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The Ukraine Elections 2019
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So it’s pretty clear from the exit polls that Zelensky and Poroshenko are going to be the ones duking it out in the second round.

It’s also very likely that the next Ukrainian President is almost certainly going to be Zelensky.

The former might have had a chance if there was only 5% separating Poroshenko (19%) from Zelensky (31%), but a ten percent gap – one that is getting confirmed by incoming results – is too high a hurdle to clear, no matter the “administrative resources” at his disposal. This is especially important as almost all Boyko supporters (10%) and most Tymoshenko (14%) supporters will go over to Zelensky.

The only regions where Poroshenko won – according to the exit polls – is in the west and in Kiev. Incidentally, these are also the only regions that voted to exit the USSR.

Turnout has fallen massively in the west and center, a stark change from the elections in 2014, when the buoyant Maidanist regions had much higher turnout than the east. Now turnout has largely equalized. It is especially low in Zakarpattia oblast, which would seem to confirm some of what Beckow has been saying about the political apathy of people from that region.

Poroshenko’s platform is, in a nutshell, patriotic: “Army. Language. Faith.” Ironically, for this former functionary in the Party of Regions, he has become the candidate of the more svidomy regions. But it is neither very plausible at a personal level, nor has it been competently realized to any major extent, plus it takes a back seat to issues such as higher utilities bills so far as most people are concerned. So, just as pre-elections polls predicted, Poroshenko bombed.

Zelensky’s program consists of cool, hip liberal rhetoric: Streamlining bureaucracy, voting online, EU and NATO accession. The kind of program that appeals more to people outside Kiev and Galicia. As a comedian with no previous experience with politics, it also makes him part of the general populist wave sweeping the world, in which “outsiders” from Trump to Macron have been sweeping elections in the West in the past few years.

He has also said he wants to wind down the war in the Donbass; a position that has the support of an absolute majority of Ukrainians, according to other opinion polls. This does not mean he is any kind of “Russophile”, as some of Poroshenko’s partisans have ludicrously claimed – he is just more realistic. He contributed a lot of his own money to the ATO.

He is not an oligarch like Poroshenko or Tymoshenko (both of whom have also been implicated in corruption schemes over the years). However, it is openly known that Kolomoysky stands behind Zelensky, the Dnepropetrovsk honcho evidently having decided that he would be better suited for the Presidency than Tymoshenko, with whom he was previously allied. The stories of how Western educated technocrats and reformists have become disillusioned with the course of the Ukraine after 2014, and gradually abandoned or jumped ship, has become almost a trope of the more insightful Western reporting about that country. With Zelensky surrounded by oligarchs; financed and heavily shilled by one of them; and without the initial promise of the Euromaidan attracting human capital, his chances of success – transforming the Ukraine from an oligarchy into a “normal” country – don’t appear to be bright.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Elections, Ukraine 
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  1. Porky’s strategy was to keep digging and pretend it is not a hole. Porky will pull all stops now, as his choice is bleak: either a “win”, or a hasty flight, or a lengthy jail term (if he avoids gallows, which is a big if, considering how much he deserves it). Zelensky (i.e., Kolomoysky), if he is allowed to win, might stop digging. Considering where Ukraine is heading, that would be progress. It remains to be seen whether Washington politburo allows its vassal to ditch Porky. Then again, as far as masters are concerned, scum like Porky is as disposable as condoms.

  2. AP says:

    Agree with your article. Zelensky is the most likely winner. But I suspect the result will be closer than you think.

    Devil’s advocate for possible Poroshenko win:

    as almost all Boyko supporters (10%) and most Tymoshenko (14%) supporters will go over to Zelensky.

    1. As a pro-EU, pro-NATO guy Zelensky will not get a all of the first-round Boyko votes. He will get the ones who go to vote because he is is less anti-Russian than the alternative, but many Boyko voters will just stay home rather than vote for one of two pro-NATO pro-EU candidates and turnout will decrease.

    2. Poroshenko will get most of the Hrytsenko votes (7%), Smeshko votes (6%) and Lyashko votes (5%). These combined beat Tymoshenko.

    3. Tymoshenko may be a double-edged sword – her support will tarnish Zelensky’s anti-oligarch image and highlight his links to the Dnipropetrovsk clan of Kolomoysky.

    It is possible that some significant number of Zelensky’s first round votes were a protest vote that people made to send a message, after which they will be more cautious when choosing the actual president? Poroshenko has made a speech to Zelensky voters saying essentially “I heard you and I will now make sure to fix corruption.”

    We also do not know what if any dirt Poroshenko may have but is holding onto about Zelensky.

    Altogether these factors are probably not enough to close the 10% gap but as I said the election may be closer than you assume.

    Anyways, here is Bershidsky’s article:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-29/slovakia-and-ukraine-election-populists-aren-t-like-the-others

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Mr. Hack
  3. Matt Forney says: • Website

    Piggybacking on my comments on Anatoly’s post on Russia-Ukraine relations (linked at the bottom), it looks like Ukraine is settling into a similar pattern as Georgia, with the two main political blocs being radical pro-West nationalists (Poroshenko/Saakashvili, Poroshenko Bloc-People’s Front/United National Movement) and moderate pro-West nationalists (Zelensky/Ivanishvili, Servant of the People/Georgian Dream).

    If the pattern holds, expect that Zelensky will follow the same pattern that Ivanishvili did when his party took power in 2012: relations with Russia will improve somewhat, nationalist rhetoric will be ratcheted back, there will be some surface reforms in the civil service/social services etc., but there will be no fundamental changes from the previous administration, and definitely no territorial changes (Zelensky’s talk of solving the Donbass crisis is a pipe dream, and Georgia will be sending the tanks into Abkhazia and South Ossetia the minute the Russians are no longer able to defend either).

    Russian nationalists will have to accept that, for the moment, Ukraine is now in the West’s orbit, and barring a black swan event that fundamentally alters E.U./U.S. influence, this will not change. To be honest, given the consistently higher birthrates in Western Ukraine, Euromaidan (or something like it) was probably inevitable.

    With regards to Zakarpattia Oblast, I’ve been there. It’s considerably different than the rest of Western Ukraine, having been historically been part of Hungary (and Czechoslovakia between the World Wars), and a lot of the “Ukrainians” there are Ukrainianized Rusyns or Stalin-era transplants. There’s also still a small minority of Hungarians, particularly around Berehovo (one of Fidesz’s MEPs is from Zakarpattia), as well as some Romanians and a ton of Gypsies (there’s one particularly annoying Gypsy woman who hangs around the Chop train station begging for money). The region in general is separated from the rest of the country by the Carpathian Mountains, with terrible roads and trains and no air links (the closest airports with scheduled flights are in Košice, Slovakia and Debrecen, Hungary), so the overall attitude there is less nationalistic than the rest of Western Ukraine.

    Here’s something I wrote about visiting Mukachevo last summer: https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-69029-post-1815629.html

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/future-russia-ukraine/

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin, Aedib
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Beckow
    , @Gerard2
    , @Anon
  4. neutral says:

    Do elections mean anything? Cuckraine is a total US puppet (and by extension a jewish one), so whoever wins it won’t mean anything, they won’t have any real power. Having said that, they want Poroshenko to win because he is a predictable puppet, which means he has already won.

  5. E says:

    Which Ukrainian citizens were banned from voting, and would it have affected the outcome?

    You mentioned on your Twitter account that Ukrainians currently working or living in Russia were forbidden from voting. I haven’t been closely following this. How many people is that, and who would they have voted for? Was it just Russia, or other countries too?

    I don’t see a category for expat votes in that chart you posted. In places like Moldova, the expat vote has been a significant influence (their current president came close to not winning because he had almost no support among expats). Is Ukraine similar?

    • Replies: @AP
  6. AP says:
    @E

    Which Ukrainian citizens were banned from voting, and would it have affected the outcome?

    AFAIK expats in Russia could come back to Ukraine to vote but couldn’t vote in Russia. This probably hurt the pro-Russian Opposition Bloc which didn’t have much of a chance anyways (as it is they got about 10% of the vote).

  7. AP says:
    @Matt Forney

    Generally agree. There were only two pro-Russian candidates, Boyko and Vilkul, got about 11% and 4% of the vote, respectively. The others were different flavors of pro-EU.

    *This actually matches past opinion polls in which about 15% of Ukrainians prefer integration with Russia vs. integration with the EU if forced to choose between the two.

    • Replies: @Jon0815
  8. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    Poroshenko will get most of the Hrytsenko votes (7%)

    Grytsenko this morning…..” I will not , in any circumstances, support or vote for Petro Poroshenko as President”
    ……. “I won’t say if my supporters should or should not vote for Zelensky”

    That’s pretty much a guarantee of most of his voters not going over to Poroshenko you idiot

    [MORE]

    and Lyashko votes (5%).

    …LOL – did you listen you ANY ( of course not, you don’t know anything, nor live/visited the place or speak Ukrop/Russian) of his campaign you cretin. No way are he/majority of his supporters switching to Poroshenko

    It is possible that some significant number of Zelensky’s first round votes were a protest vote that people made to send a message, after which they will be more cautious when choosing the actual president?

    LOL…..a “protest vote” in between rounds? A political phenomenon invented by a random imbecile troll on the UNZ comment boards. Any example of this BS occurring on 50% majority/2 round Presidential vote ? Of course not you fantasist.

    3. Tymoshenko may be a double-edged sword – her support will tarnish Zelensky’s anti-oligarch image and highlight his links to the Dnipropetrovsk clan of Kolomoysky

    as if nobody already knows this………support will likely be done in the same non-enthusiastic way Yushchenko endorsed Yanukovich in 2nd round 2010

    Altogether these factors are probably not enough to close the 10% gap but as I said the election may be closer than you assume.

    going to get annihilated in the east, south, Kiev, North, most of central………except in Lvov, Tsernopil – he’s 50/50 at best in most of the western oblasts – that’s no chance….and an endorsement of what a catastrophic failure for the whole country the last 5 years have been. Valtsman is now outside of range of the , at maxiumum, 1.5 million extra voters who are going to vote in the second round and which he would have relied on falsification of this number + switched votes to give him majority

    • Replies: @AP
  9. bob sykes says:

    Russia could probably swallow Ukraine in the EU, but NATO membership might be a redline.

  10. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Poroshenko has made a speech to Zelensky voters saying essentially “I heard you and I will now make sure to fix corruption.”

    Poroshenko’s promises to curb corruption after he hypothetically gains a second term are total nonsense. If he felt no compunction to do so during his first term, knowing that the nation would be holding him accountable after the Maidan, why would anyone believe him now/, being a sitting duck president? He had his chance to fight corruption after the Maidan and did nothing, why would he do so now and gain powerful enemies?

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @reiner Tor
    , @AP
  11. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    If he had fought corruption during his first term, he wouldn’t be in the hole that he’s in today. People would trust him more, otherwise he’s seen as just another corrupt oligarch himself.

  12. @Mr. Hack

    It took time to build up his base. Would he win, he’d now have way more political capital than he had back then.

    But I agree that the more likely explanation is that he’s just a corrupt hack himself anyway.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  13. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    Where’s his base today? He won what, only two oblasts in the whole country? Once Zelensky’s team offers Tymoshenko some juicy post in the new government, it’s lights out for Poroshenko. He should have foreseen all of this much sooner, prepared more seriously. I actually prefer him to Zelensky, but….

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  14. Aedib says:

    Why Novoazovsk is depicted as a part of Ukraine? It belongs to the DPR.

  15. @Mr. Hack

    I actually prefer him to Zelensky, but….

    When the country is a circus, the most appropriate president is a clown. Kolomoysky placed his bets right, although he is an even dirtier scum than Porky (if that is possible).

  16. I have an ignorant question

    What is the history, etymology, and meaning of the word “svidomy”?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  17. Beckow says:
    @Matt Forney

    It is about what people will settle for, not about what they want or their dreams. Uprisings against geography usually end that way.

    What is missing is the EU side. Zelensky wants EU. Well, so do: Algeria, Bangladesh, Serbia, Vietnam, …. and 100 additional countries. Vermont and Ocasio-Cortez would probably also vote to ‘be in EU‘. Nothing distinguishes Ukraine from Tunisia, they both would prefer to be in EU.

    How realistic is it in the next 25 years? (not in next century) EU has stopped its expansion and is internally weak – they can’t override opposition from strong countries or a combination of smaller ones. Economically there is little benefit to adding a very poor Ukraine with 35-40 million hungry people who would have to be subsidised. All the benefits for EU are in the Association: access to Ukraine’s market and cheap labor. Why would EU take on the costs? I have never heard anyone answer that question.

    Western strategy in 2014 was to get the Russian Navy out of Crimea and to get access to the Russian markets through Ukraine. Putin stopped both, it was predictable and easy. I sometimes speculate about Maidan that would be smarter and would manage to prevent it. But maybe it was never in the cards – even timing with the Sochi Olympics didn’t help. So much planning, 5-star hotels, charts – and all for almost nothing. That’s what happens when people decide to pee into a hurricane to reverse its course. It is another Western specialty: revolutions against physics. One has to seriously wonder about the quality of Western ‘elite‘ education.

  18. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    “Svidomy” (свідомий in Ukrainian) originally meant “conscientious” or “aware/conscious” (don’t trust google translate – it’s crap). After 2014 Ukies started using the word for the people who subscribe to their version of nationalism, which boils down to anti-Russian Nazi. Then in Russian it became a derogatory term, used to mock Ukie Nazis. Hence Russian phrase that “svidomism is a mental disorder”.

  19. @Beckow

    I’d wonder more about the quality of the people who bought into an obvious lie and keep worshipping this pipe dream. As the saying goes, “fool me once – shame on you, fool me twice – shame on me”.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  20. Jon0815 says:
    @AP

    There were only two pro-Russian candidates, Boyko and Vilkul, got about 11% and 4% of the vote, respectively. The others were different flavors of pro-EU.

    *This actually matches past opinion polls in which about 15% of Ukrainians prefer integration with Russia vs. integration with the EU if forced to choose between the two.

    Except that in those polls, support for EU integration is around 45%, and support for integration with neither EU or Customs Union is around 40%. Only a 3-1 pro-EU advantage, not 6-1. And if those in the “neither” category lean significantly either way, it’s more likely toward the Customs Union, since when you offer Ukrainians a simple yes/no choice on CU membership, the ratio against it falls to 2-1.

    So for whatever reason, the pro-EU position is greatly over-represented among Ukrainian presidential candidates (perhaps due to it being over-represented among the oligarchs?).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Beckow
  21. Gerard2 says:
    @Matt Forney

    with the two main political blocs being radical pro-West nationalists (Poroshenko/Saakashvili, Poroshenko Bloc-People’s Front/United National Movement) and moderate pro-West nationalists (Zelensky/Ivanishvili, Servant of the People/Georgian Dream)

    That is Poland right now.

    For the majority of their journey to the EU, they were lead by relatively leftist and relatively russophile people..not the morons of now and the last decade+

    To be honest, given the consistently higher birthrates in Western Ukraine, Euromaidan (or something like it) was probably inevitable

    Total nonsense. Is Russia being taken over by Kavkaz? These aren’t particularly high birth rates there in western Ukraine…..and owe more to the fact that it is simply a much less developed area of the country, less urbanised and poorer…..and much less populated.

  22. @Jon0815

    pro-EU position is greatly over-represented among Ukrainian presidential candidates (perhaps due to it being over-represented among the oligarchs?).

    That’s the immediate reason. But quite a few Ukrainian oligarchs, including those who financed Maidan, realized that it was a flop and seriously damaged not only the country (which they don’t give a hoot about), but their own pockets. There are other reasons. One, some political parties in Ukraine are simply banned, and therefore did not have candidates in these “elections”. Two, even by official numbers at least a third of the population refused to participate in this farce: voter participation was just a tad over 60%. Three, several million Ukrainians working in Russia were denied their right to vote. The field was far from level, and will be until a significant fraction of the population comes back to its senses. And I don’t mean joining Russia. Too many Ukrainians expect somebody else to solve their problems, some pinning their hopes on the US/EU, some on Russia. They must realize that they will have to solve their problems themselves. Until that time the country is going to remain in deep shit.

    • Agree: Mikhail
  23. Beckow says:
    @AnonFromTN

    …the quality of the people who bought into an obvious lie

    They live on hope. Hope is the worst thing in the world, that’s what you have when you have nothing else…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  24. @Beckow

    Hopes could be reasonable and unreasonable. I hope that the sun will rise tomorrow, and that’s a reasonable hope. Now, if I hoped that I win a few million in lottery soon, that would be an unreasonable hope. If I acted based on the first hope (I do so, setting my alarm), that would be prudent and justified. If I acted based on the second hope, I’d be either mad, or a fool.

  25. neutral says:

    I forgot to ask, is Zelensky a jew?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @reiner Tor
  26. Beckow says:
    @Jon0815

    Pro-EU, pro-globalism, pro-LBGT, anti-nationalism, etc… those are consensus Western elite positions. Aspiring elites in other countries will naturally embrace them – if they plan to stay in the elite.

    My issue is that pro-EU/pro-Russia are false choices. They are not available the way elites try to present them. They also can’t be mutually exclusive in the long run – it is a dichotomy that the elites forced on Ukraine.

    A better survey question would be how many people absolutely oppose either EU or Russia, to the point of having an open conflict or even a war. I suspect that in both cases the number would be in single digits. Why is then Kiev acting as if it is who-whom, winner take all? That is madness. I still think it is driven by the irrational failed dream among some in the elite of pushing Russia out of Crimea and moving NATO there. It was such a great goal, so bold, so daring, and if it had worked it would be right up there with 1991 as a crowning achievement. Well, it didn’t work – and the bitterness will last for generations, on both sides.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  27. @neutral

    Of course, he is. That’s Ukraine after 2014 – very loud nationalistic propaganda and very few Ukrainians in positions of influence.

  28. @neutral

    According to Wikipedia:

    “Zelensky was born 25 January 1978 in Kryvyi Rih, Ukrainian SSR (now Ukraine) to Jewish parents.[6][7][8][9][10]”

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  29. Mitleser says:
    @reiner Tor

    Little Russians confirmed biggest Philosemites of Europe?

    First they get a Jewish head of government, then a plurality votes for a Jewish-backed Jew as president.


    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russians-are-the-philosemites-of-eastern-europe/

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @Dmitry
  30. Aedib says:

    There is an undeniable innovation on the election: This is a usual Ukrainian exchange of oligarchic ruling clans but Kolomoysky will rule the country via his puppet. And this opens the window for unexpected events. Even the Jew Bershidsky in his Bloomberg article acknowledges this. It seems also that the star of Princess Yulia is irreversibly fading.
    Also an interesting quation: Will Kolomoysky (figuratively) slit Porky?

  31. Do it fagt.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  32. Made $16 making a symbolic bet vs. Tymoshenko.

  33. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    Nothing distinguishes Ukraine from Tunisia

    Look at a map? One of the two countries is kind of closer to Russia, a perennial target of neocons who drive US foreign policy. Also, Ukraine is going to have a Jewish president in a month, something’s not possible in Tunisia.

  34. @Anatoly Karlin

    What do you think would be the best outcome for Russia?

    A) Zelensky wins
    B) Poroshenko wins
    C) Poroshenko annuls the election and becomes dictator

    I guess C.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Beckow
    , @Jon0815
    , @inertial
  35. neutral says:

    What do you think would be the best outcome for Russia?

    One should ask what is best for Ukraine? And I am talking long term best, the next 50, 100, 200 years. What it absolutely does not need is cucking to America, it will be mean that whites there will be doomed. Perhaps the best for it now is for Yanukovych become president again.

  36. Dmitry says:

    Don’t forget the oligarch part of the story.

    Zelensky is employee for years of, and now promoted by, 1+1, which is Kolomoisky’s television channel.

    Kolomoisky and Poroshenko have been at war against each other since 2015.

    Kiev was also able to nationalize Kolomoisky’s bank (PrivatBank), although reportedly Kolomoisky was able to move a lot of money out of the bank, into some oversea account, just before it was nationalized.

    Kolomoisky’s motive now of course is just remove Poroshenko.

    Success of Zelensky, then looks like some kind of genius result of Kolomoisky. However, more likely there is just opportunism. Zelensky was popular for years before he ever was near politics.

    It’s good to remember almost all the oligarchs were a lot richer before Euromaidan. They were more successful, when Yanukovich was still President.

    Yanukovich was obviously quite problematic for oligarchs, however, as he was like an old fashioned gangster, who demanded money from them and used to enter offices, and start arresting employees, of oligarchs which were not friendly to him.

  37. Dmitry says:
    @Mitleser

    Ukraine is more pro-Israel. While Russian government is more philosemitic (pro-Jewish religion), on the state level.

    In Russian federal media, they invite rabbis on to explain about every Jewish religious holiday. While Ukrainian media, you can see more anti-Jewish content (independently of their other political radicalization).

    Also it is widely known Ukraine has a lot of antisemitism, including in USSR times. This is independent of their recent rehabilitation of Nazi collaborators.

    However, pro-Israel is something different. Russia is not so pro-Israel. While Ukraine has the second highest number of tourists per capita to Israel, of any country in the world, after Lithuania.

    Part of the high antisemitism in Ukraine, could be because there’s a lot more Jews per capita in Ukraine than in Russia, even if the total number is higher in Russia. Although there are historically quite highly Jewish areas in the USSR, like Siberia and the Far East, where you can read Jews say there was very little antisemitism (So probably the high antisemitism quite endogenous to Ukraine) .

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  38. Denis says:
    @reiner Tor

    Alternatively, Poroshenko could steal the election really blatantly, achieving a similar result as C.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  39. Dmitry says:
    @Beckow

    My issue is that pro-EU/pro-Russia are false choices. They are not available the way elites try to present them. They also can’t be mutually exclusive in the long run – it is a dichotomy that the elites forced on Ukraine.

    It’s a very good point.

    You can see this simply in old discussion of “customs union” led by Russia (this was before the concept became more ambitious).

    Then the politicians and media was saying that Ukraine had to choose between free-trade zone with the Customs Union , or free-trade zone with EU.

    Yet at the same time, were some countries like Turkey, South Africa, Japan and Israel who did not have this choice forced to them, but already have free trade with EU, and are planning free trade zone with Eurasian Economic Union.

    Also note, Japan is beginning its trade agreement with the EU this year. And I’m not sure there is any statement (unlike with Ukraine), that this will prevent it eventually entering free-trade zone with Eurasian Economic Union.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  40. @Denis

    It almost certainly won’t work.

    Electoral fraud is easiest when the incumbent already has a dominating advantage, because the bureaucrats who run the Central Electoral Commissions and the teachers/government workers manning the counting booths are not going to stick their necks out for people who appear they might lose (e.g. Poroshenko).

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @AP
  41. Anon[438] • Disclaimer says:
    @Matt Forney

    Zakarpattia was not part of Hungary. Hungary was not a country until 100 years ago. Hungary was a subdivision of Austria, and Turkey before that. When Hungary eventually became a country, Zakarpattia ended up in Czechoslovakia.

    Also, I can’t understand the Hungary fanboi. Hungary was the most retarded region of Austria. Anything Austrians built there, and could be described as noteworthy, has a counterpart, 100 times better, in Czechia or Slovenia. (And of course, Austria.) Anything Turks built there has an equivalent, 100 times more impressive, in Bulgaria. (Not to mention Turkey.) Russians and Jews essentially left nothing. What gives?

  42. @Dmitry

    Antisemitism in Ukraine is traditional, going back centuries. The best known example internationally is Koliyivshchyna (1768), a rebellion of Cossacks and Ukrainian peasants against Polish rule, which resulted in mass anti-Jewish and anti-Polish pogroms (whitewashed in Shevchenko poem “Haidamaky”). In view of that, it looks comic when self-proclaimed Ukrainian “patriots” after 2014 placed Jews, Armenians, Georgians, and other non-Ukrainians into virtually all positions of power. The speaker of Rada (Ukrainian parliament) Parubiy is one of very few Ukrainians with ostensible power in post-Maidan Ukraine. He was diagnosed with mild mental retardation in his school years. Goes well with his political leanings.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AP
  43. Epigon says:
    @Anon

    You’re an ignorant fool.
    Habsburgs were crowned as kings of Hungary on separate occasions historically.
    More importantly, Hungarians conquered the area in early medieval period, and even expanded to Galicia in 13th century.

    Talking about more recent history, in 1867 Austro-Hungary came into existence, and the Hungarian part functioned practically as a state inside a federation.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Anon
  44. Beckow says:
    @Epigon

    We can all pick our favourite event from the Habsburg Empire history to prove almost anything. E.g. Habsburgs were also crowned as Czech kings in Prague, would that make Czechs ‘independent‘? Hungary was occupied by Turks for almost 300 years and Budapest was an Ottoman city. The early medieval Hungary was not a Magyar ethnic state, it was the usual feudal multi-ethnic melange of German-French aristocrats and royal families, multi-cultural nobility (pastoral Turkish groups were particularly well represented) and peasants of a dozen different nationalities.

    1867 dual monarchy gave Hungary an autonomy, but it was still in every security-foreign respect a fully Habsburg controlled territory. They could run their own schools, they insisted on a Magyar monoculture, and that – more than anything else – destroyed the Habsburg Empire.

    Zakarpathia as a territorial unit was a part of Czechoslovakia until 1945 when it was absorbed to a fast expanding (under Stalin) Ukraine. Most people in Zakarpathia were probably by far happiest as part of a much more advanced and richer Czechoslovakia. Some preferred Hungary, but Magyars are only 15% of Zakarpathia so that seems upside-down. That doesn’t explain their seeming electoral aversion to Ukrainian nationalists.

  45. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Maria Gaidar was the most bizarre.

    First they gave her Ukrainian citizenship, then they made her remove her Russian citizenship for her job with the Saakashvili team in Odessa.

    So now she just has a Ukrainian citizenship – but then Saakashvili team has resigned, and Maria Gaidar says she is some kind of advisor to Poroshenko,

    Apparently Maria Gaidar is now lost in obscurity, abandoned all her social media last year, and bought a house in a village outside Odessa.

    Her last Instagram was updated in 2017:
    https://www.instagram.com/maria.gaidar/

    No updates on Facebook for more than 1 year as well.
    https://www.facebook.com/gaidarmaria

    So it’s generally a mystery what she is doing…

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
  46. Denis says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    You’re probably right, I’m just throwing things out there, but there is a precedent for this in Ukraine, isn’t there? The 2004 elections for example. Granted, the 2 leading contestants had much closer results (basically dead heat) in the first round of the 2004 elections than Zelensky and Poroshenko did in this one, but I still wouldn’t put it past Poroshenko to try fraud, even if it’s unlikely to work. I’d also think that he’d prefer to rig the election rather than just cancel it, though reiner tor probably wasn’t being too serious with that suggestion.

    If Poroshenko were to win the second round, I’d bet that there was some fraud involved.

  47. @Dmitry

    reminds me of some “Snatch” classics:
    Bessarabian Brick Top: You’re always gonna have problems lifting a body in one piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six pieces and pile it all together.
    Maria Gaidar: Would someone mind telling me, who are you?
    Bessarabian Brick Top: And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it’s no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies’ digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don’t want to go sievin’ through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, “as greedy as a pig.”

  48. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Beckow

    Why were various Eastern European countries (even Bulgaria and Romania) previously admitted into the EU, though?

    Also, one would think that European nationalists would support Ukraine’s EU accession if it will ever clean up its act in regards to corruption due to the fact that this would mean much more White people inside of the EU.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  49. TG says:

    “his chances of success – transforming the Ukraine from an oligarchy into a “normal” country – don’t appear to be bright.”

    But aren’t “normal” countries pretty much all oligarchies? I mean, the United States sure is. When did the popular vote ever last have any real effect on fundamental policy?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Jon0815
  50. Beckow says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    …Why were various Eastern European countries (even Bulgaria and Romania) previously admitted into the EU?

    First of they were smaller, closer geographically (you can’t really have a EU if Prague or Budapest are not in it). But the most important factor was timing: they all joined during the massive optimistic wave of the late 90’s to 2010. EU was richer then.

    The subsidy game is very different now, with all the poorer eastern countries joining there are more takers and fewer givers. Once UK is gone (a huge giver), it will get worse. The aid-receiving countries (looking at you, Poland) have zero incentive to bring in a large, poor country like Ukraine that would displace them as a primary aid recipient.

    Many in EU also think that allowing Romania-Bulgaria was a mistake, a costly one. They are not allowed in the Schengen free travel zone even today. I don’t see how Ukraine would overcome the combined resistance of aid givers and receivers who primarily look out for their own interests. Ukraine is just too big and too poor.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  51. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    C) is unlikely. The best result for Russia is mayhem and chaos all over Ukraine. And also further West, the Atlantic crowd is not paranoid when they claim that – but it is ALWAYS that way, so screaming about it is very childish. Divide at impera! Always.

    If Porky and Zelinsky were 50-50 and comedians would start rioting in Kiev, that would be something for Russia. Either one winning decisively, not that good. In any case I just checked and both Donetsk and Lugansk regions voted for Boiko, with Porky doing particularly badly there. How does that square with the West claiming that Porky is ‘liberating the east from Moscow invaders’?

  52. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    Grytsenko this morning…..” I will not , in any circumstances, support or vote for Petro Poroshenko as President”
    ……. “I won’t say if my supporters should or should not vote for Zelensky”

    He is a pro-army statist whose voters are mostly in Galicia (where Poroshenko did best) but wouldn’t vote for Poroshenko in the first round due to corruption but who wanted a nationalistic candidate with relevant experience. Poroshenko will probably get 80% of Hrytsenko’s votes in the next round.

    He will probably also get most of Smeshko’s votes.

  53. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Not you, but some of Ukraine’s Russian “well-wishers” were sure that Poroshenko would cancel elections after he declared martial law, then they thought he would fake-win the first round, now he’s gonna cancel the second round or cheat his way to victory.

    Or maybe, he is actually being democratic, with mere low level shenanigans typical of any democracy (is denying expats in Russia the vote in Russia any worse than gerrymandering in the USA) that will give him a couple % advantage at most.

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Gerard2
  54. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I agree, it cost him dearly. Meanwhile, some people from central Ukraine (Hrytsenko supporters) posted this:

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  55. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Look, if he would have only gone after one big fish, and maybe 2 -3 smaller ones, he could have made a case that he was fighting corruption – but he really did nothing at all. The cartoon is accurate – Zelinsky does seem to be Kolomoisky’s ass, and Ukraine deserves much better. With Kolomoisky adopting Zelensky as his ‘clown’ instead of Tymoshenko, perhaps she could shift her support to Poroshenko? I’ve never heard of any real hardcore hate between the two? I’m thinking that with Tymoshenko in 3rd place, she could end up being the ‘kingmaker’ in this race….

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  56. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Koliyivshchyna (1768), a rebellion of Cossacks and Ukrainian peasants against Polish rule, which resulted in mass anti-Jewish and anti-Polish pogroms (whitewashed in Shevchenko poem “Haidamaky”)

    It featured a guy murdering his own children because they were half-Polish. How was that whitewashing?

  57. @Anon

    Not sure if trolling or stupid … ( or simply an American ) .

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  58. @Dmitry

    I wouldn’t shed any tears for Maria Gaidar. There is enough shit in Russia without her. It would be better for Russia to export all of it to Ukraine, but only a few left. Too bad.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  59. Anon[195] • Disclaimer says:
    @Epigon

    So what you are saying is that, in Zappa’s words, Austrian “Hungary” had its own airline and its own beer? Who cared if, starting with 1867, a bunch of autists pretended to run “Hungary”? (Also, congrats on pushing that number up by 50 years. That is guaranteed to wipe the centuries of Turkish rule.)

    For example, the Budapest autists claimed to enforce Hungarian language in schools, but did not provide schools for 80% of the people in “Hungary”. Even in the Hungarian-speaking plurality, more than 50% were illiterate.

    Another example: Budapest autists wanted to separate “Hungarian” regiments. Franz Joseph offered them a re-branding. From 1905, the army would be renamed, from “Imperial Army”, to “Imperial-Royal Army”.

    Tbh, Hungary is more gay than Ukraine. At least Ukrainians speak languages similar to their rulers, and may get to some positions of power in those empires (see Khrushchev). But when was a Hungarian Sultan or Emperor? Hungary is almost always, in its history, a border county in someone else’s empire. “The Hungary”, lol.

  60. Denis says:
    @AP

    …but some of Ukraine’s Russian “well-wishers” were sure that Poroshenko would cancel elections after he declared martial law, then they thought he would fake-win the first round, now he’s gonna cancel the second round or cheat his way to victory.

    Well, is that kind of cynicism really so unwarranted in this situation? Of the 2 remaining contestants, the incumbent is perceived as being rather corrupt, or at least soft on corruption, and was trailing in the polls. His declaration of martial law so close to the election didn’t look entirely innocent in light of that. Meanwhile, Zelensky is seen as being in the pocket of a criminal oligarch. With these 2 competing for the presidency, it will honestly be rather surprising if the elections turn out to be relatively clean.

    • Replies: @AP
  61. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Beckow

    Why did the EU also agree to take in the Balkan countries and Turkey, though? Some of the Balkan countries are very poor just like Ukraine is and Turkey, while being relatively well-off, is overwhelmingly Muslim.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Adrian E.
  62. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Beckow

    Zakarpathia as a territorial unit was a part of Czechoslovakia until 1945 when it was absorbed to a fast expanding (under Stalin) Ukraine. Most people in Zakarpathia were probably by far happiest as part of a much more advanced and richer Czechoslovakia. Some preferred Hungary, but Magyars are only 15% of Zakarpathia so that seems upside-down. That doesn’t explain their seeming electoral aversion to Ukrainian nationalists.

    The people in Subcarpathian Ruthenia would have overwhelmingly become Hungarians (Magyars) had the Magyarization program continued up to the present-day and had the CPs won WWI, no?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Anon
  63. @Mr. XYZ

    Why did the EU also agree to take in the Balkan countries and Turkey, though?

    Did the EU take Turkey? Tell it to the Turks, they would be surprised no end.

  64. AP says:
    @Denis

    Well, is that kind of cynicism really so unwarranted in this situation?

    Yes, although in the alternative reality that Maidan was a manufactured oligarch project (or better, merely an American plot to take away Crimea that America was so desperate to get lol) it might make some sense.

    With these 2 competing for the presidency, it will honestly be rather surprising if the elections turn out to be relatively clean

    I’m sure it will not be a very clean election, Ukraine isn’t Switzerland, there will be things for the Russian media to magnify, but it will not be a fake election.

  65. Beckow says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    …Ruthenia would have overwhelmingly become Hungarians (Magyars) had the Magyarization program continued

    No way to know. By 1910 the Magyarization was running out of steam and generating substantial opposition. Ruthenians had a sense of identity and a separate religion (Orthodoxy). Magyar language is also very hard. The early successes of Magyarization were based on people who were pursuing careers and government jobs.

    It was also at the beginnings of mass education and that triggered a strong sense of Ruthenian national identity. If Magyars stayed in charge after 1918 there would be huge resistance and eventually some sort of compromise would be reached. What really hurt the Ruthenian identity was to become part of countries where people were like them – similar language, culture, etc… so they became Ukrainian, Polish or Slovak. It was a much more natural process than with the Hungarians.

    • Replies: @AP
  66. Well look at that. Ukraine is going to get another Jewish leader.

    How interesting. Either a Jewish comedian, or a crypto-Jew whose Jewish identity was exposed by Forward magazine.

    And to think that Victoria Nuland (Jewish) was caught telling a Jewish EU apparatchik that ‘Yats’ (Jewish) was going to be the next leader of Ukraine.

    I’m sure it is all a coincidence that a group representing less than 1% of the population keeps popping up in power.

    • Replies: @AP
  67. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Zelinsky does seem to be Kolomoisky’s ass, and Ukraine deserves much better. With Kolomoisky adopting Zelensky as his ‘clown’ instead of Tymoshenko, perhaps she could shift her support to Poroshenko?

    It has been said that Tymoshenko is more likely to go with Zelensky.

    On the Kolomoisky’s ass characterization, I’m reminded of Putin being KGB (Khodorkovsky, Gusinsky and Berezovsky) supported/approved in the beginning of his presidential role. Putin was able to change that situation for (in overall terms) the better.

    I’m sure that the political novice Zelensky can do such with Kolomoisky, which leads to this video on the outcome of the preliminary round of the 2019 Ukrainian presidential election.

    http://theduran.com/ukraine-elections-the-chocolate-king-the-gas-princess-and-the-comedian-video/

    I was half asleep when listening to this video. Without checking back, if I’m not mistaken, it’s suggested that Kolomoisky has a business interest for improved Russian-Ukrainian relations. Not noted (if I correctly recall) is his support for some of the Ukrainian far right.

    Medvedchuk’s take:

    https://www.rt.com/shows/worlds-apart-oksana-boyko/454959-medvedchuk-ukrainian-presidential-elections/

  68. Medvedev says:

    Ukraine is a huge Potemkin village. Number of registered voters has remained almost constant in the past 10 years. At the same time Ukraine was losing 150-200k every year due to natural decrease, lost Crimea (2.4 million people), part of Donbass region (3-3.5 mln) and several million people due to high levels of emigration.

    Just a few months ago Poroshenko had 5-6% support, barely half of what Tymoshenko had. But in the past 2 months he managed to get ahead by a slim 2 percent margin. My bet that he will try to do the same trick with Zelenskyi … the gap might be too high to close in such a short term (until April 21st).

  69. @TG

    Yes, but the US isn’t captured by its oligarchs (who are far more ethical, competent, patriotic, and civilized than their FSU counterparts, vast majority of whom are ultimately just thieves) to the same extent as in the Ukraine. It’s a place where the Russian 1990s never really ended.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Anon
    , @Dmitry
  70. Jon0815 says:
    @reiner Tor

    What do you think would be the best outcome for Russia?

    A) Zelensky wins
    B) Poroshenko wins
    C) Poroshenko annuls the election and becomes dictator

    D) Contested outcome in which Poroshenko nominally wins by tiny margin, then Zelensky triumphs in Maidan 2.0, then Poroshenko-supporting Galicia does reverse Donbass and leaves Ukraine.

    In terms of what is realistic, I suppose B (I don’t think it would be possible for Poroshenko to do C).

    But if you assume that Zelensky will also fail to significantly reduce corruption and generate strong economic growth (likely), then the answer might be A, since the failure of two consecutive pro-Western presidents will discredit Western orientation, more than the failure of a single pro-Western president.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  71. @Jon0815

    I don’t think it would be possible for Poroshenko to do C

    Me neither, I merely responded to the comment “Do it fagt.” quoting the Poroshenko tweet “We will not give a single chance to the puppet of Kolomoyskyi”

    Karlin would love it if Ukraine became an outright Egypt-tier dictatorship.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Jon0815
  72. Epigon says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Yes, but the US isn’t captured by its oligarchs (who are far more ethical, competent, patriotic, and civilized than their FSU counterparts, vast majority of whom are ultimately just thieves)

    Debatable, looking at the current status and the future of USA.

    Really, the global leadership position in everything the USA found itself post-WW2 was squandered away for private profit and special interests.

    Also, when there is plenty of power, influence and material wealth to distribute among power brokers, things run much more smoothly – especially when we are talking about entrenched elites and actual oligarch and political dynasties, as is the case in USA.

    Ukraine simply has much fewer spoilts to loot and fewer servants to exploit, so the fight is dirtier and more desperate.

  73. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Ruthenians had a sense of identity and a separate religion (Orthodoxy).

    No, most Ruthenians were Greek Catholic at that time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Uzhhorod

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ruthenian-Catholic-Church

    They became Orthodox under Soviets.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  74. AP says:
    @jbwilson24

    crypto-Jew whose Jewish identity was exposed by Forward magazine.

    In your world Obama must also have been a crypto-Jew.

    ‘Yats’ (Jewish)

    He is a Greek Catholic.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  75. Epigon says:
    @reiner Tor

    Karlin would love it if Ukraine became an outright Egypt-tier dictatorship.

    That would actually be an improvement, and an exercise in sovereignity compared to current status of Ukraine.
    Egypt would be a total failed state, impoverished and dysfunctional, yet it currently achieves more with far less human capital, worse position and less natural resources than Ukraine.

    • Agree: melanf
  76. Epigon says:
    @AP

    Greek Catholics are neither Greek, nor Catholic (in the true meaning of the word – all-embracing).

    Also, they are much closer lithurgically to Orthodox Catholics than Roman Catholics.

    All in all, a religion of turncoats and opportunists who bowed to their invaders, and often would only represent a temporary religion – their descendants would often be Roman Catholics.

    As can be expected, Uniats/”Greek Catholics” have historically been most present in former Byzantine areas of Italy, among Albanians, Serbs under Habsburg/Venetian rule, and Rus(sians) under Polish Jesuit terror.
    Probably the best numbers to study are the fluctuations in number – a parish of Orthodox Serbs become Uniats, only for their children and grandchildren to become Roman Catholics so the number drops significantly. Then, another area, then another…. That is the way “Little Rascia” (census data and documents, correspondence talk only of Raci/Rascians) of 16/17th century in present-day Slavonia became Croat Catholic under Habsburgs.

    Cue Ukrainian Roman Catholics and Greek Catholics coming into existence in 19th century.

    • Replies: @AP
  77. AP says:
    @Beckow

    The early medieval Hungary was not a Magyar ethnic state, it was the usual feudal multi-ethnic melange of German-French aristocrats and royal families, multi-cultural nobility (pastoral Turkish groups were particularly well represented) and peasants of a dozen different nationalities.

    Until the mid 19th century the only people speaking Hungarian in Hungary were peasants (in Bohemia, only peasants spoke Slavic – city-dwellers spoke German and nobles spoke French and looked down upon both the German and Czech languages). At that time fervently nationalistic German-speaking Hungarians taught themselves and their children the Hungarian language.

    Its interesting that only under the Hapsburgs (due to policy) and Romanovs (due to policy in the Baltic, neglect in Ukraine) did these rural languages survive in mass form. Gaelic disappeared n Britain, France lost its languages, Sorbian or whatever are basically gone in Germany. If the Hapsburgs were like Western rulers, Czechs and Hungarians might at most have been German-speaking, like English-speaking Irish nationalists. Or they might have simply become Germans of Czech or whatever descent, as utu stated.

    That doesn’t explain their seeming electoral aversion to Ukrainian nationalists.

    Here we go again. Zakarpattiya’s eastern Slavs are no more averse to Ukrainian nationalists than are places like Zhytomir or Poltava. They is not nearly as extreme as Galicians on the other side of the Carpathians but they are in the nationalist camp. With respect to nationalism they are like central Ukrainians but in the far west.

    Wikipedia has a nice map of election results (Green Zelensky, Grey Poroshenko, Red Tymoshenko, Blue Boyko):

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @reiner Tor
  78. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Also, they are much closer lithurgically to Orthodox Catholics than Roman Catholics.

    Correct. They are practically identical.

    All in all, a religion of turncoats and opportunists who bowed to their invaders,

    This can be said of all Christian Slavs who were forced from their pagan faiths at the point of swords. So?

    and often would only represent a temporary religion – their descendants would often be Roman Catholics.

    Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine became stable under the Hapsburgs and was not a bridge to Roman Catholicism. Greek Catholics even (to their shame) engaged in mass murder of Roman Catholics just as Orthodox have done.

    and Rus(sians) under Polish Jesuit terror.

    Orthodox slaughtered more Catholics and Uniates than vice versa during those conflicts.

    Orthodox Serbs become Uniats, only for their children and grandchildren to become Roman Catholics so the number drops significantly. Then, another area, then another…. That is the way “Little Rascia” (census data and documents, correspondence talk only of Raci/Rascians) of 16/17th century in present-day Slavonia became Croat Catholic under Habsburgs.

    Okay, so your attitude boils down to being an anti-Croat thing by an Orthodox Southern “Slav.”

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Mikhail
  79. Epigon says:
    @AP

    This can be said of all Christian Slavs who were forced from their pagan faiths at the point of swords. So?

    Not really. National Orthodox Churches are a stark contrast to Roman Catholicism, Universalism and Papal Primacy.
    Each Orthodox Church is unique and adapted to locals, because it is formed by locals, for locals.
    Also, which Slavs were forced from their pagan faiths at the point of swords? Cyril and Methodius, Byzantine monks weren’t a mirror image of Frankish sword and torch “proselytizing”. The Glagolitic and Cyrillic script were created for Slavic languages.

    Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine became stable under the Hapsburgs and was not a bridge to Roman Catholicism. Greek Catholics even (to their shame) engaged in mass murder of Roman Catholics just as Orthodox have done.

    Because Ukrainians and Greek Catholics became a useful tool to counter Poles in Galicia. Clever.
    I was writing about Polish period, when it was clearly a one-way street. I guess that many Poles in Ruthenia/Rus’ were actually descendants of Uniat Ruthenian ancestors who assimilated and converted as time went on.

    Orthodox slaughtered more Catholics and Uniates than vice versa during those conflicts.

    This is an unsubstianted claim. Besides, by the late 17th century, there was not a single Rus Orthodox Church or monastery operating in PLC lands. Inquisition and persecution was that systematic.

    Okay, so your attitude boils down to being an anti-Croat thing by an Orthodox Southern “Slav.”

    If I am anti-something because I quote Habsburg and Hungarian documents, then so be it. I am a proponent of sticking to the truth and primary documents no matter the current climate and PC regime. This includes writing about my own people, history and state.

    • Agree: Mikhail, Denis
    • Replies: @AP
  80. Anon[491] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Nah, no oligarchy in US. Trump, McCain, Romney are self-made men. And Bezos or the kibutzoid leadership at Google don’t make money by fleecing the state for ‘IT services’, ‘war robots’, and ‘modern genomics’. (Adding to the equally indispensable war planes.) Classic Karlin Americanophilia.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  81. Anon[491] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    I take it that you ran out of cherry-picked acts, so you are going further build your argument on counterfactuals. Can you discuss the outlook of Zakarpathia, after the intelligent and well-educated Hungarian nation will start CRISPRing their blockchains? What if they had IoT in 1919? What if The Hungary weren’t run by (((Kun))) at the time when their Christians were already a hated species?

  82. AP says:
    @Epigon

    This can be said of all Christian Slavs who were forced from their pagan faiths at the point of swords. So?

    “Not really”

    So Scandinavian overlords didn’t force the Slavs whom they owned to throw their idols into the rivers and accept Christianity?

    National Orthodox Churches are a stark contrast to Roman Catholicism, Universalism and Papal Primacy.
    Each Orthodox Church is unique.

    Yes, they flirt with idolatry of nationalism and heresy of phyletism.

    Also, which Slavs were forced from their pagan faiths at the point of swords? Cyrillus and Methodius, Byzantine monks weren’t a mirror image of Frankish sword and torch “proselytizing”.

    The ones in Russia and Ukraine. Even in Bulgaria it was not a peaceful and voluntary process. There was military pressure from East and West and the ruler forced the new faith upon the people:

    Wiki:

    As Byzantine missions converted the Bulgarians, their forces encouraged the people to destroy the Pagan holy places. Conservative Bulgarian aristocratic circles opposed such destruction, as they had led the spiritual rituals. In 865, malcontents from all ten administrative regions (komitats) revolted against Prince Boris, accusing him of giving them “a bad law”. The rebels moved toward the capital, intending to capture and kill the Knyaz and to restore the old religion.

    All that is known is that Prince Boris gathered people loyal to him and suppressed the revolt. He ordered the execution of 52[3] boyars who were leaders in the revolt, “along with their whole families”. The common folk who “wished to do penance” were allowed to go without harm.

    Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine became stable under the Hapsburgs and was not a bridge to Roman Catholicism. Greek Catholics even (to their shame) engaged in mass murder of Roman Catholics just as Orthodox have done.

    Because Ukrainians and Greek Catholics became a useful tool to counter Poles in Galicia. Clever.

    Correct. Which doesn’t change what I stated.

    I was writing about Polish period, when it was clearly a one-way street. I guess that many of “Poles” in Ruthenia/Rus’ were actually descendants of Uniat Ruthenian ancestors who assimilated and converted as time went on.

    Probably most were. It was an internal conflict between Rus people.

    “Orthodox slaughtered more Catholics and Uniates than vice versa during those conflicts.”

    This is an unsubstianted claim. Besides, by the late 17th century, there was not a single Rus Orthodox Church or monastery operating in PLC lands. Inquisition and persecution was that systematic.

    Khmelytsky’s slaughters were not equalled by the other side.

    By the late 17th century Galicia was still Orthodox. It officially switched over in 1700 or 1708. This process was the decision of the local Church hierarchs and did not involve mass arrests, slaughter etc.

    The reason there eventually was not a single Rus Orthodox Church operating was because they had all become Greek Catholics and because the relationship had become spoiled by the mass slaughter of Catholics and Uniates by Orthodox in the mid 17th century, not because of some Inquisition. There may have been individual dissenters but there was no mass persecution nor mass arrests and slaughters of people in order to create the conversion, other than the mutual slaughter (initiated by the Orthodox) during the rebellion.

  83. @Anon

    … don’t make money by fleecing the state for ‘IT services’, ‘war robots’, and ‘modern genomics’. (Adding to the equally indispensable war planes.)

    This beats spending money on yachts and foreign football clubs.

    • Replies: @Anon
  84. Epigon says:

    So Scandinavian overlords didn’t force the Slavs whom they owned to throw their idols into the rivers and accept Christianity?

    Scandinavian overlords spoke and wrote Slavic.
    Only “Scandinavians” can build boats and live as traders and warriors, selling Slavs whom they conquered.

    Cool story.
    Bad history.

    As has been demonstrably proven, Rujani terrorised Danes, Osselians terrorised Swedes. Jomsvikings – mostly Slavic.
    Starigrad of Wagrians – Novgorod.
    You can’t disprove this. Claiming some genetic link of Rurikids with present-day Swedes is bogus.

    Yes, they flirt with idolatry of nationalism and heresy of phyletism.

    You do realise that the worst heresy there can be is the institution of Latin as a universal language – people literally didn’t understand a thing of the religion they were following – it went so far that at some point only nobility and clergy were allowed to have Holy Bible in Catholic realms.
    Apostles suddenly spoke all languages, Peter states that religion should be in language of the people.

    Regarding phyletism – Ecumenical Patriarch, a Fanar Ottoman subservient dog, warns against Balkan anti-Ottoman separatist Churches.

    Roman Catholic Church added dogmas well into 20th century, trampled upon Bible and Ecumenical Councils and is nothing but a tool of Frankish Imperial usurpation gone rogue – forgery after forgery, heresy after heresy, forced conversion of Christians, violent proselytizing etc.

    The ones in Russia and Ukraine. Even in Bulgaria it was not a peaceful and voluntary process. There was military pressure from East and West and the ruler forced the new faith upon the people:

    Bulgarians were not Slavs – the elite of Bulgarians back then most definitely wasn’t. The Slavs they assimilated in Thrace and Macedonia were Christian already.

    The reason there eventually was not a single Rus Orthodox Church operating was because they had all become Greek Catholics and because the relationship had become spoiled by the mass slaughter of Catholics and Uniates by Orthodox in the mid 17th century, not because of some Inquisition. There may have been individual dissenters but there was no mass persecution nor mass arrests and slaughters of people in order to create the conversion, other than the mutual slaughter (initiated by the Orthodox) during the rebellion.

    The relations went south much earlier. In your opinion, what would make the Orthodox commit such mass violence and atrocities?
    Could it have anything to do with the work of Inquisitors like SAINT Josaphat?
    Or that nice letter that Sapieha sent to the king to complain about persecution of Orthodox and cruelty of Inquisition?

    • Replies: @AP
  85. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    At least FSU oligarchs are politically simple people, though, without the security or ambitions of Western counterparts.

    FSU oligarchs only want to secure their business and properties from their rivals and state, or alternately to act as an extension of state capacity themselves. And then spend the money as far away as possible, from the workers who generated it.

    For this latter, e.g. Rotenberg is attaining state contracts, so operates effectively as an extension of state capacity – although with the disadvantage that the process is nationalizing losses and privatizing profits for himself.

    Main problem of FSU oligarchs, is that they are often extremely polluting to the environment, and the salaries they pay (to often captive workforce) incredibly low.

    And then whole cities can be slaves making money for different groups of oligarchs.

    Norilsk economy, for example, is basically only people freezing their ass and breathing toxic pollution, to make profits for Potanin and Deripaska.

    Actually, FSU oligarchs are much more like Monty Burns than American counterparts.

    Working for Bill Gates in America, will not destroy your health. But some few FSU oligarchs, can physically turn the sky of Krasnoyarsk black.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  86. melanf says:

    Poroshenko’s agitation in Kharkiv

    “Little Russian vote for Julia and she will give you a pussy. Vote for Zelensky and he’ll give you his dick”

  87. AP says:
    @Epigon

    So Scandinavian overlords didn’t force the Slavs whom they owned to throw their idols into the rivers and accept Christianity?

    Scandinavian overlords spoke and wrote Slavic.

    And Norse, certainly in the 10th century. Valdimir/Valdamarr or Kiev who forced Christianity upon the Slavs lived in exile in Norway under the protection of his kinsman Haakon Sigurdsson and returned to Rus, seizing power using Norse warriors.

    Claiming some genetic link of Rurikids with present-day Swedes is bogus.

    Because science bad. Nationalist mythologies good.

    the worst heresy there can be is the institution of Latin as a universal language – people literally didn’t understand a thing of the religion they were following

    For similar reasons do you oppose the use of Church Slavonic?

    The relations went south much earlier. In your opinion, what would make the Orthodox commit such mass violence and atrocities?

    Demoralization caused by the rebellion that involved Tatar allies of the Orthodox raiding Orthodox villages and carrying off slaves as the price of their alliance. BTW, Orthodox rebels also looted and destroyed Orthodox monasteries. Does that prove persecution of Orthodox by Orthodox or maybe the rebellion wasn’t simply about religion.

    There was no justification for mass slaughter of Poles in Volhynia either, do you think that had a good reason also?

    Could it have anything to do with the work of Inquisitors like SAINT Josaphat?

    Even the Russians are not as extreme as your interpretation:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%91%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_(1618)

    • Replies: @melanf
  88. melanf says:
    @AP

    Valdimir/Valdamarr or Kiev who forced Christianity upon the Slavs lived in exile in Norway under the protection of his kinsman Haakon Sigurdsson

    You only explain that you are telling the events from the history of the imaginary world invented by you (something like the middle earth of Tolkien or Martin’s Westeros). Otherwise, there may be naive people who believe that this is not your imagination, but the facts known from sources (about Norway, Hakon, etc.)

    • Replies: @AP
  89. Jon0815 says:
    @TG

    But aren’t “normal” countries pretty much all oligarchies? I mean, the United States sure is.

    It’s a matter of degree. Also, the USA has a two-party political system (a consequence of its winner-take-all, no-runoff electoral process) that naturally tends toward oligarchic control: When there are only two parties, it’s easy to form a cartel to deny voters any real choice on those issues (immigration, foreign interventionism, fealty to Israel, etc.) where major donors to both parties agree.

    Whereas, Ukraine’s multi-party political system, by offering voters more choice, should be less oligarch-controlled (but isn’t).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  90. Jon0815 says:
    @reiner Tor

    Sorry, I have to scroll through very quickly (curse of blue light hypersensitivity) so I missed the context.

    Karlin would love it if Ukraine became an outright Egypt-tier dictatorship.

    Ukraine would probably be better off as an autocracy, unless this resulted in the West no longer propping it up economically (which of course it wouldn’t, as long as it was an anti-Russian autocracy).

  91. Beckow says:
    @AP

    Until the mid 19th century in Bohemia, only peasants spoke Slavic – city-dwellers spoke German and nobles spoke French and looked down upon both the German and Czech languages

    Not true. You are again inventing history based on – I have to assume – very incomplete education. Czech state existed since 9th century, speaking, writing and ruling fully in Czech all the way to 17th century. Look up Czech early Reformation movement (Hussites) in 15.-17. centuries. It was all in Czech, all the time. Even Hussite liturgy was in Czech at that time, Bible translated, etc…

    Between the late 17. and early 19.th century there was a so-called ‘doba temna’ = dark age, when Habsburgs pushed Germanisation and Catholicism. Government offices and the church used first Latin and then German starting in the late 18th century. Even during that time Czech was spoken by most of the population, in cities records were kept mostly in Czech, aristocracy was bilingual, Prague was a Czech city with German-Italian… minorities in special position (government, trade, church).

    Hungary was more complicated due to its 250 year occupation by the Ottomans, and the frequent uprisings against the Habsburgs, but the language of government/church was Latin (not German) until late 18th century when an aspirational Habsburg king, Joseph II, replaced it with German – and triggered nationalist movements among all.

    Until the so-called Josephine reforms in the 1780’s, the official language of the Habsburg Empire was Latin and all was well. Joseph II was an enlightened moderniser and decided to Germanise everything, he also tried to change territorial divisions to make them more ‘rational‘. Joseph II was an older brother of Marie Antoinette, a fool with initiative…Habsburg Empire never recovered. Hitler was just a more insane version of Joseph II.

    • Replies: @AP
  92. @Jon0815

    Whereas, Ukraine’s multi-party political system, by offering voters more choice, should be less oligarch-controlled (but isn’t).

    “But isn’t” is the key. The number of parties is irrelevant. You can control sheeple equally well using a fake two-party system, like in the US (just try finding two differences on anything substantive between the two), or creating numerous parties ostensibly bickering among themselves, while remaining at the trough, like in Ukraine (facts: Porky was a minister in Yanuk government; Gas princess was prime minister under Yuschenko, etc.; virtually all big players are recycled and reused; the smarter ones steal a lot and run away, like Yats, and that’s the only way any rotation in Ukraine happens).

    • Agree: melanf, Beckow
    • Replies: @Jon0815
  93. Anon[284] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Why mix up things? I listed a series of ways in which American oligarchs fleece the state, and you are listing a series of ways in which Russian oligarchs spend their money.

    Worse, it is the wrong example: Bezos is expecting delivery a 139-meter long yacht.

    Say what you want about Russians, or even Ukrainians, but even the worst alcoholic voter won’t believe that skimping for a decade on local sales taxes, like Bezos did, was due to state legislatures “not paying attention”, and “not updating their laws to e-commerce”. We’re talking about several thousand state legislators simultaneously turning a blind eye. You know, states, those entities which are responsible for healthcare and education in the US.

    I am sure you have something similar in Russia, a billionaire that pays off thousands of legislators. Or a McCain giving away envelopes with cash, from a group of billionaires, on the Senate floor. I am all ears.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  94. Beckow says:
    @Anon

    Oligarchy is a natural form of government when stability prevails for a long time. It is simply a rule by the people who own most valuable assets. They have a stake in maintaining property rights and resources to motivate others to do their bidding. In most stable societies ideology and greed combine – and always end up ruling. That was true under feudalism, early capitalism, communisms of different kinds, and it is true in our global neo-liberalism.

    The few exceptions that occasionally happen are popular uprisings that lead to elite turnovers – and it usually gets worse. Or ambitious insiders who trie to change the system by getting popular support (Trump?). That and an occasional foreign invasion are the only way oligarchies are kept in check.

    Western complains about ‘corrupt oligarchies’ are largely true – most states around the world are corrupt oligarchies. But it rings hollow from people who passively tolerate similar oligarchies at home. US is a managed oligarchy, its saving grace until recently was that it was managed quite well. Now the usual insider challenge has made it more wobbly, but it was inevitable as resources got scarcer.

    Given the choice between a well or badly managed oligarchy and chaos, one can see why most people opt for trying to go for a well managed oligarchy and hope for the best. Lately they have been mostly disappointed. That suggests that the long stable period is coming to an end.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Jon0815
  95. Jon0815 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The number of parties is irrelevant.You can control sheeple equally well using a fake two-party system, like in the US (just try finding two differences on anything substantive between the two), or creating numerous parties ostensibly bickering among themselves, while remaining at the trough

    Although oligarchic control is possible in either a two-party or multiple-party system, all else being equal, it is much easier in the former (but all else is not always equal, which is why there is more oligarchic control in Ukraine than the USA).

    And there are many substantive differences between the two parties in the USA, unless you don’t consider such matters as gun control, abortion, whether the state should guarantee universal health care, whether promotion of homosexuality trumps freedom of religion, etc. to be substantive. Even on immigration- the single most important issue- while both parties are bad, the Democrats are substantively much worse. There is virtually zero difference between the two parties on foreign policy though.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  96. @Beckow

    Ukrainian oligarchy was badly managed since its inception in 1991. This is reflected even in lies told to the gullible sheeple. The first “president” Kravchuk promised that in 5 years Ukrainians will live, like in France. The second “president” Kuchma promised that in 10 years Ukrainians will live, like in Poland. Then failed Georgian “president” Saakashvili, when he was appointed a governor of Odessa region, said that if Ukraine develops successfully, in 20 years Ukrainians will live, like under Yanukovych. If Zelensky is allowed to win despite Porky’s machinations, he should promise something in 50 years. A good clown should have enough imagination for that.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Beckow
  97. @Jon0815

    And there are many substantive differences between the two parties in the USA

    I was naïve and thought that there are differences. However, today I don’t see much. Reps are genuflecting to perverts, maybe not as aggressively as Dems, but that’s a matter of form, not substance. Gun control is a red herring on both sides, and neither would do anything: look at ostensibly Dem-controlled House today. So is abortion and the whole “pro-life” BS: both parties enthusiastically support killing born adults in endless wars for MIC profits, Americans and aborigines (true equal opportunity, wouldn’t you say). What Dems under Obama introduced under the guise of “universal health care” is not universal and benefits mostly the same fat cats in the insurance industry that Reps traditionally pander to. Eight years after the passage of Obama-care, one in eight Americans remains uninsured (https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2019/feb/health-insurance-coverage-eight-years-after-aca). Anyone with above-clinical IQ must see that, as far as health care goes, health insurance companies and malpractice lawyers are pure parasites (or vultures, if you prefer). Huge tax reduction for the richest (with a few crumbs to the withering middle class) recently passed with bipartisan support. Immigration, benefiting the same fat cat darlings of Reps and Dems by depressing wages, is in fact supported by both parties, although their lip service differs. Different demagoguery is a matter of form without substance. So it goes.

    • Replies: @Jon0815
  98. Jon0815 says:
    @Beckow

    Or ambitious insiders who trie to change the system by getting popular support (Trump?).

    Trump is a fraud who never really cared about changing the system.

    What most Americans want is the platform Trump ran on (and has since betrayed): Less immigration, less foreign interventionism, and more health care. If either party offered that combination, they would dominate. But neither does, due to the power of big donors/oligarchs.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  99. Gerard2 says:
    @Dmitry

    You can see this simply in old discussion of “customs union” led by Russia (this was before the concept became more ambitious).

    You would be surprised by how many cretins were unaware of this. One of the main reasons the Eurasian Union became a bigger idea after 2012 was merely a common sense idea of formalising and thus making easier, what was already an objective reality in trade, migration, investment, culture, infrastructure and technical standards between many ex Soviet countries….and to countries that by then were in no way being considered for EU membership ( to this day, nobody can say how the EU AA to ukrop “coincided” with Russia’s efforts to set up the EEA, when nobody can say what differently did Yanukovich do , to what Yushchenko did in his 5 years where even the EU AA was nowhere on offer to Ukraine)

    It’s a simple fact that a Customs Union with Russia , would have raised Ukrainian, standards, GDP, infrastructure to the point of making EU membership as more realistic possibiity (should they have wanted)…compared to the garbage position they are in now.

    It should be remembered that if anything , since the coup , EU trade with Ukraine is much less (% bigger only because the “pie” is extremely smaller – and only that due to Poland), but EU trade with Russia is significantly larger than in 2013

    Western investment in Russia is garbage….but in’western supported” ukropia…it’s even worse!
    Significantly more big , major foreign companies or operating, selling,manufacturing in Russia than in Ukraine

    Way significantly higher standards in manufacturing, QC, QA and in protection are done in Russia than in Ukraine

    the corruption is Russia is FAR, far less than in Ukraine……..and the judiciary is about a million times better

    all rankings since 2014 like Ease of Doing business &WEF- Russia has outperformed Banderastan

    So other than gay parades and the odd joint military exercise, and some back-slapping garbage with some western leaders…..what exactly is the “western orbit” of Ukraine?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  100. @Gerard2

    It’s a simple fact that a Customs Union with Russia would have raised Ukrainian standards, GDP, infrastructure to the point of making EU membership as more realistic possibility

    Reminds me of a Russian joke.
    Tourists ask an old lady:
    – Is it far to the village?
    – If you go around by the road – maybe three miles, but if you walk straight through the forest, then ten miles or even more.

    • LOL: Beckow
  101. Gerard2 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ukrainian oligarchy was badly managed since its inception in 1991. This is reflected even in lies told to the gullible sheeple. The first “president” Kravchuk promised that in 5 years Ukrainians will live, like in France. The second “president” Kuchma promised that in 10 years Ukrainians will live, like in Poland. Then failed Georgian “president” Saakashvili, when he was appointed a governor of Odessa region, said that if Ukraine develops successfully, in 20 years Ukrainians will live, like under Yanukovych. If Zelensky is allowed to win despite Porky’s machinations, he should promise something in 50 years. A good clown should have enough imagination for that.

    The truly tragi-comic thing is that this post isn’t an exaggeration……these guys did actually say/promise all these things

  102. Beckow says:
    @Jon0815

    …Trump is a fraud

    Possibly. That’s why I put a question mark next to Trump. The inside challengers – oligarchs themselves – are usually ambitious frauds.

    But don’t miss the point: their role is to introduce populist ideas and by doing so to destabilise the system. That’s why insiders hate them so much as we see with Trump. Once the ideas are out there, it becomes harder to manage for the oligarchs…

  103. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    No, most Ruthenians were Greek Catholic at that time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Uzhhorod

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ruthenian-Catholic-Church

    They became Orthodox under Soviets.

    For the benefit of a complete accounting, which takes into consideration folks reading this thread (who might not be so historically well versed), the Ruthenians were initially Orthodox before the coercive manner involving the establishment of the Greek Catholic denomination – encouraged by people who didn’t feel akin to Rus, while being prone to an anti-Russian mindset.

  104. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Orthodox slaughtered more Catholics and Uniates than vice versa during those conflicts.

    Somewhat on par with saying that the US killed more Japanese civilians than vice versa.

    Catholics and their Uniates initiated such manner.

    • Agree: melanf
  105. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    AK: Only leaving this comment as there’s a reply to it.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  106. @Gerard2

    Porky was told by the masters not to cheat, so he cheated only to get past the gas princess and Boiko into the second round, which he was unlikely to get into w/o cheating. Now Porky is getting ready to cheat more blatantly. His goons (including notorious Biryukov, a councilor of the Defense ministry) are already posting threatening texts on the Internet. His post is supported by a “lawyer” Molchanov, who advises Porky supporters to violently break the law to get Porky back to the trough. Crimean Tatar criminal Aider Muzhdabaev openly calls for mass murder of supporters of Zelensky, Boiko, and Timoshenko, even if it means that Ukraine loses several more regions. You can tell who was near the trough and who wasn’t. Besides, Porky’s choice is limited: either he “wins”, or runs away to his stashed loot, or spends the rest of his miserable life in jail. Cornered rats are dangerous.

  107. Beckow says:
    @AnonFromTN

    …Ukrainian oligarchy was badly managed since its inception in 1991.

    That is an understatement. For some reason, Ukraine has had an extreme bad oligarchic misrule since 1991, only Moldova comes close to it. At some point, one has to blame the people – something just doesn’t add up. The combination of propensity for thievery, low work ethic, aspiring to be elsewhere (always West!!!), fatalism and gullibility is unique to Ukraine even by the very low eastern European standards.

    Regarding the income dreams that Ukrainian leaders dangle in front of the suffering population: Porky’s has an advisor, Miklos, who used to be a Finance Minister in Slovakia about 7 years ago. His party run on ‘doubling salaries in 4 years‘ – and the fools elected them (we have lots of fools too). Once in power, Miklos lowered incomes, sold all utilities to Western speculators at a discount, privatised banks (the genius that he was mostly to Italians), and agreed to exchange our currency for Euros at a 25% discount – Czechs wisely refused and kept their own currency.

    After that, Miklos and friends didn’t even bother to run for re-election (4% popularity) and Miklos decamped to Kiev to advise Poroshenko on ‘finance’. He is still there, looks like Miklos is a member in good standing of the globalist nomenklatura.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  108. @Beckow

    looks like Miklos is a member in good standing of the globalist nomenklatura.

    I think it’s simpler than that: a lot of people are grateful to him for the discount. I guess he got his kickbacks for the “management”, too. Still, even with this kind of “effective managers” Slovakia is doing a lot better than Ukraine.

    Ukraine keeps importing scum from various countries, as if they don’t have enough homemade. A few “liberal” Russians moved there after 2014. Russians joke that the country should send all its shit to Ukraine, and never let them come back.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @melanf
  109. Beckow says:
    @AnonFromTN

    …a lot of people are grateful to him for the discount.

    One difference between Ukraine and others countries, incl. Slovakia, is that people in Ukraine either don’t learn or maybe have such bad options that nothing they do actually matters.

    We got rid of Miklos. In general most comprador politicians only last one term. Then a new group is discovered by the Western sponsored media – they come up with new slogans (‘decency’ is hot now), new faces, and are back to promising Beverly Hills on the Danube. Lately they have been forced to dig deeper and pretend more – even our globalist politicians are vehemently against migrants and open borders, or so they say when in opposition.

    (Miklos is also a Slovak Rusin, maybe AP is right that they are all secretly Ukrainian nationalists…we just hope he doesn’t come back.)

  110. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    When Ukraine was politically cargo-culting not only to Russia, but even Georgia.

    Still, Saakashvili, at least, was an important person when he was in Georgia, even if his performance job was not exactly “competent”.

    Gaidar’s only distinction was to be some politically annoying daughter of important dead person.


    But being daughter of important dead person in Moscow, is apparently enough qualification to receive Ukrainian passport directly from the president’s hand in Kiev.

  111. melanf says:
    @AnonFromTN

    few “liberal” Russians moved there after 2014.

    This

    Willy-nilly from such portraits begin to believe in Physiognomy

  112. @melanf

    Willy-nilly from such portraits begin to believe in Physiognomy

    There is Russian saying that God labels scoundrels (In Russian “Бог шельму метит”)

  113. Some of Porky’s cheating is coming out. Electoral commission of Mangush area (Ukraine-occupied part of Donetsk region) complained to local police that votes for Porky were increased by the Central electoral commission 9-fold (!). Maybe gas princess and/or Boiko beat him, after all: gas princess publicly stated that there were violations to increase Porky’s votes, but refused to fight in court (I guess she wants to remain alive, which in “democratic” Ukraine is not a given).

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  114. Epigon says:

    Stop demeaning Ukrainians and piling up on Ukraine. Russians managed to get themselves killed by the millions by supporting non-Russian foreign agents bent on eradicating Russia, Russian culture, tradition and identity – and splitting Russian lands to various “nations”.

    So every time you want to insult Ukrops for having Jews and Oligarchs ruling over them and the West for pupetting them, remember that tens of millions of Russians had no problem with being ruled by Jews, Armenians, Georgians, Latvians, Kalmyks, Poles and murdered en masse by those ethnicities dominating their revolutionary government and terror squads – even worse, some continue to glorify this to the present day.

    At least Ukrainians fight for perceived Ukrainian ethnic or national interests. Had Russians done that in the past, there probably wouldn’t have been any of the Caucasian and central Asian -stan bullshit, let alone Belarus or Ukraine. Clumsy, shortsighted or outright stupid policies and decisions by Russian elite and stupidity made the disaster of 20th century possible.
    For example, promoting western dialects as Russian brotherly branches of beatiful Old Russian, while teaching official standardised as well, and decentralizing Russia to appeal to “west Rus” “in historical Rus lands” “currently occupied by foreign invaders” would have been a no-brainer if you go for Triune nation narrative.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  115. @Epigon

    At least Ukrainians fight for perceived Ukrainian ethnic or national interests.

    Let me tell you a Russian joke (by way of introduction: in Russian there are neutral and derogatory terms for Jews, Russians, and Ukrainians; I will use Jews and Joose, Russians and katsaps, Ukrainians and Ukies, respectively; also, “salo” is pork fat, “gorilka” is Ukrainian vodka).

    Who are Jews? Jews are law-abiding people who live in Israel and work.
    Who are Joose? Joose live in Ukraine, eat salo, drink gorilka, and build national Ukrainian state.
    Who are Russians? Russians are law-abiding people who live in Russia, pump oil and grow wheat.
    Who are katsaps? Katsaps live in Ukraine, eat salo, drink gorilka, and build national Ukrainian state.
    Who are Ukrainians? Ukrainians are law-abiding people who live in the US and Canada, where they work or trade.
    Who are Ukies? Ukies live in Ukraine, eat salo, drink gorilka, and do all they can to prevent Joose and katsaps from building national Ukrainian state.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  116. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    With all of the jokes that you share here, it’s a wonder that you’re not running for the pres position in Ukraine yourself, you’d give the new clown a run for his money. Let me guess, you’re a russified ‘Ukrainian’? No, I forgot for a moment, you’re in one of those categories that you conveniently left out:

    Jannisary*

    *A Ukrainian who thinks he’s better than his fellow countrymen that he’s left behind for the West, and does nothing at all but mock them all day long. You’re beginning to be so predictable and boring. 🙂
    (And please refrain from your ususal comeback about how ‘beautiful the ‘real’ Ukrainian language is and how you adore it. Stick to Russian – it suits you much better.) 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  117. AP says:
    @melanf

    So Britannica is wrong:

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vladimir-I

    Vladimir was the son of the Norman-Rus prince Svyatoslav of Kiev by one of his courtesans and was a member of the Rurik lineage dominant from the 10th to the 13th century. He was made prince of Novgorod in 970. On the death of his father in 972, he was forced to flee to Scandinavia, where he enlisted help from an uncle and overcame Yaropolk

    • Replies: @Adam
    , @melanf
  118. Adam says:
    @AP

    Vladimir had a Slavic name, spoke Old East Slavic, and originally followed Slavic paganism. Maybe he had some kind of dual identity as a Norseman. Or perhaps he was received in Scandinavia as a foreigner. Kinship relations certainly did not imply some kind of shared ethnicity. Several of the Anglo-Saxon kings spent time in exile in Normandy, and William the Conqueror’s claim to England was based on his blood relations to the kings of England. Anglo-Saxon nobility and Normans were still clearly distinct peoples.

    The problem is that you’re taking something true (that Vladimir had Scandinavian origins and had blood ties to Norsemen) and then passing your own speculation (that Vladimir was a foreigner who forced a religion onto an effectively occupied people) as fact. Maybe that was true, or maybe Vladimir saw his own subjects as his own people. It’s impossible to say for sure given the sources. The Christianization of Rus’ was also not very brutal.

    There are almost no Norse loanwords in Russian or Ukrainian. There are some proper names, and a couple of words like “herring” and “whip”. Compare this to the large number of common Old Norse words in English, and the modest amount in Irish, Norman, and Finnish. It’s not conclusive evidence, but it does imply that the Rus’ probably assimilated into the local Slavic population fairly quickly.

    • Replies: @AP
  119. AP says:
    @Adam

    Vladimir had a Slavic name

    So did a lot of Scandinavians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Valdemar I of Denmark or Waldemar the Great (1131–1182)
    Valdemar II of Denmark or Waldemar the Victorious (1170–1241)
    Valdemar the Young (1209–1231)
    Valdemar III of Denmark (1314–1364)
    Waldemar I, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1368)
    Waldemar II, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1371)
    Valdemar IV of Denmark or Waldemar Otherday (c. 1320–1375)
    Waldemar III, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1391)
    Waldemar of Sweden (disambiguation), several people
    Valdemar of Denmark (bishop) (1157/1158–1235 or 1236)
    Prince Valdemar of Denmark (1858–1939)

    Maybe he had some kind of dual identity as a Norseman.

    His father was a Scandinavian son of two Scandinavians who grew up with a Norse tutor. Vladimir’s mother was either a Scandinavian or a Slavic servant girl (sources differ). The fact that he went into exile in Norway, gathered an army of Norsemen up there and seized Novgorod with this army suggests at least dual-identity.

    The problem is that you’re taking something true (that Vladimir had Scandinavian origins and had blood ties to Norsemen) and then passing your own speculation (that Vladimir was a foreigner who forced a religion onto an effectively occupied people)

    He was a Norseman (see above), the people were Slavs. They were sold as slaves, forced to give up tribute, and mass slaughtered if they rebelled (see: the Derevlians, slaughtered by Vladimir’s grandmother St. Helga).

    There are almost no Norse loanwords in Russian or Ukrainian.

    Combination of lack of contact between elite and those whom they ruled, not higher cultural level of the Norse compared to the Slavs, and nature of Norse rule.

    it does imply that the Rus’ probably assimilated into the local Slavic population fairly quickly.

    Skip ahead 100+ years after Vladimir to Mstslav of Kiev. He married a Swedish princess and some of their children had names such as Ingeborg and Malmfred while others had Slavic names.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Swedish Family
  120. AP says:
    @Beckow

    “Until the mid 19th century in Bohemia, only peasants spoke Slavic – city-dwellers spoke German and nobles spoke French and looked down upon both the German and Czech languages”

    Not true. You are again inventing history based on – I have to assume – very incomplete education. Czech state existed since 9th century, speaking, writing and ruling fully in Czech all the way to 17th century. Look up Czech early Reformation movement (Hussites) in 15.-17. centuries. It was all in Czech, all the time. Even Hussite liturgy was in Czech at that time, Bible translated, etc…

    I was not discussing older history, of which I am aware. The statement “Until the mid 19th century in Bohemia, only peasants spoke Slavic – city-dwellers spoke German and nobles spoke French and looked down upon both the German and Czech languages” is correct.

    Government offices and the church used first Latin and then German starting in the late 18th century.

    German was the administrative language of the Empire but the Hapsburgs strongly encouraged Czech to be used as a local language. One of the fathers of the new Czech language was a half-German, Josef Jungmann.

    Even during that time Czech was spoken by most of the population, in cities records were kept mostly in Czech, aristocracy was bilingual, Prague was a Czech city with German-Italian… minorities in special position (government, trade, church).

    Prague was majority German-speaking until the 1850s. I don’t doubt the countryside was Czech-speaking.

    Until the so-called Josephine reforms in the 1780’s, the official language of the Habsburg Empire was Latin and all was well. Joseph II was an enlightened moderniser and decided to Germanise everything

    Joseph II was the modernizer who replaced antiquated Latin with German as the administrative language of the Empire, however he also strongly encouraged the development of local languages, in order to educate and spread progress to the masses. He particularly encouraged the use of vernacular Czech in local schools and publications. Forget your local nationalist mythological sources – this is better –

    http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199541621.001.0001/acprof-9780199541621-chapter-8

    This chapter also explores the role of Josephinism in intensifying the sense of local and ethnic identity and reveals that most of the supporters of Joseph II were early leaders of movements committed to the propagation of national cultures.

    Hitler was just a more insane version of Joseph II.

    That’s right, Hitler was like the guy who freed your ancestors from serfdom.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  121. @melanf

    Sputnik & Pogrom had a hilarious article on the ultimate fate of these people: http://sputnikipogrom.com/society/49267/fate-of-a-traitor/

    In fairness, Russia has nothing to write home about on how to treat its sympathizers.

  122. @AnonFromTN

    Correct. Though very unlikely enough to prevent Tymoshenko or Boyko from coming second.

    Расчеты показывают, что по нашей гипотезе эта операция по вбросу бюллетеней дала Порошенко 54,3 тысячи голосов. Это только 11% разрыва между ним и Тимошенко.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
    , @Gerard2
  123. @Mr. Hack

    Is this a subtle hint that you don’t speak Ukrainian? Take heart, about a third of Ukraine population doesn’t. Some speak horrible surgic instead, with ridiculously inappropriate word usage, like Porky, who switches to Russian when in his cups. But the Poltava language is indeed beautiful and melodious, whereas Polonized and Germanized Western dialects sound horribly harsh. You also must hate Ukrainian literature: it is humanistic, like all high-quality literary works, and totally incompatible with Nazi ideology. Even Western Ukrainian Vasyl Stefanyk is like that. Bandera would hate him (always supposing that he was literate in addition to being a homo).

  124. @Anatoly Karlin

    Maybe. Stay tuned, though: now that the rat is truly cornered, Porky won’t limit himself to this even if his masters tell him. All hell will break lose in the next three weeks. Porky wants to keep stealing, not to hang on a lamppost.

    However, chances are that Kolomoysky won’t go ahead with Zelensky scam, will just sell the clown to Porky for a quick profit.

  125. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Though very unlikely enough to prevent Tymoshenko or Boyko from coming second.

    You meant to write, “third.” It was a localized problem that didn’t change the overall result, like pro-Putin excess in Chechnya. But thanks for the article.

  126. Gerard2 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    hundreds of 1000’s of falsely registered people on the electoral role, somewhere I read 200000 dead people ( Alexander Zakharchenko may have “voted” in this election), busing in people, unlike in Russia …NO video cameras in polling stations in the most corrupt place on earth in its most corrupt period and a zillion other things ( like a complete absence of any faith in what starting number the turnout is based on or even how many people are there)

    It would be typical of you to even think he had “won” fairly

    the Yuriy Tymoshenko fake candidate got 100000 votes alone…Poroshenko/Valtsman only got 400000 more than Yulia Tymoshenko.

    That’s before we get into the ethics and legalities of having SBU members on the Electoral Commision of this freakshow..and only allowing “friendly” observers

    Nor should we forget that when Yanukovich was wrongly cheated out of victory in 2004 – he was essentially accused of faking 2 million extra votes. Poroshenko/Valtsman only 400000 votes ( or 300k) + other cheating+ western connivance

    Normally foreign votes are negligible – but in addition to all the other BS, in a provocative situation like this – it would be funny and entirely justified for Russia not to recognise these fake election…..or at least make non-recognition a serious threat ahead of the second round.
    If 55000 voted abroad then it’s plausible that 200k-300k could vote in RF if motivated to do so – and, unlike the Moldovan elections, they don’t only allow 1 voting station in Moscow for the whole country

  127. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …Until the mid 19th century in Bohemia, only peasants spoke Slavic – city-dwellers spoke German and nobles spoke French

    Last time I checked, the 800 years from 850 to 1650 were before the mid-19th century, so you are obviously not correct. May I suggest checking with the mestizo math geniuses that you spoke off, they might help you understand how chronology works.

    Joseph II was a misguided character. He was impatient with the Habsburg Empire’s old-fashioned ways, territorial complexity, Latin-run officialdom, local autonomies – so he decreed that all official communication will be in German, abolished church orders and also most (not all) feudal priviledges.

    It backfired. All ethnic groups jumped on the new linguistic freedom and within a generation or two there was no unifying concept that could hold the Empire together. Joseph didn’t encourage the national movements, he triggered them and then didn’t quite know what to do. I am not a huge affictionado of using Latin (although it is a wonderful language), but short of using a neutral language the Habsburg Empire had no chance to survive (too bad English wasn’t available then).

    By Joseph II time serfdom was effectively dead replaced with cash economy, except in the eastern boondocks where Polish landlords lorded over Galician peasants. Joseph replaced unenforceable work requirements with cash taxes. Great, instead of sleeping under a tree most of the day, now the peasants had to fork over actual cash. These modernisers are always the same – somehow it always means that others work more for less. Macron is also a ‘moderniser’.

    Hitler grew up in Vienna that was at that time (1905-14) undergoing a huge influx of Czechs from the countryside, by 1914 Czechs were an estimated 1/4 of the Viennese population. He hated it. He wanted order and in that way he was a more maniacal version of Joseph II. They both loved modernity and the German language.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mitleser
    , @reiner Tor
  128. melanf says:
    @AP

    Valdimir/Valdamarr or Kiev who forced Christianity upon the Slavs lived in exile in Norway under the protection of his kinsman Haakon Sigurdsson….So Britannica :
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vladimir-I

    Of course in Britannica says nothing about “exile in Norway”. Vladimir in 972 was in exile but there is no mention in the sources that he was in Norway, and the probability of such an event is small.
    The only source telling us about these events – the Primary chronicle.

    When Vladimir in Novgorod heard that Yaropolk killed Oleg, then got scared and fled across the sea. And Yaropolk put his Posadnik in Novgorod and owned one Russian land… Vladimir returned to Novgorod with the Varangians and …began to rule in Novgorod.

    As you can see about Norway not a single word. Vladimir was almost certainly in Sweden (with which the Ancient Rus was connected most closely, and which was closer).
    And Vladimir definitely was not a kinsman of Hakon Sigurdsson

    The bad thing is that you have already spread this story (about the fictional life of Vladimir in Norway). For you it was explained in detail that this story is fiction http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russia-doesnt-leave-its-own-behind/#comment-1817664 comment 58. But now you’re telling that story again (with a false reference to Britannica). And how such manipulations should be called?

    Vladimir had a Slavic name

    So did a lot of Scandinavians:
    Valdemar I of Denmark…

    As for you already explained (about a year ago) Valdemar/Vladimir is a Slavic (by origin) name borrowed by Scandinavians, after the reign of Vladimir

    • Replies: @AP
  129. melanf says:
    @AP

    He was a Norseman (see above), the people were Slavs. They were sold as slaves, forced to give up tribute, and mass slaughtered if they rebelled…

    Why are you repeating the odious fabrication?

    How identify themselves immediate successors of Rurik (Oleg, Igor) and what language they spoke being debated. But concerning Vladimir, both Russian and foreign scientists have full consent at the time of the reign of Vladimir, the Rurik dynasty completely assimilated (by Slavs), and Vladimir was a Slavic Prince of partly Scandinavian origin.

    by the middle of the 10th century the Rus had assimilated with the native Slavs and lost their distinct identity…. Even by 907, the Rus appear to have adopted native religious beliefs, swearing to uphold the treaties by the Slavic gods Perun, a thunder god, and Veles, a chthonic deity

    Northmen. The viking saga 793–1241 ad. John Haywood

    Also, the Viking element, although very visible, must have been was quickly absorbed into the Russian population and Russian culture…..The Russian signatories of the 945 treaty, although clearly Vikings, judging by their names, did not swear by Thor, but by Perun the Slavic god of thunder, indicating that the Varangian retinue of the Kievan prince had already adopted the religion of their Slavic surroundings
    “Law in Medieval Russia” Ferdinand Joseph Maria Feldbrugge, section “Germanic Contacts”, p 56

    As for the sale of slaves, the destruction of the rebels, etc. the princes of the Rurik dynasty treated both the Slavs and the Scandinavians (as well as the Finno-Ugric and the Turks) in exactly the same way. In the Russian laws of that era there are no differences between the Slavs and Scandinavians. In particular, this same Prince Vladimir July 12, 978 killed two noble Vikings for human sacrifices to Slavic gods

    Using your absurd logic, you can write that

    Victoria was a German Queen (see above), who based on the German elite rules conquered British slaves. British were sold as slaves, forced to give up tribute, and mass slaughtered by they German masters…

    • Replies: @AP
  130. Jon0815 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Immigration, benefiting the same fat cat darlings of Reps and Dems by depressing wages, is in fact supported by both parties, although their lip service differs.

    Both parties used to be about equally bad on immigration, but recently the Dems have gotten much worse, while the GOP has gotten somewhat less bad. For example, in 2013, 100% of Senate Dems voted for the Gang of 8 amnesty/legal immigration increase, while only about 30% of the Senate GOP did. And if that same vote were held today, it would be 100% vs. 20% or less.

    Different demagoguery is a matter of form without substance. So it goes.

    Even if it were true that in the legislature the only real differences between the parties were rhetorical (it’s not), it would be clearly absurd to argue that it is irrelevant who sits on the Supreme Court. And there is a clearly a big difference between the two parties on the sort of Supreme Court justices they support: The 4 Dem-appointed justices consistently rule very differently from the 5 GOP-appointed ones. A supermajority (or even majority) of Dem appointed SCOTUS justices would mean de facto repeal of the 2nd Amendment, criminalization of failure to celebrate to homo marriage, judicial sabotage of any attempts to control illegal immigration, etc. So at the least it does matter which party controls the presidency and Senate.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  131. @Anon

    Hungary was not a country until 100 years ago.

    Depends on your definition of a country. Hungary had its own diets, as a result its own laws, there were customs to be paid on the border between Hungary and other parts of the Habsburg Empire, etc. It even had its own army until 1848, although the Hungarian units were often stationed in places like Italy, while Austrian etc. troops were often stationed in Hungary.

    Hungary was a subdivision of Austria, and Turkey before that.

    “Turkey” (the Ottoman Empire) never even managed to conquer the whole of the Kingdom of Hungary. Though after the defeat in 1526 the Hungarian king died, and a civil war resulted, with part of the country (the later Principality of Transylvania) becoming an Ottoman tributary vassal state. (It joined the Habsburgs twice during the Ottoman times in the 16th century, both with disastrous results, and both times reverted to being an Ottoman vassal. Its autonomy was greatly reduced in the late 17th century, fortunately shortly afterwards Ottoman power collapsed in Hungary.)

    Anyway, both the Kingdom of Hungary and the Principality of Transylvania continued to have its own laws (most of them common, since the Transylvanian state also derived from the Kingdom of Hungary following the civil war), so the Ottomans only ruled the middle part of the country, roughly one third of the area known as “Hungary” in the Middle Ages and Early Modern and Modern periods up until 1918.

    Hungary was the most retarded region of Austria.

    What does it even mean? After the destruction of the Turkish Wars, the country had a very low population density, and was primarily an agricultural land. The biggest concentration of industry was in Silesia, and also other provinces of Czechia (Bohemia proper and Moravia), with Silesia lost after 1740.

  132. AP says:
    @Beckow

    …Until the mid 19th century in Bohemia, only peasants spoke Slavic – city-dwellers spoke German and nobles spoke French

    Last time I checked, the 800 years from 850 to 1650 were before the mid-19th century

    As were the years 1800 and 1700. You might review the word never and find that I did not use it in my post. Of course, your country did more poorly on standardized test than did America’s mestizos so reading comprehension and basic logic may be difficult for you.

    All ethnic groups jumped on the new linguistic freedom

    So now you admit that he brought about linguistic freedom. Good. Even you are teachable.

    within a generation or two there was no unifying concept that could hold the Empire together

    Empire held together until the loss of the World War, which also brought down the Hohenzollerns and Romanovs. I suppose in your world those events were also inevitable?

    By Joseph II time serfdom was effectively dead replaced with cash economy, except in the eastern boondocks where Polish landlords lorded over Galician peasants. Joseph replaced unenforceable work requirements with cash taxes.

    There was still widespread serfdom even in Bohemia (and Slovenia):

    https://voxeu.org/article/labour-scarcity-and-labour-coercion-serfdom-bohemia

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Mr. XYZ
  133. Mitleser says:
    @Beckow

    Reminder that Hitler was only born in Austria because of Joseph II. botched attempt to add Bavaria to his domains.
    Joseph II. got Braunau am Inn, Hitler’s birth town, but little else.

  134. AP says:
    @melanf

    Of course in Britannica says nothing about “exile in Norway”. Vladimir in 972 was in exile but there is no mention in the sources that he was in Norway, and the probability of such an event is small.

    https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory/chapter/vladimir-i-and-christianization/

    Vladimir fled to his kinsman Haakon Sigurdsson, who ruled Norway at the time. Together they gathered an army with the intent to regain control of Rus’ and establish Vladimir as the ruler.

    Vladimir was almost certainly in Sweden (with which the Ancient Rus was connected most closely, and which was closer).

    The point was that he fled to Scandinavia where his kinsmen lived, gathered an army there, and seized the throne. This tells us that he had at least a dual Slavic-Norse identify and wasn’t Slavicized.

    Vladimir had a Slavic name

    So did a lot of Scandinavians:
    Valdemar I of Denmark…

    As for you already explained (about a year ago) Valdemar/Vladimir is a Slavic (by origin) name borrowed by Scandinavians, after the reign of Vladimir

    Yes, I know that you agree with me. I stated that a lot of Scandinavians had a Slavic name. This Slavic name was popular among Scandinavian elites. Having a Slavic name did not make a Scandinavian a Slav – unless you think that Denmark had a bunch of Slavic kings.

    • Replies: @melanf
  135. @Beckow

    Habsburgs were also crowned as Czech kings in Prague, would that make Czechs ‘independent‘?

    No one talked about independence, but Hungary was clearly a separate country. The Kingdom of Bohemia (including the lands of the Bohemian Crown Moravia and Silesia) was pretty much a separate country until roughly 1620, when it was thoroughly defeated (never to rebel again until 1918) and incorporated into the lands of the Austrian provinces. Especially after 1806 it was just a bunch of provinces of the Austrian Empire.

    While Hungary kept being a separate country until 1848. Then in 1867 it became a somewhat separate country, although not fully separate. For example many parts of the Compromise with Austria had to be renewed at certain periods, so at least theoretically it was still a separate country and Austria-Hungary was just a temporary measure. (Albeit it was possible to renew it, and they did it whenever the issue came up.)

    They could run their own schools, they insisted on a Magyar monoculture, and that – more than anything else – destroyed the Habsburg Empire.

    The Habsburg Empire was inherently unstable anyway. Local national elites wanted their own countries, it was inevitable. In Bohemia after 1908 knowledge of the Czech language was mandatory for local civil servants, which practically barred local Germans (who could only speak German) from joining the local bureaucracy, while all educated Czechs with the required education could speak German. I remember a few months (a year?) ago you wrote that Czechs were heroically fighting for the survival of their language… far from it, they actually had all the advantages in Czechia. Yet they it didn’t stop them from wanting their own country.

    Most people in Zakarpathia were probably by far happiest as part of a much more advanced and richer Czechoslovakia. Some preferred Hungary

    The Ruthenians received autonomy in Hungary 1939-44, a reason why for some Hungary was preferable to Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia was also only rich because of Czechia, Slovakia was dirt poor even relative to Hungary, so I don’t think that played a role.

    However, I assert that the majority of Subcarpathia wants to be in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @LH
  136. AP says:
    @melanf

    He was a Norseman (see above), the people were Slavs. They were sold as slaves, forced to give up tribute, and mass slaughtered if they rebelled…

    Why are you repeating the odious fabrication?

    How identify themselves immediate successors of Rurik (Oleg, Igor) and what language they spoke being debated.

    Yes, by Ukrainian and Russian nationalist mythmakers on the one hand, and normal people on the other hand.

    Meanwhile contemporary Arabs described the Volga as the slave highway because of all the Slavic slaves the Vikings had exported along it.

    But concerning Vladimir, both Russian and foreign scientists have full consent at the time of the reign of Vladimir, the Rurik dynasty completely assimilated (by Slavs),

    Completely assimilated by Slavs Vladimir went to Scandinavia and gathered an army there, using it to seize power in Rus.

    Completely assimilated by Slavs Sviatoslav (son of two Scandinavians, Helga and Ingvar), Vladimir’s father, was raised by a Scandinavian tutor Asmud.

    Etc.

    “Also, the Viking element, although very visible, must have been was quickly absorbed into the Russian population and Russian culture…..The Russian signatories of the 945 treaty, although clearly Vikings, judging by their names, did not swear by Thor, but by Perun the Slavic god of thunder, indicating that the Varangian retinue of the Kievan prince had already adopted the religion of their Slavic surroundings”
    “Law in Medieval Russia” Ferdinand Joseph Maria Feldbrugge, section “Germanic Contacts”, p 56

    Same source, page 321-322:

    10th century treaties with Byzantium all participating warriors and merchants had Scandinavian names and “forces commanding by the princes of Kiev consisted apparently almost completely of Varangians.”

    “General picture” was that the Vikings took over Russia (sic) and that a particular Viking clan, the Rurikids, took monarchial power. They maintained a lively relationship with Scandinavia until the first decades of the 11th century through dynastic marriages and calling upon military aid from their former homeland, after which there was no longer significant Varangian influence.

    So absorbtion by Slavs occurred in the 11th century, after Vladimir.

    Using your absurd logic, you can write that

    ” Victoria was a German Queen (see above), who based on the German elite rules conquered British slaves. British were sold as slaves, forced to give up tribute, and mass slaughtered by they German masters…“

    Except that Victoria didn’t go to Germany and come back to seize power with a German army. Using German troops, she did not slaughter an English town that resisted her, as Helga did the Drevlian capital. Nor were Englishmen being sold as slaves to the Arabs by the British monarchs, as was done to Slavs by Rurikids.

    It is very funny to see that you are no better than Ukrainian svidomists with your mythology.

    • Replies: @melanf
  137. melanf says:
    @AP

    Vladimir fled to his kinsman Haakon Sigurdsson, who ruled Norway

    There is no mention of Norway in the only medieval source that speaks about Vladimir’s exile. Why do you repeat the fiction for the third time?

    Vladimir fled to his kinsman Haakon Sigurdsson…

    Vladimir was not a kinsman of Hakoon. The origin of both is known, they have no family ties

    The point was that he fled to Scandinavia….This tells us that he had at least a dual Slavic-Norse identify and wasn’t Slavicized.

    This is absurd.
    Four of the Norwegian king, was at different times in exile in “Ancient Russia”. So these kings, by your logic, were not Norwegians but Russians?

    • Replies: @AP
  138. @Beckow

    Hitler grew up in Vienna

    He grew up closer to Salzburg. He was closer to a Bavarian than a regular Austrian, his town was part of Bavaria until the late 18th century.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  139. @AP

    Until the mid 19th century the only people speaking Hungarian in Hungary were peasants

    And nobles and the majority of aristocrats. Also some of the city-dwellers, though some 95% of the population was rural anyway. Some of the very richest aristocrats spent most of their time in Vienna, and for a few decades they couldn’t speak Hungarian well, but that doesn’t apply to the majority of the aristocracy who didn’t have so much money so couldn’t afford living in Vienna. Also, many the Vienna aristocrats required their children to learn the languages of the peasants on their estates, so they usually could speak some Hungarian (I’m not sure about Slovak).

    • Replies: @AP
  140. AP says:
    @melanf

    Vladimir fled to his kinsman Haakon Sigurdsson, who ruled Norway

    There is no mention of Norway in the only medieval source that speaks about Vladimir’s exile. Why do you repeat the fiction for the third time?

    And yet various historians claim he did.

    The point was that he fled to Scandinavia….This tells us that he had at least a dual Slavic-Norse identify and wasn’t Slavicized.

    This is absurd.
    Four of the Norwegian king, was at different times in exile in “Ancient Russia”. So these kings, by your logic, were not Norwegians but Russians?

    You are starting to learn, despite your best efforts.

    It means that the ruling Scandinavian-origin elite in Rus at that time was not Slavicised and these Scandinavians felt at home among them in Kiev or Novgorod. So Scnadinavian Rus moved to Norway, Scandinavian Norwegians moved to Rus.

  141. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    There was a widespread movement to learn Hungarian by German-speaking Hungarian city-dwellers. Initially the cities were German-speaking, but the patriotic Hungarian German-speakers learned Hungarians and often Magyarized their names around 1848.

    You are correct that overwhelming majority of Hungarian population were rural peasants thus the country as a whole was Hungarian-speaking.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  142. @Beckow

    The early medieval Hungary was not a Magyar ethnic state, it was the usual feudal multi-ethnic melange of German-French aristocrats and royal families, multi-cultural nobility (pastoral Turkish groups were particularly well represented) and peasants of a dozen different nationalities.

    Where do you get this?

    First, most densely populated areas were roughly the areas which have been inhabited by an ethnically Hungarian population in 1910. The major exceptions are parts of Transylvania, on which later. Most of present day Slovakia, as well as Subcarpathia and large parts of Transylvania were all parts of the so-called gyepű area, which is an ancient Hungarian word for uninhabited border regions (no tax income from that area, no nobles were given to titles to these lands, etc.) This is one reason why Hungarian historians tend to think that the Magyar invaders assimilated all Slavs and others found in the Carpathian Basin, and that possibly Slovaks (and even more likely Ruthenians and Romanians) were more recent arrivals.

    There are a few more reasons to think that.

    One is that already in the 11th century occasionally we find names of lowly servants in the sources. Those are invariably Magyar names.

    Second, the earliest (Latin language) sources often contain Hungarian words or sentences, never Slavic words or sentences – so the monks or scribes were likely ethnically Hungarian.

    Third, and this doesn’t apply to Slovaks, the Christian churches around 1000 were predominantly Western Rite, but there were many Eastern Rite churches, too. However, after 1001 each of these were incorporated into the Hungarian Catholic Church, and especially after 1054 – before that the difference was not that important – the eastern rite churches were slowly converted to Western Rite. Then around 1200 Eastern Christians started to appear in the sources slowly, the Vlachs or Olachs in the South Carpathian and later other Transylvanian mountains, and the Ruthenians. Then the Turkish Wars, especially in the 1660s destroyed much of the ethnically Hungarian population in the Transylvanian valleys, and after that the nobles invited Romanians to their estates. It is usually thought that Transylvania had a Hungarian ethnic majority well into the 17th century.

    Fourth, the Magyar graves in the early 10th century contain a predominantly Eastern European population (though sample sizes are still small) with the elite showing heavy signs of East Asian (Mongoloid) admixture (roughly one third Asian / two thirds European), however, by the 11th century the signs of Asian admixture basically disappear from the elite, and from that time the elites are European. The only Turkish presence are the Kuns, settled after the Mongol invasion by King Béla IV, but they were a relatively small population, in a limited part of the country, and they were not heavily elite, though their nobles were given Hungarian nobility. They are also more Hungarian ethnically.

    Anyway, the nobility and aristocracy undoubtedly spoke Hungarian throughout the Middle Ages, and they also had a Hungarian noble/aristocrat identity. In some parts of the country (mostly Slovakia, as far as I know) in the 19th century the nobles often spoke the local language at home (that was definitely untrue of Transylvania’s Romanian areas), I don’t know if that had been the case earlier. Also, the area currently in Serbia (the province Vojvodina) has been mostly inhabited by Serbs since the Early Modern period and possibly earlier (it’s unclear how much the ethnic border moved to the north after the Ottoman Wars, when much of the area became fully uninhabited; anyway, the Serbs were given the area with privileges as Border Guards by the Habsburg kings; what’s clear is that the northernmost part, including the city Szabadka or Subotica was ethnically Hungarian until at least 1944).

    In short, there are reasons to think that Hungary was more ethnically Magyar before 1526 than ever since, because the wars 1526-1711 (yes I know 1703-11 was at least partly our fault) mostly destroyed the Hungarian areas. The low point was in the late 18th century (when Hungary was perhaps a little over one third Magyar), and then it slowly increased to roughly 50% by 1910.

  143. @AP

    Initially the cities were German-speaking

    That’s true of most cities, but not nearly all. For example Debrecen or Kecskemét were always Hungarian-speaking.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @reiner Tor
  144. @Dmitry

    Norilsk economy, for example, is basically only people freezing their ass and breathing toxic pollution, to make profits for Potanin and Deripaska.

    Russia is the true cyberpunk future.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  145. @reiner Tor

    In the 18th century Debrecen was the biggest city in Hungary.

  146. @reiner Tor

    I’m even unsure about the “most cities” part. Further examples of ethnically mostly Hungarian cities in the 18th century: Pécs, Miskolc, Szeged, I’m not sure about Győr, which was among the oldest cities built from stone, and never conquered by the Turks. (Unlike Székesfehérvár or Buda or Pest, which were, as a result, basically 100% German in the 18th and early 19th centuries, settling in the nearly uninhabited cities after the 1680s.)

    Many cities were mixed, like Kassa (present day Košice), where the population was Hungarian, Slovak and German. Even German speaking cities like Buda had some Hungarian inhabitants.

    EDIT:

    Maybe Pécs was also rather mixed with Croats and Germans.

    • Replies: @AP
  147. @Jon0815

    Yes, nominations to Supreme Court are the only remaining difference. I do hope it can curb repeated attempts to overturn people’s will by judicial shenanigans.

  148. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    Yours is a hodge podge description of many ethnic groups over a questionable time frame that doesn’t really describe much at all. Each ethnic group that you describe, Slovaks, Rusyns, Romanians, Serbs, Kuns, had a different history in this area and deserve a separate explanation. Your justification for Hungarian autochtone in the vast areas that you describe based on a few Hungarian names in a ‘Latin’document doesn’t even pinpoint what area you’re trying to claim? The Slavic tribe of White Croats were already settled in the areas of Subcarpathian Rus as early as the mid 5th century. Hungarian tribes passed through this area in 896 from the east and then settled in the Panonian basin ‘amongst Slavic tribes’. Even Hungarian sources always referred to these areas in legal documents as the Marchia Ruthenorum.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  149. @Mr. Hack

    The Slavic tribe of White Croats were already settled in the areas of Subcarpathian Rus as early as the mid 5th century.

    Maybe. Do you have a source of that? Hungarian rulers in the 10th and 11th centuries considered the area to be uninhabited forests. It’s a pretty long shot to claim that the White Croats moved there in 450 and then stayed there all the way until 2019. Is three any source for the continuity? Do we know anything about their religion? How were their churches not noticed by the Magyars for two centuries, and not incorporated into the Hungarian Catholic Church, like other eastern churches in the country?

    I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that it’s not in itself very convincing. Ruthenians may or may not have lived there in the 10th century, but the area was ravaged by armies dozens of times between the 5th and 10th centuries, so we’d need some evidence for the White Croats staying there.

    Hungarian tribes passed through this area in 896 from the east and then settled in the Panonian basin ‘amongst Slavic tribes’.

    Genetically the Magyar tribes are very different from the 11th century Hungarians (especially the elites), which points to large-scale intermarriage and possibly assimilation. Whatever happened, it’s pretty clear that the Magyar tribes absorbed the majority of the Slavs in the Carpathian Basin. Interestingly, some Rus people came with the Magyar tribes, and they founded some settlements all around the country. For example Oroszvár (literally “Russian Castle”) near present day Bratislava.

    Even Hungarian sources always referred to these areas in legal documents as the Marchia Ruthenorum.

    No, they didn’t. I just looked it up, the first time the expression comes up is in the 12th century by a biographer of Konrad, archbishop of Salzburg. The biography (written in Salzburg in the second half of the century) contains lots of inaccuracies (for example the monk who wrote it visited the city of Esztergom in Hungary once, the easternmost point he ever visited, and believed it to be Hungary’s royal seat), and seems to have incorrectly believed that similar to Germany (which had the Ostmark or Eastern March on the border) Hungary must also have a March on its border. The Hungarian king was (at the time of his visit in Esztergom) with his armies in Halych (for some reason nearly all medieval Hungarian kings tried to claim the throne of Halych), and so he incorrectly inferred that it was Marchia Ruthenorum. In any event, even if it really existed (highly dubious given that no other source from the time mentions it), it could simply mean a March organized against the Ruthenians.

    However, it’s obvious that by the 13th (and probably 12th) century there were already Ruthenians in Subcarpathia. It’s possible that they had been there in small numbers all along.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  150. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    I have a very busy day at work to day, so I wont be able to respond any earlier than this evening. Also, some literature dealing with your questions are at home…

  151. To be sure, I don’t find it impossible that people lived in the gyepű area. However, in very small numbers only. So, Hungary was ethnically more Hungarian at the time than in, say, the 19th century.

  152. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    …Hungarian historians tend to think that the Magyar invaders assimilated all Slavs and others found in the Carpathian Basin, and that possibly Slovaks (and even more likely Ruthenians and Romanians) were more recent arrivals.

    I am sure Magyar historians tend to think that, but it is not true. It is actually nonsense on its face, where in the world would these millions come from in the historical era – without any mention in the historical record? Unfortunately, what you describe is why we couldn’t live in the same country. We understand our common history differently.

    One example that completely refutes you: south-western Slovakia, the valleys of rivers Vah and Nitra, is a densely populated, fertile region, inhabited since Bronze age. Today it has around 2 million people, many cities, 2 archbishops since early Middle Ages, 40% of Slovakia. The area was the core area of the 8.-10. century Great Moravia state and has remained a core area since then. This is where Byzantine Christianity was introduced in the 9.th century with cyrillic alphabet – it is where Slav Eastern Orthodoxy was initially invented – with eastern Moravia that is now part of Czechia. The region has had a documented Slovak population since then: names in documents, place names, Latin city records, archaic Slovak language used since 15th century. This was also the core region for the Slovak national movement, the leaders came from there, 1848-9 uprising happened there, this is where formation of Czecho-Slovakia in 1918 was very popular. To claim that Slovaks came from ‘somewhere else later’ makes no sense, where would they come from? And when? How would they maintain the continuity? How come nobody noticed? And who lived there before?

    You are right that large parts of central Slovakia were uninhabited until 12.-13. century, it was a huge mountainous forest. These areas were settled in the late Middle Ages by mostly peasants from the south-west looking for more land and by German miners and others. Eastern Slovakia was different – it always had very strong Rusin population and Kosice (Kassa) was a more Hungarian city – at one point I believe it was the second largest city in Hungary. Even during WWII, Kosice was taken by Hungary to revert back to Slovakia in 1945.

    We distinguish between Magyars and Hungary – we have always called Hungary, ‘Uhorsko’ and it is a geographic name for the Carpathian basin that includes core Magyar lands, plus Transylvania, Slovakia, Ruthenia, Burgenland, Vojvodina,… In that we differ and will never agree. When we study our history, ‘Uhorsko’ (or Hungary) and Magyar are not the same. In English it gets lumped together. My point is that this was the core reason why there is this lingering tension between Magyars and Slovaks – we don’t see our common history in the same way.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @reiner Tor
  153. @Beckow

    where in the world would these millions come from in the historical era

    The whole Kingdom of Hungary had maybe a million inhabitants in the 11th century. What millions are you talking about?

    I am sure Magyar historians tend to think that

    I just did a googling. Apparently not all Hungarian historians think that. Especially not about Slovaks, who are Catholics, so the arguments are way weaker. Ruthenians are a small population, so anything is possible. Romanians are thought to be later arrivals by basically all Hungarian historians, at least for most of Transylvania.

    Kosice (Kassa) was a more Hungarian city

    It was fluctuating. Slovaks and Magyars had a plurality in different times, the Magyar percentage growing in the 19th century (Hungarian plurality, but not majority, by 1910 I think), and there was probably no clear ethnic majority since the early Middle Ages. There were also Germans.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  154. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …You might review the word never and find that I did not use it in my post.

    What? You are grasping for straws, when you say that something didn’t happen ‘until mid-19th century‘, and then take it back by saying that you didn’t use the word ‘never‘, you frankly sound desperate.

    Words have meaning. Claiming that ‘only peasants spoke Czech or Hungarian until mid-19th century‘ is false. Even between 1700 and 1850 your ‘only peasants spoke…‘ is untrue: there was church, literature, merchants, documents, schools in Czech, Slovak and Hungarian, etc…It was less than before 1700 and less than after around 1830-40, but it was there. Your statement was incorrect. You have a false narrative of the whole Habsburg era in your mind that you can’t let go off.

    • Replies: @AP
  155. melanf says:
    @AP

    Yes, by Ukrainian and Russian nationalist mythmakers on the one hand, and normal people on the other hand.

    In this issue (since the time of Vladimir, the Rurik dynasty was “slavicised”), there is complete unanimity of the Russian, Scandinavian, English, American etc. historians. If you want to argue – give a quote from a modern scientific article/monograph (not Wikipedia or Reddit!) which States that the native language of the Volodymyr – old Norse that he identified himself as a Scandinavian, etc., etc. I gave you quotes from scientific works of Western historians where it is clearly stated that to the time of Vladimir, the Rurik family “slavicised”.

    Except that Victoria didn’t go to Germany

    Much worse , she despised her English slaves so much that she brought her husband from Germany.

    Using German troops,

    Victoria’s ancestors in the 18th century used German troops to suppress uprisings in great Britain

    Nor were Englishmen being sold as slaves to the Arabs

    I don’t know about the Arabs, but the deal to buy 30,000 slaves-Englishmen for settle the Crimea failed only because of an accident.

    However here the early middle ages:
    The largest Western European slave market was in Verdun, a famous center of castration, which was mostly produced by Jews. Here, via the saône and the Rhone, they were transported in Narbonne or Arles, and then to Spain or to the East. Since the middle of the VIII century., despite the protests of the popes, one of the main suppliers of slaves was another important market, Venice and Prague. Thus, throughout Europe, men and women were grabbed and sold to Muslims and Christians of Byzantium. The Anglo-Saxons were brought to Venice via Lyon or sent straight to Spain. The Lombards were bought in the markets of southern Italy and resold in Egypt and Africa.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @AP
  156. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t know much about Transylvania. I think Ruthenia was more like Slovakia and had continuous Rusin population.

    I mentioned ‘millions‘ because if you take the Hungarian historians’ claims at face value it implies that a very large numbers of Slovaks, Romanians, Rusins moved in between 11. and 17. century. It wouldn’t work without large numbers, maybe hundreds of thousands. My question was: from where?

    It is a key point of contention between us, the main reason for the occasional poor relations. It has been discussed since at least 18th century, maybe it is time to have a more rational narrative that we agree on.

  157. inertial says:
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t understand why you think (C) is the best outcome for Russia. Or I guess I understand but disagree.

    Right now, the best plausible outcome for Russia would be Ukrainian regime easing up on its relentless, preposterous anti-Russian propaganda. Poroshenko won’t do it but Zelensky might.

    So I’ll go with (A).

    • Replies: @Beckow
  158. Beckow says:
    @melanf

    …The largest Western European slave market was in Verdun, a famous center of castration, which was mostly produced by Jews.

    These are very well known historical facts that AP intentionally omits from his narrative. Why? He either doesn’t know and should stay away from these topics. Or, more likely, he is a bitter guy looking to throw dirt at anything that he doesn’t identify with.

    I am assuming his identity is a half Ruthenian-Galician has been ‘blue blood‘, and half the usual mis-educated descendant of exiles in US suburbia surrounded by mestizos taking over. He dreams of the heroic past and makes up stories to make himself feel better.

    The petty arguments are very harmful: we will argue and argue and one day the mestizo-African-Papuans-Indians… will pull the plug on our (common) European civilization. We are dividing ourselves, and that’s exactly how we got to this dangerous point.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  159. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    I meant that Hitler came of age in Vienna – it was in Vienna that he formed as a young man before WWI and the Viennese milieu was quite unique at that time. He acquired most of his personality there: a rejected artist, frustrated nationalist in a multi-cultural city, unbounded anger,…

    As a boy he grew up mostly in Linz, Upper Austria, he never lived in Salzburg. You are right that Upper Austria is similar to Bavaria, and quite un-Viennese. Deeper family origins were in the Waldviertel district of Lower Austria, poor mountainous region on the Czech border. There were persistent stories that his family name – originally spelled mostly Hutler – was etymologically derived from the Czech word ‘huta‘ that means a wooden mountain cottage. Hitler’s male DNA was closest in Europe to Albanians – and originally from North Africa. He was a mutt.

  160. @Beckow

    White people have a long history of harming each other. Romans fought “barbarians”, all of whom were white. Throughout Middle Ages there were incessant wars between petty dukedoms and kingdoms for petty reasons. Then there were WWI and WWII, where white people of different nations exterminated each other with gusto. Then in Europe there were mostly wars or semi-wars between close relatives: Serbs, Croats, and Bosnyaks with each other in the 1990s, now Ukrainians with Russians. One can say to the credit of white people that many provocations did not result in wars: Baltics and Poles relentlessly provoke Russia, but no shots were fired so far.

    But generally, you are right: while the white people provoke and fight each other, non-white people breed much faster than they are killed in wars between themselves or as the result of imperial bombing. But how do you explain to morons that white-on-white wars are the worst thing they can do to their civilization?

  161. Beckow says:
    @inertial

    …Zelensky might

    Zelensky would have to get support in Rada, the parliamentary election this fall is the big one.

    Strategically it is not in Russia’s interest to make up with Ukraine now. It would cost them a lot, it would keep them from squeezing the energy markets (the pipelines are almost ready), it would postpone the inevitable confrontation. Zelensky could mess it up if he tries to be ‘friends‘ with Russia.

    The reality is that Western and Russian interests in Ukraine are at this point not reconcilable. Too much has happened since 2013. It can stay as a stalemate or Ukraine could split up. Any premature reconciliation would lead to the next Maidan. It is in Kiev’s interest to feign rapprochement with Russia, but it wouldn’t be real. The sad thing is that Russia needs to sit back and let this play out – most likely watch Ukraine ride this all the way down. Then they will be ready for a compromise.

    Ukraine is not a sovereign subject either – they are a tool used by the Western sponsors, and Washington has no interest in solving this crisis, it would hurt them. All Russia can do is sit back and wait, and increase the costs for Kiev and Washington-Brussels. It is easier done with a moron like Porky in power. Or if there is internal chaos in Ukraine – like disputed elections. Zelensky is the worst option.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @inertial
  162. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Of course, your country did more poorly on standardized test than did America’s mestizos so reading comprehension and basic logic may be difficult for you.

    I’d still like to see a source that Slovaks are, on average, dumber than US Hispanics. I find that hard to believe.

    • Replies: @AP
  163. @Beckow

    No danger of “rapprochement” with Russia under Zelensky. His master Kolomoysky organized the first Nazi battalions to fight against Donbass. He personally performed for those goons and told them how proud he is of them. Ukraine will drink its cup to the bitter end. Europe will ask Putin to bring some order to Ukraine only after Ukies create a new Chernobyl or an equivalent major catastrophe on one of the chemical plants.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  164. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Maybe it wasn’t really a ‘Nazi battalion’? I mean it’s no secret that Kolomoyski is a Jewish oligarch. If what you say is true (highly unlikely), why would a Jew finance and reward a ‘Nazi battallion’? Sounds like one of your strange conspiracy theories that just doesn’t add up?….

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @AnonFromTN
  165. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    …Kolomoysky organized the first (Nazi) battalions to fight against Donbass

    Ok, so they were not ‘Nazis‘, whatever that terms means today to different people. To apply historical labels to today’s political groups doesn’t work well. There are really no Nazis, Jacobins, feudal lords, Bolsheviks, etc… today. It is 2019.

    The fact remains that Kolomoisky organized anti-Russian batalions in Donbass. Before Zelinsky, Kolomisky was a sponsor for Tymoshenko who in 2014 wanted to ‘nuke Russia‘ (and that’s a quote from her).

    I struggle to see how Zelinsky’s (or Kolomoisky’s) rapprochement with Russia would work. Would he say ‘never mind, let’s discuss trade’? Why would Russia agree? What does Kiev have to offer? They can’t win the war, there is nothing beneficial for Russia in more trade with them, they will never give in diplomatically on Crimea – so what would Zelinsky offer?

    Zelinsky would most likely try threats: if Russia doesn’t agree, Ukraine will ‘join NATO’, put missiles on Russia’s border, bombard Donbas day and night. Threatening the stronger party is always a bad idea. Kiev has no cards to play, it is about 4 years too late. At least with Porky the situation would get frozen for a few years and who knows, maybe a meteor will hit Moscow… with Zelinsky the harsh reality would be too painful.

  166. @Mr. Hack

    Circumstances make strange bedfellows. They were (and are) Nazi battalions, and at least two of them were financed by a Jew Kolomoysky. Truth be told, he is a profiteer without scruples first, and a Jew second. Like Soros, he’d sell his co-religionists any time there is profit in it. His main grievance with current Kiev regime is not that it’s Nazi, but that Porky did not give him enough chances to steal. Not because Porky is honest, but because Porky prefers stealing it himself.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
    , @Dmitry
  167. Gerard2 says:

    Just when I thought this freakshow couldn’t get any worse………….this Nazi state of Ukraine with jewish PM and a jewish President working to keep control against a jewish comedian funded by a ultra-vermin cockraoch Nazi-stereotype of a jew, slug – Jewish oligarch Kolomoisky….hires black PR consultant , Israeli, Moshe Klugkhafta to destroy his opposition and lead him into the second round!

    (not anti-semitic – but pointing out the irony, contradictions and stupidity of it), jews are great for the world…..just not these filth

    Probably the worst/more embarrassing one is hireing the American Nazi hippy, Banderatard bitch Suprun, with the CIA brother and millions in corrupt money………becoming the Health Minister in s state she hasn’t lived in……..f**king it up in spectactular style…and being the worst rated official in the country

  168. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Most of the urban ethnic Hungarians were German-speaking, though, at least int he cities such as Pest.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  169. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Thank you for your informative and fascinating posts.

    Whatever happened, it’s pretty clear that the Magyar tribes absorbed the majority of the Slavs in the Carpathian Basin.

    Yes. By descent, Hungarians are more Slavic than are Balkan Slavic-speaking people.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @Mikhail
  170. AP says:
    @Beckow

    You are grasping for straws, when you say that something didn’t happen ‘until mid-19th century‘, and then take it back by saying that you didn’t use the word ‘never‘, you frankly sound desperate.

    Your assumption that I implied that there were never, ever Czech-speakers in Prague is bizarre.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  171. AP says:
    @melanf

    In this issue (since the time of Vladimir, the Rurik dynasty was “slavicised”), there is complete unanimity of the Russian, Scandinavian, English, American etc. historians.

    “Law in Medieval Russia” Ferdinand Joseph Maria Feldbrugge, section “Germanic Contacts”, pp. 321-322

    10th century treaties with Byzantium all participating warriors and merchants had Scandinavian names and “forces commanding by the princes of Kiev consisted apparently almost completely of Varangians.”

    “General picture” was that the Vikings took over Russia (sic) and that a particular Viking clan, the Rurikids, took monarchial power. They maintained a lively relationship with Scandinavia until the first decades of the 11th century through dynastic marriages and calling upon military aid from their former homeland, after which there was no longer significant Varangian influence.

    which States that the native language of the Volodymyr – old Norse that he identified himself as a Scandinavian, etc., etc.

    Multiple sources confirm that he, son of a Norseman, moved to Scandinavia and gathered an army of Scandinavians that he used to seize power.

    You think he didn’t speak Norse?

    Sources state 2+2 and you complain if they don’t say “4.”

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @melanf
  172. Beckow says:
    @AP

    Your words:

    only peasants spoke Czech or Hungarian until mid-19th century

    I am not sure why you narrow it to just Prague, but in any case, peasants generally don’t dwell in cities. No assumption, I quoted what you wrote and it was wrong.

    • Replies: @AP
  173. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2015-pisa-mean-scores-in-perspective/

    White Americans 519
    Slovenia 509
    Germany 508
    France 496
    Russia 492

    Hispanic Americans 465
    Slovak Republic 463

    Bulgaria 440
    Black Americans 432

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  174. AP says:
    @Beckow

    My actual words –

    “Until the mid 19th century in Bohemia, only peasants spoke Slavic – city-dwellers spoke German and nobles spoke French and looked down upon both the German and Czech languages”

    No implication that this was true for all eternity. Do you think that I meant that in the 10th century Bohemian nobles spoke the French language? Will you argue that I meant this?

    So under the Hapsburgs the modern Czech language was created, it became the main urban language, and Czechs attained basically full literacy in it. So mu“Until the mid 19th century in Bohemia, only peasants spoke Slavic – city-dwellers spoke German and nobles spoke French and looked down upon both the German and Czech languages”ersecutin.

    Applying the principle that you accuse others of what you yourself do, it becomes clear that you are trying to deflect from your exposed ignorance regarding Joseph II whom you compared to Hitler and whom you accused of Germanizing Bohemia when the opposite was true – he strongly promoted the local Slavic speech.

    • Replies: @AP
  175. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    They were (and are) Nazi battalions

    Kolomoysky sponsored Right Sector which is not a Nazi battalion, unless you think that Mussolini or Franco were Nazis.

    But to victims of Russian propaganda all far right militants in Ukraine are “Nazis.” (but similar ones in western countries who are friendly towards Russia somehow are not).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  176. AP says:
    @AP

    Something happened with cut and paste on my comment…ignore the second-to-last paragraph.

  177. @AP

    Quintessence of Nazism is “my tribe is the best”. Logical corollary is “all other tribes are enemies”. By both of these criteria the Right sector, as well as battalions like Azov, Aidar, Donbass, Dnipro, and their ilk are Nazis (although only Azov openly uses Nazi symbol). The ideology of none of the presumably friendly to Russia Alt-right parties in Europe includes “my tribe is the best”.

    Also, if you have a good explanation why “Deutschland über alles” is Nazi, while “Ukraine above all” (Україна понад усе) is not, I promise to send you $100.

    • Replies: @AP
  178. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Yes. By descent, Hungarians are more Slavic than are Balkan Slavic-speaking people.

    Does that include Slovenes and northern Croatians?

    Also, aren’t Volga Tatars largely Slavic by ancestry as well?

  179. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Thank you very much!

    Anyway, it’s very interesting that White Americans very slightly outperform Asian Americans. I guess that this confirms La Griffe du Lion’s theory about the Asian population in the US being bimodal in regards to IQ–with one half having an average IQ comparable perhaps to US Ashkenazi Jews while the other half has an average IQ comparable to US Hispanics.

    Also, I will admit that I was wrong and that you were right here. Still, I do wonder if Ukraine is going to perform better than Slovakia on this year’s PISA exam. My guess would be that the two of them are going to perform very close to each other and that if Ukraine will beat out Slovakia, it will do so by a dozen or less points on the PISA exam. Ditto for Slovakia if it will beat out Ukraine on this year’s PISA exam.

  180. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    Paul Magocsi, a Harvard based historian has spent the majority of his career researching Ukrainian and Rusyn history and is considered an authority on the subject puts it this way:

    The ancestors of the Carpatho-Rusyns can be traced to Slavic peoples who began to appear in the valleys of the Carpathian Mountains in small numbers during the fifth and sixth centuries. Their presence is related to the question of the original homeland of the Slavs and the invasion into east-central Europe by nomadic peoples from central Asia. Today most scholars agree that the center of the original homeland for all Slavic peoples was the region just north of the Carpathian Mountains in what is today eastern Poland, southwestern Belarus, and northwestern Ukraine. During the 440s, an Asiatic people known as the Huns crossed through the Slavic homeland and burst into east-central Europe, bringing with them Slavic peoples, some of whom settled in Carpathian Rus’. A century later, one of the tribes living in the original Slavic homeland known as White Croats had begun to settle in the valleys of the northern as well as southern slopes of Carpathian Rus’. In the course of the sixth and early seventh centuries, the White Croats built fortified towns to protect their own people as well as the surrounding countryside which still included some Slavic settlers who had settled there earlier during the Hunnic invasions. During the seventh century, many of the Slavic tribes began to move out in various directions from their original homeland. Whereas some White Croats remained behind in Carpathian Rus’, most moved southward into the Balkan peninsula. Their descendants are the modern Croats.

    http://carpatho-rusyn.org/cra/chap3.html

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Beckow
  181. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Yes. By descent, Hungarians are more Slavic than are Balkan Slavic-speaking people.

    Try proving this put mildly suspect claim.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @AP
  182. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    Circumstances make strange bedfellows. They were (and are) Nazi battalions, and at least two of them were financed by a Jew Kolomoysky. Truth be told, he is a profiteer without scruples first, and a Jew second. Like Soros, he’d sell his co-religionists any time there is profit in it. His main grievance with current Kiev regime is not that it’s Nazi, but that Porky did not give him enough chances to steal. Not because Porky is honest, but because Porky prefers stealing it himself.

    Looks like Kolo is trying to cover all angles. He’s at odds with Poroshenko, while sensing that Zelensky is easier to manage than Tymoshenko. Perhaps Kolo’s business interests necessitate a desire to get 0n better with Russia. At the same time, he feels a need to cover a certain flank, which explains his funding of some Ukrainian nationalist elements.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  183. LH says:
    @reiner Tor

    In Bohemia after 1908 knowledge of the Czech language was mandatory for local civil servants, which practically barred local Germans (who could only speak German) from joining the local bureaucracy, while all educated Czechs with the required education could speak German.

    Since 1880 civil servants were required to answer in the language of request. Internal communication was still in German. Attempt to make Czech language equal also for internal communication in 1897 led to fall of the government. German speakers were strongly against it. The attempt was abandoned.

    In 1905 there was Mährischer Ausgleich, de facto separation of Czechs and Germans in Moravia into political nations. I am not aware of something specific to the year 1908.

    In early 1918 Bohemian Germans proposed to separate German speaking territories of Bohemia into its own crown land Deutschböhmen. This was response to growing calls for Czech independence. The monarchy didn’t have time to implement it, and after the war the separation attempt was suppressed by force.

    ———

    So no, A-H bureaucrats in Germanized areas were not required to know Czech language. Its knowledge was mandatory only later, after establishment of Czechoslovakia.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  184. utu says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menorah_center,_Dnipro
    The Menorah center (Ukrainian: Центр “Менора”, Russian: Центр “Менора”) is a cultural and business center of the Jewish community in Dnipro in Eastern Ukraine. Some sources declare it to be the biggest multifunctional Jewish community center in Europe[1] or in the world.[2] The heart of the complex is the historic Golden Rose central synagogue, built in the 19th century.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Dmitry
  185. Epigon says:
    @AP

    I can quote historical books that claim Lugii, Marcomanii, Vandals, Goths, Gepides, Heruli are all East Germanic people.

    Whereas Slavs inhabited a small, remote area of Pripyat marshes until late 5th century.

    And then, by the half of 7th century, they spread across a vast area from Peloponnese to Bavaria, Holstein, Ladoga and Dnieper.
    Something obviously doesn’t add up – let alone the bizzare idea that entire nations numbering tens/hundreds of thousands of people could migrate and survive for years – do the logistical calculation, daily consumption of food, fodder, water.

    Moreover, not so long ago, the mainstream narrative was that civilization came to Europe from Middle East/Mesopotamia.

    But then you raise the issue of Danube and Kurgan area archeological finds, metallurgy, urbanisation evidenced 5000 to 4000 BC.

    In case you haven’t noticed – most distant history books are fantasy – creative or outright biased interpretations relying on scarce or no primary sources at all, often negating common sense. Similarly, books dealing with significant and recent events are politically and ideologically charged – Clark’s Sleepwalkers book is a terrible book – but it got him a state award and lots of money in Germany. If I asked you on which primary source did that German base his writings on Vladimir, your answer would be? Moreover, Mr.Hack’s writing on White Croats from 450 AD is based on what exactly?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @for-the-record
  186. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    This expert has exactly 0 primary sources and archaelogical finds to back his writing.

    He is a fantasy writer and his authority is arbitrary. The only sources for early history of Slavic peoples are the contemporary Frankish, Italian and Byzantine writings.

    Likewise, a lot can be concluded when Byzantines equating Triballi and Serbs, Franks equate Sorabos of Elbe and Balkans, while Medieval and early Modern period writers equate Vandals, Wends and Venedi. Look up Dalimil’s Chronicle of later ages – the origin of Czechs.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  187. Epigon says:
    @Mikhail

    Balkan Slavs have complex ethnogenesis made even more difficult to decipher due to huge migrations caused by Ottoman conquests and population exchanges between Ottoman, Habsburg and Venetian ruled areas – Christians from Ottoman lands would be invited by Christians, Muslims would get cleansed from liberated areas, Croats fled to San Marino, Burgenland, Slovakia initially (look up Horvat/Horvath surname frequency in Slovakia and Hungary) etc. etc.

    A very significant paleo-Balkan/“Illyrian”/Thracian component is present, outweighing “Slavic” (even though strictly speaking, there is no such thing) in many areas of Balkan peninsula.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  188. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Someone doesn’t believe in DNA.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  189. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Quintessence of Nazism is “my tribe is the best”.

    It is essentially “Germanics are best.” It is modeled, ironically, on interpretations of Judaism albeit mixed with 19th and early 20th century biology, with Germanics playing the role of Jews. Yet one would not call hardcore Zionists, or ancient Israelites, “Nazis.”

    By both of these criteria the Right sector,

    Right Sector are state-based nationalists that welcome Jews or other non-tribal members who support the nationalist state. Recall that Mussolini had openly Jewish generals. If Right Sector are Nazis than Mussolini was a Nazi.

    The ideology of none of the presumably friendly to Russia Alt-right parties in Europe includes “my tribe is the best”.

    France’s National Front is not different from Right Sector from this perspective.

    “Deutschland über alles” is Nazi

    Written in 1841. So in your imagination there were Nazis in 1841?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  190. utu says:

    The “Deutschland über alles” meaning is that Germany is what you should love/care about more than anything else in the world “Über alles in der Welt.” It has no chauvinistic tone in it. It was a poem written when Germany was being unified. It is about unity and identity. Italian anthem written six years later had the same themes for the same reasons.

    Many non-Germans think that “Deutschland über alles” means “We are better than you” particularly in the Eastern Europe where their national pride often is reactive and defensive so they feel easily dissed.

    • Agree: Epigon, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AP
  191. Epigon says:

    It would be interesting to compare Ukrainian “Nazis” to ideology of White Russians, Black Hundreds, and modern Russian nationalists.
    There are bona fide Ukrainian Nazis, Neonazis dispersed among Maidan paramilitaries and in UA army, but there are few of them relatively speaking.

    • Agree: AP
  192. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Whereas Slavs inhabited a small, remote area of Pripyat marshes until late 5th century.

    And then, by the half of 7th century, they spread across a vast area from Peloponnese to Bavaria, Holstein, Ladoga and Dnieper.

    It wasn’t that small and spread over 1.5 centuries was not unreasonable:

    • Replies: @Epigon
  193. AP says:
    @utu

    The “Deutschland über alles” meaning is that Germany is what you should love/care about more than anything else in the world “Über alles in der Welt.” It has no chauvinistic tone in it. It was a poem written when Germany was being unified. It is about unity and identity. Italian anthem written six years later had the same themes for the same reasons.

    Indeed. Those nationalists were Romantic and liberal.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  194. @AP

    Pest and Buda were certainly German cities (already before the Ottoman occupation), as was Székesfehérvár (before the Ottomans it had been mostly Hungarian, I think), many cities in present day Slovakia (or at least mixed with a heavy German presence) or Transylvania (though some areas there were entirely German).

  195. Gerard2 says:
    @utu

    How is your post relevant to here? You can’t just post the images without any opinion comment to go with it

    • Replies: @utu
  196. Epigon says:
    @AP

    That map is wrong, very wrong.

    So, the population of wetlands between Pripyat and Dniester in 5th century AD somehow ravages Balkans and Greece already throughout the entire 6th century AD? This is found in works of contemporary Byzantine chronicles, and Byzantine Emperors and generals had to deal with Slavic threat and later on, combined Avar and Slavic threat in 7th century.

    The entire Balkans area up to Peloponnese was considered Sklavinia in early 7th century.

    During this same time, Slavs expand far to the east and the north, and reach Elbe in the West (Franks note late 6th and 7th century Wendish presence in lands arround Elbe) and dominate southern Baltic coast.

    And like a miracle, the previously historically marginal and unimportant Slavs come to dominate both demographically and militarily the area once supposedly inhabited by East Germanic people. It’s almost a 100% overlap.

    That is impossible. By all accounts and archeological finds the primitive, low population density proto-Slavic area and culture couldn’t have produced the manpower and forces involved. Dark Age historiography is a joke, so called Berlin school of historiography is a fantasy.

    • Replies: @LH
  197. @Epigon

    Clark’s Sleepwalkers book is a terrible book

    Can you please expand on this, as my reviews I have seen have been quite positive. Thanks.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  198. @LH

    I stand corrected. I read about these issues several years ago.

    However. Do you thinks Czechs would not have wanted their own country, if knowledge of Czech was made obligatory?

    • Replies: @LH
  199. Epigon says:
    @AP

    Yeah, about those Geman “liberals”….

    German Liberals of 19th century were explicitly chauvinistic towards Slavs, both Polabian and Poles – their Liberalism has nothing to do with modern understanding of the term.

    So if one is trying to find the root of Hitlerite thought on Slavs, he should go no further than Hegel and German 19th century liberal politicians and ideologues.

    The “liberal” German “theologian” Naumann wrote a book on Germans conquering and eradicating/assimilating everything up to Bulgars, whom he considered dependable vassals under a German dynasty.

  200. @Epigon

    look up Horvat/Horvath surname frequency in Slovakia and Hungary

    That’s interesting. The most common Hungarian surnames list:

    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leggyakoribb_magyar_vezet%C3%A9knevek_list%C3%A1ja

    Of which the following mean an ethnicity:

    Tóth (archaic for Slovak)
    Horváth (Croat)
    Németh (German)
    Oláh (archaic for Romanian, though in that case there’s also a type of Gypsy who are also called “oláh”)
    Rácz (archaic for Serb)
    Török (Turk)
    Magyar (Hungarian)
    Orosz (Russian – possibly Ruthenian etc.)
    Lengyel (Polish)
    Székely (or Szekler in English, a Hungarian group in Transylvania, not very different from other Hungarians, but at least they have their own name)

    I don’t know what the “frequency” (“gyakoriság” on the Wikipedia page) numbers mean (the number from a sample of unknown size), but I guess they are good for comparison.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Beckow
  201. Adrian E. says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Turkey is theoretically a EU membership candidate, and for some odd political/diplomatic reasons that candidate status has not been cancelled completely, but that process is frozen. Partly, the same economic reasons for which Ukraine will not be accepted as a member are also the reason why Turkey won’t become a member. Furthermore, Turkey’s population is so large (and growing) that it would fundamentally change the nature of the EU if it became a member, and even those who now reject the idea of a danger of “Islamization” of Europe would have to reconsider if Turkey became a full member. All existing EU member states would have to agree to Turkey joining, and the likelihood that this will happen is very close to zero.

    The probability of Turkey becoming a EU member is extremely low, probably even lower than the probability of Ukraine becoming a EU member (but because unlike in the case of Turkey, which has had a candidate status for a long time, granting it to Ukraine would be a signal that the EU actually wants Ukraine as a member, candidate status will certainly not be granted to Ukraine).

    The expansion of the EU to the East is quite controversial, and many people think it was a mistake. Because of the relatively close integration, this has meant that lots of money were poored into these new member countries (e.g. Poland). At that time, the EU was more optimistic, countries like Poland, the Czech Republic, and Hungary are much closer to the heart of Central Europe, and Ukraine is even much larger and poorer than Poland. The EU has enough economic problems of its own. The likelihood that it will invite Ukraine in the next 10-20 years to join is close to zero.

    The EU might sooner or later accept one or the other tiny Balkan country as a member, but apart from that, EU expansion is finished for the near and medium-term future.

    Of course, the EU can develop stronger relations with Ukraine even if it is not a member. That would not have to be a contradiction with good Ukrainian-Russian relations. The best option for Ukraine would be that it can have good relations with both Russia and the EU. The neocons and their many allies, of course, don’t want that and want to present all these poor countries with an either-or choice, but it remains to be seen whether they can uphold their influence.

  202. Epigon says:
    @for-the-record

    The entire premise of the book is moronic and low-brow.

    Empires don’t “blunder” into a war. Things of great importance don’t happen by accident. The stage for showdown was set at least since 1908 Annexation Crisis, if not earlier at 1878 congress of Berlin.

    To start with, the 1903 coup the author deals with is misrepresented and outright falsified, with key (foreign) backers and details left out – the man who was placed on the throne was a Freemason, a Franco-Prussian war veteran of Foreign Legion, sentenced to death in Serbia in absentia and a fan of John Stuart Mill who printed a translation of “On Liberty”. His view of 1914 Sarajevo assassination does not correspond to reality.
    The other Serb state, Montenegro, was actually more implicated, and interestingly, so was Italy, through its Montenegrin Queen (an Italian had already murdered the Empress Elizabeth, wife of Franz Joseph I) – the 1903 coup saw cooperation of two intermarried Petrović and Karađorđević dynasties move against ruling Obrenović – prior to the regicide, there were earlier attempts, most notably Toplica revolt and 1885 unrest after Serb defeat against Bulgarians and Austrian ultimatum which stopped Bulgarians.

    As has been demonstrably proven by archival records, Austro-Hungary was itching for a war against Serbia since at least 1905 – the Customs war and first plans for invasion of Serbia transpired then. The author of the plan would be Austrian Chief of General Staff in continuity, apart from a short period in 1911-1912 when Morocco crisis was in motion.

    Germany actually urged Austro-Hungary to invade Serbia in 1912 (Imperial War Council meeting of December 12th) and bring Russia into war. The motives were clear – Balkan Alliance successes in the First Balkan War (the Alliance was a Russian effort) threatened to seal of any German influence, throw out Turks out of Europe, and leave a unified Orthodox Balkans dominated by Russia. At the same time, the announced Russian Military reform pushed the Germans into panic.

    Their only hope for victory in a two-front war against France and Russia was rapid defeat of France before backward and inefficent but vast Russian Armies could mobilise, organise and attack them. With the announced reforms starting in 1913 and ending in 1917, even the modified Schlieffen plan would be a failure. In reality, Germans failed in 1914 with only partially improved, but still deeply flawed Russian Army taking away crucial German forces away from the attack on France, too soon.

    Tirpitz and Navy were however nowhere near ready for war. Germany was significantly behind in dreadnought-type battleships and battlecruisers, submarine program was in infancy, so the British who would definitely intervene in accordance with their continental balance of power policy, would have no issues with blockading Germany, conquering German overseas holdings and ending German Empire.
    In short, the Germans were faced with a dilemma Hitler would face in the future – attack now with a chance of victory, or skip this opportunity and risk facing a much stronger adversaries in the future.
    This is taking into account the fact that in the future, Britain wouldn’t probably intervene in favour of French and Russians – still, German chances of victory would be even slimmer.

    On top of this, you have the French revanchism since 1871. The entire French loan, investment and assistance scheme to Russia since 1890s was motivated by French desire to make the uplifted Russia a credible counterbalance to Germany.

    Our esteemed author pretends none of this happened, no primary sources exist. So he tells us that foolish and shortsighted monarchs went to war for stupid, terroristic savage Serbs’ sake.

  203. Mr. Hack says:
    @Epigon

    The Croats are mentioned several times within Nestor’s ‘Primary Chronicle’. That they were a large Slavic tribe that played a prominent role in the ethnogenesis of Ukrainians, Poles, Czechs and of course the Dalmatian Croats is an accepted fact. There are many excavations in Western Ukraine known to be of Croat origin including gords, kurgans, burial mounds and tombs, one of the largest sites is near Stilsko. This site is quite impressive and includes 50 settlements and a fortress including a defensive line of 10 km. This site is especially valuable because it also includes one of the only complete Slavic religious temples dedicated to the god Hors. This was an active Croat center from the 8th – 10th centuries. I’m definitely going to visit this site the next time I visit Ukraine. Until then, even a doubting Thomas will have to find this photo sufficient:

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  204. Epigon says:
    @reiner Tor

    Serbian Principality was de iure a vassal of Hungary (King Imre), and Serbian despotate was a vassal state of Hungary. Geza II Arpad was born to a Serbian princess mother, who brought Rama (Bosna) as dowry.

    Serbian despot Stefan received lands from Hungarian kings – Satmar, Nemet, Beckerek, Debrecen and lands in Tamis County.
    The other Serb noble, Mrnjavčević Dmitar was Count of Zarand County and Captain of Vilagos. Serbian despots in exile would receive lands from Hungarian and later on Habsburg kings and settle Serbs in present-day Slavonia and Vojvodina.

    Hunyadi Black Army – mostly Serbs. (G)Hussars and Hajduks – Serb refugees originally, later Haiduk Infantry of Poland and Hungary is not the same thing.

    Szentendre was one centre of Serb settlement in Hungary – 88% Serb in 1720.
    The other centre was Buda, including the period of Ottoman rule. At Csepel Island, there is a settlement Racz Kovin – founded by refugees from Kovin.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  205. @Mr. Hack

    There are many excavations in Western Ukraine known to be of Croat origin

    How do they know that they were Croats? There’s always this problem with ancient Magyar sites, the graves don’t speak, and nomad cultures were pretty similar, so until recently they had exactly zero idea how and where those Magyars spent their time in the Eastern European steppes before arriving in Hungary in 895. (Now with DNA and the most modern methods they can track it better.)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  206. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    You put together the written chronicles plus the vast amount of settlements where these tribes are written about and voila, 2 + 2 = 4. Do you know of any prominent historians or archeologists that doubt the veracity of White Croat settlements in Western Ukraine? Maybe the Dalmatian Croats are a hoax too? 🙂

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @reiner Tor
  207. @Epigon

    Serbian Principality was de iure a vassal of Hungary

    Though these usually lasted at most a generation. Romanian principalities started out as Hungarian vassals sometime in the 14th century, but by the 15th they were effectively independent – though they would’ve liked if Hungary was their suzerain and protected them from the Ottomans. Which Hungary tried, but wasn’t very successful, obviously, since the Ottomans eventually subdued them.

  208. utu says:
    @Gerard2

    ” You can’t just post the images without any opinion comment to go with it.”

    – No, I can. I thought it was a propos. Is this thread about the election in Ukraine? Isn’t it true that Zelensky is Kolomoisky’s puppet?

    https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/giant-jcc-empowers-jews-in-ukraine/
    Non-Jews sometimes refer to the center as the Kolomoisky building — Igor Kolomoisky, a Jewish billionaire, funded the building with fellow Ukrainian billionaire Gennady Bogolyubov, the president of the Jewish community of Dnepropetrovsk.

  209. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    If we go by Primary Chronicle, those Croats are Pecheneg allies and enemies of Rus/Slavs.

    Non-Slavic identity of Croats wouldn’t be a surprise – the Avar, Kutrigur, Ogur hypothesis have been proposed.
    Interestingly, Croat origin myth makes a distinction between Slavs and Croats.

    Maybe the Dalmatian Croats are a hoax too?

    Franks and Byzantines went to war over supposed Croat heartland of Dalmatia in 800-814.
    No mention of Croats.
    Franks were also faced with a large revolt in Pannonia – the leader fled to Serbs, who control large parts of Dalmatia, and killed one of their dukes through deceit.
    Royal Frankish Annals:
    “…Exercitus de Italia propter Lindeviticum bellum conficiendum in Pannoniam missus est, ad cuius adventum Lindevitus, Siscia Civitate relicta, ad Sorabos (quae natio magnam Dalmatiae partem obtinere dicitur) fugiendo se contulit, et uno ex Ducibus eorum, a quo receptus est, per dolum interf ecto, Civitatem eius in suam redegit ditionem, missis tamen ad exercitum Imperatoris Legatis suis, ad eius praesentiam se velle venire promisit.”

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  210. @Mr. Hack

    Now I read a long article by a Hungarian historian about the Rusyns. He writes that usually Rusyns are considered more recent arrivals, because most of their subgroups (he names those) have their (larger) counterparts on the other side of the Carpathians. With the implication being that they came from there.

    However, he observes that there’s at least one subgroup (he names it) which has no such counterpart. His implication is that it must have been autochthonous. So his conclusion is that while many Rusyns are the descendants of relatively recent arrivals, not all are, and there must have been some back and forth movement of people over the centuries.

    Anyway, I’m sure you’re aware how different findings at different locations had been touted as graves of ancient Magyars, when it now appears that those were not.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  211. inertial says:
    @Beckow

    Nah, I don’t expect better Russian-Ukrainian government-to-government relations. For one thing, Zelensky will have to prove that he is not “pro-Russian.” Besides, Kolomoisky will Kolomoisky and so will other oligarchs. This doesn’t matter much. Nothing that Ukraine can do by itself can hurt Russia now.

    Relationship between the people is far more important in the long term. Even under the current regime, Ukrainians are slowly warming toward Russia. Absent crazy propaganda, this process will speed up.

    Will Zelensky ease up on propaganda? Hard to tell. If he and/or his handlers understand who his voters are they must understand on some level that anti-Russian hysteria helps his enemies.

  212. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    Magocsi, whom I cite in reply 182 corroborates exactly what your Hungarian historian states:

    Slavs from the north (Galicia) and east (who actually arrived from Podolia via the mountain passes of Transylvania) continued to settle in small numbers in various parts of the Carpathian borderland, which the Hungarians and other medieval writers referred to as the Marchia Ruthenorum – the Rus’ March. These new immigrants, from the north and east, like the Slavs already living in Carpathian Rus’, had by the eleventh century come to be known as the people of Rus’, or Rusyns. The term Rusyn also meant someone who was a Christian of the Eastern (Byzantine) rite.

    Rusyn migration from the north and east, in particular from Galicia, continued until the sixteenth century and even later. This was possible because the mountains, especially in western Carpathian Rus’ (the Lemko Region), were not very high and were crossable through several passes.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  213. Mr. Hack says:
    @Epigon

    Perhaps the Croats hadn’t settled in Panonia yet in 814? You’re not doubting that they eventually did settle there, are you? 🙂

    As to the Avar origins of the White Croats, it’s interesting to note that if this is true, they very quickly
    adopted the Slavic tongue and started to worship Slavic gods? This type of conversion usually only occurs at the point of a sword??…

  214. @Beckow

    One example that completely refutes you: south-western Slovakia, the valleys of rivers Vah and Nitra, is a densely populated, fertile region

    Yes, I forgot about it. I read about these issues several years ago, so yes, maybe they don’t consider those regions uninhabited. It’s difficult to tell where was the gyepű, so it’s pretty much possible that those areas were not part of it.

    Let me explain why substantial parts of the country were considered uninhabited.

    Gyepű was a usual defense of nomadic peoples, they left the immediate border regions of their countries intentionally uninhabited, called gyepűelve, and tried to get expel people who happened to live there. Then the regions just behind it, the gyepű proper, were inhabited by tribes designated as border guards. That way, when an enemy army came, they had to move through first uninhabited regions with no population, patrolled by the border guards, then the lands of the border guard tribes themselves.

    Now, we cannot know which regions were those exactly, but there were surely some such regions. There are multiple non-Hungarian sources for their existence well into the 12th century.

    So back to the original point. You wrote that medieval Hungary was a mishmash of multiple ethnicities, for example a heavily Turkish (?) nobility. My point was that the area where Hungarians have lived until this very day was already populated by Hungarians, whereas some of the other areas were either uninhabited, or then inhabited by Hungarians. As a corollary, medieval Hungary was definitely less multicultural than Hungary in 1910. It was, by all accounts, predominantly ethnically Hungarian. Although, ethnically Hungarian was pretty different from the original conquering Magyars.

    When we study our history, ‘Uhorsko’ (or Hungary) and Magyar are not the same. In English it gets lumped together.

    But it also gets lumped together in Hungarian. There was a historical state, whose laws had continuity (with a part disruption 1849-67), whose elites had continuity, and they were predominantly ethnically Magyars, and they called their country Magyarország (literally Magyar Country). Then it fell apart, and there was a small rump Hungary, which still called itself Magyarország, had the same set of laws, same official language (it had been changed from Latin to Hungarian in 1844 – there was continuity even according to the Slovaks at the time, it didn’t suddenly become a different country that year either), same elite, etc., and now you call it something else. That’s not a very good understanding of history.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  215. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    scholars agree that the original homeland for all Slavic peoples was the region just north of the Carpathian Mountains in what is today eastern Poland, southwestern Belarus, and northwestern Ukraine.

    This theory originate in the 19th century – mostly among Czech historians in Prague (Palacky, Niederle), and others picked it up. It was an attempt to find an acceptable explanation for the very large number of Slavs in the region without offending German sensibilities too much. Germans really insisted on ‘this was our home‘ – and from Joseph II to Hitler they were rather pushy about it. It is jokingly referred to as the ‘Pinsk marshes theory – millions of Slav speaking people suddenly emerged out of the remote marshes deep in eastern Europe and somehow within 200 years took over around 40% of Europe. And, mind you, without any historical record describing it. Incredible and very sneaky (maybe Brennan genetic theories are on to something :).

    Nothing in historical documents describes this. What documents say is exactly the opposite: the Primary Chronicle specifically says that Slav tribes originate and spread from the Carpathian basin (it says from ‘Danube’). Medieval Polish, Czech, Frankish, papal and Byzantine documents all say that Slavs were originally living in the broader Carpathian regions and were known by different names at different times. They moved down south to the Balkans starting in the 5th century, but the original ‘homeland’ was clearly much larger and more longer lasting – not just the east Poland-western Ukraine, but at least the northern half of the Carpathian basin and today’s Poland and E Germany.

    There are also linguistic, geographic and DNA reasons why the original homeland was larger and further to the south and west: local rivers and mountains have Slavic names, old tales of ‘bogatyrs’ have them live in rocky mountains and killing ‘dragons’ in caves. Slavs were farmers and farming spread from the Carpathian basin towards north-east and not vice-versa.

    As we get more DNA data, the more autochthonous explanation looks more likely – the ancient DNA shows continuity with today’s population in the Carpathian basin. There were movements by some tribes, but the German-centric explanations don’t look right. They exist to please a certain kind of ‘dungeons and dragons‘ people who like to live their mounted knights fantasies and would like the damn Slavs to know their place.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  216. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    …they were predominantly ethnically Magyars

    That was only true in the core Magyar areas in the middle, and in Transylvania. Croats had their own nobility and in Slovakia the nobility was mostly of Slovak origin with German, Magyar, Czech, even Polish in-mixture. They had names like Ctibor, Poznan, Jesensky, etc…- clearly not Magyar. They spoke Latin or Slovak/Czech, sometimes German. There was a lot of variance, but the documents by nobility that we have from 17. and 18. centuries in Slovak regions were not using Magyar language.

    The issue is that most Magyars have a blind spot and refuse to acknowledge that Habsburg Empire and its eastern half – Hungary or what we call ‘Uhorsko’, and so do Czechs, Croats and Poles – was a multi-national country where only in 19th century nationalist tensions emerged and for a while Magyars managed to assert their primacy from Budapest. Then they lost in WWI. We have a shared history, but it wasn’t ‘Magyar‘ history – it was our joint history under mostly Austrian kings, where most regions lived relatively independent lives and spoke their own languages. What ties us together was Latin and to some extent German, not Magyar. Even as late as mid-19th century there were complaints at Slovak county assemblies that ‘nobody could understand Magyar language‘. They demanded to use Slovak (Czech), German or Latin.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  217. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    Except for attributing the quote in your reply to me, I think that it was from AP, I have no problem with your argument.

  218. LH says:
    @Epigon

    And like a miracle, the previously historically marginal and unimportant Slavs come to dominate both demographically and militarily the area once supposedly inhabited by East Germanic people. It’s almost a 100% overlap.

    Based on polen analysis, archaeologists found massive depopulation of East Bohemian lowlands during the Migration period (4th/5th century). Agricultural land turned into wilderness. The Slavs arrived around year 530.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  219. @Mikhail

    I wouldn’t trust Kolomoysky any more than Porky. Both are scum ready to commit any crime for profit.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  220. @AP

    The key tenet of German Nazism is that Germans are superior to others, the key tenet of Jewish Nazism is that Jews are superior to others, the key tenet of Ukrainian Nazism is that Ukrainians are superior to others, and so on. Every nation has its own Nazis, but in very few countries Nazis are in power.

    Written in 1841

    Are you telling me that Nazism appeared out of nowhere in the twentieth century? If you believe that, I have a mountain to sell you.

    • Replies: @AP
  221. LH says:
    @reiner Tor

    However. Do you thinks Czechs would not have wanted their own country, if knowledge of Czech was made obligatory?

    Hypothetical success of 1897 language proposals by Badeni’s government wouldn’t change too much. It was issue affecting small class of bureaucrats. The internal Czech-German conflict was already way too strong. Some kind of independence, or attempt to obtain independence was probably inevitable.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  222. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    Székely is an interesting name. Weren’t Szeklers also border guards? We have a name ‘Cikel’ (very uncommon) from Szekely.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  223. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Someone doesn’t believe in DNA.

    Depends on how it’s interpreted, with US presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren as a reference point.

    Unlike someone else, I don’t jump to conclusions based on a limited DNA study, purporting to reflect a whole group. This point leads to how many (probably most) Hungarians, Serbs and others would be surprised by your (put mildly) suspect claim that Hungarians are more Slavic than Serbs.

  224. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    There’s good reason to be suspect of both, while observing that Porky’s effort of going full throttle svido has backfired, with Kolo perhaps taking a somewhat more reasoned approach, which looks to put him in greater influence, in a way that might actually end up improving Russian-Ukrainian relations and Ukraine’s economy.

  225. Beckow says:
    @LH

    …archaeologists found massive depopulation of East Bohemian lowlands during the Migration period (4th/5th century). Agricultural land turned into wilderness. The Slavs arrived around year 530.

    Yes, to Bohemia. Bohemia is not a part of the Carpathian basin and it wasn’t where Slavs lived before 6th century – I believe Celts and then German tribes like Markomans and Lombards lived there before they migrated south and west (Bavaria and Lombardy).

    The Czech settlement of Bohemia was late and it probably happened in two waves: one from southern Poland and one – more linguistically dominant – from middle Danube moving up the Morava river valley. The very specific Czech ‘r‘ sound is only found outside Czechia in a small region in south-central Slovakia where there are also a few localities called Czech or Czechy. It could be a coincidence, or possibly a later settlement. But the extreme closeness of Czech and Slovak languages (in most respects almost identical), and a relative distance between both of them and Polish or Ukrainian, would suggest that the main part of Slavs who moved in the 6th century to Bohemia came from the middle Danube region. The Ra1a DNA group is also identical.

  226. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    I read about this story a few years ago.

    Just an overly large but uninteresting Orthodox Jewish community centre which looks like an office building from 1920s New York.

    However, the story of its funding is a bit insightful, because Gennady Timchenko was originally going to jointly fund construction of the building with Pinchuk and Kolomoisky.

    Businessmen donate to each other’s personal projects, probably as a way to ease relations between one to other, when they are investing in the same businesses (or for Kolomoisky, usually it seems he is stealing money from more powerful oligarchs than himself).

    So there is an example of how seisimically everything changed with Ukraine – when you see before the conflict how Timchenko was funding their Chabad centre, and now a few years later Timchenko is a main enemy of Kiev as well as Washington.

    cafes, conference halls, banquet halls, a luxury hotel, youth hostel,

    Wikipedia’s “largest Jewish community centre”, does not look so impressive in video.
    “Luxury hotel” looks “midrange”, except it is kosher for Jews and Chabad rabbis probably. And the budget kosher hotel, is really “Spartan”.
    .

    They obviously design the building before Euromaidan, and were showing off how they could afford a huge building .

    Then afterwards, they don’t have any idea what to use a large building for Chabad, where there are probably a a couple of thousand religious Jews in the city.

    Something funny is Chabad seems to split into different branches after the conflict. So now there is some kind of Ukraine Chabad for oligarchs in Ukraine, which is separate from the one funded by oligarchs in Russia.

  227. @Beckow

    They were border guards, yes. For the past eight centuries they have lived in the southeastern part of Transylvania (i.e. the farthest from the core of the Hungarian settlement area), and in Hungarian national mythology they are considered to be some kind of über-Hungarians. They are thought to have been the vanguard of the original Magyars in the 9th century, or, even to have stayed since the time of the Huns (who are simply considered to be Hungarians themselves). Anyway, their own mythology considered themselves to be descendants of the Huns.

    Now the facts:

    – they are unconnected to the Huns, as are Hungarians in general (though it’s possible that some of the ancestors of the first Hungarian kings had been the descendants of Attila or something, since the discovery of the Genghis chromosome, it’s certainly not impossible)
    – they didn’t come earlier than other Hungarians
    – it’s not even sure if they even existed as a group until the 10th or 11th centuries
    – they were only settled at their present location eight centuries ago (not earlier)

    Oh, and that’s the major exception from what I wrote previously, that all areas with a Hungarian population now were already populated a thousand years ago, because their area obviously wasn’t.

  228. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    With Norilsk – the two oligarchs which own the company, Potanin and Deripaska both hate each other, and fight to control the company.

    Putin ordered Abramovich to mediate their dispute, by buying the shares which balanced between Potanin and Deripaska.

    Some years later, Abramovich tried to give his shares to Potanin, which would mean Potanin would have a larger share than Deripaska

    And then Deripaska won in London court against Abramovich, stopping him giving shares to .Potanin.

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-6196909/Abramovich-loses-High-Court-spat-Deripaska-control-Russias-biggest-mining-company.html

    And then this story is still continuing in London this year.but complicated by sanctions
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-27/potanin-plans-talks-with-rusal-over-cutting-nornickel-dividend

    So the people of Norilsk don’t just freeze their ass and destroy their lungs to make money for Potanin and Deripaska, but also for the legal industry and lawyers in London.

    Atlantic Magazine has made an artistic documentary about the city problems:

  229. @reiner Tor

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherds_of_the_Romans

    According to an early 13th-century report by one Friar Ricardus, a lost Hungarian chronicle—The Deeds of the Christian Hungarians—stated that Hungary had been called the pasturing lands of the Romans before the Magyars conquered it. The identification of Hungary as the one-time pascua Romanorum (“the Romans’ pasturing lands”) was also mentioned in the Rhymed Chronicle of Stična from the 1240s, in Thomas the Archdeacon’s History of the Bishops of Slanona and Split, which was written after 1250, and in the Anonymi descriptio Europae orientalis from the early 14th century. On the other hand, Simon of Kéza and the 14th-century Hungarian chronicles did not refer to Hungary as the Romans’ pasturing land. Instead, they wrote of the “shepherds and husbandmen” or the “farm-workers and shepherds” of the Roman citizens of Pannonia, Pamphylia, Macedonia, Dalmatia and Phrygia who stayed behind when their masters fled from these Roman provinces after the arrival of the Huns. Both Simon of Kéza and the 14th-century chronicles identified these “shepherds and husbandmen” as Vlachs.

    In truth, most of history is being rewritten, usually by the loudest revisionist, so I can see that page being ‘corrected’.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  230. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I don’t think Zelensky is controlled by Kolomoisky, except as employee for his channel, who was then promoted by Kolomoisky opportunistically.

    Rather Kolomoisky has an obvious motivation to support Zelensky, which is to displace Poroshenko.

    But Kolomoisky will probably never be able to regain PrivatBank after its nationalization. So he will continue to be a problem to Kiev, even if the next president is friendly to him, and has a debt to him.

    Kolomoisky just seems lucky he is not in prison, or at least exiled without his assets. He seems a thousand times stupider than Akhmetov, but somehow he is still not in prison, and has not been successfully poisoned yet with any exotic chemicals.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  231. @Mr. Hack

    Rusyn migration from the north and east, in particular from Galicia, continued until the sixteenth century and even later.

    Beckow was wondering how Hungarian historians could be so moronic to believe that there was a mass immigration of Rusyns into Subcarpathia. Now I guess we can all agree that at least regarding Rusyns such mass immigration did take place over the centuries. The only possible contention is whether before such mass immigration there had already been a Rusyn population or not.

    By the way, it’s also documented that just after the various Turkish wars and then the freedom fight (abortive war of independence) of Ferenc Rákóczi II, masses of Romanians fled Phanariot rule (which was introduced around the time Rákóczi lost in 1711), and were welcomed by the Hungarian nobles who desperately needed serfs. So the Hungarian population never fully recovered, but partly got replaced by Romanians.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  232. @Dmitry

    Kolomoysky is more risk-taking adventurist than Akhmetov. However, I wouldn’t count chickens before they are hatched. By his pro-Kiev position Akhmetov lost quite a bit in DPR/LPR. His net worth went down a lot (in contrast to Porky, whose net worth soared). I think in ~5 years we can compare what Kolomoysky and Akhmetov control to decide whose tactics were smarter. It would be also important to see who is hanged by that time.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  233. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Lol, of course, she did not remain in Ukraine

    She escaped to Ukraine, only because of criminal cases against her for Ukraine activism, which is idiotic on both sides. But after a short time in Ukraine, and she made it to her real destination – Germany, where she attained citizenship on political asylum.

    She can continue Ukraine activism, in civilized conditions i.e. in Germany.

    Posted by Klaus H. Walter on Sunday, March 20, 2016

    • Replies: @melanf
  234. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    In part 4, Magocsi reminds us that Ukrainian/Hungarian relations were not always marred by distrust and bickering:

    many Rusyns joined Hungary’s independent Transylvanian princes in their struggle against the Habsburgs. For instance, during the last great anti-Habsburg rebellion, the armies of the Transylavanian Hungarian Prince Ferenc II Rakoczi (who was raised in the farnily castle of Mukacevo) was made up largely of Rusyn peasants. Even though Rakoczi was finally defeated in 1711, a Hungarian legend arose about Rusyns and how they proved to be a people most faithful (gens fidelissima) to “their” prince and country. Another result of the defeat of Rakoczi was the full implementation of Austrian Habsburg rule throughout all of Hungary.

    http://carpatho-rusyn.org/cra/chap4.html

    Prince Rakocsi, like the Great Moldovian Hospodar Stephen earlier, learned to like and respect his Ruthenian subjects, and they in turn supported him loyally and fought valiantly in many of his battles. I think that this is part of the spirit of modern Ukrainians (Ruthenians of the past) looking for a good place in Europe today.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @reiner Tor
  235. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Akhmetov lost most of his fortune, as his assets were nationalized in Donbass. But he reportedly regained a lot of wealth and is still by far the richest in Ukraine.

    Kolomoisky lost much of his fortune in Crimea, when his assets in Crimea were nationalized. They’re still auctioning some of his former properties this year in Crimea.
    https://investigator.org.ua/news-2/213984/

    Kolomoysky is more risk-taking adventurist than Akhmetov… It would be also important to see who is hanged by that time.

    Another thing is Kolomoisky is reportedly defrauding other oligarchs. He must have a lot of security

    • Replies: @AP
  236. Ok, I banned Gerard2 again. Got tired of removing his moronic and abusive comments.

    • Agree: Adam
    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  237. Mr. Hack says:

    In part 4, Magocsi reminds us that Ukrainian/Hungarian relations were not always marred by distrust and bickering:

    many Rusyns joined Hungary’s independent Transylvanian princes in their struggle against the Habsburgs. For instance, during the last great anti-Habsburg rebellion, the armies of the Transylavanian Hungarian Prince Ferenc II Rakoczi (who was raised in the farnily castle of Mukacevo) was made up largely of Rusyn peasants. Even though Rakoczi was finally defeated in 1711, a Hungarian legend arose about Rusyns and how they proved to be a people most faithful (gens fidelissima) to “their” prince and country. Another result of the defeat of Rakoczi was the full implementation of Austrian Habsburg rule throughout all of Hungary.

    http://carpatho-rusyn.org/cra/chap4.html

    Prince Rakocsi, like the Great Moldovian Hospodar Stephen earlier, learned to like and respect his Ruthenian people, and they in turn supported him loyally and valiantly in his many battles. I think that this is part of the spirit of modern Ukrainians (Ruthenians of the past) looking for a good place in Europe today.

  238. @AP

    “Vladimir had a Slavic name”

    So did a lot of Scandinavians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Valdemar I of Denmark or Waldemar the Great (1131–1182)
    Valdemar II of Denmark or Waldemar the Victorious (1170–1241)
    Valdemar the Young (1209–1231)
    Valdemar III of Denmark (1314–1364)
    Waldemar I, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1368)
    Waldemar II, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1371)
    Valdemar IV of Denmark or Waldemar Otherday (c. 1320–1375)
    Waldemar III, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1391)
    Waldemar of Sweden (disambiguation), several people
    Valdemar of Denmark (bishop) (1157/1158–1235 or 1236)
    Prince Valdemar of Denmark (1858–1939)

    For the record, Wiktionary and Svensk etymologisk ordbok (1922) say that Valdemar entered Swedish and Danish from Proto-Slavic Vladimir, and not the other way around. Interestingly, the opposite is true of the names Oleg/Olga and Igor, which entered Old East Slavic from Old Norse Helge/Helga and Ingvar, respectively. There seems to have been some give-and-take, then.

  239. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    She escaped to Ukraine, only because of criminal cases against her for Ukraine activism, which is idiotic on both sides.

    Catherine Maldon was fined 15,000 rubles, after she (with “Pro-Ukrainian activism”) disrupted the performance in the theater. In this case, the Russian Themis is completely right

  240. Dmitry says:

    It looks like she was to have soon more cases, probably as a result of various other provocations and fake storiesshe told.
    https://ovdinfo.org/express-news/2015/02/06/k-antivoennoy-aktivistke-prishli-domoy-dlya-prinuditelnogo-doprosa

    Also you can see in YouTube, she says she went to Ukraine, because was “being threatened” and the police had taken her computer and were investigating her computer activity.

    Anyway, she seems successful with her mission of “Ukraine activism” – to live in Germany. In Ukraine, she only had to live less than a year.

    She was living in Germany from beginning of 2016, and she officially attained political asylum to 2017.

  241. Anon[181] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    There are cases of Hungary-born Jews send to concentration camps by Hungarian police, who, decades later, started claiming their life under Horthy was the best time of their life. There is a case of a fellow moving there in the nineties from the US. For those who don’t have this sort of mental problems, it’s hard to understand the mechanism. But it’s impossible to deny this Stockholm syndrome. Of course, Rusyns wouldn’t be excepted from it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  242. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anon

    By and large, for most Rusyns, life within Uhorsko-Rus was hard and bitter, basically peasants trying to stave off hunger and disease. It was the poorest of all Ukrainian ethnic territotories for most of its history, probably even including up to this day. I’m pretty sure that life for Hungarian peasant wasn’t a whole lot better in Hungary either.

  243. @Beckow

    That was only true in the core Magyar areas in the middle, and in Transylvania. Croats had their own nobility and in Slovakia the nobility was mostly of Slovak origin with German, Magyar, Czech, even Polish in-mixture.

    Finally we agree on something. Croatia was a more or less a different country, though its aristocracy heavily intermingled with the Hungarian aristocracy. To the extent that Zrínyi Miklós gróf (count Nicholas Zrínyi, the Croatian name would be Zrinski) was one of the earliest great Hungarian poets in the 17th century. His brother, Péter, was one of the earliest great Croatian poets. But other than the aristocracy, and the common diets which made laws for both Hungary and Croatia, Croatia was something of a different country. When I stated that Hungary was only 50% Hungarian in 1910 (this included Hungarian speaking Jews and similar), I meant without Croatia. Croatia was closer to Hungary than Hungary to Austria, but its legal separateness was nevertheless a thing.

    Regarding the Slovaks, there have been a number of articles recently about the Slovak nationalist uncle of Kossuth, so people are aware of it. But obviously many in the Slovak nobility also joined the Hungarians, I just checked the Jeszenszky families’ (there were two) Wikipedia page, and there seems to be more Hungarian than Slovak (or, apparently, Czech) members of it. I also checked the Slovak page, while they know of more Slovaks, that’s only because they know of less members of the family in general.

    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeszenszky_csal%C3%A1d?wprov=sfti1

    You left out that some of the nobility were of Serb origin, like Sztójay (Sztojakovics) Döme, the puppet prime minister installed by the Germans in March 1944. But they very often assimilated, even converted to Catholicism, like Sztójay’s ancestors.

    So we have a country where maybe 80% or more of the nobility and well over 90% of the aristocracy were Hungarian, by self-identification, primary language, political affiliation, whatever. We even had a Hungarian nationalist Habsburg branch, descendants of the Palatine of Hungary, Archduke Joseph. This country was then legally the same as its predecessor state, inherited the same laws and even legal responsibility for the war waged by its predecessor, was ruled by the same elites (prime ministers Bethlen and Teleki were members of the Transylvanian aristocracy, so many just fled to Hungary, even though it usually meant they lost their property), speaking the same language, and yet you call it a different country. Mkay.

    so do Czechs, Croats and Poles – was a multi-national country

    The Polish Wikipedia calls the Kingdom of Hungary “Królestwo Węgier,” while Hungary is called “Węgry,” so apparently no. The Croatian Wikipedia says Hungarians are sometimes called Ugors in Croatian, they also discuss the Magyar kings at great lengths, so it’s not really a case of calling it two different things, but maybe our resident Serbo-Croatian speaker, Epigon could weigh in.

    Magyars have a blind spot and refuse to acknowledge that Habsburg Empire and its eastern half – Hungary or what we call ‘Uhorsko’, and so do Czechs, Croats and Poles – was a multi-national country

    Well, we’re certainly aware of the multinational nature of the Habsburg Empire. We’re also aware of the multinational nature of the post-Ottoman Kingdom of Hungary. Although its elites mostly still spoke Hungarian and were attached to the idea of Hungary, which, I assert, is the same thing as present-day rump Hungary.

    Don’t misunderstand me, almost all Hungarians are perfectly aware that we won’t get back those lands. The irredentist idea would in any event be that we would re-unify the lands of the Holy Crown, so the present inhabitants, be they Slovaks or Romanians, would keep it in the sense being part of the political nation holding those areas. Very few people were fully irredentist even in the 1920s. The nationalist idea would be just to push those borders out roughly 50 kilometers, which before WW2 would have resulted in receiving lands 70-90% ethnically Hungarian. After several decades of settlement and assimilation, and several waves of refugees and deportations etc. even that has become utterly impossible, even setting aside political and military reality.

    Back to the point: Hungary was way less multinational before the Ottoman conquest. It wasn’t fully homogeneous, but most historians think it was ethnically something like 65-80% Hungarian, with even higher percentage among the elite. Even those who were descendants of other ethnic groups aspired to be Hungarians.

    It’s pretty much celebrated how the majority of the executed heroes of Arad weren’t even Hungarians by birth. At school they teach us and celebrate how Karl August Graf zu Leiningen-Westerburg, a German aristocrat born in Hessen, was a hero of the Hungarian revolution (though could hardly speak Hungarian, having moved to Hungary a few years before to the estate of his Hungarian aristocrat wife). Or János Damjanich was a Serb, but felt that Hungarian subjects should be loyal to Hungary. I’m not big on civic nationalism, but he was more of a man than I could ever aspire to be, and he fought for my country, so who am I to criticize him.

    It’s also celebrated when some Hungarian hero had non-Hungarian roots. The poet Petőfi had Slovak ancestors. (It was mistakenly taught for some time that his father was a Serb, which was also celebrated, but now it’s proven that both his parents were of Slovak heritage.) Kossuth’s Slovak heritage was not widely known, but recently it’s been discussed in the press how he imprisoned his own uncle (for being a Slovak nationalist). I think he was also fluent in Slovak. (It’s all the more astonishing and foolish that he didn’t consider Slovaks a proper nation. He should have known better, though perhaps his own assimilation blinded him.)

    Of course, only those are celebrated who are considered to have been loyal.

    So I don’t think you appreciate how even present day rump Hungary still has this multinational ideology. See, we are truly the heirs of the old Kingdom.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Beckow
  244. melanf says:
    @AP

    give a quote from a modern scientific article/monograph (not Wikipedia or Reddit!) which States that the native language of the Volodymyr – old Norse that he identified himself as a Scandinavian, etc., etc. I gave you quotes from scientific works of Western historians where it is clearly stated that to the time of Vladimir, the Rurik family “slavicised”.

    Multiple sources confirm that he, son of a Norseman blah blah blah

    That is, you can not give the required quote (from any scientific work), but only 101 times repeat to us your fantasies. Well, imaginary worlds is a good thing. But you could make your stories more entertaining. Something like:

    • Replies: @Adam
    , @AP
  245. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    See, we are truly the heirs of the old Kingdom.

    Exactly, that’s the main point and difference.

  246. @Mr. Hack

    Ukrainian/Hungarian relations were not always marred by distrust and bickering

    Perhaps it’s significant that Rusyns were the only National Council in 1918 who at least responded to the Hungarian government’s request to work with them, so they seemed open to an autonomy within Hungary. Though it quickly became clear that they and their leaders also quickly drifted to separatism. Also in 1939 Hungary granted some autonomy to the Rusyns.

    Interestingly, Hungary was among the very first countries to recognize Ukrainian independence in 1991. This treaty was concluded on December 6, 1991:

    http://www.regione.taa.it/biblioteca/normativa/bilaterali/ungheria%20ucraina2.pdf

    It refers to an earlier treaty, which still has the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic concluding it:

    http://www.regione.taa.it/(S(j2ditw55xce20dq3nfxobpna))/biblioteca/normativa/bilaterali/Ungheria%20Ucraina1.pdf

    These treaties, of course, didn’t prevent Ukraine from restricting the Hungarian minority’s education. Well…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  247. These treaties, of course, didn’t prevent Ukraine from restricting the Hungarian minority’s education. Well…

    No good deed ever goes unpunished.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  248. Adam says:
    @melanf

    You seem to like fantasy, do you have any suggestions for fantasy books in Russian for a learner?

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @melanf
  249. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Please don’t ban him on my account. As you can see, I’m quite capable of taking care of myself. BTW, I thought that I recently read here from Dmitry that Gerard2 was actually some sort of college prof? Was I just having a strange dream or is there any truth to the matter? I’m not trying to ‘dox’ the guy, but I just find it hard to believe that anybody so crude and juvenile, all of the time, could aspire to such a high education? 🙂

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AquariusAnon
  250. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    As far as I know, the Hungarians still have plenty of language rights in their schools up through high school. The inclusion of Ukrainian will only make them more well rounded and able to fit more into the larger Ukrainian community, if they hang around long enough. The Hungarian language rights seem to be quite on par with similar relationships in other parts of Europe. Ukrainians are understandably concerned that no other new boundaries are drawn up to their own detriment. If it were up to me, I would slice off the small border area containing the few towns that are majority Hungarian and get on with it – but it’s not my call and I can see that it would set a bad precedent.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  251. Epigon says:

    Ugarska = Lands of Crown of St. Stephen = Kingdom of Hungary, from archaic term for Magyars/Hungarians – Ugri

    Madjarska = Magyarska = post-Trianon Hungary

    • Replies: @Beckow
  252. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The key tenet of German Nazism is that Germans are superior to others, the key tenet of Jewish Nazism is that Jews are superior to others, the key tenet of Ukrainian Nazism is that Ukrainians are superior to others, and so on.

    LOL, so ancient Isrealites were Nazis in your world, good to know.

    Written in 1841

    Are you telling me that Nazism appeared out of nowhere in the twentieth century?

    Humans also did not appear out of nowhere. But we do not refer to the first fish who crawled on land as humans.

  253. AP says:
    @melanf

    That is, you can not give the required quote (from any scientific work), but only 101 times repeat to us your fantasies.

    It is not fantasy that Vladimir was at least half-Scandinavian (sources differ on whether his mother was a Slavic servant or a Scandinavian) went to Scandinavia and formed an army there which which he seized power. None of these facts are fantasies either:

    “Law in Medieval Russia” Ferdinand Joseph Maria Feldbrugge, section “Germanic Contacts”, pp. 321-322

    10th century treaties with Byzantium all participating warriors and merchants had Scandinavian names and “forces commanding by the princes of Kiev consisted apparently almost completely of Varangians.”

    “General picture” was that the Vikings took over Russia (sic) and that a particular Viking clan, the Rurikids, took monarchial power. They maintained a lively relationship with Scandinavia until the first decades of the 11th century through dynastic marriages and calling upon military aid from their former homeland, after which there was no longer significant Varangian influence.

    ::::::::

    Nor is it a fantasy that Vladimir’s son and successor Yaroslav through Vladimir’s Scandinavian wife Ragnhild (born in Polotsk to a Scandinavian settler Ragnvald) appears prominently in the Norse Sagas, relied on Scandinavian troops, and married a Swedish princess.

    So 2+2 = 4 and these guys were not Slavicized, they had at least dual identities, despite your svidomist fantasies.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @melanf
  254. Beckow says:
    @Epigon

    …Ugarska = Lands of Crown of St. Stephen = from archaic term for Magyars – Ugri

    It is the same word as ‘Uhorsko‘ and Uhri that has been used among Czechs and Slovaks since time immemorial. But it is not an archaic term for Magyars – we have always called them Magyars (ethnic name).

    The word Uhorsko is a Slavic term ‘U hory‘ = “next to the mountains“. It describes the Carpathian basin. It is hard to know how old the term Uhri is, but already in 12.-13. century a number of localities had the modifier ‘Uhorsky’. The details are buried in ancient history, but the term only makes sense as a name based on the word ‘hora’ or ‘gora’ that means a mountain in almost all Slavic languages.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @utu
  255. Epigon says:
    @Beckow

    What about Ugrians?
    Or Ungarn? Franks called them Ungri. In oldest Serb writings – Ugri

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @reiner Tor
  256. Epigon says:
    @AP

    I doubt someone named VladiMIR, SvyatoSLAV, YaroPOLK was not slavicized and instead a Norse Odin worshipper but – who cares.

    Our dauntless and stoic Russian cousins are the most successful Slavic people, intrepid explorers, masters of Eurasia, destroyers of Khazars, bastion of Orthodoxy, bulwark against hordes and Turks, crushers of JudeoJesuit multiculti evil that PLC was, stoppers of Drang nach Osten, best tank designers and most importantly – dashcam video providers.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @AnonFromTN
  257. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    I appreciate your perspective on this topic, we are not that far apart.

    Hungary was way less multinational before the Ottoman conquest. It wasn’t fully homogeneous, but most historians think it was ethnically something like 65-80% Hungarian, with even higher percentage among the elite.

    There is no way to know. I am not familiar with Transylvania and it may very well be that it was more Magyar before the Ottomans and that many Romanians migrated there afterwards.

    I know about Slovakia; we have plenty of records from 11. to 16. century: lists of personal and place names, church documents, etc… huge majority of names are of clear Slav origin and the correspondence that has been found was in Latin, German, or starting in 15th century in a Slovak dialect of Czech. The city records talk about German merchants and Slovak peasants. Only after the Ottoman invasion when a large number of Magyar nobility escaped up north for safety, there is a more frequent mention of the Magyar nation. There are no Magyar place names, or names for rivers, mountains. If medieval Hungary was 65-80% ethnically Magyar, wouldn’t you expect to see some? Students from the region (e.g. Charles University in Prague) listed as their nationality ‘Sclavus’, ‘Wend’ or sometimes ‘Uhor’.

    Jesensky is a huge family in Slovakia (around 200k people can claim some relation to them) clearly originally a Slovak family. You are right that a significant number in the 19th century switched to Magyar nationality, it was the thing to do.

    …we are truly the heirs of the old Kingdom

    You are, and we are not. We take the Habsburg era as something that at the end didn’t work for us, Czechs and Slovaks. The statues were torn down, squares renamed, history updated. It is a fundamental and unchangeable reality based on our self-interest. When outsiders come and try to tell us that we should embrace the common Habsburg past, it only stirs up resentment. This is the Achilles heel of European nationalism – we dig through history and don’t see it the same way. But what is the alternative? We cannot accept something that was fundamentally aimed against our culture, language, and national existence. There is also the reality that at the end we won. This is a hornets nest maybe better left alone.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  258. Beckow says:
    @Epigon

    …What about Ugrians?

    What about them? When was that term first time documented? Isn’t it just a linguistic term?

  259. utu says:
    @Beckow

    ‘U hory‘ – folk etymology. Uhri is older and has nothing to do with mountains. It is from Onogur or Ongur as Hun tribes living between Ural and Caucasus were called and later also applied to Khazars and Magyars. On+ogur is form bulgar-turkic and means ten+tribes – og(ъ)r

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Beckow
  260. AP says:

    Anatoly,

    OT for elections but you had mentioned writing an article about the sniper masacre in Kiev, presumably based on Katchanovsky’s work. Here is a critique of that work you might want to look at before writing your article:

    https://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/the-snipers-massacre-in-kyiv/

    The author, David Marples, has been involved with exposing Banderist crimes in Ukraine (he is linked to Himka) so he is not some sort of apologist for the Ukrainian far-right.

    This article is by a more biased author:

    https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2014/12/01/taras-kuzio-study-ukrainian-nationalism-university-ottawa/?fbclid=IwAR1u0bRBMav9QCVOELanjliIwjc6LRAWgDWQJamtmnSV1D_wPBzFDnfEqSI

    But Katchanovski is himself not quite neutral. You may be aware, but right after Maidan some corrupt post-Maidanists took property from Katchanovski and his family in Ukraine, which may explain his bitterness. Ironically a local bigshot from Katchanovski’s region may have a position in Zelensky’s government.

  261. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Sure I like Gerard, but I didn’t say I thought he is a university professor. If you write to him about non-Ukraine things though, you can see he is an expert connoisseur about topics like football and jazz music’s history.

    • Agree: Beckow
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @reiner Tor
  262. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    Well, if he likes Charlie Parker, Miles Davis and Chick Corea, the guy can’t be all bad. I say, bring the poor SOB back! 🙂

    • Replies: @AP
  263. @Mr. Hack

    I think you have mixed him up with AnonFromTN, who is a Dixiephobic Sovok professor but somehow lives in Nashville. We need to keep him on the blog, but please ban him from Tennessee. He spent enough time dissing Middle Tennessee natives and false statements about their IQs, and not even East Nashville hipsters *despise* country music.

    Sometimes I wonder what triggers him more: Southerners or Ukrainians.

    We need to send him to join the rest of the Sovoks in Brighton Beach or London or something.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  264. Seraphim says:
    @Epigon

    Nobody seems to ask what language were the ‘Rurikids’ speaking when Vladimir got baptized and torn down, cut to pieces and burnt all idols of the ‘Varangians’.
    Do we have any liturgical texts in ‘Old Norse’? Or legal ones? Is there any ‘Norse Saga’ extant in Russia?
    The Varangians/Rus did not ‘take over Russia’, but have been invited by a confederation of Slavs (Slovenes) and Finns (Chudi, Vesii).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @AP
  265. Beckow says:
    @utu

    The etymology of ‘Uhri’ could be complex. Why do you claim that Uhri is ‘older’, what are you basing it on?

    The derive ‘Uhri’ from ‘Onogur’ is linguistically very unnatural. How would it happen? How would you drop the ‘ono‘ and flip the vowel order? It is possible, but why the complicated way, if the simple and intuitive – and historically asserted since 18th century – derivation from ‘U hory’ – next to mountains is available?

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @utu
  266. Beckow says:
    @Seraphim

    They were basically foreign mercenaries, and sometimes raiders. The Viking worshippers are enamored with their myths and base their ‘history‘ on silly Hollywood-like recreation. The few Varangians in the east barely made a mark, the geography there is too vast. This is about their mental pecking order, and that is a condition no amount of rational argument can fix. They will dream on.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  267. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Nobody seems to ask what language were the ‘Rurikids’ speaking when Vladimir got baptized and torn down, cut to pieces and burnt all idols of the ‘Varangians’.

    He was cutting down Slavic idols mostly.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  268. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Because the jazz comments make the constant flood of useless vulgar abuse worth it.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  269. melanf says:
    @Adam

    Mitleser answered for me. I will add that when you learn a foreign language, the main thing is not willpower, as many think. The main thing is to make the study INTERESTING. This is a long process and if you are not interested, then sooner or later the very mention of the language will cause you negative emotions and you will abandon the study. Therefore, focus on what you are interested in during self-study – try to read entertaining articles, watch interesting videos or programs (even if you do not understand anything at the beginning). For this reason, the best (from the point of view of the aboriginal) books may not be perfect, as written in a rather complex language.

    For a person who starts studying almost ideal comics, but only if they are interesting to the reader. Unfortunately I don’t know good Russian comics that would have enough volume (so that comic was enough for a noticeable improvement of the language, for example here https://acomics.ru/~humdrum-life/1 well drawn and funny, but only 53 pages).

    Because of this, I would suggest any Japanese/American graphic novel in the Russian language. For example, here is a brilliant, though dark graphic novel http://desu.me/manga/shingeki_no_kyojin/vol1/ch1/rus#page=1

    To the list of fantasy books I would add “Pharaoh” Boleslav Prus https://e-libra.ru/read/315952-faraon.html . It is a Polish book (written in the early 20th century), but this book is translated into Russian and not translated into English.

    • Agree: Adam
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  270. melanf says:
    @AP

    It is not fantasy that Vladimir was at least half-Scandinavian….

    Vladimir was partialy-Scandinavian by origin, but Slav on language and culture.

    Prince Igor (Scandinavian name) son of Rurik had a son Svyatoslav (Slavic name)

    Prince Svyatoslav’s sons:
    Yaropolk (Slavic name);
    Oleg (Scandinavian name);
    Vladimir (a Slavic name)

    The throne was inherited by Vladimir, who gave his daughters and sons the following names:

    Vycheslav,
    Svyatopolk,
    Izyaslav,
    Mstislav,
    Jaroslav
    Vsevolod,
    Predslava,
    Premyslova,
    Mstislav,
    Stanislav,
    Sudislav,
    Svyatoslav,
    Boris,
    Gleb,
    Pozvizd,
    Dobronega

    The only Scandinavian name (among daughters and sons of Vladimir) is Gleb. The other names are Slavonic (the name Boris is Turkish by origin, but are borrowed from the Slavs, the Bulgarians).

    Of the 20 well-known representatives of the Rikid dynasty from Svyatoslav to his grandchildren, 18 have Slavic names and 2 have Scandinavian names. That is, Rurikids are the same Scandinavians as Windsor – Germans
    Of course the Scandinavians sometimes had Slavic names, and the Slavs had sometimes Scandinavian names. But when a whole dynasty of Rurikovich consisting dozens of people had almost exclusively Slavic names – this dynasty is undeniably Slavic.

    • Replies: @AP
  271. @melanf

    For example, here is a brilliant, though dark graphic novel http://desu.me/manga/shingeki_no_kyojin/vol1/ch1/rus#page=1

    SNK is a very interesting work, I would recommend it as well, however I am a bit surprised at how popular it is given the heavy anti-semitic undertones it contains.

    • Replies: @melanf
  272. melanf says:
    @Hyperborean

    I am a bit surprised at how popular it is given the heavy anti-semitic undertones it contains.

    ????

    Where there can be anti-Semitism? The inhabitants of the “Paradise” judging by the names and appearance – a mixture of Germans and Jews, but in this world are not even aware of the existence of such nationalities. Of the four main characters (which readers sympathize), two have a Jewish surname

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  273. Epigon says:
    @Beckow

    It seems you misunderstood me.

    Frankish chronicles call those 9th century raiders – Ungri and Ungari – even before they settled in Pannonia and formed a sedentary society/entity.

    Hence, modern German – Ungarn.

    Serb medieval writings and documents – Ugri.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  274. @melanf

    Where there can be anti-Semitism?

    What chapter are you on? Have you gotten to the parts about the Elodians and Marleyans?

    The inhabitants of the “Paradise” judging by the names and appearance – a mixture of Germans and Jews, but in this world are not even aware of the existence of such nationalities. Of the four main characters (which readers sympathize), two have a Jewish surname

    Nationalities become relevant later. It is elaborated later on but the fact that Levi and Mikasa are non-Ymirians is important.

  275. @Beckow

    There are no Magyar place names, or names for rivers, mountains. If medieval Hungary was 65-80% ethnically Magyar, wouldn’t you expect to see some?

    In Slovak lands? I wouldn’t, if they had never been ethnically Magyar. Remember that other than some areas in Transylvania, the claim is mostly that the non-Hungarian areas had lower population density relative to where they are now.

  276. melanf says:

    What chapter are you on? Have you gotten to the parts about the Elodians and Marleyans?

    Yes (the name “Paradise” appears only in this part). Elodians (if we consider them an allegory of Jews), victims of tragic circumstances, the reader sympathizes with them (I read up to the flight on the airship, will continue to read a year later, when there will be more new chapters.)

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  277. @Mr. Hack

    The issue is the following:

    – it’s better for anyone to learn in their native tongue than in a foreign language
    – it’s not realistic to teach the language to small kids on a sufficient level, without them living in a Ukrainian environment (after age 10 most subjects are taught in Ukrainian only – will they have the necessary language skills? it’s more realistic to expect that they acquire those language skills by age 18)
    – Ukraine never cared about the level of Hungarians’ Ukrainian skills – as evidenced by the fact that Hungarian schools in Hungarian areas kept requesting native language Ukrainian teachers, but didn’t receive them, because no Ukrainian teacher wanted to move to a poor (the Soviets didn’t develop it because it was a border region; Ukraine was in addition very poor after independence) and Hungarian speaking part of the country
    – ethnic Hungarians since 1991 needed the Ukrainian language, so they tended to learn it; the ethnic Hungarians of Ukrainian citizenship I met (three people) could all speak Ukrainian (I don’t know how well) as well as Russian; but they said older people usually could only speak Russian – hard to blame them
    the whole language law was made not because of the insufficient level of Ukrainian knowledge by the Hungarian minority, but to suppress the Russian language among the Russophone population, the majority of whom are ethnically Ukrainian; therefore, any argument which talks about the sufficient or not levels of Ukrainian knowledge among Hungarians is a distraction

    If it were up to me, I would slice off the small border area

    In 1991 the then conservative Hungarian government and National Assembly explicitly renounced any territorial claims against Ukraine, peaceful or otherwise, in exchange for the minority rights provision. The idea was the following:

    – Hungary had no chance of revising any borders, least of all against the USSR or even Ukraine
    – it was better to have a friendly Ukraine than a hostile one
    – it seemed easiest to start friendly relations with traditionally friendlier neighbors like Austria, Croatia (we supported their bid for independence with weapons shipments, which poisoned our relations with Serbia for a long time) with little or no Hungarian minority. Ukraine seemed like a very good next step with a country where there was very little or no historical baggage of ethnic cleansing etc. on either side, yet still there was a sizable (even if smaller than elsewhere) Hungarian ethnic minority – it was obvious that Ukraine wouldn’t care much about its Hungarian minority, and there would be little paranoia over possible separatism (unlike in Romania, Slovakia, or Serbia)
    – the treaties with Ukraine would serve as a template for similar treaties with Slovakia, Serbia and Romania
    – we would with each of them renounce any possible future territorial claims, peaceful or otherwise, in exchange for minority rights provisions

    Now it turns out that ethnic Hungarians receive the worst treatment in Ukraine. You talk about precedents: we also consider it a precedent. (And, indeed, Ukraine proved to be a precedent after 1991 – now, would it happen in reverse?)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  278. Mr. Hack says:
    @AquariusAnon

    I clearly know the difference between Gerard2 and AnonFromTN. I really was responding to a laudatory comment that Dmitry had made about a week ago regarding Gerard2. I find both of their Ukrainaphobic commentary as ridiculous, however, find Gerard’s even more odious because of the crude and often course language that he likes to use. Both, however, in my opinion deserve to be able to express themselves no matter how tasteless or stupid their stuff may sound. Of course, because its Karlin’s blog, he is the master who holds the keys to accessibility here – but he should be complimented for his basic tolerance of free flow of ideas here.

  279. @Epigon

    I think it comes from the term “Onogur,” a name for a people of Turkic nomads. Basically nomads never had stable “peoples” as we understand the term, rather constantly shifting tribal alliances, which spoke different and constantly shifting languages. This must be one reason why nomadic conquerors often lost their languages – their tribes didn’t speak the same language to begin with, so how could they force their language on the more numerous locals? The ancient Magyars somehow retained their language (probably the majority of them were Old Magyar-speaking) and imposed it on the locals. It happened with the Turks, too. Other than these two, there are not many examples, though I think Indo-Europeans as a whole were originally a group of nomads, too. So probably it’s not very unprecedented.

    Most peoples in Europe have a word derived from Onogur, certainly Russian, Polish, German, English, Italian, or French. Probably peoples who lived closer had more chance to learn the name Hungarians used for themselves, so they started to use a variant of “Magyar.”

    It’s interesting that name for Latin speakers came from South Slavic to Hungarian (we still call Italians “olasz,” while Romanians were called “oláh” before), but Romanians are now called román,” so eventually we learned their self-identification and started using it.

  280. utu says:
    @Beckow

    and historically asserted since 18th century – derivation from ‘U hory’ – next to mountains is available?

    18th century? Why so modest? It may go way back to when the Huns and the Magyars were coming the Slovak shepherds were running up the hills to protect their pretty sheep and when their women whom they left behind were asked where are the men that inhabit this land they would answer “u hory” with the sheep and then many things happened between the Huns and the shepherds’ women and the phrase “u hory” got deeply fused. This is the most likely Slovak etymology.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  281. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    I’m sure that the language issue is more nuanced and complex than what a foreigner like myself realizes. If it were me living in the area, I’m pretty sure that I would be fluent in both (my father was fluent in 8 languages).

    BTW, being a foreigner, I have to admit that there’s a lot that I like about the Hungarian culture. The ethnic and classical music based on it is very nice, as is the mildly spicy food and tasty drink. Goulash and paprikash washed down with some ‘blood of the bull’ and tokaj is always a joy. Liszt and Brahms are beyond charming. But I do wonder sometime, after hearing the opinions of some of the older Ukrainian emigrants, about the supposed Hungarian propensity for extreme ruthlessness, especially evidenced during wartime. In the minds of such individuals, the Hungarians are more ruthless than Russian, Polish, German, Romanian or any other Ukrainian adversary. To put it mildly, you guys are some real ‘bad asses’ when it comes to physical annihilation. What gives? (Thank God that the Ukrainian/Hungarian confrontation has been rather limited, historically speaking).

  282. @melanf

    Yes (the name “Paradise” appears only in this part). Elodians (if we consider them an allegory of Jews), victims of tragic circumstances, the reader sympathizes with them (I read up to the flight on the airship, will continue to read a year later, when there will be more new chapters.)

    I think both Marleyans and Elodians appear rather morally dubious, but even if Elodians are interpreted as Jews and not Germans it still seems rather anti-semitic to suggest that the subjects of Ymir obtained their powers as a result of a demonic pact, everyone hates them because they went on a 5000 year genocide (maybe), and are attempting to eradicate them because they fear Ymirians are planning on reconquering the world. And Marley is secretly ruled by a Elodian oligarch family trying to orchestrate the subjugation of their kinsmen.

    • Replies: @melanf
  283. @Mr. Hack

    I’m pretty sure that I would be fluent in both

    Fluency is often lacking, but people in such mixed areas can often speak and understand many languages on a basic level at least.

    supposed Hungarian propensity for extreme ruthlessness, especially evidenced during wartime

    Hungarian troops committed a number of shamefully cruel atrocities in the occupied Eastern territories, most of them in Ukraine. (Another similar atrocity was the mass murder of over 2000 Serbs and over 700 Jews in Újvidék/Novi Sad, with which I’m sure Epigon is familiar with.) Though there were big exceptions: fighting troops (like the Second Army around Voronezh in Russia, or the Rapid Corps in 1941 in Ukraine) seem to have treated the locals well, but even with the Second Army, its own occupation detachments in the rear area were horrible.

    I think it had more to do with the very rapid expansion of the Royal Hungarian Army between 1938 (when it was still more or less in correspondence with the restrictions of the Trianon Peace Treaty, which restricted it to 35,000 men) and 1941. Any talented or capable officer was sent to serve in fighting units, and unfortunately the rear area troops (especially their commanders) were of way lower quality.

    There were probably a number of other factors: Hungarian troops never liked the war in Russia (it would have been way more popular to just have a one on one war against Romania – though the Romanians would’ve thrashed us, they were larger and with better equipment and training until 1941), anti-guerrilla warfare against a population which the soldiers don’t particularly like is always a recipe for atrocities, etc.

    Hungarian troops behaved very well in Poland, even supplying the AK with weapons and ammunition. The Germans wanted to use Hungarian troops to suppress the Warsaw Uprising, but after the Hungarian troops refused to shoot at the Poles, and occasionally even shot at the supposedly allied Germans, they were pulled out and sent to other fronts.

  284. @Dmitry

    It would greatly improve things if he didn’t descend into scatological language all the time he greatly disagrees with someone. I initially assumed him to be very dumb because of it, so I don’t think he helps his cause with it. (AP proposed the interesting theory that he could be a Ukrainian nationalist trying to discredit Russians. Though I don’t think it was proposed in all seriousness.)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  285. @Epigon

    Ugri could easily derive from Ungri, and in some Slavic languages ‘h’ and ‘g’ sometimes shift to each other – at least, Ukrainian uses the same letter for ‘g’ which Russian uses for ‘h’. Also, Russians used to say “Gitler” for Hitler, because they considered the ‘h’ to be very different from their own hard ‘h’ (which is nowhere near as hard as the English transliteration “kh” would suggest). So, Uhri could easily come from Ugri, or Ungri with just one more step.

    Folk etymologies often fail because they are based on finding similarities between two words or expressions, but fail to consider that sounds changed, and so you need to explain the ancient version of one word from the ancient version of another, based on the known rules of vowel and consonant shifts which happened at different times in the language.

  286. @Mr. Hack

    Liszt

    He was ethnically German (Austrian) from present day Burgenland (the border region of Austria next to Hungary, then belonged to Hungary), who couldn’t speak a word in Hungarian until very old age (when he was old, he learned a little Hungarian), who insisted on being a Magyar only because it sounded so Romantic in the age of Romanticism. His music supposedly based on Hungarian folk music (the rhapsodies for example) is basically based on Gypsy music, which was basically the pop music of the age, and is considered to be of lower quality. Bartók in his dissertation asserted that you couldn’t make it higher quality and deeper than how Liszt did, but that it’s still based on pretty shallow music and thus is still relatively shallow for such a great composer as Liszt.

    Brahms

    He was fully German. His Hungarian Dances and a few similar are all based on Hungarian Gypsy music, which in the 19th century (until Bartók’s and Kodály’s ethnomusicological studies) was considered to be Hungarian folk music. Bartók liked folk music (all kinds of folk music, he collected Slovak and Romanian etc. folk music, he even traveled once to Algeria to notate folk music there), but dissed Gypsy music, which he considered to be shallow entertainment, the equivalent of hip-hop or something. (Though later he became a bit less strict about it, and used some Gypsy motives, too.) He noted how Hungarian folk music is often based on the pentatonic scale (don’t ask me what it is, but we learned at school), which is missing from other traditions of neighboring peoples, probably a legacy of the music of the original Magyars. It’s apparently similar to Central Asian musical traditions.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  287. AP says:
    @melanf

    Vladimir was partialy-Scandinavian by origin, but Slav on language and culture.

    Prince Igor (Scandinavian name) son of Rurik had a son Svyatoslav (Slavic name)

    While Svisatoslav’s mother Helga ruled as regent he was raised by a tutor imported from Scandinavia, Asmod. So despite is name he was raised as a Viking.

    So his son Vladimir was at least half Scandinavian. He may have been fully Scandinavian, there is an unresolved debate whether his mother was a Slav or a Scandinavian.

    Vladimir moved to Scandinavia and raised an army there. So he could not have been simply Slavicized.

    That is, Rurikids are the same Scandinavians as Windsor – Germans

    Well, Rurikids moved to Scandinavia , raised armies there, and depended on these Norse warriors to seize the throne. They hosted their relatives in Kiev or Novgorod, and featured in the Norse Sagas. That is much more than what the Windsors did. Your analogy was eventually correct, by the mid to late 11th century, not in Vladimir’s time.

  288. @Good luck wit your parallel reality

    I don’t think there’s a reliable source for Romanians’ presence in Transylvania before the 12th century. (See the link about the immigrationist theory.) But I’m aware Romanians like the Daco-Roman continuity more. Still – even if they had been there all along, how widespread was their presence in Transylvania, where the lowlands were mostly inhabited by Hungarians in the later High Middle Ages? Even if the Romanian presence was continuous, it’s not like it’d immediately make them a majority in, say, 1150. After all, much like how the majority of Slavs in the central plains of the Carpathian Basin were absorbed by Hungarians, the Roman or Romanized populations could have been absorbed, too. If the Romanians had been there in the 10th century, then it certainly happened at least to an extent.

    I think all three parts of the Wikipedia page (I linked them separately, but all three point to different parts of the same page) are worth reading.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#Historiography:_origin_of_the_theories

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#Theory_of_Daco-Roman_continuity

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#Immigrationist_theory

  289. @reiner Tor

    It’s also worth reading other parts of the page, like the linguistic approach (showing a significant Albanian substrate in Romanian – though it may have some other weird origin, it’d certainly seem to support the immigrationist theory), or the Slavic mediation to Romanian of certain place names.

    I don’t really understand why people need crazy origin theories, though I don’t think any neighboring country has as crazy theories as recently (since 1990) gained currency in Hungary, like the Sumerian etc. “theories.” Certainly the Daco-Romanian continuity theory might be true, at least partly, certainly it’s not the case of the Sumerian-Hungarian “theory.” (In all fairness, the latter is only propagated by cranks, never by legitimate historians.)

  290. Seraphim says:
    @Beckow

    The Russian Primary Chronicle stresses repeatedly that the Varangians were only ‘colonists’ in the towns were they settled as princes, but the the first inhabitants were Slověne (Словѣне).

    • Replies: @Beckow
  291. @Mr. Hack

    As explained earlier, Hungarians have this magnetism for people who didn’t meet them in a position of power. It’s Orientalism, but at a smaller scale. It’s the cult of the Noble Savage, who keeps its savage ways even after reaching Europe, and into the 1990s. In fact, all I needed to know about them I learned in 1900, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_clashes_of_T%C3%A2rgu_Mure%C8%99 .

    “On 20 March 1990, Mihăilă Cofariu, a Romanian from Ibănești village was severely beaten even after he fell unconscious. Following that he remained neurologically disabled. The event was presented in international media as a Hungarian being beaten by Romanians.
    The gruesome footage of Mihăilă Cofariu was presented by Western media as a Hungarian being beaten by Romanians, including in the documentary And the walls came tumbling down: Bad Neighbours, directed by Peter Swain and produced by ethnic Hungarian Paul Neuberg. According to its director, the filming crew arrived in Transylvania after the events, and most footage, including that of Mihăilă Cofariu, were provided by the Hungarian producer team, who let them believe that Cofariu was really a Hungarian being beaten by Romanians.”

    In theory, they wanted “Hungarian-language education” in a city where they already had everything from kindergardens to 100%-Hungarian language university programs, up to med school and state-paid theological studies. In reality, they only wanted a war. This is when Romania was hours away from a Kosovo-style disaster. Only the accident that the Hun entity was financially broke at that time kept the peace.

    The default approach from each of their neighbors is lack of trust. After the Greece-Turkey fiasco, Hungary is the second biggest reason for NATO to be a failure. In both cases, USA constrained countries to enter a military alliance with their worst enemy, in effect preventing these countries from acquiring truly useful allies for an actually possible war.

    Thank Lantos (another Stockholm syndrome victim) for getting Hungary in NATO before anyone else, and thus making half of Eastern Europe chose between Russia and the Hun. After all, choice between two evils can’t be that motivating. Much like Greeks and Turks, Romanians and Slovak do understand that NATO would not help them against their worst enemy. And Hungary makes Ukraine and Serbia less interested in peace with NATO and the West.

    But, of course, Hungarian historians would have an explanation for anything, something involving the Middle Ages, and the Austrian Empire, and etymology, and depopulation. Smart-ass savages, reinterpreting even video evidence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mauoz2y_ElQ

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @reiner Tor
  292. @reiner Tor

    Yes, even today there are people living in the border are who go shopping in Hungary. They like to claim merchandise is better on the other side. But, given that the border between the two countries is a non-factor, the two countries being in a de facto customs union for more than a decade, I guess it’s just their imagination.

    These are the children of those who accepted Horthy’s occupation without any complaints. I guess Stockholm syndrome may be inherited.

    You can call them “absorbed” if you want, but I am pretty sure that at the first tightening of the screw, such as demanding them to switch language, and worse, take up Hungarian, they will come out of the “absorption” process. That is what happened in the second millennium, repeatedly. It’s a ear ache, that language.

    Re. Wikipedia as evidence, I just said that Wikipedia is the target of revisionists. You can find on unz.com, many other examples of outright lies supported by their administrators. I would be surprised if, after paying, for a century, hundreds of butthurt “historians”, Hungarians would not “fix” Wikipedia to “show” various “evidence”.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  293. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dacian Julien Soros

    The gruesome footage of Mihăilă Cofariu was presented by Western media as a Hungarian being beaten by Romanians, including in the documentary And the walls came tumbling down:

    My own father recounted to me several times that as a small boy walking home from school, that was taught 100% in Romanian, if he was overheard speaking in Ukrainian to a friend, the older Romanian boys would beat him up. It was of course kid stuff, but it stuck with him the rest of his life. Other than this, he never spoke badly of Romanians, and took pride in his knowledge of Latin and Romanian. He also spoke very fondly of his trips later backpacking into Romania, that he described very positively.

  294. Aedib says:
    @AP

    Because already there were not Germanic idols to down.

  295. @Dacian Julien Soros

    If I understand it correctly, you claim that the Black March was basically the exact opposite of how it’s described everywhere, and that it’s a big worldwide Hungarian conspiracy which makes it look like a Romanian pogrom against Hungarians, and instead it was basically a Hungarian pogrom aimed at starting a separatist war against Romania? (Never mind that Hungary was already less than half the size of Romania, with an even larger difference in the size of the armed forces.)

    I’m not very knowledgeable about those events, but I’d perhaps spend some energy investigating your claims or watching your videos, if only the Hungarian writer András Sütő hadn’t gouged his own eye out to further the Hungarian conspiracy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_clashes_of_T%C3%A2rgu_Mure%C8%99

  296. @Good luck with your parallel reality

    You can call them “absorbed” if you want, but I am pretty sure that at the first tightening of the screw, such as demanding them to switch language, and worse, take up Hungarian, they will come out of the “absorption” process.

    Who is the they? Who demanded anything? What are you talking about?

    Wikipedia as evidence

    Umm… not evidence, just a description of the controversy. It literally doesn’t say what happened, just describes the various points of view.

    • Replies: @Anon
  297. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    It’s been a while, but I have read a few different histories of Hungary. One is struck by the mass of nobility and other classes of people who’ve melded into the ‘Hungarian nation’: Germans, French, Austrians, Italians, Slovaks, Czechs, South Slavs, Ukrainians, Poles, Jews, you name it. As a result, I believe that even the Hungarian language took a long while to fully develop. I remember reading somewhere that the real Hungarian ethnicity that first started the Hungarian project from way out east, today probably only constitutes no more that 10% of the genetic structure.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  298. @Mr. Hack

    I remember reading somewhere that the real Hungarian ethnicity that first started the Hungarian project from way out east, today probably only constitutes no more that 10% of the genetic structure

    It was already very small by the 11th or 12th centuries, at least based on recent (last 1-2 decades) genetic studies of graves.

    Anyway, my point was that with Liszt you already have to stretch the definition, and Brahms was definitely not Hungarian. The only thing “Hungarian” in their music turned out to be Gypsy.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  299. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    Are you trying to distance away the output of these great composers from a Hungarian legacy? Everyone knows that Rimsky-Korsakov was Russian, but his ‘Capprizio Espaniol’ is a divine rendition of Spanish folk songs. The FM classical radio stations in the states often play ‘Hungarian music’ by Liszt and Brahms.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  300. @Mr. Hack

    Well, Liszt was Hungarian based on his passport, even to the point of never having any other passport (he could’ve easily had an Austrian, a German, French, Italian… passport), and he also considered himself Hungarian, at least he declared it several times, over and over again. By descent, he might’ve had some Hungarian and Slavic (perhaps Croat and Slovak) ancestors, but it was mostly Germans. And he couldn’t speak Hungarian. His music is great (especially things like his Années de pèlerinage), regardless of his ethnicity.

    Brahms was a great composer, too, I probably like him even more than Liszt, but he had nothing to do with Hungary. I also like his Hungarian dances, but it’s not based on Hungarian folk music, rather on Hungarian Gypsy music. Nothing wrong with it, just not really Hungarian. It’d be great if he had been Hungarian, but he wasn’t.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  301. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    So, the question begs itself – what in your opinion constitutes really great Hungarian classical music?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  302. Anon[306] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    “They” are people who are assumed to be absorbed in Hungary (such as those living in Oradea, who today may be going to shop in Szeged, and who tolerated Horthy in the forties), but who resent being forced to speak Hungarian. It’s all in the phrase you quote.

    Also, the page you link to explains:
    “At the beginning of March 1990, two episodes involving Romanian statues occurred. Graffiti was found on the statue of the Romanian historical figure Avram Iancu, and a statue of another Romanian personality in a neighboring town was stolen. A Romanian newspaper referred to events of the same kind that took place before the 1940 Romanian-Hungarian conflict.
    During the celebrations of the Hungarian community on the national day of the Hungarians (15th of March), accusations of nationalism and separatism began to be heard from Romanians.
    The next day, groups of heavily-intoxicated Romanians began to attack state-owned stores in which ethnic Hungarians had changed the signage to include Hungarian.”

    Those are the first 4 phrases of the article. Who started what? To me, it seems that the ethnics started pillaging public property, thinking this is going to bring the second coming of Horthy. Of course, etymology, demographics, and a series of Hungarian historians told you the ethnics dindu nuthin. Romanians are some of the most sheeple people on Earth, and the ethnics tried hard to trigger them.

    It’s not a conspiracy. Even now, there is no Romanian-made video on YT with English subs about the March 1990 events. Similarly, there is nothing about the occupation of Transdniester or the loss of Gagauzia. Why broadcast you are a loser, when it’s mostly the guns and the big empires who decide? In contrast, Hungarians have this aptitude for Jew-like whining to the planet. The result of Romanian inactivity and Hungarian hyperactivity is this nonsense about Hungarians being victims in March 1990, which the ethnics passed on to Lantos-like outsiders, and Lantos-likes reinforced in the weak minds of the ethnics.

    Can you explain why did the ethnics replace the signs in the state-owned food stores? Can an employee do that in your country? Why did the ethnics stole a statue? How is that going to work for them? Is that something Hungarians do a lot, or it’s only when they think it’s a good time to start a civil war?

    Even the Ukrainians, who are not sure about their nationhood’s existence, know Hungarians are dangerous.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @reiner Tor
  303. Mr. Hack says:

    Even the Ukrainians, who are not sure about their nationhood’s existence, know Hungarians are dangerous.

    So, what was this all about Duphus? An extended picnic held in Kyiv during the winter months?

    The only one not sure of his facts seems to be you!

    • Replies: @Anon
  304. Beckow says:
    @utu

    A real stretch, the DNA evidence is inconvertible: Slovakia has zero east Asian DNA, and only 1-2% Finn-Uralic. That tells you all you need to know about who did what to whom – no Hunnish survivors. But if you prefer silly myths and fairy tales, go for it.

    Maybe the Huns paired up with the sheep. Who could blame them, our sheep are very pretty, thank you for noticing…next time you Sudeten bastards visit we will let you have one, before we do to you what our ancestors did to you after WWII.

    • Replies: @AP
  305. @Epigon

    Wow! Do you know that by your comment you just stepped on the toes of several Slavic nations suffering from severe inferiority complex because they envy the success of Russians? These sore losers are desperately trying to prove to themselves and others that 2×2 does not equal 4, but equals 25 or even more, thanks to their achievements?

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  306. @Mr. Hack

    Well, after putting the disclaimer (that he was not really Hungarian), I would obviously mention Liszt (we don’t have many good composers like the Czechs anyway), then Bartók. For example his string quartets are great. Or his piano works. The best is the famous Allegro barbaro. His concertos. He’s good in general, though already a bit modern, so might not be your cup of tea. But even if initially you don’t like it, it’s worth a little effort.

    Then Kodály had a few interesting compositions, but he’s already not a “great” one. There’s Erkel, but I haven’t heard most of his operas, his most played opera, Bánk bán, is not very good, at least for my taste. Though maybe I should give it another chance, sometime in the near future. He composed the music of the Hungarian national anthem, which is at least good.

    There are two modern Jewish composers, Ligeti and Kurtág. You can try them, Ligeti’s Lux Aeterna is well known, but in general they’re not my cup of tea, but maybe I’ll give them another chance. Not each of their compositions are inaccessible.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Seraphim
  307. Beckow says:
    @Seraphim

    Primary Chronicle stresses that Varangians were only ‘colonists’ in the towns were they settled as princes, but the first inhabitants were Slověne.

    The way it gets described in the West is with a certain venom, almost maliciousness, the hatred of all things Slovene is sometimes palpable. This is unfortunately true even in high-brow places (like Oxford, Yale…) – the political biases and ethnic emotions dominate. One could do the same thing with any nation and its history – it was always messy and picking a particular set of events, ignoring others, omitting context, is relatively easy. Slovenes are sometimes guilty of mythologising their own history – all nations do that. But we don’t negatively mythologize others, e.g. the West. It is not in our character, we don’t carry deep emotional hatreds to include in everything.

    The very first Slovene words in the letter asking Byzantium for sending Christianity were (year 863): ” My Словѣне prostaia chad…

    Meaning, ‘we Slovenes are simple folk...’ It seems that the self-image as people who are not into meddling with others, not interested in political scheming, was there at the very beginning.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Epigon
  308. AP says:
    @Beckow

    A real stretch, the DNA evidence is inconvertible: Slovakia has zero east Asian DNA, and only 1-2% Finn-Uralic.

    In terms of paternal DNA, Ukrainians are closest to Belarussians, then Slovaks, and finally Russians.

    As for the name, utu is correct:

    The Hungarians’ own ethnonym to denote themselves in the Early Middle Ages is uncertain. The exonym “Hungarian” is thought to be derived from Oghur-Turkic On-Ogur (literally “Ten Arrows” or “Ten Tribes”). Another possible explanation comes from the Old Russian “Yugra” (“Югра”). It may refer to the Hungarians during a time when they dwelt east of the Ural Mountains along the natural borders of Europe and Asia before their conquest of the Carpathian Basin.[24]

    Prior to the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian Basin in 895/6 and while they lived on the steppes of Eastern Europe east of the Carpathian Mountains, written sources called the Magyars “Hungarians”, specifically: “Ungri” by Georgius Monachus in 837, “Ungri” by Annales Bertiniani in 862, and “Ungari” by the Annales ex Annalibus Iuvavensibus in 881. The Magyars/Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance, and it is possible that they became its ethnic majority.[25] In the Early Middle Ages, the Hungarians had many names, including “Węgrzy” (Polish), “Ungherese” (Italian), “Ungar” (German), and “Hungarus”.[26] The “H-” prefix is a later addition of Medieval Latin.

  309. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    And do not forget about some of the most successful rock bands from the Warsaw Pact countries: Omega and Locomotive GT

    I even happened to get drunk on the concert in Siófok on Lake Balaton (rather a very small venue in an outdoor club) to the point that now I do not remember whether it was Omega or Locomotiv. More likely the latter, I think. (1973? 1974? beats me now)

  310. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Zelesnky showed up for the silly drug test in a Mercedes that was previously owned by Kolomoysky.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  311. AP says:

    Interesting character that links Poroshenko and Putin:

    https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/viktor-medvedchuk-comes-back-with-a-vengeance.html

    Guy is the son of an actual Nazi collaborator (helped ship people to slave labor camps).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  312. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    The guy is a supreme douche, however, Putler doesn’t have any problems at all dealing with the son of a ‘Ukrainian Nazi’, as do half of the readers of this blog. 🙂

    I’d like to read the article, however, I don’t want to go through the hassle of signing up and paying $6/month for the privilege?…

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Gerad. 1
  313. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Zelensky was tested in a private clinic, which is owned by his business partner.

    And the bald guy who takes the blood in the drug test of Zelensky, is a star of Ukrainian masterchef and other reality television programs.

    Russian liberals on the internet are mostly passionately supporting Poroshenko to win, but it does not seem like there are many other people online supporting for Poroshenko (I’m surprised he did not even use his oligarch money to hire a bot army for himself).

    • LOL: Aedib
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  314. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t know his nationality, but his views are just normal views.

    From Russian liberal internet sites, there was a term invented a several years ago “vatnik” which refers to a meme which was used by liberals to parody people who were writing like this in Russian forums some years ago.

    Last time we discussed this topic, I copypasted Gerard’s comment into the meme generator to test it, and not a bad match eh?

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-46/#comment-2379209

    And then AP’s reply to lol

    • LOL: Adam, Epigon
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  315. @Dmitry

    Russian liberals are inconsequential, in Russia and elsewhere. What really matters is that the masters (via Volker) expressed their support for Porky. He sure does not need a troll army. All he needs is vote falsifications, so his money are better spent on electoral commissions.
    I’ve seen this comment on one of Russian sites, which expresses the important things about Ukrainian elections pretty well: “I understand why they rejoice that Porky lost. What I don’t understand is why the same people rejoice that Zelensky won”.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  316. Seraphim says:
    @reiner Tor

    Bela Bartok with his “Magyarországi román népi táncok” (Romanian Folk Dances from Hungary)?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  317. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Russian liberals are inconsequential,

    You can read valid points about the election from them.

    For example, commentators saying Zelensky is a weak bitch, because he apologized for joking about Muslims and Kadyrov some years ago, after Kadyrov became angry.

    Well, true – if you apologize for joking about Kadyrov, then it is a sign of a weak bitch, with whatever consequences this will have for a national leader. But maybe being weak won’t be all bad, if it means he avoids any aggressive policies.

    so his money are better spent on electoral commissions.

    If he is really going to vote falsifications, he should have hired a troll army for the internet.

    Everyone who uses the internet will know Poroshenko falsified the vote, as reading in any page of comments it’s now difficult to find anyone (who is not Russian liberal) that supports him.

    Perhaps even the Americans will be embarrassed if Poroshenko somehow, would “miraculously” win now everyone can see how unpopular he is.

    Anyway what do you think about future – itself Ukraine cannot moderate and become a more peaceful relation to neighbours?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  318. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Hmm, it was free when I read it.

    Here is most of it. Worth a read

    [MORE]

    Rise in politics

    Medvedchuk’s rise in the 1990s can be attributed to his good relations with the country’s first president, Leonid Kravchuk, during his term of office from 1991 to 1994. Kravchuk and Medvedchuk also co-founded the United Social Democratic Party of Ukraine.

    “I had very constructive and warm relations with Mevdedchuk,” Kravchuk told the Kyiv Post.

    Medvedchuk backed Kravchuk against Leonid Kuchma in the 1994 presidential election and initially had a conflict with Kuchma when he became president.

    However, later Medvedchuk made a comeback and became one of Kuchma’s main allies and his chief of staff in 2002 to 2005.

    Since the Kuchma period, Mevdedchuk has enjoyed close relations with Putin and Dmitry Medvedev, who was Putin’s chief of staff in 2003 to 2005, has served one term as Russian president and has been Russia’s prime minister since 2012.

    In 2004, Putin and Medvedev’s wife became the godparents of Medvedchuk’s daughter. Putin was filmed dining with Medvedchuk’s family in their residence in Crimea in 2012.

    “Putin sees in Medvedchuk a hypothetical leader of Ukraine,” exiled Russian opposition politician Ilya Ponomaryov told the Kyiv Post. “He’s Putin’s main confidant in Ukraine.”

    But Medvedchuk, as Putin’s main representative in the country, has allegedly come into conflict over Ukrainian policy with Vladislav Surkov, Putin’s aide responsible for Ukraine, Ponomaryov said. Mark Feygin, a high-profile Moscow-based oppositional lawyer, also claimed the two were at odds.

    Orange Revolution

    In 2004, Medvedchuk was accused of masterminding the voting fraud in favor of then Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, which triggered the Orange Revolution, a popular protest that led to a new vote. As a result of it, Medvedchuk’s opponent, pro-Western candidate Yushchenko came to power. He denied the accusations of rigging the original vote.

    After the Orange Revolution, Medvedchuk’s political fortunes plummeted: he left public politics and kept a low profile.

    But in 2007, when Tymoshenko became prime minister for the second time, Medvedchuk made his second comeback and became a member of the High Council of Justice.

    Media reported then that Medvedchuk was advising Tymoshenko. She also said in 2008 that she was ready to shake hands with Medvedchuk if he could organize a natural gas agreement with Russia that was beneficial to Ukraine.

    Meanwhile, Kravchuk said then that the 2007 gas negotiations between Tymoshenko and Gazprom were aided by Medvedchuk.

    Medvedchuk was also allegedly behind negotiations between Tymoshenko and Yanukovych to form a coalition in 2009, political analyst Volodymyr Fesenko told the Kyiv Post. Tymoshenko has denied having any ties to Medvedchuk. Medvedchuk didn’t answer the request to comment about it.

    Yanukovych years

    Medvedchuk also partnered up with Yanukovych, who was president from 2010 to 2014. Both of them favored closer relations with Russia.

    In 2012, Medvedchuk founded the Ukrainian Choice group, which supports transforming Ukraine into a federation, making Russian the second state language, and joining the Russian-led Customs Union.

    Medvedchuk’s idea of “federalization” is seen as beneficial for Russia because Ukraine’s southeastern regions may fall into Russia’s orbit if they are given autonomy or sovereign status.

    In January, Medvedchuk called for giving autonomy to Russian-occupied areas in the Donbas. His critics see it as a way to legitimize the Kremlin’s control over them.

    Third comeback

    During the EuroMaidan Revolution, which ousted Yanukovych in 2014, Medvedchuk held no public office and kept a low profile. However, according to the Kyiv Post’s sources at the Prosecutor General’s Office, during the revolution Medvedchuk and then-President Yanukovych talked on the phone several times, including on Feb. 20, 2014, when dozens of protesters were killed.

    Medvedchuk kept a low profile for a while after the revolution and the beginning of Russia’s war against Ukraine in 2014.

    But since then, Medvedchuk has come back with a vengeance under current President Petro Poroshenko – for the third time.

    “Medvedchuk has excellent relations with Poroshenko,” Fesenko said. “They are using each other. The legalization of Medvedchuk has happened thanks to Poroshenko. It’s beneficial for Medvedchuk. He’s using Medvedchuk to scare everyone with the ‘Russian threat’ and at the same time he’s doing nothing against Medvedchuk.”

    Poroshenko has denied being an ally or business partner of Medvedchuk.

    However, Poroshenko has had ties to Medvedchuk since 1998, when he was a member of Medvedchuk’s Social Democratic Party of Ukraine. Kravchuk, who was also a leader of the party, told the Kyiv Post, however, that Medvedchuk and Poroshenko were not close to each other in the late 1990s.

    As Putin’s right-hand man in Ukraine, Medvedchuk has played a major role in negotiations with Russia.

    In 2014, the Security Service of Ukraine, then headed by Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, delegated Medvedchuk to the trilateral contact group in Minsk to negotiate prisoner exchanges between Russia and Ukraine, where he has stayed until 2018. Nalyvaichenko said that Medvedchuk had been appointed to the group at Poroshenko’s initiative.

    Poroshenko and Medvedchuk met regularly over several months in 2018, according to an investigation by Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty’s Schemes investigative show. The Presidential Administration said Poroshenko and Medvedchuk had discussed only the issue of prisoner exchanges.

    Medvedchuk is also the only person in Ukraine allowed to fly his jet directly from Kyiv to Russia, while all the direct flights are banned.

    Return to politics

    Under Poroshenko, Medvedchuk has also returned to public politics.

    Medvedchuk joined Vadym Rabynovych’s For Life party in July and became the head of its supervisory board in November.

    Also in November, Medvedchuk spearheaded a merger of the For Life party with a splinter group of the Opposition Bloc backed by tycoon Dmytro Firtash. The group includes Yuriy Boyko, who became the united For Life-Opposition Platform’s presidential candidate, and Serhiy Lyovochkin, Yanukovych’s former chief of staff.

    Allies of tycoon Rinat Akhmetov, including Oleksandr Vilkul and Vadym Novynsky, along with Yevhen Murayev have not agreed to merge into this project. They backed Vilkul as a competing pro-Russian candidate.

    A week before the March 31 election, Medvedchuk and Boyko traveled to Moscow for a public meeting with prime minister Dmitry Medvedev. No Ukrainian politician had a public meeting of that level with a Russian counterpart since the start of the war, accept for Poroshenko and several top officials participating in the prisoner exchange and peace negotiations.

    Criminal case

    In February, the Prosecutor General’s Office opened an investigation against Medvedchuk, accusing him of treason and infringing on Ukraine’s territorial integrity by calling for autonomy for the Donbas in January. Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko also said on March 27 that prosecutors would open a case against Medvedchuk for allegedly crossing the border illegally when they traveled to Russia on March 22.

    Medvedchuk has not been officially charged, however.

    Meanwhile, Fesenko and independent lawmaker Sergii Leshchenko believe the treason case is just a publicity stunt that will not lead to anything. It is also seen as an effort by Poroshenko to counteract speculation that he is a close partner of Medvedchuk.

    Moreover, lawyers, including Roman Kuybida and top prosecutor Sergii Gorbatuk, say the legal prospects of the case are dubious, since it will be hard to prove that Medvedchuk’s call for autonomy for the Donbas was a criminal offense.

    Unlike many pro-Russian separatists, Medvedchuk has escaped prosecution despite the fact that the statements of Medvedchuk and his Ukrainian Choice party have often echoed those of pro-Russian separatists.

    Poroshenko’s critics believe that Medvedchuk’s impunity is a result of his cooperation with the president – something that both Medvedchuk and Poroshenko deny.

    “The political rehabilitation of Medvedchuk, the creation of business preferences for him and his takeover of television channels became possible thanks to the protection of the incumbent president and his inner circle,” Leshchenko said on Channel 24 on March 25.

    “And that’s the biggest political crime against Ukraine.”

    MEDVEDCHUK’S BUSINESS EMPIRE
    For a person who formally owns next to nothing, pro-Russian politician Viktor Medvedchuk has amassed incredible wealth.

    His critics say that he has accumulated his fortune thanks to government largesse and friends in high places, including President Petro Poroshenko, who has denied being a partner of Medvedchuk.

    Most of the business empire associated with Medvedchuk is registered to his family members and associates.

    Under President Leonid Kuchma, Wprost, a Polish newspaper, estimated Medvedchuk’s wealth at $800 million. His fortune was also assessed by Ukraine’s Focus magazine at $460 million in 2008 and at $270.5 million in 2013.

    Medvedchuk did not respond to repeated requests for comment or an interview.

    Dynamo

    Part of Medvedchuk’s wealth was amassed due to the takeover of the Dynamo Kyiv football club by Medvedchuk’s former business partners – Ihor and Grigory Surkis – in the early 1990s.

    In the early 2000s, Medvedchuk acquired Dynamo Kyiv’s Pushcha Vodytsa resort near Kyiv.

    Meanwhile, Sport Tour, which belongs to Medvedchuk’s wife Oksana Marchenko, has acquired a lease on the luxurious Bear’s Oak Forest residence near the village of Zhdenievo in Zakarpattia Oblast from Dynamo Kyiv. The residence, which spans 125 hectares of forestland, has been compared to Yanukovych’s Mezhyhyria estate.

    The Bear’s Oak Forest has benefited from state largesse. Government money was used to build a pipeline, railway facilities and roads in the territory under Kuchma, and more forestland was added to it under President Viktor Yanukovych.

    Another property acquired by Marchenko’s Sport Tour from Dynamo is the Simeiz residence on the coast of Russian-occupied Crimea. Here Medvedchuk and Marchenko met with Putin for a dinner in 2012.

    Wild 1990s

    In the 1990s, Medvedchuk became a member of a group of business people often referred to as “Kyiv Seven.” The group included Valentyn Zgursky, the Surkis brothers, Yuriy Karpenko, Bogdan Gubsky and Yuriy Lyakh.

    In the 1990s, Medvedchuk and the Surkis brothers co-founded Ukrainian Credit Bank and the Slavutych group, which imported oil and gas, tobacco and alcohol and exported grain, sugar and metals. In 1994, Kuchma instructed the Cabinet to investigate their business activities, but the checks did not result in anything, and a fire destroyed documents at Medvedchuk’s office.

    In 2004, several lawmakers submitted a draft resolution to create a Verkhovna Rada commission to investigate Medvedchuk’s business activities.

    According to the resolution, in 1995, a Slavutich shareholder meeting authorized Medvedchuk to sign the group’s statute on behalf of Newport Management, a British Virgin Islands offshore firm, the resolution said. According to the draft resolution, in 1995 Medvedchuk received a power of attorney to use all the property of Newport Management.

    Slavutich group was exempted from taxes under the spurious excuse that it was a foreign investor, the resolution said.

    The group controlled 12 percent of Ukraine’s oil product market and received hundreds of millions of dollars and possibly billions of dollars in income, the lawmakers said in the resolution.

    However, the resolution was never adopted by the Rada and was finally removed from the agenda in 2006.

    Another firm, insurance company Ometa XXI Stolittya, was co-founded by several firms co-owned by Medvedchuk, including BIM and Dynamo Atlantic in the 1990s. Ometa was described as a Ponzi scheme that deceived tens of thousands of Ukrainians by offering them very high dividends on its stock and then suspending the payments.

    Family business

    Medvedchuk’s wife Oksana Marchenko owns real estate companies Terra Invest, Ukrkapital and Sport-Tur, oil and gas producer Geofizika 777, as well as agribusiness firms MBK Agrotekhnika, Landras-Agro, Galician Agricultural Company, Kolos, Oskar, Rodnichok, Tamavarowoodexport, Galichina Organic and Galagrobusiness, and television company Omega TV.

    She also owns the Gavrikovskoye oil and gas field in Russia’s Khanty-Mansi Autonomous District.

    “It’s a standard practice for the Kremlin,” exiled Russian opposition lawmaker Ilya Ponomaryov told the Kyiv Post. “Loyalists are given business preferences to avoid financing them from the budget and to guarantee their loyalty.”

    Medvedchuk’s brother Serhiy owns Lviv-based construction companies Betonbud, Kerambud, Enei and Zakhideksperstepsbud, as well as freight shipping company Transmonolitavto, real estate company Capital Plaza and construction company Eksponent.

    Pipeline business

    One of the most valuable businesses allegedly associated with Medvedchuk is Prikarpatzahidtrans, a pipeline transporting oil products from Russia through Western Ukraine to Europe. Medvedchuk has denied ties to the company.

    After the collapse of the Soviet Union the pipeline was acquired by Russia but later a court transferred it to the Ukrainian government.

    However, in 2015 a court in Rivne Oblast gave the pipeline back to Russia’s oil pipeline monopoly Transneft.

    In 2015, Transneft sold Prikarpatzahidtrans to International Trading Partners, which is owned by German citizen Anatoly Shefer. Ukraine’s Anti-Monopoly Committee, which is controlled by Poroshenko allies, authorized the acquisition.

    Shefer, who did not respond to a request for comment, also has had some business connections to Medvedchuk Medvedchuk. In 2013-2014, ITC Industry Trading Company SA, where Shefer is one of the directors, received a Hr 5.7 million prepayment from Ukraine’s Agrotekhnika for grain supplies to Ukraine. Agrotekhnika is co-owned by Medvedchuk’s wife Marchenko and his ally and Opposition Bloc lawmaker Taras Kozak.

    Ukraine’s Anti-Monopoly Committee said on March 19 it had allowed Belarus’ Oil and Bitumen Plant to acquire Prikarpatzahidtrans. The decision was drafted by Andriy Vovk, who had previously worked at Poroshenko’s Ukrprominvest group.

    Independent lawmaker Sergii Leshchenko sees the Belarusian plant as a front for Medvedchuk and believes this is an attempt by Medvedchuk to make sure that his asset is safe even if Poroshenko loses the 2019 presidential election. The Oil and Bitumen Plant will be treated as a bona fide buyer, and the new Ukrainian government may not want to spoil relations with Belarusian authorities, according to Leshchenko.

    He also links the acquisition to Medvedchuk’s recent visit to Belarus and his meeting with its President Alexander Lukashenko in January.

    LPG market

    Another businessman who Ukrainian media have branded an alleged frontman for Medvedchuk’s business empire is Nisan Moiseyev, the owner of oil and gas traders Proton Energy and Glusco.

    Radio Liberty has published video footage of Moiseyev and Medvedchuk getting out of Medvedchuk’s private jet and kissing each other on the cheek in 2016. Moiseyev admitted being acquainted with Medvedchuk but said Medvedchuk did not have anything to do with his business. Medvedchuk also denied having business ties to Moiseyev.

    Leshchenko and other critics believe Moiseyev had elbowed his way into Ukraine’s liquefied petroleum market with the help of Poroshenko, the presidentially controlled Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and the Russian authorities. The Presidential Administration has denied helping Medvedchuk on the LPG market.

    Leshchenko argued that the redistribution of the LPG market started in 2016, when the SBU’s anti-corruption unit blocked imports of LPG by 16 independent traders. The SBU said imports were blocked because it was investigating the companies for alleged tax evasion and financing Kremlin-backed separatists.

    In 2017 Russia’s Federal Service for Technological and Export Control also gave Moiseyev’s Proton Energy a monopoly on Russian LPG supplies to Ukraine.

    Meanwhile, in 2016 Glusco Energy also acquired Rosneft’s TNK gas station network in Ukraine. The Anti-Monopoly Committee authorized the purchase.

    Coal supplies

    Ukrainian media name a businessman Mykyta Poz among the alleged associates of Medvedchuk. Poz was involved in a scheme that passed off coal from Russian-occupied areas in the Donbas as coal from South Africa, according to a 2016 investigation by the Ukrainska Pravda newspaper. Poz represented Arida Global Limited, a company that supplied coal to state-owned power producer Tsentrenergo, Ukrainska Pravda reported.

    Poz, who did not respond to a request for comment, is the CEO of Konsul-Ukraina, a company that leased the land on which one of Medvedchuk’s dachas was built. Medvedchuk’s ally Kozak used to be the CEO of Private Canceler, a firm co-founded by Poz.

    Poroshenko associates have also been accused of being involved in the coal scheme.

    Fugitive lawmaker Oleksandr Onyshchenko, a suspect in an embezzlement case, claimed in 2016 that Poroshenko’s top ally and lawmaker Ihor Kononenko had been getting $20 per ton from coal supplies coming from Russian-occupied Donbas. According to Onyshchenko and the alleged correspondence with Kononenko that he has published, Kononenko influences Tsentrenergo’s management and the company’s suppliers. Poroshenko and Kononenko denied Onyshchenko’s claims.

  319. @Dmitry

    Americans cannot be embarrassed by anything. Remember the tube with laundry detergent that Colin Powell shook at the UN as “proof” of Iraq WMDs? It was proved beyond reasonable doubt that Saddam had no WMDs. Most of the world remembers Powell’s tube. Are Americans embarrassed? No way.

    Remember Guaido personage, with about as much legitimate claim to Venezuelan presidency as I have. The US appointed him, but he failed to seize power. Is the US embarrassed? No way.

    Remember Ukrainian “elections” in 2014 and Porky’s first “win”? Since that time Porky did every stupid thing you can think of, broke every single one of his promises, shamelessly lined his pockets, and even showed up in public drunk and in socks with holes. Are the masters embarrassed? Of course not. So the US won’t be embarrassed when Porky “wins” again.

    As to your last question, Ukraine has zero sovereignty. So, no matter who becomes president, that person cannot decide to be friendly or unfriendly to anyone. Whatever the master says, the servant does. If the servant does not carry out orders of his master, the servant is replaced. It’s easier to replace Porky, as he certainly has already earned at least life in prison, so masters prefer him. As Sherlock used to say, “It’s elementary, my dear Watson!”

    • Replies: @AP
  320. Dmitry says:

    All television in Ukraine is owned by different oligarchs.

    5 Channel – Poroshenko

    TRK Ukraine – Akhmetov

    1+1 – Kolomoisky

    Inter – Tigipko

    But result of being different oligarchs, at least creates some diversity of media.

    Nationalists last year failed protest to try to stop inter channel from victory day broadcast.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  321. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Inter’s Victory Day concert:

  322. Seraphim says:
    @Beckow

    It is a much debated question, whether the mission to the Khazars of Cyril did not touch the Slovens also. The translations of Cyril and Methodius seem to have had a wider scope, initiated by the Patriarch Photios (who baptized the Bulgarians). The Chronicle says clearly that whilst Methodius remained in Moravia, Constantin/Cyril went to Bulgaria ‘to teach the Bulgarian people’.
    863 is the year when the same Patriarch Photios sent a bishop to the newly converted Varangians Askold and Dir after their unsuccessful attack on Constantinople, repelled by the Intercession of the Mother of God. The process was stalled by a ‘pagan’ reaction (Oleg) but certainly not stopped, boosted by the conversion of Olga and perfected by Vladimir. And for certain the preaching was done in the Slav language.

    The Chronicle is more elaborate. It said that Methodius was (in Moravia) the successor of the Apostle Andronicus.
    “Now Andronicus is the apostle of the Slavic race. He traveled among the Moravians, and the Apostle Paul taught there likewise. For in that region is Illyricum, whither Paul first repaired and where the Slavs originally lived. Since Paul is the teacher of the Slavic race, from which we Russians too are sprung, even so the Apostle Paul is the teacher of us Russians, for he preached to the Slavic nation, and appointed Andronicus as Bishop and successor to himself among them. But the Slavs and the Russes are one people, for it is because of
    the Varangians that the latter became known as Rus’, though originally they were Slavs. While some Slavs were termed Polyanians, their speech was still Slavic, for they were known as Polyanians because
    they lived in the fields. But they had the same Slavic language”.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  323. Seraphim says:
    @Anon

    Hungarians have always preferential treatment in the Western media, because Hungary is ‘European’. In the ‘European’ imaginary ‘Europe’, ‘Christianity’, ‘Civilization’ and ‘Whiteness’ end at the dividing line between Catholics/Protestants and Orthodox. Beyond that is the domain of Dracula’s vampires thirsty for the precious ‘white’ blood, Gypsies and… Slavs.

  324. @Seraphim

    That was the original title. It’s not used any more, because he changed the title back then:

    The original name for the piece was titled Romanian Folk Dances from Hungary (Magyarországi román népi táncok) but was later changed by Bartók when Romania occupied and finally annexed Transylvania between 1918–1920.[1]

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  325. Mr. Hack says:

    This article only highlights this oligarch’s mendacious nature and does absolutely nothing to help enhance Poroshenko’s image as a fighter against corruption. Everything about the man reeks of evil. It’s no wonder that he’s Putler’s point man in Ukraine. Putler has a long career of surrounding himself with former KGB thugs. BTW, I was able to finally access this piece at home at the link that you provided. For some reason, at work the blogsite was positioning this piece as a ‘premium piece’. But thanks all the same. Here’s an intereting video clip showing Medvedchuk’s huge palace located within Zakarpattya that was taken over by Right Sector members for a short amount of time. At least 500 people were allowed to take a full tour – a reminder that nobody is totally isolated from the wrath of a downtrodden people, Very reminiscent of Yanukovych’s mansion in Kyiv:

  326. Seraphim says:
    @reiner Tor

    Yes, he called it simply Román népi táncok (Romanian Folk Dances) for obvious reasons.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  327. @Anon

    people who are assumed to be absorbed in Hungary (such as those living in Oradea

    The “absorbed” referred to what happened in the 10th century, not a proposal for the future. Especially since the 10th century assimilation happened without any state coercion, there being no state and all that jazz.

    To me, it seems that the ethnics started pillaging public property, thinking this is going to bring the second coming of Horthy.

    That’s pretty retarded. The city at the time was still slightly (52%) majority Hungarian, and the Hungarian employees put out signs in Hungarian next to the Romanian signs. In your demented mind it’s “vandalism.” It’s also apparently a valid reason to start a pogrom.

    The details are missing from the English Wikipedia. The graffiti on the Avram Iancu statue was supposed to be in Hungarian, and thus the Romanian police immediately knew it was done by Hungarians. Sounds logical, doesn’t it? Except the exact words were “LE VED,” which is so bad I didn’t at first even recognize it was in Hungarian. “Vedd le” (take it down) might be grammatically (and spelling-wise) correct, but I wouldn’t use these words for a statue. Then there was a Hungarian statue of Petőfi vandalized. (Later other Hungarian statues were vandalized.)

    The Romanians killed three Hungarians (one Romanian also died when the truck carrying him drove at high speed into a crowd of Hungarians, killing one and injuring many in the crowd, and then crashed into a building. The truck driver was later acquitted of all charges. (No Romanian was ever sentenced for the events.)

    Then the Hungarians fought back, which included the beating up of Mihai Cofariu. I guess this is what Dacian Soros wrote about. Another Romanian died when Hungarians threw a Molotov cocktail at his car. But remember, by that time three Hungarians had already been killed by the Romanian mob.

    Anyway, only Hungarians and Gypsies were ever sentenced to prison, and the population of the city dropped by 10% over the next decade, with Hungarians moving away as fast as they could. The obvious fact that the whole event wasn’t even spontaneous, but instead organized (probably by previous Securitate personnel), was never investigated.

    Can you explain why did the ethnics replace the signs in the state-owned food stores? Can an employee do that in your country? Why did the ethnics stole a statue? How is that going to work for them? Is that something Hungarians do a lot, or it’s only when they think it’s a good time to start a civil war?

    It was state owned food stores in a country where everything was owned by the government (a.k.a. a communist economy), so are you that retarded? In light of the graffiti, I wouldn’t be sure that anything done by unknown perpetrators was necessarily done by Hungarians. Regarding the civil war. You do realize that many of the atrocities against the Hungarians were done in the presence of soldiers, including the beating up of András Sütő? In a country with 90% Romanians and less than 10% Hungarians, what chances do the Hungarians have, if the military is on the side of the Romanians? (A.k.a. the Romanian military.) With Hungary itself being less than half the size of Romania, its military still smaller, and the greater power backing nonexistent: Germany was still not united, the US President not supporting even Ukrainian independence, and the still existing USSR obviously not interested in the changing of any borders.

    Okay, Hungarians are better than Romanians, but not that much better.

    • Replies: @Anon
  328. @Seraphim

    Until 1918 the area where he collected the folk dance music (on which he based the composition) was part of Hungary, so he called it Romanian Folk Dances from Hungary. Then changed the name to avoid confusion.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  329. Seraphim says:
    @reiner Tor

    That was the obvious reason.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  330. Mr. Hack says:

    Zelensky seems ready to go. His warning to Poroshenko: “You’re not meeting with a marionette of the Kremlin’s Kolomoisky, not with a vatnik, not with a Little Russian, not with bydlo, not with a clown, but with a candidate for the presidency of Ukraine, Volodymir Zelensky’.

    • Replies: @AP
  331. Epigon says:
    @Beckow

    Oxbridge, Harvard, Princeton, Yale courses and professors of Balkan and Russian/“East Slav” studies are a split between tragedy and comedy.

    I have already outlined why is it so – Berlin and London historiography are 19th century imperialism auxiliaries.

  332. @Seraphim

    “…. For in that region is Illyricum, whither Paul first repaired and where the Slavs originally lived. ”

    Hmm, interesting. I hope AP is taking notice.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  333. Epigon says:
    @Simpleguest

    In Dalimil’s Chronicle the narrative is the same – Čech from a Serbian land called Croatia has to flee because he commited a murder.
    In the first chapter, the Chronicle says that Serbs spread up to Romans, and to the sea.

    Wielkopolska Chronicle is similar – Slavs came from Pannonia (original Roman Illyricum was split into Pannonia into Dalmatia) and diverged to west (Czech), north (Poles) and east (Rus).

    Do I consider this as a definite proof? Of course not. However, the “coincidences” begin to pile up once you take up Roman cartographer and geographer mentions of Serbbinum and Serbinos in Pannonia.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @AP
  334. utu says:
    @Epigon

    All those stories which mostly are self aggrandizing confabulation like the Wielkopolska Chronicle overlook more shameful and probably one of the most important process that was going on in parallel to ethnogensis and state formation along with the adoption of Christianity. What I mean is the slave trade and slavery taking place in Europe and lasting the longest in the Slavic lands. Slavic historians do not like to dwell on it for several reasons: (1) The national pride is the main thing. Apparently they haven’t discovered the benefit of the victimhood ticket that being and ex slave could give you that Jews for instance have no shame still cashing for the slavery ticket in Egypt and Babylon that allegedly occurred several thousands years ago. (2) Also because of the magnitude of it was huge and all local warlords were involved and profited from it greatly. No different than the local tribal chiefs in costal Africa after 15 century. They were the true extractive elite that the Polish Perspective guy likes to bring up in some other economic contexts and meanings. (3) And finally and most importantly because the slave trader were mostly Jewish and their network extended from Middle East, North Africa to Ireland through Eastern Europe to China. One may say that the final stop was put to this network when Catherine the Great conquered Crimea for Russia in 18 century. Nobody has clean hands when it come to the slavery along the coast of Black Sea after the 15 century. Everybody not just Jews was involved: Tatars, Turks, Armenians, Greeks, Karaites (non Talmudic Jews)…

    There is one Czech historian (Dušan Třeštik) who does some work on it and tries to figure out exact economic impact and the scale of it. Prague was one of the main slave trade centers and all glorious early real and legendary Bohemian Kings were involved in it even beyond when Christianity was adopted. The same goes for Polish rulers from Piast dynasty and whoever there was before them. Despite of Papacy edicts against slavery it persisted however certainly Christianity eventually put stop to it and had the civilizing effect by forbidding first the enslavement of Christians which impeded the local rulers from raiding each other for the slaves and also promoted the spread of Christianity.

    I think that in this age of victimhood instead of emphasis on the glories and victories and which of the little countries have the baddest sheep guard dog people in Eastern Europe should go with the program and began to emphasize their common.victimhood from the hand of the first globalizers which were Radhanite Jews working for all kids of masters and especially for Muslims. And as far as Blacks our message to them is: we feel for you, Brothers. We were as much slaves as you were and even worse because they did not castrate you and we are recovering form the impact and trauma just like you and will ask just like you for reparations as soon as we figure out whom could we squeeze out. In the meantime you stay in Africa because we are still in the post slavery recovery process and are not ready to accept you. But we will think of you as Brothers in slavery and will be sending you post cards on every MLK day.

    • Replies: @AP
  335. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Note: this is the same “expert” who claims Ukraine has 22 million people and has not built any roads since 1991.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  336. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Genetics tends to disprove these fairytales about the Slavs originating in the Balkans.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Epigon
    , @Dmitry
  337. AP says:
    @utu

    Don’t forget the Varangian role in the Slave trade. Oh – but those guys were ancient “Russians” or “Ukrainians.”

    And as far as Blacks our message to them is: we feel for you, Brothers. We were as much slaves as you were and even worse because they did not castrate you and we are recovering form the impact and trauma just like you and will ask just like you for reparations as soon as we figure out whom could we squeeze out.

    Already starting:

    http://odessareview.com/symbolic-friendship-taras-shevchenko-ira-aldridge-odessa-ukraine/

    The African American actor was beloved in Europe and continued to garner a cult following in the former Soviet Union. The two great artists, who rose up from serfdom and slavery, could not speak to each other directly because of the language barrier, so they had to find a common language in art and song. Their meetings were documented in the memoirs of Count Tolstoy’s 15 year old daughter, Katya (Ekaterina Tolstoy Yunge), who sometimes acted as their translator. In fact the communication between the two was relatively brief – it lasted only two months, and took on very unusual forms. The African American actor did not speak a word of Russian – much less Ukrainian. He could not even pronounce his new friend’s name, instead referring to him as “the artist”. In turn, the Ukrainian poet and artist knew only a handful of English words – but this did not impede them from communicating and even developing a true affection for each other. Utilizing gestures, body language, and at times an interpreter, they succeeded in communicating feelings and thoughts across the language barrier. Within only a few hours, they bonded over their shared artistic nature, love for Shakespeare, and lives that turned out to hold striking parallels. Aldridge was in Europe as a sort of ‘internal’ exile –and Shevchenko had only recently returned from exile. Their art and artistic interests were also similar in many ways. Ira Aldridge gained renown for his tragic roles, while Shevchenko is known mostly for his lyrical tragedies.

    What did the two geniuses talk about? History retains only excerpts of their dialogues recorded by Ekaterina Tolstoy Yunge. Of course, one of the main topics of their discussions was the oppression of Black Americans and its parallels with the treatment of serfs within the Russian Empire. Much has been written about their touchingly close friendship – Aldridge was the descendant of slaves, Shevchenko a former serf. Both men carried a deep understanding of the tragedy of the oppressed individual as well as that of the oppressed nation – and the knowledge of this pain served as a basis for their friendship. Aldridge recounted his childhood experience of covertly sneaking into a theater on the doors of which hung a sign reading “Dogs and negroes forbidden” and his memories of establishing the first Black theater in Baltimore (it would later be destroyed by a racist mob). Shevchenko spoke about his grim childhood, including the degrading experience of buying his own freedom from a landowner. The two artists served as perfect representations of their respective nations’ struggle for freedom. In Shevchenko’s case, his legacy was silenced in the Soviet Union long after his death – when books spoke about him, they mentioned only his disdain for and struggle against Russian feudalism. Only in European literary accounts can Shevchenko’s passionate fight for Ukraine’s freedom and self-determination be found. After 1991, when the Soviet Union fell together with its legacy of censorship, Shevchenko’s life and work gained a new context and readership.

    Ekaterina Tolstoy Yunge’s memoirs contain many other interesting details of their conversations. For example, Aldridge did not approve of Shevchenko’s admiration of George Washington, saying that the president “…did not rise above his time and did not end slavery”. Aldridge himself was fond of the nineteenth century liberals Radischev, Chernyshevsky, Dobrolyubov and especially Herzen (they had met in London). The two often discussed art and creative matters. For example, Shevchenko was not fond of the performance given by a German actress who played the role of Desdemona in a St. Petersburg production of Othello, in which Aldridge also participated. “You should have killed her in the first act already!” – he joked sarcastically.

    ::::::::::::::::::

    Unsaid in the article (but explicit in Shevchenko’s works), is the group some of whose members were involved in both slavery and serfdom.

  338. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “His warning to Poroshenko: “You’re not meeting with a marionette of the Kremlin’s Kolomoisky, not with a vatnik, not with a Little Russian, not with bydlo, not with a clown, but with a candidate for the presidency of Ukraine, Volodymir Zelensky’.”

    Technically correct, because Kolomoysky does not belong to the Kremlin, he is his own man. Whether Zelensky is Kolomoysky’s puppet is not certain. Odds are, he is. Clearly Kolomysky is backing him financially and providing him with protection. But it is possible that he is doing this because he views Zelensky as better for his interests than is Poroshenko and does not actually control Zelensky.

    Ironically, Poroshenko may have more links to the Kremlin than does Zelensky. Though this may not mean much – the post-Soviet elite are interconnected. The cleanest break would have been Hrytsenko/Sadovy but Hrytenko came in 5th.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Mr. Hack
  339. Beckow says:
    @AP

    He said Pannonia – that is not strictly speaking in the Balkans.

    Roman and other ancient chronicles talk about Middle Danube and the Carpathian basin in roughly 1,000 BC to 1,000 AD. Others lived there too, or moved through there (e.g. Germanic tribes, Sarmatians, etc…), but DNA testing supports the Slovenes, (or Slav) origin there. I think Poland and Ukraine were also part of that ehtnogenesis, but the idea that ‘Slavs came out of Pripyat marshes in 5.th century‘ is too stupid on its face to take seriously. I don’t think you believe it, but it is still fairly standard among many in the West, it makes them feel better.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Simpleguest
    , @reiner Tor
  340. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Roman and other ancient chronicles talk about Middle Danube and the Carpathian basin in roughly 1,000 BC to 1,000 AD.

    This region was closer to the Romans.

    I think Poland and Ukraine were also part of that ehtnogenesis, but the idea that ‘Slavs came out of Pripyat marshes in 5.th century‘ is too stupid on its face to take seriously.

    The area was broader than that.

    Rybakov’s territory (the circled region) makes sense:

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Beckow
  341. Epigon says:
    @AP

    Sure.
    Now look at Dinaroid I2 haplogroup distribution.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Rattus Norwegius
  342. Beckow says:
    @AP

    Hrytsenko failure tells us a lot about the future potential for a fully one-sided, monochromic, pro-Western, anti-Russian politics in Ukraine. Even with demographic transition and assimilation it will take 2-3 generations before they become fully dominant, if ever.

    The more pro-Russian candidate won in the 1st round. No matter how you slice it, Zelensky is perceived as more pro-Russian than Poroshenko. In 2014, Poroshenko was more moderate (and hinting at ‘peace’) than Tymoshenko, and he won.

    There is a pattern that whatever the choice, Ukrainians vote for the more moderate, effectively more pro-Russian candidate. This is especially true in the east and south. One of the more devastating results in this election are the single digits that the ruling president, Porky, got in large areas in the east and south, including Odessa, Kharkiv, etc… How do you consolidate a state around a ‘nationalist, pro-NATO’ idea if some of the key regions are so obviously not in favour?

    Timing in life is everything, and Kiev ideologues (and Galicians) are putting the cart ahead of the horse. It is bound to fail.

    • Replies: @AP
  343. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Balkan one most common in Bosnia, Serbia and Romania. So? We know Balkan “Slavs”are Slavic by culture, not by descent.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  344. Epigon says:
    @AP

    Except Roman Pliny the Elder puts Venedi on Drava and Danube in 1st century AD.

    So does Ptolemy Claudius in 2nd century AD.

    Both of them place Serb(b)inum/Serbinos in Pannonia.

    I am interested in your opinion of Veneti/Venedi of Adriatic Coast, that are described much earlier by Polybius as being similar to Celts but speaking a different language.

    I keep telling you – once you discard the nonsense of European culture coming from Middle East and instead adopt Danube and Ukraine area as locations of oldest European higher cultures – things start making sense. Including the Greek successive invasions from the north. It is impossible beyond any doubt that Slavs somehow went from 500 AD irrelevancy to 630 AD Samo’s Slavs thrashing Franks while at the same time Byzantine Empire losing most of Balkans to them.

    • Replies: @AP
  345. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Hrytsenko failure tells us a lot about the future potential for a fully one-sided, monochromic, pro-Western, anti-Russian politics in Ukraine.

    Also, of non-oligarchic politics in Ukraine (the two are related – Galicia is the only region in Ukraine whose politics are not dominated by oligarchs).

    The more pro-Russian candidate won in the 1st round.

    More than Poroshenko. However not pro-Russian. He donated about $1 million to ATO. The only pro-Russian candidates in Ukraine got 11% and 4% of the vote.

    Zelensky was chosen primarily to end corruption, not because he was “pro-Russian.”

    One of the more devastating results in this election are the single digits that the ruling president, Porky, got in large areas in the east and south, including Odessa, Kharkiv, etc

    There was 30+ people running and his national total was 16%.

    How do you consolidate a state around a ‘nationalist, pro-NATO’ idea if some of the key regions are so obviously not in favour?

    These are now peripheral regions, demographic and economic center of gravity shifts away from them.

  346. @Epigon

    “Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the L147.2 branch, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.”

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1b

    • Replies: @Epigon
  347. AP says:
    @Epigon

    once you discard the nonsense of European culture coming from Middle East and instead adopt Danube and Ukraine area as locations of oldest European higher cultures

    LOL, sorry. You are an intelligent and thoughtful poster but this is just silly.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  348. Epigon says:
    @AP

    Why do you act so smug?
    It is obvios you use Google and wikipedia only. What is the oldest metallurgic find in Europe?
    Oldest settlements?
    Oldest script?

  349. Epigon says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Cool story, except I2a is Illyrian and autochtonuous for Dinaroid area, not vice-versa. The area with highest I2a presence has seen Roman conquest and rule, colonisation, Great Migration period plundering and sacking of major Roman urban settlements (Salona), Slavic arrival, Venetian and Ottoman struggle – yet it somehow kept I2a like the pre-Roman Illyrian inhabitants.

  350. @Beckow

    ‘….. the idea Slavs came out of Pripyat marshes in 5.th century‘ is too stupid on its face to take seriously. I don’t think you believe it, but it is still fairly standard among many in the West, it makes them feel better.”

    Agreed.

    Let’s take a “birds eye” at the events leading to introduction and development of Slavic literacy and Church Slavonic:

    1. Western Slavs from Moravia (present day Cszechia and Slovakia) asking Byzantium Empire to provide Slavic alphabet to enable Slavs to read and understand the word of God in their own tongue.

    2. Byzantium obliging by sending two missionaries with ready-made Slavic alphabet (glagolitic alphabet) developed by accommodating the Greek one to the speech of South Slavic tribes living in their immediate vicinity.

    3. Later, slavic literacy and Church Slavonic written language become a decisive tool, at least that how it looks to me, in homogenizing the “meele” of tribes to the East and North East, with Eastern Slavs becoming dominant and assimilating the “motley crew” of various foreign tribes (Chuds, Varangians, Russ, you name it) living with them.

    So, we see events involving Slavs in places separated by vast distances – from Moravia to the West, Salonica to the South, to Novgorod and Crimea to the the North and East.

    Why Slavs? Because no other nation (“race” in the parlance of the time) had presence at all these places at the same time. Quite an accomplishment for humble marsh people.

  351. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …Rybakov’s territory makes sense

    Does it? How do you explain that there is literally no ‘Avar’ DNA in the Carpathian basin? And little Western European DNA, like Celts or Germans. It is mostly I2 (probably deep natives) and R1a1 that is about us pure Balto-Slav as it gets. There is not a single Avar or Hun (or Asian in general) geographic place name. Nobody has ever spotted an actual ‘steppe nomad raider’ there in historical times. If there are no survivors of these supposedly dominant tribes, who killed whom, who controlled whom? The results speak for themselves. The rest is just political myths.

    Lot of ancient chronicles focused on the unusual stuff – a short-term invasion, a new ‘king’, a warrior group (basically a few robbers or mercenaries to be killed at the end with few descendants). Same way as today we cover wars or earthquakes. Most of the time, in most places – even in a middle of a war – nothing happens. People are left alone and live their lives. Chronicles mostly ignore them.

    Carpathian basin was a part (maybe the center) of Slav ethnogenesis, around 3-5,000 years ago. Farming spread from there, not vice versa. It doesn’t fit the politicised Anglo or German ‘history’, so they ignore facts and spin the narrative about some remote marshes in the east.

    • Replies: @AP
  352. @Beckow

    the idea that ‘Slavs came out of Pripyat marshes in 5.th century‘

    If I were a Slav, I’d want it to be true. Being in the Pripyat marshes 1500 years ago, and then quickly conquering and populating first Eastern Central Europe and parts of Eastern Europe, only to later dominate the area between the Oder and the Pacific Ocean, while creating a more or less developed region (more developed than some 70-80% of the planet) with nuclear technology etc. is an impressive feat.

    However, if they had been the most developed culture already dominating Eastern Central and Eastern Europe millennia ago, then those last millennia weren’t very impressive, to say the least.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Beckow
  353. Mr. Hack says:

    I have no strong feelings regarding the Slavic/European origins of Europe, however, am quite interested in this debate between Beckow and AP (and Epigon and Ratus Norwegius too). Beckow raises some good points to support his theory of a ‘closer to home’ origin of this movement. He has brought up some telling quotations from ancient Roman historians to support his views. It’s not clear just what halogrouping Epigon’s map represents? Is it 12a or R1a. I thought that it was the R1a grouping that was the one that indicated the highest concentration of ‘pure Slavic’ genetics? AP’s map is of interest too. In the Ukrainian case, it rightfully shows that approximately half the area that is known today as Ukraine was not Slavic, but ‘Iranian’. By ‘Iranian’ what it really meant is Sarmatian. Research today shows that within the Ukrainian lands there was a large confederation of Slavs (Antae) and Sarmatians. Please continue…….

    • Replies: @Epigon
  354. Epigon says:
    @reiner Tor

    However, if they had been the most developed culture already dominating Eastern Central and Eastern Europe millennia ago, then those last millennia weren’t very impressive, to say the least.

    They weren’t, obviously.
    There was no centralised state, no magnificent architecture, no scientific and cultural output.

    Precisely, the low population density and lack of major urban settlements precludes any possibility of them expanding from Pripyat-Dniester marshes and settling empty lands – there simply wasn’t enough people to do so.

    Tribes, villages, farmers, semi-nomadic shepherds, river tradelines. Vast expanses, low density, “simple” life.

    • Replies: @AP
  355. @AP

    Ukies are so predictable, arguing with them is exceedingly boring. Anyway, now that they are in power in Ukraine, we have experimental evidence and will have more with every passing year. They lead the country straight to a catastrophe, so let the cesspool the country ends up in be the answer. Naturally, Ukies won’t accept any evidence, they will keep blaming someone else, but that’s a job for psychiatrists, not for lay people.

    • Replies: @AP
  356. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I posted a map of I2a – the “non-Slavic” component of South Slavs – Dinaroid haplogroup.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  357. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    …If I were a Slav, I’d want it to be true. Being in the Pripyat marshes 1500 years ago, and then quickly conquering and populating

    Interesting point, but it doesn’t fit our mentality (I am of course, over-simplifying). We have this archaic concept of ‘living in the truth‘ or ‘pravda‘, that originally had a much broader meaning that covered ‘law’, ‘rules’, ‘our community’, ‘unity with divine’.

    Living and knowing the truth as it is, and as it was, is the ultimate value. We mostly have zero interest in using what we know, or what we learn, to advance a particular agenda, to benefit from it. It has some downside, our history is quite checkered, often sad, but it is the default position among most Slavs, the way we are genetically. Not living or knowing the truth diminishes life, it is not something to aspire to. That’s why we find the glib Western and anglo ‘lying for a cause‘ so off-puting. One can lie about a girl or a business, but who lies about life, about deep ideas, about identity?

    if they had been the most developed culture already dominating Eastern Central and Eastern Europe millennia ago

    I never said that they were developed. They were probably just the usual pastoralists, farmers, spread over a large area, not united, lacking literacy, etc… The term ‘dominate’ is also a bit too strong, that has historically not been our ambition. We have learned recently that one has to be a bit more assertive.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Seraphim
  358. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Anyway, now that they are in power in Ukraine, we have experimental evidence and will have more with every passing year.

    Rebuilt army, yearly GDP gains, declining debt, increasing foreign reserves, shift of economy from Sovok areas to Ukrainian ones, closer ties with EU. Corruption still a problem because central Ukrainian oligarchs are as bad as eastern ones/Russian ones.

    Ukies won’t accept any evidence

    Your “evidence” features claims that Ukraine has 22 million people and hasn’t built any roads since 1991.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  359. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Pripyat-Dniester marshes

    Marshes do not extend to Dniester from Pripyat.

  360. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Ironically, Poroshenko may have more links to the Kremlin than does Zelensky. Though this may not mean much

    The article that you recently posted about Medvedchuk certainly bears that out. Zelensky has garnered some criticism about owning some exclusive real estate somewhere, where all of his neighbors are prominent and wealthy Russians. I don’t know what to make of this, and it might just be pro-nationalist Poroshenko grasping at straws? It’s interesting to note that Zelensky is Jewish, and so far this has not been a large issue. Poroshenko has gone to great lengths, even including conversion to Orthodoxy, to help cover his own Jewish roots. I strongly suspect that Poroshenko will call in his card from the new OCU to help him get over the finish line, after all he was largely responsible for this new Church’s arrival.

    • Replies: @AP
  361. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Poroshenko has gone to great lengths, even including conversion to Orthodoxy, to help cover his own Jewish roots

    Poroshenko has no Jewish roots. There was some fake news that his father was a Jew called Waltsman or something, who converted to Orthodoxy, but it isn’t true.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  362. @Epigon

    “I posted a map of I2a – the “non-Slavic” component of South Slavs – Dinaroid haplogroup.”

    Western Ukraine having almost the same % of Balkan one gene as the Balkans? Ouch, that hurts.

    If I were malicious, I would have re-phrased this post:
    “Balkan one most common in Bosnia, Serbia and Romania. So? We know Balkan “Slavs”are Slavic by culture, not by descent.”
    But I am not, so I won’t.

    • Replies: @AP
  363. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Does it? How do you explain that there is literally no ‘Avar’ DNA in the Carpathian basin?

    Avars were just passing through.

    Carpathian basin was a part (maybe the center) of Slav ethnogenesis, around 3-5,000 years ago.

    Doesn’t explain the Baltics peoples who are closely related to the Slavs.

    Genetic evidence points to the homeland being somewhere in Ukraine:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17364156

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  364. @Beckow

    Self-deception is a human universal. To be honest, Slavs have never struck me as particularly exceptional in that regard, not that Hungarians are particularly good at it either.

    Anyway, my point was simply that the Pripyat story is pretty inspirational. The more humble the beginning, the more inspiration one can draw from later history.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  365. AP says:
    @Simpleguest

    Slavs (and their close genetic and linguistic cousins, Balts) are characterized by R1A, not I2A.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  366. @AP

    Avars were just passing through.

    I thought they never left. They just got dissolved among the locals, as their political power collapsed. But they controlled the Carpathian Basin for maybe two centuries. So the lack of any signs of admixture among Slovaks is interesting.

  367. @AP

    You just confirmed what I said: Ukies will remain Ukies, even if you treat them as humans.
    Trade with EU: The EU is Ukraine’s largest trading partner, accounting for more than 40% of its trade in 2016. Ukraine accounts for 0.9% of EU’s total trade (http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/ukraine/).
    This tells us all we need to know.
    The rest of Ukie claims is just as valid. Sweet dreams! The farther away you are from unfortunate Ukraine, the sweeter the dreams.

    • Replies: @AP
  368. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    …Self-deception is a human universal.

    True. And peoples’genetic predispositions have been heavily mixed with the advent of global cultures. I try not to do it, I had grand parents who were still like that, but it might be a losing fight.

    Pripyat story is pretty inspirational

    It could be, but my criteria is how true is it?

  369. Epigon says:
    @AP

    No, I was actually claiming that I2a1 is not from western Ukraine as that eupedia entry claimed, but Balkan Dinaroid autochtonous.

    Sardinia I2a2 and Dinaroid I2a1 have common ancestry, closer than other I2, and even closer than general I.

    I is the paleo-European – R is Indo-European. That is why isolated, remote populations like in Dinaroid areas, Scandinavia, Basque country, Sardinia have preserved it.

    Slavs (and their close genetic and linguistic cousins, Balts) are characterized by R1A, not I2A.

    Precisely. So how did I2a1 spread in that pattern?

  370. @AP

    I just skimmed over http://www.eupedia.com (for the first time ever) and this is what I found about I2:

    “Haplogroup I2 is the most common paternal lineage in former Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria and Sardinia, and a major lineage in most Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed in Bosnia (55%, including 71% in Bosnian Croats), Sardinia (39.5%), Croatia (38%), Serbia (33%), Montenegro (31%), Romania (28%), Moldova (24%), Macedonia (24%), Slovenia (22%), Bulgaria (22%), Belarus (18.5%), Hungary (18%), Slovakia (17.5%), Ukraine (13.5%), and Albania (13.5%). It is found at a frequency of 5 to 10% in Germanic countries.”

    The blue map posted by Epigon is from the same source and it shows distribution of a subset of I2 called I2a1.

    However, the blue in Sardinia is a different branch of I2a1, called I2a1a while the blue in say Bosnia and Ukraine is for the so called Slavic branch, tagged I2a1b.

    It goes on:
    “Haplogroup I2a1b-L621
    This branch is found overwhelmingly in Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed among the Dinaric Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians) as well as in Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, western Ukraine and Belarus. It is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Greece, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and south-western Russia. I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric).”

    Personally I think human genetics is far from mature science and can’t be taken too seriously yet (if ever). Just read this paragraph, also from europedia, about R1a:

    “Romanians have an even greater diversity of R1a clades than Bulgarians, despite not being speakers of a Slavic language. In fact, not all Romanian R1a is of Slavic origin. It includes Germanic clades (L664>S2894>YP285>YP282 and Z283), Iranian ones (Z93) and Jewish ones (CTS6). The Slavic clades represented include L1029 (under M458>CTS11962) and YP951 (under CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>).”

    If you can make sense of this gibberish, good for you.

    • Replies: @AP
  371. Anon[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    You are more stronk than a Jew. It’s the second time when you use the word “pogrom” to describe a rather balanced quarrel between several hundred unarmed men, resulting in precisely zero deaths. Your threshold for victimization is damn low. (Google Ip and Treznea if you want to learn what a pogrom is.)

    The fact that it was a “Communist” state doesn’t somehow override the laws of ownership. Whatever belongs to the state, follows the rules oi the government, save for exceptions like Chechnya or Kosovo.

    And that brings me back to my original point. In March 1990, that Hungarian chimp out was completely useless. But there was a chance of getting what the Kosovars did: some Clinton-like Western mogul, desperate to shift the conversation from Monica’s dress, could have bombed Romania in order to “protect the right to education”. So Hungarians of Targu Mures took that chance, even if that meant destroying their own livelihood. It didn’t work out, but I won’t forget. I am sure many morons in Arad and Oradea have forgotten, but, as of now, there are millions of Romanians (and Slovaks, and Serbs, and Ukrainians) are still sane.

    So whenever Hungarians claim “pogrom” victim status, there are millions who can tell them go fuck themselves.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  372. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Info from 3 years ago. You are making progress, typically you are stuck in etermal 2014-2015.

    Fromthe same webpage, ayear later:

    Total trade between the EU and Ukraine increased by 27.1 % from January to August 2017 vs January to August 2016.

    And then in 2018:

    https://www.kyivpost.com/business/ukraine-ramps-up-trade-with-eu-exports-now-worth-20-billion.html

    Total exports from Ukraine to the EU increased by 15 percent, or by $2.5 billion compared to 2017.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Gerad. 1
  373. AP says:
    @Simpleguest

    It isn’t hard at all to make sense of. Things are only “gibberish” to you because you don’t understand them. I do not understand equations in physics, yet I wouldn’t consider it to be “gibberish.”

    Simply put:

    R1A (there is a specific subset of this) is the original Slavic haplogroup. I2A is an original indigenous European haplogroup – I2a1b-L621 is the specific one found in the Balkans. The one in the Balkans also extends outward into Ukraine, which borders Romania. I2A may reflect the Trypillian culture found in Ukraine and Romania.

    As Slavs migrated south they mixed with carriers of I2a1b-L621. So Ukraine has a lot of both R1A and I2a1b-L621, but still much more R1A. But further south there is much less R1A and much more I2a1b-L621. These Balkan “Slavs” took on the language of the Slavs who settled among them but were not very Slavic by descent – probably around 20%-25%. They are mostly indigenous people, descendents of Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians or whoever lived there before the Slavs arrived. So ironically, Slovenes and northern Croats (and even Hungarians, who do not even speak a Slavic language having absorbed their local Slavs) are much more Slavic by descent than are Slavophile Serbs.

    Greater I2A among Ukrainians (and southern Russians) compared to Russians or Poles may explain why they tend to be darker than Russians and Poles. I hesitate to attribute to genetics intra-European IQ differences but it may explain the modestly lower mean IQs among Ukrainians, compared to Poles and Russians. Simplistically speaking – Ukrainians, Poles and (non-Northern) Russians are more or less equally Slavic and probably the most Slavic peoples of all, but to the Slavic “base” Poles have some German descent, Russians some Finnic contribution, and Ukrainians some Balkan contribution.

  374. Anon[732] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    How does this differ from 100 year earlier, when they ever demanding Soviet rule? It was / is an economy problem, for which they demanded, in both cases, the wrong solution. If the Kievans felt rich, Maidan would have never occurred.

  375. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    From time to time, you run into the thesis that because Ukraine and Ukrainians developed right on the border of ‘Dyke Pole’, they have a sizable contribution of Turkic/Tatar additions to their genetic structure. We know from the historical record that there was certainly a lot of close interaction during the medieval period where the local nomads intermingled to some extent with the local Rus populace. ‘By the 12th century, the ‘Czorni Kobluki’ had settled in encampments in the southern part of the Kyiv territory, and their local royalty mixed quite frequently with the descendants of Riurik in these lands. These original ‘Asians’ were often hired as auxiliary troops by their Kyivan suzerains as a defensive southern flank against other marauding steppe peoples, and they seem to eventually meld right into the local population. What, if anything, does the genetic structure of Ukrainians today tell us about these contacts? From my personal experiences, I know that on several occasions, I’ve run into Ukrainians that look like they very well could be the grandchildren of Batei Khan. Two, in particular. 🙂

    • Replies: @AP
  376. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It was limited to particular regions (IIRC near Kharkiv, another in the Ternopil area) but overall the genetic contribution isn’t much different than that of East Asians on Russians – very slight. But I know what you mean, I have seen some Asian or Turkish-looking Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  377. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Although my mother had snow white skin and beautiful deep sky blue azure eyes, being the offspring of Ukrainian and Polish parents, I inherited the looks (as did my sister) of of my father who was from Bukovina. Slightly dark skin with hazel colored eyes. My sister, although a beauty in her own right (I’ve written about her here before, a successful model in her youth), looked even more different from our mother than I. I’m pretty sure that Tato had some of the Balkan genes in his structure. Additionally, I have a slight (very slight) slant to my eyes, and have always felt that somewhere some Asian nomad had some input. My 87 year old roommate, born in Bila Tserkva also shares these traits, and I often tease him about his ‘slits’. T’his is the first year that he’s not making his annual pilgrimage back home for the summer months. But, I’ve seen more extreme examples of what I’m talking about amongst Ukrainians.

  378. @AP

    Can’t you read? Even assuming that EU trade volume did not increase (which ain’t true), if you increase 0.9% by 27% you get ~1.2% This about reflects the economic importance of Ukraine to the EU. For comparison, Russian trade with the EU was €191 billion in 2016 (http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/russia/). The same year Ukraine trade with the EU was €29.6 bn. So, you can clearly tell who is severely sanctioned and whose side “the whole world” is on. LOL.

    • Replies: @AP
  379. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    So Russia was about 6% of EU’s trade volume, probably mostly just from buying gas. Difference of about 5%, nothing, and without gas even a smaller difference.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  380. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    This Ukrainian girl looks like she has some Asian descent:

    This one less so:

    A Polish one in comparison:

  381. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Russian is a Slavic language, so for convenience, a Slavic population.

    However, today the closest people genetically to Russians, are the Baltic races. And Estonians and less extent, Finns, (all non-Slavic populations) are also strongly related to Russians.

    Russians are also descended partly from various different Finno-Ugric races, and Russians descent includes from the Finnish race, as well as some smaller input from the Swedish race.

    Now what is the relation of all this to political reality? Not very much.

    The only countries today (ignoring Ukraine for the moment, or various exaggerated hysterics about Kazakhstan ), with real, institutional racism against Russians – are Latvia and Estonia.

    So the closest genetically people like Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians, can be the most racist against you – there is very little logic of genetic relations, in political relations.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @melanf
  382. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    As far as his family tree, there are not openly Jewish family names in Poroshenko’s family. He could still be Jewish, but it’s not in their names.

    The idea that his father is called “Valtzman” – and that this is their real, secret family name – was a semi-comic story, invented by a journalist in a report for the First Channel.

    Federal media nowadays, is eccentrically philosemitic, at the same time occasional use of antisemitism injected strategically for its propaganda and entertainment on important topics, such as the secret name of Poroshenko is “Valtzman”. . .

    This is a political game, to say the political opponent is Jewish, sometimes when they are not. For example, Jewess Kristina Potupchik was according to emails, wanting to label political opponents “Jews”, with a negative connotation, while at the same time she writes Jewish nationalist comments in her personal blog.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Gerad. 1
  383. @AP

    I was taught in the elementary school that 6 is five times greater than 1.2. I believe the math is the same even in Banderistan.

    As to raw materials, here is a quote from the source cited above: “The main Ukraine exports are raw materials (iron, steel, mining products, agricultural products)…”.

    As to natural gas, the funniest thing is that Ukraine is trying to push its transit by all means, which brings it $3 billion per year in transit payments (i.e., ~20% of the total value of all its exports to the EU).

    So, however you slice it or dice it, Ukraine is a second-rate country with third-rate economy. Is this where true banderstas are supposed to exclaim “Glory to Ukriane”?

    • Replies: @AP
  384. @Dmitry

    This is usual. Serbs and Croats are the closest relatives, speaking essentially the same language (even though they use different alphabets) with far fewer differences than between Russian and Ukrainian, yet they are the bitterest enemies for many decades. Sicilians speak Italian, but it is very offensive to call a Sicilian Italian. Portuguese are the closest relatives of Spanish, their languages are very similar, but Portuguese hate Spanish and even call their language “Castilian” (to the delight of Catalans). And so on.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  385. @Dmitry

    Well, I had a classmate at the University with the last name Ivanov, who was Russian according to his passport. He was proud to be a purebred Jew. I had another classmate there with blue eyes, who was (according to him) a grandson of the lead Rabbi in Moscow. You don’t need to be a Waltsman to be a Jew.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AP
  386. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    To have darker people seems quite common in West Ukraine, maybe more in some (formerly very multinational) cities like Chernovtsy.

    For example, Youth Church Choir in Chernovtsy.

  387. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I was taught in the elementary school that 6 is five times greater than 1.2. I believe the math is the same even in Banderistan.

    And at low volumes the number is still inconsequential.

    For example risk of cancer from x is .0000001%. But from y it is .000001. Ten times higher! But in reality, almost meaningless difference. But a journalist-demagogue will write “risk is 10x higher” and gullible people will buy x instead and deny themselves y.

    So, however you slice it or dice it, Ukraine is a second-rate country with third-rate economy. Is this where true banderstas are supposed to exclaim “Glory to Ukriane”?

    It is finally improving after the Sovoks from places like Donbas ran it into the ground.

  388. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Yulia Timoshenko is definitely such a Jew.

    For Poroshenko, I didn’t see any evidence so far, he has any Jewish roots.

    Poroshenko’s children are extremely dark people though. His daughters are attractive.

    To my eyes, the whole family look more like Romanians, Moldovans and Greeks – or even Hungarians include such dark looking people.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AnonFromTN
  389. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Except Waltzman was supposedly the “proof” that he was Jewish. This media joke became reality for many Russians. Like the idea that they teach in Ukrainians schools that ancient Ukrainians dug out the Black Sea – a joke on TV that Russians actually believe.

    Let me guess – you think the articles in the Onion are real and send them to people as real news:

    https://entertainment.theonion.com/shocked-our-planet-viewers-watch-as-david-attenboroug-1833847689

    Poroshenko family were listed as Little Russians back in the 1830s. Their ancestral village had no Jews:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D1%84%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%8B

    It was about 48/48 Ukrainians and Russians, with a few Romanians and Bulgarians.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  390. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    The Poroshenko family is from a village in the southernmost corner of Ukraine, on the Romanian border, near the Danube:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D1%84%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%8B

    Romanian census of 1918 indicates it was about half Ukrainian and half Russian, with a few Romanians and Bulgarians. No Jews were living there. In the 1830s, Poroshenkos were listed as Little Russian.

  391. @Dmitry

    I’ve read (cannot vouch for it) that she is half-Jewish and half-Armenian. Her blond hair is certainly out of the bottle, but that proves nothing.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  392. @AP

    However foreign this idea might sound to some commenters here, you don’t need to be Jewish to be scum. Also, you don’t have to be scum being a Jew.

    • Replies: @AP
  393. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Correct. The point is that Poroshenko being a Jew was a hoax, and naturally people like you believe it.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  394. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ru-wiki explains.

    She is 1/8 Jewish – has a Jewish great-grandfather. She is not part Armenian, but part Latvian. Mistake at passport office turned Grigynis into Grygyan. Great-grandfather Grigynis was born in Riga. This was also on her father’s side. Her mother was purely Ukrainian.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE,_%D0%AE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0#%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  395. @AP

    I know that Porky is a scumbag. I don’t care whether he is a Jew. Same with Kolomoisky: to me it’s important that he is scum, whereas him being Jewish is not important.

  396. @AP

    Again, I don’t care what her national origins are. She is a thief first and foremost. As well as a liar and a sleaze-ball. The rest is irrelevant.

  397. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I read she has some Jewish and Armenian roots.

    In 2000, she was quite attractive, with her old hair.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  398. @Dmitry

    I say in cases like hers that she’d be a pretty woman if only it was not written so clearly on her face that she is a bitch.

  399. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    1/8 Jewish. No Armenian roots, the “Armenian” was a Latvian from Riga but some clerk at the passport office in the early 20th century got the last part of the name wrong.

  400. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Russian is a Slavic language, so for convenience, a Slavic population.
    However, today the closest people genetically to Russians, are the Baltic races. And Estonians and less extent, Finns, (all non-Slavic populations) are also strongly related to Russians.
    Russians are also descended partly from various different Finno-Ugric races, and Russians descent includes from the Finnish race, as well as some smaller input from the Swedish race.

    Russians are divided into two sharply different genetic clusters. To the Balts and the Scandinavians are genetically close only Northern Russians (who are genetically very different from any of the Slavic peoples including South Russian). Southern Russians are genetically close to poles and Slovaks.

    Here – Arkhangelsk and Belgorod

    About politics you are absolutely right

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  401. @Anon

    I don’t care for those events. I didn’t even bring them up myself.

    Of course, a few people died, mostly when cars ran them over. The violence was started by the intoxicated Romanians bussed in from elsewhere. Interestingly there was no violence until the Romanian counter-protestors grew in number. Had Hungarians been violent, they could easily have beaten up the Romanians while they were few.

    The vandalism of statues was done by unknown people. The graffiti was done by a non-Hungarian. Even the word was wrong (it implied mildly grabbing a small object and taking it away by hand, not used for toppling statues), and it contained a serious grammatical error as well as a spelling error. So quite possibly the vandalism of the Romanian statues was not done by Hungarians at all.

    You call adding Hungarian signs and peaceful protests “chimping out,” but the hordes of intoxicated people bussed in from elsewhere is I guess a civilized response.

    But there was a chance of getting what the Kosovars did: some Clinton-like Western mogul, desperate to shift the conversation from Monica’s dress, could have bombed Romania in order to “protect the right to education”

    It was in March 1990. Both Romania and Hungary were in the Warsaw Pact. The USSR very much existed still.

    Are you aware that the Hungarian and Romanian militaries have been pretty friendly to each other since at least the 1960s, regardless of political tensions? (The commie leaders didn’t like each other, but it didn’t stop professional soldiers from fraternizing.) Are you aware that Romania is over twice the size of Hungary? That its military is still larger?

    Are you aware that most ethnic Hungarians in Romania live in the middle of a huge sea of Romanians? Therefore, any change of the border (even assuming it was militarily and politically feasible) would include mutual ethnic cleansing, which would result in a permanent loss of Székelyföld?

    Hungarians are pretty aware of these realities.

    • Replies: @Anon
  402. @Dmitry

    a meme which was used by Jews to denigrate the goys

    Fixed it for ya.

    Also, congrats on living up to the worst of the kike stereotypes.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  403. Seraphim says:
    @Beckow

    I always wondered why the firm and consistent traditions that the Slavs spread from the South-West to the North-East was so utterly dismissed by ‘scholars’. Perhaps, the reasoning behind was that the Slavs were not ‘Europeans’.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  404. @AP

    “So ironically, Slovenes and northern Croats (and even Hungarians, who do not even speak a Slavic language having absorbed their local Slavs) are much more Slavic by descent than are Slavophile Serbs.”

    It does not look like that.
    Your logic says that if you have more of I2, you are closer genetically to the indigenious population. So Croats, having more I2 then Serbs, have absorbed more of the indigenious population which makes them more distant to Slavs.

    Speaking the same parlance, Northern Russians are Slavs only by culture and language and not by descent.

    It is obvious that you involve a lot of daily politics in this topic, trying to “discredit” Serbs and Bulgarians as not being true genetic Slavs, due to their staunch popular support of Russians, thinking that someone somewhere would really care about that.

    This is outright silly because to Westerners, especially Germanics, all Slavs were barbarians and lower breed, regardless of the color of their hair.

    • Replies: @AP
  405. “He is not an oligarch like Poroshenko or Tymoshenko (both of whom have also been implicated in corruption schemes over the years). ”

    Great, so Ukrainians get to be ruled by a Jewish non-oligarch surrounded by Jewish oligarchs, instead of directly by Jewish oligarchs. Big difference.

    • Replies: @AP
  406. Dmitry says:
    @anonymous coward

    It’s strange that a American or Canadian (?) guy has such strong views about all these topics.

    Remember a few weeks ago when didn’t know one of the most common insults in Russian, and were telling me “bydlo is a word only Jews use”.
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/fake-gay-countries/#comment-2703708

    a meme which was used by Jews to denigrate the goys

    I didn’t see any sign Anton Chadsky who creates “vatnik” has a relation to the Jews.

    Not talking to “Anonymous Coward”, but it’s funny even such pro-Western liberals exiled in Kiev hate Poroshenko.

    О, коррупционерокомандующий обмозговал хорошенько вызов Зе и, кряхтя, согласился. Хотя вся его команда визжала и…

    Posted by Anton Chadsky on Wednesday, April 3, 2019

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @anonymous coward
  407. AP says:
    @Simpleguest

    “So ironically, Slovenes and northern Croats (and even Hungarians, who do not even speak a Slavic language having absorbed their local Slavs) are much more Slavic by descent than are Slavophile Serbs.”

    It does not look like that.
    Your logic says that if you have more of I2, you are closer genetically to the indigenious population.

    I was simplifying. There is also I1, and E1b1b which are native to Balkans.

    So Croats, having more I2 then Serbs, have absorbed more of the indigenious population which makes them more distant to Slavs.

    Depends on which ones. Bosnian ones do, northern ones do not. Also look at I1 and E1b1b. Serbs have more of these than do Croats (not Bosnain Croats). All together the indigenous % is higher among Serbs. And the Slavic marker, R1A,is lower among Serbs than among Croats (not Bosnian Croats).

    Overall, genetically speaking Bosnian Croats are very different from Croats from Croatia.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

    Speaking the same parlance, Northern Russians are Slavs only by culture and language and not by descent.

    IIRC they are “mestizos” – they have more Slavic descent than do Balkan “Slavs” but unlike southern Russians they are heavily mixed with Finns (though some Russian communities in the North may be as little Slavic as Balkans). Balkans “Slavs” are not Mestizos, in terms of mixture with Slavs they are like African Americans, who are about 20% European.

    trying to “discredit” Serbs and Bulgarians as not being true genetic Slavs,

    Reality is very clear and it is not only my conclusion.

    Y-STR variation among Slavs: evidence for the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper basin

    Journal of Human Genetics

    May 2007, Volume 52, Issue 5, pp 406–414

    Krzysztof Rębała Alexei I. Mikulich Iosif S. Tsybovsky Daniela Siváková Zuzana Džupinková

    Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors, most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[55]

    Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors, this phenomenon is explained by “… contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  408. AP says:
    @jbwilson24

    Poroshenko is not Jewish at all and Tymoshenko is 1/8 Jewish.

  409. AP says:
    @AP

    There is also I1, and E1b1b which are native to Balkans.

    Should have been J2, which is in Greece, Caucuses, Anatolia.

    So in terms of Slavic marker R1A in the Balkans:

    Slovenes: 38%
    Croats: 24%
    Serbs: 18%
    Albanians: 9%

    Balkan markers (I2 + J2 + E1b1b):

    Slovenes: 27.5%
    Croats: 53%
    Serbs: 58%
    Albanians: 59%

    Obviously there are nuances, some R1A comes from non-Slavs, etc.

  410. Anon[260] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    Again, the reason why Hungarians outside Hungary try to create unrest is that the hope that some big guy is going to be involved. Saying that Hungarian army is small or friendly to Romanians doesn’t change it. It’s like saying that Kosovo independence could not have been conceived because the Albanian army was small, or friendly with the Yugoslavs. Of course, the professional soldiers of smaller countries would prefer to sit out such nonsense.

    Similarly, USSR could not control the Armenian-Azeri conflict within their own borders. Also, the idea that USSR somehow loves Romanians is nonsense. The only thing that USSR / Russia does is shifting countries leftwards. Following WW II, Poland lost Lvov and gained Danzig. Romania recovered Satu Mare and lost Chisinau.Czechoslovakia got back Karlovy Vary and lost Zakarpattia. You probably don’t realize that, during interwar, USSR was the most active enemy of Romania, thanks to a common border, while Hungary was protected by the Czechoslovak buffer zone of Zakarpattie. In 1990, Russians would and could not have saved us, as they couldn’t save the Serbs either.

    In related news, Kelemen, the leader of the Hungarian ethnic party holding some 5% of the parliament seats in Romania, attempted to enter Ukraine yesterday. The ethnics or the Northern neighbor had some sort of chimp out planned, using the pretext of “culture”. I guess Orban could not get in. Long story short, our Kelemen has been refused entry, and whined that “you can’t do that to a Romanian citizen”. He also added, “I never used a Hungarian passport”, apparently thinking that could have been the only giveaway.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  411. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    О, коррупционерокомандующий обмозговал хорошенько вызов Зе и, кряхтя, согласился…..Но поняв, что его поимели одутловатый таки решил поломать комедию и согласился.

    • LOL: Dmitry
  412. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Russians they are heavily mixed with Finns

    There are some interesting maps here:
    https://pikabu.ru/story/genofond_narodov_severovostochnoy_evropyi_ot_finnov_do_litovtsev_5301737

    Genetically, closest people for “Northern” Russians (which genetically, goes all the way down to Samara), are Baltic races, including Estonians.

    If you think Poles as “pure slavs” – they are closest to Slovaks and then close to “Southern-Central” Russians, and Western Ukraine.

    In Samara – Russians more related to Estonians/Latvians. But in Saratov, already more related to Poles.

    Romanians are close to Yugoslavians and Eastern Italians . So it is probably true Romanians are descendants of the Ancient Romans.

    • Agree: Beckow
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  413. Beckow says:
    @Seraphim

    …consistent traditions that the Slavs spread from the South-West to the North-East was so utterly dismissed by ‘scholars’. Perhaps, the reasoning behind was that the Slavs were not ‘Europeans’.

    That is some of it, Western Europe has always jealously guarded its ‘ownership‘ of the European idea. With the latest migrant flows, they should focus on closer to home.

    There is also the whole ‘who was here first‘ argument. Germans (and to some extent Magyars) created an elaborate mythical history where all was German in the past, except the remote Pripyat marshes. This for some reason mattered a lot in 19.-20.th century, so they claimed most of eastern Europe, Carpathian basin, even ‘Russia’ (it was the Vikings somehow, not local tribes). When their presence was missing they invented or hugely exaggerated ‘Asiatic nomads’ who they saw (and still do) as superior to Slavs.

    That picture is demographically not possible and today’s DNA evidence is proving that Slavs lived over a much larger region (R1a1…). The Western myths were based on selective historical archives – like, ‘Avar’ raids into Europe are mentioned, well then West invents that Avars must had controlled the whole region for 200 years and ‘Avaria’ state is sneakily put on a ‘historical’ map (in 19th century).

    Most steppe nomads and bandits were very transitory: small armed groups that usually died very quickly, hid in far-away steppes, and if they managed to spawn some offspring with the locals, that offspring was generally not kept. DNA evidence shows it very clearly: you can’t be a dominant invading group if no physical or genetical evidence is left. But quiet groups in history never get their due – it is all about the screamers who dream up conquests and glory. A Hollywood version of life – it has run deep in the West for a very long time. It is about to end, they forget to keep their own doors closed.

    • Replies: @Adam
    , @Seraphim
    , @reiner Tor
  414. Gerad. 1 says:
    @AP

    Lol….in other words….40% down from 2013,
    still utterly lamentable and negligible even if it were to increase by 5 billion,
    kyiv post is as a reliable source as toilet paper,
    27.1% so-called increase is…….Russian gas exports to EU transformed into EU ,marked-up, re-exports of Russian gas to Ukraine….
    Aided by the increase in oil price (to which gas price us linked) going up by about the same (27%) during the year
    Let’s not forget that they probably included exports from Crimea and Donbass as their own!

    So to summarise:

    ” increase ” in trade is due to EU re-exporting Russian gas plus the oil price increase
    2.5 billion is a lie…..and a pitiful lie because exports to EU are WAY down from 2013

    What a desperate situation

  415. Gerad. 1 says:
    @Dmitry

    Link to this supposedly done by a first channel journalist?
    Quite simply he is jewish,
    father a convicted criminal,
    Had big mafia connections in Moldova in the 1990s
    Could have ordered the murder of his brother
    His youngest son speaks Russian as his first language…..well when drunk, which is when people speak at their most natural

  416. @Gerad. 1

    Well, Porky himself switches to Russian in his cups. But the morons see him as a “Ukrainian patriot”. However, he is a wily thief and must be fairly smart: he robs the country blind, and some (almost 16%) still approve of him. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice… Porky is about to fool them twice.

  417. Adam says:
    @Beckow

    It was not all German, but substantial areas of Poland, Ukraine, etc. were inhabited by East Germanic tribes. Some of them survived in the Crimea until the 18th century. They were driven out or assimilated during the Migration Period, after which the Slavs dramatically increased their living area.

    You can’t easily associate genetics with language groups. People change the languages they speak. Who’s to say that East Germanic peoples didn’t have genes that were broadly similar to Slavs, if not nearly identical? It’s certain that East Germans are genetically more ‘Slavic’ than German. Northern Iranians were probably similar to Slavs as well.

    It was absolutely possible in the past for a small military elite to dominate weaker peoples, even if the latter were much more numerous. There are countless examples throughout history. Do you also doubt that a few tens of thousands of British aristocrats, soldiers, and bureaucrats could rule over 300 million Indians?

    It’s true that such situations often don’t leave any genetic legacy, for the reasons that you listed. However, it’s mistaken to think that means the relationship was inherently transient. Taking Russia as an example, the Tatars acted through intermediaries to extract tribute and maintain some degree of control over the politics of the Rus’ principalities for over two centuries. Other than some elite marriages, they did not breed with Russians and their only easily observably legacy is about a hundred loanwords to Russian.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  418. @Gerad. 1

    I don’t understand why people mention the possibility of Porky ordering the murder of his brother as something against Porky. If he ordered that murder, it might well have been one of very few good things he ever did. Just imagine two sleaze-balls like Porky instead of one, and shudder.

  419. Beckow says:
    @Adam

    …You can’t easily associate genetics with language groups.

    I agree, and genetics groups are also older. But the basic split between Eastern Europeans (R1a1) and Western Europeans (R1b) is older then the formation of IE linguistic subgroups, like German and Slav.

    The fact that E Germans are closer genetically to Slavs than to W Europeans would suggest that the original population and language in E Germany were Slavic and were only Germanized later. Exactly what we know from historical records. But the presumed massive presence of Western Germanic people, or even Celts, is not found in DNA in E Europe.

    The examples like British in India are very misleading: completely different dynamic. If there is a claim that Vikings from Scandinavia were ruling in E Europe, or that Huns and Avars controlled the Carpathian basin – you have to find some genetic evidence for their presence. Or explain why they almost completely died off. If there numbers were so small that they barely show in DNA data, maybe they were not that important.

    That’s my point – in cases where a conquering tribe took over, or even just took over the ‘elite‘ (whatever that would be in the early Middle Ages), we see a massive DNA shift, especially on male side. It is true in England with Anglo-Saxons or Vikings there, it is true on the continent with IE invaders. To theorise that maybe the nature of Germanic control in the east was the same as British in India is very ahistorical, tribes at that time worked completely differently.

    It is more likely that the endless historical references to migrating ‘tribes’ were referring mostly to relatively small warrior groups (in effect marauding bandits). Small in number, living of pillage, and usually living short lives with no descendants, they were not any different than 18.th century pirate groups. They were visible, often scary, but in reality insignificant. They also mostly moved through a few well established main roads, along rivers. Most of the farming-pastoralist population was unaffected. In some cases, the truth is in the middle – I think Goths in Crimea were real and survived till 18th century – but it was a small, isolated group. The east is very vast, let’s not focus on the exceptional there.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Adam
  420. Aedib says:
    @AnonFromTN

    In fact, the language widely known as “Spanish” is in reality Castilian. Also in the south of South America (Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay)it is correctly called Castilian. There are four main languages in Spain: Castilian, Catalan, Galician and Basque.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  421. @Aedib

    I don’t know much about Galician, but Catalan is in between Spanish and French, whereas Basque is not even related to Roman languages. I know that Catalans always refer to Spanish as Castilian and get seriously offended when you call them Spaniards or say than Barcelona is in Spain.
    The funniest thing is that what most of the world knows as Crème brûlée is called Crema Catalana in Barcelona and Crema Castilliana in Madrid. French would find that hilarious.

    • Replies: @Adam
    , @Aedib
  422. Adam says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Catalans are the Ukrainians of Iberia and their nationhood ought to be denied at every opportunity.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  423. Aedib says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Catalan is a Romance language by their own with several imported word from French and a few ones from Italian. It is not strongly related to modern French because is more related to the medieval Occitan o lenga d’òc. In this way it is more related to Provencal and Piedmontese regional languages respectively in south France and North West Italy. And yeah, some Catalan nationalists may get offended when you call them Spaniards but they are, in fact,… Spaniards (both in ethnic and nation state meanings). Also ask an Argentine what language he speaks and the answer will be “castellano”.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  424. Aedib says:
    @Adam

    Not really. There are many morons that really want independence from Spain but most people acknowledge that such move will lead to nowhere. Catalans are not as fanatically irrational as Ukrainian nationalists. Catalonia got most of what it wanted (Autonomic rights, official state language for the Catalan) after Franco’s death. Puigdemotnt and clowns like him made a lot of noise but in the end Catalonians doesn’t show self-destructive behaviors observed in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Adam
  425. Adam says:
    @Aedib

    There’s a substantial proportion of Catalans who would rather have a Catalan speaking African as a neighbor than a Castilian. Catalonia has a very good situation in Spain, but half of them want independence because Spain isn’t gay or liberal enough. Ukrainians are poor and didn’t have much to lose, Catalans however are rich and ultimately bent the knee when it became clear that Spain was not going to tolerate their shit.

    • LOL: Aedib
    • Replies: @Aedib
  426. @Aedib

    Thanks for the info! I am not a pro in linguistics, just visited Spain (including Catalonia) once, and talked to a few Catalan collaborators.

  427. @Mr. Hack

    My 87 year old roommate, born in Bila Tserkva also shares these traits, and I often tease him about his ‘slits’

    My grandmother was from Bila Tserkva, she also had slightly slit eyes and I always assumed that there must have been some Asian input somewhere (perhaps Khazarian, as she was Jewish).

  428. Aedib says:
    @Adam

    I mostly agree (specially about the hyper-liberal gay, African and Sudaca friendly Barcelona), but in the end rational thinking prevails. There is nothing to gain by detaching Catalonia from Spain. By the way, if Ukraine is interested in retaining the Donbas, the” Catalonia within Spain” example is a model to copy. I’m not sure current ruling class in interested on Donbas. Or maybe, they are interested in Donbas but without Donbas people.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  429. @Aedib

    You mean, like Poles are interested in Galicia and Volhynia, but without local fauna.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  430. Aedib says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Well, just read @AP words about Donbas people. They are not a good recipe for a stable country.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  431. Dmitry says:
    @Gerad. 1

    Father of Poroshenko was imprisoned in Moldova for stealing (perhaps “apple does not fall far”, etc).

    In court documents of his trial, his family name is “Poroshenko” and nationality is “Ukrainian”.

    Father and son – chubby already looks destined for diabetes.

    ПП: Родина – це споконвічна опора, де кожна людина черпає любов, надію і духовні сили. Дякую своїм батькам, які виховали…

    Posted by Петро Порошенко on Saturday, July 7, 2018

    Today

    Nobody knows how he has all these awards today (bought them in Ebay?)

  432. @Aedib

    That AP personage is a Ukie. Naturally, not living in Ukraine. I remain mildly optimistic that at some point Ukrainians will come to power in Ukraine. Otherwise that unfortunate land will become a huge Somalia on Europe doorstep. While it would serve the EU right, I hope that Ukrainians deserve better.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @DreadIlk
  433. @Dmitry

    Porky bought them for his father. He has so many because there was a volume discount.

    • LOL: Dmitry, Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  434. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The next generation of the family seem more adequate and normal, at least. It was not difficult to found them on Facebook (they use Roshen as part of their username).

    You can see they’ll probably stay in London, because their friends are in London (and that’s probably where the family is putting a lot of their money).

    They were in international school and you can see (like with a lot of children of Kremlin officials) their friends are mostly Chinese and Nigerians.

    • Replies: @Gerad. 1
  435. Seraphim says:
    @Beckow

    You are right to talk about the Westerners guarding jealously the ownership of the ‘European Idea’, because it is their own invention.
    I remind (I addressed already that topic) that the name ‘Europe’ was initially referring to the western shore of the Aegean Sea (and was given by the Phoenicians), then extended to the River Tanais (Don) and Caucasus to the East and to the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar) to the West. In the Late Roman Empire it was the name of a province in the diocese of Thrace (roughly what is today European Turkey) the place where Constantine built the New Rome.
    The term “Europe” was ‘usurped’ by the Carolingians once they usurped the Roman Imperial title with the help of the bishop of the Old Rome. From that time, the term designated the sphere of influence of the Western Church, as opposed to both the Eastern Orthodox Church and to the Islamic world.
    The ‘idea’ was further degraded when it came to designate the anti-Christian ideology of Western ‘Europe’.

  436. Seraphim says:
    @Dmitry

    Romanians are the result of a historical process of mixture of ‘Latins’ and ‘Slavs’ in the Carpatho-Danubian-Pontic wider area, probably even before the Roman conquest.

  437. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    ‘Ukrainians’ like you, Janissary? Don’t make me laugh. The best thing that’s ever happened for Ukraine is the day you left it – good riddance!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  438. @Mr. Hack

    Like I said, Ukies sincerely believe that anyone even remotely normal should not be in Ukraine. They are in for a nasty surprise: the majority of Ukraine population, however gullible and misguided, deep down is normal. Ridiculously low support for mad Ukie policies, despite five years of propaganda Dr. Goebbels would approve of, shows that normalcy is beginning to come out. A few more years of current madhouse and those Ukies who do not run away in time will hang.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  439. @Anon

    Hungarians outside Hungary try to create unrest

    When did they do that? Even if we accept that putting up Hungarian language signs next to the Romanian language signs was some kind of “chimping out” and the arrival of bused in intoxicated Romanians (obviously organized by Romanian former communists) and their siege of the office of the Hungarian party was some kind of normal, civilized response, it only happened in March 1990 in Romania. Similar large-scale events didn’t happen before or after in Romania, nor anywhere else. This event is not very representative of Hungarian behavior, even Romanian peasants and miners only behaved so when organized by former commie security organs (besides the events discussed here, see also the so called Mineriads).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineriad

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_1990_Mineriad

    Albanian army was small, or friendly with the Yugoslavs

    The Albanian army wasn’t friendly with the Yugoslavs. But there was a chance of American intervention. This is what was missing in 1990 in Romania.

    the idea that USSR somehow loves Romanians

    The USSR didn’t love Romanians. Stalin gave Romania the whole of Transylvania because it accepted that Romania needed to be compensated elsewhere for the loss of Bessarabia. But in 1990 the USSR had no reason to accept an American military action at its borders, and the Americans didn’t want to provoke a backlash in the form of a hardliner coup against Gorbachev by risking such an action anyway.

    It’s a very retarded idea that there was any chance of an international military action against Romania: the USSR obviously didn’t want such, and the Americans couldn’t do it in a Warsaw Pact state.

    USSR could not control the Armenian-Azeri conflict within their own borders

    It was actually allowed to happen by the central authorities in the hope of creating a need for a central intervention. While it didn’t exactly pan out that way, the end result was a frozen conflict which to this day facilitates some Russian influence in both countries, so I wouldn’t say it was a very bad idea. The USSR also didn’t allow an American military intervention in Azerbaijan.

    You probably don’t realize that, during interwar, USSR was the most active enemy of Romania

    We’re very much aware of it. Just as Hitler proposed Hungary to militarily attack Czechoslovakia in September 1938 (which the Hungarian government, with its nonexistent military, wisely rejected), Stalin similarly asked us to attack Romania in alliance with him. The Hungarian government rejected a military alliance with the USSR, but threatened military action in August 1940 (tacitly acknowledging that the most Romanian troops would need to be stationed on the USSR border…), which led to the Second Vienna Award. It’s discussed at length in Hungarian historiography.

    Hungary was protected by the Czechoslovak buffer zone of Zakarpattie

    That’s nonsense. The USSR didn’t share a common border with Czechoslovakia either, and a short border along the Carpathian mountain range wouldn’t have mattered much anyway.

    our Kelemen has been refused entry

    He had a Romanian diplomatic passport.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  440. @Beckow

    There is also the whole ‘who was here first‘ argument. Germans (and to some extent Magyars) created an elaborate mythical history where all was German in the past, except the remote Pripyat marshes.

    Maybe it’s just me, but now you seem to be emotionally invested in the idea of Slavs being there first.

    What needs to be realized is that because the peoples in question are genetically closely related to each other (Hungarians more closely related to the northern than southern neighbors, but with gene flow from both directions), it doesn’t matter very much who was where a millennium ago. Hungarians are almost as much the descendants of those Carpathian Basin Slavs from the 9th or 5th centuries as Slovaks. And of course not only Slavs lived in the Carpathian Basin at the time…

    West invents that Avars must had controlled the whole region for 200 years

    You risk getting into crankery. The Avars were very much there and controlled the Carpathian Basin. There are multiple sources for that. There are multiple archaeological findings attesting to the presence of a rich (lots of gold in the graves) nomad aristocracy with larger numbers of nomad commoners, though of course there were many other peoples (Germanic, Slavic, Sarmatian, etc.) living under their rule.

    A Hungarian archaeologist (Gyula László) proposed that the late Avars were actually Magyars (the so called “double conquest” theory), which is still popular among nationalists (because, you see, “we were there earlier”), but it is now thoroughly rejected by basically all historians in Hungary. (I don’t think it ever gained currency elsewhere.) It was a scholarly theory, but untenable in light of later findings. Some cranks even propose that Magyar presence was continuous since the Huns or even millennia earlier: these were never scholarly theories, just crackpot ideas.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  441. @Mr. Hack

    My 87 year old roommate

    Why do you have a roommate, if it’s not a secret?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  442. Seraphim says:
    @reiner Tor

    That’s a good one: “Stalin gave Romania the whole of Transylvania”. But I tell you a better one: Khrushchev wanted to give it back to Hungary!
    Documents from the Archive of the former Securitate (of Romania) showed that:
    ” A rumor quickly spread in the region (Transylvania) on the basis of which it was suggested that the new government officials in Hungary were negotiating with Tito in Yugoslavia about their countries’ borders. It was rumored that Hungary was planning to give part of its territory to Yugoslavia, receiving in return Transylvania, all with the blessing of the Soviet Union. The rumor created a state of panic among the Romanian population, who expressed fears about their own future status if this plan were put into operation. Raluca Ripan, then Rector of Babeş University, exploited this situation and started to warn the Romanian students about the danger of a so-called ‘Magyar peril’ emerging from the ‘revisionist intentions of the Hungarian revolutionaries in Budapest.’
    @https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/openness-russia-eastern-europe-russia-programs/2016-11-18/echoes-1956-hungarian-revolt
    Those Russians! Can you trust them?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  443. @Seraphim

    That’s a good one: “Stalin gave Romania the whole of Transylvania”.

    That’s what he did. He could’ve set any border he liked, though the truce agreement with Romania stipulated that “the whole or part of Northern Transylvania awarded to Hungary in the Second Vienna Award should be returned to Romania.” So Stalin was agreement-bound to return some of Northern Transylvania to Romania, but he didn’t have to give back the whole of it. It’s usually thought in Hungary that if Horthy managed to change sides on October 15, 1944, then Hungary might have kept some of Northern Transylvania, though it must be noted that the Hungarian truce agreement’s only territorial provisions were that Hungary was to withdraw from all territories it received 1938-41. That Horthy was immediately deposed (and the weak man even signed his own resignation and handing over of his powers to Szálasi) weakened the Hungarian position further. So for Stalin it was a no-brainer to give back the whole area to Romania, because Hungary was fully defeated and destroyed, while Romania switched sides while still possessing a relatively large army and participating in the later Soviet campaigns.

    Khrushchev wanted to give it back to Hungary!

    He told Kádár sometime in the early-to-mid sixties shortly before his fall that the border between Hungary and the USSR could be changed based on the ethnic composition of the population. He said that it was anyway a small area only, and that it was the right thing to do. He then went on to say that it might have implications for the Hungarian border with Romania. Kádár was surprised, and he rejected the offer out of hand. Similarly, in 1958, Khrushchev told Kádár that just as Soviet troops were leaving Romania, they might leave Hungary, too. Kádár rejected that, too.

    In both cases the seriousness of Khrushchev’s offer is difficult to assess. Kádár certainly viewed both as tests of loyalty which he passed. Did Khrushchev truly want to withdraw Soviet troops from Hungary in 1958, just two years after the revolution? There are reasons to doubt it. Did he truly want to change borders? He was insane, but was he that insane?

    Anyway, after the fall of Khrushchev the idea was quickly dropped (Brezhnev had a power base in Ukraine), and I seriously doubt Gorbachev ever entertained such ideas. In March 1990 he had bigger problems already.

  444. melanf says:
    @Hyperborean

    but even if Elodians are interpreted as Jews and not Germans

    People who live in ghettos behind barbed wire, wear armbands, and wait with horror for the “final solution”? The prototype is quite obvious

    uggest that the subjects of Ymir obtained their powers as a result of a demonic pact, everyone hates them because they went on a 5000 year genocide

    This is clearly a mythical story (like the one believed by the inhabitants of the Paradise, before they opened the papers of Gregory )

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  445. AP says:
    @Beckow

    . If there is a claim that Vikings from Scandinavia were ruling in E Europe, or that Huns and Avars controlled the Carpathian basin – you have to find some genetic evidence for their presence.

    Rurik’s DNA has been traced to Sweden:

    http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~mozhayski/genealogy/teksty/ydna.html

    Thanks to this, i.e. Rurikid project, we can now say that Rurik was a historical person who was born on the Roslagen seashore (slightly north of Stockholm, Sweden). However, he was of Finno-Ugrian descent (haplogroup N1c1 (earlier described as N3a)). Although all of well matching N1c1 Rurikid princes are descended from Yaroslav Mudry (978 – 1054), it seems that his ancestors including Rurik (b. ab. 820 – 876) himself, also belonged to this haplogroup. A group of Swedes, whose ancestors lived in or close to Uppsala, and whose genetic haplotypes are very close to these of the Rurikids, seems to be confirming the theory that Rurik, in fact, originated from Sweden.

    I did Familytreee DNA and confirmed paternal family legend but found likely Norwegian rather than Swedish roots which was surprising.

    The examples like British in India are very misleading: completely different dynamic.

    Not at first. Foreign adventurers/traders take over an area, and establish some rudimentary state structures so they can better exploit it. The difference is that the East India Company was based in London whereas the Rurkids’ enterprise was based in Novgorod and Kiev (though under Sviatoslav it nearly moved its HQ to Bulgaria, which tells us how much it cared for “East Slavic nation-building”). Eventually of course assimilation with natives occurred – though later than Ukrainian and Russian nationalists claim.

    If the British who ruled India has assimilated with locals they would still be just a drop in the bucket in terms of genetic contribution. As is true of Asian descent in Russia.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  446. @melanf

    People who live in ghettos behind barbed wire, wear armbands, and wait with horror for the “final solution”? The prototype is quite obvious

    Originally I thought so, but I was wondering why the only ones with distinctly Jewish names, the Akkerman clan, are then racially distinct? As far as I am aware (unless I missed some character?), all the Ymirians on Paradise have gentile German names.

    This is clearly a mythical story (like the one believed by the inhabitants of the Paradise, before they opened the papers of Gregory )

    Due to the date, I connected it to an accusation/original sin like the murder of Christ, but the form of refutal the Eldian restorationists on Marley engage in seems different – denying specific massacres like ‘Lago’s’ Tragedy’, ‘Monte’s Havoc’ or ‘Valley’s Calamity’ occured and saying that if they really did go on a 5000 year brutal genocide, then how come there are even any Marleyans left?

    • Replies: @melanf
  447. Seraphim says:

    Was ever any doubt that Rurik came from Scandinavia? The Chronicle said it emphatically.
    A. A. Vasiliev endorsed the idea expressed in 1836 by F. Kruse who first suggested the identification of Rurik of Novgorod with Rorik of Jutland or Friesland, mentioned in the Western annals.
    A Jutish-Danish prince, who in the middle of the ninth century took part in several raids to France and even to England; he failed in 855 to seize the throne of Denmark; was expelled from Friesland in 867 and then returned at his possessions in that country in 870. These obscure years of Rorik’s life in the Western evidence coincide with Rurik’s activities in the East. He was for a while a vassal of Charles the Bald (845-877), but later took an oath of eternal fidelity to Louis the German (843-876) at Aachen in 873. This meeting with Louis the German is the last record of Rorik’s life in Western annals. He died about 875-876, in any case before 882. Some Western chronicles state that Rorik did not remain all the time in Germany and Belgium, but also visited a great number of oversea regions.
    The suggestion of Kruse was accepted also by N. Beliaev and G. Vernadsky. Beliaev even made him the mastermind of the attacks against Constantinople in 859-60.

  448. Mr. Hack says:
    @reiner Tor

    I own a large house – he’s great company, walks around with a Farmers Almanac, knows geography even better than you do, and is computer savy too! 🙂

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  449. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    You over-interpret what I wrote. My point is that standard Western history of Central and Eastern Europe is over-simplified, focuses too much on recorded migrations and external attacks. With DNA we have a new data point that implies that a there was a lot more continuity there and a lot less disruptive external empire building. I fully agree that many Germanic tribes crossed the region, some were dominant for a time in some places, others left their genetic mark. The same is true – to a lesser extent – about Asian nomadic tribes that raided the region, but they left minimal DNA.

    Based on that data, one has to re-evaluate whether too much emphasis in the past was given to a few fear-mongering sources that focused on the unusual, the violent, the newsworthy. I think that has been the case and in the West it has been assisted by a bias against the eastern ethnic groups, primarily the Slavs. They wanted to see less of them, so their histories downplayd the peaceful, farmer-pastoralist populations. Now DNA says that was wrong.

    emotionally invested in the idea of Slavs being there first

    I am not talking about ‘firsts’, who knows going back 10,000 years? But it is also incorrect to limit what clearly was a much larger area where the Balto-Slavic languages originate. I used the silly ‘came out of the Pripyat marshes‘ story as an example of how educated historians can get it wrong. Mostly because they want to. Adjusting that balance is not emotionalism, it is a part of search for truth.

    The Avars were very much there and controlled the Carpathian Basin.

    They were there, but only in a small part of the Carpathian basin. There clearly was no large, all controlling Avar state – there is no DNA evidence. Their numbers were small, they died a lot because of their lifestyle – basically banditry, and their geographic space was most likely just the open steppes between Danube and Tisza, and parts of Pannonia. They moved around a lot, scared a lot of people, but were either exterminated or simply not numerous enough to leave a mark. Definitely not north of Danube. In 790’s there is a written record of Carolinians creating a very small protected region, around Neusiedl lake for Avars because they were being attacked by the other tribes (probably Slavs). Then the Avars completely disappeared. It is more complicated, it is a big region.

    It is an interesting discussion.

  450. melanf says:
    @Hyperborean

    Originally I thought so, but I was wondering why the only ones with distinctly Jewish names, the Akkerman clan, are then racially distinct? As far as I am aware (unless I missed some character?), all the Ymirians on Paradise have gentile German names.

    Part of the Eldian people have clearly Semitic features

    all the Ymirians on Paradise have gentile German names

    Zoe Hanji

    Don’t know how the name (definitely not German), but looks typically Jewish

  451. Beckow says:
    @AP

    I don’t care about Rurik or a few other individuals, they were mostly cut-throats who died early. They were a drop in the bucket in the huge eastern European region, they barely scratched the surface. If there were a few thousand of them, they were insignificant in what was even then a population of a few million Slavs, Finns, Iranian tribes, etc… There were probably more Byzantian traders and priests there.

    They disappeared into the mass of the local population – that is what DNA tells us. You live by a sword, you die by a sword. In a way, they were evolutionary failures since they failed to leave enough descendants. This ‘knights and swords’ game that you like to play is not what real history was like.

    Heroism is over-rated, it is actually kind of stupid. As we see with today’s Scandinavia and their reverse-heroism politics, it is a small step from invading others for no good reason, to giving up your patrimony for no good reason. Both result from a lack of attachment to one’s identity.

    • Replies: @melanf
  452. @Dmitry

    one of the most common insults in Russian

    It’s not common.

    “bydlo is a word only Jews use”.

    Absolutely yes. (Well, real Jews and shabbos-goyim who think they can fool others into believing they are part of the ZOG by adopting the crassest and most disgusting of Jewish mannerisms.)

    I didn’t see any sign Anton Chadsky who creates “vatnik” has a relation to the Jews.

    The “vatnik” meme was created, funded and disseminated by Jews. Even the names of the Jews personally responsible for it are known. (No, not “Anton Chadsky”.)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Dmitry
  453. melanf says:
    @Beckow

    I don’t care about Rurik or a few other individuals, they were mostly cut-throats who died early.

    Well, according to the chronicle, Rurik was elected as “President” by union of the two Slavic and two Finnish tribes. Achievements of Rurik (according to the chronicle) in this post is quite peaceful – the Foundation of Novgorod and other towns.

    • Replies: @melanf
  454. @anonymous coward

    In fact, “bydlo” is a Polish word that means “cattle”. Poles used it to denigrate Ukrainians. In modern Russian it means stupid people who allow others to tread on them and would follow any leader. Nothing specifically Jewish in this word.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  455. Dmitry says:
    @anonymous coward

    It’s not common. bydlo is a word only Jews use

    I can see you don’t know Russian, so your repetition of this topic is strange. The word is ubiquitous.

    To copypaste what I wrote in the last discussion.

    I was curious about its origins and searched the online tool of the national corpus. Polish sense of the word came into Russian literature from the 1860s. In the national corpus database, Krestovsky is the first writer to use it in a modern insulting sense. Then you can see a same usage was in late 19th century writers like Gleb Uspensky, Tsensky, Nikolai Leskov, Aleksey Pisemsky.

    In the USSR, the word continued to be used in the same sense but less frequently. Then after the end of the USSR, the word became very popular again.

    The “vatnik” meme was created, funded and disseminated by Jews. Even the names of the Jews personally responsible for it are known. (No, not “Anton Chadsky”.)

    It’s simply an internet meme/cartoon drawn by Anton Chadsky for his own social media. It represents Chadsky’s politics and humour.

    I first saw it about 2012 on some video game or politics forum. People began using the terms without the meme around 2014.

  456. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Last time we discussed this topic, I searched in the national corpus of literature database to see when it actually entered Russian.

    In the literature database it is used in modern sense in Russian literature from the 1860s years.

    First writer listed in the database is Krestovsky and he used in modern Russian sense. And then it’s used in the database with a lot of writers in the second half of 19th century.

    Then it’s usage in literary corpus and general popularity is less common in the USSR (becomes less fashionable).

    Poles used it to denigrate Ukrainians.

    Don’t Poles just use it in the same general sense as in Russian? – I will ask Polish friends.

    But as an insult against Ukrainians, it’s still common

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Dmitry
    , @AP
  457. @Dmitry

    I will ask Polish friends.

    Good idea. I will ask my Polish friends, too.

  458. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    I have an uncle in Ukraine who uses it as a word to describe anyone who is not a nobleman, i.e. the general population. He enjoys mocking Ukrainian politics and the messes the “bydlo” make, as much as some of the Russians here do.

    • Replies: @Adam
  459. Gerad. 1 says:
    @Dmitry

    Are you sure about them mostly having Chinese and Nigerian friends? I thought all the children of ex Ussr state officials and oligarchs fraternised with eachother in the elite British schools. Poroshenko son educated in England apparently is best friends with the son of a businessmen from Novisibirsk……and this was the same youngest ,russian speaking son caught wearing a Rossiya sports shirt!
    This raises questions about the future if many of the next set of Russian and Ukrop elites are friends of eachother from childhood

    On the subject of none of these guys wanting to talk in “ukrainian” we have not only Valtsmans son……but Klitschko younger!

    I am almost certain that it’s proof he hangs around with russians/ukrainian expats in the US, and so spends all the time speaking Russian……..pretty much what I think is the situation with Poroshenko’s son (well that and the fact the parents probably spoke russian at home all the time)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Mr. Hack
  460. Gerad. 1 says:
    @Dmitry

    But writing Ukrop/Russian was common for many jews in this type of situation in the 70s/80s. It took a long time for Zhirinovsky be established as jewish
    I had a look if Urgant said something( you said comedian on perviy kanal came up with Valtsman) , but I can’t see anything

    Of course, ridiculous claims of people being jewish are made all the time. .. but I am sure this one is accurate.
    There is a dilemma on Yatsenyuk though. Described as definitely a jew by many……He is also wanted by the CKR for possible war crimes in Chechnya (Ukrop nationalist fighting for Chechnya)! A corrupt , weakling and incompetent imbecile…….you would think he can’t be both jew/Ukrop war criminal in Chechnya at the same time!

  461. Gerad. 1 says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The way you have mischaracterised Medvedchuk’s father is, of course, brain dead. Not only false but also hugely hypocritical.
    Poroshenko’s wife is the daughter of a Soviet Ambassador! Couldn’t be a bigger enthusiast for the USSR then that….How does this correspond in the Poroshenko house with the disgusting decommunisation laws?
    That’s nearly as embarrassing as the Klimkin situation

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  462. Gerad. 1 says:
    @Dmitry

    It’s only recently been revealed that valtsman/ Poroshenko’s wife was born in Kazakhstan

  463. Dmitry says:
    @Gerad. 1

    Are you sure about them mostly having Chinese and Nigerian friends? I thought all the children of ex Ussr state officials and oligarchs fraternised with eachother in the elite British schools.

    Mix of nationalities would be different, in different schools and courses.

    Also ratio of nationalities in general has changed since 10 years ago in a lot of courses – i.e. more Chinese, relative to Russians than previously.

    Also different if it’s preparation school, summer school, or real permanent boarding school. In permanent boarding school, all the nationalities have to mix up

    Poroshenko son educated in England apparently is best friends with the son of a businessmen from Novisibirsk……and this was the same youngest ,russian speaking son caught wearing a Rossiya sports shirt!

    Poroshenko’s daughter has an open profile on Facebook. But we should not to post it though.

    It’s fair to laugh at his criminal father and his fake medals, but his children just seem like normal people.

    Anyway, their friends are Russians, Chinese, Nigerians, Kazakhs, Malaysians, Israelis, Vietnamese, Indians.
    She has friends from Ekaterinburg, Moscow, Peter, etc.

    But it’s not invasion of privacy to post her former boarding school from YouTube with the graduation year. . Tuition fee is $53,000 a year

    Scroll through the video of the school, and there is Poroshenko’s daughter on the right e.g. at 2:19 in video. (Russian student numbers are surpassed by Chinese a lot in that school)

  464. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerad. 1

    If any Ukie deserves to be ‘characterised’as a NAZI, it would be Medvedchuk’s father, so why the big crocodile tears for him or his father – they were both douche-bags as far as I can see. I’m not crazy about any of the Ukrainian oligarchs, so why would I find Medvedchuk as a big winner amongst these despicable creatures?

  465. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerad. 1

    Wow, you’ve really uncovered something here: a lot of Ukrainians feel more comfortable speaking in Russian than in Ukrainian. That’s what a few centuries of Russification can do to a people. Funny, I don’t see Klitschko stumping anywhere at all for Russian language rights in Ukraine, do you?

  466. melanf says:
    @melanf

    Here is a monument to Rurik and Oleg (in Staraya Ladoga – presumably the first “capital” of Rurik). Rurik with the scroll (that funny – hardly he knew how to read). But the peaceful nature of Rurik’s rule is well shown.

  467. @AnonFromTN

    As I stated in an earlier comment, the AnonFromTN personage, who unfortunately is not that Anon anymore especially after he told everybody where he works, down to the university department (there aren’t that many Russians/Ukrainian professors in Vanderbilt medical school or a medical-related department), is a bitter, angry old Sovok man.

    The fact that he hates both Nashville and Ukraine says a *lot* about him. When you hate both your hometown AND the current place you are living in, this tells me there’s nothing wrong with either Southerners or “Ukies”. If you hate Ukraine so much and currently living in Nashville, why don’t you embrace what Nashville has to offer, for good or bad?

    One tidbit that AnonFromTN should keep in mind that wherever you move to, the key to happiness and living a long, fulfilling life is to accept, and adapt to, your current city for what it is. Every place has its own strengths and weaknesses, and this includes both Ukraine and Nashville.

    Unless you can find a way to move to Moscow or New York, you can’t change the fact that you are in Nashville for the long haul. You are in Tennessee. Learn to embrace the southern hospitality, country music, and the strong Protestant influence.

    And I would disagree that Nashville people are not intellectual: There’s significant southern old money that’s palpable the moment you step on a Nashville-bound flight: It’s in fact one of the wealthiest metropolitan areas in the US after adjusting for cost of living. I know you hate old money, but old money only sticks around people with a certain amount of self-discipline and work ethic. Hating on them for no reason is the most Sovok thing ever.

    I’m sure a Vanderbilt professor can do much better than going on multiple hateful rampages on some blog ran by a guy half your age. This really isn’t doing academics much favor: Their reputation among the masses as socially-maladjusted irrational people is horrible as it is. No need to propagate that further with unhinged tirades.

    And my experience of Nashville is the complete opposite of your caricature of it. Yes, it is southern, yes half the residents have southern accents, and yes it is the capital of country music. However, it’s a major city, albeit a mid-sized one, at the end of the day.

    I’m starting to feel like you don’t live in Nashville or its suburbs, but somewhere like Dickson or Maury. If you’re living in Dickson and calling this “Nashville”, then you should really know better and time to move closer into the city. If those hateful comments on Middle Tennessee is formed from living in Davidson or Williamson, then you are a troll.

    I’m anti-Ukie myself too: I’m boycotting it until they restore practical economic ties with Russia. On the other hand, what I can’t take seriously is an anti-Ukie who on top of that, propagates the exact propaganda about the South made by the pro-Ukie neoliberalism.txt set.

  468. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Actually your idea seems to be agreeing with recent research, although I do not understand well this topic

    The division into Northern and southern Russian seems to have become common place among anthropologists. Here is an a comic illustration (Soutern/Northern Russian)

  469. Mr. Hack says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Poor, poor old Jannisar, not happy with his life in Ukraine and still not happy with his life in the US.
    Poor old guy probably never heard the old axiom: ‘you can’t have your cake and eat it too”

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  470. Dmitry says:
    @AquariusAnon

    professors in Vanderbilt

    Why are you chasing him?

    For a topic about Ukraine elections, he is the only person here who lives years there and who has family who still lives there. He’ll know more about most aspects of topic than us, who do not live in Ukraine, and did not live so many years.

    I’d like to read more comments from him, and less from others,. There’s a surreal internet culture, where everyone thinks they are an expert, even when they don’t know anything about a topic. And then people with actual knowledge sometimes correct them, and usually the knowledgeless people refuse to accept anything, because they have no interest in real world anyway, but rather feel offended that someone would overturn various strange fantasies which were emotionally important to them

    Learn to embrace the southern hospitality, country music, and the strong Protestant

    Lol I remember the argument between you, which was amusing and good entertainment to read.

    But to finish joking, he is a cultured person and knows classical music. The idea someone who loves Bach and Beethoven, should listen to country music, is like expecting someone who eats real food, with real ingredients, to fall in love with Macdonald’s.

    • Agree: Beckow
    • Replies: @AP
    , @AP
  471. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    For a topic about Ukraine elections, he is the only person here who lives years there and who has family who still lives there. He’ll know more about most aspects of topic than us, who do not live in Ukraine, and did not live so many years

    He argues that Ukraine is down to 22 million people, that its economy keeps collapsing, etc.

    He lives in TN but claimed that there are no US auto plants in the USA. There is a huge one in TN.

    The guy knows nothing beyond his lab. Or whatever nonsense he reads about Ukraine from some pro-Russian websites.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  472. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    I’ve only driven through Nashville, but I had one of life’s memorable meals at some barbecue place in Memphis. Fantastic! And even though I don’t like blues music much (I have a weird aversion to Africanized music, don’t like jazz or R & B either), Beale Street was impressive and worth seeing.

    My favorite places in the south are Charleston and Savannah.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  473. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    The idea someone who loves Bach and Beethoven, should listen to country music, is like expecting someone who eats real food, with real ingredients, to fall in love with Macdonald’s.

    There is also good country music, presumably.

    Someone who can appreciate great food in France or Italy might not like McDonald’s, can also appreciate burgers or barbecue if he is normal.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  474. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I don’t remember he said he was unhappy with the US life, when we had that discussion. He was saying something like Nashville Opera is not acceptable, and he has to go to Chicago to listen to a good orchestra.

    I was impressed and by this level of connoisseur.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  475. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    There supposedly were more discussions regarding his dissatisfaction with Memphis that AquariusAnon recalls, to which I chimed in. His aversion to all things really Ukrainian (not some idealized version that he’s concocted for himself in his warped little mind) oozes out of almost every one of his comments.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  476. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    (I have a weird aversion to Africanized music, don’t like jazz or R & B either)

    To really, really state that you ‘don’t like jazz’, I would suggest that you take this very simple litmus test. Go to spotify and play ‘Kind of Blue’ by Miles Davis (the full version). If after listening to this masterpiece of jazz, if you still don’t like this type of music, then I will believe you. Let me know what you think, Okay? 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  477. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I hope that you have a system that captures the lower, more subtle ranges of the music evoked in this album. My speaker (as in singular) at work is too tinny to really capture the depths and nuances of this music.

  478. @AP

    Someone who does not like McDonald’s is by definition a bad person whose opinion cannot be trusted on any matter whatsoever.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Mr. Hack
  479. @AquariusAnon

    It is flattering that so many people discuss my humble person and appear to follow my posts (even though some “quote” things I never said, but that’s natural: false narratives require fake quotes).

    It is encouraging that some resort to ad hominem criticism (like calling me “sovok” or “janissary”): this is a sure sign that they have no substantive arguments.

    It is funny that some grossly underestimate the number of Russian faculty at high-ranking research-oriented Universities in the US.

    Right now I have too many things to do, so I cannot respond to everything.
    I’ll just say one thing: there is only one recipe for happiness: do what you really like and are good at. The rest is chaff.

    To be continued.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  480. Beckow says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Having varied opinions and tastes is a plus, and feedback is always a gift. If you agree with someone 100%, you should go and see a psychiatrist.

    I still can’t decide on whether I like McDonald’s – great fries, but the ambiance is a bit plasticky…

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  481. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Although I like fast food (and McDonalds is Okay, but not the best example of this type of food IMHO), this statement is a little strong? 🙂

  482. @Mr. Hack

    I own a large house

    In that case presumably you meant “housemate”, not “roommate” (?)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  483. Adam says:
    @AP

    I have an uncle in Ukraine who uses it as a word to describe anyone who is not a nobleman, i.e. the general population.

    So larping runs in the family

    • Replies: @AP
  484. Adam says:
    @Beckow

    That’s my point – in cases where a conquering tribe took over, or even just took over the ‘elite‘ (whatever that would be in the early Middle Ages), we see a massive DNA shift, especially on male side. It is true in England with Anglo-Saxons or Vikings there, it is true on the continent with IE invaders.

    Anglo-Saxons and to a much lesser extent Vikings partially replaced the population of Britain, on the other hand the Normans only replaced the elite and the genetic impact was minimal. I’m not sure why you put elite in quotes, the Middle Ages had a very well defined noble elite, and even if it was the migration period or much earlier there would be no ambiguity of who the elite was.

    My point is Germanic peoples used to be widespread in Eastern Europe as were Baltic and Iranian peoples. These people were probably not very genetically distinct from Slavs and assimilated into the Slavic population fairly easily. The nature of Slavic expansion was probably similar to Norsemen in Britain.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Beckow
  485. Epigon says:
    @Adam

    And what were these Germanic tribes in East Europe?

  486. Mr. Hack says:
    @for-the-record

    A roommate is a person with whom one shares a living facility such as a room or dormitory without being family or romantically involved. Similar terms include dormmate, suitemate, housemate, or flatmate

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roommate

    So, it looks like the two terms may be used interchangeably, in this day and age. And for the record, just in case anyone is interested to know, my 87 year old housemate is not my ‘partner’*

    *not that there’s anything wrong with that 🙂

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  487. Beckow says:
    @Adam

    …Germanic peoples used to be widespread in Eastern Europe

    Which ones and where? I agree that they moved through the region, but is there any documented settlement of Germanic tribes – other than Crimea where they survived in small numbers till 18th century? Was there a place where they settled as farmers or pastoralists? Those were the only two sustainable ways to survive. Everything else was noisy, but actually kind of meaningless – early deaths from fighting, few descendants.

    Your DNA explanation that the Germanic tribes were actually genetically the same as local Balto-Slavic tribes – no DNA evidence for them – is circular. Then how were they German? At best, one can claim that they were heavily mixed and some spoke Germanic languages, but genetically they were like the local people.

    Your understanding of the Middle Age elite is a bit romantic. There were actually two groups that were the elite:
    – local tribal leaders and their extended families a retinue
    – the armed outsiders who came to pillage, and sometimes took over temporarily – and quickly inter-married with the locals.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Seraphim
  488. @AnonFromTN

    Its like the example that AP brought with food. If a restaurant is unable to cook French food, you don’t complain about why they can’t do this and how its not a real restaurant. Gotta eat what the chef specializes in. If you set foot into a Cantonese restaurant, then order some seafood or off the dim sum carts. In an American restaurant? Get a burger.

    Of course, if I force a Cantonese chef to cook steak, he either will have no clue how to cook it, or (more likely) he’ll cook it to a very mediocre quality.

    Same thing with cities. You are not in Chicago, so embrace Nashville. Yes, you can have frequent city breaks in Chicago to enjoy its culture as a treat, but to live a healthy life where you are, embrace what Nashville has to offer.

    I recall you liked Bluebird Cafe. That’s a great start, you can go there more often. If you really think Middle Tennessee natives are idiots, look for a transplant-dominated area populated mostly by university professors. The Nashville metropolitan area has at least 7 universities that I know of. Surely there must be a neighborhood that professors like to congregate in. In fact, Hillsboro Village that’s like 3 blocks from your workplace feels like a generic college town. Nothing uneducated or even culturally southern about that area. You can move there. Even if most professors don’t actually live in Hillsboro Village, by now you should be able to pinpoint the neighborhoods or suburbs with the least southerners and most graduate school degree holders.

    And yeah, your hatred of Ukraine takes it to whole new levels too. What have Ukrainians done to you? Did a Galician steal your girl? Did a Ukrainian-speaking professor from Lviv plagiarize your latest research result?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  489. @Mr. Hack

    They are similar terms, yes, but there is a difference:

    Roommate is a synonym of housemate.

    As nouns the difference between housemate and roommate is that housemate is someone living in the same house while roommate is a person with whom one shares a room, as at university etc.

    https://wikidiff.com/housemate/roommate

    It does appear, though, that they are sometimes used interchangeably, but only in the US and Canada (must be [the] Ukrainian influence).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  490. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    His comments are usually interesting and I hope he continues writing here. He is from Ukraine, has a lot of old knowledge, and mainly writes from his personal experience. He is oldtimer who was writing how Kiev cake tasted in the 1980s.

    Of course, people who emigrate, often focus more on the negative aspects of the place they emigrated from – nobody says they are objective witnesses.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  491. Mr. Hack says:
    @for-the-record

    only in the US and Canada (must be [the] Ukrainian influence).

    Actually, the ‘Ukrainian influence’ would only be discernible in the pleasant aromas wafting out of the kitchen…

  492. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    I’m all for ‘freedom of the press’. It’s the way that I was brought up, the way it should be everywhere! I’m glad that Karlin feels the same way and allows most everyone a chance to express their opinions here.

  493. Dmitry says:
    @Beckow

    As a concept and execution of that concept, McDonald’s is a work of genius.

    But as we are aware, the food is the weakest part of it, and you wouldn’t expect a cuisine expert to fall in love with McDonald’s “food”, anymore than you would expect musical people to like country music.

    Btw I just typed Nashville Symphony in YouTube though and it looks like they are good enough to produce even CDs for Naxos (cheap but good) record label.

    So our friend actually has a good orchestra in Nashville.

    Lol to summarize the discussion, Nashville Symphony Orchestra performing “bydlo” for Naxos record label.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  494. AP says:
    @Adam

    It’s not larping if it’s real.

  495. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    Naxos is a great record label – lots of good stuff at less than average prices. I love baroque music, their Vivaldi Oboe concerti volumes 1 – 3 are as good as it gets!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  496. AP says:

    Either pre-election exaggeration, or Ukraine seems to be approaching the point when its missiles can hit Moscow:

    https://www.unian.info/society/10509540-ukraine-develops-cruise-missiles-with-range-of-over-1-000-km-poroshenko.html

    [MORE]

    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has announced that high-precision cruise missiles with a range of over 1,000 kilometers and capable of carrying a 150-kilogram combat load were developed in Ukraine.

    We’ve started the most important tests of cruise missiles… We have a missile, which have successfully passed tests, which is capable of shooting over 1,000 kilometers and carry a 150- kilogram combat load. This is a high-precision [weapon], which was created by Ukrainian specialists. The Armed Forces of Ukraine are now training how to use them,” he told a Svoboda Slova [Freedom of Speech] panel show on Ukraine’s ICTV channel on April 9.

    “We can now destroy any ship within a radius of 300 kilometers that would dare to approach and attack us, and a small and middle class ship will not be able to resist this missile. This is a sharp increase in our defense capability,” the president added. Poroshenko noted Ukraine had previously “given up” cruise missiles that could carry nuclear warheads.

    The president also reiterated Ukraine had conducted final tests of the Vilkha-M (“Alder”) missile system. “Today we have Smerch and Uragan [multiple rocket launcher systems] with a range of no more than 65-70 kilometers, and now they will be precise with a range of 130 kilometers,” he added.

    As UNIAN reported earlier, in early December 2018, the Ukrainian military successfully tested the domestic new ground-launched cruise missile Neptun (“Neptune”). Completion of the development and commencement of tests of the ground-based cruise missile complex to hit the coastal targets within the Neptun project is scheduled for 2019. The national budget for 2019 provides for more than UAH 102 billion (US$3.8 billion) for the needs of the Ukrainian army. On April 5, Ukraine successfully tested the Neptun anti-ship missile defense system in Odesa region amid the Russian Federation’s opposition by electronic warfare weapons.

  497. @AquariusAnon

    OK, now I did what I should have today, so I can answer. Since this is the newest post, I am going to answer this one.

    Food. If you really live in the US, you should know that in an American (or fusion) restaurant you have much better choice than burger. If you want meat, you can get steak, barbequed pork, or prime ribs. Nobody grinds decent meat into burgers. What goes there is best described by my former grad student: lips and assholes.

    City. When you do research in the US, if you go by geography, you shoot yourself into the foot. You choose a good University or a research center, and the city it’s in comes in a package. Vandy is luckier than some, as Nashville is not too bad. The best thing about it is that what they call traffic here would be called empty roads in NY. Locals are mostly good-natured, they will allow you to change lanes on the road (if they see your car, which is not always the case), whereas in NY you have 30 milliseconds to make your move. The upside is that NY drivers are alert: if you do make your move, you can be 100% sure that they see you. I guess that’s the result of natural selection: those who drove like Southerners in NY are already dead. In Nashville people drive cars as if they are riding horses: they can turn left from the right lane, or right from the left lane, so you have to watch out all the time. Still, there are worse places than Nashville: Duke is in Durham, where the only way you can walk safely is with a cocked gun, ready to shoot first. Duke faculty does not live in Durham, all live in Chapel Hill nearby (where UNC is). Mayo clinic looks completely out of place in Rochester (which, in contrast to NY state, they pronounce “raw Chester”, as if there is a cooked Chester somewhere): a huge medical research complex in the middle of a typical corn town.

    As to Universities, if you live in the US you should know that every outfit better than community college calls itself University. Vanderbilt is the only University worth the name in Nashville, everything else is a shithole. Particularly Nashville State University – I gave talks there a couple of times and met with their faculty. I am 100% sure that the great majority of what they call faculty would never pass our grad program qualifying exam.

    Other people. I have enough intelligent people at work, including faculty, post-docs, graduate and undergraduate students. I don’t need neighbors to socialize with. I lived long enough in Soviet multi-apartment buildings, where you meet your neighbors on the stairs all the time. I don’t want to see my neighbors unless I want to, and that’s exactly what I have: an acre of land, where I only see one neighbor when he mows his grass and I mow mine, so we say hi to each other and keep mowing.
    When I have free time (i.e., when I make my time free, like decide to have a vacation), I get the heck out of here. The world is big, and Nashville is only a small part of it. Chicago is only a 7 h drive, NY is an 11 h drive (at least the way I drive), Europe and Latin America are 8-10 h flight away, Russia, Japan, and Korea are a bit farther, but still not as far as Beijing or Shanghai (both are 16 h flight from a real airport, like Chicago, and you still need to get there).

    Ukraine. Looks like you never read my posts, or twisted them like a Ukie. I love Ukraine, and that’s exactly why I deeply resent what its governments (all of them, since 1991) did to it. Ukraine had a potential to be a decent moderately affluent country. Instead Ukrainian oligarchs, who either controlled or headed (like now) every government since 1991, were robbing the country blind. Beginning with the first thieving scum Kravchuk, they decided that rabid nationalism is the best smokescreen for their thievery. Everything else followed, so the country moved from bad to worse. Now it does not seem that is has any decent future. As Beckow here explained better than most, the chances of Ukraine joining the EU are zero: the donors wouldn’t want to increase their burden, whereas the receivers of aid wouldn’t want extra competition. So, Russian joke (When Ukraine will join the EU? Right after Turkey. And when Turkey will join the EU? Never.) is not a joke, but a literal truth. I am not even sure that Ukraine can restore normal trade with Russia, even if it gets a sane government now. Russia has already substituted everything it used to buy from Ukraine with domestic production, lots of qualified workers and engineers ran away from post-Maidan madhouse to Russia, so there is no chance that Ukraine can revive its industry. Their only hope now is agriculture, and there is a very realistic joke about it: there are three ways to lose money: pleasant (women), quick (betting on horses), and surefire (investing in agriculture).

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AquariusAnon
  498. @Mr. Hack

    Do they have Bach and Albinoni? Both are at the same level as Vivaldi.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  499. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    lots of qualified workers and engineers ran away from post-Maidan madhouse to Russia,

    And enough Ukrainian Boeing engineers left Russia that Boeing built a research center in Kiev for them:

    https://kpi.ua/en/node/11172

    so there is no chance that Ukraine can revive its industry

    Meanwhile Ukrainian engines are launching European rockets:

    https://strategeast.org/european-vega-light-launch-vehicle-with-ukrainian-engine-puts-european-space-agencys-earth-explorer-aeolus-satellite-into-orbit/

    And Ukraine keeps getting more European factories:

    http://www.fujikura-automotive.com/en/news/fauv-business-expansion.html

    At the end of September, Fujikura Automotive Ukraine Lviv launched production activities in Plant number 2. The total area of production space is 10.600 m2. It is planned to employ around 1.800 employees in that second plant.

    https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/08/23/kness-group-to-build-400-mw-panel-factory-in-ukraine/

    Solar panel factory in Vynnytsia

    https://www.just-auto.com/news/leoni-opens-second-wiring-systems-plant-in-ukraine_id178896.aspx

    “During the next four years, Leoni will create up to 5,000 jobs in the Ivano-Frankivsk region”, said Leoni Ukraine managing director, Stephan Schmidt. “We consider the investment to be an important step for the development of the Ukrainian youth, which we believe has enormous potential.”

    Leoni has already been operating a wiring systems plant in Ukraine, located in Stryi (Lviv region) since 2002. It is the largest Leoni plant in one building with a total production area of around 44,000 sq m and where more than 6,700 workers are employed.

    Their only hope now is agriculture, and there is a very realistic joke about it: there are three ways to lose money: pleasant (women), quick (betting on horses), and surefire (investing in agriculture).

    Sovok platitudes about economic matters are funny…as if Sovoks understand how economies work.

    https://media.bayer.com/baynews/baynews.nsf/id/Bayer-opens-state-of-the-art-seed-processing-facility-in-Ukraine

    Bayer opens state-of-the-art seed processing facility in Ukraine

    Monheim/Pochuiky, September 5, 2018 – Bayer today opened a state-of-the-art seed processing facility in Pochuiky, Zhytomyr region. The new facility is the largest of its kind in Ukraine, and one of the largest in Europe. Investment in the new plant amounts to 200 million U.S. dollars, and is part of a long-term investment into expanding DEKALB® corn seed processing in Ukraine.

    Etc. etc. This is the tip of the iceberg.

    But n your world Ukraine has 22 million people and no industry.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AquariusAnon
  500. @AP

    Sweet dreams! Just make sure you don’t wake up.

    If everything is so rosy, why are there so many cheap Ukrainian slaves in Poland that Polish authorities decided to crack down?

    • Replies: @AP
  501. @AnonFromTN

    You drive to Chicago and New York? As a Vanderbilt professor, you must be super busy. Its better for you to fly, and with Southwest’s hub in Nashville, its much faster, safer, and not much more expensive than driving. The only major “international” city I’d drive to from Nashville is Atlanta. And Atlanta pales in comparison to Chicago and NYC when it comes to the amenities you’re looking for.

    Yes, I know that burger meat cannot possibly compare with steak meat at any restaurant you go to. But you get what you pay for. A burger is usually half the price of a steak. Plus burgers come with fries and steak doesn’t. The only time I don’t order fries is if my main entree is already fried, e.g. fried chicken or fried catfish fillets.

    You’re right that Nashville natives are a very nice, good natured people as a whole. This is one of the last major cities in America that still has that old Americana vibe, with a heavy southern flavor too as icing on the cake, but given how fast it’s growing and with Amazon moving in, I’m not so sure if it will last another decade.

    New Yorkers are too rude and obnoxious. They can stay put instead of moving to Nashville trying to change its culture. Let AP deal with them.

    I haven’t been to North Carolina so I’m not gonna talk out of my ass, but I believe that Durham has gentrified to the point that its now safe enough for college students and millennial yuppies to live comfortably in, with many condos and refurbished houses everywhere. Chapel Hill likely has way bett