
    The biggest USA military base overseas is in Germany.

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  208. @Mulegino1
    I would say that there is indeed proof that hundreds of thousands of German, French and Italian civilians were indeed incinerated by the RAF and Allied air forces. They never made a secret about their intent and openly boasted about it in newsreels and their own propaganda publications. There is plenty of authentic video footage of Dresden burning- not to mention of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    Also, the Soviet propaganda- a la Ilya Ehrenburg- openly called upon the Red Army soldiers to kill Germans. Little distinction was made between civilians and members of the Wehrmacht. The mass rapes of German women by the Red Army were likewise well documented.

    The numbers of German victims may well be exaggerated, however.

    Free French General Juin did give free reign to the Moroccan troops to rape the women in the villages around Monte Cassino and this has not been forgotten to this day in Italy. This is another Allied war crime that has been glossed over, just like the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff, the Goya, and the Cape Arcona.

    On the other hand, there is no physical evidence that the Germans indiscriminately slaughtered Slavs and Jews and there is no authentic documentary foundation for this. The Germans even gave p.o.w. status to many of the members of the Polish Home Army captured after the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising. And one can judge for oneself whether the Polish p.o.w.'s at Dachau "liberated" by the US Army look mistreated or ill fed.

    ” This is another Allied war crime that has been glossed over, just like the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff, ”

    Alas not so simple as it seems
    Cajus Bekker, ‘Flucht übers Meer, Ostsee Deutsches Schicksal 1945′, 1964, 1999, Augsburg

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