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Where do we come up with a thought like that? From what people tell us, that’s where.

For the first time in 2018, the GSS asked respondents if they agreed or disagreed with the assertion that natural environments tend to be uninteresting. The results wouldn’t surprise Teddy Roosevelt anymore than they should surprise Al Gore:

Does the subcontinent seem dirty to you? How about the skies over China? Rendezvous points for aliens illegally crossing the US-Mexico border? Have more trouble spotting a fellow black camper than a black bear? These differential outlooks are a big clue as to why.

The green movement sold Gaia’s soul to the race hustlers and the Chambers of Commerce a long time ago.

GSS variables used: NATLACK(1-2)(3-4), RACECEN1(1)(2)(4-10), HISPANIC(1)(2-50), BORN, PARTYID(0-1)(2-4,7)(5-6)

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Ideology, Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Environment, GSS, Hbd 
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  1. Its a pity that there isn’t a category for Native Americans, because I’d be curious.

  2. That said, that image of rolling smog was oddly aesthetic. I submit other cyberpunk images of our biorealistic future in the Age of Malthusian Industrialism.

    [MORE]

    My image tags were sadly wrecked, so links it must be:

    https://nwn.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341bf74053ef01910330759c970c-500wi

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  3. @Daniel Chieh

    Sample size is only 17, but 5 (27.5%) agree, so modestly closer to whites than other non-whites.

  4. Truth says:

    Well, I mean, causing irreparable harm to the,environment is primarily a white thing too…

  5. Anon[168] • Disclaimer says:

    Wealthy whites like pollution they can export and profit from while producing enough cheap junk to sate the mass of less wealthy whites. Poorer whites turn to opioids and suicide from the lack pollution producing industry jobs. If pollution couldn’t be exported in this way, whites would be polluting much more domestically, the local environment be damned, and it would be better for working class whites. Trash is exported as well, so both the pollution from the production process and the final material waste of industrial products are exported:

    “Treated like trash: south-east Asia vows to return mountains of rubbish from west

    Region begins pushback against deluge of plastic and electronic waste from UK, US and Australia”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/28/treated-like-trash-south-east-asia-vows-to-return-mountains-of-rubbish-from-west

    Before production and thus pollution could be exported on a mass scale, whites polluted domestically:

    “Photos Of Pittsburgh’s Air Pollution: 1940s Vs. Today

    Coal fumes in the 1940s blotted out the sun. Gas lamps sometimes had to be lit during the day.”

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/stunning-photos-of-pittsburghs-air-pollution-in-the-1940s

    • Troll: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  6. Twinkie says:

    How about the skies over China?

    I am pretty sure the skies over China were cleaner prior to the industrialization of that country. I agree that Chinese pollution is terrible (and it affects countries and peoples beyond China itself) and the Chinese government ought to do more about it. But it is also a bit self-serving for those of us living in the affluent, already developed, post-industrial West (which went through its own chimney stack industry phase) to tell the Chinese that they ought to ease up on their industrialization.

    Anti-pollution activism and nature-appreciation seem to be related sentiments, and I would posit that pollution, much like corruption, operates on a J-curve (or a reverse J-curve). As a society industrializes and the standards of living improve, there is a dramatic increase in pollution, but as its economy matures into the advanced stage, people with full bellies and time for leisure activities tend to get disgruntled about pollution (and corruption).

    However, even in pre-industrial times, there was nature-appreciation in East Asia, as can be attested by a long history of nature paintings from the region. Outside Europe and East Asia, I am not aware of any extensive history of nature painting in the past, but perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of comparative art history can correct me if this impression were wrong.

  7. @Twinkie

    Twinkie, I happen to know more about China than most on here, and I will say that, as of late, the Chinese are taking to cleaning up their environment and in a big way, as they do everything.

    That’s not to say that lots of the country isn’t still a mess over there, and I’m not particularly focussed on the air quality. However, as far as planting forests where the trees have been denuded due to the terrible economy under Communism having forced people to burn it for wood, cleaning up (or making people clean up) the roadsides and just generally promoting this the way Americans did in the 1970’s is BIG there.

    I don’t say that there are many, or ANY, John Muirs over there either. The yellow bar up top could be accurate, as they are just not nature lovers. I went to some big caves, and instead of keeping them completely natural, the Chinese had to put colored lights all in them, with computer monitors to guide the visitors, and as usual, 10 X as many people are there compared to a similar natural wonder in America.

    I did go hiking with a Chinaman, though, as described in A tale of 2 Countries (for picking blackberries). I’d like to show him the pristine forest in the Olympic Mountains … someday. For the rest of them over in China, it’s more like governments are not the 5-year-plan industrial-goal-setting ones of the 1960’s. Governments now seem to really be affected by “peer pressure”, whether good or bad. In this case the government of China seems to be pushing this to show they can be number 1 in everything.

  8. @Twinkie

    Another thing is that, compared to the Japanese, and probably the Koreans too (but I’ve not been there), the Chinese are, lets face it, I hate to use the word slobs, but … They have baby clothes that will open up at the bottom and they will get their babies to take a dump on a piece of newspaper 5 ft. of where “fresh” vegetables are for sale. They tend to spit on the ground (haha, funny story at the otherwise impressive – in a business sense – Chinese hospital. The nurse coughed and spit loogies into the trash can in the hallway 3 times while we sat there for 20 minutes. “Man,” I told people with me, “a nurse in the US would get canned for that.” “She’s not a nurse. She’s a doctor.”)

    In Litterbugs in China, I wrote a quick “Get Off My Lawn” story:

    In the house where we stayed, the Dad was on the porch (such as it was) and yelled something in Chinese (of course) to a kid who had just thrown a bottle down in the road. OK, it was a 5 ft. wide alley, but it was a road to them! I am no expert in Mandarin, but something tells me what he said was “pick up your garbage!” The kid, being a somewhat obedient sort, picked it up and put it on top of a big pile of trash about 50 ft away. It was a pile meant to be collected, but as un-orderly as China is, it was just a big damn mess itself. “What’s the difference?” I said, in English.

    They’ve got a long way to go, but then they are now a real “can-do” country.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  9. @Audacious Epigone

    My sample size is just 1, one Indian guy who we’d been in the sweat lodge with, and his trailer and yard. My survey would have a bar right up to the very top!

    The place was a disaster, as I related in Are American Indians Slobs:

    In America we have 2 orders of magnitude more people on the same chunk of land, as there were Indians long ago. Modern technology has both made more mess and at the same time improved ways of cleaning up. The thing is, how much CAN you keep up with? Mother Earth can only do so much. Does it make sense to want the population to increase even more, if you care at all about living in a pristine setting, or at least having a way to get there part of the time to enjoy it? It’s not like PeakStupidity has not mentioned this complete idiocy on the part of environmentalists with a good anecdote regarding blackberry picking. We all like blackberries, right, so think about this.

    OH, right, answer the question: Who cares? It’s OK to be a slob when you have a 24/7/365 maid named “Mother Earth” to clean up after you.

  10. BTW, this:

    Have more trouble spotting a fellow black camper than a black bear?

    is a LOL, A.E. Also, I like this post better than a lot of the graphical ones, as it just seems to evoke more thoughts to explain it, compared to some – that’s probably just me.

    I know you don’t make the questions, but I’d have rather seen the simpler “Do you like hanging out deep in the woods or in the mountains?” instead of what the survey asked. People could take “interesting” different ways, as in “it’s not interesting like Pawn Stars, but I like getting far away from humanity once in a while.”

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  11. Look on the bright side: At least we won’t be leaving anything nice behind.

    That is the bright side, right?

  12. iffen says:

    Save the Serengeti! Save the Serengeti!

    How about instead of saving the Serengeti, we move everyone out of the Midwest and re-create our very own closer to home?

  13. @Twinkie

    All good points per usual.

    To the extent that I’m arguing anything, it really is a cultural argument rather than a biological one. While there probably is some innate predisposition in whether looking at a mountain range inspires awe or boredom, culture–including economic development–probably plays the larger role.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  14. Jay Fink says:

    I would answer yes there are interesting things to do in the natural enviornment. Yet I’m not a hardcore outdoors man by any means. I relate more to the minorities who stay indoors than the survivalist type of white guys who shoot, hunt and skin a buck.

  15. @Twinkie

    I didn’t rope Japan into the rhetorical device for a reason.

    Though what AEN alludes to with China seems to fairly characterize Japan, too. Rock gardens are an expression of appreciation for nature even though the nature being appreciated has been highly manipulated.

  16. @Achmed E. Newman

    For H&Gs and pastoralists, cleaning up doesn’t make much sense. I wonder if there is a detectable relationship between how long a people have been agriculturalists and how much they care about protecting the environment. I suspect there is.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Achmed E. Newman
  17. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    the cause of and solution

    They haven’t been able to figure out a practical way to get most POCs to think and act like whites.

  18. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Junk car density as an ancestry indicator?

    This should be testable in the US. Is the junk car density higher on Kiowa reservations than on Creek ones? In the South, is junk car density higher in communities populated by descendants of reivers or populated by descendants of West African agriculturists?

  19. @Daniel Chieh

    I don’t know how it is in America, but in Canada you’d be hard pressed to find a dirtier, more garbage strewn place than a native reservation. Rusted out cars in rivers, fridges on the lawn, soiled diapers in the trees, you name it. Not to mention hunting and fishing with no regard for conservation.

    It’s a much cherished myth that somehow natives are more respectful of nature than Whites.

    • Agree: BengaliCanadianDude
    • Replies: @Meneldil
  20. @iffen

    Replace them with White people.  Problem solved!

  21. @Jay Fink

    Oh boy.

    1) You don’t hunt
    2) Your last name is an insult
    3) You don’t use the Oxford comma.

    You have some problems to clear up, sir.

    🙂

  22. @Achmed E. Newman

    Interestingly, the primitivist Ted Kaczynski had very similar attitudes where he defended the freedom to litter while advocating the destruction of industrial society. In his case, the former was an extension of freedom of action by the individual, the consequences to which should be limited by lowering the overall impact from technological improvements. To be fair, his ideas may have been have been inspired by Native sources: IIRC he awkwardly asked a waitress if she would be his “squaw” through a letter, detailing his academic qualifications.

    And when a plane flew over his remote cabin, he took to murdering aerodynamic scientists.

  23. @iffen

    You’d have to define “junk cars.”

    Plus there are different types of junk car situations. Some people really are eventually going to “get around” to fixing and selling them; other people, no.

    I know one rural guy, in the North (Pennsylvania), who uses cut-off soda cans for wheel bearings on his riding mower.

    He has plenty enough money to buy real bearings, but, instead, soda cans.

    I think it’s just country habit to make do with what’s around. And maybe he found it amusing.

    He is of generic German ancestry too, not hillbilly blood.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @iffen
  24. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I think it’s just country habit to make do with what’s around. And maybe he found it amusing.

    Its a common Chinese countryside attitude too, but it certainly doesn’t add to the cleanliness of the place.

    In many ways, it does seem more genuinely efficient since “junk” is often repurposed in amusing ways, such as the refrigerator compressor into an air conditioning device. But it does create a lot of spare junk, and lacks the cleanliness of purpose-designed everything.

    One could see it as another example of the destruction of localism and a domestic economy by globalism, even within the same country.

  25. EldnahYm says:
    @Twinkie

    I think the relationship you describe between stages of development and pollution is real, but I expect it only explains part of the differences between countries, and I don’t just mean because of differences in population or resource needs.

    Even if the Chinese did not ease up on their industrialization in terms of output, the fact would remain that many of their industrial works are inefficient therefore more polluting than they had to be. Making matters worse is that Chinese state investment funds a lot of this stuff in places like the northeast keeping it alive longer. One could also make the case that back in the days of European and American industrialization, many of the tools which allow cleaner production were not around yet, and that these tools and methods were mostly developed by Westerners.

    I also suspect if one were to focus on water pollution and compare China to Japan, more pessimism would be justified. As far as I can tell, most of Japan’s water pollution problems were solved in the 70s or earlier. We’re more than 30 years into China’s massive economic growth, and water quality in China is still a disaster. Frankly I don’t think 2o years from now the problems will be solved.

    This doesn’t even get into littering, overfishing the world’s waters, or driving animals to extinction, where the Chinese are about as bad as any group of people have ever been.

    As far as people’s attitudes, I hear people in cities are very unhappy about the air pollution, but I don’t hear the same about water pollution. People still litter extensively(though there are lots of people employed to clean it up in cities, to be fair) and the kind of nature appreciation you describe isn’t really a thing yet. I expect people’s attitudes will not change in a serious way until the generations who lived under Mao are dead.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  26. Worth noting that Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians are overwhelmingly urban, while Whites and Native Americans are not. Can you filter by urban/rural?

    As a lifelong city person I will freely admit that the only “nature” I really enjoy is the (highly artificial) ski resort.

  27. @iffen

    I’m in agreement with the Yankee partisan this time. One man’s junk car is another man’s parts supply. The county people need to stay the hell away – they want people to have to register the vehicles for more tax receipts.

  28. @Audacious Epigone

    Isn’t there a poll and bar graph for that?

    ;-}

    OK, that’s a good question. I would think that’d be the case. No matter what lifestyle though, if the population density is low, as in a few people per square mile, Mother Earth can clean up after us, at least our normal junk.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  29. @Achmed E. Newman

    As a blackberry picker myself, I enjoyed your blackberry story. At least the Chinese appreciate blackberries (a little too eagerly, since they pick them too soon). Around here in Alabama, the blackberries are ALL MINE, since I’m the only one within a thousand-mile radius who isn’t too lazy and/or wussified to pick them. June is blackberry month here, so I’ll start picking next week. I do it scientifically. The berries aren’t real abundant the first week of June, nor the last week, so I concentrate my picking in the middle two weeks.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  30. Sid says:

    It is interesting how there are further cultural subdivisions. The English and Germans have poetry celebrating the sublimity of nature going back centuries. Mediterraneans? Not so much. C.S. Lewis noted that Greek and Latin poetry assesses land only in terms of how practical it is for farming.

    Germans are usually drawn to the Native American archetype, whereas Italians love cowboys to the point they had Spaghetti Westerns.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Sid
  31. Sid says:
    @Sid

    Come to think of it, maybe nature-appreciation comes from living in a certain climactic zone. Japan, Northern Europe, and the northern USA and Canada have green forests, temperate-to-hot summers, frosty winters, lovely lakes, and sometimes high mountains.

    I already talked about the English and Germans, but Scandinavians are also hardcore Gaianists. There’s a joke that you’ll find a Japanese tourist whenever you’re taking a hike.

    It seems to me that environmentalism is bigger in the northern parts of the USA than the southern parts, California excepted. And even there, Northern Californians are more notoriously hippie than the Southern types.

    It’d be interesting to see if the inhabitants of southern Chile and Argentina have similar attitudes, and how Northern Chinese compare with the Southern kind, both today and historically.

    C.S. Lewis talked about how walking in nature brought about a feeling of primordial timelessness in him which he called “Joy,” which was also induced in him by reading Norse mythology. He also called a particular variant, “Northernness.”

  32. @Achmed E. Newman

    My sentiments towards Nature are ones I hold in common with a lot of other white people, but that’s not to imply that such sentiments are unambiguously good. After all, Nature is, at best, indifferent to our suffering. Unrequited love is not necessarily a virtue!

  33. @Achmed E. Newman

    Yeah, that seems correct, that if the population density is low enough to sustain H&Gs, trash isn’t going to be a problem in the area.

  34. @Sid

    It makes sense that an appreciation and reverence for nature is cultivated more strongly among people for whom its benevolence (or lack thereof) played a big part in their survival (or lack thereof). The overlap with agriculturalists vs H&Gs is obvious here, too.

  35. And yet tree-hugger is a white term. Hmm. I’m confused.

  36. Just utter complete nonsense. You put up some dumb graph and actually think it explains something.

    Anyone who says the Chinese do not love nature have never read Chinese poetry.

    European nature-worship begins with Petrarch and really doesn’t get going till the Romantics.

    Nature-worship is a function of living outside of nature. Those living inside of nature have not need to idealize it.

  37. @obwandiyag

    European nature-worship begins with Petrarch and really doesn’t get going till the Romantics.

    Njáls saga doesn’t exist in your world, I see.

  38. @iffen

    And that’s why there’s now a push to make white people think like non-whites (aka like idiots).

    Promoting rap music, negro culture, and basketball are all part of the plan for the white boys with higher t. For the low t betas, it’s all about feminism, homosexuality and transgenderism.

    Frankly I don’t think this will work too well – the full time white African Americans are usually pretty broke and depressed. Can’t make a round hole square. That said, I encourage all redpilled white men, be it as a friend, brother, father, grandfather, or sibling, to guide our racial brethren to the light, especially those who have fallen under the Jewish command. Even just start leading by example. Be an upstanding white man not conforming to social pressures. Then start taking them shooting, or show them your car. Whatever it is, it takes time and effort to turn a young man’s life around.

    It’s our duty to the future generations. We can save some of these white people, especially high school kids.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    , @Truth
  39. @Daniel Chieh

    Its a common Chinese countryside attitude too, but it certainly doesn’t add to the cleanliness of the place.

    Well, it’s all about keeping things in moderation.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that form – and standards of “cleanliness” – follows function.

    If a man is making good use of junk, then he’s a right proper fellow. And people who give him a hard time are jerks. End of story.

    One could see it as another example of the destruction of localism and a domestic economy by globalism, even within the same country.

    “One could see it” is far too modest a way of putting it. That’s what it is: a destruction of localism and domestic economies. Moreover, in the long run, it’s wasteful. And I think above all, what we’re talking about ends up resulting in the death of masculinity. Each succeeding generation of men in this country have grown up with fewer and fewer basic skills. I don’t believe for one minute that that’s more efficient, or that we’re happier as a result.

  40. @Anatoly Karlin

    Blacks and Hispanics were less urban once. Especially blacks. They did not become primarily urban until the middle of the 20th century.

    But blacks in particular did not always have the best of relationships with their rural surroundings.

    • Replies: @iffen
  41. @Sid

    It seems to me that environmentalism is bigger in the northern parts of the USA than the southern parts, California excepted. And even there, Northern Californians are more notoriously hippie than the Southern types.

    Well, the part that never made much sense was southern Appalachia.

    You couldn’t ask for a richer and more beautiful land than the southern Appalachians, but, by gosh, those people knew how to make any hillside or creekside into a trash dump. This, however, has gotten better. And I blame a lot of the current problems – such as mountain top removal mining – on outside corporations.

    But there was just never enough indigenous social capital in Appalachia to properly steward the land. It’s a weird place. I’d need more time to go over my old Appalachian reading materials to give a fuller overview of the various social theories.

  42. @Truth

    Never seen a public park after a birfday party, have you?

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Truth
  43. @Daniel Chieh

    Reality doesn’t exist in yaggy’s world.

  44. @Jay Fink

    skin a buck

    YOU LEAVE HANK WILLIAMS JUNIOR THE HELL ALONE!!!!!!!!

  45. iffen says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    You’d have to define “junk cars.”

    I don’t think so. It’s pretty obvious.

  46. iffen says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    On another thread a commenter asked why there are a hundred and one names for white proles and not so for blacks. One distinction that blacks make among themselves is that calling someone “country” is an ultimate insult.

    • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
  47. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian

    I don’t think telling young white men to avoid falling under “Jewish command” is helpful–for them or us. Teach men to be men and a lot of other things will work themselves out.

    • Agree: 95Theses
  48. @Anatoly Karlin

    Unfortunately the survey only regularly asks where people lived at the age of 16 (really bizarre–wish it would just ask where they currently live, something it has done sporadically before but not since 2000).

    Sample sizes are pretty small, but among n-H whites, the community type most bored by nature are people who lived on farms!

    • Replies: @Feryl
    , @Twinkie
  49. @Audacious Epigone

    Teach men to be men, exactly what I said. Under Jewish mind control, they are not taught to be men.

    So if you see a young or old man struggling with this, help him out. Teach him how to be a White Man.

  50. @iffen

    Why are there no distinctions for blacks?

    Well, a n***** is a n*****.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  51. @the one they call Desanex

    June is blackberry-pickin month in the South, but up in the Pacific Northwest it is in August. When we visited one time, even the city parks had so many 1 1/4 in. diameter juicy ones, you could fill up buckets until your arms were tired and you have a coupla thousand thorn-pricks in you. Ever since then, I HATE HATE HATE paying for them.

    Thanks for clicking on the story, Desanex. Perhaps we need a limerick on blackberries.

  52. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Richer land?? Excuse me? Where are you talking about? It’s rock or red clay.

    Speaking of that,

    Red clay hills,
    rednecks drink wine on Sundays.
    They have their fill,
    down in Doraville

  53. @Audacious Epigone

    Of course, schoolmarm. My apologies, I was out of line.

  54. @Daniel Chieh

    I would imagine that the poll above is mostly comprised of native Americans like myself.

  55. @Audacious Epigone

    How about a commenting rule that, whenever someone, attempts to steer any given discussion into a guilt trip about the “genocide” of muh nadiv amurkins” gets his/her comment flushed.

    That shit is so old it doesn’t even smell anymore.

  56. @MikeatMikedotMike

    I had a question which AE kindly assisted with data. As for your particular dementia, I would like to assist as well: paranoid mental breaks can be treated with Thorazine.

    Feel free to ask your doctor for the appropriate dosage.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  57. Twinkie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Another thing is that, compared to the Japanese, and probably the Koreans too (but I’ve not been there), the Chinese are, lets face it, I hate to use the word slobs

    You are not going to get an argument to the contrary from the Japanese and Koreans about that.

    On the other hand, I don’t think the present generations of the Japanese and Koreans know much about the abject poverty and the attendant grubbiness the two countries had but decades ago.

    China is a society in the midst of an extreme transition, so who knows what it will be like in 10 years, let alone 25 years.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  58. Twinkie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    However, as far as planting forests where the trees have been denuded due to the terrible economy under Communism having forced people to burn it for wood

    Good point. But at least those burnt trees weren’t releasing industrial chemicals and byproducts into the air!

    the pristine forest in the Olympic Mountains

    Mountains in the PNW rule (compared to the sad little hills I have nearby now). One of the my favorite hiking spots in the whole wide world is not too far away from Seattle – Snow Lake in Snowqualmie: https://www.wta.org/go-hiking/hikes/snow-lake-1

    And PNW also have the best cherries in the whole word – Rainier cherries. My wife normally hates cherries, but she love those.

    I love everything about the PNW – even much of the wilderness being federal controlled makes it possible to explore and “disappear into the woods” (where I live now, much of the nearby “nature” is privately-owned)… except of course people there – those unrepentant SWPL commies, I don’t love them.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  59. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    While there probably is some innate predisposition in whether looking at a mountain range inspires awe or boredom, culture–including economic development–probably plays the larger role.

    China has had a very ancient tradition of nature paintings, which to me indicates that at least the old elites in China appreciated nature. But that’s the thing – we are talking about elites here (although I’d grant in some other ancient cultures, even elites didn’t commission, sponsor, or appreciate such art). There was also a history and tradition in East Asia of exiles/hermits/monks living in nature.

    I do wonder whether nature appreciation and outdoor activities are correlated with the rise of literacy and, eventually, the leisure class. What elites do, the middle class soon follows, and I think that was certainly the case with things such as literature and, yes, outdoor leisure in the West (horse-riding, hunting, mountaineering, recreational fishing, boating/yachting, etc.).

    I remember in the 1970’s, there was not much outdoor activities in Korea and Japan beyond the usual hiking, beach-going, fishing, etc. But there has been an explosion of leisure activities such as skiing, mountaineering, scuba-diving, surfing, etc. in those countries in the recent decades.

    I don’t doubt the Chinese upper class and its middle class imitators will follow sooner or later. On the other hand, the Japanese have always had a more minimalist aesthetic sentiments than the Chinese (which shows in pottery, art, furniture, architecture, etc.), so it’s quite possible that the Chinese approach to nature appreciation – even in the future – might take a very different path than that followed by the Japanese.

  60. Twinkie says:
    @EldnahYm

    I also suspect if one were to focus on water pollution and compare China to Japan, more pessimism would be justified. As far as I can tell, most of Japan’s water pollution problems were solved in the 70s or earlier. We’re more than 30 years into China’s massive economic growth, and water quality in China is still a disaster. Frankly I don’t think 2o years from now the problems will be solved.

    Your timeline is a bit off, I think.

    China has had a massive economic growth, yes, but it started from a very depressed low point (communism didn’t help). China’s 2018 GDP per capita (PPP) according to the IMF is still lower than that of Mexico and even Gabon! As a rapidly developing country, it has some ultra modern spots such as Shanghai and the urban infrastructure is being developed at a breakneck pace, but much of the countryside is still extremely poor.

    And Japan still had some environmental issues to the 90’s, because, frankly, even Japanese economic development only picked up in earnest starting the late 1960’s and the early 1970’s, and there is always significant lag time between economic development and combating pollution.

    I am most certainly not a fan of China, but a lot of people apply standards to China and its people that are not quite appropriate for its stage of development. That doesn’t excuse the bad things they do, such as polluting the earth and its atmosphere that we all share (even setting aside politico-economic issues of contention), and its government and people should be shamed by the rest of the world into doing better stewards of the earth, but people ought to have some sense of scale and historical comparisons.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  61. Twinkie says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Asians are overwhelmingly urban, while Whites and Native Americans are not. Can you filter by urban/rural?

    Even more salient would be different ethnicities within that unwieldy “Asian” agglomeration.

    Japanese-Americans and Indian-Americans, I would venture to guess, have radically different attitudes toward nature appreciation and outdoorsy-ness.

  62. Meneldil says:
    @Johnny Smoggins

    Maybe they never really cared about nature, or their attitude might have changed because they’re a defeated people without much prospect from the future, or maybe a combination of both.

  63. @Achmed E. Newman

    I’ve got two lines, maybe you could finish it.

    The blackberry, bumpy and globular,
    Makes excellent blackberry cobbular.

  64. @obwandiyag

    Those living inside of nature have not need to idealize it.

    You nailed it.

    …probably not on purpose, or consciously, but that’s the gist of AE’s post: The more civilized (i.e. removed from nature), the more conservationist.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  65. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    The Scotch-Irish as the main settler population spring to mind. Germans and Scandinavians are big conservationists, the English and their minion tribes not so much?

    • Replies: @Feryl
  66. @Anon

    China buys our trash LOL. Don’t tell Mr. Unz and Mr. Godfree.

    AN INQUIRY INTO THE NATURE AND CAUSES OF THE WEALTH OF NATIONS.By Adam Smith

    The poverty of the lower ranks of people in China far surpasses that of the most beggarly nations in Europe. … The subsistence which they find there is so scanty, that they are eager to fish up the nastiest garbage thrown overboard from any European ship.

  67. @Twinkie

    I’ve been there, Twinkie. As I recall, it’s only a 3 mile hike or less from the trailhead right off the I-90. It was cool to get over that last 100ft piece of the rim of the lake and see it.. That is just the Cascades side – the Olympics are even better.

    Once you get out in the woods, even the stupid Commie crap out of these people stops. Can you imagine how much more trouble everything would be if the woods up there were filled with different from white people as a big majority? (I know your ancestry, but I mean in “culture”.)

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  68. @Daniel Chieh

    The lady doth protest too much, methinks!

  69. @Twinkie

    China is a society in the midst of an extreme transition, so who knows what it will be like in 10 years, let alone 25 years.

    True. I remember as a kid that other kids (our parents taught us differently) thought nothing of throwing a Coke can out of the car window. People changed fairly quickly as littering because “a thing”. I don’t know about China, as it seems to be ingrained in them to throw trash right on the ground, even inside a restaurant. The average Chinaman must figure there’s all that surplus labor to pick after him, even if he might be employed as a street sweeper later on that day!

    Sure, it’s hard to keep a place clean when it’s so crowded, which has been the case for hundreds of years there. You don’t need to make it worse by being a slob. Hell, maybe I’ve come upon a good slogan for the Central Government to exhort the people with, on TV and flyers. Of course, people will read those flyers and then throw them on the ground … so …

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  70. @MikeatMikedotMike

    This isn’t about flushing any comments, but I gotta agree that any box on a form anywhere that says:

    [ ] – Native American

    should be checked by anyone who was born here.

    Now, First Nations, who, swear to God, I first thought were bankers,, along with the Spirits Communities is another story. Those euphemism-generators have been doing yeoman’s work, oh, and yeowomen’s work too, of course.

  71. These are two unrelated things: pollution & “nature”. Of course I am against pollution & support any rational measure to reduce it; on the other hand, I couldn’t care less about “nature”, its beauties, outdoors etc.

    It is no coincidence that ultra-leftist Greens are anti-national scum because, for an average nationally & racially conscious white man- nature sucks & is of tertiary importance. Extremely ethno-centric east Asians are a proof for that.

  72. Sid says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I’ve never been to the Appalachians, but hilly places where the climate is generally hot are usually magnificent. Great, pleasant weather the whole year.

    To speculate, I think that northern climates on the edge between temperate and cold elicits a specific set of feelings in human beings. They’re at once beautiful but dangerous, alternating between bounteous resources and scarcity.

    If a climate is pleasant year-round, it’s taken for granted and seen as a resource to exploit. In contrast, really harsh places (the far north, the desert) sometimes elicit a sense of awe, but don’t instill as much of a sense of gratitude.

    But I’m speculating and I’m sure there are many holes in what I’ve proposed.

  73. @Achmed E. Newman

    True. I remember as a kid that other kids (our parents taught us differently) thought nothing of throwing a Coke can out of the car window. People changed fairly quickly as littering because “a thing”. I don’t know about China, as it seems to be ingrained in them to throw trash right on the ground, even inside a restaurant.

    There’s very little respect for the commons in China, although of course, as you noted that it tends to stay pretty decent due to cleaning squads. Its a systemic issue, hopefully it turns into some form of effective virtue signaling.

    The current method seems to be “trash the commons, then volunteer heroically to clean the commons.” I could see some benefit in it – is it better to put away every dish you eat the moment you finish it, or do you finish dinner and then put away all of the plates at once? It still comes off as fairly annoying.

    That general attitude toward the commons is one of my greatest frustrations.

  74. Having interviewed my black friends, I can conclude that the main reason for lack of outdoor spirit in blacks is that they’re paranoid its a trap by whites to lynch them…..

    This was supported by half of black Twitter interactions on the subject

    • Replies: @iffen
  75. Truth says:
    @UrbaneFrancoOntarian

    Promoting rap music, negro culture, and basketball are all part of the plan for the white boys with higher t. For the low t betas, it’s all about feminism, homosexuality and transgenderism.

    Really?

    If I’m a white man, my son’s getting some synthetic-T shots, and break dancing lessons… just in case.

  76. Truth says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    I have. It was YEARS before the authorities got the park back in order.

  77. Truth says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Naah, there are spooks and shines also.

  78. Truth says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    BTW, the only think constant, Old Sport, is change…

  79. @Truth

    The concept of societal change is an illusion. Despite technological advancement, people remain in the same shitty state as before. The only constants are confusion, fear, and sorrow.

    • Replies: @Truth
  80. Truth says:
    @SunBakedSuburb

    Well a lot of that is a personal decision, is it not?

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
  81. iffen says:
    @Oblivionrecurs

    the main reason for lack of outdoor spirit in blacks is that they’re paranoid its a trap by whites to lynch them…..

    A black person who shows up in a mostly white arena (butterfly/wildflower/bird appreciation societies) gets “swarmed” by the SJWs/liberals/do-gooders/virtue signalers. I’m sure that fear of what is going to happen next is a common response.

  82. @Daniel Chieh

    Are you stupid, dumb or both? That’s all I have to say to your stupid dumb response.

  83. @Daniel Chieh

    It’s not just according to your example, which I do get, Daniel. What’s the mindset of someone who throws a napkin on the ground/floor in the restaurant rather than balling it up and leaving it on the table? This: “Hey, it’s not me or my family or guan xi-buddies that have to clean this up, so I don’t give a rat’s ass.” That’s quite different from decent Americans’ attitudes. I can’t read their minds though, so …

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  84. @Truth

    You don’t know what a birfday is, do you?

    • Replies: @Truth
  85. @Truth

    A linchpin of Matthew Weiner’s “Hate Whitey” strategy, depicting something that never happened in reality, but since it’s on TeeVee of course you lap it up.

    • Replies: @Truth
  86. Feryl says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Well, who inhabits the area? Celtic warriors don’t buy into hippie stuff like Anglo-Teutonic people do.

  87. Feryl says:
    @Aufklærer108

    Teddy Roosevelt was obviously Dutch (e.g., Teutonic), and he established the National Park System which was loathed by the Celts who pioneered the South and West. This legacy of hating Puritan busy bodies has lived on, as Southerners and Westerners still complain about “new people”* arriving and telling them what to do.

    *Actually, Anglo-Teutons, Jews, Slavs, Meds etc. have a track record of showing up not too long after a “newer” area of America is sufficiently established. But in the South and far West, Celts did so much of the establishing that they still, to this day, are resentful of new comers bringing new ideas (whereas people in the Northeast and Midwest aren’t so possessive of “their” territory).

    The Scotch-Irish as the main settler population spring to mind. Germans and Scandinavians are big conservationists, the English and their minion tribes not so much?

    Puritan and Mid-lander English over-lap with Teutonics from Germany, Scandinavia and the Netherlands. For example, the traditional Utah Mormon stock which is drawn from Puritan England, is genetically similar to Minnesota’s white population (and this is why Utah whites are much better behaved than the whites of other Western states). The Northeastern and Midwestern states were dominated by Teutonics (prior to Irish-Catholics arriving in large numbers), while the Cavaliers and Scots-Irish borderer people (more Celtic) set the tone for the South and West.

  88. Feryl says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Still, the “you lived there at age 16” does weed-out transplants to some degree. And non-transplants everywhere (of both genders, of different generations) report having a changed opinion on a lot of issues, over the last 25 years*. So we can put to rest the idea that the “bad” kind of whites are responsible for infiltrating your backyard and “changing everything”. We need to take ownership of what we are and what we’ve done, not blame boogeymen for our problems.

    *Everyone is more liberal, but those who were already strong liberals have become really strong liberals during this time.

    I’ve had people question GSS findings for certain regions based on the idea that transplants are tainting the results for that region. But I’ve had to point out to these people that you can get rid of transplants by controlling for the “you lived there at age 16” variable. You can also, of course, control for generations. Gen X and Millennials in the interior West are substantially more liberal than their elders; it’s not just because of transplants, either.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  89. @MikeatMikedotMike

    But it’s a good reminder of what happens to a people who refuse to repel invasion.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  90. @Daniel Chieh

    The Han need to realize that this is the real ticket to national wealth–trash the commons and then pay people to clean those commons up. Lots of jobs, you see. Forget all this factory production stuff, go all-in on the service sector!

  91. There are two kinds of conservation. The first kind is the desire for clean air and water and the reduction and effective disposal of solid waste. The second kind are issues like bio-diversity, save the whales, nature is good, etc. There is a strong demand all over the world for the first kind of conservation once standards of living are high enough that environmental pollution becomes a noticeable influence on life (e.g. when the economy is such that you are no longer on the verge of starvation or facing the possibility of rape and pillage by the neighboring tribe). The second kind of conservation is philosophically rooted in the German Romanticism of the late 19th century and, of course, is limited to only certain parts of the West.

  92. @Achmed E. Newman

    Well, you captured a lot of it – its the extreme clannishness of it. I’ll add one more significant contributor to this: Chinese ethics and East Asian ethics in general are based on consequential mores while European ethics are often based on absolute “evangelical” mores and this plays into a significant difference in behavior.

    For example, say if you saw someone in a park let his dog poop on the ground and you couldn’t do anything to stop him. You also have a dog, so if your dog also poops, should you still scoop? Many Chinese wouldn’t; they would actually feel offended against their “sense of fairness” that someone else could exert power in such a way, and therefore if they had to scoop, it would indicate that they were lower status than someone who could get away with it. If someone else escaped consequence, then they should also escape consequence.

    A Western, and morally strict view, of course, is that it doesn’t matter if someone else is trashing the commons; you shouldn’t do so. You are a “better person” for sacrificing energy, or even for cleaning up someone else’s mess for free but you will be rewarded in feeling virtuous(or in heaven, etc). Taken to an extreme, its almost a form of masochism.

    Thus the way that China improves is largely overwhelming paternalism. Technology assists in this, I suppose.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  93. @Truth

    Yes, it is mostly personal decision that guides us to our fates. But on the macro level, our individual growth is still limited by the curse of the species. I think humanity has reached its evolutionary peak. Tech philosophers seem to believe that human evolution will be aided by their instruments. Perhaps physically. But our spirits can only evolve from our organic base. The flesh shell provided by the Universal Mind; the god of Christianity, Islam, Judaism.

  94. Truth says:
    @Mr McKenna

    Really? And you were how old in 1961?

  95. Twinkie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    As I recall, it’s only a 3 mile hike or less from the trailhead right off the I-90. It was cool to get over that last 100ft piece of the rim of the lake and see it..

    Yes, it is very accessible (except in the winter), yet it never was terribly crowded when I lived in the PNW.

    That is just the Cascades side – the Olympics are even better.

    I don’t know about you, but there is just something about Snow Lake I find very beautiful and charming. It’s not as “majestic” as the mountains of the Olympics, but I find it “right-sized.”

    Once you get out in the woods, even the stupid Commie crap out of these people stops.

    I disagree. Even in the woods, people in the PNW are, at best, “hippie rednecks.” People are very different in southern Appalachia, whom I prefer.

    Can you imagine how much more trouble everything would be if the woods up there were filled with different from white people as a big majority? (I know your ancestry, but I mean in “culture”.)

    I only saw whites and East Asians in the woods in the PNW, including at Snow Lake. And lots of (unleashed) dogs. I don’t even that will change much. Even affluent and assimilated Indians – who have overrun the Eastside – don’t seem to take to hiking in the mountains, let alone hunting and mountaineering.

  96. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Chinese ethics and East Asian ethics in general are based on consequential mores while European ethics are often based on absolute “evangelical” mores and this plays into a significant difference in behavior.

    You should be cautious about generalizing modern (and communist-influenced) Chinese ethics with those of the rest of contemporary (non-communist) East Asia. The Japanese have a very different attitude to the commons than the Chinese do.

    Japanese (and Korean) children are taught at an early age, for example, to return money/property found on the street to the owners or to the police station. The first time they do so is something of a rite-of-passage ritual. That leads to behaviors such as these, which are less common in China:

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/honest-japanese-return-78-million-cash-found-quake/story?id=14322940

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  97. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Sample sizes are pretty small, but among n-H whites, the community type most bored by nature are people who lived on farms!

    Well, industrialized farming areas don’t have very diverse or attractive nature.

    I love the people in the rural Midwest – they are my wife’s people – but in the main commercial farming areas region, the landscape IS utterly boring. And it wasn’t always so. Those areas were full of trees before the arrival of the European settlers, but the land was cleared and later pretty much bulldozed to create farmlands.

    But people have to eat (or make money by growing corn for ethanol subsidies or exporting soybeans to Asia), eh?

  98. Twinkie says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    You couldn’t ask for a richer and more beautiful land than the southern Appalachians

    What are you talking about? Much of the western side of Southern Appalachia is coal country and looks it. And the soil is pretty bad (rock and clay as another commenter put it) even on the eastern side. There is a reason the English and the Germans took all the best farmlands in the Tidewater area and the valleys (e.g. Shenandoah) and planted the Scots-Irish in the hill country.

    For me anyway, what’s great about southern Appalachia is getting away from other people. And the region has the best folk music in the country.

  99. blackbrit says:
    @Truth

    truth ! that’s for sure ! in britain today if you look at nearly all the television adverts on british television the product advertisers are so scared to lack ( diversity ) that nearly every television advert on british television now has black people in them !!!

  100. @Twinkie

    Whoa, where in the Midwest are your talking about? Most of the midwest was tall-grass prairie before the White man, with short-grass prairie (the Great Plains) further west. Trees only grow wher the water runs.

    Maybe you mean Ohio or Missouri?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Feryl
  101. @Twinkie

    There is a reason the English and the Germans took all the best farmlands in the Tidewater area and the valleys (e.g. Shenandoah) and planted the Scots-Irish in the hill country.

    That was always my impression as well – that the Appalachian region was dirt poor for the same reason that Scotland was – just crappy land. Scenic because that’s the way mountainous regions tend to be, but not a place you’d settle by choice.

  102. @Sid

    Come to think of it, maybe nature-appreciation comes from living in a certain climactic zone. Japan, Northern Europe, and the northern USA and Canada have green forests, temperate-to-hot summers, frosty winters, lovely lakes, and sometimes high mountains.

    Mosquitoes in temperate climates are rather tolerable. In Central Russian forest it’s enough to wear covering clothes to not be bitten too many times and to enjoy your nature outing. Elsewhere they eat you alive (Far North, taiga and tundra zones) or give you malaria.

  103. @Twinkie

    Outside Europe and East Asia, I am not aware of any extensive history of nature painting in the past, but perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of comparative art history can correct me if this impression were wrong.

    Persian and Mughal Indian book illustrations have well-detailed nature backgrounds and hunting scenes.

  104. Twinkie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Whoa, where in the Midwest are your talking about? Most of the midwest was tall-grass prairie before the White man

    About 20% of Iowa was forested before the whites (and, yes, most of the rest was prairie).

    • Replies: @Feryl
  105. Feryl says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The Upper Midwest (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota) had (and to certain degree still has) lots of woodsy wilderness and lakes/swamps. The Great Forests of this region evidently supplied a lot of nice quality wood as this country was being settled (I once read somewhere that most of Michigan’s mature hardwood trees were harvested not too long after the state was settled, such is the nature of Ice People who develop a populous nation).

    The farm Belt of the Southeastern Midwest and Prairie West does tend to give the region a reputation for being dulls-ville, with next to nothing in terms of scenic and natural interest.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  106. Feryl says:
    @Twinkie

    Almost every country settled by Europeans is much more de-forested than it once was. Most of the ancient forests of Western Europe are gone; Britain only has a small handful left (as the population grew, these mature trees were harvested for lumber and firewood.

    Areas with rich agricultural potential (like Iowa) had most of their forests cleared out. There used to be a massive swampy area on the border of Ohio/Indiana, but not long after settlement of the region the white authorities got rid of it in order to reduce mosquitoes and free up more land for farming.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  107. @Aufklærer108

    Nonsense. The despoilers of nature and the idealizers of nature are the same people. Never heard of Big Green?

  108. @Audacious Epigone

    Shooting pepper spray in your own eyes every few days is a good reminder that it hurts (I received pepper spray training in the MC), but not a necessity to remember.

  109. @Twinkie

    the landscape IS utterly boring

    Indeed–except for when the storms roll in.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  110. @Twinkie

    Dueling banjos?

    I’m sorry!

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Truth
    , @Twinkie
  111. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    I see that we can perpetuate insidious stereotypes; we just have to try and be clever with it. Don’t forget to use trailer parks sometime.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  112. Truth says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    LMAO!

    Dude, you almost had your idol liking you for a minute there, then you had to go all SWPL-Thomm on him…

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  113. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Indeed–except for when the storms roll in.

    I got to see two tornadoes up close in the Midwest. Pretty amazing. Almost fun, but for the destruction it caused.

    • Replies: @95Theses
  114. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    The producer for the whole hour show is John Nakashima (that’s a Japanese surname).

    Mark my word. This is going to be the last stand of old America, and I’m going to go down with these people should that day come.

  115. 95Theses says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Hear, hear!

    As the late, great Lawrence Auster pithily put it, “anti-Semitism is a rathole, and once people descend into it, they become, at least politically and intellectually, lost to anything useful in this world”.

    At my age about the most I can expect to leave to the children of my kin and friends are great books, sound ideas, high culture, Christian virtues (including hard work), and – with a little luck – a thirst for greatness in all these endeavors*.

    An irrational hatred for all things Jewish only subtracts from healthy, wholesome, God-revering pursuits.

    *Not an exhaustive list, by any means.

    • Replies: @iffen
  116. 95Theses says:
    @Twinkie

    Very cool!

    Experiencing a close encounter with a tornado – at a respectable distance, naturally – is one of the main things to do on my Life List*.

    *“Bucket list” has always sounded so morbid to these ears. ツ

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  117. @iffen

    Have I indicated otherwise? Calling people monkeys or cockroaches or whatever is emphatically not clever.

    • Replies: @iffen
  118. @Truth

    I grew up on the Ozark Mountain Daredevils–aptly described as “hillbilly soul”–so this is a little casual self-deprecation.

    If you respond with this being the equivalent of “my fellow hillbillies, …”, I have to object (though I won’t go into too much detail–police state and all that).

    Anyway, if you can get it to stand alone, dueling banjos is great!

    • Replies: @iffen
  119. @iffen

    With complete sincerity, that is not my intention. On a personal level, I’m a candor absolutist, utterly impossible to offend. When things are unable to be expressed verbally, they don’t go away, they just manifest in non-verbal ways. I prefer words to swords.

    But there are some realities that it is prudent to bend to. Provocation for the sake of provocation is ghettoizing.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  120. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Have I indicated otherwise?

    Not that I have observed.

    Just don’t try to go moral high ground and think that you are “better” than the people who use the lowest common denominator terms like k***, nig***, chi**, wetb***, etc.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  121. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    You should look around and see who uses the dueling banjos meme and to what effect and ask yourself if you want to throw in with those people.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  122. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    you are “better” than the people who use the lowest common denominator terms

    At minimum, it makes AE more civilized. You seem very resistant to the idea that some people are more refined than others, morally or otherwise. And you take that very personally for some reason.

    Unlike AE, I instinctively prefer swords over words, but even I know from study and experience that people like AE are who build and maintain civilizations. People like me who take delight in violence are temporary expedients, useful in moments, but to be discarded to achieve peace and stability, which most sane people desire.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @iffen
  123. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    I did my best this time.

    I will try again.

    F*** off, you Mighty Morphin Power Ranger Kung Fu Panda artiste.

    Incidentally, I wish that I was more knowledgeable on this new-fangled Internet thingy. I didn’t know that savy tech guys could determine from an IP address that you are in fact such.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  124. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    F*** off, you Mighty Morphin Power Ranger Kung Fu Panda artiste.

    And yet again, that’s just childish. All it does is betray your maturity level, or lack there of.

    • Replies: @iffen
  125. Twinkie says:
    @Feryl

    Almost every country settled by Europeans is much more de-forested than it once was. Most of the ancient forests of Western Europe are gone; Britain only has a small handful left (as the population grew, these mature trees were harvested for lumber and firewood.

    On the other hand, New England has been re-forested, mostly naturally I might add. When you don’t farm or graze with livestock, nature reclaims land.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Audacious Epigone
  126. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    Thereof, Mr. Ph. D.

    Failed again.

    Will try.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  127. @Audacious Epigone

    The comment to which you responded is not viewable by the public.  Hover over the link, the box comes up blank.  Click it, and nothing happens.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  128. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    Everyone makes minor spelling and grammar errors, especially typing on tiny phone/iPad keys. Stop being petty and juvenile and learn to make good arguments. You are not trying your best, I think, but I could be wrong. Maybe this is your best.

    • Replies: @iffen
  129. Twinkie says:
    @95Theses

    Once I visited a professor friend of mine at the University of Iowa after a tornado. There was a large group of people milling about the Dairy Queen by the river that bisects Iowa City. I thought the crowd was there for the ice cream. Nope. The storm/tornado struck a rail bridge just as a freight train was crossing it and severed the bridge, and the train had cratered into the river vertically, with the back half of the trains still dangling on what remained of the bridge. That was quite a sight. Thankfully, no fatality.

  130. Truth says:
    @Twinkie

    Not nearly as much as real estate developers do.

  131. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    Maybe this is your best.

    You have a comprehension problem to go with all of your other ones. My “best” will be when I am able to control my impulse to respond to a comment tagged to one of mine from a vainglorious, pompous braggart who doesn’t understand cardinal directions and who thinks that the American prairie was forrested before the Europeans arrived.

    Maybe this will be the one. Give it a test. Ignorantly accuse me (again) of being a white nationalist.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  132. iffen says:
    @95Theses

    they become, at least politically and intellectually, lost to anything useful in this world”.

    Can someone “think” in terms of k*** and n*****, but never use those words in speech or writing and be politically and intellectually useful?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  133. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    Ignorantly accuse me (again) of being a white nationalist.

    I believe I accused you of being fixated with race wars. Must I link to your earlier comments again to demonstrate?

    who thinks that the American prairie was forrested before the Europeans arrived.

    I wrote that about 20% of Iowa was while the rest was prairie.
    See p.20: https://www.iowadnr.gov/portals/idnr/uploads/forestry/ift_intro.pdf

    Early surveyors’ notes suggested that trees covered about 6.7 million acres or 19 percent of Iowa around the time of statehood in 1846.

    Sorry I was off by 1% though that 19% figure is from well after the arrival of whites in the region.

    By the way, for a guy that is easily incensed by what I write and tries to avoid reading me, you sure do read a lot of my comments not tagged to you.

  134. @iffen

    Fair. Consider me properly chastised.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  135. @Twinkie

    At the surface, yes. But is it conceivable that if we have an apocalyptic scenario that some remnant lives through, we will be unable to access resources deeper in the ground because we’ve already stripped so much of the low-hanging fruit (or low-laying energy sources, in this case)?

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    , @Twinkie
  136. @iffen

    Not never, just not here.

  137. @Audacious Epigone

    we will be unable to access resources deeper in the ground because we’ve already stripped so much of the low-hanging fruit (or low-laying energy sources, in this case)?

    Not just energy.  All the richest ore bodies of most kinds are used up because… they were the easist and least costly to mine and refine.  Iron, copper, tin… the list goes on and on.

    I’ve been watching the progress of things like carbon nanotubes.  We already have doped nanotubes which are better conductors weight-for-weight than copper, and vastly stronger.  But getting them to the point where we are using them instead of metals is still a ways away.

    If we are willing to use fast breeder reactors, the USA will literally not have to worry about energy for centuries because of all the depleted uranium already sitting around.

  138. iffen says:

    If we are willing to use fast breeder reactors

    So you are saying that r selection is the ticket.

  139. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Did you know that the song was used in “Deliverance” without the composer’s permission? Apparently he sued successfully.

  140. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    But is it conceivable that if we have an apocalyptic scenario that some remnant lives through, we will be unable to access resources

    I’ll be thanking the unarmed for storing my resources for me. 🙂

  141. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    So you are saying that r selection is the ticket.

    Beats 0 selection.

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