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Population Is Power: The Turkish Example
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map-turkey-minorities

Map of Greeks and Armenians in Turkey, before and after the genocides/expulsions of the 1910s-20s, and consequent demographic growth (via /r/Mapporn).

As I noted before, I can’t think of any other major region where the strategic population balance changed so drastically during the course of the past century.

Around 1914, there were 15.0 million Muslims in the Ottoman Empire, as well as 1.7 million Greeks and 1.1 million Armenians. However, the Muslims included many Arabs; subtracting the Arab regions gives us a Turkish population of 12.7 million.

This compared to a population of 5.3 million in Greece (1910), which may have grown to 5.5 million by 1914. There were 1.2 million Armenians in the Russian Empire (1897). Between 1897 and 1914, Russia’s population increased by 38%, in the Empire as a whole as well as in the Caucasus in particular; assuming that Armenians showed a similar rate of increase, there’d have been around 1.6 million of them at the outbreak of WW1.

So here are the approximate numbers as of 1914:

Turks: 12.7 million
Greeks: 7.2 million
Armenians: 2.8 million
Ratio: 12.7 million Turks to 10.0 million Greeks/Armenians (1:1.3)

Consequently, it’s not an exaggeration to talk of loose demographic parity between Turks and Greeks/Armenians, even without adjusting for perhaps 10% of Muslim “Turks” being Kurds.

***

Incidentally, this illustrates why Russia’s expansionist plans for the Black Sea during WW1 were no pipedream. It had more than ten times the population of Ottoman Turkey, and its potential Orthodox allies, the Greeks and Armenians, were themselves numerically equivalent to the Turks (especially after subtracting for the Kurds, whose separatist tendencies began in the late 19th century). Russian victory may well have led to a Magna Graecia in the west (as originally envisioned under the Treaty of Sèvres), a Greater Armenia would have constituted a landbridge to the Levant, and the Turks themselves would have been bottled up in the Anatolian heartlands. Just as Turkey was demographically successful relative to its neighbors, conversely, perhaps no other nation was spared so catastrophic a 20th century by the Russian Revolution.

However, the very fact that we today intuitively (but illogically) view this What If as a pipedream even in the context of WW1 testifies to the truth of the statement that population is power.

***

Fast forward a decade.

There were 13.6 million people in the much smaller Turkey of 1927, of whom almost all were Muslims (13.3 million); there were just 110,000 Greeks and 77,000 Armenians.

There were 1.6 million Armenians in the 1926 Soviet Census (including 743,000 Armenians out of 880,000 in the Armenian SSR). There were about 6.1 million Greeks in Greece in 1927 (6.2 million Greeks in the 1928 Census).

Approximate numbers for 1927:

Turks: 13.3 million
Greeks: 6.2 million
Armenians: 1.7 million
Ratio: 13.3 million Turks to 7.9 million Greeks/Armenians (1:1.7)

Fast forwards a century.

Current population of Turkey is around 81 million, and continues to add a million more per year. It is almost 99.8% Muslim at this point, with just 50,000 Armenians and 3,000 Greeks (Bartholomew I’s flock) remaining as of 2005; it’s no longer worth even counting them. Its Turkish component is at least 65 million, though Kurds make up 10-20% of the population and are increasing their share thanks to higher fertility rates; there may also be as many as 6 million Syrians by the 2020s.

After expanding from 1.4 million in 1950 and reaching 3.3 million in 1989, Armenia’s population has since plummeted to 3.0 million, though much of this has accrued to the ethnic cleansing of Azeris and the departure of Slavic settlers; that said, there is also substantial brain drain – more than 20,000 Armenians become Russian citizens every year, and I assume that many continue leaving for the West via their ties to the diaspora. The population of Greece has expanded much more modestly, from 6.2 million in 1928 to 11.1 million by 2011, before plummeting to 10.8 million by 2017, I assume mostly due to population ageing, prolonged low fertility, and sharply increased brain drain. Both Armenia (93%) and Greece (90%+) remain largely monoethnic states, even if immigration continues to eat away at Greece’s homogeneity.

Approximate numbers for 2017:

Turks: 80.8 million
Greeks: 10.7 million
Armenians: 3.0 million
Ratio: 80.8 million Turks to 13.7 million Greeks/Armenians (1:5.9)

Turkey has more than quintupled its population since the 1920s. In the meantime, Armenians had barely recovered from their genocide before getting hit by the demographic whammy that was the Soviet collapse. Although the Pontic genocide didn’t help, Greece did manage to eke out some meager growth – almost doubling its population – but has since gone into sharp reverse. One that might well be worse than it appears, since the Tsipras administration has been quite keen to welcome refugees despite Greece’s many other problems.

Consequently, during the course of a single century, the Greeks/Armenians went from demographic parity with the Turks to having six times fewer people.

***

PS. As I also once pointed out, Greece also holds what may be another demographic anti-record: Collapse of its share of the world population in the past 2,500 years. There may have been as many as 10 million Greeks in the Mediterranean in the 4th century BC. This figure was comparable to contemporary China (22 million in ~210 BC – whereas China now has 100x as many people!), and constituted 5% of the world population (today slightly more than 0.1% of the world population).

 
• Category: History • Tags: Armenia, Demographics, Greece, Turkey 
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  1. neutral says:

    The ratio changes are not as much as this Turkish-Greek one, but the change of whites vs blacks in the world in the last 100 years is much more significant.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  2. You’ve outlined some interesting demographic trends. Now, you need to explain, exactly how “population is power”. Turkey doesn’t look powerful to me.

    PS: I didn’t realise Armenians were living in Sochi region 100 years ago.

    • Replies: @Serrice
  3. Serrice says: • Website

    The demography of the past century has been an utter horror for humanity as a whole. Especially my country, Ireland, I would add.

    So many potential wondrous futures for nations dashed. Russia by bolshevism, Ireland by the British (and incompetent catholic/ruralite ideologues), Greece by Turkey (and itself), the end of white colonies in Africa, etc. The list goes on nigh endlessly.

    I wonder what could have been.

  4. Serrice says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Comparatively would Turkey be as important or powerful now if it had only doubled its population ala Greece as opposed to quintupled?

    Human capital is the only resource that matters, and this is exponentially so the higher the average IQ of a country.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  5. As a Hellenophile I find this deeply depressing. Churchill’s instincts were right. The West should have co-operated and taken back all that part of Europe which was then (and is still today) occupied by Turkey. The West has screwed the Greeks over. Constantinople should once again be Greek. And Cyprus as well.

    In antiquity, what is today the western Turkish coast was known as Ionia, home to many of Greece’s greatest thinkers.

    I am looking at a map drawn by the Greek, Hecataeus, in 517 BCE. Idealized but acceptably accurate, the map shows the Mediterranean Sea surrounded by Europe and Ethiopia. Those are, in turn, encircled by a perfectly circular (the idealized part) Ocean . The very center point (I used a center finder to locate it) of the “Outer limits of the earth’s disk” falls directly on the Hellespont, today’s Bosporus, where the Black Sea and the Mediterranean join. This isn’t an accident. Classical Greeks acknowledged that the Black Sea was their ancestral homeland and evidence presented in The Horse, The Wheel and Language bears this out. As a maritime nation, it’s natural that the Greeks would have placed the center of their world between the two bodies of water which figured so prominently in their history.

    Today, Turkey controls the western side of that strait. The greatest church of Medieval Christendom, the Hagia Sophia, is now an Islamic Mosque.

    We have the power to cause the Turks to pick up and move. We have the bomb. Why are we so timid? Any other people would have used such leverage to force alien trespassers to decamp. No muzzies on European soil. We’re too nice and too cowardly.

  6. @ThreeCranes

    Yes the other side of Eurasia has a similar story India during the Mauryan Empire had twice the population of China.Then the Muslim’s showed up here too.

    Pakistan,Afghanistan,Bangladesh were all Hindu/Buddhist lands. Sanskrit Grammar was codified in Afghanistan by Panini,Vedas were composed in what is today Pakistan.Heck the name India itself literally means lands of the Indus. But all these lands have been rendered intellectually barren and lost for good to a certain Arabian mental illness.

    Still the situation is not as bad in India as Greece. India will once again become the world’s most populous country within 10 years and has a reasonable chance of being a tier 1 state this century.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Ali Choudhury
  7. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @ThreeCranes

    What are the genetics of the contemporary Turkish population? Are they basically the same people as the Anatolian population of the Byzantine Empire? The borders of the Ottoman and Byzantine Empires were basically identical.

    Turkish identity and nationalism were basically manufactured by Kemal Ataturk following the fall of the Ottoman dynasty. The original Turks exerted elite dominance but did not make much of a demographic impact. During the Ottoman Empire, you had the millet system with different groups keeping their own languages, religions, and communities. Islam was privileged and there were incentives to conversion. The Turkish language was also privileged and used for dealing with the government and authorities, but it wasn’t part of a national identity like it is now.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  8. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Serrice

    Ireland was independent for most of the 20th century. And its birthrate was high when it was very religious. I’m not sure what exactly you’re blaming the British and Catholics for.

    Lots of Irish still seem to go abroad for work. High birthrates in Ireland would probably not have a huge effect in Ireland itself, but result in lots of Irish immigrants to the UK, North America, and Australia.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  9. Yevardian says:

    Uh, the Kurdish contingent was definitely larger than 10%.

    And yeah braindrain is a huge problem. The only intelligent people who stay in Yerevan are from military families, political hopefuls looking forward to make the big-bux off corruption, or the NEETs.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  10. Yevardian says:
    @Anonymous

    As someone from an ethnicity that can legitimately ‘cry victim’, I find the constant Irish whining about their past very tiresome. Your people are millions strong all over the world, and it’s your own damn fault you don’t speak Gaelic anymore. Somehow the Welsh held on to their language whilst under much more direct English rule for centuries longer.

    • Replies: @songbird
  11. Yevardian says:
    @Anonymous

    Well just look at Turks-proper compared to Kazakhs or Turkmen. Azeris look very Iranian too, in fact they often have more ‘classically Persian’ features than people from Shiraz or Qom.

    There is an unknown, but very large number of Turks with recent crypto-Armenian ancestry 2-3 generations back, but that it being forgotten at this point. Perhaps it wouldn’t be such a big deal if Islamic culture wasn’t so utterly awful, with the partial exception of Shiites.

  12. Yee says:

    “There may have been as many as 10 million Greeks in the Mediterranean in the 4th century BC…. and constituted 5% of the world population (today slightly more than 0.1% of the world population).”

    Probably means there weren’t 10 million Greeks back then… Did they have large enough land to produce food for 10 million people? All food comes from soil.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  13. This is the kind of article I find most depressing. Modernity has delivered comfort and comfortable decay and death. But what might have been, what future might have been achieved, if all the energies of the West and Russia had not been turned to fratricide?

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Anon
  14. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yevardian

    Erdogan is also said to have Georgian or Greek roots.

    I think Kemalism was a factor too. Ataturk imposed a secular national identity to unify the various groups of the rump of the Ottoman Empire in Anatolia.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  15. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yee

    They had colonies around the Mediterranean and the Black Sea and imported food into Greece. Once the Romans took over though, the food got directed into Italy. Greece doesn’t have much land and is very mountainous.

  16. Jason Liu says:

    Turkey is one of few countries in modern history that has successfully reversed diversity and homogenized its population. If Alt-Righters were smart they’d be studying how the Turks did it, not dismissing them as smelly brown Muslims.

  17. Brilliant post.

    Some people point out how hard the Jews have if it, given their supposed demographic collapse from antiquity. I always said: “what about the Greeks?”

    In most cases, population growth means a rising absolute number in the smart fraction. People not in the smart fraction might in cases still be a net boon for reasons of additional taxes or manpower. Still, it matters who is born. Brazil has 200 million but is really not so powerful on the global stage. Probably Sweden and certainly South Korea have more power.

    Turkey has 80 million but the marginal growth is amongst Islamists and low IQ Syrians and Kurds. Syrian IQ is so low one wonders if this sort of growth isn’t a curse!

  18. Yevardian says:
    @Anonymous

    Ergogan’s backround is Laz (Georgian apostates), though they have been Muslims for a long time.

  19. Yevardian says:
    @Jason Liu

    Turkey only managed to accomplish that task precisely because unlike the rest of the Islamic world, they aren’t brown, at least not predominantly. And a violent push towards homogenisation is hardly unique to Turkey in the 1st half of the 20th century.

    Culturally speaking, the world is sill steadily becoming more homogeneous than ever, Akarlin himself being a good example of this.

  20. Kinez says:

    This shift in the demographic balance of Turkey / Greece / Armenia is familiar to people interested in post-Ottoman history. It’s sad, but there’s no use in crying about it now. The question is what is to be done?

    It seems pretty clear that modernity reduces birth rates (after initially leading to a temporary population boom thanks to improved sanitation, nutrition and healthcare). The only country that bucks this trend is Israel, with a TFR that has risen to around 3 children per (Jewish) woman. This is commonly attributed to the Haredim, among whom 5-10 children is not uncommon. However, secular Israeli Jews (including Soviet immigrants) also have high birth rates, despite material factors such as the high cost of housing (or so I hear). The education of women also doesn’t appear to be a problem there (a common explanation of low fertility). Finding out how this happened should be a priority:

    https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/

    It seems that cultural factors are important in this, as in many other areas. There is a tendency to explain societal developments in purely material terms, to the exclusion of all else. I think this is motivated to a large extent by the fact that material ’causes’ of various phenomena can be easily quantified and pretty graphs can be drawn, whereas cultural factors are difficult to pin down. It’s comforting to think the world can be wholly defined and precisely measured in an objective way. That on its own doesn’t mean the impact of cultural factors is non-existent or purely subjective. Often these correlations are merely descriptive, without much explanatory power. Finding a correlation between a prior state and latter state doesn’t imply cause-and-effect, much less identify the mechanism at work.

    The depths of the demographic crisis in the Balkans and Europe was brought home to me recently when I visited a place that seemed to be overflowing with young people in general and children in particular. The impression I had was of a place in the midst of a huge population expansion. When I looked up the statistics, the local TFR was ~2.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anon
  21. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @neutral

    At their prime time, say 19th century, European countries were among the most populous in the world. Russia had a similar population to China and India.

  22. Anon[269] • Disclaimer says:
    @Vishnugupta

    You’re retarded if you think any lands are lost ‘for good’

    Do not ever call yourself the son of an Aryan again should you wish to harbor such cowardly & depraved thoughts.

    Wherever the light of the Sun God reaches, those lands belong to the Aryas

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    , @iffen
    , @Anonymous
  23. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kinez

    The Jews know what they need to do for themselves. It’s not like them to ever lose.

  24. Anon[269] • Disclaimer says:
    @Spengler's Toothpick

    http://blogs.worldbank.org/health/female-education-and-childbearing-closer-look-data

    It’s actually not complicated. None of the shemales on here actually have the testosterone to say it outright rather than hope for artificial wombs because women hate nerds

  25. Anon[269] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kinez

    Female education is a problem.

    Israel’s average age of first birth is close to 30 now or has surpassed it.

    Next.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @notanon
  26. @Anon

    You have any practical solution to regain these land other than typing tough from your basement?

    Let me guess ‘peaceful nuclear explosions’ over population centers and neutron bombs/ chemical weapons over historic sites…

  27. @Jason Liu

    Europe already had its homogenisation when Germans were pushed out of every non-German European country at the end of WW2. That was partially responsible for the long European peace as Germany’s impetus to create Magna Germania out of Eastern and Central Europe was abolished.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–50)

    Unlikely to be replicable as it ultimately took ten combined years of vicious land warfare to harden attitudes sufficiently such that expulsions went off without a murmur.

    • Replies: @byrresheim
  28. @Vishnugupta

    The losses that occurred were in large part due to the supreme unattractiveness of Hinduism for those unfortunate to be born in the wrong sort of caste.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  29. @Serrice

    I am not sure why you are so downbeat. The Irish diaspora is huge. Now that Ireland itself is a prospering country it may well see a substantial rise in population, it has already grown by 40% since 1990. It is very scarcely peopled given the size of the landmass and temperate climate.

    • Replies: @songbird
  30. @Jason Liu

    Turkey has not reversed diversity. It may have extirpated its Greek and Armenian Populations, but even the CIA estimate that Kurds represent nearly 20% of the Turkish Population. Other estimates are as high as 25%. Turkish fertility rates in Western Turkey are below replacement rates and interior Turks are not much better, whereas rural Kurds have very high fertility rates. Twenty years from now, Kurds will probably constitute well over 33% of the total population.
    The future looks grim.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey

  31. @ThreeCranes

    Hagia Sophia has been a museum for the past eighty years or so. I would have thought a Hellenophile would have visited it. Constantinople would have probably remained in Christian hands had the Greek Orthodox church accepted the supremacy of the Church of Rome and been able to call on Western aid. It might have been conquered by Russia in the late nineteenth century if Britain had not made a concerted effort to keep them away from control of the sea of Marnara. Now who would conquer it? The broke Greeks? The post-Christian West?

    Anyway, interesting to note the centres of the anti-Erdogan vote are areas where there was a heavy Greek presence pre-Ww1.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  32. @Ali Choudhury

    The low caste converts didn’t fare well as Arzal Muslims even under a supposedly egalitarian religion.

    To this very day Arzal Muslim’s are treated by their Coreligioists as sub humans in S Asia and unlike Hindu low castes have no affirmative action programs to fall back on.

    In any case Islam has permanently blighted S Asia like every region it set foot on.

    Partition of India was a unqualified blessing for Hinduism as Muslim’s are on course to be a majority in S Asia within a generation.

    Now post at least semi industrialization and transition away from oil and gas within the next 20 years we will mass deport many Muslim’s to Bangladesh and Pakistan.

    Wait and watch..this will be in sync with Western Europe and maybe Russia also sorting out their Muslim demographic problems in a similar direct fashion once the ummah no longer has the oil supply threat to dangle.

    Hinduism is immortal..We have survived more or less intact from a period before there were pharohs in Egypt and will certainly not meekly sit around and let you play your outbreed the infidel game..just wait and watch..

  33. The disastrous effects of WWI on Western Civilisation can be most clearly seen when you look at what happened to the Greeks and Armenians. And it’s still continuing. America’s war on Iraq has drastically reduced the Iraqi Christian population. Its actions would have resulted in the end of Syrian Christians, had they not been prevented by Russia.

  34. Turkey is in fact quite fragmented, and the cracks will make Turkey explode in coming years, as the debt-fuelled prosperity of recent years, collapses

    Turkey is not only close to one-quarter Kurd (a group with a Persian-related language, tho Sunni in religion), but also one-quarter or more Alevi (a Shia-tied religious group) … in other words half of Turkey or more is chafing under a feeling of oppression

    The very-fertile ethnic Kurds as noted above, are not far from becoming dangerously preponderant in Turkey’s rank-and-file military … the Turkish Kurds continue to dream of uniting with their contiguous brethren in Iran, Iraq, and Syria, a nation which will be tens of millions strong

    And as the Shia become more successful and assertive in the world, the Turkish Alevis will have their day in the sun, despite Erdogan’s sometimes sneering remarks about them

  35. Pericles says:
    @Serrice

    The demography of the past century has been an utter horror for humanity as a whole. Especially my country, Ireland, I would add.

    Oh, for Ireland it looks more like the horror is just getting started.

  36. Pericles says:
    @ThreeCranes

    Yeah, add Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo to that.

    The greatest problem is … America is on the muslim side.

  37. @Anon

    I doubt the linkage between female education and declining fertility is controversial around here. Or do you mean the solution would not be complicated to implement? Good luck getting any developed country to embrace female un-education!

  38. Yee says:

    Anonymous[276] ,

    “imported food into Greece.”

    Productivity was very low in ancient times. The Greeks might have needed 90 million in the Mediterranean colonies to produce enough to feed the 10 million. Pre-industry era usually has less than 10% city population who don’t grow food.

    And that means Mediterranean area supported roughly 5 times the population of China with 1/4 of the land.

    Very hard to believe.

  39. Bliss says:
    @Yevardian

    Azeris look very Iranian too, in fact they often have more ‘classically Persian’ features than people from Shiraz or Qom.

    The original homeland of the Persians was in the Deep South of Iran, a long ways south of Azerbaijan and Armenia. The “classically Persian” look is represented in the colorful mosaics of the Persian Immortals:

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    , @Anonymous
  40. Anonymous[341] • Disclaimer says:
    @Serrice

    The point is that this present century – the 21st – will, undoubtedly, display infinitely *worse* demographic trends than anything the 20th, or indeed any other century in recorded or prerecorded history has thrown up.

    One random example, London, England, will very certainly be 95% plus black/brown by mid to late century. And no, the white English haven’t deserted London for pastures new. They have simply vanished in face of the onslaught.

    And ‘The Economist’ smiles and breaks wind loudly in triumph.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    , @notanon
    , @Anonymous
  41. Anonymous[341] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jason Liu

    Well said.

  42. Yevardian says:
    @Bliss

    “we wuz achaemenids n sheeeeeit”

  43. Anonymous[341] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bliss

    The ‘original home’ of the Iranians was in central Asia, by way of Europe.

    And they were ‘proper’ white people.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Bliss
  44. @Ali Choudhury

    Constantinople would have probably remained in Christian hands had the Greek Orthodox church accepted the supremacy of the Church of Rome and been able to call on Western aid.

    Bullshit, historically speaking. You made two errors:

    a) The Greek Orthodox church did accept the supremacy of the Church of Rome. (Look up ‘Council of Florence’.)

    b) Them accepting Roman supremacy is precisely the reason why they failed to expel the Turks.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  45. @Serrice

    Is Turkey important and powerful now? IMO, for all of Erdogan’s posturing, it’s not powerful, and Turkey’s importance is largely derived from its geographical location. So yes, having half the current population wouldn’t have changed much for Turkey.

    Also, consider the fact that Kurds comprise around 20% of Turkey population and outbreeding Turks.

    • Replies: @Spisarevski
    , @Anonymous
  46. As I noted before, I can’t think of any other major region where the strategic population balance changed so drastically during the course of the past century.

    Well, without too much effort I can think of one where the change in balance is even more pronounced, with at least equal geopolitical significance – Palestine:

  47. As I noted before, I can’t think of any other major region where the strategic population balance changed so drastically during the course of the past century.

    Well, without too much effort I can think of one (albeit geographically much smaller) where the change in balance is at least as pronounced, and with at least equal geopolitical significance – Palestine:

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  48. Yevardian says:
    @for-the-record

    What happened between 1950 and 1970? Weird because Sephardi/Mizrachim immigration was quickly tapped by mass expulsions from 1948 onward. Did immigration from Eastern Europe really make such a difference? Or is this when the Haredim began getting in gear? Or was the Arab birthrate falling due to the secularisation of this period?

  49. DFH says:
    @Anonymous

    You thinking they were white is about 1/4 as dumb as him thinking they were blacks (which is still very dumb)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  50. @Vishnugupta

    Yes, the treatment of arzal Muslims is pretty disgusting. Pakistani society is one where the poor are ruthlessly exploited and whipped by the upper classes, an unfortunate legacy of the long exposure to Hinduism. That was retained while the positive Hindu influences such as the preference for Sufism has been lost with disastrous consequences. At least conditions for lower class Muslims have improved substantially in Bangladesh, the true heir of Jinnah’s legacy. Only 9% of the population is below the extreme poverty line compared to 82% in 1972.

    It would be nice if the Indian government and BJP could say they have no intention of absorbing Pakistan. That might inhibit the power of the kleptocratic generals and their idiotic attempts to wage jihadist war on India. The country is likely headed to ruin in any case.

  51. @Ali Choudhury

    Jinnah is an unnecessarily deified individual who from the S Asian Muslim POV scored the own goal of the millennium an undivided India would be a Muslim India by the middle of this century possibly earlier.The British Indian army was 50% Muslim 25% Sikh and only 25% Hindu in 1947…

    He wasn’t much of a Muslim either claret drinking pork eating marrying a non people of the book Zoroastrian etc.

    In any case he has ensured Hindu India for the foreseeable future..May his soul RIP.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Ali Choudhury
  52. @anonymous coward

    Did the Council of Florence make much difference? I thought the attempt at resolving the Great Schism didn’t come to anything in the end and the anti-unionist Orthodox won out.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  53. @Yevardian

    Stats: 9.3% in 1935, 7.9% in 1945, and 7.4% in 1965.

    Average TFR before 1965 was above 6 children per woman, and it is logical that the Turkish natural population growth rate was greater than the Kurdish one, due to being more developed and ahead in the demographic transition. So I think the 10% in the 1910s estimate (within the borders of modern Turkey!! not the Ottoman Empire as a whole) is plausible. Perhaps it was slightly higher – say, 12% – but not cardinally so.

    Most current estimates of %Kurds seem to be around 15%-20%. This increase (doubling since 1965 in relative terms) is a function of the Kurdish demographic transition taking place later than the Turkish one.

  54. @Felix Keverich

    Are you comparing it with Russia or something? Or maybe the US?

    Yes, Turkey is very powerful compared to its neighbours, and several times more powerful compared to an alternative universe Turkey where the population stagnated instead of increasing sixfold.

    A repeat of the First Balkan War with the same countries will go very differently today.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  55. DFH says:
    @Vishnugupta

    May his soul RIP

    Is that how Hinduism works?

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  56. Anonymous[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @Felix Keverich

    It’s interesting to compare economic growth and development in Turkey vis-à-vis Italy in the past 20 years.

    The hidebound shitheads and fuckwits which run the EU have consigned the poor old Italians to 20 plus years of economic stagnation. *Certainly* the *worst* economic record in recorded history. Never mind the USSR, Cuba or Venezuela.

    Meanwhile, Italy’s Mediterranean competitor, Turkey, which has moved into the same sort of industries the Italians used to do, which has the Lira, which has an erratic, inflation prone economy, also like the Italians used to have, has only gone from the strength to strength.

    God Damn the EU and God Bless Brexit!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  57. Anonymous[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    Bollocks.

    Just research the ‘Sintashta genomes’.

  58. Anonymous[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Don’t worry.

    The Economist magazine and the Labour Party will ensure that they all come to Britain .

  59. Bliss says:
    @Anonymous

    The ‘original home’ of the Iranians was in central Asia, by way of Europe. And they were ‘proper’ white people.

    Lol.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_Province


    Pars Province also known as Fars (Persian: فارس‎, Fārs) or Persia in the Greek sources in historical context, is one of the thirty-one provinces of Iran and known as the cultural capital of the country. It is in the south of the country……The etymology of the word Persian (From Latin Persia, from Ancient Greek Περσίς, Persís), found in many ancient names associated with Iran, is derived from the historical importance of this region. Fars Province is the original homeland of the Persian people.

    The ancient Persians were present in the region from about the 10th century BC, and became the rulers of the largest empire the world had yet seen under the Achaemenid dynasty which was established in the mid 6th century BC, at its peak stretching from Thrace-Macedonia, Bulgaria-Paeonia and Eastern Europe proper in the west, to the Indus Valley in its far east. The ruins of Persepolis and Pasargadae, two of the four capitals of the Achaemenid Empire, are located in Fars.

  60. @DFH

    No it doesn’t but that is how followers of abrahamic faiths fondly remember people who are no longer alive.

    Jinnah while no one’s idea of a practicing Muslin was even less anything close to being Hindu.

    FYI the ultimate aim of the soul in Hinduism is to escape the cycle of birth and death and rebirth and attain Moksha I.e become one with the background primordial energy of creation which we experience a tiny facet of while alive.

    Our idea of an afterlife post the cycle of death and rebirth is neither a porno movie with 72 virgins nor a boring life in heaven singing praises to a god but for the soul to rejoin the very fabric that underpins reality which lies beyond what can be perceived in human form.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @DFH
    , @Ali Choudhury
  61. Anonymous[378] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Worst in history? Not even worst in the EU, which would be Greece.

    https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/[email protected]/ITA/RUS/VEN

  62. Talha says:
    @Vishnugupta

    A few days ago…
    “A chest thumping right wing Hindu nationalist I certainly am not.”

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/sinotriumph-101/#comment-2514978

    Followed by…
    “within the next 20 years we will mass deport many Muslim’s to Bangladesh and Pakistan. Wait and watch..”

    Uhhhhhh…’K. Yeah, it’s like you’re channeling Ghandi-Ji or something…

    Peace.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  63. Esn says:

    So… has anyone seen this video of “the history of Europe, every year” which also includes population numbers:

    Frankly, although I’m not sure how comprehensive and reliable the population numbers are in the video’s earliest years (especially for various tribes without geographical borders), I was really shocked by what a huge percentage of the European population used to live in France until fairly recently, and how its percentage of the total has significantly declined from its peak. It really goes some way to explaining why France was such a cultural and economic power for so long.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @notanon
  64. iffen says:
    @Vishnugupta

    I thought you said you were not a Hindutva?

  65. iffen says:
    @Vishnugupta

    but for the soul to rejoin the very fabric that underpins reality which lies beyond what can be perceived in human form.

    Hear this AaronB. Here’s your ticket.

  66. LondonBob says:
    @Esn

    France’s population stagnation from 1800 hasn’t been fully explained. Maybe Napoleon, many wars and political instability. France even had high immigration during the period. Shame as a higher population might have led to a greater balance in Europe and thus no world wars.

  67. iffen says:
    @Anon

    Wherever the light of the Sun God reaches, those lands belong to the Aryas

    There’s not enough room on the dark side of the moon for all these non-Aryans.

  68. DFH says:
    @Vishnugupta

    or the soul to rejoin the very fabric that underpins reality

    that’s what heaven is for Christians to

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  69. @Spisarevski

    A repeat of the First Balkan War with the same countries will go very differently today.

    Turkey was badly wounded in its wars with Russia, which made independence of Balkan countries possible in the first place. If it wasn’t for Russia you would still be living under Turkish yoke until the end of WW1 at least.

    • Replies: @Spisarevski
  70. @Talha

    You see contradiction where there are none.

    I am not a chest thumping Hindutva type in the sense I do not believe Hindu India has always been the greatest civilization at all times all civilizations wax and wane and Hindu India is no exception.I also have a realistic assessment of Indian IQ than the rank and file Hindutva type.

    However I am a proud Hindu Brahmin and have less than a charitable view on Islam given the death and destruction inflicted on my homeland in its name.I will also resist in whatever capacity possible any attempts to convert India into an Islamic land.

    I also believe that Muslim’s by and large are untrustworthy as citizens (as opposed to individual friends) of any non Muslim state which is why I wholeheartedly support mass deportation of them from Eastern India and other parts of India.This view is also shared by Europeans and other non Muslim countries but temporarily our hands are tied due to the dependence on imported oil. Once this dependence no longer exists I believe the whole bunch of you or atleast large numbers of you will be kicked out.

    Muslim’s are as a collective unwelcome parasites in any non Muslim lands in their own lands they routinely humiliate non Muslim’s abduct their women forcefully convert non muslin and have blasphemy laws but in non Muslim countries you want the right to proliferate preach marry and convert non Muslim women and set up independent shariah COURTS.

    The world is tolerating this BS because it is dependent on oil not because primitive low IQ intellect hating muslims have outsmarted us. In the near future when the world is no longer dependent on oil and has gas from virtually unlimited non conventional sources like methane hydrates you will experience our collective wraths.

    Till then there is nothing more for us to do but be somewhat civil and focus on developing our economy and bide our time which is basically what we have been doing..

  71. Hi Anatoly,

    Firstly, the 1914 census that you cite was AFTER the Balkan Wars. It underestimates the Muslim/Turkish population living in the Balkan territories (by more than a million).

    Secondly, you forgot that ~1.5 million Greeks and ~500k Turks were forcibly sent from one country to the other, and vice versa, as a consequence of the Lausanne Convention of 1923. This is the MAIN reason for the geographic/demographic changes that you see for the GREEK population which was living in Turkey as shown on the map above.

    Thirdly, the Armenians were outnumbered 15:1 to 17:1 by the Muslim population before the start of the major wars of 1914-1923, ending with the Turkish War of Independence. The map above shows a minority presence of Armenians in Anatolia (but how many percent, it does not say). As only ~1 million Armenians total were living in all of Turkey at the start of WWI in 1914, there could not have been a “genocide of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915″. The Republic of Armenia was formed in the aftermath of WWI, and major waves of Armenian migrants began to leave Turkey for Europe and the United States. However, most of them remained, and went East to Russia, with 1.6 million Armenians counted in the first Soviet census of 1926. Their capital, Yerevan, was originally a small town of ~50k at the creation of the Armenian Republic. The population had ~67k residents counted at the year of the Soviet census in 1926, and then it somehow increased to 1 million residents by 1979. The Armenian birth rate is not that high. It is obvious that 950k Armenians did not get birthed over two generations, after 1.5 million of them were genocided.

    Armenians were a minority in Anatolia at the start of the 20th century and they rebelled against the majority Turks. It is no wonder they are bitter today and want more land — the West betrayed them, and they lost what they had. They had to go East to Russia, and start all over.

    Wiki does not have it, but I found the Ottoman Empire census of 1881/82-93 for you through Sci-Hub:

    17,388,562 TOTAL POPULATION
    ————–
    12,587,137 Muslims
    2,332,191 Greeks
    1,001,465 Armenians
    817,735 Bulgarians
    235,983 Foreigners
    184,106 Jews
    149,786 Catholics
    36,268 Protestants
    ~22,500 Monophysites
    ~18,000 Latins
    ~3,000 Non-Muslim Gypsies

    Karpat, K. H. (1978). Ottoman Population Records and the Census of 1881/82–1893. International Journal of Middle East Studies, 9(02), 237–274. doi:10.1017/s0020743800000088

    Reddit and Wikipedia are poor choices for historical/demographic facts. Who knows what they will write about Syria in the coming decade.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Tulip
    , @Talha
  72. Pericles says:
    @Anon

    I’ve also gotten the impression that TFR is reduced by ubiquitous TV with telenovelas showing high-status women avoiding childbearing.

    (I think a commenter from Brazil mentioned this effect around here.)

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  73. iffen says:
    @RealBalkan

    there could not have been a “genocide of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915″.

    Maybe they are down on the farm with the Jews.

    • Replies: @RealBalkan
  74. @Vishnugupta

    I don’t believe that is correct. The leadership elite of major oil-producing Muslim states don’t particularly care about the fate of Muslims elsewhere. They need the rest of the world, particularly the industrialised non-Muslims, buying their energy resources far more than they need the approval of co-religionists. There is nothing to stop mass deportations now if the impetus existed. No one has threatened to stop fuel sales to Myanmar and Aramco will keep on building its refinery in Maharashtra even if the Bangladeshi illegal immigrants in Assam are deported en masse.

    • Agree: Talha
  75. Pericles says:
    @Anonymous

    The 20th was a historically bad century too. It started out okay yet now the world has less than 1bn Whites and more than 6bn Others. A blowout, in sports terms.

  76. @Vishnugupta

    I can’t think of any Muslim prayer sermon I have heard where the benefits of enjoying 72 virgins has been given as a reason for being a good Muslim. The emphasis is pretty much always on how terrible the fires of hell are for those who do wrong.

    • Replies: @Talha
  77. DFH says:

    In terms of relative population growth, British are by far the most succesful European people (over the last 500 years) followed by Russians.

  78. @Ali Choudhury

    I thought the attempt at resolving the Great Schism didn’t come to anything

    It destroyed what was left of Byzantine morale when morale was needed most, and alienated the people who conceivably could have helped Byzantium.

    It’s the reason nobody trust Bartholomew even today. (See the previous article.)

  79. @Vishnugupta

    Jinnah was probably the most remarkable Muslim of the 20th century. A thorough constitutionalist who believed strongly in secular government and rule by law, who created a new nation state by force of personality. If he had lived an additional 20 years, South Asia would have been much better off. Pakistan has had one idiot after another since with the current prime minister being a moronic cricketer trying to crowd-fund a dam that the country cannot afford, does not need and would be sited in an earthquake-prone zone. Compared to what we have had, someone who liked whiskey and ham sandwiches and had a non-Muslim teenage wife with a penchant for revealing saris were very minor flaws.

    The only person I know who has expressed the same opinion on how Pakistan was an own-goal for India’s Muslims is my father who reckons Hindus were thoroughly cowed by a thousand years of conquest and would have stayed under the Muslim thumb in an undivided sub-continent. That is a complete pipe-dream. Hindus were in thorough control of the professions, bureaucracy, academia and commercial classes. They were going to be in complete control. Pakistan was a necessity for freedom from eternal Hindu domination.

    • Replies: @Talha
  80. Talha says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Ok, but expulsions of Muslims from India is THE Hindu-nationalist wet-dream. Look, this is an anonymous Russian nationalist forum, just own it. Nobody’s going to get you fired from work or something. Greasy William was a rabid Zionist and did just fine here and I got along well with him. People here are self-declared racists – most of us don’t care as long as you are up front about it.

    Your position is like me saying:
    “Hey guys, now I’m no ISIS-supporting Muslim extremist.”

    But the next time some idiot Salafi-extremist shoots up a Coptic church, I say:
    “Just wait, we’ll clean Egypt from the Coptic minority in 30 years. Oh, but I actually don’t believe Muslims are the smartest people on the planet, so I’m obviously not a Muslim extremist.”

    Which would be a joke position to take.

    Just don’t be two-faced and disingenuous about it. As far as your other comments, you are – just like many European nationalists – bipolar in your approach. Instead of providing a reverse-dhimmi style milieu where Muslims cannot threaten the political position of your community by making them a kind of second class citizen where they cannot go near your women, you would rather clean the whole place of them…while complaining about how Islam treats minorities – completely oblivious to the fact that it is more accommodating than you are willing to be.

    But hey, you do your thing – I don’t expect much from non-Muslims that don’t have a sacred law to follow. You have the supermajority in India – show the world what Hindus are all about. Maybe afterwards you can tear down the Taj Mahal and build a car (or idol) manufacturing plant in its spot.

    Peace.

  81. @Felix Keverich

    That’s true but not really related to what I said.

    The First Balkan war was 34 years after the last Russo-Turkish war. The turks had problems, their empire was in an overall state of decay and they were not well organized, but still, the fact is that their army was also numerically smaller than the combined armies of Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece.

    Today, they would roughly have a 3:1 numerical advantage over those same countries’ combined armies.

  82. @iffen

    Well, the analogy to Anatoly’s argument here would be to show a map of Jews in pre-1939 Poland and then compare it to a map of Jews in Poland in year 2000, neglecting all of the major Jewish migrations that occurred during the WWII years, and then point the finger on Polish reproduction rates and “the genocide of 6 million”. And of course, something about the German genocide in Western Poland.

  83. Talha says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Agreed / I cannot think of a single Friday khutbah (sermon) where the houris were mentioned – ever. I’m sure some places mention them somewhere, but no place I’ve been. Dang, they still talk about hell fire around your masjid? Hardcore man. I haven’t heard a good fire and brimstone khutbah for a while.

    Wa Salaam.

    • Replies: @iffen
  84. Talha says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Not sure partition was the best idea – I think the jury is still out on it. Despite appearances, VGupta is not representative of all Hindus – most Hindus I have come across and had conversations with are nowhere near as hostile and fairly friendly, seeing Muslims as part of India. Maybe they were all doing taqiyyah…

    One of my hadith studies teachers (originally from India) put this out on his Twitter feed:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1050702488268144643

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  85. Christo says:

    Could say “who remembers the Armenians?” To fall for that piece of anti-Hitler propaganda, which in that respect was probably fairly close to the truth.

    Armenians had the misfortune to be located where alot of Empires and religions marched back and forth, and being at the far end of the ‘Anatolian” plain( IIRC the correct word) in the area of mountains of that area.Looks like they didn’t have much in the way of arable land, and then much of that was confiscated and of destroyed by the Turks. Many immigrated and more than a few are still gypsies and despised by most for justifiable reasons even now. Can’t connect their outcome with the Greeks in any way. Not sure why the author was grouping Greeks and Armenians together

    • Replies: @Spisarevski
  86. @Ali Choudhury

    The long European peace is rather due to the fact that the British went broke after the pyrrhic victory over Germany cost them the possibility to suck India dry.

    Hence no funds for violent British meddling on the continent, hence peace.

    • Replies: @notanon
  87. Tulip says:
    @RealBalkan

    No doubt in our next episode of the “American Pravda” series, Ron Unz will explain why the world’s most nefarious financial elites made up the Armenian genocide in order to grease the wheels for the Holocaust propaganda, and hopefully, we will get a tie-in with the truth about space aliens with their anal probes and why the U.S. government is suppressing the truth about their existence.

    • Troll: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Pericles
  88. Talha says:
    @RealBalkan

    Thanks for the input – much appreciated.

    So is this a complete census of the entire empire including places like Jordan, etc. Do you know if these numbers account for the Circassians that were pushed out of Russia roughly around the same time? I know they were not just dispersed in Anatolia but elsewhere as well.

    Peace.

  89. @Yevardian

    There is an unknown, but very large number of Turks with recent crypto-Armenian ancestry 2-3 generations back, but that it being forgotten at this point.

    But does the Turkish state forget it? iirc there was quite a bit of uproar in recent years, because it emerged that the Turkish state, ever since the founding of the republic in the early 1920s, has maintained meticulous records about the descent of its citizens and coded people as “crypto-Armenians” etc.

  90. @Christo

    despised by most for justifiable reasons even now

    By whom? Genuine question.
    They are the most well liked minority in Bulgaria. Even hardcore neo-nazis wouldn’t say anything bad about Armenians.
    They are like mirror universe jews who are loyal to the countries they reside in, and have a positive influence.

    I think Anatoly and other Russian nationalists don’t like them very much, but my impression of those in Russia is that they are loyal to Russia too.

    There are other reasons I am positively biased towards them (shared history of suffering under the Ottomans, same faith, their national hero Andranik fought as a volunteer in the Bulgarian army in the first Balkan War) but still, they are a model minority if there ever was one.

  91. @DFH

    There is no such thing as ‘Heaven’ in Christianity.

    The Gospels preach the Kingdom of God, not ‘Heaven’. The Kingdom of God is what comes after this universe ends. It will be physical, people will exist there in the flesh. (No disembodied ‘spirits’ or ‘souls’ in Christianity.)

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @DFH
    , @Bliss
  92. @Talha

    As far as your other comments, you are – just like many European nationalists – bipolar in your approach. Instead of providing a reverse-dhimmi style milieu where Muslims cannot threaten the political position of your community by making them a kind of second class citizen where they cannot go near your women, you would rather clean the whole place of them…

    While I think it is foolish to expect a fox not to act like a fox, as regards the situation in Europe a dhimmi policy is simply begging for trouble along the line.:

    1. Saracens tend to outbreed Europeans. Unless the government imposes an ethnic one or two child policy the Saracens will eventually acquire make their European overlords’ position untenable, incidentally also the topic of this article. Which leads to…

    2. Either we have an eternal fifth column or we eventually lose a war or get sanction-and-bombed into allowing another Bosnia or Kosovo or forced into adopting a version of the Minorities Treaties.

    And that is not to even mention the police state that will be needed to crack down on jihadism, which is better than doing nothing, but also brings much more trouble than simply repatriating the foreigners.

    • Replies: @Talha
  93. songbird says:
    @Yevardian

    Your people are millions strong all over the world,

    Could be said even more appropriately of the the Jews, especially when you count the estimate of the founding group and the timeline.

    Today, a sense of national victimhood may be necessary for national preservation. One can have it without animus. BTW, an overwrought example of victimhood would probably not be the Irish but the Chinese, IMO, WW2 aside. That is to say of serious people. American blacks, of course, obviously take the cake in a general competition.

    You are under a misimpression about Gaelic. It was was pretty widely spoken in the West at least until about 1900 or so.

  94. iffen says:
    @Talha

    I haven’t heard a good fire and brimstone khutbah for a while.

    If you ever get down my way, I can put you onto the real thing.

  95. iffen says:
    @Talha

    Instead of providing a reverse-dhimmi style milieu

    Not our tradition.

    Stop trying to get us to adopt Muslim institutions.

    This is the main objection that some of us have to Muslims.

    When in Rome …

    • Replies: @Talha
  96. songbird says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    It’s possible to see black faces in country villages now. The Irish government is thoroughly pozzed, and set on bringing in more. Because Ireland is such a small country, no rational person can be under the illusion that it can absorb them.

    If Gaelic had remained the primary language, it would have provided some insulation to that, no doubt. Some may see the reconciliation to have been the foot in the door of multiculturalism. For instance, there is a movement to replace the national anthem, which evokes blood and soil and fighting with one that purely evokes geography.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  97. @Talha

    Dhimmis under Islam are usually natives, so while European nationalists around here are advocating for the expulsion of immigrant Muslims, they don’t advocate going to Muslim lands to outbreed the locals and then force them into dhimmitude. While the result of allowing Muslims to continue to live in our lands will unavoidably result in our own dhimmitude in our own lands.

    Therefore, the results of your peaceful Islam will be the subjugation of Europeans in their own lands, while if we were to have our own ways, aggressive or not, we’d leave Muslims in their own lands.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Talha
  98. DFH says:
    @anonymous coward

    Actually the gospels also refer to the βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν and τῶν οὐρανῶν = of the skies = heaven.

    If it’s physical, then how is it that God’s rule has already been established there and that Christ ascended there?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  99. songbird says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    The Tuareg have a deep class division, but no history of Hinduism. I’m not so sure that castes are a legacy of Hinduism per say and not the low trust society and high ethnic diversity that one finds in many areas, including the subcontinent.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  100. DFH says:
    @anonymous coward

    (No disembodied ‘spirits’ or ‘souls’ in Christianity)

    So what does Matthew 10:28 mean when it says ‘And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell’

  101. Dmitry says:

    Large population is clearly a necessary condition to be at least a “great power”.

    But not a sufficient condition, by any measure.

    Combined population of Pakistan and Bangladesh, is like the combined population of USA and Canada.

    Yet the Pakistan/Bangladesh have almost no power at all in the world, while North America is dominating the world.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Yevardian
  102. Talha says:
    @iffen

    That’s fine with me – if the only way some non-Muslims know how to deal with Muslims is expulsion, totally fine with me – just do it legally. Again, I don’t expect better, I’m just pointing out the virtue-signaling fail.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  103. @ThreeCranes

    Churchill’s party, the Tories, are primarily to blame for the demographic destruction of the Greeks.

    The Balkans could have been completely liberated in 1877 if the British Tories, under the leadership of the execrable Benjamin Disraeli, hadn’t come to the rescue of the Ottoman Empire.

    As for Churchill himself, if you read his 6 volume history of WW2 it is amazing how much he exerted himself trying to convince the Turk’s to enter the war on the side of the allies. He gave them surprisingly large amounts of weapons which he could ill afford to part with, and he offered them the Dodecanese Islands (Rhodes etc.) if they entered the war on the side of the allies. If they had taken him up on his offer, Rhodes probably would have eventually been ethnically cleansed just like Anatolia, European Turkey, Northern Cyprus, Tenedos and Imbros have been.

    From the moment he became Prime Minister in May 1940, Churchill’s strategy was consistent, and astonishingly evil.

    Unconditional surrender of Germany was the goal, and the preferred methods were:

    1 – Terror bomb German civilians.
    2 – Starvation blockade the European continent.
    3 – Offer the Bolsheviks and the Turks anything they want, if they agree to invade Europe from the East.
    4 – Trick the Americans into paying for it all.

  104. The Bulgarian’s were also ethnically cleansed to create living space for the Turks:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Thracian_Bulgarians_in_1913

  105. iffen says:
    @Talha

    pointing out the virtue-signaling fail.

    You know that I am a member of a low IQ sub-group so you will have to explain how the Hindutva was “virtue-signaling.” :)

  106. This is (or will be) evident in Canada very shortly.

    There are two factors – one, mass immigration from Asian countries, of a non Muslim type. These people don’t have too many babies (slightly higher than the white TFR), but are pouring in from China and India. Secondly, the Muslims have huge amounts of children. (Recently under Trudeau there have been huge numbers of Negroes coming in, but that’s another topic).

    White people are just not able to keep up with this pace. As unfortunate as that is, I see it as survival of the fittest. Let’s face it, our White Canadian ancestors would never have allowed this to happen. And yet, based on the Jewish influence, whites have gotten weaker and weaker. Mentally, spiritually and physically. Now there’s a clueless white majority, leaving white people like me in an awkward position. What can I do? I just Wait.

    And then you look at the degenerate, homosexual, pot smoking white people, and it’s ridiculous. I actually have more in common with the values of these 1st generation immigrants than with most whites. I’m not a strict moral puritan but come on.

    The social progressive era in the West will last no more than one generation – progressive whites have no children. And you already see the next generation of young white men skewing far more right wing and traditionalist.

    By 2100 Canada will be a strange place. Probably ~10% White, with right wing conservative whites being the only ones who didn’t end their genetic lines. The only question is whether or not the non-Muslim Asian replacements are good enough to take over Canada and not turn it into a shithole. Unfortunately I am not bullish, many 2nd generation immigrants suffer identity crises and fit into the ghetto black culture.

    White people in the USA, Eastern Europe, and Italy are the only white populations with large numbers who have realized that demographics are destiny, and have made some sort of motions. Everybody else is unfortunately toast (and I doubt Trump will successfully stave off the mestizo hordes at his gates).

  107. songbird says:

    The numbers of Gypsies are, as always, interesting. Quite a range given from 0.05% of the Turkish population to 5 million, with 500,000 being the official number.

  108. @Dmitry

    Sure, but keep IQ and wealth constant, demographics is extremely important. As people above have pointed out, a replay of the Balkan Wars would look very different today.

  109. @songbird

    The discrimination goes beyond simple class-based differences and has the same connotations of certain castes and ethnic groupings being unclean, inferior and not fit to enter your home or eat from the same table. Which is from the influence of Hinduism on Indo-Islam.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/357765/pakistans-caste-system-the-untouchables-struggle/

  110. @John Gruskos

    If you think his strategy was evil, you should hear about the guy he was up against.

  111. @Talha

    All the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis I know have had nothing but positive interaction with Indian Hindus. My brother in law roomed with several in a house-share while he was doing his masters in a European university and had a great time. That being said my wife’s Indian Muslim acquaintances have said discrimination in India is quite evident and especially pronounced if you known to be religious.

    • Replies: @Talha
  112. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    And no, the white English haven’t deserted London for pastures new. They have simply vanished in face of the onslaught.

    young couples with young children or wanting to start a family moved away cos of the inter-ethnic violence in the schools so the *reproductive* part of the native population moved leaving the remaining majority cut off at the roots to slowly wither away over the next 50 years.

    (and all those young couples moving away to find “good” aka safer schools pushes the housing costs up in the receiving areas leading to a lower overall birth rate)

    And ‘The Economist’ smiles….

    yes – the real “Daily Stormer”

  113. notanon says:
    @John Gruskos

    Churchill’s party… under the leadership of the execrable Benjamin Disraeli… As for Churchill himself

    so not Churchill then

  114. notanon says:
    @byrresheim

    would you have preferred to live under the Spanish empire (when they were top dog) or the French empire (when they were top dog)?

  115. @DFH

    Actually the gospels also refer to the βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν and τῶν οὐρανῶν = of the skies = heaven.

    Yes, and it’s clear that these are pagan concepts used in the Gospels as parables.

    If it’s physical, then how is it that God’s rule has already been established there and that Christ ascended there?

    See 1 Corinthians 15.

    • Replies: @DFH
  116. Talha says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    This is especially the case from any Hindus I’ve met from the South where Islam spread through the Indian Ocean network of Arab traders, Sufi-scholars from Yemen, etc. One of my co-workers is from there and is actually pretty positive on the Mughals and other rulers…of course, they never had to live under their rule, so there’s that.

    Wa salaam.

  117. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Indians are not Aryans stupid.

    Quit being so cringy!

  118. DFH says:
    @anonymous coward

    Yes, and it’s clear that these are pagan concepts used in the Gospels as parables.

    Nothing of the sort, take your lies somewhere else

    See 1 Corinthians 15.

    I think you should see that chapter as well, specifically verse 44 ‘it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body’ and verse 50 ‘ I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable’. Maybe also check out 2 Corinthians 5

    Anyway, where exactly do you think Christ physically is now then? Hiding somewhere behind Jupiter? In another galaxy?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  119. @Anon

    Very important stat. But that’s not the case for Haredi Jews in Israel, nor for Arab citizens of Israel.

    With Haredis at 12% of Israel’s population and BOOMING — projected to reach 16% just 12 years from now — it is Haredi TFR and average birth age that will make an increasing difference in the other direction:

    https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/Haredi-population-tops-one-million-521515

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/216254

    Even if Haredi TFR comes way down from 6-7 to 3.5, they’ll still become the largest single group in Israel within the lifetime of younger readers here (as non-Haredi Jews and Arabs are both growing much more slowly than the Haredis). Wonder whether that will result in a hardcore majority in favor of expelling Arabs / Muslims from Israel.

  120. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Vishnugupta

    The problem with Hinduism is that if you keep such an un fair religion, India will partition more and more.

  121. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    London will not be 95% black/brown. That is rediculous.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @Anonymous
    , @songbird
  122. notanon says:
    @Anon

    Female education is a problem.

    how much of that is due to current education being a problem in itself?

    education has largely become a desperate race for the credentials needed to avoid falling out of the shrinking middle class – if the middle class wasn’t shrinking and there were jobs available that could support a woman staying home when her kids were young would those credentials be as tempting?

  123. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Wow. So much hypocracy.

    I see Indians as untrustworthy, and I support mass deportation of your kind back to India. This view is shared by Europeans.

    Indians are collectivist and an unwelcome parasite on non-Indian lands.

    Are you really going to ignore Hindus humiliating others and raping their women? I would say Hindus are worse because of the barbaric caste system.

  124. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    from 2012

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/datablog/2012/apr/12/london-school-pupils-poverty-race

    non-white pupils
    inner London schools average 80% (highest 90%)
    outer London schools average 58% (highest 94%)

  125. Sean says:

    Gladstone:

    Let me endeavor, very briefly to sketch, in the rudest outline what the Turkish race was and what it is. It is not a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race. … They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity. Wherever they went a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization disappeared from view. They represented everywhere government by force as opposed to government by law.—Yet a government by force can not be maintained without the aid of an intellectual element.— Hence there grew up, what has been rare in the history of the world, a kind of tolerance in the midst of cruelty, tyranny and rapine. Much of Christian life was contemptuously left alone and a race of Greeks was attracted to Constantinople which has all along made up, in some degree, the deficiencies of Turkish Islam in the element of mind!

    A description of the young Enver Pasha “handsomest man in the Turkish Army”:

    A face immovable, well-formed, beautiful in the feminine sense. Groomed to the point of foppishness. Along with a streak of shocking hardness.

  126. The birth rate problem can be divided into three basic areas–technological, cultural, and legal/economic.

    Technological Problems

    There are two obvious ones.

    The first is birth control. While birth control in some form has always existed, effective birth control only become readily available recent.

    The second one is the mechanization and computerization makes female labor much more economically useful. In fact, there are a wide variety of occupations in the modern economy where I would argue that female labor is superior to male labor even accounting for various other female deficiencies (higher absenteeism, fewer hours worked, poor emotional stability.

    The first problem here can be solved pretty easily. The second one, not so much–and there’s a negative cost associated with “solving” it too thoroughly (lower GDP per capita, lower labor productivity).

    Cultural Problems

    There are a lot of problems here to unpack. I’m just going to throw out some bullet points:

    • Decline in religiosity
    • Normalization of premarital sex, casual sex, pornography, bastardy, etc.
    • Education cargo cult
    • Replacement of courtship with dating
    • Decline in ideal family size according to opinion polls
    • Increase in average age people wish to start a family
    • Hedonism leading to fear of family formation
    • Feminism, PUA, MGTOW, sugaring, etc.
    • Lifestyle inflation (can’t have a kid b/c we only have one car…)
    • LGBTQI$☭

    No doubt you can come up with a further laundry list. It’s bad out there.

    Legal/economic problems

    Divorce, child support, etc. are obviously a major obstacle to family formation. Men are afraid to get married and start families, and women for that matter fear abandonment. And broadly, as Roissy said: options = instability. The old model of marriage ’til death do you ‘part led to careful selection and forced people to suck it up and make the best of things. Every romantic relationship is now, functionally, temporary. If a business could be dissolved at any moment because one stockholder wanted out, how likely would that business be to make long-term capital expenditures?

    Female independence isn’t as problematic as it is made out to be by those of us in the manosphere, if we look at the consequences of it prior to the mid-century cultural revolution. The divorce rate did rise substantially, but stabilized at 10%. Female political efforts were largely directed into family-friendly programs. Remember, women WANT to have kids and nice homes.

    But I do still maintain it’s a problem. Women are highly susceptible to advertising and cultural trends. It’s quite obviously in the interests of capital, at least within an investing time horizon anyone cares about, to maximize female employment and purchasing power. Families strongly get in the way of this. Restoring ancien regime sex roles would eliminate this perverse incentive entirely, as women would not have earning power (income belonged to their husbands) and only the purchasing power allowed them by their husbands.

    Democracy itself may be part of the problem. Would monarchies have longer time horizons, and also be less suspectible to short term political pressure? Certainly NRx has made that argument, as did many conservatives in the 18th and 19th centuries.

    Then there are much remarked about problems like stagnant wages, high debt burdens, unaffordable real estate, the overeducation crisis, etc. all of which make it materially harder for young people to start families.

  127. @Thorfinnsson

    Also, this is often called the “modern” fertility transition. It first began to appear in 17th century France. The TFR of noblewomen dropped from around 7 in 1600 to something like 3 by the eve of Revolution. The reason was they wanted to spend more time in “society”, which goes to show how damaging hedonism is. The rest of French society followed after Napoleon, and the ultimately consequence of that was being defeated by Germany twice (and almost again another time). Population is power.

    But it’s not really modern at all. Notice this occurred in France BEFORE birth control, mechanization, compulsory schooling, etc. It just seems modern because of when the transition happened elsewhere.

    In fact it has happened long before. The ancients of classical antiquity went through this. It’s a key reason the Roman Empire succumbed to Germanic barbarians.

    The role of technology can’t be ignored, but this may have a lot more to do with “decadence”–an explanation commonly favored by preindustrial historians.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Yevardian
  128. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor

    they don’t advocate going to Muslim lands to outbreed the locals and then force them into dhimmitude

    Well neither do I. Since I am not a proponent of mass immigration, I feel no need to defend the issue.

    But we have to be real here – the majority of Muslims in Europe (minus the fairly recent waves) are not invaders. The word invader should retain some lexical significance; an invader is a troop of Turks with a vanguard of Janissaries knocking at you city walls or Marines rolling down your downtown in an Abrams tank (ask the citizens of Baghdad). A good portion of Muslim immigration consisted of; 1) flight of Muslims that helped the European colonial enterprise, 2) cheap labor that was brought in for work, 3) those that applied legally, were selected (I know this because my father was accepted an a bunch of my other uncles were rejected) and took the opportunity.

    Among my father’s generation, plenty of them actually thought they would come and earn money for a little while and simply go back to their homeland. If you knew those aspects of our community, you would understand why an organization like NAIT holds a huge ownership interest in many mosques across the US.

    Now maybe Europeans screwed up – OK. I accept that it was a failure of policy compounded by systemic issues that can’t seem to handle too much variation in the population. I get that – and now people want to undo the original screw up – especially since they’ve got better things to do than have kids and have pretty much given up the idea of winning the fight in converting Muslim immigrants – not that this would do much good since they are ethnically different and expulsions would proceed anyhow.

    The only people that would be surprised by this outcome are honestly the liberal-type Muslims who have massive delusions about the triumph of modernity and probably haven’t read too much on European history. I mean, I really can’t expect Muslims to be dealt very differently when the general pattern of dealing with ethnic and religious differences has been to bulldoze and expel minorities (even among other European peoples) until you get a relatively homogeneous and manageable population – this was, of course, a major result of the aftermaths of the two world wars. This seems to work for Europe and good for them.

    Like I said, just keep everything legal and do it by the book. Not much to ask.

    Therefore, the results of your peaceful Islam will be the subjugation of Europeans in their own lands

    My vision has nothing to do with this – it would result in the native Europeans taking their rightful place as the Quraysh of their respective regions. Why the hell would I want a bunch of Moroccans or Algerians or Pakistanis in charge or European countries??!! That’s insane. You are still stuck in this “Islam is an ethnicity” paradigm.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  129. Anonymous[315] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    No.

    It is most certainly NOT.

    A recent report, which was mentioned on the BBC website stated that by 2030, 75% of college age Londoners will be black/brown.

    Taking that – appalling – base, and extrapolating by the well known and incontrovertible birth differentials, which show absolutely no signs whatever of moderating, the 95% figure is undoubtedly a true prediction for the years 2050 to 2100.

  130. @Pericles

    Free telenovelas for all sistas in the USA. Ahorita!

  131. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    expect a fox not to act like a fox

    Seriously…muzzie taqiyyah? Seriously?

    Saracens tend to outbreed Europeans.

    Yeah – we like kids.My wife’s older sister married a White guy (he eventually ran away with another woman after like 2 years of marriage), but he was adamant about having no kids – I don’t understand these kinds of people.

    Unless the government imposes an ethnic one or two child policy the Saracens

    Newsflash – this is STILL more accommodating than expulsions. I like this thinking outside the box, much better than the bi-polar approach. Now we couldn’t do anything like that since controlling non-Muslim breeding policies is not sanctioned by the shariah, but you don’t have those limitations. So…there’s your solution right there; make it a crime – punishable by fine, jail, expulsion for Muslims (I’d assume you’d throw any ethnic converts into this category also) to have more than two kids.

    brings much more trouble than simply repatriating the foreigners.

    Utilitarian logic…check.

    As I said before – just keep it legal. Let’s keep to the European tradition of rule-of-law and what not.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  132. @John Gruskos

    Ultimately the Greeks lost control of their colonies on the shores of the Black Sea and Ionia because their population was like a veneer along the coast. Not peopling the interior in depth behind these cities they were vulnerable to siege by land-based states whose power was grounded in the interior.

    An analogy today would be to imagine the Netherlands, Denmark and England without the bulwark of Germany acting as a buffer between them and larger, voracious continental-powers. During WW2, Denmark submitted to German protection (albeit reluctantly), but neither the Netherlands nor England could grasp Hitler’s reasoning when he tried to educate them concerning the larger historic forces at play. England could not grasp his point because their judgement was clouded by romantic visions of:

    This fortress built by Nature for herself
    Against infection and the hand of war,
    This happy breed of men, this little world,
    This precious stone set in the silver sea,
    Which serves it in the office of a wall

    which of course was all rendered moot by advances in aerial warfare. But the English pride themselves on clinging to their quaint notions.

    Of course, Hitler has been proven right. England today is falling to the blank-slate-Pavlovian (small c) communists, their very nation is being immivasioned out from under their feet. Without the bulwark of Germany, we see the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and to a lesser extent, Denmark too, being overrun by barbarian hordes from the interior.

    • Replies: @DFH
  133. songbird says:
    @Anonymous

    There’s nothing stopping it – at least now, that is the path that it is on. So, too most of the cities of Europe. They are putting up statues of blacks. In Denmark they put up a statue of a black lady sitting on a throne with a torch in one hand and a killing implement in the other.

    Detroit has about hit that mark. In 1910, it was 98.7% white. People would have thought you a loon if you told them what would happen to the city then. London is actually close to about 1980-level Detroit, with the obvious difference it is a browner mix. Could Detroit be saved in 1980? No, it was already past salvation; the Doom was descending on it.

    Of course, that was blacks, but Africa is about ready to explode with billions of “refugees.”

  134. DFH says:
    @ThreeCranes

    which of course was all rendered moot by advances in aerial warfare.

    That must be why the Germans blitzkrieged Britain in 1941 and forced Britain to capitulate………

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  135. Pericles says:
    @Tulip

    we will get a tie-in with the truth about space aliens with their anal probes and why the U.S. government is suppressing the truth about their existence.

    Our sensors are already detecting a lot of hurt butts, Captain.

  136. Pericles says:
    @songbird

    For instance, there is a movement to replace the national anthem, which evokes blood and soil and fighting with one that purely evokes geography.

    Yes, no doubt Ireland is really just an area of land, one that can be conveniently taxed by the appropriate globohomo authorities. This seems to be a popular post-nationalistic conceit.

  137. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Female independence isn’t as problematic as it is made out to be by those of us in the manosphere, if we look at the consequences of it prior to the mid-century cultural revolution.

    Depends on how you define “independence”. Today, it includes economic independence, which involves higher education and full time formal employment and professional careers. This wasn’t the case prior to the mid-20th century, when women were formally and informally barred from higher education and most occupations besides things like nursing and clerical work designated for women.

    Women have high fertility for roughly 20 years, from around their mid-teen years to their mid-30s. Secondary education and college basically slash that window in half. Most women of course don’t settle down immediately after college but spend some time establishing themselves in their careers or pursuing post-grad education, which narrows the fertility window even further. And something like around 75% of girls go to college.

    So it’s no surprise that fertility has dropped dramatically. You have a large majority of women whose fertility window time is slashed by at least 50% or more as the time is spent instead on education and employment.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  138. @Thorfinnsson

    effective birth control only become readily available recent

    Pulling it out is very reliable. I’ve done it literally a thousand times, and the ladies (mostly, just two ladies) never got pregnant. When later we decided to have a child with my wife, it happened in less than three months. Based on that, I’d estimate that pulling it out decreases the chances of a pregnancy by 99+%.

    I think the big difference is that the pill and condom are controlled by the woman: she can be sure she won’t get pregnant, so no need to worry about it during the act. This makes one night stands way more attractive for the ladies (they still don’t like it much), which in turn makes it much more available for the guys.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  139. @Anonymous

    There were some limitations on female independence (notably, women often couldn’t get loans without the approval of their husbands), but in most Western countries women had relatively equal rights prior to the war.

    I don’t think the shift of women from family orientation to career orientation (or, more accurately, trying to “have it all”) can be attributed primarily to the change in their legal status. Women have always worked, and the early trend of mechanization was for women to instead work less. Although there were female business executives already in the 1930s.

    It seems that instead there was a 20th century cultural revolution from above which was pushed by media and academia. The war, as always, also had a big impact.

    Here’s a Fortune Magazine article on female bosses from 1956: http://fortune.com/2012/09/23/women-as-bosses-fortune-1956/

    The number of women in the U.S. Census category labeled Managers, Officials, and Proprietors more than doubled between 1940 and January, 1956-from 450,000 to about one million. At the same time the number of women in the Professional, Technical, and Kindred Workers category grew from 1,570,000 to 2,400,000 (a 53 per cent gain). In all, then, there would seem to be some 3,400,000 “business and professional women.”

    Amusing to see (((David Sarnoff))) promoting women in STEM more than sixty years ago. I suppose he hadn’t thought to “innovate” the “Code of Conduct”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  140. @Thorfinnsson

    I entirely agree. It’s not really a technological issue, nor necessarily something to do with modernity.

  141. @reiner Tor

    Pulling out is very reliable when done effectively. Which not all men do, either today or historically. It was reliable enough that birth rates used to rise and fall with economic cycles, but not reliable enough for a sensible woman to have casual sex (as you point out).

    Normalization of casual sex in return delays marriage or in some cases eliminates it. Men for their part will often try to opt out of it entirely (they ultimately succumb to pressure or lack of options), whereas women will keep trying to find “The One” (good luck) and make sure they’d “had their fun” before settling down.

    Women like casual sex and one night stands probably as much as men these days, but go about it differently. They still want to be chased and overcome, and are usually the first to attempt to develop a romantic relationship out of such relations.

  142. @Talha

    We are talking about things screwed up decades ago by others. It’s bad for all involved, including the immigrants who lost their roots, the Europeans who are losing their countries, even the liberal elites, many of whom are going to be extinct soon. It’s also bad for the Muslims who are being bombed and killed and invaded in their own countries.

  143. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    It’s not a matter of women working in the abstract. Housewives and mothers work, even though they may not be independent. The critical factor is economic independence. There were formal and informal barriers to female economic independence: most colleges and many occupations did not accept female students and employees, there was social pressure against women, it was both legal and expected to discriminate against women in favor of men in education and the workplace, etc. All this served to inhibit female economic independence. Once these legal and social sanctions were removed, and economic independence became not just allowed but expected of women, the scarce resource of women’s fertility window time became expended on higher education and employment rather than childbearing.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  144. @DFH

    This is well plowed ground. The German blitz against England was a left-handed affair. Germany’s main concerns were her ground war with the USSR, the war in North Africa, the U boat war in the Atlantic and fortifying the Atlantic seawall.

    You have your actors reversed. Flaunting both The Hague and Geneva Conventions, Britain and the Americans waged virtual unlimited aerial warfare against Germany, bombing: her citizens, infrastructure, residential dwellings, urban businesses, former Hanseatic League historic old-town city cores etc. The tonnage dropped is fantastically one sided with the Allies guilty of innumerable war crimes.

    Next, had Hitler waited 5 years until Germany had developed both the jet engine and more sophisticated rockets capable of delivering real payloads, England would have been toast. So, yes, WW2 rendered Enland’s quaint notions of being a verdant island fortress obsolete.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  145. @DFH

    Nothing of the sort, take your lies somewhere else

    Christ didn’t teach about ‘Heaven’, his Gospel was the Resurrection and the Kingdom of God. What’s the point of dying and coming back to life if your message is a banal stupidity about ‘souls’ in ‘Heaven’?

    ‘it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body’ and verse 50 ‘ I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable’.

    Again, read what it actually says. The message is about the Resurrection and the life to come, not some ‘spiritual’ good trip of disembodied souls.

    Anyway, where exactly do you think Christ physically is now then? Hiding somewhere behind Jupiter? In another galaxy?

    I suggest you read the Apostolic Creed, your questions are answered there.

    • Replies: @DFH
  146. DFH says:
    @anonymous coward

    Christ didn’t teach about ‘Heaven

    Then explain Matthew 4:17 ‘απο τοτε ἠρξατο ὁ Ιησουσ κερυσσειν και λεγειν Μετανοιετε, ἠγγικεν γαρ ἡ βασιλεια των οὐρανων’ or in English ‘from then, Jesus began to preach and to say Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is coming near’

    not some ‘spiritual’ good trip of disembodied souls

    When did I say it was about ‘some spiritual good trip’? What are you rambling about?

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 ‘After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.’

    I suggest you read the Apostolic Creed, your questions are answered there.

    You are correct that they are; the Apostolic Creed says; ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς which means ‘having ascended into heaven’

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  147. Bliss says:
    @anonymous coward

    The Gospels preach the Kingdom of God, not ‘Heaven’. The Kingdom of God is what comes after this universe ends. It will be physical, people will exist there in the flesh. (No disembodied ‘spirits’ or ‘souls’ in Christianity.)

    That is a fallacy which contradicts the Pantheistic Gospel (Good News) of Jesus:

    The Kingdom of God is within you

    In other words the good news Jesus was preaching was this: the core of our being is God.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  148. @ThreeCranes

    The Battle of Britain was launched and fought before the H-man had decided on war with the USSR or even started planning Operation Barbarossa (October, 1940).

    The Germans didn’t start preparing to intervene in North Africa until November, 1940 and didn’t arrive until February, 1941.

    Construction of the Atlantic Wall did not begin until 1942.

    The German Navy had a Mahanian doctrine and was planning on a balanced fleet (see Plan Z). Only Doenitz was in favor of a commerce war doctrine.

    While Germany’s ballistic missiles came as a complete surprise, they were also not particularly useful since they were extremely expensive but carried only small explosive payloads. One V-2 cost as much as 500 medium bombers and the program cost exceeded the Manhattan Project.

    The Germans did field jet fighters first and had the world’s first jet flight, the jet engine was invented in Britain. Technology wasn’t standing still in countries outside of Germany, and they had more resources than Germany.

    In reality the Germans had a completely continental conception of strategy and other than a few naval officers simply had no idea of how even to begin to fight Britain. Unfortunately for Germany, Hitler himself was an Anglophile and kept imagining he could work out a grand bargain with Britain until 1938-1939 or so.

    He was dumbfounded when Britain refused his peace overtures in 1940 and finally authorized an all out air assault on Britain. Unfortunately for him, the Luftwaffe was run by fools and in any case wasn’t properly equipped for the job.

  149. ussr andy says:

    which is better – to have a small state all for yourself (your ethnic group) or share a big state with all kinds of…

    iow, at what point does the “nice white country”-ness (I mean the “small Russia centred around Novgorod” anti-nationalist canard) and all the benefits for the body politick that accrue from that, begins to be offset by the fact that the country is just too small to make anything useful or resist assimilation into the POZ.

    someone should run the numbers.

    • Replies: @ussr andy
  150. ussr andy says:
    @ussr andy

    internal migration controls seem like the best of both worlds. This way you get to be big *and* free (freer than by having all the imperial dystopian identity politics sh** designed to balance ethnic interests against each other.) I wonder why no country has them.

    • Replies: @iffen
  151. Yevardian says:
    @Dmitry

    Well there is Israel, but they are helped by a huge diaspora and the sheer incompetence of Arabs/Muslims.

  152. Yevardian says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Fecund white population goes to school, gets pumped with massive shot of maths and literacy, doesn’t feel good and changes – SOCIETAL COLLAPSE. Many such cases!

  153. @Talha

    Seriously…muzzie taqiyyah? Seriously?

    No. I actually forgot foxes had that connotation. Well I suppose it is a good thing I recently bought a new book about fairy tales.

    Newsflash – this is STILL more accommodating than expulsions.

    But the Saracens in Europe won’t see it that way. All they will be able to compare the new restrictions to will be their previous lives.

    At least some of these people will be quite angry and retaliate, and I’d really appreciate not having to live with a siege mentality.

    Utilitarian logic…check.

    As I said before – just keep it legal. Let’s keep to the European tradition of rule-of-law and what not.

    I am not sure what you mean here? Do you mean peaceful expulsions?

    Because while I like the measured tone of the Alhambra Decree, but I see any legal documents that will be issued as primarily justifying the action to our compatriots.

    https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Alhambra_decree

    • Replies: @Talha
  154. Anon[227] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    We do have a sacred law you unwashed inbred, Your destruction!

    Jai Shri Rama!!

    • Replies: @Talha
  155. Andy says:

    Ironically, most Turks today are quite close genetically to Greeks. They obviously mostly descend from Greeks living in the Anatolia peninsula. The original Turks were East Asian (look at a photo of Kazakhs or Kirghizes today), they did not seem to leave much of a genetic legacy on Turks today.

  156. Talha says:
    @Anon

    Uh hunh…

    Look, if I’ve told you guys once I’ve told you a hundred times:
    1) I’ll start taking you guys a little seriously when you stop using the Taj Mahal in every ad for visiting India.
    2) I’ll be a little more impressed once you claim a god was born there and appropriate it for a Tata manufacturing plant – and tell UNESCO they can go to hell and the Taliban ain’t got nothing on you.
    2) I’ll be very seriously impressed once you’ve captured our holy cities, stuff the Kaaba with your idols and have a bunch of these guys over to rub their foreskins on it:

    Let’s make it happen folks!

    • Replies: @Anon
  157. Sean says:

    Genocide as a smart move?

  158. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    The critical factor is economic independence.

    The forced prostitution solution rears its ugly head again.

    Once these legal and social sanctions were removed, and economic independence became not just allowed but expected of women, the scarce resource of women’s fertility window time became expended on higher education and employment rather than childbearing.

    This is not a necessary consequence of women having the option of self-sufficiency. It is rather the consequence of a deceitful, conniving elite who sold expanded higher education as the solution to the displacement of the American worker as a result of offshoring and immigration.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  159. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Do you believe the social arrangement that prevailed for women until the mid-20th century qualified as “forced prostitution”?

    It’s absolutely a necessary consequence as female fertility is a finite resource.

    Offshoring and immigration do not explain it as the American worker has a higher material standard of living today despite offshoring and immigration compared to, say, the 19th century when he didn’t have indoor plumbing and electricity and fertility was higher. Moreover, we see similar declines in fertility in areas with less or no offshoring and immigration.

    Today, the American worker can buy more and better material goods than he could in the past despite offshoring and immigration. What he cannot do today however is outbid the economy for women. In the past, because women were generally kept out of the workforce, there was little bidding by the economy for women. Once they entered the workforce, the economy started bidding for them and there was tremendous inflation, making it much harder for the average American worker to bid for them against the economy. Generally speaking, a man must be much wealthier today than in the recent past in order to bid successfully for a woman’s fertile years.

    Here is a picture of a Dust Bowl family with several young children. Back then, which was not too long ago, a man could get a woman to literally shack up with him in a shack with no running water or electricity and on the brink of starvation in a dust covered wasteland, and bear him several children. Needless to say, that’s not the case today, when women have economic independence and other options.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Rosie
    , @notanon
  160. iffen says:
    @Anonymous

    What he cannot do today however is outbid the economy for women.

    Maybe part of the problem is men who “value” consumer crap over women who can and will bear children with them.

  161. iffen says:
    @ussr andy

    I wonder why no country has them.

    For some unknown reason(s), communism has fallen out of favor over the last few years.

    someone should run the numbers.

    Many of the numbers come up dead.

    • Replies: @ussr andy
  162. @DFH

    When did I say it was about ‘some spiritual good trip’? What are you rambling about?

    Christ taught the Resurrection and the Kingdom of God in the world to come. He did not preach about a ‘life after death’ and being nice and going to heaven.

    There’s a crucial difference here: the Christian vision is that of setting right the wrongs in this, fundamentally God-given and good world.

    The other vision is a vision of shedding the shackles of material existence and becoming disembodied ‘souls’. This is a Gnostic, and thus Satanic, vision.

    People confusing Christianity and Gnosticism is why everything sucks so terribly bad in the western world so much now. We are literally being punished by God for this mistake.

    • Replies: @DFH
  163. @Bliss

    “The Kingdom of God is within you” means that accepting God’s grace and becoming part of His Kingdom ultimately is every human’s personal decision. It’s a direct answer to Calvin’s heresies.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  164. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Do you believe the social arrangement that prevailed for women until the mid-20th century qualified as “forced prostitution”?

    No. Women always had the option of religious orders, now gone as a result of (((secularization))).

    Offshoring and immigration do not explain it as the American worker has a higher material standard of living today despite offshoring and immigration compared to, say, the 19th century when he didn’t have indoor plumbing and electricity and fertility was higher.

    Irrelevant. Housing is more expensive as a result of building codes that outlaw cheap housing with minimal utilities.

    Today, the American worker can buy more and better material goods than he could in the past despite offshoring and immigration.

    The cell phone fallacy. Cheap consumer goods are not the key to affordable family formation. Whites want housing in a “good school district” (a white neighborhood) and will not start a family without it. This is the scarce resource you should be concerned about.

    Moreover, we see similar declines in fertility in areas with less or no offshoring and immigration.

    You implied that women having the option of self-sufficiency necessarily leads to women spending the entirety of their third decade in an institution of tertiary education. That is false.

    Your entire argument is a gigantic false dilemma: Either forced prostitution or low birth rates. Even if you could prove that women in the workforce was the sine qua non of the 20th century trend towards low birth rates, you still wouldn’t have proven that it is necessary to force women into prostitution to raise birth rates. Keep reading that sentence until you get it.

    BTW, there is little global correlation between low birth rates and female workforce participation. Do the research.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @reiner Tor
  165. DFH says:
    @anonymous coward

    So you have not even tried to refute my actual argument, based upon the words of the New Testament (which is sensible, I suppose, since you cant’), instead you have for whatever reason pegged me as being on the wrong side of a binary you have whatever reason become attached to.

    I will reiterate my points above; Christ did talk about heaven (as does the Creed you mentioned), it is eternal and currently exists and is not a place in the same way as Swindon, Jupiter or Alpha Centauri and Christ has already gone there and has promised that his disciples will be there with him.

  166. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    Today, the American worker can buy more and better material goods than he could in the past despite offshoring and immigration.

    you’re wrong

    out of all of them i dislike Warren the most cos she figured out what the problem was but wouldn’t take the obvious next step

    despite that failing she explains in this lecture the root cause of the problem better than anyone else

    TL;DR cheaper consumer goods outweighed by more expensive housing

    and what caused housing to become such a big part of expenditure?

    “good schools”

    (aka safe schools)

    (aka schools where your kids are part of an overwhelming ethnic majority)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  167. ussr andy says:
    @iffen

    actually, I now realized there is a country.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  168. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @notanon

    I’m not wrong. I’m familiar with Warren’s work on this, and everything she says is consistent with what I’ve said here.

    Warren says that people spend less on consumer goods today. People today can buy more and better consumer goods at lower prices. Just like I said.

    What Warren says has gone up are housing costs, child care costs, the added expense of an additional car, and healthcare costs and taxes.

    Housing, child care, and extra car costs are driven by female economic independence, which drove up expectations and inflated the costs.

    In the 30s, you could get a girl to marry you and pump out a bunch of kids with just a shack with no running water and electricity in a desolate, dust covered wasteland. You can’t do that today. She has economic independence today and options and expectations, which have inflated the cost of a house adequate to satisfy her.

    In the 50s, there were no “child care costs”; women stayed home and took care of the kids. And most families had one car, that the man drove.

    • Replies: @notanon
  169. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Religious orders for women still exist. I’m not sure how having the sole option of living in a cloistered, authoritarian environment of forced celibacy meant that the older social arrangement did not qualify as “forced prostitution” in your mind.

    If we got rid of building codes, do you think women today would suddenly start having families with guys with shacks with no utilities like they did back in the Dust Bowl?

    Whites had higher fertility when they were living close to starvation in shacks with no utilities, and when most kids weren’t sent to school and didn’t learn to read. Obviously it’s not true that nice houses and schools are prerequisites for high fertility.

    Yes, female economic independence means that more women spend their third decade in higher education than they would otherwise.

    I never said that the only way to raise fertility was to inhibit female economic independence. There are obviously other ways like immigration, specialization where some women in the population choose to have extraordinary numbers of children, technical measures like surrogates, artificial wombs, etc.

    “Female workforce participation” and “female economic independence” are not the same thing.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  170. @Rosie

    If forcing a woman to be married to a guy as a stay at home mom without the possibility of divorce (it cuts both ways, of course, so no risk of your husband leaving you and the kids) is “forced prostitution,” then you think of yourself as a voluntary prostitute?

    You are pretty confused if you think that being married to a guy and staying home with his kids is any kind of prostitution.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  171. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    Housing, child care, and extra car costs are driven by female economic independence, which drove up expectations and inflated the costs.

    they were driven by white flight

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  172. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @notanon

    Shacks with no utilities, and the suburban 1950s family with the stay at home mom and one family car, were before white flight. Those were adequate to satisfy most women back then. That’s no longer the case, as women’s demands and expectations have increased significantly.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @notanon
  173. Anon[227] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    We’ll start taking you seriously when you don’t have to invent foreign lineages for yourselves

    • Replies: @Talha
  174. Talha says:
    @Anon

    You already take us seriously – most of the ads I’ve ever seen for tourism to India has remnants of some form or other of Mughal architecture; Taj Mahal, Red Fort, Agra Fort, etc. I’m telling you – hell, I’m daring you – tear them down.

    I mean if your sacred law does mandate that you completely destroy us; least you can do is wipe out a bunch of abandoned buildings to cleanse India of our historical presence.

    Some of us have foreign lineage some don’t; you can usually tell upon looking at the person but not always. I was talking to my son’s first Quran teacher and it turns out his family is mostly local stock Hyderabadi, but a couple of generations back, he also had Chinese input. And thus it goes…

  175. Rosie says:
    @reiner Tor

    If forcing a woman to be married to a guy as a stay at home mom without the possibility of divorce (it cuts both ways, of course, so no risk of your husband leaving you and the kids) is “forced prostitution,” then you think of yourself as a voluntary prostitute?

    No, because I didn’t marry for a meal ticket. I married for love and companionship in accordance with God’s plan for marriage, which requires the free and willing consent of the parties. I consider myself a loved, honored, and cherished helpmeet.

  176. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Religious orders for women still exist. I’m not sure how having the sole option of living in a cloistered, authoritarian environment of forced celibacy meant that the older social arrangement did not qualify as “forced prostitution” in your mind.

    Not really. They don’t have the financial resources to support women as social workers, teachers, nurses, etc. as they once did. Nuns were the original career girls.

    If we got rid of building codes, do you think women today would suddenly start having families with guys with shacks with no utilities like they did back in the Dust Bowl?

    Absolutely. The trouble with 1800 square foot houses with four toilets is that you don’t get to spend much time in them. You have to work your life away to pay the mortgage, and the childcare costs for your kids, assuming you can afford to have any.

    Of course, you’d have to restore the right to freedom of association.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_house_movement

    Whites had higher fertility when they were living close to starvation in shacks with no utilities, and when most kids weren’t sent to school and didn’t learn to read. Obviously it’s not true that nice houses and schools are prerequisites for high fertility.

    You don’t understand White psychology. Whites are responsible people who avoid bringing children into a life of squalor if they have access to contraceptive information and/or technology. Excluding women from the workplace will do nothing to change this.

    Yes, female economic independence means that more women spend their third decade in higher education than they would otherwise.

    This is chiefly a function of credential inflation, not any genuine necessity for endless years of education.

    There are obviously other ways like immigration, specialization where some women in the population choose to have extraordinary numbers of children, technical measures like surrogates, artificial wombs, etc.

    None of these absurd suggestions are necessary to raise fertility. Exactly how many children do you think White women should have? A woman who has her first child at 25 should have no difficulty having four to six children if she wants.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Yevardian
  177. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Shacks with no utilities, and the suburban 1950s family with the stay at home mom and one family car, were before white flight. Those were adequate to satisfy most women back then. That’s no longer the case, as women’s demands and expectations have increased significantly.

    That’s what we’re trying to tell you. A shack in a nice White suburb with no mom-mobile would be perfectly fine with us.

  178. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Nuns take vows of poverty, celibacy, and obedience to the head of their order and ultimately to the Church, which incidentally is run by men. They are not “career girls”. Female teachers and nurses make decent salaries, are not celibate, and do not pledge obedience to a bunch of men.

    According to you, young women these days are dying to live in shacks with no utilities. Diamonds aren’t a girl’s best friend – hovels are. Someone should tell the men’s rights and PUA people about this. All a guy needs to get laid today is wooden shed Game. “Hey baby, I’ve a got wood shed out back.” That’ll really reel them in.

    According to your reasoning, there should be no whites in existence today since whites don’t reproduce in “squalor” and until very recently material conditions everywhere would have qualified as “squalor” by contemporary standards.

    Female economic independence produces credential inflation. Women did not need credentials before economic independence.

    Average age of first birth in the US is 28. In most wealthy countries it’s in the early 30s.

  179. Rosie says:

    Female teachers and nurses make decent salaries, are not celibate, and do not pledge obedience to a bunch of men.

    Indeed. Women working in such fields remain available for marriage. What you want is to deny them appropriate remuneration for their work so that they are forced to marry for a meal ticket.

    All a guy needs to get laid today is wooden shed Game.

    Get laid? Oh, I see. I thought we were talking about family formation.

    According to your reasoning, there should be no whites in existence today since whites don’t reproduce in “squalor” and until very recently material conditions everywhere would have qualified as “squalor” by contemporary standards.

    Because they had condoms and IUDs in the Middle Ages. Oh wait, no they didn’t.

    Female economic independence produces credential inflation. Women did not need credentials before economic independence.

    You think maybe the (((student loan racket))) might have something to do with it?

    Average age of first birth in the US is 28. In most wealthy countries it’s in the early 30s.

    See above.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  180. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    You’re the one that brought up nuns first to argue that “forced prostitution” didn’t prevail in the past because women had the option of being nuns instead. Now you seem to be suggesting that the option of being a nun is not adequate and that women need remuneration.

    People had the “pull and pray” method and other methods like timing the ovulation cycle. There were also forms of abortion and infanticide. At any rate, you seem to be suggesting that the only reason that whites exist today is because modern forms of contraception didn’t exist until recently, which is an absurd notion.

  181. Yevardian says:
    @Rosie

    All sorts of unique opinions here at Unz, I just found about white nationalist feminism.

    At any rate, you seem to be suggesting that the only reason that whites exist today is because modern forms of contraception didn’t exist until recently, which is an absurd notion.

    Absurd but disturbingly plausible. Contraception in itself absolutely absurd and unprecedented from an evolutionary point of view.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  182. Rosie says:

    Now you seem to be suggesting that the option of being a nun is not adequate and that women need remuneration.

    Nuns were compensated for their services, in kind. So yes, the nunnery option did give women an out. The vow of poverty means that you cannot accumulate personal wealth, but you still had three hots and a cot. You were, almost literally, a bride of Christ.

    People had the “pull and pray” method and other methods like timing the ovulation cycle.

    What do you call couples who use the rhythm method?

    Parents! In all seriousness, only recently has this method begun to work because of advances in our knowledge of the cycle. As for abortion and infanticide, remember that until recently ordinary people believed in a literal lake of fire in which they would burn for all eternity for such a grave sin.

    At any rate, you seem to be suggesting that the only reason that whites exist today is because modern forms of contraception didn’t exist until recently, which is an absurd notion.

    Not at all. Whites have the tendency to internalize moral norms. They avoid children in poverty because they believe, rightly or wrongly, that it is immoral to do so, because children need this and children need that. Moreover, you are ignoring the issue of insecurity. Medieval serfs were miserably poor by our standards, but they couldn’t be kicked off their land. If they were to starve, they would starve together with their community. Finally, they didn’t have to deal with the presence of aggressive, hostile minorities. Exploitive as they were, at least the nobles under whose boot they lived out their lives never perpetrated this travesty against them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  183. Rosie says:
    @Yevardian

    All sorts of unique opinions here at Unz, I just found about white nationalist feminism.

    Lol. I really don’t consider myself a feminist. Others call me a feminist, and I presume they have a different definition of feminism than I do. If you’re familiar with Phyllis Schlaffly (pbuh), my views are similar.

  184. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    before white flight

    yes

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  185. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    All they will be able to compare the new restrictions to will be their previous lives.

    That’s true, but so what? Does this mean you can never put the gay-pride genie back in the bottle?

    At least some of these people will be quite angry and retaliate, and I’d really appreciate not having to live with a siege mentality.

    This is possible – and probably more so with expulsions…so pick your poison.

    Do you mean peaceful expulsions?

    Correct; by the book, with full transparency, completely legal and with enforcement done by constabulary or other government.

    If you are talking about doing it through some vigilante off-the-books methods, then I would highly recommend against that. If you unilaterally rescind the social-contract that ensures the safety of Muslims you break the two-way trust. If you do that and come after their babies – the Shariah can immediately consider the place to have been converted from Dar ul-Aman to Dar ul-Harb and basically a free-fire zone with respect to any potentially-threatening military age males (I would study the history of Gaza and West Bank). Europeans of course would likely win this tug-of-war but there would be a good amount of body-bags on their side as well. It’s a really, really stupid strategy to pursue when you have other options.

    Much better to keep things on the books, open and do it according to the letter of the law.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  186. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Nuns take vows of poverty, celibacy, and obedience to men. This should not qualify as an “out” from your point of view. It should qualify as a form of “slavery” to men, if not “prostitution”, although priests and the like did forcibly have sex with nuns at times.

    Nobody lives in “poverty” today compared to the material conditions that prevailed until very recently. So it’s not an explanation no matter all the sophistry you engage in. The only thing that has gone up in price is the cost for men of acquiring fertile mates as a result of female economic independence.

    Various European countries that were homogeneous, along with other homogeneous countries, had much lower fertility rates than the US, so the minorities explanation doesn’t work either. And fertility rates in the US were much higher when there were aggressive, hostile Indians and when blacks were majorities in various colonies and states in the South.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  187. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @notanon

    White flight is not what made women suddenly decide that they were too good for a shack with no running water and electricity or for a small Levittown house and one car.

  188. @Talha

    That’s true, but so what? Does this mean you can never put the gay-pride genie back in the bottle?

    Homosexuals are not known for their spontaneous self-combustion.

    This is possible – and probably more so with expulsions…so pick your poison.

    Expulsions represent a fait accompli that is hard to reverse.

    Algeria, despite their suitcase-or-coffin methods, are not suffering from French terrorism, simply because there aren’t any Frenchmen left in Algeria.

    If you unilaterally rescind the social-contract that ensures the safety of Muslims you break the two-way trust.

    So what do you consider Europe-born jihadists and other assailants to have been doing? We aren’t the initiators here, our actions are fundamentally defensive. We don’t seek to conquer Middle Eastern lands.

    (I would study the history of Gaza and West Bank).

    Doesn’t this just reinforce my point? The Israelis let the situation become a festering wound and now they are suffering the consequences of it.

    Gazans and Cisjordanians are the Palestinians who didn’t get ethnically cleased and commit a lot more regular attacks against Israel than the Palestinians living in Jordan and Syria who did get ethnically cleansed.

    the Shariah can immediately consider the place to have been converted from Dar ul-Aman to Dar ul-Harb and basically a free-fire zone with respect to any potentially-threatening military age males

    Much better to keep things on the books, open and do it according to the letter of the law.

    I am not particularly picky. Since we will need to seize control of the state apparatus anyway, if the easiest way is allow a grace period of 24 months or something similar to resolve all issues, complete with financial recompense for remaining non-liquidised assets and pensions, and if needed bribes and offers they can’t refuse to make up for the lower living standards in home countries, then that is fine by me.

    ===

    I just don’t see why you see dhimmitude as particularly humane. Even the current ‘tolerant’ policies has merely produced on the whole a deracinated and ailenated lumpenproletariat.

    Rootless cosmopolitanism erases all meaning and makes foreigners of us all.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Talha
  189. @Hyperborean

    the Shariah can immediately consider the place to have been converted from Dar ul-Aman to Dar ul-Harb and basically a free-fire zone with respect to any potentially-threatening military age males

    Well, usually jihadist or islamist volunteers in ‘non-core’ lands tend usually to have mainly propaganda value.

  190. Bliss says:
    @anonymous coward

    The Kingdom of God is within you” means that accepting God’s grace and becoming part of His Kingdom ultimately is every human’s personal decision.

    The Kingdom of God is “within” you means what it says. “Within” is a location, not a decision.

    Secondly, what part of “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable’” can’t you understand?

    Thirdly, what do think is meant by: “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you(John 14:20)

    • Replies: @anonymous
  191. anonymous[116] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bliss

    No homo.

  192. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Nuns take vows of poverty, celibacy, and obedience to men. This should not qualify as an “out” from your point of view. It should qualify as a form of “slavery” to men, if not “prostitution”, although priests and the like did forcibly have sex with nuns at times.

    You don’t understand the essence of my objection to forced marriage. If you are going to characterize religious orders as “slavery” and “prostitution,” then you’d have to say the same about any woman who has a job with a male boss.

    Nobody lives in “poverty” today compared to the material conditions that prevailed until very recently. So it’s not an explanation no matter all the sophistry you engage in.

    Do you not understand that poverty, and perceptions of poverty, are relative? Even if you wanted to raise children in a shack with no utilities, it would be illegal to do so. CPS would come around and take your kids.

    Various European countries that were homogeneous, along with other homogeneous countries, had much lower fertility rates than the US, so the minorities explanation doesn’t work either.

    Various European countries have very high population density and could not possibly have sustained ongoing population growth after the advent of modern sanitation and medicine. Falling birthrates are a natural and inevitable consequence of the falling death rate. In the Middle Ages, a woman had to bear five children in order to keep the population stable. That is no longer the case. I will ask you again: How many children do you think White women should have? We’re not going to win a breeding contest with non-Whites. Nor do we need to, so long as we defend our borders.

    And fertility rates in the US were much higher when there were aggressive, hostile Indians and when blacks were majorities in various colonies and states in the South.

    And White men would not tolerate their presence around White women and children.

  193. @Talha

    My factual understanding of Islam/Muslims(Please feel free to refute any/all of these assertions in a factual logical manner):

    1. Founded by an illiterate(The only major religion founded by an illiterate)
    2. Founded by a SEX PERVERT (50+ year old getting it on with child was a sick perversion even in an age where child marriages were common)
    3. Divide the world into believers and unbelievers and seriously believe it is the divine right of the believers to persecute non believers.
    4. Interesting ritual of pointing your backsides to the sky(Symbolising heaven ?) faces to the ground(Symbolising hell?) 5 times a day.
    5.Has problems and armed conflicts with all other religions on all continents.There is not a single non muslim city/country where the Muslim population is >5% and there are no problems/regular clashes.
    6.Wants to be understood and insists on being treated with kid gloves and special treatment in non muslim countries(halal food,separate prayer rooms at airport etc etc) but insists on their inability to give equal rights to non believers in their own countries on the ground that their holy book supposedly revealed to the illiterate pervert(reason for describing Mohammed as such is covered in points 1&2) prevents such treatment.
    7.The vast majority think it is appropriate to kill people for leaving their religion/cult.
    8.The vast majority believe in stoning/amputation as legitimate punishments in the 21st century
    9.The vast majority thinks blasphemy should be punished by death.Even the ”moderates” are campaigning against misuse of blasphemy laws not their repeal.
    10. Calls itself the religion of peace

    Given these irrefutable facts I have issue with the word Islamophobia.You see phobia is an irrational fear but given these facts it would be irrational for a non Muslim NOT to fear an increase in the Mohammedan population in their countries.

    I have no issues with any other minority community in India.Take Zoroastrians for example,there is no way these people would be allowed the sort of influence and prestige in any Muslim country of the sort they have in India.This is many orders of magnitude superior to forcing them to live like dhimmis, you actually have the nerve to claim it is a morally justifiable even superior way of treating minorities in this day and age.

    • Replies: @Talha
  194. Talha says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Let’s go down the line:
    1. Yes.
    2. No since she was a woman by her own admission. Biological adulthood enters upon a person when they hit puberty – that’s menarche for women and that normally occurs in some 9 year olds.
    3. Yes divides the world into believers and non-believers but we are not allowed to persecute and oppress – those that did persecute and oppress non-Muslims under their care will answer to God for their crimes.
    4. The ritual is prostration – putting the most noble part of one’s body on the ground in obeisance. Buddhists also do this.
    5. So it seems. We certainly do have an extremist problem we need to keep under control – I agree here.
    6. No – someone like me wants either; 1) the same treatment as we give to others which is to allow them to live by their own religious rules (as per dhimmi contract – which is why non-Muslims could always drink and own alcohol, etc.) or 2) live up to the definitions of their own laws – that state equal treatment – now if they want to change the laws, then that’s fine, but don’t say then that you are for equal treatment.
    7. True, though we will see if that is going to be changed within the future as it is already being discussed at the highest level of scholarship and was already something the Ottomans left behind during Tanzimat reforms. So we’ll see how this goes.
    8. Correct – if the evidence meets the requirements.
    9. No, the vast majority believes it should be punished (as I do) – but the classical rules are flexible enough that there is no need to kill offenders when jail time or other punishment will do.
    10. It actually translates as “submission” as in “submission to the will of God”. It has both rules fore peace and war.

    This is many orders of magnitude superior to forcing them to live like dhimmis

    It is of course better than allowing them to live as second class citizens.

    you actually have the nerve to claim it is a morally justifiable even superior way of treating minorities in this day and age.

    Well, it’s far superior than the expulsions you are advocating – so…virtue signalling fail #2.

    So according to you, you have a couple of choices according to your own parameters:
    1) Treat Muslims equally and thus live up to the principles you say you believe in as being morally superior.
    2) Expel Muslims and be morally inferior to their shariah according to the principles you said you uphold regarding minorities.

    Your choice, homie – but you are caught up in Popper’s Paradox as everyone seems to find themselves. It’s OK – you ain’t the first one.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @iffen
  195. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    Homosexuals are not known for their spontaneous self-combustion.

    Good point.

    there aren’t any Frenchmen left in Algeria.

    I agree – if the goal is to have zero possible crime ever committed by a Muslim in non-Muslim lands, then this is an airtight solution.

    So what do you consider Europe-born jihadists and other assailants to have been doing?

    Breaking the law, so go after them. But they do not have the support of most of the Muslim populace. In fact, if you read what Oliver Roy (one of the world’s foremost experts on extremism and radicalization) wrote in his analysis of 100 jihadi profiles:
    “Another common feature is the radicals’ distance from their immediate circle. They did not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam. None of them belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood, none of them had worked with a Muslim charity, none of them had taken part in proselytising activities, none of them were members of a Palestinian solidarity movement, and lastly, none of them, to my knowledge, took part in the rioting in French suburbs in 2005. They were not first radicalised by a religious movement before turning to terrorism…To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    This is different from the scenario I outline where the government says; we are no longer going to protect Muslims and it is open season on them. In that case, we go into defend-our-babies-in-Dar-ul-Harb mode.

    Doesn’t this just reinforce my point?

    As it does mine, don’t turn Muslim neighborhoods into defacto occupied territories by executive fiat when you have other legal options.

    Since we will need to seize control of the state apparatus anyway, if the easiest way is allow a grace period of 24 months or something similar to resolve all issues, complete with financial recompense for remaining non-liquidised assets and pensions, and if needed bribes and offers they can’t refuse to make up for the lower living standards in home countries, then that is fine by me.

    There you go; by the book, transparent and legal. Not much to ask for.

    I just don’t see why you see dhimmitude as particularly humane.

    More humane than expulsions.

    Even the current ‘tolerant’ policies has merely produced on the whole a deracinated and ailenated lumpenproletariat.

    Not my policies, get with those that made them. Bosinans have been Muslims for centuries and they aren’t half Egyptian or Arab. You can marry within your own group, many do out of cultural preference.

    Not oo long ago, I spoke to a Bosnian brother in my Sufi Order at a fundraiser. The subject came up about him trying to snag a husband for his young daughter. He said he is taking trips with her to Bosnia to his village of origin to find someone since they know the families and there are good pious men there – he’s not keen on too many of the Bosnian men he has seen around here. I asked him; well, there are also Albanians around here – so what about them? He said; yeah, but the culture is different as well as the language, and they couldn’t be confident about being able to do real good background check on the guy and his family. That’s fairly common among plenty of Muslims. Now, if someone prefers to marry into another culture, that’s fine too.

    Rootless cosmopolitanism erases all meaning and makes foreigners of us all.

    Agreed – seems to be a sign of post-Christian Europe frankly. I don’t know how it is going to be solved by expelling immigrants, but you guys do your thing; maybe that will give you purpose in life.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  196. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Everybody knows about our extremists (which I have denounced), do you denounce yours? These aren’t Muslims so what’s up?

  197. iffen says:
    @Talha

    those that did persecute and oppress non-Muslims under their care will answer to God for their crimes.

    Well, I’m sure that that makes all the dead and their loved ones feel much better. I’m all “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah” just thinking about it.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Nznz
  198. Talha says:
    @iffen

    It’s a better answer than; well it sucked to be you…

    I understand people don’t like what they see happening to non-Muslim minorities in certain parts of he world and in certain historic instances. Neither do I. If it wasn’t for my belief in eventual Divine justice, I would have likely left religion a long time ago.

    A couple of points; 1) neither have Muslims been the only ones to oppress people for religion, wealth or power nor 2) have they been the worst as a whole.

    Peace.

  199. @Talha

    Not my policies, get with those that made them. Bosinans have been Muslims for centuries and they aren’t half Egyptian or Arab. You can marry within your own group, many do out of cultural preference.

    Agreed – seems to be a sign of post-Christian Europe frankly. I don’t know how it is going to be solved by expelling immigrants, but you guys do your thing; maybe that will give you purpose in life.

    Are you being dense? This is what I am talking about:

    This circumstance, of not really being accepted in either country, is familiar to large numbers of French nationals of Algerian heritage, particularly from the second and third generations of emigrants.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/world/africa/france-algeria-immigration-discrimination-racism.html

    • Replies: @Talha
  200. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    Ah OK – then they have made their primary identity their ethnicity so it figures. If you have a spiritual identity as your primary, you learn not yo worry about this so much.

    I do feel badly for those guys that see themselves as some “other” in someone else’s homeland – it can be very alienating (dangerously so, if you read that article); some Chinese commentators around here mentioned this also…

    Peace.

  201. Nznz says: • Website
    @iffen

    What about the LGBT community?

    • Replies: @iffen
  202. Nznz says: • Website

    I though there were some research that came out that Turks were basically one fourth East Asian? How can anybody where claim they are white with such genetics?

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