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One bemusing aspect of the modern zeitgeist is how materially poor people are objects of sympathy and compassion while sexually poor people–specifically men–are objects of ridicule and disdain. This is so even though there is a fair amount of overlap between the two (to avoid racial confounding, only non-Hispanic whites are shown and data are from 2000 onward for contemporary relevance):

Sexual frustration is probably even worse for a man’s mental health than frustration about money is. Maybe the leading edge of the cultural revolution can pivot in an unexpected direction and, after mopping up the last of the transgender resistance, push to destigmatize men who have a hard time getting laid.

Parenthetically, some percentage of these men are voluntarily celibate to a degree. The incel-volcel distinction is not a binary one, though–unless we’re talking about pious monks, I suppose. Men who go their own way often do so because the cost-benefit analysis reveals doing so to be a reasonable way to go. It doesn’t mean that if they were somehow offered an effortless, no-strings-attached fling with a stunner that they’d pass on the opportunity.

GSS variables used: SEXFREQ(0), CLASS, RACECEN1(1), HISPANIC(1), YEAR(2000-2018), SEX(1)

 
• Category: Culture/Society • Tags: GSS, Sex 
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  1. Tusk says:

    13-15% of middle and upper class people still seems like a big percentage. Am I wrong on this? I think perhaps it is surprising only because the incel discourse has only recently entered mainstream consciousness, but I assume this trend is largely recent and not historic, in that we didn’t just discover this data.

    But simultaneously there must always be a percent of people, men or women, who are excluded every generation due to things like actual ugliness that finds them unable to reproduce. Shouldn’t the issue get better as time goes on as more people are more attractice, or will it be worse as anyone not in the majority attractive range (which keeps increasing) is extremely out of their league?

  2. Rosie says:

    Whence the assumption that only men can be “incels”?

    It seems to me the notion of involuntary celibacy assumes that women who don’t have a partner are at fault for holding out, while men without a partner are innocent victims.

    There is no warrant for this assumption.

  3. Rosie says:
    @Tusk

    13-15% of middle and upper class people still seems like a big percentage.

    So much for “female hypergamy.”

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Troll: Tusk, John Regan
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @James N. Kennett
  4. how materially poor people are objects of sympathy and compassion

    Are they really?

    while sexually poor people–specifically men–are objects of ridicule and disdain.

    That’s certainly true, but I think it should also be noted that “incels” originally referred not just to “sexually poor” men, but to a specific internet subculture of young men with sometimes rather extreme ideas (worship of “St Eliott”, proposals that women should be enslaved and raped etc.), which made it hard to feel sympathy for them. Their excessive self-pity was also pretty repellent. It’s unfortunate that the term now also seems to be applied to people who have nothing to do with this subculture.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    , @Altai
  5. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Shouldn’t the issue get better as time goes on as more people are more attractice, or will it be worse as anyone not in the majority attractive range (which keeps increasing) is extremely out of their league?

    The beauty curve has changed radically in the last couple of generations. I don’t think it’s genetics, but rather plastic surgery. With orthodontics, teeth whitening, and nose jobs, there are now far more beautiful girls than there were in my generation, and I mean movie star beautiful. Less-beautiful girls appear unacceptable by comparison. The pressure to be beautiful was bad enough in my day. I’m told it’s far worse now.

  6. Men who go their own way often do so because the cost-benefit analysis reveals doing so to be a reasonable way to go.

    The older I get and the more I think about it, the less reasonable this kind of thinking is to me. The proposition seems to be: “It you have a child with the wrong woman, she will divorce you and take your money, leaving you worse off than if you had remained celibate.”

    But is that the case? Is a poor person with a child really worse-off than a childless person who dies owning lots of things? Do some people actually believe that, or is it the same after-the-fact justification that forty-year-old spinsters use when they claim to prefer aunthood to having children of their own?

    Has anyone ever in his life heard someone say that he wished he hadn’t had children because he would have been happier with more objects or expensive trips? I usually—indeed, unceasingly—hear the opposite.

    Is there any animal other than man that exhibits this behavior? A sexually mature adult that refuses to mate? Is there great historical precedent for large numbers of people choosing not to do what every generation before them took for granted?

    Larkin said: “Get out as early as you can/And don’t have any kids yourself,” but he wasn’t a model of happiness—and was a very particular kind of person and hardly a one-size-fits-all sort of personality. It seems like following this advice would be a profoundly bad idea for most people, particularly regular old people who seem to have taken a great deal of pride and pleasure from parenthood in previous eras.

    I think it’s irresponsible to promote the MGTOW/child-free line to young men on the right. It’s a form of mental heroin. It feels great now—think of all the money you’re saving—but it’s just as ruinous to a man’s well-being to grow old without a family as it is to woman’s.

    Or maybe there’s a long list of contented eunuchs out there to prove me wrong?

  7. “Parenthetically, some percentage of these men are voluntarily celibate to a degree. The incel-volcel distinction is not a binary one, though–unless we’re talking about pious monks, I suppose. Men who go their own way often do so because the cost-benefit analysis reveals doing so to be a reasonable way to go. It doesn’t mean that if they were somehow offered an effortless, no-strings-attached fling with a stunner that they’d pass on the opportunity.”

    Laughing okay. I will bite.

    first you are wrong, not incorrect wrong.

    celibacy is not in any manner similar to what the incel represents. Though I have backed away from my harsher comments about the construct. The two are not the same. Celibacy is practiced by choice, not by lack of opportunity. Though scripture does say that some are made eunichs by men — that is not what is in reference.

    A celibate person chooses to abstain from relations for:

    1. reasons of faith

    2. self discipline

    3. health reasons

    4. peace of mind and its close relative

    5. fewer distractions from life involving the issues of intimate contact such as “knowing” with another person of the opposite sex.

    6. for the married periods of separation expected to enhance intimacy and desire for the male husband and female wife.

    That abstinence may be tough when its thrown in one’s face, but they nonetheless choose another course of action. In my life, I have found women not only surprised, that I will only go so far or not all, but they have gotten down right angry.

    A source of pride this. Dubious women. Surprised women. Then angry women at not meeting their expectations. It’s like people trying to get you to drink. If you don’t they think it’s about them and are offended. For people of faith, this simply is a “no brainer.”

    —————————-

    I suspect that what modern woman have done are doing to the dating scene can really be frustrating. Still, I am unconvinced that most men seeking to “hook up” for relations cannot find some willing woman. I agree that comprehending the course of courting any woman is problematic. My housemate says I am oblivious. That I miss opportunities for courtship all the time as I ignorant of the game or not very astute. Note: being open to a mate or having desires for intimacy does not dismiss celibacy. And here my housemate claims I am ignorant of what’s what and who’s who.

    Best compliment on this subject from a former student,

    “I thought you were asexual. Then I discovered you had a thing for Miss Coulter, Miss Bullock, Tina Turner . . . etc.” (It’s a long list and all out of my league which is beside the point since even if they weren’t contact would probably not be to their liking, unless we got married. So their being out of my league — all the better.

    What has happened for many is that the internet has provided a forum in which men and women seeking relations but unable to locate willing partners or the type of partners they choose to get together and comiscerate. All in all, I think this is a very small population. And may may be frustrated by confusing a temporary state to be a permanent one —

    Goodness, in an age of internet, personal notices, public relations as art . . . this seems a hard case to buy on its face. Still, I make room for people’s issues regarding relationships with the opposite sex — it’s hard work if you aren’t

    good looking
    powerful
    wealthy
    funny or
    musically inclined

    • Agree: Tusk
    • Replies: @Pericles
  8. “Do some people actually believe that, or is it the same after-the-fact justification that forty-year-old spinsters use when they claim to prefer aunthood to having children of their own?”

    I preferred family, that any number of us who are single are so for various reasons, and one of them is that there are humans whose drive for intimate physical contact is less than what one might even consider average — they simply don;t have that drive. And I am not talking about “frigidity”.

  9. Tony says:
    @Tusk

    Ugliness matters a lot more for women than it does for men, but even the ugliest women can get laid and therefore theoretically reproduce.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  10. I preferred family, that any number of us who are single are so for various reasons, and one of them is that there are humans whose drive for intimate physical contact is less than what one might even consider average — they simply don;t have that drive. And I am not talking about “frigidity”.

    Okay. So you would like a family—you desire one—but those feelings you described are more powerful than that desire? Or keeping sacred some notion about yourself?

    I don’t say this to be a jerk. I’ve been having a lot of Richard Cory moments lately and this kind of thing has very much been on my mind. Why did our generation think the way we did? What led us down this path of folly? (I’ll just assume you’re approximately my age, ~40)

  11. @Rosie

    Honest to fuck, Rosie.  You’ve taken 3 of 5 (so far) c0mments in this thread.  How about Backing The Fuck Off and letting non-Rosie POVs have a share?

    How about for the rest of this fucking WEEK?

    • Agree: ScottC
    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    , @Rosie
  12. “One bemusing aspect of the modern zeitgeist is how materially poor people are objects of sympathy”

    Right up until the next photo gallery of “walmart shoppers” makes the rounds on social media, or until the next TV show/movie depicts poor rednecks living in a trailer park.

    The modern zeitgeist can be awfully selective.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @216
  13. Jay Fink says:
    @Tusk

    Yet people aren’t getting more attractive.

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
  14. 216 says: • Website
    @Rosie

    It seems to me the notion of involuntary celibacy assumes that women who don’t have a partner are at fault for holding out

    Incel discourse is about distribution, that a minority of men are receiving sexual access while they are not.

    The idea that women are holding out relates to a different manosphere claim: that women are irresponsibly delaying marriage to maximize hypergamy and limit career damage from childbirth.

    The basic math of online dating, which has been poured over here across multiple posts, should explain to you why the incel phenomenon is male-primary if not male-exclusive.

    There is no warrant for this assumption.

    The warrant is that Team Women is unambiguously in the wrong here, and you cannot mentally accept it without casting men with equal or greater blame.

    It’s your personal Negroponte Doctrine.

    • Replies: @anon
  15. i am a traditionalist.

    That mens

    job
    money
    house
    wife

    I thought it was coming together in 2002, when I rejected offers for employment in lieu of getting my masters —- it did not pay off. At the moment a disasterous mistake. And that mistake had repercussions on other goals —

    I am deeply bitter about that unnecessary tom foolery and utterly stupid. But 9/11 really did bring out the worst in people.

    Some people have plans and goals and should any particular one of them that gets impacted — depending on the level of impact — can have consequence on all the others.

    Celibacy is an expectation for christians regardless of their goals and plans. Adhering to that is easier and circumstance is a factor. But to assume that celibacy is some manner of ill state would be incorrect.

    Uhhh, if it were up my will, laughing.

    Well, suffice to say — I want to sail my ship into a lot of harbors — but whatever the struggles, I appreciate celibacy as a mark of faith, there are plenty of other struggles in my stead. But for the christian christ demands it available women or not. And no guarantees had x goals been achieved it would have resulted in becoming a husband.

    I am a very tough customer. And since getting hit — I am worse. laughing. if you haven’t noticed, I don’t comment like a man who wants a mate.

    Laughing.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  16. 216 says: • Website
    @Rosie

    there are now far more beautiful girls than there were in my generation

    Objectively false, obesity rates are considerably higher.

    • Agree: Jay Fink
    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    , @Twinkie
    , @Rosie
    , @Mark G.
    , @IC
  17. anon[223] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Williams

    The disdain for involuntary celibates is obvious: they are not being “real men” for whatever reason. It is that simple; societal expectations for men have not changed that much. Women’s contempt for them is a different topic: hypergamy and preselection are obvious factors, but not the only ones.

    Has anyone ever in his life heard someone say that he wished he hadn’t had children because he would have been happier with more objects or expensive trips?

    False dichotomy. Most men in your age group didn’t have that choice.

    Given the 40% divorce rate and the fact that women file about 70% of divorces, there are quite a few men in their 20’s were raised by their mothers (about 28%, in fact), often with little contact with their fathers. They might just have a different view of “fatherhood” than those that grew up in intact families. The gynocentric K – 12 school system does not help.

    I suggest that when you can, listen to 20-something men but do not lecture them. You may find it interesting.

    One more thing: how many children did you have? Did you lead by example?

  18. anon[223] • Disclaimer says:
    @216

    The idea that women are holding out relates to a different manosphere claim: that women are irresponsibly delaying marriage to maximize hypergamy and limit career damage from childbirth.

    The average age of a US woman at first marriage is now 27, up from 22 back in the early 1990’s. I’m sure that there are a variety of reasons for that. But the fact remains: women in the US on average do not wish to marry in their early 20’s as they did in the previous century.

  19. 216 says: • Website
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    It’s an inflammatory take around these parts, but the US underclass is not “materially poor” in absolute terms. Obesity is inversely correlated with income in the US, but is directly coordinated in the Third World.

    The basis of pro-refugee invasion sentiment is the materially worse off conditions of the Third World, and the belief that their suffering has made the West wealthy. Thus invasion is reparations. The fact that most refugees are in fact economic migrants matters little to the Woke who desire immiserating us more than anything.

    Telling a Woke zealot, “I’m poor too” isn’t going to cut it. The nationalist right has to instead favor policies that cut off emigration at its Third World source. One of those policies should be ending certain crop subsidies that incentivize First World obesity.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  20. Jay Fink says:
    @Rosie

    There is such a thing as a female incel. I work with one, although she is looking for a relationship not straight sex. She is in her early 20s, overweight, low IQ (3rd grade dropout) but really sweet. She says the only men who pick up on her are much older and she’s not interested. I think a lot of incels could have a partner if they drastically lower their standards (which sounds terrible to me).

  21. Talha says:

    Parenthetically, some percentage of these men are voluntarily celibate to a degree. The incel-volcel distinction is not a binary one, though–unless we’re talking about pious monks, I suppose. Men who go their own way often do so because the cost-benefit analysis reveals doing so to be a reasonable way to go.

    This is an interesting subject, for sure. I remember reading sometime ago that a fairly good percentage of marriages (15 – 20%, I believe it was according to one poll or report) are basically sexless. Does that count as incel? Or volcel?

    It seems relationships between men and women are just this weird dynamic that marriage doesn’t necessarily solve. Maybe many married men forgo the sex because it also seems like the cost-benefit analysis just doesn’t make it worth the effort to pursue, but the cost-benefit of keeping the relationship moving along does seem worth it. Kids, of course, would likely influence the decision – though judging by the families of my daughter’s friends in high school, I am fairly shocked at how casually some men walk out on their kids.

    It (the volcel/incel marriage) seems an area ripe for study.

    And I definitely have no clue about women on the subject, so I’d rather not speculate.

    Peace.

  22. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Hmmm…doing some quick searching on the subject, looks like this comes up – so it looks like some people are definitely studying the phenomenon of the married incel/volcel (the books title seems to suggest volcel):

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros
  23. @Jay Fink

    Yet people aren’t getting more attractive.

    I dunno, man. Look at a picture of the Shangri-Las and then look at any modern pop songstress. People used to look weird: their teeth were all fucked up, their women didn’t depilate reliably, and their clothes were (by modern standards) often quite strange—I’m sure those wool bathing suits were fun for great-grandpa, but when I look at photos of women from the thirties on the beach, I’m not swept away with desire. People seem to have gone for different kinds of faces in those days.

  24. @Talha

    … judging by the families of my daughter’s friends in high school, I am fairly shocked at how casually some men walk out on their kids.

    For men, having children (I think) is more important than raising children.

    Or maybe I’ve been listening to too many gangsta rap records?

  25. Talha says:
    @Daniel Williams

    Great questions and comment in general. Wish someone could provide the answers – and soon…those TFR numbers aren’t going to pick themselves up through magic.

    Peace.

  26. Jay Fink says:
    @216

    When I see that chart I can’t help but wonder what Americans did to make themselves gain so much more weight than the rest of the world?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  27. 1. Is this self reported social class? Imagine calling yourself upper class while also being an incel

    2. No such thing as female incel, only a refusal to lower standards. There will eventually be a buyer for all pussy at some price.

    3. The nearest female equivalent is the girl who “can’t get a guy to commit” and this too is a problem but it’s almost entirely solvable by the woman herself so minimal sympathy.

    4. Legalize and encourage dueling

    5. The dissident right started with PUA because if you get a man laid he will listen to you.

    See also: “Universal Basic Woman” by Delicious Tacos

    • Replies: @Tusk
    , @Audacious Epigone
  28. Tusk says:
    @Daniel Williams

    I agree. I do think the average person is becoming more visually pleasing. Whenever I look at these old “gorgeous” actresses from the early 20th century I find them attractive, but hardly ever am I blown aware compared to some of the most attractive people these days.

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
  29. Tusk says:
    @Not My Economy

    I would have used my LOL but I don’t have any left at the moment. The idea that the Dissident right (at least you didn’t use alt-right) started with PUAs is cringe inducing.

  30. @Daniel Williams

    proposition seems to be: “It you have a child with the wrong woman, she will divorce you and take your money, leaving you worse off than if you had remained celibate.”

    But is that the case? Is a poor person with a child really worse-off than a childless person who dies owning lots of things?

    It’s not really about the money, the money is a cover story, it’s about the fear of living with the shame of being cucked. Loss of status and the basically destruction of your life/identity. Can’t lose if you don’t play.

    Is there any animal other than man that exhibits this behavior? A sexually mature adult that refuses to mate?

    It’s well documented that many animals refuse to breed in captivity.

  31. Twinkie says:
    @216

    You are right that obesity is in the rise in the developed world and is a particularly acute problem in the West, especially the United States.

    However, note that the obesity increases are unevenly distributed by educational attainment and income in the U.S., particularly among women (I believe AE has published stats to the point). Being trim is very much of a class marker these days for American women. I witness this in a few hours driving from a super zip to Appalachia. I go suddenly from seeing married women who are educated, well-traveled, affluent, trim, and stylish (and church-frequenting) in the former to seeing those who are single moms, poorly educated, impoverished, morbidly obese, and dumpy. They are two different worlds.

    The other thing to note is that a woman’s attractiveness can be improved dramatically with minor effort. Aside from losing weight, women can be “dolled up” with good makeup and well-fitted clothing. That’s another thing about many lower class American women – they go everyday in sweat shirts and such, looking disheveled. Meanwhile, in other regions of the world, say East Asia or Eastern Europe, women, especially younger women, won’t step outside their home without makeup, skincare, attractive outfits, and heels. I have a family friend who is a middle aged French lady – she doesn’t go anywhere without looking elegant and chic, and looks very attractive because of her style and feminine bearing.

    • Agree: 216, Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Jay Fink
  32. @Tusk

    Betcha the cigarettes had a lot to do with it. Everybody smoked in those days. By thirty, their looks were toast: teeth, gums, skin, everything was just shot.

  33. Twinkie says:
    @Not My Economy

    Can’t lose if you don’t play.

    If you don’t play, you also can’t win.

    I hate this mentality. In sports, I despise athletes “who fight not to lose.” I’d rather do my best to win decisively and get knocked out than try not to lose and eke out a decision loss (0r play games with rules and eke out a win).

    That’s the (rather Spartan) motto at good Judo dojos – “Throw. And be thrown.”

    Or as the ancients wrote: qui audet adipiscitur.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @Audacious Epigone
  34. @Not My Economy

    It’s well documented that many animals refuse to breed in captivity.

    So who’s holding the keys to modern man’s cage?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  35. Jay Fink says:
    @Twinkie

    My nearby big box store is a mix of Hispanics and lower class whites. Everyone is low income but most of the Latina shoppers are dolled up and dressed nice (especially those who speak Spanish..I presume newer immigrants) while the white women look horrible…obese, no makeup and dressed like slobs. They take no pride in their appearance and put in no effort.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Talha
  36. The depopulation that we are witnessing now will not be reversed. We are just beginning to enter upon a phenomenon that will continue for centuries, until the human race is a mere fraction of its current size.

    This is an entirely natural process. Appalling, in some degree, yes, but natural all the same. It happens to every high culture that has fulfilled its inward possibilities and no longer finds within itself any self-evident basis for its existence.

    High cultures begin with a wave of optimism. When they reach their full strength, they animate the lives of men with all sorts of symbolic accomplishments (crusades, battles, arts, feats of intellect, constructions, advancement of ideals, accumulations of wealth, etc.) for the purposes of which men are bred in numbers far in excess of that which nature herself requires. In the end, the desire for urban living—i.e. life entirely within the confines of the city, that artificial cosmos obeying the will of man alone—sums up the entire purpose of the enterprise. And along with the inflated numbers of men is developed, almost as an afterthought, the means of supporting them. This practical consideration is never in the forefront until the dissolution is quite far advanced.

    With urban living having become a finished thing, optimism wanes, life becomes increasingly purposeless, young people are no longer tracked into marriage and childbearing for idealistic ends, and life loses its way in the urban jungle. The desire for large broods is lost and, long after that, the means of supporting them.

    On top of all that, there is a deep and scarcely conscious instinct within all creatures for the proper size of the race, and which strives, with certain caveats and tolerances, to match the number of births to the number of deaths so that the species itself is maintained in the optimal condition. With lifespans getting longer, there are an increasing number of malingering individuals clogging up the pipeline and ablating the reproductive drive. This factor will diminish somewhat as the Boomers die off, but it will not be enough to reverse the deeper secular decline.

    • Replies: @John Regan
    , @Dumbo
  37. @Mr. Rational

    Damn, Mr. It looks as though Rosie has just triggered the shit out of you over there.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  38. Maybe I’m a little out of touch, but this relatively new term, “incel” looks suspiciously like the old term my generation used a lot, “jackoff”. It’s basically the same thing, right?

  39. Twinkie says:
    @Jay Fink

    Everyone is low income but most of the Latina shoppers are dolled up and dressed nice (especially those who speak Spanish..I presume newer immigrants) while the white women look horrible

    Well, luck you, I guess?

    There is pretty significant residential segregation where I live, so Hispanics live on the wrong side of the tracks, so to speak. And Hispanic women there are just as obese and dumpy as the women in Appalachia. And they seem to get pregnant, husband or no, at early ages.

    Being trim and dressed well these days is a SWPL women thing in America, meaning, racially and class-wise, East Asians and affluent whites. I wish that weren’t the case, but that is the reality.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  40. Talha says:
    @Jay Fink

    while the white women look horrible…obese, no makeup and dressed like slobs. They take no pride in their appearance and put in no effort.

    In which case burkas are definitely preferable to the yoga pants that some of these women sport.

    Peace.

  41. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Tony

    Ugliness matters a lot more for women than it does for men, but even the ugliest women can get laid and therefore theoretically reproduce.

    Maybe for women it’s not all about getting laid? Maybe just getting laid doesn’t make women happy? And maybe some women think more about having a family rather than merely reproducing.

    Of course the emphasis on getting laid, the idea that having lots of sexual partners is the key to happiness, is not exactly great for men either.

  42. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Not My Economy

    It’s well documented that many animals refuse to breed in captivity.

    And our modern society is as unnatural as a cage in a zoo.

    The difference is that good zoos do as much as they can to make the animals happier so they will reproduce. Modern society doesn’t even bother to do that.

  43. @Twinkie

    Twinkie, you and Jay are both right.

    There is a definite subclass of Hispanics who aspirationally identify with the white/Asian swipples and who like to go to the gym and shop at Walmart wearing their Lululemon and Under Armor. They do stand out from the crowds of lower class white people in similar settings.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
  44. Thomm says:

    Keep in mind that most White Trashionalists are incels. That is why about 40% of them become bisexuals. As Heartiste often said :

    “99% of White Nationalism is the bottom 20% of white men getting angry that the bottom 20% of white women are now allowed to avoid them”.

    If you disagree, you have failed to account for why this race-centric ideology, that explicitly needs female participation, is nearly 100% male.

    The bottom 20% of white men become WNs. The bottom 20% of white women become fat bluehaired feminists. The latter cannot stand the former, which is why WN is the only community that explicitly requires female involvement yet cannot attract women.

  45. Jay Fink says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Yes I see them all the time. Latinas going to the store looking like they are dressed to go out to a nightclub. It almost seems as if they are doing it to piss off the white women, to make them look all the worse. A bilingual friend of mine told me he has heard them call dumpy looking white women lesbians in Spanish. While that isn’t nice I can understand what they are thinking. When a woman puts no effort into their appearance they often have a masculine vibe, even if that’s not their intention.

  46. Jay Fink says:
    @Daniel Williams

    Women from the 1930s don’t look attractive to me either, even the ones who were considered beautiful at the time. Starting in the 60s or so they started looking a lot better with female beauty peaking out in the 80s or 90s (This is probably all subjective) with a decline since then driven by obesity but also by a lack of grooming in the lower classes. Also, I’m probably in the minority and no offense intended but I think tattoos detract from beauty..although tatts have nothing to do with genetic beauty of course.

    You mention different female singers. Today’s singers are not all beauties. How about a popular singer of today, Adele? She is representative of how many women look today which besides her talent is a reason she has been so successful, a lot of women can relate to her chubbiness. Or how about Pink? She has the rough around the edges looks and personality that so many women have today. For my tastes though the least attractive female singer of all time was popular in the late 60s/early 70s…Janis Joplin…although she was a great blues rock talent.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  47. Jay Fink says:
    @Thomm

    You mention this over and over but are WNs even that big of group to be worthy of so much discussion? They are fringe and in relative small numbers.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Thomm
    , @Pericles
  48. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jay Fink

    Also, I’m probably in the minority and no offense intended but I think tattoos detract from beauty..although tatts have nothing to do with genetic beauty of course.

    Tattoos are an unhealthy sign.

    Women from the 1930s don’t look attractive to me either, even the ones who were considered beautiful at the time. Starting in the 60s or so they started looking a lot better with female beauty peaking out in the 80s or 90s (This is probably all subjective)

    The best music is the music you grew up with. And the most attractive women are the ones who were attractive when you hit puberty.

    Personally I think the 80s was the most catastrophic decade ever for female beauty, and female fashion, and female hairstyles. But that’s not the decade in which I hit puberty. So it’s no coincidence that I don’t like 80s music either.

  49. Men who go their own way often do so because the cost-benefit analysis reveals doing so to be a reasonable way to go.

    One word: Prostitutes.

    • Replies: @JackOH
  50. @Daniel Williams

    Has anyone ever in his life heard someone say that he wished he hadn’t had children because he would have been happier with more objects or expensive trips?

    It seems to me that a lot of Northern Europeans do have this attitude. Even a lot of people who do have children don’t seem to enjoy them very much.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
  51. Has anyone ever in his life heard someone say that he wished he hadn’t had children because he would have been happier with more objects or expensive trips?

    Yeah, well, I got a kick out of raising my kid, especially with my ex-wife remarried. Sometimes I think about the money, but then, with no kid, I might just have bought the next cutting-age motorcycle, the one to be the death of me. Maybe this is why parents, married or not, live longer, heh..

  52. Ghak says:

    Why hasn’t anybody raised the point that a majority, or a vast majority of incel men are likely Asperger’s sufferers?

    • Replies: @anon
  53. @Intelligent Dasein

    Don’t be the guy who drinks the Spenglerian Kool-Aid. The entirety of his theories was speculation based on repeated assertion, without even the pretense of evidence.

    There is a small kernel of truth to his pretentious drivel, in that civilizations demonstrably do rise and fall, but this is not due to some magical divine principle that dictates they are just doomed no matter what after a certain “lifetime” has elapsed and they lose their collective “optimism” (or whatnot).

    The more accurate macro-scale explanation is that social decay invariably follows the infiltration of hostile foreign elements, as well as the dysgenic decay of the founder population. Which, to be fair, is substantially a product of urban civilization when all else is equal. But there’s nothing mysterious or inevitable about it. The problems can be understood, and public policies enacted to counter them, as Spengler’s own contemporaries in fact were already doing at the time when he wrote his self-indulgent masterpiece. Unfortunately, a disastrous civil war between the advanced cultures of the world put a spanner in the works before the reconstructive efforts could be truly effective. And so here we are…..

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    , @Anon
  54. @216

    I think I’ve made it clear that I agree with all this in the past, especially the part about the US lower class not being materially poor. But that’s not the point I was making. Certain groups of (what are thought to be) lower class people are certainly not protected by our sympathies, they are subjects of our mockery.

  55. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @Daniel Williams

    Typical delusional comment. The rate of malocclusion/dental defects has been rising, not falling. Not depilating and the fashion of the era aren’t expressed genetically.

    The average person nowdays is uglier, stupider, physically weaker, and more prone to disease and injury than 100 years ago. And that’s despite lower tobacco consumption, lead exposure, less pollution, cleaner drinking water, etc.

  56. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    ???

    Eastern Eurocel cope.

    Northwestern Europeans have rhe highest fertility rates among whites in Europe and North America.

  57. @dfordoom

    Tattoos are an unhealthy sign.

    Why do you write this?

  58. Haven’t gotten laid since early September.

    Not an incel, no. But I would certainly prefer to be having lots more sex than I currently am having.

  59. @Twodees Partain

    Nah, it was just a good excuse to use “fuck” a bunch of times.

    • LOL: Twodees Partain
  60. @dfordoom

    The difference is that good zoos do as much as they can to make the animals happier so they will reproduce. Modern society doesn’t even bother to do that.

    The hostile elites of the West impose policies which immiserate the majority, and they flaunt their own immunity from the consequences the rest suffer.

    Rope and lamp posts are too good for them.  Stakes and firewood are required.

  61. @anon

    I’ll answer your questions:
    How many kids? Three.
    Did I lead by example. Definitely (still married to their mother, quite happily.)

    Are my kids married? Yes.
    Do they have kids? Yes.
    Are they well-employed? Yes.
    Are their families characterized by “stay-at-home” mothers (like theirs?) Yes.
    Do they own homes? Yes.

    This life is an adventure. It is THE adventure, literally the only game in town. How you play your role in it has a whole lot of “what you can’t control” and a fair amount of “what you can control.” How well you play is determined by the latter far more than the former.

    One of the homeliest women I’ve ever met (a classmate of my wife’s) married well and has a very nice family. Even for women, looks aren’t everything. A man may be hooked by physical beauty, but a sweet disposition, honesty and trustworthiness are what sustains a marriage from the woman’s side.

    I feel quite sorry for young men whose parents (esp. fathers) were too clueless to provide the “tips and tricks” necessary for playing the game of life well. Most parents are, from my experience, idiots…so their kids are basically what you have in the book Lord of the Flies. Parenting success started to fall off badly in the 1960’s, so that today’s young people are the children of poor-parenting squared (two generations of it.)

    The time to meet Mr. or Miss Right is early, 15-22 or so. You might be able to stretch it to late 20’s, but that’s it. Over time, people incorporate “DEAL BREAKER” experiences, and everything we experience becomes an inescapable part of us. By the time someone (man or woman) is 30-35, the odds are they have their attics (memories) full of the broken furniture (experiences) one accumulates with time. Women, especially those who are passably attractive, will have had a succession of dissatisfying relationships that turned physical, embedding sexual experiences with a spectrum of men (or women?!) that will poison later relationships. The odds of avoiding such poison are low (not zero, but low.)

    Life is an adventure best tackled in partnership. The highs are higher, the lows less low. Partnership (marriage) is characterized by mutual INTER-DEPENDENCE, not independence. It is characterized by complementary strengths, and (the best include) what I call an encyclopedic dialog. The married couple exists together in a Venn Diagram circle with no others close…no Sex-in-the-City confidants who hear the intimate details of the relationship.

    This is how one “cures” involuntary celibacy. But our modern fads and fashions undermine this at every turn. No wonder so many people are now miserable and lonely. I do pity them, for theirs is a plight worse than most.

    Loneliness kills people. It’s undoubtedly worse than cigarette smoking or morbid obesity in terms of reducing one’s life expectancy.

    • Agree: follyofwar
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Talha
    , @iffen
  62. @dfordoom

    Tattoos are an unhealthy sign.

    Every human attribute exists on a spectrum.

    A particularly important human attribute is impulsivity (or herding behavior, i.e., the compulsion to mimic what you think others do or think.)

    Tattoos, especially visible ones or banal images, are a hallmark of herding behavior impulsivity.

    Other’s mileage may vary, but I find people who are high on the spectrum for acting like herd animals to be horrifying.

    Among my fatherly “tips and tricks” passed to my kids: “Being different for the sake of being different is the essence of conformity.” Pity those who get tatted up, get weird piercings or color their hair funny colors; they make themselves look like clowns because on the inside they’re as undifferentiated and cardboard as any corrugated box in the store. They’re substituting a veneer of difference for actual difference (on the inside.)

    But then, the masses are the masses. They behave like farm animals because they are farm animals.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  63. @John Regan

    The biologist in me sees the ersatz religion we call Leftism as Nature’s species-wide suicide switch, invoked when a species wipes out all predation and most of Nature’s normal limiting processes (e.g., high infant mortality, periodic famine, etc.) and begins to grossly overspread its ecological niche.

    • Replies: @Talha
  64. @Rosie

    But there are many otherwise beautiful young women who have ruined their bodies with tattoos. I’ll bet that turns off a good chunk of men. Who wants to marry a tattooed lady?

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @Squid
  65. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    An Irishman, a Frenchman and a Southern redneck are drinking and having a conversation in a bar and start arguing over which is the best bar in the world. The Irishman says that O’Malley’s in Dublin is the best. When you buy a drink the 2nd one is free. The Frenchman says that Pierre’s in Paris gives two free drinks after the purchase of a drink. All agree that Pierre’s sounds great. The redneck says that Bubba’s in Podunk is the best of all. He says that all the drinks are free and after the 4th drink you are allowed to go in the back and get laid for free. All agree that Bubba’s can’t possibly be beaten. Then the Frenchman becomes skeptical and demands to know whether the redneck has actually been to Bubba’s, or did he just hear about it. The redneck said that he had not been to Bubba’s himself, but that his sister had been several times.

  66. @anon

    I don’t think you understood what I wrote. My point was that given the choice between a.) having children and then being ripped off by some broad in a divorce, and b.) not having children, most men would be better off choosing the former.

    Do you disagree? If so, why?

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    , @anon
  67. Rosie says:
    @Mr. Rational

    Honest to fuck, Rosie. You’ve taken 3 of 5 (so far) c0mments in this thread. How about Backing The Fuck Off and letting non-Rosie POVs have a share?

    By all means, would someone please let the misogynists around here get a word in edgewise?

  68. I don’t want to hear or see any more about hip-banging humping and sweaty romantic thumping.

    It is indecent and thoroughly UN-ENGLISH!

    We need to focus on AFFORDABLE FAMILY FORMATION!

    Young White Americans are finding it hard to form families and build families and that must be in the presidential election issue debate!

    White Core America has the answer to these sad sack boobs who can’t get no loving, the kind of dumb boob gents who walk around dog-faced and hurt, according to Florida Man Top Petty RIP. I can’t decide which is worse, men without the ability to get decent tail or tail without the ability to land a decent man.

    White Core America plan to boost Affordable Family Formation:

    Abolishment of all student loans — private and government.

    Reimbursement of all student loan money ever paid to go back to borrowers with 6 percent a year added on to the money sent back to borrowers for lost opportunity costs.

    Immediate deportation of the upwards of 30 million illegal alien invaders in the USA.

    Immigration moratorium including the abolishment of REFUGEE OVERLOAD and the ASYLUM SEEKER SCAM.

    Immediate removal of 50 or 60 million other foreigners and their spawn using citizenship revocations and barges and other means to remove them.

    The Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion(PCLP) shall give these nutless wonders who can’t seduce a gal some confidence and it will guarantee to the ladies that they will have the funds to have babies and raise their family.

    The Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion will send each American citizen with all blood ancestry born in the USA before 1924 ten thousand dollars a month. The Federal Reserve Bank will be put to use FOR the American people instead of working against them.

    NATIONALIZE THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK NOW!

    Women like lunatics if they’re somewhat good looking and their feet don’t smell too bad. It’s true!

    Lose some weight and read Tess Of The D’Urbervilles for insight on women, you dumb ass dolts who can’t get women!

    That mulatto guy said no woman, no cry, but I saw his kid at a concert, so he occasionally made the beast with two backs too!

    Tom Petty and Bob Marley, not bad!

  69. @dfordoom

    I grew up in the early 80’s and I agree that the women of that era were not attractive. The women of the generations that came after are much more attractive. Too bad that I am too old for them!

  70. KenH says:

    how materially poor people are objects of sympathy and compassion

    Only if their skin is black or brown. Materially poor whites are often castigated as white trash, hillbillies and reprobates with few, if any, redeeming qualities.

  71. “The disdain for involuntary celibates is obvious: they are not being “real men” for whatever reason. ”

    I wanted to be supportive of your comments, but i am having to hurdle not lecturing with

    “The disdain for involuntary celibates is obvious: they are not being “real men” for whatever reason.”

    I take oit you intended this to be relective of community, but sure sounded as lecture. Real men n my view are men who take responsibility. It does not mean that things don’t happen and certainly as in my case, people are not, maliscious and do things to upset one’s apple cart, but one presses on. Whether they have five homes or none, whether they have ten kids or none, whether they are divorced or not, whether they worked at the ford plant for twenty years or two, whether they served in the military or absconded from the opportunity . . manhood measured by stuff or even achievement ignores the randomness of life, even one in which God is in control. Rain falls on the just and the injust. Millions of people lost their homes and pensions starting in the early 2000’s past 2008. Men who worked every day, paid their mortgages ahead of schedule, men who’s healthcare and pensions and jobs were wiped out in the blink of an eye. I would be hard pressed to call these men less than men.

    There are hundreds and thousands of men in DC whose incomes are based on taxes who when the economy slumped took pay raises instead of pay cuts. I think this president approved a pay raise for Congress — in light of te countries finances their choices about leadership, including pay hardly seems manly as leaders one would think they would take responsibility and adjust to the real financial state of the country and yet, they and we call consider them men (?).

    I am not convinced that the incel issue (and i don’t think the numbers are that large) is a reflection totally of a lack of manhood, because we simply don’t know the circumstances of these men’s lives.. I was fairly harsh when I first got a glimpse of this lifestyle as its not really what one considers celibate. But on reading and considering, my judgments ignored the real world even my own experience. Arrogance from ignorance. Let’;s face it women do have a say and a stake in this. And at the moment women want their cake and men;s as well and there’s price to be paid for that. When my father was my age, heck when i was my age . . . back when, there simply was not the competition for jobs that exist today and worse, no one lowered standards for men to make work available – not even for black men, despite the constant complaint. The role expectation was very different.

    Women getting upset because you don’t choose to sleep with them or have drinks —- this is a very time. And yet those same women want to blame men want to holler rape, if they have regrets the next day —- once was a time when you were embarrassed to even admit, having even considered waking up in a strange bed.

    So I am willing to give men some room and willing to grant that women can be world eating Godzilla’s, who demand a pass for the messes they made. one need not look far: Hollywood, Washington DC, the business community, education, our workplaces are chocker block full of women who eat you alive and expect you to like it and take the blame for it. Never missing a beat to blame patriarchy for their mandacity.

    I love women, but repeatedly fail to remind myself — to ave no illusions about their potential character issues, even women I like and care about.

    —————————————

    “Only if their skin is black or brown . . .”

    Some day maybe we can get real about how our society has manged to shape what it means to be black — and little of it is sympathetic, especially for black males.

    — excuse the stray from leaving the white complaint on color alone.

    it took me a long time to figure out what a female acquainttence meant when she said, she liked that I didn’t care what a woman looked liked.

    maybe its my lack of boundaries, but beauty is not hard to find in women.

    • Replies: @anon
  72. Rosie says:
    @216

    Objectively false, obesity rates are considerably higher.

    Check your logic 216. There are indeed far more beautiful girls than in generations past, though there are also more obese girls.

  73. Rosie says:
    @Jay Fink

    When I see that chart I can’t help but wonder what Americans did to make themselves gain so much more weight than the rest of the world?

    Part of it was giving up smoking. The lower classes used to suppress their appetites with nicotine.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    , @Twinkie
  74. Scanning thru the comments I didn’t see any which addressed the “JOKER” phenomenon, and why it speaks for thousands and thousands of Beta Incels who, like him, can’t get laid. In prior generations, before feminism and birth control, even ugly men and ugly women would find each other, get married and have children, usually in their twenties. Now, freed from the ‘curse’ of pregnancy, 80% of women are chasing after the 20% of Alpha men, even though they get pumped and dumped time after time, yet they come back for more. These women wind up being used up lonely cat ladies when they’re over 35, with no one left who wants to marry them, wondering what in hell went wrong as they trudge forlornly to their cubicle job day after day, with no one to come home to at night. They are beta women who, in a prior age, would have married beta men, and both would be happier.

    Joker, a 40 something lower class incel living with his crazy mother in a squalid little apartment, is Beta Man personified, struggling for compassion, community, and humanity in a world gone mad. He represents a society in steep decay.

  75. ScottC says:

    Low status men are everyone’s favorite scapegoat. “Weak men” get blamed for the world’s problems, as if guys like Elliot Rodger and Chris “Bagel Boss” Morgan are running the show.

  76. neutral says:
    @Rosie

    Because by the iron laws of nature men are easy and women are not on average. A woman can get a man if she wants, does not matter how unattractive she is (obviously not the prince charming of her dreams). An incel cannot get any woman, no matter unattractive she is, again by the laws of nature and the current zio world order.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
  77. Mark G. says:
    @216

    I was recently on my old college campus for a nostalgia visit. I remarked afterwards to a friend who had been enrolled there at the same time that the girls there are much prettier now than when we went there. He said they were just as pretty back then but since we were surrounded by them all the time we were used to their attractiveness and didn’t notice it as much. I thought about it and think I would agree with that. Young women may not be objectively more attractive now but to an old guy they may be subjectively more attractive.

  78. @Daniel Williams

    Your point is correct.

    If you do the deed with a woman and sire a child, then no matter what happens after that, you’ve at least won one battle. If you manage to hang on to the woman and to raise the child with a semblance of order and family life, you’ve won another battle, and so on.

    It is sad and unfortunate that for many of today’s men, particularly those in the lower classes, life has been reduced to a series of battles and culling events rather than a smooth story arc that can be assumed to reliably follow upon average efforts. However, as unfair as that is, the strategic calculation is pretty straightforward. You will not live to see the day after tomorrow if you do not first live to see tomorrow.

    • Replies: @anon
  79. Rosie says:

    Can’t lose if you don’t play.

    Au contraire.

    Like Kmac says, not playing means you automatically lose.

    If you play, you might win.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  80. anon[358] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jay Fink

    You mention this over and over

    Trolls do that.

  81. @Jay Fink

    She could lose the weight if she were motivated to do so.

    A reasonably fit woman will have plenty of opportunities–as posted elsewhere most women are obese or significantly overweight these days–and most men view that as the most important “first impression” they have of women.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
  82. ScottC says:

    The West has turned into an inverted Saudi Arabia where the judgment of women is given more weight and authority than the judgment of men. If women reject a certain type of man, those men are de facto bad, defective, worthless, deserving of scorn and so on, even if they are not doing anything morally wrong for the simple fact that women don’t like them.

    • Agree: dc.sunsets
  83. anon[358] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Williams

    I don’t think you understood what I wrote.

    I believe that I did. My apologies for attempting to answer with too many words.

    My point was that given the choice between a.) having children and then being ripped off by some broad in a divorce, and b.) not having children, most men would be better off choosing the former.

    False dichotomy. No man chooses (a), some have (a) forced upon them.
    Clear?

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
  84. Rosie says:

    An incel cannot get any woman, no matter unattractive she is, again by the laws of nature and the current zio world order.

    So you say. I’ve not seen any evidence to suggest that unattractive women have any more luck getting what they want (commitment) than unattractive men have getting what they want (sex).

    It hardly matters that it is easier for us to get what you want.

  85. I’m not alone in observing that women are the more fashion-conscious of the sexes.

    Today it’s fashionable for women to be “independent.” This translates to more women seeking preparation for occupations that will yield economic independence. They go to college and screw their way through the dorm, and every girl thinks she “deserves” a top-notch man, finding attention from anyone “lesser” to be the definition of harassment.

    Today it’s fashionable for both men and women to “do it” at will. Women are offered relative freedom from the “risk” of pregnancy so that they are free to have sex with men with whom they have no interest (mutual or otherwise) of bearing children. As with gambling, drug use and pornography, individuals are told that indulging their pleasure-seeking impulses is good.

    Our popular culture screams this from every rooftop, off every TV screen. If it promises to feel good, do it!

    This message is so overpowering that mothers and fathers are loathe to contradict it. I actually heard two women, an RN and a drug rep (so both with BA/BS degrees at least) discuss how laudable was their respective daughters getting the “full college experience” (AKA whoring their way through higher ed.) Another RN told me how “great” it was that her daughter, still in high school, had initiated her sex life with a friend with whom the girl had no long-term relationship in mind. What’s the value of something given away for free?

    This zeitgeist is absolutely horrific for the mental and emotional health of individuals in society. It generates high-time-preference permanent adolescence, where the moment something in life isn’t quite right, instead of working to improve it, the “player” tosses in her (or his) cards and demands a re-deal. Divorce, employment resignation, you-name-it, people are now encouraged to jump the fence the moment it “looks greener on the other side.”

    Into this maelstrom of civilization-gangrene must young men sail. No wonder so many are lost, as fat, unattractive and utterly uncivil women treat them like gum stuck to the bottom of their high heels.

    Everywhere I go I see women from 16 to 76 wearing nothing below the waist but “yoga pants,” stuffing dozens of pounds of lard into elastic never designed to hold such porcine dimensions. It’s enough to make a lifer in prison look away.

    It’s said that the “Times” cycle between Trivial and Heroic. Women rise to the “top” when times are trivial, and times are VERY trivial today.

    Men will rise again when masculinity is the knife edge between life and death. Trivial times carry hardship toward us like a hellish juggernaut.

    PS: The grass isn’t greener on the other side of the fence; it’s greener where you nurture it.

    • Agree: John Regan
    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Pericles
  86. Talha says:
    @dc.sunsets

    This, of course, is the real answer to Fermi’s Paradox that everyone is discussing over at Anatoly’s thread:
    Advanced alien civilization has not reached us because they became hyper-liberal and pozzed and had a cataclysmic demographic collapse from which they never recovered.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    , @dfordoom
  87. @Rosie

    What do people learn from history? That people learn nothing at all from history.

    How long has it been self-evident that sex (consented to by the girl) doesn’t yield commitment (from the boy?)

    Um. FOREVER.

    Then what the *$^# is wrong with young (or not young) women who still somehow think it does?

    What man wants to commit to a woman whose head will be full of the encyclopedia of sexual experiences she shared with all those prior men who she’d have preferred, but who didn’t commit?

    It’s common sense: A woman who had prior physically intimate relationships where the man ended it is, by definition, likely settling for a man downstream (especially if she’s reached the point where her fertility or physical attractiveness are about to nose-dive.)

    A man courts DISASTER in wifing up a tart that’s screwed her way through the phonebook. Lest you think me the misogynist, I’d say the same thing about the man’s experience. While men claim otherwise, it’s self-evident to me that a man needs a Rolodex of prior sexual escapades in his memory like a fish needs a bicycle IF HIS GOAL is to be satisfied for the long haul in his marriage.

    Life is lived in stages. Most of those stages are dictated by biology. Modernity tries to tell men and women that it’s okay to displace the “court, get married, have kids” stage of life from the 20’s (where it BELONGS) to the mid-30’s or beyond. It doesn’t work…only fools can’t see it.

    Marriages are better when one doesn’t have a raft of past experiences to compare. The memory plays tricks, highlighting whatever the impulsive mind wishes to highlight. How much more dissatisfied is the wife who, because her husband had a bad stretch at work, recalls how much more fun were her past paramours, the ones she “let get away,” forgetting what made them throwbacks?

    Since the “sexual revolution” of the 1960’s, both men and women have been ruined. Only a few avoided the deal-breaker experiences of our Anything Goes culture. The ones who avoided it largely did so by getting married early, before adding a host of skeletons and ghosts to their memories.

    • Agree: follyofwar
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @anon
    , @dfordoom
  88. Talha says:
    @dc.sunsets

    Even for women, looks aren’t everything. A man may be hooked by physical beauty, but a sweet disposition, honesty and trustworthiness are what sustains a marriage from the woman’s side.

    Well said. It is unfortunate that the younger man is too pumped up with hormones to understand the wisdom that his older self might impart to him after having experienced life.

    Peace.

  89. @Talha

    Agreed, Nature’s laws are inviolable.

    Mankind is of Nature, not above or apart from it.

  90. Talha says:
    @dc.sunsets

    No wonder so many people are now miserable and lonely. I do pity them, for theirs is a plight worse than most. Loneliness kills people.

    Reminds me of this Indian (Bollywood) actress who had top-billing from the 70s and 80s. She was cast in the top films and paid top dollar – she was at the height of her game. Always was found in a relationship with this major actor or this major director or some other wealthy dude. Everyone wanted this woman and she was the standard of beauty in that region.

    Fast life-style, string of relationships – no kids…ended up dying alone in her mid-fifties and her body wasn’t discovered for days because nobody was around to check up on her. If I recall, she had gangrene in her leg that she apparently was trying to deal with on her own when she was discovered. They don’t know exactly what killed her; she was immobile so did she starve to death or have organ failures due to diabetes and gangrene.

    Sad stuff, but yeah – beauty isn’t everything and you may not even remember your glamorous lifestyle when you get older, but you will probably appreciate being surrounded by a bunch of grand kids that are your cheering squad.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  91. @Rosie

    It hardly matters that it is easier for us [women] to get what you [men] want.

    That’s a really excellent point.

  92. iffen says:
    @dc.sunsets

    PS: The grass isn’t greener on the other side of the fence; it’s greener where you nurture it.

    Yeah, the grass is always greener when it is overspread with manure.

  93. RSDB says:
    @Twinkie

    who fight not to lose

    This is a changing of the context more than a bit, but as you are among other things a military historian, would this be a useful objective in certain military settings– say, where the ability to reach the enemy’s home territory is significantly lacking?

  94. anon[358] • Disclaimer says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    If you do the deed with a woman and sire a child

    What does the word “involuntary” mean? Can you use it in a sentence?

  95. anon[358] • Disclaimer says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    “The disdain for involuntary celibates is obvious: they are not being “real men” for whatever reason.”

    I take oit you intended this to be relective of community, but sure sounded as lecture.

    It’s an observation of the world. Look at the comments in this thread as an example.

    “Hurr durr, why don’t those guys just man up and find a girl”?

    What does “involuntary” mean to boomers?

  96. Rosie says:
    @dc.sunsets

    Both of your posts I have read so far have been utterly devoid of any empirical evidence. It’s all armchair speculation.

    Here you have a point:

    How long has it been self-evident that sex (consented to by the girl) doesn’t yield commitment (from the boy?)

    Um. FOREVER.

    Then what the *$^# is wrong with young (or not young) women who still somehow think it does?

    The problem is that we don’t live forever. Every generation must learn this lesson over again. When our fathers tell us that boys are only out for one thing and will lie straight to your face without remorse in order to get it, we don’t believe them until we experience it for ourselves.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  97. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    Reminds me of this Indian (Bollywood) actress who had top-billing from the 70s and 80s. She was cast in the top films and paid top dollar – she was at the height of her game. Always was found in a relationship with this major actor or this major director or some other wealthy dude. Everyone wanted this woman and she was the standard of beauty in that region.

    To be fair, a wealthy woman such as herself would likely always be haunted by the idea that she is being used for her money. Men have the same problem, and more frequently. I tell my daughters to avoid any man who tries to impress them with his wealth, because in so doing, he is telling you he thinks you’re a prostitute and will probably treat you accordingly.

    It’s better to marry a man your own age for better or worse.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  98. Pericles says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    You are describing the volcel.

  99. @Rosie

    Part of it was giving up smoking. The lower classes used to suppress their appetites with nicotine.

    So now the proles are vaping corn syrup? That doesn’t sound very appetizing!

    I aspire to proledom. Jebby Bush said we must have a fat and happy economic plunder zone in the USA with aspirational people being materially titillated by Fed-induced asset bubbles in real estate, stocks and bonds.

  100. anon[358] • Disclaimer says:

    . The idea that the Dissident right (at least you didn’t use alt-right) started with PUAs is cringe inducing.

    Why? What difference does it make?

  101. @Rosie

    Both of your posts I have read so far have been utterly devoid of any empirical evidence. It’s all armchair speculation.

    Are you a “scientist?” Evidence, we don’t need no stinkin’ evidence.

    Almost everything we “know” about people’s sex lives is BS. Are you 11 years old? Everybody LIES. There’s no such thing as “science” or empirical evidence in this context. It’s ALL speculation or bias confirmation. [FWIW, I have two science degrees, which qualify me to suggest that most “science” is pure baloney. To paraphrase, “I’ve done science, I’ve taught science, I’ve sold science and I know science from not-science when I see it.”]

    I prefer to reason out from axiom. If you prefer a different method, say so.

    My sons appeared to actually learn some things from me. Your mileage may differ. But then, my sons were an explicit experiment for me; I told my wife when we started having kids that they were going to be raised with an emphasis on the WHY, not just the WHAT they should do.

    It turns out that kids can grasp WHY certain behaviors are better and WHY certain behaviors are worse. Giving them that added step doesn’t mean that every decision they make will be good in hindsight, but it makes them less likely to have to jump up and down on the same land mines as everyone else does.

    The ball’s in your court. If you want a debate, debate…don’t whine about my style. It’s so…girlish. Point to something specific I wrote and tell me why I’m full of it.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  102. Anon[653] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Regan

    Let’s play Botticelli!

    Are you … Francis Parker Yockey?

  103. @Rosie

    It’s better to marry a man your own age for better or worse.

    Totally agree.

    Marriage is an act of faith. No one knows at 21 or 25 who they’ll be in 20 or 30 years, much less know who their spouse will become. Hopefully you know that a good marriage brings out the best in both husband and wife. Job One is, of course, learning your own operator’s manual.

    Some people get better. Many just become more of who they were all along. We’re surrounded by invitations to self-destruction. Never in my opinion has there been a better time to wall out the World and concentrate on presenting your spouse with the best version of yourself possible.

    It’s said that the best thing a man can do for his children is to love their mother. I think that’s a good start. I believe each of us is born (genetically predetermined) to a segment on the spectrum for every human attribute. I think that it’s our job to try to present ourselves on the “best” part of that segment each day, and then to avoid adding captions in our minds regarding things over which we don’t have control.

  104. Pericles says:
    @Rosie

    I’ve not seen any evidence to suggest that unattractive women have any more luck getting what they want (commitment) than unattractive men have getting what they want (sex).

    Do women want commitment though? I see plenty of single moms, divorcees and so on.

    • Replies: @Mark G.
    , @Rosie
    , @Jay Fink
  105. Pericles says:
    @dc.sunsets

    At the same time, being married and raising a family is depicted as hell on earth.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  106. Mark G. says:
    @Pericles

    Single moms want commitment. Often they want commitment from the same type of men they snubbed several years previously before they had children. At that point, though, these men don’t want to commit to 10 or 15 years of raising children who aren’t theirs so the single moms stay single. Some of the single moms end up on welfare and then everyone has to pay more taxes because of female bad judgement in picking mates and male irresponsibility in having children they can’t support.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  107. Many of the white men who founded the United States crossed the Atlantic in primitive wooden ships, fought duels over matters of honor, owned firearms, hunted and ate wild animals, killed redskins and even enslaved black people. These badasses put modest modern white American men to shame, and they generally had no trouble finding white women who wanted to marry them and bear their children.

    So I have to wonder how much of the incel problem, at least in the white male population, comes from the White Chad Envy that seems to motivate our elites’ project to extinguish the white race by demonizing the behaviors which made white men successful. The kind of man who winds up as an incel in our society might have become plausible husband material if he lived in a society where he could buy some land and a few slaves to make them productive on his farm.

    • Replies: @ScottC
  108. RSDB says:

    I haven’t read through this thread, so this may have been said, but “incels” so defined are funny.

    The spectacle of a man yearning after a woman who scorns him is, for the most part, tragic. The idea of a man straining after carnal intercourse with the class of women as a whole, and being frustrated in this aim, is basically comic.

    It’s easier to know what one finds funny or not than to be able to say why, but one possible reason is that, in general, the frustration of something that would otherwise be dangerous is inherently funny, like bumbling assassins or the Keystone Kops.

    edit: The idea of a man looking for a wife does not seem either particularly comic or tragic, just not particularly interesting to people not personally concerned.

  109. @Pericles

    This is upside down world, isn’t it?

    Loneliness is good.
    War is peace.
    Slavery is freedom.
    Marriage is hell.
    STD’s are great.
    Abortions are great.
    Life is awful.
    Children are parasites.
    Ignorance is strength.

    Three of these are from Nineteen Eighty-Four, of course. Only three.

    Modern feminism is a cancer…on gangrene. Men are fools, but women…? The modern woman is a well-used sock-puppet, made of a condom. By the time this long period of folly ends, neither men nor women will entrust running a lemonade stand to a woman.

  110. Thomm says:
    @Jay Fink

    They are fringe and in relative small numbers.

    True. But they are the majority of commenters here.

    Plus, mainstream white people don’t realize how degenerate WNs have become (for example, about 40% are bisexual). Mainstream white people deserve an explanation as to why they instinctively recoil from these WN faggots.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Truth
    , @Tusk
  111. Rosie says:
    @dc.sunsets

    The ball’s in your court. If you want a debate, debate…don’t whine about my style. It’s so…girlish. Point to something specific I wrote and tell me why I’m full of it.

    Rather than pointing to something specific, I’ll just tell you what you’re right about:

    Young men are often liars.

    The question is what do we do about that fact.

    Tell young men to stop lying?

    Or tell women that men are liars and can’t stop lying?

    If you tell women to expect the worst from men, why on Earth would they trust you with their lives?

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    , @dc.sunsets
  112. Rosie says:
    @Pericles

    Do women want commitment though? I see plenty of single moms, divorcees and so on.

    Yes, we want commitment, and we expect men to follow through on their commitments, especially the one about loving, honoring, and cherishing.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  113. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    Part of it was giving up smoking. The lower classes used to suppress their appetites with nicotine.

    We already went over this. Non-smoking is highly correlated to class and education attainment, precisely the slice of the demographic (esp. for women) that is the least obesity-prone. The lower classes still smoke and yet they are the obese ones.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @res
  114. iffen says:
    @dc.sunsets

    Loneliness kills people.

    This may be true for people who feel lonely, but it does not apply to people who do not experience loneliness. I have never “felt” lonely for even 2 minutes out of my 70 years. I am quite certain that I could do a R. Crusoe and not feel lonely. I try to be, and I think of myself as an empathetic person, but I truly have difficulty empathizing with people who claim that they are lonely.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  115. Jay Fink says:
    @Justvisiting

    If weight is a choice and within a person’s control to a large degree it is strange that so many women would choose to be obese. If women really are more hypergamous than ever you would think they wouldn’t want to cut off their access to desirable men.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
    , @Rosie
  116. There is no greater joy in life than the conquest of a woman and the first few months of passion before responsibility and obligations kick in. If a man continues then he must have children, preferably more than two, and build a personal empire where he passes on his genes, culture and material wealth.

    Unfortunately, Western societies have increasingly moved away from the ideal traditional Mediterranean machismo whether it is expressed as a single man pursuing women or as a family man where he ostensibly sits at the top of the hierarchy but works together with wife inside the home for the good of the family.

  117. “You are describing the Volcel.”

    I looked up this term. I could only find it in the online “urban dictionary” and “wiktionary”, VolCel

    I was a bit bemused. Another term for celibacy created because . . . .collapses voluntary celibacy — ok

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=volcel

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/volcel

    I would dispute the idea tjhat one needs to forgo romance or courting, typical liberals distorting the normal into some unreasoned standard so as to malign the matter.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  118. @Jay Fink

    If women really are more hypergamous than ever you would think they wouldn’t want to cut off their access to desirable men.

    Weight loss requires impulse control–many women (and men for that matter) have challenges in that area. 😉

  119. Svevlad says:

    Well I’d institute viriculture on the end of a gun barrel, should take care of incelism real good

  120. @Rosie

    “Whence the assumption that only men can be “incels”?”

    Rosie, may I refer you yet again to the good Professor Beaumeister

    http://www.denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm

    Today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. I think this difference is the single most underappreciated fact about gender. To get that kind of difference, you had to have something like, throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/sep/24/women-men-dna-human-gene-pool

    https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success

    We can argue as to what the exact ratios were, but in a pre-contraceptive age, men who didn’t reproduce were men who didn’t have sex. And there were a lot more men not having sex than women not having sex – because some men had multiple women.

    In today’s secular West, any woman who’s not morbidly obese can find a man who’ll want to have sex with her. But, as we’re all agreed, women and men aren’t the same, and most young women don’t have the chained-to-the-village-idiot drive to have sex at all costs with anyone or anything that young men do.

    If women’s sex drive was like men’s, STI rates would be way through the roof, as they are in the homosexual ‘community’.

  121. Anonymous[712] • Disclaimer says:

    Society isn’t sympathetic towards poor white people, at least not in Britain. Poor white people in Britain are regarded as losers and inadequates who despite all their “white privilege” and opportunities available to them still fail at life.

    Perhaps it’s different in America and other Western countries, but in Britain most people have zero sympathy for poor white people, especially poor English people.

  122. @follyofwar

    “Who wants to marry a tattooed lady?”

    An awful lot of men have tats these days.

    (I imagine tats on a girl now are what smoking was 50 years ago – then she’d be seen as ‘easy’ or at least easier, now I believe DTF is the expression)

  123. @anon

    When you stop and think about it, all men who marry are potentially choosing a.), unless they live in a society without divorce. It’s a 50/50 shot.

    Maybe I should’ve written “having children and dealing with the possibility of being ripped off by some broad in a divorce”.

    • Replies: @anon
  124. @Sam Coulton

    Typical delusional comment. The rate of malocclusion/dental defects has been rising, not falling. Not depilating and the fashion of the era aren’t expressed genetically.

    No kidding? So why did so many people back in the Golden Age of Cosmetic Dentistry—say, 1935—get all their fangs ripped out and replaced with dentures? Was that the “fashion of the era”?

    And I’m guessing all that clear skin we associate with the pre-Accutane/smoking generation is another relic of our ancestors’ beautiful past too, huh? And what about the withered limbs of our pre-Salk beauties?

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  125. @Daniel Williams

    External, artificial glamour. Good looking, empty, vapid, soulless meat sacks.
    It’s not the true beauty that springs from within, composed of heart, soul and mind.

    Those less than glamorous singers could sing a tune without autotune.

  126. Screwtape says:

    Incel. Involuntary. Celibate. No sex. Why is this so hard to understand?

    As usual, hijacked by ‘men do it too’, ‘women suffer too’. Men need to do x. Men need to man up, value having kids over all else. Its unfair for women too! misogynist!

    All while conveniently ignoring the dystopian sexual dynamics of the mating market, which just happens to be the gateway thru which family formation must pass.

    Easy to go after the clown world politik but as soon as how the prog values manifest in mating and marriage, cowards, cucks, and feminists in trad clothing come in and carry the prog water.

    All matters of rationalizing away and delegitimizing anything unique to the male experience ensue.

    This kind of a la Hillary “women are the real victims of war” is case in point of the post: the disdain for incels.

    We cannot have a discussion about men without it becoming about women, specifically, about how men are failing to provide women with what they really want (are entitled to). Or how men exist to facilitate the well-being of society at large. Ok so where are the incentives? What does the risk/reward look like?

    Why should we worry about some men not getting what they want? Nay, what they need. That is disdain.

    That is also why the manosphere or whatever exists- and why it is the subject of constant attack and ridicule.

    The idea of men discussing their experience without schoolmarm women and tradcons and boomercucks “just do what i did and have four kids” to tell them how it really is, what it really means to be a man, is unacceptable to our keepers.

    In the same way so called dissident politics must keep retreating into anon chambers and cannot hold forum in the flesh.

    The fact that People fail to see how they are related is not a good sign. For one (the smallest form of politics) leads to the other and the fertile ground maintained by the latter determines the former.

    Sex is sex. Commitment is commitment. False equivalencies do not nullify the problem many men face.

    Male and female sexual strategies are different, the needs are different, the attraction cues are different, and so on.

    Interesting that these differences are only valid when they serve women’s options, experiences, and fulfillment.

    Our culture has determined that the female strategy will be facilitated at all costs. – even if appealing to her happiness (whatever that means) and removing her agency will bring ruin to many of her sisters in the end.

    This is dysgenic and anti-civlizational. But we can’t dare discuss anything that might shed an unsavory light on the female sex and coupling behavior.

    Not enough good men around to complete the sacred female journey into the capstone of prog status called marriage? Cue the panic peices. .

    Incel men are hated? Well they probably deserve it. Lol.

  127. @Rosie

    If you tell women to expect the worst from men, why on Earth would they trust you with their lives?

    Because a man will do ANYTHING both to sire offspring, and to protect them.  The same imperatives are behind both.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  128. @Rosie

    we expect men to follow through on their commitments, especially the one about loving, honoring, and cherishing.

    SO, ROSIE… when does your movement to abolish no-fault divorce go live?  Can’t expect to get what you won’t GIVE, after all!

    • Replies: @Rosie
  129. Pericles says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    Stopping at ‘involuntary celibate’ would be lacking, as you note above and others have noted elsewhere, hence volcel.

  130. Pericles says:
    @Jay Fink

    Lol, don’t feed the dravidian trolls.

  131. ScottC says:
    @advancedatheist

    These badasses put modest modern white American men to shame, and they generally had no trouble finding white women who wanted to marry them and bear their children.

    Women were not the sexual gatekeepers back then. In the days of coverture a girl’s father had the final say over whom his daughter married. A man could court a girl but if the father disapproved of his daughter’s choice there would be no marriage. Men in those days proved themselves more to the father than to the girl. A man had to prove to the girl’s father that he had the means to care for a family and that he was of sound moral character. The difference between then and now is not the level of badassery among men, it’s the degree of sexual license society has granted women.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @advancedatheist
  132. anon[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Williams

    When you stop and think about it, all men who marry are potentially choosing a.), unless they live in a society without divorce. It’s a 50/50 shot.

    Perhaps you could have stopped to think before making the first assertion?

    The risk is about 40%, with certain variables increasing or decreasing the risk.
    Women in the US file 70% of divorce actions. Therefore a man marrying today has about a 28% risk of his wife blowing up the marriage in the next 10 years. There are things he can do to reduce the risk, however I doubt any of the old married people here would be interested.

    Maybe I should’ve written “having children and dealing with the possibility of being ripped off by some broad in a divorce”.

    Maybe so. That would have been closer to reality. But you are still missing a piece:

    American women on average get married at the age of 27.

    A lot of implications are buried in that fact. Why don’t you think about that, and maybe even ask some 22 year old men about it?

  133. anon[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thomm

    But they are the majority of commenters here.

    Why do you believe that? How do you know it’s true?

  134. Truth says:
    @Tusk

    But simultaneously there must always be a percent of people, men or women, who are excluded every generation due to things like actual ugliness that finds them unable to reproduce

    Two words, Bro:

    “Game” lessons.

  135. Truth says:
    @Thomm

    True. But they are the majority of commenters here.

    Bingo!

    • Replies: @Thomm
  136. Rosie says:
    @ScottC

    The difference between then and now is not the level of badassery among men, it’s the degree of sexual license society has granted women.

    We will decide for ourselves whom we will marry. Forced marriage = getting raped on a regular basis for the rest of your life.

    Never again!

  137. Rosie says:
    @Mr. Rational

    SO, ROSIE… when does your movement to abolish no-fault divorce go live? Can’t expect to get what you won’t GIVE, after all!

    Find me a billionaire financier and I’ll get right on that.

    Aren’t there like 400 White male billionaires in the world? Surely you can find just one to fund such a worthy cause.

    http://readme.readmedia.com/National-Organization-for-Women-NYS-Decries-No-Fault-Divorce-Bill-S3890a-A9753a/1432647

  138. Tusk says:
    @Thomm

    Here’s an interesting state for you: 98% of non-WN’s are transgender. Source: dude trust me (same as you).

    • Replies: @Thomm
  139. Thomm says:
    @Truth

    Truth, my brotha!

    You absolutely must see my new song, titled ‘Dy-no-mite’ :

    http://www.unz.com/anepigone/hidely-ho-neighborino/#comment-3512472

    I request substantial feedback on it (i.e. more than a mere ‘LOL’) given the specific theme of the song. It might become the most legendary song from the entire collection to date.

  140. Rosie says:
    @Mr. Rational

    Because a man will do ANYTHING both to sire offspring, and to protect them. The same imperatives are behind both.

    That’s obviously false, or at the very least not universally true. As we speak, at least tens of thousands of men are neglecting their children on account of heroin addictions.

    You can’t demand that we teach women to trust men and not trust them at the same time, and though you think we’re irrational and not that bright, we are as capable of pattern recognition (habitual lying) as you are.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  141. Thomm says:
    @Tusk

    False. Everyone from John Derbyshire to Jack Donovan to Heartiste has pointed out that this generation of WNs have a huge homosexual contingent. Rosie, too, says that this is true.

    This is a well-known fact. Plus, polls at Stormfront have ascertained this (i.e. 40% of WNs say that they would rather have sex with a white man than a black woman, since race loyalty trumps sexual orientation, and producing no baby is better than producing a mulatto baby).

    • Replies: @Tusk
  142. Feryl says: • Website
    @dfordoom

    I was born in 1985…..In the 70’s, the polyester, the hatred of pockets, the ridiculously tight “cut” of most clothes, the feathered bowl cuts sported by some guys+ the shaggy, waved, and sometimes Afro’d and sometimes permed hair worn by some men (some of whom were older and balding, yet in the 1970’s guys just had to have somewhat grown out hair) were pretty dreadful. The long side-burns were pretty bad too. Some of the mustaches and beards looked alright, others looked pretty ugly, depending on the person’s facial type and how well-groomed their facial hair was. The mid-late 80’s trend toward clean shaven faces and somewhat “modified” (layered and/or slicked up) 1950’s and early 60’s type hair cuts was a lot more flattering.

    In the 80’s, cotton and linen made a come back+clothes started to be cut with a looser style as the decade went on. By the early 90’s, it was ok to wear somewhat over-sized and wrinkled clothes. Good.

    Well, as terrible as the 70’s were for men’s fashion, I do admit that the 80’s and early 90’s could be pretty hard on women. That being said, some women still looked good. And at least the bell bottoms and goofy ass over-blown shirt collars of the 70’s were out…..And they ain’t ever coming back, thank god.

    Personally I blame drugs (as does Dennis Leary) for all the “only in the 70’s” blunders. The 70’s were a flat out awful decade from just about every angle imaginable……It’s been said that 70’s movies are so good because everything else in the decade sucked so much…I guess something had to be done right. No matter how hard older generations try to defend the 70’s, there’s a reason why Millennials feel a lot more affection for the 80’s.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  143. ScottC says:
    @Rosie

    We will decide for ourselves whom we will marry.

    Women don’t decide these things.

  144. Tusk says:
    @Thomm

    HAHAHAHAHAHAH you’re making me laugh. “40% of WNs say that they would rather have sex with a white man than a black woman” is somehow proof of homosexuality? Did you have no friends growing up to play ‘would you rather’ with? Stunning, absolutely stunning.

    • Replies: @Thomm
    , @WHAT
  145. Thomm says:
    @Tusk

    40% of WNs say that they would rather have sex with a white man than a black woman” is somehow proof of homosexuality? Did you have no friends growing up to play ‘would you rather’ with?

    This sentence effectively proves you are a member of that 40%. You would actually rather have sex with a white man than a black woman.

    Normal people would consider that as evidence of bisexuality (not homosexuality, my mistake).

    Thanks for proving my point.

    • LOL: Tusk
    • Replies: @Tusk
  146. anon[271] • Disclaimer says:

    Life is an adventure best tackled in partnership. The highs are higher, the lows less low. Partnership (marriage) is characterized by mutual INTER-DEPENDENCE, not independence.

    Very touching and romantic. Like a Lifetime or Oxygen movie. Shall we see what real women have to say?

    “When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.” — Sheryl Sandberg

    tl;dr – AF – BB.

  147. @Rosie

    As we speak, at least tens of thousands of men are neglecting their children on account of heroin addictions.

    Men who were mostly addicted due to prescriptions written at the behest of the (((Sackler))) family.  They did not enter into it voluntarily.

    You can’t demand that we teach women to trust men and not trust them at the same time

    You can’t demand that women trust doctors and not trust men who are deceived by those same doctors.  The victims of governmentally-sponsored deceit are not responsible for their condition.  They DO have a claim against the government and the related private parties, as do their survivors.  I’d like to see the entire Sackler family fortune divided among that family’s victims, and the Sacklers reduced to penury for 3 generations.  They deserve it.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  148. anon[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @dc.sunsets

    A man courts DISASTER in wifing up a tart that’s screwed her way through the phonebook.

    The average age of a US woman on the day of her first marriage is 27.

    What do you think that average woman has been doing since she got out of high school at 18?

    • Agree: ScottC
    • Replies: @Rosie
  149. Jay Fink says:
    @Pericles

    They wanted commitment but they picked men who didn’t want it themselves. Women used to be better at differentiating between a cad and a dad. Today they will pick the cad no matter what and hope for the best.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  150. Rosie says:

    Ok so where are the incentives? What does the risk/reward look like?

    This is precisely why the manosphere is absurd. It’s just a bunch of petulant man-children demanding that women bear all the risk of family formation.

    If I may, if you really care about men’s wellbeing, perhaps you ought to try to make some constructive, realistic suggestions as to how that might be accomplished. Of course, forced prostitution is a non-starter.

  151. Rosie says:
    @Mr. Rational

    I’d like to see the entire Sackler family fortune divided among that family’s victims, and the Sacklers reduced to penury for 3 generations. They deserve it.

    I don’t disagree, but before heroin, it was alcohol. The Temperance ladies had a point.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  152. Rosie says:
    @Jay Fink

    If weight is a choice and within a person’s control to a large degree it is strange that so many women would choose to be obese.

    Obesity is highly heritable. Twins reared apart are almost as congruent for obesity as twins reared together.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199005243222102

  153. “Stopping at ‘involuntary celibate’ would be lacking, as you note above and others have noted elsewhere, hence volcel.”

    Oy. Well, the incel issue seems to be a failure to accomplish the task for want of a partner . . . That’s not the same as practicing celibacy, it lacks any intent of curbing the desire.

    I am quibbling here, petty turf issues, maybe. But there are clear differences between incel and those who choose celibacy for any number of reasons regardless of willing partners or opportunities.

  154. Tusk says:
    @Thomm

    Hey Thomm would you rather have sex with Buck Angel or Bailey Jay? If you don’t answer either one I’ll assume it’s Buck since you’re straight and all.

    • Replies: @Thomm
  155. Thomm says:
    @Tusk

    False equivalency.

    Again, you just openly admitted that you would rather have sex with a white man than a black woman, if those were the only two choices available and you had to pick one.

    Hey, 40% of White Trashionalists are like you, so you are not alone. You are pretty much in the mainstream for your subculture.

    • Replies: @Tusk
  156. @Tusk

    I should clarify, “incel” in this context means no sex in the last 12 months, not (necessarily) lifelong inceldom.

  157. Tusk says:
    @Thomm

    You can try to avoid the question if you want 🙂
    But I said if you didn’t answer it would be buck 🙂
    Thanks for answering you’d rather get a piece of Buck Angel 🙂

  158. @German_reader

    How many people are aware of that, though? When the 40 year old virgin movie came out, it was playing on a prejudice that was already deeply embedded and embraced.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  159. @Daniel Williams

    I’d go to the poorhouse for my kids. I’d go to the gallows for them.

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
  160. @Jay Fink

    3rd grade dropout? Wha?

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
  161. @Not My Economy

    Social class is self-reported, yes, though it correlates strongly with educational attainment and income.

  162. @Not My Economy

    I’m finally doing COTW starting this weekend. This is it. So much profundity in so few words.

    It’s well documented that many animals refuse to breed in captivity.

    • Agree: Not My Economy
  163. anon[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ghak

    Why hasn’t anybody raised the point that a majority, or a vast majority of incel men are likely Asperger’s sufferers?

    Because it isn’t true?

  164. @Twinkie

    I’m torn between my appreciation of Fabian tactics and of your insight.

    In seriousness, I agree completely.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  165. Jay Fink says:
    @dfordoom

    Interesting. It is true for me. My teen years were in the 80s and the women of that era set the standard for what I find attractive. I loved the big hair and the whole glam look that was popular in the 80s. The natural look for women which has been popular in recent decades and which a lot of guys prefer is underwhelming to me.

    As for 80s music. Some of it I still like but a lot of it sounds ridiculously overproduced to me.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    , @Feryl
  166. @Daniel Williams

    Don Henley knows:

    So oftentimes it happens…

  167. @dfordoom

    Instead, they think putting a screen on the wall and having the caged tiger watch a NatGeo special on Netflix showing tigers mating in the wild will do the trick.

    • Agree: Tusk
  168. @Thomm

    Nowhere near 1-in-5 whites are white nationalists, though we appreciate an illustration of the observation that sexually unsuccessful men are the object of ridicule and disdain.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    , @Thomm
  169. @neutral
    Because by the iron laws of nature men are easy and women are not on average. A woman can get a man if she wants, does not matter how unattractive she is (obviously not the prince charming of her dreams).

    You make it sound like women are living it up in today’s society which is absurd. There are lonely single women everywhere.

    Yes technically a woman can get a man as in have sex with some random guy at the bar.

    But that doesn’t mean she will get the relationship she desires. Women don’t have the same sex drive as men so it’s not an equivalent level of fulfillment. I also think these incels overestimate how much sex will improve their lives.

    The real problem is that our society is in a state of mass indoctrination and delusion because of liberalism. Both women and men are told all sorts of fables about race and gender that originate from liberal resentment of nature (inequality) and especially Whites. These fables lead to unhealthy outlooks and decision making in both genders.

    Our society has all kinds of problems and from my view on the ground I’m not convinced that women have it better than men. The wealthy and deluded are the ones that benefit in this society regardless of gender.

    What we need to do is focus on liberalism and not engage in gender wars. If society stops believing in liberalism then the natural order will return and most of these problems will go away. If you think this means a return to conservatism then you are wrong. Conservatism is heavily tied to the establishment and has proven itself too weak to challenge liberalism. In fact establishment conservatism has adopted some of the worst elements of liberalism.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Tusk
    , @anon
  170. @Sam Coulton

    That’s my impression in general, though it seems like today there is something of a bimodal distribution. There are a sizable number of men who are today built like no human before 1950 or so had ever been built like in the entire history of humanity.

  171. Squid says:
    @follyofwar

    If it’s Lydia, an admiral.

  172. anon[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Johnson

    You make it sound like women are living it up in today’s society which is absurd. There are lonely single women everywhere.

    That varies with age. Women in the “party years” from 18 to about 25-27? Not lonely. Not at all.
    Women in the “marriage panic” years of about 27 to 35? Not lonely either, plenty of girl friends and most of them will find a man. Still willing to get all angry over “catcalling”.

    Women over 40 begin to get a bit lonely, unless they work hard at keeping their looks.
    Once a woman is over 50 she doesn’t get catcalled anymore. She becomes almost as invisible as the ordinary man in his 20’s. Oh, no, how terrible!

    What we need to do is focus on liberalism and not engage in gender wars.

    Did Rush Limbaugh say that recently or something?

    If society stops believing in liberalism then the natural order will return and most of these problems will go away.

    Lol!
    If you wish hard enough you will get a pony for Christmas, too!

  173. @Jay Fink

    I was a kid in the ’80s and a teen in the ’90s. I didn’t care much for the ’90s but I often look back to the ’80s as a time when things seemed less out of control. As far as ’80s youth culture and music go, I often phrase it as “a time when men could be sensitive without being effeminate, and women could be spunky without being butch.”

    However, I think the claim about women being less attractive in other time periods is not quite true. Rather, what’s happening is that, when you look at a picture of a woman from the past, you’re seeing her from a vast psychological distance and therefore by a cooler, more Apollonian light.

    A traveler to new city sees the city as something outside himself; sees it as it relates to objectivity and knowledge, and consequently feels quite free of its demands. He is momentarily a grand aristocrat who almost has the run of the place. He may find it menacing and dirty or brimming with possibility as the case may be, but he doesn’t have to submit to it. The denizen of the city, on the other hand, whose will is entirely entangled with its daily trouble and strife, sees the same old streets, his job, his wife, the occasion of a thousand burdens and disappointments. He sees it according to passion and subjectivity and is not free of it.

    When we look at a psychologically distant woman, a non-living woman who is unknown to us and whose fashions and manners are foreign to us, we see the will-less, “objective” truth about women—namely that women are plain, like the peahen. They are drab and muted and altogether less expressive then men, and they seem to constantly wear a look of vague discomfort or depression. In order to become attracted to these creatures, it takes not only a burst of male hormones but, more fundamentally, an entire psycho-social milieu that is articulated in words and gestures, dress, mannerisms, expectations, the whole interweave of active life.

    In old pictures, what’s left is only the stones. We are in pictures what the pyramids are to the courts of the pharaohs, what the ruined amphitheater is to a production of Sophocles.

  174. @Audacious Epigone

    I think anyone with a lick of sense would agree that having children is more rewarding than having a lot of money. You can always get more money.

    • Replies: @Tusk
    , @YetAnotherAnon
  175. Tusk says:
    @John Johnson

    Indeed. Male vs female needs are very different so everyone who implies sex = fulfillment is looking at things the wrong way. Men and women are often opposites in many respects, for example: If a woman cheated on a man and said “It didn’t mean anything” a man would/should upset the man, because it is the opposite of what he wants to hear but it is what shewould like to hear if the stuation was reversed. For men the anger is more primal, base sexual urges and longing, whereas for women it is intimate, it is being wanted. The whole “why won’t women have sex with me” is retarded because they’re addressing only one aspect of the male-female relations spectrum.

    So yes, a woman could go to a bar and go home with someone, but it isn’t what she fully needs or wants. The same way men get upset at ‘being friendzoned’ in that the don’t get the aspect that they need, obviously sex. Considering that a relationship is a combination of these two things BOTH men and women are losing out in the current dynamic with only a small portion of hedonistic women benfiting.

    And I’ll agree with you on conservatism. Conservatism has done no good because tomorrows conservatives will always be yesterdays liberals. I no longer even regard conservatives as ‘right wing’ as the faster they are gone the better for everyone.

  176. anon[271] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Johnson

    You make it sound like women are living it up in today’s society which is absurd. There are lonely single women everywhere.

    That varies with age. Women in the “party years” from 18 to about 25-27? Not lonely. Not at all.
    Women in the “marriage panic” years of about 27 to 35? Not lonely either, plenty of girl friends and most of them will find a man. Still willing to get all angry over “catcalling”.

    Women over 40 begin to get a bit lonely, unless they work hard at keeping their looks.
    Once a woman is over 50 she doesn’t get catcalled anymore. She becomes almost as invisible as the ordinary man in his 20’s. Oh, no, how terrible!

    What we need to do is focus on liberalism and not engage in gender wars.

    Did Rush Limbaugh say that recently or something?

    If society stops believing in liberalism then the natural order will return and most of these problems will go away.

    Lol!
    If you wish hard enough you will get a pony for Christmas, too!

  177. @Rosie

    13-15% of middle and upper class people still seems like a big percentage.

    So much for “female hypergamy.”

    When anthropologists talk about hypergamy, they mean a preference for a person of higher social class or wealth.

    When we talk about hypergamy, we mean a preference for attractive men, charming rogues, “players”.

    I am not surprised that 15% of men of all classes are too unattractive to have sex (plus a further 15% of the underclass).

  178. Tusk says:
    @Daniel Williams

    The point of money is to be spent. That is its function and its end, so why cry when it is gone? Having children and propagating the future is a joy in of itself and as such is immediately fulfilling as it is the means and the end. What is fulfulling about money? If you use it you lose it, but one might say “when I save money I can buy whatever I want whenever I want” and in this case wealth is like a ripple on a pond, expanding, the more money I have the more or more expansive things I can buy! Ooh! Now I have even more money, I didn’t buy those other things but now I can buy more and more and more expensive things if I want! It’s like climbing an eternal staircase to nowhere. Those who focus on wealth accumlation as an end are like junkies “just another $5, just another $100, just another $1k, my bank is going to look and feel so amazing.”

    There is of course the practical reality of money, having enough for emergencies, for the future, for expenses, but this is money you don’t really have because it has a goal, it is going to spent and dissapear. The millionaires money that grows for the sake of growing sits idle for that is all it is for, to be shown off and potentially be bragged about.

    I quote Edward Abbey:

    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

    Such is true for wealth.

  179. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    I’m torn between my appreciation of Fabian tactics and of your insight.

    Strategic caution and tactical aggression are not mutually exclusive.

  180. jpp says:

    One thing I don’t understand about this whole ‘incel’ business is how the sexlessness / singletude / celibacy which is attributed to afflict males doesn’t ultimately engender an equal and opposite reaction from females which should force the problem to be self resolving. There are, in western countries, slightly more females than there are males,though the ratio is approximately equal. When one accounts for the relatively greater share of males as compared to females who suffer genetic illnesses, become incarcerated, become disqualified from the dating market perforce of extreme behaviors, this ratio evens out even more. Most women, like most men, I so submit, do not want to die alone. And while most women, unlike most men, can effortlessly attract a partner in their youth, or, as some allege, partake of ‘hypergamy’, or attract a ‘hot guy’ at the bar on a Saturday night, the preponderance of women, by simple mathematical necessity, cannot all settle down with the top 10% of men (assuming that polygamy is not operative, which it largely isn’t). Doesn’t this mean that women will have to settle down with the surplus of hitherto sexless men at some point if they wish to undertake their middle age and elderly periods of their lives with a partner (which I assume, most do). Under this construal, perhaps many men will have to endure sexlessness in their twenties / early thirties, but most should be able to find a woman by about age 40.

  181. @Rosie

    Whence the assumption that only men can be “incels”?

    It seems to me the notion of involuntary celibacy assumes that women who don’t have a partner are at fault for holding out, while men without a partner are innocent victims.

    There is no warrant for this assumption.

    Agreed, there is no warrant for this assumption.

    However, reality is shades of grey (he he). The woman who is holding out for Mr Wonderful finally meets him, and he pumps and dumps her. She goes back to “holding out”; rinse; repeat. Now, is she the innocent victim of a succession of pickup artists? Or does she exemplify the PUA idea that for certain women “five minutes of alpha is better than a lifetime of beta”? If we try to avoid moral judgments or attributions of fault, perhaps she is she wired so she is capable of responding only to the one man in a hundred who is an expert at seduction. The kind of man who is least likely to stick around.

    Is the incel man an innocent victim of women’s disdain? Or is he a contemptible loser? Perhaps in reality he was simply not at the front of the queue when the social graces were handed out.

    People are their own worst enemies, but it is easier for them to blame half the human race than to accept responsibility for their failures.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  182. @Audacious Epigone

    Nowhere near 1-in-5 whites are white nationalists

    All are when shopping for real estate.

    Find the non-racist whites on this map…

  183. Jay Fink says:
    @neutral

    You say the laws of nature but I think culture plays a bigger role than you think. Keep in mind there are more incels now than just a couple of decades ago, nature cannot change that quickly.

    I also disagree that incels can’t get any woman ever. Part of it is they put in no effort whatsoever.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @neutral
  184. Talha says:
    @Jay Fink

    Part of it is they put in no effort whatsoever.

    And I think they might be setting standards too high. I remember watching one of those videos that the Elliot guy put out. It seems he was pissed about these sorority “Staceys” that weren’t giving him the time of day, but never mentioned anything about looking for a Becky or even settling for a Margaret or Hilda.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Audacious Epigone
  185. Dumbo says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    With lifespans getting longer, there are an increasing number of malingering individuals clogging up the pipeline and ablating the reproductive drive.

    I don’t know what you mean by that? The relatively larger number of old people in advanced societies such as Japan is just a reflection of the lower fertility rate among the young. Even with longer lifespans, this would not be a problem if young people were still reproducing at large rates. And in any case larger lifespans do not affect younger people “reproductive drive”. (Unless you mean that younger people have to work to pay for pensions and Medicare etc and so have less money to buy a house and afford a family?)

    Anyway, personally for me lower population would not be a problem, I think it would be better for the planet and even for mankind if there were less people in the world. The real problem is that really what we are seeing is a culling in the population of whites/Europeans, with a (relative) increase of other races/cultures. That is the really worrying issue. For me, at least.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  186. Dumbo says:

    There is no theme that is more depressing than those about modern dating / “incels”.

    Incels have always existed but now the problem is really exacerbated by several contradictory factors:

    a) sexualization or even “pornification” of popular culture;
    b) women having less constraints due to technology (pill etc), financial independence and loss of religious moral;
    c) increasing secular society which focuses only on the individual and not on society’s mores or on the individual duties
    d) technology reducing actual social contact

    So, now the tendency is to marry late, have kids, then find out that your partner is imperfect and divorce. Or simply to be an incel and never marry. It affects both sexes, but it is worst for the average male than for the average woman, of course, since they have less choice. I think before this was controlled by the woman not having financial independence and by society looking down on women being whores.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  187. Jay Fink says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Her mother and stepdad demanded she quit school in the 3rd grade to do chores around the house (isn’t that illegal?) She has some type of stunted personality where sbe has the demeanor of a little girl even if she is an adult woman. Her parents don’t work and live off the funds of her paycheck along with some welfare benefits. She would like to get married to escape all this but no men want her.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  188. Dumbo says:

    Now for a possible solution.

    Some countries such as Japan would do well to return to arranged or semi-arranged marriages. It worked for them until recently, and I think it is more functional for them than Western-style “choose your own mate for love or personal compatibility”.

    For the West it is more complicated. I would suggest a return to Christian morality but this seems unlikely, at least for now. So that leaves us with very few options.

    I think a possible solution would be to prohibit or severely limit porn, to reduce the dependance on technology, to create more options for socialization than online dating (terrible for males), and of course to completely destroy feminism, which is a cancer. There is probably nothing that has made men (and women!) as unhappy as feminism, especially third-wave feminism.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Mark G.
  189. SafeNow says:

    The celibate (or often-celibate) man chooses (consciously or subconsciously) celibacy for the reasons listed in a comment, but an additional reason must be noted. Metaphor alert. As a chess player, I learned that often, the instant I completed my move, suddenly the position looked very different than it had looked minutes before. The celibate man is one who is very adept at projecting his thinking forward to accurately and honestly imagine what the relationship, his feelings, will look like the instant after he has yielded to the “biological imperative” and the “limbic brain” has given way to the normal brain.

  190. dfordoom says: • Website
    @dc.sunsets

    Tattoos, especially visible ones or banal images, are a hallmark of herding behavior impulsivity.

    Yup. Tattoos are a definite red flag.

  191. Rosie says:
    @anon

    What do you think that average woman has been doing since she got out of high school at 18?

    She probably spent at least a couple of years living with the very boyfriend she wound up marrying.

    • Replies: @anon
  192. @Talha

    Sexless marriage is the female equivalent of men abandoning the family. Worse though because it’s like abandoning the family while still making the exact same demands on it.

    Like a guy who walked out on his wife and offered no financial support or companionship… but still showed up there nightly indignantly expecting laundry done and dinner on the table.

  193. WHAT says:
    @Tusk

    Thomm the streetshitter can`t into white communications in general, and here you are expecting nuanced understanding!

    • Replies: @Tusk
  194. neutral says:
    @Jay Fink

    In the past things like war and other violent behaviour would have reduced a certain amount of males, this number is close to zero now. I did mention that the jewish world order also does play a role, they eliminated things like monogamy and religion which did play a certain role in reducing sexual inequality as a societal problem.

  195. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    If you play, you might win.

    That’s how gamblers think. OK, I’ve gambled away my money and the house and I had to sell the car and my bookie is threatening to send some guys out to break my legs but my luck is going to change any time now. I just know it.

    If you play and you lose you can really really lose big-time.

    So I can understand why some people just walk away from the table. I’m not saying it’s the right thing to do, but I can understand it.

  196. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    So you say. I’ve not seen any evidence to suggest that unattractive women have any more luck getting what they want (commitment) than unattractive men have getting what they want (sex).

    It hardly matters that it is easier for us to get what you want.

    I’d definitely have to agree with that last sentence of yours.

  197. Tusk says:
    @WHAT

    Yes I actually have him as a blocked commentator to stop seeing his spam all over the thread, but when I looked at what someone else said in reply to him I couldn’t resist having a laugh. Oh the temptations.

    • Replies: @WHAT
  198. @Rosie

    I think from “having to have your father’s consent after you’ve chosen” to “getting raped on a regular basis for the rest of your life” is a pretty large logical leap, even for Rosie.

  199. SFG says:
    @Rosie

    Agreed. A man can get married any time he wants.

    It’s a very dangerous game these days, but that’s another story.

  200. SFG says:
    @Rosie

    Did they do arranged marriages in the West? Islam and India, that’s another story.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  201. JackOH says:
    @The Alarmist

    Yep. Best sex I ever had was with a prostitute.

    If I’d known as a youngster the unsatisfactory women I attracted–clingers, manipulators, and, improbably, Appalachian-“country” women–and if prostitution were a little more respectable, it would have been a good alternative for sexual relief.

    In my 60s now and single, I really don’t give a shit. And, FWIW, the worst demographic for men to be in for dating and mating is High Education-Low Income. Your 1500-book library, your mess of classical records and your knack at throwing polysyllabic words easily about just makes you a weird-ass in the eyes of a potential lover.

    The most exciting woman I’ve met in recent years looks a half-generation younger than she is, has a schoolgirl figure, dresses impeccably, achieved rank as an Army nurse, is deeply religious, and hasn’t owned a TV since the 1980s. She also has more effortless charm in her little finger than most of the thonged-up coeds at our local State U.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  202. @Daniel Williams

    “I think anyone with a lick of sense would agree that having children is more rewarding than having a lot of money. You can always get more money.”

    Up to a point. Having children and being poor must be extremely stressful. As well as the worry about the car or boiler breaking down, the electricity bill arriving, losing your house if made redundant etc, you’ve got the pressure of peer groups – your wife’s (‘Gemma got taken to Venice for her birthday‘) and your kids’ (‘Can I have a party like the one David had?‘).

    You can see why poor couples break up, although it only IMHO makes them poorer.

    When you’re single and poor the only one exerting pressure is yourself. I restricted spending accordingly (I did miss out on holidays with uni friends who were earning more).

    I changed jobs (for the money) after I met my wife, who’d had a comfortable upbringing and had never bought a house or saved either. I’d been too poor to save, but saved a lot when I started earning decent money.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  203. @Audacious Epigone

    When the 40 year old virgin movie came out, it was playing on a prejudice

    I’ve never seen that movie, but as far as I understand the protagonist is portrayed as a basically decent and sympathetic character, maybe a bit odd, but not dangerous. “Incels” have a rather different reputation, as misogynist psychos who could potentially commit acts of mass murder. Just google something like “incels are scum” and you’ll see what I mean.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  204. SFG says:
    @Daniel Williams

    If you want an old adage (quite proper for a conservative), there’s the line about dying free rather than living as a slave.

    Now if you marry and have the kids and stay together, great. Someone like Audacious Epigone or Twinkie who’s played the game and won obviously did it right. Even past the selfish reasons, the next generation has to come from somewhere. The whole point is you can wind up paying a huge portion of your income working for someone else to live off you through alimony and never see the kids.

    The other thing is, I suspect if you’re below a certain level of attractiveness the goods on offer to you simply aren’t worth it. Lots of guys would rather stay alone than have to wake up to a 300-pounder every day, and I can definitely see a woman passing on a guy with a criminal record or who sits around the house all day playing video games or doing drugs.

  205. @YetAnotherAnon

    I changed jobs (for the money) after I met my wife, who’d had a comfortable upbringing and had never bought a house or saved either. I’d been too poor to save, but saved a lot when I started earning decent money.

    I hear you. I bought an old Chateau to keep my woman busy, but could do that only because I was earning enough to support a couple money-pits.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  206. @Rosie

    before heroin, it was alcohol. The Temperance ladies had a point.

    And created perhaps THE most predictable disaster of policy ever enacted upon the USA (though it’s not like Hart-Celler and “civil rights” aren’t solidly in the running).

    It would have been so much better if some bar owner had given the battleaxe Carrie Nation a load of buckshot.

    • Agree: WHAT
    • Replies: @Rosie
  207. @Talha

    For every Berkowitz explaining why people have less sex, there will be a Ben Shapiro explaining why people have too much sex. Because (((opposites))) attract in their disdain for the trades and a decent job. Stop wasting your time with pulp science, the equivalent of pulp fiction. Psychology, sociology, economics are not sciences, but collections of stories. You would learn as much truth about incels or anything else, if you’d be watching The Twilight Zone.

  208. @Sam Coulton

    Nature’s laws are inviolable.

    What do you get when you subsidize something? MORE OF IT.

    What is subsidized today?
    –Stupid people having more kids.
    –Ugly people having more kids.

    What is punished today?
    –Smart people having kids. (They’re too busy either spending their fertile years getting college degrees and climbing the corporate ladder [i.e., the girls are] or paying the taxes that subsidize the stupid and ugly kids of stupid and ugly people.)

    Anyone utterly STUPID enough to think that human breeding patterns are irrelevant when the breeding patterns of every other animal on Earth are relevant to the point of acclamation?

    Look around. Every fashionable trend leads to dumber, weaker, more useless people. Nature’s suicide switch…for any animal species that grossly overfills and spills over its ecological niche.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  209. @Rosie

    (Facepalm.)

    Your comment is why most women should be managed by their fathers until marriage, and by their husbands after. The father can see what’s there in a man, even if his daughter is lost in estrogen fog.

    Your comment could be rephrased to read, “Women are incapable of discernment when it comes to men, and therefore should not be left to make life-altering decisions regarding them.”

    A traditional society where men play an active role in determining who their daughters marry (and where a cad/PUA who tries to charm the panties off a girl courts a shallow grave courtesy of her father) makes a lot of sense, in your context.

    Daughters obviously learn nothing from their mothers about men. Women obviously are poor judges of men in general, and by extension, poor judges about a whole host of other subjects. (Don’t get me started about the whole “equality” fantasy; I’m approaching old age but could still beat the living hell out of any woman on Earth–save perhaps the tranny Williams “sisters”–but very few women seem to realize just how much their safety at all times rests ENTIRELY on male restraint and self-control.)

    Thanks for your comment. It was edifying.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    , @Corvinus
  210. @iffen

    This may be true for people who feel lonely, but it does not apply to people who do not experience loneliness. I have never “felt” lonely for even 2 minutes out of my 70 years.

    Different strokes.

    I like solitude on occasion and spent a lot of my formative years in relative isolation, but I sure as hell do appreciate my wife. The “encyclopedic dialog” we share is the fulcrum on which most of my insights in life levered.

    Unless we check out together in a fiery plane crash or asteroid strike, one of us will be left by the other someday. I give the survivor about two months…. This is the trade-off of a marriage-partnership that is extremely deep and surrounded by thick walls.

    Humans are social animals. At least, most of us are, and that still includes people like me who love only one, cherish a few and largely can’t stand the rest.

  211. @The Alarmist

    “a couple money-pits”

    House and spouse I presume.

    There’s no doubt (see JackOH above) that retail is cheaper. But if you want to raise a family wholesale seems to be the only way.

  212. @dc.sunsets

    If it’s any consolation, just when our geniuses have figured out new ways to keep stupid people from accidentally killing themselves, some greater genius steps in with a new agent or catalyst of natural selection, like the smartphone.

    • LOL: dc.sunsets
  213. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    This, of course, is the real answer to Fermi’s Paradox that everyone is discussing over at Anatoly’s thread:
    Advanced alien civilization has not reached us because they became hyper-liberal and pozzed and had a cataclysmic demographic collapse from which they never recovered.

    The frightening thing is that this hypothesis may be no joke. It may well be correct!

    What if the rise of an advanced technological civilisation is something that no society, human or alien, can survive?

    We could call this Talha’s Law.

    • Replies: @Talha
  214. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    We could call this Talha’s Law.

    As far as I can tell, I don’t think I’ve seen this particular solution being proposed before to the Paradox – at least not publicly. This may of course be related to it being controversial and definitely NOT politically correct.

    I’d personally call it; the Pozz Hypothesis.

    Or just the Hypozzthesis.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @Twodees Partain
  215. WHAT says:
    @Rosie

    You can`t decide which shoes to wear tomorrow lol.
    Coverture is coming back regardless of your wishes, and pray to God it is white.

  216. WHAT says:
    @Tusk

    I had a bit of a lulz when I saw the all too familliar verbal streetshittery at Dalrock`s, of all places. One wonders if this dravidian can`t stop babbling about them horrible WNs irl as well.

  217. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    Not phrased in the same way, but over at SF writer Michael Flynn’s blog:

    https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2012/11/illegal-aliens.html

    The von Neumans got ’em (and are coming our way).
    They all became dependent on government handouts and then the government went bankrupt.
    They mucked up their environment a bit too much.
    The glaciers got ’em.
    They genetically modified themselves and screwed up, bad.
    The Morlocks really didn’t like the Eloi.
    They adopted an existentialist, materialist philosophy, saw no reason for going on, and drank the Kool-Aid.
    That trans(humanism) thing didn’t work out so well.
    They went a little too far with contraception and offended the god Darwin.
    They killed too many of their own children. Ditto.

    (These were originally bullet points (and a subset of many more); the formatting didn’t transfer over.)

    I doubt these speculations were original with Flynn either.

    But your wording is good and “hypozthesis” a good coinage. I think you also coined “apozcalypse” at some time in the past, no?

    • Replies: @Talha
  218. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    Ok thanks for that input – I haven’t come across that one before. I’m pretty sure others have speculated in this vein (which is why I didn’t think I deserved undue credit), but I don’t think it is something that is politically correct to shout from the roof tops given our current political climate.

    The Koolaid Hypothesis also works well.

    I may have mentioned apozzcalypse here before – not sure if anyone else has used that before. 🤔

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  219. dfordoom says: • Website
    @dc.sunsets

    Since the “sexual revolution” of the 1960’s, both men and women have been ruined. Only a few avoided the deal-breaker experiences of our Anything Goes culture.

    Agreed.

  220. DRA says:

    I have read many of the comments, and am astounded at how blessed I have been!

  221. @dc.sunsets
    Daughters obviously learn nothing from their mothers about men. Women obviously are poor judges of men in general, and by extension, poor judges about a whole host of other subjects.

    I wouldn’t go that far. The female nature certainly has a problematic side where they can be attracted to the strong even if the strong is amoral or unreliable. There was a recent book about the French resistance and how it was grossly exaggerated and in reality a lot of the women took German boyfriends. This is just some deep recess in their brains deciding that their genes would be better off with the conquerors.

    This aspect of female nature alone would be manageable but we have a religion called liberalism that hath declared that women are always correct in their instincts and especially in relationships. Society tells them to trust any feeling they have when they should be taught that their genes can get them in trouble.

    So it’s double damaging. Liberalism tries to suppress any discussion of female nature while telling society that female instincts are more trustworthy than male, while ironically also telling society that gender doesn’t exist except for parts.

  222. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Feryl

    Personally I blame drugs (as does Dennis Leary) for all the “only in the 70’s” blunders.

    Drugs have been responsible for much of the damage our society has suffered. Of course the type of drugs is also significant. In the late 60s up to the late 70s cannabis and LSD were very fashionable and they were definitely catastrophic. In Australia at least that started to change in the late 70s as speed and cocaine became more fashionable.

    But then I’m a Late Boomer so I was a punk, not a hippie. We loathed and despised everything about hippie culture, including their choice of drugs.

    Cannabis and LSD have permanent effects on the personality. Speed and coke can make you just as crazy but when you stop using them you more or less return to normality.

    The cannabis and LSD usage by the hippie generation (mostly born 1935 to 1955) was a major societal disaster. 80s drug culture was probably marginally less destructive. It was still bad, but not as bad.

    So basically I agree with you.

    The hippies did an unbelievable amount of damage. I believe it was at least partly because the drug usage of the hippies was encouraged by pop culture (Hollywood, pop music, etc) and encouraged by lax enforcement of drug laws.

  223. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jay Fink

    Women used to be better at differentiating between a cad and a dad. Today they will pick the cad no matter what and hope for the best.

    That kind of poor judgment has been encouraged to an incredible extent by popular culture, especially by movies (going right back to the 1930s). The idea that you choose a partner because you’re swept away by romantic fantasies and lust, rather than looking for someone who would actually be a good life partner. The whole cult of Love Conquers All.

    It has had a disastrous effect on women but it’s been very bad for men as well.

    • Replies: @Talha
  224. @dc.sunsets
    Anyone utterly STUPID enough to think that human breeding patterns are irrelevant when the breeding patterns of every other animal on Earth are relevant to the point of acclamation?

    Well that includes most politicians and journalists unfortunately. Also add in entire college departments that pretend to study society.

    We all know that liberals stick their heads in the sand when it comes to human genetics. Their religion is basically against even entertaining the *remote possibility* that it might matter.

    But unfortunately the conservatives of the west have bought into most of gene denial. They seem to think that only the market matters.

    There are a lot of smart people that buy into this mass delusion. In fact people with high intelligence and involved in politics might be more vulnerable than average. Solving social problems becomes much easier if genes don’t matter.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  225. dfordoom says: • Website
    @SFG

    Did they do arranged marriages in the West?

    Arranged marriages are often misunderstood. There’s a huge difference between forced marriages and a situation where parents arrange for their offspring to meet someone they consider suitable but the son/daughter can still veto the match if they dislike the person. Or a situation where parents can veto their offspring’s choice if the person seems wildly unsuitable but the son/daughter can then look for someone else who is more acceptable to the parents.

    Those kinds of arranged marriages, where there’s strong persuasion but no actual compulsion, used to be fairly common in the West. Arranged marriages were standard far the European nobility in the Middle Ages. Forced marriage was forbidden by the Church.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Rosie
  226. Dumbo says:
    @Rosie

    We will decide for ourselves whom we will marry.

    Because white men have been way too nice with them, women got the idea that they can choose to do whatever they want, but this is likely not how it’s going to be forever. Women are much less strong and depend on men for protection, for the creation of civilization, and for almost anything really, their only strength is their sex.

    Patriarchy will come back, even if it is in the form of non-white men enslaving white women. And it’s going to be worse than any white patriarchy. Is it better to be married to some Beta loser you don’t like, or to be a slave in a harem? I guess quite a few women would prefer to be slaves, so they shall get it good and hard.

    I say this with sadness, because I’d rather have a situation with more freedom of choice for both men and women, and with white people marrying other white people. But it is unlikely that the current situation will last for very long.

    • Agree: ScottC
    • Replies: @Rosie
  227. Sexual frustration is probably even worse for a man’s mental health than frustration about money is.

    Is it possible in this day and age for two traditional young white people in their mid or late 20s, both with modest jobs, to get married and begin a family, and get the wife to stay at home if she wishes, when both, due to the folly of youth and our corrupt country, owe student loan debt?

    I know quite a few young men who want very much to get married but who are troubled deeply by onerous and totally awful fiscal burdens.

  228. There are a lot of very partiucular adendums to this discussion. Here’s the reality. And in many ways its sad. So ,many of you find abstinence of such a hurdle, that no one in their right minds can acyually be celibate. There are so many caveats so as to undermine its meaning that its clear — many of find the idea incomprehensible. And yet, some of you actually profess to christian and that I find is the shift in our society. When i first and openly talked about this with students, it was in direct response to some of the near — well pornographic lectures they were getting in classes.

    That they actually had an adult discourage them from relations before wedlock was strange. But they actually engaged in that conversation with serious consideration.

    Today, they very notion is mocked across the board it seems. So instead of any really defense, those that van’t, won’t don’t and never have been or unwilling to admit to the possibility that they were unknown until marriage simply find ways to mock it.

    And that and worse undermine it. There’s not a single thing amiss or untoward about people who operate in this arena. Not one. Most have drives for relations, but not all. I think even the incel dynamic is over played and really reflects the frustrations of teen boys or young man who have yet found someone to actually have a romantic relations with.

    At its core you don’t trust people like me. Namely because you think it’s a statement about you and it isn’t. And no, I have never met a women besides nuns who even have refrained from relations for a year by choice muchless five years as is my minimum standard. All about even among people who should simply don’t have the capacity to defend the matter. And so, lump some, mockery is guised as intellectual pose about incels, a community which appears in my view loaded with a myriad of people who as a group are not accurately defined.

    I don’t consider them as truly celibate, but I am disinclined to consider a lot of the unsupported arguments made here simply because nearly of the comments can’t conceive of or reject that there are people who actually have spent time and effort over a life time limiting and defining their intimate expression.

    There are more virgins than you know or imagine.

    Further, I would like to see the supporting material that demonstrates that incels are bisexual, homosexual or some other imagine variant.

    Dr. Freud on steroids minus the dream theory, save what some of you have cooked up in your imaginations.

    —————————————–
    “Sexual frustration is probably even worse for a man’s mental health than frustration about money is.”

    Curious of the support for this. There is no evidence that lack of physical intimacy has any definite negative impact on one’s mental state. psychiatry makes that claim to mental and physical detriment, but the evidence is mighty thin.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  229. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    The idea that you choose a partner because you’re swept away by romantic fantasies and lust, rather than looking for someone who would actually be a good life partner.

    This is where the father’s input is instrumental. Unfortunately, due to the programming by popular culture, this relationship has been destroyed.

    I remember one real stupid moment in Disney’s Little Mermaid (both me and my daughter laugh about this) where the girl has only seen the prince from afar on a boat and then helps him get ashore after his ship gets busted apart. And when her father finds out she wants to be with him, he gets angry, but she retorts; “Daddy, I love him!”

    We both are laughing; What?! You idiot, you have no clue about this dude – he might be gay or hunt peasants on his land for fun – and you’re fighting your father over this?! Dork.

    The whole cult of Love Conquers All.

    Nietzsche was pretty caustic in his denunciation of this.

    Peace.

  230. Laughing as for alien existence . . .

    Fermi’s speculations are predicated from ignorance and limited

    1. maybe they have and simply don’t know it

    2. maybe they have and don’t want it known

    3. maybe they have and only the governments know it

    4. maybe they have and the abduction tales are real — speaking at least in part to the subject of the article — many apparently impregnated women who have born theoir children

    5. maybe they like us think they are the only one

    6. maybe they know we are here and don’t have the technology to get here

    7. maybe they simply are too busy taking care of their own affairs to care about life elsewhere

    8. there are a myriad of reasons why life elsewhere hasn’t been touch with humans Earth

    Fermi’s limited imagination predicated on the assumptions about intelligence and its progression does vast disservice to the subject

    ———————————

    “But unfortunately the conservatives of the west have bought into most of gene denial. They seem to think that only the market matters.”

    wondering how many conservatives you advance actually believe this — but first define “gene denial”;

  231. res says:
    @Sam Coulton

    The rate of malocclusion/dental defects has been rising, not falling.

    I think you are right, but it would be interesting to see some data on that. Do you think the increase has been large enough to offset (in terms of appearance) the increased use of cosmetic dentistry?

    Two references which might be of interest concerning dental health (I have read the first, but not gotten to the second yet, just took a quick look and the second disagrees with the first on causes):
    https://www.amazon.com/Nutrition-Physical-Degeneration-Weston-Price/dp/0916764206

    Regarding the rest of your comment, AE’s bimodal point is on target.

  232. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    From a guy belonging to a community where arranged marriages are still a thing, this is how it works in most cases. Yes, you get the ones that get headlines where the father demands that his daughter marry her idiot cousin from his village in Bangladesh or something, but the majority of these are as you described and the child retains full veto power. It’s mostly a screening process so that most of the formalities about compatibility are out of the way so that the couple is more likely to be a strong match. Love naturally develops.

    A lot of it really is a reflection on the confidence one has in one’s parents, their values and their judgement; I mean, if your kid automatically says something like “No way would I marry somebody my parents picked!” – then you’ve got some serious underlying lack of confidence in you as a parent that needs to be resolved.

    Peace.

  233. res says:
    @Twinkie

    Worth noting (explicitly) that smoking used to be much more prevalent in the upper classes.

    The current situation with class and smoking presents two puzzles for me.
    1. As you observed, why (and how?) are the people still smoking the obese ones? Is it all just lack of self control?
    2. Given how expensive smoking is now, how does it stay a lower class phenomenon?

    This site has some good data on smoking from 1954-2014
    https://247wallst.com/special-report/2017/06/14/price-of-a-pack-of-cigarettes-the-year-you-were-born/
    For each year, something like (extremes given to see the contrast):

    1954
    > Avg. price per pack: $0.23
    > State and federal cigarette taxes: $0.11
    > Inflation adjusted price: $1.44
    > Annual consumption per capita: 2,380 cigarettes
    > Lung & bronchus cancer deaths: 18.6 per 100,000

    2014
    > Avg. price per pack: $5.84
    > State and federal cigarette taxes: $2.56
    > Inflation adjusted price: $5.35
    > Annual consumption per capita: 845 cigarettes
    > Lung & bronchus cancer deaths: 43.3 per 100,000

    I just wish they would put that data in a spreadsheet. They did do a good job of referencing their data though:

    To determine the cost of a pack of cigarettes the year you were born, 24/7 Wall St. reviewed the average weighted retail price of a pack of cigarettes from the 2015 Tax Burden on Tobacco report from the Federation of Tax Administrators. State and federal cigarette taxes for each year as well as annual consumption per capita also came from this report. Inflation adjusted prices per pack are in chained 2009 dollars. The rate of lung and bronchus cancer deaths came from the American Cancer Society’s Cancer Facts & Figures 2017 report.

    And THE TAX BURDEN ON TOBACCO: Historical Compilation 2014 (376 pages! because it provides per state granularity)
    contains a great deal of tobacco related data (some back to 1865).
    https://www.taxadmin.org/assets/docs/Tobacco/papers/tax_burden_2014.pdf

    One interesting bit of data is in Table 2A showing the upsurge of cigarettes as percent of total tobacco tax collections from 1870-1940.

  234. @Dumbo

    I wasn’t going to get involved in this thread, but I have a compulsion to finish reading through comments under unz articles (until I hit one of Mr. Unz’s 1,000-comment posts).

    Anyway, for a dumbo, you lay out some real truths! Thank you.

  235. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Ernest Borgnine won an Oscar for this role – fighting to break out of bachelorhood against the odds. He delivers his classic line here:
    “She’s a dog and I’m a fat, ugly man! Well, all I know is I had a good time last night! I’m gonna have a good time tonight! If we have enough good times together, I’m gonna get down on my knees and I’m gonna beg that girl to marry me! ”

    Peace.

  236. IC says:
    @216

    Obesity rates are a bit skewed, both blacks and hispanics are much more obese.

  237. @German_reader

    Just google something like “incels are scum” and you’ll see what I mean.

    Better yet, visit one of their forums. I did just that after that Rogers kid went postal. What a madhouse. They make hardcore WN 1488ers seems sane in comparison.

    (Well, some of them were actually highly intelligent and lucid. But they had built up an impenetrable wall of excuses for why a satisfying sex life — or indeed any kind of satisfying life — was really an impossibility for people like them.)

    • Replies: @anon
  238. @Talha

    “Or just the Hypozzthesis.”

    I searched in vain for the groan emoji. I had to settle for groaning out loud to myself. 😉

    • Replies: @Talha
  239. Talha says:
    @Twodees Partain

    This would also have been a valid response:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  240. Mark G. says:
    @Dumbo

    Creating more options for socialization would be helpful for males. Formerly many young men would live in small closely knit communities where they would come in regular contact with the same women and get a chance to know them better. They would also have friends and relatives trying to fix them up with mutual acquaintances. Compare that to now when everyone lives in large urban areas where everyone is a stranger and all your old school friends and various relatives are spread out all around the country instead of staying in the town they grew up in as often happened formerly. As you said, online dating is a terrible option for most men. It’s so easy for men to go online, type up a form email, and send it off to fifty women. The women have their email boxes flooded and can’t tell who is really seriously interested and who is not. Their female egos swell up thinking they are really popular, not seeing that the same email is being sent to multiple other women at the same time. When they meet the men, they find many of them are really not that interested in a relationship, get discouraged and drop out of online dating. When everyone lived in small communities, any male who went around propositioning every female would find that the news had spread among the female population what kind of person he was and he would be shunned by most women. This discouraged men from doing that and made it easier for men and women who were actually interested in each other find each other.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
    , @Art Deco
  241. @dfordoom

    AGREED, on the gambling. I think Las Vegas, even with the government having taken over from the mob, still yields better odds than divorce court for a man.

    People keep commenting that it’s OK, better to have had a kid an lost your money. Yeah, when the wife has custody, you will lose your ability to teach your children well. They can turn out bad with not a damn thing you can do about it – read Steve Sailer’s post on that 7 y/o Texan whose Mom was allowed a family court to chemically change him into a girl, no matter what the Dad had to say about it.

    When you lose the family house and are left with big support payments, you are not in good shape to try again … yet, many men, often the gambling type, have 3 ex-wives. Once the number of ex’s is greater than 1, I have no sympathy, even if you do now hang your hat in Tennessee.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  242. @dfordoom

    AGREED, on the gambling. I think Las Vegas, even with the government having taken over from the mob, still yields better odds than divorce court for a man.

    People keep commenting that it’s OK, better to have had a kid an lost your money. Yeah, when the wife has custody, you will lose your ability to teach your children well. They can turn out bad with not a damn thing you can do about it – read Steve Sailer’s post on that 7 y/o Texan whose Mom was allowed a family court to chemically change him into a girl, no matter what the Dad had to say about it.

    When you lose the family house and are left with big support payments, you are not in good shape to try again … yet, many men, often the gambling type, have 3 ex-wives. Once the number of ex’s is greater than 1, I have no sympathy, even if you do now hang your hat in Tennessee.

  243. @dfordoom

    AGREED, on the gambling. I think Las Vegas, even with the government having taken over from the mob, still yields better odds than divorce court for a man.

    People keep commenting that it’s OK, better to have had a kid an lost your money. Yeah, when the wife has custody, you will lose your ability to teach your children well. They can turn out bad with not a damn thing you can do about it – read Steve Sailer’s post on that 7 y/o Texan whose Mom was allowed a family court to chemically change him into a girl, no matter what the Dad had to say about it.

    When you lose the family house and are left with big support payments, you are not in good shape to try again … yet, many men, often the gambling type, have 3 ex-wives. Once the number of ex’s is greater than 1, I have no sympathy, even if you do now hang your hat in Tennessee.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @Achmed E. Newman
  244. @ScottC

    I beg to disagree. The population of marriageable women back then included plenty of young widows, orphans and girls separated from their families. Many young single women crossed the Atlantic on their own initiative, like the Irish and Scottish girls who went to America to become servants, teachers and workers in the early factories. They didn’t have male authority figures telling them whom they should marry.

    • Replies: @ScottC
  245. @dfordoom

    “Cannabis and LSD have permanent effects on the personality. Speed and coke can make you just as crazy but when you stop using them you more or less return to normality.”

    That may be true for those who use cocaine and meth for a short time, but it certainly isn’t true for addicts. Cocaine and meth addicts who get clean don’t return to normal by any means. Both of those drugs have permanent effects on the personalities of the addicts and that is observable in those who have been clean for years.

    The main difference between cannabis/psychedelics and cocaine/meth is that it’s very common for users of cocaine and meth to engage in violent acts against others, while the cannabis/psychedelics users aren’t inclined toward violence nearly as often.

    I would say that speed and coke make you much crazier and there’s a big chance that you will do something under their influence that gets you imprisoned or even executed. Just my opinion based on observation.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  246. Where on earth are “materially poor people . . . objects of sympathy and compassion”?

    You’ve got to be kidding. In the real world, the poor are abused and accused of causing their own poverty.

    Also, most people in the world have no sex. No-one wants to admit it. But think about it: the old, the young, and the ugly, in other words the majority of people in the world, all do not have sex and are probably a little annoyed of having sexuality shoved down their throats in the media all the time.

  247. Jay Fink says:
    @dc.sunsets

    You say women learn nothing from their mothers about men. There are many mothers who know their daughters are involved with bad men and try to warn them and tell them to dump them. The problem is the daughters never listen, never!

  248. @Mark G.

    Formerly many young men would live in small closely knit communities where they would come in regular contact with the same women and get a chance to know them better. They would also have friends and relatives trying to fix them up with mutual acquaintances.

    Those were great days. When I grew up young men worked together to make sure the geeks or the less attractive guys still had plenty of dates–it was a rite of passage that was just a part of growing up–and there were plenty of young women in town available and interested. Incels were true rarities in that type of setting.

    This is a community problem, and can only be fixed if high trust communities can become the norm rather than the exception.

  249. iffen says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    The high cost of family formation is out of reach for many working class people and it is killing us. It’s going to bring down our entire society if it is not addressed. Even if the UMC doesn’t like proles (and they don’t) and don’t want to have anything to do with them, they need to come to understand that the pyramid will not stand if the base is destroyed.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  250. anon[187] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    Better yet, visit one of their forums.

    Groupthink and self pity are very strong. Incel fora are like a proverbial crab bucket.

  251. anon[187] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    She probably spent at least a couple of years living with the very boyfriend she wound up marrying.

    And before that she was doing what for 7 years? Oh, I know; reading books, thinking thoughts, and traveling to “collect experiences”.

    Lol. Collecting something, that’s for sure. The old Boomers can live in the 1980’s, younger men have to live in the current year.

  252. iffen says:
    @Talha

    Love naturally develops.

    Can’t nothing touch us romantics, we be gingerbread men. (Keep an eye out for the fox, just in case.)

    • Replies: @Talha
  253. Art Deco says:
    @Mark G.

    Compare that to now when everyone lives in large urban areas

    They don’t. About 60% of the population lives in core cities or tract-developed suburbs, and some of them live in modest provincial cities w/ fewer than 200,000 people in the built-up area.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  254. @Rosie

    “With orthodontics, teeth whitening, and nose jobs, there are now far more beautiful girls than there were in my generation, and I mean movie star beautiful. ”

    I don’t see this at all. Young women in the USA seem masculine to me these days. I rarely see good looking young women of 18-24 anymore, and I’m not including the rectangular shaped hispanics or hairy, ugly (curry-munching) Indians that are becoming more common.

    Female facial structures are becoming more masculine. I see far more teenaged girls with masculine bone structures in their face. Plastic surgery won’t fix that.

    In the same manner, I see more young men with low testosterone features. Wide hips, narrow shoulders, etc.

    There’s something going on chemically (epigenetically…etc) that is changing the way young people look. I much preferred young women back when I was 20 (a quarter century ago).

    • Replies: @Feryl
    , @anon
  255. nebulafox says:
    @Jay Fink

    I can confirm that unless you are at the absolute bottom of the dating market barrel for some reason (such people do genuinely exist), you can find *a* partner if you have no standards at all. If you are a man, you are likely going to have lower your standards significantly more than a woman in your situation would have to, even for a relationship. (There’s a reason why you’ll see a lot of men putting up with women beneath their level, but not so much the other way around.) That being said, you will eventually stumble upon somebody who will say yes. If you have no standards whatsoever, one “yes” is all you need.

    But believe me: not worth it. Not worth it by a long shot. If you are a mess, you are likely going to have to settle for someone who is also a mess, which will more likely than not lead to a toxic relationship between two drowning people, where all you’ll succeed in is further drowning your partner as he/she further drowns you. Unfortunately, though, in an atomized society that demands further and further socialization to avoid feelings of inferiority yet practically creates more and more isolation, people are so desperate to not be alone that this won’t resonate. It’ll especially not resonate with 18-25 year old men whose nadir of sexual market power happens to unhappily coincide with the height of their biological impulses.

    Yes, I think it would drastically help matters if the modern USA didn’t have a culture that manages to cherry pick and mix the absolute worst aspects of sexual liberalism and conservatism. But ultimately, all you can control is yourself, and obsessing over a project or lifting or something is not just more productive, it is more fun. Even if everything around you is implicitly telling you one thing and explicitly telling you another, that doesn’t mean you aren’t free to do a third, better thing. Etiam si omnes, ego non.

  256. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    I’ve commented on arranged marraiges before so you know my reservations on their unrestricted praise, but that’s not really what I want to mention now; what I did want to mention was that in these sorts of cases even an unmarried person is not particularly likely to die alone, as every family has a few maiden aunts and bachelor uncles who have somehow managed to escape the matchmaking mania of their relatives, and these people serve many useful roles before eventually growing old and dying in the midst of their family. And of course that isn’t even counting the religious community, which can also be an effective support for those who by some mischance of war or disease or emigration or whatnot have little remaining family, as well as a place (at least with Christians) for those who simply are called otherwise than to marry.

    It does mean though that if solitude is your kind of thing it can be very difficult to get.

    • Replies: @Talha
  257. nebulafox says:
    @obwandiyag

    >But think about it: the old, the young, and the ugly, in other words the majority of people in the world, all do not have sex and are probably a little annoyed of having sexuality shoved down their throats in the media all the time.

    Why do I get the strong feeling that part of the “incel” problem is nothing more than having men at the peak of their testosterone frenzy who can’t obtain partners having their focus reinforced on sex and relationships, 24/7? The underlying subtext is that “normal” people are engaging in this otherworldly thing that is the apex of the human experience. The resulting implication is that they are not only missing out: but since they are, what does that make them?

    Of course, the more mature response would be to dismiss this as BS. Sex is fun, but hardly the point of life itself. But come on, people, remember what you were like at 18? And again: the biological aspect of it for men at that specific age range.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @WHAT
  258. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Not only does love naturally develop easier when these details have been already considered and taken care of (family background, cultural compatibility, financial class/status) – I have seen that there are multiple people invested in helping to keep the marriage going. Whereas if your daughter marries some dweeb you never liked in the first place, you breathe a sigh of relief if it falls apart.

    I personally haven’t had much experience in this realm, but my spiritual teachers are often called upon to save literally hundreds of marriages per year. And I’m close enough to them that they share the info.

    One of my main teachers just married off his eldest daughter (in a very humble wedding – which is great because so many people waste tons of money on weddings so he is setting a good standard for the community). The young brother approached her in college (they had seen each other around campus due to being in the Muslims Students Association) and basically asked; salaam, I was wondering if I could get the contact info for your father?

    She basically said; uh, no thanks.

    But when her father heard what happened, he said; no, you shouldn’t be so hasty, and really get me his number so we can talk it over.

    Negotiations began; few months later, they’re hitched.

    Key points: 1) his daughter has a massive respect for her father and his opinion (you have to earn this) and 2) one major way to immediately earn the trust of a woman’s father is to respect his guardianship role and not pursue anything without his permission – that immediately establishes your credentials with regards to – a) trust and b) sincerity.

    For any young men that are actually pursuing women for relationships with a view to marry, try out getting the father involved as soon as possible – give him the respect he deserves as a man; especially if you want to revive a viable patriarchy – that first step starts with you. And when it’s your turn wearing the shoes as the father, you can reasonably expect the young man to respect you as the father as well – what goes around, comes around.

    Peace.

  259. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    these people serve many useful roles before eventually growing old and dying in the midst of their family

    Very true and very important.

    Peace.

  260. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    I may have mentioned apozzcalypse here before – not sure if anyone else has used that before.

    Apozzcalypse. I like that!

  261. @Achmed E. Newman

    As much as I like George Strait, believe me, that was Ron Unz’s fault! When I mashed [PUBLISH], I’d get some note I’d never seen before telling me something about the “Admin Section” and then another weird one. I went back to the page with my text still in the box a couple of times.

    I did not have the 5-minute EDIT window on any of these 3 either, even after it finally took.

    Sorry, people.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  262. Corvinus says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    “Celibacy is an expectation for christians regardless of their goals and plans. Adhering to that is easier and circumstance is a factor. But to assume that celibacy is some manner of ill state would be incorrect.”

    Great point. It brings up this point–it never ceases to amaze how patently pseudo-intellectual system is the sexual-social hierarchy, especially when “Christian manospherists” make a series of subjective behavioral and personality appraisals as its foundational pieces. Any protestation about this label or refusal to act in the prescribed manner brings about a pejorative response. It may be “convenient” for men to articulate what they believe are definitive aspects of their fellow man’s conduct because they subscribe to this hierarchy, but what about those men who find definitive flaws in how those decisions were arrived? What happens when those men challenge the structure by arguing that the “unvarnished truth of the structure” is in reality a set of assumptions predicated on sophistry? Would God truly judge in this exact manner by calling Christian men betas, gammas, and situational alphas?

    There is an alternative model, and a proven one…it is called the Christian Bible, which offers complexity to behavior rather than stereotypes. Manhood develops most appropriately when we pursue the kingdom of God rather than an idol of masculinity itself and all of its worldly trimmings. Upon closer inspection, the men found in the Bible is the epitome of inner fortitude, not outward toughness. In other words, secular standards of masculinity, i.e. Western Civilization machismo, woefully falls short for Biblical manhood.

  263. @Daniel Williams

    In Glasgow, where people die earlier than just about anywhere else in Scotland, it is still utterly routine for people to have all of their teeth extracted before they are forty or even thirty. Dentistry in North Britain is the worst in Europe, with England a not so distant second.

    It’s nothing to do with social class either: I know half a dozen aristocrats whose open mouths would send most of you backing off in confused horror.

    The Labour victory of 1945 and the triumph of nationalisation is to blame. Doctors and dentists took a huge hit in income and therefore class, and the best no longer went into either field.
    If America follows suit, decay (of every kind) will be the result.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Daniel Williams
  264. Corvinus says:
    @dc.sunsets

    “Your comment is why most women should be managed by their fathers until marriage, and by their husbands after. The father can see what’s there in a man, even if his daughter is lost in estrogen fog.”

    Young men are often liars…when they seek to bed a woman without desiring to make a commitment. The onus is on the parents to “manage” their children, boy or girl, when it comes to dating and mating. Sons and daughters are equally incapable of discernment when it comes to selecting the “right” person to go out with, get to know, and work toward making a commitment. Poor judgement is due to individual failings, rather than being exclusively a female trait.

    “I’m approaching old age but could still beat the living hell out of any woman on Earth–save perhaps the tranny Williams “sisters”…”

    Anyone can make any claim on the Internet.

    “but very few women seem to realize just how much their safety at all times rests ENTIRELY on male restraint and self-control.”

    Speaking of “restraint” and “self-control”, guys claim they want virginal women, or women with little sexual experience. However, they employ every trick in the book to bed them; when women refuse, guys label them “cold”. When they succumb, guys call them “sluts”. It’s a lose-lose situation. It is obvious the fathers in this situation failed in his duty to properly instruct their sons to refrain from trying to rut every women he sees.

  265. “There is an alternative model, and a proven one…it is called the Christian Bible, which offers complexity to behavior rather than stereotypes.”

    Laugh.

    How dare you bring the bible into this discussion Laugh . . . .

    I agree with you. Scriptural understanding makes a very solid case.

  266. iffen says:
    @Old Palo Altan

    Rednecks been gumming it forever. Keep on keeping on.

  267. Feryl says: • Website
    @Jay Fink

    Interesting. It is true for me. My teen years were in the 80s and the women of that era set the standard for what I find attractive. I loved the big hair and the whole glam look that was popular in the 80s. The natural look for women which has been popular in recent decades and which a lot of guys prefer is underwhelming to me.

    The converse of what people think of as being 80’s fashion can be easily seen even in 80’s movies and TV shows. In the earlier 80’s, women and esp. men often look rather….Normal. Bell Bottoms were gone. Shirt collars got a lot thinner.. Cotton and Linen made a comeback. True, some women wore a lot of make-up or used a lot of hairspray, but not all did (it’s not that uncommon to see women with fairly “controlled” hair; in my estimation, at least 1 out of 4 women in the mid-80’s had somewhat short and straight hair). By say, 1988, most women did have really big hair, which only gradually petered out from 1990-1994 (contrary to popular belief, big hair didn’t suddenly vanish after Nirvana; in fact, I would say that big hair was as popular in the early 90’s as it was in the early 80’s). Most guys before circa 1988 did not have mullets, or only had slight mullets. Again, it’s a common misconception that the fashion of 1988-1991 is representative of the entire 80’s decade. It’s as wrong as saying that the fashion of 1968 is representative of the entire 60’s.

    Compared to the 70’s and late 80’s, 1980-1984 was actually on the conservative side in terms of fashion.

    The natural look for women which has been popular in recent decades and which a lot of guys prefer is underwhelming to me.

    Crime and promiscuity have declined a lot since 1995, which is precisely when most women started to put the hair spray and brightly colored make-up away. Probably not a coincidence. Guys are more nerdy and women are more boring these days.

  268. Feryl says: • Website
    @jbwilson24

    I don’t see this at all. Young women in the USA seem masculine to me these days.

    It’s the focus on careerism, which now begins with girls when they are in grade school (!). Delaying family formation makes women more masculine. Evidently women’s voices are deeper now than they used to be. BTW, it’s also been found that girls mature faster in the absence of a father. This may also be causing younger generations of women to be more poorly socialized (and in fact, the female incarceration rate has risen faster than the male incarceration rate has over the last 30 years; I would assume than crime and violence are more common in masculinized women).

    In the same manner, I see more young men with low testosterone features. Wide hips, narrow shoulders, etc.

    Today’s 21 year olds look like 1998’s 14 year olds. No really, I’m serious. Look at pictures of male teenagers from the 1970’s-1990’s. They have more lean muscle mass, heavier brows and jaws, etc., than 20 something Gen Z-ers. This has a lot to do with people spending a lot more time outdoors (and playing pick up basketball, fighting etc.) in the 1970’s-early 1990’s. Gen Z has spent it’s whole life mostly cooped up and “insulated” from the action, end result being that Gen Z is much more physically weak (and socially awkward) than previous generations.

  269. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    I think from “having to have your father’s consent after you’ve chosen” to “getting raped on a regular basis for the rest of your life” is a pretty large logical leap, even for Rosie.

    I’d say it’s a pretty large logical leap for you to assume that I consider the need for a father’s consent as equivalent to “forced marriage.” The two are not the same, clearly.

    Though, in practice, they often do amount to exactly the same thing. Men who, in theory, only have veto power can and do bring pressure to bear on their daughters to get married, because they are considered a burden on the family.

  270. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    Arranged marriages are often misunderstood. There’s a huge difference between forced marriages and a situation where parents arrange for their offspring to meet someone they consider suitable but the son/daughter can still veto the match if they dislike the person.

    This is, in my opinion, an incorrect use of the term “arranged marriage.” What you are talking about is mere matchmaking, and not objectionable.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  271. Feryl says: • Website
    @dfordoom

    Cannabis and LSD have permanent effects on the personality.

    Have you seen the YouTube video(s) of Steven Crowder discussing pot? They’re quite interesting. He eventually talked to a university researcher about the effects of pot use, and this women said that adolescent pot use is associated with long term declines in mental functioning. In particular, people predisposed to mental illness had much more severe psychotic breaks if they had a history of youthful pot use. People should not be messing around with their brain chemistry when they are in middle or high school. Yet that is precisely when risk taking behavior peaks. Fortunately, pot use is till nowhere near as common as it was in the 70’s. But according to the researcher from the U of Michigan, when a local city de-criminalized pot (I believe Ann Arbor was the city) a couple years ago, school administrators, parents, and law enforcement all reported a major spike in teen crime and mental breakdowns. Literally legalizing pot made it’s use more prevalent, and the results speak for themselves. Anyone who remembers, or studies, the 1970’s will also discern that teenage misbehavior gradually got worse as the decade went on in tandem with pot smoking rising; binge drinking and car crashes were also at an epidemic level in the late 70’s.

    The cannabis and LSD usage by the hippie generation (mostly born 1935 to 1955) was a major societal disaster. 80s drug culture was probably marginally less destructive. It was still bad, but not as bad.

    It was the numbers of people doing drugs, of all kinds, in the late 60’s and 70’s, that led to so much craziness. And in 1979, about 50% (!) of high school seniors had smoked pot that year. And how many people were 18 years old in 1979? A lot. By the 1990’s, America’s overall age profile was much older, which certainly made things safer and calmer.

    People born in the 1960’s are, on some measures, the worst off cohort of all, in terms of physical health, incarceration, poverty, divorce, not getting along well with their family, and so forth. That’s why Strauss and Howe used 1961 as the first year for Generation X, who they saw as a “failed” by their own admission, hedonistic, reckless, and detached from any sort of social or political mission as a generation. Now the good news is that many people born after 1969 were (and still are) horrified by the behavior of this generation and are vowing to not make the same mistakes. I’ve noticed that people born in the 70’s and 80’s are aging much better than people born in the 50’s and 60’s. Not exactly surprising, really. And for the record, the 1968 and 1969 cohorts are doing marginally better than the 1958-1967 cohort, which seems to be very ill-fated.

    So why did the “1970’s generation” turn out so rough? Well, a lot of the “1960’s” Generation (those born in the 1940’s and early 50’s) at least had some sort of family, social, and academic stability in the 1940’s-1960’s. Whereas the 70’s generation experienced a lot of chaos from the get-go. It’s best to avoid too many lows at an early age in order to protect your long-term mental, physical, and financial well-being. The “80’s generation” (those born 1968-1980) reached high-school in the mid-80’s-1990’s when drug use declined, the divorce rate declined, riots and murders of police declined, and car crashes declined. So that’s why they are doing relatively well.

    Speed and coke can make you just as crazy but when you stop using them you more or less return to normality.

    Uhhh, no. No way. Meth in particular really fucks you up, and heavy users will never return to fully normal mental functioning. Coke is less psychologically damaging in the long run, but heavy abusers can rot their sinuses away. I’ve noticed “coke voice” (hoarse and thin vocal quality)in middle aged self-professed heavy users of coke (“heroin voice” also happens if applicable). It also damages the heart, and most coke heads look very prematurely aged once they hit the age of about 50.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  272. Rosie says:
    @Dumbo

    I say this with sadness, because I’d rather have a situation with more freedom of choice for both men and women, and with white people marrying other white people. But it is unlikely that the current situation will last for very long.

    If that is true, it is because of male greed for cheap labor, not women choosing our own husbands.

  273. @Old Palo Altan

    I know half a dozen aristocrats whose open mouths would send most of you backing off in confused horror.

    Why is that? Even if these people are indifferent to their teeth’s appearance, isn’t it painful to let them rot?

    If these people are rich, why don’t they fly someplace with better dentists and get the work there? Surely they’re aware that such places exist.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  274. ScottC says:
    @advancedatheist

    Many young single women crossed the Atlantic on their own initiative, like the Irish and Scottish girls who went to America to become servants, teachers and workers in the early factories.

    That was after coverture. The Irish women went to Catholic churches where the men and women sat on separate sides of the pews and lived in single-sex dormatories or with Catholic families. The girl had a surrogate family in the church that provided for her and set her up with a husband. Girls did not live by themselves in apartments and date cowboys.

    The idea that it is men and not women who need to be controlled even more than they already are (the “today’s men are too weak” crowd) is insane and some sort of defect in the white race.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  275. Rosie says:

    And before that she was doing what for 7 years? Oh, I know; reading books, thinking thoughts, and traveling to “collect experiences”.

    That’s pretty much what I did. Now I’m happily married with six beautiful White children.

    I find this risk aversion to be really pathetic, but then I’m a stay-at-home mom who has chosen to trust my husband with my future. I have no sympathy for people who refuse to take a risk to get the life they say they want, and then complain about not having the life they say they want.

  276. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    YetAnotherAnon,

    It occurs to me that your comments would be more to the point if you would consider the context of another person’s post.

    If you look at the comment I was replying to, the suggestion was that women should not be “sexual gatekeepers.”

    If you are a woman, and you are not a “sexual gatekeeper,” then what are you?

    Answer: a rape victim.

    Around here, it is routine to make grave threats of draconian repression against women, and then feign innocence. (Oh but what objection could you possibly have to matchmaking!?!) I’m sure you didn’t mean to do that, though.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  277. Rosie says:
    @ScottC

    The idea that it is men and not women who need to be controlled even more than they already are

    Why would anyone think that?

    I mean it’s not like men are responsible for the vast majority of murder and mayhem the world over or anything.

  278. Thomm says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Nowhere near 1-in-5 whites are white nationalists

    I said 10-20% of MEN. Only half of white are men, even if, from the WN perspective, 100% of whites are men.

    Hence, 10-20% of men = 5-10% of white people. Note that the female counterparts of WN wiggers are the fat bluehaired feminists, who are the same 5-10% of people.

    It is remarkable that both WN and feminism contain just one gender, and are equal in numbers. Hence, they are both the respective genders of the same defective subrace.

  279. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Yeah, when the wife has custody, you will lose your ability to teach your children well. They can turn out bad with not a damn thing you can do about it

    Yes, that’s possibly the single most worrying risk factor. To know that his kids are being brought up badly and be able to do nothing about it is going to tear the heart out of any decent man.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  280. anon[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Why do I get the strong feeling that part of the “incel” problem is nothing more than having men at the peak of their testosterone frenzy who can’t obtain partners having their focus reinforced on sex and relationships, 24/7?

    Because you have no idea what it is like to grow up in the matriarchy that is K – 12 “education”?

    Let’s say you are in 3rd grade and the school cancels afternoon recess. Then they cancel morning recess. Then the boys who can’t sit still are determined to be “problems” in need of some drugs such as Ritalin. Long term effects? Eh, who cares?

    Then there is the whole “zero tolerance” world of high school.

    And then there is the whole “consent, did you get consent, did you consent?” world of college.

    It’s not 1968, or 1977, or 1985, or 1993 anymore. Things are very different from whenever it was you were 20.

  281. anon[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @jbwilson24

    Female facial structures are becoming more masculine. I see far more teenaged girls with masculine bone structures in their face.

    Also hips that are narrower than their shoulders. I see that in the US pretty regularly now, it cannot be solely due to time in the gym.

  282. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Twodees Partain

    That may be true for those who use cocaine and meth for a short time, but it certainly isn’t true for addicts. Cocaine and meth addicts who get clean don’t return to normal by any means. Both of those drugs have permanent effects on the personalities of the addicts and that is observable in those who have been clean for years.

    The main difference between cannabis/psychedelics and cocaine/meth is that it’s very common for users of cocaine and meth to engage in violent acts against others, while the cannabis/psychedelics users aren’t inclined toward violence nearly as often.

    All mind-altering drugs are very bad and very dangerous, and yes it’s probably true that all result in some permanent damage. That’s the problem with the mind – it’s so easy to do serious long-term harm to it.

    I get riled up on the cannabis issue mainly because so many people still insist that it’s basically harmless.

    I’m inclined to think that cannabis use does more social harm. The late 60s/70s cannabis/psychedelics binge was a true social catastrophe. But of course all mind-altering drugs do social harm to some extent.

    The main difference between cannabis/psychedelics and cocaine/meth is that it’s very common for users of cocaine and meth to engage in violent acts against others

    Cannabis use can lead to schizophrenia, or at least seriously exacerbate the symptoms, and schizophrenics can be violent and dangerous. I’ve personally known more than one case of a schizophrenic whose behaviour has become steadily more violent as a result of long-term cannabis use.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    , @Twodees Partain
  283. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    This is, in my opinion, an incorrect use of the term “arranged marriage.” What you are talking about is mere matchmaking, and not objectionable.

    Yes, point taken. I think a lot of the disagreements on this subject on UR actually come down to inexact or ambiguous terminology. Matchmaking is a term you don’t hear used very much these days but it’s a good term and I like it.

    What it really comes down to, and I think this is the point Talha is making, is that in a healthy society parents remain involved in their children’s lives and the children actually appreciate it.

    It’s not just marriage but a whole range of life choices. My father got me my first job, in the same factory he worked in. I certainly had no idea how to go about getting a job. And when I say it was a factory job it was actually a skilled tradesman’s job and incredibly well paid. It was a pretty good choice on his part. My impression is that that is a part of working class life that has largely vanished.

  284. Jay Fink says:
    @dfordoom

    I know a woman who was a heavy pot smoker, went totally psychotic and has been in and out of jail and mental hospitals. Her brain is warped and she will never be normal again like she was when I first met her. I know that’s anecdotal but I’m convinced cannabis is much more dangerous than they say it is.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  285. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Feryl

    But according to the researcher from the U of Michigan, when a local city de-criminalized pot (I believe Ann Arbor was the city) a couple years ago, school administrators, parents, and law enforcement all reported a major spike in teen crime and mental breakdowns. Literally legalizing pot made it’s use more prevalent, and the results speak for themselves.

    Yep. Legalising pot is both bone-headed and evil.

    It was the numbers of people doing drugs, of all kinds, in the late 60’s and 70’s, that led to so much craziness

    Yes. Drugs had been around for a long time. There were drug subcultures in Victorian times. But drug users were such a tiny minority of the population that they did little harm. You can’t eliminate dumb anti-social self-destructive behaviours but you can sure as Hell discourage them so that they remain confined to a tiny proportion of the population.

  286. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jay Fink

    I know that’s anecdotal but I’m convinced cannabis is much more dangerous than they say it is.

    The campaign to normalise and legalise cannabis use is driven by the same forces that have driven all the other disastrous social libertarian experiments of the past half century. In other words it’s driven by people whom we know to be capable of telling some pretty outrageous lies.

    Peter Hitchens addresses this topic in his excellent book The War We Never Fought: The British Establishment’s Surrender to Drugs. I think the situation was pretty much the same throughout the Anglosphere – evidence of the harmful effects of cannabis was wilfully ignored or even suppressed.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  287. WHAT says:
    @nebulafox

    Physical results of sex are the point of life, though.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  288. That’s great if you actually appreciate it. But my parents tried to involve themselves in my life in the way you suggest, and at the time I greatly resented it. It felt extremely liberating to get out from under their clutches. Perhaps if, up until that point, I had felt that my life was my own to live and that their involvement in it was only aimed at helping me achieve what I wanted, I would have seen it differently. But I grew up feeling that I’m only on this earth in order to “perform” for them, to satisfy their hopes and dreams, not my own. And I greatly resented that. As it happens, I went on to make some terrible decisions, and it’s easy to think that in many ways my life would have probably turned out better had I followed their advice. Who knows.

  289. @Rosie

    Scott’s post was clearly referring to ‘sexual gatekeeping’ in the context of proposed marriage. Women have been their own gatekeepers for at least the last 80 years, although in every age women with little power have been vulnerable to men with power.

    From my teenage memories, even 50 years ago if a girl wanted to do the deed her hapless father didn’t have much chance of stopping her. I felt for those guys, much too late, when I had teenage daughters of my own.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  290. @dfordoom

    Former nineties college hippie here.

    Absolute nonsense that marijuana causes as much damage as meth or crack cocaine.

    Visit your average college pothead ten years after he has put the bong down and cut his hair and he is an average person.

    Visit a speed freak or former crackhead. They’ve nickel and dimed their way out of about 10 IQ points. They also suffer a lifetime of depression because they wiped out their dopamine receptors. They also end up with permanent paranoia. And bad teeth. Especially meth heads.

    Also, they end up with displaying characteristics of psychosis. Unpredictable aggression, bipolar etc.

    I know Clash-loving punks hate college hippies and live by the old Sex Pistols Never Trust Hippie mantra but snorting rails of meth made with drano will leave the user with far greater after affects than smoking weed.

    Speed and coke age a user. Your average ex meth addict or coke user will look about 10 years old than their age simply because of all the sleep they have missed over the years of being awake on three-day binges.

    Not to mention the internal damage. Meth users often end up with kidney failure, diabetes years after using meth. It is murder on your system.

    Finally, speed freaks and coke heads always have a monkey on their back.

    You cannot possibly compare weed and crystal meth or crack cocaine.

    LSD is a different matter. Many users have a bad trip and don’t recover.

    Finally, the speed user or coke head often wracks up a series of charges. Crimes or incidents related to their use of the drug.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  291. @dfordoom

    “The campaign to normalise and legalise cannabis use is driven by the same forces that….”

    ….are attempting to reverse decades of authoritarian control over people. You completely overlook the forces which have historically used government action to impose their ideals on everyone. The Carrie Nation types who pushed for alcohol prohibition encouraged politicians to seize more power for government. The result was catastrophic, leading to the rise of organized crime and the expansion of government corruption at every level.

    ” evidence of the harmful effects of cannabis was wilfully ignored or even suppressed.”

    What about the way that the rights of citizens were ignored and the medical benefits of cannabis were suppressed, as well as outright lies about the detrimental effects of cannabis that were spread by those wanting to replace alcohol prohibition with prohibition of other substances? That was a much more destructive campaign, and it was a campaign to erode liberties of the citizenry and expand government authority.

    It’s high time for that expansion to be reversed.

  292. @dfordoom

    “I get riled up on the cannabis issue mainly because so many people still insist that it’s basically harmless.”

    Apparently, you were riled up enough to claim that meth and cocaine have no lasting psychological effects. I’m glad to see you walking that back a little. The point isn’t that drugs are harmful. They are harmful and that isn’t debatable. The point is that government has no rightful authority to attempt to control what drugs people choose to use.

    That control isn’t even possible. The attempt to control people leads to expansion of government without solving the problem of drug use.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  293. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    FWIW, my kids all did it.

    ___ BUT ____

    It’s a fact (not a brag) that my kids are highly unusual, one-in-500 to one-in-5,000 kinds of people (example: How many people have you ever met who literally got straight “A’s” in college, not just in some made-up major but in mechanical or electrical engineering, complete with classes like “strength and materials” or “fluid dynamics?”)

    Today in America the twin burdens of taxpaying the way of the Parasite Class (everyone who doesn’t pay net income taxes) and covering the metastatic cancer that is the Medical/Medical-Insurance Cartel have made “middle class” achievement the province of the exceptionally bright AND exceptionally conscientious (both are required, one won’t do.)

    We live in an asset-extraction industry. Every aspect of our culture now caters to mining people for whatever isn’t nailed down (mostly their time, productive or not.) College students are “mined” for their future earnings, for example.

    This is a long-lived, collective madness begun in earnest in the 1960’s. It has strip-mined our very culture and promises a period of reconciliation most people will find excruciatingly painful. I know this, but I don’t know when it will start (in earnest), how long it will run, what the specifics will be or whether the outcome will be renewal or devastation.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  294. @EliteCommInc.

    “Everything we do (experience) becomes a part of us.”

    I told my sons this over and over. Be careful what experiences you add to the attic in your head.

    “Imagine you attend your wife’s class reunion (it doesn’t matter if it’s high school or college.) One male attendee after another walks by, smiles at your wife and smirks knowingly at you before moving on. Each of those guys might as well grab a mic and regale the audience with a synopsis of his intimate moments with the woman you married.

    “How would that land on you? If it doesn’t land well, reverse it. Imagine you ‘knew’ a bunch of willing girls and at the reunion more than a few walked by and draped themselves momentarily on you, rubbing it into your wife who sits next to you. Have you not, by your actions prior to when you met her, basically glued into your history an open disrespect for her? Opinions might vary…but I sure as heck think so.

    “The next time you are physically intimate, does she wonder if thoughts of your moments with any of those women occupy your mind? What if your memory, fickle as it is, presents you with the highlight reel of those moments, such that you (erroneously) conclude that your “hottest sex” was with OTHER WOMEN and your wife now pales in their shadow. Note that some women are prone to act out Debbie Does Dallas with a man as a means of putting ‘her face on his future sexual experiences,’ a catty and vicious behavior to be sure but far from rare.

    “If you were given the opportunity to spend a year living like a Rock Star/Billionaire, certain in the knowledge that afterward you’d return to your ‘normal life,’ would you take it? Would basking in the memories of what was now and forever unobtainable to you be mentally healthy? I suggest that it would likely make the rest of your life look like solitary confinement in a dungeon.

    “Be careful what broken furniture you place in your attic. You can never escape it. You’re better off having as few ‘comparisons’ as possible. Being happy in life is a side-effect of setting your expectations at or below what life serves up to you. You will be ravaged by time, or you’ll die young. Better the former, sailing Happiness Ocean by having reality deliver what exceeds your expectations every day.”

    I am exceedingly fortunate. I met my wife very, very early and married very, very early (by today’s standards.) We checked all the boxes (college, marriage, kids, dog, picket fence) and largely avoided the pitfalls into which I watched one acquaintance after another face-plant.

    How much was luck? No idea. But meeting her was truly kismet.

    • Replies: @Talha
  295. @dfordoom

    I sincerely believe that when this Long Boom (and Popular Delusion) ends and crushing hardships return to their normal state, there will be a epidemic of divorced women slaughtered by their ex-husbands.

    It is one thing to torment a caged tiger with a pointed stick.

    It is entirely a different thing to torment the tiger when the bars of the cage are literally nothing but the mental/emotional restraint of the tiger.

    Man-hating, literally mentally-ill women got what they wanted in turning the Family Court system into a “heads she wins, tails he loses” proposition. But consequences delayed are not consequences denied, and those consequences simply accumulate behind a dam of mis-perception.

    That dam will fail when this 50-year march into collective lunacy ends.

    There is no animal on Earth more dangerous than an adult male human. Neither tigers nor polar bears can kill at a distance. For all of the media circus about “mass shootings,” we ain’t seen nuttin’ yet. When “nothing left to lose” becomes widespread, the number of tormented “tigers” that settle scores will be legion.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Corvinus
  296. Jay Fink says:
    @Daniel Williams

    I just saw a video of new female rapper Saweetie and thought of your post mentioning the Shangri-Las. OK you have a point. Saweetie is so much better looking than female music artists of past decades. I am normally not attracted to black women but I find this woman to be beautiful or at least very sexy.

    When you watch the official video for Saweetie “My Type” it becomes clear why incels are concentrated in the low income groups. She could not be more crude and crass about what her type of man is. Please someone here watch her clip on YouTube and let me know what you think. It’s has millions of views so you will get in touch with 2019 pop culture (or urban culture) in all its glory.

  297. Altai says:
    @German_reader

    That’s certainly true, but I think it should also be noted that “incels” originally referred not just to “sexually poor” men, but to a specific internet subculture of young men with sometimes rather extreme ideas

    Other way around.

  298. Talha says:
    @dc.sunsets

    Sound advice.

    kismet

    As a product of the Persianate world, I call “cultural appropriation”!

    Peace.

  299. @Twodees Partain

    Control is ESSENTIAL. Many people are highly impulsive and can benefit from a social milieu that constrains their impulsivity.

    What is debatable is who (or what) controls.

    Government (a geographic monopoly on ultimate decision-making) is a terrible system for instituting control that is not essentially acclamation. For all practical purposes, everyone agrees we should not accept or allow robbery and murder. A monopoly enforcing these prohibitions may be useful.

    When not every good person agrees about suppressing something (gambling, pornography, prostitution, drug use, alcohol use, etc.) government is a horrible system for controlling it.

    Religion once served this purpose. In a sense, the metaphysical plane is where persuasion is best found, in religion and philosophy. Each person must be persuaded, not through force.

    Government prohibition of gambling and prostitution “worked” for a long time because most people largely professed to believe these things were clear vices (self-harming actions undertaken with the expectation of pleasure or benefit) and suppressing them was a civic good.

    Government now RUNS the numbers racket (AKA state lotteries.) Government is a partner (tax partner) in the booze and cigarette businesses, and is jumping into bed (tax partner) with the pot business. This turns the political state into a purveyor of vice. Only an idiot cannot see the pathological downstream effects of this.

    Government has a role to play in enforcing society norms. But society has to agree (consensus) on those norms, and if the consensus is toxic, the outcome will be pathology and destruction.

    Today, people’s consensus about vices is toxic and pathological. Our society is one of permanent adolescence, where every impulse to vice is actively encouraged.

    “Just because you CAN do something doesn’t mean you should.” Tens of millions of people are learning that actions taken impulsively can brand you with inescapable baggage (memories, permanent brain effects, incurable viruses, predisposition to cancers, etc..) A healthy society can help people avoid these, but ours is sick, sick, sick because the hedonistic, self-destructive people are in charge (or those who profit from hedonism and self-destruction are.)

    In such a situation, government isn’t the solution, it becomes a willing partner to the problem.

  300. Anon[403] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jay Fink

    https://www.instagram.com/Saweetie/

    You have odd taste, even given that some fair proportion of these pictures will have been airbrushed into a strange cartoon look.

    Older black female singers I don’t find particularly attractive either; the first who come to mind are the Supremes, who were, however, at least well-groomed. And the Supremes were actually talented singers, which was selected for in those days.

  301. Talha says:
    @dc.sunsets

    there will be a epidemic of divorced women slaughtered by their ex-husbands.

    A frightening thought, but entirely plausible in a complete breakdown of civil order and as a “corrective” to many decades of things moving in a more and more extreme direction.

    Ironically, if this does happen (and I hope it does not), it will likely be so because these women are nowhere near their fathers or brothers or other of their menfolk that would afford them a semblance of physical protection. Reminds me of that statement by the German WW1 hero that Twinkie likes:
    “Long periods of peace and quiet favor certain optical illusions. Among them is the assumption that the invulnerability of the home is founded upon the constitution and safeguarded by it. In reality, it rests upon the father of the family who, accompanied by his sons, appears with the ax on the threshold of his dwelling.”

    Peace.

    Note: I remember when my wife first explained that my daughter would be getting only half the inheritance that her 3 brothers would. She obviously didn’t like that, but when she was also told that if ever she was alone or divorced by her husband and needed to be looked after, her brothers were also obligated to take care of her financially. That made her happy. I still remember her grinning mischievously – girls can be so cute.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  302. Talha says:
    @dc.sunsets

    Religion once served this purpose.

    Still does.

    Religion is quite dead…it just took a left turn:
    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @dc.sunsets
  303. @Jay Fink

    When you watch the official video for Saweetie “My Type” it becomes clear why incels are concentrated in the low income groups. She could not be more crude and crass about what her type of man is.

    I never want to see another black in my life.  I just want away from them.

    • LOL: Jay Fink
    • Replies: @Truth
  304. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Meant to say “isn’t”…

  305. @Talha

    Leftism is an ersatz religion, a cult (actually)…a cargo cult (which is characterized by the appearance of things rather than their actual substance.)

    As someone reminded me, there’s no such thing as empty space. Remove one thing, another takes its place. All people believe something. It’s the specific something that matters, no?

    As I’m fond of noting, we control what occupies our minds or we are controlled by those who do.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  306. @Talha

    “Long periods of peace and quiet favor certain optical illusions. Among them is the assumption that the invulnerability of the home is founded upon the constitution and safeguarded by it. In reality, it rests upon the father of the family who, accompanied by his sons, appears with the ax on the threshold of his dwelling.”

    True wisdom.

    This is a distillation of Jeff Snyder’s brilliant essay, A Nation of Cowards published in 1993. Or “those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who didn’t.”

    As I see it, what “most people” see today are optical delusions.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  307. nebulafox says:
    @WHAT

    Yeah, but that’s not why most of us do it, most of the time. Certainly your average 19 year old does not want to become a parent in a 21st Century 1st World society, for good reason.

    And relating to my previous point: when your biological impulse is to REPRODUCE, REPRODUCE, REPRODUCE (something that is the result of human evolution and is not going to be erased), if you can’t have it (and a lot of younger men can’t), the effect the consistent societal hyper-obsession with sex has on your mind risks being magnified to the point where your life revolves around it.

  308. dfordoom says: • Website
    @dc.sunsets

    Government prohibition of gambling and prostitution “worked” for a long time because most people largely professed to believe these things were clear vices (self-harming actions undertaken with the expectation of pleasure or benefit) and suppressing them was a civic good.

    Government now RUNS the numbers racket (AKA state lotteries.) Government is a partner (tax partner) in the booze and cigarette businesses, and is jumping into bed (tax partner) with the pot business. This turns the political state into a purveyor of vice. Only an idiot cannot see the pathological downstream effects of this.

    That’s the result of corrupt governments. They’re like cops who instead of enforcing the law become racketeers themselves. But that’s not an argument for abolishing the police.

    It’s also a case of dishonest government. Instead of admitting that they don’t have the tax revenue they need they succumb to the temptation of imposing hidden taxes. It’s governments not being honest enough to say to the voters that if they want the things government provides then those things have to be paid for, paid for in the form of taxation. And we’re either going to tax you openly or we’re going to tax you in sneaky dishonest ways.

    What has happened in the Anglosphere countries, and especially in the US, has been a colossal corruption of government. I’m inclined to think that “democracy” makes this inevitable although it may be mostly a result of way too much power in the hands of the media. Our governments have decided that it’s just not possible to be honest with the voters. That’s a failure of our political system but it’s not an argument against government per se.

    Voters do want the things that government provides. They want roads and hospitals and they want a welfare state and they want police forces and they want infrastructure to be maintained and expanded but they’ve been corrupted into thinking that somehow they can have those things on the cheap, and they don’t realise just how much they’re being taxed in hidden rather than open ways.

  309. dfordoom says: • Website
    @dc.sunsets

    Leftism is an ersatz religion, a cult (actually)…a cargo cult (which is characterized by the appearance of things rather than their actual substance.)

    All political ideologies are ersatz religion.

    That includes marxism, fascism, liberalism and libertarianism. Proponents of free-market capitalism are as much followers of an ersatz religion as marxists.

    Political ideologies are theology for atheists.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  310. dfordoom says: • Website
    @dc.sunsets

    Control is ESSENTIAL. Many people are highly impulsive and can benefit from a social milieu that constrains their impulsivity.

    I agree.

    Government (a geographic monopoly on ultimate decision-making) is a terrible system for instituting control that is not essentially acclamation. For all practical purposes, everyone agrees we should not accept or allow robbery and murder. A monopoly enforcing these prohibitions may be useful.

    When not every good person agrees about suppressing something (gambling, pornography, prostitution, drug use, alcohol use, etc.) government is a horrible system for controlling it.

    In the early 60s just about every good person did agree that gambling, pornography, prostitution and drug use were bad things that should be suppressed as much as possible. But governments went ahead and liberalised or even in practice eliminated controls over those things. What happened around that time is that our governments decided that what the people actually wanted was irrelevant. Our governments decided that the wishes of ordinary people should be ignored.

    Again it was a complete failure of the political system. Governments were increasingly dominated by the rising managerial class and the rising intellectual class. Arrogant classes who despised ordinary people. Our “democratic” governments in the Free World ironically became more alienated from ordinary people than the governments in the communist world.

  311. @dc.sunsets

    The form of federal government that we are supposed to have, according the constitution, has no power whatsoever to ban anything. Most of the federal register is unlawfully imposed, because the federal government isn’t granted the power to legislate on much. They way the federal government is supposed to work is that a power must be clearly enumerated in the constitution. When it isn’t, then it doesn’t exist as a federal power.

    An amendment was required in order to give the federal government the power to ban alcohol. The 18th amendment was repealed and the power to ban alcohol was rescinded. No such amendment was ever passed to give the federal government the power to ban anything else.

    People are expected, as adults, to control themselves. When they don’t, and their actions injure someone or deprives someone of their property in any way, there can be consequences, but no level of government has the lawful power of prior restraint. The laws banning any drug are justified (erroneously) by their intended purpose of keeping people from behaving destructively while under the influence of drugs. That amounts to prior restraint. A law which can’t show a victim other than the person being charged with breaking that law, isn’t a valid law, it’s a money trap. Which of the first generation founders said that?

  312. @Achmed E. Newman

    What I’ve observed is that the siteware doesn’t play well with some browsers. I have an older version of Firefox on my Linux machine and it does much better here than the latest Firefox on my machines with other O/S.

    Chrome on the Android system of my wife’s smartphone doesn’t handle this siteware very well.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  313. @Daniel Williams

    A goodly number of the heads of the old peerage and gentry families, not to mention the junior members, are far from rich.

    In any case, what is startlingly noticeable to us, is much less so to them. The British gave up on their teeth long ago.

    Of course if it hurts, or even threatens to, it is immediately pulled. False teeth and implants exist, but both the lower and the upper classes don’t much bother with them.

    The middles are, as usual, a different story.

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
  314. @Old Palo Altan

    That is very strange and intriguing to me, the whole thing. How do you know these people?

    And if they’re not rich, do they work? Like, at a Kinko’s or something? Is Lord So-and-So bringing home $45K/year managing a pizza place or doing graphic design at a mid-size grocery store chain?

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  315. JackOH says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Wild Geese, the 20th century playwright, Elmer Rice, has a good story about being given his start with a woman who was arranged for him by his father or uncle. I recall few details, but the woman was not a streetwalker, and didn’t work in a bordello. No pimp or procuress was mentioned, and she may have been a part-timer, a free-lancer.

    I may be totally off the reservation on this, but I’d like to think there’s room for legal, genteel prostitution. The current fronts–massage parlors, “erotic photo shoots”, lap dancing places–have slavery, pimping, Mob, and other legal issues. Just a thought.

    • Replies: @iffen
  316. @Twodees Partain

    Your old browser may not be as old as mine, T.P. Mine has no 5-minute EDIT window anymore ever (not just during bug-outs), but lately it does not show my comment at the bottom, after I’ve hit PUBLISH. I can’t expect everything to work on the old browser, but the operating system is too old to update the browser on, and I’m damn sure not gonna update Windows. Linux for the win again, I guess.

    That’s not what I’m on now though, so I can see which bugs are browser-specific.

  317. @Achmed E. Newman

    Your old browser may not be as old as mine, T.P. Mine has no 5-minute EDIT window anymore ever (not just during bug-outs), but lately it does not show my comment at the bottom, after I’ve hit PUBLISH.

    I’ve had that same problem for months. I just have to commit my comments to the ether and hope that they survive the hamster wheels inside my computer, as well as the whim.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  318. @Intelligent Dasein

    If you load up the same page in another browser, and just refresh the 2nd one each time you submit a comment on the 1st, you can kinda keep track. At least I THINK that worked.

    Getting “published” is not so easy, except here, from me, on A.E.’s blog. Thank you, Audacious!

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  319. iffen says:
    @JackOH

    there’s room for legal, genteel prostitution.

    Would you want your daughter to work s as a genteel prostitute?

  320. @Daniel Williams

    Well, two peers of famous lineage, one an earl and the other a viscount, were policemen until quite recently.

    They do whatever they can do: some teach, some are accountants, and some perhaps, although I’ve not heard of any, live off the dole. The greater number of the less pecunious went into the armed forces in former days; now they seem to go into the City in the hopes of somehow conjuring up a fortune. Two at least have done so in recent years: Lord Lovat and Moncrieff of that Ilk. I met the latter some ten years ago; his wife, a picture of youthful elegance and beauty, was the proud mother of six children. Another heir to an earldom I know is a smallish farmer.

    Others of course live like the fictional earl in Downton Abbey (I think that’s the name) including the actual owner of the house used in that meritricious if hugely successful soap opera.

    After all, what can one expect after nearly a century of confiscatory death duties and high taxes. The final blow for many was the abolition of the hereditary element in the House of Lords: a good number of peers had come to depend upon their attendance allowances to get by.

    All very sad, but they truly are believers in the stiff upper lip, and tend to just soldier on without complaint.

  321. @Achmed E. Newman

    Check out the SalixESR update channel on Mozilla. I got an extended support linux version of Firefox for my old slackware variant o/s there when the developers’ blog didn’t have a package for it. I’m running it now and this site plays well with it.

    https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/60.4.0/releasenotes/?utm_source=firefox-browser&utm_medium=firefox-browser&utm_campaign=whatsnew

  322. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Scott’s post was clearly referring to ‘sexual gatekeeping’ in the context of proposed marriage.

    You are incorrect. Yet again you fail to consider the context, as well as other comments made by the same poster.

    Click on his name and read his comments. You’ll quickly see what I mean.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  323. Rosie says:
    @Mr. Rational

    And created perhaps THE most predictable disaster of policy ever enacted upon the USA

    That’s another question, though, isn’t it?

    However disastrous Prohibition may or may not have been. The problems that drove the Temperance Movement were very real, and remain so today.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  324. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Here is “Scott” in his own words:

    Women were not the sexual gatekeepers back then. In the days of coverture a girl’s father had the final say over whom his daughter married. A man could court a girl but if the father disapproved of his daughter’s choice there would be no marriage. Men in those days proved themselves more to the father than to the girl.

    His meaning was perfectly clear.

  325. Corvinus says:
    @dc.sunsets

    “I sincerely believe that when this Long Boom (and Popular Delusion) ends and crushing hardships return to their normal state, there will be a epidemic of divorced women slaughtered by their ex-husbands.”

    No matter how you package your sick fantasy, it’s not going to materialize.

    “That dam will fail when this 50-year march into collective lunacy ends.”

    That is all you have left is your Chicken Little scenarios. It borders on laughable.

    • Replies: @Talha
  326. @anon[271]
    That varies with age. Women in the “party years” from 18 to about 25-27? Not lonely. Not at all.
    Women in the “marriage panic” years of about 27 to 35? Not lonely either, plenty of girl friends and most of them will find a man. Still willing to get all angry over “catcalling”.

    You are spending too much time assessing women based on television or what you see at bars.

    What you aren’t seeing is how many women of all ages are simply spending the weekend alone watching Netflix.

    Not saying you are an incel but I have to wonder how many incels only interact with women when they are trying to date them. Anyone who has been around women in a social organization knows that television is telling giant lies about women enjoying being single. Sex and the City is about as realistic as a talking dog movie. Women may talk a good game but they don’t like being unmarried after 24. The exceptions don’t make the rule. Women are very good about keeping what they really want to themselves.

    It’s not like the average woman today is turning down marriage proposals so she can keep getting random sex at the bars. I’ve worked in an office with liberal women and according to TV they should have all been living it up dating all all types of interesting men. In reality most had serious insecurities and envied the women with a husband or even a long term boyfriend. Hypergamy is can be an issue with liberal women but even that is exaggerated. Sure they come out of college thinking with unrealistic expectations but who doesn’t.

    The biggest problem is that men and women simply aren’t interacting with each other. Too many men and women go home to watch tv or play video games. This idea of all women in their 20s sleeping around and giggling about it is Hollywood fiction. Unmarried women today are having less sex than they were a few decades ago.

    I don’t have all the answers but this view of women slutting it up in their 20s is off base.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @anon
  327. Talha says:
    @Corvinus

    how you package your sick fantasy

    I didn’t really read into his statement that he supported it – it seemed like he was making a causal connection.

    Like if someone were to say; if we keep invading more countries in the Middle East, we will likely see more random attacks by vans running over pedestrians. It’s not supporting it, simply pointing out an if/then scenario.

    He was pointing out that a lot of ex-husbands feel very cheated by the current system and feel it is unfairly stacked against them – and there is truth to this – and if somehow civil order was to break down, he could see some of the guys lose it and take advantage of the situation to kill these women. I could see similar scenarios for, say, one business partner that got totally ripped off and ruined by another and the court didn’t find in his favor so he feels cheated. Or employees who feel their boss unfairly fired them, etc. Doesn’t mean I support the action.

    I’m just saying, I don’t think you should read into the statements of others what they don’t say. Or at least ask them to clarify before going on the offensive.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  328. @John Johnson

    I don’t think anyone’s ever claimed that all women are slutting it up in their twenties. Obviously some women — quite a few, I’d say — pretty much do slut-and-giggle the way tv presents it (although they feel more pain and hurt from those experiences than tv lets on). The question is whether it’s a greater proportion of women who fall into sluthood nowadays compared to some earlier time period. In the absence of any metrics, we can only rely on our impressions, which unfortunately are hugely susceptible to personal biases. I think the internet — and the way many people just let it all hang out online — has contributed to the impression that sluthood is more advanced than ever. My personal impression is that things haven’t significantly changed in the last twenty years.

  329. Truth says:
    @Mr. Rational

    Three methods, Dawg, head in the oven, handgun or pills…

  330. @iffen

    If I had a daughter, there are numerous jobs I wouldn’t want her to do. But obviously such personal preferences shouldn’t form the basis of social policy. To answer your question, if she became some high end escort who went into it because she saw its remunerative potential rather descended into it as a desperate last resort, I don’t think I would have any real problem with it. On the other hand, if I learned she’d ended up in some seedy bordello, servicing scum class clientele, well, that’d be a kick in the guts for sure.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @dfordoom
  331. @Jay Fink

    Saweetie is so much better looking than female music artists of past decades.

    Lolwhut? Just off the top of my head: Olivia Newton John, Cher, Carly Simon, Marianne Faithfull. They totally shit all over your Saweetie, who is nothing really special even by black standards.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    , @Truth
  332. Jay Fink says:
    @silviosilver

    I just looked at hundreds of google images of Saweetie and she does look very attractive to me. Part of it is I admit how she dresses and dolls herself up. When I see the singers you mention I step back a little on my original statement because I think it’s difficult to compare her to women from past decades when beauty standards were different.

    I do strongly disagree that she is not special by black standards. For my tastes yes she is. I rarely find black women attractive. When I see black women in real life I never see one that looks as good as Saweetie. I also rarely find black female singers or celebrities attractive, Marilyn McCoo in her heyday being a rare exception.

    • Replies: @Anon
  333. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jeff Stryker

    Also, they end up with displaying characteristics of psychosis.

    Just as cannabis users do.

    Some druggies get away with their dalliance with drugs. Lots don’t. All these drugs are a menace to the individual and to society. The whole drug culture should be savagely suppressed.

  334. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    If you load up the same page in another browser, and just refresh the 2nd one each time you submit a comment on the 1st, you can kinda keep track. At least I THINK that worked.

    UR has been very very buggy lately.

    Your method seems to work. I’ve managed to make it vaguely workable even just by using a second browser window rather than a second browser. It works, mostly. Sort of.

    I wonder if the problems are affecting particular browsers or operating systems>? I have a Mac and I use Chrome. And my browser is supposedly up-to-date.

    One day computers and the internet will actually work. One day. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but maybe in our children’s children’s lifetimes.

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
  335. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    there’s room for legal, genteel prostitution.

    Would you want your daughter to work s as a genteel prostitute?

    That’s the problem isn’t it? It’s a great idea as long as it’s someone else’s daughters whoring themselves out.

  336. iffen says:
    @silviosilver

    Evidently you are unaware that old whores, if they live to be old, end up at the pig farm.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  337. JackOH says:
    @iffen

    iffen, check any big city Tenderloin, likewise a big city phone directory under “escort” and “massage”, check the truck stops and the no-tell motels near you, or the strip clubs that sometimes cover for prostitution.

    I’m guessing parental approval has been completely vacated by the women working in those places, because, well, prostitution’s illegal and they’re not going to ask Mom and Dad to be complicit. I suppose legal prostitution at least makes it conceivable that Mom and Dad’s approval would be sought.

    I know nothing about how legal prostitution works in Nevada. There’ve been some TV interviews with the women who work there, so I guess it’s safe to say Mom and Dad know how they earn money.

  338. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    However disastrous Prohibition may or may not have been. The problems that drove the Temperance Movement were very real, and remain so today.

    To be fair no-one did, or could, foresee the problems caused by Prohibition. And the massive growth of organised crime happened quickly, and by the time the problems were recognised police forces had been hopelessly corrupted and the problems were out of control.

    It was much the same with drugs. The drug culture simply exploded.

    And government responses to the problems were inadequate and incompetent and half-hearted. In both cases governments did not really want to face the difficulties. That’s the problem with democratic systems – they respond poorly to genuine crises.

    Other governments, non-western governments, seem to be able to deal with the drug culture more readily. Truly draconian penalties help. Small-time drug dealers don’t seem to be deterred by light prison sentences but the thought of possibly being hanged or shot is a pretty effective deterrent. And treating drug users as victims or as suffering from an illness makes the problem much worse. Indulging self-indulgent people is not a good plan.

    As so often it turns out that governments can achieve little unless they have the will to take all necessary steps no matter how drastic.

    I’m not necessarily saying I agree that the Volstead Act was a good idea but it was mismanaged and this mismanagement served to encourage the idea that the best way to deal with social problems is to indulge them.

    • Replies: @iffen
  339. dfordoom says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    To answer your question, if she became some high end escort who went into it because she saw its remunerative potential rather descended into it as a desperate last resort, I don’t think I would have any real problem with it

    I personally can’t imagine ever saying, “I’m so proud of my prostitute daughter. I drive her to her appointments at the STD clinic and to drug rehab.”

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  340. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Indulging self-indulgent people is not a good plan.

    It is also not a good plan to expect self-indulgent people to stop indulging on their own.

    We need a social structure that cripples the ability of individuals to make truly “bad decisions.”

    • Agree: Mr. Rational, dfordoom
  341. @dc.sunsets

    “What is subsidized today?
    –Stupid people having more kids.
    –Ugly people having more kids.”

    The quite nicely answers the question that has been asked by Sailer and other HBD minded people. Before modern socialism and medicine, stupid and sickly people’s numbers were kept in check by natural selection. Most people had no choice but to spend most of their waking hours tending to their own (and their family’s) survival. In the age of comfort, the stupid and infirm have little else to do with themselves but breed more stupid people at someone else’s expense.

    Once the collapse happens, nature will almost immediately correct for this imbalance and Rosie’s never again statement will be proven false, as what’s left of the blue haired land whale brigade will rush to find what men are left to protect them.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Audacious Epigone
  342. Anon[403] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jay Fink

    Keywords:

    in real life

    Airbrush and pancake ftw.

  343. Truth says:
    @silviosilver

    Turned on by the septuagenarians, are we?

  344. Corvinus says:
    @Talha

    “I didn’t really read into his statement that he supported it – it seemed like he was making a causal connection.”

    Respectfully, no. dc.sunsets statement was malicious with its intent. He is not saying “some guys could lose [self-control]”, he is saying that they ought to go on the offensive IF and WHEN there is this doomsday scenario by which the rule of law goes out the window and America experiences an all out “[The] Purge” (movie reference). Basically, he is condoning a white chimp out. No thanks.

  345. Rosie says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Once the collapse happens, nature will almost immediately correct for this imbalance and Rosie’s never again statement will be proven false, as what’s left of the blue haired land whale brigade will rush to find what men are left to protect them.

    I thought you were above fantasizing about the sexual enslavement of women, Mike. I guess not.

    In any event, I note that, in a collapse scenario, you think men will chiefly be useful for protecting women from … other men, whom you obviously believe to be predatory and violent by nature.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  346. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    BTW, AE, herein lies the answer to your question: Why do people hate “incels” (men who won’t join a club that will have them as a member).

    It’s not because they are unsuccessful with women, but rather because they are spiteful, psychopathic villains.

  347. @James N. Kennett

    People are their own worst enemies

    Nothing happens to any man that he is not fitted by nature to bear.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @iffen
  348. @Talha

    The internet in general and social media in particular makes everyone feel as though they are competing at a global level. There is almost no conceivable way that this does not cause harmful inflation of expectations across the board for both men and women. It’s making a lot of people in the broad middle miserable who in the past would not be.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Rosie
  349. @dfordoom

    I didn’t say I’d be “proud.” But I do think — I have no way of actually knowing at this point — I’d be okay with it.

  350. @iffen

    It’s not my scene, so I really don’t know. I guess it seems reasonable that some would, yeah.

  351. @Dumbo

    There is also the practical difficulty in dealing with an inverse population pyramid. How, practically, do we get it to stabilize?

    I’m very concerned that we are heading for a severe economic downturn and potential currency crisis just as the bulk of boomers are about to start exiting the workforce in huge numbers. Hard to see how that ends well.

  352. @John Johnson

    Naive or a reminder that there is a light at the end of the tunnel?

    This is the man who wrote In Our Hands in 2006, a book that almost perfectly presages Andrew Yang’s UBI presidential campaign 13 years later.

  353. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    One positive trend is that college degree requirements are quietly falling away. Google doesn’t even require them anymore in several core positions (ie IT people, not people working in the kitchen or mowing the lawn). The default question we should be encouraging our teenagers to ask is “is it imperative that I get a degree to do X?”, and if it is not, then they should not go.

  354. @Talha

    “Do what you love!” sounds exciting, but it often results in disaster.

    “Love what you do” sounds mundane, but is profoundly sagacious. It’s the key to personal contentment.

    • Agree: Talha
  355. @obwandiyag

    It’s most pronounced in the political world, I think. So much rhetoric is directed at materially lifting up the downtrodden while the sexually frustrated are invisible.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  356. @Art Deco

    I heard Razib wonder in a recent podcast something to the effect of “why not move to Wyoming if the internet is fast?”

    One of the unfortunate personal developments in my life is that I didn’t realize how that would come to sound more and more attractive to me by the day. It’s not the life my wife wants, and in perfect fairness to her, I gave no indication to her before we got married that it was the life I wanted, either, so it’s not in the cards.

  357. Talha says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Nothing happens to any man that he is not fitted by nature to bear.

    Where did you come by this, if I may ask?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  358. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    I don’t know where AE came across it, but probably in Marcus Aurelius, as it is in the “Meditations”.

    • Replies: @Talha
  359. Rosie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    It’s making a lot of people in the broad middle miserable who in the past would not be.

    Sometimes misery is irrational, and in that case, the solution is to stop being miserable.

    • Replies: @ScottC
  360. @Audacious Epigone

    Yes, I got that was your thesis a long time ago. And it’s wrong. Nobody talks about uplifting the downtrodden. They talk about pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. Same as they always did. What planet do you live on.

    Look, poor people really resent people like you trying to suggest that somebody is even talking about trying to help them. Such a load.

  361. ScottC says:
    @Rosie

    Why is their misery irrational?

  362. Anon[403] • Disclaimer says:
    @obwandiyag

    Googling “pulling yourself up” in quotes gives mostly negative results, so I’m not sure that’s what’s going on here.

    Presidential candidates in 2016 were subject to poll assessments on “understanding the problems of poor Americans”. When somebody wants to slam a president they say whatever he’s doing hurts poor Americans. Which, in all fairness, it probably does, because public policy is not actually aimed at helping regular people.

  363. iffen says:
    @obwandiyag

    Nobody talks about uplifting the downtrodden.

    SJWs talk about it all the time; it’s their raisin date tree.

  364. @dc.sunsets

    Agree re: the “reconciliation”. Look at the discord in Chile in response to a 4% increase in subway fares. What happens when the prices of staples like milk and bread double? It won’t be pretty.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  365. @dc.sunsets

    Our society is one of permanent adolescence, where every impulse to vice is actively encouraged.

    Except for smoking cigarettes, eating red meat (especially hamburgers), and soda. I agree with the thrust of your post, but these exceptions are odd, aren’t they?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @dc.sunsets
  366. @dc.sunsets

    Yesterday marked a century since Kipling’s Gods of the Copybook Headings.

    As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
    I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
    Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

    We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
    That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
    But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
    So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

    We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
    Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place;
    But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
    That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

    With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
    They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
    They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
    So we worshipped the Gods of the Market who promised these beautiful things.

    When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
    They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
    But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.”

    On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
    (Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
    Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “The Wages of Sin is Death.”

    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”

    Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
    And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
    That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four —
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man —
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began: —
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

  367. @MikeatMikedotMike

    blue haired land whale brigade

    That sounds like a great name for a World of Warcraft guild. Unlike Make Azeroth Great Again, it probably wouldn’t get banned.

  368. @obwandiyag

    Who is the $15/hour federal minimum (“living”) wage aimed at?

    I understand there are second-order beneficiaries, like unions who negotiate wages based on some entry-level wage plus a premium, but it’s primarily pitched to the poor.

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    , @obwandiyag
  369. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Audacious Epigone

    Our society is one of permanent adolescence, where every impulse to vice is actively encouraged.

    Except for smoking cigarettes, eating red meat (especially hamburgers), and soda. I agree with the thrust of your post, but these exceptions are odd, aren’t they?

    Not so odd when you take class hatred into account. Smoking cigarettes, eating red meat and drinking soda are things working-class people like to do. So those are bad things!

    At the time the Culture War began in the late 60s homosexuality, promiscuity and drug usage were things that middle and upper-class people liked to do. So those are good things!

    It’s not a question of vice. It’s a class war.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @JackOH
  370. JackOH says:
    @dfordoom

    “Smoking cigarettes, eating red meat and drinking soda are things working-class people like to do. So those are bad things!”

    Yep. dfordoom, law professor Paul Campos, I think, and at least one writer at Reason (can’t recall the name) have argued that medical- and public health-sounding rationales are politically correct cover for the hoity-toity to look down on people they want to look down on anyway. I can’t recall details, but I came away from one of Campos’s essays pretty much persuaded he was on to something.

  371. @Audacious Epigone

    The Manual for human social behavior was published in 1841.

    Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. No one’s personal library is complete without a reprint.

    There is no explaining the irrational, and those who think humans are rational beings must exist in Fantasy Land. We LARP rational beings, for the most part.

  372. @Audacious Epigone

    It’s pitched to the poor.

    They just don’t have the abstract cognitive pathways to grasp that raising the cost of unskilled labor simply means less of it will be demanded.

    Each higher increment in wage makes the break-even for robotics closer (if not already tipping the scales in its favor.)

    But AE knows this, as do most of those intelligent enough to peruse Unz.com.

  373. @Audacious Epigone

    What happens when the prices of staples like milk and bread double? It won’t be pretty.

    I expect something far “weirder.”

    Since I interpret the past (and present) as an unprecedented credit bubble (which is inflationary in a way never-before-seen), my expectation is for a debt-collapse deflationary depression and waves of chaotic disruption to the structure of production throughout the economy.

    This should manifest as a phenomenal shortage of money. The next-order effect will be for everyone to put everything up to bid (eBay, flea markets, Craig’s List, etc.) at the same time in a desperate attempt to obtain cash, causing prices to utterly collapse.

    As weird as it sounds, the large-scale view should look like prices diving on most stuff, other stuff (food??) becoming very hard to get (and thus prices could go up or down nominally, but up vs other “stuff”), and most importantly–affordability of everything should decline.

    Imagine: (nominal) prices go down, but people STILL can’t afford to buy.

    Riots?
    Oh HELL yes.

    Political chaos and waves of insane policies?
    Oh HELL yes.

    People are used to the idea that they can “vote” access to “stuff.” But no vote ever made the stuff in the first place. I expect a free-for-all donnybrook over access to a dwindling stock of what’s left in the almost empty cupboard.

    Politics is downstream of collective belief, and currently, collective belief has no clue from where our modern Cornucopia, our “Plenitude,” comes.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  374. @dfordoom

    Proponents of free-market capitalism are as much followers of an ersatz religion as marxists.

    Only with the word “proponents” do I largely agree with you.

    Capitalism (properly defined) is simply what spontaneously occurs when the factors of production are privately owned and operated. It just IS, so it needs “proponents” like “biology” needs proponents.

    Mises said it all in two words: Humans Act. Describing the varying systems they follow in their actions is literally a descriptive science. Unfortunately, people try to make this into an applied science (via politics), if not engineering, and that’s where we go wrong.

    People want to engineer a more perfect world; that’s not going to happen, and all efforts to do so simply make what people want to fix even worse. It’s all about Lenin’s “who/whom.” Who is doing what to whom? All the “-isms” are sold as fixing problems, but all they really do is alter the answer to this question. They are simply a redistribution of power.

    Nature favors one distribution. People like to fiddle with this.

  375. @Audacious Epigone

    And it won’t pass until it’s meaningless and there is much more argument against it than for it. Didn’t you know the sky will fall if it’s passed? If you didn’t, you live in a media-free bubble. And anyhow one little cherry-pick don’t fill a basket. You just follow the “seek and ye shall find” rule.

    Let’s put it this way. If you think the United States of America is just hellzapoppin with undying love for the poor, you must be crazy.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  376. @dc.sunsets

    Ah, so a collapse in all the myriad instruments of credit ‘money’, leaving base money as the only thing remaining, causing both massive deflation and massive declines in access to physical money. The ‘fools’ who stuffed Benjamins under their pillows are suddenly rich and everyone else is poor.

    That really is a total collapse, even more severe than what I’m imagining.

  377. @obwandiyag

    Medicare for all? Affordable housing? Rent controls? A jobs guarantee?

    It’s not the only thing the culture cares about, but it does care about these things more than it cares about a man who can’t find love, doesn’t it?

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  378. anon[251] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Johnson

    You are spending too much time assessing women based on television or what you see at bars.

    Lol at your feeble trolling

    Here, have some data.

    Note the distribution. Note the low probability of a virgin bride in the 2010’s, hardly surprising given that the average age of a US woman on her first wedding day is 27.

    Here is the source for that table of data. Perhaps you and others can read it carefully, examine the methodology, and learn something new?

    https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability/

    As the number of premarital sexual partners of women goes up, the probability of divorce also goes up monotonically. It is not a controversial position, not anymore. This can be determined from GSS data as well. I will look for the study from a few years back and post it in comments when and if I find it.


    I don’t have all the answers but this view of women slutting it up in their 20s is off base.

    The actual data does not support this opinion. What do you do when the facts are contrary to your opinion? Ignore the facts, or change your opinion?

  379. @Audacious Epigone

    I hear about medicare for all only because Sanders says it. Otherwise, out there in the real world, and not on these bubble blog accumulators, nobody knows a thing about it. And nobody at all knows a thing about affordable housing, rent controls, or a jobs guarantee.

    You read to many of these solipsistic, super-rarified, low circulation, preaching-to-the-choir, cherry-picker blogs. It’s like you are locked in an echo chamber.

    I’m telling you, as someone who lives out there all the time, nobody hears all this liberal stuff. And you can tell because nobody believes in it. Maybe you’re thinking of race war stuff. There’s plenty of that, and plenty from the liberal side out there. But very little class war. Ask the average joe about class war. He won’t know what you’re talking about. Ask him about race war and he will.

    Yes, I admit, that probably even less people care about the sex life of lonely people. Probably because they’re lonely, too, but they don’t fit into this stereotype of the lonely young man. The majority of sexless people are young, old, or ugly. And they are legion.

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