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BREAKING: DNR Head Alexander Zakharchenko Has Been Assassinated
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alexander-zakharchenko

Alexander Zhuchkovsky reports that there has been an explosion at the “Separ” [separatist] restaurant in Donetsk, killing DNR head Alexander Zakharchenko.

DNR Income and Collections Minister Alexander Timofeev has also been seriously injured.

He had come under increasing criticism in recent years for making loud pronouncements that went unfulfilled, such as promising that the Ukraine would cease to exist in 60 days this March and proclaiming the formation of “Malorossiya” this July. Nonetheless, he was undoubtedly personally courageous, having received a bullet in the leg while near the front line in February 2015, and seemed to have enjoyed much greater popular approval than Igor Plotnitsky in the neighboring LNR (whom he helped ouster in November 2017).

So far, the main reaction from official Russia has been Federation Council head Konstantin Kosachev remarking that this assassination “may have a negative influence on the Minsk Agreements”. :|

***

zakharchenko-donbass-is-russia

“All of us belong to the same Motherland – Russia” – Zakharchenko.

UPDATE 2018/09/01:

Vice Premier Dmitry Trapeznikov has been appointed Acting Head of the DNR. He has close ties with Alexander Khodakovsky, whose enthusiasm for the Novorossiya cause has never been particularly high, and both men are connected to the Donbass oligarch Rinat Akhmetov.

Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs reaction: “We call on Kiev to disavow terrorist methods of resolving domestic Ukrainian problems. We hope that the relevant Ukrainian politicians find the strength to stop the party of war and prevent an escalation of conflict in Donbass.

My assessment is that they are quietly washing their hands off the affair (“domestic Ukrainian problems”). There will be no more significant actions to punish Kiev than after the assassinations of Motorola or Givi.

Alexander Zhuchkovsky has an obituary at VK.com. “Bad politician, but a good person.” Was criticized for his overly compromissory attitudes towards Kiev, but in reality, he had no choice; while he earnestly desired for the Donbass to rejoin Russia, it is not exactly a secret that the DNR’s foreign policy was set by Moscow.

***

Who did it? I strongly believe that it was the Ukrainians. The Ukrainian military (inc. special forces) are getting better, so I don’t consider it technically beyond them. For its part, the Kremlin had no good reason to remove Zakharchenko, a popular and well-liked leader who followed their orders. Nor were there any other DNR factions strongly opposed to him, as was the case until recently under the heavily criminalized regime of Plotnitsky in the neighboring LNR. The Ukrainians are keeping silent because to claim otherwise would force the kremlins to choose between retaliation or humiliation. Not to also mention that the bomb blast killed several innocents, including a child.

 
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  1. Serrice says:

    Press F for a hero.

    With any luck his death is a precondition for a Ukrainian attack on the Donbass that will get things moving again. Porky must be nervous with his 5% approval rating and elections next year.

    On the other hand, knowing the conflict, this might just change nothing.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  2. It is important to understand that the man was merely a figurehead. The “republics” have no real political authonomy at this point, their leaders are eminently replaceable. It is a blow to local morale and Moscow’s prestige, but Kremlin doesn’t seem to care about those. All of this means that Minsk agreements are in no real danger of collapsing.

  3. @Serrice

    Telegram channel that occasionally has political insides claims Ukraine has begun moving more troops to the DNR’s borders.

    That said, I don’t think anything major will happen.

    • Replies: @Serrice
  4. Serrice says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I’ve been very skeptical about anything happening ever since 2015 but with the elections next year something needs to change in order for Poroshenko to keep the presidency.

    With his abysmal ratings no amount of ballot stuffing will win him it. The real question is whether the kingdom of the hohol has the political autonomy from the US to instigate the conflict again – or whether the US wants it to.

    Also, going to try becoming a regular commenter since I’ve been reading you for years. Keep up the good work Anatoly.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    , @Art Deco
  5. Kremlin website published a statement on behalf of Vladimir Putin. Putin says that killers intended to “destabilize the situation”, but they will not succeed.

    http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58425

  6. Sean says:

    They have now got advanced weapons to go with their NATO-Style uniforms, including the anti tank ones they were previously denied. Crucially, the Russian artillery advantage is gone and they now face state of the art counter battery capability. Of course the Ukrainians will mount an offensive..

    • Replies: @DreadIlk
    , @AnonFromTN
    , @iffen
  7. Mr. Hack says:

    Zakharchenko’s death is just another one involving a ‘Prime Minister’ or an ‘Ataman’ or whatever else these megalomaniacs are calling themselves today. They’re all loosers and will most certainly all be swiftly swept into the dustbin of history. I can’t even remember who the other ones were except for the flamboyant “Motorola’. Is he even still alive? As to who was behind the assassination, it doesn’t even matter. Good riddance!

    • Replies: @DreadIlk
  8. DreadIlk says:
    @Sean

    Hubris. World class armies can’t stand up to Russia in their back yard. Ukraine maybe stronger (not even proven) then they were during the coup, but they would still get wiped out. Russia can put in as much pressure as it needs to keep military situation as it likes.

    Only reason why Ukraine may attack would be because they are ordered to. Any open conflict in Ukraine hurts Russia. It will be done over lands where Russians live. Russians on both sides will be dying.

    • Replies: @Sean
  9. DreadIlk says:
    @Mr. Hack

    DNR people tended to be better quality leaders then LNR. I certainly disagree with your characterization. Of course they are all controlled by Russia but that is what probably makes them better then if they were just crowning them selves. Only people who I thought were bad picks for the position was Plotnitski and one or two others.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  10. Mr. X says:

    10 more people died in the bombing. BBC says that:

    “Last week, Ukrainian TV reported that the former ‘culture minister’ of the self-proclaimed DNR (one of the rebel regions in eastern Ukraine) defected to Ukraine and predicted that Zakharchenko would be removed/killed by Moscow.”

    But clearly SBU is covering it’s own ass. The Ukrainians will need extra help from the West to get the fingers pointed away from them for this obvious terrorist attack.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  11. @Sean

    Ukies are notorious for stealing everything and selling it to the highest bidder. That applies to everyone, from puppet “president” Poroshenko to the lowly private in the army. Thus, US weapons will end up either in the hands of Donbass freedom fighters, or in the hands of ISIS, Al Qaida, or similar outfits. Ukies never leave unstolen something that can be stolen.

    Another Ukie trademark is cowardice. Because of that, they did not attack Donbass republics for years and won’t do it now. They will keep shelling them, as usual, killing civilians and an occasional freedom fighter, but that would be the extent of their “heroics”, no matter what puppet masters demand.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  12. Sean says:
    @DreadIlk

    Russia’s backyard is in Ukraine, so they have home advantage.

    “I entrusted the Joint Forces commander with the mission to enhance the Armed Forces to the extent that they shall become not only defense-potent but also capable of liberating the occupied territories,” Poroshenko said during his March 16 visit to the near-frontline areas of the Donetsk Oblast.

    It has been a largely static combination of partisans and artillery that the Ukrainians have faced so far.
    The killings by booby trap bombs of what is now getting on for a dozen of the United Armed Forces of Novorossiya commanders (sometime soon after they argued with Russian officers) will not exactly inspire new commanders to take risks, and their men won’t either.

  13. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ukies are notorious for stealing everything and selling it to the highest bidder. That applies to everyone, from puppet “president” Poroshenko to the lowly private in the army.

    You most certainly must know, being a Ukie yourself! I hope that the college where you work keeps a tight lid on all of the valuable chemicals and other items that you’re most liklye involved in procuring for some black market sales. Janissaries are all the same, always turning on their own! :-(

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  14. iffen says:
    @Sean

    Of course the Ukrainians will mount an offensive..

    “Magnificent! Compared to war all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance.
    God help me, I do love it so!”
    – General George S. Patton, Jr

    Ahh, those Slavs and their intramurals. You’ve gotta love it.

    • Replies: @Sean
  15. AP says:

    Zakharchenko’s replacement has links to the oligarch Akhmetov. Hopefully there will be no sort of integration after this.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  16. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Its funny how Ukrainians look at Donbas and get an ugly picture of what Russia is like, and Russians or pro-Russians look at Donbas and get ugly ideas about what Ukraine is like. There is a common denominator here.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  17. @Mr. Hack

    The difference between Ukrainians and Ukies is about the same as between canal and canalization.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  18. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    And the difference between a Janissary and the stuff that floats within a canal after canalization is -0- .
    The smell is awful!

  19. Putin needs to sacrifice the Donbass to secure better relations with the EU. According to the original statements, which have not been modified, Russian countersancions against the EU & Anglosphere are due to end next growing season. Zhakarenko has presumably objected. The Donbass 2nd Division will now fight for “power/looting rights” amongst themselves, further discrediting Russian nationalism. The population will be (have always been, a few loonies aside, the Russian insurgency was never locally popular) ready to rejoin Ukraine.

    For this and a gesture or two in Crimea, the EU and Russia will lift most mutual sanctions and there will be a substantial dip in Russian inflation, especially food, to make the pension reforms more tolerable. The Russian economy is getting increasingly desperate. China is not Russia’s friend. The Russian back stop was a veto on EU and NATO membership by a refederated Donbass. This is not going to happen and Donbass is costing too much. Putin had the Presidents of Abkhazia and S Ossetia in Moscow last week to tell them the money was being cut (see oil, see Russian exchange rates). Zach wasn’t invited?

  20. @Philip Owen

    That is a great deal of bold but unsourced claims, some of which are demonstrably incorrect.

    Putin needs to sacrifice the Donbass to secure better relations with the EU.

    Does the EU need better relations with Russia?

    … Russian countersancions against the EU & Anglosphere are due to end next growing season. Zhakarenko has presumably objected.

    Why would Zakharchenko have a strong opinion on this?

    The Donbass 2nd Division will now fight for “power/looting rights” amongst themselves, further discrediting Russian nationalism.

    1. What Donbass 2nd Division?
    2. You do realize that this stopped being a Russian nationalist project around 2014, when Kremlin propagandists replaced “Russian Spring” with “Crimean Spring”?

    The population will be (have always been, a few loonies aside, the Russian insurgency was never locally popular) ready to rejoin Ukraine.

    Incorrect.

    45% want to join Russia. 35% want autonomous status within Ukraine. 21% want to rejoin Ukraine without autonomy.

    Of course Kiev insists on the third option, which 4/5 of the population would not be happy with.

    The Russian economy is getting increasingly desperate.

    If you say so.

    China is not Russia’s friend.

    If you say so.

    The Russian back stop was a veto on EU and NATO membership by a refederated Donbass. This is not going to happen and Donbass is costing too much.

    Support for the LDNR runs at about a billion dollars per year, it is essentially a rounding error.

    That said, if Putin is stupid and traitorous enough to do what you propose – which I am sure he isn’t – I do hope the West would put the screws on him, and we (Russians) will Milosevic him at that point.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
    , @RobinG
  21. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    You mean integration with the rest of Ukraine? If so, I somehow doubt that this will actually occur.

  22. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    To be fair, though, I think that the Donbass would have been in much better shape right now had it been annexed to Russia. I’m pro-Ukraine, but I do think that it would have probably been in the Donbass’s best interests to be annexed to Russia given Ukraine’s current shape.

    • Replies: @AP
  23. @Philip Owen

    Missed haloperidol today? Take heart: at least now Napoleon, Julius Caesar, and the rest of your ward agrees with you.

  24. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    To be fair, though, I think that the Donbass would have been in much better shape right now had it been annexed to Russia.

    So would have Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mr. XYZ
  25. @AP

    No way Russians would agree to accept Ukraine now, even if its debt to the international vultures is forgiven. Life is irreversible: what’s done is done and cannot be undone. Ukraine (minus Crimea, which is gone for good, and Donbass, where only masochists would want to rejoin the sinking ship) will have the ultimate independence now: it will have to pay its way. That’s what the self-appointed “patriots” are most afraid of.

    • Replies: @AP
  26. Yevardian says:
    @Serrice

    You haven’t noticed a change of heart in the Neocon Qoqroach over the years?

  27. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    That’s probably true. At the very least, Ukraine wouldn’t have lost the lives of some of its troops in the Donbass War.

  28. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    No way Russians would agree to accept Ukraine now,

    I meant: Ukraine would have been much better off had Donbas joined Russia in 1991. Russia, probably not. It was a poison pill.

  29. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Yeah, I also misunderstood you at first.

    Also, for that to happen, you’d need to somehow make Ukrainian independence much less appealing to the people in the Donbass in 1991. The Donbass voted overwhelmingly for Ukrainian independence in 1991 and even Crimea voted for Ukrainian independence back then. Hopes for Ukraine must have been much higher back in 1991.

    In addition to this, off-topic, but what are your thoughts on having Eastern Europe accept large numbers of Latin Americans? After all, you talk about how easy it is to assimilate Latin Americans (at least those who are 50+% White/European by ancestry) and thus I am wondering if this would be a good way for Eastern Europe to halt its population decline without hurting itself too much.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Hyperborean
  30. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    I meant: Ukraine would have been much better off had Donbas joined Russia in 1991. Russia, probably not. It was a poison pill.

    Not necessarily, as that area has qualitative potential when properly managed – noting the Kiev regime’s desire to have it.

  31. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. XYZ

    The Donbass voted overwhelmingly for Ukrainian independence in 1991 and even Crimea voted for Ukrainian independence back then. Hopes for Ukraine must have been much higher back in 1991

    Voting to be independent of the USSR isn’t by default against separating from Russia. Once elements in other parts of the Ukrainian SSR sought independence from the USSR, Crimea had a noticeable element saying that it should be independent as well – an attitude that has been evident in Pridnestrovie (Transnistria and closely related spellings). Pridenstrive at large sees itself as independent of Moldova, while seeking to be part of Russia.

  32. @Mr. XYZ

    Also, for that to happen, you’d need to somehow make Ukrainian independence much less appealing to the people in the Donbass in 1991. The Donbass voted overwhelmingly for Ukrainian independence in 1991 and even Crimea voted for Ukrainian independence back then. Hopes for Ukraine must have been much higher back in 1991.

    Or, rather it might have been a loss of faith in the central government. To be associated with the losing side – well, there are a lot of people who shy away from that.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  33. @Hyperborean

    I am in requirement of my mental faculties and I see insanity as detrimental to my retention of this forementioned ability.

    Hence, I will try to avoid getting sucked into the maelstrom and simply make the general point that victors attract people like moths, and losers, the inverse.

  34. Sean says:
    @iffen

    I dare say a great many forms of individual human endeavor (including what I shall write here) consist of conspicuous display and are highly competitive in nature. Up at the level of nation states or down inside one’s head among the networks of firing neurons (schemas of how the world is structured and thus how to act once a certain situation in recognized) there are always rivals looking to step in. No Russian leader could have done differently than Putin and remained in power any more than the Ukraine leadership can sit still for inroads being made on their power either.

    Patton was an outlier, and though he liked the German way, they never considered him outstanding, because he never had to fight an enemy on equal terms, let alone against the odds. The Ukrainians have been through a hard schooling and now they don’t have only one brigade, and that not even controlled by the regular army, ready for action as at the begining of the war.

    I think in the new campaign Ukraine will be methodically by the book (and as Maj-Gen Mykhailo Zabrodskyi noted the US army have a handbook for exactly how to do anything you want to do) American procedures are what the Ukrainian army will be operating with now. Being located for real time targeting by Russian drone/ rocket artillery, and then given US training in how to be less conspicuous on the battlefield has made Ukrainian forces the best in the world at modern field-craft, they are like Birnam Wood on maneuvers because they don’t just know how to, they uniquely understand why. Other armies who maybe know more haven’t the patience and rely on speed of movement to avoid artillery strikes, but cutting a dash with mobility does not work now the GRU have stolen US drone tech.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @LatW
  35. Singh says:

    May he find Svarog||

    • Replies: @LatW
  36. @AP

    Russia may not have been better off, but I doubt it would have been worse off. The Donbass clan would have needed to compete against much higher caliber people, wouldn’t have had access to a near guaranteed electoral reserve, and even if it had still somehow come to power, the lack of a Blue vs. Orange division would have meant more incentives to become stationary bandits (as opposed to roving ones). Most likely, it would be just one of several post-industrial shitholes in Russia, that would however now be in the process of recovery and even gentrification.

    • Replies: @Mightypeon
  37. Well, we can call it quits.

    Peskov calls this a “provocation“, which translated into English means “we’re cool”.

  38. @Anatoly Karlin

    In addition, Donbass clan became like that because they had pretty reasonable reasons to feel that they were being shit on for the entirety of Ukraines independence, and thus decided to shit right back.

    The behavior of the “parachutists” Orange authorities deployed to Donbass when they were in charge was basically hardcore roving bandit as well.

    Maidan is just the newest escalation of being shat on, which now features being shot at.

  39. iffen says:

    he never had to fight an enemy on equal terms

    Fighting on equal terms is to be avoided at all costs.

    “Get there first with the most men.”
    - Nathan Bedford Forrest (13 July 1821 – 29 October 1877)

    If Ukraine provokes a war with Russian, the Ukrainian people will be dependent upon the mercy of someone like Putin.

    the US army have a handbook for exactly how to do anything you want to do

    I guess this explains our phenomenal success in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Sean
  40. Being located for real time targeting by Russian drone/ rocket artillery, and then given US training in how to be less conspicuous on the battlefield has made Ukrainian forces the best in the world at modern field-craft, they are like Birnam Wood on maneuvers because they don’t just know how to, they uniquely understand why.

    This reads like those billboard ads one finds plastered all over Kiev (“I want YOU for the Ukie army”). :) My guess is that any further actual war (highly unlikely, if you ask me) would be balls-out, open war, with little in common with the ATO.

  41. ingen says:

    Another likable separatist patsy bites the dust.

    One of this guy’s famous quotes from an interview was that the separatists are going to march on Kiev but won’t stop there, they will then march all the way west to Berlin and then to London and once they, the Russians, finally fulfill their destiny of conquering the Anglo-Saxons the golden age of Russia will be able to begin.

    His other famous quote was said during a DNR live tv conference, after calling the Kiev junta a bunch of Nazis for the millionth time he told the story of his grandma who was captured by the Nazis in 41 and had to go through three concentration camps: Buchenwald, Auschwitz and get this, Reykjavik before she was finally rescued by Americans.

  42. El Dato says:
    @Sean

    as Maj-Gen Mykhailo Zabrodskyi noted the US army have a handbook for exactly how to do anything you want to do

    http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Junior_Woodchucks_Guidebook

    Also, “Grooming Standards!”

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @RadicalCenter
  43. Sean says:
    @iffen

    Joseph E. Johnston said Forrest would have been the great central figure of the Civil war if he had had the benefit of a military education. Zabrodsky the leader of the paratoopers’ raid which is being alluded to above I think said about the training he received in 2005-2006, at the United States Army Command and General Staff College that lots of people have ideas of what is to be done but when it comes time to do it they are lost. He said it is simply amazing how the US army had specific manuals to spell out planning for any type of contingency., He speaks good English and looks a lot less likely to drop dead than the average Russian generals who seem to perish from the stress of planning without professional support. Sergun (said to be a moderate drinker} died partly of overwork and lack of sleep.


    Ukraine would like to inflict an attrition WW1 front line situation. Many of your examples even Korea as it started, were proxy wars in which the real opponent was not directly engaged, but eventually told their protege to come to terms with the US. Ukraine is not such a small country and with Western backing a deliberate stalemate to bleed Russia is their best bet for eventually getting a withdrawal from Donbass, probably by Putin’s successor. Ukraine can be a puppet that pulls its own strings.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  44. Art Deco says:
    @Serrice

    Two of the six leading presidential candidates are pro-Russian. They’re currently being outpolled by the other four candidates by a margin of 3 to 1. Your Russophile parties are currently being outpolled by the other parties by a margin of 3.5 to 1. You might try losing gracefully rather than lying your tuchus off.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  45. iffen says:
    @Sean

    Ukraine would like to inflict an attrition WW1 front line situation.

    I think that Russia has learned from its adventure in Afghanistan and from watching our many mis-adventures in modern warfare. Ukraine will probably pray for such a war should they provoke Russia.

  46. iffen says:
    @El Dato

    Also, “Grooming Standards!”

    Currently being held in abeyance pending revision to include transgenders and other misfits.

    • LOL: Talha
  47. iffen says:
    @Sean

    if he had had the benefit of a military education.

    Didn’t seem to have helped Johnston all that much.

  48. @Anatoly Karlin

    I make the argument that EU-Russia ties are very necessary:

    While it is true that neoliberalism.txt hates Russia for ideological reasons, keep in mind that there are over 100 million “based” whites out there in the EU, most of whom are neutral or pro-Russia. Once their countries become cesspools, e.g. becoming a poor man’s Islamic version of 2018 US, there will be inevitable white flight.

    Russia has lost an entire century to communism, and in order to pick up where it left off quickly, it needs to combine both the Russian millennials and Generation Zyklon of Western Europe to develop a full-blown independent industry. It needs to reach out to such Europeans by promoting Moscow as a “white” megacity, and that everything SWPL they currently enjoy in Europe can continue to be enjoyed in Russia, albeit without the growing nonwhite ghettos e.g. promoting tourism. Likewise, it should update its institutions as a whole to be on EU standards, minus the neoliberalism.

    To attract Generation Zyklon of Western Europe, it is important to maintain strategic ties with EU countries countries like Austria, Czech Republic, Hungary and Italy and all EU right wing political parties (including even the Polish Gen-Z right wingers; at this point, only the Baltics and Galicians are permanently written off). This requires strong EU-Russia ties.

    As an unrelated note, Russia should also upgrade and then aggressively promote St. Petersburg, as it will likely be more popular than Moscow for that Gen-Zyklon crowd: If this plan works though, its also important to spread them into the millionki gorods

    With the already high quality Russian millennials and gentrifying cities joined by millions of conservative Western Europeans (who will be asked and forced to assimilate), Boer farmers, and a crime free, non-corrupt business friendly environment, this is a potential Golden Age for Russia that it has never seen before.

    I make the argument that Russia shouldn’t relegate itself to being a junior partner to China:

    Overdependence on China however, will lead to several problems. One is that it won’t be able to compete with the V4 for Generation Zyklon white flight. In the worst case scenario, if China somehow manages to turn Russia into another Southeast Asia, then Chinese will be the second language, they’ll use their own people and companies to manage and even man their investments in Russia, and just an overwhelming feel of Chinese being the main foreign influence.

    In this case not only will neoliberalism.txt continue to be an enemy, but the based whites will start viewing Russia as an Asian/Oriental country, with the svidomy rejoicing in the background. This would mean Russia misses out on yet another great opening. Russia would survive just fine in this case, but instead of a Golden Age of any sort, it will just stagnate for yet another century. It will be essentially a less savage and more economically prosperous version of the Golden Horde, as the Chinese are much more business- and academic-oriented and much less savage than the Mongols.

    Keep in mind that right now, China views Russia as a partner in order to kill 3 birds with one stone: 1. Keep the strategic rear stable. 2. Learn from the Russian military. 3. Have a backup plan in case of confrontation with US, meanwhile Russia right now has interests in maintaining close ties to China for 1. sanctions alleviation and 2. Show the West that its not isolated.

    However, 10 years or so down the road, everything would change. China will be objectively more powerful than Russia in every way imaginable. It would have money to invest in Russia, but on the other hand it has no interests in having a powerful independent Russia, as that would be a formidable competitor, and could even derail OBOR. So it would strive for Russia to be a stagnant junior partner/vassal state, occupying the roles of resource appendage and transit hub. At this point, an amicable second Sino-Russian split done on good terms would be necessary, such as non-intervention in each others neighborhoods, a free trade deal, and Russia can “sell” Central Asia to China.

    Just like communism meant Russia lost several generations and an entire century, vassalage to China in the 21st century would mean continued stagnation as a resource extraction nation, this time possibly with a presence of a foreign, Asian elite.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  49. @Art Deco

    Two of the six leading presidential candidates are pro-Russian. They’re currently being outpolled by the other four candidates by a margin of 3 to 1. Your Russophile parties are currently being outpolled by the other parties by a margin of 3.5 to 1. You might try losing gracefully rather than lying your tuchus off.

    He was referring to President Poroshenko’s political future, which is indeed in doubt. (Which reminds me that there were already Election 2019 billboards, or what looked like it, up when I visited Kiev back in July, and Poroshenko’s seemed very militaristic; Tymoshenko’s bore the slogan “A new economic course,” or some such, so I assume she thinks it’s the economy, stupid.)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Art Deco
  50. @Swedish Family

    That “Art Deco” post only shows that he/she/it does not know anyone in Donbass. The post suggests that he/she/it gets his/her/its info from Ukie propaganda, which is even more lying than Western propaganda (if that is possible).

    Also, a reality check: all main contenders for the post of Ukrainian puppet “president” are recycled and reused old thieves. Timoshenko is famous for stealing billions on reselling cheap Russian gas to Western countries (that’s why she is called “gas princess”). She closely worked with convicted (in the US) criminal Lazarenko, but now they never mention each other (smart thing: they know too much dirt on each other to make reminding about that connection safe). She was a big player in the “Orange Revolution” in 2004, as well as Prime Minister under Yushchenko, etc. Poroshenko was a prominent figure in Yanukovich’s Party of Regions, and a minister in his government.

    That’s one of the problems of Ukraine: all prominent politicians since 1991 were shit, and they keep reshuffling the same deck of cards for almost three decades now. It is said that doing the same thing and expecting a different result is a sure sign of schizophrenia.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  51. @AquariusAnon

    Okay, sure, this is an argument you have made quite a few times. But the question is why the EU should reward Russia for moving out of Donbass.

    As opposed to, say, moving the goalposts on to Crimea.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AquariusAnon
    , @Philip Owen
  52. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Several EU politicians have suggested some sort of accommodation for Crimea and it seems that no one really thinks Russia will hand it back, but expressions towards Russian involvement towards Donbas are more universally negative.

    Re-integration is not in Ukraine’s best interests, the longer Donbas people don’t vote in Ukrainian elections, the better. But corrupt Donbas in Ukraine might serve Ukraine’s corrupt elites. As I had mentioned elsewhere, the Opposition Bloc has been working with Poroshenko’s party to thwart corruption reform efforts. Expanding the Opposition Bloc’s electorate (while not enough to give them a chance to actually win an election) could serve Poroshenko’s interests.

  53. She closely worked with convicted (in the US) criminal Lazarenko, but now they never mention each other (smart thing: they know too much dirt on each other to make reminding about that connection safe).

    Richard Sakwa writes about this in Frontline Ukraine (highly recommended, even though his source material is a bit hit and miss):

    Yulia Tymoshenko made her fortune in the gas-trade business in the 1990s, becoming one of the richest oligarchs in the country. Born on 27 November 1960 in Dnepropetrovsk, she is one of Ukraine’s most colourful business and political leaders. With her trademark braided hair, she is both charismatic and divisive. Her United Energy Systems of Ukraine (UESU) was a forerunner of RUE in acting as a privately owned intermediary that imported Russian natural gas to Ukraine from 1995 to 1 January 1997, the period when she gained the moniker of ‘gas princess’. In 1999 she formed her own party, Batkivshchyna (Fatherland), and soon after became the deputy prime minister for the fuel and energy sector, locking horns with the oligarch groups that controlled the economy. In 2001 she was dismissed and prosecuted for gas-smuggling and tax evasion, being placed under arrest for 42 days. Later, an FBI investigator, Bryan Earl, provided vivid insight into how the system worked:

    When he [Pavlo Lazarenko] was the chairman of Dnepropetrovsk Oblast, he visited all the successful businessmen and said: ‘give me 50% of your profits […] if you give me the money, I’ll guarantee that you’ll stay in business and that your business will be successful.’ Later Lazarenko moved higher up the political ladder, becoming deputy prime minister and then prime minister. […] When he emerged on to the national stage, he began to extensively manipulate the structure of natural gas imports. Whereupon, virtually overnight, Yulia Tymoshenko and her company became Ukraine’s largest gas importer. [27]

    In the end, in February 1999 Lazarenko fled to the US, where he was later sentenced to eight years’ imprisonment for extortion and money-laundering. Tymoshenko appears in these proceedings as a ‘co-conspirator’, but was never sentenced, an anomaly that remains unexplained.

    [27] ‘FBI agent on Tymoshenko’s role’, Kiev Times (19 May 2014). Available at http://thekievtimes.ua/politics/375348-agent-fbr-o-roli-Tymoshenko.html

    Anyone has any idea why she was let off the hook?

    And while we’re on the subject of Sakwa’s book, I found this aside intriguing:

    The referendum was brought forward to 16 March, and after much debate over the wording, the ballot in the end consisted of two simple questions (printed in the Russian, Ukrainian and Tatar languages): ‘Are you in favour of the reunification of Crimea with Russia as part of the Russian Federation?’ and ‘Are you in favour of restoring the 1992 constitution and the status of Crimea as part of Ukraine?’ According to the referendum commission, 83 per cent of Crimea’s eligible voters cast their ballot (1,274,096), of whom 96.7 per cent backed reunification with Russia (1,233,002). Thus, 82 per cent of the total Crimean population apparently voted in favour. There were no independent Western observers, and thus the vote inevitably attracted widespread criticism. A report of the Russian Presidential Council for Civil Society and Human Rights later estimated that turnout was in fact only between 30 and 50 per cent, of whom 50–60 per cent voted for unification with Russia, with a higher turnout of 50–80 per cent in Sevastopol, the overwhelming majority of whom voted in favour. Thus in the peninsula as a whole, only between 15 and 30 per cent of the total population voted to join Russia.[6] Kiev and the Tatar Mejlis, the presidium of the traditional Crimean Tatar parliament, the Qurultay, urged voters to boycott the referendum, and if turnout fell below 50 per cent the vote would automatically have been invalidated, and the majority of Tatars apparently abstained. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to assume that even in perfect conditions a majority in Crimea would have voted for union with Russia, and in Sevastopol the vote would have been overwhelming.[7]

    [6] 6 Paul Roderick Gregory, ‘Putin’s “Human Rights Council” accidentally posts real Crimean election results’, Forbes (5 May 2014). Available at http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/ For the report itself, see ‘Problemy zhitelei Kryma’, 21 April 2014, http://www.president-sovet.ru/structure/gruppa_po_migratsionnoy_politike/materialy/problemy_zhiteley_kryma.php

    [7] 7 For a study of the ‘30 days that shook the world’, see Anatoly Belyakov and Oleg Matveichev, Krymskaya vesna: 30 dnei, kotorye potryasli mir (Moscow: Knizhnyi mir, 2014).

    News or fake news?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  54. @Mr. X

    Terrorist attack? It was war.

  55. How has Ukraine changed since 2014?

    How has the breakaway republics in the Donbass changed since so14?

    What is the situation economically, demographically, educationally/knowledge in general, culturally, innovation, etc?

    • Replies: @AP
  56. @Anatoly Karlin

    Here’s my proposals for how to deal with Donbass:

    1. Russia should NOT move out of the Donbass, since this is an area where 75% of the population is Russian (yes, I know that ethnic Ukrainians are a majority in the region, but I think the 2001 census “language” is a MUCH better gauge of what the ethnicities truly are, which states 68% Ukrainian and 30% Russian as first language).

    2. Russia should make sure that LDNR instead of just a tiny sliver of territory, encompass all of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts and then immediately call it quits after making sure this happens without pushing any further. Sovereignty should belong to Ukraine, but the administration should be the current LDNR administration.

    Military: The current LDNR forces can be reorganized as “self defense forces” of the new Autonomous Republic of Donetsk (Luhansk) that shall be a branch of the Ukrainian military, and the leader of which shall be subordinate to the Ukrainian Minister of Defense. Some self defense force military bases shall be jointly used with the regular Ukrainian military.

    The Donbass Self Defense Force shall not have any jurisdiction outside of the Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts. While it can hold joint exercises with Russian forces stationed in the Donbass, all other military exercises involving foreign powers it holds not including Ukraine must have Ukrainian approval.

    Russia shall be allowed to station around 20,000 soldiers permanently in LDNR, which can be immediately mobilized if Ukraine doesn’t honor its end of the agreement. Likewise, if Russia goes overboard, Ukraine will already have troops stationed in the Donbass self-defense bases.

    3. Economically, the Ukrainian hrvynia should be used, but it should have the freedom to arrange its own bilateral external affairs, such as open skies or free trade treaties, independent of Ukraine. It should also have the freedom to have its own “economic and cultural offices” in foreign countries. Foreign affairs remain in the hands of Ukraine authorities. Since Donbass Self Defense Force will be a unit of the Ukrainian military, Ukraine would technically be responsible for the defense of Donbass

    4. Other freedoms it should have is to have its own Constitution and its own educational system, and maintain its own borders. An internal, domestic border between Donbass and Ukraine can be erected.

    5. The Ukrainian government will be represented by a Liaison Office, which will have slightly more powers than a consulate, but not allowed to meddle in internal affairs of operations. All other governments, including Russia, should be represented by a Consulate-General.

    4. Any vestiges of sovokism should be removed.

    5. Crimea is a non-negotiable regular Russian oblast at this point.

  57. Once this is done, similar talks should be made with Georgia on Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and Moldova on Tiraspol.

    Visa free travel to Ukraine should be suspended in the meantime before such a deal takes hold. Its impossible to have visa free travel with a country that bans air travel with your nation, and your nations’ websites, AND waging war on your diaspora population. All gas should be turned off to Ukraine. Sanctions against Ukraine by Russia should match US sanctions on Iran, minus the third party sanctions which would indeed be detrimental for Russia.

    Once such a deal happens with Ukraine, it should be formalized in the UN, in order to raise the possibility of secure FDI from EU and China (especially China) to rebuild and re-integrate Donetsk to the global economy. At this point, Russia has the upper hand in deals, because it can let the world know that it can simply invade Ukraine, and kick off a WW3 that it can actually win in its own backyard.

  58. Art Deco says:
    @Swedish Family

    He was referring to President Poroshenko’s political future,

    I’ve been a participant in these discussions on and off for several years. Mr. Sailer’s votaries at one time were shot through with Putin press agents who blathered on and on as if Mr. Poroshenko had not been elected to his position or as if Mr. Yanukovich own political party had not deserted him. “Bloody coup”, “Maidanists”, “Nazis” blah blah. Then there is this segment of Mr. Karlin’s votaries who fancy Ukrainian nationality is some sort of hoax and fancy Ukrainians are untermenschen who need to be organized and ruled by Russians. If you insist, he’s just talking about one particular politician.

  59. Art Deco says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Sociopathic guiltlessness while telling blatant lies doesn’t make your statements true. Being verbose about it doesn’t improve your veracity, either.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  60. @AquariusAnon

    Sovereignty should belong to Ukraine, but the administration should be the current LDNR administration.

    Did you ever ask the people of Donbass about that? That’s like giving sovereignty of the hen house to the fox.

    domestic border between Donbass and Ukraine can be erected

    That’s a contradiction in terms: there can be no border within the same state.

    The great majority of Donbass population has no desire to rejoin sinking Ukrainian ship. The people are split about 50:50, half preferring being part of Russia, the other half preferring independence. Fewer than 10% want to have anything to do with Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  61. @Art Deco

    Sociopathic guiltlessness while telling blatant lies doesn’t make your statements true.

    Are you talking about yourself and other Ukies? Then it makes sense.

  62. @AnonFromTN

    Hong Kong is technically a part of China, but there’s a big beautiful international border between the 2. Why can’t Donbass and Ukraine be the same?

    And regarding Donetsk, I emphasized clearly that while it will be a part of Ukraine and use Ukrainian currency, all domestic affairs and non-military bilateral agreements with foreign states will be completely autonomous and Ukraine would have no say how it conducts those, so it doesn’t matter if Ukraine is a sinking ship. In fact, all institutions and the civil service/government will function separately from Ukraine. It will even defend itself just that its military will be a unit of the Ukrainian military.

    We need a deal that’s good enough for Ukraine to sign, but make sure that LDNR continues to run itself with Russian help.

    This is essentially a modified version of how China solved the HK question, and how it plans to solve the Taiwan question. And I’ve added Russian military into the question so that Donbass won’t have its autonomy encroached. Since it will have the freedom to conduct its own bilateral external affairs, it can even arrange its own free trade, open skies, and open borders agreement with Russia without including Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  63. @AquariusAnon

    What you describe is called independence.
    Not to mention that current Ukrainian “leaders” would never agree to any sensible solution. Their puppet master placed them where they are to use them as a battering ram against Russia. Although they turned out to be too rotten to be used as a battering ram, they still don’t give a hoot about the people of Donbass, as well as about the people in the remainder of Ukraine they now control. Look at their policies: total destruction of healthcare, incessant hikes of natural gas prices, etc. From the perspective of normal Ukrainians, they are traitors who should hang from lampposts, not the people one can negotiate with. Nothing good will happen until they hang. After that, Ukraine can become a viable state, a federation or a confederation, as Donbass is not the only region that wants autonomy: look at Trans-Carpathian region, or Odessa, or Kharkov, etc.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  64. @AnonFromTN

    True, this is essentially self-governance but with some (actually a lot) face saved for Ukrainians. Donbass residents will still be Ukrainian citizens, fly the Ukrainian flag, use hrvynias, and their military a direct branch of the Ukrainian military.

    Maybe Ukrainians can have the freedom to move to Donbass without hassle provided they find jobs/school and vote in their original jurisdiction up until a certain period of continuous residency. Even the original svidomists from Galicia will end up voting pro-Russia after continuously living/working in Donbass for say, 10 years, and calling it home, if Donbass indeed ends up being much more prosperous.

    Their passports should read something like “Autonomous Republic of Donbass, Ukraine,” which should be issued to all permanent residents of Donbass with Ukrainian citizenship i.e., everyone who didn’t apply for a Russian passport living in the LDNR or moved there for 10 years after my deal

    If the Ukies don’t agree to this, then simply threaten to invade Kiev, which can still be done albeit with bloodshed, and this time the Ukies instead of giving away Donbass in a face-saving deal maintaining territorial integration, the deal will be far, far worse. There’s no way the US will do anything for otherwise, it’d be WW3. Russia won’t even face Iran-level sanctions from the EU unless the EU wants the Euro to collapse alongside the Ruble (albeit to a lesser amount) and on top of that, have heat rationing in the dead of winter. It gets cut off from the US, so what?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  65. RobinG says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This is “UKRAINE ON FIRE” Weekend. WATCH NOW

    UKRAINE ON FIRE The Real Story Full Documentary by Oliver Stone Original English version

  66. If my deal works out, and Donbass becomes a prosperous industrial center and entrepot for international businesses intending to do business with the corrupt Ukies, then watch their whole house of cards tumble.

    Doing so, however, includes upgrading Donbass institutions to EU-levels of competence and corruption, otherwise, it will wallow in poverty alongside Ukraine (more like in Ukraine as an autonomous region), as essentially a shittier, smaller Belarus

  67. AP says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    As the only one here has spent time in Ukraine in 2013 and 2017, I will say:

    Obvious economic improvement in the western part of the country (more development, more luxury stores, etc.), noticeable but slight decline in Kiev (i.e., shops and restaurants have plenty of people, people work and live normal lives, but salaries are lower and the really expensive stores that used to have shoppers are now mostly empty), slight improvement in the center-west (i.e., Zhytomir, which has gotten some new German auto part plant). I haven’t been to the East but it seems to have gotten significantly worse.

    Western Ukraine and Kiev have a very strong IT sector, that keeps building itself up.

    More people have left to work for Poland, because it has become really easy to do so and because the currency drop makes Polish wages very good for people who bring the money they have made back. People work in Poland for 6 months, and return for a few months. Young people who want a “nest egg” to buy a flat or build up savings in Ukraine before starting a family do the same. One of my cousins did this when his new bride was pregnant.

    Politically everyone dislikes Poroshenko, but nobody wishes Yanukovich was back or regrets that he was thrown out. Dislike of Poroshenko translates into support for some other pro-Western politician, one whom people hope will end the corruption. This is true in the center and west, it may be different in the east.

    Much more nationalistic. Central Ukrainians in 2017 look a lot like Galicians did in 2013. War is good for nation-building projects.

    Compared to 2013, one sees more soldiers everywhere. Trains have people in camo coming home from their service. This makes them more nationalistic.

    Ukraine has been improving its military a lot, in 2014 it had a shambling 90s Yeltsin-like military (but worse, because the decline had been longer), in terms of training and hardware it is now probably like Russia’s was during Putin’s first presidency, in the early 2000s. Still along way to go, but obvious progress has been made.

    For example, this new cruise missile is now ready for mass production:

    https://defence-blog.com/news/ukraine-reveals-details-newest-cruise-missile.html

    It looks to be similar to the Russian “Uran” missile that entered Russian service in 2003 and which Russia still uses. Sevastopol is in range of these if they are positioned in Odessa oblast.

    Overall, Ukraine feels like more of a “Ukrainian” state. People were glum and fatalistic in 2013. They are still complaining, but are not as hopeless.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  68. @AquariusAnon

    Putin is waiting, as time is on his side. Very few things grow in Ukraine, and all of them are really bad for it: prices, external debt, and migration of able-bodied residents to work elsewhere (Russia and Poland are the main destinations, although Ukrainians work illegally in many countries). Putin waits until another Chernobyl-like disaster strikes on one of their aging nuclear power stations or chemical plants. After that scared impotent Europe would beg Russia to restore order (take hand grenade out of monkey’s hands, so to speak) and very likely would even be willing to pay for it.

    There would be no Russian move before that. Besides, the mood changed dramatically since 2014. The majority of Russian population (as far as I know) is now adamantly against taking over Ukraine. Many say “we are not brothers, we’d be ashamed to have brothers like that”. Putin’s strategy might make sense for Russia, but the people of Donbass suffer every day. Then again, Putin is the President of Russia, not the President of Donbass. I acknowledge that intellectually, even though emotionally I’d prefer him to act decisively: I grew up in Donbass and have many friends there.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  69. @AquariusAnon

    1. What’s in it for the Ukraine?

    2. Political realities rule it out. Even Ukrainian politicians who seek an accomodation on Crimea get ostracized and criminally prosecuted (see Andrey Artemenko).

    3. Those borders aren’t going to move themselves.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  70. @Anatoly Karlin

    This requires Russia to use its military effort to push Donbass borders to encompass all of Donetsk and Luhansk. Russia can certainly do this, but this will mean that a lot of the Syrian war effort to be refocused on Donbass. A lot of bloodshed will happen since the Ukrainian army is at the level of 2000 Russian military.

    Ukraine will most likely be defeated after putting up a very good fight; they probably won’t have much choice in the resultant Donbass negotiations since they’ll be essentially surrendering Donbass away. What I propose is just face-saving for Ukraine because this is necessary for any future Kiev-Moscow cooperation: Ukraine still has over 35 million people without Crimea and Donbass after all, and speaks Russian. Its an important but not truly necessary market to have for Russian companies.

    • Replies: @AP
  71. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    You just like Donbas for its architecture:

  72. @AP

    Thanks for the travel report.

    • Replies: @DreadIlk
  73. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    In the 18th century Russia pursued a policy towards Poland involving having that country be decentralized and, essentially, rule by magnates, some of whom were allied with Russia, thus giving Russia veto power over Polish policies. When Poles rebelled against this arrangement, some Polish magnates called in the Russians and eventually Poland disappeared.

    Forcing such a Donbas into Ukraine on such terms is somewhat of a 21st century version of this policy. No Ukrainians are interested in this.

    Ukraine still has over 35 million people without Crimea and Donbass after all, and speaks Russian

    Donbass-less Ukraine is probably around 40% Russian-speaking.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  74. @AnonFromTN

    Btw, this is not on topic, but do you live in Nashville? Its my favorite city in America.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  75. @AquariusAnon

    Yes, I do. I am not particularly fond of Nashville, as I don’t like Country music. I am OK with Bluegrass, though: they make fun of everything, including themselves.

    Nashville is kind of inoffensive. People are Southern-style friendly: they will let you change lanes, unlike in NY, where you have 20 milliseconds to make your move. However, people in Nashville generally drive a car like they are riding a horse: they can turn right from the left lane, or left from the right lane, so you have to watch out.

    There are lots of parks right in the city, and what people here call heavy traffic would be considered empty road in NY. So, nothing distracts you from your work. But when I have a vacation, I get right out of here.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  76. @AP

    Thanks for the report too!

    It seems that the president will most likely be either Tymoshenko or Anatoly Hrytsenko. Both seem to be anti-Western pro-Western reformers.

    In this case, where do you see the situation with Russia going?

    My personal guess is that Russia-Ukraine relations will start to resemble Russia-Georgia relations, with resumptions of direct flights, unblocking of Russian internet, and normalization of civilian people-to-people relations and business ties. Average Ukrainians would still hate Putin and the Russian state, but will have no qualms about visiting Moscow for business or tourism.

    Military ties still won’t be restored with an arms embargo in place, they won’t join NATO but will hold joint exercises with NATO states, and Donbass will be some economically extremely depressed emptying frozen conflict zone. Growth in the West will start spreading as far east as Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk. China will become the largest investor in Ukraine, and institutions, the amount of EU integration, and the economy will be upgraded to Serbia levels (and similar levels in terms of China ties)

    This is just my prediction, but you’ll probably know more than I do.

    • Replies: @AP
  77. Sean says:

    Are any of the original rebel militia leaders still alive?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  78. @AnonFromTN

    This is why its my favorite city in America. But I love country music.

    Unlike the city I’m in also in the same region, white culture seem to dominate Nashville much more, more so than even the demographics suggest. It seems to be around 2/3 country and 1/3 white hipster when I was there. The girls are super hot for US standards too, but no match to Russia obviously.

    The first thing I noticed was how thick the southern accents are compared to where I am, which is almost nonexistant even though I’m deeper in the South, and how people are much nicer and more polite. Also, there’s a big presence of southern old money in the city, much more so than where I am. Lots of people, even white millennial hipster Uber drivers can be very chatty and have thick southern accents.

    The city where I’m in now already feels like a post-white majority cesspool of crime, vagrancy, atomization, all kinds of degeneracy, hardcore neoliberalism.txt, and rudeness, with blacks dominating culture and politics here.

    However, Broadway sucks. Way too many tourists and too big of a white trash vibe. Midtown and the Gulch on the other hand were fabulous. Some of the bars on Demonbreum and Division have much better live country music than the out of tune stuff on Broadway. Line at Hattie B’s is too long though, but don’t really care about spicy chicken.

    Hillsboro Village is neoliberalism.txt central. Avoid, but does have a LOT of cute girls. Fido’s doesn’t even serve sweet tea!! Didn’t visit other parts of Nashville.

  79. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    It seems that the president will most likely be either Tymoshenko or Anatoly Hrytsenko. Both seem to be anti-Western pro-Western reformers.

    You meant anti-Russian. Correct.

    Hrytsenko is more anti-Russian than Tymoshenko. He is a military man in the Soviet 1980s who studied at the language school at the US defense department and also at the US war college in the 1990s before returning to Ukraine and serving in Yushchenko’s government. His thing is that he is not an oligarch.

    My personal guess is that Russia-Ukraine relations will start to resemble Russia-Georgia relations, with resumptions of direct flights, unblocking of Russian internet, and normalization of civilian people-to-people relations and business ties. Average Ukrainians would still hate Putin and the Russian state, but will have no qualms about visiting Moscow for business or tourism.

    Military ties still won’t be restored with an arms embargo in place, they won’t join NATO but will hold joint exercises with NATO states, and Donbass will be some economically extremely depressed emptying frozen conflict zone. Growth in the West will start spreading as far east as Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk. China will become the largest investor in Ukraine, and institutions, the amount of EU integration, and the economy will be upgraded to Serbia levels (and similar levels in terms of China ties)

    If the war ends completely somehow, this is the most likely course; good prediction. It’s a big if, however.

  80. @Anatoly Karlin

    Above all else, the EU is aeace project. It wants stability on its borders. The EU 15 took the Eastern Europeans in for no economic benefit. It is the mission of the EU to create peace. Opportunities to engage with Russia are key to this. The instabilities are on Russia and Turkish borders.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
    , @iffen
  81. @Philip Owen

    The EU isn’t a peace project, but a project to expand neoliberalism.txt as much as possible. While the end goal is not to keep Russia down as some Russian nationalists might claim, but the end goal is to have Russian become fully a core member of neoliberalism.txt.

    In fact, if Russia simply caved in to the EU back in 2000 or so, including straight up joining it in 2004, its demographics will only be slightly worse than today, with Moscow being closer to 75% white. Politically of course, Russia will be gayer than now with much more rights, with the likes of Navalny and Nemtsov running the show.

    Moscow and St. Petersburg would’ve been overrun with British stag parties, American sorority girls, and Italian sex tourists alongside Chinese group tours, but as a whole, Moscow and St. Petersburg won’t be too different from now, except the presence of guys kissing in public on Tverskaya, more girls will have disgusting haircuts and tattoos, and much more English will be heard and seen. I expect wealth and level of development in these 2 cities to be the same in the case of Russia caving in to neoliberalism.txt.

    Millionki gorods might be somewhat better than now due to EU investment on top of oil money, but at the cost of culture. St. Petersburg would’ve likely been the tech hub of all of Eastern Europe, and have the feel and economy of a bigger version of current Budapest. Moscow would essentially be a megacity and more touristy version of Warsaw, and be the financial capital of Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad and Kazan might be starting to get discovered by European tourists by now. Sochi would be a popular party beach for young Europeans.

    Russia as a whole will be like today’s Poland but rougher around the edges, with level of development around say, today’s Lithuania. And of course, there would be millions of Russians working menial jobs all over Western Europe, and Vnukovo and Pulkovo would be big battlegrounds for a price war between Ryanair and Wizzair.

    This is assuming Russia joined the EU in 2004.

  82. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Swedish Family

    Fake news.

    Contrary to Gregory, Russia sought OSCE and EU connected folks to monitor the referendum at issue. They officially refused to take part on the basis that Crimea is Ukrainian territory and (in conjunction to that position), the Kiev regime (which replaced Ukraine’s democratically elected president), didn’t approve of the referendum. It’s reasonable to assert that the Kiev regime didn’t want to sanction the obvious – having to do with the majority pro-Russian consensus in Crimea. Meantime, there were non-establishment Western observers, who observed that election and declared it as being within norms.

    Since that vote, there has been independent polling (some of it Western) which jive with the referendum’s outcome. JRL recently ran Andreas Umland’s spin along the lines of what you present. Upon further review, it’s not convincing at all. JRL also ran an arrogantly ignorant and hypocritical article from Doug Bandow, calling for another referendum in Crimea. Never mind the matters of Kosovo and northern Cyprus which (contrary to Michael McFaul) are relevant.

  83. @AP

    Why do you think Western Ukraine has grown and developed the most the last few years?

    Has Eastern Ukraine outside Donbass also had economic growth?

    Is Eastern Ukraine experiencing brain drain, and is Western Ukraine experiencing brain gain?

    Has corruption decreased in Ukraine and/or Donbass? Corruption both small scale and large scale.

    Is there an obvious replacement for Poroshenko?

    Do you think Ukraine can assimilate it’s large Russian minority?

  84. Sean says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    His full set of teeth and non-inflammable breath made him invulnerable to thermobaric detonation.

  85. @Swedish Family

    Fake:

    The one exception to this pattern, an estimate of 50%-60%, was produced by the Russian President’s Human Rights Council. However, on closer examination, it was not any sort of official figure, as presented by Forbes blogger Paul Roderick Gregory – a professional anti-Russian hack who later claimed 2,000 Russian soldiers died in Donbass on the basis of some lurid claims from a completely unknown Russian “business news” website – but the mere personal opinion of a single member of the Council, Yevgeny Bobrov, who based his assessment on conversations with a couple dozen unnamed “activists.”

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  86. AP says:

    Why do you think Western Ukraine has grown and developed the most the last few years?

    Close to EU border, so easy to build auto parts plants that employ uneducated people in small towns, educated population in Lviv (it produced electronics in Soviet times) so ideal for IT development to take off there.

    Has Eastern Ukraine outside Donbass also had economic growth

    A little, but it is still well behind 2013.

    Is Eastern Ukraine experiencing brain drain, and is Western Ukraine experiencing brain gain?

    Some tech companies have moved operation from Kharkiv to Kiev or Lviv (IIRC Siemens did so). There is brain drain everywhere, but Ukrainian schools churn out programmers and such, enough to compensate for those leaving, so there is growth in high-tech employment and industry.

    Has corruption decreased in Ukraine and/or Donbass? Corruption both small scale and large scale.

    Corruption has not decreased and may have gotten marginally worse (IIRC, slight drop in bribing cops but increase in bribing doctors), though it is of a somewhat different nature. In Yanukovich-era Kiev there as a sense that Donetsk thugs were shaking everyone down and grabbing businesses, this has declined.

    Is there an obvious replacement for Poroshenko?

    Tymoshenko has had governing experience. Ukraine’s best economic performance after independence was when she was PM, until the 2008 global crash when Ukraine crashed too.

    Do you think Ukraine can assimilate it’s large Russian minority

    With Donbas and Crimea gone the Russian minority is a lot smaller. They have mostly assimilated in places where they are not numerous (i.e, Lviv – large Russian exodus in early 90s, intermarriage and assimilation of those left behind). I’ve met half-Russian and quarter-Russian Ukrainian nationalists in Kiev.

  87. @Anatoly Karlin

    Fake: [...]

    Thanks a lot for this. I expected more from a respected scholar like Sakwa, but at least he doesn’t actively disinform.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  88. Natalia Poklonskaya was at the funeral, the only high ranking Russian official to go.

    My admiration for this woman continues to grow.
    She should be installed as a Goddess-Empress.

  89. @DreadIlk

    Hack hates Russians and wishes ill upon them. He’s not seriously considering what’s just or practical in that region. Don’t bother.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  90. @El Dato

    Presumably the US Army manual now includes instructions on

    (1)How to Lower Standards So Dimwitted Africans, Mexicans, and Ill-Educated Whites Can Qualify,

    (2) How to Maintain Respect for Female and Transgender Soldiers in Combat,

    (3) How to Remove Tattoes So That Unassimilated, Disloyal Latino Gang Members Can Join; and

    https://www.thebalancecareers.com/gang-activity-in-the-u-s-military-3354199

    (4) How to Engage an Enemy Who Lacks an Air Force, a Navy, Nuclear Weapons, or Electronic Guidance and Targeting Technologies.

    These will all be very, very useful in fighting an enemy like Russia, I’m sure.

  91. @AP

    The population of Ukraine continues to decline by more than 200,000 people every single year, even apart from the Crimeans re-joining Russia, with no end in sight. On the contrary, as Ukraine has fewer women of childbearing age every year, the decline will inevitably accelerate absent drastic improvement in fertility rate. Easy to see the decline hitting 250,000 per year or more, soon.

    The population is down to 43 million in most Western sources (seemingly including Crimea), with the actual population probably more like 38-40 million.

    At negative 250,000 per year, Ukraine would lose a million people every four years. This doesn’t account for further flight from Ukraine to other countries, such as the USA, Canada, Poland, Germany, and yes Russia.

    There will soon be very few Ukrainians in Ukraine (and, sadly, in the world), nationalist or otherwise, anti-Russian or otherwise. Whoever will take control of that territory within the next forty years, it probably won’t be Ukrainians. Could be Turks, as they, unlike demoralized and shortsighted Ukrainians and Russians, still have children.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  92. @Spisarevski

    I am not trying to diminish her, but the head of Crimean administration was there, too. He outranks Poklonskaya as Russian official.

  93. @RadicalCenter

    Hack is a Ukie. Ukrainians would be ashamed to acknowledge that he is one of them.

  94. @RadicalCenter

    Poland, Hungary, Romania, and Russia would like to take parts of that God-forsaken territory, but nobody wants to deal with its fauna.

    • Replies: @LatW
    , @RadicalCenter
  95. AP says:

    Zakharchenko wanted the UK to be conquered, so maybe the Brits were behind the assassination:

    https://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/418061/zakharchenko_blames_russias_plight_on_anglosaxons_says_britain_must_be_conquered_video_in_russian

    (I was being facetious, most likely Ukrainian special forces eliminated this Ukrainian citizen leading an armed insurrection against the Ukrainian state on Ukrainian-recognized soil)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @reiner Tor
  96. @AP

    Terrorist state commits acts of terror. That’s a given, the rest is chaff.

    • Replies: @AP
  97. AP says:
    @RadicalCenter

    There will soon be very few Ukrainians in Ukraine (and, sadly, in the world), nationalist or otherwise, anti-Russian or otherwise. Whoever will take control of that territory within the next forty years, it probably won’t be Ukrainians.

    Turkey’s TFR is below replacement level and skewed in favor of its Kurds.

    Everyone’s population in Europe is shrinking, but unlike most, Ukraine is about 98% Slavic. So no external wave of settlers will come, and Ukraine doesn’t have to worry about internal replacement either.

    Ukraine had about 24 million people in 1900. It was not an unpopulated wasteland with such a figure.

  98. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    How about Russian elimination of Chechens? Also “terrorist state committing acts of terror?”

    Russia even eliminated some Chechen in Dubai, well outside Russian territory.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  99. @AP

    They should have chosen a method which spares innocent children.

    • Replies: @AP
  100. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Were children killed in the blast?

    One would think this would be frequently mentioned, but even this Russian source doesn’t say so:

    https://sputniknews.com/europe/201808311067652471-Eleven-People-Killed-Zakharchenko-Assassination-Explosion/

    RT says that the other dead were bodyguards:

    https://www.rt.com/news/437357-head-donbass-republic-killed/

    Looks like a fairly clean hit.

    Russia killed a Ukrainian special forces officer in Kiev last year.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  101. @AP

    II read somewhere that a child died. It might be untrue. Let’s hope so.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  102. @Swedish Family

    He is a very good scholar and his Ukraine book is a very good book. However, one can’t fact check everything.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    , @Kimppis
  103. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    It looks like in the area of special forces the Ukrainians have kept up and are rather effective.

    I understand why Russian nationalists would be angry because Zakharchenko was one of their own. But objectively – he was a Ukrainian citizen, on Ukrainian soil, leading an armed deadly insurrection against the Ukrainian state. The state was within it rights to liquidate him, at least no less so than Russia was in liquidating its Chechen rebels.

  104. @AP

    It’s a bit muddier than that. After all, there’s an internationally mediated and guaranteed cease fire agreement, and this wasn’t even a proper military operation. Certainly, if done by, say, Hezbollah against some Israelis, it’d be considered an act of terrorism by both the US and Israel.

    But I don’t think it’s such a big deal, unless there were innocent victims.

    • Replies: @AP
  105. @AP

    Special Forces would seem to be one of the easier things to get right. You don’t particularly need much money for it, just a lot of training and some reasonable level of IQ and discipline.

    The people insisting Putler/organized crime was responsible don’t seem to have a high opinion of Ukrainians!

  106. @reiner Tor

    Russian reports have generally reported 5 people died besides Zakharchenko, including a child: https://www.fontanka.ru/2018/08/31/122/

    Also – and this does seem confirmed – the head of a Donbass youth association, Natalia Volkova, is reported as severely injured: https://www.facebook.com/gamaris.gamaris.16/posts/331422034334083

    Вчера в Донецке, во время теракта, после которого погиб глава ДНР Александр Захарченко, была тяжело ранена руководитель молодежной платформы «Оплот Донбасса» Наталья Волкова. Жива, но очень тяжелая. 60% ожогов тела. В апреле ей исполнилось 20 лет.

    This is all the more plausible in the context of the Ukrainians being competent enough to pull off such an operation, but not competent enough to do it smoothly.

    You might rejoinder that Russia would make hay out of this. But why? This would lead to public pressure to punish Ukraine – which the kremlins have no intention of doing. Hence they have a mutual interest with Poroshenko in avoiding portraying it as a sloppy terrorist attack, as opposed to finely executed wetwork.

    • Replies: @AP
  107. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Russian reports have generally reported 5 people died besides Zakharchenko, including a child: https://www.fontanka.ru/2018/08/31/122/

    But that article links to another one with preliminary info that Zakharchenko died in hospital, which was later shown to be false. So this may be a rumor.

    Also – and this does seem confirmed – the head of a Donbass youth association, Natalia Volkova, is reported as severely injured

    The head of “Oplot Donbas” is 20, so youthful but not a child.

  108. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Certainly, if done by, say, Hezbollah against some Israelis, it’d be considered an act of terrorism by both the US and Israel.

    That’s because it is Hezbollah, a non-state actor. When the US or Russia or Israel do these things they are not considered to be terrorism.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  109. @AP

    With Donbas and Crimea gone the Russian minority is a lot smaller. They have mostly assimilated in places where they are not numerous (i.e, Lviv – large Russian exodus in early 90s, intermarriage and assimilation of those left behind). I’ve met half-Russian and quarter-Russian Ukrainian nationalists in Kiev.

    A fellow on YouTube who has visited Lviv many times since 2009 says that Russian is now more accepted in Lviv than before since (1) thanks to immigration from the east, there are now more Russian speakers than in 2009, and (2) speaking Russian is no longer seen as anti-Ukrainian.

    [from 1.32]

    • Replies: @AP
  110. @Spisarevski

    My admiration for this woman continues to grow.
    She should be installed as a Goddess-Empress.

    She is a dear, isn’t she. Although I kind of liked Matilda.

  111. @Anatoly Karlin

    Glad to hear. Will look up his books on Russia next!

  112. Kimppis says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    But isn’t that info obviously fake though? I mean, if he actually knew much about Crimea (or, for that matter, about Russia and its elections).

  113. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    Probably right. I visited as a “Russian-speaker” in the mid 2000s (my wife speaks Russian, my family don’t speak English, so we spoke mostly Russian when going around town) and got a lot of dirty looks. This doesn’t happen now.

    I would add a third factor – tourism. There is more Russian heard now than before not because more people are visiting from Russia, but more people from Kiev or Dnipro who can no longer go to places like Prague for a long weekend due to the hryvnia devaluation are using Lviv as a substitute.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  114. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Sure, and the USA and Israel are also called terrorists in certain opinion pieces.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  115. LatW says:
    @Sean

    US training in how to be less conspicuous on the battlefield has made Ukrainian forces the best in the world at modern field-craft

    Yes, drones are a big problem, but it’s actually the other way around, if you look at the bigger picture – the US has no experience or knowledge on how to fight the kind of war that Ukraine has been fighting. And it is in fact NATO that needs Ukraine’s experience. Before any US handbooks there was Slovyansk and General Zabrodskiy was in fact praised by the Potomac Foundation expert Phillip Karber for his unique performance during that raid. The US military had a lot of questions for the General.

    US learning from Ukraine:

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/04/moscow-pentagon-us-secret-study-213811

    https://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/08/02/electronic-warfare-what-us-army-can-learn-from-ukraine/

    We should be very grateful – the Ukrainian soldier is paying the ultimate price and we get the information.

    And, btw, the US is not the only country training with Ukraine. During the Independence Day parade a few days back, the Polish&Lithuanian group was actually bigger than the American one.

    Ukraine is not such a small country and with Western backing a deliberate stalemate to bleed Russia is their best bet for eventually getting a withdrawal from Donbass, probably by Putin’s successor. Ukraine can be a puppet that pulls its own strings.

    Yea, but then it’s not really a puppet, is it. And, no, it’s not a small country at all, especially by European standards. Regarding the regaining of the territories, there are probably three scenarios: 1) what you mention (creeping – they just regained a small settlement, and they are very close to Gorlyvka, some of them are also in the rear), 2) Medvechuk’s recipe – negotiation with the rebels (which the current administration won’t do, most states wouldn’t and would be very unpopular), 3) the nationalist proposal – draw hard on internal resources, mobilize internally, build up the army (much more so than now – Israel style), wait for a moment when Russia is experiencing a weak moment (transition of power, crisis in the Caucasus, or something like that, just like Russia took advantage of a good moment in 2014), then proceed according to the Croatian scenario (yes, extremely cruel). The nationalists don’t believe it makes sense to rely on a diplomatic solution or wait for the sanctions “to kick in”. Another hypothetical scenario – annexation of Belarus, and attack on Ukraine from both the east and the north.

    • Replies: @Sean
  116. LatW says:
    @Singh

    May he find Svarog||

    Veles. The dead travel to the land of Veles, Svarog is the god of sunlight. :)

    But the dude must have been a Pravoslav or secular.

    If it really was the Ukes that did it, it’s quite impressive actually, given that they probably had to recruit someone very close to him or someone in the Donbas criminal scene. And given that there were massive raids against the pro-Ukrainian population right after this happened, with Donbas police literally raiding people’s apartments, it might be that it really was the Ukes. Wow.

  117. LatW says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Poland, Hungary, Romania, and Russia would like to take parts of that God-forsaken territory, but nobody wants to deal with its fauna.

    LOL. Hey, some of that “fauna”…. is quite amazing.

    Come on, don’t be silly, other than Russia, nobody is vying for Ukrainian territory. All of the countries you mention are themselves going through population aging and decrease, yes, some of the small neighbors are now experiencing anxiety due to Ukraine having become more assertive and nationalistic (yes, it’s unpleasant, frankly, like hyenas pestering an injured lion, but unfortunately understandable from the human nature point of view). But it’s a very big question if they can go any further than passportization (which is illegal in Ukraine, btw). You do realize that annexing and then administrating a territory is a big endeavor. Btw, when you look at how things are going on the ground, the positive human interactions between Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine are actually on the rise and might be reaching a new qualitative level.

    p.s. Я сподіваюсь, що з Вашої мамою все добре. Шкода що все так сталося.

  118. Sean says:
    @LatW

    I’m sure the Ukrainian leadership will feel compelled to try and win back territory, the people will demand it. The West is mindful of what happened with Georgia, and I think Ukraine is being improved defensively but kept short of offensive heavy weaponry. But Ukraine will try.

    • Replies: @LatW
  119. LatW says:
    @AquariusAnon

    4. Any vestiges of sovokism should be removed.

    Sovokism is the ideological glue that binds this population together (along with the “Russian world”). They will cling to it. They took up arms exactly in order to defend these things – remember that they are not fighting against “Ukraine” per se, but against the “fascists”, “fascists” mainly being those who attacked the Soviet Union (and their progeny or ideological heirs, the way they see it, the “fascist hunta” – the Russians use the word “fashisti”, not so much “nazisti”) and to maintain Sovok traditions, such as the May 9 celebration, the Soviet monuments, praise for miners and “working” class in general. I watch their programs occasionally and they still use phrases such as “трудовой подвиг ” – “heroic deed” (wrt, to largely physical and infrastructure related labor), with a completely straight face, this was said in connection with the factories they have managed to re-open in Donetsk (they are trying to recover, recently built a tram, trying to improve agriculture). They will stand and fall for this, probably at least for another generation. It’s a heavy transition from industrial to post-industrial (global competition, old ideals of masculinity, etc). Ideally, it would be best to not touch them.

  120. LatW says:
    @Sean

    Ukraine could build its own weapons.

    But yea, Ukraine is not Chechnya, it is not Abkhazia.

  121. @LatW

    Yeah, I have the impression that LDNR is more of a Sovok project (Donetsk People’s Republic, and Donetsk People’s Soviet, really?) than a Russian nationalist project. On the other hand, the svidomists are using boneheaded completely Sovok tactics too, such as Ministry of Propaganda, banning flights with Russia and RuNet, and doing nothing whatsoever to at least improve economic competence and EU integration to Serbian levels, which is not hard, as Serbian institutions are still not at EU levels and its still a poor country.

    Verdict: Ukraine as a whole is a Sovok cesspool, whether its the Donetsk clique or the Galician clique.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @LatW
  122. @LatW

    Complete nonsense. The Russian Spring was a Russian nationalist project to deconstruct sovok borders. I mean, who do you think Strelkov is?

    The project was later hijacked by sovokism, such as the abandonment of the Novorossiya concept, and the replacement of the Russian Spring with the Crimean Spring. But it was not initiated by sovoks, who are fundamentally passive people.

    It is interesting but telling that you equate sovokism with Russian national consciousness. Truly, Latvian mendacity knows no bounds.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @LatW
  123. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The Russian Spring was a Russian nationalist project to deconstruct sovok borders. I mean, who do you think Strelkov is?

    Correct, it did indeed start this way, but the population of this territory is fundamentally a Sovok one. So inevitably this is what a state based on this territory devolves into, regardless of Strelkov’s adventures. So most of what LatW stated is correct.

  124. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Verdict: Ukraine as a whole is a Sovok cesspool, whether its the Donetsk clique or the Galician clique.

    Nonsense.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  125. @AP

    Only Sovoks can come up with smart ideas like straight up censorship, ban direct flights, and a Ministry of Propaganda.

    Neoliberalism.txt is just “Sovokism with Western hipster characteristics”. Ukies are also Sovoks with their ideological unhinged crusade against Russia. Only Sovoks of any race or ideology even have the ability to have unhinged hatred towards anything based on their ideology alone. And Eastern European neoliberals are all Sovoks, no matter how “Westernized” and “millennial” they are, given how unhinged they tend to be, especially how Anatoly Karlin described the shitty service that young hipster Romanian girls give in Bucharest hipster cafes.

    P.S. the fact that Ukraine still hasn’t reached Serbian levels/quality of institutions and development = Massive Galician Sovok epic fail.

    • Replies: @AP
  126. LatW says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I mean, who do you think Strelkov is?

    These days? A non-charismatic, but brutally honest podcast personality. :)

    Chillax. :) I didn’t say that there was no Russian world component, there is, of course (sorry it was in parentheses). It’s a mixture of the “Russian world”, Sovok and their own, local identity. But to deny that a part of their motivation had to do with their willingness to keep the old-school traditions, is silly – they oppose “decommunization” (“фашизм не пройдет”, etc), the Victory cult is sacred, there is disagreement about historical narratives, etc. It is what it is, it’s just a part of their identity that may go away with time, but you gotta own it. This was more in response to the naive guy who suggested that Sovok traditions should be erased immediately – most of the Donetsk Republic will oppose that!

  127. LatW says:
    @AquariusAnon

    the Galician clique

    There is no such thing as a “Galician clique”. If you’re talking about the Svoboda crowd or the various paramilitary and folkish orgs in Western Ukraine, then, yes, they exist as a demographic, but they do not dominate the elite and they didn’t play a decisive role in the formation of the current configuration of forces (essentially the border formed by the current “line of fire”). The decisive role there was played by largely Russophone Ukrainian patriots from the East.

    The elite is not Galician, by far. The above mentioned Svoboda party is now marginal. The Galicians are very anti-Soviet, quite religious, their culture is very Central European. They do not dominate the political landscape. The elite and the media have what I would call “embattled” nationalism when various groups stand together to form a political nation in the face of danger. The media is filled with media personalities that are bilingual, but often largely Russophone, who are very patriotic. There are even a few Russophone Atlanticists in Kyiv. There is the pro-Russian opposition, too. The dichotomy you use simply does not exist.

    Only Sovoks can come up with smart ideas like straight up censorship, ban direct flights, and a Ministry of Propaganda.

    Actually, no, many nation states and big countries do it, too. Israel, Bush after 9/11. There’s a war going on. The nationalists want even more – severing of diplomatic relations, closing down of all Russian media, closing Sberbank, etc.

    Frankly, Ukraine doesn’t owe it to anybody to introduce EU or any other “Western” standards. Maybe wouldn’t hurt if done the right way and with Ukraine’s interests in mind, but right now Ukraine must focus on itself and draw on all potential internal resources it can muster. Ukraine doesn’t have to impress anybody. Men are dying, it’s not a beauty contest about who is “more civilized”, progressive or “European”.

    Besides, there is probably more freedom on the individual level in Ukraine, than there is in the Western world.

  128. @AP

    Having been in both cities more than once, I must say that Lvov (Lviv in Ukrainian; Lwow in Polish) is a very poor substitute for Prague. I pity those who maybe use it as such.

    • Replies: @AP
  129. @LatW

    Or yea, the people murdered in Odessa and Mariupol in 2014 were remarkably free. So was Oles Buzina, murdered in broad daylight in Kiev. Nobody was punished for any of these crimes. Freedom from responsibility, yes. Freedom from common sense, yes. But that’s about it in terms of freedom in Ukraine.

  130. @AP

    The situation in Chechnia and Donbas are very different in the sense that Chechnia is recognized as federal republic in the RF, more or less as native republic to the Chechen nation, where their native language is legally recognized as equal to Russian.

    When Ukraine grants those equal rights to Russians or so called Russian speakers, than you could equate the actions of Ukraine and Russia.

    But of course, Ukrainian nationalists will not do that because this would negate the idea of monoethnic and monolingual Ukrainian nation or statehood. That, by definition, is called fascism.

    People are not dumb, people can feel the difference and that is why Ukrainian case has so little traction and support worldwide.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @AP
  131. @Simpleguest

    Russia paid schoolteachers in Chechnya, and sent money to pensioners there. Ukraine stopped doing this, which is not a very good policy if they still wanted to reintegrate Donbas. Of course, Donbas is much larger relative to Ukraine, so it might be more difficult for Ukraine to keep doing this. Mind you, pensions are still being paid, they just force Donbas pensioners to travel to government-controlled territory every month to receive the money. That’s dumb: they don’t save much money, they only make life hell for those pensioners there.

    Ukrainian nationalists will not do that because this would negate the idea of monoethnic and monolingual Ukrainian nation or statehood. That, by definition, is called fascism.

    No, that’s not fascism.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Simpleguest
  132. Sean says:

    Alexander Kazakov says those who killed Givi (bazooka-ed in his office ) and Motorolla (blown to bits by an hidden IED in his apartment block elevator ) are behind the murder of Zakharchenko, who was killed by (stop me if you have heard this before) an IED hidden in a chandelier as he walked into the restaurant owned by his security chief. Why is it so often the head of security who betrays an organisation? It’s like how the music teacher is always the one found to have seduced their young pupils.

  133. AP says:
    @Simpleguest

    The situation in Chechnia and Donbas are very different in the sense that Chechnia is recognized as federal republic in the RF, more or less as native republic to the Chechen nation, where their native language is legally recognized as equal to Russian.

    When Ukraine grants those equal rights to Russians or so called Russian speakers, than you could equate the actions of Ukraine and Russia.

    Trivial distinctions. Wiping out armed rebels who kill government soldiers becomes acceptable once the rebel region has autonomy but not before?

    People are not dumb, people can feel the difference and that is why Ukrainian case has so little traction and support worldwide

    And has as much or as little support worldwide as does Russia.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  134. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Having been in both cities more than once, I must say that Lvov (Lviv in Ukrainian; Lwow in Polish) is a very poor substitute for Prague.

    You haven’t been to Lviv in the last 8 years or so and most of what you write about Ukraine is nonsense. You compare it to Somalia, for example.

    Lviv’s center is a UNESCO heritage site. The city is about 1/3 the size of Prague but it is architecturally beautiful and the cafes and restaurants, though much cheaper, are not worse.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  135. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Only Sovoks can come up with smart ideas like straight up censorship, ban direct flights, and a Ministry of Propaganda.

    “Only Sovoks?” Really? No one else did these things? I has no idea that the USA has been a Sovok state since they banned flights to Cuba.

    Only Sovoks of any race or ideology even have the ability to have unhinged hatred towards anything based on their ideology alone.

    Think about what you wrote for a minute.

    the fact that Ukraine still hasn’t reached Serbian levels/quality of institutions and development

    Serbia was never part of the USSR. Yugoslavia was much more developed. And until 2014 Ukraine was mostly ruled by Southeasterners (the 5 year Yushchenko reprieve coincided with Ukraine’s best economic performance post 1991).

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  136. Gerard2 says:
    @LatW

    The decisive role there was played by largely Russophone Ukrainian patriots from the East.

    What “decisive” role you idiot? They can’t even make incremental gains on territory ,despite the whole weight of the western world behind them you cretin.
    Decisive role on the suicide competition is it?

    They aren’t patriots but nutjobs/Kolomoiskyemployees/other oligarch employees.
    If it wasn’t for IMF loans or the fact that the western world, on US orders would refuse to recognise and do trade with any Russia affiliated new state ….then these “patriots” wouldn’t exist at all en masse

    There is no such thing as a “Galician clique”.

    like wave-particle duality there is nationalist (well, in Ukrop’s case fake nation) nationalist-liberast duality. A big part of the pseudo ‘democratic” protest movement in Kiev since the time of Kuchma has been from Galicia,often doing fuckall except nothing useful and create trouble…a big part of the Kiev front likewise..all advancing pseudo-democracy as a front for their paid or brainwashed insidious promoting of the Banderatard idea of Ukraine.

    Not to mention Galician clique as a big political contributor and a huge componant of the SBU, policing and military

    the Soros/US AID/Banderatard Nazi scumbag escapist lobby in US/Canada is effectively one Galician clique…that have controlled elites in Galicia,in Kiev and throughout the country into promoting the Banderite idiot fake history, “culture” and idea of Ukraine…a necessary measure for these pricks on a population whose majority think and speak Russian, use Russian internet, watch Russian tv, films, are related to Russians,same history, same culture, didn’t want the Union to collapse, work in Russia and so on

    [MORE]

    Frankly, Ukraine doesn’t owe it to anybody to introduce EU or any other “Western” standards

    They literally do you dumb POS……..a parasite nation indulging in a war of terror that would be impossible without IMF loans and oligarch parasites who made their fortune entirely because of Russia

    severing of diplomatic relations, closing down of all Russian media, closing Sberbank,

    All of which have been implemented to severe degrees….oddly enough these Soros nationalists don’t seem to have any aversion to Russian gas being transited through their territory….like the parasites they are…..or to not have the highest amount of it’s lamentable FDI …still coming from Russia

    The media is filled with media personalities that are bilingual, but often largely Russophone,

    …correct

    There are even a few Russophone Atlanticists in Kyiv

    ..true even that liberast traitor prick Illianarov is a regular in Ukrop tv

    There is the pro-Russian opposition, too

    ..haha! Deeply controlled you idiot..not even in the same league of the numerous pro-Kiev freaks that are allowed on Russian tv/radio every day.

  137. If you think that the propagandists of the Empire are simply deluded people, think again. They know when their narrative is demonstrably false, so they turn to the last resort of liars – censorship. That’s what Youtube did with videos of Zakharchenko funeral in Donetsk first:

    http://www.stalkerzone.org/youtube-blocked-live-video-broadcasts-of-the-funeral-of-aleksandr-zakharchenko-in-donetsk/

    However, a serious backlash scares that cowardly scum, so now you can watch videos of Zakharchenko funeral in Donetsk, e.g., here:

    Considering that ~200,000 people turned up in Donetsk for the funeral of the leader of Donetsk People’s Republic Zakharchenko, recently murdered by terrorist jackals, Ukie and imperial narrative about “Russian occupation” sounds as false as it really is.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  138. @AP

    As Christ aptly said “You will know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:16-20).

  139. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    [MORE]

    You compare it to Somalia, for example

    ….barely top 10 wage region in Ukraine, ugly suburbs, mass exodus, stinking of shit streets with less than punctual rubbish collection…..yep Somalia, or at least “Africa of Europe” comments are perfectly suitable you sick di*khead.

    You haven’t been to Lviv in the last 8 years or so and most of what you write about Ukraine is nonsense.

    hahaha! You’v never been to Lvov you fantasist POS freak, , @AnonfromTN evidently has and writes as someone who has huge knowledge of it and the country as a whole…..not copy and pasting random crap from Wikipedia 24/7 or from some nutjob Canadian, coward Banderatard blog.

    The city is about 1/3 the size of Prague but it is architecturally beautiful and the cafes and restaurants, though much cheaper, are not worse.

    There isn’t a single person on the planet who thinks that Lvov is at the same level or in any way comparable to Prague, you attention-whore cunt m*ron dipshit.

    Prague is a beautiful, livable city that plenty of Ukrainians dream of living it…Lvov is far from it in desireabllity…and hilariously and embarrassingly missed out on on a near billion dollar windfall because all football teams refused to stay there for Euro 2012 and fans avoided it like the plague (whereas Nizhny Novgorod, Vologograd, kazan obviously and other cities in Russia made hugely positive impressions)…seeing as Russians are the only serious foreign tourists who have gone to Lvov……..this is a colossal embarrassment.

    Pretty much every city in the middle east is UNESCO or potential UNESCO city you idiot…..Lvov’s historic centre isn’t even a fraction of the size of Saint Petersburg’ and is a miniscule part of the whole city you retard….adn that’s before we even get into metropolitan area.

    Donetsk by the way had the pleasure of hosting France in Euro 2012 and before the Nazi scum destroyed it..had an airport with far significantly more passenger or cargo traffic going through it then ghost-town Lvov

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @AnonFromTN
  140. @reiner Tor

    Ukie Nazis ignored a well-known fact that the army shoots its own people only once. After that it shoot foreign people.

  141. @AP

    And has as much or as little support worldwide as does Russia.

    That’s only true if you limit the world to the “golden billion”. More than 6/7th of the world supports Russia against the Empire and its sidekicks, sometimes even to a silly degree. I remember when Western MSM were less Goebbelsian and the Guardian still had comments, how many people were vehemently against Georgia and praised Russia for giving the Empire a black eye, at least by proxy. When the Empire crashes (and it’s “when”, not “if”) there will be hell to pay. The Empire itself is geographically protected, but its lackeys will be smeared over the wall.

    • Replies: @AP
  142. Gerard2 says:
    @Gerard2

    yep, Saransk,Volgograd,Kaliningrad (which I didn’t think would do well, but instead turned out to be a great success) all were huge sucesses,Samara

    Incidentally, Kiev humongously flopped in hosting the biggest club competition match in the world

  143. @Gerard2

    I think you are wrong calling that “AP” personage names. Ukrainism (and its terminal stage, svidomism) is a mental disorder, incurable, like the rest of them. Say, a schizophrenic often appears to be perfectly normal, even intelligent, until you hit the point where his/her marbles are lost. You can have a delightful conversation with a schizophrenic, and then at some point the poor bastard asks you to help stop CIA watching him/her through electric wires. We are supposed to feel compassion for mentally ill, not be angry at them: they cannot help having their condition, and the psychiatrists cannot help those sufferers, either.

    • Replies: @AP
  144. @AP

    I thought you lived in New England: You should know how Sovok the US is nowadays with its hysteria against Russia, Trump, conservatives, white men, anything, on top of a visibly increasing police state. You’re in Ground Zero of American Sovokism.

    And they banned flights to Cuba because Cuba seized aka stolen, all American assets in Cuba in 1959. As far as I know, Russia hasn’t seized any Ukrainian assets in Russia yet.

    So yes, the US is becoming a Sovok state, especially the millennials with their cotton candy hair in leftist infested cities like Boston.

    While Yugoslavia was pretty much a first world country, Ukraine was the most prosperous republic in the USSR. On top of that, Serbia was bombed to bits Syria-style and isolated from the rest of the world for 10 years in a row by NATO, something Ukraine hasn’t experienced yet, and even after a war with 140,000 dead (not 10,000 like in Ukraine, and over 7 million instead of 35 million), Serbia STILL managed to be twice as rich as Ukraine, with twice as good institutions. Keep in mind this is a country with as of 2018, still bullet hole ridden buildings in the center of Belgrade.

    Verdict: Even if we assume they are not Sovoks, Ukrainians are probably the most incompetent and low IQ European ethnicity out there bar none. Only Gypsies and Albanians are worse, but they aren’t even white.

    P.S. I overheard a Ukie svidomist, some bald guy, on the streets in Shanghai explaining to his Chinese friend how he speaks “the Ukrainian language” and how Russia is invading Ukraine and denying the existence of Ukraine.

    Likewise, there has been Ukie svidomist models in Hong Kong protesting against Putin in Hong Kong with anti-Putin, anti-Russian signs written in Chinese. The Ukie parasite is indeed spreading far and wide, into the heart of the Far East. And on another note, localist activists in Hong Kong are also anti-Russia, having had several protests at the Russian Consulate in Hong Kong.

    Hong Kong millennials might be the only uniformly anti-Russia “nationality” in East Asia

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  145. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    That’s only true if you limit the world to the “golden billion”. More than 6/7th of the world supports Russia against the Empire and its sidekicks, sometimes even to a silly degree

    Partly but not completely true. While most of the developed world views Russia unfavorably, in the rest of the world it is more like 60/40 favorable:

    Russia is popular in sub-Saharan Africa, India, China and Vietnam, but not in Indonesia and most other Muslim countries. It enjoys only a small edge in Latin America.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Philip Owen
  146. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    I thought you lived in New England: You should know how Sovok the US is nowadays with its hysteria against Russia, Trump, conservatives, white men, anything, on top of a visibly increasing police state. You’re in Ground Zero of American Sovokism.

    LOL. Following ancient Puritan traditions is not “Sovok.”

    While Sovok is bad, not all bad is Sovok.

    Ukraine was the most prosperous republic in the USSR.

    Sovok myth. It was the poorest of the Slavic republics with a per capita GDP 1/3 of Russia’s in 1990.

    It also inherited a non-national elite, who took the opportunity to rob it.

    As I wrote elsewhere:

    Who was in charge of Ukraine in 1990? Local Communist nomenklatura. What was their nature? First of all they were people who were at best indifferent to the Ukrainian national idea or Ukrainian state – otherwise they would not have become who they were. Secondly, they were people who were not good enough to have careers in Moscow. Before my wife’s family moved into their flat in Moscow, it was occupied by some Soviet minister. He screwed up and was sent to Kiev.

    In 1990 these indifferent screw-ups got the opportunity to run Ukraine without any supervision.

    On top of that, Serbia was bombed to bits Syria-style and isolated from the rest of the world for 10 years in a row by NATO,

    Irrelevant. Germany and Japan were bombed far more, so what? Serbia had its own national elite in charge, not one imposed from Moscow, and was never a Soviet Republic. Its current state is the reflection of the abilities of the Serbian people.

    Only one Balkan people were in the USSR – Moldovans. Moldova is what Serbia would have been like, had it shared Ukraine’s fate as a part of the USSR.

    Ukrainians are probably the most incompetent and low IQ European ethnicity

    Balkans love talking about IQ, despite having the lowest in Europe and being on the level of American Latinos.

    Average IQs of Slavic countries, according to Richard Lynn:

    https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

    Poland 99
    Czech Republic 98
    Russia 97
    Belarus 97
    Ukraine 97
    Slovakia 96

    Here are Balkan average IQs:

    Bulgaria 93
    Macedonia 91
    Serbia 89

    African Americans: 85.

  147. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AquariusAnon

    While Yugoslavia was pretty much a first world country, Ukraine was the most prosperous republic in the USSR.

    How so on that last thought?

  148. @AP

    I’m not sure though how reliable those numbers are. The numbers for Romania (94) and Croatia (90) are not mentioned.

    So, Serbia, Croatia and Romania all have their issues, but I’d put Croatia closer to Hungary, and even Romania and Serbia might be closer than where they appear. Okay, maybe Romania is okay at 94, though recently they don’t seem to be significantly worse governed than Hungary, at least taking the last twenty years. I don’t think Serbs are closer to African Americans than to Hungarians.

    Except for Croats, who I like, I don’t really like these peoples. I certainly dislike Romania.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  149. @AP

    Greg Cochran mentioned iodine deficiency, which probably hits most of the Balkan. He thinks IQs could be significantly improved if iodine was added to milk and food given to children.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @AP
  150. Mikhail says: • Website
    @reiner Tor

    I take it that you’re not such a great fan of the Slovaks, while generally liking Poles. If wrong, pardon the presumptuous tone.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  151. @Mikhail

    True, though I think Slovak culture is very close to Hungarian culture. On a personal level, I think Slovaks are remarkably similar to Hungarians. But yes, in general I like Poles a lot.

  152. I guess the commenters noticed that Ukies never answer inconvenient questions. Example: my post #133 (listing clear examples demonstrating the criminal nature of current Kiev regime) was never answered by any of them, whereas they jump into debate about many other things. Apparently, when you like the lies, the truth hurts.

    • Replies: @AP
  153. @iffen

    Yes. Whatever.

    • Replies: @iffen
  154. @AP

    The results of any poll often tell more about who conducts it then about the reality. For example, before any election DNC and RNC polls in the US yield ridiculously incompatible results. Who funds Pew Research Center? That’s the key question. He, who pays the musicians, calls the tune.

    Besides, you did not present the data on the percentage of the people in the same countries who feel negative or positive about the US. Not to mention that the most important thing is the dynamics. A lot of people disapprove of Putin’s tactics of avoiding direct conflict with the Empire. When he successfully engages its vassals, warm feeling towards Russia spike, like in 2008 after the Georgian war, or in 2014 after Crimea.

    I know that in quite a few countries the US passport puts you in danger. One of my Canadian colleagues told me that the Americans he knows, when travelling out of the country, always pretend to be Canadians, to avoid being blamed for what the US government does. I would not hesitate to use the US passport in the EU, Israel, Japan, or South Korea, but I would think twice about Latin America (as Mexicans say, our country is too far from God and too close to the US), and I would never show it in any Arab country, or in Iran. I travelled with it in China a few years ago, but now maybe I’d prefer to use Russian passport.

    Anyway, my point was that the vassals will bear the brunt of anti-American feelings more than the US. While the US may be hated but is still feared, its vassals are simply despised (deservedly so).

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  155. @AnonFromTN

    I wonder, do you think that a majority of people in some small western oblast of Ukraine might vote to join Poland, Slovakia, or Hungary if given the chance?

    I remembered Zakarpattiya (sp?) being heavily Hungarian, but looked it up and found that it’s only about ten percent Hungarian.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AnonFromTN
  156. @reiner Tor

    “No, that’s not fascism.”

    Let’s not be too pedantic here.
    Fascism and nazism are hard to differentiate between, anyway.
    For many, myself included, they are synonyms.

    “Russia paid schoolteachers in Chechnya, and sent money to pensioners there. Ukraine stopped doing this, which is not a very good policy if they still wanted to reintegrate Donbas. Of course, Donbas is much larger relative to Ukraine, so it might be more difficult for Ukraine to keep doing this.”

    I am more inclined to differentiate between Russian legalistic approach to its minorities and that of Ukraine, specifically to its Russian minority, or shall we call them “russian speakers”.

    They are expected, no less, but to be so kind and assimilate and perish so that they do not spoil the fabric of the pure Ukrainian state and nation. Now that is fascism (or nazism if you will).

    I can understand the desire of Ukrainians to have, after many centuries, a nation state of their own, but history teaches us that fascism always, and very reliably, leads to self destruction.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Philip Owen
    , @reiner Tor
  157. AP says:
    @RadicalCenter

    LOL. He is the last person to ask for objective information about Ukraine.

  158. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    LOL. Gerard2′s comments make clear who has a mental disorder.

  159. AP says:
    @Simpleguest

    Fascism and nazism are hard to differentiate between, anyway.

    They are very easy to differentiate.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  160. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I guess the commenters noticed that Ukies never answer inconvenient questions. Example: my post #133 (listing clear examples demonstrating the criminal nature of current Kiev regime) was never answered by any of them

    Odessa “massacre” and Mariupol “massacre” fairytales have been addressed in past posts.

    Buzina murder was real.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  161. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Correct, I doubt there is a huge genetic component for low Balkan IQ.

  162. @AnonFromTN

    In the main coastal cities, people still think of the US positively. Many coastal upper middle class have either visited the US themselves as tourists, or have relatives and children studying and/or immigrating to the US. California, especially LA, is especially popular with that cohort I’d say. And Hollywood movies and hip hop music continues to be popular with Chinese millennials.

    I’d still use the Russian passport if its easier to get a visa. Keep in mind that Russia (note: Russian people, not the Russian state) isn’t really thought of that highly in China among the younger cohorts: Its seen as a country full of rowdy drunks who love fighting (guys) and hot models (girls) that’s poorer than China. The biggest “civilian” connection that upper middle class coastal Chinese have with Russia is Aeroflot, which is seen as that invincible fighter jet airline landing during blizzards and typhoons offering cheap connections to Western Europe.

  163. @AP

    Trust me, the “deep state” in America are related to, if not the exact, same people responsible of the Great Baltic Sovok Revolution of 1918 along with their German-educated Jewish-Japanese-LARPing-as-a-Russian leader.

    I’ll let y’all figure out who these (((people))) are. Its a no brainer they’d use the exact same tactics in a different country, modified for the characteristics and situation of their base country.

  164. @AP

    “Fascism and nazism are hard to differentiate between, anyway.”

    “They are very easy to differentiate.”

    You may be right.
    Post Maidan Ukraine resembles Nazi Germany much more than Fascist Italy.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AnonFromTN
  165. @RadicalCenter

    Trans-Carpathian region is ~10% Hungarian on average. So, this number is about as informative as an average fever level in a hospital. There are cities where >50% are Hungarians, places where a large chunk of the population is Romanian (another minority disadvantaged by Ukrainian language law). There aren’t many Slovaks (as far as I know), and a few thousand who could claim Czech ancestry ran away to the Czech Republic right after the coup in 2014. Large areas in the West (mostly Volhynia and Galicia) have lots of people who got “Karta Polaka” (Polish card), which is the first step in obtaining Polish citizenship. Most of them aren’t Polish, but today in Ukraine you can buy “proof” of your Polish ancestry for anywhere from $2,000 to $10,000, depending on the greed of the fraudsters who manufacture this proof. You have to learn the language, though, and claim to be a Catholic. The worse the situation becomes, the more non-Hungarians (e.g., Trans-Carpathian Rusyns) would prefer to join Hungary, or non-Romanians join Romania, or non-Poles join Poland. I am not sure about today, but, unless the course of the Ukrainian “leaders” changes dramatically, I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few years whole areas would be prepared to vote to get the heck out of that failed country. The same is true for Russians, who are the majority in many areas in the East and South, especially in cities, even if nearby villages are mostly Ukrainian.

    I think that in the end Putin (or his successor) would be the only force that stands in the way of disintegration of present-day Ukraine. It can be viable, despite heterogeneity, if it chucks rabid nationalism, makes many languages official (like Switzerland, Belgium, or Singapore), promotes things that unite people, rather than those that divide them, and becomes a federation or a confederation. Otherwise, it is doomed.

    • Replies: @AP
  166. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    You seem to write with some sort of accuracy. It was a simple question of whether iodized salt is not widely available and used in that area.

  167. @AP

    There are movies about the events of May 2, 2014, in Odessa.
    This one was shown in Germany:

    This one is called “Masks of the Revolution” by a French journalist:

    Kiev authorities tried to force European TV stations not to show it: censorship is the last resort of liars.

    There are lots of videos:

    FYI: I am posting these not for the Ukies, but for the honest people reading this thread.

    • Replies: @AP
  168. @AP

    There are videos from Mariupol (May 9, 2014), also showing things Ukies would rather not see

    But the Ukies live in their parallel Universe, anyway. Too bad they murder people in our Universe.

    • Replies: @AP
  169. @LatW

    The elite and the media have what I would call “embattled” nationalism when various groups stand together to form a political nation in the face of danger.

    Sorry for being brusque, but this is getting embarrassing. No sane person who has actually been to Ukraine would ever present the place this gushingly.

    First of all, the elite and the media are seldom anyone’s friend but their own, and this goes doubly — nay, triply — for Ukraine. Need I remind you that President Poroshenko, in those very days in August 2014 when his troops were getting clobbered in Donbass, was busying himself setting up some shady offshore account in Panama? In Ukrainian public life, this is the rule, not the exception, and it’s epidemic at all levels of society. A friend of mine was involved, some time ago, in a major contruction project in the Kiev area, and she was sickened to see how all managers, from senior to junior, did everything they could to line their pockets with company funds. She told me that the building is already showing visible signs of decay from all the embezzlement (replacing quality materials with poorer but cheaper ones and pocketing the difference, etc.).

    Second, you are making in your comments here the basic nationalist error of projecting on a basically rather vulgar and ignorant population all kinds of high-minded ideals, when the bland reality is that Ukrainians, like most post-Soviet people, are driven mainly by a wish to better themselves economically. This is far and away more important than abstract ideas of blood and soil, and it’s also the main reason, I’m sure, why they are such europhiles.

    I have reservations about some other comments in this thread too (Kiev’s nightlife, far from being normal, has been dead for many years and is still godawful; most of Ukrainian society is indeed highly sovok, at least to the outsider), but I can address those some other time.

    • Replies: @LatW
  170. @AP

    i can endorse the Jordanian stat. After Russia imposed counter sanctions on itself I went looking for suppliers of fresh produce from Jordan. The Jordanians I spoke to didn’t want to do business with Russia at any profit. It is mostly the Russian intrusion into the Syrian war. The Jordanians sympathize with the Sunnis who were hoping to get away from Baathist repression.

  171. @AP

    Your point about the talent moving to Moscow has substance. There are talented people who stay at home and their commitment shows. They do good work. (I am describing the Welsh experience). However, in the case of the USSR, it seems to me that essentially all the would be reformers were in Moscow. The local leaders of the republics had no interest in economic reform. Their political nationalism was a means of getting control of the whole of te local cake. This was worst for Ukraine because of such low linguistic and cultural differences.

  172. @Simpleguest

    It’s the racial element that makes Nazism. Mussolini and Franco were nationalist but not racialist. When you hate people because of race then you are a Nazi.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Simpleguest
  173. @Philip Owen

    Do you mean to say that when white people (Germans, just to pick an example) hate white Jews, it is not Nazism? Or when the black people (say, Hutu) hate other black people (say, Tutsi), it is also perfectly fine? A very unorthodox view, maybe 1% of the people would agree with it (the others are just normal).

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Philip Owen
  174. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    There are also movies about alien abductions, that 9-11 was fake, the nonexistence of the Holocaust, etc.

    Odessa events began when pro-Russian thugs attacked pro-Kiev thugs and killed one of the latter. Pro-Russian thugs had done the same thing in Donetsk earlier, scattering the pro-Ukrainians and essentially taking over the city. They hoped to repeat this in Odessa, but they were defeated. A group of them were driven into the Trade Union building where they and the pro-Kiev crowd were throwing Molotov cocktails at each other. It is a bad idea to get into a Molotov cocktail-throwing contest when you are inside a building, it caught fire and about 40 of the pro-Russian activists were killed, despite efforts by many of the pro-Kiev people to save them once the latter realized how deadly the situation had become.

    UN report (pg. 9) corrborates what I wrote:

    https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf

    Russian nationalists spread fairy tales about there being a massacre, that hundreds of pro-Russians were killed, that some of them were executed (I recall reading there were hundreds shot in the basement and it was covered up by the fire), etc. The fairytales helped inflame the situation in the Donbas, leading to the war with thousands of people actually killed. Most of the one killed in this rebellion were pro-Russian residents. Good job.

    Here is a description of the events:

    http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1407453894

    All claims backed up by video evidence, you don’t have to take the authors’ word for it.

    Kiev authorities tried to force European TV stations not to show it: censorship is the last resort of liars.

    So in your world the Holocaust never happened because many countries censor claims that it did not – “censorship is the last resort of liars.”

    Good to know.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  175. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Do you mean to say that when white people (Germans, just to pick an example) hate white Jews, it is not Nazism?

    Nazis considered Semitic Jews to be a different race. So Jewish converts to Christianity were generally not spared. But Nazis didn’t try to exterminate the Turkic Karaite Jews of Crimea, because these Jews were seen as racial kin to Tatars. Nazi persecution of Jews was quite racial.

    Or when the black people (say, Hutu) hate other black people (say, Tutsi), it is also perfectly fine?

    It is not Nazism. Nobody claimed it was fine, except the voices in your head.

  176. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    First video doesn’t show anyone being hit or killed.

    Second video shows a crowd of young men throwing stuff at and harassing soldiers. Let me guess: during Ferguson riots you were against the police?

  177. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Trans-Carpathian region is ~10% Hungarian on average. So, this number is about as informative as an average fever level in a hospital. There are cities where >50% are Hungarians, places where a large chunk of the population is Romanian (another minority disadvantaged by Ukrainian language law).

    Transcarpathia oblast is about 12% Hungarian and 2.6% Romanian.

    The Hungarians almost all live in a narrow strip along the Hungarian border:

    (Red are % of people speaking Hungarian)

    As for “disadvantaged by Ukrainian language law” – this simply means public schools can be in Hungarian in elementary school but must switch to mostly Ukrainian in secondary school (IIRC Hungarian can still be taught but for less than 50% of the time). Ukraine doesn’t want people in its country who grow up unable to speak the Ukrainian language at all.

    By this standard all non-English speaking people are “disadvantaged” in the USA.

    Remember, you were one who hilariously claimed that no American state has English as an official language. Despite living in a state that does.

    The worse the situation becomes, the more non-Hungarians (e.g., Trans-Carpathian Rusyns) would prefer to join Hungary, or non-Romanians join Romania, or non-Poles join Poland.

    The problem for you is that it is not 2014 or 2015 anymore and the situation in the western parts of the country are no longer getting worse and hasn’t been for years. But you believe in fairytales.

    The same is true for Russians, who are the majority in many areas in the East and South, especially in cities,

    Name some cities and areas in Kiev-controlled Ukraine that are majority-Russian. Random villages along the DLNR border don’t count.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AquariusAnon
  178. AP says:
    @Simpleguest

    Post Maidan Ukraine resembles Nazi Germany much more than Fascist Italy.

    LOL. Thanks for demonstrating your level of awareness.

  179. @AP

    No doubt, Nazi thugs and their sponsors came up with many fairy tales. There is footage of Nazis killing people who jumped out of burning Trade Union building in Odessa. I guess they we trying to help these people … help them die, that is. The police and fire brigades were nowhere until the massacre was over. One guy’s phone was on (he was talking to his wife, telling her that he is getting out of that building), and she heard when the Nazis killed him. There are many other eyewitness stories. Suffice it to say that not a single Nazi was arrested or prosecuted after Odessa events. That alone tells us all we need to know.

    • Replies: @AP
  180. @Simpleguest

    There is one big difference between post-Maidan Ukraine and Nazi Germany. German Nazis were capable and showed courage in the war, whereas Ukie Nazis are inept and cowardly. So, you can say that Ukies are wanna-be Nazis, but can’t quite reach that level (not for the lack of trying).

  181. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    There is footage of Nazis killing people who jumped out of burning Trade Union building in Odessa.

    Show it. There is one situation where someone beat someone who jumped out with a stick. He was stopped. There is plenty of footage where “Nazis” outside saved people inside, like when they brought the scaffolding to the building:

    Also:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1sBMnpcgxE&feature=youtu.be

    At 14:00 you see efforts by the “Nazis” outside to save the people inside.

    The biggest victims of the fairytales you peddle are the people of Donbas. These fairytales helped inspire the rebellion that has resulted in thousands of dead Donbas people. How many dead Donbas people for every Odessa trade union casualty?

    The police and fire brigades were nowhere until the massacre was over.

    Fire department indeed came late. Were they Nazis in your world? They were hired under Yanukovich.

    One guy’s phone was on (he was talking to his wife, telling her that he is getting out of that building), and she heard when the Nazis killed him.

    You must believe the similar fairytales about Serbs killing 100,000 of Albanians in Kosovo.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  182. @AP

    There are many differences, but I will name just two.

    1. Everywhere I lived in the States, everything in stores, ATMs, etc., is doubled in English and Spanish. In California you can communicate with the state in more than 20 different languages.

    2. People who come to the US are immigrants. They know what they are getting themselves into. Hungarians, Romanians, Russians, Bulgarians, and Moldovans living on the territory of today’s Ukraine (which is about 6 times bigger than Ukraine Khmelnitskiy joined to Russia) live where their ancestors lived. They did not move anywhere, yet all of a sudden their languages became second-rate.

    Anyway, as primeval tribal nationalism is the surest thing to ruin any country, Ukraine will get exactly what it deserves. Bon Appétit!

    • Replies: @AP
  183. @AP

    So, how many Nazis were arrested or prosecuted in relation to Odessa events in your “democratic” Ukraine?

    This tells any honest person all he/she needs to know about post-Maidan regime in Kiev.

    • Replies: @AP
  184. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    So you failed to address most of the points in that post. Remember when you wrote this, earlier today:

    “I guess the commenters noticed that Ukies never answer inconvenient questions. Example: my post #133 (listing clear examples demonstrating the criminal nature of current Kiev regime) was never answered by any of them, whereas they jump into debate about many other things. Apparently, when you like the lies, the truth hurts.”

    Clearly you described yourself.

    You claimed several people were killed after escaping from the building and claimed this was on video. You refused to provide evidence. Will you retract your lie?

    So, how many Nazis were arrested or prosecuted in relation to Odessa events in your “democratic” Ukraine?

    At least one of the pro-Kiev thugs, Vsevolod Goncharevskii, was arrested and detained for a month before being let go. Of the pro-Russian and pro-Kiev who were both responsible for those events, only the pro-Russian ones were detained for a long time.

    Several of the pro-Russian thugs that were arrested were Russian citizens.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  185. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Everywhere I lived in the States, everything in stores, ATMs, etc., is doubled in English and Spanish

    Is this like your funny claim that no American state has declared English to be the only official language?

    Here is the inside of a Target department store:

    Signs only in English.

    I have a cereal box on the table in front of me. It is only written in English. In Canada it would be written in both English and French.

    You live in Tennessee?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/08/12/states-where-english-is-the-official-language/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f1c87034261f

    Tennessee, which mandates that, “All communications and publications, including ballots, produced by governmental entities in Tennessee shall be conducted in English unless the nature of the course would require otherwise.”

    Perfect example of your “knowledge” and honesty.*

    Hungarians, Romanians, Russians, Bulgarians, and Moldovans living on the territory of today’s Ukraine (which is about 6 times bigger than Ukraine Khmelnitskiy joined to Russia) live where their ancestors lived.

    True of Hungarians and Romanians. On the other hand, all Russians in Ukraine are descended from people who moved to Ukraine, mostly in the 19th century and later (there were military garrisons staffed by Russians as early as the 17th century but settlement came much later). For example Kiev-born Mikhail Bulgakov’s parents were from the Bryansk region in Russia. Prokofiev was born in Donetsk but his mother was from St. Petersburg and father was also from Russia.

    In contrast, there are Spanish-speaking people in the USA whose ancestors lived in this territory first. Parts of America had belonged to Spain or Mexico before they became part of the USA. Many of these states have English as the only official language:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement#Current_law

    *It is true that credit card companies will allow a Spanish option. And here is a difference between the USA and Ukraine: Spanish and English are more different from each other than are Ukrainian and Russian, and while almost every Russian in Ukraine can understand Ukrainian thanks to exposure in schools, TV etc. many Spanish-speaking people in the USA cannot understand English.

  186. Mikhail says: • Website

    On the other hand, all Russians in Ukraine are descended from people who moved to Ukraine, mostly in the 19th century and later (there were military garrisons staffed by Russians as early as the 17th century but settlement came much later). For example Kiev-born Mikhail Bulgakov’s parents were from the Bryansk region in Russia. Prokofiev was born in Donetsk but his mother was from St. Petersburg and father was also from Russia.

    Surely not all, as the history goes back centuries between the two neighboring lands with a link to Rus. No mention of Sikorsky. Not that I know or especially care either way.

  187. @AnonFromTN

    There is more to race than colour. You really are from Tennessee.

    • Replies: @iffen
  188. @Simpleguest

    What Ukraine is doing regarding its Russian minority (suppressing the usage of the Russian language) is neither fascist nor Nazi. It’s standard 19th century liberal nationalism. Was the French Third Republic Fascist or Nazi? It was neither.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  189. @AP

    Cities in Kiev-controlled Ukraine that are majority Russian:

    Kharkiv, Odessa, and Dnipropetrovsk come to mind. Maybe Kherson but I have to double check. Kiev should be around 50-50 Russian and Ukrainian.

    • Replies: @AP
  190. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Cities in Kiev-controlled Ukraine that are majority Russian:

    Kharkiv, Odessa, and Dnipropetrovsk come to mind. Maybe Kherson but I have to double check. Kiev should be around 50-50 Russian and Ukrainian.

    More nonsense.

    The city of Kharkiv is 63% Ukrainian and 33% Russian.

    Dnipropetrovsk is 73% Ukrainian and 24% Russian. It has become rather nationalistic lately.

    Odessa is 68% Ukrainian, 25% Russian.

    Kiev is 82% Ukrainian, 13% Russian.

    ::::::::::::::::::

    In contrast, Donetsk was 48% Russian, 47% Ukrainian.

  191. @AP

    So, let’s do the tally. 48 official victims. More than four years passed. One Nazi detained for a month, then let go. Zero prosecuted. Quite a few on the side that suffered 48 casualties are still in jail more than four years later.

    This answers my question fully. The government in Kiev is reluctant to punish its ideological twins, focuses the punishment on the other side. Hitler and Goebbels would approve. They would be proud of Kiev government. Case closed.

    • Replies: @AP
  192. DreadIlk says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Anecdote time. My parents are Ukraineophiles and are renting a place out in US to acquaintances from Kiev. Many post Yanukovich Ukrainians who were stealing and making a great living for themselves changed sides like they were always anti Yanukovich and did nothing wrong. Well these guys are this case. The family income from rents went from 15k a month to 3k. So they decided to make the move here finally. This is to illustrate how their “economy” is doing now.

    Also the comment you responded to made me laugh about new rockets. Ukrainians come up with a new blueprint every month and then we never hear any news about it again. I will surprised if they bring anything to bear that is not a hand me down from NATO.

    • Replies: @AP
  193. LatW says:
    @Swedish Family

    No sane person who has actually been to Ukraine would ever present the place this gushingly.

    First of all, the elite and the media are seldom anyone’s friend but their own, and this goes doubly — nay, triply — for Ukraine.

    Well, we are all different with differing perspectives, many perspectives here are somewhat subjective, I’d say. I never denied there was no problem with the elite (and hating the “vlada” no matter what is definitely a malady that many EE societies have had). The biggest problem is the money that’s leaving the country, is being expatriated. These holes need to be patched up in order for the money to stay in the country so that Ukraine can pay for its needs. But please don’t pretend like there’s no offshoring in the West.

    Let me explain what I meant by this phrase:

    “The elite and the media have what I would call “embattled” nationalism when various groups stand together to form a political nation in the face of danger.”

    The elite is not just Poroshenko (who can be voted out of the office, unlike his colleagues in some neighboring countries), but Rada, different local governments, the military, celebrities, academia, media personalities, etc. People such as Vlashchenko on ZIK and Gordon have been Russophone for years (Vlashchenko’s bilingual actually, Gordon even a bit of a sovok), but they are very patriotic and pro-Ukraine. There is a myriad of leaders and opinion makers, from different regions, who have all rallied together, not because they’re “nationalistic” per se (real nationalists are a small percentage), but because they feel embattled. They’re on the same page. There is a nationwide volunteer network that supports the military run by patient and quiet mothers and wives. This is what I meant with the above, it doesn’t mean there are no problems with clans and groups that are exploiting the system. As I said, the most urgent issue would be to stop the expatriation of money so that the money can be reinvested inside the country. Ukraine is not the only EE country with this problem. Anyway, I said the above in response to the post about the “Galician clique” – some people tend to believe that this Galician clique runs the country when in fact the elites are composed of people from all over the place (the above mentioned Dnipro, for instance, has displayed some real, proud, independent nationalism). To say that there is a West – East schism (geographically speaking) is superficial, a simplification that is being parroted over and over (Richard Spencer just said it again, not that he matters anyway). One can possibly talk about a “pro-Western vs pro-Eastern” orientation preference but even that is not completely accurate because there are many differing opinions (there is the “third way”, Ukraino-centric, position, too).

    In Ukrainian public life, this is the rule, not the exception, and it’s epidemic at all levels of society.

    This is sad, but unexplored markets come with both opportunities and risks. That’s on the person who makes the investment – they take the risk and they’re not entitled to anything. Yes, they shouldn’t steal from the company, that can backfire. It’s on them. You on the other hand are welcome to explore contracts in your own country – deal with the overhead, the taxes, market saturation, wages, fussy, entitled employees, unions, etc. If your friend was literally stolen from, there’s litigation. If this market doesn’t work out, you move on. The world is big. Yea, it’s their loss. But Eastern Slavic peoples will do things their own way. They don’t really owe you to create a perfect business environment. Maybe they owe it to themselves and their children, lol. Yea, they should be interested in working together, but Ukraine should really focus on national export and they need to create a strong, national bourgeoisie (which they already have but it needs to be more broadly distributed) – construction, retail, all those things will come on their own. Btw, you’re talking as if there are no successful construction projects in Kyiv (of which there are plenty)!

    I’m glad the Kiev nightlife is dead. It was getting a bit out of hand what with all the Western dudes and PUAs flocking there. There is a load of other entertainment options (festivals, concerts, etc), outdoor activities. The women should go with their own men.

    rather vulgar and ignorant population

    Subjective and judgy opinion. Purely situational and can be said about any society depending on where you hang out. There are gopniks in all East Slavic countries, and their equivalents in many societies abound. The Ukrainians that I have experience with definitely do not fit that profile, so blame yourself.

    Ukrainian society is indeed highly sovok

    You wanna see Sovok, check out this summer’s Independence Day parade in Minsk (banners from 1945), or Zakharchenko laying flowers at Kobzon’s monument a day before his death. No biggie, to each his own.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  194. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Again you failed to address the numerous falsehoods you made. You ignored them. What was it you said before about those who ignore inconvenient information?

    “I guess the commenters noticed that Ukies never answer inconvenient questions. Example: my post #133 (listing clear examples demonstrating the criminal nature of current Kiev regime) was never answered by any of them, whereas they jump into debate about many other things. Apparently, when you like the lies, the truth hurts.”

    So, let’s do the tally. 48 official victims. More than four years passed. One Nazi detained for a month, then let go. Zero prosecuted. Quite a few on the side that suffered 48 casualties are still in jail more than four years later.

    The side that was prosecuted started the violence.

    I agree that both sides ought to be prosecuted fully.

    But the fact that the only thing you could come up with was that the state has been biased in terms of prosecution proves that your fairytale about a deliberate massacre, the fairytale that led to thousands of dead Donbassers, is just that – a fairytale.

    Pro-Kiev thugs starting the violence – false.
    People beaten to death outside the building – false.
    Hundreds of dead – false.
    People inside the Trade Union building not being violent themselves – false.

  195. AP says:
    @DreadIlk

    Also the comment you responded to made me laugh about new rockets. Ukrainians come up with a new blueprint every month and then we never hear any news about it again.

    New weapons systems are on public display:

    https://defence-blog.com/army/ukraine-unveils-new-artillery-missile-systems-military-parade-kyiv.html

    They have been publicly tested:

    https://defence-blog.com/missiles/new-ukrainian-high-precision-rockets-system-completes-final-test.html

    On 25 April, was conducted the final testing of the “Vilkha” high-precision rockets system in the south of the Kherson region. President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko, military leaders, experts, and military attaches from 7 countries who expressed their interest in negotiating the acquisition of new, powerful Ukrainian weapons, were present at the tests.

    Are you one of the pro-Russian people who thinks it is always 2014 in Ukraine?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  196. @AP

    Ukraine produced some rocket engines for some Russian ICBMs, so I’d find it difficult to believe that they wouldn’t be in a position to develop their own missiles, if they wanted to.

    And apparently they do want to.

  197. LatW says:

    Grom. :) Cool name (“shattering thunder”, they could’ve also named it “Perun”), there’s also a howitzer called “Bohdan” (like Bohdan Khmelnytsky).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  198. @LatW

    Russia is also developing a missile called “Grom.” It’s an air-to-surface missile.

    https://www.janes.com/article/81276/new-grom-air-to-surface-missile-undergoes-flight-tests

  199. @reiner Tor

    I guess, if Romania is to start suppressing the Hungarian language you will just say:
    “Oh, well, it’s just a standard 19th century liberal nationalism”.

    On a serious note, nazism and fasizm, as “supremacy of my nation” based ideologies are just a culmination of, what you call, standard 19th century liberal nationalism.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  200. @Philip Owen

    “When you hate people because of race then you are a Nazi.”

    Both fascizm and nazism are “collective” based supremacy ideologies.
    In that sense they are synonyms.

    The fact that in one case the collective is the “race” while in other the collective is the “nation”, (although even that is debatable) does not matter much. The common thing they have is the “supremacy of my collective” idea.

    But OK.
    Ukrainian nationalists fit well within your definition of “nazis” since they maintain that Russians are “untermench” Asiatic race.

    • Replies: @AP
  201. @Simpleguest

    I guess, if Romania is to start suppressing the Hungarian language you will just say:
    “Oh, well, it’s just a standard 19th century liberal nationalism”.

    Hungary doesn’t approve of standard 19th century liberal nationalism, at least not when it’s practiced against the Hungarian minorities there. You might have heard that Hungary is currently vetoing any cooperation between Ukraine and the EU because of this.

    But it’s just wrong to call it Nazism, when it’s not.

    On a serious note, nazism and fasizm, as “supremacy of my nation” based ideologies are just a culmination of, what you call, standard 19th century liberal nationalism.

    They are also quite a bit different. For example the Nazis didn’t really want to assimilate all minorities. They preferred deportation and/or extermination. That’s a serious difference.

    Fascism is nationalistic, and it’s usually not as racially exclusive as Nazism. But it’s different from what you have in Ukraine. For example fascism stands for rule by an absolute ruler (usually called “the Leader” in the local language), and some kind of corporatist organization of society and the economy. You have none of these in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    , @Simpleguest
  202. @reiner Tor

    “They are also quite a bit different. For example the Nazis didn’t really want to assimilate all minorities. They preferred deportation and/or extermination. That’s a serious difference.”

    Question: What would the fascists do if assimilation subjects refuse to be assimilated?
    My guess is, they would go full “nazi”. What is yours?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  203. AP says:
    @Simpleguest

    Both fascizm and nazism are “collective” based supremacy ideologies.

    So is communism. Or any nationalism. Or extreme religious movements.

    They are not all Nazis.

    When you mix these terms up, like you do, they become meaningless.

    I will make it simple for the simple guest:

    Fascism is collectivism based on the State.

    Nazism is collectivism based on a Race (as defined by Nazis), not the state , though they want the Race to have its own State..

    Communism is collectivism based on class, represented by the Party that controls the State.

    ISIS or Puritinism collectivism based on religion which controls a State.

    In the Ukrainian case, there are Fascists (Right Sector) and Nazis (Azov) but most are simply 19th century-style liberal nationalists as one also sees in the mainstream in Poland or Hungary.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Gerard2
  204. @LatW

    These holes need to be patched up in order for the money to stay in the country so that Ukraine can pay for its needs.

    I actually think autarky has much to recommend it, but I doubt it’s the way forward for tiny, export-oriented countries such as Sweden and Latvia. I don’t know about Latvia, but Sweden can’t even feed itself (we have to rely on Denmark). There are limits to how far you can go it your own.

    But please don’t pretend like there’s no offshoring in the West.

    Wouldn’t cross my mind. High-level corruption is alive and well.

    Btw, you’re talking as if there are no successful construction projects in Kyiv (of which there are plenty)!

    The girl in question is Ukrainian, not Swedish, and from what she has told me, this is still the norm in 2018. I can assure you that she has a very good idea of where Ukraine’s building industry is at.

    I’m glad the Kiev nightlife is dead. It was getting a bit out of hand what with all the Western dudes and PUAs flocking there. There is a load of other entertainment options (festivals, concerts, etc), outdoor activities. The women should go with their own men.

    I agree, but (1) I was referring to Kiev’s nightlife in the very broad sense (few people walking the streets at night; very few crowded bars and restaurants), and (2) there were always very, very few foreigners in Ukraine (except Turks) and still are.

    The Ukrainians that I have experience with definitely do not fit that profile, so blame yourself.

    Nor do the people I mix with. I’m merely pointing out that the great masses, as a rule, aren’t terribly interested in anything beyond the pleasure principle. I don’t mean anything condescending by this: common people are often far nicer and human than self-styled “goodthinkers.”

    By the way, what are your thoughts on the upcoming Swedish elections? Do you support SD, AfS or NMR for parliament? (I seem to remember you had friends who will run in the local elections.)

    • Replies: @LatW
  205. @AP

    most are simply 19th century-style liberal nationalists as one also sees in the mainstream in Poland or Hungary.

    That’s not entirely true about Hungary. Hungary has just a few small ethnic minorities, and the government wants to keep it that way.

    But it’s not really desired for them to assimilate. The idea is that they should keep their separate cultures and languages, as much as possible, since they are small and inconsequential anyway. The new constitution (a creation of Orbán) even makes it possible for ethnic minorities to send representatives to the National Assembly with significantly fewer votes than is normally required. The German National Self-Government actually sent one MP that way.

    Another example is Jobbik, back when they were still radical nationalists, had a candidate for the mayor of Budapest who was an ethnic German, and had been a member of the German National Self-Government.

    So it’s not really 19th century nationalism, if only because we no longer have many minorities. There are some elements of it, but it’s different.

    • Replies: @AP
  206. @reiner Tor

    Another point.

    You say:

    “For example the Nazis didn’t really want to assimilate all minorities. They preferred deportation and/or extermination.”

    What would be the ultimate result of assimilation, or in the more extreme case, deportation or extermination of minorities?
    The ultimate result would be a creation of a mono-ethnic (or mono-racial) collective.

    Going back to the very beginning of this discussion, you reacted to the following statement:

    - creation of mono-ethnic states is by definition fascism-

    when you replied:

    - No it is not.

    Now, you say and prove the opposite: creation of mono-ethnic (mono-racial) states is the ultimate goal of both fascist and nazis.

    According to you, they differ in preferred methods – one prefer “more humane” assimilation while the others are extreme beasts and go straight to extermination.

    And so on, and so on.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  207. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    19th century liberal nationalists wanted to assimilate others, but in case where there were no others to assimilate they promoted local languages and semi-accurate national myths involving interpretations of certain historical facts that served to glorify their people. These myths typically clashed with the myths of their neighbors. They were mostly democratic.

    This type of nationalism seems to have died in the latter 20th century in Western Europe but is alive in Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, the Baltics. As you correctly pointed out, it is absurd to compare it to Nazism.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  208. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    but most are simply 19th century-style liberal nationalists as one also sees in the mainstream in Poland or Hungary.

    errr…..every single word in this idiotic sentence is a complete and utter lie.

  209. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    Poland,Hungary are actual cultures with actual , history and actual celebrated people in their folklore and history( well, Poland not so much, at all)

    Ukraine has none of this you braindead prick. A capital city where they all speak Russian, are flooded with Russian customs, is regarded as the heart of Russian culture and whose whole history is as one with Russia

    Poland and Hungary have something behind their idea of nationhood…Ukraine fuckall of this because it is just a western-imposed form of anti-Russian-ism you imbecile.

    It results in braindead nonsense like Poroshenko falsely claiming people in history as “Ukrainian” when the people involved are on record as identifying themselves as Russian,

    As you correctly pointed out, it is absurd to compare it to Nazism.

    I think the entirely justified comparison to Nazism is due to the propensity of the illegal Kiev dipshits for false flags to either come to or consolidate power and …the fact that the Kiev Nazi regime killed and certainly arrested more people in 5 months, perhaps even first 5 weeks of it’s scumbag existence…….than the Nazi’s did in their first 5 years you prick.

    Also the torchlit processions, lack of free media, lunatics in power, arresting and torturing pregnant women on made-up charges of treason or conspiracy, strange and sinister iconography…oh and worshipping Nazi collaborators (itself a compunction made because there is no history with which to claim anybody before as a “Ukrainian” hero)

    every single famous Ukrainian is a hero/idol in Russia..i.e a Russian hero

    the only exception to this are fuckedup Odessa-fire celebrating scumabag perennial losers Bandera, Shukheyevich and Chikatilo….literally

    Lithuanians, Russians or Germans aren’t claiming Chopin as their own, Germans or Romanians aren’t claiming Puskas from Hungary ( incidentally all the great Ukrainian USSR footballers are on record as pro-Russian/advocating union with Russia, Shevchenko has never critisiced Russia and is big friends with Abramovich

    then we get into a whole host of cultural,tempermental things that a sack of faeces from 1000′s of miles away ( because of scumbag Nazi rapist POS grandfather running away in disgrace) wouldn’t have any idea about

    They were mostly democratic

    hahahaha! To even claim this nutjob ukrop setup is liberal or democratic or in anyway related to some fake movement in the 19th centure…..is braindad even for a POS like you

    Nice to see an exact replica of how Russians celebrate sending their kids to school for the first time……with how Ukrainians are doing so (most of the kids , immune to BS are speaking Russian “I wonder why”)…one of many millions of “coincidenced” not found with Poland or Slovakia or Canada but with Russia ,that Ukrainians value greatly

  210. @Simpleguest

    Yes, assimilation is more humane than extermination. You need to be a moron not to see it.

    By the way 19th century liberal nationalists might have had a mono-ethnic state as an end-goal (though it’s a different kind of mono-ethnic state, not nearly as racially pure – another big difference), but they often realized that it was impossible. For example Hungarian nationalists often realized that they had no chance to assimilate all of the ethnic minorities (consisting of half the population – excluding Croatia), they merely wanted to assimilate as many as possible. So their end-goal was a mono-ethnic state only in a purely hypothetical way, they accepted that they needed to co-exist with the ethnic minorities for the foreseeable future. This is totally different from Nazis who were prepared to apply maximum violence to get rid of the minorities and create the mono-ethnic state quickly.

    Regarding non-Nazi fascism, it varied, but was also usually way more violent and oppressive than 19th century liberal nationalism, though certainly way less violent than Nazism. The difference is obvious to all.

  211. @Simpleguest

    What would the fascists do if assimilation subjects refuse to be assimilated?

    They would keep trying to assimilate, prohibiting the usage of minority languages at schools, offices, etc. They would crack down on local cultural associations, restrict political rights, and similar. They wouldn’t engage in wholesale mass murder.

    19th century liberal nationalists wouldn’t even go that far. We know that Hungarian nationalists couldn’t assimilate their minorities, and basically after half a century rule they were still busy restricting minority language education. It was not very effective (though it must be noted that there was some assimilation), but they accepted that either it would take several generations or even centuries to assimilate all minorities or there’d always be some minorities.

    Are you so ignorant about history that you don’t know that? No wonder you keep throwing the word “Nazi” around. It’s the only bad thing you know. Your worldview is similar to that of children or Americans (like John McCain), you think someone is either good or evil, white or black.

  212. LatW says:
    @Swedish Family

    I actually think autarky has much to recommend it, but I doubt it’s the way forward for tiny, export-oriented countries such as Sweden and Latvia.

    It isn’t and I wasn’t talking about small, export oriented countries. Ukraine is in a completely different league and has much more potential. I was alluding more to the problem of the capital flight – Ukraine’s shadow economy is significant. I understand the reluctance to keep the funds in the country and I certainly don’t support replacing a local, national oligarchy with a transnational one, either, but the money should be circulating inside of the country. Thankfully, at least some of the money is coming back from Cyprus and similar places in the form of FDI.

    https://korrespondent.net/ukraine/3834962-yz-ukrayny-v-ofshory-vyvely-148-mlrd-smy

    I don’t know about Latvia, but Sweden can’t even feed itself (we have to rely on Denmark).

    The Baltics can totally feed themselves and then some, we buy from each other all the time and export a lot. We can always send you some organic chips and craft beer, if things get really bad. :) So don’t you worry.

    I can assure you that she has a very good idea of where Ukraine’s building industry is at.

    Well, that’s unfortunate, as I said, but there are still new budinki being built. So obviously not everyone has been scared off (either by security issues or the problems in the construction industry).

    Maybe we need to give them a break:

    https://euobserver.com/opinion/139169

    Do you support SD, AfS or NMR for parliament? (I seem to remember you had friends who will run in the local elections.)

    Why, do you think I should support Lars Ohly? Oh, wait, he abandoned us… :) And what torment must he be feeling now what with all the “rasisterna” running around the country. :)

    Funny how you put all three of those in one sentence. :)

    Well, SD has definitely changed (the communication with my friend changed too, it’s less fun and less open now, no more the angry and uncompromising man I used to know, now that they got some success, lol, I have to be tactful since he keeps coming up with all kinds of excuses such as “nothing more than civnat is possible right now”, etc., I just play along, lol, this happens all the time and better something than nothing). Anyway, what is more interesting is how they’re going to be able to form a coalition. He even said that another election might be needed, if the coalition is not formed. No more bloc politics, I guess.

  213. iffen says:
    @Philip Owen

    You really are from Tennessee.

    Hey! Hey! Hey!

    Watch it.

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