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Turkey Extends Erdogan's Mandate
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So the results are in, and…

turkey-elections-2018-president

Erdogan wins 52.4%, winning the Presidency – a much more powerful position after the 2017 referendum – on the first round.

turkey-elections-2018-parliament

The AKP just failed to get a majority of seats, though it comfortable clears that level in coalition with the nationalist MHP.

Was there fraud? No hard statistical evidence of that, at least so far. But a couple of things that are suspicious at a glance: (1) Erdogan’s lead declined more slowly as the results came in than usual, e.g. YES during the 2017 referendum; (2) Erdogan now did better than all but 2 polls since May, whereas the polls were quite accurate (if highly dispersed) on the referendum.

Still, there can’t have been too much fraud, since the general electoral pattern of Turkey remained steady.

turkey-elections-2018-abroad

Abroad as at home: The more stupid (Anatolian immigrants) vote for Le Based Erdogan, while the cleverer vote for Ince (expats – students, professionals, etc.).

In this respect, Turkey is the same as the US (expats vote Clinton, rednecks – Trump), France (Macron/Le Pen), Russia (Prokhorov, Sobchak, etc./Putin), Czechia (liberals/Zeman), etc. It’s a truly universal pattern.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Elections, Turkey 
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  1. Talha says:

    This is good in a general sense. Especially now that Mahathir is back, they can start doing some substantial things internationally. People here should be should be encouraging a more religious and more prosperous Turkey.

    If you want to expel or incentivize your religious Muslim (especially Turkish) minorities to leave, those policies will be more palatable to Westerners if they are being sent to generally well-doing countries and not failed states or (even worse) war zones.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  2. LondonBob says:

    Don’t know the statistics but I would expect British expats are more likely to vote for the right.

    • Replies: @g2k
  3. Poisoned chalice. The corporate sector has binged heavily on USD denominated debt over the past 5 years. That credit overhang is going to put a severe damper on growth. Looking at the news out of Turkey, Erdogan is rather addicted to ego-boosting infrastructure projects (Kanal Istanbul, the New Airport, the new mosque on the Asian side of Istanbul, the new Bosphorus bridge, the new presidential palace in Ankara) and that never ends well.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Jason Liu
  4. Annatar says:

    Whatever criticisms one may have of Erdogan and one can have many, he is the first Turkish leader under which Turkey’s GDP per capita has broken through 30% of US levels where it was stuck for the entirety of the 20th century, estimates of Turkish GDP per capita in the 1925-1950 era place it at 30% of US levels, and post 1950 when we have solid GDP data, Turkey basically stagnated at 30% of US levels over the 1950-2000 period, since 2000 however Turkish GDP per capita has risen to around 45% of US levels.

    Obviously there were factors at work outside of Erdogan’s control, just as not all credit for what occurs in Russia can go to Putin but it would be an interesting topic to research, after stagnating at 30% of US GDP per capita throughout the 20th century, what changed in Turkey since 2000 which has allowed it to rise to around 45% of US GDP per capita. Was there some radical change in nutrition or education which resulted in phenotypic IQ matching genotypic IQ and hence raising relative GDP per capita.

    In the long run though, I think Turkey is inevitably going to lose parts of its south-eastern territory unless the Kurds undergo a sharp drop in fertility fairly soon.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  5. Talha says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Excellent points – these should not be financed by debt (especially mosques – built on usurious loans???!! yuck!!). But these look like projects that will have financial return on investment in time, no? (Minus maybe the palace and the mosque – unless the mosque eases up Friday prayer congestion in the city, then it might.)

    Also, time to melt down the Ataturk statues and sell them off.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  6. neutral says:

    I just want to know how Turks ended up in places such as South Africa and Japan? I can understand them voting for the SJW candidate in Japan, but how on earth could Turks in South Africa support the liberal Davos type.

  7. @neutral

    The Turks in those places are going to be international businesspeople, who tend to be liberals. (I know the Turkish business community is quite happy with Erdogan, but I think these tend to be the domestic construction moguls, etc., not the finance or tech types – as is typical everywhere).

  8. @neutral

    Is purple the SJW candidate? I thought it was Kurdish. Apparently there are Kurds in Japan.

  9. @Annatar

    The previous Turkish secularist governments went on a regular cycle of boom-and-bust spending and shovelling out government jobs to their voters. Inflation was thus usually crazy high in the post-WW2 era. The AK party was voted into power because their opposition had lost all credibility in managing the economy. Erdogan to his credit was keen to bring inflation under control and growth took off when it was, similar to how it did in the US and UK in the 80s thanks to anti-inflationary economic policy.

  10. @Talha

    Well, sure eventually. Even the dotcom boom in the late 90s resulted in useful infrastructure being built though that was likely not appreciated by the investors who were wiped out. Letting private debt rocket to that extent in that short a space of time is bound to cause severe pain in the short to medium term, it’s one of the most common features of recessions over the past few decades. Mustafa Kemal went too far in delegitimising religion but he was a genuine hero. Iranians and Saudis would probably be happy to take those statues if they were being offered.

    • Replies: @Talha
  11. If you want to expel or incentivize your religious Muslim (especially Turkish) minorities to leave, those policies will be more palatable to Westerners if they are being sent to generally well-doing countries and not failed states or (even worse) war zones.

    I agree to some extent, though a well-functioning state will also be a more of a geopolitical and military threat so there’s two sides to the coin here. OTOH, given the overt pro-Islamist bent of ‘Western’ foreign policy in the Middle East, I’m not sure there would be much practical difference. Also, Turkey has slowly diversified away from the US in the ME and that’s largely welcome as far as I am concerned.

    since 2000 however Turkish GDP per capita has risen to around 45% of US levels.

    I would be very cautious in taking Turkey’s GDP statistics at face value. Here’s is a long, but good, blogpost by one of Europe’s top Turkish economy experts.

    https://erikmeyersson.com/2017/01/22/is-new-turkeys-growth-model-from-outer-space/

    Even layman will understand most stuff if you give the piece the time and concentration it deserves. Nevertheless, since most people are lazy and/or innumerate, here are the two key graphs:

    It really underscores the extreme deviation that Turkey has had in the post-2009 period. Turkstat revised their GDP growth calculation in 2015, and that includes some backwards revision.

    Erdogan to his credit was keen to bring inflation under control

    Historically yes, but increasingly less so.

    One of the key experts on hyperinflation has estimated it to be closer to 40% right now:

    https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-inflation/turkish-inflation-40-percent-top-us-economist-says

    Hanke is no crackpot, he’s an Ivy League professor with many renowned papers to his name on hyperinflation, especially studying historical episodes and he is a very sought-after expert. This isn’t some Ron Paul crank.

    Onions and potatoes in Turkey increased by over 100% over the last year.

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-govt-to-allow-onion-potato-imports-as-prices-skyrocketing-133588

    This supports his view that inflation in Turkey is much higher than what is reported.

    In the long run though, I think Turkey is inevitably going to lose parts of its south-eastern territory unless the Kurds undergo a sharp drop in fertility fairly soon.

    It isn’t just the kurds anymore. Erdogan let in over 3.5 million Syrians. I’ve often pointed out to AK that religiosity has nothing at all to do with ‘basedness’ wrt immigration. Turkey is a very religious society, far more so than South Korea in terms of intensity, yet it is far more allowing of foreigners. It was the Islamists, not the seculars, who pushed this because Islam, like Christianity, is a race-blind religion and Erdogan’s primary lens in life is religious. For him, these are the Islamic equivalent of ‘muh religious conservative family values’ voters. Just as cuckservatives justified the hispanic invasion of the USA.

    Abrahamitic religions in general are cancer. IYI, the ultra-nationalist spinoff from MHP is also quite secular and they have been the most hardline on Syrians. CHP have also been stronger on the issue. AKP is only very belatedly changing their tune (mostly during the recent campaign)

    P.S. Not to stress you AK, but is the Romania post coming? Your travel diaries are very entertaining.

    P.P.S. it would be good to be able to reply to several people in the same comment using the same hyperlinked username interface that comes up when you reply to a single one. Can you talk to Unz about this?

  12. The turks in Bulgaria voted 25% for Erdogan and 60% for Indze.
    Which is good I guess, it re-confirms that at least the turks we have here are more of the European variety.

    They are not “expats”, not liberal and not high IQ but they are otherwise civilized people unlike the Anatolian goatfuckers who vote for Erdogan. I would even say they are conservative but in a good, ordinary way (i.e. teaching their children to be hardworking, loyal to family, to study hard at school – which to a large degree neutralizes the effect of their natural IQ being a bit lower than the Bulgarian one) and not in a “put my wife in a trash bag while I never shave” way.

  13. @Polish Perspective

    P.S. Not to stress you AK, but is the Romania post coming? Your travel diaries are very entertaining.

    I for one am a bit peeved you didn’t make an appearance in my post on Russian attitudes towards immigrants. I even called you out by name there! :)

    Romania post is coming, I have all the photos ready, but unfortunately I got a huge amount of (non-Unz, obv) work dumped on me. Will be very busy until Friday.

    P.P.S. it would be good to be able to reply to several people in the same comment using the same hyperlinked username interface that comes up when you reply to a single one. Can you talk to Unz about this?

    I will make a note of this, but my guess is that no, it won’t be possible.

    In default WordPress (or any “layers” over it, such as Jetpack or Disqus), comments work by replying to particular individuals, which creates nested threads.

    So far as I can see, the same structure is preserved at UR. It’s just that the visual form of this nesting is “flat” and strictly ordered by chronology.

    A tagging plugin separate from the core comments system should be possible, but Unz prefers everything to be “in house” to the maximum extent possible. Don’t know if he will want to take the time to create something like this – or even consider it worthwhile, since e.g. it won’t be easily exportable.

    • Replies: @tds
    , @Dmitry
  14. Talha says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    but he was a genuine hero

    On the battlefield, no doubt – very astute.

    Good points about certain long-term gains from short-term economic failures.

    take those statues if they were being offered.

    Statues always seemed to me to be the stupidest way to honor someone. Build a library or roadway or name a jet fighter after them or something:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khalid_tank

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altay_(tank)

    Peace.

  15. Mitleser says:

    Message from the parent organisation of the largest far right organization in Germany

  16. Talha says:
    @Polish Perspective

    well-functioning state will also be a more of a geopolitical and military threat so there’s two sides to the coin here

    I can see this, but I have not seen any sign of attitudes in the Muslim world regarding any military adventures of any sort into Europe. There is not a single Muslim scholar I think of that is against the current non-aggression international protocols (if you could read Arabic, I would suggest the writings of the late eminent Syrian scholar, Shaykh Wahba Zuhayli [ra]). We got our backsides handed to us pretty well over the last few centuries – other than the extremists, most Muslims just want the ability to defend their borders and airspace.

    Yes, some Muslims talk about the “demographic jihad”, but that is easily dealt with by not destroying the ME and sound border controls. And, again, incentivizing repatriation into Muslim lands – shutting off welfare to non-citizens is an easy one.

    For him, these are the Islamic equivalent of ‘muh religious conservative family values’ voters.

    That’s only part of it. Muslims generally have a very strong feeling of helping out other Muslims down on their luck. Ottomans took in many fleeing peoples from the Caucasus and from the Balkans as well as Muslims from Spanish expulsions. Muslim countries heavily host neighboring refugee Muslim populations:

    It certainly helps though if; 1) they share your worldview on social issues and 2) are not from huge cultural and geographic divides.

    Thanks for the economic insights.

    Peace.

  17. Talha says:

    I wonder if the name IYI was partially inspired by the very popular program ‘Ertugrul’ about the founding of the Ottoman Empire:

    Peace.

  18. Jason Liu says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Still better than any party that favors western style democracies.

  19. Jason Liu says:

    Overall a good thing, a win for the global right. Erdogan is not “too conservative”, he’s a vain but relatively pragmatic nationalist. Were it not for Kurds, his grip on power would be even stronger.

  20. @Talha

    Yes, some Muslims talk about the “demographic jihad”, but that is easily dealt with by not destroying the ME and sound border controls. And, again, incentivizing repatriation into Muslim lands – shutting off welfare to non-citizens is an easy one.

    Erdogan frequently makes statements about the Islamization of Europe, right in line with the general neo-Ottoman character of his foreign policy, e.g. he once said that “2071″ is his goal in relations with Europe, which is a reference to the battle of Manzikert. Demographic issues are a prominent theme for him (e.g. in 2017 he exhorted Turks in Europe to have five children each, so they’ll be the “future of Europe” – obviously such a birthrate is bound to remain fantasy, but it shows how he thinks). He’s also said that Turks in Europe should take on the citizenship of their host countries and seek to acquire prominent positions in politics and the economy – but never drop their Turkish and Islamic identity (assimilation would be a crime against humanity according to him). His goal clearly is to use Turks in Europe as a fifth column for the pursuit of Turkish interests (as understood by an Islamist like Erdogan) and keep them closely bound to Turkey via channels such as Turkey’s ministry of religious affairs and its offshoots in Europe (e.g. DITIB in Germany).
    The idea that Erdogan’s victory could be good for European interests is absurd, he’s clearly our enemy.

  21. Beckow says:
    @Talha

    to expel or incentivize your religious Muslim (especially Turkish) minorities to leave, those policies will be more palatable to Westerners if they are being sent to generally well-doing countries

    That’s a stretch. And Turkey has already been doing quite well. The problem is that many people today grow up in countries that are objectively harder to live in than most of the West. So they do what they can to get out and move to the West. Most are also from the middle or even upper classes in their home countries. Getting better doesn’t change that, actually probably more people will be in a position to move (it takes some minimum $ and logistics). Religion or even local politics are largely secondary, they only emerge once they move and face the reality of where they are and what it means. Some go nuts, but almost none go back.

    The combination of open global access and inevitable yearning to go where life is easier is destroying human civilisation in all its forms. There will not be a globalised, uniform human future. We will either descend to a lower level in the West, and that might restrict the migratory flood, or we will partition again with each group defending what it has. Most of the West is reaching the point when the second, preferable option, will not be physically viable.

    Prayer of any kind, religions and ‘peace’ are secondary, they are symptoms of the underlying mentality. The real problem is simple physics and geography: opening up connected vessels has consequences, they mix, things combine on a lower level. Try it in your garage, you will see what happens, mostly mud.

  22. Talha says:

    The idea that Erdogan’s victory could be good for European interests is absurd, he’s clearly our enemy.

    That’s all fine. So what’re you going to do about it?

    You want to go to war with the Turks? Go for it.

    I see way too much whining from too many Eruopeans. Look, he has an agenda, just ignore him. Muslims ignore Westerners all the time – you think we’re suddenly going to have PRIDE parades in Madinah because Merkel lectured us about her idea of human rights? Learn to tell people to piss off – that’s your first problem.

    Erdogan will keep on talking as he wants; people like him want to accomplish the demographic jihad. So what’s your plan?

    My plan is simple; leave the Turks alone and don’t interfere with their affairs and trade with them (don’t supply them with weapons – they can make their own). As they grow stronger and Turks in your lands remain Turkish in character, tell them that if they don’t assimilate by your specific prerequisites – since you guys have never figured out how to run a functioning millet system – that they are welcome to go back to Turkey. The German population will be more opposed to them staying if they act more and more belligerent. This will be much easier if they keep Turkish culture and language alive and if Turkey becomes a more prosperous place – many will want to go if they are religious and Turkey is religious and if Germany demands their girls wear miniskirts or that any imams leading prayers need to be openly gay.

    The solution is fairly simple – and you guys don’t have a sacred law to adhere to so there should be no moral compunctions. Yeah, you might be enabling a strong (heavily-militarized) centralized state apparatus that can strip away rights of citizens by fiat, but it won’t be the first time Germans have done that so…

    I simply don’t understand why one would be opposed to the ground being set for a future expulsion or repatriation if that’s your goal – it’s a gift, thank God for it.

    As I’ve pointed out before, Ukraine seems to have a mutually beneficial and respectful relationship with the Turks; you could learn from them.

    Peace.

  23. @Talha

    I see way too much whining from too many Eruopeans. Look, he has an agenda, just ignore him. Muslims ignore Westerners all the time – you think we’re suddenly going to have PRIDE parades in Madinah because Merkel lectured us about her idea of human rights? Learn to tell people to piss off – that’s your first problem

    You mean, like how Rhodesia and South Africa was about to just ignore the world and instantly get sanctioned to death?

    Please.

    • Replies: @Talha
  24. @Talha

    leave the Turks alone and don’t interfere with their affairs and trade with them

    Problem is, Turks aren’t leaving us alone and are interfering massively in our affairs.

    Yeah, you might be enabling a strong (heavily-militarized) centralized state apparatus that can strip away rights of citizens by fiat, but it won’t be the first time Germans have done that so…

    lol, sure, only a question of time until the swastika flag flies again and SA men are making Turks scrub the pavement with toothbrushes. Very realistic scenario.
    In reality it’s of course exceedingly unlikely that the majority of Turks in Europe will ever go back to Turkey.

    As I’ve pointed out before, Ukraine seems to have a mutually beneficial and respectful relationship with the Turks

    I hate to sound like the Russian nationalists around here, but the idea that one could learn anything from a country like Ukraine is pretty grotesque.
    Mutually beneficial relations…probably true for the Ukrainian pimps selling Ukrainian women to Turkish brothels.

    • Replies: @Talha
  25. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    OK – well then I see no solution; whine while you get taken over by increasingly religious Turks.

    Sounds like a plan.

    Peace.

  26. Mitleser says:
    @German_reader

    Erdogan’s demographic warfare

    “From here I say to my citizens, I say to my brothers and sisters in Europe… Educate your children at better schools, make sure your family live in better areas, drive in the best cars, live in the best houses,” said Erdogan.

    “Have five children, not three. You are Europe’s future.”

    “This is the best answer to the rudeness shown to you, the enmity, the wrongs,” he added in a televised speech in the city of Eskisehir, south of Istanbul.

    Some 2.5 million Turkish citizens resident in Europe are eligible to vote in elections in their homeland. But millions more people living in EU states have Turkish origins.

    Erdogan, a father of four, has previously urged women in Turkey to have at least three children to help boost the population, in comments denounced by women’s rights activists.

    https://www.samaa.tv/global/2017/03/have-5-kids-not-3-erdogan-tells-turks-in-europe/

    The idea that Erdogan’s victory could be good for European interests is absurd, he’s clearly our enemy.

    I disagree. Erdogan’s victory is good because it increases alienation between Germans and most Turks.

    Pray that the Erdogan party in Germany gets more votes, so that the Altparteien get less votes from Turks in Germany.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  27. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Turks aren’t leaving us alone and are interfering massively in our affairs.

    Your fault – I keep my doors bolted at night. Some guy crying outside my window that I’m mean because he wants to come in and bunk on my couch and I won’t let him, tends to be ignored. However, I will be super happy if his brother wins the lottery so I can tell him to go take his situation up with him.

    In reality it’s of course exceedingly unlikely that the majority of Turks in Europe will ever go back to Turkey.

    Well, there you go – I guess the only thing to do is complain.

    but the idea that one could learn anything from a country like Ukraine is pretty grotesque.

    OK – so they aren’t Germany, but they aren’t Peru or Madagascar either (no offense to either of those places, I’m sure the people are nice – just don’t know how they would be a good trading partner for Turkey). People here would say a relationship between Turkey and Germany only benefits the Turks since they don’t have much to offer materially. Again, I said the relationship seems to be mutually beneficial and respectful.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @German_reader
  28. @Mitleser

    I disagree. Erdogan’s victory is good because it increases alienation between Germans and most Turks.

    I understand that view, but what’s the end goal? Turks in Germany aren’t going to leave, it’s too late for that, so I’d prefer it if they didn’t become even more extreme in their views.
    Stoking resentment against Turks is also dangerous business given that reality. If there would be something like the arson attacks in the early 1990s or the NSU murders once again, it would also be catastrophic for German right-wingers, they would be blamed for it and the establishment would use it as a pretext to crack down hard on any dissent.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  29. Mitleser says:
    @Talha

    Turkey is already a good trade partner of Germany.
    Both are part of the EU-Turkey customs union.
    Turkey was 5th most important trade partner of Germany outside the European single market.

    https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesamtwirtschaftUmwelt/Aussenhandel/Tabellen/RangfolgeHandelspartner.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

    • Replies: @Talha
  30. Talha says:
    @Mitleser

    That’s all fine – I would posit that the Turks benefit more from the trade relationship than the Germans do (politics aside).

    Peace.

  31. @Talha

    Your fault – I keep my doors bolted at night.

    Revealing attitude…so it’s ok to exploit other people’s gullibility and generosity?
    And if we made life unpleasant for Turks like you seem to be suggesting…well, the idea that the Islamic world would just accept that, given its general attitude to perceived slights, is pretty bizarre.
    Anyway, I’m done talking to you, at least in this thread, because a) you’re uninformed about the situation in Europe, b) I’ve got better things to do than talk to Erdogan fanboys.

    • Replies: @Talha
  32. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Revealing attitude…so it’s ok to exploit other people’s gullibility and generosity?

    Of course not and they shouldn’t be taking advantage of German girls ether – but if they do, what are you going to do about it?

    I’m pointing out a systemic failure – that needs to be fixed. If you want to ignore it and say nothing’s broke, that’s fine too. You guys are too soft, that is a problem that needs to be remedied. Complaining about it only makes you coming out looking even softer – does not help the situation.

    the Islamic world would just accept that

    What choice would the Muslim world have if Germany told them to piss off? Boycott Germany? I’m sure you guys to find other people to sell things to.

    I’m done talking to you,

    Sure thing chief, you came calling to me…

    a) you’re uninformed about the situation in Europe,

    That’s why I learn from people here. Mostly of what pitfalls to avoid.

    b) I’ve got better things to do than talk to Erdogan fanboys.

    When you see one let me know – I’m talking about levels of how to gauge a given situation, recognize the hidden positives (if one has long term goals in mind) and use it to one’s advantage politically.

    Of course there is the millet route to isolate ethnic Turks in their own areas and just tax them.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @AaronB
  33. Mitleser says:
    @German_reader

    Many of the people with Turkish background are not loyal to Turkey/Islam for various reasons.
    They can be tolerated.

    The rest can be used to showcase where European tolerance fails and why such tolerance should be more limited.

    Stoking resentment against Turks is also dangerous business given that reality.

    Dangerous, but necessary.
    Fortunately, Erdogan is very unpopular in Germany which extends to Turks.

    The result is that even a FDP voter jokes about deporting Turks.

    Maybe Germany and other countries should have subtly threatened to begin deporting Turkish citizens if Erdoğan won the vote :drevil:

    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/48359622/

  34. @Talha

    What choice would the Muslim world have if Germany told them to piss off?

    Don’t pretend to be that dumb. Your co-religionists have a habit of getting enraged even over caricatures and in general have an absurd persecution complex even when there’s no basis in fact for that. If Germany actually really did start to persecute/expel Turks, there would undoubtedly be significant violence.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Beckow
  35. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    recognize the hidden positives (if one has long term goals in mind) and use it to one’s advantage politically.

    Umm, I think you’ve mistaken your blog, my good man. This is too complex for many people here. It makes their head hurt.

    Hidden positives? Sounds complicated. Erdogan hates Europe. He’s bad. Simple.

    Turning a seemingly bad situation to your long term political advantage? Is that Kabalah?

    Keep it simple. Keep it straight. Gene x codes for trait y. Stuff like that.

    That’s how you’ll reach them.

    :)

    • Replies: @Talha
  36. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    You are simply pathetic.

    • Troll: German_reader
    • Replies: @AaronB
  37. Talha says:

    our co-religionists have a habit of getting enraged even over caricatures

    Yeah, we still have the idea of that which is sacrosanct.

    If they didn’t get upset about it, I’d be very worried. Doesn’t give them the right to break the law though.

    If Germany actually really did start to persecute/expel Turks, there would undoubtedly be significant violence.

    There’s no need to go postal on them otherwise they will react. Look, I’m not suggesting kicking in doors and dragging old women out in cattle cars. Turks as Muslims should abide by the laws of the land – I’m simply talking about changing the laws, slowly over time to turn up the pressure. Switzerland banned construction of new minarets – Muslims complained about it for a bit then…meh.

    Or at least legally cut off the ability for foreign institutions to influence the Turks you have in Germany. Or, as I’ve mentioned before, changing laws so that Muslims aren’t allowed in echelons of power. You guys have yourselves in a judo hold that only you can unlock.

    I DO NOT suggest unilaterally breaking the social contract with Muslims in their host countries by acting outside the legal framework – it is a really stupid thing to do. The social contract (whether citizenship, visa or other agreement) is a two way road – it protects us from you and you from us.

    I’m partially with you guys – if Turks move to Germany they should absolutely integrate (not assimilate). That starts with adoption of the new country in good faith. I don’t own a single Pakistani flag nor do I attend any of the Pakistani Independence Day nonsense that happens around here. If you leave a country to adopt a host country, you need to be a good, beneficial citizen that feels a sense of belonging to the host country (along with its wholesome and good cultural and historical aspects) – you should not be acting like a foreign invasion force. There was a legitimate time for that (and it was done right with spears and shields), but that’s all over with.

    If Turks in Germany feel so attached to Turkey that they vote for its leader, then they should go back and face living under the consequences of their votes.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  38. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    I’m surprised you had the courage to peek your head out from the bushes you’re hiding in to call me troll, GR :)

    Aren’t you afraid I might turn violent?

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @German_reader
  39. Mitleser says:
    @AaronB

    The Imperial Truth protects against Believers. ;)

    • Replies: @AaronB
  40. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    You know, I get amazed at times that people from fairly complex societies can’t see a road map for where they’d like to be decades down the line. I get that from other societies, but it amazes me from the West.

    A lot of it has to do with acting locally and not worrying about stuff that is far too complex that you can’t change. For instance, I run a Muslim youth group for boys in our area. We instill them with a connection to each other and the tradition (they know and respect the local scholars in our area). We take them out for fun stuff and teach them along the way. Our next outing is planned to find a place to learn from someone that teaches this kind of thing:

    Along with a scholar talking about the spiritual aspects of our martial tradition and me giving a presentation on the expansions of the Rashidun Caliphate from its various angles.

    But this requires dedication of time and resources, willing to give up your weekends and invest in a future generation. Not seeing any change within your lifetime, but planning for change a few generations down the line. It assumes of course, you are planning for generations in the first place…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @LatW
  41. @Talha

    That starts with adoption of the new country in good faith. I don’t own a single Pakistani flag nor do I attend any of the Pakistani Independence Day nonsense that happens around here.

    No offense, but to me you actually come across like a horrifying failure of “integration”. Sure, you’re probably a law-abiding and economically productive citizen, but mentally and culturally you could just as well live in Pakistan or some other Islamic country. All you ever talk about is your religion, what your scholars think and what some Arabs did back in the early days of Islam. I can’t recall ever having you seen writing in even remotely the same spirit about the American founding fathers or any other figure from US history (not even the politically correct ones promoted today)…clearly irrelevant to you compared to Islamic history. Nor do you seem to care much about the US constitution and the liberties it guarantees (at least I don’t see how that could be reconciled with your view of some Islam-based system of government as ideal, or your frequent positive statements about the Ottoman empire). You live in the US, are a citizen and may take part in some superficial aspects of American culture like certain sports, but on a more profound level your world view is absolutely alien. On an individual level that may be tolerated, but in great numbers it’s clearly a problem that leads to a decay of civic spirit, increasing fragmentation of society and possibly conflict.

    • Agree: Guillaume Tell
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Talha
    , @Daniel Chieh
  42. Dmitry says:

    It’s definitely something unfortunate – for the civilized and highly educated Turkish people which still exist in large numbers – what has happened on the religious and social level under this government in Turkey.

    This was previously (I believe during the 1990s) considered a secularizing state, which was trying to navigate a path to modernity.

    When looking at this “wrong turning in the road” in Turkey, countries like Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan must recognized and feel gratitude for how ultimately lucky they were (despite a justified anger about unfortunate events like “Black January” in Azerbaijan, and otherwise poor in many ways leadership), on a cultural development level, to have been been modernized already in the Russian Empire and Soviet Union.

    • Agree: Hyperborean
    • Replies: @German_reader
  43. AaronB says:
    @Mitleser

    The Imperial Truth does not hide under bushes afraid of expelling Muslims because they might turn violent.

    More like the Last Man.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  44. @AaronB

    Aren’t you afraid I might turn violent?

    You’re just an annoying internet troll who writes too many low-value comments.
    There’s also a crucial difference between “being afraid” of violence and wishing to avoid it, if possible…but I guess that distinction is too much for a primitivist like you to understand.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  45. Mitleser says:
    @German_reader

    Talha seems be to be integrated, but not assimilated.

    On an individual level that may be tolerated, but in great numbers it’s clearly a problem that leads to a decay of civic spirit, increasing fragmentation of society and possibly conflict.

    True, but I can’t say I would not like to see happening in the modern USA.
    It is too big, too dominant.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  46. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I

    get that from other societies, but it amazes me from the West.

    The West is no longer the West.

    Today’s Europeans are no more the Europeans of the 19th century than today’s Greeks are the ancient Athenians.

    They are literally a different people. Not just morally, but intellectually. They are stupider.

    Its funny, because people talk of replacing Europeans through immigration. But Europeans have already been replaced. The white-skinned people who today inhabit Europe are a different people. A new people.

    The best way to see them is as modem Italians to Romans, or modern Greeks to ancient Greeks. There is some connection, but they are essentially a new people.

    Reading a Victorian novel means reading about a people that no longer exists, an extinct people.

    If that’s true, then its cruel to hold them to the standards of the white-skinned people who used to inhabit Europe. They simply are a different people.

    • Replies: @Talha
  47. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    No offense, but to me you actually come across like a horrifying failure of “integration”.

    Nope – I’m totally integrated. I know more about American history than any average American on the street anytime – I definitely know more about american history than that of Pakistan.

    I’m a failure of assimilation though. We don’t assimilate.

    but mentally and culturally you could just as well live in Pakistan or some other Islamic country

    Mentally yes, culturally, it would be a struggle. I shudder to think about driving on the same roads as many of my coreligionists. They seem to not see marked lines.

    Nor do you seem to care much about the US constitution and the liberties it guarantees

    On the contrary, I have written often of how impressed I am at the Anglo-Saxon legal tradition and how I feel a beneficiary of such. I’ve written things like this before:
    “I have a great respect for Anglo-Saxon legal heritage. I think it is a marvel honestly especially the transparency and accountability it has tried to bring to government. Call me a Romantic – but, I am impressed by the men, the likes of who I quoted, that had a deep conviction in their vision for a society based on their principles and institutions.”

    It is a brilliant system; legal separation of powers, federal vs state, etc. Excellent stuff.

    But I don’t consider it to be perfect. Historically, Americans never did either – they’ve been tampering with the Constitution since the beginning. It has evolved – again, brilliantly – with the outlook of the larger society. And it may yet evolve further.

    clearly irrelevant to you compared to Islamic history

    No, it’s very relevant, we can have a discussion about my favorite historical Americans if you like, starting with Thoreau. Move onto men like Jefferson (yeah he’s popular, for good reason). When has the discussion naturally moved to this subject though?

    on a more profound level your world view is absolutely alien

    Sure, very alien to many current-day Americans. Less so for earlier generations.

    but in great numbers it’s clearly a problem that leads to a decay of civic spirit, increasing fragmentation of society and possibly conflict.

    Possibly, I guess we’ll see if we can make it take another route.

    Peace.

  48. @Dmitry

    countries like Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan must recognized

    iirc AK is pessimistic though about Kazakhstan at least and thinks it will re-Islamify (hope I haven’t confused it with some other -stan).
    I agree with you about the general issue, but one probably also has to recognize that Kemalism was always resented and rejected by very large segments of Turkey’s population.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  49. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    The West is no longer the West.

    I agree, I don’t think they would be recognizable to their own ancestors a couple of hundred years ago. My wife’s grandparents were married in one of those beautiful Scandinavian churches. Her relatives tell me that marriage in a church is not a thing anymore, you just kind of legally fall into the situation due to living situations and circumstance.

    Strange, but their choice.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  50. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    I am sorry, I was confused by your name – I thought you belonged to the race of white-skinned people that used to inhabit the continent of Europe, who were famous for complex thinking as well as virility.

    But nature in her infinite fecundity has caused a new white-skinned people to emerge from the Nothingness, who now inhabit the geographical space known as Europe.

    It is cruel to judge you by the same standards.

    • Replies: @LatW
  51. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    …there would undoubtedly be significant violence

    True, but this is exactly why the Western elites are paralyzed. They have created this situation and now they are afraid of what the inevitable consequences are of what they did. So they hide and delay.

    There is a story about a guy who used to take an office elevator every day. And every day a fellow got on and pushed him violently to the corner. After it happened few times, the other people riding with him asked: ‘aren’t you going to do something about it?’ His response was: ‘why should I, he is the one doing it, he is the one with the problem‘. We only get to keep, what we are willing to defend.

  52. LatW says:
    @Talha

    We take them out for fun stuff and teach them along the way.

    Interesting. How often do the boys meet and are they roughly the same or different ages? Are you the only older guy or are there others?

    • Replies: @Talha
  53. tds says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    For the love of god, somebody somehow make it possible to read unz comments in a nested form, e.g. reddit.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  54. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Its too bad, but so it goes.

    An interesting thing is that people here seem to get most upset when you offer solutions. That’s when people got most upset at me.

    Its like they are addicted to despair. I understand now why despair is a sin in Christianity. It’s something you can easily fall into and not climb out of.

    Also solutions require effort and action, and they don’t have the energy for that. And are afraid of risk.

    A total cultural clustrfuck.

    • Replies: @Talha
  55. LatW says:
    @AaronB

    And how is that his fault? He’s already a right winger so why pick on him? European men would have no problem becoming violent, if needed. The problem is the social schizophrenia. You allude to the time when the society was more or less uniform in what is right, whereas today Europeans are nudged by people like you to be violent, yet expected to be more civilized than others by the so called international community. Nor do they wish open violence. And, yes, there is nothing wrong with wanting to resolve these issues peacefully, but as we’ve seen neither the minorities nor their antifa and UMC supporters are willing to settle peacefully.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  56. Talha says:
    @LatW

    Well, most of the boys attend (with their families) our weekly spiritual gatherings where there is a talk by one of the local shaykhs in our Sufi order followed by group dhikr (kind of like this, but ours is less vocal and more internal):

    We meet on a monthly basis for now for the outings (rock climbing, archery, fishing, etc. – young men’s stuff) – hoping to increase it to twice a month.

    The boys range from 10-18 and we usually divide them into groups of closer age ranges.

    I’m 42 so I’m still considered young. There is another younger brother that helps me and some of the fathers come along too. Fairly diverse group; Indo-pak, Arab, Bosnian, etc.

    I would suggest people do the same for young Whites if they want to revive a culture among Whites that is proud of their heritage and forward looking. You don’t have to make it public, just among similar-minded families in your locale. Take out the time to invest in your future generations if you feel it is important. The time for video games is over.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @LatW
  57. @German_reader

    I think its likely that as their Soviet-era leaders/boomers die off, the Central Asian countries with become more Islamic and more nationalist, with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan tilting more towards the Islamic, and Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan tilting more towards the nationalist.

  58. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Despair is haraam. In fact, one of the scholars mentioned it is the penultimate sin.

    “Certainly no one despairs of Allah’s Mercy, except the people who disbelieve.” (12:87)

    Peace.

  59. Dmitry says:

    AaronB could probably become a successful anthropologist. But he needs a much stricter PhD supervisor that tells him things like “don’t smoke weed when writing your papers” and “stop writing crazy shit”.

    Also university authorities will not be happy about his passion to insult other international students on the course, as, for example, when he was heard telling the polite German visiting student from Heidelberg that “decline of Western civilization will find its ultimate expression when your fiance is raped by Kumyk tribesmen”.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  60. LatW says:
    @Talha

    It is being done for whites, too, the reason I’m asking is because I will soon be looking for such an all male group and just wanted to see how others do it. Thanks for the insight.

    • Replies: @Talha
  61. Talha says:
    @LatW

    No problem – glad I could be of assistance.

    One suggestion I would make is to add some sort of a spiritual aspect to it – very necessary in my experience to help with the bonds of brotherhood.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @LatW
  62. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Lol, you had me until you said I can’t write while high and can’t insult the other international students :)

    Those are literally my favourite things.

  63. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Would it be possible also maybe to ask about adding avatars (in the top right of our posts there is space?).

    It would also be cool if when we edit posts it doesn’t change to “awaiting moderation” (I always delete my posts and re-add them about five times each – although I guess that is good for post count).

    And as final question, maybe we could have a 10 minute (instead of 5 minute) limit to edit the posts (it would improve the quality of English here a lot)?

    AK: Okay, will raise these and PP’s points whenever we next exchange emails.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  64. AaronB says:
    @LatW

    Well, I just think his general attitude is weak and sucks. He’s not the right kind of right winger – lacks passion, daring, imagination, and resolve. He’s a “practical” right winger. He’s seems depressed and constantly counsels despair.

    Which is OK, but we need New Men. GR should gracefully retire to the sidelines and not spread his gloom, if he can’t find it on himself to man up. Or at least support those with more resolve than him.

    I’m also against violence unless necessary – but to be against expelling Muslims out of fear they will turn violent seems pathetic to me. GR’s attitude was just fear.

    Of course, it should be done humanely and compassionately – I am not Vox Day – but fear of Muslims turning violent is totally irrelevant. That’s not even a factor. Fear should never be a factor.

    Judgement, wisdom, strategy, moral considerations – sure. But pusillanimity no. Its the kind of “practical ” small mindedness of materialistic people.

    GR dislikes Muslims but is afraid of provoking them. I sincerely like and appreciate Muslims and am not afraid of expelling them if necessary.

    Isn’t there something wrong here?

  65. @Mitleser

    It is too big, too dominant.

    STATE DEPARTMENT —
    A senior State Department official has told reporters the United States expects companies all over the world to cut their crude oil imports from Iran to zero by November 4 or face U.S. sanctions.

    The State Department official said he had been meeting with European diplomats to convey the message that the Trump administration is serious about enforcing new sanctions on trade with Iran since President Donald Trump withdrew the U.S. from the Iran nuclear deal in May.

    Asked about what kind of reaction he has been getting from European allies, who remain part of the Iran nuclear deal, the official said, “I am continually struck by the amount of business that is falling out of Iran. [French automaker] Peugeot and others simply view Iran as too risky a place to do business.”

    The State Department official said now is the time for the companies to stop buying Iranian oil.

  66. LatW says:
    @Talha

    It’s there in some cases. It’s important, I agree.

  67. @AaronB

    The Imperial Truth often is about despair, to be honest. Its badass in spite of that, or even because of that.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  68. @tds

    No, His Excellency Unz has the divine right to rule unlike the fiendish Chairwoman Pao.

  69. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    That’s like the despair of Greek tragedy or a Japanese samurai facing certain death.

    He will die, but there is a Vision, however grim, however dark. However grimdark.

    Even the despair of Boromir as he lays dying is not the empty despair of the materialist.

    Very cool tho :)

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  70. @AaronB

    All of the best stories speak to something primal within us.

    But I do think that GR is doing the best he can, within the limited means that there are. Its a tough position to play from.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  71. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, the best stories go beyond the conscious mind.

    I don’t really dislike GR on a personal level, I just think his attitude is what’s wrong with the Right and why it failed. His attitude is what made high quality people turn to the Left for inspiration.

    I don’t think he’s s bad guy or anything, but I can’t help but fight by his attitude. I apologize if I’m too harsh doing it, though, but really it’s all in good fun and just tough and tumble.

  72. @Dmitry

    You can collect your suggestions and deposit them here.

  73. @Talha

    That’s only part of it. Muslims generally have a very strong feeling of helping out other Muslims down on their luck. Ottomans took in many fleeing peoples from the Caucasus and from the Balkans as well as Muslims from Spanish expulsions. Muslim countries heavily host neighboring refugee Muslim populations

    Which is part of the problem, Erdogan thinks with an Ottoman mindset not a Turkish mindset.

    The more Erdogan imports people from the rest of the Middle East and continues his Islamisation efforts the more Turkey loses its uniqueness and becomes merely another dysfunctional Arab slush country.

    Generally speaking the stronger the saracenic element in a country the more it loses its heterogeneity.

    As shown by how even despite you being a Pakistani you appear more like an Arab.

    While I can’t expect you as a Muslim not to be happy about it, I don’t really draw any joy in it.

    • Replies: @Talha
  74. Annatar says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Thanks for the article, I have seen a few articles here and there that suggest Turkish growth data is being fudged by the Turks, to be honest I have been suspicious as well as to how a country with a GDP per capita of over $25,000 can be growing by 7%, India is another nation whose GDP growth data since about 2012 has been called into question, in 2015-2016, virtually no growth in industrial production yet the economy supposedly grew by over 7%.

  75. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    Which is part of the problem, Erdogan thinks with an Ottoman mindset not a Turkish mindset.

    The Turkish mindset is the problem – Turkish ethno-nationalism led to massive purges and oppression of non-Turkish peoples of Anatolia. Turkey has an identity problem, that region was never purely Turkish. It should be more accurately be renamed the Republic of Anatolia. This way all those people who have a historical identity to that land can live there without cognitive dissonance.

    The more Erdogan imports people from the rest of the Middle East

    Let’s not inflate the problem. They have given refuge to destitute Syrians, they are hardly bringing them all in as citizens. I personally know the head of one of the largest Muslim relief organizations on the planet; they have established camps in Syria and there is no intention as of now to do anything other than provide them a safe haven until the country is safe to return to. This is kind of place where they are being housed:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Ceylanp%C4%B1nar+tent+camp&rlz=1C1RUCY_enUS775US775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw-fmz_PLbAhUOCawKHSFTDgQQ_AUICygC&biw=1517&bih=735

    Furthermore, even if Turkey was to absorb even half of all its Syrian refugees, they wouldn’t make a huge dent demographics. As you can see, Lebanon and Jordan have taken in far more per capita:

    As shown by how even despite you being a Pakistani you appear more like an Arab.

    This is opinion being posited as fact and one which is difficult to take because, frankly, most Westerners don’t know much in regards to the nuances within various local cultures around the Muslim world (nor are expected to). First off, I am culturally more American than anything else – a fact my relatives will remind me of whenever I visit Pakistan. Second, I have an Arab pedigree going way back since I am descended from the Prophetic household. But that’s been mixed in with Persian, Turkic, Hindustani and even a bit of Nubian for a long time.

    But, I don’t know of any religious-leaning Pakistanis (except the Salafi minded) that have some kind of inferiority complex vis-a-vis Arabs. We are quite comfortable in our own skin. This is how Mufti Rafi Usmani (one of the greatest living masters of the Hanafi school and former Grand Mufti of Pakistan) normally dresses – it is local Pakistani culture to the core:

    Pakistanis (also depends on Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Pashtuns, even increasing Kalash etc.) have their own unique language, culture, customs, poetry, food that is all distinct from Arabs. Even our religious and spiritual lineage comes winding through the great masters of Persia and Central Asia (Khwajagan y’all!). We share the same religion and thus many of the same core rules apply, but the cultural expression is all different. In fact, I would say the cultural expression across the Muslim world is far more diverse than in the West which is slowly giving way to globo-monoculture.

    Just take a look at any average wedding in France, Britain, Italy, Sweden – it all looks pretty much the same (it’s even creeping into Eastern Europe). Like, why would a Brit wear a suit made in Italy for his wedding??!! So weird! If you go into Pakistan, you can tell a Balochi wedding apart from a Sindhi one immediately if you see the groom.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  76. As a Russian, I’m impressed and even somewhat jealous by how competitive Turkish politics are. Very unusual for an Asian country.

    When the main opposition candidate is polling at 30% and drawing million-strong rallies, despite Erdogan’s crackdowns, despite the fact that all major media in the country are controlled by Erdogan and his cronies, this is very impressive indeed.

  77. @Talha

    The Turkish mindset is the problem – Turkish ethno-nationalism led to massive purges and oppression of non-Turkish peoples of Anatolia.

    In my opinion, the problem is that Turkey is based on the borders of Lausanne instead of Sèvres. If the population transfers had been based on the borders of the treaty of Sèvres then there would be no problem.

    [T]here is no intention as of now to do anything other than provide them a safe haven until the country is safe to return to.

    The Turkish government seems to be saying a bit more than that. But even if that were all they were doing that how many are going to return a country where they have nothing left and the government considers them to be traitors? After spending years in Turkey most likely they will stay there indefinitely.

    If the purpose is to repatriate them to a safe area then they already control the North-West Syrian Occupation Zone, unless the Turks doubt they can hold on to it in the long-term?

    Furthermore, even if Turkey was to absorb even half of all its Syrian refugees, they wouldn’t make a huge dent demographics.

    The Syrian population in Turkey is over 3.5 million and half of that would be 1.75 million.

    Considering that Turkey is probably less than 70% ethnic Turkish at this point and that the birthrates do not favour the Turks it is not such a small amount.

    As you can see, Lebanon and Jordan have taken in far more per capita:

    For Lebanon, unless the purpose is to shift the demography of the country into a Sunni country then it is insane, no Shiite or Christian Lebanese should accept this.

    For Jordan, they are less different ethnically, being a Sunni Arab country so even though it causes problems it is less problematic from a ethno-religious perspective.

    This is opinion being posited as fact

    I did not mean to say it with absolute certainty, which is why I said appears rather than are. I was trying to indicate that this was just my opinion.

    First off, I am culturally more American than anything else – a fact my relatives will remind me of whenever I visit Pakistan.

    I do not know how you act in real life so my perceptions may be distorted, but from how you appear on this message board it does not come naturally for me to think of you as ‘Talha the Muslim-American commenter’ in the same way as I think of say Dimitry as ‘Dimitry the Russian-Jewish commenter’.

    It seems like a lot of the scholars and doctrine you cite are from (ethnic) Arabs and given how it seems like a significant amount of your actions and thoughts and opinions are shaped by this doctrine it seems natural to think this.

    Second, I have an Arab pedigree going way back since I am descended from the Prophetic household. But that’s been mixed in with Persian, Turkic, Hindustani and even a bit of Nubian for a long time.

    I am confused by this point. A lot of people have some partial distant ancestry from other places yet they usually act like people in the country where they live.

    But, I don’t know of any religious-leaning Pakistanis (except the Salafi minded) that have some kind of inferiority complex vis-a-vis Arabs.

    I don’t know about Pakistan, but in other countries Salafists are definitely part of the religious milleu, so excluding them seems somewhat evasive.

    There are a lot of people on the Internet that definitely give off the impression of being wholly Pakistani and nothing else, but nevertheless the mixture of Arab-Perso-Turkic culture has influenced Pakistan significantly and made it less distinct and much more similar to the countries to the west of Pakistan and in my opinion made it lose part of the distinctiveness that the pre-Islamic culture had.

    Pakistanis (also depends on Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Pashtuns, even increasing Kalash etc.) have their own unique language, culture, customs, poetry, food that is all distinct from Arabs. Even our religious and spiritual lineage comes winding through the great masters of Persia and Central Asia (Khwajagan y’all!).

    Consider my statement like a spectrum rather than a binary option, and consider the situation globally than rather than Pakistan. When a muslim country becomes secular does it become more or less distinct culturally?

    We share the same religion and thus many of the same core rules apply, but the cultural expression is all different.

    But do not the ‘core rules’ shape culture to a significant extent, especially in a such rules-based religion?

    In fact, I would say the cultural expression across the Muslim world is far more diverse than in the West which is slowly giving way to globo-monoculture.

    Don’t worry, the Saudis are working on it.

    • Replies: @Talha
  78. g2k says:
    @LondonBob

    Well spend 5 minutes waking around harringey green lanes; it’s the only place in the UK I’ve been to where lower back tribal tattoos on women are still fashionable. They’re not going to be voting for Erdogan lol.

  79. g2k says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Why is this exceptional. India and Pakistan have competitive elections, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. There’s certainly the phenomena of extreme kleptocracy, patronage networks and clans and dynasties, but they’re still democratic.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  80. Medvedev says:
    @German_reader

    Erdogan is better watch out his own back. Kurds have fertility rate of 3.5-4 children per woman, Turks (excluding Kurds) have less than 2 children per woman.

  81. I fully support a spiritual revival of Europe. I think it won’t be Christianity, at least not at first. My first instinct is to have a human sacrificing religion. I’d start out with sacrificing AaronB for the Sun God. That way we could make sure that our spirits get filled with the warmth of the Sun. It’d be wholly spiritual.

    Then later on we can move on to Christianity or anything else we like, but it’d be a great spiritual experience.

  82. @g2k

    Many of these countries are highly “balkanized” societies, where election simply means having representatives of your tribe/religious group appointed to parliament. These are not true elections, and this is not politics in the Western sense of the word, as in “marketplace of ideas”.

    Where Asian country is more or less homogeneous, they tend to coalesce around a single dominant figure or a party/institution, which then rules the country as a de-facto dictator. The Sunni Prime minister of Lebanon is not a dictator only insofar as he has to share power with representatives of other tribes.

    It that respect the existence of strong non-Kurdish opposition to Erdogan is quite remarkable. I can’t think of any other country in Asia with a similarly competitive political culture.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Ali Choudhury
  83. @Felix Keverich

    Well, there’s South Korea. India is a country (?) I don’t understand, but at least there tend to be competitive elections.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  84. @reiner Tor

    How much do you know about South Korea, reiner Tor? I know that SK like Japan is a US protectorate, its constitution was written for them by the Americans. Consequently it has all the formal trappings of a liberal democracy, including a multi-party system, but how much in the way of substance?

    You just never hear any political news out of South Korea, which to me is kinda suspicious.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  85. @Felix Keverich

    I know that they have extremely tough battles between protesters (like students protesting this or that or farmers protesting against a cut in subventions or something) and riot police. They normally have two political parties, one is rooted in the political forces supporting the military dictatorships, and the other one rooted in its democratic liberal opposition. The former is extremely hostile to North Korea, while the latter is supporting some kind of detente with the Norks. The current president is from this group, supporting detente.

    So there is at least one important question (relations to North Korea) where the two are diametrically opposed to each other, and people’s votes have an effect, because the government changes frequently, almost with each election.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  86. Mitleser says:
    @Felix Keverich

    The Turkish opposition has failed too many times.
    This was their last chance.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  87. @Felix Keverich

    To a degree. At least in Pakistan the competing parties appeal to the electorate on the basis that they will do a better job of running the country. There are enough swing voters that opposition parties can win power if the incumbents have done a bad job. Like Iran, it is not a true democracy because the Deep State runs the country regardless of who is in power. Erdogan did a good job in crushing the Turkish one.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  88. @Mitleser

    What do you mean? There are millions of Turks, who do not share Erdogan’s vision. They have a very good chance to outlast his presidency. It’s not like Russia, where we had 0,5% of Moscow’s population protesting for a month, and then they fell into a funk, and started talking about emigration (see “Camembert aliyah”).

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  89. Mitleser says:
    @reiner Tor

    They normally have two political parties, one is rooted in the political forces supporting the military dictatorships, and the other one rooted in its democratic liberal opposition.

    The former are the conservative, pro-Americans, the latter liberal pro-Koreans.

    The former is extremely hostile to North Korea

    They are pro-status quo. The other side is more willing to realize Reunification by force.
    Note what these peaceniks want to do to their military.

    The National Defense Reforms 2.0 proposed by the current South Korean government got some concrete information with the recent announcement in the article:

    Ministry of Defense wants to request 50 trillion won next year for defense spending, up from 43 trillion won right now, but final amount is still undetermined since the National Assembly and Ministry of Strategy & Finance are likely to significantly cut down on the budget proposal

    Gov. plans to retrieve the wartime operational control by 2023

    Gov. wants the KAMD (anti missile defense), Kill Chain (targets ballistic missiles & WMD facilities), and KMPR (decapitation plan against North Korea) finished by 2023 as well

    Gov. is proposing the National Defense Reform 2.0 early in the current administration to avoid cancellation/delays/cuts in the future administrations

    Defense Minister Song wants to spend more on military development – wants 36% of the budget spent on military development & 64% on maintaining operational capability (current allocation is 30% for military development, 70% for maintaining operational capability)

    The proposal plans to reduce the number of generals and soldiers to save 10.4 trillion KRW (~$10 billion)

    Minister Song wants to raise spending for the reserve corps by 5%

    https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/8ivdzx/government_wants_to_raise_defense_spending_to_50/dyuuvaz

  90. Mitleser says:
    @Felix Keverich

    There were millions of Russians who did not share Yeltsin’s vision.
    But that was not enough.
    It is the same in Turkey.
    They failed to end the AKP government.
    They failed to stop the transformation of Turkey into a presidential republic.
    They failed to prevent Erdogan re-election.
    They even failed to prevent a pro-government majority in the new parliament or just forcing Erdogan into a second round.

    Ince, the main opponent of Erdogan seems to be have been intimidated into surrender.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  91. @German_reader

    How are Turkish interests inimical to European interests? It is not a military or economic threat, does not export jihadists and has been a stable buffer against the chaos in the Middle East. Migrant crossings from Turkey into Europe have dropped considerably since the EU-Turkey deal while Erdogan’s willingness to host Syrian refugee camps mean there are not 3.5m more Syrians looking to move west into safer territory. That is probably why Orban was the first (and I think only) EU political leader to congratulate his election victory.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  92. @Mitleser

    There were millions of Russians who did not share Yeltsin’s vision.
    But that was not enough.
    It is the same in Turkey.

    Dissaffection with Yeltsin was mostly a product of severe economic depression. It disappeared when the economy started growing. Erdogan has close to half the country opposed to him in the midst of economic boom – feel the difference.

    Turkish opposition isn’t going anywhere. These secular, pro-Western Turks, who voted for Ince will not become Islamists overnight.

  93. @Ali Choudhury

    It is not a military or economic threat, does not export jihadists

    Erdogan is doing a lot of dubious pro-Jihadi stuff in northern Syria. And his general attitude towards Europe is very hostile, I find his glorification of the Ottoman past and his frequent talk about the Islamization of Europe quite unnerving. Even if it’s just rhetoric, the man just isn’t trustworthy imo.
    There are also credible reports that his people are threatening and intimidating critics of Erdogan in European countries. And as I wrote above he definitely intends to use his rather unhinged fans among Turks in Europe as a pressure group/fifth column for Turkish interests.
    Maybe it might still be possible to do business with Erdogan, but there are many reasons to be wary of the man and his party imo.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  94. @Ali Choudhury

    Erdogan did a good job in crushing the Turkish one.

    He didn’t really crush it, more like he took it over and re-purposed it for his own movement imo.

  95. Mitleser says:

    Dissaffection with Yeltsin was mostly a product of severe economic depression. It disappeared when the economy started growing. Erdogan has close to half the country opposed to him in the midst of economic boom – feel the difference.

    What economic boom?

    Much to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s chagrin, economic woes have been a dominant issue ahead of Turkey’s June 24 presidential and parliamentary polls, with both economic actors and ordinary Turks stuck between a plummeting Turkish lira and rising interest rates.

    To stop the slump of the lira, the central bank has twice raised interest rates since May, when the price of the dollar shot up to a historic high of more than 4.9 liras. Despite the two rate hikes — 4.5 percentage points in total — the dollar’s price remains above 4.7 liras, keeping the central bank under pressure for further action.

    It is still unclear how effective the hikes have been in curbing the flight from the Turkish lira, but Erdogan continues to urge citizens who keep hard-currency savings “under the pillow” to return to the lira. Amid the currency’s dramatic depreciation — about 20% since the beginning of the year — many Turks have turned to hard currency to preserve the value of their savings.

    https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/06/turkey-turks-keep-billions-under-the-pillow.html

    Turkish opposition isn’t going anywhere. These secular, pro-Western Turks, who voted for Ince will not become Islamists overnight.

    Supporters of the Turkish opposition will be marginalized and leave the country.

    Three of my mail groups, all of which consist of men and women between the ages 40 and 60, sent the same message in the last few days: An email allegedly sent by businessman and once-upon-a-time politician Cem Boyner to his employees that urged them to stay in Turkey, rather than seek a life elsewhere.

    Boyner has denied ever writing the email, and I believe him; the wording, with heavy emphasis on the Mediterranean need for the sun, inability to shovel snow in Canada and rummaging through your Turkish friends’ Facebook pages while lamenting the absence of Turkish tea in foreign cafes carries the obvious stamp of an Aegean vagabond, rather than an international businessman like Boyner. Nonetheless, the message, shared and re-shared on social media, poured gasoline on one of the most contentious debates: “Should we stay or should we leave Turkey…” – deep breath – “while there is time to leave?” From the people in my French conversation class to our colleagues, people talk about settling in Canada or on a Greek island. Some have already done so. Others are busy sending their children abroad to study “just in case.”

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erospolis–turkish-dilemma-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-107427

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Felix Keverich
  96. Talha says:
    @Mitleser

    Sounds like those people who vowed to move to Canada if Trump won. It actually seems like the beginnings of a similar flight of secular and irreligious from Iran, but just more gradual. I guess we’ll see what happens.

    Peace.

  97. @Mitleser

    You are confusing currency rates and economic growth. When rouble crashed in 2014, there were comments in Western press to the effect that it means the end of Russia. That’s just ignorant. Stats show very robust economic growth in Turkey over the past decade.

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=TR

    This can’t be all made up, as Turkey’s energy consumption is growing:

    https://www.eia.gov/beta/international/data/browser/#/?pa=000000001s&c=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000gg&ct=0&vs=INTL.44-2-TUR-QBTU.A&ord=CR&vo=0&v=H&end=2015

    Supporters of the Turkish opposition will be marginalized and leave the country.

    This means Germany will have some 30 million people to take in. Are you from Germany? If so, you have my sympathy. ;)

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  98. Beckow says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Control of mass media is not that important and the so-called ‘crackdowns‘ are usually just a more extreme version of the Western practise that only loyal people keep certain jobs and only some people get charged with corruption.

    The real method that West has used for generations to prevent a truly competitive politics is process control: the way parties are organised, access to ballot, rules preventing outsiders from succeeding. Process uber alles. That and the good old bribe-and-blackmail.

    Lately it has not worked so well and we are starting to see more direct methods in the West like the media propaganda overkill, criminal threats, demonisation, street circuses. The uglier methods are what non-Western elites who prefer to play the democracy game usually employ. The more visible manipulations might not work in the West, we will see. When you have to scream ‘Hitler!’ and hire goons to break up demonstrations, instead of the good old paperwork management as before, you might be losing control.

  99. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    borders of Lausanne instead of Sèvres

    Exactly, it is not Turkish, it is Anatolian.

    how many are going to return a country where they have nothing left and the government considers them to be traitors? After spending years in Turkey most likely they will stay there indefinitely.

    This obviously depends on the post-conflict negotiations. Again, I have seen no indication that the Turks want to absorb all the Syrians. The territory that they are controlling in Syria is still not quite stable and they want to move Syrians into it:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/refugee-returns-expected-afrin-operation-turkey-180222114439065.html

    The problem is they are basically settling them into old Kurdish areas – so they are using them as a political ploy – not cool. But it shows that they are not planning to absorb Syrians en masse.

    less problematic from a ethno-religious perspective.

    Yup – we have to be pragmatic when dealing with the situation.

    why I said appears rather than are

    Fair enough, makes sense.

    It seems like a lot of the scholars and doctrine you cite are from (ethnic) Arabs

    Actually the names fool people. The majority of the scholars I cite are Persian. Especially following the Hanafi school. Their names sometimes sound Arabic (like Abu Hanifa, Abu Dawud, etc.), but they are Persian. You have to understand – the religion was revealed to the Arabs, but it was the Persians that built up much of the structural foundations once the Arabs handed them the raw material (including the codification of the Arabic language):

    excluding them seems somewhat evasive.

    I was including them, but they are a minority in Pakistan. Again, people in the West assume they have large numbers because they are loud and cause a lot of trouble.

    Arab-Perso-Turkic culture has influenced Pakistan significantly

    That is exactly what Pakistan is due to its proximity and history. A child with a Persian mother, a Turkic father and an Arab grandfather…fostered by an Indian woman.

    Pakistan is an extension of Persianate culture and influence in the region – the higher levels of poetry in Urdu is basically like Farsi. The Muslims across the border in India, like in Gujurat are similar to them, but they are very distinct from Muslims in places like South India and Bangladesh.

    made it lose part of the distinctiveness that the pre-Islamic culture had.

    Sure, that always happens. Once a people become Muslim, they are going to leave the incompatible parts of the old culture. Same thing happened to Europeans. Now if you want to see it happening in real time, keep an eye on the Kalash people (an old pagan/animist folk in the Chitral area) – they are slowly, slowly becoming Muslim. They are navigating how to keep some of their old cultural customs while adopting Islam.

    When a muslim country becomes secular does it become more or less distinct culturally?

    Less. Seculars love globo-mono-culture. I showed you the picture of Mufti Rafi Usmani, look up secular leaders of Pakistan (or other countries) – which ones wear clothing tailored locally and which ones wear the suits and shoes imported from Italy and France? Here is one of the brilliant scholars out of Malaysia (Mufti Akiti) receiving an award (wearing the Malaysian-style sarong):

    Why are our secular elites ashamed to wear local cultural garb? Seculars in Muslim lands are also pro-poz.

    But do not the ‘core rules’ shape culture to a significant extent, especially in a such rules-based religion?

    Absolutely – Islam gives you the basic outline of the drawing – it’s up to each culture how they want to color it in (and stay within the lines). It is fairly amazing – you could drop a guy from Senegal in the middle of Brunei across the world; he has no clue what the language is, the food, the smells, the clothing, all different…but when he walks into the mosque – there is a familiarity that he is home – the people pray the same (slight differences of course, since he will pray with his hands down and they will fold them) in the same language of liturgy, if he is there for Ramadan he knows what to do, the Friday congregational prayer is the same, the call to prayer being what he remembers from home, etc.

    Don’t worry, the Saudis are working on it.

    Sure…and people like me are getting in their way.

    Peace.

  100. @German_reader

    No offense, but to me you actually come across like a horrifying failure of “integration”. Sure, you’re probably a law-abiding and economically productive citizen, but mentally and culturally you could just as well live in Pakistan or some other Islamic country

    I’ve thought about this in regards to myself as well. I was born here and in all practical ways, the US was the only country that I knew well. Growing up, I identified not only very strongly with most “American” values such as the primacy of freedom of speech and gun ownership but also rather heavily with the American Southern subculture due to who my friends were – very Southern Baptist, very Lost Cause people. I’m sure that iffen might have noticed traces of it. My hero was Stonewall Jackson, who rode to the front lines and prayed during battle, heedless of death because only God could appoint his time.

    I suppose I could have considered myself fully assimilated. I never really thought much about the Chinese heritage beyond the most superficial, and was fanatically opposed to speech suppression, so naturally I was pretty anti-China. Still am not very fond of GFW.

    Ironically, it was the liberal destruction of culture that would serve to disassociate me more from American culture than anything. If my sacred cow was free speech, the evisercation of it could only cause an identity crisis. Since I believed in fairly individualistic capitalism, the increasingly suffocating forms of socialism could only annoy me. If my heroes were Southern generals, the effort to deface them could only be a blow to what I sensed as “history.” If American culture was to be redefined, pretty abruptly, as celebration of homosexuality, feminism and deplatforming people for badthink…well…this doesn’t seem to be a culture I want to identify with.

    Naturally, that leaves me empty, to which my only answer is to live with my principles and beliefs, and to some extent, reject everything.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @German_reader
  101. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    There is something called the New Monastic Option developed by Morris Berman, although other writers discuss it as well and its really an ancient idea.

    In times like this, probably the only solution for people of character is to withdraw. There were quite a few historical periods where the only real option is to withdraw.

    If you really believe in an underlying unity, then even your actions and thought patterns while alone reverberate through the world and have some kind of impact.

    Plus, things are much better in other countries, although the rot is literally everywhere.

    You mentioned you’re trying to make your great escape to Hong Kong. When I’m overseas I just feel so much more relaxed, happy, and even motivated.

  102. Mitleser says:
    @Felix Keverich

    You are confusing currency rates and economic growth. When rouble crashed in 2014, there were comments in Western press to the effect that it means the end of Russia.

    In the end, it meant for Russia years without positive economic growth.
    Not the end of Russia, but certainly the opposite of a boom.

    Stats show very robust economic growth in Turkey over the past decade.

    There is reason to doubt Turkish economic growth numbers.
    Not to mention that economic growth in 2016 was the lowest since 2009.

    I have seen a few articles here and there that suggest Turkish growth data is being fudged by the Turks, to be honest I have been suspicious as well as to how a country with a GDP per capita of over $25,000 can be growing by 7%

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/turkey-extends-erdogans-mandate/#comment-2391863

    Also, keep in mind how fast the Turkish population is growing.

    This can’t be all made up, as Turkey’s energy consumption is growing:

    Last date from 2015.

    This means Germany will have some 30 million people to take in.

    There would be a European solution for that because there are a lot of Turks in the neighbor countries as well.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  103. @AaronB

    Heh, I’ve been to every continent except Australia and Australia at this point but identity really is much more than the soil beneath your feet. Withdrawal is often the wise choice, but the world doesn’t always give you that option with honor.

  104. @AaronB

    In times like this, probably the only solution for people of character is to withdraw.

    Can’t you join a monastery or become a hermit somewhere (maybe like those guys in late antiquity who lived on columns for decades)? Doesn’t matter which spiritual tradition you choose, it’s just important that it keeps you away from the internet.

    • LOL: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AaronB
  105. @Daniel Chieh

    well…this doesn’t seem to be a culture I want to identify with.

    I suspect many white Americans with deeper roots in the country feel the same way.
    Your experience seems rather different to me than Talha’s whose views probably wouldn’t have been much different even in Eisenhower’s America.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  106. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    But then where would you be without me GR? I consider myself your spiritual advisor. I have a responsibility towards you.

    I also must help others understand that people with your attitude will demoralize any group if you are allowed free reign.

    But I do yearn for life on top of a pillar…

    • Replies: @LatW
  107. LatW says:
    @AaronB

    I also must help others understand that people with your attitude will demoralize any group if you are allowed free reign.

    Oh, that’s right, we are such babies and we need your help so badly… :) LOL There are plenty of idealistic nationalists in Europe (Eastern Europe at least and a few in the West), there are a lot of talkers, too (so what, you’re no different – I mean, did you by any chance visit the Red Hen restaurant and face the owner or do anything similar to support ICE or whatever… or do anything about the Chinese takeovers of American assets… that are happening left and right as we speak… oh, wait… I guess that’s not idealistic enough.. don’t bother answering). By the way, some of the idealists that have accomplished great deeds, complain every day about the government or the state of affairs in the world. They’re still idealists. And there are different types of nationalists, there are thoughtful humanities types, too…

    And it’s amusing to see how you self-appointed yourself as some authority who delegated GR to “save Germany” or how you think you know what Europeans need (while ignoring the problems at home). I never saw him taking on that responsibility and it certainly doesn’t look like he would mind the removal of undesirable migrants. In a civilized way. At one point, you’ll see what it’s like to live with a real foreign 5th column. He does have fortitude and a lot of his opinions are just… common sense.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Mitleser
  108. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    I think it’s not comparable because Erdogan is more like Trump – and he angers a large proportion of the Turkish population (the civilized and educated Turkish people) for ideological reasons (Erdogan has a radical program for Turkey).

    Whereas it’s the opposite in Putin, where ideologically he is a moderate and centrist – who tries to make many different kinds of people happy.

    People can be unhappy about many things like his marketing style, government incompetence, economic results, conflict with West, or wealth of officials. But proportion of people who are in opposition for ideological reasons?. Ideological opposition is not so large, because Putin’s ideology is moderate and tries to encompass many different points of view and groups, and the end result is not far from a general public view.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  109. @Dmitry

    Well, there really isn’t a “center” in the US anymore, and insofar as it exists, it is potentially impotent. Its basically gotten to nonviolent civil war at this point, where many political groups see each and every conflict as existential.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Mitleser
  110. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US has become very politically polarized as well, as if politics is the most popular form of entertainment, and where people support emotionally (like fans – etymology from the word “fanatic”) one or other political sides as if it is replacing the game of Yankees vs Red Sox.

  111. AaronB says:
    @LatW

    Oh, that’s right, we are such babies and we need your help so badly… :) LOL

    Eastern Europeans don’t need my help. Western Europeans do. They are lost sheep, the poor little things.

    What you don’t grasp – and many of the EErs here do not – is that GR in the context of EE would be fine, even helpful. He would be a minor voice whose uninspiring vision nevertheless aligns more or less with the healthy majority.

    But in the context of Western Europe GRs attitude is exactly what we don’t need.

    His small minded, fearful, practical, unimaginative, timid, gloomy, pessimistic attitude wouldn’t be so bad in s basically healthy EE, but in the West at this juncture in time it’s pure poison.

    Because in the West the Right is basically people like GR, higher quality people who crave an inspiring vision flock to the Left.

    Unless the Right in the West can overcome people like GR, there is no future for it.

  112. @Dmitry

    I would say that the polarization is not irrational. It is existential.

    Its not a game when one side is importing its own voters.

  113. @Talha

    you think we’re suddenly going to have PRIDE parades in Madinah

    Just be patient. Let gradualism do its work.

    Saudi officers hand out roses to women drivers in historic moment

    • Replies: @Talha
  114. Mitleser says:
    @LatW

    do anything about the Chinese takeovers of American assets

    What are you talking about?
    Americans are already successfully discouraging them.

    • Replies: @LatW
  115. Talha says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    LOL – I get what you are saying, but there is no Shariah restriction on letting women drive so there is no equivalence.

    Part of the issue is that the poz is an overreaction to policies that are way beyond what the Shariah calls for. One must be careful here; if one is willing to breach the sacred law and enforce whatever one feels to keep women down, then they will similarly react by discarding the sacred law in their demands.

    It is a balance that must be maintained with wisdom.

    If I see those parades happening first in Cairo and Amman, etc. then I will start to think about it.

    Peace.

  116. @Felix Keverich

    A very large minority (45%+) remains “anti” to one degree or another. The division is not going away. Since Turkish politics has made the party of Mehmet Ali Agca into kingmakers or perhaps pashamakers, whereas the early Erdogan government had seemed somewhat liberal, I don’t expect the polarisation to lessen.

  117. I don’t have time to comment at length at the moment (will try this evening) but just wanted to register that I strongly agree with Talha and Aaron B here, and strongly disagree with German Reader.

    Talha, I find you consistently one of the most interesting commenters on my social media (which mostly consists of Unz Review, Rod Dreher’s blog, and people I know on FB). And I say that as someone who has a fairly dim view of Islam in particular and Semitic monotheism in general, and who’s also a strong critic of mass migration. You have always really interesting things to say, you’re clearly a smart and well read guy, and most importantly you’re willing to take seriously the concerns of people who strongly disagree with you and are strongly critical of your ethnic/religious/racial group and your presence in their countries. Good on you for all that.

    I’d mostly agree with what you say here with a few caveats. 1) I don’t care for Erdogan’s religiosity and much less for his plans of dominating Europe through demographics. 2) That said, you’re dead right that for those of us who want to limit (and in the far future, maybe reverse) migration from Africa / Asia / Middle East to Europe, increased prosperity in these countries is a very good thing.

    The more prosperous and higher standard of living in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, the greater our chances that migration flows will end or reverse and European countries can return to more of the “ethnic homeland” model. It’s not impossible and it’s happened before, after all: the collapse of the Eastern Bloc is a good example, as we saw substantial migration of Jews to Israel, Germans back to Germany, Russians to Russia, and even to some extent Roma to Canada and Western Europe. Russia might even be a less ethnically diverse place than it was in 1991, although Anatoly could correct me on that (I have no idea for sure).

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
  118. @Hector_St_Clare

    The more prosperous and higher standard of living in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, the greater our chances that migration flows will end

    It’s not as simple as that as you must know, at least at first rising living standards would probably mean an increase in the migration pressure on Europe, since many more people would have the necessary financial funds, access to information etc. to try to immigrate to Europe.
    As for Erdogan making Turkey prosperous, there have been numerous posts above expressing strong doubt about how solid Turkey’s economic growth actually is.
    I expect you will once again bring up that poll from Austria where a majority of Turks supposedly said they would like to remigrate back to Turkey. That’s nonsense imo, not going to happen.

  119. @Talha

    I was including them, but they are a minority in Pakistan. Again, people in the West assume they have large numbers because they are loud and cause a lot of trouble.

    This is partly my fault, I was mixing together a general example and a personal example and it made the conversation more focused on Pakistan than I intended.

    My comment wasn’t aimed at Salafists in Pakistan, rather more globally.

    Which is why I preceded the ‘evasive’ part by
    ”I don’t know about Pakistan, but in other countries Salafists are definitely part of the religious millieu”

    When I talk with Albanians or Bosnians or Central Asians the secular ones give off a much stronger impression of coming from these countries than their religious counterparts do, who seem like they could be from a random generic Muslim country.

    It is good that eastern Muslim countries have retained more of their local customs, but from my experiences talking to Muslims from more western Muslim countries I don’t think it is like that to the same degree in western Muslim countries.

    Same thing happened to Europeans.

    That is different, local pagan European culture still influenced Christian Europeans to a significant degree, there wasn’t an equivalent disappearance of the past as there was in places like Egypt or Mesopotamia. Europeans have a cultural continuity with the past.

    Pagan beliefs also excerted influence on European Christian religious customs.

    Many pagan Greek and Roman influences in art, architecture, political ideals are still celebrated and emulated today.

    Richard Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelung, based on Germanic folklore, was widely celebrated by contempories and many other artists drew inspiration from a mixture of Christian and pagan motifs (as seen by palaces where statues of angels are right next to Nymph statues).

    And it is not necessarily a specific European thing, despite Buddhism being an Indian religion originally, East Asian countries adapted it to their culture rather than becoming Indianised.

    In Japan Buddhism managed to coexist with the traditional Shinto beliefs, even to the point of worshipping spirits and deities from both religions at the same time.

  120. @Talha

    I was including them, but they are a minority in Pakistan. Again, people in the West assume they have large numbers because they are loud and cause a lot of trouble.

    This is partly my fault, I was mixing together a general example and a personal example and it made the conversation more focused on Pakistan than I intended.

    My comment wasn’t aimed at Salafists in Pakistan, rather more globally.

    Which is why I preceded the ‘evasive’ part by
    ”I don’t know about Pakistan, but in other countries Salafists are definitely part of the religious millieu”

    When I talk with Albanians or Bosnians or Central Asians the secular ones give off a much stronger impression of coming from these countries than their religious counterparts do, who seem like they could be from a random generic Muslim country.

    It is good that eastern Muslim countries have retained more of their local customs, but from my experiences talking to Muslims from more western Muslim countries I don’t think it is like that to the same degree in western Muslim countries.

    Same thing happened to Europeans.

    That is different, local pagan European culture still influenced Christian Europeans to a significant degree, there wasn’t an equivalent disappearance of the past as there was in places like Egypt or Mesopotamia. Europeans have a cultural continuity with the past.

    Pagan beliefs also excerted influence on European Christian religious customs.

    Many pagan Greek and Roman influences in art, architecture, political ideals are still celebrated and emulated today.

    Richard Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelung, based on Germanic folklore, was widely celebrated by contempories and many other artists drew inspiration from a mixture of Christian and pagan motifs (as seen by palaces where statues of angels are right next to Nymph statues).

    And it is not necessarily a specific European thing, despite Buddhism being an Indian religion originally, East Asian countries adapted it to their culture rather than becoming Indianised.

    In Japan Buddhism managed to coexist with the traditional Shinto beliefs, even to the point of worshipping spirits and deities from both religions at the same time.

  121. @Talha

    I was including them, but they are a minority in Pakistan. Again, people in the West assume they have large numbers because they are loud and cause a lot of trouble.

    This is partly my fault, I was mixing together a general example and a personal example and it made the conversation more focused on Pakistan than I intended.

    My comment wasn’t aimed at Salafists in Pakistan, rather more globally.

    Which is why I preceded the ‘evasive’ part by
    ”I don’t know about Pakistan, but in other countries Salafists are definitely part of the religious millieu”

    When I talk with Albanians or Bosnians or Central Asians the secular ones give off a much stronger impression of coming from these countries than their religious counterparts do, who seem like they could be from a random generic Muslim country.

    It is good that eastern Muslim countries have retained more of their local customs, but from my experiences talking to Muslims from more western Muslim countries I don’t think it is like that to the same degree in western Muslim countries.

    Same thing happened to Europeans.

    That is different, local pagan European culture still influenced Christian Europeans to a significant degree, there wasn’t an equivalent disappearance of the past as there was in places like Egypt or Mesopotamia. Europeans have a cultural continuity with the past.

    Pagan beliefs also excerted influence on European Christian religious customs.

    Many pagan Greek and Roman influences in art, architecture, political ideals are still celebrated and emulated today.

    Richard Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelung, based on Germanic folklore, was widely celebrated by contempories and many other artists drew inspiration from a mixture of Christian and pagan motifs (as seen by palaces where statues of angels are right next to Nymph statues).

    And it is not necessarily a specific European thing, despite Buddhism being an Indian religion originally, East Asian countries adapted it to their culture rather than becoming Indianised.

    In Japan Buddhism managed to coexist with the traditional Shinto beliefs, even to the point of worshipping spirits and deities from both religions at the same time.

    • Replies: @Talha
  122. I see I accidentally triple-posted a long comment, sorry.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  123. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    So you fix it by posting a 4th comment!?

    :)

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  124. @AaronB

    Short answer: Yes.

    Long(er) answer: if I cannot erase the redundant ones I can at least give a short explanation that it was not my intention to spam long walls of text.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  125. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    No worries, I hear you. Was just kidding around a bit.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  126. @AaronB

    It can be hard sometimes to interpret the spirit in which comments are made on the Internet due to the lack of things like body language, tone of voice, facial expressions etc. which I rely on to gauge people’s intentions in real life conversations.

    So I sometimes shortly deliberate whether to reply in the same spirit the comment was made or whether I should just give a very literal answer to remove the doubt.

  127. Talha says:
    @Hector_St_Clare

    Hey Hector, long time..

    Talha, I find you consistently one of the most interesting commenters on my social media

    Thanks, but that’s probably since I’m in such a niche that you don’t find elsewhere. Around traditional Muslims, the stuff I talk about is pretty much par for the course. I have however done more historical research than most Muslims since I’ve always been interested in that stuff.

    his plans of dominating Europe through demographics.

    Yeah, I think that kind of stuff is not a good way to approach other nations in our post-WW2 climate of non-aggression and I frankly think it will backfire on him if he keeps it up (a bit like that incident with the shoot down of the Russian fighter plane over the Turkey/Syria border).

    increased prosperity in these countries is a very good thing.

    And you make the case well. Especially if the countries are doing better or are stable, then even if recent migrants don’t willingly go back, it won’t take much to incentivize or pressure them to. And the populations of Europe will be much more agreeable to it if you are not sending people back into a war zone or famine.

    There are some things that Turkey is doing right in this sense. They have infrastructure initiatives in places in Africa which are cooperative and with the aim to turn everything over to the locals with full knowledge transfer:
    “Habtamu Bekele, the company’s site engineer, who spoke to Anadolu Agency by phone, said the electrified rail project had unique attributes.
    ‘I have worked with various international infrastructure contractors for many years; what is unique about Turkish professionals is that they are willing to transfer their skills, and quality is not compromised,’ he said.”

    https://www.dailysabah.com/economy/2017/08/02/turkish-construction-giant-eyes-more-africa-projects-after-ethiopia-tanzania-railways

    “One of them is the Somalia-Turkey Training and Research Hospital established in 2015 in Mogadishu, which offered at least 67,000 locals healthcare service last year alone. TIKA provided the hospital with equipment and supplies to offer quality healthcare services. Under an agreement, the hospital is being operated jointly for five years, with the Turkish Health Ministry providing specialized personnel and financial support, after which the hospital will be run by Somalia alone.”

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/turkish-hospitals-in-africa-serve-hundreds-of-thousands/694872

    As with everything, we should be mature about how we approach this subject and not see things like some comic-book plot. Give credit where it’s due and encourage it and denounce where someone is doing wrong and discourage it.

    Either way, a more prosperous Africa is in everyone’s interest from multiple perspectives including the immigration issue as well as Europeans not feeling guilty about keeping money to help their own people instead of sending it in charity overseas.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon
  128. @Mitleser

    This can’t be all made up, as Turkey’s energy consumption is growing:

    https://www.eia.gov/beta/international/data/browser/#/?pa=000000001s&c=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000gg&ct=0&vs=INTL.44-2-TUR-QBTU.A&ord=CR&vo=0&v=H&end=2015

    Last date from 2015.

    Would you at least aknowledge that there has been robust growth up to 2015?

    I actually went through the trouble of digging some relevant data, and you just disregard it in favor of some anti-Turkey conspiracy theories.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  129. Short of Kristallnacht-type occurrences (cue Wally denying such things ever happened) I do not expect Turks in Austria to go back in large numbers. It should be noted that AKP media in Turkey often make propaganda for Turks domiciled in Europe to return, and occurrences of anti-Turkish violence and racism in Europe get the full media treatment (incidentally, this is at odds with any alleged desire to take over Europe, and I don’t believe the AKP has any fully-worked-out policy in this regard).

  130. In 2006 a film called Umut Adasi (“Hope Island”) was released in Turkey. It is about Turks coming to Britain seeking a better future (they hide out on a ship whose captain knows they are there and is paid to hide them). They do not find it – the film title is somewhat ironic. One young woman ends up engaging in prostitution in London, if I remember rightly she was fired from an office job after her female English boss made lesbian advances that she rebuffed. A young man defends himself quite effectively against racist British louts and gets fired by his Turkish employer for causing trouble. I think he ends up returning to Turkey, and of all the characters he is clearly the one the audience is meant to identify with. The film knocks life in Britain, and expresses the AKP viewpoint quite well, even though it was made when there was still a rather rose-tinted view of the AKP in Western countries.

  131. Anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    The mass knife attack at the train station in Yunnan, China in 2014 could have had some Turkish element enabling it. Somebody in the Turkish state issued thousands of Turkish passports to help ex-filtrate Uighurs from China, possibly to join one of Turkey’s fighting groups in Syria. A group of Uighur terrorists could have gotten stuck in Yunnan, a southwest province of China border that borders southeast Asia, and then decided to go on their suicide rampage at the station.

    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
  132. Mitleser says:
    @Felix Keverich

    The economic growth in Turkey during PM Erdogan was remarkable (most of the time) and ensured that the ruling AKP party remained popular.

    We live now in the era of President Erdogan, though.
    He can no longer rely too much on economic factors to secure his rule.

    “The Council notes that Turkey has been moving further away from the European Union. Turkey’s accession negotiations have therefore effectively come to a standstill and no further chapters can be considered for opening or closing and no further work towards the modernisation of the EU-Turkey Customs Union is foreseen,” the council’s conclusions stated.

    https://cyprus-mail.com/2018/06/26/eu-council-issues-strong-message-about-turkeys-obligations/

    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
  133. http://www.abcgazetesi.com/politika/turk-karikaturist-erdoganin-zaferini-almanyadan-boyle-gordu/haber-91294 Interview with cartoonist Muhsin Omurca, who has produced a cartoon of Erdogan riding to victory on a car driven by MHP leader Bahceli. Perhaps wisely, Omurca lives in Germany.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  134. @Anonymous

    Possibly. Uighurs in exile have long found Turkey to be a useful base, including for planning armed attacks in China and recruiting militants. Erdogan told the Chinese he was ending such support, whether he was sincere or not, who can say. It may be he continues supporting them, under the table.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
  135. @Uebersetzer

    Of course he does.

    Turks are natural born liars and deceivers, it’s in their genes. I have had the “opportunity” (the misfortune really) to have to deal with several of them in an earlier professional life where many of them are active were I used to live — I don’t have one good thing to say about them.

    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
  136. @Mitleser

    I think President Erdogan is relying more on repression, ultra-nationalism, control of the state apparatus and the manipulation of crises now to stay in power. If Turkey were a typical European country, he would have lost power by now – the election pendulum would eventually swing against him. But Turkey is not such a country.
    If Erdogan loses power, he stands an excellent chance of going to jail. He will do anything not to go there.

  137. @Guillaume Tell

    Personally speaking, some of the best people I have known have been from Turkey – and also some of the worst. The ones I know may not be typical and the ones I have liked are certainly not Erdogan voters. My encounters with many other ethnic groups have generally been more nuanced – neither admiration nor revulsion.

  138. On the subject of ethnic generalisations, the Turkish film I mention in comment 131 was strikingly devoid of positive British characters – they are all without exception racist thugs, exploitative lesbians or arrogant johns.

  139. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    than their religious counterparts do, who seem like they could be from a random generic Muslim country.

    OK – I’m going to call you out on that one. Do you actually know religious people from those backgrounds? Because I do and I don’t get the impression that you can simply interchange religious Uzbeks, Bosnians, Pakistanis, etc. We all pray together and come together for religious reasons and invite each other over for dinner, but – for instance – I asked a Bosnian brother (very religious), who is trying to get his daughter married off to someone from his original village, if he would entertain the idea of some of the Albanians in the area and he said he didn’t prefer it because he thought the cultural divide was a bit too much. Bosnians and Albanians…

    I don’t think it is like that to the same degree in western Muslim countries.

    That’s because we are – to a degree – culturally orphaned, we are still trying to make sense of things and find our way. We don’t have a clear sense of a solid cultural identity yet.

    Europeans have a cultural continuity with the past.

    Not sure about this. I’ve read quite a bit about Swedish history; I simply do not see the continuity with the culture of their pagan past other than something like Midsummer.

    Pagan beliefs also excerted influence on European Christian religious customs.

    Absolutely – and we see this as a major, major problem. Islam is absolutely allergic to influence from outside religious tradition. We do not do syncretic religious innovations – and if they are present in recently converted people, then they are eventually removed over time.

    Cultural remnants like language, clothing, food, sports, poetry, architecture, etc. all of that stuff is totally fine to express one’s heritage in a unique way – where I come from in Pakistan, the bride’s family steals the groom’s wedding shoes and bribe him to give them back once they are satisfied with the price (this has nothing to do with religion). I’ve mentioned the Tuareg before. They have been Muslims for centuries and they still go about their nomadic lifestyle as before. There is no pressure on them to become settled peoples nor does the religion give city-dwelling folk a superior status to them. In fact, the sacred law has particular rules for them that are different from settled peoples – as far as holding Friday prayer, legalities regarding place of residence, etc. These are the kinds of mosques they utilize:

    The protection over the gates of the religion is what has allowed us to have such unity (as I explained earlier with my Senegalese in Brunei example) in doctrine and practice over the course of centuries and wide geography – and this was all accomplished without any parallels to synods or councils to determine orthodoxy – all due to the fail-safes already built into the religion. Put a Southern Baptist into an Assyrian Church service – he won’t know up from down.

    Many pagan Greek and Roman influences in art, architecture, political ideals are still celebrated and emulated today.

    Muslim scholars took pains to preserve pre-Islamic poetry from men like Labid and Imr ul-Qays. Architecture tends to follow local culture even in mosques; the ones in Morocco are very different than the ones in Turkey or Iran or Indonesia. The ones in Turkey are mostly patterned on Byzantine styles. The ones on the Island of Java look like this:

    And in China, look like this:

    The Islamic calligraphic styles found in China are found nowhere else and are obviously influenced by local culture:

    http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/features.php?searchterm=005_calligraphy.inc&issue=005

    So we feel we have a comfortable balance between adoption of local pre-Islamic culture and rejection of pre-Islamic religious ideas. Others can feel free to disagree with our approach of course.

    Peace.

  140. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    I’m sorry if I’m butting in to a private conversation.

    more prosperous Africa is in everyone’s interest

    Yes, of course. The overseas charity aid regimes are a good part, though not remotely nearly the whole, of why this hasn’t happened and often seems to go in the other direction.

    I’m in such a niche that you don’t find elsewhere

    Yes, it’s interesting to read what you have to say. UR gets a fair number of Muslim commenters but except for some guy called Qasim who doesn’t seem to post anymore you seem to be almost the only one consistently worth reading.

    Actually, most of the regular posters on Sr. Karlin’s blog are worth reading, or so at least I find, which is somewhat odd.

    • Replies: @Talha
  141. @Polish Perspective

    An affiliation with the Ivy League undermines credibility in a way that being “a Ron Paul crank” does not.

  142. @Uebersetzer

    Plenty of Turks in germany and Austria to bump off someone like that.

    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
  143. Talha says:
    @Anon

    private conversation.

    If it was private, it wouldn’t be so public. :) But thanks for the courtesy.

    The overseas charity aid regimes are a good part

    They are a good thing, but unfortunately foreign aid is sometimes funneled into the pockets of corrupt elite. There needs to be a way to rethink the strategy. I am hoping the development projects by nations like Turkey and China will forge a different path that will give Africans full responsibility for their future.

    some guy called Qasim

    Qasim is a good friend (we exchange emails a few times a week), he reads Unz still but has mostly gone slient.

    Actually, most of the regular posters on Sr. Karlin’s blog are worth reading

    Yeah – very interesting discussions…except for when the various Slavs go postal on each other, but I just ignore that.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Greasy William
  144. @RadicalCenter

    Sure, but he is still safer from arbitrary arrest and casual murder than in Turkey, although Erdogan’s hand reaches far.
    I remember going for a walk in Istanbul in 2008 and wondering why there was a permanent police presence at a certain point on a main road in Sisli. I asked about it and was told “Hrant Dink was killed there.” Dink was a well-known Armenian journalist murdered by the sort of people Erdogan is pals with now. The reason for the police presence was to discourage protests at the spot. A little further on is a monument to Ugur Mumcu, a journalist and writer murdered under mysterious circumstances in 1993. The theories as to why he was killed are many and varied.

  145. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    They are a good thing, but unfortunately foreign aid is sometimes funneled into the pockets of corrupt elite.

    It depends, sometimes it’s just incompetence compounded by the fact that in many cases nobody has any incentive to actually help people, just to distribute stuff, which may or may not be a net plus for the recipients.

    For instance, a relative of mine was hired to consult on a certain European government initiative, better conceived than most, to Empower Women in a certain village in Jaffna by teaching them to read, at some considerable expense. The problem was that everyone in the village already knew how to read, except for a few old grandmothers, but they figured: hey, they’re going to so much trouble and giving us free food into the bargain, we might as well go to these classes. So this initiative had no effect at all except to waste time which might have been employed productively, and to somewhat decrease the respect given to the old grandmothers aforementioned, because they were the only ones who had any “difficulty” (so to speak) in the classroom environment.

    • Replies: @Talha
  146. Doubtless, as a good American, you’re not a great fan of throwing gays off roofs, nor, as a good Muslim, of gays generally. You’ve always accepted women, if not as the equal of men, then at least as half their value. You don’t approve of paedophilia, except when practised by the Prophet FH, and so on. You know what you can do with your admiration for Anglo-Saxon law, don’t you?

  147. Talha says:
    @Anon

    I agree here when it comes to government aid – it can be quite wasteful. My wife used to work for a relief agency (a private charitable organization) so I got to know how they worked. They were very careful about how the money was spent, they really made things count. Before they spent money on something (unless there was an obvious disaster like an earthquake, flood, etc.), they’d have someone like her go to the area spend a few days, evaluate the situation and then come back and report whether this was worth dedicating funds to.

    Peace.

  148. Talha you indeed provide a lot of minute details about your religion, which are interesting inasmuch as a cabinet of curios is interesting. However there is this obsessive aspect to it that really comes across as almost forced. It seems that the only thing in life you do is focus on whatever absurd predicates you, your “brothers” and “sisters” must follow per whatever guidelines some imam has decided for you.

    In addition you live in a country whose mission, it seems, has been to kill as many moslems as possible over the course of the past couple or triple of decades, and you seem quite content to live ther while playing mr super-muslim. That strikes me as self-justification.

    However I thank you for taking the time to further explain the details of your system of thought. It appears to work for a great deal of people, certainly not the brightest amongst modern humans, but very many nonetheless.

    • Replies: @Talha
  149. LatW says:
    @Mitleser

    What are you talking about?
    Americans are already successfully discouraging them.

    I’m talking about the American carnage. While I agree that these big global companies kind of live a life of their own (although is there really a good reason why AMC should be Chinese and not American?), there are other developments that happen on a micro level. The Chinese are not just buying luxury real estate on the US West coast, they’re buying and developing small, discreet properties. Chinese born and educated women are now taking up jobs that have so far been reserved for white women only. I know there’s a need for talent, but why isn’t that talent American born… these are lucrative jobs that’ll be taken by foreigners who will stay… etc., etc., as repeatedly discussed on this site.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  150. AaronB says:

    Talha – you must have accumulated quite a bit of spiritual merit during Ramadan :)

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    , @Talha
  151. @AaronB

    Why are you groveling at the feet of the muzzie?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @DFH
  152. AaronB says:
    @Guillaume Tell

    You would do well to learn from him – but you seem to somewhat at least appreciate him so its good.

    Humility is a precondition for greatness.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
  153. @LatW

    Chinese born and educated women are now taking up jobs that have so far been reserved for white women only.

    I don’t know what you’re referring to.

    Are you talking about health care positions? At the highest levels, such as doctors, there’s no lack of demand. There’s never enough doctors and as the population ages, this will only increase. If you’re referring to support positions such as nurses, from what I’ve seen, they are overwhelmingly Latina.

    If you’re talking about corporate management positions, those are overwhelmingly Indian. Chinese prominence is mostly in highly technical positions, where its overwhelmingly male rather than female.

    I really haven’t seen any competition between Chinese and white women in terms of jobs and I’ve been in the industry for a long time; upper management at the moment at a F100 company. Its pretty much a wipeout between Indians, Jewish and white women. There’s one token Chinese woman.

    I should add that my co-ethnics usually(though not always) frustrate me as colleagues, due to communication issues and a cultural attitude of “good enough” which is particularly aggravating as it means that work produced is almost always passable, but never excellent. I like excellence.

    • Replies: @LatW
  154. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Despite the intensity of the deeds we do in that month, the servant looks at the paltriness and insincerity of his worship and can only despair. But when he looks to the generosity of his Master, he becomes elated; it is beneath His nobility to turn away beggars empty-handed or to pay the wages of His servants in false coin.

    What is the gift of sight worth?

    http://ilmfruits.com/2007/500-years-of-worship/

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
  155. @Talha

    Qasim is a good friend (we exchange emails a few times a week), he reads Unz still but has mostly gone slient.

    Yeah I liked that guy. I hope my frequent calls to murder hundreds of millions of his coreligionists isn’t what drove him off.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Talha
  156. Talha says:
    @Greasy William

    No, he actually appreciates your candor and the fact that, despite your antagonism towards Arabs and other Muslims, you don’t use that as a reason to make up crap about or denigrate our religion. He hates the run of the mill Zionists that pop up around here with nothing but obfuscation and jihadwatch talking points. He has actually questioned why the heck I treat those guys with civility.

    Peace.

  157. @AaronB

    talking about humility, considering the fact that you spend most of your comments here pontificating and spewing your « spiritual » mumbo-jumbo… I guess I must understand your advice as being humorous.

    • Agree: Greasy William
  158. @Talha

    You really are excellent at writing stylish BS. I don’t know what you do in life but you most certainly could be a great lawyer.

    • LOL: Talha
  159. @DFH

    (((They))) really come in 2 varieties when it comes to their dealings with the affiliates of the Religion of Peace-Tolerance-and-Love:
    1. The shamelessly groveling type (eg AaronB)
    2. The fiercely antagonist type (eg Greasy)
    There does not seem to be very many “via media” types. I think I have never encountered one. And I know quite a bit of Jews due to my current employ.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Greasy William
  160. AaronB says:
    @Guillaume Tell

    Do as I say, not as I do Guillaume!

    In all seriousness, though, there are different types of humility – in important ways I am quite humble.

    You can double down out of pride and fear, Guillaume, brooding over the vanished glories of your people as they continue to die, or you can swallow your pride, admit your weakness, and learn from whoever you can.

    The choice is yours, Guillaume.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
  161. @Guillaume Tell

    when have I ever said anything against Islam? I like all the major religions except for Buddhism, and even Buddhism has some good points.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
  162. Talha says:
    @Guillaume Tell

    It seems that the only thing in life you do is focus on

    Well, if you talked to me when I was 16, then I would have talked a heck of a lot more about Mark Messier, Pavel Bure, Sergei Federov and the stats and the player trades and the lockouts, etc.

    This is my area of interest now in life. Some people read a bunch of books on WW2 or the Civil War or Mediterranean cooking, or can recite all the lyrics of their favorite rock band from memory, etc. A man dedicates his life and his most precious commodity (time) to that which he feels provides him with most benefit. They announced a few Fridays ago (in the congregational prayer) that a brother died in his sleep, he was 25 and left behind a young widow and 5 month old daughter. Another brother, a dear friend from UCLA, Dr. Ather Ali, died from cancer just last year:
    “He [Dr. Ali] was one of very few naturopath physicians in North America who became truly integrated into an academic medical center and assume a leadership position in integrative medicine. He was the founding director of the Yale Program in Integrative Medicine.”

    http://www.imconsortium.org/comments/AtherScholarship.cfm

    You get one chance at life, bro…time’s ticking – everyone should pick what they feel gives them purpose and do it well.

    I would not say I am the average mosque-attending Muslim, since I am studying the religion in more depth. I am pretty normal in the circle of Muslims that I generally hang around.

    and you seem quite content to live ther while playing mr super-muslim

    There are a few issues here:
    1) My father brought us here when I was 6 years old (I didn’t have a choice) – knowing what I know now and being the person that I am, I don’t think I would have taken the spiritual risks involved in coming to the West
    2) My wife is a White convert from Swedish stock – this is her home

    The crimes of a government will be upon those who carry them out. I do not pay taxes willingly for the support of these wars – if I could choose, I would shift all my taxes into welfare and infrastructure rehabilitation. I even marched in multiple rallies against the wars which Mr. Bush dismissed as a “focus group”. The last person I voted for was Dr. Ron Paul, so the guys in charge now do not have my authorization. Furthermore, I could be living in a Muslim country like Saudi and the leadership would also be killing Muslims left and right in Yemen.

    That strikes me as self-justification.

    Indeed it is – my teachers have taught us that we don’t really have any business settling in non-Muslim lands for material reasons. The only reason to be here is in a state where we are inviting people to the religion and helping uplift the communities in which we reside.

    The stats have shown we are losing roughly 1 in 4 of our children into (mostly) pozzed atheism. The spiritual risks are way too much to be in the West just so we can milk-that-cow.

    However I thank you for taking the time to further explain the details of your system of thought.

    Most welcome – I am more indebted to you guys that you take the time to read them.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
  163. maybe I’ve told this story here before, but before the “Rumble in the Jungle”, Muhammed Ali as part of his pre-fight trash talk mocked George Foreman’s Christian faith. The normally reserved Foreman completely flipped out in response, even after having brushed off all of Ali’s other insults.

    For probably the first time ever, Ali apologized and admitted he was wrong. Ali said he would never again attack somebody’s religion.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Dan Hayes
  164. @Greasy William

    Have you forgiven Dimitri for saying that Taylor Swift is a fairly ordinary girl in looks?

    • Replies: @Greasy William
  165. @Daniel Chieh

    some sins are beyond redemption

    • LOL: Talha
  166. Talha says:
    @Greasy William

    I sent Qasim a link to the thread, it made his day that you guys remembered him – he was “honored” that Greasy still did.

    Peace.

  167. @Greasy William

    Please excuse me — I must have confused your moniker with another one. Please help me remember it: it’s someone who has explicitly called for murdering 100s of millions of Muslims, in the comments section of this very blog.

    If it wasn’t you, who was it, then?

    • Replies: @Greasy William
  168. @Talha

    Thank you for the detailed response.

    I am sorry for your friend the naturopath doctor — but, man, dying of cancer at 42? I would be very wary regarding his medical theories. It seems that his naturopathic snake oil did not work that great after all.

    I understand now better your background. I don’t mean to sound judgmental with respect to your parents who brought you as a child to grow up in the « Grand Satan » country, but that has really put you between a rock and a hard place. It’s normal that you are trying to rationalize your staying there, but given the growing popularity of your coreligionists and you in the USA, I am afraid it’s going to be complicated to stay there long term. Plus your kids are going to be exposed to the surrounding toxic culture — I don’t think the men/boys outings for camping and stuff will be enough to counterbalance that. Furthermore, your wife’s ethnic background is irrelevant now that she has effectively cut off everything that made her a Swede. She could just as well hang around in Kabul dressed in potato bag with a grille over her face. And your point about Saudi Arabia is a straw man argument as (1) this is apparently not where your family calme from and (2) there are plenty of other Muslim states. Why don’t you move to Pakistan for example? The waifu would probably be thrilled by the prospect of living like a real Muslim woman in a real Muslim country — as opposed to doing it as a dilettante in America?

    By the way I am concerned like you are by the toxicity of the surrounding culture on our children. But I just don’t believe that a system of thought designed for desert camel herders one millenium and a half ago has any relevance to solve this problem. Of any other problem for that matter.

    Not that I am more convinced by Guru AaronB’s pompous pontificating.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Daniel Chieh
  169. @AaronB

    in important ways I am quite humble.

    This is called shooting a bullet in one’s own foot.

  170. AaronB says:
    @Guillaume Tell

    Not that I am more convinced by Guru AaronB’s pompous pontificating.

    Come, you love my pompous pontificating :)

    And desert camel herder religion is just the bracing tonic our effete times need.

    Get with the program Guillaume.

  171. @Guillaume Tell

    If it wasn’t you, who was it, then?

    You’re probably thinking of German_reader

    • LOL: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
  172. Talha says:

    dying of cancer at 42

    People die earlier from it – some consider it a gift because it gives them a heads up so they can change their priorities (this brother died during this Ramadan):

    Since you sometimes enjoy my stories, there is another one. It looks to be from a weak transmission, so it’s not reliable, but it is a good lesson:
    One day the Angel of Death entered upon the court of King Solomon (pbuh) in the form of a man. During his visit, he started paying attention to a certain man and staring at him. The man noticed this and asked Solomon (pbuh) who that newcomer was. When Solomon (pbuh) told him that it was the Angel of Death, the man was horrified. He asked Solomon (pbuh) to use his control over the winds to fly him to a land far away like India, and so King Solomon (pbuh) did him this favor. The next day the Angel entered upon Solomon’s court once again and the King (pbuh) asked him; “You were staring at one of my companions intently yesterday, why?” The Angel replied; “Yes, I was surprised to find him here since I was ordered to take his soul later today in India.”

    I don’t think the men/boys outings for camping and stuff will be enough to counterbalance that.

    Of course not, that’s just the side stuff for fun and bonding; it’s their connection to the traditional scholars and attendance of the spiritual gatherings and the lessons about refining their souls that is the meat of it.

    now that she has effectively cut off everything that made her a Swede.

    That’s your opinion. Her parents used to take her and her sisters every summer to Sweden to visit cousins when they were little; she still loves to bake Swedish sweets, decorate our house with Swedish items, can still manage semi-conversational Swedish, etc.

    She could just as well hang around in Kabul dressed in potato bag with a grille over her face.

    Why would she want to do that anymore than you want to hang upside down from a light post in Athens?

    Why don’t you move to Pakistan for example?

    Because Pakistan is not a place she wants to move to – nor do I mean to force the issue.

    The waifu would probably be thrilled by the prospect of living like a real Muslim woman in a real Muslim country

    The wife is plenty happy to be around her people and the culture she grew up around. She is in a prime position to help invite her people to the religion – she already helped guide her younger sister. Why do you think she is studying to be a Muslim scholar?

    Now we have discussed moving if; a) pressure on Muslims becomes too much in the US and our teachers tell us to leave and b) if we see bad signs in our children that they are going way off track – as of now (alhamdulillah) they are exerted more influence on their non-Muslim friends than the other way around. The places we have considered would be places like Alexandria (which we’ve visited before), Amman, Sharjah and some others.

    But I just don’t believe that a system of thought designed for desert camel herders one millenium and a half ago has any relevance to solve this problem.

    Sure, no problem, you are of course entitled to your opinion. But it’s just your opinion. Obviously other people feel otherwise, like this sister:

    Or sister Lauren Booth (the sister in law of Tony Blair) also converted to Islam after a trip to Palestine and the generosity she experienced there as a guest of poverty-stricken people:

    This was the photo that inspired her to visit Palestine:

    You don’t like what Islam has to offer which is fine, but to assume it has nothing to offer to anybody else because it doesn’t appeal to your tastes is silly. People don’t come to Islam because they want some worldly benefit – not in this age anyway; they are checking out of post-modern materialist culture and want a tradition that will not compromise its principles with the current trends.

    I don’t mind if you want to oppose Islam, but if you do – do it well. You don’t do yourself any favors by buying into your own propaganda. If you feel it is an existential threat, then not knowing your enemy or being dismissive of his strengths is failure at basic-level Sun Tzu. If you feel it is not an existential threat, no problems either…everything will be just peachy.

    Here, I’ll help you get started, read Belloc’s assessment of Islam’s strengths and the current West’s weaknesses – especially the sub-chapter “On the Possibility of Islamic Resurgence”:
    “Islam – Scourge of the West”
    The Essential Belloc: A Prophet for Our Times

    Peace.

  173. @Talha

    Lauren Booth

    Lauren Booth ‘stole my husband – and destroyed my home’: Distraught wife accuses activist of betraying her new faith

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2323168/Lauren-Booth-stole-husband–destroyed-home-Distraught-wife-accuses-activist-betraying-new-faith.html

    When Britain sends their people, they are not sending their best.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    , @Talha
  174. @Hyperborean

    Thank you — I was about to recall that story.

  175. @Guillaume Tell

    I am sorry for your friend the naturopath doctor — but, man, dying of cancer at 42? I would be very wary regarding his medical theories. It seems that his naturopathic snake oil did not work that great after all.

    To be totally fair, some cancers are like being hit with a truck. There’s not that much that you can do about it. I would probably be dubious of his remedies, all the same.

    • Agree: Guillaume Tell
  176. @Talha

    Talha these people have mental issues. That Blairite woman has obvious problems (who would not, being the system in law of that POS Tony Blair?). When you are sick in your head, you do strange things like converting to Islam so you can wear a bag on your head.

    The virtue signaling side of things should not be discounted either. But another key aspect is the uprooting in the modern world. Look I do sympathize with your plight. Your parents transplanted you as a child into an alien culture, and now you are split between your roots and the place where you grew up, went to school, made friends, etc. This is what the “invade the world, invite the world” sick paradigm creates: uprooted individuals all over the world ahove which the Eternal Jew reigns supreme.

    I certainly don’t see Islam as an existential threat, nearly as much as the judaized/Protestant toxic culture that is dominant today. I think Islam is a self-limiting scourge as it is limited to populations in the low-middle IQ range — with some exceptions shall I add immediately, like yourself evidently.

    All of this only confirms my already extremely strong anti-immigration stance. You are in a way a living testimony to the havoc it wreaks upon both sides of the immigration flow.

    I like Belloc, he said many perspicacious things about the Jews in particular. On the other hand you have to remember that in his time, the Muslim world was weak, defeated, humiliated and fragmented. And more importantly that was before the Quincy agreements and the dependency on Saudi oil. Things are very different now.

    By the way you often refer to “the West”, just as if such an abstract category was actually a thing. It is too generic to be operative in any way. Where do you put Hungary? How about Poland? Mexico? Switzerland? What you mean is probably the US and its client states (UK, France, Germany, Italy, Japan for the most important ones). And I understand that as an American yourself you rightly view this world as highly degenerate. And yet, you can’t even get your own wife to leave it! Everything is lost Talha, we live in a very sorry era indeed.

    Best

    • Replies: @Talha
  177. @Greasy William

    Yeah I liked that guy. I hope my frequent calls to murder hundreds of millions of his coreligionists isn’t what drove him off.

    I guess that was indeed you, after all :)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  178. @Guillaume Tell

    Greasy is a very important commenter, without him we’d never know the answer to the important question of “who would Greasy bang?”

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    , @Talha
  179. @reiner Tor

    I certainly would not want to miss out on that!

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  180. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    Ah yes – British scandals – yummy, yummy! Well I guess that’s one thing the island nation won’t lose if it goes Muzzie – who says we don’t accommodate local culture!

    When Britain sends their people, they are not sending their best.

    If that’s true, then not to worry, because neither are we apparently…

    Peace.

  181. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor

    “who would Greasy bang?”

    If only there was a way to translate that into Latin for the new imperial crest…hmmm…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Anon
  182. Talha says:
    @Guillaume Tell

    mental issues…obvious problems…sick in your head…so you can wear a bag on your head…virtue signaling

    As I said, it is completely fine if you want to dismiss the reasons why people convert. Neither were these reasons even hinted at by Sr. Lauren or the other sister or any other convert I have ever, ever come across. All converts I have ever talked to have never converted to Islam because of the details and rules; they adopt the details and rules because it answers the big picture for them. Pew already did a survey on this – only a few people convert because the rules and practices appeal to them – you are putting the cart before the horse:

    But again, totally fine – I’m not trying to convince you of the correctness of Islamic doctrine – you have already made your decision and you can choose to dismiss the reasons why people convert as well. I don’t mind that either.

    and now you are split between your roots and the place where you grew up

    But I’m not though; I’m totally fine in my American skin and considering myself American. I consider Americans “my people” – as explained by Dr. Omar Mahmood (who studied with the B’Alawi scholars in Yemen and was a roommate of mine at UCLA):

    I plan to stay and be absorbed into the American milieu. I’m even a volunteer on the technology planning commission for my municipality, a position that the mayor asked me in a letter to fill for another year. My kids are half-white, and I do not care whether they eventually just become barely Pakistani due to their successive mixing with the local population if none of them ever understand a word of Urdu in the future, etc. You guys are the ones that care about racial purity. The only thing I care about is that the religion propagates in my progeny until the Day of Judgement – religious purity.

    Now, if my people decide to boot me out, no problems, I will obey the law (though without much enthusiasm) – the Prophet (pbuh) was also booted out by his people. When he was being forced out, he addressed the city of Makkah:
    “How good you are as a land and how dear you are to my heart! Had your people not forced me out of you, I would have never come out and left you and would have never resided in any other city but you.” – reported in Tirmidhi

    populations in the low-middle IQ range

    Totally fine, the Qur’an states we have been made an “Ummatan Wasatan” – a nation of the middle way. It is surprising how that plays out in everything from geography, intelligence, economic development, etc. Of course, high-IQ societies have their own serious issues, so I’m not bought on the “high-IQ is a good thing in all circumstances” position. High-IQ societies tend to become the least religious (and of course there are issues associated with that):

    extremely strong anti-immigration stance.

    Sure, I’ve never been a proponent of open borders – if nations want to close them, fine with me – let the people decide what they feel is best for them.

    Things are very different now.

    As he predicted. The question is, was he right in his assessments of strengths and weaknesses? And what lessons can be drawn.

    Where do you put Hungary?

    I’m confused by this too – I’m not sure. I mean they are obviously shutting down their borders, but they also have a PRIDE parade in Budapest. I personally wouldn’t put Mexico or South America into the “West”. But it is confusing.

    And yet, you can’t even get your own wife to leave it!

    But there’s a reason. I don’t think you are getting it though. This is her land, these are her people – she intends to stay and fight the good fight as do I. I mentioned in another thread, people like myself and others that belong to traditional (especially Sufi-related) Islam are here and we have established a spiritual beachhead. We do not plan to retreat unless we are given orders to.

    Everything is lost Talha, we live in a very sorry era indeed.

    Just because the current is against you, it is no excuse to go with the flow – it is time to swim harder. Despondency is haram.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AaronB
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  183. DFH says:
    @Talha

    Quem Greasy perfutuat?

  184. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    PG version: Quem amavit oleosus?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @German_reader
    , @Anon
  185. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    sick in your head

    Normally I wouldn’t comment on this sort of thing but the Booth woman seems a little “touched”, to be mild. If I moved in upper-class British Muslim circles, which I don’t, I would try to steer clear of her.

  186. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    High-IQ societies tend to become the least religious (and of course there are issues associated with that):

    This is not quite correct. Japan for instance is a highly religious and spiritual society although this is not widely understood in the West, and China and East Asia in general retain far more traces of spirituality than the lower IQ West.

    And I would submit the West is a highly religious society – the Left is a religion, and Science with a capital S is a religion.

    The West will very soon have a unified State Religion – Leftism, with a sub-branch of Science (transhumanism, nutrition and health allowing us to live forever), and it will engage in religious wars based on this religion.

    Just because the current is against you, it is no excuse to go with the flow – it is time to swim harder. Despondency is haram.

    He is still a materialist. On other threads he still tries to explain the world in terms of genetics etc – the usual illogical materialist nonsense. He cannot not despair at the moment.

    But I suspect this one will not remain long a materialist. He has a spark – even if very tiny at the moment.

    • Replies: @Talha
  187. According to Google Translate, bang is “bang” in Latin. So I changed the wording to get a few results.

    quem pinguibus miscebitur

    quam pinguibus esset irrumabo

    There were some more.

    Each of these is probably a mistranslation, which would make them ideal for our multicultural diverse group of autistic misfits.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  188. @reiner Tor

    Each of these is probably a mistranslation

    Horrible mistranslations, doesn’t make any sense (e.g. if “pinguibus” is supposed to stand for “Greasy” it would have to be “pinguis”).
    DFH’s suggestion seems pretty good to me.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  189. Talha says:
    @Anon

    Works for me!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon
  190. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    This is not quite correct. Japan

    Japanese responded with 10% – maybe they asked the wrong question or it is not understood the same as in the Western context…not sure.

    He is still a materialist.

    I have noticed many. many Christians are in their framework of thinking – but with a cultural veneer of Christianity. At least Thor was able to recognize the cultural Christianity aspect.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  191. @Anon

    amavit is past tense, doesn’t fit.

    • Replies: @DFH
  192. DFH says:
    @German_reader

    Yes, it should be ‘amet’, although I still think that is a bowlderisation of Greasy’s thought

    • Replies: @Anon
  193. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Right, Japanese spirituality is non theistic so isn’t really recognized as such by the West, it’s also non systematic, but once you engage with the culture you begin to see how non materialistic it really is.

    I found myself surprised.

  194. Dan Hayes says:
    @Greasy William

    Greasy William:

    One thing Ali never apologized for was his earlier merciless pummeling of Floyd Patterson for being a Christian! Actually “pummeling” is too mild a word for what essentially was sanctioned assault.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
  195. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    How stupid, I have used the wrong tense. Should be “amabit”or “amaret”.

  196. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    a bowlderisation

    Hence my note when introducing it…

    I had intended “amabit”, but that indicates a certainty lacking in Greasy’s case.

    My Latin is not that good but I would prefer “amaret” (does that need a subordinate clause?) though “amet” will do I suppose.

    • Replies: @DFH
  197. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    See correction (198)– d–n typos!

  198. DFH says:
    @Anon

    I think it is an instance of the potential subjunctive, and so does not need a clause or particle. Since the action is not in the (potential) past, I do not see a reason for it to be the imperfect subjunctive

    • Replies: @German_reader
  199. @DFH

    Since the action is not in the (potential) past, I do not see a reason for it to be the imperfect subjunctive

    But wouldn’t amaret be an irrealis (like in a conditional clause Si Greasy futueret… “If Greasy banged”)? I think anon 298′s point is that the prospect of Greasy actually having intercourse with all those celebrities is rather remote…

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  200. @German_reader

    Thank you guys for discussing this highly useful topic!

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
  201. @reiner Tor

    That’s what true gentlemen talk about!

  202. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor

    Yeah – sorry for kickstarting it. I thought it was a relatively simple thing, but I don’t know Latin.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  203. @German_reader

    Horrible mistranslations

    A couple years ago in Hungary in the Buda Castle they installed a couple huge bilingual posters, in both Hungarian and English. The English “translation” was in each case the following: “Same in English.”

    You can see the posters here:

    https://444.hu/2016/04/26/a-budai-var-epitesen-derult-ki-hogy-tobb-dolog-is-ugy-van-angolul-hogy-same-in-english

    • LOL: German_reader
  204. @Talha

    “Romanes eunt domus”

  205. @Dan Hayes

    Beating up Floyd was Ali’s job, but Ali went way beyond that. Floyd injured his shoulder early in the fight and couldn’t even defend himself. Ali could have easily ended it right there but he deliberately carried Floyd (a man that Ali outweighed by over 20 lbs and was 2 inches taller than) into the later rounds so he could continue to taunt Floyd and inflict damage on him. He knew that Floyd would never quit no matter what.

    I like Ali but the way he tortured Floyd was very cruel and bordered on psychopathic.

    In contrast, super villain Sonny Liston really really really didn’t want to hurt Floyd when they fought, especially the 2nd time. And Sonny was a genuinely awful person.

    In Ali’s defense, Floyd did say that Ali was the first person to come and visit him in the hospital after the fight. Floyd said that his back pain at the time was so severe that he started hoping he would just die and that Ali’s visit really cheered him up and helped him pull through.

    Joe Frazier never forgave Ali for the way Ali treated him during their careers. When Ali developed Parkinsons, Frazier would proudly tell people “I did that to him.” Vicious, but definitely understandable with the way Ali had treated Joe.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    , @reiner Tor
  206. Talha says:

    Also, on Turkey…

    Poz vs Muzantium update:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/amnesty/status/1012772184719282177

    Bwahahahahaha! MashaAllah!

    Peace.

  207. Dan Hayes says:
    @Greasy William

    Greasy William:

    Thanks.

    I knew that Ali was bad but didn’t realize really how bad until you supplied all the sordid details.

    What I find exasperating was that at death Ali had turned into a quasi folk hero, even among the white populace.

  208. @Greasy William

    In Ali’s defense, Floyd did say that Ali was the first person to come and visit him in the hospital after the fight.

    It might have cheered Floyd up, but what was Ali’s motive for visiting him? Was it not simply to see for himself one more time how badly he had beaten him, to take delight in Floyd’s state? That’s what I’d assume.

    It’d be different if there was no other way for Ali to win. Then he could sincerely just visit his opponent in the hospital to wish him getting well.

  209. Well he told Floyd that Floyd was the most courageous man he’d ever been in the ring with, and said he was glad that Floyd hadn’t been at his best because otherwise the result may have been different. Obviously Ali was pouring it on but Floyd said it meant a lot to him, especially at that moment.

    Patterson was super sensitive to being called a coward. After the 2nd Liston fight, Frank Sinatra had ended their long time friendship because he felt that Floyd had quit against Liston out of sheer terror. Floyd was so ashamed of himself that he started wearing a fake beard when he left home because he didn’t want to be recognized in public. That was why he refused to give up against Ali even at the risk of his own life, he didn’t want to be called a coward again.

    5 or so years later when Ali was doing the color commentary on a Patterson fight, Ali was effusive in his praise of Patterson. Ali even said that if Patterson had used his current style (Patterson changed his style after the 2nd Liston slaughter), he would have beaten Liston when they had fought.

    After Ali and Floyd rematched, Ali again offered Floyd public and effusive praise. He even offered Floyd a 3rd fight, even though that would do nothing for Ali, just to give Floyd one last payday.

    Whereas Ali’s relationships with Terrell, Liston, Foreman, Norton and especially Frazier were always pretty bad, even years later, it seemed like Floyd and Ali liked and grew to like and respect each other.

    I prefer to think of Ali as basically a good man who also wasn’t very intelligent and was often too in love with himself to care, or even realize, how his actions effected others. Also he just had a serious mean streak, but he was a pro fighter so I don’t know how much we can hold that against him.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  210. @Greasy William

    Okay that’s a good explanation.

  211. @Dmitry

    And I take the same view towards Democrats versus republicans as I do on Yankees versus Red Sox: CAN’T THEY BOTH LOSE? ;)

  212. LatW says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Didn’t mean to attack your women, btw. There are a lot of competitive Chinese female engineering leaders (not token at all). Many are recent arrivals, Chinese educated, from Fudan University and such (it’s all supposed to be a global talent pool, but still, my point holds since they represent competition for white and Jewish males…). Also, some heads of HR and EAs at pretty hot Silicon Valley startups.

  213. @Talha

    Totally fine, the Qur’an states we have been made an “Ummatan Wasatan” – a nation of the middle way. It is surprising how that plays out in everything from geography, intelligence, economic development, etc. Of course, high-IQ societies have their own serious issues, so I’m not bought on the “high-IQ is a good thing in all circumstances” position. High-IQ societies tend to become the least religious (and of course there are issues associated with that):

    Interesting observation, thanks.

    I will give acknowledge that the Muslims have maxed out religious fervor * IQ/competence the best of all civilizations. (Barring minor sects like Mormons, etc.).

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